>> Live from San Diego, California It's the queue covering Sisqo live US 2019 Tio by Cisco and its ecosystem. Barker's >> Welcome Back. We're here at the San Diego Convention Center for Sisqo Live 2019 30th year The show. 28,000 in attendance. I'm stupid, and we're actually at the midpoint of three days of life water wall coverage here and happy to bring back to the program to Cube alumni first. To my right is Ben I, who is the CEO of Turban on Mick. And sitting next to him is Thomas wide, who's the chief marketing and strategy officer of AP Dynamics or APD? Ia's everybody calls them here at the show. Gentlemen, thanks so much for joining us. Thank you. All right, So, Thomas, first of all, we had you on it, reinvent like soon after the acquisition of AP ti Bisys. Go. It's been about two years, and I believe it's been about two years that turban Onyx been partnering with Cisco. So let's start with you. And you know what? What changed in those two years? >> Yeah, it's been amazing. Two years ago, we were on the doorstep of an I P O and it's been a rocketship ride ever since. You know AP Dynamics. After the last two years, the businesses more than doubled team sizes more than doubled, and today we're really happy to be the largest and fastest growing provider of application for miss monitoring in the market. But the reason why, that is, is because our customers are embarking on the sigil transformation, and the application has really become the foundation of their modern day business. That's the way brands are engaging with their users. And but now more than ever, and then the application landscape has gotten way more complex, with micro services and multiple clouds and all of the threats that go on in the infrastructure. And so what Hap Dynamics has been doing is just really providing that really time business and application performance that our customers need to ensure business outcomes. We think of ourselves as Thie Marie for the application or the infrastructure. >> That's awesome. So then, you know it's been interesting to watch in the networking space the last few years. For the most part, applications used to be That's just this thing that ran through the pipes every once in a while, I need to, you know, think about performance. I need to make sure I got buffer credits or, you know, it's now going East West rather the north south and the like. But it was solutions like turban on IQ that sat on top of it and helped understand and help people manage their application. Of course. AP ti pulling that story together even tighter. So, you know, give us the latest we've talked to you. It's just go live before an important partnership. What was the latest in your world, >> boy? The well, so one of the things we're doing is we're building an actual bundle together without D. And if you think about a PM, you're getting the application topology as well as response time and use a response time, which is critical to maintaining the brand and the digital economy that we're talking about. What when you look at every one of those hops and the application of there's a entire application stack that sits underneath a resource ing stack and what we're doing is we're bringing in a R M, which is application re sourcing management with a I so that they're automatically adjusting the resource is in all times continuously in order to support the performance needs that Abdi is showing us when you put together a PM plus a r m. You have total application performance and that customers air really, uh, queuing to so much so that we've actually decided to put this bundle officially together in the marketplace. We just became the first ap TI re sell software product, and now we're taking not to market as C one plus happy. >> Well, congratulations on that is harder ship, Thomas. Bring us inside the customers a little bit. What does this mean for them? You know what that journey we talk about, you know, for, you know, last 10 15 years, you gotta break down those silos. It's not just the networking team, you know, tossing over some band within Leighton, see and write them coming back. And I need some more. No, no, we're not going. You know, we're not going to give you any service level agreement or anything like that, because that's not our job. To what? We'll just set this up and you use what you got. So what would happen in >> trend that we're seeing is a move toward this concept of a iob, which is the really the consolidation of bringing and user application network and infrastructure monitoring closer together and tying that together with a base insights to Dr Automation and Action and very similar to what turbo gnomic specializes in here. And so what we're seeing is, you know, the combination of Cisco plus APP Dynamics. Plus, companies like Turbo is beginning to build that self healing, self learning environment where developers and environments need to be able to drive automation on that. Automation ultimately gets tomb or innovation when you can reduce the mundane tasks, really take a lot of our developers time. And so we're really excited about some of the work we're doing together when you think about the ability to take really time business insights from the application and reprogrammed the network based on the needs