>>The Cube presents UI Path Forward five. Brought to you by UI Path. >>Hi everybody. We're back at UI path forward to five. This is Dave Ante with Dave Nicholson. Derek Mu is here. He's automation product line lead for Merck. Thank you, by the way, for, you know, all you guys do, and thank you Dave for having in the, in the, in the vaccine area, saving our butts. And Bill Engel is back on the cube. He's the director at cgi. Guys, good to see you again. >>Good to see you. Thank >>You. So Merrick, Wow, it's been quite a few years for you guys. Take us through Derek, what's happening in sort of your world that's informing your automation strategy? >>Well, Dave, I mean as you know, we just came out of the pandemic. We actually have quite a few products like Gabriel Antiviral Pill. Obviously we worked, you know, continue to drive our products through a difficult time. But, you know, is during these can last few years that, you know, we've accelerated our journey in automation. We're about four years plus in our journey, you know, so just like the theme of this conference we're we're trying to move towards, you know, bigger automations, transformational change, continue to drive digital transformation in our company. >>Now Bill, you've been on before, but CGI tell people about the firm. It's not computer graphics imaging. >>Sure. No, it's, it's definitely not. So cgi, we're a global consultancy about 90,000 folks across the world. We're a, we're both a product company and a services company. So we have a lot of different, you know, software products that we deliver to our clients, such as CGI Advantage, which is a state local government EER P platform. And so outside of that, we, my team does automation and so we wrap automation around R IP and deliver that to our clients. >>So you guys are automation pros, implementation partners, right? So, so let's go back. Yep. Derek said four years I think. Yep. Right, You're in. So take us through what was the catalyst, how did you get started? Obviously it was pre pandemic, so it's interesting, a lot of companies pre pandemic gave lip service to digital transformation. Sounds like you guys already started your journey, but I'll come back to that. But take us back to the Catalyst four years ago. Why automation? We'll get into why UI path, >>Right. So I, I would say it started pretty niche in our company. Started first in our finance area. Of course, you know, we were looking in technology evaluating different companies, Blue Prism, ui P. Ultimately we chose UI p did it on-prem to start to use automation in sort of our invoice processing, sort of our financial processes, right? And then from there, after it was really when the pandemic hit, that's when sort of we all went to remote work. That's when the team, the COE continued to scale up, especially during pandemic. We were trying to automate more and more processes given the fact that more and more of our workers are remote, they reprocesses. How, how do you do events? You know, part of our livelihood is, is meeting with engaging with customers. Customers in this case is, are doctors and physicians, right? How do you engage with them digitally? How do you, you know, you know, a lot of the face to face contact now have to kind of shift to more digital, digital way. And so automation was a way to kind of help accelerate that, help facilitate that. >>You, you, I think you mentioned COE as in center of excellence. Yep. So, so describe your approach to implementing automation. It's, that sounds like when you say center, it sounds like something is centralized as, as opposed to a bunch of what we've been hearing a lot about citizen developers. What does that interaction >>Look like? We do have both. I would say in the beginning was more decentralized, but over time we, over the few years as, as we built more and more bots, we're now at maybe somewhere between four to 500 bots. We now have sort of internal to the company functional verticals, right? So there's an animal health, we have an animal health function. So there's, there's a team building engaging with the animal health business to build animal health box. There's human health, which is what I work on as well as hr, finance, manufacturing, research. And so internally there's engagement leads, one of the engagement leads that interact with the business. Then when there's an engineering squads that help build and design, develop and support and maintain those as well as sort of a DevOps team that supports the platform and maintains all the bot infrastructure. >>So you started in finance common story, right? I'm sure you hear this a lot Belt, How did you decide what to target? Was it, was it process driven decision? Was it, was it data oriented? Like some kind of combination? How did you decide, Do you remember? Or do you, could you take >>Us back to Oh yeah. So for, for cgi how we started to engage with MER is, you know, we, we do a lot of other business with Merck. We work on all their different business lines and we, we understand the business process. So we, we knew where there was potential for automation. So we brought those ideas to Merck and, and really kind of landed there and helped them realize the value from automation from that standpoint. And then from there the journey just continued to expand, you know, looking for those use cases that, that, you know, fit the mold for, for, for RPA to start. And now the evolution is to go to broader hyper automation. >>And, and was it CFO led into the finance department and then, or was it sort of more bottoms >>Up? Yeah, so, so I think it started in, in finance and, and, but we actually really started out in the business line. So out in regulatory clinical, that's, that's where we, we have the life science expertise that are embedded. And so I partnered with them to come up with, hey, here's a real solution we could do to help streamline, say submission archiving. So when, when submissions come back from the fda, they need to be archived into, you know, the, their system of record. So that's, those are the types of use cases that, that we helped automate. >>Okay. Cause you're saying a human had to sort physically archive that and you were able to sort of replicate that. Okay. And you started with software robots, obviously rpa and now you're expanding into, we we're hearing from UI this the platform message. How does that coincide Derek, with what you guys are doing? Are you sort of adding platform? What aspects of the platform are, are you adding? >>Yeah, no, I mean we are, we are on-premise, right? So we have the platform, but some of the cool things we just had, another colleague of mine presented earlier today. Some of the cool things we're, we're doing ephemeral infrastructure. So infrastructure as code, which essentially means instead of having all these dedicated bot machines, that that, you know, cuz these bots only in some cases run 10 minutes and they're done. So we're, we're soon of doing all on demand, you know, start up a server, run the bot when it's finished, you know, kill the server. So we only pay for the servers that we use, which allows us to save a whole >>Lot of money. Serverless bots. So you, but you're doing that OnPrem, so you >>No, >>No, but >>That's >>Cloud. We, >>We, we we're doing it OnPrem, but our, our bot machines that actually run the, let's say SAP process, right? We spin that machine up, it's on the cloud, it runs it finish, Let's say it's processed in one hour and then when it's done, we kill that machine. So we only play for that one hour usage of that bot machine. >>Okay. So you mentioned SAP earlier you mentioned Blue Prism when you probably looked at other competitors too. You pull the Gartner Magic quadrant, blah, blah, you know, with the way people, you know, evaluate technology, but SAP's got a product. Why UI path mean? Is it that a company like SAP two narrow for their only sap you wanted to apply it other ways? Maybe they weren't even in the business that back then four years ago they probably weren't. Right? But I'm curious as to how the decision was made for UiPath. >>Well, I think you hit it right on the nail. You know, SAP sort of came on a little later and they're specific to sort of their function, right? So UiPath for us is the most flexible tool can interact by UI to our sales and marketing systems, to, to workday, to service Now. It's, it cuts across every function that we have in the company as well as you're the most mature. I mean, you're the market leader, right? So Right. Definitely you, you continue to build upon those capabilities and we are exploring the new capabilities, especially being announced today. >>And what do you see Bill in the marketplace? Are you, are you kind of automation tool agnostic? Are you more sort of all in on? I >>Would say we are, we are agnostic as a company, but obviously as part of a, as an automation practice lead, you know, I want to deliver solutions to my clients that are gonna benefit them as a whole. So looking at UI path, you know, that this platform is, it covers the end to end spectrum of, of automation. So I can go really into any use case and be able to provide a solution that, that delivers value. And so that's, that's where I see the value in UI path and that's why CGI is, is a customer as well. We automate our internal processes. We actually have, we just launched probably SALT in the, in the market last week, expanded partnership with UiPath. We launched CGI, Excel 360. That's our fully managed service around automation. We host our clients whole UI path infrastructure and bots. It's completely hands off to them and they just get the value outta >>Automation. Nice, nice. Love >>It. Derek, you mentioned, you mentioned this ephemeral infrastructure. Yeah. Sounds like it's also ethereal possibility possibly you're saying, you, you're saying you have processes that are running on premises, right? But then you reach out to have an automation process run that's happening off pre and you're, and you're sort of, >>It's on the cloud, so, so yeah, so we have a in-house orchestrator, so we don't, we're not using your sort of on the cloud orchestrator. So, so we brought it in-house for security reasons. Okay. But we use, you know, so inside the vpn, you know, we have these cloud machines that run these automations. So, so that's, that's the ephemeral side of the, of the >>Infrastructure. But is there a financial angle to that in terms of when you're spinning these things up, are you, is it a, is it a pay by the drink or by the, by the CPU >>Hours, if you can imagine like we, you know, like I mentioned where somewhere between four to 500 bots and every bot has a time slot to run and takes a certain amount of time. And so that's hundreds and hundreds of bot machines that we in the old days have to have to buy and procure and, you know, staff and support and maintain. So in this new model, and we're just beginning to kind of move from pilot into implementation, we're moving all, all of bots this in ephemeral infrastructure, right? So these, okay, these machines, these bot machines are, you know, spun up. They run the, they, they run their automation and then they spin >>Down. But just to be clear, they're being spun up on physical infrastructure that is in your >>Purview and they spun up on aws. Yeah. Okay. And then they spin down. Okay, got >>It. Got it. Interesting. Four >>To 500 bots. You know, Daniel one point play out this vision of a bot chicken in every pot, I called it a bot for every employee. Is that where you're headed or is that kind of in this new ephemeral world, not necessary, it's like maybe every employee has access to an ephemeral bot. How, how are you thinking about that? >>That's a good question. So obviously the, the four to 500 is a mix of unattended bonds versus attended bonds, right? That, that we also have a citizen developer, sort of a group team. We support that as well from a coe. So, you know, we see the future as a mix. There's, there's a spectrum of, we are the professional development team. There's also, we support and nurture the personal automation and we provide the resources to help them build smaller scale automations that help, you know, reduce the, you know, the mundaneness and the hours of their own tasks. But you know, for us, we want to focus more and more on building bigger and bigger transfer transformational automations that really drive process efficiencies and, and savings. >>And what's the, what's the business impact been? You mentioned savings and maybe there's other sort of productivity. How do you measure the benefit, the ROI and, and >>Quantify that we, you know, I, I don't, I don't profess I don't think we have all the right answers, but yeah, simple metrics like number of hours saved or other sort of excitement sort of in like an nps, internal NPS between the different groups that we engage. But we definitely see automation demand coming from our, our functional teams going up, driving up. So it's, it's continued to be a hot area and hopefully we, we can, you know, like, like what the key message and theme of this, of this conference. Essentially we want to take and build upon the, the good work that we've done in terms of rpa and we want to drive it more towards digital transformation. >>So Bill, what are you seeing across the, your customer base in terms of, of, of roi? I'm not looking for percentages there. I'm sure they're off the charts, but in terms of, you know, you can optimize for fast payback, you know, maybe lower the denominator, you know, or you can optimize for, you know, net benefit over time, right? You know, what are you seeing? What are customers after they want fast payback and little quick hits? Or are they looking for sort of a bigger enterprise wide impact? >>Yeah, I think it's, it's the latter. It's that larger impact, right? Obviously they, you know, they want an roi and just depending upon the use case, that's gonna vary in terms of the, the benefits delivered. And a lot of our clients, depending on the industry, so in in life sciences it may be around, you know, compliance like GXP compliance is huge. And so that may may not be much of a time saver, but it ensures that they're, they're running their processes and they're being compliant with, you know, federal standards. So that's, that's one aspect to it. But you know, to, you know, a bank, they're looking to reduce their overall costs and and so on. But yeah, I think, I think the other, the other part of it is, you know, impacting broader business processes. So taking that top down approach versus kind of bottom up, you know, doing ta you know, the ones you choose the tasks is not as impactful as looking at broader across the entire business process and seeing how we can impact >>It. Now, Derek, when you guys support a citizen developer, how does that work? So, hey, I got this task I want to automate, I'm gonna go write a, you know, software robot. I'm gonna go do an automation. Do I just do it and then throw her to the defense? You guys, you guys send me a video on how to do it. Hold my hand. How's that work? >>Yeah, I mean, good question. So, so we obviously direct them to the UI path Academy, get some training. We also have some internal training materials to how to build a bot sort of internal inside Merck. We, we go through, we have writeups and SOPs on using the right framework for automations, using the right documentation, PDD kind of materials, and then ultimately how do we deploy bot inside the MER ecosystem. But I, I, maybe I'll just add, I think you asked the point about ROI before. Yeah. I'll also say because we're, we're a pharmaceutical company. I think one of the other key metrics is actually time saved, right? So if, if, if we have a bot that helps us get through the clinical process or even the getting a, a label approved faster, even if it's eight days saved, that's eight days of a product that can get out to the market faster to, to our patients and, and healthcare professionals. And that's, that, that's immeasurable benefit. >>Yeah, I bet if you compress that ELAP time of, of getting approval and so forth. All right guys, we've gotta go. Thanks so much. Congratulations on all the success and appreciate you sharing your story. Thank >>You so much. Appreciate it. You're welcome. >>Appreciate it. All right. Thank you for watching this Dave Ante for Dave Nicholson, The cubes coverage, two day coverage. We're here in day one, UI path forward, five. We'll be right back right after the short break. Awesome. >>Great.

>>Welcome back to the cubes, continuous coverage of AWS reinvent 2021 live in Las Vegas. I'm Lisa Martin pleased to be here in person. We are actually with AWS and its massive ecosystem of partners running. One of the industry's largest and most important hybrid tech events of the year. We've got two life sets over a hundred guests to remote studios. I'm pleased to welcome two guests from Laos here with me. Next, Derek is here, the VP and director of digital modernization and David chow, the director of cloud capabilities, Derek and David. Welcome to the program. Thanks for having us great to be here in person. Isn't it? >>Absolutely. Last year we missed out. So if we've got to get it all in this week. >>Exactly and well, this is day one and the amount of people that are in here, there's a lot of noise in the background. I'm sure the audience can hear it is, is really nice. AWS has done such a great job of getting us all in here. Nice and safely. So let's go ahead and start. Light is coming off a very strong Q3. When we look at the things that have happened, nearly all defense and classified customers are engaged in digital modernization efforts. We've seen so much acceleration of that in the last 20 months, but let's talk about some of the current challenges Derek that customers are facing across operations sustainment with respect to the need to modernize. >>Sure, sure thing. Um, so over the past two years, we spent a better part of all that time, trying to really figure out what are our customers' hardest problems. And, you know, that's across the health vertical, the DOD vertical, uh, the Intel vertical, uh, you name it. We spent a lot of time trying to figure it out. And we kept coming up on three reoccurring themes, one, which is the explosion of data. There's so much data being generated across our customer's environments. Um, there's not enough human brain power to deal with it. All right. So we need to be able to apply technology in a way that reduces the cognitive burden on operators who must do operations and sustainment to get to a business outcome. Uh, the second one and most importantly for us is advanced cyber threats. We've all heard about the colonial pipeline hack. >>We've heard about solar winds. The scary part about that is what about the hacks that we don't know about? Right. And that's something that here at lighthouse, we're really focused on applying technology, cyber AIML in a way that we can detect when someone's in our environments or in our customer environments. And then we can opt out, obviously, um, do some remediation and get them out of our environment. So mission operations are not compromised. And then lastly, customer environments are heterogeneous. You have cloud, you have on-premise infrastructure. Uh, you have edge devices, IOT devices. It's very difficult to be able to do management and orchestration over all these different devices, all the different platforms that are out there. So working in concert with AWS, we build a solution to be able to do just that, which we'll talk about a little later, David, anything else that you want to, >>We talked about the explosion of data, the cybersecurity landscape changing dramatically, and the customers needing to be able to modernize and leverage the power of technology. Yeah, >>So our customers, uh, we have basically three areas that we see our customers having challenges in. And one of them, once they get to the cloud, they don't have the transparency on cost and usage, right. Uh, when you get the engineers are excited, the mission is exploded with extra activities. Um, but our customers don't have a sense on where the cost is going and how that relates to their mission, right? So we help them figure out, okay, your, your cost is going up, which is fine because it's applying to your mission and it's helping you actually be more successful than before. Right? And the other area is, uh, they need, uh, a multi-platform strategy that doesn't impact their existing conditions, right? They don't have the practicality or the funding that's required to just rip and replace everything. And you can't do that. You have to maintain your mission. >>If you have to maintain about a lot of critical capability that they already have, but at the same time, figure out how am I going to add the extensions and the new capabilities, right? And we have certain ways that we can do that to allow them to start getting into the cloud, leveraging a lot of additional capability that they never had before, but maintaining the investment that they've done in the past years to maintain their mission success. Right. Uh, and then the third is skill up-skilling. So we found that a lot of people have a hard time. Once we move them into AWS, specifically their operational duties and things change. And there's a big gap there in terms of training, uh, getting familiar with how that impacts their process and methodology, and that that's where we helped them a lot, uh, modify that revolution and how they do that stuff. >>That's excellent. That upskilling is critical, as things are changing so dramatically, we have, you talked about data and the cybersecurity changes Derek. And you know, every company, every branch of the federal is probably a data company or data organization, or if it's not, it has to become one. But the cyber threats are crazy. The things that have been going on in the last 20 months, the acceleration of ransomware, ransomware as a service, you talked about colonial, like we only hear about the big ones, but how many it's no longer a will we get hit by ransomware? Or will we be hacked? It's when, talk to me about some of those, about those challenges and also the need to be able to deliver real-time data as real-time missions are going on in that real-time is now no longer a nice to have. >>Right? So, um, it's a great question. And one of the things that I'll say is there's some studies out there that said 75% of the computing, uh, that will be happening over the next 10 years will be at the edge, right? So we're not going to be able to go at the edge, collect all this data, ship it back to a centralized way to process it. We're not going to be able to do that. What we have to do is take capability that may have been clouded, able push that capability to the edge. Where did that be? AI ML. It could be your mission applications, and we need to be able to exploit data in near real time, um, to which allows us to make mission critical decisions at the point of need. There's not going to be enough time to collect a big swath of data, move it back across a bandwidth that is temporarily constrained. In many cases, we just can't do it that way. So I think moving as much capability to the edge as possible in order for us to be able to make an impact in near real time, that's what we need to do across all of our verticals, not just DOD, but on the healthcare side to the Intel side, you name it. We gotta be able to move capability as far forward as >>Possible. And where Derek with you for a minute, where are those verticals with respect to embracing that, adopting that being ready to be able to take on those technologies? Because culturally, I can imagine, you know, legacy his story, history organizations to change his heart >>Change is hard. Um, and one of the strategies that we've tried to implement within that context is that the legacy systems, the culture that is already out there, we're not just going to be able to turn all of that off, right. We're going to have to make sure that the new capabilities and the legacy systems co-exist. So that's one of the reasons that we have an approach where we use microservices, very much API driven, such that, uh, you know, a mission critical system that may have been online for the last 20 years. We're not just going to turn it off, but what we can do is start to build sidecar capabilities, microservices, to extend that capability of that system without rebuilding it, we can't build our way out of all the technical debt. What we can do is figure out how do we need to extend this capability to get to a mission need and build a microservices. That's very thin. That's very lightweight. And that's how you start to connect the dots between your mission applications, the data, the data centricity that we talked about and other capabilities that need access to data, to be able to effectuate a decision. >>You make it sound so easy. Derek, >>It's certainly not easy, but in working with AWS, we really have taken this forward and we're really deploying, uh, similar capabilities today. Um, so it's really the way that we have to modernize. We have to be able to do it step by step strangle out the old as we bring in the new right. >>So David, let's talk about the AWS partnership, what you guys are doing as the critical importance of being able to help the verticals modernize at speed at scale in real time. Talk to me about what Leidos and AWS are doing together. >>So we work with Adobe very closely, um, for every engagement we have with our customers, we have AWS as our side, we do the reviews of, of their architecture and their approach. We take, we take into account the data strategy of the organization as long along with their cloud, uh, because we found that you have to combine their cloud and their data strategy because of the volumes of data that Derrick talked about, right. That they needed to integrate. And so we come up with a custom strategy and a roadmap for them to adopt that without like Derek said, um, deprecating any old capabilities that currently have any extending it out into, into the cloud so that those areas are what we strive to get them through. And we talk about a lot about the digital enterprise and how that is for us from light of this point of view, we see that as building an API ecosystem for our customer, right? Because the API is really the key. And if you look at companies like Twilio that have an API first approach, that's, what's allowed them to integrate very old technology like telephones into the new cloud, right? So that approach is really the unique approach that was taken with our customers for to see the success that we've seen. >>Well, can you tell me, David's sticking with you for a minute about upscaling. I know that AWS has a big focus on that. It's got a restart program for helping folks that were unemployed during the pandemic or underemployed, but the upskilling, as we talked about during this interview is incredibly important. As things change are changing so quickly, is there any sort of upskilling kind of partnerships that you're doing with AWS that you, >>Uh, so as a partner, we ourselves get a lot of free upskilling and training, uh, as AWS from your partner. Um, but also with our customers, we're able to customize and build specific training plans and curriculums that is targeted specifically for the operators, right? They don't come from a technology background like we do, but they come from a mission background so we can modify and understand what they need to learn and what they don't really need to worry about so much and just target exactly what they need to do. So they can just do their day-to-day jobs and their duties for the mission. >>That's what it's all about. Derek, can you share an example that you think really speaks volumes to light us and AWS together to help customers modernize? >>One thing I like about AWS is that the partnership is what we describe as a deep technical partnership. It's not just transactional. It's not like, Hey, buy this X services and we'll, we'll do this. I have a great example of this year. We kicked off a pilot with an army customer and we actually leveraged AWS pro. So we were literally building a proof of concept together. So in 90 days, what we, what we did was get the customer to understand we're moving more to native AWS services, EMR, uh, to be more specific that you can save money on tons of licensing costs that you otherwise would have had to pay for it. After the pilot was over, we recognized that we will save the government $1.2 million and they have now said, yes, let's go AWS native, which is, uh, which is, uh, a methodology that we still want to stamp out and use continually because the more and more that you adopt that native services, you're going to be able to move faster. Because as soon as you deploy a system, it's already legacy. When you start to do the native services, as things more services come online, we're sort of their glue where to make sure those things that are coming, the services that are AWS are deploying out, we'd bring, we, we then bring that innovation into our customer environment. So saving a customer, the government $1.2 million at a big deal for us. >>It's huge. And I'm sure you there's, that's one of many examples of significant outcomes that you're helping the verticals achieve. Absolutely. >>Yeah. One of our >>Core focuses. That's excellent. And also to do it so quickly and 90 days to be able to show the army a significant savings is a, is a huge, uh, kudos to, to Linus and to AWS. David, talk to me a little bit about the, from a partnership perspective, how do you guys go into a joint organizations together? I imagine one of the most important things is that transparency from the verticals perspective, whether it's DOD or health or Intel, talk to me about that, that kind of unified partnership. And what is the customer and customer experience? I imagine one team. >>Yes. So we go into, we engage with our AWS counterparts at the very beginning of an engagement. So they have their dedicated teams. We have our dedicated teams and we are fully transparent with each other, what the customers are facing. And we both focus on the customer pain points, right? What was really going to drive the customer. Um, and that's how we sort of approach the customer. So the customer sees us as a single team. Uh, we do things like we'll build out what we call the well-architected framework or wafer for short, right. And that allows us to make sure that we're leveraging all the best practices from AWS, from their clients on the commercial side. And we can leverage that into the government, right. They can get a lot of learnings and lessons learned that they don't have to repeat because some of the commercial cupboard companies who are ahead of us have I've done the hard learning, right. And we can incorporate that into their mission and into their operations. >>That's critical because there isn't the time. Right? I think that's one of the things that Penn has taught us is that there isn't there, like we talked about real-time data, there is, it's no longer a nice to have, right. But even from a training and from a deployment perspective that needs to be done incredibly efficiently with, we're talking about probably large groups of people. I imagine with Leidos folks, AWS folks, and the verticals. So that coordination between, I imagine what are probably two fairly culturally aligned organizations is critical. No. >>Yeah. One of the things that we put in places, this idea of bachelors environment, so that means you could be a Leidos person. You could be an AWS person, there's no badge. We're just sitting there, we're here to do good work, to bring value to a customer. And that's something that's really fantastic about our relationship that we do have. So every week we are literally building things together and that's, that's what the government, that's what the public sector folks expect. No, one's not gonna own it all. You have to be able to work together to be able to bring value to our customers across all the verticals that >>I like. That badge list environment, that's critical for organizations to work together. Harmoniously given there's as the data explosion just continues as does the edge explosion and the IOT device explosion more and more complexity comes into the environment. So that Badger less environment I met David from your perspective is really critical to the success of every mission that you're working on. >>Yeah. I mean, I think the badge approaches is critical without it, the existing teams have a hard time building that trust and being, and feeling like we're part of that team, right? Trust is really important in, in mission success. And so when we enter a new arena, we try to get, build that trust as quickly as we can show them that, you know, we're there to help them with their mission. And we're not really there for anything else. So they feel comfortable to share, you know, the really deep pain points that they're not really sharing all the time. And that's what allows Leidos specifically to, to really be successful with them because they share all their skeletons and we don't judge them. Right. We've say, okay, here's your problems. Here's some solutions. And here are the pros and cons and we figure out a solution together, right. It's a really built together sort of mindset that makes us successful. Okay. >>Togetherness as key, last question, guys, what are some of the things that attendees can learn and feel and see, and smell from Leidos this week at reinvent? >>We want to take that one. >>Um, yeah. So with Leidos, um, we're around, we have, uh, various custom, uh, processes with AWS, uh, because of our peer partnership. We have the MSSP that we just got as a launch partner. So there's a lot of interaction that we have with AWS. Um, anytime that AWS sees that there is opportunity for us to talk to a customer and talk to potential vendor, they'll pull us in. So if you guys come by the booth and you need to talk to an SSI, they'll, they'll pull us in and we'll have those conversations. >>Excellent guys, thank you so much for joining me, talking about Leidos, AWS, what you guys are doing together and how you're helping transform government. You make it sound easy. Like I said, Derek, I know that it's not, but it's great to hear the transparency with which guys are all working. Thank you so much for your time. Thank you. Thank you. My pleasure for my guests. I'm Lisa Martin. You're watching the cube, the leader in global live tech coverage.

