>> Live from Bahrain it's theCUBE. Covering AWS Summit Bahrain. Brought to you be Amazon Web Services. >> Okay welcome back everyone, we are here in Bahrain for the special exclusive coverage of AWS Summit in the region and the big announcement of the AWS region being deployed here, and that's scheduled for Q1 roughly in 2019 as Teresa Carlson told us today on theCube. This is exciting opportunities for the Middle East and the region and around the world, a big spot where Amazon needed a region, of course we get all that coverage. Our next guest here is Lana Al Attar, founder of Gud Juju, and amazing logo on their card, empowering good, welcome to theCube, good to see you. >> Thank you for having me. >> Great to meet you. Yesterday, we were chatting, take a minute to explain what Gud Juju is, and we'll get to the meaning of the logo, if you can see it, I'm not sure if you can see it. Go ahead, what's Gud Juju? >> Gud Juju means good magic. We're a digital agency with a conscience, and how we do that is, a lot of our clients are people that have any kind of social good to them, so we're talking autism schools, or even normal schools, for example, they might charge money, but they're still in the industry of education, so it's fantastic. So, we help the little guys, we give them the technology they need, we empower them with technology, and that's what Gud Juju's about. On the other side of the spectrum, we also hire mostly women to do the development, so we hire and train. We hire refugees as well, and most recently we've signed a contract with a company and they provide us differently abled people, but they're fantastic designers and developers, so we've expanded into that as well. So, we pay our staff to be heroes, they are heroes day in and day out, and that's why I told you to wait (laughter) I can see you're impressed. >> Oh my god, I'm impressed. Well, no, I mean, there's a little bit of capitalism in there too that makes me go "Wow, that's a brilliant idea" (mumbles) In the labor market, but they're also helping people, and you're giving, tapping into passion. Taking a passion project, turning it into a business, help people, bring it all together, magic. >> Exactly. >> We help people >> That's good magic! >> Exactly, that's where the name Gud Juju comes from. >> Great mission, I love your mission, tell me about some of the things you're working on. >> Oh, okay, so most recently we're working on a "diversity on board" project, and initially it will be to, so we handle the tech part of this. A lot of people, they come to us and they try to partner with us, or even get us to complete their project. And, this particular project, if you go to any part of the world, usually in the Middle East, it'll be Middle Eastern men on the boards, and if you go to the States, it'll be middle aged white men on the boards, so there's no diversity. And that can be a problem for certain companies because if you want a 360 view, >> That's a big problem. It's a problem, period. I think, pretty much, people have figured out that diversity gives you more. >> Of course. >> Than not having it. >> You see things from different angles, because if you have the same kind of age group, and the same kind of gender, and the same everything, then you will not foresee the different challenges or opportunities that come by. So, this is a matchmaking portal that we're working on and it's soon to be launched, we're already testing internally in beta, and then then we're going to expand it into a private beta group, so that's one of the things that I'm working on, I recently, within the company, did one for the Women Power Summit, it was the largest summit in Bahrain for women, we had 500 woman attendees, and about 50 speakers, some of them were international as well, all women, men were welcome but a majority of them were women. And, just to really up the game in the gender equality. So we did the technology for that as well, so we did an online ticketing system, a credit card debit card payment and reservation, so it was a lot of fun. >> So who's coding all these apps? >> Oh, it's us, internally in the team. We have about nine in Bahrain, and most of them are women except for one, the digital marketer. >> People are getting down and dirty and coding away. >> Yes, though it does take a lot of training. So, in Bahrain, there's been a shift, so I also run a local development community, so the Google developer group in Manama, the Manama chapter, and we have like 651 members, so it's picking up. >> Wow. TensorFlow is like candy for developers. People love TensorFlow. >> We did do a few TensorFlow, yeah, definitely, AI, machine learning, deep learning, it's on right now. >> It really is. So how do you find all these people? Do they come to you, you got an open policy hiring refugees, >> Mm-hmm. >> So is there like a network, are you tapping your own network? >> So what we usually try to do is find people that are on the ground, and then they tell us "we have this kind of facility setup, so can you find us a job?" and I will never say no to people wanting jobs and to be very honest, in my line of work, especially when you're catering to charities and NGOs, you have an abundance of clients, it's overflowing. Because, they don't have the capital that they need in order to accomplish their projects. >> And even big firms are like conglomerates, now. We want to tap into these big agencies, you need to write a big check, >> Yeah, exactly. and you might not get the service you need anyway. And if you're an NGO, you don't get the love that the big commercial clients would get. >> Exactly. So, we cater to those kinds of clients. And also, we have, so our slogan is "empowering good". So we empower those who empower other people. We would never sell our clients something that they don't need, for example, we focus primarily on like, sometimes they want a website and an app and the whole nine yards, and they just need one page to accept payments and donations online, and that's all they really need, And some good branding. And so we make sure they focus that capital that they already have, and then, and really capitalize on that capital that they have, and give them the maximum bang for their buck, basically. >> That's awesome. Now, who do you work with? Do you have any partners, are you doing it solo, what are your... >> It's just me leading a staff of nine, and then we tap into a global market of ten, so we have associates that we bring on. I believe in the gig market, I don't think that having full-time staff long term is something that is sustainable. So I recently came back from China, from the annual meeting of champions, and the common theme over there, whether it was the future of work, the future of education, or even the future of... Wait, there was work, there was education, and there was one more. >> There was something. >> Yeah, oh, E-commerce, there we go. Digital, like online sales. And we noticed, there was a very big trend towards everything being digitalized. And with the exception of having community clubhouses, to have that human factor over there. So people love to still have that, you know, that engagement, that bonding, that I belong to that company, or I belong to that mission or vision, but everything is going online. So, I really believe that the gig market's going to, it's already started taking off. So, it's going to be a thing. >> And then being a part of community really brings the shared experiences together. And when you have that kind of co-creation or