>> Announcer: From around the globe, it's theCUBE with digital coverage of Dell Technologies World, Digital Experience, brought to you by Dell Technologies. >> Welcome to theCUBE's coverage of Dell Technologies World 2020, the digital version. I'm Lisa Martin, welcoming back to theCUBE one of our distinguished alumni, Travis Vigil, the SVP of Product Management for Dell Technologies. Travis, nice to see you today. >> Hey, how's it going Lisa? >> Not bad, nice to connect with you virtually, of course this year, everything is so different. You've already done virtual CUBEs. So welcome back to our very-- >> Yeah, this is my third one. >> Socially distance program. Third one? Third time lucky. >> Yeah. >> All right, so back in May, you were on theCUBE talking about the launch of PowerStore. Really what Dell Technologies was doing to kind of converge formerly overlapping technologies by Acquisitions, Compellent, XtremeIO, give us an update last few months of what's going on with PowerStore, customer adoption, momentum, stuff like that. >> Yeah, it's been almost six months that we've launched the product, and it's been an unbelievable experience. Let me kind of break it up into a couple of different aspects. First of all, we had to launch PowerStore into a very different world than we had anticipated. The global pandemic is obviously affecting everybody and everything around the world. Our first priority at Dell is the health and safety of our customers, of our team members, of our partners. And it was a very interesting experience in that, this technology is extremely important to many of our customers that are in essential businesses or businesses that are impacted by what's going on in the world. So even though there's this broad backdrop against which we had to launch the product, we're still seeing fantastic adoption and fantastic momentum. Since launch, we've shipped world wide over 40, we've shipped into over 40 different countries already. And we have the biggest pipeline that we've ever generated for our product in the history of Dell and EMC at this point in its life. But, I think to really talk about momentum and what's going on, it's better to talk about specific customers and what they're doing and what they're finding advantageous about the product. Start maybe with a healthcare example, a healthcare provider in North America chose to adopt PowerStore as a multimillion dollar deal. And what they were trying to do was modernize their data centers. They had many heritage storage devices in their data centers. There was a lot of technical debt and they wanted to modernize things, make things more autonomous. And at the same time consolidate multiple different data centers into most... Still they had data centers across the country and across the world, but they were consolidating into fewer sites. And with PowerStore because of the efficiency, because of the deduplication capability, because of the performance of the array, they were actually able to reduce the annual Opex they have related to storage expenditures by $3 million per year by going to PowerMax, I'm sorry, by going to PowerStore. So that was a big one. Another good example was an AMEA high-tech customer. They adopted PowerStore because of PowerStore's ability to scale performance and capacity independently. And in the business that they're in, they have two things that they're trying to balance. One is kind of a spiky performance requirement across their different applications, and the other is kind of a variable and uncertain growth of data. So the ability to scale performance when they need it and capacity when they need it allowed us to win this nearly million dollar deal with them. And then other one that's one of my favorites, an entertainment company in the APJ region, obviously with all of us staying home, I can speak for my kids that are remote learning right over my shoulder. There's a lot more video games going on. And so this particular provider was able to do three things by installing PowerStore. First, they were able to decrease their backup window from multiple weeks to a half a day because of the performance of the array. And the other thing they were able to do was to increase video game development efficiency by 25% and decreased costs of storage by 25%. So faster backups, more efficient game development, and decreased costs. So those are just a couple of the examples that we have for PowerStore. We're seeing great adoption, great traction, and really, customers and partners are really excited about what we've brought to market. >> You talked about some of the things that are essential, that even back in May when PowerStore was launched, no one would have thought here in October, 2020, we'd still be in such a state of massive remote workforce, businesses that we wouldn't have thought like a gaming company, and APJ being essential, as really being essential. Talk to me about the speed of adoption, for example, the healthcare organization that you talked about in North America. How quickly were you able to enable that organization to upgrade or migrate to PowerStore so that they could achieve not only those business objectives or outcomes that you talked about, but do so in a way where only essential folks needed to be on site, if it was on-prem, 'cause of course it was all the challenges there, right? >> Yeah, it's a really good question. This was a brand new product for us. And in order to enable proof of concept, in order to enable our partners to be able to demonstrate the product, it's taken an enormous amount of coordination and enormous amount of doing things remotely. And so, it's actually taken a little bit more time than had we been able to fly people around the world to do it, but we've gotten