of the AP or change out the workloads and move them around on different servers, depending on the needs of the AP, these are all things that combination of Turbo, Cisco and epidemics are doing together. >> Yeah, actually, I did a whole show down in D. C a couple months ago, Cisco Partner. We're focused on a I ops. And, you know, we understand customers had a lot of tools that they have to deal with. We need to simplify this environment, allow them tow, you know, focus on their business, not managing this complex environment of all these tools. How does that whole concept of II ops and, you know, automating this environment managing my workloads? You know what? What do you sing with your customers? >> I think all the customers are saying, Look, there's too many tools today. They don't need another resource monitor, et cetera. What they need is they need to understand, through the lens of the application, all the resource dependencies. So instead of looking at a field of servers and saying, I have five nines availability or storage or whatever, what they really want to see is whatever the servers and storage and resource is dependent on this specific up that runs the bank or the CPD company of the manufacturer. And can I make sure that those re sources are supporting performance of the application? And that's is this total application performance concept, much more so than than whether I have five nines availability and all my other host accents? >> Yeah, absolutely. Did you have a comment on other Guy's >> gonna say We're seeing so many different customers in different verticals, Whether it's retail, hospitality, automakers, they're all benefitting from the cloud migration. And now that they have the cloud migration, the ability to have that elasticity of their workloads, they're scaling in and out based on the application demands. This is becoming critical. This is no longer a luxury for the most cloud eight of companies in the world. Enterprises with mission critical systems are all becoming dependent on these more modern technologies. And I think they need partners like ours more than ever. >> Yeah, One of the questions we've had is you talk to customers today and they are multi cloud. But that multiyear hybrid cloud is a bunch of pieces and one of our premises. We ask, from a research standpoint, how can this some of those pieces be more valuable than just the independent pieces alone, you know, kind of one plus one with, you know, an extra factor talk a little bit about the customers. And also, you know, what does this combination do that I couldn't just, you know, grab these pieces together and kind of make it work in my portfolio of those, you know, dozens of tools that I have. >> What glad. But I think the customers one of things this needed. We literally announced his partnership publicly two weeks ago and already have closed the 1st 2 just out of momentum that that folks are realizing the need to be able to say, Look, I can host my applications on Prem with a number of different vendors, I can host my applications off Prem with a number of different vendors. But the real question is, where am I going to get the most performance? Where can I do it in a compliant way with all my policies and how can I make sure that I'm doing it cost effectively? And when there's a multiplicity of tradeoffs where I can choose, then it's incumbent upon each of those vendors, strategic as they are to be able to offer the best service, the best performance, the best compliance and resource ing, and that's what we're bringing to him. And I think that's why you're seeing that a pipeline is built to several double digit millions and already deals are closing everything I'd >> add to that Is that, you know, going back to the point around a ops in the evolution of a lot of these modern ing and automation technologies. >> A lot of our >> customers have a hybrid environment of different tools and providers that they leverage. And so one of the things that were really focused on is an open ecosystem where you'd be able to ingest data sources from various different players. Some of them can be Cisco, Turman, Onyx and Abdi. But some of them can be other providers that are also have very good products in very specific domains. I think the key is that being ableto be ableto bring that data together, Dr Cross domain correlation in a more automated way than ever before, leveraging some of the more modern AI ai capabilities, which drives the action ing that people really need. And that is really the automation step is where customers start to see the benefits. But I think the better and more valuable the data that you have, the better automation you could do because your predictability of your algorithms are much better at that >> point. All right, been your customers that have rolled out that this solution I know the joint solutions brand new. But what? What is then the key metrics? Howto they define success how today they know you know that they they've reached that success. >> So first and foremost, the line of business. Who's the customer to central it? Whether it's hosted or not, they care the most. That performance does not degrade and is always improving. Okay, But when they do that and they can show that, then a