>> From theCUBE studios in Palo Alto in Boston, bringing you data driven insights from theCUBE and ETR, this is "Breaking Analysis" with Dave Vellante >> In its early days, robotic process automation emerged from rudimentary screen scraping, macros and workflow automation software. Once a script heavy and limited tool that largely was used to eliminate mundane tasks for individual users, and by the way still is, RPA's evolved into an enterprise-wide mega trend that puts automation at the center of digital business initiatives. Hello and welcome to this week's Wikibon CUBE Insights, powered by ETR. In this breaking analysis, we present our quarterly update of the trends in RPA and automation and share the latest survey data from enterprise technology research. RPA has grown quite rapidly and the acronym is becoming a convenient misnomer in a way. I mean the real action in RPA has evolved into enterprise-wide automation initiatives. Once exclusively focused really on back office automation and areas such as finance, RPA has now become an enterprise initiative as many larger organizations especially, move well beyond cost savings and outside of the CFO's purview. We predicted in early "Breaking Analysis" episodes that productivity declines in the US and Europe especially, would require automation to solve some of the world's most pressing problems. And that's what's happening. Automation today is attacking not only the labor shortage but it's supporting optimizations in ESG, supply chain, helping with inflation challenges, improving capital allocation. For example, the supply chain issues today, think about what they require. Somebody's got to do research, they got to figure out inventory management, they got to go into different systems, do prioritizations, do price matching, and perform a number of other complex tasks. These are time consuming processes. Now the combination of RPA and machine intelligence is helping managers compress the time to value and optimize decision making. Organizations are realizing that a digital business goes beyond cloud and SaaS, and puts data, AI and automation at the core leveraging cloud and SaaS but reimagining entire workflows and customer experiences. Moreover, low code solutions are taking off and dramatically expanding the ability of organizations to make changes to their processes. We're also seeing adjacencies to RPA becoming folded into enterprise automation initiatives. And that trend will continue for example Legacy software testing tools. This is especially important as companies SaaSify their business and look for modern testing tools that can keep pace with their transformations. So the bottom line is, RPA or intelligent automation has become a strategic priority for many companies. And that means you got to get the CIO involved to ensure that the governance and compliance edicts of the organization are appropriately met. And that alignment occurs across the technology and business lines. A couple of years ago, when we saw that RPA could be much much more than what it was at the time, we revisited our total available market or TAM analysis. And in doing so, we felt there would be a confluence of automation, AI, and data and that the front and back office schism would converge. That is shown here. This is our updated TAM chart, which we shared a while back with a dramatically larger scope. We were interested that, just a few days ago by the way Forrester put out a new report, picked up by Digital Nation, that the RPA market would reach 22 billion by 2025. Now, as we said at the time our TAM includes the entire ecosystem including professional services as does Forrester's recent report and the projections they're in. So see that little dotted red line there, that's about at the 22 billion mark. We're a few years away but we definitely feel as though this is taking shape the way we had previously envisioned. That is to say a progression from back office blending with customer facing processes becoming a core element of digital transformations and eventually entering the realm of automated systems of agency where automations are reliable enough and trusted enough to make realtime decisions at scale for a much, much wider scope of enterprise activities. So we see this evolving over the 2020s or the balance of this decade and becoming a massive multi hundred billion dollar market. Now, unfortunately for later investors, this enthusiasm that I'm sharing around automation has not translated into price momentum for the stocks in this sector. Here are the charts, the stock charts for four RPA related players with market values inserted in each graphic. We've set the cross hairs approximately at the timing of UiPath's IPO. And that's where we'll start. UiPath IPOed last April and you can see the steady decline in its price. UiPath's Series F investors got in at $30 billion valuation, so that's been halved, more than half. But UiPath is the leader in this sector as we'll see in a moment. So investors are just going to have to be patient. Now, you know the problem with these hot tech companies is the cat gets let out of the bag before the IPO because they raise so much private money, it hits the headlines and then, at the time you had zero interest rates, you had the tech stock boom during the pandemic, so you're just going to have to wait it out to get a nice return if you got in sort of post IPO. You know, which... I think this business will deliver over the long term. Now, Blue Prism is interesting because it's being bought by SS&C Technologies after a bidding war with Vista. So that's why their stock has held up pretty reasonably. Vista's PE firm, which owns TIBCO and was going to mash it, Blue Prism that is, together with TIBCO. That was a play I always liked because RPA is going to be integrated across the board. And TIBCO is an integration company, and I felt it was in a good position to do that. But SS&C obvious said, "Hey, we can do that too." And look, they're getting a proven RPA tech stack for 10% of the value of UiPath. Might be a sharp move, we'll see. Or maybe they'll jack prices and squeeze the cashflow, I honestly have no idea. And we shelled the other two players here who really aren't RPA specialists. Appian is a low code business process development platform and Pegasystems of course, we've reported on them extensively. They're a longtime business process player that has done pretty well. But both stocks have suffered pretty dramatically since last April. So let's take a look at the customer survey data and see what it tells us. The ETR survey data shows a pretty robust picture frankly. This chart depicts the net score or customer spending momentum on that vertical axis and market share or pervasiveness relative to other companies and technologies in the ETR dataset, that's on the horizontal. That red dotted line at the 40% mark, that indicates an elevated spending level for the company within this technology. The chart insert you see there shows how the company positions are plotted using net score and market share or Ns. And ETR's tool has a couple of cool features. We can click on the dot and it allows you to track the progression over time, in this case going back to January, 2020 that's the lines that we've inserted here. So we'll start with Microsoft and we'll get that over with. Microsoft acquired a company called Softomotive for a reported a hundred million dollars thereabout, it's a little more than that. So pretty much a lunch money for Mr. Softy. So Microsoft bought the company in May and look at the gray line where it started showing up in the October ETR surveys at a very highly elevated level, typical Microsoft, right? I mean, a lot of spending momentum and they're pretty much ubiquitous. And it just stayed there and it's gone up and to the right, just really a dominant picture. But Microsoft Power Automate is really kind of a personal productivity tool not super feature rich like some of the others that we're going to talk about, it's just part of the giant Microsoft software estate. And there's a substantial amount of overlap between, for example, UiPath's and Automation Anywhere's customer bases and Power Automate users. And it's speaking with the number of customers. They'll say, "Yeah, we use Power Automate," but they see enterprise automation platforms as much more feature rich and capable and they see a role for both. But it's something to watch out for because Microsoft can obviously take a bite out of virtually any platform and moderate the enthusiasm for it. But nonetheless, these other firms that we're mentioning here, the two leaders, they really stand out, UiPath and Automation Anywhere. Both are elevated well above that 40% line with a meaningful presence in the data set. And you can see the path that they took to get to where they are today. Now we had predicted in 2021 in our predictions post that Automation Anywhere would IPO in 2021. So we predicted that in December of 2020 but it hasn't happened yet. The company obviously wasn't ready, and it brought in new management. We reported on that, Chris Riley as the Chief Revenue Officer, and it made other moves to show up their business. Now let me say this about Riley. I've known him him for years, he's a world class sales leader, one of the best in the tech business. And he knows how to build a world class go to market team, I guarantee that's what he's doing. I have no doubt he's completely reinventing his sales team, the alliances, he's got a lot of experience of that when he was at EMC and Dell and HPE, and he knows the channel really well. So I have a great deal of confidence that if Automation Anywhere's product is any good, which the ETR data clearly shows that it is, then the company is going to do very well. Now, as for the timing of an IPO, look, with the market choppiness, who knows? Automation Anywhere, they raised a ton of dough and it was last valued around... In 2019, it was just north of 7 billion. And so if UiPath is valued at 15 billion, you could speculate that Automation Anywhere can't be valued at much more than 10 billion, maybe a little under, maybe a little over. And so they might wait for the market volatility to chill out a little bit before they do the IPO or maybe they've got some further cleanup to do and they want to get their metrics better, but we'll see. Now to the point earlier about Blue Prism, look at its position on the vertical axis, very respectable. Just a finer point on Pega. We've always said that they're not an RPA specialist but they have an RPA offering and a presence in the ETR data set in this sector. And they got a sizeable market cap so we'd like to include them. Now here's another look at the net score data. The way net score works is ETR asks customers, are you adopting a platform for the first time? That's that lime green there. Are you accelerating spending on the platform by 6% or more relative to last year, or sometimes relative to some other point in time, this is relative to last year. That's the forest green. Is your spending flat or is it, that's the gray, or is it decreasing by 6% or worse? Or are you churning? That's that bright red. You subtract the reds from the greens and you get net score which is shown for each company on the right along with the Ns in the survey. So other than Pega, every company shown here has new adoptions in the double digits, not a lot of churn. UiPath and and Automation Anywhere have net scores well over that 40% mark. Now, some other data points on those two, ETR did a little peeling of the onion in their data set and I found a couple of interesting nuggets. UiPath in the Fortune 500 has a 91% net score and a 77% net score in the Global 2000. So significantly higher than its overall average. This speaks to the company's strong presence in larger companies and the adoption and how larger companies are leaning in. Although UiPath's actually still solid in smaller firms as well by the way but... Now the other piece of information is, when asked why they buy UiPath over alternatives customers said a robust feature set, technical lead and compatibility with their existing environment. Now to Automation Anywhere. They have a 72% net score in the Fortune 500, well above its average across the survey, but 46% only in the Global 2000 below its overall average shown here of 54. So we'd like to see a wider aperture in the Global 2000. Again, this is a survey set, who knows, but oftentimes these surveys are indicative. So maybe Automation Anywhere just working that out, more time, figuring out the go to market in the Global 2000 beyond those larger customers. Now, when asked why they buy from Automation Anywhere versus the competition customers cited a robust feature set, just like UiPath, technological lead, just like UiPath, and fast ROI. Now I really believe that both for Automation Anywhere and UiPath, the time to value is much compressed relative to most technology projects. So I would highlight that as well. And I think that's a fundamental reason, one of the reasons why RPA has taken off. All right let's wrap up. The bottom line is this space is moving and it's evolving quickly, and will keep on a fast pace given the customer poll, the funding levels that have been poured into the space, and, of course, the competitive climate. We're seeing a new transformation agenda emerge. Pre COVID, the catalyst was back office efficiency. During the pandemic, we saw an acceleration and organizations are taking the lessons learned from that forced March experience, the digital I sometimes call it, and they're realizing a couple things. One, they can attack much more complex problems than previously envisioned. And two, in order to cloudify and SaaSify their businesses, they need to put automation along with data and AI at the core to completely transform into a digital entity. Now we're moving well beyond automating bespoke tasks and paving the cow path as I sometimes like to say. And we're seeing much more integration across systems like ERP and HR and finance and logistics et cetera, collaboration, customer experience, and importantly, this has to extend into broader ecosystems. We're also seeing a rise in semantic workflows to tackle more complex problems. We're talking here about going beyond a linear process of automation. Like for instance, read this, click on that, copy that, put it here, join it with that, drag and drop it over here and send it over there. It's evolving into a much more interpreter of actions using machine intelligence to watch, to learn, to infer, and then ultimately act as well as discover other process automation opportunities. So think about the way work is done today. Going into various applications, you grab data, you trombone back out, you do it again, in and out, in and out, in and out of these systems, et cetera, NASM, and replacing that sequence with a much more intelligent process. We're also seeing a lot more involvement from C-level executives, especially the CIO, but also the chief digital officer, the chief data officer, with low code solutions enabling lines of business to be much more involved in the game. So look, it's still early here. This sector, in my view, hasn't even hit that steep part of the S-curve yet, it's still building momentum with larger firms leading the innovation, investing in things like centers of excellence and training, digging in to find new ways of doing things. It's a huge priority because the efficiencies that large companies get, they drop right to the bottom line and the big ER the more money that drops. We see that in the adoption data and we think it's just getting started. So keep an eye on this space. It's not a fad, it's here to stay. Okay, that's it for now. Thanks to my colleagues, Stephanie Chan who helped research this week's topics and Alex Myerson on the production team who also manages the Breaking Analysis Podcast, Kristen Martin and Cheryl Knight, helped get the word out on social. Thanks guys. Your great teamwork, really appreciate that. Now remember, these episodes, they're all available as podcasts, wherever you listen just search "Breaking Analysis Podcast". Check out ETR's website at etr.ai. And we also publish a full report every week on wikibon.com and siliconangle.com. You can get in touch with me directly, david.vellante@siliconangle.com is my email. You can DM me @dvellante or comment on our LinkedIn posts. This is Dave Vellante for theCUBE Insights, powered by ETR. Have a great week, stay safe, be well, and we'll see you next time. (outro music)

