>> Live from Boston, it's theCUBE covering IBM Chief Data Officer Summit. Brought to you by IBM. >> Welcome back everyone to theCUBE's live coverage of the IBM CDO Summit here in beautiful Boston, Massachusetts. I'm your host, Rebecca Knight, along with my co-host Paul Gillin. We have two guests for this segment, we have Susan Wagner, who is the VP Data Artificial Intelligence and Governance at Deutsche Telekom and Madhu Kochar, whose the Vice President Analytics Product Development at IBM. Thank you so much for coming on the show. >> Thank you. >> Happy to be here. Susan you're coming to us from Berlin, tell us a little bit about what you it's a relatively new job title and Paul was marveling before the cameras are rolling. Do you have artificial intelligence in your job title? Tell us a little bit about what you do at Deutsche Telekom. >> So we have a long history, working with data and this is a central role in the headquarter guiding the different data and artificial intelligence activities within Deutsche Telekom. So we have different countries, different business units, we have activities there. We have already use case catalog of 300,000 cases there and from a central point we are looking at it and saying, how are we able really to get the business benefit out of it. So we are looking at the different product, the different cases and looking for some help for the business units, how to scale things. For example, we have a case we implemented in one of our countries, it was about a call center to predict if someone calls the call center, if this is a problem, we would never have(laughing) at Deutsche Telekom but it could happen and then we open a ticket and we are working on it and then we're closing that ticket and but the problem is not solved, so the ticket comes again and the customer will call again and this is very bad for us bad for the customer and we did on AI project, there predicting what kind of tickets will come back in future and this we implemented in a way that we are able to use it not only in one country, but really give it to the next country. So our other business units other countries can take the code and use it in another country. That's one example. >> Wow. >> How would you define artificial intelligence? There's someone who has in your job-- (laughing) >> That's sometimes very difficult question I must admit. I'm normally if I would say from a scientific point, it's really to have a machine that works and feels and did everything like a human. If you look now at the hype, it's more about how we learn, how we do things and not about I would say it's about robotic and stuff like that but it's more how we are learning and the major benefit we are getting now out of artificial intelligence is really that we are able now to really work on data. We have great algorithm and a lot of progress there and we have the chips that develops so far that we are able to do that. It's far away from things like a little kid can do because little kid can just, you show them an apple and then it knows an apple is green. It's were-- >> A little kid can't open a support ticket. (laughing) >> Yeah, but that's very special, so in where we special areas, we are already very, very good in things, but this is an area, for example, if you have an (mumbles) who is able like we did to predict this kind of tickets this agreement is not able at the moment to say this as an apple and this is an orange, so you need another one. So we are far away from really having something like a general intelligence there. >> Madhu do I want to bring you into this conversation. (laughing) And a little bit just in terms of what Susan was saying the sort of the shiny newness of it all. Where do you think we are in terms of thinking about the data getting in the weeds of the data and then also sort of the innovations that we saw, dream about really impacting the bottom line and making the customer experience better and also the employee experience better? >> Yeah, so from IBM perspective, especially coming from data and analytics, very simple message, right? We have what we say your letter to AI. Everybody like Susan and every other company who is part of doing any digital transformation or modernization is talking about Ai. So our message is very simple, in order to get to the letter of AI, the most critical part is that you have access to data, right? You can trust your data, so this way you can start using it in terms of building models, not just predictive models but prescriptive and diagnostics. Everything needs to kind of come together, right? So that is what we are doing in data analytics. Our message is very, very simple. The innovations are coming in from the perspectives of machine learning, deep learning and making and to me that all equates to automation, right? A lot of this stuff data curation, I think you can Susan, tell how long and how manual the data curation aspects can be. Now with machine learning, getting to your latter of AI, You can do this in a matter of hours, right? And you can get to your business users, you can if your CHARM model, If your clients are not happy, your fraud, you have to detect in your bank or retail industry, it just applies to all the industry. So there is tons of innovation happening. We just actually announced a product earlier called IBM Cloud Private for Data. This is our the analytics platform which is ready with data built in governance to handle all your data curation and be building models which you can test it out, have all the DevOps and push it into production. Really, really trying to get clients like Deutsche Telekom to get their journey there faster. Very simple-- >> We've heard from many of our guests today about the importance of governance, of having good quality data before you can start building anything with it. What was that process like? How is the... what is the quality of data like at Deutsche Telekom and what work did it take to get it in that condition. >> So data quality is a major issue everywhere, because as Madhu that this is one of the essential things to really get into learning, if you want to learn, you need the data and we have in the different countries, different kind of majorities and what we are doing at the moment is that we are really doing it case by case because you cannot do everything from the beginning, so you start with one of the cases looking what to do there? How to define the quality? And then if the business asked for the next case, then you can integrate that, so you have the business impact, you have demand from the business and then you can integrate the data quality there and we are doing it really step by step because to bring it to the business from the beginning, it's very, very difficult. >> You mentioned, one of the new products that you announced just today, what are some of the-- (laughing) >> We announced it in may. >> Oh, okay, I'm sorry. >> It's okay still new. >> In terms of the other innovations in the pipeline, what I mean this is such a marvelous and exciting time for technology. What are some of the most exciting developments that you see? >> I think the most exciting, especially if I talk about what I do day out everything revolves around metadata, right? Used to be not a very sticky term, but it is becoming quite sexy all over again, right? And all the work in automatic metadata generation, understanding the lineage where the data is coming from. How easy, we can make it to the business users, then all the machine learning algorithms which we are doing in terms of our prescriptive models and predictive, right? Predictive maintenance is such a huge thing. So there's a lot of work going on there and then also one of the aspects is how do you build once and run anywhere, right? If you really look at the business data, it's behind the firewalls, Is in multicloud. How do you bring solutions which are going to be bringing all the data? Doesn't matter where it resides, right? And so there's a lot of innovation like that which we are working and bringing in onto our platform to make it really simple story make data easy access which you can trust. >> One of the remarkable things about machine learning is that the leading libraries have all been open source, Google, Facebook, eBay, others have open source their libraries. What impact do you think that has had on the speed with which machine learning is developed? >> Just amazing, right. I think that gives us that agility to quickly able to use it, enhance it, give it back to the community. That has been the one of the tenants for, I think that how everybody's out there, moving really really fast. Open source is going to play a very critical role for IBM, and we're seeing that with many of our clients as well. >> What tools are you using? >> We're using different kind of tools that depending on the departments, so the data scientists like to use our patents. (laughing) They are always use it, but we are using a lot like the Jupiter notebook, for example, to have different kind of code in there. We have in one of our countries, the classical things like thus there and the data scientists working with that one or we have the Cloud-R workbench to really bringing things into the business. We have in some business-- >> Data science experience. >> IBM, things integrated, so it it really depends a little bit on the different and that's a little bit the challenge because you really have to see how people working together and how do we really get the data, the models the sharing right. >> And then also the other challenges that all the CDOs face that we've been talking about today, the getting by in the-- >> Yes. >> The facing unrealistic expectations of what data can actually do. I mean, how would you describe how you are able to work with the business side? As a chief working in the chief data office. >> Yeah, so what I really like and what I'm always doing with the business that we are going to the business and doing really a joint approach having a workshop together like the design thinking workshop with the business and the demand has to come from the business. And then you have really the data scientists in there the data engineers best to have the operational people in there and even the controlling not all the time, but that it's really clear that all people are involved from the beginning and then you're really able to bring it into production. >> That's the term of DataOps, right? That's starting to become a big thing. DevOps was all about to agility. Now DataOps bring all these various groups together and yeah I mean that's how you we really move forward. >> So for organizations so that's both of you for organizations that are just beginning to go down the machine learning path that are excited by everything you've been hearing here. What advice would you have for them? They're just getting started. >> I think if you're just getting started to me, the long pole item is all about understanding where your data is, right? The data curation. I have seen over and over again, everybody's enthusiastic. They love the technology, but the... It just doesn't progress fast enough because of that. So invest in tooling where they have automation with machine learning where they can quickly understand it, right? Data virtualization, nobody's going to move data, right? They're sitting in bedrock systems access to that which I call dark data, is important because that is sometimes your golden nugget because that's going to help you make the decisions. So to me that's where I would focus first, everything else around it just becomes a lot easier. >> Great. >> So-- >> Do you have a best practice too? Yeah. >> Yeah. Focus on really bringing quick impact on some of the cases because they're like the management needs success, so you need some kind of quick access and then really working on the basics like Madhu said, you need to have access of the data because if you don't start work on that it will take you every time like half a year. We have some cases where we took finance department half a year to really get all that kind of data and you have to sharpen that for the future, but you need the fast equipments. You need to do both. >> Excellent advice. >> Right, well Susan and Madhu thank you so much for coming on theCUBE, it's been great having you. >> Thank you. >> Thank you. >> I'm Rebecca Knight for Paul Gillin we will have more from theCUBE's live coverage of the IBM CDO just after this. (upbeat music)

>> From theCUBE Studios in Palo Alto in Boston, bringing you data-driven insights from theCUBE and ETR, this is Breaking Analysis with Dave Vellante. >> While never really meant to be a consumer tech event, the rapid ascendancy of smartphones sucked much of the air out of Mobile World Congress over the years, now MWC. And while the device manufacturers continue to have a major presence at the show, the maturity of intelligent devices, longer life cycles, and the disaggregation of the network stack, have put enterprise technologies front and center in the telco business. Semiconductor manufacturers, network equipment players, infrastructure companies, cloud vendors, software providers, and a spate of startups are eyeing the trillion dollar plus communications industry as one of the next big things to watch this decade. Hello, and welcome to this week's Wikibon CUBE Insights, powered by ETR. In this Breaking Analysis, we bring you part two of our ongoing coverage of MWC '23, with some new data on enterprise players specifically in large telco environments, a brief glimpse at some of the pre-announcement news and corresponding themes ahead of MWC, and some of the key announcement areas we'll be watching at the show on theCUBE. Now, last week we shared some ETR data that showed how traditional enterprise tech players were performing, specifically within the telecoms vertical. Here's a new look at that data from ETR, which isolates the same companies, but cuts the data for what ETR calls large telco. The N in this cut is 196, down from 288 last week when we included all company sizes in the dataset. Now remember the two dimensions here, on the y-axis is net score, or spending momentum, and on the x-axis is pervasiveness in the data set. The table insert in the upper left informs how the dots and companies are plotted, and that red dotted line, the horizontal line at 40%, that indicates a highly elevated net score. Now while the data are not dramatically different in terms of relative positioning, there are a couple of changes at the margin. So just going down the list and focusing on net score. Azure is comparable, but slightly lower in this sector in the large telco than it was overall. Google Cloud comes in at number two, and basically swapped places with AWS, which drops slightly in the large telco relative to overall telco. Snowflake is also slightly down by one percentage point, but maintains its position. Remember Snowflake, overall, its net score is much, much higher when measuring across all verticals. Snowflake comes down in telco, and relative to overall, a little bit down in large telco, but it's making some moves to attack this market that we'll talk about in a moment. Next are Red Hat OpenStack and Databricks. About the same in large tech telco as they were an overall telco. Then there's Dell next that has a big presence at MWC and is getting serious about driving 16G adoption, and new servers, and edge servers, and other partnerships. Cisco and Red Hat OpenShift basically swapped spots when moving from all telco to large telco, as Cisco drops and Red Hat bumps up a bit. And VMware dropped about four percentage points in large telco. Accenture moved up dramatically, about nine percentage points in big telco, large telco relative to all telco. HPE dropped a couple of percentage points. Oracle stayed about the same. And IBM surprisingly dropped by about five points. So look, I understand not a ton of change in terms of spending momentum in the large sector versus telco overall, but some deltas. The bottom line for enterprise players is one, they're just getting started in this new disruption journey that they're on as the stack disaggregates. Two, all these players have experience in delivering horizontal solutions, but now working with partners and identifying big problems to be solved, and three, many of these companies are generally not the fastest moving firms relative to smaller disruptive disruptors. Now, cloud has been an exception in fairness. But the good news for the legacy infrastructure and IT companies is that the telco transformation and the 5G buildout is going to take years. So it's moving at a pace that is very favorable to many of these companies. Okay, so looking at just some of the pre-announcement highlights that have hit the wire this week, I want to give you a glimpse of the diversity of innovation that is occurring in the telecommunication space. You got semiconductor manufacturers, device makers, network equipment players, carriers, cloud vendors, enterprise tech companies, software companies, startups. Now we've included, you'll see in this list, we've included OpeRAN, that logo, because there's so much buzz around the topic and we're going to come back to that. But suffice it to say, there's no way we can cover all the announcements from the 2000 plus exhibitors at the show. So we're going to cherry pick here and make a few call outs. Hewlett Packard Enterprise announced an acquisition of an Italian private cellular network company called AthoNet. Zeus Kerravala wrote about it on SiliconANGLE if you want more details. Now interestingly, HPE has a partnership with Solana, which also does private 5G. But according to Zeus, Solona is more of an out-of-the-box solution, whereas AthoNet is designed for the core and requires more integration. And as you'll see in a moment, there's going to be a lot of talk at the show about private network. There's going to be a lot of news there from other competitors, and we're going to be watching that closely. And while many are concerned about the P5G, private 5G, encroaching on wifi, Kerravala doesn't see it that way. Rather, he feels that these private networks are really designed for more industrial, and you know mission critical environments, like factories, and warehouses that are run by robots, et cetera. 'Cause these can justify the increased expense of private networks. Whereas wifi remains a very low cost and flexible option for, you know, whatever offices and homes. Now, over to Dell. Dell announced its intent to go hard after opening up the telco network with the announcement that in the second half of this year it's going to begin shipping its infrastructure blocks for Red Hat. Remember it's like kind of the converged infrastructure for telco with a more open ecosystem and sort of more flexible, you know, more mature engineered system. Dell has also announced a range of PowerEdge servers for a variety of use cases. A big wide line bringing forth its 16G portfolio and aiming squarely at the telco space. Dell also announced, here we go, a private wireless offering with airspan, and Expedo, and a solution with AthoNet, the company HPE announced it was purchasing. So I guess Dell and HPE are now partnering up in the private wireless space, and yes, hell is freezing over folks. We'll see where that relationship goes in the mid- to long-term. Dell also announced new lab and certification capabilities, which we said last week was going to be critical for the further adoption of open ecosystem technology. So props to Dell for, you know, putting real emphasis and investment in that. AWS also made a number of announcements in this space including private wireless solutions and associated managed services. AWS named Deutsche Telekom, Orange, T-Mobile, Telefonica, and some others as partners. And AWS announced the stepped up partnership, specifically with T-Mobile, to bring AWS services to T-Mobile's network portfolio. Snowflake, back to Snowflake, announced its telecom data cloud. Remember we showed the data earlier, it's Snowflake not as strong in the telco sector, but they're continuing to move toward this go-to market alignment within key industries, realigning their go-to market by vertical. It also announced that AT&T, and a number of other partners, are collaborating to break down data silos specifically in telco. Look, essentially, this is Snowflake taking its core value prop to the telco vertical and forming key partnerships that resonate in the space. So think simplification, breaking down silos, data sharing, eventually data monetization. Samsung previewed its future capability to allow smartphones to access satellite services, something Apple has previously done. AMD, Intel, Marvell, Qualcomm, are all in the act, all the semiconductor players. Qualcomm for example, announced along with Telefonica, and Erickson, a 5G millimeter network that will be showcased in Spain at the event this coming week using Qualcomm Snapdragon chipset platform, based on none other than Arm technology. Of course, Arm we said is going to dominate the edge, and is is clearly doing so. It's got the volume advantage over, you know, traditional Intel, you know, X86 architectures. And it's no surprise that Microsoft is touting its open AI relationship. You're going to hear a lot of AI talk at this conference as is AI is now, you know, is the now topic. All right, we could go on and on and on. There's just so much going on at Mobile World Congress or MWC, that we just wanted to give you a glimpse of some of the highlights that we've been watching. Which brings us to the key topics and issues that we'll be exploring at MWC next week. We touched on some of this last week. A big topic of conversation will of course be, you know, 5G. Is it ever going to become real? Is it, is anybody ever going to make money at 5G? There's so much excitement around and anticipation around 5G. It has not lived up to the hype, but that's because the rollout, as we've previous reported, is going to take years. And part of that rollout is going to rely on the disaggregation of the hardened telco stack, as we reported last week and in previous Breaking Analysis episodes. OpenRAN is a big component of that evolution. You know, as our RAN intelligent controllers, RICs, which essentially the brain of OpenRAN, if you will. Now as we build out 5G networks at massive scale and accommodate unprecedented volumes of data and apply compute-hungry AI to all this data, the issue of energy efficiency is going to be front and center. It has to be. Not only is it a, you know, hot political issue, the reality is that improving power efficiency is compulsory or the whole vision of telco's future is going to come crashing down. So chip manufacturers, equipment makers, cloud providers, everybody is going to be doubling down and clicking on this topic. Let's talk about AI. AI as we said, it is the hot topic right now, but it is happening not only in consumer, with things like ChatGPT. And think about the theme of this Breaking Analysis in the enterprise, AI in the enterprise cannot be ChatGPT. It cannot be error prone the way ChatGPT is. It has to be clean, reliable, governed, accurate. It's got to be ethical. It's got to be trusted. Okay, we're going to have Zeus Kerravala on the show next week and definitely want to get his take on private networks and how they're going to impact wifi. You know, will private networks cannibalize wifi? If not, why not? He wrote about this again on SiliconANGLE if you want more details, and we're going to unpack that on theCUBE this week. And finally, as always we'll be following the data flows to understand where and how telcos, cloud players, startups, software companies, disruptors, legacy companies, end customers, how are they going to make money from new data opportunities? 'Cause we often say in theCUBE, don't ever bet against data. All right, that's a wrap for today. Remember theCUBE is going to be on location at MWC 2023 next week. We got a great set. We're in the walkway in between halls four and five, right in Congress Square, stand CS-60. Look for us, we got a full schedule. If you got a great story or you have news, stop by. We're going to try to get you on the program. I'll be there with Lisa Martin, co-hosting, David Nicholson as well, and the entire CUBE crew, so don't forget to come by and see us. I want to thank Alex Myerson, who's on production and manages the podcast, and Ken Schiffman, as well, in our Boston studio. Kristen Martin and Cheryl Knight help get the word out on social media and in our newsletters. And Rob Hof is our editor-in-chief over at SiliconANGLE.com. He does some great editing. Thank you. All right, remember all these episodes they are available as podcasts wherever you listen. All you got to do is search Breaking Analysis podcasts. I publish each week on Wikibon.com and SiliconANGLE.com. All the video content is available on demand at theCUBE.net, or you can email me directly if you want to get in touch David.Vellante@SiliconANGLE.com or DM me @DVellante, or comment on our LinkedIn posts. And please do check out ETR.ai for the best survey data in the enterprise tech business. This is Dave Vellante for theCUBE Insights, powered by ETR. Thanks for watching. We'll see you next week at Mobile World Congress '23, MWC '23, or next time on Breaking Analysis. (bright music)