interaction, it makes people feel part of something bigger. And that's bonding. >> Exactly. So even if you look at e-commerce stores, a lot of them have their flagship stores, but they're not there for sales, because most of their sales get done online. They're there for giving that experience, so when you walk in a store, you have that experience. >> Yeah. >> That's super. What's the biggest thing that you've learned doing this? Is there anything that surprised you, things that jumped out at you, things you didn't expect, things that were successful, you go "wow, that was amazing", things you tripped over >> Oh, I tripped over a lot. (both laugh) It's constant tripping. >> Of course. Well that's how you learn! >> Yeah. So when I first started, I mean, people think like, okay, so you're going to help charities and you're going to help people and you're going to make money, how does that work? I learned very earlier on that people value what they pay for, so don't give things for free. You charge people, but charge them reasonably. So you say, okay I'll charge you this much for this kind of service, and this bit you can do by yourself. We'll give you the guidelines, we've done it over and over, and we'll tell you what your branding is, and then you go out, find the pictures, or write up the copywriting or whatever. So there was that, there was a lot of, so for example, "oh you can't hire refugees", and "why can't I hire refugees", there's a lot of trial and error. Obviously, you'd have people that will sell their (laughs) >> You got to give it a shot, give it a try. >> yeah, of course. And, the experience has been unbelievable. Some of them start out with wordpress development, and then end up with full-stack Javascript. Right? And you give people a chance, it's just like that example of professor Muhammed Yunus in Grameen bank, where they said "oh you can't loan to beggars" and he's like "why not?", and the default rate is so much more lower than the conventional banks. And they don't have any credit ratings! Right, so, I learned to not, I try not to follow the status quo, my mission is purely to empower people, whether I'm employing them, or I'm doing a project for them, so there's always that angle. And it's very different when you know what your values are. And you go in, so... >> And then you got having alignment. Well, Lana, thanks for coming on theCube this year, great to hear your story. >> Thank you. I think Bahrain is going to be a great tech scene. Obviously, I'm very encouraged by the entrepreneurs that I met. You can kind of spot an entrepreneur a mile away, they chirp a lot, they want to go faster, where's the cash, where's the collaboration? Not in a mean way, I don't mean that. And the other thing is that surprised me was Teresa's Women's Breakfast yesterday, that was blowing me away. How dynamic the group was, thought that was phenomenal. Just great to see this startup community here in Bahrain doing, just so much energy and support. >> We have a very tight ecosystem, I'm sure some of the other people probably have already mentioned this. Everybody talks to everybody, so you either, you're always one step away from whatever it is that you need. So, either you ask a person, they know exactly what you need, or they refer you to that person, and they give you like, name and number, right then and there, so, we're all intertwined. I think you've seen us all, how the ecosystem is amazing. >> It's important, and it's super important as communities with open source, you can see this when Amazon comes here, it's going to be a goodness of open source. >> Oh, it is! We're going to have navscale, we're going to have pull, new opportunities going to be coming in, >> Fantastic. it's going to be really, it should be a fun ride, I'm looking forward to covering you guys. >> I've been telling everyone that it is an amazing time to be a woman tech entrepreneur in this region. Amazing. >> Congratulations, and our doors are always open in Silicon Valley if you need anything. >> Awesome. >> Okay, there's more Cube coverage, stay with us! All day, wall to wall, stay with us. We got a couple more interviews, be right back after this short break. 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>> Narrator: Live from Vancouver, Canada it's theCUBE covering OpenStack Summit North America 2018. Brought to you by Red Hat, the OpenStack Foundation, and its ecosystem partners. >> Welcome back to theCUBE. I'm Stu Miniman here with my cohost here John Troyer. And we're at the OpenStack Summit 2018, here in Vancouver. One of the key topics we've been discussing, actually for a few years but under new branding, and it's really matured a bit is Edge Computing. So, we're really happy to welcome to the program two first time guests. We have Arturo Suarez, who's a program director with Canonical. We also have first time Kontron employee on, Eric Sarault, who's a product manager of software and services with, I believe Montreal based, is the headquarters. >> That's correct. >> Stu: So, thank you for allowing all of us to come up to Canada and have some fun. >> It's a pleasure. >> But we were all working during Victoria Day, right? >> Yeah. >> All right. Arturo, we know Canonical. So, we're going to talk about where you fit in. But, Eric, let's start with Kontron. I've got a little bit of background with them. I worked in really kind of the TelCo space back in the 90s. But for people that don't know Kontron maybe give us some background. So, basically, the entity here today is representing the communications business unit. So, what we do on that front is mostly TelCo's service providers. We also have strong customer base in the media vertical. But right now the OpenStack, what we're focusing on, is really on the Edge, mixed messages as well. So, we're really getting about delivering the true story about Edge because everybody has their own version of Edge. Everybody has their own little precisions about it. But down the road, it's making sure that we align everyone towards the same messaging so that we deliver a unified solution so that everybody understands what it is. >> Yeah. So, my filter on this has been Edge depends who you are. If you're a telecommunications vendor, when we've talked about the Cohen, it's the Edge of where they sit. If I'm an enterprise, it's the Edge is more like the IOT devices and sometimes there's an aggregation box in between. So, there's somewhere between two and four Edges out there. It's like cloud. We spent a bunch of years discussing it and then we just put the term to the side and go things. When you're talking Edge at Kontron, what does that mean? You actually have devices. >> We do. >> So, who's your customer? What does the Edge look like? >> So, we do have customers on that front. Right now we're working with some big names out there. Basically delivering solutions for 12 inch depth racks at the bottom of radio towers or near cell sites. And ultimately working our way up closer to what would look like, what I like to call a "closet" data center, if you will. Where we also have a platform with multiple systems that's able to be hosted in the environment. So, that's really about not only having one piece of the equation but really being able to get closer to the data center. >> All right. And Arturo, help bring us in because we know Canonical's a software company. What's the Edge mean to your customers and where does Canonical fit? >> So, Canonical, we take pride of being an ubiquitous platform, right? So, it doesn't matter where