ll the decision that the rest of central takes down in fromthe container layer to the pods that a virtual to the cloud I asked on Prem in off those become acceptable choices for central i t. To make because fundamentally, Lina businesses saying, Yep, we're good, right? So that's where we're seeing the value of being able to see the response time and bridging the application performance to the application resource ing that frankly hasn't ever been solved in five decades of it. And I think it goes back to a Thomas was just saying It's the quality of the analytics that comes from a iob. I don't think people need more tools to capture more data. There's a lot of data out there. The question is, can you make it actionable? And are your analytics correct? And, frankly, are they the best? And I think we see that that's been a big parcel of what we've done during the two years Cisco's told us on multiple occasions it's the fastest software O AM they've had by bringing it through, starting with the data center team and growing up through traditional Cisco and then with their purchase of Abdi two years ago. That combination makes a ton of sense, and now you've got the top all the way to the bottom. And that's a pretty special spot, I think un replicated by any other strategic today. Yeah, the other thing, >> I just added, That is the importance of being able to monitor the business in real time as well. And so a lot of what we've talked about are the technology analytics, the operational analytics that we run our business on, but being able to correlate the business transactions running through the application, so users what their journey looks like, they're, you know, abandonment, rates, revenues, you know, the ability to engage with the users, tying that back to the specific infrastructure in a way that's used to be a bit of black box before. Now that all comes a life by the combination of these technologies. >> So Thomas big trends we see at this show. So a Cisco's transformation towards a software company and the world of multi cloud abdi plays a pretty important piece of that. You know, discussion. Talk a little bit about kind of where you are and you know where do you see Cisco moving along that journey and then, you know, help tie in where turban Ah, Mick Fitz. >> Yeah. So I think it really goes back to the fact that as our customers are making this digital transformation, they're really looking at a variety of infrastructures. You know, cloud providers to be able to offer these applications. And what Appdynamics has done is really created this monitoring fabric that sits across any infrastructure and it tightly ties to the business value of the application. So if you combine that with a lot of what Cisco's doing around connectivity securing the clouds, securing the infrastructure around it and tying that Teo where we're strong and networking and bringing all that together, I think fundamentally, we've got a lot of the pieces of the puzzle to truly enable a i ops, but we don't have them all. And I think that's what's important, that we partner with people like Ben because it brings together a set of automation capability around application resource ing that we don't have and our customers are better suited working with with Ben and team on that. So how do we integrate those things in a frictionless way and make that part of our sales process? That's really what this partnerships all about. >> All right, then where do we see the partnership going down the road? >> I think it's going to get more exciting. So right now we're pulling unit Election Lee from Abdi. I think we're going to go right back the other way. That Thomas referred to, which is one of my favorite parts of Abdi. Is the business like you? Yeah, it's where you say, What is the cost of the late and see in anyone? Hop and where do the Bandon rates? Abandonment rates happen from consumers on that application right now, we can price for the first time what's the cost of the late sea in that one tear and across the across the application overall. And then, more importantly, what do we do about it? Well, that's the resource ing and the digestion is being resolved in real time. And so I think, the ability look att, the resiliency of applications both across and up and down the a p m plus the a r m and being able to guarantee or assure performance, total application performance. That's a big message. >> All right, what would I give you both? Just fun. A word here, you know, about halfway through the conference here in San Diego. Thomas, >> I would just say that the energy that we're seeing, the feedback we're getting from customers in the business insights part of the world of solutions been phenomenal. I think there's so many more developer oriented, application developer oriented individuals that's just go live than ever before. And I think that serves both of our business is quite well. >> Look, I think this has been a great show, but one of the things you're going to see is all of these vendors who have had global presence for in this case, 30 years. Sisqo live 30 years long But now being able to think through how do I become that much more application relevant? You know, if you think about transformation of application is going to come top