from the cube studios in Palo Alto in Boston connecting with thought leaders all around the world this is a cube conversation LeBron's special conversation I'm John Tory here in the cube I'm not in the studio I'm at home we're sheltering in place the studio quarantine crew is there we've got a great guest here to break down and Alice in the tech industries for vallah who's this principle of zk research Aziz great to check in with you for our check-in last time we chatted you broke down entire industry a lot to talk about now we have the Cisco earnings just came out and a lot of other great things are happening thanks for joining me well what's your take on what's going on yeah I think so thanks John it's uh it's been heard about tumultuous last few months I think one of the takeaways I had from Cisco's earnings actually was that it's not as bad as you think I know if you read a lot of what's going on the media we get everything from doomsday and the world's ending or whatever but I think what Cisco's earnings showed and in Cisco I know they have a lot of enemies and a lot of competitors out there but they're really still a bellwether for the industry and so everyone should rejoice in the fact that they actually had a pretty good quarter I think what was was telling about that was security was up the services business was up the margins were good and what that shows me is that there's still room for innovation customers relax are still buying things and they're willing to pay for things that actually help drive their business forward and so Cisco's put a lot of energy into their services group to make sure that customers are able to adapt their technology and change their business right and so from an overall market perspective Cisco is you know they're the quarters are the court has shifted from almost everybody else's and so they're generally a leading indicator of where things are going so I think the fact that they showed some strength they guided up from where the street thought I think that's a good thing for the entire industry and I think I'm not saying we're out of this yet but I think businesses are starting to spend money where they need to in order to put themselves in a position to come on strong after well once we start going back to work whoever knows what that'll be I think the other sort of interesting pivot here is that I think the overall role the network has changed with income right we've covered networking technologies a long time it gets a little bit of interest sometimes from sea level certainly not as much as it should from CEOs and CIOs a lot of people think of it as the plumbing and the pipes it's hard to understand it's a very complicated technology sometimes but when you look at what's happened with digital transformation initiatives and now covent we've got more people at home or adopting cloud services we use video for connecting more things with IOT initiatives so the overall value of the network is increased that I think that was also reflected in Cisco's numbers I think this transition had started when you look at a lot of the building blocks and digital transformation IOT cloud mobility things like that they're all Network centric in nature and so for the first time in history I think business leaders actually need to look at their network strategies because if that's without a sound network strategy as we sort of come out of this and the companies that have a good one will be able to really step on the gas and do what they want with their business the ones that don't I think I'd a really struggle to survive because I'm not gonna be able to do a lot of these advanced things yeah great point one of the things Brazil the new cisco has a new leadership new c has been in place for a while positioning they're going after and you know with the cloven crisis it really puts more pressure knock the move of the network because it's a core staple of an organization yet the transformation journey is going to be accelerated this gives Cisco it's a lucky strike for Cisco because it'll move packets around and the multi cloud conversation comes in and the enablement of application development all being five to the network is what cisco has been preparing on and this has kind of been a nuance point then that everyone understands but coming out of Cova to have a growth strategy if you're not programming up and down the stack with DevOps and Nets a cops or whatever you want to call it people working at home a new perimeter is now emerged that's everything everything is the premise is this a tailwind for Cisco your thoughts on that your face oh yeah the big time tailwind francisco i think what's happened gentlemen you look at network evolution over the last five years we can do much more with our network that's coming to cost and that cost us complexity so trying to tie all these things together SP Winn Sassie datacenter Sdn right we've got Wi-Fi six coming we've got 5g coming so we've got all these great things that we're gonna let our networks be faster than ever before and run applications we can never run before right you look at some of the demos on 5g we're able to wear untethered Wi-Fi our virtual reality headsets complete creating completely new shopping experiences educational experiences but you need a lot of bandwidth that but not only you need bandwidth I think the one thing that Kovac has taught us is do you have any weakness in the network anywhere right from the user's hand all the way to the cloud that weak point at the time and so now you have to start thinking of your network not in pieces of having a campus network Wi-Fi network data center network and that a single network right and so cisco is really one of the few companies maybe the only company that can actually deliver that end and network that starts in the company extends to people's homes goes out to the cloud and with what they've done masterfully under Chuck Robbins is they've been able to pile those things together to create a much simpler way of operating this complicated network so you look at what they're doing you know with a CI and intent based networking what that is is you can think of it almost as a software overlay that masks the complexity of the network that's underneath it yeah talking about cisco over the past decade and a half and i'm with the stack guys you gotta move up the stack this has been this is now their opportunity and with multi cloud on the horizon or here this is going to give cisco a path but I got to ask you what is your take and advice to Cisco when you're out there talking to them you're talking to of the customers all the time and practitioners you're the analyst what do they need to do better because you can't just wish a multi cloud upon the marketplace it's coming but it's not clearly not the use case yet so that's a time lag between a CI intent based networking to true multi-cloud what if Cisco do in the meantime yeah well I think what's this go has to do is is think about what they're doing with a CI and multi cloud and actually help their customers implement it in in pieces and what the description I'd use is is the paths this goes on and the path customers are on actually in this world of you think if the end state is true hybrid multi-cloud right we have to get there in ship shots and not moon shots and what I mean by that is if you were to say to a customer this is your end state right the path to get there is so donkey and it's like a moon shot that it paralyzes the customer if you break this down into a set of chip shots right that gets much easier so so put the infrastructure in place to be able to just have the visibility across applause then maybe automate movement from hi private the public cloud right then automate some of the processes that give you the most headaches then move to a bigger Ottoman Ottoman automation framework right so yeah areas like security network configuration right things like that those are those are very difficult for customers to do manually those are the things they should be automating today so what they want to do is almost take through their intent-based network to almost as a lighthouse the road to a visionary state and then help customers get there in pieces because if they try and rush them along too fast I think they'll lose the customer because the complexity is too high the other area they should really be focused on is continuing to mature the services business I think that's something under Chuck Robbins that's night and day different than what it was the services business - Cisco prior to Chuck was a lot of break fix you know their TAC is well renowned as being a great pack but now they've gotten more of the pro services they've gotten more into adoption services and I think the more subscription they sell what Cisco needs to really understand is that customers tend not to renew things they don't use right so making sure that the services group helps customers and use the things that they're paying for and that'll pay dividends for them multiple dividends for them down the road I want to get the silken one on that opportunity to upsell and do a refresh because what refreshes are not gonna be on the docket early on unless discuss business value so let's hold that for a second John Chambers has been on the cube recently in his new role as a coach and investor and he says to us on the cube you know transitions versus transformation Cisco and the big companies are expected to win the transitions but now with coming out of this there's real transformation so you got to look at things like collaboration hey guys get better this is not just win the enterprise with a better web max zoom is they can ask Bob teams is out there so you know Cisco's that's a huge collaboration piece and a bunch of other business so where's their transition wins and where's their transformational opportunity in Europe in well I think the entire company is kind of going through transformations right even on the network side so it's right it's like you know the industry has been calling Francisco to get commoditized for years right and if you look the product gross margins are actually the strongest they've been in a decade right so I remember when I fell below 60% they everybody thought the world was falling this quarter I think was a little over 65 on the product side and so my belief is nothing is really a commodity if you can drive innovation that's what's this has been doing so from a transition standpoint I think they've done a lot of that they've transitioned the company to software and services they've transitioned the company more terrain model they've actually decoupled software from the hardware so customers can buy differently and you brought up the fact that we may not have a hardware refresh but that's okay as long as they keep the software a newa cycles forth where the transformations has to come is completely change the dynamics of how something works and so with intent-based networking you think of the old way that network engineers to work like the way I used to work when I was an engineer a lot of hunting pecking and at a CLI doing a lot of cutting and pasting and using homegrown tools that doesn't scale anymore my research shows that on average takes companies about four months the implemented change network-wide far too slow for digital company right so Francisco's done is they've accelerated that by letting customers automate more things and so Francisco the transformation comes in allowing customers to new new things I think you read in the collaboration side there's more work to do nobody's got a bigger collaboration portfolio than Cisco they got endpoints they got rooms just right they've got software they were a cloud on Prem but they got to take that and tie it together and