(energetic music) >> Everyone, welcome back to theCUBE's coverage of WiDS 2023. This is the eighth annual Women in Data Science Conference. As you know, WiDS is not just a conference or an event, it's a movement. This is going to include over 100,000 people in the next year WiDS 2023 in 200-plus countries. It is such a powerful movement. If you've had a chance to be part of the Livestream or even be here in person with us at Stanford University, you know what I'm talking about. This is Lisa Martin. I have had the pleasure all day of working with two fantastic graduate students in Stanford's Data Journalism Master's Program. Hannah Freitag has been here. Tracy Zhang, ladies, it's been such a pleasure working with you today. >> Same wise. >> I want to ask you both what are, as we wrap the day, I'm so inspired, I feel like I could go build an airplane. >> Exactly. >> Probably can't. But WiDS is just the inspiration that comes from this event. When you walk in the front door, you can feel it. >> Mm-hmm. >> Tracy, talk a little bit about what some of the things are that you heard today that really inspired you. >> I think one of the keyword that's like in my mind right now is like finding a mentor. >> Yeah. >> And I think, like if I leave this conference if I leave the talks, the conversations with one thing is that I'm very positive that if I want to switch, say someday, from Journalism to being a Data Analyst, to being like in Data Science, I'm sure that there are great role models for me to look up to, and I'm sure there are like mentors who can guide me through the way. So, like that, I feel reassured for some reason. >> It's a good feeling, isn't it? What do you, Hannah, what about you? What's your takeaway so far of the day? >> Yeah, one of my key takeaways is that anything's possible. >> Mm-hmm. >> So, if you have your vision, you have the role model, someone you look up to, and even if you have like a different background, not in Data Science, Data Engineering, or Computer Science but you're like, "Wow, this is really inspiring. I would love to do that." As long as you love it, you're passionate about it, and you are willing to, you know, take this path even though it won't be easy. >> Yeah. >> Then you can achieve it, and as you said, Tracy, it's important to have mentors on the way there. >> Exactly. >> But as long as you speak up, you know, you raise your voice, you ask questions, and you're curious, you can make it. >> Yeah. >> And I think that's one of my key takeaways, and I was just so inspiring to hear like all these women speaking on stage, and also here in our conversations and learning about their, you know, career path and what they learned on their way. >> Yeah, you bring up curiosity, and I think that is such an important skill. >> Mm-hmm. >> You know, you could think of Data Science and think about all the hard skills that you need. >> Mm, like coding. >> But as some of our guests said today, you don't have to be a statistician or an engineer, or a developer to get into this. Data Science applies to every facet of every part of the world. >> Mm-hmm. >> Finances, marketing, retail, manufacturing, healthcare, you name it, Data Science has the power and the potential to unlock massive achievements. >> Exactly. >> It's like we're scratching the surface. >> Yeah. >> But that curiosity, I think, is a great skill to bring to anything that you do. >> Mm-hmm. >> And I think we... For the female leaders that we're on stage, and that we had a chance to talk to on theCUBE today, I think they all probably had that I think as a common denominator. >> Exactly. >> That curious mindset, and also something that I think as hard is the courage to raise your hand. I like this, I'm interested in this. I don't see anybody that looks like me. >> But that doesn't mean I shouldn't do it. >> Exactly. >> Exactly, in addition to the curiosity that all the women, you know, bring to the table is that, in addition to that, being optimistic, and even though we don't see gender equality or like general equality in companies yet, we make progress and we're optimistic about it, and we're not like negative and complaining the whole time. But you know, this positive attitude towards a trend that is going in the right direction, and even though there's still a lot to be done- >> Exactly. >> We're moving it that way. >> Right. >> Being optimistic about this. >> Yeah, exactly, like even if it means that it's hard. Even if it means you need to be your own role model it's still like worth a try. And I think they, like all of the great women speakers, all the female leaders, they all have that in them, like they have the courage to like raise their hand and be like, "I want to do this, and I'm going to make it." And they're role models right now, so- >> Absolutely, they have drive. >> They do. >> Right. They have that ambition to take something that's challenging and complicated, and help abstract end users from that. Like we were talking to Intuit. I use Intuit in my small business for financial management, and she was talking about how they can from a machine learning standpoint, pull all this data off of documents that you upload and make that, abstract that, all that complexity from the end user, make something that's painful taxes. >> Mm-hmm. >> Maybe slightly less painful. It's still painful when you have to go, "Do I have to write you a check again?" >> Yeah. (laughs) >> Okay. >> But talking about just all the different applications of Data Science in the world, I found that to be very inspiring and really eye-opening. >> Definitely. >> I hadn't thought about, you know, we talk about climate change all the time, especially here in California, but I never thought about Data Science as a facilitator of the experts being able to make sense of what's going on historically and in real-time, or the application of Data Science in police violence. We see far too many cases of police violence on the news. It's an epidemic that's a horrible problem. Data Science can be applied to that to help us learn from that, and hopefully, start moving the needle in the right direction. >> Absolutely. >> Exactly. >> And especially like one sentence from Guitry from the very beginnings I still have in my mind is then when she said that arguments, no, that data beats arguments. >> Yes. >> In a conversation that if you be like, okay, I have this data set and it can actually show you this or that, it's much more powerful than just like being, okay, this is my position or opinion on this. And I think in a world where increasing like misinformation, and sometimes, censorship as we heard in one of the talks, it's so important to have like data, reliable data, but also acknowledge, and we talked about it with one of our interviewees that there's spices in data and we also need to be aware of this, and how to, you know, move this forward and use Data Science for social good. >> Mm-hmm. >> Yeah, for social good. >> Yeah, definitely, I think they like data, and the question about, or like the problem-solving part about like the social issues, or like some just questions, they definitely go hand-in-hand. Like either of them standing alone won't be anything that's going to be having an impact, but combining them together, you have a data set that illustrate a point or like solves the problem. I think, yeah, that's definitely like where Data Set Science is headed to, and I'm glad to see all these great women like making their impact and combining those two aspects together. >> It was interesting in the keynote this morning. We were all there when Margot Gerritsen who's one of the founders of WiDS, and Margot's been on the program before and she's a huge supporter of what we do and vice versa. She asked the non-women in the room, "Those who don't identify as women, stand up," and there was a handful of men, and she said, "That's what it's like to be a female in technology." >> Oh, my God. >> And I thought that vision give me goosebumps. >> Powerful. (laughs) >> Very powerful. But she's right, and one of the things I think that thematically another common denominator that I think we heard, I want to get your opinions as well from our conversations today, is the importance of community. >> Mm-hmm. >> You know, I was mentioning this stuff from AnitaB.org that showed that in 2022, the percentage of females and technical roles is 27.6%. It's a little bit of an increase. It's been hovering around 25% for a while. But one of the things that's still a problem is attrition. It doubled last year. >> Right. >> And I was asking some of the guests, and we've all done that today, "How would you advise companies to start moving the needle down on attrition?" >> Mm-hmm. >> And I think the common theme was network, community. >> Exactly. >> It takes a village like this. >> Mm-hmm. >> So you can see what you can be to help start moving that needle and that's, I think, what underscores the value of what WiDS delivers, and what we're able to showcase on theCUBE. >> Yeah, absolutely. >> I think it's very important to like if you're like a woman in tech to be able to know that there's someone for you, that there's a whole community you can rely on, and that like you are, you have the same mindset, you're working towards the same goal. And it's just reassuring and like it feels very nice and warm to have all these women for you. >> Lisa: It's definitely a warm fuzzy, isn't it? >> Yeah, and both the community within the workplace but also outside, like a network of family and friends who support you to- >> Yes. >> To pursue your career goals. I think that was also a common theme we heard that it's, yeah, necessary to both have, you know your community within your company or organization you're working but also outside. >> Definitely, I think that's also like how, why, the reason why we feel like this in like at WiDS, like I think we all feel very positive right now. So, yeah, I think that's like the power of the connection and the community, yeah. >> And the nice thing is this is like I said, WiDS is a movement. >> Yes. >> This is global. >> Mm-hmm. >> We've had some WiDS ambassadors on the program who started WiDS and Tel Aviv, for example, in their small communities. Or in Singapore and Mumbai that are bringing it here and becoming more of a visible part of the community. >> Tracy: Right. >> I loved seeing all the young faces when we walked in the keynote this morning. You know, we come here from a journalistic perspective. You guys are Journalism students. But seeing all the potential in the faces in that room just seeing, and hearing stories, and starting to make tangible connections between Facebook and data, and the end user and the perspectives, and the privacy and the responsibility of AI is all... They're all positive messages that need to be reinforced, and we need to have more platforms like this to be able to not just raise awareness, but sustain it. >> Exactly. >> Right. It's about the long-term, it's about how do we dial down that attrition, what can we do? What can we do? How can we help? >> Mm-hmm. >> Both awareness, but also giving women like a place where they can connect, you know, also outside of conferences. Okay, how do we make this like a long-term thing? So, I think WiDS is a great way to, you know, encourage this connectivity and these women teaming up. >> Yeah, (chuckles) girls help girls. >> Yeah. (laughs) >> It's true. There's a lot of organizations out there, girls who Code, Girls Inc., et cetera, that are all aimed at helping women kind of find their, I think, find their voice. >> Exactly. >> And find that curiosity. >> Yeah. Unlock that somewhere back there. Get some courage- >> Mm-hmm. >> To raise your hand and say, "I think I want to do this," or "I have a question. You explained something and I didn't understand it." Like, that's the advice I would always give to my younger self is never be afraid to raise your hand in a meeting. >> Mm-hmm. >> I guarantee you half the people weren't listening or, and the other half may not have understood what was being talked about. >> Exactly. >> So, raise your hand, there goes Margot Gerritsen, the founder of WiDS, hey, Margot. >> Hi. >> Keep alumni as you know, raise your hand, ask the question, there's no question that's stupid. >> Mm-hmm. >> And I promise you, if you just take that chance once it will open up so many doors, you won't even know which door to go in because there's so many that are opening. >> And if you have a question, there's at least one more person in the room who has the exact same question. >> Exact same question. >> Yeah, we'll definitely keep that in mind as students- >> Well, I'm curious how Data Journalism, what you heard today, Tracy, we'll start with you, and then, Hannah, to you. >> Mm-hmm. How has it influenced how you approach data-driven, and storytelling? Has it inspired you? I imagine it has, or has it given you any new ideas for, as you round out your Master's Program in the next few months? >> I think like one keyword that I found really helpful from like all the conversations today, was problem-solving. >> Yeah. >> Because I think, like we talked a lot about in our program about how to put a face on data sets. How to put a face, put a name on a story that's like coming from like big data, a lot of numbers but you need to like narrow it down to like one person or one anecdote that represents a bigger problem. And I think essentially that's problem-solving. That's like there is a community, there is like say maybe even just one person who has, well, some problem about something, and then we're using data. We're, by giving them a voice, by portraying them in news and like representing them in the media, we're solving this problem somehow. We're at least trying to solve this problem, trying to make some impact. And I think that's like what Data Science is about, is problem-solving, and, yeah, I think I heard a lot from today's conversation, also today's speakers. So, yeah, I think that's like something we should also think about as Journalists when we do pitches or like what kind of problem are we solving? >> I love that. >> Or like kind of what community are we trying to make an impact in? >> Yes. >> Absolutely. Yeah, I think one of the main learnings for me that I want to apply like to my career in Data Journalism is that I don't shy away from complexity because like Data Science is oftentimes very complex. >> Complex. >> And also data, you're using for your stories is complex. >> Mm-hmm. >> So, how can we, on the one hand, reduce complexity in a way that we make it accessible for broader audience? 'Cause, we don't want to be this like tech bubble talking in data jargon, we want to, you know, make it accessible for a broader audience. >> Yeah. >> I think that's like my purpose as a Data Journalist. But at the same time, don't reduce complexity when it's needed, you know, and be open to dive into new topics, and data sets and circling back to this of like raising your hand and asking questions if you don't understand like a certain part. >> Yeah. >> So, that's definitely a main learning from this conference. >> Definitely. >> That like, people are willing to talk to you and explain complex topics, and this will definitely facilitate your work as a Data Journalist. >> Mm-hmm. >> So, that inspired me. >> Well, I can't wait to see where you guys go from here. I've loved co-hosting with you today, thank you. >> Thank you. >> For joining me at our conference. >> Wasn't it fun? >> Thank you. >> It's a great event. It's, we, I think we've all been very inspired and I'm going to leave here probably floating above the ground a few inches, high on the inspiration of what this community can deliver, isn't that great? >> It feels great, I don't know, I just feel great. >> Me too. (laughs) >> So much good energy, positive energy, we love it. >> Yeah, so we want to thank all the organizers of WiDS, Judy Logan, Margot Gerritsen in particular. We also want to thank John Furrier who is here. And if you know Johnny, know he gets FOMO when he is not hosting. But John and Dave Vellante are such great supporters of women in technology, women in technical roles. We wouldn't be here without them. So, shout out to my bosses. Thank you for giving me the keys to theCube at this event. I know it's painful sometimes, but we hope that we brought you great stories all day. We hope we inspired you with the females and the one male that we had on the program today in terms of raise your hand, ask a question, be curious, don't be afraid to pursue what you're interested in. That's my soapbox moment for now. So, for my co-host, I'm Lisa Martin, we want to thank you so much for watching our program today. You can watch all of this on-demand on thecube.net. You'll find write-ups on siliconeangle.com, and, of course, YouTube. Thanks, everyone, stay safe and we'll see you next time. (energetic music)

(upbeat music) >> Hey, everyone. Welcome back to theCUBE's day one coverage of Cloud Native SecurityCon 2023. This has been a great conversation that we've been able to be a part of today. Lisa Martin with John Furrier and Dave Vellante. Dave and John, I want to get your take on the conversations that we had today, starting with the keynote that we were able to see. What are your thoughts? We talked a lot about technology. We also talked a lot about people and culture. John, starting with you, what's the story here with this inaugural event? >> Well, first of all, there's two major threads. One is the breakout of a new event from CloudNativeCon/KubeCon, which is a very successful community and events that they do international and in North America. And that's not stopping. So that's going to be continuing to go great. This event is a breakout with an extreme focus on security and all things security around that ecosystem. And with extensions into the Linux Foundation. We heard Brian Behlendorf was on there from the Linux Foundation. So he was involved in Hyperledger. So not just Cloud Native, all things containers, Kubernetes, all things Linux Foundation as an open source. So, little bit more of a focus. So I like that piece of it. The other big thread on this story is what Dave and Yves were talking about on our panel we had earlier, which was the business model of security is real and that is absolutely happening. It's impacting business today. So you got this, let's build as fast as possible, let's retool, let's replatform, refactor and then the reality of the business imperative. To me, those are the two big high-order bits that are going on and that's the reality of this current situation. >> Dave, what are your top takeaways from today's day one inaugural coverage? >> Yeah, I would add a third leg of the stool to what John said and that's what we were talking about several times today about the security is a do-over. The Pat Gelsinger quote, from what was that, John, 2011, 2012? And that's right around the time that the cloud was hitting this steep part of the S-curve and do-over really has meant in looking back, leveraging cloud native tooling, and cloud native technologies, which are different than traditional security approaches because it has to take into account the unique characteristics of the cloud whether that's dynamic resource allocation, unlimited resources, microservices, containers. And while that has helped solve some problems it also brings new challenges. All these cloud native tools, securing this decentralized infrastructure that people are dealing with and really trying to relearn the security culture. And that's kind of where we are today. >> I think the other thing too that I had Dave is that was we get other guests on with a diverse opinion around foundational models with AI and machine learning. You're going to see a lot more things come in to accelerate the scale and automation piece of it. It is one thing that CloudNativeCon and KubeCon has shown us what the growth of cloud computing is is that containers Kubernetes and these new services are powering scale. And scale you're going to need to have automation and machine learning and AI will be a big part of that. So you start to see the new formation of stacks emerging. So foundational stacks is the machine learning and data apps are coming out. It's going to start to see more apps coming. So I think there's going to be so many new applications and services are going to emerge, and if you don't get your act together on the infrastructure side those apps will not be fully baked. >> And obviously that's a huge risk. Sorry, Dave, go ahead. >> No, that's okay. So there has to be hardware somewhere. You can't get away with no hardware. But increasingly the security architecture like everything else is, is software-defined and makes it a lot more flexible. And to the extent that practitioners and organizations can consolidate this myriad of tools that they have, that means they're going to have less trouble learning new skills, they're going to be able to spend more time focused and become more proficient on the tooling that is being applied. And you're seeing the same thing on the vendor side. You're seeing some of these large vendors, Palo Alto, certainly CrowdStrike and fundamental to their strategy is to pick off more and more and more of these areas in security and begin to consolidate them. And right now, that's a big theme amongst organizations. We know from the survey data that consolidating redundant vendors is the number one cost saving priority today. Along with, at a distant second, optimizing cloud costs, but consolidating redundant vendors there's nowhere where that's more prominent than in security. >> Dave, talk a little bit about that, you mentioned the practitioners and obviously this event bottoms up focused on the practitioners. It seems like they're really in the driver's seat now. With this being the inaugural Cloud Native SecurityCon, first time it's been pulled out of an elevated out of KubeCon as a focus, do you think this is about time that the practitioners are in the driver's seat? >> Well, they're certainly, I mean, we hear about all the tech layoffs. You're not laying off your top security pros and if you are, they're getting picked up very quickly. So I think from that standpoint, anybody who has deep security expertise is in the driver's seat. The problem is that driver's seat is pretty hairy and you got to have the stomach for it. I mean, these are technical heroes, if you will, on the front lines, literally saving the world from criminals and nation-states. And so yes, I think Lisa they have been in the driver's seat for a while, but it it takes a unique person to drive at those speeds. >> I mean, the thing too is that the cloud native world that we are living in comes from cloud computing. And if you look at this, what is a practitioner? There's multiple stakeholders that are being impacted and are vulnerable in the security front at many levels. You have application developers, you got IT market, you got security, infrastructure, and network and whatever. So all that old to new is happening. So if you look at IT, that market is massive. That's still not transformed yet to cloud. So you have companies out there literally fully exposed to ransomware. IT teams that are having practices that are antiquated and outdated. So security patching, I mean the blocking and tackling of the old securities, it's hard to even support that old environment. So in this transition from IT to cloud is changing everything. And so practitioners are impacted from the devs and the ones that get there faster and adopt the ways to make their business better, whether you call it modern technology and architectures, will be alive and hopefully thriving. So that's the challenge. And I think this security focus hits at the heart of the reality of business because like I said, they're under threats. >> I wanted to pick up too on, I thought Brian Behlendorf, he did a forward looking what could become the next problem that we really haven't addressed. He talked about generative AI, automating spearphishing and he flat out said the (indistinct) is not fixed. And so identity access management, again, a lot of different toolings. There's Microsoft, there's Okta, there's dozens of companies with different identity platforms that practitioners have to deal with. And then what he called free riders. So these are folks that go into the repos. They're open source repos, and they find vulnerabilities that developers aren't hopping on quickly. It's like, you remember Patch Tuesday. We still have Patch Tuesday. That meant Hacker Wednesday. It's kind of the same theme there going into these repos and finding areas where the practitioners, the developers aren't responding quickly enough. They just don't necessarily have the resources. And then regulations, public policy being out of alignment with what's really needed, saying, "Oh, you can't ship that fix outside of Germany." Or I'm just making this up, but outside of this region because of a law. And you could be as a developer personally liable for it. So again, while these practitioners are in the driver's seat, it's a hairy place to be. >> Dave, we didn't get the word supercloud in much on this event, did we? >> Well, I'm glad you brought that up because I think security is the big single, biggest challenge for supercloud, securing the supercloud with all the diversity of tooling across clouds and I think you brought something up in the first supercloud, John. You said, "Look, ultimately the cloud, the hyperscalers have to lean in. They are going to be the enablers of supercloud. They already are from an infrastructure standpoint, but they can solve this problem by working together. And I think there needs to be more industry collaboration. >> And I think the point there is that with security the trend will be, in my opinion, you'll see security being reborn in the cloud, around zero trust as structure, and move from an on-premise paradigm to fully cloud native. And you're seeing that in the network side, Dave, where people are going to each cloud and building stacks inside the clouds, hyperscaler clouds that are completely compatible end-to-end with on-premises. Not trying to force the cloud to be working with on-prem. They're completely refactoring as cloud native first. And again, that's developer first, that's data first, that's security first. So to me that's the tell sign. To me is if when you see that, that's good. >> And Lisa, I think the cultural conversation that you've brought into these discussions is super important because I've said many times, bad user behavior is going to trump good security every time. So that idea that the entire organization is responsible for security. You hear that all the time. Well, what does that mean? It doesn't mean I have to be a security expert, it just means I have to be smart. How many people actually use a VPN? >> So I think one of the things that I'm seeing with the cultural change is face-to-face problem solving is one, having remote teams is another. The skillset is big. And I think the culture of having these teams, Dave mentioned something about intramural sports, having the best people on the teams, from putting captains on the jersey of security folks is going to happen. I think you're going to see a lot more of that going on because there's so many areas to work on. You're going to start to see security embedded in all processes. >> Well, it needs to be and that level of shared responsibility is not trivial. That's across the organization. But they're also begs the question of the people problem. People are one of the biggest challenges with respect to security. Everyone has to be on board with this. It has to be coming from the top down, but also the bottom up at the same time. It's challenging to coordinate. >> Well, the training thing I think is going to solve itself in good time. And I think in the fullness of time, if I had to predict, you're going to see managed services being a big driver on the front end, and then as companies realize where their IP will be you'll see those managed service either be a core competency of their business and then still leverage. So I'm a big believer in managed services. So you're seeing Kubernetes, for instance, a lot of managed services. You'll start to see more, get the ball going, get that rolling, then build. So Dave mentioned bottoms up, middle out, that's how transformation happens. So I think managed services will win from here, but ultimately the business model stuff is so critical. >> I'm glad you brought up managed services and I want to add to that managed security service providers, because I saw a stat last year, 50% of organizations in the US don't even have a security operations team. So managed security service providers MSSPs are going to fill the gap, especially for small and midsize companies and for those larger companies that just need to augment and compliment their existing staff. And so those practitioners that we've been talking about, those really hardcore pros, they're going to go into these companies, some large, the big four, all have them. Smaller companies like Arctic Wolf are going to, I think, really play a key role in this decade. >> I want to get your opinion Dave on what you're hoping to see from this event as we've talked about the first inaugural standalone big focus here on security as a standalone. Obviously, it's a huge challenge. What are you hoping for this event to get groundswell from the community? What are you hoping to hear and see as we wrap up day one and go into day two? >> I always say events like this they're about educating, aspiring to action. And so the practitioners that are at this event I think, I used to say they're the technical heroes. So we know there's going to be another Log4j or a another SolarWinds. It's coming. And my hope is that when that happens, it's not an if, it's a when, that the industry, these practitioners are able to respond in a way that's safe and fast and agile and they're able to keep us protected, number one and number two, that they can actually figure out what happened in the long tail of still trying to clean it up is compressed. That's my hope or maybe it's a dream. >> I think day two tomorrow you're going to hear more supply chain, security. You're going to start to see them focus on sessions that target areas if within the CNCF KubeCon + CloudNativeCon area that need support around containers, clusters, around Kubernetes cluster. You're going to start to see them laser focus on cleaning up the house, if you will, if you can call it cleaning up or fixing what needs to get fixed or solved what needs to get solved on the cloud native front. That's going to be urgent. And again, supply chain software as Dave mentioned, free riders too, just using open source. So I think you'll see open source continue to grow, but there'll be an emphasis on verification and certification. And Docker has done a great job with that. You've seen what they've done with their business model over hundreds of millions of dollars in revenue from a pivot. Catch a few years earlier because they verify. So I think we're going to be in this verification blue check mark of code era, of code and software. Super important bill of materials. They call SBOMs, software bill of materials. People want to know what's in their software and that's going to be, again, another opportunity for machine learning and other things. So I'm optimistic that this is going to be a good focus. >> Good. I like that. I think that's one of the things thematically that we've heard today is optimism about what this community can generate in terms of today's point. The next Log4j is coming. We know it's not if, it's when, and all organizations need to be ready to Dave's point to act quickly with agility to dial down and not become the next headline. Nobody wants to be that. Guys, it's been fun working with you on this day one event. Looking forward to day two. Lisa Martin for Dave Vellante and John Furrier. You're watching theCUBE's day one coverage of Cloud Native SecurityCon '23. We'll see you tomorrow. (upbeat music)

