(gentle music) >> Welcome everyone to theCUBE's presentation of the AWS Startup Showcase. The theme is Data as Code; The Future of Enterprise Data and Analytics. This is the season two, episode two of the ongoing series of covering the exciting startups in the AWS ecosystem around data analytics and cloud computing. I'm your host, John Furrier. Today we're joined by great guests here. Three guests. Wen Phan, who's a Director of Product Management at Ahana, Satyam Krishna, Engineering Manager at Blinkit, and we have Akshay Agarwal, Senior Engineer at Blinkit as well. We're going to get into the relationship there. Let's get into. We're going to talk about how Blinkit's using open data lake, data house with Presto on AWS. Gentlemen, thanks for joining us. >> Thanks for having us. >> So we're going to get into the deep dive on the open data lake, but I want to just quickly get your thoughts on what it is for the folks out there. Set the table. What is the open data lakehouse? Why it is important? What's in it for the customers? Why are we seeing adoption around this because this is a big story. >> Sure. Yeah, the open data lakehouse is really being able to run a gamut of analytics, whether it be BI, SQL, machine learning, data science, on top of the data lake, which is based on inexpensive, low cost, scalable storage. And more importantly, it's also on top of open formats. And this to the end customer really offers a tremendous range of flexibility. They can run a bunch of use cases on the same storage and great price performance. >> You guys have any other thoughts on what's your reaction to the lakehouse? What is your experience with it? What's going on with Blinkit? >> No, I think for us also, it has been the primary driver of how as a company we have shifted our completely delivery model from us delivering in one day to someone who is delivering in 10 minutes, right? And a lot of this was made possible by having this kind of architecture in place, which helps us to be more open-source, more... where the tools are open-source, we have an open table format which helps us be very modular in nature, meaning we can pick solutions which works best for us, right? And that is the kind of architecture that we want to be in. >> Awesome. Wen, you know last time we chat with Ahana, we had a great conversation around Presto, data. The theme of this episode is Data as Code, which is interesting because in all the conversations in these episodes all around developers, which administrators are turning into developers, there's a developer vibe with data. And with opensource, it's software. Now you've got data taking a similar trajectory as how software development was with code, but the people running data they're not developers, they're administrators, they're operators. Now they're turning into DataOps. So it's kind of a similar vibe going on with branches and taking stuff out of and putting it back in, and testing it. Datasets becoming much more stable, iterating on machine learning algorithm. This is a movement. What's your guys reaction before we get into the relationships here with you guys. But, what's your reaction to this Data as Code movement? >> Yeah, so I think the folks at Blinkit are doing a great job there. I mean, they have a pretty compact data engineering team and they have some pretty stringent SLAs, as well as in terms of time to value and reliability. And what that ultimately translates for them is not only flexibility but reliability. So they've done some very fantastic work on a lot of automation, a lot of integration with code, and their data pipelines. And I'm sure they can give the details on that. >> Yes. Satyam and Akshay, you guys are engineers' software, but this is becoming a whole another paradigm where the frontline coding and or work or engineer data engineering is implementing the operations as well. It's kind of like DevOps for data. >> For sure. Right. And I think whenever you're working, even as a software engineer, the understanding of business is equally important. You cannot be working on something and be away from business, right? And that's where, like I mentioned earlier, when we realized that we have to completely move our stack and start giving analytics at 10 minutes, right. Because when you're delivering in 10 minutes, your leaders want to take decisions in your real-time. That means you need to move with them. You need to move with business. And when you do that, the kind of flexibility these softwares give is what enables the businesses at the end of the day. >> Awesome. This is the really kind of like, is there going to be a book called agile data warehouses? I don't think so. >> I think so. (laughing) >> The agile cloud data. This is cool. So let's get into what you guys do. What is Blinkit up to? What do you guys do? Can you take a minute to explain the company and your product? >> Sure. I'll take that. So Blinkit is India's biggest 10 minute delivery platform. It pioneered the delivery model in the country with over 10 million Indian shopping on our platform, ranging from everything: grocery staples, vegetables, emergency services, electronics, and much more, right. It currently delivers over 200,000 orders every day, and is in a hurry to bring the future of farmers to everyone in India. >> What's the relationship with Ahana and Blinkit? Wen, what's the tie in? >> Yeah, so Blinkit had a pretty well formed stack. They needed a little bit more flexibility and control. They thought a managed service was the way to go. And here at Ahana, we provide a SaaS managed service for Presto. So they engaged us and they evaluated our offering. And more importantly, we're able to partner. As a early stage startup, we really rely on very strong partners with great use cases that are willing to collaborate. And the folks at Blinkit have been really great in helping us push our product, develop our product. And we've been very happy about the value that we've been able to deliver to them as well. >> Okay. So let's unpack the open data lakehouse. What is it? What's under the covers? Let's get into it. >> Sure. So if bring up a slide. Like I said before, it's really a paradigm on being able to run a gamut of analytics on top of the open data lake. So what does that mean? How did it come about? So on the left hand side of the slide, we are coming out of this world where for the last several decades, the primary workhorse for SQL based processing and reporting and dashboarding use cases was really the data warehouse. And what we're seeing is a shift due to the trends in inexpensive scalable storage, cloud storage. The proliferation of open formats to facilitate using this storage to get certain amounts of reliability and performance, and the adoption of frameworks that can operate on top of this cloud data lake. So while here at Ahana, we're primarily focused on SQL workloads and Presto, this architecture really allows for other types of frameworks. And you see the ML and AI side. And like to Satyam's point earlier, offers a great amount of flexibility modularity for many use cases in the cloud. So really, that's really the lakehouse, and people like it for the performance, the openness, and the price performance. >> How's the open-source open side of it playing in the open-source? It's kind of open formats. What is the open-source angle on this because there's a lot of different approaches. I'm hearing open formats. You know, you have data stores which are a big part of seeing that. You got SQL, you mentioned SQL. There's got a mishmash of opportunities. Is it all coexisting? Is it one tool to rule the world or is it interchangeable? What's the open-source angle? >> There's multiple angles and I'll let definitely Satyam add to what I'm saying. This was definitely a big piece for Blinkit. So on one hand, you have the open formats. And what really the open formats enable is multiple compute engines to work on that data. And that's very huge. 'Cause it's open, you're not locked in. I think the other part of open that is important and I think it was important to Blinkit was the governance around that. So in particular Presto is governed by the Linux Foundation. And so, as a customer of open-source technology, they want some assurances for things like how's it governed? Is the license going to change? So there's that aspect of openness that I think is very important. >> Yeah. Blinkit, what's the data strategy here with lakehouse and you guys? Why are you adopting this type of architecture? >> So adding to what... Yeah, I think adding to Wen said, right. When we are thinking in terms of all these OpenStacks, you have got these open table formats, everything which is deployed over cloud, the primary reason there is modularity. It's as simple as that, right. You can plug and play so many different table formats from one thing to another based on the use case that you're trying to serve, so that you get the most value out of data. Right? I'll give you a very simple example. So for us we use... not even use one single table format. It's not that one thing solves for everything, right? We use both Hudi and Iceberg to solve for different use cases. One is good for when you're working for a certain data site. Icebergs works well when you're in the SQL kind of interface, right. Hudi's still trying to reach there. It's going to go there very soon. So having the ability to plug and play different formats based on the use case helps you to grow faster, helps you to take decisions faster because you now you're not stuck on one thing. They will have to implement it. Right. So I think that's what it is great about this data lake strategy. Keeping yourself cost effective. Yeah, please. >> So the enablement is basically use case driven. You don't have to be rearchitecturing for use cases. You can simply plug can play based on what you need for the use case. >> Yeah. You can... and again, you can focus on your business use case. You can figure out what your business users need and not worry about these things because that's where Presto comes in, helps you stitch that data together with multiple data formats, give you the performance that you need and it works out the best there. And that's something that you don't get to with traditional warehouse these days. Right? The kind of thing that we need, you don't get that. >> I do want to add. This is just to riff on what Satyam said. I think it's pretty interesting. So, it really allowed him to take the best-of-breed of what he was seeing in the community, right? So in the case of table formats, you've got Delta, you've got Hudi, you've got Iceberg, and they all have got their own roadmap and it's kind of organic of how these different communities want to evolve, and I think that's great, but you have these end consumers like Blinkit who have different maybe use cases overlapping, and they're not forced to pick one. When you have an open architecture, they can really put together best-of-breed. And as these projects evolve, they can continue to monitor it and then make decisions and continue to remain agile based on the landscape and how it's evolving. >> So the agility is a key point. Flexibility and agility, and time to valuing with your data. >> Yeah. >> All right. Wen, I got to get in to why the Presto is important here. Where does that fit in? Why is Presto important? >> Yeah. For me, it all comes down to the use cases and the needs. And reporting and dashboarding is not going to go away anytime soon. It's a very common use case. Many of our customers like Blinkit come to us for that use case. The difference now is today, people want to do that particular use case on top of the modern data lake, on top of scalable, inexpensive, low cost storage. Right? In addition to that, there's a need for this low latency interactive ability to engage with the data. This is often arises when you need to do things in a ad hoc basis or you're in the developmental phase of building things up. So if that's what your need is. And latency's important and getting your arms around the problems, very important. You have a certain SLA, I need to deliver something. That puts some requirements in the technology. And Presto is a perfect for that ideal use case. It's ideal for that use case. It's distributed, it's scalable, it's in memory. And so it's able to really provide that. I think the other benefit for Presto and why we're bidding on Presto is it works well on the data lakes, but you have to think about how are these organizations maturing with this technology. So it's not necessarily an all or nothing. You have organizations that have maybe the data lake and it's augmented with other analytical data stores like Snowflake or Redshift. So Presto also... a core aspect is its ability to federate or connect and query across different data sources. So this can be a permanent thing. This could also be a transitionary thing. We have some customers that are moving and slowly shifting their data portfolio from maybe all data warehouse into 80% data lake. But it gives that optionality, it gives that ability to transition over a timeframe. But for all those reasons, the latency, the scalability, the federation, is why Presto for this particular use case. >> And you can connect with other databases. It can be purpose built database, could be whatever. Right? >> Sure. Yes, yes. Presto has a very pluggable architecture. >> Okay. Here's the question for the Blinkit team? Why did you choose Presto and what led you to Ahana? >> So I'll take this better, over this what Presto sits well in that reach is, is how it is designed. Like basically, Presto decouples your storage with the compute. Basically like, people can use any storage and Presto just works as a query engine for them. So basically, it has a constant connectors where you can connect with a real-time databases like Pinot or a Druid, along with your warehouses like Redshift, along with your data lake that's like based on Hudi or Iceberg. So it's like a very landscape that you can use with the Presto. And consumers like the analytics doesn't need to learn the SQL or different paradigms of the querying for different sources. They just need to learn a single source. And, they get a single place to consume from. They get a single consumer on their single destination to write on also. So, it's a homologous architecture, which allows you to put a central security like which Presto integrates. So it's also based on open architecture, that's Apache engine. And it has also certain innovative features that you can see based on caching, which reduces a lot of the cost. And since you have further decoupled your storage with the compute, you can further reduce your cost, because now the biggest part of our tradition warehouse is a storage. And the cost goes massively upwards with the amount of data that you've added. Like basically, each time that you add more data, you require more storage, and warehouses ask you to write the data in their own format. Over here since we have decoupled that, the storage cost have gone down. It's literally that your cost that you are writing, and you just pay for the compute, and you can scale in scale out based on the requirements. If you have high traffic, you scale out. If you have low traffic, you scale in. So all those. >> So huge cost savings. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. Cost effectiveness, for sure. >> Cost effectiveness and you get a very good price value out of it. Like for each query, you can estimate what's the cost for you based on that tracking and all those things. >> I mean, if you think about the other classic Iceberg and what's under the water you don't know, it's the hidden cost. You think about the tooling, right, and also, time it takes to do stuff. So if you have flexibility on choice, when we were riffing on this last time we chatted with you guys and you brought it up earlier around, you can have the open formats to have different use cases in different tools or different platforms to work on it. Redshift, you can use Redshift here, or use something over there. You don't have to get locking >> Absolutely. >> Satyam & Akshay: Yeah. >> Locking is a huge problem. How do you guys see that 'cause sounds like here there's not a lot of locking. You got the open formats, and you got choice. >> Yeah. So you get best of the both worlds. Like you get with Ahana or with the Presto, you can get the best of the both worlds. Since it's cloud native, you can easily deploy your clusters very easily within like five minutes. Your cluster is up, you can start working on it. You can deploy multiple clusters for multiple teams. You get also flexibility of adding new connectors since it's open and further it's also much more secure since it's based on cloud native. So basically, you can control your security endpoints very well. So all those things comes in together with this architecture. So you can definitely go more on the lakehouse architecture than warehousing when you want to deliver data value faster. And basically, you get the much more high value out of your data in a sorted template. >> So Satyam, it sounds like the old warehousing was like the application person, not a lot of usage, old, a lot of latency. Okay. Here and there. But now you got more speed to deploy clusters, scale up scale down. Application developers are as everyone. It's not one person. It's not one group. It's whenever you want. So, you got speed. You got more diversity in the data opportunities, and your coding. >> Yeah. I think data warehouses are a way to start for every organization who is getting into data. I don't think data warehousing is still a solution and will be a solution for a lot of teams which are still getting into data. But as soon as you start scaling, as you start seeing the cost going up, as you start seeing the number of use cases adding up, having an open format definitely helps. So, I would say that's where we are also heading into and that's how our journey as well started with Presto as well, why we even thought about Ahana, right. >> (John chuckles) >> So, like you mentioned, one of the things that happened was as we were moving to the lakehouse and the open table format, I think Ahana is one of the first ones in the market to have Hudi as a first class citizen completely supported with all the things which are not even present at the time of... even with Presto, right. So we see Ahana working behind the scenes, improving even some of the things already over the open-source ecosystem. And that's where we get the most value out of Ahana as well. >> This is the convergence of open-source magic and commercialization. Wen, because you think about Data as Code, reminds me, I hear, "Data warehouse, it's not going to go away." But you got cloud scale or scale. It reminds me of the old, "Oh yeah, I have a data center." Well, here comes the cloud. So, doesn't really kill the data center, although Amazon would say that the data center's going to be eliminated. No, you just use it for whatever you need it for. You use it for specific use cases, but everyone, all the action goes to the cloud for scale. The same things happen with data, and look at the open-source community. It's kind of coming together. Data as Code is coming together. >> Yeah, absolutely. >> Absolutely. >> I do want to again to connect on another dot in terms of cost and that. You know, we've been talking a little bit about price performance, but there's an implicit cost, and I think this was also very important to Blinkit, and also why we're offering a managed service. So one piece of it. And it really revolves around the people, right? So outside of the technology, the performance. One thing that Akshay brought up and it's another important piece that I should have highlighted a little bit more is, Presto exposes the ability to interact your data in a widely adopted way, which is basically ANSI SQL. So the ability for your practitioners to use this technology is huge. That's just regular Presto. In terms of a managed service, the guys at Blinkit are a great high performing team, but they have to be very efficient with their time and what they manage. And what we're trying to do is provide leverage for them. So take a lot of the heavy lifting away, but at the same time, figuring out the right things to expose so that they have that same flexibility. And that's been the balancing point that we've been trying to balance at Ahana, but that goes back to cost. How do I total cost of ownership? And that not doesn't include just the actual querying processing time, but the ability for the organization to go ahead and absorb the solution. And what does it cost in terms of the people involved? >> Yeah. Great conversation. I mean, this brings up the question of back in the data center, the cloud days, you had the concept of an SRE, which is now popular, site reliability engineer. One person does all the clusters and manages all the scale. Is the data engineer the new SRE for data? Are we seeing a similar trajectory? Just want to get your reaction. What do you guys think? >> Yes, so I would say, definitely. It depends on the teams and the sizes of that. We are high performing team so each automation takes bits on the pieces of the architecture, like where they want to invest in. And it comes out with the value of the engineer's time and basically like how much they can invest in, how much they need to configure the architecture, and how much time it'll take to time to market. So basically like, this is what I would also highlight as an engineer. I found Ahana like the... I would say as a Presto in a cloud native environment, or I think so there's the one in the market that seamlessly scales and then scales out. And further, with a team of us, I would say our team size like three to four engineers managing cluster day in day out, conferring, tuning and all those things takes a lot of time. And Ahana came in and takes it off our plate and the hands in a solution which works out of box. So that's where this comes in. Ahana it's also based on open-source community. >> So the time of the engineer's time is so valuable. >> Yeah. >> My take on it really in terms of the data engineering being the SRE. I think that can work, it depends on the actual person, and we definitely try to make the process as easy as possible. I think in Blinkit's case, you guys are... There are data platform owners, but they definitely are aware of the pipelines. >> John: Yeah. >> So they have very intimate knowledge of what data engineers do, but I think in their case, you guys, you're managing a ton of systems. So it's not just even Presto. They have a ton of systems and surfacing that interface so they can cater to all the data engineers across their data systems, I think is the big need for them. I know you guys you want to chime in. I mean, we've seen the architecture and things like that. I think you guys did an amazing job there. >> So, and to adding to Wen's point, right. Like I generally think what DevOps is to the tech team. I think, what is data engineer or the data teams are to the data organization, right? Like they play a very similar role that you have to act as a guardrail to ensure that everyone has access to the data so the democratizing and everything is there, but that has to also come with security, right? And when you do that, there are (indistinct) a lot of points where someone can interact with data. We have... And again, there's a mixed match of open-source tools that works well, as well. And there are some paid tools as well. So for us like for visualization, we use Redash for our ad hoc analysis. And we use Tableau as well whenever we want to give a very concise reporting. We have Jupyter notebooks in place and we have EMRs as well. So we always have a mixed batch of things where people can interact with data. And most of our time is spent in acting as that guardrail to ensure that everyone should have access to data, but it shouldn't be exploited, right. And I think that's where we spend most of our time in. >> Yeah. And I think the time is valuable, but that your point about the democratization aspect of it, there seems to be a bigger step function value that you're enabling and needs to be talked out. The 10x engineer, it's more like 50x, right? If you get it done right, the enablement downstream at the scale that we're seeing with this new trend is significant. It's not just, oh yeah, visualization and get some data quicker, there's actually real advantages on a multiple with that engineering. So, and we saw that with DevOps, right? Like, you do this right and then magic happens on the edges. So, yeah, it's interesting. You guys, congratulations. Great environment. Thanks for sharing the insight Blinkit. Wen, great to see you. Ahana again with Presto, congratulations. The open-source meets data engineering. Thanks so much. >> Thanks, John. >> Appreciate it. >> Okay. >> Thanks John. >> Thanks. >> Thanks for having us. >> This season two, episode two of our ongoing series. This one is Data as Code. This is theCUBE. I'm John furrier. Thanks for watching. (gentle music)

