>>The cube presents, Coon and cloud native con Europe, 2022. Brought to you by red hat, the cloud native computing foundation and its ecosystem partners. >>Welcome to Licia Spain and cube con cloud native con 2022 Europe. I'm Keith Townsend, along with Paul Gillon senior editor, enterprise architecture for Silicon angle. We're gonna talk to some amazing folks. Day two coverage of Q con cloud native con Paul. We did the wrap up yesterday. Great. A great back and forth about what en Rico about yesterday's, uh, session. What are you looking for to today? >>I'm looking for, uh, to understand better, uh, how Kubernetes is being put into production, the types of applications that are being built on top of it. Yesterday, we talked a lot about infrastructure today. I think we're gonna talk a little bit more about applications, including with our first guest. >>Yeah, I was speaking our first guest. We have ish Degan CPO chief product officer at Hazelcast Hazelcast has been on the program before, but you, this is your first time in the queue, correct? >>It, it is Keith. Yeah. Well, >>Welcome to been Cuban. So we're talking data, which is always a fascinating topic. Containers are, have been known for not being supportive of stateful applications. At least you shouldn't hold the traditional thought. You shouldn't hold stateful data in containers. Tell me about the relationship between Hazel cast and containers we're at Cuan. >>Yeah, so a little bit about, uh, Hazelcast. We are a real time data platform and, uh, we are not a database, but a data platform because we basically allow, uh, data at rest as well as data in motion. So you can imagine that if you're writing an application, you can basically query and join a data coming in events, as well as data, which might have been persisted. So you can do both stream processing as well as, you know, low latency data access. And, and this platform of course, is supported on all the clouds. And we kind of delegate the orchestration of this kind of scale out system to Kubernetes. Um, and you know, that provides a resiliency and many things which go along with that. >>So you say you don't, you're not a database platform. What are you used for to manage the data? >>So we are, uh, we are memory first. So we are, you know, we started with low latency applications, but then we realized that real time has really become a business term. It's it's more of a business SLA mm-hmm, <affirmative>, it's really the, we see the opportunity, the punctuated change, which is happening in the market today is about real time data access to real time. I mean, there are real time applications. Our customers are building around real time offers, um, realtime thread detection. I mean, just imagine, you know, one of our customers like B and P par bars, they have, they basically originate a loan while the customer is banking. So you are in an ATM machine and you swipe your card and you are asking for, you know, taking 50 euros out. And at that point they can actually originate a custom loan offer based on your existing balance you're existing request and your credit score in that moment. So that's a value moment for them and they actually saw 400% loan origination go up because of that, because nobody's gonna be thinking about a credit, uh, line of credit after they're done banking. So it's in that value moment and we allow basically our data platform allows you to have fast access to data and also process incoming streams. So not before they get stored, but as they're coming in. >>So if I'm a developer and cuon is definitely a conference for developer and I, I come to the booth and I hear <inaudible>, that's the end value. I, I hear what I can do with my application. I guess the question is, how do I get there? I mean, uh, if it's not a database, how do I make a call from a container to, from my microservice to Hazel cath? Like, do I think of this as a, uh, a CNI or, or C CSI? How do I access >>PA care? Yeah. So, so we, uh, you know, we are, our server is actually built in Java. So a lot of the application which get written on top of the data platform are basically accessing through Java APIs. Or as you have a.net shop, you can actually use.net API. So we are basically an API first platform and SQL is basically the polyglot way of accessing data, both streaming data, as well as it store data. So most of the application developers, a lot of it is run done in microservices, and they're doing these fast get inputs for data. So they, they have a key, they want to get to a customer, they give a customer ID. And the beauty is that, um, while they're processing the events, they can actually enrich it because you need contextual information as well. So going back to the ATM example, you know, at that event happened, somebody swiped the card and ask for 50 euros, and now you want more information like credit score information, all that needs to be combined in that, in that value moment. >>So we allow you to do those joins and, you know, the contextual information is very important. So you see a lot of streaming platform out there, which just do streaming, but if you're an application developer, like you asked, you have to basically do call out to a streaming platform to get, um, to do streaming analytics and then do another call to get the context of that. You know, what is the credit score for this customer? But whereas in our case, because the data platform supports both streaming as well as data at rest, you can do that in one call and, you know, you don't want to have the operational complexity to stand out. Two different scale out servers is, is, is, is humongous, right? I mean, you want to build your business application. So, >>So you are querying data streaming data and data rest yes. In the same query >>Yes. In the same query. And we are memory first. So what happens is that we store a lot of the hot data in memory. So we have a scale out Ram based server. So that's where you get the low latency from. In fact, last year we did a benchmark. We were able to process a billion events a second, uh, with 99% of the latency under 30 milliseconds. So that kind of processing and that kind of power is, and, and the most important thing is determinism. I mean, you know, there's a lot of, um, if you look at real time, what real time is, is about this predictable latency at scale, because ultimately your, your adhering to a business SLA is not about milliseconds or microsecond. It's what your business needs. If your business needs that you need to deny or, uh, approve a credit credit card transaction in 50 milliseconds, that's your business SLA, and you need that predictability for every transaction. >>So talk to us about how how's this packaged in consumed. Cause I'm hearing a, a bunch of server Ram I'm hearing numbers that we're trying to adapt away from at this conference. We don't wanna see the onlay. We just want to use it. >>Yeah. So, so we kind of take a bit that, that complexity of managing this scale out, um, uh, uh, cluster, which actually utilizes Rams from each server. And then, you know, if you, you can configure it so that the hard set of data is in Ram, but the data, which is, you know, not so hard can actually go into a tiered storage model. So we are memory first. So, but what you are doing is you're doing simple, it's an API. So you do basically a crud, right? You create records, you read them through SQL. So for you, it's, it's, it's kind of like how you access that database. And we also provide you, you know, real time is also a journey. I mean, a lot of customers, you know, you don't want to rip their existing system and deploy another kind of scale out platform. Right? So we, we see a lot of these use cases where they have a database and we can sit in between the database, a system of record and the application. So we are kind of in between there. So that's, that's the journey you can take to real time. >>How does Kubernetes, uh, containers and Kubernetes change the game for real time analytics? >>Yeah. So, uh, Kubernetes does change it because what's hap first of all, we service most of the operational workloads. So it's, it's more on the, a lot of our customers. We have most, most of the big banks credit card companies in financial services and retail. Those are the two big sectors for us. And first of all, you know, a lot of these operational workloads are moving to the cloud and with move to the cloud, they're actually taking their existing applications and, and moving to, you know, one of the providers and to kind of orchestrate this scale out platform, which does auto scaling, that's where the benefit comes from mm-hmm <affirmative>. And it also gives them the freedom of choice. So, you know, the Kubernetes is, you know, a standard which goes across cloud providers. So that gives them the benefit that they can actually take their application. And if they want, they can actually move it to a different, a different cloud provider because we take away the orchestration complexity, you know, in that abstraction layer. >>So what happens when I need to go really fast? I mean, I, I, I need, uh, I'm looking at bare metal and I'm looking at really scaling a, a, a homogeneous application in a single data center set of data centers. Is there a bare metal play here? >>Yes. There, there, there are some very, very, uh, like if you want microsecond latency, mm-hmm, <affirmative>, um, you know, we have customers who actually store two to four terabytes in Ram and, and they can actually stand up. Um, you know, again, it depends on what kind of deployment you want. You can either scale up or scale out, scaling up is expensive, you know, because those boxes are not cheap, but if you have a requirement like that, where there is sub millisecond or microphone latency requirement, you could actually store the entire data set. I mean, a lot of the operational data sets are under four terabytes. So it's not uncommon that you could actually take the entire operational transactional data set, actually move, move that to a pure Ram. But, uh, I think now we, we also see that these operational workloads are also, there's a need for analytics to be done on top as well. >>I mean, we, going back to the example I gave you, so this, this, uh, customer is not only doing stream crossing, they're also influencing a machine learning algorithm in that same, in the same kind of cycle in the life cycle. So they might have trained a machine learning or algorithm on a data lake somewhere, but once they're ready, they're actually influencing the ML algorithm in our kind of life cycle right there. So, you know, that that really brings analytics and transactions kind of together because after all transactions are where the real, you know, insights are. >>Yeah. I'm, I'm struggling a little bit with this, with these two different use cases where I have transactional basically a transactional database or transactional data platform alongside a analytics platform. Those are two, like they're two different things. I have a, you know, I, I have spinning rust for one, and then I have memory and, and MBME for another. Uh, and that requires tuning requires DBAs. It requires a lot of overhead, there seems to be some type of secret sauce going on here. >>Yeah. Yeah. So, I mean, you know, we, we basically say that if you are, if you have a business case where you want to make a decision, you know, you, the only chance to succeed is where you are not making a decision tomorrow based on today's data. Right? I mean, the only way to act on that data is today. So the act is a keyword here. We actually let you generate a realtime offer. We, we let you do credit card fraud detection. In that moment, the analytics is about knowing less about acting on it. Right? Most of our applications are machine critical. They're acting on real time. I think when you talk about like the data lakes there, there's actually a real time there as well, but it's about knowing, and we believe that the operational side is where, you know, that value moment is there, you know, what good is, is to know about something tomorrow, you know, if something wrong happened, I mean, it, yeah, so there's a latency squeeze there as well, but we are on, on more on the kind of transaction and operational side. >>I gotcha. Yeah. So help me understand, like integrations. A lot of the, the, when I think of transactions, I'm thinking of SAP, Oracle, where the process is done, or some legacy banking or not legacy or new modern banking app, how does the data get from one platform to a, to Hazel cast so I can make those >>Decisions? Yeah. So we have, uh, this, the streaming engine, we have has a whole bunch of connectors to a lot of data sources. So in fact, most of our use cases already have data sources underneath there, their databases there's KA connectors, you know, joining us because if you look at it, events is, are comprised of transactions. So something, a customer did, uh, a credit card swipe, right. And also events events could be machine or IOT. So it's really unique connectivity and data ingestion before you can process that. So we have, uh, a whole suite of connectors to kind of bring data in, in our platform. >>We've been talking a lot, these last couple of days about, uh, about the edge and about moving processing capability closer to the edge. How do you enable that? >>Yeah. So edge is actually very, very relevant because of what's happening is that, um, you know, if you, if you look at like a edge deployment use case, um, you know, we have a use case where data is being pushed from these different edge devices to cloud data warehouse. Right. But just imagine that you want to be filtering data at the, at, at where it is being originated from, and you wanna push only relevant data to, to maybe a central data lake where you might want to do, you know, train your machine learning models. Mm-hmm <affirmative> so that at the edge, we are actually able to process that data. So Hazel cast will allow you to actually write a data pipeline and do stream processing so that you might want to just push, you know, a part or a subset of data, which applies by the rules. Uh, so there's, there's a big, um, uh, I think edge is, you know, there's a lot of data being generated and you don't want like garbage and garbage out there's there's, there is there's filtration done at the edge. So that only the relevant data lands in a data, data lake or something like that. >>Well, Monash, we really appreciate you stopping by realtime data is an exciting area of coverage for the queue overall from Valencia Spain, I'm Keith Townsend, along with Paul Gillon, and you're watching the queue, the leader in high tech coverage.

>>from the >>Cube Studios in Palo Alto and Boston connecting with thought leaders all around the world. This is a cube conversation >>over and welcome to this special cube coverage of AWS Partner Awards show. I'm John Furrier, host of The Cube. We're here in our Palo Alto, California studio is doing the remote interviews with our quarantine Cruelty during this time of covert were remote with the best remote Work solution award for AWS Partner Awards goes to Tyler Technologies in the city of Alvin Municipal Court. And we have Sandy, Peter's vice president, general manager of virtual courts and in code court system. Sandy's here to talk about that. And Sonya Gates, who is a city of albums. Mutual court court administrator. Welcome. And congratulations for the best promote work solution. We're remote. Congratulations. Okay, so, CNI, I'll start with you. Tyler Technologies, You're the general manager of the encode Court. This is a vert. This is a solution that you're deploying with the city of Alvin to do some things. Take a minute to explain what you guys are doing together. What is your group of Tyler do And how is it working with City of Album? >>John Tyler Technologies is just completely focused on ah, local, state and federal government software and services. And, uh, particularly the code court application focuses on municipal court, which is what Sonya is the court administrator for Calvin. We have about 900 clients across the U. S that do that same thing. We had this idea about coming up with a remote solution for, ah, ability for someone toe instead of having to go to court to see a judge that they could do that remotely and really have the same experience. And so we sort of launched off on that Ah, and worked with several different of our clients and came up with a way for for that happens on you. I got involved in it very early on and has been instrumental in helping us continue to make it successful. >>When you talk about the city of albums based court system I've seen with Koven, people are sheltering in place and they're not moving around much. You have to have a solution. Talk about the partnership with Tyler. How did this come together? How do you guys were? Take us through that. >>Well, we we have a great relationship with Tyler Technologies. They are very instrumental in our day to day processing. They send out an email with the idea due to Coben, And as soon as we receive the email, we decided that was the best solution for for our court. And we just immediately jumped on board with it so we could resolve cases and not get behind. >>So the virtual court means okay, I get a ticket, I want to appeal it. No way would show up. And now I can't. So it interfaces and take me through the solution. And what is a best fit involved in some some things on the cloud. >>It definitely is on the cloud, John. And, um and that's exactly right. So if you get ah, you get a citation, sometimes you may want to appeal that sometimes you just wanna find out what your options are, and you are going to go appear before a judge. You can do that remotely now, through this through our application, it supports all the video. You can upload documents, exchange those ah, supporting documents. Ah, and ah. And then it interfaces with our case management system so that a sea change is we made on the case. They're reflected and the defendant can see those. And so it just really the whole idea is remotely being ableto go before the judge find out what your options are. Go through that process. And then at the very end, it gives them a way. The completely take care of that case on Within a few minutes, it could be completely resolved. >>So take us through the city of Alvin's court system there. What's the challenges that you have? Um And what was some of the feedback when you first brought this out? Take us through what happened? >>Well, to be honest, it was for us, it was unknown territory. We were a little nervous. We were a little scared to do something of this sort. But with the situation at hand, we had to figure out something, and this was the best fit for us. There was other options available, but we we prefer to stay within Tyler and utilize the system to its fullest. So that why we just said, Okay, let's do this. I have a judge. That's amazing. That is very tech savvy. And he was on board and my city manager. So just working with Tyler each way. You know, each step of the way, you know, in them comforting us in a sense, you know, to let us know. Hey, it's okay. We're here. Each step of the way will be built this together. And that's kind of where we started with the whole project. >>So this is a low hanging fruit. Obviously, it's not Jury, I'm assuming not a jury kind of situations. More of other non jury activities, right? >>It's the day to day court, you know, non jury. We're not doing any during Charles right now until after the governor allows us. So it's just the regular, you know, pre trials, the attorney dockets, arrangements and those sorts of cases. >>I'd be love to be on the planning sessions As you start to roll out the software for jury selection. We'll go into that kind of like what you're looking to look like, You know, it's going to be a digital surveillance. I don't know. It could be crazy, but this >>is the >>future. This is what we're talking about here. This is cloud scale. One of the benefits of cloud is is taking things and doing experiments. We hear that all the time. What's take us through the judge. So you see these tech savvy of these, like Zoom like, calls it like Is there a workflow trying? Envision what stood up in terms of the encode virtual courtside? Sandy, Sonia, What's What's it like? What's that? Take me through the experience? >>Well, everything's tied in together where a zoom and other options out there it's separated from your software so that, you know, that was one of the parts of going through Tyler with this virtual port is because everything's tied into one. We don't have to enter data or anything. After the dock, it's over. It's all live our forms. As soon as the defendant and the judge make an agreement, it put into TCM where the defendant can see it live, signed the orders and immediately get it back to us. And there's no delay time. There's no downtime, Um, and it's housed in one. So we're not having the mis data or, you know, it eliminates a lot of errors. Clerical errors are cases from being miss, >>and the judge handles everything right. He just he deals with the personal interactions reviews the data the defendant makes >>the clarity do a lot to. He's talking. And as he's talking, we're entering his orders as we speak. >>So it's real time thing. This is true agility. Sadie, this is the future. This is where the solutions start to get the scale. So what's next? What is the vision? How do you guys see the next step? Because, I mean, we all know that, you know, Kobe will be over soon. We hope faster than it's happened. But it will be a hybrid world. And I think this shows a template for efficiency. >>Yes. Yeah, I think that's a great point. And it is the future. We're going to continue to leverage our relationship with AWS, which has just been incredible to this process, and and, uh, we went way beyond what we were expecting just in terms of resource is and, uh, and helping us even just within our own development processes as we as we brought something to scale on in learning how to have a low test and, uh, really build applications that can scale out. And so we believe it is the future. And ah, Sonia makes a great point many times because they live in an area where sometimes there's other natural disasters, like hurricanes that can disrupt what's going on for them. Ah, but then also as you, as you just think about really what I would call a responsibility. As we move forward, we have a responsibility to provide ways that people can take care of things Ah, and not put themselves at risk. And a swee move into the future past Covad. Then s O. We're going to continue to leverage the technology that AWS provides the scalability, the how we can load test and everything. And, uh and it was really a no brainer for us toe run this application on the AWS services for us >>and Sonia. It's also not just about justice, not only getting the folks who are speeding and taking care of the penalties there, but it's also potentially for justice. If someone is not guilty or they want to get business has to continue, right? So this extends into the use case of remote hybrid the future because our work can be distributed now you have efficiencies. This is going to create a connected system which ultimately can be a connected community. >>Yeah, and it's going to reduce the failure to a rate here for court cases. Also, um, so that'll be less warrant more compliant, Um, in the easier. Well, it's a better relationship between us, the court and our defendants because they have the option of not having to leave work or miss appointments. You know, they can still attended their case and do other things that they need to do without taking a spin. A, you know, a couple of hours and sit in a room. And you know the court. >>That's a huge point. Sandy. This is about resource utilization on both sides, not just the court's and the city of Alvin on the municipal side. The citizens, it's efficiency. I mean, how many people don't show up because they can't get out of work or they need to make their paycheck or they have their their family? These need to be met. So all these things play into the psychology of of the way of life. This is digital life, virtualization of of the of life. It really is a big thing. >>Yeah. Yeah, I think I think you're exactly right. I mean you're hitting on some of the some great points. That's exactly right. And when you think about what has to happen for you to go and maybe go before a judge and ah, take off work, you've got to go buy traffic, find parking. You may have to have someone that takes care of your Children. There's there's all sorts of things that you're having to go through just to get down and and be in front of a judge that this can help with. And I think it's just one aspect to your point, really trying to think of, uh, really starting to help government think about how to be more customer centric out of provide some ways for people Teoh take care of of what they need to take care of. Uh and, uh and so we're really trying in your your point about connected communities. Is is a huge key point for us at Tyler, as we think of ways that we can help a community be more connected for sure. >>Well, you know, I'm huge into whole civic relationships and having a productive government and having citizens be served for that reasons and having it be a community. And this and now more than ever, transparency is helpful, right? This only helps things. So you guys are doing a really great job of one enabling a work environment remotely. In this case, it's for the courts to be operational. Is they need to be, But it clearly can extend. So, Sanjay, I gotta ask you the question. I'd love to get your commentary on surprises when you rolled this out. You know where people like Oh, my God, no one's ever going to use it or it's just too techy. Or has there been any pleasant surprises or things that surprised you that you didn't think was gonna happen to >>give us >>some kind of commentary on some observations that you've seen from from remote working, rolling out the best remote work solution? >>It's been very interesting. Um, we read our actual first defendant. He was elderly, and so we were kind of concerned. Okay, well, we know how to connect, you know, and he did amazing. So that's kind of where we knew if if we could reach the older generation and he can connect all these younger defendants and you know, younger people what shouldn't have any issues. So he was, you know, we explained to him, Hey, you're our first defendant. This is new to us. It's new to you. And he did awesome. So that kind of gave us the confidence we needed to pursue it even more and push it out there and give the defendants options. There's been, um we've looked. Some people forget, and so do I. That were on camera. And, you know, we see up with this, um, they forget their vehicle, you know, made it a few bumps, but it was like walking in the background. Yeah. Um, so it's been It's been an experience, but a pleasant experience. And it gave us where we didn't want a backlog of cases. There are over and having the virtual option through Tyler has We were like, Oh, it first started. We got behind until we launched about. We had about 800 cases we got behind on. And then as soon as we launched out virtual port. Now we're caught up, my courts running smooth, everything's great, and there's no backlog of cases. >>Clear. The backlog of the question I want to ask is that elderly first a user that did he or she get an early adopter discount on the sentence? >>Fine. Yeah, I was shocked. >>I kind of resent the elderly remark. I think he's referring to me. >>No, no, no, he was and he was in his eighties. >>Okay, I feel I feel young men while you guys congratulations. I like to get your parting thoughts. Just with cloud technology. A lot of other folks out there are looking at re imagining public service specifically around these times where there's a lot of emotional stress, like you got back long. You don't want to have the court get back. You can see that people don't want tickets hanging out there. But that kind of encapsulate people's feelings right now. And I think remote citizenship is coming. Just your thoughts on how you see this as a beginning starting point for cloud computing enabling the efficiencies, the solutions and the applications for more connected community experience. So we'll start with you. >>Okay. Um, I can see this. This is the way we're going to keep things. We like the option. The flexibility that are defendants or citizens have, um it it's opened our eyes And if you're if there's other courts out there that are kind of hesitant to go ahead and jump in and do it, I strongly recommend Just do it. It's It's scary in the very beginning because a lot of us, we're not used to it. But after you get through it and you go through the changes, it's It's so working in the end and you'll see such a more of a compliance for both sides and you know, it reduces the stress on staff. Having to send out Mel notice is, you know, for fire to appears and stuff of that sort produced warrants. So it's been a win win all the way around. Um, so if I could reach any court out there, that's kind on the line of doing that. Just just do it, >>Alright? Yeah, great. Sandy >>Gun and yeah, John. For us, Cloud is the future. I mean, every every application we have. Ah, we're actively working. If it's not already a cloud based solution, it will be Ah, and And we're a huge believer in the scalability. But But when you look at applications like this is as an example, Ah Tyler, virtual court, where it's really a win win situation. It's it's better for the court. They can continue to carry on their business. It's better for the citizen because now they can actually take care of something that they weren't going to be able to take care of in the past. And, Ah, and as we continue to find Win Win, uh, solutions cloud based solutions, they're going to be at the core of that in terms of just how easy it is to say excess and roll out. So it's a big part of our future, and we believe it's a big part of of our customer future as well. >>Well, congratulations. Modernization has positive impacts if done right, more times freed up to work on maybe personal things and connect those communes and bring people together. Congratulations. Tyler Technologies in the City of Album for the best remote work solution. It's the court system. Get those tickets paid, clear that backlog. And now you've got all the time in the world. So you take I work on other things. What do >>you do with your free time? I'm gonna take a vacation. Thank >>you so much. For thanks. Conversation and again. Congratulations. Thanks for time. >>Thank you. >>Okay, this is the Cube's coverage of AWS Public Sector Partners. Awards show I'm John Furrier with best remote work solution. Thanks for watching. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

