(upbeat digital music) >> Welcome to theCube's coverage of PagerDuty Summit. I'm your host for the cube Natalie Erlich. We're joined with a special guest, Sean Mack, the CIO and CSO of Wiley. Thank you very much for joining the program. >> Great to be here, Natalie. Thanks for having me. >> Terrific, well tell us about Wiley. What do you do? >> Sure, Wiley is really wonderful company. Wiley drives the world forward with research in education through publishing and services. We help researchers, professionals, students, universities, and corporations to achieve their goals. Wiley's primarily known as a publishing company, but really now more than ever, we're a tech enabled research and education company, and we have three major areas of impact, research, education, and professional learning. >> Well, obviously the pandemic, the big topic of the last year and hopefully new topics as we move forward, but how has education community evolved during this pandemic? And what's the next step for hybrid learning? >> Yeah, it's been amazing to be part of education and research during this pandemic, during a time when these things have never really been more important. Wiley is a company that's transforming at every level and to many extensive pandemic accelerated those changes and this is nowhere more evident than in the education space. For a long time we'd been building these online and computer-based education platforms and really trying to get folks to move there. And that's been a long, long process and it's been wonderful 'cause we've seen the pandemic has really accelerated that. And we've seen huge increases in usage on our online education platforms, which we've been pushing towards for years. So in many ways it's really enabled us to move forward in a way that that nothing else could have. >> Yeah, I mean, that's really incredible, you mentioned incredible silver lining with the pandemic accelerating digital transformation, especially in education. What do you see as the next phase now that this has really developed over the last year? >> So as I mentioned, we're transforming at every level and at a business level, we just talked a little bit about that. Education is moving more and more to on online and hybrid models. Research, we're moving more and more to open access models where everybody has access to research. Again with the pandemic this has been critical to make sure that we're getting out good medical research and that it's available as widely as possible. But we're also transforming internally. I've been with Wiley about a year and a half now. And when I started, so this is actually prior to COVID, our CEO Brian Napack, said that we're not in a single market that's not going through major disruption, and he's right. And it's so exciting to be part of this company. And on the internally, we have to make sure we're going through a transformation so that we can deliver the products and services that the world's demanding at the speed at which they're demanding them. And so we're also going through transformations from Agile to cloud to DevOps, and it makes it a really exciting place to be as a technologist and also someone who is passionate about education and research. >> Yeah, well terrific. Why did you choose PagerDuty? >> I think there are a few key elements that PagerDuty really enables for us. So as I mentioned, we're going through this DevOps transformation and some of the core competencies, the core principles of DevOps are ones that are enabled by PagerDuty. I think a couple of key ones that I love about it are the ability to empower the users rather than having a centralized service desk that is looking up things and paging out and needs to manage a registry of all the technology people. We can put that power, that control in the hands of what we at Wiley call the functional delivery teams. These teams that are fully responsible for their staff, fully responsible for their research and education solutions that they're delivering. And we using PagerDuty can put that responsibility and empower those teams to take full ownership of their on call schedules, their team management, without having to go through several hops to get there. And I think this also drives another key element, which is that accountability. Look, we're asking these functional delivery teams to take responsibility for their applications and services. We don't work in an environment where we say, "Oh, that's a operations team's responsibility," we're working in a DevOps model. And we can't rightfully ask teams to take responsibility if we don't provide them the tools to be in control of their own fate. And I really think that PagerDuty is a key element of that tool chain, which enables them to manage their full stack and thereby drives that accountability and ownership. >> Yeah, well, I'd love it if you could tell us some of the challenges you were trying to solve by implementing PagerDuty. >> There were several, I think it speaks to some of the underlying principles of DevOps and Agile that we were trying to enable. More than anything it's really about driving better, meantime to resolution when incidents do arrive through faster escalation directly to the right person. And breaking out of this tiered service model where it has to go through a tier one, a tier two, tier three, before the technical issue gets to the right person. Now with PagerDuty, the issue goes directly to the person who can solve it and they're there, they're able to solve it. And we have made huge strides in reducing our meantime to resolution. I have never seen improvements like I've seen in the past year and a half in Wiley using PagerDuty as a part of our overall tool chain. >> Yeah, I mean, if you have a concrete example that something really stood out, we'd love to hear that. >> So I'm not going to go bring up the charts and data to show you, but I'll tell ya the concrete data is there. We track how long it takes us obviously to resolve problems when they occur, and I was blown away by what this team has achieved. And I don't want to take away credit from all the work they've done either. Tools alone doesn't solve any problem, we have amazing technology team, an amazing team willing to take that responsibility. But if you look at the numbers over the past year and a half, in terms of the reduction in time to resolve across every team, it's truly impressive. >> And what are you looking forward to at the summit? >> Well, I'm always excited to hear about what's going on at PagerDuty. I think there are a couple key items or key sessions that I'm excited to see. I'm really looking forward to hearing more about the future of work, the views from the C-suite. I think PagerDuty always has a really unique and fresh perspective, and so I think that's going to be very pertinent and timely as we look to what's coming next in hybrid world. I'm also excited about the what's next in DevOps presentation. Some great folks speaking there. And I think DevOps is maturing and we can... (laughing) for a longest time we were asking, What is DevOps? Can we define it? Can we define it in a consistent way? And I think we're at a point now where we can, and we know the components. So it's a really good time to ask what's next in DevOps. And finally, I'm just excited to hear what's next for PagerDuty. It's been a great tool for us and I'm excited to see where the company is going next. >> Yeah, terrific. Well, let's shift gears a bit. Staying on point with digital transformation. How is that in line with some of the broader organizational goals that Wiley has, such as bridging the higher education gap? >> Yeah, I think that as I mentioned, all our businesses are changing dramatically and we're not going to be able to meet the rapidly changing technology demands, unless we have technologies and teams that can rapidly change with those demands and rapidly expand with those demands. So whether that's auto scaling, whether that's more resilient systems, we need to be there. And I'll also mention the key element that security plays here, because the other change we're seeing is a huge increase in the threat landscape and the depth of some of the attacks we're seeing. And so this focus on security is another important part of the transformation and the transformation from just security to DevSecOps is something that's key for Wiley. It's critical because security for Wiley is security for our customers. And one of the things that we offer is the promise of reliable and secure services. >> And what are some of the innovative ways that Wiley is now delivering content solutions? >> So we're always trying to push the envelope of education in many different ways. I think that there's huge possibilities with AI, machine learning, adaptive learning to really push that envelope to really... I mean, one of the things that I love about being at Wiley is that I get to be involved with education and research. Like my job gets to be helping people learn better, helping people learn quicker. If we can, through technology, make learning easier, let's make it quicker to learn and also look at reducing the cost and availability of that education, we can make an impact around the world, and that's an exciting thing to be part of. >> So in terms of digital transformation, obviously that's a priority for you, security, tell us more about specifically the main points that you're going to be focusing on in this next year in 2021. >> There's a few key key elements that we're focusing on as we go into... It's actually coincidentally the start of our fiscal year, We have a bit of an interesting fiscal year. But that kicks off or just kicked off last month. So we've spent the last four months doing a lot of planning for this year. For me, I think some of the keys are going to be driving agility through simplicity. And one of the places that comes into play is through our tool chain. Making sure we don't have every tool, but we've got the right tools to connect our users, and that, that tool chain is very much interconnected so that we can hit on another key concept for me, which is the enablement of our business. We enable our developers, we enable content editors, we enabled all of Wiley to do the best job they can through technology. We want technology to be seamless for our users. And these three concepts, seamless, enablement and simplicity, agility through simplicity, really work hand in hand to enable our users, our community, to develop, to build at the speed that business demands. >> And obviously, security a really key feature of your role. We don't often think about security going hand in hand with education, but for some of our viewers that are not directly involved in education, why is that so critical? >> Well, I think anyone who's involved with technology today can grasp the criticality of security. Not many days go by that we don't hear of new threats, new ransomware attacks. And Wiley is now more than ever a technology enabled and driven business. When we talk about education, we're talking about technology. When we talk about research, we talk about technology and the underpinning systems and the threats that are out there, impact education and research technology just as they do any other research in education or any other line of business. We have amazing security team at Wiley. I am really blown away by the work this team does every day, and I'm excited about where it's going to. It's so critical for us because we need to provide... If we talk about enabling education for more people in a more effective way around the world, part of that is making sure that all of our users are secure and safe and confident. So we are investing heavily in security and going beyond just spending more money, but really taking a innovative DevSecOps approach, focusing on application security, focusing on making security, not just a team, but part of what everybody in Wiley does because technology can't just be a set of tools and it can't be one team that sits in a dark corner of the environment and tells people what they can't do. Security has to be core to everything we do. And so when we're talking about people building new products and services, we have to make sure that they're part of the security solution. When we talk about our finance users, they need to be part of our security solution. Only by making sure that security is integral to everything we do, are we truly going to be able to make sure we have a secure set of products and services for our users. >> Terrific. Well, thank you so much for your insights and thoughts on PagerDuty Summit as well as digital transformation at Wiley. Really appreciate it, Sean Mack, the CIO and CSO at Wiley. Thank you for joining the program. >> Great, thank you. Thank you so much for having me here. >> And that's all for this session of PagerDuty Summit coverage by "theCube." I'm your host Natalie Elrich. Thanks for watching. (upbeat digital music)