>> Live from Barcelona, Spain, It's theCUBE. Covering KubeCon + CloudNativeCon Europe 2019. Brought to you by Red Hat, the Cloud Native Computing Foundation, and ecosystem partners. >> Welcome back, to theCUBE coverage here at KubeCon + CloudNativeCon. I'm Stu Miniman, my co-host is Corey Quinn. And happy to welcome back to the program Mark Shuttleworth who os the CEO of Canonical. Of course, the orange shirts of Ubuntu, are seen all throughout the show. Mark, thank you so much for joining us, great so see you. >> Great to see you. >> All right, so for years, actually, we've had these conversations at the OpenStack Summit. It's interesting that, every time you mention it around this show you get snark online, as like, it is dead, Kubernetes killed it and it's like wait, no, no, you know we're talking about, a couple of open-source projects. I've been talking to people, especially in the telco space, that's like, oh yeah, well no, we just run OpenStack underneath and Kubernetes on top and put all things together. Give us a little bit of your broad view of some of these big trends, and open-source monoliths and microservices and all these pieces, all kind of fly together. >> Yeah, I think if your in the Reddit SubChannels, then you know it can feel a bit like turf war, and gangster-type, free software riffing, right. But the reality is, OpenStack solves business problems for people. They want large scale, virtualized infrastructure, that's cheaper than VMware. We are deploying OpenStacks in enterprise environments at double the scale and double the speed, in other words, like twice as many every month, as we were a year ago. I think people have gotten comfortable with the idea that Kubernetes is an application operations construct. I think we will see virtualization blur into the Kubernetes lives, but mainly for security reasons. So I want deeper isolation of applications that come from third-party vendors, for example. And I'm willing to trade performance for isolation, in circumstances where I am bringing in third-party code into my private infrastructure. After we see a couple of significant security compromises, I mean, we saw the GitHub compromise. If you shave that Yak, it gets to a very uncomfortable place of, what are we actually running as root all over our data centers with Docker and Docker Hub. So, people are going to want that kind of isolation of containers, the Kata Containers work is going to bring that. But that's very different to the proposition of, essentially, give me large scale, machine virtualization which OpenStack addresses. OpenStack hasn't done itself any favors, don't need to go into that here. But nonetheless, as far as we're concerned, it's straight forward to deliver large scale, low cost, enterprise virtualization infrastructure for telco's or IT use cases. >> Let's get into this ecosystem here. I want to say the Cloud Native ecosystem, and I say that specifically because there are some that look at this and they say, oh, there's dozens of projects now, Kubernetes is a platform against platform. Somebody even mentioned the word big tent once. We've seen some projects merging, we've seen some various pieces. >> I saw making a bigger tent on the keynote and I was like, not my favorite choice of words. >> I seem to remember a certain article that you wrote poking a whole in the big tent thing. What's the same, what's different? What's your take on this? Is it an ecosystem? Is it Kubernetes and friends, as Corey has liked to say here? What's your take? >> Look, I think we're still trying to figure out what are the appropriate labels to attach to this kind of forum, it is a forum, right. There is a tremendous amount of value attached to being here, to the ideas that are getting bounced about. But I wouldn't call it a simple community in the sort of, traditional open-source sense. The reality is there's very serious money behind every, sort of project that's been framed as a community project. This is a new kind of consortium. And that brings with it certain, delicate, political posturing and so on. But, nonetheless, it's a valuable place to be. It's definitely staking out important concepts and operational platforms, ideas, regimes, whatever you want to call it. This is going to be a fun week. >> I started off my career in the Linux world as a grumpy Unix administrator because there really wasn't any other kind. Then I started dipping my toes into the Linux world and something struck me, almost immediately, about Ubuntu. Was how welcoming everyone was in the community. There was no such thing as a stupid question. I asked the kind of questions you would expect from someone working on a computer, wearing a suit. People were very eager to embrace newcomers into that. It was one of the absolute best things that I saw coming out of Canonical, in addition to the software itself. I love that you're here as a part of this. What is the larger picture? What do you see in the Cloud Native ecosystem that's resonating with what Canonical's doing? >> So, the big thing that we do is, essentially, try to figure out where, what's possible with open-source that's hard to do. And then make it really straight forward so that more people can do the important stuff easily. That doesn't stop people from doing all the crazy stuff at the periphery that you can do with Ubuntu. It's generally easier with Ubuntu than any other platform. But we try to make the really most important things really easy for everybody. That's the first thing. The second thing is, we're a little non-judgemental about the fact that there are different perspectives on the same stuff. In the Ubuntu ecosystem, we make a point of saying that GNOME guys, and the KDE guys, and the LXQt, and the MATE guys. The Ubuntu ecosystem is where they actually meet to hash out how they can do stuff in a way that means users get a real choice between those. There's a very similar role for us to play in an environment like this. It's kind of acronym soup out there. Like 50 new projects every KubeCon. They're all interesting, they're all important, there's a lot of overlap between them. There's work for us to do in figuring out which ones are going to be really more important in the tent. We did that very effectively with OpenStack. The people who rode the OpenStack wave with us haven't had to abandon their OpenStacks. Because the stuff that we really chose to make central and easy, turned out to be the stuff that was the important poles in the tent. And we'll do exactly the same stuff here with Kubernetes. So, to put that into context, it's been real fun to be on the booth. We had, just tons, of people coming up and saying thank you for Microk8s. Microk8s is a single package of Kubernetes, that works in lots Linux distributions. It gives you, in about a minute, it gives you a standard Kubernetes environment, that's pure upstream. That, for a developer, just let's you get productive immediately. Figure out these new development application operations, constructs. You can use it on an airplane, you can use it on a train. Of course, it's compatible with all of the public clouds so that's the second thing that we're doing. We work with Amazon, with the EKS team, I spoke at their event on Monday. We work with Azure, the AKS team, we work with Google, we work with Oracle, we work with IBM. Essentially making sure that all of them offer Ubuntu worker nodes for their Kubernetes, SaaS offerings. That means that the developer who's doing stuff on their workstation with Microk8s can take those containers straight to any other public clouds. So, we're not trying to force people to use a particular solution, we're saying, in all of those environments, there are going to be choices people have. We want to make that as easy as possible for them. We want to avoid unnecessary friction in that process. That kind of underlining culture is coming through in this forum, as well. >> We've had many conversations about how you've always tried to make the job of that developer really easy. One of the things we always look at on this show is how much of it is the infrastructure people, or the platform underneath and the developer, and how much are they coming together. Anything different about this ecosystem? >> Very much so, yeah. >> Or your customers here that you can share? >> Kubernetes is an application construct. You can think of it as a next generation message bus. It's how components of an application find each other, communicate with each other, essentially, coordinate with each other. That makes it very tightly woven in to the developer experience. By contrast, you can be sitting writing a Java application inside a bank and not know or care whether it's going to be running on a physical machine, a virtual machine or an OpenStack cloud. You just don't know, you don't care. It's too far away from the application. Kubernetes is right there. I think that's one of the really interesting things is that it's bringing those infrastructure brains together with the application, app dev brains, in a very interesting way. It's going to be challenging. I wouldn't underestimate it, there are a lot of people, sort of, wondering around here, feeling a little confused, but that's okay. Do you know what I mean, the stuff shakes out. >> So, something that's been a recurring theme here has been the idea of going in a multi-cloud direction. Where people are talking about wanting to build workloads that they can seamlessly deploy across different providers. People talk about that, periodically, as a strategic goal but I'm not seeing people do it very often in the real world. You're in a much better position than a lot of us, to see that. Is that something you're seeing people moving towards as an adoption? >> Well, yes. Because we work with all of the major public clouds to optimize Ubuntu there, in a way that I don't think any other Linux does. You get an optimized Amazon Ubuntu on Amazon. You get an optimized Azure Ubuntu on Azure, and so on. >> Going very deep in the Amazon ecosystem. Most of my customers are using Ubuntu far ahead of anything else out there. >> That's right. >> And it's the right answer for what they're doing. >> That's right. It gives them, essentially, the best of what Amazon's offering, it still gives them the ability to feel like if they want to go somewhere else, they can. And that actually works well for Amazon. In the early days, I think there was a little tension between us and the cloud guys, because they were saying, look, if people use Ubuntu then they can go somewhere else. Yes, but in a sense, that makes them more likely to be more relaxed about starting wherever they choose to start. We don't advise enterprises as to which cloud to use. We advise them to engage with those clouds and figure out their differences, they are different. Amazon's really good at some things that are different, to what Microsoft is good at. Oracle is really good at some things which are different too. And what we're starting to see is the level of maturity in the enterprise governance process. They know they want to work with multiple clouds. They initially thought that was a straight kind of commodity exchange, competition thing. They now realize that it's a bit richer than that. That there are actually business reasons to have deeper relationships with particular clouds, based on what those clouds are prioritizing, and what they are prioritizing. So, we're not going to say you should use this cloud, you should use that cloud. Obviously, we can draw a distinction between the clouds where we're deeply engaged and the clouds where, you know, where you just don't have the benefit of that. But, more importantly we can say, you know, here are the set of practices that you can adopt internally that will give you comfort that your getting the best out of those clouds, the ones that you've chosen. And you have the portability that you really need. The key turns out be, enabling your developers, to use multiple clouds and challenging the developers to do different phases of the development life cycle on different clouds. Develop on your private cloud or your work station, use Microk8s, for example. Do tests on one cloud. Do staging and production on a different cloud. Now you already know that that whole, seamless ecosystem works. If you want to go use a high value, proprietary function, effectively on a cloud, that's a business decision and it's not a bad business decision. There's some spectacular capabilities from Amazon that are unique to Amazon. Or from Microsoft that are unique, or from Oracle that are unique to Oracle. They're spectacular. Those are business decisions to use them. There's other stuff that effectively you can give yourself optionality on. I wouldn't be black and white about that, put yourself in a position to make smart choices. And our best customers are getting are getting there. PayPal, they're operating on Ubuntu in a very sophisticated way, across multiple public clouds and private infrastructure. >> All right, so Mark we're five years into Kubernetes now. We've seen adoption grow, people feel there's a certain level of maturity here. There's always that concern that we've reached that peak and we're about to fall off the cliff. What do we need to worry about? What does the ecosystem need to do to make sure we continue along the stability and security that customers are looking for. >> There will be an over shoot regardless. I don't think there's any sort of leadership or governance approach that could avoid that. It's a little bit like, if your stock is going crazy. On the one hand, you're kind of happy. On the other hand, if you feel it's over valued it's a difficult sort of thing to say. You need to say, guys, you know what I mean, we're humans too. We've got our challenges to work through. And no one likes volatility, but too a certain extent, there's always speculation and over shoot, and over-enthusiasm, and hype. Kubernetes will over shoot. There's a bunch of emperors walking around here that, frankly, have no clothes. My job, our job, is very calmly, to sort through the wheat from the chaff. Make sure that it's possible for people to experiment with everything. But, that the stuff that we think has legs, effectively, is nicely integrated for people, that they have that for the long term, they won't regret things. We have a good track record of doing that. We've done it in the Linux desktop. We did it in OpenStack, we're doing it in public cloud. We've done it here in the Cloud Native world. I'd say things like AI are going in the same direction. Again, tons of complexity, tons of new options. Helping people effectively navigate through that is what we do very well. >> Yeah, one of the questions that I started to see as well, as we look at the way that these technologies continue to evolve, has been that, for better or worse, when developers are writing applications now and even infrastructure people are working with a lot of the things they care about. What operating system, let alone what distribution they're using, is increasingly slipping beneath the waves. People don't think about that as a primary area of focus anymore. And as, I guess, of the foundational Linux vendors in this space, how are you seeing that evolving? And how does Canonical remain relevant in a world where suddenly, people in a serverless future, I just throw some code over somewhere else and it runs is the limit of where most companies get involved. >> Yes, of course, we can point to the servers. And on the servers, we can point to the operating systems and inside the containers, we can point to the operating systems and underneath the serverless code, we can point to the language runtimes. So, the reality is that those things matter less and less to the developer. >> Yes. >> They still matter to the institution. So, I'm super comfortable with the language that says, the OS doesn't matter. What it means is that that whole tangle is getting professionalized and abstracted. But to be confident in the abstractions, someone needs to do a lot of work. I know how much work we do with Google, with Amazon, with Microsoft, with Oracle, with IBM, to make sure that nobody else has to feel like the OS matters. That that stuff essentially just works. You can extend that out to what we do with VMware, what we do, essentially, on bare-metal, what we do on developer workstations, what we do with the Windows crowd, effectively, and Windows subsystem for Linux, so that developers really can just build on Windows subsystem for Linux, Ubuntu, effectively, and ship that container straight to Amazon EKS and have it just work. There are a ton of little lies that have to line up. Containers are all kind of a fiction. The fiction breaks if those pieces don't line up. So, being Ubuntu, effectively and being being able to be consistent in all of those places, is a ton of work to enable it not to matter for anybody upstairs. That's allowing developers to go faster. It's allowing them to be more productive. It's allowing them to be more heroic. And it's allowing the people who do worry about the middleware to have far fewer nights scratching their heads as to, why didn't this version of this library tie up to that driver with that kernel. All of those things are still there. When you drop that container onto Amazon, we've got to connect the GPGPU in the hardware, through the hypervisor, to the guest OS, up into the container. And there's code getting injected all the way up. It's only the fact that we can typically have Ubuntu everywhere there that, essentially, allows those pieces to line up without some spectacular fireworks. It satisfies me when people say they don't have to worry about that. >> It's a victory condition. >> Mark, I want to give you the final word. What should we be looking for, from Canonical, through the rest of the year? >> So, for us, this has been a big year in terms of visibility in the enterprise. In terms of penetration, Ubuntu's everywhere in the Fortune 500, everywhere in the Global 2000. What's changed this year, is the CIO suddenly is seeing Ubuntu on their desk. For two reasons, one is IBM Red Hat. The CIO suddenly wants to know, okay, what does this mean? What else are we running? Where else can we get 24/7 SLAs? Where else can we get long term commitments to Linux and so on? And the fact is Ubuntu's already in the building so that's one, sort of, easy connect. The other thing is, there's really interesting, new workloads that Ubuntu leads in the enterprise. Obviously the container story, the multi-cloud story, edge. It's not just telcos. Every retailer, every logistics company, anybody that has physical distribution is now trying to say, well how can I automate compute in my physical world, effectively. So, edge is super interesting and IoT beyond that. People transforming businesses through taking a Raspberry Pi with Ubuntu and putting a snap on it is really, really cool. Which of those is going to drive the biggest headlines or the scariest headlines, I can't tell you. We're just trying to take care of security, performance and operations across all of them. >> All right, well, Mark Shuttleworth, always a pleasure to catch up, thank you so much for the updates. >> Great to see you. >> All right, for Corey Quinn, I'm Stu Miniman. We'll be back with lots more coverage here from KubeCon + CloudNativeCon 2019 in Barcelona, Spain. Thanks for watching theCUBE. (upbeat music)

