(Upbeat Music) >> Announcer: Live from Los Angeles, it's theCUBE, covering Open Source Summit, North America, 2017, brought to you by the Linux Foundation and The Red Hat. >> Hey, welcome back everyone, live here in Los Angeles, California for theCUBE's exclusive coverage of Open Source Summit in North America. I'm John Furrrier, with my co-star Stu Miniman, Our next guest is Patrick Chanezan, who is a member of the technical docker, also on the governing board of the Cloud Native Compute Foundation, also known as CNCF, which is the hottest part of the open-source community right now. It's very fast, we're very trendy, a lot of people are on the bandwagon, a lot of contribution going on. Welcome back to theCUBE. Great to see you. >> Hey, thanks, John and Stu, it's very good to be back on theCUBE. >> Docker's been just a great company to follow since the beginning, the birth of Docker to the transformation from Dark Cloud to Docker. It's just a great team. We have a lot of respect for you guys. Congratulations. But the CNCF right now is the hottest thing, there's more platinum sponsors than I think maybe members. It seems to be very hot. Industry loves it, developer is going crazy about it, why is CNCF so hot? What's your perspective on that? >> What we're seeing right now is really the realization of adoption of containers, we talked about it two years ago. It was very early, and people were starting to use Docker and just covering containers. Today they're really putting them into production, and what we see at Docker with our customer base is that they are using it more and more to modernize traditional applications. So we see tremendous use of containers everywhere in enterprises, and the rise of CNCF is tied to that, I think. We're seeing more and more developers joining the bandwagon, more and more systems being built based on containers. And at Docker, we're playing a big role into that. >> Patrick, for a couple years, the chant was Docker, Docker, Docker, and sometimes people say, "Cubernetti's is where the hotness is." Well underneath that, there's containers. And a lot of those containers, Docker's involved there. Maybe you can help us understand the nuance a little bit as the Cubernetti's wave has grown, sure there was the Mezos, Docker Swarm, Cubernetti's war, if you will there, but what does this mean for Docker? What are you seeing from your customers? Give us the update on Docker itself. We'll probably need to get into the Mobi stuff, too, as we get into the interview. >> Sure, definitely. That's a big question, so let's start with the beginning. When enterprises adopt containers, what happens is that usually it starts with the wrappers who are adopting containers with Docker. So they download Docker for their Windows machine, or for their Mac, or on Linux, they start modernizing their applications. What we see is more and more enterprising wrappers, modernizing existing applications by Dockerizing them, and then the next step is that they want to put that into production. For that, you need the whole system. So at Docker, we have two systems. We have Docker C and Docker E, our enterprise version that has role-based controlled sequencing and all that good stuff. There are lots of different components that you need in order to have a production container system, and so Cuberneris, the orchestration engine is one piece of that. At Docker, we have swarm kits. But there are lots of other different components and lots of different layers to that system. So you have the infrastructure layer that you are using to deploy that inside the firewall or in different cloud providers. Many different solutions there. At Docker, we have one that's called infrakit, that we're using in our additions, to deploy it everywhere. Then on top of that, you need some version of Linux. At Docker Con in April, we released a project called Linuxkit, which helps you do that. On top of that, you need a container run-time. Traditionally, it's been Docker. Right now, we re-factored the Docker codebase to extract a core run-time component that's called container G, which we donated to CNCF. Container G is nearing one or better, so it would be one of them pretty soon. Then, on top of that, you need an orchestration engine. Docker E comes with its own orchestration based on swarm, Cuberneris is another orchestration engine that people like. Cuberneris, behind the scenes, is using Docker, and right now we are working very closely with theCUBE rneris community to implement CRI container G. So CRI is the container run-time interface in Cuberneris that lets you plug in different engines to plug container G in the place of Docker in there. >> Stu: There's a lot of pieces in here. We had too many interviews yesterday talking about the Open Container Initiative, or OCI, which really made sure we've got the 1.0 version of that done. What container format, seems like we're in agreement. We're not fighting over that kind of piece anymore. From the Cubernetti's community, I heard loud and clear, they're like, we've got container D. We've kind of got what we want. We're happy it's open-sourced. We're going. We were at Docker Con when you annouced Mobi, which is kind of open-source, and it felt like we were still trying to figure out all those pieces. Give us the update as to Mobi, you're talking at the open source show, you talk a little bit about CE and EE being the productized versions, but part of it is what we used to think of as Docker is now Mobi, and the company Docker versus the project. You kind of teased those apart a little bit, right? >> Yes. Exactly. And actually, that's what I came here at the Open Summit to talk about, to give people an update on the Mobi project. So what we announced back in April was the launch of the Mobi project, which is the end of a two year re-factoring of the Docker codebase into different components. So all these components on the stack that I told you about, we just tease them out from the Docker codebase so that it's a modular set of components that you can assemble together. Mobi is three things. It's an open source project where people can collaborate in container-based systems. It's also a tool that we're using to assemble our components into Mobi Corp, which is the upstream of Docker products. Then it's also a set of lots of components, like container G, Linux, Infrakit, Notary, and all the projects I talked about. One other thing we've started doing since April as well is we started proposing to donate some of these container projects to CNCF. So container G is already part of CNCF now. Recently, this summer, we proposed Infrakit, and they think it's a little bit too early for donation, because they want to see other, different projects in there. Right now we're in the process of donating and proposing Notary, so there's an active discussion in there, and I hope that the vote will happen probably next week or something like that. So Notary is the component that we're using for Docker, and we think that this could be used in lots of different Cloud Native systems, so it really has its place in the CNCF. >> So identity component for the container management, or what specifically is that going to address? >> So Notary is the piece that we're using in Docker Con Contrast to make sure that you can trust the images that you've built. A signed signature should be able to revoke all the signatures, all the kind of features that our customers love in Docker E. >> John: It's kind of like Stu and me on Twitter, he's verified, I'm not. But this is important, because now, this is a stamp of approval, if you will, that the community can look to. >> Yeah, definitely. So it's something that we implement in Docker, and now people building other containment systems who will be able to use it. And so Mobi saw a lot of traction for its different projects, some of them are going to CNCF, some of them are growing by themselves. On the Docker side, we made some progress prioritizing all that with Docker C and Docker E. We had a 1706 launch of Docker E recently, with lots of new role-based axis control, controls for enterprises, who are adopting