(upbeat music) >> Welcome to theCUBE's coverage of PagerDuty Summit. I'm your host for "theCUBE" Natalie Erlich. We're joined with a special guest, Sean Mack, the CIO and CISO of Wiley. Thank you very much for joining the program. >> Great to be here, Natalie. Thanks for having me. >> Terrific, well, tell us about Wiley. What do you do? >> Sure, Wiley is really wonderful company. Wiley drives the world forward with research and education. Through publishing and services, we help researchers, professionals, students, universities and corporations to achieve their goals. Wiley's primarily known as a publishing company but really now more than ever we're a tech enabled research and education company and we have three major areas of impact. Research, education, and professional learning. >> Terrific, well, you know obviously the pandemic the big topic of the last year and hopefully, new topics as we move forward, but how has education community evolved during this pandemic and what's the next step for hybrid learning? >> Yeah, it's been amazing to be part of education and research during this pandemic. during a time when these things have never really been more important. Wiley is a company that's transforming at every level and to many extensive pandemic accelerated those changes. And this is nowhere more evident than in the education space. For a long time we'd been building these online and computer-based education platforms and really trying to get folks to move there. And that's been a long, long process and it's been wonderful 'cause we've seen the pandemic has really accelerated that. And we've seen huge increases in usage on our online education platforms, which we've been pushing towards for years. So in many ways it's really enabled us to move forward in a way that nothing else could have. >> Yeah, I mean that's really incredible. You mentioned incredible silver lining with the pandemic, accelerating digital transformation especially in education. What do you see as the next phase now that this has really developed over the last year? >> Yeah, so as I mentioned, we're transforming at every level and at a business level that we just talked a little bit about that, education is moving more and more to online and hybrid models. Research, we're moving more and more to open access models where everybody has had access to research, again with the pandemic this has been critical to make sure that we're getting out good medical research and that it's available as widely as possible. But we're also transforming internally. I've been with Wiley about a year and a half now and when I started, so this is actually prior to COVID our CEO Brian Napack said that we're not in a single market that's not going through major disruption and he's right. And it's so exciting to be part of this company. And on the internally, we have to make sure we're going through a transformation so that we can deliver the products and services that the world's demanding at the speed at which they're demanding them, right? And so we're also going through transformations from Agile to Cloud to devOps, and it makes it a really exciting place to be as a technologist. And also someone who's passionate about education research. >> Yeah, well, terrific. Why did you choose PagerDuty? >> I think there are a few key elements that PagerDuty really enables for us. So as I mentioned, we're going through this devOps transformation and some of the core competencies, the core principles of devOps are ones that are enabled by PagerDuty. I think a couple of key ones that I love about it are the ability to empower the users rather than having a centralized service desk that is looking up things and paging out and needs to manage a registry of all the technology people. We can put that power that control in the hands of what we at wildly called a functional delivery teams. These teams that are fully responsible for their staff, fully responsible for their research and education solutions that they're delivering. And we were using PagerDuty can put that responsibility and empower those teams to take full ownership of their on call schedules, their team management without having to go through several hops to get there. And I think this also drives another key element which is that accountability. Look, we're asking these functional delivery teams to take responsibility for their applications and services. We don't work in an environment where you say, Oh, that's our operations team's responsibility, we're working in a devOps model. And we can't ask, we can't rightfully ask teams to take responsibility if we don't provide them the tools to be in control of their own fate. And I really think that PagerDuty is a key element of that tool chain, which enables them to manage their full stack and thereby drives that accountability and ownership. >> Yeah, well, I'd love it if you could tell us some of the challenges you were trying to solve by implementing PagerDuty. >> There were several, I think it speaks to some of the underlying principles of devOps and Agile that we were trying to enable. More than anything it's really about driving better meantime to resolution when incidents do arrive. through faster escalation directly to the right person, right? We breaking out of this tiered service model where it has to go through a tier one, a tier two, tier three before the technical issue gets to the right person right. Now with PagerDuty the issue goes directly to the person who can solve it, and they're there, they're able to solve it. And we have made huge strides in reducing our meantime to resolution. I have never seen improvements like I've seen in the past year and a half in Wiley using PagerDuty as a part of our overall tool chain. >> Yeah, I mean if you have a concrete example that something really stood out would love to hear that. >> So I'm not going to go bring up the charts and data to show you but I'll tell ya' the concrete data is there. We track how long it takes us obviously to resolve problems when they occur. And I was blown away by what this team has achieved. And I don't want to take away credit from all the work they've done either right. Tools alone doesn't solve any problem. We have a amazing technology team and amazing team willing to take that responsibility. But if you look at the numbers over the past year and a half, in terms of the reduction in time to resolve across every, every team, it's truly impressive. >> And what are you looking forward to at the summit? >> Well, I'm always excited to hear about what's going on at PagerDuty. I think there are a couple key items or key sessions that I'm excited to see. I'm really looking forward to hearing more about the future of work, the views from the C-suite. I think PagerDuty always has a really unique and fresh perspective and so I think that's going to be very pertinent and timely as we look to what's coming next in a hybrid world. I'm also excited about the what's next in DevOps presentation, some great folks speaking there. And I think devOps is maturing and we can, (laughs) for a longest time we were asking, what is devOps, right? Can we define, can we define it in an inconsistent way? And I think we're at a point now where we can, and we know the components. So it's a really good time to ask what's next in devOps. And finally I'm just excited to hear what's next for PagerDuty. It's been a great tool for us and I'm excited to see where the company is going next. >> Yeah, terrific. Well, let's shift gears a bit, staying on point with digital transformation. How is that in line with some of the broader organizational goals that that Wiley has, such as bridging the higher education gap? >> Yeah, I think that as I mentioned all our businesses are changing dramatically and we're not going to be able to meet the rapidly changing technology demands unless we have technologies and teams that can rapidly change with those demands and rapidly expand with those demands. So whether that's auto scaling, whether that's more resilient systems, we need to be there. And I'll also mention the key element that security plays here because the other change we're seeing is a huge increase in the threat landscape and the depth of some of the attacks we're seeing. And so this focus on security is another important part of the transformation and the transformation from just security to DevSecOps is something that's key for Wiley. It's critical because security for Wiley is security for our customers. And one of the things that we offer is the promise of reliable and secure services >> And what are some of the innovative ways that Wiley is now delivering content solutions? >> So we're always trying to push the envelope of education in many different ways. I think that there's huge possibilities with AI machine learning, adaptive learning to really push that envelope, to really, I mean, one of the things that I love about being at Wiley is that I get to be involved with education and research. Like my job gets to be helping people learn better, helping people learn quicker, right. If we can, through technology, make learning easier, make it quicker to learn and also look at reducing the cost and availability of that education. We can make an impact around the world. And that's the exciting thing to be part of. >> Yeah, indeed. Well talk to us about some of the collaborations that you have with author, societies, libraries, and other members of the research community. >> So I'm probably >> At Wiley. >> Not the best one to talk to. (laughs) I focus a lot on enabling our researchers and educators. I focus a lot on enabling the teams that are building the platforms but you'd have to talk to the lines of business to get into a bit more depth about the many Nobel laureates that we're working with. >> Terrific, yeah. So in terms of digital transformation, obviously that's a priority for you, security, tell us more about specifically the main points that you're going to be focusing on in this next year in 2021. >> Yeah, there's a few key key elements that we're focusing on as we go into, it's actually coincidentally the start of our fiscal year. We have a bit of an interesting fiscal year but that kicks off or just kicked off last month. So we've spent the last four months doing a lot of planning for this year. For me, I think some of the keys are going to be driving agility through simplicity, right? And one of the places that comes into play is through our tool chain. Making sure we don't have every tool but we've got the right tools to connect our users. And that tool chain is very much interconnected so that we can hit on another key concept for me which is the enablement of our business, right. We enable our developers, we enable content editors. We enabled all of Wiley to do the best job they can through technology. We want technology to be seamless for our users. So, and these three concepts, seamless, enablement and simplicity, agility through simplicity, really work hand in hand to enable our users, our community, to develop, to build at the speed that business demands >> And obviously, security really, key feature of your role. We don't often think about security going hand in hand with education, but for some of our viewers that are not directly involved in education why is that so critical? >> Yeah, well, I think anyone who's involved with technology today can grasp the criticality of security. Not many days go by that we don't hear of new threats, new ransomware attacks and Wiley is now more than ever a technology enabled and driven business. When we talk about education we're talking about technology. When we talk about research, we talk about technology and the underpinning systems and the threats that are out there, impact education and research technology just as they do any other research and education or any other line of business. We have amazing security team Wiley, I am really blown away by the work this team does every day. And I'm excited about where it's going to. it's so critical for us because we need to provide, we talk about enabling education for more people in a more effective way around the world, part of that is making sure that all of our users are secure and safe and confident. So we are investing heavily in security and going beyond just spending more money but really taking a innovative DevSecOps approach, focusing on application security, focusing on making security not just a team, but part of what everybody in Wiley does. Because technology can't just be a set of tools and it can't be one team that sits in a dark corner of the environment and tells people what they can't do. Security has to be poor to everything we do. And so when we're talking about people building new products and services, we have to make sure that they're part of the security solution. When we talk about our finance users they need to be part of our security solution. If we're not, only by making sure that security is integral to everything we do are we truly going to be able to make sure we have a secure set of products and services for our users. >> Terrific, well, thank you so much for your insights and thoughts on PagerDuty summit as well as digital transformation at Wiley. Really appreciate it. Sean Mack, the CIO and CISO at Wiley. Thank you for joining the program. >> Great, thank you. Thank you so much for having me here. >> And that's all for this session of PagerDuty summit coverage by "theCUBE." I'm your host Natalie Erlich. Thanks for watching. (upbeat music)