down, not bottom up. And so, while we have all the evolution and, frankly disruption happening, digital disruption happening across it, the way to know which of the ones that are going to stick, they're going to come top down. And I think the moves that they're making all the way through buying happy all the way through partnering with C warmer turban Ah, Mick has been emblematic of what that opportunity is in the marketplace on the realization that customers care about their applications, their applications run their business. And you've got to look at the topology and you gotta look and response time and you gotta look at the resource ing. But that's a really fun spot for us to be in together. >> Bennett Thomas Congratulations on the expanded partnership and thanks again for joining us on the Cube. Thanks to you. All right, we're here in the Definite zone. Three days, Walter Wall coverage. Arms to Minuteman, David Long days in the house. Lisa Martin's here to we'll be back with lots more coverage. Thanks for watching the Cube

>> Announcer: Live from Las Vegas, it's theCUBE covering AWS re:Invent 2017, presented by AWS, intel, and our ecosystem of partners. >> Welcome back everyone, live here in Las Vegas. This is theCUBE's exclusive coverage of AWS re:Invent Amazon Web Services annual conference, forty-five thousand people here. Huge event. This is the industry bellwether for Cloud computing now, soon to be IT public sector, IOT, AI, as Amazon sets the trends. TheCUBE's got the coverage. I'm John Furrier with Stu Miniman. Our next two guests is Barry Russell, general manager and (mumbles) for Amazon Web Services Marketplace, hot and on fire, growing, and Thomas Wyatt, chief strategy officer at App Dynamics, partner of AWS. Welcome to theCUBE. >> It's great to be here guys. >> Thank you. >> Partner central, lot of love going on in the partnerships because Amazon has an enabling platform. They lower the costs, increase the value, and increase the wealth creation flowing around. You guys are taking advantage of that. >> Absolutely, so with AppDynamics, we're helping customers with their Cloud migration to Amazon. You know, applications really are becoming the foundation of the modern business and understanding the performance of those applications, the users, the application, the business metrics themselves is critical, as this really signifies the brand for most companies. So as they are moving their workloads over to Amazon, it's critical they really understand how things are performing and make sure that they perform well in that new environment. And so the relationship we've had together has been phenomenal in helping that happen. >> (mumbles) done a lot of work, though, on the app side. And it's interesting, and the hottest trend right now that we're seeing, certainly in this Cloud conversion, IT in particular, as well as other markets, I mentioned IOT and AI, obviously hot as hell as well, is the instrumentation of the data is super critical. >> Yes, yes. >> And that is not new to you guys. But it's now becoming apparent that it's easier to do in the Cloud than it was before. >> Sure. >> What do you see? I mean you must look at the Cloud and be like, man this is so awesome, horizontally scalable, but all the goodness of having that instrumentation. What's your take on that? >> Right so it really starts with that. Instrumentation provides you the insights in real time necessary to take advantage of the optimizations that Cloud provides you, so the ability to scale up, scale down. If you know how your application is performing in real time, you take that guesswork out. And I think that's really what, leveling AppDynamics with Amazon really gives you that capability, the best of both worlds. >> Yeah, Barry, the application monitoring space, you have a number of really good partners here. Amazon also has some of their own pieces. How do you balance that sort of engagement? We've seen, you know the partner summit I saw some really good slides up there. We've interviewed a number of the partners of this space, but want to get your viewpoint. Well, first, AppDynamics makes their software available as SaaS, which is a pretty quickly growing trend, with all sorts of customers, you know, particularly enterprise customers wanting to move to that model. And then we work with AppDynamics to come up with a specific use case for the workloads that are migrating over, particularly with customers that are migrating large amount of workloads as they're shutting down data centers. And we make those available to those customers and provide them with a choice. And once we document that technical use case we can put that in the hands of our SAs, our solution architects, Proserv teams, and consulting partners like 2nd Watch and Slalom, Accenture, and Deloitte, to help advise the customer on which third-party software meets those workload needs best. >> Thomas, you know, Cisco's got a pretty sizable presence at this show. I was mentioning, you know, this is the second recently acquired company of Cisco that we've had on the program this week. I mean, they spent billions of dollars on AppDynamics, bunch of others. Cisco has always been an acquisitive company, but, you know, what is the kind of acceleration of