>> Announcer: From theCUBE studios in Palo Alto and Boston, connecting with thought leaders all around the world, this is a CUBE Conversation. >> Hi, and welcome to this CUBE Conversation, from our Boston area studio, I'm Stu Miniman, happy to welcome to the program, first of all we have a first time guest, always love when we have a founder on the program, Anurag Goel is the founder and CEO of Render, and we've brought along a longtime friend of the program, Dr. Steve Herrod, he is a managing director at General Catalyst, a investor in Render. Anurag and Steve, thanks so much for joining us. >> Thank you for having me. >> Yeah, thanks, Stu. >> All right, so Anurag, Render, your company, the tagline is the easiest cloud for developers and startups. It's a rather bold statement, most people feel that the first generation of cloud has happened and there were certain clear winners there. The hearts and minds of developers absolutely has been a key thing for many many companies, and one of those drivers in the software world. Why don't you give us a little bit of your background, and as the founder of the company, what was it, the opportunity that you saw, that had you create Render? >> Yeah, so I was the fifth engineer at Stripe, and helped launch the company and grow it to five billion dollars in revenue. And throughout that period, I saw just how much money we were spending on just hiring DevOps engineers, AWS was a huge huge management headache, really, there's no other way to describe it. And even after I left Stripe, I was thinking hard about what I wanted to do next, and a lot of those ideas required some form of development and deployment, and putting things in production, and every single time I had to do the same thing over and over and over again, as a developer, so despite all the advancements in the cloud, it was always repetitive work, that wasn't just for my projects, I think a lot of my friends felt the same way. And so, I decided that we needed to automate some of these new things that have come about, as part of the regular application deployment process, and how it evolves, and that's how Render was born. >> All right, so Steve, remember in the early days, cloud was supposed to be easy and inexpensive, I've been saying on theCUBE it's like well, I guess it hasn't quite turned out that way. Love your viewpoint a little bit, because you've invested here, to really be competitive in the cloud, tens of billions of dollars a year, that need to go into this, right? >> Yeah, I had the fortunate chance to meet Anurag early on, General Catalyst was an investor in Stripe, and so seeing what they did sort of spurred us to think about this, but I think we've talked about this before, also, on theCUBE, even back, long ago in the VMware days, we looked very seriously at buying Heroku, one of the early players, and still around, obviously, at Salesforce in this PaaS space, and every single infrastructure conversation I've had from the start, I have to come back to myself and come back to everyone else and just say, don't forget, the only reason any infrastructure even exists is to run applications. And as we talked about, the first generation of cloud, it was about, let's make the infrastructure disappear, and make it programmatic, but I think even that, we're realizing from developers, that is just still way too low of an abstraction level. You want to write code, you want to have it in GitHub, and you want to just press go, and it should automatically deploy, automatically scale, automatically secure itself, and just let the developer focus purely on the app, and that's a idea that people have been talking about for 20 years, and should continue to talk about, but I really think with Render, we found a way to make it just super easy to deploy and run, and certainly it is big players out there, but it really starts with developers loving the platform, and that's been Anurag's obsession since I met him. >> Yeah, it's interesting, when I first was reading I'm like "Wait," reminds me a lot of somebody like DigitalOcean, cloud for developers who are, Steve, we walked through, the PaaS discussion has gone through so many iterations, what would containerization do for things, or serverless was from its name, I don't need to think about that underlying layer. Anurag, give us a little bit as to how should we think of Render, you are a cloud, but you're not so much, you're not an infrastructure layer, you're not trying to compete against the laundry list of features that AWS, Azure, or Google have, you're a little bit different than some of the previous PaaS players, and you're not serverless, so, what is Render? >> Yeah, it is actually a new category that has come about because of the advent of containers, and because of container orchestration tools, and all of the surrounding technologies, that make it possible for companies like Render to innovate on top of those things, and provide experiences to developers that are essentially serverless, so by serverless you could mean one of two things, or many things really, but the way in which Render is serverless is you just don't have to think about servers, all you need to do is connect your code to GitHub, and give Render a quick start command for your server and a build command if needed, and we suggest a lot of those values ourselves, and then every push to your GitHub repo deploys a new version of your service. And then if you wanted to check out pull requests, which is a way developers test out code before actually pushing it to deployment, every pull request ends up creating a new instance of your service, and you can do everything from a single static site, to building complex clusters of several microservices, as well as managed Postgres, things like clustered Kafka and Elasticsearch, and really one way to think about Render, is it is the platform that every company ends up building internally, and spends a lot of time and money to build, and we're just doing it once for everyone and doing it right, and this is what we specialize in, so you don't have to. >> Yeah, just to add to that if I could, Stu, what's I think interesting is that we've had and talked about a lot of startups doing a lot of different things, and there's a huge amount of complexity to enable all of this to work at scale, and to make it work with all the things you look for, whether it's storage or CDNs, or metrics and alerting and monitoring, all of these little startups that we've gone through and big companies alike, if you could just hide that entirely from the developer and just make it super easy to use and deploy, that's been the mission that Anurag's been on to start, and as you hear it from some of the early customers, and how they're increasing the usage, it's just that love of making it simple that is key in this space. >> All right, yeah, Anurag, maybe it would really help illustrate things if you could talk a little bit about some of your early customers, their use case, and give us what stats you can about how your company's growing. >> Certainly. So, one of our more prominent customers was the Pete Buttigieg campaign, which ran through most of 2019, and through the first couple of months of 2020. And they moved to us from Google Cloud, because they just could not or did not want to deal with the complexity in today's standard infrastructure providers, where you get a VM and then you have to figure out how to work with it, or even Managed Kubernetes, actually, they were trying to run on Managed Kubernetes on GKE, and that was too complex or too much to manage for the team. And so they moved all of their infrastructure over to Render, and they were able to service billions of requests over the next few months, just on our platform, and every time Pete Buttigieg went on stage during a debate and said "Oh, go to PeteForAmerica.com," there's a huge spike in traffic on our platform, and it scaled with every debate. And so that's just one example of where really high quality engineering teams are saying "No, this stuff is too complex, it doesn't need to be," and there is a simpler alternative, and Render is filling in that gap. We also have customers all over, from single indie hackers who are just building out their new project ideas, to late stage companies like Stripe, where we are making sure that we scale with our users, and we give them the things that they would need without them having to "mature" into AWS, or grow into AWS. I think Render is built for the entire lifecycle of a company, which is you start off really easily, and then you grow with us, and that is what we're seeing with Render where a lot of customers are starting out simple and then continuing to grow their usage and their traffic with us. >> Yeah, I was doing some research getting ready for this, Anurag, I saw, not necessarily you're saying that you're cheaper, but there are some times that price can help, performance can be better, if I was a Heroku customer, or an AWS customer, I guess what might be some of the reasons that I'd be considering Render? >> So, for Heroku, I think the comparison of course, there's a big difference in price, because we think Heroku is significantly overpriced, because they have a perpetual free tier, and so their paid customers end up footing the bill for that. We don't have a perpetual free tier that way, we make sure that our paid customers pay what's fair, but more importantly, we have features that just haven't been available in any platform as a service up until now, for example, you cannot spin up persistent storage, block storage, in Heroku, you cannot set up private networking in Heroku as a developer, unless you pay for some crazy enterprise tier which is 1500, 3000 dollars a month. And Render just builds all of that into the platform out of the box, and when it comes to AWS, again, there's no comparison in terms of ease of use, we'll never be cheaper than AWS, that's not our goal either, it's our goal to make sure that you never have to deal with the complexity of AWS while still giving you all of the functionality that you would need from AWS, and when you think about applications as applications and services as opposed to applications that are running on servers, that's where Render makes it much easier for developers and development teams to say "Look, we don't actually need "to hire hundreds of DevOps people," we can significantly reduce our DevOps team and the existing DevOps team that we have can focus on application-level concerns, like performance. >> All right, so Steve, I guess, a couple questions for you, number one is, we haven't talked about security yet, which I know is a topic near and dear to your heart, was one of the early concerns about cloud, but now often is a driver to move to cloud, give us the security angle for this space. >> Yeah, I mean the key thing in all of the space is to get rid of the complexity, and complexity and human error is often, as we've talked about, that is the number one security problem. So by taking this fresh approach that's all about just the application, and a very simple GitOps-based workflow for it, you're not going to have the human error that typically has misconfigured things and coming into there, I think more broadly, the overall notion of the serverless world has also been a very nice move forward for security. If you're only bringing up and taking down the pieces of the application as needed, they're not there to be hacked or attacked. So I think for those two reasons, this is really a more modern way of looking at it, and again, I think we've talked about many times, security is the bane of DevOps, it's the slowest part of any deployment, and the more we get rid of that, the more the extra value proposition comes safer and also faster to deploy. >> The question I'd like to hear both of you is, the role of the developer has changed an awful lot. Five years ago, if I talked to companies, and they were trying to bring DevOps to the enterprise, or anything like that, it seemed like they were doomed, but things have matured, we all understand how important the developer is, and it feels like that line between the infrastructure team and the developer team is starting to move, or at least have tools and communication happening between them, I'd love, maybe Steve if you can give us a little bit your macroview of it, and Anurag, where that plays for Render too. >> Yeah, and Anurag especially would be able to go into our existing customers. What I love about Render, this is a completely clean sheet approach to thinking about, get rid of infrastructure, just make it all go away, and have it be purely there for the developers. Certainly the infrastructure people need to audit and make sure that you're passing the certifications and make sure that it has acceptable security, and data retention and all those other pieces, but that becomes Anurag's problem, not the developer problem. And so that's really how you look at it. The second thing I've seen across all these startups, you don't typically have, especially, you're not talking about startups, but mid-sized companies and above, they don't convert all the way to DevOps. You typically have people peeling off individual projects, and trying to move faster, and use some new approach for those, and then as those hopefully go successful, more and more of the existing projects will begin to move over there, and so what Render's been doing, and what we've been hoping from the start, is let's attract some of the key developers and key new projects, and then word will spread within the companies from there, but so the answer, and a lot of these companies make developers love you, and make the infrastructure team at least support you. >> Yeah, and that was a really good point about developers and infrastructure, DevOps people, the line between them sort of thinning, and becoming more of a gray area, I think that's absolutely right, I think the developers want to continue to think about code, but then, in today's environment, outside of Render when we see things like AWS, and things like DigitalOcean, you still see developers struggling. And in some ways, Render is making it easy for smaller companies and developers and startups to use the same best practices that a fully fledged DevOps team would give them, and then for larger companies, again, it makes it much easier for them to focus their efforts on business development and making sure they're building features for their users, and making their apps more secure outside of the infrastructure realm, and not spending as much time just herding servers, and making those servers more secure. To give you an example, Render's machines aren't even accessible from the public internet, where our workloads run, so there's no firewall to configure, really, for your app, there's no DMZ, there's no VPN. And then when you want to make sure that you're just, you want a private network, that's just built into Render along with service discovery. All your services are visible to each other, but not to anyone else. And just setting those things up, on something like AWS, and then managing it on an ongoing basis, is a huge, huge, huge cost in terms of resources, and people. >> All right, so Anurag, you just opened your first region, in Europe, Frankfurt if I remember right. Give us a little bit as to what growth we should expect, what you're seeing, and how you're going to be expanding your services. >> Yeah, so the expansion to Europe was by far our most requested feature, we had a lot of European users using Render, even though our servers were, until now, based in the US. In fact, one of, or perhaps the largest recipe-sharing site in Italy was using Render, even though the servers were in the US, and all their users were in Italy, and when we moved to Europe, that was like, it was Christmas come early for them, and they just started moving over things to our European region. But that's just the start, we have to make sure that we make compute as accessible to everyone, not just in the US or Europe but also in other places, so we're looking forward to expanding in Asia, to expanding in South America, and even Africa. And our goal is to make sure that your applications can run in a way that is completely transparent to where they're running, and you can even say "Look, I just want my application to run "in these four regions across the globe, "you figure out how to do it," and we will. And that's really the sort of dream that a lot of platforms as service have been selling, but haven't been able to deliver yet, and I think, again, Render is sort of this, at this point in time, where we can work on those crazy crazy dreams that we've been selling all along, and actually make them happen for companies that have been burned by platforms as a service before. >> Yeah, I guess it brings up a question, you talk about platforms, and one of the original ideas of PaaS and one of the promises of containerization was, I should be able to focus on my code and not think about where it lives, but part of that was, if I need to be able to run it somewhere else, or want to be able to move it somewhere else, that I can. So that whole discussion of portability, in the Kubernetes space, it definitely is something that gets talked quite a bit about. And can I move my code, so where does multicloud fit into your customers' environments, Anurag, and is it once they come onto Render, they're happy and it's easy and they're just doing it, or are there things that they develop on Render and then run somewhere else also, maybe for a region that you don't have, how does multicloud fit into your customers' world? >> That's a great question, and I think that multicloud is a reality that will continue to exist, and just grow over time, because not every cloud provider can give you every possible service you can think of, obviously, and so we have customers who are using, say, Redshift, on AWS, but they still want to run their compute workloads on Render. And as a result, they connect to AWS from their services running on Render. The other thing to point out here, is that Render does not force you into a specific paradigm of programming. So you can take your existing apps that have been containerized, or not, and just run them as-is on Render, and then if you don't like Render for whatever reason, you can take them away without really changing anything in your app, and run them somewhere else. Now obviously, you'll have to build out all the other things that Render gives you out of the box, but we don't lock you in by forcing you to program in a way that, for example, AWS Lambda does. And when it comes to the future, multicloud, I think Render will continue to run in all the major clouds, as well as our own data centers, and make sure that our customers can run the appropriate workloads wherever they are, as well as connect to them from the Render services with ease. >> Excellent. >> And maybe I'll make one more point if I could, Stu, which is one thing I've been excited to watch is the, in any of these platform as a services, you can't do everything yourself, so you want the opensource package vendors and other folks to really buy into this platform too, and one exciting thing we've seen at Render is a lot of the big opensource packages are saying "Boy, it'd be easier for our customers to use our opensource "if it were running on Render." And so this ecosystem and this set of packages that you can use will just be easier and easier over time, and I think that's going to lead to, at the end of the day people would like to be able to move their applications and have it run anywhere, and I think by having those services here, ultimately they're going to deploy to AWS or Google or somewhere else, but it is really the right abstraction layer for letting people build the app they want, that's going to be future-proof. >> Excellent, well Steve and Anurag, thank you so much for the update, great to hear about Render, look forward to hearing more updates in the future. >> Thank you, Stu. >> Thanks, Stu, good to talk to you. >> All right, and stay tuned, lots more coverage, if you go to theCUBE.net you can see all of the events that we're doing with remote coverage, as well as the back catalog of what we've done. I'm Stu Miniman, thank you for watching theCUBE. (calm music)

(upbeat music playing) >> Announcer: Live from San Diego, California, it's theCUBE! Covering KubeCon and CloudNativeCon, brought to you by Red Hat, the cloud native computing foundation and its ecosystem partners. >> Welcome back to theCUBE, here at KubeCon, CloudNativeCon 2019 in San Diego, I am Stu Miniman John Troyer is my co-host and joining us is one of our esteemed Cube alumni multi-time guests. Steve Herrod who is the managing director at General Catalyst. Steve, thanks so much for joining us. Always great to see you. >> It's good to see you again. >> Stu: All right I'm having >> And John. >> A flashback meeting with the two of you at a certain campus in Palo Alto and the like. But, you know it's interesting Steve, before we get into this technology, we kicked off this morning talking about a company, Docker. We knew Docker from the early on. I said, look Docker had the opportunity to be this generation's VM-ware. It has had a huge impact on the market. You know, we wouldn't have 12 thousand people here if it wasn't for them. Give us your take kind of as to, you know, this wave of technology and we'll start there. >> Yeah, well I guess I'll start with Docker the company. I mean, it just shows you boy, it's hard to build big companies these days and I think there will be plenty of people talking about why that didn't work out or did work out. Maybe there was too much stuff given to open source. Maybe not enough, maybe there isn't enough community. But I do think, I think that's the tale of just how hard it is to be out in this world. But on the flip side they certainly moved for the idea of containers and got things going. We always have a saying in the venture business, actually in the startup business, which is it's sometimes the second mouse that gets the cheese. Someone's got to break a little glass and then sometimes someone else comes in afterwards and gets some of the reward for it. >> Well Steve this is a sprawling ecosystem. We went from 8 thousand people last year, 4 thousand the year before to over 12 thousand, and this ecosystem keeps growing. You've got a portfolio company that launched this week. You're checking out the show floor. Maybe let's start with the new one coming out from your side. >> Yeah you know I have several startups that are here but I think what's been interesting is the opportunity to create new companies. If you look at the, I'm sure you've covered a lot of them. But if you look at the sponsor sheets here, there's literally hundreds of booths that you can go see and many of which are in similar areas, many of which are open source. So it's really a challenge, like as you all trained interviewers and me trained looking at the space. Think how complex it is to a customer right now. Do that, think about like which service mesh do I pull together with this and that and which command line and which API tool, so I think that's both the challenge and the opportunity you often see this early on. One company that we just had coming out is called Render and their idea is to build an application platform service kind of on top of all this and just to hide it all from the user which I think is, I think that's what always happens in these ecosystems. You get so many players and then someone will be the bundler and make a suite out of it. Or someone will write a service on top of it all and take it away from you. So I think it's sort of a healthy part of a rapidly changing ecosystem. And Render will be doing some interesting things, but they talk to Application developers, not to infrastructure people. App developers don't want to know about any of this. >> Well we're sitting here at KubeCon in the midst of kind of, right at that margin, right at that boundary between from one perspective it looks very developer-y, But from another perspective, this seems very operator-y here. How do you see, in the market in the place, with the buyers, the CIOs or the technical buyers out there. I mean how are you looking at infrastructure versus developers and cloud et cetera? >> It's funny, you know we're all infrastructure people for the most part. What I often say, I know you all know that as well, like at the end of the day infrastructure is only there to run applications. It has no other purpose in life except to be a great place to run applications. But it's also accountable for doing a lot of the things you need. It has to make it run fairly at a certain performance. It has to make sure it's safe from attack. It needs to make sure the data is backed up. So I always just try to think about that when I'm looking at these startups, and we were just talking about this before the show. When I go up to one of the booths and I ask, I usually ask, how do you make someone's life better? Sometimes you get someone who's not the most senior person at the company and they'll quickly go into the technology on how it's this or that. But if you can't frame it in the context of how some enterprises' applications are better, faster, safer then it's really not that interesting, I think, to a CIO that has all these decision making. So, anyway I keep coming back to that with what ever infrastructure or application companies out there and try to wonder what's going on. >> Yeah, no I do really like that as we often frame it, it's what is the business value? It's, you know, nobody really has a problem that I need to rub Kubernetes on. Yes, I need agility, I need you know, the result of what having a distributed architecture drives from my business is what I need. Not the niggling little details there. Um, so I love that piece of what you do better for a company. The other thing, I walk around and I talk to some of these companies and some of them, I scratch my head a little bit as to the oh well I created a cool project, and we've open sourced it and that's my business. And as you know we've talked about the cautionary tale of Docker. Where are we with open source and business model and what's your latest take on that? >> Boy, that is ever evolving. It's funny though, if you look at even just the last ten years since you've been covering things. The go to model for most open source companies has shifted from maybe supportive subscription to really, some of them are open core meaning that parts of it are closed source. But, more and more that the really well to do ones are running them as a service. So that tends to be what we look for now is, whether you're running it directly, or you're doing something with a Microsoft, Google, Amazon where you get some of the revenue from it, which is a big, a big if. That seems to be one of the better ways to consume it and the people who have control over the software should be the best at operationalizing it. So that's kind of the change that we've seen as of late. >> Yeah, quick follow up on that, when we look at the hyper scale, the public clouds. Their marketplaces are getting more and more, you know, it's just a big force in the marketplace. Especially AWS, but Azure's pushing that way and Google to some extent there. Do you give any advice to your portfolio customers? How they should think about their relationships with the big cloud players? >> Well yeah, I mean that's one of the biggest discussions, not even just for our tech companies, but our commerce companies and everywhere else. But I do think what's kind of interesting, in many cases we're seeing the companies talk about maybe Amazon or someone is running that software as a service and it's maybe it's a little older version or maybe it's not all the bells and whistles. So there's certainly a case where good enough is good enough and it kind of crushes the startup, but you also hear a fair amount of tales of where it introduces them to this concept for the first time and then they're going to move over to perhaps the best of breed case, so obviously getting that right is a big job for the founder as well as for an investor. But, um I really see it as a mixed bag. The notion of being introduced to a customer at a lower cost than ever before matters a lot if they then switch to you. >> Well Steve, another boundary that you're sitting at is the boundary between all these technology providers and the customer. Any particular observations on trends over in the customer side? Are people looking to save money, are people feeling good, are the techies really leading the adoption? Is CIO down? Digital transformation? I mean, you're sitting right there in the middle. >> Yeah I mean the good news for I think all startups are that software matters and the digital transformation that's been going on for many, many years continues in a broad way. I would say at the end of the day though, the one question that I almost ask just back to your point on business value. I ask any startup, tell me why you are at least 10 times better than everyone else in this space. And because it is, the bad news of so many startups and so many cool ideas is how's anyone to choose? So if you ask any of your CIOs, they're just massively confused. They try to look for a bigger vendor who could possibly bundle it all together and make it a suite. That's super enticing as you know to all these guys. But when you have this much churn and change going on, you know someone has to step into that role, so I would just say that the ideal thing is you have smaller number of vendors, that never works with a lot of rapid innovation so somewhere in the middle you need to have startups that are really good at bundling in with other folks and fitting into APIs and doing that. >> Alright, so Steve, we've had an interesting view on what's going on in the security industry this week and I know you've got a perspective on it. Our team did the AWS reinforce show in Boston and it was generally upbeat, talking about all the great things that cloud's doing and you know, modernize everything we're doing. Pat Gelsinger from VMware, you know, banging on the table at VMware saying you know, we need a do-over, we need to start over with security. Here at this show, if some people are very cautiously optimistic that we've solved a bunch of the problems of security. You know, where in your view are we, and where are we going? >> I think we'll never be done with security. However, I do think we've reached a maturity level, if you, well, you were here. A couple years ago, there were so many security companies just for containers and I think, you know that's interesting to some extent, but, every CIO is going to have a mixed environment. And so I think what you see this year and what you saw with Palo Alto's acquisitions, so my companies Alumio I know you've talked to. It's really saying let's have one master policy and have it actually then go out and talk to Amazon, talk to my local infrastructure, talk to containers, talk to server lists. That will be the next wave of things going on. But, um, I think whenever you see a maturing of a company like this, the management tools and the security tools that have to inter operate start to really make a showing. And I actually see that quite a bit in this show, so that's a sign of a little bit of maturity going on here. >> Okay, last thing, Steve, I guess, what's catching your eye? Anything interesting or spaces there that you'd call out that we haven't already touched on? >> Well, I spend a lot of time these days actually on, and I hesitate to say it, but on AI. And I mean specifically it is such a hyped term and it's used in many ways like cloud used to be used, so it's just sort of a marketing term in many ways. But specifically, the picks and shovels that are enabling that, many of which show up here too because it is being deployed in containers, that sort of thing. So certainly the tools, but more importantly the vertical applications that can have a meaningful benefit from it. And I'll say, same thing as with infrastructure. AI is a means to an end, it's not the actual thing you're trying to do. But there's real, there's been a real advance there and so I'm really enjoying watching where you get these 10x improvements because you're using the data and AI there. So I continue to love infrastructure and developer tools and I think especially as they get applied to some of these new areas, like AI. That's where I'm excited about what we'll be seeing. >> Well, Steve, really appreciate you coming by. Congrats to the Demon Render, definitely look to catch up there if we don't catch him this week, we'll get him to our Palo Alto studios sometime. >> Yeah, Render is cool. You can go try it out. Render.com >> All right. For John Troyer, I'm Stu Miniman. Getting towards the end of day 1 of 3 days. Wall to wall coverage. Check out theCUBE.net for all of the coverage, and as always, thanks for watching theCUBE. (upbeat music playing)