>>Hello, everyone. Welcome to the cubes presentation of the 80, but startup showcases MarTech is the focus. And this is all about the emerging cloud scale customer experience. This is season two, episode three of the ongoing series covering the exciting, fast growing startups from the cloud AWS ecosystem to talk about the future and what's available now, where are the actions? I'm your host John fur. Today. We joined by Cub alumni, Jerry Chen partner at Greylock ventures. Jerry. Great to see you. Thanks for coming on, >>John. Thanks for having me back. I appreciate you welcome there for season two. Uh, as a, as a guest star, >><laugh>, you know, Hey, you know, season two, it's not a one and done it's continued coverage. We, we got the episodic, uh, cube flicks model going >>Here. Well, you know, congratulations, the, the coverage on this ecosystem around AWS has been impressive, right? I think you and I have talked a long time about AWS and the ecosystem building. It just continues to grow. And so the coverage you did last season, all the events of this season is, is pretty amazing from the data security to now marketing. So it's, it's great to >>Watch. And 12 years now, the cube been running. I remember 2013, when we first met you in the cube, we just left VMware just getting into the venture business. And we were just riffing the next 80. No one really kind of knew how big it would be. Um, but we were kinda riffing on. We kind of had a sense now it's happening. So now you start to see every vertical kind of explode with the right digital transformation and disruption where you see new incumbents. I mean, new Newton brands get replaced the incumbent old guard. And now in MarTech, it's ripe for, for disruption because web two has gone on to web 2.5, 3, 4, 5, um, cookies are going away. You've got more governance and privacy challenges. There's a slew of kind of ad tech baggage, but yet lots of new data opportunities. Jerry, this is a huge, uh, thing. What's your take on this whole MarTech cloud scale, uh, >>Market? I, I think, I think to your point, John, that first the trends are correct and the bad and the good or good old days, the battle days MarTech is really about your webpage. And then email right there. There's, there's the emails, the only channel and the webpage was only real estate and technology to care about fast forward, you know, 10 years you have webpages, mobile apps, VR experiences, car experiences, your, your, your Alexa home experiences. Let's not even get to web three web 18, whatever it is. Plus you got text messages, WhatsApp, messenger, email, still great, et cetera. So I think what we've seen is both, um, explosion and data, uh, explosion of channel. So sources of data have increases and the fruits of the data where you can reach your customers from text, email, phone calls, etcetera have exploded too. So the previous generation created big company responses, Equa, you know, that exact target that got acquired by Oracle or, or, um, Salesforce, and then companies like, um, you know, MailChimp that got acquired as well, but into it, you're seeing a new generation companies for this new stack. So I, I think it's exciting. >>Yeah. And you mentioned all those things about the different channels and stuff, but the key point is now the generation shifts going on, not just technical generation, uh, and platform and tools, it's the people they're younger. They don't do email. They have, you know, proton mail accounts, zillion Gmail accounts, just to get the freebie. Um, they're like, they're, they'll do subscriptions, but not a lot. So the generational piece on the human side is huge. Okay. And then you got the standards, bodies thrown away, things like cookies. Sure. So all this is makes it for a complicated, messy situation. Um, so out of this has to come a billion dollar startup in my mind, >>I, I think multiple billion dollars, but I think you're right in the sense that how we want engage with the company branch, either consumer brands or business brands, no one wants to pick a phone anymore. Right? Everybody wants to either chat or DM people on Twitter. So number one, the, the way we engage is different, both, um, where both, how like chat or phone, but where like mobile device, but also when it's the moment when we need to talk to a company or brand be it at the store, um, when I'm shopping in real life or in my car or at the airport, like we want to reach the brands, the brands wanna reach us at the point of decision, the point of support, the point of contact. And then you, you layer upon that the, the playing field, John of privacy security, right? All these data silos in the cloud, the, the, the, the game has changed and become even more complicated with the startup. So the startups are gonna win. Will do, you know, the collect, all the data, make us secure in private, but then reach your customers when and where they want and how they want it. >>So I gotta ask you, because you had a great podcast just this week, published and snowflake had their event going on the data cloud, there's a new kind of SAS platform vibe going on. You're starting to see it play out. Uh, and one of the things I, I noticed on your podcast with the president of Hashi Corp, who was on people should listen to that podcast. It's on gray matter, which is the Greylocks podcast, uh, plug for you guys. He mentioned he mentions the open source dynamic, right? Sure. And, and I like what he, things, he said, he said, software business has changed forever. It's my words. Now he said infrastructure, but I'm saying software in general, more broader infrastructure and software as a category is all open source. One game over no debate. Right. You agree? >>I, I think you said infrastructure specifically starts at open source, but I would say all open source is one more or less because open source is in every bit of software. Right? And so from your operating system to your car, to your mobile phone, open source, not necessarily as a business model or, or, or whatever, we can talk about that. But open source as a way to build software distribute, software consume software has one, right? It is everywhere. So regardless how you make money on it, how you build software, an open source community ha has >>One. Okay. So let's just agree. That's cool. I agree with that. Let's take it to the next level. I'm a company starting a company to sell to big companies who pay. I gotta have a proprietary advantage. There's gotta be a way. And there is, I know you've talked about it, but I have my opinion. There is needs to be a way to be proprietary in a way that allows for that growth, whether it's integration, it's not gonna be on software license or maybe support or new open source model. But how does startups in the MarTech this area in general, when they disrupt or change the category, they gotta get value creation going. What's your take on, on building. >>You can still build proprietary software on top of open source, right? So there's many companies out there, um, you know, in a company called rock set, they've heavily open source technology like Rock's DB under the hood, but they're running a cloud database. That's proprietary snowflake. You talk about them today. You know, it's not open source technology company, but they use open source software. I'm sure in the hoods, but then there's open source companies, data break. So let's not confus the two, you can still build proprietary software. There's just components of open source, wherever we go. So number one is you can still build proprietary IP. Number two, you can get proprietary data sources, right? So I think increasingly you're seeing companies fight. I call this systems intelligence, right, by getting proprietary data, to train your algorithms, to train your recommendations, to train your applications, you can still collect data, um, that other competitors don't have. >>And then it can use the data differently, right? The system of intelligence. And then when you apply the system intelligence to the end user, you can create value, right? And ultimately, especially marketing tech, the highest level, what we call the system of engagement, right? If, if the chat bot the mobile UI, the phone, the voice app, etcetera, if you own the system of engagement, be a slack, or be it, the operating system for a phone, you can also win. So still multiple levels to play John in multiple ways to build proprietary advantage. Um, just gotta own system record. Yeah. System intelligence, system engagement. Easy, right? Yeah. >>Oh, so easy. Well, the good news is the cloud scale and the CapEx funded there. I mean, look at Amazon, they've got a ton of open storage. You mentioned snowflake, but they're getting a proprietary value. P so I need to ask you MarTech in particular, that means it's a data business, which you, you pointed out and we agree. MarTech will be about the data of the workflows. How do you get those workflows what's changing and how these companies are gonna be building? What's your take on it? Because it's gonna be one of those things where it might be the innovation on a source of data, or how you handle two parties, ex handling encrypted data sets. I don't know. Maybe it's a special encryption tool, so we don't know what it is. What's your what's, what's your outlook on this area? >>I, I, I think that last point just said is super interesting, super genius. It's integration or multiple data sources. So I think either one, if it's a data business, do you have proprietary data? Um, one number two with the data you do have proprietary, not how do you enrich the data and do you enrich the data with, uh, a public data set or a party data set? So this could be cookies. It could be done in Brad street or zoom info information. How do you enrich the data? Number three, do you have machine learning models or some other IP that once you collected the data, enriched the data, you know, what do you do with the data? And then number four is once you have, um, you know, that model of the data, the customer or the business, what do you deal with it? Do you email, do you do a tax? >>Do you do a campaign? Do you upsell? Do you change the price dynamically in our customers? Do you serve a new content on your website? So I think that workflow to your point is you can start from the same place, what to do with the data in between and all the, on the out the side of this, this pipeline is where a MarTech company can have then. So like I said before, it was a website to an email go to website. You know, we have a cookie fill out a form. Yeah. I send you an email later. I think now you, you can't just do a website to email, it's a website plus mobile apps, plus, you know, in real world interaction to text message, chat, phone, call Twitter, a whatever, you know, it's >>Like, it's like, they're playing checkers in web two and you're talking 3d chess. <laugh>, I mean, there's a level, there's a huge gap between what's coming. And this is kind of interesting because now you mentioned, you know, uh, machine learning and data, and AI is gonna factor into all this. You mentioned, uh, you know, rock set. One of your portfolios has under the hood, you know, open source and then use proprietary data and cloud. Okay. That's a configuration, that's an architecture, right? So architecture will be important in terms of how companies posture in this market, cuz MarTech is ripe for innovation because it's based on these old technologies, but there's tons of workflows, but you gotta have the data. Right. And so if I have the best journey map from a client that goes to a website, but then they go and they do something in the organic or somewhere else. If I don't have that, what good is it? It's like a blind spot. >>Correct. So I think you're seeing folks with the data BS, snowflake or data bricks, or an Amazon that S three say, Hey, come to my data cloud. Right. Which, you know, Snowflake's advertising, Amazon will say the data cloud is S3 because all your data exists there anyway. So you just, you know, live on S3 data. Bricks will say, S3 is great, but only use Amazon tools use data bricks. Right. And then, but on top of that, but then you had our SaaS companies like Oracle, Salesforce, whoever, and say, you know, use our qua Marketo, exact target, you know, application as a system record. And so I think you're gonna have a battle between, do I just work my data in S3 or where my data exists or gonna work my data, some other application, like a Marketo Ella cloud Z target, um, or, you know, it could be a Twilio segment, right. Was combination. So you'll have this battle between these, these, these giants in the cloud, easy, the castles, right. Versus, uh, the, the, the, the contenders or the, or the challengers as we call >>'em. Well, great. Always chat with the other. We always talk about castles in the cloud, which is your work that you guys put out, just an update on. So check out greylock.com. They have castles on the cloud, which is a great thesis on and a map by the way ecosystem. So you guys do a really good job props to Jerry and the team over at Greylock. Um, okay. Now I gotta ask kind of like the VC private equity sure. Market question, you know, evaluations. Uh, first of all, I think it's a great time to do a startup. So it's a good time to be in the VC business. I think the next two years, you're gonna find some nice gems, but also you gotta have that cleansing period. You got a lot of overvaluation. So what happened with the markets? So there's gonna be a lot of M and a. So the question is what are some of the things that you see as challenges for product teams in particular that might have that killer answer in MarTech, or might not have the runway if there's no cash, um, how do people partner in this modern era, cuz scale's a big deal, right? Mm-hmm <affirmative> you can measure everything. So you get the combination of a, a new kind of M and a market coming, a potential growth market for the right solution. Again, value's gotta be be there. What's your take on this market? >>I, I, I think you're right. Either you need runway, so cash to make it through, through this next, you know, two, three years, whatever you think the market Turmo is or two, you need scale, right? So if you're at a company of scale and you have enough data, you can probably succeed on your own. If not, if you're kind of in between or early to your point, either one focus, a narrower wedge, John, just like we say, just reduce the surface area. And next two years focus on solving one problem. Very, very well, or number two in this MarTech space, especially there's a lot of partnership and integration opportunities to create a complete solution together, to compete against kind of the incumbents. Right? So I think they're folks with the data, they're folks doing data, privacy, security, they're post focusing their workflow or marketing workflows. You're gonna see either one, um, some M and a, but I definitely can see a lot of Coopers in partnership. And so in the past, maybe you would say, I'm just raise another a hundred million dollars and do what you're doing today. You might say, look, instead of raising more money let's partner together or, or merge or find a solution. So I think people are gonna get creative. Yeah. Like said scarcity often is good. Yeah. I think forces a lot more focus and a lot more creativity. >>Yeah. That's a great point. I'm glad you brought that up up. Cause I didn't think you were gonna go there. I was gonna ask that biz dev activity is going to be really fundamental because runway combined with the fact that, Hey, you know, if you know, get real or you're gonna go under is a real issue. So now people become friends. They're like, okay, if we partner, um, it's clearly a good way to go if you can get there. So what advice would you give companies? Um, even most experienced, uh, founders and operators. This is a different market, right? It's a different kind of velocity, obviously architectural data. You mentioned some of those key things. What's the posture to partner. What's your advice? What's the combat man manual to kind of compete in this new biz dev world where some it's a make or break time, either get the funding, get the customers, which is how you get funding or you get a biz dev deal where you combine forces, uh, go to market together or not. What's your advice? >>I, I think that the combat manual is either you're partnering for one or two things, either one technology or two customers or sometimes both. So it would say which partnerships, youre doing for technology EG solution completers. Like you have, you know, this puzzle piece, I have this puzzle piece data and data privacy and let's work together. Um, or number two is like, who can help you with customers? And that's either a, I, they can be channel for you or, or vice versa or can share customers and you can actually go to market together and find customers jointly. So ideally you're partner for one, if not the other, sometimes both. And just figure out where in your life cycle do you need? Um, friends. >>Yeah. Great. My final question, Jerry, first of all, thanks for coming on and sharing your in insight as usual. Always. Awesome final question for the folks watching that are gonna be partnering and buying product and services from these startups. Um, there's a select few great ones here and obviously every other episode as well, and you've got a bunch you're investing in this, it's actually a good market for the ones that are lean companies that are lean and mean have value. And the cloud scale does provide that. So a lot of companies are getting it right, they're gonna break through. So they're clearly gonna be getting customers the buyer side, how should they be looking through the lens right now and looking at companies, what should they look for? Um, and they like to take chances with seeing that. So it's not so much, they gotta be vetted, but you know, how do they know the winners from the pretenders? >>You know, I, I think the customers are always smart. I think in the, in the, in the past in market market tech, especially they often had a budget to experiment with. I think you're looking now the customers, the buyer technologies are looking for a hard ROI, like a return on investment. And before think they might experiment more, but now they're saying, Hey, are you gonna help me save money or increase revenue or some hardcore metric that they care about? So I think, um, the startups that actually have a strong ROI, like save money or increased revenue and can like point empirically how they do that will, will, you know, rise to the top of, of the MarTech landscape. And customers will see that they're they're, the customers are smart, right? They're savvy buyers. They, they, they, they, they can smell good from bad and they're gonna see the strong >>ROI. Yeah. And the other thing too, I like to point out, I'd love to get your reaction real quick is a lot of the companies have DNA, any open source or they have some community track record where communities now, part of the vetting. I mean, are they real good people? >>Yeah. I, I think open stores, like you said, in the community in general, like especially all these communities that move on slack or discord or something else. Right. I think for sure, just going through all those forums, slack communities or discord communities, you can see what's a good product versus next versus bad. Don't go to like the other sites. These communities would tell you who's working. >>Well, we got a discord channel on the cube now had 14,000 members. Now it's down to six, losing people left and right. We need a moderator, um, to get on. If you know anyone on discord, anyone watching wants to volunteer to be the cube discord, moderator. Uh, we could use some help there. Love discord. Uh, Jerry. Great to see you. Thanks for coming on. What's new at Greylock. What's some of the things happening. Give a quick plug for the firm. When you guys working on, I know there's been some cool things happening, new investments, people moving. >>Yeah. Look we're we're Greylock partners, seed series a firm. I focus at enterprise software. I have a team with me that also does consumer investing as well as crypto investing like all firms. So, but we're we're seed series a occasionally later stage growth. So if you're interested, uh, FA me@jkontwitterorjgreylock.com. Thank you, John. >>Great stuff, Jerry. Thanks for coming on. This is the Cube's presentation of the, a startup showcase. MarTech is the series this time, emerging cloud scale customer experience where the integration and the data matters. This is season two, episode three of the ongoing series covering the hottest cloud startups from the ADWS ecosystem. Um, John farrier, thanks for watching.

(upbeat music) >> Hey everyone, welcome back to theCUBE's three day coverage of Snowflake Summit 22. Lisa Martin here with Dave Vellante. We have been here as I said for three days. Dave, we have had an amazing three days. The energy, the momentum, the number of people still here speaks volumes for- >> Yeah, I was just saying, you look back, theCUBE, when it started, early days was a big part of the Hadoop ecosystem. You know Cloudera kind of got it started, the whole big data movement, it was awesome energy, and that whole ecosystem has been, I think, just hoovered into the Snowflake ecosystem. They've taken over as the data company, the data cloud, I mean, that was Cloudera, it could have been Cloudera, and now they didn't, they missed it, it was a variety of factors, but Snowflake has nailed it. And now it's theirs to lose. Benoit talked about that on our previous segment, how he knew that technically Hadoop was too complex, and was going to fail, and they didn't know it was going to do this. They were going to turn their company into what we see here. But the event itself, Lisa, is almost 10,000 people, the right people, people are doing business, we've had a number of people tell us that they're booking deals. That's why people come to face-to-face shows, right? That's the criticism of virtual. It takes too long to close business. Salespeople want to be belly-to-belly. And this is a belly-to belly-show. >> It absolutely is. When you and I were trying to get into the keynote on Tuesday, we finally got in standing room only, multiple overflow rooms, and we're even hearing that, so this is day four of the summit for them, there are still queues to get into breakout sessions. The momentum, but the appetite for this flywheel, and what they're creating, but also they're involving this massively growing ecosystem in its evolution. It's that synergy was really very much heard, and echoed throughout pretty much all of our segments the last couple days. >> Yeah, it was amazing actually. So we like to go, we want to be in the front row in the keynotes, we're taking notes, we always do that. Sometimes we listen remotely, but when you listen remotely, you miss some things. When you're there, you can see the executives, you can feel their energy, you can chit chat to them on the side, be seen, whatever. And it was crazy, we couldn't get in. So we had to do our thing, and sneak our way in, and "Hey, we're media." "Oh yeah, come on in." And then no, they were taking us to a breakout room. We had to sneak in a side door, got like the last two seats, and wow, I'm glad we were in there because it gave us a better sense. When you're in the remote watching rooms you just can't get a sense of the energy. That's why I like to be there, I know you do too. And then to your point about ecosystem. So we've said many times that what Snowflake is developing is what we call supercloud. It's not just a SaaS, it's not just a cloud database, it's a new layer that they're creating. And so what are the attributes of that layer? Well, it hides the underlying complexity of the underlying primitives of the cloud. We've said that ad nauseam, and it adds new value on top. Well, what's that value that they're adding? Well, they're adding value of being able to share data, collaborate, have data that's governed, and secure, globally. And now the other hallmark of a cloud company is ecosystem. And so they're building that ecosystem much more rapidly than we saw at ServiceNow, which is Slootman's previous company. And the key to me is they've launched an application development platform, essentially a super PaaS, so that you can develop applications on top of the data cloud. And we're hearing tons about monetization. Duh, you could actually make money with data. You can package data into data products, and data services, or feed data products and services, and actually sell that in a cloud, in a supercloud. That's exactly what's happening here. So that's critical. I think my one question mark if I had to lay one out, is the other hallmark of a cloud is startup, startups come into that cloud. And I think we're seeing that, maybe not at the pace that AWS did, it's a little different. Snowflake are, they're whale hunters. They're after big companies. But it looks to me like they're relying on the ecosystem to be the startup innovators. That's the important thing about cloud, cloud brings scale. It definitely brings lower cost 'cause you're eliminating all this undifferentiated labor, but it also brings innovation through startups. So unlike AWS, who sold the startups directly, and startups built businesses on AWS, and by paying AWS, it's a little bit indirect, but it's actually happening where startups in the ecosystem are building products on the data cloud, and that ultimately is going to drive value for customers, and money for Snowflake, and ultimately AWS, and Google, and Azure. The other thing I would say is the criticism or concern that the cost of goods sold for cloud are going to be so high that it's going to force people to come back on-prem. I think it's a step in the wrong direction. I think cloud, and the cloud operating model is here to stay. I think it's going to be very difficult to replicate that on-prem. I don't think you can do cloud without cloud, and we'll see what the edge brings. >> Curious what your thoughts are. We were just at Dell technologies world a month or so ago when the big announcement, the Snowflake partnership there, cloud native companies recognizing, ah, there's still a lot of data that lives on-prem. Given that, and everything that we've heard the last couple of days, what are your thoughts around that and their partnerships there? >> So Dell is, I think finally, now maybe they weren't publicly talking like this, but certainly their marketing was defensive. But in the last year or so, Dell has really embraced cloud, not just the cloud operating model, Dell has said, "Look, we can build value on top of all these hyperscalers." And we saw some examples at Dell Tech World of them stepping their toe into supercloud. Project Alpine is an example, and there are others. And then of course the Snowflake deal, where Snowflake and Dell got together, I asked Frank Slootman how that deal came about. And 'cause I said, "Did the customer get you into a headlock?" 'Cause I presume that was the case. Customer said, "You got to do this or we're not going to do business with you." He said, "Well, no, not really. Michael and I had a chat, and that's how it started." Which was my other scenario, and that's exactly what happened I guess. The point being that those worlds are coming together. And so what it means for Dell is as they embrace cloud, as they develop supercloud capabilities, they're going to do a lot of business. Dell for sure knows how to sell, they know how to execute. What I would be doing if I were Dell, is I would be trying to substantially replicate what's happening in the cloud on-prem with on-prem data. So what happens with that Snowflake deal is, it's read-only data, you read the data into the cloud, the compute is in the cloud. And I should've asked Terry this, I mean Benoit. Can there be an architecture on-prem? We've seen at Vertica has one, it's called Vertica Eon where you separate compute from storage. It doesn't have unlimited elasticity, but you can grow, compute, and storage independently, and have a lot more. With Dell doing APEX on demand, it's cloudlike, they could begin to develop a little mini data cloud, or a big data cloud within on-prem that connects to the public cloud. So what Snowflake is missing, a big part of their TAM that they're missing is the on-prem. The Dell and Pure deals are forays into that, but this on-prem is massive, and Dell is the on-prem poster child. So I think again what it means for them is they've got to continue to embrace it, they got to do more in software, more in data management, they got to push on APEX. And I'd say the same thing for HPE. I think they're both well behind this in terms of ecosystems. I mean they're not even close. But they have to start, and they got to start somewhere, and they've got resources to make it happen. >> You said in your breaking analysis that you published just a few days ago before the event that Snowflake plans to create a de facto standard in data platforms. What we heard from our guests on this program, your mainstage session with Frank Slootman. Still think that? >> I do. I think it more than I believed it coming in. And the reason I called it that is because I am a super fan of Zhamak Dehghani and her data mesh. And what her vision is, it's kind of the Immaculate Conception, where she wants everything to be open, open standards, and those don't exist today. And I think she perfectly realizes the practicality of de facto standards are going to get to market, and add value sooner than open standards. Now open standards over time, and I'll come back to that, may occur, but that's clear to me what Snowflake is creating, is the de facto standard for data platforms, the data cloud, the supercloud. And what's most impressive, or I think really important, is they're layering applications now on top of that. The metric to me, and I don't know if we can even count this, but VMware used to use it. For every dollar spent on VMware license, $15 was spent in the ecosystem. It started at 1 to 1.5, 1 to 2, 1 to 10, 1 to 15, I think it went up to 1 to 30 at the max. I don't know how they counted that, but it's countable. Reasonable people can make estimates like that. And I think as the ecosystem grows, what Snowflake's doing is it's in many respects modeling the cloud, what the cloud has. Cloud has ecosystems, we talked about startups, and the cloud also has optionality. And optionality means open source. So what you saw with Apache Iceberg is we're going to extend to open technologies. What you saw with Hybrid tables is we're going to extend a new workloads like transactions. The other thing about Snowflake that's really impressive is you're seeing the vertical focus. Financial services, healthcare, retail, media and entertainment. It's very rare for a company in this tenure, they're only 10 years old, to really start going vertical with their go-to-market, and building expertise around that. I think what's going to happen is the GSIs are going to come in, they love to eat at the trough, the trough here is maybe not big enough for them yet, but it will be. And they're going to start to align with the GSIs, and they're going to do really well within those industries, connecting people, collaborating with data. But I think it's a killer strategy, but they're executing on it. >> Right, and we heard a lot of great customer stories from all of those four verticals that you talked about, and then some, that that direction and that pivot from a customer perspective, from a sales and marketing perspective is all aligned. And that was kind of one of the themes as well that Frank talked about in his keynote is mission alignment, mission alignment with customers, but also with the ecosystem. And I feel that I heard that with every customer conversation, with every partner conversation, and Snowflake conversation that we had over the last I think 36 segments, Dave. >> Yeah, I mean, yeah, it's the power of many versus the resources of one. And even though Snowflake tell you they have $5 billion in cash, and assets on the balance sheet, and that's fine, that's nothing compared to what an ecosystem has. And Amazon's part of that ecosystem. Azure is part of that ecosystem. Google is part of that ecosystem. Those companies have huge resources, and Snowflake it seems has figured out how to tap those resources, and build value on top of it. To me they're doing a better job than a lot of the cloud databases out there. They don't necessarily have a better database, in fact, I could argue that their database is less functional. And I would argue that actually in many cases. Their database is less functional if you just want a database. But if you want a data cloud, and an ecosystem, and develop applications on top of that, and to be able to monetize, that's unique, and that is a moat that they're building that is highly differentiable, and being able to do that relatively easily. I mean, I think they overstate the simplicity with which that is being done. We talked to some customers who said, he didn't say same wine, new bottle. I did ask him that, about Hadoop complexity. And he said, "No, it's not that bad." But you still got to put this stuff together. And I think in the early parts of a market that are immature, people get really excited because it's so much easier than what was previous. So my other question is, okay, what's somebody working on now, that's looking at what Snowflake's doing and saying, I can improve on that. And what's going to be really interesting to see is, can they improve on it in a way, and can they raise enough capital such that they can disrupt, or is Snowflake going to keep staying paranoid, 'cause they got good leaders, and keep executing? And then I think the other wild card is edge. Snowflake doesn't really have an edge strategy right now. I think they will develop one. >> Through the ecosystem? >> And I don't think they're missing the boat, and they'll do it through the ecosystem, exactly. I don't think they're missing the boat, I think they're just like, "Well, we don't know what to do today." It's all distributed data, and it's ephemeral, and nobody's storing the data. You know anything that comes back to the cloud, we get. But new architectures are emerging on the edge that are going to bring new economics. There's new silicon, you see what's happening with Apple, and the M1, the M1 Ultra, and the new systems that they've just developed. What Tesla is doing with custom silicon, and amazing things, and programmability of the arm model. So it's early days, but semiconductors are the mainspring of innovation in this industry. Without chips, you got nothing. And when you get innovations in silicon, it drives innovations in software, because developers go, "Wow, I can do that now?" I can do things in parallel, I can do things faster, I can do things more simply, and programmable at scale. So that's happening. And that's going to bring a new set of economics that the premise is that will eventually bleed into the data center. It will, it always does. And I guess the other thing is every 15 years or so, the world gets disrupted, the tech world. We're about 15, 16 years in now to the cloud. So at this point, everybody's like, "Wow this is insurmountable, this is all we'll ever see. Everything that's ever been invented, this is the model of the future." We know that's not the case. I don't know how it's going to get disrupted, but I think edge is going to be part of that. It could be public policy. Governments could come in and take big tech on, seems like Sharekhan wants to do that. So that's what makes this industry so fun. >> Never a dull moment, Dave. This has been a great three days hosting this show with you. We've uncovered a lot. Your breaking analysis was great to get me prepared for the show. If you haven't seen it, check it out on siliconangle.com. Thanks, Dave, I appreciate all of your insights. >> Thank you, Lisa, It's been a pleasure working with you. >> Always good to work with you. >> Awesome, great job. >> Likewise. Great job to the team. >> Yes, thank you to our awesome production team. They've kept us going for three days. >> Yes, and the team back, Kristin, and Cheryl, and everybody back at the office. >> Exactly, it takes a village. For Dave Vellante, I am Lisa Martin. We are wrappin' up three days of wall-to-wall coverage at Snowflake Summit 22 from Vegas. Thanks for watching guys, we'll see you soon. (upbeat music)