Cloud, mean for Cisco. How are companies like AppDynamics helping along that shift for Cisco's business? >> Yeah, that's a great question. I think the way to think about it is, Cisco's really been helping our customers with their networking, their data center, security, but it was a critical missing component for us was really understanding application intelligence and how end users and businesses are impacted by the infrastructure. And so, bringing AppDynamics into part of Cisco, which we're running it fairly autonomously, but having the ability to connect to other infrastructure-related products to provide more real-time intelligence is a key part of the strategy. So bringing those things together and then complementing that with our Cloud partners, and the marketplace has really made that super easy for us now, from the context of making it easier to buy AppDynamics with AWS. That combination has been super powerful. >> Talk about the marketplace dynamics that you're trying to create, Barry, because you obviously got a good thing going. What are you doing to create the incentives, to create a frictionless environment? Because obviously you don't want any friction, but you got growth. >> Barry: We do. >> What are some of the speed bumps you're hitting? How are you addressing it? How are you with AppDynamics of the world? Is there incentive programs? Is there joint selling? How should partners think about that? And then I'd love to get your reaction to Amazon's programs. >> Well there's one key thing that we launched a couple of weeks ago. It's called seller private offers. And what it enabled us to do, and it was kind of a missing piece, was for a seller to work with a customer, so AppDynamics working with a customer, to negotiate on best price and terms for a longer period of duration of use, one, two, or three year subscription. That enabled the customer to get the best terms and price to run the software on AWS, and it also enabled sales teams, for example, working with Cisco and AppDynamics, to sell in a way that they were more accustomed to once a customer was familiar with the software. And then we announced... >> Renewals' a recurring revenue. >> Right. >> Right. >> They're smiling over there. >> And then we paired it with enterprise contract that we launched on Tuesday. Which was a negotiated set of terms to remove a ton of friction around legal negotiation of standard contract terms between software vendors and enterprise buyers, and so we're trying to innovate between both the buyer and the seller at all times. >> So until you can actually voice order product, you're gonna always be chippin' away at the friction? >> Barry: Always. >> Thomas: Right. >> All right, your reaction to Amazon, how are they a partner? You can tell the truth even though he's standing right there. >> Thomas: No absolutely. >> Come on... >> I mean, here's the key thing. We've been a marketplace partner for several quarters now. We're seeing huge transactions flow through that, and as part of that, the two key things that we're finding. The first one is the deal sizes are expanding, and largely because there's a lot of comfort from the end customers at the combination of AppDynamics working closely with AWS, ensuring those systems are integrated, that they work well together, they can be procured together, there's common bill. Those kind of capabilities have really helped us. The second thing is, we're proving that we can help accelerate the pace of Cloud migration. So, we're seeing on average our enterprise customers are getting through the Cloud 30% faster by using the two solutions together. >> So they like the buying methodology. >> Thomas: That's right. >> And speed of deployment. >> The speed of deployment and the fact that when they get there, they know their environment's going to be very stable. They have that additional assurance because they've got the performance monitoring metrics before they make the move, and then once they get there they have it. Because the AppDynamics really provides you that visibility across both. So, thinking about it from... >> So I saw the announcement, it was one click was it Andy who put up one click something? Was that a marketplace deal? I saw it on the keynote yesterday. It might have been one click (mumbles), I don't know. >> I don't think it was associated with the marketplace. We do still have that feature. Yeah, so. >> So things are going good? You're happy? >> Yeah, I mean a great example, NASDAQ spoke yesterday with Barry, Heather Abbott, and talked about their experience about moving their workloads over to AWS and how AppDynamics was instrumental to help them understand the dependencies of their environment before they made that transition. There are so many great examples of that, and that's why we think... >> All right, so final question for you, then I know Stu wants to jump in, Andy Jassy told me when I interviewed him last week for the event, customers vote with their workloads. What are the workloads that you're seeing moving over? What kinds of workloads fit into this new style, this new guard model of... >> I would say a couple years ago it was primarily new apps, building from the ground up. Now it's the mission critical stuff. It's the important things