(upbeat music) >> Narrator: theCUBE's live coverage is made possible by funding from Dell Technologies: creating technologies that drive human progress. (upbeat music) >> Welcome back to the Fira in Barcelona. You're watching theCUBE's Coverage day two of MWC 23. Check out SiliconANGLE.com for all the news, John Furrier in our Palo Alto studio, breaking that down. But we're here live Dave Vellante, Dave Nicholson and Lisa Martin. We're really excited. We're going to talk qubits. Vanessa Diaz is here. She's CEO of LuxQuanta And Antonio Acin is a professor of ICFO. Folks, welcome to theCUBE. We're going to talk quantum. Really excited about that. >> Vanessa: Thank you guys. >> What does quantum have to do with the network? Tell us. >> Right, so we are actually leaving the second quantum revolution. So the first one actually happened quite a few years ago. It enabled very much the communications that we have today. So in this second quantum revolution, if in the first one we learn about some very basic properties of quantum physics now our scientific community is able to actually work with the systems and ask them to do things. So quantum technologies mean right now, three main pillars, no areas of exploration. The first one is quantum computing. Everybody knows about that. Antonio knows a lot about that too so he can explain further. And it's about computers that now can do wonder. So the ability of of these computers to compute is amazing. So they'll be able to do amazing things. The other pillar is quantum communications but in fact it's slightly older than quantum computer, nobody knows that. And we are the ones that are coming to actually counteract the superpowers of quantum computers. And last but not least quantum sensing, that's the the application of again, quantum physics to measure things that were impossible to measure in with such level of quality, of precision than before. So that's very much where we are right now. >> Okay, so I think I missed the first wave of quantum computing Because, okay, but my, our understanding is ones and zeros, they can be both and the qubits aren't that stable, et cetera. But where are we today, Antonio in terms of actually being able to apply quantum computing? I'm inferring from what Vanessa said that we've actually already applied it but has it been more educational or is there actual work going on with quantum? >> Well, at the moment, I mean, typical question is like whether we have a quantum computer or not. I think we do have some quantum computers, some machines that are able to deal with these quantum bits. But of course, this first generation of quantum computers, they have noise, they're imperfect, they don't have many qubits. So we have to understand what we can do with these quantum computers today. Okay, this is science, but also technology working together to solve relevant problems. So at this moment is not clear what we can do with present quantum computers but we also know what we can do with a perfect quantum computer without noise with many quantum bits, with many qubits. And for instance, then we can solve problems that are out of reach for our classical computers. So the typical example is the problem of factorization that is very connected to what Vanessa does in her company. So we have identified problems that can be solved more efficiently with a quantum computer, with a very good quantum computer. People are working to have this very good quantum computer. At the moment, we have some imperfect quantum computers, we have to understand what we can do with these imperfect machines. >> Okay. So for the first wave was, okay, we have it working for a little while so we see the potential. Okay, and we have enough evidence almost like a little experiment. And now it's apply it to actually do some real work. >> Yeah, so now there is interest by companies so because they see a potential there. So they are investing and they're working together with scientists. We have to identify use cases, problems of relevance for all of us. And then once you identify a problem where a quantum computer can help you, try to solve it with existing machines and see if you can get an advantage. So now the community is really obsessed with getting a quantum advantage. So we really hope that we will get a quantum advantage. This, we know we will get it. We eventually have a very good quantum computer. But we want to have it now. And we're working on that. We have some results, there were I would say a bit academic situation in which a quantum advantage was proven. But to be honest with you on a really practical problem, this has not happened yet. But I believe the day that this happens and I mean it will be really a game changing. >> So you mentioned the word efficiency and you talked about the quantum advantage. Is the quantum advantage a qualitative advantage in that it is fundamentally different? Or is it simply a question of greater efficiency, so therefore a quantitative advantage? The example in the world we're used to, think about a card system where you're writing information on a card and putting it into a filing cabinet and then you want to retrieve it. Well, the information's all there, you can retrieve it. Computer system accelerates that process. It's not doing something that is fundamentally different unless you accept that the speed with which these things can be done gives it a separate quality. So how would you characterize that quantum versus non quantum? Is it just so much horse power changes the game or is it fundamentally different? >> Okay, so from a fundamental perspective, quantum physics is qualitatively different from classical physics. I mean, this year the Nobel Prize was given to three experimentalists who made experiments that proved that quantum physics is qualitatively different from classical physics. This is established, I mean, there have been experiments proving that. Now when we discuss about quantum computation, it's more a quantitative difference. So we have problems that you can solve, in principle you can solve with the classical computers but maybe the amount of time you need to solve them is we are talking about centuries and not with your laptop even with a classic super computer, these machines that are huge, where you have a building full of computers there are some problems for which computers take centuries to solve them. So you can say that it's quantitative, but in practice you may even say that it's impossible in practice and it will remain impossible. And now these problems become feasible with a quantum computer. So it's quantitative but almost qualitative I would say. >> Before we get into the problems, 'cause I want to understand some of those examples, but Vanessa, so your role at LuxQuanta is you're applying quantum in the communication sector for security purposes, correct? >> Vanessa: Correct. >> Because everybody talks about how quantum's going to ruin our lives in terms of taking all our passwords and figuring everything out. But can quantum help us defend against quantum and is that what you do? >> That's what we do. So one of the things that Antonio's explaining so our quantum computer will be able to solve in a reasonable amount of time something that today is impossible to solve unless you leave a laptop or super computer working for years. So one of those things is cryptography. So at the end, when use send a message and you want to preserve its confidentiality what you do is you destroy it but following certain rules which means they're using some kind of key and therefore you can send it through a public network which is the case for every communication that we have, we go through the internet and then the receiver is going to be able to reassemble it because they have that private key and nobody else has. So that private key is actually made of computational problems or mathematical problems that are very, very hard. We're talking about 40 years time for a super computer today to be able to hack it. However, we do not have the guarantee that there is already very smart mind that already have potentially the capacity also of a quantum computer even with enough, no millions, but maybe just a few qubits, it's enough to actually hack this cryptography. And there is also the fear that somebody could actually waiting for quantum computing to finally reach out this amazing capacity we harvesting now which means capturing all this confidential information storage in it. So when we are ready to have the power to unlock it and hack it and see what's behind. So we are talking about information as delicate as governmental, citizens information related to health for example, you name it. So what we do is we build a key to encrypt the information but it's not relying on a mathematical problem it's relying on the laws of quantum physics. So I'm going to have a channel that I'm going to pump photons there, light particles of light. And that quantum channel, because of the laws of physics is going to allow to detect somebody trying to sneak in and seeing the key that I'm establishing. If that happens, I will not create a key if it's clean and nobody was there, I'll give you a super key that nobody today or in the future, regardless of their computational power, will be able to hack. >> So it's like super zero trust. >> Super zero trust. >> Okay so but quantum can solve really challenging mathematical problems. If you had a quantum computer could you be a Bitcoin billionaire? >> Not that I know. I think people are, okay, now you move me a bit of my comfort zone. Because I know people have working on that. I don't think there is a lot of progress at least not that I am aware of. Okay, but I mean, in principle you have to understand that our society is based on information and computation. Computers are a key element in our society. And if you have a machine that computes better but much better than our existing machines, this gives you an advantage for many things. I mean, progress is locked by many computational problems we cannot solve. We can want to have better materials better medicines, better drugs. I mean this, you have to solve hard computational problems. If you have machine that gives you machine learning, big data. I mean, if you have a machine that gives you an advantage there, this may be a really real change. I'm not saying that we know how to do these things with a quantum computer. But if we understand how this machine that has been proven more powerful in some context can be adapted to some other context. I mean having a much better computer machine is an advantage. >> When? When are we going to have, you said we don't really have it today, we want it today. Are we five years away, 10 years away? Who's working on this? >> There are already quantum computers are there. It's just that the capacity that they have of right now is the order of a few hundred qubits. So people are, there are already companies harvesting, they're actually the companies that make these computers they're already putting them. People can access to them through the cloud and they can actually run certain algorithms that have been tailor made or translated to the language of a quantum computer to see how that performs there. So some people are already working with them. There is billions of investment across the world being put on different flavors of technologies that can reach to that quantum supremacy that we are talking about. The question though that you're asking is Q day it sounds like doomsday, you know, Q day. So depending on who you talk to, they will give you a different estimation. So some people say, well, 2030 for example but perhaps we could even think that it could be a more aggressive date, maybe 2027. So it is yet to be the final, let's say not that hard deadline but I think that the risk, that it can actually bring is big enough for us to pay attention to this and start preparing for it. So the end times of cryptography that's what quantum is doing is we have a system here that can actually prevent all your communications from being hacked. So if you think also about Q day and you go all the way back. So whatever tools you need to protect yourself from it, you need to deploy them, you need to see how they fit in your organization, evaluate the benefits, learn about it. So that, how close in time does that bring us? Because I believe that the time to start thinking about this is now. >> And it's likely it'll be some type of hybrid that will get us there, hybrid between existing applications. 'Cause you have to rewrite or write new applications and that's going to take some time. But it sounds like you feel like this decade we will see Q day. What probability would you give that? Is it better than 50/50? By 2030 we'll see Q day. >> But I'm optimistic by nature. So yes, I think it's much higher than 50. >> Like how much higher? >> 80, I would say yes. I'm pretty confident. I mean, but what I want to say also usually when I think there is a message here so you have your laptop, okay, in the past I had a Spectrum This is very small computer, it was more or less the same size but this machine is much more powerful. Why? Because we put information on smaller scales. So we always put information in smaller and smaller scale. This is why here you have for the same size, you have much more information because you put on smaller scales. So if you go small and small and small, you'll find the quantum word. So this is unavoidable. So our information devices are going to meet the quantum world and they're going to exploit it. I'm fully convinced about this, maybe not for the quantum computer we're imagining now but they will find it and they will use quantum effects. And also for cryptography, for me, this is unavoidable. >> And you brought the point there are several companies working on that. I mean, I can get quantum computers on in the cloud and Amazon and other suppliers. IBM of course is. >> The underlying technology, there are competing versions of how you actually create these qubits. pins of electrons and all sorts of different things. Does it need to be super cooled or not? >> Vanessa: There we go. >> At a fundamental stage we'd be getting ground. But what is, what does ChatGPT look like when it can leverage the quantum realm? >> Well, okay. >> I Mean are we all out of jobs at that point? Should we all just be planning for? >> No. >> Not you. >> I think all of us real estate in Portugal, should we all be looking? >> No, actually, I mean in machine learning there are some hopes about quantum competition because usually you have to deal with lots of data. And we know that in quantum physics you have a concept that is called superposition. So we, there are some hopes not in concrete yet but we have some hopes that these superpositions may allow you to explore this big data in a more efficient way. One has to if this can be confirmed. But one of the hopes creating this lots of qubits in this superpositions that you will have better artificial intelligence machines but, okay, this is quite science fiction what I'm saying now. >> At this point and when you say superposition, that's in contrast to the ones and zeros that we're used to. So when someone says it could be a one or zero or a one and a zero, that's referencing the concept of superposition. And so if this is great for encryption, doesn't that necessarily mean that bad actors can leverage it in a way that is now unhackable? >> I mean our technologies, again it's impossible to hack because it is the laws of physics what are allowing me to detect an intruder. So that's the beauty of it. It's not something that you're going to have to replace in the future because there will be a triple quantum computer, it is not going to affect us in any way but definitely the more capacity, computational capacity that we see out there in quantum computers in particular but in any other technologies in general, I mean, when we were coming to talk to you guys, Antonio and I, he was the one saying we do not know whether somebody has reached some relevant computational power already with the technologies that we have. And they've been able to hack already current cryptography and then they're not telling us. So it's a bit of, the message is a little bit like a paranoid message, but if you think about security that the amount of millions that means for a private institution know when there is a data breach, we see it every day. And also the amount of information that is relevant for the wellbeing of a country. Can you really put a reasonable amount of paranoid to that? Because I believe that it's worth exploring whatever tool is going to prevent you from putting any of those piece of information at risk. >> Super interesting topic guys. I know you're got to run. Thanks for stopping by theCUBE, it was great to have you on. >> Thank you guys. >> All right, so this is the SiliconANGLE theCUBE's coverage of Mobile World Congress, MWC now 23. We're live at the Fira Check out silicon SiliconANGLE.com and theCUBE.net for all the videos. Be right back, right after this short break. (relaxing music)

>>from the cube studios >>in Palo alto in >>boston connecting with thought leaders all around the world. This >>is a cute >>conversation. Hello welcome to the cubes coverage of HPD discovered 2021 virtual. I'm john for your host of the cube we're here with CUBA alumni. One of the original cube guests 2020 11 back in the day kurt president and chief architect of Hewlett Packard labs. He's also a Hewlett Packard enterprise fellow and vice president. Great to see you and you're in Vegas. I'm in Palo Alto. We've got a little virtual hybrid going on here. Thanks for spending time. >>Thanks john it's great to be back with you >>so much going on. I love to see you guys having this event kind of everyone in one spot. Good mojo. Great CHP, you know, back in the saddle again. I want to get your, take, your in the, in the, in the action right now on the lab side, which is great disruptive innovation is the theme. It's always been this year, more than ever coming out of the pandemic, people are looking for the future, looking to see the signs, they want to connect the dots. There's been some radical rethinking going on that you've been driving and in the labs, you hope you look back at last, take us through what's going on, what you're thinking, what's the, what's the big trends? >>Yeah, John So it's been interesting, you know, over the last 18 months, all of us had gone through about a decade's worth of advancement in decentralization, education, healthcare, our own work, what we're doing right now suddenly spread apart. Uh, and it got us thinking, you know, we think about that distributed mesh and as we, as we try and begin to return to normal and certainly think about all that we've lost, we want to move forward, we don't want to regress. And we started imagining, what does that world look like? And we think about the world of 20 2500 and 35 zeta bytes, 100 and 50 billion connected things out there. And it's the shape of the world has changed. That's where the data is going to be. And so we started thinking about what's it like to thrive in that kind of world. We had a global Defense research institute came to us, Nasa's that exact question. What's the edge? What do we need to prepare for for this age of insight? And it was kind of like when you had those exam questions and I was one of those kids who give you the final exam and if it's a really good question, suddenly everything clicked. I understood all the material because there was that really forcing question when they asked us that for me, it it solidified what I've been thinking about all the work we've done at labs over the last the last 10 years. And it's really about what does it take to survive and thrive. And for me it's three things. One is, success is going to go to whoever can reason over more information, who can gain the deepest insights from that information in time that matters and then can turn that insight into action at scale. So reason, insight and action. And it certainly was clear to me everything we've been trying to push for in labs, all those boundaries. We've been pushing all those conventions we've been defying are really trying to do that for, for our customers and our partners to bring in more information for them to understand, to be able to allow them to gain insight across departments across disciplines and then turn that insight into action at scale where scale is no longer one cloud or one company or one country, let alone one data center >>lot there. I love the dot I love that metadata and meta reasoning incites always been part of that. Um and you mentioned decentralization. Again, another big trend. I gotta ask you where is the big opportunity because a lot of people who are attending discover people watching are trying to ask what should they be thinking about. So what is that next big opportunity? How would you frame that and what should attendees look for coming out at HP discover. >>So one thing we're seeing is that this is actually a ubiquitous trend, whether we're talking about transportation or energy or communications, they all are trying to understand and how will they admit more of that data to make those real time decisions? Our expectation in the middle of this decade when we have the 125 petabytes, You know, 30% of that data will need real time action out of the edge where the speed of light is now material. And also we expect that at that point in time three out of four of those 185 petabytes, they'll never make it back to the data center. So understanding how we will allow that computation, that understanding to reach out to where the data is and then bringing in that's important. And then if we look at at those, all of those different areas, whether it's energy and transportation, communications, all that real time data, they all want to understand. And so I I think that as many people come to us virtually now, hopefully in person in the future when we have those conversations that labs, it's almost immediate takes a while for them and then they realize away that's me, this is my industry too, because they see that potential and suddenly where they see data, they see opportunity and they just want to know, okay, what does it take for me to turn that raw material into insight and then turn that insight into >>action, you know, storage compute never goes away, it gets more and more, you need more of it. This whole data and edge conversations really interesting. You know, we're living in that data centric, you know, everyone's gonna be a date a couple, okay. That we know that that's obvious. But I gotta ask you as you start to see machine learning, um cloud scale cloud operations, a new Edge and the new architecture is emerging and clients start to look at things like AI and they want to have more explain ability behind I hear that all the time. Can you explain it to me? Is there any kind of, what is it doing? Good as our biases, a good bad or you know, is really valuable expect experimental experiential. These are words are I'm hearing more and more of >>not so much a speeds >>and feeds game, but these are these are these are these are outcomes. So you got the core data, you've got a new architecture and you're hearing things like explainable ai experiential customer support, a new things happening, explain what this all means, >>You know, and it's it's interesting. We have just completed uh creating an Ai ethical framework for all of Hewlett Packard enterprise and whether we're talking about something that's internal improving a process, uh something that we sell our product or we're talking about a partnership where someone wants to build on top of our services and infrastructure, Build an AI system. We really wanted to encompass all of those. And so it was it was challenging actually took us about 18 months from that very first meeting for us to craft what are some principles for us to use to guide our our team members to give them that understanding. And what was interesting is we examined our principles of robustness of uh making sure they're human centric that they're reliable, that they are privacy preserving, that they are robust. We looked at that and then you look at where people want to apply these Ai today's AI and you start to realize there's a gap, there's actually areas where we have a great challenge, a human challenge and as interesting as possibly efficacious as today's A. I. S. R. We actually can't employ them with the confidence in the ethical position that we need to really pull that technology in. And what was interesting is that then became something that we were driving at labs. It began gave us a viewpoint into where there are gaps where, as you say, explica bility, you know, as fantastic as it is to talk into your mobile phone and have it translated into another one of hundreds of languages. I mean that is right out of Star trek and it's something we can all do. And frankly, it's, you know, we're expecting it now as efficacious as that is as we echo some other problems, it's not enough. We actually need to be explainable. We need to be able to audit these decisions. And so that's really what's informed now are trustworthy ai research and development program at Hewlett Packard Labs. Let's look at where we want to play. I I we look at what keeps us from doing it and then let's close the technology gap and it means some new things. It means new approaches. Sometimes we're going back back back to some of the very early ai um that things that we sort of left behind when suddenly the computational capability allowed us to enter into a machine learning and deep neural nets. Great applications, but it's not universally applicable. So that's where we are now. We're beginning to construct that second generation of AI systems where that explica bility where that trustworthiness and were more important that you said, understanding that data flow and the responsibility we have to those who created that data, especially when it's representing human information, that long term responsibility. What are the structures we need to support that ethically? >>That's great insight, Kirk, that's awesome stuff. And it reminds me of the old is new again, right? The cycles of innovation, you mentioned a I in the eighties, reminds me of dusting off and I was smiling because the notion of reasoning and natural language that's been around for a while, these other for a lot of Ai frame which have been around for a while But applied differently becomes interesting. The notion of Meta reasoning, I remember talking about that in 1998 around ontology and syntax and data analysis. I mean, again, well formed, you know, older ways to look at data. And so I gotta ask you, you know, you mentioned reasoning over information, getting the insights and having actions at scale. That doesn't sound like an R and D or labs issue. Right? I mean that that should be like in the market today. So I know you, there's stuff out there, what's different around the Hewlett Packard labs challenge because you guys, you guys are working on stuff that's kind of next gen, so why, what's next gen about reasoning moreover, information and getting insights? Because you know, there's a zillion startups out there that claim to be insights as a service, um, taking action outcomes >>and I think there were going to say a couple things. One is the technologies and the capabilities that God is this far. Uh, they're actually in an interesting position if we think of that twilight of moore's law is getting a little darker every day. Um, there's been such a tail wind behind us tremendous and we would have been foolish not to take advantage of it while it lasted, but as it now flattens out, we have to be realistic and say, you know what that ability to expect anticipate and then planned for a doubling and performance in the next 18 to 24 months because there's twice as many transistors in that square of silicon. We can't count on that anymore. We have to look now broader and it's not just one of these technology inflection points. There's so many we already mentioned ai it's voraciously vowing all this data at the same time. Now that data is all at the edge is no longer in the data center. I mean we may find ourselves laughing chuckling at the term itself data center. Remember when we sent it all the data? Because that's where the computers were. Well, that's 2020 thinking right, that's not even 2025. Thinking also security, that cyber threat of Nation State and criminal enterprises, all these things coming together and it's that confluence of discontinuities, that's what makes a loud problem. And the second piece is we don't just need to do it the way that we've been doing it because that's not necessarily sustainable. And if something is not sustainable is inherently inequitable because we can't afford to let everyone enjoy those benefits. So I think that's all those things, the technology confluence of technology, uh, disruptions and this desire to move to really sustainable, really inherently inequitable systems. That's what makes it a labs problem. >>I really think that's right on the money. And one of things I want to get your thoughts on, cause I know you have a unique historic view of the trajectory arc. Cloud computing that everyone's attention lift and shift cloud scale. Great cloud native. Now with hybrid and multi cloud clearly happening, all the cloud players were