the Edge, or what the Edge is, right? There is an Ubuntu platform. There is an Ubuntu operating system for every single domain of compute, going from the very end of the Edge. That device that sits on your house or that drone that is flying around. And you need to do some application businesses, or to post on application businesses with, all the way to the core rank. Our OpenStack story starts at the core. But it's interesting as it goes farther from that core, how the density, it's an important factor in how you do things, so. We are able, with Kontron, to provide an operating system and tooling to tackle several of those compute domains that are part of the cloud where real estate is really expensive, right. >> Eric, so you all are a systems developer? Is that a fair two-word phrase? It's hardware and software? >> Basically, we do our original design. >> Okay. I know where I am. >> Manufacturing. >> So, I'm two steps away from hardware. So, I think of those as all systems. But you build things? >> Eric: Correct. >> And you work with software. I think for folks that have been a little more abstract, you tend to think, "Well, in those towers, there must be some bespoke chips and some other stuff but nothing very sophisticated." At this point we're running, or that your customers are running, full OpenStack installations on your system hardware. >> Eric: Correct. >> That's in there and it's rugged and it's upgradable. Can you talk a little bit about the business impact, of that sort of thing, as you go out and work with your customers? >> Certainly. So, one of the challenges that we saw there was really that, from a hardware perspective, people didn't really think about making sure that, once the box is shipped, how do you get the software on it, right. Typically, it's a push and forget approach. And this is where we saw a big gap, that it doesn't make any sense for folks to figure that on their own. A lot of those people out there are actually application developers. They don't have the networking background. They don't have a hardware engineering background. And the last thing they want to be doing is spending weeks, if not months, figuring out how to deploy OpenStack, or Kubernetes, or other solutions out there. So, that's where we leverage Canonical's tools, including MAAS and Juju, to really deploy that easily, at scale, and automated. Along with packaging some documentation, some proper steps on how to deploy the environment quickly in a few hours instead of just sitting there scratching your head and trying to figure it out, right. Because that's the last thing they want. The minute they have the box in their hand they already want to consume the resources and get up and running, so. That's really the mission we want to tackle that you're not going to see from most hardware vendors out there. >> Yeah, it's interesting. We often talk about scale, and our term, it's a very different scale when you talk about how fast it's deployed. We're not talking about tens or hundreds of thousands of cores for one environment. It's way more distributed. >> Yeah. It's a different type of scale. It's still a scale but the building block is different, right. So, we take the orders of magnitude more of points of presence than there are data centers, right. At that scale, and the farther you go again from the core, the larger the scale it is. But the building block is different. And the ability to play, the price of the compute is different. It goes much higher, right? So, going back again, that ability to condense in OpenStack, the ability to deliver a Kubernetes within that little space, is pretty unique, right? And while we're still figuring out what technology goes on the Edge, we still need to account for, as Eric said, the economics of that Edge play a big, big part of that gain, right. So, there is a scale, it's in the thousands of points of presence, in the hundreds of thousands of points of presence, or different buildings where you can put an Edge cloud, or the use-case are still being defined, but it's scaled on a different building block. >> Well, Arturo, just to clarify for myself, sometimes when you're looking at an OpenStack component diagram, there's a lot of components and I don't know how many nodes I'm going to have to run. And they're all talking to each other. But at the Edge, even though there's powerful hardware there, there's an overhead consideration, right? >> Yes. Absolutely and that's going to be there. And OpenStack might evolve but might not evolve. But this is something we are tackling today, right. That's why I love the fact that Kontron has also a Kubernetes cluster, right. That multi-technology, the real multi-cloud is a multi-technology approach to the Edge, right. There are all the things that we can put in the Edge and the access is set. It's not defined. We need to know exactly how much room you have, how you make the most out of each of your cores or each of the gigs of RAM out there. So, OpenStack obviously is heavy for some parts of the Edge. Kontron, with our help, has pushed that to the minimum Openstack viable that allows you not to roll a track when you need to do something on that location, right. As that is as effective as it can get today. >> Eric, can you help put this in a framework of cloud, in general. When I think of Edge, a lot of it data's going to need to go back to data centers or a public cloud, multiple public cloud providers. How do your customers deal with that? Are you using Kubernetes to help them span between public cloud and the Edge? >> So, it's a mix of both. Right now we're doing some work to see how you can utilize idle processing time, along with Kubernetes scheduling and orchestration capabilities. But also OpenStack really caters to the more traditional SDNN of the use-case out there to run your traditional applications. So, that's two things that we get out of the platform. But it's also understanding how much data do you want to go back to the data center and making sure that most of the processing is as close as possible. That goes along with 5G, of course. You literally don't have the time to go back to the data centers. So, it's really about putting those capabilities, whether it's FPGAs, GPUs, and those platform, and really enabling that as close as possible to the Edge, or the end user, should I say. >> Eric, I know you're in the carrier space. Can you talk a little, maybe Kontron in general? And maybe how you, in your career as you go the next decades looking at imbed-able technology everywhere, and what do you all see as the vision of where we're headed? >> Oh, wow. That's a hell of a question. >> That's a big question to throw on you. >> I think it's very interesting to see where things are going. There's a lot of consolidation. And you have all these opensource project that needs to work together. The fact that OpenStack is embracing the reality that Kubernetes is going to be there to drive workloads. And they're not stepping on each others' throat, not even near. So, this is where the collaboration, between what we're seeing from the OpenStack Foundation along with the projects from the Linux Foundation, this is really, really interesting to see this moving forward. Other projects upcoming, like ONAP and Akraino, it's going to be very interesting for the next 24 months, to see what it's going to shape into. >> One of the near things, you mentioned 5G and we've been watching, what's available, how that roll-out's going to go into the various pieces. Is this ecosystem ready