>>Okay. Okay. We're back at Caesar's Forum. The Snowflake summit 2022. The cubes. Continuous coverage this day to wall to wall coverage. We're so excited to have the analyst panel here, some of my colleagues that we've done a number. You've probably seen some power panels that we've done. David McGregor is here. He's the senior vice president and research director at Ventana Research. To his left is Tony Blair, principal at DB Inside and my in the co host seat. Sanjeev Mohan Sanremo. Guys, thanks so much for coming on. I'm glad we can. Thank you. You're very welcome. I wasn't able to attend the analyst action because I've been doing this all all day, every day. But let me start with you, Dave. What have you seen? That's kind of interested you. Pluses, minuses. Concerns. >>Well, how about if I focus on what I think valuable to the customers of snowflakes and our research shows that the majority of organisations, the majority of people, do not have access to analytics. And so a couple of things they've announced I think address those are helped to address those issues very directly. So Snow Park and support for Python and other languages is a way for organisations to embed analytics into different business processes. And so I think that will be really beneficial to try and get analytics into more people's hands. And I also think that the native applications as part of the marketplace is another way to get applications into people's hands rather than just analytical tools. Because most most people in the organisation or not, analysts, they're doing some line of business function. Their HR managers, their marketing people, their salespeople, their finance people right there, not sitting there mucking around in the data. They're doing a job and they need analytics in that job. So, >>Tony, I thank you. I've heard a lot of data mesh talk this week. It's kind of funny. Can't >>seem to get away from it. You >>can't see. It seems to be gathering momentum, but But what have you seen? That's been interesting. >>What I have noticed. Unfortunately, you know, because the rooms are too small, you just can't get into the data mesh sessions, so there's a lot of interest in it. Um, it's still very I don't think there's very much understanding of it, but I think the idea that you can put all the data in one place which, you know, to me, stuff like it seems to be kind of sort of in a way, it sounds like almost like the Enterprise Data warehouse, you know, Clouded Cloud Native Edition, you know, bring it all in one place again. Um, I think it's providing, sort of, You know, it's I think, for these folks that think this might be kind of like a a linchpin for that. I think there are several other things that actually that really have made a bigger impression on me. Actually, at this event, one is is basically is, um we watch their move with Eunice store. Um, and it's kind of interesting coming, you know, coming from mongo db last week. And I see it's like these two companies seem to be going converging towards the same place at different speeds. I think it's not like it's going to get there faster than Mongo for a number of different reasons, but I see like a number of common threads here. I mean, one is that Mongo was was was a company. It's always been towards developers. They need you know, start cultivating data, people, >>these guys going the other way. >>Exactly. Bingo. And the thing is that but they I think where they're converging is the idea of operational analytics and trying to serve all constituencies. The other thing, which which also in terms of serving, you know, multiple constituencies is how snowflake is laid out Snow Park and what I'm finding like. There's an interesting I economy. On one hand, you have this very ingrained integration of Anaconda, which I think is pretty ingenious. On the other hand, you speak, let's say, like, let's say the data robot folks and say, You know something our folks wanna work data signs us. We want to work in our environment and use snowflake in the background. So I see those kind of some interesting sort of cross cutting trends. >>So, Sandy, I mean, Frank Sullivan, we'll talk about there's definitely benefits into going into the walled garden. Yeah, I don't think we dispute that, but we see them making moves and adding more and more open source capabilities like Apache iceberg. Is that a Is that a move to sort of counteract the narrative that the data breaks is put out there. Is that customer driven? What's your take on that? >>Uh, primarily I think it is to contract this whole notion that once you move data into snowflake, it's a proprietary format. So I think that's how it started. But it's hugely beneficial to the customers to the users, because now, if you have large amounts of data in parquet files, you can leave it on s three. But then you using the the Apache iceberg table format. In a snowflake, you get all the benefits of snowflakes. Optimizer. So, for example, you get the, you know, the micro partitioning. You get the meta data. So, uh, in a single query, you can join. You can do select from a snowflake table union and select from iceberg table, and you can do store procedures, user defined functions. So I think they what they've done is extremely interesting. Uh, iceberg by itself still does not have multi table transactional capabilities. So if I'm running a workload, I might be touching 10 different tables. So if I use Apache iceberg in a raw format, they don't have it. But snowflake does, >>right? There's hence the delta. And maybe that maybe that closes over time. I want to ask you as you look around this I mean the ecosystems pretty vibrant. I mean, it reminds me of, like reinvent in 2013, you know? But then I'm struck by the complexity of the last big data era and a dupe and all the different tools. And is this different, or is it the sort of same wine new new bottle? You guys have any thoughts on that? >>I think it's different and I'll tell you why. I think it's different because it's based around sequel. So if back to Tony's point, these vendors are coming at this from different angles, right? You've got data warehouse vendors and you've got data lake vendors and they're all going to meet in the middle. So in your case, you're taught operational analytical. But the same thing is true with Data Lake and Data Warehouse and Snowflake no longer wants to be known as the Data Warehouse. There a data cloud and our research again. I like to base everything off of that. >>I love what our >>research shows that organisation Two thirds of organisations have sequel skills and one third have big data skills, so >>you >>know they're going to meet in the middle. But it sure is a lot easier to bring along those people who know sequel already to that midpoint than it is to bring big data people to remember. >>Mrr Odula, one of the founders of Cloudera, said to me one time, John Kerry and the Cube, that, uh, sequel is the killer app for a Yeah, >>the difference at this, you know, with with snowflake, is that you don't have to worry about taming the zoo. Animals really have thought out the ease of use, you know? I mean, they thought about I mean, from the get go, they thought of too thin to polls. One is ease of use, and the other is scale. And they've had. And that's basically, you know, I think very much differentiates it. I mean, who do have the scale, but it didn't have the ease of use. But don't I >>still need? Like, if I have, you know, governance from this vendor or, you know, data prep from, you know, don't I still have to have expertise? That's sort of distributed in those those worlds, right? I mean, go ahead. Yeah. >>So the way I see it is snowflake is adding more and more capabilities right into the database. So, for example, they've they've gone ahead and added security and privacy so you can now create policies and do even set level masking, dynamic masking. But most organisations have more than snowflake. So what we are starting to see all around here is that there's a whole series of data catalogue companies, a bunch of companies that are doing dynamic data masking security and governance data observe ability, which is not a space snowflake has gone into. So there's a whole ecosystem of companies that that is mushrooming, although, you know so they're using the native capabilities of snowflake, but they are at a level higher. So if you have a data lake and a cloud data warehouse and you have other, like relational databases, you can run these cross platform capabilities in that layer. So so that way, you know, snowflakes done a great job of enabling that ecosystem about >>the stream lit acquisition. Did you see anything here that indicated there making strong progress there? Are you excited about that? You're sceptical. Go ahead. >>And I think it's like the last mile. Essentially. In other words, it's like, Okay, you have folks that are basically that are very, very comfortable with tableau. But you do have developers who don't want to have to shell out to a separate tool. And so this is where Snowflake is essentially working to address that constituency, um, to San James Point. I think part of it, this kind of plays into it is what makes this different from the ado Pere is the fact that this all these capabilities, you know, a lot of vendors are taking it very seriously to make put this native obviously snowflake acquired stream. Let's so we can expect that's extremely capabilities are going to be native. >>And the other thing, too, about the Hadoop ecosystem is Claudia had to help fund all those different projects and got really, really spread thin. I want to ask you guys about this super cloud we use. Super Cloud is this sort of metaphor for the next wave of cloud. You've got infrastructure aws, azure, Google. It's not multi cloud, but you've got that infrastructure you're building a layer on top of it that hides the underlying complexities of the primitives and the a p I s. And you're adding new value in this case, the data cloud or super data cloud. And now we're seeing now is that snowflake putting forth the notion that they're adding a super path layer. You can now build applications that you can monetise, which to me is kind of exciting. It makes makes this platform even less discretionary. We had a lot of talk on Wall Street about discretionary spending, and that's not discretionary. If you're monetising it, um, what do you guys think about that? Is this something that's that's real? Is it just a figment of my imagination, or do you see a different way of coming any thoughts on that? >>So, in effect, they're trying to become a data operating system, right? And I think that's wonderful. It's ambitious. I think they'll experience some success with that. As I said, applications are important. That's a great way to deliver information. You can monetise them, so you know there's there's a good economic model around it. I think they will still struggle, however, with bringing everything together onto one platform. That's always the challenge. Can you become the platform that's hard, hard to predict? You know, I think this is This is pretty exciting, right? A lot of energy, a lot of large ecosystem. There is a network effect already. Can they succeed in being the only place where data exists? You know, I think that's going to be a challenge. >>I mean, the fact is, I mean, this is a classic best of breed versus the umbrella play. The thing is, this is nothing new. I mean, this is like the you know, the old days with enterprise applications were basically oracle and ASAP vacuumed up all these. You know, all these applications in their in their ecosystem, whereas with snowflake is. And if you look at the cloud, folks, the hyper scale is still building out their own portfolios as well. Some are, You know, some hyper skills are more partner friendly than others. What? What Snowflake is saying is that we're going to give all of you folks who basically are competing against the hyper skills in various areas like data catalogue and pipelines and all that sort of wonderful stuff will make you basically, you know, all equal citizens. You know the burden is on you to basically we will leave. We will lay out the A P. I s Well, we'll allow you to basically, you know, integrate natively to us so you can provide as good experience. But the but the onus is on your back. >>Should the ecosystem be concerned, as they were back to reinvent 2014 that Amazon was going to nibble away at them or or is it different? >>I find what they're doing is different. Uh, for example, data sharing. They were the first ones out the door were data sharing at a large scale. And then everybody has jumped in and said, Oh, we also do data sharing. All the hyper scholars came in. But now what snowflake has done is they've taken it to the next level. Now they're saying it's not just data sharing. It's up sharing and not only up sharing. You can stream the thing you can build, test deploy, and then monetise it. Make it discoverable through, you know, through your marketplace >>you can monetise it. >>Yes. Yeah, so So I I think what they're doing is they are taking it a step further than what hyper scale as they are doing. And because it's like what they said is becoming like the data operating system You log in and you have all of these different functionalities you can do in machine learning. Now you can do data quality. You can do data preparation and you can do Monetisation. Who do you >>think is snowflakes? Biggest competitor? What do you guys think? It's a hard question, isn't it? Because you're like because we all get the we separate computer from storage. We have a cloud data and you go, Okay, that's nice, >>but there's, like, a crack. I think >>there's uniqueness. I >>mean, put it this way. In the old days, it would have been you know, how you know the prime household names. I think today is the hyper scholars and the idea what I mean again, this comes down to the best of breed versus by, you know, get it all from one source. So where is your comfort level? Um, so I think they're kind. They're their co op a Titian the hyper scale. >>Okay, so it's not data bricks, because why they're smaller. >>Well, there is some okay now within the best of breed area. Yes, there is competition. The obvious is data bricks coming in from the data engineering angle. You know, basically the snowflake coming from, you know, from the from the data analyst angle. I think what? Another potential competitor. And I think Snowflake, basically, you know, admitted as such potentially is mongo >>DB. Yeah, >>Exactly. So I mean, yes, there are two different levels of sort >>of a on a longer term collision course. >>Exactly. Exactly. >>Sort of service now and in salesforce >>thing that was that we actually get when I say that a lot of people just laughed. I was like, No, you're kidding. There's no way. I said Excuse me, >>But then you see Mongo last week. We're adding some analytics capabilities and always been developers, as you say, and >>they trashed sequel. But yet they finally have started to write their first real sequel. >>We have M c M Q. Well, now we have a sequel. So what >>were those numbers, >>Dave? Two thirds. One third. >>So the hyper scale is but the hyper scale urz are you going to trust your hyper scale is to do your cross cloud. I mean, maybe Google may be I mean, Microsoft, perhaps aws not there yet. Right? I mean, how important is cross cloud, multi cloud Super cloud Whatever you want to call it What is your data? >>Shows? Cloud is important if I remember correctly. Our research shows that three quarters of organisations are operating in the cloud and 52% are operating across more than one cloud. So, uh, two thirds of the organisations are in the cloud are doing multi cloud, so that's pretty significant. And now they may be operating across clouds for different reasons. Maybe one application runs in one cloud provider. Another application runs another cloud provider. But I do think organisations want that leverage over the hyper scholars right they want they want to be able to tell the hyper scale. I'm gonna move my workloads over here if you don't give us a better rate. Uh, >>I mean, I I think you know, from a database standpoint, I think you're right. I mean, they are competing against some really well funded and you look at big Query barely, you know, solid platform Red shift, for all its faults, has really done an amazing job of moving forward. But to David's point, you know those to me in any way. Those hyper skills aren't going to solve that cross cloud cloud problem, right? >>Right. No, I'm certainly >>not as quickly. No. >>Or with as much zeal, >>right? Yeah, right across cloud. But we're gonna operate better on our >>Exactly. Yes. >>Yes. Even when we talk about multi cloud, the many, many definitions, like, you know, you can mean anything. So the way snowflake does multi cloud and the way mongo db two are very different. So a snowflake says we run on all the hyper scalar, but you have to replicate your data. What Mongo DB is claiming is that one cluster can have notes in multiple different clouds. That is right, you know, quite something. >>Yeah, right. I mean, again, you hit that. We got to go. But, uh, last question, um, snowflake undervalued, overvalued or just about right >>in the stock market or in customers. Yeah. Yeah, well, but, you know, I'm not sure that's the right question. >>That's the question I'm asking. You know, >>I'll say the question is undervalued or overvalued for customers, right? That's really what matters. Um, there's a different audience. Who cares about the investor side? Some of those are watching, but But I believe I believe that the from the customer's perspective, it's probably valued about right, because >>the reason I I ask it, is because it has so hyped. You had $100 billion value. It's the past service now is value, which is crazy for this student Now. It's obviously come back quite a bit below its IPO price. So But you guys are at the financial analyst meeting. Scarpelli laid out 2029 projections signed up for $10 billion.25 percent free time for 20% operating profit. I mean, they better be worth more than they are today. If they do >>that. If I If I see the momentum here this week, I think they are undervalued. But before this week, I probably would have thought there at the right evaluation, >>I would say they're probably more at the right valuation employed because the IPO valuation is just such a false valuation. So hyped >>guys, I could go on for another 45 minutes. Thanks so much. David. Tony Sanjeev. Always great to have you on. We'll have you back for sure. Having us. All right. Thank you. Keep it right there. Were wrapping up Day two and the Cube. Snowflake. Summit 2022. Right back. Mm. Mhm.

(upbeat music) >> We're back with Steve McDowell, the Principal Analyst for Data & Storage at Moor Insights and Strategy. Hey Steve, great to have you on. Tell us a little bit about yourself. You've got a really interesting background and kind of a blend of engineering and strategy and what's your research focus? >> Yeah, so my research, my focus area is data and storage and all the things around that, whether it's On-Prem or Cloud or, you know, software as a service. My background, as you said, is a blend, right? I grew up as an engineer. I started off as an OS developer at IBM. I came up through the ranks and shifted over into corporate strategy and product marketing and product management, and I have been doing working as an industry analyst now for about five years at Moor Insights and Strategy. >> Steve, how do you see this playing out in the next three to five years? I mean, cloud got it all started, it's going to snowballing. You know, however you look at it percent of spending on storage that you think is going to land in as a service. How do you see the evolution here? >> IT buyers are looking at as a service and consumption base is, you know, a natural model. It extends the data center, brings all of the flexibility all of the goodness that I get from public cloud, but without all of the downside and uncertainty on cost and security and things like that, right, that also come with the public cloud and it's delivered by technology providers that I trust and that I know, and that I worked with, you know, for, in some cases, decades. So, I don't know that we have hard data on how much adoption there is of the model, but we do know that it's trending up, you know and every infrastructure provider at this point has some flavor of offering in the space. So, it's clearly popular with CIOs and IT practitioners alike. >> So Steve, organizations are at a they're different levels of maturity in their, their transformation journeys, and of course, as a result, they're going to have different storage needs that are aligned with their bottom line business objectives. From an IT buyer perspective, you may have data on this, even if it's anecdotal, where does storage as a service actually fit in and can it be a growth lever? >> It can absolutely be a growth leader. It gives me the flexibility as an IT architect to scale my business over time without worrying about how much money I have to invest in storage hardware. Right? So I, I get kind of, again, that cloud like flexibility in terms of procurement and deployment, but it gives me that control by oftentimes being on site within my premise, and then I manage it like a storage array that I own. So, you know, it's beautiful for for organizations that are scaling and it's equally nice for organizations that just want to manage and control cost over time. So, it's a model that makes a lot of sense and fits and certainly growing in adoption and in popularity. >> How about from a technology vendor perspective? You've worked for in the tech industry for companies? What do you think is going to define the winners and losers in this space? If you running strategy for a storage company, what would you say? >> I think the days of of a storage administrator managing, you know, rate levels and recovering and things of that sort are over, right? What these organizations like Pure delivering but they're offering is simplicity. It's a push button approach to deploying storage to the applications and workloads that need it, right? It becomes storage as a utility. So, it's not just the, you know the consumption based economic model of as a service. It's also the manageability that comes with that or the flexibility of management that comes with that. I can push a button, deploy bites to you know a workload that needs it, and it just becomes very simple, right, for the storage administrator, in a way that, you know kind of old school On-Prem storage can't really deliver. >> You know, I want to, I want to ask you, I mean I've been thinking about this because again, a lot of companies are, are you know, moving, hopping on the as a service bandwagon. I feel like, okay, in and of itself, that's not where the innovation lives. The innovation is going to come from making that singular experience from On-Prem to the clouds across clouds maybe eventually out to the edge. Do you, where do you see the innovation in as a service? >> Well, there's two levels of innovation, right? One, is business model innovation, right? I now have an organizational flexibility to build the infrastructure to support my digital transformation efforts, but on the product side and the offering side, it really is as you said, it's about the integration of experience. Every enterprise today touches a cloud in some way, shape or form. Right, I have data spread, not just in my data center, but at the edge, oftentimes in a public cloud, maybe a private cloud. I don't know where my data is, and it really lands on the storage providers to help me manage that and deliver that manageability experience to to the IT administrators. So, when I look at innovation in this space, you know, it's not just a a storage array and rack that I'm leasing, right, this is not another lease model. It's really fully integrated, you know end to end management of my data and yeah and all of the things around that. >> Yeah, so to your point about a lease model is if you're doing a lease, you know, yeah. You can shift CapEx to OPEX, but you're still committed to you have to over provision, whereas here and I wanted to ask you about that. It's an interesting model, right, because you got to read the fine print. Of course the fine print says you got to commit to some level typically, and then if, you know, if you go over you you charge for what you use and you can scale that back down and that's got to be very attractive for folks. I wonder if you we'll ever see like true cloud like consumption pricing, that has two edges to it, right? You see consumption based pricing in some of the software models and you know yeah, people like it, the, the lines of business maybe because they're paying in by the drink, but then procurement hates it because they don't have predictability. How do you see the pricing models? Do you see that maturing or do you think we're sort of locked in on, on where we're at? >> No, I do see that maturing, right? And when you work with a company like Pure to understand their consumption base and as a service and you know, when you work with a company like Pure to understand their consumption base and as a service offerings, it really is sitting down and understanding where your data needs are going to scale. Right? You buy in at a certain level, you have capacity planning. You can expand if you need to. You can shrink if you need to. So, it really does put more control in the hands of the IT buyer than, well certainly then traditional CapEx based On-Prem, but also more control than you would get, you know working with an Amazon or an Azure. >> Well the next 10 years, it ain't going to be like the last 10 years. Thanks Steve! We'll leave it there for now. Love to have you back. Look at, keep it right there. You don't want to miss this next segment where we dig into the customer angle. You're watching theCube production of At Your Storage Service, brought to you by PureStorage. One more. Okay, thanks Steve! We'll leave it there for now. I'd love to have you back. Keep it right there, At Your Storage Service continues in a moment. You're watching theCube. (upbeat music)

