>>From the cube studios in Palo Alto, in Boston, connecting with thought leaders all around the world. This is a cute conversation. Hi, welcome back. I'm Stu middleman. And this is a cube conversation digging in with, talking about what they're doing to help people. Yeah. Really bringing some of the networking ideals to cloud native environment, both know in the cloud, in the data centers program, Krishna penny. He is the vice president of software. Thanks so much for joining us. Thank you so much for talking to me. Alright, so, so Krishna the pin Sandow team, uh, you know, very well known in the industry three, uh, you innovation. Yeah. Especially in the networking world. Give us a little bit about your background specifically, uh, how long you've been part of this team and, uh, you know, but, uh, you know, you and the team, you know? Yeah. >>And Sando. Yup. Um, so, uh, I'm VP of software in Sandow, um, before Penn Sarno, before founding concern, though, I worked in a few startups in CME networks, uh, newer systems and Greenfield networks, all those three startups have been acquired by Cisco. Um, um, my recent role before this, uh, uh, this, this company was a, it was VP of engineering and Cisco, uh, I was responsible for a product called ACA, which is course flagship SDN tonic. Mmm. So I mean, when, why did we find a phone, uh, Ben Sandoz? So when we were looking at the industry, uh, the last, uh, a few years, right? The few trends that are becoming clear. So obviously we have a lot of enterprise background. We were watching, you know, ECA being deployed in the enterprise data centers. One sore point for customers from operational point of view was installing service devices, network appliances, or storage appliances. >>So not only the operational complexity that this device is bringing, it's also, they don't give you the performance and bandwidth, uh, and PPS that you expect, but traffic, especially from East West. So that was one that was one major issue. And also, if you look at where the intelligence is going, has been, this has been the trend it's been going to the edge. The reason for that is the motors or switches or the devices in the middle. They cannot handle the scale. Yeah. I mean, the bandwidths are growing. The scale is growing. The stateful stuff is going in the network and the switches and the appliances not able to handle it. So you need something at the edge close to the application that can handle, uh, uh, this kind of, uh, services and bandwidth. And the third thing is obviously, you know, x86, okay. Even a few years back, you know, every two years, you know, you're getting more transistors. >>I mean, obviously the most lined it. And, uh, we know we know how that, that part is going. So the it's cycles are more valuable and we don't want to use them for this network services Mmm. Including SDN or firewalls or load balancer. So NBME, mutualization so looking at all these trends in the industry, you know, we thought there is a good, uh, good opportunity to do a domain specific processor for IO and build products around it. I mean, that's how we started Ben signed off. Yeah. So, so Krishna, it's always fascinating to watch. If you look at startups, they are often yeah. Okay. The time that they're in and the technologies that are available, you know, sometimes their ideas that, you know, cakes a few times and, you know, maturation of the technology and other times, you know, I'll hear teams and they're like, Oh, well we did this. >>And then, Oh, wow. There was this new innovation came out that I wish I had add that when I did this last time. So we do, a generation. Oh, wow. Talking about, you know, distributed architectures or, you know, well, over a decade spent a long time now, uh, in many ways I feel edge computing is just, you know, the latest discussion of this, but when it comes to, and you know, you've got software, uh, under, under your purview, um, what are some of the things that are available for that might not have been, you know, in your toolkit, you know, five years ago. Yeah. So the growth of open source software has been very helpful for us because we baked scale-out microservices. This controller, like the last time I don't, when we were building that, you know, we had to build our own consensus algorithm. >>We had to build our own dishwasher database for metrics and humans and logs. So right now, uh, we, I mean, we have, because of open source thing, we leverage CD elastic influx in all this open source technologies that you hear, uh, uh, since we want to leverage the Kubernetes ecosystem. No, that helped us a lot at the same time, if you think about it. Right. But even the software, which is not open source, close source thing, I'm maturing. Um, I mean, if you talk about SDN, you know, seven APS bank, it was like, you know, the end versions of doing off SDN, but now the industry standard is an ADPN, um, which is one of the core pieces of what we do we do as Dean solution with DVA. Um, so, you know, it's more of, you know, the industry's coming to a place where, you know, these are the standards and this is open source software that you could leverage and quickly innovate compared to building all of this from scratch, which will be a big effort for us stocked up, uh, to succeed and build it in time for your customer success. >>Yeah. And Krishna, I, you know, you talk about open forum, not only in the software, the hardware standards. Okay. Think about things, the open compute or the proliferation of, you know, GPS and, uh, everything along that, how was that impact? I did. So, I mean, it's a good thing you're talking about. For example, we were, we are looking in the future and OCP card, but I do know it's a good thing that SEP card goes into a HP server. It goes into a Dell software. Um, so pretty much, you know, we, we want to, I mean, see our goal is to enable this platform, uh, that what we built in, you know, all the use cases that customer could think of. Right. So in that way, hardware, standardization is a good thing for the industry. Um, and then same thing, if you go in how we program the AC, you know, we at about standards of this people, programming, it's an industry consortium led by a few people. >>Um, we want to make sure that, you know, we follow the standards for the customer who's coming in, uh, who wants to program it., it's good to have a standards based thing rather than doing something completely proprietary at the same time you're enabling innovations. And then those innovations here to push it back to the open source. That's what we trying to do with before. Yeah. Excellent. I've had some, some real good conversations about before. Um, and, and the way, uh, and Tondo is, is leveraging that, that may be a little bit differently. You know, you talk about standards and open source, oftentimes it's like, well, is there a differentiator there, there are certain parts of the ecosystem that you say, well, kind of been commodified. Mmm. Obviously you're taking a lot of different technologies, putting them together, uh, help, help share the uniqueness. Okay. And Tondo what differentiates, what you're doing from what was available in the market or that I couldn't just cobbled together, uh, you know, a bunch of open source hardware and software together. >>Yeah. I mean, if you look at a technologist, I think the networking that both of us are very familiar with that. If you want to build an SDN solution, or you can take a, well yes. Or you can use exhibit six and, you know, take some much in Silicon and cobble it together. But the problem is you will not get the performance and bandwidth that you're looking for. Okay. So let's say, you know, uh, if you want a high PPS solution or you want a high CPS solution, because the number of connections are going for your IOT use case or Fiji use case, right. If you, uh, to get that with an open source thing, without any assist, uh, from a domain specific processor, your performance will be low. So that is the, I mean, that's once an enterprise in the cloud use case state, as you know, you're trying to pack as many BMCs containers in one set of word, because, you know, you get charged. >>I mean, the customer, uh, the other customers make money based on that. Right? So you want to offload all of those things into a domain specific processor that what we've built, which we call the TSC, which will, um, which we'll, you know, do all the services at pretty much no cost to accept a six. I mean, it's to six, you'll be using zero cycles, a photo doing, you know, features like security groups or VPCs, or VPN, uh, or encryption or storage virtualization. Right. That's where that value comes in. I mean, if you count the TCO model using bunch of x86 codes or in a bunch of arm or AMD codes compared to what we do. Mmm. A TCO model works out great for our customers. I mean, that's why, you know, there's so much interest in a product. Excellent. I'm proud of you. Glad you brought up customers, Christina. >>One of the challenges I have seen over the years with networking is it tends to be, you know, a completely separate language that we speak there, you know, a lot of acronyms and protocols and, uh, you know, not necessarily passable to people outside of the silo of networking. I think back then, you know, SDN, uh, you know, people on the outside would be like, that stands for still does nothing, right? Like networking, uh, you know, mumbo jumbo there for people outside of networking. You know what I think about, you know, if I was going to the C suite of an enterprise customer, um, they don't necessarily care about those networking protocols. They care about the, you know, the business results and the product Liberty. How, how do you help explain what pen Sandow does to those that aren't, you know, steeped in the network, because the way I look at it, right? >>What is customer looking? But yeah, you're writing who doesn't need, what in cap you use customer is looking for is operational simplicity. And then he wants looking for security. They, it, you know, and if you look at it sometimes, you know, both like in orthogonal, if you make it very highly secure, but you make it like and does an operational procedure before you deploy a workload that doesn't work for the customer because in operational complexity increases tremendously. Right? So it, we are coming in, um, is that we want to simplify this for the customer. You know, this is a very simple way to deploy policies. There's a simple way to deploy your networking infrastructure. And in the way we do it is we don't care what your physical network is, uh, in some sense, right? So because we are close to the server, that's a very good advantage. >>We have, we have played the policies before, even the packet leaves the center, right? So in that way, he knows his fully secure environment and we, and you don't want to manage each one individually, we have this, okay, Rockwell PSM, which manages, you know, all this service from a central place. And it's easy to operationalize a fabric, whether you talk about upgrades or you talk about, you know, uh, deploying new services, it's all driven with rest API, and you can have a GUI, so you can do it a single place. And that's where, you know, a customer's value is rather than talking about, as you're talking about end caps or, you know, exactly the route to port. That is not the main thing that, I mean, they wake up every day, they wake up. Have you been thinking about it or do I have a security risk? >>And then how easy for me is to deploy new, uh, in a new services or bring up new data center. Right. Okay. Krishna, you're also spanning with your product, a few different worlds out. Yeah. You know, traditionally yeah. About, you know, an enterprise data center versus a hyperscale public cloud and ed sites, hi comes to mind very different skillset for management, you know, different types of okay. Appointments there. Mmm. You know, I understand right. You were going to, you know, play in all of those environments. So talk a little bit about that, please. How you do that and, you know, you know, where you sit in, in that overall discussion. Yes. So, I mean, a number one rule inside a company is we are driven by customers and obviously not customer success is our success. So, but given said that, right. What we try to do is that we try to build a platform that is kind of, you know, programmable obviously starting from, you know, before that we talked about earlier, but it's also from a software point of view, it's kind of plugable right. >>So when we build a software, for example, at cloud customers, and they use BSC, they use the same set of age KPI's or GSP CRS, TPS that DSC provides their controller. But when we ship the same, uh, platform, what enterprise customers, we built our own controller and we use the same DC APS. So the way we are trying to do is things is fully leverage yeah. In what we do for enterprise customers and cloud customers. Mmm. We don't try to reinvent the wheel. Uh, obviously at the same time, if you look at the highest level constructs from a network perspective, right. Uh, audience, for his perspective, what are you trying to do? You're trying to provide connectivity, but you're trying to avoid isolation and you're trying to provide security. Uh, so all these constructs we encapsulated in APA is a, which, you know, uh, in some, I, some, some mostly like cloud, like APS and those APIs are, are used, but cloud customers and enterprise customers, and the software is built in a way of it. >>Any layer is, can be removed on any layer. It can be hard, right? Because it's not interested. We don't want to be multiple different offers for different customers. Right. Then we will not scale. So the idea when we started the software architecture, is that how we make it pluggable and how will you make the program will that customer says, I don't want this piece of it. You can put them third party piece on it and still integrate, uh, at a, at a common layer with using. Yeah. Yeah. Well, you know, Krishna, you know, I have a little bit of appreciation where some of the hard work, what your team has been doing, you know, a couple of years in stealth, but, you know, really accelerating from, uh, you know, the announcement coming out of stealth, uh, at the end of 2019. Yeah. Just about half a year, your GA with a major OEM of HPE, definitely a lot of work that needs to be done. >>It brings us to, you know, what, what are you most proud about from the work that your team's doing? Uh, you know, we don't need to hear any, you know, major horror stories, but, you know, there always are some of them, you know, not holes or challenges that, uh, you know, often get hidden yeah. Behind the curtain. Okay. I mean, personally, I'm most proud of the team that we've made. Um, so, uh, you know, obviously, you know, uh, our executors have it good track record of disrupting the market multiple times, but I'm most proud of the team because the team is not just worried about that., uh, that, uh, even delegate is senior technologist and they're great leaders, but they're also worried about the customer problem, right? So it's always about, you know, getting the right mix, awfully not execution combined with technology is when you succeed, that is what I'm most proud of. >>You know, we have a team with, and Cletus running all these projects independently, um, and then releasing almost we have at least every week, if you look at all our customers, right. And then, you know, being a small company doing that is a, Hmm, it's pretty challenging in a way. But we did, we came up with methodologists where we fully believe in automation, everything is automated. And whenever we release software, we run through the full set of automation. So then we are confident that customer is getting good quality code. Uh, it's not like, you know, we cooked up something and that they should be ready and they need to upgrade to the software. That's I think that's the key part. If you want to succeed in this day and age, uh, developing the features at the velocity that you would want to develop and still support all these customers at the same time. >>Okay. Well, congratulations on that, Christian. All right. Final question. I have for you give us a little bit of guidance going forward, you know, often when we see a company out and we, you know, to try to say, Oh, well, this is what company does. You've got a very flexible architecture, lot of different types of solutions, what kind of markets or services might we be looking at a firm, uh, you know, download down the road a little ways. So I think we have a long journey. So we have a platform right now. We already, uh, I mean, we have a very baby, we are shipping. Mmm Mmm. The platforms are really shipping in a storage provider. Uh, we are integrating with the premier clouds, public clouds and, you know, enterprise market, you know, we already deployed a distributed firewall. Some of the customers divert is weird firewall. >>So, you know, uh, so if you take this platform, it can be extendable to add in all the services that you see in data centers on clubs, right. But primarily we are driven from a customer perspective and customer priority point of view. Mmm. So BMW will go is even try to add more ed services. We'll try to add more storage features. Mmm. And then we, we are also this initial interest in service provider market. What we can do for Fiji and IOT, uh, because we have the flexible platform. We have the, see, you know, how to apply this platform, this new application, that's where it probably will go into church. All right. Well, Krishna not a penny vice president of software with Ben Tondo. Thank you so much for joining us. Thank you, sir. It was great talking to you. All right. Be sure to check out the cube.net. You can find lots of interviews from Penn Sundo I'm Stu Miniman and thank you. We're watching the cute.

from the cube studios in Palo Alto in Boston connecting with thought leaders all around the world this is a cube conversation LeBron's special conversation I'm John Tory here in the cube I'm not in the studio I'm at home we're sheltering in place the studio quarantine crew is there we've got a great guest here to break down and Alice in the tech industries for vallah who's this principle of zk research Aziz great to check in with you for our check-in last time we chatted you broke down entire industry a lot to talk about now we have the Cisco earnings just came out and a lot of other great things are happening thanks for joining me well what's your take on what's going on yeah I think so thanks John it's uh it's been heard about tumultuous last few months I think one of the takeaways I had from Cisco's earnings actually was that it's not as bad as you think I know if you read a lot of what's going on the media we get everything from doomsday and the world's ending or whatever but I think what Cisco's earnings showed and in Cisco I know they have a lot of enemies and a lot of competitors out there but they're really still a bellwether for the industry and so everyone should rejoice in the fact that they actually had a pretty good quarter I think what was was telling about that was security was up the services business was up the margins were good and what that shows me is that there's still room for innovation customers relax are still buying things and they're willing to pay for things that actually help drive their business forward and so Cisco's put a lot of energy into their services group to make sure that customers are able to adapt their technology and change their business right and so from an overall market perspective Cisco is you know they're the quarters are the court has shifted from almost everybody else's and so they're generally a leading indicator of where things are going so I think the fact that they showed some strength they guided up from where the street thought I think that's a good thing for the entire industry and I think I'm not saying we're out of this yet but I think businesses are starting to spend money where they need to in order to put themselves in a position to come on strong after well once we start going back to work whoever knows what that'll be I think the other sort of interesting pivot here is that I think the overall role the network has changed with income right we've covered networking technologies a long time it gets a little bit of interest sometimes from sea level certainly not as much as it should from CEOs and CIOs a lot of people think of it as the plumbing and the pipes it's hard to understand it's a very complicated technology sometimes but when you look at what's happened with digital transformation initiatives and now covent we've got more people at home or adopting cloud services we use video for connecting more things with IOT initiatives so the overall value of the network is increased that I think that was also reflected in Cisco's numbers I think this transition had started when you look at a lot of the building blocks and digital transformation IOT cloud mobility things like that they're all Network centric in nature and so for the first time in history I think business leaders actually need to look at their network strategies because if that's without a sound network strategy as we sort of come out of this and the companies that have a good one will be able to really step on the gas and do what they want with their business the ones that don't I think I'd a really struggle to survive because I'm not gonna be able to do a lot of these advanced things yeah great point one of the things Brazil the new cisco has a new leadership new c has been in place for a while positioning they're going after and you know with the cloven crisis it really puts more pressure knock the move of the network because it's a core staple of an organization yet the transformation journey is going to be accelerated this gives Cisco it's a lucky strike for Cisco because it'll move packets around and the multi cloud conversation comes in and the enablement of application development all being five to the network is what cisco has been preparing on and this has kind of been a nuance point then that everyone understands but coming out of Cova to have a growth strategy if you're not programming up and down the stack with DevOps and Nets a cops or whatever you want to call it people working at home a new perimeter is now emerged that's everything everything is the premise is this a tailwind for Cisco your thoughts on that your face oh yeah the big time tailwind francisco i think what's happened gentlemen you look at network evolution over the last five years we can do much more with our network that's coming to cost and that cost us complexity so trying to tie all these things together SP Winn Sassie datacenter Sdn right we've got Wi-Fi six coming we've got 5g coming so we've got all these great things that we're gonna let our networks be faster than ever before and run applications we can never run before right you look at some of the demos on 5g we're able to wear untethered Wi-Fi our virtual reality headsets complete creating completely new shopping experiences educational experiences but you need a lot of bandwidth that but not only you need bandwidth I think the one thing that Kovac has taught us is do you have any weakness in the network anywhere right from the user's hand all the way to the cloud that weak point at the time and so now you have to start thinking of your network not in pieces of having a campus network Wi-Fi network data center network and that a single network right and so cisco is really one of the few companies maybe the only company that can actually deliver that end and network that starts in the company extends to people's homes goes out to the cloud and with what they've done masterfully under Chuck Robbins is they've been able to pile those things together to create a much simpler way of operating this complicated network so you look at what they're doing you know with a CI and intent based networking what that is is you can think of it almost as a software overlay that masks the complexity of the network that's underneath it yeah talking about cisco over the past decade and a half and i'm with the stack guys you gotta move up the stack this has been this is now their opportunity and with multi cloud on the horizon or here this is going to give cisco a path but I got to ask you what is your take and advice to Cisco when you're out there talking to them you're talking to of the customers all the time and practitioners you're the analyst what do they need to do better because you can't just wish a multi cloud upon the marketplace it's coming but it's not clearly not the use case yet so that's a time lag between a CI intent based networking to true multi-cloud what if Cisco do in the meantime yeah well I think what's this go has to do is is think about what they're doing with a CI and multi cloud and actually help their customers implement it in in pieces and what the description I'd use is is the paths this goes on and the path customers are on actually in this world of you think if the end state is true hybrid multi-cloud right we have to get there in ship shots and not moon shots and what I mean by that is if you were to say to a customer this is your end state right the path to get there is so donkey and it's like a moon shot that it paralyzes the customer if you break this down into a set of chip shots right that gets much easier so so put the infrastructure in place to be able to just have the visibility across applause then maybe automate movement from hi private the public cloud right then automate some of the processes that give you the most headaches then move to a bigger Ottoman Ottoman automation framework right so yeah areas like security network configuration right things like that those are those are very difficult for customers to do manually those are the things they should be automating today so what they want to do is almost take through their intent-based network to almost as a lighthouse the road to a visionary state and then help customers get there in pieces because if they try and rush them along too fast I think they'll lose the customer because the complexity is too high the other area they should really be focused on is continuing to mature the services business I think that's something under Chuck Robbins that's night and day different than what it was the services business - Cisco prior to Chuck was a lot of break fix you know their TAC is well renowned as being a great pack but now they've gotten more of the pro services they've gotten more into adoption services and I think the more subscription they sell what Cisco needs to really understand is that customers tend not to renew things they don't use right so making sure that the services group helps customers and use the things that they're paying for and that'll pay dividends for them multiple dividends for them down the road I want to get the silken one on that opportunity to upsell and do a refresh because what refreshes are not gonna be on the docket early on unless discuss business value so let's hold that for a second John Chambers has been on the cube recently in his new role as a coach and investor and he says to us on the cube you know transitions versus transformation Cisco and the big companies are expected to win the transitions but now with coming out of this there's real transformation so you got to look at things like collaboration hey guys get better this is not just win the enterprise with a better web max zoom is they can ask Bob teams is out there so you know Cisco's that's a huge collaboration piece and a bunch of other business so where's their transition wins and where's their transformational opportunity in Europe in well I think the entire company is kind of going through transformations right even on the network side so it's right it's like you know the industry has been calling Francisco to get commoditized for years right and if you look the product gross margins are actually the strongest they've been in a decade right so I remember when I fell below 60% they everybody thought the world was falling this quarter I think was a little over 65 on the product side and so my belief is nothing is really a commodity if you can drive innovation that's what's this has been doing so from a transition standpoint I think they've done a lot of that they've transitioned the company to software and services they've transitioned the company more terrain model they've actually decoupled software from the hardware so customers can buy differently and you brought up the fact that we may not have a hardware refresh but that's okay as long as they keep the software a newa cycles forth where the transformations has to come is completely change the dynamics of how something works and so with intent-based networking you think of the old way that network engineers to work like the way I used to work when I was an engineer a lot of hunting pecking and at a CLI doing a lot of cutting and pasting and using homegrown tools that doesn't scale anymore my research shows that on average takes companies about four months the implemented change network-wide far too slow for digital company right so Francisco's done is they've accelerated that by letting customers automate more things and so Francisco the transformation comes in allowing customers to new new things I think you read in the collaboration side there's more work to do nobody's got a bigger collaboration portfolio than Cisco they got endpoints they got rooms just right they've got software they were a cloud on Prem but they got to take that and tie it together and I think the other area that's is gonna need improving is on they've they've got a lot of management tools that that look at different things they have at the ACI manager and a whole bunch of different security consoles in fact they funded them sometimes and said that the market leader in single panes of glass because they have more than anybody right I think eventually they got to be able to tie that information together and help customers understand what it means from a cross domain perspective because they still build a product's wireless campus data center but as I mentioned before we just have one network and so Cisco can aggregate this data up apply machine learning to it and help customers what that means they see insight across the entire network that would really be powerful because they they've got the footprint now they just have to be able to deliver the machine learning based insights some customers understand what that data means and they have a unique opportunity in the short term no one's going to be kidding Cisco out anytime soon there's a safety rating and using the big companies I think what what Cisco is able to bring is a there's a level of financial stability that other companies may not have and so they can weather the storm for a long time so you know I it's easy to say going to Cisco is the safe bet it has been for a long time but but i but I think it's also the smart bet I think they're they're able to continue to invest in things maybe smaller companies more people do yeah my question on Cisco a big fan of their strategy have been vocal about that for a while my question on Cisco want to be critical is to say how fast can you get that development going show the software value in market show customers a growth trajectory that they can execute on it can advantage the network policy intelligence if they could do that they're gonna be in good shape you agree yeah I think one of the challenges though is the transformation of their customer base do and that's where the work Suzy we've been doing in the dev that teams so important like if if they were to shift their whole strategy over at the developer folks talk word today I think that would largely put them in a position or trouble because the engineers that work with the stuff and the resellers that work with the stuff aren't they don't really have the skill sets they advantage that right so last year Suzy we she really talked a lot about the growth a definite this year they came out with in Barcelona this year they they came up with a bunch of certifications for dev net now there they were actually coming out with a number of a partner certifications as well so the resellers can get certified but I think it's important that they continue to push their engineer base into gaining these new skills I'll give you an interesting data point for my research and that's you know that only about a quarter of networking engineers has ever made an API call right and so you look at all Cisco's new gear it's all API driven and so if you want to do something as simple as say get all the IP addresses in your network you can just use an API call for that right the other way to do it is you do a show command and the CLI your screen scrape and you take a visual basic trip that you parse it you know and you get it that way right so the API map using those is a lot easier and so I think Cisco's got a good strategy with Deb net they've grown that face a lot it's still relatively small you know it's under a million people and you think of the overall size the Cisco customer user base point that's where they gonna put some effort right more and more out driving adoption to them now well I think you're smarter than I think you're researching them they must be listening to you because they haven't really tried to jam that down their throats they've been very humble about it and I think a million is pretty damn good number I think Cisco again to your point they're bringing people into the water the low end first before you you go to the deep end so swim with the bubble if you will with definite what they did was they assumed the engineer had no knowledge of software because I think at first when they put the lot of the programs a place they assumed people would have some knowledge of how to code right and and I also think the industry did them a bit of a disservice we used her there was a lot of stuff written in the media how every network engineer needs to become a software developer well they don't have to summer get make them software developers but they at least have to come software power ease right so do your job through software but you don't have to be a developer and that's where definite really when it really matured is that diverge down to past developer engineer who's your saw common software skills and then you break down a specialist after that and so they've they've actually helped with the maturity of that they've changed their certification programs for reflect that and I think Devin that really is a big be and if they can transition that engineer base then it helps the adoption of the new on these I want to get your final thoughts on this segment on multi-cloud obviously it would be a really great win for it creates of interoperability strictly with the network intelligence cisco could bring to the table and others you got startups out there like aviatrix and others and vmware with nsx trying to get that for the security fabric a lot of action going on with multi cloud and networking your thoughts what does your research tell you what's gonna transpire how do you see that market playing out in my research shows that little R ad percent of companies prior to Co vid had multi-cloud on the roadmap and I'm assuming that's that's gone up I haven't actually done a survey since then um one of the I think it's funny koban exposed a lot of things from a lot of vendors right and I think one of the things that is is shown cracks in the cloud yeah you look at some of the the data and how many outages Microsoft had Google had some strains AWS has held up pretty well under the strain of of a lot of the higher utilization when coated but they've been building a lot of capacity into theirs as well so I think from a customer perspective it makes sense you don't want to put all your eggs in one basket some cloud providers are stronger in some regions they each have different their own different cloud platforms other private cloud platforms and the problem is is if you decide if you decide to go multi-cloud you can't use the cloud providers tools right so if I use an AWS load balancer that works great in AWS but it's not gonna help me with Azure or GCE similarly if I use GCP tools I can't extend that out the azure so something needs to connect those and be able to five security and policy and that's where multi cloud comes from and you're right there's some good startups there I think um the difference with Cisco this time versus the Sdn world was when as the ends came about I think Cisco didn't want that to happen and I think they actually actively worked against us the end and I've talked to chuck Robbins about that he said you'll never ever see Cisco do that again if something is good for the customers they want to lead that transition and so Cisco's been very active in multi focking and given they've got the install base already I do think they will help bring this long but there are some good stir yeah it's interesting Sdn really wasn't ready for primetime even when VMware bought in this era hey when it was still there I didn't have a lot of revenue it had a future VMware claims that's the saves and NSX was saved by a Sdn some people say was completely rewritten final thoughts on outlook and you see coming out of Ovid obviously it's been well reported we've been reporting VPNs have been under provision that was a blind spot bought a blind spots and disruption that wasn't forecasted in the classic sense there was no there was no you know hurricane there was no flood it was a covin invisible disruption yeah and there's no impact right like even with when you think of what happened with the the floods in New York and 9/11 people knew that they'd eventually go back and so business continuity and disaster recovery was a temporary thing and I can I set up a data center to work for a couple months so I can go back to New York that's not the case with koban where we're trying to manage for an undefined endpoint which is extremely difficult for an IT perspective I do think that Kogan again has highlighted the value of the network I think we'll see a lot of transition from VPN to sd when I think that's that's certainly good I think the rise in video will also cause a Wi-Fi upgrade cycle we'll get back to the office and I think you'll see a lot of focus on programmability and agility because I don't believe we're gonna see everybody return to the office was like one big bang John I think we're more likely to see is the future work to be almost like when you and I were in college we do a bunch of stuff at home we go to the campus when we have classes and when we want to meet people similarly we'll go to work when we have meetings and then in between meetings we'll go find an open place to work but in general we'll do a lot of work a lot more work from home in fact my research shows 93 percent of the business leaders I interviewed said they expect to see at least a 30 percent increase in the work from home post Kovan right so we're gonna have a lot more people doing that but it's not gonna be everyone working for home everybody work in the office it's gonna be a hybrid of the two people are gonna come and go and that bribes the need for agility and today's networks really not that agile and so I need I want to go back to college if we do thirsty happy hours do I mean have the whole week or the stupid stuff it's the final point you mentioned SP when I was talking with Dave Volante SP Minutemen just last week and I said you know this SD win today is not your grandfather's sdn meaning SP where it's changed a lot it's basically the internet now so what was the modern update definition of SD grin I mean it used to be you connect the wide area network you can have some campus you'd do some networking what is it now what's the same name but it's yeah what is it your journey the technology if you look at the adoption of anything right the first wave of stuff is to make the new stuff look like the old stuff so we put VoIP in we made it look a lot like TDM when we had cloud we lifted and shift it and how did we didn't really enjoy wraps and then we eventually get smart and think what can I do with the new thing that I can't do the old thing and so a lot of early SD win deployments were simply just replacements for MPLS and they were put in to save a bit of money but now companies are getting smarter they're thinking about what can I do with my SD win that I couldn't do before so there's a lot more tighter integration with security I think as companies but SD win in and and think about what the win is today John it used to be corporate offices and data centers I think it's everybody's house right and so being able to extend your win at the single people out to planes trains and automobiles you remember that movie but those are all getting connected as well people's back acts fan kiosk those are all becoming way endpoints right so that's where you need to embed more security in the network and so I think that's a transition we've seen into that see you and I think the technology has matured to the point where it's getting easier to deploy faster to flow and you're right we can use the internet for transport in some cases some will still keep there still be a lot of MPLS out there but I do think we wind up in this hybrid world but clearly then the time has never been better for for SD win I will see a rule of curve for that because it's the only way to extend the win the people's homes the things the cars and really anything that's connected you know that's such a great point and I think this is a real new once in the industry it's a whole nother rebirth of the category because the aperture is brighter you got policy you've got reliability and get security built in this is key key Johnny H salt key yeah yeah whole concept the AI ops becomes real because we're collecting data and we're able to use AI to automate operations so Z's we call it s T win 2.0 that's what you got to do we got making an acronym out of this come on we can't just saw s T when it is SD win - righto because it's the next it's that it's it's the second wave of it we're actually thinking about how to transform our companies so the the John Chambers quote of transition for transversus transformation is apropos because the like I said a lot of the waves that that Cisco went through early on was we transition the market and then we transform right and so SD win so far has been transitional moving away from the old thing but now in strength and defense formed where our entire network operates these gradients that always a pleasure to talk to you get the straight scoop for the signal right there from all the noise in the industry now more than ever people are gonna be focused on critical project so thanks for your insight as DK now can research great stuff and we'll keep keep following you in great guest thank you come on thanks John first burger okay cute conversation here remote we're doing our part either at home and studio quarantine in this is the cube virtual virtualization has come to the cube will do will do whatever it takes to get the content out there Z's thanks so much for coming I appreciate thanks for watching on John Currier [Music]