for that? Going to take advantage of it? And how soon until it is real for customers? >> The hardware is ready. That's for sure. It's really going to be about making sure if you have a split environment that's based on X86, or a split with ARM, it's going to be about making sure that these environments can interact with each other. The service chaining is probably the most complicated aspect there is to what people want to be doing there. And there's a bit of a tie, rope-pulling, from one side to another still but it's finally starting to put in to play. So, I think that the fact that Akraino, which is going to bring a version of OpenStack within the Linux Foundation, this is going to be really unlocking the capabilities that are out there to deploy the solution. And tying along with that, with hardware that has a single purpose, that's able to cater all the use-cases, and not just think about one vertical. "And then this box does this and this other box does another use-case." I think that's the pitfall that a lot of vendors fallen into. Instead of just, "Okay, for a second think outside the box. How many applications could you fit in this footprint?" And there probably going to be big data and multiple use-cases, that are nowhere near each other. So, don't try to do this very specific platform and just make sure that you're able to cater pretty much everyone. It's probably going to do the job, right, so. >> There's over 40 sessions on Edge Computing here. Why don't we just give both of you the opportunity to give us a closing remarks on the importance of Edge, what you're seeing here at the show, and final takeaways. >> From our side, from the Canonical side again, the Edge is whatever is not core. That really has different domains of compute. There is an Ubuntu for each of one of those domains. As Eric mentioned, this is important because you have a common platform, not only in the hardware perspective or the orchestrating technologies and their needs, which are evolving fast. And we have the ability, because how we are built, to accommodate or to build on all of those technologies. And be able to allow developers to choose what they want to do or how they want to do it. Try and try again, in different types of technologies and finally get to that interesting thing, right. There is that application layer that still needs to be developed to make the best use out of the existing technologies. So, it's going to be interesting to see how applications and the technologies evolve together. And we are in a great position as a common platform to all of those compute domains on all of those technologies from the economical perspective. >> On our side, what we see, it's really about making sure it's a density play. At the Edge, and the closer you go to these more wild environments, it's not data centers with 30 kilowatts per rack. You don't have the luxury of putting in, what I like to call whiteboards, 36 inch servers or open-compute systems. So, we really want to make sure that we're able to cater to that. We do have the products for it along with the technologies that Canonical are bringing in on that front. We're able to easily roll-out multiple types of application for those different use-cases. And, ultimately, it's all going to be about density, power efficiency, and making sure that your time to production with the environment is as short as possible. Because the minute they'll want access to that platform, you need to be ready to roll it out. Otherwise, you're going to be lagging behind. >> Eric and Arturo, thanks so much for coming on the program and giving us all the updates on Edge Computing here. For John Troyer, I'm Stu Miniman. Back with lots more coverage here from OpenStack Summit 2018 in Vancouver. Thanks for watching theCUBE. (exciting music)

(electronic music) >> Narrator: Live from Boston, Massachusetts it's The Cube covering OpenStack Summit 2017. Brought to you by the OpenStack Foundation, RedHat and additional ecosystem support. >> Welcome back, I'm Stu Miniman joined by my cohost John Troyer. We always want to give the community what they want. and I think from the early returns on day one, we brought back Mark Shuttleworth. So Mark, founder of Canonical, had you on yesterday. A lot of feedback from the communities, so welcome back. >> Thank you, great to be here and looking forward to questions from the community and you. >> Yeah, so let's start with, we love at the show you get some of these users up on stage and they get to talk about what they're doing. We were actually, John and I, were catching up with a friend of ours that talked about how a private cloud, the next revision is going to use OpenStack, so really, OpenStack's been a little under the covers in many ways. The composability of OpenStack now, we're going to see pieces of it show up a lot of places. We've heard a lot about the Telco places, maybe talk about some of the emerging areas, enterprise customers, that you find for Ubuntu and OpenStack specifically? >> Sure. Well it seems as if every industry has a different name for the same phenomenon, right. So, for some it's "digital", for other's it's essentially a transformation of some aspect of what they're doing. The Telcos call it NFV, in media you have OTT as a sort of emerging threat and the response, in every case, is really to empower developers. That's why it's such a fun time to be a software developer, because the established guys realize that if they aren't already competing with Silicon Valley, they're going to be competing with Silicon Valley. So in each industry there's a sort of challenges or labels that they give this process of kind of unleashing developers and it's fun for us, because we get to be part of that in many cases. I think the big drivers under the hood, other than the operational and economic dynamics of cloudification, I think the really big changes are going to be machine learning, which seems to be moving very quickly into every industry. Retailers are using it for predictive analytics on what to put in store or what to recommend online. It just has this huge effect on almost any business when you figure out how to use your data in that way. All of that is developer driven, all of that needs this kind of underlying infrastructure to power it and it's kind of relevant to every industry. For us media is a key prospect, you know that we've done very, very well in Telco. Media is now a sort-of critical focus. Companies like Bloomberg for example us Ubuntu as an elastic platform for agility for the developers. They're a pretty astonishing operation; media company, but very tech-centric, very tech-savvy. I don't know if you've had them on the show. In retail, Ebay, PayPal it's kind of a crossover finance. They're all using Ubuntu in that sort of way. They may now see the major financials who are looking at the intersection of machine learning and transactions systems effectively as the driver for that kind of change. >> Stu: So in our last interview we talked about are companies making money in OpenStack and your answer, resoundingly, was yes. >> Mark: For us, certainly, yeah. >> One of the things we always look at is kind of the open source model itself. I was at DockerCon a few weeks ago, it's like everybody's using Docker. How do they make money? The question I get from a number of people in the community is, everybody I talk to knows Ubuntu, uses Ubuntu, when do they transition to paying for some of the products? >> Well so one of our key tenants is that we want to put no friction