(bright upbeat music) >> Okay, we're back with theCUBE's continuous coverage of HPE's latest GreenLake announcement, the continuous cadence that we're seeing here. You know, when you're trying to figure out how to optimize workloads, it's getting more and more complex. Data-driven workloads are coming in to the scene, and so how do you know, with confidence, how to configure your systems, keep your costs down, and get the best performance and value for that? So we're going to talk about that. With me are Chris Shin, who is the founder of CloudPhysics and the senior director of HPE CloudPhysics, and Sandeep Singh, who's the vice-president of Storage Marketing. Gents, great to see you. Welcome. >> Dave, it's a pleasure to be here. >> So let's talk about the problem first, Sandeep, if we could. what are you guys trying to solve? What are you hearing from customers when they talk to you about their workloads and optimizing their workloads? >> Yeah, Dave, that's a great question. Overall, what customers are asking for is just to simplify their world. They want to be able to go faster. A lot of business is asking IT, let's go faster. One of the things that cloud got right is that overall cloud operational experience, that's bringing agility to organizations. We've been on this journey of bringing this cloud operational agility to customers for their data states, especially with HPE GreenLake Edge-to-Cloud platform. >> Dave: Right. >> And we're doing that with, you know, powering that with data-driven intelligence. Across the board, we've been transforming that operational support experience with HPE InfoSight. And what's incredibly exciting is now we're talking about how we can transform that experience in that upfront IT procurement portion of the process. You asked me what are customers asking about in terms of how to optimize those workloads. And when you think about when customers are purchasing infrastructure to support their app workloads, today it's still in the dark ages. They're operating on heuristics, or a gut feel. The data-driven insights are just missing. And with this incredible complexity across the full stack, how do you figure out where should I be placing my apps, whether on Prim or in the public cloud, and/or what's the right size infrastructure built upon what's actually being consumed in terms of resource utilization across the board. That's where we see a tremendous opportunity to continue to transform the experience for customers now with data-driven insights for smarter IT decisions. >> You know, Chris, Sandeep's right. It's like, it's like tribal knowledge. Well, Kenny would know how to do that, but Kenny doesn't work here anymore. So you've announced CloudPhysics. Tell us more about what that is, what impact it's going to have for customers. >> Sure. So just as Sandeep said, basically the problem that exists in IT today is you've got a bunch of customers that are getting overwhelmed with more and more options to solve their business problems. They're looking at cloud options, they're looking at new technologies, they're looking at new sub-technologies and the level at which people are competing for infrastructure sales is down at the very, very, you know, splitting hairs level in terms of features. And they don't know how much of these they need to acquire. Then on the other side, you've got partners and vendors who are trying to package up solutions and products to serve these people's needs. And while the IT industry has, for decades, done a good job of automating problems out of other technology spaces, hasn't done a good job of automating their own problems in terms of what does this customer need? How do I best service them? So you've got an unsatisfied customer and an inadequately equipped partner. CloudPhysics brings those two together in a common data platform, so that both those customers and their partners can look at the same set of data that came out of their data center and pick the solutions that will solve their problems most efficiently. >> So talk more about the partner angle, because it sounds like, you know, if they don't have a Kenny, they really need some help, and it's got to be repeatable. It's got to be consistent. So how have partners reacting to this? >> Very, very strongly. Over the course of the four or five years that that CloudPhysics has been doing this in market, we've had thousands and thousands of VARs, SIs and others, as well as many of the biggest technology providers in the market today, use CloudPhysics to help speed up the sales process, but also create better and more satisfied customers. >> So you guys made... Oh, go ahead, please. >> Well, I was just going to chime into that. When you think about partners that with HPE CloudPhysics, where it supports heterogeneous data center environments, partners all of a sudden get this opportunity to be much more strategic to their customers. They're operating on real world insights that are specific to that customer's environment. So now they can really have a tailored conversation as well as offer tailored solutions designed specifically for the areas, you know, where help is needed. >> Well, I think it builds an affinity with the customer as well, because if the partners that trust advisor, if you give a customer some advice and it's kind of the wrong advice, "Hey, we got to go back and reconfigure that workload. We won't charge you that much for it". You're now paying twice. Like when an accountant makes a mistake on your tax return, you got to pay for that again. But so, you guys acquired CloudPhysics in February of this year. What can you tell us about what's transpired since then? How many engagements that you've done? What kind of metrics can you share? >> Yeah. Chris, do you want to weigh in for that? >> Sure, sure. The start of it really has been to create a bunch of customized analytics on the CloudPhysics platform to target specific sales motions that are relevant to HPE partners. So what do I mean by that? You'll remember that in May, we announced the Alletra Series 6,000 and 9,000. In tandem with that, CloudPhysics released a new set of analytics that help someone who's interested in those technologies figure out what model might be best for them and how much firepower they would need from one or the other of those solutions. Similarly, we have a bunch solutions and a market strength in the HCI world, hyper converged, and that's both SimpliVity and dHCI. And we've set up some analytics that specifically help someone who's interested in that form factor to accelerate, and again, pick the right solutions that will serve their exact applications needs. >> When you talk to customers, are they able to give you a sense as to the cost impacts? I mean, even if it's subjective, "Hey, we think we, you know, we save 10% versus the way we used to do it", or more or less. I mean, just even gut feel metrics. >> So I'll start that one, Sandeep. So there's sort of two ways to look at it. One thing is, because we know everything that's currently running in the data center - we discovered that - we have a pretty good cost of what it is costing them today to run their workloads. So anything that we compare that to, whether it's a transition to public cloud or a transition to a hosted VMware solution, or a set of new infrastructure, we can compare their current costs to the specific solutions that are available to them. But on the more practical side of things, oftentimes customers know intuitively this is a set of servers I bought four years ago, or this is an old array that I know is loose. It's not keeping up anymore. So they typically have some fairly specific places to start, which gives that partner a quick win, solving a specific customer problem. And then it can often boil out into the rest of the data center, and continual optimization can occur. >> How unique is this? I mean, is it, you know, can you give us a little glimpse of the secret sauce behind it? Is this kind of table stakes for the industry? >> Yeah. I mean, look, it's unique in the sense that CloudPhysics brings along over 200 metrics across the spectrum of virtual machines and guest OSs, as well as the overall CPU and RAM utilization, overall infrastructure analysis, and built in cloud simulators. So what customers are able to do is basically, in real time, be able to: A - be aware of exactly what their environment looks like; B - be able to simulate if they were going to move and give an application workload to the cloud; C - they're able to just right-size the underlying infrastructure across the board. Chris? >> Well, I was going to say, yeah, along the same lines, there have been similar technology approaches to different problems. Most notably in the current HPE portfolio, InfoSight. Best in class, data lake driven, very highly analytical machine learning, geared predominantly toward an optimization model, right? CloudPhysics is earlier in the talk track with the customer. We're going to analyze your environment where HPE may not even have a footprint today. And then we're going to give you ideas of what products might help you based on very similar techniques, but approaching a very different problem. >> So you've got data, you've got experience, you know what best practice looks like. You get a sense as to the envelope as to what's achievable, right? And that is just going to get better and better and better over time. One of the things that that I've said, and we've said on theCUBE, is that the definition of cloud is changing. It's expanding, it's not just public cloud anymore. It's a remote set of services, it's coming on Prim, there's a hybrid connection. We're going across clouds, we're going out to the edge. So can CloudPhysics help with that complexity? >> Yeah, absolutely. So we have a set of analytics in the cloud world that range from we're going to price your on-premise IT. We also have the ability to simulate a transition, a set of workloads to AWS, Azure, or Google Cloud. We also have the ability to translate to VMware based solutions on many of those public clouds. And we're increasingly spreading our umbrella over GreenLake as well, and showing the optimization opportunities for a GreenLake solution when contrasted with some of those other clouds. So there's not a lot of... >> So it's not static. >> It's not static at all. And Dave, you were mentioning earlier in terms such as proven. CloudPhysics now has operated on trillions of data points over millions of virtual machines across thousands of overall data assessments. So there's a lot of proven learnings through that as well as actual optimizations that customers have benefited from. >> Yes. I mean, there's benchmarks, but it's more than that because benchmarks tend to be static, okay. We consider rules of thumb. We're living in an age with a lot more data, a lot more machine intelligence. And so this is organic, it'll evolve. >> Sandeep: Absolutely. >> And the partners who work with their customers on a regular basis over at CloudPhysics, and then build up a history over time of what's changing in their data center can even provide better service. They can look back over a year, if we've been collecting, and they can see what the operating system landscape has changed, how different workloads have lost popularity, how other ones have gained. And they really can become a much better solution provider to that customer the longer CloudPhysics is used. >> Yeah, it gives your partners a competitive advantage, it's a much stickier model because the customer is going to trust your partner more if they get it right. So we're not going to change horses in the middle of the street. We're going to go back to the partner that set us up, and they keep getting better and better and better each time, we've got a good cadence going. All right. Sandeep, bring us home. What's your sort of summary? How should we think about this going forward? >> Well, I'll bring us right back to the way I started is, and to end, we're looking at how we continue to deliver best in class cloud operational experience for customers across the board with HPE GreenLake. And earlier this year, we unveiled this cloud operation experience for data, and for customers, that experience starts with a cloud consult where they can essentially discover services, consume services, that overall operational and support experience is transformed with HPE InfoSight. And now we're transforming this experience where any organization out there that's looking to get data-driven insights into what should they do next? Where should they place their workloads? How to right-size the infrastructure? And in the process, be able to transform how they are working and collaborating with their partners. They're able to do that now with HPE CloudPhysics, bringing these data driven insights for smarter IT decision-making. >> I like this a lot, because a lot of the cloud is trial and error. And when you try and you make a mistake, you're paying each time. So this is a great innovation to really help clients focus on the things that matter, you know, helping them apply technology to solve their business problems. Guys, thanks so much for coming to theCUBE. Appreciate it. >> Dave, always a pleasure. >> Thanks very much for having us. >> And keep it right there. We got more content from HPE's GreenLake announcements. Look for the cadence. One of the hallmarks of cloud is the cadence of announcements. We're seeing HPE on a regular basis, push out new innovations. Keep it right there for more. (bright upbeat music begins) (bright upbeat music ends)

>> Okay, we continue now with the theme of turning ideas into insights so ultimately you can take action. We heard earlier that public cloud first doesn't mean public cloud only. And a winning strategy comprises data, irrespective of physical location on prem, across multiple clouds at the edge where real-time inference is going to drive a lot of incremental value. Data is going to help the world come back to normal we heard, or at least semi normal as we begin to better understand and forecast demand and supply imbalances and economic forces. AI is becoming embedded into every aspect of our business, our people, our processings, and applications. And now we're going to get into some of the foundational principles that support the data and insights centric processes, which are fundamental to digital transformation initiatives. And it's my pleasure to welcome two great guests, Michelle Goetz, who's a Cube alum and VP and principal analyst at Forrester, and doin' some groundbreaking work in this area. And Cindy Maike who is the vice president of industry solutions and value management at Cloudera. Welcome to both of you. >> Welcome, thank you. >> Thanks Dave. >> All right Michelle, let's get into it. Maybe you could talk about your foundational core principles. You start with data. What are the important aspects of this first principle that are achievable today? >> It's really about democratization. If you can't make your data accessible, it's not usable. Nobody's able to understand what's happening in the business and they don't understand what insights can be gained or what are the signals that are occurring that are going to help them with decisions, create stronger value or create deeper relationships with their customers due to their experiences. So it really begins with how do you make data available and bring it to where the consumer of the data is rather than trying to hunt and peck around within your ecosystem to find what it is that's important. >> Great thank you for that. So, Cindy, I wonder in hearing what Michelle just said, what are your thoughts on this? And when you work with customers at Cloudera, are there any that stand out that perhaps embody the fundamentals that Michelle just shared? >> Yeah, there's quite a few. And especially as we look across all the industries that were actually working with customers in. A few that stand out in top of mind for me is one is IQVIA. And what they're doing with real-world evidence and bringing together data across the entire healthcare and life sciences ecosystems, bringing it together in different shapes and formats, making it accessible by both internally, as well as for the entire extended ecosystem. And then for SIA, who's working to solve some predictive maintenance issues within, they're are a European car manufacturer and how do they make sure that they have efficient and effective processes when it comes to fixing equipment and so forth. And then also there's an Indonesian based telecommunications company, Techsomel, who's bringing together over the last five years, all their data about their customers and how do they enhance a customer experience, how do they make information accessible, especially in these pandemic and post pandemic times. Just getting better insights into what customers need and when do they need it? >> Cindy, platform is another core principle. How should we be thinking about data platforms in this day and age? Where do things like hybrid fit in? What's Cloudera's point of view here? >> Platforms are truly an enabler. And data needs to be accessible in many different fashions, and also what's right for the business. When I want it in a cost and efficient and effective manner. So, data resides everywhere, data is developed and it's brought together. So you need to be able to balance both real time, our batch, historical information. It all depends upon what your analytical workloads are and what types of analytical methods you're going to use to drive those business insights. So putting in placing data, landing it, making it accessible, analyzing it, needs to be done in any accessible platform, whether it be a public cloud doing it on-prem or a hybrid of the two is typically what we're seeing being the most successful. >> Great, thank you. Michelle let's move on a little bit and talk about practices and processes, the next core principles. Maybe you could provide some insight as to how you think about balancing practices and processes while at the same time managing agility. >> Yeah, it's a really great question 'cause it's pretty complex when you have to start to connect your data to your business. The first thing to really gravitate towards is what are you trying to do. And what Cindy was describing with those customer examples is that they're all based off of business goals, off of very specific use cases. That helps kind of set the agenda about what is the data and what are the data domains that are important to really understanding and recognizing what's happening within that business activity and the way that you can affect that either in near time or real time, or later on, as you're doing your strategic planning. What that's balancing against is also being able to not only see how that business is evolving, but also be able to go back and say, "Well, can I also measure the outcomes from those processes and using data and using insight? Can I also get intelligence about the data to know that it's actually satisfying my objectives to influence my customers in my market? Or is there some sort of data drift or detraction in my analytic capabilities that are allowing me to be effective in those environments?" But everything else revolves around that and really thinking succinctly about a strategy that isn't just data aware, what data do I have and how do I use it? But coming in more from that business perspective, to then start to be data driven, recognizing that every activity you do from a business perspective leads to thinking about information that supports that and supports your decisions. And ultimately getting to the point of being insight driven, where you're able to both describe what you want your business to be with your data, using analytics to then execute on that fluidly and in real time. And then ultimately bringing that back with linking to business outcomes and doing that in a continuous cycle where you can test and you can learn, you can improve, you can optimize and you can innovate. Because you can see your business as it's happening. And you have the right signals and intelligence that allow you to make great decisions. >> I like how you said near time or real time, because it is a spectrum. And at one end of the spectrum, autonomous vehicles. You've got to make a decision in real time but near real-time, or real-time, it's in the eyes of the beholder if you will. It might be before you lose the customer or before the market changes. So it's really defined on a case by case basis. I wonder Michelle, if you could talk about in working with a number of organizations I see folks, they sometimes get twisted up in understanding the dependencies that technology generally, and the technologies around data specifically can sometimes have on critical business processes. Can you maybe give some guidance as to where customers should start? Where can we find some of the quick wins and high returns? >> It comes first down to how does your business operate? So you're going yo take a look at the business processes and value stream itself. And if you can understand how people, and customers, partners, and automation are driving that step by step approach to your business activities, to realize those business outcomes, it's way easier to start thinking about what is the information necessary to see that particular step in the process, and then take the next step of saying what information is necessary to make a decision at that current point in the process? Or are you collecting information, asking for information that is going to help satisfy a downstream process step or a downstream decision? So constantly making sure that you are mapping out your business processes and activities, aligning your data process to that helps you now rationalize do you need that real time, near real time, or do you want to start creating greater consistency by bringing all of those signals together in a centralized area to eventually oversee the entire operations and outcomes as they happen? It's the process, and the decision points, and acting on those decision points for the best outcome that really determines are you going to move in more of a real-time streaming capacity, or are you going to push back into more of a batch oriented approach? Because it depends on the amount of information and the aggregate of which provides the best insight from that. >> Got it. Let's, bring Cindy back into the conversation here. Cindy, we often talk about people, process, and technology and the roles they play in creating a data strategy that's logical and sound. Can you speak to the broader ecosystem and the importance of creating both internal and external partners within an organization? >> Yeah. And that's kind of building upon what Michelle was talking about. If you think about datas and I hate to use the phrase almost, but the fuel behind the process and how do you actually become insight-driven. And you look at the capabilities that you're needing to enable from that business process, that insight process. Your extended ecosystem on how do I make that happen? Partners and picking the right partner is important because a partner is one that actually helps you implement what your decisions are. So looking for a partner that has the capability that believes in being insight-driven and making sure that when you're leveraging data within your process that if you need to do it in a real-time fashion, that they can actually meet those needs of the business. And enabling on those process activities. So the ecosystem looking at how you look at your vendors, and fundamentally they need to be that trusted partner. Do they bring those same principles of value, of being insight driven? So they have to have those core values themselves in order to help you as a business person enable those capabilities. >> So Cindy I'm cool with fuel, but it's like super fuel when you talk about data. 'Cause it's not scarce, right? You're never going to run out. (Dave chuckling) So Michelle, let's talk about leadership. Who leads? What does so-called leadership look like in an organization that's insight driven? >> So I think the really interesting thing that is starting to evolve as late is that organizations, enterprises are really recognizing that not just that data is an asset and data has value, but exactly what we're talking about here, data really does drive what your business outcomes are going to be. Data driving into the insight or the raw data itself has the ability to set in motion what's going to happen in your business processes and your customer experiences. And so, as you kind of think about that, you're now starting to see your CEO, your CMO, your CRO coming back and saying, I need better data. I need information that's representative of what's happening in my business. I need to be better adaptive to what's going on with my customers. And ultimately that means I need to be smarter and have clearer forecasting into what's about ready to come. Not just one month, two months, three months, or a year from now, but in a week or tomorrow. And so that is having a trickle down effect to then looking at two other types of roles that are elevating from technical capacity to more business capacity. You have your chief data officer that is shaping the experiences with data and with insight and reconciling what type of information is necessary with it within the context of answering these questions and creating a future fit organization that is adaptive and resilient to things that are happening. And you also have a chief digital officer who is participating because they're providing the experience and shaping the information and the way that you're going to interact and execute on those business activities. And either running that autonomously or as part of an assistance for your employees and for your customers. So really to go from not just data aware to data-driven, but ultimately to be insight driven, you're seeing way more participation and leadership at that C-suite level and just underneath, because that's where the subject matter expertise is coming in to know how to create a data strategy that is tightly connected to your business strategy. >> Great, thank you. Let's wrap, and I've got a question for both of you, maybe Cindy, you could start and then Michelle bring us home. A lot of customers, they want to understand what's achievable. So it's helpful to paint a picture of a maturity model. I'd love to go there, but I'm not going to get there anytime soon, but I want to take some baby steps. So when you're performing an analysis on an insight driven organization, Cindy what do you see as the major characteristics that define the differences between sort of the early beginners sort of fat middle, if you will, and then the more advanced constituents? >> Yeah, I'm going to build upon what Michelle was talking about is data as an asset. And I think also being data aware and trying to actually become insight driven. Companies can also have data, and they can have data as a liability. And so when you're data aware, sometimes data can still be a liability to your organization. If you're not making business decisions on the most recent and relevant data, you're not going to be insight-driven. So you've got to move beyond that data awareness, where you're looking at data just from an operational reporting. But data's fundamentally driving the decisions that you make as a business. You're using data in real time. You're leveraging data to actually help you make and drive those decisions. So when we use the term you're data-driven, you can't just use the term tongue-in-cheek. It actually means that I'm using the recent, the relevant, and the accuracy of data to actually make the decisions for me, because we're all advancing upon, we're talking about artificial intelligence and so forth being able to do that. If you're just data aware, I would not be embracing on leveraging artificial intelligence. Because that means I probably haven't embedded data into my processes. Yes, data could very well still be a liability in your organization, so how do you actually make it an asset? >> Yeah I think data aware it's like cable ready. (Dave chuckling) So Michelle, maybe you could add to what Cindy just said and maybe add as well any advice that you have around creating and defining a data strategy. >> So every data strategy has a component of being data aware. This is like building the data museum. How do you capture everything that's available to you? How do you maintain that memory of your business? Bringing in data from your applications, your partners, third parties, wherever that information is available, you want to ensure that you're capturing it and you're managing and you're maintaining it. And this is really where you're starting to think about the fact that it is an asset, it has value. But you may not necessarily know what that value is yet. If you move into a category of data driven, what starts to shift and change there is you're starting to classify label, organize the information in context of how you're making decisions and how you do business. It could start from being more proficient from an analytic purpose. You also might start to introduce some early stages of data science in there. So you can do some predictions and some data mining to start to weed out some of those signals. And you might have some simple types of algorithms that you're deploying to do a next next best action, for example. And that's what data-driven is really about. You're starting to get value out of it. The data itself is starting to make sense in context of your business, but what you haven't done quite yet, which is what insight driven businesses are, is really starting to take away the gap between when you see it, know it, and then get the most value and really exploit what that is at the time when it's right, so in the moment. We talk about this in terms of perishable insights, data and insights are ephemeral. And we want to ensure that the way that we're managing that and delivering on that data and insights is in time with our decisions and the highest value outcome we're going to have, that that insight can provide us. So are we just introducing it as data-driven organizations where we could see spreadsheets and PowerPoint presentations and lots of mapping to help make longer strategic decisions, or are those insights coming up and being activated in an automated fashion within our business processes that are either assisting those human decisions at the point when they're needed, or an automated decisions for the types of digital experiences and capabilities that we're driving in our organization. So it's going from, I'm a data hoarder if I'm data aware to I'm interested in what's happening as a data-driven organization and understanding my data. And then lastly being insight driven is really where light between business, data and insight, there is none, it's all coming together for the best outcomes. >> Right, it's like people are acting on perfect or near perfect information. Or machines are doing so with a high degree of confidence. Great advice and insights, and thank you both for sharing your thoughts with our audience today, it was great to have you. >> Thank you. >> Thank you. >> Okay, now we're going to go into our industry deep dives. There are six industry breakouts. Financial services, insurance, manufacturing, retail communications, and public sector. Now each breakout is going to cover two distinct use cases for a total of essentially 12 really detailed segments. Now each of these is going to be available on demand, but you can scan the calendar on the homepage and navigate to your breakout session of choice. Or for more information, click on the agenda page and take a look to see which session is the best fit for you and then dive in. Join the chat and feel free to ask questions or contribute your knowledge, opinions, and data. Thanks so much for being part of the community, and enjoy the rest of the day. (upbeat music)

(upbeat music) >> Welcome to today's session of theCUBE's presentation of the AWS Startup Showcase, the Next Big Thing in AI, Security & Life Sciences. Today we're joined by Abacus Insights for the Life Sciences track, I'm your host, Natalie Ehrlich. Now we're going to be speaking about creating an innovation enabling data environment to accelerate your healthcare analytics journey, and we're now joined by our guests Krishna Kottapalli, chief commercial officer as well as Sumant Rao, chief product officer, both working at Abacus Insights, thank you very much for joining us. >> Thank you for having us. >> Well let's kick off with our theme Krishna, how can we create innovation enabling data environments in order to facilitate the healthcare analytics? >> Yeah, so I think if you sort of think about this that is a lot of data proliferating inside the healthcare system, and whether it's through the internal sources, external sources, devices, patient monitoring platforms, and so on, and all of this carries yeah all of these essentially carry, have useful data and intelligence, right, and essentially the users are looking to get insights out of it to solve problems. And we're also seeing that the journey that our clients are going through is actually a transformation journey, right so they are thinking about how do we seamlessly interact with our stakeholders, so their stakeholders being members and providers, so that they don't get frustrated and feel like they're interacting with multiple parts of the health plan, right, we typically when you call the health plan you feel like you're calling five different departments, so they want to have a seamless experience, and finally, I think the whole, you know, the data being you know, in the ecosystem within the patients, payers, and providers being able to operate and interact has intelligence. So what we, what we think about this is how do we take all of this and help our clients you know, digitize their, you know, path forward and create a way to deliver, you know enable them to do meaningful analytics. >> Well Sumant, when you think about your customers what are the key benefits that Abacus is providing? >> So that's a good question, so primarily speaking, we approach this as, you know a framework that drives innovation that enables data and analytics. I mean, that's really what we're trying to do here. What Abacus does though, is this is slightly different is how we think about this. So we firmly believe that data analytics is not a linear journey, I mean, you cannot say that, oh I'll build my data foundation first and then, you know have the data and then they shall come that's not how it works. So for us, the way Abacus approaches this is, we focus really heavily on the data foundation part of it first. But along the way in the process, a big part of our value statement is we engage and make sure we are driving business value throughout this piece. So, so general message is, you know make sure innovation for the sake of innovation data is not how you're approaching this, but think about your business users, get them engaged, have it small, milestone driven progress that you make along the way. So, so generally speaking, it's we're not tryna be just a platform who moves bits and bytes of information. The way we think about this is you know we'll help you along this journey, there are steps that happen that take you there. And because of which, the message to most of our customers is you focus on your core competence. You know your business, you have nuances in the data, you have nuances on needs that your customers need, you focus on that. The scale that Abacus brings because this is what we do day in day out is more along area of re-usability. So if within our customers, they've got data assets how do we reuse some of that? How does Abacus re-use the fact that because of our of what we do, we actually have data assets that, you know, we can bring data to life quickly. So, so general guidelines, right, so first is don't innovate for the sake of innovating. I mean, that's not going to get you far, respect the process that this is not a linear path, there's always value that's happening throughout the process, and that's, you know, Abacus will work closely with you to make sure you recognize that value. The second part is within your organization, you have assets. There's like major data assets, there's IP, there's things that can leverage that Abacus will do. And because we are a platform, what we focus on is configurability. We've done this for, I mean, a lot of us on the Abacus team come from healthcare space, we have got big payer DNA, we get this, and what we also know is data rules change. I mean, you know, it's really hard when you build a system that's tightly built and you cannot change and you cannot adapt as data rules change, so we've made that part of it easier. We have, we understand data governance, so we work closely with our payers data governance teams to make sure that part of it happens. And I think the last part of this which is really important, this in the context of this conversation is, all of this is good stuff, I mean, you've got massive data foundation, you've got, you know, healthcare expertise flowing in, you've got partnerships with data governance, all that is great. If you don't have best-in-class infrastructure supporting all of that, then you really, you will really have issues Erlich. I mean, that's just the way it works, and this is why, you know, we're built on the AWS stack which kind of