very proficient at organizing with the customer, being able to host the demonstrations or the proof of concepts remotely, be able to do our customer briefings remotely. So it is a new world and a new way of doing it, but we're doing it very effectively. >> So PowerStore was big from the beginning. There was like 1000 engineers working on this. This was the largest beta launch in Dell's history. >> The largest beta that we'd ever done, yes. >> Launching it during a pandemic that was unpredictable and you're seeing tremendous momentum. So walk me through, when you're talking to customers, what are some of the key differentiators that really make PowerStore unique? >> Yeah, I like to start at the architecture of the product when I'm talking to a customer about PowerStore, because with storage products, the architecture is the thing that all features and capabilities are built on. And so when you look at the core architecture of PowerStore, was a ground up design, a clean sheet design optimized for the way the world is today and the way the world is going to be. And so it was optimized for the latest and greatest in terms of media, whether that be NVMe or SCM, it was microservices based so that it's much more modular in the way that we can develop. And it was built from the ground up with things like performance and efficiency in mind. When we first launched this array, and this fact is true today, we were bringing a product to market because of the fact that we had built it and optimized it at its core for the way the world is today, that was seven times more performant and three times more responsive than any previous mid range array that we had brought to market. So, that core performance is kind of point number one. Point number two, data reduction. Data reduction is the new normal. And with PowerStore, we have a guaranteed 4:1 data reduction. We've actually had a partner that did a test across a broad array of mid range storage devices. And in their particular environment, they saw 4.6:1 data reduction. And the closest competitive array that they had in their environment was getting less than 4:1. So being very competitive industry leading in data reduction is another key capability. And then if you go back to the core architecture, and I talked about it in the high tech company that I mentioned, the European high tech company. The ability to scale performance and capacity independently in our scale out design is another differentiator. For folks that have been around storage arrays, a long time, traditional storage array, you would add capacity sometimes when you needed performance or you'd add performance sometimes when you needed capacity. By being able to separate those two things, customers can really get optimized in their environment for what their needs are. They need more performance, they can add more performance. They need more capacity, they can add more capacity. So I put those three things in the core architectural differentiation that's resonating with customers and partners. And then above and beyond that, we brought some industry only capability to market in that we are the only purpose built storage appliance with a built in VMware, ESXi hypervisor. So what this allows customers to do is, run VMware based applications on the same hardware as they're hosting for storage that's being fed to clients in the more traditional model. And this enables a whole new host of use cases where customers can change the way that they're optimized in the core. And also there's a lot of good edge deployments that this new capability can help enable. So it's being architectually advanced in performance, efficiency, and scale up and scale out, and bringing industry only capabilities in our integration, especially with VMware to market that have really resonated with our customers. >> Tell me about some of those new use cases that the VMware integration is enabling, especially in today's climate with massively scattered workforce that some big execs predict 50% of the workforce is going to stay remote. We've got the edge expanding, device proliferation. What are some of the new use cases that what PowerStore can deliver uniquely as you said, is going to be able to drive and help many businesses thrive? >> Yeah, I think that there's a change in the way that you can do things in the core, but I think the new, either remote site or kind of the distributed edge benefits from the ability to do more with less. And so if you can have hardware that is able to provide some compute capability and a lot of storage capability, those applications and use cases that are migrating to the edge or to a remote site can be enabled with a single device, which leads to easier manageability, lower total cost of ownership than having to deploy multiple devices. >> So you, great with the stats, you articulated the value that Dell Technologies set out to establish with PowerStore, all the testing what you're seeing actually in customer environments, which is fantastic. When you're talking with analysts, looking at what Dell Technologies has done and to develop PowerStore. And like I said, merging technologies from Compellent and XtremeIO, et cetera. Are analysts looking at this as maybe a benchmark in terms of what storage array companies should be doing? >> Yeah, there was some press that was written when we announced that the release of PowerStore established a new benchmark of what was expected from a mid range storage array which was something that was really fulfilling, especially after all of the work and all of that engineering that we talked about, that ended the innovation that we had put into it over the course of a multi-year journey. And so, what we're seeing, whether it be from partners, whether it be