(upbeat music) >> Telecommunic^ations is well north of a trillion-dollar business globally that provides critical services on which virtually everyone on the planet relies. Dramatic changes are occurring in the sector, and one of the most important dimensions of this change is the underlying infrastructure that powers global telecommunications networks. Telcos have been thawing out, if you will, their frozen infrastructure, modernizing. They're opening up. They're disaggregating their infrastructure, separating, for example, the control plane from the data plane and adopting open standards. Telco infrastructure is becoming software-defined, and leading telcos are adopting cloud-native microservices to help make developers more productive, so they can respond more quickly to market changes. They're embracing technology consumption models and selectively leveraging the cloud where it makes sense, and these changes are being driven by market forces, the root of which stem from customer demand. So from a customer's perspective, they want services, and they want them fast, meaning not only at high speeds, but also they want them now. Customers want the latest, the greatest, and they want these services to be reliable and stable with high quality of service levels, and they want them to be highly cost effective. Hello and welcome to this preview of Mobile World Congress 2023. My name is Dave Vellante and at this year's event, theCUBE has a major presence at the show, made possible by Dell Technologies, and with me, to unpack the trends in Telco and look ahead to MWC 23, Dennis Hoffman. He's the senior vice-president and general manager of Dell's telecom business and Aaron Chaisson, who is the vice-president of telecom and edge solutions marketing at Dell Technologies. Gentlemen, welcome. Thanks so much for spending some time with me. >> Thank you, Dave. >> Thanks, glad to be here. So, Dennis, let's start with you. Telcos in recent history have been slow to deliver and to monetize new services, in a large part, because their purpose-built infrastructure can been somewhat of a barrier to respondent to these market forces. In many ways, this is what makes telecoms, really, this market, so exciting. So from your perspective, where is the action in this space? >> Yeah, the action, Dave, is kind of all over the place, partly because it's an ecosystem play. You know, I think it's been, as you point out, the disaggregation trend has been going on for a while. The opportunity's been clear, but it has taken a few years to get all of the vendors and all of the components that make up a solution, as well as the operators themselves, to a point where we can start putting this stuff together and actually achieving some of the promise. >> So, Aaron, for those who might not be as familiar with Dell's a activities in this area, you know, here we are just ahead of Mobile World Congress. It's the largest event for telecoms. What should people know about Dell, and what's the key message to this industry? >> Sure, yeah, I think everybody knows that there's a lot of innovation that's been happening in the industry of late. One of the major trends that we're seeing is that shift from more of a vertically-integrated technology stack to more of a disaggregated set of solutions, and that trend has actually created a ton of innovation that's happening across the industry, well, along technology vendors and providers, the telecoms themselves, and so one of the things that Dell's really looking to do is, as Dennis talked about, is build out a really strong ecosystem of partners and vendors that we're working closely together to be able to collaborate on new technologies, new capabilities, that are solving challenges that the networks are seeing today, be able to create new solutions built on those in order to be able to bring new value to the industry and then finally, we want to help both partners as well as our CSP providers activate those changes so that they can bring new solutions to market to be able to serve their customers, and so the key areas that we're really focusing on, with our customers, is technologies to help modernize the network to be able to capitalize on the value of open architectures and bring price performance to what they're expecting and availability that they're expecting today and then also partner with the lines of business to be able to take these new capabilities, produce new solutions and then deliver new value to their customers. >> Great, thank you, Aaron. So, Dennis, I have known you for a number of years. I've watched you. You are a trend spotter, and you're a strategic thinker, and I love now the fact that you're running a business that you had to go out and analyze, and now you got got to make it happen. So how would you describe Dell's strategy in this market? >> Well, it's really two things, and I appreciate the comment. I'm not sure how much of a trend spotter I am, but I certainly enjoy, and I think I'm fascinated by what's going on in this industry right now. Our two main thrusts, Dave, are, first round, trying to catalyze that ecosystem, you know, be a force for pulling together a group of folks, vendors, that have been flying in fairly loose formation for a couple of years to deliver the kinds of solutions that move the needle forward and produce the outcomes that our network-operator customers can actually buy, and consume, and deploy, and have them be supported. The other thing is there's a couple of very key technology areas that need to be advanced here. This ends up being a much anticipated year, in telecom, because of the delivery of some open infrastructure solutions that have been being developed for years, with the Intel Sapphire Rapids program coming to market. We've of course got some purpose-built solutions on top of that for telecommunications networks, some expanded partnerships in the area of multi-cloud infrastructure, and so I would say the second main thrust is we've got to bring some intellectual property to the party. It's not just about pulling the ecosystem together, but those two things together really form the twin thrusts of our strategy. >> Okay, so as you point out, you're obviously not going to go alone in this market. It's way too broad. There's so many routes to market, partnerships, obviously, very, very important. So can you share a little bit more about the ecosystem and partners, maybe give some examples of some of the key partners that you'd be highlighting or working with, maybe at Mobile World Congress or other activities this year? >> Yeah, absolutely. You know, as Aaron touched on. I'm a visual thinker. The way I think about this thing is a very, very vertical architecture is tipping sideways. It's becoming horizontal, and all of the layers of that horizontal architecture are really where the partnerships are at. So let's start at the bottom, silicon. The silicon ecosystem is very much focused on this market and producing very specific products to enable open, high-performance telecom networks. That's both in the form of host processors as well as accelerators. One layer up, of course, is the stuff that we're known for, subsystems, compute, storage, the hardware infrastructure that forms the foundation for telco clouds. A layer above that, all of the cloud software layer, the virtualization and containerization software and all of the usual suspects there, all of whom are very good partners of ours, and we're looking to expand that pretty broadly this year, and then at the top of the layer cake, all of the network functions, all of the VNFs and CNFs that were once kind of the top of proprietary stacks that are now opening up and being delivered as well-formed containers that can run on these clouds. So, you know, we're focusing on all of those, if you will, product partnerships, and there is a services wrapper around all of it, the systems integration necessary to make these systems part of a carrier's network, which, of course, has been running for a long time and needs to be integrated with in a very specific way, and so all of that together kind of forms the ecosystem. All of those are partners, and we're really excited about being at the heart of it. >> Interesting, it's not like we've never seen this movie before, which is sort of repeating itself in telco. Aaron, you heard my little intro up front about the need to modernize infrastructure. I wonder if I could touch on, you know, another major trend which we're seeing, is the cloud, and I'm talking about, not only public, but private and hybrid cloud. The public cloud is an opportunity, but it's also a threat for telcos. You know, telecom providers are looking to the public cloud for specific use cases. You think about, like, bursting for an iPhone launch or whatever but at the same time, these cloud vendors, they're sort of competing with telcos. They're providing, you know, local zones, for example, sometimes trying to do an end run on the telco connectivity services. So telecom companies, they have to find the right balance between what they own and what they rent, and I wonder if you could add some color as to what you see in the market and what Dell, specifically, is doing to support these trends. >> Yeah, I think the most important thing is what we're seeing, as you said, is these aren't things that we haven't seen before, and I think that telecom is really going through their own set of cloud transformations, and so one of the hot topics in the industry now is what is telco cloud and what does that look like going forward? And it's going to be a, as you said, a combination of services that they offer, services that they leverage, but at the end of the day, it's going to help them modernize how they deliver telecommunication services to their customers and then provide value-added services on top of that. From a Dell perspective, you know, we're really providing the technologies to provide the underpinnings to lay a foundation on which that network can be built, whether that's best-of-breed servers that are built and designed for the telecom environments. Recently we announced our, our Infra Block program in partnering with virtualization providers to be able to provide engineered systems that dramatically simplify how our customers can deploy, manage and lifecycle-manage throughout day-two operations, an entire cloud environment, and whether they're using Red Hat, whether they're using Wind River or VMware or other virtualization layers, they can deploy the right virtualization layer at the right part of their network to support the applications they're looking to drive, and Dell is looking to solve how they simplify and manage all of that, both from a hardware as well as a management software perspective. So this is really what Dell's doing to, again, partner with the broader technology community to help make that telco cloud a reality. >> Aaron, let's stay here for a second. I'm interested in some of the use cases that you're going after with customers. You've got edge infrastructure, remote work, 5G. Where's security fit? What are the focus areas for Dell, and can we double-click on that a little bit? >> Yeah, I mean, I think there's two main areas of telecommunication industry that we're talking to. One, we've really been talking about sort of the network buyer, how do they modernize the core, the network edge, the RAN capabilities, to deliver traditional telecommunication services and modernize that as they move into 5G and beyond. I think the other side of the business is telecoms are really looking, from a line of business perspective, to figure out how do they monetize that network and be able to deliver value-added services to their enterprise customers on top of these new networks. So you were just touching on a couple of things that are really critical. You know, in the enterprise space, AI and IoT is driving a tremendous amount of innovation out there, and there's a need for being able to support and manage edge compute at scale, be able to provide connectivity, like private mobility and 4G and 5G, being able to support things like mobile workforces and client capabilities to be able to access these devices that are around all of these edge environments of the enterprises, and telecoms are seen as that, as an opportunity for them to not only provide connectivity, but how do they extend their cloud out into these enterprise environments with compute, with connectivity, with client and connectivity resources, and even also provide protection for those environments as well. So these are areas that Dell's historically very strong at, being able to provide compute, being able to provide connectivity and being able to provide data protection and client services. We are looking to work closely with lines of businesses to be able to develop solutions that they can bring to market in combination with us to be able to serve their end user customers and their enterprises. So those are really the two key areas, not only network buyer, but being able to enable the lines of business to go and capitalize on the services they're developing for their customers. >> I think that line of business aspect is key. I mean, the telcos have had to sit back and provide the plumbing. Cost per bit goes down. Data consumption going through the roof. All the way over to the top guys, you know, had the field day with the data and the customer relationships, and now it's almost like the revenge of the telcos. (chuckles) Dennis, I wonder if we could talk about the future. What can we expect in the years ahead from Dell, if you, you know, break out the binoculars a little bit? >> Yeah, I think you hit it earlier. We've seen the movie before. This has happened in the IT data center. We went from proprietary vertical solutions to horizontal open systems. We went from client server to software-defined, open-hardware, cloud-native and you know, the trend is likely to be exactly that, in the telecom industry, because that's what the operators want. They're not naive to what's happened in the IT data center. They all run very large data centers, and they're trying to get some of the scale economies, some of the agility, the cost of ownership benefits for the reasons Aaron just discussed. You know, it's clear, as you point out, this industry's been really defined by the inability to stop investing and the difficulty to monetize that investment, and I think now everybody's looking at this 5G, and, frankly, 5G plus, 6G and beyond, as the opportunity to really go get a chunk of that revenue, and enterprise edge is the target. >> And 5G is touching so many industries, and that kind of brings me here into Mobile World Congress. I mean, you look at the floor layout, it's amazing. You got industry 4.0. You've got, you know, our traditional industry and telco colliding. There's public policy. So give us a teaser to Mobile World Congress '23. What's on deck at the show for from Dell? >> Yeah, we're really excited about Mobile World Congress. This, as you know, is a massive event for the industry every year, and it's really the event that the whole industry uses to kick off this coming year. So we're going to be using this, obviously, to talk to our customers and our partners about what Dell's looking to do and what we're innovating on right now, and what we're looking to partner with them around. In the front of the house, we're going to be highlighting 13 different solutions and demonstrations to be able to show our customers what we're doing today and show them the use cases and put it into action, so they get to actually look and feel and touch and experience what it is that we're working around. Obviously, meetings are important. Everybody knows Mobile World Congress is the place to get those meetings and kick off for the year. You know, we're looking at several hundred meetings, hundreds of meetings that we're going to be looking to have across the industry with our customers and partners and the broader community, and, of course, we've also got technology that's going to be in a variety of different partner spaces as well. So you can come and see us in hall three, but we're also going to have technologies kind of spread all over the floor, and, of course, there's always theCUBE. You're going to be able to see us live all four days, all day, every day. You're going to be hearing our executives, our partners, our customers, talk about, you know, what Dell is doing to innovate in the industry and how we're looking to leverage the broader open ecosystem to be able to transform, you know, the network and what we're looking to do. So in that space, we're going to be focusing on what we're doing from an ecosystem perspective, our infrastructure focus. We'll be talking about what we're doing to support telco cloud transformation and then finally, as we talked about earlier, how are we helping the lines of business within our telecoms monetize the opportunity. So these are all different things we're really excited to be focusing on and look forward to the event next month. >> Yeah, it's going to be awesome In Barcelona at the Fira. As you say, Dell's big presence in Hall three. Orange is in there, Deutsche Telekom. Intel's in Hall three. VMware's there, Nokia, Vodafone. You got great things to see there. Check that out and of course, theCUBE, we are super excited to be collaborating with you. We got a great setup. We're in the walkway, right between halls four and five, right across from the Government of Catalonia, who are the host partners for the event. So there's going to be a ton of action there. Guys, can't wait to see you there. Really appreciate your time today. >> Great, thanks. >> All right, Mobile World Congress, theCUBE's coverage starts on February 27th, right after the keynotes. So first thing in the morning, East coast time, we'll be broadcasting, as Aaron said, all week, Monday through Thursday, on the show floor. Check that out at thecube.net. Siliconangle.com has all the written coverage, and go to dell.com, see what's happening there. Have all the action from the event. Don't miss us. This is Dave Vellante. We'll see you there. (upbeat music)

(upbeat music) >> Hey everyone. And welcome to this CUBE Conversation which is part of the AWS startup showcase. Season two, episode four of our ongoing series. The theme of this episode is cybersecurity, detect and protect against threats. I'm your host, Lisa Martin, and I'm pleased to be joined by the founder and CEO of Hunters.AI, Uri May. Uri, welcome to theCUBE. It's great to have you here. >> Thank you, Lisa. It's great to be here. >> Tell me a little bit about your background and the founders story. This company was only founded in 2018, so you're quite young. But gimme that backstory about what you saw in the market that really determined, this is needed. >> Yeah, absolutely. So, I mean, I think the biggest thing for us was the understanding that significant things have happened in the cybersecurity landscape for customers and technology stayed the same. I mean, we tried on solving the same... We tried on solving a big problem with the same old tools when we actually noticed that the problem has changed significantly. And we saw that change happening in two different dimensions. The first is the types of attacks that we're defending against. A decade ago, we were mostly focused on these highly sophisticated nation state efforts that included unknown techniques and tactics and highly sophisticated kind of methods. Nowadays, we're talking a lot about cyber crime gangs, whoops of people that are financially motivated or using off the shelf tools, of the shelf malware, coordinating in the dark web, attacking for money and ransom basically, versus sophisticated intelligence kind of objectives. And in the same time of that happening, we also saw what we like to refer to as explosion of the securities stack. So some of our customers are using more than 60 or 70 different security tools that are generating sometimes tens of terabytes a day of flows. That explosion of data, together with a very persistent and consistent threat that is continuously affecting customers, create a very different environment, where you need to analyze a big variety of data and you need to constantly defend yourself against stuff that are happening all the time. And that was kind of like our wake moment when we understand that the tools that are out there now might have been the right tools a decade ago, they are probably not the right tools to solve the problem now. So yeah, I think that that was kind of what led us to Hunters. And in the same time, and I think that that's my personal kind of story behind it. We used to talk a lot about the fact that we want to solve a fundamental problem. And we, as part of the ideation around Hunters and us zooming in on exactly the areas that we want to focus on in security, we talked with a lot of CSOs, we talked with a lot of industry experts, everyone directed us to the security operation center. I mean the notion that there's a lot of tools and there's always going to be a lot of tools, but eventually decisions are being made by people that are running security operation center, that are actually acting as the first line of defense. And that's where you feel that the processes are woke. That's where you feel that that technology doesn't really meet the rabel, and the rabel doesn't really meet the hold. And for us, it was a very clear sign that this is where we need to focus on. And that set us on a journey to explore red hunting and then understand that we can solve something bigger than that. And then eventually get to where we are today, which is go to market around. So holistic a platform that can help SOC analysts doing the day to day job defending the organizations. >> So you saw back in 2018, probably even before that that the SIEM market was prime and right for disruption. And only in a four year time period, there's been some pretty significant milestones and accomplishment that the team at Hunters has made in that short timeframe. Talk to me about some of those big milestones that the company has reached in just four years. >> Yeah, I think that the biggest thing and I know that it's going to sound like a cliche, but we're actually believing that I think it's the team. I mean, we're able to go to an organization of around 150 employees. All over the world, the course, I think I mean the last time that I checked, like 15 countries. That's the most amazing feeling that you can have. That ability to attract people to a single mission from all over the world and to get them collaborate and do amazing things and achieve unbelievable accomplishment. I think that's the biggest thing. The other thing for us was customers. I mean, think about it like, SIEM it's such a central and critical system. So for us as a young startup from Tel Aviv to go out to Enterprise America and convince the biggest enterprise around the world to rip and replace the the existing solutions that are being built by the biggest software brands out there and install Hunters instead, that's a huge leap of trust, that we are very grateful for, and we're trying to handle with a lot of care and a lot of responsibility. And obviously, I think that other than that, is all of the investors that we were able to attract that basically enabled all of that customer acquisition and team building and product development. And we're very fortunate to work with the biggest names out there, both from a strategic perspective and also from tier one VCs from mainly from the U.S., but from all over the world, actually that are backing us. >> Great customers, solid foundation. Hunters is built for the clouds, is powered by Snowflake. This is AWS built. Talk to me about what's in it for me from an AWS customer perspective. What's that value in it for them? >> Yeah, so I think that the most important thing, in my opinion, at least, is the security value that you're getting from it. Other than the fact that Hunters is a multi-tenant SaaS application running in AWS, it's also a system that is highly tuned and specifically built to be very effective against detecting threats inside AWS environments. So we invested a lot of time in research, in analyzing the way attackers are operating inside cloud environments, specifically in AWS. And then we model these techniques and tactics and procedures into the system. We're leveraging data sets like AWS CloudRail and CloudWatch and VPC Flow Logs, obviously AWS GuardDuty which is an amazing detection system that AWS offer to its customer, and we're able to leverage it, correlate it with other signals. And at the same time, there's also the commercial aspect and the business aspect. I mean, we're allowing AWS customers to leverage the AWS credits to the marketplace to fund same projects like Hunters that comes with a lot of efficiencies also. And with a lot of additional capabilities like I mentioned earlier. >> So let's crack open Hunters.AI. What makes this approach different? You talked about the challenges that you guys saw in the market that were gaps there, and why technology needed to come in from a disruption standpoint. But describe the differentiators. When you're talking to perspective customers, what are those key differentiators that Hunters brings to the table? >> Yeah, absolutely. So we like to divide it into three main pillars. The first pillar is everything that we do with data, that is very different from our competitors. We believe that data should be completely liberated from the analytical layer. And that's why we're storing data in a dedicated data warehouse. Snowflake, as you mentioned earlier, is one of our go to data warehouses. And that give customers the ability to own their own data. So you as a customer can opt in into using Hunters on top of your Snowflake. It's not the only way. You can also get Snowflake bundled as part of that, your Hunter subscription, but for some customers that ability to reduce vendor lock risk on data on your own and also level security data for other kind of workflows is something that is really huge. So that's the first thing that is very different. The second thing is what we like to call security engineering as a service. So when you buy Hunters, you don't just buy a data platform. You actually buy a system, a SOC platform that is already populated with use cases. So what we are saying is that in today's world the threats that we're handling as a SOC, as security operations center professionals are actually shared by 80% of the customers out there. So 80% of the customers share around 80% of the threat. And what we're basically saying is let us as a vendor, solve the detection response around that 80%. So you as a customer could focus on the 20% that is unique to your environment. Then in a lot of cases generate 80% of the impact. So that means that you are getting a lot of rebuilt tools and detections, data modeling to your integrations, automatic investigations, scoring correlations. All of these things are being continuously deployed and delivered by us because we're multi tenant SaaS. And also allowing you again to get this effortless tail key kind of solution that is very different from your experience with your current SIEM tools that usually involves a lot of tuning, professional services, configuration, et cetera. And the last aspect of it, is everything that we're doing around automation. We're leveraging very unique graph technology and what we call automatic investigation enrichments that allows us to take all of these signals that we're extracting from all over the attacks, of say AWS included, but also the endpoint and the email and the network and IOT environments and whatever automatically investigate them, load them into a graph and then automatically correlate them to what we call stones, which are basically representation of incidents that are happening across your tax office. And that's a very unique capability that we bring into the table that demonstrates our focus on the analytical