>>Live from Seattle, Washington. It's the cube covering Smartsheet engage 2019 brought to you by Smartsheet. >>Welcome back everyone to the cubes live coverage of Smartsheet engage here in Seattle, Washington. I'm your host, Rebecca Knight. Along with my cohost Jeff Frick. We have Chris Marsh on the program. He is a research director of workforce productivity and compliance at four 51 research. Thank you so much for coming on the show. So you have just completed a massive report that really looks at the future of work and, and the premise is that the future of work is changing dramatically because of the rise of digital technology. It's, it's, it's changing the way companies think about employees, the way employees think about their jobs. Give us, give us sort of the high level findings here. >>Yeah. So yeah, a big report took me most of my summer so I kind of hibernated for a good month and a half to do it. Um, and yeah, it crystallizes a lot of our views around how, you know, protest technology and culture coming together to, to ground new ways of working. Um, and I guess the basic premise is that, uh, we all know this pervasive friction across day to day work. I mean we've sort of dysfunctional accepted that as the status quo, but actually we seen a lot of our survey research that it's being regarded increasingly in the upper echelons of management within companies as a priority that needs to be, that needs to be addressed. In fact, we had some survey work, um, that came out of failed recently. It was to base it in line of business decision makers and it was what should IUTs priority be when it comes to transformation initiatives and number one was improving the productivity and collaboration experience. >>Now if you put that in the context of all the other things on its plate, the fact that that's number one when traditionally it hasn't been, it's insignificant. And actually we did the same question, same survey September last year. It was number one then. And that was the first time it blips on the radar. So this is, you know, written up the agenda, exec management, it leadership, um, and now looking at ways to address that pervasive friction. So, I guess the basic premise of, of our thinking is that a lot of the legacy technologies on, I mean, they've led to that friction in some ways, right? So most companies have organized in one way or another around the silos that applicate traditional applications have created. And that's created organizational silos and, and hence all of the friction. But we see a lot of interesting new technology trends and tooling that are allowing people to basically operationalize work in the seams between those legacy systems. So lifting some of the data information and potentially workflow workload out of those systems and having them in a, you know, some of the new types of work platform that we're seeing, you know, which Smartsheet's a good example to actually operate in a much more agile way. And we call that shift one from systems of record, which we kind of understand to what we call systems of delivery. Um, so that two, we'll have a big gravitational effects on the way the rest of the business application landscape evolve. >>So didn't, uh, it, uh, kind of grow up to support the silos that were defined before. There was it, there was always sales, there was marketing, there was the executive suite, there was accounting. Um, and, and the it and the apps grew to be aligned. So do you think now that the actual collaboration apps like Smartsheet can actually pull, can pull the silos of the organization into this more hybrid structure? >>Yeah, I think, I think that it certainly looks like, I think that's what companies want to happen. Um, I think it's still early days. I mean the w the way most companies are set up in know actually has a lineage going back a couple of hundred years. The industrial revolution and mechanization leading to standardization, leading to compartmentalization. And then you have lines of businesses we kind of currently understand it. And that's why this is such an interesting time at the moment because a lot of that is breaking down relatively quickly. Um, and obviously the competing area has been the prime catalyst for that. Um, so yeah, I mean, you know, other things that come out of our survey research, massive appetite from senior managers for more collaboration across departments. Right? So, not just within teams, which in and of itself is a challenge, but across departments. Um, so you know, marketing, speaking more often and more purposefully with finance, legal speaking more often with operations. So there is an appetite for higher order types of, not just collaboration but actually work, design, planning, work, execution, um, not just sitting in those departmental silos. >>What is driving this at this appetite? Because I mean it would seem like it was always there and maybe there's just a recognition that we have the tools and the technology to actually execute or is there something that's actually fundamentally changing about the global world that we're living in? >>Yeah, I mean, so we talk about it in the report about this era of personalization, right? Which is just everything we've seen explode in the consumer domain around technology and the climatization we've all had to new kinds of digital experience and how they are coming into the workforce. People want new people will have expectations when you come to digital experience as part of their day to day work. Um, and so that's one thing. The, obviously the related element to that is that companies need to be much more agile in responding to disruptions in their own market. And this is obviously vertical agnostic now. So if there's one thing that you really need to make sure you're good at in the digital age, it's being agile, right? Spotting the sort of signals in the market, understanding what they mean in terms of customer demand, and then you know, catering to that demand quickly with some kind of new products or service or experience. >>So I think it's that need to be able to respond really quickly because there's so much disruption that technology has brought to us. That means that companies are saying, okay, we can't any longer wait six months for this just project life cycle is work life cycle to, to, to run its course. We need to respond more quickly. We need to organize much more agile. We all need to be on the same page when it comes to what we're supposed to be doing. Right? So there's a big demand for a clear line of sight across work. Um, so I think that's, that's probably where it's coming from. All companies realizing we need to act quicker, respond quicker. >>I'm curious, you know, it took a long time for dev ops to really be accepted as the optimal way to create products. Right. Versus a PRD and an MRD and then a PRD and then we define it and we take these when we build in and shoot, we miss the market. Right. It changed in terms of actually running the business though. I mean, do you have any kind of point of view on how long it will take for people to figure out that yes, we can make micro adjustments on our strategy based on speed, competitive threats, but at the same time I've got to be executing on some of these longer term objectives as well, which I would imagine would be a push back on that, on that technique. >>Yeah. I mean it will take as long as the technologies need to have to emerge to support companies really operating in that kind of agile way. Um, I mean one of the things we talk about, um, is the, what we call the three A's, right? So the imperative to be agile operationally, I think there's growing realization that that means that there needs to be tooling to support more autonomy, which is the second, a while more autonomy for more of the workforce to do higher order types of thing. So rather than having the centralized teams of process specialists or you know, technical experts, that needs to be more capability in the tooling, the everyday tooling for, for people to design work and execute on it. But that really is dangerous if you don't have the alignment piece, which goes back to kind of what you were saying about we can't just have a distributed set of teams who are going off and doing their own thing. >>There needs to be alignment back to strategy. There needs to be alignment potentially back to governance and compliance and there needs to be alignment potentially also to work that's adjacent but relevant. It's happening in other teams maybe in other departments. So I think that's really the sweet spot. How do you balance those three things? Um, which is driving a lot of the new interesting technologies that we're seeing emerge. But you know, we're still in relatively early days I think. Um, so you know, give it some time to, to play out. There's different layers of abstraction I think in software that that needs to happen for organizations to really be able to operate in that agile way. There's resource management, this planning, this process automation. A lot of these things have been resident really in discrete kinds of tooling, but the broadly being democratized and Smartsheet's actually a good example of the type of company that's beginning to offer those kinds of capabilities. Workforce wide to Smartsheet users where as they were may, may be previously just to preserve certain types of specialists. User >>I want to ask about what you, what this means for the individual employee in terms of it sounds as though he or she will be more empowered to do more and execute a but also expected more of a moral be expected of that employee in terms of what his or her skill levels are. And then I also want to ask what you're seeing here at Smartsheet engage that is most interesting to you, particularly as it relates to the report. >>Yeah, I mean, I think, I mean, I guess it's inevitable that more will be expected of employees, but I think, you know, in a, in a sense what we're seeing is the balance of power shift, not in an absolute terms, but, and, and you know, relative to how, how it's looks historically towards the employee. So at definite strand of inquiry amongst our clients and four or five, one has been how do we create an employee engagement narrative, right? There's growing realization that we've talked about customer experience for a long time, but we've, we've, we've neglected the idea of an employee experience. Um, so more companies are realizing that happy employees tend to be the more productive ones. So how do we introduce the right combination of tooling technologies and then compensation and then career opportunities to allow people to feel more engaged and empowered so that they can do those higher order kinds of things. Um, and this, yeah, this is, this is happening in a very kind of organic way. So, um, you know, I, I don't see this as companies saying, you know, you need to now achieve more. It's a little bit more, we need to provide you with the ability to achieve more. That's really the role of anybody who's making a decision around technology and an enterprise at the moment. >>But it's interesting because the, because the company has so much more data than they had before on kind of execution and some of the demos in the, in the keynote in terms of what are utilization, how many hours are you applying to this task? So it almost feels like there's more of a, in a treating people like a resource versus treating people like people. And I'm just curious how that, you know, kind of place, cause you, you want to do that, you want to measure, you want to know how your resources are allocated. At the same time there they're people, they're not machines and they're motivated as people and that's how you keep them or lose them a lot of times is the people part, not necessarily the job or the tasks. So how does, how does that map end? If I'm aggressive and I'm feeling good, yeah I like doing more but there's probably a lot of people that aren't necessarily up for that. I mean there's been a lot of all of >>'em talk in this conference already. Um, but more broadly in, in other forums of, um, the implications of more data in the context of machine learning and artificial intelligence, the degree to which, you know, by automating things that may previously have been done manually, is that going to upset people? I think on the whole, um, you know for a lot of types of work that may be Smartsheet is enabling, that's not so much of a concern cause you'll see here from their users very engaged, very enthusiastic. They want to get as much value in leave, which out of the platform was possible because they realized that's allowing them to do things that previously hadn't. But there is that sort of dichotomy of um, at what point do we automate things and not give you a choice in the fact that that's been automated. But I think these guys and another, the industry broadly is, is very conscious of that. So where you see all the kind of data being leveraged to do intelligent recommendations, intelligent notifications, there's going to be a wary eye on doing that without either an optin aware. An optin maybe isn't required, at least having permission from the end user to accept the implications of whatever's being recommended to do. So. I think on the whole, you know, people are sort of trying to figure out what that balance, >>what do you think this means for the war on war for talent? Because, I mean, this is the, this is the topic that the technology industry in particular, it's really grappling with, particularly when there are so many, uh, high level skills that are needed skills in, uh, AI and ML and other kinds of specialized technology. How do you, how do you put your, your findings in that context? >>Yeah, I mean it's, it really came on the agenda, this theme, um, couple of years ago, if not a little bit sooner than that as, as a really strategic issue. And in fact we see that in our own survey research where we asked the question to, um, employees across the workforce manage non-managerial to C suite and it was, you know, strategically one, what one thing do you need to improve on? And it was, um, uh, it was basically recruiting, developing and managing talent. And that's a head of, you know, everything else, like improving our, um, product differentiation, improving our customer experience, um, coming up with a strategy that's more fit for purpose, right? It was all about talent and people and managing people. So it's definitely risen up the agenda. I mean, I think one of the things that companies definitely, uh, beginning to think about is how to um, increase the acquisition of skills in the existing workforce and their way that's quicker than the way that's being done now. >>So actually one of the other areas we cover in our research is the shift from like traditional learning management systems, which have been kind of compliance oriented. You need to do this course or training because we need to show that you've done it to the kind of new generation of Alec speeds. We're learning experience platforms which provide much more agile ways for people to understand skills gaps and take on those skills. So I think that's gonna be a big driver actually of of the agile ways of working that we're talking about. But also how people address talent. The talent was, if you can't find that externally or you can't find enough externally, um, you can look internally of course, to existing employees and make sure that they have the platform to, to acquire new skills. >>And it's almost by a rule, you can't find it externally. Cause right now, just the, the, just not that much labor out there to go get, it's just so competitive. So you've got to develop a lot of that inside. >>Yeah. Yeah. I mean, um, and it's not just sort of technical skills, it's other kinds of skills. Right. Um, but I think there's a, I think there's a nascent appetite amongst a lot of the workforce just to do that from a career progression point of view. Right. If you know, and I think that's one of the implications of companies trying to find ways to be more operationally agile, manage resources and more kind of agile ways. You know, it might be the case that people who maybe wouldn't be considered for a particular role, um, might now be considered because they re they, you know, saw that there was a capacity problem, a resource problem. They learnt the skill they can be assigned to that kind of project. Whereas previously maybe lines of department lines of business prevented that visibility into who has skills across the workforce. >>That's interesting. Do you have a point of view about kind of workforce transformation and you're giving a talk tomorrow how to avoid the Frankenstein workforce experience just for effective workplace transformation. But it's an interesting play that digitally transform your people to digitally transform your business. People talk about doing it to the business, but they don't talk about doing it to the people. I talk about the workflows and the customer engagement. You're taking it down, you know, start at the base, start at the bed. >>Well this is, I mean this is a, a lot of the reasons as to why companies like Smartsheet came about. I mean digital transformation I think is a kind of narrative has done a good job of, of making companies realize they need to change and they need to change quickly. Technology is a big enabler of that, but it's tended to be kind of top down way of thinking about it. It's tended to be sort of, do you have like a center of excellence? Do you have a technology council? How do we sort of transform from core outwards? It's not really been grassroots from the bottom up, but increasingly tooling like Smartsheets enabling that to happen. Right. How do you get people really engaged using new kinds of tooling to do higher order things? How do you connect that with work that's being done elsewhere? So it's a much more bottom up movement. How I think about workforce transformation and digital transformation has been, and I think more more people are cutting onto the fact that that's the way you need to think about it. >>What's your number one advice for an executive who doesn't have time to read the 47 pages? >>Yeah, I mean I guess it goes back to the, to to maybe the um, those three A's I was talking about earlier. I think my, you know, certainly progressive companies, but I think it's mainstreaming that companies are realizing they need to be more agile. Um, you know, in a broad brush and obviously depends on the context that company, who their customers are and what they're trying to achieve. Um, but really I think it should be a consideration, especially when thinking about workforce tooling and like knowledge worker tooling. To what degree is that giving more autonomy to those people to do higher order things and but also, you know, again, can you tie that back to your goals as a company, right? Because we've had certain technologies in the past of decade that have created a bit of a wild West, right? People go off and do different things and then there's, there's a lack of visibility, a lack of line of sight back to strategy. But if you get the sweet spot in your technology choices between do that, do they help us be operationally agile? Are they giving people a highroad, you know, more ways to do higher order work. Can we tie that back in the way that we need to? Then I think you're at least thinking about it in the right way. >>Really analogous to shadow it is. As you're sitting here talking about kind of the ground swell up of people finding tools to enable them to do their job better and get around kind of the hierarchy that existed in got in their way before his son. You know, there's a lot of parallels to what happened there before. Finally the corporates figured out, okay, we actually need to do dev in public cloud. There's a lot of advantages, et cetera, etc. >>Yeah, there is, but it's kind of like a legitimate version of shadow it. Shadow it was like we call it, we don't like the tools we've been given. No, we don't have them. Let's go and find ones. Yeah. >>Right. Right >>now it's like the ones that are enterprise grade happens to be the ones we also are using. Right. So that's, that is the super interesting, um, sort of wave that companies like Smartsheet carrying these tools fundamentally appeal and they have lots of evidence that are appealing virally. >>Well, I mean the fact that you can collaborate with people outside your company on your license for free and I think Mark said 50% of their users are people that are outside of the organization of the licensee. That's a pretty, pretty, I don't want to say Trojan, uh, strategy, but certainly certainly feels like, you know, a great way to permeate, which I think back like at last, Ian with the way they got started with, you know, a $10 10 seat license and, and again, AWS and some of these early kind of backdoor ways in to deliver real value that people were willing to put the credit card down. Yeah. Right. >>But you know, I mean, so I guess the challenge for Smartsheet and others are as he became a more enterprise grade platform, how do you keep that user appeal? Right. Cause that could obviously be one scenario which has more features, more complication actually more difficult to use, more complex. These guys are very conscious of it. Others in that sort of environment are very conscious of it. Um, but yeah, I mean the whole can do thing which um, Anna talked about this morning in the keynote. It's interesting. It's like a really interesting sort of democratized way of talking about power users that we kind of used to talk about the sort of folks that have that technical ability. And they're the ones that drive some kind of work initiative. Um, you know, platforms like Smartsheet and others are giving more people the ability to be that power user. And that's, that's kind of cool. >>Awesome. Great note to end on. Thank you so much for coming on the show, Chris. Thanks for having me. I'm Rebecca Knight for Jeff Frick. Stay tuned. You're watching the cube.