it essentially to modernize their traditional apps. >> Take us through a kind of personal question. You were just at a board meeting with the CNCF. Did everyone show up or are people calling in? >> I think Alexi Richardson was the only one, maybe two people on the phone. >> John: Was Sam Redjay there? >> Sam was not there either, but Epona was standing for him. So the room was full, and to me it's really an impressive achievement, two years after we helped start the CNCF. The first meetings were 10, 15 people at Google deciding to create this foundation, and today, maybe we're twenty or thirty people around the table. An\d everybody-- >> Even before that Google meeting, we were covering theCUBE Con Cubernettis' movement early on from your event. So I think, out of Docker Con and some of the Linux Foundation events, the early momentum, we were there, Stu. Then it became the CNCF, and they decided, hey, let's get the Cloud Native Foundation. So it's interesting to me, seeing the growth from the beginning. And it's unique to have that opportunity to be in the front lines of an organically developing group. It wasn't really build the table and come, this was a realization. >> It was a realization and also a concerted effort to build something together to show customers where the containment systems were going in terms of architecture-- >> What were the factors beside, I mean Docker was big driver. Notably, you should get the credit for pioneering the space. But what were the drivers for this coalescing, this call to arms, if you will, or this organic formation of CNCF. What were the key drivers in your mind. Obviously, containers is one. What are the other ones? >> Yeah, to me, containers is a big one, because when you are starting to design your system with containers in mind, you need to change lots of things, how you're building them and things like that. And how you are architecting things together. There were lots of questions about how you do the balancing in that kind of system, how do you do monitoring, how do you do tracing. The CNCF was assembled so that all these components have a place where we can show our inter-repairability between them. So Docker is part of that, Mezos is part of that, as well as Cuberneris. There's a big inter-repairability work that's happening in there. We had a report in the board meeting today about the new CI Initiative that tests different CNCF projects together. >> John: What CI? >> Sorry, continuous integration. >> John: Got it, yeah. >> So there's the continuous integration-- >> John: Not conversion infrastructure. >> Oh, you're right, yeah. >> We always get acronym-ed up. But Chris Anazik was talking yesterday about the graduation path, still waiting to see something graduate from the process. What's going to graduate first? Any bets, what's the betting, what betting is going on? Do you guys actually make bets? Is there a fantasy drafting going on? >> I don't think that really matters, what matters is really adoption of the components. >> Okay, so what's happening on the graduation scale? What's coming out of the woodworks? What's next? What's going to graduate first? >> So one thing I'm curious about is whether Container G will graduate, because it's kind of mature now, it's reaching 1-0 with the CRI and soon integration in Docker, it may be a good candidate for graduation. For the others, I don't know which ones would be first into the graduation process. >> Well, we know it's a high bar, for sure. >> Patrick, the stuff that's getting mature. What about some of the roadmap there? From Docker and CNCF, something like serverless containers, first generation, are going to be important. We had too many interviews this week talking about, today, many of the containers we'll see in the future where serverless and open Faz and things like that go. So how does that all fit in? Can you give us a Docker and a CNCF view on that? >> Let's talk about the CNCF view first. CNCF is working on lots of different areas where there needs to be more definition about what Cloud Native means for storage, for example, with the CSI Initiative, container storage interface, CNI, container networking interface, and then there's the working group for CI, which is about integrating all these projects together, but the working group I'm most interested in is the serverless one. So we have a Docker rep at the serverless working group, and there we're trying to define what a portable, serverless stack looks like. And at Docker, we're naturally interested in this -- >> Of course, Serverless is a beautiful thing. >> Most of these projects are running on top of Docker, so open Faz for people-- >> I got to ask you, Patrick, because we love serverless, I have a love/hate relationship with the word serverless because technically it's a beautiful thing, but there's servers involved. I'm an old-school, so I kind of look at it differently. The younger generation, they want infrastructure as code. This is a clear obvious thing. It was once a dream, but now it's become a reality. What's your position on that? Where is it on the progress bar? How close are we to serverless? >> I'd say there's an initial adoption of serverless on one of the few stacks that exist out there today. So you have the hosted services, the Faz services, from Amazon, Microsoft, and Google, where I'm more interested, and I think customers are kind of looking for that, is a portable way of doing that. For example, in studying that on top of Docker platforms, so that's what projects like Open Faz is doing. Right now, I think we're really in the stage of discussions with CNCF of what a portable service layer would look like so that you could focus on your code, but be able to deploy on Prim, on top of Docker, or in different cloud providers. So that portability aspect to me is very important there. And I think it's important for customers as well. To me, also, I'm an old timer as well, I used to pitch a platform as a service at the beginning of it, Google App Engine, many years ago. To me, it's kind of a feeling of deja vu. We're kind of re-inventing that, but with containers and in a much more portable way. >> The beautiful thing about being an old-timer is we get to look back and, not so much to the young kids, get off my lawn, we had to walk to school with bare feet in the snow, build our own libraries. I was just talking to Eilene, she's like, "Oh, my low-level class was C and my high-level class was Python." I'm like, "Our low-level class was machine code "and high-level wasn't even C yet." >> Yesterday, at the party, I was discussing with one of the IBM engineers, who's working on Linux and containers on mainframe, and we were talking about GCL, and that's the type of feeling that we got. Like we're getting higher up in the stack, and I think for modern developers, it really helped them-- >> It's a beautiful thing right now. Just think about the young guns that are coming up. This is a beautiful library of options now. 90% of the code is leverage-able. That's like unbelievable. So it really allows the creativity of the developer to be a lot more about structural engineering code-base rather than just being very creative on the 10-20% of real intellectual property that they can bring to the table. >> I would add something, it's really about creating value, as opposed to building infrastructure. When we're getting up the stack, and serverless is an example of that, it's really about creating value for enterprises, and that's what these wrappers are about. >> When you start dreaming in code, you know you're doing good. Patrick, thanks so much for coming on theCUBE, and congratulations on all the success with CNCF, and certainty Docker. You guys continue to impress and do a great job. I know there's some changes over there we're looking for, some of the cool stuff graduating out of CNCF, more Docker container goodness from you guys. Thanks for coming on theCUBE. We appreciate it. I'm John Furrier, we're live in Los Angeles, California, for the Open Source Summit North America coverage with theCUBE. I'm John Furrier, Stu Miniman back with more after this short break.