saying, oh, it's never gonna happen. All the data set is going to go away. Not really. The, the data center is just an edge big age. So you brought up the data center concept and you mentioned decentralization there, it's a distributed computing architecture, There is no line anymore between what's cloud and what's not the cloud is just the cloud and the data center is now a big fat edge and edges are smaller and bigger. Their nodes distribute computing now is the context. So this is not a new thing for Hewlett Packard enterprise. I mean you guys been doing distributed computing paradigms, supplying software and hardware and solutions Since I can remember since it was founded, what's new now, what do you say that folks are saying, what is HP doing for this new architecture? Because now an operating system is the word, the word that they want. They want to have an operating model, deV ops to have sex shops, all this is happening. What's the what's the state of the art from H. P. E. And how does the lab play into that vision? >>And it's so wonderful that you mentioned in our heritage because if you think about it was the first thing that Bill and they did, they made instruments of unparalleled value and quality for engineers and scientists. And the second thing they did was computerized that instrument control. And then they network them together and then they connect to the network measurement sensing systems to business computing. Right. And so that's really, that's exactly what we're talking about here. You know, and yesterday it was H. B. I. B. Cables. But today it is everything from an Aruba wireless gateway to a green Lake cloud that comes to you to now are cray exa scale supercomputing. And we wanted to look at that entire gamut and understand exactly what you said. How is today's modern developer who has been distinct in agile development in seven uh and devops and def sec ops. How can we make them as comfortable and confident deploying to any one of those systems or all of them in conjunction as confident as they've been deploying to a cloud. And I think that's really part of what we need to understand. And as you move out towards the edge things become interesting. A tiny amount of resources, the number of threats, physical and uh um cyber increased dramatically. It is no longer the healthy happy environment of that raised floor data center, It is actually out in the world but we have to because that's where the data is and so that's another piece of it that we're trying to bring with the labs are distributed systems lab trying to understand how do we make cloud native access every single bite everywhere from the tiniest little Edge embedded system, all the way up through that exa scale supercomputer, how do we admit all of that data to this entire generation and then the following subsequent generation, who will no longer understand what we were so worried about with things being in one place or another, they want to digest all the world's data regardless of where it is. >>You know, I was just having a conversation, you brought this up. Uh that's interesting around the history and the heritage, embedded systems is changing the whole hardware equations, changes the software driven model. Now, supply chain used to be constrained to software. Now you have a software supply chain, hardware, now you have software supply chain. So everything is happening in these kind of new use cases. And Edge is a great example where you want to have compute at the edge not having pulled back to some central location. So, again, advantage hp right, you've got more, you've got some solutions there. So all these like memory driven computing, something that you've worked on and been driving the machine product that we talked about when you guys launched a few years ago, um, looks like now a good R and D project, because all the discussions, I'm I'm hearing whether it's stuff in space or inside hybrid edges is I gotta have software running on an embedded system, I need security, I gotta have, you know, memory driven architecture is I gotta have data driven value in real time. This is new as a kind of a new shift, but you still need to run it. What's the update on the machine and the memory driven computing? And how does that connect the dots for this intelligent Edge? That's now super important in the hybrid equation. >>Yeah, it's fantastic you brought that up. You know, it's uh it's gratifying when you've been drawing pictures on your white board for 10 or 15 years and suddenly you see them printed uh and on the web and he's like, OK Yeah, you guys were there were there because we always knew it had to be bigger than us. And for a while you wonder, well is this the right direction? And then you get that gratification that you see it repeated. And I think one of the other elements that you said that was so important was talking about that supply chain uh and especially as we get towards these edge devices uh and the increasing cyber threat, you know, so much more about understanding the provenance of that supply chain and how we get beyond trust uh to prove. And in our case that proof is rooted in the silicon. Start with the silicon establish a silicon root of trust, something that can't be forged that that physically uncomfortable function in the silicon. And then build up that chain not of trust but a proof of measurable confidence. And then let's link that through the hardware through the data. And I think that's another element, understanding how that data is flowing in and we establish that that that provenance that's provable provenance and that also enables us to come back to that equitable question. How do we deal with all this data? Well, we want to make sure that everyone wants to buy in and that's why you need to be able to reward them. So being able to trace data into an AI model, trace it back out to its effect on society. All these are things that we're trying to understand the labs so that we can really establish this data economy and admit the day that we need to the problems that we have that really just are crying out for that solution bringing in that data, you just know where is the data, Where is the answer? Now I get to work with, I've worked for several years with the German center for your Degenerative Disease Research and I was teasing their director dr nakata. I said, you know, in a couple of years when you're getting that Nobel prize for medicine because you cracked Alzheimer's I want you to tell me how long was the answer hiding in plain sight because it was segregated across disciplines across geography and it was there. But we just didn't have that ability to view across the breath of the information and in a time that matters. And I think so much about what we're trying to do with the lab is that that's that reasoning moreover, more information, gaining insights in the time that matters and then it's all about action and that is driving that insight into the world regardless of whether it has to land in an exa scale supercomputer or tiny little edge device, we want today's application development teams to feel that degree of freedom to range over all of those that infrastructure and all of that data. >>You know, you bring up a great call out there. I want to just highlight that cause I thought that was awesome. The future breakthroughs are hiding in plain sight. It's the access to the people and the talent to solve the problems and the data that's stuck in the silos. You bring those together, you make that seamless and frictionless, then magic happens. That's that's really what we're talking about in this new world, isn't it? >>Absolutely, yeah. And it's one of those things that sometimes my kids as you know, why do you come in every day? And for me it is exactly that I think so many of the challenges we have are actually solvable if the right people knew the right information at the right time and that we all have that not again, not trust, but that proof that confidence, that measurable conference back to the instruments that that HP was always famous for. It was that precision and they all had that calibration tag. So you could measure your confidence in an HP instrument and the same. We want people to measure their confidence when data is flowing through Hewlett Packard Enterprise infrastructure. >>It's interesting to bring up the legacy because instrumentation network together, connecting to business systems. Hey, that sounds like the cloud observe ability, modern applications, instant action and actionable insights. I mean that's really the the same almost exact formula. >>Yeah, For me that's that, that the constant through line from the garage to right now is that ability to handle and connect people to the information that they need. >>Great, great to chat. You're always an inspiration and we could go for another hour talking about extra scale, green leg, all the other cool things going on at H P E. I got to ask you the final question, what are you most excited about for h B and his future and how and how can folks learn more to discover and what should they focus on? >>Uh so I think for me um what I love is that I imagine that world where the data you know today is out there at the edge and you know we have our Aruba team, we have our green Lake team, we have are consistent, you know, our core enterprise infrastructure business and now we also have all the way up through X scale compute when I think of that thriving business, that ability to bring in massive data analytics, machine learning and Ai and then stimulation and modeling. That's really what whether you're a scientist and engineer or an artist, you want to have that intersectionality. And I think we actually have this incredible, diverse set of resources to bring to bear to those problems that will span from edge to cloud, back to core and then to exit scale. So that's what really, that's why I find so exciting is all of the great uh innovators that we get to work with and the markets we get to participate in. And then for me it's also the fact it's all happening at Hewlett Packard Enterprise, which means we have a purpose. You know, if you ask, you know, when they did ask Dave Packer, Dave, why hp? And he said in 1960, we come together as a company because we can do something we could not do by ourselves and we make a contribution to society and I dare anyone to spend more than a couple of minutes with Antonio Neary and he won't remind you. And this is whether it is here to discover or in the halls at labs remind me our purpose, that Hewlett Packard Enterprise is to advance the way that people live and work. And for me that's that direct connection. So it's, it's the technology and then the purpose and that's really what I find so exciting about HPV. >>That's a great call out, Antonio deserves props. I love talking with him, he's the true Bill and Dave Bill. Hewlett Dave package spirit And I'll say that I've talked with him and one of the things that resident to me and resonates well is the citizenship and be interesting to see if Bill and Dave were alive today, that now it's a global citizenship. This is a huge part of the culture and I know it's still alive there at H P E. So, great call out there and props to Antonio and yourself and the team. Congratulations. Thanks for spending the time, appreciate it. >>Thank you john it's great to be with you again. >>Okay. Global labs. Global opportunities, radical. Rethinking this is what's happening within HP. Hewlett Packard Labs, Great, great contribution there from Kirk, have them on the cube and always fun to talk so much, so much to digest there. It's awesome. I'm john Kerry with the cube. Thanks for watching. >>Mm >>mhm Yeah.

(upbeat music) >> Welcome to theCUBE's coverage of PagerDuty Summit. I'm your host for "theCUBE" Natalie Erlich. We're joined with a special guest, Sean Mack, the CIO and CISO of Wiley. Thank you very much for joining the program. >> Great to be here, Natalie. Thanks for having me. >> Terrific, well, tell us about Wiley. What do you do? >> Sure, Wiley is really wonderful company. Wiley drives the world forward with research and education. Through publishing and services, we help researchers, professionals, students, universities and corporations to achieve their goals. Wiley's primarily known as a publishing company but really now more than ever we're a tech enabled research and education company and we have three major areas of impact. Research, education, and professional learning. >> Terrific, well, you know obviously the pandemic the big topic of the last year and hopefully, new topics as we move forward, but how has education community evolved during this pandemic and what's the next step for hybrid learning? >> Yeah, it's been amazing to be part of education and research during this pandemic. during a time when these things have never really been more important. Wiley is a company that's transforming at every level and to many extensive pandemic accelerated those changes. And this is nowhere more evident than in the education space. For a long time we'd been building these online and computer-based education platforms and really trying to get folks to move there. And that's been a long, long process and it's been wonderful 'cause we've seen the pandemic has really accelerated that. And we've seen huge increases in usage on our online education platforms, which we've been pushing towards for years. So in many ways it's really enabled us to move forward in a way that nothing else could have. >> Yeah, I mean that's really incredible. You mentioned incredible silver lining with the pandemic, accelerating digital transformation especially in education. What do you see as the next phase now that this has really developed over the last year? >> Yeah, so as I mentioned, we're transforming at every level and at a business level that we just talked a little bit about that, education is moving more and more to online and hybrid models. Research, we're moving more and more to open access models where everybody has had access to research, again with the pandemic this has been critical to make sure that we're getting out good medical research and that it's available as widely as possible. But we're also transforming internally. I've been with Wiley about a year and a half now and when I started, so this is actually prior to COVID our CEO Brian Napack said that we're not in a single market that's not going through major disruption and he's right. And it's so exciting to be part of this company. And on the internally, we have to make sure we're going through a transformation so that we can deliver the products and services that the world's demanding at the speed at which they're demanding them, right? And so we're also going through transformations from Agile to Cloud to devOps, and it makes it a really exciting place to be as a technologist. And also someone who's passionate about education research. >> Yeah, well, terrific. Why did you choose PagerDuty? >> I think there are a few key elements that PagerDuty really enables for us. So as I mentioned, we're going through this devOps transformation and some of the core competencies, the core principles of devOps are ones that are enabled by PagerDuty. I think a couple of key ones that I love about it are the ability to empower the users rather than having a centralized service desk that is looking up things and paging out and needs to manage a registry of all the technology people. We can put that power that control in the hands of what we at wildly called a functional delivery teams. These teams that are fully responsible for their staff, fully responsible for their research and education solutions that they're delivering. And we were using PagerDuty can put that responsibility and empower those teams to take full ownership of their on call schedules, their team management without having to go through several hops to get there. And I think this also drives another key element which is that accountability. Look, we're asking these functional delivery teams to take responsibility for their applications and services. We don't work in an environment where you say, Oh, that's our operations team's responsibility, we're working in a devOps model. And we can't ask, we can't rightfully ask teams to take responsibility if we don't provide them the tools to be in control of their own fate. And I really think that PagerDuty is a key element of that tool chain, which enables them to manage their full stack and thereby drives that accountability and ownership. >> Yeah, well, I'd love it if you could tell us some of the challenges you were trying to solve by implementing PagerDuty. >> There were several, I think it speaks to some of the underlying principles of devOps and Agile that we were trying to enable. More than anything it's really about driving better meantime to resolution when incidents do arrive. through faster escalation directly to the right person, right? We breaking out of this tiered service model where it has to go through a tier one, a tier two, tier three before the technical issue gets to the right person right. Now with PagerDuty the issue goes directly to the person who can solve it, and they're there, they're able to solve it. And we have made huge strides in reducing our meantime to resolution. I have never seen improvements like I've seen in the past year and a half in Wiley using PagerDuty as a part of our overall tool chain. >> Yeah, I mean if you have a concrete example that something really stood out would love to hear that. >> So I'm not going to go bring up the charts and data to show you but I'll tell ya' the concrete data is there. We track how long it takes us obviously to resolve problems when they occur. And I was blown away by what this team has achieved. And I don't want to take away credit from all the work they've done either right. Tools alone doesn't solve any problem. We have a amazing technology team and amazing team willing to take that responsibility. But if you look at the numbers over the past year and a half, in terms of the reduction in time to resolve across every, every team, it's truly impressive. >> And what are you looking forward to at the summit? >> Well, I'm always excited to hear about what's going on at PagerDuty. I think there are a couple key items or key sessions that I'm excited to see. I'm really looking forward to hearing more about the future of work, the views from the C-suite. I think PagerDuty always has a really unique and fresh perspective and so I think that's going to be very pertinent and timely as we look to what's coming next in a hybrid world. I'm also excited about the what's next in DevOps presentation, some great folks speaking there. And I think devOps is maturing and we can, (laughs) for a longest time we were asking, what is devOps, right? Can we define, can we define it in an inconsistent way? And I think we're at a point now where we can, and we know the components. So it's a really good time to ask what's next in devOps. And finally I'm just excited to hear what's next for PagerDuty. It's been a great tool for us and I'm excited to see where the company is going next. >> Yeah, terrific. Well, let's shift gears a bit, staying on point with digital transformation. How is that in line with some of the broader organizational goals that that Wiley has, such as bridging the higher education gap? >> Yeah, I think that as I mentioned all our businesses are changing dramatically and we're not going to be able to meet the rapidly changing technology demands unless we have technologies and teams that can rapidly change with those demands and rapidly expand with those demands. So whether that's auto scaling, whether that's more resilient systems, we need to be there. And I'll also mention the key element that security plays here because the other change we're seeing is a huge increase in the threat landscape and the depth of some of the attacks we're seeing. And so this focus on security is another important part of the transformation and the transformation from just security to DevSecOps is something that's key for Wiley. It's critical because security for Wiley is security for our customers. And one of the things that we offer is the promise of reliable and secure services >> And what are some of the innovative ways that Wiley is now delivering content solutions? >> So we're always trying to push the envelope of education in many different ways. I think that there's huge possibilities with AI machine learning, adaptive learning to really push that envelope, to really, I mean, one of the things that I love about being at Wiley is that I get to be involved with education and research. Like my job gets to be helping people learn better, helping people learn quicker, right. If we can, through technology, make learning easier, make it quicker to learn and also look at reducing the cost and availability of that education. We can make an impact around the world. And that's the exciting thing to be part of. >> Yeah, indeed. Well talk to us about some of the collaborations that you have with author, societies, libraries, and other members of the research community. >> So I'm probably >> At Wiley. >> Not the best one to talk to. (laughs) I focus a lot on enabling our researchers and educators. I focus a lot on enabling the teams that are building the platforms but you'd have to talk to the lines of business to get into a bit more depth about the many Nobel laureates that we're working with. >> Terrific, yeah. So in terms of digital transformation, obviously that's a priority for you, security, tell us more about specifically the main points that you're going to be focusing on in this next year in 2021. >> Yeah, there's a few key key elements that we're focusing on as we go into, it's actually coincidentally the start of our fiscal year. We have a bit of an interesting fiscal year but that kicks off or just kicked off last month. So we've spent the last four months doing a lot of planning for this year. For me, I think some of the keys are going to be driving agility through simplicity, right? And one of the places that comes into play is through our tool chain. Making sure we don't have every tool but we've got the right tools to connect our users. And that tool chain is very much interconnected so that we can hit on another key concept for me which is the enablement of our business, right. We enable our developers, we enable content editors. We enabled all of Wiley to do the best job they can through technology. We want technology to be seamless for our users. So, and these three concepts, seamless, enablement and simplicity, agility through simplicity, really work hand in hand to enable our users, our community, to develop, to build at the speed that business demands >> And obviously, security really, key feature of your role. We don't often think about security going hand in hand with education, but for some of our viewers that are not directly involved in education why is that so critical? >> Yeah, well, I think anyone who's involved with technology today can grasp the criticality of security. Not many days go by that we don't hear of new threats, new ransomware attacks and Wiley is now more than ever a technology enabled and driven business. When we talk about education we're talking about technology. When we talk about research, we talk about technology and the underpinning systems and the threats that are out there, impact education and research technology just as they do any other research and education or any other line of business. We have amazing security team Wiley, I am really blown away by the work this team does every day. And I'm excited about where it's going to. it's so critical for us because we need to provide, we talk about enabling education for more people in a more effective way around the world, part of that is making sure that all of our users are secure and safe and confident. So we are investing heavily in security and going beyond just spending more money but really taking a innovative DevSecOps approach, focusing on application security, focusing on making security not just a team, but part of what everybody in Wiley does. Because technology can't just be a set of tools and it can't be one team that sits in a dark corner of the environment and tells people what they can't do. Security has to be poor to everything we do. And so when we're talking about people building new products and services, we have to make sure that they're part of the security solution. When we talk about our finance users they need to be part of our security solution. If we're not, only by making sure that security is integral to everything we do are we truly going to be able to make sure we have a secure set of products and services for our users. >> Terrific, well, thank you so much for your insights and thoughts on PagerDuty summit as well as digital transformation at Wiley. Really appreciate it. Sean Mack, the CIO and CISO at Wiley. Thank you for joining the program. >> Great, thank you. Thank you so much for having me here. >> And that's all for this session of PagerDuty summit coverage by "theCUBE." I'm your host Natalie Erlich. Thanks for watching. (upbeat music)