lens. So it's not just log aggregation, and querying and dashboarding kind of system. It's actually a security analytic system that is able to drive real insights on top of the data that you're plugging into it. >> So talk to me, Uri, when you're in customer conversations these days the market is there's so many dynamics and flux that customers are dealing with. Obviously, the threat landscape continues to expand and really become quite amorphous as that perimeter blends. What are some of the specific challenges that security operation center or SOC teams come to you saying, help us eliminate this. We have so many tools, we've probably got limited resources. What are those challenges and how does Hunters really wipe those off the plate? >> Yeah, so I think the first and foremost has to do with the second pillar that I mentioned earlier and that's security engineering. So for most security operations centers and most organizations around the world, the feeling is that they're kind of like stuck on this third wheel. They keep on buying tools and then implementing these tools and then writing rules and then generating noise and then fine tuning the rules. And then testing the rules and understanding that the fine tuning actually generated misdetections. And they're kind of like stuck on this vicious side. And no one can really help because a lot of the stuff that they're building, they're building it in their environment. And what we're saying is that, let us do it for you. Well, that 80% that we've mentioned earlier and allows you to really focus on the stuff that you're doing and even offset your talent. So, we're not talking about really a talent reduction. Because everyone needs more talent in cybersecurity nowadays but we're talking a lot about offset. I mean, if we had a team of five people investing efforts in building walls, building automation, and now three or four of these people can go and do advanced investigations, instant response, threat hunting interval, that's meaningful. For a lot of SOCs, in a lot of cases that means either identifying and analyzing a threat in time or missing it. So, I mean, I think that that's the biggest thing. And the other thing has to do with the first thing that I mentioned earlier, and these are the data challenges. Data challenges in terms of cost, performance, the ability to absorb data sets that today's tools can't really support. I mean, for example, one of the biggest data sets that we're loading that is tremendously helpful is raw data for EDR products. Raw data for EDR products in large enterprises can get to 10, 15, 20 terabytes a day. In today's SIEMs and SOC platforms that the customers are using, this thing is just as prohibited from SOC. They can't really analyze it because it's so costly. So what we're saying is a lot of what we're seeing is a lot of customers, either not analyzing it at all, or saving it for a very little amount of time, account of days. Because they can't support the retention around it. So the ability to store huge data sets for longer period of time makes it something that a lot of big enterprises need. And to be honest, I think that in the next couple of years they would also be forced to have these kind of capabilities, even from a compliance perspective. >> So in terms of outcomes, I'm hearing reduction in costs really helping security teams utilize their resources, the ability to analyze growing volumes of data. That's only going to continue to increase as we know. Is there a customer story, Uri that you have that really, where the value proposition of Hunters really shines through? >> Yeah, I think that one thing comes to mind from those hospitality vertical and actually it's a reference customer. I mean, we can share the name. His name is booking.com. It's also publicly shown on our website. And they think the coolest thing that we were able to do with booking is give them that capability to stay up to date with the threats that they're facing. So it's not just that we saved a lot of efforts from them because we came with a lot of out of the box capabilities that they can use. We also kept them up to date with everything that they were facing. And there was a couple of cases, where we were able to detect threats that were very recently from threat perspective. Based on our ability to invest research time and efforts in everything that is going on in the ecosystem and the feedback that we got from the customer, and it's not a single of feedback. Like we're getting it a lot, is that, without you guys we wouldn't be able to do the effective research and then the implementation of this and the threat modeling and the implementation of these things in time. And walking with you kind of like made the difference between analyzing it and reacting in time and potentially blocking like a very serious bridge versus maybe finding out when it's too late. >> Huge impact there. And I'm kind of thinking, Hunters aim, might be one of the reasons that booking.com's tagline it's booking.com, booking.yeah. Yeah, we're secure. We know if we can demonstrate that to everyone that uses our service. I noticed kind of wrapping things up here, Uri. I noticed that back in I think it was January of 2022, Hunters raised about 60 million in series C. You talked about kind of being in the GTM phase, where are some of those strategic investments? What have you been doing, focusing on this year and what's to come as we round out 22? >> Yeah, absolutely. So, I mean, there's a lot of building going on. Yeah. Still, right. I mean, we're getting into that scale mode and scale phase but we're very much also building our capabilities, building our infrastructure, building our teams, building our business processes. So there's a lot of efforts going into that, but in the same time, I mean, we've being able to vary, to depending our relationship with DataBlitz which is a very important partner of us. And we got some big news coming up on that. And they were a strategic investor that participated in our series C. And in the same time we're walking in the air market which is a very interesting market for us. And we get a lot of support from one other strategic investor that joined the series C, Deutsche Telekom. And they are a huge provider in IT and security in email, other than doing a lot of other things and including T-systems and T-Mobile and everything that has to do with that. So we're getting a lot of support from them. And regardless, I think, and that ties back to what we've mentioned earlier, the ability for us to come to really big customers with the quality of investors that we have is a very important external validation. It's basically saying like this company is here to stay. We're aiming at disrupting the market. We're building something big. You can count on us by replacing this critical system that we're talking about. And sometimes it makes a difference, like sometimes for some of the customers, it means that this is something that I can rely on. Like it's not a startup that is going to be sold two months after I'm deploying it. And it's not a founder that is going to disappear on me. And for a lot of customers, these things happen, especially in an ecosystem like cybersecurity, that is so big with such a huge variety of different systems. So, yeah, I think that we're getting ready for that scale mode and hopefully it'll happen sooner than what we think. >> A lot of growth already as we mentioned in the beginning of the program. Since just 2018 it sounds like from a foundation perspective, you guys are strong, you're rocking away and ready to really take things into 2023 with such force. Uri, thank you so much for joining me on the program, talking about what Hunters.AI is up to and how you're different and why you're disrupting the SIEM market. We appreciate your insights and your time. >> Absolutely. Lisa, the pleasure was all mine. Thank you for having me. >> Likewise. For Uri May, I'm Lisa Martin. Thank you for watching our CUBE Conversation as part of the AWS startup showcase. Keep it right here for more actions on theCUBE, your leader in tech coverage. (upbeat music)

>> Okay. We're back here. theCube and all the action here in Mobile World Congress, cloud city, I'm John ferry, host of the cube. We've got a great remote interviews. Of course, it's a hybrid event here in the cube. And of course, cloud city's bringing all the physical face-to-face and we're going to get the remote interviews. Peter Adderton, founder, chairman, CEO of Mobile X Global. Nicholas Gerrard, founder and CEO of OxyGo. Gentlemen, thank you for coming in remotely onto the cube here in the middle of cloud city. You missed Bon Jovi last night, he was awesome. The little acoustic unplugged and all the action. Thanks for coming on. >> Yeah, thanks for having us. >> All right, Peter and Nicholas, if you don't mind, just take a quick 30 seconds to set the table on what you guys do, your business and your focus here at Mobile World Congress. >> So I'll jump in quickly. Being the Australian, I'll go first, but just quick by way of background, I founded a company called Boost Mobile, which is one of the, is now the fourth largest mobile brand in, in America. And I spent a lot of time managing effort in that, in that space and now launching Mobile X, which is kind of the first cloud AI platform that we're going to build for mobile. >> Awesome. Nicholas. >> So I'm a founder of a company called, Ox Fuel where we do is basically a telecommunity service platform for brands to basically incorporate telecom as part of their services and learn from their customers through what we call a telecom business intelligence. So basically making sense of the telecom data to improve their business across retail, financial services or in-demand economy. >> Awesome. Well, thanks for the setup. Peter, I want to ask you first, if you don't mind, the business models in the telecom area is really becoming, not just operate, but build and build new software enabled software defined just cloud-based software. And this has been a change in mindset, not so much a change so much in the actual topologies per se, or the actual investments, but as a change in personnel. What's your take on this whole cloud powering the change in the future of telco? >> Well, I think you've got to look at where the telcos have come from in order to understand where they're going in the future. And where they've come from is basically using other people's technology to try to create a differentiation. And I think that that's the struggle that they're going to have. They talk about wanting to convert themselves from telcos into techcos. I just think it's a leap too far for the carriers to do that. So I think we're going to see, you know, them pushing 5G, which you see they're doing out there right now. Then they start talking about open rand and cloud and, and at the end of the day, all they want to do is basically sell you a plan, give you a phone attached to that and try to make as much money out of you as they possibly can. And they disguise that basically in the whole technology 5G open rand discussion, but they really, I don't think care. And at the end of the day, I don't think the consumers care, their model isn't built around technology. The model is built around selling your data and, and that's their fundamental principle and how they do that. And I've seen them go through from 2G, 3G, 4G, 5G. Every G we see come out has a promise of something new and incredible. But what we basically get is a data plan with the minutes. Right? >> Yeah, yeah I totally right on. And I think we're going to get into the whole edge piece of what that's going to open up when you start thinking about what, what the capabilities are and this new stakeholders who are going to have an interest in the trillions of dollars on the table right now, up for grabs. But Nicholas wanted to get to you on this whole digital-first thing, because one of the things we've been saying on theCube and interviewing folks and riffing on is: If digital drives more value and there's new use cases that are going to bring on, that's going to enabled by software. There's now new stakeholders coming and saying, Hey, you know what? I need more than just a pipe. I need more than just the network. I need to actually run healthcare. I need to run education on the edge. These are now industrial and consumer related use cases. I mean, this is software. This is where software and apps shine. So cloud native can enable that. So what's your take on the industry as they start to wake up and say, holy shit, this is going to be pretty massive when you look at what's coming. Not so much what's going to be replatformed, but what's coming. >> Yeah, no, I think it's a, it's where I kind join Peter on this. There's been pretty significant, heavy innovation on the carrier side for, you know, if you think about it 30 years or so of like just reselling plans effectively, which is a virtual slice of the network that built. And all of a sudden they started competing against, you know, the heavyweights on the internet. We had, putting the bar really high in terms of, you know, latency in terms of expectation, in terms of APIs, right? We've we've heard about telecom APIs for 15 years, right? It's- nothing comes close to what you could get if you start building on top of a Stripe or a Google. So I think, it's going to be hard for a lot of those companies. What we do with our show is we try to bridge that gap. Right, we try to build on top of their infrastructure to be able to expose modern APIs, to be able to open up a programmatic interface so that innovators like Peter's are able to actually really take the user experience forward and start, building those specialized businesses across healthcare, financial services, and whatnot. >> Yeah, David Blanca and I were on the, on theCube yesterday talking about how Snowflake, a company that basically sits on top of Amazon built almost nothing on the infrastructure. Built on top of it and was successful. Peter, this is a growth thing. One of the things I want to get your thoughts on is you've had experiences in growing companies. How do you look at the growth coming into this market, Peter, because you know, you got to have new opportunities coming in. It's a growth play too. It's not just take share from someone. It's net new capabilities. >> Yeah. Here's the issue you've got with the wireless industry is that there's only a very few amount of them that actually have that last mile covered. So if you're going to build something on top of it, you're going to have to deal with the carrier, and the carrier as out of like a duopoly slash monopoly, because without their access to their network, you're not going to be able to do these incredible things. So I think we've got a real challenge there where you're going to have to get the carriers to innovate. Now you've got the CEO of Deutsche Telekom coming out yesterday saying that the OTT players aren't paying their fair share. Right, and I sit back and go, well, hang on. You're selling data to customers who basically are using that data to use apps and OTT. And now he's saying, well, they should pay as well. So not only the consumer pay, but now the OTT players should pay. It's a mixed message. So what you're going to have to do, and what we're going to have to do as a, as a growth industry is we're going to have to allow it to grow. And the only way to do that is that the carriers are going to have to have better access, allow more access to their networks, as Nico said, let the APIs has become more available. I just think that that's a leap too far. So I think we're going to be handicapped in our growth based on these carriers. And it's going to take regulators and it's going to take innovation and consumers demanding carriers, do it, otherwise, you know, you're still going to deal with the three carriers in your world. >> Yeah, That's interesting about- I was just talking to Danielle Royce, the DR here at TelcoDR. And she said, I was talking about ORAN and there's more infrastructure than needed. She said, oh, it's more software. I don't disagree with her. I do agree with it. But I also think that the ORAN points to, Nicholas, kind of this idea that there's more surface area to be had on the scale side. So standardizing hardware creates a lower fixed cost, so you can get some cost reduction. And then with standardized software, you get more enablement for hardened openness. I mean, open source is already proven. You can still be secure. And obviously Cloud was once said, could never be secure and most, is probably more secure than anything. What's your take on this whole ORAN commodity standardization mission- efforts? >> I think it's a, I mean, it goes along to the second phase, right? Of what the differentiation in telecom was, you know. Early on, specialized boxes that are very expensive. You know, that you, you, you, you get from a few vendors, then you have the transition over to a software. We lower the price, as you were mentioning. It can run on off the shelf hardware. And then we're in the transition, which is what Danielle is, is evangelizing, right. Transition towards the cloud and specifically the public cloud, because there's no such thing as a private cloud really. And, and so up and running is just another, another piece where you can make the Legos connect better effectively and just have more flexibility. And generally the, the, the game here is to also break the agenda when you- from, from the vendors, right? Because now you have a standard, so you don't necessarily need to buy the entire stack from, from the same vendors. You have a lot more flexibility. You know, you've probably followed the same debate that we've all seen, right. With a push against Huawei, for instance. Th-this is extremely hard for an operator, to start ripping out an entire vendor, because most of the time, they, they own the entire stack. But something like ORAN, now you can start mixing and matching with different vendors, but generally this is also a trend that's going to accelerate the move towards the public cloud. >> That's awesome. Peter, I want to get your thoughts because you're basically building on the cloud. And if you don't mind chime it in to kind of end the segment on this one point. People are trying to really get their minds around what refactoring means. And we've been saying, and talking about, you know, the three phases of, of waking up to the world. Reset your business, or reboot. Replatform to the cloud, and then refactor, which means take advantage of cloud enabled things, whether it's AI and other things. But first get on the platform, understand the economics, and then replatform. So the question, Peter, we'll start with you. What does refactoring actually mean and look like in a successful future execution or playbook? Can you share your thoughts, because this is what people want to get to because that's where the value will come from. That's where the iteration gets you. What's your take on this refactoring? >> Yeah, yeah. So I always, I mean, we're in the consumer business, so I'm always about what is the difference going to make for the consumer? So, whether you're, and when you look at refactoring and you look at what's happening in the space. Is what is the difference that's going to, what are the consumers going to see that's different and are they willing to pay for that? And so we can strip away the technical layers and we all get caught up in the industry with these buzzwords and terms, and we get, and at the end of the day, when it moves to the consumer, the consumer just sits there and says, so what's the value? How much am I paying? And so what we're trying to do at MobileX is, we're trying to use the cloud and we're trying to use kind of innovation into create a better experience for the consumer. One way to do that is to basically help the customer, understand their usage patents. You know, right now today, they don't understand that. Right if I asked you how much you paid for your mobile bill, you will tell me my cell phone bill is $150, but I'm going to ask you the next question How much data do you use? You go, I don't know, right? >> John: unlimited. >> And then I'd say why am I started- well you'd say limited, right. I will go. I'd go, I don't know. So I sit back and go, most customers are like you. You're basically paying for a service that you have no clear, no idea what you're getting. And it's designed by the carriers to scare you into thinking you need it. So I think we've got to get away from the buzzwords that we use as an industry and just dumb that down to what, what does that mean for a consumer? And I think that the cloud is going to allow us to create some very unique ways for consumers to interact with their device and their usage of that device. And I think that that's the holy grail for me. >> Yeah. That's a great point. And it's worth calling out because I think if the cloud can get you a 10X value at, at a reduction in costs compared to the competition, that's one benefit that people will pay for. And the other one is just, Hey, that's really cool. I want I'll, I value that, that's a valuable thing. I'll pay for it. So it's interesting that the cloud scale there, it's just a good mindset. >> Yeah. So it's always, I always like say to people, you know, I've spoken a lot to the Dish guys about what open rand is going to do and I keep saying to them, so what's the value that I'm going to get from a consumer. And they'll say, oh it's flexible pricing plans. They're now starting to talk about, okay, what the end product is of this technology. You look at ECM, right? ECM has been around for a long time. It's only now that we're to see ECM technology, get enabled. The carriers fought that for a long, long time. So there's a monumental shift that needs to take place. And it's in the four or five carriers in our counties. >> Awesome. Nicholas, what's your take on refactoring? Obviously, you know, you've got APIs, you've got all this cool software enabled. How do you get to refactoring and how do you execute through that? >> I mean, it's a little bit of a, what Peter was saying as well, right? There's the, the advantage of that point is to be, you know, all our stuff basically lives in the cloud, right. So it's opportunity to, to get that closer, you know, just having better latency, making sure that, you know, you're not losing your, your photos and your data as you lose your phone and yep. Just bet- better access in general. I, I think ultimately like the, the push to the cloud right now is it's mostly just a cost reduction. The back tick, as far as the carriers are concerned, right. They don't necessarily see how they can build that break. And then from there start interacting with the rest of the OTT world and, and, you know, Netflix is built on Amazon and companies like that, right? Like, so as you're able to get closer as a carrier to that cloud where the data lives, this is also just empowering better digital experience. >> Yeah I think that's where the that's, the proof point will be there, as they say, that's where the rubber will meet the road or proof is in the pudding, whatever expression. Once they get to that cost reduction, if they can wake up to that, whoa we can actually do something better here and make m- or if they don't someone else will. Right. That's the whole point. So, final question as we wrap up, ecosystem changeover. Lot more ecosystem action. I mean, there's a lot of vendors here at Mobile Congress, but real quick, Peter, Nicholas, your take on the future of ecosystem around this new telco. Peter, we'll start with you. >> Yeah, I look, I mean, it, it, again, it keeps coming back to, to, to where I say that consumers have driven all the ecosystems that have ever existed. And when I say consumers also to IOT as well, right? So it's not just the B to C it's also B to B. So look to the consumer and look to the business to see what pain points you can solve. And that will create the ecosystems. None of us bet on Uber, none of us bet on Airbnb. Otherwise we'd all be a lot richer than we are today. So none of us took that platform- and by the way, we've been in mobile and wireless and any kind of that space smartphone space for a long time. And we will miss those applications. And if you ask a CEO today of a telco, what's the 5G killer application, that's going to send 5G into the next atmosphere, they can't answer the question. They'll talk about drones and robotic surgeries and all things that basically will never have any value to a consumer at the end of the day. So I think we've got to go back to the consumer and that's where my focus is and say, how do we make their lives better? And that will create the ecosystem. >> Yeah, I mean, they go for the low hanging fruit. Low latency and, and whatnot. But yeah, let's, it's going to be, it's going to be, we'll see what happens. Nicolas your take on ecosystems as they develop. A lot more integrations and not customization. What's your thoughts? >> Yeah, I think so too. I mean, I think going back to, you know, again like 20- 20 years ago, the network was the product conductivity to the product. Today it's a, it's a building block, right? Something that you integrate that's part of your experience. So the same way we're seeing like conversions between telecom and financial services. Right? You see a lot of telcos trying to be banks. Banks and fintechs trying to be telcos. It's, it's a blending of that, right? So it, at the end of the day, it's like, why, what is the experience? What is the above and beyond the conductivity? Because customers, at this point, it's just not differentiated based on conductivity, kind of become just a busy commodity. So even as you look at what Peter is building, right, this, what is the experience above and beyond just buying a plan that I get out of it, or if you are a media company, you know, how do I pair my content or resolve real problems? Like for instance, we work a lot to the NBA and TikTok. They get into markets where, you know, having a video product at the end and people not being well-connected, that's a problem, right? So it's an opportunity for them to bring the building block into their ecosystem and start offering solutions that are a different shape. >> Awesome. Gentlemen, thank you so much. Both of you, both experienced entrepreneurs and executives riding the wave on the right side of history, I believe. Thanks for coming on theCube, I appreciate it. >> Thanks for having us. >> If you're not riding the wave the right way, you're driftwood. And we're going to toss it back to the studio. Adam and the team, take it from here.