>> Announcer: Live from Austin, Texas, It's theCUBE, covering DockerCon 2017. Brought to you by Docker and support from its ecosystem partners. >> Welcome back to theCUBE here in Austin, Texas at DockerCon 2017. I'm Stu Miniman with my cohost for the two days of live broadcast, Jim Kobielus. Happy to welcome back to the program, John Gossman, who is the lead architect with Microsoft Azure. Also part of the keynote this morning. John, had the pleasure of interviewing you two years ago. We went though the obligatory wait, Microsoft Open Source, Linux, and Windows and everything living together. It's like cats and dogs. But thanks so much for joining us again. >> Yeah well as I was saying, that's 14 years in cloud years. So it's been a lot of change in that time, but thanks for having me again. >> Yeah. Absolutely. You said it was three years that you've been working Microsoft and Docker together. 21 years in it, dog or cloud years, if you will. I think Docker is more whales and turtles, as opposed to the dogs. But enough about the cartoons and the animals. Why don't you give our audience just a synopsis of kind of the key messages you were trying to get across in the keynote this morning. >> Okay well the very simple message is that what we enabled this new technology, Hyper-V isolation for Linux containers, is the ability to run Linux containers just seamlessly on Windows using the normal Docker experience. It's just Docker run, BusyBox or Docker run, MySQL, or whatever it is, and it just works. And of course if you know a little more technical detail about containers, you realize that one of the reasons that the containers are the way there are is that all the containers on a box normally share a kernel. And so you can run a Canonical, Ubuntu on user space, on a Red Hat kernel or vice versa. But Windows and Linux kernels are too different. So if you want to run Windows container, it's not going to run easily on Linux and vice versa. And you can still get this effect, if you want it, by also using a virtual machine. But then you've got the management overhead of managing the virtual machine, managing the containers, all the complexity that that involves. You have to get a VHD or AMI or something like that, as well a container image and you lose a lot of that sort of experience. >> John, first of all, I have to say congratulations to Microsoft. When the announcement was made that Windows containers were going to be developed, I have to say that I and most of my peers were a little bit skeptical as to how fast that would work; the development cycle. Probably because we have lots of experience and it's always okay, we understand how many man years this usually takes, but you guys hit and were delivering, got through the Betas, so can you speak to us about where we are with Windows containers? And one of the things people want to kind of understand is, compared to like Linux containers, how do you expect the adoption of that now that it's generally available to roll out? Do I have to wait for the next server refresh, OS refresh, how do you expect your customers to adopt and embrace? >> Well we were able to get this to work so quickly because if you remember, Docker didn't actually invent containers. They took a bunch of kernel primitives that were in Linux and put a really great user experience on it. And I'm not taking anything away from Docker by doing that, because oftentimes in the technology industry, it's easy to make something that was complicated, powerful, but not easy to use. And Windows already had a lot of those kernel primitives, same sort of similar kind of kernel primitives built-in. They had to take out Java javax, I think when Windows 2000. And so it was kind of the same experience. We took the Docker engine, so we got the API, we were using the open source project, so we have complete compatibility. And then we just had to write a basically a new back-end, and that's why it was able to come up rather quickly. And now we're in a mode you know, Windows server updates things more incrementally, than we did in the past. So this will just keep on improving as time goes on. >> Okay, one of the other big announcements in the keynote this morning was LinuxKit. And it was open source project, we actually saw Solomon move it to open source during the keynote, when they laid out the ecosystems for it like IBM, HPE, INTEL and Microsoft. So what does that mean for Microsoft? You are now a provider of Linux? How are we supposed to look at this? >> Yeah. So we're working with all the Linux vendors. So if you saw our blog about the work we did today. We also have announcements from SUSE and Red Hat and Canonical, and the usual people. And one of the things I said in this box, I said look there's the new model is that you could choose both the Linux container that you want and the kernel that you want to run it on. And we're open to all sorts of things. But we have been working with Docker for a long time. On making sure that there was a great experience for running Docker for Linux on Windows. This thing called Docker for Windows. Which they developed. And we have been helping out. And that's basically an earlier generation of this same Linux technology. So it's just the next step on that journey. >> Microsoft's pretty well recognized to have a robust solution for a hybrid cloud. Cause of course you go your Azure stack, that you're putting on premises. There's Azure itself, it's really the cloud first methodology that you've been rolling through and you offer as a service. Containers really anywhere in your environment, baked in anywhere? How should we be thinking about this going forward? >> Yeah absolutely. I mean one of the points of containers in general, one of the attractive parts of containers is that they run everywhere. Including from your laptop, to the various clouds to bare metal, to virtualized environments. And so we have both things. We want Windows containers, where we're the vendor of the container. We want those to work everywhere. And we also, as the vendors of Azure and Azure Stack, and just server system center, and other older enterprise technologies. We want containers to work on all those things. So both directions. I mean, that's kind of the world we're in now, where everything works everywhere. >> Can you square you container strategy as reflected in your partnership with Docker, With your serverless computer strategy for Azure Functions? I'm trying to get a sense for Microsoft's overall approach to running containers as it relates to the Azure strategy. >> In some ways, you can think of this as a serverless functions mode as a step even further. You just deploy a hardware machine and install everything on it. Next thing, you'd have a virtual machine and you install everything. And then you put your code and all its affinities to the container. And with serverless with Azure Functions, it's like, well why do any of that? Just write a function. Now at the same time, we think there's lots of reasons. Under the covers, all of these past systems, going all the way back, that's how Docker started. Run a container underneath the covers. in the same place, it's not literally a Docker container, but the same place down in functions has that sort of a capability. And we're certainly thinking about how Docker can handle for work in that serverless model in the future. >> See one of my core focus areas for Wikibon as an analyst, is looking at developers going more deeply into deep learning and machine learning. To what extent is Microsoft already taking its core tools in that area and containerizing them and enabling access to that functionality through serverless APIs and functions and so forth in Azure? On the serverless stuff, I'm not on the serverless team. I'm not really qualified to explain everything on their end. I do know that the CNT team has a Docker container that they put the bits in. There's the Azure Machine Learning team who's been working a lot of these sort of technologies. I'm just not the right guy to answer that question. >> As you talk to your customers, where does this fit in to the whole discussion? Do containers just happen in the background? Is it helping them with some of their application modernization? Does it help Microsoft change the way we architect things? What's kind of the practitioner, your ultimate end user viewpoint on this? Well cloud adoption is at all points on the curve simultaneously. Even the inside of individual companies. So everybody's in it, in a kind of different place. The two models that I think people have really concentrated on, is on one end, the path at least is infrastructure where you just bring your existing applications and another one would be PADS, where you rewrite the application for a more modern architecture, more cloud centric architecture. And containers fit kind of squarely in the middle of that in some respects. Because in many ways and primarily, I see Docker containers as a better form of infrastructure. It is an easier, more portable way to get all your dependency together and run them everywhere. So a lot of lift-and-shift works is in there, but once you're in containers, it is also easier to break