(upbeat music) >> Welcome to theCUBE Conversation. I'm John Furrier, host of theCUBE here in Palo Alto, California, in our studios. We've got a great conversation around open data link analytics on AWS, two great companies, Ahana and Securonix. Dipti Borkar, Co-founder and Chief Product Officer at Ahana's here. Great to see you, and Derrick Harcey, Chief Architect at Securonix. Thanks for coming on, really appreciate you guys spending the time. >> Yeah, thanks so much, John. Thank you for having us and Derrick, hello again. (laughing) >> Hello, Dipti. >> We had a great conversation around our startup showcase, which you guys were featured last month this year, 2021. The conversation continues and a lot of people are interested in this idea of open systems, open source. Obviously open data lakes is really driving a lot of value, especially with machine learning and whatnot. So this is a key, key point. So can you guys just take a step back before we get under the hood and set the table on Securonix and Ahana? What's the big play here? What is the value proposition? >> Why sure, I'll give a quick update. Securonix has been in the security business. First, a user and entity, behavioral analytics, and then the next generation SIEM platform for 10 years now. And we really need to take advantage of some cutting edge technologies in the open source community and drive adoption and momentum that we can not only bring in data from our customers, that they can find security threats, but also store in a way that they can use for other purposes within their organization. That's where the open data lake is very critical. >> Yeah and to add on to that, John, what we've seen, you know, traditionally we've had data warehouses, right? We've had operational systems move all of their data into the warehouse and those, you know, while these systems are really good, built for good use cases, the amount of data is exploding, the types of data is exploding, different types, semi-structured, structured and so when, as companies like Securonix in the security space, as well as other verticals, look for getting more insights out of their data, there's a new approach that's emerging where you have a data lake, which AWS has revolutionized with S3 and commoditized and there's analytics that's built on top of it. And so we're seeing a lot of good advantages that come out of this new approach. >> Well, it's interesting EC2 and S3 are having their 15th birthday, as they say in Amazon's interesting teenage years, but while I got you guys here, I want to just ask you, can you define the SIEM thing because the SIEM market is exploding, it just changed a little bit. Obviously it's data, event management, but again, as data becomes more proliferating, and it's not stopping anytime soon, as cloud native applications emerge, why is this important? What is this SIEM category? What's it about? >> Yeah, thanks. I'll take that. So obviously SIEM traditionally has been around for about a couple of decades and it really started with first log collection and management and rule-based threat detection. Now what we call next generation SIEM is really the modernization of a security platform that includes streaming threat detection and behavioral analysis and data analytics. We literally look for thousands of different threat detection techniques, and we chained together sequences of events and we stream everything in real time and it's very important to find threats as quickly as possible. But the momentum that we see in the industry as we see massive sizes of customers, we have made a transition from on-premise to the cloud and we literally are processing tens of petabytes of data for our customers. And it's critical that we can adjust data quickly, find threats quickly and allow customers to have the tools to respond to those security incidents quickly and really get the handle on their security posture. >> Derrick, if I ask you what's different about this next gen SIEM, what would you say and what's the big a-ha? What's the moment there? What's the key thing? >> The real key is taking the off the boundaries of scale. We want to be able to ingest massive quantities of data. We want to be able to do instant threat detection, and we want to be able to search on the entire forensic data set across all of the history of our customer base. In the past, we had to make sacrifices, either on the amount of data we ingest or the amount of time that we stored that data. And the really the next generation SIEM platform is offering advanced capabilities on top of that data set because those boundaries are no longer barriers for us. >> Dipti, any comment before I jump into the question for you? >> Yeah, you know, absolutely. It is about scale and like I mentioned earlier, the amount of data is only increasing and it's also the types of information. So the systems that were built to process this information in the past are, you know, support maybe terabytes of data, right? And that's where new technologies open source engines like Presto come in, which were built to handle internet scale. Presto was kind of created at Facebook to handle these petabytes that Derrick is talking about that every industry is now seeing where we're are moving from gigs to terabytes to petabytes. And that's where the analytic stack is moving. >> That's a great segue. I want to ask you while I got you here 'cause this is again, the definitions, 'cause people love to hear the experts weigh in. What is open data lake analytics? How would you define that? And then talk about where Presto fits in. >> Yeah, that's a great question. So the way I define open data lake analytics is you have a data lake on the core, which is, let's say S3, it's the most popular one, but on top of it, there are open aspects, it is open format. Open formats play a very important role because you can have different types of processing. It could be SQL processing, it could be machine learning, it could be other types of workloads, all work on these open formats versus a proprietary format where it's locked and it's open interfaces. Open interfaces that are like SQL, JDBC, ODBC is widely accessible to a range of tools. And so it's everywhere. Open source is a very important part of it. As companies like Securonix pick these technologies for their mission critical systems, they want to know that this is going to be available and open for them for a long period of time. And that's why open source becomes important. And then finally, I would say open cloud because at the end of the day, you know, while AWS is where a lot of the innovations happening, a lot of the market is, there are other clouds and open cloud is something that these engines were built for, right? So that's how I define open data lake analytics. It's analytics with query engines built on top of these open formats, open source, open interfaces and open cloud. Now Presto comes in where you want to find the needle in the haystack, right? And so when you have these deep questions about where did the threat come from or who was it, right? You have to ask these questions of your data. And Presto is an open source distributed SQL engine that allows data platform teams to run queries on their data lakes in a high-performance ways, in memory and on these petabytes of data. So that's where Presto fits in. It's one of the defacto query engines for SQL analysis on the data lake. So hopefully that answers the question, gives more context. >> Yeah, I mean, the joke about data lakes has been you don't want to be a data swamp, right? That's what people don't want. >> That's right. >> But at the same time, the needle in the haystack, it's like big data is like a needle in a haystack of needles. So there's a constant struggle to getting that data, the right data at the right time. And what I learned in the last presentation, you guys both presented, your teams presented at the conference was the managed service approach. Could you guys talk about why that approach works well together with you guys? Because I think when people get to the cloud, they replatform, then they start refactoring and data becomes a real big part of that. Why is the managed service the best approach to solving these problems? >> Yeah and interestingly, both Securonix and Ahana have a managed service approach so maybe Derrick can go first and I can go after. >> Yeah, yeah. I'll be happy to go first. You know, we really have found making the transition over the last decade from off premise to the cloud for the majority of our customers that running a large open data lake requires a lot of different skillsets and there's hundreds of technologies in the open source community to choose from and to be able to choose the right blend of skillsets and technologies to produce a comprehensive service is something that customers can do, many customers did do, and it takes a lot of resources and effort. So what we really want to be able to do is take and package up our security service, our next generation SIEM platform to our customers where they don't need to become experts in every aspect of it. Now, an underlying component of that for us is how we store data in an open standards way and how we access that data in an open standards way. So just like we want our customers to get immediate value from the security services that we provide, we also want to be able take advantage of a search service that is offered to us and supported by a vendor like Ahana where we can very quickly take advantage of that value within our core underlying platform. So we really want to be able to make a frictionless effort to allow our customers achieve value as quick as possible. >> That's great stuff. And on the Ahana side, open data lakes, really the ease of use there, it sounds easy to me, but we know it's not easy just to put data in a data lake. At the end of the day, a lot of customers want simplicity 'cause they don't have the staffing. This comes up a lot. How do you leverage their open source participation and/or getting stood up quickly so they can get some value? Because that seems to be the number one thing people want right now. Dipti, how does that work? How do people get value quickly? >> Yeah, absolutely. When you talk about these open source press engines like Presto and others, right? They came out of these large internet companies that have a lot of distributed systems, engineers, PhDs, very kind of advanced level teams. And they can manage these distributed systems building onto them, add features at large scale, but not every company can and these engines are extremely powerful. So when you combine the power of Presto with the cloud and a managed service, that's where value for everyone comes in. And that's what I did with Ahana is looked at Presto, which is a great engine, but converted it into a great user experience so that whether it's a three person platform team or a five person platform team, they still get the same benefit of Presto that a Facebook gets, but at much, much a less operational complexity cost, as well as the ability to depend on a vendor who can then drive the innovation and make it even better. And so that's where managed services really com in. There's thousands of credit parameters that need to be tuned. With Ahana, you get it out of the box. So you have the best practices that are followed at these larger companies. Our team comes from Facebook, HuBERT and others, and you get that out of the box, with a few clicks you can get up and running. And so you see value immediately, in 30 minutes you're up and running and you can create your data lake versus with Hadoop and these prior systems, it would take months to receive real value from some of these systems. >> Yeah, we saw the Hadoop scar tissue is all great and all good now, but it takes too much resource, standing up clusters, managing it, you can't hire enough people. I got to ask you while you're on that topic, do you guys ship templates? How do you solve the problem of out of the box? You mentioned some out of the box capability. Do you guys think of as recipes, templates? What's your thoughts around what you're providing customers to get up and running? >> Yeah so in the case of Securonix, right, let's say they want to create a Presto cluster. They go into our SAS console. You essentially put in the number of nodes that you want. Number of workers you want. There's a lot of additional value that we built in like caching capabilities if you want more performance, built in cataloging that's again, another single click. And there isn't really as much of a template. Everybody gets the best tuned Presto for their workloads. Now there are certain workloads where you might have interactive in some cases, or you might have transformation batch ETL, and what we're doing next is actually giving you the knobs so that it comes pre tuned for the type of workload that you want to run versus you figuring it out. And so that's what I mean by out of the box, where you don't have to worry about these configuration parameters. You get the performance. And maybe Derrick can you talk a little bit about the benefits of the managed service and the usage as well. >> Yeah, absolutely. So, I'll answer the same question and then I'll tie back to what Dipti asked. Really, you know, our customers, we want it to be very easy for them to ingest security event logs. And there's really hundreds of types of a security event logs that we support natively out of the box, but the key for us is a standard that we call the open event format. And that is a normalized schema. We take any data source in it's normalized format, be a collector device a customer uses on-premise, they send the data up to our cloud, we do streaming analysis and data analytics to determine where the threats are. And once we do that, then we send the data off to a long-term storage format in a standards-based Parquet file. And that Parquet file is natively read by the Ahana service. So we simply deploy an Ahana cluster that uses the Presto engine that natively supports our open standard file format. And we have a normalized schema that our application can immediately start to see value from. So we handle the collection and streaming ingest, and we simply leverage the engine in Ahana to give us the appropriate scale. We can size up and down and control the cost to give the users the experience that they're paying for. >> I really love this topic because one, not only is it cutting edge, but it's very relevant for modern applications. You mentioned next gen SIEMs, SIEM, security information event management, not SIM as memory card, which I think of all the time because I always want to add more, but this brings up the idea of streaming data real-time, but as more services go to the cloud, Derrick, if you don't mind sharing more on this. Share the journey that you guys gone through, because I think a lot of people are looking at the cloud and saying, and I've been in a lot of these conversations about repatriation versus cloud. People aren't going that way. They're going more innovation with his net new revenue models emerging from the value that they're getting out of understanding events that are happening within the network and the apps, even when they're being stood up and torn down. So there's a lot of cloud native action going on where just controlling and understanding is way beyond the, just put stuff into an event log. It's a whole nother animal. >> Well, there's a couple of paradigm shifts that we've seen major patterns for in the last five or six years. Like I said, we started with the safe streaming ingest platform on premise. We use some different open source technologies. What we've done when we moved to the cloud is we've adopted cloud native services as part of our underlying platform to modernize and make our service cloud native. But what we're seeing as many customers either want to focus on on-premise deployments and especially financial institutions and government institute things, because they are very risk averse. Now we're seeing even those customers are realizing that it's very difficult to maintain the hundreds or thousands of servers that it requires on premise and have the large skilled staff required to keep it running. So what we're seeing now is a lot of those customers deployed some packaged products like our own, and even our own customers are doing a mass migration to the cloud because everything is handled for them as a service. And we have a team of experts that we maintain to support all of our global customers, rather than every one of our global customers having their own teams that we then support on the back end. So it's a much more efficient model. And then the other major approach that many of our customers also went down the path of is, is building their own security data lake. And many customers were somewhat successful in building their own security data lake but in order to keep up with the innovation, if you look at the analyst groups, the Gartner Magic Quadrant on the SIEM space, the feature set that is provided by a packaged product is a very large feature set. And even if somebody was put together all of the open source technologies to meet 20% of those features, just maintaining that over time is very expensive and very difficult. So we want to provide a service that has all of the best in class features, but also leverages the ability to innovate on the backend without the customer knowing. So we can do a technology shift to Ahana and Presto from our previous technology set. The customer doesn't know the difference, but they see the value add within the service that we're offering. >> So if I get this right, Derrick, Presto's enabling you guys to do threat detection at a level that you're super happy with as well as giving you the option for give self-service. Is that right for the, is that a kind of a- >> Well, let me clarify our definition. So we do streaming threat detection. So we do a machine learning based behavioral analysis and threat detection on rule-based correlation as well. So we do threat detection during the streaming process, but as part of the process of managing cybersecurity, the customer has a team of security analysts that do threat hunting. And the threat hunting is where Ahana comes in. So a human gets involved and starts searches for the forensic logs to determine what happened over time that might be suspicious and they start to investigate through a series of queries to give them the information that's relevant. And once they find information that's relevant, then they package it up into an algorithm that will do a analysis on an ongoing basis as part of the stream processing. So it's really part of the life cycle of hunting a real time threat detection. >> It's kind of like old adage hunters and farmers, you're farming through the streaming and hunting with the detection. I got to ask you, what would it be the alternative if you go back, I mean, I know cloud's so great because you have cutting edge applications and technologies. Without Presto, where would you be? I mean, what would be life like without these capabilities? What would have to happen? >> Well, the issue is not that we had the same feature set before we moved to Presto, but the challenge was on scale. The cost profile to continue to grow from 100 terabytes to one petabyte, to tens of petabytes, not only was it expensive, but it just, the scaling factors were not linear. So not only did we have a problem with the costs, but we also had a problem with the performance tailing off and keeping the service running. A large Hadoop cluster, for example, our first incarnation of this use, the hive service, in order to query data in a MapReduce cluster. So it's a completely different technology that uses a distributed Hadoop compute cluster to do the query. It does work, but then we start to see resource contention with that, and all the other things in the Hadoop platform. The Presto engine has the beauty of it, not only was it designed for scale, but it's feature built just for a query engine and that's the providing the right tool for the job, as opposed to a general purpose tool. >> Derrick, you've got a very busy job as chief architect. What are you excited about going forward when you look at the cloud technologies? What are you looking at? What are you watching? What are you getting excited about or what worries you? >> Well, that's a good question. What we're really doing, I'm leading up a group called the Securonix Innovation Labs, and we're looking at next generation technologies. We go through and analyze both open source technologies, technologies that are proprietary as well as building own technologies. And that's where we came across Ahana as part of a comprehensive analysis of different search engines, because we wanted to go through another round of search engine modernization, and we worked together in a partnership, and we're going to market together as part of our modernization efforts that we're continuously going through. So I'm looking forward to iterative continuous improvement over time. And this next journey, what we're seeing because of the growth in cybersecurity, really requires new and innovative technologies to work together holistically. >> Dipti, you got a great company that you co-founded. I got to ask you as the co-founder and chief product officer, you both the lead entrepreneur also, got the keys to the kingdom with the products. You got to balance that 20 miles stare out in the future while driving product excellence. You've got open source as a tailwind. What's on your mind as you go forward with your venture? >> Yeah. Great question. It's been super exciting to have found the Ahana in this space, cloud data and open source. That's where the action is happening these days, but there's two parts to it. One is making our customers successful and continuously delivering capabilities, features, continuing on our ease of use theme and a foundation to get customers like Securonix and others to get most value out of their data and as fast as possible, right? So that's a continuum. In terms of the longer term innovation, the way I see the space, there is a lot more innovation to be done and Presto itself can be made even better and there's a next gen Presto that we're working on. And given that Presto is a part of the foundation, the Linux Foundation, a lot of this innovation is happening together collaboratively with Facebook, with Uber who are members of the foundation with us. Securonix, we look forward to making a part of that foundation. And that innovation together can then benefit the entire community as well as the customer base. This includes better performance with more capabilities built in, caching and many other different types of database innovations, as well as scaling, auto scaling and keeping up with this ease of use theme that we're building on. So very exciting to work together with all these companies, as well as Securonix who's been a fantastic partner. We work together, build features together, and I look at delivering those features and functionalities to be used by these analysts, data scientists and threat hunters as Derrick called them. >> Great success, great partnership. And I love the open innovation, open co-creation you guys are doing together and open data lakes, great concept, open data analytics as well. This is the future. Insights coming from the open and sharing and actually having some standards. I love this topic, so Dipti, thank you very much, and Derrick, thanks for coming on and sharing on this Cube Conversation. Thanks for coming on. >> Thank you so much, John. >> Thanks for having us. >> Thanks. Take care. Bye-bye. >> Okay, it's theCube Conversation here in Palo Alto, California. I'm John furrier, your host of theCube. Thanks for watching. (upbeat music)

>>Uh, hi, I'm Joe Rodriguez, managing director of financial services at Cloudera. Uh, welcome to the fight fraud with a data session, uh, at Cloudera, we believe that fighting fraud with, uh, uh, begins with data. Um, so financial services is Cloudera's largest industry vertical. We have approximately 425 global financial services customers, uh, which consists of 82 out of a hundred of the largest global banks of which we have 27 that are globally systemic banks, uh, four out of the five top, uh, stock exchanges, uh, eight out of the top 10 wealth management firms and all four of the top credit card networks. So as you can see most financial services institutions, uh, utilize Cloudera for data analytics and machine learning, uh, we also have over 20 central banks and a dozen or so financial regulators. So it's an incredible footprint which gives Cloudera lots of insight into the many innovations, uh, that our customers are coming up with. Uh, criminals can steal thousands of dollars before a fraudulent transaction is detected. So the cost of, uh, to purchase a, your account data is well worth the price to fraudsters. Uh, according to Experian credit and debit card account information sells on the dark web for a mere $5 with the CVV number and up to $110. If it comes with all the bank information, including your name, social security number, date of birth, uh, complete account numbers and, and other personal data. >>Um, our customers have several key data and analytics challenges when it comes to fighting financial crime. The volume of data that they need to deal with is, is huge and growing exponentially. Uh, all this data needs to be evaluated in real time. Uh, there is, uh, there are new sources of, of streaming data that need to be integrated with existing, uh, legacy data sources. This includes, um, biometrics data and enhanced, uh, authentication, uh, video surveillance call center data. And of course all that needs to be integrated with existing legacy data sources. Um, there is an analytics arms race between the banks and the criminals and the criminal networks never stop innovating. They also we'll have to deal with, uh, disjointed security and governance, security and governance policies are often set per data source, uh, or application requiring redundant work, work across workloads. And, and they have to deal with siloed environments, um, the specialized nature of platforms and people results in disparate data sources and data management processes, uh, this duplicates efforts and, uh, divides the, the business risk and crime teams, limiting collaboration opportunities between CDP enhances financial crime solutions, uh, to be holistic by eliminating data gaps between siloed solutions with, uh, an enterprise data approach, uh, advanced, uh, data analytics and machine learning, uh, by deploying an enterprise wide data platform, you reduce siloed divisions between business risk and crime teams and enable better collaboration through industrialized machine learning. >>Uh, you tighten up the loop between, uh, detection and new fraud patterns. Cloudera provides the data platform on which a best of breed applications can run and leverage integrated machine learning cloud Derrick stands rather than replaces your existing fraud modeling applications. So Oracle SAS Actimize to, to name a few, uh, integrate with an enterprise data hub to scale the data increased speed and flexibility and improve efficacy of your entire fraud system. It also centralizes the fraud workload on data that can be used for other use cases in applications like enhanced KYC and a customer 360 4 example. >>I just, I wanted to highlight a couple of our partners in financial crime prevention, uh, semi dine, and Quintex, uh, uh, so send me nine provides fraud simulation using agent-based modeling, uh, machine learning techniques, uh, to generate synthetic transaction data. This data simulates potential fraud scenarios in a cost-effective, uh, GDPR compliant, virtual environment, significantly improved financial crime detection systems, semi dine identifies future fraud topologies, uh, from millions of, of simulations that can be used to dynamically train, uh, new machine learning algorithms for enhanced fraud identification and context, um, uh, connects the dots within your data, using dynamic entity resolution, and advanced network analytics to create context around your customers. Um, this enables you to see the bigger picture and automatically assesses potential criminal beads behavior. >>Now let's go some of our, uh, customers, uh, and how they're using cloud caldera. Uh, first we'll talk about, uh, United overseas bank, or you will be, um, you'll be, is a leading full service bank in, uh, in Asia. It, uh, with, uh, a network of more than 500 offices in, in 19 countries and territories in Asia, Pacific, Western Europe and north America UA, um, UOB built a modern data platform on Cloudera that gives it the flexibility and speed to develop new AI and machine learning solutions and to create a data-driven enterprise. Um, you'll be set up, uh, set up it's big data analytics center in 2017. Uh, it was Singapore's first centralized big data unit, uh, within a bank to deepen the bank's data analytic capabilities and to use data insights to enhance, uh, the banks, uh, uh, performance essential to this work was implementing a platform that could cost efficiently, bring together data from dozens of separate systems and incorporate a range of unstructured data, including, uh, voice and text, um, using Cloudera CDP and machine learning. >>UOB gained a richer understanding of its customer preferences, uh, to help make their, their banking experience simpler, safer, and more reliable. Working with Cloudera UOB has a big data platform that gives business staff and data scientists faster access to relevant and quality data for, for self-service analytics, machine learning and, uh, emerging artificial intelligence solutions. Um, with new self-service analytics and machine learning driven insights, you'll be, uh, has realized improvements in, in digital banking, asset management, compliance, AML, and more, uh, advanced AML detection capabilities, help analysts detect suspicious transactions either based on hidden relationships of shell companies and, uh, high risk individuals, uh, with, uh, Cloudera and machine learning, uh, technologies. You you'll be, uh, was able to enhance AML detection and reduce the time to identify new links from months 2, 3, 3 weeks. >>Excellent mass let's speak about MasterCard. So MasterCard's principle businesses to process payments between banks and merchants and the credit issuing banks and credit unions of the purchasers who use the MasterCard brand debit and credit cards to make purchases MasterCard chose Cloudera enterprise for fraud detection, and to optimize their DW infrastructure, delivering deepens insights and best practices in big data security and compliance. Uh, next let's speak about, uh, bank Rakka yet, uh, in Indonesia or Bri. Um, it, VRI is one of the largest and oldest banks in Indonesia and engages in the provision of general banking services. Uh, it's headquartered in Jakarta Indonesia. Uh, Bri is well known for its focus on financing initiatives and serves over 75 million customers through it's more than 11,000 offices and rural service outposts. Uh, Bri required better insight to understand customer activity and identify fraudulent transactions. Uh, the bank needed a solid foundation that allowed it to leverage the power of advanced analytics, artificial intelligence, and machine learning to gain better understanding of customers and the market. >>Uh, Bri used, uh, Cloudera enterprise data platform to build an agile and reliable, predictive augmented intelligence solution, uh, to enhance its credit scoring system and to address the rising concern around data security from regulators, uh, and customers, uh, Bri developed a real-time fraud detection service, uh, powered by Cloudera and Kafka. Uh, Bri's data scientists developed a machine learning model for fraud detection by creating a behavioral scoring model based on customer savings, uh, loan transactions, deposits, payroll and other financial, um, uh, real-time time data. Uh, this led to improvements in its fraud detection and credit scoring capabilities, as well as the development of a, of a new digital microfinancing product, uh, with the enablement of real-time fraud detection, VRI