>> Live from Bellevue, Washington it's theCUBE covering SmartSheet ENGAGE '18. Brought to you by SmartSheet. >> Welcome back to theCUBE, we are continuing our coverage live from Bellevue, Washington. We're at SmartSheet ENGAGE 2018. I'm with Jeff Frick here. This is the second annual ENGAGE event. Huge, doubled from last year. We've had a great day so far, Jeff, of execs from ShartSheet, customers. We're now excited to welcome an analyst from the 451 Group, Chris Marsh, the Research Director for WorkFresh Productivity and Compliance; welcome to theCUBE! >> Thank you very much. >> So we have, as I was saying, this is the second annual event, some of the stats that Mark Mader, our CEO, shared in the keynote this morning, there are over 1100 companies represented here at the event, a couple thousand people, 20 countries. We've had some very enthusiastic SmartSheet customers, SmartSheeters themselves talking about this tool that's designed for the business user, that's not designed for the citizen developer, people that don't even need to know what API stands for. So talk to us about your role at 451, but then we'll kind of get into project management, program management, and some of the trends and the changes that you're seeing there. >> Sure, yeah, so, so I've had the workforce productivity compliance research practice in 451, so as a team of analysts, we cover, essentially, productivity software, right? So the different tools that members of the workforce are using to get work done. So in addition to work management companies like SmartSheet, we also look at collaboration tools, digital workspaces, we cover the content management landscape, and we cover content creation, asset creation tools as well, so, really the focus for my team is to give perspectives on how the future of work is evolving, but really what those technology and dependings of that are. >> Such a busy space. You've picked a good area to specialize in. So how should people think of it? How should they categorize it, because from the outside looking in, a lot of the tools are very similar, you know, there's some overlap, some not overlap, there's some places where they can work together. Ya know, how should leaders be thinking about approaching this opportunity, 'cos you talk a lot about, you know, that's a great place to find untapped competitive advantage, but it seems to be very, kind of, confusing to the outsider. >> Yeah, it's a super interesting space, and it's probably more interesting than it's ever been. I think for many of us, it was, to be frank, kind of not interesting, right? There's lots of kind of legacy tools that people were struggling to figure out how to do new kinds of work with. >> Beyond email! (chuckles) >> Exactly, yeah, yeah. >> Was there anything beyond email 10 years ago? Yikes! >> Exactly, I mean we as a, I think, a research team find ourselves looking as much of intersections of those five areas that we cover as much as we go deep in them, for the very fact that, you know, it's a space that's going through a lot of innovation, a lot of disruption, and vendors and segments are learning from one another. Then, of course, we have, you know, broad, kind of transversal trends brought by technologies like AI and machine learning. Beginning to have more conversations around things like Block Chain, people beginning to talk about what may be some of the use cases are around AR, VR, and the kind of mixed-reality type technologies. So, you know, lots of innovation, lots of disruption. Um, in terms of what business leaders should be looking for, it obviously depends on what they're trying to do in their workforce. I think one of the big shifts that we're seeing is, um, you know, the sort of decentralization of ownership over more complex types of work to business users, right, whereas, I think, in a lot of companies, traditionally there are centralized teams of process specialists or project management folks, and, you know, tools have kind of mediated the relationship between those centralized, you know, teams and business users; where increasingly those tools are appealing to those business users. So in the panel moderation I did this morning, I showed some statistics around, you know, users of tools like SmartSheet, and it's not the type of people we would have seen using this type of tool four or five years ago. It's leaders were then legal teams, finance teams, HR teams, marketing teams, operations teams-- so that's sort of reflective of a broad shift in productivity software of, you know, virality in terms of how these tools enter businesses, right? Lots of organic adoption and it kind of runs contrary to how a lot of enterprise technology gets sold into enterprises, which is gone a little bit more top down or into specific buying centers. Increasingly, it's going in sort of the grass roots. People are finding new use cases for technology, and it sort of spreads from there, so, yeah, it's a super hot space right now. >> So one of the things we talk about is every place we go, right? Digital transformation and innovation, everybody wants more. And it seems pretty simple to say, but hard to do, that if you get more people more data, the tools to process it, and then the power to do something, that that just can unlock a tremendous amount of untapped innovation and execution and efficiency out of a company. That said, that's easier said sitting here than done. So are you seeing, you know, kind of a continual trend towards, you know, pushing down the data, pushing down the tools, and pushing down the authority to execute decisions? >> Yeah, I think so. And actually, the work management space is a very good example of that, right? So, um, you know, for some companies culturally that's not going to come very easy, because they just culturally may have a more sort of top-down kind of culture. But I think digital transformation for everyone, essentially means more agility, more speed, you know, more quickness in how work is executed and how it's designed. And that almost inevitably means that those closest to the delivery of the work are the ones that actually have the power to design the work in the first place and can, rather than sort of relying on IT for everything and/or central teams somewhere. So, it is a broad shift, but again, it comes, to your point, it comes more easily for some companies and some industries than others. >> And we talked about that with a number of the people from SmartSheet as well as users, that this is a massive cultural shift. I think Mark Mader, the CEO, this morning was telling us a quick anecdote of a 125-year-old oil and gas company, >> Yeah. >> That is, talk about, you know, probably really married to a lot of legacy processes and ways of thinking, not just tools, and how SmartSheet probably started in, you know, one function within the organization, probably, you know, quite low, and it started, to your point before, go viral, and we started, we started to hear a number of stories from PayPal, Sodexo, how this virality that you talk about is really kind of transforming from the bottom up. But that cultural change is essential. >> The cultural change is essential, I mean, in some cases it's just being led by the fact that that's happening anyway, right? Because, you know, gone are the days when IT chooses the tools, provisions them, and, you know, there's an awareness of what's going on in the environment. There are, and it's not just the work management space, we also look at sort of, workflow automation tools. A lot of these tools are, you know, going into a company grass roots, there are then potentially hundreds if not thousands of work processes or workflows that are created on these tools before IT even figures that out, right? Which is not necessarily an ideal scenario, but it's increasingly, you know, one of the patterns that we're seeing in enterprises, so. It's a big cultural shift, but um, there's a certain amount of push and pull here. Some companies that realize that are looking proactively to give effect to it. Other people are going to be pulled, to be frank, to the fact that there are tools that enable new kind of work patterns, new styles to happen, and they almost have to get on board with that, so. So obviously you want to strike a balance, I think, somewhere in between of being the catalyst for those kind of new things to happen whilst making sure there is still the kind of centralized oversight that's required for you to maintain control over your overall technology estate, but also so that you can make sure the technologies are aligning to your strategic goals. So it's a delicate balance. >> And there's these pretty big forces at play here. There's a term that 451 Group has recently coined called a liquid enterprise. >> That's right, yeah. >> Liquid; I think of fluidity, you mentioned agility, we've heard nimbleness today, um, talk to us. What, by definition, is the liquid enterprise, and how are you helping customers to embrace it and maybe not fight the force, because the forces of pull are stronger and better; but what does that mean? >> Yeah, so liquid enterprise, I mean, you've encapsulated it very well, right? So it's all about, you know, when we speak of digital transformation, you almost always end up to about business agility. So in some ways, liquid enterprise is just our way of giving a little bit more flavor to what business agility looks like in the kind of digital age. So our kind of view is that, you know, a lot of the companies that we kind of laud now as those really interesting companies like the AirBnB's and the Uber's, those with kind of, massively scalable infrastructure and then a very simple UI. We think that whole pattern of what the, kind of, digital enterprise will look like is one that's much more able to fluidly marshal it's different resources in a way that allows them to respond much more rapidly to changes in their own market conditions, right? Because one of the things, obviously, that digital is doing is changing user behavior to user requirement. So your ability, as a company, to respond very quickly to that is becoming, you know, a primacy in most companies, and a big part of how we think about the liquid enterprise is the fact that companies will actually be able to change their own organizational structure. Not just what they offer to a market, not just the tools that enable them to do that, but actually, they'll begin to sort of re-tesselate their own organizational design, to enable that to happen. So, you know, we see early indicators of technologies that are beginning to allow companies to think in that way. I think for most companies, liquid enterprise is aspirational right now, but I think, certainly, it's a pattern a lot of companies are trying to tact towards. >> So, I'm just curious, you talk about culture as a competitive advantage. And how much of these tools are culture enablers to make that possible? How much of it are just critical, because if you don't have that culture you're going to lose? How much of it is tied to, kind of, the consumerization of IT, where again, your workforce has an expectation of the way apps work based on their interaction with Amazon and their interaction with Google and those types of things? >> Very much driven by the consumerization of IT trend. I mean, often, increasingly what we see happen in the consumer realm ends up happening in some kind of expression in the enterprise realm sooner or later. So, yeah, that's very much it. One of the other things we talk about in our research is the kind of hierarchy of employee motivation, right? So we kind of have this way of thinking about, you know, what companies need to do and what technologies need to enable to really satisfy that end user experience. I think in the productivity software space, you know, it's probably not hyperbolic to say that most tools really only satisfy end users, right? We have lots of tools, including lots of modern SAAS tools, that actually, you know, may have good usability, but aren't particularly flexible. There sort of better, more scalable versions of a lot of legacy tools. So we see this kind of passage towards tools actually doing things like, you know, decentralizing the ability to create workflows, so that, you know, business users, including non-managerial folks, can actually design work, and how that work actually happens, right? So there's a big element there in terms of motivation in your role, you know, actually making an impact, having that recognized and all of those kinds of things, which is driving a more, sort of, engaged relationship between people and technology, so we only see that continuing. And, the work management space in SmartSheet's very good examples of that. There's lots of conversations you can hear and engage where people are discussing, you know, what they're doing with their tool that they created themselves, some kind of local business team that has redesigned a certain process that is allowed better business value to be created; and they're the ones that are going to take credit for that. I think that trend is only going to accelerate. So again, from an enterprise perspective, embracing that, helping catalyze that, but again, having the ability to have central oversight over that kind of local team-based execution, it is obviously very important. >> What about just kind of the competition from my desktop? You know, what apps are open while I'm working all day, and you know, we all wish if you're driving an app company that it's your app that is on top, but the reality is many, many apps open all the time. So do you see that evolving, do you see that aggregating, do you see a couple of kind of uber apps over the top of these integrations that you'll be doing your primary workplace, or is it just kind of horses for courses depending on the types of things that you do in your day-to-day job? >> Really good question, I mean, I think one of the background trends we've seen, especially with SAAS, is just the growth and the overall enterprise application estate. Right, so just more apps. And obviously catalyzed also by end users having positive experiences in consumer apps, and then being used to choosing the way that they do things, like that, that is transitioning into the enterprise environment, as well, so. I don't envisage that the total number of apps is going to decrease, but very good question as to, you know, whether we get consolidation. Time will tell, but I think, you know, to my point earlier, we spend a lot of time looking at intersections that cross existing segments, because, each segment is really transforming. And you see lots of examples of customers here at ENGAGE using SmartSheet as a displacement tool for other ones that they previously were using. They find the automation of SmartSheet a way to sort of disintermediate other tools that they were using. We're certainly seeing some of that, whether that means the total number of applications decreases, I don't know, because we're still yet to see play out lots of cool, new, innovative technologies that will obviously give rise to new kinds of applications. Question is out as to whether it will mean further apps, but we certainly seeing a changing in the, in the sort of preference for tools based on what new ones we're enabling. >> And I would imagine in very short order, the application of AI and machine learning behind the scenes in all these apps, is also going to change the UI experience dramatically, as more and more and more of the processes are automated on the back-end, there's more kind of smart suggestions as to what to do or completely automated processes. So even the face of the most popular apps today, I would imagine you see significant change with the application of AI and machine learning. >> Yeah, I would think so. One of the, sort of, big trends here, listening to customers and listening to some of the key notes, is, you know, the shift that comes with companies trying to make from low value work to high value work, so all of that kind of granular and manual work we're having to do is so most existing applications; people just want to abstract their way. They don't want to be doing that anymore, they want to be focusing on, um, sort of resource management, team coordination, creative ideation, they want to focus on strategy execution, they want to focus on things like, you know, risks to the business, actions that they need to take, decisions that they need to make, they don't want to be doing the whole, um, who did this, when did they do it, what do I need to do now, they don't want to be sort of manually moving information from applications, they don't want to be doing sort of manual reconciliations of data, and that kind of thing. >> Right. >> So um, heh, so yeah, the kind of low value to high value work is only going to be accelerated by AI and ML, to the point where we're beginning to see much more contextual work. So the ML is the basis on which work can be surfaced contextually to end users. So that is sort of automating the abstraction of that low value work, and that's hugely exciting, because that offers a whole new paradigm for how we interact with applications, what that end user experience is. Imagine, you know, sort of going into your office loading up your computer, opening up an application, and it surfaces to you what you need to focus on that day. >> Right. >> That's where a lot of productivity application vendors are trying to get to. >> That's the dream, right there. >> Not here is the application, you decide where you need to focus, it's the kind of, these are the things you really need to put your time in. I mean, that's pretty exciting. And that's what a lot of the companies would want. >> Well even, a certain CRN company that's got a large tower in San Francisco, why do I have to put the city and the state and the zip code, I mean, we have so far to go, can't I just put the zip code in and it fills in the city and the state, and those little, you know, simple things that take a lot of time and these are the kind of data entry tasks that just drive people bananas, and discount the value, the fundamental value of the tool, because you just get stuck in a data entry mode, or a double entry mode. It's this crazy opportunity that we still have in front of us to make improvements. >> Yeah, I think, huge opportunity, obviously. But it's not quite so easy as that, I think, really it's kind of how I would talk about it. You know, AI and ML will inevitably have a transformative impact on enterprise software; I don't think anybody would dispute that. But it does rely on large data sects, against which you have to train your algorithms and your models, and that takes time for individual companies to build that data sect. They need enough work in there, they need enough people, enough workflows in there, to generate those data sects so that they will actually be useful, right? So, it's going to take a bit of time to play out. But yeah, it's going to be very impactful in the longer term. >> Well Chris, thanks so much for stopping by theCUBE and sharing your insights on this new, emerging term of the liquid enterprise, we appreciate that. >> Pleasure, thanks very much. >> For Jeff Frick, I'm Lisa Martin, you're watching theCUBE live from SmartSheet ENGAGE 2018. Stick around, Jeff and I will be right back with our next guest. (electronic music)

>>Ly from San Diego, California at the cube covering to clock in cloud native con brought to you by red hat, the cloud native computing foundation and its ecosystem Marsh. >>Welcome back. This is the cube live coverage three days wall to wall coverage of CubeCon cloud native con in San Diego. I'm Stu Miniman. My cohost for these three days is John Troyer. And welcome to the program. First of all, from the keynote stage, Heather Kirksey, who is the vice president of community and ecosystem development with the Linux foundation for CNCF part of Linux foundation and from some of the technology behind the scenes joining her, Sandy Pennys are the SVP of strategic engagement at attorney. Thank you so much for joining us. Right. So Heather, this was a really cool demo with a lot of things going beyond the scene. Uh, if people actually go watch an interview we did yesterday, uh, with, uh, the people at red hat talk about, uh, it's a good thing. It was cloud native because there was a brownout cower was lost, had to rebuild the entire thing. Um, and everybody up on stage, you know, the next day, didn't know anything the wiser. So, uh, you know, really cool pot on stage. Uh, you know, talking about 5g global engagement, China mobile, uh, other banks. I like, um, I'm sorry, other mobile providers, uh, like from Canada and from Europe involved in this. Um, give us a little bit of the, the, the foundation view as to, you know, how something like this comes together and how you get participation from, you know, the technology providers, the telco providers. Uh, you know, it takes, it takes a village. >>First of all, you have to be slightly mad. Um, but I mean that's, that's really kind of the premise of open source, right? Is that people come together and they build things together. And so we done some demos in the past, um, where we looked at sort of, you know, the, the modernization of the central office. And so we had had some, you know, some tea, you know, some tapes of folks that had been building things. And then we, you know, we sent out a call basically to the community and said, yeah, we'd like to do another one. And what we're going to try to do is full five G full called native, if you're interested in joining, yo come on. And so it just ended up that basically 15 organizations said, yes, that sounds like something that we would like to prove out. And 80 volunteers across those organizations ended up working on it. >>My understanding was about four months, uh, to, to put all the pieces together, bring us, bring us through kinda, you know, how the stack gets built and. >>Yeah, well I mean, so amongst some of the issues where you have five G itself is fairly new. So we, we started with sort of the complexities of getting equipment, you know, and getting five G radio. You know, we had a partner in China who had a 5g handset that then wanted us to indemnify, you know, all of these things. Uh, to the extent that like we as a nonprofit didn't feel comfortable signing the agreement. So it was, you know, it started actually just, I mean, this was so cutting edge with in terms of the five G aspect that getting equipment was challenging. Um, yeah. And that's before you even get to sort of the challenges of building the stack. So, um, so, you know, it started kind of figuring out what pieces started building things, um, you know, found some yo gaps in Coobernetti's around supporting the, the, the sophistication of networking that we have to do. Um, so we figured out how to work around it for the demo, but what we want to do is start upstreaming some, um, some changes into, into some of the projects there. >>All right, so San Deepa, your company's one of the providers inside here. So tell us what, what drew you into it and how it is living on that bleeding edge was something like five. >>Well, it's, it's absolutely thrilling living on that leading edge. It's exciting, you know, lots of risks. But the payoff yesterday was fantastic. Be able to complete that call on stage. You know, from our perspective, we were invited in fairly early on into the project. Uh, and we're, we're thrilled to be part of it. And as once we understood the scope and what everyone's trying to do, we realized like we're providing the, the SD wan for this project, connecting the public cloud, the private cloud, and we're deploying, uh, using containers, Kubernetes. And we are able to bring the entire thing together by creating one virtual network so that it's seamless and all the underlying infrastructure, that layer, layer two, layer one, the underlay is just completely invisible to be able to transport that call, to do the signaling, to do everything that needs to be done. >>So for us to become part of this project was really powerful for one, for us to just, uh, just work with some of the companies that were there, like the Linux foundation and tell the Nobel all the other big name players that were out there. And so that was, that was amazing. An amazing experience. But then the community itself that came together, like the people that we met, we met them all at the show. It's all phone calls, we met them all at the show and it really is a community filled with love and a real drive and desire, uh, to build something new and different. Right. Sprinkled with a bit of crazy. >>Yeah. >>Well, so I mean this is a, is a great example of how the Linux foundation can be a catalyst here. I mean one of the Linux foundation is so broad, the CNCF is so broad and you're operating in many domains in this being, you know, bringing the telecom world together, being one of them. But I don't know, can you maybe just talk a little bit about the ecosystem and the unique challenges of, I mean there are some times open source approaches that are a little more strongly opinionated. Like this is going to be our, this is, this is what we're working on. This is going to be our stack. This is the projects in our stack. CNCF has a obviously a, a well documented and open, uh, process around bringing projects in and projects graduating. How does that make your >>life harder? >> Yeah. Well, I mostly focus on our networking projects and working with the telecom industry. And yeah, I mean Telekom definitely likes to be opinionated, you know, I mean that's, that's kind of, and our soul. Um, and so that is also is useful because really at the end of the day, interoperability for the type of scale that telecom operators has is very important. Right? It's um, yeah, some of the cloud providers, right? It's up to the people who want to run on them to like work with their API APIs. But the, the telecom operators, they're using all these applications to provide services to their customers so they have a business need to make sure everything really works end to end. And so there's actually an initiative right now between, um, the LF networking projects and the GSM, uh, where we're really trying to, not to prescriptively, because we do also understand that that doesn't know, you're not going to get the exact same pieces of software that worked for every single operator's network or business, but with a lot more sort of UPenn opinion around, you know, what should the cloud platforms, whether they are VM based or container based, what do they look like and how can we start doing things like compliance and verification programs around commercial implementations, whether it is the underlying platform or whether it's the applications on top. >>And so that's the thing that, you know, we're, we're working on right now because at the end of the day, we're really needing to help them accelerate their, their deployments and, um, get that agility. That's the promise of. >>So, Heather, I want to go back to something you mentioned earlier that there were some gaps in Coobernetti's speak to how fast the community rallied around to, you know, allow this, uh, solution to go forward. >>Yeah. So, um, I'll, I mean basically this is what happens when you get a bunch of engineers together, you know, for the demo itself, we weren't going to fork or make our own sort of changes Kubernetes. So we, we did some things to, to tie things together. Probably you've seen SD when I see Rampart. But yeah, one of the, one of the big issues is just being able to expose multiple interfaces. Um, which, you know, in a service writer network you have multiple interfaces, right? Um, fi six support is another big issue. And so being able to expose those natively in Kubernetes or natively just using cloud native, it's something that we're still working on. Um, there, there are a couple of projects that are looking at that um, network service mesh. Uh, you know, maybe there's some different CNI who are beginning to think through that problem. Um, none of them were quite there. So yeah, we didn't want to start forking and writing pseudo Kubernetes code. Um, so we kinda just use some of the tools and the players in place to work around that. But we, what we would love is to upstream that code and to main line. Sure. >>Yeah. So Sandy would love to hear a little bit more about how SD wind fits in the entire multicloud discussion. Um, we were, we had a pop here in San Diego. There's a lab in Montreal and then there is a, a lab in France and we use public, uh, a combination of, uh, the Alibaba cloud in North America and in Europe. And what we had to do is we had to create a way for the phones to reach each other. So we had to do this initial signaling where you do the request and you have to get to all of the different pods to make the, to make the request. So what we did is we put our, um, containers and all the, in all the cloud providers and also in the labs and we were able to create that private network. And that was what allowed for the call signaling to happen. >>And for the actual call to actually be completed from one to handset to the other. Cindy, you're uh, uh, you talked about community, you know, you're an engineer, a stye in our eyes, a word is SDN when a word, I suppose they usually hear more on an enterprise side of the show. Right. And, uh, you know, talk with lots of folks who provide, you know, in, in that space. This is a little bit different, right? As you, I don't know if you've had a chance to wander either in the sessions or on the floor, kind of curious. There is some, a little bit of networking out there, a little bit networking, security and a couple of other, certainly some service mesh stuff. Right. I don't know. What are your thoughts about how this is growing up on the, in this open source world? It's, listen, it's growing up very fast, right? >>That's, that's 100% sure. I mean, the show is, is, is growing like leaps and bounds every year. It's insane. And that, that, that debt, that performance yesterday was in front of, I don't know how many thousands of people, but I mean that was huge and it was amazing. Um, and you're right, you know, normally when you're thinking about this kind of stuff, you're not necessarily thinking about the networking, but at the end of the day, you know, Kubernetes is a platform or a tool. SD wan is a tool. Um, and if you take all of these tools and put them together, you can actually build something wonderful, right? And that's what we did in this project here. We were able to deliver a 5g call and you know, run it everywhere. So I think what's important in the community, even though this is really primarily a developer event and developer show, you are seeing some edge people here, you are seeing some networking people here and people are the awareness of, Oh wait, you know, we need edge and we need networking to actually build, you know, commercializable platforms or products, right. Is, it's that awareness that's just, I think this year at least is really starting to come out. And I think next year it's going to be even more prevalent and you're going to the show me evolve, you know? And that's why where I kind of see it going. >>Yeah. I mean, I think application developers and general tend to think networking is amazing. It just happens to be, they're sort of like plumbing and power. Um, but to actually deliver it is a fairly complicated challenge and it's part of the reason we want to do the demo yesterday was actually to kind of show some of the challenges and to kind of show what it takes to set up a mobile network. So the F we're going to use Kubernetes to do that. They, you know, the developers here would have a little bit more understanding so that when we were like, we need, you know, we need multiple interfaces or we need to be able to address things in a certain way. They, they, they have a better understanding of why so they can help us from the telecom industry, uh, design and build it out. >>Yeah. I guess the last thing is we've had the cube of the open source summit. We've been to the open networking summit. Uh, you know, when you get off the stage, you put, you know, there's so many different open source projects that Dan just give us a view as to how they span across all of these communities to make sure that we don't end up with a lot of fragmented things. How does everything kind of pull together in the networking? All right, so, so many projects across so many sources, how does, how does Linux foundation make sure that we don't just end up with, you know, siloed, uh, you know, places? >>Well, yeah, to be, to be honest, it's a little bit of a challenge because sometimes the reason that we end up with multiple projects serving what looks like similar needs is because there are different technical approaches. And so might be one will work better than the other. I mean, that's kind of the idea of open source that people can try different things. Um, and, uh, we just try to help people have more, less of a not invented here sort of mindset that if there's a good reason, uh, to try a different approach, go for it. And let's see what, what takes root and what flowers. Um, but you know, also other people are doing things, so just because you're not aware of them. So we, you know, there's a lot of stuff around education and, um, sharing of information that we try to do that, that helps with that. But I mean, yeah. >>Heather, Cindy, thank you so much for joining us regulations on, on the demo. A lot of hard work. >>Thank you. I just have to tell you, I feel as though a thousand pound weight has been lifted off my shoulders out, but it was extraordinarily fun to do actually. >>It was fun. Thank you for John Troyer. I'm Stu Miniman getting towards the end of our three days wall-to-wall coverage. They're running for the tee shirts that are left, but we've got a couple more interviews. Thank you for watching the queue.