>> From theCUBE's studios in Palo Alto, in Boston, connecting with thought leaders around the globe. These are Cloud Native Insights. >> Hi, I'm Stu Miniman, the host of Cloud Native Insights. And when we talk about cloud native, we're talking about how do I take advantage of the agility in innovation, in cloud and the ecosystem out there? And a big question is if I'm a company that's not born in the cloud, or if I'm person that's not steeped in the knowledge of leveraging and using all of these wonderful tools out there, how do I get there? To help us dig into the people and company moving to cloud and adopt the use of these technologies, happy to welcome to the program, Forrest Brazeal. He is a senior manager with A Cloud Guru is his official title, but he is the cloud bard, as many people know in a bard, of course, an oral transition. He creates poems, he sings, he's got a book coming out to illustrate the cloud and really great to be able to talk to you Forrest. Thanks so much for joining us. >> Hey, it's great to be on the show, Stu, thanks for having me. >> All right, so first if you could just share a little bit about your background. So you joined A Cloud Guru, you know, relatively recently, I'd seen some of the cartoons and videos you've done in the past. You've got kind of a renaissance man look, you're not just a tech guy, as I said, you do have some of those musical pursuits also. So I'd love to hear a little of your background. >> Yeah, so I've been an engineer for a long time. I've been an engineer, been a manager of engineers, a consultant, and that's from, you know, startups ranging all the way up to the fortune 50. So I've seen a lot of enterprises in other companies at various stages of their cloud journey. From, you know, just trying to figure out how to get to the cloud out of the data center, all the way to being very cloud native. As you were saying in your intro, you know, figuring out how to build directly on cloud services. I'm very passionate about that. Very passionate about helping people figure out how to take that next step. Not to be a stucker, to get into a state where they are, but to figure out how to get, as I say up the Serverless ladder, right to that next stage of cloud native adoption. And I've realized that, you know, a lot of these technologies and a lot of these concepts, these practices are very abstract. And sometimes what helps the most is to put that in a format that people can engage with. And so I draw and I sometimes sing and I write all sorts of things just to try to help people understand. You know, even though these technologies and practices, these ideas are abstract, they don't have to be difficult, right? Everybody's got some intuitive understanding of why a doctor exists or why a lawyer exists. It's a little bit harder to get your head around, you know, why does a cloud architect exist? What do they build, right? And that's what I try to do with things like the book, The Read Aloud Cloud, that's coming out in just a couple of months. >> All right, so I love that, you know, helping companies understand these things because, you know, for so many years it was like, ah, well we need a mandate for the cloud. You know, cloud, cloud, cloud. When I started this, it was, you know, cloud is not a destination. There is how do we really take advantage of cloud? And there was one post that you wrote talking about lift and shift. And it was one of those things that we've seen for years, there's arguments of, you know, is lift and shift good, if it's bad? And of course the reality is sometimes lift and shift is needed, but it is step one of what you need to do, because if you're not taking advantage of the cloud, the rift reaches a certain point that you say, oh my gosh, maybe I'm not taking advantage of it, maybe the cost don't make sense, and therefore we scrambled and we pull things back and we celebrate repatriation, which to my mind was always, oh, geez, we kind of didn't understand it, we failed. And then we kind of went back to doing what we didn't want to do. So walk us through, if you could, we've even got an illustration of yours that we'll talk about, but you know, give us, you know, what is the proper way that people should think about lift and shift? >> Yeah, exactly. And to be clear, I'm not dissing lift and shift as a concept. It's very necessary in a lot of cases and you can reel off a bunch of reasons why lift and shift would be an important stepping stone in a cloud journey. And of course, that could be just, you know, I've got to get out of the data center, right? Because my lease is expiring or, you know, my servers are haunted and the whole thing is on fire. I've talked to people who, you know, have fireworks stored in their data center, literally that they're afraid are going to go off, right? The roof is leaking. It's time to get out of there and just get to someplace that's professionally managed. You could be using a lift and shift migration almost as like a financial engineering tactic to go from a CapEx to an OPEX model, right? And tie what you're doing a little bit more closely to what you're spending. There's several other reasons that you might choose to have lift and shift is that first stage you might want just to get your feet wet a little bit in cloud. You know, you might not have the confidence or the expertise in-house to build on fully cloud native services right now, you've got to go in and get your Ops teams hands-on right with the technologies and with the tooling so that they understand a little better, how to get you to that next step. But the really, really key thing is lift and shift is a phase you've got to get through it, you've got to keep innovating. And a lot of people don't realize that they think they can go to the cloud, pick up their servers, run them pretty much as they did in the data center, they can stop there, and they're going to get longterm benefits from cloud. And over time, that gets less and less true. Because as I say, once you move that first VM into EC2 or whatever the case may be, you've started a shot clock on your chances for success in the cloud. That clock is ticking cause your initial benefits are very front-loaded. You're potentially getting some initial cost wins as your, hopefully matching your usage a little bit better to what you're spending on infrastructure, right? You're potentially getting some time to learn and plan for version two of your cloud infrastructure. But the longer you stay in that lift and shift states, some dangers are going to start compounding. Because in the absence of a true cloud native strategy, your teams, your Ops teams, your governance teams, if you have those, right? They're going to continue to do things the way they did it in the data center. Because they don't have true SRE, they don't have true automation, they're going to build manual slow error-prone processes that are going to drag down your time to value your MTTR, all those operational metrics at you look at. You're going to see those costs winds actually start to evaporate because you know, you're still running that legacy monolith, You can't effectively charge back spend to different units inside of your business, you realize you're not getting that value, you thought you were running. You know, because you're running the cloud like a data center, and let's be honest, that's super expensive. And then unfortunately over time, and usually you start hitting this threshold 18 months, two years out, your best people, the experts who were bringing you to the cloud in the first place, they get disillusioned because they're not seeing the continued forward motion that they'd been led to believe was going to happen. And so they start moving on, you get brain drain, and now you've created this new legacy swamp of poor procedures and practices, the very thing that you were hoping to avoid. And so at that point, the negative side effects of the lift and shift have overwhelmed, the benefits you thought you were going to get. That's when you're lift and shift shot clock has expired. And that's what you want to avoid by continuing to innovate and continuing to refactor towards a true cloud native deployment. >> Yeah, well, again, I thought that the visual was excellent and it's so good to explain, you know, what is the journey we're going through? What are the decision points? You might look through some of these and say, oh, well, you know, these three definitely apply to my business, some of the others I might not be concerned about, but I can take that and apply it to what I'm doing. So that that's the company side of things. You know, Forrest, you're an AWS Serverless Hero, and also in your day job, your company helps people with the training. So let's talk about people. You know, when it comes to, you know, how do we get involved? One of the things I loved about the Serverless community from the early times that I met it, was, it seemed that the bar to enter was relatively low. So many of these things, it's like, ah, well, do I have the basic skill set? Do I understand how to get there? How do I actually get to where I need to be? And that so many people are hesitant to start that journey, cause it just seems so daunting. So what are you seeing out there? You know, give us the landscape in 2020 as to, you know, how we move forward. And I know you've got a project you've been doing called the cloud resume challenge. So, you know, definitely talk a little bit about that too. >> Yeah, for sure. So look, even going beyond 2020, I think the numbers I've heard, we're looking at potentially a hundred million software developers being added to the workforce over the course of the next decade and change. That's a lot of people who are going to have to interact with these services who are going to have to build and create value on top of cloud infrastructure. And so there's a huge need for us to continue to create abstractions and to create guided, you know, best practices and principles that will help people get where they need to be with as little unnecessary work as possible. And really that's a lot of what underlay the Serverless community and the ideas behind that. I've been involved in Serverless for a long time, going back to when I was, you know, building on Serverless inside of large companies early on in that revolution. And I've carried that forward now with my work as an AWS Serverless Hero, even the work that I'm doing at A Cloud Guru. And really the bar to entry, as you mentioned, is so low, because you're cutting out a lot of things that were seen as sort of gate keeping mechanisms in the past. You know, oh, if you haven't learned this underlying protocol or whatever, then you don't qualify as a real developer. Serverless turns out on its head and says, no, I'm providing you with abstractions that you're going to be able to build on top of. And you're going to be able to focus so much more of your energy on things that actually provide value for the business. And yeah, that kind of started as a very leading edge, early adopter thing, but we're seeing more and more even large enterprises. We're seeing that start to click and they're realizing, you know, wherever I can, wherever I'm not potentially constrained by legacy practices or other code bases, I do want to explore, you know, seeing how quickly I can turn a prototype around, how quickly I can A, B, C, D, E, F, G test something if you will, by spinning up these low cost prototypes in the cloud, right on infrastructure, that's just costing me fractions of a cent to run. There's some really, really compelling avenues that even larger businesses can explore. But taking it back to the individual for a second, Think about, you know, I'm in the middle of a global pandemic, okay? And potentially I'm looking for a career switch now more than ever, I'm thinking, you know, I'd like to get into development, I'd like to get into IT. And it's so close to me now. You look at these services out there, like Networkify which you and I were talking about before the break, right? Talking about how easy those technologies make it for someone to get out there and actually we do web development. But you still need someone to kind of step alongside you and say, you know, these are the things you need to care about, these are things that might be irrelevant. There's an explosion, almost like an infodemic, if you will, of information out there that makes it really hard for folks who are trying to actually skill up, and who're trying to make that transition into tech and into code. That's what A Cloud Guru does of course, which is that the company I work for. We've got about 2.2 million learners on our platform right now that we're helping to scale up and take that step toward the modern tech skills that they need to succeed. The cloud resume challenge, which you mentioned is something I've been doing kind of on the side. And that's a project-based approach that compliments a lot of the additional training that I was talking about. Where we say, you know, I'm going to give you a project, it's going to have some sort of spec based steps to it. So you're going to create a resume, but it's going to be deployed, you know, in the cloud, you're going to have to do some source control, some CICD, some, you know, all these other things that are going to be built into a basic DevOps competency. You're going to have to go away and do some Googling and open some tabs, in order to figure this out on your own cause the project doesn't tell you exactly how to do it. So you actually wind