was able to reduce the rate of fraud by 40%. Uh, it improved, uh, relationship manager productivity by two and a half fold. Uh, it improved the credit score scoring system to cut down on micro-financing loan processing times from two weeks to two days to now two minutes. So fraud prevention is a good area to start with a data focus. If you haven't already, it offers a quick return on investment, uh, and it's a focused area. That's not too entrenched across the company, uh, to learn more about fraud prevention, uh, go to kroger.com and to schedule, and you should schedule a meeting with Cloudera, uh, to learn even more. Uh, and with that, thank you for listening and thank you for your time. >>Welcome to the customer. Obsession begins with data session. Uh, thank you for, for attending. Um, at Cloudera, we believe that a custom session begins with, uh, with, with data, um, and, uh, you know, financial services is Cloudera is largest industry vertical. We have approximately 425 global financial services customers, uh, which consists of 82 out of a hundred of the largest global banks of which we have 27 that are globally systemic banks, uh, four out of the five top stock exchanges, eight out of the 10 top wealth management firms and all four of the top credit card networks. Uh, so as you can see most financial services institutions utilize Cloudera for data analytics and machine learning. Uh, we also have over 20 central banks and it doesn't or so financial regulators. So it's an incredible footprint, which glimpse Cloudera, lots of insight into the many innovations that our customers are coming up with. >>Customers have grown more independent and demanding. Uh, they want the ability to perform many functions on their own and, uh, be able to do it. Uh, he do them on their mobile devices, uh, in a recent Accenture study, more than 50% of customers, uh, are focused on, uh, improving their customer experience through more personalized offers and advice. The study found that 75% of people are actually willing to share their data for better personalized offers and more efficient and intuitive services to get it better, better understanding of your customers, use all the data available to develop a complete view of your customer and, uh, and better serve them. Uh, this also breaks down, uh, costly silos, uh, shares data in, in accordance with privacy laws and assists with regulatory advice. It's so different organizations are going to be at different points in their data analytics and AI journey. >>Uh, there are several degrees of streaming and batch data, both structured and unstructured. Uh, you need a platform that can handle both, uh, with common, with a common governance layer, um, near real time. And, uh, real-time sources help make data more relevant. So if you look at this graphic, looking at it from left to right, uh, normal streaming and batch data comes from core banking and, uh, and lending operations data in pretty much a structured format as financial institutions start to evolve. Uh, they start to ingest near real-time streaming data that comes not only from customers, but also from, from newsfeeds for example, and they start to capture more behavioral data that they can use to evolve their models, uh, and customer experience. Uh, ultimately they start to ingest more real time streaming data, not only, um, standard, uh, sources like market and transaction data, but also alternative sources such as social media and connected sources, such as wearable devices, uh, giving them more, more data, better data, uh, to extract intelligence and drive personalized actions based on data in real time at the right time, um, and use machine learning and AI, uh, to drive anomaly detection and protect and predict, uh, present potential outcomes. >>So this is another way to look at it. Um, this slide shows the progression of the big data journey as it relates to a customer experience example, um, the dark blue represents, um, visibility or understanding your customer. So we have a data warehouse and are starting to develop some analytics, uh, to know your customer and start to provide a better customer 360 experience. Uh, the medium blue area, uh, is a customer centric or where we learn, uh, the customer's behavior. Uh, at this point we're improving our analytics, uh, gathering more customer centric information to perform, uh, some more exploratory, uh, data sciences. And we can start to do things like cross sell or upsell based on the customer's behavior, which should improve, uh, customer retention. The light blue area is, uh, is proactive customer inter interactions, or where we now have the ability, uh, to predict customers needs and wants and improve our interaction with the customer, uh, using applied machine learning and, and AI, uh, the Cloudera data platform, um, you know, business use cases require enabling, uh, the end-to-end journey, which we referred to as the data life cycle, uh, what the data life cycle, what is the data life cycle that our customers want, uh, to take their data through, to enable the end to end data journey. >>If you ask our customers, they want different types of analytics, uh, for their diverse user bases to help them implement their, their, their use cases while managed by a centralized security and governance later layer. Uh, in other words, um, the data life cycle to them provides multifunction analytics, uh, at each stage, uh, within the data journey, uh, that, uh, integrated and centralized, uh, security, uh, and governance, for example, uh, enterprise data consists of real time and transactional type type data. Examples include, uh, click stream data, web logs, um, machine generated, data chat bots, um, call center interactions, uh, transactions, uh, within legacy applications, market data, et cetera. We need to manage, uh, that data life cycle, uh, to provide real enterprise data insights, uh, for use cases around enhanced them, personalized customer experience, um, customer journey analytics next best action, uh, sentiment and churn analytics market, uh, campaign optimization, uh, mortgage, uh, processing optimization and so on. >>Um, we bring a diverse set of data then, um, and then enrich it with other data about our customers and products, uh, provide reports and dashboards such as customer 360 and use predictions from machine models to provide, uh, business decisions and, and offers of, uh, different products and services to customers and maintain customer satisfaction, um, by using, um, sentiment and churn analytics. These examples show that, um, the whole data life cycle is involved, um, and, uh, is in continuous fashion in order to meet these types of use cases, uh, using a single cohesive platform that can be, uh, that can be served by CDP, uh, the data, the Cloudera data platform. >>Okay. Uh, let's talk about, uh, some of the experiences, uh, from our customers. Uh, first we'll talk about Bunco suntan there. Um, is a major global bank headquartered in Spain, uh, with, uh, major operations and subsidiaries all over Europe and north and, and south America. Uh, one of its subsidiaries, something there UK wanted to revolutionize the customer experience with the use of real time data and, uh, in app analytics, uh, for mobile users, however, like many financial institutions send them there had a, he had a, had a large number of legacy data warehouses spread across many business use, and it's within consistent data and different ways of calculating the same metrics, uh, leading to different results. As a result, the company couldn't get the comprehensive customer insights it needed. And, uh, and business staff often worked on multiple versions of the truth. Sometime there worked with Cloudera to improve a single data platform that could support all its workloads, including self-service analytics, uh, operational analytics and data science processes, processing processing, 10 million transactions daily or 30,000 transactions per second at peak times. >>And, uh, bringing together really, uh, nearly two to two petabytes of data. The platform provides unprecedented, uh, customer insight and business value across the organization, uh, over 80 cents. And there has realized impressive, uh, benefits spanning, uh, new revenues, cost savings and risk reductions, including creating analytics for, for corporate customers with near real-time shopping behavior, um, and, and helping identify 7,000 new corporate, uh, customer prospects, uh, reducing capital expenditures by, uh, 3.2 million annually and decreasing operating expenses by, uh, 650,000, um, enabling marketing to realize, uh, 2.4 million in annual savings on, on cash, on commercial transactions, um, and protecting 3.7 million customers from financial crime impacts through 95, new proactive control alerts, improving risk and capital calculations to reduce the amount of money. It must set aside, uh, as part of a, as part of risk mandates. Uh, for example, in one instance, the risk team was able to release a $5.2 million that it had withheld for non-performing credit card loans by properly identifying healthy accounts miscategorized as high risk next, uh, let's uh, talk about, uh, Rabobank. >>Um, Rabobank is one of the largest banks in the Netherlands, uh, with approximately 8.3 million customers. Uh, it was founded by farmers in the late 19th century and specializes in agricultural financing and sustainability oriented banking, uh, in order to help its customers become more self-sufficient and, uh, improve their financial situations such as debt settlement, uh, rebel bank needed to access, uh, to a varied mix of high quality, accurate, and timely customer data, the talent, uh, to provide this insight, however, was the ability to execute sophisticated and timely data analytics at scale Rabobank was also faced with the challenge of, uh, shortening time to market. Uh, it needed easier access to customer data sets to ensure that they were using and receiving the right financial support at the right time with, with, uh, data quality and speed of processing. Um, highlighted as two vital areas of improvement, Rabobank was looking to incorporate, um, or create new data in an environment that would not only allow the organization to create a centralized repository of high quality data, but also allow them to stream and, uh, conduct data analytics on the fly, uh, to create actionable insights and deliver a strong customer experience bank level Cloudera due to its ability to cope with heavy pressures on data processing and its capability of ingesting large quantities of real time streaming data. >>They were able to quickly create a new data lake that allowed for faster queries of both historical and real time data to analyze customer loan repayment patterns, uh, to up to the minute transaction records, um, Robert bank and, and its customers could now immediately access, uh, the valuable data needed to help them understand, um, the status of their financial situation in this enabled, uh, rebel bank to spot financial disasters before they happened, enabling them to gain deep and timely insights into which customers were at risk of defaulting on loans. Um, having established the foundation of a modern data architecture Rabobank is now able to run sophisticated machine learning algorithms and, uh, financial models, uh, to help customers manage, um, financial, uh, obligations, um, including, uh, long repayments and are able to generate accurate, uh, current real liquidity. I refuse, uh, next, uh, let's uh, speak about, um, uh, OVO. >>Uh, so OVO is the leading digital payment rewards and financial services platform in Indonesia, and is present in 115 million devices across the company across the country. Excuse me. Um, as the volume of, of products within Obos ecosystem increases, the ability to ensure marketing effectiveness is critical to avoid unnecessary waste of time and resources, unlike competitors, uh, banks, w which use traditional mass marketing, uh, to reach customers over, oh, decided to embark on a, on a bold new approach to connect with customers via, uh, ultra personalized marketing, uh, using the Cloudera stack. The team at OVO were able to implement a change point detection algorithm, uh, to discover customer life stage changes. This allowed OVO, uh, to, uh, build a segmentation model of one, uh, the contextual offer engine Bill's recommendation algorithms on top of the product, uh, including collaborative and context-based filters, uh, to detect changes in consumer consumption patterns. >>As a result, OVO has achieved a 15% increase in revenue, thanks to this, to this project, um, significant time savings through automation and eliminating the chance of human error and have reduced engineers workloads by, by 30%. Uh, next let's talk about, uh, bank Bri, uh, bank Bri is one of the largest and oldest, uh, banks in Indonesia, um, engaging in, in general banking services, uh, for its customers. Uh, they are headquartered in, in Jakarta Indonesia, uh, PR is a well-known, uh, for its, uh, focused on micro-financing initiative initiatives and serves over 75 million customers through more than 11,000 offices and rural outposts, um, Bri needed to gain better understanding of their customers and market, uh, to improve the efficiency of its operations, uh, reduce losses from non-performing loans and address the rising concern around data security from regulators and consumers, uh, through enhanced fraud detection. This would require the ability to analyze the vast amounts of, uh, historical financial data and use those insights, uh, to enhance operations and, uh, deliver better service. >>Um, Bri used Cloudera's enterprise data platform to build an agile and reliable, uh, predictive augmented intelligence solution. Uh, Bri was now able to analyze 124 years worth of historical financial data and use those insights to enhance its operations and deliver better services. Um, they were able to, uh, enhance their credit scoring system, um, the solution analyzes customer transaction data, and predicts the probability of a customer defaulting on, on payments. Um, the following month, it also alerts Bri's loan officers, um, to at-risk customers, prompting them to take the necessary action to reduce the likelihood of the net profit lost, uh, this resulted in improved credit, improved credit scoring system, uh, that cut down the approval of micro financing loans, uh, from two weeks to two days to, to two minutes and, uh, enhanced fraud detection. >>All right. Uh, this example shows a tabular representation, uh, the evolution of a customer retention use case, um, the evolution of data and analytics, uh, journey that, uh, that for that use case, uh, from aware, uh, text flirtation, uh, to optimization, to being transformative, uh, with every level, uh, data sources increase. And, uh, for the most part, uh, are, are less, less standard, more dynamic and less structured, but always adding more value, more insights into the customer, uh, allowing us to continuously improve our analytics, increase the velocity of the data we ingest, uh, from, from batch, uh, to, uh, near real time, uh, to real-time streaming, uh, the volume of data we ingest continually increases and we progress, uh, the value of the data on our customers, uh, is continuously improving, allowing us to interact more proactively and more efficiently. And, and with that, um, I would, uh, you know, ask you to consider and assess if you are using all the, uh, the data available to understand, uh, and service your customers, and to learn more about, about this, um, you know, visit cloudera.com and schedule a meeting with Cloudera to learn more. And with that, thank you for your time. And thank you for listening.

>>from >>around the >>globe. It's the Cube with digital coverage of pager duty. Summit 2020. Brought to you by pager duty. Hey, welcome back to Brady. Jeffrey here with the Cube in Palo Alto studios today. And we're talking about an upcoming event. It's one of our favorites. This will be the fourth year that we've been doing it. And it's pager duty summit. And we're excited to have from the pager duty team. She's Caroline Gus, the VP of corporate marketing from pager duty. Caroline, Great to see you. >>Hi, Jeff. Great to see you again. >>Absolutely. So, you know, I was thinking before we turn on the cameras we've been doing pager duty for I think this will be like, say, our fourth year that first year was in the cool, um, cruise ship terminal pier. I gotta written appear 27 which was which was nice. And then the last two years, you've been in the, you know, historic Westin ST Francis in downtown San Francisco, which is a cool old venue, but oh, my goodness. You guys were busting at the seams last year. So this year, year to go virtual. There's a whole bunch of new things that that you could do in virtual that you couldn't do in physical space. At least when you're busting out of the seems so First off, Welcome and >>talk a little >>bit about planning for virtual versus planning for a physical event from, you know, head of marketing perspective. >>Absolutely. I mean, the first thing that's changed for us is the number of people that can come. It's five x the number of people that were able to join us, the Western last year. So we have, uh, we we expect to have 10,000 people registered on attending age duty summit. The second thing is thea share number of sessions that we can put on. Last year, I think we had around 25 sessions. This year we have between 40 and 50 on again. That's because we're not constrained by space and physical meeting rooms, so it's being a really exciting process for us. We've built a fantastic agenda on. It's very much personalized, you know, developers come to our event. They love our event for the opportunity to learn mixed with their peers, get best practices and hands on experience. So we have many more of those types of sessions when we have done previously, and that things like labs and Bird of Feather Sessions and Emma's. But we've also built a whole new track of content this year for executives. Page Julie has, um, many of the Fortune 500 on 4100 customers. We work very closely with CEO CTO, so we have built sessions that are really designed specifically for that audience on I think for us it's really opened up. The potential of this event made it so much broader and more appealing than we were able to do when we were, As you say, you know, somewhat confined by the location in downtown San Francisco. >>I think it's such an interesting point. Um, because before you were constrained, right, If you have X number of rooms over a couple of days, you know you've got to make hard decisions on breakouts and what could go in and what can't go in. And, you know, will there be enough demand for these for this session versus another session? Or from the perspective of an attendee, you know, do they have to make hard tradeoffs? I could only attend one session at one oclock on Tuesday and I got to make hard decisions. But this is, you said really opens up the opportunities. I think you said you doubled. You doubled your sessions on and you got five X a number of registrations. So I think, you know, way too many people think about what doesn't happen in digital vs talking about the things that you can do that are impossible in physical. >>Yeah, I think at the very beginning. Well, first of all, we held our Amir summit events in London in July. So that was great because we got Thio go through this experience once already. And what we learned was the rial removal of hurdles in this process. So, to your point about missing the session because you're attending another session, we were calling this sort of the Pelton version of events where you have live sessions. It's great to be there, live participate in the live Q and A, but equally you have an entire on demand library. So if you weren't able to go because there was something else at the same time, this is available on demand for you. So we are actually repeating live sessions on two consecutive day. So on the Monday we're on everything on the Tuesday I ask because show up again for life Q and A at the end of their sessions. But after that it's available forever on an on demand library. So for us, it was really removing hurdles in terms of the amount of content, the scheduling of the content on also the number of people that content in attend, no geographical boundaries anymore. It used to be that a customer of ours would think, Well, I'll send one or two people to the page duty summit. They could learn all the great innovation from page duty, and they'll bring it back to the team that's completely changed. You know, we have tens of 20 signing up on. All of them are able to get that experience firsthand. >>That's really interesting. I didn't didn't even think about, you know, kind of whole teams being able to attend down instead of just certain individuals because of budget constraints, or you can't send your whole team, you know, a way for a conference in a particular area. But the piece to that you're supporting that were over and over is that the net new registrants goes up so dramatically in terms of the names and and and who those individuals are because a lot of people just couldn't attend for for various reasons, whether it's cost, whether it's, uh, geography, whether it's they just can't take time off from from from leaving their primary job. So it's a really interesting opportunity to open up, um, the participation to such a much bigger like you said five x five X, and increase in the registration. That's pretty good number. >>That's right. Yeah. I mean, that crossed boundaries gone away. This event is free on DWhite. That's actually meant is, as I say, you know, larger teams from the same company are attending. Uh, In addition, we have a number of attendees who are not actually paid to duty customers right now to previously. This was very much a community event for, you know, our page duty users on now we actually have a large number of I asked, interested future customers that will be coming to the event. So that's really important for us. And also, I think, for our sponsor partners as well, because it's bordering out the audience for both of us. So let's >>talk about sponsors for a minute, because, um, one of the big things in virtual events that people are talking about quite often is. Okay, I can do the keynotes, and I could do the sessions. And now I have all these breakout sessions for, um, you know, training and certification and customer stories, etcetera. But when it comes to sponsors, right sponsors used, you know, go to events to set up a booth and hand out swag and wander badge. Right? And it really was feeding kind of a top level down funnel. That was really important. Well, now those have gone away. Physical events. So from the sponsor perspective, you know, what can they expect? What? What do you know the sponsor experience at pager duty Summit. Since I don't have a little tiny booth at the Westin ST Francis given out swag this year. >>Yeah. So one important thing is the agenda and how we're involving our sponsors in our agenda this time, something that we learned is we used to have very long keynotes. You know, the keynote could be an hour long on involved multiple components and people would stay in that room for a now er on did really stay and watch sessions all day. So we learned in the virtual format that we need to be shorter and more precise in our sessions on that opened up the opportunity to bring in more of our partners, our sponsorship partners. So zendesk Salesforce, Microsoft some examples. So they actually get to have their piece of both of our keynote sessions and of our technical product sessions. I'm really explain both the partnership with pager duty, but also they're called technology and the value that they provide customers. So I think that the presence of sponsors in content is much higher than it was before on we are still repeating the Expo format, so we actually do have on Expo Hall that any time there's breaking between sessions, you could go over to the Expo ball, and it actually runs throughout as well, and you can go in and you can talk to the teams. You can see product demos, so it's very much a virtual version of the Expo Hall where you went and you want around and you picked up a bit of swag, >>so you mentioned keynotes and and Jennifer and and the team has always had a fantastic keynotes. I mean, I just saw Jennifer being interviewed with Frank's Luqman and and Eric Juan from Zoom By by Curry, which was pretty amazing. I felt kind of jealous that I didn't get to do that. But, um, talk tell us a little bit about some of the speakers I know there'll be some some, you know, kind of big rally moment speakers as well as some that are more down to technical track or another track. Give us some highlights on on some of the people. I will be sharing the stage with Jennifer. >>Absolutely, I said. I think what's really unique about Page duty Summit is that we designed types of content for different types of attendees. So if you're a developer, your practitioner, we have something like this from Jones of Honeycombs, who's talking about who builds the tools that we all rely on today, and how do they collaborate to build them together in this virtual world? Or we have J. Paul Reed from Netflix talking about how to handle the stress of being involved in incidents, So that's really sessions for our core audience of developers who are part of our community and pager duty really helps them day to day with with that job. And then we have the more aspirational senior level speakers who could really learn from a ZA leader. So Bret Taylor, president and CEO of Salesforce, will be joining us on the main stage. You'll be talking about innovation and trust in today's world on. Then we have Derrick Johnson. He is president of N A A. C P, and he'll be talking about community engagement and particularly voter engagement, which is such an important topic for us right now. Aan den. We have leaders from within our customers who are really talking about the way they use pager duty thio drive change in their organization. So an example would be porches, bro. He runs digital for Fox on, and he's gonna be talking about digital acceleration. How large organization like Fox can really accelerate for this digital first world that we find ourselves living in right now, >>right? Well, you guys have such a developer focus because pager duty, the product of solution, has to integrate with so many other, um, infrastructure, you know, monitoring and, uh, and all of all those different systems because you guys were basically at the front line, you know, sending them the signals that go into those systems. So you have such a broad, you know, kind of ecosystem of technology partners. I don't know if people are familiar with all the integrations that you guys have built over the years, which is such a key piece of your go to market. >>That's right. I mean, we we like to say we're at the center of the digital ecosystem. We have 203 170 integrations on. That's important because we want anyone to be able to use page duty no matter what is in their technology stack technology stacks today are more complex than they've ever been before, particularly with businesses having to shift to this digital first model since we all began shelter in place, you know, we all are living through digital on working and learning through digital on DSO. The technology stacks that power that are more complicated than ever before. So by having 370 integrations, we really know that we conserve pretty much any set of services that your business. It's using. >>Yeah, we've all seen all the means right about who's who's pushing your digital transformation. You know, the CEO, the CEO or or covert. And we all know the answer to toe what's accelerated that whole process. So okay, but so before I let you go, I don't even think we've mentioned the date. So it's coming up Monday, September, September 21st through Thursday, September 24th not at the West End Online and again. What air? What are you hoping? You're kind of the key takeaways for the attendees after they come to the summit? >>Yeah, a couple of things. I mean, first of all, I think will be a sense of belonging. Three attendees, the uses, a pager duty. They are really the teams that are at the forefront of keeping our digital services working on. But what that means is responding to incidents we've actually seen. Ah, 38% increase in the volume of incidents on our platform since covert and shelter in place began. Wait 30 >>38% increase in incidents since mid March. >>That's correct. Since the beginning of on bear in mind incidents. Prior to that in the six months prior, they were pretty flat. There wasn't instant growth. But what we've also seen is a 20% improvement in the time that it takes to resolve an incident from five minutes down to four minutes. So what that really means is that the pager duty community is working really hard. They're improving their practices. Hopefully our platform, our platform is a key part of how, but these are some people under pressure, so I hope that people can come and they can experience a sense of belonging. They can learn from each other about experiences. How do you manage the stress of that situation on what are some of the great innovations that make your job easier in the year ahead? The second thing that we don't for that community is that we are offering certification for P. D. You page due to university for free this year. It's of course, with a value of $7500. Last year, you would attend page duty summit on you would sit through your sessions and you would learn and you would get certified. So this year it's offered for free. You take the course during summit. But you can also carry on if you miss anything for 30 days after. So we're really feeling that, you know, we're giving back there, offering a great program for certification and improved skills completely free to help our community in this in this time of pressure, >>right? Right. Well, it is a very passionate community, and, you know, we go to so many events and you can you can really tell it's palatable, you know, kind of what the where the tight communities are and where people are excited to see each other and where they help each other, not necessarily only at the event, but you know, throughout the year. And I think you know a huge shout out to Jennifer on the culture that she's built there because it is very warm. It's very inclusive, is very positive. And and that energy, you know, kind of goes throughout the whole company and ice the teaser. You know this in something that's built around a device that most of the kids today don't even know what a pager is, and just the whole concept of carrying a pager and being on call right and being responsible. It's a very different way to kind of look at the world when you're the one that has that thing on your hip and it's buzzing and someone's expecting, Ah, return call and you gotta fix something So you know, a huge shout out to keep a positive and you're smiling nice and big culture in a job where you're basically fixing broken things most of the time. >>Yeah, absolutely. I mean, there's, I think, a joke that we make you know these things only break on Friday night or your wedding anniversary or Thanksgiving. But one of the announcements we're most excited about this year is the level of automation on artificial intelligence that we're building into our platform that is really going to reduce the number of interruptions that developers get when they are uncle. >>Yeah, I look forward to more conversations because we're gonna be doing a bunch of Cube interviews like Normal and, uh, you know, applied artificial intelligence, I think, is where all the excitement is. It's not a generic thing. It's where you applied in a specific application to get great business outcomes. So I look forward to that conversation and hopefully we'll be able to talk again and good luck to you and the team in the last few weeks of preparation. >>Thanks so much, Jeff. I've enjoyed talking to you. Thanks for having me. >>Alright. You too. And we'll see you later. Alright. She is Caroline. I'm Jeff. You're watching the Cube. Thanks for watching. We'll see you next time.