>>Ply from Barcelona, Spain. It's the cube covering Cisco live 2020 route to you by Cisco and its ecosystem partners. >>Hi buddy. Welcome back to the queue, the leader in live tech coverage. My name is Dave Volante with cohost Humanum and John furriers. Here we go out to the events, we extract the signal from the noise and of course this is day one of Cisco live Barcelona. Very excited to have Presant Shanola. He's the vice president of marketing enterprise networks for IOT and the developer platform at Cisco for sounds good to see you. Good to see you folks too. So right now we're in the middle of the the DNA center takeover in the dev net zone network's getting more complex. You need a command center to understand what's going on. >>Yeah, give us the update Y DNA. Yeah. So this has been a journey for Cisco and for our customers for the last three years or so. Right. So a few things happened in the last decade, like mobile, IOT, cloud, and the world of security. All of those came together in one place. And if you look at it, these are very network centric technologies, right? There'd be no cloud without networking or mobile or IOT. So when our customers started investing heavily in the world of applications in the cloud environment, mobile and IOT, the network was slightly left behind. The network that they had created and built was meant for the internet era, not for this multicloud mobile and IOT era. So we had to rethink networking fundamentally from the ground up to how do you help our customers design, build, scale, manage and deploy networks for this new era of digital transformation driven by mobile and cloud. >>And that was the Genesis of our intent based networking strategy, right? So that was like three years back. Then we designed a networking architecture that focuses on the business intent and lets you figure out the how part of it. Then NATO figures it out. So the DNS center was the command center as Dave, you put it to help manage design and build this network from the ground up. And it's been a journey for us and it's been a very, very exciting journey for us where we are getting a lot of positive feedback from the customer, whether it's to deploy their access infrastructure, wired wireless are more into the wide area network extending into data center and public cloud environment. >>So when we went from internet to the cloud, yoga talks about the flattening of the network and now I know we're going to talk about it. >>Yeah, yeah. Are we going to need a new DNA center for that next wave or no, it's the pendulum swing, right? Like it's all this meaning interesting mainframes, centralized and decentralized edges. Then again, centralized in the cloud and now cloud moving to the edge. So this is always going to be an interesting phenomenon and it's mainly because the world around both sides of the networking has become highly hyper connected and highly dynamic, right? Like users are mobile devices are everywhere, applications are everywhere. A single application is split into 500 different pieces run in containers and microservices across four different public clouds and three different data centers, right? Like, how do you manage this dynamic environment? How do you set the policy? How do you guarantee an application experience? So this has been a very challenging environment. So the idea of DNS entry is to provide you that single command center, right? >>No matter whether you want to deploy it as a Wachtel service, a physical service in the cloud, in a hardware platform, doesn't matter. Right? So how do you get all of your data? How do you get a single place to provision the system? Well, I'm glad you've mentioned scale quite a few times talking about this for the longest time it was how do we get the network people to get off of their CLI and go to the gooey? Well, I don't care if you've got the best goo in the world, the, the hyper connectivity, the amount of changes going on, people can't do this alone. So talk to us a little bit about know tooling, the automation, the API APIs, connect all these things and make sure that our people don't become the bottleneck for innovation. >> Frankly, the complexity has exceeded human scale. It's just impossible. >>It's funny because I was talking to the CIO for a pretty large global bank. I can't tell the name who was saying like, Hey, a few years back I had one it person to manage around thousand devices, all the devices. Right? And then that year when I was talking, and this was 2016 he had one is to 10,000 device, one it for 10,000 devices to manage. And he said, I'm looking in 2020 to be one it for 250,000 devices going up to a million devices. I'm like, dude, you're doing some funky Matthew. It's like, that looks like that hockey stick curve. Right? And I'm like, he was right. Now I don't even know what's on my network, what's connected to my network. I have, I'm flying blind. And that opens up a lot of security issues. That opens up a lot of operational challenges. In fact, for every dollar our customer spends on cap X for buying the network, they spend $3 on opics managing the network, monitoring and troubleshooting the network. >>So that's the key point saying that you can hire a hundred more it staff, you're just not going to be able to manage the complexity. So there has to be an automation world, right? We live in a world where repetitive tasks should be done by machines and not human beings. It's happened and the rest of the lives and networks, operations is just one part of that. So the concept of controller led architectures, which was the Genesis of SDN is now being applied to this world of intern based networking. But we also get the data to provide you insight on how things are behaving and how to take actions before it happens. >> Well, yeah, you brought up, are you used to, how many devices the enterprise can manage was something we measured for the longest time and used to compare to the hyperscalers and I said, well, here's the myth there. >>It's not that they're managing two of magnitude more equipment. They architect completely different Zack. They build the applications with the expectation that everything underneath is going to change. It's going to fail, it's going to be upgraded. So you don't have somebody inside of Yahoo in Google and all these hyperscalers running around patching and updating things. They build a data center and they keep adding environments and they throw things in the woodchipper when they're done and they break things down. So it's a completely different mindset. And part of SDN was the promise of it was to take some of those hyperscaler methodologies and bring it to Massell enterprise. So tell us how your software today is delivering kind of that, that hyperscale architecture and that's a little bit of a culture change for the enterprise. It's been a huge culture change, right? Like the concept of like abstracting the underlay complexity of all the network physical connections and giving an oral a, what we call a fabric. >>So underlying network works as a single integrated system, right? It's not like switches, routers, controllers, access point. All of that complexity is taken out. So you're programming a single fabric, putting the right policy and the controller will figure out how do I enforce that policy in this switch, that place, this controller, this access point? Right? So that was the complexity the Netflix operators of yesteryears we're dealing with. Right? They had to go and configure Mitzi Elias and now API, since we are in dev net is the new CLI. Right? Like, and that becomes a culture shift for network operators. Like I've been in the networking space for like 20 years. I was born on CLI, right? Like, and even when I created systems like access control lists, QRS and I had to system test my own code is fricking nightmare. It is tough. It is tough to manage that as a single system. >>Right? And that's why the role of controller to abstract the complexity of a, to program the infrastructure and then expose this intelligence to other systems, whether it's it systems, but it's business applications goes a long way. So that's why this journey is really exciting for us. So it sounds like we're entering the era of self-driving networks that, I mean you've got to even visualize this virtually possible unless it's at that abstraction layer. Yeah, absolutely. I mean there are new technologies that a lot of consumer markets and other places I've used like machine learning right? Like we have so much data within the network, the network sees everything, right? Because the connection point from mobile IOT to applications and cloud, right? But we haven't really leveraged the power of the data and the intelligence, right? And now that we have all of the data and now we have things like machine learning, it can identify traffic patterns and provide you more insights around your business, around your it and security, right? >>So that really takes the guesswork away. And the good part is with machine learning, the more data you feed it, the more it's learning from the data, not just your own local networks but the net folks across the world. And that makes it constantly adapting to changing conditions and constantly learning based on the traffic patterns and your environment. And that's a pretty exciting field, right? Because we've implemented that in the security field to predict threats before they happen. We've implemented that in parts of application performance and now you're bringing it to the wall of networking at cost access branch ran and campus to like help it move from a reactive world to more of a proactive world. To a predictive world, right? So they can spend less time looking for the needle in a haystack and focus more on solving strategic >>problems. So when you get into discussions about machine intelligence, oftentimes there's discussions about Oh, replacing jobs and you know, blah blah blah. And so it'll, it'll turn to a discussion of augmented intelligence, which very reasonable thing, what you just described as removing mundane tasks. Nobody wants to do those anymore. Here's my question. You talked about your CLI experience over the last 20 years. Is that CLI sort of tribal knowledge still vital as part, you know, part of the art of networking or does the machine essentially >>take over and humans you'll go on to other things? Yeah, I think that's a great question Dave. Like I call these next generation of network operators, the unicorns. So you do need to have the tribal knowledge of networking, not necessarily CLI, but the concept of networking. How do these protocols work? Right? Like this is not easy. It's, there are very, very few network engineers compared to application developers and software engineers in the world. So this is always going to be critical. But now if you marry this knowledge and compliment this knowledge with programmability and automation and application, you got yourself a unicorn that is going to be very, very strategic to the business because now the world of infrastructure and applications are coming together so he can truly focus on your business, which is run on applications, right? How can you, our applications run Foster's mater better with the network and how can your network understand how the applications are behaving becomes a whole new world. So you seek a new roles of network practitioners emerging. I feel like the data scientist after network, like the security defender of the network, the wall of security ops and networks are coming together. So that's what is exciting for us because you get bored in your life if you're doing just repetitive tasks and not learning new. And this provides a new way of ruining. So for me it's not taking jobs away. It's like upgrading your skillset to a whole new level. That's a lot more, >>well this is the secret of Cisco still. We've talked about this. All these hundreds of thousands of network engineers with growth path, income develop. What >>I've found fascinating is really unlocking that data because for the last decade we've talked about, well there's the network flows and there's analytics in the network streams, but what had been missing and what I think is starting to be there, as you said, that connectivity between the application and the actual data for the business, it isn't just some arcane dark art of networking and we're making that run better, faster, better, cheaper. But it's what that enables for the business, the data and the applications that there is a tighter, relevant they are today. That's the key thing, right? I mean everybody has been talking about data now, I dunno for 1520 years. It's the new crude aisle if you will. Right? But everybody has access to data and nobody knows what to do with it, right? Like this philosophical thing of data to knowledge to wisdom is like what we are all striving towards. >>Right? And now that we have access to this data and we have this intelligence system, which is a multi software that ingest data from not just networking but devices connected to the network, the security trends that we are seeing, the application data that you're seeing and provides this context and provide two very key insights around how does that impact your business, how does that impact your ID? How does that impact your security is a very powerful thing. Um, and you don't find that and you need to have that breadth of portfolio and system to be able to get all of the data and consume that at a hyperscale level, if you will. We often say in the cubit that data is plentiful insights or not, and you need insights in order to be able to take action. And that's where automation comes in for shot. Great segment. Thank you very much for coming on the cube. Really appreciate it. Thank you today. Thanks to pleasure. Awesome. All right. Thank you for watching. This is the cube live from Barcelona, Cisco live 2020 Dave Volante for stupid event and John furrier, we'll be right back.

>>Live from San Diego, California at the cube covering to clock in cloud native con brought to you by red hat, the cloud native computing foundation and its ecosystem Marsh. >>Welcome back. This is the cubes coverage of CubeCon cloud native con here in San Diego. I am Stu Miniman. He is Justin Warren and our guest for this segment, a cube alumni VJ pan day, who's the vice president and CTO of cloud inside Cisco. Also on the keynote stage this morning. Be joined. Thanks so much for joining us again. Welcome. Pleasure to be here. All right, so, uh, we've got to see the sequel on stage. Uh, network. Please evolve. Part two. Uh, there were magnets involved. Uh, there were some XKCD Keke humor in there, which, uh, definitely this audience appreciates it. Um, but part to come on the networking industry is known for its lightening fast changes. Um, Oh, maybe I'm thinking of this ecosystem, but um, it could give her audience a little bit of a taste of, uh, you know, the, the, the, the premise, uh, of, of what you were talking about. >>Absolutely. I think, uh, so back in Barcelona I talked about how networking needed to evolve for a cloud native environment and the whole idea behind that talk was we've gone from physical infrastructure, which we call infant one dot Oh two virtual, which is in for two Dato. And in that transition, really nothing much changed except taking everything that was physical or even in the application space, taking monolithic apps and just wrapping everything up in a VM. And that was okay because you got a few things around a agility, you got disaster recovery, you got a few aspects that you would like. But largely things are monolithic largely, especially on the networking side, things were still being touted as routers or via routers, switches or switches, mr music, BGP and so on and so forth. Now when you're looking at containers and microservices, and I'm not talking about containers, which are just different shifts, but if you're breaking the application down into microservices or you're using silver less to build your applications, the app is getting thinner and thinner and much more distributed. >>That's where there's a complete reimagining of the application. There's a rearchitecture and because of that, the operational architecture is changing because you can't just have a database admin. The database is now 500 components. So you need your SRE organizations, your DevOps organizations to be aligned to that. You also, and therefore your organization changes because you're following this architecture paradigm shift. Yeah. So when that happens, how can the infrastructure remain the same? So you cannot use the concepts that you've used for physical and virtual networking, which have aggregate statistical networks to solve an application networking problem. Right? >>So w w one of the big challenges there is enterprise especially they've got a lot of applications. >>When you talk about how many of them are modern apps, it's a very small segment. You know, we talk about, Oh, 20% of apps in the cloud. Well how many apps have been modernized? It's a smaller piece of that and we need to have the bridge to the customer in all of the places that they are and are going. And you know, cloud is not a destination. It's, it's an operational model. So how do I, how do I span all of the environment? And embrace them and still keep, keep, everything's moving forward to, to drive the business. That's a good question. So I think if you look at, so to your point, there is a small percentage of apps that are cloud native today. I don't think it's as small as 20% I think it's closer to around 40 but we may differ on that number. >>What we are seeing is that that number is only growing. So that's a trend to watch out for. And the other trend to watch out for is it's not just the mobile front end or the dashboard that's becoming cloud native, which was the case a couple of years ago. You're seeing databases, you're seeing a middleware, you're seeing data processing pipelines, things that are critical to our business, do all of the apps that are getting modernized and becoming cloud native. So that's one aspect. The other aspect is you might have a function that remains and legacy, so to speak and get replaced by a cloud native app that does the same thing. So you might not rewrite it, but you might replace it. So that's happening quite a bit. And so, but to your question, how do you connect all of this, these things together? Cloud native is a philosophy. It's a way of operating an infrastructure is a way of building in the redundancy we have building in velocity. So that philosophy needs to percolate not just the new cloud native apps, but you need to uplift the old infrastructure and let them become cloud native as well. So things that we're doing with an assignment, things that we're doing with the attrition and our dynamic and a whole bunch of efforts within Cisco are geared towards uplifting the older gear on all the infrastructure in order applications. Do a client cloud native operational paradigm. >>Yeah, that's true. You mentioned part of that requires changing the way human behavior works, that it changing the way you operate a lot of this infrastructure. So it's not just about purchasing a particular tool, it's about actually using different tools in completely new and different ways. So what are some of the ways that Cisco is changing the kinds of products that it offers to customers that encourages them to operate their infrastructure in a new way? >>So let me start with the networking piece and since it's fresh and new from the keynote today, uh, one of the things, if you think about again, the developers and how they deal with applications, they want the network to be simple, available and pervasive. And so if you think about this in couple of tiers, so there is a physical infrastructure that sits below everything that is again, pervasive across a multicloud environment. And it goes all the way from your handset to the data center, including the edge compute locations. It connects everything together. So taking a network like that and simplifying it in terms of automation, in terms of how dev ops can handle that networking subsystem, in terms of how do you ensure that policy is consistent across this common environment, that is something that Cisco is pushing pretty deeply. So we have this multi-domain architecture that allows you to push policy across the entire network handset to the data center through the van. >>So that's one aspect of it. But above this sits a platform layer that is closer to the developer. And this is why things like NSM comment, because the developers don't want to deal with the bells and whistles at the physical or the virtual infrastructure layer. They are defining the CRDs. They are defining that if I'm a microservice, I want to talk to another microservice, all of bare metal orders over less function. I just want to connect a to B within my application. I don't care about every other application that exists in your infrastructure. And these are the attributes that I want from that connection. So it's like a watch and Wyatt like a bus and these are the attributes to the bus and that's what we're trying to handle from a cloud native perspective. So that's what you see from the NSM side of things. >>So, uh, we, we just had to go on talking about the database and talking about a cloud native database. And, uh, the way he really describes it is, you know, it's baked into Kubernetes even though Vitez doesn't have to have Coobernetti's. And he said he even had customers that it made it possible for them to be able to, uh, have that database from one cloud to another without needing to talk to his team. Uh, and it's, it's made things possible. Help us understand how the network service mesh fit into solutions like that. >>Absolutely. And I think if you think, I mean, I love the Virtus project they've graduated, so congratulations to them. But I think, uh, the concept behind that is taking the multicloud aspect of everything that we do to a layer which is higher in the stack. So we've talked about multicloud in terms of networking, in terms of compute, uh, in terms of infrastructure primarily, but looking at a database which is multicloud looking at storage, which is multicloud. I think that's the next layer of evolution in this entire stack. But one of the examples that are talked about in my keynote, very simple, but as, or not retest, it doesn't matter. Something that every organization wants to do is dig databases that are scattered across a multitude of on-prem or a multitude of clouds and just replicate. And to do that replication, the amount of pain that any organization needs to go through today. >>It's just like programming with magnets. Going back to my keynote where you're dealing with the technical complexities of doing this, you're talking to so many routers and switches, you're talking to firewalls, you're talking to colo providers, you're talking to cloud providers and especially every tore provider has their own compliance and configuration paradigms. So all of that being different. That's just the technical complexity within one organization. They like multitudes of teams. They have dev ops, net ops, tech ops, they all need to talk to each other. Even within Cisco we talked to our Cisco ID guys. Just dev ops is like 20 teams. There's not one team. So just imagine talking to all of those teams trying to fix this thing and trying to get just database application, simple problem like that. And then process complexity. So all of those things exist. And with NSM, all you do is say, just put me on the Santa Sam domain that lets me talk securely to every other database on the same domain, wherever they happen to be in a different cluster within the same data center or geographically somewhere else in the globe. I really don't care. And NSM basically takes care of that. So that's the simplicity that we're going after. And it's a simplicity that walks across. There are seven meshes across simple layer three problems like this across service provider use cases across a whole bunch of use cases. >>Hmm. Yeah. And it just, the simple act of moving data around you would think that we'd managed to solve that problem by now, but it turns out it's hard problem to solve and being able to connect this myriad of new services together to one why we have technologies like service mesh is changing the nature of the way we operate it. And, and as you say, putting tools in place to automate a lot of the mechanisms that go on so that we as humans don't have to do it anymore because it's just not attractive or attractable problem for the humans to deal with. And I think a lot of organizations are still wrestling with that concept of, of how they can change the way that they do things so that the humans aren't going to be able to do this. It's not actually a matter of choice. They are going to be going and having, they're going to go and do different things, new and interesting things, but they're going to be at a higher level of abstraction. And I think a lot of people are very concerned by that, that we may not have jobs anymore. No, no, no, you can't have these jobs. It is just not possible for humans to do them. We need to get you to go and do these other new jobs so that we can get on with solving these business problems. >>That's a very good problem point. And I think, uh, so prior to this role I was at Google and I ran the networking infrastructure for a while and then I ended up writing the automation and telemetry stack for running that infrastructure. And one of the things that we used to say back there was, if you are infrastructure depends on humans to scale out, then there aren't enough humans to hire. Even if you have the dollars to invest, there aren't enough humans to hire to fix that problem in a human centric way. So one of the things that we are doing at Cisco for example, is this whole push towards intent based networking. And to me that's an evolution from where SDN was to now where IBM is, because SDN has had these very specific connotations around it with said software defined separation of control and data. >>It gets into this very heated debates about what this is. To me, the answer is actually intent based networking. We did some of that back at Google as well, which is treat the entire network as a singular entity and operated in a very declarative fashion. That's what this is, regardless of whether they're built in a control data separated with all their traditional BGP networks, so we are pushing IBN in a very big way and the whole problem statement there is to your point, humans can't comprehend the complexities that arise. One one, one quick topic where we were sending telemetry data through SNMP, now we are sending telemetry data was the streaming and the amount of data that any operator receives is just through the roof. What are you going to do with it? So humans can't deal with that kind of complexity. So putting formal verification, formal models, formal closed loop automation systems with AI in place. I think that's the only way to go forward at least on large scale networks and on the other side, I think on the application side, like I said, being deep and narrow and being very selfish about the application that you're trying to connect to simplifies the problem because as an app developer I'm only concerned about this particular app and have what it connects to and that is going to attract a book from a human perspective. >>Yes. thank you so much. I think anyone that's attended this conference can definitely agree with that. There is a flood of information that no one person could keep up with. So, uh, thank you so much for joining us. We hope that, uh, your journey of network please evolve, uh, that we had comes to a successful conclusion in the near future. Absolutely. Look forward to chatting with you again soon for Justin Warren. I am Stu Miniman. Uh, stay tuned. We're going to wrap up day two, and we have a whole nother day tomorrow of our coverage here from CubeCon cloud native con 2019 in San Diego. Thank you for watching the queue.