>>Live from San Diego, California at the cue covering to clock in cloud native con brought to you by red hat, the cloud native computing foundation and its ecosystem Marsh. >>Welcome back to the cube here in San Diego for cube con cloud native con 2019. It's our fourth year of doing the cube here. I'm Stu Miniman. It's my fourth time I've done this show. Joining me is Justin Warren. He's actually been to more of the coupons than the cube has, I think at least in North America. And welcome into the program to two veterans of these events from pure storage. Uh, sitting to my right is she'll be uh, Shrivastava who's a director of product marketing and sitting to her right is Anthony lay Ferrario who's a senior product manager, uh, both of you with pure storage. Thank you so much for joining us. Thanks for having us. All right, so, so we, we were kind of joking about veterans here because we know that things are moving faster and faster. You both work for storage companies. Storage is not known to be the fastest moving industry. Um, it's been fascinating for me to watch kind of things picking up the pace of change, especially when you talk about, uh, you know, how developers and you know, software and a multicloud environment, a fit-out. So she'll be maybe, you know, give us a frame for, you know, you, you know, you're in a Cooper ladies tee shirt here pures at the show. How should we be thinking about pure in this ecosystem? >>Sure. Yeah. So, uh, you're, as, you know, we, we side off as all flash on brand storage company, uh, 10 years ago and, uh, we've kept pace with constantly innovating and making sure we're meeting our customer's needs. One of the areas of course that we see a lot of enterprises moving today is two words, microservices, two words, containerized applications. And our goal that you're really is to help customers modernize, modernize their applications while still keeping that store it's seamless and keeping that, uh, invisible to the application developers. >> I think it actually lines up really well if you're do just a pure sort of steam across time has been performance with simplicity. Right? And I think the simplicity argument starts to mean something different over time, but it's a place that we still want to really focus as our customers started to use, uh, try to containerize our applications. >>There are couple of challenges. We saw continued environments, of course, they're known for their, uh, agility, uh, how portable they are. They're lightweight and they're fast. And when they're fast, storage can sometimes be a bottleneck because your storage might not necessarily scale as fast. It might not be able to provision storage volumes as fast, your container environment. And that's the challenge that we at pure why to solve with our Cuban eighties integrations. Anthony, you mentioned simplicity there. So I'm going to challenge you a bit on that because Kubernetes is generally not perceived as being particularly simple and the storage interfaces as well, like stateful sets is kind of only really stabilized over the last 18 months. So how >>is pure actually helping to make the Cuban Eddie's experience simpler for developers? Yeah, and you know, you're totally right. I don't think I was necessarily saying that someone looking for the simplest thing that could ever find would adopt Kubernetes and expect to find that. But what I really meant was, you know, on one hand you have, you know, your more traditional enterprise infrastructure type folks who are trying to build out the underlying private cloud that you're going to deploy, you know, your infrastructure on. And on the other hand, you have your developers, you have your Kubernetes, you have your cloud native applications, right? And really the interface between those is where I'm looking at that simplicity argument because traditionally pure has focused on that simple interface to the end user. But the end user, as we were talking about before, the show has shifted from a person to being a machine, right? >>And the objective for pure and what we're building on the cognitive side is how do we take that simple sort of as a service consumption experience and present that on top of what looks like a traditional infrastructure platform. So I can get more into the, the details of that if you'd like, but really that that layer is where we're focused on the simplicity and really just asking the, the, uh, the end user as few questions as we can. Right. I just want to ask you, what do you need? I don't want to ask you, well, tell me about the, you know, IQN and blah, blah. They don't want that, right? That's the simplicity I'm talking about. Yeah. Well, you run developers generally, I mean, the idea of dev ops and I challenge people whenever they mentioned dev ops, and I'm hearing a pretty consistent message that developers really don't care about infrastructure and don't want to have anything to do with it at all. >>So if you can just bake it into the system and somehow make it easier to operate it, that kind of SRE level, that infrastructure level that, that Kubernetes as a platform. So once that's solved, then as a developer, I can just get on with, with writing some code. We definitely want stories to be invisible. Yeah. So if you want, but if they want stories to be invisible, that's not so great for your brand because you actually want them to know and care about having a particular storage platform. So how do you, how do you balance that idea that we want to show you that we can have to have innovative products that you care about the storage, but you also don't need to care about the storage at all because we'll make it invisible. How does that work? >>So Coupa storage for container environments has been a challenge. And what we are trying to educate the platform level users is that with the right kind of storage, it can actually be easy stores. For QA, these can be easy. And, uh, the way we make it simple or invisible is through the automation that we provide. So pure service orchestrator is our, uh, automation for storage delivery into the containerized environments. And so it's delivered to a CSI plugin, but we tried to do a little more than just develop a plugin into your Cubanetis environments. We tried to make your scalability seamless, so it's super easy to add new storage. And, um, so yeah, I think because a container environments were initially developed for States, less applications when became to staple applications, they still think about, Oh, why should I care about storage? But people are slowly realizing that we need care about it because we don't want to ultimately be bothered by it. Right. >>And if I can make, if I can make a point to just tag on to that I, the conversations I've had at the show this week, I've even helped me sort of crystallize the way I like to explain this to people, which is at first, you know, a lot of people will say, Oh, I don't, I don't do stateful application. I'm doing stateless applications and competitors. And my response is, okay, I understand that you've decided to externalize the state of your system from your Kubernetes deployment. But at some point you have to deal with state. Now, whether that's an Oracle database, you happen to be calling out to outside of your community's cluster, whether that's a service from a public cloud like S3 or whether that's deciding to internalize that state into Coobernetti's and manage it through the same management plane you have to have state. >>Now when we talk about, you know, what we're doing in PSO and why that's valuable and why, you know, to your point about the brand, I don't necessarily worry is because when we can give a seamless experience at the developer layer and we can give the SRE or the cluster manager layer a way where they can have a trusted high performance, high availability storage platform that their developers consume without knowing or worrying about it. And then as we look into the future, how do we handle cross cluster and multi-cloud stateful workloads, we can really add value there. >>Well, yeah, and I'm glad you brought up the multi-cloud piece of it because one of the more interesting things I saw from pure this year is how pure is putting in software cloud native. Um, so when I saw that one of the questions like, okay, when I come to a show like this, how does Kubernetes and containers fit into that old discussion? So how help us connect the dots as to what was announced and everything else that's happening. >>You've heard about cloud block store, which is our software running on the AWS cloud today. And uh, that's basically what we've done is we've people have loved flash array all these years for the simplicity it provides for the automation and performance. You want to give you something similar and something enterprise grade in the public cloud. The cloud, Luxor is basically, you can think of it as a virtual flash array and on the AWS cloud. So with that, you now have D duplication, 10 provisioning capabilities in the cloud. You can, um, be brought an active cluster, which is active, active, synchronous replication between availability zones. So really making your AWS environments ready for mission critical applications. Plus with our, you know, PSO just works the same way on prem as in the cloud. So it's just great for hybrid application mobility. You have the same APIs. >>Yeah, it's actually very cool. Right? One of the, one of the, you know, fun things for me as a software developer at pure, at a software side guy at pure, um, is that the API's that our arrays have are the same API. It's actually the same underlying software version even though it's a totally different hardware, hardware back end implementation. When we run in a cloud native form factor versus when we run in a physical appliance form factor, the replication engines work between the two snapshots, clones. Um, our ability to do instant, um, restores like everything that we do and that has brought value from our, our storage software stack, we still get access to in a cloud native environment and the transports as well. I guess trying to understand, is there Kubernetes involved here or is this just natively in AWS? And then then on premises itself is a, >> is a compute orchestration layer component. So when I look at Kubernetes, I'd say Kubernetes sits above both sides, right? Or potentially above and across both sides, um, depending on how you decide to structure your environment. But the nice part is if you've developed a cloud native application, right, and that's running on Kubernetes, the ability to support that with the same storage interfaces, the same SLS, move it efficiently, copy it efficiently and do that on whatever cloud you care to do. That's where it gets really cool. >>So we developed this really cool demo where you have a container application running on PSO, on flash array, on prem. We migrated that to cloud block store and on AWS and it just runs, you use the same yanno scripts in both places. There is no need to, you know, do a massive rearchitecture anything. Your application just runs when you move it. And we take care of all the data mobility with our asynchronous replications, you can take a snapshot on prem, you can snap it out into AWS, restore it back into cloud block store. So it really opens up a lot of new use cases and make them simple for customers >>that that idea of write once run anywhere. I said I'm, I'm old enough to remember when Java was a brand new thing and that was the promise. And it never quite got there because it turns out it's really, really hard to do that. Um, but we are seeing for from pure and from a lot of vendors here at the show that there's a lot of work and effort being put in into that difficult problem so that other people don't have to care about it. So you're building that abstraction in and, and working on how this particular, how the details of this work. And, uh, I was fortunate enough to get a deep dive into the end of the architecture of cloud Brock's door, just a recent accelerate conference and the way you've actually used cloud resources as if they were kind of infrastructure components and then built the abstraction on top of it, but in the same way that it runs on site, it, that's what gives you that ability to, to keep everything the same and make it simple, is doing a lot of hard work and hard engineering underneath so that no one has to care anymore. >>Yeah. And the way we've architected CloudLock store is that, you know, be as use the highest performance performing, uh, AWS infrastructure. And the highest durability it this infrastructure. So you're actually now able to buy performance and, and durability in one through one single virtual appliance as you would. >>Yeah. How's the adoption of the products going? I know it was, it was very early when it was announced just a few months ago. So what's the feedback from customers been so far about? >>It's been really positive and actually, you know, the one use case that I want to highlight really most is actually dev ops use cases, right? This, the value add of being able to have the same deployment for that application for a test or dev infrastructure in one cloud versus a production to point them in another cloud has been very exciting for folks. So, you know, when you think about that use case in particular, right? The ability to say, okay, I'm coming up to a major quarterly release or whatever I have for my product, I need to establish a bunch more test environments. I don't necessarily want to have bought that and we're not necessarily talking about, you know, bursting over the wire anymore. Right. We're talking about local, uh, local storage under the same interfaces in the cloud that you choose to spin up all of those test environments. So cases like that are pretty interesting for folks. >>Yeah. I think that's how people have started to realize that it's that operation side of things. It's not even day to day 90 and day 147 where I want to be operating this in the same place in the same way no matter where it is because it just saves me so much heartache and time of not having to re implement differently and I don't have to retrain my resources because it all looks the same. So, uh, yeah, Def does definitely have a big use case migration through verbose. That's another use case that we are seeing a lot of customers interested in and uh, disaster recovery, using it as a disaster recovery. How do you, so you can efficiently store backups on Amazon S three, but how do you do an easy fast restore to actually run your applications there? So with CloudLock store, it is now possible to do that, to do a fast, easy restore. Also a couple of weeks ago actually, we started taking registrations for a beta program for cloud Glocks or for Azure as well. Uh, yup. Customers are going multi-cloud. We are going multi-cloud with them. >>Great. I want to give you both a final word, uh, takeaways for a pure storage participation here at the show. >>I think the biggest thing that I, that I want people to understand, and I actually gave this talk at the cloud native storage day on day zero is that cloud native storage is an approach to storage. There's not a location for storage. And I think pure storage that really defines to me the way we're going about this, we're trying to be cloud native storage wherever you need it. So that's, that's really the takeaway I'd like people to have about pure >>and cute and storage for Cuban. It is, doesn't have to be hard. We are here all day today as well. So, um, I mean this is a challenge the industry seeing today and uh, we have a solution to solve that for you. >>All right, well that's a, that's a bold statement, uh, to help end us as Shilpi. Anthony, thank you so much for joining us for Justin Warren. I'm Stu Miniman back with more coverage here from cube con cloud native con 2019 stay classy, San Diego. And thanks for watching the queue.