in front of developers. So many of the people that you'll meet here or that you'll meet at other developer-centric summits, they're developer-oriented. They're creatives, effectively. So our products, our commercial products aren't really designed to tax developers effectively. What we want is developers to have the latest and greatest platforms, to have that absolutely free, to be able to have confidence in the fact that it can go into production. When applications get into production, a whole different set of people get involved. For example the security guys will say, does this comply with FIPS security? And that's a commercial capability that customers get from Canonical if they wanted so we're now getting a set of security certifications that enable people to take apps on Ubuntu into production inside defense industries or other high security industries. Similarly if you look at the support life cycle, our standard public free support maintenance window is five years, which is a long time, but for certain applications it turns out the app needs to be in production for 10 years and again that's a driver for a different set of people. Not the developers, but for compilers and system administration operation types to engage with Canonical commercially. Sometimes we would walk through the building and the developers love us as everything's free and then the ops guys love us because we will support them for longer than we would support the developers. >> Can we talk about Open Source as a component of business models in general maybe, and how you would like to see the ecosystem growing, and even Canonical's business model. In the course of the last decade in the industry itself, right, a lot of people sniping at each other; "Well, you know open core is the way to go, open source is not a business model" there's a lot of yelling. You've been around, you know what works. How do you a set of healthy companies that use open source develop in our ecosystem? >> So this is a really, really interesting topic and I'll start at the high end. If you think of the Googles, and the Facebooks, and the Amazons, and the Microsofts, and the Oracles, I think for them open source is now a weapon. It's a way to commoditize something that somebody else attaches value to and in the game of love and war, or Go, or chess, or however you want to think of it, between those giants open source very much has become a kind of root to market in order to establish standards for the next wave. Right now in machine learning for example we see all of these major guys pushing stuff out as open source. People wouldn't really ask "what's the business model" there 'cause they understand that this is these huge organizations essentially trying to establish standards for the next wave through open source. Okay, so that's one approach. On the startup side it's a lot more challenging and there I think we need to do two things. So right now I would say, if you're a single app startup it's very difficult with open source. If you've got a brilliant idea for a database, if you've got a brilliant idea for a messaging system, it's very, very difficult to do that with open source and I think you've seen the consequences of that over the years. That's actually not a great result for us in open source. At the end of the day, what drives brilliant folks to invest 20 hours a day for three years of their life to create something new, part of it is the sense they'll get a return on that and so, actually, we want that innovation. Not just from the Googles, and the Oracles, and the Microsofts, but we want innovation from real startups in open source. So one of the things I'd like to see is that I'd like to see the open source community being more generous of spirit to the startups who are doing that. That's not Canonical, particularly, but it is the Dockers of the world, it is the RethinkDBs, as a recent example. Those are great guys who had really good ideas and we should caution open source folks when they basically piss on the parade of the startup. It's a very short-sighted approach. The other thing that I do need to do is we need to figure out the monetization strategy. Selling software the old way is really terrible. There's a lot of friction associated with it. So one of the things that I'm passionate about is hacking Ubuntu to enable startups to innovate as open source if they want to, but then deliver their software to the enterprise market. Everywhere where you can find Ubuntu, and you know now that's everywhere right? Every Global 2000 company is running Ubuntu. Whether we can call them a customer or not is another question. But how can we enable all those innovators and startups to deliver their stuff to all of those companies and make money doing it? That's really good for those companies, and it's really good for the startups, and that's something I'm very passionate about. >> We've seen such a big transformation. I mean, the era of the shrink wrapped software is gone. An era that I want to get your long term perspective on is, when it comes to internet security. Back to your first company, we had Edward Snowden and the keynote this morning talking about security, and he bashed the public cloud guys and said "We need private cloud, and you need to control a lot more there" any comments on his stuff, the public/private era and internet security in general today? Are we safer today than we were back in '99? >> We certainly are safer in part because of Edward Snowden. Awareness is the only way to start the process of getting stuff better. I don't think it's simplistically that you can bash the public clouds. For example Google does incredible work around security and there's a huge amount of stuff in the Linux stack today around security specifically that we have Google to thank for. Amazon and others are also starting to invest in those areas. So I think the really interesting question is, how do we make security easy in the field and still make it meaningful? That's something we can have a big impact on because security when you touch it it can often feel like friction. So for example we use AppArmor. Now AppArmor is a more modern of the SC Linux ideas that is just super easy to use which means people don't even know that they're using it. Every copy of Ubuntu out there is actually effectively as secure as if you've turned on SC Linux, but administrators don't ever have to worry about that because the way AppArmor works is designed to be really, really easy to just integrate and that allows each piece of the ecosystem, the upstreams, the developers, the end users to essentially upgrade their security without really have to think about that as a budget item or a work ticket item, or something that's friction. >> Mark, any conversations on the show surprise you? Excite you? There's always such a great collection of some really smart and engaged people at this show. I'm curious what your experience has been so far. >> Sure. I think it's interesting. Open Stack moved so quickly from idea to superstar. I guess it's like a child prodigy, you know, a child TV star. The late teens can be a little rocky, right? (Mark laughs) I think it will emerge from all of that as quite a thoughtful community. There were a ton of people who came to these shows who were just stuffed, effectively, there by corporates who just wanted to do something in cloud. Now I think the conversation is much more measured. You've got folks here who really want these pieces to fit together and be useful. Our particular