up with some kind of some pain. There's some failure involved there, and that of course is what makes the learning stick. And so we've got people working this on every continent now, we've had many people that have completed it, we've seen people get interviewed. We've seen people get hired coming out of a totally non tech background. So that's really exciting. And you know, those stories, aren't going to be unusual forward. We're going to see more and more of this, and really that's what these cloud abstracting technologies have allowed us to do. Probably it wouldn't be possible to do something like the cloud resume challenge 20 years ago, the barrier to entry with, you know, even just procuring the infrastructure you'd need to be successful in a reasonable amount of time, you know, was accessible to everybody, but now we're there. Those services are at your fingertips. You just need a little bit of guidance, a little bit of curation to get you down the right path. >> Well, yeah, it was actually, you know, what excited me when I first met the ACG team was the bar to entry was so low. In previous decades, you talk about, you know, how much time and how much money I needed to spend just to get some of these courses, even if they were online. And it was just order of magnitudes easier and, you know, built for that cloud environment that I can start I can pause, I have learning resources, and it's been really impressive to watch the expansion of the team there. I'm curious, when you look at, you know, certifications out there, when you look at the need for jobs out there, if I'm not, you know, if I'm in the tech industry, what are some of the things that you think that people should be learning moving forward to? Where would you recommend people start looking there? >> Yeah, absolutely. So I think one thing, a lot of people miss is, you know, it's a good idea to get started with technologies that are new, if you're new. Because let's be real, you can't ask for five years of experience in a technology that's only been around for 18 months. So it's really smart to major on something and get good at something that not a lot of people are good at yet. And you say, well, how do I know that technology is going to take off and succeed? Well, the fact of the matter is even if that specific technology doesn't, you still have a much greater understanding of the problem space, and you'll be right at the cutting edge, ready to jump in on, you know, whatever the next thing is. So I always recommend that people look at things like Serverless and the managed services that are coming out. Get really good at automating, you know, services on the major cloud providers pick AWS, Azure, GCP, right? And just make that your thing, don't specialize in too niche of an area, you know, especially if you're very new, but especially pick a cloud provider, get good at working with the basic services, you'll find that that sets you apart more than, for example, I don't know, going after a certification that's been around for 20 years, that tons and tons of people in the job market have, right? That doesn't necessarily set you apart as much as some of these modern skills do. So I definitely recommend that. >> Yeah, it's funny for us, actually, I laugh a little bit. You mentioned that you've been doing Serverless for a long time, and I'm like, well, okay, I remember sitting in the audience at 80 bus Re-invent when Lambda was unveiled, I think it was re:Invent 2014. So, you know, there's nobody out there that's been, "Oh, I've been doing this for a decade." We always laugh, when there's a job applications out there and say, oh, okay, you know, I want 10 years of a technology that's been around for five years. But yeah, maybe there's one other, a cartoon that you brought along talking about the difference between transition cloud, excuse me, cloud translation and cloud fluency. Maybe just walk through that difference. And especially people that have been in the industry for awhile, how do we make sure that we're actually embracing and understanding and moving to that cloud world, not just, you know, cloud washing? >> Yeah, that's a good word. You know, something that struck me, I think a bit of an epiphany that I had around the time that I started at A Cloud Guru and keep in mind, I'm coming out of years of having worked with these large organizations and try and help them figure out how to migrate to cloud. And what I had seen is there's a lot of these kind of central cloud teams, if you will, that get established right at the beginning of an organization's cloud adoption. And that's a well known pattern, you know, this "cloud center of excellence", if you will, that people establish. A lot of times, those are small teams. You take your best cloud people and you say, okay, you define the standards and the processes that are going to get us to cloud, and they do that. And then they're shocked when nobody adopts the standards, right? And the migration sort of stalls, and they're not having the impact that they expected to have. And what turns out is going on is just having that small group of people who understands cloud, surrounded by this huge legacy, diaspora of legacy, you know, product and engineering teams that don't speak the language of cloud, if you will. Means that anytime you want to innovate, or anytime you want to make a move, you've got to go through this process of translation. You've got to go to those legacy teams who were saying, what's EC2 instance again? You know, how do you spell S3? I thought that I wanted to log into the AWS Console, but this access and secret key, isn't going into my password box, right? You know, they have that low level of competency. And so you're constantly having to explain everything you're going back and forth, and that of course leads to kind of less sophisticated architectures that leads to poor outcomes, and it takes you much longer to get where you want to go. That's that process of cloud translation. That's an anti-pattern. So instead of that, what we try to advocate for is what we call cloud fluency. Just like with any other language you want your entire organization as much as possible to speak the language of cloud at some baseline level. We do that through a couple of things. Of course, obviously through training and certification, cloud certifications can be a great proxy to measure how well your organization's cloud competency is improving. But also through taking those cloud experts, those central experts that previously were kind of in their ivory tower doing their own thing and embed them as much as you can in a roving fashion with these legacy product teams and help them to improve, right? Sort of teach them to fish so that you're not putting all the weight on that central team to be the only experts. Because that doesn't scale, those people are going to burn out. They're going to get overwhelmed with support tickets, we see that over and over again. So you want to empower those teams. And we want to actually talk a little bit less about a cloud center of excellence sometimes, and a little more about a cloud center of enablement, right? Where we want to, instead of knowing the most about cloud, we want to show the most about cloud to those other teams. That's a sustainable pattern for success. That's what we try to do through A Cloud Guru, and that's what I try to advocate for individually, wherever I can, because I've seen people burnt out. I don't want that to happen. >> Yeah, for those of us that have been through a few of these waves here, it's something that you're right, you need to actually be involved in embracing these technologies. You don't have a center for internet usage anymore. If you think about, you know, everybody now for the most part has used the internet, understand some of pieces, it needs to be the same way when it comes to cloud. It just becomes the underlying substrate and, you know, bring forward the innovation and agility that people are looking for. All right, Forrest, last thing we talked about, you've got a book coming out a little bit later this year, The Read Aloud Cloud, give us the quick thing, you know, love, it's visual, is very accessible and definitely looking forward to hearing about that. >> Yes, yes, exciting. So it'll be out in September from Wiley. And basically you've seen a couple of the cartoons over the course of this time here. But, you know, I've been drawing for a long time trying to help people get a sense for what the cloud is and in a way that they can understand and get a grasp on. And so what The Read Aloud Cloud is, it's the history and practice of cloud computing. And it takes you from the mainframe days through artificial intelligence. And along the way, we talk about the basics of cloud architecture, we talk about security, We talk about resilience and all those important things. But it's written and drawn in a way that can be accessible even to a nontechnical person. So the person who's never been able to understand what it is that you do. And I include, you know, potentially your CEO in that conversation, right? This is a book you can hand to them that you can put on your desk, it'll give you a chuckle. But I think there's actually some really strong ability for you to gain actually a concrete visual understanding those really abstract terminologies that float around with cloud. Again, what we're doing is not necessarily complicated, it's just really abstract, it's really arcane. So let's put it in a format where we can get our heads around and hopefully have a good laugh while we're doing it. That's what The Read Aloud Cloud is, and you can check that out, wherever books are sold. >> All right, well Forrest Brazeal. Thank you so much for joining us, real pleasure talking with you. And absolutely we need to make sure that "cloud" becomes as ubiquitous as computers and the internet have before us. Really pleasure chatting with you, thanks so much for joining. >> Awesome, thanks so much Stu, it's great to be here. All right, and I'm Stu Miniman, looking forward to hearing more about your Cloud Native Insights. (bright upbeat music)

>> From Cambridge, Massachusetts, it's theCUBE. Covering MIT Chief Data Officer and Information Quality Symposium 2019. Brought to you by SiliconANGLE Media. (futuristic music) >> Welcome back to Cambridge, Massachusetts everybody. You're watching theCUBE, the leader in live tech coverage. We go out to the events and we extract the signal from the noise. This is day two, we're sort of wrapping up the Chief Data Officer event. It's MIT CDOIQ, it started as an information quality event and with the ascendancy of big data the CDO emerged and really took center stage here. And it's interesting to know that it's kind of come full circle back to information quality. People are realizing all this data we have, you know the old saying, garbage in, garbage out. So the information quality worlds and this chief data officer world have really come colliding together. Robert Abate is here, he's the Vice President and CDO of Global IDS and also the co-chair of next year's, the 14th annual MIT CDOIQ. Robert, thanks for coming on. >> Oh, well thank you. >> Now you're a CDO by background, give us a little history of your career. >> Sure, sure. Well I started out with an Electrical Engineering degree and went into applications development. By 2000, I was leading the Ralph Lauren's IT, and I realized when Ralph Lauren hired me, he was getting ready to go public. And his problem was he had hired eight different accounting firms to do eight different divisions. And each of those eight divisions were reporting a number, but the big number didn't add up, so he couldn't go public. So he searched the industry to find somebody who could figure out the problem. Now I was, at the time, working in applications and had built this system called Service Oriented Architectures, a way of integrating applications. And I said, "Well I don't know if I could solve the problem, "but I'll give it a shot." And what I did was, just by taking each silo as it's own problem, which was what EID Accounting Firm had done, I was able to figure out that one of Ralph Lauren's policies was if you buy a garment, you can return it anytime, anywhere, forever, however long you own it. And he didn't think about that, but what that meant is somebody could go to a Bloomingdale's, buy a garment and then go to his outlet store and return it. Well, the cross channels were different systems. So the outlet stores were his own business, retail was a different business, there was a completely different, each one had their own AS/400, their own data. So what I quickly learned was, the problem wasn't the systems, the problem was the data. And it took me about two months to figure it out and he offered me a job, he said well, I was a consultant at the time, he says, "I'm offering you a job, you're going to run my IT." >> Great user experience but hard to count. >> (laughs) Hard to count. So that's when I, probably 1999 was when that happened. I went into data and started researching-- >> Sorry, so how long did it take you to figure that out? You said a couple of months? >> A couple of months, I think it was about two months. >> 'Cause jeez, it took Oracle what, 10 years to build Fusion with SOA? That's pretty good. (laughs) >> This was a little