I think the other area that's is gonna need improving is on they've they've got a lot of management tools that that look at different things they have at the ACI manager and a whole bunch of different security consoles in fact they funded them sometimes and said that the market leader in single panes of glass because they have more than anybody right I think eventually they got to be able to tie that information together and help customers understand what it means from a cross domain perspective because they still build a product's wireless campus data center but as I mentioned before we just have one network and so Cisco can aggregate this data up apply machine learning to it and help customers what that means they see insight across the entire network that would really be powerful because they they've got the footprint now they just have to be able to deliver the machine learning based insights some customers understand what that data means and they have a unique opportunity in the short term no one's going to be kidding Cisco out anytime soon there's a safety rating and using the big companies I think what what Cisco is able to bring is a there's a level of financial stability that other companies may not have and so they can weather the storm for a long time so you know I it's easy to say going to Cisco is the safe bet it has been for a long time but but i but I think it's also the smart bet I think they're they're able to continue to invest in things maybe smaller companies more people do yeah my question on Cisco a big fan of their strategy have been vocal about that for a while my question on Cisco want to be critical is to say how fast can you get that development going show the software value in market show customers a growth trajectory that they can execute on it can advantage the network policy intelligence if they could do that they're gonna be in good shape you agree yeah I think one of the challenges though is the transformation of their customer base do and that's where the work Suzy we've been doing in the dev that teams so important like if if they were to shift their whole strategy over at the developer folks talk word today I think that would largely put them in a position or trouble because the engineers that work with the stuff and the resellers that work with the stuff aren't they don't really have the skill sets they advantage that right so last year Suzy we she really talked a lot about the growth a definite this year they came out with in Barcelona this year they they came up with a bunch of certifications for dev net now there they were actually coming out with a number of a partner certifications as well so the resellers can get certified but I think it's important that they continue to push their engineer base into gaining these new skills I'll give you an interesting data point for my research and that's you know that only about a quarter of networking engineers has ever made an API call right and so you look at all Cisco's new gear it's all API driven and so if you want to do something as simple as say get all the IP addresses in your network you can just use an API call for that right the other way to do it is you do a show command and the CLI your screen scrape and you take a visual basic trip that you parse it you know and you get it that way right so the API map using those is a lot easier and so I think Cisco's got a good strategy with Deb net they've grown that face a lot it's still relatively small you know it's under a million people and you think of the overall size the Cisco customer user base point that's where they gonna put some effort right more and more out driving adoption to them now well I think you're smarter than I think you're researching them they must be listening to you because they haven't really tried to jam that down their throats they've been very humble about it and I think a million is pretty damn good number I think Cisco again to your point they're bringing people into the water the low end first before you you go to the deep end so swim with the bubble if you will with definite what they did was they assumed the engineer had no knowledge of software because I think at first when they put the lot of the programs a place they assumed people would have some knowledge of how to code right and and I also think the industry did them a bit of a disservice we used her there was a lot of stuff written in the media how every network engineer needs to become a software developer well they don't have to summer get make them software developers but they at least have to come software power ease right so do your job through software but you don't have to be a developer and that's where definite really when it really matured is that diverge down to past developer engineer who's your saw common software skills and then you break down a specialist after that and so they've they've actually helped with the maturity of that they've changed their certification programs for reflect that and I think Devin that really is a big be and if they can transition that engineer base then it helps the adoption of the new on these I want to get your final thoughts on this segment on multi-cloud obviously it would be a really great win for it creates of interoperability strictly with the network intelligence cisco could bring to the table and others you got startups out there like aviatrix and others and vmware with nsx trying to get that for the security fabric a lot of action going on with multi cloud and networking your thoughts what does your research tell you what's gonna transpire how do you see that market playing out in my research shows that little R ad percent of companies prior to Co vid had multi-cloud on the roadmap and I'm assuming that's that's gone up I haven't actually done a survey since then um one of the I think it's funny koban exposed a lot of things from a lot of vendors right and I think one of the things that is is shown cracks in the cloud yeah you look at some of the the data and how many outages Microsoft had Google had some strains AWS has held up pretty well under the strain of of a lot of the higher utilization when coated but they've been building a lot of capacity into theirs as well so I think from a customer perspective it makes sense you don't want to put all your eggs in one basket some cloud providers are stronger in some regions they each have different their own different cloud platforms other private cloud platforms and the problem is is if you decide if you decide to go multi-cloud you can't use the cloud providers tools right so if I use an AWS load balancer that works great in AWS but it's not gonna help me with Azure or GCE similarly if I use GCP tools I can't extend that out the azure so something needs to connect those and be able to five security and policy and that's where multi cloud comes from and you're right there's some good startups there I think um the difference with Cisco this time versus the Sdn world was when as the ends came about I think Cisco didn't want that to happen and I think they actually actively worked against us the end and I've talked to chuck Robbins about that he said you'll never ever see Cisco do that again if something is good for the customers they want to lead that transition and so Cisco's been very active in multi focking and given they've got the install base already I do think they will help bring this long but there are some good stir yeah it's interesting Sdn really wasn't ready for primetime even when VMware bought in this era hey when it was still there I didn't have a lot of revenue it had a future VMware claims that's the saves and NSX was saved by a Sdn some people say was completely rewritten final thoughts on outlook and you see coming out of Ovid obviously it's been well reported we've been reporting VPNs have been under provision that was a blind spot bought a blind spots and disruption that wasn't forecasted in the classic sense there was no there was no you know hurricane there was no flood it was a covin invisible disruption yeah and there's no impact right like even with when you think of what happened with the the floods in New York and 9/11 people knew that they'd eventually go back and so business continuity and disaster recovery was a temporary thing and I can I set up a data center to work for a couple months so I can go back to New York that's not the case with koban where we're trying to manage for an undefined endpoint which is extremely difficult for an IT perspective I do think that Kogan again has highlighted the value of the network I think we'll see a lot of transition from VPN to sd when I think that's that's certainly good I think the rise in video will also cause a Wi-Fi upgrade cycle we'll get back to the office and I think you'll see a lot of focus on programmability and agility because I don't believe we're gonna see everybody return to the office was like one big bang John I think we're more likely to see is the future work to be almost like when you and I were in college we do a bunch of stuff at home we go to the campus when we have classes and when we want to meet people similarly we'll go to work when we have meetings and then in between meetings we'll go find an open place to work but in general we'll do a lot of work a lot more work from home in fact my research shows 93 percent of the business leaders I interviewed said they expect to see at least a 30 percent increase in the work from home post Kovan right so we're gonna have a lot more people doing that but it's not gonna be everyone working for home everybody work in the office it's gonna be a hybrid of the two people are gonna come and go and that bribes the need for agility and today's networks really not that agile and so I need I want to go back to college if we do thirsty happy hours do I mean have the whole week or the stupid stuff it's the final point you mentioned SP when I was talking with Dave Volante SP Minutemen just last week and I said you know this SD win today is not your grandfather's sdn meaning SP where it's changed a lot it's basically the internet now so what was the modern update definition of SD grin I mean it used to be you connect the wide area network you can have some campus you'd do some networking what is it now what's the same name but it's yeah what is it your journey the technology if you look at the adoption of anything right the first wave of stuff is to make the new stuff look like the old stuff so we put VoIP in we made it look a lot like TDM when we had cloud we lifted and shift it and how did we didn't really enjoy wraps and then we eventually get smart and think what can I do with the new thing that I can't do the old thing and so a lot of early SD win deployments were simply just replacements for MPLS and they were put in to save a bit of money but now companies are getting smarter they're thinking about what can I do with my SD win that I couldn't do before so there's a lot more tighter integration with security I think as companies but SD win in and and think about what the win is today John it used to be corporate offices and data centers I think it's everybody's house right and so being able to extend your win at the single people out to planes trains and automobiles you remember that movie but those are all getting connected as well people's back acts fan kiosk those are all becoming way endpoints right so that's where you need to embed more security in the network and so I think that's a transition we've seen into that see you and I think the technology has matured to the point where it's getting easier to deploy faster to flow and you're right we can use the internet for transport in some cases some will still keep there still be a lot of MPLS out there but I do think we wind up in this hybrid world