>>from the Cube Studios in >>Palo Alto and Boston connecting with thought leaders all around the world. This is a cube conversation. Hi. I'm stupid, man. And welcome to a cube conversation. I'm coming to you from our Boston area studio. Happy to welcome to the program. First time guest on the program. Francis Mattis. He is the vice president of engineering at Pensando. Francis. Thanks so much for joining us. >>Thank you. Good to be here. All >>right. So, Frances, you and I actually overlapped. Ah, you know, some of the companies who work with, you know, if anybody familiar with Pensando, you have worked with some of the mpls team over the years through some of those spin ins, but for our audience, give us a little bit about your background. You know, what brought you to help and be part of the team that you started pensando? >>Sure. Yeah. Yeah. So I started my career with Advanced Micro Devices in the mid nineties, got out of school, really wanted to build micro processors. And so, Andy, being in Austin, Texas, and be going to ls you for undergrad was perfect sort of alignment. And so I got to say M. D and Austin built K five worked on that team or kind of team with K seven. And, uh, when I came out to California to help with K, and that brought me to California. And then we got into the dot com era and and being a A and B fighting intel, so to speak, seemed like a hard battle. And so, with the dot com era coming, I just saw this perfect opportunity to jump into the Internet. And so that's how we got into building Internet and data communications equipment, went to the show on systems. We talked a little bit about that earlier, and that got me into storage. From there, I got into a company called on GMO, which was building fibre channel sand equipment. So built chips there, and I got to know the Mpls team there. I always say they hired me off the street. And from that point on, while we've been together since Jews 1001 So 19 years, yeah. Yeah, and I've been building silicon with them and systems for almost 20 years now. So we had quite a journey. Yeah, it's been fun. Great >>stuff. Yeah, you know it's going back, you know, niche on talking about ice scuzzy. You know, in the networking world, you know, it's a little bit of a dark arts in general for most people, you know, understanding the networking protocols and all the various pieces and three and four letter acronyms aren't something that most people are familiar with. Pensando, I'm curious. You know what? You know, networking In general, you're like, I work on Internet stuff and we're the tubes that, you know, Things go around. So when when you describe pensando, you know how to explain that to the people that maybe aren't deep into East, west, south, over on under underlay protocols? >>Yeah, absolutely. So for me, pensando was kind of the sort of the culmination of all the things I've done in my career processing, you know, being able to build compute engines that have programmable, starting with microprocessors, being able to do storage and storage networking with Andy on no, we build a computer with druva and the virtualization layers around the Ethernet interfaces in the adapter with what was really our first smart nick, Um, in 6 4007 timeframe and then with STN in CNI, all of these elements kind of came together. These multiple different layers in the infrastructure stack, if you will, and so pensando for me. What was interesting was the explosion of scale in both space and time with the advent of, let's say, 25 gig 50 gig 100 gig to the server, the notion of very dense computing on in each rack and the need for very high scale After doing all of these technologies and seeing where silicon kind of started to fall in place, I was 16 centimeter. It seemed that bringing this kind of technology to the edge very low power with sort of an end to end security architecture and to end policy engine architecture, distributed services as we're doing all seem to naturally fit into place. And the cloud was already proving this morning when I say the cloud, I mean, the hyper scaler is like Amazon and Microsoft. We are already building these platforms. And so yeah, it dawned on me that, uh I didn't think this was possible unless you built the entire platform. We built the entire system. If you build any one piece, the market transition would take a lot longer. And I think this is true. In technology, history tends to repeat itself, starting with mainframes. When IBM built an entire computer and that built the entire computer, HP built these people. So these kinds of things, um, are important if you want to really push a market transition. And so pensando became this opportunity to take all of these things that I've done in my past life and bring them together in a way that would give a complete stack for the purposes of what I call the new computer, which is basically the data center. And so, um, you know, when my mom asks me, you know, what is it that you're doing? I said, Well, it's just imagine the computer you have right now and multiplying by thousands and thousands stacking in Iraq, and anyone can use it at any one time. And we provide the infrastructure and the mechanisms to be able to Teoh, orchestrate and control that very, very high speed layers. So I don't know if that was a long answer. >>No, no, no. It's fascinating stuff, and you know, when I look at the industry, you know cloud. Of course. Is that just make a wave? That changed the way a lot of people look at this. The way we architect things, there was this belief for a number of years. Well, you know, I'm going to go from this complicated mess that I had in my own data centers and cloud was going to be, you know, inexpensive and easy. And I don't think anybody thinks about inexpensive and easy when they look at cloud computing these days, then add edge into these environments. So I guess what I'm asking is, you know, today's environment, you know, we know I t always is additive. So I have various pieces that I need to put together. You talked about building platforms, and how can it be a complete stack? So companies like Oracle, you know, for many years said we can do everything from the silicon all the way up through your application. Amazon in many ways does the same thing they can. You can build everything on Amazon, but they built out their ecosystem. So how does Pensando fit into this? You know, multi cloud, multi dimensional multi vendor. >>So yeah, so that's a good question. so So one of the things we wanted to do is to be able to bring a systematic management layer two header Genius, beauty. And what I mean by that is in any enterprise data center, modern data center, you're gonna have multiple types of computing. You're gonna have virtual machines, you're gonna have their metal, and you're gonna have containers, or at least in the last, say, three or four years. Chances are you'll have some containers and moving there. And so what we wanted to do was be able to Brighton Infrastructure a management mechanism where all of these head Virginia's types of computing could be managed the same way with respect to policy. What I mean by policy is sort of this declarative or intent based model of I have declared what I'd like to see, whether that the network policy or and and security with data in motion and be able to plot apply it in a distributed manner. Across these different types of hetero genius elements, the cloud has the advantage that it's homogenous for the most part. I mean, they own the entire infrastructure and they can control everything on their now our systems will obviously manage the marginal systems as well, and in many ways that's easier. But bringing together these this notion of heterogeneity these types of computing with one management plane one type of interface for the operator, specifically the networking services operator, was fundamental. That and then the second thing is being able to bring the scale and speed to the edge. So a top of rack switch or something in the in the middle of the network is obviously very dense in terms of this Iot capability. So the silicon area that you spend building a high speed switch is really spent for the most part on the Iot, unless typically, 30 to 40% of the area will be Iot and the rest will be very much hardwired control protocols. We know that as we go to STN services and we want, uh, let's say software defined mechanisms in terms of what the policy looks like, what the protocols look like. The ability to change over time in the lifespan of the computer, which is 3 to 5 years, are you want that to be programmable, very difficult to apply a very dense scale in the core of the network. And so it was an obvious move to bring that to the edge where we could plug it into the server effectively, just like we did. Really? In the UCS system. Uh, no system. >>Yeah, some some really tough engineering challenges. You know, for the longest time, it was very predictable in the networking world, You know, you go from one gig to 10 gig. You know, there was a little discussion how we went the next step, whether, you know, 25 50 40 and 100 gig now. But you talk about containerized architectures. You talk about distributed systems with edge. Things change at a much smaller granular level and change much more frequently. So what are some of the design principles and challenges that you make sure that you're ready for what's happening today but also knowing that, you know, technology changes there always coming, and you need to be able to handle, You know, that next thing. Yeah, >>that's right. Yes. So, uh, I think part of the biggest challenges we have are around power with respect to design power. And then what is the usefulness of each transistor? So, um, when you you have sort of a scale of flexibility. See, views are the most flexible, obviously, but have probably the least performance in them. PG A's are pretty useful in terms of its flexibility, but not very dense in terms of its logic capability. And then you have hardwired a six, which are extremely dense, very much purpose built logic, but completely inflexible. And so the design challenge it was put in front of us is how do we find that sweet spot of extremely programmable, extremely flexible, but still having a cost profile that didn't look like an F PGA And God knows the benefits of the CPU. And and that's where this sort of this notion of domain specific processing came in, which is okay, well, if we're going to solve a few problems, we're going to solve them well. And those few problems are going to be we're gonna bring PC services. We're going to bring networking services. We're going to bring stories, services. We're gonna bring security services around the edge of the computer so that we can offload or let's say, partition correctly the computing problem in a data center. And to do that, we knew a core of sea views wasn't going to do a job that's basically borrowing from this guy to pay this other guy. Right? So what we wanted to do was bring this notion of domain specific processing, and that's where our design challenges came in, which is okay, So now we build around this language called P four, What is the most optimal way to pack? The most amount of threads are processing elements into the silicon while managing the memory bandwidth, which is obviously, you know, packet processing is it has been said to be embarrassingly parallel, which is true. However, the memory bandwidth is insane. And so how do we build a system that insurance that memory is not the bottleneck? Obviously, we're producing a lot of data or, uh, computing a lot of data. And so So these were some of our design challenges. All of that within a power envelope where this part of this device could sit at the edge inside of a computer within a typical power profiling by PC, a attached card in a modern computer. So that was a huge design challenge for us. >>Yeah, I'd love to hear, you know, it was a multi year journey toe solution. And I think of the old World. It was very much a hardware centric 18 to 24 months for design and all the tape out you need to do on this. Sounds like obviously there is still hardware, but it is more software driven. Then it would have been, you know, 10 years ago. So give us some of the ups and downs in that journey. Love to hear any. Any stories that you can share their Well, yeah, I >>think you know, good question. It's always there's always ups and downs in anything you do, especially in the start up. And I think one of the biggest challenges we we've faced is, uh, the exact hardware software boundary. So what is it that you want in hardware? What is it that you want in software And, uh, you know, one of the greatest assets and our company depends on who are the people. We have amazing software and hardware architects who work extremely well together because most of us have been together for so long. So, um, so that always helps when you start to partition the problem. We spent the first year of Pensando, which was basically 2017. The company was founded really thinking through this problem, would it for for all the problems, we wanted to solve the goals that were given to us and and security. Okay, so I want to be able to terminate TCP and initiate TLS connections. What's the right architecture for that? I want to be able to do storage off load and be able to provide encryption of data at rest data in motion. I want to be able to do compression these kinds of things. What's the right part of our software boundary for that? What do we what do we hardwire in silicon versus what we make it programmable and silicon, obviously, but still through a computing engine. And so we spent the first year of the company really thinking through those different partitioning problems, and that was definitely a challenge. And we spent a lot of time and and, uh, you helped me conference rooms and white boards figuring that out. And then 2018. The challenge there was now taking this architecture, this sort of technology substrate, if you will that we built and then executing on it, making sure that it was actually going to yield what we hope that would that we would be able to provide the services. When we talk about El four firewall at line rate, that's completely programmable. Uh, we achieved that. Can we do load balancing? And we do all of it with this before processing engine and the innovations we brought before satisfy all of these requirements we put for us. And so 2018 was really about execution. And there you always have. The challenge is in execution. In terms of, you know, things are going to go wrong. It's not. It's not. If it's when and then how do you deal with it? And so again, um, I would say the biggest challenge and execution is, uh, containing the changes. You know, it's so easy for things to change, especially when you're trying to really build a software platform right, because it's always easy to sort of kick the can and say we'll deal with that later and software. But we know that given what we're trying to do, which is build a system that is highly performance, um, you can't get that. Can you have to deal with it when it comes in. So we spend a lot of time doing performance analysis, making sure that all these applications we were building we're going t yield the right performance. And so that was quite a challenge. And then 2019 was kind of the year of shaping the product. Really lots of product design. Okay, now that we have this technology and it does these, he says that we wanted to do these pieces meaning services. What are all the different ways we can shake this product after talking to customers for, you know, months and months and months. You know, Sony is very much custom, customer driven customer centric. So we we were fortunate enough that we got to spend a lot of time with customers and then that brings us out of challenges, right? Because every customer has a unique problems and so I don't know how to reform this product around a solution that solves quite a bit of problems that really brings value. And so that was the those are the challenges in 2019 which we overcame. Now, obviously we have several releases that we've come out with already. We've got a six and the chips and the It's all there now. So now, 2020. Unfortunately, covitz here, But this is this is a year of growth. This is the year that we really bring it out into the world with our partners and our customers and show how this technology has been developed and benefit will benefit customers over over the next years. Two years. >>Frances really appreciate the insight there. Yeah, that that discussion of the hardware versus software brings back memories for May. Lots of heated debates. A CIO What? One of lines you know we've used on the Cube many times is you know, you know, software will eventually work. Hardware will eventually break. So those trade rto >>taught me something over time ago. He said that uh huh, hardware is hard to change. Software is hard to stop changing. So >>that that's a great one to All right, So you gave us through the last three years journey. Give us a little bit. Look, you know, on the next three years and where you expect pensando to be going >>Sure. Where I see pensando in the next three years as we go through this market transition is uh, both a market leader in a thought leader in terms of the next wave of data center edge computing, whether the, uh in the service provider space, whether it be in the enterprise space or whether it be in the cloud space, the hyper hyper scale of space. As I was mentioning in the beginning, we had when we were talking about, uh, the journey. Market transitions of this major really require understanding the entire stack. If you provide a piece and someone else provides a piece, you will eventually get there. But it's a matter of when, and by the time you get there, there's probably something new. So, you know, uh, time in and of itself is an innovation in this area, especially when you're dealing with the market transition like this. And so we've been fortunate enough that we're building the entire system when we go from the transistors to the rest of the FBI's way, have the entire staff. And so where I see us in three years is not only being a market leader in this space, but also being a thought leader in terms of what does domain specific processing look like at the edge. Um, you know, what are the tools? What are the techniques for? Really a z save? Democratizing the cloud bringing, bringing this technology to everyone. >>Excellent. Well, hey, Frances, That has been a pleasure to talk with you. Thank you so much. Congratulations on the journey so far and I can't wait to see you. How? Thanks for going >>forward. Yeah, we're excited, and I appreciate it. Thank you for your time to. All >>right, check out the cube dot net. We've got lots of back catalogue with pensando. Also, I'm stew minimum. And thank you for watching the Q. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

>>from the Cube >>Studios in Palo Alto and Boston connecting with thought leaders all around the world. This is a cube conversation. >>I am stupid, man. And welcome to a cube conversation. Really? Please welcome back to the program. One of our Cube alumni, Sony, Ge and Donnie. She is a co founder and also the business off of pensando. Tony, thanks so much for joining us. >>I thank you for having me here. >>All right. So, Sonny, we've had you on the program a few times. You know, those that have watched the program or followed your career? You've had a story career. You know, I've worked with you as a partner back through some of the spinning disk. You're one of the mpls group. And now, of course, Pensando we helped launch towards the end of 2019. I just want to take a step back and, you know, understand, You know, how did you find yourself in the startup world? >>You know, I got involved with startup ventures as part of the Mpls team. This is going back now. Gosh, 20 years ago, in calendar year 2000 my first venture was with Andy ammo. It was a very unique situation that Mario look up on myself or part of a set up on a startup venture. But all four of us, the Mpls group, did not have any equity in it. Look, and I basically what asked to operate within the with that venture to ensure its ultimate success from a product execution on the go to market perspective? Ah, lot of those elements did not exist from a go to market perspective in Cisco at that time, and it was basically a ground up effort for look and me to not have any financial association with the outcome off the Andy, um, a venture, but at the same time, take on the responsibility from the execution perspective and building up the whole go to market. >>Yeah, so, you know, talking about that these startups, you've been apart of two things. First of all, you were part of and, ya know, you ova in CNI. So did you need to learn Italian to be part of these projects? But more importantly, how did how did you work on that? You know, product customer fit, understanding what the build and, you know, you talk about right How do you make some things that festival? It is super challenging. >>Yeah, well, first and foremost, I think I've been fortunate in that the group that we're all part off it is definitely Italian Indian. And some folks, like from Indiana, for example, like Randy Pond, who is part of this venture with us at Pensando. If I if I would go back and take a look at the simple formula, I mean Mario look, and from, ah, they're veterans in this industry. And they typically focused on the conceiving off the idea and the brought up, uh, and starting with a clean slate approach. Of course, I participate from a market validation development, competitive landscape on a business on all related aspects, bringing the product to market on how that maps into customers and partners what we have consistently focused on market disruption. Particularly for the last two decades, the biggest focus has been on what are the market transitions occurring both from a business and a technology perspective on that is ultimately what creates the opportunity to emerge on and drive these concepts into reality and what yourself, in a market leadership position, is to capture the transition at the right time. >>Yeah, I think back. You know, some of your previous ventures and understand, you know, some of the waves of technologies coming together sometimes the maturity of a technology or being able to take advantage of something new to talk specifically about. Pensando what are you know, those waves of change and the technology coming together that makes the opportunity that you're in today? >>Well, I mean, if you go back and you take a look at really what has been exciting about this pensando opportunity has been to look at the unique ability that have been coming upon us. You know, with this market transition where the cloud is moving to the edge, what is ultimately driving this movement to the edge has been the application. Uh, the applications is is you know, whether it's driven by technology trends like five G, for example. Ah, and and the fact that bulk off what the customer's data is being driven is going to be at the edge. That when when you look at the cloud moving to the edge and evolving that with the transitions occurring, ah, this will require deep innovation. Deep innovation in the areas of distributed network processing security, like encryption, full observe ability while you have turned on encryption, traffic engineering and doing it at very low, predictable agency at the speeds of 100 gig and above all, doing it on a small footprint. We were really the only guys and gals who could do this. And we have done it, >>Yeah, so certainly some really big challenges that they laid out there bring >>us inside >>a little bit. You know, customers. You know, I think about, you know, when I've been watching edge computing for the last three or four years. Uh, you know, it's still relatively early days for customers, but there's a lot of technical challenges there, So help us understand how much you know it was you had technology that could help solve something and how much it is driven by some of the customers that you've been talking to over the years >>Now. One of the key things that we learned and this was going back to the early days of Cisco is that everything we were doing, we had the customer at the center off and at the heart off what innovation we were building from an engineering perspective. You want to build things that can have the most impact in the marketplace and within your customer base. So, uh, one of the early times we went back, who do getting our customers involved in the innovations we were bringing to bear. I still have recollections off a blueprint that we had iterated upon, uh, and sitting in a room, whether it was with the likes of Josh Matthew at Goldman Sachs all whether it was with some of our early cloud customers like the Oracle Cloud, to better understand with these innovation and these blueprints, what were their burning problems? What were they used, cases that we could really go and tackle? So it is one thing to think about market destructions. It's another to bring it to life and having customers engaged with you during the early phases. Off as you are incubating, something is a very important item because it helps you focus your biggest energy on the areas so that you can put your arms around what problems are worth solving. And how can you bring that to life with with customers? Use case. And this is something we have done time and over again. So this is a constant refinement off what we have been doing now for now, to over two decades. As I said, >>Yeah, it's, you know, fascinating here. And when you've got the chief business officer idle, Sony, You know, one of the biggest changes, obviously, is if I look back in the spin ins, you kind of understood how to go to market was what was involved the, you know, the Cisco execution machine that the sales process that they had in plug in a product, that they would help. All right, what you're doing now, you've got some, you know, feel, William partnerships. You have relationship with customers, help us understand a little bit. You know the update on the go to market, how you have. I have a solution that fits for not only the end users, but through multiple different, uh, you know, go to market partners. >>So I think it's, you know, it's very important that as a startup we stay very close to our customers and apart, not just men. We are thinking about what the innovation is and how can it solve their problems. But I think in a world where the way we want to go solve for what? The customer where we want the customer, where our customers want us to be our partnerships is a core part of it. I mean, if you look at from the early days we secured successfully funding from our customers and our strategic partners and it is these customers and strategic partners that are shaping the roadmap on are shaping the routes to market on. What we're doing is we're successfully not only delivering the product, so these strategic customers and partners, but we're also then replicating it across the verticals. If you think about in the enterprise space, our focus has been the focus on regulated market markets where security is essential. Real time, observe ability that can increase your security posture is a very important element. So taking the blueprints that we're taking into global financial services customers, the healthcare industry, the the education market on the federal market, then those are the industries that really care about, and I in regulated markets where we can take the blueprint that we have already built on an amplify across those customers. So there again includes alignment and a partnership with HP. We're working very closely that, while recognizing that we will be doing strategic elements only with partners like HP, we're also on boarding and getting certifications done with Dell because most enterprises have at least dual source vendors from a server, so that that is one aspect. The other aspect is working in a high touch model with the cloud customers and having the opportunity to deliver to them Ah, and onboard them from a production worthy perspective while taking that same blueprint and applying it to other cloud customers and other service provider edge providers that can take advantage of the similar capability. >>Yeah, um, I'm curious. Sony, you know, obviously, the cloud is a space that has been going through a lot of change and accelerating. You know, I'd say much faster than traditional networking did. So you know, curious what you see what you're hearing from customers when they talk about you know, their needs for your solution, what they're doing with multi cloud environment. What is that? That landscape you. And I guess we would love to hear a little bit about how you would compare and contrast yourself. The other solutions out there the one that comes to mind, of course, is you know, eight of us what they're doing with the Annapurna chip in there nitro offering as part of their out. >>You know, as I mentioned earlier, I think the cloud is pushing to the edge. There's a high demand for a lot of packet processing needs with these New Age applications. Customers want to build on and give the you know, we want to be in a position to provide through the democratization and open availability off our products to multiple cloud providers, our technology and as they are experiencing tremendous growth, they're seeking to build cloud with more capacity, with greater degree off security and services functionality. And the ability to process a lot of data at the edge is with millions of simultaneous connections happening at a very small footprint. And that's where we come in. The value that we are essentially providing who not only the existing cloud strategic partners but additional cloud customers we're taking into production this year is that we are enabling them to leapfrog the nitro technology on multiple, whether it is the ability to ah have predictably low latency on and consistently low jitter in the nanoseconds. That is the eight times superior than what a nitro can do today, or the ability to pack their toe process up to nine times more backend processes in the millions of on the ability to do it in a power footprint, which is almost 1/3 that of what you would need on AWS nitro, where they need five times more nitro elements than then we can with a single device, Um, or whether it is the ability now to handle not just power and latency, but millions off flows that can run simultaneously on maintaining the state of all of those and the power of the end, the ability to run multiple services. Uh, with security turned on at the same time are all elements that really differentiate us on. This technology is now readily available to all of us. >>All right, so I understand some of the technical issue items that you're stating there. What I'm curious about is when I look at out both, most customers don't really think about the night. It's that Amazon's providing an extension of their solution into my environment, and they manage everything and so you know, you can't talk about multi cloud environment without talking about Amazon is every customer almost everything right? More than one cloud in one of them is almost always Amazon, though. How does your solution fit into that whole discussion? And then? >>So I think that, you know, one of the things that becomes very important is that if I put my customer enterprise customer hat on, I want to be an enabling my private cloud the private cloud that I build. You have the ability to not just have the option to the port and Amazon cloud, but I typically already and minimal child and barn. So while Outpost and Nitro Nitrogen really enabling, are supposed to deliver those services on our customer's premises, it's only allowing that customer to be locked into one way off dealing with one public cloud company. But if I had to go and think about as I build out my hybrid cloud strategy as an enterprise customer, I want to have the same building blocks on the same policy models that are consistent with all the with the entire dress off cloud vendors that I'm dealing with. The bulk of our customers are essentially telling us I don't want to be locked into a single public cloud company from a hybrid strategy. I want to have the ability to drive a public, private cloud architect that is cloud like from a policy delivery perspective. But at the same time, I want to have the flexibility off deploying a multi cloud and BART, and what we would provide them is the consistency off that same policy model that you would only find in a public cloud with the freedom to not have to buy themselves or lock themselves up into a single public cloud costs. >>So your team, you said, over two decades of experience, there have been some global impacts that have happened during that you got together in 2000. 2001 was right there in front of you that the 2008 you know, down in there, though you're in 2020 obviously the global endemic, as you know, broad financial ripples. How's this impacting Dondo? How's that impacting your discussions with your partners and your customers? >>Well, you know, honestly, I would say that we, like everyone else, have been affected by the pandemic, and we pray that everyone recovers soon with minimum lost to themselves and their families. And this is something very personal. This is here. I feel very passionate about hoping that everybody comes through with this on and their families are all OK. That's all the most important thing in my mind now for us, from a pandemic perspective. What this has done is it has made us more resolute to continue to execute remotely to the best of our ability to meet our customers. Expectations. The advice that I would give to other startups is Keep your head down. Focus on the 80 20 rule, execute on 20% of the things that need to be done, that we'll have 80% of the impact to your business, including undeterred product execution. Stay close to your customers and your partners. Spend your cash judiciously. You know, be very careful on where you're spending your money to make it last. As long as you can ride this pandemic out and double down on being close to your partners and customers. Fortify your sales plans. Meet your customers where they are not where you thought they were, but where they really are and partner with them on this journey and partner with your supply chain. You're going to need that. So this is your time to really be a partner to them, as opposed to see how can you change them? No, no. The really partner with your supply chain Because you're gonna need that. >>Yeah, that's a very sound advice there, Sony. While we're talking advice that, you know, you're very successful career, I'm wondering what advice you would give the other women look at pursuing careers. In fact, specifically, if you know they wanted, you know, start a startup, be a founder, whether that in Silicon Valley or outside, what advice would >>you know? My advice would be to have an undeterred focus. Focus is extremely important. Look, I used to always remind me, Sony, when you're focused on two things, you're d focus. So focus on data. Focus, be driven. Believe in the vision that you have set out for yourself and your team on and keep your eye on the customer. I think in customers successful on your success. That's the message I would give. I would give that same message. My female and the male colleagues. >>Alright, well, we know that you and your team. Sony are very focused, so I'll give you the final word. Gives a little look forward if we go forward. You know, 18 to 24 months. What should we be expecting to see from PENSANDO and your solution? >>Well, in the next 18 to 24 months, we would like to meet and hopefully also exceed our customer's expectation in terms of product execution and the ramp off course. Profitability will be a very important aspect that we're going to keep a very close eye. I think it's too early to be thinking of an ideal, and our focus remains to be on customer success. We have been in the market for a little over. I was a little less than six months. Ah, with the product, September 2019 October 2019 is really when we launched the company on and, uh, the customer always is at the center of everything we do. So that's where we're gonna be focusing on product execution and ramp ramp off product, ramp off estimates. >>Well, so needy. And Dani, it's a pleasure to catch up with you. Thank you so much in the state. >>Thank you. You too. >>Alright. Be sure to check out the cube dot net for all the interviews, you can go see the launch videos that did at go back office in New York City from 2019. If you go to the cube dot net and many more interviews from Sony and her team, I'm stew Minimum. And thank you for watching you. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