(electronic music) >> From Santa Clara, California in the heart of Silicon Valley, its theCUBE. Covering Altitude 2020, brought to you by Aviatrix. (electronic music) >> Female pilot: Good morning, ladies and gentlemen, this is your captain speaking, we will soon be taking off on our way to altitude. (upbeat music) Please keep your seat belts fastened and remain in your seat. We will be experiencing turbulence, until we are above the clouds. (thunder blasting) (electronic music) (seatbelt alert sounds) Ladies and gentlemen, we are now cruising at altitude. Sit back and enjoy the ride. (electronic music) >> Female pilot: Altitude is a community of thought leaders and pioneers, cloud architects and enlightened network engineers, who have individually and are now collectively, leading their own IT teams and the industry. On a path to lift cloud networking above the clouds. Empowering enterprise IT to architect, design and control their own cloud network, regardless of the turbulent clouds beneath them. It's time to gain altitude. Ladies and gentlemen, Steve Mullaney, president and CEO of Aviatrix. The leader of multi-cloud networking. (electronic music) (audience clapping) >> Steve: All right. (audience clapping) Good morning everybody, here in Santa Clara as well as to the millions of people watching the livestream worldwide. Welcome to Altitude 2020, all right. So, we've got a fantastic event, today, I'm really excited about the speakers that we have today and the experts that we have and really excited to get started. So, one of the things I wanted to share was this is not a one-time event. This is not a one-time thing that we're going to do. Sorry for the Aviation analogy, but, you know, Sherry Wei, aviatrix means female pilot so everything we do has an aviation theme. This is a take-off, for a movement. This isn't an event, this is a take-off of a movement. A multi-cloud networking movement and community that we're inviting all of you to become part of. And why we're doing that, is we want to enable enterprises to rise above the clouds, so to speak and build their network architecture, regardless of which public cloud they're using. Whether it's one or more of these public clouds. So the good news, for today, there's lots of good news but this is one good news, is we don't have any PowerPoint presentations, no marketing speak. We know that marketing people have their own language. We're not using any of that, and no sales pitches, right? So instead, what are we doing? We're going to have expert panels, we've got Simon Richard, of Gartner here. We've got ten different network architects, cloud architects, real practitioners that are going to share their best practices and their real world experiences on their journey to the multi-cloud. So, before we start, everybody know what today is? In the U.S., it's Super Tuesday. I'm not going to get political, but Super Tuesday there was a bigger, Super Tuesday that happened 18 months ago. And Aviatrix employees know what I'm talking about. Eighteen months ago, on a Tuesday, every enterprise said, "I'm going to go to the cloud". And so what that was, was the Cambrian explosion, for cloud, for the enterprise. So, Frank Cabri, you know what a Cambrian explosion is. He had to look it up on Google. 500 million years ago, what happened, there was an explosion of life where it went from very simple single-cell organisms to very complex, multi-cell organisms. Guess what happened 18 months ago, on a Tuesday, I don't really know why, but every enterprise, like I said, all woke up that day and said, "Now I'm really going to go to cloud" and that Cambrian explosion of cloud meant that I'm moving from a very simple, single cloud, single-use case, simple environment, to a very complex, multi-cloud, complex use case environment. And what we're here today, is we're going to go undress that and how do you handle those, those complexities? And, when you look at what's happening, with customers right now, this is a business transformation, right? People like to talk about transitions, this is a transformation and it's actually not just a technology transformation, it's a business transformation. It started from the CEO and the Boards of enterprise customers where they said, "I have an existential threat to the survival of my company." If you look at every industry, who they're worried about is not the other 30-year-old enterprise. What they're worried about is the three year old enterprise that's leveraging cloud, that's leveraging AI, and that's where they fear that they're going to actually wiped out, right? And so, because of this existential threat, this is CEO led, this is Board led, this is not technology led, it is mandated in the organizations. We are going to digitally transform our enterprise, because of this existential threat and the movement to cloud is going to enable us to go do that. And so, IT is now put back in charge. If you think back just a few years ago, in cloud, it was led by DevOps, it was led by the applications and it was, like I said, before the Cambrian explosion, it was very simple. Now, with this Cambrian explosion, an enterprise is getting very serious and mission critical. They care about visibility, they care about control, they care about compliance, conformance, everything, governance. IT is in charge and that's why we're here today to discuss that. So, what we're going to do today, is much of things but we're going to validate this journey with customers. >> Steve: Did they see the same thing? We're going to validate the requirements for multi-cloud because, honestly, I've never met an enterprise that is not going to be multicloud. Many are one cloud today but they all say, " I need to architect my network for multiple clouds", because that's just what, the network is there to support the applications and the applications will run in whatever cloud it runs best in and you have to be prepared for that. The second thing is, is architecture. Again, with IT in charge, you, architecture matters. Whether its your career, whether its how you build your house, it doesn't matter. Horrible architecture, your life is horrible forever. Good architecture, your life is pretty good. So, we're going to talk about architecture and how the most fundamental and critical part of that architecture and that basic infrastructure is the network. If you don't get that right, nothing works, right? Way more important than compute. Way more important than storage. Network is the foundational element of your infrastructure. Then we're going to talk about day two operations. What does that mean? Well day one is one day of your life, where you wire things up they do and beyond. I tell everyone in networking and IT -- it's every day of your life. And if you don't get that right, your life is bad forever. And so things like operations, visibility, security, things like that, how do I get my operations team to be able to handle this in an automated way because it's not just about configuring it in the cloud, it's actually about how do I operationalize it? And that's a huge benefit that we bring as Aviatrix. And then the last thing we're going to talk and it's the last panel we have, I always sayyou can't forget about the humans, right? So all this technology, all these things that we're doing, it's always enabled by the humans. At the end of the day, if the humans fight it, it won't get deployed. And we have a massive skills gap, in cloud and we also have a massive skills shortage. You have everyone in the world trying to hire cloud network architects, right? There's just not enough of them going around. So, at Aviatrix, we said as leaders do, "We're going to help address that issue and try to create more people." We created a program, what we call the ACE Program, again, aviation theme, it stands for Aviatrix Certified Engineer. Very similar to what Cisco did with CCIEs where Cisco taught you about IP networking, a little bit of Cisco, we're doing the same thing, we're going to teach network architects about multicloud networking and architecture and yeah, you'll get a little bit of Aviatrix training in there, but this is the missing element for people's careers and also within their organizations. So we're going to go talk about that. So, great, great event, great show. We're going to try to keep it moving. I next want to introduce, my host, he is the best in the business, you guys have probably seen him multiple, many times, he is the co-CEO and co founder of theCUBE, John Furrier. (audience clapping) (electronic music) >> John: Okay, awesome, great speech there, awesome. >> Yeah. >> I totally agree with everything you said about the explosion happening and I'm excited, here at the heart of silicon valley to have this event. It's a special digital event with theCUBE and Aviatrix, where we're live-streaming to, millions of people, as you said, maybe not a million. >> Maybe not a million. (laughs) Really to take this program to the world and this is really special for me, because multi-cloud is the hottest wave in cloud. And cloud-native networking is fast becoming the key engine, of the innovations, so we got an hour and a half of action-packed programming. We have a customer panel. Two customer panels. Before that Gartner's going to come out, talk about the industry. We have global system integrators, that will talk about, how their advising and building these networks and cloud native networking. And then finally the ACE's, the Aviatrix Certified Engineers, are going to talk more about their certifications and the expertise needed. So, let's jump right in, let's ask, Simon Richard to come on stage, from Gartner. We'll kick it all off. (electronic music) (clapping) >> John: Hi, can I help you. Okay, so kicking things off, getting started. Gartner, the industry experts on cloud. Really kind of more, cue your background. Talk about your background before you got to Gartner? >> Simon: Before being at Gartner, I was a chief network architect, of a Fortune 500 company, that with thousands of sites over the world and I've been doing everything in IT from a C programmer, in the 90, to a security architect, to a network engineer, to finally becoming a network analyst. >> So you rode the wave. Now you're covering the marketplace with hybrid cloud and now moving quickly to multi-cloud, is really what everyone is talking about. >> Yes. >> Cloud-native's been discussed, but the networking piece is super important. How do you see that evolving? >> Well, the way we see Enterprise adapting, cloud. The first thing you do about networking, the initial phases they either go in a very ad hoc way. Is usually led by none IT, like a shadow IT, or application people, sometime a DevOps team and it just goes as, it's completely unplanned. They create VPC's left and right with different account and they create mesh to manage them and they have Direct Connect or Express Route to any of them. So that's the first approach and on the other side. again within our first approach you see what I call, the lift and shift. Where we see like enterprise IT trying to, basically replicate what they have in a data center, in the Cloud. So they spend a lot of time planning, doing Direct Connect, putting Cisco routers and F5 and Citrix and any checkpoint, Palo Alto device, that in a sense are removing that to the cloud. >> I got to ask you, the aha moment is going to come up a lot, in one our panels, is where people realize, that it's a multi-cloud world. I mean, they either inherit clouds, certainly they're using public cloud and on-premises is now more relevant than ever. When's that aha moment? That you're seeing, where people go, "Well I got to get my act together and get on this cloud." >> Well the first, right, even before multi-cloud. So there is two approach's. The first one, like the adult way doesn't scare. At some point IT has to save them, 'cause they don't think about the tools, they don't think about operation, they have a bunch of VPC and multiple cloud. The other way, if you do the lift and shift way, they cannot take any advantages of the cloud. They lose elasticity, auto-scaling, pay by the drink. All these agility features. So they both realize, okay, neither of these ways are good, so I have to optimize that. So I have to have a mix of what I call, the cloud native services, within each cloud. So they start adapting, like all the AWS Construct, Azure Construct or Google Construct and that's what I call the optimal phase. But even that they realize, after that, they are all very different, all these approaches different, the cloud are different. Identities is constantly, difficult to manage across clouds. I mean, for example, anybody who access' accounts, there's subscription, in Azure and GCP, their projects. It's a real mess, so they realized, well I don't really like constantly use the cloud product and every cloud, that doesn't work. So I have, I'm going multi-cloud, I like to abstract all of that. I still want to manage the cloud from an EPI point of view, I don't necessarily want to bring my incumbent data center products, but I have to do that and in a more EPI driven cloud environment. >> So, the not scaling piece that you where mentioning, that's because there's too many different clouds? >> Yes. >> That's the least they are, so what are they doing? What are they, building different development teams? Is it software? What's the solution? >> Well, the solution is to start architecting the cloud. That's the third phase. I called that the multi-cloud architect phase, where they have to think about abstraction that works across cloud. Fact, even across one cloud it might not scale as well, If you start having like ten thousand security agreement, anybody who has that doesn't scale. You have to manage that. If you have multiple VPC, it doesn't scale. You need a third-party, identity provider. In variously scales within one cloud, if you go multiple cloud, it gets worse and worse. >> Steve, weigh in here. What's your thoughts? >> I thought we said this wasn't going to be a sales pitch for Aviatrix. (laughter) You just said exactly what we do, so anyway, that's a joke. What do you see in terms of where people are, in that multi-cloud? So, like lot of people, you know, everyone I talk to, started at one cloud, right, but then they look and then say okay but I'm now going to move to Azure and I'm going to move to... (trails off) Do you see a similar thing? >> Well, yes. They are moving but there's not a lot of application, that uses three cloud at once, they move one app in Azure, one app in AWS and one app in Google. That's what we see so far. >> Okay, yeah, one of the mistakes that people think, is they think multi-cloud. No one is ever going to go multi-cloud, for arbitrage. They're not going to go and say, well, today I might go into Azure, 'cause I get a better rate on my instance. Do you agree? That's never going to happen. What I've seen with enterprise, is I'm going to put the workload in the app, the app decides where it runs best. That may be Azure, maybe Google and for different reasons and they're going to stick there and they're not going to move. >> Let me ask you guys-- >> But the infrastructure, has to be able to support, from a networking team. >> Yes. >> Be able to do that. Do you agree with that? >> Yes, I agree. And one thing is also very important, is connecting to the cloud, is kind of the easiest thing. So, the wide area network part of the cloud, connectivity to the cloud is kind of simple. >> Steve: I agree. >> IP's like VPN, Direct Connect, Express Route. That's the simple part, what's difficult and even the provisioning part is easy. You can use Terraform and create VPC's and Vnet's across your three cloud provider. >> Steve: Right. >> What's difficult is that they choose the operation. So we'll define day two operation. What does that actually mean? >> Its just the day to day operations, after you know, the natural, lets add an app, lets add a server, lets troubleshoot a problem. >> Something changes, now what do you do? >> So what's the big concerns? I want to just get back to the cloud native networking, because everyone kind of knows what cloud native apps are. That's been the hot trend. What is cloud native networking? How do you guys, define that? Because that seems to be the hardest part of the multi-cloud wave that's coming, is cloud native networking. >> Well there's no, you know, official Gartner definition but I can create one on the spot. >> John: Do it. (laughter) >> I just want to leverage the Cloud Construct and the cloud EPI. I don't want to have to install, like a... (trails off) For example, the first version was, let's put a virtual router that doesn't even understand the cloud environment. >> Right. If I have if I have to install a virtual machine, it has to be cloud aware. It has to understand the security group, if it's a router. It has to be programmable, to the cloud API. And understand the cloud environment. >> And one thing I hear a lot from either CSO's, CIO's or CXO's in general, is this idea of, I'm definitely not going API. So, its been an API economy. So API is key on that point, but then they say. Okay, I need to essentially have the right relationship with my suppliers, aka you called it above the clouds. So the question is... What do I do from an architectural standpoint? Do I just hire more developers and have different teams, because you mentioned that's a scale point. How do you solve this problem of, okay, I got AWS, I got GCP, or Azure, or whatever. Do I just have different teams or do I just expose EPI's? Where is that optimization? Where's the focus? >> Well, I think what you need, from a network point of view is a way, a control plane across the three clouds. And be able to use the API's of the cloud, to build networks but also to troubleshoot them and do day to day operation. So you need a view across the three clouds, that takes care of routing, connectivity. >> Steve: Performance. >> John: That's the Aviatrix plugin, right there. >> Steve: Yeah. So, how do you see, so again, your Gartner, you see the industry. You've been a network architect. How do you see this this playing out? What are the legacy incumbent client server, On Prem networking people, going to do? >> Well they need to.. >> Versus people like a Aviatrix? How do you see that playing out? >> Well obviously, all the incumbents, like Arista, Cisco, Juniper, NSX. >> Steve: Right. >> They want to basically do the lift and shift part, they want to bring, and you know, VMware want to bring in NSX on the cloud, they call that "NSX everywhere" and Cisco want to bring in ACI to the cloud, they call that "ACI Anywhere". So, everyone's.. (trails off) And then there's CloudVision from Arista, and Contrail is in the cloud. So, they just want to bring the management plane, in the cloud, but it's still based, most of them, is still based on putting a VM in them and controlling them. You extend your management console to the cloud, that's not truly cloud native. >> Right. >> Cloud native you almost have to build it from scratch. >> We like to call that cloud naive. >> Cloud naive, yeah. >> So close, one letter, right? >> Yes. >> That was a big.. (slurs) Reinvent, take the T out of Cloud Native. It's Cloud Naive. (laughter) >> That went super viral, you guys got T-shirts now. I know you're loving that. >> Steve: Yeah. >> But that really, ultimately, is kind of a double-edged sword. You can be naive on the architecture side and ruleing that. And also suppliers or can be naive. So how would you define who's naive and who's not? >> Well, in fact, their evolving as well, so for example, in Cisco, it's a little bit more native than other ones, because there really is, "ACI in the cloud", you can't really figure API's out of the cloud. NSX is going that way and so is Arista, but they're incumbent, they have their own tools, its difficult for them. They're moving slowly, so it's much easier to start from scratch. Even you, like, you know, a network company that started a few years ago. There's only really two, Aviatrix was the first one, they've been there for at least three or four years. >> Steve: Yeah. >> And there's other one's, like Akira, for example that just started. Now they're doing more connectivity, but they want to create an overlay network, across the cloud and start doing policies and things. Abstracting all the clouds within one platform. >> So, I got to ask you. I interviewed an executive at VMware, Sanjay Poonen, he said to me at RSA last week. Oh, there'll only be two networking vendors left, Cisco and VMware. (laughter) >> What's you're response to that? Obviously when you have these waves, these new brands that emerge, like Aviatrix and others. I think there'll be a lot of startups coming out of the woodwork. How do you respond to that comment? >> Well there's still a data center, there's still, like a lot, of action on campus and there's the wan. But from the cloud provisioning and cloud networking in general, I mean, they're behind I think. You know, you don't even need them to start with, you can, if you're small enough, you can just keep.. If you have AWS, you can use the AWS construct, they have to insert themselves, I mean, they're running behind. From my point of view. >> They are, certainly incumbents. I love the term Andy Jess uses at Amazon web services. He uses "Old guard, new guard", to talk about the industry. What does the new guard have to do? The new brands that are emerging. Is it be more DevOp's oriented? Is it NetSec ops? Is it NetOps? Is it programmability? These are some of the key discussions we've been having. What's your view, on how you see this programmability? >> The most important part is, they have to make the network simple for the Dev teams. You cannot make a phone call and get a Vline in two weeks anymore. So if you move to the cloud, you have to make that cloud construct as simple enough, so that for example, a Dev team could say, "Okay, I'm going to create this VPC, but this VPC automatically associates your account, you cannot go out on the internet. You have to go to the transit VPC, so there's lot of action in terms of, the IAM part and you have to put the control around them to. So to make it as simple as possible. >> You guys, both. You're the CEO of Aviatrix, but also you've got a lot of experience, going back to networking, going back to the, I call it the OSI days. For us old folks know what that means, but, you guys know what this means. I want to ask you the question. As you look at the future of networking, you hear a couple objections. "Oh, the cloud guys, they got networking, we're all set with them. How do you respond to the fact that networking's changing and the cloud guys have their own networking. What's some of the paying points that's going on premises of these enterprises? So are they good with the clouds? What needs... What are the key things that's going on in networking, that makes it more than just the cloud networking? What's your take on it? >> Well as I said earlier. Once you could easily provision in the cloud, you can easily connect to the cloud, its when you start troubleshooting applications in the cloud and try to scale. So that's where the problem occurred. >> Okay, what's your take on it. >> And you'll hear from the customers, that we have on stage and I think what happens is all the clouds by definition, designed to the 80-20 rule which means they'll design 80% of the basic functionality. And then lead to 20% extra functionality, that of course every Enterprise needs, to leave that to ISV's, like Aviatrix. Because why? Because they have to make money, they have a service and they can't have huge instances, for functionality that not everybody needs. So they have to design to the common and that, they all do it, right? They have to and then the extra, the problem is, that Cambrian explosion, that I talked about with enterprises. That's what they need. They're the ones who need that extra 20%. So that's what I see, there's always going to be that extra functionality. In an automated and simple way, that you talked about, but yet powerful. With the up with the visibility and control, that they expect of On Prem. That kind of combination, that Yin and the Yang, that people like us are providing. >> Simon I want to ask you? We're going to ask some of the cloud architect, customer panels, that same question. There's pioneer's doing some work here and there's also the laggards who come in behind their early adopters. What's going to be the tipping point? What are some of these conversations, that the cloud architects are having out there? Or what's the signs, that they need to be on this, multi-cloud or cloud native networking trend? What are some of the signal's that are going on in the environment? What are some of the thresholds? Are things that are going on, that they can pay attention to? >> Well, once they have the application on multiple cloud and they have to get wake up at two in the morning, to troubleshoot them. They'll know it's important. (laughter) So, I think that's when the rubber will hit the road. But, as I said, it's easier to prove, at any case. Okay, it's AWS, it's easy, user transit gateway, put a few VPC's and you're done. And you create some presents like Equinox and do a Direct Connect and Express Route with Azure. That looks simple, its the operations, that's when they'll realize. Okay, now I need to understand! How cloud networking works? I also need a tool, that gives me visibility and control. But not only that, I need to understand the basic underneath it as well. >> What are some of the day in the life scenarios. you envision happening with multi-cloud, because you think about what's happening. It kind of has that same vibe of interoperability, choice, multi-vendor, 'cause they're multi-cloud. Essentially multi-vendor. These are kind of old paradigms, that we've lived through with client server and internet working. What are some of the scenarios of success, that might be possible? Will be possible, with multi-cloud and cloud native networking. >> Well, I think, once you have good enough visibility, to satisfy your customers, not only, like to, keep the service running and application running. But to be able to provision fast enough, I think that's what you want to achieve. >> Simon, final question. Advice for folks watching on the Livestream, if they're sitting there as a cloud architect or CXO. What's your advice to them right now, in this market, 'cause obviously, public cloud check, hybrid cloud, they're working on that. That gets on premises done, now multi-cloud's right behind it. What's your advice? >> The first thing they should do, is really try to understand cloud networking. For each of their cloud providers and then understand the limitations. And, is what the cloud service provider offers enough? Or you need to look to a third party, but you don't look at a third party to start with. Especially an incumbent one, so it's tempting to say "I have a bunch of F5 experts", nothing against F5. I'm going to bring my F5 in the Cloud, when you can use an ELB, that automatically understand eases and auto scaling and so on. And you understand that's much simpler, but sometimes you need your F5, because you have requirements. You have like iRules and that kind of stuff, that you've used for years. 'cause you cannot do it. Okay, I have requirement and that's not met, I'm going to use Legacy Star and then you have to start thinking, okay, what about visibility control, above the true cloud. But before you do that you have to understand the limitations of the existing cloud providers. First, try to be as native as possible, until things don't work, after that you can start thinking of the cloud. >> Great insight, Simon. Thank you. >> That's great. >> With Gartner, thank you for sharing. (electronic music) >> Welcome back to ALTITUDE 2020. For the folks in the live stream, I'm John Furrier, Steve Mullaney, CEO of Aviatrix. For our first of two customer panels with cloud network architects, we've got Bobby Willoughby, AEGON Luis Castillo from National Instruments and David Shinnick with FactSet. Guys, welcome to the stage for this digital event. Come on up. (audience clapping) (upbeat music) Hey good to see you, thank you. Customer panel, this is my favorite part. We get to hear the real scoop, we get the Gardener giving us the industry overview. Certainly, multi-cloud is very relevant, and cloud-native networking is a hot trend with the live stream out there in the digital events. So guys, let's get into it. The journey is, you guys are pioneering this journey of multi-cloud and cloud-native networking and are soon going to be a lot more coming. So I want to get into the journey. What's it been like? Is it real? You've got a lot of scar tissue? What are some of the learnings? >> Absolutely. Multi-cloud is whether or not we accept it, as network engineers is a reality. Like Steve said, about two years ago, companies really decided to just bite the bullet and move there. Whether or not we accept that fact, we need to not create a consistent architecture across multiple clouds. And that is challenging without orchestration layers as you start managing different tool sets and different languages across different clouds. So it's really important to start thinking about that. >> Guys on the other panelists here, there's different phases of this journey. Some come at it from a networking perspective, some come in from a problem troubleshooting, what's your experiences? >> From a networking perspective, it's been incredibly exciting, it's kind of once in a generational opportunity to look at how you're building out your network. You can start to embrace things like infrastructure as code that maybe your peers on the systems teams have been doing for years, but it just never really worked on-prem. So it's really exciting to look at all the opportunities that we have and all of the interesting challenges that come up that you get to tackle. >> And effects that you guys are mostly AWS, right? >> Yeah. Right now though, we are looking at multiple clouds. We have production workloads running in multiple clouds today but a lot of the initial work has been with Amazon. >> And you've seen it from a networking perspective, that's where you guys are coming at it from? >> Yup. >> Awesome. How about you? >> We evolve more from a customer requirement perspective. Started out primarily as AWS, but as the customer needed more resources from Azure like HPC, Azure AD, things like that, even recently, Google analytics, our journey has evolved into more of a multi-cloud environment. >> Steve, weigh in on the architecture because this is going to be a big conversation, and I wanted you to lead this section. >> I think you guys agree the journey, it seems like the journey started a couple of years ago. Got real serious, the need for multi-cloud, whether you're there today. Of course, it's going to be there in the future. So that's really important. I think the next thing is just architecture. I'd love to hear what you, had some comments about architecture matters, it all starts, every enterprise I talked to. Maybe talk about architecture and the importance of architects, maybe Bobby. >> From architecture perspective, we started our journey five years ago. >> Wow, okay. >> And we're just now starting our fourth evolution over network architect. And we call it networking security net sec, versus just as network. And that fourth-generation architecture should be based primarily upon the Palo Alto Networks and Aviatrix. Aviatrix to new orchestration piece of it. But that journey came because of the need for simplicity, the need for a multi-cloud orchestration without us having to go and do reprogramming efforts across every cloud as it comes along. >> I guess the other question I also had around architecture is also... Luis maybe just talk about it. I know we've talked a little bit about scripting, and some of your thoughts on that. >> Absolutely. So for us, we started creating the network constructs with cloud formation, and we've stuck with that for the most part. What's interesting about that is today, on-premise, we have a lot of automation around how we provision networks, but cloud formation has become a little bit like the new manual for us. We're now having issues with having to automate that component and making it consistent with our on-premise architecture and making it consistent with Azure architecture and Google cloud. So, it's really interesting to see companies now bring that layer of abstraction that SD-WAN brought to the wound side, now it's going up into the cloud networking architecture. >> Great. So on the fourth generation, you mentioned you're on the fourth-gen architecture. What have you learned? Is there any lessons, scratch issue, what to avoid, what worked? What was the path that you touched? >> It's probably the biggest lesson there is that when you think you finally figured it out, you haven't. Amazon will change something, Azure change something. Transit Gateway is a game-changer. And listening to the business requirements is probably the biggest thing we need to do upfront. But I think from a simplicity perspective, like I said, we don't want to do things four times. We want to do things one time, we want be able to write to an API which Aviatrix has and have them do the orchestration for us. So that we don't have to do it four times. >> How important is architecture in the progression? Is it do you guys get thrown in the deep end, to solve these problems, are you guys zooming out and looking at it? How are you guys looking at the architecture? >> You can't get off the ground if you don't have the network there. So all of those, we've gone through similar evolutions, we're on our fourth or fifth evolution. I think about what we started off with Amazon without Direct Connect Gateway, without Transit Gateway, without a lot of the things that are available today, kind of the 80, 20 that Steve was talking about. Just because it wasn't there doesn't mean we didn't need it. So we needed to figure out a way to do it, we couldn't say, "Oh, you need to come back to the network team in a year, and maybe Amazon will have a solution for it." We need to do it now and evolve later and maybe optimize or change the way you're doing things in the future. But don't sit around and wait, you can't. >> I'd love to have you guys each individually answer this question for the live streams that comes up a lot. A lot of cloud architects out in the community, what should they be thinking about the folks that are coming into this proactively and, or realizing the business benefits are there? What advice would you guys give them on architecture? What should be they'd be thinking about, and what are some guiding principles you could share? >> So I would start with looking at an architecture model that can spread and give consistency to the different cloud vendors that you will absolutely have to support. Cloud vendors tend to want to pull you into using their native tool set, and that's good if only it was realistic to talk about only one cloud. But because it doesn't, it's super important to talk about, and have a conversation with the business and with your technology teams about a consistent model. >> And how do I do my day one work so that I'm not spending 80% of my time troubleshooting or managing my network? Because if I'm doing that, then I'm missing out on ways that I can make improvements or embrace new technologies. So it's really important early on to figure out, how do I make this as low maintenance as possible so that I can focus on the things that the team really should be focusing on? >> Bobby, your advice there, architecture. >> I don't know what else I can add to that. Simplicity of operations is key. >> So the holistic view of day two operations you mentioned, let's can jump in day one as you're getting stuff set up, day two is your life after. This is kind of of what you're getting at, David. So what does that look like? What are you envisioning as you look at that 20-mile stair, out post multi-cloud world? What are some of the things that you want in the day two operations? >> Infrastructure as code is really important to us. So how do we design it so that we can start fit start making network changes and fitting them into a release pipeline and start looking at it like that, rather than somebody logging into a router CLI and troubleshooting things in an ad hoc nature? So, moving more towards a dev-ops model. >> You guys, anything to add on that day two? >> Yeah, I would love to add something. In terms of day two operations you can either sort of ignore the day two operations for a little while, where you get your feet wet, or you can start approaching it from the beginning. The fact is that the cloud-native tools don't have a lot of maturity in that space and when you run into an issue, you're going to end up having a bad day, going through millions and millions of logs just to try to understand what's going on. That's something that the industry just now is beginning to realize it's such a big gap. >> I think that's key because for us, we're moving to more of an event-driven or operations. In the past, monitoring got the job done. It's impossible to monitor something that is not there when the event happens. So the event-driven application and then detection is important. >> Gardner is all about the cloud-native wave coming into networking. That's going to be a serious thing. I want to get your guys' perspective, I know you have each different views of how you come into the journey and how you're executing. And I always say the beauty's in the eye of the beholder and that applies to how the network's laid out. So, Bobby, you guys do a lot of high-performance encryption, both on AWS and Azure. That's a unique thing for you. How are you seeing that impact with multi-cloud? >> That's a new requirement for us too, where we have an increment to