>>Okay, welcome back everyone to the Cube's live coverage here in Monaco for the MoCo crypto summit. I'm John fur. You're host of the cube. We got a great guest Dustin plant Boltz who is a crypto advisor, but also the crypto editor for Forbes Monaco here. Seeing the official event, the AAL event of the Monaco crypto summit in Monaco, your coverage area for Forbes, your MCing. Welcome to the >>Cube. Thank you for having me. And it's, it's always fun when I get to have an event in our backyard, cuz I get to hear what others know. And to me I'm very curious. Yeah. Always >>Learning. So you're on the MC on the stage here, you know, queue in the program online great program. So it's innovative event, inaugural event, great name by the way. Crypto summit and mono crypto >>Summit. Yeah, the MoCo crypto summit. >>That sounds like I want to attend every year. >>You're you're more than welcome to attend next year. >>Well, I hope so. Either way. I'm at the Al event with you. So gimme the take on what's on stage. What's been the program, like what's your observations going on here at the event today? >>So what we're starting to see globally is this digitization of things and the people that are part of the innovation side. And so that's what we've been able to see this morning. We're we're now at the break is what sort of companies are out there, the good ones and what are they building? Is this innovation? Is it even innovative and figuring out how they're gonna do it and the roadmaps to getting there from the metaverses to NFTs and even to decentralized finance. >>Yeah, it's the number one question I get is what's legit. What's not legit. And then you're starting to see the, the, the wheat and the shaft separating here and you know, something called crypto winter. But I don't see it. I mean, I see correction for some of the bad things going on in terms of not having the right underpinning infrastructure, the creative ideas are amazing. We're also seeing like digital bits and other platforms kind of coming together to enable the creators and, and the NFT side for instance has been huge. What has been your observation on that enablement? Because you have two schools of thoughts. You have the total nerds we're up and down building everything. Then you have artists and creators, whether it's music, tech apps building, they don't necessarily want to get 'em to the covers. They don't want to deal with all that. Yeah. Have you seen, what's your, what's your take on that? >>So I I'm seeing that a lot of these major brands, you know, they they're striving for excellence. You know, they're being more careful of who they partner with and the types of companies and you know, they, they look at it from reality and a little tough love to figure out should they align their brand. So what we're seeing here is is that there is so much inertia moving forward. That we're just at the beginning of this thing. Yeah. McKinsey recently said that the ecosystem will be over $30 trillion. So when you recognize that we are so early and it's those right now, or some might say are the risk takers. But to me there, aren't taking risk. They're being a part of making history. >>Yeah. You get the pioneers and you get the financial. So as they come together, how do you see the market? Cause what I've noticed with crypto and here in, in this, this market is international. One lot of international finance us is kind of lag behind. You got all kinds of rules, but you got the, the combination of the, the future billionaires. Sure. Okay. The pioneers and then the financeers yeah. Coming the money, the money and the power coming together. What's your reporting show you that's going on right now? What should people know about on how this is evolving? What they shouldn't >>Expect? Well, so you have a group that wants to become cryers they're seeing these individuals globally. They're making lots and lots of money, but what they don't realize is that not everybody is gonna have that outcome, but looking at the technology aspect of it and how it's going to improve a system that many can agree is collectively broken legacy just can't move beyond. It was never designed to you'll see people take shots at certain card companies and I go, but you recognize they developed the assembly line. And so I'm seeing that the smart money they got in long ago, believe it or not. And those now they're looking out for their errors are the ones that saying, I will not have an excuse when my, my grandkids or my, my nieces or my nephews, when they come and ask, where were you when the greatest transformational shift in human history, from both education to jobs, to careers and even wealth was being shifted to a digital world, why were you on the sideline waiting? And so I think what we're gonna see is this tsunami coming, and it's gonna start with one big player and then two and five, you go, go alone. You go far, go together. You go further. And that's what we're seeing is that this collective is moving forward >>And the community, we just had Beth Kaiser on, I've known Beth for many, many years. And she's what she's her journey has done. She's had a great mission and then gets she's a data scientist and came to Analytica. Now she's doing work with Ukraine and the rallying support around it has been impressive. And it's a community vibe, but the community's not just like sympathetic they're hands on together to your point. >>Yeah. It, but it also takes courage. I mean, you look at Britney Kaiser and what she had, and