>>Ly from San Diego, California. It's the cube covering to clock in cloud native con brought to you by red hat, the cloud native computing foundation and its ecosystem Marsh. >>Welcome back to San Diego. I'm Stewman and my cohost is Justin Warren. And coming back to our program, one of our cube alumni and be coach hair of this coupon cloud native con prion Lyles who is also a senior staff engineer at VMware. Brian, thanks so much for joining us. Thanks for having me on. And do you want to have a shout out of course to a Vicky Chung who is your coach hair. She has been doing a lot of work. She came to our studio ahead of it to do a preview and unfortunately she's supposed to be sitting here but a little under the weather. And we know there was nothing worse than, you know, doing travel and you know, fighting an illness. But she's a little sick today, but um, uh, she knows that we'll, we'll, we'll still handle it. Alright, so Brian, 12,000 people here in attendance. >>Uh, more keynotes than most of us can keep a track of. So, first of all, um, congratulations. Uh, things seem to be going well other than maybe, uh, choosing the one day of the year that it rained in, uh, you know, San Diego, uh, which we we can't necessarily plan for. Um, I'd love you to bring us a little bit insight as to some of the, the, the goals and the themes that, uh, you know, you and Vicki and the, the, the, the, the community we're, we're looking at for, for this coupon. So you're right, let's help thousand people and so many sponsors and so many ideas and so many projects, it's really hard to have a singular theme. But a few months ago we came up with was, well, if, if Kubernetes in this cloud software make us better or basically advances, then we can do more advanced things. >>And then our end users can be more advanced. And it was like a three pong thing. And if you look, go back and look at our keynotes, he would say, Hey, we're looking at our software. Hey, we're looking at an amazing things that we did, especially cat by that five G keynote yesterday. And the notice that we had, it was me talking about how we could look forward and then, and then notice we had in talking about security and then we had Walmart and target talking about how they're using it and, and that was all on purpose. It's trying to tell a story that people can go back and look at. Yeah, I liked the, the message that you were, you were trying to put out there around how we need to make Kubernetes a little bit easier, but how we need to change the way that we talk about it as well. >>So maybe you could, uh, fill us in a little bit more. Let's say, unfortunately, Kubernetes is not going to get an easier, um, that's like saying we wish Linux was easier to use. Um, Linux has a huge ABI and API interface. It's not going to get easier. So what we need to do is start doing what we did with Linux and Linux is the Colonel. Um, this should be some Wars happened over the years and you notice some distributions are easier to use. Another. So if you use the current fedora or you the current Ubuntu or even like mint, it's getting really easy to use. And I'm not suggesting that we need Kubernetes distributions. That's actually the furthest thing, but we do need to work on building our ecosystem on top of Kubernetes because I mentioned like CIS CD, um, observability security audit management and who knows what else we need to start thinking about those things as pretty much first-class items. >>Just as important as Kubernetes. Kubernetes is the Colonel. Yeah. Um, in the keynotes, there's, as you said, there's such a broad landscape here. Uh, uh, I've heard some horror stories that people like, Oh, Hey, where do I start? And they're like, Oh, here's the CNCF landscape. And they're like, um, I can't start there. There's too much there. Uh, you, you picked out and highlighted, um, some of the lesser known pieces. Uh, th there's some areas that are a little bit mature. What, what are some of the more exciting things that you've seen going on right now, your system and this ecosystem? >> Um, I'm not even gonna. I highlighted open policy agent as a, as an interesting product. I don't know if it's the right answer, actually. I kind of wish there was a competitor just so I could determine if it was the right answer. >>But things like OPA and then like open telemetry, um, two projects coming together and having even bigger goals. Uh, let's make a severability easy. What I would also like to see is a little bit more, more maturity and the workflow space. So, you know, the CII and CD space. And I know with Argo and flux merging to Argo flux, uh, that's very interesting. And just a little bit of a tidbit is that I, I also co-chair the CNCF SIG application delivery, uh, special interest group, but, uh, we're thinking about that, that space right there. So I would love to see more in the workflow space, but then also I would like to see more security tools and not just old school check, check, check, but, um, think about what Aqua security is doing. And I'm, I don't know if they're now Snick or S, I don't know how to say it, but, um, there's, there's companies out there rethinking security. >>Let's do that. Yeah. I spoke to Snick a couple of days ago and it's, I'm pretty sure it's sneak. Apparently it stands for, so now you know, which that was news to me that, so now I know interesting. But they have a lot of good projects coming up. Yeah. You mentioned that the ecosystem and that you like that there's competitors for particular projects to kind of explore which way is the right way of doing things. We have a lot of exhibitors here and we have a lot of competitors out there trying to come into this ecosystem. It seems to actually be growing even bigger. Are we going to see a period of consolidation where some of these competing options, we decided that actually no, we don't want to use that. We want to go over here. I mean according to crossing the chasm, yes, but we need to figure out where we are on the maturity chart for, for the whole ecosystem. >>So I think in a healthy, healthy ecosystem, people don't succeed and products go away, but then what we see is in maybe six months or a year or two later, those same founders are out there creating new products. So not everyone's going to win on their first shot. So I think that's fine because, you know, we've all had failures in the past, but we're still better for those failures. Yeah, I've heard it described as a kind of Cambridge and explosion at the moment. So hopefully we don't get an asteroid that comes in and, uh, and hopefully it is out cause yeah. Um, one of the things really, really noticed is, uh, if you went back a year or even two years ago, we were talking about very much the infrastructure, the building blocks of what we had. Uh, I really noticed front and center, especially in the keynote here, talking a lot about the workload. >>You're talking about the application. We're talking about, uh, you know, much more up the stack and uh, from kind of that application, uh, uh, piece down, even, uh, some friends of mine that were new to this ecosystem was like, I don't understand what language they're talking. I'm like, well, they're talking to the app devs. That's why, you know, they're not speaking to you. Is that, was that intentional? >> Well, I mean for me it is because I like to speak to the app devs and I realized that infrastructure comes and goes. I've been doing this for decades now and I've seen the rise of Cisco as, as a networking platform and I've seen their ups and downs. I've worked in security. But what I know is fundamentals are, are just that. And I would like to speak to the developers now because we need to get back to the developers because they create the value. >>I mean the only people who win at selling via our selling Kubernetes are vendors of Kubernetes. So, you know, I work for one and then there's the clouds and then there's other companies as well. So the thing that stays constant are people are building applications and ultimately if Kubernetes and the cloud native landscape can't take care of those application developers remember happened, remember, um, OpenStack, and not in like a negative way, but remember OpenStack, it got to be so hard that people couldn't even focus on what gave value. >> Unlike obvious fact leaves on it. It's still being used a lot in, in service providers and so on. So technology never really goes away completely. It just may fade off and live in a corner and then we move on to whatever's the next newest and greatest thing and then end up reinventing ourselves and having to do all of the same problems again. >>It feels a little bit like that with sometimes the Kubernetes way where haven't we already sold this? Linux is still here, Linux is still, and Linux is still growing. I mean Linux is over Virgin five right now and Linux is adapting and bringing in new things in a Colonel and moving things out to the user land. Kubernetes needs to figure out how to do that as well. Yeah, no Brian, I think it's a great point. You know, I'm an infrastructure guy and we know the only reason infrastructure exists is to serve up that application. What Matt managed to the business, my application, my data. Um, you and your team have some open source projects that you're involved in. Maybe give us a little bit about right? So oxen is a, so let me tell you the quick story. Joe Beda and I talked about how do we approach developers where they are. >>And one thing came up really early in that conversation was, well, why don't we just tell developers where things are broken? So come to find out using Kubernetes object model and a little bit of computer science, like just a tiny little bit. You can actually build this graph where everything is connected and then all you need to do then is determine if for any type of object, is it working or is it not working? So now look at this. Now I can actually show you what's broken and what's not broken. And what makes octane a little bit different is that we also wrapped it with a dashboard that shows everything inside of a Kubernetes cluster. And then we made it extensible. And just, just a crazy thing. I made a plugin API one weekend because I'm like, Oh, that would be kind of cool. And just at this conference alone, nine to 10 people to walk up to me and said, Oh, um, we use oxygen and we use your plugin system. >>And now we've done things that I can't imagine, and I think I might've said this, I know I've said it somewhere recently, but the hallmark of a good platform is when people start creating things you could never imagine on it. And that's what Linux did. That's what Kubernetes is doing. And octane is doing it in the small right now. So kudos to me and me really and my team that's really exciting. So fry, Oakton, Coobernetti's and Tansu both are seven sided. Uh, was, was that, that, that uh, uh, moving to, uh, to, to eight, uh, so no marketing. Okay. And I don't profess to understand what marketing is. Someone just named it. And I said, you know what, I'm a developer. I don't really mind w as long as you can call it something, that's fine. I do like the idea that we should evolve the number of platonic solids. >>There's another answer too. So if you think about what seven is, it, um, people were thinking ahead and said, well, someone could actually take that and use it as another connotation. So I was like, all right, we'll just get out of that. That's why it's called octane, but still nautical theme. Okay, great. Brian. So much going on. You know, even outside of this facility, there's things going on. Uh, any hidden gems that just the, you know, our audience that's watching or people that we'll look back at this event and say, Hey, you know, here's some cool little things there. I mean, they hit the Twitters, I'm sure they'll see the therapy dogs and whatnot, but you know, for the people geeking out, some of those hidden gems that you'd want to share. Um, some of the hidden gems or I'll, I'll throw up to, um, watch what these end-user companies are doing and watch what, like the advanced companies like Walmart and target and capital one are doing. >>I just think there's a lot of lessons to be learned and think about this. They have a crazy amount of money. They're actually investing time in this. It might be a good idea. And other hidden gyms are, are companies that are embracing the, the extension model of Kubernetes through custom resource definitions and building things. So the other day I had the tests on, on the stage, and they're not the only example of this, but running my sequel and Coobernetti's and it pretty much works all well, let's see what we can run with this. So I think that there's going to be a lot more companies that are going to invest in this space and, and, and actually deliver on these types of products. And, and I think that's a very interesting space. Yeah. We, we spoke to Bloomberg just before and uh, we talked to the tests, we spoke to Subaru from the test yesterday. >>Uh, seeing how people are using Kubernetes to build these systems, which can then be built upon themselves. Right. I think that's, that's probably for me, one of the more interesting things is that we end up with a platform and then we build more platforms on top of it. But we, we're creating these higher levels of abstraction, which actually gets us closer to just being able to do the work that we want to do as developers. I don't need to think about how all of the internals work, which again to your keynote today is like, I don't want to write machine code and I just want to solve this sort of business problem. If we can embed that into the, into this ecosystem, then it just makes everyone's lives much, much easier. So you basically, that is my secret. I'm really, I know people hate it for attractions and they say they will, but no one hates an abstraction. >>You don't actually turn the crank in your motor to make the car run. You press the accelerator and it goes. Yeah. Um, so we need to figure out the correct attractions and we do that through iteration and failure, but I'm liking that people are pushing the boundaries and uh, like Joe beta and Kelsey Hightower said is that Kubernetes is a platform of platforms. It is basically an API for writing API APIs. Let's take advantage of that and write API APIs. All right. Well, Brian, thank you. Thank Vicky. Uh, please, uh, you know, share, congratulations to the team for everything done here. And while you might be stepping down as, or we do hope you'll come and join us back on the cube at a future event. No, I enjoyed talking to you all, so thank you. Alright, thanks so much Brian for Justin Warren we'll be back with more of our water wall coverage. CubeCon cloud native con here in San Diego. Thanks for watching the queue.

>>Live from San Diego, California at the cube covering to clock in cloud native con brought to you by red hat, the cloud native computing foundation and its ecosystem Marsh. >>Welcome back. This is the cubes coverage of CubeCon cloud native con here in San Diego. I am Stu Miniman. He is Justin Warren and our guest for this segment, a cube alumni VJ pan day, who's the vice president and CTO of cloud inside Cisco. Also on the keynote stage this morning. Be joined. Thanks so much for joining us again. Welcome. Pleasure to be here. All right, so, uh, we've got to see the sequel on stage. Uh, network. Please evolve. Part two. Uh, there were magnets involved. Uh, there were some XKCD Keke humor in there, which, uh, definitely this audience appreciates it. Um, but part to come on the networking industry is known for its lightening fast changes. Um, Oh, maybe I'm thinking of this ecosystem, but um, it could give her audience a little bit of a taste of, uh, you know, the, the, the, the premise, uh, of, of what you were talking about. >>Absolutely. I think, uh, so back in Barcelona I talked about how networking needed to evolve for a cloud native environment and the whole idea behind that talk was we've gone from physical infrastructure, which we call infant one dot Oh two virtual, which is in for two Dato. And in that transition, really nothing much changed except taking everything that was physical or even in the application space, taking monolithic apps and just wrapping everything up in a VM. And that was okay because you got a few things around a agility, you got disaster recovery, you got a few aspects that you would like. But largely things are monolithic largely, especially on the networking side, things were still being touted as routers or via routers, switches or switches, mr music, BGP and so on and so forth. Now when you're looking at containers and microservices, and I'm not talking about containers, which are just different shifts, but if you're breaking the application down into microservices or you're using silver less to build your applications, the app is getting thinner and thinner and much more distributed. >>That's where there's a complete reimagining of the application. There's a rearchitecture and because of that, the operational architecture is changing because you can't just have a database admin. The database is now 500 components. So you need your SRE organizations, your DevOps organizations to be aligned to that. You also, and therefore your organization changes because you're following this architecture paradigm shift. Yeah. So when that happens, how can the infrastructure remain the same? So you cannot use the concepts that you've used for physical and virtual networking, which have aggregate statistical networks to solve an application networking problem. Right? >>So w w one of the big challenges there is enterprise especially they've got a lot of applications. >>When you talk about how many of them are modern apps, it's a very small segment. You know, we talk about, Oh, 20% of apps in the cloud. Well how many apps have been modernized? It's a smaller piece of that and we need to have the bridge to the customer in all of the places that they are and are going. And you know, cloud is not a destination. It's, it's an operational model. So how do I, how do I span all of the environment? And embrace them and still keep, keep, everything's moving forward to, to drive the business. That's a good question. So I think if you look at, so to your point, there is a small percentage of apps that are cloud native today. I don't think it's as small as 20% I think it's closer to around 40 but we may differ on that number. >>What we are seeing is that that number is only growing. So that's a trend to watch out for. And the other trend to watch out for is it's not just the mobile front end or the dashboard that's becoming cloud native, which was the case a couple of years ago. You're seeing databases, you're seeing a middleware, you're seeing data processing pipelines, things that are critical to our business, do all of the apps that are getting modernized and becoming cloud native. So that's one aspect. The other aspect is you might have a function that remains and legacy, so to speak and get replaced by a cloud native app that does the same thing. So you might not rewrite it, but you might replace it. So that's happening quite a bit. And so, but to your question, how do you connect all of this, these things together? Cloud native is a philosophy. It's a way of operating an infrastructure is a way of building in the redundancy we have building in velocity. So that philosophy needs to percolate not just the new cloud native apps, but you need to uplift the old infrastructure and let them become cloud native as well. So things that we're doing with an assignment, things that we're doing with the attrition and our dynamic and a whole bunch of efforts within Cisco are geared towards uplifting the older gear on all the infrastructure in order applications. Do a client cloud native operational paradigm. >>Yeah, that's true. You mentioned part of that requires changing the way human behavior works, that it changing the way you operate a lot of this infrastructure. So it's not just about purchasing a particular tool, it's about actually using different tools in completely new and different ways. So what are some of the ways that Cisco is changing the kinds of products that it offers to customers that encourages them to operate their infrastructure in a new way? >>So let me start with the networking piece and since it's fresh and new from the keynote today, uh, one of the things, if you think about again, the developers and how they deal with applications, they want the network to be simple, available and pervasive. And so if you think about this in couple of tiers, so there is a physical infrastructure that sits below everything that is again, pervasive across a multicloud environment. And it goes all the way from your handset to the data center, including the edge compute locations. It connects everything together. So taking a network like that and simplifying it in terms of automation, in terms of how dev ops can handle that networking subsystem, in terms of how do you ensure that policy is consistent across this common environment, that is something that Cisco is pushing pretty deeply. So we have this multi-domain architecture that allows you to push policy across the entire network handset to the data center through the van. >>So that's one aspect of it. But above this sits a platform layer that is closer to the developer. And this is why things like NSM comment, because the developers don't want to deal with the bells and whistles at the physical or the virtual infrastructure layer. They are defining the CRDs. They are defining that if I'm a microservice, I want to talk to another microservice, all of bare metal orders over less function. I just want to connect a to B within my application. I don't care about every other application that exists in your infrastructure. And these are the attributes that I want from that connection. So it's like a watch and Wyatt like a bus and these are the attributes to the bus and that's what we're trying to handle from a cloud native perspective. So that's what you see from the NSM side of things. >>So, uh, we, we just had to go on talking about the database and talking about a cloud native database. And, uh, the way he really describes it is, you know, it's baked into Kubernetes even though Vitez doesn't have to have Coobernetti's. And he said he even had customers that it made it possible for them to be able to, uh, have that database from one cloud to another without needing to talk to his team. Uh, and it's, it's made things possible. Help us understand how the network service mesh fit into solutions like that. >>Absolutely. And I think if you think, I mean, I love the Virtus project they've graduated, so congratulations to them. But I think, uh, the concept behind that is taking the multicloud aspect of everything that we do to a layer which is higher in the stack. So we've talked about multicloud in terms of networking, in terms of compute, uh, in terms of infrastructure primarily, but looking at a database which is multicloud looking at storage, which is multicloud. I think that's the next layer of evolution in this entire stack. But one of the examples that are talked about in my keynote, very simple, but as, or not retest, it doesn't matter. Something that every organization wants to do is dig databases that are scattered across a multitude of on-prem or a multitude of clouds and just replicate. And to do that replication, the amount of pain that any organization needs to go through today. >>It's just like programming with magnets. Going back to my keynote where you're dealing with the technical complexities of doing this, you're talking to so many routers and switches, you're talking to firewalls, you're talking to colo providers, you're talking to cloud providers and especially every tore provider has their own compliance and configuration paradigms. So all of that being different. That's just the technical complexity within one organization. They like multitudes of teams. They have dev ops, net ops, tech ops, they all need to talk to each other. Even within Cisco we talked to our Cisco ID guys. Just dev ops is like 20 teams. There's not one team. So just imagine talking to all of those teams trying to fix this thing and trying to get just database application, simple problem like that. And then process complexity. So all of those things exist. And with NSM, all you do is say, just put me on the Santa Sam domain that lets me talk securely to every other database on the same domain, wherever they happen to be in a different cluster within the same data center or geographically somewhere else in the globe. I really don't care. And NSM basically takes care of that. So that's the simplicity that we're going after. And it's a simplicity that walks across. There are seven meshes across simple layer three problems like this across service provider use cases across a whole bunch of use cases. >>Hmm. Yeah. And it just, the simple act of moving data around you would think that we'd managed to solve that problem by now, but it turns out it's hard problem to solve and being able to connect this myriad of new services together to one why we have technologies like service mesh is changing the nature of the way we operate it. And, and as you say, putting tools in place to automate a lot of the mechanisms that go on so that we as humans don't have to do it anymore because it's just not attractive or attractable problem for the humans to deal with. And I think a lot of organizations are still wrestling with that concept of, of how they can change the way that they do things so that the humans aren't going to be able to do this. It's not actually a matter of choice. They are going to be going and having, they're going to go and do different things, new and interesting things, but they're going to be at a higher level of abstraction. And I think a lot of people are very concerned by that, that we may not have jobs anymore. No, no, no, you can't have these jobs. It is just not possible for humans to do them. We need to get you to go and do these other new jobs so that we can get on with solving these business problems. >>That's a very good problem point. And I think, uh, so prior to this role I was at Google and I ran the networking infrastructure for a while and then I ended up writing the automation and telemetry stack for running that infrastructure. And one of the things that we used to say back there was, if you are infrastructure depends on humans to scale out, then there aren't enough humans to hire. Even if you have the dollars to invest, there aren't enough humans to hire to fix that problem in a human centric way. So one of the things that we are doing at Cisco for example, is this whole push towards intent based networking. And to me that's an evolution from where SDN was to now where IBM is, because SDN has had these very specific connotations around it with said software defined separation of control and data. >>It gets into this very heated debates about what this is. To me, the answer is actually intent based networking. We did some of that back at Google as well, which is treat the entire network as a singular entity and operated in a very declarative fashion. That's what this is, regardless of whether they're built in a control data separated with all their traditional BGP networks, so we are pushing IBN in a very big way and the whole problem statement there is to your point, humans can't comprehend the complexities that arise. One one, one quick topic where we were sending telemetry data through SNMP, now we are sending telemetry data was the streaming and the amount of data that any operator receives is just through the roof. What are you going to do with it? So humans can't deal with that kind of complexity. So putting formal verification, formal models, formal closed loop automation systems with AI in place. I think that's the only way to go forward at least on large scale networks and on the other side, I think on the application side, like I said, being deep and narrow and being very selfish about the application that you're trying to connect to simplifies the problem because as an app developer I'm only concerned about this particular app and have what it connects to and that is going to attract a book from a human perspective. >>Yes. thank you so much. I think anyone that's attended this conference can definitely agree with that. There is a flood of information that no one person could keep up with. So, uh, thank you so much for joining us. We hope that, uh, your journey of network please evolve, uh, that we had comes to a successful conclusion in the near future. Absolutely. Look forward to chatting with you again soon for Justin Warren. I am Stu Miniman. Uh, stay tuned. We're going to wrap up day two, and we have a whole nother day tomorrow of our coverage here from CubeCon cloud native con 2019 in San Diego. Thank you for watching the queue.