but clearly then the time has never been better for for SD win I will see a rule of curve for that because it's the only way to extend the win the people's homes the things the cars and really anything that's connected you know that's such a great point and I think this is a real new once in the industry it's a whole nother rebirth of the category because the aperture is brighter you got policy you've got reliability and get security built in this is key key Johnny H salt key yeah yeah whole concept the AI ops becomes real because we're collecting data and we're able to use AI to automate operations so Z's we call it s T win 2.0 that's what you got to do we got making an acronym out of this come on we can't just saw s T when it is SD win - righto because it's the next it's that it's it's the second wave of it we're actually thinking about how to transform our companies so the the John Chambers quote of transition for transversus transformation is apropos because the like I said a lot of the waves that that Cisco went through early on was we transition the market and then we transform right and so SD win so far has been transitional moving away from the old thing but now in strength and defense formed where our entire network operates these gradients that always a pleasure to talk to you get the straight scoop for the signal right there from all the noise in the industry now more than ever people are gonna be focused on critical project so thanks for your insight as DK now can research great stuff and we'll keep keep following you in great guest thank you come on thanks John first burger okay cute conversation here remote we're doing our part either at home and studio quarantine in this is the cube virtual virtualization has come to the cube will do will do whatever it takes to get the content out there Z's thanks so much for coming I appreciate thanks for watching on John Currier [Music]

>> From Seattle, Washington, it's theCUBE. Covering KubeCon and CloudNativeCon North America 2018. Brought to you by Red Hat. The Cloud Native Computing Foundation and it's ecosystem partners. [techno Music] >> Okay, welcome back everyone. It's theCUBE's live coverage in Seattle for KubeCon and CloudNativeCon 2018. I'm John Furrier with theCUBE. Stu Miniman. Breaking down all the action. Talking to all the thought leaders, all the experts, all the people making it happen. We're here with Aparna Sinha who's the group product manager, Kubernetes, Google Cloud. Also one of the power women of the Cloud at Google, according the Forbes. I wrote the story. Great to see you again. >> Thank you, great to be here with you. >> Thanks for coming on. >> CUBE alumni. Great to have you on. I want to get your prospective. One when you've seen a lot of action, certainly overseeing the group engineering team at Google and all the Kubernetes action. A lot of contribution, a lot of activity, that you guys are leading. >> Yes. >> And quite frankly enabling and contributing to the community. So, congratulations and thanks for that work. Kubernetes certainly looking good. People are pumped up. >> Very much. >> 8,000 people. A lot of activity. A lot of new things around that you guys are always kind of bringing into, the Geo, knative, a lot things. You gave a key note. What's your focus here this year? What's the message from Google? >> Yeah, well as you pointed out, this is the largest KubeCon ever. 8,000 people, 2,000 on the wait list. And people are telling me here that this is the... This is here to stay, right? It's in the early majority going to the mainstream very much like you kind of think about virtualization was 10 years ago. So that's the momentum that I'm seeing here, that I'm hearing here. My keynote was about the community. Thanking the community first of all. So I talked about how open-source really, success in contingent on contribution. And so, I started by showing the contribution over the last one year, the companies that are contributing. And 80% of contributions are by at least 10 entities. One of them is individual contributors. 40% percent I think was Google, which is still staggeringly high. And then the next highest was Red Hat. And so I think in many of the keynotes, we've been calling out the contributors because it's really important. 1.13, the 13th release of Kubernetes shipped last week. A lot of stability, a lot of GA features, and the uptake in the enterprise. The other thing I called out was just the amount of job opportunity in Kubernetes >> Yeah >> 230% growth in the last year. You see here so many customers that are here to talk about their experience. But also they're here to hire. >> Yeah. And there recruiters on the floor, so it's been I think a huge economic value add. And we feel very proud of that. >> Yeah, Aparna, great point. We've been talking about the end users. I always loved... There's a job board right outside the hall here and it's just covered. Big giant white board there. Bring us inside a little bit. I mean Google's always fascinating people. What's the hiring situation there? What's your team lookin' like? Is anybody smart enough to actually go work there? >> Google, I think we've been very, very fortunate in that we've had the original board team that started the Kubernetes project. And so we have a really, really deep bench because we've been running containers since the beginning. So now 15 years of experience with that, which many people tell me, I think that the reason that Kubernetes is so successful is because it's not new actually, right? >> Yeah >> It's been tried and true at scale. So, we have quite a bit of that, but we've been building this community and a lot of folks have been hired in through the community-- >> Yeah >> into Google. And really amazing, amazing people. So yeah. >> The thing about we had Brian Grant on yesterday and Tim Hockin -- Yes. >> Who was talking about some of those early board days. >> Yes. I want to ask you your point of about the hiring because I think this is a interesting dynamic. Open-source is key to your strategy. We've talked many times about how you guys are committed to open source, but what's interesting is not just net new jobs are available, we're seeing a revitalization around traditional roles like the network engineer under Kubernetes. Looking at the policy knobs that your folks pointed out that's... They think it's underutilized. And then on top of Kubernetes, new things are going on that's getting the app kind of server guy-- >> Yeah. >> Kind of energized. >> Yeah. >> It's kind of enabling a lot of thing, actions that's transforming existing jobs. >> That's right. >> And bringing new ones. >> Talk about that dynamic because you see it from both sides. >> Yes >> You've got SREs, site reliable engineers. >> Yes >> You've got developers. But, Now enterprises are now trying to adopt... >> That's right >> You guys are hitting that note. Talk about that dynamic. >> That's right, so I've been talking to a lot of customers here, it's been non-stop. I've not been able to attend any talks or keynotes. And I'm seeing two things. One there's the kind of operations now called platform teams. And they're under tremendous pressure. They're doing incredible work. Incredible. And they're energized. They're really... So one of the customers I was talking to was moving from VMs on EC2 to containers on GCE on Kubernetes. Google Cloud. And in the last one year, they looked... Honestly, they looked miserable because they have worked so hard in doing that transfomation. Turning their application from a VM-based application into containers. But you could also see that they were so happy and so successful because of the impact that it's had. And so and then I asked them so like, "What is driving that?" This is different customer. What is driving that? And it's really... As soon they get that environment up and running, and this is a large enterprise bank that I was talking to, this other one, their developers are just all over it. And they have, they have hundreds of services running within six months. And they're like, "Well we just got this platform up. "We still have to figure how we're going to upgrade it." But it's... So those are the two constituents. The developers are happy. >> The integration and delivery changes the makeup of how teams work. So that's one thing we're seeing here. And the other one is just scale. >> Yeah. >> So that seems to be the area. Now I got to ask you, as you guys look at... As you guys are doing the work on the enterprise side, you guys, I know you're working hard, I talk to Jennifer a lot, Jennifer Lynn, as well and we've talked before, are used to doing the work. But there's still a lot more work done. Where do you guys see the work that this community value opportunities for participants in the eco-system to fill white spaces? Where are the value lines starting to be drawn? Can you comment? >> Yeah, so I see two or three different areas. One of the areas is of course hardening. And that's why Janet Quill gave the keynote about "Kubernetes is boring and that's a good thing". And that's been something we've been working on for the last year at least. Adding a lot more security capabilities. Adding a lot more just moving everything to GA, right? Adding a lot more hooks in the enterprise storage and into enterprise networking. Building up the training and building up the partners that'll do the implementations. All of those things I think are very, very healthy. >> Yeah. >> Cause I see them. You probably talked to the CNCF. They're helping a lot with the certification and the training. So that's one piece of enterprise adoption. I think the other piece is the developer experience. And that's where a lot of the talks here, my key note as well, I demoed Istio and Knative on top of GKE. The developer experience is ultimately this whole thing. My perspective, this whole thing is about making your developers more productive. And developers have been driving this transition. Again going back to those customer examples. So that's getting a lot easier. >> Yeah, Aparna, I'd love you to talk a little about Knative. So, I know the excitement is there. Products only been around for five months. I remember at your show last summer it was announce and roll. Trying to understand exactly what it is. It's like, wait, wait is serverless going to kill Kubernetes? And how does this fit? How does this work with all the various services in the Cloud? Maybe just understand where we are. >> Right. >> What it is, what it isn't. >> Right. >> Again, so the heritage of serverless, I'm going to go back to Google, right? We have the first serverless offering in the world like 10 years ago. And so that's based on containers. Underneath it's based on containers. That's why we knew that with Kubernetes that's the right foundation for building serverless. And it actually, I think, we sort of held back for the longest time. And a couple of years ago there were one, two, and then 15, and then 17 serverless frameworks that just kind of all popped up around Kubernetes, on top of Kubernetes. I remember the first demo in the community. Here's this serverless piece. And at some point, a little bit over a year ago we decided that actually serverless is really important to our customers, to our users. The majority of Kubernetes tends to be on-prem, actually. And so it's important to them to have serverless capabilities on-prem. So then we need to make sure it's stable and it's something that's standard. >> I think it's a really important point... I talked to some people that are in the serverless ecosystem that is living on a AWS and they say, "You can't build serverless on-prem "because then you're racking "and stacking and dealing with it." And it's not... We know there's servers underneath of it and it's just