the components apart and put them back together into a more microservice oriented cloud-native model. >> I think that's a great point because we've been having this discussion about okay, there's applications that I'm rewriting, but then I've got this huge amount of applications that I need some way to have the bridge to the future, if you will. Because I don't know, there's one analyst firm that calls it bimodal, but to customers we talked to in general, we don't segment everything we do. I have application type infrastructure and I need to be able to live across multiple environments. Wrapping versus refactoring. >> And they do both. But I always prefer to, you know some people come in and they talk about legacy and they're developers. I'm a developer, right? Developers we always want to rewrite everything. And there's a time and place to doing that. But the legacy applications are required for those applications to work. And if you don't need to refactor that thing, if you can get it into a container or virtual machine or however, and get it into that more environment, and then work around it, re-architect it, it's a whole different set of approaches. It's a good conversation to have with a customer to understand. I've seen people go both too slow, and I see people refactor their whole thing and then try to figure out how to get it to work again. >> So Microsoft has a gigantic user base, What kind of things are you doing to help educate and help the people that had certification or jobs were running exchange to move towards this new kind of world and cloud in general. And containers specifically maybe. >> Well we have a ton of stuff. I'm not familiar with the certification programs myself, but we certainly have our Developer Evangelism team, out going out training people. We've been trying to improve our documentation. And we have a bunch of guidance on cloud migration and things like that. There is a real challenge and it's the same problem for our customers and anybody looking at cloud. Is to re-educate people who have been working in some of their previous moment. Which is another reason again, where the lift and shift stuff is, you can make it more like it is on Premise, or more like it is on your laptop. It makes that journey a little easier. But we're indefinitely in one of those points where the industry is changing so fast, I personally have to spend a lot of time, What's going on? What happened this day? What's new today coming to the conference, I learn new things. >> You bring up a huge challenge that we see. I kind of like Docker has their two delivery models. They've got the Community Edition, CE, and the Enterprise Edition, EE. An EE feels more like traditional software. It's packaged, it's on the regular release cycle. CE is, Solomon talked this morning about the edge pieces. Can I keep up with every six months, or can I have stuff flying at me? People inside of Docker can't keep up with the pace of change that much. What do you see, I mean, I think back to the major Windows operating system releases that we used to, like the Intel tick-tock on releases. It's the pace of change is tough for everyone, how are you helping, you know with you product development and customers, you know, take advantage of things and try to keep up with this rapidly changing ecosystem? >> This is a constant challenge with physically software now. We can't afford to only ever ship things every three years. And at the same time there's stability. So with the major products like Windows, we have these stable branches, where things are pretty much the same going along. And then there's an inactive branch Where things are coming down and the changes and the updates are coming. I'd say the one biggest difference I'd say, but you know I've been in this industry for a long time. So say between the '90s and now, is that we have so much of it is actually off servers. Where when something crashes, we get a crash dump and we can debug the thing and so going out in the field we have much more capability in finding what's going on in the customer base than we did 20 years ago. But other than that, it's just a really hard challenge to both satisfy people that can't have anything to change, and everything changing. >> John you've been watching this for a number of years, what do we still have left to do? We come back to DockerCon next year, you know, we'll have more people, it'll be a bigger event, but you know, what's the progression, what kind of things are you looking forward to the ecosystem and yourself and Docker, knocking down and moving customers forward with? >> The first year was kind of like, what is this thing? Second year was now, the individual Docker container is there now how do you orchestrate them and next step is how do we network these things. And there's an initiative now to standardize on storage, for storage systems and docker containers. Monitoring. There's a lot of things that are still to do. We have a long ways to go. On the other side, I think this other track, which we talked about today, which is that virtualization and containers are going to blur and mend, and I don't think that seven years from now we're going to be talking about containers or virtual machines, we're just going to be saying it's some unit of compute and then there's so much in knobs and tweaks that you want it a little more isolated, you want it a little less isolated, you trade off some performance for something else. >> Business capability, in other words the enterprise architecture framework of business capabilities, will be paramount in terms of composing applications or microservices. From what I understand you saying. >> Yeah, I think where we're really going to get to is a model where people we get past this basics of storage of networking and start working up the next level So things like Helm or DCS Universe, or Storm Stacks, where you can describe more of an application, it just keeps moving up. And so I think in seven years, we won't be talking so much about this, it'll some other disruption, right? But there won't be talking about this virtualization layer as much as building apps again. >> On a visual composition of microservices, what is Microsoft doing, you say that you long ago entered Microsoft during the Vizio acquisition, what's Microsoft doing to enable more visual composition across these functions, across orchestrated team-like environments going forward? >> I think there is some work going on. It's not my area again, on visual composition, despite the fact that I came from Vizio. I kind of got away from that space >> Well I'm betraying my age. I remember that period. >> All right. Well John, always a pleasure catching up with you and thank you so much for joining us for this segment. Look forward to watching Microsoft going forward. >> Thanks. Thank you for having me. We'll be back with lots more coverage here from DockerCon 2017. You're watching theCUBE.

>> Announcer: Live from Austin, Texas. It's theCUBE, covering DockerCon 2017. Brought to you by Docker, and support from its ecosystem partners. (bright electronic music) >> Welcome back. I'm Stu Miniman, joined by Jim Kobielus for two days of theCUBE's live coverage, DockerCon 2017, here in Austin, Texas. We are the worldwide leader in live enterprise tech coverage, happy to welcome to the program, a first-time guest on theCUBE, happens to also be a local here in the Austin area, so Dustin Kirkland, the Ubuntu Product and Strategy, with Canonical, thanks so much for joining us. >> Thanks, Stu. >> All right, so Dustin, give us a good thumbnail, what's your role, and how excited are you to be at another local show. All the open source shows seem to be here in Austin. I mean, we love doing it. >> I'm super glad. >> Dustin: We love sharing Austin. Glad for people to come and visit. Just make sure you go home at the end of it. (chuckles) >> Jim: Keep Austin weird and keep it open. >> That's right, that's right. Yeah, it's great to be local, it's great to have the Docker community back in Austin. It was, a lot of these people were here for OpenStack. We'll be back for CubeCon later this year. OSCON in between. >> All right, and tell us a little bit about your role. >> Yes, so I lead Product and Strategy at Ubuntu. We make an operating system that runs in the cloud, on public clouds, private clouds, bare-metal, physical servers, down to desktops and embedded devices. >> Okay, so, I have a serious question for you. Every time we see the surveys of OpenStack, the surveys in the public cloud, Canonical's always there. I mean, everybody's using your stuff. >> Dustin: Good! >> But where are people paying money for it? What's kind of from the business standpoint, maybe you can give us the quick update on that. >> People pay money when it's mission-critical. When Ubuntu and OpenStack and soon, Kubernetes, certainly more and more, Docker, when that's part of the mission-critical infrastructure, they pay for that. They pay the support and the services, they pay for consulting, for design, for leads, for architecture. They pay for access to the product roadmap, and so we do have some really brand-name customers who pay us good money for