(upbeat music) >> Welcome to the Cubes coverage of Mobile World Congress, 2021. We are here in person in Barcelona, as well as remote. It's a hybrid event. You're going to have the physical space in Barcelona for the first time, since 2019 and virtual worlds connecting. I've got a great guest here from Google, Shailesh Shukla, Vice President General Manager of the networking team, Google Cloud. Shailesh, great to see you. Thank you for coming on the Cube for the special presentation for Mobile World Congress. As the edge networking core edge human devices, all coming together, thanks for coming on. >> Thank you so much, John. It's great to see you again. And it's always a pleasure talking to "theCUBE" and I wanted to say hello to everybody from, you know, in mobile world Congress. >> Yeah, and people don't know your background. You've got a great history in networking. You've been there, many ways of innovation. You've been part of directly a big companies that were now known big names are all there, but now we haven't had a Mobile World Congress 2019. Think about that, that's, you know, many months, 27 months gone by, since the world has changed in TelcoOR I got to ask you, what is the disruption happening? Because think about that since 2019, a lot's changed in TelcoOR cloud is scale has happened. You've got the edge developing. It's IT like now, what's your take Shailesh tell us? >> Yeah John, as you correctly pointed out, you know, last 18 months have been very difficult and you know, I'll acknowledge that right upfront for a number of people around the world. Empathize with that now in the TelcoOR and kind of the broader edge world. I would say that the last 18, 24 months have actually been transformative COVID it turns out was a very interesting sort of, driver of completely new ways of both living as well as working right, as we all have experienced. I don't think that I've had a chance to see you live in 24 months. So what we are seeing is the following, number one, number of TelcoORs carriers around the world have started the investment process for 5g right? And deployment process. And that actually changes the game as you know, due to latency, due to all of the capabilities around kind of incredible bandwidth, right? Much lower latency, as well as much higher kind of enterprise oriented capabilities, right? So network slicing as an example, quality of service, you know, by a traffic type and for a given enterprise. So that's number one. Number two, I would say that the cloud is becoming a lot more kind of mainstream in the world, broader world of telecom. What we are seeing is a incredible amount of partnerships between telecom carriers and cloud providers, right? So instead of thinking of those two as separate universes, those are starting to come together. So I believe that over a period of time, you will see the notion of kind of cloud native capability for both the IT side of the house, as well as the network side of the house is becoming, you know, kind of mainstream, right. And then the third thing is that increasingly it's, a lot more about enabling new markets, new applications in the enterprise world, right? So certainly it opens up a new kind of revenue stream for service providers and carriers around the world. But it also does something unique, which is brings together the cloud capabilities, right around elasticity, flexibility, intelligence, and so on with the enterprise customer base that most of the cloud providers already have. And with the combination of 5g brings it to the telecom world. And those, you know, I started to call it as a, kind of the triad, right? The triad of an enterprise, the telecom service provider and the cloud provider, all working together to solve real business problems. >> And it's totally a great call out there on the pandemic. I think the pandemic has shown us coming out of it now that cloud scale matters. And you look at all its successes between work play and how we've all kind of adjusted the cloud technologies. We're a big part of that, those solutions that, that got us through it. Now you've got the edge developing with 5g. And I got to ask this question because when we have CUBE interviews with all the leaders of engineering teams, whether it's in the industry or at customers in the enterprise, and even in the telcos, the modern application teams have end to end visibility into the workload. You start to see more and more of that. You starting to see more open source in everything, right? And so, okay. I buy that. You've got an SRE on the team. You've got some modern developers you're shifting left, you've got Develops, all good, all cloud. However, you're a networking guy. You know this, routing packets across multiple networks is difficult. So if you're going to have end to end visibility, you got to have an end to end intelligence on the networking. How is that being solved? Because this is a critical discussion at here at mobile world Congress. Okay, I buy cloud native, I buy observability, I buy open source, but I got to have end-to-end visibility for security and workload management and managing all the data. What's the answer on the network side? >> Yeah, so that's a great question. And the simple way to think about this is first and foremost you need kind of global infrastructure, right? So that's a given and of course, you know, Google with its kind of global infrastructure and some of the largest networks in the world, we have that presence, right. So that's important. Second is to be able to abstract away that underlying infrastructure and make it available to applications through an set of APIs, right? So I'll give an analogy here just as you know, say 10 years ago, around 10 years ago, Android came into the market from Google in the following way. What it did was that it abstracted away the underlying devices with a simple kind of layer on top of operating system, which exposed APIs not bound. So that application developers can write new applications. And that actually unleashed, you know, it ton of kind of creativity right around the world. And that's precisely what we believe is kind of the next step, as you said, on an end to end observability basis, right? What if you can do an abstraction away from all of the underlying kind of core infrastructure provide the right API the right kind of information around observability around telemetric instead of making, cloud and infrastructure, the black box, make it open, make it kind of visible to the applications, bring that to the applications and let the let a thousand flowers bloom, right? The creativity in each vertical area is so significant because there are independent software vendors. There are systems integrators, they're individual developers. So one of the things that we are doing right now is utilizing open source technologies, such as Kubernetes, right? Which is something that Google actually brought into the market. And it has become kind of the de facto standard for all of the container and modernization of applications. So by leveraging those open technologies, creating this common control plane, exposing APIs, right? For everything from application development to observability, you certainly have the ability to solve business problems through a large number of entities in the systems integrator and the ISV and the developer community. So that's the approach that we're taking John >> I love the Android analogy of this obstruction layer, because at that time the iPhone was closed. It still is. And they got their own little strategy there. Android went the other way. They went open when open abstraction now obstruction layers are good. And now I want to get your thoughts on this because anyone in operating systems knows abstractions are great for innovation. How does that apply to the real world on telco? Because I get how it could add some programmability in there. I get the control plane piece, putting it into the operator's hands. How do you guys see and how do you guys talk about the edge service offering? What does it mean for the telco? Because well, they get this, right. This is going to be in telco cloud developer play. It's going to be a cloud ecosystem play. It's an opportunity for a new kind of telco system. How do you see that rolling out in the real world? >> Great question, John. So the way I look at it, actually even we should take a step back, right? So the confluence of 5g, the kind of cloud capabilities and the edge is, you know, very clear to me that it's going to unleash and significant amount of innovation. We are in early stages. No question, but it's going to drive innovation. So one almost has to start by saying what exactly is edge, right? So the way I look at it is that the edge can be a continuum all the way from kind of an IOT device, an automobile, or an enterprise edge, like a factory location or a retail store, or kind of a bank branch to the telecom edge, which is where the service providers have. Not only their points of presence and central offices, but increasingly a very large amount of intelligent land sites as well, right? And then the kind of the public cloud edge, right? Where, for example, Google has, you know, twenty-five plus kind of regions around the world, 144, you know, pops, lots of CDN locations. We have, you know, a few thousand nodes deployed deep inside service provider networks for caching of content and so on. So if you think about these as different places in the network that you can deploy compute storage and intelligence act, right. And do that in a smart way, right? For example, if you were to run the learning algorithms in the cloud with its flexibility and elasticity and run the inferencing at the edge, very edge at the point of sort of a sale or a point a very consumer standing. Now you suddenly have the ability to create a variety of edge applications. So going back to the new question, what have we seen? So what we are seeing is depending on the vertical, there are different types of edge applications, okay. So let's take a few examples and I'll give you some, a favorite example of mine, which is in the sports arena. So in baseball, right, when you are in a stadium and soon there are people sort of starting to be in stadiums, right. And if pitcher is throwing the pitch, right, the trajectory of the ball, the speed of the pitch, where the batter is, you know, what the strike zone is and all of these things, if they can be in a stadium in real time, analyzed and presented to the consumer as additional intelligence and additional insight, suddenly it actually creates kind of a immersive experience even though you may be in the stadium, looking at the real thing, you are also seeing an immersive experience. And of course at home, you get a completely different experience, right? So the idea is that in sports, in media and entertainment, the power of edge compute and the power of AI ML, right, can be utilized to create completely new immersive experiences. Similarly, in a factory or an automotive environment, you have the ability to use AI ML and the power of the edge and 5g coming together to find where the defects are in a manufacturing environment, right? So every vertical, what we're finding is there are very specific applications, which you can call us kind of killer apps, right in the edge world, that over time will become prevalent and mainstream and they will drive the innovation. They will drive deployment, and they also will drive ultimately kind of the economics of all of this. >> You're laying out, essentially the role of the public cloud and the telco market. I'd love to get your thoughts because a lot of people are saying, "Oh, the cloud, it's all edge now it's still going back to a on premises." This is not the case. I mean, I've been really vocal on this. The public cloud and cloud operations is now the new normal. So developers are there. So I want you to explain real quick, the role of the public cloud in the telecom market and the telecom edge, because now they're working together, you got a distraction, you mentioned that Android leg environment coming, it's going to be an Android, like effect that eked abstraction, you got old ran out there creating these connection points for interoperability, for radio signals and the in transceivers or the edge of the radios. All of this is happening. How is Google powering this? What is the role of public cloud in this? >> Yeah, so let me first talk about generically, the role of public cloud. Then I'll talk about Google, okay. In this, in particular. So if at the end of the day, the goal here is to create applications in a very simple and efficient manner, right? So what do you like if you look put that as the goal, then the public cloud brings, you know, three fundamental things. Number one is what I would call as elasticity and flexibility, right? So why is this important? Because as we discussed earlier, edge is not one place. It's a variety of kind of different locations. If there is a mechanism to create this common control plane and have the ability to kind of have elastic compute, elastic networking, elastic storage, and have this deployed in a flexible manner. Literally if you think about it like an effortless edge is what we are starting to call it. You can move workload and capability and run it precisely where it makes sense, right? Like I said, earlier, training and learning algorithms in the deep cloud, inferencing at the very edge, right? So if you can make that decision, then it becomes very powerful. So that's the first point, elasticity and flexibility that the cloud can bring. Second is intelligence, the whole notion of leveraging the power of data and the power of AI and ML is extremely crucial for creation of new services. So that's something that the public cloud brings. And the third is this notion of right once deploy anywhere, right? This notion of kind of a full stack capability that open kind of developer ecosystem can be brought in. Like we talked about Kubernetes earlier. So if there's a way in which you can bring in those developer and ISV ecosystem, which is already present in the world of public cloud, that's something that is the third thing that public law brings. And Google strategy very simply is to play on all of these. Because Google has incredibly rich deployment experience around the world for some of the largest services on the planet, right? With some of the biggest infrastructure in the networking world. Second is we have a very open and flexible approach, right? So open, as you know, we not only leverage kind of the Kubernetes environment, but also there are many other areas, Guinea native, and so on where Google has brought a lot of open kind of capabilities to the broader market. And the third is the enablement of the ecosystem. So last year, we actually announced 200 applications, from 30 ISV in multiple verticals that we're now going to be deployed on Google cloud in order to solve specific business pain points, right. And building out that ecosystem, working with telecom service providers with systems integrators with equipment players is the way that we believe Google cloud can make a difference in this world of developing edge applications. We are seeing great traction, John, you know, whether it is in the carrier world, you know, carrier such as orange telecom Italia, telus SK Telekom, Vodafone. These have all publicly announced their work with Google cloud, leveraging the power of data analytics, AIML, and our very flexible infrastructure. And then a variety of kind of partners and OEM players in the industry, as an example, Nokia, right. Am docs and Net cracker and many others. So we are really excited in the traction that we are getting, and we believe that public cloud is going to be a key part of the evolution of the telecom industry. >> Shukla it's great to have you on Shailesh Shukla VP and GM of networking at Google cloud. And I would just add to that final point there that open and this Android like open environment is going to create a thousand flowers to bloom those, a new applications, new modern applications, new companies, a new ecosystem in the telco cloud. So, congratulations, thanks for coming on and sharing your insights on Google cloud, you guys are about the data and being open. Thanks for coming on. >> Thank you, John. Great to talk to you, okay. >> It keeps coverage of mobile Congress, Google cloud featured interview here on theCUBE. Really a big part of the public cloud is going to be a big driver. Call it public cloud, hybrid cloud. Whatever you want to call it, it's the cloud cloud and edge with 5g making a big difference and changing the landscape in front of innovation for the telco space. I'm John Farrow, your CUBE host, thanks for watching.

>>Yeah, yeah, hello again and welcome to our last session of the day before we head to the meat. The experts roundtables how T Mobile is building a data driven organization with thought spot and whip prone. Today we'll hear how T Mobile is leaving Excel hell by enabling all employees with self service analytics so they can get instant answers on curated data. We're lucky to be closing off the day with these two speakers. Evo Benzema, manager of business intelligence services at T Mobile Netherlands, and Sanjeev Chowed Hurry, lead architect AT T Mobile, Netherlands, from Whip Chrome. Thank you both very much for being with us today, for today's session will cover how mobile telco markets have specific dynamics and what it waas that T Mobile was facing. We'll also go over the Fox spot and whip pro solution and how they address T mobile challenges. Lastly, but not least, of course, we'll cover Team Mobil's experience and learnings and takeaways that you can use in your business without further ado Evo, take us away. >>Thank you very much. Well, let's first talk a little bit about T Mobile, Netherlands. We are part off the larger deutsche Telekom Group that ISS operating in Europe and the US We are the second largest mobile phone company in the Netherlands, and we offer the full suite awful services that you expect mobile landline in A in an interactive TV. And of course, Broadbent. Um so this is what the Mobile is appreciation at at the moment, a little bit about myself. I'm already 11 years at T Mobile, which is we part being part of the furniture. In the meantime, I started out at the front line service desk employee, and that's essentially first time I came into a touch with data, and what I found is that I did not have any possibility of myself to track my performance. Eso I build something myself and here I saw that this need was there because really quickly, roughly 2020 off my employer colleagues were using us as well. This was a little bit where my efficient came from that people need to have access to data across the organization. Um, currently, after 11 years running the BR Services Department on, I'm driving this transformation now to create a data driven organization with a heavy customer focus. Our big goal. Our vision is that within two years, 8% of all our employees use data on a day to day basis to make their decisions and to improve their decision. So over, tuition Chief. Now, thank >>you. Uh, something about the proof. So we prize a global I T and business process consulting and delivery company. Uh, we have a comprehensive portfolio of services with presents, but in 61 countries and maybe 1000 plus customers. As we're speaking with Donald, keep customers Region Point of view. We primary look to help our customers in reinventing the business models with digital first approach. That's how we look at our our customers toe move to digitalization as much as possible as early as possible. Talking about myself. Oh, I have little over two decades of experience in the intelligence and tell cope landscape. Calico Industries. I have worked with most of the telcos totally of in us in India and in Europe is well now I have well known cream feed on brownfield implementation off their house on big it up platforms. At present, I'm actively working with seminal data transform initiative mentioned by evil, and we are actively participating in defining the logical and physical footprint for future architectures for criminal. I understand we are also, in addition, taking care off and two and ownership off off projects, deliveries on operations, back to you >>so a little bit over about the general telco market dynamics. It's very saturated market. Everybody has mobile phones already. It's the growth is mostly gone, and what you see is that we have a lot of trouble around customer brand loyalty. People switch around from provider to provider quite easily, and new customers are quite expensive. So our focus is always to make customer loyal and to keep them in the company. And this is where the opportunities are as well. If we increase the retention of customers or reduce what we say turned. This is where the big potential is for around to use of data, and we should not do this by only offering this to the C suite or the directors or the mark managers data. But this needs to be happening toe all employees so that they can use this to really help these customers and and services customers is situated. This that we can create his loyalty and then This is where data comes in as a big opportunity going forward. Yeah. So what are these challenges, though? What we're facing two uses the data. And this is, uh, these air massive over our big. At least let's put it like that is we have a lot of data. We create around four billion new record today in our current platforms. The problem is not everybody can use or access this data. You need quite some technical expertise to add it, or they are pre calculated into mawr aggregated dashboard. So if you have a specific question, uh, somebody on the it side on the buy side should have already prepared something so that you can get this answer. So we have a huge back lock off questions and data answers that currently we cannot answer on. People are limited because they need technical expertise to use this data. These are the challenges we're trying to solve going forward. >>Uh, so the challenge we see in the current landscape is T mobile as a civil mentioned number two telco in Europe and then actually in Netherlands. And then we have a lot of acquisitions coming in tow of the landscape. So overall complexity off technical stack increases year by year and acquisition by acquisition it put this way. So we at this time we're talking about Claudia Irureta in for Matic Uh, aws and many other a complex silo systems. We actually are integrated where we see multiple. In some cases, the data silos are also duplicated. So the challenge here is how do we look into this data? How do we present this data to business and still ensure that Ah, mhm Kelsey of the data is reliable. So in this project, what we looked at is we curated that around 10% off the data of us and made it ready for business to look at too hot spot. And this also basically help us not looking at the A larger part of the data all together in one shot. What's is going to step by step with manageable set of data, obviously manages the time also and get control on cost has. >>So what did we actually do and how we did? Did we do it? And what are we going to do going forward? Why did we chose to spot and what are we measuring to see if we're successful is is very simply, Some stuff I already alluded to is usual adoption. This needs to be a tool that is useable by everybody. Eso This is adoption. The user experience is a major key to to focus on at the beginning. Uh, but lastly, and this is just also cold hard. Fact is, it needs to save time. It needs to be faster. It needs to be smarter than the way we used to do it. So we focused first on setting up the environment with our most used and known data set within the company. The data set that is used already on the daily basis by a large group. We know what it's how it works. We know how it acts on this is what we decided to make available fire talksport this cut down the time around, uh, data modeling a lot because we had this already done so we could go right away into training users to start using this data, and this is already going on very successfully. We have now 40 heavily engaged users. We go went life less than a month ago, and we see very successful feedback on user experience. We had either yesterday, even a beautiful example off loading a new data set and and giving access to user that did not have a training for talk sport or did not know what thoughts, what Waas. And we didn't in our he was actively