>> Announcer: From around the globe, it's the queue with digital coverage of DockerCon live 2020. Brought to you by Docker and its ecosystem partners. >> Welcome, welcome, welcome to DockerCon 2020. We got over 50,000 people registered so there's clearly a ton of interest in the world of Docker and Eddie's as I like to call it. And we've assembled a power panel of Open Source and cloud native experts to talk about where things stand in 2020 and where we're headed. I'm Shawn Conley, I'll be the moderator for today's panel. I'm also a proud alum of JBoss, Red Hat, SpringSource, VMware and Hortonworks and I'm broadcasting from my hometown of Philly. Our panelists include; Michelle Noorali, Senior Software Engineer at Microsoft, joining us from Atlanta, Georgia. We have Kelsey Hightower, Principal developer advocate at Google Cloud, joining us from Washington State and we have Chris Aniszczyk, CTO CIO at the CNCF, joining us from Austin, Texas. So I think we have the country pretty well covered. Thank you all for spending time with us on this power panel. Chris, I'm going to start with you, let's dive right in. You've been in the middle of the Docker netease wave since the beginning with a clear focus on building a better world through open collaboration. What are your thoughts on how the Open Source landscape has evolved over the past few years? Where are we in 2020? And where are we headed from both community and a tech perspective? Just curious to get things sized up? >> Sure, when CNCF started about roughly four, over four years ago, the technology mostly focused on just the things around Kubernetes, monitoring communities with technology like Prometheus, and I think in 2020 and the future, we definitely want to move up the stack. So there's a lot of tools being built on the periphery now. So there's a lot of tools that handle running different types of workloads on Kubernetes. So things like Uvert and Shay runs VMs on Kubernetes, which is crazy, not just containers. You have folks that, Microsoft experimenting with a project called Kruslet which is trying to run web assembly workloads natively on Kubernetes. So I think what we've seen now is more and more tools built around the periphery, while the core of Kubernetes has stabilized. So different technologies and spaces such as security and different ways to run different types of workloads. And at least that's kind of what I've seen. >> So do you have a fair amount of vendors as well as end users still submitting in projects in, is there still a pretty high volume? >> Yeah, we have 48 total projects in CNCF right now and Michelle could speak a little bit more to this being on the DOC, the pipeline for new projects is quite extensive and it covers all sorts of spaces from two service meshes to security projects and so on. So it's ever so expanding and filling in gaps in that cloud native landscape that we have. >> Awesome. Michelle, Let's head to you. But before we actually dive in, let's talk a little glory days. A rumor has it that you are the Fifth Grade Kickball Championship team captain. (Michelle laughs) Are the rumors true? >> They are, my speech at the end of the year was the first talk I ever gave. But yeah, it was really fun. I wasn't captain 'cause I wasn't really great at anything else apart from constantly cheer on the team. >> A little better than my eighth grade Spelling Champ Award so I think I'd rather have the kickball. But you've definitely, spent a lot of time leading an Open Source, you've been across many projects for many years. So how does the art and science of collaboration, inclusivity and teamwork vary? 'Cause you're involved in a variety of efforts, both in the CNCF and even outside of that. And then what are some tips for expanding the tent of Open Source projects? >> That's a good question. I think it's about transparency. Just come in and tell people what you really need to do and clearly articulate your problem, more clearly articulate your problem and why you can't solve it with any other solution, the more people are going to understand what you're trying to do and be able to collaborate with you better. What I love about Open Source is that where I've seen it succeed is where incentives of different perspectives and parties align and you're just transparent about what you want. So you can collaborate where it makes sense, even if you compete as a company with another company in the same area. So I really like that, but I just feel like transparency and honesty is what it comes down to and clearly communicating those objectives. >> Yeah, and the various foundations, I think one of the things that I've seen, particularly Apache Software Foundation and others is the notion of checking your badge at the door. Because the competition might be between companies, but in many respects, you have engineers across many companies that are just kicking butt with the tech they contribute, claiming victory in one way or the other might make for interesting marketing drama. But, I think that's a little bit of the challenge. In some of the, standards-based work you're doing I know with CNI and some other things, are they similar, are they different? How would you compare and contrast into something a little more structured like CNCF? >> Yeah, so most of what I do is in the CNCF, but there's specs and there's projects. I think what CNCF does a great job at is just iterating to make it an easier place for developers to collaborate. You can ask the CNCF for basically whatever you need, and they'll try their best to figure out how to make it happen. And we just continue to work on making the processes are clearer and more transparent. And I think in terms of specs and projects, those are such different collaboration environments. Because if you're in a project, you have to say, "Okay, I want this feature or I want this bug fixed." But when you're in a spec environment, you have to think a little outside of the box and like, what framework do you want to work in? You have to think a little farther ahead in terms of is this solution or this decision we're going to make going to last for the next how many years? You have to get more of a buy in from all of the key stakeholders and maintainers. So it's a little bit of a longer process, I think. But what's so beautiful is that you have this really solid, standard or interface that opens up an ecosystem and allows people to build things that you could never have even imagined or dreamed of so-- >> Gotcha. So I'm Kelsey, we'll head over to you as your focus is on, developer advocate, you've been in the cloud native front lines for many years. Today developers are faced with a ton of moving parts, spanning containers, functions, Cloud Service primitives, including container services, server-less platforms, lots more, right? I mean, there's just a ton of choice. How do you help developers maintain a minimalist mantra in the face of such a wealth of choice? I think minimalism I hear you talk about that periodically, I know you're a fan of that. How do you pass that on and your developer advocacy in your day to day work? >> Yeah, I think, for most developers, most of this is not really the top of mind for them, is something you may see a post on Hacker News, and you might double click into it. Maybe someone on your team brought one of these tools in and maybe it leaks up into your workflow so you're forced to think about it. But for most developers, they just really want to continue writing code like they've been doing. And the best of these projects they'll never see. They just work, they get out of the way, they help them with log in, they help them run their application. But for most people, this isn't the core idea of the job for them. For people in operations, on the other hand, maybe these components fill a gap. So they look at a lot of this stuff that you see in the CNCF and Open Source space as number one, various companies or teams sharing the way that they do things, right? So these are ideas that are put into the Open Source, some of them will turn into products, some of them will just stay as projects that had mutual benefit for multiple people. But for the most part, it's like walking through an ion like Home Depot. You pick the tools that you need, you can safely ignore the ones you don't need, and maybe something looks interesting and maybe you study it to see if that if you have a problem. And for most people, if you don't have that problem that that tool solves, you should be happy. No one needs every project and I think that's where the foundation for confusion. So my main job is to help people not get stuck and confused in LAN and just be pragmatic and just use the tools that work for 'em. >> Yeah, and you've spent the last little while in the server-less space really diving into that area, compare and contrast, I guess, what you found there, minimalist approach, who are you speaking to from a server-less perspective versus that of the broader CNCF? >> The thing that really pushed me over, I was teaching my daughter how to make a website. So she's on her Chromebook, making a website, and she's hitting 127.0.0.1, and it looks like geo cities from the 90s but look, she's making website. And she wanted her friends to take a look. So she copied and paste from her browser 127.0.0.1 and none of her friends could pull it up. So this is the point where every parent has to cross that line and say, "Hey, do I really need to sit down "and teach my daughter about Linux "and Docker and Kubernetes." That isn't her main goal, her goal was to just launch her website in a way that someone else can see it. So we got Firebase installed on her laptop, she ran one command, Firebase deploy. And our site was up in a few minutes, and she sent it over to her friend and there you go, she was off and running. The whole server-less movement has that philosophy as one of the stated goal that needs to be the workflow. So, I think server-less is starting to get closer and closer, you start to see us talk about and Chris mentioned this earlier, we're moving up the stack. Where we're going to up the stack, the North Star there is feel where you get the focus on what you're doing, and not necessarily how to do it underneath. And I think server-less is not quite there yet but every type of workload, stateless web apps check, event driven workflows check, but not necessarily for things like machine learning and some other workloads that more traditional enterprises want to run so there's still work to do there. So server-less for me, serves as the North Star for why all these Projects exists for people that may have to roll their own platform, to provide the experience. >> So, Chris, on a related note, with what we were just talking about with Kelsey, what's your perspective on the explosion of the cloud native landscape? There's, a ton of individual projects, each can be used separately, but in many cases, they're like Lego blocks and used together. So things like the surface mesh interface, standardizing interfaces, so things can snap together more easily, I think, are some of the approaches but are you doing anything specifically to encourage this cross fertilization and collaboration of bug ability, because there's just a ton of projects, not only at the CNCF but outside the CNCF that need to plug in? >> Yeah, I mean, a lot of this happens organically. CNCF really provides of the neutral home where companies, competitors, could trust each other to build interesting technology. We don't force integration or collaboration, it happens on its own. We essentially allow the market to decide what a successful project is long term or what an integration is. We have a great Technical Oversight Committee that helps shepherd the overall technical vision for the organization and sometimes steps in and tries to do the right thing when it comes to potentially integrating a project. Previously, we had this issue where there was a project called Open Tracing, and an effort called Open Census, which is basically trying to standardize how you're going to deal with metrics, on the tree and so on in a cloud native world that we're essentially competing with each other. The CNCF TC and committee came together and merged those projects into one parent ever called Open Elementary and so that to me is a case study of how our committee helps, bridges things. But we don't force things, we essentially want our community of end users and vendors to decide which technology is best in the long term, and we'll support that. >> Okay, awesome. And, Michelle, you've been focused on making distributed systems digestible, which to me is about simplifying things. And so back when Docker arrived on the scene, some people referred to it as developer dopamine, which I love that term, because it's simplified a bunch of crufty stuff for developers and actually helped them focus on doing their job, writing code, delivering code, what's happening in the community to help developers wire together multi-part modern apps in a way that's elegant, digestible, feels like a dopamine rush? >> Yeah, one of the goals of the(mumbles) project was to make it easier to deploy an application on Kubernetes so that you could see what the finished product looks like. And then dig into all of the things that that application is composed of, all the resources. So we're really passionate about this kind of stuff for a while now. And I love seeing projects that come into the space that have this same goal and just iterate and make things easier. I think we have a ways to go still, I think a lot of the iOS developers and JS developers I get to talk to don't really care that much about Kubernetes. They just want to, like Kelsey said, just focus on their code. So one of the projects that I really like working with is Tilt gives you this dashboard in your CLI, aggregates all your logs from your applications, And it kind of watches your application changes, and reconfigures those changes in Kubernetes so you can see what's going on, it'll catch errors, anything with a dashboard I love these days. So Yali is like a metrics dashboard that's integrated with STL, a service graph of your service mesh, and lets you see the metrics running there. I love that, I love that dashboard so much. Linkerd has some really good service graph images, too. So anything that helps me as an end user, which I'm not technically an end user, but me as a person who's just trying to get stuff up and running and working, see the state of the world easily and digest them has been really exciting to see. And I'm seeing more and more dashboards come to light and I'm very excited about that. >> Yeah, as part of the DockerCon just as a person who will be attending some of the sessions, I'm really looking forward to see where DockerCompose is going, I know they opened up the spec to broader input. I think your point, the good one, is there's a bit more work to really embrace the wealth of application artifacts that compose a larger application. So there's definitely work the broader community needs to lean in on, I think. >> I'm glad you brought that up, actually. Compose is something that I should have mentioned and I'm glad you bring that up. I want to see programming language libraries, integrate with the Compose spec. I really want to see what happens with that I think is great that they open that up and made that a spec because obviously people really like using Compose. >> Excellent. So Kelsey, I'd be remiss if I didn't touch on your January post on changelog entitled, "Monoliths are the Future." Your post actually really resonated with me. My son works for a software company in Austin, Texas. So your hometown there, Chris. >> Yeah. >> Shout out to Will and the chorus team. His development work focuses on adding modern features via micro services as extensions to the core monolith that the company was founded on. So just share some thoughts on monoliths, micro services. And also, what's deliverance dopamine from your perspective more broadly, but people usually phrase as monoliths versus micro services, but I get the sense you don't believe it's either or. >> Yeah, I think most companies from the pragmatic so one of their argument is one of pragmatism. Most companies have trouble designing any app, monolith, deployable or microservices architecture. And then these things evolve over time. Unless you're really careful, it's really hard to know how to slice these things. So taking an idea or a problem and just knowing how to perfectly compartmentalize it into individual deployable component, that's hard for even the best people to do. And double down knowing the actual solution to the particular problem. A lot of problems people are solving they're solving for the first time. It's really interesting, our industry in general, a lot of people who work in it have never solved the particular problem that they're trying to solve for the first time. So that's interesting. The other part there is that most of these tools that are here to help are really only at the infrastructure layer. We're talking freeways and bridges and toll bridges, but there's nothing that happens in the actual developer space right there in memory. So the libraries that interface to the structure logging, the libraries that deal with rate limiting, the libraries that deal with authorization, can this person make this query with this user ID? A lot of those things are still left for developers to figure out on their own. So while we have things like the brunettes and fluid D, we have all of these tools to deploy apps into those target, most developers still have the problem of everything you do above that line. And to be honest, the majority of the complexity has to be resolved right there in the app. That's the thing that's taking requests directly from the user. And this is where maybe as an industry, we're over-correcting. So we had, you said you come from the JBoss world, I started a lot of my Cisco administration, there's where we focus a little bit more on the actual application needs, maybe from a router that as well. But now what we're seeing is things like Spring Boot, start to offer a little bit more integration points in the application space itself. So I think the biggest parts that are missing now are what are the frameworks people will use for authorization? So you have projects like OPA, Open Policy Agent for those that are new to that, it gives you this very low level framework, but you still have to understand the concepts around, what does it mean to allow someone to do something and one missed configuration, all your security goes out of the window. So I think for most developers this is where the next set of challenges lie, if not actually the original challenge. So for some people, they were able to solve most of these problems with virtualization, run some scripts, virtualize everything and be fine. And monoliths were okay for that. For some reason, we've thrown pragmatism out of the window and some people are saying the only way to solve these problems is by breaking the app into 1000 pieces. Forget the fact that you had trouble managing one piece, you're going to somehow find the ability to manage 1000 pieces with these tools underneath but still not solving the actual developer problems. So this is where you've seen it already with a couple of popular blog posts from other companies. They cut too deep. They're going from 2000, 3000 microservices back to maybe 100 or 200. So to my world, it's going to be not just one monolith, but end up maybe having 10 or 20 monoliths that maybe reflect the organization that you have versus the architectural pattern that you're at. >> I view it as like a constellation of stars and planets, et cetera. Where you you might have a star that has a variety of, which is a monolith, and you have a variety of sort of planetary microservices that float around it. But that's reality, that's the reality of modern applications, particularly if you're not starting from a clean slate. I mean your points, a good one is, in many respects, I think the infrastructure is code movement has helped automate a bit of the deployment of the platform. I've been personally focused on app development JBoss as well as springsSource. The Spring team I know that tech pretty well over the years 'cause I was involved with that. So I find that James Governor's discussion of progressive delivery really resonates with me, as a developer, not so much as an infrastructure Deployer. So continuous delivery is more of infrastructure notice notion, progressive delivery, feature flags, those types of things, or app level, concepts, minimizing the blast radius of your, the new features you're deploying, that type of stuff, I think begins to speak to the pain of application delivery. So I'll guess I'll put this up. Michelle, I might aim it to you, and then we'll go around the horn, what are your thoughts on the progressive delivery area? How could that potentially begin to impact cloud native over 2020? I'm looking for some rallying cries that move up the stack and give a set of best practices, if you will. And I think James Governor of RedMonk opened on something that's pretty important. >> Yeah, I think it's all about automating all that stuff that you don't really know about. Like Flagger is an awesome progressive delivery tool, you can just deploy something, and people have been asking for so many years, ever since I've been in this space, it's like, "How do I do AB deployment?" "How do I do Canary?" "How do I execute these different deployment strategies?" And Flagger is a really good example, for example, it's a really good way to execute these deployment strategies but then, make sure that everything's happening correctly via observing metrics, rollback if you need to, so you don't just throw your whole system. I think it solves the problem and allows you to take risks but also keeps you safe in that you can be confident as you roll out your changes that it all works, it's metrics driven. So I'm just really looking forward to seeing more tools like that. And dashboards, enable that kind of functionality. >> Chris, what are your thoughts in that progressive delivery area? >> I mean, CNCF alone has a lot of projects in that space, things like Argo that are tackling it. But I want to go back a little bit to your point around developer dopamine, as someone that probably spent about a decade of his career focused on developer tooling and in fact, if you remember the Eclipse IDE and that whole integrated experience, I was blown away recently by a demo from GitHub. They have something called code spaces, which a long time ago, I was trying to build development environments that essentially if you were an engineer that joined a team recently, you could basically get an environment quickly start it with everything configured, source code checked out, environment properly set up. And that was a very hard problem. This was like before container days and so on and to see something like code spaces where you'd go to a repo or project, open it up, behind the scenes they have a container that is set up for the environment that you need to build and just have a VS code ID integrated experience, to me is completely magical. It hits like developer dopamine immediately for me, 'cause a lot of problems when you're going to work with a project attribute, that whole initial bootstrap of, "Oh you need to make sure you have this library, this install," it's so incredibly painful on top of just setting up your developer environment. So as we continue to move up the stack, I think you're going to see an incredible amount of improvements around the developer tooling and developer experience that people have powered by a lot of this cloud native technology behind the scenes that people may not know about. >> Yeah, 'cause I've been talking with the team over at Docker, the work they're doing with that desktop, enable the aim local environment, make sure it matches as closely as possible as your deployed environments that you might be targeting. These are some of the pains, that I see. It's hard for developers to get bootstrapped up, it might take him a day or two to actually just set up their local laptop and development environment, and particularly if they change teams. So that complexity really corralling that down and not necessarily being overly prescriptive as to what tool you use. So if you're visual code, great, it should feel integrated into that environment, use a different environment or if you feel more comfortable at the command line, you should be able to opt into that. That's some of the stuff I get excited to potentially see over 2020 as things progress up the stack, as you said. So, Michelle, just from an innovation train perspective, and we've covered a little bit, what's the best way for people to get started? I think Kelsey covered a little bit of that, being very pragmatic, but all this innovation is pretty intimidating, you can get mowed over by the train, so to speak. So what's your advice for how people get started, how they get involved, et cetera. >> Yeah, it really depends on what you're looking for and what you want to learn. So, if you're someone who's new to the space, honestly, check out the case studies on cncf.io, those are incredible. You might find environments that are similar to your organization's environments, and read about what worked for them, how they set things up, any hiccups they crossed. It'll give you a broad overview of the challenges that people are trying to solve with the technology in this space. And you can use that drill into the areas that you want to learn more about, just depending on where you're coming from. I find myself watching old KubeCon talks on the cloud native computing foundations YouTube channel, so they have like playlists for all of the conferences and the special interest groups in CNCF. And I really enjoy talking, I really enjoy watching excuse me, older talks, just because they explain why things were done, the way they were done, and that helps me build the tools I built. And if you're looking to get involved, if you're building projects or tools or specs and want to contribute, we have special interest groups in the CNCF. So you can find that in the CNCF Technical Oversight Committee, TOC GitHub repo. And so for that, if you want to get involved there, choose a vertical. Do you want to learn about observability? Do you want to drill into networking? Do you care about how to deliver your app? So we have a cig called app delivery, there's a cig for each major vertical, and you can go there to see what is happening on the edge. Really, these are conversations about, okay, what's working, what's not working and what are the next changes we want to see in the next months. So if you want that kind of granularity and discussion on what's happening like that, then definitely join those those meetings. Check out those meeting notes and recordings. >> Gotcha. So on Kelsey, as you look at 2020 and beyond, I know, you've been really involved in some of the earlier emerging tech spaces, what gets you excited when you look forward? What gets your own level of dopamine up versus the broader community? What do you see coming that we should start thinking about now? >> I don't think any of the raw technology pieces get me super excited anymore. Like, I've seen the circle of around three or four times, in five years, there's going to be a new thing, there might be a new foundation, there'll be a new set of conferences, and we'll all rally up and probably do this again. So what's interesting now is what people are actually using the technology for. Some people are launching new things that maybe weren't possible because infrastructure costs were too high. People able to jump into new business segments. You start to see these channels on YouTube where everyone can buy a mic and a B app and have their own podcasts and be broadcast to the globe, just for a few bucks, if not for free. Those revolutionary things are the big deal and they're hard to come by. So I think we've done a good job democratizing these ideas, distributed systems, one company got really good at packaging applications to share with each other, I think that's great, and never going to reset again. And now what's going to be interesting is, what will people build with this stuff? If we end up building the same things we were building before, and then we're talking about another digital transformation 10 years from now because it's going to be funny but Kubernetes will be the new legacy. It's going to be the things that, "Oh, man, I got stuck in this Kubernetes thing," and there'll be some governor on TV, looking for old school Kubernetes engineers to migrate them to some new thing, that's going to happen. You got to know that. So at some point merry go round will stop. And we're going to be focused on what you do with this. So the internet is there, most people have no idea of the complexities of underwater sea cables. It's beyond one or two people, or even one or two companies to comprehend. You're at the point now, where most people that jump on the internet are talking about what you do with the internet. You can have Netflix, you can do meetings like this one, it's about what you do with it. So that's going to be interesting. And we're just not there yet with tech, tech is so, infrastructure stuff. We're so in the weeds, that most people almost burn out what's just getting to the point where you can start to look at what you do with this stuff. So that's what I keep in my eye on, is when do we get to the point when people just ship things and build things? And I think the closest I've seen so far is in the mobile space. If you're iOS developer, Android developer, you use the SDK that they gave you, every year there's some new device that enables some new things speech to text, VR, AR and you import an STK, and it just worked. And you can put it in one place and 100 million people can download it at the same time with no DevOps team, that's amazing. When can we do that for server side applications? That's going to be something I'm going to find really innovative. >> Excellent. Yeah, I mean, I could definitely relate. I was Hortonworks in 2011, so, Hadoop, in many respects, was sort of the precursor to the Kubernetes area, in that it was, as I like to refer to, it was a bunch of animals in the zoo, wasn't just the yellow elephant. And when things mature beyond it's basically talking about what kind of analytics are driving, what type of machine learning algorithms and applications are they delivering? You know that's when things tip over into a real solution space. So I definitely see that. I think the other cool thing even just outside of the container and container space, is there's just such a wealth of data related services. And I think how those two worlds come together, you brought up the fact that, in many respects, server-less is great, it's stateless, but there's just a ton of stateful patterns out there that I think also need to be addressed as these richer applications to be from a data processing and actionable insights perspective. >> I also want to be clear on one thing. So some people confuse two things here, what Michelle said earlier about, for the first time, a whole group of people get to learn about distributed systems and things that were reserved to white papers, PhDs, CF site, this stuff is now super accessible. You go to the CNCF site, all the things that you read about or we used to read about, you can actually download, see how it's implemented and actually change how it work. That is something we should never say is a waste of time. Learning is always good because someone has to build these type of systems and whether they sell it under the guise of server-less or not, this will always be important. Now the other side of this is, that there are people who are not looking to learn that stuff, the majority of the world isn't looking. And in parallel, we should also make this accessible, which should enable people that don't need to learn all of that before they can be productive. So that's two sides of the argument that can be true at the same time, a lot of people get caught up. And everything should just be server-less and everyone learning about distributed systems, and contributing and collaborating is wasting time. We can't have a world where there's only one or two companies providing all infrastructure for everyone else, and then it's a black box. We don't need that. So we need to do both of these things in parallel so I just want to make sure I'm clear that it's not one of these or the other. >> Yeah, makes sense, makes sense. So we'll just hit the final topic. Chris, I think I'll ask you to help close this out. COVID-19 clearly has changed how people work and collaborate. I figured we'd end on how do you see, so DockerCon is going to virtual events, inherently the Open Source community is distributed and is used to not face to face collaboration. But there's a lot of value that comes together by assembling a tent where people can meet, what's the best way? How do you see things playing out? What's the best way for this to evolve in the face of the new normal? >> I think in the short term, you're definitely going to see a lot of virtual events cropping up all over the place. Different themes, verticals, I've already attended a handful of virtual events the last few weeks from Red Hat summit to Open Compute summit to Cloud Native summit, you'll see more and more of these. I think, in the long term, once the world either get past COVID or there's a vaccine or something, I think the innate nature for people to want to get together and meet face to face and deal with all the serendipitous activities you would see in a conference will come back, but I think virtual events will augment these things in the short term. One benefit we've seen, like you mentioned before, DockerCon, can have 50,000 people at it. I don't remember what the last physical DockerCon had but that's definitely an order of magnitude more. So being able to do these virtual events to augment potential of physical events in the future so you can build a more inclusive community so people who cannot travel to your event or weren't lucky enough to win a scholarship could still somehow interact during the course of event to me is awesome and I hope something that we take away when we start all doing these virtual events when we get back to physical events, we find a way to ensure that these things are inclusive for everyone and not just folks that can physically make it there. So those are my thoughts on on the topic. And I wish you the best of luck planning of DockerCon and so on. So I'm excited to see how it turns out. 50,000 is a lot of people and that just terrifies me from a cloud native coupon point of view, because we'll probably be somewhere. >> Yeah, get ready. Excellent, all right. So that is a wrap on the DockerCon 2020 Open Source Power Panel. I think we covered a ton of ground. I'd like to thank Chris, Kelsey and Michelle, for sharing their perspectives on this continuing wave of Docker and cloud native innovation. I'd like to thank the DockerCon attendees for tuning in. And I hope everybody enjoys the rest of the conference. (upbeat music)