(upbeat electronic music) >> Announcer: Live from Vancouver, Canada, it's theCUBE, covering OpenStack Summit North America 2018. Brought to you by Red Hat, the OpenStack Foundation, and its ecosystem partners. >> Welcome back to The Cube's coverage of OpenStack Summit 2018 in Vancouver. I'm Stu Miniman with my co-host John Troyer. Happy to welcome back a company we've spoken to a few times at events, Paddy Power Betfair. First time guest coming to us from across the pond, Dave Buckley who is the automation engineer with Paddy Power Betfair, thanks for joining us. >> Thank you for having me. >> Alright, so first of all, you've been to a couple summits and we've talked to Paddy Power about OpenStack. Before we get into your specific implementation, tell us about your experience here this week and any compare, contrast to previous years. >> Yeah so I'm very lucky, I got to come to the previous two summits in North America. I guess what I've enjoyed this week, it's kind of a slight tilt towards, it's away from being purely OpenStack, kind of towards this open infrastructure kind of thing, 'cause like I said, especially last year in Boston, Q and NEs was becoming a big thing. Yeah, and kind of, the OpenStack Foundation becoming kind of more, not that it wasn't before, but more community-based and being part of the ecosystem. So, yeah, I think it's been quite interesting seeing that. >> Not to put words in your mouth but, it was even, the last year or two, it's more aware of some of the complimentary things and adding pieces. You know, we had, one of the interviews we did this week was person who's the SIC lead for the Kubernetes stuff, that sits under another Foundation, things like that. Yeah, exactly. It's been quite interesting this week, I guess, sort the Kata Container project, which wasn't something I'd been aware of before Monday morning basically. I remember we were sitting in the keynotes, and they were like, you can have this container-like thing which has all the speed of a container, but it's as secure as a BM. And you're thinking, how, how is that even possible? So I've really enjoyed, I got to go to one of the sessions yesterday, one of the technical introductions on that. >> Yeah, I always love, there's certain things where, okay, this is what I'm going to do with my schedule, and turns into, this got announced, or I didn't know about this, and you knew, blow up my schedule, let me change everything else. Yeah, exactly, I think you always, you can't, you have to be flexible, right? Adaptable, and as the week goes on you just go to what you think is interesting. >> John: So Dave, you and your company have been working with OpenStack for quite a while. >> Dave: Yeah. >> And you obviously run a system that needs to be stable. Right, needs to, you take care of betting and people's money. >> Dave: Exactly. >> So that needs to be solid. But I understand you recently went though an upgrade and have some experiences talking about that? Can you talk a little bit about where you are with your OpenStack implementation and that sort of migration? >> Sure. So, I guess it's about three years ago, it was Betfair at the time, so this was before the merger of the two companies. So Betfair started using OpenStack, and I think it was actually the last time the summit was here, in Vancouver. So a couple of my colleagues who were kind of the technical leads at the time. Steve Armstrong and Steve Perera, they flew out here, to kind of get a feel for OpenStack, what it was, talk to people who'd had experiences with it. I actually think that conference back then was very informative of what the platform today now looks like. So some of the conversations they had there with people like New Age Networks and Arista, which we used for the switching, but conversations they had there kind of ended up being now what we're using in production. I guess over the past couple of years, so the big thing that happened obviously was this merger between Paddy Power and Betfair, following that they had an exercise which they called the single customer platform, which is annoyingly, for a sys-admin guy, kind of like me, they, it's always been abbreviated to SCP, but you have to ignore that. So that was to kind of consolidate and integrate the Paddy Power and Betfair co-bases and put it on a single platform, which was our OpenStack and Nuage platform. So that kind of completed in January this year, so that's live, so basically the Paddy Power sports book has an entirely new website, all running on OpenStack. A lot quicker and more efficient then the previous version. So that's been a real success. And as part of that, I should say that stability is really vital, so kind of in our business. If the site is down we don't make any money, and if it happens during a big sporting event you have a big problem. >> Do you have a metric around that? What a minute or an hour of down time would be? >> So I guess it always depends, so the nature of our traffic is very spikey. So obviously when you have a big, it's on a Saturday in Europe, the football, soccer, maybe I should say, is like a very big deal. >> We have a global audience, football's okay. >> I'll stick with football then. >> We were all watching the royal wedding. >> I don't want to talk about that. The football, if you, we just get peak traffic on that day. And, even within the year, there's a thing called the Grand National, which is a big event in the UK, big horse racing, I guess like the Kentucky Derby. It's kind of when we get our maximum traffic in the year. Yeah, you always need to be prepared for that. So one of the things as you mentioned, we kind of look into upgrade OpenStack from Kilo to Newton. So we've been on Kilo from the start. We're using Red Hat's distribution of OpenStack, so what Red Hat offer is this, they have like every three releases I think it is? They have this long release life-cycle. So that's kind of the reason we're going to Newton, cause we have kind of the, then the support will go to 2021. [Stu] - But if I remember, it's Red Hat the OpenStack Platform 10. >> Dave: Yeah. >> And 13 is going to be queened as their next one that's going to be released. >> Exactly, so I think they just announced that this week, right? So I think at some point in the next year or two we'd be going to queens. >> How do you determine when you make that jump and anything around the upgrade process, you know, good and bad that you could share. >> Dave: Yeah, so I guess going from, we were overdue an upgrade in this case, Kilos, you know, pretty old now. What we're lucky that we can do is because we have Nuage, it's like an external SDM provider, so the entire data plane is controlled by Nuage, and you can kind of plug as many OpenStacks as you like really into Nuage, and you offload all the networking to Nuage. So what's that's allowed us to do is basically we'd have had a lot of trouble if we'd had to do an in place upgrade, so I've actually been to one of the groups this week, quite a lot of people were talking about upgrades and just like all the nightmares it's caused. I know it's getting better as like the releases come out, but what we were able to do is kind of building new, an entirely new OpenStack cloud on the side of, so we've kind of turned it kind of an immutable OpenStack, so your OSB 7 cloud is there, we built this new OSB 10. But they're both circ into the same networking, so the same Nuage SDN. And the way our developers deploy their applications, I guess you want to see this in more detail, we've done presentations at these summits in the past, but kind of in short, every deployment we do immutable deployments as well, so for every deployment we'll create a new subnet within Nuage, and kind of do rolling update of your VMs that are on that new subnet into like a VIP which is kind of where the constant is, so all the traffic's come in to that VIP then you just flip things in and out below it when you do a deployment, so what that basically means is from a developers point of view, when they're migrating from OSB 7 to OSB 10 they'll essentially spin up new networks and new VMs in OSB 10 and that deployment pipeline will kind of just seamlessly, everything else will stay the same because the networking doesn't change. So we don't have to have any downtime on the data plane or the control plane. Which is really beneficial for us 'cause the way, I guess this is I'll just describe the way developers do deployments like we rely heavily on the OpenStack API being available. You pay a cost in that you, so you need extra hardware to do that I guess, but yeah we found it is something that's worked for us. >> John: Anything else with the networking and specifically that you all are running, the load balancing or resiliency that you need to have for your apps? >> Dave: Yeah so one of the things was, so it's kind of another problem there were trying to solve with this whole project, this new OpenStack platform is that historically Betfair, as it was at the time, had always run out of a single data-center. But we had another site, but it was mainly kind of a development environments right in there. So the company thought why don't we just have, we should just have both DCs for resiliency, try and run things in like an active-active configuration. Which is fine for external customer facing applications where we've had an external load balance server that can point traffic between the two DCs. But then the question is what do you do with internal apps? So this is what led us to use Avi Networks, which is kind of a cloud native load balancing technology, so we've been using to provide like GSLB internal laps, so basically we'll load balance traffic between the two data-centers so it gets deployed within your OpenStack environment, has a really neat integration with Nuage, the Nuage SDN layer, and will resolve you to whichever data-center is appropriate at that time. So if you have a full data-center outtage, you should be able to go "Okay, point stuff over there". >> John: So it makes you and the networking team or the IT team into the heroes not the villains, you're usually the people saying "No" or "We can't do that". >> I guess so, I guess so yeah you're probably right. It's cool technology though. I guess that we're very lucky and that we're given the opportunity by the people at the company to experiment with new things, so even though we're about stability but we're also about trying to push things forward in terms of what technology to use. >> Stu: Dave I'm curious how kind of the hybrid or multi-cloud type of environments fit into what you're doing today, give us the update there. >> Dave: Yeah so that's something very in our radar at the moment I guess it's, yeah it's what everybody's doing, looking to how you can have this hybrid cloud model. So I think, going back three years again, at that time, being like an online betting company, it's a highly regulated business and only at that point it was really possible to kind of put some of this stuff into the public cloud, it seems like things have come a long way, so it's something we're looking at at the moment, we're evaluating different solutions, different vendors like the Googles, AWSs, and seeing or even like some OpenStack public clouds and seeing maybe how could we migrate some workloads out into the public cloud, how do we want to that, to give us more resiliency, and also as I was saying about our spiky traffic, it just makes a lot of sense to be able to say burst out into whichever public cloud vendor on a Saturday when the football's on to deal with that peak load. So it's something we're very much looking at at the moment. But yeah no formal decisions as of yet. Unless they've done something while I've been away. >> John: With containers here at the show, lots of different threads right? Containers, Edge, the OpenDev track, things like that. Anything else, we've talked about Kata, anything else that came up that was interesting here that you just watch Kubernetes and container track as well? >> Dave: So I guess in terms of containers it's, sitting in the Keynotes on Monday you would, if you weren't watching if you were just listening, you probably wouldn't know you were at an OpenStack Summit right since there's as much Kubernetes container stuff as there is OpenStack. It's interesting so we've kind of been doing... Again, similar to the public cloud conversation, it's something that's very relevant to us at the moment, we've done kind of a few proof-of-concept ideas, evaluating different solutions, so we have like running a Cube cluster ourself, obviously we have a strong relationship with Red Hat that we've kind of explored to using OpenShift maybe, and then come the networking layer you can integrate with Nuage which would be really cool for us so it'll allow us to do kind of the all the networking, access control mechanisms as we do for our virtual machines. And again this is also something in the whole public cloud conversation is well if wanted to containers in the public cloud as well like you have all the different offerings, would we want to run our own, in like an AWS or something? Or maybe go to someone like Google where you have that supported self-service model I suppose. But yeah at the moment it's kind of at those stages so I think Steve did a presentation on the Kubernetes stuff like a PCO we done at the last Summit. But yeah still at the moment still want to make some firm decisions about which direction we're going to go but a lot of the developers a very keen for this and obviously for guys like us we all know the value of it so I think at the moment because we had that focus on stability we should now have a period of time where we're able to kind of look at all this stuff a bit more, hopefully get some container solutions into production which would be awesome. >> Stu: Dave Buckley we really appreciate you giving us the update, love to be able to do some of those longitudinal case studies as to where you've been where you're going, what you're thinking about. Be sure to check out thecube.net, you can actually search for Patty Power Betfair, see some of those previous interviews from Dave's peers. Loads more interviews there as well as all the shows we're going to be at in the future where hope you come by and say "Hi". For John Troyer I'm Stu Miniman, thanks so much for watching theCUBE. >> (electro-dance music) >> (soft piano)

>> Narrator: From Copenhagen, Denmark, it's theCUBE, covering KubeCon, and CloudNativeCon Europe 2018. Brought to you by the Cloud Native Computing Foundation, and its ecosystem partners. >> Okay, welcome back, everyone, live coverage here in theCUBE, in Europe, at Copenhagen, Denmark for KubeCon Europe 2018. This is theCUBE. We have the CNCF, at the Cloud Native Computing Foundation, part of the Linux Foundation. I'm John Furrier, co-host of theCUBE, with Lauren Cooney, the founder of SparkLabs, new venture around open source and innovation. Our analysts here, today with theCUBE, and our two guests are Michael Hausenblas, who's the direct developer advocate at Red Hat. Diane Meuller's the director of community development at Red Hat, talking about OpenShift, Red Hat, and just the rise and success of OpenShift. It's been really well-documented here on theCUBE, but certainly, in the industry, everyone's taking notice. Great to see you again, welcome to theCUBE, good to see you. >> Thank you. >> And wonderful to be here again. >> So, first of all, a lot of big news going on. CoreOS is now part of Red Hat, so that's exciting. I haven't had a chance to talk to you guys about that yet here on theCUBE, but great, great puzzle piece from the industry there for you guys, congratulations. >> Yeah, it's been a wonderful collaboration, having the CoreOS team as part of the Red Hat, and the OpenShift team, it's just a perfect fit. And the team from CoreOS, they've always been my favorite people. Alright, and Brandon Philips and the team over there are just awesome. And to have the expertise from Tectonics, the operator framework, which you'll hear more about here at KubeCon EU this week, to have Quay under the wings of Red Hat now, and Quay is a registry with OpenShift or with any other Kubernetes, you know, the stuff that they brought to the table, and the expertise, as well as the wonderful culture that they had, it was such a perfect fit with OpenShift. >> And you know, you guys bring a lot to the table, too. And I was, I mean, I've been kind of critical of CoreOS in the past, in a good way, 'cause I love those guys. I had good chats with them over the years, but they were so pure open-source guys, like Red Hat. >> Diane: Well, there's nothing wrong with being pure open-source. (laughing) >> No, no, I'm cool with that, but you guys have perfected the business more, you have great customers. So one of the things that they were always strong at was the open-source piece but when you start to monetize, and you start to get into the commercialization, it's hard for a start-up to be both, pure open-source and to monetize. You guys now have it together, >> Yeah. >> Great fit. >> So, it's a wonderful thing. We, on the OpenShift side, we have the OpenShift Commons, which is our open-source community, and we've sort of flipped the model of community development and that's at Red Hat. And one of the things is, they've been really strong, CoreOS, with their open-source projects, whether etcd, or you know, a whole myriad of other things. >> Well, let's double down on that. I want to get your thoughts. What is this OpenShift Commons? Take a minute to talk about what you guys had. You had an event Monday. It was the word on the streets, here in the hallways, is very positive. Take a minute to explain what happened, what's going on with that program? >> So OpenShift Commons is the open-source community around OpenShift Origin, but it also includes all the upstream projects that we collaborate with, with everybody from the Kubernetes world, from the Promytheus, all the CNCF project leads, all kinds of people from the upstream projects that are part of the OpenShift Ecosystem, as well as all the service providers and partners, who are doing wonderful things, and all the hosts, like Google, and you know, Microsoft Azure folks are in there. But, we've kind of flipped the model of community development on its head. In the past, if you were a community manager, which is what I started out as, you were trying to get people to contribute to your own code base. And here, because there's so much cross-community collaboration going on, we've got people working on Kubernetes. We got Kubernetes people making commits to Origin. We work on the OCI Foundation, trying to get the container stuff all figured out. >> So when you say you flipped the model, you mean there's now multiple-project contributions going on, or? >> Yeah, we've got our fingers in lots of pies now, and we have to, the collaboration has to be open, and there has to be a lot of communication. So the OpenShift Commons is really about creating those peer-to-peer networks. We do a lot of stuff virtual. I host my own OpenShift Commons briefings twice a week, and I could probably go to three or four days a week, and do it, because there's so much information. There's a fire hose of new stuff, new features, new releases, and stuff. Michael just did one on FAS. You did one before for the machine-learning Saigon OpenShift on Callum. >> Hold on, I want to just get your thoughts, Michael, on this, because what came up yesterday on theCUBE, was integration glue layers are really important. So I can see the connection here. Having this Commons model allows people to kind of cross-pollenate, one. Two, talk about integration, because we've got Promytheus, I might use KubeFlow. So there's new things happening. What does this mean for the integration piece? Good for it, or accelerating it? What's your thoughts? >> Right, right, right. So, I mainly work upstream which means when it is KubeFlow and other projects. And for me, these kind of areas where you can bring together both, the developers, and the end users, which is super important for us to get the feedback to see where we really are struggling. We hear a lot from those people that meet there, what their pinpoints are. And that is the best way to essentially shape the agenda, to say, well, maybe let's prioritize this over this other feature. And as you mention, integration being one big part, and Functions and Service being, could be considered as the visual basics of applications for Cloud Native Computing. It can act as this kind of glue between different things there. And I'm super excited about Commons. That's for me a great place to actually meet these people, and talk with them. >> So the Commons is almost a cross-pollination of folks that are actually using the code, building the code, and they see other projects that makes sense to contribute to, and so it's an alignment where you allow for that cross-pollination. >> It's a huge series of conversations, and one of the things that is really important to all of the projects is, as Michael said, is getting that feedback from production deployments. People who are working on stuff. So we have, I think we're at around 375 organizational members, so there's... >> John: What percentage of end-user organizations, do you think? >> It's probably about 50/50. You