to me, courage is not, not having fear. Courage is not allowing the fear to stop. You, you know, recently asked my executive coach, who's 85 and I'm turning 39. This question of, do you let fear stop you? How do you decide? And he said, you know, you can either let, you can either ride the dragon. And I said, or let the dragon chase you. And Brittany has been one of these that made a decision to do what was right. And it came down to integrity. Yeah. >>So what are you have to these days what's going on in your world? >>What is going on in my world? So I moderate events all over and I connect and I like to ask people questions. So I'm gonna ask you, I'm gonna turn at the interviewer on the >>Interview. It's good. Natural. >>What are you learning? >>I mean, I'm learning, I mean today or this week or this month or this year. Well, I was just talking with Brittany about this. The security world is converging cloud technology, cloud computing. That revolution has just been amazing. Amazon posted their earnings yesterday. They blew it away as far as I'm concerned. So they kind of show there's no tech recession. I've learned that this recession, that we're so called in is the first downturn in tech where there's been cloud players as hyperscalers as an economic engine. Okay. So from a, from a business perspective, Amazon web services, Microsoft Azure now Google cloud, Alibaba's now in, in international version. This is the first time at downturns ever happened with cloud computing as an economic engine. And so therefore what I'm seeing is the digital transformation that's happening across the world for enterprises and entrepreneurs is not stopping. >>It's actually accelerating. So although the GDPs down in inflation is down, you're seeing a massive shift continuing to accelerate, spending and transformation with cloud technologies and decentralized. So you can almost see it kind of in the, this event and other events, even some of the bigger events, the best smartest people are working on it. The applications in all the categories are transforming. If cloud is step one, decentralized gonna be step two. So I see that kind of bridge going from cloud computing, cloud native to decentralized native. And I think a D DAPP market's gonna just explode. I think NFTs are just scratched on the surface. I think that's kind of, I won't say gimmicky, but I think no, but you're right, much more of a much more of a, an illustration that there's more coming. >>There is a lot more coming because people are seeing that there's more to an NFT than an ugly luck and J you know, ugly and JP image that there's, that there's data in there. And that your avatar will be stored as just that as an NFT. And I learned today from go of sing, that decentralization is, is the key to innovation. And I agree with that statement. Holy. >>Yeah. I mean, I think access to stuff is gonna be multidimensional. Like you think about the NFT as, as an ID, whether it's him or UN unstoppable domains is that company just got financing another round where the billion dollars, their concept is like, Hey, one NFT is your access for all of your potential identities in context. >>And isn't that exciting that we're now gonna be at this stage where you travel with you. Yeah. Instead of someone else traveling with you, you get to decide who you will be. And to me, everything you're doing in this world, this reality is now becoming part of your digital asset as a whole. >>I remember when I started my podcasting company in 20 2004, early pioneers, Evan Williams was there with Odo and you had, you know, the blogging revolution going on that whole democratization wave actually didn't happen right then. But all the people that were involved in that web two oh, kind of CRAs was all about democratization. It's kind of happening now. I mean, 15, 20 years later at web services is transformed cloud the democratization for own your own data, putting users in control. And I think in the middle of that, the Facebook's the world, the world garden data, you know, manipulation kind of took it off track a little bit. So I think now I'm, I psych to see that it's back on track to where it was. I mean, Facebook made billions of dollars. Now you got LinkedIn. I mean, LinkedIn's great for your resume, but it's also become a wall's garden with no data export. >>Yeah. And then >>No APIs keep >>Changing. Think about this. That if you wanna apply for a job, just change something quickly. Yeah. Ah, now you're the senior VP. Yeah. Before you were, you're an office manager >>Like to see the immutable block change, >>You don't get to see when did the record change. Yeah. >>Reputation data. You're a digital exhaust people gonna wanna reign that in. And I think the user in charge message that Brit Kaiser was talks about is hugely a mess under, under, under amplified concept. Digital assets are key, but the data ownership is something that I think is, is >>Powerful. So I'm gonna be launching a brand new company in and around September called cryptos. And it's a crypto career center. Think of it like the, the crypto for LinkedIn, that it's an aggregator becoming the industry standard for education, becoming the industry standard for crypto ships, with partners like ledger and moon pay and Casper labs. >>Look at this, we got an exclusive scoop on the cube. This >>Is the first time I will tell you this the first time in, in an environment like this. Yeah. That I'm excited to, I'm excited to talk about, right. Because it's time to be part of