>> from our studios in the heart of Silicon Valley, Palo Alto, California It is a cute conversation. >> Hello and welcome to the Special Cube conversation with remote gas. Steve, harried managing director of General Catalyst, is he's a venture capitalist. >> Former >> CTO of the M. Where? Cube alumni. Steve, welcome to this special cube conversation coming in remote from Palo Alto. You're right across town, but still grab you big news happening. And also get your thoughts on the emerald 2019. Welcome to our remote conversation. >> Yeah, we were close. And yet this makes it even more convenient. We >> love the new format. Bring people into no matter where they are, no matter. Whatever it takes to get the stories we want to do that. And two important ones having. We know the emeralds coming next week. But congratulations. In order to you and your portfolio companies signal FX, another cube alumni from we've been covering since the beginning of their funding acquisition. Bye, Splunk today for over a billion dollars. 60% in cash and 40%. And stop. Congratulations. You've been on the board. You've known these guys from VM. We're quite a team. Quite an exit It's a win win for those guys. Congratulations. >> Yeah, Great group of guys. Several, which were at being where, as you as you mentioned, and as you've had on your show, that's great. They were doing a really good job of monitoring and getting metrics about applications and how they're doing it. And they're marrying it with spunk, stability to ingest logs and really understand operational >> data. And I think that combination will be very powerful. >> It brings kind of what we've been monitored. Calling Cloud 2.0, Suzie, monitoring 2.0, is really observe ability As the world starts moving into the kinds of service is we're seeing with Cloud on premises operations more than ever, that game has changed much more dynamic, and the security impact is significant. And certainly as as applications connect with its coyote or any I p device having that day, that scales really critical part of that. And I know signal left fax was one of those companies where you invested early, and I remember interviewing a couple of years ago in saying, Damn, these guys might be too early. I mean, they're so smart, they're so on it. But this is an example of skating to where the puck is As we increase, Key would say, These guys were just hitting their stride. Steve, can you Can you share any color commentary on on the deal and or you know why this is so important? >> Well, they've been at this for a long time, and they're a great team. I've been involved. Is investor less time? Obviously. But it was the really original team out of Facebook monitoring really at scale applications and then trying to take that technology that Facebook could use and applied it to our world. And, you know, as you discovered, we're in a world of micro service's and containers, and that is definitely hitting its stride right now. And so they were in the right place knowing how >> to monitor this very fast moving >> information and make some sense out of it. So you're a really good job on their part, and it was a pleasure to be >> along for part of the ride with him. >> It's great to me, great founders that have a vision and stay the course because, you know it's always it's always tricky when you're early to see the future especially around their top micro surfaces and containers way back before became the rage and now more relevant operationally for enterprises, it's easy to get distracted and man that fashion. We'll just jump on this trend of this way. They stayed the course. They stayed the nose to the grindstone and now observe ability. Which, to me is code word for monitoring. 2.0 is probably one of the hottest segments you saw Cummings going public companies filing the pager Duty dynatrace. Now you guys with your acquisition with Signal FX, This is an important sector this would normally be viewed in. I t. Rule is kind of list of white space, but it seems to be a much bigger landscape. Can you comment on your view on this and why it's so important? Why is observe ability so hot? Steve? >> Well, it's been this actually had a great market to be in for quite a while. They've been a large number of companies, continue to be both built up, and it's pretty simple. That amount of e commerce, or the amount of customer interactions you're having over applications and over the Web has gone up, and so anything that's not performing well or as downtime literally cost you a lot of money as a company. And so as these applications get more complex and they're being relied on >> Maur for revenue and for custom directions, >> you simply have to have better tools. And that's gonna be something that continues to evolve, that we got more complex, absent, more commerce is going >> to go through them. >> Complexity is actually something that people, a lot of people are talking about. I want to ask you something around today's marketplace, but I want you to compare and contrast it, similar to what your experience wasn't v m Where were you? The CTO virtual ization of all very, very quickly on ended up becoming a really critical component of the infrastructure, and a lot of people were pooh poohing that initially at first, then all sudden became. We've got to kill the M where you know so the resiliency of the M, where was such that they continue to innovate on virtualization, and so that's been a part of the legacy of V M wear, and the embers will cover next next week. But when you look at what's happening now with cloud computing and now some of the hybrid cloud up opportunities with Micro Service's and other other cool things. The role of the application is being is important part of the equation. It used to be the standup infrastructure, and that would enable the application to do things virtualization kind of change that game. Now you don't need to stand up. Any infrastructure could just deploy an application, and the infrastructure can be code and be self form, so you can have unique requirements. As infrastructure driven by the application, the whole world seemed to have flipped around. Do you see it that way? Is that accurate assessment? What's your thoughts on that? >> I think you're right on a bunch of fronts. People have been calling a different things, but the beauty of the, um where and you know this is a while ago now, but the reason it was successful is that you didn't have to change any of your software to use. It sort of slid him underneath an added value. But at the same time applications evolved. And so the that path of looking like hardware was something that was great for not changing applications. You have to think about a little differently when people are taking advantage of new application patterns or new service. Is that air in the cloud? And as you build up these as they're called cloud Native applications, it really is about the infrastructure. You know. It's job in life is to run applications. It sort of felt like the other way around. It used to be you wrote an application for what your infrastructure was. It shouldn't be like that anymore. It's about what you need to do to get the job done. And so we see the evolution of the clouds and their service. Is that air there? Certainly the notion of containers and a lot of the stuff that being where is now doing has been focused on those new applications and making sure Veum, where adds value to them, whatever type >> of application they are. >> It's interesting one of the exciting things in this way that we're on this year around multi cloud hybrid cloud in Public Cloud Now that we've kind of crossed over to the reality that public cloud has been there, done that succeeded I call that cloud 1.0, you saw the emergence of hybrid cloud. Even early on, around 2012 2013 we were talking about that of'em world instantly pad Kelsey here, but now you're seeing hybrid cloud validated. You got Outpost, you've got Azure stack, among other things. The reality is, if you are cloud native, you might not need to have anything on premise. Like companies like ours with 50 plus people. We don't have an I T department, but most enterprises have stuff on premise, so the nuance these days is around. You know, what's the architecture of of I T. These days, we add security into It's complicated. So these debates can there be a soul cloud for a workload? Certainly that's been something that we've been covering with the Amazon Jet I contract, where it's not necessarily a soul cloud for the entire Department of Defense. It's a soul cloud for the workload, the military application workload or app. The military. It's $10 million application, and it's okay to have one cloud, as we would say, But yet they're going to use Microsoft's cloud for other things. So the ODS having a multiple cloud approach, multiple environments, multiple vendors, if you will, but you don't have to split the cloud up. Her say This is kind of one of those conversations really evolving quickly because there's no real school of thought around this other than the old way, which was have a multi vendor environment split the things. What's your thoughts on the the workload relationship to the cloud? Is it okay to have a workload, have a single cloud for that workload and coexist with other clouds? >> It's funny. I've been thinking about this more lately. Where if you went back earlier in time, forgetting cloud, there used to be a lot of different type of servers that you >> can run on, whether it >> be a mainframe or a mini mainframe or Unix system or Olynyk system. And to some extent, people are choosing what would run where, based on the demands of the application, sometimes on price, sometimes on certifications or even what's been poured into the right one. So this is a beating myself, you know, that's that's a while ago. It's not too different to kind of think about the different kind of cloud service is there out there, whether you're running your own on your own data center or whether you're leveraging one from the other partners. I really do think in the ideal world you get your choice of the best possible platform for the application across a variety of characteristics. And it's kind of up to the vendors of management software and monitoring software at security software to give you more flexibility to choose where to run. And so for getting D'Amore exactly. But think of a virtualization layer that really tries to abstract out and let you more fluidly run things on different clouds. Do you think that's where a lot of the the core software is head of these days really >> enable that toe work better >> as a >> 1,000,000 other use cases, but with storage being moved around >> for disaster recovery or for whatever it else might >> be? But that quarter flexibility reminds me a lot of choosing what application >> would want. Run would run where within your own company >> and the kubernetes trend in containers certainly really makes that so much more flexible because you can still run VM. Where's viens beams under the covers over Put stuff on bare metal a lot of great opportunities that's exciting >> and you slap in a P I in front of them and micro service is sort of works in tandem with that so that you could really have your application composed >> across multiple environments. >> And I think the ob surveilling observe ability is so hot because it takes what network management was doing in the old way, which is monitoring. Make sure things are operating effectively and combining with data. And so when I heard about the acquisition of signal effects into Splunk, I'm like, There it is. We're back to data. So observe ability is really a data challenge and opportunity for using what would be a white space monitoring. But it's more than monitoring because it's about the data and the efficacy of that data and how it's being used, whether it's for security or whatever your thoughts >> s. So there's more data than ever, for sure, and so being able to stream that in being able to capture it at cost, all that is a big part of our environment still working. The key thing is turning that into some actionable insight, and whether you're using no interesting calculations for that or different forms of machine learning like that's where this really has to go is with all this data coming in. How do >> I avoid false false >> positives? How do I only alert people when needed, then that allows you to do what everyone's talked about for 30 years, which is automatic remediation. But for now, let's talk about it. Is how do I process all of this rich data and give me the right information to take action? >> Do you want to thank you for coming on this promote cube conversation? You've been with us at the Cube since 2010. I think our first cube event was A M C. World 2010. That show doesn't existing longer because that folded into Del Technologies world. So VM world next week is the last show standing that has been around since the Cube. You've been around? Of course, you guys had VM worlds had their 10th anniversary was 2013 as a show. But this is our 10th year. Well, thank you for being part of our community and being a contributor with your commentary and your friendship and referral. Appreciate all that. So I gotta ask you looking back over the 10 years since you been with Doug, you've vm world. What's the most exciting moments? What are moments that you can say? Hey, that was an amazing time. That was a grind, but we got through it. Funny moments. Your thoughts. >> Boy, that's a tough question. I've enjoyed working with you, John and the Cube. There's been somebody really interesting things for me. The sum of the big acquisitions that we went through a V Um, where? Where? I think the NSX exposition. When we get a syrah, I think that really pushed us an interesting spots. But we have gone through, uh, I pose an acquisition ourself by the emcee begun Theo. It's a pretty vicious competition from Be Citrix Airs in or Microsoft. Yeah, that's just the joy of being a These companies is lots of ups and downs along the way that they almost kind of fit together to make an exciting life. >> What was some moments for you? I know you had left was the 2015 or 26 boys with your last day of >> the world. You go now, you know about six years. >> What do you miss about the end? Where >> the team is what everyone kind of cliche says. But it's totally true. The chance to kind of work with all those people at the executive staff all the way down to like these awesome engineers with Koi is so I definitely missed that Miss Shipping products. You don't get to do that as much directly as a venture capitalist. But on the flip side, this is a great world to be, and I get to see enthusiastic. You're very optimistic founders all day long, pushing the envelope. And while that was existing at the end where, uh, it's it's what I see every single day here. >> You've been on The Cube 10 times at the M World. That's the all time spot you're tied for. First congratulates on the leaderboard. It's been a great 10 years. Going forward. We've seen are so good. Looking back, I would say that you know Palmer, it's taking over from Diane Greene. Really set the table. He actually laid out. Essentially, what I think now is a clearly a cloud SAS architecture. I think he got that pretty much right again. Or maybe early in certain spots of what he proposed at that time. There's some things that didn't materialize is fast, but ultimately from core perspective. You guys got that right, Um, and then went in Try to do the cloud. But then and this year it comes in for suffered to find, you know, line with Amazon. And since that time, the stock has been really kind of it on the right. So, you know, some key moments there for Of'em. Where from Self >> Somali. More stuff. It's fun to see Pivotal now possibly coming back into after after getting started there. But I think you know, there's there's a hugely talented team of execs there. Pat L Singers come >> in and done a great job. I think, Greg, >> you and all these folks that Aaron, >> there are good thinkers. And so I >> think you'll consider just continue to see it evolved. Quite event and probably some cool announcements next week. >> Talk aboutthe roll Ragu and the team play because he doesn't really get a lot of the spotlight. He avoids it. I know he did talk to him privately that he won't come on the Q. I don't know what the other guys go on other guys in jail, so he's been instrumental. He was really critical in multiple deals. Could you share some insight into his role at bm bm were and why it's been so important. >> I'll push him to get on, especially now that you have remote. You can probably grab him now. He and Rajiv and Rayo Funeral Just all the guys air. I think he and Reggie basically split up half and half of the products. But Roger is very, very seminal in the whole cloud strategy that has clearly been working Well, he's a good friend in a very smart guy. >> Well, I want you to give me a personal word that you're gonna get me in a headlock and tell him to come on the Cube this year. We want him on. He's a great, great great guest. He's certainly knowledgeable going forward. Steve, 10 years out, we still got 10 more years of great change coming. If you look at the wee that's coming, you're out investing in companies again. You had one big exit today with the $1,000,000,000 acquisition that was happen by Splunk and signal effects. Ah, lot more action. You've been investing in security. What's your outlook? As you look at the next 10 years is a lot more action to happen. We seem to be early days in this new modern era. Historic time in the computer industry as applications without dictating infrastructure capabilities is still a lot more to do. What do you excited about? >> There's a million things I get to see every day, which are clearly where the world is headed. But I think at the end of the day there's there's infrastructure, which the job in life of infrastructure is to run applications. And so then you look at applications. How are they changing and what is the underlying fabric gonna need to do to support them? And if you look at the future of applications, it's clearly some amazing things around artificial intelligence and machine learning to actually make them smarter. It's all different factors form factors that they're running on and being displayed on. I think we clearly have a world where with the next generation of networking, you could do even more at the edge and communicate in a very different way with the back end. I kind of look at all these application patterns and really trying to think about what is the change to the underlying clouds and fabrics and compute that's gonna be needed to run them. I think we have plenty of head room of interesting ideas ahead. >> Stew, Dave and I were talks to Dave. Stupid Valenti student and I were talking about, you know, as infrastructure and cloud get automate as automation comes in, new waves are gonna be formed from it. What new waves do you see? Is it like R P ay, ay, ay, ay. Because as those things get sucked in and the ships and two new waves What? Oh, that's some of the key ways people should pay attention to. I'm not saying the industries is going away, but as it becomes automated, and as the shift happens, the value still is there. Where is those new waves? >> Well, then, today it looks like most applications they're gonna be composed of a lot of service is, um and I think they're gonna be able. They're going to need to be displaying on everything from big screens to small screens to purely as a headless 80. I front ends, and so again, I think at the end of the day, this this infrastructure is gonna have to have a lot of computation capability after crunch do tons of data but also have to stitch together these connections between components and provide really good experiences and predictability in the network and all those air very hard problems that we've been working on for a while. I think we'll keep working on them and new forms for the next 10 years at least. >> Awesome. Steve. Thanks for being a friend with us in the queue, but you're funny. Favorite moment of the Q. Can you share any observations about the cube and your experiences? Your observations over the 10 years we've come a long way, >> you go ugly, actually enjoyed it. I mean, it's a microcosm of all the other stuff going on, but I saw your first little box that you built and used for the Cube like that was that was really cool. But now the fact that I'm on my laptop, you doing this over the network and it's showing up is pretty awesome. So think you're following the same patterns of the other, have the other applications moving the cloud and having good user experiences. >> Cube native here software native Steve. Thank you so much for stating the time commenting on the acquisition. I know it's fresh on the press. Ah, lot more analysis and cut to come next week. It's certainly I'll be co hosting at Splunk dot com later in the year. So I'm looking forward to connect with a team there and again. Thanks for all your contribution into the cube community. We really appreciate one. Thank you for your time. >> Thanks. You guys are awesome. Thanks for chatting. >> Okay. Steve Herod, managing director at general counsel, Top tier VC From here in Silicon Valley and offices around the world, I'm John for breaking down the news as well as a V Emerald preview with the former CTO of'em. Were Steve hair now a big time venture capitalists. I'm John Ferrier. Thanks for watching.