from analysts, whether it be from customers, is people really understanding that we have taken a huge step forward in simplifying our portfolio. That we're able to direct our R&D investments into a single platform to bring more and more capability to that platform over time. And that message is resonating very strongly. >> So wrapping things up here, PowerStore is in its first five or six months. And during that time, crazy things have happened in the world. We're in a state of still disarray, if you will, no pun intended. What is next for the second half of PowerStore's first year? How is Dell Technologies going to enable businesses to really continue to get past that survival mode right now, into thriving so that they can be the winners of tomorrow? >> Yeah, I think the first half of this year was all about getting the product out into market, getting people educated on it, getting partners trained up on it, getting those key early wins, establishing that thought leadership on what we're doing with the overall storage portfolio. The second half of this year is really about adoption and getting it into the hands of more customers, getting it into that... Enabling our partners to amplify our message into the market. And so I think you're going to see a continual drumbeat from us in terms of more adoption, more momentum and more success on PowerStore. And for me, that is the foundation going back to the architecture, comment I made earlier of good things to come in the future. The architecture is so flexible and is built for the future. And so when new things come, when new media comes, when new interfaces or interconnect technologies come, when we invest in even tighter integration with VMware, like at VMworld just a couple of weeks ago, we announced that we're partnering with VMware on a new interconnect technology and NVMe-over-TCP. That core architecture is so flexible that it can adopt with software upgrades to the way the world is going to be in the future. And so for me, it was getting it out into the market, getting it adopted, and then continuing to provide new features and new capabilities as the market evolves. >> And as our evolution is sort of unclear, the flexibility that you talked about, the simplification are needed everywhere. I'll take those as well. Travis, thank you so much for sharing with us the moments for the first half of PowerStore's first year and what we can look to see in its, not just second half, but going forward, we appreciate your time. >> Thank you so much, Lisa. >> My pleasure, for Travis Vigil, I'm Lisa Martin, you're watching theCUBE'S coverage of Dell Technologies World 2020 Digital Experience. (upbeat music)

>> Announcer: Live from Barcelona Spain, it's theCUBE. Covering Cisco Live 2020. Brought to you by Cisco and its ecosystem partners. >> Hello everyone, welcome to theCUBE here live in Barcelona Spain for Cisco Live 2020. This is our first CUBE event for the year. Next 10 years of CUBE history, we look back 10 years since we've been around, for 10 years, we have another 10 more we're looking forward to. And this is the first event for 2020 Cisco Live at Barcelona. I'm John Furrier, your host, with Dave Vellante, Stuart Miniman, extracting the signal from the noise. The cloud business is noisy, the networking business is under siege and changing, Dave and Stu we're pre gaming, Cisco Live, kicking off the show, end of the first kind of pre day, Tomorrow's the big keynotes. David Geckler, Verizon exec is preparing to announce rumor has it some insights into what Cisco's position will be vis a vis cloudification, that's going to change their portfolio and probably identify some opportunities, and also some potential gaps in their strategy and what they can do to be competitive. The number one leader in networking, they got a great market position. But cloud is changing the game with networking. >> Yeah, john, it's funny, I heard you talking about, the 10 years and everything. 10 years ago, if I thought about Cisco, I'd be looking at the I pattern of getting the jitter out of the network and trying to tweak everything. And today, what are we talking about with Cisco? We're talking about software, we're talking about cloud. We're talking about developers. Yeah, they're a networking company at its core, but Cisco has been going through a significant transformation, it's been an interesting one to watch. Dave, you wrote a little bit about, Cisco is one of the four horsemen of the internet era, of course the dotcom, they were one of the ones that actually survived and thrived after the dotcom burst, but Cisco is a very different company today far from the $500 billion market cap that they had a few years back, they were at about $200 billion, but still dominant in switching and routing. But there are threats from a number of environments and a lot of changes as to what you need to think about when it comes to Cisco. >> Well, sometimes it's instructive to look back and see how we got here. Cisco made three big bets during its ascendancy, the first one was it bet on IP, I mean, John, you've talked about this a lot, it decimated the mini computer industry by connecting distributed computing and client server, the underlying plumbing there. The second big bet it made was it trained a bunch of engineers, the Cisco certified engineers CCIEs, and they used that as a lever and created a whole army of people that were Cisco advocates, and that was just a brilliant move. And the third was under the leadership of John Chambers, They did about 180 acquisitions, and they were quite good at acquisitions and what that did for them is it continued to fuel growth, it filled in gaps and it kept them relevant with customers. Now, part of that, too, was, Chambers had dozens