>>Live from San Diego, California at the cube covering to clock in cloud native con brought to you by red hat, the cloud native computing foundation and its ecosystem Marsh. >>Welcome back. This is the cubes coverage of CubeCon cloud date of con 2019 in San Diego, 12,000 in attendance. I'm just two minute and my cohost is John trier. And welcome back to the program. A multi-time cube alumni. You're on Aviv, who is the CTO and cofounder of a Gwoza. We've had quite a lot of, you know, founders, CTOs, you know, their big brains at this show, your own. So you know, let, let, let's start, you know, there's, there's really a gathering, uh, there's a lot of effort building out, you know, a very complicated ecosystem. Give us first, kind of your overall impressions of the show in this ecosystem. Yeah, so we're very early on on Desecco system. We were one of the first in the first batch of CNCF members when there were a few dozens of those. Not like a thousand of those. Uh, so I've been, I've been to all those shows. >>Uh, we're part of the CNCF committees for different things. And any initiating, I think this has become much more mainstream. I told you before, it's sort of the new van world. You know, I lot a lot more, uh, all day infrastructure vendors along with middleware and application vendor are coming here. All right, so, so one of the things we like having you on the program you're on is you don't pull any punches. So we've seen certain waves of technology come with big promise and fall short, you know, big data was going to allow us to leverage everything and you know, large percentage of, uh, solutions, you know, had to stop or be pulled back. Um, give us, what's the cautionary tale that we should learn and make sure that we don't repeat, you know, so I've been a CTO for many years in different companies and, and what everyone used to say about it, I'm always right. >>I'm only one year off usually. I'm usually a little more optimistic. So, you know, we've been talking about Cloudera and Hadoop world sort of going down and Kubernetes and cloud services, essentially replacing them. We were talking about it four years ago and what do you see that's actually happening? You know, with the collapse of my par and whore, then we're going to Cloudera things are going down, customer now Denon guys, we need equivalent solution for Kubernetes. We're not going to maintain two clusters. So I think in general we've been, uh, picking on many of those friends. We've, we've invented serverless before it was even called serverless with, with nuclear and now we're expanding it further and now we see the new emerging trends really around machine learning and AI. That's sort of the big thing. I'm surprised, you know, that's our space where essentially you're doing a data science platform as a service fully automated around serverless constructs so people can, can develop things really, really quickly. >>And what I see that, you know, third of the people I talk to are, have some relations to machine learning and AI. Yeah. Maybe explain that for our audience a little bit. Because when, you know, Kubernetes first started very much an infrastructure discussion, but the last year or two, uh, very much application specific, we hear many people talking about those data use cases, AI and ML early days. But you know how, how does that fit into the overall? It's simple. You know there, if you're moving to the cloud are two workloads. There is lift and shift workloads and there are new workloads. Okay, lift and ship. Why? Why bother moving them to Kubernetes? Okay, so you end up with new workloads. Everyone is trying to be cloud native server, elastic services and all that. Everyone has to feed data and machine learning into those new applications. This is why you see those trends that talk about old data integration, various frameworks and all that in that space. >>So I don't think it's by coincidence. I think it's, that's because new applications incorporate the intelligence. That's why you hear a lot of the talk about those things. What I loved about the architecture, what you just said is like people don't want to run into another cluster. I don't want to run two versions of Kubernetes, you know, if I'm moving there you, because you, but you're still built on that, that kind of infrastructure framework and, and knowledge of, of how to do serverless and how to make more nodes and fewer nodes and persistent storage and all that sort of good stuff and uh, and, and run TensorFlow and run, you know, all these, all these big data apps. But you can, um, you can talk about that just as a, as a, the advantage to your customer cause you could, it seems like you could, you could run it on top of GKE. >>You could run it on prem. I could run my own Coobernetti's you could, you could just give me a, uh, so >> we, we say Kubernetes is not interesting. I didn't know. I don't want anyone to get offended. Okay. But Kubernetes is not the big deal. The big deal is organizations want to be competitive in this sort of digital world. They need to build new applications. Old ones are sort of in sort of a maintenance mode. And the big point is about delivering new application with elastic scaling because your, your customers may, may be a million people behind some sort of, uh, you know, uh, app. Okay. Um, so that's the key thing and Kubernetes is a way to deliver those microservices. But what we figured out, it's still very complicated for people. Okay. Especially in, in the data science work. Uh, he takes him a few weeks to deliver a model on a Jupiter notebook, whatever. >>And then productizing it is about the year. That's something we've seen between six months to a year to productize things that are relatively simple. Okay. And that's because people think about the container, the TensorFlow, the Kuda driver, whatever, how to scale it, how to make it perform, et cetera. So let's, we came up with is traditionally there's a notion of serverless, which is abstraction with very slow performance, very limited set of use cases. We sell services about elastic scaling paper, use, full automation around dev ops and all that. Okay. Why cannot apply to other use cases are really high concurrency, high-speed batch, no distributed training, distributed workload. Because we're coming, if you know my background, you know, been beeping in Mellanox and other high-performance companies. So where I have a, we have a high performance DNA so we don't know how to build things are extremely slow. >>It sort of irritates me. So the point is that how can we apply this notion of abstraction and scaling and all that to variety of workloads and this is essentially what it was. It is a combination of high speed data technology for like, you know, moving data around on between those function and extremely high speed set though functions that work on the different domains of data collection and ingestion, data analytics, you know, machine learning, training and CIN learning model serving. So a customer can come on on our platform and we have testimonials around that, that you know, things that they thought about building on Amazon or even on prem for months and months. They'd built in our platform in few weeks with fewer people because the focus is on building the application. The focus is not about joining your Kubernetes. Now we go to customers, some of them are large banks, et cetera. >>They say, Alrighty, likes Kubernetes, we have our own Kubernetes. So you know what, we don't butter. Initially we, we used to bring our own Kubernetes, but then you know, I don't mind, you know, we do struggle sometimes because our level of expertise in Coobernetti's is way more sophisticated than what they have to say. Okay, we've installed Kubernetes and we come with our software stack. No you didn't, you know, you didn't configure the security, they didn't configure ingress, et cetera. So sometimes it's easier for us to bring, but we don't want him to get into this sort of tension with it. Our focus is to accelerate development on the new application that are intelligent, you know, move applications from, if you think of the traditional data analytics and data science, it's about reporting and what people want to do. And some applications we've announced this week and application around real time cyber collection, it's being used in some different governments is that you can collect a lot of information, SMS, telephony, video, et cetera. >>And in real time you could detect terrorists. Okay. So those application requires high concurrency always on rolling upgrades, things that weren't there in the traditional BI, Oracle, you know, kind of reporting. So you have this wave of putting intelligence into more highly concurrent online application. It requires all the dev ops sort of aspects, but all the data analytics and machine learning aspects to to come to come along. Alright. So speaking of those workloads for, for machine learning, uh, cube flow is a project, uh, moving the, moving in that space along it. Give us the update there. Yeah. So, so there is sort of a rising star in the Kubernetes community around how to automate machine learning workflows. That's cube flow. Uh, I'm personally, I one of the committers and killed flow and what we've done, because it's very complicated cause Google developed the cube cube flow as one of the services on, on a GKE. >>Okay. And the tweaked everything. It works great in GK, even that it's relatively new technology and people want to move around it in a more generic. So one of the things in our platform is a managed cube flow that works natively with all the rest of the solutions. And other thing that we've done is we make it, we made it fully. So instead of queue flow approach is very con, you know, Kubernetes oriented containers, the ammos, all that. Uh, in our flavor of Coupa we can just create function and you just like chain functions and you click and it runs. Just, you've mentioned a couple of times, uh, how does serverless, as you defined it, fit in with, uh, Coobernetti's? Is that working together just functions on top or I'm just trying to make here, >> you'll, you'll hear different things. I think when most people say serverless, they mean sort of front end application things that are served low concurrency, a Terra, you know, uh, when we mean serverless, it's, we have eight different engines that each one is very good in, in different, uh, domain like distributed deep learning, you know, distributed machine learning, et cetera. >>And we know how to fit the thing into any workloads. So for me, uh, we deliver the elastic scaling, the paper use and the ease of use of sort of no dev ops across all the eight workloads that we're addressing. For most people it's like a single Dreek phony. And I think really that the future is, is moving to that. And if you think about serverless, there's another aspect here which is very important for machine learning and Israel's ability. I'm not going to develop any algorithm in the world. Okay. There are a bunch of companies or users or developers that can develop an algorithm and I can just consume it. So the future in data science but not just data science is essentially to have like marketplaces of algorithms premade or analytic tools or maybe even vendors licensing their technology through sort of prepackaged solution. >>So we're a great believer of forget about the infrastructure, focus on the business components and Daisy chain them in to a pipeline like UFO pipeline and run them. And that will allow you most reusability that, you know, lowest amount of cost, best performance, et cetera. That's great. I just want to double click on the serverless idea one more time, but, so you're, you're developing, it's an architectural pattern, uh, and you're developing these concepts yourself. You're not actually, sometimes the concept gets confused with the implementations of other people's serverless frameworks or things like that. Is that, is that correct? I think there are confusion. I'm getting asked a lot of times. How do you compare your technology compared to let's say a? You've heard the term gay native is just a technology or open FAS or, yeah. Hold on. Pfizer's a CGIs or Alito. An open community is very nice for hobbies, but if you're an enterprise and it's security, Eldep integration, authentication for anything, you need DUIs, you need CLI, you need all of those things. >>So Amazon provides that with Lambda. Can you compare Lambda to K native? No. Okay. Native is, I need to go from get and build and all that. Serverless is about taking a function and clicking and deploying. It's not about building. And the problem is that this conference is about people, it people in crowd for people who like to build. So they, they don't like to get something that work. They want to get the build the Lego building blocks so they can play. So in our view, serverless is not open FAS or K native. Okay. It's something that you click and it works and have all the enterprise set of features. We've extended it to different levels of magnitude of performance. I'll give you an anecdote. I did a comparison for our customer asking me the same question, not about Canadian, but this time Lambda. How do you guys compare with London? >>Know Nokia is extremely high performance. You know we are doing up to 400,000 events on a single process and the customer said, you know what, I have a use case. I need like 5,000 events per second. How do you guys compare a total across all my functions? How do you compare against Lambda? We went into, you know the price calculator, 5,000 events per second on Lambda. That's $50,000 okay. $50,000 we do about, let's say even in simple function, 60,000 per process, $500 VM on Amazon, $500 VM on Amazon with our technology stick, 2000 transactions per second, 5,000 events per second on Lambda. That's 50,000. Okay. 100 times more expensive. So it depends on the design point. We designed our solution to be extremely efficient, high concurrency. If you just need something to do a web hook, use Lambda, you know, if you are trying to build a high concurrency application efficient, you know, an enterprise application on it, on a serverless architecture construct come to us. >>Yeah. So, so just a, I'll pause at this for you because a, it reminds me what you were talking about about the builders here in the early days of VMware to get it to work the way I wanted to. People need to participate and build it and there's the Ikea effect. If I actually helped build it a little bit, I like it more to get to the vast majority, uh, to uh, adopt those things. It needs to become simplified and I can't have, you know, all the applications move over to this environment if I have to constantly tweak that. Everything. So that's the trend we've been really seeing this year is some of that simplification needs to get there. There's focus on, you know, the operators, the day two operations, the applications so that anybody can get there without having to build themselves. So we know there's still work to be done. >>Um, but if we've crossed the chasm and we want the majority to now adopt this, it can't be that I have to customize it. It needs to be more turnkey. Yeah. And I think it's a friendly and attitude between what you'll see in Amazon reinvent in couple of weeks. And then what you see here, because there is those, the focus of we're building application a what kind of tools and the Jess is gonna just launch today on the, on the floor. Okay. So we can just consume it and build our new application. They're not thinking, how did Andy just, he built his tools. Okay. And I think that's the opposite here is like how can you know Ali's is still working inside underneath dude who cares about his team. You know, you care about having connectivity between two points and and all that. How do you implement it that, you know, let someone else take care of it and then you can apply your few people that you have on solving your business problem, not on infrastructure. >>You know, I just met a guy, came to our booth, we've seen our demo. Pretty impressive how we rise people function and need scales and does everything automatically said we want to build something like you're doing, you know, not really like only 10% of what you just showed me. And we have about six people and for three months where it just like scratching our head. I said, okay, you can use our platform, pay us some software license and now you'll get, you know, 10 times more functionality and your six people can do something more useful. Says right, let's do a POC. So, so that's our intention and I think people are starting to get it because Kubernetes is not easy. Again, people tell me we installed Kubernete is now installed your stack and then they haven't installed like 20% of all the things that you need to stop so well your own have Eve always pleasure to catch up with you. Thanks for the all the updates and I know we'll catch up with you again soon. Sure. All right. For John Troyer, I'm Stu Miniman. We'll be back with more coverage here from CubeCon cloud date of con in San Diego. Thanks for watching the cube.

>>Live from San Diego, California at the cube covering to clock in cloud native con brought to you by red hat, the cloud native computing foundation and its ecosystem Marsh. >>Welcome back. This is the cubes coverage of CubeCon cloud native con 2019 in San Diego, 12,000 in attendance. I'm zoomin and my co host is John Troyer and welcome to the program, the co founder and CTO of Lacework. Vikrum. Kapore's yeah. Thank you so much for joining us that to be here. So we had your CEO on at the first cloud security show, uh, earlier this year. A security definitely, you know, it's a board level discussion from center. I can never pass up the opportunity when I have a founder on the program. Just step us back for a second kind of book. The why of Lacework. Yeah, yeah. So I think if you look at the cloud ecosystem and communities now with containers, it's very clear that it requires like a new kind of way to look at security. Like all the traditional security tools for the data center were really built for like, you know, based on network. >>And then since they can know and as you move to the cloud, you know it's very hard to take 100 bucks to the cloud. You know, even with the virtual, you know boxes, it's really not that clean and good architecture. So what we found was that, you know, you really need a new way to think about it and me think about it as really a big data problem that you collect a lot of data, you process it, you analyze it, you get people to come with compliance and governance and breach protection automatically without having them light necessarily a lot of rules. Yeah. There's a term that this show cloud native and the maturity I've heard this year is some people say when I do cloud data, that means I like bake it into Kubernetes and that means you know, I can take my database across all the environments, I can take them there. >>Does that line up with how we should think about cloud security or is it more a little bit different than that? It's a little bit different than that. And the reason being that if you do all that, then what cloud native typically would also bring with itself would be things like your VMs and containers are not long than English short learning. And like in my world, in the old world, like I've been developing for 20 years, I knew the IP address on my airways and it didn't change and I knew the port number. But now if you ask me on cloud native environments, where is my database? Like I don't know there a five instances that ain't gonna hit their head in there. So there's a lot of elasticity, dynamic stuff that comes along with a network layer is not relevant at all to like what the applications are doing. >>So you need to get into the application layer and therefore particularly becomes a little bit different in that environment. So it's kind of, you know, the fact that I can run like thousand containers for no GS in like an instance which allows me to do that also means that, you know, I have no idea where they're running and what the IPS are. And I don't know, security on IP, I do it on, no Jess, like that's really what it is. So with Lacework though, you're, you're really monitoring this a, it's a platform. It's watching in real time. All this data is coming in. So it's both analyzing the history and it's got the stuff coming in. So you have a multiple layers. I mean we're here, uh, we're here at CubeCon. Coobernetti's is kind of the engine of what's going on, but there are other layers going on here. >>There's, yeah, there's all the application code and the pods. There's a, there's a cloud underneath and you all support, you know, different public clouds and on parameter and things like that. Yeah. Can you talk a little bit about maybe what's con some of the patterns of things you are dealing with, with all those different layers and those environments? >> Yeah, so I think it's actually a very relevant question. Like if you're going to think about like, you know, Coobernetti's you know, and as you said, like nothing really guns in isolation, right? Governance has to use containers. At some level. It has to run in either, even if it's managed, it's nothing in some VM somewhere. And the VM is basically the cloud native on VMware or it's hosted on some AWS cloud account and the cloud account probably has an API access to you to be able to set these things up or unset them if an attacker gets access to that. >>So we kind of think of security as comprehensively doing across the board. Like starting from like you know, build environments to run environments where before a developer does a build, you want to do one everyday analysis and make sure you're not building something with known problems in there. So you fix them as you go. Once you deploy them you need to look at like cloud configuration and you know, buckets on Autobahn or security groups are not, you know, incorrect. And then beyond that you actually really need a breach detection system, which kind of tells you when something does go wrong. And that can't be just inside Kubernetes or just containers. You kind of have to go look at every layer because you know, I've seen it personally, like, you know, as an, you know, having to look at some of the attacks, like when an attacker gets into one layer, he'll move into any layer he wants. Like there is really no way to say, I'll isolate him in this day only. So you have to going to protect everything and you're to Derbyshire Christian across the board. Yeah, I remember >>felt like it was a couple of years ago there was a security issue inside a Coobernetti's community freaked out a little bit, but you know, ended up moving past that. What are really kind of those security risks inside where does, where does Lacework fit fit into that discussion? >>Yeah, so I think it's really around like, you know, thinking like, you know, not companies as an isolated platform but actually part of the tech stack and ecosystem and looking at holistic lacrosse. It so fundamentally some of the security concepts haven't changed. You need to make sure you don't leave those open. Right. So if I have a door open on my uh, you know, API level, well it doesn't really matter if I close it on coronaries it's going to get exploded. Whoever is also comes with its own API SOA so that you have to monitor that. Also it has its own pod and it has its own port policies. So we're going to have to figure that too. So fundamentally I think at some level it boils down to making sure you kind of work with our tech security and dev ops. You need to work together to make sure that before the deploy it, it's kind of architected the right way. >>It has the correct VPCs and the port policies and the product texture and at the same time at run time, make sure you're monitoring it so that if something happens, you know about it early versus like six months later when the data is leaving your data center and then somebody tells you it's leaving it like it's too late at that point with your customers, then you're still seeing a role for the security team in the enterprise as well. The dev ops team better not be a better be coordinated with a platform like Lacework. Can you maybe talk a little bit about the enterprise situation and I'm guessing versus a startup? There's a lot more, there's a few other requirements that are coming up. >> We see that a lot across our customers. Like fundamentally DevOps and security really have to be on the same page because at the end of the day, like you know, the way the cloud happened in the has happened, it's a very API centric world. >>Like everything I do on AWS or GCP or Azure or is to an API. So it's a developer kind of centric world. And then if I have to set up a VPC, I have to work with the dev ops for Saturday and if I have to set up security groups, I have to work for dev ops, etc. So fundamentally, if they're not on the same page, you end up in like, you know, having problems. So the way we help in that environment is that we are able to get security on the DevOps team on the same page where they know security can understand what applications they can look at the behavior, they can understand, you know, what the architecture is and when they go tell dev ops to kind of, you know, there is something going on, can you help me? They can have a shared vocabulary and a language and they can talk about like things like on this part I saw access to, or you know, this website or DNS name, not that somebody in our data center went to the IP and like okay, but what does that mean the container is gone and the part's gone. >>Like what do I do with it? So I think we see that and I see, I feel longterm is really a collaboration where security brings to the table a lot of the knowhow and how to secure something. But at the same time, an actual implementation of it probably belongs in DevOps where like if you want to enforce something, you probably have to work with Kubernetes and Kubernetes API has to actually enforce it. So it kind of goes both ways. >> All right Vikram, talk to us about scale. We've talked to everything from broad scale to small scale in this environment. Give us the security aspect of that. So scale has been one of my favorite topics in the last 20 years. I've worked on this for systems and big data like at Oracle for a long time. And fundamentally what happens is that when you, when you do something on 10 PMs, you know, and you look at some alert, it's actually you know, one problem. >>But when you scale that up to like 10,000 VMs or you know, 10,000 containers and lots of users and developers doing multiple changes a day and like a billion connections now or like some of our customers do, it's no longer possible to look at like, you know, connections. It's no longer possible to look at every process. You've got to have to figure out how to deal with that problem by doing, you know, not operator processing and clustering. And that's what we do well. But at some point, scalability basically comes up when you end up having to, on any of the dimensions, having to deal with the problem where I can't, you know, as a human, I can't look at everything. So you have to kind of at that point, start investing in anomaly detection and figuring needle in the haystack problems so we can focus on them versus like, you know, one VM, something happened. All right, Vikram, really appreciate the updates. We know we're going to see lace Lacework at many of >>the cloud shows. Appreciate all the updates, everything in the Kubernetes environment. They kept doing it for John Troyer OMSU amendment back with more coverage here in just a little bit. Thanks as always for watching the cube.