know, you can go to Commons.OpenShift.org, and look up the participants list. I'm behind a little bit in getting everybody in there, but-- >> John: So it's a good healthy dose of end-users? >> It's a good healthy dose of end-users. There's some special interest groups. Our special interest groups are more around used cases. So, we just hosted a machine-learning reception two nights ago, and we had about 200 people in the room. I'd say 50% of them were from the KubeFlow community, and the other 50% were users, or people who are building frameworks for our people to run on OpenShift. And so our goal, as always, is to make OpenShift the optimal, the best place to run your, in this case, machine-learning workloads, or-- >> And I think that's super critical, because one of the things that I've been following a little bit, and you know, I have your blog entry in front of me, is the operator framework, and really what you're trying to do with that framework, and how it's progressing, and where it's going, and really, if you can talk a little bit about what you're doing there, I think that would be great for our viewers. >> So what I'm going to do is I'm going to make sure you get Brandon Philips here, on your KubeFlow, sometime this week, 'cause I don't want to steal the thunder from his keynote tomorrow morning-- >> Lauren: Well, drop a couple hints. (laughs) >> John: Share a little bit, come on. >> So the operator stuff that CoreOS, and they brought it to the table, so it's really their baby. They had done a lot of work to make sure that they had first-class access to be able to inject things into Kubernetes itself, and make it run. And they're going to do a better technical talk on it than I am, and make things run. And so that what they've done is they've opened up and created an STK for operators, so other people can build more. And we think, this is a tipping point for Kubernetes, and I really don't want to steal any thunder here, or get in over my head, is the other part of it, too. >> I think Brandon is the right person to talk about that. >> Brandon, we'll drag Brandon over here. >> I'm super excited about it, but let's-- >> Yeah, let's talk about why you're super excited about it. Is there anything you can kind of tell us in terms of what? >> Enables people to run any kind of workload in communities, in a reliable automated fashion. So you bring the experience that human operators have into software. So you automate that application, which makes it even more suitable to run your enterprise application that so far might have not been the best place to run. >> Lauren: That's great, yeah. >> And yeah, I'm also looking forward to Brandon explaining the details there. >> So I think it's great hearing about that, and we talk a lot about how it's great for users. It's great, you know, operators, developers, how they're building things out, and things along those lines. But one of the things that we are not hearing a ton about here, and we want to hear more about, is security. Security is increasingly important. You know, we're hearing bits and pieces but nothing's really kind of coming together here and what're your thoughts on that? >> Security, I was recently, when I blogged about it, and people on Twitter said, well, is that really true that, you know, couldn't this secure body fall? It's like, well, all the pieces are there. You need to be aware of it. You need to know what you're doing. But it is there, right? All the defaults might not be as you would expect it, but you can enable it. And I think we did a lot of innovations there, as well. With our back, and security context, and so on. And, actually, Liz Rice and myself are working on putting the security cookbook, and for a variety that will come out later this year. We're trying to document the best practice, because it is early days, and it's quite a range of things. From building container images in a secure way, to excess control, and so on, so there's a lot of stuff (mumbles). >> What're some of the end-user feedback sessions, or feedback data that you're getting from these sessions? What is some of the things you guys are hearing? What's the patterns? What's the things that are boiling up to the top? >> Well, there's so many. I mean, this conference is one of those ones where it's a cornucopia of talks, and trying to, I just wrote a little blog post called, The Hitchhiker's Guide to KubeCon. It's on blog.openshift.com. And because, you could spend all of your time here in a different track, and never leave it, like Security 1, or in Operations 1, or-- >> John: There's a lot of great content. >> I think the Istio stuff is probably the hottest thing I'm hearing people going to. There was a great deep-dive training session, hands-on on Monday, here, that got incredible feedback. IBM and Google did that one. We had a lot of customer talks and hands-on training sessions on Monday. Here, there are pretty much, there's a great talk coming up this afternoon, on Kube Controllers that Magic... I think that's at 11:45-ish. There are a lot of the stuff around Service Fish, and service brokers, is really kind of the hot thing that people are looking for to get implemented. And we've got a lot of people from Red Hat working on that. There's, oh man, there's etcd updtes, there's a bazillion things going-- >> John: It's exploding big time here. >> Yeah. >> No doubt about it. >> The number one thing that I'm seeing last couple of months, being onsite with customers, and also here, is that given that Kubernetes is now the defective standard of container authorization, people are much more willing to go all-in, you know? >> Yeah. >> A lot of folks were on the fence, for a couple of years, going like, which one's going to make it? Now, it's kind of like, this is a given. You couldn't, you know, just as Linux is everywhere on the servers, that's the same with Kubernetes, and people are now happy to really invest, to like, okay, let's do it now, let's go all in. >> Yeah, and, what we're hearing, too, just stepping back and looking at the big picture is we see the trend, kind of hearing and connecting the dots, as the number of nodes is going to expand significantly. I mean, Sterring was on stage yesterday, and we heard their, and still small, not a lot of huge, not a lot on a large scale. So, we think that the scale question is coming quickly. >> Well, I think it already came, alright? In the machine-learning reception that we had at night, one of the gentleman, Willem Bookwalter, from Microsoft, and Diane Feddema, from Red Hat, and a whole lot of people are talking about how do we get, because machine-learning workloads, have such huge work, you know, GPU, and Google has their TPU requirements to get to scale, to run these things, that people are already pushing the envelope on Kubernetes. Jeremy Eater from Red Hat has done some incredible performance management work. And on the CNCF blog, they've posted all of that. To get the optimal performance, and to get the scale, is now, I think, one of the next big things, and there's a lot of talks that are on that. >> Yeah, and that's Istio's kind of big service mesh opportunity there, is to bring that to the next level. >> To the next level, you know, there's going to be a lot of things that people are going to experience trying to get the most out of their clusters, but also, I think we're still at the edge of that. I mean, someone said something about getting to 2,500 nodes. And I'm like, thinking, that's just the beginning, baby. >> Yeah, it's going to be more, add a couple zeroes. I got to ask you guys, I got to put you both on the spot here, because it's what we do on theCUBE. You guys are great supporters of theCUBE. We appreciate that, but we've had many conversations over the years with OpenShift, going back to OpenStacks, I don't know what year it was, maybe 2012, or I don't know. I forget what year it was. Now, the success of OpenShift was really interesting. You guys took this to a whole 'nother level. What's the reaction? Are you, as you look back now on where you were with OpenShift and where you are today, do you pinch yourself and say, damn? Or what's your view? >> Red Hat made a big bet on Kubernetes three years ago, three and a half years ago, when people thought we were crazy. You know, they hadn't seen it. They didn't understand what Google was trying to open-source, and some of the engineers inside of Red Hat, Clayton Coleman, Matt Hicks, a lot of great people, saw what was coming, reached out, worked with Google. And the rest of us were like, well, what about Ruby and Rails, and Mongo DB, and you know, doing all this stuff? And like, we invested so much in gears and cartridges. And then, once they explained it, and once Google really open-sourced the whole thing, making that bet as a company, and pivoting on that dime, and making version 3.0 of OpenShift and OpenShift Origin, as a Kubernetes-based platform, as a service, and then, switching over to being a container platform, that was a huge thing. And if you had talked to me back then, three years ago, it was kind of like, is this the right way to go? But, then, you know, okay. >> Well, it's important to history to document that point, because I remember we talked about it. And one of the things, you guys made a good bet, and people were scratching their head, at that time. >> Oh yeah. >> Big time. But also, you've got to give credit to the community, because the leaders in the community recognized the importance of Kubernetes early on. We've been in those conversations, and said, hey, you know, we can't screw this up, because it was an opportunity. People saw the vision, and saw it as a great opportunity. >> I think, as much as I like the technical bits, as an engineer, the API being written and go, and so on, I really think the community, that is what really makes the difference. >> Yeah, absolutely does. >> If you compare it with others, they're also successful. But here with CNCF, all the projects, all the people coming together, and I love the community, I really-- >> It's a case study of how to execute, in my opinion. You guys did a great job in your role, and the people didn't get in the way and try to mess it up. Great smart people understood it, shepherded it through, let it grow. >> And it really is kudos to the Kubernetes community, and the CNCF, for incubating all of this wonderful cross-community collaboration. They do a great job with their ambassadors program. The Kubernetes community does amazing stuff around their SIGs, and making sure that projects get correctly incubated. You know, they're not afraid to rejig the processes. They've just done a wonderful thing, changing the way that new projects come into the Kubernetes, and I think that willingness to learn, learn from mistakes, to evolve, is something that's really kind of unique to the whole new way of thinking about open-source now, and that's the change that we've seen. >> And open-source, open movements, always have a defining moment. You know, the OSI model, remember? That stack never got fully standardized but it stopped at a really important point. PCPIP, IP became really important. The crazy improbability world, CISCO, as we know, and others. This is that kind of moment where there's going to be a massive wealth creation, value creation opportunity because you have people getting behind something, as a de facto standard. And then, there's a lot of edge work around it that can be innovated on. I think, to me, this is going to be one of those moments we look back on. >> Yeah, and I think it's that willingness to adjust the processes, to work with the community, and you know, that Kubernetes, the ethos that's around this project, we've learned from a lot of other foundations' mistakes. You know, not that they're better or worse, but we've learned that you could see the way we're bringing in new projects, and adding them on. We took a step back as a community, and said okay, this is, we're getting too many, too soon, too fast. And maybe, this is not quite the right way to go. And rather than doing the big tent umbrella approach, we've actually starting doing some really re-thinking of our processes, and the governing board and the TOC of the CNCF, have done an awesome job getting that done. >> When you got lightning in a bottle, you stop and you package it up, and you run with it, so congratulations. Red Hat Summit next week, we'll be there, theCUBE. >> Oh yeah. >> Looking forward to going deep on this. >> Well, the OpenShift Commons Gathering is the day before Red Hat Summit. We've completely sold out, so sorry, there's a waitlist. We've gone from being, our first one, I think we had 150 people come. There's over 700 people now coming to the Gathering one, and 25 customers with production deployments speaking. This is the day before Red Hat Summit. And I lost count of how many OpenShift stories are being told at Red Hat Summit. It's going to be a crazy, jetlag-y week, next week, so-- >> Congratulations, you guys got a spring in your step, well done. OpenShift going to the next level, certainly the industry and Kubernetes, a service mesh as Istio. Lot of great coverage here in theCUBE, here in Europe for KubeCon 2018 in Copenhagen, Denmark. I'm John Furrier, and Lauren Cooney, the founder of SparkLabs. I'm with theCUBE, we'll be back with more live coverage. Stay with us! Day Two, here at KubeCon, we'll be right back. (upbeat techno music)

>> Announcer: Live from Austin, Texas, it's theCUBE. Covering KubeCon and CloudNativeCon 2017. Brought to you by: Red Hat, the Linux Foundation, and theCUBE's ecosystem partners. >> Hey, welcome back everyone. And we're live here in Austin, Texas. This is theCUBE's exclusive coverage of the Cloud Native conference and KubeCon for Kubernetes Conference. This is for the Linux Foundation. This is theCUBE. I'm John Furrier, the co-founder of Silicon ANGLE Media. My co, Stu Miniman. Our next guest is Dustin Kirkland Vice-President of product. The Ubuntu, Canonical, welcome to theCUBE. >> Thank you, John. >> So you're the product guy. You get the keys to the kingdom, as they would say in the product circles. Man, what a best time to be-- >> Dustin: They always say that. I don't think I've heard that one. >> Well, the product guys are, well all the action's happening on the product side. >> Dustin: We're right in the middle of it. >> Cause you got to have a road map. You got to have a 20 mile steer on the next horizon while you go up into the pasture and deliver value, but you always got to be watching for it always making decision on what to do, when to ship product, not you got the Cloud things are happening at a very accelerated rate. And then you got to bring it out to the customers. >> That's right. >> You're livin' on both sides of the world You got to look inside, you got to look outside. >> All three. There's the marketing angle too. which is what we're doing here right now. So there's engineering sales and this is the marketing. >> Alright so where are we with this? Because now you guys have always been on the front lines of open source. Great track record. Everyone knows the history there. What are the new things? What's the big aha moment that this event, largest they've had ever. They're not even three years old. Why is this happening? >> I love seeing these events in my hometown Austin, Texas. So I hope we keep coming back. The aha moment is how application development is fundamentally changing. Cloud Native is the title of the Cloud Native Computing Foundation and CloudNativeConference here. What does Cloud Native mean? It's a different form of writing applications. Just before we were talking about systems programing right? That's not exactly Cloud Native. Cloud Native programming is writing to API's that are Cloud exposed API's, integrating with software as a service. Creating applications that have no intelligence, whatsoever, about what's underneath them, Right? But taking advantage of that and all the ways that you would want and expect in a modern application. Fault tolerance, automatic updates, hyper security. Just security, security, security. That is the aha moment. The way applications are being developed is fundamentally changing. >> Interesting perspective we had on earlier. Lew Tucker from Cisco, (mumbles) in the (mumbles) History Museum, CTO at Cisco, and we have Kelsey Hightower co-chair for this conference and also very active in the community. Yet, in the perspective, and I'll over simplify and generalize it, but basically was: Hey, that's been going on for 30 years, it's just different now. Tell us the old way and new way. Because the old way, you kind of describing it you're going to build your own stuff, full stack, building all parts of the stack and do a lot of stuff that you didn't want to do. And now you have more, especially time on your hands if DevOps and infrastructure as code starts to happen. But doesn't mean that networking goes away, doesn't mean storage goes away, that some new lines are forming. Describe that dynamic of what's new and the new way what changes from the old way? >> Virtualization has brought about a different way of thinking about resources. Be those compute resources, chopping CPU's up into virtual CPU's, that's KVM ware. You mentioned network and storage. Now we virtualized both of those into software defined storage and software defined networking, right? We have things like OpenStack that brings that all together from an infrastructure perspective. and we now have Kubernetes that brings that to fare from an application perspective. Kubernetes helps you think about applications in a different way. I said that paradigm has changed. It's Kubernetes that helps implement that paradigm. So that developers can write an application to a container orchestrator like Kubernetes and take advantage of many of the advances we've made below that layer in the operating system and in the Cloud itself. So from that perspective the game has changed and the way you write your application is not the same as a the monolithic app we might have written on an IBM or a traditional system. >> Dustin, you say monolithic app versus oh my gosh the multi layered cake that we have today. We were talking about the keynote this morning where CNCF went from four projects to 14 projects, you got Kubernetes, You got things like DSDU on top. Help up tease that a little bit. What are the ones that, where's canonical engaged? What are you hearing from customers? What are they excited about? What are they still looking for? >> In a somewhat self-serving way, I'll use this opportunity to explain exactly what we do in helping build that layered cake. It starts with the OS. We provide a great operating system, Ubuntu that every developer would certainly know and understand and appreciate. That's the kernel, that's the systemd, that's the hyperviser, that's all the storage and drivers that makes an operating system work well on hardware. Lot's of hardware, IBM, Dell HP, Intel, all the rest. As well as in virtual machines, the public Clouds, Microsoft, Amazon, Google, VM ware and others. So, we take care of that operating system perspective. Within the CNCF and within in the Kubernetes ecosystem, It really starts with the Kubernetes distribution. So we provide a Kubernetes distribution, we call it Canonicals Distribution of Kubernetes, CDK. Which is open source Kubernetes with security patches applied. That's it. No special sauce, no extra proprietary extensions. It is open source Kubernetes. The reference platform for open source Kubernetes 100% conformed. Now, once you have Kubernetes as you say, "What are you hearing from customers?" We hear a lot of customers who want a Kubernetes. Once they have a Kubernetes, the next question is: "Now what do I do with it?" If they have applications that their developers have been writing to Google's Kubernetes Engine GKE, or Amazon's Kubernetes Engine, the new one announced last week at re:Invent, AKS. Or Microsoft's Kubernetes Engine, Microsoft-- >> Microsoft's AKS, Amazons EKS. A lot of TLA's out there, always. >> Thank you for the TLA dissection. If you've written the applications already having your own Kubernetes is great, because then your applications simply port and run on that. And we help customers get there. However, if you haven't written your first application, that's where actually, most of the industry is today. They want a Kubernetes, but they're not sure why. So, to that end, we're helping bring some of the interesting workloads that exists, open source workloads and putting those on top of Canonical Kubernetes. Yesterday, we press released a new product from Canonical, launched in conjunction with our partners at Rancher Labs, Which is the Cloud Native platform. The Cloud Native platform is Ubuntu plus Kubernetes plus Rancher. That combination, we've heard from customers and from users of Ubuntu inside and out. Everyone's interested in a developer work flow that includes open-source Ubuntu, open-source Kubernetes and open-source Rancher, Which really accelerates the velocity of development. And that end solution provides exactly that and it helps populate, that Kubernetes with really interesting workloads. >> Dustin, so we know Sheng, Shannon and the team, they know a thing or two about building stacks with open source. We've talked with you many times, OpenStack. Give us a little bit of compare and contrast, what we've been doing with OpenStack with Canonical, very heavily involved, doing great there versus the Cloud Native stacking. >> If you know Shannon and Sheng, I think you can understand and appreciate why Mark, myself and the rest of the Canonical team are really excited about this partnership. We really see eye-to-eye on open source principles First. Deliver great open source experiences first. And then taking that to market with a product that revolves around support. Ultimately, developer option up front is what's important, and some of those developer applications will make