the change. Yeah, exactly. You know, as a father, I look at, I know where it's headed in the world of business. I know in the world of this, that we're gonna call the internet of connected things. Yeah. That it's gonna require you to have a certain talent skill or a certain certification. And to me, it's important to have an industry that supports one >>Staff and also, and also history on misinformation, smear campaigns can happen and ruin a career >>Overnight. Can you imagine that one little thing and because the internet never forgets. Yeah. It stays around indefinitely. >>The truth has to come out. Dustin. Great to have you on the queue. Thank you so much. Final question. What have you learned in there is MC what's your takeaway real quick? >>What I've learned is I never tire of learning. Thank you again, to learn more. Dustin plan.com. >>All right. Thanks for coming. Thank you. Cube coverage here at Monaco. I'm Shawn furry. We'll back with more coverage after this short break.

>>Welcome back to VMO 2022. We're in the home stretch. Now, Dave ante for Dave Nicholson, and we're excited to have drew Schlissel on he's the director of product marketing at wasabi, and he is joined by Dustin Albertson, the manager of cloud and application alliances, product, product management at Veeam software. Dustin, did I get that right? You got it right. All right. You're gonna explain all those little titles in a moment. So wasabi is a company cool name, but you may not know much about them drew. What does wasabi do? >>We do cloud storage, plain and simple. It is the one thing we do extremely well. It's S3 compatible, and it covers a broad range of use cases, right? Primarily we work with Veeam on backup and recovery, and >>We're gonna get into that. But when we, what there's a lot of people do cloud storage, a lot of people do object store. What makes you wasabi unique >>Simplicity, predictability performance security, right? Predictability. Let's talk about price, right? That's the thing that gets people's attention, right? Oh, sure. Okay. You can look at it. One of two ways. It's either one fit the price of all the hyperscalers, significant difference there, or right. For fundamentally the same price. You get five times more storage, which makes a huge difference, especially in the backup space. When you want to have a lot of backups, right. Folks would prefer to have months of backups as opposed to days or weeks. Right? >>How do you, how do you do that? Because, because there's, you know, maybe >>It sounds like magic, doesn't >>It? Yeah. Yeah. I mean, you know, look at us, we've all been around the block quite a few times and we know that the bits and the bites and the bolts are all basically the same. What are you doing to get that level of? >>I can't tell you >>Secret's secret. It's secret. >>Look, it, it doesn't have to be that expensive. Okay. Now granted, there's some things obviously we do that are proprietary and different from, >>Well, like stealing electricity from your neighbor or something. I mean, what, >>You just run a cord over a >>Absolutely that's one way to cut down on price. But because we are so focused on just the storage, right. And our founders, you know, the gentleman who founded Carbonite, no a thing or two about storage. Sure. Right. We have a very highly optimized stack, very efficient. You know, you guys know what raw to usable story is. Right? You've gone through that TCO analysis before, and we're highly efficient in how we use the raw storage. And we pass that price on to our customers. Right. We believe that a low price cloud storage, right? One tier always hot, always available. It gives our customers the ability to spend their money in other places. Right. >>Well, and, and there's a price umbrella that the public cloud guys have is kind of a gift that they've given you. Hey, look at Amazon's operating profits last quarter. It was 35%. Those are like Oracle operating margins. Not that I, we don't know what your operating margins are, but I I've followed David friend's career for a long, long time. He's got good nose for business. But so Dustin, when you, when you hear drew talk about the ability to retain that much data, what does that mean for Veeam customers? >>So the primary thing for Veeam customers is the ease of use. I would say, you know, the, the performance and things like that are all nice, right? They're, they're important. But primarily what I see is people say how easy it is to use and how easy it is to price. Now, the objective, you know, the alternative is you go to another cloud provider and you say, well, how much will this cost me per month? You really have to underst yes, you really have to understand object storage, how Veeam works, how we're moving data, all the API calls, all of that to really kind of correlate out a guesstimate of what your price would be per month. You know, with LASA it's, it's a flat fee it's per terabyte. You know what it is gonna be? That's it? There's no API charges. There's no egres. So the customers really love that. Ease of use this become one of the most popular endpoints for object storage for our customers. >>Imagine this, right? You go to best buy and you buy a refrigerator and you bring it home and you stock it with all your favorite drinks and snacks. Okay. You on game day, you go and you open the fridge and you hear a sound Bing. And it's your phone and it's your credit card company telling you that you've been charged a door opening fee. Okay. And then you grab a