system calls and how we consume that. But maybe explain the nuances to how this is important and we understand it. >> Yeah. >> There's not like a solution out there. >> Yeah. >> Server meshes, there's a lot of options out there right now. >> Yeah. >> So. >> A lot of things, because this is an open-source community, a lot of things come from the users. So when the user says, "You know what, actually need "the serverless capability on-prem. "Why? "Because I've got this developer group and I don't want "them to have to muck with the infrastructure. "I don't want them to have access to the infrastructure. "I want to just give them a simple interface "where they're going to write their applications "and the rest is taken care of for them." Right? And then I want to be able to bill them on a per-use basis. So, it's... Yeah there's someone managing the server. Someone building actually the severless capability and that's the platform team. That's the guys that I talked about that are working very hard these days happily. But, working very hard. >> And these are the new personas, by the way-- >> Yeah. >> In the enterprise. This is new kind of new re-architecting of how enterprises are creating value. These new platform teams. >> Right. >> This is the opportunity. Well I got to ask you, you know everyone that watches theCUBE knows I'm a big fan of scale. Love Amazon scale. I love Google scale. I love the enterprise market. And I want to get your thoughts... I want you to take a minute to explain the culture at Google Cloud. Because it's a separate building. Give you an opportunity to share. But you guys are working hard to go after the enterprise. It's not like a new thing. But the enterprise is interesting. It's not so much the best technology that wins. It's grit. It's almost like a street fight. You got to go out. You got to win those battles. Get all the work done. Hit those features. You can't just roll into town and say we've got great technology. We're Google. You guys recognize this. And I want you to share the culture you guys are building and how you guys are attacking the enterprise. What's the guiding principles? What are some of the core tenants? >> Yeah, yeah. So you know my entire life has been spent in enterprise software. >> Yeah. >> I do think that enterprises respect Google Cloud. I work very closely with them. And they respect certainly the engineering prowess. Like, "Wow. I need that." >> Yeah. Right? Especially you see all these enterprises that are being transformed by technology. Their industry is being transformed by technology. Whether that's in transportation, or it's in retail, or it's in media. And they want the best. They want the latest. Right? And they also don't necessarily have the skills, like you said, right? So they're looking for a partner that'll both help them scale up but also provide them all of that guidance. And the one thing you asked about culture at Google. I think we are a revolutionary company. We are willing to do lots of things. Lots of things that you wouldn't expect. And that's why you saw GK on-prem from my team, right? The first, kind of, Kubernetes on-prem offering from a cloud provider. Managed by a cloud provider. And that's really... I mean we've seen tremendous, tremendous interest in that. Tremendous feedback from our users and new customers. People that hadn't thought about it. Hadn't thought about Google, necessarily before that have said, "Wow. If you are going to come and help me on-prem "with this, I'm ready. "Give it to me now. "Because I trust you and I know I want to go to the Cloud. "So it's the right step for me. "You have the right incentives." Right? "And you're the open cloud, which is important to me "because I may want to be multi cloud." So that's the piece that is... >> You got the enterprise chops. You've spent your whole career there. I know Jennifer as well. >> Yes. >> A lot of people you guys have hired. >> Right. >> The good news is you've got a market that's changing. So you don't have to come in and replicate the old IT. So that's an opportunity at Google. How are you guys attacking that, that beachhead? Because you have the check. What's the vibe? What's the grit? What's it like... How you guys attacking the enterprise? What do you see as opportunities knowing the enterprise of old-- >> Yeah >> As it shifts to new kind of method? >> Yeah. >> What's the core? >> I think about the problems the users are having. I think about what is the problem the customer is facing. And so... And then breaking that down and solving that for them. I mean that's what's important, right? And so some of the problems I see is one they need a developer platform. And the developer platform sometimes cannot be in the Cloud. When I talk to large financial institutions, there's so much compliance and regulation and things that have to be on-prem. That it has to be on-prem. And they try to move to the Cloud and some things will do it. But the majority, like 90% is on-prem. And so they need an agile development environment and there's no holding it back. Because, like I said, there's all this transformation. Their developers need that environment today. So you have to provide that. That's one use case. We provide an on-prem development and agile development environment. Best in class. Your developers are super happy. Your business is going to do well. The other thing I see, and I see this a lot in retail, but also in hospitality at some of these very kind of brick and mortar enterprises is the edge. They need a solution at their edge location. Thousands, these are thousands of branch locations. We've even got this use case with Chick-fil-A, right? And a lot of times this is... A lot of different use cases, but a lot of time the common thing is that they're collecting data. They're doing some processing at that site and then they're doing further processing in the Cloud. And so it's a connected, but an intimately, it's not always connected.... Intimately connected environment. So that's the second big use case. Edge retail or just edge. There's so many... For me, it's one of the most exciting. There's so many examples of that. >> Awesome. >> Aparna, first of all, just so many goodness I want to say thank you to Google because everything from I heard at the show Google wasn't giving out swag because it actually went to charitable givings instead of spending that money. One of the things we always look is open-source is, how much more value is being created for the eco-system not just the vendor that started it. And it is a really tough balance. We've seen it fail many times. Do you step too far back? And how much do you engage? How do you strike that bound? For the last five to 10 years, we've been saying, "Where is the independent place where we can have that "conversation about cloud?" We think found it at this show. I mean we've been here for three years now. Google Cloud, phenomenal event. Our teams loves to be there, but this feels like overnight has turned into oh wait, here's the show we were looking at to have that conversation. To have that commons where we can come together and there's so many diversity of people, diversity of projects in here. Many which have very disconnected from original Kubernetes and everything, so. It's been fascinating to watch and have to imagine your team is... When you watch that first piece go and everything that's built around it. It's got to be amazing. >> My team loves this event. We have literally I think 300 people here. And a lot of them are core maintainers. Everybody is a contributor, but they are core maintainers of the Kubernetes project. The Istio project. The Knative project. And I think the best thing here is just interacting with our users. Because this is a developer, this is a developer conference, primarily. There's a lot of businesses here. >> Yeah >> With their kind of director level executives. But primarily it's an action-oriented hands-on audience. And you just... These customer meetings that I have, we review their architecture and we're like... It's an engineer to engineer conversation. >> Yep. >> And so how can we make that better? And sometimes they're contributing back and it makes the whole project better. >> Yeah. The thing, too, is it's an engineering, it's a developer conference, true. But what's interesting about that evolution as it modernizes, those end users are developers. >> That's right. >> And so the end user aspect of this show. >> That's right. >> Is the developer piece. >> That's right. >> It never used to be like that. Used to be COMDEX or some big event. >> Yeah. >> And then people just selling their stuff. >> Yeah. >> Doing business. The end user participation... >> Yes. >> Is not a consumption conversation, it's a contribution. >> Right. And end users are all over the spectrum of sort of really, really hands-on. Very, very smart to just give me something that works and I respect all of that, right? And we were actually very far here in terms of GKE. Giving you something that you really don't need to get in, that's fully managed, right? But then on the other hand we had Uber on stage earlier today in their keynote talking about how they've built all of this advanced capability on GKE. And that's a power user. That's using all their capabilities. Like custom additions and an operator. And it's just really gratifying I think for us to work with them and for us to see the user base as well as the community. So the ecosystem. Google. I thinks it's very important for us to have and create economic opportunity for our partners. And you'll see that with GKE on-prem. We're partnering heavily on that one. And you'll see that also in our marketplace. Our Kubernetes marketplace. So many of the companies that have come out of this ecosystem are now part of selling through Google Cloud. >> Aparna, thank you for your time. I know you've had to move some things around to come here. Great to have you on. I love your leadership at Google, it's phenominal. You've got the enterprise chops building out heavily over there. Congratulations. And for more CUBE interviews check out theCUBE dot net. You can check out Aparna's other good news. Of course search her name on Forbes. I wrote a story about her featuring her. Talking about her background and her passion. Always great to have her on theCUBE and get some commentary from Google. Of course, theCUBE is breaking down live coverage. Been there from the beginning of KubeCon and now CloudNativeCon, the Linux Foundation. Bringing you all the analysis and insight. Be back with more coverage after this short break. [Techno Music]