>>Ly from San Diego, California at the cube covering to clock in cloud native con brought to you by red hat, the cloud native computing foundation and its ecosystem Marsh. >>Welcome back. This is the cube live coverage three days wall to wall coverage of CubeCon cloud native con in San Diego. I'm Stu Miniman. My cohost for these three days is John Troyer. And welcome to the program. First of all, from the keynote stage, Heather Kirksey, who is the vice president of community and ecosystem development with the Linux foundation for CNCF part of Linux foundation and from some of the technology behind the scenes joining her, Sandy Pennys are the SVP of strategic engagement at attorney. Thank you so much for joining us. Right. So Heather, this was a really cool demo with a lot of things going beyond the scene. Uh, if people actually go watch an interview we did yesterday, uh, with, uh, the people at red hat talk about, uh, it's a good thing. It was cloud native because there was a brownout cower was lost, had to rebuild the entire thing. Um, and everybody up on stage, you know, the next day, didn't know anything the wiser. So, uh, you know, really cool pot on stage. Uh, you know, talking about 5g global engagement, China mobile, uh, other banks. I like, um, I'm sorry, other mobile providers, uh, like from Canada and from Europe involved in this. Um, give us a little bit of the, the, the foundation view as to, you know, how something like this comes together and how you get participation from, you know, the technology providers, the telco providers. Uh, you know, it takes, it takes a village. >>First of all, you have to be slightly mad. Um, but I mean that's, that's really kind of the premise of open source, right? Is that people come together and they build things together. And so we done some demos in the past, um, where we looked at sort of, you know, the, the modernization of the central office. And so we had had some, you know, some tea, you know, some tapes of folks that had been building things. And then we, you know, we sent out a call basically to the community and said, yeah, we'd like to do another one. And what we're going to try to do is full five G full called native, if you're interested in joining, yo come on. And so it just ended up that basically 15 organizations said, yes, that sounds like something that we would like to prove out. And 80 volunteers across those organizations ended up working on it. >>My understanding was about four months, uh, to, to put all the pieces together, bring us, bring us through kinda, you know, how the stack gets built and. >>Yeah, well I mean, so amongst some of the issues where you have five G itself is fairly new. So we, we started with sort of the complexities of getting equipment, you know, and getting five G radio. You know, we had a partner in China who had a 5g handset that then wanted us to indemnify, you know, all of these things. Uh, to the extent that like we as a nonprofit didn't feel comfortable signing the agreement. So it was, you know, it started actually just, I mean, this was so cutting edge with in terms of the five G aspect that getting equipment was challenging. Um, yeah. And that's before you even get to sort of the challenges of building the stack. So, um, so, you know, it started kind of figuring out what pieces started building things, um, you know, found some yo gaps in Coobernetti's around supporting the, the, the sophistication of networking that we have to do. Um, so we figured out how to work around it for the demo, but what we want to do is start upstreaming some, um, some changes into, into some of the projects there. >>All right, so San Deepa, your company's one of the providers inside here. So tell us what, what drew you into it and how it is living on that bleeding edge was something like five. >>Well, it's, it's absolutely thrilling living on that leading edge. It's exciting, you know, lots of risks. But the payoff yesterday was fantastic. Be able to complete that call on stage. You know, from our perspective, we were invited in fairly early on into the project. Uh, and we're, we're thrilled to be part of it. And as once we understood the scope and what everyone's trying to do, we realized like we're providing the, the SD wan for this project, connecting the public cloud, the private cloud, and we're deploying, uh, using containers, Kubernetes. And we are able to bring the entire thing together by creating one virtual network so that it's seamless and all the underlying infrastructure, that layer, layer two, layer one, the underlay is just completely invisible to be able to transport that call, to do the signaling, to do everything that needs to be done. >>So for us to become part of this project was really powerful for one, for us to just, uh, just work with some of the companies that were there, like the Linux foundation and tell the Nobel all the other big name players that were out there. And so that was, that was amazing. An amazing experience. But then the community itself that came together, like the people that we met, we met them all at the show. It's all phone calls, we met them all at the show and it really is a community filled with love and a real drive and desire, uh, to build something new and different. Right. Sprinkled with a bit of crazy. >>Yeah. >>Well, so I mean this is a, is a great example of how the Linux foundation can be a catalyst here. I mean one of the Linux foundation is so broad, the CNCF is so broad and you're operating in many domains in this being, you know, bringing the telecom world together, being one of them. But I don't know, can you maybe just talk a little bit about the ecosystem and the unique challenges of, I mean there are some times open source approaches that are a little more strongly opinionated. Like this is going to be our, this is, this is what we're working on. This is going to be our stack. This is the projects in our stack. CNCF has a obviously a, a well documented and open, uh, process around bringing projects in and projects graduating. How does that make your >>life harder? >> Yeah. Well, I mostly focus on our networking projects and working with the telecom industry. And yeah, I mean Telekom definitely likes to be opinionated, you know, I mean that's, that's kind of, and our soul. Um, and so that is also is useful because really at the end of the day, interoperability for the type of scale that telecom operators has is very important. Right? It's um, yeah, some of the cloud providers, right? It's up to the people who want to run on them to like work with their API APIs. But the, the telecom operators, they're using all these applications to provide services to their customers so they have a business need to make sure everything really works end to end. And so there's actually an initiative right now between, um, the LF networking projects and the GSM, uh, where we're really trying to, not to prescriptively, because we do also understand that that doesn't know, you're not going to get the exact same pieces of software that worked for every single operator's network or business, but with a lot more sort of UPenn opinion around, you know, what should the cloud platforms, whether they are VM based or container based, what do they look like and how can we start doing things like compliance and verification programs around commercial implementations, whether it is the underlying platform or whether it's the applications on top. >>And so that's the thing that, you know, we're, we're working on right now because at the end of the day, we're really needing to help them accelerate their, their deployments and, um, get that agility. That's the promise of. >>So, Heather, I want to go back to something you mentioned earlier that there were some gaps in Coobernetti's speak to how fast the community rallied around to, you know, allow this, uh, solution to go forward. >>Yeah. So, um, I'll, I mean basically this is what happens when you get a bunch of engineers together, you know, for the demo itself, we weren't going to fork or make our own sort of changes Kubernetes. So we, we did some things to, to tie things together. Probably you've seen SD when I see Rampart. But yeah, one of the, one of the big issues is just being able to expose multiple interfaces. Um, which, you know, in a service writer network you have multiple interfaces, right? Um, fi six support is another big issue. And so being able to expose those natively in Kubernetes or natively just using cloud native, it's something that we're still working on. Um, there, there are a couple of projects that are looking at that um, network service mesh. Uh, you know, maybe there's some different CNI who are beginning to think through that problem. Um, none of them were quite there. So yeah, we didn't want to start forking and writing pseudo Kubernetes code. Um, so we kinda just use some of the tools and the players in place to work around that. But we, what we would love is to upstream that code and to main line. Sure. >>Yeah. So Sandy would love to hear a little bit more about how SD wind fits in the entire multicloud discussion. Um, we were, we had a pop here in San Diego. There's a lab in Montreal and then there is a, a lab in France and we use public, uh, a combination of, uh, the Alibaba cloud in North America and in Europe. And what we had to do is we had to create a way for the phones to reach each other. So we had to do this initial signaling where you do the request and you have to get to all of the different pods to make the, to make the request. So what we did is we put our, um, containers and all the, in all the cloud providers and also in the labs and we were able to create that private network. And that was what allowed for the call signaling to happen. >>And for the actual call to actually be completed from one to handset to the other. Cindy, you're uh, uh, you talked about community, you know, you're an engineer, a stye in our eyes, a word is SDN when a word, I suppose they usually hear more on an enterprise side of the show. Right. And, uh, you know, talk with lots of folks who provide, you know, in, in that space. This is a little bit different, right? As you, I don't know if you've had a chance to wander either in the sessions or on the floor, kind of curious. There is some, a little bit of networking out there, a little bit networking, security and a couple of other, certainly some service mesh stuff. Right. I don't know. What are your thoughts about how this is growing up on the, in this open source world? It's, listen, it's growing up very fast, right? >>That's, that's 100% sure. I mean, the show is, is, is growing like leaps and bounds every year. It's insane. And that, that, that debt, that performance yesterday was in front of, I don't know how many thousands of people, but I mean that was huge and it was amazing. Um, and you're right, you know, normally when you're thinking about this kind of stuff, you're not necessarily thinking about the networking, but at the end of the day, you know, Kubernetes is a platform or a tool. SD wan is a tool. Um, and if you take all of these tools and put them together, you can actually build something wonderful, right? And that's what we did in this project here. We were able to deliver a 5g call and you know, run it everywhere. So I think what's important in the community, even though this is really primarily a developer event and developer show, you are seeing some edge people here, you are seeing some networking people here and people are the awareness of, Oh wait, you know, we need edge and we need networking to actually build, you know, commercializable platforms or products, right. Is, it's that awareness that's just, I think this year at least is really starting to come out. And I think next year it's going to be even more prevalent and you're going to the show me evolve, you know? And that's why where I kind of see it going. >>Yeah. I mean, I think application developers and general tend to think networking is amazing. It just happens to be, they're sort of like plumbing and power. Um, but to actually deliver it is a fairly complicated challenge and it's part of the reason we want to do the demo yesterday was actually to kind of show some of the challenges and to kind of show what it takes to set up a mobile network. So the F we're going to use Kubernetes to do that. They, you know, the developers here would have a little bit more understanding so that when we were like, we need, you know, we need multiple interfaces or we need to be able to address things in a certain way. They, they, they have a better understanding of why so they can help us from the telecom industry, uh, design and build it out. >>Yeah. I guess the last thing is we've had the cube of the open source summit. We've been to the open networking summit. Uh, you know, when you get off the stage, you put, you know, there's so many different open source projects that Dan just give us a view as to how they span across all of these communities to make sure that we don't end up with a lot of fragmented things. How does everything kind of pull together in the networking? All right, so, so many projects across so many sources, how does, how does Linux foundation make sure that we don't just end up with, you know, siloed, uh, you know, places? >>Well, yeah, to be, to be honest, it's a little bit of a challenge because sometimes the reason that we end up with multiple projects serving what looks like similar needs is because there are different technical approaches. And so might be one will work better than the other. I mean, that's kind of the idea of open source that people can try different things. Um, and, uh, we just try to help people have more, less of a not invented here sort of mindset that if there's a good reason, uh, to try a different approach, go for it. And let's see what, what takes root and what flowers. Um, but you know, also other people are doing things, so just because you're not aware of them. So we, you know, there's a lot of stuff around education and, um, sharing of information that we try to do that, that helps with that. But I mean, yeah. >>Heather, Cindy, thank you so much for joining us regulations on, on the demo. A lot of hard work. >>Thank you. I just have to tell you, I feel as though a thousand pound weight has been lifted off my shoulders out, but it was extraordinarily fun to do actually. >>It was fun. Thank you for John Troyer. I'm Stu Miniman getting towards the end of our three days wall-to-wall coverage. They're running for the tee shirts that are left, but we've got a couple more interviews. Thank you for watching the queue.

>> From Seattle, Washington, it's theCUBE covering KubeCon and CloudNativeCon North America 2018 brought to you by Red Hat, the Cloud Native Computing Foundation and it's ecosystem partners. >> Hello everyone, welcome back to theCUBE's coverage here. Day three of wall to wall coverage at KubeCon, CloudNativeCon 2018, here in Seattle, theCUBE's been breaking it down all week. I'm John Furrier with Stu Miniman. Our next guest is Tuan Nguyen who is the principal engineer in technical marketing, cloud products and solutions at Cisco Systems. Tuan, welcome to theCUBE. Thanks for joining us. >> Thanks for having me. Thank you. >> So obviously, cloud has been a big part of Cisco. We've seen at Cisco Live last year and Cisco Barcelona. >> Yeah. >> Got your big European event coming up, Cisco Live in Europe. >> Yes. >> Cloud has been a big part of the CEO's conversations on stage. >> Yes. >> Cisco's going all in on cloud, DevNet. >> Yeah. >> DevNet Create, two communities. You guys got a cloud native vibe going on in Cisco. >> Yeah, we do. >> Cloud centered. You got some products that are addressing this. >> Right. >> This is a, shift for Cisco, big time. >> Yeah. >> You've in the cloud, but this is like all. It feels like an all in. >> Right, right. Yeah, yeah, so what we've been evangelizing to people here is that Cisco is a software company, right? We certainly have a very strong heritage in our enterprise relationships related to our hardware platforms but we're transitioning and we're really making that conversion to being a software company. Cisco has been acquiring talent and technology in the past couple years. We've developed some strong relationships with Google and AWS as well and we developed these reference architectures that our customers can buy as kind of a single unit and get the support that they need from us. >> Yeah. >> So. >> We covered your recent announcement with AWS. >> Yes. >> Really nice, elegantly designed Kubernetes strategy where using EKS over here, you got the Cisco stuff on here so it's seamless experience for the customer which is great, congrats, I think that's a great announcement. I think it's directionally correct. I think that's what customers want. But I want to ask you a bigger question I want to get your opinion on, perspective. When you look at Kubernetes, what we're hearing here at the show from end users and from the emerging start ups that are contributing is that, breaking down the monolithic application into a series of granule sets of services is what everyone is doing. That's clearly, that microservices, a variety of other things, Kubernetes can connect that. But it's the network that brings it together. >> Right. >> So we're seeing the policy knobs inside Kubernetes as being a very strategic benefit. We had one expert say, "A lot of people "aren't taking advantage of those policy knobs. "This is a great opportunity." >> Right. >> You guys are, (laughing) as networked as you could be at Cisco. This is your DNA. >> Yeah. >> How are you guys looking at Kubernetes? Are you looking at the policy knobs? How do you talk to your customers about this new opportunity with Kubernetes? >> Yeah. >> What's the real up side-- >> Yeah. >> For your customers with Kubernetes? >> Yeah. So one, you mentioned, we see Kubernetes as very pervasive so we offer an on prem version of Kubernetes and of course, you know, we partner with Google and with AWS to deliver on cloud versions of Kubernetes and related to policies, application policies, in the form of Istio and network policies or security policies in the form of a network interface. Our on prem solution offers three types of CNIs. So we're very flexible in that way and certainly if you are a Cisco customer and you have a Cisco ecosystem of hardware platforms then we natively integrate into those platforms and we let you leverage your existing investments, yeah. >> So if I look at it that way, then I'm saying, okay, I'm good with Cisco right now. >> Yeah. >> Do I have to change anything with Kubernetes? What's the impact to me, as a Cisco customer? >> Yeah. >> Is this added value? Consistent environment? What's the impact to the customer's day to day, operational? (laughing) >> Sure, sure. Yeah. >> Environment? >> Yeah, so our customers are asking us to tie both VM based and container based workloads into CICD, so we obviously, with with our ACI/CNI we give them the capability to construct policies in Kubernetes that end up on the hardware platform, right? That's number one. Then we also have a hardware registry, we have security policies, that can be carried across different platforms, so in your private cloud and VMware and OpenStack, you can carry those same policies. For us, we've got application delivery, frameworks and platforms, that deliver the application in the form of both VM and container based as well as bare metal and we kind of unify the user experience, when it comes to application deployment in Kubernetes. >> Yeah, so Tuan, I'm actually glad that we got you towards the end of what we've been talking about here because one of the things we've been teasing apart is, multi clouds, in many ways, is like what we've been talking about a long time about multi vendor. >> Yeah. >> And the networking space is an area that we really understand. You know, what worked and what didn't work in a multi vendor world and the management piece was often the breaking point because just stitching all those together, we've looked for the last few years, customers have multi cloud and getting their arms around that and how do I manage that, can be a real challenge. >> Yeah, yeah. >> We know Cisco's making investments, they've made acquisitions. Tell us, what have we learned from the past? What's different about this now that will make it successful where management has been one of the pitfalls for quite a long time? >> Yeah, yeah. So I think what we've learned from the past is that customers are asking us for policies that can span across the multi cloud, right? So, whereas certain platforms will give you a hybrid cloud experience, Cisco is investing in things like VPN meshed apologies into CSR, in ASR, in protecting workloads as they move across different cloud targets. And then also in the provisioning and life cycle management. We feel that customers want the capability to run applications in any cloud environment and under any type of overlay or underlay networking platforms, yeah. >> Tuan, one of the things that you talk about not only getting your arms around it but there is multi axis's that I need to optimize for. One of the ones, of course, sorting out is cost. So, you know, where does Cisco sit in this environment? The big shift that I think was really highlighted for me last year, going to Cisco Live is, it used to be most of what I'm managing, I control. >> Right. >> Today, most of the network and most of the environments that I'm in charge of? They're outside of my purview. >> Right. >> With doing that multi cloud world. >> Right. >> So how I make sure that I don't, you know, get myself in trouble with the CFO? >> Right. >> Or have unexpected things come up? >> Right, right, yeah. I came through a software acquisition called CliQr Technologies and CliQr Technologies is that one tool that gives you that experience and allows you to see cloud cost. So cloud cost from a hourly, metered perspective but also from a budgeting perspective. And we're adding additional components into our platform that gives you like true cost for all of your compute, all of your network, your storage, your services like Lambda and then also makes recommendations on the instant sizes that you need to use. We have policies like suspension policies that help our customers to save on their cloud bill. In a lot of ways, the life cycle management aspect of applications is something that differentiates us from other cloud management platforms. >> Talk about the cost side and the cost of ownership. I've always been talking about the cloud as the TCO or total cost of ownership, changes a bit. What are some of the challenges that you've seen the customers having that you guys are helping with? When you look at integrating security, networking and application performance and management? Cause it's not siloed anymore. >> Yeah. >> They're integrating together. >> That's right. >> This is a new dynamic. >> Right, right. >> What's state of the art? What are you guys doing? You guys address that? What are some of the customer challenges? Just, what's your thoughts on that area? >> Yeah so most of the time there are two basic challenges to this. One is, you know bringing the cloud economy into the private cloud consumption is something that our platform does. And then also being able to visualize all the costs. Helping our customers to make good decisions about what types of workloads run where best and whether it's, so we enable, obviously, VMs as well as cloud native, container based, micro services to co-exist in a single platform so we'll deploy VMs and containers in a hybrid fashion. >> Yeah. >> Or we'll deploy them into the same and we'll give you the utilization of those workloads based on dollar amounts, based on run time and also based on the type of workload. >> So here's the curve ball question for you. Now multi cloud comes into the equation? >> Yeah. >> How do you guys deal with that because workload, in some cases, I've heard from customers that refactoring those workloads is a problem. >> Right. >> So if I'm going to run true multi cloud, I'm going to have multiple clouds, I need networks to know, have smarts, around where I want to put that and do I want it in different geography maybe or region? So the network has the intelligence on a lot of things. >> Right. >> How are you guys addressing the multi cloud component? >> Yeah, yeah. >> With workload? Without refactoring? >> Yeah. So because we can compose applications that consist of both VMs and containers, right? One of the projects, just one of the use cases that we worked on with our relationship with Google was to, from cloud center, to deploy cloud native workloads in GKE that would navigate and basically traverse the VPN network to go back into the on prem target in order to access a database that was kind of a legacy database using an API URL. So that whole workflow was something that we solved for with our reference architecture so, you know, we obviously have the portfolio of products that allows our customers to take advantage of both hardware, software and networking and security and monitoring all in one reference architecture. >> A lot of opportunities for you guys. I think you're positioned well. We've covered you guys on the DevNet, DevNet Create. >> Yeah. >> You're seeing the cloud center, this dashboard kind of model of looking at the operations side, the development side. A lot of changes. Really kind of fit right into your wheelhouse. >> Yes, yeah. >> I think the Kubernetes policy knobs, it's a big story that I'm walking away with on this trip and saying, wow, policy sounds like a networking thing. Networking guys love policy. >> Yeah. >> If you can automate it? >> Yeah, that's right. >> And managed the costs? >> Yeah. >> It's a good thing. >> Yeah. >> Thanks for coming on, appreciate your insight. >> Thank you, thank you very much. >> CUBE coverage here, day three continues. I'm John Furrier with Stu Miniman. Stay with us for wall to wall coverage here at KubeCon, CloudNativeCon. We'll be right back with more, after this short break. (upbeat techno music)