>>Ly from San Diego, California. It's the cube covering to clock in cloud native con brought to you by red hat, the cloud native computing foundation and its ecosystem Marsh. >>Welcome back to San Diego. It's CubeCon cloud native con 2019. You're watching the cube. I'm streaming in my cohost for three days of live coverage is John Troyer and happened at welcome fresh off the keynote stage to my right is as hers as har who's the chief architect for telco at red hat and the man that was behind the scenes for a lot of it, hunting Garcia, telco solutions manager at red hat. A gentlemen, thanks so much for joining us and a very interesting keynote. So you know 5g uh, you know, my background's networking, we all watch it. Um, uh, let's say my telco provider already says that I have something related to five G on my phone that we grumble a little bit about, but we're not going to talk about that where we are going to talk about his keynote. Uh, we had a China mobile up on stage. Uh, maybe a, I love a little bit behind the scenes as you were saying. Uh, you know, the cloud native enabled not just uh, you know, the keynote and what it's living, but it gets a little bit of what >>well, sure. Um, look, when we took on this particular project to build a cloud native environment, uh, for five genes, we spent a lot of time planning and in fact this is a guy who actually did, you know, most of that work, um, to do a lot of planning in terms of picking different components and getting that together. Um, one of the things that cloud native environment allows us to do is bring things up quickly. The resilience part of it and the scale bar, right? Those are the two important components and attributes of cloud native. In fact, what happened last night was obviously one of the circuit breakers trapped and we actually lost power to that particular entire part that is onstage. I mean, nobody knows about this. I didn't talk about it as part of the keynote, but guess what? Through because it was cloud native because it was built in an automated fashion. People were able to work. Yes, they spent about three hours or so to actually get that back up. But we got it back up and running and we showed it live today. But what, I'm not trying to stress on how it failed a white fail. I'm trying to stress on how quickly things came back up and more important. The only cloud native way of doing things could have done that. Otherwise it wouldn't have been possible. All right. >>as, as the man behind the scenes there. Uh, it's great when we have, you know, here's actually the largest telco provider in the world. Uh, you know, showing what it, it's happened. So the title Kubernetes everywhere that telco edge gets a little bit of a hind, the scenes as to kind of the, the, the mission of building the solution and how you got it, you know, your, your, your customers, your partners, uh, engaged and excited to participate in. >> This is what's that very thirsting enterprise through realize. Actually, we took four months around, uh, 15 partners. And, uh, I would say partners >>because in that case, I'm taking, uh, uh, bell Canada and China mobile is a partners. They are part of the project. They were giving us a requirement, helping us all the way to it and together other, uh, more, uh, commercial partners. And of course, uh, as whatsover Allianz, like the team in the and the open interface, Allianz is, we're working with us is, was about 8,200 people working behind the scenes to get this work, uh, to have a lab, uh, directly, completely set up with a full, uh, Fuji containerized MoMA and network in France, uh, have the same in Montreal. Fuji and fogey called directly Montiel as well, uh, in one of our partners, uh, Calum labs and then bringing here the fudgey pop, uh, and have everything connected to the public cloud. So we have everything in there. So all the technology, all the mobile technology was there. >>We have enterprise technology that we're using to connect all the, all the labs and the, and the pop here with the public cloud to. Uh, um, technology and we have of course deployed as, as a, as our, uh, was mentioning. We deployed Kubernete is on the public cloud and we have as well Kubernete is open, rehabbed, open stack, uh, sorry. They had OpenShift container platform running on the, on all the premise in the lab in France and Davi, Marcia and they pop here. Uh, as I say, it was kind of an interesting enterprise. We have some hiccups last night, but uh, we were able to put that out the world telco, >>very specialized, very high service level agreements. I always want by phone to work and so a little bit, uh, uses different terminology than the rest of it sometimes. Right. And MP and VNF and VCO. But so maybe let's real to tell people a little bit like what are we actually talking about here? I mean, people also may not be following edge and, and teleco and what's actually sitting in their home town or, or it used to be embedded chips and none, it was a like Linux, but we're actually talking about installing Kubernetes clusters in a lot of different, really interesting typologies. That's absolutely true actually with the way how, and described it as perfect in the sense that we actually had Kubernetes clusters sitting in a data center environment in France, in Montreal and a remote pop that's sitting here on stage. So it was not just independent clusters but also stretch clusters where we actually had some worker nodes here that will attach back to the Montreal cluster. >>So the flexibility that it gave us was just awesome. We can't achieve that. Uh, you know, in general. But you brought up an interesting topic around, uh, you know, Getty or, uh, or, or the Teleco's operating environment, which is different and cloud native principles has, are a little bit different where they weren't very high availability, they weren't very high reliability with good amount of redundancy. Well, cloud native and actually those attributes to you. But the operational model is very different. You have to almost use codas throwaway hardware as throwaway and do a horizontal scale model to be able to build that. Whereas in the older environment, hardware was a premium switches and routers with a premium and you couldn't have a failure. So you needed all of those, you know, compliance of high availability and upgradability and so on. Here I'm upgrading processes in Linux, I'm upgrading applications. I can go deploy anytime, tear them down. Anytime I'm monitoring the infrastructure, using metrics, using telemetry. That wasn't the case before. So a different operating environment, but it provides actually better residency models than what telcos are actually yesterday. Yeah. >>Um, it's a complicated ecosystem to put all these pieces together. Uh, it gives, gives a little insight as to, uh, you know, red hats, leadership and uh, the, the, the partners that help you put it in. >>I will let him answer that. >>Um, is another, our first rodeo. We have been working on the vitro central office project with the, with the leaner foundation, uh, networking and Hopi NFV community for three last years. Uh, let's say, and the interesting part of this one is that even though we typically get with working with what the technology that they are using now, uh, we decided it's time to go with the technologies that we'll be using from now on. Um, but of course, uh, there is a set of partners that we need. We need to build the infrastructure from scratch. So for example, we have a Lenovo that was bringing all the, all the servers, uh, for the, for the set up in, uh, and here in San Diego, which actually the San Diego pub was built originally in Raleigh, Illinois, facilities and cheap all over the country to here for the show. Uh, and uh, then we have the fabric part. >>So the networking part, that's his cologne. Uh, this was working and bringing us the software defined fabric, uh, to connect all the different future. And then, then we start building this over layers on top. So we have, they had OpenShift container platform for the to completely deploy over metal servers. And then we start adding all the rest of the components, like the four G core fundamental Tran, like dividing for GFG radio from Altron, uh, together with Intel come Scott. That's his building. He started building the mobile part of it in Montreal, a San Diego. And then we add on top of that. Then we start adding the IMS core in the public cloud and then we connect everything through the by tuning. >>So a couple of things that I'd like to highlight in terms of coordinating partners, getting to know when they're ready, figuring out an onboarding process that gives them a sandbox to play with their configurations first before you connect them back into the main environment. Partitioning that working simultaneously with Malden, we had a Slack board that was full of messages every day. We had a nonstop, you know, every morning we had a scam call, right then it's like a scrum meeting every morning, just a daily stand up from eight 30 to nine 30. And we continue that all over the day. >>So as her, one of the things I really like to China mobile, uh, when they talked about in the keynote, first of all they said, you know, the problem is, you know, 20 by 2026, you know, it's, it's rainbows and unicorns and you know, 5g, uh, you know, will help enable so much around the planet. Seriously. Um, but you know, today she, she talked about major challenge in the rollout and infrastructure and service and capability. So, you know, help us understand a little bit the hype from reality of where we are with five G what we could expect. >>Absolutely. We are going through the hype phase right now, right? We are absolutely all the operators want FFG service to be delivered for sure. The reason why they want it to be delivered as they don't want to be left behind. Now there are some operators when we in more opportunistic and looking at 5g as a way to insert themselves into different conversations, IOT conversation, um, smart city conversation, right? Um, edge compute conversation. So they're being very strategic about how the big, the set of technologies, how they go deploy in that particular infrastructure and strategically offer capabilities and build partnerships. Nobody's going to rip out their existing three G four G network and replace that with 5g by 2026. It's not gonna happen, but what will happen by 2026 is an incremental phase of services that will be continued to offer. As an example, I'll give you, um, cable providers are looking at 5g as a way to get into homes because they can deploy in millimeter wave band a radio closer to the house and get a very high speed multi-gigabit high speed connection into the home without having to worry about what's your copper look like? >>Do I have fiber to the home? Do I have fiber to the business and so on. And so. So that's actually an interesting, >>okay, so you're saying solving the last mile issue in a very targeted use. >>Absolutely. So that's one. The other area might be running a partnership with BMW Toyota in, you know, some of these car companies to provide telemetry back from cars into their own, you know, operating environment so that they know what's going on, what's being used, how is it being used, how can we, how can we do provide diagnosis before the car actually begins to fail? Uh, big, you know, private environments like oil and gas mining, they are going to deploy public safety and security where all of these, you know, policemen on and safety personnel are required to now use body cams. Now you have video feeds coming from hundreds of people. There are deployment and incidents. Now you can take that information you need high speed broadband, you need the ability to analyze data and do analytics and provide feedback immediately so that they can actually act. So do three, this specific targeted use case, even a country like India where they're talking about using 5g for very specific use cases, not replacing your phone calling. >>I love that point. And it kind of ties back into some of the other things you were saying about the a agility and the operational model. And I relate it back to it. You know, my, again, my perception of some telco maybe 20 years old and that they had a tendency to do very monolithic projects. And you know, when you're out, when you're rolling out a infrastructure across the country, there's a certain, uh, monolithic nature to it. But you're talking about rolling out one, rolling out individual projects rolling out. That's also the advice we give to it. Try it with one thing, you know, try open shift with that one application and then also though, but it takes uh, the upskilling and the cultural model. So true with your telco petitioners who are, we're on Slack, they're with you and I, you know, I don't, I don't know if there's any relation, any other kinds of things to pull out about the mirror of, of the it transformation with telco transformation and colon Turner. That's actually a good point that you bring up, >>right? Look, the costs of building, if I have infrastructure from ground up is extremely high. If they want to completely revamp that. You're talking about replacing every single radio, you're talking about adding capacity more adding, you know, backhaul capacity and so on. So that isn't going to happen overnight. It's going to happen. It may take even more 10 years. Right. I mean in the most interesting thing, that stat stack that I saw was even LTE is going to grow. LTE subscriber count is going to grow for the next two years before it flatmates. So we're not going to LTE four G that's been around for a decade almost. Right. And it's going to still grow for the next two years, then it's going to flatten and then you'll start to see more 5g subscribers. Now back to the point that you were bringing up in terms of operational model change and in terms of how things will be I D principles applying it principles to telco. >>Um, there are still some challenges that we need to solve in Coobernetti's environment in particular, uh, to address the teleco side of the house. And in fact through this particular proof of concept, that was one of the things we were really attempting to highlight and shine a light on. Um, but in terms of operational models, what use applicable and it will now be totally applicable on the telco network, the CIC pipeline. There's delivery of applications and software that testing and integration, the, you know, um, operational models. Absolutely. Those, in fact, I actually have a number of service providers and telcos that I talked to who are actually thinking about a common platform for it end telco network. And they are now saying, okay, red hat, can you help us in terms of designing this type of a system. So I think what could speak to you a little bit about, uh, in this context is how the same infrastructure can be used for any kind of application. So you want to talk about how the community's platform can be used to deploy CNS and then to deploy applications and how you've shown that. Yeah. Well this is what, >>what we have been doing, right. So we have, uh, the coordinators platform does, is actually deploy and the services we have, all these partners are bringing their Cloudnative uh, function, uh, applications on top of that, that what we are calling the CNF the quantities and network functions. And basically what we were doing as well during the whole process is that we have, those partners are still developing, still finishing the software. So we were building and deploying at the same time and testing on the same time. So during the last four months, and even I can tell you even just to deny >>even last night, so the full CACD pipeline that we deploy in ID side, here it is in operation on the network side. >>Well yeah. So, so I, I want to give you the final word cause you know, John was talking about it cycles, you know, if you think about enterprises, how long they used to take to deploy things, uh, and what cloud data is doing for them. Uh, it sounds like we're going through a similar trends. >>Absolutely big in a big way. Um, telcos are actually deploying a private cloud environment and they're also leveraging public cloud in mind. In fact, sometimes they using public cloud as sandbox for their development to be completed until they get deployed and private. Claremont, they still need the private time enrollment for their own purposes, like security, data sovereignty and uh, you know, their own operational needs. So, but they want to make it as transparent as possible. And in fact, that was one of the things we want to also attempted to show, which is a public cloud today, a private cloud and bare metal, a private cloud on OpenStack. And it was like, and you know, it came together, it worked, but it is real. That's more important. And, uh, for enterprise and for telcos to be literally going down the same path with respect to their applications, their services and their operational models. I think this is really a dream come true. >>Well, congratulations on the demo. Uh, but even more importantly, congratulations on the progress. Great to see, uh, you know, the global impact that's going to have in the telecommunications market. Definitely look forward to hearing more than. >>Thank you very much. Thank you. The opportunity to >>actually be here. All right. For John Troyer, I'm Stu Miniman back with lots more here from CubeCon Claude, date of con 2019 in San Diego, California. Thanks for watching the queue.

>>Live from San Diego, California at the cube, covering to clock in cloud native con brought to you by red hat, the cloud native computing foundation and its ecosystem Marsh. >>Welcome back to the cube bumps to men. And my cohost is John Troyer and we're in San Diego for coupon cloud native con 2019. Our fourth year of covering this show over 12,000 in attendance, such growth in the ecosystem. Lots of different projects to talk about, not just Kubernetes, but joining us first time on the program. Longtime watcher Webb Brown, who's the cofounder of cube costs, yet another project here in, in the uh, ecosystem. So thanks so much for joining us. Thank you so much for having me. All right. So, uh, as a, you know, every time we get a founder on his, you know, tell us a little bit about your background and give us that why of what led to the creation of QT. >>Yeah, absolutely. So, uh, our founding team all worked in infrastructure monitoring at Google for a long time and, you know, working in container orchestration environments, uh, we saw this challenge where teams that were moving and Coopernetti's, uh, were finding themselves, uh, kind of easy to let costs kind of get away from them. Um, there are a lot of moving parts that weren't there before. There's a lot of dynamic aspects that are hard to just really get your, your arms around it. Um, and we found ourselves just really pulled towards helping teams, you know, solve those problems. Um, so yeah, that was a little over a year ago today when we made the plunge and, and here we are. >>Yeah. You know, we remember the days when, you know, public cloud was supposed to be simple and inexpensive and we found out that maybe it's neither of those things necessarily. Um, you know, let's click it a little bit as to, you know, containers, Kubernetes, what's different about this then? Everything else we've been doing in public cloud, uh, for the last, you know, 10. >>Yeah. Yeah. So, so we believe in like, it's ideal state. It still has the ability to be exactly those things, right? Simple and much more affordable. Uh, but we think that there's like tools and elements of this that create risk to the contrary. Um, and we think kind of, you know, there's three things that are different here. Uh, first is that you now have access to these incredibly powerful abstractions that are available at global scale that give you access to these really expensive resources, right? And mistakes can be costly there. Uh, two is you're seeing this like move towards decentralized deployments where you're now having individual product or application engineering teams managing their own applications, even provisioning their own infrastructure and it's a lot higher velocity, a lot higher, like dynamic environments. And then three is just, uh, it's much harder, harder to have visibility when you're in these multitenant environments. Right? You know, you can now have many teams, many even departments shipping on a single VM or a, a S a small set of EMS. >>All right, if you could just give us kind of bumper sticker or sticker on the project itself. How long has it been around? Uh, it fell ball and get hub. I see. And how many people are using it, >>growth, things like that. Absolutely. Absolutely. So we started the project about a year ago. Um, the, the get hub project specifically is for doing cross cloud cost allocation. Um, there's a lot of challenges for like measuring the cost of say, CPU, Ram, storage, et cetera. When you talk about having, you know, spot instances and U S central on AWS versus, you know, committed use in, you know, us central on TCP. So this project helps develop a uniform standard and library to measure costs across all these different environments. Um, hundreds of teams are using it today. Uh, we have integrations with Azure, GCP, AWS, and we also support on-prem Kubernetes clusters. What kind of a minor detail web, but I mean, those costs change week over week as, uh, announcements happen as instances go up and down. I mean, how, how does the project and the community come together to, to even track all that? >>Yeah, no, we know it well. I mean, we're living and breathing and seeing exactly that. Um, and that speaks to, you know, really the complexity here. Um, and the project is designed to support exactly that. So constantly refreshing billing data, uh, dynamically looking at wind pods or jobs are coming up and going down and in real time look at the cost of the nodes that they're actually running on. Um, that is both the beauty and the challenge that we face is things can change so quickly and oftentimes that's for the better. But it's also a challenge to just stay on top of all the changes happening. What does, does the community help assemble that data? Are there AP? I mean, does that, I don't think there's cost API APIs for every cloud or maybe I'm wrong. So we have, we do have a billing API integrations for these three cloud providers. So like I mentioned, AWS, Azure, GCP, uh, the community has been instrumental in finding all these edge cases, right? So like, you know, GPU in this environment versus, you know, storage in this environment. And that's, it's really this long tail of complexity that's really hard for getting this right. And the ecosystem has been absolutely key to finding all those like nooks and crannies to get this just right. Okay. >>Just finishing that thought on, on the billing, you've got billing API in the public cloud, but on the, on premises environment, uh, your mileage may vary, I'm assuming. How does that fit in? >>Yeah, you can, you can think about is kind of bring your own pricing sheet, right? So like we want to support your environment and that could be you care about, you know, just the price of CPU, memory, storage, GPS, etc. But it could also be, you know, you have some centralized ops teams that you want to allocate or like amortize the costs of across all of your tenants in that cluster. So we want to meet you where you are and give you full custom, you know, like inputs to tailor this to your environment. Okay. >>We've talked about the project. There's also a company, a associated with us, help us understand the relationship, the size of the team, uh, kind of the business strategy there. >>Yeah, absolutely. So we have an open core model where our commercial product is built on top of this open source library. You can think about it providing a lot of the, the UI and enterprise management functionality, things like, you know, multi-cloud view, uh, longterm durable storage, SAML integrations, that sort of stuff. Um, you know, we're a small team of engineers right now. Um, you know, all engineers. So we're living and breathing the like actual, you know, writing go, you know, writing code every day. Well, w we're a lot of, we live in a world. Uh, we're maybe, I dunno for post dev ops yet, but there's a lot of dev ops here at this show. You, we've got many flavors of dev ops, dev, sec ops. I mean, is this, who is, and I'm, where I'm going is, is there a dev cost ops developers now have to be worrying about the cost of what they're doing, who, who is paying attention to the, to the, uh, the, the, the cash register. >>The at the top of the coop cross. Yeah. Stack. >> Yeah. I think it's very similar to what you just said is all of this is in flux, right? And there's so many different models, uh, that are, that are working and are constantly evolving. Um, what we typically see is it's uh, someone from the finance org and someone from the dev ops org that is jointly caring about this, this picture. Um, so you know, we have opinions on how this can work really well, but we also love to just let the industry and you know, in different enterprises guide us and kind of meet them where they are. Um, but, but we think that this is going to be continuing to evolve and change for the years to come just cause so much. >>It's such a big challenge. I've talked to some large enterprises that they assign engineering resources to do the financial engineering thing and it seems that number one is the cloud providers should be able to put, put some, you know, pieces in place. Secondly, you know, automation intelligence of, you know, that this entire ecosystem should be able to help. There. Is that, is that really where your, your, your team and your project is focusing to, you know, to take that, I don't want that, you know, you should be building new apps and helping my business not sitting there watching the meters and saying, Oh wait, I need >>yeah. Turn some knobs. Yeah. So I think the first part of what you mentioned is very relevant and, and was kind of the kicker that really pushed us over the edge to start this project start this company is we saw teams that were building their own internal solutions are doing all this ad hoc analysis and Oh by the way, pretty much every team we talked to is doing it differently. So that was what our real inspiration to say, okay, we have to do this. Um, we absolutely see an evolution to just more and more automation and intelligence. But you have to think about cost is not an isolated variable. Cost is very closely linked to reliability and performance, stability, all of these things. So you want to be really thoughtful and really careful when you start handing this stuff over to an algorithm. Right? Because it can mean, you know, performance regressions, it can mean, so we, you know, we absolutely see the industry evolving there. >>Um, we see a lot of teams that then in our view are like, uh, rightfully cautious before kind of handing over the keys, uh, to, to an algorithm or set of algorithms that are going to really dial the lever for them on, you know, the right amount of say, memory, compute, et cetera. I imagine there's also tradeoffs between, uh, engineering resources and cost. Right. I could do it the, the, the S the fast way with one engineer and it, and it might have one cost application. I might, uh, sure I could get my cloud costs down, but it might've taken me, you know, 10 engineer months to do. So. There's all, it's interesting. Is there a conversation in the, like, let's use the community in the broader sense about how to do this kind of capacity management and trade offs. Is there an emerging, you know, it's hard in the OSS world if there's not a project around that you can gather around. >>How do you have a conversation around, you know, costs and engineering trade offs? Yeah, I think we're still really early here and I think there's still huge opportunity. Um, and we just feel that it's incredibly challenging if you just look at the engineering side, you know, there's so much uncertainty to go in and say what's it going to take to move us from, you know, on demand a spot or move us from one reason to the other or one provider to the other. Um, that it's really hard to really put an expected costs on that and do an appropriate ROI. Um, what we've seen that, uh, a lot of teams are able to really easily identify the low hanging fruit where there's a very clear ROI, but these like, you know, marginal decisions, absolutely think there's, uh, more frameworks and more tools that can help teams make those decisions. Well, all right, so >>love to get your personal viewpoint as you're working for a startup. You're here in this massive ecosystem to tell us about that kind of environment, how it is in this cloud native ecosystem. And, uh, you know, any specific things around, you know, the event itself, >>they are welcomed. Yeah. Um, so, you know, we're coming from Google and a lot of our exposure to bigger conferences was, you know, things, things like Google IO and Google specific events. Um, and, and those are amazing to have their own, you know, ecosystem and kind of atmosphere. But, but I've never felt energy like this. I've never seen so many things that are new. So many things are changing all at once. Um, that it just, it's impossible to not get here and be excited by this stuff, right. Of like, um, you know, a lot of us have ideas how things were of all, but I definitely can't claim to like, you know, have really any real conviction around how this broader ecosystem or law that, and that just adds to the excitement of so many things are improving and evolving all at the same time. >>Yeah. Do you feel a small company like yourself can get attention with everything that's going on here? >>Yeah. I mean, what we want to do is we want to be the very best at costs. And capacity and, and, and while that touches on many things, that's really small area. So, you know, our approach is we're not going to be everything. And, and while that can be hard at times, um, we think that's right for a small team. And that's my general advice to anybody that comes to this eco is, is finding a real problem, uh, and be comfortable not being everything for everybody, but go and solve that for a set of users and do it the best. All right. If you could just give you the final word here, what should we be looking for for from Q cost, uh, kind of over the next year? Yeah, I think just, uh, you know, really getting, going deeper and broader in costs and capacity management. >>That's bringing our tools to more platforms, more users, uh, more intelligence and, and automation over time, but just continue to approve a visibility to make this easier and easier for teams to make these appropriate tradeoffs where they invest engineering resource and how they optimize costs. All right, well what, Brian, thanks so much for joining us. We are welcome to welcome. We're glad to welcome cube cost to the cube alumni. Thank you so much, John Troyer. I'm Stu Miniman and check out the cube.net for all the coverage. Uh, we've been for years at this event, uh, in the U S we've also done the European shows and so much more come in three days, wall to wall coverage. Thanks for watching the cube.