>> Live from New York, it's theCUBE, covering theCUBE New York City 2018. Brought to you by SiliconANGLE Media and its ecosystem partners. >> Hello, everyone, welcome back. This is theCUBE live in New York City for theCUBE NYC, #CUBENYC. This is our ninth year covering the big data ecosystem, which has now merged into cloud. All things coming together. It's really about AI, it's about developers, it's about operations, it's about data scientists. I'm John Furrier, my co-host Dave Vellante. Our next guest is Brent Compton, Technical Marketing Director for Storage Business at Red Hat. As you know, we cover Red Hat Summit and great to have the conversation. Open source, DevOps is the theme here. Brent, thanks for joining us, thanks for coming on. >> My pleasure, thank you. >> We've been talking about the role of AI and AI needs data and data needs storage, which is what you do, but if you look at what's going on in the marketplace, kind of an architectural shift. It's harder to find a cloud architect than it is to find diamonds these days. You can't find a good cloud architect. Cloud is driving a lot of the action. Data is a big part of that. What's Red Hat doing in this area and what's emerging for you guys in this data landscape? >> Really, the days of specialists are over. You mentioned it's more difficult to find a cloud architect than find diamonds. What we see is the infrastructure, it's become less about compute as storage and networking. It's the architect that can bring the confluence of those specialties together. One of the things that we see is people bringing their analytics workloads onto the common platforms where they've been running the rest of their enterprise applications. For instance, if they're running a lot of their enterprise applications on AWS, of course, they want to run their analytics workloads in AWS and that's EMRs long since in the history books. Likewise, if they're running a lot of their enterprise applications on OpenStack, it's natural that they want to run a lot of their analytics workloads on the same type of dynamically provisioned infrastructure. Emerging, of course, we just announced on Monday this week with Hortonworks and IBM, if they're running a lot of their enterprise applications on a Kubernetes substrate like OpenShift, they want to run their analytics workloads on that same kind of agile infrastructure. >> Talk about the private cloud impact and hybrid cloud because obviously we just talked to the CEO of Hortonworks. Normally it's about early days, about Hadoop, data legs and then data planes. They had a good vision. They're years into it, but I like what Hortonworks is doing. But he said Kubernetes, on a data show Kubernetes. Kubernetes is a multi-cloud, hybrid cloud concept, containers. This is really enabling a lot of value and you guys have OpenShift which became very successful over the past few years, the growth has been phenomenal. So congratulations, but it's pointing to a bigger trend and that is that the infrastructure software, the platform as a service is becoming the middleware, the glue, if you will, and Kubernetes and containers are facilitating a new architecture for developers and operators. How important is that with you guys, and what's the impact of the customer when they think, okay I'm going to have an agile DevOps environment, workload portability, but do I have to build that out? You mentioned people don't have to necessarily do that anymore. The trend has become on-premise. What's the impact of the customer as they hear Kubernetese and containers and the data conversation? >> You mentioned agile DevOps environment, workload portability so one of the things that customers come to us for is having that same thing, but infrastructure agnostic. They say, I don't want to be locked in. Love AWS, love Azure, but I don't want to be locked into those platforms. I want to have an abstraction layer for my Kubernetese layer that sits on top of those infrastructure platforms. As I bring my workloads, one-by-one, custom DevOps from a lift and shift of legacy apps onto that substrate, I want to have it be independent, private cloud or public cloud and, time permitting, we'll go into more details about what we've seen happening in the private cloud with analytics as well, which is effectively what brought us here today. The pattern that we've discovered with a lot of our large customers who are saying, hey, we're running OpenStack, they're large institutions that for lots of reasons they store a lot of their data on-premises saying, we want to use the utility compute model that OpenStack gives us as well as the shared data context that Ceph gives us. We want to use that same thing for our analytics workload. So effectively some of our large customers taught us this program. >> So they're building infrastructure for analytics essentially. >> That's what it is. >> One of the challenges with that is the data is everywhere. It's all in silos, it's locked in some server somewhere. First of all, am I overstating that problem and how are you seeing customers deal with that? What are some of the challenges that they're having and how are you guys helping? >> Perfect lead in, in fact, one of our large government customers, they recently sent us an unsolicited email after they deployed the first 10 petabytes in a deca petabyte solution. It's OpenStack based as well as Ceph based. Three taglines in their email. The first was releasing the lock on data. The second was releasing the lock on compute. And the third was releasing the lock on innovation. Now, that sounds a bit buzzword-y, but when it comes from a customer to you. >> That came from a customer? Sounds like a marketing department wrote that. >> In the details, as you know, traditional HDFS clusters, traditional Hadoop clusters, sparklers or whatever, HDFS is not shared between clusters. One of our large customers has 50 plus analytics clusters. Their data platforms team employ a maze of scripts to copy data from one cluster to the other. And if you are a scientist or an engineer, you'd say, I'm trying to obtain these types of answers, but I need access to data sets A, B, C, and D, but data sets A and B are only on this cluster. I've got to go contact the data platforms team and have them copy it over and ensure that it's up-to-date and in sync so it's messy. >> It's a nightmare. >> Messy. So that's why the one customer said releasing the lock on data because now it's in a shared. Similar paradigm as AWS with EMR. The data's in a shared context, an S3. You spin up your analytics workloads on AC2. Same paradigm discussion as with OpenStack. Your spinning up your analytics workloads via OpenStack virtualization and their sourcing is shared data context inside of Ceph, S3 compatible Ceph so same architecture. I love his last bit, the one that sounds the most buzzword-y which was releasing lock on innovation. And this individual, English was not this person's first language so love the word. He said, our developers no longer fear experimentation because it's so easy. In minutes they can spin up an analytics cluster with a shared data context, they get the wrong mix of things they shut it down and spin it up again. >> In previous example you used HDFS clusters. There's so many trip wires, right. You can break something. >> It's fragile. >> It's like scripts. You don't want to tinker with that. Developers don't want to get their hand slapped. >> The other thing is also the recognition that innovation comes from data. That's what my takeaway is. The customer saying, okay, now we can innovate because we have access to the data, we can apply intelligence to that data whether it's machine intelligence or analytics, et cetera. >> This the trend in infrastructure. You mentioned the shared context. What other observations and learnings have you guys come to as Red Hat starts to get more customer interactions around analytical infrastructure. Is it an IT problem? You mentioned abstracting the way different infrastructures, and that means multi-cloud's probably setup for you guys in a big way. But what does that mean for a customer? If you had to explain infrastructure analytics, what needs to get done, what does the customer need to do? How do you describe that? >> I love the term that industry uses of multi-tenant workload isolation with shared data context. That's such a concise term to describe what we talk to our customers about. And most of them, that's what they're looking for. They've got their data scientist teams that don't want their workloads mixed in with the long running batch workloads. They say, listen, I'm on deadline here. I've got an hour to get these answers. They're working with Impala. They're working with Presto. They iterate, they don't know exactly the pattern they're looking for. So having to take a long time because their jobs are mixed in with these long MapReduce jobs. They need to be able to spin up infrastructure, workload isolation meaning they have their own space, shared context, they don't want to be placing calls over to the platform team saying, I need data sets C, D, and E. Could you please send them over? I'm on deadline here. That phrase, I think, captures so nicely what customers are really looking to do with their analytics infrastructure. Analytics tools, they'll still do their thing, but the infrastructure underneath analytics delivering this new type of agility is giving that multi-tenant workload isolation with shared data context. >> You know what's funny is we were talking at the kickoff. We were looking back nine years. We've been at this event for nine years now. We made prediction there will be no Red Hat of big data. John, years ago said, unless it's Red Hat. You guys got dragged into this by your customers really is how it came about. >> Customers and partners, of course with your recent guest from Hortonworks, the announcement that Red Hat, Hortonworks, and IBM had on Monday of this week. Dialing up even further taking the agility, okay, OpenStack is great for agility, private cloud, utility based computing and storage with OpenStack and Ceph, great. OpenShift dials up that agility another notch. Of course, we heard from the CEO of Hortonworks how much they love the agility that a Kubernetes based substrate provides their analytics customers. >> That's essentially how you're creating that sort of same-same experience between on-prem and multi-cloud, is that right? >> Yeah, OpenShift is deployed pervasively on AWS, on-premises, on Azure, on GCE. >> It's a multi-cloud world, we see that for sure. Again, the validation was at VMworld. AWS CEO, Andy Jassy announced RDS which is their product on VMware on-premises which they've never done. Amazon's never done any product on-premises. We were speculating it would be a hardware device. We missed that one, but it's a software. But this is the validation, seamless cloud operations on-premise in the cloud really is what people want. They want one standard operating model and they want to abstract away the infrastructure, as you were saying, as the big trend. The question that we have is, okay, go to the next level. From a developer standpoint, what is this modern developer using for tools in the infrastructure? How can they get that agility and spinning up isolated, multi-tenant infrastructure concept all the time? This is the demand we're seeing, that's an evolution. Question for Red Hat is, how does that change your partnership strategy because you mentioned Rob Bearden. They've been hardcore enterprise and you guys are hardcore enterprise. You kind of know the little things that customers want that might not be obvious to people: compliance, certification, a decade of support. How is Red Hat's partnership model changing with this changing landscape, if you will? You mentioned IBM and Hortonworks release this week, but what in general, how does the partnership strategy look for you? >> The more it changes, the more it looks the same. When you go back 20 years ago, what Red Hat has always stood for is any application on any infrastructure. But back in the day it was we had n-thousand of applications that were certified on Red Hat Linux and we ran on anybody's server. >> Box. >> Running on a box, exactly. It's a similar play, just in 2018 in the world of hybrid, multi-cloud architectures. >> Well, you guys have done some serious heavy lifting. Don't hate me for saying this, but you're kind of like the mules of the industry. You do a lot of stuff that nobody either wants to do or knows how to do and it's really paid off. You just look at the ascendancy of the company, it's been amazing. >> Well, multi-cloud is hard. Look at what it takes to do multi-cloud in DevOps. It's not easy and a lot of pretenders will fall out of the way, you guys have done well. What's next for you guys? What's on the horizon? What's happening for you guys this next couple months for Red Hat and technology? Any new announcements coming? What's the vision, what's happening? >> One of the announcements that you saw last week, was Red Hat, Cloudera, and Eurotech as analytics in the data center is great. Increasingly, the world's businesses run on data-driven decisions. That's great, but analytics at the edge for more realtime industrial automation, et cetera. Per the announcements we did with Cloudera and Eurotech about the use of, we haven't even talked about Red Hat's middleware platforms, such as AMQ Streams now based on Kafka, a Kafka distribution, Fuze, an integration master effectively bringing Red Hat technology to the edge of analytics so that you have the ability to do some processing in realtime before back calling all the way back to the data center. That's an area that you'll also see is pushing some analytics to the edge through our partnerships such as announced with Cloudera and Eurotech. >> You guys got the Red Hat Summit coming up next year. theCUBE will be there, as usual. It's great to cover Red Hat. Thanks for coming on theCUBE, Brent. Appreciate it, thanks for spending the time. We're here in New York City live. I'm John Furrier, Dave Vallante, stay with us. All day coverage today and tomorrow in New York City. We'll be right back. (upbeat music)