bit of luck. When we started integrating the applications we learned that the messages that we were sending back and forth didn't match, and we said, "Well that's impossible, it can't not match." But what didn't match was it was coming from one channel and being returned in another channel, and the returns showed here didn't balance with the returns on this side. So it was a data problem. >> So a forensics showdown. So what did you do after? >> After that I went into ICICI Bank which was a large bank in India who was trying to integrate their systems, and again, this was a data problem. But they heard me giving a talk at a conference on how SOA had solved the data challenge, and they said, "We're a bank with a wholesale, a retail, "and other divisions, "and we can't integrate the systems, can you?" I said, "Well yeah, I'd build a website "and make them web services and now what'll happen is "each of those'll kind of communicate." And I was at ICICI Bank for about six months in Mumbai, and finished that which was a success, came back and started consulting because now a lot of companies were really interested in this concept of Service Oriented Architectures. Back then when we first published on it, myself, Peter Aiken, and a gentleman named Joseph Burke published on it in 1996. The publisher didn't accept the book, it was a really interesting thing. We wrote the book called, "Services Based Architectures: A Way to Integrate Systems." And the way Wiley & Sons, or most publishers work is, they'll have three industry experts read your book and if they don't think what you're saying has any value, they, forget about it. So one guy said this is brilliant, one guy says, "These guys don't know what they're talking about," and the third guy says, "I don't even think what they're talking about is feasible." So they decided not to publish. Four years later it came back and said, "We want to publish the book," and Peter said, "You know what, they lost their chance." We were ahead of them by four years, they didn't understand the technology. So that was kind of cool. So from there I went into consulting, eventually took a position as the Head of Enterprise and Director of Enterprise Information Architecture with Walmart. And Walmart, as you know, is a huge entity, almost the size of the federal government. So to build an architecture that integrates Walmart would've been a challenge, a behemoth challenge, and I took it on with a phenomenal team. >> And when was this, like what timeframe? >> This was 2010, and by the end of 2010 we had presented an architecture to the CIO and the rest of the organization, and they came back to me about a week later and said, "Look, everybody agrees what you did was brilliant, "but nobody knows how to implement it. "So we're taking you away, "you're no longer Director of Information Architecture, "you're now Director of Enterprise Information Management. "Build it. "Prove that what you say you could do, you could do." So we built something called the Data CAFE, and CAFE was an acronym, it stood for: Collaborative Analytics Facility for the Enterprise. What we did was we took data from one of the divisions, because you didn't want to take on the whole beast, boil the ocean. We picked Sam's Club and we worked with their CFO, and because we had information about customers we were able to build a room with seven 80 inch monitors that surrounded anyone in the room. And in the center was the Cisco telecommunications so you could be a part of a meeting. >> The TelePresence. >> TelePresence. And we built one room in one facility, and one room in another facility, and we labeled the monitors, one red, one blue, one green, and we said, "There's got to be a way where we can build "data science so it's interactive, so somebody, "an executive could walk into the room, "touch the screen, and drill into features. "And in another room "the features would be changing simultaneously." And that's what we built. The room was brought up on Black Friday of 2013, and we were able to see the trends of sales on the East Coast that we quickly, the executives in the room, and these are the CEO of Walmart and the heads of Sam's Club and the like, they were able to change the distribution in the Mountain Time Zone and west time zones because of the sales on the East Coast gave them the idea, well these things are going to sell, and these things aren't. And they saw a tremendous increase in productivity. We received the 2014, my team received the 2014 Walmart Innovation Project of the Year. >> And that's no slouch. Walmart has always been heavily data-oriented. I don't know if it's urban legend or not, but the famous story in the '80s of the beer and the diapers, right? Walmart would position beer next to diapers, why would they do that? Well the father goes in to buy the diapers for the baby, picks up a six pack while he's on the way, so they just move those proximate to each other. (laughs) >> In terms of data, Walmart really learned that there's an advantage to understanding how to place items in places that, a path that you might take in a store, and knowing that path, they actually have a term for it, I believe it's called, I'm sorry, I forgot the name but it's-- >> Selling more stuff. (laughs) >> Yeah, it's selling more stuff. It's the way you position items on a shelf. And Walmart had the brilliance, or at least I thought it was brilliant, that they would make their vendors the data champion. So the vendor, let's say Procter & Gamble's a vendor, and they sell this one product the most. They would then be the champion for that aisle. Oh, it's called planogramming. So the planogramming, the way the shelves were organized, would be set up by Procter & Gamble for that entire area, working with all their other vendors. And so Walmart would give the data to them and say, "You do it." And what I was purporting was, well, we shouldn't just be giving the data away, we should be using that data. And that was the advent of that. From there I moved to Kimberly-Clark, I became Global Director of Enterprise Data Management and Analytics. Their challenge was they had different teams, there were four different instances of SAP around the globe. One for Latin America, one for North America called the Enterprise Edition, one for EMEA, Europe, Middle East, and Africa, and one for Asia-Pacific. Well when you have four different instances of SAP, that means your master data doesn't exist because the same thing that happens in this facility is different here. And every company faces this challenge. If they implement more than one of a system the specialty fields get used by different companies in different ways. >> The gold standard, the gold version. >> The golden version. So I built a team by bringing together all the different international teams, and created one team that was able to integrate best practices and standards around data governance, data quality. Built BI teams for each of the regions, and then a data science and advanced analytics team. >> Wow, so okay, so that makes you uniquely qualified to coach here at the conference. >> Oh, I don't know about that. (laughs) There are some real, there are some geniuses here. >> No but, I say that because these are your peeps. >> Yes, they are, they are. >> And so, you're a practitioner, this conference is all about practitioners talking to practitioners, it's content-heavy, There's not a lot of fluff. Lunches aren't sponsored, there's no lanyard sponsor and it's not like, you know, there's very subtle sponsor desks, you have to have sponsors 'cause otherwise the conference's not enabled, and you've got costs associated with it. But it's a very intimate event and I think you guys want to keep it that way. >> And I really believe you're dead-on. When you go to most industry conferences, the industry conferences, the sponsors, you know, change the format or are heavily into the format. Here you have industry thought leaders from all over the globe. CDOs of major Fortune 500 companies who are working with their peers and exchanging ideas. I've had conversations with a number of CDOs and the thought leadership at this conference, I've never seen this type of thought leadership in any conference. >> Yeah, I mean the percentage of presentations by practitioners, even when there's a vendor name, they have a practitioner, you know, internal practitioner presenting so it's 99.9% which is why people attend. We're moving venues next year, I understand. Just did a little tour of the new venue, so, going to be able to accommodate more attendees, so that's great. >> Yeah it is. >> So what are your objectives in thinking ahead a year from now? >> Well, you know, I'm taking over from my current peer, Dr. Arka Mukherjee, who just did a phenomenal job of finding speakers. People who are in the industry, who are presenting challenges, and allowing others to interact. So I hope could do a similar thing which is, find with my peers people who have real world challenges, bring them to the forum so they can be debated. On top of that, there are some amazing, you know, technology change is just so fast. One of the areas like big data I remember only five years ago the chart of big data vendors maybe had 50 people on it, now you would need the table to put all the vendors. >> Who's not a data vendor, you know? >> Who's not a data vendor? (laughs) So I would think the best thing we could do is, is find, just get all the CDOs and CDO-types into a room, and let us debate and talk about these points and issues. I've seen just some tremendous interactions, great questions, people giving advice to others. I've learned a lot here. >> And how about long term, where do you see this going? How many CDOs are there in the world, do you know? Is that a number that's known? >> That's a really interesting point because, you know, only five years ago there weren't that many CDOs to be called. And then Gartner four years ago or so put out an article saying, "Every company really should have a CDO." Not just for the purpose of advancing your data, and to Doug Laney's point that data is being monetized, there's a need to have someone responsible for information 'cause we're in the Information Age. And a CIO really is focused on infrastructure, making sure I've got my PCs, making sure I've got a LAN, I've got websites. The focus on data has really, because of the Information Age, has turned data into an asset. So organizations realize, if you utilize that asset, let me reverse this, if you don't use data as an asset, you will be out of business. I heard a quote, I don't know if it's true, "Only 10 years ago, 250 of the Fortune 10 no longer exists." >> Yeah, something like that, the turnover's amazing. >> Many of those companies were companies that decided not to make the change to be data-enabled, to make data decision processing. Companies still use data warehouses, they're always going to use them, and a warehouse is a rear-view mirror, it tells you what happened last week, last month, last year. But today's businesses work forward-looking. And just like driving a car, it'd be really hard to drive your car through a rear-view mirror. So what companies are doing today are saying, "Okay, let's start looking at this as forward-looking, "a prescriptive and predictive analytics, "rather than just what happened in the past." I'll give you an example. In a major company that is a supplier of consumer products, they were leading in the industry and their sales started to drop, and they didn't know why. Well, with a data science team, we were able to determine by pulling in data from the CDC, now these are sources that only 20 years ago nobody ever used to bring in data in the enterprise, now 60% of your data is external. So we brought in data from the CDC, we brought in data on maternal births from the national government, we brought in data from the Census Bureau, we brought in data from sources of advertising and targeted marketing towards mothers. Pulled all that data together and said, "Why are diaper sales down?" Well they were targeting the large regions of the country and putting ads in TV stations in New York and California, big population centers. Birth rates in population centers have declined. Birth rates in certain other regions, like the south, and the Bible Belt, if I can call it that, have increased. So by changing the marketing, their product sales went up. >> Advertising to Texas. >> Well, you know, and that brings to one of the points, I heard a lecture today about ethics. We made it a point at Walmart that if you ran a query that reduced a result to less than five people, we wouldn't allow you to see the result. Because, think about it, I could say, "What is my neighbor buying? "What are you buying?" So there's an ethical component to this as well. But that, you know, data is not political. Data is not chauvinistic. It doesn't discriminate, it just gives you facts. It's the interpretation of that that is hard CDOs, because we have to say to someone, "Look, this is the fact, and your 25 years "of experience in the business, "granted, is tremendous and it's needed, "but the facts are saying this, "and that would mean that the business "would have to change its direction." And it's hard for people to do, so it requires that. >> So whether it's called the chief data officer, whatever the data czar rubric is, the head of analytics, there's obviously the data quality component there whatever that is, this is the conference for, as I called them, your peeps, for that role in the organization. People often ask, "Will that role be around?" I think it's clear, it's solidifying. Yes, you see the chief digital officer emerging and there's a lot of tailwinds there, but the information quality component, the data architecture component, it's here to stay. And this is the premiere conference, the premiere event, that I know of anyway. There are a couple of others, perhaps, but it's great to see all the success. When I first came here in 2013 there were probably about 130 folks here. Today, I think there were 500 people registered almost. Next year, I think 600 is kind of the target, and I think it's very reasonable with the new space. So congratulations on all the success, and thank you for stepping up to the co-chair role, I really appreciate it. >> Well, let me tell you I thank you guys. You provide a voice at these IT conferences that we really need, and that is the ability to get the message out. That people do think and care, the industry is not thoughtless and heartless. With all the data breaches and everything going on there's a lot of fear, fear, loathing, and anticipation. But having your voice, kind of like ESPN and a sports show, gives the technology community, which is getting larger and larger by the day, a voice and we need that so, thank you. >> Well thank you, Robert. We appreciate that, it was great to have you on. Appreciate the time. >> Great to be here, thank you. >> All right, and thank you for watching. We'll be right back with out next guest as we wrap up day two of MIT CDOIQ. You're watching theCUBE. (futuristic music)