from around the globe it's thecube with digital coverage of exascale day made possible by hewlett packard enterprise welcome everyone to the cube celebration of exascale day ben bennett is here he's an hpc strategist and evangelist at hewlett-packard enterprise ben welcome good to see you good to see you too son hey well let's evangelize exascale a little bit you know what's exciting you uh in regards to the coming of exoskilled computing um well there's a couple of things really uh for me historically i've worked in super computing for many years and i have seen the coming of several milestones from you know actually i'm old enough to remember gigaflops uh coming through and teraflops and petaflops exascale is has been harder than many of us anticipated many years ago the sheer amount of technology that has been required to deliver machines of this performance has been has been us utterly staggering but the exascale era brings with it real solutions it gives us opportunities to do things that we've not been able to do before if you look at some of the the most powerful computers around today they've they've really helped with um the pandemic kovid but we're still you know orders of magnitude away from being able to design drugs in situ test them in memory and release them to the public you know we still have lots and lots of lab work to do and exascale machines are going to help with that we are going to be able to to do more um which ultimately will will aid humanity and they used to be called the grand challenges and i still think of them as that i still think of these challenges for scientists that exascale class machines will be able to help but also i'm a realist is that in 10 20 30 years time you know i should be able to look back at this hopefully touch wood look back at it and look at much faster machines and say do you remember the days when we thought exascale was faster yeah well you mentioned the pandemic and you know the present united states was tweeting this morning that he was upset that you know the the fda in the u.s is not allowing the the vaccine to proceed as fast as you'd like it in fact it the fda is loosening some of its uh restrictions and i wonder if you know high performance computing in part is helping with the simulations and maybe predicting because a lot of this is about probabilities um and concerns is is is that work that is going on today or are you saying that that exascale actually you know would be what we need to accelerate that what's the role of hpc that you see today in regards to sort of solving for that vaccine and any other sort of pandemic related drugs so so first a disclaimer i am not a geneticist i am not a biochemist um my son is he tries to explain it to me and it tends to go in one ear and out the other um um i just merely build the machines he uses so we're sort of even on that front um if you read if you had read the press there was a lot of people offering up systems and computational resources for scientists a lot of the work that has been done understanding the mechanisms of covid19 um have been you know uncovered by the use of very very powerful computers would exascale have helped well clearly the faster the computers the more simulations we can do i think if you look back historically no vaccine has come to fruition as fast ever under modern rules okay admittedly the first vaccine was you know edward jenner sat quietly um you know smearing a few people and hoping it worked um i think we're slightly beyond that the fda has rules and regulations for a reason and we you don't have to go back far in our history to understand the nature of uh drugs that work for 99 of the population you know and i think exascale widely available exoscale and much faster computers are going to assist with that imagine having a genetic map of very large numbers of people on the earth and being able to test your drug against that breadth of person and you know that 99 of the time it works fine under fda rules you could never sell it you could never do that but if you're confident in your testing if you can demonstrate that you can keep the one percent away for whom that drug doesn't work bingo you now have a drug for the majority of the people and so many drugs that have so many benefits are not released and drugs are expensive because they fail at the last few moments you know the more testing you can do the more testing in memory the better it's going to be for everybody uh personally are we at a point where we still need human trials yes do we still need due diligence yes um we're not there yet exascale is you know it's coming it's not there yet yeah well to your point the faster the computer the more simulations and the higher the the chance that we're actually going to going to going to get it right and maybe compress that time to market but talk about some of the problems that you're working on uh and and the challenges for you know for example with the uk government and maybe maybe others that you can you can share with us help us understand kind of what you're hoping to accomplish so um within the united kingdom there was a report published um for the um for the uk research institute i think it's the uk research institute it might be epsrc however it's the body of people responsible for funding um science and there was a case a science case done for exascale i'm not a scientist um a lot of the work that was in this documentation said that a number of things that can be done today aren't good enough that we need to look further out we need to look at machines that will do much more there's been a program funded called asimov and this is a sort of a commercial problem that the uk government is working with rolls royce and they're trying to research how you build a full engine model and by full engine model i mean one that takes into account both the flow of gases through it and how those flow of gases and temperatures change the physical dynamics of the engine and of course as you change the physical dynamics of the engine you change the flow so you need a closely coupled model as air travel becomes more and more under the microscope we need to make sure that the air travel we do is as efficient as possible and currently there aren't supercomputers that have the performance one of the things i'm going to be doing as part of this sequence of conversations is i'm going to be having an in detailed uh sorry an in-depth but it will be very detailed an in-depth conversation with professor mark parsons from the edinburgh parallel computing center he's the director there and the dean of research at edinburgh university and i'm going to be talking to him about the azimoth program and and mark's experience as the person responsible for looking at exascale within the uk to try and determine what are the sort of science problems that we can solve as we move into the exoscale era and what that means for humanity what are the benefits for humans yeah and that's what i wanted to ask you about the the rolls-royce example that you gave it wasn't i if i understood it wasn't so much safety as it was you said efficiency and so that's that's what fuel consumption um it's it's partly fuel consumption it is of course safety there is a um there is a very specific test called an extreme event or the fan blade off what happens is they build an engine and they put it in a cowling and then they run the engine at full speed and then they literally explode uh they fire off a little explosive and they fire a fan belt uh a fan blade off to make sure that it doesn't go through the cowling and the reason they do that is there has been in the past uh a uh a failure of a fan blade and it came through the cowling and came into the aircraft depressurized the aircraft i think somebody was killed as a result of that and the aircraft went down i don't think it was a total loss one death being one too many but as a result you now have to build a jet engine instrument it balance the blades put an explosive in it and then blow the fan blade off now you only really want to do that once it's like car crash testing you want to build a model of the car you want to demonstrate with the dummy that it is safe you don't want to have to build lots of cars and keep going back to the drawing board so you do it in computers memory right we're okay with cars we have computational power to resolve to the level to determine whether or not the accident would hurt a human being still a long way to go to make them more efficient uh new materials how you can get away with lighter structures but we haven't got there with aircraft yet i mean we can build a simulation and we can do that and we can be pretty sure we're right um we still need to build an engine which costs in excess of 10 million dollars and blow the fan blade off it so okay so you're talking about some pretty complex simulations obviously what are some of the the barriers and and the breakthroughs that are kind of required you know to to do some of these things that you're talking about that exascale is going to enable i mean presumably there are obviously technical barriers but maybe you can shed some light on that well some of them are very prosaic so for example power exoscale machines consume a lot of power um so you have to be able to design systems that consume less power and that goes into making sure they're cooled efficiently if you use water can you reuse the water i mean the if you take a laptop and sit it on your lap and you type away for four hours you'll notice it gets quite warm um an exascale computer is going to generate a lot more heat several megawatts actually um and it sounds prosaic but it's actually very important to people you've got to make sure that the systems can be cooled and that we can power them yeah so there's that another issue is the software the software models how do you take a software model and distribute the data over many tens of thousands of nodes how do you do that efficiently if you look at you know gigaflop machines they had hundreds of nodes and each node had effectively a processor a core a thread of application we're looking at many many tens of thousands of nodes cores parallel threads running how do you make that efficient so is the software ready i think the majority of people will tell you that it's the software that's the problem not the hardware of course my friends in hardware would tell you ah software is easy it's the hardware that's the problem i think for the universities and the users the challenge is going to be the software i think um it's going to have to evolve you you're just you want to look at your machine and you just want to be able to dump work onto it easily we're not there yet not by a long stretch of the imagination yeah consequently you know we one of the things that we're doing is that we have a lot of centers of excellence is we will provide well i hate say the word provide we we sell super computers and once the machine has gone in we work very closely with the establishments create centers of excellence to get the best out of the machines to improve the software um and if a machine's expensive you want to get the most out of it that you can you don't just want to run a synthetic benchmark and say look i'm the fastest supercomputer on the planet you know your users who want access to it are the people that really decide how useful it is and the work they get out of it yeah the economics is definitely a factor in fact the fastest supercomputer in the planet but you can't if you can't afford to use it what good is it uh you mentioned power uh and then the flip side of that coin is of course cooling you can reduce the power consumption but but how challenging is it to cool these systems um it's an engineering problem yeah we we have you know uh data centers in iceland where it gets um you know it doesn't get too warm we have a big air cooled data center in in the united kingdom where it never gets above 30 degrees centigrade so if you put in water at 40 degrees centigrade and it comes out at 50 degrees centigrade you can cool it by just pumping it round the air you know just putting it outside the building because the building will you know never gets above 30 so it'll easily drop it back to 40 to enable you to put it back into the machine um right other ways to do it um you know is to take the heat and use it commercially there's a there's a lovely story of they take the hot water out of the supercomputer in the nordics um and then they pump it into a brewery to keep the mash tuns warm you know that's that's the sort of engineering i can get behind yeah indeed that's a great application talk a little bit more about your conversation with professor parsons maybe we could double click into that what are some of the things that you're going to you're going to probe there what are you hoping to learn so i think some of the things that that are going to be interesting to uncover is just the breadth of science that can be uh that could take advantage of exascale you know there are there are many things going on that uh that people hear about you know we people are interested in um you know the nobel prize they might have no idea what it means but the nobel prize for physics was awarded um to do with research into black holes you know fascinating and truly insightful physics um could it benefit from exascale i have no idea uh i i really don't um you know one of the most profound pieces of knowledge in in the last few hundred years has been the theory of relativity you know an austrian patent clerk wrote e equals m c squared on the back of an envelope and and voila i i don't believe any form of exascale computing would have helped him get there any faster right that's maybe flippant but i think the point is is that there are areas in terms of weather prediction climate prediction drug discovery um material knowledge engineering uh problems that are going to be unlocked with the use of exascale class systems we are going to be able to provide more tools more insight [Music] and that's the purpose of computing you know it's not that it's not the data that that comes out and it's the insight we get from it yeah i often say data is plentiful insights are not um ben you're a bit of an industry historian so i've got to ask you you mentioned you mentioned mentioned gigaflop gigaflops before which i think goes back to the early 1970s uh but the history actually the 80s is it the 80s okay well the history of computing goes back even before that you know yes i thought i thought seymour cray was you know kind of father of super computing but perhaps you have another point of view as to the origination of high performance computing [Music] oh yes this is um this is this is one for all my colleagues globally um you know arguably he says getting ready to be attacked from all sides arguably you know um computing uh the parallel work and the research done during the war by alan turing is the father of high performance computing i think one of the problems we have is that so much of that work was classified so much of that work was kept away from commercial people that commercial computing evolved without that knowledge i uh i have done in in in a previous life i have done some work for the british science museum and i have had the great pleasure in walking through the the british science museum archives um to look at how computing has evolved from things like the the pascaline from blaise pascal you know napier's bones the babbage's machines uh to to look all the way through the analog machines you know what conrad zeus was doing on a desktop um i think i think what's important is it doesn't matter where you are is that it is the problem that drives the technology and it's having the problems that requires the you know the human race to look at solutions and be these kicks started by you know the terrible problem that the us has with its nuclear stockpile stewardship now you've invented them how do you keep them safe originally done through the ascii program that's driven a lot of computational advances ultimately it's our quest for knowledge that drives these machines and i think as long as we are interested as long as we want to find things out there will always be advances in computing to meet that need yeah and you know it was a great conversation uh you're a brilliant guest i i love this this this talk and uh and of course as the saying goes success has many fathers so there's probably a few polish mathematicians that would stake a claim in the uh the original enigma project as well i think i think they drove the algorithm i think the problem is is that the work of tommy flowers is the person who took the algorithms and the work that um that was being done and actually had to build the poor machine he's the guy that actually had to sit there and go how do i turn this into a machine that does that and and so you know people always remember touring very few people remember tommy flowers who actually had to turn the great work um into a working machine yeah super computer team sport well ben it's great to have you on thanks so much for your perspectives best of luck with your conversation with professor parsons we'll be looking forward to that and uh and thanks so much for coming on thecube a complete pleasure thank you and thank you everybody for watching this is dave vellante we're celebrating exascale day you're watching the cube [Music]

>> Announcer: Live from Las Vegas, it's theCUBE. Covering AWS Executive Summit. Brought to you by Accenture. >> Hello everyone and welcome back to theCUBE's live coverage of the Accenture Executive Summit here at the Venetian in Las Vegas. Part of AW re:invent, of course. I'm your host, Rebecca Knight. We have two guests for this segment. We have Leandro Nunes. He is the Vice President of Product Development at Mastercard. Thank you so much for coming on the show. >> Thanks for having me. >> And Christine Leong, she is the Managing Director, Accenture Blockchain and Biometrics. Thank you so much. >> Thank you. >> So sustainability is a hot topic in the industry, in all industry today and especially here at AWS re:Invent. I want to talk to you about circular supply chain which was an idea that germinated in your brain a couple of years ago, but it really just sort of launched a year ago. Tell us more about why you started CSC. >> Sure. We started this actually because, a couple of things. We drink coffee every single day, and as we go into every coffee shop and we think about, well, you see packets saying this is my single origin coffee. I pay extra for this and it's sustainably grown and yet so see news saying that the rain forest is being burned down and animals are being killed. And so about two years ago, I looked at this and I thought, "Wow, how do I know "this is really sustainable, what I'm drinking?" The extra five bucks that I'm paying at my coffee shop, is it really single origin? Is it really going to the right people? Is it really killing the orangutans and the rainforest and then I see a statistic that says, well, for every cup of coffee that we drink, a square inch of rainforest gets burned down. And, I mean, I drink at least five cups of coffee a day. So that's not good, right? So then I thought, and working, actually, with Mastercard at the time, I'm doing and still do actually do a lot of work with Mastercard around identity and biometrics and I thought, "Well, how can we combine "some of these capabilities we have "with Blockchain identity to say, "to put our money where our mouths is?" To change the incentives at the base of the pyramid where farmers, producers, smallholders. If I can say to them that I really want to care that you don't burn the forest down, that you produce in a good way. And they're just trying to survive. They're not bad people, if they are just hand to mouth. That if we can say, right, we'll pay you more as consumers and we know it's definitely going to that right person, then maybe we can help to change some of, you know, and not have the rainforests and not have my guilty cup of coffee, right? >> So even if we don't drink quite as much coffee as you, Christine, we are as a group, consumers are more socially conscious than they ever have been. What are some of the statistics here? That people just care more about this stuff, in general, and they're willing to pay premium for it. >> So, for example, the green trade is estimated, this came out from Unilever, at $2 trillion a year, by next year actually. I mean, that's a staggering statistic and as you see more and more on social media, on literally every platform that you can see. Sustainability is a huge topic with the recent UN climate discussions. I mean, next week in Madrid, it's a big topic that we should all, as responsible responsible consumers, care about. >> So Leandro, what do you see as the benefits of CSC of small actors? >> Well, it's a great point, because when you seriously think about it you usually say a lot about consumers and the big brands. And now we are protecting the big brands, but just think about the sourcing side of the supply chain, right? The small communities, the ones that are growing the coffee, the ones that are the farmers over there or the fishermen. Now, these ones have been there for a while, they are just being kind of squeezed by the whole supply chain, squeezed by the whole business. Right? You think like let's remove a little bit of their margin, let's put it into something else. Now, when you have the circle of supply chain, because consumers in this new generation is so interested in knowing where the product comes from, if they are doing the right thing. Now there's a chance that you can pay them back. It's all about coming up with an incentive model, that's what we see with Mastercard, right? When you create a network like that, which the Blockchain solution is, it's a big network. So how we can gain traction, how we can gain adoption? One thing is, you need to establish incentives through all of the parties that you have in the network. So if you're just taking care of the brand and they're going to say, "Brands, mandate to your suppliers "that needs to do that." This is not going to work. What will work is, what is the incentive the farmers are going to have? What is the sourcing? So, wait a minute. So, don't you think the farmers want to do the right thing? Of course they do, but do they have incentives for that? If it's just a letter, or if it's just someone mandating, they're not going to do it. But if you come with the idea of, "Hey, I pay you back your coffee "or whatever your product you're doing, "you can have a premium. "It's going to be sustainable to your family as well. "Your business can be more profitable." So they will see, "Okay, I want to be part of it." >> So, it's creating incentives for people, for the producers themselves to grow things more sustainably. >> It's all about that, it's not only them. And then you go to the suppliers, you go to the logistics, transportation companies. You give them the visibility. They always complain about, "How can I have the visibility of my supply chain?" "Why?" "Can you create the visibility?" You give the transparency that you create the trust. And if you'll ask people in a supply chain business what the big problem is in supply chain, it's trust. They don't trust each other, but they have to trade things and they don't trust each other. You do business with people you don't trust every single day. It's not a good thing. So, if you bring this visibility, you facilitate this and they see there's an incentive to be also part of it. >> So Christine, what are the kinds of technologies that are powering the CSC and how does it create that trust or cultivate that trust? >> And Leandro is spot on in terms of trust. It's about trusting the people, but trusting the data and trusting the entities that put in some of the data. There are components of Blockchain, of course, that serve the traceability aspects of any of the product. Blockchain also helps with the decentralized identity capability that we've put in. We've made also biometrics for the individual, but this is optional, depending on how, in terms of using it very responsibly. Payments of course, digital payments and having the ability to actually direct payments through the Mastercard rails. And then, of course, with the power of AWS and then hosting it on the cloud and be able to have that anywhere. And the different aspects of including IoT, so we know that let's say for fisheries, this product actually really came from this place, you know, there's sensors, we know that it's kept at the right temperature, therefore insurance payoffs and things like that will be right and tracked all the way through and knowing that the product is really fresh and really kept intact throughout the journey. So a whole bunch of different technology. >> Totally agreed. Projects with Blockchain only tend not to succeed and the reason is because you need to nurture the ecosystem. So how you bring the IoT-- >> Yes. >> To the table, how you bring payments, how you bring AI. You get all these solutions together and then you create what this visibility, that's the trust we need. Companies who are trying to do one side, which is just the Blockchain, they are not going anywhere. The reason that I like their alliance with Accenture and AWS is because we know that we needed to do this end-to-end and this is going to be broader than just talking about Blockchain. >> Rebecca: Yes. >> And it's about the people, because you have to, ultimately it's the consumer and the base of the pyramid, producer. Both have identities, and if we are able to say, "This is the identity of the person," I can then help to influence their livelihoods. >> So it's putting a real face on the supply chain for the end consumer. I mean, at a time where consumers are demanding more transparency in the supply chain, demanding to know more about the source of the goods, of the products that they're buying, what has been the reception and what are you hearing back? >> I think we've had great receptions. We launched it at Davos, earlier this year. We've had a huge amount of interest and now slowly we're gaining sort of traction in terms of getting the pilots and putting them in place. And I think it's also something that people need to, initially it's a little bit of education, understanding, well, how does this actually all work? You know, is it just traceability? Is it just identity? Or is it actually all of those things? Understanding the use cases and embracing that it's not just one way of doing something and it's really a concept of embracing better business through better technology and innovation can actually be more sustainable and responsible businesses. So the traction has been great and we have a number of pilots in the pipeline. >> Yeah, in the past I used to believe that some things we should stop doing or stop eating because of the sustainable part of it, and I have learned that is not the case. You can do the right thing, you can make sure that you are doing the right thing and you can eat with no guilt. That's what everybody wants, right? This is the type of visibility you want to give from the consumer side, but not from the company side of it. The brands are, "Okay, I'm safe," because brands, they have a very good visibility from the distributor on, but they don't know what's going on behind that, and our products, this is so globalized nowadays, so fragmented. You know, it comes from so many different places. Brands, there is no way that they can control it if they don't have this veil. That's why we're trying to bring together. >> So when this fully does launch and the consumer is then seeing the face of the coffee grower in Brazil or in Kenya-- >> Yeah. >> And saying, "Okay," so then what happens then? How are they able to incentivize that farmer to do the right thing, as you say? >> There is a digital payment channel, powered by Mastercard, that you can then tip, so to speak, tip the farmer, donate money and actually say, "Well, there's multiple ways of doing things." Right? For example, if I'm the consumer scanning the product and we have a whole Lego city built upstairs that can showcase this, and say, "Right, this is how it works," and scan the product and where I can say, "Right, I want to be able "to donate an extra dollar for this farmer "because I really like the fact that you are sustainable. "And not burning the rainforest down "and protecting the orangutans or elephants or the birds. "So great, I'm going to give you an extra dollar." So this is how it's going to work on the app. >> And there are other consequences as well. There are so many organic products nowadays, but they're not really organic. So if you can prove they're organic, the farmers would feel more motivated to really grow that as an organic product because there is a premium. So it's not only the tip that you give to them, but also the fact that you can create a premium price situation that will motivate others to do the same. So brands would give the differentiator, farmers would feel like, "Okay, if I do this way, "it would be more profitable," and consumers would benefit from a real organic or a real product with the sustainability behind it. >> Great, consumers can trust more. >> Exactly. >> It's not just fake news. What are some of the, I mean, this is such a cool concept. What are some of the biggest challenges in really launching it and making it a reality? What is keeping you up at night? >> I think some of it is actually just education and getting it out there. And understanding that this is a lot of stakeholders. So, from consumer brands all the way down to the smallholder providers. It's a lot of people to link up and a lot of organizations to talk to. So some of it is just getting through that process and getting people to understand. Also, actually, hopefully we'll get consumers to adopt. >> Yeah. >> And understand that this is something that they will want to do. >> Yeah, this whole integration, like Christine said, it is important, right? So you understand all the key stakeholders. It don't need to be all of them at the beginning, but at least the key stakeholders in a supply chain. And how you can create the business incentive model for them to be part of that. So it's a mapping exercise. We're getting there and that's where you gain adoption, and if you get the consumer side doing this as well, so it creates a network effect. And that's why we're trying to do it at Mastercard. It's in our DNA, like, build the networks, right. Everybody knows that. So we wanted to bring this to the ecosystem, to contribute that, okay, so how can I create a network effect that they can exponentially scale for their whole marketshare, for their whole marketplace. >> I want to ask you a personal question. You've been in technology for a really long time and now-- >> Not that old though. >> (laughing) No, no. You're just a babe. But in terms of of the kinds of projects you've worked on and the kinds of ways you're thinking about technology and then this particular project at a time where climate change is a monumental challenge and the fate of our planet really hangs in the balance with the decisions that we're making, policy makers and consumers are making today. I mean, what is it like to work on this kind of product? >> That's a great question. Yeah, well, for all of these years, I go to work with this business mentality, you know, you're going to make more money for someone else. You're going to work for big company. And see some friends and family doing things for the society, I say, "Oh my gosh, I should do something like that." And now I feel like I can do both. We're talking now as a business. It's a great solution, but it mixes so well for the, you know, for the whole society. It makes me feel really, everyday going to work and say, "Oh, this is what I want to do. "This is so cool." I mean, I'm helping, I'm benefiting myself 'cause I go to the supermarket, I'm going to be the one who's going to tip the farmer. I'm going to be the one who's going to check where my shrimp comes from, right? So I'm doing this for my family. My kids are, I hope they can live in a better planet that know exactly where the products come from. >> And the family that you have that's not even been born yet, so that's the other thing, too, helping future generations. >> That's amazing. We're doing things that, we never know. >> Yes, you deserve the Nobel Peace Prize, Leandro. (all laughing) Thank you so much, Leandro and Christine, for coming on theCUBE. A really fun and fascinating conversation. >> Thank you. >> Thank you. >> I'm Rebecca Knight. Stay tuned for more of theCUBE's live coverage at the Accenture Executive Summit coming up after lunch. (upbeat music)