>> Narrator: Live from Vancouver, Canada it's theCUBE covering OpenStack Summit North America 2018. Brought to you by Red Hat, the OpenStack Foundation, and its ecosystem partners. >> Welcome back to theCUBE, I'm Stu Miniman, with my cohost John Troyer, and happy to welcome to the program, fresh off the container keynote, Chris Hodge, who's the senior strategic program manager with the OpenStack Foundation. Thanks so much for joining us. >> Oh yeah, thanks so much for having me. >> Alright, so short trip for you, then John's coming from the Bay Area, I'm coming from the east coast. You're coming up from Portland, which is where it was one of the attendees at the Portland OpenStack Summit, they said, "OpenStack has arrived, theCUBE's there." So, shout out to John Furrier and the team who were there early. I've been to all the North America ones since. You've been coming here for quite a while and it's now your job. >> I've been to every OpenStack Summit since then. And to the San Francisco Summit prior to that, so it was, yeah, I've been a regular. >> Okay so for those people that might not know, what's a Foundation member do these days? Other than, you know, you're working on some of the tech, you're giving keynotes, you know, what's a day in the life? >> Yeah, I mean, I mean for me, I feel like I'm really lucky because the OpenStack Foundation, you know, has you know, kind of given me a lot of freedom to go interact with other communities and that's been one of my primary tasks, to go out and work with adjacent communities and really work with them to build integrations between OpenStack and right now, particularly, Kubernetes and the other applications that are being hosted by the CNCF. >> Yeah, so I remember, and I've mentioned it a few times this week, three years ago we were sitting in the other side of the convention center, with theCUBE and it was Docker, Docker, Docker. The container sessions were overflowing and then a year later it was, you know, oh my gosh, Kubernetes. >> Chris: Yeah. (chuckles) >> This wave of, does one overtake the other, how do they fit together, and you know, in the keynotes yesterday and I'm sure your keynote today, talked a lot a bit about you know, the various ways that things fit together, because with open source communities in general and tech overall, it's never binary, it's always, it depends, and there's five different ways you could put things together depending on your needs. So, what are you seeing? >> I mean it's almost, yeah, I mean saying that it's one or the other and that one has to win and the other has to lose is actually kind of, it's kind of silly, because when we talk about Kubernetes and we talk about Docker, we're generally talking about applications. And, you know, and, with Kubernetes, when you're very focused on the applications you want to have existing infrastructure in place. I mean, this is what it's all about. People talk about, "I'm going to run my Kubernetes application "on the cloud, and the cloud has infrastructure." Well, OpenStack is infrastructure. And in fact, it is open source, it's an open source cloud. And so, so for me it feels like it's a very natural match, because you have your open application delivery system and then it integrates incredibly well with an open source cloud and so whether you're looking for a public cloud running on OpenStack or you're hosting a private cloud, you know, to me it's a very natural pairing to say that you have an OpenStack cloud, you have a bunch of integrations into Kubernetes and that the two work together. >> I think this year that that became a lot clearer, both in the keynotes and some of the sessions. The general conversation we've had with folks about the role of Kubernetes or an orchestration or the cloud layer, the application layer, the application deployment layer say, and the infrastructure somebody's got to manage the compute the network storage down here. At least, in this architectural diagram with my hands but, you can also, a couple of demos here showed deploying Kubernetes on bare metal alongside OpenStack, with that as the provider. Can you talk a little bit about that architectural pattern? It makes sense, I think, but then, you know, it's a apparent contradiction, wait a minute so now the Kubernetes is on the bare metal? So talk about that a little bit. >> So, I think, I think one of the ways you can think about resolving the contradiction is OpenStack is a bunch of applications. When you go and you install OpenStack we have all of these microsurfaces that are, some are user facing and some are controlling the architecture underneath. But they're applications and Kubernetes is well-suited for application delivery. So, say that you're starting with bare metal. You're starting with a bare metal cloud. Maybe managed by OpenStack, so you have OpenStack there at the bottom with Ironic, and you're managing your bare metal. You could easily install Kubernetes on that and that would be at your infrastructure layer, so this isn't Kubernetes that you're giving to your users, it's not Kubernetes that you're, you know, making world facing, this is internally for your organization for managing your infrastructure. But, you want OpenStack to provide that cloud infrastructure to all of your users. And since OpenStack is a big application with a lot of moving parts, Kubernetes actually becomes a very powerful tool, or any other container orchestration scheme becomes a very powerful tool for saying that you drop OpenStack on top of that and then all of a sudden you have a public cloud that's available for, you know, for the users within your organization, or you could be running a public cloud and providing those services for other people. And then suddenly that becomes a great platform for hosting Kubernetes applications on, and so the layers kind of interleave with one another. But even if you're not interested in that. Let's say you're running Kubernetes as bare metal and you're just, you want to have Kubernetes here providing some things. There's still things that OpenStack provides that you may already have existing in your infrastructure. >> Kubernetes kind of wants, it wants to access some storage. >> It wants to consume storage for example, and so we have OpenStack Cinder, which right now it supports you know, somewhere between, you know over 70 storage drivers, like these drivers exist and the nice thing about it is... You have one API to access this and we have two drivers within that, two Cinder drivers, you can either choose the, the flex volume storage or the container storage interface, the CSI storage interface. And Cinder just provides that for you. And that means if you have mixed storage within your data center, you put it all behind a Cinder API and you have one interface to your Kubernetes. >> So Chris, I believe that's one of the pieces of I believe it's called the Cloud Provider OpenStack. You talked about in the keynote. Maybe walk us through with that. >> Cloud Provider OpenStack is a project that is hosted within the, within the Kubernetes community. And it's... The owner of that code is the SIG OpenStack community inside of Kubernetes. I'm one of the three leads, one of the three SIG leads of that group and, that code does a number of things. The first is there's a cloud manager interface that is a consistent interface for Kubernetes to access infrastructure information in clouds. So information about a node, when a node joins a system, Kubernetes will know about it. Ways to attach storage, ways to provision load balancers. The cloud manager interface allows Kubernetes to do this on any cloud, whether it be Azure or GCE or Amazon. Also OpenStack. Cloud Provider OpenStack is the specific code that allows us to do that, and in fact we were, OpenStack was one of the first providers that existed in upstream Kubernetes you know, so it's kind of, we've been there since the very beginning, like this has been a, you know, an effort that's happened from the beginning. >> Somewhat non-ironically, right? A lot of that you've talked about, the OpenStack Foundation and this OpenStack Summit, a lot of the things talked about here are not OpenStack per se, the components, they are containers, there's the OpenDev Conference here, colocated. Is there confusion, there doesn't, I'm getting it straight in my head, Is there, was there, did you sense any confusion of folks here or is that, if you're in it you understand what's going on and why all these different threads are flowing together in kind of an open infrastructure conversation. It seems like the community gets it and understand it and is broadened because of it. >> Yeah, I mean, to me I've seen a tremendous shift over the last year in the general understanding of the community of the role all of these different applications play. And I think it's really, it's actually a testament to the success of all of these projects, in particular, we're building open APIs, we're building predictable behavior, and once you have that, and you have many people, many different organizations that are able to provide that, they're all able to communicate with one another and leverage the strengths of the other projects. >> All of a sudden, a standard interface, low and behold, right? A thousand flowers bloom on top. >> You know, it essentially allows you to build new things on top of that, new more interesting things. >> Alright, Chris, any interesting customer stories out of the keynote that we should share with the audience? >> I mean, there are so many fantastic stories that you can talk about, I mean, of course we saw the CERN keynote, where they're running managed Kubernetes on top of OpenStack. They have over 250 Kubernetes clusters doing research that are managed by OpenStack Magnum. I mean that's just, to me that's just tremendous. That this is being used in production, it's being used in science, and it's not just across one cloud, it's across many clouds and, You know, we also have AT&T, which has been working very hard on combining OpenStack and Kubernetes to manage their next generation of, of teleco infrastructure. And so, they've been big drivers along with SK Telecom on using Kubernetes as an infrastructure layer and then putting OpenStack on top of that, and then delivering applications with that. And so those are, you know we, the OpenStack Foundation just published on Monday a new white paper about OpenStack, how OpenStack works with containers and these are just a couple of the case studies that we actually have listed in that white paper. >> Chris, you're at the interface