>> Narrator: Live from Copenhagen, Denmark, it's theCUBE. Covering Nutanix.NEXT 2019 Brought to you by Nutanix. >> Welcome back everyone to theCUBE's live coverage of Nutanix .NEXT here at the Bella Center in Copenhagen, Denmark. I'm your host, Rebecca Knight, along with my co host, Stu Miniman. We're joined by two guests this segment. We have Mayur Shah. He is the Global Head, Data Center and Software Defined Everything SDx at Wipro. Thank you for coming on the show. >> Thank you. >> And Thenu Kittappa, Director GSI Sales at Nutanix. Thank you so much. >> Thank you for having me. >> So we're talking today about fluid ITs. Wipro, of course, is an Indian multinational corporation based in Bangalore. You gave us a talk yesterday here at Nutanix .NEXT. Tell our viewers a little bit about how you view fluid IT. >> Sure. So we believe that the kind of transition the industry is going through, the pressure businesses are getting in terms of having their offering aligned to the customer expectations, they're digital natives, and so and so forth have digital transformations. They are also under tremendous pressure of innovating much faster than they used to do before. And the same pressure has been put back to the IT. How IT support that kind of changes and agility, which business would need in general. We believe that now, previously we used to have a plan for five years and a roadmap and we used to forecast what kind of architecture mission may end. But now it's time for us to give that back to business. There are a lot of uncertainties and how we can handle those uncertainties that's main reason why we are thinking little out of box in terms of getting things fluid. >> Mayur, I like that comment because part of the transition used to be I bought a product and I thought about how many years did I depreciate that product for? So I want to get your, what are you seeing and how is it impacting your customers? Nutanix talks about building experiences, so are they meeting that goal? How is that helping with both what you're doing and ultimately your end customers? >> So, what we believe is as you rightly say the end user customer's experience, business agility, and their competitiveness for customers at the prime, right? So the way we are now aligning our offerings, aligning to customer needs, changing our models of measurement from SLS to business level BLS. Those are the things which we are doing for aligning to the businesses and ensuring that they benefit in terms of many of our offering are now experience-driven. So SLS and BLS are also experience-driven, so we in our virtual desk offering, we offer the customers based on the experience problem, the penalties are assigned. So we proactively manage the end user experience without them even knowing it. So those are the few examples. >> Thenu, I have to imagine this is a big piece of your job is the traditional channel used to be how do we get beyond selling boxes, selling services, consulting and everything, but the SI is more about that whole experience. >> It's actually a whole different experience. It's been a great show for us from that perspective. We have a lot of our partners starting up, giving us the support we need from the SI community. Wipro was a sponsor, so it's been great. And to be honest, that's exactly what we're trying to do with SIs here. We're taking the solution and outcome based approach. Let's talk to the customer, what their business needs are. Let's see what kind of solutions we build to fit that. It's not just Nutanix. How does Nutanix work with HPE? How does Nutanix work with the networking, SDN? Let's give them an outcome-based solution. And let's support it with the right level of experience. So essentially, just in time to market is the goal that we're trying to achieve with partners like Wipro. >> Thenu, can you give us some examples of what, the kinds of conversations that you're having and then how it influences you when you go back to your company and you go back to Nutanix and you are then in the war room trying to figure out what kind of next new architectures and designs you can provide. >> So normally when we work with customers and with GSIs, you start with the core problem of what are you trying to solve over here, right? You have a five year plan. Are you trying to grow to a certain extent? Are you looking for your VDI to cater a certain security needs or certain financial needs? And so, then, it comes down to what is the business requirement here? Is it scalability? Is it reliability? Is it security? Is it financial modeling? You might be sitting with a customer who says, this is a great option, but I don't have budget to do this. I want to transform myself to the next level of technology, but I don't have a budget. And when we have these joint customer conversations with partners like Wipro, they say, great, let's offer a solution. And here, by solution, we not only cater to the technology, but we're also looking at where you need to end up in five years, what kind of business models and commercial models we can do to support you and what are the right products we can bring to you so that you only concern yourself with the outcome. You don't care about the infrastructure stack underneath it. Let's make everything invisible for you. But they just take our invisible story to a whole different level. >> Mayur, when I think about the transformations that customers are going through, the education and training is often a big piece of that. Where does that fit in to what you're doing, what services Wipro offers, education there, and how much of it does the simplicity of Nutanix involve in that? >> It's a great questions. So what we actually, and it helps us a lot, when we bring in the complex technologies for our end customers, they also have the owners and they need to get appreciative of what we are offering. With Nutanix's simplicity it's all given. They know that things work and things work super simple. Now whatever we bring on top of that, that's where it adds a lot of value without missing too much of time for enabling our end customers, and that gives outcome. So we are, as a whole, as a solution, we are able to give that outcome confidence and experience to customers. >> So what kinds of conversations are you having at this conference, in terms of what kinds of learnings are going on? You're talking to fellow customers of Nutanix and able to say hey, what you're doing over there, maybe we could try something similar at Wipro. >> Yeah, so one good part what I've seen people are using platform for variety of use cases, variety of business applications. Now we at Wipro, we have mastered some of them, but not all of them. But we see a lot of customers speaking about how they are using massive scale for HyperCloud, for instance. They are using it for databases, applications, mission critical applications, and we feel now it's time for us to branch out into that. >> I'd actually like to add to that. All the conversations we've had is amazing with customers. You think you built a product to meet x use cases, and then the customer comes back and says, you guys did great with being on these X use cases, but guess what? I found out this X plus 1 use case, and it's perfect. And that is what we take back and say, okay, is there a market around this, which we can then commercialize and make it easy to consume? >> What would you say, so you're based in San Jose, and you've been with Nutanix for five years now. What would you say are some of the differences that you've seen from US customers versus here we are in Copenhagen, European customers, and also Indian customers? >> Oh, that's a difficult questions. You're really putting me in a difficult position here. But in general, I would, you know, our European customers look to innovation, but they also look to baked in solutions, and more tighter integration and collaboration with partners. The US customers want to be on the cutting edge of technology. They're very high risk-takers, so when you're defining a solution and a model that works for them, it's a completely different ball game in terms of how much risk they are willing to take, what price point they want to do, and then they're also very, very particular about I want Vendor A, B, and C to work together. Go make it happen. With a lot of the Indian and the Asian customers, and even our European customers, they're more SLA based. Mayur, what do you think? >> Absolutely. I think we see a clear, here in this area of Europe, they are much mature, the second and third level of outsourcing people. They are aware of SLAs, they are aware of the services. They expect a little more than what we do and we, let's say if you compare back to India and US in some time, they are the first time or second time outsourcers, but here's the difference, they clearly wonder about the outcome. >> Mayur, the announcements that we've had this week. Are there anything that you're looking to take back to your customers, or anything that either announced or some of the previews they've been giving that you're especially excited about? >> Sure. So I think there's a great timing. I was just talking last night. We are doing investments, innovation investments for three years, it's a three years plan. And exactly the synergies so well. The announcement, what we have heard here are kind of synergizing what we are doing in the road map. For example, we and the fluid IT what she told, is all about delivering those next generation future-proof architecture, leveraging those announcements. The era, we are working on databases as always, which covers the mission-critical application, and things in a much advanced way. We believe in our road map here, we calling it a service theater, which actually delivers the experience and outcome. So there are synergies they talked about insights. And we are talking about delivering those real time, predictable stuff, based on, and our vision is to give intent with everything, so you have to just define the intent and things will fall in place. So there are a lot of synergies and we definitely take back few of them, which is databases as a service, insights, IOTA, Edge, a few key things we will take from here. And of course the HyperCloud, the AWS migration. >> Well, Mayur's being very, very humble here. One of the announcements that we did make over here at the conference was Wipro has standardized with Nutanix on their virtual desk solution and we're going back to both our customers, their customers, and our field with this offering. So the virtual desk is their own IP. They've done very well in the past with virtual desk, but as they are looking to do more standardization, get in to the next generation solutions, we worked very closely with them to build a Nutanix and HPE-based stack with Centrix, to offer this as a turnkey solution, which they've already done, but with better economics and time to market. >> And do you see that as sort of the future? >> Yes. That pretty much becomes a fundamental building block based on which almost all of our other solutions are going to to get built. The next one coming up will be database as a service, similar constructs. How do you make database consumption and Ops transfer to the end user? Followed by IoT, now IoT is a real different ball game because everything is customized. A lot of customers like to go dabble in it, but at the end of the day you need to build a solution around it. >> Thenu, and actually one of the questions we've had is we look as Nutanix moves beyond just infrastructure software to some of the application software, seems that the GSIs would be a critical player for building services. >> Yes! We actually have this really funky graph, verticals, base our AoS, where do GSIs fit in. It's the solution and pulling everything together, and making it more of a customer business case based offering, as opposed to a customer piecing itself. It's becoming a big ask with G2Ks, right? They're not doing large RFPs, they're actually doing very business-based SLAs, and now the control lies with the business owners within large customers. So it fits very well with our story. >> Excellent. Well, thank you so much Thenu and Mayur. Thank you for coming on theCUBE. >> Thank you. >> Thank you, our pleasure. >> Thank you. >> Our pleasure. >> I'm Rebecca Knight for Stu Miniman. We will have more of theCUBE's live coverage of Nutanix .Next coming up in just a little bit. (upbeat electronic music)

>> Narrator: Live from San Francisco celebrating 10 years of high tech coverage it's theCUBE. Covering VMworld 2019 Brought to you by VMware and it's ecosystem partners. >> Welcome back everyone to The Cube's live coverage here in San Francisco, California for VMworld 2019. We are here in the broadcast booth. We have two sets going on all day for three days. The last day of winding down VMworld of our coverage. I'm John Furrier, my co-host Dave Vellante. Stu Miniman is holding down on the other set. But here we are going to analyze what's happened at VMworld 2019. We've assembled the top industry analysts. My co-host Dave Vellante, Peter Burris and David Floyer with Wikibon who have been in the analyst sessions in the hallways, doing briefings, digging getting all the data. Let's analyze it. Guys welcome to theCUBE, welcome back to theCUBE. Good to see you. >> Thank you. >> All right so what's the analysis. VMworld 2019. >> What's the core of it? I believe that the core of it is that they're taking their centralized and data center platform and extending it. Extending it to the edge, extending it to every aspect. Extending it to multiple clouds not just AWS but a whole number of clouds. Extending it right the way down to the edge even with ARM processor capabilities, and extending the interoperability, the hybrid nature of those offerings. And trying to establish themselves as one of the core platforms for distributed hybrid processing. >> Peter what's your take? How should the business model with Pivotal, they got security in there. What's your analysis of VMworld 2019, what's happening? >> The analysis of the show is, it's, I'd say it's interesting. It's not as strong as it could've been. But let's start here, per what David said, look, these guys made a major bet three years ago that a lot of, it was like on a knife's edge, which way is going to go. And it went the right way. And we observed last year that it went the right way not just cause it was a good idea but because Gelsinger built the team that could execute. And what I would say out of David's stuff cause I think you're a little bit, you're getting ahead a little bit on some of the edge stuff and there's still a lot of work that's got to get done but I think what users should walk away from the show with is they made a bet, it turned out to be the right bet and this is a team that can execute. And the promises that they had been making they have been realizing. And that's where I say that it's kind of what's, it's almost a weird thing because in many respects VMware could be screaming from the rooftops at this point in time that they are Switzerland with teeth. They can work with everybody but do so in a way that actually does have manifest impacts on how digital businesses work. And so I think in almost a weird way VMworld 2019 was more subdued than it could have been. The industry is still looking for that thought leader that company that's going to provide that kind of central, that kind of center piece of what's going to happen. And a lot of folks don't want it to be AWS. And it's almost like VMware could have been a little bit more forceful, a little bit stronger in how they talked about the success that they're having. >> So you're saying they're a little bit humble. They could have been louder and prouder about their accomplishments. >> Or you know, sometimes I almost wondered do they really know the tiger that they're riding right now because they're a lot of enterprises out there that are truly starting to bank on these guys and their success is being increasingly tied to VMware's success. >> Peter brings up a great point, I want to get your thoughts on this because you've been digging into the numbers. I think they actually have a great team, they got all these business units they seem to be kind of getting them into formation. It's almost as if they don't want to brag too much because they got more work to do. As you mentioned the edge. >> Peter: Yes a lot of work to do. >> And I think you laid it out perfectly in terms of what they're trying to do. I think Peter you bring the reality to it but they've still got to beaver away on some things. They got work to do. What's your take on this? >> Well, so I want to pick up on something that Peter said, so Pat said the strengths lie in the differences not the similarities. There's a lot of differences between the bets the VMware is making and the bets that Amazon is making. Now, can they both payoff, yeah they probably can but we've noted the differences. Amazon doesn't talk about multicloud. Amazon says cloud security is great. Don't say it's broken, that's a bad narrative. Amazon says that they want to be or they are the platform for developers and the future of the best infrastructure in developers company. That's what VMware wants to be. So I see those two at odds. >> Well aren't they different animals though. Amazon's in the cloud business. >> They are different animals except when it comes to the large enterprises that this year have actually put stakes in the ground about how they're going to move forward with cloud. >> John: What are those stakes? >> Well, first off they're saying, where the data goes, that's where the service needs to go. They're starting to acknowledge that the relationship between data and IP is very real. They have fully acknowledged it's going to be hybrid cloud or it's going to be multicloud and that SAAS applications are going to be still, as bet with our analysis, is going to be the dominant feature of that. And I don't mean to cut you off Dave. >> Dave: No it's all right. >> But that's where the enterprise is going. The enterprise doesn't want to spend a lot of time talking about S3 and object stored. They want to talk about how the services are going to get to the data where they want the services to be. >> John: Good point. >> I think there's one other point that we should add to that what VM's capability is, is that you don't have to migrate the applications. VMware owns those applications and the cost of migration is huge. >> Peter: If the application's in VMware. >> If the applications in VMware. So they're offering ... >> John: Which many are. >> Peter: Many are. >> Many are yes. So they're offering a lower cost way of getting to the cloud if they can execute on the capabilities of putting containers into their platform and to make it a microservices platform. So if they deliver that and maintain that continuity with their existing base that is a powerful place to come from. >> Although David, I think you'd agree with this that even in the cloud today things like microservices are not really the as is position. It's definitely ahead and it's moving forward but so VMWare can show, we can get you to that cloud experience. We may lag a little bit when it comes to containers but it's going to be a few years before containers are the default way of doing things. >> Guys Pat Gelsinger, I want to get your reaction to this cause this is, you have to add some color to this because he left it just hanging out there. His last comment was, looking forward 10 years, and look back for 10 years of theCUBE coverage, he said networking, security and Kubernetes are the three waves that you need to be on. >> Networking, security, and Kubernetes. Not networking security. >> John: No, networking as a ... Networking needs to solved, security and Kubernetes. Three waves, you got to be on those waves. What does he mean by that? What do you think he means by that? Networking in terms of on premise networking. >> Well I think that, I'll start David. But I think the first thing to note is that, and Dave and I have talked about this a lot in some of the segments we've done. The cloud was miscast as a centralization trend. What the cloud really is, is a framework for how you think about distributing data, and distributing the work that's going performed against that data closer to where it's actually required and where it's actually created and consumed. And that's really how we should be thinking about the cloud, is it's a way of distributing work and distributing data to where it needs to be. That means networking is essential because, and we're starting to hear this from large users, in many respects they're wondering how their networking strategy and their cloud strategy are going to fold in and be the same strategy. On the security front, yeah you got to have end to end but how do you put a perimeter around a cloud. That's not clear. And we're thinking about going towards data security you know, data security and zero trust security but perimeter still, stuff is still very important. There's some very new technologies and interesting technologies that are trying to bring some of that perimeter stuff to that notion. Networking, security, and the last one was Kubernetes. The thing that's interesting and I could see why Pat would say that because it's very true for VMware. >> They're betting on Kubernetes. Is that another knife edge bet? >> Well no it really isn't. See, it is, maybe you could say it is but look, a virtual machine virtualizes hardware. A container platform virtualizes the operating system. And so is it possible the containers are going to end up virtualizing VMware and what does that mean for VMware? So VMware has to reach up and be a phenomenal place for containers, otherwise the value propositions going to move up and beyond them. >> And the Kubernetes has been picked because that is an open source. It means it has the potential of being a standard across multiple clouds, and offers that ability to automate and orchestrate across in a way that no other set of software can do. It's a long way to go. He's putting a bet on it and I think it's the correct bet to do there. But it's a long way to go before you will see if that's the right bet. >> What about networking and security honestly, IoT's in there. Peter mentions these use cases that requires data. The original Cloud 1.0 definition was, I'm building it out, I'm a startup. I'm going to just build my app in the cloud and I'm not delivering, the data's in the cloud. >> Peter: And all my users are going to connect to the cloud. >> Now Cloud 2.0 is really going down what you're saying so networking becomes fundamental. >> Networking becomes fundamental not just to move data around but to move code to data as well. >> Well to your point the cloud is this massively scalable distributed system. >> That's right. It is the massively distributed, scalable distributed system and the other thing that I'd say about Kubernetes, networking and security is Kubernetes is a cluster, a way of describing or thinking about application from a clustering standpoint which is inherently networking. And so Kubernetes in many respects is describing how application networking's going to look in a few years. But the other thing that's interesting about it, is because it's virtualizing that operating system, challenges associated with distribution of code, of versions, of all that other stuff about how you handle software life cycle, with Kubernetes, it's going to be that much more cloud like in the future. And I think as we go forward it would be interesting to imagine a security model that is built on top of Kubernetes that allows you to literally take elements of containers and vary those containers in just like every 36 hours so no part of your code base is older than 36 hours. Think about how much more secure that would be than what we have today. >> I'm a big fan of Kubernetes. I think it's a great bet. I don't think it's a knife edge. I think it's pretty obvious and it's either go one way or the other. The cloud guys are either going to fork it and slow it down >> They'll fork it and slow it down but it's still going to go. >> That's job number one. Job's not done so Kubernetes doesn't run. >> Let's put it this way, John, that in 10 years 80% of software is not going to be based in Kubernetes. >> John: Guys switch topics here. >> Dave: I think that's a safe bet. >> Yeah. >> Let's switch topics. I want to get analysis on VMware as a software company. Pat mentioned Nicira, which was SDN which became software-defined data center. Obviously big moves with 5G which I think is more of a telegraph of the future. Service provider narrative. Kind of sounds like going after Cisco to me. So Cisco's value proposition, again to your point about directionally correct, VMware makes these statements. Their most product direction with a demo, they show a little directions, some clarity and then they got to fill in the blanks. That's been their move. Cisco's up and running, they have a network of devices. They have UCS, ACI. Is there a collision course with VMware and Cisco? >> Pat said on theCUBE, we've got a multi billion dollar networking business. He said in the past that Cisco's a great hardware company. We want to do to networking and storage what we did to compute. I think it's no question. And then the data from ETR, the Enterprise Technology Research guys, the guys that do the panel, show that very clearly NSX is slowly negatively impacting Cisco hardware sales. So, yes, there's absolutely no question in my mind. Having said that, when you talk to customers, and I've talked to several this week and I've asked them that question. How is NSX affecting your Cisco spend. These are Cisco customers, and they say, oh we're sticking with Cisco. We're going with ACI. because that's the majority of Cisco customers to your point David, aren't going to just migrate off and throw away their Cisco gear. It's not going to happen. >> It's the same thing. They've invested a huge amount of money in doing that. It works and as long as Cisco ... >> Who's they, Cisco? >> No the customers have invested that huge amount of money in all of that infrastructure all of that way it works and they will, as long as Cisco continues to invest and continues to invest in software as well for that platform. >> If you're advising the CEO of Cisco what would your advice be to him? Get your thinking cap on, you're coming next. Hold on I want David to go. >> He's dying to jump in. >> The core that Cisco has to manage is finding solutions to multicloud and hybrid cloud issues. There has to be an end to end. They have to provide more of the data planes, more of the control planes, and more software to enable this connectivity across these different clouds. >> Can Cisco move up the stack as fast as VMware because one's a software company one is a hardware company but it's software now. >> That is the challenge that Cisco has is putting in place the people the resources and the techniques to actually drive that. >> Your thoughts, your advising the CEO. >> So before I advise the CEO I'm going to make one quick observation about the collision course. I was trying to think about this Dave. I can't think of, just off the top of my head, I can't think of a single hardware company that was driven out of business by VMware when they virtualized systems. Maybe there were some, maybe there were some that would say, oh I'm gone because of VMware. I think it made it more productive, it probably took some of the capacity out. But at the end of the day the stuff doesn't run on hamsters right. It's an interesting question. >> Sun? >> I don't think it was VMware. >> Not directly but it certainly gave a lot of tail wind to X86 [John] Linux and Intel killed Sun. >> Right, gave a big tail wind to X86. That was a different set of trends, right. It was related, your right. >> Dave: Definitely related. >> But the point it, I'm not sure that NSX is going to drive networking companies or network hardware companies out of business. >> No I didn't say they'd drive them out of business but would you not agree that VMware made the server business a lot less interesting? >> It changed the value, it changed the degree to which the hardware itself was regarded as the asset around which the IT Organization had to create it's value proposition, it's organization it's worth closing center. VMware became much more strategic than ... >> No question about it. >> Than HP, Lenovo. And Dell servers. >> We should talk about this more. >> Right now you're advising the CEO. >> So here's my advice to the CEO of Cisco. Your networking guys are killing innovation in your company. Right now the networking guys have an absolute stranglehold on how Cisco behaves, where Cisco does. We've all encountered these really great ideas bubbling up out of Cisco and they emerge and they're there for about six weeks or eight weeks or six months and then they suddenly disappear and you go and you do the forensics on the crime that was committed and it turns out that the networking hardware guys ended up rising up and affectively launching the antibodies on every new innovation virus. >> You mean internally in Cisco? >> Dave: That's a really interesting point. >> They have a Clayton Christensen innovators dilemma problem that they got to fix. >> And Chuck Robbins I think understands this and this is why he's putting so much emphasis on DevNet. Because he see's that the DevNet opportunity to create infrastructure that's programmable is a way potentially out of that innovation lock. >> If I was advising the CEO of Cisco I would kind of take the same cultural thing. I think you're right on the money on the culture. Gelsinger has a team, you point that out that's really good insight. My advice is simple. Double down on DevNet. Turn the networking guys, by the way, who have the keys to the kingdom in every single enterprise so they're running and operating enterprise networks and data centers. The network guys are the most powerful people in the companies in IT. Turn them into active coders. That's what DevNet is doing. That is totally the right move. Change the culture within your customer base, If that's not going to work internally then you know. >> But the whole of the cloud thing has brought together storage, networking and compute as a single object, a single distributed object. And one of the things that VMware has done with NSX is reflect what AWS and ITO were doing beforehand which is lowering the cost of storage very, very significantly, and putting the functionality into software as opposed to hardware. >> If I was Cisco, I would be looking hard at doing something big with Google. Because Amazon is VMware's preferred partner. I would figure out a way to get belly up to Google and figure out something bigger. It's not going to happen with Microsoft. They don't really need Cisco. Google needs someone like Cisco. >> I'm sorry from a customer engagement standpoint? >> From a customer engagement standpoint and to help Cisco's cloud relevance. Cause right now even in the multicloud world, no one even knows. What you just said David, that's exactly what Cisco's doing and nobody even knows about it. >> That's right. >> Well they could be the backbone of the Cloud 2.0. Go back in history, coaxial cables had many computers attached to them. Then you had Cat 5, Cat 3 wiring, you had hubs. Then you had subnetworks, you had internetworking. Campus building. That became the network. Cisco is the same kind of option for cloud to be the on ramp. That's what VMware wants to do. Dell wants to be the on ramp, VMware wants to be on ramp. Cisco's running the networks ... >> And another piece for Cisco, and you've said this before Peter, is security. You talk about VMware being the cloud security company, if I were Cisco those would be fighting words. Cisco is in a strong position from it networking base to be a leader in security. >> And I think you got a good point Dave. The thing I'd say John, and you guys have all heard me say this, but I'll say it again. What killed mini computers was not just the microprocessor. It was that DEC had DECnet and DG had digital whatever it was. And along came Ethernet and along came IP and along came Cisco and it flattened all those networks. Networks want to be flat. And AWS, if you start to talk about Kubernetes, all these little proprietary tweaks to Kubernetes which fundamentally is how you think about doing a programmable network, physics and everything else, technology is going to want to flatten that stuff as much as possible. And Cisco should be participating in that and they're not because their networking guys are saying, no, no, no, nobody gets into our sales organization except us networking hardware guys. And that's a problem. >> They got to go back. When VMware went back to their roots that made them stronger. Cisco's got to go back to their networks thinking it differently, I agree with you. They could be the backbone for multicloud. That's their opportunity. >> But it's got to be a flat network to do that. They've got this entrenched North, South mentality even though they see the trends. >> Okay, final summary guys, let's wrap this up. Let's go around the horn, start with Peter. Take-away's from 2019 VMworld, our 10th year theCUBE coverage. What's your thoughts? >> The machinations, two I'd say. The organizational machinations inside Dell Technologies have got a long ways to go. There's a lot more coming as Michael figures out he wants to institutionalize all this thing. But he's got two great executives. Pat Gelsinger has turned into a pretty darn good CEO. So I'd say that VMware is seeing the market good, they've got a great team, they're executing really well. They're at least putting bets where they need to but here's, I think the biggest weakness, and this came up in one of the session in the analyst thing, we all know how VMware expects things to come to VMware and how VMware is going to be effectively the manager of record, the cloud of record for all clouds. Okay good. But it's not going to be. The reality is VMware is going to emerge as an extremely important on premise and cloud technology if that's what you want to do, that allows companies to have those options about where they put stuff. But how is VMware going to express itself to other clouds? From a management standpoint, from a control plane standpoint, from a data standpoint. That's not clear, and big enterprises are going to start pushing them pretty soon to say, okay great, but we're not just going to do you. How are you going to be managed by the stuff that we want? How are you going to be a resource where we want our management points to be. >> John: Dictate terms. >> Right. >> The customers going to dictate terms. That's a great point. David Floyer you're up. >> All right, so the biggest challenge for VMware is that is making themselves successful in the public cloud. AWS owns that business. They are very, very cost effective. They are driving very, very hard, and the clash is going to be when AWS goes into the distributed side and comes into full contact with Dell and VMware in that space. So the race is on between the efficiency that they can create for this network and the efficiency that AWS can create by getting better and better at distributed computing. They will go into multicloud, they will go into. >> John: Dave your thoughts. >> I've talked a lot this week about multicloud and what I think is real and what's BS. I've talked about VMware's acquisitions. I want to change it up a little bit. When you come to these events, the big picture of how we're changing the world and we're changing society, tech for good, all that stuff, I just want to make a point for historical context. I think it's indisputable that the first 50 years of last century from the early 1900s to 1950s were far more remarkable than the last 50 years of IT. And I think sometimes we sit out here in Silicon Valley and smoke our own, you know, whatever, >> It's legal here actually. >> And how we're changing the world. And I'm not saying we're not changing the world but Pat Gelsinger said there's never been a more important time to be a technologist. Well he may be right, and I'm not saying this to disparage the statement but I'm just, again trying to provide some historical context. You're up against telephones, planes, automobiles, the electrical grid itself. So I leave you with this question, what's more impactful from a society standpoint, and from an economics standpoint, the move from automobiles to autonomous vehicles or the move from horses to cars? And I think that as an industry we have a long way to go in terms of being the most important time to be a technologist. >> I think I agree with Gelsinger. It's the most important time to be a technologist now cause more than change is required. I think if you look at the data, I think this shows all about Cloud 2.0. I think some of the things that Peter, Dave you pointed out points right to it. Customers are dictating terms and the infrastructure's evolving and the enablement of what that system looks like is going to spin in favor of the customer. And they're going to start making those changes because to change society, it's not going to come from the vendors. That's just philanthropy. It's going to come from people building applications. I think the Cloud 2.0 equation has to fill out. >> I think you're right. If in fact this is going to be the most important time for technologists, it absolutely has to come from the buyers of technology and the people applying technology not the vendor community. No doubt. >> It's a great question though Dave. Great question. >> We're going to take that question to our power panels in the studio, Palo Alto and Boston. Of course theCUBE studios. Check it out. We are here wrapping up VMworld 2019. Want to do a shout out to VMware for allowing us to be part of their ecosystem for 10 years. It's been a great run from 2010 when we had cameras that we turned and we thought they'd work, they did. The system got better every year and that's to the generous support of our ecosystem partners who sponsored theCUBE so we can create content editorially and co-create with the sponsors for the betterment of the audiences. And thanks to that we get better equipment every year. And shout out to the great team we have here. Amazing execution. Two full sets. And thanks to my co-hosts and the teams. Stu's not here, he's on the other set. Jeff Frick who's running it all. What a great team. I want to thank VMware and the entire community for 10 years. That's a sign off for theCUBE. 10 at Vmworld 2019. Thanks for watching. (upbeat music)