helps us, and also helps our clients along with their cloud journey. So it's kind of an interesting set of events in terms of you know, again, I'm going to repeat this because it's important that we don't innovate for the sake of innovating, re-use your assets, leverage your existing IP, make things configurable, data changes, and then leverage best in class infrastructure, so Abacus strategy progresses across those four dimensions. >> And I mean, that's an excellent point about healthcare data being really nuanced and you know, Krishna would love to get your insights on what you see are the biggest opportunities in healthcare analytics now. >> Yeah, so the biggest opportunities are, you know there are two, we think about it in two dimensions, right, one is really around sort of the analytics use cases, and second is around the operational use cases, right, so if you think about a payer they're trying to solve both, and we see because of, you know, our the way we think about data, which is close to near real time, we are able to essentially serve up our clients with, you know helping them solve both their use cases. So think of this that, when you're a patient, you go to you know, you go to a CVS to do something, and then you go to your doctor's office to do something, right, to be, to be able to take a test. If all of these are known, to your payer care management team, if you will, in close to near real time then know, right, where you've been, what you can do how to be able to sort of intervene and so on and so forth, so from a next best action and operational use cases we see a lot of them emerging, new thanks to the cloud as well as thanks to infrastructure, which can do sort of near real time. So that's our own sort of operational use cases if you will. If, when you think about the analytics right, so, you know, every, all payers struggle with this, Which is you have limited dollars to be able to intervene with you know, a large set of population, right so every piece of data that you know, have about your patient, about the specific provider so on and so forth is able to actually, you know give you analytics to be able to intervene or engage if you will, with the patient in a very one-to-one manner. And what we find is at the end of the day if the patient is not engaged in this and the member or the patient is not engaged, you know in the healthcare, you know, value chain, if you will, then your dollars go to waste, and we feel that, in essentially both of these type of use cases can be sorted up really well with, with a unified data platform, as well as with upstack analytics. >> And now Sumant, I'd love to hear from you, you know you're really involved with the product, how do you see the competitive landscape? How do you make sure that your product is the best out there? >> So I think, I think a lot of that is we think about ourselves across three, three vectors. Talk about it as core platform, which is at a very minimal level of description, it's really moving bits and bytes from point A to point B. That's one part of it, right, and I think there's a, it's a pretty crowded space, it's a whole bunch of folks out there trying to, you know demonstrate that they can successfully land data from one point to the other. We do that too, we do that at scale. Where you'd start differentiating and pulling away from the pack is the second vector, which is enrichment. Now, this is where again, it's you have to understand healthcare data to really build a level of respect for how messy it can get. And you have to understand it and build it in a way where it's easy to keep up with the changes. We spend a lot of time, you know in building out a platform to do that so that we can implement data quickly. I mean, you know, for Abacus to bring a data source to life in less than 45 days, it's pretty straightforward. And it's you're talking on an average 6 or 12 months across the rest. Because we get this, we've got a library of rules, we understand how to bring this piece, so we start pulling away from the competitors, if you may. More along the enrichment vector, because that's where we think, getting high quality rules, getting these re-used, all of this is part of it, but then we bring another level of enrichment where we have, you know, we use public data sets, we use a reference data sets, we tie this, we fill in the blanks in the data. All of this is the end state, let's make the data shovel-ready for analytics. So we do all of that along the way, so now applying our expertise, cleansing data, making sure it's the gaps are all filled out and getting this ready and then comes the next part where we tie this data out. Cause it's one thing to bring in multiple sources quickly at scale high speed and all that good stuff, which is hard work, but you know, it's, it's expected now at the same time how do you put all that together in a meaningful manner with which we can actually, you know, land it and keep it ready? So that's two parts. So first is, the platform, the nuts and bolts, the pipes, all that is good stuff, the second is the enrichment. The third side, which is really where we start differentiating is distribution. We have a philosophy that, you know, really the mission of the whole company was to get data available. To solve use cases like the one Krishna just talked about. So rather than make this a massive change management program that takes five years to implement, and really scares your end users away, our philosophy is like let's have incremental use case all on the way, but let's talk to the users, let them interact with data as easy as they can. So we've built our partnerships on our distribution hub, which makes it easy, so an example is if you have someone in the marketing team, who really wants to analyze a particular population to reach out to them, and all they know is tableau, it is great. It should be as simple as saying, look what's the sliver of data you need to get your job done, how do you interact? So we've our distribution hub, is really is the part where, users come in, interact with the data with you know, we will meet you where you are is the underlying principle and that's how it operates. So, so I think on the first level of platform, yeah a crowded space everyone's fighting for that piece, the second part of it is enrichment where we really start pulling away using our expertise, and then at the end of it you've got the distribution part where you know you just want to make it available to users, and, you know, a lot of work has gone into getting this done but that's how we work. >> And if I could add a couple more things, Natalie, so the other thing is security, right so the reason that healthcare, healthcare players have not gone to the cloud until about three four years back, is the whole concern about security so we have invested a ton of resources and money to make sure that our platform is run in the most secure manner, and giving confidence to our clients, and it's an expensive process, right, even though you're on AWS you have to have your own certification that, so that that gives us a huge differentiator, and the last but not least is how we actually approach the whole data management deployment process, which is, our clients think about us in two dimensions, total cost of ownership, but typically 50 to 60% of what it would cost internally, and secondly, time to value, right, you can't have an infinitely long deployment cycle. So we think about those two and actually put our skin in the game and tie our, you know, tie our success to total cost of ownership and time to value. >> Well, just really quick in 1-2 sentences, would love to get your insight on Abacus's defining contribution to the future of cloud scale. >> Go ahead, Sumant. >> So as I see it, I think so part of it is we've got some of our clients who are payers and we've got them along their cloud journey trusting one of their key assets which is data, and letting us drive it. And this is really driven by domain expertise, a good understanding of data governance, and a great understanding of security, I mean, combining all of this, we've actually got our clients sitting and operating on, you know pretty significant cloud infrastructure successfully day in day out. So I think we've done our part as far as, you know helping folks along that journey. >> Yeah and just to close it out I would say it is speed, right, it is speed to deployment, you don't have to wait. You know, we have set up the infrastructure, set up the cloud and the ability to get things up and running is literally we think about it in weeks, and not months. >> Terrific, well, thank you both very much for insights, fantastic to have you on the show, really fascinating to hear about how Abacus is leveraging healthcare data expertise on its platform , to drive robust analytics, and of course, here we were joined by Abacus Insights, Krishna Kottapalli, the chief commercial officer, as well as Sumant Rao, the chief product officer, thank you again very much for your insights on this program and this session of the AWS Startup Showcase. (upbeat music)

>>Welcome back to HPD discovered 2021. The virtual edition. My name is Dave Volonte and you're watching the cubes continuous coverage of H. P. S. Big customer event. Patrick Moorehead is here of moor insights and strategy is the number one analyst in the research analyst. Business. Patrick. Always a pleasure. Great to see you, >>David. Great to see you too. And I know you're you're up there fighting for that number one spot to. It's great to see you and it's great to see you in the meetings that were in. But it's even more fun to be here on the cube. I love to be on the cube and every once in a while you'll even call me a friend of the cube, >>unquestionably my friend and so and I can't wait second half. I mean you're traveling right now. We're headed to Barcelona to mobile World Congress later on this month. So so we're gonna we're gonna see each other face to face this year. 100%. So looking forward to that. So you know, let's get into it. Um you know, before we get into H. P. E. Let's talk a little bit about what you're seeing in the market. We've got, you know, we we finally, it feels like the on prem guys are finally getting their cloud act together. Um it's maybe taken a while, but we're seeing as a service models emerge. I think it's resonating with customers. The clearly not everything is moving to the cloud. There's this hybrid model emerging. Multi cloud is real despite what, you know, >>some some >>cloud players want to say. And then there's this edges like jump ball, what are you seeing in the marketplace? >>Yeah. Davis, as exciting as ever in. Just to put in perspective, I mean the public cloud has been around for about 10 years and still only 20% around 20% of the data in 20% of the applications are there now will be a very important ones and I'm certainly not a public cloud denier, I never have been, but there are some missing pieces that need to come together. And you know, even five years ago we were debating dave the hybrid cloud. And I feel like when amazon brought out outposts, the conversation was over right now, what you have is cloud native folks building out hybrid and on prem capabilities, you have a classic on, on prem folks building out hybrid and as a service capabilities. And I really think it boils down 22 things. I mean it's, it's wanting to have more flexibility and you know, I hate to use it because it sounds like a marketing word, but agility, the ability to spin up things and spin down things in a very, a quick way. And uh you know what they've learned, The veterans also know, hey, let's do this in a way that doesn't lock us in too much into a certain vendor. And I've been around for a long time. David and I'm a realist too. Well, you have to lock yourself into something. Uh it just depends on what do you want to lock yourself into, but super exciting and what H. P. E. You know, when they further acts in the sea with Green Lake, I think it was four years ago, uh I think really started to stir the pot. >>You know, you mentioned the term cloud denial, but you know, and I feel like the narrative from, I like to determine as I think you should use the term veteran. You know, it's very, they're ours is the only industry patrick where legacy is a pejorative, but so, but the point I want to make is I feel like there's been a lot of sort of fear from the veteran players, but, but I look at it differently, I wonder what your take is. I, I think, I think I calculated that the Capex spending by the big four public clouds including Alibaba last year was $100 billion. That's like a gift to the world. Here we're gonna spend $100 billion like the internet. Here you go build. And so I, and I feel like companies like HP are finally saying, yeah, we're gonna build, we're gonna build a layer and we're gonna hide the complexity and we're gonna add value on top. What do you think about that? >>Yeah. So I think it's now, I wish, I wish the on prem folks like HP, you would have done it 10 years ago, but I don't think anybody expected the cloud to be as big as it's become over the last 10 years. I think we saw companies like salesforce with sas taking off, but I think it is the right direction because there are advantages to having workloads on prem and if you add an as a service capability on top of the top of that, and let's say even do a Coehlo or a managed service, it's pretty close to being similar to the public cloud with the exception, that you can't necessarily swipe a credit card for a bespoke workload if you're a developer and it is a little harder to scale out. But that is the next step in the equation day, which is having, having these folks make capital expenditures, make them in a Polo facility and then put a layer to swipe a credit card and you literally have the public cloud. >>Yeah. So that's, that's a great point. And that's where it's headed, isn't it? Um, so let's, let's talk about the horses on the track. Hp as you mentioned, I didn't realize it was four years ago. I thought it was, wow, That's amazing. So everybody's followed suit. You see, Dallas announced, Cisco has announced, uh, Lenovo was announced, I think IBM as well. So we, so everybody's sort of following suit there. The reality is, is it's taken some time to get this stuff standardized. What are you seeing from, from HP? They've made some additional announcements, discover what's your take on all this. >>Yeah. So HPD was definitely the rabbit here and they were first in the market. It was good to see. First off some of their, Um, announcements on, on how it's going and they talked about $428 billion 1200 customers over 900 partners and 95% retention. And I think that's important. Anybody who's in the lead and remember what aws I used to do with the slide with the amount of customers would just get bigger and bigger and bigger and that's a good way to show momentum. I like the retention part two which is 95%. And I think that that says a lot uh probably the more important announcements that they made is they talked about the G. A. Of some of their solutions on Green Lake and whether it is A. S. A. P. Hana. Ml apps HPC with Francis, VD. I was Citrus and video but they also brought more of what I would call a vertical layer and I'm sure you've seen the vertical ization of all of these cloud and as a service workloads. But what they're doing with Epic, with EMR and looseness, with financial payments and Splunk and intel with data and risk analysis and finally, a full stack for telco five G. One of the biggest secrets and I covered this about five years ago is HPV actually has a full stack that Western european carriers use and they're now extending that to five G. And um, so more horizontal, uh, and, and more vertical. That was the one of the big swipes, uh, that I saw that there was a second though, but maybe we can talk about these. >>Yeah. Okay. Okay. So, so the other piece of that of course is standardization right there there because there was a, there was a, there was a lot of customization leading up to this and everybody sort of, everybody always had some kind of financial game they can play and say, hey, there's an adversary as a service model, but this is definitely more of a standardized scalable move that H P E. Is making with what they call Lighthouse. Right? >>Yeah, that's exactly right. And I've talked to some Green Lake customers and they obviously gave it kudos or they wouldn't have HP wouldn't have served them up and they wouldn't have been buying it. But they did say, um, it took, it took a while, took some paperwork to get it going. It's not 100% of push button, but that's partially because hp allows you to customize the hardware. You want a one off network adapter. Hp says yes, right. You want to integrate a different type of storage? They said yes. But with Green Lake Lighthouse, it's more of a, what you see is what you get, which by the way, is very much like the public cloud or you go to a public cloud product sheet or order sheet. You're picking from a list and you really don't know everything that's underneath the covers, aside from, let's say, the speed of the network, the type of the storage and the amount of the storage you get. You do get to pick between, let's say, an intel processor, Graviton two or an M. D processor. You get to pick your own GPU. But that's pretty much it. And HP Lighthouse, sorry, Green Lake Lighthouse uh is bringing, I think a simplification to Green Lake that it needs to truly scale beyond, let's say the White House customers that HP Yeah, >>Well done. So, you know, and I hear your point about we're 10 years in plus. And to me this is like a mandate. I mean, this is okay, good, good job guys about time. But if I had a, you know, sort of look at the big player, it's like we have an oligopoly here in this, in this business. It's HP, Cisco, you got Dell Lenovo, you've got, you know, IBM, they're all doing this and they all have a different little difference, you know, waste of skin of catch. And your point about simplicity, it seems like HP HP is all in antony's like, okay, here's what we're going to announce that, you know, a while ago. So, and they seem to have done a good job with Wall Street and they got a simple model, you know, Dell is obviously bigger portfolio, much more complicated. IBM is even more complicated than that. I don't know so much about Lenovo and in Cisco of course, has acquired a ton of SAAS companies and sort of they've got a lot of bespoke products that they're trying to put together. So they've got, but they do have SAS models. So each of them is coming at it from a different perspective. How do you think? And so and the other point we got lighthouse, which is sort of Phase one, get product market fit. Phase two now is scale, codify standardized and then phase three is the moat build your unique advantage that protects your business. What do you see as HP ES sort of unique value proposition and moat that they can build longer term. >>That's a great, great question. And let me rattle off kind of what I'm seeing that some of these players here, So Cisco, ironically has sells the most software of any of those players that you mentioned, uh with the exception of IBM um and yeah, C I >>CSDB two. Yeah, >>yeah, they're the they're the number two security player, uh Microsoft, number one, So and I think the evaluation on the street uh indicate that shows that I feel like Dell tech is a very broad play because not only do they have servers, storage, networking insecurity, but they also have Pcs and devices. So it's a it's a scale and end play with a focus on VM ware solutions, not exclusively of course. Uh And um then you've got Lenovo who is just getting into the as a service game and are gosh, they're doing great in hyper scale, they've got scale there vertically integrated. I don't know if if too many people talk about that, but Lenovo does a lot of their own manufacturing and they actually manufacture Netapp storage solutions as well. So yeah, each of these folks brings a different game to the table. I think with h P e, what you're bringing the table is nimble. When HP and HP split, the number one thing that I said was that ah, h P E is going to have to be so much faster than it offsets the scale that Dell technology has and the HBs credit, although there, I don't think we're getting credit for this in the stock market yet. Um and I know you and I are both industry folks, not financial folks, but I think their biggest thing is speed and the ability to move faster. And that is what I've seen as it relates to the moat, which is a unique uh competitive advantage. Quite frankly, I'm still looking for that day uh in in in what that is. And I think in this industry it's nearly impossible. And I would posit that that any, even the cloud folks, if you say, is there something that AWS can do that as your can't if it put it put its mind to it or G C P. I don't think so. I think it's more of a kind of land and expand and I think for H P E. When it comes to high performance computing and I'm not just talking about government installations, I'm talking about product development, drug development. I think that is a landing place where H P. E already does pretty well can come in and expand its footprint. >>You know, that's really interesting um, observations. So, and I would agree with you. It's kind of like, this is a copycat industry. It's like the west coast offense like the NFL, >>so, >>so the moat comes from, you know, brand execution and your other point about when HP and HP split, that was a game changer because all of a sudden you saw companies like them, you always had a long term relationship with H P E, but or HP, but then they came out of the woodworks and started to explode. And so it really opened up opportunities. So it really is a execution, isn't it? But go ahead please. >>Dave if I had to pick something that I think HP HPV needs to always be ahead in as a service and listen you and I both know announcements don't mean delivery, but there is correlation between if you start four years ahead of somebody that other company is going to have to put just, I mean they're going to have to turn that ship and many of its competitors really big ships to be able to get there. So I think what Antonio needs to do is run like hell, right? Because it, it I think it is in the lead and as a service holistically doesn't mean they're going to be there forever, but they have to stay ahead. They have to add more horizontal solutions. They have to add more vertical solutions. And I believe that at some point it does need to invest in some Capex at somebody like Anna Quinn X play credit card swiper on top of that. And Dave, you have the public, you have the public cloud, you don't have all the availability zones, but you have a public cloud. >>Yeah, that's going to happen. I think you're right on. So we see this notion of cloud expanding. It's no longer just remote set of services. Somewhere out in the cloud. It's like you said, outpost was the sort of signal. Okay, We're coming on prem. Clearly the on prem uh, guys are connecting to the cloud. Multi cloud exists, we know this and then there's the edge but but but that brings me to that sort of vision and everybody's laying out of this this this seamless integration hiding the complexity log into my cloud and then life will be good. But the edge is different. Right? It's not just, you know, retail store or a race track. I mean there's the far edge, there's the Tesla car, there's gonna be compute everywhere and that sort of ties into the data. The data flows, you know the real time influencing at the edge ai new semiconductor models. You you came out of the semiconductor industry, you know it inside and out arm is exploding, dominating in the edge with apple and amazon Alexa and things like that. That's really where the action is. So this is a really interesting cocktail and soup that we have going on. How do >>you say? Well, you know, Dave if the data most data, I think one thing most everybody agrees on is that most of the data will be created on the edge, whether that's a moving edge a car, a smartphone or what I call an edge data center without tile flooring. Like that server that's bolted to the wall of Mcdonald's. When you drive through, you can see it versus the walmart. Every walmart has a raised tile floor. It's the edge to economically and performance wise, it doesn't make any sense to send all that data to the mother ships. Okay. And whether that's unproven data center or the giant public cloud, more efficient way is to do the compute at the closest way possible. But what it does, it does bring up challenges. The first challenge is security. If I wanted to, I could walk in and I could take that server off the Mcdonald's or the Shell gas station wall. So I can't do that in a big data center. Okay, so security, physical security is a challenge. The second is you don't have the people to go in there and fix stuff that are qualified. If you have a networking problem that goes wrong in Mcdonald's, there's nobody there that can help uh they can they can help you fix that. So this notion of autonomy and management and not keeping hyper critical data sitting out there and it becomes it becomes a security issue becomes a management issue. Let me talk about the benefits though. The benefits are lower latency. You want you want answers more quickly when that car is driving down the road And it has a 5GV 2 x communication cameras can't see around corners. But that car communicating ahead, that ran into the stop sign can, through Vita X talked to the car behind it and say, hey, something is going on there, you can't go to, you can't go to the big data center in the sky, let's make that happen, that is to be in near real time and that computer has to happen on the edge. So I think this is a tremendous opportunity and ironically the classic on prem guys, they own this, they own this space aside from smartphones of course, but if you look at compute on a light pole, companies like Intel have built complete architecture is to do that, putting compute into five G base stations, heck, I just, there was an announcement this week of google cloud and its gaming solution putting compute in a carrier edge to give lower latency to deliver a better experience. >>Yeah, so there, of course there is no one edge, it's highly fragmented, but I'm interested in your thoughts on kinda whose stack actually can play at the edge. And I've been sort of poking uh H P E about this. And the one thing that comes back consistently is Aruba, we we could take a room but not only to the, to the near edge, but to the far edge. And and that, do you see that as a competitive advantage? >>Oh gosh, yes. I mean, I would say the best acquisition That hp has made in 10 years has been aruba, it's fantastic and they also managed it in the right way. I mean it was part of HB but it was, it was managed a lot more loosely then, you know, a company that might get sucked into the board and I think that paid off tremendously. They're giving Cisco on the edge a absolute run for their money, their first with new technologies, but it's about the solution. What I love about what a ruble looks at is it's looking at entertainment solutions inside of a stadium, a information solution inside of an airport as opposed to just pushing the technology forward. And then when you integrate compute with with with Aruba, I think that's where the real magic happens. Most of the data on a permanent basis is actually video data. And a lot of it's for security, uh for surveillance. And quite frankly, people taking videos off, they're off their smartphones and downloaded video. I I just interviewed the chief network officer of T mobile and their number one bit of data is video, video uploaded, video download. But that's where the magic happens when you put that connectivity and the compute together and you can manage it in a, in an orderly and secure fashion. >>Well, I have you we have a ton of time here, but I I don't pick your brain about intel the future of intel. I know you've been following it quite closely, you always have Intel's fighting a forefront war, you got there battling a. M. D. There, battling your arm slash and video. They're they're taking on TSMC now and in foundry and, and I'll add china for the looming threat there. So what's your prognosis for for intel? >>Yeah, I liked bob the previous Ceo and I think he was doing a lot of of the right things, but I really think that customers and investors and even their ecosystem wanted somebody leading the company with a high degree of technical aptitude and Pat coming, I mean, Pat had a great job at VM or, I mean he had a great run there and I think it is a very positive move. I've never seen the energy at Intel. Probably in the last 10 years that I've seen today. I actually got a chance to talk with Pat. I visited Pat uhh last month and and talk to him about pretty much everything and where he wanted to take the company the way you looked at technology, what was important, what's not important. But I think first off in the world of semiconductors, there are no quick fixes. Okay. Intel has a another two years Before we see what the results are. And I think 2023 for them is gonna be a huge year. But even with all this competition though, Dave they still have close to 85% market share in servers and revenue share for client computing around 90%. Okay. So and they built out there networking business, they build out a storage business um with obtain they have the leading Aid as provider with Mobileye. And and listen I was I was one of Intel's biggest, I was into one of Intel's biggest, I was Intel's biggest customer when I was a compact. I was their biggest competitor at A. M. B. So um I'm not obviously not overly pushing or there's just got to wait and see. They're doing the right things. They have the right strategy. They need to execute. One of the most important things That Intel did is extend their alliance with TSMC. So in 2023 we're going to see Intel compute units these tiles they integrate into the larger chips called S. O. C. S. B. Manufactured by TSMC. Not exclusively, but we could see that. So literally we could have AMG three nanometer on TSMC CPU blocks, competing with intel chips with TSMC three nanometer CPU blocks and it's on with regard to video. I mean in video is one of these companies that just keeps going charging, charging hard and I'm actually meeting with Jensen wang this week and Arm Ceo Simon Segers to talk about this opportunity and that's a company that keeps on moving interestingly enough in video. If the Arm deal does go through will be the largest chip license, see CPU licensee and have the largest CPU footprint on on the planet. So here we have A and D. Who's CPU and Gpu and buying an F. P. G. A company called Xilinx, you have Intel, Cpus, Gpus machine learning accelerators and F. P. G. S and then you've got arms slashing video bit with everything as well. We have three massive ecosystems. They're gonna be colliding here and I think it's gonna be great for competition date. Competition is great. You know, when there's not competition in Cpus and Gpus, we know what happens, right. Uh, the B just does not go on and we start to stagnate. And I did, I do feel like the industry on CPU started to stagnate when intel had no competition. So bring it on. This is gonna be great for for enterprises then customers to, and then, oh, by the way, the custom Chip providers, WS has created no less than 15 custom semiconductors started with networking uh, and, and nitro and building out an edge that surrounded the general compute and then it moved to Inferential to for inference trainee um, is about to come out for training Graviton and gravitas to for general purpose CPU and then you've got Apple. So innovation is huge and you know, I love to always make fun of the software is eating the world. I always say yeah but has to run on something. And so I think the combination of semiconductors, software and cloud is just really a magical combination. >>Real quick handicap the video arm acquisition. What what are the odds that that they will be successful? They say it's on track. You've got to 2 to 13 to 1 10 to 1. >>I say 75%. Yes 25%. No China is always the has been the odd odd man out for the last three years. They scuttled the qualcomm NXP deal. You just don't know what china is going to do. I think the Eu with some conditions is gonna let this fly. I think the U. S. Is absolutely going to let this fly. And even though the I. P. Will still stay over in the UK, I think the U. S. Wants to see, wants to see this happen. Japan and Korea. I think we'll allow this china is the odd man out. >>In a word, the future of H. P. E. Is blank >>as a service >>patrick Moorehead. Always a pleasure my friend. Great to see you. Thanks so much for coming back in the cube. >>Yeah, Thanks for having me on. I appreciate that. >>Everybody stay tuned for more great coverage from HP discover 21 this is day Volonte for the cube. The leader and enterprise tech coverage. We'll be right back. >>Mm.