its way into production in a mission critical sense. Which open up support opportunities for both of us. And we certainly see eye-to-eye from that perspective. What we bring to bare is Ubuntu ecosystem of developers. The Ubuntu OpenStack infrastructure is a service where we've seen many of the world's largest organizations deploying their OpenStacks. Doing so on Ubuntu and with Ubuntu OpenStacks. With the launch of Kubernetes and Canonical Kubernetes, many of those same organizations are running their own Kubernetes along side OpenStack. Or, in some cases, on top of OpenStack. In a very few cases, instead of Openstack, in very special cases, often at the Edge or in certain tiny Cloud or micro Cloud scenarios. In all of these we see Rancher as a really, really good partner in helping to accelerate that developer work flow. Enabling developers to write code, commit code to GitHub repository, with full GitHub integration. Authenticate against an active directory with full RBAC controls. Everything that you would need in an enterprise to bring that application to bare from concept, to development, to test into production, and then the life cycle, once it gains its own life in production. >> What about the impact of customers? So, I'm an IT guy or I'm an architect and man, all this new stuff's comin' at me. I love my open source, I'm happy with space. I don't want to touch it, don't want to break it, but I want to innovate. This whole world can be a little bit noisy and new to them. How do you have that conversation with that potential customer or customer where you say, Look, we can get there. Use your app team here's what you want to shape up to be, here's service meshes and plugable, Whoa plugable (mumbles)! So, again, how do you simplify that when you have conversations? What's the narrative? What's the conversation like? >> Usually our introduction into the organization of a Fortune 500 company is by the developers inside of that company who already know Ubuntu. Who already have some experience with Kubernetes or have some experience with Rancher or any of those other-- >> So it's a bottoms up? >> Yeah, it's bottoms up. Absolutely, absolutely. The developer network around Ubuntu is far bigger than the organization that is Canonical. So that helps us with the intro. Once we're in there, and the developers write those first few apps, we do get the introductions to their IT director who then wants that comfy blanket. Customer support, maybe 24 by seven-- >> What's the experience like? Is it like going to the airport, go through TSA, and you got to take your shoes off, take your belt off. What kind of inspection, what is kind of is the culture because they want to move fast, but they got to be sure. There's always been the challenge when you have the internal advocate saying, "Look, if we want to go this way "this is going to be more the reality for companies." Developers are now major influencers. Not just some, here's the product we made a decision and they ship it to 'em, it's shifted. >> If there's one thing that I've learned in this sort of product management assignment, I'm a engineer by trade, but as a product manager now for almost five years, is that you really have to look at the different verticals and some verticals move at vastly different paces than other verticals. When we are in the tele close phase, We're in RFI's, requests for a quote or a request for information that may last months, nine months. And then go through entering into a procurement process that may last another nine months. And we're talking about 18 months in an industry here that is spinning up, we're talking about how fast this goes, which is vastly different than the work we do in Silicon Valley, right? With some of the largest dot-coms in the world that are built on Ubuntu, maybe an AWS or else where. Their adoption curve is significantly different and the procurement angle is really different. What they're looking to buy often on the US West Coast is not so much support, but they're looking to guide your roadmap. We offer for customers of that size and scale a different set of products something we call feature sponsorships, where those customers are less interested in 24 by seven telephone support and far more interested in sponsoring certain features into Ubuntu itself and helping drive the Ubuntu roadmap. We offer both of those a products and different verticals buy in different ways. We talked to media and entertainment, and the conversation's completely different. Oil and gas, conversation's completely different. >> So what are you doing here? What's the big effort at CloudNativeCon? >> So we've got a great booth and we're talking about Ubuntu as a pretty universal platform for almost anything you're doing in the Cloud. Whether that's on frame infrastructure as a service, OpenStack. People can coo coo OpenStack and point OpenStack versus Kubernetes against one another. We cannot see it more differently-- >> Well no I think it's more that it's got clarity on where the community's lines are because apps guys are moving off OpenStack that's natural. It's really found the home, OpenStack very relevant huge production flow, I talk to Johnathon Bryce about this all the time. There's no co cooing OpenStack. It's not like it's hurting. Just to clarify OpenStack is not going anywhere its just that there's been some comments about OpenStack refugees going to (mumbles), but they're going there anyway! Do you agree? >> Yeah I agree, and that choice is there on Ubuntu. So infrastructure is a service, OpenStack's a fantastic platform, platforms as a service or Cloud Native through Cloud Native development Kubernetes is an excellent platform. We see those running side by side. Two racks a systems or a single rack. Half of those machines are OpenStack, Half of those are Kubernetes and the same IT department manages both. We see IT departments that are all in OpenStack. Their entire data center is OpenStack. And we see Kubernetes as one workload inside of that Openstack. >> How do you see Kubernetes impact on containers? A lot of people are coo cooing containers. But they're not going anywhere either. >> It's fundamental. >> The ecosystem's changing, certainly the roles of each part (mumbles) is exploding. How do you talk about that? What's your opinion on how containers are evolving? >> Containers are evolving, but they've been around for a very long time as well. Kubernetes has helped make containers consumable. And doctored to an extent, before that the work we've done around Linux containers LXE LEXT as well. All of those technologies are fundamental to it and it take tight integration with the OS. >> Dustin, so I'm curious. One of the big challenges I have the U face is the proliferation of deployments for customers. It's not just data center or even Cloud. Edge is now a very big piece of it. How do you think that containers helps enable the little bit of that Cloud Native goes there, but what kind of stresses does that put on your product organization? >> Containers are adding fuel to the fire on both the Edge and the back end Cloud. What's exciting to me about the Edge is that every Edge device, every connected device is connected to something. What's it connected to, a Cloud somewhere. And that can be an OpenStack Cloud or a Kubernetes Cloud, that can be a public Cloud, that could be a private implementation of that Cloud. But every connected device, whether its a car or a plane or a train or a printer or a drone it's connected to something, it's connected to a bunch of services. We see containers being deployed on Ubuntu on those Edge devices, as the packaging format, as the application format, as the multi-tendency layer that keeps one application from DOSing or attacking or being protected from another application on that Edge device. We also see containers running the micro services in the Cloud on Ubuntu there as well. The Edge to me, is extremely interesting in how it ties back to the Cloud and to be transparent here, Canonical strategy and Canonical's play is actually quiet strong here with Ubuntu providing quite a bit of consistency across those two layers. So developers working on those applications on those devices, are often sitting right next to the developers working on those applications in the Cloud and both of them are seeing Ubuntu helping them go faster. >> Bottom line, where do you see the industry going and how do you guys fit into the next three years, what's your prediction? >> I'm going to go right back to what I was saying right there. That the connection between the Edge and the Cloud is our angle right there, and there is nothing that's stopping that right now. >> We were just talking with Joe Beda and our view is if it's a shoot and computing world, everything's an Edge. >> Yeah, that's right. That's exactly right. >> (mumbles) is an Edge. A light in a house is an Edge with a processor in it. >> So I think the data centers are getting smarter. You wanted a prediction for next year: The data center is getting smarter. We're seeing autonomous data centers. We see data centers using metals as a service mask to automatically provision those systems and manage those systems in a way that hardware look like a Cloud. >> AI and IOT, certainly two topics that are really hot trends that are very relevant as changing storage and networking those industries have to transform. Amazon's tele (mumbles), everything like LAN and serverless, you're starting to see the infrastructure as code take shape. >> And that's what sits on top of Kubernetes. That's what's driving Kubernetes adoption are those AI machine learning artificial intelligence workloads. A lot of media and transcoding workloads are taking advantage of Kubernetes everyday. >> Bottom line, that's software. Good software, smart software. Dustin, Thanks so much for coming theCube. We really appreciate it. Congratulations. Continued developer success. Good to have a great ecosystem. You guys have been successful for a very long time. As the world continues to be democratized with software as it gets smarter more pervasive and Cloud computing, grid computing, Unigrid. Whatever it's called it is all done by software and the Cloud. Thanks for coming on. It's theCube live coverage from Austin, Texas, here at KubeCon and CloudNativeCon 2017. I'm John Furrier, Stu Miniman, We'll be back with more after this short break. (lively music)

>> Announcer: Boston, Massachusetts It's theCUBE. Covering OpenStack Summit 2017. Brought to you by the OpenStack Foundation, RedHat, and additional ecosystem support. (upbeat techno music fades out) >> Hi, I'm Stu Miniman, joined by John Troyer, and this is theCUBE, SiliconANGLE Media's live broadcast of OpenStack 2017 here in beautiful Boston, Massachusetts. Actually, the clouds have been breaking up, a little bit of sunshine here, and it's our third day of broadcasts. We have really a lot of our editorial segment today. Going to be talking to more community members, talking to one of the Superuser winners, a number of startups, and happy to start the day, Lisa-Marie Namphy who is the US OpenStack ambassador. CUBE alum, been on a number of times. Lisa, tell us what's new in your world. >> Thank you Stu, and thanks John and what a pleasure to be here with you folks, and hello, Boston and world, good morning. What's new, well the OpenStack ambassador program is expanding all the time, we just had a great session that Sonia did to kick off the day today to really talk about, you know, how to get involved in OpenStack, even if you're not necessarily a technical person. It's really important to acknowledge how everybody in our community can contribute, and that's one of the things the ambassador program does really well. So we just had a session on that. One of the things that I've done with our user group that is new and super exciting is I've morphed it into a little bit of the OpenStack in Containers user group. So I've been focusing a lot on containers, done 12 or 13 meetups on Kubernetes and or Docker since last summer, and I just had the pleasure of speaking in the CNCF communities track, communities day track yesterday, and that was so much fun, out there in the grand ballroom, so that's kind of some new and fun things we're doing. >> It's great, this is our fifth year doing theCUBE at this show, always a robust community, really. When we started coming, it was the people building it, Now we have a lot of the users, there's different sub-segments, can you speak a little bit to the kind of maturity of the community, and, you know how do people get involved in the ambassador program, how many are there geographically, number wise, diversity, those kind of things. >> Oh gosh, yeah so it's geo, or it's a worldwide program and it's been going a lot, and you're right, you know years ago, here it was the Design Summit, and we sat around and talked about, you know the next six months of the project, and then it morphed into more users, adoption, customers, operators are a really big one too. And now those things are all so big, we have operators, Midcycles, and all and the Design Summit has been, you know sequestered off into, separated out so that we can really focus here on the customers, the community, users, and those type of contributors as well. So things have changed a lot in the seven years since we've been doing OpenStack. The ambassador program is fantastic. The foundation has done a really good job in the last couple of years of acknowledging the contributions of the user community, and so not necessarily the code contributors only, but the people who are also spending as much time contributing in really significant ways to our community, and growing our commnity. Open source doesn't work without a community. So we know that, and we're doing a much better job of acknowledging who those people are and rewarding them. >> John: How many ambassadors worldwide? >> There's about twenty of us. I'm the only one in the US right now, but we're about to change that. I believe my friend Sheila is going to join and cover the East Coast, and I'll be able to do everything west of the Mississippi, but most countries only have one, and... >> And the role of an ambassador, do you do a lot of meetups? Do you go speak? You're there as a, for people to contact as well, right? >> Yeah, we generally recruit or ask people to be ambassadors if they are already doing those things, if they're already running a local user group, if they already have a brand in OpenStack, and they speak, and they kind of already know how to reach out to people, and how to inspire people, or people see them on stage, and that's why the foundation approached me to do it. I had been running the San Francisco Bay area meetup for three years, and speaking, I don't know this is probably my eighth, ninth, maybe tenth OpenStack Summit that I've been speaking at, and OpenStack days and all of that. And so, you kind of see who's already doing it. The cool thing about community is nobody is asked to do it, like you do it because you have a passion for it, because you love it, because it's the right thing to do, because it's helpful to push the technology forward because you have a passion for the technology, because you love people, all these reasons is why people get into it. So you find all over the world people who are doing this. They're already doing it and they're not being paid to do it they're doing it, those are the people you grab, because you know, there is a burnout level to it but those are the people who have enough passion about it and commitment, and believe in community that they're going to be successful at it. >> Can you talk a little bit about the Bay Area OpenStack user group? It's one of the largest OpenStack user groups, and one of the themes we've seen this week is a lot of talk about containers, a lot of talk about, well, Kubernetes, but containers in general, kind of demystifying the sometimes confusing story about where's OpenStack good for, where's the container layer good for, it turns out it's good for a couple different places, you can containerize OpenStack, you can also... A lot of talk about the app layer on top, but you actually, what you just said, you've actually expanded the conversation, you don't just sit there and say "this month we're talking about Neutron," you talk about a lot of different topics, and you bring people to the table. >> Yeah, San Francisco area, you are correct, it is the world's largest OpenStack user group, we have over 6,000 members. Not all of them are located in the Bay Area, I think people like to join the user group because we provide a lot of really good content, and we live stream our meetups, we have Google Hangouts, I record them all, they're all on our calendar, if you go to meetup.com/openstack, you get to us because we were the first one. So we do get a lot of people from around the world, and I write newsletters with lots of interesting information but it is a local community and we do encourage people to participate, so the meetups are super important and the only way to make sure that you keep your community strong and keep people coming back is to have phenomenal content in your meetups. So I work really hard to make sure that the content is interesting, that it's relevant, and the most exciting, most relevant conversation since last summer has been containers. The year before that it was networking, and it still kind of is and always will be. So we do a lot of meetups on networking, too, but containers has been what people want to talk about. They're trying to figure this out. OpenStack has reached a maturity level where people, you know, they're not necessarily learning or if they are they can take an OpenStack 101 course and those exist all over the place. So we've gone to the next level, and whether it was Cloud Foundry or now Containers we do like to talk about what else you can do with this fabulous technology, and how you should do it. So we've had meetups where we've presented OpenStack on communities, communities on OpenStack, where I personally came in and did a whole meetup on Kubernetes as the underlay, and Rob Starmer came in and did a whole workshop and hands-on about how to run OpenStack on containers. Yesterday our panel, you heard Dan Berg talk about just simplifying it, run everything in a container, but keep it as simple as possible, so what pieces do you need? So these are the conversations that we like to have in our user group, and people keep coming back because it's an exciting conversation. >> Yeah, expanding on that, you talked about just people are always coming, new people to the community that don't know it, people that are changing jobs all the time, new technologies, I mean, we all know community building is a constant, you know, reinvention in something, you keep needing to work How do the ambassadors, how do stay energized on it, how do you keep the momentum and the energy of the community going? >> Yeah, well the cool thing about an open source community is no matter where you're working, you're still part of the community. So I've worked with so many other people here, I don't even know where they are sometimes. I mean we don't tend to talk about what company we're actually working for, or who's paying your paycheck, and especially in the early days of the project that was definitely true, and so some of my good friends have been at four different companies in the time that we've been doing this OpenStack thing, but we're all still working on OpenStack, and I suspect Kubernetes will be very similar, or Docker. You know, how many people are working on Docker? But there's only 200 people that work for Docker, right? So these technologies kind of take on these lives of their own, and people do switch jobs a lot, but people come to meetups because it's a constant thing, and it's also a good place to keep networking and keep looking for work, so we got a lot of that. The beginning of every meetup, I ask for a show of hands of who's hiring. If I ask for who's looking, not everybody raises their hand but if you ask who's hiring, there's a lot of people hiring all the time, and so then the people can look around and say "okay I'm going to go talk to those people," so yeah, the networking is an important part. >> On that point, are you seeing any trends as to what are the roles that they're hiring for, or you know, companies or industries that definitely have changing skillsets, you know John spent a lot of time helping all those virtualization people moving to that next thing, what are you seeing? >> Engineering is the big one, and people are still looking for OpenStack engineers. I mean people ping me all the time, saying "do you know any OpenStack engineers?" So that's usually the number one thing, developers to help build out these things, and then also the companies that, you know, that aren't OpenStack companies, you know companies like GE that are trying to hire what, 20,000 developers in the next couple years, and Mercedes and Tesla, and you see all these companies that are trying to build out their software developer programs. So another role that is interesting that people are hiring for is these developer, DevRel, Developer IVC community roles to try to figure out, you know how are we going to build our developer community within our company? If these are really large companies, or you know, companies like IBM which have interest in things like the Apache Spark community, or you know, you find these pockets in these large companies as well. Or there's a lot of startups, you know unlike, probably not like Docker as much, but Kubernetes is going to have this ecosystem of partners that build around it, and these companies are popping up out of the woodwork and they're growing like crazy, and there's like 30 of them in the Bay Area, right? So they're really trying to expand as well. >> I wanted to ask about the general mood of the summit. My first summit... You know, it happens every