between OpenStack, which has become more mature and more stable, and containers, which, although it is maturing is still a little bit, is moving fast, right? Containers and Kubernetes both, a lot of development. Every summit, a lot of new projects, lot of new ways of installing, lot of new components, lot of new snaps. All sorts of things. What are you looking forward to now over the next year in terms of container maturity and how that's going to help us? >> So... People are talking so much now about security with containers and this is another really exciting thing that's coming out of our work because, you know, during one of the container keynotes, one of the things that was kind of driven home was containers don't contain. But, we're actually, at the OpenStack Foundation, we're kind of taking that on, and we, and my colleague Anne Bertucio has been leading a project, you know, has been community manager for a product called Kata Containers, which is, you know, you could almost call it containers that do contain. So I think that this is going to be really exciting in the next year as we talk more and more about we're building more generic interfaces and allowing all sorts of new approaches to solving complex problems, be it in security, be it in performance, be it in logging and monitoring. And so, I think, so the tools that are coming out of this and you know, creating these abstractions and how people are creatively innovating on top of those is pretty exciting. >> The last thing I'm hoping you can help connect the dots for us on is, when we talk Kubernetes, we're talking about multi-cloud. One of the big problems about Kubernetes, you know, came out of Google from you know, if you just say, "Why would Google do this?" It's like, well, there's that one really big cloud out there and if I don't have some portability and be able to move things, that one cloud might just continue to dominate. So, help connect OpenStack to how it lives in this multi-cloud world. Kubernetes is a piece of that, but you know, maybe, would love your viewpoint. >> Yeah, so. This is happening on so many levels. We see lots of large organizations who want to take back control of the cost of cloud and the cost of their cloud infrastructure and so they're starting to pull away from the big public clouds and invest more in private infrastructure. We see this with companies like eBay, we see it with companies like AT&T and Walmart, where they're investing heavily in OpenStack clouds. So that they have more control over the cost and how their applications are delivered. But you're also seeing this in a lot of... Like especially municipalities outside of the United States, you know, different governments that have data restrictions, restrictions on where data lives and how it's accessed, and we're seeing more governments and more businesses overseas that are turning to OpenStack as a way to have cloud infrastructure that is on their home soil, that you know, kind of meets the requirements that are necessary, you know that are necessary for them. And then kind of the third aspect of all of this is sometimes you just, sometimes you need to have lots of availability across, you know, many clouds. And you can have a private cloud, but possibly, in order to serve your customers, you might need public cloud resources, and federation across, across this, both in OpenStack and Kubernetes is improving at such an incredible pace that it becomes very easy to say that I have two, three, four, five clouds, but we're able to, we're able to combine them all and make them all look like one. >> Alright, well Chris Hodge, we really appreciate the updates on OpenStack and Kubernetes in all the various permutations. >> Yeah, it was great talking about it. This is, I mean this is the work that I love and I'm excited about, and this is, you know, I'm looking forward to it, I have fun with it and I keep looking forward to everything that's coming. >> Awesome, well we love to be able to share these stories, the technologists, the customers and everything going on in the industry. For John Troyer, I'm Stu Miniman, back with more coverage here from OpenStack Summit 2018 in beautiful Vancouver, British Columbia. Thanks for watching theCUBE. (tech music)

(upbeat guitar music) >> Announcer: Live from Los Angeles, it's theCUBE. Covering Open Source Summit, North America, 2017. Brought to you by the Linux Foundation, and Red Hat. >> Okay, welcome back, everyone, live here in LA for theCUBE's exclusive coverage of the Linux Foundation's Open Source Summit North America. I'm John Furrier with Stu Minimam. Our next guest is Aaron Welch who's the Co-founder and Head of Product at Packet. Welcome to theCUBE. >> Thank you. >> Innovation's booming, you're a product guy, so we'll have that product-founder perspective of the collision between open source, accelerating at a massive scale, not just in the classic sense of all the normal projects that are getting more and more derivative projects, but new projects. You get the hyperledger, you got IOT, you got a massive amount of collision going on between software and your world is about hosting all that, and making sure that it's on premise support with low latency at a multi-cloud architectures, so there's an architectural battle happening while open source is massively accelerating. >> Yeah. >> What's your take and reaction to all that? >> Yeah, it's pretty interesting, and I think especially with the advent of containers on the scale that we're now currently seeing them. Obviously, that's a technology that has been around for quite a while, but I think Docker finally fixed the user experience side of that and made it comfortable for developers to deploy on. And so now all of a sudden you have a sort of portability on the application level that the cloud always sort of promised, but didn't ever really deliver. You never really ran a AWS instance image on GCE, for example. You never really had that real portability, especially across clouds, or across facilities. But now with the advent of containers, both your development pipeline and your CICD pipeline, once you've obviously made the investment to get that all running properly, is so much more accelerated, and so much more isolated from, and doesn't rely so much on the traditional infrastructure gatekeepers. So I think the development cycle is accelerating in that regard, but also has enabled people to get... come full-circle, and now you have the ability to deploy your workload on specialized hardware, and target that, specifically. So we're going from a very abstracted cloud environment, where it's a certain amount of RAM and CPU, you don't even necessarily know your clock speed, to "I want to push my SSL offload to my network card" and people are able to do that. So that's an interesting thing over the last, I would say, three or four years. >> So, Aaron, I want you to take us back to the founding of Packet. >> Aaron: Sure. >> What was, why was it going, >> Why would we start >> we look at, >> A cloud company technology is changing so fast, we're talking about containers, heck, you're in New York City, we're probably going to be there. Serverless Conference is going to be there. Amazon's pushing the next generation. There's always the new, new, new, new thing, and there's companies that come out with the new, but the big guys are also jumping all over it. So where do you guys fit? What was the impotence for the start? >> Yeah, absolutely. Well, it's an interesting time. Most of the people when you're starting a company were like, "Are you completely out of your minds? Why would you start... That game has been won, you know, the cloud game."

>> Announcer: Live, from Silicon Valley, it's theCUBE. Covering Google Cloud Next '17. (electronic music) >> Welcome back to theCUBE's live coverage of Google Next, here from our Palo Alto studio. Happy to welcome to the program a first time guest, Udi Nachmany, who is the Head of Public Cloud at Ubuntu, thank you so much for joining us. >> Thanks for having me, pleasure to be here. >> All right, so I think it goes without saying, anybody that understands the landscape. Oh wait, there's Cloud, there's Linux, and especially Ubuntu, you know that's going to be there. Before we get into some of these, just tell us a little bit about your role there, and inside the company. >> Sure, I've been with Canonical for about three years, and I head up our partnership with the public clouds and the public IS providers as a whole. >> Yeah. >> That includes Google, AWS, Azure, and many, many others. >> So can you just clarify one thing for us, though? >> Yes. >> You just said Canonical, I introduced you as Ubuntu. >> Yes. >> Which is it? How should we be referring to these two? Well, we are very well known for our products. >> Yeah. >> We're best well known our corporate brand and we're very happy with both names. I usually introduce myself as Udi from Ubuntu, >> Yeah. >> Slash Canonical, so we're used to that. >> Totally understand. So public cloud, give us your view on the landscape today. We want to talk specifically about some of the Google stuff, but what's happening, and what are customers to you for public cloud, where does your suite play into that environment? >> Sure, Ubuntu is a very popular OS, and I think probably the most popular, the area where we're most dominant is public cloud, So a large majority of workload's on Google Cloud, Azure, the Linux part of Azure, AWS, and many, many other providers is running on Ubuntu. A lot of high-visibility services actual develop on Ubuntu. And we have responsibility in that. We need to make the Ubuntu experience predictable and optimized for that cloud platform and have people trust that experience, and believe in it. So that's our job on a technical level, and then on the second level, our job is to help users access support and tooling on top of that, to help them with the operational reality. Because what we see, unless you've probably heard it before from Canonical, what we see is it's great that the licensing cost, the cost of software has gone down, that's great news for everyone, however what a lot of people don't realize is that the cost of operations has gone up, it's skyrocketed, right? It's great Kubernetes is open source, but how do you actually spin up a cluster, how do you deal with this architecture, what does it mean for your business? So that's where we critically focus on private and public cloud. >> Yeah, it's funny. I did an interview with Brad Anderson a few years ago, and I'm like, "Customers are complaining "about licensing costs," and he starts ranting, he's like, "Licensing costs? Do you know that licensing is 6% of the overall cost of what you have?" So, look, we understand operations are difficult, so why is that such a strong fit? What do you bring, what customers do you serve that they're choosing you in such a large preponderance? >> I think the two things we do well, one is we're very well-embedded in the industry and in the community, and pretty much where people are developing something exciting, they're developing it on Ubuntu and they're talking to us through the process. We get a really good view of their problems and challenges, as well as our own. And the second thing is we have come up with tools and frameworks to allow a lot of that knowledge to be crowdsourced, right? So a good example is our modeling platform Juju, where you can very easily get from not knowing anything about, for example Kubernetes, into a position where you have a Kubernetes architecture running on a public cloud, like Google, or in another public cloud, or in bare metal, right? So because we tackled that, we assume that somebody's done this before you, somebody's figured this out. Take all that knowledge, encapsulate