focus is the consumption of OpenStack in a way that is really economically impactful for enterprises. But the people who I see continuing to make meaningful contributions here are people who really want something to work. Whether that's networking, or storage, or compute, or operations as in our case but they're the folks who care about that infrastructure really working rather than the flash in the pan types and I think that's a good transition for the community to be making. >> Can you say a little more about the future of OpenStack and the direction you see the community going. I don't know. If you had a magic wand and you look forward a couple of years. We talked a lot about operability and maintainability, upgradeability, ease of use. That seems to be one of the places that you're trying to drive the ecosystem. >> One of the things that I think the community is starting to realize is that if you try to please everybody, you'll end up with something nobody can really relate to. I think if you take the mission of OpenStack as to say, look, open source is going to do lots of complicated things but if we can essentially just deliver virtualized infrastructure in a super automated way so that nobody has to think about it, the virtual machines, virtual disks, virtual networks on demand. That's an awesome contribution to the innovation stack. There are a ton of other super shiny things that could happen on any given culture and ODS but if we just get that piece right, we've made a huge contribution and I think for a while OpenStack was trying to do everything for everybody. Lots of reasons why that might be the case but now I think there's a stronger sense of "This is the mission" and it will deliver on that mission, I have great confidence. It was contrarian then to say we shouldn't be doing everything, it's contrarian now to say "actually, we're fine". We're learning what we need to be. >> The ebb and flows of this community have been really interesting. NASA helped start it. NASA went to Amazon, NASA went back to OpenStack. >> Think about the economics of cars, right. It's kind of incredible that I can sit outside the building and pull up the app, and I have a car. It's also quite nice to own a car. People do both. The economics of ownership and the economics of renting, they're pretty well understood and most institutions or most people can figure out that sometimes they'll do a bit of either. What we have to do is, at the moment we have a situation where if you want to own your infrastructure the operations are unpredictable. Whereas if you rent it it's super predictable. If we can just put predictability of price and performance into OpenStack, which is, for example what the manage services, what BootStack does. Also what JUJU and MAAS do. They allow you to say, I can do that. I can do that quickly, and I don't have to go and open a textbook to do that or hire 50 people to do it. That essentially allows people now to make the choice between owning and renting in a very natural way, and I think once people understand that that's what this is all about it'll give them a sense of confidence again. >> Curious your viewpoint on the future of jobs in tech. We talked a little bit before about autonomous vehicles. It has the opportunity to be a great boon from a technology standpoint but could hollow out this massive amount of jobs globally. Is technology an enabler of some of these things? Do we race with the machines? We interviewed Erik Brynjolfsson and Andy McAfee from the MIT Sloan School. Did you personally have some thoughts on that? In places where Canonical looks about our future workforce, do we end up with "coding becomes the new blue collar job"? >> I don't know if I can speak to a single career but I think the simple fact is there's nothing magical about the brain. The brain is a mesh network competing flows and it makes decisions, and I think we will simulate that pretty soon and we'll suddenly realize there's nothing magical about the brain but there is something magical about humans and so, what is a job? A job is kind of how we figure out what we want to do most of the day and how we want to define ourselves in some sense. That's never going to go away. I think it's highly likely that humans are obsolete as decision makers and surprisingly soon. Simply because there's nothing magic about the brain and we'll build bigger and better brains for any kind of decision you can imagine. But the art of being human? That's kind of magical, and humans will find a way to evolve into that time. I'm not too worried about it. >> Okay. Last thing I want to ask is, what's exciting you these days? We've talked about space exploration a few times. Happy to comment on it. I mean, the last 12 months has been amazing to watch for those of us. I grew up studying engineering. You always look up to the stars. What's exciting you these days? >> Well the commercialization of space, the commercial access to space is just fantastic to see, sure, really dawning and credit to the Bezoses and the Musks who are kind of shaking up the status quo in those industries. We will be amongst the stars. I have no doubt about it. It will be part of the human experience. For me personally, I expect I'll go back to space and do something interesting there. It'll get easier and easier and so I can pack my walking stick and go to the moon, maybe. But right now from a love of technology and business point of view, IoT is such rich pickings. You can't swing a cat but find something that can be improved in a very physical way. It's great to see that intersection of entrepreneurship and tinkering suddenly come alive again. You don't have to be a giant institution to go and compete with the giant institutions that are driving the giant clouds. You just have to be able to spot a business opportunity in real life around you and how the right piece of software in the right place with the right data can suddenly make things better and so it's just delicious the sort of things people are doing. Ubuntu again is a great platform for innovating around that. It's just great fun for me to see really smart people who three years ago would say, do I really want to go work at a giant organization in Silicon Valley? Or can I have fun with something for a while that's really mine and whether that's worth 12 bucks or 12 billion who knows? But it just feels fun and I'm enjoying that very much, seeing people find interesting things to do at the edge. >> Mark Shuttleworth, appreciate being able to dig into a lot more topics with you today and we'll be right back with lots more coverage here from OpenStack 2017 in Boston. You're watching the cube. (electronic music)