and dozens of adjacent businesses, remember, he said they were all going to be a billion dollars. Well, most of them, didn't pan out. So they had to cut and burn, and so but now under the leadership of Roberts, they're a much more focused company, kind of getting back to basics, trying to bet on sure things and so let's talk about what some of those sure things are and how Cisco's performing. >> Well it's clear you said lever, they're got to pull a lever at some point and turn the boat that is Cisco, aircraft carrier, what do you want to call it? In the right direction? That's been something that, we've been covering Cisco for decades Stu as you just pointed out, and while we've been close to all the action, I think Cisco knows what's going on. It's clear to me that they kind of understand the landscape. They understand their opportunities in the future, but they're a massive business, Dave, you pointed it out. The combination of all those mergers. The thing that got my attention was as they understood the unification many, many years ago in the compute side, you saw Cisco clearly understands the unification. They know cloud is here, they know that do not make a move, that's cloud friendly, they were going to get swept away and be adrift with the next wave, which is cloud 3.0, whatever we call it. So to me, that's the big story with Cisco. What is the impact of the company when you cloudify business? That's not public cloud, that's hybrid public, economics are changing, the compute capabilities are changing, the network capabilities are changing, got the edge. I think Cisco will be defined by their actions over the next two to three years. What they announce, how they position it, and what they bring value to the customers because you got Silicon One chip, good move, got cloud position, got App D on the on the top of the stack, you got cloud center, they're trying to get to the cloud, but you can't do that until you have the subscription business, until you, can't do pricing by usage unless you have that model. So I think it's a brick by brick, but slowly they're doing it. We have to hear some things next year on Cisco, on how they're going to be true, cloud enabled? >> Well, software is a huge play for them, right? I mean, they've got it, because Cisco's been the dominant player in networking with two thirds of the market, I mean, they've sustained that for a decade plus, and it has allowed them to drive 60 plus percent gross margins for years and years and years, huge operating margin. So how are they going to continue that? Software is the key. And as you say, John, subscriptions is the cloud model that is critical for Cisco. Now they talk about 70% of their software business is subscriptions and annual recurring revenue, it's unclear really how big their software business is, they give hints, I'd peg it at about seven to eight billion last year, maybe growing to 10, 12 billion this year. So pretty sizable, but that's critical in terms of them driving the margins that they need to throw off free cash flow so they can invest in things like stock buybacks and dividends which prop up the stock. >> Well, the problem is you start chasing your tail on the stock price and or product TAMS and product revenue, you might actually miss the boat on the new product. So it's a balance between cannibalizing your own before you can bring in the new, and this is going to be the challenge with Cisco, when do they bite the bullet and say, "Okay, we got to get a position on this piece here "or that piece there, ultimately, "it's going to be about customers." And what do we know, public cloud succeeded with one data, hybrid cloud is a reality and people are executing specific technologies to do an operating model that's cloud And to me, the big wave for Cisco, in my opinion, is multi cloud, because that's not a technology. That's just, that's a value proposition, it's not so much a technology. >> Yeah, Dave, you mentioned a lot of the acquisitions that Cisco has done. In many ways, though, some of the areas where Cisco can be defined is the acquisitions that they didn't do. Cisco did not buy VMware, and were behind in the virtualization wave. And then they created UCS and that actually was a great tailwind for them, created their data center business. They did not end up buying Nicira, and yet, Nicira's done very well. But if you talk to most customers well, even if you're deploying NSX, whose hardware do you tend to have? Well, yes, sure, it might be Arista, might be somebody else's but Cisco still doing good, going well, so they haven't had, there hasn't been a silver bullet to kill Cisco's dominant, but how are they going to do without cloudification? The data center group has gone through a lot of challenges. If you look at they fumbled along with OpenStack, like many other companies did, they went through just as VMware really failed with VCloud Air, the cloud group inside of Cisco had, they had this large Cisco offering that for a couple of years, everybody's looking, I don't know, are you enabling service providers? What are you doing? Now they have management pieces, they're partnering with Google, Amazon, Azure, across the environments, they are heavily involved in Kubernetes and the service meshes. So it remains to be seen where Cisco will find that next Tam expansion to kind of take them to the next wave. >> But Stu, acquisition is a good piece. And what I think they got to do some M&A clearly and organic but the question is would Nicira have been successful at Cisco versus VMware. Look at the timing of that, I think VMware being bought would have been a home run. But Nicira, I don't think that succeeds at Cisco. I think that would be a bunch of knife fights internally. And Nicira would have