>>Ly from San Diego, California at the cube covering to clock in cloud native con brought to you by red hat, the cloud native computing foundation and its ecosystem Marsh. >>Welcome back. This is the cube live coverage three days wall to wall coverage of CubeCon cloud native con in San Diego. I'm Stu Miniman. My cohost for these three days is John Troyer. And welcome to the program. First of all, from the keynote stage, Heather Kirksey, who is the vice president of community and ecosystem development with the Linux foundation for CNCF part of Linux foundation and from some of the technology behind the scenes joining her, Sandy Pennys are the SVP of strategic engagement at attorney. Thank you so much for joining us. Right. So Heather, this was a really cool demo with a lot of things going beyond the scene. Uh, if people actually go watch an interview we did yesterday, uh, with, uh, the people at red hat talk about, uh, it's a good thing. It was cloud native because there was a brownout cower was lost, had to rebuild the entire thing. Um, and everybody up on stage, you know, the next day, didn't know anything the wiser. So, uh, you know, really cool pot on stage. Uh, you know, talking about 5g global engagement, China mobile, uh, other banks. I like, um, I'm sorry, other mobile providers, uh, like from Canada and from Europe involved in this. Um, give us a little bit of the, the, the foundation view as to, you know, how something like this comes together and how you get participation from, you know, the technology providers, the telco providers. Uh, you know, it takes, it takes a village. >>First of all, you have to be slightly mad. Um, but I mean that's, that's really kind of the premise of open source, right? Is that people come together and they build things together. And so we done some demos in the past, um, where we looked at sort of, you know, the, the modernization of the central office. And so we had had some, you know, some tea, you know, some tapes of folks that had been building things. And then we, you know, we sent out a call basically to the community and said, yeah, we'd like to do another one. And what we're going to try to do is full five G full called native, if you're interested in joining, yo come on. And so it just ended up that basically 15 organizations said, yes, that sounds like something that we would like to prove out. And 80 volunteers across those organizations ended up working on it. >>My understanding was about four months, uh, to, to put all the pieces together, bring us, bring us through kinda, you know, how the stack gets built and. >>Yeah, well I mean, so amongst some of the issues where you have five G itself is fairly new. So we, we started with sort of the complexities of getting equipment, you know, and getting five G radio. You know, we had a partner in China who had a 5g handset that then wanted us to indemnify, you know, all of these things. Uh, to the extent that like we as a nonprofit didn't feel comfortable signing the agreement. So it was, you know, it started actually just, I mean, this was so cutting edge with in terms of the five G aspect that getting equipment was challenging. Um, yeah. And that's before you even get to sort of the challenges of building the stack. So, um, so, you know, it started kind of figuring out what pieces started building things, um, you know, found some yo gaps in Coobernetti's around supporting the, the, the sophistication of networking that we have to do. Um, so we figured out how to work around it for the demo, but what we want to do is start upstreaming some, um, some changes into, into some of the projects there. >>All right, so San Deepa, your company's one of the providers inside here. So tell us what, what drew you into it and how it is living on that bleeding edge was something like five. >>Well, it's, it's absolutely thrilling living on that leading edge. It's exciting, you know, lots of risks. But the payoff yesterday was fantastic. Be able to complete that call on stage. You know, from our perspective, we were invited in fairly early on into the project. Uh, and we're, we're thrilled to be part of it. And as once we understood the scope and what everyone's trying to do, we realized like we're providing the, the SD wan for this project, connecting the public cloud, the private cloud, and we're deploying, uh, using containers, Kubernetes. And we are able to bring the entire thing together by creating one virtual network so that it's seamless and all the underlying infrastructure, that layer, layer two, layer one, the underlay is just completely invisible to be able to transport that call, to do the signaling, to do everything that needs to be done. >>So for us to become part of this project was really powerful for one, for us to just, uh, just work with some of the companies that were there, like the Linux foundation and tell the Nobel all the other big name players that were out there. And so that was, that was amazing. An amazing experience. But then the community itself that came together, like the people that we met, we met them all at the show. It's all phone calls, we met them all at the show and it really is a community filled with love and a real drive and desire, uh, to build something new and different. Right. Sprinkled with a bit of crazy. >>Yeah. >>Well, so I mean this is a, is a great example of how the Linux foundation can be a catalyst here. I mean one of the Linux foundation is so broad, the CNCF is so broad and you're operating in many domains in this being, you know, bringing the telecom world together, being one of them. But I don't know, can you maybe just talk a little bit about the ecosystem and the unique challenges of, I mean there are some times open source approaches that are a little more strongly opinionated. Like this is going to be our, this is, this is what we're working on. This is going to be our stack. This is the projects in our stack. CNCF has a obviously a, a well documented and open, uh, process around bringing projects in and projects graduating. How does that make your >>life harder? >> Yeah. Well, I mostly focus on our networking projects and working with the telecom industry. And yeah, I mean Telekom definitely likes to be opinionated, you know, I mean that's, that's kind of, and our soul. Um, and so that is also is useful because really at the end of the day, interoperability for the type of scale that telecom operators has is very important. Right? It's um, yeah, some of the cloud providers, right? It's up to the people who want to run on them to like work with their API APIs. But the, the telecom operators, they're using all these applications to provide services to their customers so they have a business need to make sure everything really works end to end. And so there's actually an initiative right now between, um, the LF networking projects and the GSM, uh, where we're really trying to, not to prescriptively, because we do also understand that that doesn't know, you're not going to get the exact same pieces of software that worked for every single operator's network or business, but with a lot more sort of UPenn opinion around, you know, what should the cloud platforms, whether they are VM based or container based, what do they look like and how can we start doing things like compliance and verification programs around commercial implementations, whether it is the underlying platform or whether it's the applications on top. >>And so that's the thing that, you know, we're, we're working on right now because at the end of the day, we're really needing to help them accelerate their, their deployments and, um, get that agility. That's the promise of. >>So, Heather, I want to go back to something you mentioned earlier that there were some gaps in Coobernetti's speak to how fast the community rallied around to, you know, allow this, uh, solution to go forward. >>Yeah. So, um, I'll, I mean basically this is what happens when you get a bunch of engineers together, you know, for the demo itself, we weren't going to fork or make our own sort of changes Kubernetes. So we, we did some things to, to tie things together. Probably you've seen SD when I see Rampart. But yeah, one of the, one of the big issues is just being able to expose multiple interfaces. Um, which, you know, in a service writer network you have multiple interfaces, right? Um, fi six support is another big issue. And so being able to expose those natively in Kubernetes or natively just using cloud native, it's something that we're still working on. Um, there, there are a couple of projects that are looking at that um, network service mesh. Uh, you know, maybe there's some different CNI who are beginning to think through that problem. Um, none of them were quite there. So yeah, we didn't want to start forking and writing pseudo Kubernetes code. Um, so we kinda just use some of the tools and the players in place to work around that. But we, what we would love is to upstream that code and to main line. Sure. >>Yeah. So Sandy would love to hear a little bit more about how SD wind fits in the entire multicloud discussion. Um, we were, we had a pop here in San Diego. There's a lab in Montreal and then there is a, a lab in France and we use public, uh, a combination of, uh, the Alibaba cloud in North America and in Europe. And what we had to do is we had to create a way for the phones to reach each other. So we had to do this initial signaling where you do the request and you have to get to all of the different pods to make the, to make the request. So what we did is we put our, um, containers and all the, in all the cloud providers and also in the labs and we were able to create that private network. And that was what allowed for the call signaling to happen. >>And for the actual call to actually be completed from one to handset to the other. Cindy, you're uh, uh, you talked about community, you know, you're an engineer, a stye in our eyes, a word is SDN when a word, I suppose they usually hear more on an enterprise side of the show. Right. And, uh, you know, talk with lots of folks who provide, you know, in, in that space. This is a little bit different, right? As you, I don't know if you've had a chance to wander either in the sessions or on the floor, kind of curious. There is some, a little bit of networking out there, a little bit networking, security and a couple of other, certainly some service mesh stuff. Right. I don't know. What are your thoughts about how this is growing up on the, in this open source world? It's, listen, it's growing up very fast, right? >>That's, that's 100% sure. I mean, the show is, is, is growing like leaps and bounds every year. It's insane. And that, that, that debt, that performance yesterday was in front of, I don't know how many thousands of people, but I mean that was huge and it was amazing. Um, and you're right, you know, normally when you're thinking about this kind of stuff, you're not necessarily thinking about the networking, but at the end of the day, you know, Kubernetes is a platform or a tool. SD wan is a tool. Um, and if you take all of these tools and put them together, you can actually build something wonderful, right? And that's what we did in this project here. We were able to deliver a 5g call and you know, run it everywhere. So I think what's important in the community, even though this is really primarily a developer event and developer show, you are seeing some edge people here, you are seeing some networking people here and people are the awareness of, Oh wait, you know, we need edge and we need networking to actually build, you know, commercializable platforms or products, right. Is, it's that awareness that's just, I think this year at least is really starting to come out. And I think next year it's going to be even more prevalent and you're going to the show me evolve, you know? And that's why where I kind of see it going. >>Yeah. I mean, I think application developers and general tend to think networking is amazing. It just happens to be, they're sort of like plumbing and power. Um, but to actually deliver it is a fairly complicated challenge and it's part of the reason we want to do the demo yesterday was actually to kind of show some of the challenges and to kind of show what it takes to set up a mobile network. So the F we're going to use Kubernetes to do that. They, you know, the developers here would have a little bit more understanding so that when we were like, we need, you know, we need multiple interfaces or we need to be able to address things in a certain way. They, they, they have a better understanding of why so they can help us from the telecom industry, uh, design and build it out. >>Yeah. I guess the last thing is we've had the cube of the open source summit. We've been to the open networking summit. Uh, you know, when you get off the stage, you put, you know, there's so many different open source projects that Dan just give us a view as to how they span across all of these communities to make sure that we don't end up with a lot of fragmented things. How does everything kind of pull together in the networking? All right, so, so many projects across so many sources, how does, how does Linux foundation make sure that we don't just end up with, you know, siloed, uh, you know, places? >>Well, yeah, to be, to be honest, it's a little bit of a challenge because sometimes the reason that we end up with multiple projects serving what looks like similar needs is because there are different technical approaches. And so might be one will work better than the other. I mean, that's kind of the idea of open source that people can try different things. Um, and, uh, we just try to help people have more, less of a not invented here sort of mindset that if there's a good reason, uh, to try a different approach, go for it. And let's see what, what takes root and what flowers. Um, but you know, also other people are doing things, so just because you're not aware of them. So we, you know, there's a lot of stuff around education and, um, sharing of information that we try to do that, that helps with that. But I mean, yeah. >>Heather, Cindy, thank you so much for joining us regulations on, on the demo. A lot of hard work. >>Thank you. I just have to tell you, I feel as though a thousand pound weight has been lifted off my shoulders out, but it was extraordinarily fun to do actually. >>It was fun. Thank you for John Troyer. I'm Stu Miniman getting towards the end of our three days wall-to-wall coverage. They're running for the tee shirts that are left, but we've got a couple more interviews. Thank you for watching the queue.

>> Narrator: Live from Las Vegas, it's theCUBE, covering UiPath Forward Americas 2019. Brought to you by UiPath. >> Welcome back everyone to theCUBE's live coverage of UiPath Forward. I'm your host Rebecca Knight, co-hosting alongside of Dave Vellante. We're joined by Param Kahlon, he is the Chief Product Officer at UiPath, thank you so much for coming on theCUBE. >> Thank you so much for having me here. >> So-- >> Big week! >> Yes. >> You've been busy! >> I have been busy. >> (Rebecca laughs) >> Thank you David. >> So this morning, you were up on the main stage, and you were sort of giving the audience a state of play of business today. And you were lamenting, saying, "Wasn't technology supposed to make our lives easier? "Wasn't it supposed to free us from the mundane, "and supposed to make us more efficient?" And yet, hasn't quite ended up that way. You had the quote, the famous quote, "We see computers everywhere "except in the productivity statistics," from Robert Solow, the Nobel winner. Can you refine that a little bit? And particularly within the context of the RPA market. >> Yeah, isn't it exciting? I mean, we really have so much technology that we live in today, yet we're busier, we're doing more mundane work than we've ever done before. We're more stressed than ever before. That just seems sort of paradoxical to me that, you know, all this stuff that was supposed to give us more time to do the things that we wanted to do, yet we keep doing the repetitive, robot type work that, you know, we thought technology will free us from. And I think that's fascinating that, you know, that's happening. And I think there's a few theories on why we think that's happening. I think it's happening because business has gotten a lot more complex. You know, companies are having to change business models on the fly. Digital transformation is effecting standard companies, regulated industries, in ways that they did not imagine, and companies don't know how to cope and manage all the technology well. And this where, I think, RPA is really, really useful, because it can help you change the processes, modernize the processes without having to go change, rip and replace those existing systems. You know, do the work that you were going to hire humans to do in moving data, moving processes from one system to another. Do that through robots. And that's what our robots can help free the humans, to be able to focus on the things that matter, the things that they care about, right? That's really what the beauty of the RPA is. >> So I wonder if you can help our audience, you know, understand UiPath a little bit better. You know, Daniel talks about, how is it that UiPath has ascended so quickly? And you appear to be achieving escape velocity. You kind of started out, you know, third, fourth, whatever it was, and now you're sort of number one in all these quadrants and waves. And so yesterday you talked about five pillars. And I want to unpack them a little bit. Open platform, rapid results, which I think is around ROI. Path to AI, scalability, and trust. So here's my question. Any one of your competitors could say the same thing. "Oh yes, we're open. "Oh, we get rapid ROI." So what makes UiPath different? >> I think actually not just saying those words, but making it happen, right? So anybody can say we've opened, we've done something, but do people actually have 400,000 community members that have actually using the platform on an active basis? Can you actually go to a website over the last two years and download the software and use it? How long does it take you to sign up for a cloud service that we have made available? What does it take for you to do that? I think all the things that we've invested in, in really enabling engagement with the community, right? Making it open, not just from a technology perspective, but from a people perspective as well, are the things that have differentiated ourselves. And those can be very generic terms, that you're right, other people can use as well, but I think we live those terms, right? We actually do everything in the product, from the business perspective, to make sure that openness is embraced. You know, when we look at building new capabilities, new products, we focus on, is it actually going to help our customers get quicker value, right? Is it going to help them reduce five clicks to be able to get that process done? And if so, then we should build this feature because it will make it easier, and engage more people in the audience, more people like the customer to be able to get work done. So we're super excited about bringing all those capabilities >> Okay, so the big part of that is the product. I mean if you have a great product, that always helps. It's not the sole condition, but it helps a lot. >> Param: Yeah. >> Many times we've seen leaders that don't have the best product, but I'm guessing you feel as though you have the best product. So architecturally, what is it about UiPath that's different, that differentiates you? >> Yeah, I think the core difference is, I'd say, fundamentally at a company level, is in our culture. This is a culture that's built around customers. This is a culture that's built around humility. This is a culture that's built around getting things done, and being fast about it, right? You saw a lot of product innovation that we did. If we told you a year ago, we're going to do all this, you would've laughed at our face, right? We're continue to do that pace, at the pace the market wants. And I think that is the fundamental difference in us, versus the rest of the companies out there. I'd also like to believe that we are, from a technology perspective, we have an edge, because we didn't start with the legacy of doing RPA many, many years ago. We have a much more modern stack. You alluded to the fact that we came in from behind, and we've taken to the number one place very quickly. I think part of that is the architecture decisions that we've made are more modern, are not vetted in a lot of legacy, that are helping us bring more rapid innovation to the market. That are helping us build more resilient technology, that's helping our customers achieve those outcomes, the goals that they want to be able to do, more easily on our platform. We have a number of our customers that actually did not start with us. They started with one of our competitors, and they said, "We started, we thought it was going to work, "it didn't. We came to UiPath and we saw that "it actually works." And that's a testament to the technology that we built, that's actually helping deliver the results that our customers expect it to. >> Rebecca: So, >> Dave: You know, >> Sorry Rebecca, go ahead. >> I was just going to say that, one of the other things you said this morning, was that bots allow you to focus on you, focus on the more creative aspects of your job, and you brought up some customers, PepsiCo and Nielsen, too. Can you describe sort of, how you're helping customers focus on themselves, these employees who are now, you're taking away the tedium, and that's great, and they're giddy about that. But how are they, then, channeling that energy into strategy, innovation, and the sort of more value added things? >> Param: Yeah, you know I'll give you a really quick example of a customer, that I worked with, it's a bank. And in this bank, it's a retail bank, and what used to happen before we deployed UiPath, was the banker had to go to like six different applications, and pull reports of the customer they were about to go meet, print them all out, review the data, and be able to suggest what the customer's unique needs might be, right? So for that half an hour appointment with the customer, it used to take that banker another half an hour to get ready for that appointment. After the deployed UiPath robots, UiPath's robots now go pull up the data for the customer, from those six different core banking systems, and be able to feed that to a machine learning system, to suggest what their unique needs might be. So they need five minutes to get ready for that appointment. They're more ready for that appointment, and they deliver a better outcome. People want to help other people, right? They don't want to go to systems, and print reports, and read them, and understand what it might be. They really want to be able to go meet with the customer, and help solve their problems, that help the customer, but also help the business goals for the bank. And that's what makes the people that are using our technology more happier, right? It makes them free enough to say that, instead of now spending half an hour printing stuff, I now have that extra 25 minutes, because I still need five minutes to get ready, I have the extra 25 minutes, to think about, what else can I do to further more creative aspects of my job? Or maybe I don't have to work as hard as I did in the past. >> I wonder if I could ask you about, I've been drawing parallels today with another company, ServiceNow, that I've been tracking for a long time. And they started out in this kind of narrow, change management, ITSM space >> Param: ITSM, yeah. >> And then expanded their TAM dramatically. And you shared with us, yesterday and today in the keynote, You've got RPA for devs and testers, you know StudioT, that targets 2% of the market. and then you've got the citizen developers, that's StudioX, that expands up to 10%. Business analysts, which is Explorer and Insights, that gets you to 25%. And then apps, where automation is the apps, that was a little fuzzy to me, so I want to dig into it a little bit, but that's 100% of the market. That's your, whatever it is, 20, 40, 50 billion dollar TAM. My question is this, I was going to the event last night, and I ran into some business analysts. So you're already working with those folks. So it seems like you're learning from folks that are sort of using a product, that was maybe developed for testers and devs, but they're using it today as business analysts, and you're improving that. Can you help us just understand your product strategy, just in terms of what you've announced, and how it dove tails into those segments that we just talked about? >> Absolutely, so you know, our product strategy isn't tied to like, what are we going to do to grow our TAM, and other stuff. Our marketing organizers can get super excited about that, Bobby is all over that, but really everything we've done in the product today, is about listening to customers. Understanding what their needs are, what do they want us to grow into, and what capabilities they want us to go build, right? So we've expanded the StudioX, not because we thought everybody should have StudioX, but we actually had customers that took our product, the Studio product, and said, "We want to roll this out "to every single user within the enterprise." Because they thought that every person has unique needs and they should be able to build a bot for themselves. Well they came back and told us, well we wanted to do that, but this isn't really quite ready for all of our accountants. This isn't quite ready for all of our business analysts. Can you actually make it simple? All of these people use Excel, can you make it look like Excel? So we took all of that feedback, and that's what we focused on, building StudioX. So we can make sure we meet the needs of the market. And every single pillar of the investment that we've done, has focused around making sure that we're able to meet those requirements around those. Automation is the application, now I'm going to go to that. And that also came from, you know, there's different kinds of, if you look at, take a product like Analytics, right? Or Reporting. Different people within the organization have different kinds of needs. There's people that are like, "Hey I want to create my own reports, "I want to slice and dice, I want to understand the strands, "and I'm going to use it this way." Then there's somebody who says, "Oh, I want to bring more data into that, "and I want to do data joins, "and I really am going, I'm a data junky, "I'm going to build a data model around it." And then there's users that are like, "I just want to use the report, I want somebody else to build them, I just want this report every Monday morning." Those are more executives, they're like, I just want to look at the data, let me tell you my report, and I'm just going to use it, I'm just an end user. And that's what we're trying to do, is from an automation perspective, there's people that have different types of needs. There's going to be people that are true developers, RPA developers that we've targeted with Studio, then there's people that are business analysts that are like, I can do some stuff with it, I'm not going to spend 8 hours a day every day working on it, I may spend two hours, once a week, building something that's relevant for me. And that's what StudioX is targeted to. But then there's a whole lot of other users, that are like, I don't want to build anything myself, but I want to use it, things that are relevant for me. These are people, maybe like contact center agents, that are taking orders from customers. So, let's say, in a typical Fortune 500 company, if you hired a person to take orders today, you'd have to go train the person in at least 10 different applications to be able to take orders, right? You'd have to show them how it works, when a customer calls, if it's a material order take it in this SOP system, if it's a this order that came through an acquired company, take it in that system. That takes a lot of time. What is the call center agent, the order taking person, doing? They're essentially capturing some very basic information from the customer, that are saying, I am this customer, I want this, this, and this product to be shipped at this address, and tell me when you can ship it, and what is the price for that? What we're trying to do with that application, is give that order agent a very simple interface, where they can punch in the three things simply, and get the results back that the customer cares about, without having to learn how to jump hoops across these 15 different applications to be able to enter that. Because robots can learn those applications, and take what you have put into that interface, and do the work of putting in, cascading that data, and extracting information from those systems. That is the concept behind, automation is the application. >> Sounds like a killer app. >> Yeah, it is. Yeah I like to say it that way as well. >> I want to ask you about cloud. Cause you guys announced the ability, and I did it, I went and downloaded, not downloaded but I signed up, it took seconds. I mean it was simple, and now I got to invite other people, and start, you know, digging in. But we saw this with CRM. Email, Service Management, HR, now even analytic databases, all got SaSified. >> Param: Right. >> I'm curious as to why, not really it took so long, why didn't you start with SaS? Is there something unique about RPA? Is it cause Daniel was a Microsoft guy, pre-Azure? And will this industry eventually go all SaS? Or will it be hybrid, or? >> Param: I think it's like any other workload in the enterprise, there's some customers that are going to want to remain on premise, because that's who they are, that's what they do. >> Governance, compliance, all those, security, right. >> Governance, compliance, you know, we're special. And then there's other customers that are like, you know, we're going where the rest of the world is going. We're going to let this data center work in a cloud, that we believe is secure, has the governance and compliance. So I think we're meeting customers where they are. We're going to continue to support on premise deployments. We will continue to support deployments for customers that want to deploy on private cloud infrastructure. And we'll keep deploying customers that want to use in SaS. Your question was why did it take so long for this to go to that? I think, my theory behind that, is that a lot of the automations that are happening, are touching systems that are only available on premise. Some of these are affecting systems that haven't moved to the cloud, So companies are saying, well I've got to put my robot on premise, because it's got to touch this application that's on premise. I might as well deploy the whole infrastructure on premise. And what we've done with the cloud service, is we've given you the options. You will definitely run their infrastructure in the cloud. That manages and governs the robots. And you can decide to run the robots on premise, or you can decide to run the robots in the cloud, as VMs and machines in any data center. >> So if I can put it in my words, the data lives on prem. >> Param: Yes. >> So you're bringing the automation to where the data lives, independent of the cloud, so that's really why. So the latency issues, we mentioned the other ones, compliance, governance, you know, security, etc. But there's going to be performance implications as well. If you've got a lot of data on-prem, you want to be on prem. >> Again, yeah, it just depends upon, if you've got a lot of data on-prem, and more importantly the business applications that you're using, let's say you're trying to automate a process in a mainframe application that hasn't moved through any cloud yet, that's sitting on a server in the on-premise environment. And the robot can only access it if it's deployed on a machine that sits within the same network, then you've got to put the robot in there, that can access it there as well. >> Dave: It makes sense, it's not a standalone application. It's automating other apps, and touching others, it's got dependencies all over the place. >> Exactly, it's sort of like the lowest common denominator. If every application your touching is the cloud, there's no reason you want to put the robot on premise. You would want to put the robot in the cloud as well. But the reality is that people have moved some applications to the cloud, but not every application to the cloud, that the business process is touching. >> Dave: Well a lot of ERP, a lot of financials, I would imagine the folks I talked to last night were insurance industry, so. >> Yeah, those industries have a lot of homegrown systems, built a long time ago. >> Rebecca: So there's been a lot of exciting product announcements at this conference, but I want you to talk about what's coming up ahead. What are some of the things that you're working on, that are most exciting to you, as these bots become smarter, more durable, and more able to take on complex tasks? What are we going to be talking about at next year's UiPath? >> Yeah, I think that's a really interesting question, and I think you'll hear talk next year about a few things. One is, we started a lot of initiative this year, and we're going to release the version one of many of our products this time. We're going to keep focusing on making sure we make them enterprise ready, we take the feedback across the customers, and make it ready for what they're able to do. I think another key initiative that we're focused on, is contact center. We see mass adoption of our technology in contact centers, and today what we do, is we give our customers the components that we will deploy in call centers, but we don't actually have a finished solution for call centers. Call centers have a lot of automation opportunities, we'll build a more finished solution for contact centers. The other stuff that you'll hear us do more next year, is the concept of applications. We have some ways to build applications today, but I think we're going to grow that ability to create applications, compose applications, very quickly, and you'll hear us do a lot more next year there. >> Rebecca: Well we'll look forward to hearing about it. >> Param: I really look forward to telling you next year about it. >> Dave: Thanks for coming on. >> Rebecca: Thank you so much, Param >> Thank you so much. >> I'm Rebecca Knight for Dave Vellante, that wraps up day one of UiPath Forward, come back tomorrow for more. >> [Electronic Music]