>>Ly from San Diego, California. It's the cube covering to clock in cloud native con brought to you by red hat, the cloud native computing foundation and its ecosystem Marsh. >>Welcome back. This is the cubes fourth year at coupon cloud native con 2019 here in San Diego. I'm zooming in and my cohost is John Troyer and welcome to the program, John Coyle, who's the vice president of business and corporate development at Sumo logic. Thanks so much for joining us. Thank you. All right, so John, we had the cube at Summa logic illuminate, uh, where you had a relevant announcement. I've heard you've had some great momentum of that. So why don't you bring us up to speed kind of the communities related >>happy to, yeah, this is an exciting CubeCon for us. This year, two months ago at our user conference, we announced our, our Kubernetes solution. Um, we believe it's the, the, the uh, the first true dev sec ops solution for Kubernetes that is one platform to, to provide monitoring, troubleshooting, and security across a Kubernetes environment. And uh, so far it's been an incredibly successful launch. Um, it seems to have hit a real, real sweet spot with, uh, with customers that are, uh, increasingly, or their adoption of Kubernetes and, uh, and growing, uh, growing quite rapidly and, and figuring out how to monitor and troubleshoot and secure that at scale is a huge challenge. >>Well, yeah, so look, you brought up DevSecOps and, and you know that scaling the surface area is ever increasing. We're talking a lot about edge at this conference, uh, too. So that that surface area is getting order of magnitude bigger, the amount of change going through there. So, you know, how do you help those teams? You know, it can't just be people. There's gotta be, there's gotta be automation, there's gotta be platforms that just enable me. Yeah. Great. So what do we really mean by dev sec >>ops instead of just throwing it around? Really, the way we break it down, uh, broke the solution down is that the three core components, the ability to, uh, to, to, to do discoverability observability and security. So when we say discoverability, creating an intuitive interface by which, uh, everyone from an SRE to a SOC analyst can easily, uh, denify, um, issues and, and uh, the context of the application that's running on Kubernetes. The next piece is then observability being able to, um, get all of the relevant data, the logs, the metrics, the events that you care about to, to determine whether you have an issue or not. And then doing that all in the context of not a traditional infrastructure view, but really in a service level view, which our practitioners and our customers really care about. They think about their, their microservices based apps in terms of the app itself and the all of the different microservices that uses not on the underlying infrastructure that's there. And, uh, although that may sound subtle difference between monitoring and providing visibility from an infrastructure perspective, it actually makes all the difference in terms of being able to effectively and quickly identify an issue and then remediate it. Um, these environments are getting way, way too complex, especially in on top of Kubernetes as you look. The, I had serverless, the ephemeral nature of these environments. It's, it's, it's, it's a huge trend. >>All right, so just, I hear you throw out a lot of things and there's a word I didn't hear that I've been hearing a lot this year, especially when you talk about, uh, you know, when the container rolled and even serverless, it's observability because you know, that the traditional looking at logs, monitoring environments, I need a system view. I need to be able to deal with all of the realtime changes. So, uh, what, what sumos take on a kind of this observability trend that we've heard a lot of companies talking about. >>Yeah, yeah. That's where we've invested. The vast majority of the, the, the, the development in this solution is around deservability. And again, it starts with being able to ingest all the logs, metrics and events. Um, and in that, in, in that way, we've, we've embraced the open source community and you're using things like fluent bit fluent D Prometheus's. So leveraging the tools that are already out there, getting that data into the platform and then being able to allow, you know, different users. The, uh, a hierarchical approach to navigate through the data and the content that they care about and basically apply the mental model they have for their microservices that are Coobernetti's infrastructure to, to the actual tool they're using. So we've brought out, uh, a new Explorer UI, which allows, as I mentioned, from an SRE to a SOC analyst to go get the view they care about that's relevant to the security problem they're trying to solve or, you know, a reliability issue they're seeing with one of their, one of their core applications. >>John, I want to stick with good with Kubernetes itself for a minute here. And some of the words that have already been, you've already, we've already said here are things like microservices. Yup. And also scalability and complexity. So what is Kubernetes and apps that are built on Kubernetes bringing, uh, to the data center or the, or the public cloud that, uh, are, what are the problems they're bringing with them that, that you all are helping solve? Oh yeah, that's a great question. Um, I think some of them were, you know, complexity of microservices. And let me ask you for answering first in the context of what we see. Uh, at our larger customers that are more traditional, that have legacy systems, generally what's happening is they're their most important applications. The customer facing, the revenue generating applications, whether it's an insurance company or a bank. Those applications are getting modernized first and they're moving to containers, microservices, Kubernetes. >>Um, and as those teams go ahead and develop and build, um, the, uh, the it and the security systems designed for legacy apps can't really support them. So first and foremost, those teams are struggling with visibility to what actually is happening and, and, you know, the traditional monitoring and troubleshooting, but really doing it from a service focused perspective as opposed to just an infrastructure, you know, whether something's up or down or, or, or, or, or, or, or slow or fast. And that is one of the biggest challenges they have. And providing that, that discoverability coupled with that observability is key for our more mid market type customers that were born in the cloud or cloud native. They get this right away and have really been solving this problem by uh, a hodgepodge of different solutions and really having a swivel chair type management where they move from one pane of glass to another and they kind of connect the dots. >>And again this comes back to they already have a mental model of the way their infrastructure and their applications work so they're able to piece that together. Um, but I think that that, that, those days of, of, of relying on that are, are, are, are, are fewer and fewer because the applications and the, and the systems are becoming more and more distributed, more and more complex. And especially then as you add security into the mix, which I think a lot of customers are waking up. This is great. We're not really securing this as effectively as we should be. How do you bring that into the mix also? So John, I'm wondering if you could bring us into the organizational dynamics of what's happening here. You talk about scale. Every customer we talk to here is they're spanning between their traditional environment and then they're modernizing things. >>They build some new somethings get ported over. But you know, I don't want to use the word bi-modal, but they need to pull things along and security needs to live in all of these worlds. So, so what, what, what kind of impact is that having on the organization? And we think it's dramatic and that's why I, I started out the conversation by we really believe we have a dev sec ops solution. It's just not marketing speak where, um, if you look at the announcement we made at illuminate, um, we, we highlighted how we, we've also embraced Falco, the security opensource Gabriel, but also announced integrations with the leading container and Kubernetes solutions in the market. Aqua Twistlock, uh, stack rocks where, um, dev ops and security are really all coming together. Where that, again, back to the analogy I made before the platform needs to be able to serve both the SRE for a traditional, you know, reliability issue all the way up to a SOC analyst who's trying to troubleshoot and identify whether there's a real threat with a particular application vulnerability. >>And it all needs to be in the context of, of, of one platform. You can't have two different systems going forward. The, uh, with the, um, I lost my question here. So a partnership announcement announced this week. We were talking about some of the partners you work with. Give us broader view as to, you know, what the, what, what the news is this. Yeah, we're, we're excited. So the, we, uh, on Monday we announced the, the Sumo logic app intelligence partner program. Um, and really this, the, the first iteration of this was this was announced at illuminate with, uh, with the, the partners I mentioned. Uh, Aqua stack rocks Twistlock, um, armory, um, circle CEI, uh, code fresh who all built apps integrated into our Kubernetes solution that provides customers with, uh, with a deep insight into monitoring, troubleshooting and securing those different tools. Um, and this partner program extends that where we're now making it a much more open and easier for any, any, any vendor here today to join the program, build, uh, an integration directly to the Sumo logic platform and, and provide rich, rich content. >>We've been building an awful lot of these apps ourselves over the years. Um, but we're working, looking to work with partners more closely as they know their, their apps, their use cases, their content much better than we will. And kind of forging that, that, that, that, that partnership to, to bring that, you know, combined added value to customers. And this is something that our customers continually ask us for. I've got this new tool, I want to get that information into Sumo and be able to, to, to get value like I am with all the other solutions. I haven't seen them. I do want to follow up now. Okay. Which is that you do have a great customer base, right? And so you have a great visibility into the market. Yeah. One of the buzzwords that flies around the industry is multi-cloud. Yes. And so I'm very curious on how you and your customers are seeing the progression in the marketplace, their landscape, multi-cloud. >>Because there are people out out there who are very, very far ahead of everybody else who are kind of, sometimes the word multicloud gets made fun of. I think it's actually real life. So can you talk to us a little bit about your costs? Yes. Yeah. We've, we see that, uh, we see that front and center and Kubernetes has run to the big drivers to it, right? It's, it's, uh, it's made these different clouds, uh, very equal for whether I run a, a Kubernetes environment on premise or move in AWS. I could easily move into GCP or Azure. And, uh, at our user conference two months ago, we brought out a continuous talent report that we bring out annually. And there's some interesting statistics in that where we see the more the growth and, uh, customers that are multi-cloud. It's all being driven by their adoption of Kubernetes. >>And it, it, it basically, uh, abstracts out the, the underlying the underlying infrastructure and now allows them to, to move across that. And uh, we see that as a huge demand. Yeah. I actually have some of the stats here that's, which reminded me of my question, which is, you know, enterprise adoption of multi-cloud in your survey, 50% growth year over year, you know, 80% of customers, if you look at all the clouds are, are using some sort of Kubernetes. So I mean that's the, those are real struggling numbers actually. Yeah. Yeah. Just about every major company we speak to has some initiative to get to multi-cloud timing question of how large and when they're going to actually do all that. But it's on everyone's roadmap for sure. >>All right, well, John, I'm glad we've solved all the security issues in multicloud today. Um, for, for those people that might have a little bit more to fix, you know, give us a little bit of a look forward as to what more, uh, you know, where we're going. Uh, both for Sumo and for everybody in the dev sec ops space on that, that kind of the, the, the, the growing, uh, maturity there. >>Yeah, I think, uh, you know, two areas, uh, we're, we're excited about is, um, being able to, you know, many respects. I, I look at our business, uh, we're very, very similar to a bank. People in invest or we ingest their data into the bank of Sumo, uh, with the promise of returning it back to them with some interest or some, some, some return on it. And, um, there's no shortage of data coming to us. So being able to allow customers to do and use that data in more granular, uh, and bifurcate that data all day does not, uh, created equal but allow them, uh, economically to get more value out of that data. You're going to see a lot of, uh, you know, what we call like economic disruption coming from us in the next, uh, next few weeks, next, uh, next year. And some of the things we're, we're, we're talking about. >>Um, and then also, um, taking a, a powerful platform like sumos continuous intelligence platform and really helping customers map it more directly to specific use cases. Uh, we have, uh, we have, uh, a graphic on the, on the new website announcing the app intelligence partner program that basically shows here's just about any customers, uh, uh, uh, development pipeline, whether it's a bank or a hot startup going from an idea all the way to production. Um, they need visibility and security across all of that. That, that, that, that, that, uh, that infrastructure and those applications and we can provide that what we need to do a better job is helping customers understand how they can apply the power of what we have to these specific use cases all along that pipeline. Um, and you know, as I'm sure you can attest some other conversations there, there's, there's a lack of, of a, uh, there's a labor shortage of knowledge of how you take all these new technologies and really apply them, uh, very effectively at scale. Um, and that's, that's an area we're going to be investing in heavily to help customers do that. All right, >>perfect. Way to end. Thank you, John. Thanks for giving us the update. Chandon congratulate to them the progress since illuminate for John Troyer Omstead amendment. Stay with us for more wall-to-wall covered here from cube con cloud native con 2019 stay classy. San Diego and thank you for watching the cube.