>>Welcome back to HPD discovered 2021. The virtual edition. My name is Dave Volonte and you're watching the cubes continuous coverage of H. P. S. Big customer event. Patrick Moorehead is here of moor insights and strategy is the number one analyst in the research analyst. Business. Patrick. Always a pleasure. Great to see you, >>David. Great to see you too. And I know you're you're up there fighting for that number one spot to. It's great to see you and it's great to see you in the meetings that were in. But it's even more fun to be here on the cube. I love to be on the cube and every once in a while you'll even call me a friend of the cube, >>unquestionably my friend and so and I can't wait second half. I mean you're traveling right now. We're headed to Barcelona to mobile World Congress later on this month. So so we're gonna we're gonna see each other face to face this year. 100%. So looking forward to that. So, you know, let's get into it. Um you know, before we get into H. P. E. Let's talk a little bit about what you're seeing in the market. We've got, you know, we we we finally, it feels like the on prem guys are finally getting their cloud act together. Um, it's maybe taken a while, but we're seeing as a service models emerge. I think it's resonating with customers. The clearly not everything is moving to the cloud. There's this hybrid model emerging. Multi cloud is real despite what, you know, >>some some >>cloud players want to say. And then there's this edges like jump ball, what are you seeing in the marketplace? >>Yeah. Davis, as exciting as ever in. Just to put in perspective, I mean, the public cloud has been around for about 10 years and still only 20%. Around 20% of the data in 20% of the applications are there now, albeit very important ones. And I'm certainly not a public cloud denier, I never have been, but there are some missing pieces that need to come together. And you know, even five years ago we were debating dave the hybrid cloud and I feel like when Amazon brought out outposts, the conversation was over right now, what you have is cloud native folks building out hybrid and on prem capabilities, you have the classic on prem folks building out hybrid and as a service capabilities. And I really think it boils down 22 things. I mean it's wanting to have more flexibility and you know, I hate to use it because it sounds like a marketing word, but agility, the ability to spin up things and spin down things in a very quick way. And uh, you know what they've learned. The veterans also know, hey, let's do this in a way that doesn't lock us in too much into a certain vendor. And I've been around for a long time. David and I'm a realist too. Well, you have to lock yourself into something. It just depends on what do you want to lock yourself into, but super exciting. And what H. P. E. When they threw the acts in the sea with Green Lake, I think it was four years ago, I think really started to stir the pot. >>You know, you mentioned the term cloud denial, but you know, and I feel like the narrative from, I like to determine is I think you should use the term veteran. You know, it's very, they're ours is the only industry patrick where legacy is a pejorative, but but but so but the point I want to make is I feel like there's been a lot of sort of fear from the veteran players, but I look at it differently. I wonder what you're taking. I think, I think, I think I calculated that the Capex spending by the big four public clouds including Alibaba last year was $100 billion. That's like a gift to the world. Here, we're going to spend $100 billion like the internet here you go build. And and so I, and I feel like companies like HP are finally saying, yeah, we're gonna build, we're gonna build a layer and we're gonna hide the complexity and we're gonna add value on top. What do you think about that? >>Yeah. So I think it's now, I wish, I wish the on prem folks like HP, you would have done it 10 years ago, but I don't think anybody expected the cloud to be as big as it's become over the last 10 years. I think we saw companies like salesforce with sas taking off, but I think it is the right direction because there are advantages to having workloads on prem and if you add an as a service capability on top of the top of that, and let's say even do a Coehlo or a managed service, it's pretty close to being similar to the public cloud with the exception, that you can't necessarily swipe a credit card for a bespoke workload if you're a developer and it is a little harder to scale out. But that is the next step in the equation day, which is having, having these folks make capital expenditures, make them in a polo facility and then put a layer to swipe a credit card and you literally have the public cloud. >>Yeah. So that's, that's a great point and that's where it's headed, isn't it? Um, so let's, let's talk about the horses on the track. Hp. As you mentioned, I didn't realize it was four years ago. I thought it was, wow, That's amazing. So everybody's followed suit. You see, Dallas announced, Cisco has announced, uh, Lenovo was announced, I think IBM as well. So we, so everybody started following suit there. The reality is, is it's taken some time to get this stuff standardized. What are you seeing from, from HP? They've made some additional announcements, discover what's your take on all this. >>Yeah. So HPD was definitely the rabbit here and they were first in the market. It was good to see, first off some of their, Um, announcements on, on how it's going. And they talked about 4, $28 billion 1200 customers over 900 partners and 95% retention. And I think that's important anybody who's in the lead and remember what Aws used to do with the slide with the amount of customers would just get bigger and bigger and bigger and that's a good way to show momentum. I like the retention part two which is 95%. And I think that that says a lot uh probably the more important announcements that they made is they talked about the G. A. Of some of their solutions on Green Lake and whether it was S. A. P. Hana Ml apps HPC with Francis V. I was Citrus in video but they also brought more of what I would call a vertical layer and I'm sure you've seen the vertical ization of all of these cloud and as a service workloads. But what they're doing with Epic with EMR and looseness, with financial payments and Splunk and intel with data and risk analysis and finally, a full stack for telco five G. One of the biggest secrets and I covered this about five years ago is HPV actually has a full stack that western european carriers use and they're now extending that to five G. And um, so more horizontal uh and and more vertical. That was the one of the big swipes uh that I saw that there was a second though, but maybe we can talk about these. >>Yeah. Okay, Okay. So, so the other piece of that of course is standardization right there there because there was a, there was, there was a lot of customization leading up to this and everybody sort of, everybody always had some kind of financial game they can play and say, hey, there's an adversary as a service model, but this is definitely more of a standardized scalable move that H P E. Is making with what they call Lighthouse, Right? >>Yeah, that's exactly right. And I've talked to some Green Lake customers and they obviously gave it kudos or they wouldn't have HP wouldn't have served them up and they wouldn't have been buying it. But they did say, um, it took, it took a while, took some paperwork to get it going. It's not 100% of push button, but that's partially because hp allows you to customize the hardware. You want a one off network adapter. Hp says yes, right. You want to integrate a different type of storage? They said yes. But with Green Lake Lighthouse, it's more of a, what you see is what you get, which by the way is very much like the public cloud or you go to a public cloud product sheet or order sheet. You're picking from a list and you really don't know everything that's underneath the covers, aside from, let's say the speed of the network, the type of the storage and the amount of the storage you get. You do get to pick between, let's say, an intel processor, Graviton two or an M. D processor. You get to pick your own GPU. But that's pretty much it. And HP Lighthouse, sorry, Green Lake Lighthouse uh, is bringing, I think a simplification to Green Lake that it needs to truly scale beyond, let's say, the white house customers at HP. Yeah, >>Well done. So, you know, and I hear your point about 10 years in, you know, plus and to me this is like a mandate. I mean, this is okay. Good, good job guys about time. But if I had a, you know, sort of look at the big players, like, can we have an oligopoly here in this, in this business? It's HP, Cisco, you got Dell Lenovo, you've got, you know, IBM, they're all doing this and they all have a different little difference, you know, waste of skin of catch. And your point about simplicity, it seems like HP HP is all in Antonio's like, okay, here's what we're going to announce that, you know, while ago, so, and they seem to have done a good job with Wall Street and they get a simple model, you know, Dell's obviously bigger portfolio, much more complicated. IBM is even more complicated than that. I don't know so much about Lenovo and in Cisco of course, has acquired a ton of SAAS companies and sort of they've got a lot of bespoke products that they're trying to put together, so they've got, but they do have SAS models. So each of them is coming at it from a different perspective. How do you think? And so and the other point we got lighthouse, which is sort of Phase one, get product market fit. Phase two now is scale codify standardized and then phase three is the moat build your unique advantage that protects your business. What do you see as HP? Es sort of unique value proposition and moat that they can build longer term. >>That's a great, great question. And let me rattle off kind of what I'm seeing that some of these these players here. So Cisco, ironically, has sells the most software of any of those players that you mentioned, uh with the exception of IBM. Um, and yeah, C >>ICSDB two. Yeah, >>yeah, they're the they're the number two security player, uh, Microsoft, number one. So and I think the evaluation on the street uh indicate that shows that I feel like uh Deltek is a is a very broad play because not only do they have servers, storage, networking and security, but they also have Pcs and devices, so it's a it's a scale and end play with a focus on VM ware solutions, not exclusively, of course. Uh And um then you've got Lenovo who is just getting into the as a service game and are gosh, they're doing great in hyper scale, they've got scale there vertically integrated. I don't know if if too many people talk about that, but Lenovo does a lot of their own manufacturing and they actually manufacture Netapp storage solutions as well. So yeah, each of these folks brings a different game to the table, I think with h P E, what your bring to the table is nimble. When HP and HP split, the number one thing that I said was that uh huh H P E is going to have to be so much faster than it offsets the scale that Dell technology has and the HBs credit, although there, I don't think we're getting credit for this in the stock market yet. Um, and I know you and I are both industry folks, not financial folks, but I think their biggest thing is speed and the ability to move faster and that is what I've seen as it relates to the moat, which is a unique uh, competitive advantage. Quite frankly, I'm still looking for that day in, in, in what that is and I think in this industry it's nearly impossible and I would posit that that any, even the cloud folks, if you say, is there something that AWS can do that Azure can't, if it put it put its mind to it or G C P. I don't think so. I think it's more of a kind of land and expand and I think for H P E, when it comes to high performance computing and I'm not just talking about government installations, I'm talking about product development, drug development, I think that is a landing place where H P E already does pretty well can come in and expand its footprint, >>you know, that's really interesting um, observations. So, and I would agree with you, it's kind of like, this is a copycat industry, it's like the west coast offense, like the NFL >>and >>so, so the moat comes from, you know, brand execution and your other point about when HP and HP split, that was a game changer, because all of a sudden you saw companies like them, you always had a long term relationship with H P E but or HP, but then they came out of the woodworks and started to explode. And so it really opened up opportunities. So it really >>is an execution, >>isn't it? But go ahead, please >>Dave if I had to pick something that I think HP HPV needs to always be ahead and as a service and listen, you know, I both know announcements don't mean delivery, but there is correlation between if you start four years ahead of somebody that other company is going to have to put just, I mean they're gonna have to turn that ship and many of its competitors really big ships to be able to get there. So I think what Antonio needs to do is run like hell, right, Because it, it, I think it is in the lead and as a service holistically doesn't mean they're going to be there forever, but they have to stay ahead. They have to add more horizontal solutions. They have to add more vertical solutions. And I believe that at some point it does need to invest in some Capex at somebody like ANna Quinn x play credit card swiper on top of that. And Dave, you have the public, you have the public cloud, you don't have all the availability zones, but you have a public cloud. >>Yeah, that's going to happen. I think you're right on. So we see this notion of cloud expanding. It's no longer just remote set of services. Somewhere out in the cloud. It's as you said, outpost was the sort of signal. Okay, We're coming on prem clearly the on prem, uh, guys are connecting to the cloud. Multi cloud exists, we know this and then there's the edge but but but that brings me to that sort of vision and everybody's laying out of this this this seamless integration hiding the complexity log into my cloud and then life will be good. But the edge is different. Right? It's not just, you know, retail store or a race track. I mean there's the far edge, there's the Tesla car, there's gonna be compute everywhere. And that sort of ties into the data. The data flows, you know the real time influencing at the edge ai new semiconductor models. You you came out of the semiconductor industry, you know it inside and out arm is exploding is dominating in the edge with with with apple and amazon Alexa and things like that. That's really where the action is. So this is a really interesting cocktail and soup that we have going on. How do you >>say? Well, you know, Dave if the data most data, I think one thing most everybody agrees on is that most of the data will be created on the edge. Whether that's a moving edge a car, a smartphone or what I call an edge data center without tile flooring. Like that server that's bolted to the wall of Mcdonald's. When you drive through, you can see it versus the walmart. Every walmart has a raised tile floor. It's the edge to economically and performance wise, it doesn't make any sense to send all that data to the mother ships. Okay. And whether that's unproven data center or the giant public cloud, more efficient way is to do the compute at the closest way possible. But what it does, it does bring up challenges. The first challenge is security. If I wanted to, I could walk in and I could take that server off the Mcdonald's or the Shell gas station wall. So I can't do that in a big data center. Okay, so security, Physical security is a challenge. The second is you don't have the people to go in there and fix stuff that are qualified. If you have a networking problem that goes wrong and Mcdonald's, there's nobody there that can help uh, they can they can help you fix that. So this notion of autonomy and management and not keeping hyper critical data sitting out there and it becomes it becomes a security issue becomes a management issue. Let me talk about the benefits though. The benefits are lower latency. You want you want answers more quickly when that car is driving down the road and it has a five G V two X communication cameras can't see around corners, but that car communicating ahead, that ran into the stop sign, can I through vi to X. Talk to the car behind it and say, hey, something is going on there, you can't go to, you can't go to the big data center in the sky to make that happen, that is to be in near real time and that computer has to happen on the edge. So I think this is a tremendous opportunity and ironically the classic on prem guys, they own this, they own this space aside from smartphones of course, but if you look at compute on a light pole, companies like Intel have built Complete architectures to do that, putting compute into 5G base stations. Heck, I just, there was an announcement this week of google cloud in its gaming solution putting compute in a carrier edge to give lower latency to deliver a better experience. >>Yeah, so there, of course there is no one edge, it's highly fragmented, but I'm interested in your thoughts on kind of who's stack actually can play at the edge. And I've been sort of poking uh H P E about this. And the one thing that comes back consistently is Aruba, we we can take a room but not only to the, to the near edge, but to the far edge. And and that, do you see that as a competitive advantage? >>Oh gosh, yes. I mean, I would say the best acquisition That hp has made in 10 years has been aruba it's fantastic. And they also managed it in the right way. I mean, it was part of HB but it was it was managed a lot more loosely then, you know, a company that might get sucked into the board. And I think that paid off tremendously. They're giving Cisco on the edge a absolute run for their money, their first with new technologies. But it's about the solution. What I love about what a ruble looks at is it's looking at entertainment solutions inside of a stadium, um a information solution inside of an airport as opposed to just pushing the technology forward. And then when you integrate compute with with with Aruba, I think that's where the real magic happens. Most of the data on a permanent basis is actually video data. And a lot of it's for security uh for surveillance. And quite frankly, people taking videos off, they're off their smartphones and downloading video. I I just interviewed the chief network officer of T mobile and their number one bit of data is video, video uploaded, video download. But that's where the magic happens when you put that connectivity and the compute together and you can manage it in a, in an orderly and secure fashion >>while I have you, we have a ton of time here, but I I don't pick your brain about intel, the future of intel. I know you've been following it quite closely, you always have Intel's fighting a forefront war. You got there, battling A. M. D. There, battling your arm slash and video. They're they're taking on TSMC now and in foundry and, and I'll add china for the looming threat there. So what's your prognosis for for intel? >>Yeah, I liked bob the previous Ceo and I think he was doing a lot of of the right things, but I really think that customers and investors and even their ecosystem wanted somebody leading the company with a high degree of technical aptitude and Pat coming, I mean, Pat had a great job at VM or, I mean, he had a great run there and I think it is a very positive move. I've never seen the energy At Intel probably in the last 10 years that I've seen today. I actually got a chance to talk with pat. I visited pat uhh last month and and talk to him about pretty much everything and where he wanted to take the company the way you looked at technology, what was important, what's not important. But I think first off in the world of semiconductors, there are no quick fixes. Okay. Intel has a another two years Before we see what the results are. And I think 2023 for them is gonna be a huge year. But even with all this competition though, Dave they still have close to 85% market share in servers and revenue share for client computing around 90%. Okay. So and they've built out there networking business, they build out a storage business um with with obtain they have the leading Aid as provider with Mobileye. And and listen I was I was one of Intel's biggest, I was into one of Intel's biggest, I was Intel's biggest customer when I was a compact. I was their biggest competitor at AMG. So um I'm not obviously not overly pushing or there's just got to wait and see. They're doing the right things. They have the right strategy. They need to execute. One of the most important things That Intel did is extend their alliance with TSMC. So in 2023 we're going to see Intel compute units these tiles, they integrate into the larger chips called S. O. C S B. Manufactured by TSMC. Not exclusively, but we could see that. So literally we could have AMG three nanometer on TSMC CPU blocks, competing with intel chips with TSMC three nanometer CPU blocks and it's on with regard to video. I mean in video is one of these companies that just keeps going charging, charging hard and I'm actually meeting with Jensen wang this week and Arms Ceo Simon Segers to talk about this opportunity and that's a company that keeps on moving interestingly enough in video. If the arm deal does go through will be the largest chip license, see CPU licensee and have the largest CPU footprint on the planet. So here we have AMG who's CPU and Gpu and buying an F. P. G. A company called Xilinx, you have Intel, Cpus, Gpus machine learning accelerators and F. P. G. S. And then you've got arms slashing video bit with everything as well. We have three massive ecosystems. They're gonna be colliding here and I think it's gonna be great for competition. Date. Competition is great. You know, when there's not competition in CPUs and Gpus, we know what happens right. Uh, the beach just does not go on and we start to stagnate. And I did, I do feel like the industry on CPU started to stagnate when intel had no competition. So bring it on. This is gonna be great for for enterprises then customers to and then, oh, by the way, you have the custom Chip providers. WS has created no less than 15 custom semiconductors started with networking and nitro and building out an edge that surrounded the general computer. And then it moved to Inferential for inference trainee um, is about to come out for training Graviton and Gravitas to for general purpose CPU and then you've got apple. So innovation is huge and I love to always make fun of the software is eating the world. I always say yeah but has to run on something. And so I think the combination of semiconductors software and cloud is just really a magical combination. >>Real quick handicap the video arm acquisition. What what are the odds that that they will be successful? They say it's on track. You got a 2 to 13 to 1 10 to 1. >>I say 75%. Yes 25%. No China is always the has been the odd odd man out for the last three years. They scuttled the Qualcomm NXp deal. You just don't know what china is going to do. I think the EU with some conditions is going to let this fly. I think the U. S. Is absolutely going to let this fly. And even though the I. P. Will still stay over in the UK, I think the U. S. Wants to see wants to see this happen, Japan and Korea I think we'll allow this china is the odd man out. >>In a word, the future of h p. E is blank >>as a service >>patrick Moorehead. Always a pleasure. My friend. Great to see you. Thanks so much for coming back in the cube. >>Yeah, Thanks for having me on. I appreciate that. >>Everybody stay tuned for more great coverage from HP discover 21 this is day Volonte for the cube. The leader and enterprise tech coverage. We'll be right back.

(upbeat music) >> Welcome friends to HPE Ezmeral's analytics unleashed. I couldn't be more excited to have you here today. We have a packed and informative agenda. It's going to give you not just a perspective on what HPE Ezmeral is and what it can do for your organization, but you should leave here with some insights and perspectives that will help you on your edge to cloud data journey in general. The lineup we have today is awesome. We have industry experts like Kirk Borne, who's going to talk about the shape this space will take to key customers and partners who are using Ezmeral technology as a fundamental part of their stack to solve really big, hairy, complex real data problems. We will hear from the execs who are leading this effort to understand the strategy and roadmap forward as well as give you a sneak peek into the new ISV ecosystem that is hosted in the Ezmeral marketplace. And finally, we have some live music being played in the form of three different demos. There's going to be a fun time so do jump in and chat with us at any time or engage with us on Twitter in real time. So grab some coffee, buckle up and let's get going. (upbeat music) Getting data right is one of the top priorities for organizations to affect digital strategy. So right now we're going to dig into the challenges customers face when trying to deploy enterprise wide data strategies and with me to unpack this topic is Kirk Borne, principal data scientist, and executive advisor, Booz Allen Hamilton. Kirk, great to see you. Thank you sir, for coming into the program. >> Great to be here, Dave. >> So hey, enterprise scale data science and engineering initiatives, they're non-trivial. What do you see as some of the challenges in scaling data science and data engineering ops? >> The first challenge is just getting it out of the sandbox because so many organizations, they, they say let's do cool things with data, but how do you take it out of that sort of play phase into an operational phase? And so being able to do that is one of the biggest challenges, and then being able to enable that for many different use cases then creates an enormous challenge because do you replicate the technology and the team for each individual use case or can you unify teams and technologies to satisfy all possible use cases. So those are really big challenges for companies organizations everywhere to about. >> What about the idea of, you know, industrializing those those data operations? I mean, what does that, what does that mean to you? Is that a security connotation, a compliance? How do you think about it? >> It's actually, all of those I'm industrialized to me is sort of like, how do you not make it a one-off but you make it a sort of a reproducible, solid risk compliant and so forth system that can be reproduced many different times. And again, using the same infrastructure and the same analytic tools and techniques but for many different use cases. So we don't have to rebuild the wheel, reinvent the wheel re reinvent the car. So to speak every time you need a different type of vehicle you need to build a car or a truck or a race car. There's some fundamental principles that are common to all of those. And that's what that industrialization is. And it includes security compliance with regulations and all those things but it also means just being able to scale it out to to new opportunities beyond the ones that you dreamed of when you first invented the thing. >> Yeah. Data by its very nature as you well know, it's distributed, but for a you've been at this awhile for years we've been trying to sort of shove everything into a monolithic architecture and in in hardening infrastructures or around that. And in many organizations it's become a block to actually getting stuff done. But so how, how are you seeing things like the edge emerge How do you, how do you think about the edge? How do you see that evolving and how do you think customers should be dealing with with edge and edge data? >> Well, that's really kind of interesting. I had many years at NASA working on data systems, and back in those days, the idea was you would just put all the data in a big data center and then individual scientists would retrieve that data and do analytics on it do their analysis on their local computer. And you might say that's sort of like edge analytics so to speak because they're doing analytics at their home computer, but that's not what edge means. It means actually doing the analytics the insights discovery at the point of data collection. And so that's that's really real time business decision-making you don't bring the data back and then try to figure out some time in the future what to do. And I think in autonomous vehicles a good example of why you don't want to do that because if you collect data from all the cameras and radars and lidars that are on a self-driving car and you move that data back to a data cloud while the car is driving down the street and let's say a child walks in front of the car you send all the data back at computes and does some object recognition and pattern detection. And 10 minutes later, it sends a message to the car. Hey, you need to put your brakes off. Well, it's a little kind of late at that point. And so you need to make those discoveries those insight discoveries, those pattern discoveries and hence the proper decisions from the patterns in the data at the point of data collection. And so that's data analytics at the edge. And so, yes, you can ring the data back to a central cloud or distributed cloud. It almost doesn't even matter if, if if your data is distributed sort of any use case in any data scientist or any analytic team and the business can access it then what you really have is a data mesh or a data fabric that makes it accessible at the point that you need it, whether it's at the edge or on some static post event processing, for example typical business quarter reporting takes a long look at your last three months of business. Well, that's fine in that use case, but you can't do that for a lot of other real time analytic decision making. >> Well, that's interesting. I mean, it sounds like you think of the edge not as a place, but as you know where it makes sense to actually, you know the first opportunity, if you will, to process the data at at low latency where it needs to be low latency is that a good way to think about it? >> Yeah, absolutely. It's the low latency that really matters. Sometimes we think we're going to solve that with things like 5G networks. We're going to be able to send data really fast across the wire. But again, that self-driving car has yet another example because what if you, all of a sudden the network drops out you still need to make the right decision with the network not even being . >> That darn speed of light problem. And so you use this term data mesh or data fabric double-click on that. What do you mean by that? >> Well, for me, it's, it's, it's, it's sort of a unified way of thinking about all your data. And when I think of mesh, I think of like a weaving on a loom, or you're creating a blanket or a cloth and you do weaving and you do that all that cross layering of the different threads. And so different use cases in different applications in different techniques can make use of this one fabric no matter what, where it is in the, in the business or again, if it's at the edge or, or back at the office one unified fabric, which has a global namespace. So anyone can access the data they need and sort of uniformly no matter where they're using it. And so it's, it's a way of unifying all of the data and use cases and sort of a virtual environment that it could have that no log you need to worry about. So what's what's the actual file name or what's the actual server this thing is on you can just do that for whatever use case you have. Let's I think it helps you enterprises now to reach a stage which I like to call the self-driving enterprise. Okay. So it's modeled after the self-driving car. So the self-driving enterprise needs the business leaders in the business itself, you would say needs to make decisions oftentimes in real time. All right. And so you need to do sort of predictive modeling and cognitive awareness of the context of what's going on. So all of these different data sources enable you to do all those things with data. And so, for example, any kind of a decision in a business any kind of decision in life, I would say is a prediction. It's you say to yourself if I do this such and such will happen if I do that, this other thing will happen. So a decision is always based upon a prediction about outcomes, and you want to optimize that outcome. So both predictive and prescriptive analytics need to happen in this in this same stream of data and not statically afterwards. And so that's, self-driving enterprises enabled by having access to data wherever you and whenever you need it. And that's what that fabric, that data fabric and data mesh provides for you, at least in my opinion. >> Well, so like carrying that analogy like the self-driving vehicle you're abstracting that complexity away in in this metadata layer that understands whether it's on prem or in the public cloud or across clouds or at the edge where the best places to process that data. What makes sense, does it make sense to move it or not? Ideally, I don't have to. Is that how you're thinking about it is that why we need this notion of a data fabric >> Right. It really abstracts away all the sort of the complexity that the it aspects of the job would require, but not every person in the business is going to have that familiarity with with the servers and the access protocols and all kinds of it related things. And so abstracting that away. And that's in some sense, what containers do basically the containers abstract away all the information about servers and connectivity and protocols and all this kind of thing. You just want to deliver some data to an analytic module that delivers me an insight or a prediction. I don't need to think about all those other things. And so that abstraction really makes it empowering for the entire organization. We like to talk a lot about data democratization and analytics democratization. This really gives power to every person in the organization to do things without becoming an it expert. >> So the last, last question we have time for here. So it sounds like. Kirk, the next 10 years of data are not going to be like the last 10 years, it'd be quite different. >> I think so. I think we're moving to this. Well, first of all, we're going to be focused way more on the why question, like, why are we doing this stuff? The more data we collect, we need to know why we're doing it. And what are the phrases I've seen a lot in the past year which I think is going to grow in importance in the next 10 years is observability. So observability to me is not the same as monitoring. Some people say monitoring is what we do. But what I like to say is, yeah, that's what you do but why you do it is observability. You have to have a strategy. Why, what, why am I collecting this data? Why am I collecting it here? Why am I collecting it at this time resolution? And so, so getting focused on those, why questions create be able to create targeted analytics solutions for all kinds of diff different business problems. And so it really focuses it on small data. So I think the latest Gartner data and analytics trending reports, so we're going to see a lot more focus on small data in the near future >> Kirk borne. You're a dot connector. Thanks so much for coming on the cube and being a part of the program. >> My pleasure (upbeat music) (relaxing upbeat music)