>>From Miami beach, Florida. It's the queue covering a cryonics global cyber summit 2019 brought to you by Acronis. >>Okay. Welcome back everyone. This is the cubes coverage here at the Chronis global cyber summit 2019 I'm John furrier, host to the cube. We're Miami beach at the Fontainebleau hotel with a second day. Excited to have this next guest on Christian Garcia, senior vice president of finance and administration at the chauffeur housing ShipIt housing Institute of technology. Did they get it right? Almost right. housing. welcome back. Welcome to the cube. Good to see you. Good to see you. Thanks for having me here. This is a really cool story because you guys are doing something very entrepreneurial, right, with education, right. Okay. Inspired by the founder of a Chronis. Exactly as well. He's got. He's made a lot of money in his day, so he's doing some good things with it. Um, but this is an interesting opportunity for you to take a minute to explain what this Institute stands for. >>It's sit for short. >> Yeah, so sat actually as a name Schaffhausen Institute of technology. So we are actually starting up a university in Schaffhausen in Schaffhausen. These a beautiful tiny CD in Switzerland, 30 minutes or 30 minutes from the Zurich airport, which is the biggest airport in Switzerland, uh, close to Germany at the border with Germany. And uh, so that's kind of your, in the center of Europe and that's where we plan to have our main campus. Now let me tell you this story. How about the vision about target, his vision on these, on this project? Um, he, he said that, you know, uh, he needs to have skills in 10 to 15 years time that nowadays at the institutions that do not do not, do not bring, um, there is the need of computer scientists that are not enough computer scientists and we are having emergent technologies and these is something that provides us with tremendous opportunities, which we cannot even imagine nowadays what type of opportunities and to be on the forefront there. >>That's why we want to found these are, we have founded the Schaffhausen Institute of technology. >> Chef housing is a technology just for share. The day was just two months ago, couple months ago. It was two months ago where we, where we have started up the legal structure and now we are really laying the foundation. We have to find some that are kind of secured for for the next 12 to 18 months. And um, we are, you know, defining the strategic advisory board. We are setting up the curriculum for our students. And so it's everything up and running and to be defined. So risk is right at the creation present at creation. We are talking about this as a, this is the origination story. Exactly. Of the shelf house in Institute of technology. Exactly. What's the vision? >>I mean obviously getting skills for jobs that are our century, our time that's having been teaching in universities and before I get back. But is it about being open and what's the vision is just Switzerland is going to be global. Can you just share, what do you guys are thinking? >>Sure, absolutely. So basically what we are trying to do is to design a curriculum in um, computer science and physics because we think that computer science or present the software in physics represents the hardware. And these two things need to be combined in a entrepreneurial mindset or with an entrepreneurial mindset, which means that we also want to foster the transformation process and the anti entrepreneurship. Now, let me go back to the software path. Uh, our curriculum will cover, um, software engineering, cybersecurity. That's why we are here today. Uh, the curriculum we also cover, um, on the physics part. On the hardware part, we'll cover, uh, quantum technologies, uh, quantum physics and also new materials. Um, and these will be kind of the foundation that will build the curriculum for students, computer scientists to have physics and physics to have computer science in their curriculum so that at some point in time they can come together and to research together. >>This is the digital transformation that we're talking about. The, the intersection and the confluence of physical reality. A world that we live in, whether it's a baseball game or a soccer match to the digital culture, they're not mutually exclusive anymore and they're together. And then the impact is profound. I can only imagine. IOT, industrial, IOT, airplanes, cars, electricity, electronic batteries, all these things, correct. It's software and digital. And physical material. Exactly that you guys are thinking. >>Exactly. Exactly that and actually also considering the industry, talking to the industry, talking to chief information technology officers around the world to understand what they need are and what type of they believe of skills are needed in in 10 to 15 years time. And that's what we want to build up now to get >>well you guys car gotta go, you gotta go faster because there's jobs now. There's thousands of jobs right now in cybersecurity. There's thousands and thousands of jobs for provision and cloud computing. Amazon educate. We talked to them all the time. They just can't get the word out fast enough that Hey, if you're unemployed there's no excuse for being unemployed. Write down there's so many new jobs. But because someone didn't go to the linear school and exactly know go step by step over the years and now you can level up very quickly. Exactly for certification. But you guys are taking a much more bigger idea around real kind of masters level. Is that what it is? Undergraduate masters level? What's the level of, actually we, we, we are starting >>out with this university and we have already students that are at our or with our partner universities currently in Singapore with NUS. And we then move to Karnak and Molly here in the U S um, in order to have it, we'll do a degree. So that's a unique opportunity to already start up with some presence, uh, in, in education. And uh, you ultimately, they will be then acquired. So we hope by, by, by, by the industry and the were terrific. Elon Musk is in there somewhere innovating with who knows what's next out there and he's around. And next Sergei is out there too. A exactly. Exactly. So just look at our, at our home page, look at the curriculum, which we are currently defining now. Eh, that would be, that would be great on sit.org take me through how it works. I know you're just starting, but as you guys look at the world, I mean, first of all, I can see, I can see the attractiveness of a dual degree. >>Yeah. Because most kids get bored in college. They're freelancing anyway. They're learning on their own. I get that. But I can S so I want, so as you guys start building it out, what's going on? What's going, how's it work? What are you guys doing? You're recruiting tickets through the, the factory of work that needs to get done, if you will. What's the workflows look like? What's happening right now? So currently, I mean, we are talking about the university because we, we have students and we will have students and we weren't to have the best talents, uh, globally available. And that's why we are building institution that attracts those talents. And these is kind of the first priority to have, do I have the talents to get the tens to get students come to, to, to sit? And obviously the second part is he said, well, talking to the CEOs and Tito was in to understand what are the needs in 10 to 15 years as an outcome of this digital transformation. >>I mean, the world is computerized. Uh, as you just mentioned before, there are not enough computer scientists currently available. So four out of five companies in Switzerland direction also globally are lacking. Uh, of computer scientists and they understand, you know, at what the digital transformation means. And that's something that we really try to understand as well to build it up the curriculum. What's the timeline of starting with students? Is you right away? Do you have a location? Is there a building, I mean, give us a timeline. When did classes start? When you start bringing people in? Is it happening now? I mean, absolutely. So, so actually currently we are, we are hunting at, at uh, at some campus locations, looking at some campus locations, each a thousand where our main campus will be, will be located. Um, at the, at the, at the same time we are really building buildings structure. >>So we are appointing the strategic advisory board will be, we twill direct, eh, the curriculum of the university. Um, and, and which is represented already by, uh, very, um, great scientists. One of them, the president of the strategic advisory board being professor Dr. Noble selloff, which is a Nobel prize winner. And which actually brings in that, that new ma new material, um, science in our physics curriculum. So that's another thing that we are currently trying to do to build up that governance appropriate components. And third element that we are looking at is also to attract uh, industries and companies that sponsor the students. And that's actually an attractive ecosystem that we are trying to build up to combine science education and also entrepreneurship in business. In order to foster that, which means that we are looking at the campus, we are setting up a research center and I'm talking about two or three years down the line, the research center and then also a tech park where we can commercialize the innovation that the science green Springs in. >>So all in all we really aim to have a closed ecosystem and self sustaining ecosystem. Hopefully that we are going to establish. It's a really big idea. Congratulations. It's bold. It's and it's relevant. Absolutely. So I got to ask you the question, how do you finance all this? Who's paying for it? So tell us how do we get funded? It's very important. Otherwise we pull in, start up with such a tremendous pace. Uh, actually the vision is, is from Sergei Velo self, uh, founder and CEO of Acronis. Um, he, he's, Hey has actually secured the initial founding of the institution and now really we need to have more partners on board in order to make this self sustaining education edge educational system system as sustainable as you are going to be tuition base or scholarship based. Have you guys thought about that? Um, in terms of students it would be tuition-based ah, that's a classical classical model or at least at least in Switzerland and obviously to get the industry sponsoring students in order to also down the line employee them later on. >>That would be the idea situation. Nice vision for Sergei and nice gesture. But you've got to look at what his business is doing. They created a category called cyber protection. Extending the benefit to him is more candidates know physics edge. So why not? This is a great vision. Absolutely the win-win. Absolutely. And we all believe in that the entire, um, you know, stand up team believe in that vision. That's where we are here and building up this institution. Well when you need to go global will be in Silicon Valley and waiting for you guys to come there and collaborate with us there. I hope. I hope that because we want to compliment each other. As I mentioned, computer scientists, our need is globally and obviously also in the Silicon Valley and why not? I think the collaboration aspect is going to be a big part of the growth as you guys get >>settled in on the the first use case in Shevon housing. Exactly. You know, and get that built out, but I think with digital technologies, I think there'll be a great collaboration, bring some good talent in as faculty and advisors and exactly get the flywheel going except congratulations. Thanks for coming on. The key, the education game is changing with modernization of a global impact of technology for good. You're seeing the landscape of innovation hit education. This is another great example of it. Super proud. The interview. Thanks for coming on and sharing the insights. The world continues to evolve. Of course, the cube is, they're watching every turn. I'm John Feria here in Miami beach for the Crohn's global cyber summit. 2019 deck with more coverage after this short break.

you live from Las Vegas it's the cube covering you I pat forward America's 2019 brought to you by uipath welcome back everyone to the cubes live coverage of UI path forward here at the Bellagio in Las Vegas Nevada I'm your host Rebecca night co-hosting alongside Dave Volante we are joined by Gavin Jackson he is the senior vice president and managing director amia at uipath thanks so much for coming you are brand spanking new to brands thanking you AWS for four years yeah joined UI paths in September yeah I want to start this conversation by having you talk a little bit about what what appealed to you about UI path and what more do you want to make the leap after four years at AWS yeah so I had the privilege to be west of really having a really close proximity to enterprise customers and getting the opportunity to listen to what they really wanted when they were talking about their digital transformation journeys and as it turns out the sort of cloud first in the automation first eras if you will are operating models at to two sides of the same coin if you think about what the that the cloud proposition has been over the last number of years it's really been about sort of reducing or eliminating the undifferentiated heavy lifting so that builders can build and then that turned into an operating model principle and it became sort of cloud first it's the same thing for the automation world you know we are reducing and eliminating the undifferentiated heavy lifting of Tata a product of business processes and tasks and everything else whether they're complex tasks or simple tasks removing that so that builders can build and business people can innovate and given them the freedom to do what they need to do as business owners think about AWS we obviously follow them very closely yeah anybody but it strikes you didn't thank you such are filters yeah what's the analog so what I think we again I would say that we are we are providing tools so the builders could build but at the same time our our products that works across the entire business stack whether that is sort of automation first as an operating principle across all businesses or whether it's across a business persona whether it's a CFO or somebody in accounts or a salesperson or whatever might be we're building tools that take the mundane tasks away from those users so that they have the freedom to go and serve their customers or or innovate within finance or do the do the job that they really love doing and that's really important for the business it turns out there's not a lot of value and a lot of the work that people do every day so if we can remove some of that then innovation will have an exponential curve of progress and that's what we're focused on today yes yeah again there are similarities there so if I understand the you're shifting one date asked allowing people freeing them up to do so that they can have a strategic impact in their business yes yeah yeah I think it is so if you look at even the technology paradigms and how cloud and AWS evolved and then also the layer on how uipath is evolving in the same way so you have computing and compute power started really with the mainframe and went to distributed servers and then to virtual machines and then from virtual machines it went to hosted virtual machines in the cloud and then from then it went to containers and now we're in this world of server lists we're in the cloud right so effectively the logic lives in server lists and the infrastructure sort of disappears and that provides massive scale in the automation world you started off with big monolithic processes you then had sort of network processes with software and data in the middle of all of that networked RPA really came in as an early sort of tool to help automate a lot of that a lot of processes and now in the realms of sort of automation as a function where in the end like the end game really is where automation is the application and the the applications themselves the data sources the processes really disappear so that the best done analogy I can come up with a metaphor acting um up with is I'm a Marvel fan I'm a geeky kind of Marvel fan of my favorite character is his Iron Man or Tony Stark and more specifically the Jarvis AI so what's happening all the time with with Tony Stark in the Jarvis a is he's interacting with his AI user interface all the time and what's happening in the background is that Java she's working with probably you know a hundred different applications and a hundred different data sources and everything else and rather than having you know a human go and do what the integration work that robots are doing that for him and it's just coming back as a as an outcome yeah I'm gonna keep pushing on this yeah similarities and differences because where it seems to break down is where our PA is focusing on the citizen developer the the end-user I'm afraid of AWS I won't go near it I see that console I call it my techies hey you know AWS is you know you got to be you know pretty technical to actually leverage it at the same time I'm thinking well maybe not maybe my builders are building things that I can touch but help us square that circle yeah so I think you the world is trending towards as much automation as possible so if it can be automated or if you can reduce the the burden to get to innovation I think you know technology is moving that way even in coding I think the transit we're seeing whether it's AWS or anyone else is low to no code and so we we occupy a world within the RPA space or the intelligent automation space where we're providing tools for people that don't need a requirement or or a skill set to code and they can still manufacture a few world their own automations and particularly with a release that we're just announcing today which is Studio X it really kind of reduces the friction from a business user where's zero understanding of how to code to build their own automations whether it's kind of recording a process or just dragging and dropping different components into a process even like even I could do that and that's saying something I can tell you yes exactly yeah this idea of democratizing the the automation the building that you said yeah very much so what will this mean I mean what what does what does that bode for the future of how work gets done because that is at the core of what you're doing is typically understanding how and where work gets done or the bottlenecks where the challenges and how can our PA fix this so I think ultimately like a lot of technologies it's really about the the exponential curve of productivity and whether you're looking at a national level a global level a company level a human level every level productivity has declined really over the last number of years and technology hasn't done a great job to improve that and you can say that some technologies have done a good job again I'd use a TBS is a good job in terms of the proliferation or the how prolific you can get more code out and more more progress there but overall productivity has declined so our sort of view of the world is if you can democratize automation if you can use or add a digital workforce to your to your to your teams then you'll have an exponential curve of productivity which a human level is important company level is important a national level is important and probably at global level is important you know you guys might be right place right time as well yeah because I remember you know all the spending in the 80s said receive growth everywhere except the Nobel prize-winning economist Robert Solow yeah [Laughter] [Music] you guys are hitting it right at the right time yeah you be able to take credit for a lot of it but yeah your thoughts on that in terms of productivity depending yeah I think it is pent up I think that is where where we're at right now and it's ready to be unleashed and I think that these technologies are are the technologies that will unleash it I think really what's happened over the last number of decades probably is that the six trillion dollar IT industry they exist today has largely kind of increased productivity or performance of other technologies it hasn't really increased output so whether it's sort of you know the core networking when Cisco started core networking there was a big increase I would imagine in connectivity and outputs then the technologies that were laid on top of that maybe less so and it was just really kind of putting bad band-aids on problems so it was really technology solving technology problems rather than technology solving human output problems and so I think that this is now the most tangible technology category that really is turning technology into value and productivity for technology really unlocking a lot of value one of the things that your former boss Jeff Bezos said was bet on dreamy businesses that have unlimited upside these these dreamy businesses customers love them they grow to very large sizes they have strong returns on capital and they can endure for decades I wonder if you could put you iPad in that context of a dreamy business what does he know right I mean nobody right I mean so and this is one of the reasons I was attracted by the way to DUI path because I think I think that the robots themselves if you can just kind of look at the subcategory of the robot I think it's on a similar curve to how Gordon Moore was talking about the Intel microprocessor in 1965 and the exponential curve of progress I think we were on that similar curve so when I sort of project five years from now I just think that the amount the robots will be able to do the cognitive kind of capabilities it will be able to do are just phenomenal so and customers customers give us feedback all the time about to two things they love and they value what we do the value is important because it's very empirical for the first time they can actually deploy a technology and see almost an immediate return on their technology whether it's a point technology solving one process or a group of processes they can see an immediate empirical return the other thing that I like to measure I quite like is that they value it so they think they love it they love and value it so they love it meaning it actually induces an emotion so when you when you watch the robots in action and they watch something that has been holding your team back or there's been stifling productivity or whatever it is people get giddy about it it's quite fascinating to see comment about Gordon Moore and Ty that's a digital transformation when I think of digital transformation I think of data yeah what's the difference in a business in a digital business it's how they use data yeah they put data at the core and four years we march to the cadence of Moore's law and that's changed its that that's not what the innovation the engine is today it's it's machine intelligence it's data and it's cloud for scale where do you guys fit I mean obviously AI is a piece of that but but maybe you could add some color to where our PA fits in that equation so I think that's an important point because there's a lot of miscommunication I think about really what it means when you talk about digital transformation and what it means to be digitally transformed and really to see transformed you're really talking about a category of customers which are large more institutional enterprises and governments because they have something to transform what they're transforming into is more of a digital native sort of set of attributes more insurgent mindsets and these companies are to your point they're very data hungry they harvest as much data as they can from from value from data they're very customer centric they focus on the customer experience they use other people's resources oh the cloud being one great example of that and the missing point from what you said is they automate everything they've to meet it so part of the digital transformation journey is if it can be automated it will be automated and anything that's new will be born automated so let me ask a follow-up on that is there a cultural difference in amia versus what you're seeing in North America in terms of the receptivity to automation I mean there are certain parts of of Europe which are you know more protective of jobs do you see a cultural difference or are they kind of I mean we do see even some resistance here but when you talk to customers they're like no it's it's wonderful I love it what are you seeing in Europe so I don't I don't see much of a cultural difference there and I see don't I don't see yet I haven't seen any feedback yes Peres I'm very new still but I haven't seen anybody talk about really that this technology is a technology to take jobs out I think most people see this technology as a way of getting better performance out of humans you know pivoting them towards more so I would say like in some markets in my in my in my prior life in in many prior lives I would say that there's some countries like France for example that would have been a little bit more stayed within their approach to new technologies and adoption not so with regards to automation they see this as a real and game productivity increase thank you I think that's true for people who have tasted it yeah but I do think there's still some reticence in the ranks until they actually experience it that's why we'll talk to some customers about it they'll have bought a Thon's and just a yeah to educate people and what's possible to let them try to build their own robots and then people then the light bulbs go off that it's taking away the aggravations the frustrations the mundi the drudgery and then you said people get giddy about those things you don't have to do that yeah but then the question is also so so what creative things are you doing now so how are you spending your time what are you doing differently that makes your job more interesting more compelling yeah and and and I think that's the real question - so what is the okay yes receiving some money and people aren't having to do those mundane tasks but then what are what is the value add that the employees are now bringing to the table yeah so in actually sit and it takes made the right point as well in terms of the mechanism for doing that is the the part of the battle here is to spark the imagination just like anything really just let you like it back in the Amazon wild it's all of our spark in the imagination if you can if you can imagine it you can build it it's the same thing really with within our world now is figuring out with customers what think what tasks do they do that they hate doing either a user level or a downstream level what are the things that they really want to do that they need our help to harvest and so we do the same sort the same sort of things that we would have done with AWS where we did lots of hackathons and you bought lots of technology partners in with us and we would sort of building all of this we do exactly the same thing with the RP a space it's exactly the same this is really important because creativity is going to become an increasingly important because if productivity goes up it means you can do the same amount of work with less people so it is going to impact jobs and people are gonna have to be comfortable to get out of their comfort zone and become creative and find ways to apply these technologies to really advance but you know drive value to their organizations and actually I look at this as well as a long term technology whereas a long term technology is something that's important for my children I've three and they're still very young so twelve ten and six but eventually they will go into the workplace with these skills embedded they will just know the how you get work done is you have your robot do a whole load of tasks for you here and your your job is to build and to be creative and to harvest data and to manipulate data and and serve customers and focus on the customer experience that's really what it's all about the real brain works I've been a pleasure having you on the show at uipath thank you so much appreciate it i'm rebecca night for j4 day Volante please stay tuned for more from the cubes live coverage of uipath coming up in just a little bit