that. >> Okay, it's our third year doing theCUBE at this show, and every year, it seems we come in with one of the same questions, which is like, all right, is this ready for production, is anybody using it? We backed you to knock down the doors of everybody here, and give us more customers to talk to, so, what do you see, what's your answer to that? >> Yeah, I mean, it strikes me as really odd when people are still asking, "Are containers ready "for production?" Containers have been part of our DNA in Ubuntu for almost 10 years now. Shipping an OS that boots into a container that's able to run LXD containers, Docker containers, and run those at tremendous scale. We'd run containers underneath as the control plane of every OpenStack cloud we've ever deployed, every Kubernetes cloud we've ever deployed, every Hadoop cloud we've ever deployed. So containers are part of our production system. >> So do you guys have a marketing term? You guys are the hipster Linux container company. You were doing it before it was cool. >> I guess so, I mean it's, I guess, it's like asking, and I wonder, you think cellphones are mainstream yet? It's like, yeah, it is now, but you're probably one of the first in your family to have a cellphone, right? It's, we're kind of at that juncture, where we've been doing for a long time, and it's good to see others finally taking advantage as well. >> In the keynote this morning, we talked, we saw a lot about the maturation of Docker. They really started out working with the developer, they've really grown, working with the business, working with the enterprise. Talk to us about your customers as it fits into the container space in general, Docker, specifically. What are you guys seeing? >> As an operating system that delivers the latest and greatest open source software across multiple architectures, public and private clouds, Docker fits into that very well, in fact. It sits alongside LXD at giving that machine container, replace your VM's experience, but also the new way of writing applications. Solomon talked about applications, and if you're going to develop an application, Docker is a great application development platform. So when applications are being developed, (mumbles) or microservices, from scratch, Docker is a fantastic approach, and we see more developers using Ubuntu desktops and Ubuntu in the cloud, as that development platform. As that matures, then we get into a situation where it becomes mission-critical, and then we have really interesting commercial discussions around how do we really help that platform succeed? >> All right, we just Microsoft on the program. >> Dustin: John, right? >> Yeah, John was on, talks about, (mumbles) Microsoft is talking about being open, Microsoft's talking about choice. They actually talked, John mentioned, your company and your operating system. When we get to cloud solutions, Canonical's supported everywhere. How do you guys differentiate? How do you make sure that they're choosing your product as opposed to something else? >> So Ubuntu itself, always latest and greatest. It's fresh, you're never more than six months away from the next latest and greatest everything across the board. You're never more than two years away from an LTS, a long-term support release. That's really the key differentiator for Ubuntu is its freshment, its velocity, and that maps very well to the container world, where things are revving very, very quickly. >> All right, security was a big focus this morning also. What's your viewpoint as to where security lives, how that works with all of your environment, and what you guys do for that-- >> I've been a security nerd for most of my career. In fact, it's one of those jobs you leave but you always kind of get sucked back into because you care about it, honestly. Ubuntu as a platform, security, we take very seriously. Encryption anywhere, we can use encryption, updates, latest and greatest updates, kernel patches, Livepatch for the kernel. (coughs) Livepatch for the kernel is particularly interesting from a security perspective because it enables us to address security vulnerabilities without rebooting systems, and that's really important in a containerized environment, where you're not just running one or two machines, you're running potentially thousands of machines or containers or applications, and being able to update one single kernel with a Livepatch, without rebooting any of them, that's what security people are excited about when we talk Ubuntu kernel and security. >> (mumbles) Ubuntu being deployed into Internet of things, or to what extent is your roadmap going in that direction 'cause we're seeing a lot of new development going into the Internet of things, to deploy artificial intelligence and deep learning algorithms and data, down to the edge, and so-- >> Yeah, it's beautiful, I mean, that edge-to-cloud story is something that we've got a very clear view on. We produce an OS, an Ubuntu OS called Ubuntu Core, is a read-only operating system custom-tailored for IoT devices. That's the OS, it's the same Ubuntu but rolled and managed and updated in a different way. Applications fit onto that device in the form of snaps, or Docker containers, frankly. They're a little bit different in the way that they're implemented, but we have a new packaging system that's well-adapted, well-tuned-- >> A snap is more, something different from a container, how? >> It is, it's a form of a container. It's less than a container, but it uses some of the same container primitives. It's, frankly, it's an archive and a set of security profiles that wrap that tarball, essentially, and the way it's executed in a very secure manner, so it's wrapped with AppArmor profiles, it only has access to certain parts of the system, it contains its own dependencies, but they're contained in such a way that they're protected from the rest of the system. A lot of that sounds like Docker, and it is similar to Docker, but Docker provides a little bit more of that machine experience. Docker will include a file system, it'll draw an IP address sometimes, or defroute traffic, whereas a snap actually runs directly on the underlying OS. It's more tightly linked to that OS. In terms of linking back to the machine learning, that happens in the cloud. Inevitably, IoT drives more cloud adoption because those little IoT devices, they've got so little processing power and storage by design, that information needs to go somewhere, and it goes to the cloud, where something like a TensorFlow, running in a Docker Swarm, or a Kubernetes, or some combination of those two, are really crunching the interesting problems. >> First, Google recently made a big to-do about federating more of the machine learning algorithms all the way to the edge device, so, the world is going in that direction but I hear you. That's, they're very constrained-- >> Dustin: We hear a lot about the edge. >> To run the algorithms that pull power on the edge device, but it's coming. >> Yeah, for sure. >> Great. >> Stu: All right, so Dustin, I heard Kubernetes and Swarm, you guys, agnostic to that, support all of it. >> Dustin: We are. >> What do you guys code on, what do you hear from customers? >> Yeah, so we're very proud of our position here. I'm here at DockerCon, supporting Docker. Docker Inc. is a close commercial partner of Canonical. We, Canonical is authorized to resell Docker Enterprise Edition, Docker services, Docker support. We've got mutual customers who buy that directly from Canonical, and we support Docker and Swarm and Datacenter on top of Ubuntu, and that's a great story that brings us from the developers who are running Docker on Ubuntu on their Macs and Windows machines. John, I'm sure, was talking about Windows and Docker. But when they put that into production, we've got the wherewithal to support that. We offer Kubernetes as another platform. I've spoken with some really bright, just last night, with a really bright cloud architect from a major Internet service provider, and their role is they set up Docker Swarms for their internal customers, and Kubernetes Clusters for their internal customers, and Cloud Foundries, and OpenStacks, all inside of this big telco Internet cable giant, and it makes sense, and they can do all of that, and do all of that on top of Ubuntu, because it's the platform that can offer whatever they need for their customers. >> All right, one of the other announcements in the keynote this morning was LinuxKit, so, I got a little bit of a preview before the show, and I don't feel that it was Docker trying to punch at the providers of Linux, and it didn't seem to come off that way in the keynote, but for those that hear at a glance, oh, wait, LinuxKit developed with a bunch of, you know, seems like mostly hardware companies plus Microsoft and Docker. What do you guys see, how do you look at that? >> It's genuinely fun for an open source engineer to put together a Linux distribution. It's like the thing you want to do, and customize it and tailor it, and the beauty of open source is you can absolutely do that, and so, what I saw from LinuxKit, I too got a little preview, it seems it comes out of the part of Docker that also