>> From Seattle, Washington, it's theCUBE! Covering KubeCon and CloudNativeCon North America 2018. Brought to you by Red Hat, the Cloud Native Computing Foundation, and it's ecosystem partners. >> Welcome back everyone, it's theCUBE's live coverage, day three of three days of coverage here at KubeCon 2018, and CloudNativeCon put on by the Linux Foundation and CNCF. I'm John Furrier with theCUBE with Stu Miniman, breaking down all the action. Our next guest is Hussein Khazaal, who's the Vice President of Marketing and Partners of Nuage Networks. Thanks for coming on, good to see you! >> Thanks, John, good to see you. >> Love that shirt, automation... >> Yeah. >> That's the theme. >> That is! (chuckles) >> Cloud native, cloud operations, thanks for coming on. So take a minute just to talk about what you guys are doing with the show, what's the key value proposition you guys are part of, what conversations you're having. >> Right so, for Nuage we basically deliver a software-based virtual networking solution. And a lot of our customers appreciate the value it brings because they have multi cloud environments, they have workloads in on-prem. Those are mixed, some VM, some bare metal, some containers, they have workloads in public cloud, and what we enable them with our software is to stitch all that together using an API-driven networking model that has policy applied to the workload, and you have that mixed workload environment with network policy and security built into that platform. And that's kind of where we help not really break what Kubernetes brings to developers, but maintain that, giving the IT and infrastructure folks the ability to have visibility control and maintain that. >> We were just talking with a partner from Google, we always talk to the same companies, so some of the senior people at AWS, and all the clouds. Obviously cloud operations is what everyone wants, that's the preferred environment, whether you're on-premises or in the cloud, Edge is now on the horizon. Storage, networking and compute is still the core, it's just a little bit different. But there's new jobs that are emerging around Kubernetes, you see the job board, but it's also revitalizing older roles, the network guy, the storage guy, the server guy, traditional IT enterprises are seeing those roles transform. So I got to ask you, as you guys are in the middle of all the networking side, how do see that person, that role, that piece of the puzzle in an IT enterprise change with Kubernetes? >> Absolutely, I mean, the one thing that we had some of our customers do is that these roles are no longer defined by a specific, you have to have these mixed skills, you have to understand what the developer needs as an infrastructure person, and the developer needs what kind of tools that they need to implement so you can do your job, and that's why Kubernetes, and when you're talking about networking and security, you have to understand Linux, you have to understand programming, to be able to give the developers the tools that they need to develop and understand the requirements and then by the same token, they need to make sure that from an intercom perspective, you need to understand, you still need the visibility, you still need control, right? And that balance can only be achieved if you kind of do the exchange roles, right? You get to work with the developers, and then the developers need to look at infrastructure and that's kind of where you stick at Kubernetes, and with what Red Hat is doing with OpenShift, and a lot of the vendors in terms of integrating with CNI, to be able to plug in and tap in and be able to deliver that security and that relief. >> I get what you're saying. I think you've got a great thread there that I want to pull on a little bit. So, I think back at networking over the last few decades, we used to call it multi-vendor, now we call it multi-cloud, we've been talking about automation forever, but it's different now. So, I think that thread you were going on is part of that answer, but explain why now, multi cloud and automation, what's that's real about that compared to what we were talking about the dominant, hardware-led environment that we lived in for decades? >> Absolutely, I mean just you look at how people develop, look at containers, the lifetime of a container is very short compared to like a monolithic application, things that are more dynamic. Some enterprises need to scale up operations, and then that's where they kind of... So early on it was more like a developer testing things in their lab and when you go into production and the rate and the scale at which you operate, dictates that, you know, look, I need to work in public cloud, I need to work with bare metal, and then that, the amount of the infrastructure guys meet that demand otherwise those enterprises are not going to be able to serve their end customers. And that's why they're kind of working with us, and even the community's coming together to address these, and we're looking with-- for performance with the vendors and then even for networking and that's what's driving that. >> Yeah, I want to get your reaction, I was talking to somebody here at the show and they said "Kubernetes is a reset for SDN." >> Yep, it is! I mean the thing is, Kubernetes as it is is perfect, there's no reason to reinvent the wheel, right? There's a lot of adaption from developers' infrastructure. What we're trying to do is build around it, you'll see orchestration on top, you'll see networking, this is such a good thing that everybody is, and you can see by the level of attendance, the level of interest, and engagement, now what we're trying to do is like grow the operation. What are the problems that are left for an enterprise to solve? And that's the multi-cloud piece, right? How do you do policy, network and security policy in that hybrid environment, right? For example, you look at a retailer, they have users using mobile apps, they have remote stores, they have data centers, they have public cloud, and then they're using containers (mumbles) how do you stitch all that together? And that's for us, the challenge that we're addressing. >> And Kubernetes gives you a lot of policy knobs, how are you guys seeing that opportunity? 'Cause that's where people see that kind of piece. >> The three letters, API, right? This API makes integration such an easy thing to do. And then we have obviously, using a CNI plug-in from a (mumbles) perspective, to be able to work in that eco-system and deliver what we do. We have, obviously you guys know that in OpenStack, they're running Kubernetes inside OpenStack and then you have people running Kubernetes on bare metal, right? But it's still Kubernetes and that's how we're able to serve our customers to kind of stitch between between those different stories. >> Alright, Hussein, let's talk about security. So, you know, when containers first came out it was all this argument of how do I architect it? Do I have to shove the thing in a VM, or now is it a micro VM? How do I make sure I ensure security? What's working well? What do we still have a lot of work to do in the security space? >> I think if you look at the three areas: visibility, protection and then the third one is dynamic further response, right? So you can't protect what you can't see and visibility is kind of the first thing that we as networking, because we move packets around, can deliver to the enterprise. The second one is isolation, is that everything you have in a pod is contained. Now between pods, if you're running in public cloud, as a bank, you may want to encrypt that traffic, right? You need to do some level of protection, whether that's in-flight protection or separation between them. The third one is, as you're moving things around and you see bad things happen, you need to not wait for a person, because you're looking at scale, like thousands of these instances that are moving around. The network is intelligent enough to act based on rules that you give it to, like if there's a threat, we'll just quarantine the source or remove traffic. This combination is what's missing and that's kind of what a lot of... >> I think that's an opportunity that's clear, but most people look at networking and say "oh, let's move it from A to B, point A to point B." It's now so much more than that, it's more headroom. What is the specific headroom on top of that? Because there's a lot of security opportunities, things are moving around, you can see the bad guys and all kinds of different threats, but not just moving packets, it's other things. What's the other key things that people should pay attention to when really designing these architectures? >> So the one thing, obviously, when you're doing things in a lab, you're not really going by scale. You're not looking at throughput, latency, things like that that's part of networking and that's kind of the work we're doing with some of the, like Mellanox, you know? On terms of providing high-throughput, providing low latency for specific applications. The other one is, how do you provide that intelligence? Like all this data has to go somewhere to be processed, to work with other security solutions. Those are the two things that maybe people don't give that much thought early on, but as you scale your operations, they become real bottlenecks for you. >> So I want to get a chance for you to get a plug in for the company, DevOps. This infrastructure, this code has kind of been kicking around since the beginning. It's actually happening, a programmable infrastructure. You know, at the app layer for coding, but now network's programmable. What are you guys doing in that area? How are you guys extending that value proposition to your customers? Why are they going with you guys? Why are you guys winning? What's the one thing that people should know about in order to come to you guys? >> Flexibility and openness, that's the key one. We are hardware agnostic, any switch, any network, any hypervisor, any CMS, content management system, that's our focus is our networking and security. Similar to Kubernertes, you can run Kubernetes anywhere. That's how we provide networking and we have an open eco-system that gives you scale, performance and security without really limiting your options. And the thing is, we have all, going forward, like people can do stuff on premises today, they may move to cloud, we don't lock you in to one architecture. The architecture's fluid and it could be whatever. You may see the future one way today, but in a couple of months as we all know, things change. >> Why would someone call you guys up? What's the paying point? What's the value? When will they know, oh okay I've got to get Nuage involved? >> Scale, multi-cloud, that's basically it. If you're looking for multi-cloud, multiple workloads and you're running things at scale, you need to talk to us because that's basically where we help you solve it. >> Hussein, talk a little bit about how Edge fits into it too. You know when you think back to even before cloud, think back to the XSPs. Networking securities have always been the choke point, physics still rules the day. We know it's only getting more complicated with Edge, more surface area for security, but I have to imagine that applies into what you're doing. >> Absolutely, I mean we've done, so as you decompose these things and you move them apart, your attack services increase, right? So the security is, as you move, those communication channels have to be protected somehow. We have an extension which is basically part of getting into the Edge, adding more intelligence at the Edge, because that traffic is coming from the Edge to the core, it goes to public cloud. And being able, as a networking solution, to steer that traffic securely using encryption or whatever have you in terms of visibility, provides those enterprises with a secure, sound platform to really do their business. >> What's your take on the show? 8,000 people up from 4,000. We were comparing it earlier to Adobe's Reinvent. A rising tide, is it a tsunami? >> Absolutely, I mean I couldn't believe the number when they said it because obviously we saw they'd sold out the tickets, but coming here to see all that many people and there have been earlier shows and the growth is tremendous. >> Well thanks for coming for coming on and sharing your insight and congratulations on the scale, we love it. Data, scale, programmable networks, it's all part of the new evolution of cloud native. It's on premises, it's in the cloud, multiple workloads, multiple clouds. This is the choice everyone has, they're rebuilding. Don't forget networking compute and storage, it's still a Holy Trinity there. Congratulations, thanks for coming on. >> Thank you very much. >> More live coverage here at theCUBE, here in Seattle for KubeCon and CloudNativeCon, day three of three days of coverage, this is theCUBE, we'll be right back after this short break. (upbeat music)

live from Vancouver Canada it's the cube OpenStack summit North America 2018 brought to you by Red Hat the OpenStack foundation and its ecosystem partners welcome back I'm Stu minimun here at the OpenStack summit 2018 in Vancouver with my co-host John Troyer happy to welcome to the program a first-time guest Charles Ferlin who's the vice president of business development at nuage networks thanks for joining us thank you for having me all right so the OpenStack show we're always talking about the maturity of it where customers are going with it you're in business development so what one of the one of the things we were discussing from the keynote this morning is the telcos and the service providers and who's doing what and you know who makes up that environment so it gives us your free point what you're seeing as to you know where some of the real action is in this in this marketplace fair enough we've been talking about nav for example for many years as you know but I would say probably since the second half of 2016 that we've started to see some significant large deployment and the service provider service provider paying attention to building up a telco cloud to host their VN nav applications right so so really from the second half of 26 16 2017 we've seen massive deployments of OpenStack with a service provider and a lot of them to host applications to serve their branch office customers yeah that's that's an another motivation for them to deploy this yes so Charles you know we've talked to the 18 t Verizon you know Deutsche Telekom's up there all these big ones but I look at it and say is this an opportunity of 20 global you know you know you know telcos or is do we go down to some of the MSP CSPs however you want to call those service providers a regional one you know they're some of the regional ones that maybe aren't as much telcos or are they where's that line what do you see is kind of the TAM if you will for this space obviously the large service provider will have a piece there but we see a lot of regional customer consuming services from a local provider right they do have either for language reasons for regulation and in governance so we see a lot of them consuming services from a local service provider so an openstack sort of became the building block of these and if the infrastructure for the service provider yeah it's interesting we actually just had a infrastructure as a service company from Australia okay on and I said you know you look at their website it doesn't say OpenStack anywhere they provide cloud offerings so it's one of the things there's all these telcos and service fighters that use it but it's not like they're like we're your preferred distribution of OpenStack it's just part of the plumbing underneath the use cases that that are address buh-bye OpenStack and served by OpenStack really fits well and a lot of the telco space right now yeah so we've seen a lot of growth for virtual private cloud we see a lot of growth for a dynamically deploying application having application residing in the data center or moving closer to the users at the edge for example and these are sort of the use cases that nuage and OpenStack address pretty well well that's an interesting pivot point right I understand as an enterprise technologist why software-defined networking is important right it's important in your stack it's got to be important inside of an open OpenStack but can you talk a little bit about some of these use cases like I hadn't really thought about SD win and how that that really and what architectures and deployments would really kind of mean that they would need to deploy that with some and that's a good point because really NT as the win served as the catalyst for the service providers who start paying attention to deploying an NFV infrastructure before that there was an interest it was a motivation however SD wins be offered of dynamic flexible agile branch office connectivity that allows them to dynamically insert value-added services so yes as the one provided connectivity between the branch office but really where is the service provider are going after is offering Application Firewall DDoS services or URL filtering in all of these applications residing in the data center and all of a sudden as I hold on I cannot have it as the one solution disjoint from my data center OpenStack deployment and this is where the nuage actually served as a connecting to both environment but also this is what served as a catalyst the sd1 deployment sort of a catalyst for for them to start deploying a dynamic infrastructure in today's yes so Charles just on the SD way in piece itself we've seen a lot of activity that bunch of acquisitions in that market what what differentiates nuage in in this space well fair enough we've seen these acquisition as a complement to the strategy that we have taken over the past five years paying off we are from the get-go started to have an end-to-end as the in solution so it's not just about connecting branch office together it's not about just connecting application in the data center it's actually connecting the users in the branch office with the applications in the data center or in the public cloud and what differentiate us the most is that we have the exact same platform the same as the n solution and 2n to connect branch office programming branch routers or programming virtual switches in the data center or bare metal physical service so that is perhaps new our single most biggest differentiator is the capability to have that single policy that singled as the n framework from the users and branch to the data center or public cloud alright you've mentioned bare metal I remember it was funny when the project came out for bare metal of course it's called ironic because most people can't win OpenStack started it was it's a good name in that it was virtualized environment of course today we've got containers starting to go up the stack with kubernetes so we understand why bare metals there what are you seeing in that space and and what what kind of what do you hear from your customers so we we have a lot of traction with ironic actually it's ironic but we do and we did that actually in open Saxony in November we did a Coe presentation with Fujitsu who deployed our k5 infrastructure using nagy networks and ironic integration to roll out on top of that is flexible you can put a platform as a service they can do whatever they want on top of it but the bare amount of provisioning is somewhere we is a we have a couple of large accounts that they have deployed this globally yeah okay are you working with the cotta containers that they have here and whether you are not would love to hear kind of the security story when we talk things everything for bare metal in containers and what you're doing with OpenStack and that's that's perhaps the other the biggest differentiator we have is because we're able to have the single networking policies from a container to or programming the network of a container or a KVM VM or hyper-v or the we have the symbol their single as the end platform and we're able we see all the therefore we see all the traffic in the data pack and we're able to index this into a elasticsearch database right and and in creating an index and set a lot of users to create some thresholds and that is what is perhaps the newest thing at knowledge is the capability now to say hey once those thresholds or cross why don't we reprogram the network dynamically so near realtor in real near-real-time we're actually able to take an action to reprogram the network based on some live feed that's what can information that we're receiving from the the various element that we have program either in the branch office or in a container level okay so today cotta containers is not something you're involved with or I didn't quite that cotta containers from the new high-level project from the the OpenStack foundation I don't know right now but but your customers are using container technology docker and various others we have an integration with kubernetes so we provide CNI they're absolutely involved there and this is how a lot of our customers are using us right now and the customers we're talking about these would often be service providers is that is that correct in the context of containers and kubernetes it would mainly be on the enterprise okay out of an agile type of development where they want to have a there's a lot of developer and they want to have the networking program and the same life cycle as the application project is rolling out and having the micro segmentation meaning that we are able to isolate each one of the project from one another so in if one gets contaminated the other one doesn't and so this is where a lot of the kubernetes and deployment has been on the on the large enterprise okay that makes sense because I'm trying to as a as a person outside the telecom industry but but following kind of the enterprise and OpenStack it's interesting to see this vision of the service providers who are not dumb pipes certainly but through OpenStack and these these the nfe and the services they are able to provision with folks like nuage you know able to provide services so just trying to figure out where the line you know maybe you could draw us a picture of you know what what the modern service provider will be able to provide versus what's still left then for the at the enterprise level depending on which market size analysis analyst you're looking at you know is depends VPN connectivity will be it it varies between two to six to eight to twelve it's a relatively contained small market compared to the applicator to manage applications right manage security that's tenfold that that market race so really as you said the the objective here if the service provider is not to to become a dumb virtual pipe and the ability to dynamically insert some value-added services over the top and this is what having an agile as the when now gives them the capability to say hold on a second I can now start serving a value-added application because my dynamic network is available now and this is this is what is fueling a lot of the OpenStack deployment right now in the datacenter yeah Charles one of discussions we've been looking at the last couple of years is there's OpenStack and then there's containers and kubernetes everything how do you see those go together what are you hearing from customers general discussion here but I'd love to hear some real-world so yeah in the context of ironic as we just mentioned a lot of the time the bare metal servers are actually deployed using OpenStack and what goes on top of it is actually kubernetes right and this is very common and it gives that isolation or its deploying a virtual machine running a pass platform in there right so so actually we do see the OpenStack to be used often to deploy the the infrastructure and program and provision I should say the infrastructure and whatever goes on top it could be kubernetes and work just a very nicely Charles you've been involved with OpenStack for many years I had this is how many OpenStack summits well probably eight and a weight or more yeah how are you seeing the OpenStack community evolved what do you I know you've just arrived which day one here at this summit you know beautiful Vancouver but in terms of the energy of the community the the people who are here it's a little bit smaller this year but it you know we've got people here are actual users and actual deployers so exactly yeah thoughts there so this is perhaps the well we went through a marketing height which is great however what I would say regardless of the event today in general the OpenStack community is a lot more mature it's a lot more stable as well and in the product and the product the technology at the community is more focused around solving real use cases and real problem couple years ago there was a lot of interest a lot of hype you know but it would have solve world world hunger as well right now I think it's very pointed very precise and I'm actually new I was quite proud to be participating in contributing in that community because we're starting to see the technology really addressing key key problems here all right Charles last thing I wanted to ask is the network sits in a very special place when you talk about really the multi cloud world that customers are talking about what are you seeing when it comes to that environment you know how do customers figure out where they put their applications are they moving you know things or is it just kind of a heterogeneous but still complicated world they're still figuring out that's right I mean that it's a very dynamic environment but I would say if I had to draw a conclusion most of the customers are deploying the application on-premise they like to have either for storage either for some of the governance they do I like to have applications on-premise however the multi cloud scenario is often used in large banks to compute or a large organization to compute on a burst capability right the capability to say hey I need to have X compute power available for X time is very appealing for them and this is how most of the deployment of nuage are used right now is having doing the plumbing the virtual plumbing inside a data center and dynamically based on demand the capability to do the same networking policy the same networking extension to one of the public cloud offering is very appealing because it sporadic it's a burst type of scenario yeah especially a lot of those service providers have that direct ability right as well correct correct and it you're right that it can become a little bit complex when you have when you want to to deploy nets with the same that's working policies across on-premise and multiple cloud provider and if you have interim service provider then it becomes a little bit complicated to have to orchestrate all of it and this is where Sdn gives them that hardware abstraction and and maintain the same networking policy well Charles Berlin appreciate the update on nuage and all of your viewpoints from from the customers that you're seeing my pleasure very very much for John Troyer I'm Stu Mittleman back with more coverage here at the open sex I'm at 2018 in Vancouver thanks for watching the Q [Music]

>> Announcer: Live from Barcelona, Spain, it's theCUBE, covering Cisco Live 2018, brought to you by Cisco, Veen and theCUBE's ecosystem partners. (upbeat electronic music) >> Hey, welcome back, everyone, to our live coverage from theCUBE here in Barcelona, Spain, for exclusive coverage of Cisco Live 2018 in Europe. I'm John Furrier, cofounder and cohost of theCUBE, with my cohost this week, Stu Miniman. Been to many events also, senior analyst at wikibon.com. Stu and I have been breaking down all the action here in the DevNet zone. And we have with us here as our guest, Ashley Roach, who is a principal engineer and evangelist with Cisco. DevNet himself, has full view of what's going on. Welcome to theCUBE. >> Hey, thanks for having me. Appreciate it. >> Good to see you again. We covered DevNet Create, which was really our first foray into what DevNet was doing outside of the Cisco ecosystem, bringing that cloud-native developer into the Cisco fold. Here, it's the Cisco show where all the Cisco ecosystem and your customers are growing into the cloud and programming with DevNet. So congratulations, it's been phenomenal. It's been one of the top stories we've been covering as DevNet has just been explosive. >> Oh, thanks a lot. It's been a lot of hard work. >> People have been learning, they're coding, they're being inspired, and they're connecting, It's a very sharing culture. Props to you guys and the team. Well done. >> Ashley: Appreciate it. >> So what is DevNet? I mean, this is a cultural shift. We've been reporting on theCUBE all year and last year. But really this year, end of last year, we started really putting the stake in the ground saying we are going to see a renaissance in software development. Linux foundations, reporting that there's going to be exponential growth in code and open-source. You seeing that you can create intellectual property with only 10% of the energy codewise, 90% using open-source. They call that the code sandwich. Again, this is just data that they're sharing, but it points to the bigger trend. Developers are becoming the important part of the equation, and the integration of the stack from network to application, are working together. And again, proof point's there, things like Kubernetes, containers, have obviously been out there for a long time. You're starting to see the visibility for developers. >> Right. >> John: You're at Cisco, you're in the middle of all this. You're seeing one side of the camp and the other. >> Ashley: Yeah. >> What's your view? >> Yeah, I think that's a good, it captures a lot of the dynamics that are going on right now in the environments. And I mean, for me, I come at this from an application developer standpoint. I actually, when I joined Cisco, I was not a hardware guy at all (laughs) Frankly, I'm not even now. I'm much more oriented towards software, and so when we've seen, though, sort of the power of the underlying infrastructure that gets married up to some of these overlay systems like Kubernetes and containers, more and more of the infrastructure on one hand is getting abstracted, which you might think, oh, uh oh. Like, that's a problem. But in reality, the infrastructure still needs to be there, right? You can't run your serverless function out of thin air. >> John: Yeah. >> At least not yet. >> John: It's truly not serverless. There's servers somewhere. >> Yeah, exactly. So, you know, those are the funny jokes that we like to have in the industry, right? But at the same time, you want to think like, okay, well I'm writing my application, I'm a developer. I don't want to know about infrastructure. My whole job is I don't care about that. But there is information and utility in the data that you can get from the infrastructure because at some point, your application will fail. You may have some bugs, and yeah, Kubernetes may kill your container and bring up another one. But you still need to de-bug that issue, and so yeah, you can get tracking, you can get analytics. But also, you can get that stuff from that infrastructure that's underlying it. And so, like one of the presentations I'm doing tomorrow, I wrote just kind of a proof of concept sample app where it's a Spring Boot app that has a built-in health check capability. It ties into APIC-EM and or DNA Center and uses that information that's available about the network. So maybe it's your, from your firewall to your application, you can run a path trace and just have that happen every five minutes or something like that, or check the health of an entire environment every, you know, so often. And then your application can resolve issues or have just data about it so that we can keep moving. >> Yeah, actually, you know, I love that comment you talked, you know, you're not a hardware person, and that's okay. >> Ashley: Right. >> And there's lots of people here at the Cisco show that aren't. That's a change from just a few years ago. How is that dynamic changing? You know, I remember for a few years I was arguing like every networking person needs to become a coder and there's, you know, push back and people are scared and what's going to happen to my job and can I learn that skill set? >> Ashley: Right. >> The bar for entry seems pretty low these days but how do we translate some of those languages? >> Yeah, I think that perception of say, an ops person becoming a programmer, it's not really the right mindset. >> Right. >> There's a couple mindsets, though, that are important. So one of the things we're trying to do is foster the DevOps culture somewhat. And to do that, an ops person has to understand and have empathy for the problems that exist on the application side and vice versa. So for us, we're just trying to education people in that vein. >> John: Yeah. >> But all of the infrastructure is now also automatable and you don't have to automate at low level. You can automate it with things like Ansible, which is a bit more accessible for people that haven't been programming for a long time. So, you know, I think those are the things that we see and that we're trying to encourage within our community and just broadly speaking, I would say, in the industry. >> You brought up empathy, interesting. Because this is a cultural shift, right? So this mindset, this cultural DNA, you have to have empathy. But it's kind of like the Venn diagram. Empathy is one circle. >> Ashley: Mhm. >> Feasibility is another and viability is the other, right? >> Ashley: Mhm. >> So it's always in context to what you can get done, right? So you guys at DevNet have a good view of the development environment. What are some of the challenges and what are the opportunities for folks in the Cisco ecosystem to get their hands dirty, get down and dirty with the tech-- >> Ashley: Oh, yeah. >> Where they can do feasible, viable projects that are possible. Well, seeing Python certainly is one approach. Great for data wrangling, but you know, you got Node.js out there, has been a great language. >> Ashley: Yep. >> App guys are doing Node.js because of JavaScript in server-side. >> Ashley: Yep. >> You got a lot of IO that sounds like a network service mindset. Is there things that you see going on around that what's possible and what's kind of moonshot like projects and where should people start? >> Well, I think, again, kind of going to this historical point of view, it used to be you had one programming book and you're sitting there, you know, late at night copying code from that. And maybe it came with a CD and you could download, you know, your sample code onto your hard drive. And then, you know, you'd be sitting there flipping back and forth and then you hit an issue. You're like, I don't know what to do. Maybe you're trying to teach yourself. I don't have any friends that are programmers. I mean, today, with, I built the vast amount of resources that are available online. You know, like, we have our DevNet Learning Labs. And so that's the set of tutorials that we've provided, but that's not the only thing out there. You've got Code School, Codeacademy. You've got the loops out there. I mean, shoot, MIT, Stanford, they're all putting their courseware in open-source. So the universe of educational material for people to understand this stuff and get started is really, really awesome now. And then also, it's easier than ever, I think,. to actually code because you're, again, like code is becoming more and more abstract at higher level languages. So Python, Node.js, those are still kind of low level, but there are packages on top of those, you know, middleware and Node.js, to build a web server. You get Express or sales or whatever, and then you're kind of off to the races. Like Spring Boot is crazy. It used to be Spring was a bit of a pain in the butt with, you know-- >> Yeah. >> Ashley: All the dependency, injection and everything. But with Spring Boot, now you just add, you know, a dependency, and you've got an entire web framework or an authorization framework or whatever. And that was like, I was pretty blown away when I started seeing-- >> So it's a lot easier. >> It's, yeah, it's just a lot easier. Things are more curated. You have certain stacks. You know, it used to be LAMP stack, now you got ELK stack for data things, you got, you know, and so on. So the universe is wide open for a lot of people to program today. >> So Ashley, love the training angles that you talked about there. But what I bring to mind, a little bit orthogonal to what we've been talking about here-- >> Ashley: Ooh, good programmer buzzword there. >> But one that John and I have been asking about, you mentioned open-source. >> Yes. >> So obviously, things like Spring, lot of things you mentioned are open-source. >> Yes. >> But what about Cisco's, you know, involvement in the community, giving back to open-source. What's the philosophical, you know, viewpoint-- >> Yeah. >> From Cisco's standpoint? >> Yeah, we're active in open-source. We're big contributors to OpenStack, for example. You know, we've got some of, we've created like a CNI module for Kubernetes called Contiv. And so that's in open-source. We, you know, in DevNet, we publish tons of things in open-source, just code samples and you know, example projects and so on. Cisco's actually a big contributor to the Linux kernel, so it's a long legacy of open-source at Cisco. So it's part of our culture. >> So there's no restrictions on everybody going on GitHub, throwing their stuff in, being part of the communities-- >> There's certainly restrictions. Yeah, we have processes that we're supposed to follow. I mean, we got to protect the intellectual property when we need to. I mean, it's the way it is for working at a company. But at the same time, you know, there is viable processes if it makes business sense to open-source things. >> I mean, the line John's used, you know, for the last year or so, is GitHub, that's people's resumes these days. >> Yeah, absolutely. >> So we want to make sure, what I'm saying is it sounds like the ecosystem at Cisco, friendly for the developers to come in, participate. You got a business to run, obviously. Legal keeps their eye on stuff, but you know, Cisco's out there. We saw it in the container ecosystem, OpenStack-- >> Ashley: Yes. >> Stu: Kubernetes, Linux, absolutely-- >> Yeah. >> Stu: Not just even in networking but beyond that. See a lot of Cisco out there, so-- >> Yeah, great. >> So my question for you, personal question. If you could talk to your 22 year old self right now-- >> Ashley: Oh, wow, yeah. >> You're high school, actually, you're college or college graduate, what would you say to yourself knowing what you know now? 