>> Live from San Francisco. It's the Cube covering artists. A conference twenty nineteen Brought to You by Four Scout >> Welcome back, everybody, Geoffrey. Here with the cue, we're in North America and the newly refinished Mosconi Center Downtown San Francisco in the force Cow boo. Happy to be here first time and we have our next guest. She's Charlotte Wiley, chief of staff from Symantec. Great to meet you. >> Nice to meet you, teacher. Thanks for having >> absolutely so impressions of the show. This is a crazy show. Forty dollars, people. Aren't many shows like this >> it issue just a little overwhelming. It's my second year here, and it's no less overwhelming. Second year here. It's, uh it's just prolific. Everything that say the session, the keynotes all day, all the networking, the basis. Amazing. >> So I'm curious how your perception has changed. I >> was looking at your background, Your hearing a financial institution before your own kind of the purchaser side of the house. >> Now you're over on >> this side of the house. How's that kind of change your perception when you walk this crazy floor, I imagine before you're like, Yeah, how am I going to digest all this? >> Well, no one wants to be my friend anymore, which is interesting. So, um, you know, working on the vendor side of the defense is the dark side. It's It's a very different experience. When I came here a couple years go to bank. Everyone wants to talk to you. Or is this time? Is this a healthy, competitive nature going on between all the vendors, which is great. You want to see that? Yeah. It sze got the same enthusiasm. Same vase on the floor, which is wonderful. >> So semantics. Been a leader in the space for a very, very long time. One of the original, you know, kind of original security companies back in the day when we're just trying to protect that. You know, I guess our Web browser right from from some malicious activity. Wow. The world has changed. And one of the big new components now is his internet of things. In this tie of it with ot operations technology. You know something you've spent some time on a wonderful get your take on how that's increasing the threat surface, you know, increasing the complexity. And yet there's still a lot of value there if you can bring those systems together. >> Yeah, absolutely. So I think that Kate thing is this. You know, this simplicity here is, uh What? What you don't know, You can see. And what you can't see you can't monitor on DH. That's the key thing to remember when you think about t n OT so with Coyote specifically, if you, uh you've definitely got a nice routine, you network somewhere everyone has. But if you can't see that thing, it is incredibly vulnerable Throat vector for any organization. So really, it's it's a point of egress for any doubt of ex filtration. And if you've got someone compromised in the network already on your way, see it as being a very opportune ingress point to getting a lateral move. Right. So they are incredibly, inherently vulnerable. Right? These things are they're usually hard coded, authenticated. They are. They have massive under. Police often remain unpatched. When you cannot see, you don't know, Right? So some of the dirty side of the fence, right? The same problem exists. They typically were not built to connect to the Internet. Right. So this is something very new that we're trying to tackle right. And one of the key things I think about is that it's probably a little bit few tile to make these OT and I and I. A device is inherently secure. You think about in twenty twenty. We're going to see like twenty five billion devices proliferating our globe, which is incredible. So how do we how do we make it more school? Let's back off from becoming inherently secure. Let's up on the visibility. If you visualize you, Khun Segment, and you can enforce. And then you can take control of what has access to your network, right? A >> lot of interesting conversations about this today, obviously or in the force cow boo. But I think one of the people earlier said they had fifty percent more devices on the network than they anticipated. And it turns out his remote offices and people are plugging things in. Another little factoid is that maybe that hit no s on that device is actually windows in tea. Is it a tea? A little box. And nobody even knew because you knew that's an embedded in team. But then on the other side, we had a lease on, and she was talking about great example on security cameras and just that a lot of these newer devices that you can connect have a plethora of services packaged in on the assumption that you might use them. So rather than have not too many, they put them all in. But you don't necessarily need to turn all those things on. So again, you're just opening up this huge kind of exposure. >> Huge explosion. That's it. I think it's a really good conversation to have with your stakeholders about talking about the target breach. So when people start to understand that that really originated from a hate tax system, right compromise haystack system. So when you're talking about T initialization, that's a really good years case to say. Look, this is a huge bridge that was compromised from because we didn't They didn't have visibility over the anxiety. >> It's funny if you each Max keep coming up, over and over and over there. Obviously the biggest threat that way have I'm jacket to see if I could see like a movie with me. Nasty HBC think come until that munching up the company. But it's funny. Different topic. Shifting gears completely, really, about kind of diversity, diversity of opinion, diversity of perspective, diversity of thought and how that's a really important and effective tool use in trying to accomplish missions. In this really crazy, complex task, you can't abs single point of view, single point of reference, kind of a single pain that you think about. I know that's something that you've been in a lot of time on, >> so my role it's semantic because Chief of staff, I own the diversity agenda for the global security office. And it's bean aerial laser focus on me for the past twelve months, which is our industry has a systemic problem around attracting and retaining talent from diverse backgrounds. Right? We're gonna tackle it head on on We don't really successfully in semantics. Oh, wait. Give this fabulous mandate through to our leadership who got on board with laser focus around, making sure that we get a diverse slate of candidates when we bring in new people and that that translated incredibly well. So we saw a rise of interview to conversion. Foreign ft for females in six months off forty percent >> fourteen or forty four zero for zero. >> So just by making it part of the interviewing experience. Having a diverse slate of candidates, making sure that we're really giving a foreign opportunities coming right really has changed playing Plainfield. >> And then the other thing, of course, is the retention, which is a big problem for attention that we're, you know, women dropping out and not coming back. >> That's and this every organization has to step up to make sure that they're waiting, but their making a workforce that is flexible, that accommodates so some of that. Some of the mental load that women have, whether it's through a child, care whether it's to do with older parents. But also when we talk about diversity, it's nothing. You know just about the gender piece, right? We're going to accommodate for other people as well underrepresented minorities. Early Korea, Different people have different socio economic backgrounds, maybe haven't come from a typical university training course, right, Something that we've focused on heavily. We've been working with a large enough profits to bring in early career guys who have not had a university background who may have had a really rough time coming out of school, getting them in, training them up through internships, bringing them up to speed over six months and converting them into FDA, which I feel is really a way tio to build a diverse workforce and get people an opportunity that didn't have it >> now was someone spearheading that before you came on border was there Was there an effort that really kind of put a dedicated resource on it when you when you took it over? >> So I took over about a year ago and I double down on the effort. We were working with Europe before that. Had a fantastic colleague was doing a lot of work with Europe on. We're just seeing fabulous results with converted nearly thirty three percent of our internships into FT. >> Thirty three and you're not in those thirty three or not coming from, you know, kind of a classic. They're not coming pig population. >> Absolutely these air IGA passionate, enthusiastic young people who have a tenacity to just pick things up because they're so grateful to be there right there, so happy to be given the opportunity. And it's some It's an untapped resource that I think a lot of people who are looking to have solved aside the security talent shortages should be looking into great that we get programs in place for a Girl Scout middle school. But let's think about alternative ways of getting new talent in. And I think that they're not for profit right way after >> such a big problem. And like you say, it's a big problem, you know, from from little girls. And, you know, all the way up to mid mid career women that air dropping out and not coming back before you even get into the boardroom. We work with a ton of organization like Athena Alliance with towards that the boardroom level all the way down to Grace Hopper. You know, this working more kind of college graduate level girls intact? I mean, there's a lot of luckily, a lot of people are trying to focus on the problem, but unfortunately, the numbers or not turning in the correct direction, they're actually turning in the wrong direction. Yeah, >> so really, that's it for me. It's about laser focus. You really got it. If you make your party your agenda making party returned right? Don't give it. The nursery had not. Don't say that you will do the things actually commit to it and get it done right. I'm not a huge fan of talk. It's Qatargas work on. So, yeah, I think there's a lot of opportunity. The people they don't step up to the great doing enough >> to to your earlier first line, right? If you're not measuring it, you know, and tracking against it, how do you know if you're being silly and what it's under served? You have to give it a little juice, right? You can't just have to expect the status quo to suddenly change, right? >> Absolutely metrics. Incredibly employed. And start with you metrics. Dashboard record where your tracking, in terms of your representation of females, underrepresented minorities. Your bets. You're early Korea. Really? What you want to see is a huge influx or the interviewing stage into the into the FT conversion. You want to see an influx in your leadership. You want more women in your leadership team because that's the way to drive a better female pipeline, right? Same goes on because I'm are minority. Same guys. Early career. >> Yeah, so important that they look up and see somebody that looks like one hundred percent C. C an opportunity to be that person, something alright. Charlotte. Well, thanks for, uh, for taking a few minutes of your day. And great Teo learned about all your What you working on? That's >> great. Thanks. Having >> alright? She Charlotte? I'm Jeff. You're watching the Cube? Where are, say twenty nineteen in the force Cow booth. Thanks for watching. >> We'LL see you next time.