works on unikernels, Alpine, to an extent, and they've built a container-optimized, or Docker-optimized OS from Docker, so if you want Docker all the way down, it sounds like LinuxKit is a solution that they're working on, still working on. I'll say that Ubuntu, containers are in our DNA, we built a kernel and we built a security system around containers for quite some time, and we continue to optimize that, and we work directly with Microsoft, Google, Amazon to ensure that the Ubuntu that's running in those public clouds is ready to run Docker and other container systems out of the box, and very consistently, in a way that looks exactly like the Ubuntu that's running as the bash shell on the Windows desktop, as the Ubuntu desktop itself, as the server that you might run in any one of the public clouds. It's a very consistent experience. We do tune that and tailor that, but it's in ways that ensures portability. >> All right, so Dustin, you talked about kind of the history and how long people have been using it. Production should not be a question. It's just where, what, how you're doing this. What things do you still see us needing to mature, or what excites you about this going forward? >> Yeah. The management, honestly, and that comes back to security. Ensuring that running those containers at scale, you're doing that in a secure manner. Minimal is part of it. We hear that quite a bit, that, "I want a minimal image, I want a minimal host." That is an important part of it. It's, we have to be a little bit careful that we don't go so minimal that we end up creating a bunch of snowflakes, special unicorns where every container image is a little bit different, every host is a little bit different, because it's more minimal than the previous one. That actually creates more security problems, so I think thinking that problem through is, it's one of the most important problems that I think through, or I'm working on right now, and I think others are interested in working on as well. >> All right, Dustin, you've been way too pleasant through all of this interview, so before we end up, as an Austin local here, I have to ask you the divisive question. Your favorite barbecue place. (Dustin groans) >> You know-- >> Jim: Your favorite bar band, too. Keep going. >> Okay, yeah, I mean, you can't go wrong with the award-wining Franklin's barbecue or the gas station Rudy's, we love those. My favorite's a little hole in the wall out close to where I live. It's a trailer that's been serving barbecue out of that trailer since 1997. It's called Bee Caves barbecue. Those guys, they put together some fantastic barbecue five days a week. They sell it until they're out, and then they close up the shop and they go fishing, and it's, you got to get there early, and when they're done, they're done, so I-- >> Yeah, is there a connection between people that make barbecue and people that put together Linux distributions? It sounds like a lot of the same thing. >> Maybe so, maybe so, yeah. I've got a smoker out back. I like to smoke meat as much as I can. >> Absolutely, all right, well, Dustin, really appreciate you joining us. Welcome to the >> Stu, thank you, Jim. >> Stu: CUBE alumni list now, and we'll be back with more coverage here from DockerCon 2017. You're watching theCUBE. (bright electronic music) >> I remember--

>> Narrator: Live from Austin, Texas, it's The Cube covering DockerCon 2017 brought to you by Docker and support from its ecosystem partners. (upbeat tech music) >> Hi, I'm Stu Miniman and this is SiliconANGLE Media's The Cube. We're the worldwide leader in enterprise tech coverage. Happy to be coming to you from DockerCon 2017 here in the Austin Convention Center of course in Austin, Texas. My host for the next few days will be Jim Kobielus, Jim thank you so much for joining us. >> It's great to join the team. >> Alright, so we'll get to you in a second, Jim, but first of all, it is the fourth year of the DockerCon show Docker The Company, just celebrated its fourth year of existence, CEO Ben Golub started off the keynote Founder, CTO, Chief Product Guy, Solomon Heights, introduced a bunch of opensource initiatives, did a bunch of demos, the first DockerCon event back in 2014, I actually had the pleasure of attending, was my favorite show of that year, I got to hear some of these HyperScale guys talk about how they were using containers, how Google spins up and spins down two billion containers in a week and there were about 400 people there and Docker, the company, was 42 people. Fast forward to where we are today in 2017, Docker, the company, I believe is 320 people, there is over 5,500 people here, you can see 'em all streaming in behind me here as the Keynote just let out, so, we've got two full days here of coverage. This morning, we're going to go through a little bit of the news, talk about who we're going to cover, but first of all, I want to introduce you to Jim Kobielus, so John Furrier sends his regards to the community, he's real sorry he couldn't make it out, just had some things came up at the last minute, so he couldn't come, but stepping in for him with lots of knowledge and experience is Jim, so Jim, please, for our audience that hasn't gotten chance to see, you did some intro videos with our crew out in our 4,500 square foot Palo Alto studio at the beginning of the month, but why don't you tell 'em what brought you to the SiliconANGLE Media team, your background, and what you're going to be doing. >> Great, yeah, thanks Stu. Yeah, I've joined just recently in the last few weeks, I am Wikibon's lead analyst for application development as well as data science and deep learning. I create data science and the development of artificial intelligence as a huge and really one of the predominant developer themes now in the business world and really much of that that's going on in business in terms of development of the AI applications is in the form of microservices in containerized format for deployment out to multiclouds and increasingly serverless computing environments. So, I am totally pumped and excited to be at DockerCon and there were some great announcements this morning, I was very impressed that this community is making great progress, both on the sheer complexity and sophistication of the ecosystem, but on just the amount of support for Docker technology, for Kubernetes and so forth for the full range of technologies that enable containerized application development. Hot stuff. >> Yeah, Jim, and you talked about things like community and ecosystem and that was definitely the theme here day one. Docker did some changing in their packaging since we were at the show last year. They now have Docker CE which is the community edition. Focus on the developers and today was developer day. I'm pretty sure everything that was announced today is opensourced, it's in there, it's in the free version. I expect tomorrow we'll probably hear more about EE, it's the Enterprise Edition >> Enterprise, yes. >> A question I know we all have is how is the monetization of what Docker's doing progressing, the press and analyst dinner last night, I heard from a Docker employee and said look, we all understand, we are the early days of the monetization of Docker, but Solomon, this morning, said really, the success of Docker the company is tied directly to the ecosystem. We've got Microsoft coming on today, we've got Sysco, Oracle, lots of partners coming on this week talk about what Docker's doing, what's happened in opensource is going to help a broad ecosystem and all, not just the developers, but enterprises and the companies, so, what are you looking at this week, what are you hoping to come out of, what grabbed you from the Keynotes this morning? >> Well, grabbing from the Keynotes this morning is the maturation of the containerized Docker ecosystem in the form of greater portability, in terms of the LinuxKit announcement, we'll get to that later, as well as great customization capabilities to the Moby project. This is just milestones in the development and maturation of a truly robust ecosystem of innovation, really, what Docker's all about now that it's a real platforms company, is helping its partners to be raving successes in this rapidly expanding marketplace, so, that's what I see, the chief themes so far of this today. >> Yeah and it's interesting, one of the things we've always looked at Docker is like what does the opensource community do, what does the company do, what's the co-opetition play? Two years ago at the show in San Francisco, there was taking the container run time and really making sure that's opensource. You had the CoreOS guys and the Docker guys hugging. I got a picture of Ben Golub and Alex Polvi standing together and it was like oh, okay, that little cold war was over. LinuxKit is something we're going to look at, they lined up some really good partners. We got Intel, Microsoft, HPE, and IBM, but, we're going to talk to Red Hat and Canonical and see what they think about this because from the Linux guys, I've been hearing for the last couple of years, well, Linux really is containers. It's all just something that sits on top and containers, of course, is the Windows