our Studios in the heart of Silicon Valley Palo Alto California this is a cute conversation hello everyone welcome to the special cube conversation with a remote guest Steve Herod managing director of general kennel s he's a venture capitalist former CTO of VMware cube alumni Steve welcome to this special cube conversation coming in remote from Palo Alto you're right across town but still we're gonna grab you big news happening and also get your thoughts on the Emerald 2019 welcome to our remote conversation yeah hey Jon yeah we're close and yet this makes it even more convenient go we'd love the new format of bring people into no matter where they are no matter what whatever it takes to get the stories we want to do that and and two important ones to having we we know vm world's coming next week but congratulations in order to you and your portfolio companies signal FX another cube alumni firm we've been covering since the beginning of their funding acquisition by Splunk today for over a billion dollars sixty percent in cash and forty percent in stop congratulations you've been on the board you've known these guys from VMware quite a team quite an exit it's a win-win for those guys congratulations yeah great group of guys several of which were at VMware has you as you mentioned and as you've had on your show that's great they were doing a really good job of monitoring and getting metrics about applications and how they're doing it and they're marrying it with spunks ability to ingest logs and really understand operational data and I think the combination will be very powerful it brings kind of what we've been monitoring cloud 2.0 essentially monitoring 2.0 is really observability as the world starts moving into the the kinds of services we're seeing with cloud and on-premises operations more than ever that game has changes much more dynamic and the security impact is significant and certainly as applications connect whether it's IOT or any IP device having that data at scale is really a critical part of that and I know signal FX was one of those companies where you invested early and I remember interview them a couple years ago and saying damn these guys might be too early I mean they're so smart they're so on it but this is an example of skating to where the as Wayne Gretzky would say these guys were just hitting their stride Steve can you can you share any color commentary on on the deal and or you know why this is so important well they've been at this for a long time and they're a great team I've been involved as an investor less time obviously but yeah it was the really original team out of Facebook monitoring really at scale applications and then trying to take that technology that Facebook could use and applied it to our world and you know as you discovered we're in a world of micro services and containers and that is definitely hitting its stride right now and so they were in the right place knowing how to monitor this very fast moving information and and make some sense out of it so yeah really good job on their part and it was a pleasure to be along for part of the ride with them it's great to meet great founders that have a vision and stay the course because you know it's always tricky when you're early to see the future especially around ok we're talking micro services and containers way back before it became the rage and now more relevant operationally for enterprises it's easy to get distracted and it's fashion well just jump on this trend or this wave they stayed the course they stayed the nose to the grindstone and now observability which to me is code word for monitoring 2.0 is probably one of the hottest segments you saw companies going public companies filing the pager Duty dynaTrace now the you guys with your acquisition with signal FX this is an important sector this would normally be viewed in the IT world as kind of lists of white space but it seems to be a much bigger landscape can you comment on your view on this and why it's so important why is observability so hot Steve well it's been this actually been a great market to be in for quite a while they've been a large number of companies continuing to be both built up and it's pretty simple the amount of e-commerce or the amount of customer interactions you're having over applications and over the web has gone up and so anything is not performing well or house downtime literally cost you a lot of money as a company and so as these applications get more complex and they're being relied on more for revenue and for customer interactions you know simply you have to have better tools and that's gonna be something that continues to evolve we have more complex apps and more commerce is going to go through them complexity is obviously something that people a lot of people are talking about I want to ask you something around today's marketplace but I want you to compare and contrast it similarly to what your experience was at VMware when you the CTO you know virtualization evolved very very quickly and ended up becoming a really critical component of the infrastructure and a lot of people were pooh-poohing that initially at first and then all the sudden became we got to kill VMware and you know so the resiliency of VMware was such that they continued to innovate on virtualization and so that's been you know part of the legacy of VMware and VM roads will cover next next week but when you look at what's happening now with cloud computing and now some of the hybrid cloud opportunities with micro services and other other cool things the the role of the application is being is important part of the equation it used to be the stand up infrastructure and that would enable the application to do things virtualization kind of changed that game now you don't need to stand up any infrastructure you can just deploy an application then the infrastructure can be code and be self formed so you can have unique requirements as infrastructure driven by the application the whole world seems to have flipped around do you see it that way is that accurate assessment and what's your thoughts on that I think you're right on a bunch of fronts people have been calling it different things but the beauty of VMware and you know this is a while ago now but the reason it was successful is that you didn't have to change any of your software to use it sort of slid in underneath and added value but at the same time applications evolved and so the path of looking like hardware was something that was great for not changing applications you have to think about a little differently when people are taking advantage of new application patterns or new services that are in the cloud and as you build up these as they're called cloud native applications it really is about the infrastructure you know it's job and life as to run applications and it's it sort of felt like the other way around it needs to be you wrote an application for what your infrastructure was it shouldn't be like that anymore it's about what what you need to do to get the job done and so we see the evolution of the clouds and their services that are there certainly the notion of containers and a lot the stuff that VMware is now doing has been focused on those new applications and making sure VMware adds value to them whatever type of application they are it's interesting one of the exciting things in this wave that we're on this year around multi cloud hybrid cloud and public cloud now that we've kind of crossed over to the reality that public cloud has been there done that succeeded I call that cloud 1.0 you saw the emergence of hybrid cloud even early on around 2012-2013 we were talking about that at VMworld you know certainly Pat Kelson here but now you're seeing hybrid cloud validated you got outpost you got Azure stack among other things the reality is if you are cloud native you might not need to have anything on premise like companies like ours with 50 plus people we don't have an IT department but most enterprises have stuff on premise so the the nuance these days is around you know what's the architecture of IT these days when you add security into it's complicated so there's debates can there be a sole cloud for a workload certainly that's been something that we've been covering with the Amazon Jedi contract where it's not necessarily a sole cloud for the entire department of defense it's a sole cloud for the workload the military application workload or app the military it's 10 billion dollar application and it's okay to have one cloud as we would say but yet they're gonna use Microsoft's cloud for other things so the DoD's having a multiple cloud approach multiple environments multiple vendors if you will but you don't have to split the cloud up or say this is kind of one of those conversations really evolving quickly because there's no real school of thought around this other than the old way which was have a multi-vendor environment split two things what's your thoughts on the the workload relationship to the cloud is it okay to have a workload have a single clap for that workload and coexist with other clouds it's funny I've been thinking about this more lately where if you went back earlier in time forgetting cloud there used to be a lot of different type of servers that you could run on whether it be a mainframe or a mini mainframe or UNIX system or a Linux system and to some extent people are choosing what would run where based on the demands of the application sometimes on price sometimes on certifications or even what's been ported to the right one so this is I'm beating myself but you know that's that's a while ago it's not too different to kind of think about the different kind of cloud services are out there whether you're running your own on your own data center or whether you're leveraging one from the other partners I really do think in the ideal world you get your choice of the best possible platform for the application across a variety of characteristics and it's kind of up to the vendors of management software and monitoring software at security software to give you more flexibility to choose where to run and so forgetting VMware exactly but think of a virtualization layer that that really tries to abstract out and let you more fluidly run things on different clouds I do think that's where a lot of the you know the core software is head of these days to really enable that to work better and so a million other use cases with with you know storage being moved around for disaster recovery or for whatever it else might be but that core of flexibility reminds me a lot of you know choosing what application would one run would run where within your own company and the kubernetes trend in container certainly really makes that so much more flexible because you can still run VMware's on the ends beams under the covers or put stuff on bare metal a lot of great opportunities so it's exciting and you slap an API in front of them and and micro-services sort of works in tandem with that so that you you could really have your application composed across multiple environments and I think the observable observability is so hot because it takes what network management was doing in the old way which is monitoring making sure things are operating effectively and combining with data and so when I heard about the acquisition of signal FX into Splunk I'm like there it is we're back to data so observability is really a data challenge and opportunity for using what would be a white space monitoring but it's more than monitoring because it's about the data and the efficacy of that data and how it's being used whether it's for security or whatever your thoughts so there's more data than ever for sure and so being able to stream that in being able to capture it at cost all that is a big part of our you know the environments we all work and the key thing is turning that into some actionable insight and whether you're using you know interesting calculations for that or different forms of machine learning like that's where this really has to go is with all this data coming in do I avoid false false positives how do i only alert people when needed and then that allows you to do what everyone has talked about for 30 years which is automatic remediation but for now let's talk about it is how do i process all of this rich data and give me the right information to take action see we want to thank you for coming on this promote cube conversation you've been with us at the cube since 2010 I think our first cube event was EMC world 2010 that show doesn't exist any longer because that folded into Dell technologies world so VM world next week is the last show standing that has been around since the cube cubes been around of course you guys had the VM worlds had their 10th anniversary I think was 2013 as a show but this is our 10th year I want to thank you for being part of our community and being a contributor with your commentary and your friendship and referral appreciate all that so I gotta ask you looking back over the 10 years since you've been with the cube VMworld what's the most exciting moments what are moments that you can say hey that was an amazing time that was a grind but we got through it funny moments your thoughts yeah boy that's a tough question I've enjoyed you know working with you John and the cube there have been so many really interesting things for me the some of the big acquisitions that we went through at VMware where I think the nsx acquisition when we get nasarah I think that really pushed us in an interesting spot but we had gone through IPOs and acquisition ourselves by EMC and we've gone through some pretty vicious competition from whether it be Citrix or Zin or Microsoft yeah that's just the joy of being at these companies it's lots of ups and downs along the way but they all kind of fit together to make an exciting life what were some moments for you I know you had left was a twenty fifteen or twenty six point eight vs world you go down there yeah about six years what do you miss about VMware the team is what everyone kind of cliche says but it's totally true the chance to kind of work with all those people at the executive staff all the way down to like these awesome engineers with Co ideas so I definitely missed that miss shipping products you don't get to do that as much as a venture capitalist but but on the flip side this is a great world to be and I get to see enthusiastic you know very optimistic founders all day long pushing the envelope and while that was existing at the EM where it's it's what I see every single day here you've been on the cube ten times at vmworld that's the all time spot you're tied but first congratulations on the leaderboard well it's been a great ten years going forward we've seen more so go looking back I would say that you know Palmer it's taking over from Diane Greene really set the table he actually laid out essentially what I think now as a clearly a cloud SAS architecture I think he got that pretty much right again or maybe early in certain spots of what he proposed at that time though some things that didn't materialize as fast but ultimately from a core perspective you guys got that right and then went in try to do the cloud but then and this year it comes in for a software-defined you know line with Amazon and since that time the stock has been really kind of up to the right so you know some key moments there for VMware from small somalia more stuff it's fun to see pivotal now possibly coming back into after after getting started there but I think you know there's there's a hugely talented team of executives there Pat Yeltsin jurors come in and done a great job I think Raghu and all these folks that are in there are good thinkers and so I think you'll consider to continue to see it evolve quite a bit and probably some cool announcements next week talk about the role Raghu and the team played because he doesn't really get a lot of the spotlight he avoids it I know he'd I've talked to him privately he won't come on the qoi let the other guys go on other guys and gals so he's been instrumental he was really critical in multiple deals could you share some insight into his role at VMware VMware and why it's been so important well I'll push them to get on especially now that you have remote you can probably grab him no he and Rajiv and andraia Ferrell just all the guys are I think he and regime basically split up half and half of the products but I know Raghu is very very similar in the whole cloud strategy that has clearly been working well he's good friend in a very smart guy well I want you to give me a personal word that you're gonna give him in a headlock and tell him to come on the cube this year we want him on he's a great great great guest he's certainly knowledgeable going forward Steve 10 years out we still got 10 more years of great change coming if you look at the wave that's coming you're out investing in companies again you had one big exit today with the billion dollar acquisition that was happening by Splunk and signal affects a lot more action you've been investing in security what's your outlook as you look at the next ten years there's a lot more action to happen we seem to be early days in this new modern era historic time in the computer industry has applications of now dictating infrastructure capabilities is still a lot more to do what are you excited about there's there's a million things I get to see everyday which are clearly where the world is headed but I think at the end of the day there's there's infrastructure which the job and life of infrastructure is to run applications and so then you look at applications how are they changing and and what is the underlying fabric gonna need to do to support them and if you look at the future of applications it's clearly some amazing things around artificial intelligence and machine learning to actually make them smarter it's all different factors form factors that they're running on and being displayed on I think we clearly have a world where with the next generation of networking you can do even more at the edge and communicate in a very different way with the backend so I kind of look at all these application patterns and really try to think about what is the change to the underlying clouds and fabrics and compute that's going to be needed to run them I think we have plenty of headroom of interesting ideas ahead stew Dave and I were talks to Dave Stuben they want this too many man died we're talking about you know as infrastructure and cloud get automated as automation comes in new waves are gonna be formed from it what new waves do you see is it's like RPAs a I I mean because as those things get sucked in and they ships in to new waves what are the some of the key ways people should pay attention to I'm not saying the inverse tress is going away but as it becomes automated and as the shift happens the value still is there where is those new waves well I think today it looks like most applications are going to be composed of a lot of services and I think they're gonna be able they're gonna need to be displaying on everything from big screens to small screens to purely as headless api friends and so again I think at the end of the day this this infrastructure is gonna have to have a lot of computation capability have to crunch through tons of data but also have to stitch together these connections between components and provide really good experiences and ability in the network and all those are very hard problems that we've been working on for a while I think we're gonna keep working on them and new forms for the next ten years at least awesome see thanks for being a friend with us in the cube what's your funny favorite moment of the Q can you share any observations about the cube and your experiences your observations over the 10 years we've come a long way you've come a long way actually I've enjoyed it I mean it's a microcosm of all the other stuff going on but I saw your first little box that you built and used for the cube like that was that was really cool but now the fact that I'm on my laptop you know doing this over the network and it's showing up is pretty awesome so I think you're following the same patterns of the other of the other applications moving to the cloud and having good user experience because cube native here software if the male native Steve thank you so much for staying the time commenting on the acquisition I know it's fresh on the press a lot more analysis and cut to come next week it's certainly I'll be co-hosting ATS plunks Kampf later in the year so I'm looking forward to connecting with the team there and again thanks for all your contribution into the cube community we really appreciate it one thank you for your time thanks John you guys are awesome thanks for chatting okay Steve Herod managing director at General Counsel top tier VC from here in Silicon Valley and they have offices around the world I'm Jean ferré breaking down the news as well as a VM real preview with the former CTO of VMware Steve hare now a big-time venture capitalist I'm John Ferrier thanks for watching [Music] you [Music]

>> Live from Seattle, Washington, it's theCUBE, covering KubeCon and Cloud Native Con North America 2018 brought to you by Red Hat, the Cloud Native Computing Foundation and it's ecosystem partners. >> Hey welcome back everyone, we are live here in Seattle. It's theCUBE's coverage of KubeCon, Cloud Native Con, a part of CNCF, Cloud Native Computing Foundation, the rise of Kubernetes, this is what the show is all about. Three days of wall to wall coverage. We've been there from the beginning covering this KubeCon effort from the beginning. I'm John Furrier with Stu Miniman, we're here to analyze and break down the event with our guest analyst for the segment, Steve Herrod, CUBE alumni, he was there the first day we ever did theCUBE in 2010. He's been a good friend of theCUBE. Now he's a venture capitalist, managing director at General Catalyst, a premiere VC in the industry. Steve, great to see you. >> Good to be here. >> Thanks for coming on. >> Feels like the early days of some of the other conferences, too, doesn't it? >> It feels like AWS, you know seven/eight years ago where it tips over, there's a tipping point. We see that doubling, so you know, it's kind of that tipping point where there's more demand for theCUBE and we can fill it so there's great content but it's a bigger picture, right? And I want to break through that, I want to get your thoughts and let's have a shared conversation around what's really going on here. You're talking about a disruption in the industry of cloud computing. You got Amazon, just a freight train just taking all the beach, the waves coming in and this is an opportunity, this is my opinion, for the industry to kind of say, hey, it's a multi cloud world so you're not going to take all of it. You got Google, you got Microsoft, you got start ups. This is a way to create an opensource way to fill the gap. Your thoughts? You agree? >> I totally agree and I think what's interesting, this conference does not have a corporate, at least an explicit corporate sponsor. It has four or five that are all trying to have their play in it. Microsoft's not one of them, which is sort of interesting. But it was, I think, a very bold thing this year to have this big of a venue and invite this many people and then hope that you're going to get the sponsorships and all the other stuff that follows. >> In Seattle. >> In Seattle. Yeah, our weather is a little bit-- >> It's very meta. (laughing) >> Interesting. But, just to your point, I do think this is really interesting because it is more open than a lot of these conferences where people are coming together. Both open source but also so much focus on how do you do functions in a way that works across places, how do you service meshes. Like everything is, it's both good and bad because there's so many choices that people are being seen right now. >> You were the CTO of VMware, Stu you worked in the CTO office at EMC back in the day, you're seeing a systems kind of vibe going on in cloud and you got application renaissance, kind of almost like the app server days, think WebSphere or whatever, that movement in the 90's and 2000's, that kind of grew quickly, all kind of being modernized. So you have cloud scale. >> Mm-hmm. >> AI has been around for a long time but because of the cloud, there's a renaissance. Video's been around for a long time but because of the cloud, things like theCUBE is happening. So the cloud is enabling a rebirth of a lot of things. >> Mm-hmm. >> And enabling a lot of new things, how do you guys view that systems view, application renaissance? Jassy talks about a reinvent as a new kind of persona developing. >> Mm-hmm. >> As a buyer and IT investments are changing, you're making start up investments, it's crazy. >> Yep. >> What do you think? >> Yeah, so first of all John, I like what you're saying about that systems view because too often we would kind of focus on a specific tool. So virtualization was great, but, you know, big thing, I took a bunch of servers and made it smaller servers but I took the same old application and I shoved it in there, and I left it running for another five or 10 years when I probably should have modernized it. Today, you know we just had Cheryl on talking about the ecosystem and customers and what I want to focus on is how the users get value. What are building on top of this? >> Right. >> Not the next cool thing to build, but how do I run my business? How do I do cool things with genomics? How do I improve healthcare? And in many ways we're seeing some of these top down things. I mean what's gotten me so excited about things like serverless and been really poking and teasing at how that fits in with this ecosystem is it's not just about a way to kind of turn the crank on making things a little bit more efficient or, you know, I can manage more machines with fewer people, but you know it moves up things and for someone like myself, a networking guy with an infrastructure background? >> Right. >> It's a little out of my comfort zone and that's okay. You know we talked to Lou Tucker, Lou's really excited about where AI's going and what's there, so I think we're in a real renaissance here and it's a big inflection point. >> Well I think to your point, what's interesting, whenever I do a teacher course to a college or when I'm talking to start ups or even in the old days it's really easy to forget that infrastructure is not a thing in it's own right. It's solely there to enable applications and to enable other things and so whenever you get really deep in the weeds on this is a new security model for this type of container or this, it's important and you're thinking about the best way to do it but, really you're right, you have to abstract it out to can I ship value faster? Can I save customers money? Can I do something safer? You really have to think about it in that context. And there's so much activity here you have to really make sure you're thinking about where it all fits together. >> And you know, the computer science conversations changes, too. The nature of what is computer science is evolving. I want to get to that in the next kind of discussion point but I want to just, Steve, ask you, you were on the VMware side when VMware kind of entered in with virtualization. It was a desktop, it was an app, it was like you loaded it on a machine and then that ended up transforming a massive industry and so a lot of people compare what VMware did in it's growth and it's impact but saying the cloud has got certainly more orders of magnitude, you mentioned security. >> Mm-hmm. >> Where's the VMware moment in this cloud transformation impact? Your thoughts there, just because you've been on both sides, one as a driver, CTO at VMware and now as an investor. Where do you see cloud-- >> Yeah, I kind of thought of it as two different angles. One is, appealing to developers and then that taking you all the way through operations which is, I mean that is, dev ops is sort of looking at that. VMware's first product was a workstation product that made developers have a bunch of environments right in front of them and we always had a vision for getting into the operations center but we knew we had to kind of come up through that path and I think likewise, a lot of this tooling that we see here is developer first and it's them saying, "I like this tool "and I can make my job be more enjoyable this way." But what you're really seeing, especially at this one is, how do you start in the developer tools and then not be detested by developers but then actually be paid for it by the operations side. So if you look at the type of vendors that are here? You start having venture capitalists here. You have a few people wearing suits here. It is about making this more enterprisey, more production ready and that's kind of the natural progression of any major impact like this. >> And Heptio, certainly Stu was reporting earlier, the number has been better than the filing of VMware. You know, a half a billion dollar acquisition for talent and a position in the marketplace. There's liquidity so there's investment opportunities. We talked to Jerry Chan about this at AWS, I want to get your thoughts, how is the investment thesis going on because what are you investing in? The notion of a stack, has kind of transformed into Lego blocks and services. >> Yep. >> So the notion of a stack is kind of changing although I've heard people say the, "Kubernetes stack." I'm like, well, what does that mean? (laughing) >> Which one? Yeah. >> So there's a lot of kind of stack derivatives. >> Mm-hmm. >> But how do you invest in this? What are you looking for? Where is the value? >> Yep. >> Where are sniffing out the deals? Where's the white spaces? And where should entrepreneurs go? >> Yeah, and I have several companies presenting here so I've certainly done some investments around this space, but I focus on a few things very specifically. I've been around this a little while. I really like to think about not tools that go to the new, hot new companies. I really try to think about what is more mainstream company going to adopt? And that usually means a few things. It has to have enterprise capabilities. It has to fit into the rest of the things. But I look at like how are you going to digest this with your other tools and the other processes that you have in place? If it's a security solution, I look at, I don't want really something that only protects the brave new world, I want it to fit in somehow with security policies and other things that are happening. >> So mainstream adoption? IT kind of impact? >> Yeah, just like a tool that actually works across environments and lets you go from here to there. You all have talked to Illumio several times? >> Yeah. >> They're trying to do micro segmentation for physical machines all the way through containers. The other thing I'm keeping a close eye on is, this is chaos, in terms of the number of start ups doing very specific point solutions and you have to really think about how does that grow into a big enough chunk of a budget or a big enough problem. So every single time I make an investment, I ask how does this do something 10 times better than something else and is that important to the company? And that's really hard to answer sometimes. >> Steve, and what's your take on the kind of opensource, open core, business model today? To be honest, I go around, I talked to some of the founders there, and everybody wants to contribute to opensource but maybe I don't want to build a business around it, because actually monetizing that is really tough. Is it just, I look to get acquired by one of the big players here? Or can I actually build a business with opensource at it's core? >> That's literally the billion dollar question. >> Yeah. >> But I do think, like on the positive side, the number of exits or big things recently with Magento, with Cloudera doing great, with, obviously, Red Hat, but we've seen, and Neilsoft, like a lot of big acquisitions and some good IPOs. But on the flip side, you definitely have to think about it differently now. There's a growing license that is very careful about allowing clouds to host your opensource project without contributing back. Hopefully that'll allow this hosted model to play out. I personally, I certainly look to opensource. You can see what's going on from traction but when you see it as a great lead generation engine which it often is for folks, I think that's a really healthy way to avoid spending a bunch of marketing money. >> Yeah, it's been fun. A lot of different shows we go to. Love your analysis, thanks for coming on, appreciate it. Just in general, as not a VC, but as a tech person and in the industry, I want to ask you and Stu what wave are we on? Obviously Kubernetes is now kind of front and center but we've still got cloud native. Is it the cloud? You got IoT and Amazon ARM, but we saw a lot of conversations around Edge. They had some interesting announcements around satellite telemetry coming in to regions. So you got Google, you got Microsoft, you got the big players. Is it the rich get richer? Is there going to be a new second tier? Cloud service provider? Where is this going? How is it going to reshape the industry? I mean, just big picture, what's your thoughts? >> Well, this is literally what I get paid to do is figure out where things are headed. I'd say, just at a top level, this is a super fun time to be in this lower level of the stack. You mentioned already AI gets, sort of AI washing goes on a lot right now but the very core of it is literally changing every application in interesting ways. And for me, I was a former hardware designer. The fact that you can now build and have really cool new hardware that's accelerating this stuff is really exciting. You saw Amazon's announcements, not only an ARM based server but Inferentia chips. Google has been doing this with TPUs-- >> Hundred gig networking in there, like, you know, high speed-- >> It is impressive. >> Cluster configurations, it's amazing stuff. >> So I love the fact that we can actually have very big innovation at each stage of the stack and it's because the combination of every company becoming an app, digital company coupled with the power of AI to transform things means you need dev ops to faster, you need these platforms that let you do more self service. And then I sprinkle on top of that is just the ridiculous demand for high quality engineers and if you don't give them an environment where they feel productive, they're just not going to stay at your company. And so all the mix comes together. I don't think they're going to be, there'll be some giant companies that already are, but I think the ability to create a new company that becomes large quickly or becomes small quickly if you screw up is bigger than ever. >> Yeah, I think it's total acceleration. >> Everything's faster. >> Values accelerated but it's also failure, too, right? >> Exactly, everything is accelerated. >> You have an option to abandon in you NPV calculations and IRRS (laughing) in your portfolio. >> Exactly, no it's-- >> The word pivot comes to mind. >> Everything is faster, that's the right way to think about it. >> Stu what's your take on this? >> Yeah, so we're at an interesting point in the industry. It's a bit of a paradox. On the one hand, the challenge of our time, we've been talking on theCUBE since the early days, John, is it's about distributed architectures and we're decomposing all of the pieces. Even Kubernetes itself, we're going to talk about how it's decomposing. On the other hand, everything is consolidating. >> That's right. >> I've seen more vertical stack integration from the chip and hardware level all the way through. You see Apple, Microsoft, Google-- >> That's right. >> And Amazon, all have chips companies and are going really interesting stuff there but it is such a complex individual. >> It is. >> That no one company can do it all, so there is opportunity for people to build on top of that. We have new marketplaces, we have new ways of doing it so it's, yes, there's going to be some really big winners and we have seen changes but there are still opportunities and yeah, John, keeps us busy always. >> Well here's my take on it, I want to get you guys' reaction to my view on this. So obviously we're in the media business, we're disrupting media with theCUBE so we look at the market and it's kind of matched the music industry. The power curve, the power law is very flat and straight and then a very long tail, with the head of the power law is the big players. But then when media came out, it kind of created a fatter tail and a bigger torso. I think that I see in the cloud, I see the rich getting richer. Amazon, Google, Microsoft, Alibaba, and maybe a couple players underneath there, IBM, Oracle, those big guys. And then it's going to be a second tier of cloud service providers. Someone who's going to package all these awesome sets of features in the long tail so you're going to start to see a growth because the big guys cannot be winning all the mid range business. I think, you're right, I think there's going to be a lot of solutions that are just exceptional. >> Mm-hmm. >> And I think the scale of the cloud is going to create an opportunity for new kinds of service providers. Someone who says, hey, you know what? I'm going to package this differently. I'm going to assemble-- >> I think so. >> A cloud solution, on either one of all of the clouds. Why wouldn't I use the accelerated Amazon, or the power of Google? >> I think that's well thought and I do think, we've talked about this for a while too, but I do believe there's going to be specialization by industry where you have certain algorithms and data that's unique to it, by geography. There's still going to be sovereignty issues. Even by just what type of things am I trying to build. So I do think simultaneously there's commonality on the platform but that allows you to do specialization and to really serve a specific industry quite well. >> And machine learning is a great specialty thing. The metadata to power machine learning. >> So Steve, do you have final questions you want to ask us before we run out of time? >> Well I would just say, you see a lot of these conferences. I actually like to show up at these and say, what in point time does this look like the AWS reinvent. For me, what point in time does this look like maybe the VMware event in my case, but I don't know, it just feels to me like we've jumped over, we're sort of at that point where this is going to keep going and growing. >> Yeah, how do we make sure we've hit the inflection point but not jumped the charts? >> Yeah, I mean, do you think we are here? And how does this feel versus some of the other events that you spend time on? >> Yeah, I mean, John you want me to? >> I mean, you know. >> So my take, first of all, is there's a little worry and there's some concern of us that have been through this before, is like, wait, did we just create another OpenStack? >> Yeah. >> And my resounding answer so far, is no. While there might be 35 main projects here each one of those was started for a reason. They stand on their alone, they have, you know we've got Matt Klein on from Lyft, as our next guest here. >> Yeah. >> You know, Envoy, if Kubernetes didn't exist, Envoy would probably still exist. So there's a lot of these pieces that are good but it is complicated. >> It is very complicated. >> And there's all these pieces but that's a real opportunity for a lot of companies. The SIs, the big platforms, to be able to help put this together. >> Yeah. >> And the customers are thrilled with what is going on. >> That's well stated, yeah. >> There's interesting things there. Right, this ecosystem, the only ecosystem I've seen probably grow faster is the Amazon one so it is doing well and we've been looking for years as to like a nice, vendor independent ecosystem. >> Right. >> To grow because, you know, there's some of the ones in the storage industry and things like that. >> Yeah. >> All died. >> That's right. >> So there are vendor shows and this, you know the Lennox Foundation's done a nice job. >> Right, I agree. >> With it and it's been-- >> That's the unique part here for me. >> We bet early on it, so. >> Well we bet early on it, it was a good bet, but here's the challenge that they have; they have lightning in a bottle and it's definitely arrived so there's a little bit of jump to shark moment. You got some things happening that's kind of glam oriented but absolutely it's arrived. I think the challenge that they have is opensource community is a core constituency of this event, and the Lennox Foundation is structured to be kind of a very tight top, thin at the top period of management and the scale of this event and this movement is too big for them, I think, to handle. I think they either have to have sub brand or start segmenting out because if they lose the opensource community, the they're going to lose the vibe of the event and that's the core of what it is. >> Right. >> The downstream benefits, kind of a an opensource parlance, is the IT impact and the developer impact. And inherent in that is business benefits so you're going to start to see more suits coming in and you're going to start to have a melting pot and that is a risky proposition if they don't get out front on that. So yes, it's arrived, but there's so much time they're going to be doing it just to the projects. >> Right. >> Just to the innovation. >> You're going to have to wear these next time that you see them. >> There's a money making aspect of it, yes. >> Right. >> The money making aspect of this is huge. >> Yeah. >> And I think that's what we're watching. >> Yep. >> As the business people come in and say, look at this, this is billions and billions of dollars. >> Yeah. >> This is-- >> Maybe just one more thought on that. The notion is really important, this is a distributed, not really owned by one person, one company, and there's the chaos that comes with that and so how do you do the balance between these two things? >> Yeah, yeah. >> Its like when, I know, when Amazon announced their Blockchain thing, it's like, Blockchain's supposed to be distributed. Now we have a company running it in one cloud. It's like that balance between the push and pull of centralization that we're going to see. >> Well have to put some computer science architecture together and put an operating system around it. >> There ya go. >> We'll have some dev ops. Steve, thanks for coming on theCUBE, great to have you on. >> Good to see you guys. >> Well it's great to see you. A legend in the industry, Steve Herrod, CUBE alumni from 2010, been on every year. Now a venture capitalist, former CTO of VMware. With Stu Miniman, I'm John Furrier, analyst of KubeCon, stay with us for more coverage after this short break. (upbeat techno music)