live from the Fairmont Hotel in San Jose California it's the queue at big data sv 2015 hello everyone welcome back this is the cube our flagship program we go out to the events they strike this evil noise i'm john furrier we're here with IBM to talk about big data big data analytics and we're doing a first-ever crowd chat simulcast of live feed with IBM so guys we're going to try this out it's like go to crouch at dan / Hadoop next and join the conversation and our guests here Rob Thomas vice president product development big data analyst at IBM and beth smith general manager of IBM analytics platform guys welcome to welcome to the cube thank you welcome back and so IBM mostly we're super excited to next week as I was the interconnect you're bigger than you guys mashed up three shows for the mega shows and and Aerosmith's playing so it's going to say I'm from the Boston air so I'm really excited about you know Aerosmith and all the activities of social lounge and and whatnot but we've been following you guys the transformation of IBM is really impressive you guys certainly think a lot of heat in the press in terms of some of the performance size in the business but it's pumping right now you guys seem to have great positioning the stories are hanging together a huge customer base huge services so we're at the Big Data world which is tends to be startup driven from the past few years over the past phase one the big cuppies came in and started saying hey you know there's a big market our customers see demand and that so I got your take on on as we're coming in to interconnect next next week what is the perspective of big data asli Watson has garnered headlines from powering toys to jeopardy to solving huge world problems that's a big data problem you guys are not new to Big Data so when you look at this big data week here and Silicon Valley what's the take sure so I'll start often embedded Bethke night in so our big focus is how we start to bring data to the masses and we start to think in terms of personas data science and plays an increasingly important role around big data how people are accessing that the developer community and then obviously the line of business community which is the client set that I've been serving four years but the announcements that we've made this week around Hadoop are really focused on the first two personas in terms of data scientists how they start to get better value out of Hadoop leveraging different tools we'll talk about what some of those are and so we're really starting to change it about Hadoop results me about insight it's not about infrastructure infrastructure is interesting but it's really about what you're getting out of it so that's why we're approaching it that way it's how well it has naturally the IBM strategy around data cloud and engagement and data is really about using the insights which like Rob said it's about the value can get from the data and how that can be used in to transform professions and industries and I think when we bring it back to Big Data and the topic of a doob I think frankly it has gotten to a point that clients are really beginning to say it's time to scale they're seeing the value in the technology what it can bring how it gives them some diversity in their data and analytics platform and they're ready to announce scale on their workloads as a part of it so the theme is Hadoop next okay so that takes us right to the next point which is okay what's next is a phase one okay we got some base position validation okay this new environments customers don't want that so what so what is next i mean we're earring things like in memories hot aussie spark has proven that there's an action in member that that kind of says okay analytics at the speed of business is something that's important you guys are all over that and we've heard some things from you guys so so what's how do we get to the next part where we take Hadoop as an infrastructure opportunity and put it into practice for solutions at what what are the key things that you guys see happening that must happen for the large customers to be successful so I think that actually ties into the announcements we made this week around the open data platform because that's about getting that core platform to ensure that their standardization around it there's interoperability around it and then that's the base and that vendors and clients are coming together do that and to really enable and facilitate the community to be able to standardize around that then it's about the value on top of that around it etc it's about the workloads and what could be brought to bear to extend up that how do you apply it to real time streaming how do you add things like machine learning how do you deal with things like text analytics I mean we have a we have a client situation where the client took 4 billion tweets and were able to analyze that to identify over a hundred and ten million profiles of individuals and then by integrating and analyzing that data with the internal data sources of about seven or eight different data sources they were able to narrow into 1.7 million profiles that matched at at least ninety percent precision you know now they've got data that they can apply on buying patterns and stuff it's about that it's about going up the stack we're going to talk for hours my mind's exploding privacy creepy I mean a personas is relevant now you talk about personalization I mean collective intelligence has been an AI concepts we try not to be creepy okay cool but now so that brings us to the next level I mean you guys were talk about cognitives on that is a word you guys kick around also systems of engagement systems of records an old term that's been around in the old data warehousing dates fenced-off resources of disk and data but now with systems of engagement real-time in the moment immersive experience which is essentially the social and/or kind of mobile experience what does that mean how do you guys get there how do you make it so it's better for the users more secure or I mean these are hot button issues that kind of lead us right to that point so I'll take you to that a couple ways so so first of all your first question round head tube next so Hadoop was no longer just an IT discussion that's what I've seen changed dramatically in the last six months I was with the CEO of one of the world's largest banks just three days ago and the CEO is asking about Hadoop so there's a great interest in this topic and so so why so why would a CEO even care I think one is people are starting to understand the use cases of the place so that talks about entity extraction so how you start to look at customer records that you have internally in your systems are record to your point John and then you you know how do you match that against what's happening in the social world which is more or the engagement piece so there's a clear use case around that that changes how clients you know work with their with their customers so so that's one reason second is huge momentum in this idea of a logical data warehouse we no longer think of the data infrastructure as oh it's a warehouse or it's a database physically tied to something not tied to just what relational store so you can have a warehouse but you can scale in Hadoop you can provision data back and forth you can write queries from either side that's what we're doing is we're enabling clients to modernize their infrastructure with this type of a logit logical data warehouse approach when you take those kinds of use cases and then you put the data science tools on top of it suddenly our customers can develop a different relationship with their customers and they can really start to change the way that they're doing business Beth I want to get your comments we have the Crouch at crowd chat / a dupe next some commentary coming in ousley transforming industries billion tweets killer for customer experience so customer experience and then also the link about the data science into high gear so let's bring that now into the data science so the logical you know stores okay Nick sands with virtualization things are moving around you have some sort of cognitive engines out there that can overlay on top of that customer experience and data science how are they inter playing because this came out on some of the retail event at New York City that happened last week good point of purchase personalization customer experience hated science it's all rolling together and what does that mean unpack that for us and simplify it if you can oh wows complexing is a big topic you know it's a big topic so a couple of different points so first of all I think it is about enabling the data scientists to be able to do what they their specialty is and the technologies have advanced to allow them to do that and then it's about them having the the data and the different forms of data and the analytics at their fingertips to be able to apply that I the other point in it though is that the lines are blurring between the person that is the data scientist and the business user that needs to worry about how do they attract new customers or how do they you know create new business models and what do they use as a part of do you think we're also seeing that line blurring one of the things that we're trying to do is is help the industry around growing skills so we actually have big data University we have what two hundred and thirty thousand participants and this online free education and we're expanding that topic now to again go up the stack to go into the things that data scientists want to deal with like machine learning to go into things that the business user really wants to now be able to capture it's a part of it trying to ask you guys kind of more could be a product question and/or kind of a market question at IBM's Ted at IBM event in he talked about a big medical example in one of her favorite use cases but she made a comment in their active data active date is not a new term for the data geeks out there but we look at data science lag is really important Realty near real time is not going to make it for airplanes and people crossing the street with mobile devices so real real time means like that second latency is really important speed so active date is a big part of that so can you guys talk about passive active data and how that relates to computing and because it's all kind of coming to get it's not an obvious thing but she highlighted that in her presentation because I see with medical medical care is obviously urgent you know in the moment kind of thing so if you would what does that all mean I mean is that something custom Street paying attention to is it viable is it doable so certainly a viable I mean it's a huge opportunity and i'd say probably most famous story we have around that is the work that we did at the university of toronto at the Hospital for Sick Children where we were using real-time streaming algorithms and a real-time streaming engine to monitor instance in the neonatal care facility and this was a million data points coming off of a human body monitoring in real time and so why is that relevant I mean it's pretty pretty basic actually if you extract the data you eat yell it somewhere you load in a warehouse then you start to say well what's going on it's way too late you know we're talking about you know at the moment you need to know what's happening and so it started as a lot was in the medical field would you notice there's some examples that you mentioned but real time is now going well beyond the medical field you know places from retail at the point of sale and how things are happening to even things like farming so real time is here to stay we don't really view that as different from what I would describe as Hadoop next because streaming to me as part of what we're doing with a dupe and with spark which we'll talk about in a bit so it's certainly it is it is the new paradigm for many clients but it's going to be much more common actually if i can add there's a client North Carolina State University it's where I went to school so it's a if it's a client that I talk about a lot but they in addition to what they do with their students they also work with a lot of businesses own different opportunities that may that they may have and they have a big data and analytics sort of extended education business education project as a part of that they are now prepared to be able to analyze one petabyte in near real time so the examples that you and Rob talked about of the real world workloads that are going to exist where real time matters are there there's no doubt about it they're not going away and the technology is prepared to be able to handle the massive amount of data and analytics that needs to happen right there in real time you know that's a great exact point I mean these flagship examples are kind of like lighthouses for people to look at and kind of the ships that kind of come into the harbor if you will for other customers as you always have the early adopters can you guys talk about where the mainstream market is right now I'll see from a services standpoint you guys have great presence and a lot of accounts where are these ships coming into which Harper where the lighthouse is actually medical you mentioned some of those examples are bringing in the main customers is it the new apps that are driving it what innovations and what are the forces and what are the customers doing in the main stream right now where are they in the evolution of moving to these kind of higher-end examples so I mean so Hadoop I'd say this is the year Hadoop where clients have become serious about Hadoop like I said it's now become a board-level topic so it's it's at the forefront right now I see clients being very aggressive about trying out new use cases everybody really across every interest industry is looking for one thing which is growth and the way that you get growth if you're a bank is you're not really going to change your asset structure what you're going to change is how you engage with clients and how you personalized offers if your retailer you're not going to grow by simply adding more stores it might be a short term growth impact but you're going to change how you're engaging with clients and so these use cases are very real and they're happening now Hadoop is a bore group discussion or big day I just didn't see you formula we should have more Hadoop or is it you know I see I've seen it over and over again I'll tell you where you see