using this data set by building its own pin boards and asking questions already. And this shows a little bit the speed off delivery we can have with this without, um, much investments on data modeling, because that's part was already done. So our second stage is a little bit more ambitious, and this is making sure that all this information, all our information, is available for frontline uh, employees. So a customer service but also chills employees that they can have data specifically for them that make them their life easier. So this is performance KP ice. But it could also be the beautiful word that everybody always uses customer Terry, 60 fuse. But this is giving the power off, asking questions and getting answers quickly to everybody in the company. That's the big stage two after that, and this is going forward a little bit further in the future and we are not completely there yet, is we also want Thio. Really? After we set up the government's properly give the power to add your own data to our curated data sets that that's when you've talked about. And then with that, we really hope that Oh, our ambition and our plan is to bring this really to more than 800 users on a daily basis to for uses on a daily basis across our company. So this is not for only marketing or only technology or only one segment. This is really an application that we want to set in our into system that works for everybody. And this is our ambition that we will work through in these three, uh, steps. So what did we learn so far? And and Sanjeev, please out here as well, But one I already said, this is no which, which data set you start. This is something. Start with something. You know, start with something that has a wide appeal to more than one use case and make sure that you make this decision. Don't ask somebody else. You know what your company needs? The best you should be in the driver seat off this decision. And this is I would be saying really the big one because this will enable you to kickstart this really quickly going forward. Um, second, wellness and this is why we introduce are also here together is don't do this alone. Do this together with, uh I t do this together with security. Do this together with business to tackle all these little things that you don't think about yourself. Maybe security, governance, network connections and stuff like that. Make sure that you do this as a company and don't try to do this on your own, because there's also again it's removes. Is so much obstacles going forward? Um, lastly, I want to mention is make sure that you measure your success and this is people in the data domain sometimes forget to measure themselves. Way can make sure everybody else, but we forget ourselves. But really try to figure out what makes its successful for you. And we use adoption percentages, usual experience, surveys and and really calculations about time saved. We have some rough calculations that we can calculate changes thio monetary value, and this will save us millions in years. by just automating time that is now used on, uh, now to taken by people on manual work. So, do you have any to adhere? A swell You, Susan, You? >>Yeah. So I'll just pick on what you want to mention about. Partner goes live with I t and other functions. But that is a very keating, because from my point of view, you see if you can see that the data very nice and data quality is also very clear. If we have data preparing at the right level, ready to be consumed, and data quality is taken, care off this feel 30 less challenges. Uh, when the user comes and questioned the gator, those are the things which has traded Quiz it we should be sure about before we expose the data to the Children. When you're confident about your data, you are confident that the user will also get the right numbers they're looking for and the number they have. Their mind matches with what they see on the screen. And that's where you see there. >>Yeah, and that that that again helps that adoption, and that makes it so powerful. So I fully agree. >>Thank you. Eva and Sanjeev. This is the picture perfect example of how a thought spot can get up and running, even in a large, complex organization like T Mobile and Sanjay. Thank you for sharing your experience on how whip rose system integration expertise paved the way for Evo and team to realize value quickly. Alright, everyone's favorite part. Let's get to some questions. Evil will start with you. How have your skill? Data experts reacted to thought spot Is it Onley non technical people that seem to be using the tool or is it broader than that? You may be on. >>Yes, of course, that happens in the digital environment. Now this. This is an interesting question because I was a little bit afraid off the direction off our data experts and are technically skilled people that know how to work in our fight and sequel on all these things. But here I saw a lot of enthusiasm for the tool itself and and from two sides, either to use it themselves because they see it's a very easy way Thio get to data themselves, but also especially that they see this as a benefit, that it frees them up from? Well, let's say mundane questions they get every day. And and this is especially I got pleasantly surprised with their reaction on that. And I think maybe you can also say something. How? That on the i t site that was experienced. >>Well, uh, yeah, from park department of you, As you mentioned, it is changing the way business is looking at. The data, if you ask me, have taken out talkto data rather than looking at it. Uh, it is making the interactivity that that's a keyword. But I see that the gap between the technical and function folks is also diminishing, if I may say so over a period of time, because the technical folks now would be able to work with functional teams on the depth and coverage of the data, rather than making it available and looking at the technical side off it. So now they can have a a fair discussion with the functional teams on. Okay, these are refute. Other things you can look at because I know this data is available can make it usable for you, especially the time it takes for the I t. G. When graduate dashboard, Uh, that time can we utilize toe improve the quality and reliability of the data? That's yeah. See the value coming. So if you ask me to me, I see the technical people moving towards more of a technical functional role. Tools such as >>That's great. I love that saying now we can talk to data instead of just looking at it. Um Alright, Evo, I think that will finish up with one last question for you that I think you probably could speak. Thio. Given your experience, we've seen that some organizations worry about providing access to data for everyone. How do you make sure that everyone gets the same answer? >>Yes. The big data Girlfriends question thesis What I like so much about that the platform is completely online. Everything it happens online and everything is terrible. Which means, uh, in the good old days, people will do something on their laptop. Beirut at a logic to it, they were aggregated and then they put it in a power point and they will share it. But nobody knew how this happened because it all happened offline. With this approach, everything is transparent. I'm a big I love the word transparency in this. Everything is available for everybody. So you will not have a discussion anymore. About how did you get to this number or how did you get to this? So the question off getting two different answers to the same question is removed because everything happens. Transparency, online, transparent, online. And this is what I think, actually, make that question moot. Asl Long as you don't start exporting this to an offline environment to do your own thing, you are completely controlling, complete transparent. And this is why I love to share options, for example and on this is something I would really keep focusing on. Keep it online, keep it visible, keep it traceable. And there, actually, this problem then stops existing. >>Thank you, Evelyn. Cindy, That was awesome. And thank you to >>all of our presenters. I appreciate your time so much. I hope all of you at home enjoyed that as much as I did. I know a lot of you did. I was watching the chat. You know who you are. I don't think that I'm just a little bit in awe and completely inspired by where we are from a technological perspective, even outside of thoughts about it feels like we're finally at a time where we can capitalize on the promise that cloud and big data made to us so long ago. I loved getting to see Anna and James describe how you can maximize the investment both in time and money that you've already made by moving your data into a performance cloud data warehouse. It was cool to see that doubled down on with the session, with AWS seeing a direct query on Red Shift. And even with something that's has so much scale like TV shows and genres combining all of that being able to search right there Evo in Sanjiv Wow. I mean being able to combine all of those different analytics tools being able to free up these analysts who could do much more important and impactful work than just making dashboards and giving self service analytics to so many different employees. That's incredible. And then, of course, from our experts on the panel, I just think it's so fascinating to see how experts that came from industries like finance or consulting, where they saw the imperative that you needed to move to thes third party data sets enriching and organizations data. So thank you to everyone. It was fascinating. I appreciate everybody at home joining us to We're not quite done yet. Though. I'm happy to say that we after this have the product roadmap session and that we are also then going to move into hearing and being able to ask directly our speakers today and meet the expert session. So please join us for that. We'll see you there. Thank you so much again. It was really a pleasure having you.

>>Ly from San Diego, California at the cube covering to clock in cloud native con brought to you by red hat, the cloud native computing foundation and its ecosystem Marsh. >>Welcome back. This is the cube live coverage three days wall to wall coverage of CubeCon cloud native con in San Diego. I'm Stu Miniman. My cohost for these three days is John Troyer. And welcome to the program. First of all, from the keynote stage, Heather Kirksey, who is the vice president of community and ecosystem development with the Linux foundation for CNCF part of Linux foundation and from some of the technology behind the scenes joining her, Sandy Pennys are the SVP of strategic engagement at attorney. Thank you so much for joining us. Right. So Heather, this was a really cool demo with a lot of things going beyond the scene. Uh, if people actually go watch an interview we did yesterday, uh, with, uh, the people at red hat talk about, uh, it's a good thing. It was cloud native because there was a brownout cower was lost, had to rebuild the entire thing. Um, and everybody up on stage, you know, the next day, didn't know anything the wiser. So, uh, you know, really cool pot on stage. Uh, you know, talking about 5g global engagement, China mobile, uh, other banks. I like, um, I'm sorry, other mobile providers, uh, like from Canada and from Europe involved in this. Um, give us a little bit of the, the, the foundation view as to, you know, how something like this comes together and how you get participation from, you know, the technology providers, the telco providers. Uh, you know, it takes, it takes a village. >>First of all, you have to be slightly mad. Um, but I mean that's, that's really kind of the premise of open source, right? Is that people come together and they build things together. And so we done some demos in the past, um, where we looked at sort of, you know, the, the modernization of the central office. And so we had had some, you know, some tea, you know, some tapes of folks that had been building things. And then we, you know, we sent out a call basically to the community and said, yeah, we'd like to do another one. And what we're going to try to do is full five G full called native, if you're interested in joining, yo come on. And so it just ended up that basically 15 organizations said, yes, that sounds like something that we would like to prove out. And 80 volunteers across those organizations ended up working on it. >>My understanding was about four months, uh, to, to put all the pieces together, bring us, bring us through kinda, you know, how the stack gets built and. >>Yeah, well I mean, so amongst some of the issues where you have five G itself is fairly new. So we, we started with sort of the complexities of getting equipment, you know, and getting five G radio. You know, we had a partner in China who had a 5g handset that then wanted us to indemnify, you know, all of these things. Uh, to the extent that like we as a nonprofit didn't feel comfortable signing the agreement. So it was, you know, it started actually just, I mean, this was so cutting edge with in terms of the five G aspect that getting equipment was challenging. Um, yeah. And that's before you even get to sort of the challenges of building the stack. So, um, so, you know, it started kind of figuring out what pieces started building things, um, you know, found some yo gaps in Coobernetti's around supporting the, the, the sophistication of networking that we have to do. Um, so we figured out how to work around it for the demo, but what we want to do is start upstreaming some, um, some changes into, into some of the projects there. >>All right, so San Deepa, your company's one of the providers inside here. So tell us what, what drew you into it and how it is living on that bleeding edge was something like five. >>Well, it's, it's absolutely thrilling living on that leading edge. It's exciting, you know, lots of risks. But the payoff yesterday was fantastic. Be able to complete that call on stage. You know, from our perspective, we were invited in fairly early on into the project. Uh, and we're, we're thrilled to be part of it. And as once we understood the scope and what everyone's trying to do, we realized like we're providing the, the SD wan for this project, connecting the public cloud, the private cloud, and we're deploying, uh, using containers, Kubernetes. And we are able to bring the entire thing together by creating one virtual network so that it's seamless and all the underlying infrastructure, that layer, layer two, layer one, the underlay is just completely invisible to be able to transport that call, to do the signaling, to do everything that needs to be done. >>So for us to become part of this project was really powerful for one, for us to just, uh, just work with some of the companies that were there, like the Linux foundation and tell the Nobel all the other big name players that were out there. And so that was, that was amazing. An amazing experience. But then the community itself that came together, like the people that we met, we met them all at the show. It's all phone calls, we met them all at the show and it really is a community filled with love and a real drive and desire, uh, to build something new and different. Right. Sprinkled with a bit of crazy. >>Yeah. >>Well, so I mean this is a, is a great example of how the Linux foundation can be a catalyst here. I mean one of the Linux foundation is so broad, the CNCF is so broad and you're operating in many domains in this being, you know, bringing the telecom world together, being one of them. But I don't know, can you maybe just talk a little bit about the ecosystem and the unique challenges of, I mean there are some times open source approaches that are a little more strongly opinionated. Like this is going to be our, this is, this is what we're working on. This is going to be our stack. This is the projects in our stack. CNCF has a obviously a, a well documented and open, uh, process around bringing projects in and projects graduating. How does that make your >>life harder? >> Yeah. Well, I mostly focus on our networking projects and working with the telecom industry. And yeah, I mean Telekom definitely likes to be opinionated, you know, I mean that's, that's kind of, and our soul. Um, and so that is also is useful because really at the end of the day, interoperability for the type of scale that telecom operators has is very important. Right? It's um, yeah, some of the cloud providers, right? It's up to the people who want to run on them to like work with their API APIs. But the, the telecom operators, they're using all these applications to provide services to their customers so they have a business need to make sure everything really works end to end. And so there's actually an initiative right now between, um, the LF networking projects and the GSM, uh, where we're really trying to, not to prescriptively, because we do also understand that that doesn't know, you're not going to get the exact same pieces of software that worked for every single operator's network or business, but with a lot more sort of UPenn opinion around, you know, what should the cloud platforms, whether they are VM based or container based, what do they look like and how can we start doing things like compliance and verification programs around commercial implementations, whether it is the underlying platform or whether it's the applications on top. >>And so that's the thing that, you know, we're, we're working on right now because at the end of the day, we're really needing to help them accelerate their, their deployments and, um, get that agility. That's the promise of. >>So, Heather, I want to go back to something you mentioned earlier that there were some gaps in Coobernetti's speak to how fast the community rallied around to, you know, allow this, uh, solution to go forward. >>Yeah. So, um, I'll, I mean basically this is what happens when you get a bunch of engineers together, you know, for the demo itself, we weren't going to fork or make our own sort of changes Kubernetes. So we, we did some things to, to tie things together. Probably you've seen SD when I see Rampart. But yeah, one of the, one of the big issues is just being able to expose multiple interfaces. Um, which, you know, in a service writer network you have multiple interfaces, right? Um, fi six support is another big issue. And so being able to expose those natively in Kubernetes or natively just using cloud native, it's something that we're still working on. Um, there, there are a couple of projects that are looking at that um, network service mesh. Uh, you know, maybe there's some different CNI who are beginning to think through that problem. Um, none of them were quite there. So yeah, we didn't want to start forking and writing pseudo Kubernetes code. Um, so we kinda just use some of the tools and the players in place to work around that. But we, what we would love is to upstream that code and to main line. Sure. >>Yeah. So Sandy would love to hear a little bit more about how SD wind fits in the entire multicloud discussion. Um, we were, we had a pop here in San Diego. There's a lab in Montreal and then there is a, a lab in France and we use public, uh, a combination of, uh, the Alibaba cloud in North America and in Europe. And what we had to do is we had to create a way for the phones to reach each other. So we had to do this initial signaling where you do the request and you have to get to all of the different pods to make the, to make the request. So what we did is we put our, um, containers and all the, in all the cloud providers and also in the labs and we were able to create that private network. And that was what allowed for the call signaling to happen. >>And for the actual call to actually be completed from one to handset to the other. Cindy, you're uh, uh, you talked about community, you know, you're an engineer, a stye in our eyes, a word is SDN when a word, I suppose they usually hear more on an enterprise side of the show. Right. And, uh, you know, talk with lots of folks who provide, you know, in, in that space. This is a little bit different, right? As you, I don't know if you've had a chance to wander either in the sessions or on the floor, kind of curious. There is some, a little bit of networking out there, a little bit networking, security and a couple of other, certainly some service mesh stuff. Right. I don't know. What are your thoughts about how this is growing up on the, in this open source world? It's, listen, it's growing up very fast, right? >>That's, that's 100% sure. I mean, the show is, is, is growing like leaps and bounds every year. It's insane. And that, that, that debt, that performance yesterday was in front of, I don't know how many thousands of people, but I mean that was huge and it was amazing. Um, and you're right, you know, normally when you're thinking about this kind of stuff, you're not necessarily thinking about the networking, but at the end of the day, you know, Kubernetes is a platform or a tool. SD wan is a tool. Um, and if you take all of these tools and put them together, you can actually build something wonderful, right? And that's what we did in this project here. We were able to deliver a 5g call and you know, run it everywhere. So I think what's important in the community, even though this is really primarily a developer event and developer show, you are seeing some edge people here, you are seeing some networking people here and people are the awareness of, Oh wait, you know, we need edge and we need networking to actually build, you know, commercializable platforms or products, right. Is, it's that awareness that's just, I think this year at least is really starting to come out. And I think next year it's going to be even more prevalent and you're going to the show me evolve, you know? And that's why where I kind of see it going. >>Yeah. I mean, I think application developers and general tend to think networking is amazing. It just happens to be, they're sort of like plumbing and power. Um, but to actually deliver it is a fairly complicated challenge and it's part of the reason we want to do the demo yesterday was actually to kind of show some of the challenges and to kind of show what it takes to set up a mobile network. So the F we're going to use Kubernetes to do that. They, you know, the developers here would have a little bit more understanding so that when we were like, we need, you know, we need multiple interfaces or we need to be able to address things in a certain way. They, they, they have a better understanding of why so they can help us from the telecom industry, uh, design and build it out. >>Yeah. I guess the last thing is we've had the cube of the open source summit. We've been to the open networking summit. Uh, you know, when you get off the stage, you put, you know, there's so many different open source projects that Dan just give us a view as to how they span across all of these communities to make sure that we don't end up with a lot of fragmented things. How does everything kind of pull together in the networking? All right, so, so many projects across so many sources, how does, how does Linux foundation make sure that we don't just end up with, you know, siloed, uh, you know, places? >>Well, yeah, to be, to be honest, it's a little bit of a challenge because sometimes the reason that we end up with multiple projects serving what looks like similar needs is because there are different technical approaches. And so might be one will work better than the other. I mean, that's kind of the idea of open source that people can try different things. Um, and, uh, we just try to help people have more, less of a not invented here sort of mindset that if there's a good reason, uh, to try a different approach, go for it. And let's see what, what takes root and what flowers. Um, but you know, also other people are doing things, so just because you're not aware of them. So we, you know, there's a lot of stuff around education and, um, sharing of information that we try to do that, that helps with that. But I mean, yeah. >>Heather, Cindy, thank you so much for joining us regulations on, on the demo. A lot of hard work. >>Thank you. I just have to tell you, I feel as though a thousand pound weight has been lifted off my shoulders out, but it was extraordinarily fun to do actually. >>It was fun. Thank you for John Troyer. I'm Stu Miniman getting towards the end of our three days wall-to-wall coverage. They're running for the tee shirts that are left, but we've got a couple more interviews. Thank you for watching the queue.