[Music] [Applause] [Music] welcome to the special cube conversations here in Palo Alto cube studios I'm John Ferrier the founder of Silicon angle in the cube we're here with divest cargoes the founder and CEO of arcus Inc our curse com ar-are see us calm and Steve Herod General Partner at at General Catalyst VCU's funded him congratulations on your launch these guys launched on Monday a hot new product software OS for networking powering white boxes in a whole new generation of potentially cloud computing welcome to this cube conversation congratulations on your >> launch thank you John >> so today I should talk about this this >> startup when do you guys were founded let's get to the specifics date you were founded some of the people on the team and the funding and we were formally incorporated in February of 2016 we really got going in earnest in August of 2016 and have you know chosen to stay in stealth the the founding team consists of myself a gentleman by the name of Kop tell he's our CTO we also have a gentleman by the name of Derek Young he's our chief architect and our backgrounds are a combination of the semiconductor industry I spent a lot of time in the semiconductor industry most recently I was president of easy chip and we sold that company to Mellanox and Kher and Derek our networking protocol experts spent 20 plus years at places like Cisco and arguably some of the best protocol guys in the world so the three of us got together and basically saw an opportunity to to bring some of the insights and and architectural innovation you know we had in mind to the Mobius a pedigree in there some some top talent absolutely some of the things that they've done in the past from some notable yeah I mean you know some if you if you'd like some just high-level numbers we have 600 plus years of experience of deep networking expertise within the company our collective team has shipped over 400 products to production we have over 200 IETF RFC papers that have been filed by the team as well as 150 plus patents so we really can do something on the pedigree for sure yeah we absolutely focused on getting the best talent in the world because we felt that it would be a significant differentiation to be able to start from a clean sheet of paper and so really having people who have that expertise allowed us to kind of take a step back and you know reimagine what could be possible with an operating system and gave us the benefit of being able to you know choose >> best-in-class approaches so what's the >> cap the point that this all came >> together what was the guiding vision was it network os's are going to be cloud-based was it going to be more I owe t what was the some of the founding principles that really got this going because clearly we see a trend where you know Intel's been dominating we see what NVIDIA is doing competitively certainly on the GPU side you're seeing the white box has become a trend Google makes their own stuff apples big making their own silicon seeking the that's kind of a whole big scale world out there that has got a lot of hardware experience what was the catalyst for you guys when you found this kinda was the guiding principle yeah I would say there were three John and you hit you hit on a couple of them in your reference to Intel and NVIDIA with some of the innovation but if I start at the top level the market the networking market is a large market and it's also very strategic and foundational in a hyper-connected world that market is also dominated by a few people and there's essentially three vertically integrated OEM so that dominate that market and when you have that type of dominance it leads to ultimately high prices and muted innovations so we felt number one the market was going through tremendous change but at the same time it had been tightly controlled by a few people the other part of it was that there was a tremendous amount of innovation that was happening at the silicon component level coming from the semiconductor industry I was early at Broadcom very you know involved in some of the networking things that happened in the early stages of the company we saw tremendous amounts of innovation feature velocity that was happening at the silicon component level that in turn led to a lot of system hardware people coming into the market and producing systems based on this wide variety of choices for you know for the silicon but the missing link was really an operating system that would unleash all that innovation so Silicon Valley is back Steve you you know you're a VC now but you were the CTO at VMware one of the companies that actually changed how data centers operate certainly as it certainly as a pretext and cloud computing was seeing with micro services and the growth of cloud silicon's hot IT operations is certainly being decimated as we old knew it in the past everything's being automated away you need more function now there's a demand this is this penny how you see I mean you always see things are a little early as of technologist now VC what got you excited about these guys what's the what's the bottom line yeah maybe two points on that which so one silicon is is definitely become interesting again if you will in the in the Silicon Valley area and I think that's partly because cloud scale and web scale allows these environments where you can afford to put in new hardware and really take advantage of it I was a semiconductor I first austerity too so it's exciting for me to see that but um you know is the fish that it's kind of a straightforward story you know especially in a world of whether it's cloud or IOT or everything networking is you know like literally the core to all of us working going forward and the opportunity to rethink it in a new design and in software first mentality felt kind of perfect right now I think I I think device even sell the team a little short even is with all the numbers that are there kr for instance this co-founder was sort of everyone you talk to will call him mister BGP which is one of the main routing protocols in the internet so just a ridiculously deep team trying to take this on and there been a few companies trying to do something kind of like this and I think what do they say that the second Mouse gets the cheese and I think I think we've seen some things that didn't work the first time around and we can really I think improve on them and have a >> chance to make a major impact on the networking market you know just to kind of go on a tangent here for a second >> because you know as you're talking kind of my brain is kind of firing away because you know one of things I've been talking about on the cube a lot is ageism and if you look at the movement of the cloud that's brought us systems mindset back you look at all the best successes out there right now it's almost a old guys and gals but it's really systems people people who understand networking and systems because the cloud is an operating system you have an operating system for networking so you're seeing that trend certainly happened that's awesome the question I have for you device is what is the difference what's the impact of this new network OS because I'm almost envisioning if I think through my mind's eye you got servers and server list certainly big train seeing and cloud it's one resource pools one operating system and that needs to have cohesiveness and connectedness through services so is this how you guys are thinking about how are you guys think about the network os what's different about what you guys are doing with ARC OS versus what's out there today now that's a great question John so in terms of in terms of what we've done the the third piece you know of the puzzle so to speak when we were talking about our team I talked a little bit about the market opportunity I talked a little bit about the innovation that was happening at the semiconductor and systems level and said the missing link was on the OS and so as I said at the onset we had the benefit of hiring some of the best people in the world and what that gave us the opportunity was to look at the twenty plus years of development that had happened on the operating system side for networking and basically identify those things that really made sense so we had the benefit of being able to adopt what worked and then augment that with those things that were needed for a modern day networking infrastructure environment and so we set about producing a product we call it our Co s and the the characteristics of it that are unique are that its first of all its best-in-class protocols we have minimal dependency on open source protocols and the reason for that is that no serious network operator is going to put an open source networking protocol in the core of their network they're just not going to risk their business and the efficacy and performance of their network for something like that so we start with best-in-class protocols and then we captured them in a very open modular Services microservices based architecture and that allows us the flexibility and the extensibility to be able to compose it in a manner that's consistent with what the end-use case is going to be so it's designed from the onset to be very scalable and very versatile in terms of where it can be deployed we can deploy it you know in a physical environment we can deploy it visa via a container or we could deploy it in the cloud so we're agnostic to all of those use case scenarios and then in addition to that we knew that we had to make it usable it makes no sense to have the best-in-class protocols if our end customers can't use them so what we've done is we've adopted open config yang based models and we have programmable api's so in any environment people can leverage their existing tools their existing applications and they can relatively easily and efficiently integrate our Co s into their networking environment and then similarly we did the same thing on the hardware side we have something that we call D pal it's a data plane adaptation layer it's an intelligent how and what that allows us to do is be Hardware agnostic so we're indifferent to what the underlying hardware is and what we want to do is be able to take advantage of the advancements in the silicon component level as well as at the system level and be able to deploy our go S anywhere it's let's take a step back so you guys so the protocols that's awesome what's the value proposition for our Co S and who's the target audience you mentioned data centers in the past is a data center operators is it developers is it service providers who was your target customer yeah so so the the piece of the puzzle that wraps everything together is we wanted to do it at massive scale and so we have the ability to support internet scale with deep routing capabilities within our Co s and as a byproduct of that and all the other things that we've done architectural II were the world's first operating system that's been ported to the high-end Broadcom strata DNX family that product is called jericho plus in the marketplace and as a byproduct of that we can ingest a full internet routing table and as a byproduct of that we can be used in the highest end applications for network operators so performance is a key value public performance as measured by internet scale as measured by convergence times as measured by the amount of control visibility and access that we provide and by virtue of being able to solve that high-end problem it's very easy for us to come down so in terms of your specific question about what are the use cases we have active discussions in data center centric applications for the leaf and spine we have active discussions for edge applications we have active discussions going on for cloud centric applications arcus can be used anywhere who's the buyer those network operator so since we can go look a variety of personas network operator large telco that's right inner person running a killer app that's you know high mission-critical high scale is that Mike right yeah you're getting you're absolutely getting it right basically anybody that has a network and has a networking infrastructure that is consuming networking equipment is a potential customer for ours now the product has the extensibility to be used anywhere in the data center at the edge or in the cloud we're very focused on some of the use cases that are in the CDN peering and IP you know route reflector IP peering use cases great Steve I want to get your thoughts because I say I know how you invest you guys a great great firm over there you're pretty finicky on investments certainly team check pedigrees they're on the team so that's a good inside market tamp big markets what's the market here for you but how do you see this market what's the bet for you guys on the market side yeah it's pretty pretty straightforward as you look at the size of the networking market with you know three major players around here and you know a longer tail owning a small piece of Haitian giant market is a great way to get started and if you believe in the and the secular trends that are going on with innovation and hardware and the ability to take advantage of them I think we have identified a few really interesting starting use cases and web-scale companies that have a lot of cost and needs in the networking side but what I would love about the software architecture it reminds me a lot of things do have kind of just even the early virtualization pieces if you if you can take advantage of movement in advantages and hardware as they improve and really bring them into a company more quickly than before then those companies are gonna be able to have you know better economics on their networking early on so get a great layer in solve a particular use case but then the trends of being able to take advantage of new hardware and to be able to provide the data and the API is to programmatic and to manage it who one would that it's creative limp limitless opportunity because with custom silicon that has you know purpose-built protocols it's easy to put a box together and in a large data center or even boxes yeah you can imagine the vendors of the advances and the chips really love that there's a good company that can take advantage of them more quickly than others can so cloud cloud service refined certainly as a target audience here large the large clouds would love it there's an app coming in Broadcom as a customer they a partner of you guys in two parts first comes a partner so we we've ported arc OS onto multiple members of the Broadcom switching family so we have five or six of their components their networking system on chip components that we've ported to including the two highest end which is the jericho plus and you got a letter in the Broadcom buying CA and that's gonna open up IT operations to you guys and volge instead of applications and me to talk about what you just said extensibility of taking what you just said about boxes and tying applique and application performance you know what's going to see that vertically integrated and i think i think eloping yeah from from a semiconductor perspective since i spent a lot of time in the industry you know one of the challenges i had founded a high court count multi processor company and one of the challenges we always had was the software and at easy chip we had the world's highest and network processor challenge with software and i think if you take all the innovation in the silicon industry and couple it with the right software the combination of those two things opens up a vast number of opportunities and we feel that with our Co s we provide you know that software piece that's going to help people take advantage of all the great innovation that's happening you mentioned earlier open source people don't want to bring open source at the core the network yet the open source communities are growing really at an exponential rate you starting to see open source be the lingua franca for all developers especially the modern software developers wine not open sourcing the core the amino acids gotta be bulletproof you need security obviously answers there but that seems difficult to the trend on open source what's the what's the answer there on why not open source in the core yeah so we we take advantage of open source where it makes sense so we take advantage of open and onl open network Linux and we have developed our protocols that run on that environment the reason we feel that the protocols being developed in-house as opposed to leveraging things from the open source community are the internet scale multi-threading of bgp integrating things like open config yang based models into that environment right well it's not only proven but our the the the capabilities that we're able to innovate on and bring unique differentiation weren't really going back to a clean sheet of paper and so we designed it ground-up to really be optimized for the needs of today Steve your old boss Palmer rich used to talk about the harden top mmm-hmm similar here right you know one really no one's really gonna care if it works great it's under the under the harden top where you use open source as a connection point for services and opportunities to grow that similar concept yes I mean at the end of the day open source is great for certain things and for community and extensibility and for visibility and then on the flip side they look to a company that's accountable and for making sure it performs and as high quality and so I think I think that modern way for especially for the mission critical infrastructure is to have a mix of both and to give back to community where it makes sense to be responsible for hardening things are building them when they don't expense so how'd you how'd you how'd you land these guys you get him early and don't sit don't talk to any other VCS how did it all come together between you guys we've actually been friends for a while which has been great in it at one point we actually decided to ask hey what do you actually do I found that I was a venture investor and he is a network engineer but now I actually have actually really liked the networking space as a whole as much as people talk about the cloud or open source or storage being tough networking is literally everywhere and will be everywhere and whatever our world looks like so I always been looking for the most interesting companies in that space and we always joke like the investment world kind of San Francisco's applications mid here's sort of operating systems and the lower you get the more technical it gets and so well there's a vaccine I mean we're a media company I think we're doing things different we're team before we came on camera but I think media is undervalued I wrote just wrote a tweet on that got some traction on that but it's shifting back to silicon you're seeing systems if you look at some of the hottest areas IT operations is being automated away AI ops you know Auto machine learning starting to see some of these high-end like home systems like that's exactly where I was gonna go it's like the vid I I especially just love very deep intellectual property that is hard to replicate and that you can you know ultimately you can charge a premium for something that is that hard to do and so that's that's really something I get drugs in the deal with in you guys you have any other syndicates in the video about soda sure you know so our initial seed investor was clear ventures gentleman by the name of Chris rust is on our board and then Steve came in and led our most recent round of funding and he also was on the board what we've done beyond that institutional money is we have a group of very strategic individual investors two people I would maybe highlight amongst the vast number of advisers we have our gentleman by the name of Pankaj Patel punka JH was the chief development officer at Cisco he was basically number two at Cisco for a number of years deep operating experience across all facets of what we would need and then there's another gentleman by the name of Amarjeet Gill I've been friends with armored teeth for 30 years he's probably one of the single most successful entrepreneurs in the he's incubated companies that have been purchased by Broadcom by Apple by Google by Facebook by Intel by EMC so we were fortunate enough to get him involved and keep him busy great pedigree great investors with that kind of electoral property and those smart mines they're a lot of pressure on you as the CEO not to screw it up right I mean come on now get all those smart man come on okay you got it look at really good you know I I welcome it actually I enjoy it you know we look when you have a great team and you have as many capable people surrounding you it really comes together and so I don't think it's about me I actually think number one it's about I was just kidding by the way I think it's about the team and I'm merely a spokesperson to represent all the great work that our team has done so I'm really proud of the guys we have and frankly it makes my job easier you've got a lot of people to tap for for advice certainly the shared experiences electively in the different areas make a lot of sense in the investors certainly yeah up to you absolutely absolutely and it's not it's not just at the at the board it's just not at the investor level it's at the adviser level and also at you know at our individual team members when we have a team that executes as well as we have you know everything falls into place well we think the software worlds change we think the economics are changing certainly when you look at cloud whether it's cloud computing or token economics with blockchain and new emerging tech around AI we think the world is certainly going to change so you guys got a great team to kind of figure it out I mean you got a-you know execute in real time you got a real technology play with IP question is what's the next step what is your priorities now that you're out there congratulations on your launch thank you in stealth mode you got some customers you've got Broadcom relationships and looking out in the landscape what's your what's your plan for the next year what's your goals really to take every facet of what you said and just scale the business you know we're actively hiring we have a lot of customer activity this week happens to be the most recent IETF conference that happened in Montreal given our company launch on Monday there's been a tremendous amount of interest in everything that we're doing so that coupled with the existing customer discussions we have is only going to expand and then we have a very robust roadmap to continue to augment and add capabilities to the baseline capabilities that we brought to the market so I I really view the next year as scaling the business in all aspects and increasingly my time is going to be focused on commercially centric activities right well congratulations got a great team we receive great investment cube conversation here I'm John furry here the hot startup here launching this week here in California in Silicon Valley where silicon is back and software is back it's the cube bringing you all the action I'm John Fourier thanks for watching [Music]