a lot from his companies that are private equity-owned the private equity guys have figured out that there's savings and there's innovation here every company i worked with that has private equity ownership Hadoop is a boardroom discussion and the idea is how do we modernize the infrastructure because it's it's because of other forces though it's because of mobile it's because of cloud that comes to the forefront so absolutely so let's take Hadoop so I do bits great bad just great a lot of innovations going on there boardroom in these private equity because one they're cutting edge probably they're like an investment they want to see I realized pretty quickly now speed is critical right I would infer that was coming from the private equity side speed is critical right so speed to value what does that mean for ibn and your customers how do you guys deliver the speed to value is that's one of the things that comes out on all the premises of all the conversations is hey you can do things faster now so value on the business side what do you guys see that sure so a a lot of different ways to approach that so we believe that as I said when I said before it's not just about the infrastructure it's about the insight we've built a lot of analytic capabilities into what we're doing around a dupe and spark so that clients can get the answers faster so one thing that we're going to be we have a session here at strata this week talking about our new innovation big R which is our our algorithms which are the only our algorithms that you can run natively on Hadoop where your statistical programmers can suddenly start to you know analyze data and you know drive that to decision make it as an example so we believe that by providing the analytics on top of the infrastructure you can you can change how clients are getting value out of that so how do we do it quickly we've got IBM SoftLayer so we've got our Hadoop infrastructure up on the cloud so anybody can go provision something and get started and ours which is not something that was the case even a couple years ago and so speed is important but the tools and how you get the insight is equally important how about speed 22 value from a customer deployment standpoint is it the apps or is it innovating on existing what do you sing well I think it's both actually um and and so you talked earlier about system of engagement vs system of record you know and I think at the end of the day for clients is really about systems of insight which is some combination of that right we tend to thank the systems of engagement or the newer things and the newer applications and we tend to thank the systems of record are the older ones but I think it's a combination of it and we see it show up in different ways so I'll take an example of telco and we have a solution on the now factory and this is now about applying analytics in real time about the network and the dynamics so that for example the operator has a better view of what's happening for their customers they're in users and they can tell that an application has gone down and that customers have now switched all of a sudden using a competitive application on their mobile devices you know that's different and that is that new applications or old or is it the combination and I think at the end of the day it really comes to a combination I love these systems of insight i'm just going to write that down here inside the inside the crowd chat so i got to talk about the the holy grail for big data analytics and big data from your perspective ideas perspective and to where you guys are partnering I'll see here there's a show of rich targets of a queue hires acquisitions partnerships I mean it's really a frill ground certainly Silicon Valley and and in the growth of a big data cloud mobile and social kind of these infrared photography biz is a message we've heard so what is the holy grail and then what are you guys looking for in partnerships and within the community of startups and or other alliances sure you want to start with the Holy Grail me yeah so so you know I think at the end of the day it is about using technology for business value and business outcome I you know I really think that's what said the spirit of it and so if I tell you why we have for example increased our attention and investment around this topic it's because of that it's because of what Rob said earlier when he said the state that clients are now in um so that's what I think is really important there and I think it's only going to be successful if it's done based own standards and something that is in support of you know heterogeneous environments I mean that's the world of technology that we live in and that's a critical element of it which leads to why we are a part of the Open Data Platform initiative so on the on the the piece of analytics I was just cus our comment about our for example I was just mentioning the crowd chat I had Microsoft just revolution analytics which is not our which is different community is there a land-grab going on between the big guys of you know IBM's a big company what do you guys see in that kind of area terms acquisition targets yeah man I think the numbers would say there's not a land-grab I don't think the MMA numbers have changed at a macro level at all in the last couple years I mean we're very opportunistic in our strategy right we look for things that augment what we do I think you know it's related to partner on your comment your question on partnering but we do acquisitions is not only about what that company does but it's about how does it fit within what IBM already does because we're trying to you know we're going after a rising tide in terms of how we deliver what clients need I think some companies make that mistake they think that if they have a great product that's relevant to us maybe maybe not but it's about how it fits in what we're doing and that's how we look at all of our partnerships really and you know we partner with global systems integrators even though we have one with an IBM we partner with ISVs application developers the big push this week as I described before is around data scientists so we're rolling out data science education on Big Data university because we think that data scientists will quickly find that the best place to do that is on an IBM platform because it's the best tools and if they can provide better insight to their companies or to their clients they're going to be better off so I was so yes that was the commenting on and certainly the end of last week and earlier this week about that Twitter and it's a lot of common in Twitter's figured out and people are confused by Twitter versus facebook and I know IBM has a relation but we're so just that's why pops in my head and I was are saying HP Buddha's got a great value and so I was on the side of Twitter's a winner i love twitter i love the company misunderstood certainly i think in this market where there's waves coming in more and more there's a lot of misunderstanding and i think i want to get your perspective you can share with the folks out there what is that next way because it's confusing out there you guys are insiders IBM i would say like twitter is winning doing very well certainly we're close to you guys we are we're deeply reporting on IBM so we can see the momentum and the positioning it's all in line what we see is that is where the outcomes will end up being for customers but there's still a lot of naysayers out there certainly you guys had your share as as to where's as an example so what is the big misunderstanding that you think is out there around the market we're in and what's the next wave as always waves coming in if you're not out in front that next wave usually driftwood as the old expression goes so what is that big misunderstanding and this kind of converged from a hyper targeted with analytics this is all new stuff huge opportunities huge shifts and inflection point as Bob picciano said on the cube is its kind of both going on the same time shift and it point so what's misunderstood and what's that next big waves so let me start with the next big way is that I'll back into the misunderstanding so the next big wave to me is machine learning and how do you start to take the data assets that you have and through machine learning and the application of those type of algorithms you start to generate better insights or outcomes and the reason i think is the next big wave is it's it may be one of the last competitive motes out there if you think about it if you have a a corpus of data that's unique to you and you can practice machine learning on that and have that you know either data that you can sell or to feed into your core business that's something that nobody else can replicate so it becomes incredibly powerful so one example I'll share with you and I want to bring you my book but it's actually not getting published next week since so maybe next week but so Wiley's publishing a book I wrote and one of the examples I give is a company by the name of co-star which I think very few people have heard of co-star is in the commercial real estate business they weren't even around a decade ago they have skyrocketed you know from zero to five hundred million dollars in revenue and it's because they have data on four million commercial properties out there who else has that absolutely nobody has that kind of reach and so they've got a unique data asset they can apply things like machine learning and statistics to that and therefore anybody who wants to do anything commercial real estate has to start with them so I pointed you're starting to get the point where you have some businesses where data is the product it's not an enabler it's the actual product I think that's probably one of the big misunderstandings out there is that you know data is just something that serves our existing products or existing services we're moving to a world where data is the product and that's the moat I wrote a post in 2008 called data is the new development kit and what you're basically saying is that's the competitive advantage a business user can make any innovation observation about data and not be a scientist and change the game that's what you were saying earlier similar right that's right okay so next big wave misunderstanding what do you wait bet what's your take on what are people not getting what is Wall Street what is potential the VCG really on the front end of some of the innovation but what is the general public not getting I mean we are in shift and an inflection what's it what's the big shift and misunderstanding going on so so I I would tend to you know actually agree with with Rob that I think folks aren't yet really appreciating and I guess I would twist it a little bit and say the insight instead of just the data but but they're not realizing what that is and what it's going to give us the opportunity for you know I would retire early if I actually could predict everything that was going to happen but but you know yeah but if you think about it you know if you think about you know mid to late 90s and what we would have all fault that the internet was going to allow us to do compared to what it actually allowed us to do is probably like night and day and I think the the time we're in now when you take data and you take mobility and you take cloud and you take these systems of engagement and the fact the way people individuals actually want to do things is is similar but almost like on steroids to what we were dealing with in the mid-90s or so and so you know the possibilities are frankly endless and and I think that's part of what people aren't necessarily realizing is that they have to think about that insight that data that actually has some value to it in very different ways there's a lot of disruptive enablers out Dunham's there's a lot to look at but finding which ones will be the biggest right it's hard I mean you get paid a lot of money to do that is if you can figure it out and keep it a secret um but you didn't you machine learning is now out there you just shared with us out competitive advantage so everyone knows know everyone kind of new kind of in the inside but but not everybody's using it right i mean i think another example a company like into it has done a great job of they started off as a software company they've become a data company i think what you what i've observed in all these companies is you can build a business model that's effectively recession proof because data becomes the IP in the organization and so I don't I actually you know I think for us those are the live in the world we this is well understood I don't think it's that well understood yet yeah insiders mic right and you know when we first started doing big data research and working with thousands of clients around the world there were there were six basic use cases it started of course with the customer the the end customer and the customer 360 and that sort of thing and went through a number of different things around optimization etc but the additional one is about those new business models and you know that is clearly in the last 12 to 18 months has become a lot more of what the topic is when I'm talking to clients and I think we will see that expand even more as we go in the future we've a lot of activity on the crowd chatter crowd chatter net / Hadoop necks and I'll mentioned we can probably extend time on that if you guys want to keep it keep it going conversation is awesome and we did getting the hook here so we'll remove the conversation to crouch at totnes Esther Dube next great thought leadership and I can go on this stuff for an hour you guys are awesome great to have you on the cube and so much to talk about a lot of ground will certainly see it in to connect go final question for you guys is what do you guys see for this week real quick summarize what do you expect to see it unfold for a big data week here at Silicon Valley Big Data asked me so I think you know a lot of the what we talked about machine learning is going to be a big topic I think there'll be a lot of discussion around the open data platform that Beth mentioned before it's a big move that we made along with another group supporting the apache software foundation I think that that's a big thing for this week but it should be exciting alright guys thanks for coming out to be IBM here inside the cube we're live in Silicon Valley would be right back with our next guest after the strip break I'm Jennifer this is the cube we write back