encrypt. And then if you ever get the question, should I encrypt, should I not encrypt? The answer is always yes. You should encrypt when you can encrypt. For our perspective, we need to migrate a bunch of data from our data centers. We have some huge data centers, and getting that data to the cloud is a timely expense in some cases. So we have been mandated, we have to encrypt everything, leave in the data center. So we're looking at using the Aviatrix insane mode appliances to be able to encrypt 10, 20 gigabits of data as it moves to the cloud itself. >> David, you're using Terraform, you've got FireNet, you've got a lot of complexity in your network. What do you guys look at the future for your environment? >> So many exciting that we're working on now as FireNet. So for our security team that obviously have a lot of knowledge base around Palo Alto, and with our commitments to our clients, it's not very easy to shift your security model to a specific cloud vendor. So there's a lot of SOC 2 compliance and things like that were being able to take some of what you've worked on for years on-prem and put it in the cloud and have the same type of assurance that things are going to work and be secure in the same way that they are on-prem, helps make that journey into the cloud a lot easier. >> And Louis, you guys got scripting, you got a lot of things going on. What's your unique angle on this? >> Absolutely. So for disclosure, I'm not an Aviatrix customer yet. (laughs) >> It's okay, we want to hear the truth, so that's good. Tell us, what are you thinking about? What's on your mind? >> When you talk about implementing a tool like this, it's really just really important to talk about automation focus on value. When you talk about things like encryption and things like so you're encrypting tunnels and encrypting the path, and those things should be second nature really. When you look at building those back-ends and managing them with your team, it becomes really painful. So tools like Aviatrix that add a lot automation it's out of sight, out of mind. You can focus on the value, and you don't have to focus on this. >> So I got to ask you guys. I see Aviatrix was here, they're supplier to this sector, but you guys are customers. Everyone's pitching your stuff, people knock on you, "Buy my stuff." How do you guys have that conversation with the suppliers, like the cloud vendors and other folks? What's it like? We're API all the way? You've got to support this? What are some of your requirements? How do you talk to and evaluate people that walk in and want to knock on your door and pitch you something? What's the conversation like? >> It's definitely API driven. We definitely look at the API structure that the vendors provide before we select anything. That is always first of mine and also, what problem are we really trying to solve? Usually, people try to sell or try to give us something that isn't really valuable, like implementing a Cisco solution on the cloud doesn't really add a lot of value, that's where we go. >> David, what's your conversation like with suppliers? Do you have a certain new way to do things? As it becomes more agile, essentially networking, and getting more dynamic, what are some of the conversations with either in commits or new vendors that you're having? What do you require? >> Ease of use is definitely high up there. We've had some vendors come in and say, "Hey, when you go to set this up, "we're going to want to send somebody on-site." And they're going to sit with you for a day to configure it. And that's a red flag. Well, wait a minute, do we really, if one of my really talented engineers can't figure it out on his own, what's going on there and why is that? Having some ease of use and the team being comfortable with it and understanding it is really important. >> Bobby, how about you? Old days was, do a bake-off and the winner takes all. Is it like that anymore? What's evolving? Bake-off last year for but still win. But that's different now because now when you get the product, you can install the product in AWS and Azure, have it up running in a matter of minutes. So the key is that can you be operational within hours or days instead of weeks? But do we also have the flexibility to customize it, to meet your needs? Because you don't want to be put into a box with the other customers when you have needs that are past their needs. >> I can almost see the challenge that you guys are living, where you've got the cloud immediate value, depending how you can roll up any solutions, but then you might have other needs. So you've got to be careful not to buy into stuff that's not shipping. So you're trying to be proactive and at the same time, deal with what you got. How do you guys see that evolving? Because multi-cloud to me is definitely relevant, but it's not yet clear how to implement across. How do you guys look at this baked versus future solutions coming? How do you balance that? >> Again, so right now, we're taking the ad hoc approach and experimenting what the different concepts of cloud are and really leveraging the native constructs of each cloud. But there's a breaking point for sure. You don't get to scale this like someone said, and you have to focus on being able to deliver, developers their sandbox or their play area for the things that they're trying to build quickly. And the only way to do that is with some consistent orchestration layer that allows you to-- >> So you expect a lot more stuff to becoming pretty quickly in that area. >> I do expect things to start maturing quite quickly this year. >> And you guys see similar trend, new stuff coming fast? >> Yeah. Probably the biggest challenge we've got now is being able to segment within the network, being able to provide segmentation between production, non-production workloads, even businesses, because we support many businesses worldwide and isolation between those is a key criteria there. So the ability to identify and quickly isolate those workloads is key. So the CIOs that are watching are saying, "Hey, take that hill, do multi-cloud." And then you have the bottoms up organization, "Pause, you're like off a little bit, it's not how it works." What is the reality in terms of implementing as fast as possible? Because the business benefits are clear, but it's not always clear on the technology how to move that fast. What are some of the barriers, what are the blockers, what are the enablers? >> I think the reality is that you may not think you're multi-cloud, but your business is. So I think the biggest barrier there is understanding what the requirements are and how best to meet those requirements in a secure manner. Because you need to make sure that things are working from a latency perspective that things work the way they did and get out of the mind shift that it was a tier-three application and the data center, it doesn't have to be a tier-three application in the cloud. So, lift and shift is not the way to go. >> Scale is a big part of what I see is the competitive advantage by these clouds and used to be proprietary network stacks in the old days, and then open systems came, that was a good thing. But as cloud has become bigger, there's an inherent lock-in there with the scale. How do you guys keep the choice open? How are you guys thinking about interoperability? What are some of the conversations that you guys are having around those key concepts? >> When we look at from a networking perspective, it's really key for you to just enable all the class to be able to communicate between them. Developers will find a way to use the cloud that best suits their business needs. And like you said, it's whether you're in denial or not, of the multi-cloud fact that your company is in already that's it becomes really important for you to move quickly. >> Yeah. And a lot of it also hinges on how well is the provider embracing what that specific cloud is doing? So, are they swimming with Amazon or Azure and just helping facilitate things, and they're doing the heavy lifting API work for you? Or are they swimming upstream and they're trying to hack it all together in messy way? And so that helps you stay out of the lock-in because there, if they're using Amazon native tools to help you get where you need to be, it's not like Amazon is going to release something in the future that completely makes you have designed yourself into a corner. So the closer, more than cloud-native they are, the more, the easier it is to deploy. >> Which also need to be aligned in such a way that you can take advantage of those cloud-native technologies. Will it make sense? TGW is a gamechanger in terms of cost and performance. So to completely ignore that, would be wrong. But if you needed to have encryption, TGW is not encrypted, so you need to have some type of Gateway to do the VPN encryption. So, the Aviatrix tool will give you the beauty of both worlds. You can use TGW or the Gateway. Real quick on the last minute we have, I want to just get a quick feedback from you guys. I hear a lot of people say to me, "Hey, pick the best cloud for the workload you got, then figure out multicloud behind the scenes." Do you guys agree with that? Do I go more to one cloud across the whole company or this workload works great on AWS, that workload works great on this. From a cloud standpoint, do you agree with that premise, and then when is multi-cloud stitching altogether? >> From an application perspective, it can be per workload, but it can also be an economical decision, certain enterprise contracts will pull you in one direction to add value, but the network problem is still the same. >> It doesn't go away. >> You don't want to be trying to fit a square into a round hall. If it works better on that cloud provider, then it's our job to make sure that service is there and people can use it. >> I agree, you just need to stay ahead of the game, make sure that the network infrastructure is there, security is available and is multi-cloud capable. >> At the end of the day, you guys are just validating that it's the networking game now. Cloud storage, compute check, networking is where the action is. Awesome. Thanks for your insights guys, appreciate you coming on the panel. Appreciate it, thanks. (upbeat music) >> John: Our next customer panel, got great another set of cloud network architects, Justin Smith with Zuora, Justin Brodley with EllieMae and Amit Utreja with Coupa. Welcome to stage. (audience applauds) (upbeat music) >> All right, thank you. >> How are ya? >> Thank you. Thank You. >> Hey Amit. How are ya? >> Did he say it right? >> Yeah. >> Okay he's got all the cliff notes from the last session, welcome back. Rinse and repeat. We're going to go into the hood a little bit. And I think they nailed what we've been reporting, we've been having this conversation around, networking is where the action is because that's at the end of the day you got to move packet from A to B and you got workloads exchanging data. So it's really killer. So let's get started. Amit, what are you seeing as the journey of multicloud as you go under the hood and say, "Okay, I got to implement this. "I have to engineer the network, "make it enabling, make it programmable, "make it interoperable across clouds." That almost sounds impossible to me. What's your take? >> Yeah, it seems impossible but if you are running an organization which is running infrastructure as a code it is easily doable. Like you can use tools out there that's available today, you can use third party products that can do a better job. But put your architecture first, don't wait. Architecture may not be perfect, put the best architecture that's available today and be agile, to iterate and make improvements over the time. >> We get to Justin's over here, so I have to be careful when I point a question to Justin, they both have the answer. Okay, journeys, what's the journey been like? Is there phases, We heard that from Gardner, people come into multicloud and cloud native networking from different perspectives? What's your take on the journey, Justin? >> Yeah, from our perspective, we started out very much focused on one cloud and as we've started doing acquisitions, we started doing new products to the market, the need for multicloud becomes very apparent, very quickly for us. And so having an architecture that we can plug and play into and be able to add and change things as it changes is super important for what we're doing in the space. >> Justin, your journey. >> Yes. For us, we were very ad hoc oriented and the idea is that we were reinventing all the time, trying to move into these new things and coming up with great new ideas. And so rather than it being some iterative approach with our deployments that became a number of different deployments. And so we shifted that toward and the network has been a real enabler of this. There's one network and it touches whatever cloud we want it to touch, and it touches the data centers that we need it to touch, and it touches the customers that we needed to touch. Our job is to make sure that the services that are available in one of those locations are available in all of the locations. So the idea is not that we need to come up with this new solution every time, it's that we're just iterating on what we've already decided to do. >> Before we get the architecture section, I want to ask you guys a question? I'm a big fan of let the app developers have infrastructure as code, so check. But having the right cloud run that workload, I'm a big fan of that, if it works great. But we just heard from the other panel, you can't change the network. So I want to get your thoughts, what is cloud native networking? And is that the engine really, that's the enabler for this multicloud trend? What's you guys take? We'll start with Amit, what do you think about that? >> Yeah, so you're going to have workloads running in different clouds and the workloads would have affinity to one cloud or other. But how you expose that it's a matter of how you are going to build your networks. How you're going to run security. How you're going to do egress, ingress out of it so -- >> You said networking is the big problem to solve. >> Yes. >> What's the solution? What's the key pain points and problem statement? >> The key pain point for most companies is how do you take your traditionally on premise network and then blow it out to the cloud in a way that makes sense. You have IP conflicts, you have IP space, you have public IPs on premise as well as in the cloud. And how do you kind of make sense of all of that? And I think that's where tools like Aviatrix make a lot of sense in that space. >> From our side, it's really simple. It's a latency, it's bandwidth and availability. These don't change whether we're talking about cloud or data center, or even corporate IT networking. So our job when these all of these things are simplified into like, S3, for instance and our developers want to use those. We have to be able to deliver that and for a particular group or another group that wants to use just just GCP resources. We have to support these requirements and these wants, as opposed to saying, "Hey, that's not a good idea." No, our job is to enable them not to disable them. >> Do you guys think infrastructure is code? Which I love that, I think that's the future in this. We even saw that with DevOps. But as you start getting the networking, is it getting down to the network portion where its network as code? Because storage and compute working really well, we're seeing all Kubernetes on service mesh trend. Network has code, reality is it there? Is it still got work to do? >> It's absolutely there, you mentioned net DevOps and it's very real. In Coupa we build our networks through terraform and not only just terraform, build an API so that we can consistently build VNets and VPC all across in the same way. >> So you guys are doing it? >> Yup. And even security groups. And then on top and Aviatrix comes in, we can peer the networks bridge all the different regions through code. >> Same with you guys. >> Yeah. >> What do you think about this? >> Everything we deploy is done with automation and then we also run things like Lambda on top to make changes in real time, we don't make manual changes on our network. In the data center, funny enough, it's still manual but the cloud has enabled us to move into this automation mindset. And all my guys, that's what they focus on is bringing, now what they're doing in the cloud into the data center, which is kind of opposite of what it should be or what it used to be. >> It's full DevOps then? >> Yes. >> For us, it was similar on-prem is still somewhat very manual, although we're moving more and more to ninja and terraform type concepts. But everything in the production environment is code, confirmation terraform code and now coming into the data center same (mumbles). >> So I just wanted to jump in Justin Smith, one of the comment that you made, because it's something that we always talk about a lot is that the center of gravity of architecture used to be an on-prem and now it's shifted in the cloud. And once you have your strategic architecture, what do you do? You push that everywhere. So what you used to see at the beginning of cloud was pushing the architecture on-prem into cloud. Now, I want to pick up on what you said, do you others agree that the center of gravity is here, I'm now pushing what I do in the cloud back into on-prem? And then so first that and then also in the journey, where are you at from zero to 100 of actually in the journey to cloud? Are you 50% there, are you 10%? Are you evacuating data centers next year? Where are you guys at? >> Yeah, so there's there's two types of gravity that you typically are dealing with, with the migration. First is data, gravity and your data set, and where that data lives. And then the second is the network platform that wraps all that together. In our case, the data gravity solely mostly on-prem but our network is now extending out to the app tier, it's going to be in cloud. Eventually, that data, gravity will also move to cloud as we start getting more sophisticated but in our journey, we're about halfway there. About halfway through the process, we're taking a handle of lift and shift and -- >> Steve: And when did that start? >> We started about three years ago. >> Okay, okay. >> Well for Coupa it's a very different story. It started from a garage and 100% on the cloud. So it's a business plan management platform, software as a service run 100% on the cloud. >> That was was like 10 years ago, right? >> Yes. >> Yeah. >> You guys are riding the wave of the architecture. Justin I want to ask you, Zuora, you guys mentioned DevOps. Obviously, we saw the huge observability wave, which essentially network management for the cloud, in my opinion. It's more dynamic, but this is about visibility. We heard from the last panel you don't know what's being turned on or turned off from a services standpoint, at any given time. How is all this playing out when you start getting into the DevOps down (mumbles)? >> This is the big challenge for all of us is visibility. When you talk transport within a cloud, very interestingly we we have moved from having a backbone that we bought, that we own, that would be data center connectivity. Zuora's a subscription billing company, so we want to support the subscription mindset. So rather than going and buying circuits and having to wait three months to install and then coming up with some way to get things connected and resiliency and redundancy. My backbone is in the cloud. I use the cloud providers interconnections between regions to transport data across and so if you do that with their native solutions, you do lose visibility. There are areas in that that you don't get, which is why controllers and having some type of management plane is a requirement for us to do what we're supposed to do and provide consistency while doing it. >> Great conversation. I loved what you said earlier latency, bandwidth, I think availability were your top three things. Guys SLA, just do ping times between clouds it's like, you don't know what you're getting for round trip time. This becomes a huge kind of risk management, black hole, whatever you want to call it, blind spot. How are you guys looking at the interconnect between clouds? Because I can see that working from ground to cloud on per cloud but when you start dealing with multiclouds workloads, SLAs will be all over the map, won't they just inherently. How do you guys view that? >> Yeah, I think we talked about workload and we know that the workloads are going to be different in different clouds, but they're going to be calling each other. So it's very important to have that visibility, that you can see how data is flowing at what latency and what availability is there and our authority needs to operate on that. >> So use the software dashboard, look at the times and look at the latency -- >> In the old days, Strongswan Openswan you try to figure it out, in the new days you have to figure out. >> Justin, what's your answer to that because you're in the middle of it? >> Yeah, I think the key thing there is that we have to plan for that failure, we have to plan for that latency in our applications. If certain things are tracking in your SLI, certain things are planning for and you loosely coupled these services in a much more microservices approach. So you actually can handle that kind of failure or that type of unknown latency and unfortunately, the cloud has made us much better at handling exceptions in a much better way. >> You guys are all great examples of cloud native from day one. When did you have the tipping point moment or the epiphany of saying a multiclouds real, I can't ignore it, I got to factor that into all my design principles and everything you're doing? Was there a moment or was it from day one? >> There are two reasons, one was the business. So in business, there were some affinity to not be in one cloud or to be in one cloud and that drove from the business side. So as a cloud architect our responsibility was to support that business. Another is the technology, some things are really running better in, like if you're running Dotnet workload or your going to run machine learning or AI so that you would have that preference of one cloud over other. >> Guys, any thoughts on that? >> That was the bill that we got from AWS. That's what drives a lot of these conversations is the financial viability of what you're building on top of. This failure domain idea which is fairly interesting. How do I solve our guarantee against a failure domain? You have methodologies with back end direct connects or interconnect with GCP. All of these ideas are something that you have to take into account but that transport layer should not matter to whoever we're building this for. Our job is to deliver the frames and the packets, what that flows across, how you get there? We want to make that seamless. And so whether it's a public internet API call or it's a back end connectivity through direct connect, it doesn't matter. It just has to meet a contract that you've signed with your application, folks. >> Yeah, that's the availability piece. >> Justin, your thoughts on that, any comment on that? >> So actually multiclouds become something much more recent in the last six to eight months, I'd say. We always kind of had a very much an attitude of like moving to Amazon from our private cloud is hard enough, why complicate it further? But the realities of the business and as we start seeing, improvements in Google and Azure and different technology spaces, the need for multicloud becomes much more important. As well as our acquisition strategies are matured, we're seeing that companies that used to be on premise that we typically acquire are now very much already on a cloud. And if they're on a cloud, I need to plug them into our ecosystem. And so that's really changed our multicloud story in a big way. >> I'd love to get your thoughts on the clouds versus the clouds, because you compare them Amazon's got more features, they're rich with features. Obviously, the bills are high to people using them. But Google's got a great network, Google's networks pretty damn good And then you got Azure. What's the difference between the clouds? Where do they fall? Where do they peak in certain areas better than others? What are the characteristics, which makes one cloud better? Do they have a unique feature that makes Azure better than Google and vice versa? What do you guys think about the different clouds? >> Yeah, to my experience, I think the approach is different in many places. Google has a different approach very DevOps friendly and you can run your workloads with your network can span regions. But our application ready to accept that. Amazon is evolving. I remember 10 years back Amazon's network was a flat network, we would be launching servers in 10.0.0/8, right. And then the VPCs came out. >> We'll have to translate that to English for the live feed. Not good. So the VPCs concept came out, multi account came out, so they are evolving. Azure had a late start but because they have a late start, they saw the pattern and they have some mature setup on the network. >> They've got around the same price too. >> I think they're all trying to say they're equal in their own ways. I think they all have very specific design philosophies that allow them to be successful in different ways and you have to kind of keep that in mind as you architect your own solution. For example, Amazon has a very regional affinity, they don't like to go cross region in their architecture. Whereas Google is very much it's a global network, we're going to think about as a global solution. I think Google also has advantage that it's third to market and so has seen what Azure did wrong, it seeing what AWS did wrong and it's made those improvements and I think that's one of their big advantage. >> They got great scale too. Justin thoughts on the cloud. >> So yeah, Amazon built from the system up and Google built from the network down. So their ideas and approaches are from a global versus original, I agree with you completely that is the big number one thing. But the if you look at it from the outset, interestingly, the inability or the ability for Amazon to limit layer to broadcasting and what that really means from a VPC perspective, changed all the routing protocols you can use. All the things that we had built inside of a data center to provide resiliency and make things seamless to users, all of that disappeared. And so because we had to accept that at the VPC level, now we have to accept that at the WAN level. Google's done a better job of being able to overcome those things and provide those traditional network facilities to us. >> Just a great panel, we could go all day here, it's awesome. So I heard, we will get to the cloud native naive questions. So kind of think about what's naive and what's cloud, I'll ask that next but I got to ask you I had a conversation with a friend he's like, "WAN is the new LAN?" So if you think about what the LAN was at a data center, WAN is the new LAN, cause you keep talking about the cloud impact? So that means ST-WAN, the old ST-WAN kind of changing. There's a new LAN. How do you guys look at that? Because if you think about it, what LANs were for inside a premises was all about networking, high speed. But now when you take the WAN and make it, essentially a LAN, do you agree with that? And how do you view this trend? Is it good or bad or is it ugly? What you guys take on this? >> Yeah, I think it's a thing that you have to work with your application architects. So if you are managing networks and if you're a server engineer, you need to work with them to expose the unreliability that it would bring in. So the application has to handle a lot of the difference in the latencies and the reliability has to be worked through the application there. >> LAN, WAN, same concept is that BS? Can you give some insight? >> I think we've been talking about for a long time the erosion of the edge. And so is this just a continuation of that journey we've been on for last several years. As we get more and more cloud native and we talked about API's, the ability to lock my data in place and not be able to access it really goes away. And so I think this is just continuation. I think it has challenges. We start talking about WAN scale versus LAN scale, the tooling doesn't work the same, the scale of that tooling is much larger. and the need to automation is much, much higher in a WAN than it wasn't a LAN. That's why you're seeing so much infrastructure as code. >> Yeah. So for me, I'll go back again to this, it's bandwidth and its latency that define those two LAN versus WAN. But the other thing that's comes up more and more with cloud deployments is whereas our security boundary and where can I extend this secure aware appliance or set of rules to protect what's inside of it. So for us, we're able to deliver VRFs or route forwarding tables for different segments wherever we're at in the world. And so they're trusted to talk to each other but if they're going to go to someplace that's outside of their network, then they have to cross the security boundary, where we enforce policy very heavily. So for me, there's it's not just LAN, WAN it's how does environment get to environment more importantly. >> That's a great point in security, we haven't talked it yet but that's got to be baked in from the beginning, this architecture. Thoughts on security, how you guys are dealing with it? >> Yeah, start from the base, have app to app security built in. Have TLS, have encryption on the data at transit, data at rest. But as you bring the application to the cloud and they're going to go multicloud, talking to over the internet, in some places, well have app to app security. >> Our principles day, security is day zero every day. And so we always build it into our design, build into our architecture, into our applications. It's encrypt everything, it's TLS everywhere. It's make sure that that data is secure at all times. >> Yeah, one of the cool trends at RSA, just as a side note was the data in use encryption piece, which is homomorphic stuff was interesting. Alright guys, final question. We heard on the earlier panel was also trending at re:Invent, we think the T out of cloud native, it spells cloud naive. They have shirts now, Aviatrix kind of got this trend going. What does that mean to be naive? To your peers out there watching the live stream and also the suppliers that are trying to supply you guys with technology and services, what's naive look like and what's native look like? When is someone naive about implementing all this stuff? >> So for me, because we are in 100% cloud, for us its main thing is ready for the change. And you will find new building blocks coming in and the network design will evolve and change. So don't be naive and think that it's static, evolve with the change. >> I think the biggest naivety that people have is that well, I've been doing it this way for 20 years, I've been successful, it's going to be successful in cloud. The reality is that's not the case. You got to think some of the stuff a little bit differently and you need to think about it early enough, so that you can become cloud native and really enable your business on cloud. >> Yeah for me it's being open minded. Our industry, the network industry as a whole, has been very much I'm smarter than everybody else and we're going to tell everybody how it's going to be done. And we fell into a lull when it came to producing infrastructure and so embracing this idea that we can deploy a new solution or a new environment in minutes as opposed to hours, or weeks or months in some cases, is really important in and so >> - >> It's naive being closed minded, native being open minded. >> Exactly. For me that was a transformative kind of where I was looking to solve problems in a cloud way as opposed to looking to solve problems in this traditional old school way. >> All right, I know we're at a time but I got to asked one more question, so you guys so good. Give me a quick answer. What's the BS language when you, the BS meter goes off when people talk to you about solutions? What's the kind of jargon that you hear, that's the BS meter going off? What are people talking about that in your opinion you here you go, "That's total BS?" What triggers you? >> So that I have two lines out of movies if I say them without actually thinking them. It's like 1.21 gigawatts are you out of your mind from Back to the Future right? Somebody's giving you all these wiz bang things. And then Martin Maul and Michael Keaton in Mr Mom when he goes to 220, 221, whatever it takes. >> Yeah. >> Those two right there, if those go off in my mind where somebody's talking to me, I know they're full of baloney. >> So a lot of speeds and feeds, a lot of speeds and feeds a lot of -- >> Just data. Instead of talking about what you're actually doing and solutioning for. You're talking about, "Well, it does this this this." Okay to 220, 221. (laughter) >> Justin, what's your take? >> Anytime I start seeing the cloud vendors start benchmarking against each other. Your workload is your workload, you need to benchmark yourself. Don't listen to the marketing on that, that's just awful. >> Amit, what triggers you in the BS meter? >> I think if somebody explains to you are not simple, they cannot explain you in simplicity, then it's all bull shit. >> (laughs) That's a good one. Alright guys, thanks for the great insight, great panel. How about a round of applause to practitioners. (audience applauds) (upbeat music) >> John: Okay, welcome back to Altitude 2020 for the digital event for the live feed. Welcome back, I'm John Furrier with theCUBE with Steve Mullaney, CEO Aviatrix. For the next panel from Global System Integrated, the folks who are building and working with folks on their journey to multicloud and cloud-native networking. We've got a great panel, George Buckman with DXC and Derrick Monahan with WWT, welcome to the stage. (Audience applauds) >> Hey >> Thank you >> Groovy spot >> All right (upbeat music) >> Okay, you guys are the ones out there advising, building, and getting down and dirty with multicloud and cloud-native networking, we just heard from the customer panel. You can see the diversity of where people come in to the journey of cloud, it kind of depends upon where you are, but the trends are all clear, cloud-native networking, DevOps, up and down the stack, this has been the main engine. What's your guys' take of this journey to multicloud? What do you guys think? >> Yeah, it's critical, I mean we're seeing all of our enterprise customers enter into this, they've been through the migrations of the easy stuff, ya know? Now they're trying to optimize and get more improvements, so now the tough stuff's coming on, right? They need their data processing near where their data is. So that's driving them to a multicloud environment. >> Yeah, we've heard some of the Edge stuff, I mean, you guys are-- >> Exactly. >> You've seen this movie before, but now it's a whole new ballgame, what's your take? Yeah, so, I'll give you a hint, our practice is not called the cloud practice, it's the multicloud practice, and so if that gives you a hint of how we approach things. It's very consultative. And so when we look at what the trends are, like a year ago. About a year ago we were having conversations with customers, "Let's build a data center in the cloud. Let's put some VPCs, let's throw some firewalls, let's put some DNS and other infrastructure out there and let's hope it works." This isn't a science project. What we're starting to see is customers are starting to have more of a vision, we're helping with that consultative nature, but it's totally based on the business. And you've got to start understanding how lines of business are using the apps and then we evolve into the next journey which is a foundational approach to-- >> What are some of the problems some of your customers are solving when they come to you? What are the top things that are on their mind, obviously the ease of use, agility, all that stuff, what specifically are they digging into? >> Yeah, so complexity, I think when you look at a multicloud approach, in my view is, network requirements are complex. You know, I think they are, but I think the approach can be, "Let's simplify that." So one thing that we try to do, and this is how we talk to customers is, just like you simplify in Aviatrix, simplifies the automation orchestration of cloud networking, we're trying to simplify the design, the plan, and implementation of the infrastructure across multiple workloads, across multiple platforms. And so the way we do it, is we sit down, we look at not just use cases, not just the questions we commonly anticipate, we actually build out, based on the business and function requirements, we build out a strategy and then create a set of documents, and guess what? We actually build it in a lab, and that lab that we platform rebuilt, proves out this reference architectural actually works. >> Absolutely, we implement similar concepts. I mean, they're proven practices, they work, right? >> But George, you mentioned that the hard part's now upon us, are you referring to networking, what specifically were you getting at there when you said, "The easy part's done, now the hard part?" >> So for the enterprises themselves, migrating their more critical apps or more difficult apps into the environments, ya know, we've just scratched the surface, I believe, on what enterprises are doing to move into the cloud, to optimize their environments, to take advantage of the scale and speed to deployment and to be able to better enable their businesses. So they're just now really starting to-- >> So do you guys see what I talked about? I mean, in terms of that Cambrian