>>As we've been reporting, the pandemic has called CSOs to really shift their spending priorities towards securing remote workers. Almost overnight. Zero trust has gone from buzzword to mandate. What's more as we wrote in our recent cybersecurity breaking analysis, not only Maseca pro secured increasingly distributed workforce, but now they have to be wary of software updates in the digital supply chain, including the very patches designed to protect them against cyber attacks. Hello everyone. And welcome to this Q conversation. My name is Dave Vellante and I'm pleased to welcome Derek manky. Who's chief security insights, and global threat alliances for four guard labs with fresh data from its global threat landscape report. Derek. Welcome. Great to see you. >>Thanks so much for, for the invitation to speak. It's always a pleasure. Multicover yeah, >>You're welcome. So first I wonder if you could explain for the audience, what is for guard labs and what's its relationship to fortunate? >>Right. So 40 grand labs is, is our global sockets, our global threat intelligence operation center. It never sleeps, and this is the beat. Um, you know, it's, it's been here since inception at port in it. So it's it's 20, 21 years in the making, since Fortinet was founded, uh, we have built this in-house, uh, so we don't go yum technology. We built everything from the ground up, including creating our own training programs for our, our analysts. We're following malware, following exploits. We even have a unique program that I created back in 2006 to ethical hacking program. And it's a zero-day research. So we try to meet the hackers, the bad guys to their game. And we of course do that responsibly to work with vendors, to close schools and create virtual patches. Um, and, but, you know, so it's, it's everything from, uh, customer protection first and foremost, to following, uh, the threat landscape and cyber. It's very important to understand who they are, what they're doing, who they're, uh, what they're targeting, what tools are they using? >>Yeah, that's great. Some serious DNA and skills in that group. And it's, it's critical because like you said, you can, you can minimize the spread of those malware very, very quickly. So what, what now you have, uh, the global threat landscape report. We're going to talk about that, but what exactly is that? >>Right? So this a global threat landscape report, it's a summary of, uh, all, all the data that we collect over a period of time. So we released this, that biannually two times a year. Um, cyber crime is changing very fast, as you can imagine. So, uh, while we do release security blogs, and, uh, what we call threat signals for breaking security events, we have a lot of other vehicles to release threat intelligence, but this threat landscape report is truly global. It looks at all of our global data. So we have over 5 million censorship worldwide in 40 guard labs, we're processing. I know it seems like a very large amount, but North of a hundred billion, uh, threat events in just one day. And we have to take the task of taking all of that data and put that onto scale for half a year and compile that into something, um, that is, uh, the, you know, that that's digestible. That's a, a very tough task, as you can imagine, so that, you know, we have to work with a huge technologies back to machine learning and artificial intelligence automation. And of course our analyst view to do that. >>Yeah. So this year, of course, there's like the every year is a battle, but this year was an extra battle. Can you explain what you saw in terms of the hacker dynamics over the past? Let's say 12 months. I know you do this twice a year, but what trends did you see evolving throughout the year and what have you seen with the way that attackers have exploited this expanded attack surface outside of corporate network? >>Yeah, it was quite interesting last year. It certainly was not normal. Like we all say, um, and that was no exception for cybersecurity. You know, if we look at cyber criminals and how they pivoted and adapted to the scrap threat landscape, cyber cyber criminals are always trying to take advantage of the weakest link of the chain. They're trying to always prey off here and ride waves of global trends and themes. We've seen this before in, uh, natural disasters as an example, you know, um, trying to do charity kind of scams and campaigns. And they're usually limited to a region where that incident happened and they usually live about two to three weeks, maybe a month at the most. And then they'll move on to the next to the next trip. That's braking, of course, because COVID is so global and dominant. Um, we saw attacks coming in from, uh, well over 40 different languages as an example, um, in regions all across the world that wasn't lasting two to three weeks and it lasted for the better part of a year. >>And of course, what they're, they're using this as a vehicle, right? Not preying on the fear. They're doing everything from initial lockdown, uh, fishing. We were as COVID-19 movers to, um, uh, lay off notices then to phase one, reopenings all the way up to fast forward to where we are today with vaccine rollover development. So there's always that new flavor and theme that they were rolling out, but because it was so successful for them, they were able to, they didn't have to innovate too much, right. They didn't have to expand and shifted to new to new trends. And themes are really developed on new rats families as an example, or a new sophisticated malware. That was the first half of the year and the second half of the year. Um, of course people started to experience COVID fatigue, right? Um, people started to become, we did a lot of education around this. >>People started to become more aware of this threat. And so, um, cyber criminals have started to, um, as we expected, started to become more sophisticated with their attacks. We saw an expansion in different ransomware families. We saw more of a shift of focus on, on, um, uh, you know, targeting the digital supply chain as an example. And so that, that was, that was really towards Q4. Uh, so it, it was a long lived lead year with success on the Google themes, um, targeting healthcare as an example, a lot of, um, a lot of the organizations that were, you know, really in a vulnerable position, I would say >>So, okay. I want to clarify something because my assumption was that they actually did really increase the sophistication, but it sounds like that was kind of a first half trends. Not only did they have to adapt and not have to, but they adapt it to these new vulnerabilities. Uh, my sense was that when you talk about the digital supply chain, that that was a fairly sophisticated attack. Am I, am I getting that right? That they did their sort of their, their, their increased sophistication in the first half, and then they sort of deployed it, did it, uh, w what actually happened there from your data? >>Well, if we look at, so generally there's two types of attacks that we look at, we look at the, uh, the premeditated sophisticated attacks that can have, um, you know, a lot of ramp up work on their end, a lot of time developing the, the, the, the weaponization phase. So developing, uh, the exploits of the sophisticated malware that they're gonna use for the campaign reconnaissance, understanding the targets, where platforms are developed, um, the blueprinting that DNA of, of, of the supply chain, those take time. Um, in fact years, even if we look back to, um, uh, 10 plus years ago with the Stuxnet attacks, as an example that was on, uh, nuclear centrifuges, um, and that, that had four different zero-day weapons at the time. That was very sophisticated, that took over two years to develop as an example. So some of these can take years of time to develop, but they're, they're, uh, very specific in terms of the targets are going to go after obviously the ROI from their end. >>Uh, the other type of attack that we see is as ongoing, um, these broad, wide sweeping attacks, and the reality for those ones is they don't unfortunately need to be too sophisticated. And those ones were the ones I was talking about that were really just playing on the cool, the deem, and they still do today with the vaccine road and development. Uh, but, but it's really because they're just playing on, on, um, you know, social engineering, um, using, uh, topical themes. And in fact, the weapons they're using these vulnerabilities are from our research data. And this was highlighted actually the first pop landscape before last year, uh, on average were two to three years old. So we're not talking about fresh vulnerabilities. You've got to patch right away. I mean, these are things that should have been patched two years ago, but they're still unfortunately having success with that. >>So you mentioned stuck next Stuxnet as the former sort of example, of one of the types of attacks that you see. And I always felt like that was a watershed moment. One of the most sophisticated, if not the most sophisticated attack that we'd ever seen. When I talk to CSOs about the recent government hack, they, they, they suggest I infer maybe they don't suggest it. I infer that it was of similar sophistication. It was maybe thousands of people working on this for years and years and years. Is that, is that accurate or not necessarily? >>Yeah, there's definitely a, there's definitely some comparisons there. Uh, you know, one of the largest things is, uh, both attacks used digital circuits certificate personation, so they're digitally signed. So, you know, of course that whole technology using cryptography is designed by design, uh, to say that, you know, this piece of software installed in your system, hassles certificate is coming from the source. It's legitimate. Of course, if that's compromised, that's all out of the window. And, um, yeah, this is what we saw in both attacks. In fact, you know, stocks in that they also had digitally designed, uh, certificates that were compromised. So when it gets to that level of students or, uh, sophistication, that means definitely that there's a target that there has been usually months of, of, uh, homework done by cyber criminals, for reconnaissance to be able to weaponize that. >>W w what did you see with respect to ransomware? What were the trends there over the past 12 months? I've heard some data and it's pretty scary, but what did you see? >>Yeah, so we're actually, ransomware is always the thorn in our side, and it's going to continue to be so, um, you know, in fact, uh, ransomware is not a new itself. It was actually first created in 1989, and they demanded ransom payments through snail mail. This was to appeal a box, obviously that, that, that didn't take off. Wasn't a successful on the internet was porn at the time. But if you look at it now, of course, over the last 10 years, really, that's where it ran. The ransomware model has been, uh, you know, lucrative, right? I mean, it's been, um, using, uh, by force encrypting data on systems, so that users had to, if they were forced to pay the ransom because they wanted access to their data back data was the target currency for ransomware. That's shifted now. And that's actually been a big pivotal over the last year or so, because again, before it was this let's cast a wide net, in fact, as many people as we can random, um, and try to see if we can hold some of their data for ransom. >>Some people that data may be valuable, it may not be valuable. Um, and that model still exists. Uh, and we see that, but really the big shift that we saw last year and the threat landscape before it was a shift to targeted rats. So again, the sophistication is starting to rise because they're not just going out to random data. They're going out to data that they know is valuable to large organizations, and they're taking that a step further now. So there's various ransomware families. We saw that have now reverted to extortion and blackmail, right? So they're taking that data, encrypting it and saying, unless you pay us as large sum of money, we're going to release this to the public or sell it to a buyer on the dark web. And of course you can imagine the amount of, um, you know, damages that can happen from that. The other thing we're seeing is, is a target of going to revenue services, right? So if they can cripple networks, it's essentially a denial of service. They know that the company is going to be bleeding, you know, X, millions of dollars a day, so they can demand Y million dollars of ransom payments, and that's effectively what's happening. So it's, again, becoming more targeted, uh, and more sophisticated. And unfortunately the ransom is going up. >>So they go to where the money is. And of course your job is to, it's a lower the ROI for them, a constant challenge. Um, we talked about some of the attack vectors, uh, that you saw this year that, that cyber criminals are targeting. I wonder if, if, you know, given the work from home, if things like IOT devices and cameras and, you know, thermostats, uh, with 75% of the work force at home, is this infrastructure more vulnerable? I guess, of course it is. But what did you see there in terms of attacks on those devices? >>Yeah, so, uh, um, uh, you know, unfortunately the attack surface as we call it, uh, so the amount of target points is expanding. It's not shifting, it's expanding. We still see, um, I saw, I mentioned earlier vulnerabilities from two years ago that are being used in some cases, you know, over the holidays where e-commerce means we saw e-commerce heavily under attack in e-commerce has spikes since last summer, right. It's been a huge amount of traffic increase everybody's shopping from home. And, uh, those vulnerabilities going after a shopping cart, plugins, as an example, are five to six years old. So we still have this theme of old vulnerabilities are still new in a sense being attacked, but we're also now seeing this complication of, yeah, as you said, IOT, uh, B roll out everywhere, the really quick shift to work from home. Uh, we really have to treat this as if you guys, as the, uh, distributed branch model for enterprise, right. >>And it's really now the secure branch. How do we take, um, um, you know, any of these devices on, on those networks and secure them, uh, because yeah, if you look at the, what we highlighted in our landscape report and the top 10 attacks that we're seeing, so hacking attacks hacking in tabs, this is who our IPS triggers. You know, we're seeing attempts to go after IOT devices. Uh, right now they're mostly, uh, favoring, uh, well in terms of targets, um, consumer grade routers. Uh, but they're also looking at, um, uh, DVR devices as an example for, uh, you know, home entertainment systems, uh, network attached storage as well, and IP security cameras, um, some of the newer devices, uh, what, the quote unquote smart devices that are now on, you know, virtual assistance and home networks. Uh, we actually released a predictions piece at the end of last year as well. So this is what we call the new intelligent edge. And that's what I think is we're really going to see this year in terms of what's ahead. Um, cause we always have to look ahead and prepare for that. But yeah, right now, unfortunately, the story is, all of this is still happening. IOT is being targeted. Of course they're being targeted because they're easy targets. Um, it's like for cybercriminals, it's like shooting fish in a barrel. There's not just one, but there's multiple vulnerabilities, security holes associated with these devices, easy entry points into networks. >>I mean, it's, um, I mean, attackers they're, they're highly capable. They're organized, they're well-funded they move fast, they're they're agile, uh, and they follow the money. As we were saying, uh, you, you mentioned, you know, co vaccines and, you know, big pharma healthcare, uh, where >>Did you see advanced, persistent >>Threat groups really targeting? Were there any patterns that emerged in terms of other industry types or organizations being targeted? >>Yeah. So just to be clear again, when we talk about AP teams, um, uh, advanced, specific correct group, the groups themselves they're targeting, these are usually the more sophisticated groups, of course. So going back to that theme, these are usually the target, the, um, the premeditated targeted attacks usually points to nation state. Um, sometimes of course there's overlap. They can be affiliated with cyber crime, cyber crime, uh, uh, groups are typically, um, looking at some other targets for ROI, uh, bio there's there's a blend, right? So as an example, if we're looking at the, uh, apt groups I had last year, absolutely. Number one I would say would be healthcare. Healthcare was one of those, and it's, it's, it's, uh, you know, very unfortunate, but obviously with the shift that was happening at a pop up medical facilities, there's a big, a rush to change networks, uh, for a good cause of course, but with that game, um, you know, uh, security holes and concerns the targets and, and that's what we saw IPT groups targeting was going after those and, and ransomware and the cyber crime shrine followed as well. Right? Because if you can follow, uh, those critical networks and crippled them on from cybercriminals point of view, you can, you can expect them to pay the ransom because they think that they need to buy in order to, um, get those systems back online. Uh, in fact, last year or two, unfortunately we saw the first, um, uh, death that was caused because of a denial of service attack in healthcare, right. Facilities were weren't available because of the cyber attack. Patients had to be diverted and didn't make it on the way. >>All right. Jericho, sufficiently bummed out. So maybe in the time remaining, we can talk about remediation strategies. You know, we know there's no silver bullet in security. Uh, but what approaches are you recommending for organizations? How are you consulting with folks? >>Sure. Yeah. So a couple of things, um, good news is there's a lot that we can do about this, right? And, um, and, and basic measures go a long way. So a couple of things just to get out of the way I call it housekeeping, cyber hygiene, but it's always worth reminding. So when we talk about keeping security patches up to date, we always have to talk about that because that is reality as et cetera, these, these vulnerabilities that are still being successful are five to six years old in some cases, the majority two years old. Um, so being able to do that, manage that from an organization's point of view, really treat the new work from home. I don't like to call it a work from home. So the reality is it's work from anywhere a lot of the times for some people. So really treat that as, as the, um, as a secure branch, uh, methodology, doing things like segmentations on network, secure wifi access, multi-factor authentication is a huge muscle, right? >>So using multi-factor authentication because passwords are dead, um, using things like, uh, XDR. So Xers is a combination of detection and response for end points. This is a mass centralized management thing, right? So, uh, endpoint detection and response, as an example, those are all, uh, you know, good security things. So of course having security inspection, that that's what we do. So good threat intelligence baked into your security solution. That's supported by labs angles. So, uh, that's, uh, you know, uh, antivirus, intrusion prevention, web filtering, sandbox, and so forth, but then it gets that that's the security stack beyond that it gets into the end user, right? Everybody has a responsibility. This is that supply chain. We talked about. The supply chain is, is, is a target for attackers attackers have their own supply chain as well. And we're also part of that supply chain, right? The end users where we're constantly fished for social engineering. So using phishing campaigns against employees to better do training and awareness is always recommended to, um, so that's what we can do, obviously that's, what's recommended to secure, uh, via the endpoints in the secure branch there's things we're also doing in the industry, um, to fight back against that with prime as well. >>Well, I, I want to actually talk about that and talk about ecosystems and collaboration, because while you have competitors, you all want the same thing. You, SecOps teams are like superheroes in my book. I mean, they're trying to save the world from the bad guys. And I remember I was talking to Robert Gates on the cube a couple of years ago, a former defense secretary. And I said, yeah, but don't, we have like the best security people and can't we go on the offensive and weaponize that ourselves. Of course, there's examples of that. Us. Government's pretty good at it, even though they won't admit it. But his answer to me was, yeah, we gotta be careful because we have a lot more to lose than many countries. So I thought that was pretty interesting, but how do you collaborate with whether it's the U S government or other governments or other other competitors even, or your ecosystem? Maybe you could talk about that a little bit. >>Yeah. Th th this is what, this is what makes me tick. I love working with industry. I've actually built programs for 15 years of collaboration in the industry. Um, so, you know, we, we need, I always say we can't win this war alone. You actually hit on this point earlier, you talked about following and trying to disrupt the ROI of cybercriminals. Absolutely. That is our target, right. We're always looking at how we can disrupt their business model. Uh, and, and in order, there's obviously a lot of different ways to do that, right? So a couple of things we do is resiliency. That's what we just talked about increasing the security stack so that they go knocking on someone else's door. But beyond that, uh, it comes down to private, private sector collaborations. So, uh, we, we, uh, co-founder of the cyber threat Alliance in 2014 as an example, this was our fierce competitors coming in to work with us to share intelligence, because like you said, um, competitors in the space, but we need to work together to do the better fight. >>And so this is a Venn diagram. What's compared notes, let's team up, uh, when there's a breaking attack and make sure that we have the intelligence so that we can still remain competitive on the technology stack to gradation the solutions themselves. Uh, but let's, let's level the playing field here because cybercriminals moved out, uh, you know, um, uh, that, that there's no borders and they move with great agility. So, uh, that's one thing we do in the private private sector. Uh, there's also, uh, public private sector relationships, right? So we're working with Interpol as an example, Interfor project gateway, and that's when we find attribution. So it's not just the, what are these people doing like infrastructure, but who, who are they, where are they operating? What, what events tools are they creating? We've actually worked on cases that are led down to, um, uh, warrants and arrests, you know, and in some cases, one case with a $60 million business email compromise fraud scam, the great news is if you look at the industry as a whole, uh, over the last three to four months has been for take downs, a motet net Walker, uh, um, there's also IE Gregor, uh, recently as well too. >>And, and Ian Gregor they're actually going in and arresting the affiliates. So not just the CEO or the King, kind of these organizations, but the people who are distributing the ransomware themselves. And that was a unprecedented step, really important. So you really start to paint a picture of this, again, supply chain, this ecosystem of cyber criminals and how we can hit them, where it hurts on all angles. I've most recently, um, I've been heavily involved with the world economic forum. Uh, so I'm, co-author of a report from last year of the partnership on cyber crime. And, uh, this is really not just the pro uh, private, private sector, but the private and public sector working together. We know a lot about cybercriminals. We can't arrest them. Uh, we can't take servers offline from the data centers, but working together, we can have that whole, you know, that holistic effect. >>Great. Thank you for that, Derek. What if people want, want to go deeper? Uh, I know you guys mentioned that you do blogs, but are there other resources that, that they can tap? Yeah, absolutely. So, >>Uh, everything you can see is on our threat research blog on, uh, so 40 net blog, it's under expired research. We also put out, uh, playbooks, w we're doing blah, this is more for the, um, the heroes as he called them the security operation centers. Uh, we're doing playbooks on the aggressors. And so this is a playbook on the offense, on the offense. What are they up to? How are they doing that? That's on 40 guard.com. Uh, we also release, uh, threat signals there. So, um, we typically release, uh, about 50 of those a year, and those are all, um, our, our insights and views into specific attacks that are now >>Well, Derek Mackie, thanks so much for joining us today. And thanks for the work that you and your teams do. Very important. >>Thanks. It's yeah, it's a pleasure. And, uh, rest assured we will still be there 24 seven, three 65. >>Good to know. Good to know. And thank you for watching everybody. This is Dave Volante for the cube. We'll see you next time.

>>As we've been reporting, the pandemic has called CSOs to really shift their spending priorities towards securing remote workers. Almost overnight. Zero trust has gone from buzzword to mandate. What's more as we wrote in our recent cybersecurity breaking analysis, not only Maseca pro secured increasingly distributed workforce, but now they have to be wary of software updates in the digital supply chain, including the very patches designed to protect them against cyber attacks. Hello everyone. And welcome to this Q conversation. My name is Dave Vellante and I'm pleased to welcome Derek manky. Who's chief security insights, and global threat alliances for four guard labs with fresh data from its global threat landscape report. Derek. Welcome. Great to see you. >>Thanks so much for, for the invitation to speak. It's always a pleasure. Multicover yeah, >>You're welcome. So first I wonder if you could explain for the audience, what is for guard labs and what's its relationship to fortunate? >>Right. So 40 grand labs is, is our global sockets, our global threat intelligence operation center. It never sleeps, and this is the beat. Um, you know, it's, it's been here since inception at port in it. So it's it's 20, 21 years in the making, since Fortinet was founded, uh, we have built this in-house, uh, so we don't go yum technology. We built everything from the ground up, including creating our own training programs for our, our analysts. We're following malware, following exploits. We even have a unique program that I created back in 2006 to ethical hacking program. And it's a zero-day research. So we try to meet the hackers, the bad guys to their game. And we of course do that responsibly to work with vendors, to close schools and create virtual patches. Um, and, but, you know, so it's, it's everything from, uh, customer protection first and foremost, to following, uh, the threat landscape and cyber. It's very important to understand who they are, what they're doing, who they're, uh, what they're targeting, what tools are they using? >>Yeah, that's great. Some serious DNA and skills in that group. And it's, it's critical because like you said, you can, you can minimize the spread of those malware very, very quickly. So what, what now you have, uh, the global threat landscape report. We're going to talk about that, but what exactly is that? >>Right? So this a global threat landscape report, it's a summary of, uh, all, all the data that we collect over a period of time. So we released this, that biannually two times a year. Um, cyber crime is changing very fast, as you can imagine. So, uh, while we do release security blogs, and, uh, what we call threat signals for breaking security events, we have a lot of other vehicles to release threat intelligence, but this threat landscape report is truly global. It looks at all of our global data. So we have over 5 million censorship worldwide in 40 guard labs, we're processing. I know it seems like a very large amount, but North of a hundred billion, uh, threat events in just one day. And we have to take the task of taking all of that data and put that onto scale for half a year and compile that into something, um, that is, uh, the, you know, that that's digestible. That's a, a very tough task, as you can imagine, so that, you know, we have to work with a huge technologies back to machine learning and artificial intelligence automation. And of course our analyst view to do that. >>Yeah. So this year, of course, there's like the every year is a battle, but this year was an extra battle. Can you explain what you saw in terms of the hacker dynamics over the past? Let's say 12 months. I know you do this twice a year, but what trends did you see evolving throughout the year and what have you seen with the way that attackers have exploited this expanded attack surface outside of corporate network? >>Yeah, it was quite interesting last year. It certainly was not normal. Like we all say, um, and that was no exception for cybersecurity. You know, if we look at cyber criminals and how they pivoted and adapted to the scrap threat landscape, cyber cyber criminals are always trying to take advantage of the weakest link of the chain. They're trying to always prey off here and ride waves of global trends and themes. We've seen this before in, uh, natural disasters as an example, you know, um, trying to do charity kind of scams and campaigns. And they're usually limited to a region where that incident happened and they usually live about two to three weeks, maybe a month at the most. And then they'll move on to the next to the next trip. That's braking, of course, because COVID is so global and dominant. Um, we saw attacks coming in from, uh, well over 40 different languages as an example, um, in regions all across the world that wasn't lasting two to three weeks and it lasted for the better part of a year. >>And of course, what they're, they're using this as a vehicle, right? Not preying on the fear. They're doing everything from initial lockdown, uh, fishing. We were as COVID-19 movers to, um, uh, lay off notices then to phase one, reopenings all the way up to fast forward to where we are today with vaccine rollover development. So there's always that new flavor and theme that they were rolling out, but because it was so successful for them, they were able to, they didn't have to innovate too much, right. They didn't have to expand and shifted to new to new trends. And themes are really developed on new rats families as an example, or a new sophisticated malware. That was the first half of the year and the second half of the year. Um, of course people started to experience COVID fatigue, right? Um, people started to become, we did a lot of education around this. >>People started to become more aware of this threat. And so, um, cyber criminals have started to, um, as we expected, started to become more sophisticated with their attacks. We saw an expansion in different ransomware families. We saw more of a shift of focus on, on, um, uh, you know, targeting the digital supply chain as an example. And so that, that was, that was really towards Q4. Uh, so it, it was a long lived lead year with success on the Google themes, um, targeting healthcare as an example, a lot of, um, a lot of the organizations that were, you know, really in a vulnerable position, I would say >>So, okay. I want to clarify something because my assumption was that they actually did really increase the sophistication, but it sounds like that was kind of a first half trends. Not only did they have to adapt and not have to, but they adapt it to these new vulnerabilities. Uh, my sense was that when you talk about the digital supply chain, that that was a fairly sophisticated attack. Am I, am I getting that right? That they did their sort of their, their, their increased sophistication in the first half, and then they sort of deployed it, did it, uh, w what actually happened there from your data? >>Well, if we look at, so generally there's two types of attacks that we look at, we look at the, uh, the premeditated sophisticated attacks that can have, um, you know, a lot of ramp up work on their end, a lot of time developing the, the, the, the weaponization phase. So developing, uh, the exploits of the sophisticated malware that they're gonna use for the campaign reconnaissance, understanding the targets, where platforms are developed, um, the blueprinting that DNA of, of, of the supply chain, those take time. Um, in fact years, even if we look back to, um, uh, 10 plus years ago with the Stuxnet attacks, as an example that was on, uh, nuclear centrifuges, um, and that, that had four different zero-day weapons at the time. That was very sophisticated, that took over two years to develop as an example. So some of these can take years of time to develop, but they're, they're, uh, very specific in terms of the targets are going to go after obviously the ROI from their end. >>Uh, the other type of attack that we see is as ongoing, um, these broad, wide sweeping attacks, and the reality for those ones is they don't unfortunately need to be too sophisticated. And those ones were the ones I was talking about that were really just playing on the cool, the deem, and they still do today with the vaccine road and development. Uh, but, but it's really because they're just playing on, on, um, you know, social engineering, um, using, uh, topical themes. And in fact, the weapons they're using these vulnerabilities are from our research data. And this was highlighted actually the first pop landscape before last year, uh, on average were two to three years old. So we're not talking about fresh vulnerabilities. You've got to patch right away. I mean, these are things that should have been patched two years ago, but they're still unfortunately having success with that. >>So you mentioned stuck next Stuxnet as the former sort of example, of one of the types of attacks that you see. And I always felt like that was a watershed moment. One of the most sophisticated, if not the most sophisticated attack that we'd ever seen. When I talk to CSOs about the recent government hack, they, they, they suggest I infer maybe they don't suggest it. I infer that it was of similar sophistication. It was maybe thousands of people working on this for years and years and years. Is that, is that accurate or not necessarily? >>Yeah, there's definitely a, there's definitely some comparisons there. Uh, you know, one of the largest things is, uh, both attacks used digital circuits certificate personation, so they're digitally signed. So, you know, of course that whole technology using cryptography is designed by design, uh, to say that, you know, this piece of software installed in your system, hassles certificate is coming from the source. It's legitimate. Of course, if that's compromised, that's all out of the window. And, um, yeah, this is what we saw in both attacks. In fact, you know, stocks in that they also had digitally designed, uh, certificates that were compromised. So when it gets to that level of students or, uh, sophistication, that means definitely that there's a target that there has been usually months of, of, uh, homework done by cyber criminals, for reconnaissance to be able to weaponize that. >>W w what did you see with respect to ransomware? What were the trends there over the past 12 months? I've heard some data and it's pretty scary, but what did you see? >>Yeah, so we're actually, ransomware is always the thorn in our side, and it's going to continue to be so, um, you know, in fact, uh, ransomware is not a new itself. It was actually first created in 1989, and they demanded ransom payments through snail mail. This was to appeal a box, obviously that, that, that didn't take off. Wasn't a successful on the internet was porn at the time. But if you look at it now, of course, over the last 10 years, really, that's where it ran. The ransomware model has been, uh, you know, lucrative, right? I mean, it's been, um, using, uh, by force encrypting data on systems, so that users had to, if they were forced to pay the ransom because they wanted access to their data back data was the target currency for ransomware. That's shifted now. And that's actually been a big pivotal over the last year or so, because again, before it was this let's cast a wide net, in fact, as many people as we can random, um, and try to see if we can hold some of their data for ransom. >>Some people that data may be valuable, it may not be valuable. Um, and that model still exists. Uh, and we see that, but really the big shift that we saw last year and the threat landscape before it was a shift to targeted rats. So again, the sophistication is starting to rise because they're not just going out to random data. They're going out to data that they know is valuable to large organizations, and they're taking that a step further now. So there's various ransomware families. We saw that have now reverted to extortion and blackmail, right? So they're taking that data, encrypting it and saying, unless you pay us as large sum of money, we're going to release this to the public or sell it to a buyer on the dark web. And of course you can imagine the amount of, um, you know, damages that can happen from that. The other thing we're seeing is, is a target of going to revenue services, right? So if they can cripple networks, it's essentially a denial of service. They know that the company is going to be bleeding, you know, X, millions of dollars a day, so they can demand Y million dollars of ransom payments, and that's effectively what's happening. So it's, again, becoming more targeted, uh, and more sophisticated. And unfortunately the ransom is going up. >>So they go to where the money is. And of course your job is to, it's a lower the ROI for them, a constant challenge. Um, we talked about some of the attack vectors, uh, that you saw this year that, that cyber criminals are targeting. I wonder if, if, you