>>Live from San Francisco. It's the cube covering my groin insight 2019 brought to you by micron. >>We're back at pier 27 in San Francisco. This is the cube, the leader in live tech coverage and we're covering micron insight 2019 I'm Dave Vellante with my cohost David Floyd and this event is kind of interesting. David, it basically intersperses cube interviews with big tent discussions, thought leadership, we've heard from automotive, healthcare and and 5g discussions and no Han is here. He's the vice president and CTO of the emerging business at Erickson. And you were just on a panel. Welcome to the cube. Thanks. Great to be here. You were talking about five G, we're going to talk about five G. so first of all, talking about the emerging business at Ericsson, >>your whole group, you know, so Ericsson, we, you know, 99 a lot of our business today has done what operators emerging business group, we're sort of looking at the intersection of industry, cloud computing, our traditional mobile network operator customers, and how do we, how do we put those together and look for new either products or business models. And really create something new for customers. >>So we tell him when he's talking about five G, everybody gets all excited. Certainly the technology community is excited about it. There's a whole value chain and an ecosystem that's that's pumping right along. The carriers are adopting and the users are just waiting. So what should we know about? >>So I, you know, I think there's a couple of different things. One is from a consumer perspective, you're definitely looking at faster, you know, better. All of the things we've got from the other GS at older things. You know, today, you know, faster downloads of movies. I think what we're, and I'm, I'm in the tech business, not in the prediction business, you know. So I think what we've learned from previous technologies is we almost don't know what the new applications are. We're trying to make the platform as easy as possible for developers to utilize what the network actually has to offer. So I think that's a big part of what we're trying to do. The other part is enhancing what you have today as a consumer is massive, but also industries is a huge pull on 5g. So we talked about industry four. Dot. Zero and really transforming industries and cutting the cables in production lines, allowing monitoring of systems that never happened before. >>A lot of use cases that can be out there. So a, I have a younger son of 22 and I look at my a bill every month. Yeah, I do have him downloading 10 times more data. It doesn't fill me with uh, duty or just the excise to carriers. I mean while we've seen with every, every end. And of course that was the question how much of a down, yeah, how much low is the price going to be on this baffled breeze you go to invest an awful lot. Absolutely. So I mean we're going to see it tens, 10 orders of magnitude cheaper. So even as it is now with 4g, we're seeing a lot of the unlimited plans coming available and so on. I think we're just going to see more of that. And then the question, actually a big question for five G is what will you pay for? >>You know, if we talk about age compute and low latency, if you're a gamer and I can give you X milliseconds of latency versus you know, a two X milliseconds, how much would you pay for that? So I think what we know at the moment is people will pay for that. We don't know exactly how much, and that's where you need the ecosystem and you need to get stuff out there. And actually some of the economic impact is fuzzy. But in thinking past, there's no prologue. But if you think about the other GS as they sort of were adopted, what can we learn from those? And how do you think five G will be different in terms of its adoption and economic impact? Let's say if you look at adoption, I mean just a number of contracts. We have the number of deployments we have globally, just off the charts in terms of where we are with 4g Korea launched and a few months ago, just just before the summer, within two months they had a million 5g subscribers with smart phones in their eyes and two months later they added a second million subscribers. >>I mean for a market to go from zero to that in, in that period of time with smartphones, if we go back to 4g, all of that was with dongles and sort of hotspots on routers, you know, so to jump directly to smartphones, huge adoption, it's going to happen fast. Well what do you, what are the sequence, what's the sequence of events that have to occur for adoption to really take off? >> So obviously you need to build out the networks and the operators are doing that are pretty high speed. You need to have the devices ready and all the devices. Now it's not like you have a 5g only device. It's obviously capable of all the four G things. And then it's better when you have 5g. So the devices are going to come and take and fast. So all your new devices, most of the high end devices have 5g capability already in there. >>Um, and then the networks just getting built out more and more. And then of course the application developers actually understanding how can I take advantage of those new capabilities? And then you'll start to see, okay, wow, you know, I didn't, this wasn't possible before. It's not just a faster download. It's really, there's just new experiences happening >> from a development standpoint. How much access do they have to the technology? Do they have to wait until this is all built out? Obviously not, but, but, but what's the status of sort of the devs? So we're, we're trying to, and we're working with a lot of the ecosystem. We have, we call it the D 15 studio in our Santa Clara office. We're bringing developers in there and really trying to understand, because you know, we talk Telekom as well. So we want to expose things. We want to understand, do you know what variable, if we say quality of service, what does that mean for you? You know, how do you translate that? So, and we're working with, you know, the cloud players where to developers live to some extent to bring in that ecosystem and understand how it all plays together. So >>ahead. Yup. Um, so if really, if you're looking at it longterm, obviously it's going to happen, but the experience is as I go around the States, is that you've got all these different four G three GS edges still in a very, very patchy a level of it. Is this going to be different? Is this going to actually go into different places because there's a big investment that has to be made, a lot of things very close together. Yes, yes. That seems to be a recipe for everything being or right in the cities. But as soon as you go outside the urban areas, it's going to be very patchy. How does that compare, for example, with Elon Musk's idea of a doing stuff from the sky? >>Well, everything comes down to economics. So you know, it's, it's obviously you're going to have denser deployments in the cities, then you are in the countryside and so on. One of the big advantages would 5g is am, and not to get too deep into the technical part, but you can use all the spectrum that's available. And spectrum is super important as we get, you know, when we have lower frequency spectrum, you can cover a hundred miles Wade, one base station as you get to the millimeter wave, which is you get super high bandwidth, then you're add hundreds of meters. Yeah. And so obviously one is more suitable for a rural environment, the other is more suitable for. So for an urban environment, so obviously having those working together in one technology allows you to deploy everything and get the benefits in a much broader area than we had for any of the previous. >>There's choice there in terms of how you deploy or, or leverage the spectrum. So you're saying that the higher performance end of the spectrum, it's gonna require a greater density of other components. And absolutely. When people talk about oil, there's going to be a lot more distributed, you know, pieces of the five G network that has to get built out. So who does that? Who's putting those pieces of the value chain in? So different players, obviously the mobile network operators, the 18 Ts and Verizons of the world are doing a lot of the heavy lifting and know what our support to actually put the, the radios and the towers in place. And then there's an edge compute piece as well, which is different players are putting in that. Um, so, so a lot of that infrastructure has been done. I think one thing that we've been pushing quite a lot, all our install base of radios is um, 5g upgradable via software. >>So that means that a lot of the already installed, uh, radios and infrastructure, you're just softer upgrade, you know, an hour later it's now 5g ready. So I think that's a big piece of basin. Back to your question of how quickly and and can reach all those areas, are there any specific commercial blockers that you see, um, that you're thinking through? I am I, I think the, just understanding some of the more challenging when you look at, if you're deploying edge compute and you have to invest billions and really getting that far out to the edge, I think there's some questions still there. Like I said, how much would you pay for 20 milliseconds versus 15 milliseconds. And that might sound like a lot, but that's a lot of extra infrastructure you would need to put out. So I think that's still being worked true. >>And obviously some of that will happen quicker in a downtown San Francisco than it will in a, you know, middle of Nevada plays well and the others that you've mentioned before, it's unclear what new applications are going to emerge here. And so it's almost like build it and they will come and then we'll figure it out and then we'll figure out how to charge for it. Like you say the gamers, how much will they pay for it? Yeah, so those are some of the uncertainties but they'll shake themselves out. So absolutely. I was a pretty smart about doing. What about micron and the role of memory players and storage players? How will this affect them? Eight say a huge opportunity when you ah, yeah, I mean invest no and Bardy hats. >> Yeah, I think it's a, when you look at the number of devices and, okay, what's the device? >>The devices are smartphone. Well the devices now your car, it's every IOT device and down to your toaster and all the crazy stuff people are talking about too. I mean to every industrial application tool that age, computers. So you're distributing now a lot of different compute memory storage across different parts of the network. So I mean they talked earlier in the panel about phones having terabytes of data. You know, it's in, it's just unimaginable. The amount of data storage. Remember you're going to need in a vehicle, you know, they're looking at terabytes per hour of data and then how much of that should they shift off the vehicle? How much did it keep there? So huge opportunity. >> Well, I'd be willing to pay for, um, some memory in my appliances. They tell me when they're going to break. I just got a new dishwasher and I can program it with my, my remote. I don't want to program. I just want to know that on Thanksgiving morning it was that it works. But in a week before it's going to break, I want to know so I can deal with vending and maintenance. That's a big use case. Can't wait until that happens. The last question, so >>I was going to be, I was following up on that last point you were making. Um, uh, so again, this cost of everything, this, this value that you're going to get out of it. Um, it seems to me that, um, that this is gonna take a long time to push out. Um, and, and before it actually down. And people will actually know whether they can pay for this. And then one thing in particular is there's a lot of resistance in, in the, in the States anyway, to all of these devices being put very, very close, you know, to the, to, to it for example, putting all the devices down, download a row for example, that, that, that seems to be very expensive and, and going to get a lot of reaction from consumers is, is that not the case? >>So I actually, we're not seeing it that much. I mean if you look across the globe, um, China obviously is a slightly unique situation. Massive deployments already happening there. Like I said, Southeast Asia, South Korea being among the, you know, the forefront, big deployments already there. And we're seeing big pull from industries already and the operators here in U S are announcing new cities, you know, every month practically. So they are really full on into this. And to some extent it's, it's really just, there's a capacity need to have the spectrum. They need to make the investments and they're, they're doing it as we speak. >>So I think it depends on me. Why was it a meeting the other day in Boston with a lot of city officials and folks that worked for the mayor's office? They're envisioning Boston, you know, for the next 50 years, smart cities and five G was like, if you did a word cloud 5g was that the number one topic? You know, we talked earlier about sports stadiums. You can see that being, you know, use cases going to be these >>hotspots where it's of very, very high >>of the city in this case in Boston's case are they're going to invest, right? And they're gonna think that's going to be a differentiator for cities. >>You have this amazing infrastructure, you know, five G infrastructure that allows you to take advantage of that, be it just from, they talked about traffic congestion and what the city can do and then what the businesses and the consumers can do in that area that that can end up being a differentiator for innovation companies going there and so on. >>Right. All right. We're going to go before they blow us out. No, thanks very much for coming to the queue very much. All right, great. To have you on. I keep it right there, buddy. We'll be back with our next guest after this short break. You're watching the cube live from micron insight 2019 from San Francisco right back.

>>Live from Copenhagen, Denmark. It's the cube covering Nutanix dot. Next 2019. Brought to you by Nutanix. >>Welcome back everyone to the cubes live coverage of dot. Next Nutanix. We are here in Copenhagen. I'm your host, Rebecca Knight. Along with my cohost Stu Miniman. We're joined by Karen Openshaw. She is the head of engineering at Zen intranet and Justin fielder, the CTO at Zen internet. Thank you both so much for your first timers on the cube. So welcome. We're gonna. We're really excited to have you. Why don't you start by telling our viewers a little bit about Zen internet, who, who you are, what you're all about. >>Yeah, sure. So, um, Zen is um, a UK based where up in near Manchester, um, managed service provider. Um, we turned over this year about 76 million pounds, um, which is, um, a great achievement for us that spout. Um, that's double digit growth we've had for the last few years. So we're really starting to motor as a business. Um, we employ about 550 people. Um, we have about 150,000 customers split across retail, um, indirect. So we have a very big channel business. We have a wholesale business where we sell our infrastructure, um, that then other people productize and put into, um, solutions for their customers. And then we have a corporate business, which is where Nutanix really comes in. Um, so we offer managed services both in networking, um, hosting the value added services that are required to make all of that safe and secure and, um, a solution for a corporate. Great. >>So managed service provider, uh, your company has been around for quite awhile. Predates when everyone was talking about cloud. Maybe give us a kind of the update today as to where you really see yourself fitting. What differentiates your, uh, your, your company in the marketplace? >>So I suppose, um, I mean Karen can add sort of what her team does, but I suppose the, the big difference is Zen is a very people first company. So Richard Tang, our founder, he founded the company nearly 25 years ago. Um, he stated publicly, he's never going to sell it. It's, it's, it's a, it's a very, very people orientated company, which of course has great, um, affinity to Newtanics his own, um, people first values. And fundamentally we believe that we always want to do the right thing for the customer even if that is difficult. Um, and so I still do whatever you want to say about, you know, how you pick up some of the, the, the hardness about keeping up with customers. >>Yeah. So we have customers that come to us asking for things that we don't necessarily sell at the time. And uh, we, we put quite a lot of effort into adapting our products at the time to deliver them what they need. Um, some of those challenging conversations can be about making sure the customer is getting the right product for what they want. So understanding what they need, making sure that we can support them not only in taking that product, but coming onto the product in the first place. And that's what we use a lot of our Nutanix infrastructure for. >>Good. Can you maybe, can you dig us in a little bit? Do you know, what does Nutanix enable for your business that ultimately then has an impact on your ultimate end user? >>It's done two things for us. So the first is our it operations. So we've been on a journey, I guess over the last three, four years, consolidating all our legacy and um, physical 10 onto virtual, uh, services. We've used Nutanix to do that. So with, with collated all of our services, we've got about 90 odd percent of all our legacy services on that it infrastructure now. So operationally it saves us a lot of time, effort, uh, costs, et cetera, much more reliable as well. But conversely to that, we also use it for our, our products offerings as well. So we used to be, um, managed hosting where a customer would come, give us a spec and we'd, we'd go and build a physical server hosted in our data center, host their applications on there, support them with that. We don't really do that anymore. We now use Nutanix as our hosting environment. So we've reduced our environmental footprint, we've reduced the amount of space that we need in a data center. And the power that we put through there again, operating that is, is it's easier for us because we can consolidate where the skills are from in terms of both it ops and in terms of the infrastructure for the managed services as well. >>One of the things that you said Justin, is that you're very people first company and that really fits in well with the culture at Nutanix. Can you, can you riff on that a little bit and just describe what it is to be working so closely with a company like Nutanix and how important it is that your cultures mesh? >>Yeah, sure. Um, I mean Nutanix has been part of Zen for, for many, many years. Um, and you know, we work in Israel, watched this industry for 25 years. Nothing stands still, literally nothing stands still. And therefore whatever you fought was a good idea last year, probably is now the worst possible idea because there's some great new idea. And I think it's that pace of change. And so what we've really found with Nutanix is as, as they've got to know us and we've got to know them and they can see that we're starting to really be able to take some solutions to the market that really resonate the, what they've done is they've literally embedded their people in our company. So we have, um, our systems engineers or account managers, they come up to our offices, they sit down, they understand our people, they understand where we're trying to go, they understand our propositions. >>And this is a journey for Nutanix. I mean Nutanix in the MSP land is not where it really, where they started. They started like Karen just said like we use them. That's actually where we started was Oh my God, I've got a thousand servers or this is just too much. Yeah, it's too much hassle to try and segment it yourself. Um, and it, it, it's that, it's that sort of hypervisor of hypervisors of hypervisors type approach. It just makes it easier. But conversely, it's therefore really important that you work out how take that value proposition to a customer. Because if you can't explain it, cause it's so easy, how do they know where, whether this is going to solve their problems. So that's been a fantastic part. Nutanix, it's really the Nutanix team felt like the Zen team and they're saying that they also feel the same. >>So you know, things like nothing ever goes 100% right. But it's always, you know who to call. They're all work because you've got that personal relationship and that's really important to us. >> It's more than that. So what we found with the Nutanix guys is that they'll help us fix problems that aren't necessarily Nutanix problems as well. So that's something we don't get from any of the, uh, of our suppliers. It's normally, no, that's nothing to do with me. You need to phone someone else, get support on that. It's done. It's guys will, they'll bring in their own experts on that particular combo and they'll support us through that. So that's good. >> At six speaks very much to the partnership that you're saying. They're not just a supplier of a product to you. Um, no, no. When I talked to the customer base, one of the biggest challenges and you know, any company has these days is a really understanding their application portfolio. >>What needs to change, what needs to stay the same, you know, Microsoft pushing everybody to office three 65, you know, changed a lot of companies out there. You know, what do I Salsify, what do I put in managed service provider? What do I just, you know, build natively in the public cloud. Can you bring us through kind of, you know, what you're seeing at your customer base and you know, where, where that does interact with the journey that Nutanix is bringing people on? Yeah, I mean maybe I can say that like the, all of our customers are on a journey, um, and they need help. They seriously need help for the, exactly. That reason that you've said. Um, I mean, this is, this is my, this is my job to understand this stuff. That's, that's what a CTO of an MSP is required to do. Um, the problem is is if you're a CIO of, we were really good in construction, you can revolutionize the construction in C by the application of it, particularly during the sales cycle. You know, the ability to VR walk through, you know, argument or, all of that sort of really cool stuff. >>And then you've got a thousand sub-contractors that you're trying to manage from an it perspective. And that juxtaposition of the problem is really problematic I think for a lot of people. And so what we've done is we said the first step you can do is just take what you've got and get rid of the management overhead. That's the easiest, simplest, straightforward. And some of the Nutanix, the sort of lift and shift capability that has got that, they will go and inspect a work load somewhere else. They will work out what resources are required for it. They will pick it up and then we'll move it. And we've had some fantastic success of our customers. They're, they're, they're our greatest advocates. They just say, Oh my God, it just happened one day it was over that and next day it was over there. Um, and then you can start to analyze what that is, what's happening. >>And that's where we can really add value because this is not as simple as just an application because it's about your security posture. It's about your Dar requirements. It's about what, what your appetite for risk versus reward versus cost. And that's really hard to do when you don't have the simple thing which is there, which is, Oh, that serve, that piece of tin costs me $10,000 and therefore you can work that out yourself. So I think the key to all of this is giving tools to the end users so that the CIO in that company and their it team so that they can make those choices in collaboration with an MSP like us. Um, and that goes back to what you were saying. It's about, you know, when we hit problems, we might not even know there's a problem before we've hit it. And therefore having Nutanix deeply embedded within us is really important to them. Being able to go back to the customer and sometimes to the customer, you actually have to go, what are you doing that isn't going to work in the longterm? >>And, and, and as you said, you also have to provide the value so that the customer understands what they're actually getting to in terms of a customer's future needs are we are living in this multicloud world. How are we, how would you describe the customer mindset and how are you coming in with solutions that work for the customer and then having to break that, break the news to them on occasion that what on earth are you trying to do here? This is not gonna work. >>Yeah, we have a few, um, interesting. I sort of like, okay, are you going or am I going to tell them? You know, and I actually can tell, I always send Karen, I'll be going. He doesn't. Um, I, I think it, it's, and, and this is where I think we weren't really, well, you know, it is about what is going on. Karen. Work with your engineering teams. Try and understand deeply actually what is going, why is it not a good idea to do that? And that's the, that's the thing. Once you're going to explain why most of it, Oh God, thank God for that. Finally someone's telling me why what I'm trying to achieve isn't the best way to do it. Because I think a lot of, a lot of people's just sort of, you know, it's a bit buzzwordy and they just think that they need to do this. And you know, it's, I mean, talk about, you know, the journey we've been through. Just sort of how do we move stuff onto there? What's that for years. I mean, you know, it's a huge amount of work. Carry any, any lessons learned maybe that you could do it for one 50 years. >>Are there any that I could repeat here as practices? Okay. It is, I think one of the biggest challenges is the, the reskilling of your teams. So I'm guessing everybody, first of all, to understand this, this bright new future that you're moving into. And then getting them trained upon it and training is >>not just going and sitting in a classroom. It's going and working on this thing and seeing problems occur and understanding how to fix them. That's the, that's the biggest problem that we, that we probably went through. I guess we want our customers to not have that though. So we, we want them to give us the, their work loads in there. It will solve that for them and that that's where we wanna we want to take it, I think in the future, helping them understand what they can do with cloud. So we, we don't just do private cloud, we do public cloud as well. So we could introduce um, opportunities and concepts from a public cloud perspective as well. Um, that will, that will, AWS is a, is a really good one and we are looking at other providers as well, so we help customers solve their problems, whatever that problem is. >>One of the things that's so salient about Zen internet is that it has a really strong culture. You said it's a people, people first culture, but it's also a very diverse culture. Uh, bringing in multiple perspectives, uh, women in technology, LGBTQ, uh, other races. Can you talk a little bit about what it means to work at a diverse company and how it changes how you think about problems and go about solving, >>solving them? Yeah, I guess it's a good question. I guess working in a company we're not as diverse as we'd like to be. We were not where we're at in terms of balancing out the number of women in the tech roles in particular. Um, and, and the diversity. If we give everybody a voice, which is the main thing, then uh, we will see a more, a more wide range in set of inputs there. So, um, developing our teams, high performing teams, you need that mixture of input there, not just about women by the way. It's about, it's about, we have a private zone network for example, where we try to ensure that diverse diversity and diverse people feel included in what we do as a business and work as well and have an opportunity to have an input into that. So where does it add for us? >>I guess people just think differently when they're from different cultural backgrounds. They're from different, um, different nationalities, different, um, races I guess different sexuality, different gender. They've all got different life experiences. So solving problems is probably the main thing that you get the benefit from that. And this industry is full of people trying to solve problems, um, and bring in diverse teams, not just about women in tech. Cause w we saw three women speaking this morning or the keynote, which was fantastic to see. Um, but it is about the diversity as well. So, uh, innovation is the key there, I guess. And I think, I think it's, it's not just about your staff. Um, if you've got the ability to think differently, that applies for out >>the entire ecosystem. Um, and you, you know, you can, you can take a different view. So we work very closely with the TM forum because you know, that that's sort of our industry and it's the sort of the, the, the whole application stack about how you approach that. And the TM forum of have really done some fantastic research that that now proves that the output is different if you have a diverse input. And that I think for our customers is really different. It's really important because then it's different. We're not one of the big guys. We're not BT, we're not Deutsche Telekom, we're not, you know, we're not one of these people. We think differently. We act differently, we behave differently. We have a different approach and the people first, I mean, you know, that doesn't mean we're, you know, we're, we're just here for a good fun time. >>We're here to drive this business forward, to try to generate profitability that we can reverse back in the business to enable us to get onto bigger and greater things. And we've got a five year plan which will see us, you know, at least double revenues quite happily. And we've very confident now that we can execute that. Assuming we can get that diversity in the business. And it's a huge challenge. It's how do you reach out to those people? How do you use the right language? How do you overcome unconscious bias? Yeah, that's a massive thing and it's great. Again, it Newtanics just resonates with us. Just some of the little stickers around that they are diverse, they've got different representations of people and it shows that someone has fought about that and that will resonate. And it's always the classic thing that, you know, you do something wrong once people remember it forever. You do a hundred things right. People won't even notice it. And that's the, that's the type of approach. So, um, for us, we, you know, we think it's a really exciting bear and it's something that the entire executive at Zen are absolutely focused on is getting this right because we know it will secure off. >>It'll make all the difference. Great. Justin and Karen, thank you so much for coming on the cube. That's great. I'm Rebecca Knight for Stu Miniman. Stay tuned for more of the cubes live coverage of.next from Copenhagen.