that people are running their businesses on, moving those over, and I think that's part of the reason why AppD is becoming more integrated into that, is because AppD instruments generally the most critical applications, not necessarily the third and fourth tier. So the typical workloads that impact revenue, impact customer engagements, are ones that are now being... >> So you're at the center of all the migrations? >> Thomas: Yeah. >> Awesome. >> So the one, can't let you go without asking, beyond just getting to the Cloud, I'm wondering what you're seeing from customers and how you're working with them on moving along from just instances to containerization and even serverless. >> Yeah, in the enterprise space we're definitely seeing the phase one was just move the existing VMs over. Now it's refactoring and reestablishing the products and the architectures based on the modern technologies like Lamba and Serverless, and other things. It's all great. It's a really exciting time. >> Thomas Wyatt, chief strategy officer AppDynamics, happy partner obviously (mumbles) workloads are moving to the Cloud. Barry Russell, general manager of the place making it happen. >> Congratulations, Barry, on your success. >> Thank you. >> And AppDynamics >> Thank you. >> Congratulations on your acquisition with Cisco. Big deal. You guys are driving a big part of their transformation. >> Barry: Yes. Congratulations to you guys as well. >> Thank you. >> Of course, Amazon's taking no prisoners here at re:Invent, 45,000 people. I'm John Furrier (mumbles) more live coverage from day 3 after this short break.

>>Live from San Diego, California at the cube covering to clock in cloud native con brought to you by red hat, the cloud native computing foundation and its ecosystem Marsh. >>Welcome back. This is the cubes coverage of CubeCon cloud native con here in San Diego. I am Stu Miniman. He is Justin Warren and our guest for this segment, a cube alumni VJ pan day, who's the vice president and CTO of cloud inside Cisco. Also on the keynote stage this morning. Be joined. Thanks so much for joining us again. Welcome. Pleasure to be here. All right, so, uh, we've got to see the sequel on stage. Uh, network. Please evolve. Part two. Uh, there were magnets involved. Uh, there were some XKCD Keke humor in there, which, uh, definitely this audience appreciates it. Um, but part to come on the networking industry is known for its lightening fast changes. Um, Oh, maybe I'm thinking of this ecosystem, but um, it could give her audience a little bit of a taste of, uh, you know, the, the, the, the premise, uh, of, of what you were talking about. >>Absolutely. I think, uh, so back in Barcelona I talked about how networking needed to evolve for a cloud native environment and the whole idea behind that talk was we've gone from physical infrastructure, which we call infant one dot Oh two virtual, which is in for two Dato. And in that transition, really nothing much changed except taking everything that was physical or even in the application space, taking monolithic apps and just wrapping everything up in a VM. And that was okay because you got a few things around a agility, you got disaster recovery, you got a few aspects that you would like. But largely things are monolithic largely, especially on the networking side, things were still being touted as routers or via routers, switches or switches, mr music, BGP and so on and so forth. Now when you're looking at containers and microservices, and I'm not talking about containers, which are just different shifts, but if you're breaking the application down into microservices or you're using silver less to build your applications, the app is getting thinner and thinner and much more distributed. >>That's where there's a complete reimagining of the application. There's a rearchitecture and because of that, the operational architecture is changing because you can't just have a database admin. The database is now 500 components. So you need your SRE organizations, your DevOps organizations to be aligned to that. You also, and therefore your organization changes because you're following this architecture paradigm shift. Yeah. So when that happens, how can the infrastructure remain the same? So you cannot use the concepts that you've used for physical and virtual networking, which have aggregate statistical networks to solve an application networking problem. Right? >>So w w one of the big challenges there is enterprise especially they've got a lot of applications. >>When you talk about how many of them are modern apps, it's a very small segment. You know, we talk about, Oh, 20% of apps in the cloud. Well how many apps have been modernized? It's a smaller piece of that and we need to have the bridge to the customer in all of the places that they are and are going. And you know, cloud is not a destination. It's, it's an operational model. So how do I, how do I span all of the environment? And embrace them and still keep, keep, everything's moving forward to, to drive the business. That's a good question. So I think if you look at, so to your point, there is a small percentage of apps that are cloud native today. I don't think it's as small as 20% I think it's closer to around 40 but we may differ on