been shifted up because what it was then and what it is now and VMware are two different things because VMware took it, and shaped it, that I don't think Cisco could have done it at that time, >> The success would have been a defensive move to keep VMware out. That would have been the nature of the success, but I think you're right, the infighting would have been brutal, but VMware wouldn't have Nicira. >> VMware, What they did when they bought Nicira is they spent the first three or four years just making it an extension of VMware. Now it's starting to become their multi Cloud Interconnect. And that's where we need to see Cisco be involved. Cisco's bought many companies that have promised to be multicloud management or that interconnecting fabric and they have not yet panned out. >> Well, security is the linchpin though here, they've made a bunch of acquisitions in security. And I've always said that they've got a position, their networking is the most cost effective, the highest performance and the most secure to connect multiple clouds to hybrid on-prem. And they're in a good position to do that. >> Well, I think I've always said this from day one, you guys know I'm harping on this, Stu and I, we High Five each other all the time when we say this, but back in the days in IT days, the heyday, if you were a network operator, network designer, network architect, you were the king, king or queen. So you had the keys to the kingdom. VMware is a legitimate threat to Cisco. They compete, and they talk about that all the time. But the question is, which community has the keys to the kingdom? Rhetorical question. >> Yeah, well John one point I made earlier, (John laughing) >> Okay, go ahead. >> I remember Pat Gelsinger got on stage and he's like, "Hey, here's the largest collection of network admins" and everybody's looking at him, what are you talking about Pat? When I talk to customers that are deploying NSX, it is mostly not the network team, it is the virtualization team, and they're still often fighting with the network team. But to your point, where I've seen some of the really smart network architects, and people building stuff, Amazon, Azure, Google all have phenomenal people, and they're building environment back Cisco needs to make sure they partner and are embedded there. >> If you, Dave mentioned the leverage. Cisco's got to pull that lever or, turn the boat around and one shift move now, or otherwise, they'll lose that leverage. They have more power than they think in my opinion, they probably do know, but they have the network. And I think the network guys trump the operating guys, because you always swap in operating staff, but you got the network, and the network runs the business. No one could swap out Cisco boxes for a Synopsis years ago, so or Bay, whatever it turned into, so they have that nested position. If they lose that they're done. >> Yeah, and I agree with you, John, there's a lot of, Stu, you pointed out this, people buy NSX and Cisco ACI, but my question is, okay, how long will that redundancy last? I think, to your rhetorical question, Cisco is sitting in the catbird seat and they know networking, they're investing in it. I don't think they're going to lose sight of that. Yeah, wrist is, common Adam and Juniper, but Cisco, they know how to manage that business and maintain its leadership. I guess my question is, have they lost that acquisition formula? Are they as good at acquisitions as they used to be? >> I think their old model's flawed for the modern era. I think the acquisition's got to come in and integrate and I think VMware has proven that they can do acquisitions right. I think that comes from the EMC kind of concept where it's got to fit in beautifully and have synergies right away. I think what Pat Gelsinger is doing I think he's smart and I think that's why VMware is so successful. They got great technical talent, they know the right waves to be on and they execute. So I think Cisco has got to get out of these siloed acquisitions, this business unit mindset and have things come in, if they work, in line with the strategy and the execution. It has to from day one, I've got it. You got to be fitting perfectly in. >> The portfolio is still pretty complicated. You got the core networking. You got things like WebEx, right? I mean, would you want to be going up against Microsoft Teams? But they're in it, Cisco's in it to win it, and they got to they got to talk about-- >> Don't count out Zoom. >> Talking about, no, Zoom's right there too in the mix. And so Cisco's got some work to do, expect some enhancements coming there, in HCI, they've got to walk a fine line Stu, you made this point. On the one hand, they've got, IBM and NetApp with UCS and conversion infrastructure, but then they buy Springpath, which is designed to replace converged infrastructure. So they've got to walk that fine line. >> All right, what are you guys going to hear this week? Let's just wrap this up by going down the line on thoughts and predictions as the keynote kicks off tomorrow, I took some notes, I was doing some, going around the floor trying to get inside people's heads and ask them probing questions. And here's what I got out of it. I think Cisco is going to recognize cloud and absolutely throw the holy water on the fact that it's part of their strategy. I think we'll hear a little bit about Silicon One and how it relates to the portfolio, but I think the big story will be how tying the application environment together with networking, not end to end but really as one seamless solution for customers. I think it's going to be a top story that's been teased out by some of the booths that I saw, connecting things as one holistic thing with application development focus with