six months. I've been impressed by how grounded people are, I see a lot of first time attendees, people starting new OpenStack installations in 2017 right now, here to learn... I'm just kind of curious, over the last couple summits is there anything different you see about here in Boston, anything you're looking forward to going to in the next one, in terms of kind of mood and how people are, are people feeling good, are people, you know, are people still puzzling out this container issue, or are people still talking about public versus private, or what are kind of the mood and conversations you hear from other community members? >> I think people are talking about public versus private again, not still right? I mean is it, that was kind of an interesting one, and I think Johnathan brought it up on main stage on the first day about that kind of readoption of private cloud, and that you know, we knew that was a sweet spot for OpenStack particularly in the US. You know, lots of public clouds running on other parts of the world, but that's a fun conversation, and it's containers of course, but not just containers. I think it was maybe Lauren Sell who put the slide up of all of those other technologies that are, you know affiliate now, and... >> Another ecosystem of open source projects >> Lisa: Yeah, yeah >> that can all interoperate with openstack. >> With Cloud Foundry, and Ansible was up there, and Ceph, and you had a slide full of technologies, OpenDaylight, that are all playing a role here and that the conversation has been about, and I just encouraged in the ambassador session and in the meetup sessions to do that with your meetup. Our meetup has been really successful and the people have loved it because we started bringing in this other technology. People want to talk about IoT, they want to talk about AI, they want to talk about machine learning, so there's those, they want to talk about, you know what are the best use cases for OpenStack so we showcased to GoDaddy what they built with Docker on top of OpenStack. So there's a lot of fun conversations to be had right now, and I think there's a buzz around here, you know that, what, day one when Johnathan put the slide up saying, you know, people have predicted the end of OpenStack and that was like four years ago or whatever, that was an awesome slide, right? I'm sure talked to him about it. >> Yeah, I absolutely traded notes, and caught opinion about it, too. Lisa, you live in The Valley, I'm curious about perception in The Valley, you know, OpenStacks now been around seven years, it's kind of, you know, it's matured, it's moved on, some called it boring because we fixed some of the main issues, you know We mentioned all the OpenStack days with you know Cloud Foundry, Kubernetes, all these software pieces on top, what do you hear in The Valley when people talk about OpenStack, any misperceptions you'd want to clarify? >> Yeah, yeah it's not boring. It's funny when you say to a California girl "you live in The Valley," I'd be like, "let's just say The Silicon Valley." Not the, not the other Valley. >> Stu: Not the Valley girl >> Don't make me start talking like that, right? >> Stu: Oh my god! (laughs) >> Right, so, no. It's never boring, it's never... It hasn't been boring from day one, and there's been times where I felt like okay we've been talking about infrastructure for years now, let's talk about some other things, but I love the way at this conference they're talking about, they're calling it the "open infrastructure conference." You know, this is what OpenStack has become, and that just opens the conversation. You know, I love that shift. There's always something exciting to talk about, and I don't mean the little inside baseball things, like should we have done Big Ten, should Stackalytics go away, I mean, you know people like to talk about that stuff, but I don't find that customers or the people at the meetups are talking about that stuff. People at the meetups are talking about you know, how should we run this with Kubernetes? How do these technologies fit together? You know, lots of different things, you know where does Docker play into it? Networking is still a conversation and a problem to still be solved, and how are we going to do this? We had OpenContrail do a meetup with us a couple of weeks ago. There's still a lot of interest in figuring out the networking piece of it, and how to do that better. So we're never going to run out of things to talk about. >> Alright, so how do more people get involved, how do they find their meetups, where do they find resources? >> Most of, openstack.org has a list of all the communities, but most of the communities use meetup.com, almost globally, so if you go to meetup.com, and you put in your geo, you'll find one. You can contact your local ambassador. If you want to get involved, I say just go to a meetup. I mean you can't start leading communities until you participate in communities. There is no way to phone this in. You have to, it's hands-on, roll up your sleeves, let's get to work and participate, and have some fun. So go to a local meetup, and meet your meetup organizers, volunteer, help, and it's so rewarding. Some of my best friends that I have, I've met through OpenStack or open source projects. It creates many opportunities for jobs. So just start going to meetups and get involved, and if you want to be an ambassador, there's a list on the website of how to figure that out. Tom Fifield runs the whole program with Sonia's help out of Australia, but regionally we're always looking for help. There's no shortage of roles that people can play if people really want to. >> Definitely a vibrant community here, doing well, Lisa-Marie Namphy, always a pleasure to catch up with you, and we have a full day of programming coming, so stay tuned and thank you for watching the cube. >> Lisa: Thanks Stu, thanks John. (upbeat techno music)

>> Voiceover: Live from Boston, Massachusetts, it's the Cube, covering OpenStack Summit 2017. Brought to you by the OpenStack Foundation, Red Hat, and additional Ecosystem as support. >> Welcome back, I'm Stu Miniman joined by John Troyer. This is Silken Angle Media's production of the Cube at OpenStack Summit. We're the world wide leader in tech coverage, live tech coverage. Happy to welcome back to the program someone we've had on so many times we can't keep track. He is the creator of the term Pets versus Cattle, he is one of the OG of The Cloud Group, Randy, you know, wrote about everything before most of it was done. So good to see you, thank you for joining us. >> Thanks for having me. >> Alright, so Randy, coming into this show we felt that it was a bit of resetting expectations, people not understanding, you know, where infrastructure's going, a whole hybrid multi-cloud world, so, I mean you've told us all how it's going to go, so where are we today, what have people been getting wrong, what's your take coming into this week and what you've seen? >> Well, I've said it before, which is that the public clouds have done more than just deliver compute storage and networking on demand. What they've really done is they've built these massive development organizations. They're very sophisticated, that are, you know, that really come from that Webscale background and move at a velocity that's really different than anything we've seen before, and I think the hope in the early days of OpenStack was that we would achieve a similar kind of velocity and momentum, but I think the reality is is that it just hasn't really materialized; that while there are a lot of projects and there are a lot of contributors the coordination between them is very poor, and you know it's just not the, like architectural oversight that we really needed isn't there. I, a couple years ago at the Openstack Silicon Valley gave a presentation called The Lie of the Benevolent Dictator, and I chartered a course for how we could actually have more of a technical architecture oversight, and just that really fell on deaf ears. And so we continue to do the same thing and expect different results and I just, that's a little disappointing for me. >> Yeah. So what is your view of hybrid cloud? You know, no disagreement, you look at what the public cloud companies, especially the big three, the development that they can do, Amazon, a thousand new features a year, Google, what they can do with data, Microsoft has a whole lot of applications and communities around them. We're mostly talking about private cloud here, it was a term that you fought against for many years, we've had great debates on it, so how does that hybrid play out? Cause customers, they're keeping on premises. Edge fits into a lot of this too, so it's, there's not one winner, it's not a zero sum game, but how does that hybrid cloud work? >> Yeah so, I didn't fight against private cloud, I qualified it. I said if it's going to be a private cloud it's got to be built and look and smell the way that the public cloud was. Alright? If it's just VM ware with VM's on demand, that's not a private cloud. That was my position. And then in terms of hybrid cloud, you know, I don't think we're there yet. I've presented on this at many different OpenStacks, you can see it in the past, and I sort of laid out what needs to happen and that didn't happen. But I think there's hope, and I think the hope comes in the form of Kubernetes, and to a certain degree, Helm. And the reason that Kubernetes with Helm is very powerful is that Kubernetes gives us a computive traction, so that you don't care if you're on the public cloud, or you know OpenStack or Vmware or whatever, and then what Helm gives us is our charts, so ways to deploy services, not just software, and so what we could think about doing in the future is building hybrid cloud based off of Kubernetes and Helm. >> Yeah, so Randy since last time we talked you've got a new role, you're now with Juniper. Juniper had done a Contrail acquisition. You know, quite a few years back you wrote a good blueprint on one of the Juniper forums about the OpenContrail communities. So tell us a little bit about your role, your goals, in that community. >> So OpenContrail has been a primarily Juniper initiative, and we're going to press the reset button on the OpenContrail community. I'm going to do it tonight and call for people to sort of get involved in doing that reset, and when I say reset I mean, wipe the operating system, reload it from scratch, and do it really as a community, not just as a Juniper run initiative, and so people inside Juniper are very excited about this, and what we're trying to do is that we believe that the path forward for OpenContrail is ubiquitous adoption. So rather then playing for just the pieces that we have, which we've done a great job of, we want to take the world's best SDN controller and we want to make sure everybody uses it, because we think aggregate that's good for not only the entire community but also Juniper. >> So, love the idea of kind of rebooting the community in the open, right, because you have to be transparent about these sort of things. >> Randy: Yeah, that's right. >> What are the community segments that you would like to see join you here in the OpenContrail? What kind of users, what kind of companies would you like to see come in to the tent? >> Well anybody's welcome, but we want to start with all of our key stakeholders that exist today, so first one, and arguably one of the most important is our competitors, right so we're hoping to have Mirantis at the table, maybe Ericcson, Huawei, anybody. Cisco, hey come join the party. Second is that we have done really well in Sass and in gaming, and we'd like to see all of those companies come to the table as well, Workday, Symantech, and so on. The third segment is enterprises, we've done well in financial services, we think that that's a really important segment because they're leading edge of enterprises typically, and the fourth is the carrier's obviously incredibly important for Juniper, folks like AT&T, Direction Telecom, all those companies we'd love to see come to the table. And then that's really the primary focus, and then anybody else who wants to show up, anybody who wants to develop in Contrail in the future we'd love to have there. >> Well with open source communities, right, there's always a balance of the contributors and developers versus operators, and we can use the word contributors in a lot of roles. Some open source communities, much more developer focused, >> Randy: That's right. >> Others more operator focused, where do you see this OpenContrail community starting out? >> So where it's been historically is more of our end users and operators. >> I think that's interesting and an interesting twist because I think sometimes open source communities get stuck with just the people who can contribute code, and I'm from an operator community myself, >> Randy: Right. >> So I think that's really interesting. >> We still want all those people but I think what has happened is that when people have come in and they wanted to be more sort of on the developer side, the community hasn't been friendly to them. >> John: Okay. >> Randy: And so we want, that's a key thing that we want to change. You know when we were talking, to certain carriers they came and they said look, it's great you're going to do this, we want to be a part of it, and one of the things we'd like to contribute is more advanced testing around VMFs. And I just look at that and I'm just like that's what we need, right? Juniper is not, can't carry all the water on having, you know, sophisticated test suites for VMFs and more advanced networking use cases, but the carriers are deep into this and we'd love to have them come and bring that. So not just developers, but also QA, people who want to increase the code quality, the architectural quality, and the aggregate value of OpenContrail. >> Okay, Randy can you help place OpenContrail where it fits in this kind of networking spectrum, especially, there's open source things, we've talked about about VPP a couple times on theCube here. The joke for many years was SDN still does nothing, NFV solutions have grown, have been huge use case, is really where the early money for big deployments have been for OpenStack. Where does OpenContrail fit, where does it kind of compare and contrast against some of the other options out there. >> I'm going to answer that slightly differently. I've been skeptical about SDN overlays for a long time, and now I am helping with one of the world's best SDN overlays, and what's changed for me is that in the last year I've seen key customers of Contrail's, of Juniper's actually do something very interesting, right. You've got an SDN overlay, it's complex, it's hard to void, you got to wonder, why should I do this? Well I thought the same thing about virtualization, right, until I figured out, sort of what was the killer app. And what we've seen is a company, one of our customers, and several others, but one in particular I can talk about publicly, Riot Games, take containers and OpenContrail and marry them so that you have an abstraction around compute, and an abstraction around networking, so that their developers can write to that, and they don't care whether that's running on top of public cloud, private cloud, or in some partner's data center globally. And in fact they're going to talk about that today at OpenContrail days at 3:30, and are going to present a lot more details, and that's amazing to me because by abstracting a way and disintermediating the public clouds, you actually have more power, right. You can build your own framework. And if you're using Kubernetes as a baseline you can do a lot more on top of that computing network abstraction. >> You talked about OpenContrail days, again my first summit, I've actually been impressed by the foundation, acknowledging there's a huge landscape of open source and other technologies around there, OpenStack itself doesn't invent everything. Can you talk a little bit about that kind of attitude of bringing, I mean we talk about Kubernetes and that sort of thing, but all the other CNCF projects, monitoring, even components like SCD, right, we're talking about here at this conference. So, can you talk a little bit about how OpenStack can interact with the rest of the open source and cloud native at-large community? >> That's sort of a tough question John. >> John: Okay. >> I mean the reason I say that is like the origins of OpenStack are very much NIH and there has been a very disturbing tendency to sort of re-invent the wheel. A great example is Keystone, still to this day I don't know why Keystone exists and why we created a whole new authentic standard when there were dozens and dozens of battle-tested, battle-hardened protocols and bits of code that existed prior. It's great that we're getting a little bit better at that but I still sense that the origins of the community and some of the technical leadership have resistance to organizing and working with outside components and playing nice. So, it's better but it's not great, it's not where it should be. Really OpenStack needs to be broken down into a lot of different projects that can compete with each other and all run in parallel without having to be so tightly wound together. It's still disappointing to me that we aren't doing that today. >> Randy, wonder if you could give us a little bit of a personal reflection, you've been involved in cloud many years, we've talked about some of the state of it, where do you think enterprises are when they think about their IT, how IT relates to business, some of the big challenges they're facing, and kind of this rapid pace of change that's happening in our industry right now >> Yeah well the pressures just increase. The need to pick up speed and to move faster and to have a greater velocity, that's not going away, that seems to be like an incredible macro-trend that's just going to keep driving people towards the next event. But what I see is that the tension between the infra-structure IT teams and the line of business hasn't really started to get resolved. You see a lot of enterprises back into using DevOps as a way to try to fix the culture change problems but it's just not happening fast enough. I have a lot of concerns that basically private cloud or private infra-structure for enterprises will just not materialize in the way it needs to for the next generation. And that the line of business will continue to just keep moving to public cloud. All the while all the money that's being reinvested in the public cloud is increasing their capabilities in terms feature sets and security capabilities and so on. I just, I don't see the materialization of private cloud happening very well at this point in time and I don't see any trendlines that tell me it's going to change. >> Yeah, what recommendations do you give today to the OpenStack foundation? I know that you haven't been shy in the past about giving guidance as to the direction, what do you think needs to happen to be able to help customers along that journey that they need? >> I don't give any guidance to the OpenStack Foundation anymore, I'm not on the Board of Directors, and frankly I gave a lot of advice in the past that fell on deaf ears and people were unwilling to make the changes that were necessary I think to create success. And even though I was eventually proven right, there doesn't seem to be an appetite for change. I would say that the hard partition between the Board of Directors and the technical committee that was created at the outset with the founding of the Foundation has let to a big problem which is that there's simply business concerns that are technical concerns and there are technical concerns which are business concerns and the actual structure of the Foundation does not allow that to occur because that hard partition between them. So if people on Board of Directors can't actually tell the TC that they'd like to see certain technical changes because they're business concerns and Technical Committee can't tell the Board of Directors they'd like to see business changes made because they're technical concerns around them. And I think that's, it's fundamentally broken until the bylaws are fixed. >> So Randy beyond what we've talked about already what's exciting you these days, you look at like the serverless trend, is that something that you find intriguing or maybe contrary view on it, what's exciting you these days? >> Serverless is really interesting. In fact I'd like to see serverless at the edge. I think it would be fascinating if Amazon webservices could sell a serverless capability that was actually running in the mobile carriers edge. So like on the mobile towers or in essential offices. But you could do distributive computation for IOT literally at the very edge of the network, that would be incredibly powerful. So I am very interested in serverless in that regard. With Kubernetes, I think that this is the future, I think I've seen most of the other initiatives start to fail at this point. Docker Incorporated just hasn't made the progress they need to, hopefully a change in leadership will fix that. But it does mean that more and more people are gravitating towards Kubernetes and that's a thing because whereas OpenStack is historically got no opinion, Kubernetes is a much more prescriptive model and I think that actually leads to faster innovation, a greater pace of change and combined with Helm charts, I think that we're going to see an ecosystem develop around Kubernetes that actually could be a counterweight to the public clouds and really be sort of cloud agnostic. Private, public, at the edge, who cares? >> Randy Bias, always appreciated your very opinionated viewpoints on everything that are happening here. Pleasure to catch up with you as always. John and I will be back will lots more coverage here from OpenStack Summit in Boston, thanks for watching the Cube.