beer out of that fridge, Bing, Bing, and you hear another ring and now you're getting a beer extraction fee. Okay. Now I want to be fair to, you know, all the sponsors here, but okay. With wasabi, you can open that door. You could stand there. You can air condition, the whole house. You can take a beer out and put a beer back or whatever your favorite beverage is. And you're not gonna hear that noise. Okay. Very straightforward. Like in, in geometry class, right? The slope of a line Y equals MX plus B B equals zero. Okay. Well, >>Whoa. Well, you had me at free beer. You didn't, >>You don't, but you understand why? >>Why would you, you don't need to go see >>To open your fridge and take out a beverage, take out a snack. Okay. That's the predictable part of wasabi. That's what's resonating so strongly with folks where everything else is in this world. Unpredictable. >>So ease, simplicity. Maybe the answer to that is, well, there's all this other stuff in the cloud. I can just, it's convenient for me. It's right there. So how do you address that convenience factor? All these other services, you know, that I can get streaming and machine learning and all that other great stuff. How do you address that? >>Sometimes all you need is storage. Okay. That no, it that's yet put, okay. That's beauty of wasabi. We're not trying to be everything to everyone. We're trying to be one thing executed very well for a, a specific set of users and use cases. >>I may be a little objective here, but I, I, you know, I've grown up with you guys, right? You, you, you were one of the first partners that I started working with and, and, you know, I've seen you kind of grow, but one of the things I think that you've done a real good job at is, is like you say, sticking to your, your lanes, you know, just going after use cases that just need data. Right. I don't need to get into the AI or the analytics or all of this. We just do this and do it well. And, and people have resonated with that. Right? Yeah. >>So big topic here of course is ransomware. Yeah. 3, 2 11, 0. What is that? What are the threes? The twos, the ones >>That's you, you gotta explain that one. Okay. >>So forever we had the 3, 2, 1 rule, right? Like three copies of data, two different, two different copies, two different media types. Yeah. One offsite. And then one is, is testing. And then zero now is, is validation. BA basically reuse that data. Make sure that you're testing it because if you're not, if you're following through two one, and you're not actually testing your data, is it really good? You don't know. You're just, you may have bad copies spread out all over the place. So one of the things where wasabi shines is is that they don't have these E risk charges. They don't have these API charges. So you can test that data. You can, after you send a backup up there, restore it somewhere else and validate that it works and then get rid of it. And it's still sitting up there in BAA. >>So you're not trying to balance your activities and your operational requirements with your, with your bill. Correct. You're not getting yelled at, by the, the controller at the end of the month. >>You're unconstrained. Yeah. Right. And I think also imutability comes into play. Correct. As well. >>Talk about >>That. Right. So, you know, we heard this morning in the keynote, right? That backup data sets are, you know, one of the main attack vectors, right. For cyber criminals. And it makes sense, right. They take down your primary systems and they control your backup systems. They've got you. You have no choice, but to pay that ransom. Okay. So mutability, that means that your backups are untouchable, your root user, your admins, the folks at wasabi, the folks at Veeam, nobody can alter that data period. End of story. Okay. That saves you from yourself that saves you from the hackers, right? I mean the most disturbing story I've read about cyber warfare right now is that people are getting bribe offers from these cyber gangs. And they're just, you know, for a couple of Bitcoin handing over the keys to the kingdom with imutability, you're actually safe from that scenario. >>So that's a service, correct? >>No, it's a feature. >>Okay. So can I turn it off? >>Yeah. You don't have to use it. >>No. Can I, after I've, after I've turned it on, can I turn it off? >>Oh, it's up to you. I mean, why don't you talk about >>That? Yeah. Yeah. So it's, it's an API. So if let's say you send some backups up there today and you set it for two weeks and you decide today. Oh, I made a mistake. I wanna turn it off. You can't turn it off. Yeah. >>Okay. So as long as you set that policy, it's, it's a big warning, right? You can't undo this. Correct. Okay. So even if I come, come to jump to the admin with a bunch of Bitcoin yep. He or she can't undo, right? >>Nope. That's right. And you can set it for two weeks, two months, two years. Right. You can use it to secure your backups. Yep. Right. You can also use that same feature in compliance situations. Right. Regulatory environments, where you've gotta retain customer data for, you know, 5, 7, 10 years. Right. By using that imutability feature, you guarantee the integrity of that data for whatever period you set. >>And it's a feature it's not a paid for service. Is that right? >>It is included as part of the service. >>Okay. So I don't >>Free beer and free meat. >>I think I'm correct that some, some competitors you're paying for that service. So if you turn it off, there's a, if you don't stop paying, there's a, there's a theory. They could turn it off on you. They will warn you. >>Sure. But >>That says to me that somebody could be tempted by a few Bitcoin. >>That's not a mutable. Well's >>Notable. I agree. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. >>Well, and, and there is a charge to use it in other places because it's an API request. Right. It's an action. It's opening the fridge. >>It's like texting. Yes. Maybe a charge. >>Yeah. I remember. I remember those days. Was it 10 cents? A 10 cents a message or something Telegraph. >>Yeah. >>Yeah. >>Yeah. You still get those messages. Right? Text, text fees may apply. I'm like really? Okay. So tell me more about, so you got me. I'm sold. Okay. I've I've David friends got good job. Got cred, got credibility. Okay. But I have some other questions. Like where's my data. You guys running your own data centers. What's your global footprint. How do you deal with data sovereignty? All that stuff. >>So right now, oh boy. Now I'm on the spot. I wanna say 11 locations around the world. It's our gear. We're running it in concert with folks who are helping us host that system. Right. But we have complete control of course, over our systems. We're everywhere. Right? Just open, let's see. Toronto Frankfurt, Paris, London, Sydney just spun up in the last week. We've got Singapore coming online. I think in the next two weeks. Two >>In Japan. >>Yep. Two in Japan, multiple locations in the United States. So in terms of sovereignty, right, as long as folks are keeping it within, you know, their, their physical boundaries, not a problem. And if folks want to use, you know, other locations in other countries, great. We can support that as well. >>So you got momentum as a business. I mean, that's pretty clear. Yeah. Just from the discussions I've had with, with folks like David, and obviously you you're excited about this, where's it coming from? Is it really that, that price factor that's driving people to you? Is it Dustin said simplicity. I mean, where are you seeing the momentum geographies? Where is it? Where's the action. >>I I'll say, you know, from my point of view, it's, it's been a combination of all that, right? It, it's simple. It's easy to use a, like a user can, any user who's not cloud friendly, right. Can log in and create one. It's a simple portal to create a bucket and then start sending stuff off site. But also they've, they've kind of, they reminded me of a younger Veeam, like when they first started, because they went after the channel and they went and started these partner programs and, and MSP programs and things like that that have been really successful as far as one of the key markets is MSPs. Right? Because they, you know, want a cheap place to put this data. They don't wanna have to buy appliances. They don't wanna have to go to AWS and things like that. So this has been really appealing to >>Them. You know, it's interesting. So I have a, we have a partnership with a data company down in New York called enterprise technology research. We write a breaking analysis every week and we use a lot of their data. One of the things that popped up recently, maybe a year ago, OpenStack I'm like OpenStack. So we dug in like where's OpenStack and what it was was MSPs didn't want pay the VTax. Right. So they were rolling their own with, with open source and open stack. It was red hat services, blah, blah, blah. But it sounds like a similar dynamic, especially with the MSPs. >>I, so I think we've, I, I hate to use the, the metaphor, but I will. Right. There's a perfect storm happening, right. Especially in the last, what, two years. All right. The cloud has been gaining traction, but we've been around long enough to see the pendulum swinging. Right. Some folks went crazy for the cloud and then they got their bill and then they went crazy to get back out of the cloud. But now, you know, with distributed workforces, with the, you know, the, the constant attacks on their, their on-prem systems, right. The growth in cloud across the board has been phenomenal. I know you're a market watcher. Right. I know you guys are keeping close eyes. I saw your recent analysis on the cybersecurity firms. Right. It continues to grow. There's no question about it. We're we're on that wave. Right. And I think we've, you know, we're not, we're, we're, I don't know if it's the long board or the short little snappy board. Yes. We actually identify and, and, and went after the opportunity to partner with Veeam very early on, because it's the perfect work case work, work load. >>How long can you sustain that? And still resist the temptation to come out with some new shiny object to distract people? >>I >>Mean, what, what, what does that, what does that look like in terms of, as you look out in this laser focused yeah. Addressable market that you're going after now. >>So, you know, the best part about being here this week is having great conversations and, and talking to folks about what they're seeing in the marketplace and the different verticals. I don't think we've even scratched the surface of any of the verticals that we are working in today. Right. First and foremost, when it comes to backup and recovery, there's so much more opportunity with Veeam, right? Whether it's healthcare, manufacturing, logistics, analytics, backup of IML, you know, analysis, I think it's almost limitless, right. Data's growing what, 40, 80% year, over year, depending on who you ask. Right. Then the other things that we do, which maybe