>> Live from Barcelona, Spain. it's theCUBE. Covering KubeCon CloudNativeCon Europe 2019. Brought to you by Red Hat, the Cloud Native Computing Foundation and ecosystem partners. >> Welcome back to theCUBE, two days live coverage here in Barcelona, Spain at KubeCon CloudNativeCon 2019. I'm Stu Miniman. My co-host is Corey Quinn, and happy to welcome to the program first-time guest Vijoy Pandey, who's the vice president and CTO of Cloud at Cisco, and Vijoy, it's a relatively new job for you. Something we're still measuring in months. So, why don't we start there, give our audience a little bit of your background and what brought you to the Cisco Cloud team? >> Sure, so first of all thank you Stu, thank you Corey. Glad to be here. Yes, I am measuring my tenure right now in months. It was days, now it's months, soon it will be years and soon it will be forgotten, but I did come from Google. I spent a whole bunch of time there in the networking space. I actually ran their data center footprint. I also ran the ram footprint for a couple of years. And then I ended up building the automation, modeling, telemetry, data analytic stack for all of their physical infrastructure, for a while. >> Okay, so how much time do we have? Because I always put out there, I'm an networking guy by background and if you talk about just the Google network, how do we get our search results, and our ads to us globally in a short period of time. And you talk about undersea cables, I mean, Google was the example. The first time I heard about SDN and what that was going to be, oh, well lets look at what Google was doing, and when Cloud rolled out, Google's network was really second to none. Now of course, you move over to Cisco, which knows a thing or two about networking. Can you tell us some of those, I guess help connect the dots for me. We've had this premise that the hyperweb scale, what they have done, is what's bleeding into the enterprise. That's what Kubernetes is, what Google did at Boar. And from a networking standpoint, some of the things that the top 20 hyper-scale companies were doing we're now starting to see into the enterprise. Does that premise hold water for you? >> Yeah, that's correct. But what I think what you need to realize is that not everybody is hyper-scaler, not everybody is a Google. But there are concepts and there are mechanisms that Google has used and AWS and Facebook and the others have used, that are very, very relevant to large enterprises, to large service providers, and that is the opportunity. You asked me earlier, why I came and joined Cisco, and you're right, Cisco is the big behemoth in the networking space. And there is a little bit of disconnect in how the hyper-scalers have approached networking in the past couple of years, or few years. And how Cisco's customers and Cisco's global market has been approaching their customers over the past couple of decades. So trying to bridge that gap is what's exciting. And I think there are a lot of concepts that have been developed in the hyper-scalers space that do apply. For example, like you said, SDN is a big one. It simplifies how you do networking. Automation is the other big one. So we see, I've seen in the eight months I've been here, most of our customers looking for an automation platform to build at the same agility and on the same zero-offs mentality that the Googles and AWSs have done. So bringing those concepts within Cisco and giving it to our customers is where the opportunity is. >> If I go back in time, 15 years or so, and I want to start a 50-person company, there's no way I'm going to be able to effectively do that without at least one network engineer on the staff, or almost any reasonable company. Today if something starts up that's cloud-native, a lot of that starts to instead be pushed onto the networks of sort that you used to build at Google, or folks doing the similar things at AWS. Do you see that as a longer-term trend where enterprises are going to start moving in that type of direction as well? Or do you see that enterprises are always going to have specific needs that are not going to be met by the hyper-scale public clouds? >> Yeah, I think that it's probably the latter. What I see in the future is, especially, the way I look at the market, it's data driven in a different way. So wherever you have data, you have the need for compute, you have a need for the network. It comes in a variety of ways. One is just around regulations, so if you have data you need to protect, you need on-prem computes towards networking. If you need a lot of insight from your data, you need to do a lot of number crunching or data crunching. ML, AI, for all of those workloads, you need local compute, you need local network. So, depending upon where the data is, you will see computer networking follow. So in that sense, yes, there will be the need for cloud-based access for all of our enterprises, cloud based applications. But the need for on-prem will never disappear. And that's why I think making the bet on multi-cloud, making the bet on hybrid, is a critical way forward. >> All right, so, Vijoy, one of the things we see at this show, especially, is that intersection between what's happening in the enterprise and what's happening in the developer community. We've watched closely the DevNet group inside of Cisco, and that rise of, it's not just in the DevNet group but Cisco going through a lot of transformation. Heard one of the keynotes in this building a year ago, is when you think of Cisco in like 2030, it shouldn't be Cisco, the networking company, it's Cisco's a software company. And there's the platitudes out there about softwares eating the world alive, but help us give it a little insight as to what that means. Networking of course is Cisco's DNA and how most of us today still think of Cisco, but what's that journey that Cisco is going through? >> Sure. And you touched upon a couple of points there, so let me just walk through a couple of them. First of all, the reference to DevNet, it's pretty evident that everything is moving towards a developer mindset. And the network is no different. So talking about the automation bits that I mentioned earlier even at Cisco the products have been built around even physical boxes, which is the bread and butter for a large majority of out customers. We are trying to move that towards a more developer-friendly paradigm. And instead of going through SNMP or CLI, we are moving towards a very programmatic API, model-driven networks, streaming telemetry. And to do all of those things, you need a developer-centric mindset. So whereas our products are enabling APIs to do those things, there is a need for a community to ingest that API set, and that's were DevNet comes in. So just to be able to train the people who are operating the networks or building on top of out networks, you need a community that is familiar with programmability and development and the software engine principles that go with it. So that's one aspect of the statement that you mentioned earlier and that's one place where Cisco is going. Just with the switches and routers. Another aspect is in 2030 where do you see Cisco evolving towards? And like everybody else we are also going through a transformation. We are becoming cloud-native internally. So it's not just that our products are becoming cloud-native in there nature, it's also what we offer is becoming cloud-native. So the products, the way they are constructed, the way the apps are being developed are becoming cloud-native. We want to be SaaS enabled, so the company is going through a transformation of enabling SaaS on a lot of our products. So transforming Cisco to enable that business model, is also something that you see happen over the course of the next few years. And so we are internally going through how do we build these things out of microservices? How do we scale out? How do we share common code? How do we share common services? How do we stand up a platform just like the Googles and the AWSs have done? And so that's a big push inside of Cisco, as well. >> What does that look like as you go through your own transformation and how does that inform how you meet your customers? >> I didn't catch the last part. >> How does that inform how you meet your customers? As you start to gain empathy for what they're going through too, by going through it yourself. >> That's right, I think, that's exactly right. If you look at what Cisco's trying to do, it's no different than our entire customer set. You can see a whole bunch of things happening, whether whether their companies are being acquired. So lets say, Duo is a great example that we just acquired in the security space. AB Dynamics is a great example. So there's a whole bunch of companies that you acquire that are already SaaS based that are already microservices based. Then there are products that we have had internally that are going through a transformation themselves. Our IT department is going through a transformation. The way we are consuming our own products, talking about DevNet, we are actually consuming them in a very programtic way. So we are no different than all of our customers out there, most of our customers out there, if you skip the top four or five hyper-scalers that we just talked about. So how we approach this problem resinates really, really well with our customer set. And so coming up with use cases and saying that this is how we've solved the problem, these are the products that we built and we consume ourselves so we dog food our own products. For example, the Kubernetes tag that we've had, CCP, we consume it internally. We run it as SaaS product internally. Actually there are a lot of other BUs within Cisco, that consume it as part of their own product offering. So enabling that gives us a lot of credibility when we go and talk to our customers, that this is how we've gone through the journey. And in fact, we want to talk a lot more about that journey in the coming few quarters, because that'll give us the credibility in the marketplace, as well. >> All right, so Vijoy, one of the hottest topics at this show, and has been for a while, is security. And we know there is a tight connection between security and a lot of time with networking there. On the keynote this morning, you talked a little bit about Network Service Match, which is now a sandbox project under the CNCF, explain a little bit how that's helping to attack some of these key issues. >> Sure. I think the NSM is just the first step. So the Network Service Match is basically doing a couple of things. One is it is simplifying networking, so that the consumption paradigm is similar to what you see on the developer L7 layer. So if you think Istio, and how Istio is changing the game in terms of how you consume Layer 7 services, think of bringing that down to the layer to layer three layer, as well. So the way a developer would discover services at the L7 layer is the same way, we would want developers to discover networking endpoints, or networking services, or security capabilities. That's number one. So the language in which you consume needs to be simplified, whereby it becomes simple for developer to consume. The second thing that I touched upon is we don't want developers to think about switches, routers, subnets, BCP, VXLAN, VLAN. >> And they don't! >> They don't, exactly. And so how do you get hybrid and multi-cloud connectivity when you leave a Kubernetes port. Within a port it is very nice and well constructed, and you don't think about those concepts. The moment you leave the port, all of those things come in. And IPs change, subnets change, routing comes into the picture, peering endpoints come into the picture. You don't want developers to think about it and they don't want to think about it, so NSM tries to hide all of that below a shim layer and gives you a simple discovery mechanism, from point A to point B regardless of how far you're going. So that's how the other abstraction that we are bringing in. The third bit, going back to your security question, today if I look at how VNFs are constructed, these are basically cardboard boxes, like I said. They are basically you took the sheet metal, that you are building, you wrap it up in a VM and you call it a virtualized network function. You could follow the same paradigm, wrap up everything, put it in a container, and call it a container network function. We don't want that to happen. So we want to end up in a world where you want specific targeted capabilities. So if a certain application all it needs is an IPSec Tunnel and nothing else, you should be able to provide just that capability, and just basic connectivity for that application. If another application needs a lot more than that, maybe it needs a WAF, maybe it needs something more beyond that, you should be able to provide those capabilities without bringing in the other things. So just dissecting the capabilities of the networking and security space and offering them as individual capabilities which are specific to the application is where we want to be. And that's the world we want to enable. >> Perfect, my last question for you is, when I started off my career as a grumpy Unix administrator, because there's no other kind of Unix administrator that isn't grumpy, I had to learn networking in order to be halfway effective at my job. Today I think you can do the same sort of operational role without having much awareness of networks, because very often that's handled for you, they're a lot more reliable these days, in most cases, too. So you have people who are hitting senior or architect-level roles that have never really touched networking at all. It's always been working behind the scenes until it doesn't. At which point there's not awareness there among those types of people. Those developers are viewing that as part of the plumbing, it always just works. You don't question whether the water's going to come out we turn the tap on, same issue with networking. Do you find that the lack of being first and foremost in people's mind, which is incidentally is a assessment to your success, that that is going to start working against you in some ways as some people stop thinking about networking as a primary thing they need to solve for? >> So, it's and interesting point, and I think if you think about, again, my background where I came from. So at Google, we used to have this thing, that since we control the application stack end to end, we could build the infrastructure the way the applications would want them to be built. So for example, you would go to YouTube or an ML application and say, what do you want infrastructure to be? And in a utopian world they would tell you, build me this. To your point what they told us, even within Google, is, give me infinite capacity at zero latency, at zero cost and then go away. That's what developers want. They don't want to think about it, till it breaks. >> Yes. >> And so number one, building something that will give you infinite capacity at zero latency, high availability and as little cost as possible, I think there is a role for networking for a long, long, long time to come. Number one, because there are architects and products to enable that. Number two, observability. Figuring out how to bump up availability as you go on, getting into zero ops and automation, getting into AI and making sure that these things operate and run on their own, and there is very little burden on the network engineer or operator. These are all problems that a company like Cisco can bring, or solve, in this world. And so you will see Cisco just move up the stack. So it's not that these things will disappear. But, yes, there will be parts that will be plumbing, but there will be parts that Cisco will move up the stack. Getting the observability, getting SLAs in the network figured out, I think there's where, those are the places were Cisco will add value. >> All right, so Vijoy, I'll ask you to close with how you opened your keynote. Help explain network Please Evolve. >> So this, actually yes, so I think wrapping up in terms of everything that I've just said, a few things that networking needs to do is move forward into the cloud-native world, where you are building things in the same way that applications are being built today. And so the consumption model, the architecture of the application in terms of microservices, the way you would operate these networks in terms of building very specific SRE teams, those are the ways the network should be built, as well. The other thing, which is near and dear to my heart, is the need to build in a zero ops matter. You cannot have network engineers and operators muck around with the network anymore. Because they're becoming bigger, larger, and more complicated than ever before. So we need to move towards a zero ops model, and that's were I think evolution of the network should be. >> Well, Vijoy, congratulations on the progress so far, and thank you so much for joining us. >> hank you, and it was very nice to be here. >> All right, for Corey Quinn, I'm Stu Miniman. Back with more of two days of wall-to-wall coverage here at KubeCon CloudNativeCon 2019 Barcelona, Spain. Thank you for watching theCUBE. (upbeat music)

[Music] hi I'm Peter Burris and welcome to another Cube conversation from our outstanding studios in Palo Alto California got a great conversation today we're gonna be talking about some of the challenges and changes taking place in the MSP the managed service provider part of the marketplace made possible by software to find when SD Wang technologies and to do that we've got Alastair Johnson as a principal architect at nuage Networks here with us on the cube today Alastair welcome to the cube Thank You Peter it's great to be here so let's start corporate update nuage Networks what's going on well we've had a pretty good year so far a number of customers that we'll be announcing over the next few months that we've established this year in addition to the the major wins that I'm sure most of the markets familiar with over the last few years we're really seeing that in the managed services space that Sdn is gaining a lot of traction we're finding that particularly outside of North America but with increasing North American interest that enterprises are looking towards a managed SD wine service as opposed to doing it themselves going down the path of having a carrier come in and provide them with both connectivity and the service layer or looking at taking the service layer from a managed services provider and sourcing the connectivity themselves so this is an area that's especially fruitful and open for some significant innovation and innovation that's going to have enormous impact in how the market pays so let me let me run something by you so here's the observation I've made over the years that servers Moore's law meant that there was this kind of smooth growth and performance and even in software it would kind of followed Moore's law but network because of its because of the degree of interplay and natural integration amongst the components there was always this kind of weird step function where every four or five years the big telecommunications companies our managed service providers would make major investments in their networks and you got this very rough course odd step function and that sometimes scared some of these companies away from participating in all the innovation of the cloud have I got that right absolutely I mean the tradition of having both your service layer and your transport layer being coupled you know an IP Network is offering both the IP transport but also the services like MPLS VPNs or layer 2 VPNs has meant that you know the tech lifecycle became relatively long the process to qualify deploy managed and then eventually automate services and the delivery of those services took a long time Sdn has presented a really interesting opportunity for the carrier's as long along with the broader audience in the industry to really leverage software and the frequency of updates the software can give you without needing to make those hardware changes at the same time so you can still do the hardware changes but you get a smoother upward innovation curve absolutely so the underlying transport platforms the routers the DWDM systems etc those can be changed as needed to buy capacity demands or vendor changes or new technology that comes out in those spaces but we can use Sdn or in this case st wan to smooth out the service offering on the top and as it becomes a software delivered function we can upgrade that much faster and we can roll it out much more like we update our you know cell phones our tablets etc and introduce new functionality into the service layer much faster than we were able to do in the past where we had a very much a hardware coupled service offering now I made a comment that in many respects some of the big telecommunications companies some of the beginner Spees have not participated in this explosive innovation that's associated with the cloud and part of the reason is because when you think about cloud someone can say I can think of a new service and then they can create it and deploy because it's largely in software whereas a lot of the telecommunications MSP type companies go I get to give a new service but then they look around and they say oh the hardware's not ready and I don't wait for the hardware to be ready how does this notion of SD win and this software to find service layers start to alter the way that some of these big companies think about their underlying infrastructure cost structures how they think about automation how they go about competing for new services well well it's it becomes a very big competitive differentiator because you know I can be a carrier and I can offer new services much faster a we touched on I'm getting a benefit of automation very quickly because Sdn was heavily around automating the configuration in the service elements and I can become a lot more cost-effective with that you know customers are looking for more self control more self management information Diagnostics tooling etc but without the overheads of running very large IT and network specialized personnel so the carrier's get that advantage the enterprise's get that advantage everyone is getting you know effectively a much more modern service experience we saw that with the cloud I guess revolution if you want to put it that way that you know I no longer needed to order a server put it in a rack deploy an operating system put my application on it take six months that changed with the cloud everyone understands that the network layer did not change it's fast and that's where we saw Sdn and the data centers come along to address that problem that's what we're solving with sd1 as well so when we think about the relationship between big cloud players and some of these nm msps it is that we've got the big cloud pairs that are virtualizing everything the msps are still kind of physically stuck but still have the vast majority of those last miles that are so crucial to having that end and productivity and compatibility absolutely does that start to change as we start to think about new wireless technologies how does SD LAN improve the MS Pease ability to both bring new automation and bri new but also introduced some of these new technologies that will bring make it easier to think cloud last-mile in the same breath well it's an interesting point I mean you could look at an MSP that has no lost mile infrastructure at all.they or maybe reselling a carriers infrastructure or procuring a full their enterprise customers now they have the ability to actually manage the service layer and they could be using carrier a today to reach the customers location but they strike a new deal tomorrow with carry a B and they can swap that customer over effectively changing the engines on the airplane in flight the customer experience doesn't change for the enterprise they're still getting the same Sdn service but maybe they swapped from DSL to cable as a transport or they've added an MPLS service to a new site as well for greater reliability so this allows the msps and the carriers to you know get services out to the customers faster decoupling it from whatever the last mile technology may be and this where there's opportunities for wireless you know we're seeing a lot of interest from enterprises to augment with LTE and in the future 5g as a backup connectivity to their sites particularly in retail I mean I'm sure in Silicon Valley you've seen everyone here is swiping your card on a tablet well you know you don't want that tablet to be offline it needs connectivity or they're not making money so making sure you have reliable connectivity with the same experience is a big deal for these enterprises and and they're msps but it's not becomes part of a coherent solution as opposed to I'm gonna do my cloud thing and I'm gonna do my MSP thing absolutely and so that's another area where we're seeing a lot of interest I mean even if I look at what our internal IT is doing which is you know we need to make sure that the cloud is part of our LAN and we need to make sure that we can you know drop an application in our private data center but have resources in our public infrastructure also using that and the experience for me sitting at my desk down the street from here is the same regardless of where that application is being accessed from all right the last thing I want to talk to you about Alastair is this this notion I have I'm going to test something by you and see if I if I got it right and if I can if I'm anticipating some of the changes over in C so a lot of people presume that the cloud was a one-way ticket to something centralized and big and that had an enormous impact on how people think about the cloud we actually think about the cloud as a strategy in the technology for more easily and coherently distributing data and distributing function to where it needs to be on location basis and in certain respects I can look at the cloud kind of as a network programming model where the some of those hybrid cloud services are they're being introduced by some of the big cloud players now are really almost a layer 7 they're providing some structure to the developer about how to think about building hybrid distributed applications now I want to test that does that resonate with you from a networking standpoint absolutely and again that's something we see a lot of interest in a reasonable amount of demand as enterprises and their internal developers are getting their heads around that concept that the application can live anywhere whether it be on premises at the branch data center or in the cloud and that cloud as you point out can be rightly geographically distributed and being able to be the network glue that binds all of those locations together allows the developer and the IT organization supporting that developer to have you know if the effect of a single fabric regardless of where the application or the user is seamlessly connecting them and so it also suggestions there's nothing on a test with you that that that we are it makes it possible to imagine greater specialization in what those distributed services look like especially from a networking perspective which means that if MSPs and big teller codes do successfully incorporate some of these technologies improve their automate ability their ability to think about the service and then deliver the service very rapidly then we could see them actually being able to pick up a sizeable piece of this cloud business because they can introduce services that are specialized with a network strong network affinity that have that build on that heritage of distribution of function absolutely and you see that today you know the carriers are already providing a valuable service connecting the enterprises to the cloud but that goes beyond in you know an SDN 2.0 model I need to move certain applications to the branch there's some things that always need to live there and as an IT manager I need to manage that networking effectively but I have applications that I want to have that are running you know in a very public cloud you know SAS applications etc and I want to give my users the most efficient path to them but I also have my private applications that it may be running in a public environment but I want to carry that as if it was part of my internal corporate one and being able to get that the from an enterprise you know services perspective from an MSP from a carrier that can bundle all of this together that's a huge advantage and a time-saving for me yeah the one other thing I'd say is that we're actually talking some very large enterprises right now that are discovering that their customers there their customers are demanding very concrete strict and well-documented notions of the capabilities that they provide and this idea of SD wine is making it easier for them to sell services in to companies that want that digital interface that highly competent working digital interface absolutely so it's what last thing is we think about where this is going is there any technology on the horizon that you think Sdn is going to make easier to deploy or that's gonna make SD went that much more important oh that's an interesting question and I think as you know the ongoing digital transformation of business happens you know we're connectivity is more important than ever making sure it's reliable and available and that the user experience regardless of what type of site I'm visiting as a you know an enterprise employee making sure that you know my telephony works that my can access my documents that my R&D teams can span the globe that is a key requirement of today's enterprise at Nokia that's how we need to work internally and that's how we do work I travel around the world visit our offices my experience is seamless in the same and that I think is where Sdn is bringing a huge amount of automation value security in many cases and tell you some great anecdotes that we found in the Sdn world there and just the management and control layer well let's save another cube conversation to talk about those security antidotes well but this is Peterborough's we've been talking to Alastair Johnson who's a principal architect at nuage networks about the potential for SD when to increase the relevance of MSPs telecom providers in a marketplace that is being dominated by the cloud experience and how greater automation leads to improve service opportunities for a lot of customers and a lot of cloud related service providers Alastair thanks very much for being on the cube thanks Peter and once again on Peter Burris and you've been watching another cube conversation until next time [Music] you