want people to find their passion and purpose in life and achieve that because if you do what you love you know a lot of us do what we love some of us don't but if you do what you love you can be way more productive and happier right and then the end of day isn't that our goal okay bitchy it's okay to be cranky it's okay for anchor anger to fuel you it's okay to be aggressive and even if your male counterparts tell you otherwise or say wow that's unseemly I think it's just okay we don't have to be pure and perfect in order to be successful a plenty of mine she's the founder of Austen women magazine and she has this catchphrase that's fabulous because the female role models if you can't see it you can't be right so if I'm a 24 year old young lady just graduating I don't see anyone else who looks like I think it is really important that you know there's all those cliches around the fact that you know you've got to go through the windows sometimes or you know opportunities are masked and they really are and so just saying yes to everything and really being open to trying new things and learning new experiences will give you opportunity didn't even realize and now I've been in it long enough where someone I met a couple years ago who was just at a conference kind of dabbling took a course from girls in tech and is now in the career field and they're kind of introducing girls detecting other so it's amazing is what it it's no longer grassroots this is actually making

(upbeat music) >> From San Francisco, it's The Cube, covering Girls in Tech Catalyst Conference. Brought to you by Girls in Tech. >> Hey welcome back everybody, Jeff Frick here, with The Cube. We're at Downtown San Francisco, Girls in Tech Catalyst. Great event. We've been coming for a couple of years. About 700 professionals, mainly women, a few men, and I think they brought in a busload of kids to get inspired, talking about their stories, and really, it's a series. It's a one-track conference, two days, about 20 minute talks and really good stuff. Really great content. Check it out online if you didn't register this year. Make sure you come next year, and we're excited to have our next guest, Cube alum, really from one of the hottest companies in tech right now, she's Wendy Pfeifer, the CIO of Nutanix. Wendy, great to see you again. >> Hey, nice to see you, Jeff. >> Absolutely, so we see you at Nutanix Next all the time, but we haven't seen you at Girls in Tech. >> Yeah. >> So how long have you been involved in Girls in Tech? >> So, I've been involved since the very first meet up, more than 10 years ago. Girls in Tech was very inspiring to me, and I was here at the Catalyst Conference last year, and I'm a member of the board of Girls in Tech as well, so I'm able to give back and provide some leadership at that level. >> So we just had Adriana on, and she was going through-- >> Yeah. >> Some of the numbers, I mean, the growth of this organization, second to Nutanix, is off the chart. >> Yeah. >> I mean, really amazing. >> It really is amazing, you know. In some ways our time has come. Adriana's had this big vision for a really long time. Really focused on educating women, helping them to understand the potential of careers in tech, and technology knowledge, and that's a global message, and a message that resonates at every age level, and in lots of different sectors of society, so it's juts a privilege to be able to partner with her and others on the board, to enable the vision, and Nutanix as well, you know, is donating, is present here at these conferences, and partnering at Catalyst and Amplify, and other parts of the organization. >> Right, because it's not only the right thing to do, it's also good business, which has been proven time and time again. >> Absolutely, and you know, it's kind of taken on this passion, mission, just excitement thing, but it is practical as well and you know, all the studies, I'm sure so many folks have talked with you about this. There's so many studies, there's so much research that says diversity brings better decision-making, better product development. >> Right. >> And better satisfaction in our work environments as well. >> Right. The other thing that struck me talking to Adriana, and I guess I just didn't know, kind of the breadth of types of activities that Girls in Tech's put on. So we've been to Catalyst before. We've been to-- the Pitch Night, Amplify-- >> Amplify, yeah. >> But I didn't know, she's running, you know, there's all kinds of different-- types of things. >> Absolutely. I think the underlying passion is for education. If you think about, particularly people in underserved communities, there is a real opportunity, you know coding, and learning to code, learning to interact with computers; that's a language that transcends geographic boundaries, ethnic boundaries, age, and religious boundaries, and it's something that, you know ever since my days at Yahoo, I really felt like technology could bring the world together, and today in particular, there is so much disparity between women and men and their access to technology education and technology careers. >> Right. >> That this is, you know, more than just creating a level playing field. I think we're making our own playing field. We're not going to their playing field, anymore. We're creating our own at locations like this. >> Right, and clearly a bunch of founders are here today, who've-- >> Yeah. >> Started their own companies. But the other thing I think is interesting, is culture keeps coming up time and time again in all these conversations, and Adriana's built a culture starting, always from the top down, with the board. It's a phenomenal board of professional women-- >> Yes. >> That she's pulled together of this organization. >> Yeah, there are a couple of males on the board, too. I want to make sure I point out. >> Yep. >> Because we're a diverse board as well, but she has. She has brought together people who are leaders in the technology space, but also folks who are passionate about building a healthy nonprofit organization; one that's global, one that can scale, and so we also look at the fundamentals, and the business fundamentals as well, so we are expanding from 60 to 100 countries, and from 100,000 members to 200,000 members, I mean, who would think, right? >> Right, right, right. >> It's extraordinary. Even then, though, those 200,000 women are a drop in the bucket, compared to the 50% of the global population-- >> Right. >> Who are female. >> Right. And then you work at Nutanix. Super hot-- >> Yeah. >> I don't want to say startup anymore. You guys have IPO'd. >> Right, right. >> But, you know, but you're livin' it in terms of trying to get enough, good, qualified talent-- >> Yes. >> Just to feed the one engine that I Nutanix, so it's a real-- >> Yeah. >> Demand in the market place. >> Definitely, that's the case, you know, we sort of struggle with the thought, you know, are there just not enough women candidates in these fields, but what we learn at conferences like this is, that there are enough women candidates, but we don't necessarily recognize those women, and we don't know where to find them, and they may not find the sort of work that we represent to be attractive. And so we're sort of trying to change how we speak and think. Culture is a good word, but it's a revolution. It's a cultural revolution in terms of identifying talent where it sits. We spoke a lot in the last day and a half around blended careers, the bringing together of art and technology, or communication and technology, and the fact is that technology just underscores everything we do-- >> Right. >> Nowadays. >> Right. >> And so, you know, having people who can blend those things, is a real advantage, and women have this ability to take a multi-faceted approach to the work that we do and the way that we live our lives. We multi-task as a sport. >> Right, right. It's interesting, too, as the machines get better and as A.I. gets better, machine learning, the softer skills applied with the context become so much more important than necessarily just the super hard-core coding skills. >> You know, I have a story around that. So, we've just deployed, my IT department has deployed a machine-learning tool at Nutanix, to replace a lot of the interactions that happen on our help desk, and we found we just couldn't scale as the company was scaling, so we've been training A.I. from a company called Moveworks, and you know, we've been training it uniquely with our voice, and I think a little bit with my voice, and I just had one of our employees write back to me and say, "Not only is this thing", we call it Xbot, "Not only is Xbot solving my problems, but", he said, "she is pretty sassy, too." And I'm like, yay, he knows it's a she! >> Right, right. >> Right, and she's sassy too, so yeah, that unique voice-- >> Right. >> Is infusing even the machine-learning training that we're doing-- >> Right. >> And I think that makes for a more delightful experience-- >> Right. >> For all of us. >> It's funny, the voice thing, 'cause you know, Google had their very famous, the restaurant reservation call-in demo-- >> Yes! >> They got capped on a little bit-- >> Right. >> For, you know, was it real or not, but what made it so, so dramatic was the human-like elements in the conversation of the machine-- with ums, and ahs-- >> Absolutely. >> And uhs, and pauses, which we laugh about, 'cause we can shoot Cube interviews, everybody wants to cut those parts out, and we're like no, that's what makes people, people. >> Right, exactly, I agree with you. And at the same time, you know, there are, you know, things that are uniquely female stereotypes. We're more wordy. We have more things to say. >> Right. >> You know, we're more multi-dimensional. We can hold two thoughts at the same time, and so that's part of the richness of communication and our interaction too, but to the extent to which we can embed that in our technologies and our interactions, those are the extent to which they'll be more delightful-- >> Right. >> It's no coincidence that Siri and Cortana and all of those A.I.s sort of have this female persona, and I don't know if you know this, the, you know, Cortana, who's the Microsoft, you know, A.I., you know, she's voiced by the same character that's Cortana in one of their video games-- >> Oh, really? >> And she's sort of this like, badass fighter gal, too, so check it out. >> Well, we know what happened to Bob, right? >> Right. >> I know, poor Bob. >> Which, ironically, was Melinda Gates's project. Which, I don't know if you knew-- that story. >> I did not know that. >> So yeah, Melinda Gates's introduction to Bill was as product manager for Bob, which, if you don't know that story, check it out. It's old history. >> Oh, that's-- fantastic! >> But it's very good. Alright, before I let you go, one last thing. >> Yes. >> So you spoke, and they've got these great posters all around the room with little highlights from people's-- >> Yes. >> Conversations and yours was, I described it off the wall, "It's okay to be bad." >> Yes. >> I'd love, for the people that missed it, what's the message there? It's an important message. >> Yeah. >> Especially for women. >> Yeah, I think as women, you know, we don't have a lot of role models and when I get up as a role model, I'm one of the few CIO's who's female and Silicon Valley. You know, we give these speeches, and they sort of make us like Mother Teresa, you know. First you hae your mission in mind, and you lean in, and you do all these awesome things. But the fact is, it is actually okay, to be yourself. It's okay to be bitchy. It's okay to be cranky. It's okay for anger to fuel you. It's okay to be aggressive, and even if your male counterparts tell you otherwise, or say, "Wow, that's "unseemly.", I think it's just okay. We don't have to be pure and perfect in order to be successful. I can be those things all at the same time. And I also say, it's also okay to be good, to be merciful, to be soft-spoken, to be wordy, to be studious; that combination of things. We're allowed to be our genuine selves, and we don't have to be perfect to be successful and I feel like I embody that-- in particular. >> Yes, you certainly do. You certainly do! >> What, I'm not perfect? >> Yes, I mean the Nutanix story is a phenomenal story. >> It is. We are fortunate, we've been there since the beginning-- >> Absolutely. >> Watching it grow, and so no-- >> Helping us to frame the story, so thanks to The Cube. I appreciate that. >> Well, and you're super successful, and the company's successful so the fact that are Wendy, you know, you are who you are. You're a big personality, and it comes through, and it's great, and it works, and you're successful, so, if they need someone to look up to, you're certainly a fantastic role model. >> Thank you so much. Well I appreciate that. It's funny, 'cause I have never tried to be a role model, and now, just by accident, I've survived long enough. Here I am. (both laughing) >> Well that's a whole different conversation-- >> Right, right. >> You just look around like, I am the oldest guy in the room. But that's a different thing. >> I know. You're actually the only guy, just sayin'. >> Alright, well Wendy thanks for takin' a few minutes, and I guess we'll see you next at Nutanix next, if not sooner. >> I look forward to it, thanks. >> Alright, thanks. She's Wendy, I'm Jeff, you're watching The Cube from women, or Girls in Tech Catalyst 2018. (upbeat music)

>> From San Francisco, it's theCUBE, covering Girls in Tech Catalyst Conference, brought to you by Girls in Tech. >> Hey, welcome back, everybody. Jeff Frick here at theCUBE. We're in downtown San Francisco at the Girls in Tech Catalyst Conference, about 700 professionals. It's a really cool conference. It's a single track, two days. All the presentations are about 15, 20 minutes of people telling their stories, vast majority of women, a couple of men. I think they brought in some younger kids to get inspired. So we're excited to be here. Been coming for a couple years. And our next guest, many time CUBE alum, I just know her as Sandy Carter. She does have a title, VP of Enterprise Workloads at AWS, but I dunno, Sandy, how long have you been coming on the CUBE, how many years? >> Oh, wow, I don't know. >> Too many to count, and we don't want to admit to it. >> Yeah, it's true, but thank you guys for supporting events like this, Jeff, because I know that you guys have been supporting Women in Tech, and Girls in Tech for so long, and we really appreciate that very much. Thank you. >> And it's so important, and we love to do it, and we especially love when it's right in our backyard. It makes it really easy just to grab some crew and run up here. >> (laughing) That's right. >> So give us an update. You are chairman of the board now, and I think we've probably talked to probably three or four board members today. It's a really impressive group of people, and Adriana has done amazing things with this organization in the last 11 years. And you're sittin' watching it grow internationally, the number of events, the types of events. Give us your perspective. >> Yeah, so I think Girls in Tech is an amazing organization. That's why I decided to join the board and then to take on the chairman of the board position. And the reason I think it's so powerful is that it's really focused on young women, millennial women who are looking to become business owners, leaders, entrepreneurs and who want to apply technology to make themselves more competitive. You know, I know Adriana came up with this in 2007, but even today, the mission and the values are still really relevant. These are the top things that women need to know about today, and this is really about filling up the pipeline, sharing experiences. The conference today, I don't know if you got to hear any of the sessions, but they're really not about, you know, let me do technical skills. It's really about how do you break through the next level, how do you grow your business, how do you scale. And so it's really those type of topics that we can share experiences as experienced businesswomen with others so that they can learn and grow from that. >> Right, and just really simple stuff, like raise your hand, take the new assignment, take a risk. >> You got it, the crooked path. >> The crooked path, that was the one I was looking for. And do something that you don't necessarily have experience in, whether it's finance or accounting or HR or product management, sales. You know, take a risk, and chances are you're going to get paid off for it, and I think those simple lessons are so, so important. And then, of course, which comes up time and time again is just to have role models, senior role models who've been successful, who have an interesting story, they have a crooked path, it wasn't easy it wasn't even defined, but here they are as successful so that the younger women can look up to them. >> Yeah, absolutely, and I think that it's, you know the big message today, I think, for women was have the confidence. Basically that sums up what you just said, right? Be confident, and even if you don't feel confident, show confidence. >> Right, right. >> Which I think is so important.. >> Fake it 'til you make it, right >> That's right. You got it, you got it. >> 'Cause everybody else is, you just don't know it. >> That's right. >> You think they know what they're doing. They're doing the same thing. >> That's right. Well, it's interesting, one of the stats today said that men will apply for a job if they have 60% of the qualifications. Women will only apply if they have between 90 or 95%. So I think being able to know that you're confident and that you're going to make it, that you're going to do things and going ahead and taking that risk is really important. >> So the other big shift that we've seen in this conference is really the corporate sponsorship. So AWS is here obviously. You're here. You're on the board. But the amount of logos, the size of the companies on the logos has really grown a lot since I think we were first at this one in Phoenix in 2016. >> Phoenix, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. >> So not only, again, is that the right thing to do, but it's also really good business to get involved, and you great ROI for being involved in these types of organizations. >> That's right. You know, innovation is really about having diversity of thought, and so having women, having different colleges, having different sexual orientation, just diversity really helps you to innovate. >> Right. >> 93% of CEOs said that innovation is their number one competitive advantage. So we're seeing a lot of companies now pick up on that and know that they've got to come and they've got to be attractive, not only as a company that people would want to work at, an employer, but also just as a company that you might want to do business with. So today, I love the story of GoDaddy. She was saying GoDaddy was targeting small businesses. Well, most of those are run by women, but they weren't doing the right targeting. So I think it's a phenomenal change that we're seeing with companies like this doing the support. AWS, Amazon Web Services is proud to be one of the major sponsors. We had Charlie, one of our SVPs on stage today, chatting about lessons he've learned, but we've also don't things like understanding how women are buying, and we're doing focus groups, and we're doing different things like that to really help us gain insight. >> Right, so final question, from the board point of view as you look forward in the expansion opportunities, they seem almost unlimited between the countries, the participants and the variation in types of events that you guys are undertaking. It's really quite a bit to bite off. >> Well, you know, we have kind of a two prong mission. One is for entrepreneurs, and so you're seeing us really emphasize classes and things like our Amplify event where we have women come and pitch ideas that really grow that side of the business. In fact, I was just in Cuba last week, on behalf of Girls in Tech, talking to female entrepreneurs there and how we could help them because they really want us to set up some classes there to teach these entrepreneurs how to grow. And the second prong of our mission is around technology and coding. So we've got classes. We've got things with AWS like We Power Tech, so that women can learn technology and use it for their competitive advantage. So while it seems like we're doing a lot of things, it's really around that two prong mission, entrepreneurship and that coding technology focus. >> Alright, well, Sandy, thanks again for stopping by, and really congratulations to you, not only in what you do at AWS, but really just some very, very important work with Girls in Tech. >> Great, thank you, and thank you for being so supportive. We appreciate it very much. >> Our pleasure. Alright, She's Sandy Carter. I'm Jeff Frick. You're watching theCUBE from Girls in Tech Catalyst in downtown San Francisco. Thanks for watchin'. (upbeat electronic music)