>>Live from San Diego, California. It's the cube covering to clock in cloud native con brought to you by red hat, the cloud native computing foundation and its ecosystem Marsh. >>Welcome back. This is the cubes coverage of coupon, cloud-native con 2019 here in San Diego. I'm Stu Miniman co-hosting for three days with John Troyer to my left and happy to welcome back to the program. Two of our cube alumni to my right is Robert Christiansen who is the vice president of strategy and office of the CTO with the IP group to see you. And sitting next to him is Kumar Sri Conti, SVP and CTO of that hybrid it group at HPE Kumar. Great to see you. Thank you very much. Thank you John. Good to be back here. Yes, hot off the presses. HP had a big announcement today. Uh, really unveiling it. Full container platform. Uh, Kumar, maybe it help us frame and understand, uh, what that is and why that wants here at at the show. Thank you. Is too good, too good to see John and it's very nice to be back on the cube. >>Yeah, we are very excited. We made an announcement, a HV container platform as we sat in the presser lays and various conversations. This is built on a proven technologies. HP has acquired a few companies in the past which includes my company blue data map. Our blue data has been in the container technology for more than five years. We have containers running specifically for the spa workloads like big data and AML and we brought those technologies together to give the customers the choice of 100% coupon. It has to run both stateful and stateless workloads under the same pane of glass and we are very excited about this opportunity and we have actually talked to a lot of customers and the most important in addition to all of that is the, we also integrated the map, our technology, which is one of the very so robust and sophisticated data store that gives you a persistency for the containers. >>Kumar, John and I were coming out of the keynote and saying, if you're brand new in this environment, Oh my gosh, there's just so many projects and so many pieces. You know, when I think back, you know, who helped me along the way, uh, one of the pieces you picked up with CTP, cloud technology partner and you're talking about specific applications. So you know, really building those bridges to where customers are and helping them give us, if you could some of those key use cases where you're finding that that cloud native philosophy and where customers are, are looking for HPS help. Robert and I spend a lot of time over the last few months internally and talking to the customers. Our thesis is the, all the low hanging fruit applications have mode. It's actually the most difficult applications, both stateful and stateless applications. So customers are asking and say, we want to standardize, we want to have a abstract platform and Gouverneur does is it? And, but we wanted to have a platform that gives us the board hybrid opportunity. I wanted to be able to run the on prem >>when necessary, also on the public cloud. And I wanted to be able to have a same platform to run both stateful answered as application. Yeah. And that's, that's a really interesting point because what Kumar's really, really looking at is that the only way that an enterprise has been using the path that modernization has been been a public cloud, uh, trajectory. Okay. And they really haven't had anything on premises that gave them the set of services necessary to get parody between the two. And what we're finding and you know, been been involved with public cloud since 2010 right? So hundreds and hundreds of engagements, the portion that they thought they were going to move to cloud is substantially dropped the actual number of applications versus now those are going to stay on prem. And we were looking at each other and we're saying, Hey, this is a trifecta of opportunities with the containers coming in and the normalization of Kubernetes as the unified pass platform, the abstraction of bullying all the way down to bare metal, right? >>And giving those clients that true native architectures where they are not having to pay what we consider excessive prices to be putting in that, that world right there and then allowing that monetization practice to happen. So you've got to start with that platform, that, that container platform, and to do it in the way that the motion is going right now in the world today that's consistent with the public cloud. This is really important that you have to have consistency in your development environments, whether they're public or private. And that's where we believe is important. So Robert, you're seeing enterprises develop that. It sounds like you're seeing enterprises develop that operational experience and operational expertise, process development, independent of where their workloads are running. Well, that's the goal. Okay. Yeah, yeah. Well, right now they're siloed. Right? Okay. You've got a public operating model and you've got a private operating model. >>Right? And there's some people that tried to stitch this stuff together, but it's really difficult. What we're looking to do is given consistent plain across, all right? And when you have a consistent plane, a control point across all, no matter where you put your clusters and a management frame around it, now you have the ability to build an operating model that's consistent to go forward. Okay. So you know, we've been at the show for four years. I interviewed Joe beta, uh, and, and Joe says, he said, look, you know, Kubernetes, it's not a magic layer. It does not all of a sudden say add Coobernetti's in it and everything works every hair there. No, it's a very thin layer. I'm glad he said that. Washing my car from that happened on top. Right. If flip problem just rubbed Coobernetti's on it and get better. So Kumar, help us understand kind of the HPE stack if you work and what you put together and therefore it will be an enabler for customers in your application. Thank you. That's a very, very well said and I joke that Gouverneur does, we'll wash your car and post to read and babysit. And um, so I think he enjoys the ride, a lot of wisdom there. So what we found is, uh, content has an ensemble persistence always problem per se. So if I want, if >>I have a database running and my container goes away, we also notice that you want to make sure your endpoints are well secured and you want to expose only things what you want in the thing. We also found out that customers are more interested in applications and are giving me just the engine and the tires. I need to go from point a to point B. What blue data has done is actually it actually automates all your deployments of applications. We announced that product in September, so what what what this continent platform does is bring all these pieces together so the customers to be able to move to the deploy man and not worry about whether I have tires or I have an engine or not. In addition, I would like to find out that, I think Antonio talked about it the hour Sammo we want to come to the customers and it's the best possible lowest cost workload per application. >>This is why we think better metals are very, very, very important. Running containers on bare metal will Remos techs and and there is an, and we've been running better minerals in on bare metal containers in the blue data for almost five years. One of the things I think I wanted to add to that because I, you, you were guys saying, Hey, deploying Kubernetes and just add a little bit on top of that and it's all fine, right? I thought that was a great comment. Um, a lot of our clients are literally talking about container sprawl, right? It don't take anything to go to cncf.org and pull down could the Kubernetes distro launch it out there? And I've got a bunch of stuff running. They're popping up faster than all the shadow it did when the cloud, the public cloud started coming up, right? So you have this, this, um, motion that's uncontrolled, and if you're an enterprise and you're and governance and you're trying to put your arms around a global infrastructure that you want to be able to put your arms around that, more importantly, you may have one group running 1.15. >>You may have another group 0.1, 1.8. You may have two other groups that have an older version that's into production right now, and you have them all independently running. And then you need to maintain a multitenancy across all of that and then separate those. Okay. You have to have a system that does that. And so the container HP container platform does that. This is a huge differentiating with consistent data layer underneath and that, that abstraction between the two and that governance around it is so much bigger than what we consider just Kubernetes on its own and that world comfort zone. Right, right. >>Well, I, I to play on that, right. Uh, we used to say, talk about paths a lot, right? And then a lot of words were spilled. I, I, what I love about some of the work here is that it comes from actual use, you know, proven in production use cases, years of work, you, the rough edges, the, the, the sharp, the, the cuts on your hands. Um, so that's actually great. All open source also and, and, and contributed back to the community. Also. Interesting. There is a, um, you know, but as so as folks, and there's many ways of getting Kubernetes raw, Kubernetes, Kubernetes with pieces, uh, in this room right here. So, you know, an interesting set of technologies that you've put together that with, for ease of use and for, for governance and you know, at the, from the business, from the ops layer, from the, from the dev layer. >>Um, but there is a difference of speed sometimes of uh, of uh, you know, the, what the enterprise wants to move Kubernetes these releases every quarter. And you know, I and you know, the other projects released at their own pace. So in this open source philosophy, uh, and the HPE as a partner with the, you know, point next and, and you know, support is your middle name kind of, uh, you know, how do you, how do you marry the, the, the speed of the cloud native technologies and all of the open source, uh, collaboration with, with kind of the enterprise on the enterprise side and help them? >>Yeah, very good question. I think Robert Weiner, there's one other focus for us is we didn't want to provide, I think before the injury you are talking about the curator Cuban or that we are supporting a hundred percent covenant is open source. So Robert says, I am a developer. I want 1.19 and Stu says I want do I have a 1.17 because I'm stable on that. You can have both the clusters along with the blue data, Epic controller clusters in the same pane of glass. Now you can run big data applications, you can run your cloud narrative, you can run your cloud narrative because you are on 1.19 so that is our goal. So when the CNCF releases newer versions obviously that we will support it. And then as you pointed out, HP support is the middle lame. We have a point next organization we have a CDP. So we will help the customers and we will obviously support certain versions and make sure when somebody gives a call and help the customers. And so we want to give that flexibility so that the developers can deploy whatever the native new versions that are coming up under the umbrella of HP container. It's this Epic layer that's providing some of the multitenancy and governance and controls. >>Exactly right. So this, you know, if you look at the, the, the CNCF, uh, roadmap, they're their grid, right? And you see where Coobernetti's lands in that one piece. There's all these surrounding pieces like that. There's lots and lots of vendors here that have pieces of it, right? But it takes a system, right? And you know that, and then it takes an operating model around that. Then it takes a deployment and governance model around that, right? And then you have, so there's so much more that the enterprise world acquires to make this a legitimate platform that can be scaled. >>One thing that I would like to add it, I don't want to underplay the, the, the value of a persistent proven data layer that has been there for 10 years with the map, our map around some of the best and largest databases in the world. And we are now bringing those two together. It's a, it's a very, very profound and very, very useful for the, for the enterprises. You know, Robert, you were emphasizing the consistency that needs to happen, uh, explained to how that fits in with your partnerships with all the public clouds. Uh, because you know, you hear a very different Coobernetti's message if you go to the Google show versus the Azure versus AWS. And I see HPE know at all of them. >>That's absolutely true. So, you know, I was the CTO with cloud technology partners, right? So I joined in 2013 and it was, um, our, our whole world was how do we work with the three hyperscalers to bring some consistency across them, right? You know, and you have operating models that are different for all three. I mean, what runs on AWS in a certain way is going to run differently on Azure. What's going to be running differently in GCP, right? So the tooling, all that, all the pieces are different. You go pull that back on prem. Now you have a whole different conversation as well. So what we know is that you have to have a unification of behavioral control systems in place before, wherever you deploy your clusters, wherever those are going to be like that. So what we know is is that the tagging nomenclature, the tagging is key to all of this operational models. >>All your tools are gonna be using tagging. And when you go into existing environments, taggy will be inconsistent between, even with inside AWS will be consistent, inconsistent with an Azure. So you have to have a mapping. So what we have as part of our GreenLake offering that would come in together with this is we have a unification tagging layer that bridges that gap and unifies that into a consistent nomenclature and control plane that gives you a basis to have an operating model. This is a, this only gets exposed until you start having 2050 102 hundred clusters out there. And everybody goes, how do I put my arms around this? So it's very important that that, that's just one piece of it. But operating model, operating model, operating model, I keep going back to this every time. There's a bunch of people here can spin up manage clusters all day long and some of them doing better than others, but unless you surround it and you surround it with the stuff that he's talking about is a consistent data layer, persistent and a consistent management system of all these people's behaviors, you're going to get just an unbelievable out of control platform. >>Yup. Kumar, I'd love your viewpoint as to just the overall maturity of this ecosystem and where does HPE see their role as to, you know, we talked about, you know, data and you know, everything that's changing. I heard a lot in the keynote this morning about, >>uh, some of the progress that's being made, but I'd love your viewpoint there. HP is a legend in the Valley as you know. I mean, they've done every, we, all engineering calculator starts with HV calculator. HP recognize they missed a couple of transitions in the industry. And I think there's a new leadership with, uh, with our, with the Robert and me and other other key leaders recognizes this is a great opportunity for us. We see this window to help the customers. Make the modern digitalization transition the applications, taking the monolithic applications, doing microservices. You can. In fact, Robert and I was talking to a bank and they told us they have 6,000 applications built so far. They have micro service, four of them and, and, and we have actually what, what, what we believe with this application is you can actually run your monolithic applications in a container platform while you are figuring it right. So what we see is helping the customers make the digital transition and making sure that they have, they make, they go down this journey. That's what we see. Kumar, Robert, thank you so much for the updates. Congratulations on the launch. I look forward to seeing your presence. Thanks for having and cube. I allow Q. yeah. Thanks Jeff. Again, look for next time. Okay. All right. Bye. Thanks so much for John Troyer. I'm Stu Miniman. Lots more in our three days wall to wall coverage here at cube colon cloud native con 2019 thanks for watching. Fuck you..

>> Live from Las Vegas. It's the Cube covering Adobe Summit twenty nineteen brought to you by X Ensure Interactive. >> Welcome back to the Cubes. Live coverage here in Las Vegas for Adobe Summit. Twenty nineteen. I'm John Murray with Jeffrey Kerr. Next guest. Touch Wars. Who's a global delivery lead for Adobe with sent a censure interactive. That was a tongue twister. You for you, for the adobe relationship with a censure interactive. That's correct. Thank you. Global delivery lead. Thank you. That's right. Look into the Cube. Thankyou. So global. Big big landscape, cloud computing, Global impact delivery. That's hard corn nuts and bolts on the front lines. Tell us by what you do, what some of the issues around delivery, because that's where the rubber hits the road on all this. >> Well, that's exactly right. You know, when I think of my roll, think of me if someone who's out there working shoulder to shoulder with customers when it, you know from a delivery aspect, you know, providing the capability, providing the skills, providing the talent, making sure that we're getting the results that our clients are looking for and ultimately the quality that that we need to deliver for them. >> You guys do a lot of work. I mean, censure Interactive got a great team that sets up all the upgrade ideas, all the new business models. New tech is here. People process, culture change all going on. The end of the day comes into your I've gotta deliver it. And then the outcome is that the one has to accept that this is a core issue of people, talk about operational izing new things and sometimes has changed. Management involved his new culture shifts. So this is where we hear a lot. It's not. The tech problem is the people and the culture. Can you share your view on this because you're on the front lines on this one issue? >> It's a great point. And I think you know, one thing is standing up technology, and you can sort of get some of the nuts and bolts running. It's another thing to really get our clients and our customers enabled so they can unleash the power of some of these platforms. The technologies you know, there's a entire journey map on what their own people we need to go through from in a moment. There is a change management aspect around how we get those folks sort of feeling comfortable about that, and we often go through a couple different methods to do that. Sometimes we do it too, in the box where we'll sort of act with them and the same role other ways we'll sort of lead by example and do it and then they'll sort of shadow us and then eventually we just sort of make that transition. In some cases, they just frankly, you know, outsource it to us, right? And well take over that sort of feature and functionality a role in position on behalf of our customer. And that's okay. >> kind of horsepower. Do you bring to the table? And we just interviewed Nicky, who handles the essential interactive operations that seem like a great power source standing up fast, some operational capabilities. What else do you guys do bring to the table in terms of the delivery piece? >> Well, >> what Nikki and her team do is vital for us. So when you think about when I'm out there doing, I'm out there standing up these capabilities, empowering our customers, and then Nikki's with her team and everything we're doing an X century active operations is sort of operating that for that client, right? So once we sort of turn on some of those features and functions that Nicki's out there with her team, sort of running with it. And in that multiyear run in, getting those >> custom will hand the keys to her. Do so you, that's the hand off. Is that okay? >> Exactly. Right. So once we once we sort of power everything on with our client's power, all that integration on and then we leverage Nikki and her team in many ways to sort of take over that run. Tom, if you talk about the skills, that kind of the skills gap, if you will on some of the clients that you have and how are the skills and the rules evolving to execute with some of these new tooling in this kind of new process? It wasn't like build a campaign and slow roll it out. Now it's Go, go, go, go, go! Oh, you're absolutely right on that and I think I know that. But it's evolving, right? I mean, we data scientists are more important than they ever were. And so all of our customers and ourselves are investing on how we get data science because at the heart of it and If you think about what he's talking about in some of the new products that are coming out, it's about building that data layer right. And it's about taking that data later to the next level, too, around security and tradition. So helping our customers started get their arms around what it means to manage that data and all those aspects around the view of a customer is critical. Even the even the presentation tear you know it'LL be provides all those amazing technologies that allow customers to drive those rich experiences, whether it's on a tablet, whether it's on a mobile, whether it's on your desktop, ubiquitous doesn't matter. But that presentation tears is constantly changing. I mean, we didn't have, you know, the anger and the React ten years ago. Now you have all these other frameworks you have to begin to prepare for. >> About the one of his Aquino yesterday we've got my attention was the word and look, I love the way it sounds personalization at scale. And that's just just think about that concert for second. It's mind blowing. We love we love personalization doesn't like personalization. Yeah, but at scale a lot of moving parts. This is in your guy's wheelhouse. Century irregulars have large scale customers globally. What does that mean to you? Because I had us had happened best by so much. Send out forty million emails means insane the personalization experience. What does it mean? >> Well, what? >> When I hear something needs to be a scale, you gotta break it down to be a simple as possible. You got to figure out how you make that something super complex and dumb it down to where you truly can't scale it where you can enable people quickly. Um and sometimes you think big and start small so often What we'LL do is we'LL have our customers say, if you want to do one toe, one personalization we need to be thinking about how we can create content quickly, how we can create art quickly, how we can go and and operationalized that globally. Right, Because many times you need be working around the clock. So for me, when I think of that scale, it's how do we turn those capabilities on around the globe quickly for our clients and basically, you need to break it down. >> It's a place you go, though customs saying, Let's let's pick some use cases. That's a beachhead. Get that figured out. Make sure it's not a lot of moving parts. >> Yeah, and against >> software, because experience engine things of that nature >> and sort of start small, you know? So I you know, I would light up some teams take some initial use cases, maybe think about how you know, what are some of those you know, initial user journeys that end in journey. We wantto prove out. And then let's operationalize those. And then we'LL build on top of that overtime. >> Be asked by the Adobe announcements. What's getting you excited here? The event with some of the hallway conversations and conversations after hours, a lot different events going on. What are you talking about? What's the top conversation that you're involved in >> for sure AP when you talk about the new experience platform that's coming out and everything around there to me, I think that's a game changer in the marketplace, and I think it's also critical. Certainly OD eyes all wrapped in there and all the data theater aspects. But the new experience platform that Adobe is investing, it is sort of where I think our customers are driving towards and what's required in order to meet the demands of how to secure this data. How to wrap some permissions around it, how to take. You know what we would consider a P I and pH. I like data on be able to use it and more of their tools knowing that we have the security of the integrity of >> our CM taxi. Your job with customer experience. Platform >> right. Impact. Our job is it unleashes all kinds of potential. Uh, you know, when we do you think about what were out there helping our customers solution, it opens the gamut for us to go and sort of drive those next generation experiences in a much more you know, I guess, uh, formidable way, you know, I can >> more capabilities. Oh, absolutely. You know, >> execution. Exactly. What was super complex for me to build now just became a lot easier. Because now I have a frame, Eric and a structure and a platform that they're enabling it >> has impact the interview. The customer. I mean, so the partner landscape because you guys have a lot of partnerships, just always a key. One house. You hear Adobe Summit. But, you know, you might have some of these little Miss Provider's come in with a nice tool chain. Say, Hey, you know what? I want to plug this in the biggest center interactive engine. You guys got a lot of global breath. You're gonna probably get some impact on the ecosystem. How do you see partners? Because if it's an enabling platform and should be in the building something so that's going to tell Sign what? What's your view on the partner ecosystem? >> What's the first thing I'LL say about that is I think we're in a unique position because if you look at the scale we have at Accenture, so although I'm in extension interactive, I'm very focused on that digital and building the best experience on Planet I have this huge engine behind me of Broderick Center that has these capabilities. I mean, you know what we're dreaming up around, how we're working with Microsoft and happy Well, guess what? We already do that, too, so I can bring a lot of those vendor relationships and experiences capabilities and bring him right in house quickly. And when I need to go out to market and partner. I have those avenues, and I can go bring that niche that >> Lego blocks together now. Yeah, big things, auto integrate. Just put it together and >> adobes continue to invest in their io. And that allows us to integrate and plug in these things a lot quicker than we ever have before. >> What's the biggest challenge? You see it that adobe and the markers and and market is having the marketplace because a lot of new tech, a lot of great capabilities. Now emergency. There's a shift happening. Yeah, you know what kind of been going slow? You know, yard by yard, moved the chains like a football analogy. But now big movements gonna have we see happening Way. Siya shift coming. Big wave of innovation. What's the challenge? >> That definitely two challenges. I think one, uh, it's just the speed, right. The speed in which the market is moving. And how do you keep up with that speed? And how do you continue to invest in your own people? T learn it. And then, too, I think this year amount of data like the fact that we can store all this data. We have more data coming in than we've ever had before. I mean, just think of what I owe tea is doing to our our landscape and all the data that's coming in from a night and now we can use that as a as a whole, another level of, ah, sophistication and our analytics and our segmentation. And that's a tough job, right? That's how marketers keep up with that. It's, uh, it's changing their landscape, for sure. But what about just kind of the point of view when they get competition that comes out of complete left field, right, that you know, uber and lift or the obviously examples to get way overused. But you know, the company's heir now beating against companies that weren't even in their radar before that were purpose built on moving at light speed to your point. How do you help those legacy? Those legacy guys kind of take the big league, take the big step, get to hyperspeed personalization? I mean one thing. You can't be complacent, I think if you are complacent, your you know, one of those small, innovative companies is going to slowly eat your lunch on. So I think, you know, take advantage of that mindset that those small, you know, incubation type companies or this moth and maybe even think about How do I How do I build that same type of innovation within my own halls? And how do I take a manager? How that rapid development of that rapid change and oftentimes we're helping our customers go in and bootstrap that right started like, Let's go inside. And let's build a little innovation hub inside your own organization to go and compete with them. Otherwise, you know you're going to see what you know, like the case studies you just >> referenced right, because they're in the driver's seat, for sure. I mean, I think this is great innovation. Question. That week that came up in our last segment with Jim Leyland was you know, he talked about the vendor dynamics. Yes, When you have the world floating upside down, things have changed. Sweet vendors lead and enable. Now you have abs dictating terms, the infrastructure. That's a cloud model. He made a good point, he said. You know, a lot of the transformational stuff is great, but then it fails during integration and pointing out that they get to a certain point. It just crashes, not crashes. That's my word. But he said thiss challenges. It wasn't specific on outcomes of of transmission, we said pretty much its struggles and usually doesn't happen. Yeah, how do you see that? Because with now, automation machine learning Now you have agility in a marketing landscape, not just marketing cloud. You got all kinds of other things. It's like this sales and marketing. And there is everything you have agility. How does the integration impacts and has the delivery impact that transformation >> Goal? What ends? You're exactly right in the fact that when organizations make a big investment and Toby Technologies, they typically have a lot of other investor. It's another technologies as well. And so how do you create agility where you gotta plug and play sometimes more than one, and I'm sure Jim talk to you about our customer experience, engine and the beauty of that right where we can go and really bring a framework to our customers and our clients. That allows us to take the best of all these of all these experiences all these platforms, I should say, to build the best in class experience, and that's something we absolutely bring to the table. It's a framework. We've proved it out. And frankly, we have a whole bunch of connectors that already exist. So from my mind, when I'm trying to get them to be agility, I bring that type of thing to the table to help them move fast. >> I think that's a successful tell sign we see with successful, then vendors and partners and integrators is that you guys took your core competency and rose software and he packaged it up to automate the heavy lifting that I mean, why wouldn't >> you do the >> way you >> are accustomed there, >> buddy? I mean, I walk in our customers and I'm like, Well, they have a little this. They have a little that, then they're goingto go on, make this massive invest in Adobe, and it's like they're not going to just discard to retire some of those things. So way attempt to solve that problem. >> That's a real differentiate. Congratulations. Jim was great on that final question for you. Look going forward. What do you excited about? What's on your road map? What's what's next for you is the next leg of the journey for global delivery. Well, more delivery, you >> know. Honestly, it's it's to continue to build off scale around all of our locations. So when you look at its Centre Interactive were, you know, obviously a big North American business. But we have businesses all over the globe, and it's to continue to create, you know, to meet our customer's demands as they expand global. That's how do we deliver local and how do we deliver around the clock for them? And so for me, it's about build those capabilities everywhere you go South America, Australia, New Zealand in Eastern Europe, and, uh, and making sure that we create the same delivery patterns and we leverage the same assets and accelerators like the customer experience engine in all those places. >> And one final question. As you look at the arena of the all the vendors competing, what's the what's the winning formula? What's the posture that you see that's a successful vendor as they integrate it in this kind of these journeys in these experiences, what successful makeup of a successful supplier to customers >> from this from a from a technology >> that you look at all the players got Microsoft big part of the job you got Amazon, you got all these. You know, Marsh, Martek Stack is littered with logo's consolidations happening. There's a lot of battles battles on the field right now. Players of fighting for their future. >> Well, honestly, I think those who are going to make it as simple and as easy to empower their people to use is gonna be the winner. And I think you're you're seeing that certainly at at Adobe. But there's a lot of other formidable vendors out there who are creating very simple techniques to go on like this up. The more you could empower a business person and a marketer to do self service, the bigger win you're gonna have >> and to your point about scale. Simplicity. Yeah, thanks for coming on. Great insight. Thank you so much to share in the commentary. Appreciate Todd Schwarz here on the Cube Global delivery lead for the Adobe account for a censure Interactive Stevens. One more day to coverage after this short break. I'm John free with Jeffrey will be right back