>> Live from Seattle, Washington, it's the Cube, covering KubeCon andCloudNativeCon North America 2018. Brought to you buy Red Hat, the CloudNative computing foundation and it's ecosystem partners. (background crowd chatter) >> Okay welcome back everyone, live here in Seattle forKubeCon and CloudNativeCon. This is the Cube's coverage, I'm John Furrier with Stu Miniman. We've got two great guests, Chris Wright CTO of Red Hat, Scott Sneddon who's the senior director ofcloud at Juniper Networks, breaking down, windingdown day one of three days of coverage here. Rise of kubernetes, rise of cloudnatives, certainly impacting IT,open source communities, and developers. Guys, thanks for coming on the Cube. Appreciate it. It's good to see you. >> Yeah, good to see you. >> Welcome to the Cube. Okay, so, talk aboutthe relationship between Red Hat and Juniper. Why we're here, what are we talking about? >> Well, we're here to talkabout a combined solution. So, Red Hat's bringingkind of the software platform infrastructure piece and Juniper's bringinga networking component that ties it together.>> Yeah. >> So, we do have a fairly, well, in tech terms arelatively long history of working together. We've had a partnership for a little more than two years on sometelco Cloud initiatives around OpenStack, using the right OpenStackplatform with Contrail Juniper's contrail solutionas an SDN layer for these telco Cloud deployments. And have had a lot of successwith that partnership. A lot of large and smallto medium telco's around the world have deployed that. Earlier this year at theOpenStack summit in Vancouver, we announced an expandedpartnership to start to address some enterprise use cases. And, you know, naturallyopen shift is the lead technology that we wanted to tie in with around enterpriseadoption of cloud and some alternatives to someof the legacy platforms that are out there. >> And we were talkingearlier in the Cube here, we always get kind ofthe feel of the show, kubernetes maturing? But it kind of two worlds colliding and working together. A systems kind of view,almost like operating systems. The network systems, allkind of systems thinking. And then just apps. Okay, the old app thing. So these old legacy worldthat we all lived in kind of happening in really dynamic ways with the apps aren't thinkingabout what's below it. This is really kind of whereyou guys have a tailwind with Juniper.>> Yeah. Because you still gotto make things dynamic, you still got latency, onpremises not going away. You got IOT, so networkingplays a really big thing as software starts figuringthings out as kubernetes. Let's talk about that. Where is that value? How's it expanding? Cause clearly you stillneed to move packets from A to B.>> Yeah. Be more efficient with it. Apps going to have policy. >> The, well, I mean you've still got to, the network is always been the foundation of technology or at least for the last 20 plus years. And as cloud has been adopted, really we've seen network scale drive in different ways. The mega scalers thathave built infrastructure that we've been enabling for quite a while and have been working withthose customers as well. We've been developing a lot of simplified architecture just forthe physical plumbing to connect these things together. But what we've seen andis more and more important is, you know, it's all about the app, the app is the thing that'sgoing to consume these things. And the app developerdoesn't necessarily want to worry about IP addresses and port numbers and firewall rules and things like that, so how could we justmore simply extract that? And so, you know, we'vebeen developing automation and aimed at the networkfor quite a while, but I think more andmore it's becoming more important that theapplication can just consume that without having to directthe automation at the app. And so, you know, groupslike CloudNative foundation and a lot of the workwith kubernetes are on network policy, let's us use CloudNativeprivatives and then we can translate into the network primitives that we need to deploy to move packets, you know, IP addresses and subnets. >> And Chris, talk aboutthe multi cloud dynamic here because again, the dayof things are moving around the standardizationaround those core value propositions, youmentioned about networking and software networks, all kinds of software, you know, venations under the covers. I'm a customer, I havemultiple clouds now. This is going to be a core requirement. So you got to have a a clean integration between it. >> There's really two things. If you look at a modern application, you got your traditionalmonolithic application and as you tease itapart and into components and services, there's only one thingthat reconnects them and that's the network and so insuring that that's as easy to use as an applicationdevelopers focus is around the app and not aroundnetwork engineering is fundamental to a single cluster. And then if you have multiple clusters and you're trying to take advantage of different specialtiesin different clouds or geo replication or things like this that also require thenetwork to reconstitute those applications across thedifferent multiple clouds. If you expect your applicationengineers to become experts in networking, you're just sort ofsetting everybody up with misset expectations. >> It slows things down,requires all these other tasks you got to do. I mean it's like a rock fetch. You don't want to do it. Okay, stack a bunch of rocks, move them from there to there. I mean, this is whatthe holy grail of this infrastructure's code really is. >> Yeah.>> Yeah. I mean, that's the goal. >> Help connect the dots for us. When you look at multicloud networking obviously is a very critical component, what're your customers looking for? How does this solution goto market for your company? >> Absolute ease ofuse is top of the list. So, it can't be overly complicated. Because we're alreadybuilding complex systems, these are big distributive systems and you're adding multipleclusters and trying to connect them together. So ease of use is important. And then something that'sdynamic and reflects the current application requirements, I think is also really important. So that you don't over utilize resources in a cloud to maintainsort of a static connection that isn't actually needed at that moment. I'm sure you probably havea different perspective. >> Yeah, I mean, this isthe whole concept of SDN and network virtualization, a lot of the buzzwordsthat have been around for a few years now, is the ability to deliveron demand network services that are turned on whenthe application asks for it and are turned off when the application's done with it. We can create dynamic connectionsas applications scale. And then with a lot of thenewer things we've been doing around contrailand with Red Hat are the ability to extend thoseapplications environments with networking andsecurity into various cloud platforms. So, you know, if it's runningon top of an openstack environment or in a public cloud or, some other bare metal infrastructure, we're going to make surethat the network and security primitives are inplace when the application needs it and then get deepervisioned or pulled out when they go away. >> Being at a show like this, I don't think we need to talktoo much about open source, because that's reallycore and fundamental, but what we're doing here, but I guess, how doesthat play into customers? We've been watching the slow change in the networking world, you know, I'm a networking guy by background, used to measure changesin networks in decades and now it feels like we'removing a tiny bit faster, >> Little bit. >> What're we seeing is--? >> Well, I mean the historyof openness in networking was the ITF>> Standards. >> and IEEE and standards bodies, right? How do we interact? We're going to have ourlittle private playground and then we'll makesure to protocol layer, we can interact with each otherand we call that openness. But the new openness is open source and transparency into the platform and the ability tocontribute and participate. And so Juniper shifted a lot of our focus, I mean we still haveour own silicone and the operating system we built on our routers and switches, but we'vealso taken the contrail platform, open sourced it a few years ago, it's now called thetungsten fabric project under the Linux foundation. And we're activeparticipants in a community. And our customers really demand that. The telco's are drivingtowards an open source model, more and more enterpriseswant to be able to consume open source software with support, which is where we come in, but also be able to have an understanding of what's going on under the covers to participate if that's a possibility. But really drivinginteroperability through a different way then justa protocol interaction and a standards body. >> I can see how kubernetescan be a great fit for you guys at Juniper, clearly out of the boxyou have this kind of inter cloud, inter networking, paradigm that you're used to, right? How does the relationshipof Red Hat take it to the next level? What specifically areyou guys partnering on, where's that, what'sthat impact on customers? Can you just give a quick explanation, take a minute to explainthe Juniper Red Hat-- >> Well a lot of itcomes down to usability and ease of use, right? I mean what Red Hat's done with open shift is developed a platformleveraging kubernetes heavily, to make kubernetes easierto use with the great support model and a lot of tooling built on top of that to make thatmore easily deployable, more easily developersto develop on top of. What we're doing withcontrail is providing a supported version ofour open source project and then by tying thesethings together with some installation tools and packaging and most importantly a support model, that let's a customer have the proverbial single throat to choke. >> Have you ever hadcustomers that can run beautifully on your platform? >> Yeah yeah, and theinstallation process is seamless, it's a nob that installtime to consume contrail or some other networking stack and they can call Red Hat for support and they'll escalate toJuniper when appropriate and vice versa. And we've got all those things in place. >> I think one of the things that we have like shared vision on is, the ease of use andthen if you think about two separate systems with a plug in, there's going to be someintegration that needs to happen and we're lookingat how much automation can we do to keep thoseintegrations always functional so that ifwe need to do upgrades, we can do those together instead of abandoning one side or the other. And I think another areawhere we have shared vision is the multi cloud space where we really see the importance for our customer base toget applications deployed to the right locations. And that could be takingadvantage of different pricing structures in different clouds or it could be hardwarefeatures of functionality. Especially as we getinto edge computing and really creating a differentview of computing fabric, which isn't quite so, you know, client serveror cloud centralized, but much more distributed. >> I like how you said that Chris, earlier about how when you decomposethat monolithic app it connects with the network. That's also the other way around. Little pieces can cometogether and work with the network and then form in real time, whether it's an IOT datacoming into the data center, or pushing computdata to the edge, you got to have that network interaction. This is a real CloudNative evolution, this is the core. >> Yeah, and I think anotherpiece that we haven't touched on as much, Scott mentioned it, was the security component. >> Yeah, explain that. >> Again, with as youdecompose that application into components, you surface those components with APIs, those were internal APIswhen they're now exposed externally security really matters. And having simple policythat describes not just the connectivity topologybut who can speak to whom is pretty fundamentally important. So that you maintainsecurity posture and a risk profile that's acceptable. >> And then I think it'sreally important is, your traditionalenterprise starts to adopt these CloudNative models. You've got a securityteam there that might not necessarily be up to speed or on board. So you've got to havetooling and visualization and analytics to beable to present to them that policies are being enforced correctly and are compliant and all those things so. >> Yeah and they're tough customers too. They're not going to, they expectreally rock solid capability. >> They don't let youjust deploy a big flat network with no policy-- >> Hey what about the APIs? Service areas exposed in the IOT space. >> Yeah.>> Right. >> You got to nail it down. >> Yeah absolutely, sothat's a lot of what we're bringing to the table here, is a lot of Juniper'shistory around developing security products. >> Take a minute to explain,I want to give you some time to get a plug in for Juniper. I've been following youguys for a long time. Junos back on the old days, contrail. Juniper's has had a software, big time software view. >> Yeah. >> Explain the DNA of software at Juniper. >> You know the earlydays of Juniper were, we weren't the first networkvendor on the market. There was already somebodyon the market in the mid 90s that had a pretty solid stronghold on carrier and enterprise networking. We had to come in with a better model. Let's make the box easierto use and simpler. Let's make the interfacea little more structured and understandable. Let's make it programmable, right? I mean the first feature request for Junos was to have a CLI becausethe first interaction to it was just an API call. And that was out of the box from day one. We had to write a user interface to it just to fit in to theexisting network world in the mid 90s. And so we've alwaysbeen really proud of the Junos operating systemthat runs on our boxes. We've really been proudthat we've had this one Junos concept of a commonoperating system on every network device that we deliver. As we've started tovirtualize those network devices for NFE and things like that, it's again that same operatingsystem that we deliver. Contrail came to us through acquisition, so it's not Junos in and of itself, but still leveraging a lot of those same fundamentals around,model driven configuration management, understandableAPIs, and openness that we've always had. >> Cloud operating modelthat everyone's going to, the common operating modelfits in that unification vision that you guys have had. >> Yeah absolutely. >> And really early, by the way, was before SDN was SDN, I think that was SDN's kind of like-- >> I like to dry, I-- >> Should have called it SDN. >> Right, I described SDN as just a big distributed router andreally we've had big distributed routers for a long time. >> John, we are in Seattle, everything we're talkingabout in tech is hipster. >> Chris, great stuff. Great to have you on, Scott. Great smart commentary. CTO Red Hat, you guys are winning. Congratulations on the betsyou made at kubernetes early, >> Yeah. >> CoreOS great acquisition,great team there, and some news there aboutsome dealings out back into the C and CF, soI mean, you've got it-- >> A lot going on. >> A lot going on. And yeah, big news with that other things, I can't remember what it was, it was some big-->> Something in there. >> Something for a million dollars. >> Great news out there. Thanks for coming out, appreciate it. Good to see you.>> Good to see you. >> Alright, breakingdown day one coverage. I'm John Furrier, Stu Miniman. Day two starts tomorrow. Three days of wall towall coverage of KubeCon. And they're shutting down the hall. Be right back and see you tomorrow. Thanks for watching. (techy music)

>> Live from Orlando, Florida. It's theCUBE, covering Cisco Live 2018. Brought to you by Cisco, NetApp, and theCUBE's ecosystem partners. >> Everyone, welcome back. It's theCUBE's exclusive coverage, here in Orlando, Florida for Cisco Live 2018. I'm John Furrier with Stu Miniman. Stu, this is a wrap-up of the show. This is day three of three days of wall-to-wall coverage. And, I got to say, I'm surprised at how it's evolved, and the clarity of what's happening is coming into focus. We had a great kickoff, I thought, on day one. I thought we laid it out and kind of predicted and connected the dots on what was going to happen. But some kind of new white spaces were filled in. I want to get your thoughts on it. One, DevNet's success with the number of developers. Clearly a number success. But what's really interesting, after watching all the activity here at DevNet, talking to people in the hallways, is that DevNet is changing the face of Cisco. Because Cisco has an energy and an openness now, that's bringing the momentum and success and proven success of open store software to the networking layer, engaging and energizing the core base of the Cisco constituent, which is the customers, the network engineer, and allowing a path to cloud-native, a path to multi-cloud, and a path to innovation. I mean this is the story, in my opinion, at this event. There are some announcements, certainly, that tie into it, but the notion of what DevNet and DevNet Create are proving, besides being good execution by Susie Wee and the team, is that this is a tell sign that the programmable network is at a seminal moment where, like the iPhone was in 2007, that changed telephony, and created apps, the network is now programmable. New things are going to happen. This is, to me, the biggest story here at DevNet. >> Yeah, and John, in case somebody just listened to our wrap and hadn't heard the three days of coverage here, that number is 500,000. It was up, Chuck Robbins announced it on stage on day one here on Monday. 500,000 developers registered. By the way, Susie said we'd actually, we kept having to scrub the list and bring it down, so we had 300,000, it went down a little bit. She's like, "Are we still growing?" Now the momentum continues, so they're growing. But, you're right John, we've done two of these Cisco Lives. You and I did the Barcelona show and we did this show. And what's been crystallizing, what I learn and, in processing here that actually excites me, is I'm a networking guy, and so many waves that these technologies, remember it was like, "Oh ethernet fabrics are going to change everything", "SDN will totally revolutionize everything." I kind of looked and things and I was like, "You know, we're fixing networking problems, and how do I tie that to the business. Oh, I need to be more agile and I need to move faster." The punchline to what does it matter, this intent-based networking, which it's kind of a wonky term, but really we're building new applications, where the network is how we do that. It's built for microservices, it's this modern environment. And I have to have this DevNet ecosystem to enable it. Because it can't just be I manage my switch and I'm going and okay, I download software and I do some things over here. This is the career path for all of the people that, you know, the 25 years of CCIEs that we had, we've had this huge line next to us here, of everybody's getting their badges and they've got their area where they've got a little bit of special treatment of those CCIEs; there's an army of them and that's been Cisco's strength and can they take that army and get them ready for the new guerrilla warfare that is this modern application building and John, you know, how many times do people say, you know networking, they're just a bunch of plumbers, sitting down in there, wiring closet, they'll be left behind. >> Yeah, and this is the false narrative and that's absolutely the case. There definitely was a lull there. If you look at Cisco and what's going on in the networking world, we've talked. This is our ninth year with theCUBE, so you and I have pontificated and riffed many times about "the network's a bottleneck", and it's always the network, everything comes down to the network, which is why the network guys have always been the most powerful in companies. But here's what's happening here, the gestation period of SDN is an interesting dynamic. So here's what I think no one's yet reported. I think this is the real story. The SDN has been incubating and gestating now for what, four years, give or take, roughly? So SDN's embedded in at the network layer, the network's getting smarter. Then you've got the cloud scale happening, and you've got security issues in cyber, you've got cloud scale in the public cloud accelerating, the valuation of things, this costs this per minute. So, creating the economic kind of disruption. Then you have the Kubernetes on the scene, taking docker containers, making it a global container, it's not just docker, all containers generically as a key vehicle for wrapping around legacy. And it was Kubernetes, and now with Service Mesh on the horizon, there is a clear, visible path to the value creation. Combine that with the continuing explosion of open-source. Open-source has proven that the way to run things in the open is exactly how DevNet's doing it. So, all these things are elements that have just come together at a perfect time, and Cisco is taking advantage of it. And we were critical of Cisco at Barcelona by saying, they'd be crazy not to double down on this. I would quadruple down on it, it's proven. Not, "we own the network, you got to go through us", Blockchain, I sat in the blockchain session today. The central authority model in communities is flattening, this is the new normal. I think Cisco has lightning in a bottle here. Let's see what they do with it, Stu. I don't know what your reaction to that is, but they have an opportunity to make the network programmable, energize their base, it's just really exciting, I got to say. If I worked at Cisco, I would be all over the DevNet, the DevNet Create, get in the cloud scale, and ride that wave. >> Look, John, Cisco has been dominant in networking so long, that there's been so many waves hitting against it, said we were going to overtake Cisco. Open networking is one of those big waves. I've been to many conferences, I know a lot of the companies we've interviewed on theCUBE, many of the companies that are going to go take a chunk out of the monolith that was Cisco. Well, Cisco, you know, they're not deaf, they're listening-- >> They're disrupting themselves. >> They are disrupting themselves, and especially, you know, the line I heard for years was, you know, Cisco was the standard, it's like, oh, well, you know, they're dominating at the standards bodies and trying to push their way through. Well, they've got the customers. And they've got an ecosystem, and while they've invested in open source over the years, and we've talked to many of them, this DevNet activity has really pushed along, and is impressive. Doesn't mean that there aren't some pockets where other people are more advanced with the technology, you know, you can always have the debates as to who is more open than the others, which, you know, you and I have gone down many times, but it is impressive to see how Cisco is changing, what's here, the excitement has been palpable. And it's not just, you know, it's an infrastructure show, it's a networking show, when you and I interviewed Rowan Trollope at the Barcelona show, it's Cisco of the future is a software company, and they are making progress. If you give a little bit of a nudge as to, you know, what they didn't have, it's like, there weren't a ton of announcements, but the ones that they were, they were talking about the progress they've made, the DNA center-- >> Look, if you want to look for critiquing, I mean, you can look anywhere in anyone's life and find faults. There's plenty of things that Cisco's not advanced on, but time is on their side. They don't have to have big-doubt Istio version running on switches, that's coming down the road. They can work with Kubernetes, we saw some great demos in here. So I think time is a good friend for them right now, but they're doing all the right things, so again, it's an opportunity. The other thing I've noticed with the DevNet and the DevNet Create and all of our CUBE coverage, Stu, you know, I've been looking at theCUBE data, the SiliconANGLE, Wikibon data, and a new kind of persona personality is emerging, in, at least in our audience, that kind of is a tell sign to innovation. One, developers are kind of forming two lines of developers. Developers-- well, there's three. Classic developers, who just geek out and program. But two new personas. Business-oriented developers, who are being pulled to the front lines, who are dealing with issues like Capex, Opex, digital transformation. And we're seeing that, people who don't want to get an MBA, but they want to learn business. The other new category that I see developing here at DevNet is the entrepreneurial developer. This is the developer that has all the same attributes that someone starting a company would have. They're resourceful, they're looking at connecting the dots outside the box, they're using their creativity to identify using software to solve problems in the network. So, this is kind of interesting, because those are the ones that are going to jump on the grenades, take the chances, and they're inside the company. So this is going to be a wealth creation opportunity for the networking, because the networking is, right now, been waiting for the network to be scalable and programmable, we've been saying it for how many years. Your thoughts? >> Yeah, boy, John, you know, we lived through, I've said it many times on theCUBE. The decade of making networking work properly in a virtualized environment was kind of painful. When we look at containerization, what's happening to the cloud data space, I think networking understands the networking ecosystem, and especially Cisco, knows what they went through before, and they are attacking the space, and going at it hard to try and make sure that they, you know, get on this next wave, win some mine share, and you know, don't lose these customers. Because, John, something we've said many times is, right now, is probably the ripest time for customers to say, "You know, I've trusted and used this company for a really long time, but it's okay for me to try new things." And therefore, Cisco with its massive-- >> They got to try new things. >> Could be disrupted, if they don't try really hard. >> The customers have to try new things, Stu, that's definitely the case. Okay, let's get into some of the landscape issues. We saw a lot of startups come on, growing startups, so the question is will they be the M&A in the future of Cisco? But we had IBM on, we had NetApp on, Avi Networks, a lot of companies. We also saw Cohesity score a huge round of funding, 250 million dollars. We haven't seen a lot of venture-backed activity, here at the show, we've seen a lot of VC announcements, but you know, the big round for Cohesity crystallizes the competitive landscape. Your thoughts, you got the big players like IBM doing great with storage, Cloudify, NetApp with FlexPod, doing very well with the cloud. I mean, is the tide rising, where everyone's floating, and this is a lot of the competitive? And if so, is the scale attainable for the startups, or will they have to bought by the big players? Your thoughts. >> Well, John, to go back, we were just talking about DevNet, I actually feel like Cisco's pulling some of their ecosystem along. The storage-networking interactions isn't the most exciting thing in the world, and I spent ten years living in these environments. I mean, you know, storage-networking doesn't exactly get most people excited, but it is one of the fundamental things, it needs to make your environment work. Every time you did a bank transaction, or you know, bought a plane ticket, probably that was your storage and the networking underlied that, making that work. >> So what's your point, the ecosystem is going to grow, or? >> The ecosystem is following Cisco's lead, and getting involved in developer and cloud-native activity. So we're not just talking about boxes anymore. That wave towards software. NetApp, really nice story, as to how they fit into the multi-cloud environment. You know, they kind of rode down on the box trend, and as they really focused back on their core, which has always been software, they're making some strong moves there. You mentioned two of the vendors we had on, Cohesity and Avi Networks, both of them, part of their funding is from Cisco. So, you know, Cisco investing in some of the hot areas, you know, Cohesity, data protection-- >> Don't forget LiveAction was bought last Friday, their aperture in the market goes up, so we're seeing the partner network, really interesting dynamic. We're growing, we're going to see more people come in, what's your vision on this? >> No, the ecosystem's very dynamic. So, really good show floor here, you can feel the energy when you walk through this place and you go see what's happening. Big ecosystem, it showed. By the way, we didn't say it on the intro, but the number I heard was 26,000, which, this is a good size show. Bigger than a VN World, smaller than an AWS reinvent. But you know, really, much more, it's not-- >> It was my first time, it was my first show, at Cisco Live in North America. I got to say, I wasn't expecting the show floor to be that good. I mean, I was like, okay, Cisco, we have the vendors out there, partners, you know, a lot of people, you know, typical enterprise show. I was blown away, blown away by the energy of the future of creating value. I mean, the stories, it wasn't just people mailing it in. These real, compelling use cases of cloud scale. Not just selling boxes, Stu. >> Yeah, and John, you know, talk about community. You know, you and I both have a lot of networking DNA in our backgrounds. I love this community, it's people that, they love to collaborate, they love to share, they love to dig in. Lots of bloggers, there was a big podcasting going on. We brought some of those people on the program, and I loved, some of them are working for cool new startups. They're doing coding, they're doing developer activity. A section of this felt a lot like a KubeCon, or even, you know, some of the AWS and Google kind of mojo that we see at the cloud show. Which, I enjoyed Barcelona, but that was my critique, they're not as in that multi-cloud world. They were talking about it, but they're kind of stuck in this transition. It's not like they're fully there. Cisco still sells a lot of kit, and everybody makes money too. But we know this transition's going to take a long time. >> Chuck Robbins said at the keynote, that there'd be no cloud without networking. Networking and cloud people have a symbiotic relationship because networking people are inherently smart. You may argue, someone sitting at a desk, you know, doing networks, some of them have different personas inside that, but most of them are pretty smart, right. Networking people aren't dumbasses, generally speaking. The cloud people are innovating on the app side with the scale piece, also smart people, so when you get networking people with cloud, I just see a nice fit there, and I think, Kubernetes, and the Istio, and the service mesh, I think that's where it connects, because if you're a networking guy, using Ansible, using Python, you're going to naturally gravitate towards Kubernetes. It's the same concept. So, I'm watching that very closely, I think you and I have been talking about this at Linux Foundation, that's going to be the tell sign. If the network engineers can adopt the Kubernetes concept, and take the service mesh to the next level, that, to me, is going to be a tell sign. >> Yeah, and John, you know, we go to a lot of shows, we've got some really smart people who came on the program, we're a bit of intellectual snobs sometimes, and when we come on this program-- >> Speak for yourself, Stu. (laughs) >> No, I mean we love to talk to smart people. As I always say, John, if I'm the smartest person in the room, I'm in the wrong room. And I'm really excited, most of the time we're on theCUBE, we bring some really smart and interesting people on. >> Alright, let's wrap this up. Obviously the big story is DevNet. I think the community approach is great. Christine Heckart came on, she's the new senior executive, just started at Cisco. When we were at Barcelona, we saw her there. She saw DevNet, kind of a fresh eyes in Cisco, what impressed me about my observing her, on theCUBE and then watching her walk around was, she's fresh eyes. She's been in the industry, her eyes were lighting up. She sees DevNet, she understands. She came on and talked about network effects. Stu, our business is community-driven, theCUBE is very community-oriented with the content, we have network effects in our business. And I think she hit on something that I think is the next conversation point, is, the network effects is a technical and business dynamic and I think she's got her hands on a very successful narrative around where the value will go, and then when the engineering and the business come together to create value. I think DevNet has done the right thing with the open-source model, being welcoming, not elite. And I think that is worth noting. >> Yeah, and a lot of hard work went into reaching where we are with DevNet today. I love, we dug in with Susie, with Mandy. One of the interviews I did, John Apostolopoulos. You know, he's one of the ones in the labs inside of Cisco. So, it took, he walked me through, John, you know, the basically five years that led to this new DNA solution that we had. We of course had some great VIPs on the program, like Lynn Lucas, the CMO of Cohesity, Lee Howard, and of course, Zoginsash himself, Eric Herzog, who, both of those gentlemen, when you walked around this show, they are everywhere. They're plastered on the screen before the keynote, they're walking around and talking to them, so we love, as part of our community, to get to talk to those as well as, you know, all different aspects in our about 30 interviews we did this week. >> Well, we're looking forward to more coverage, Stu, I want to thank you for great coverage, thank the guys here, we're going to be going and covering Cisco like a blanket, we're going to hit all their events, Cisco Lives in Barcelona and the US. We'll continue, got a great thing going on here with the DevNet and the DevNet Create events, look for those. Check out thecube.net for theCUBE schedule. But I also want to put a shout-out for the sponsors, if it wasn't for sponsors, we wouldn't be able to bring the great crew here. Want to thank NetApp as the headline sponsor. NetApp's FlexPod, great stuff, check it out, those guys got a new mojo going on with cloud, and on premise really creating a software model. And also, Cisco, IBM, LiveAction, and Avi Networks. Thanks so much for that community support, that sends a signal that you're investing in the codevelopment of content, it's great stuff. >> And John, yeah, actually, Cohesity and Presidio helping round that up, John. One of the highlights of the show had to be the Ludacris party. >> Yep, Cohesity's new funding, great concert. >> 250 million dollars, it's a ludicrous round. >> (laughs) Stu Miniman with his own meme. Thanks for watching, we are here at Cisco Live, that's a wrap-up for the show here on day three, I'm John here with Stu Miniman, thanks for watching. (electronic music)