>> From San Francisco, it's theCUBE covering Girls in Tech Catalyst Conference, brought to you by Girls in Tech. (upbeat digital music) >> Hey, welcome back everybody. Jeff Frick here with theCUBE. We're in downtown San Fransico at the Girls In Tech Catalyst Conference 2018. About 700 people, mainly women, some men. I think they brought in a school bus load of girls to participate. And really it's a two-day, single track conference. A lot of, just presentations by senior executive women telling their story, how they got to where they were, giving some inspirational advice. And we're psyched to be here. Adriana runs a great, great conference. It's a super organization, and we're excited to have our next guest. She's Wendy Howell, the chief of staff for Cisco Services. Wendy, great to see you. >> Great to see you, thank you for having me. >> Absolutely, so you're here instead of Cisco Live, which I think is great for you. What do think about this event? Why are you involved in Girls in Tech? >> Yeah, so I discovered Girls in Tech probably about three years ago and saw Adriana speak on just some interview. And I went, I don't know who she is, but I love her, and I love her message. So fast forward, attended my first Catalyst about three years ago, found out that we had two VPs that were on the board at Cisco which I didn't know. So, what's going on here? Let's do something with these guys. They were trying to put together a global partnership, and we really, they just couldn't get it over the line. Well, what's the problem? Funding. Okay, well let's fund it and let's just go. So we signed a global partnership two years ago with Girls in Tech. We've done, I think we've sponsored, overall with Cisco, about 15 different events. Catalyst Conference, AMPLIFY Women's Pitch Night. I think we've done eight. Hacking for Humanity events globally. It's just an amazing organization. It's the right organization at the right time. You know Adriana. She is amazing, she's a force of nature. And so I liken myself to be a mini Adriana for Cisco. (laughs) It's the time to get more and more focus on getting women in tech, and especially making sure that we have role models for the young ladies that are coming up in technology. >> Right, right. That's funny, that's how we found Adriana as well. I think she was on at a IBM event many, many moons ago and said you know, we got to get involved. >> It was random. >> The Pitch Night is really fun. You know, that's just a great event. And one of the ones from a couple years ago is really taking off, the little like, tile-like device. >> That's right, that's right. >> Which I can't remember the name, but it's not tile. >> And in fact, I saw one of your interviews, I think it was Sandy Carter. I don't know whether it was >> Yeah. the last year or the year before, I just did volunteer, >> Good, good. and it was great. >> So you know, the sponsorship list has really grow this year, and it's a who's who of corporate logos, >> Absolutely. which is great. We're looking at it over, across the way. And we talked about it a little bit before we turned on the cameras, about how some of the bigger tech companies specifically, 'cause it's kind of a tech focused event, obviously, can be, not only more involved, but a little bit more thoughtful, a little bit more organized, a little bit more coordinated in the way that they put resources behind events such as Girls in Tech. So why don't talk to kind of what your experience is there, what are guys doing, how are you trying to add a little bit more purpose and organization behind your efforts? >> Right, and again, originally the partnership, it came together quite fast after we sort of said hey let's just go do this. So then our first year, we really were focused specifically on events, and let's do events together to really get our name associated with the brand of Girls in Tech, which is global, and phenomenoal, and 100,000 plus members, etc. This year, in our second year, I think we're being a little more thoughtful, and we really want to continue to show the ROI for our organization. So we're really focusing more on the recruiting aspect. And there's some new cool things coming out on that front from Girls In Tech. And I really want to just say, hey it's great to have our name associated with Girls In Tech, but what's it doing for us? What are we doing for the women that we're supporting? Let's hire them into Cisco, let's hire them into AWS. So that's a real big key focus area for us this year. Plus the events, 'cause this is, you know, not only is it great for us, but I get to bring my team here and they come away feeling fantastic and amazing, and I get all psyched watching all these young ladies walk around. >> Right. >> Many of them, I'm like, I wasn't even thinking about things like this when I was your age. Back in the day (laughs). >> That's right, dune day, thankfully. >> That's right. >> So that's interesting, in terms of how do you measure your ROI in the investment? Clearly, recruiting has got to big a piece right? You can never get enough >> Yeah. people, and even though machines are going to take everybody's job, Everyone >> That's right one day seems to have a whole lot of open recs, and can't fill the people. So is there anything else that you look at besides just hiring, or is it the number of people that come through the process? How do you measure? 'Cause we know it's not only just good and the right thing to do, but there's real business benefit to participating in diversity programs. >> Absolutely. And I mean, every large organization right now, over the last three years, has come to that realization. This diversity is not just a buzz word, it's a thing. We know that there is greater ideas that come out of it, more diverse ideas, bookings, I mean, there's real, relatable, tangible feedback that you can get from it, right? >> Right, right. So recruiting is a big one for us, but also we look at the impact. You know, every quarter, we sit down with Girls In Tech and we get an impact report of what are you Cisco, what have you done, Cisco, and what has it done for Girls In Tech, and what has it done for us? How many people have we had attend a Hack-A-Thon? How many dollars have we supported with? How many people are going through a boot camp? So that's sort of the way we look at it as well, the impact report, also. >> And do you find it's a higher kind of ROI, in, not so much a smaller organization, but these are relatively small events compared to Cisco Live and a lot of the big events that are in the industry. Is it just a more focused return? Is it a better return? How does it fit in with your whole strategy? Yeah, I would call it more focused. It's more of a niche, but it still provides us, and we're growing, right? So we're only >> Right. the second year in, and I truly believe that if we continue our focus in this area, I can see a strong, high trajectory if you will. >> Right. So just a pitch for companies like Cisco that aren't involved with Girls in Tech, who you may compete with, you may not compete with, you probably partner with out in the ecosystem, what would you tell 'em about this organization and why they should get more involved? Yeah, I mean, I think there's a couple things. So number one, Adriana herself, and the brand of her, and the brand that is Girls In Tech now. If you think about it, I mean, 10, 11 years now, so going from one chapter to 62 plus, hopefully 75, I think, by 2020 is the goal, and now 100,000 plus members, being associated with this brand is fabulous for your business, but you know, it's also the right thing to do. Because again, I go back to my super passionate about the next generation of female leaders and these role models that the younger folks are seeing. You can't, you can't even put a price on how valuable that is for them. >> It's so funny, talk about the role models, we interviewed Maria Klawe, who runs Harvey Mudd, years ago, at Grace Hopper, and that was such a big part of her theme right? >> Are there people, >> Absolutely. are there women that the younger gals can look up to, and see oh, she looks kind of like me, or I could be like like her one day, and it's such an important thing. And she talked about, you know, Zuckerburg, and Jobs, and kind of the male tech rock stars, if you will, are tech rock stars, but they're not necessarily the ones that some 14 year old [Wendy] 10-25, or 14 13 year old, or 25 is going to look up to and say, that's me >> Exactly. in a few years, if I work, so ... >> Exactly. >> It's such an important piece of the whole component. >> My friend, a buddy of mine, she's the founder of Austin Women magazine. And she has this catch phrase that's fabulous. She goes, the female role models, if you can't see it, you can't be it. So if I'm a 24 year old young lady that's graduating, and I don't see anyone else who looks like me, then what do I do? So that's why I love this event in particular. It's my passion event, yeah. >> Alright, well Wendy, your passion comes through and thanks for taking a few minutes of your time with us. >> Absolutely, thank you for having me. >> Absolutely. Alright, she's Wendy Howell, I'm Jeff Frick. We are at Girls In Tech Catalyst in downtown San Francisco, thanks for watching. (upbeat digital music)

>> From San Francisco, it's theCube, covering Girls in Tech Catalyst Conference, brought to you by Girls in Tech.. >> Hey, welcome back everybody. Jeff Rick here with theCUBE. We're in downtown San Francisco at the Girls in Tech Catalyst Conference 2018. About 700 mainly women, a few men, and they just brought in a busload of kids to come in and hear inspirational stories, really of women in technical leadership positions for the last two days. It's a really great event. We're excited to be back for a second time, and our next guest who's been travelin' just as much as theCube team, all the way back from Cisco Live, which we were at yesterday. Shubha Govil, she's the director of product management from Cisco. Welcome. >> Thank you. >> So how was Cisco Live? >> Cisco Live was awesome. Yes, we had very different audience there. Percentage of women, as you can imagine, sometimes in the networking industry, is not as much as we would like to see, but that's why we are here. >> That's why you're here. >> And we are really trying to bring in lot more women in our product teams within Cisco. Again, it comes down to having the 50/50 voice, so this is a great place to be to meet other like-minded women, in industry, and trying to get some talent. >> Well, good for you for making the trip, 'cause I'm sure you guys are wiped out. When it's your own show you work harder than any other show, but it really begs a question. How long has Cisco been involved in Girls in Tech, and, again, what is it that this gives you that's so different than a big conference? >> Correct, so Cisco has been involved for last few years for Girls in Tech, and just like we have been involved with several other organizations in the industry, really it comes down to being out there and spotting the talent. Big part of that is being at the events, and networking with the talent, and understanding their needs. This comes down to really finding the right perspective, as well as the cultural fit for people that we bring in. The best part about the Girls in Tech events is that they're a lot more hands-on training that they are doing, in terms of as part of Cisco's DevNet environment. So I'm part of Cisco's DevNet team, and we are driving Cisco's developer program, to build more on top of Cisco's APIs, and in that role, always looking for people who are ready to go hands on, and build cool solutions on top of Cisco API, so this is a great place to have been doing a lot of coding camps, and other formal boot camps where girls can come in, and be part of this ecosystem, be ready for the next opportunity that comes. >> It's interesting because you can't just do what you could do in the past, which is just go do the campus recruiting, and kind of the things that we think of as everyday HR pipeline, because you need more, and you need more diverse. So to be active in all these various organizations that have very strong focuses in diversity, whether it be women or unrepresented populations, et cetera. So, pretty interesting investment that you guys are making there, with time, money, and people. >> Absolutely, absolutely. It is key. It is totally the key for Cisco, and for every single technology company out there to be out there and finding the diverse opinion. It really comes down to technologies not made just for men, and 50% of female population, there's not a lot of thinking that goes in in designing the technology as to how different people will use it, and big part of it is bringing the people who can think from that perspective, and that's kind of where we are out there, making sure that we can bring in that opinion. >> And the culture's such a bit thing, and you guys had such a big culture change with the new CEO shift, because there's such strong personalities, and now you guys have moved onto a new CEO. We keep hearing about culture over and over again, and how important it is to bring that up. So how important is it from the cultural aspect to be involved, and get these diversity of opinion? >> It is huge. So really, Chuck Robbins has been bringing a very humble culture, people really trying to be there for everyone, each other. And as a committee, you are really building the talent, not just for doing the right jobs, and bringing the right perspective, but also culturally bringing those opinions, as well as bringing the thinking that's going to change the culture moving forward. The technology disruption that's around us has to do a lot with how, culturally, things are changing. There is amalgamation of people coming from all over the world, and in that mode, when you're designing a technology, or when you are from networking perspective, as we think about Cisco's networking culture, network engineers are evolving too, and they are becoming more part of programmable network, and that culture shift goes along with it, which is to bring in the right people culture, and part of it is being out at the events, and meeting people coming from different places, and bringing those opinions. >> It's interesting we're at Bespoke, because I think it was last year we were here with the Cisco DevNet Team, and really a different kind of point of view coming out of Cisco, led by Susie Wee and the team, in terms of reaching out for developers, not a closed system, really trying to engage with the developer community. >> And that's part of it. Cisco's DevNet Committee is, we recently crossed a milestone of 500,000 developers. >> Oh, so I heard that was the big celebration at the party, right? Half a million, very good. >> Big celebration at Cisco Live. >> Congratulations. >> And DevNet Create was an attempt in that direction as well, to really bring the application developer, and that thinking about network engineers who have been changing the way each application works, how the internet of things is going to further drive the growth of internet, in that world, we also need a lot of application developers coming in, and that was the attempt for DevNet Create Conference, and that's where Girls in Tech and other such events are very important. >> Right, and only going to be more crazy when 5G comes online in a couple years. The demand for networking is, and the bandwidth is not slowing down anytime soon. >> It's not. (laughs) >> All right, Shubha, well thank you for spending a few times, I'm sure you are tired after the long event, so hopefully you get through this and you can take it easy this weekend. >> Thanks, Jeff. It was good to talk to you. >> All right, thanks for stopping by. I'm Jeff, and you're watching theCUBE from Girls in Tech Conference 2018. Thanks for watching. (laid-back electronic music)

(music) >> From San Francisco, it's theCUBE. Covering Girls in Tech Catalyst Conference brought to you by Girls in Tech. >> Hey, welcome back everybody. Jeff Frick here with theCUBE. We're in downtown San Francisco at the Girls in Tech Catalyst event. Really great event, about 700 people, couple days. It's just a single track, a lot of presentations, about 20-minute presentations, by a bunch of female leaders telling their story, how did they get where they got. What advice could they give. And there's men, women here. They just brought in, I think, a busload of students. So it's a really great event. We're excited to be here and we're psyched for our next guest. She's Rashmi Kumar, the SVP Supply Chain and Procurement from McKesson, welcome. >> Hi, thank you Jeff. >> Absolutely, so you said you hadn't been to this event before. You keep trying to come, but things don't, keep getting in the way. So, what do you think, now that you're here? >> Absolutely, I'm so glad to be here. I'm so thankful to McKesson for being the lead sponsor of the event. I'm really excited to see the energy here. >> Yeah, so how did McKesson become the lead sponsor cause that's a really nice statement on the company to really get involved in something like Girls in Tech. >> Yeah, so McKesson is a company which is sitting at the intersection of healthcare. Guess what, it's something on which our lives depend on. But this is the industry which is most behind in technology. So we want to do everything to grow technology talent across the country in this space to enable better health care for our patients. >> Right. It's interesting, we talked before we turned the cameras on that there's still a huge talent gap. It's funny cause we go to a lot of shows and they talk about the machines are taking all the jobs and there's not going to be jobs for people. But, in fact, there's still a ton of jobs, there's still a ton of opportunity in tech. We still don't have enough people so we have to bring in women, we have to bring in other folks to help fill all these great opportunities. >> Yeah, absolutely. When we talk about machine and AI, we are not talking about pure AI taking away the job. It will be enabling human being to do better job and will improve our quality of life. Who will build those machines, though? You need technologists, we need technologists who will build that machine and we are here to grow ourselves and grow our people. Sitting where I am at SVP of Supply Chain role, all the commerce is moving from store front to e-commerce. That is run by programs and technologies and there are jobs in warehouses for people to enable the e-commerce but how do we build those platforms that will enable our patients to get their medication at their doorsteps and not have to go run from pharmacy to pharmacy to find it. We need technologists for it. >> It's interesting because supply chain's been automized for a long time and early days of tech innovation where is was ERP and SAP. So what lessons can you tell from procurement that now we see in more customer-facing and direct-to-consumer tech involvement? Because you still have people, you still there's a lot of automation in procurement, but you still have a lot of things for people to do. >> Yeah, so as the supply chain was more business-to-business we were focused on the customer experience of for, say, pharmacists or the experience of a person who was working on the warehouse floor. And we didn't worry about it, the gray screens, green screens, whatever we put. Now you think about an autonomous car or you think about a drone delivering medicine... You need to give the interaction to every person which enables them to consume those services. This whole field of human computer interaction is new. >> [Jeff} Yeah. >> Machines will run the cars and we don't have to drive it. How I interact with it, somebody needs to define it and then tweak it and grow it. That's also another point about all technology and digital product. You can pivot and change and bring in new functionality, satisfy human consumerization of technologies, changing human needs to interact with technology as well. And we need all kinds of people, from all backgrounds because diversity brings in diverse thinking, which brings in better products. >> Yeah, it does. It's not only the right thing to do, but it actually delivers much better results and bottom line. So you're here, you're running a workshop today. So tell us a little bit about the workshop that you're running. >> Yeah, so the workshop, my topic is make your pitch perfect, which is around the whole topic of elevator pitch. But because it's Girls in Tech Conference, we women want to be 200% sure that we are good to do a job and we don't branch out to highlight the work that we are doing already. Which could get us in that next position. So, how as a professional we should interact with not only our managers and peers, but other leaders within the company. Maybe other leaders across my industry as well as in technology and impress them with what I can do so that we leave a lasting impression on the peson's mind and when he or she is looking for a role, for a person for a role, they think of the girls who are here >> Right. >> Training these two days. This is just kind of the icing on the cake. >> So what are some of the tips and tricks for the people that didn't make the conference that you help them with? Are there some common errors that people make over and over and over that you're trying to tell them not to do? Are there a couple little guideposts that you can help them to get their pitch down? Is it the timing? Is it the focus? Is it the way it's structured? What are some of the things you share with them? >> Absolutely. So HBR did an article on elevator pitch for elevator pitch. (Jeff laughing) >> I've got to see that one. >> That means that that we leave lot of interactions on the table because when we are riding in elevator, riding in train or just sitting at a bar we don't take the opportunity to open up that conversation so we'll be focusing on that a little bit. And then also talking about, as you define your individual pitch think about your own passion, your own skill and where does it fit with some companies' or some projects' need? At that intersection lies the sweet spot for that person and how they hone and how they really practice it and have it handy and available to say it when the time comes, right? So that's the main kind of gist of the workshop. >> Well, and it's an interesting concept, too, because we go to a lot of conferences and one of the great values of conferences if you're exhibiting is you get to practice your pitch with a whole bunch of people over a really short period of time and hone it so it's an interesting concept to take advantage of those opportunities maybe if they're not even great ones but just to get the reps in, just to see what resonates, what do people listen to, what do they grab? >> Right, so they will do a practice. >> Right, right. >> Think about what their skill, what they're passion about, what does the place where they want to go need and see the intersection. And maybe the places they're thinking of might not fit their passion and skill but they're just enamored with that place so it also kind of gives them some toolbox to think ahead of time around how to plan their careers. >> All right, well, important work and again, thank you for your sponsorship of the conference. It's really important and it's a great, great statement on McKesson. >> Thank you. >> All right. She's Rashmi. I'm Jeff. We are at Girls in Tech Catalyst 2018, downtown San Francisco. Thanks for watching. >> Thank you. (music)