>> from Cambridge, Massachusetts. It's the Cube covering M I T. Chief data officer and information quality Symposium 2019. Brought to you by Silicon Angle Media. >> Welcome back >> to M I. T. Everybody watching the Cube, The leader in live tech coverage. My name is Dave Volonte here with Paul Guillen. My co host, Tom Davenport, is here is the president's distinguished professor at Babson College. Huebel? Um, good to see again, Tom. Thanks for coming on. Glad to be here. So, yeah, this is, uh let's see. The 13th annual M I t. Cdo lucky. >> Yeah, sure. As this year. Our seventh. I >> think so. Really? Maybe we'll offset. So you gave a talk earlier? She would be afraid of the machines, Or should we embrace them? I think we should embrace them, because so far, they are not capable of replacing us. I mean, you know, when we hit the singularity, which I'm not sure we'll ever happen, But it's certainly not going happen anytime soon. We'll have a different answer. But now good at small, narrow task. Not so good at doing a lot of the things that we do. So I think we're fine. Although as I said in my talk, I have some survey data suggesting that large U. S. Corporations, their senior executives, a substantial number of them more than half would liketo automate as many jobs as possible. They say. So that's a little scary. But unfortunately for us human something, it's gonna be >> a while before they succeed. Way had a case last year where McDonald's employees were agitating for increasing the minimum wage and tThe e management used the threat of wrote of robotics sizing, hamburger making process, which can be done right to thio. Get them to back down. Are you think we're going to Seymour of four that were maybe a eyes used as a threat? >> Well, I haven't heard too many other examples. I think for those highly structured, relatively low level task, it's quite possible, particularly if if we do end up raising the minimum wage beyond a point where it's economical, pay humans to do the work. Um, but I would like to think that, you know, if we gave humans the opportunity, they could do Maur than they're doing now in many cases, and one of the things I was saying is that I think companies are. Generally, there's some exceptions, but most companies they're not starting to retrain their workers. Amazon recently announced they're going to spend 700,000,000 to retrain their workers to do things that a I and robots can't. But that's pretty rare. Certainly that level of commitment is very rare. So I think it's time for the companies to start stepping up and saying, How can we develop a better combination of humans and machines? >> The work by, you know, brain Nelson and McAfee, which is a little dated now. But it definitely suggests that there's some things to be concerned about. Of course, ultimately there prescription was one of an optimist and education, and yeah, on and so forth. But you know, the key point there is the machines have always replace humans, but now, in terms of cognitive functions, but you see it everywhere you drive to the airport. Now it's Elektronik billboards. It's not some person putting up the kiosks, etcetera, but you know, is you know, you've you've used >> the term, you know, paid the cow path. We don't want to protect the past from the future. All right, so, to >> your point, retraining education I mean, that's the opportunity here, isn't it? And the potential is enormous. Well, and, you know, let's face it, we haven't had much in the way of productivity improvements in the U. S. Or any other advanced economy lately. So we need some guests, you know, replacement of humans by machines. But my argument has always been You can handle innovation better. You can avoid sort of race to the bottom at automation sometimes leads to, if you think creatively about humans and machines working as colleagues. In many cases, you remember in the PC boom, I forget it with a Fed chairman was it might have been, Greenspan said, You can see progress everywhere except in the product. That was an M. I. T. Professor Robert Solow. >> OK, right, and then >> won the Nobel Prize. But then, shortly thereafter, there was a huge productivity boom. So I mean is there may be a pent up Well, God knows. I mean, um, everybody's wondering. We've been spending literally trillions on I t. And you would think that it would have led toe productivity, But you know, certain things like social media, I think reduced productivity in the workplace and you know, we're all chatting and talking and slacking and sewing all over the place. Maybe that's is not conducive to getting work done. It depends what you >> do with that social media here in our business. It's actually it's phenomenal to see political coverage these days, which is almost entirely consist of reprinting politicians. Tweets >> Exactly. I guess it's made life easier for for them all people reporters sitting in the White House waiting for a press conference. They're not >> doing well. There are many reporters left. Where do you see in your consulting work your academic work? Where do you see a I being used most effectively in organizations right now? And where do you think that's gonna be three years from now? >> Well, I mean, the general category of activity of use case is the sort of someone's calling boring I. It's data integration. One thing that's being discussed a lot of this conference, it's connecting your invoices to your contracts to see Did we actually get the stuff that we contracted for its ah, doing a little bit better job of identifying fraud and doing it faster so all of those things are quite feasible. They're just not that exciting. What we're not seeing are curing cancer, creating fully autonomous vehicles. You know, the really aggressive moonshots that we've been trying for a while just haven't succeeded at what if we kind of expand a I is gonna The rumor, trawlers. New cool stuff that's coming out. So considering all these new checks with detective Aye, aye, Blockchain new security approaches. When do you think that machines will be able to make better diagnoses than doctors? Well, I think you know, in a very narrow sense in some cases, that could do it now. But the thing is, first of all, take a radiologist, which is one of the doctors I think most at risk from this because they don't typically meet with patients and they spend a lot of time looking at images. It turns out that the lab experiments that say you know, these air better than human radiologist say I tend to be very narrow, and what one lab does is different from another lab. So it's just it's gonna take a very long time to make it into, you know, production deployment in the physician's office. We'll probably have to have some regulatory approval of it. You know, the lab research is great. It's just getting it into day to day. Reality is the problem. Okay, So staying in this context of digital a sort of umbrella topic, do you think large retail stores roll largely disappeared? >> Uh, >> some sectors more than others for things that you don't need toe, touch and feel, And soon before you're to them. Certainly even that obviously, it's happening more and more on commerce. What people are saying will disappear. Next is the human at the point of sale. And we've been talking about that for a while. In In grocery, Not so not achieve so much yet in the U. S. Amazon Go is a really interesting experiment where every time I go in there, I tried to shoplift. I took a while, and now they have 12 stores. It's not huge yet, but I think if you're in one of those jobs that a substantial chunk of it is automata ble, then you really want to start looking around thinking, What else can I do to add value to these machines? Do you think traditional banks will lose control of the payment system? Uh, No, I don't because the Finn techs that you see thus far keep getting bought by traditional bank. So my guess is that people will want that certainty. And you know, the funny thing about Blockchain way say in principle it's more secure because it's spread across a lot of different ledgers. But people keep hacking into Bitcoin, so it makes you wonder. I think Blockchain is gonna take longer than way thought as well. So, you know, in my latest book, which is called the Aye Aye Advantage, I start out talking by about Tamara's Law, This guy Roy Amara, who was a futurist, not nearly as well known as Moore's Law. But it said, You know, for every new technology, we tend to overestimate its impact in the short run and underestimated Long, long Ryan. And so I think a I will end up doing great things. We may have sort of tuned it out of the time. It actually happens way finally have autonomous vehicles. We've been talking about it for 50 years. Last one. So one of the Democratic candidates of the 75 Democratic ended last night mentioned the chief manufacturing officer Well, do you see that automation will actually swing the pendulum and bring back manufacturing to the U. S. I think it could if we were really aggressive about using digital technologies in manufacturing, doing three D manufacturing doing, um, digital twins of every device and so on. But we are not being as aggressive as we ought to be. And manufacturing companies have been kind of slow. And, um, I think somewhat delinquent and embracing these things. So they're gonna think, lose the ability to compete. We have to really go at it in a big way to >> bring it. Bring it all back. Just we've got an election coming up. There are a lot of concern following the last election about the potential of a I chatbots Twitter chat bots, deep fakes, technologies that obscure or alter reality. Are you worried about what's coming in the next year? And that that >> could never happen? Paul. We could never see anything deep fakes I'm quite worried about. We don't seem. I know there's some organizations working on how we would certify, you know, an image as being really But we're not there yet. My guess is, certainly by the time the election happens, we're going to have all sorts of political candidates saying things that they never really said through deep fakes and image manipulation. Scary? What do you think about the call to break up? Big check. What's your position on that? I think that sell a self inflicted wound. You know, we just saw, for example, that the automobile manufacturers decided to get together. Even though the federal government isn't asking for better mileage, they said, We'll do it. We'll work with you in union of states that are more advanced. If Big Tak had said, we're gonna work together to develop standards of ethical behavior and privacy and data and so on, they could've prevented some of this unless they change their attitude really quickly. I've seen some of it sales force. People are talking about the need for data standard data protection standards, I must say, change quickly. I think they're going to get legislation imposed and maybe get broken up. It's gonna take awhile. Depends on the next administration, but they're not being smart >> about it. You look it. I'm sure you see a lot of demos of advanced A I type technology over the last year, what is really impressed you. >> You know, I think the biggest advances have clearly been in image recognition looking the other day. It's a big problem with that is you need a lot of label data. It's one of the reasons why Google was able to identify cat photos on the Internet is we had a lot of labeled cat images and the Image net open source database. But the ability to start generating images to do synthetic label data, I think, could really make a big difference in how rapidly image recognition works. >> What even synthetic? I'm sorry >> where we would actually create. We wouldn't have to have somebody go around taking pictures of cats. We create a bunch of different cat photos, label them as cat photos have variations in them, you know, unless we have a lot of variation and images. That's one of the reasons why we can't use autonomous vehicles yet because images differ in the rain and the snow. And so we're gonna have to have synthetic snow synthetic rain to identify those images. So, you know, the GPU chip still realizes that's a pedestrian walking across there, even though it's kind of buzzed up right now. Just a little bit of various ation. The image can throw off the recognition altogether. Tom. Hey, thanks so much for coming in. The Cube is great to see you. We gotta go play Catch. You're welcome. Keep right. Everybody will be back from M I t CDO I Q In Cambridge, Massachusetts. Stable, aren't they? Paul Gillis, You're watching the Cube?

>> Live, from Washington DC it's the Cube. Covering AWS Public-Sector Summit. Brought to you by Amazon Web Services. >> Welcome back everyone to AWS public sector here in Washington DC, the Cube's live coverage, two-day coverage, I'm your host, Rebecca Knight. Co-hosting alongside John Ferrier, and we are welcoming back to the Cube, 13 time Cube alum, Sanjay Poonen in the COO of VM-Ware. Thank you so much for coming back on the show >> VIP status, by the way. >> Yes, absolutely. >> Thank you, Rebecca. >> That's definitely VIP status. >> Yes we have a red carpet rolled out >> Delighted to be here. I've lost track of the number of times, but when you're having fun it's good. >> Exactly, so tell us a little bit about what is VM-ware's role here in the public sector, what are you doing here at this conference? >> VM-ware and AWS announced a partnership in October 2016, and it really was the coming together of the best in the public cloud, with the best in the private cloud for what we describe as the hybrid cloud opportunity. And the past two and a half years, coming up on three years pretty soon, has been incredibly exciting. We started off with some of the key industries that we felt, for us, the public sector is among our top three industries. But financial services, telco, public sector, healthcare, manufacturing, all the key industries, technology, we're looking for ways by which they could take their applications into the cloud without having to re-factor and re-platform those applications. That's a big deal because it's wasted of work, if you can lift and shift and then innovate. And that's the value we brought to the public sector and some of our earliest customers, were customers in the public sector like MIT, schools, most of the regulated industries. In the on premise world, we're very strong in almost every, civilian, military, the legislative advance, the judicial advance, the federal agency, all of them use us. Millions and millions of work loads. The question really is how is they think about modernization can they get the best manifesto of the public cloud while leveraging their VM footprint >> So some would say that modernization may not include the original VM-ware vision because a lot of the governments are tryna replace and equated old systems like coldblow, mainframes, whatever, but you guys have been around dominated the operating side of IT for a while so you're kind of seeing the first wave of virtualization, the first wave of modernization but there's some cloud native people they might see that as like "Whoa, is that old school?" So what is particular perspective on that innovation dynamic? Because a lot of the public sector investors are awakening now going "Oh my god, I can move fast with Cloud" So Cloud is bringing on a new set of disruptors in IT, you guys have already been there on the first wave of disruption, so how do balance that kind of presence, >> Yeah >> But also disruption, you might be viewed that way, I'm not sure. >> Yeah, I would say, actually, that the first wave of our free reign modernization started with this device before Cloud. Okay, in 2007 when the iPhone came out there was a significant move by big parts of the public sector to move away from blackberry, which is kind of what they use for the decade prior to that. And when we brought AirWatch, we began to see some of the earliest industries that were adopting the public sector. Many of the agencies started to look at us now, so we actually began our journey into this modernization discussion in the workplace transformation, part of the discussion before we got to Cloud. So we were prepared for some of what that looked like, for example, census 2020 that entire for all the workers something is being done with mobile devices now as opposed to paper or surveys that were done maybe 10, 20 years ago, and all powered and secured by Workspace ONE. Now, when it got to Cloud we were prepared for that because, you know, we knew a little bit of what that meant and mobile and Cloud were some of the two top discussion items that people were talking about as modernization at first under the banner of digital transformation. We had to begin to showcase to a customer that moving an application, now we're talking clients server three tier architectures as opposed to a cobalt mainframe that's really where we have but the bulk of the 886 architecture that's from virtualized VM-ware if you could take them now to the cloud and then use some of the services that these guys are building whether it's data based, whether it's artificially intelligence, machine learning, if you waste all your time in re-platforming and re-marketing an application it's that much less time you have to do some of those innovative things. And the lift and shift process once we had this sort of highway into the Cloud, so to speak, which is what VM-ware Cloud and AWS does, it became so apparent, so we are that process, we had to then work what we can talk about Fred RAM certification all of these things that I'm (inaudible) >> In AirWatch was really a critical acquisition, turns out a boom for you guys with public sector. >> Oh yeah. >> You guys had the iPhone was a driver not so much the blocking and tackling of virtualizing data centers and IT, which you had a presence in, but it was the mobility piece. >> Well since 1998, 99, since the company was founded, the public sector business of VM-ware has been very important, I mean I would say, like I said it's the top three and so, we have tremendous amount of relationships some of our biggest deals. Eight figures plus deals where done with some of the biggest and many of our partners here. >> So it's a large business. >> Large business. >> Did you break that in the numbers? >> We did but we have always said it so a top three, we have always talked about in our earnings calls, some big, large customer examples like US Army, and then , which is also a sort of representative of this community here. Safe, local education. All the universities are using us. So the footprint of VW-ware premise was well documented, well understood, lots of spent going on there. What we didn't have an access to, we had some virtual desktops, VDIs. This mobile aperture gave us a whole new banner of spending. But then the Cloud aperture is kind of taking this to a whole new level. And quite frankly if you look at the commercial sector, the overall IT spent in the world is about one trillion we track and about 150 to 200 billion of that, 15 to 20 % is being spent on the Cloud. And the public sector, governs sector is starting to track that, they are probably a little bit lagging in certain areas to commercial. But that 15 to 20 % is only going to get 30 or 40 % in the next five years. VM-ware has been one the top infrastructure companies, we are looking at our move, a bigger part of the wall of share that we gain as people move their investment to the Cloud. >> When you are thinking about the different clients and customers that you're working with, the Sled groups and then the corporate customers, what-how different are they and how, what's on the public sector's mind versus your corporate clients? And how do you manage the relationships differently? >> Yeah, we have sort of segment them at VM-ware and many companies have done the same thing into three pockets. One is who we describe as the federal public sector customers that are civilian, military and we mirror that in almost every country so Theresa here, for example, runs AWS and we have a similar type of work structure to hear in each of the key regions. The second big segment is healthcare, many of the healthcare organizations are regulated there's similar characteristics and the third is SLED, state local education. And those three pockets are very similar patterns in the way in which they buy, their CIOs are similar and they also have often very similar security requirements. So the highest maybe something like a FED and FedRAMP and we some specialized needs that they have for certain certifications on the device or certifications on the Cloud and we have to comply with all of those. But then as you get to the ones that are in the state local maybe they don't as many and higher certifications but what it's helped is to basically work with partners with a very similar across this, and the proposition on the initial transformation is really modernization of either the data center and their applications or modernization of the device. And VM-ware is very uniquely provisioned to help on both those fronts. >> And security is really top of mind >> Absolutely >> I mean we've heard on the main stage and we know how big a threat these cyber threats face. These Cyber threats pose. >> Absolutely, and if you think about aspects of security. Security has multiple aspects of where you can think of them as control points. The network, the end-point, the cloud, identity and lots of event management that is collected. These are the five biggest markets of security. In each of those areas VM-ware is starting to play more. For example, network, you know, five, six years ago people didn't think of VM-ware in that area but with NSX our leading software define networking area, we have become the lead on that segment and about half of our use cases are security related for a use case called micro-segmentation. So the government can basically segment out a set of their apps and through software, think of these as on-off switches almost like light switches only allow certain apps to access certain parts of the data center. That's very easily done through NSX. Workspace ONE, the endpoint can now be extremely secure and provide all the levels of security that Blackware provided in their proprietary devices but now on any device. So we've been systematically looking at each of these areas I would estimate about 15 to 20 % of VM-ware revenue is security related use cases and public sector this is a very, very key place where we get grilled on and we have to satisfy their level of requirements for security. >> Sanjay, what are you doing here? I know you said you are speaking at a panel, Fireside chat, what's your agenda of the week? What's the story? What some of the key talking points for VM-ware? >> VM-ware is one of the top sponsors here, I don't know whatever is global or platinum or whatever the highest level is, you will see our name's there. And largely what we did when we announced this partnership was, you know, Andy and I were classmates at school. We wanted to build a very close partnership at their big events, so you will see us at all the major summits. VM-ware is a top sponsor, and you'll see them also at >> Doubling down on the relationships. >> Yep, we're doubling down. And they're doing the same at VM-world, so we said "Listen" and I think I talked about this in one of your previous shows. If you can mingle, VM-ware has collectively about 100,000 people that come to all the VM-ware events across the world and maybe about half a million to people who watch those events online. Amazon has probably twice that number. But if we can mingle each other audiences because they are coming off into both shows and we, the best showing up at AWS summits and we'll give them lots of access to VM-world. >> Ups* >> (laughs) There we go. >> Operations >> Hey, that's got a ring to it. I like it >> That's exactly the vision. So we, first of all, VM-ware is a big presence and the acquisition we've done, also, like Cloud helped also has a big presence, so that's one. Number two, we try as often as possible to have either a key note or some kind of Provence, I've had a good friendship with Theresa. She invited me to speak, I think there's an event with their top five hundred customers, sort of a key note inside that. And I do that a little later this afternoon. And it's also a tremendous opportunity, I think they have 13 or 15,000 attendees here to meet some of our top customers, so those are the three things that I'm doing over the course of the next day and a half. >> You got the CIA deal 2013, what that has done, in gestation period since then, a lot of other folks in the DC circuit here, public sector, government, agencies, they are all going "Hmm, Amazon has got the right formula" so Theresa put the formula together, people are adopting it, you guys do the strategic deal with AWS with your AA gown on, as a student of the game if you will in tech, Sanjay, which you are, knowing what you know now at VM-ware what's your perspective on this? Because you got a big tail wind with Cloud, you get clarity in what you guys do, in what AWS does, you also have multi Cloud with other Clouds, I mean you got NSX with a nice product, you got multi Cloud built-in hybrid, I mean, pretty good at spot for VM-ware for public sector. What's your perspective on this? >> Yeah, two parts to your question. First off, tremendous respect for Andy. I was describing before I go out on the show with both of you, when we were in school, I wouldn't have put him, in 1987 when we graduated, as the person who would of been the pied piper of this public Cloud revolution. But kudos to him, Theresa a fantastic executive and I think that, you know, 2013 CIA deal put them on an incredible place to be, a front runner in this and many other deals they've done similarly. VM-ware, we saw over the last, you know, 3, 4, 5 years is a significant rise of Amazon in our accounts. Customers were asking us "Why can't we get the best of both worlds? Why does it have to be on premise runs and VM-ware and public lines and I've got to portent and refactor and re platform my applications?" So