folks don't even know about, we have a burgeoning business in video surveillance, right. We're working with all the top partners in that sector. And the takeup is phenomenal because they are tweaking their technology to maintain a relatively small cash, right. OnPrem or in the central office. And then they're just kind of, you know, tearing that off to the cloud to have essentially a bottomless backup or archive of that footage. And they can do it at 4k. Here's the best part, right. When AK comes out, guess what, you know, that data set doubles in size. >>Right. But that's right in your zone. That's not stepping out that that's not stepping after that's that's classic leveraging. Good >>Answer. In other words. Yeah. Yeah. Thank you. >>I mean, if >>You're, if you're, if you're hitting singles and doubles all day long, right. Do you have to switch to be a power hitter and go for the fences and drop your batting average down, but hope that your slugging percentage goes up. I think you keep hitting singles doubles, you know, in triples, >>A lot of people on Sandhill road or, you know, at the bar at the Rosewood would disagree with you. Wow. And so I, I appreciate the discipline. >>Yeah. And it's true. And, and as we know, the industry is littered with a lot of those names that just didn't didn't make it >>Let's stay positive, you know? >>Okay. No he's saying yeah, no, no. A lot of guys at sand hill road would say, no, you gotta go for it. Yeah. You gotta, you gotta forget these singles. We want, >>Yeah. We need home runs gotta be >>Shiny. Well, I mean, look at Vema as a, as a, as an example right. Of a disciplined approach. Right. Exactly. To, to a space that they have steadily grown. I mean, congratulations. Right. You guys have been identified by IDC, right. Is essentially, you know, co number ones. And I expect that to be the number one in the market. Right. I think, you know, David friend clearly has provided excellent guidance, right. To steer the company that way. And I'm just really happy >>To be about that. Oh. And the Tam is data. Right. And you're, you're just another node on the data universe. Right. Which is, that's what you want. You want, you don't necessarily wanna move it around. Yeah. If you don't have to. >>It is interesting though. I mean, we, we are seeing more and more analysts identifying with Sabi as like the fourth player. Yeah. Which is pretty cool. Right. And I also heard it from some good sources this week that let's say one of the hyperscalers has, you know, started to yeah. Have conversations about us. Let's just >>Leave it. That's good. It means you're bothering people. Yeah. Said, all right, guys, we gotta go. Thanks so much for coming on the queue. Thank you. Great to have you. That was easy. Thank you. Appreciate it. Very welcome. All right. Keep it right there. We'll be back to wrap up day one from VMO in 2022, right back.

>> Announcer: From the CUBE studios in Palo Alto and Boston, connecting with thought leaders all around the world, this is a CUBE conversation. >> Welcome to this special CUBE conversation. I'm John Furrier here in Palo Alto, California. In our remote studio, we have a quarantine crew here during this COVID-19 crisis. Here talking about the crisis and the impact to business and overall work. Joined by a great guest Dustin Kirkland, CUBE alumni, who's now the chief product officer at Apex Clearing. This COVID-19 has really demonstrated to the mainstream world stage, not just inside the industry that we've been covering for many, many years, that the idea of at-scale means something completely different, and certainly DevOps and Agile is going mainstream to survive, and people are realizing that now. No better guest than have Dustin join us, who's had experiences in open source. He's worked across the industry from Ubuntu, Open Stack, Kubernetes, Google, Canonical. Dustin, welcome back to the CUBE here remotely. Looking good. >> Yeah, yeah, thanks, John. Last time we talked, I was in the studio, and here we are talking over the internet. This is a lot of fun. >> Well, I really appreciate it. I know you've been in your new role since September. A lot's changed, but one of the things why I wanted to talk with you is because you and I have talked many times around DevOps. This has been the industry conversation. We've been inside the ropes. Now you're starting to see, with this new scale of work-at-home forcing all kinds of new pressure points, giving people the realization that the entire life with digital and with technology can be different, doesn't have to be augmented with their existing life. It's a full-on technology driven impact, and I think a lot of people are learning that, and certainly, healthcare and finance are two areas, in particular, that are impacted heavily. Obviously, people are worried about the economy, and we're worried about people's lives. These are two major areas, but even outside that, there's new entrepreneurs right now that I know who are working on new ventures. You're seeing people working on new solutions. This is kind of bringing the DevOps concept to areas that quite frankly weren't there. I want to get your thoughts and reaction to that. >> Yeah, without a doubt, I mean, the whole world has changed in 30 short days. We knew something was amiss in China. We knew that there was a lot of danger for people. The danger for business, though, didn't become apparent until vast swathes of the work force got sent home. And there's a number of businesses and industries that