live from Vancouver Canada it's the cube OpenStack summit North America 2018 brought to you by Red Hat the OpenStack foundation and its ecosystem partners welcome back I'm Stu minimun here at the OpenStack summit 2018 in Vancouver with my co-host John Troyer happy to welcome to the program a first-time guest Charles Ferlin who's the vice president of business development at nuage networks thanks for joining us thank you for having me all right so the OpenStack show we're always talking about the maturity of it where customers are going with it you're in business development so what one of the one of the things we were discussing from the keynote this morning is the telcos and the service providers and who's doing what and you know who makes up that environment so it gives us your free point what you're seeing as to you know where some of the real action is in this in this marketplace fair enough we've been talking about nav for example for many years as you know but I would say probably since the second half of 2016 that we've started to see some significant large deployment and the service provider service provider paying attention to building up a telco cloud to host their VN nav applications right so so really from the second half of 26 16 2017 we've seen massive deployments of OpenStack with a service provider and a lot of them to host applications to serve their branch office customers yeah that's that's an another motivation for them to deploy this yes so Charles you know we've talked to the 18 t Verizon you know Deutsche Telekom's up there all these big ones but I look at it and say is this an opportunity of 20 global you know you know you know telcos or is do we go down to some of the MSP CSPs however you want to call those service providers a regional one you know they're some of the regional ones that maybe aren't as much telcos or are they where's that line what do you see is kind of the TAM if you will for this space obviously the large service provider will have a piece there but we see a lot of regional customer consuming services from a local provider right they do have either for language reasons for regulation and in governance so we see a lot of them consuming services from a local service provider so an openstack sort of became the building block of these and if the infrastructure for the service provider yeah it's interesting we actually just had a infrastructure as a service company from Australia okay on and I said you know you look at their website it doesn't say OpenStack anywhere they provide cloud offerings so it's one of the things there's all these telcos and service fighters that use it but it's not like they're like we're your preferred distribution of OpenStack it's just part of the plumbing underneath the use cases that that are address buh-bye OpenStack and served by OpenStack really fits well and a lot of the telco space right now yeah so we've seen a lot of growth for virtual private cloud we see a lot of growth for a dynamically deploying application having application residing in the data center or moving closer to the users at the edge for example and these are sort of the use cases that nuage and OpenStack address pretty well well that's an interesting pivot point right I understand as an enterprise technologist why software-defined networking is important right it's important in your stack it's got to be important inside of an open OpenStack but can you talk a little bit about some of these use cases like I hadn't really thought about SD win and how that that really and what architectures and deployments would really kind of mean that they would need to deploy that with some and that's a good point because really NT as the win served as the catalyst for the service providers who start paying attention to deploying an NFV infrastructure before that there was an interest it was a motivation however SD wins be offered of dynamic flexible agile branch office connectivity that allows them to dynamically insert value-added services so yes as the one provided connectivity between the branch office but really where is the service provider are going after is offering Application Firewall DDoS services or URL filtering in all of these applications residing in the data center and all of a sudden as I hold on I cannot have it as the one solution disjoint from my data center OpenStack deployment and this is where the nuage actually served as a connecting to both environment but also this is what served as a catalyst the sd1 deployment sort of a catalyst for for them to start deploying a dynamic infrastructure in today's yes so Charles just on the SD way in piece itself we've seen a lot of activity that bunch of acquisitions in that market what what differentiates nuage in in this space well fair enough we've seen these acquisition as a complement to the strategy that we have taken over the past five years paying off we are from the get-go started to have an end-to-end as the in solution so it's not just about connecting branch office together it's not about just connecting application in the data center it's actually connecting the users in the branch office with the applications in the data center or in the public cloud and what differentiate us the most is that we have the exact same platform the same as the n solution and 2n to connect branch office programming branch routers or programming virtual switches in the data center or bare metal physical service so that is perhaps new our single most biggest differentiator is the capability to have that single policy that singled as the n framework from the users and branch to the data center or public cloud alright you've mentioned bare metal I remember it was funny when the project came out for bare metal of course it's called ironic because most people can't win OpenStack started it was it's a good name in that it was virtualized environment of course today we've got containers starting to go up the stack with kubernetes so we understand why bare metals there what are you seeing in that space and and what what kind of what do you hear from your customers so we we have a lot of traction with ironic actually it's ironic but we do and we did that actually in open Saxony in November we did a Coe presentation with Fujitsu who deployed our k5 infrastructure using nagy networks and ironic integration to roll out on top of that is flexible you can put a platform as a service they can do whatever they want on top of it but the bare amount of provisioning is somewhere we is a we have a couple of large accounts that they have deployed this globally yeah okay are you working with the cotta containers that they have here and whether you are not would love to hear kind of the security story when we talk things everything for bare metal in containers and what you're doing with OpenStack and that's that's perhaps the other the biggest differentiator we have is because we're able to have the single networking policies from a container to or programming the network of a container or a KVM VM or hyper-v or the we have the symbol their single as the end platform and we're able we see all the therefore we see all the traffic in the data pack and we're able to index this into a elasticsearch database right and and in creating an index and set a lot of users to create some thresholds and that is what is perhaps the newest thing at knowledge is the capability now to say hey once those thresholds or cross why don't we reprogram the network dynamically so near realtor in real near-real-time we're actually able to take an action to reprogram the network based on some live feed that's what can information that we're receiving from the the various element that we have program either in the branch office or in a container level okay so today cotta containers is not something you're involved with or I didn't quite that cotta containers from the new high-level project from the the OpenStack foundation I don't know right now but but your customers are using container technology docker and various others we have an integration with kubernetes so we provide CNI they're absolutely involved there and this is how a lot of our customers are using us right now and the customers we're talking about these would often be service providers is that is that correct in the context of containers and kubernetes it would mainly be on the enterprise okay out of an agile type of development where they want to have a there's a lot of developer and they want to have the networking program and the same life cycle as the application project is rolling out and having the micro segmentation meaning that we are able to isolate each one of the project from one another so in if one gets contaminated the other one doesn't and so this is where a lot of the kubernetes and deployment has been on the on the large enterprise okay that makes sense because I'm trying to as a as a person outside the telecom industry but but following kind of the enterprise and OpenStack it's interesting to see this vision of the service providers who are not dumb pipes certainly but through OpenStack and these these the nfe and the services they are able to provision with folks like nuage you know able to provide services so just trying to figure out where the line you know maybe you could draw us a picture of you know what what the modern service provider will be able to provide versus what's still left then for the at the enterprise level depending on which market size analysis analyst you're looking at you know is depends VPN connectivity will be it it varies between two to six to eight to twelve it's a relatively contained small market compared to the applicator to manage applications right manage security that's tenfold that that market race so really as you said the the objective here if the service provider is not to to become a dumb virtual pipe and the ability to dynamically insert some value-added services over the top and this is what having an agile as the when now gives them the capability to say hold on a second I can now start serving a value-added application because my dynamic network is available now and this is this is what is fueling a lot of the OpenStack deployment right now in the datacenter yeah Charles one of discussions we've been looking at the last couple of years is there's OpenStack and then there's containers and kubernetes everything how do you see those go together what are you hearing from customers general discussion here but I'd love to hear some real-world so yeah in the context of ironic as we just mentioned a lot of the time the bare metal servers are actually deployed using OpenStack and what goes on top of it is actually kubernetes right and this is very common and it gives that isolation or its deploying a virtual machine running a pass platform in there right so so actually we do see the OpenStack to be used often to deploy the the infrastructure and program and provision I should say the infrastructure and whatever goes on top it could be kubernetes and work just a very nicely Charles you've been involved with OpenStack for many years I had this is how many OpenStack summits well probably eight and a weight or more yeah how are you seeing the OpenStack community evolved what do you I know you've just arrived which day one here at this summit you know beautiful Vancouver but in terms of the energy of the community the the people who are here it's a little bit smaller this year but it you know we've got people here are actual users and actual deployers so exactly yeah thoughts there so this is perhaps the well we went through a marketing height which is great however what I would say regardless of the event today in general the OpenStack community is a lot more mature it's a lot more stable as well and in the product and the product the technology at the community is more focused around solving real use cases and real problem couple years ago there was a lot of interest a lot of hype you know but it would have solve world world hunger as well right now I think it's very pointed very precise and I'm actually new I was quite proud to be participating in contributing in that community because we're starting to see the technology really addressing key key problems here all right Charles last thing I wanted to ask is the network sits in a very special place when you talk about really the multi cloud world that customers are talking about what are you seeing when it comes to that environment you know how do customers figure out where they put their applications are they moving you know things or is it just kind of a heterogeneous but still complicated world they're still figuring out that's right I mean that it's a very dynamic environment but I would say if I had to draw a conclusion most of the customers are deploying the application on-premise they like to have either for storage either for some of the governance they do I like to have applications on-premise however the multi cloud scenario is often used in large banks to compute or a large organization to compute on a burst capability right the capability to say hey I need to have X compute power available for X time is very appealing for them and this is how most of the deployment of nuage are used right now is having doing the plumbing the virtual plumbing inside a data center and dynamically based on demand the capability to do the same networking policy the same networking extension to one of the public cloud offering is very appealing because it sporadic it's a burst type of scenario yeah especially a lot of those service providers have that direct ability right as well correct correct and it you're right that it can become a little bit complex when you have when you want to to deploy nets with the same that's working policies across on-premise and multiple cloud provider and if you have interim service provider then it becomes a little bit complicated to have to orchestrate all of it and this is where Sdn gives them that hardware abstraction and and maintain the same networking policy well Charles Berlin appreciate the update on nuage and all of your viewpoints from from the customers that you're seeing my pleasure very very much for John Troyer I'm Stu Mittleman back with more coverage here at the open sex I'm at 2018 in Vancouver thanks for watching the Q [Music]

>> Narrator: Live from Munich, Germany, it's theCube, covering IBM, Fast Track Your Data. Brought to you by IBM. >> Welcome to Fast Track Your Data, everybody, welcome to Munich, Germany, this is theCube, the leader in live tech coverage, I'm Dave Vellante with my co-host Jim Kobielus. Dinesh Nirmal is here, he's the vice president of IBM Analytics Development, of course, at IBM, and he's joined by Roland Voelskow, who is the Portfolio Executive at T-Systems, which is a division of Deutche Telekom. Gentlemen, welcome to theCube, Dinesh, good to see you again. >> Thank you. Roland, let me start with you. So your role inside T-Systems, talk about that a little bit. >> Yeah, so thank you for being here, at T-Systems we serve our customers with all kinds of informal hosting services, from infrastructure up to application services, and we have recently, I'd say, about five years ago started to standardize our offerings as a product portfolio and are now focusing on coming from the infrastructure and infrastructure as a service offerings. We are now putting a strong effort in the virtualization container, virtualization to be able to move complete application landscapes from different platforms from, to T-Systems or between T-Systems platforms. The goal is to make, to enable customers to talk with us about their application needs, their business process needs, and have everything which is related to the right place to run the application will be managed automatically by our intelligent platform, which will decide in a multi-platform environment if an application, particularly a business application runs on high available private cloud or a test dev environment, for example, could run on a public cloud, so the customer should not need to deal with this kind of technology questions anymore, so we want to cover the application needs and have the rest automated. >> Yeah, we're seeing a massive trend in our community for organizations like yours to try to eliminate wherever possible undifferentiated infrastructure management, and provisioning of hardware, and Lund management and those things that really don't add value to the business trying to support their digital transformations and raise it up a little bit, and that's clearly what you just described, right? >> Roland: Exactly. >> Okay, and one of those areas that companies want to invest, of course, is data, you guys here in Munich, you chose this for a reason, but Dinesh, give us the update in what's going on in your world and what you're doing here, in Fast Track Your Data. >> Right, so actually myself and Roland was talking about this yesterday. One of the challenges our clients, customers have is the hybrid data management. So how do you make sure your data, whether it's on-premise or on the cloud, you have a seamless way to interact with that data, manage the data, govern the data, and that's the biggest challenge. I mean, lot of customers want to move to the cloud, but the critical, transactional data sits still on-prem. So that's one area that we are focusing in Munich here, is, especially with GDPR coming in 2018, how do we help our customers manage the data and govern the data all through that life cycle of the data? >> Okay, well, how do you do that? I mean, it's a multi-cloud world, most customers have, they might have some Bluemix, they might have some Amazon, they have a lot of on-prem, they got mainframe, they got all kinds of new things happening, like containers, and microservices, some are in the cloud, some are on-prem, but generally speaking, what I just described is a series of stovepipes, they each have their different lifecycle and data lifecycle and management frameworks. Is it your vision to bring all of those together in a single management framework and maybe share with us where you are on that journey and where you're going. >> Exactly, that's exactly our effort right now to bring every application service which we provide to our customers into containerized version which we can move across our platforms or which we can also transform from the external platforms from competition platforms, and onboard them into T-Systems when we acquire new customers. Is also a reality that customers work with different platforms, so we want to be the integrator, and so we would like to expand our product portfolio as an application portfolio and bring new applications, new, attractive applications into our application catalog, which is the containerized application catalog, and so here comes the part, the cooperation with IBM, so we are already a partner with IBM DB2, and we are now happy to talk about expanding the partnership into hosting the analytics portfolio of IBM, so we bring the strength of both companies together the marked excess credibility, security, in terms of European data law for T-Systems, from T-Systems, and the very attractive analytics portfolio of IBM so we can bring the best pieces together and have a very attractive offering to the market. >> So Dinesh, how does IBM fulfill that vision? Is it a product, is it a set of services, is it a framework, series of products, maybe you could describe in some more depth. >> Yeah, it all has to start with the platform. So you have the underlying platform, and then you build what you talked about, that container services on top of it, to meet the need of our enterprise customers, and then the biggest challenge is that how do you govern the data through the lifecycle of that data, right? Because that data could be sitting on-prem, data could be sitting on cloud, on a private cloud, how do you make sure that you can take that data, who touched the data, where that tech data went, and not just the data, but the analytical asset, right, so if your model's built, when was it deployed, where was it deployed? Was it deployed in QA, was it deployed in development? All those things have to be governed, so you have one governance policy, one governance console that you can go as a CDO to make sure that you can see where the data is moving and where the data is managed. So that's the biggest challenge, and that's what we are trying to make sure that, to our enterprise customers, we solve that problem. >> So IBM has announced at this show a unified governance catalog. Is that an enabler for this-- >> Dinesh: Oh, yeah. >> capability you're describing here? >> Oh yeah, I mean, that is the key piece of all of this would be the unified governance, >> Jim: Right. >> which is, you have one place to go govern that data as the CDO. >> And you've mentioned, as has Roland, the containerization of applications, now, I know that DB2 Developer Community Edition, the latest version, announced at this show, has the ability to orchestrate containerized applications, through Kubernetes, can you describe how that particular tool might be useful in this context? And how you might play DB2 Developer Community Edition in an environment where you're using the catalog to manage all the layers of data or metadata or so forth associated with these applications. >> Right, so it goes back to Dave's question, How do you manage the new products that's coming, so our goal is to make every product a container. A containerized way to deliver, so that way you have a doc or registry where you can go see what the updates are, you can update it when you're ready, all those things, but once you containerize the product and put it out there, then you can obviously have the governing infrastructures that sits on top of it to make sure all those containerized products are being managed. So that's one step towards that, but to go back to your DB2 Community Edition, our goal here is how do we simplify our product for our customers? So if you're a developer, how can we make it easy enough for you to assemble your application in matter of minutes, so that's our goal, simplify, be seamless, and be able to scale, so those are the three things we focused on the DB2 Community Edition. >> So in terms of the simplicity aspect of the tool, can you describe a few features or capabilities of the developer edition, the community edition, that are simpler than in the previous version, because I believe you've had a community edition for DB2 for developers for at least a year or two. Describe the simplifications that are introduced in this latest version. >> So one, I will give you is the JSON support. >> Okay. >> So today you want to combine the unstructured data with structured data? >> Yeah. >> I mean, it's simple, what we have a demo coming up in our main tent, where asset dialup, where you can easily go, get a JSON document put it in there, combined with your structured data, unstructured data, and you are ready to go, so that's a great example, where we are making it really easy, simple. The other example is download and go, where you can easily download in less than five clicks, less than 10 minutes, the product is up and running. So those are a couple of the things that we are doing to make sure that it is much more simpler, seamless and scalable for our customers. >> And what is Project Event Store, share with us whatever you can about that. >> Dinesh: Right. >> You're giving a demo here, I think, >> Dinesh: Yeah, yeah. >> So what is it, and why is it important? >> Yeah, so we are going to do a demo at the main tent on Project Event Store. It's about combining the strength of IBM Innovation with the power of open source. So it's about how do we do fast ingest, inserts into a object store, for example, and be able to do analytics on it. So now you have the strength of not only bringing data at very high speed or volume, but now you can do analytics on it. So for example, just to give you a very high level number we can do more than one million inserts per second. More than one million. And our closest competition is at 30,000 inserts per second. So that's huge for us. >> So use cases at the edge, obviously, could take advantage of something like this. Is that sort of where it's targeted? >> Well, yeah, so let's say, I'll give you a couple of examples. Let's say you're a hospital chain, you want the patient data coming in real time, streaming the data coming in, you want to do analytics on it, that's one example, or let's say you are a department store, you want to see all the traffic that goes into your stores and you want to do analytics on how well your campaign did on the traffic that came in. Or let's say you're an airline, right? You have IOT data that's streaming or coming in, millions of inserts per second, how do you do analytics, so this is, I would say this is a great innovation that will help all kinds of industries. >> Dinesh, I've had streaming price for quite awhile and fairly mature ones like IBM Streams, but also the structured streaming capability of Spark, and you've got a strong Spark portfolio. Is there any connection between Product Event Store and these other established IBM offerings? >> No, so what we have done is, like I said, took the power of open source, so Spark becomes obviously the execution engine, we're going to use something called the Parquet format where the data can be stored, and then we obviously have our own proprietary ingest Mechanism that brings in. So some similarity, but this is a brand new work that we have done between IBM research and it has been in the works for the last 12 to 18 months, now we are ready to bring it into the market. >> So we're about out of time, but Roland, I want to end with you and give us the perspective on Europe and European customers, particular, Rob Thomas was saying to us that part of the reason why IBM came here is because they noticed that 10 of the top companies that were out-performing the S&P 500 were US companies. And they were data-driven. And IBM kind of wanted to shake up Europe a little bit and say, "Hey guys, time to get on board." What do you see here in Europe? Obviously there are companies like Spotify which are European-based that are very data-driven, but from your perspective, what are you seeing in Europe, in terms of adoption of these data-driven technologies and to use that buzzword. >> Yes, so I think we are in an early stage of adoption of these data-driven applications and analytics, and the European companies are certainly very careful, cautious about, and sensitive about their data security. So whenever there's news about another data leakage, everyone is becoming more cautious and so here comes the unique, one of the unique positions of T-Systems, which has history and credibility in the market for data protection and uninterrupted service for our customers, so that's, we have achieved a number of cooperations, especially also with the American companies, where we do a giant approach to the European markets. So as I said, we bring the strength of T-Systems to the table, as the very competitive application portfolio, analytics portfolio, in this case, from our partner IBM, and the best worlds together for our customers. >> All right, we have to leave it there. Thank you, Roland, very much for coming on. Dinesh, great to see you again. >> Dinesh: Thank you. >> All right, you're welcome. Keep it right there, buddy. Jim and I will be back with our next guests on theCube. We're live from Munich, Germany, at Fast Track Your Data. Be right back.