our customers drove a us together and what we've sort to do in our relationship with Amazon is we meet on a quarterly basis, we review feature and function, product road map, we're aggressive, with our sales teams are trying to pursue opportunities together. And that's really helped us, you know, that's part of the reason I'm here, so, the more that we can do together to satisfy customers, customers like seeing big partners come together, even if, it feels a little bit like Berlin wall moment, right? You remember 1987? You had the US and Soviet Union and people were surprised by that. I that that the general consensus was complete surprise in 2016 when we announced the project with Amazon. But with every move we made like for instance, recently we announced the FedRAM status, one of our biggest 8 figure deals we had announced in our queue for was with a major customer that's in this segment, actually. Our public sector SLED and the more that we can do this, I think there's a lot of future ahead of us. >> Berlin is interesting, you know, tearing down that wall that was a moment that came down and the government, the theme that we are hearing over and over again is red tape. Lag with data it hurts application work loads so fast data, make it available, cut the read tape out of procurement, I mean, basically, 1980s, 1990s, procurement rules don't apply to how people consume and deploy technology today. >> Yeah, absolutely. >> Tear down that red tape. >> I think you got that right. I think the governments mandate to go Cloud first in the, you know, last several administrations was absolutely key and certain elementary work loads like websites, I mean why, so if it's a public website that's holding public information, I mean, of course, you've got to worry about security but the data public anyway. Okay, so, what's going to get hacked? I mean, why don't you move all websites that are web content, so some of those early work loads are moved over very easy. I would call it so, the 1-O-1 of posting. Why would you want to have server just to host a website? But once that's done the more mission critical applications, Windows work loads, Oracle's sequel service databases, Virtual desktops, now you are starting to see and I think eventually some of the more mission critical apps like SAP or Oracle apps, I think you see them also now with a lot of customers in both public sectors and commercial- >> Military DOD tactical edges, >> Absolutely. >> The military lives are on the line, it's not a video game, lag actually will kill people. So you want to have that application peaked. >> Exactly. >> With the right architect >> One of the things that are so inspiring about being here at the public sector summit is that we are seeing all these used cases, of using the Cloud for good to solve pressing environmental challenges, health challenges, social challenges, what are you seeing, what is VM-ware working on that is, that is particularly inspiring to you? >> I am glad you asked that Rebecca. I would say that's one the things and Amazon shares a similar value where we think that, you know, technology companies have to think beyond themselves and be a force for good. I think that one of the first times at any major conference, last year we had the Nobel Peace Prize winner who's changed the world, Malala, come and speak and I think everyone who comes to major tech conferences, and we had one of the biggest conferences, was, I mean, we had grown big men, 6 foot tall crying at the end of that. And we had a number of customers that we loved to be able to talk about there stories, Make A wish is an example of an organization that, you know, if someone's with a terminal disease and they want to have some wish that they could wish for, all the infrastructure runs in VM-ware and we can help them serve that audience better, we have a number of charitable organization, Red Cross was on (unintelligible), so we, a big part of pad mind the attire of companies, kind of charter in our EPICC values has been people of integrity, people of work with the customers and the community. Our values EPICC stands for execution, passion, integrity customer and community. And that last C I think is very important, cause, you know, we live in a world and the more important thing is not necessarily how much money you make but what a force you can be for changing people's life. That lasts forever. You can't take your money into the grave but the more you can have on people, impact on people's lives, I mean, John, I am delighted to see your daughter. >> Yeah. >> I mean that generation continues >> Well, it's community right? >> And you're passing on those values onto the next generation or helping people that's the bigger story of life and that gets us equally excited as innovation. >> Communities can now be instrumented via digital technologies, so your faster time to find truth, people who have communities were very active, the data is there, it's all in the data and so you can see the impact >> You know, I think that's absolutely key. So John, I would agree with you and I think you as, you know, you talk to companies that's an important question to ask them. Because we are all in this together. There is no whether it's competitors or what's not, we can all serve the greater community, here for good and make this world a better place, you know there is a lot of what we do that helps the world run better, that's good, infrastructure helps us run better, but helping the world be a better place, it takes both individual and collective will. >> Well one of the talent gaps is not just computer programming and tech people it's architects for the new society that needs help and these key policy questions like governance and responsibilities, you're seeing YouTube and Facebook and our neck of the woods responsible for all this impact and they don't really kind of, there's no oversight. (laughs) >> Well, listen I'm not going to get into the public debate about, you know, privacy and governance and so on. I would say that one thing that, you know, we're also really excited to kind of give back to the community in terms of education. One of the things that is very powerful to VM-ware is our user groups. We call them V-mugs, VM-ware user groups and there's collectively about 150, 200000 of them and it's amazing when you spend time with them, they are really, really, they are members of the community really because they're customers and partners and they dedicate their time to educating others and the more that we can use online forums, I love the way in which you're using your online platform with the AI and other techniques. I think artificial intelligence becomes the ground equalizer, give access to everybody. >> Access to the voice is access to the data but right now as you pointed out we need a society that's going to have shared values and I think that's like where the good is coming from and it's easy to get on the bad tech band wagon which everyone is on right now but there are examples of tech for good, you mentioned- >> But when you say shared values, is that you, I mean is that possible? >> Well, I think there is, there is an awakening going on now from Silicon Valley where I live and here in DC which it's, it's in my face here because people as tech savvy here as they are in say Silicon Valley, no offense, but those people aren't as tech savvy here as they are in Silicon Valley, they don't go deep on the impact of tech but they see the results of bad tech. So I don't see a lot of a vandalizing going on outside of certain areas around tech for good. So I think there's a lot of great examples, human trafficking, you're seeing tech for hiring, new generations onboard training, skills gap, so efficiencies in healthcare, there is so many areas that tech could be used for good and if people were educated on focusing on that and not the bad, I mean bad's got to eradicated, certainly, I'm not for bad things but maybe there's a lot more good, the good pile is much bigger than the bad pile in tech, so, when I say shared values is recognition of that which is let's get on the same page, there's bad and there's good, have that debate and then apply the tech. >> Yeah, interesting. It's a galvanizing force. >> Well, it's just like any invention whether it's the printing press or the use of fire, I mean, there is good use of it and there's bad use of it. And we got to to find ways by which technology while this debate is going on as to as some of these social media platforms, my fundamental belief is that technology is going to transform society, the reason I came to the United States as an immigrant was to study computer science and I felt like the United States had, you know, when I came to this college I hade never heard of called Dartmouth College in Haven New Hampshire, was very fortunate to have a scholarship to go there but that's because I wanted to study computer science and I felt like computer science could change a lot of the way at which, you know, at that time, I was just trying to program and learn how to, you know, create algorithms but if you look at what transformed every aspect whether it's the mobile device which is really a computer in your pocket or Cloud computing which is kind of bringing the super computer into the Cloud. >> (inaudible) >> I think it's tremendous what we can do and we have to constantly find ways by which artificial intelligence and these forces of, you know, the next part of general mobile, Cloud computing can be used for greater good. >> Did you go to scholarship on full bode with basketball? (all laugh) >> Man, we got the Warriors with two ball games. >> So you are a big Warriors and for the folks that don't know Sanjay, we always used to talk about every time Warriors looking good to stay alive but not looking good >> So sad to see. I mean it's sort of, the last game I was watching last night, it was, it was sad, it was, of course, it was a win but also a loss to see KD go down that way was just absolutely tearful, yeah, but, you know, we have one more game. >> It's going to be hard >> It's going to be hard to, you know, kind of beat the crowd and the crowd is really loud at Oracle and get one more game and then, yeah, I think it'll get to game 7, we'll what happens but it's just great to their heart. >> I'm from Boston so I'm kind of over Golden state but I am sure everyone is over Boston and our red socks and our throw-ins and our pads >> Duck tour has only been 15 months? >> I know exactly! Exactly! We're still- >> There will be a Celtic warriors game >> That would have been so good >> That would have been so good like the Lakers (inaudible) >> It was more recent than that. It was the pads victory, so yeah >> Okay >> Yeah, anyway. Just saying, just saying. Sanjay, thank you so much for coming back on The cube, we look forward to your 14th visit on the show. >> Thank you, Rebecca. Thank you, John. >> I'm Rebecca Knight for John Ferrier, stay tuned for more AWS public sector summit here in Washington DC. (Upbeat Music)

(energetic, playful techno music) [Voiceover] - Live from Las Vegas, it's the CUBE covering AWS re:Invent 2018. Brought to you by Amazon web Services, Intel, and their ecosystem partners. >> We are live here at the Sands Expo, one of eight venues that are actually here for AWS re:Invent this week as we continue our three day coverage here with you Tuesday, Wednesday, and Thursday as well, live from Las Vegas here on the CUBE. Along with Justin Warren, I'm John Walls, and we're now joined by Phil Tee, who is the CEO and co-founder of Moodsoft. Phil, good to see you this afternoon. >> Great to be with you, thank you for inviting me along. >> You bet, nice to have you. In fact, I'm going to be the only guy without a charming accent on this set as a matter of fact. A UK and an Aussie here. Your world's data, right? And it kind of reminds me of the old movie Jaws when Robert says we're going to need a bigger boat, right? AI ops, is that your bigger boat? Is that how you're handling this world of data? >> I think that's exactly spot on and one of the things we observe at Moodsoft with our customers is just this crazy complexity that they have to deal with. I mean, we cover everything from large financials, telephone companies, e-commerce businesses, and the drive to adopt agile and cloud and software defined in the the enterprise has driven complexity to the point where the poor old human brain is just out of luck, right? The unaided "I'll figure it out by myself" approach, dead in the water, and you've got to use this artificial intelligence approach precisely as your "bigger boat" to go catch that shark. >> Right. So tell us, there's a lot of hype around AI, and machine learning, and all of these different buzzwords are getting thrown around. Dial us in a little bit. Explain what you mean by AI in the context you're talking about things with Moodsoft. >> So, I think that's very perceptive. There's a tweet going around at the moment which describes the difference between machine learning and AI as, if it's written in Python it's probably machine learning, if it's on a Powerpoint deck it's probably AI. Which is kind of funny, but to the point. And there is a ton of hype going around artificial intelligence. There are some purists who claim there is no such thing as AI and everything we talk about today is really machine learning or data driven algorithms. And there's some truth in that. Really, what we mean by AI is the full panoply of both feature detection, you know, looking for patterns that are not obvious to the human eye all the way through to deep learning, neural nets, convolutional neural nets, where you are training a system to recognize features of the data as representative of something underlying that you're hunting for. So in the case of AI ops it's looking for the cause of, or looking for the presence of, a potential service-impacting outage in the data that we monitor, in the events. But one thing it's not going to do is, it's not going to unplug itself from the internet and come and kill you anytime soon. It's really quite benign and very useful to our customers with what they deal with. >> So, to that point, because you have so much data, and it seems like, I hate to say, most of it isn't needed or most of it isn't of value, but a lot of it isn't, if not most. How do you then decern, how do you assess value and assign value to what really is important and then, put it to use today, when you're getting so much more information than you were even a year ago? >> So just to put a little bit of context on the amount of data, way back before the cloud and virtualization, a typical enterprise, a high event rate would have been 100, 200, events a second. Nowadays, in an average customer of ours, you add a zero or two to that rate, maybe even three. And it's one of the reasons why the legacy systems really struggle with that data. So, job one is, if you accept, and I certainly do, that most of that data is junk. Most of it is inconsequential. You've got to have an algorithmic way of getting rid of that. You know, the old-fashioned way was creating lists of "ignore it because it's a certain severity", "ignore it because it comes from this list of hosts", you know, the whole listing approach. What we do is we use information science. So we can measure the semantic content, and the informational content, of an event to work out whether it's telling us something of import. And we use that technique with great effectiveness to eliminate as much as ninety, ninety-five, percent of the inbound data as effectively affecting nothing. So that narrows the data lake, you feel, down to a point where we can process it in real time through much more computer-intensive AI algorithms to kind of get that high-quality indication of an instance or a potential instance. >> A lot of machine learning and AI is based on learning from history, so, "we've seen all this stuff before and we know what that means", or, even encouraging the machines to go and look at the historical data and then pull out the details as you said. Even things that a human might miss, you'll look at that data and then learn new things. How does that work when we're doing all of this innovation? When there's all of this change and novelty coming in, how does the AI system cope with that kind of environment? >> So, you have to have a dual approach. I mean, I guess everyone's familiar with Mikolas Nassim Taleb's book, The Black Swans. He was trying to explain why it is that you can get a bunch of Nobel Prize winners in a room to design a hedge fund and it can still go bankrupt in the blink of and eye, like the long-term capital management. And the truth of the matter is, yes, an awful lot of the techniques that are supervised and based upon a training set are vulnerable to the "unknown unknowns" to misquote Donald Rumsfeld, and that's why we use a combination of unsupervised feature detection and supervised learning. The unsupervised feature detection just knows something as an unusual, highly correlated, pattern or feature in the data and needs no prior understanding of what's going on. Now, interestingly, there are some hybrid techniques now. You may have heard of something called transfer learning, which is the idea that you partially train a neural net on some kind of standard corpus. It'd be like the stuff that you already know and adapting that sort of partially trained net to something that is literally very, very, very adapted to the system that it's monitoring, it does that very quickly rather than having to wait for a certain critical amount of data before the net is converged. And so those sort of techniques, which we also experiment with at Moodsoft, I think are going to be interesting directions for us in the future with our platform, but there's maybe a hundred PhDs a week given out in AI and machine learning these days. It's definitely getting a lot of focus and there's a ton of innovation that's coming down the line. One thing that we're particularly committed to is shortening the distance between when something's invented and when we can get it into our customer's hands. >> There's usually quite a lag, historically, it's about ten years before someone discovers something and then it actually makes it into the business world so if we could shorten that cycle that would be quite useful. >> We know an academic called professor Maggie Bowden who's just getting ready to retire and she was one of the original authors of the neural net papers in the 1960's, so that kind of gives you an idea of the lag, it could be many, many, decades and it's a shame because the truth of the matter is the pressure on all the people coming to a show like this that want to benefit from the public cloud, new ways of thinking about the application development toolchain, they don't have time to wait around for that innovation to come to them. We've got to drive it a lot faster and, certainly, we view that as one of our missions at Moodsoft, as being passionately involved and sort of shortening that gap between innovation and a production implementation as something really cool. >> So what have you seen at the show so far that you think you want to take to your customers and say, "oh, actually, this is happening and you need to get on to this now"? >> One thing I've observed here is, I guess if we would've been here two years ago, nobody was talking about AI ops. I mean essentially the entirety of how people looked at the cloud was "same old stuff, just lives somewhere different, we can use all of the old techniques". You walk around here, there's a bunch of startups, more established companies, recognizing that a new approach is necessary and my sense of it is that this market which, I mean, let's be honest, we were pretty lonely in it two or three years ago, is starting to feel like it's a little more populated and that's goodness, we're very happy about that, so that is definitely a take away. You know, to go to customers and say "this is no longer bleeding edge, it's simply leading edge". >> Not just a gap in the market, there is actually a market in that gap. >> You're the bigger boat. >> Well, we hope so. >> Phil, thanks for being with us. We appreciate your time here on the CUBE and once again, have a great show and we do thank you for your time, sir. >> Thank you very much indeed. Great talking to you both. >> Phil Tee from Moodsoft joining us here on the CUBE. We're at AWS re:Invent and we're at the Sands, and we're in Las Vegas. (energetic, playful techno music)

(upbeat techno music) >> Live from Las Vegas, it's theCUBE covering VMworld2018 brought to by VMware and it's ecosystem partners. >> Welcome back to theCUBE, I am Lisa Martin with Dave Vellante, John Furrier, Stu Miniman at the end of day two of our continuing coverage, guys, of VMworld 2018, huge event, 25+ thousand people here, 100,000+ expected to be engaging with the on demand and the live experiences. Our biggest show, right? 94 interviews over the next three days, two of them down. Let's go, John, to you, some of the takeaways from today from the guests we've had on both sets, what are some of the things that stick out in your mind? Really interesting? >> Well we had Michael Dell on so that's always a great interview, he comes on every year and he's very candid and this year he added a little bit more color commentary. That was great, it was one of my highlights. I thought the keynote that Sanjay Poonen did, he had an amazing guest, Nobel Peace Prize winner, the youngest ever and her story was so inspirational and I think that sets a tone for VMware putting a cultural stake in the ground around tech for good. We've done a lot of AI for good with Intel and there's always been these initiatives but I think there's now a cultural validation that people generally want to work for and buy from companies that are mission driven and mission driven is now part of it and people can be judged on that front so it's good to see VMware get some leadership there and put the stake in the ground. I thought that was the big news today, at least from my standpoint. The rest were like point product announcements. Sanjay Poonen went into great detail on that. Pat Gelsinger also came on, another great highlight and again we didn't have a lot of time, he was running a bit late, he had a tight schedule but it shows how smart he is, he's really super technical and he actually understands at a root level what's going on so he's actually a great CEO right now, the financial performance is there and he's also very technical, and I think it encapsulates all of it that Dell Technologies, under Michael Dell, he's making so much more money, he's going to be richer and richer. (laughing) He took an entrepreneurial bet, it wasn't hurting at the time but Dell was kind of boring, Dave. I wouldn't call it like an innovative company at the time when they were public using the 90 day shot clock. They had some things going on but they were a hardware company, a supplier to IT footprints-- >> Whoa, whoa, they were 60 billion dollars in revenue and a 20 billion dollar market gap, so something was broken. >> Well I mean it was working numbers wise but he seemed-- >> No that's opposite, a 20 billion dollar value on a 60 billion of revenue, is you're sort of a failure, so anyway, at the time. >> Market conditions aside, right, at the time, he seemed like he wanted to do something entrepreneurial and the takeaway from my interview with him, our interview with him, was he took an entrepreneurial bet put his own cash on the table and it's paying off, that horse is coming in. He's going to make more money on this transaction and takes EMC out of the game, folds it into the operations, it really is going to be, I think, a financial success story if market conditions continue to be the way they are. Michael Dell will go down as a great financial maneuver and he'll be in the top epsilon of deals. >> The story people might forget is that Carl Icahn tried to take the company away from him. Michael Dell beat the great Carl Icahn, which doesn't happen often. Why did Carl Icahn want to take Dell private? Because he knew he could make a boatload of money off of it and Michael Dell said, "No way you're taking my company. "I'm going to do my thing and change the industry." >> He's going to have 90% voting control with Silver Lake Partners when the deal is all said and done and taking a company private and the executing the financial engineering plus execution is really hard to do, look at Elon Musk in the news today. He's trying to take Tesla private, he got his butt handed to him. Now he's saying, "No, we're going to stay public." (laughing) >> Wait, guys, are you saying Michael, after he gets all this money from VMware that it will help them go public, he's not going to sell off VMware or get rid of that, right? >> Well that's a joke that he would sell VMware, I mean-- >> Unless the cash is going to be good? >> No, he won't do it. >> I don't think it'll happen. I mean, maybe some day he sells some of the portion of it but you're not going to give up control of it, why would he? It's throwing off so much cash. He's got Silver Lake as a private equity company, they understand this inside and out. I mean this transaction goes down in history as one of the greatest trades ever. >> Yeah. >> Let me ask you guys a question, because I think is one we brought up in the interview because at that time, the pundits, we were actually right on this deal. We were very bullish on it, and we actually analyzed it. You guys did a good job at Wikibon and we on theCUBE pretty much laid out what happened. He executed it, we put the risks out there, but at the time people were saying, "This is a bad deal, EMC." The current state of IT at that time looked like it was dismal but the market forces that changed were cloud, and so what were those sideways impact points that no one understood, that really helped him lift this up? What's your thoughts, Dave, on that? >> First of all the desktop business did way better than anybody thought it would, which is amazing and actually EMC did pretty poorly for a while and so that was kind of a head fake. And then as we knew, VMware crushed it and crushed it even more than anybody expected so that threw off so much cash they were able to deliver, they did Pivotal, they did a Pivotal IPO, sold some software assets. I mean basically Michael Dell and his team did everything they said they said they were going to do and it's worked out, as he said today, even better than they possibly thought. >> Well and the commentary I'd give here is when the acquisition of EMC by Dell happened, the big turn we had is the impact of cloud and we said, "Well, okay they've got VMware over there "and they've got Pivotal but Dell's "just going to be a boring infrastructure company "with server, network and storage." The message that we heard at Dell World and maturing even more here is that this portfolio of families. Yes, VMware's a big piece of it, NSX and the networking, but Pivotal with PKS, all of those tie in to what's Dell's selling. Every time they're selling VxRail, you know that has a big VMware piece. They do the networking piece that extends across multi clouds, so Dell has a much better multi cloud story than I expected them to have when they bought EMC. >> But now, VMware hides a lot of warts. >> Yeah. >> Right? >> Absolutely. >> Let's be honest about that. >> What are they? >> Okay. I still think the client business is exposed. I mean as great as it is, you got to gain share in that business if you want to keep winning, number one. Number two is, the big question I have is can the core of Dell EMC continue to innovate or will it just make incremental improvements, have to do acquisitions to do innovation, inorganic acquisitions, and end up with more stovepipes? That's always been, Stu used to work there, that was always EMC's biggest challenge. Jeff Clark came in and said, "Okay, we're going to rationalize the portfolio." That has backlash as customer's say, "Well wait a minute, does that mean "you're not going to support my products?" No, no, we're going to support your products. So they've got to continue to innovate. As I say, VMware, because of how much cash it throws off, it's 50% of the company's profits, hides a lot of those exposures. >> And if VMware takes a turn, if market conditions change, the debt looming is exposed so again, the game's not over for Dell. He can see the finish line, but. (laughing) >> Buy low, sell high, guess who's selling right now? >> So a lot of financial impact, continued innovation but at the end of the day, guys, this is all about impacting customer's businesses. Not just from we've got to enable them to be successful in this multi cloud era, that's the norm today. They need to facilitate successful digital transformations, business outcomes, but they also have VMware, Dell EMC, Dell Technologies, great power to help customer's transform their cultures. I'd love to get perspective from you guys because I love the voice to the customer, what are some of your favorite Dell EMC, VMware, partner, customer stories that you've heard the last couple days that really articulate the value of this financial successful company that they're achieving? >> Well the first thing I'll say before we get to the customer stories is on your point about what VMware's doing, is they're a technology, Robin Matlock, the CMO was on theCUBE talking about