are coping relatively well with this. Certainly those who have previously adopted, or have experienced, doing work remotely, doing business by video, teleconference, having resources in the cloud, having people and expertise who are able to continue working at nearly 100% capacity in 100% remote environments. There's a lot of technology behind that, and there are some industries, and in particular, some firms, some organizations, that were really adept and were able to make that shift almost overnight. Maybe there were a couple bumps along the way, some VPN settings needed to be tweaked, and Zoom settings needed to be changed a little bit, but for many, this was a relatively smooth transition, and we may be doing this for a very long time. >> Yeah, I want to get your thoughts, before we get into some of the product stuff that you guys are working on and some other things. What's your general reaction to people in your circles, inside industry and tech industry, and outside, what are you seeing a reaction to this new scale, work from home, social distancing, isolation, what are your observations? >> Yeah, you know, I think we're in for a long haul. This is going to be the new normal for quite some time. I think it's super important to check on the people you care about, and before we get into dev and tech, check on the people you care about, especially people who either aren't yet respecting the social distancing norms and impress upon them the importance that, hey, this is about you, this is about the people you care about, it's about people you don't even know, because there are plenty of people who can carry this and not even know. So definitely check on the people that you care about. And reach out to those people and stay in touch. We all need one another more than ever, right? I manage a team, and it's super important, I think, to understand how much stress everyone is under. I've got over a dozen people that report to me. Most of them have kids and families. We start out our weekly staff meeting now, and we bring the kids in. They're curious, they want to know what's going on. First five, 10 minutes of our meeting is meet the family. And that demystifies some of what we're doing, and actually keeps the other 50 minutes of the meeting pretty quiet in our experience. But it's really humanized an aspect of work from home that's always been a bit taboo. We laugh about the reporter in Korea whose kid and his wife came in during the middle of a live on-air interview. There's certainly, I've worked from home for almost 12 years, like, those are really uncomfortable situations. Until about a month ago, when that just became the norm. And from that perspective, I think there's a humanization that we're far more understanding of people who work from home now than ever before. >> It's funny, I've heard people say, you know, my wife didn't know what I did until I started working at home. And comments to seeing people's family, and saying, wow, that's awesome, and just bringing a personal connection, not just this software mechanism that connects people for some meeting, and we've all been on those meetings. They go long, and you're sitting there, and you're turning the camera off so you can sneeze. All those things are happening. But when you start to think about, beyond it being a software mechanism, that it's a social equation right now. People have shared experiences. It's been an interesting time. >> Yeah, and just sharing those experiences. We do a think internal on our Slack channel every day. We try to post a picture. We call it hashtag recess, and at recess we take a picture of walking the dogs, or playing with the kids, or gardening, or whatever it is, going for a run. Again, just trying to make the best of this, take advantage of, you know, it's hard working from home, but trying to take advantage of some of those once in a lifetime opportunities we have here. And my team has started pub quiz on Fridays, so we're mostly spread across, in the U.S., so we're able to do this at a reasonable hour, but the last couple of Fridays, we've jumped on a Zoom, downloaded a pub trivia game, most of us a crack a beer, or glass of wine, or a cocktail, and you know, it's just, it actually puts a punctuate mark on the end of the week, puts a period on the end of the week. Because that's the other thing about this, man, if you don't have some boundaries, it's easy to go from an eight or nine hour normal day to 10, 12, 14, 16 hour days, Saturday bleeds into Sunday bleeds into Monday, and then the rat race takes over. >> You got to get the exercise. You have a routine. That's my experience. What's your advice for people who are working at home for the first time? Do you have any best practices? >> I actually had a blog post on this about two weeks ago and put up almost a shopping list of some of the things that I've assembled here in the work from home environment. It's something I've been doing since 2008, so it's been there for a good long while. It's a little bit hard to accumulate all the technology that you need, but I would say, most important, have a space, some kind of space. Some people have more room or less, but even just a corner in a master bedroom with a standup desk, some space that is your own, that the family understands and respects. The other best practice is set some time boundaries. I like to start my day early. I'll try to break more a little bit for that recess, see the family some, and then knock off at a reasonable hour, so establish