(upbeat music) >> Live from Orlando, Florida it's theCube, covering Cisco Live 2018. Brought to you by Cisco, NetApp, and theCube's Ecosystem partners. >> Hello everyone and welcome back. It's theCube's exclusive coverage here in Orlando, Florida for Cisco Live 2018. It's day three of three days of live coverage. Go to thecube.net, siliconANGLE.com, to get all of the stories. And of course, I'm here with Stu Miniman, analyst at Wikibon, my co-host for the week. Our next guest is Gary Harrison, Head of Technology Services, Metsi Technologies, welcome to theCube. Thanks for joining us. >> Thank you guys, it's good to be here. >> So, you're in the Cisco Ecosystem, so Stu and I have been talking about this all week. A couple of big trends: open, Cisco's opening up, you've got DevNet success with developers. Cloud is a new architecture, okay. Intent driven architectures are huge. Sounds like outcomes to me, so I hear a lot of these conversations about "what's the outcome?", and then building a technology. So I wanted to get your thoughts on that, from your perspective, what does that mean to you? When you hear that, intent networking, developer community, it sounds a lot like a different Cisco. >> It's a different model. It's changing, I think, the way business processors are today, and getting organizations to understand the process of capturing what they want the infrastructure intent, and their application intent look like. And then understanding how that drives different models for deploying services, as well as the operations behind it. >> You guys do a lot of stuff with customer, I want you to take a minute to explain what you guys do, your company. What are some of the things you guys get involved in? Where are you in the ecosystem? What kinds of projects are you engaging on? >> We're a company, so we're a professional services partner, we're a service only integration partner with Cisco. So it's just through, we don't resell, so we get to focus on purely customer success, and we help enable the channel and the partners directly. And the focus is the Enterprise Cloud Suite. So it's really around helping customers understand how to get the most out of those technologies, how to choose the right element of the cloud suite for the job. >> Gary, so you're in an interesting position, to watch some of the transformations going on in Cisco. We said the old way of measuring Cisco was boxes and ports, and the new way is, you know, software, to open and those things. Since you're not one of the, you know, not in a derogatory way, box sellers, you know, give us your viewpoint as to how Cisco's going through that transformation and how your customers are reacting to that. >> So it's definitely a good shift towards those softer elements of it. And we're seeing the strength of the software and the products that come out, and the capabilities, it's rapidly changing. And you're seeing the increase in the product suite recently, the number of, the move towards analytics and other software to support operational life cycles as well as just the provisioning cycles. I think a challenge for the customers is a lot of complexities introduced. A lot of the new tools out of the box out there. And the difficult question is always how to best use each particular tool to get value for the business. >> Yeah, it's one of the big questions is it used to be, I really understood my network because I built it. I racked it, stacked it, wired it, you know. Configured it in the CLI, today a lot of the pieces of the network you're managing, you don't own. They're in the cloud, they're extending beyond. How do your services and solutions help customers get their arms around this, kind of, multi-cloud world? >> It's always the focus on, I guess, is reducing that complexity. There's a lot you can do with the different software that's out there. And really, to try and step back from just the solo tools, and looking at the cloud stack as a whole, and starting small, starting simple. Identifying those early use cases that will help drive cloud adoption in an organization, and then understanding how the software and the tools benefit them to do that. You know as you say, you can't see inside the software easily. If you're going to bare the infrastructures code, you need a way to make sure that as you build that code and those processors that you keep that visibility into what that softwares meant to be doing for you. >> Gary, on that point, I want to just double down on that concept holistically. We hear that, all week we've heard from interviews, from Cisco executives as customers, that it's the systems view almost, it's not the box view. What does that mean to the customer today, and how far along are your customers in that mindset? Are they there, are they kicking the tires? 'Cause you got to engage on real frontline projects where there's outcomes involved and the plumbing's in place. Okay, so how do you get there without disrupting? Right, that's the question we hear. But so how do I get the holistic view without disrupting the business? What's your thoughts on customer's position on that? >> I think to get the holistic view, it's about the business needs I think embrace that. And understanding, though, it's about delivering applications and services now. And the infrastructures there to support that. And not focus on these infrastructure-centric models. So that's the first journey, is understanding, you know, what are the services that are important to the business, and how those services are involved. And then I think the challenge we see from the customers is actually, you know, intend to your organizational and process challenges. The technology itself is not necessarily all the complexities, it's how that aligns to the organization. And so I think those early wins and those early outcomes are a organization that's aware of those challenges. >> Like almost getting a little stepping stone, you get a little success, you know, don't take a big project. What's your take on road-mapping in that? Because that's challenging. What have you seen for success use cases that customers can take right out of the gate to get this intent thing going? What are some of the low-hanging-fruit opportunities? >> So one thing we focus on, I guess, is changing our engagement model with the customers. It's something we sort, I guess, of pride ourselves on. Is we're a lot more flexible and agile, ourselves, as a, in terms of delivering infrastructure services. So again, we try to communicate to our customers find used cases that deliver value and return on investment early. And focus on delivering that, sort of, one use case. It doesn't matter what it is in the cloud-sect, whether it's through automation of network infrastructure, orchestration of services on top of there. We pick a very clear use case and develop that first, and then once you understand how the technology's stitched together end to end, you can then start to grow that inside the organization. >> Is there any use cases that pop out that you can just point to, anecdotally, that seem to be popular? >> So there's a couple different extremes, so ACI is a massive enabler at the moment. You know, it's really, since SDN's come along it's a catalyst to drive the rest of the cloud change infrastructure. So we have some very specific use cases around automating that infrastructure. Not just what ACI does itself, but to create that automation layer on top of that. So, you know, people are deploying lots of infrastructure, so that's one of the specific use cases we see. >> Gary, I really like what you said about it's changing the engagement model, because it used to be "I'm gonna' roll out a new application, "okay, I need to figure out the plumbing." Now when I look at intent based offerings there, it's really more about I'm building new applications and the network is a critical piece of it, it actually helps me drive some of these new, you know, modern micro architectures there. You've got to, I'm sure, be talking to a little bit of a broader, you know, jobs inside the customer. How does that change your engagement? Who are the roles that you're talking to today? >> Well actually this is what we find, is tools like Cloud Sender, and for me one of it's strengths is it's fine ability to tangibly capture intent in a application blueprint. And I find that's a good way to bring organizations together, because now we have a focal point for your network and infrastructure, your platforms teams, and your application teams to come together. And it provides a common language to talk about it. And that's one of the real strengths we find to start having those conversations with those different teams within the organizations. >> Gary talk about the old way and new way. We always like to kind of break things down in a very simplistic way. And Chuck Robbins, the CEO, on stage said "that's the old way", it looked like an architecture, hey, firewall, I get that. And he's like, some people actually have this today. And he's kind of looking at the modern cloud, obviously the circle with all the different services. So kind of Cisco plug. But from your standpoint, when you talk to customers, what was the older conversations, that you could point to saying "we used to do it this way", this is what we would talk about, these are the meetings we would have, now the shift is towards this. What's the old way, and what's it transforming into, when you actually have those conversations, what is it like? >> So the big difference for the infrastructure projects, where they were projects, they're very traditional waterfall model. You work out what you want to buy, where you want to be, you put a project plan around that and deliver that. But the engagement we have today to say to people, all the importance is in the software. It's the services you're delivering on the software, and the capability to develop in the software. And that's not something out of the box. It's very difficult to say: where do I want to be in six months, or where do I want to be in a year? So again the way we encourage and the way we engage with our customers is to put a roadmap together, but to identify something in a much shorter term that you can deliver. Start delivering something, and then take a more agile approach around it, to come back, review, and re-plan again, and look at what your priorities are. >> What's the role of the solution architect on this, 'cause a lot of the things we're seeing and then we're trying to, kind of, connect the dots here. Holistic roadmaps are interesting, because you've got have to have a foundational architecture. What is the preferred kind of consistent theme you're seeing around architectural decisions? Are there table stakes, are there certain things that are always going to be in flux? How do you view the big picture on the solution architect piece of it? Is there certain things that are must-haves, weight on this? What's your reaction to that? >> I think a solution, I think it's a challenging piece. I think it's probably where you see organizations are probably weaker, is having a cloud-solution architecture function. We still see infrastructure architecture, enterprise architecture, but that solution architecture for the cloud model, I think that's actually more a challenging piece. I don't think there's any obvious answer in what, you know, for the customers we see, there's no common answer. >> That's a really hot area right now. >> Gary, one of the biggest challenges we see in multi-cloud, is no two customers are alike. >> No. >> But through the customers that you're talking to, what are some of the common stumbling blocks or hurdles for really getting, you know, full value out of their solutions that you see from customers today? >> I think it's understanding the end to end life cycle of a service. So we can do a lot with a multi-cloud capabilities, in deploying when an internal infrastructure to external. But the processes have to be the same, with security, compliance, these other aspects that come into it add a lot of complexity. And also it's not just the way the applications and the infrastructure are built, patching life cycles, you know, post-deployment of, you know, virtual images. The way people then update and maintain them and that life cycle around it. And I think it's different in a virtualized world, in a containerized world we see a lot more advancements around it, and multi-cloud is easier. I think it's for people to take their legacy applications and try and move them into a cloud-native scenario, which is a real challenge. >> Gary, pretend that I'm a friend of yours and I come to you and say "hey Gary, you know, "I'm new to this whole intent-based networking thing, what is it?", how would you describe it? What's your definition of, what is intent based networking really mean? >> There's two parts of it: one is to identify somewhere to capture what the definition of your applications and services are, and what that means, and the infrastructure that lies underneath. Say cloud centers one part of it, other organizations may have other models, but it's rather than working two traditional high level design, low level design, and we see your requirements analysis, now capturing that intent in somewhere that's both software consumable and can be software defined. You can use software to push intent in there, and you can consume it through software. And the next major bit of the puzzle is to provide that freedom to the infrastructure layers underneath so they get to decide how they implement that intent. And that's what gives you this multi-cloud freedom, you know, how we're implemented in our public cloud can be different to how we're implemented in the private cloud. The tools, the processes, the infrastructure, the software, can be different, but the outcome that's delivered is the same. >> Yeah it's interesting to show, you mentioned SDN earlier, we see a lot of activity on software defined data center, architectural things, and again, it's challenging because not everything looks the same, but it's super important. But then we hear things like Google Cloud on stage, and we hear Kubernetes, we hear ISTIO, which is a service mesh, so you start to see up the stack, the applications taking, kind of, almost a network services-like mindset. I mean, micro services are basically, have the same feel as networking, but it's more up higher in the stacks. So you've got some really interesting dynamics. You've got the SDN thing going on, and then you've got in the middle of the stack, towards the application, these cool Micro services with cloud native. This is an opportunity for network engineers. I mean, how would you describe to the audience out there the opportunity for a network engineer, or someone who's in the network game, to take advantage of that, this new trend that's coming very fast? >> It's a different model of networking. And again, the good thing about containers is they do provide this very application-centric focus. Networking is now about providing a service for the application sit on there. And Container Frameworks make that very obvious. So I'd say network engineer, it's a good place to understand that model and that ecosystem. And then see how that can be applied to what we've done in virtualization. And as SDN comes along in a more traditional private cloud infrastructure, on top of the data center infrastructure we have today, take some of those models that we learned from things like Container Frameworks and how do we apply them to virtualization. >> That's a great point about the virtualization, it's almost a roadmap to how to understand the impact and interplay between the networks. It really is. Okay final question for you is, you know, Cisco Live this year seems to be different, what's the vibe of the show, what's your, if you had to, for someone who didn't come here that's watching, say "hey, I missed it this year, "heard there's a lot of action, DevNet's got 500,000 developers", what's different about this year for Cisco Live, what's the most important story? Can you share your opinion on what's happening? >> I guess for us, being the definite village, it is about the definite zone. The buzz we're seeing, the people, the types of questions we get asked on the stand now, there's definitely a lot more interest in this development side of it. >> What's some of the questions you're getting? What are the hot topics if you stack ranked them? >> People just want to understand, you know, new trends in software, coding, you know, how can I apply my coding skills to coding the network, or where do I learn about that, and we get asked lots of questions as people pass the stands. >> Gary, thanks so much for coming on theCube, great to see you, thanks for coming on and sharing your commentary here. Appreciate it. >> Thank you very much. >> Alright, this is the live Cube cover day three here at Cisco live, I'm John Furrier, Stu Miniman, we're here breaking all the action down, we'll be back with more. Stay with us for day three coverage. We'll be right back after this short break. (upbeat music)

(upbeat music) >> Live from Orlando, Florida, it's theCUBE covering Cisco Live 2018, brought to you by Cisco, NetApp, and theCUBE's ecosystem partnership. (upbeat music) >> Hello, welcome back everyone to the live CUBE coverage here in Orlando, Florida for Cisco Live 2018. I'm John Furrier with my co-host Stu Miniman. Three days days of wall-to-wall live coverage, we have Mandy Whaley, senior director of developer experience at Cisco DevNet and Par Merat, who is the senior director of community and ecosystem for DevNet. Mandy, great to see you, CUBE alumni. Every single time we had theCUBE with DevNet team, Par, great to see you. Congratulations, first of all. >> Thank you. >> Thanks for coming on. >> Thank you, we're happy to be here. >> Congratulations, so, really kind of a proud moment for you guys, and I want to give you some mad props on the fact that you guys have built a successful developer program, DevNet and DevNet Create for Cloud Native, over a half a million registered, engaged users, of developers using it. Not just people who come to the site. >> Correct. >> Right. >> Real developers. For an infrastructure enterprise company, that's a big deal, congratulations. >> It is, thank you, thank you. We were just chatting this morning about the really early days of DevNet at Cisco Live, and the first year of DevNet Create. And it's been great to see that community grow. And see, early on we had this vision of bringing the application developers and the infrastructure engineers together, and cross-pollinating those teams, and having them learn about each other's fields, and then build these programmable infrastructure enabled apps, and that's really, that synergy is happening within the community, and it's great to see them exchanging ideas here at events like this. >> And so we love to talk about seminal moments, and obviously DevOps drove a lot of the Cloud, and Chuck Robbins, your CEO said, "Without networking, there'd be no Cloud." True statement, absolutely, but Stu and I have always talked about the role of a network engineer, and that the power that they used to have in the enterprise is still due. It used to be the top people running the networks, mission critical, obviously security, but it's not about a retraining. It's about a path, and I think what you guys have done in success is you've shown a path where it's not about pivoting and being relevant and retraining to get a new job, it's been an extension of what they already know, >> An incentive. and I think that's very refreshing, and I think that's the real discovery. >> And we've been able to grow, because I think in our foundational years, we really spent a lot of time providing the content and the skill training, and what Mandy likes to say is, "We met them where they are." So no question was too novice. Likewise, if they were a little more advanced, we could direct them and point them in that same direction. So those early years, where, Mandy, we were just reminiscing about the first DevNet-- >> Coding 101? >> Yes, exactly, she wrote it over the weekend, and we rolled that whole event out, literally, in three months. >> And what year was that, just to kind of, this is an important seminal moment. >> 2014. >> May of 2014. >> 2014. >> 2014, the seeds of we should do something, and you guys have had certifications. We're looking at CCIEs, you go back to 1993 all the way now to 2018, so it's not like you guys are new to certification and training. It's just taking the IQ of network people, and giving them some insight. So what happened in 2014? Take us through the, obviously you bootstrapped it. >> Yes. (laughs) >> What happened, what happened next? >> We did. >> Everyone's like, whoa, >> So-- >> we can't, we're not, we're staying below the stack here. >> Well, we knew there was a lot of buzz around SDN and programmability, and we both actually, I should even back up further. We were both on the DevNet team when the DevNet program was Powerpoints, so we weren't even there yet. >> Right, when we were just planning what it even could be, like the ideas of having a developer program, and like Par was saying, we knew SDN was coming. We knew Network Controllers were coming. We didn't know what they were gonna be called, we didn't know what those APIs looked like, but we said, "The network engineers are gonna need "to know how to make REST API calls. "They're gonna need to know how to operate in Python." And so we started this program building around that vision before the portfolio is where it is today. Like today, now, we have APIs across the whole portfolio, Data Center, service provider, enterprise, and then up and down from the devices, all the way to controllers, up to the analytics level. So the portfolio's really filled out, and we've been able to bring that community along with it, which has been great. >> I want to dig into the north/south, east/west and that whole, kind of the Cloud paradigm, but I got to ask you, on a personal question, although relevant to the DevNet success. Was there a moment where, actually the seminal moments of 2014, was there a moment where you were like, "Wow, this is working." and like the, you know, (laughs) pinch me moment, or was it more of, "We got to get more resources, this is not just, "this thing's flying." >> Well it's always that. That's always the challenge. >> When was the point where >> We are, >> you said, "This is actually >> We are very-- >> "the best path, it's working, double down." When was that happening? >> I mean, I think after we started teaching those very early coding coding classes, I got this, like, flood of email from people who had attended them that said, "I took this task, I automated it, "it saved my team months of work," and getting that flow of information back from the community was early signs to me, from the technical level of, there's value, this is gonna take off, and then I think we just saw that kind of grow and grow. >> Mushroom, just kept it going. >> The other thing that I heard from a network engineer, which really resonated with me, was, you were saying, the network guy or gal likes to be there and solve the problem, and they're sort of at this deep level of control. And what I heard them say about the programmability skills was that that was another tool that they added to their sort of toolbox that let them be that person in the moment, solving that problem. And they could just solve it in a new way, so hearing the network engineers say that they have adopted programmability in that fashion, that let me know that that was gonna work, I think. >> All right, so let's get into some of the meat and potatoes, because you guys have some really good announcements. We saw you have the code ecosystem that you announced at DevNet Create, which is your emerging Cloud Native worlds coming together. That's available now. >> Yes, it's fully released. >> So take a minute to, so give us the update. >> Yes, so DevNet Code Exchange is developer.cisco.com/codeexchange so you can go there, it's live, and the idea behind this was we wanted to make it easy for the community to contribute, and also to discover code written by the community. So it's on GitHub. You can go and search on GitHub, but you get back a ton of hits if you go search Cisco on GitHub, which is great, but what we wanted to have was a curated list that you can filter by product, by language. I sometimes joke that it's like Zappos for sample code cause you can go on and say, "I want black boots, "you know the two inch heel." You can say, "I want, I want code for DNA Center, "or ACI, and I want it in Python," and then see all of the repositories submitted by the community. And then the community can also share their codes. "Hey, I've been working on this project. "I'm gonna add it to Code Exchange, so that other people "can build off of it and find it." So it's really about this community contribution, which is a strategic initiative for DevNet for this year. >> Mandy, how does that tie into other networking initiatives happening in the industry? I think of OpenDaylight, a lot of stuff happening, Docker comes this week, Kubernetes, and networking's a critical piece of all of these environments. >> Yeah, so some of the projects that you'll find in Code Exchange are things that relate. So we have some really good open-source community projects around YANG models and the tooling to help you deal with YANG models. So those might be in Code Exchange, but those are also part of the OpenDaylight community, and being worked in that. So because it is all open-source, because it is freely shared, and it's really just a way to improve discoverability, we can share easily back and forth between those communities. >> The Code Exchange is designed to really help people peer-to-peer work together and reuse code, but in the classic >> Reuse code within >> open-source ethos. >> the community. Exactly. >> Okay, so Par, you have something going on with Ecosystem Exchange. >> We do. >> Okay, so it sounds like Code Exchange, ecosystem partners, matchmaking service. What is it, take a minute to explain. >> It's kinda the next level up, and what I think we have to understand is, when we've got Code Exchange and Ecosystem Exchange under the umbrella of exchange, because within our 500, half a million community of developers, where they work, what we've found is predominately at SIs, at our VARs, at our ISVs. So these are the builders, so Code Exchange will even help that persona because they can come and see what's already been built. "Is there something that can jumpstart my development?" And if there's not, then they can work with each other, right? So if I am looking for a partner, a VAR in Australia to help me roll out my application, my navigation application, which needs to know and get data from the network, I can partner through this exchange because I can go in, see everyone, and be able to make that connection digitally versus organically. And this really started, you asked earlier what was one of the pinnacle moments? Well at these DevNet Zones, what we found is that an ISV would partner and start talking to an SI or to a VAR, and they'd start doing business planning, because what this is all about is driving those business outcomes for our customer base. And we're finding more and more they're trying to work together. >> So you're enabling people to get, do some work together, but not try and be a marketplace where you're actually charging a transaction. It's really kind of a matchmaking-- >> This is all about discovery right now. >> Community-driven discovery around business. Yeah, it's interesting, a heard a story in the hallway about DevNet, cause I love to get the examples of, we love what we're doing by the way, but want to get the examples, overheard a guy saying, "We were basically "cratering a business, jumped into the DevNet program, "and turned it around," because there was deals happening. So the organic nature of the community allowed for him to get his hands dirty and leverage it, but actually build business value. >> That's exactly right. >> That's a huge, >> That's exactly right. >> at the end of the day, people love to play with code, but they're building something for business purposes or open-source projects. >> And that's what this is about. It's really transitioning from the, "I'm gonna build," to now there's business value associated with it, and that's spectacular. >> I think so much of my career you talk, the poor network administrators, like "Help, help, "I'm gonna lock myself for a month, "and I'm gonna do all this scripting," and then three months later their business comes and asks for something that, "I need to go it again," because it's not repeatable. It's what we say is that the challenge has been that undifferentiated heavy lifting that too many companies do. >> Exactly. >> Well, that's exactly it, and the interesting thing, especially around intent-based networking is that's opening up a whole new opportunity of innovation and services. And one of the things that isn't very much different with our Ecosystem Exchange is it's the whole portfolio, so we have SIs in there as well as ISVs. And most marketplaces or catalogs really look at it in a silo version. >> I have one example of kinda the two coming together that's really interesting. So, Meraki, which is the wireless network, has really great indoor location-based services you can get from the WiFi. And then there's been ISVs who have built indoor wave finding on top of it, they're really great applications. But those software companies don't necessarily know how to go install a Meraki network or sell a Meraki network to something like this. And so it's been a great way to see how some of those wave finding companies can get together with the people who actually go sell and install and admin Meraki networks, and, but come together, cause they would have a hard time finding each other otherwise. >> And the example is actually rolled out here at Cisco Live. We've, Cisco Live partnered with an ISV to embed a Cloud-based service in their app, which is navigation. So you can go into the Cisco Live app, tap on the session that you want to see. A map will come up that will navigate you from where you are here to get there, and this is, I think this is the second largest conference center in the United States, so having that map >> So you need it. >> is really important. >> I've gotten lost twice. >> We've all got the steps to prove that that is, but, yeah, and that actually brings, one of the questions I had was, is it typically some new thing, to do wireless rollouts and SD-WAN on discovery, or is it core networking, or is it kind of across the board as to when people get involved? >> It's definitely both. It's definitely both. I mean, from the Code Exchange piece, I've talked to a lot of customers this week who are saying, "We've got our core networking teams. "We want to move towards more automation. "We're trying to figure out how to get started." And so we give them all the resources to get started, like our video series and then now Code Exchange. And then I heard from some people here, they actually coded up some things and submitted it to Code Exchange while they were here because they had an idea for just a simple, quick automation piece that they needed. And they were like, "I bet somebody else "needs it too," so it was definitely in that. >> I noticed you guys also have your Cisco team I was talking to, some of the folks here have patents are being filed. So internally at Cisco, it's kind of a wind of change happening, where, >> It is exciting times. >> IoT cameras, I just saw a solution behind us here where you plug a Rasberry Pi hardware prototype to an AP, makes the camera a video. Now it looks like facial recognition, saves the metadata, never stores video, so this is kind of the new model. >> Pretty remarkable. So final question I want to ask you is, as you guys continue to build community, you're looking for feedback, the role of integrating is critical. You mentioned this Cisco example about going to market together. It used to be, "Hey, I'm an integrator of our solution, "business planning," okay, and then you gotta go to the Cisco rep, and then there's, they're dislocated. More and more it's coming together. >> It is. >> How are you guys bridging that, those two worlds? How are you tying it together? What's the plan? >> So we're, what we're finding is a lot of those partners are also sort of morphing. So they're not just one thing anymore, and so what we're doing is we're working with them, enabling them on our platforms, providing solid APIs that they can leverage, transitioning or expanding the code, the skillsets of their workers, and then we're partnering them up with our business partners and with our ISVs, and doing a lot of that matchmaking. And with Ecosystem Exchange, again, they'll now be able to take that to a digital format, so we're seeing the whole wave of the market taking them. >> So you guys see it coming. You're on that wave. >> Yes. >> All right, real quick, I know we're short on time, but I would, Mandy, if you could just talk about what Susie Wee, you're leader talked about on stage on the keynote, she mentioned DNA Center. Can you just take a quick second, describe what that is, why it's important, and impact to the community. >> Yes, so we're really excited about DNA Center platform. DNA Center is the controller, kind of at the heart of all of our new enterprise networking software. So it sits on top of the devices, and it exposes a whole library of APIs. It'll let you do Assurance, policy, get device information. It would allow you to build a kind of self-service ops models, so you could give more power to your power users to get access to network resources, on-board new devices, things like that. >> So it sets the services. >> So it's APIs, and then you can build the services on top. And part of that is also the Assurance, which Dave Geckeler showed in his keynote, which we're really excited about. So, in DevNet we've been working to build all the resources around those APIs, and we have many code samples in Code Exchange. We actually have a community contribution sprint going on right now, and that's called Code Intent with DevNet, and it's all around DNA Center. It's asking developers to take a business intent and turn it into code, and close the loop with Assurance, and submit that back to DevNet. >> That's great. It's a real business process >> We're real excited about >> improvement with code, >> that, yeah, so you're enabling that, and slinging APIs around, having fun, are you having fun? >> Definitely having fun. >> Par? >> We always have fun >> Absolutely >> on this team. >> We always have fun, yeah. >> It's a great team. >> I can say working with you guys up close has been fun to work, and congratulations. You guys have worked really hard and built a very successful, growing ecosystem of developers and partners, congratulations. >> Thank you. You guys have helped. >> Thank you. >> Thanks for supporting >> We appreciate it. theCUBE, really appreciate, this is crew of the DevNet team talking about, back in the early days, 2014, when it started, now it's booming. One of the successful developer programs in the enterprise here. Cisco's really showing the path. It's all about the community and the ecosystems, theCUBE, of course, doing our share. Broadcasting here live in Orlando at Cisco Live 2018. Stay with us for more live coverage after this short break. (upbeat music)