>> Announcer: Live, from Silicon Valley, it's theCUBE. Covering Google Cloud Next '17. (electronic music) >> Welcome back to theCUBE's live coverage of Google Next, here from our Palo Alto studio. Happy to welcome to the program a first time guest, Udi Nachmany, who is the Head of Public Cloud at Ubuntu, thank you so much for joining us. >> Thanks for having me, pleasure to be here. >> All right, so I think it goes without saying, anybody that understands the landscape. Oh wait, there's Cloud, there's Linux, and especially Ubuntu, you know that's going to be there. Before we get into some of these, just tell us a little bit about your role there, and inside the company. >> Sure, I've been with Canonical for about three years, and I head up our partnership with the public clouds and the public IS providers as a whole. >> Yeah. >> That includes Google, AWS, Azure, and many, many others. >> So can you just clarify one thing for us, though? >> Yes. >> You just said Canonical, I introduced you as Ubuntu. >> Yes. >> Which is it? How should we be referring to these two? Well, we are very well known for our products. >> Yeah. >> We're best well known our corporate brand and we're very happy with both names. I usually introduce myself as Udi from Ubuntu, >> Yeah. >> Slash Canonical, so we're used to that. >> Totally understand. So public cloud, give us your view on the landscape today. We want to talk specifically about some of the Google stuff, but what's happening, and what are customers to you for public cloud, where does your suite play into that environment? >> Sure, Ubuntu is a very popular OS, and I think probably the most popular, the area where we're most dominant is public cloud, So a large majority of workload's on Google Cloud, Azure, the Linux part of Azure, AWS, and many, many other providers is running on Ubuntu. A lot of high-visibility services actual develop on Ubuntu. And we have responsibility in that. We need to make the Ubuntu experience predictable and optimized for that cloud platform and have people trust that experience, and believe in it. So that's our job on a technical level, and then on the second level, our job is to help users access support and tooling on top of that, to help them with the operational reality. Because what we see, unless you've probably heard it before from Canonical, what we see is it's great that the licensing cost, the cost of software has gone down, that's great news for everyone, however what a lot of people don't realize is that the cost of operations has gone up, it's skyrocketed, right? It's great Kubernetes is open source, but how do you actually spin up a cluster, how do you deal with this architecture, what does it mean for your business? So that's where we critically focus on private and public cloud. >> Yeah, it's funny. I did an interview with Brad Anderson a few years ago, and I'm like, "Customers are complaining "about licensing costs," and he starts ranting, he's like, "Licensing costs? Do you know that licensing is 6% of the overall cost of what you have?" So, look, we understand operations are difficult, so why is that such a strong fit? What do you bring, what customers do you serve that they're choosing you in such a large preponderance? >> I think the two things we do well, one is we're very well-embedded in the industry and in the community, and pretty much where people are developing something exciting, they're developing it on Ubuntu and they're talking to us through the process. We get a really good view of their problems and challenges, as well as our own. And the second thing is we have come up with tools and frameworks to allow a lot of that knowledge to be crowdsourced, right? So a good example is our modeling platform Juju, where you can very easily get from not knowing anything about, for example Kubernetes, into a position where you have a Kubernetes architecture running on a public cloud, like Google, or in another public cloud, or in bare metal, right? So because we tackled that, we assume that somebody's done this before you, somebody's figured this out. Take all that knowledge, encapsulate it in what we call a Charm, and take that Charm and build an architecture on Juju, on the canvas, or through the CLI. >> Okay, maybe could you compare, contrast, Google, of course, has some pretty good chops when it come to Kubernetes, they're really trying to make some of these offerings really as a service, so ya know, what does Google do, what do you do? How do they work together? Are you actually partnering there or are you just in the community just working on things? >> Google is in this in two different ways. One is they have their own managed service GKE, and that's great and I think people who are all in on Google, then that's a probably a good way to go. You get the expertise, and you get the things that you need. Our approach, as always, is cloud-neutral and we do believe in a hybrid world. We are members of the CNCF, we're silver sponsors of the CNCF, we're very well-embedded in the Kubernetes community, and we do ship a pure upstream Kubernetes distribution that we also sell support for. So we work very closely with Google, in general, Google Cloud, on making sure Ubuntu runs well on GCE, and on the other side, we work very closely with the Kubernetes community in that ecosystem, to again, make sure that it becomes very easy to work with that solution. >> Every player that you talk to in the ecosystem gives you a different story when it comes to multi-cloud environments. Google's message tends to be pretty open. I mean, obviously, with what they're doing with Kubernetes and being their position of where they are with customer adoption, they understand that a lot of people that are doing cloud aren't doing it on Google's Cloud, so they want to make it, you can live in both worlds, and we can support it. I listened to Amazon today, they're like, well, the future's going to be, we're all going to be there, we're going to hire another 100,000 people throughout all of Amazon in the US in the next 18 months. And Microsoft is trying to wrap their arms around a lot of their applications, IBM and Google are there, doing their thing. You've got visibility into customers in all of these environments due to your place in the stack. What are you seeing today? How is Google's adoption going? Is one question I have for you. And two, most customers, I would think, are running kind of multi-cloud, if you will, is the term, is that what you see? How many clouds are they doing? What are you seeing, kind of shifts in there, and I know I asked you three different questions there, but maybe you can dig into that and unpack it for us. >> Sure. I think, in terms of what they, at least top three clouds are saying, I think it's more important to look at what they're doing. If you think about the AWS and VMWare announcement, if you think about Azure Stack for Microsoft, I think those are clearly admissions that there is an OnPrem story and there's a hybrid story that they feel they need to address. They might believe in a world where everybody's happy on a public cloud, but they also live in reality. >> We're on a public cloud show, we're not allowed to mitt about OnPrem, right? Next you're going to, like, mention OpenStack. >> Absolutely. And then, in terms of Google, I think the interesting thing Google's doing, Google are clearly in that, even in terms of size and growth, I think they're in that top three league. They are, my impression is they are focused on building the services and the applications that will attract the users, right? So they don't have this blanket approach of you must use this, because this is the best cloud ever. They actually work on making very good, specific solutions, like for big data and for other things, and Kubernetes is a good example, that will attract people and get them into that specific part of Google Cloud platform, and hopefully in the future, using more and more. So I think they have a very interesting more product than approach, in that sense. >> Okay, so. >> I think I answered one question. >> Yeah, you touched on, yes customers have public and OnPrem. >> Yeah. >> Kind of hybrid, if you will. What about public cloud, you know? Most customers have multiple public clouds in your data or are they tending to get most of it on a single cloud, and might having a second one for some other