explosion, I mean, you're both monster system integrators with top fortune enterprise customers, you know, really rely on you for guidance and consulting and so forth, and deploy their networks. Is that something that you've seen? I mean, does that resonate? Did you notice a year and a half ago all of a sudden the importance of cloud for enterprise shoot up? >> Yeah, I mean, we're seeing it now. >> Okay. >> In our internal environment as well, ya know, we're a huge company ourselves, customer zero, our internal IT, so, we're experiencing that internally and every one of our other customers as well. >> So I have another question and I don't know the answer to this, and a lawyer never asks a question that you don't know the answer to, but I'm going to ask it anyway. DXC and WWT, massive system integrators, why Aviatrix? >> Great question, Steve, so I think the way we approach things, I think we have a similar vision, a similar strategy, how you approach things, how we approach things, at World Wide Technology. Number one, we want a simplify the complexity. And so that's your number one priority. Let's take the networking, let's simplify it, and I think part of the other point I'm making is we see this automation piece as not just an after thought anymore. If you look at what customers care about, visibility and automation is probably at the top three, maybe the third on the list, and I think that's where we see the value. I think the partnership that we're building and what I get excited about is not just putting yours and our lab and showing customers how it works, it's co-developing a solution with you. Figuring out, "Hey, how can we make this better?" >> Right >> Visibility is a huge thing, just in security alone, network everything's around visibility. What automation do you see happening, in terms of progression, order of operations, if you will? What's the low hanging fruit? What are people working on now? What are some of the aspirational goals around when you start thinking about multicloud and automation? >> So I wanted to get back to his question. >> Answer that question. >> I wanted to answer your question, you know, what led us there and why Aviatrix. You know, in working some large internal IT projects, and looking at how we were going to integrate those solutions, you know, we like to build everything with recipes. Network is probably playing catch-up in the DevOps world but with a DevOps mindset, looking to speed to deploy, support, all those things, so when you start building your recipe, you take a little of this, a little of that, and you mix it all together, well, when you look around, you say, "Wow, look, there's this big bag of Aviatrix. "Let me plop that in. That solves a big part "of my problems that I had, the speed to integrate, "the speed to deploy, and the operational views "that I need to run this." So that was what led me to-- >> John: So how about reference architectures? >> Yeah, absolutely, so, you know, they came with a full slate of reference architectures already out there and ready to go that fit our needs, so it was very easy for us to integrate those into our recipes. >> What do you guys think about all the multi-vendor inter-operability conversations that have been going on? Choice has been a big part of multicloud in terms of, you know, customers want choice, they'll put a workload in the cloud if it works, but this notion of choice and interoperability has become a big conversation. >> It is, and I think that our approach, and that's the way we talk to customers is, "Let's speed and de-risk that decision making process, "and how do we do that?" Because interoperability is key. You're not just putting, it's not just a single vendor, we're talking, you know, many many vendors, I mean think about the average number of cloud applications a customer uses, a business, an enterprise business today, you know, it's above 30, it's skyrocketing and so what we do, and we look at it from an interoperability approach is, "How do things inter-operate?" We test it out, we validate it, we build a reference architecture that says, "These are the critical design elements, "now let's build one with Aviatrix "and show how this works with Aviatrix." And I think the important part there, though, is the automation piece that we add to it and visibility. So I think the visibility is what I see lacking across industry today. >> In cloud-native that's been a big topic. >> Yep >> Okay, in terms of Aviatrix, as you guys see them coming in, they're one of the ones that are emerging and the new brands emerging with multicloud, you've still got the old guard encumbered with huge footprints. How are customers dealing with that kind of component in dealing with both of them? >> Yeah, I mean, we have customers that are ingrained with a particular vendor and you know, we have partnerships with many vendors. So our objective is to provide the solution that meets that client. >> John: And they all want multi-vendor, they all want interoperability. >> Correct. >> All right, so I got to ask you guys a question while we were defining Day-2 operations. What does that mean? You guys are looking at the big business and technical components of architecture, what does Day-2 operations mean, what's the definition of that? >> Yeah, so I think from our perspective, with my experience, we, you know, Day-2 operations, whether it's not just the orchestration piece in setting up and let it automate and have some, you know, change control, you're looking at this from a Day-2 perspective, "How do I support this ongoing "and make it easy to make changes as we evolve?" The cloud is very dynamic. The nature of how fast it's expanding, the number features is astonishing. Trying to keep up to date with the number of just networking capabilities and services that are added. So I think Day-2 operations starts with a fundamental understanding of building out supporting a customer's environments, and making the automation piece easy from a distance, I think. >> Yeah and, you know, taking that to the next level of being able to enable customers to have catalog items that they can pick and choose, "Hey I need this network connectivity "from this cloud location back to this on-prem." And being able to have that automated and provisioned just simply by ordering it. >> For the folks watching out there, guys, take a minute to explain as you guys are in the trenches doing a lot of good work. What are some of the engagements that you guys get into? How does that progress? What happens there, they call you up and say, "Hey I need some multicloud," or you're already in there? I mean, take us through how someone can engage to use a global SI, they come in and make this thing happen, what's the typical engagement look like? >> Derrick: Yeah, so from our perspective, we typically have a series of workshops in the methodology that we kind of go along the journey. Number one, we have a foundational approach. And I don't mean foundation meaning the network foundation, that's a very critical element, we got to factor in security and we got to factor in automation. So when you think about foundation, we do a workshop that starts with education. A lot of times we'll go in and we'll just educate the customer, what is VPC sharing? You know, what is a private link in Azure? How does that impact your business? We have customers that want to share services out in an ecosystem with other customers and partners. Well there's many ways to accomplish that. Our goal is to understand those requirements and then build that strategy with them. >> Thoughts George, on-- >> Yeah, I mean, I'm one of the guys that's down in the weeds making things happen, so I'm not the guy on the front line interfacing with the customers every day. But we have a similar approach. We have a consulting practice that will go out and apply their practices to see what those-- >> And when do you parachute in? >> Yeah, when I parachute in is, I'm on the back end working with our offering development leads for networking, so we understand and are seeing what customers are asking for and we're on the back end developing the solutions that integrate with our own offerings as well as enable other customers to just deploy quickly to meet their connectivity needs. So the patterns are similar. >> Right, final question for you guys, I want to ask you to paint a picture of what success looks like. You don't have to name customers, you don't have to get in and reveal who they are, but what does success look like in multicloud as you paint a picture for the folks here and watching on the live stream, if someone says, "Hey I want to be multicloud, I got to to have my operations Agile, I want full DevOps, I want programmability and security built in from Day-zero." What does success look like? >> Yeah, I think success looks like this, so when you're building out a network, the network is a harder thing to change than some other aspects of cloud. So what we think is, even if you're thinking about that second cloud, which we have most of our customers are on two public clouds today, they might be dabbling in it. As you build that network foundation, that architecture, that takes in to consideration where you're going, and so once we start building that reference architecture out that shows, this is how to approach it from a multicloud perspective, not a single cloud, and let's not forget our branches, let's not forget our data centers, let's not forget how all this connects together because that's how we define multicloud, it's not just in the cloud, it's on-prem and it's off-prem. And so collectively, I think the key is also is that we provide them an HLD. You got to start with a high level design that can be tweaked as you go through the journey but you got to give it a solid structural foundation, and that networking which we think, most customers think as not the network engineers, but as an after thought. We want to make that the most critical element before you start the journey. >> George, from your seat, how does success look for you? >> So, you know it starts out on these journeys, often start out people not even thinking about what is going to happen, what their network needs are when they start their migration journey to the cloud. So I want, success to me looks like them being able to end up not worrying about what's happening in the network when they move to the cloud. >> Steve: Good point. >> Guys, great insight, thanks for coming on and sharing. How about a round of applause for the global system integrators? (Audience applauds) (Upbeat music) >> The next panel is the AVH certified engineers, also known as ACEs. This is the folks that are certified, they're engineering, they're building these new solutions. Please welcome Toby Foss from Informatica, Stacey Lanier from Teradata, and Jennifer Reed with Viqtor Davis to the stage. (upbeat music) (audience cheering) (panelists exchanging pleasantries) >> You got to show up. Where's your jacket Toby? (laughing) You get it done. I was just going to rib you guys and say, where's your jackets, and Jen's got the jacket on. Okay, good. >> Love the Aviatrix, ACEs Pilot gear there above the Clouds. Going to new heights. >> That's right. >> So guys Aviatrix aces, I love the name, think it's great, certified. This is all about getting things engineered. So there's a level of certification, I want to get into that. But first take us through the day in the life of an ACE, and just to point out, Stacy is a squad leader. So he's, he's like a-- >> Squadron Leader. >> Squadron Leader. >> Yeah. >> Squadron Leader, so he's got a bunch of ACEs underneath him, but share your perspective a day in the Life. Jennifer, we'll start with you. >> Sure, so I have actually a whole team that works for me both in the North America, both in the US and in Mexico. So I'm eagerly working to get them certified as well, so I can become a squad leader myself. But it's important because one of the critical gaps that we've found is people having the networking background because you graduate from college, and you have a lot of computer science background, you can program you've got Python, but networking in packets they just don't get. So, just taking them through all the processes that it's really necessary to understand when you're troubleshooting is really critical. Because you're going to get an issue where you need to figure out where exactly is that happening on the network, Is my issue just in the VPCs? Is it on the instance side is a security group, or is it going on prem? This is something actually embedded within Amazon itself? I mean, I troubleshot an issue for about six months going back and forth with Amazon, and it was the VGW VPN. Because they were auto scaling on two sides, and we ended up having to pull out the Cisco's, and put in Aviatrix so I could just say, " okay, it's fixed," and actually helped the application teams get to that and get it solved. But I'm taking a lot of junior people and getting them through that certification process, so they can understand and see the network, the way I see the network. I mean, look, I've been doing this for 25 years when I got out. When I went in the Marine Corps, that's what I did, and coming out, the network is still the network. But people don't get the same training they got in the 90s. >> Was just so easy, just write some software, and they were, takes care of itself. I know, it's pixie dust.  >> I'll come back to that, I want to come back to that, the problem solved with Amazon, but Toby. >> I think the only thing I have to add to that is that it's always the network's fault. As long as I've been in networking, it's always been the network's fault. I'm even to this day, it's still the network's fault, and part of being a network guy is that you need to prove when it is and when it's not your fault. That means you need to know a little bit about 100 different things, to make that work. >> Now you got a full stack DevOps, you got to know a lot more times another hundred. >> Toby: And the times are changing, yeah. >> This year the Squadron Leader and get that right. What is the Squadron Leader firstly? Describe what it is. >> I think is probably just leading on the network components of it. But I think, from my perspective, when to think about what you asked them was, it's about no issues and no escalations. So of my day is like that, I'm happy to be a squadron leader. >> That is a good outcome, that's a good day. >> Yeah, sure, it is. >> Is there good days? You said you had a good day with Amazon? Jennifer, you mentioned the Amazon, and this brings up a good point, when you have these new waves come in, you have a lot of new things, new use cases. A lot of the finger pointing it's that guy's problem , that girl's problems, so how do you solve that, and how do you get the Young Guns up to speed? Is there training, is it this where the certification comes in? >> This is where the certifications really going to come in. I know when we got together at Reinvent, one of the questions that we had with Steve and the team was, what should our certification look like? Should we just be teaching about what AVH troubleshooting brings to bear, but what should that be like? I think Toby and I were like, No, no, no, no. That's going a little too high, we need to get really low because the better someone can get at actually understanding what's actually happening in the network, and where to actually troubleshoot the problem, how to step back each of those processes. Because without that, it's just a big black box, and they don't know. Because everything is abstracted, in Amazon and in Azure and in Google, is abstracted, and they have these virtual gateways, they have VPNs, that you just don't have the logs on, is you just don't know. So then what tools can you put in front of them of where they can look? Because there are full logs. Well, as long as they turned on the flow logs when they built it, and there's like, each one of those little things that well, if they'd had decided to do that, when they built it, it's there. But if you can come in later to really supplement that with training to actual troubleshoot, and do a packet capture here, as it's going through, then teaching them how to read that even. >> Yeah, Toby, we were talking before we came on up on stage about your career, you've been networking all your time, and then, you're now mentoring a lot of younger people. How is that going? Because the people who come in fresh they don't have all the old war stories, like they don't talk about it, There's never for, I walk in bare feet in the snow when I was your age, I mean, it's so easy now, right, they say. What's your take on how you train the young People. >> So I've noticed two things. One is that they are up to speed a lot faster in generalities of networking. They can tell you what a network is in high school level now, where I didn't learn that til midway through my career, and they're learning it faster, but they don't necessarily understand why it's that way here. Everybody thinks that it's always slash 24 for a subnet, and they don't understand why you can break it down smaller, why it's really necessary. So the ramp up speed is much faster for these guys that are coming in. But they don't understand why and they need some of that background knowledge to see where it's coming from, and why is it important, and that's old guys, that's where we thrive. >> Jennifer, you mentioned you got in from the Marines, it helps, but when you got into networking, what was it like then and compare it now? Because most like we heard earlier static versus dynamic Don't be static is like that. You just set the network, you got a perimeter. >> Yeah, no, there was no such thing. So back in the day, I mean, we had Banyan vines for email, and we had token ring, and I had to set up token ring networks and figure out why that didn't work. Because how many of things were actually sharing it. But then actually just cutting fiber and running fiber cables and dropping them over shelters to plug them in and all crap, they swung it too hard and shattered it and now I got to figure eight Polish this thing and actually should like to see if it works. I mean, that was the network , current cat five cables to run an Ethernet, and then from that I just said, network switches, dumb switches, like those were the most common ones you had. Then actually configuring routers and logging into a Cisco router and actually knowing how to configure that. It was funny because I had gone all the way up, I was the software product manager for a while. So I've gone all the way up the stack, and then two and a half, three years ago, I came across to work with Entity group that became Viqtor Davis. But we went to help one of our customers Avis, and it was like, okay, so we need to fix the network. Okay, I haven't done this in 20 years, but all right, let's get to it. Because it really fundamentally does not change. It's still the network. I mean, I've had people tell me, Well, when we go to containers, we will not have to worry about the network. And I'm like, yeah, you don't I do. >> And that's within programmability is a really interesting, so I think this brings up the certification. What are some of the new things that people should be aware of that come in with the Aviatrix A certification? What are some of the highlights? Can you guys share some of the highlights around the certifications? >> I think some of the importance is that it doesn't need to be vendor specific for network generality or basic networking knowledge, and instead of learning how Cisco does something, or how Palo Alto does something, We need to understand how and why it works as a basic model, and then understand how each vendor has gone about that problem and solved it in a general. That's true in multicloud as well. You can't learn how Cloud networking works without understanding how AWS and Azure and GCP are all slightly the same but slightly different, and some things work and some things don't. I think that's probably the number one take. >> I think having a certification across Clouds is really valuable because we heard the global s eyes as you have a business issues. What does it mean to do that? Is it code, is it networking? Is it configurations of the Aviatrix? what is, he says,the certification but, what is it about the multiCloud that makes it multi networking and multi vendor? >> The easy answer is yes, >> Yes is all of us. >> All of us. So you got to be in general what's good your hands and all You have to be. Right, it takes experience. Because every Cloud vendor has their own certification. Whether that's SOPs and advanced networking and event security, or whatever it might be, yeah, they can take the test, but they have no idea how to figure out what's wrong with that system. The same thing with any certification, but it's really getting your hands in there, and actually having to troubleshoot the problems, actually work the problem, and calm down. It's going to be okay. I mean, because I don't know how many calls I've been on or even had aviators join me on. It's like, okay, so everyone calm down, let's figure out what's happening. It's like, we've looked at that screen three times, looking at it again is not going to solve that problem, right. But at the same time, remaining calm but knowing that it really is, I'm getting a packet from here to go over here, it's not working, so what could be the problem? Actually stepping them through those scenarios, but that's like, you only get that by having to do it, and seeing it, and going through it, and then you get it. >> I have a question, so, I just see it. We started this program maybe six months ago, we're seeing a huge amount of interest. I mean, we're oversubscribed on all the training sessions. We've got people flying from around the country, even with Coronavirus, flying to go to Seattle to go to these events where we're subscribed, is that-- >> A good emerging leader would put there. >> Yeah. So, is that something that you see in your organizations? Are you recommending that to people? Do you see, I mean, I'm just, I guess I'm surprised or not surprised. But I'm really surprised by the demand if you would, of this MultiCloud network certification because there really isn't anything like that. Is that something you guys can comment on? Or do you see the same things in your organization? >> I see from my side, because we operate in a multiCloud environments that really helps and some beneficial for us. >> Yeah, true. I think I would add that networking guys have always needed to use certifications to prove that they know what they know. >> Right. >> It's not good enough to say, Yeah, I know IP addresses or I know how a network works. A couple little check marks or a little letters body writing helps give you validity. So even in our team, we can say, Hey, we're using these certifications to know that you know enough of the basics and enough of the understandings, that you have the tools necessary, right. >> I guess my final question for you guys is, why an ACE certification is relevant, and then second part is share with the live stream folks who aren't yet ACE certified or might want to jump in to be aviatrix certified engineers. Why is it important, so why is it relevant and why should someone want to be a certified aviatrix certified engineer? >> I think my views a little different. I think certification comes from proving that you have the knowledge, not proving that you get a certification to get an army there backwards. So when you've got the training and the understanding and you use that to prove and you can, like, grow your certification list with it, versus studying for a test to get a certification and have no understanding of it. >> Okay, so that who is the right person that look at this and say, I'm qualified, is it a network engineer, is it a DevOps person? What's your view, a little certain. >> I think Cloud is really the answer. It's the, as we talked like the edges getting eroded, so is the network definition getting eroded? We're getting more and more of some network, some DevOps, some security, lots and lots of security, because network is so involved in so many of them. That's just the next progression. >> Do you want to add something there? >> I would say expand that to more automation engineers, because we have those now, so I probably extend it beyond this one. >> Jennifer you want to? >> Well, I think the training classes themselves are helpful, especially the entry level ones for people who may be "Cloud architects" but have never done anything in networking for them to understand why we need those things to really work, whether or not they go through to eventually get a certification is something different. But I really think fundamentally understanding how these things work, it makes them a better architect, makes them better application developer. But even more so as you deploy more of your applications into the Cloud, really getting an understanding, even from people who have traditionally done Onprem networking, they can understand how that's going to work in Cloud. >> Well, I know we've got just under 30 seconds left. I want to get one more question then just one more, for the folks watching that are maybe younger than, that don't have that networking training. From your experiences each of you can answer why should they know about networking, what's the benefit? What's in it for them? Motivate them, share some insights of why they should go a little bit deeper in networking. Stacy, we'll start with you, we'll go then. >> I'll say it's probably fundamental, right? If you want to deliver solutions, networking is the very top. >> I would say if you, fundamental of an operating system running on a machine, how those machines start together is a fundamental changes, something that start from the base and work your way up. >> Jennifer? >> Right, well, I think it's a challenge. Because you've come from top down, now you're going to start looking from bottom up, and you want those different systems to cross-communicate, and say you've built something, and you're overlapping IP space, note that that doesn't happen. But how can I actually make that still operate without having to re IP re platform. Just like those challenges, like those younger developers or assistant engineers can really start to get their hands around and understand those complexities and bring that forward in their career. >> They get to know then how the pipes are working, and they're got to know it--it's the plumbing. >> That's right, >> They got to know how it works, and how to code it. >> That's right. >> Awesome, thank you guys for great insights, ACE Certified Engineers, also known as ACEs, give them a round of applause. (audience clapping) (upbeat music) >> Thank you, okay. All right, that concludes my portion. Thank you, Steve Thanks for having me. >> John, thank you very much, that was fantastic. Everybody round of applause for John Furrier. (audience applauding) Yeah, so great event, great event. I'm not going to take long, we got lunch outside for the people here, just a couple of things. Just to call the action, right? So we saw the ACEs, for those of you out of the stream here, become a certified, right, it's great for your career, it's great for not knowledge, is fantastic. It's not just an aviator's thing, it's going to teach you about Cloud networking, MultiCloud networking, with a little bit of aviatrix, exactly like the Cisco CCIE program was for IP network, that type of the thing, that's number one. Second thing is learning, right? So there's a link up there to join the community. Again like I started this, this is a community, this is the kickoff to this community, and it's a movement. So go to community.avh.com, starting a community of multiCloud. So get get trained, learn. I'd say the next thing is we're doing over 100 seminars across the United States and also starting into Europe soon, we will come out and we'll actually spend a couple hours and talk about architecture, and talk about those beginning things. For those of you on the livestream in here as well, we're coming to a city near you, go to one of those events, it's a great way to network with other people that are in the industry, as well as to start alone and get on that MultiCloud journey. Then I'd say the last thing is, we haven't talked a lot about what Aviatrix does here, and that's intentional. We want you leaving with wanting to know more, and schedule, get with us and schedule a multi hour architecture workshop session. So we sit down with customers, and we talk about where they're at in that journey, and more importantly, where they're going, and define that end state architecture from networking, computer, storage, everything. Everything you've heard today, everybody panel kept talking about architecture, talking about operations. Those are the types of things that we solve, we help you define that canonical architecture, that system architecture, that's yours. So many of our customers, they have three by five, plotted lucid charts, architecture drawings, and it's the customer name slash Aviatrix, network architecture, and they put it on their whiteboard. That's the most valuable thing they get from us. So this becomes their 20 year network architecture drawing that they don't do anything without talking to us and look at that architecture. That's what we do in these multi hour workshop sessions with customers, and that's super, super powerful. So if you're interested, definitely call us, and let's schedule that with our team. So anyway, I just want to thank everybody on the livestream. Thank everybody here. Hopefully it was it was very useful. I think it was, and Join the movement, and for those of you here, join us for lunch, and thank you very much. (audience applauding) (upbeat music)

our Studios in the heart of Silicon Valley Palo Alto California this is a cute conversation hello and welcome to the cube studios in Palo Alto California for another cube conversation where we go in-depth with thought leaders driving innovation across the tech industry I'm your host Peter Burris almost everybody's heard of the term black hat and white hat and it constitutes groups of individuals that are either attacking or defending security challenges it's been an arms race for the past 10 20 30 years as the world has become more digital and an arms race that many of us are concern that black hats appear to have the upper hand but there's new developments in technology and new classes of tooling that are actually racing to the aid of white hats and could very well upset that equilibrium in favor of the white hats to have that conversation about the Ascension of the white hats we're joined by Derek manky who's chief security insights and global threat alliances lead at Ford Annette dereck thanks for joining us for another cube conversation it's always a pleasure speaking yeah all right Derrick let's start what's going on afforda labs at four Dannette so 2019 we've seen a ton of development a lot pretty much on track with our predictions when we talked last year obviously a big increase in volume thanks offense of automation we're also seeing low volume attacks that are disrupting big business models I'm talking about targeted ransom attacks right you know criminals that are able to get into networks caused millions of dollars of damages thanks to critical revenue streams being out usually in the public sector we've seen a lot of this we've seen a rise in sophistication the adversary's are not slowing down AET s advanced evasion techniques are on the rise and so you know to do this and for the guard loves to be able to track this and map this we're not just relying on blogs anymore and you know 40 50 page white papers so we're actually looking at that playbooks now mapping the adversary's understanding their tools techniques procedures how they're operating why they're operating who are they hitting on and what what might be their next move so that's a big development on the intelligence sides here all right so I mentioned upfront this notion that the white hats may be ascending I'm implying a prediction here tell us a little bit about what we see on the horizon for that concept of the white hats ascending and specifically why is there reason to be optimistic yeah so as it's it's it's been gloomy for you for decades like he said and for many reasons right and I think those reasons there are no secrets I mean cyber criminals and black hats have always been able to move very you know with with agility right I'm sorry crime has no borders it's often a slap on the wrist that they get they can do a million things are on they don't care there's no ethics and quite frankly no no rules by right on the white hand side we've always had rules binding us we've had to we've had to take due care and we've had to move methodically which slows us down so a lot of that comes in place because of frameworks because of technology as well having to move um after it's in able to it with frameworks so specifically with you know making corrective action and things like that so those are the challenges that we face against but you know like thinking ahead to to 2020 particularly with the use of artificial intelligence everybody talks about AI you know it's it's impacted our daily lives but when it comes to cybersecurity on the white hat side um you know a proper AI and machine learning model it takes time you think it can take you years in fact in our case in our experience about four to five years before we can actually roll it out to production but the good news is that we have been investing and when I say we I'm just talking to the industry in general and wait we've been investing into this technology because quite frankly we've had to it takes a lot of data it takes a lot of smart minds a lot of investment a lot of processing power and that foundation has now been set over the last five years if we look at the blackcats it's not the case and why because they've been enjoying living off the land on a low-hanging truth path of least resistance because they've been able to so one of the things that's changing that equilibrium then is the availability of AI as you said it could take four or five years to get to a point we've actually got useful AI is it can have an impact I guess that means that we've been working on these things for four or five years what's the state of the art with AI as it pertains to security and are we seeing different phases of development start to emerge as we gain more experience with these technologies yeah absolutely and it's quite exciting right ai isn't this universal brain that's that's always good the world's problems that everyone thinks it might right it's very specific it relies on machine learning models each machine learning model is very specific to its task right I mean you know voice learning technology versus autonomous vehicle driving versus cybersecurity it's very different when it comes to the swimming purposes so so in essence the way I look at it you know there's three generations of AI we have generation 1 which was the past generation 2 which is a current where we are now and the generation 3 is where we're going so generation 1 was pretty simple right it was just a central processing lyrtle of machine learning model that'll take in data they'll correlate that data and then take action based off of it some simple inputs simple output right generation to where we're currently sitting is more advances looking at pattern recognition more advanced inputs are distributed models where we have the you know sensor is lying around networks I'm talking about even IOT devices security appliances and so forth but still report up to this centralized brain that's learning and acting on things but where things get really interesting moving forward in 2020 gets into this third generation where you have especially you know moving towards about computer sorry I'm computing where you have localized learning notes that are actually processing and learning so you can think of them as these mini brains instead of having this monolithic centralized brain you have individual learning modes individual brains doing their own machine learning that are actually connected to each other learning from each other speaking to each other it's a very powerful model we actually refer to this as federated machine learning in our industry so we've been first phase we simply use statistics to correlate events take action yeah now we're doing exceptions pattern recognition or exceptions and building patterns and in the future we're going to be able to further distribute at that so that increasingly the AI is going to work with other AI so that the aggregate this federated aggregate gets better I got that right yeah absolutely and what's the advantage of that a couple of things I'm it's very similar to the human immune system right I mean if you have you know if I were to cut my finger on my hand what's gonna happen well localized white blood cells get localized not nothing from a foreign entity or further away in my body are gonna come to the rescue and start healing right it's the same idea it's because it's interconnected within the nervous system it's the same idea of this federated machine learning right if security appliance is to detect a threat locally on-site its able to alert other security appliances so that they can actually take action on this and learn from that as well so connected machine learning models it means that that you know by properly implementing these these AI this federated AI machine learning models in an organization that that system is able to actually in an auto you may pick up what that threat is be able to act on that threat which means it's able to respond to these threats quicker shut them down to the point where it can be you know virtually instantaneous right before you know that the damage is