'Cause this is a really interesting point. I mean, at my age, we used to build stuff straight up from the bottom of the stack to the top, and it was a lot of heavy lifting. Now you're really kind of getting into some engineering here and then some composite Lego block kind of thinking where these frameworks could just snap together. Sometimes (mumbles) But it's a lot cooler now. I mean, I wish I was 22. What would you say to your 22 year old self out there? What would you advise yourself? What would you say to yourself? >> Where's my smoking jacket? (John laughs) Yeah, so, I mean, I was a liberal arts undergrad and I did take computer programming classes. So I did a couple courses in C toward the end of my time in university, and that's because I've always been interested in technical, you know, in programming and stuff. But I think probably I would have maybe stayed another year to try to maybe get an actual CS degree. So that might be one thing, I think the other-- >> John: What would you jump on today if you saw all of this awesome code, open-source? I mean, like, it's like open bar in the coding party. I mean-- >> Yeah, it's overwhelming. >> It's so many things to jump on and-- >> You know, obviously, joking, I should say blockchain and machine learning and AI, right? But actually, I would say the machine learning and AI stuff is probably a good, interesting, you know, wave of technology, yeah. >> I just want to, you know, we're talking about your 22 year old self. How about your kids? >> Ashley: Yeah. >> You're working with your kids, checking out your GitHub on there. So, you know, maybe share, you know, younger people. You know, how do they get involved? In the keynote yesterday, it was, you know, jobs of the future. >> Right, well, yeah. For my kids, I have two daughters. And so, I try to encourage them to at least be familiar with coding. I've tried to teach them Linux some, but we've done programming classes, but it's kind of hard sometimes to get them interested in something like programming, to be honest. So some of it's trying to be creative problem solvers, trying to craft that sort of attitude, you know. So that then, when they do get the opportunity to do some programming, that they'll be interested about it. >> I mean, the young kids love gaming. Gaming's a good way to get people in. >> Yep. >> VR is now an interesting-- >> I mean, Minecraft and Sims, those are the two that my oldest daughter loves. I mean, the thing I remember that's the funniest was when you know, of course, this was when we all got computers back in the day and we did keyboards, right, in order to do stuff. So I got the first iPad when it came out and I brought it home and my daughter, who was, I think, six or eight at the time, she's like, "Cool, I understand this." Like automatically understood it. But then, she went to the TV and it had icons on it. So she walked up to the TV and tried to do that, and I was like, "Oh, that's funny." Like her mental model is this. >> Yeah. >> Where our mental model was that and so on earlier on. >> My oldest son says, "Dad, search engine is so your generation," (Ashley laughs) Not even email, like search, Google search. >> Yeah, the digital, it's like the digital native thing. On the other hand, we actually are fairly restrictive about like cell phone and mobile because it's a lot. That sort of thing. They really, really are going to face some interesting, I don't know, social, you know, the social things that you have in high school and middle school now multiplied and amplified through all that. We're sort of cautious, too, as parents, you know. >> Lot of societal issues to deal with. Alright, now getting back to DevNet here, I want to get your thoughts because we had a big setup here. One of the things that the folks people can't see on camera is we're in the DevNet zone. You see behind us, but there's everywhere else around. It's really the big story at Cisco Live and has been for awhile. Every year it gets bigger. It's like, it keeps growing in interest. What do you guys show here? What's the purpose? Give a little quick, take a minute to explain the DevNet approach this year-- >> Okay. >> John: And how it's different-- >> Yeah. >> John: And how you guys take this going forward. >> So the DevNet zone, philosophically, we tried to have the experiential. We don't want people to come in here and get death by PowerPoint of hey, check out this awesome new product that we created. You know, that kind of thing. >> Yeah. >> Instead, we want people to come in and have the opportunity to sit down, either by themselves or with a friend or, you know, with one of us to be able to work through sort of tutorials so that we have this area of the Learning Labs or learn about the DevNet sandbox. That's another area that we have where that is a sort of try it out, live, always-on, cloud service that we provide for anyone. We also have, of course, examples of example use cases. So we have some IOT and collaboration use cases that we're demonstrating in the new APIs that have come out of those products that you wouldn't think may be necessarily, oh, collaboration and IOT really are connected. But in fact, you know, ultimately you need to get a human involved when you have exceptions. And in a lot of cases like for edge compute scenarios, it's exception oriented. So when we, the example that we have here is we have a truck that's sitting on a handcrafted scale that's like a raspberry pie thing that one of our evangelists, Casey Bleeker, made. And it's putting, you know, analog data into our container that's running on an edge device. And when an exception occurs when the scale has this truck on it with too many stones in the back, then it triggers an alert. It creates a team room for people to come and escalate and discuss. It'll make a phone call automatically to the truck driver and pull people together to deal with that situation. But then, additionally, we have a new room capabilities with like, our telepresence systems. And that has face identification, not like from identifying the user standpoint, but it knows it can count how many people are in the room, for example. So if you combine that sort of IOT capability with this collaboration unit that's going to already be there, you're getting kind of a win-win of that infrastructure in the rooms. >> Ashley, talked about there's so many different things going on there, what's exciting you the most? Where are you seeing the most people, you know, gravitating around? >> Yeah, in the DevNet zone in general? >> Well, it can be here or in general, yeah. >> Well, I think one thing in the DevNet zone, we also have a white hat black hat challenge. So that's been very, very popular. What we're doing is demonstrating using, you know, off the shelf hacker tools, how vulnerable some IOT devices are to give people. It's kind of a you've heard about it, now experience it and do it yourself to see how easy it really is. And then see, of course, how our solutions can help you mitigate those problems. So that's, you know, IOT security is a big concern, I think, in general, and so I think that's an exciting spot for people-- >> So hands-on learning, very people-oriented, very open-- >> Yes, yep. >> The motto I love, I'm reading on the thing there, learn code, inspire, connect. So learn, toe in the water, connect-- >> Ashley: Yes. >> Share. >> Yeah. >> Mentor, collaborate. >> The other thing that we're sort of soft launching, I guess, is we have a new application developer site on DevNet, and so-- >> John: What's the URL? >> It is developer.cisco.com/site/app-dev. >> John: Okay, that's good. Memorize that, quiz later. >> Yeah. >> That's long, just search. >> Yeah, right, right. >> Hey, Alexa. >> Right, so, but with that, we're trying to make it easier for people to understand the use cases for what kinds of applications they can build using our technology. So indoor location, using kind of doing maps and heat maps and building that kind of scenario, for example. >> Awesome. >> Ashley: Through T-Mobile and video and such. >> As you are evangelizing your engine on the engineering side, what's the plans going forward? Post-event, obviously, you've got Cisco Live in Orlando this year, it's in 2018. >> Ashley: Yeah, we have-- >> But you guys got a lot of these going on, you got a lot of digital content. What's the outreach plan? Where should people expect to see you guys? Share the going forward plan. >> Yeah, I wish I knew where everyone was going to be. So thankfully, on the website-- >> They're on the internet! >> We have an events calendar, so I would definitely encourage you to look there if you're interested in connecting with one of us. We have the Cisco Live in Melbourne then Orlando. We also have DevNet Create in April and that's in Mountain View, I think, Bay Area. So would love to have people come out to that, and kind of the theme of that last year, which was the inaugural one, continues this year, which is where apps need infrastructure. So we want to kind of continue this conversation about DevOps, how, you know, applications and infrastructure-- >> John: Yeah. >> Can benefit each other. >> And just for the folks watching, theCUBE was at the inaugural DevNet Create. We'll be there again, we'll also be in Orlando. And again, this is important, we'll end on this point. I'd like you to take a minute to explain the difference between DevNet and DevNet Create because this is really interesting. I like the way you guys are doing this. It's really open, but it's pretty transparent. So share the difference between DevNet and DevNet Create. >> Yeah, so DevNet is our developer program, and so that's a website-- >> Before Cisco and-- >> It's Cisco, it's oriented towards those things. DevNet Create is more about forming a community to solve these problems about applications and infrastructure. So that intersection, whether you call it DevOps, whether you call it I don't know what, potatoes and you know, something. Something in there, you know, there is this fluid spot where applications are looking more like infrastructure, infrastructure is starting to look more like applications. So what does that mean and how do we explore that together to, you know-- >> We call it cloud-native. >> Ashley: Yeah. >> It's a set of developers who just, like you, don't really want to get involved in network but love it to be more magical. >> Right. >> Right? And Cisco folks love Cisco because they're in that world, right? So-- >> Yes. >> To me, it's really interesting you guys do that. Congratulations. >> Yeah, thanks. And it's not just for Cisco people, right? So Cisco Live and DevNet Zone is that. For Create, it's actually the inverse. We encourage people from the community to come and check it out as opposed to the-- >> John: Props to you guys, great stuff. Cisco, DevNet Zone is where theCUBE is. Of course DevNet Create is going to be outside of the Cisco ecosystem. Connecting the two is really the key. We're living in a world, global connected devices, connected people, that's the mission of Cisco. Love that vision, but of course, we're theCUBE, bringing you the live content here in Barcelona. All, of course, is available online, youtube.com/siliconangle. Of course, thecube.net is our new site. Check it out. I'm John Furrier with Stu Miniman. More live coverage coming from Barcelona with theCUBE after this short break. (upbeat electronic music)

from Austin Texas it's the cube covering cube con and cloud native con 2017 brought to you by Red Hat the Lenox foundations and the cubes ecosystem partners hello everyone welcome to the cube live in Austin Texas for exclusive coverage of cloud native conference and cube con cube con with the linux foundation on john fourier co-founder silicon angle media tube Minutemen with ricky bond and also covering the developer community we just came off Amazon reinvent last week we're now in Austin Texas for a continuation of the Builder theme around this new generation of developers exclusive coverage of cloud native con and cube con or cube cons to cube con like kubernetes john byrne not to be confused with the cube of course when 2018 we're gonna do cube con right John yeah so cube con is coming to check for local listings around an area near you will be will be there stew what a great event I love this events one of my favorite events as you know personally for the cube audience out there and who know us I've been following us we've been growing up with this community we've been covering the Linux Foundation from the beginning if you go back to our roots around 2010 we've always been on the next wave whether it was big date of the converge infrastructure on the enterprise and then cloud the cube is always on the wave and then wave and we call that we were there when kubernetes was formed we were there with the principles JJ when and his team cuz Maddock with blue Tucker kind of brain so me hey we should do kubernetes and we said then kubernetes would be huge it would be the orchestration that would be the battleground in what we were at the time calling the middleware of the cloud turns out that was true that is happening huge change in the ecosystem as containerization with docker originally starting it and then the evolution of how software developers are voting with their workloads they're voting with their code and no better place than the Linux Foundation to your analysis obviously we're super excited but there's some dynamics going on there's a class of venture backed companies that I won't say are groping for a strategic position are certainly investing in open source but brings up the questions of the business model where's the value being created what is the right strategy do I do services do I have a different approach there's a lot of different opinions and if the customers choose wrong they could be on the wrong side of history as this massive wave of innovation with AI machine learning is impacting infrastructure and DevOps it's awesome we heard Netflix on stage let's do what's your take what's going on here cloud native cons yeah so so John I love you know Dan who were you know runs the CN CF gets out on stage and he says you know it's exciting time for boring infrastructure maybe maybe too exciting I even said you know we've been watching this wave of you know containerization and kubernetes and this whole CN CF ecosystem has really taken you know that container piece and exploded beyond this really talking about how I build for these cloud native environments you know there's 14 projects here kubernetes is the one that kicked it off but so many pieces of what's happening here john AWS last week phenomenal like 45,000 people a lot of the real builders the ones you know heavily involved in projects or like ah I actually might skip AWS come to come to coop con this coop con this is where you know so many people we've seen you know founders of companies working on so many projects you know large community you know great community focus I know you like Netflix up there talking about culture big diversity I think what was it 130 scholarships for people of diversity there so really phenomenal stuff you know this is where really that multi-cloud world is being built yeah and good points too because that's really the elephant in the room which is the prophets and the monetization of developer communities is not the primary but it's a big driver and how people are behaving and Amazon reinvent in this world are parallel universes you know it's interesting you don't see a lot of reinvent hoodies I wore mine last night got a couple dirty looks but this is you see a lot of Google you see a lot of Microsoft John John John we have Adrian Cockcroft was in the keynote this morning everybody's saying we're braising the databases here you don't think that's the case I think everyone does embrace it isn't number one isn't really no second place they're far back as I said at reinvent I still stand by that but you got big players okay dan cohen basically said on stage okay it's my projects products and profits and they're putting profits actually in the narrative because they're not shying away from soup but it's not a pay-to-play kind of ecosystem here it's like saying look at the visibility of the cloud has shine the light on the fact that there is an opportunity to create value of which value then can be translated to monetization and developers like to get paid no one likes that do things totally for free that is the scoreboard of value it's not just about chasing the dollar and I think I like how the CN CF is putting out the prophets saying look at this real value here in businesses is real value in products that come from these projects this is a new era and open source I think that's legit again pay-to-play is a completely different animal yeah vendors come in control the standards pay pay pay not anymore Brendan burns told me last year Microsoft no pay to play Microsoft's got a big platform they're gonna come in and make things happen ok so John the money thing is a big question I have coming into this week dan talked up on stage there's certified service providers for kubernetes and there's certified kubernetes partners 42 certified kubernetes partners for the most part kubernetes has been commoditized today that certification doesn't mean that hundred-percent everything works but it definitely over a you know short period of time it will be means that I if I choose any platform that uses kubernetes that certified I can move from one to the other it doesn't mean that I'm actually going to make money selling kubernetes it's that that's part of the platform or services that arm offering and it is an enabler and you know that's what's a little different you think about you know John we try for years OpenStack thought we were gonna make money on it how we're gonna make money even go back to Linux you know it's what can be built using this set of tools so people have said this is really rebuilding the analytics for the cloud environment but money is kind of its derivative off of it it's an enabler to are there great software it brilliants dude this is the bottom line here it's the tale of two stories in the industry okay this in the backdrop is this and if prices are an IT specifically in development teams platforms are shifting big time the old is an old guard as Andy Jackson said the invest in a new guard the dynamics are containerization drove megatrend number one that turbocharged the cloud infrastructure and gave developers some freedom micro-services then take it to another level what it's actually done has changed at two theaters in the industry theater one is the vendors that are getting funded that participants in open source work trying to create value and then what I would call the rest of the market there is an onboarding a tsunami of new developers coming in I'm seeing in the in theater one all the people that we know in the industry and then I'm seeing new faces these are people who are going to the light the light is the monetization and that's the value creation so you seeing people here for the first time you're seeing developers who have a clear line of sight that this community creates value so that's two dynamics so that the companies that got a hundred million dollars in funding from venture capitals they're trying to figure out can they take advantage of that wave of new developers there's been an in migration into cloud native of new developers and these are the ones they're going to be creating the value the creativity the solutions and certainly the cultural impact from those solutions will be great I see a great opportunity if people just don't get scared and just hold the line keep your hitting value it'll figure itself out so the evolution is natural and that is something I'm interesting to see okay and John the thing I'm looking for this week first of all when we talked about containers we talked about this whole cloud native environment that boring infrastructure stuff it still matters networking has matured a little bit there's the CNI initiative the cloud native I'm sorry container networking interface which is approaching one auto they're getting feedback here second one is storage most of the these solutions we really started talking about stateless environments state absolutely has to be a piece of this how do we fit you know you know data AI ml all these things data is critically critically important so that needs to be there and then the new technology that you know we spent a lot of time talking about at AWS that was serverless and there's actually like a half day track here at this show talking about how all of these solutions how serverless fits into them there was a question does serverless replace the because I don't need to think about it really a lot of the same tooling a lot of these usage will fit into those server lists frameworks so it's not in either/or but really more of an an environment but definitely something that we expect to hear more of this we've done we've got a phenomenal lineup I'm super excited did you know some of these builders that we've got you know big players we've got startups we've got authors we've got a good diverse audience coming on the cube so and you know I know near and dear to your heart you know lots of developer talk a lot of their over talks do this is a fun time the commoditization of kubernetes is actually a good thing in my mind I think there will be a lot of value to be created and this really is about multi cloud you mentioned all three of the major clouds and now Maurice are all a bob on stage just in China you got a lot more growth you're seeing that kubernetes really is an opportunity for Google and Microsoft and the rest of the community to run as fast as they can to create services so that customers can have a choice choice is the new black that's what's going on and multi-cloud not yet here but certainly on the horizon and if Google and Azure do not establish a mike-mike multi cloud environment Amazon could run away with it that's my that's my tag that's my visibility on it the bottom line is whoever can creates the value so what I'm gonna look for is the impact of the continued kubernetes kinda monetization and the new formations do the new relationships the existing players like red hat are going to continue to kick ass you're gonna start to see new players come in you can expect to see new partnerships because the stack is being developed very fast smooth announcements for me theists flew and deke container D Windows support coming with 1.9 kubernetes what's happening is they're running as fast as they can they're pedaling as fast as they can because if they do not they will be blown away that's the cube coverage here kicking off day one I'm John Purdue minimun exciting times here at cloud native and cube on back after this short break

(Upbeat Music) >> Announcer: Live from Los Angeles, it's theCUBE, covering Open Source Summit, North America, 2017, brought to you by the Linux Foundation and The Red Hat. >> Hey, welcome back everyone, live here in Los Angeles, California for theCUBE's exclusive coverage of Open Source Summit in North America. I'm John Furrrier, with my co-star Stu Miniman, Our next guest is Patrick Chanezan, who is a member of the technical docker, also on the governing board of the Cloud Native Compute Foundation, also known as CNCF, which is the hottest part of the open-source community right now. It's very fast, we're very trendy, a lot of people are on the bandwagon, a lot of contribution going on. Welcome back to theCUBE. Great to see you. >> Hey, thanks, John and Stu, it's very good to be back on theCUBE. >> Docker's been just a great company to follow since the beginning, the birth of Docker to the transformation from Dark Cloud to Docker. It's just a great team. We have a lot of respect for you guys. Congratulations. But the CNCF right now is the hottest thing, there's more platinum sponsors than I think maybe members. It seems to be very hot. Industry loves it, developer is going crazy about it, why is CNCF so hot? What's your perspective on that? >> What we're seeing right now is really the realization of adoption of containers, we talked about it two years ago. It was very early, and people were starting to use Docker and just covering containers. Today they're really putting them into production, and what we see at Docker with our customer base is that they are using it more and more to modernize traditional applications. So we see tremendous use of containers everywhere in enterprises, and the rise of CNCF is tied to that, I think. We're seeing more and more developers joining the bandwagon, more and more systems being built based on containers. And at Docker, we're playing a big role into that. >> Patrick, for a couple years, the chant was Docker, Docker, Docker, and sometimes people say, "Cubernetti's is where the hotness is." Well underneath that, there's containers. And a lot of those containers, Docker's involved there. Maybe you can help us understand the nuance a little bit as the Cubernetti's wave has grown, sure there was the Mezos, Docker Swarm, Cubernetti's war, if you will there, but what does this mean for Docker? What are you seeing from your customers? Give us the update on Docker itself. We'll probably need to get into the Mobi stuff, too, as we get into the interview. >> Sure, definitely. That's a big question, so let's start with the beginning. When enterprises adopt containers, what happens is that usually it starts with the wrappers who are adopting containers with Docker. So they download Docker for their Windows machine, or for their Mac, or on Linux, they start modernizing their applications. What we see is more and more enterprising wrappers, modernizing existing applications by Dockerizing them, and then the next step is that they want to put that into production. For that, you need the whole system. So at Docker, we have two systems. We have Docker C and Docker E, our enterprise version that has role-based controlled sequencing and all that good stuff. There are lots of different components that you need in order to have a production container system, and so Cuberneris, the orchestration engine is one piece of that. At Docker, we have swarm kits. But there are lots of other different components and lots of different layers to that system. So you have the infrastructure layer that you are using to deploy that inside the firewall or in different cloud providers. Many different solutions there. At Docker, we have one that's called infrakit, that we're using in our additions, to deploy it everywhere. Then on top of that, you need some version of Linux. At Docker Con in April, we released a project called Linuxkit, which helps you do that. On top of that, you need a container run-time. Traditionally, it's been Docker. Right now, we re-factored the Docker codebase to extract a core run-time component that's called container G, which we donated to CNCF. Container G is nearing one or better, so it would be one of them pretty soon. Then, on top of that, you need an orchestration engine. Docker E comes with its own orchestration based on swarm, Cuberneris is another orchestration engine that people like. Cuberneris, behind the scenes, is using Docker, and right now we are working very closely with theCUBE rneris community to implement CRI container G. So CRI is the container run-time interface in Cuberneris that lets you plug in different engines to plug container G in the place of Docker in there. >> Stu: There's a lot of pieces in here. We had too many interviews yesterday talking about the Open Container Initiative, or OCI, which really made sure we've got the 1.0 version of that done. What container format, seems like we're in agreement. We're not fighting over that kind of piece anymore. From the Cubernetti's community, I heard loud and clear, they're like, we've got container D. We've kind of got what we want. We're happy it's open-sourced. We're going. We were at Docker Con when you annouced Mobi, which is kind of open-source, and it felt like we were still trying to figure out all those pieces. Give us the update as to Mobi, you're talking at the open source show, you talk a little bit about CE and EE being the productized versions, but part of it is what we used to think of as Docker is now Mobi, and the company Docker versus the project. You kind of teased those apart a little bit, right? >> Yes. Exactly. And actually, that's what I came here at the Open Summit to talk about, to give people an update on the Mobi project. So what we announced