>> Announcer: Live from Boston, Massachusetts, it's the CUBE covering OpenStack Summit 2017. Brought to you by the OpenStack Foundation, Red Hat, and additional ecosystem support. >> Welcome back, I'm Stu Miniman. And if I'm sitting on this side of the table with the long hallways behind me, it means we're here for the wrap of the second day. John Troyer's here, day two of three days, theCUBE here at OpenStack Summit. John, I feel like you're building energy as the show goes on, kind of like the show itself. >> Yeah, yeah, getting my footing here. Again, my first summit. It was a good second day, Stu, I think we made it through. We had some fascinating stuff. >> Yeah, fascinating stuff. Before we jump into some of the analysis here, I do want to say you know, first and foremost, big thanks to the foundation. Foundations themselves tend to get, they get beat up some, they get loved some, without the OpenStack Foundation, we would not be here. Their support for a number of years, our fifth year here at the show, as well as the ecosystem here, really interesting and diverse and ever-changing ecosystem, and that fits into our sponsors too. So Red Hat's our headline sponsor here. We had Red Hat Summit last week and two weeks, lots of Red Haters, and now lots of Stackers here. Additional support brought to us by Cisco, by Netronome, and by Canonical. By the way, no secret, we try to be transparent as to how we make our money. If it's a sponsored segment, it lists "sponsored by" that guest here, and otherwise it is editorial. Day three actually has a lot of editorial, it means we have a lot of endusers on the program. We do have vendors, cool startups, interesting people, people like Brian Stevens from Google. When I can get access to them, love to have it here. So big shout out as always. Content, we put it out there, the community, try to have it. Back to the wrap. John, you know we've kind of looked at some of the pieces here, the maturity, you know where it fits in the hybrid and multi cloud world. What jumped out at you as you've been chewing on day two? >> Well, my favorite thing from today, and we talked about it a couple times just in passing it keep coming up, is OpenStack on the edge. So the concept of, that the economics works today, that you can have a device, a box, maybe it's in your closet somewhere, maybe it's bolted to a lamppost or something, but in the old days it would have run on some sort of proprietary chip, maybe an embedded Linux. You can put a whole OpenStack distribution on there, and when you do that, it becomes controllable, it becomes a service layer, you can upgrade it, you can launch more services from there, all from a central location. That kind of blew my mind. So that's my favorite thing from today. I finally got my arms around that I think. >> Okay, great, and we saw Beth Cohen from Verizon was in the day one keynote. We're actually going to have her on our program for the third day. And right, teasing out that edge, most of it, telecommunications is a big discussion point here. I understand why. Telcos spend a lot of money, they are at large scale, and that NFV use case has driven a lot of adoption. So Deutsche Telekom is a headline sponsor of the OpenStack Foundation, did a big keynote this morning. AT&T's up on the main stage, Verizon's up on the main stage, you know Red Hat and Canonical all talk about their customers that are using it. You know, we just talked to Netronome about telecommunications. Everybody here, if you're doing OpenStack, you probably have a telco place because that's where the early money is and it tends to be, there's the network edge, then there's the IoT edge, and some of the devices there. So it was was one of the buzzy things going in and definitely is one of the big takeaways from the show so far. >> Well, Stu, I also think it's a major prove point for OpenStack, right. Bandwidth needs are not going down, that's pretty clear, with all the things you mentioned. Throughput is going to have to go up, services are going to have to be more powerful, and so all these different connected devices and qualities of service and streaming video to your car. So if OpenStack can build a back plan, a data plan for OpenStack that can do that, which it looks like they are doing, right, that's a huge prove point downstream from the needs of a telco, so I think that's super important for OpenStack that it's usable enough and robust enough to do that and that's one of the reasons I think it gets talked about so much. The nice thing is this year compared to my comparisons of previous years of OpenStack Summit, telco is not the only game in town, right. Enterprise also got a lot of play and there's a lot of use cases there too. >> And just to close out on that edge piece, really enjoyed the conversation we had with John and Kendall who had worked on the container space. Talking about the maturation of where Cinder had gone, how we went from virtualized environments to containerized environments. And even we teased out a little bit that edge use case. I can have a really small OpenStack deployment to put it at that edge. Maybe that's where some of the serverless stuff fits in. I know I've been, I tell my team, every time I get a good quote on serverless, let's make a gem out of that, put it out there, 'cause it's early days, but that is one of those deployments where I need at the edge environments, I need something lightweight, I need something that's going to be less expensive, can do some task processing, and both containers and potentially serverless can be interesting there. >> Yeah, I mean, even in our Canonical discussion with the product manager for their OpenStack distribution, right, containers are all over that, right, containers are just a way of packaging, there are some really interesting development pipelines that are now very popular and being talked about and built on in the container space. But containerization actually can come into play multiple points in the stack. Like you said, the Canonical distribution gets containerized and pushed out, it's a great way of compartmentalizing and upgrading, that's what the demo on stage today was about. Also, just with a couple of very short scripts, containerizing and pulling down components. So I think again, my second favorite thing after the edge today was just showing that actually containers and OpenStack mix pretty well. They're really not two separate things. >> Right, and I think containerization is one of those things that enables that multi cloud world. We talked in a number of segments today, everything from Kubernetes with Brian Stevens as to how that enables that. Reminds me at Red Hat Summit last week we talked a lot about OpenShift. OpenShift's that layer on top of OpenStack and sits at that application level layer to allow be to be able to span between public or private clouds and we need that kind of you know that to be able to enable some real multi or hybrid cloud environments. >> Yeah I mean, containers and in fact that Kubernetes layer may end up being the thing that drives more OpenStack adoption. >> Yeah, and the other thing that's been interesting, just hallway conversations, bumping into people we know, you know trying to walk around the show a little bit, as to people that are finally getting their arms around, okay, OpenStack from a technology standpoint has matured and you know they either need it to clean up what was their internal cloud or building something out, so real deployments. We talked about it yesterday in the close though. They're real customers doing real deployments. It's heartening to hear. >> Yeah I mean, one of those conversations, I ran into somebody at a hyperscale company, a friend of mine, and you know they are building out, internal OpenStack clouds to use for real stuff, right. >> But wait, hyperscale, come on, John, we can give away. Is this something we have on our phone or something we, I'll buy and use? >> One of those big folks. >> There's a large Chinese company that anybody in tech knows that's supposed to be doing a lot with OpenStack. We heard definitely Asia, very broad use of OpenStack. Been a theme of the whole show, right, is that outside the US where we tend to talk a lot about the public cloud, OpenStack's being used. An undertone I've heard is certain companies that start here in the United States, it's sometimes challenging for a foreign company to say I'm going to buy and use that, absolutely that is a headwind against a company like Amazon. Ties back to we had a keynote this morning with Edward Snowden and some of those things. What is the relationship between government and global companies that have a headquarters in the US and beyond. >> Yeah I think it's too soon to say where the pendulum, how the far the pendulum is going to swing. I'll be very interested in the commentary for next year to see have we moved away from more of the centralized services dominating the entire marketplace and workload into more distributed, more private, more customizable. For all those reasons, there's a lot of dynamics that might be pushing the pendulum in that direction. >> And one of the things I've liked hearing is infrastructure needs to be more agile, it needs to be more distributed, more modularized, especially as the applications are changing. So I feel like more than previous summits I've been at, we're at least talking about how those things fit together. With everything that's happening with the OpenStack Days, the Kubernetes, Cloud Foundry, Ceph, other open source projects, how those all fit together. It feels like a more robust, full position as opposed to , we were just building a software version of what we were doing in the data center before. >> My impression was the conversation at times had been a little more internally focused, right, it's a world unto its own. Here at this summit, they're definitely acknowledging there's an ecosystem, there's a landscape, it all has to interoperate. Usability's a part of that, and then interoperability and componentization is a part of that as well. >> The changing world of applications. We understand the whole reason we have infrastructure is to run those applications, so if we're not getting ready for that, what are we doing? >> I don't want to put words in their mouth, but I think the OpenStack community as a whole, one of their goals, you know, OpenStack needs to be as easy to run as a public cloud. The infrastructure needs to be boring. We heard the word boring a lot actually today. >> Yeah and what we say is, first of all, the public cloud is the bar that you were measured against. Whether it is easier or cheaper, your mileage may vary, because public cloud was supposed to be simple. They're adding like a thousand new features every year, and it seems to get more complicated over time. It's wonderful if we could architect everything and make it simple. Unfortunately, you know, that's why we have technology. I know every time I go home and have some interaction with a financial institution or a healthcare institution, boy, you wish we could make everything simpler, but the world's a complicated place and that's why we need really smart people like we've gotten to interview here at the show. So any final comments, John? >> No, I think that sums it up. Those are my favorite things for today. I'm looking forward to talking to a lot of customers tomorrow. >> Yeah, I'm really excited about that. John, appreciate your help here. So there's a big party here at the show. They're taking everyone to Fenway Park for the Stacker party. Last year it was an epic party in Austin. Boston's fun, Fenway's a great venue. Looks like the rain's going to hold off, which is good, but it'll be a little chillier than normal, but we will be back here with a third day of programming as John and I talked about. Got a lot of users on the program. Really great lineup, two days in the bag. Check out all the videos, go to SiliconANGLE.tv to check it all out. Big shout out to the rest of the team that's at the Dell EMC World and ServiceNOW shows, be able to check those out and all our upcoming shows. And thank you, everyone, for watching theCUBE. (technical beat)

(upbeat music) >> Narrator: Live from Boston, Massachusetts it's The CUBE covering OpenStack Summit 2017, brought to you by the OpenStack Foundation, Red Hat, an additional ecosystem of support. >> Welcome back, I'm Stu Miniman with my co-host John Troyer. Happy to welcome back to the program. It's been a couple of years but Mark Baker, who is the Ubuntu Product Manager for OpenStack at Canonical. Thanks so much for joining us. >> Oh, you're welcome, it's a pleasure to be back on. >> All right so you said you've been coming to these shows for over six years now. You sit on the OpenStack Foundation. We've been talking this week. There's all that fuzz and misinformation and God what does (faint) say this morning? It's like fear is one of the most powerful weapons out there. Sometimes there's just misinformation out there but for you, OpenStack today where you see it in general and in your role with Canonical? >> Sure so OpenStack is one of the cornerstones of our business. It's certainly a big revenue generator for us. We continue to grow customers in that space, and that mirrors what we see in the OpenStack community. So all of the numbers you'll have seen in the OpenStack survey showed that adoption continues to grow. Sure, there is, I don't know if I want to call it fake news out there but there's definitely a meme is going that okay, OpenStack is perhaps declining in popularity. That's not what we see in adoption. We see adoption continuing to grow, more customers coming onto the platform, more revenue is coming from those customers. >> Yeah Mark any data you can share? We did have we had Heidi Joy on from the foundation to talk about the survey. I mean big you know adoption over 74% of deployments are outside of the US. We talked to Mark and Jonathan this morning. They said well that's where more than 74% of the population of the world lives outside of the US on any trends or data points specifically about a bunch of customers. >> Sure so we we definitely have big customers outside the US. You look at perhaps one of our best well-known is Deutsche Telekom, obviously a global telco that's situated in Europe that's deploying OpenStack. Really at the core of their network and I was going into multiple countries, and we see not only more customers but also those existing customers growing their estate and we've got other engagements as well in the Nordics with Tele2, another telco that has a larger stake too. And increasingly out in Asia too. So we definitely see this as being a global trend towards adoption. >> All right and Mark, there was you know for years, it was okay. How many distributions are there out there? How many do we need on out there? Why do customers turn to Ubuntu when they want OpenStack? >> So the challenge of operating infrastructure is scale. It's not can I deploy it? It's not so much even you know how performant is it? It's really kind of boils down to economics, and a large part of that economics is how are you able to operate that cloud efficiently? We've proven time and time again that a lot of the work that we've put in since the very beginning around tooling, around operations is what allows people to stand up these clouds, operate them at scale, upgrade them, apply patches, do all of those things but operate them efficiently at scale without having to scale the number of staff they require to operate that cloud, yeah. >> I think back to the staff that's been around for at least 15 years is company spent 70 or 80% or even more of their budget on keeping the lights on, running around the data center doing that. Anything you could tell us about OpenStack and how that shifts those economics for the data center? >> Sure, so OpenStack has gone through a typical sort of evolution that many technologies go through and we liken it to Linux obviously, we're a Linux company. In the beginning with Linux many people would build their own distributions, they'd compile their own kernels, they'd make modifications. A lot of the big lighthouse users of OpenStack went through that process. We are seeing the adoption changing now. So people are coming to companies like us with an OpenStack distribution that's off-the-shelf, ready and packaged with reference architectures, proven methodologies for implementing this successfully, and consuming it much more like that. Without that package, this free software can actually be very expensive to operate. So you have to get getting those economics right comes from having those packages for people to be able to deploy, manage it and scale it efficiently on-site. >> So you've been involved with OpenStack throughout the whole evolution. Is there anything you see now and 2017 at this summit? This is my first summit. I'm very impressed as an outsider. Again, we started off talking about what you hear from the outside, talking to people here at the show, people standing up their very first clouds this year, very bullish very kind of conscious of okay this is a, this is not a winner-take-all world. There's a place for OpenStack. >> Mark: Yeap. That's actually very kind of clear and very well fit. Do you see a difference in the customers that are you're working with now in 2017, their maturity level, their expectations than perhaps you did a few years ago? >> So yes certainly, customers have complex and diverse requirements, and so they want to deliver different styles of applications in different ways, and OpenStack is a great way of delivering machines, whether it's virtual machines or container machines to applications and provides a very robust and agile environment for doing that. But other styles of application may require to run natively on Bare Metal. OpenStack can do some of that, and do a lot of that but we're seeing, certainly seeing customers understanding okay, OpenStack has a role, public cloud has a role, container technologies have a role. A lot of these intersect together. Then it's really our objective is to help them whether they're choosing container platforms and OpenStack, whether they're using public cloud to ensure that they're able to manage this in an efficient way to deliver value to their business. >> You talked about operability and we talked with Mark Shuttleworth. He was also, we were marking that Ubuntu, the operating system is by far the majority choice in OpenStack and in a lot of cloud projects. Can you talk a little bit more about operability? Again the traditional dig from outside the project a few years ago science project, hard to use, need to have computer scientists to even get it running, which as a former Linux person myself, I think I find that a little bit insulting. It's rocket science but it's not that, it's not that complicated. >> (faint) Were involved in the beginning. >> That is true. But can you just talk a little bit about operability in terms of getting what you're seeing, in terms of either private cloud or at people standing up, the operations team needed, the maintainability day to day operation, that sort of thing in a modern OpenStack environment? >> Yeah, so OpenStack is becoming, certainly a lot of the enterprise customers that we're working with now is becoming another platform that will sit alongside the VMware. There may be some intersection of that. Our goal is to have common operations. So if I want to deploy applications into containers, I could do that in to Kubernetes or just running on VMware, I could do that on OpenStack, I could do it in public cloud to have common tooling and common operations across as much of the estate as we can because that's where I'll get efficiencies. It's where I'll get smart economics and smart operations. So well definitely, people are looking for those solutions. They know they're going to have diverse environments. They're looking for commonality that runs across those diverse environments and Ubuntu provides a great deal of commonality across. >> Mark, can you speak to Canonical's involvement in some of the projects? I know you have a lot of contributors but where particularly did your company spend the most focus? >> So, OpenStack, the initial challenge with OpenStack was to deliver capability and functionality. Canonical was one of those contributors in the early days. It was helping drive new features, helping drive new capabilities in OpenStack. More or less, we've switched to addressing that operations problem. There are many clouds out there that's stuck on older versions. For OpenStack to succeed as it moves forward, we need to be able to show you can upgrade gracefully without service interruption. We're demonstrating that with customers. So a lot of the work that we've been doing is how we streamline these operations, how we crowdsource, if you like, best practice for operating these clouds of scale to deliver efficient value to the business. >> Oh, another interesting conversation here at the show has been about containers. >> Yeah. >> Both Kubernetes and I know Canonical been involved with with Alex D. So can you talk a little bit about the interrelation of containers with OpenStack and how you're seeing that play out? >> Yes, absolutely so containers is all over OpenStack. We do smile somewhat when people talk about containers being a new thing with OpenStack as we've been deploying OpenStack inside LXD containers for several years now. So many of our customers are running containerized OpenStack today in production but this there's certainly this great intersection of that running Kubernetes on top of OpenStack. For example, we're seeing a lot of interest in that. We deploy, as they say, our OpenStack services in containers to give flexibility around architectural choices. We're very happy to run Canonical's distribution of kubernetes inside of OpenStack, which we do, and say have customers doing that. So there are also people looking at how you can containerize control plane in other ways. We're certainly keeping tabs on that, and you know exploring that with some customers but containers are all across the OpenStack ecosystem. They're not competitive. They're very much sort of building a higher level of value for customers so they have choice in how they deploy their applications. >> All right, Mark anything new this week surprised you or any interesting conversations that you'd want to share? >> So I came into this knowing that there was going to be a lot of discussion around containerized applications in OpenStack and containers perhaps, and the control plane. The thing that has surprised me actually has been the speed with which people are looking at OpenStack for edge cloud. Cloud on the edge, it's kind of a telco thing but cloud on the edge is how I can deliver capabilities and services, infrastructure services in an environment, in a mobile environment, it could be attached to a cell phone mask for example. It's not a traditional big data center but you need to deliver content and data out to mobile devices. So there's a lot of discussion especially today, within the telco community here at OpenStack Summit about how OpenStack can deliver those kinds of capabilities on the edge. That's been interesting and a surprise for me to see how quickly it's come up. >> All right Mark, want to give you the final word as to what you want people taking way of Ubuntu's participation in OpenStack. >> Well, some of this talk about OpenStack you know is it had its day in the sun, there are other things now taking over. You need to I think people out there will need to understand that OpenStack is deeply embedded inside big companies like AT&T, and like Deutsche Telekom. It's going to be there for a decade or more, right. So OpenStack is definitely here to stay. We continue to see our business growing. The number of customers Canonical is working with deploying OpenStack continues to grow. Ubuntu as a platform for OpenStack continues to grow. So it's definitely going to be part of the infrastructure as we roll forward. Yes, you'll see it working more in conjunction with those container technologies and application platforms. Parsers for example but it's here. It's just no longer quite the bright new shiny thing it used to be. It's kind of getting to be part of regular infrastructure. >> All right, well Mark not everything could be as bright and shiny as the Ubuntu orange shirt. So thank you so much for joining us again. We'll be back with more coverage here. 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