done and bleeding starts happening so the common time safe common baseline is constantly getting better even as we're giving opportunities for local local managers to perform the work in response to local conditions so that takes us to the next notion of we've got this federated a la a I on the horizon how are people how is the role of people security professionals going to change what kind of recipes are they going to follow to ensure that they are working in a maximally productive way with these new capabilities these new federated capabilities especially as we think about the introduction of 5g and greater density of devices and faster speeds and lower latencies yeah so you know that the the the the world of cyber computer cyber security has always been incredibly complex so we're trying to simplify that and that's where again this this federated machine learning comes into place particularly with playbooks so you know if we look at 2019 and where we're going in 2020 we've put a lot of a lot of groundwork quite frankly into pioneering the work of playbooks right so when I say playbooks I'm talking about adversary's playbook knowing the offense knowing the tools techniques procedures the way that these cybercrime operations are moving right and the black hats are moving the more that we can understand that the more we can predict their next move and that centralized language right once you know that offense we can start to create automated Blue Team playbook so defensive play books that a human that that's a security technology can automatically integrate and respond to it but to getting back to your question we can actually create human readable sea cecil guides that can actually say look there's a threat here's why it's a problem here's here here are the gaps in your security that we've identified if you're some recommended course of action as my deity right so that's that's where the humans and the machines are really going to be worked working together and and quite frankly moving speed being able to do that a machine level but also being being able to simplify a complex landscape that is where we can actually gain traction right that this is part of that ascendancy of the white hat because because it's it's allowing us to move in a more agile nature it's an it's allowing us to gain ground against heat actors and quite frankly it allows us to start disrupting their business model right it's more resilient Network in the future this leads to the whole notion of self-healing networks as well that quite frankly just makes it a big pain it disrupts your business model it forces them to go back to the drawing board - well it also seems as though when we start talking about 5g that the speeds as I said the speeds the dentin see the reduced latency the the potential for a bad thing to propagate very quickly demands that we have a more consistent coherent response at both the Machine level but also at the people level we 5g into this conversation what's what will be the impact of 5g on how these playbooks and AI start to come together over the next few years yeah it's it's it's it's gonna be very impactful it's gonna take a couple of years and we're just at the dawn of 5g right now but if you think of 5g you're talking about a lot more volume essentially as we move to the future we're entering into the age of five G and edge computing and 5g and edge computing is gonna start eating the cloud in a sense that more of that processing power that was in the cloud is starting to shift now towards edge computing right this is that on-premises so it is gonna allow models like I was talking about federated machine learning models at first from the the white hats point of view which I again I think we are in the driver's seat and in a better you know more advantageous position here because we have more experience again like I said we've been doing this for years where the black hats quite frankly haven't yes they're toying with it but not to the same level at scale that we have but you know you know it's I'm always a realist this isn't a completely rosy picture I mean there it is optimistic that we are able to get this upper hand it has to be done right but if we think about the weaponization of 5g that's also very large problem right last year we're talking about sworn networks right the idea of sworn networks is a whole bunch of devices that can connect to each other share intelligence and then act to do something like a large-scale DDoS attack that's absolutely in the in the realm of possibility when it comes to the weaponization of 5g as well so one of the things I guess the last question I want to ask you is you noted that these play books incorporate the human element in ways that are uniquely human so having C so readable recipes for how people have to respond does that also elevate the conversation with the business and does allows us to do a better job of understanding risk pricing risk and appropriately investing to manage and assure the business against risk in the right way absolutely absolutely it does yeah yeah because the more you know about going back to the playbook some more you know about the office and their tools you know you the more you know about how much of a danger it is what sort of targets they're after right I mean if they're just going trying to look to to to collect a little bit of information on you know to do some reconnaissance that first phase attack might not cause a lot of damage but if this group is knowing to go in hit hard steal intellectual property shut down critical business streams to do s that in the past we know and we've seen has caused four or five million dollars from one you know from one breach that's a very good way to start classifying risk so yeah I mean it's all about really understanding the picture first on the offense and that's exactly what these automated playbook guides are going to be doing on the on the on the blue team and again not only from a CSE suite perspective certainly that on the human level but the nice thing about the play books is because we've done the research the threat hunting and understood this you know from a machine level it's also able to put a lot of those automated let's say day-to-day decisions making security operation center is so I'm talking about like sect DevOps much more efficient to so he's talking about more density at the edge amongst these devices I also want to bring back one last thought here and that is you said that historically some of the black hats have been able to act with a degree of impunity they haven't necessarily been hit hard there a lot of slapping on the wrist as I think you said talk about how the playbooks and AI is going to allow them to more appropriately share data with others that can help both now but also in some of the forensics and the the enforcement side namely the the legal and policing world how are we going to share the responsibility or how is that going to change over the next few years to incorporate some of the folks that actually can then turn a defense into a legal attack illumination this is what I call it right so again if we look at the current state we've made great strides great progress you know working with law enforcement so we've set up public private sector relationships we need to do that have security experts working with law enforcement law enforcement working on there and to train process prosecutors to understand cybercrime and so forth that foundation has been set but it's still slow-moving you know there's only a limited amount of playbooks right now it takes a lot of work to unearth and and and do to really move the needle what we need to do again like we're talking about is to integrate artificial intelligence with playbooks the more that we understand about groups the more that we do this threat illumination the more we have cover about them the more we know about them and by doing that we can start to form predictive models right basically I always say old habits die hard so you know if an attacker goes in hits a network and they're successful following a certain sequence of patterns they're likely going to follow that say that's that same sequence on their next victim or their next target so the more that we understand about that the more that we can forecast eight from a mitigation standpoint but the also by the same token the more correlation we're doing on these playbooks the more machine learning we're doing on this playbooks the more we were able to do attribution and attribution is the Holy Grail it's always been the toughest thing to do when it comes to research but by combining the framework that we're using with playbooks and AI machine learning it's a very very powerful recipe and that's that's what we need to get right and move forward in the right direction Derrick McKey ordinance chief of security insights and threat alliances thanks again for being on the cube it's a pleasure anytime happy to talk and I want to thank you for joining us for another cube conversation I'm Peter Burris see you next time [Music]

our Studios in the heart of Silicon Valley Palo Alto California this is a cute conversation hello and welcome to the cube studios in Palo Alto California for another cube conversation where we go in-depth with thought leaders driving innovation across the tech industry I'm your host Peter Burris almost everybody's heard of the term black hat and white hat and it constitutes groups of individuals that are either attacking or defending security challenges it's been an arms race for the past 10 20 30 years as the world has become more digital and an arms race that many of us are concern that black hats appear to have the upper hand but there's new developments in technology and new classes of tooling that are actually racing to the aid of white hats and could very well upset that equilibrium in favor of the white hats to have that conversation about the Ascension of the white hats we're joined by Derek manky who's chief security insights and global threat alliances lead at Ford Annette dereck thanks for joining us for another cube conversation it's always a pleasure speaking yeah all right Derrick let's start what's going on afforda labs at four Dannette so 2019 we've seen a ton of development a lot pretty much on track with our predictions when we talked last year obviously a big increase in volume thanks offense of automation we're also seeing low volume attacks that are disrupting big business models I'm talking about targeted ransom attacks right you know criminals that are able to get into networks caused millions of dollars of damages thanks to critical revenue streams being out usually in the public sector we've seen a lot of this we've seen a rise in sophistication the adversary's are not slowing down AET s advanced evasion techniques are on the rise and so you know to do this and for the guard loves to be able to track this and map this we're not just relying on blogs anymore and you know 40 50 page white papers so we're actually looking at that playbooks now mapping the adversary's understanding their tools techniques procedures how they're operating why they're operating who are they hitting on and what what might be their next move so that's a big development on the intelligence sides here all right so I mentioned upfront this notion that the white hats may be ascending I'm implying a prediction here tell us a little bit about what we see on the horizon for that concept of the white hats ascending and specifically why is there reason to be optimistic yeah so as it's it's it's been gloomy for you for decades like he said and for many reasons right and I think those reasons there are no secrets I mean cyber criminals and black hats have always been able to move very you know with with agility right I'm sorry crime has no borders it's often a slap on the wrist that they get they can do a million things are on they don't care there's no ethics and quite frankly no no rules by right on the white hand side we've always had rules binding us we've had to we've had to take due care and we've had to move methodically which slows us down so a lot of that comes in place because of frameworks because of technology as well having to move um after it's in able to it with frameworks so specifically with you know making corrective action and things like that so those are the challenges that we face against but you know like thinking ahead to to 2020 particularly with the use of artificial intelligence everybody talks about AI you know it's it's impacted our daily lives but when it comes to cybersecurity on the white hat side um you know a proper AI and machine learning model it takes time you think it can take you years in fact in our case in our experience about four to five years before we can actually roll it out to production but the good news is that we have been investing and when I say we I'm just talking to the industry in general and wait we've been investing into this technology because quite frankly we've had to it takes a lot of data it takes a lot of smart minds a lot of investment a lot of processing power and that foundation has now been set over the last five years if we look at the blackcats it's not the case and why because they've been enjoying living off the land on a low-hanging truth path of least resistance because they've been able to so one of the things that's changing that equilibrium then is the availability of AI as you said it could take four or five years to get to a point we've actually got useful AI is it can have an impact I guess that means that we've been working on these things for four or five years what's the state of the art with AI as it pertains to security and are we seeing different phases of development start to emerge as we gain more experience with these technologies yeah absolutely and it's quite exciting right ai isn't this universal brain that's that's always good the world's problems that everyone thinks it might right it's very specific it relies on machine learning models each machine learning model is very specific to its task right I mean you know voice learning technology versus autonomous vehicle driving versus cybersecurity it's very different when it comes to the swimming purposes so so in essence the way I look at it you know there's three generations of AI we have generation 1 which was the past generation 2 which is a current where we are now and the generation 3 is where we're going so generation 1 was pretty simple right it was just a central processing lyrtle of machine learning model that'll take in data they'll correlate that data and then take action based off of it some simple inputs simple output right generation to where we're currently sitting is more advances looking at pattern recognition more advanced inputs are distributed models where we have the you know sensor is lying around networks I'm talking about even IOT devices security appliances and so forth but still report up to this centralized brain that's learning and acting on things but where things get really interesting moving forward in 2020 gets into this third generation where you have especially you know moving towards about computer sorry I'm computing where you have localized learning notes that are actually processing and learning so you can think of them as these mini brains instead of having this monolithic centralized brain you have individual learning modes individual brains doing their own machine learning that are actually connected to each other learning from each other speaking to each other it's a very powerful model we actually refer to this as federated machine learning in our industry so we've been first phase we simply use statistics to correlate events take action yeah now we're doing exceptions pattern recognition or exceptions and building patterns and in the future we're going to be able to further distribute at that so that increasingly the AI is going to work with other AI so that the aggregate this federated aggregate gets better I got that right yeah absolutely and what's the advantage of that a couple of things I'm it's very similar to the human immune system right I mean if you have you know if I were to cut my finger on my hand what's gonna happen well localized white blood cells get localized not nothing from a foreign entity or further away in my body are gonna come to the rescue and start healing right it's the same idea it's because it's interconnected within the nervous system it's the same idea of this federated machine learning right if security appliance is to detect a threat locally on-site its able to alert other security appliances so that they can actually take action on this and learn from that as well so connected machine learning models it means that that you know by properly implementing these these AI this federated AI machine learning models in an organization that that system is able to actually in an auto you may pick up what that threat is be able to act on that threat which means it's able to respond to these threats quicker shut them down to the point where it can be you know virtually instantaneous right before you know that the damage is done and bleeding starts happening so the common time safe common baseline is constantly getting better even as we're giving opportunities for local local managers to perform the work in response to local conditions so that takes us to the next notion of we've got this federated a la a I on the horizon how are people how is the role of people security professionals going to change what kind of recipes are they going to follow to ensure that they are working in a maximally productive way with these new capabilities these new federated capabilities especially as we think about the introduction of 5g and greater density of devices and faster speeds and lower latencies yeah so you know that the the the the world of cyber computer cyber security has always been incredibly complex so we're trying to simplify that and that's where again this this federated machine learning comes into place particularly with playbooks so you know if we look at 2019 and where we're going in 2020 we've put a lot of a lot of groundwork quite frankly into pioneering the work of playbooks right so when I say playbooks I'm talking about adversary's playbook knowing the offense knowing the tools techniques procedures the way that these cybercrime operations are moving right and the black hats are moving the more that we can understand that the more we can predict their next move and that centralized language right once you know that offense we can start to create automated Blue Team playbook so defensive play books that a human that that's a security technology can automatically integrate and respond to it but to getting back to your question we can actually create human readable sea cecil guides that can actually say look there's a threat here's why it's a problem here's here here are the gaps in your security that we've identified if you're some recommended course of action as my deity right so that's that's where the humans and the machines are really going to be worked working together and and quite frankly moving speed being able to do that a machine level but also being being able to simplify a complex landscape that is where we can actually gain traction right that this is part of that ascendancy of the white hat because because it's it's allowing us to move in a more agile nature it's an it's allowing us to gain ground against heat actors and quite frankly it allows us to start disrupting their business model right it's more resilient Network in the future this leads to the whole notion of self-healing networks as well that quite frankly just makes it a big pain it disrupts your business model it forces them to go back to the drawing board - well it also seems as though when we start talking about 5g that the speeds as I said the speeds the dentin see the reduced latency the the potential for a bad thing to propagate very quickly demands that we have a more consistent coherent response at both the Machine level but also at the people level we 5g into this conversation what's what will be the impact of 5g on how these playbooks and AI start to come together over the next few years yeah it's it's it's it's gonna be very impactful it's gonna take a couple of years and we're just at the dawn of 5g right now but if you think of 5g you're talking about a lot more volume essentially as we move to the future we're entering into the age of five G and edge computing and 5g and edge computing is gonna start eating the cloud in a sense that more of that processing power that was in the cloud is starting to shift now towards edge computing right this is that on-premises so it is gonna allow models like I was talking about federated machine learning models at first from the the white hats point of view which I again I think we are in the driver's seat and in a better you know more advantageous position here because we have more experience again like I said we've been doing this for years where the black hats quite frankly haven't yes they're toying with it but not to the same level at scale that we have but you know you know it's I'm always a realist this isn't a completely rosy picture I mean there it is optimistic that we are able to get this upper hand it has to be done right but if we think about the weaponization of 5g that's also very large problem right last year we're talking about sworn networks right the idea of sworn networks is a whole bunch of devices that can connect to each other share intelligence and then act to do something like a large-scale DDoS attack that's absolutely in the in the realm of possibility when it comes to the weaponization of 5g as well so one of the things I guess the last question I want to ask you is you noted that these play books incorporate the human element in ways that are uniquely human so having C so readable recipes for how people have to respond does that also elevate the conversation with the business and does allows us to do a better job of understanding risk pricing risk and appropriately investing to manage and assure the business against risk in the right way absolutely absolutely it does yeah yeah because the more you know about going back to the playbook some more you know about the office and their tools you know you the more you know about how much of a danger it is what sort of targets they're after right I mean if they're just going trying to look to to to collect a little bit of information on you know to do some reconnaissance that first phase attack might not cause a lot of damage but if this group is knowing to go in hit hard steal intellectual property shut down critical business streams to do s that in the past we know and we've seen has caused four or five million dollars from one you know from one breach that's a very good way to start classifying risk so yeah I mean it's all about really understanding the picture first on the offense and that's exactly what these automated playbook guides are going to be doing on the on the on the blue team and again not only from a CSE suite perspective certainly that on the human level but the nice thing about the play books is because we've done the research the threat hunting and understood this you know from a machine level it's also able to put a lot of those automated let's say day-to-day decisions making security operation center is so I'm talking about like sect DevOps much more efficient to so he's talking about more density at the edge amongst these devices I also want to bring back one last thought here and that is you said that historically some of the black hats have been able to act with a degree of impunity they haven't necessarily been hit hard there a lot of slapping on the wrist as I think you said talk about how the playbooks and AI is going to allow them to more appropriately share data with others that can help both now but also in some of the forensics and the the enforcement side namely the the legal and policing world how are we going to share the responsibility or how is that going to change over the next few years to incorporate some of the folks that actually can then turn a defense into a legal attack illumination this is what I call it right so again if we look at the current state we've made great strides great progress you know working with law enforcement so we've set up public private sector relationships we need to do that have security experts working with law enforcement law enforcement working on there and to train process prosecutors to understand cybercrime and so forth that foundation has been set but it's still slow-moving you know there's only a limited amount of playbooks right now it takes a lot of work to unearth and and and do to really move the needle what we need to do again like we're talking about is to integrate artificial intelligence with playbooks the more that we understand about groups the more that we do this threat illumination the more we have cover about them the more we know about them and by doing that we can start to form predictive models right basically I always say old habits die hard so you know if an attacker goes in hits a network and they're successful following a certain sequence of patterns they're likely going to follow that say that's that same sequence on their next victim or their next target so the more that we understand about that the more that we can forecast eight from a mitigation standpoint but the also by the same token the more correlation we're doing on these playbooks the more machine learning we're doing on this playbooks the more we were able to do attribution and attribution is the Holy Grail it's always been the toughest thing to do when it comes to research but by combining the framework that we're using with playbooks and AI machine learning it's a very very powerful recipe and that's that's what we need to get right and move forward in the right direction Derrick McKey ordinance chief of security insights and threat alliances thanks again for being on the cube it's a pleasure anytime happy to talk and I want to thank you for joining us for another cube conversation I'm Peter Burris see you next time [Music]

>>live from San Francisco. It's the Q covering Micron Insight 2019 to You by Micron. >>Welcome back, everybody. We hear a Pier 27 in San Francisco. Beautiful day. David Floor is my co host on Day Volante, and this is Micron Inside. 2019. Jeff Baylor is here. He's the corporate vice president of the embedded business unit at Micron. Jeff, great to see you again. >>Thank you. Nice to be here >>so love to talk about autos. I o. T Edge. Use cases to talk about the focus of your team. Let's start there. Yeah, >>sure. So the embedded business to point. It's absolutely focused on the automotive industry's way. Call industrial markets. So factory automation, surveillance and stolen a swell as a consumer electronics businesses on we're really in across all those sort of focused on how connectivity and compute is changing inside of those. And, of course, how that drives memory. >>I mean, yeah, memory and storage. They hide in places that we use every day. You don't see them, but if they weren't there, you wouldn't be able to use all these devices. They wouldn't be as life changing as they are. So you know you mentioned some of the consumer stuff. You know what the big trends that are driving your business? Well, I do >>think it is absolutely. That's sort of the ubiquity of connectivity. First of all, and then, sort of the ubiquity of compute has enabled all of these what used to be sort of isolated applications to now be connected and doing a whole lot more analytics inside that machine. Do you think about intelligence in your thermostat on the wall? You think about intelligence, obviously, in the automotive business, where safety features and so on are using so much more electron ICs and a I machine learning. And that's happening really in every application, whether it's the smart speakers at home, voice control on your TV and so on and so forth. All of those drive more intelligence, more connectivity and then more memory and storage behind that. >>When people talk about automotive, of course, everybody wants to talk about autonomous vehicles. I love to talk about autonomous vehicles, but there's so much action going on in today's vehicles dozens and dozens of microprocessors throwing off all kinds of data. So give us the update on the automotive industry. >>Yeah, you're exactly right. I mean, autonomous gets the headlines and it will for several more years just be headlines more or less right? And the real story is what we call eight ass or advanced driver assistant system. So things like lane departure warning, lane departure, keeping things like auto emergency braking those those sort of much simpler, easier problems to solve are still very compute intensive on. So are driving a huge growth and electronics on memory of storage inside the car. The other major part of the car market in the automotive market is what we call infotainment, sort of the center console. More and more large screens going into that more high function capabilities being integrated in that whether it's navigation or streaming media service is and all of those air driving again a much richer mix that's required >>for those applications. I was at the arm conference and they were talking about automotive and some of the challenges, one of the most fascinating areas they were talking about. How do you make something that will last for 20 years in the car on make it such that if it does go wrong that it that it could recover seamless less. Can you talk about some of the technologies that >>are sort of two parts to that? Unpack a little bit? First through? What does it take to succeed in automotive? First of all, it's all about quality. Yeah, right. It is quality, quality, quality location, location, location. It's quality. It's it's reducing and eliminating defense fundamentally at the end of the day and so inside of our process. Design inside of our technology designed our product designs. Our product manufacturing flows are all designed to sort of fundamentally improve and continue to improve the quality level because at the end of the day, that is what what makes or breaks you in the car. As soon as you solve that, you know, small problem. Next problem is longevity and stability of that solution, because the design cycle itself is shortening and automotive. But it's a very long design cycle, and then the life cycle in automotive is still very, very long. I mean, the average car on the road in the U. S. Is 12 or 15 years old, right, and that needs to both continue to be viable but also often need toe continue shipping that product. It's gonna shipment volumes or have spares and replace. So So we have a strategy that sort of focused on both bringing those leading edge technologies that Micron has into automotive as soon as possible and that timeline is shrinking. But then also having a very long life manufacturing strategy to continue to provide those for so long. >>So you're certainly a leader in automotive. You might even be the leader. I'm not sure I have the data, but what is it you mentioned? You know, quality and those other factors. What is it that's allowing you to do so well in automotive? >>So So we are the beater for sure. We're about 40% market share, which is a little more than three times as big as the nearest competitors, right, So leader by far, really an automotive. And it's been a very long time that we're in this industry and very focused on. So it is. It is about the product mix and bringing in particular lately leading edge technology into that story. You know, we are at the very beginnings of LP five, the low power GDR five generation, where the very beginnings of that rolling out into mobile applications, its primary markets at the same time, almost literally the same time. Way air sampling and providing that into our automotive customers and our automotive partners to start beginning building their systems around L P. Five. So that time to adopt leading edge technology is rowing is shrinking very rapidly. And so we're able to provide that leading edge Tech started, coupled with that long life solution and then one of the areas, when you think about being in a 40% market share position, way air investing tremendously in sort of partnering with the customers around, essentially defining and driving the innovation that they need to deliver So way have a number of labs that we've established customer facing labs that were able to bring customers and even our customers customers. So the Auto am is directly into those labs to start looking at usage models and architectural sort of feasibility and optimization kinds of things that we could then plan into our road map to follow two or three years later. After that, >>a lot of domain expertise there, so tremendous I said the Derrick Dicker that Micron has a very large observation space. You sell to a lot of different channels and I want to ask you about industrial I ot David night. We spent a lot of time in the Enterprise and we see a lot of I t company saying, Hey, here's a box. We're gonna throw it over. We're gonna go dominate the edge anywhere you talkto operations, technology, professions there like No, we're talking about machines and equipment and it's like this whole different parlance and language. So what are you seeing? Just in terms of the ecosystem, how it's developing the sort of analog going to digital And that whole explosion? Yeah, >>again, Industrial is extremely broad market, and it means a 1,000,000,000 things toe people. Right? So So, one of the first things we have to do is sort of narrow the field a little bit, at least into specific verticals and specific areas. Way have the right product mix and opportunity, right? So, for example, in the in the space of factory automation, it's a little bit what you're just saying the operational technology guys are trying to figure out how they're gonna drive efficiency, drive productivity inside a factory on, and that is often a question of instrument ing, and putting in my crown is doing a lot of this sort of smart manufacturing deployment. Putting this sensor network multiple cameras, multiple high resolution cameras, audio sensors, accelerometers, sort of sensors and capturing all of that sensor data to Dr Things like better predictive maintenance, better sort of yield detection or excursion detection kind of capability. So you could tell this machine, you know, seven days, five days out of the week Sounds like this. But last night at 10 o'clock, it started sounding different way. Don't know what it means necessarily, but we can detect that. And that's where all of the A I and Machine Learning is now being applied to say. And that means it's due for a P M. About this particular portion of >>what about security at the edge, obviously a hot topic in the Enterprise on every C. I ose mind what's happening with security in Io ti industrial out in the edge. Yeah, I think >>to some extent, security in the I. O. T. I think is, is why I ot is where it is in the hype cycles. Maybe it's sort of still at the bottom of one of these types cycles, meaning solving that increasing security problem, that cyber security problem that the edge is really a big problem. You saw you know the hacks a few years back of the Jeep charity. You saw the hack two years back on surveillance cameras. All these cameras moving toe i p surveillance cameras means they're now connected and open to the world. Dispersed. He just announced last week in a report that basically showed I ot specific hacks up seven fold or seven fold this year after being up tenfold last year. So it's absolutely a growing problem for people thinking about deploying again. Connectivity is a great tool in a great weapon, Depending. And I was so so. One of my crown is doing is is way. >>Have a >>solution called authentic, which is essentially a cybersecurity, is a secure element built into the non volatile memory that goes in each one of these systems. So today, security is not a one chip problem. It is a full and and system problem. And so what we're tryingto build with that is the capability at a very sort of lowest level in the system right where the code is right where the four part of the system is to protect that in the memory itself and sort of a test that that is safe and secure. And then the system can build out about around that. And that sort of simple boot device, in the case of a nor device or Anand device is in every embedded application >>right in the world, >>right? I mean, you think about you go back a long way, Stuxnet. You know, 10 plus years ago with a seaman's controller, which was the and now you think about fast forward, how much Maur infrastructure is out there? How much more complicated it is, It's ah, it's a scary situation is Oh, it is so that we think that's a >>big opportunity. And we're making the announcement later, uh, later in the show today, on an extension of what we're doing already in that space. >>I know you're working with other vendors. People like >>me are worry with Yes, >>it is really >>an end to end. >>This is really an end to an an ecosystem >>activity, for sure, because again, arm is a great example. You know, all of the S o. C. Vendors. You know, everybody in this industry has some slice of the of the rules. Let's say to figure out how they're going to secure this system and we're tryingto build a basic building block that they can then build on >>that when we started this morning was really quiet. But the crowd is rolling in. Now there's a buzz that you can hear, hear. The key was excited to be here, Jeff. Thanks very much for coming on. The king here to see you again. >>Very much nicer here. >>All right. Keep it right to everybody. We're gonna be taking a short break. We'll be back. Day long coverage wall to Wall of Micron inside. 2019. You're watching the cube.