>> Announcer: Live from Austin, Texas. It's theCUBE, covering DockerCon 2017. Brought to you by Docker, and support from its ecosystem partners. (bright electronic music) >> Welcome back. I'm Stu Miniman, joined by Jim Kobielus for two days of theCUBE's live coverage, DockerCon 2017, here in Austin, Texas. We are the worldwide leader in live enterprise tech coverage, happy to welcome to the program, a first-time guest on theCUBE, happens to also be a local here in the Austin area, so Dustin Kirkland, the Ubuntu Product and Strategy, with Canonical, thanks so much for joining us. >> Thanks, Stu. >> All right, so Dustin, give us a good thumbnail, what's your role, and how excited are you to be at another local show. All the open source shows seem to be here in Austin. I mean, we love doing it. >> I'm super glad. >> Dustin: We love sharing Austin. Glad for people to come and visit. Just make sure you go home at the end of it. (chuckles) >> Jim: Keep Austin weird and keep it open. >> That's right, that's right. Yeah, it's great to be local, it's great to have the Docker community back in Austin. It was, a lot of these people were here for OpenStack. We'll be back for CubeCon later this year. OSCON in between. >> All right, and tell us a little bit about your role. >> Yes, so I lead Product and Strategy at Ubuntu. We make an operating system that runs in the cloud, on public clouds, private clouds, bare-metal, physical servers, down to desktops and embedded devices. >> Okay, so, I have a serious question for you. Every time we see the surveys of OpenStack, the surveys in the public cloud, Canonical's always there. I mean, everybody's using your stuff. >> Dustin: Good! >> But where are people paying money for it? What's kind of from the business standpoint, maybe you can give us the quick update on that. >> People pay money when it's mission-critical. When Ubuntu and OpenStack and soon, Kubernetes, certainly more and more, Docker, when that's part of the mission-critical infrastructure, they pay for that. They pay the support and the services, they pay for consulting, for design, for leads, for architecture. They pay for access to the product roadmap, and so we do have some really brand-name customers who pay us good money for that. >> Okay, it's our third year doing theCUBE at this show, and every year, it seems we come in with one of the same questions, which is like, all right, is this ready for production, is anybody using it? We backed you to knock down the doors of everybody here, and give us more customers to talk to, so, what do you see, what's your answer to that? >> Yeah, I mean, it strikes me as really odd when people are still asking, "Are containers ready "for production?" Containers have been part of our DNA in Ubuntu for almost 10 years now. Shipping an OS that boots into a container that's able to run LXD containers, Docker containers, and run those at tremendous scale. We'd run containers underneath as the control plane of every OpenStack cloud we've ever deployed, every Kubernetes cloud we've ever deployed, every Hadoop cloud we've ever deployed. So containers are part of our production system. >> So do you guys have a marketing term? You guys are the hipster Linux container company. You were doing it before it was cool. >> I guess so, I mean it's, I guess, it's like asking, and I wonder, you think cellphones are mainstream yet? It's like, yeah, it is now, but you're probably one of the first in your family to have a cellphone, right? It's, we're kind of at that juncture, where we've been doing for a long time, and it's good to see others finally taking advantage as well. >> In the keynote this morning, we talked, we saw a lot about the maturation of Docker. They really started out working with the developer, they've really grown, working with the business, working with the enterprise. Talk to us about your customers as it fits into the container space in general, Docker, specifically. What are you guys seeing? >> As an operating system that delivers the latest and greatest open source software across multiple architectures, public and private clouds, Docker fits into that very well, in fact. It sits alongside LXD at giving that machine container, replace your VM's experience, but also the new way of writing applications. Solomon talked about applications, and if you're going to develop an application, Docker is a great application development platform. So when applications are being developed, (mumbles) or microservices, from scratch, Docker is a fantastic approach, and we see more developers using Ubuntu desktops and Ubuntu in the cloud, as that development platform. As that matures, then we get into a situation where it becomes mission-critical, and then we have really interesting commercial discussions around how do we really help that platform succeed? >> All right, we just Microsoft on the program. >> Dustin: John, right? >> Yeah, John was on, talks about, (mumbles) Microsoft is talking about being open, Microsoft's talking about choice. They actually talked, John mentioned, your company and your operating system. When we get to cloud solutions, Canonical's supported everywhere. How do you guys differentiate? How do you make sure that they're choosing your product as opposed to something else? >> So Ubuntu itself, always latest and greatest. It's fresh, you're never more than six months away from the next latest and greatest everything across the board. You're never more than two years away from an LTS, a long-term support release. That's really the key differentiator for Ubuntu is its freshment, its velocity, and that maps very well to the container world, where things are revving very, very quickly. >> All right, security was a big focus this morning also. What's your viewpoint as to where security lives, how that works with all of your environment, and what you guys do for that-- >> I've been a security nerd for most of my career. In fact, it's one of those jobs you leave but you always kind of get sucked back into because you care about it, honestly. Ubuntu as a platform, security, we take very seriously. Encryption anywhere, we can use encryption, updates, latest and greatest updates, kernel patches, Livepatch for the kernel. (coughs) Livepatch for the kernel is particularly interesting from a security perspective because it enables us to address security vulnerabilities without rebooting systems, and that's really important in a containerized environment, where you're not just running one or two machines, you're running potentially thousands of machines or containers or applications, and being able to update one single kernel with a Livepatch, without rebooting any of them, that's what security people are excited about when we talk Ubuntu kernel and security. >> (mumbles) Ubuntu being deployed into Internet of things, or to what extent is your roadmap going in that direction 'cause we're seeing a lot of new development going into the Internet of things, to deploy artificial intelligence and deep learning algorithms and data, down to the edge, and so-- >> Yeah, it's beautiful, I mean, that edge-to-cloud story is something that we've got a very clear view on. We produce an OS, an Ubuntu OS called Ubuntu Core, is a read-only operating system custom-tailored for IoT devices. That's the OS, it's the same Ubuntu but rolled and managed and updated in a different way. Applications fit onto that device in the form of snaps, or Docker containers, frankly. They're a little bit different in the way that they're implemented, but we have a new packaging system that's well-adapted, well-tuned-- >> A snap is more, something different from a container, how? >> It is, it's a form of a container. It's less than a container, but it uses some of the same container primitives. It's, frankly, it's an archive and a set of security profiles that wrap that tarball, essentially, and the way it's executed in a very secure manner, so it's wrapped with AppArmor profiles, it only has access to certain parts of the system, it contains its own dependencies, but they're contained in such a way that they're protected from the rest of the system. A lot of that sounds like Docker, and it is similar to Docker, but Docker provides a little bit more of that machine experience. Docker will include a file system, it'll draw an IP address sometimes, or defroute traffic, whereas a snap actually runs directly on the underlying OS. It's more tightly linked to that OS. In terms of linking back to the machine learning, that happens in the cloud. Inevitably, IoT drives more cloud adoption because those little IoT devices, they've got so little processing power and storage by design, that information needs to go somewhere, and it goes to the cloud, where something like a TensorFlow, running in a Docker Swarm, or a Kubernetes, or some combination of those two, are really crunching the interesting problems. >> First, Google recently made a big to-do about federating more of the machine learning algorithms all the way to the edge device, so, the world is going in that direction but I hear you. That's, they're very constrained-- >> Dustin: We hear a lot about the edge. >> To run the algorithms that pull power on the edge device, but it's coming. >> Yeah, for sure. >> Great. >> Stu: All right, so Dustin, I heard Kubernetes and Swarm, you guys, agnostic to that, support all of it. >> Dustin: We are. >> What do you guys code on, what do you hear from customers? >> Yeah, so we're very proud of our position here. I'm here at DockerCon, supporting Docker. Docker Inc. is a close commercial partner of Canonical. We, Canonical is authorized to resell Docker Enterprise Edition, Docker services, Docker support. We've got mutual customers who buy that directly from Canonical, and we support Docker and Swarm and Datacenter on top of Ubuntu, and that's a great story that brings us from the developers who are running Docker on Ubuntu on their Macs and Windows machines. John, I'm sure, was talking about Windows and Docker. But when they put that into production, we've got the wherewithal to support that. We offer Kubernetes as another platform. I've spoken with some really bright, just last night, with a really bright cloud architect from a major Internet service provider, and their role is they set up Docker Swarms for their internal customers, and Kubernetes Clusters for their internal customers, and Cloud Foundries, and OpenStacks, all inside of this big telco Internet cable giant, and it makes sense, and they can do all of that, and do all of that on top of Ubuntu, because it's the platform that can offer whatever they need for their customers. >> All right, one of the other announcements in the keynote this morning was LinuxKit, so, I got a little bit of a preview before the show, and I don't feel that it was Docker trying to punch at the providers of Linux, and it didn't seem to come off that way in the keynote, but for those that hear at a glance, oh, wait, LinuxKit developed with a bunch of, you know, seems like mostly hardware companies plus Microsoft and Docker. What do you guys see, how do you look at that? >> It's genuinely fun for an open source engineer to put together a Linux distribution. It's like the thing you want to do, and customize it and tailor it, and the beauty of open source is you can absolutely do that, and so, what I saw from LinuxKit, I too got a little preview, it seems it comes out of the part of Docker that also works on unikernels, Alpine, to an extent, and they've built a container-optimized, or Docker-optimized OS from Docker, so if you want Docker all the way down, it sounds like LinuxKit is a solution that they're working on, still working on. I'll say that Ubuntu, containers are in our DNA, we built a kernel and we built a security system around containers for quite some time, and we continue to optimize that, and we work directly with Microsoft, Google, Amazon to ensure that the Ubuntu that's running in those public clouds is ready to run Docker and other container systems out of the box, and very consistently, in a way that looks exactly like the Ubuntu that's running as the bash shell on the Windows desktop, as the Ubuntu desktop itself, as the server that you might run in any one of the public clouds. It's a very consistent experience. We do tune that and tailor that, but it's in ways that ensures portability. >> All right, so Dustin, you talked about kind of the history and how long people have been using it. Production should not be a question. It's just where, what, how you're doing this. What things do you still see us needing to mature, or what excites you about this going forward? >> Yeah. The management, honestly, and that comes back to security. Ensuring that running those containers at scale, you're doing that in a secure manner. Minimal is part of it. We hear that quite a bit, that, "I want a minimal image, I want a minimal host." That is an important part of it. It's, we have to be a little bit careful that we don't go so minimal that we end up creating a bunch of snowflakes, special unicorns where every container image is a little bit different, every host is a little bit different, because it's more minimal than the previous one. That actually creates more security problems, so I think thinking that problem through is, it's one of the most important problems that I think through, or I'm working on right now, and I think others are interested in working on as well. >> All right, Dustin, you've been way too pleasant through all of this interview, so before we end up, as an Austin local here, I have to ask you the divisive question. Your favorite barbecue place. (Dustin groans) >> You know-- >> Jim: Your favorite bar band, too. Keep going. >> Okay, yeah, I mean, you can't go wrong with the award-wining Franklin's barbecue or the gas station Rudy's, we love those. My favorite's a little hole in the wall out close to where I live. It's a trailer that's been serving barbecue out of that trailer since 1997. It's called Bee Caves barbecue. Those guys, they put together some fantastic barbecue five days a week. They sell it until they're out, and then they close up the shop and they go fishing, and it's, you got to get there early, and when they're done, they're done, so I-- >> Yeah, is there a connection between people that make barbecue and people that put together Linux distributions? It sounds like a lot of the same thing. >> Maybe so, maybe so, yeah. I've got a smoker out back. I like to smoke meat as much as I can. >> Absolutely, all right, well, Dustin, really appreciate you joining us. Welcome to the >> Stu, thank you, Jim. >> Stu: CUBE alumni list now, and we'll be back with more coverage here from DockerCon 2017. You're watching theCUBE. (bright electronic music) >> I remember--

>> Narrator: Live from the Silicon Valley, it's theCUBE. (bright music) Covering Google Cloud Next 17. >> Hi, and welcome to the second day of live coverage here of theCUBE covering Google Next 2017. We're at the heart of Silicon Valley here at our 4,500 square foot new studio in Palo Alto. We've got a team of reporters and analysts up in San Francisco checking out everything that's happening in Google. I was up there for the day two keynote, and happy to have with me is the first guest of the day, friend of theCUBE, Marc Farley, Vulcancast, guy that knows clouds, worked for one the big three in the past and going to help me break down some of what's going on in the marketplace. Mark, it's great to see you. >> Oh, it's really nice to be here, Stu, thanks for asking me on. >> Always happy to have you-- >> And what a lot of fun stuff to get into. >> Oh my god, yeah, this is what we love. We talked about, I wonder, Amazon Reinvent is like the Superbowl of the industry there. What's Google there if, you know-- >> Well, Google pulls a lot of resources for this. And they can put on a very impressive show. So if this is, if Invent is the Superbowl, then maybe this, maybe Next is the college championship game. I hate to call it college, but it's got that kind of draw, it's a big deal. >> Is is that, I don't want to say, arena football, it's the up and coming-- >> Oh, it's a lot better than that. Google really does some spectacular things at events. >> They're Google, come on, we all use Google, we all know Google, 10,000 people showed up, there's a lot of excitement. So what's your take of the show so far in Google's positioning in cloud? >> It's nothing like the introduction of Glass. And of course, Google Glass is a thing of the past, but I don't know if you remember when they introduced that, when they had the sky diver. Sky divers diving out of an airplane and then climbing up the outside of the building and all that, it was really spectacular. Nobody can ever reach that mark again, probably not even the Academy Awards. But you asked the second part of the question, what's Google position with cloud, I think that's going to be the big question moving forward. They are obviously committed to doing it, and they're bringing unique capabilities into cloud that you don't see from either Amazon or Microsoft. >> Yeah. I mean, coming into it, there's certain things that we've been hearing forever about Google, and especially when you talk about Google in the enterprise. Are they serious, is this just beta, are they going to put the money in? I thought Eric Schmidt did a real good job yesterday in the close day keynote, he's like, "Look, I've been telling Google to push hard "in the enterprise for 17 years. "Look, I signed a check for 30 billion dollars." >> 30 billion! >> Yeah, and I talked to some people, they're a little skeptical, and they're like, "Oh, you know, that's not like it all went to build "the cloud, some of it's for their infrastructure, "there's acquisitions, there's all these other things." But I think it was infrastructure related. Look, there shouldn't be a question that they're serious. And Diane Greene said, in a Q&A she had with the press, that thing about, we're going to tinker with something and then kill it, I want to smash that perception because there's certain things you can do in the consumer side that you cannot get away with on the enterprise side, and she knows that, they're putting a lot of effort to transform their support, transform the pricing, dig in with partners and channels. And some of it is, you know, they've gotten the strategy together, they've gotten the pieces together, we're moving things from beta to GA, and they're making good progress. I think they have addressed some of the misperceptions, that being said, everybody usually, it's like, "I've been hearing this for five years, "it's probably going to take me a couple of years "to really believe it." >> Yeah, but you know, the things is, for people that know Diane Greene and have watched VMware over the years, and then her being there at Google is a real commitment. And she's talking about commitment when she talks about that business. It's full pedal to the metal, this is a very serious, the things that's interesting about it, it's a lot more than infrastructure as a service. >> Yeah. >> The kinds of APIs and apps and everything that they're bringing, this is a lot more than just infrastructure, this is Google developed, Google, if you will, proprietary technology now that they're turning to the external world to use. And there's some really sophisticated stuff in there. >> Yes, so before we get into some of the competitive landscape, some of the things you were pretty impressed with, I think everybody was, the keynote this morning definitely went out much better, day one keynote, a little rocky. Didn't hear, the biggest applauses were around some of the International Women's Day, which is great that they do that, but it's nice when they're like, "Oh, here's some cool new tech," or they're like, oh, wow, this demo that they're doing, some really cool things and products that people want to get their hands on. So what jumped out at you at the keynote this morning? >> I'm trying to remember what it's called. The stuff from around personal identifiable information. >> Yeah, so that's what they call DLP or it's the Data Loss Prevention API. Thank goodness for my Evernote here, which I believe runs on Google cloud, keeping up to date, so I'm-- >> Data loss prevention shouldn't be so hard to remember. >> And by the way, you said proprietary stuff. One thing about Google is, that Data Loss Prevention, it's an API, they want to make it easy to get in, a lot of what they do is open source. They feel that that's one of their differentiations, is to be, we always used to say on the infrastructure side, it's like everybody's pumping their chest. Who's more open than everybody else? Google. Lots of cool stuff, everything from the TensorFlow and Kubernetes that's coming out, where some of us are like, "Okay, how will they actually make money on some of this, "will it be services?" But yeah, Data Loss Prevention API, which was a really cool demo. It's like, okay, here's a credit card, the video kind of takes it and it redacts the number. It can redact social security numbers, it's got that kind of machine learning AI with the video and all those things built in to try to help security encrypt and protect what you're doing. >> It's mind boggling. You think about, they do the facial recognition, but they're doing content recognition also. And you could have a string of numbers there that might not be a phone number, it might not be a social security number, and the question is, what DLP flagged that to, who knows, it doesn't really matter. What matters is that they can actually do this. And as a storage person, you're getting involved, and compliance and risk and mitigation, all these kinds of things over the years. And it's hard for software to go in and scan a lot of data to just look for text. Not images of numbers on a photograph, but just text in a document, whether it's a Word file or something. And you say, "Oh, it's not so hard," but when you try to do that at scale, it's really hard at scale. And that's the thing that I really wonder about DLP, are they going to be able to do this at large scale? And you have to think that that is part of the consideration for them, because they are large scale. And if they can do that, Stu, that is going to be wildly impressive. >> Marc, everything that Google does tends to be built for scale, so you would think they could do that. And I'd think about all the breaches, it was usually, "Oh, oops, we didn't realize we had this information, "didn't know where it was," or things like that. So if Google can help address that, they're looking at some of those core security issues they talked about, they've got a second form factor authentication with a little USB tab that can go into your computer, end to end encryption if you've got Android and Chrome devices, so a lot of good sounding things on encryption and security. >> One of the other things they announced, I don't know if this was part of the same thinking, but they talk about 64 core servers, and they talk about, or VMs, I should say, 64 core VMs, and they're talking about getting the latest and greatest from Intel. What is it, Skylink, Sky-- >> Stu: Skylake. >> Skylake, yeah, thanks. >> They had Raejeanne actually up on stage, Raejeanne Skillern, Cube alumn, know her well, was happy to see her up on stage showing off what they're doing. Not only just the chipset, but Intel's digging in, doing development on Kubernetes, doing development on TensorFlow to help with really performance. And we've seen Intel do this, they did this with virtualization with the extensions that they did, they're doing it with containers. Intel gets involved in these software pieces and makes sure that the chipset's going to be optimized, and great to see them working with Google on it. >> My guess is they're going to be using a lot of cycles for these security things also. The security is really hard, it's front and center in our lives these days, and just everything. I think Google's making a really interesting play, they take their own internal technology, this security technology that they've been using, and they know it's compute heavy. The whole thing about DLP, it's extremely compute heavy to do this stuff. Okay, let's get the biggest, fastest technology we can to make it work, and then maybe it can all seem seamless. I'm really impressed with how they've figured out to take the assets that they have in different places, like from YouTube. These other things that you would think, is YouTube really an enterprise app? No, but there's technology in