back in April was the launch of the Mobi project, which is the end of a two year re-factoring of the Docker codebase into different components. So all these components on the stack that I told you about, we just tease them out from the Docker codebase so that it's a modular set of components that you can assemble together. Mobi is three things. It's an open source project where people can collaborate in container-based systems. It's also a tool that we're using to assemble our components into Mobi Corp, which is the upstream of Docker products. Then it's also a set of lots of components, like container G, Linux, Infrakit, Notary, and all the projects I talked about. One other thing we've started doing since April as well is we started proposing to donate some of these container projects to CNCF. So container G is already part of CNCF now. Recently, this summer, we proposed Infrakit, and they think it's a little bit too early for donation, because they want to see other, different projects in there. Right now we're in the process of donating and proposing Notary, so there's an active discussion in there, and I hope that the vote will happen probably next week or something like that. So Notary is the component that we're using for Docker, and we think that this could be used in lots of different Cloud Native systems, so it really has its place in the CNCF. >> So identity component for the container management, or what specifically is that going to address? >> So Notary is the piece that we're using in Docker Con Contrast to make sure that you can trust the images that you've built. A signed signature should be able to revoke all the signatures, all the kind of features that our customers love in Docker E. >> John: It's kind of like Stu and me on Twitter, he's verified, I'm not. But this is important, because now, this is a stamp of approval, if you will, that the community can look to. >> Yeah, definitely. So it's something that we implement in Docker, and now people building other containment systems who will be able to use it. And so Mobi saw a lot of traction for its different projects, some of them are going to CNCF, some of them are growing by themselves. On the Docker side, we made some progress prioritizing all that with Docker C and Docker E. We had a 1706 launch of Docker E recently, with lots of new role-based axis control, controls for enterprises, who are adopting it essentially to modernize their traditional apps. >> Take us through a kind of personal question. You were just at a board meeting with the CNCF. Did everyone show up or are people calling in? >> I think Alexi Richardson was the only one, maybe two people on the phone. >> John: Was Sam Redjay there? >> Sam was not there either, but Epona was standing for him. So the room was full, and to me it's really an impressive achievement, two years after we helped start the CNCF. The first meetings were 10, 15 people at Google deciding to create this foundation, and today, maybe we're twenty or thirty people around the table. An\d everybody-- >> Even before that Google meeting, we were covering theCUBE Con Cubernettis' movement early on from your event. So I think, out of Docker Con and some of the Linux Foundation events, the early momentum, we were there, Stu. Then it became the CNCF, and they decided, hey, let's get the Cloud Native Foundation. So it's interesting to me, seeing the growth from the beginning. And it's unique to have that opportunity to be in the front lines of an organically developing group. It wasn't really build the table and come, this was a realization. >> It was a realization and also a concerted effort to build something together to show customers where the containment systems were going in terms of architecture-- >> What were the factors beside, I mean Docker was big driver. Notably, you should get the credit for pioneering the space. But what were the drivers for this coalescing, this call to arms, if you will, or this organic formation of CNCF. What were the key drivers in your mind. Obviously, containers is one. What are the other ones? >> Yeah, to me, containers is a big one, because when you are starting to design your system with containers in mind, you need to change lots of things, how you're building them and things like that. And how you are architecting things together. There were lots of questions about how you do the balancing in that kind of system, how do you do monitoring, how do you do tracing. The CNCF was assembled so that all these components have a place where we can show our inter-repairability between them. So Docker is part of that, Mezos is part of that, as well as Cuberneris. There's a big inter-repairability work that's happening in there. We had a report in the board meeting today about the new CI Initiative that tests different CNCF projects together. >> John: What CI? >> Sorry, continuous integration. >> John: Got it, yeah. >> So there's the continuous integration-- >> John: Not conversion infrastructure. >> Oh, you're right, yeah. >> We always get acronym-ed up. But Chris Anazik was talking yesterday about the graduation path, still waiting to see something graduate from the process. What's going to graduate first? Any bets, what's the betting, what betting is going on? Do you guys actually make bets? Is there a fantasy drafting going on? >> I don't think that really matters, what matters is really adoption of the components. >> Okay, so what's happening on the graduation scale? What's coming out of the woodworks? What's next? What's going to graduate first? >> So one thing I'm curious about is whether Container G will graduate, because it's kind of mature now, it's reaching 1-0 with the CRI and soon integration in Docker, it may be a good candidate for graduation. For the others, I don't know which ones would be first into the graduation process. >> Well, we know it's a high bar, for sure. >> Patrick, the stuff that's getting mature. What about some of the roadmap there? From Docker and CNCF, something like serverless containers, first generation, are going to be important. We had too many interviews this week talking about, today, many of the containers we'll see in the future where serverless and open Faz and things like that go. So how does that all fit in? Can you give us a Docker and a CNCF view on that? >> Let's talk about the CNCF view first. CNCF is working on lots of different areas where there needs to be more definition about what Cloud Native means for storage, for example, with the CSI Initiative, container storage interface, CNI, container networking interface, and then there's the working group for CI, which is about integrating all these projects together, but the working group I'm most interested in is the serverless one. So we have a Docker rep at the serverless working group, and there we're trying to define what a portable, serverless stack looks like. And at Docker, we're naturally interested in this -- >> Of course, Serverless is a beautiful thing. >> Most of these projects are running on top of Docker, so open Faz for people-- >> I got to ask you, Patrick, because we love serverless, I have a love/hate relationship with the word serverless because technically it's a beautiful thing, but there's servers involved. I'm an old-school, so I kind of look at it differently. The younger generation, they want infrastructure as code. This is a clear obvious thing. It was once a dream, but now it's become a reality. What's your position on that? Where is it on the progress bar? How close are we to serverless? >> I'd say there's an initial adoption of serverless on one of the few stacks that exist out there today. So you have the hosted services, the Faz services, from Amazon, Microsoft, and Google, where I'm more interested, and I think customers are kind of looking for that, is a portable way of doing that. For example, in studying that on top of Docker platforms, so that's what projects like Open Faz is doing. Right now, I think we're really in the stage of discussions with CNCF of what a portable service layer would look like so that you could focus on your code, but be able to deploy on Prim, on top of Docker, or in different cloud providers. So that portability aspect to me is very important there. And I think it's important for customers as well. To me, also, I'm an old timer as well, I used to pitch a platform as a service at the beginning of it, Google App Engine, many years ago. To me, it's kind of a feeling of deja vu. We're kind of re-inventing that, but with containers and in a much more portable way. >> The beautiful thing about being an old-timer is we get to look back and, not so much to the young kids, get off my lawn, we had to walk to school with bare feet in the snow, build our own libraries. I was just talking to Eilene, she's like, "Oh, my low-level class was C and my high-level class was Python." I'm like, "Our low-level class was machine code "and high-level wasn't even C yet." >> Yesterday, at the party, I was discussing with one of the IBM engineers, who's working on Linux and containers on mainframe, and we were talking about GCL, and that's the type of feeling that we got. Like we're getting higher up in the stack, and I think for modern developers, it really helped them-- >> It's a beautiful thing right now. Just think about the young guns that are coming up. This is a beautiful library of options now. 90% of the code is leverage-able. That's like unbelievable. So it really allows the creativity of the developer to be a lot more about structural engineering code-base rather than just being very creative on the 10-20% of real intellectual property that they can bring to the table. >> I would add something, it's really about creating value, as opposed to building infrastructure. When we're getting up the stack, and serverless is an example of that, it's really about creating value for enterprises, and that's what these wrappers are about. >> When you start dreaming in code, you know you're doing good. Patrick, thanks so much for coming on theCUBE, and congratulations on all the success with CNCF, and certainty Docker. You guys continue to impress and do a great job. I know there's some changes over there we're looking for, some of the cool stuff graduating out of CNCF, more Docker container goodness from you guys. Thanks for coming on theCUBE. We appreciate it. I'm John Furrier, we're live in Los Angeles, California, for the Open Source Summit North America coverage with theCUBE. I'm John Furrier, Stu Miniman back with more after this short break.

(gentle music) >> Announcer: Live, from Los Angeles, it's theCUBE, covering Open Source Summit, North America, 2017, brought to you by the Linux Foundation and Red Hat. >> Okay welcome back, and we're live here in Los Angeles, this is theCUBE's exclusive coverage of the Linux Foundation's Open Source Summit North America. I'm John Furrier, your host with my co-host Stu Miniman. Our next guest is Chris Aniszczyk, who's the COO, Chief Operating Officer of the CNCF, the Cloud Native Compute Foundation, formerly Cube-Con, Cloud Native Foundation, all rolled into the most popular Linux Foundation project right now, very fashionable, cloud native, running on native clouds, Chris welcome back to theCUBE, good to see you. >> Awesome, it's been a while, great to be back. >> So you are the Chief Operating Officer of the hottest project, to me at least, in the Foundation. Not the most important, because there's a lot of really important, everything's important, you don't pick a favorite child, but, if one's trending, the CNCF is certainly trending, it's got the most sponsors, it's got the most participants, there's so much action going on, there's so much change and opportunity, around Kubernetes, around containers, around writing cloud-native applications. You've guys have really put together a nice foundation around that, nice group, congratulations. >> Thank you. >> Take a step back and explain to us, what the hell is the CNCF? We know what it is, we were there present at creation, but it's super-important, it's growing in relevance every day. Take a minute to explain. >> So I mean, you know, CNCF is all about providing a neutral home for cloud-native technology, and it's been about almost two years since our first board meeting and the idea was, there's a certain set of technology out there that are essentially micro-service-based, that live in containers that are centrally orchestrated by some process, right, that's essentially what we mean when we say cloud-native, right, and CNCF was seeded with Kubernetes as its first project, and as we've seen over the last couple of years, Kubernetes has grown quite well, they have a large community, diverse contributor base, and have done kind of extremely well. They're one of actually the fastest, highest velocity open source projects out there, maybe only, compared to the kernel is maybe a little bit faster but it's just great to kind of see it growing. >> Why is it so hot right now? What's the catalyst? >> So I think if we kind of step back and we look at the trends in industry, right, more and more companies are becoming software companies, you know, folks like John Deere, building IoT platforms. You need some type of infrastructure to run this stuff, and especially at scale. You know, imagine sensors in every tractor, farm or in every vehicle, you're going to need serious infrastructure and cloud native really is a way to scale those type of infrastructure needs and so this is kind of I think why you're seeing a lot of interest being piqued in CNCF-related technology. >> A lot of prototypes too. >> Chris, see you know, it's interesting, I look back you know, a year or two ago, and it was like, oh, it was like the orchestration wars, it was Swarm versus Mesos, and now I look at it in the last year it's like, wait, Mesos fully embracing it, MesosCon they're going to be talking about how Mesos is the best place to you know, Kubernetes on DCOS, containerd now part of the container wars, so the container wars, we're going to talk about OCI, you know, Amazon, Microsoft, of course Google, out there at the beginning. Is there anybody that's not on board that Kubernetes... >> I mean we really have the top five cloud providers in the world, depending on what metrics you look at, part of CNCF, you know there's some others out there that still aren't fully part of the family. Hopefully if you stay tuned over the next week or so you may hear some announcements coming from CNCF of other large cloudy-type companies joining the family. >> Every week there's a new platinum sponsor (Chris laughs) and you guys are getting a check every week it seems. >> To me it's great to see companies stepping up to the play and actually sustaining open source foundations that are critical to the actual business, and I think that it's great to see this involvement. So to me I'm personally thrilled, 'cause otherwise we'd be in a situation where if the top five cloud providers in the world weren't part of CNCF, maybe they'd be trying to do their own initiative, so it's great that we have these companies at the table, and all trying to build, you know, find their own pathway to cloud-native. >> You guys are hyper-growth right now, and you're new too, you're still kind of you know, >> Chris: Less than two years old! >> I mean it's amazing. So I want to put a little Jim Zemlin test to you, (Chris laughs) which is, in his keynote today he talked about, this is the big kind of event for the whole community of open source to come together, and again, you're talking 64 million libraries out there now. He projected by 2026, 400 million, it literally is a hockey stick growth, so you got growth there, so he talked about four things, my summary. Project health, so healthiness, sustainability, secure code, training, new members. What's your strategy re those four things? Keeping the CNCF healthy, you don't eat too much and choke on all of that growth... >> Yeah, so in terms of projects, we have a very unique governance structure in place when we designed CNCF. So we kind of have this independent technical operating committee, we kind of jokingly refer to them as a technical supreme court, but they are made up of people from, kind of luminaries in the container cloud-native space, they're from competing companies too, but they try to really wear an independent hat and make sure that we're, projects that we're accepting are high quality, are a good fit for the foundation, and so it's actually fairly hard to get a project in CNCF, 'cause it really requires the blessing of this TOC. So, even though we have 10 projects now in about two years, I think that's about a project every two months, which is an okay pace. The other unique thing that we're doing is we have different levels of projects, we have inception, incubation and graduation. Right now, we have no graduated projects in CNCF, believe it or not, Kubernetes has not graduated yet because they're still finalizing their governance for the project and they're almost there. Once they do that, they'll most likely graduate. >> They'll walk cap and gown all nine yards, eh? >> Exactly, it'll be great. December we'll have the cap and gown ceremony. But the other unique thing is we're not, we do annual kind of reviews for some of our projects, certain levels will be annually reviewed, and if they're not longer healthy or a good fit, we're okay archiving them, or telling, you know, telling them you know, maybe you're not a good fit anymore for the foundation, or you know. And so I think you have to have a process in place where sometimes you do have to move things to the attic. >> Do you have a high bar on the projects >> The initial bar is extremely, extremely high, and I think over time, we may see some projects that get recycled or moved to the attic, or maybe they maybe merged together, we'll see, so we're thinking about this already, so... >> John: Okay, security? >> Security, so we, all projects in CNCF that graduate have to partake in the core infrastructures best practices badging program, so if the CII has this great effort that is basically helping to ensure projects meet a minimal level of best practices that make their projects secure. You know, it doesn't give you like full-blown guarantee, but these are good practices. >> So you were leveraging pre-existing work, classic, open-source ethos. >> Exactly, and they have like a set of domain experts completely focused on security building out these practices and you'll notice Kubernetes recently merged in the CII Best Practices badge, so if you go to the readme, you'll actually see it, and you'll click through and you'll see all the things that they've had to sign off and check on that they participate in, and so all of our projects are kind of going >> Training. >> Training, yeah, we just recently announced couple things. One is we have a >> Looking good so far, you get an A plus. >> Yeah, so as of today we've launched the Certified Kubernetes Administrator Program or CKA for short. So we have folks that are getting trained on, and are having official stamps that they are certified Kubernetes administrators, and to me that's huge, given like how hot the space is, having some stamp of approval that they are really certified in the space is huge. So we also offer free training through edX, so we launched some training courses earlier, and to be honest, if you look at our member companies, lots of great folks out there providing training material. >> So one of the keynotes that Christine Corbett Moran was talking about in her keynote was, more inclusion so there's no ruling class. Now I know you really have a ruling class going on with your high bar, I get that. How are you getting new members in, what's the strategy, who are the new members, how are you going to manage the perception possibly that a few people control the swing votes at potentially big projects? >> So here what's interesting is, people joining CNCF, like I mentioned before, we have a TOC, right? So there's kind of this separation of, I don't say church and state, but like, so the governing board, people who pay to join CNCF, they pay to sustain our open source projects, and so essentially they help with, they pay for marketing, staff, events and so on. They actually don't have technical influence over the projects. You don't have to be a member to have technical influence over our projects. People join CNCF because they want to have a say in the overall budget of how marketing, events and stuff, and just overall support the organization. But on the technical side, there's this kind of firewall, there's an independent TOC, they make the technical decisions. You can't really pay to join that at all, you have to actually be heavily participating in that community. >> John: How does someone get in that group? Is there a code? >> They have to just be like a luminary, we have a kind of election process that happens every two or three years, depending on how things are structured, and it's independently elected by the CNCF member community, essentially, is the simplest way I can explain it. >> The other announcement you talked about, kind of the individual certification, but the KCSP sort of programs >> Correct, exactly. >> Maybe you can tell us a little bit about that. >> Yes, so we had a program set up so it's Kubernetes Certified Service Provider, KCSP, that basically >> rolls right off the tongue >> I know, right, exactly. Herbal space program, whatever, I think of sometimes video games when we say it, but essentially, the program was put in place that a lot of end users out there in companies that are new to cloud native, and they're new to Kubernetes, essentially want to find a trusted set of partners that they can rely on, services and other things, so we created KCSP as a way to vet a certain set of companies that have at least a minimum of three people that have passed the Kubernetes certification exam that I talked about, and are essentially participating upstream in some way actively in the Kubernetes community. So we got a couple handfuls of companies that have launched, which is great, and so now, given that we're growing so fast, companies out there that are early end users that are exploring the space now have a trusted set of companies that go look at, and we're hoping to grow that program over time too. So this is just phase one. >> All right, so Chris, the other thing that I want to make sure we talk about, the Open Container Initiative, so I think it was originally OCP, which of course is, >> Open Container Project which when OCP was announced, it was like, okay, the cold war of Docker versus CoreOS versus everybody else, (Chris laughs) trying to figure out what that container format was, we all shook hands, I took a nice selfie with Ben who was CEO at the time, and everybody. So 1.0 is out. So, container's fully mature, ready to be rolled out right? But what does it mean? >> So I mean it's funny 'cause I basically joined the Linux Foundation, to help both start CNCF and OCI around the same time, right, and OCI was very narrowly scoped to only care about a small set of container-specific issues. One around how do you actually really run containers, start, stop, all that kind of life cycle bit, and how are containers laid out on disk, we call that the image specification. So you have the runtime spec and the image spec, and those are just very limited core pieces, like that OCI was not opinionated on networking or storage or any of, those are all left to other initiatives. And so after almost two years, we shipped 1.0, we got basically all the major container players to agree that this is 1.0 and we're going to build off from this, and so if you look at Docker with it's containerd project, or you know, fully adopting OCI, the Mesos community is, Cloud Foundry, even AWS announced their container register's supporting OCI, so we got the 1.0 out there, now we're going to see an abundance of people building tools and other things. I think you'll see more end users out there exploring containers. I've talked to a lot of companies that I can't necessarily name, but there's a lot of folks out there that may not dive into container technology until there is actually a mature standard and they feel like this technology is just not going to go away or they're going to get locked into some specific platforms. So, with 1.0 out the door, you'll see over the next six to 12 months, more tools being built. We're actually working to roll out a certification program so you get that nice little, you know, hey, this product is OCI-certified and supports the spec, so you'll see that happen over the next... >> Okay, so you've got the runtime spec and the image format spec, >> Yep, those are the two big ones. >> All 1.0, we're ready to roll, what's the roadmap >> Yeah, what's next. So there are early discussions about what other mature areas are out there kind of in container land right now. There are some discussions around distribution, so having a standard API to basically fetch and push container images out there. If you look at it, each container registry has basically a different set of APIs, and wouldn't it be nice if we could all kind of easily work together and have maybe one set, a way to kind of distribute these things. So there are some early discussions around potentially building out a distribution specification, but that's something that the technical community has to decide within OCI to do, and so over the next couple of months we're having some meetings, we're doing a bigger meeting at DockerCon Europe coming up in October to basically try to figure out what's really next. So I think after we shipped 1.0 a lot of people took a little bit of a breather, a break, and say like, congratulate themselves, take some vacation over the summer, and now we're going to get back into the full swing of things over the next couple of months. >> Say, what's the big conversation here, obviously at your event in Austin, it's got a plug for, theCUBE will be live covering it as well. >> I know, I'm excited. >> What's the uptake, what's the conversation in the hallways, any meetings, give us some >> Yeah, so we're doing >> I know there's some big announcement coming on Wednesday, there's some stuff happening >> Yeah, so, you know, first coming Wednesday, so like I mentioned, we have 10 projects right now in CNCF. We have two projects currently out for vote. So one of them is Envoy. There's a company you've probably heard of, Lyft, ride-sharing company, but Envoy essentially is their fancy service mesh that powers the Lyft platform, and many other companies out there are actually taking advantage of Envoy. Google's playing around with it, integrating into the Istio project, which is pretty powerful, but Envoy is currently, it was invited by the TOC for a formal vote, the voting period started last week, so we're collecting votes from the nine TOC members, and once that voting period is hopefully we can announce whether the project was accepted or not. The other project in the pipeline is a project called Jaeger, which is from Uber, you know, nice to have Uber >> John: Jaegermeister. >> Yeah, Jaegermeister, a bit like it. It's nice to have a product from Uber, another product from Lyft, kind of it's nice to see >> And if you have too much Jaeger, you have to take the Lyft to get home, right? >> Exactly, correct. So you know, just like Envoy, Jaeger is, you know, was formally invited by the TOC, it's out for vote, and hopefully we'll count the votes soon and figure out if it gets accepted or not. So Jaeger is focused on distributed tracing, so one problem in micro-services land is once you kind of like refactor your application to kind of be micro-services-based, actually tracing and figuring out what happens when things go wrong is hard, and you need a really good set of distributed tracing tools, 'cause otherwise it's like the worst murder mystery, you have like no idea what's happened, so having solid distributed tracing solution like Jaeger is great, 'cause in CNCF we're going to have a project called OpenTracing, but that's just kind of like the spec of how you do things, there's no full-blown client-server distributed >> For instance you usually need it for manageability >> Exactly, and that's what Jaeger provides, and I'm excited to kind of have these two projects under consideration in CNCF. >> Is manageability the hottest thing going on right now in terms of conversations? (Chris sighs) Or is it more stability and getting projects graduating? >> Yeah, so like our big focus is like, we want to see projects graduate, kind of meet the minimum bar that the TOC set up for graduated projects. In terms of other hot areas that are under discussion in CNCF are storage, so for example we have a storage working group that's been working hard to kind of bring in all the vendors and different storage folks together, and there's some early work called the container storage interface, we call it CSI for short, and so you know there's another project at CNCF called CNI, which basically tried to build a standard around how networking is done in container land. CSI is doing the same thing because, you know, it's no fun rewriting your storage drivers for all the different orchestration systems out there, and so why not get together and build out a standard that is used by Kubernetes, by Mesos, by Cloud Foundry, by Docker, and just have it so they all work across these things. So that's what's happening, and it's still early days, but there's a lot of excitement in that. >> Okay, the event in Austin, what can people expect? Cube-Con. >> You're literally going to have the biggest gathering of Kubernetes and cloud-native talent. It's actually going to be one of our biggest events probably for the Linux Foundation at all. We're probably going to get 3-4,000 people minimum out there, and I'm stoked, we're going to have some... Schedule's not fully announced yet. I do secretly know some of the keynotes potentially, but just wait for that announcement, I promise you it's going to be great. >> And one question I get, just I thought I'd bring it up since you're here in the hot seat, lot of people coming in with, supporting you guys on the governing side, not even cyclical. How are you going to service them, how are you going to scale up, do you have confidence that you have the ability to execute against those sponsorships, support the members, what's your plan, can you share some insights, clarify that? >> You know, pressure makes diamonds, right? We have a lot of people at the right table, and we are doing some hiring, so we have a couple spots open for developer advocacy, technical writing, you know additive things that help our project overall. We're also trying to hire a head of marketing. So like, we are in the process of expanding the organization. >> Do you feel comfortable... >> I feel comfortable, like things are growing, things are moving at a fast clip, but we're doing the best we can to hire and don't be surprised if you hear some announcements soon about some fun hires. >> Well it's been great for us covering, we've been present and creating, if you will, this movement, which has been kind of cool, because it kind of a confluence of a couple of things coming together. >> Chris: Yeah, absolutely. >> It's just been really fun to watch, just the momentum from the cloud really early days, 2009 timeframe to now, it's been a real nice ride and congratulations to the entire community. >> Thank you, like for me it's just exciting to have all these companies sitting together at the same table, having Amazon join, and the other top fighters, all basically committing to saying, we are in the cloud-native, we may have different ways of getting there, but we're all committed working together at some level. So I'm stoked. >> Great momentum, and you guys doing some great work, congratulations. >> Thank you very much. >> And you know it's working when I get focused, hey can you, so and so, I'm like, oh yeah, no problem, oh wow, they're big time now, you guys are big time. Congratulations. >> Thank you, it's in phase one now, like we have the right people at the table >> Don't screw it up! (John and Chris laugh) As they say. It's on yours. Chris Aniszczyk, who's the COO of the Cloud Native Compute Foundation, the hottest area of Linux Foundation right now, a lot of action on cloud, cloud-native developers where DevOps is meeting, lot of progress in application development. Still, they're really only two years old, get involved, more inclusion the better. It's theCUBE, Cube coverage of CNCF. We'll be in Austin in December. >> Chris: Yep, six to eight. >> December 6 to 8, we'll be there live. More live coverage coming back in Los Angeles here for the Open Source Summit North America after this short break.