piece? >> Yeah, I think right now, we're seeing, is a lot of a lot of people using perhaps a couple of platforms. Especially if they have certain size, I'm putting things like serenity and data prophesy aside, but just in terms of public cloud users, they might, again, use a specific platform for a specific service, they might use bare metal servers on software, for example, and VMs on the cloud. People are, by and large, the savvy users do understand that a mix is needed, which also plays to our strength, of course, with tools like Juju and Landscape, we allow you to really solve that operational problem, while being really substrate-agnostic, right? And you don't have to necessarily worry about getting logged in to one or the other. The main thing is, you can manage that, and you can focus on your app. >> All right. Udi, what's the top couple of things that customers are coming to you at these shows for? Where do they find themselves engaging with you as opposed to just, ya know, they're the developers, they're loving what you're doing? >> Sure. So the one thing I mentioned before is operations, right? I've heard about big data, I've heard about Kubernetes. What are my options? Do I hire a team? Do I get a consultant? Do I spend six months reading about this? And they're looking for that help, and I think Juju as an open-source tool and conjure-up as a developer tool that's also open-source. Really expand their options in that sense, and make it much more efficient for them to do that. And the second thing I'd say is Ubuntu is obviously very popular on public cloud, it's popular in production, so production workloads, business-critical workloads. And more and more organizations are realizing that they need to think long and hard about what that means in terms of getting the right support for it, in terms of things like security. An example, this week there was a kernel vulnerability in Linus Distros, I don't think it has a name yet, and we have something called the Canonical Livepatch service which patches kernel vulnerabilities, you can guess by the name. Now, people who have that through our support package have not felt a thing through this vulnerability. So I think we'll start to see more and more of these, where people have a lot of machines running on different substrates, and they're really worried about their up time and what a professional support organization can help them do to maintain that up time. >> It's real interesting times, being a company involved in open sourced, involved in open cloud. I want you to react, there was a quote that Vint Cerf gave at the Google event, I was listening, they had a great session Marc Andreessen and Vint Cerf. >> Yeah it was overcrowed. >> Go there. There was actually room if you got in, but I was glad I got up there, and Vint Cerf said, "We have to be careful about fast leading to instability." What's your take on that? I hear, when I go to a lot of these shows it's like, wow, I used to go from 18 months to six months to six weeks for my deployments. And public cloud will just update everything automatically, but that speed, ya know? As you were just talking, security is one of the issues, but there's instability, what's your take on that? And how are customers dealing with this increasing pace of change, which is the only constant that we have in our industry? >> Yeah, that's very true. I think, so from conversations with customers I've had recently. I've had a few where they've been sitting around and really deliberating what they need to do with this public cloud thing that they've heard about. Trying to buy time, eventually might lead to panicking. So a big financial institution that I met, maybe a month ago are trying to move all in to AWS, right? Whether that's a good thing or a bad thing for them, whether it's the right thing for them, I don't think that discussion necessarily took place, it may well be the best thing for them. But it's the kind of, they're rushing in to that decision, because they took so much time to try and understand. On the other hand, you see people who are much more savvy, and understand that in terms of the rate of change, like you said, it's a constant, so you need to take ownership of your architecture. You can't be locked in to one box that solves all your problems. You need to make sure you have the operation agility and you're using the right tooling, to help you stay nimble when the next big thing comes along. Or the next little thing, which is sometimes just as scary. And I think, again, that's where we're very well placed and that's where we can have very interesting conversations. >> Really interesting stuff. Actually, I just published a case study with City, talking about, they use AWS, I would say tactically would be the way to put it. They build, they have a number of locations where they have infrastructure. Speed and agility absolutely something they need as an outcome. Public cloud is a tool that they use at certain times, but not... There are things they were concerned about in how they build their architectures. Want to give you the last word. We see Canonical, Ubuntu at a lot of shows, you're involved in a lot of partnerships. What do we expect to see from your cloud group, kind of over the next six months, what shall we be keeping an eye on? >> I think on the private cloud side we've been doing some great work into the toggle vertical, and I think you'll see us expanding into more verticals, like financial services, where we've had some good early successes. >> Can I ask, is that NFV-related? It was the top discussion point that I had at OpenStacks on it last year was around NFV. Is it that specific or? >> Yeah, that's an element of it, yeah, but it's about, how do I make my privat cloud economically viable as AWS or Google or Azure would be? How do I free myself from that and enable myself to move between the substrates without making that trade off. So I think that's on the private cloud side. And I think you're going to see more and more crossover between the world of platforms and switches and servers and the world of devices, web-connected devices. We just finished MWC in Barcelona last week. I think we're in the top 13 or 14 bars in terms of visibility, way ahead of most other OS platforms. And I think that's because our message resonates, right? It's great to have five million devices out there, but how do you actually ship a security fix? How do you ship an update? How do you ship an app, and how do you commercialize that? When you have that size of fleet. So that's a whole different kind of challenge, which, again, with the approach we have to operations, I think we are already there, in terms of offering the solution. So I think you're going to see a lot of more activity on that front. And in the public cloud, I'd say it's really about continuing to work ever closer with the bigger public clouds so that you have optimized experiences on Ubuntu, on that public cloud, on your public cloud of choice. And you're going to see a lot more focus on support offerings, sold through those clouds, which makes a lot of sense, not everyone wants to buy from another supplier. It's much easier to get all your needs met through one centralized bill. So you're going to see that as well. >> Udi Nachmany, really appreciate you coming to our studio here to help us with our coverage of Google Next 2017. We'll be wrapping up day one of two days of live coverage here from the SiliconANGLE Media Studio in Palo Alto. You're watching theCUBE (electronic music)