that number. >>What we are seeing is that that number is only growing. So that's a trend to watch out for. And the other trend to watch out for is it's not just the mobile front end or the dashboard that's becoming cloud native, which was the case a couple of years ago. You're seeing databases, you're seeing a middleware, you're seeing data processing pipelines, things that are critical to our business, do all of the apps that are getting modernized and becoming cloud native. So that's one aspect. The other aspect is you might have a function that remains and legacy, so to speak and get replaced by a cloud native app that does the same thing. So you might not rewrite it, but you might replace it. So that's happening quite a bit. And so, but to your question, how do you connect all of this, these things together? Cloud native is a philosophy. It's a way of operating an infrastructure is a way of building in the redundancy we have building in velocity. So that philosophy needs to percolate not just the new cloud native apps, but you need to uplift the old infrastructure and let them become cloud native as well. So things that we're doing with an assignment, things that we're doing with the attrition and our dynamic and a whole bunch of efforts within Cisco are geared towards uplifting the older gear on all the infrastructure in order applications. Do a client cloud native operational paradigm. >>Yeah, that's true. You mentioned part of that requires changing the way human behavior works, that it changing the way you operate a lot of this infrastructure. So it's not just about purchasing a particular tool, it's about actually using different tools in completely new and different ways. So what are some of the ways that Cisco is changing the kinds of products that it offers to customers that encourages them to operate their infrastructure in a new way? >>So let me start with the networking piece and since it's fresh and new from the keynote today, uh, one of the things, if you think about again, the developers and how they deal with applications, they want the network to be simple, available and pervasive. And so if you think about this in couple of tiers, so there is a physical infrastructure that sits below everything that is again, pervasive across a multicloud environment. And it goes all the way from your handset to the data center, including the edge compute locations. It connects everything together. So taking a network like that and simplifying it in terms of automation, in terms of how dev ops can handle that networking subsystem, in terms of how do you ensure that policy is consistent across this common environment, that is something that Cisco is pushing pretty deeply. So we have this multi-domain architecture that allows you to push policy across the entire network handset to the data center through the van. >>So that's one aspect of it. But above this sits a platform layer that is closer to the developer. And this is why things like NSM comment, because the developers don't want to deal with the bells and whistles at the physical or the virtual infrastructure layer. They are defining the CRDs. They are defining that if I'm a microservice, I want to talk to another microservice, all of bare metal orders over less function. I just want to connect a to B within my application. I don't care about every other application that exists in your infrastructure. And these are the attributes that I want from that connection. So it's like a watch and Wyatt like a bus and these are the attributes to the bus and that's what we're trying to handle from a cloud native perspective. So that's what you see from the NSM side of things. >>So, uh, we, we just had to go on talking about the database and talking about a cloud native database. And, uh, the way he really describes it is, you know, it's baked into Kubernetes even though Vitez doesn't have to have Coobernetti's. And he said he even had customers that it made it possible for them to be able to, uh, have that database from one cloud to another without needing to talk to his team. Uh, and it's, it's made things possible. Help us understand how the network service mesh fit into solutions like that. >>Absolutely. And I think if you think, I mean, I love the Virtus project they've graduated, so congratulations to them. But I think, uh, the concept behind that is taking the multicloud aspect of everything that we do to a layer which is higher in the stack. So we've talked about multicloud in terms of networking, in terms of compute, uh, in terms of infrastructure primarily, but looking at a database which is multicloud looking at storage, which is multicloud. I think that's the next layer of evolution in this entire stack. But one of the examples that are talked about in my keynote, very simple, but as, or not retest, it doesn't matter. Something that every organization wants to do is dig databases that are scattered across a multitude of on-prem or a multitude of clouds and just replicate. And to do that replication, the amount of pain that any organization needs to go through today. >>It's just like programming with magnets. Going back to my keynote where you're dealing with the technical complexities of doing this, you're talking to so many routers and