it in what we call a Charm, and take that Charm and build an architecture on Juju, on the canvas, or through the CLI. >> Okay, maybe could you compare, contrast, Google, of course, has some pretty good chops when it come to Kubernetes, they're really trying to make some of these offerings really as a service, so ya know, what does Google do, what do you do? How do they work together? Are you actually partnering there or are you just in the community just working on things? >> Google is in this in two different ways. One is they have their own managed service GKE, and that's great and I think people who are all in on Google, then that's a probably a good way to go. You get the expertise, and you get the things that you need. Our approach, as always, is cloud-neutral and we do believe in a hybrid world. We are members of the CNCF, we're silver sponsors of the CNCF, we're very well-embedded in the Kubernetes community, and we do ship a pure upstream Kubernetes distribution that we also sell support for. So we work very closely with Google, in general, Google Cloud, on making sure Ubuntu runs well on GCE, and on the other side, we work very closely with the Kubernetes community in that ecosystem, to again, make sure that it becomes very easy to work with that solution. >> Every player that you talk to in the ecosystem gives you a different story when it comes to multi-cloud environments. Google's message tends to be pretty open. I mean, obviously, with what they're doing with Kubernetes and being their position of where they are with customer adoption, they understand that a lot of people that are doing cloud aren't doing it on Google's Cloud, so they want to make it, you can live in both worlds, and we can support it. I listened to Amazon today, they're like, well, the future's going to be, we're all going to be there, we're going to hire another 100,000 people throughout all of Amazon in the US in the next 18 months. And Microsoft is trying to wrap their arms around a lot of their applications, IBM and Google are there, doing their thing. You've got visibility into customers in all of these environments due to your place in the stack. What are you seeing today? How is Google's adoption going? Is one question I have for you. And two, most customers, I would think, are running kind of multi-cloud, if you will, is the term, is that what you see? How many clouds are they doing? What are you seeing, kind of shifts in there, and I know I asked you three different questions there, but maybe you can dig into that and unpack it for us. >> Sure. I think, in terms of what they, at least top three clouds are saying, I think it's more important to look at what they're doing. If you think about the AWS and VMWare announcement, if you think about Azure Stack for Microsoft, I think those are clearly admissions that there is an OnPrem story and there's a hybrid story that they feel they need to address. They might believe in a world where everybody's happy on a public cloud, but they also live in reality. >> We're on a public cloud show, we're not allowed to mitt about OnPrem, right? Next you're going to, like, mention OpenStack. >> Absolutely. And then, in terms of Google, I think the interesting thing Google's doing, Google are clearly in that, even in terms of size and growth, I think they're in that top three league. They are, my impression is they are focused on building the services and the applications that will attract the users, right? So they don't have this blanket approach of you must use this, because this is the best cloud ever. They actually work on making very good, specific solutions, like for big data and for other things, and Kubernetes is a good example, that will attract people and get them into that specific part of Google Cloud platform, and hopefully in the future, using more and more. So I think they have a very interesting more product than approach, in that sense. >> Okay, so. >> I think I answered one question. >> Yeah, you touched on, yes customers have public and OnPrem. >> Yeah. >> Kind of hybrid, if you will. What about public cloud, you know? Most customers have multiple public clouds in your data or are they tending to get most of it on a single cloud, and might having a second one for some other piece? >> Yeah, I think right now, we're seeing, is a lot of a lot of people using perhaps a couple of platforms. Especially if they have certain size, I'm putting things like serenity and data prophesy aside, but just in terms of public cloud users, they might, again, use a specific platform for a specific service, they might use bare metal servers on software, for example, and VMs on the cloud. People are, by and large, the savvy users do understand that a mix is needed, which also plays to our strength, of course, with tools like Juju and Landscape, we allow you to really solve that operational problem, while being really substrate-agnostic, right? And you don't have to necessarily worry about getting logged in to one or the other. The main thing is, you can manage that, and you can focus on your app. >> All right. Udi, what's the top couple of things that customers are coming to you at these shows for? Where do they find themselves engaging with you as opposed to just, ya know, they're the developers, they're loving what you're doing? >> Sure. So the one thing I mentioned before is operations, right? I've heard about big data, I've heard about Kubernetes. What are my options? Do I hire a team? Do I get a consultant? Do I spend six months reading about this? And they're looking for that help, and I think Juju as an open-source tool and conjure-up as a developer tool that's also open-source. Really expand their options in that sense, and make it much more efficient for them to do that. And the second thing I'd say is Ubuntu is obviously very popular on public cloud, it's popular in production, so production workloads, business-critical workloads. And more and more organizations are realizing that they need to think long and hard about what that means in terms of getting the right support for it, in terms of things like security. An example, this week there was a kernel vulnerability in Linus Distros, I don't think it has a name yet, and we have something called the Canonical Livepatch service which patches kernel vulnerabilities, you can guess by the name. Now, people who have that through our support package have not felt a thing through this vulnerability. So I think we'll start to see more and more of these, where people have a lot of machines running on different substrates, and they're really worried about their up time and what a professional support organization can help them do to maintain that up time. >> It's real interesting times, being a company involved in open sourced, involved in open cloud. I want you to react, there was a quote that Vint Cerf gave at the Google event, I was listening, they had a great session Marc Andreessen and Vint Cerf. >> Yeah it was overcrowed. >> Go there. There was actually room if you got in, but I was glad I got up there, and Vint Cerf said, "We have to be careful about fast leading to instability." What's your take on that? I hear, when I go to a lot of these shows it's like, wow, I used to go from 18 months to six months to six weeks for my deployments. And public cloud will just update everything automatically, but that speed, ya know? As you were just talking, security is one of the issues, but there's instability, what's your take on that? And how are customers dealing with this increasing pace of change, which is the only constant that we have in our industry? >> Yeah, that's very true. I think, so from conversations with customers I've had recently. I've had a few where they've been sitting around and really deliberating what they need to do with this public cloud thing that they've heard about. Trying to buy time, eventually might lead to panicking. So a big financial institution that I met, maybe a month ago are trying to move all in to AWS, right? Whether that's a good thing or a bad thing for them, whether it's the right thing for them, I don't think that discussion necessarily took place, it may well be the best thing for them. But it's the kind of, they're rushing in to that decision, because they took so much time to try and understand. On the other hand, you see people who are much more savvy, and understand that in terms of the rate of change, like you said, it's a constant, so you need to take ownership of your architecture. You can't be locked in to one box that solves all your problems. You need to make sure you have the operation agility and you're using the right tooling, to help you stay nimble when the next big thing comes along. Or the next little thing, which is sometimes just as scary. And I think, again, that's where we're very well placed and that's where we can have very interesting conversations. >> Really interesting stuff. Actually, I just published a case study with City, talking about, they use AWS, I would say tactically would be the way to put it. They build, they have a number of locations where they have infrastructure. Speed and agility absolutely something they need as an outcome. Public cloud is a tool that they use at certain times, but not... There are things they were concerned about in how they build their architectures. Want to give you the last word. We see Canonical, Ubuntu at a lot of shows, you're involved in a lot of partnerships. What do we expect to see from your cloud group, kind of over the next six months, what shall we be keeping an eye on? >> I think on the private cloud side we've been doing some great work into the toggle vertical, and I think you'll see us expanding into more verticals, like financial services, where we've had some good early successes. >> Can I ask, is that NFV-related? It was the top discussion point that I had at OpenStacks on it last year was around NFV. Is it that specific or? >> Yeah, that's an element of it, yeah, but it's about, how do I make my privat cloud economically viable as AWS or Google or Azure would be? How do I free myself from that and enable myself to move between the substrates without making that trade off. So I think that's on the private cloud side. And I think you're going to see more and more crossover between the world of platforms and switches and servers and the world of devices, web-connected devices. We just finished MWC in Barcelona last week. I think we're in the top 13 or 14 bars in terms of visibility, way ahead of most other OS platforms. And I think that's because our message resonates, right? It's great to have five million devices out there, but how do you actually ship a security fix? How do you ship an update? How do you ship an app, and how do you commercialize that? When you have that size of fleet. So that's a whole different kind of challenge, which, again, with the approach we have to operations, I think we are already there, in terms of offering the solution. So I think you're going to see a lot of more activity on that front. And in the public cloud, I'd say it's really about continuing to work ever closer with the bigger public clouds so that you have optimized experiences on Ubuntu, on that public cloud, on your public cloud of choice. And you're going to see a lot more focus on support offerings, sold through those clouds, which makes a lot of sense, not everyone wants to buy from another supplier. It's much easier to get all your needs met through one centralized bill. So you're going to see that as well. >> Udi Nachmany, really appreciate you coming to our studio here to help us with our coverage of Google Next 2017. We'll be wrapping up day one of two days of live coverage here from the SiliconANGLE Media Studio in Palo Alto. You're watching theCUBE (electronic music)