variant now, too, but you just buy your Linux and Containers comes with it and now, we say oh, we've got LinuxKit which is, I'm going to have a distribution that's fast, optimized, four containers that Docker and that ecosystem they're building's going to do. >> Same as everywhere, I mean Ben Golub laid it out maybe with Solomon this morning. Containers are really the predominant packaging of applications large and small across increasingly not just traditional enterprise and consumer applications but also the internet of things, so, but internet of things and the development of AI for the IOT is a huge theme that I'm focusing on in my coverage for Wikibon. I see a fair amount of enablers for that here. >> Great, and Jim, and absolutely, there was a big slide with Docker will be where you need to be, so, whether you're in the public cloud, of course, there's container services from, we've got Amazon ECS right here. You've got what's going on with Google and their containers. Microsoft Badger of course, so, there's so many pieces, so, a lot we're going to go through, we've got a full slate of interviews, of course, everybody can watch here at SiliconANGLE TV. If you want to participate in social conversation, John Furrier's actually been banging away, it's CrowdChat.net/DockerCon is where we're having some of the social conversations, of course, you can always reach out, I'm just @Stu on Twitter, Jim is @JamesKobielus which you'll see on the lower third when we put him up here is where he is on Twitter, if you're at the Expo Hall, you'll see the Expo Hall's behind us, we're just in the corner of the Expo Hall, going to be here for two days. Jim, I want to give you the final word on our intro here, come to the end of the day, what do you hope to have walked away with? >> Well, I hope to walk away with a more rich and nuance understanding of this ecosystem and the differentiators among the dozen upon dozens of companies here. Partners of Docker. Really what I see is a huge growth of the Kubernetes segment in terms of orchestration, scaling, of cluster management for all things to do with, not just Docker, but really Container D, which, of course, Docker recently opensourced, it's core container engine. I think this is totally exciting to see just the vast range of specialty vendors in the area providing tools to help you harden your containerized microservices environment for your CloudNative computing environments, that's what I hope to take away. I'm going to walk these halls when I'm not physically on The Cube and talk to these vendors here, exciting stuff, innovation. >> Yeah, absolutely, and you gave us so many pieces there, Jim. You mentioned Kubernetes, of course. There is that little bit of do I use Dockers Forum or do I use Kubernetes? Docker, of course, would like you to use Forum, that's what they're >> And in fact, that was an excellent discussion this morning about swarms advantages as well. I don't want to make it sound like I'm totally shifting towards Kubernetes in terms of my preferences. I mean, clearly, it's a highly innovative and dynamic space, so, Docker is making some serious investments and beefing up their entire enterprise stack including Swarm. >> Where I wanted to go, actually, with that is the Moby project actually is one of those things I saw as a nice maturation of what we hear from Docker. For the first couple of years, Docker said batteries are included but swapable, which means things like Swarm are going to make it in there, but you could use an alternative, so you want to use Kubernetes, go ahead and that's fine and Moby has allowed them to take all the components that are opensource. People inside Docker can work on them, people outside can collaborate them, much more modular. Reminds me of how when we talk about how development teams work, it's those two pizza teams, Docker has them internal, they're pulling more people in, how is that opensource collaboration going to expand? Scalability, I think, is the word that I heard over and over again in the Keynote. Scaling of the company, scaling of the products, scaling of the ecosystem, so something more interesting, say, we've been scaling our operations and we got two full days here of coverage so make sure to stay with The Cube for everything we've got here and thank you for watching The Cube. (upbeat tech music)

>> Announcer: Live from Austin, Texas. It's theCUBE. Covering DockerCon 2017. Brought to you by Docker, and support from its ecosystem partners. (bright electronic music) >> Welcome to SiliconANGLE Media's coverage of DockerCon 2017. This is theCUBE. I'm Stu Miniman. My cohost for the next two days is Jim Kobielus, and happy to have as our first guest on the program, is Brian Gracely. A year ago, actually, Brian had a beard, and he was one of the hosts on theCUBE. He's now with Red Hat. Brian, welcome back to the program. >> Stu, great to be on this side of the table again. Good to see you guys. >> And Brian, you were at the first CUBE event back in 2010. We've had you on at least once or twice every year. You did a few more when you were on our team, but happy to have you back as a guest. Why don't you bring our audience up to speed? What brought you to Red Hat and what's your role there, and what brings you to DockerCon? >> Yeah, so, been at Red Hat about a year, a little less than a year now, worked on the OpenShift team, so focused on Kubernetes containers, integrated Linux. It was a great opportunity to be in open source, which I've been working on for a year. It was at home, it was in Raleigh, and it's a great team. It's a team that's growing. The Kubernetes space is growing, so, the vendor side of the world drew me back into Red Hat, so it's been good. >> Yeah, open source, big component about what we're talking here at this show. I heard open source mentioned a ton. It was developers, it was contributors. What's your take, did you get a chance to see some of the keynote? Solomon got out there, thanked the 3300-plus contributor. When he put up the name of the companies, I think it was 41% of the contributors for all of this are independent, but then, Red Hat's in the top six companies there. What's your take on that and the ecosystem in general? >> Yeah, I thought it was, I thought the keynote was good. Obviously, the show's doing well, so it's great to see the container space doing really well. We've been part of the Docker ecosystem since sort of day one. We like to say that we're probably the biggest distributor of what used to be Docker is now Moby, within Rail. But yeah, I think we see that, we obviously believe in the open source movement. We're seeing more and more customers, our customers who want to contribute, who want to make it the de facto buying decision as to what they use, so, yeah, it's great to see not only huge open source support, but then seeing it become, to blossom into very viable, commercial offerings around the market. >> Yeah, so, Brian, your team actually wrote a blog leading up to the show that says, "Containers or Linux." After listening to the keynote, with LinuxKit announced, it felt like, oh well, Linux is containers. It seems like, reminds me back, Sun is, the network is the computer, the computer is the network. It's all kind of looking at it. What's your take as to kind of the relationship of containers with Linux, of course Windows fits in the mix, too, but the operating system and the containers. >> Well, I think, the reason we really put that out was if you go back a little bit historically, not to bore people, containers aren't a Docker thing. Containers are a Linux thing. They were created by Google, Red Hat made a huge contribution sort of secondarily around namespaces, Google did cgroups, IBM did LXC, so it's been a core Linux feature for over a decade now. Docker did a great job of making it easier to use, but at the end of the day, even if you look at, like, what LinuxKit and some of these other things are, they're not about sort of Linux versus Windows, it's, they are all Linux, and it's how do I represent Linux in ways of doing that? So we really kind of want to just reinforce this idea that there are things that you expect out of your operating system, containers being one of them, but if you look at every other project that's being built around this space, whether it's Kubernetes, whether it's management tools that are be, they're all being built on Linux. That's the foundation of this, and it's kind of just a reinforcement to people that, remember where your tools come from, what that thing is that drives security for you, things in that space. >> Brian, you wrote a lot about kind of cloud-native and that journey kind of, rewriting applications, containers, for the fits into that a lot. What have you seen changing kind of last 12 to 18 months? Couple of shows I've been to lately, it feels like we're talking about lift-and-shift more than we are about building new applications. What's the application space look like, and I know Jim's going to want to jump in here. He covers the cloud-native stuff. >> So I think there's a couple of big things that, and I wrote about it for a while, and it's, how much has changed in the last two years