>>Live from San Francisco. It's the cube covering my groin. Insight 2019 brought to you by micron. >>Welcome back to pier 27 in San Francisco. I'm your host Dave Vellante with my cohost David foyer and this is the cube, the leader in live tech coverage. This is our live coverage of micron insight 2019 we were here last year talking about some of the big picture trends. Derek ticker is here, he's the general manager and vice president of the storage business unit at micro and great to see you again. Thank you so much for having me here. Welcome. So you know we talk about the super powers a lot, you know, cloud data, AI and these new workloads that are coming in. And this, this, I was talking to David earlier in our kickoff like how real is AI? And it feels like it's real. It's not just a bunch of vendor industry hype and it comes in a lot of different forms. Derek, what are you seeing in terms of the new workloads and the big trends in artificial intelligence? >>I think just on the, on the front end, you guys are absolutely right. The, the role of artificial intelligence in the world is, uh, is absolutely transformational. I was sitting in a meeting in the last couple of days and somebody was walking through a storyline that I have to share with you. That's a perfect example of why this is becoming mainstream. In Southern California at a children's hospital, there were a set of parents that had a few days old baby and this baby was going through seizures and no one could figure out what it was. And during the periods of time of the seizure, the child's brain activity was zero. There was no brain activity whatsoever. And what they did is they performed a CT scan, found nothing, check for infections, found nothing. And can you imagine a parent just sitting there dealing with their child and that situation, you feel hopeless. >>This particular institution is so much on the bleeding edge. They've been investing in personalized medicine and essentially what they were able to do was extract a sample of blood from that sample of blood within a matter of minutes. They were able to run an algorithm that could sift through 5 million genetic variants to go find a potential match for a genetic variant that existed within this child. They found one that was 0.01% of the population found a tiny, tiny, call it a less than a needle in the haystack. And what they were able to do is translate that actual insight into a treatment. And that treatment wasn't invasive. It didn't involve surgery. It involves supplements and providing this shower, just the nutrients that he needed to combat this genetic variant. But all of this was enabled through technology and through artificial intelligence in general. And a big part of the show that we're here at today is to talk about the industry coming together and discussing what are the great advances that are happening in that domain. >>It's just, it's super exciting to see something that touches that close to our life. I love that story and that's, that's why I love this event. I mean, well, obviously micron memories, you know, DRAM, NAND, et cetera, et cetera. But this event is all about connecting to the impacts on our lives. You take, you take that, I used to ask this question a lot of when will machines be able to make better diagnoses than, than doctors. And I think, you know, a lot people say, well they already can, but the real answer is it's really about the augmentation. Yeah. You know, machines helping doctors get to that, you know, very, you know, uh, a small probability 0.1001% yes. And it'd be able to act on it. That's really how AI is affecting our lives every day. >> Wholeheartedly agree. And actually that's a, that's a big part of our mission. >>Our mission is to transform how the world uses information to enrich life. That's the heart and soul of what you just described. Yeah. And we're actually, we're super excited about what we see happening in storage as a result of this. Um, one of the, one of the things that we've noticed as we've gotten engaged with a broad host of customers in the industry is that there's a lot of focus on artificial intelligence workloads being handled based on memory and memory bandwidth and larger amounts of memory being required. If you look at systems of today versus systems of tomorrow, based on the types of workloads that are evolving from machine learning, the need for DRAM is growing dramatically. Multiple factors, we see that, but what nobody ever talks about or rarely talks about is what's going on in the storage subsystem and one of the biggest issues that we've found over time or challenges that exist is as you look at the AI workloads going back to 2014 the storage bandwidth required was a few megabytes per second and called tens of, but if you just look every year, over time we're exceeding at gigabyte, two gigabytes of bandwidth required out of the storage subsystem. >>Forget the memory. The storage is being used as a cash in it flushes, but once you get into a case where you actually want to do more work on a given asset, which of course everybody wants to do from a TCO perspective, you need super high performance and capability. One of the things that that we uncovered was by delivering an SSD. This is our 9,300 drive. We actually balanced both the read IOPS and the ride IOPS at three gigs per second. And what we allow to have happened is not just what you can imagine as almost sequential work. You load up a bunch of data into a, into a training machine, the machine goes and processes on it, comes back with a result, load more data in by actually having a balanced read and write a model. Your ingest times go faster. So while you're working on a sequence, you can actually ingest more data into the system and it creates this overall efficiency. And it's these types of things that I think provided a great opportunity for innovation in the storage domain for these types of that's working >> requiring new architectures in storage, right? I mean, yeah, >>I mean, th th so one of the things that's happened in, in bringing SSDs in is that the old protocols were very slow, etc. And now we all the new protocols within in Vme and potentially even more new protocols coming in, uh, into this area. What's micron? What, how is micron making this thing happen? This speed that's gonna provide these insights? >>It's a fan fan. Fantastic question and you're absolutely right. The, the world of standards is something that we found over the course of time. If you can get a group of industry players wrapped around a given set of standards, you can create a large enough market and then people can innovate on top of that. And for us in the, in the storage domain, the big transitions had been in Sada and NBME. You see that happening today when we talked a little bit about maybe a teaser for what's coming a little later at, at our event, um, in some of the broader areas in the market, we're talking about how fabrics attach storage and infrastructure. And interestingly enough, where people are innovating quite a bit right now is around using the NBME infrastructure over fabrics themselves, which allows for shared storage across a network as opposed to just within a given server there. >>There's some fantastic companies that are out there that are actually delivering both software stacks and hardware accelerators to take advantage of existing NBME SSDs. But the protocol itself gets preserved. But then they can share these SSDs over a network, which takes a scenario where before you were locked with your storage stranded within a server and now you can actually distribute more broad. It's amazing difference, isn't it at that potential of looking at data over as broad an area as you want to. Absolutely. And being able to address it directly and having it done with standards and then having it done with low enough latency such that you aren't feeling severely disadvantaged, taking that SSD out of a box and making it available across a broad network. So you guys have a huge observation space. Uh, you sell storage to the enterprise, you sell storage to the cloud everywhere. >>I want to ask you about the macro because when you look at the traditional storage suppliers, you know, some of them are struggling right now. There aren't many guys that are really growing and gaining share because the cloud is eating away at that. You guys sell to the cloud. So that's fine. Moving, you know, arms dealer, whoever wins it may the best man win. Um, but, but at the same time, customers have ingested so much all flash. It's giving them head room and so they're like, Hey, I'm good for awhile. I used to have this spinning disc. I'd throw spinning disc at it at the problem till I said, give me performance headroom. That has changed. Now we certainly expect a couple of things that that will catch up and there'll be another step function. But there's also elasticity. Yes. Uh, you saw for instance, pure storage last quarter said, wow, hit the price dropped so fast, it actually hurt our revenues. >>And you'd say, well, wait a minute. If the price drops, we want people to buy more. There's no question that they will. It just didn't happen fast enough from the quarter. All of these interesting rip currents going on. I wonder what you're seeing in terms of the overall macro. Yeah. It's actually a fantastic question. If you go back in time and you look at the number of sequential quarters, when we had ASP decreases across the industry, it was more than six. And the duration from peak to trough on the spot markets was high double digit percentages. Not many markets go through that type of a transition. But as you suggested, there's this notion of elasticity that exists, which is once the price gets below a certain threshold, all of a sudden new markets open up. And we're seeing that happen today. We're seeing that happen in the client space. >>So, so these devices actually, they're going through this transition where companies are actually saying, you know what, we're going to design out the hard drive cages for all platforms across our portfolio going into the future. That's happening now. And it's happening largely because these price points are enabling that, that situation and the enterprise a similar nature in terms of average capacities and drives being deployed over time. So it's, I told you, I think the last time we saw John, I told just one of the most exciting times to be in the memory and storage industry. I'll hold true to that today. I, I'm super excited about it, but I just bought a new laptop and, and you know, I have, you know, a half a half a terabyte today and they said for 200 bucks you can get a terabyte. Yes. And so I said, Oh wow, I could take everything from 1983 and bring it, bring it over. >>Yeah. Interestingly, it was back ordered, you know, so I think, wow, it am I the only one, but this is going to happen. I mean, everybody's going to have, you know, make the price lower. Boom. They'll buy more. We, we, we believe that to be the case for the foreseeable future. Okay. Do you see yourself going in more into the capacity market as well with SSTs and I mean, this, this, this drop, let's do big opportunity or, yeah. Actually, you know, one of the areas that we feel particularly privileged to be able to, to engage in is the, the use of QLC technology, right. You know, quad level solar for bits per cell technology. We've integrated this into a family of, uh, of SSDs for the enterprise, or interestingly enough, we have an opportunity to displace hard drives at an even faster rate because the core capability of the products are more power efficient. >>They've got equal to, or better performance than existing hard drives. And when you look at the TCO across a Reed intensive workloads, it's actually, it's a no brainer to go replace those HDD workloads in the client space. There's segments of the market where we're seeing QLC to play today for higher, higher capacity value segments. And then there's another segment for performance. So it's actually each segment is opening up in a more dramatic way. So the last question, I know you got some announcements today. They haven't hit the wire yet, but what, can you show us a little leg, Derrick? What can you tell us? So I, I'll, I'll give you this much. The, um, the market today, if you go look in the enterprise segment is essentially NBME and SATA and SAS. And if you look at MDME in 20 2019 essential wearing crossover on a gigabyte basis, right? >>And it's gonna grow. It's gonna continue to grow. I mentioned earlier the 9,300 product that we use for machine learning, AI workloads, super high performance. There's a segment of the market that we haven't announced products in today that is a, a a mainstream portion of that market that looks very, very interesting to us. In addition, we can never forget that transitions in the enterprise take a really long time, right, and Sada is going to be around for a long time. It may be 15% of the market and 10% out a few years, but our customers are being very clear. We're going to continue to ship Satta for an extended period of time. The beautiful thing about about micron is we have wonderful 96 layer technology. There's a need in the market and both of the segments I described, and that's about as much as I can give you, I don't bet against data. Derek, thanks very much for coming on. Thank you guys so much. You're welcome. There's a lot of facts. Keep it right there, buddy. We'll be back at micron insight 2019 from San Francisco. You're watching the cube.

[Music] hi I'm Peter Burris and welcome to another Cube conversation from the cube studios here in beautiful Palo Alto California today we're going to talk about some new things that are happening in the security world obviously this is one of the most important domains within the technology industry and increasingly because of digital business in business overall now to do that we've asked Eric manki to come back Derick is the chief of security insights and global threat alliances at Fort Net Derek welcome back to the cube absolutely the same feel the same way Derek okay so we're going to get into some some predictions about what the bad guys are doing and some predictions about what the defenses are doing how we're going to see them defense opportunities improve but let's set the stage because predictions always are made on some platforms some understanding of where we are and that has also changed pretty dramatically so what's the current state in the overall security world Derek yeah so what we saw this year in 2019 a lot is a big increase on automation and I'm talking from an attackers point of view I think we talked about this a little bit earlier in the year so what we've been seeing is the use of frameworks to enhance sort of the day-to-day cycles that cyber criminals and attackers are using to make their you know criminal operations is that much more efficient sort of a well-oiled machine so we're seeing toolkits that are taking you know things within the attack cycle and attack change such as reconnaissance penetration you know exploitation getting into systems and just making that that much quicker so that that window to attack the time to breach has been shrinking thanks to a lot of these crime kits and services that are offered out there now one other comment on this or another question that I might have on this is that so speed is becoming an issue but also the risk as digital business takes on a larger four portion of overall business activities that ultimately the risks and costs of doing things wrong is also going up if I got the right yeah absolutely for sure and you know it's one of those things that it's the longer that a cybercriminal has a foothold in your system or has the opportunity to move laterally and gain access to other systems maybe it's your I o T or you know other other platforms the higher the risk right like the deeper down they are within an attack cycle the higher the risk and because of these automated toolkits are allowing allowing them to facilitate that it's a catalyst really right they can get into the system they can actually get out that much quicker the risk is a much higher and we're talking about risk we're talking about things like intellectual property exfiltration client information this sort of stuff that can be quite damaging to organizations so with the new foundation of speed is becoming an increasingly important feature probably think about security and the risks are becoming greater because digital assets are being recognized as more valuable why do you take us through some of the four Donets predictions on some of the new threats or the threat landscape how's the threat landscape changing yeah so as I said we've already seen this shift in automation so what I would call the basics I mean knowing the target trying to break into that target right when it comes to breaking into the target cyber criminals right now they're following the path of least resistance right they're finding easy ways that they can get into IOT devices I into other systems in our world when we talk about penetration or breaking into systems it's through zero days right so the idea of a zero day is essentially a cyber weapon there's movies and Hollywood that have been made off of this you look at attacks like Stuxnet in the past they all use zero day vulnerabilities to get into systems all right so the idea of one of the predictions we're seeing is that cyber criminals are gonna start to use artificial intelligence right so we talk about machine learning models and artificial intelligence to actually find these zero days for them so in the world of an attacker to find a zero day they have to do a practice called fuzzing and fuzzing is basically trying to trick up computer code right so you're throwing unverified parameters out at your turn T of throwing and unanticipated sequences into code parameters and and input validation and so forth to the point that the code crashes and that's from an attackers point of view that's when you take control of that code this how you know finding weapons into system cyber weapons in this systems work it typically takes a lot of a lot of resource it takes a lot of cycles it takes a lot of intelligence that takes a lot of time to discovery we can be talking on month for longer it's one of the predictions that we're hitting on is that you know cyber criminals are gonna start to use artificial intelligence fuzzing or AI F as I call it to be able to use AI to do all of that you know intelligent work for them so you know basically having a system that will find these gateways if you will these these you know new vulnerabilities into systems so sustained use of AI F to corrupt models so that they can find vulnerabilities that can then be exploited yeah absolutely and you know when it comes to the world of hacking and fuzzing it's one of the toughest things to do it is the reason that zero days are worth so much money you know they can suffer hundreds of thousands of dollars on darknet and in the cyber criminal you know economy so it's because they're talk talk to finally take a lot of resources a lot of intelligence and a lot of effort to be able to not only find the vulnerability but then actively attack it and exploit it right there's two phases to that yeah so the idea is by using part of the power of artificial intelligence that cyber criminals will start to leverage that and harness it in a bad way to be able to not only discover you know these vulnerabilities but also create that weapon right create the exploit so that they can find more you know more holes if you will or more angles to be able to get into systems now another one is that virtualization is happening in you know what the good guys as we virtualized resources but is it also being exploited or does it have the potential be exploited by the bad guys as well especially in a swarming approach yeah virtualization for sure absolutely so the thing about virtualization too is you often have a lot of virtualization being centralizes especially when we talk about cloud right so you have a lot of potential digital assets you know valuable digital assets that could be physically located in one area so when it comes to using things like artificial intelligence fuzzing not only can it be used to find different vulnerabilities or ways into systems it can also be combined with something like I know we've talked about the const that's warm before so using you know multiple intelligence infected pieces of code that can actually try to break into other virtual resources as well so virtualization asked definitely it because of in some cases close proximity if you will between hypervisors and things like this it's also something of concern for sure now there is a difference between AI fai fuzzing and machine learning talk to us a little bit about some of the trends or some of the predictions that pertain to the advancement of machine learning and how bad guys are going to exploit that sure so machine learning is a core element that is used by artificial intelligence right if you think of artificial intelligence it's a larger term it can be used to do intelligent things but it can only make those decisions based off of a knowledge base right and that's where machine learning comes into place machine learning is it's data it's processing and it's time right so there's various machine learning learning models that are put in place it can be used from everything from autonomous vehicles to speech recognition to certainly cybersecurity and defense that we can talk about but you know the other part that we're talking about in terms of reductions is that it can be used like any tool by the bad guys so the idea is that machine learning can be used to actually study code you know from from a black hat attacker point of view to studying weaknesses in code and that's the idea of artificial intelligence fuzzing is that machine learning is used to find software flaws it finds the weak spots in code and then it actually takes those sweet spots and it starts probing starts trying to attack a crisis you know to make the code crash and then when it actually finds that it can crash the code and that it can try to take advantage of that that's where the artificial intelligence comes in right so the AI engine says hey I learned that this piece of software or this attack target has these weak pieces of code in it that's for the AI model so the I fuzzy comes into place to say how can I actually take advantage how can i exploit this right so that's where the AI trussing comes into play so we've got some predictions about how black hats and bad guys are going to use AI and related technologies to find new vulnerabilities new ways of exploiting things and interacting new types of value out of a business what are the white hats got going for them what are their some of the predictions on some of the new classes of defense that we're going to be able to put to counter some of these new classes of attacks yeah so that's that's you know that's honestly some of the good news I believe you know it's always been an armor an arms race between the bad guys and the good guys that's been going on for decades in terms of cybersecurity often you know the the bad guys are in a favorable position because they can do a million things wrong and they don't care right from the good guys standpoint we can do a million things right one thing wrong and that's an issue so we have to be extra diligent and careful with what we do but with that said you know as an example of 49 we've deployed our forty guard AI right so this is six years in the making six years using machine learning using you know precise models to get higher accuracy low false positives to deploy this at reduction so you know when it comes to the defensive mechanism I really think that we're in the drivers position quite frankly we have better technology than the Wild West that they have out on the bad guys side you know from an organization point of view how do you start combating this sort of onslaught of automation in AI from from the bad guys side well you gotta fight fire with fire right and what I mean by that is you have to have an intelligent security system you know perimeter based firewalls and gateways they don't cut it anymore right you need threat intelligence you need systems that are able to orchestrate and automate together so in different security products and in your security stack or a security fabric that can talk to each other you know share intelligence and then actually automate that so I'm talking about things like creating automated security policies based off of you know threat intelligence finding that a potential threat is trying to get into your network that sort of speed through that integration on the defensive side that intelligence speed is is is the key for it I mean without that any organization is gonna be losing the arms race and I think one of the things that is also happening is we're seeing a greater willingness perhaps not to share data but to share information about the bad things that are happening and I know that fort and it's been something at the vanguard of ensuring that there's even better clearing for this information and then driving that back into code that actually further automates how customers respond to things if I got that right yeah you hit a dead-on absolutely you know that is one of the key things that were focused on is that we realized we can't win this war alone right nobody can on a single point of view so we're doing things like interoperating with security partners we have a fabric ready program as an example we're doing a lot of work in the industry working with as an example Interpol and law enforcement to try to do attribution but though the whole endgame what we're trying to do is to the strategy is to try to make it more expensive for cyber criminals to operate so we obviously do that as a vendor you know through good technology our security fabric I integrated holistic security fabric and approach to be able to make it tougher you know for attackers to get into systems but at the same time you know we're working with law enforcement to find out who these guys are to go after attribution prosecution cut off the head of the snake as I call it right to try to hit cyber criminal organizations where it hurts we're also doing things across vendor in the industry like cyber threat Alliance so you know forty knots a founding member of the cyber threat Alliance we're working with other security vendors to actually share real time information is that speed you know message that we're talking about earlier to share real time information so that each member can take that information and put it into you something actionable right in our case when we get intelligence from other vendors in the cyber threat Alliance as an example we're putting that into our security fabric to protect our customers in new real-time so in sum we're talking about a greater value from being attacked being met with a greater and more cooperative use of technology and process to counter those attacks all right yeah absolutely so open collaboration unified collaboration is is definitely key when it comes to that as well you know the other thing like I said is is it's the is the technology piece you know having integration another thing from the defensive side too which is becoming more of a topic recently is deception deception techniques this is a fascinating area to me right because the idea of deception is the way it sounds instead of to deceive criminals when they're coming knocking on your door into your network so it's really what I call like the the house of a thousand mirrors right so they get into your network and they think they're going to your data store but is it really your data store right it's like it's there's one right target and a thousand wrong targets it's it's a it's a defensive strategy that organizations can play to try to trip up cyber criminals right it makes them slower it makes them more inaccurate it makes them go on the defensive and back to the drawing board which is something absolutely I think we have to do so it's very interesting promising you know technology moving forward in 2019 to essentially fight back against the cyber criminals and to make it more expensive to get access to whatever it is that they want Derek max Lilly yeah Derrick McKey chief of security insights and global threat Alliance this is for net thanks once again for being on the cube it's a pleasure anytime look forward to the next chat and from Peter Burroughs and all of us here at the cube in Palo Alto thank you very much for watching this cube conversation until next time you