>> Live from Orlando, Florida, it's The Cube, covering Cisco Live 2018. Brought to you by Cisco, Net App and The Cube's ecosystem partnership. >> Welcome back, we're here live at The Cube here in Orlando, Florida, for Cisco Live 2018. I'm John Furrier, Stu Miniman have been co-hosts all week here for three days live coverage. Day one and I'm winding down. Great keynotes, CEO of Cisco laying out the next generation network and it's not just the old networking, it's a whole nother thing. Our next guest is Salman Asadullah, who is the CTO and VP in Engineering at Netnology.io. Like technology, Netnology.io, former Cisco fellow been twenty- >> Distinguished engineer. >> Distinguished engineer, sorry, fellow engineer, well you look distinguished today. So how many years have you been at Cisco? >> 22 years. >> 22 years, welcome to The Cube. Thanks for joining us. >> Thank you for the invitation. >> So I got to ask you, before I get into the company, which we were talking before we came on camera, you doing really, I think you're on the front end of a big wave we see, certainly in The Cube, but you've been at Cisco 20 years and I've been working with Cisco since the beginning of time, 1993, in some capacity or another in the industry and I've had friends that have sold companies to Cisco. There's always been a debate within Cisco's engineering organization as to how to move up the stack. One team, yes no. So there's been but now it's time. Can you add some color and reaction to that because I think that's kind of where it is now. So all those conversations, even go back 15 years ago, where in the stack should we go? What's the right time? How about some of the history of Cisco and now they're moving up the stack. >> Yeah so I think first of all just to start with, our company name is Netnology.io but our tagline is full stack system integrator because we call ourselves a full stack system integrator because we know end networking, we know Cisco but we know how to move up in the stack as well. With the APIs and the STKs and what not. So the thing what is happened when you kind of look into this from Cisco's perspective, and I was there for 22 years, I am what I am because of Cisco, like when people say in Cisco when they work in Cisco I am Cisco but I still say I am Cisco because all of our business, 70% of our business is around Cisco. But the thing is when people are in Cisco, from Cisco's perspective when they say okay we are a software company and all of that good stuff, they look at the software from a networking perspective but the world, the industry when they say software, they are kind of talking about up in the stack from the application perspective. This is what you see even in Cisco they are sort of trying to pivot and all of the requisitions which are happening is around that. That they are acquiring companies which are basically up in the stack. There are more application based companies and also they are building organically some stuff in there as well. >> What's interesting is that the trend is their friend right now because they are getting to have their cake and eat it too. They are going to have best of both worlds. The networking is becoming more and more important with something to find and then you've got Kubernetes which Google Cloud is out there on the stage today. You've got Kubernetes and containers and Service Mesh is coming on that all look like networking. It's got words like policy, QOS, I mean this is networking world moving it up the stack. What does that mean for a customer? Is that the path in your mind? >> Yeah and I'm a big believer of that. I'm a big believer of that even before leaving Cisco for last five years of Cisco, I was basically working around all of these SDN, NFE, APIs and making sure in organizations I was leading or I was part of that how do I enable our engineering force to do some of that, to gain those capabilities. This is what we are trying to mimic on a much smaller scale in our company. That the way we sort of call it we are a bunch of hybrid engineers. The people who are CCIs but they can also code as well. This is our sort of a focus because just like what you said John, five years ago or three years ago when people talked about this stuff it was only about if you are a data center, cloud these things matter. But now, if you really see all Cisco's solutions are around APIs, around STKs, around SDN and NFE concepts. So let's say if you look into Cisco enterprise solution like SDA or SDVAN it's all around that. If you look into collaboration, Spark, Intropo it's all around that. So the point is that for any network, for any engineer or any organization to get to the next level they have to go through this evolution. >> And that's scaling too then. The network's got to scale and the new software environment. >> You bet. >> So there has been a big debate in the networking world, Salman, for many years, okay I ran networks, wait I have to be a coder. Maybe there's not that skillset. Will my solution providers and my software providers and the platforms I build on take care of some of that or is the traditional role of the network dead? You're saying your company's got a hybrid role but what percentage of people that are the CCIEs and the network admins today, how many of them need to be coding, developing, working with APIs and everything in the future? >> Yeah I think the way I sort of look at it that there's some push back. There is some push back but mainly more in the younger generation. They get it, they get it because if I give you an example of our company, we have 15 to 20 people company, the last two hires we had these were fresh grads, computer science grads and what I asked them to do, first six months go get your CCNA so then they start to understand some of the basics of the networking so they can work with our senior CCI engineers who know how to write 50 lines of five tone script but they can work with the coders to get bigger things developed. >> That's the new strategy from millennials. Throw them in CIE training, get them up to speed. Okay I got to ask you the question, because I want Netnology, the company that you're the co-founder of, is small but you're doing a unique thing. You're taking and SIE approach, obviously Cisco DNA is in your blood, you in the Cisco family if you will, but you still got to work with other platforms like Amazon and what not, as you guys go out there is a trend towards automation and we're seeing that professional services, whether they are from global SIs, the trend is towards accelerating down the cycle of deployment, faster, faster, faster, it's almost like the old days was eight months to roll out an SAP deployment, now that's eight weeks, now is it going to be eight minutes. This is the trend, it requires automation, what is your vision on how this is going to pan out going forward because this is the beginning of a new kind of Cloud scale at a service level. What's your vision? >> So if you really see from the compute world guys they were already doing that stuff for the longest time and they always asked us, the networking people, how come if my CAPEX is 30% but my OPPEX is 70% when it comes to the networking because we were lacking all of those capabilities. And the reason was that all the vendors they had these closed systems but now with this whole trend of SDN, NFE, people want to have more control. Cisco, and a lot of the vendors, they have all opened up their APIs and given the SD case so now you have the capability to go and take this talk to the compute guys. Say you are ahead of the game but we are catching up as well. By using all of these different tools what we are using in our deployments day in and day out. So if I give you an example, recently we did a project for a customer which was a multi-vendor fabric, VXLAN fabric, for data center, and we automated that whole deployment using Ansible Tower. So the thing is that if you would have done that manually, my God it would have taken a long time but now you can do it in minutes. >> Sal, talk about the Devnet explosion, because obviously we've reported all day today it came out in the keynote, over half a million developers are on Devnet, Susie Wee who's heading up Devnet and now Devnet Create which is the Cloud version of Devnet. Those two worlds are coming together and you're seeing network guys, even old school folks, adopting Cloud Navis. A natural migration and the younger guys are going and get networking as you pointed out. Devnet's been popular, you're seeing some great demos here. You can get a free Meraki Switch if you can code a little bit, take it home with you and play with it. A lot of tools, a lot of APIs as you're talking about, this is the new software development environment. What are you guys doing with Devnet? Can you share some insight into some of the things that you're doing that's relevant? Things that you're kicking the tires on? What's up? >> So first of all, to start with, we do a lot of work with Cisco Devnet and we are so humbled and honored by that because we get to learn while we are working on a lot of cool stuff. Then we can go sell that to our customers. Just to kind of tell you tomorrow, Susie Wee is announcing Devnet's cord exchange you might have heard about. So we are among those few partners who have contributed to that cord exchange. So we have put our code for everybody go get it, play with it, like we couple of use cases we have shared on that cord exchange, free for everybody. Think about you have Cisco VNFs running on AWFs how would you use cisco Cloud Center to model and deploy that service on AWFs? Using the APIs and then in the back end we have done scripting using Python and Shell and Ansible. These sort of things. And also we have a booth over here at the Devnet zone partner village and we are demonstrating some of these demos over there as well. >> That's really the standard now, people are getting the scale up in multiple clouds then deploying. That seems to be the big trend, automation there. >> Oh yeah, because as I said, the way we are partnered with Cisco we are also partnering with AWS and GCP so we have close to 35 certifications in our team including 13 CCIs. >> You're a veteran at Cisco, obviously to work at Cisco that long it's very entrepreneurial inside so it's always kind of been there. It's still a big company even when you were there but not you're an entrepreneur. What's it like on the other side? >> Oh my god, I'm living someone's dream. I'm blessed to be afford to do this. It's an awesome time for us. Of course it's a little stressful. >> Heavy lift there huh? It's not easy right? >> Me being in the silicon valley and I wanted to kind of do this but I tell you I recently Cisco included me in the Cisco designated VIP, which is a very selected group of people and worldwide, so I'm one of those people and I wrote a blog about that and I said something in there that although I have left Cisco but I don't feel like I've left Cisco because I'm still you know- >> Extended family. >> Yeah extended family. >> So what's up for the company, what's next? What's you're mission? Are you hiring? What are you working on? Share some insight into what's next for you guys? What's on your road map? >> So it's the growing pains. It's the growing pains, we are growing, our work is expanding. We are basically hiring some good talent. But more exciting something that we are also building a platform. So hopefully in the next six months we are going to be releasing something around that as well. Because again, think about we are recently named as a top 10 SDN providers by Enterprise Networking Magazine, so we are focusing on three Cisco SDN solutions. SDI in data center, SDA in branch and campus, and SDVAN on the VAN side. Now think about that you have segmentation in all of these solutions. How you can simplify this whole thing. How you can map these different perimeters between these three different solutions. So we are working on some cool ideas and some product as well so that's something really exciting for us. >> Are you guys self funded? >> Until now we are all privately funded. >> Sal, I'll put the hard question to you. As a startup, congratulations by the way, we know all about startups, we started a startup ourselves, it's growing pains but it's fun. It's hard work but it's a whole different joy. What problem are you solving? When you look at hiring an engineer what's the tough problem that you guys are trying to tackle? If you could boil it down into, the full stack great mission, what's the hard problem that you guys are trying to solve? >> So we just want to further simplify the Cisco story. As a matter of fact, in some of these SDN NFE based environments, that's our goal. How we can further simplify it. We are small enough that we can tackle some of these things. >> So tackle the complexity, that's where your mission is? >> Yes. >> Salman, thanks for coming on The Cube. Great to meet you, great to have you here. Thanks for sharing your insight here on The Cube with us live here- >> Very good, I appreciate the opportunity. >> Yeah let's follow up, love what you do. I think the future is going to be changing the game on how professional services are built, deployed and leveraged. Certainly code sharing. Collaboration is the new competitive behavior. You don't have to beat the other guy to win, you can work together. This is the new normal. This is what's going on at Cisco Live. Here in The Cube we're bringing you all the content. Stay with us, we'll see you tomorrow for day two of coverage. Thanks for watching.

(upbeat music) >> Announcer: Live from Vancouver, Canada. It's theCUBE covering OpenStack Summit North America 2018. Brought to you by Red Hat, the OpenStack Foundation, and its ecosystem partners. >> Welcome back. This is theCUBE's exclusive coverage of OpenStack Summit 2018 in Vancouver. I'm Stu Miniman with my co-host John Troyer. Happy to welcome back to the program two CUBE alums. We have Alan Clark, who's the board chair of the OpenStack Foundation and in the CTO office of SUSE. >> Yep, thank you. >> Thanks for joining us again. It's been a few years. >> It's been a while, I appreciate being back. >> And Lew Tucker, the vice chair of the OpenStack Foundation and vice president and CTO of Cisco. Lew, it's been weeks. >> Exactly right. >> All right. >> I've become a regular here. >> Yeah, absolutely. So, first of all, John Furrier sent his regard. He wishes he was here, you know. John's always like come on Lew and I, everybody, we were talking about when this Kubernetes thing started and all the conferences, so it's been a pleasure for us to be here. Six years now at this show, as well as some of the remote days and other things there. It's been fun to watch the progressions of-- >> Isn't it amazing how far we've come? >> Yeah, absolutely. Here's my first question for you, Alan. On the one hand, I want you to talk about how far we've gone. But the other thing is, people, when they learn about something, whenever they first learn about it tends to fossilize in their head, this is what it is and always will be. So I think most people know that this isn't the Amazon killer or you know it's free VMware. That we talked about years ago. Bring us a little bit of that journey. >> Well, so, you know, it started with the basic compute storage and as we've watched open-source grow and adoption of open-source grow, the demands on services grow. We're in this transformation period where everything's growing and changing very rapidly. Open-source is driving that. OpenStack could not stay static. When it started, it solved a need, but the needs continued to grow and continued to change. So it's not surprising at all that OpenStack has grown and changed and will continue to grow and change. >> So Lew, it's been fascinating for me, you know. I've worked with and all these things with Cisco and various pieces for my entire career. You're here wearing the OpenStack @ Cisco shirt. And Cisco's journey really did through that to digital transformation themselves. When I talked to Rowan at Cisco Live Barcelona, the future of Cisco is as a software company. So, help set OpenStack into that kind of broader picture. >> Sure, I think one of the aspects of that is that we're seeing now it is becoming this multi-cloud world. And that we see all of our customers are running in the public cloud. They have their own private data centers. And what they're looking for is they want their whole development model and everything else to now become targeted towards that multi-cloud world. They're going to do services in the public cloud, they still have their private data center. OpenStack is a place for them to actually meet and run all their services 'cause now you can build your environment within your data center that makes it look very much like your public cloud, so your developers don't have two completely different mindsets. They have the same one, it's extracting resources on demand. And that one, we're putting on top of that other newer technology that's coming, such as Kubernetes. We've got a real consistency between those environments. >> Yeah, please Alan. >> I was going to say, it enables you to leverage your existing infrastructure so you don't want to make them, particularly those SUSE's customers, they don't want us to come in and say throw everything away, start afresh right? But at the same time, you've got to be able to embrace what's new and what's coming. We're talking about many new technologies here in OpenStack Summit today right? Containers and all sorts of stuff. A lot of those things are still very new to our customers and they're preparing for that. As Lew said, we're building that infrastructure. >> One of the things, as I'm thinking about it, some people look at, they look at codec containers and some of these pieces outside of the OpenStack project and they're like, well what's the Foundation doing? But I believe it should be framed, and please, please, I would love your insight on this, in that multi-cloud discussion because this is, it can't just be, well, this is how you build private. It needs to be, this is how you live in this multi-cloud environment. >> That's why I think, you're beginning to see us talk about open infrastructure. And this is using open-source software to use software to manage your infrastructure and build it out instead of configuration, cabling, having guys going out, plugging in, unplugging network ports and whatever. We want software and automations to do all that, so OpenStack is one of the cloud platforms. But these other projects are now coming into the Foundation, which also expand that notion of open infrastructure, and that's why we're seeing these projects expand. >> Lew's exactly right and it goes beyond that. Back in 2017, early 2017, we recognized, as a board, that it's not going to be just about the projects within OpenStack. We have to embrace our adjacent communities and embrace those technologies. So that's why you're hearing a lot about Kubernetes and containers and networking and all sorts of projects that are not necessarily being done within OpenStack but you're seeing how we're collaborating with all those other communities. >> And codec is a perfect example of that. Codec containers came out of those clear containers. It's now combining the best of both worlds, 'cause now you get the speed of containers bringing up, but you get the security and isolation of virtual machines. That's important in the OpenStack community, in our world, because that's what we want out of our clouds. >> Well you both have just mentioned community a few times. I saw one thing coming in to this conference, I'm so impressed by the prominence of community. It's up on stage from the first minutes of the first keynote. People, the call to action, the pleas, for the folks, some of us have been here years and years, for the new folks, please come meet us right? That's really inviting, it's very clear that this is a community. >> Yeah I was surprised, actually, 'cause we saw it when we were asked when up on stage how many people were here for the first time? More than half the audience raised their hand. >> Alan: I was surprised by that as well. >> That was the real surprise. And at the same time, we're seeing, increasingly, users of OpenStack coming in as opposed the people who are in core projects. We're seeing Progressive insurance coming in. We're seeing Adobe Marketing Cloud having over 100,000 cores running OpenStack. That's in addition to what we've had with Walmart and others so the real users are coming. So our communities, not just the developers but the users of OpenStack and the operators. >> That's always an interesting intention for an open-source project right. You have the open-source contributors, and then you have the users and operators. But here at the show right? All of these different technology tracks. Part of community is identity. And so, as the technical work has been split-off, and is actually at another event, these are the users. But it does, with all these other technology conversations, I wonder what the core identity of, I'm an OpenStack member, like what does that end up meaning in a world of open infrastructure? if the projects, if the OpenStack itself is more mature, and as we get up the letters of the alphabet towards Z, How do you all want to steer what it means to be a member of the OpenStack community. >> We met on Sunday as a joint leadership. So we had, it wasn't just a board meeting, it was a meeting with the technical committee, it was a meeting with the user committee. So we're very much pushing to make sure we have those high interactions, that the use cases are getting translated into requirements and getting translated into blueprints and so forth. We're working very, very hard to make sure we have that communication open. And I think one of the things that sets the OpenStack community apart is what we call our Four Opens. We base everything on our Four Opens and one of those is communication, transparency and communication. And that's what people are finding enticing. And one of the big reasons is I think they're coming to OpenStack to do that innovation and collaboration. >> We've seen the same thing with Linux, for example. Linux is no longer just the operating system when people think about the Linux community. Linux community is the operating system and then all of these other projects associated with them. That's the same thing that we're seeing with OpenStack. That's why we're continuing to see, wherever there's a need as people are deploying OpenStack and operating it and running it, all of these other open-source components are coming into it because that's what they really were running, that conglomerate of projects around it. >> Certainly, the hype cycle, and maybe Linux went through it's own hype cycle, back in the day and I'm from Silicon Valley. I think the hype cycle outside the community and what's actually happening on the ground here actually are meshed quite well. What I saw this week, like you said, real users, big users, infrastructure built into every bank, transport, telecom in the world. That's a global necessary part of the infrastructure of our planet. So outside of investment, things like that-- >> Well I hope you can help us get the message out. Because that is, a major thing that we see and we experience the conf, people who are not here. They still, then maybe look at OpenStack the way it was, maybe, four years ago, and it was difficult to deploy, and people were struggling with it, and there was a lot of innovation happening at a very, very fast rate. Well now, it's proven, it's sort of industrial grade, it's being deployed at a very large scale across many, many industries. >> Well it's interesting. Remember, Lew, when we were talking about ethernet fabrics. We would talk about some of SDN and some of these big things. Well, look sometimes these things are over-hyped. It's like, well, there's a certain class of the market who absolutely needs this. If I'm at Telco, and I sat here a couple of years ago, and was like, okay, is it 20 or 50 companies in the world that it is going to be absolutely majorly transformative for them and that's hugely important. If I'm a mid-sized enterprise, I'm still not sure how much I'm caring about what's happening here, no offense, I'd love to hear some points there. But what it is and what it isn't with targets, absolutely, there are massive, massive clouds. Go to China, absolutely. You hear a lot about OpenStack here. Coming across the US, I don't hear a lot about it. We've known that for years. But I've talked to cloud provider in Australia, we've talked to Europeans that the @mail who's the provider for emails for certain providers around the world. It's kind of like okay, what part of the market and how do we make sure we target that because otherwise, it's this megaphone of yeah, OpenStack, well I'm not sure that was for me. >> So, yeah, what's your thought? >> We're seeing a lot of huge variety of implementations, users that are deploying OpenStack. And yeah we always think about the great big ones right? I love CERN, we love the Walmarts. We love China Mobiles, because they're huge, great examples. But I have to say we're actually seeing a whole range of deployments. They don't get the visibility 'cause they're small. Everybody goes, oh you're running on three machines or 10 machines, okay, right? Talk to me when you're the size of CERN. But that's not the case, we're seeing this whole range of deployments. They probably don't get much visibility, but they're just as important. So there's tons of use cases out there. There's tons of use cases published out there and we're seeing it. >> One of the interesting use cases with a different scale has been that edge discussion. I need a very small-- >> In fact that's a very pointed example, because they've had a ton of discussion because of that variety of needs. You get the telcos with their large-scale needs, but you've also got, you know, everybody else. >> It's OpenStack sitting at the bottom of a telephone pole. On a little blade with something embedded. >> In a retail store. >> It's in a retail store. >> Or in a coffee shop. >> Yeah. >> So this is really where we recognizing over and over again we go through these transitions that it used to be, even the fixed devices out of the edge. To change that, you have to replace that device. Instead, we want automation and we want software to do it. That's why OpenStack, moving to the edge, where it's a smaller device, much more capability, but it still computes storage and networking. And you want to have virtualized applications there so you can upgrade that, you can add new services without sending a truck out to replace that. >> Moving forward, do we expect to see more interaction between the Foundation itself and other foundations and open-source projects? And what might that look like? >> It depends on the community. It really does, we definitely have communications from at the board level from board-to-board between adjacent communities. It happens at the grassroots level, from, what we call SIGs or work groups with SIGs and work groups from those adjacent communities. >> I happen to sit on three boards, which is the OpenStack board the CNCF board, Cloud Foundry. And so what we're also seeing, though, now. For example, running Kubernetes, we just have now the cloud provider, which, OpenStack, being a cloud provider for Kubernetes similar in the open way that Amazon had the cloud provider for Kubernetes or Google is the cloud provider. So that now we're seeing the communities working together 'cause that's what our customers want. >> And now it's all driven by SIGs. >> The special interest groups, both sides getting together and saying, how do we make this happen? >> How do we make this happen? >> All right. One of the things you look at, there's a lot going on at the show. There's the OpenDev activity, there's a container track, there's an edge track. Sometimes, you know, where it gets a little unfocused, it's like let's talk about all the adjacencies, wait what about the core? I'd love to get your final takeaways, key things you've seen at the show, takeaways you want people to have when they think about OpenStack the show and OpenStack the Foundation. >> From my point of view it actually is back to where we started the conversation, is these users that are now coming out and saying, "I've been running OpenStack for the last three years, "now we're up to 100,000 or 200,000 cores." That shows the real adoption and those are the new operators. You don't think of Walmart or Progressive as being a service provider but they're delivering their service through the internet and they need a cloud platform in which to do that. So that's one part that I find particularly exciting. >> I totally agree with Lew. The one piece I would add is I think we've proven that it's the right infrastructure for the technology of the future, right? That's why we're able to have these additional discussions around edge and additional container technologies and Zuul with containers testing and deployment. It fits right in, so it's not a distraction. It's an addition to our infrastructure. >> I think the idea around, and that's why we actually broke up into these different tracks and had different keynotes around containers and around edge because those are primary use cases now. Two years ago when I think we were talking here, and like NFV and all the telcos were, and now that has succeeded because almost all the NFV deployments now are based on OpenStack. Now we're seeing it go to containers and edge, which are more application specific deployments. >> I'd love for you to connect the dots for us from the NFV stuff we were talking about a couple of years ago to the breadth of edge. There is no edge, it depends on who you are as to what the edge is, kind of like cloud was a few years ago. >> I mean, we actually have a white paper. If you go to OpenStack.org or just Google OpenStack edge white paper, I think you'll see that there are a variety of cases that are from manufacturing, retail, telco, I saw even space, remote driving vehicles and everything else like that. It's where latency really matters. So that we know that cloud computing is the fastest way to deploy and maintain, upgrade new applications, virtualize applications on a cloud. It's unfortunately too far away from many the places that have much more real-time characteristics. So if you're under 40 milliseconds or whatever, or you want to get something done in a VR environment or whatever, under five milliseconds, you can't go back to the cloud. It also, if you have an application, for example, a security monitoring application, whatever. 99% of the time, the video frames are the same and they're not interesting, don't push all that information back into the central cloud. Process it locally, now when you see frames that are changing, or whatever, you only use the bandwidth and the storage in the central cloud. So we're seeing this relationship between what do you want computed at the edge and how much computing can you do as we get more powerful there and then what do you want back in the centralized data centers. >> Daniel: While you simplify the management. >> Exactly right. >> Orchestration, policy. >> But you still need the automation, you need it to be virtualized, you need it to be managed in that way, so you can upgrade it. >> Alan Clark, Lew Tucker, always a pleasure to catch up. >> Thank you, yeah, >> Thank you so much for joining us. >> It's good to be here. >> John Troyer and I will be back with lots more coverage from OpenStack Summit 2018 here in Vancouver. Thanks for watching theCUBE. (upbeat music)