DevOps. >> Yeah, so John, ACI was application centric infrastructure. And it was critical back in back in the day there is like, well, the application owner really doesn't have much connection there. If you look at what Cisco has been doing the last few years, it is tying together more that application owner, the DevNet group that, we're sitting here in the DevNet zone, that connection between the developer and making enabling them as part of the business absolutely is a wave that Cisco needs to drive. I don't think we're going to see a ton of the Silicon One, 5G and that kind of stuff, if for no other reason then in about a month, they're going to be sitting here with 100,000 people from Mobile World Congress and that's where they keep their dry powder to make sure that they push that piece of it. But that is super important, so and yeah. >> I think, software and security, I mean, I, as you were talking about, Zoom, Teams, so they better focus on collaboration and I want to hear some stuff there, security, IoT and the edge. They've got a very strong position there. Their security, Cisco security business grew 22% last quarter, it's really doing well. So I want to hear more about that. And I think data center, what they're doing in the data center, what they're doing with their switching business, their HCI stuff and converged infrastructure, hyper converged and, three important areas that we'll hear about this week. >> And Dave, I'll emphasise on what you were saying. Edge edge edge, absolutely, if Cisco is going to maintain a dominant player in the network, they need to deliver on that edge. And I've heard a couple of messaging strategies in the past, there was fog computing and all this other stuff, but I think Cisco is in a position today between Meraki that they have between their core product, >> Dave: Devnet. >> To really be able to enable-- >> And those are really-- >> Well, I want to see more progress, I'm looking forward to see, I'm going to drill them on the interviews we do here. They spent millions, billions of dollars satisfying and creating a subscription model with the cloud. We're going to dig into it, we're going to extract the signal from the noise, theCUBE coverage here in Barcelona, Spain. First show of 2020, Cisco Live 2020, I'm John Furrier, Stuart Miniman, Dave Vellante. We'll be right back. (upbeat music)

>> Narrator: Live from Austin, Texas, it's theCUBE covering KubeCon and CloudNativeCon 2017. Brought to you by Red Hat, the Linux Foundation and theCUBE's ecosystem partners. >> Welcome back, I'm Stu Miniman and you're watching SiliconANGLE Media's Flychip Production of theCUBE. We're here at CloudNativeCon and KubeCon here in Austin, Texas. Happy to welcome back to the program, a many-time alum Tom Joyce, who is now the CEO of Pensa. Tom, great to see ya. >> Great to see you too. >> Alright, so Tom, we've had you on, so many different ecosystems, so many different waves of technology. Talk about Pensa, how it fits into this whole cloud native space that we're looking at this channel. >> Great, yeah, and like you said, you and I we've known each other a long time, we've seen a lot of revolutions in technology, and we're in the middle a number of them right now, and at this event you've got the Cloud-native folks and you've got the folks that are tackling connectainers and Kubernetes orchestration. You know, it's interesting, this crowd here is so young, and so creative. The last few days, I was at the Gartner Data Center Infrastructure show, and-- >> Stu: Not so young there? >> Not so young, but the same problems, right? Two different communities trying to solve the same problems. Which are how do we deal with insane complexity? How do we deal with an environment that's now not just three public clouds and some hybrid clouds, but a growing list of specialty clouds. How do we manage all of that? And what Pensa is trying to do, is be a part of solving that problem, using intelligent automation technology. Especially in managing the underlay complexity, the infrastructure layer. It's kind of funny we've gone through a period of time when the whole discussion has been, hey, containers are going to be at Pensa, and infrastructure doesn't matter, and infrastructure is going away. I think there's some truth to how that is evolving, but it still matters especially when you get down to having to deliver services to customers. >> Tom first of all, Dan Cone got on stage from the CNCF, and he said, "It is exciting times for boring infrastructure." >> Tom: Yeah. >> Maybe too exciting. I love that line, because every wave comes out, it was like, Tom you remember, virtualization, I'm not going to have to worry about things like that. >> It's been the biggest revolution, and it is the biggest wave of infrastructure ever. >> We spent a decade fixing that. Containers came out, oh, once again we're extracted away and it's going to take that. So, what do you see as that role, between the infrastructure layer and that cloud native? What are the big challenges? What are your customers seeing, and how Pensa have an effect? >> Well, I think what we're seeing, in my opinion, is we're going from operations running everything to DevOps, to now their starting to talk about NoOps. How do we get to a point where-- >> Ah, we might have argued over the terminology. We need Ops, obviously. >> Here's what I think, I think it's going to be less Ops and more architecture. I think the challenge becomes around, how do you do the design, how do you architect these systems so that they'll work and not fail. It's a lot like one metaphor I heard somebody use and I'm going to steal is we went from drafting on a sketch pad, using CAD technology, to using 3D CAD technology, to automated CAD technology, to now