have been really interesting. So, I think originally, when you went and looked at platforms, whether it was OpenShift or Cloud Foundry or Heroku or whatever, lots of sort of what we used to call opinionated systems. You dictated what developers did, right? And then, we had-- >> Jim: Opinionated systems? >> Very opinionated platforms, right? The opinion of us, the creators, was going to get forced on you, the developer, right? >> Stu: It made a lot of the decisions for you, so. (Jim laughs) >> And again, the idea was make it easier for you. You don't have to think about those things, but you're going to get them in the way that we want them, and what ended up happening was Docker would kind of became a standard way, a standard container format. We ended up having these open source schedulers like Mesos and Kubernetes and other things, and that allowed the platforms to be a little more, what I was calling composable, so, because developers may not want to use the languages that you force on them, they may not want to use them in those ways. So I think what we've seen is this sort of blurring between what used to be heavily opinionated to becoming more composable, modular, and there's always this trade-off between how much do developers want to care, how much do they not? So that's one big trend that we've seen, is this start of back and forth of what that is. The other one we saw was-- >> In terms of compatibility, (mumbles) quickly, do you see any trend in this space, containers, toward visual composition of applications? What I'm seeing in today, and I've seen generally in this space, is mostly coding, command line interfaces, any visual composition tools you guys provide or any partners of yours for-- >> Brian: Yeah, there's-- >> For building containerized applications? >> And so I think there's sort of two pieces there. It's a great question because ultimately, if the coding piece is hard, you only reach a small segment of those developers, right? You want to, it's like when websites came out, they were all hand-coded in HTML and stuff, and then you had things like Dreamweaver and these other visual tools, and then it exploded. We've seen that. To be successful in this, you've got to have tools in the desktop that make it easier for the developers. Red Hat does something that we call the Container Developer Kit, which is really, write your application, a lot of the stuff in the background gets hidden. Docker has Docker for Mac and Docker for Windows. We see some other tools. So that piece is important. The other piece that, to come back to your question about it, is it lift-and-shift? We probably see 75, 80% of the customers we work with who say, "Look, I know I've got to do cloud-native. "I've got digital transformation "and all these sort of things, "but I've got a lot of portfolio "that I'd like to modernize. "Can I do that with containers?" And I think what we've seen is, for the early days, it was containers are only for new. They only work for microservices, they're only for new, and what we're seeing, and this again goes back to the sort of, containers are Linux, is customers say, "I have an application that ran perfectly fine in Linux. "Why wouldn't it run really well in there?" And we've got customers nowadays, and this sort of blows people's minds, like, we've got customers who will pick up things like WebSphere, put them into a container, run them, modernize them somewhat, but, because the platform will give them automation, it gives them high availability, it gives them scalability, and they go, it works, and they get cost-effectiveness. So we're seeing a lot of that because you can address a lot of your portfolio. >> Oh, Brian, it's the typical maturation that we've seen. The use cases that put on stage, keep planes in the air, power the largest infrastructure, monitor fire alarms, websites, it's like, oh, this is same thing we saw in virtualization in every kind of way that's like, oh, containers run applications. (chuckles) >> Right. >> Right? >> Jim: Have you seen a big push by your customers or in the ecosystem to containerize more of the deep learning and artificial intelligence toolkits, like TensorFlow or Theano? Is that, with your customers, is that a big priority rate now or going forward? >> Yeah, so, I think the big data space was always an area that was kind of on the fence if it made sense to, in container, do you need an abstraction layer, do you want to be closer to it? We're starting to see more and more, so for example, Google with TensorFlow. Google, huge proponent of containers and Kubernetes. They're doing a lot of work to make that happen. We've been doing a lot of work with the Spark community to make Spark work really well in containers, and it becomes an issue of can you manage the resources? The container schedulers do that great, and then, can you manage getting access to the data, and we're seeing more and more storage become container-native and people understanding how that works, so yeah, the breadth of what you can do around containers has gotten very, very large. >> Yeah, any difference in how your customers look at it, whether they're doing on-premises or public cloud, or do things like Docker and Kubernetes make that not matter as much? >> I think what they, so, I joke all the time, none of our customers have a container problem. None of them have a, none of them wake up in the morning and say, "That's my problem," right? What they're saying more and more is, "I know I want to, I'd like to start getting away "from maybe owning data centers, "or by destiny, being data centers. "I need to leverage public clouds, multiple, plural," and they're sort of saying, "Look, I get the benefit of what they do, "but there's still operational differences, "what Azure does, what AWS does. "I would like some level of consistency," and so that's where the OpenShift conversation really comes into play. The operational model I can build with OpenShift as a platform is the same thing I can run on top of Azure, on top of AWS, on top of Google, and we're seeing more and more of our deals, our customers who say, "That's what it's going to look like. "Help us make that work," and today, they do it on a basic level. Somebody like Volvo, for example, some in their data center, some in AWS, and then, more and more, they go, "Go contribute upstream in Kubernetes, "and federate this stuff." Make it look more consistent, make it look more operationally consistent, and that's coming in the next version of Kubernetes, and so forth, so, that shift is happening, but what they want is sort of this consistency. The Kubernetes part, the Docker part, they're sort of details under the covers, but it does provide them a level of portability that's really important. >> All right, Brian, want to give you the final word. Red Hat has got Red Hat Summit coming up, OpenStack and Jim Whitehurst is going to be given, I think, the day one keynote there. Talk a little bit of Red Hat's presence here at the show, what we can expect to see in this space from Red Hat throughout the year. >> Yeah, so I think, from us here, and what you'll see at Red Hat Summit, like, containers are front and center. Obviously, it's an extension of Linux, but it's, we're becoming a company that's more about how to do applications faster, how to modernize applications, how to do them across multiple clouds, and it's this whole idea that those things that used to be really hard, you do them in software now, and the community is helping to fix those, so big presence here. Again, we've got a ton of customers who use Docker as a packaging format, run their containers, open, at Red Hat Summit, we're going to have 25-plus production OpenShift customers that you want to talk about running governments, running airplanes, running, like, they're going to talk about that stuff, so that part, we're really excited about. It's fun, it's fun at this point. They don't, our customers don't want to talk about containers. They want to talk about this digital transformation stuff, and that is making the technology industry fun again. >> All right, so that was my last question for Brian Gracely with Red Hat. My last question for Brian Gracely of the Cloudcast is, I haven't heard Serverless mentioned yet this week. What's wrong? >> I know, that's a good, it's a good question. The Serverless stuff's taking off two weeks from now, probably, at the same, no, down the street. Serverlessconf is happening. >> Stu: Is that part of OSCON then, or? >> No, it's its own event now. >> It's own event. >> Serverless complement to their own event. They'll probably get five, 600 people. We're seeing it as another way of looking at applications. It's functions, containerize them, write your own code, and you'll see us, you'll see what we're doing around OpenShift begin to incorporate that, sort of functions as a server, Serverless stuff, very, very soon, and around Boston timeframe. >> All right, well, Brian, always great to talk to you, and glad I can bring it to the audience, so Brian Gracely with Red Hat. We'll be back with lots more coverage here, DockerCon 2017. You're watching theCUBE. 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