>> From San Francisco, it's theCube, covering Girls in Tech Catalyst Conference. Brought to you by Girls in Tech. >> Hey, welcome back, everybody. Jeff Frick here with theCUBE. We're in downtown San Francisco at Bespoke. It's at the top of the Westfield Mall. Come on by sometime if you're doin' some shoppin', but we're here at Girls in Tech Catalyst. Really cool convention. We were in Phoenix a couple years ago, about 700 women, girls, some students that came in, and a few men as well. Really talking about great inspirational stories. Unbelievable lineup of leaders telling their stories, how they got to where they were, and sharing the information. Now we're excited to have our first guest. She's Patty McCord. She's an author of this great book, Powerful, and she used to be the head of HR, or chief, >> Talent officer. >> Talent officer at Netflix. Patty, great to see you. >> Nice to meet you, too. >> Absolutely. >> Yay. >> So you're going to be speaking in a little bit, so what is your topic on today? >> The future of work, but mostly I'm going to talk about my experience with work over the last 30 years, and that the future of work is right now. We just don't operate that way. >> So, Patty, what do people get right about culture, what do they get wrong about culture? >> What they get wrong about it is they think it's a document. They think if you write it down, you're done, and what they get wrong about it is they don't walk the walk, right? I mean, I know that's simple and cliched, but I can't tell you how many startup CEOs I meet that say, I want to be this, and I want to this. I want to be efficient, right? I want to be straightforward. Well, is there information that you hide from employees, and do you show up to meetings on time? Uuh, right? And it's also about the stories that you tell, what becomes legend, and people love those positive legend stories, and they forget that when you screw up, we'll tell that story for 10 years, right? And the third thing, I think, is people get nostalgic, and they think they can keep it, especially in little companies. Let's keep the culture the way it is, and you cannot do that if you are successful. >> It's so bizarre that people don't get the kind of do what I say, versus do what I do. I mean, this is 101, and it's such a slap in the face when a leader says one thing, and then immediately does something different. >> And you wonder, how did they end up to be this way, when their saying is break things, right? >> Well, failing up is a whole different conversation that we'll save for another day. >> But let's take failing up, right? I talked to a CEO who told me I give everybody who makes a mistake a bottle of champagne to celebrate failure. I'm like, well that's stupid. (both laugh) But it only matters if you fail up if you learn something from it, and that's the demonstrable stories that you tell, that become part of your culture, rather than you get rewarded with champagne if you screw up. >> And then the other thing we were talking about before we turned the camera on are some of these just kind of arcane, old processes that people just put 'em in it, is it-- >> Well, let's start with the fundamentals. I'm going to hire you, and you'll have a career for the rest of your life in our company. Big fat lie, has been for decades, and we still tell it, right? Second one-- >> God, people still tell that story? >> They still do tell that story. >> I've been in Silicon Valley too long. >> Yeah, me too, but I mean, I travel all over the world now, and I hear that story all the time. The second one, which I'll talk about in a minute, is we're family. You're not, right? It's not family, it's work. It's two different things. >> You pay me to come every day. >> That's right, so it's not just the processes that are archaic, like you and I talked about the annual performance review, which is we don't step back like we do with every part of the business and say, why did we do that? What's its purpose? Is it still effective, right? If it is a process to give people feedback so they'll improve their performance, you do it once a year? >> Right, like that's really going to make a big impact. >> Yeah, that's kind of dumb, and then I'm going to figure out how to pay you based on what you did or didn't do last year? And particularly for women, I mean particularly for women, the compensation systems that we have, equal pay, those are issues that they're just writing checks. How hard can this be to figure this stuff out, and when you do it, it's actually not that much money. So I'm advocating, I'm kind of on my bully pulpit here, saying people in my organizations, in HR, we need to fix the stuff that's broken, own the fact that we broke it, and stop talking about it in a language nobody understands. >> Is there some just historical legal compliance issues and stuff that keeps things like the annual performance review going, or is just minutiae? >> There's sort of this inward naval gazing thing we do, where go, well, it's best practices, 'cause everybody does it. I mean, I talk to people who say, well it's a legal requirement. No, it's not, right? We don't even ask. (laughs) If there's a law, I coach people-- >> You haven't seen it yet, and you've had the C title forever. >> I coach people all the time. When your lawyer says you can't do it, you say why, and they say, well it's against the law, and you say can I see the statute? They're written in english, right? It's not Sanskrit, right? So look at it and say, well that's not what I read it to say. Well, if you didn't do it, you'd get sued. What's the most recent lawsuit? What was the settlement? How many people sue for this sort of thing? So there's a-- >> Such a business-minded and analytical approach to these questions, right, as opposed to just accepting the status quo. >> You just said you'd been in Silicon Valley all your life, me too, and I love innovation, and I love being inventive, and I don't want to be on the outside of all this fun. It's like, if somebody, like when I was at Netflix, if we could invent a new way of consuming entertainment, then why couldn't I invent a new way of working? >> Right, interesting. And so I wanted your take on another kind of hot trend right now, especially with the younger kids comin' up, is mission, and mission-driven companies, mission-driven opportunities, and I think, rightly or wrongly, and it's kind of like we're going to have you forever, it's a more and more important reason why people are choosing to go to certain companies, and it's so competitive here, say in the Bay Area specifically, whereas you're an employer, how should they look at this? How real is it? >> Well, first of all, before you blame them, right? Before we blame them, we have to realize that these are the children of burnt-out corporate citizens, right? And they've watched their parents toil, and come home burnt-out and upset and empty after careers in the companies that they belonged in that didn't give 'em back what they promised, right? So I think we all want mission. I don't think it's unusual for them. I think they're just asking for it. When we felt like we had to wait until later in our career to ask for stuff that mattered to us. And the other thing is, I think the companies who are building now are more capable of delivering that. And I don't think that by mission they're talking about world peace. They just want to know, how do I matter, right? And so, for me, that's teaching people how businesses work, and what the complexities are, and what the opportunities and the challenges are, and being part of that, right? So that's what they're asking for. They're not asking for every single day to go home and feel like they've changed the world, for curing, not that curing cancer's a bad thing, I think we should do that too, but we can still feel mission driven by just connecting with our customers and our products and the work that we do every day. >> All right, Patty, well I know you got to go get mic'd up for your big presentation, so thanks for takin' a few minutes of your time. >> Yeah, it was great fun. >> And I look forward to jumping into the book and getting into the day. >> Great, okay, thanks. >> She's Patty, I'm Jeff. We're at Girls in Tech, the Catalyst Conference at Bespoke in San Francisco. Thanks for watching. (laid-back electronic music)

>> From San Francisco, it's theCUBE covering Girls in Tech Catalyst Conference. Brought to you by Girls in Tech. >> Hey, welcome back everybody. Jeff Frick here with theCUBE. We're in downtown San Francisco at the Girls in Tech Catalyst event. About 700 people listening to two days of short presentations by senior leaders, mainly women senior leaders, and it's a really good event. We were here a couple years ago. Girls in Tech's a great organization, and so we're excited to have a board member with us right now. She's Mayumi Hiramatsu. She's a senior vice president, Cloud Ops, Engineering and Security for Infor. Great to see you. >> Great to see you, too. Thanks for inviting me. >> Absolutely. So let's just jump in. So you've spoken in prior years, you're not speaking this year, but from a corporate perspective as well as a personal perspective, what does this event mean to you? >> From a corporate perspective, from Girls in Tech's perspective, it's just amazing. Every year year it gets better. I did speak the last two years, and I'm humbled by the speakers this year. So I'm actually really enjoying it. (laughing) It's quite a caliber of-- It's kind of fun when you can just sit and relax and watch everybody else speak, right? >> Exactly. And quite a caliber the team's put together. So as a board member, I can't be prouder than what the team's pulled together. And it's so much buzz. Everybody's inspired, I see people taking notes. Folks are really taking this to heart in terms of takeaways, practical tips, and getting energized. So I think it's great. From a personal perspective, a little bit about myself: So I'm from originally Japan, I came here at 17. I didn't speak any English. I wasn't planning on getting in engineering, I have an economics degree. So you can imagine, I got into engineering and built my career here. It was not easy. For a foreigner, a female, Asian, a non-speaking English person. >> You checked all the wrong boxes, right? >> Yeah. I don't know why I choose to do something harder than it needs to be, and I don't even have an engineering degree. I have an economics degree. But I love technology. I've been doing this for 20 plus years, and I think it's a wonderful place for any woman like me to be able to give it a chance and actually have a wonderful career. I also love the fact that it sort of gives, it evens out everybody's potential. So with an economics degree, or from another country, I've been at Silicon Valley and have done great. So if I can do it, I know anybody else can do it. So for me, giving back to the community and making sure the next generation can successfully come through the technology ranks, or have their own company, is really exciting. So it's great to be on the board of Girls in Tech, and I can channel my energy through that way, and I think Girls in Tech is one of the largest, if not the largest world non-profit organization to help women with very practical, and great tips, as well as, not only these Catalyst conferences, but, my goodness, we do hackathons, we do pitch nights and give entrepreneurs a chance to actually shine, global classrooms where we can actually give a lot of teaching opportunities, and learning opportunities. So, super excited to be here. >> Then what about from the Infor perspective? Did you spearhead the Infor participation? Did Girls in Tech, Adriana come seek you out? How did you get directly involved, how did you sell it, and why does it matter to Infor? >> Yeah, so I've been a board member for year and a half, and not so coincidentally you can see Cisco's also there. I used to be a Cisco. Once I introduced Cisco and Infor to Girls in Tech, everybody was really excited. There's just so much win-win. So for Infor, it's great on a couple of things. You may know that Infor is a pretty large company. We're the third or fourth largest ERP. And we have really important business solutions software. For example, focus on verticals; for example, health care, manufacturing, retail, and as a company we're doing really well, but the other thing that really attracted me to Infor is our diversity programs. So we have two of them. One is WIN, Women Infor Network, and it's about essentially women network to help each other out and continue to grow our career, which is important. But the other program is EAP, which is Education Alliance Program. And I love the fact that we actually have a program, we have 80 plus universities that we tie in with, to bring in a diverse workforce, and teach them in the universities and bring them into the workforce, whether it's Infor or not, candidly. So it's STEM programs that gives diversity, whether it's gender, or background, or international location, or even age, right? Because we're bringing in college grads. I just love the programs that Infor has. >> So what is that? How does the relationship go between Infor and the universities? What's kind of the formal structure? >> Yeah, so there's a program called Education Alliance Program, EAP, very, very successful as I mentioned. 80+ universities that we work with already. And what we do is we essentially give these students in the university training program that teaches our software, and there are actually a couple of great things that come out of it. Of course, it's promoting STEM, and making sure that these kids have, young adults, have great technology STEM education coming out of college. It's also great for Infor because we also have people graduating with our technology skillset. So not only directly impacts us as they join our company, but also even if they don't join our company, we've given them a chance to get into technology and it's very, very successful. I'm very proud of it. So Infor is big on diversity in technology as you can see. And, of course, we're proud to be here this year as one of the sponsors. >> So I'll give you the last word as a board member to the audience. How can they get involved with Girls in Tech? How should they get involved? What are some of the ways that you would suggest for them to get their toe in the water if they're not familiar with the organization? >> Yeah, girlsintech.org is a great place to start. We have a wonderful website, of course, and we have various types of programs involved so depending on what it is. If you want to learn you can actually join some of the hackathons or global classrooms to get some practical skills. If you're a founder and you actually want to pitch your idea and get some funding, you can actually go to Pitch Night. There are different programs that we can leverage and I highly encourage everybody to join. >> Alright, well Mayumi thanks for taking a few minutes. Congrats on the sponsorship and all your good work on the board. >> Thank you very much. >> You're welcome. She's Mayumi, I'm Jeff. You're watching theCUBE. We're at Girls in Tech Catalyst 2018 in downtown San Francisco. Thanks for watching.

>> From San Francisco, it's the Cube, covering Girls In Tech Catalyst Conference. Brought to you by Girls in Tech. >> Hey welcome back everybody, Jeff Frick here with the Cube. We're at the Girls In Tech Catalyst event in downtown San Francisco about 700 people coming together, mainly women, two day single track event, where people are getting up and giving like 15-, 20-minute overviews of their story. Really sharing insights and how they got to where they were. Most of them had no idea that they were going to end up where they are now. So there's really a lot of great stories. And we're excited to be back for our second time. And our next guest we're excited to have is Lawdan Shojaee and she is the CEO of Axosoft, Lawdan welcome. >> Thank you, thanks for having me. >> So, what is Axosoft for people who aren't familiar? >> Axosoft builds tools for developers, mainly product management tool, a gate goi, a issue tracker. >> Okay. >> Yeah. >> And then, how long have you have you been involved with Girls In Tech? >> With Girls In Tech, about five years. We were the top sponsor and brought the Catalyst Conference to Phoenix when the first year they had it and this was back in I think five years ago. That's when I got involved with the board and loved the mission and couldn't stop. >> Awesome. >> I wanted to be involved in every way I could. >> Yeah, so we were there is Phoenix in 2016, I guess so a couple years ago. >> Okay, okay. >> So that's great. So it's such an important organization. What do you see some of the benefits, how are you guys really participating and helping take the advantages beyond the participation events? >> So I'll go just for today, right. And some of the things that I've listened to just this morning, just talking and re-familiarizing yourself with how important culture is. If you don't create a space for females in your corporation, they don't belong. So by creating spaces where they belong, then you automatically help them have voice. And the sessions today have all talked around that and I really am excited that I brought one of my employees with me here too. So she's definitely learning that and together we're going to take it back to the company, so. >> No I'm just curious how old is she in terms of... is she kind of young-- >> I think she's 27. >> and getting started in her career or (mumbles)? >> No, no she's 27 and she's a director of her departments. She the marketing director. >> That's great. Yeah, it's so important to have role models. And that's the other thing that keeps coming up over and over and over again. You know, they need to have the young girls. Young women need to have, >> Yeah. >> like looking people, women, >> Right. >> in women in senior executive positions, so they can envision themselves going there. >> Yes. >> So I know one of your passions is basically, obviously, your business is built around development and coding. >> It is. But having people have the knowledge, girls specifically, get some basic overview-- >> Yes. >> of what is coding, what is software development. So it's not this mysterious, this mysterious thing that's out there in the ether. >> Right. >> I know that's something that you've been putting a lot of time in. >> So here's how I view our education program right now. What we do with our kids is we put them in there, and we say go. And we educate them on how to become industrial workers. In the future, is everything software. All companies, if they're going to stick around, somehow are going to be software. From the person you get your sandwich from at a fast food place to everywhere else. So we're sending these kids to school. They're going and learning how to become industrial workers. We never introduce them to programming at all until they hit college. And then we say, pick a career path. How do they even know that they want to go into programming if during high school, or lower years, they haven't touched it. >> Right. >> And as we heard it, one of the other speakers yesterday say, she wanted to be an actor and singer and on a whim she took a computer science class, fell in love with it and she's the VP of Engineering at Birchbox now. So, on a whim. >> Even though she had lots of examples to look at on the music and entertainment side. >> Yeah she went into the other side. You know she just tried one class and from there, >> Right. >> you know, she fell in love. If you don't know what it is, if you're intimidated by it, then you don't try it and I think that waiting until college when it's career time, it's too late. You got to introduce kids to it earlier. >> So there's a lot of things are trying to help, that obviously, changing the public school system is not easy and we were talking offline about what Brenda Darden Wilkerson has done in Chicago with part of the school district there, getting basic CS, >> Yup. >> into the program. But it's really not easy. >> It's not. It's very grassroots, so my company's based out of Scottsdale, Arizona and our state is not doing very much as far as putting computer science into the schools. And, which means in 10 years, when I'm trying to look for developers, I'm not going to have enough. Not only am I not going to have enough developers period, I'm not going to have enough diverse developers, right, because, we're not even introducing it to girls at all. So a few years ago, actually in combination with Girls In Tech, I put a campaign together called, "It Was Never A Dress." With "It Was Never A Dress", we started a program where we took 15 to 16 year olds, sometimes 18 and we taught them programming. And we turned them into Ambassadors of anything STEAM. And we took 50, put 'em back into the public schools and they're now actually now creating their own clubs with sponsors in their own schools and we taught them skills like how to fundraise with, ya know, Go Fund Me-- >> Right, right. >> to come up with this and there's actually working. I mean it was very grassroots, it was very small. >> And how old were they, when you grabbed 'em? >> So our youngest was probably 12. >> Okay. And the way we found them was we went to the schools and we said, who's your smartest, ambitious, who do you think is motivated, who wants to do something different, send them to our conference. And we took 'em for two days. We taught 'em programming, basic programming. We taught 'em, wearable technology and we made sure that they were in different districts, sent them back into the school system. (Jeff laughs) >> That's great. >> Grassroots right? >> That's the way to see it. >> A little guerrilla-style. >> Right, right, right. Well, ya know, we see that more and more. Like I know LinkedIn does-- >> Yeah. >> weekend Hackathons all the time. So there is kind of the grassroot corporate effort from people who that are paying attention. >> Yup. >> And do the investment, but as you said the schools are lagging way behind on the CS (mumbles). >> They are, they are, but ya know, I feel like if each company took a small amount of time and created little grassroots movements, we could make a pretty large impact. We're not organized right, because you know, someone's doing it in San Francisco, someone's doing it in Arizona. If we kind of got together as just major corporations and said, let's do this, let's just... Because tomorrow we have to hire these people and if there's enough then we can't have the equality we want if we're not teaching girls early enough, then maybe we can make a difference. >> So I'd just love to get your perspective since you've been involved in Girls In Tech so long is trying to be one of the catalysts for that type of, you know, activity cross. >> Yup. >> Not only cross-state, but cross-country and around the world about the growth of this organization and how Adriana has taken it from... >> Yeah. >> I mean how big was it when you joined five years ago to where it is today? >> I mean the growth in numbers, I can't tell you what those are. But I can tell you the impact is huge. Every year I'm part of the Girls In Tech events and corporate boards. Seeing the impact and the feelings that it leaves for these woman is amazing. You now can talk internationally to woman and they know what Girls In Tech is, and they're familiar. And they're taking the Hackathons, they're taking the programs that this organization offers and they're learning and their getting jobs. And now I've been in it long enough where someone I met a couple years ago, who was just at a conference, kind of dabbling, took a course from Girls In Tech and is now in the career field, and they're kind of introducing Girls In Tech to others. So it's amazing. It's no longer grassroots. This is actually making a difference. >> Right, that's great. Well Lawdan, thanks for taking a few minutes. >> Thank you. >> And thanks for your longterm support of the organization, clearly you're not the only sponsor anymore and there's a lot of people-- >> Yes. >> that have jumped onto the bandwagon and that's all a good thing. >> Thank you. >> You're welcome. >> You have a great day. >> You too. (laughs) Alright, she's Lawdan and I'm Jeff. You're watching the Cube. We're Girls In Tech Catalyst 2018 in downtown San Francisco. Thanks for watching. (upbeat music)