servers providing it. Right? And what happened? Everybody got smarter about architecture being the important part, not the actual physical plugging together. I think the role of the architect, in a cloud native environment, in a Kubernetes environment, in a VM environment, is frankly more important than ever. Somebody needs to know how the tools work, to make sure the the service levels actually deliver. I have sat in a lot of these meetings where people say, "Look, just put your old app in a container "and you can run it anywhere, it'll be fine." Somebody needs to think about the architecture. We want to provide intelligent technology that helps them do that. Like AutoCAD and like some of these things that came along in that ecosystem. >> One of the things I've been poking at, you know, most of this year and coming into this show especially, is people say, "Ah, it's too complicated." The response really is, "Well apologizes, it's never going to get simple." What we need is, I need proper tooling, things like automation to be able to help because humans alone will not be able to fix that. I really need to have the combination of the tooling, proper architecture, as you said. What are you seeing, how's that playing out in the customer environment? >> I think what we're seeing is folks figuring out that number one it's cross domain and cross cloud. So whatever you design needs to work in multiple different environments that are going to end up having different capabilities. Nobody really has deep expertise and everything about networking, everything about containers, everything about compute and storage, but all those things still matter. What folks are asking for is a layer of technology that kind of arbitrates between the underlying infrastructure and the upper level applications, they're actually trying to deliver. And that's where this automation layer, that's submerging comes in. Part of that orchestration, and part of it's what we do. What we're focusing on is design, validate complex designs, build them and deploy them, using tools that help people do that a lot faster and get it right every time. So mistakes don't transpire. >> Yeah, Tom, I want you to help explain to our audience this whole SDN wave, kind of it played out, and sure Vmware NSX and Cisco ACI, they're doing okay, but for a lot of the industry, SDN equals still does nothing. Yet networking critically important, heavily involved in both the container and all this cloud native discussion. How are we fixing networking, how is it being set up for this type of environment versus what we we're trying to do with SDN? >> I think this is a good point, I think you've got SDN and the enterprise. You also have network functions virtualization and the service providers and often overlook that in the enterprise you're going through cloud native and DevOps transitions. And surge providers are going through a revolution of their own. Going from being telcos, becoming digital service providers. The problems are similar that technologies are different. My observation is this, is the hype cycle's real. We've gone through five years of talking about SDN, talking about open stack, talking about network functions virtualization. All of a sudden now, what I've seen in this job is that there's real money getting spent and the technology's being used. NSX's being used in a whole variety of ways that people didn't anticipate. We're seeing in everyone of these service providers, whether they're a classic telcos, they're wired, or they're wireless, or they're cloud. They're investing in technologies to revolutionize how that core of that network works, and how the edged network works. I think the first signs of that are really NSX and SDN. SDN has now gone mainstream because customers have seen that there's a real used case for it. That's kind of your first broadly applicable network function. And I think through the next couple of years, it will be one after another. Those problems are going to get knocked down. Frankly in our business, we started focusing on a lot of these enterprise problems with NSX and VSAN and software defined data center technologies around VMware. We're working on containers, but frankly the biggest area of growth for us is probably going to be these large service providers. It's like a trillion dollar business and it's going to be revolutionized over five years. We're getting involved in a lot of these network functions virtualization conversations. I wouldn't say it does nothing, it does a lot, but getting there, it's been a really hard technology to figure out. >> It took a little bit while to mature. The other thing you've got some strong background on, the management monitoring in this type of environment. What's new? How does that change in the networking space, when we have all microservices and all of these various pieces there? What are you seeing there? >> The short answer is I have a little bit of a controversial view on that. It's not unique but I think-- >> John Ferrer would say, we love controversy here on theCUBE. >> I think monitoring goes away. Monitoring the way it's been done for the last 30 years goes away. I think when we had mainframes, we had client servers, we had internet, and now we have this set of technologies we're working with in virtualization. Every time that transition has happened, there's been a whole bunch of monitoring companies. I think classic monitoring is eventually going to go away. Ultimately, there is a lot of complexity, and the machine needs to manage it, right? The machines going to need to manage it. The eyeballs watching the problem and remediating it to a greater and greater extent, are going to be automation technologies. Versus throwing out more and more alerts in front