they're a technology company, they have the hands on labs, they're a very geeky audience, which we love. But they have to get leadership on the product side, they got to maintain the R and D, they got to have best in class technical products that actually are relevant. You look at companies like Tintri that went bankrupt, great technology, cul-de-sac market. There's no market there, the world's going cloud. So to me VMware has to start pumping out really strong products and technologies that the customer's are going to buy, right? (laughing) >> In conjunction with the customer to help co-develop what the customer's need. >> So I was talking to a customer and he said, "Look, I'm 10 years behind where the cloud guys are "with Amazon so all I want is VMware "to make my life easier, continue to cut my costs. "I like the way I'm operating, "I just get constant pressure to cut cost, "so if they keep doing that, I'm going to stay with them "for a long, long time." Pete Townsend said it best, companies like VMware, Dell EMC, they move at the speed of the CIO and as long as they can move at the speed of the CIO, I've said this a million times, the rich get richer and it's why competent management that led by founders like Larry Ellison, like Michael Dell, continue to do well in this industry. >> And Andy Jassy technically, I would say, a found of AWS because he started it. >> Absolutely. >> A key, the other thing I would also say from a customer, we hear a lot of customer, I won't name names because a lot of our data's in hallway conversations and at night when we go out and get the real stories. On theCUBE it's mostly, oh we've been very successful at VM, we use virtualization, blah, blah, blah and it's an IT story, but the customers in the hallways that are off the record are saying essentially this, I'm paraphrasing, look it, we have an operation to run. I love this cloud stuff and I'd love to just blink my fingers and be in the cloud and just get rid of all this and operate at a level of cloud native, I just can't. I can't get there. They see Amazon's relationship with VMware as a bridge to the future and takes away a lot of cognitive dissonance around the feelings around VMware's lack of cloud, if you will. In this case, now that's satisfied with the AWS deal and they're focused on operations on premises and how to get their app more closed, like modernize so a lot of the blocking and tackling of the customer is I got virtualization and that's great but I don't want to miss out on the next lever of innovation. Okay, I'm looking at it going slow but no one's instantly migrating to the cloud. >> No way, no way. >> They're either born in the cloud or you're on migration schedules now, really evaluating the financial impact, economic impact, headcount impact of cloud. That's the reality of the cloud. >> You got to throw a flag on some of that messaging of how easy it is to migrate. I mean it's just not that easy. I've talked to customers that said, "Well we started it and we just kind of gave up. "There was no point in it. "The new stuff we're going to do in the cloud, "but we're not going to migrate all of our apps to the cloud, "it just makes no sense, there's no business case for it." >> This is where NSX and containers and Kubernetes bet is big, I think, I think if NSX can connect the clouds with some sort of interoperable layer for whatever workloads are going to move on either Amazon or the clouds, that's good. If they want to get the developers off virtualization, into a new drug, if you will, it's going to be services, micro services, Kubernetes because you can throw containers around those old workloads, modernize with the new stuff without killing the old and Stu and I heard this clear at the CNCF and the Lennox Foundation, that this has changed the mindset because you don't have to kill the old to bring in the new. You can bring in the new, containerize the old and manage on your speed of the CIO. >> And that's Amazon's bet isn't it? I mean, look, even Sanjay even said, if you go back five, six years, the original reinvent that was sweep the floor, bring it all into the cloud? I think that's in Amazon's DNA. I mean ultimately that's their vision. That's what they want to have happen and the way they get there is how you just described it, John. >> That's where this partnership between Amazon and VMware is so important because, right, Amazon has a lot of the developers but needs to be able to get deeper into the enterprise and VMware, starting to make some progress with the developers, they've got a code initiative, they've got all of these cool projects that they announced with everything from server less and Kubernetes and many others, Edge going to be a key use case there but you know, VMware is not, this is not the developer show. Most of the conversations that I had with customers, we're talking IT things, I mean customers doing some cool things but it's about simplifying in my environment, it's about helping operations. Most of the conversations are not about this cool new micro services building these things out. >> Cisco really is the only legacy, traditional enterprise company that's crushing developers. You give IBM some chops, too, but I wouldn't say they're crushing it. We saw that at Cisco Live, Cisco is doing a phenomenal job with developers. >> Well the thing about the cloud, one thing I've been pointing out, observation that I have is if you look at the future of the cloud and you can look for metaphors and/or real examples, I think Amazon Web Services, obviously we know them well but Google Cloud to me is a picture of the future. Not in the sense of what they have for the customer's today it's the way they've run their business from day one. They have developers and they have SREs, Site Reliability Engineers. This VMworld community is going down two paths. Developers are going to be rapidly iterating on real apps and operators who are going to be running systems. That's network storage, all integrated. That's like an SRE at Google. Google's running massive scale and they perfected it, hence Kubernetes, hence some of the tools coming in to services like Istio and things that we're seeing in the Lennox Foundation. To me that's the future model, it's an operator and set of developers. Whoever can make that easy, completely seamless, is the winner of it all. >> And the linchpin, a linchpin, maybe not the linchpin, but a linchpin is still the database, right? We've seen that with Oracle. Why is Amazon going so hard after the database? I mean it's blatantly obvious what their strategy is. >> Database is the hill that everyone is trying to take down. Capture the hill, you get the high ground with the database. >> Come on Dave, when you used to do the financial models of how much money is spent by the enterprise, that database was a big chunk. We've seen the erosion of lots of licensing out there. When I talked to Microsoft, they're like, pushing a lot of open source, they're going to cloud. Microsoft licensing isn't as much. VMware licensing is something that customers would like to shrink over time but database is even bigger. >> It's a strategic fulcrum, obviously Oracle has it. Microsoft clearly has it with Sequel Server. IBM, a big part of IBM's success to this day, is DB2 running on mainframe. (laughing) So Amazon wants a piece of that action, they understand to be a major player in this business you have to have database infrastructure. >> I mean costs are going down, it's going to come down to economics. End of the day the operating models as I said, some things about DB2 on mainframe, the bottom line's going to come down to when the cost numbers to run at the value and cost expense involved in running the tech that's going to be the ultimate way that things are either going to be cleared out or replaced or expanded so the bottom line is it's going to be a cost equation at that level and then the upside's going to be revenue. >> And just a great thing for VMware, since they don't own the application, when they do things like RDS in their environment they are freeing up dollars that customers are then going to be more likely to want to spend with VMware. >> Great point. I want to make real quick, three things we've been watching this week. Is the Amazon VMware deal a one way trip to the cloud? I think it's clear not in the near term, anyway. And the second is what about the edge? The edge to me is all about data, it's like the wild, wild west. It's very unclear that there's a winner there but there's a new type of cloud emerging. And three is the Dell structure. We asked Pat, we asked VMware Ray O'Farrell, we asked Michael, if that 11 billion dollar special dividend was going to impact VMware's ability to fund it's future? Consistent answer there, no. You know, we'll see, we'll see. >> I mean what are they going to say? Yeah, that really limits my ability to buy companies, on theCUBE? No, that's the messaging so of course, 11 billion dollars gone means they can't do MNA with the cash, that means, yeah it's going to be R and D, what does that mean? Investment, so I think the answer is yes it does limit them a little bit. >> Has to. >> It's cash going out the door. >> But VMware just spent, it is rumored, around 500 million dollars for CloudHealth Technologies, Dave, Boston based company, with about 200 people You know, hey, have a billion-- >> They're going to put back a dividend anyway and do stock buybacks but I'm not sure 11 out of the 13 billion is what they would choose to do that for, so going forward, we'll see how it all plays out, obviously. I think, Floyer wrote about this, more has to go toward VMware, less toward-- >> I think it's the other way around. >> Well I think it's really good that we have one more day tomorrow. >> I think it's a one way trip to the cloud in a lot of instances, I think a lot of VMware customers are going to go off virtualization, not hypervisor and end up being in the cloud most of the business. It's going to be interesting, I think the size of customers that Amazon has now, versus VMware is what? Does VMware have more customers than Amazon right now? >> It's pretty close, right? VMware's 500,000? >> 500,000 for VMware. >> And Amazon's-- >> Over a million. >> Are they over a million, really? >> Yeah. >> A lot of smaller customers, but still. >> Yeah. >> Customer's a customer. >> But VMware might have bigger customers, see that's-- >> No question the ASP is higher, but-- >> It's not conflict, I'm just thinking like cloud is natural, right? Why wouldn't you want to use the cloud, right? I mean. >> So guys-- >> So the debate continues. >> Exactly. Good news is we have more time tomorrow to talk more about all this innovation as well as see more real world examples of how VMware is going to be enabling tech for good. Guys, thanks so much for your commentary and letting me be a part of the wrap. >> Thank you. >> Thanks, Lisa. >> Looking forward to day three tomorrow. For Dave, Stu and John, I'm Lisa Martin. You've been watching our coverage of day two VMworld 2018. We look forward to you joining us tomorrow, for day three. (upbeat techno music)

>> Live, from Las Vegas! It's theCube! Covering VMworld 2018. Brought to you by VMware and its ecosystem partners. >> Welcome back everyone, it's theCube's live coverage in Las Vegas for VMworld 2018, it's theCube. We got two sets, 24 interviews per day, 94 interviews total. Next three days, we're in day two of three days coverage. It's our ninth year of covering VMworld. It's been great. I'm John Furrier with Dave Vellante, next guest, Cube alumni, number one in the leading boards right now, Sanjay Poonen did a great job today on stage, keynote COO for VMware. Great to have you back. Thanks for coming on. >> John and Dave, you're always so kind to me, but I didn't realize you've been doing this nine years. >> This is our ninth year. >> That's half the life of VMware, awesome. Unreal. Congratulations. >> We know all the stories, all the hidden, nevermind, let's talk about your special day today. You had a really, so far, an amazing day, you were headlining the key note with a very special guest, and you did a great job. I want you to tell the story, who was on, what was the story about, how did this come about? Tech for good, a big theme in this conference has really been getting a lot of praise and a lot of great feedback. Take us through what happened today. >> Well listen, I think what we've been trying to do at VMware is really elevate our story and our vision. Elevate our partnerships, you've covered a lot of the narrative of what we've done with Andy Jessie. We felt this year, we usually have two 90 minute sessions, Day One, Day Two, and it's filled with content. We're technical company, product. We figured why don't we take 45 minutes out of the 180 minutes total and inspire people. With somebody who's had an impact on the world. And when we brainstormed, we had a lot of names suggested, I think there was a list of 10 or 15 and Malala stood out, she never spoke at a tech conference before. I loved her story, and we're all about education. The roots of VMware were at Stamford Campus. Diane Greene, and all of that story. You think about 130 million girls who don't go to school. We want to see more diversity in inclusion, and she'd never spoken so I was like, you know what, usually you go to these tech conferences and you've heard somebody who's spoken before. I'm like, lets invite her and see if she would come for the first time, and we didn't think she would. And we were able to score that, and I was still a little skeptical 'cause you never know is it going to work out or not. So thank you for saying it worked, I think we got a lot of good feedback. >> Well, in your first line, she was so endearing. You asked her what you thought a tech conference, you said too many acronyms. She just cracked the place up immediately. >> And then you heard my response, right? If somebody tells me like that, you tell VMotion wrong she looked at me what? >> Tell them about our story, real quick, our story I want to ask you a point in question. Her story, why her, and what motivated you to get her? >> Those stories, for any of you viewers, you should read the book "I'm Malala" but I'll give you the short version of the story. She was a nine year old in the Pashtun Area of the Swat Valley in Pakistan, and the Taliban setted a edict that girls could not go to school. Your rightful place was whatever, stay at home and become a mom with babies or whatever have you. You cannot go to school. And her father ran a school, Moster Yousafzai, wonderful man himself, an educator, a grandfather, and says know what, we're going to send you to school. Violating this order, and they gave a warning after warning and finally someone shot her in 2012, almost killed her. The bullet kind of came to her head, went down, and miraculously she escaped. Got on a sort of a hospital on a plane, was flown to London, and the world if you remember 2012, the world was following the story. She comes out of this and she's unscathed. She looks normal, she has a little bit of a thing on the right side of her face but her brains normal, everything's normal. Two years later she wins the Nobel Peace Prize. Has started the Malala Fund, and she is a force of nature, an amazing person. Tim Cook has been doing a lot with her in the Malala Fund. I think that actually caught my attention when Tim Cook was working with her, and you know whatever Apple does often gets a little bit of attention. >> Well great job selecting her. How's that relevant to what you guys are doing now, because you guys had a main theme Tech for Good? Why now, why VMware? A lot of people are looking at this, inspired by it. >> There are milestones in companies histories. We're at our 20 year birthday, and I'm sure at people's birthday they want to do big things, right? 20, 30, 40, 50, these decades are big ones and we thought, lets make this year a year to remember in various things we do. We had a 20 year anniversary celebration on campus, we invited Diane Greene back. It was a beautiful moment internally at Vmware during one of our employee meetings. It was a private moment, but just with her to thank her. And man, there were people emotional almost in tears saying thank you for starting this company. A way to give back to us, same way here. What better way to talk about the impact we're having in the community than have someone who is of this reputation. >> Well we're behind your mission 100%, anything you need. We loved the message, Tech for Good, people want to work for a mission driven company. People want to buy >> We hope so. >> from mission driven companies, that stated clear and the leadership you guys are providing is phenomenal. >> We had some rankings that came out around the same time. Fortune ranked companies who are changing the world, and VMware was ranked 17th overall, of all companies in the world and number one in the software category. So when you're trying to change the world, hopefully as you pointed out it's also an attractor of talent. You want to come here, and maybe even attractor of customers and partners. >> You know the other take-away was from the key note was how many Cricket fans there are in the VMworld Community. Of course we have a lot of folks from India, in our world but who's your favorite Cricketer? Was it Sachin Tendulkar? (laughs) >> Clearly you're reading off your notes Dave! >> Our Sonya's like our, >> Dead giveaway! >> Our Sonya's like our Cricket Geek and she's like, ask him about Sachin, no who's your favorite Cricketer, she wants to know. >> Sachin Tendulkar's way up there, Shayuda Free, the person she likes from Pakistan. I grew up playing cricket, listen I love all sports now that I'm here in this country I love football, I love basketball, I like baseball. So I'll watch all of them, but you know you kind of have those childhood memories. >> Sure >> And the childhood memories were like she talk about, India, Pakistan games. I mean this was like, L.A. Dodgers playing Giants or Red Socks, Yankee's, or Dallas Cowboys and the 49ers, or in Germany playing England or Brazil in the World Cup. Whatever your favorite country or team rivalry is, India Pakistan was all there more, but imagine like a billion people watching it. >> Yeah, well it was a nice touch on stage, and I'd say Ted Williams is my favorite cricketer, oh he plays baseball, he's a Red Sock's Player. Alright Sanjay, just cause your in the hot seat, lets get down to business here. Great moment on stage, congratulation. Okay Pat Gelsinger yesterday on the key note talked about the bridges, VMware bridging, connecting computers. One of the highlights is kind of in your wheelhouse, it's in your wheelhouse, the BYOD, Bring Your Own Device bridge. You're a big part of that. Making that work on on the mobile side. Now with Cloud this new bridge, how is that go forward because you still got to have all those table stakes, so with this new bridge of VMware's in this modern era, cloud and multicloud. Cluely validated, Andy Jassy, on stage. Doing something that Amazon's never done before, doing something on premise with VMware, is a huge deal. I mean we think it's a massive deal, we think it's super important, you guys are super committed to the relationship on premises hybrid cloud, multicloud, is validated as far as we're concerned. It's a done deal. Now ball's in your court, how are you going to bring all that mobile together, security, work space one, what's your plan? >> I would say that, listen on as I described in my story today there's two parts to the VMware story. There's a cloud foundation part which is the move the data center to the cloud in that bridge, and then there's the desk job move it to the mobile. Very briefly, yes three years of my five years were in that business, I'm deeply passionate about it. Much of my team now that I put in place there, Noah and Shankar are doing incredible jobs. We're very excited, and the opportunity's huge. I said at my key note of the seven billion people that live in the world, a billion I estimate, work for some company small or big and all of them have a phone. Likely many of those billion have a phone and a laptop, like you guys have here, right? That real estate of a billion in a half, maybe two billion devices, laptops and phones, maybe in some cases laptop, phone, and tablets. Someone's going to manage and secure, and their diverse across Apple, Google, big option for us. We're just getting started, and we're already the leader. In the data center, the cloud world, Pat, myself, Raghu, really as we sat three years ago felt like we shouldn't be a public cloud ourselves. We divested vCloud Air, as I've talked to you on your show before, Andy Jassy is a friend, dear friend and a classmate of mine from Harvard Business School. We began those discussions the three of us. Pat, Raghu, and myself with Andy and his team and as every quarter and year has gone on they become deeper and deep partnerships. Andy has told other companies that VMware Amazon is the model partnership Amazon has, as they describe who they would like to do business more with. So we're proud when they do that, when we see that happen. And we want to continue that. So when Amazon came to us and said listen I think there's an opportunity to take some of our stack and put it on premise. We kept that confidential cause we didn't want it to leak out to the world, and we said we're going to try'n annouce it at either VMworld or re:Invent. And we were successful. A part with these projects is they inevitably leak. We're really glad no press person sniffed it out. There was a lot of speculation. >> Couldn't get confirmation. >> There was a lot of speculation but no one sniffed it out and wrote a story about it, we were able to have that iPhone moment today, I'm sorry, yesterday when we unveiled it. And it's a big deal because RDS is a fast growing business for them. RDS landing on premise, they could try to do on their own but what better infrastructure to land it on than VMware. In some cases would be VMware running on VxRail which benefits Dell, our hardware partners. And we'll continue doing more, and more, and more as customers desire, so I'm excited about it. >> Andy doesn't do deals, as you know Andy well as we do. He's customer driven. Tell me about the customer demand on this because it's something we're trying to get reporting on. Obviously it makes sense, technically the way it's working. You guys and Andy, they just don't do deals out of the blue. There's customer drivers here, what are those drivers? >> Yeah, we're both listening to our customers and perhaps three, four, five years ago they were very focused on student body left, everybody goes public cloud. Like forget your on premise, evaporate, obliterate your data centers and just go completely public. That was their message. >> True, sweep the floor. >> Right, if you went to first re:Invent I was there on stage with them as an SAP employee, that's what I heard. I think you fast forward to 2014, 2015 they're beginning to realize, hey listen it's not as easy. Refactoring your apps, migrating those apps, what if we could bring the best of private cloud and public cloud together enter VMware and Amazon. He may have felt it was harder to have those cultivations of VMware or for all kinds of reasons, like we had vCloud Air and so on and so forth but once we divested that decision culminations had matured between us that door opened. And as that door opened, more culminations began. Jointly between us and with customers. We feel that there are customers who want many of those past type of services of premise. Cause you're building great things, relational database technology, AI, VI maybe. IoT type of technologies if they are landing on premise in an edge-computing kind of world, why not land on VMware because we're the king of the private cloud. We're very happy to those, we progress those discussion. I think in infrastructure software VMware and Amazon have some of the best engineers on the planet. Sometimes we've engineers who've gone between both companies. So we were able to put our engineering team's together. This is a joint engineering effort. Andy and us often talk about the fact that great innovation's built when it's not just Barny go to Marketing and Marketing press releases this. The true joint engineering at a deep level. That's what happened the last several months. >> Well I can tell you right now the commitment I've seen from an executive level and deep technology, both sides are deep and committed to this. It's go big or go home, at least from our perspective. Question I want to ask you Sanjay is you're close to the customer's of VMware. What's the growth strategy? If you zoom out, look down on stage and you got vSAN, NSX at the core, >> vSANjay (laughs) >> How can you not like a product that has my name on it? >> So you got all these things, where's the growth going to come from, the merging side, is the v going to be the stable crown jewels at NSX? How do you guys see the growth, where's it going to come from? >> Just kind of look at our last quarter. I mean if you peel back the narrative, John and Dave, two years ago we were growing single digits. Like low single digits. Two, three percent. That was, maybe the legacy loser description of VMware was the narrative everyone was talking about >> License revenue was flattish right? >> And then now all of sudden we're double digits. 12, 15 sort of in that range for both product revenue. It's harder to grow faster when you're bigger, and what's happened is that we stabilize compute with vSphere in that part and it's actually been growing a little bit because I think people in the VMware cloud provider part of our business, and the halo effect of the cloud meant that as they refresh the servers they were buying more research. That's good. The management business has started to grow again. Some cases double digits, but at least sort of single digits. NSX, the last few order grew like 30, 40%. vSAN last year was growing 100% off a smaller base, this year going 60, 70%. EUC has been growing double digits, taking a lot of share from company's like Citrix and MobileIron and others. And now, also still growing double digits at much bigger paces, and some of those businesses are well over a billion. Compute, management, end-user computing. We talked about NSX on our queue forming called being a 1.4 billion. So when you get businesses to scale, about a billion dollar type businesses and their sort of four, training five that are in that area, and they all get to grow faster than the market. That's the key, you got to get them going fast. That's how you get growth. So we focus on those on those top five businesses and then add a few more. Like VMware Cloud on AWS, right now our goal is customer logo count. Revenue will come but we talked on our earnings call about a few hundred customers of VMware Cloud and AWS. As that gets into the thousands, and there's absolutely that option, why? Because there's 500,000 customers of VMware and two million customers of Amazon, so there's got to be a lot of commonality between those two to get a few thousand. Then we'll start caring about revenue there too, but once you have logos, you have references. Containers, I'd like to see PKS have a few hundred customers and then, we put one on stage today. National Commercial Bank of Jamaica. Fantastic story of PKS. I even got my PKS socks for this interview. (John laughs) >> So that give you a sense as to how we think, there will be four, five that our businesses had scale and then a few are starting to get there, and they become business to scale. The nature of software is we'll always be doing this show because there will be new businesses to talk about. >> Yeah, hardware is easy. Software is hard, as Andy Patchenstien said on theCUBE yesterday. Congratulations Sanjay and all the success, you guys are doing great financially. Products looking really good coming out, the bloom is rising from the fruit you guys have harvested, coming together. >> John if I can say one last thing, I shared a picture of a plane today and I put two engines behind it. There's something I've learned over the last years about focus of a company, and I joked about different ways that my name's are pronounced but at the core of me there's a DNA. I said on stage I'd rather not be known as smart or stupid but having a big heart. VMware, I hope is known by our customers as having these two engines. An engine of innovation, innovating product and a variety of other things. And focused on customer obsession. We do those, the plane will go a long way. >> And it's looking good you guys, we can say we've been to Radio Event, we've been doing a lot of great stuff. Congratulations on the initiative, and a great interview with you today on doing Tech for Good and sharing your story. Getting more exposure to the kind of narratives people want to hear. More women in tech, more girls in tech, more democratization. Congratulations and thanks so much for sharing. >> Thank you John and Dave. >> Appreciate you being here. >> Sanjay Poonen, COO of VMware. Friend of theCUBE, Cube Alumni, overall great guy. Big heart and competitive too, we know that from his Twitter stream. Follow Sanjay on Twitter. You'll have a great time. I'm John Furrier with Dave Vellante, stay with us for more coverage from day two live, here in Las Vegas for VMware 2018. Stay with us. (tech music)