(upbeat music) >> Announcer: Live from San Francisco, it's theCUBE, covering DevNet Create 2017. Brought to you by Cisco. >> Hello, everyone, and welcome back to our live coverage from theCUBE exclusive, two days with Cisco's inaugural DevNet Create event. I'm John Furrier, with my co-host, Peter Burris, who's the general manager of Wikibon.com, and head of research for SiliconANGLE Media. We're talking with Susie Wee, who is the vice president and CTO of Cisco's DevNet, the creator of DevNet, the developer program that was started as grassroots, now a full-blown Cisco developer program. Now starting another foray into the cloud-native open-source community with this new event, DevNet Create. Welcome to theCUBE, thanks for joining us. >> Thank you, John. >> Thanks for having us. We love going to the inaugural events because they're always the first, and you know, being bloggers, and media, you got to be first. First news, first comments. >> Susie: Always first. >> Always first, and we're the only media here, so thank you. >> Susie: Thank you. >> So tell us about the event (Susie chuckles). You're the host and the creator, with your team. >> Susie: Yes. >> How did this come together, why DevNet Create? You have DevNet, this event is going extremely well, tell us. >> Awesome, so, yeah, so we have DevNet, we've had DevNet for about three years. It was actually exactly three years ago that we had our first DevNet Zone, a developer conference at Cisco Live, three years ago. And there, we felt like we pretty squarely hit... We've had successes there, we've had a pretty strong handle on our infrastructure audience, but what we see is that there's this huge transition, transformation going on in the industry, with IoT and cloud, that changes the definition of how applications meet infrastructure. And so this whole thing with, you know, applications, what is an application? What is the infrastructure? The infrastructure is now programmable, how can apps interact? It opens up a whole new world, and so what we did was we created DevNet Create as a standalone developer conference focused on IoT and cloud to focus on that transformation. >> And a lot of industry trends kind of going on, and moves you're making, it's the company, or you, Cisco is making, AppDynamics, big acquisition, kind of speaks to that, but also, there's always a natural progression for Cisco to have moving up the stack with software, but IoT gives you guys a unique opportunity with the network concept. So, making it network programmable, infrastructure as code, as some say in the DevOps world, is the ethos. >> Absolutely. >> How do you guys see yourselves engaging with the community, and what are some of the plans, and what's some of the feedback you're getting here at the event? >> So what we've done here at the event is that, you know, as you've seen from the channel is that, our content is 90% from the community, maybe 10% from Cisco, 90% from the community, because we believe it is all about the ecosystem. It's about how applications meet the infrastructure, it's the systems people are building together. And there's a lot of movement in developing these technologies. We don't know the final form of how an IoT app... Like, who's going to build the app, who's going to build the users, who's going to run the service, who's going to run the infrastructure? It's all still evolving, and we think that the community needs to come together to solve this to make the most of the opportunity. And so that's what, really, this is all about. And then, we think it actually involves learning the languages, making sure that the app folks know the language of the infrastructure folks. They don't have to become experts in it, but just knowing the language. Understand what part's programmable, what part's not, what benefit can you derive from the infrastructure. And then, by really having knowledge of what you can get across, and creating a forum for people to get together to have this conversation, we can make those breakthroughs. >> So just a clarification, you said that 90% of the sessions are non-Cisco, or from the community, and only 10% from Cisco? >> Susie: That's right. >> Is that by design? >> That is absolutely by design. So, when we have the DevNet Zone at Cisco Live, that's all about all of Cisco's products, platforms, APIs, bringing in the community to come and learn about those, but DevNet Create was really, squarely for IoT and app developers, IoT app developers, cloud developers, people working on DevOps, to look at that intersection. So we didn't go into all the gory details of networking, like we very much like to do, but we were really trying to focus on, "What's the value to application developers, "and what are the opportunities?" >> Well, it's interesting because, Susie, we're in the midst, as you said, of a pretty significant transformation, and there's a lot of turbulence, not only in business and how business conceives of digital technology, and the role it's going to play, the developer world, cloud-this, cloud-that, different suppliers, but one of the anchor points is the network, even though the network itself is changing, >> It is. >> in the midst of a transformation, but it's a step function. So, you go from, on the wireless, go outside, 1G to 3G, to 5G, et cetera, that kind of thing, but how is the developer going to inform that next step function in the network, the next big transformation in the network, and to what degree is this kind of a session going to really catalyze that kind of a change? >> Absolutely. So, what happens is, you're right, it's something that we all know, all app developers know, and actually, every person in the world knows, the network is important. The network provides connectivity, the network is what provides Internet, data, and everything there. That's critical to apps, but the thing that's been heard about it is it's not programmable. Like, you kind of get that thing configured, it's working now, you leave it. Don't touch it. >> It's still wires. In the minds of a lot of people, (Susie laughs) it's still wires, right? >> It is, it's wires, or even if it's wireless, once you can get it configured, you leave it. You're not playing with it again, it's too, kind of, dangerous or fragile to change it. >> Because of the sensitivity to operational... >> Because of the sensitivity to operations. The big change that's happening is the network is becoming programmable. The network has APIs, and then, we have things like automation and controller-based networking coming into play, so you don't actually configure it by going one network device at a time, you feed these into a controller, and then, now you're actually doing network-wide commands. That takes out the human error, it actually makes it easy to configure and reconfigure. And when you have that ability to provision resources, to kind of reset configurations, when you can do that quickly through APIs, you suddenly have a tool that you never had before. So let me give you an example. So let's say that you're in a building, you have your badging systems, your automated elevators, you have your surveillance cameras, you want to put out a new security system with surveillance cameras. You don't want to put that on the same network segment as your vending machines. You have a different level of security required. Could put in a work order to say... >> Unless you're really worried about who's stealing from the vending machines. (all laugh) >> So what you can do, now that it's programmable, is use infrastructure as code, is basically say, "Boom, give me a new network segment, "let me drop these new devices onto it, "let the programmable network automatically create "a separate network segment that has "all of these devices together." Then you can start to use group-based policy to now set, you know, the rules that you want, for how those cameras are accessed, who they're accessible by, what kind of data can come in and out of it. You can actually do that with infrastructure as code. That was not a knob that app developers had before. So they don't need to become networking experts, but now they have these knobs that they can use to give you that next level of security, to give you that next level of programmability, and to do it at the speed that an app developer needs. >> So I was talking to Steve Post-y earlier this morning, and he's from Redhead, he's a lead developer, he's not a network guy, he's self-proclaimed, "Hey, I'm not a networking person, I care about apps," and he's a developer, and he brought up something interesting I want to get your thoughts on. I think you're onto something really big with your vision, which is why we're so pumped about it, and he brought up an example of ecosystem's edges, and margins of the edge of these, that when they come together, creates innovation opportunities. And he used the example of data science meets cloud. And what he was using in particular was the example of most data people in the old days were data jocks, they did data, they did things, and they weren't really computer scientists, but as those two communities came together, the computer scientist saying, "Hey, I don't know about data," and the data guy's like, "Hey, you know about algorithms," "I know about algorithms," so innovation happened when that came together. What you're doing here, if I got this right, is you're saying, "Hey, DevNet's doing great," from a Cisco perspective, "but now this whole new creative innovation world "in the cloud is happening in real time. "Bring 'em together, "so best of Cisco knowledge to the guys who don't want to be (chuckles) "experts in that can share information." Is that kind of where this is going? >> Yeah, that's exactly where it's going, and same example, earlier in my career, I was working on sending video over networks, and then you had the networking people doing networking, you had the video people doing video compression, but then video networking, or streaming media, kind of, oh, you can put, you know, your knowledge of the compression and the network all together, so that kind of emerged as a field. The same thing, so, so far, the applications, and the infrastructure, and IT departments have been completely separate. You would just do the best you can, it was the job of IT to provide it, but now, suddenly there's an opportunity to bring these together. And it's, again, it's because the infrastructure's becoming programmable, and now it has knobs and can work quickly. So, yes, this is kind of new ground. And things could continue the way they are, right? And it's okay, we're getting by, but you just won't be realizing the potential of the real kind of... >> Well, open-source has clearly demonstrated that the collective intelligence of communities can really move fast, and share, and it's now tier one, so you're seeing companies go public, MuleSoft, Cloudera, and the list goes on and on. So now you have the dynamic of open-source, so I got to ask you the question, as you go out with DevNet Create, as this creation, the builders that are out there building apps are going to have programmable networks, how do you see this next leg of the journey? Because you have the foray now with DevNet Create, looks good, really well done, what's next? >> What's next is going on and making the real instances that show the application and infrastructure synergy. So let me just give you a really simple example of something that we're doing, which is that Apple and Cisco have had a partnership, and this partnership is coming together in that we have iOS developers who are writing mobile apps. So you have your mobile apps people are writing, we have iOS 10, your app developers are writing these apps. But everybody knows you run into a situation where your app gets congested on the network. Let's say that we're here in Westfield Mall, and they want to put out an AR/VR app, and you want that traffic to work, right? 'Cause if the mall wants to offer an AR/VR service, it takes a lot of bandwidth to get that data through, but through this partnership, what we have is an ability we have to use an iOS 10 SDK to, basically, business optimize your app so that it can run well on a Cisco infrastructure. So basically, it's just saying, "Hey, this is important, "put it in the highest QoS (John laughs) level setting, "and make your AR/VR work." So it's just having these real instances where these work together. >> I mean, I used to be a plumber back in my day when I used to work at HP, and I know how hard it is, and so I'm going to bring this up, because networks used to be stable and fragile/brittle, and then that would determine what you could do on top of it. But there are things like DNS, we hear about DNS, we hear about configuration management, setting ports, and doing this, to your point, I want dynamic provisioning or policy at any given moment, yet the network's got to be ready to do that. >> You don't want to submit a work order for that. (laughs) >> You don't want to have to say, "Hey, can you provision port, whatever, "I need to send a bunch of bandwidth." This is what we're talking about when we say programmable infrastructure, just letting the apps interface with network APIs, right? >> Absolutely, and I think that, you heard earlier, that with CNCF, the Cloud Native Computing Foundation, just announced CNI, so that what they're doing is now offering an ability to take your kind of container orchestration and take into consideration what's going on in the network, right? So if this link is more congested than that, then make sure that you're doing your orchestration in the right ways, that the network is informing the cloud layer, that the cloud platform's informing the network, so that's going to be huge. >> But do you think, I'm curious, Susie, do you think that we're going to see a time when we start bringing conventions at layer 7 in the network, so we start to parse layer 7 down a little bit, so developers can think in terms of some of those higher-level services that previously have been presentation? Are we likely to see that kind of a thing? As the pain of the network starts to go away, and an explicit knowledge of layer 1-6 become a lot less important, are we going to see a natural expansion at layer 7, and think about distributed data, distributed applications, distributed services, more coherence to how that happens on an industry-wide basis? What do you think? >> Yeah, so let's see, I don't know if I have a view on which layers go away, or which layers compress... >> But the knowledge, the focal point of those? >> But the knowledge, absolutely. So it comes into play, and what happens is, like, what is the infrastructure? In the Internet of things, things are a part of your infrastructure. That's just different. As you're going to microservices, applications aren't applications, they're being written as microservices, and then once you put those microservices in containers, they can move around. So you actually have a pretty different paradigm for thinking about the architecture of applications, of how they're orchestrated, what resources they sit on, and how you provision, so you get a very new paradigm for that. And then the key is... >> But they're inherently networked? >> That's right, that's right. It's all about connectivity, it's all about, you know, they don't do anything without the network. And we're pushing the boundaries of the network. >> These aren't function calls over memory like we used to think about things, these things are inherently networked. We know we have network SOAs, and service levels, and whatnot... >> Susie: There is. >> It sounds like we have... I was wondering, here, at this conference, are developers starting to talk about, "Geez, I would like to look at Kubernetes "as a lower-level feature in layer 7," >> Susie: They are. (laughs) >> "where there's a consistent approach to thinking about "how that orchestration layer is going to work, "and how containers work above that, "because I don't have to worry about session anymore, I don't have to worry about transmission." >> Susie: Absolutely. >> That goes away, so give me a little bit more visibility into some of that higher-level stuff, where, really, the connectivity issues are becoming more obvious. >> Absolutely, and an interesting example is that, you know, we actually talked about AppDynamics in the keynote, and so, with AppDynamics, what kind of information can you get from these bits of code that are running in different places? And it comes into where we have the Royal Bank of Scotland, who's saying, "What's my busiest bank branch "where people are doing mobile banking in the country?" And they're like, "Well, how do I answer that question?" And then you see that, oh, someone has their mobile phone, they take an app, then you actually break it down to how is that request, that API, how is that being, kind of, operated throughout your network. And when you take a look, you say, "Okay, well, this called this "piece of code that's running here. "This piece of code used this API to talk to this other service, to talk to this other," you can map that out, get back the calls of, "Hey, this is how many times this API has been called, "this is how many times this service has been called, "this is the ones that are talking to who," then they came up with the answer, saying that our busiest bank branch is the 9 a.m. Paddington Train Station. >> And that's a great example, because now you gain visibility >> Exactly >> into where the dependencies are, which even if you don't explicitly render it that way, starts to build a picture of what the layers of function might look like based on the dependencies and the sharing of the underlying services. >> That's right, and that's where you're saying, like, "What? The infrastructure just gave me business value (John laughs) "in a very direct way. "How did that happen?" >> John: That's a huge opportunity for Cisco. >> So it's a big... >> Well, let's get in the studio and let's break down the Kubernetes and the containers, 'cause Docker's here, a lot of other folks are here. We've had, also, Abby Kearns, the executive director of Cloud Foundry. We've had the executive director from the Cloud Native Compute Foundation, Dan was here, a lot of folks here in the industry kind of validating >> Yeah, Craig was here. >> your support. Sun used to have an expression, the network is the computer, but now, maybe Chuck Robbins should go for network is the app, or the app is the network, (Susie laughs) I mean, that's what's happening here. The interplay between the two is happening big time. >> It is happening here, yeah. Just every element, every piece of code, what we saw is that this year, developers will write 111 billion lines of code. You think about that, every piece of... >> Peter: That we know about. (chuckles) >> That we know about, there's probably more. (chuckles) and all of that, you're right, these are broken up into pieces that are inherently networked, right? They have data, it's all about data and information that they're sharing to give interesting experiences. So this is absolutely a new paradigm. >> Well, congratulations on your success. What a great journey, I know it's been a short time, but I noticed after our in-studio interview, when you came in to share with us, the show, as a preview, Chuck Robbins retweeted one of the tweets. >> Susie: He did. >> And so I got to ask you, internally at Cisco, I know you put this together kind of as a entrepreneurial inside the company, and had support for that, what is the conversation you have with Chuck and the executive team about this effort? Because they got to see a clear line of sight that the value of the network is creating business value. What are some of the internal conversations, can you give us a little bit of color without giving away all the trade secrets? >> Yeah, well, internally, we're getting huge support. Chuck Robbins checks in on this, he actually has been checking in saying, "How's it going?" Rowan Trollope sending, "Hey, how's it going? "I heard it's going great." >> Did he text you today? >> Chuck did a couple days ago. >> John: Okay. (chuckles) >> And then Rowan, today, so, yeah, so we have a lot of conversation. >> Rowan's a CUBE alumni, Chuck's got to get on theCUBE, (Susie laughs) Rowan's been on before. >> Yeah, so they're all kind of checking in on it. We have the IoT World Forum going on in parallel, in London, so, otherwise, they would be here as well. But they understand... >> John: There's a general excitement? This is not a rogue event? >> There's huge excitement. >> This is not, like, a rogue event? >> It's not, it's not, and what happens is... They also understand that we're talking about bringing in the ecosystem. It's not just a Cisco conversation, it is a community... >> Yeah, you're doing it right, you're not trying to take over the sandbox. You're coming in with respect and actually putting out content, and learning. >> Putting out content, and really, it's all about letting people interact and create this new area. It's breaking new ground, it's facilitating a conversation. I mean, where apps meet infrastructure, it's controversial as well. Some people should say, "They should never meet. "Why would they ever meet?" (Susie and John laugh) >> So, we do a lot of shows, I was telling Peter that, you know, we were at the first Hadoop Summit, second Hadoop World, with Cloudera, when they were a small startup, Docker's first event, CubeCon's first event, we do a lot of firsts, and I got to tell you, the energy here feels a lot like those events, where it's just so obvious that (chuckles) "Okay, finally, programmable infrastructure." >> Well, I'll be honest, I'm relieved, because, you know, we were taking a bet. So, you know, when I was bouncing this idea off of you, we were talking about it, it was a risk. So the question is, will it appeal to the app developers, will it appeal to the cloud developers, will it appeal overall? And I'm very relieved and happy to see that the vibe is very positive. >> Very positive. >> So people are very receptive to these ideas. >> Well, you know community, give more than you take has always been a great philosophy. >> I'm always a little paranoid and (John laughs) nervous but I'm very pleased, 'cause people seem to be really happy. There's a lot of action. >> There are a lot of PCs with Docker stickers on them here. (John laughs) >> There are. (laughs) There are, yes, yes. We have the true cloud, IoT, we have the hardcore developers here, and they seem to be very engaged and really embracing... >> Well, we've always been covering DevOps, again, from the beginning, and cloud-native is, to me, it's just a semantic word for DevOps. It's happening, it's going mainstream, and great to see Cisco, and congratulations on all your work, and thanks for including theCUBE in your inaugural event. >> Susie: Thank you. >> Susie Wee, Vice President and CTO at Cisco's DevNet. We're here for the inaugural event, DevNet Create, with the community, two great communities coming together. I'm John Furrier with Peter Burris, stay tuned for more coverage from our exclusive DevNet Create coverage, stay with us. (upbeat music) >> Hi, I'm April Mitchell, and I'm the senior director of strategy.