know, given the work from home, if things like IOT devices and cameras and, you know, thermostats, uh, with 75% of the work force at home, is this infrastructure more vulnerable? I guess, of course it is. But what did you see there in terms of attacks on those devices? >>Yeah, so, uh, um, uh, you know, unfortunately the attack surface as we call it, uh, so the amount of target points is expanding. It's not shifting, it's expanding. We still see, um, I saw, I mentioned earlier vulnerabilities from two years ago that are being used in some cases, you know, over the holidays where e-commerce means we saw e-commerce heavily under attack in e-commerce has spikes since last summer, right. It's been a huge amount of traffic increase everybody's shopping from home. And, uh, those vulnerabilities going after a shopping cart, plugins, as an example, are five to six years old. So we still have this theme of old vulnerabilities are still new in a sense being attacked, but we're also now seeing this complication of, yeah, as you said, IOT, uh, B roll out everywhere, the really quick shift to work from home. Uh, we really have to treat this as if you guys, as the, uh, distributed branch model for enterprise, right. >>And it's really now the secure branch. How do we take, um, um, you know, any of these devices on, on those networks and secure them, uh, because yeah, if you look at the, what we highlighted in our landscape report and the top 10 attacks that we're seeing, so hacking attacks hacking in tabs, this is who our IPS triggers. You know, we're seeing attempts to go after IOT devices. Uh, right now they're mostly, uh, favoring, uh, well in terms of targets, um, consumer grade routers. Uh, but they're also looking at, um, uh, DVR devices as an example for, uh, you know, home entertainment systems, uh, network attached storage as well, and IP security cameras, um, some of the newer devices, uh, what, the quote unquote smart devices that are now on, you know, virtual assistance and home networks. Uh, we actually released a predictions piece at the end of last year as well. So this is what we call the new intelligent edge. And that's what I think is we're really going to see this year in terms of what's ahead. Um, cause we always have to look ahead and prepare for that. But yeah, right now, unfortunately, the story is, all of this is still happening. IOT is being targeted. Of course they're being targeted because they're easy targets. Um, it's like for cybercriminals, it's like shooting fish in a barrel. There's not just one, but there's multiple vulnerabilities, security holes associated with these devices, easy entry points into networks. >>I mean, it's, um, I mean, attackers they're, they're highly capable. They're organized, they're well-funded they move fast, they're they're agile, uh, and they follow the money. As we were saying, uh, you, you mentioned, you know, co vaccines and, you know, big pharma healthcare, uh, where >>Did you see advanced, persistent >>Threat groups really targeting? Were there any patterns that emerged in terms of other industry types or organizations being targeted? >>Yeah. So just to be clear again, when we talk about AP teams, um, uh, advanced, specific correct group, the groups themselves they're targeting, these are usually the more sophisticated groups, of course. So going back to that theme, these are usually the target, the, um, the premeditated targeted attacks usually points to nation state. Um, sometimes of course there's overlap. They can be affiliated with cyber crime, cyber crime, uh, uh, groups are typically, um, looking at some other targets for ROI, uh, bio there's there's a blend, right? So as an example, if we're looking at the, uh, apt groups I had last year, absolutely. Number one I would say would be healthcare. Healthcare was one of those, and it's, it's, it's, uh, you know, very unfortunate, but obviously with the shift that was happening at a pop up medical facilities, there's a big, a rush to change networks, uh, for a good cause of course, but with that game, um, you know, uh, security holes and concerns the targets and, and that's what we saw IPT groups targeting was going after those and, and ransomware and the cyber crime shrine followed as well. Right? Because if you can follow, uh, those critical networks and crippled them on from cybercriminals point of view, you can, you can expect them to pay the ransom because they think that they need to buy in order to, um, get those systems back online. Uh, in fact, last year or two, unfortunately we saw the first, um, uh, death that was caused because of a denial of service attack in healthcare, right. Facilities were weren't available because of the cyber attack. Patients had to be diverted and didn't make it on the way. >>All right. Jericho, sufficiently bummed out. So maybe in the time remaining, we can talk about remediation strategies. You know, we know there's no silver bullet in security. Uh, but what approaches are you recommending for organizations? How are you consulting with folks? >>Sure. Yeah. So a couple of things, um, good news is there's a lot that we can do about this, right? And, um, and, and basic measures go a long way. So a couple of things just to get out of the way I call it housekeeping, cyber hygiene, but it's always worth reminding. So when we talk about keeping security patches up to date, we always have to talk about that because that is reality as et cetera, these, these vulnerabilities that are still being successful are five to six years old in some cases, the majority two years old. Um, so being able to do that, manage that from an organization's point of view, really treat the new work from home. I don't like to call it a work from home. So the reality is it's work from anywhere a lot of the times for some people. So really treat that as, as the, um, as a secure branch, uh, methodology, doing things like segmentations on network, secure wifi access, multi-factor authentication is a huge muscle, right? >>So using multi-factor authentication because passwords are dead, um, using things like, uh, XDR. So Xers is a combination of detection and response for end points. This is a mass centralized management thing, right? So, uh, endpoint detection and response, as an example, those are all, uh, you know, good security things. So of course having security inspection, that that's what we do. So good threat intelligence baked into your security solution. That's supported by labs angles. So, uh, that's, uh, you know, uh, antivirus, intrusion prevention, web filtering, sandbox, and so forth, but then it gets that that's the security stack beyond that it gets into the end user, right? Everybody has a responsibility. This is that supply chain. We talked about. The supply chain is, is, is a target for attackers attackers have their own supply chain as well. And we're also part of that supply chain, right? The end users where we're constantly fished for social engineering. So using phishing campaigns against employees to better do training and awareness is always recommended to, um, so that's what we can do, obviously that's, what's recommended to secure, uh, via the endpoints in the secure branch there's things we're also doing in the industry, um, to fight back against that with prime as well. >>Well, I, I want to actually talk about that and talk about ecosystems and collaboration, because while you have competitors, you all want the same thing. You, SecOps teams are like superheroes in my book. I mean, they're trying to save the world from the bad guys. And I remember I was talking to Robert Gates on the cube a couple of years ago, a former defense secretary. And I said, yeah, but don't, we have like the best security people and can't we go on the offensive and weaponize that ourselves. Of course, there's examples of that. Us. Government's pretty good at it, even though they won't admit it. But his answer to me was, yeah, we gotta be careful because we have a lot more to lose than many countries. So I thought that was pretty interesting, but how do you collaborate with whether it's the U S government or other governments or other other competitors even, or your ecosystem? Maybe you could talk about that a little bit. >>Yeah. Th th this is what, this is what makes me tick. I love working with industry. I've actually built programs for 15 years of collaboration in the industry. Um, so, you know, we, we need, I always say we can't win this war alone. You actually hit on this point earlier, you talked about following and trying to disrupt the ROI of cybercriminals. Absolutely. That is our target, right. We're always looking at how we can disrupt their business model. Uh, and, and in order, there's obviously a lot of different ways to do that, right? So a couple of things we do is resiliency. That's what we just talked about increasing the security stack so that they go knocking on someone else's door. But beyond that, uh, it comes down to private, private sector collaborations. So, uh, we, we, uh, co-founder of the cyber threat Alliance in 2014 as an example, this was our fierce competitors coming in to work with us to share intelligence, because like you said, um, competitors in the space, but we need to work together to do the better fight. >>And so this is a Venn diagram. What's compared notes, let's team up, uh, when there's a breaking attack and make sure that we have the intelligence so that we can still remain competitive on the technology stack to gradation the solutions themselves. Uh, but let's, let's level the playing field here because cybercriminals moved out, uh, you know, um, uh, that, that there's no borders and they move with great agility. So, uh, that's one thing we do in the private private sector. Uh, there's also, uh, public private sector relationships, right? So we're working with Interpol as an example, Interfor project gateway, and that's when we find attribution. So it's not just the, what are these people doing like infrastructure, but who, who are they, where are they operating? What, what events tools are they creating? We've actually worked on cases that are led down to, um, uh, warrants and arrests, you know, and in some cases, one case with a $60 million business email compromise fraud scam, the great news is if you look at the industry as a whole, uh, over the last three to four months has been for take downs, a motet net Walker, uh, um, there's also IE Gregor, uh, recently as well too. >>And, and Ian Gregor they're actually going in and arresting the affiliates. So not just the CEO or the King, kind of these organizations, but the people who are distributing the ransomware themselves. And that was a unprecedented step, really important. So you really start to paint a picture of this, again, supply chain, this ecosystem of cyber criminals and how we can hit them, where it hurts on all angles. I've most recently, um, I've been heavily involved with the world economic forum. Uh, so I'm, co-author of a report from last year of the partnership on cyber crime. And, uh, this is really not just the pro uh, private, private sector, but the private and public sector working together. We know a lot about cybercriminals. We can't arrest them. Uh, we can't take servers offline from the data centers, but working together, we can have that whole, you know, that holistic effect. >>Great. Thank you for that, Derek. What if people want, want to go deeper? Uh, I know you guys mentioned that you do blogs, but are there other resources that, that they can tap? Yeah, absolutely. So, >>Uh, everything you can see is on our threat research blog on, uh, so 40 net blog, it's under expired research. We also put out, uh, playbooks, w we're doing blah, this is more for the, um, the heroes as he called them the security operation centers. Uh, we're doing playbooks on the aggressors. And so this is a playbook on the offense, on the offense. What are they up to? How are they doing that? That's on 40 guard.com. Uh, we also release, uh, threat signals there. So, um, we typically release, uh, about 50 of those a year, and those are all, um, our, our insights and views into specific attacks that are now >>Well, Derek Mackie, thanks so much for joining us today. And thanks for the work that you and your teams do. Very important. >>Thanks. It's yeah, it's a pleasure. And, uh, rest assured we will still be there 24 seven, three 65. >>Good to know. Good to know. And thank you for watching everybody. This is Dave Volante for the cube. We'll see you next time.

>>Yeah. >>Welcome back for our last session of the day how to deliver career making business outcomes with Search and AI. So we're very lucky to be hearing from Canada. Canadian Tire, one of Canada's largest and most successful retailers, have been powered 4.5 1000 employees to maximize the value of data with self service insights. So today we're joining us. We have Yarrow Baturin, who is the manager of Merch analytics and planning to support at Canadian Tire and then also Andrea Frisk, who is the engagement manager manager for thoughts. What s O U R Andrea? Thanks so much for being here. And with >>that, >>I'll pass the mic to you guys. >>Thank you for having us. Um, already, I I think I'll start with an introduction off who I am, what I do. A Canadian entire on what Canadian pair is all about. So, as a manager of Merch analytics at Canadian Tire, I support merchant organization with reporting tools, and then be I platform to enable decision making on a day to day basis. What is? Canadian Tire's Canadian tire is one of the largest retailers in Canada. Um, serving Canadians with a number of lines of business spanning automotive fixing, living, playing and SNG departments. We have a number of banners, including sport check Marks Party City Phl that covers more than 1700 locations. So as an organization, we've got vast variety of different data, whether it's product or loyalty. Now, as the time goes on, the number of asks the number off data points. The complexity of the analysis has been increasing on banned traditional tools. Analytical tools such as Excel Microsoft Access do find job but start hitting their limitations. So we started on the journey of exploring what other B I platforms would be suitable for our needs. And the criteria that we thought about as we started on that journey is to make sure that we enable customization as well as the McCarthy ization of data. What does that mean? That means we wanted to ensure that each one of the end users have ability to create their own versions off the report while having consistency from the data standpoint, we also wanted Thio ensure that they're able to create there at hawks search queries and draw insights based on the desired business needs. As each one of our lines of business as each one of our departments is quite unique in their nature. And this is where thoughts about comes into play. Um, you checked off all the boxes? Um, as current customers, as potential customers, you will discover that this is the tool that allows that at hawks search ability within a matter of seconds and ability to visualize the information and create those curated pin boards for each one of the business units, depending on what the needs are. And now where? I guess well, Andrea will talk a little bit more about how we gained adoption, but the usage was like and how we, uh, implemented the tool successfully in the organization. >>Okay, so I actually used to work for Canadian tire on DSO. During that time, I helped Thio build training and engaging users to sort of really kick start our use cases. Andi, the ongoing process of adopting thought spot through Canadian Tire s 01 of the sort of reasons that we moved into using thought spot was there was a need Thio evolve, um, in order to see the wealth of data that we had coming in. So the existing reporting again. And this is this sort of standard thoughts bought fix is, um, it brings the data toe. Everyone on git makes it more accessible, so you get more out of your data. So we want to provide users with the ability to customize what they could see and personalized three information so that they could get their specific business requirements out of the data rather than relying on the weekly monthly quarterly reporting. That was all usually fairly generic eso without the ability to deep dive in. So this gave the users the agility thio optimize their campaigns, optimize product murder, urgency where products are or where there's maybe supply chain gaps. Andi just really bring this out for trillions of rose to become accessible. Thio the Canadian tire. That's what user base think. That's the slide. >>That's the slight, Um So as Andrea talked about the business use of the particular tool, let's talk a little bit about how we set it up and a wonderful journey of how it's evolved. So we first implemented 5.3 version of that spot on the Falcon server on we've been adding horsepower to it over time. Now mhm. What I want to stress is the importance off the very first, Data said. That goes into the tool toe. Actually engage the users and to gain the adoption and to make sure there is no argument whether the tool is accurate or not. So what we've started with is a key p I marked layer with all the major metrics that we have and all the available permutations and combinations off the dimensions, whether it's a calendar dimension, proud of dimension or, let's say, customer attribute now, as we started with that data set, we wanted to make sure that we're we have the ability to add and the dimensions right. So now, as we're implementing the tool, we're starting to add in more dimension tables to satisfy the needs off our clients if you want to call it that way as they want to evolve their analytics. So we started adding in some of the store attributes we started adding in some of the product attributes on when I refer to a product attributes, let's say, uh, it involves costs and involves prices involved in some of the strategic internal pieces that we're thinking about now as the comprehensive mark contains right now, in our instance, close to five billion records. This is where it becomes the one source of truth for people declaring information against right so as they go in, we also wanted to make sure when they Corey thought spot there, we're really Onley. According one source of data. One source of truth. It became apparent over time, obviously, that more metrics are needed. They might not be all set up in that particular mark. And that's when we went on the journey off implementing some of the new worksheets or some of the new data sets particularly focused on the four looking pieces. And uh, that's where it becomes important to say This is how you gain the interest and keep the interests of the public right. So you're not just implementing a number off data sets all at once and then letting the users be you're implementing pieces and stages. You're keeping the interest thio, the tool relevant. You're keeping, um, the needs of the public in mind. Now, as you can imagine on the Falcon server piece, um, adding in the horsepower capacity might become challenging the mawr. Billions of Rosie erratic eso were actually in the middle of transitioning our environment to azure in snowflake so that we can connect it. Thio embrace capability of thoughts cloud. And that's where I'm looking forward to that in 2021 I truly believe this will enable us Thio increase the speed off adoption Increase the speed of getting insights out of the tool and scale with regards Thio new data sets that we're thinking about implementing as we're continuing our thoughts about journey >>Okay, so how we drove adoption Thio 4500 plus users eso When we first started Thio approach our use case with the merchants within Canadian Tire We had meetings with these users with who are used place is gonna be with and sort of found out. What are they searching for, Where they typically looking at what existing reports are available for them. Andi kind of sought out to like, What are those things where you're pulling this on your own or someone else's pulling this data because it's not accessible yet And we really use that as our foundation to determine one what data we needed to initially bring into the system but also to sort of create those launchpad pin boards that had the base information that the users we're gonna need so that we could twofold, make it easy for them, toe adopt into the tool and also quickly start Thio, deactivate or discontinue those reports. And just like these air now only available in thought spot because with the sort of formatting within thought spot around dates, it's really easy to make this year's report last year report etcetera. Just have everything roll over every month or a recorder s. So that was kind of some of the pre work foundation when we originally did it. But really, it's been a lot of training, a lot of training. So we conducted ah, lot of in person training, obviously pre co vid eso. We've started to train the group that we targeted, which was the merchants and all of the like, surrounding support groups. Eso we had planners going in and training as well, so that everyone who was really closely connected to the merchants I had an idea of what thoughts about what was and how to use it and where the reports were, and so we just sort of rolled it out that way, and then it started to fly like wildfire. Eso the merchants start to engage with supply chain to have conversations, or the merchants were engaging with the vendors to sort of have negotiations about pricing. And they're creating these reports and getting the access to the information so quickly, and they're sharing it out that we had other groups just coming to us asking, How do I get into thoughts about how can I get in on DSO on top of those groups, we also sought out other heavy analytics groups such a supply chain where we felt like they could have the same benefits if they on boarded into thought spot with their data as well on Ben. Just continuing to evolve the training roll out. Um, you know, we continued to engage with the users, >>so >>we had a newsletter briefly Thio, sort of just keep informing users of the new data coming in or when we actually upgraded our system. So the here are the new features that you'll start seeing. We did virtual trainings and maintaining an F A Q document with the incoming questions from the users, and then eventually evolved into a self guided learning so that users that were coming to a group, or maybe we've already done a full rollout could come in and have the opportunity to learn how to use thought spot, have examples that were relevant to the business and really get started. Eso then each use case sort of after our initial started to build into a formula of the things that we needed to have. So you need to understand it. Having SMEs ready and having the database Onda worksheets built out sort of became the step by step path to drive adoption. Um, from an implementation timeline, I think they're saying, Took about two months and about half of that waas Kenny entire figuring out how figuring out our security, how to get the data in on, Do we need the time to set up the environment and get on Falcon? So then, after that initial two months, then each use case that we come through. Generally, we've got users trained and SMEs set up within about 2 to 3 weeks after the data is ingested. It's not obviously, once snowflakes set up on the data starts to get into that and the data feeds in, then you're really just looking at the 2 to 3 weeks because the data is easily connected in, >>um, no. All right, let's talk about some of the use cases. So we started with what data we've implemented. Andrea touched upon what Use a training look like what the back curate that piece wants. Now let's talk a little bit about use cases and how we actually leverage thoughts bought together the insights. So the very first one is ultimately the benefit of the tool to the entire organization. Israel Time insights. To reiterate what Andrea said, we first implemented the tool with our buyers. They're the nucleus of any retail organization as they work with everybody within the company and as the buyer's eyes, Their responsibility to ensure both the procurement and the sales channel, um, stays afloat at the end of the day, right? So they need information on a regular basis. They needed fast. They needed timely, and they needed in a fashion that they choose to digest it. It right? Not every business is the same. Not every individual is the same. They consume digest, analyze information differently. And that's what that's what allows you to dio whether it's the search, whether it's a customized onboard, please now supply chain unexpected things. As Andrea mentioned Irish work a lot of supply chain. What is the goal of supply chain to receive product and to be able to ship that product to the stores Now, as our organization has been growing and is doing extremely well, we've actually published Q three results recently. Um, the aspect off prioritization at D C level becomes very important, And what drives some of that prioritization is the analysis around what the upcoming sales would be for specific products for specific categories. And that's where again thoughts. But is one of the tools that we've utilized recently to set our prioritization logic from both inbound and outbound us. It's right because it gives you most recent results. It gives you most granular results, depending on the business problem that you're trying to tackle. Now let's chat a little bit about covert 19 response, because this one is an extremely interesting case as a pandemic hit back in March. Um, as you can imagine, the everyday life a Canadian entire became as business unusual is our executives referred to it under business unusual. This speed and the intensity of the insights and the analytics has grown exponentially. And the speed and the intensity of the insights is driven by the fact that we were trying Thio ensure that we have the right selection of products for our Canadian customers because that's ultimately bread and butter off all of the retailers is the customers, right? So thoughts bought allowed us to have early trends off both sales and inventory patterns, where, whether we were stalking out of some of the products in specific stories of provinces, whether we saw some of the upload off different lines of business, depending on the region, ality right as pandemic hit, for example, um, gym's closed restaurants closed. So as Canadian pack carries a wide variety of different lines of business, we actually offer a wide selection of exercise equipment and accessories, cycling products as well as the kitchen appliances and kitchen accessories pieces. Right? So all of those items started growing exponentially and in certain areas more than others. And this is where thoughts about comes into play. A typical analysis on what the region ality of the sales has been over the last couple of days, which is lifetime and pandemic terms, um, could have taken days weeks for analysts to ultimately cobbled together an Excel spreadsheet. Meanwhile, it can take a couple of seconds for 12 Korean tosspot set up a PIN board that can be shared through a wide variety of individuals rather than fording that one Excel spreadsheet that gets manipulated every single time. And then you don't get the right inside. So from again merch supply chain covert response aspect of things. That spot has been one of those blessings and one of those amazing tools to utilize and improve the speed off insights, improved the speed of analytics and improve the speed of decision making that's ultimately impacting, then consumer at the store level. So Andrea talked about 4500 users that we have that number of school. But what I owe the recently like to focus on, uh, Andrew and I laughing because I think the last time we've spoken at a larger forum with the fastball community, I think we had only 500 users. That was in the beginning >>of the year in in February, we were aiming to have like 1000 >>exactly. So mission accomplished. So we've got 4500 employees now. Everybody asked me, Yeah, that's a big number, but how many times do people actually log in on a weekly or daily basis? I'm or interested in that statistic? So lately, um, we've had more than 400 users on the weekly basis. What's what's been cool lately is, uh, the exponential growth off ad hoc ways. So throughout October, we've reached a 75,000 ad hoc ways in our system and about 13,000 PIN board views. So why is that's that's significant? We started off, I would say, in January of 2020 when Andrea refers to it, I think we started off with about 40 45,000 ad hoc worries a month. So again, that was cool. But at the end of the day, we were able to thio double that amount as more people migrate to act hawk searches from PIN board views, and that's that's a tremendous phenomena, because that's what that's about is all about. So I touched upon a little bit about exercise and cycling. So these are our quarterly results for Q two, um, that have showed tremendous growth that we did not plan for, that we were able to achieve with, ultimately the individuals who work throughout the organization, whether it's the merch organization or whether it's the supply chain side of the business. But coming together and utilizing a B I platform by tools such a hot spot, we can see triple digit growth results. Eso What's next for us users at Hawks searches? That's fantastic. I would still like to get to more than 1200 people on the weekly basis. The cool number to me is if all of our lifetime users were you were getting into the tool on a weekly basis. That would be cool. And what's proven to be true is ultimately the only way to achieve it is to keep surprising and delighting them and your surprising and delighting them with the functionality of the tool. With more of the relevant content and ultimately data adding in more data, um, is again possible through ET else, and it's possible through pulling that information manually. But it's expensive, expensive not from the sense of monetary value, but it's expensive from the size time, all of those aspects of things So what I'm looking forward to is migrating our platform to azure in snowflake and being able thio scale our insights accordingly. Toe adding more data to Adam or incites more, uh, more individual worksheets and data sets for people to Korea against helps the each one of the individuals learn. Get some of the insights. Helps my team in particular be, well, more well versed in the data that we have existing throughout the organization. Um, and then now Andrea, in touch upon how we scale it further and and how each one of the individuals can become better with this wonderful >>Yeah, soas used a zero mentioned theater hawk searches going up. It's sort of it's a little internal victory because our starting platform had really been thio build the pin boards to replicate what the users were already expecting. So that was sort of how we easily got people in. And then we just cut off the tap Thio, whatever the previous report waas. So it gave them away. Thio get into the tool and understand the information. So now that they're using ad hoc really means they understand the tool. Um, then they they have the data literacy Thio access the information and use it how they need. So that's it's a really cool piece. Um, that worked on for Canadian tire. A very report oriented and heavy organization. So it was a good starting platforms. So seeing those ad hoc searches go up is great. Um, one of the ways that we sort of scaled out of our initial group and I kind of mentioned this earlier I sort of stepped on my own toes here. Um is that once it was a proven success with the merchants and it started to spread through word of mouth and we sought out the analyst teams. Um, we really just kept sort of driving the insights, finding the data and learning more about the pieces of the business. As you would like to think he knows everything about everything. He only knows what he knows. Eso You have to continue to cultivate the internal champions. Um Thio really keep growing the adoption eso find this means that air excited about the possibility of using thought spot and what they can do with it. You need to find those people because they're the ones who are going to be excited to have this rapid access to the information and also to just be able to quickly spend less time telling a user had access it in thought spot. Then they would running the report because euro mentioned we basically hit a curiosity tax, right? You you didn't want to search for things or you didn't want to ask questions of the data because it was so conversed. Um, it was took too much time to get the data. And if you didn't know exactly what you were looking for, it was worse. So, you know, you wouldn't run a query and be like, Oh, that's interesting. Let me let me now run another query of all that information to get more data. Just not. It's not time effective or resource effective. Actually, at the point, eso scaling the adoption is really cultivating those people who are really into it as well. Um, from a personal development perspective, sort of as a user, I mean, one who doesn't like being smartest person in the room on bought spot sort of provides that possibility. Andi, it makes it easier for you to get recognized for delivering results on Dahlia ble insights and sort of driving the business forward. So you know, B b that all star be the Trailblazer with all the answers, and then you can just sort of find out what really like helping the organization realized the power of thought spot on, baby. Make it into a career. >>Amazing. I love love that you've joined us, Andrea. Such a such an amazing create trajectory. No bias that all of my s o heaps of great information there. Thank you both. So much for sharing your story on driving such amazing adoption and the impact that you've been able to make a T organization through. That we've got a couple of minutes remaining. So just enough time for questions. Eso Andrea. Our first questions for you from your experience. What is one thing you would recommend to new thoughts about users? >>Um, yeah, I would say Be curious and creative. Um, there's one phrase that we used a lot in training, which was just mess around in the tool. Um, it's sort of became a catchphrase. It is really true. Just just try and use it. You can't break. It s Oh, just just play around. Try it you're only limitation of what you're gonna find is your own creativity. Um, and the last thing I would say is don't get trapped by trying to replicate things. Is that exactly as they were? B, this is how we've always done it. Isin necessarily The the best move on day isn't necessarily gonna find new insights. Right. So the change forces you thio look at things from a different perspective on defined. Find new value in the data. >>Yeah, absolutely. Sage advice there. Andan another one here for Yaro. So I guess our theme for beyond this year is analytics meets Cloud Open for everyone. So, in your experience, what does What does that mean for you? >>Wonderful question. Yeah. Listen, Angela Okay, so to me, in short, uh, means scale and it means turning Yes. Sorry. No, into a yes. Uh, no, I'm gonna elaborate. Is interest is laughing at me a little bit. That's right. >>I can talk >>Fancy Two. Okay, So scale from the scale perspective Cloud a zai touched upon Throw our conversation on our presentation cloud enables your ability Thio store have more data, have access to more data without necessarily employing a number off PTL developers and going toe a number of security aspect of things in different data sources now turning a no into a yes. What does that mean with more data with more scalability? Um, the analytics possibilities become infinite throughout my career at Canadian Tire. Other organizations, if you don't necessarily have access thio data or you do not have the necessary granularity, you always tell individuals No, it's not possible. I'm not able to deliver that result. And quite often that becomes the norm, saying no becomes the norm. And I think what we're all striving towards here on this call Aziz part the conference is turning that no one say yes on then making a yes a new, uh, standard a new form. Um, as we have more access to the data, more access to the insights. So that would be my answer. >>Love it. Amazing. Well, that kind of brings in into this session. So thank you, everyone for joining us today on did wrap up this dream. Don't miss the upcoming product roadmap eso We'll be sticking around to speak thio some of the speakers you heard earlier today and I'll make the experts round table, and you can absolutely continue the conversation with this life. Q. On Q and A So you've got an opportunity here to ask questions that maybe keep you up at night. Perhaps, but yet stay tuned for the meat. The experts secrets to scaling analytics adoption after the product roadmap session. Thanks everyone. And thank you again for joining us. Guys. Appreciate it. >>Thank you. Thanks. Thanks.