live from Vancouver Canada it's the cube OpenStack summit North America 2018 brought to you by Red Hat the OpenStack foundation and its ecosystem partners welcome back I'm Stu minimun here at the OpenStack summit 2018 in Vancouver with my co-host John Troyer happy to welcome to the program a first-time guest Charles Ferlin who's the vice president of business development at nuage networks thanks for joining us thank you for having me all right so the OpenStack show we're always talking about the maturity of it where customers are going with it you're in business development so what one of the one of the things we were discussing from the keynote this morning is the telcos and the service providers and who's doing what and you know who makes up that environment so it gives us your free point what you're seeing as to you know where some of the real action is in this in this marketplace fair enough we've been talking about nav for example for many years as you know but I would say probably since the second half of 2016 that we've started to see some significant large deployment and the service provider service provider paying attention to building up a telco cloud to host their VN nav applications right so so really from the second half of 26 16 2017 we've seen massive deployments of OpenStack with a service provider and a lot of them to host applications to serve their branch office customers yeah that's that's an another motivation for them to deploy this yes so Charles you know we've talked to the 18 t Verizon you know Deutsche Telekom's up there all these big ones but I look at it and say is this an opportunity of 20 global you know you know you know telcos or is do we go down to some of the MSP CSPs however you want to call those service providers a regional one you know they're some of the regional ones that maybe aren't as much telcos or are they where's that line what do you see is kind of the TAM if you will for this space obviously the large service provider will have a piece there but we see a lot of regional customer consuming services from a local provider right they do have either for language reasons for regulation and in governance so we see a lot of them consuming services from a local service provider so an openstack sort of became the building block of these and if the infrastructure for the service provider yeah it's interesting we actually just had a infrastructure as a service company from Australia okay on and I said you know you look at their website it doesn't say OpenStack anywhere they provide cloud offerings so it's one of the things there's all these telcos and service fighters that use it but it's not like they're like we're your preferred distribution of OpenStack it's just part of the plumbing underneath the use cases that that are address buh-bye OpenStack and served by OpenStack really fits well and a lot of the telco space right now yeah so we've seen a lot of growth for virtual private cloud we see a lot of growth for a dynamically deploying application having application residing in the data center or moving closer to the users at the edge for example and these are sort of the use cases that nuage and OpenStack address pretty well well that's an interesting pivot point right I understand as an enterprise technologist why software-defined networking is important right it's important in your stack it's got to be important inside of an open OpenStack but can you talk a little bit about some of these use cases like I hadn't really thought about SD win and how that that really and what architectures and deployments would really kind of mean that they would need to deploy that with some and that's a good point because really NT as the win served as the catalyst for the service providers who start paying attention to deploying an NFV infrastructure before that there was an interest it was a motivation however SD wins be offered of dynamic flexible agile branch office connectivity that allows them to dynamically insert value-added services so yes as the one provided connectivity between the branch office but really where is the service provider are going after is offering Application Firewall DDoS services or URL filtering in all of these applications residing in the data center and all of a sudden as I hold on I cannot have it as the one solution disjoint from my data center OpenStack deployment and this is where the nuage actually served as a connecting to both environment but also this is what served as a catalyst the sd1 deployment sort of a catalyst for for them to start deploying a dynamic infrastructure in today's yes so Charles just on the SD way in piece itself we've seen a lot of activity that bunch of acquisitions in that market what what differentiates nuage in in this space well fair enough we've seen these acquisition as a complement to the strategy that we have taken over the past five years paying off we are from the get-go started to have an end-to-end as the in solution so it's not just about connecting branch office together it's not about just connecting application in the data center it's actually connecting the users in the branch office with the applications in the data center or in the public cloud and what differentiate us the most is that we have the exact same platform the same as the n solution and 2n to connect branch office programming branch routers or programming virtual switches in the data center or bare metal physical service so that is perhaps new our single most biggest differentiator is the capability to have that single policy that singled as the n framework from the users and branch to the data center or public cloud alright you've mentioned bare metal I remember it was funny when the project came out for bare metal of course it's called ironic because most people can't win OpenStack started it was it's a good name in that it was virtualized environment of course today we've got containers starting to go up the stack with kubernetes so we understand why bare metals there what are you seeing in that space and and what what kind of what do you hear from your customers so we we have a lot of traction with ironic actually it's ironic but we do and we did that actually in open Saxony in November we did a Coe presentation with Fujitsu who deployed our k5 infrastructure using nagy networks and ironic integration to roll out on top of that is flexible you can put a platform as a service they can do whatever they want on top of it but the bare amount of provisioning is somewhere we is a we have a couple of large accounts that they have deployed this globally yeah okay are you working with the cotta containers that they have here and whether you are not would love to hear kind of the security story when we talk things everything for bare metal in containers and what you're doing with OpenStack and that's that's perhaps the other the biggest differentiator we have is because we're able to have the single networking policies from a container to or programming the network of a container or a KVM VM or hyper-v or the we have the symbol their single as the end platform and we're able we see all the therefore we see all the traffic in the data pack and we're able to index this into a elasticsearch database right and and in creating an index and set a lot of users to create some thresholds and that is what is perhaps the newest thing at knowledge is the capability now to say hey once those thresholds or cross why don't we reprogram the network dynamically so near realtor in real near-real-time we're actually able to take an action to reprogram the network based on some live feed that's what can information that we're receiving from the the various element that we have program either in the branch office or in a container level okay so today cotta containers is not something you're involved with or I didn't quite that cotta containers from the new high-level project from the the OpenStack foundation I don't know right now but but your customers are using container technology docker and various others we have an integration with kubernetes so we provide CNI they're absolutely involved there and this is how a lot of our customers are using us right now and the customers we're talking about these would often be service providers is that is that correct in the context of containers and kubernetes it would mainly be on the enterprise okay out of an agile type of development where they want to have a there's a lot of developer and they want to have the networking program and the same life cycle as the application project is rolling out and having the micro segmentation meaning that we are able to isolate each one of the project from one another so in if one gets contaminated the other one doesn't and so this is where a lot of the kubernetes and deployment has been on the on the large enterprise okay that makes sense because I'm trying to as a as a person outside the telecom industry but but following kind of the enterprise and OpenStack it's interesting to see this vision of the service providers who are not dumb pipes certainly but through OpenStack and these these the nfe and the services they are able to provision with folks like nuage you know able to provide services so just trying to figure out where the line you know maybe you could draw us a picture of you know what what the modern service provider will be able to provide versus what's still left then for the at the enterprise level depending on which market size analysis analyst you're looking at you know is depends VPN connectivity will be it it varies between two to six to eight to twelve it's a relatively contained small market compared to the applicator to manage applications right manage security that's tenfold that that market race so really as you said the the objective here if the service provider is not to to become a dumb virtual pipe and the ability to dynamically insert some value-added services over the top and this is what having an agile as the when now gives them the capability to say hold on a second I can now start serving a value-added application because my dynamic network is available now and this is this is what is fueling a lot of the OpenStack deployment right now in the datacenter yeah Charles one of discussions we've been looking at the last couple of years is there's OpenStack and then there's containers and kubernetes everything how do you see those go together what are you hearing from customers general discussion here but I'd love to hear some real-world so yeah in the context of ironic as we just mentioned a lot of the time the bare metal servers are actually deployed using OpenStack and what goes on top of it is actually kubernetes right and this is very common and it gives that isolation or its deploying a virtual machine running a pass platform in there right so so actually we do see the OpenStack to be used often to deploy the the infrastructure and program and provision I should say the infrastructure and whatever goes on top it could be kubernetes and work just a very nicely Charles you've been involved with OpenStack for many years I had this is how many OpenStack summits well probably eight and a weight or more yeah how are you seeing the OpenStack community evolved what do you I know you've just arrived which day one here at this summit you know beautiful Vancouver but in terms of the energy of the community the the people who are here it's a little bit smaller this year but it you know we've got people here are actual users and actual deployers so exactly yeah thoughts there so this is perhaps the well we went through a marketing height which is great however what I would say regardless of the event today in general the OpenStack community is a lot more mature it's a lot more stable as well and in the product and the product the technology at the community is more focused around solving real use cases and real problem couple years ago there was a lot of interest a lot of hype you know but it would have solve world world hunger as well right now I think it's very pointed very precise and I'm actually new I was quite proud to be participating in contributing in that community because we're starting to see the technology really addressing key key problems here all right Charles last thing I wanted to ask is the network sits in a very special place when you talk about really the multi cloud world that customers are talking about what are you seeing when it comes to that environment you know how do customers figure out where they put their applications are they moving you know things or is it just kind of a heterogeneous but still complicated world they're still figuring out that's right I mean that it's a very dynamic environment but I would say if I had to draw a conclusion most of the customers are deploying the application on-premise they like to have either for storage either for some of the governance they do I like to have applications on-premise however the multi cloud scenario is often used in large banks to compute or a large organization to compute on a burst capability right the capability to say hey I need to have X compute power available for X time is very appealing for them and this is how most of the deployment of nuage are used right now is having doing the plumbing the virtual plumbing inside a data center and dynamically based on demand the capability to do the same networking policy the same networking extension to one of the public cloud offering is very appealing because it sporadic it's a burst type of scenario yeah especially a lot of those service providers have that direct ability right as well correct correct and it you're right that it can become a little bit complex when you have when you want to to deploy nets with the same that's working policies across on-premise and multiple cloud provider and if you have interim service provider then it becomes a little bit complicated to have to orchestrate all of it and this is where Sdn gives them that hardware abstraction and and maintain the same networking policy well Charles Berlin appreciate the update on nuage and all of your viewpoints from from the customers that you're seeing my pleasure very very much for John Troyer I'm Stu Mittleman back with more coverage here at the open sex I'm at 2018 in Vancouver thanks for watching the Q [Music]

(upbeat music) >> Announcer: Live from New Orleans, Louisiana, it's theCUBE. Covering .NExT's conference 2018 brought to you by Nutanix. >> Welcome back to theCUBE, I'm Stu Miniman with my cohost Keith Townsend, and this is Nutanix .NEXT conference in New Orleans. Happy to welcome to the program, first time guest, Vijay Luthra, who's the Senior Vice President, global head of technology infrastructure services at Northern Trust. Vijay, great note on the keynote this morning. A lot of cool technologies that you're digging into, thanks for joining us. >> Well, thanks for having me. >> All right, so luckily it's easy, Northern Trust, understand finance, but tell us a little bit about you know, your organization and kind of give us a high level, what are some of the biggest challenges that you're facing? >> Yep, yep, absolutely. So again, Northern Trust, a global financial services firm, primarily in the asset servicing, asset management, wealth management business. Again, 128 year history, built on some very sound principles around service, integrity, and expertise. Some of the challenges we're facing is around growth. The firm is growing. Revenues are growing at a very, very healthy pace, especially when you compare that to our peers and competitors. And the challenge, number one, is how do we scale the business while managing the overall operating expenses, right? So we want to create some leverage in the business and we want the growth to be healthy growth. So that's challenge number one, and we recently, our CEO recently launched a value for spend program where we grow let's make sure we're spending and we're getting the value for the spend. >> Yeah, Vijay, can you just sketch out for us, you talk about growth and scale. You know, how many locations, how many users, they're emanating that you have to like wrap into this stuff? >> Yeah absolutely, so Northern Trust, about 18,200 employees, I would say 50, 60 plus locations. I would say well distributed across the different regions between US, Asia PAC, and EMEA. Yeah, at high level those are kind of the how we're kind of geographically dispersed. >> Okay great, and cloud. What does that mean to your organization? How does that fit in your role and across the company? >> So cloud, we've been on the cloud journey for several years now. We had a very mature virtualization strategy, which transitioned well into our private cloud strategy. We have enough scale internally where we said if we built an efficient private cloud, which by the way, if you heard on the keynote, was built 100% on converged, hyperconverged technologies. We were actually in the forefront when we adopted these technologies back in 2013, 2014. The goal back then was how do we get efficiencies and scale from the private cloud by leveraging automation, you know converged stacks are highly reliable because, for example, the patching is a lot more well tested by the vendors. So on our journey to the cloud that was essentially the first phase, when we transitioned from virtualization to private clouds, and since then we've actually built more value added layers on top of that. Because the goal is not just to cater to traditional applications that leverage infrastructure as a service, but also to cater to some of the more contemporary cloud native applications that we're building or even some of the containerized workloads. So we've built on top of that with PaaS and KaaS and software-defined components like SDN, and we are closely measuring the outcomes and the benefits. >> So Vijay, let's talk a little bit about that initial investment and decision. Northern Trust, well known for being conservative amongst the most conservative of investment firms. I'm from Chicago so I have an affinity for Northern Trust in general. Back in 2013 there was not as simple to look back it's simple to look back now and say oh yeah, right choice. Easy decision. But 2013 OpenStack was, you know, all the rave, building clouds based on these open source and available technologies was kind of the way to go. What made you guys take a look at hyperconverged and say, you know what, we're going to buck the trend and we're going to go with hyperconverged. Not many of your peers made that choice. >> Yes, that's a great question. So at Northern Trust we are heavily focused on outcome-based investment decisions. So within technology infrastructure our mission is pretty straightforward, which is as we scale infrastructure, how do we continue to reduce total cost of ownership, improve time to market, improve client experience, which is a very essential part of our decision-making process, and while we're doing that, not to lose site of reliability, stability, security. So with that kind of as our guiding principles, as we make major investments we take them through these lenders, and Nutanix hit all of them. So it was fairly straightforward. And again, some of the benefits, as you probably heard on stage, were phenomenal. We were able to increase capacity without increasing staff. We were able to reduce some of our automation, sorry bill teams, significantly. Reliability, stability improved drastically. For example, our virtual desktop infrastructure, the number of incidents, client generated incidents, internal client generated incidents, went down by 80, 90%. So again, to answer your question, outcome driven, have key metrics and measures on what you expect the outcomes to be, and then partner with the right firms to make sure you get the outcomes. >> So as we look at the next phase, you know, infrastructure's a service, you guys seem to have that down, mature virtualization practice, you lay it on top of that infrastructures and service. Now we look into the next phase, KaaS, PaaS type solutions. What are some of the major decision points and what's guiding your decisions? >> So clearly on everybody, all head of infrastructures or any organizations' mind today is how do we build a hybrid cloud strategy that is safe, secure, does not lock you into a specific vendor. It's the right application, the right type of workload, and that's where we're focused on now. We've got a few applications. Nothing that's production client centric is in a public cloud from an IaaS perspective. But we think we've invested in the right components to allow us to now orchestrate safely and securely across multi clouds. So that's what we're focused on now. >> Can you talk a little bit more about containerization? What's the experience like been working with Nutanix for those type of solutions? >> Yeah, so we were early adapters of containers with partnering with Docker built on the Nutanix platform. We've been working with them since the last couple years, and more recently since they announced the Kubernetes integration, we are factoring that into the Docker environment. The goal with containerization is, again, back to kind of those guiding principles, right? Lower costs of ownership, improved time to market, reliability, stability, we see an opportunity to consolidate Linux Windows based workloads because of the efficiencies that containers bring, as well as extend devops like functionality to app teams that might not be looking to refactor in a cloud native PaaS like format. They could take advantage of containers to get a devops like experience. We're enhancing security as we move to containers. There are several things we're doing there. So point being, we're looking at it through kind of the same lenses. >> So you threw out a couple things. I heard devops in there. In your keynote one of the things that you talked about a team going from 45 people (mumbles) to something to 12. Maybe explain a little bit about ops in your company, what happened to all those other 33 people. >> Okay quick questions, two parts. On the infrastructure as a service side, a few years ago we had a build team, mostly contractor driven, where we would use them to build servers, deploy applications, extremely manual. With converged technologies and all the automation that we had deployed, that team is down to 14, 15 people. Because a lot of the work has gone away, and our goal is to continue to fine tune that. So that's infrastructure as a service. Devops wise what we did was we carved out a team of four or five of what Gartner calls versatilists, multiskilled, multidisciplinary resources, senior engineers that focused on building out our devops practice on top of our platform as a service, and that has gone extremely well. You know the team has very successfully onboarded hundreds of microservices as we rearchitect some of our applications. So Vijay, talk us about the decision and the capability of being able to take monolithic applications, that are not going to be refactored and going to containers, there's a lot of debate on whether or not that's worth the trouble. But beyond that debate, talk to us about the importance and the reliance on the capability that Nutanix will be bringing in with ACS 2.0, are you guys looking to deploy that or are you looking to manage Kubernetes and that capability of managing these traditional applications inside of Kubernetes? >> Yeah, so we're a few steps ahead of Nutanix. In one of my conversations with Sunil I was saying man I wish this feature was available six months ago. So we are watching that development very closely. We are very interested in it. But because we have an existing Docker footprint, that's what we're leveraging for Kubernetes for now. >> Great, can you speak about Nutanix, the relationship you have with them, and their ecosystem. Things like secondary storage, you know how do you look at Nutanix as a partner and what do you see the maturity of their ecosystem? Any solutions you'd want to highlight there? >> Yeah, I mean, clearly what Nutanix did to the primary storage market, there's an emerging market on the secondary storage side, and we're working with a couple different companies to help us in that space. But just the Nutanix ecosystem itself, just because we are a few steps ahead and we've got some Nutanix components, we've got some third party components as part of Nutanix, I think the fact that Nutanix is becoming a one-stop shop as you can see with some of the announcements today, from a total cost of ownership perspective it becomes very interesting for someone like myself to say if I took out a few vendors or focused on the Nutanix stack, what does that mean? At what point is it usable? When can we start migrating, and those are the types of things we're going to focus on now. >> So have you gotten into a situation, especially considering that you're at least six months or so ahead of Nutanix when it comes to container orchestration, has the infrastructure gotten in your way at all? Have they done anything, because Nutanix can be opinionated in how they manage infrastructure. As that opinionation, has that opinion rather, gotten in your way as you look to go down your KaaS route? >> No, so far I would say no. I think a lot of their tooling is very intuitive, very easy to use. The engineers, with very minimal training, in fact, some of our engineers that retrained themselves on Nutanix happened over such a small duration and had to do with how simple to use Nutanix stack was. >> One of the lines I love from your presentation, you said you run IP as a business. What advice do you give to your peers out there, learnings you've had, staying a little bit ahead of some of the general marketplace. >> Yeah, I think the key is, back to kind of my initial comment, how do you build scale with an infrastructure? Meaning, how do you take on more workloads, new technologies, while managing your operating expenses tightly? We have essentially done that extremely well over the last few years where we have added to capacity, absorbed a lot of growth, introduced a lot of new technologies while keeping a very close eye on operating expenses. So I would say, if anything, when you run IT as a business, you take into account not just all the net adds, you have a program to consider optimizations. For example, we use a technology that helps us reduce physical VMWare based footprint. It helps us optimize and says here's where you have some debt capacity. You, as leaders and somebody in my position, should be willing and able to take out costs as well while taking on new technologies, I would say that's the key. So you're saying you guys are running IT as a business. What have been some of the KPIs and showing success in that transformation? >> Okay, we closely watch our operating expenses and we measure that as a percentage of total company operating expenses, what percentage are we of that? We closely watch time to market. How soon are we providing environments to ab dev teams. We closely watch stability off the underlying platforms, op time of those platforms. So I think those have direct impact on our internal clients as well as end clients. And then as a business, who are your competitors? >> As Northern Trust? >> No as you run IT as a business? >> Yeah, that's a great question. I would say cloud providers are competitors. But to be honest I shouldn't say that. I mean in a new model I want the team to think about cloud as just another endpoint, and we need to be able to safely and securely deploy the right app in the right cloud kind of the end state that we want to be in. So I wouldn't say they're competitors. I think we as a firm, or any firm should get comfortable with being able to orchestrate and move the right workloads in the right data centers to say. >> All right, Vijay, want to give you the final word. You're out there looking at some of the new technologies. What's exciting you, what's on your wishlist from the vendor community, maybe you can share. Personally I'm very excited about AI in ops. I know people talk about AI in financial services and the other industries. But I think the application of machine learning and AI within data center operations is relevant. And there's many things we're doing in that space in terms of a client facing chatbot that integrates with Link. Or certain add-ons onto Splunk that help you with machine learning and analyzing logs. Or bots that help you classify tickets and put them in the right cues at the right time. So we're looking at how to take advantage of those. Again, to build scale, to lower cost ownership, improve experience, etc., etc., so again, I think that's something I'm personally very, very excited about. >> All right, well Vijay Luthra, really appreciate sharing your story. Great success and look forward to catching up with you-- >> All right thank you. >> In the future. For Keith Townsend I'm Stu Miniman. Lots more coverage here from New Orleans Convention Center .NEXT, Nutanix's conference 2018. Thanks for watching theCUBE. (techno music)