YouTube that you can use for enterprise cloud services. Very smart, I give them a lot of credit for looking broadly throughout their organization which, in a lot of respects, traditionally has been a consumer oriented experience, and they're taking some of these technologies now and making it available to enterprise. It's really, really hard. >> Absolutely. They did a bunch of enhancements on the G Suite product line. It felt at times a little bit, it's like, okay, wait, I've got the cloud and I've got the applications. There are places that they come together, places that data and security flow between them, but it still feels like a couple of different parts, and how they put together the portfolio, but building a whole solution for the enterprise. We see similar things from Microsoft, not as much from Amazon. I'm curious what your take is as to how Google stacks up against Microsoft who, disclaimer, you did work for one time on the infrastructure side. >> Yeah, that's a whole interesting thing. Google really wants to try to figure out how to get enterprises that run on Microsoft technology moving to Google cloud, and I think it's going to be very tough for them. Satya Nadella and Microsoft are very serious about making a seamless experience for end users and administrators and everybody along managing the systems and using their systems. Okay, can Google replicate that? Maybe on the user side they can, but certainly not on the administration side. And there are hooks between the land-based technology and the cloud-based technology that Microsoft's been working on for years. Question is, can Google come close to replicating those kinds of things, and on Microsoft's side, do customers get enough value, is there enough magic there to make that automation of a hybrid IT experience valuable to their customers. I just have to think though that there's no way Google's going to be able to beat Microsoft at hybrid IT for Microsoft apps. I just don't believe it. >> Yeah, it's interesting. I think one of the not so secret weapons that Google has there is what they're doing with Kubernetes. They've gotten Kubernetes in all the public clouds, it's getting into a lot of on premises environment. Everything from we were at the KubeCon conference in Seattle a couple of months ago. I hear DockerCon and OpenStacks Summit are going to have strong Kubernetes discussions there, and it's growing, it's got a lot of buzz, and that kind of portability and mobility of workload has been something that, especially as guys that have storage background, we have a little bit of skepticism because physics and the size of data and that whole data gravity thing. But that being said, if I can write applications and have ways to be able to do similar things across multiple environments, that gives Google a way to spread their wings beyond what they can do in their Google cloud. So I'm curious what you think about containers, Kubernetes, serverless type activity that they're doing. >> I think within the Google cloud, they'll be able to leverage that technology pretty effectively. I don't think it's going to be very effective, though, in enterprise data centers. I think the OpenStack stuff's been a really hard road, and it's a long time coming, I don't know if they'll ever get there. So then you've got a company like Microsoft that is working really hard on the same thing. It's not clear to me what Microsoft's orchestrate is going to be, but they're going to have one. >> Are you bullish on Asure Stack that's coming out later this year? >> No, not really. >> Okay. >> I think Asure Stack's a step in the right direction, and Microsoft absolutely has to have it, not so much for Google, but for AWS, to compete with AWS. I think it's a good idea, but it's such a constrained system at this point. It's going to take a while to see what it is. You're going to have HPE and Lenovo and Cisco, all have, and Dell, all having the same basic thing. And so you ask yourself, what is the motivation for any of these companies to really knock it out of the park when Microsoft is nailing everybody's feet to the floor on what the options are to offer this? And I understand Microsoft wanting to play it safe and saying, "We want to be able to support this thing, "make sure that, when customers install it, "they don't have problems with it." And Microsoft always wants to foist the support burden onto somebody else anyway, we've all been working for Microsoft our whole lives. >> It was the old Dilbert cartoon, as soon as you open that software, you're all of a sudden Microsoft's pool boy. >> (laughs) I love that, yeah. Asure Stack's going to be pretty constrained, and they keep pushing it further out. So what's the reality of this? And Asure Pack right now is a zombie, everybody's waiting for Asure Stack, but Asure Stack keeps moving out and Asure Stack's going to be small and constrained. This stuff is hard. There's a reason why it's taking everybody a long time to get it out, there's a reason why OpenStack hasn't had the adoption that people first expected, there's going to be a reason why I think Asure Stack does not have the adoption that Microsoft hoped for either. It's going to be an interesting thing to watch over what will play out over the next five or six years. >> Yeah, but for myself, I've seen this story play out a few times on the infrastructure side. I remember the original precursor, the Vblock with Acadia and the go-to-market. VMware, when they did the VSAN stuff, the generation one of Evo really went nowhere, and they had to go, a lot of times it takes 18 to 24 months to sort out some of those basic pricing, packaging, partnering, positioning type things, and even though Asure Stack's been coming for a while, I want to say TP3 is like here, and we're talking about it, and it's going to GA this summer, but it's once we really start getting this customer environment, people start selling it, that we're going to find out what it is and what it isn't. >> It's interesting. You know how important that technology is to Microsoft. It's, in many respects, Satya's baby. And it's so important to them, and at the same time, it's not there, it's not coming, it's going to be constrained. >> So Marc, unfortunately, you and I could talk all day about stuff like this, and we've had many times, at conferences, that we spend a long time. I want to give you just the final word. Wrap up the intro for today on what's happening at Google Next and what's interesting you in the industry. >> Well, I think the big thing here is that Google is showing that they put their foot down and they're not letting up. They're serious about this business, they made this commitment. And we sort of talk and we give lip service, a little bit, to the big three, we got Asure, we got Amazon, and then there's Google. I think every year it's Google does more, and they're proving themselves as a more capable cloud service provider. They're showing the integration with HANA is really interesting, SAP, I should say, not HANA but SAP. They're going after big applications, they've got big customers. Every year that they do this, it's more of an arrival. And I think, in two years time, that idea of the big three is actually going to be big three. It's not going to be two plus one. And that is going to accelerate more of the movement into cloud faster than ever, because the options that Google is offering are different than the others, these are all different clouds with different strengths. Of the three of them, Google, I have to say, has the most, if you will, computer science behind it. It's not that Microsoft doesn't have it, but Google is going to have a lot more capability and machine learning than I think what you're going to see out of Amazon ever. They are just going to take off and run with that, and Microsoft is going to have to figure out how they're going to try to catch up or how they're going to parley what they have in machine learning. It's not that they haven't made an investment in it, but it's not like Google has made investment in it. Google's been making investment in it over the years to support their consumer applications on Google. And now that stuff is coming, like I said before, the stuff is coming into the enterprise. I think there is a shift now, and we sort of wonder, is machine learning going to happen, when it's going to happen? It's going to happen, and it's going to come from Google. >> All right, well, great way to end the opening segment here. Thank you so much, Marc Farley, for joining us. We've got a full day of coverage here from our 4,500 square foot studio in the heart of Silicon Valley. You're watching theCUBE. (bright music)

>> Announcer: Live, from Silicon Valley, it's theCUBE. Covering Google Cloud Next '17. (electronic music) >> Welcome back to theCUBE's live coverage of Google Next, here from our Palo Alto studio. Happy to welcome to the program a first time guest, Udi Nachmany, who is the Head of Public Cloud at Ubuntu, thank you so much for joining us. >> Thanks for having me, pleasure to be here. >> All right, so I think it goes without saying, anybody that understands the landscape. Oh wait, there's Cloud, there's Linux, and especially Ubuntu, you know that's going to be there. Before we get into some of these, just tell us a little bit about your role there, and inside the company. >> Sure, I've been with Canonical for about three years, and I head up our partnership with the public clouds and the public IS providers as a whole. >> Yeah. >> That includes Google, AWS, Azure, and many, many others. >> So can you just clarify one thing for us, though? >> Yes. >> You just said Canonical, I introduced you as Ubuntu. >> Yes. >> Which is it? How should we be referring to these two? Well, we are very well known for our products. >> Yeah. >> We're best well known our corporate brand and we're very happy with both names. I usually introduce myself as Udi from Ubuntu, >> Yeah. >> Slash Canonical, so we're used to that. >> Totally understand. So public cloud, give us your view on the landscape today. We want to talk specifically about some of the Google stuff, but what's happening, and what are customers to you for public cloud, where does your suite play into that environment? >> Sure, Ubuntu is a very popular OS, and I think probably the most popular, the area where we're most dominant is public cloud, So a large majority of workload's on Google Cloud, Azure, the Linux part of Azure, AWS, and many, many other providers is running on Ubuntu. A lot of high-visibility services actual develop on Ubuntu. And we have responsibility in that. We need to make the Ubuntu experience predictable and optimized for that cloud platform and have people trust that experience, and believe in it. So that's our job on a technical level, and then on the second level, our job is to help users access support and tooling on top of that, to help them with the operational reality. Because what we see, unless you've probably heard it before from Canonical, what we see is it's great that the licensing cost, the cost of software has gone down, that's great news for everyone, however what a lot of people don't realize is that the cost of operations has gone up, it's skyrocketed, right? It's great Kubernetes is open source, but how do you actually spin up a cluster, how do you deal with this architecture, what does it mean for your business? So that's where we critically focus on private and public cloud. >> Yeah, it's funny. I did an interview with Brad Anderson a few years ago, and I'm like, "Customers are complaining "about licensing costs," and he starts ranting, he's like, "Licensing costs? Do you know that licensing is 6% of the overall cost of what you have?" So, look, we understand operations are difficult, so why is that such a strong fit? What do you bring, what customers do you serve that they're choosing you in such a large preponderance? >> I think the two things we do well, one is we're very well-embedded in the industry and in the community, and pretty much where people are developing something exciting, they're developing it on Ubuntu and they're talking to us through the process. We get a really good view of their problems and challenges, as well as our own. And the second thing is we have come up with tools and frameworks to allow a lot of that knowledge to be crowdsourced, right? So a good example is our modeling platform Juju, where you can very easily get from not knowing anything about, for example Kubernetes, into a position where you have a Kubernetes architecture running on a public cloud, like Google, or in another public cloud, or in bare metal, right? So because we tackled that, we assume that somebody's done this before you, somebody's figured this out. Take all that knowledge, encapsulate it in what we call a Charm, and take that Charm and build an architecture on Juju, on the canvas, or through the CLI. >> Okay, maybe could you compare, contrast, Google, of course, has some pretty good chops when it come to Kubernetes, they're really trying to make some of these offerings really as a service, so ya know, what does Google do, what do you do? How do they work together? Are you actually partnering there or are you just in the community just working on things? >> Google is in this in two different ways. One is they have their own managed service GKE, and that's great and I think people who are all in on Google, then that's a probably a good way to go. You get the expertise, and you get the things that you need. Our approach, as always, is cloud-neutral and we do believe in a hybrid world. We are members of the CNCF, we're silver sponsors of the CNCF, we're very well-embedded in the Kubernetes community, and we do ship a pure upstream Kubernetes distribution that we also sell support for. So we work very closely with Google, in general, Google Cloud, on making sure Ubuntu runs well on GCE, and on the other side, we work very closely with the Kubernetes community in that ecosystem, to again, make sure that it becomes very easy to work with that solution. >> Every player that you talk to in the ecosystem gives you a different story when it comes to multi-cloud environments. Google's message tends to be pretty open. I mean, obviously, with what they're doing with Kubernetes and being their position of where they are with customer adoption, they understand that a lot of people that are doing cloud aren't doing it on Google's Cloud, so they want to make it, you can live in both worlds, and we can support it. I listened to Amazon today, they're like, well, the future's going to be, we're all going to be there, we're going to hire another 100,000 people throughout all of Amazon in the US in the next 18 months. And Microsoft is trying to wrap their arms around a lot of their applications, IBM and Google are there, doing their thing. You've got visibility into customers in all of these environments due to your place in the stack. What are you seeing today? How is Google's adoption going? Is one question I have for you. And two, most customers, I would think, are running kind of multi-cloud, if you will, is the term, is that what you see? How many clouds are they doing? What are you seeing, kind of shifts in there, and I know I asked you three different questions there, but maybe you can dig into that and unpack it for us. >> Sure. I think, in terms of what they, at least top three clouds are saying, I think it's more important to look at what they're doing. If you think about the AWS and VMWare announcement, if you think about Azure Stack for Microsoft, I think those are clearly admissions that there is an OnPrem story and there's a hybrid story that they feel they need to address. They might believe in a world where everybody's happy on a public cloud, but they also live in reality. >> We're on a public cloud show, we're not allowed to mitt about OnPrem, right? Next you're going to, like, mention OpenStack. >> Absolutely. And then, in terms of Google, I think the interesting thing Google's doing, Google are clearly in that, even in terms of size and growth, I think they're in that top three league. They are, my impression is they are focused on building the services and the applications that will attract the users, right? So they don't have this blanket approach of you must use this, because this is the best cloud ever. They actually work on making very good, specific solutions, like for big data and for other things, and Kubernetes is a good example, that will attract people and get them into that specific part of Google Cloud platform, and hopefully in the future, using more and more. So I think they have a very interesting more product than approach, in that sense. >> Okay, so. >> I think I answered one question. >> Yeah, you touched on, yes customers have public and OnPrem. >> Yeah. >> Kind of hybrid, if you will. What about public cloud, you know? Most customers have multiple public clouds in your data or are they tending to get most of it on a single cloud, and might having a second one for some other piece? >> Yeah, I think right now, we're seeing, is a lot of a lot of people using perhaps a couple of platforms. Especially if they have certain size, I'm putting things like serenity and data prophesy aside, but just in terms of public cloud users, they might, again, use a specific platform for a specific service, they might use bare metal servers on software, for example, and VMs on the cloud. People are, by and large, the savvy users do understand that a mix is needed, which also plays to our strength, of course, with tools like Juju and Landscape, we allow you to really solve that operational problem, while being really substrate-agnostic, right? And you don't have to necessarily worry about getting logged in to one or the other. The main thing is, you can manage that, and you can focus on your app. >> All right. Udi, what's the top couple of things that customers are coming to you at these shows for? Where do they find themselves engaging with you as opposed to just, ya know, they're the developers, they're loving what you're doing? >> Sure. So the one thing I mentioned before is operations, right? I've heard about big data, I've heard about Kubernetes. What are my options? Do I hire a team? Do I get a consultant? Do I spend six months reading about this? And they're looking for that help, and I think Juju as an open-source tool and conjure-up as a developer tool that's also open-source. Really expand their options in that sense, and make it much more efficient for them to do that. And the second thing I'd say is Ubuntu is obviously very popular on public cloud, it's popular in production, so production workloads, business-critical workloads. And more and more organizations are realizing that they need to think long and hard about what that means in terms of getting the right support for it, in terms of things like security. An example, this week there was a kernel vulnerability in Linus Distros, I don't think it has a name yet, and we have something called the Canonical Livepatch service which patches kernel vulnerabilities, you can guess by the name. Now, people who have that through our support package have not felt a thing through this vulnerability. So I think we'll start to see more and more of these, where people have a lot of machines running on different substrates, and they're really worried about their up time and what a professional support organization can help them do to maintain that up time. >> It's real interesting times, being a company involved in open sourced, involved in open cloud. I want you to react, there was a quote that Vint Cerf gave at the Google event, I was listening, they had a great session Marc Andreessen and Vint Cerf. >> Yeah it was overcrowed. >> Go there. There was actually room if you got in, but I was glad I got up there, and Vint Cerf said, "We have to be careful about fast leading to instability." What's your take on that? I hear, when I go to a lot of these shows it's like, wow, I used to go from 18 months to six months to six weeks for my deployments. And public cloud will just update everything automatically, but that speed, ya know? As you were just talking, security is one of the issues, but there's instability, what's your take on that? And how are customers dealing with this increasing pace of change, which is the only constant that we have in our industry? >> Yeah, that's very true. I think, so from conversations with customers I've had recently. I've had a few where they've been sitting around and really deliberating what they need to do with this public cloud thing that they've heard about. Trying to buy time, eventually might lead to panicking. So a big financial institution that I met, maybe a month ago are trying to move all in to AWS, right? Whether that's a good thing or a bad thing for them, whether it's the right thing for them, I don't think that discussion necessarily took place, it may well be the best thing for them. But it's the kind of, they're rushing in to that decision, because they took so much time to try and understand. On the other hand, you see people who are much more savvy, and understand that in terms of the rate of change, like you said, it's a constant, so you need to take ownership of your architecture. You can't be locked in to one box that solves all your problems. You need to make sure you have the operation agility and you're using the right tooling, to help you stay nimble when the next big thing comes along. Or the next little thing, which is sometimes just as scary. And I think, again, that's where we're very well placed and that's where we can have very interesting conversations. >> Really interesting stuff. Actually, I just published a case study with City, talking about, they use AWS, I would say tactically would be the way to put it. They build, they have a number of locations where they have infrastructure. Speed and agility absolutely something they need as an outcome. Public cloud is a tool that they use at certain times, but not... There are things they were concerned about in how they build their architectures. Want to give you the last word. We see Canonical, Ubuntu at a lot of shows, you're involved in a lot of partnerships. What do we expect to see from your cloud group, kind of over the next six months, what shall we be keeping an eye on? >> I think on the private cloud side we've been doing some great work into the toggle vertical, and I think you'll see us expanding into more verticals, like financial services, where we've had some good early successes. >> Can I ask, is that NFV-related? It was the top discussion point that I had at OpenStacks on it last year was around NFV. Is it that specific or? >> Yeah, that's an element of it, yeah, but it's about, how do I make my privat cloud economically viable as AWS or Google or Azure would be? How do I free myself from that and enable myself to move between the substrates without making that trade off. So I think that's on the private cloud side. And I think you're going to see more and more crossover between the world of platforms and switches and servers and the world of devices, web-connected devices. We just finished MWC in Barcelona last week. I think we're in the top 13 or 14 bars in terms of visibility, way ahead of most other OS platforms. And I think that's because our message resonates, right? It's great to have five million devices out there, but how do you actually ship a security fix? How do you ship an update? How do you ship an app, and how do you commercialize that? When you have that size of fleet. So that's a whole different kind of challenge, which, again, with the approach we have to operations, I think we are already there, in terms of offering the solution. So I think you're going to see a lot of more activity on that front. And in the public cloud, I'd say it's really about continuing to work ever closer with the bigger public clouds so that you have optimized experiences on Ubuntu, on that public cloud, on your public cloud of choice. And you're going to see a lot more focus on support offerings, sold through those clouds, which makes a lot of sense, not everyone wants to buy from another supplier. It's much easier to get all your needs met through one centralized bill. So you're going to see that as well. >> Udi Nachmany, really appreciate you coming to our studio here to help us with our coverage of Google Next 2017. We'll be wrapping up day one of two days of live coverage here from the SiliconANGLE Media Studio in Palo Alto. You're watching theCUBE (electronic music)