switches, you're talking to firewalls, you're talking to colo providers, you're talking to cloud providers and especially every tore provider has their own compliance and configuration paradigms. So all of that being different. That's just the technical complexity within one organization. They like multitudes of teams. They have dev ops, net ops, tech ops, they all need to talk to each other. Even within Cisco we talked to our Cisco ID guys. Just dev ops is like 20 teams. There's not one team. So just imagine talking to all of those teams trying to fix this thing and trying to get just database application, simple problem like that. And then process complexity. So all of those things exist. And with NSM, all you do is say, just put me on the Santa Sam domain that lets me talk securely to every other database on the same domain, wherever they happen to be in a different cluster within the same data center or geographically somewhere else in the globe. I really don't care. And NSM basically takes care of that. So that's the simplicity that we're going after. And it's a simplicity that walks across. There are seven meshes across simple layer three problems like this across service provider use cases across a whole bunch of use cases. >>Hmm. Yeah. And it just, the simple act of moving data around you would think that we'd managed to solve that problem by now, but it turns out it's hard problem to solve and being able to connect this myriad of new services together to one why we have technologies like service mesh is changing the nature of the way we operate it. And, and as you say, putting tools in place to automate a lot of the mechanisms that go on so that we as humans don't have to do it anymore because it's just not attractive or attractable problem for the humans to deal with. And I think a lot of organizations are still wrestling with that concept of, of how they can change the way that they do things so that the humans aren't going to be able to do this. It's not actually a matter of choice. They are going to be going and having, they're going to go and do different things, new and interesting things, but they're going to be at a higher level of abstraction. And I think a lot of people are very concerned by that, that we may not have jobs anymore. No, no, no, you can't have these jobs. It is just not possible for humans to do them. We need to get you to go and do these other new jobs so that we can get on with solving these business problems. >>That's a very good problem point. And I think, uh, so prior to this role I was at Google and I ran the networking infrastructure for a while and then I ended up writing the automation and telemetry stack for running that infrastructure. And one of the things that we used to say back there was, if you are infrastructure depends on humans to scale out, then there aren't enough humans to hire. Even if you have the dollars to invest, there aren't enough humans to hire to fix that problem in a human centric way. So one of the things that we are doing at Cisco for example, is this whole push towards intent based networking. And to me that's an evolution from where SDN was to now where IBM is, because SDN has had these very specific connotations around it with said software defined separation of control and data. >>It gets into this very heated debates about what this is. To me, the answer is actually intent based networking. We did some of that back at Google as well, which is treat the entire network as a singular entity and operated in a very declarative fashion. That's what this is, regardless of whether they're built in a control data separated with all their traditional BGP networks, so we are pushing IBN in a very big way and the whole problem statement there is to your point, humans can't comprehend the complexities that arise. One one, one quick topic where we were sending telemetry data through SNMP, now we are sending telemetry data was the streaming and the amount of data that any operator receives is just through the roof. What are you going to do with it? So humans can't deal with that kind of complexity. So putting formal verification, formal models, formal closed loop automation systems with AI in place. I think that's the only way to go forward at least on large scale networks and on the other side, I think on the application side, like I said, being deep and narrow and being very selfish about the application that you're trying to connect to simplifies the problem because as an app developer I'm only concerned about this particular app and have what it connects to and that is going to attract a book from a human perspective. >>Yes. thank you so much. I think anyone that's attended this conference can definitely agree with that. There is a flood of information that no one person could keep up with. So, uh, thank you so much for joining us. We hope that, uh, your journey of network please evolve, uh, that we had comes to a successful conclusion in the near future. Absolutely. Look forward to chatting with you again soon for Justin Warren. I am Stu Miniman. Uh, stay tuned. We're going to wrap up day two, and we have a whole nother day tomorrow of our coverage here from CubeCon cloud native con 2019 in San Diego. Thank you for watching the queue.