of a human that says, "I'm just going to turn them off "because I don't know what this means." I think automation technologies are going to replace classic monitoring. Again, you go around this event here, the folks that are doing cloud native, they don't want to have a bunch of monitoring alerts. They're not going to tolerate that. They just want to deliver an application service. They don't want to deal with operations, they don't want to deal with monitoring, they don't want to deal with problems, they want the problems to take care of themselves. That's hard, but I think that's coming. >> Tom, the end users whether it be enterprise, service providers, there's a lot of technology out there, there's a lot of things happening out there. When do they know to call Pensa? Give us some of the big value problems that they should knowing that say, "Oh hey", "Yes that makes sense to me, I need to give you guys a call" >> You can boil it down very simply, we deal with two kinds of people, and they're really the architects. Think about that CAD analogy. We're dealing with people that are doing complex designs in two areas. One is typically software defined data center. So people that are bringing all of these technologies together and need to deliver a working system, maybe a really complex proof of concept or big systems where they're using VMwear, as an example. We help them get that job done, do it fast. That's what the automation systems we provide do. The other is, in large scale service providers. Folks that are dealing with onboarding VNF's, building complex networks and have been grappling with that, with open stack in some of these early technologies for a number of years. We have a revolutionary way to onboard those VNF's, validate designs, deliver designs and do it in a way that integrates with all the open source technologies people are using. To be honest with you, I don't which of those is going to be more important to us, but their two big areas, and our technology applies to both. >> Tom, you've been CEO at a couple of companies now. I want to get your view point, just being the CEO for a startup in today's landscape, what's it like? What advice do you give your peers? When you guys are grabbing a drink at the bar, what are some of the biggest challenges and biggest things that excite you? >> We are to tired to grab a drink at the bar. I'll tell you that I love this. It is a great mental challenge, because again I've been like you, I've been doing this for over 30 years. It forces you to learn and learn and learn and question what you know. And that's what I really like, the opportunity to engage with the leading edge of technology. Frankly all the folks here are young and creative and it's forced me to become better at what I do. There are a lot more unknowns than working for a big company. With a big company, a lot of what you have to do is laid out before you. In this job, I have to constantly force myself to question what I know, to listen to the customer, to learn new things, and it can be tiring, but it's a good kind of tiring. >> Alright, last question I have for you. What are you most proud, what you've done since you've joined Pensa? And give us a little bit of outlook for 2018, for those that are watching, what should we be looking for, kind of miles stone deliverables or other items. >> I think what I'm most proud of, this sounds like a silly statement, but I'm proud of what the team has accomplished. I didn't do anything, right? I don't write the code. We have a bunch of engineers that are actually delivering the product. I think we've been really fortunate to keep all those people and get them focused on some big problems. I'm proud of delivering Pensa Lab to market, and I'm proud of the customers we've signed up, since we launched that just at the beginning of October. I'm proud of what we're doing with Nokia on large scale networking in the NFP area. And frankly I'm proud of the ability of this team to constantly engage and learn and try new things and take risks and screw up and try again. It's that whole experience, it's good to work with good people that you like. >> Alright and 2018? >> 2018 I think is going to be surprising for the people in terms of the kind of the reemergence of open stack. I think open stack is coming back. >> Don't let them hear that Tom, the wolves will come out. Why? >> Well because I think it's reaching at a point where the economics of certain kinds of cloud models, and frankly the economics of the Mware are forcing people to reconsider. But it especially around digital service providers. These large companies have been grappling with "How do we revolutionize our poor networks" for five years dealing with open stack. And they kind of got a lot of the stuff to work now. I think that is another sort of controversial statement. When I got into this job, I was like "Yeah open stack is dead". I was involved with Helion at Hewlett-Packard, and I was like "That's never coming back". Well guess what, it's coming back. I think the other thing is, we're going to see a lot more money being spent on revolutionizing the core networks, and these telcos and digital service providers. That's what I think the big things going to be. >> Absolutely, we've been at the open stack show for any years. The networking component especially for the telco and service providers, absolutely a strong area of focus. Your average enterprise, might not be looking for open stack. >> There might be pockets. >> Internationally there's some pockets, but absolutely. Tom Joyce, always a pleasure to catch up with you. Looking forward to seeing you the next time. And well be back with lots more coverage here from theCUBE at KubeCon. In Austin Texas, you're watching theCUBE.