those boundaries. Yeah, I've got a bunch of tips in that blog post I can shoot you after this, but it's the sort of thing that, be a bit understanding, too, of other people in this situation for the first time, perhaps. So you know, offer whatever help and assistance you can, and be understanding that, man, things just aren't like they used to be. >> That's great advice. Thanks for the insights. Want to get to something that I see happening, and this always kind of happens when you see these waves where there's a downturn, or there's some sort of an event. In this case it's catastrophic in the way it vectored in like this and the impact that we just discussed. But what comes out of it is creativity around entrepreneurial activity, and certainly reinvention, businesses reforming, retrenching, resetting, whatever word, pivot, digital transformation, there's plenty of words for it. But this is the time where people can actually get a lot done. I always comment, in my last interview I did, you know, Shakespeare wrote Macbeth when he was sheltering in place, and Isaac Newton invented calculus, so you can actually get some work done. And you're starting to see people look at the new technology and start disrupting old incumbent markets, because now more than ever, things are exposed. The opportunity of recognition becomes clearer. So I wanted to get your thoughts on this. You're a product person, you've got a lot of product management skills, and you're currently taking this DevOps to financial market with fintech and your business, so you're applying known principles and software and tech and disrupting an existing industry. I think this is going to be a common trend for the next five years. >> Yeah, so on that first note, I think you're exactly right. There will be a reckoning, and there will be a ton of opportunities that come out of this for the already or the rapidly transformed digital native, digital focused business. There will be some that survive and thrive here. I think you're seeing a lot of this with the popularity of Zoom that has spiked recently. I think you're going to see technologies like DocuSign being used in places that, some of those places that still require wet signatures, but you just can't get to the notary and sign a, I don't know, a refi on your mortgage or something like that. And so I think you're going to see a bunch of those. The biggest opportunities are really around our education system. I've got two kids at home, and I'm in a pretty forward thinking school district in Austin, Texas, you know, but that's not the norm where our teachers are conducting classes and assignments over Zoom. I've got a kindergartener and a second grader. There's somewhat limits to what they can do with technology. I think you're going to see a lot of entrepreneurial solutions that develop in that space, and that's going to go from K through 12, and then into college. You think about how universities have had to shift and cancel classes, and what's happening with graduation. I've got a six and an eight year old, and I've been told I need to save $200,000 apiece for each of them to go to college, which is just an astounding number, especially to someone like me, who went to an inexpensive public university on a scholarship. Saving that kind of money for college, and just thinking about how much more efficient our education system might be with a lot more digital, a lot more digital education, digital testing and classes, while still maintaining the college experience, what that's going to look like in 10 years. I think we're going to see a lot of changes over these next 18 months to our educational system. >> Dustin, talk about the event dynamics. Physical events don't exist currently. Certainly, when they do come back, they should, and they will, the role of the virtual space is going to be highlighted and new opportunities will emerge. You mentioned education. People learn, not just for school, whether they're kids, whether they're professionals, learning and collaboration, work tools are going to reshape. What's your take on that marketplace, because we got to do virtual events. You can't just replicate a physical event and move it to digital. It's a complex system. >> Yeah, you're talking about an entire industry. We saw the Google Events, Google Next, Google IO, the Microsoft Events, just across the, I'm here in Austin, Texas, all of South by Southwest was canceled, which is just, it's breathtaking. When does that come back, and what does it look like? Is it a year or two or more from now? Events is where I spend my time, and when I get on a plane, and I fly somewhere, I'm usually going to a conference or trade show. Think about the sports industry. People who get on a plane, they go to an NFL game. John, I don't have all the answers, man, but I'm telling you, that entire industry is rapidly, rapidly going to evolve. I hope and pray that one day we're back to a, I can go back to a college football game again. I hope I can sit in a CUBE studio at a CUBE Con or an Open Stack or some other conference again. >> Hey, we should do a rerun, because I was watching the Patriots game last night, Tom Brady beating the Chiefs, October from last year. It was one of the best games of the season, went down to the wire, and I watched it, and I'm like, okay, that's Tom Brady, he's still in the Patriot uniform on the TV. Do we do reruns? This is the question. Right now, there's a big void for the next three months. What do we do? Do we replay the highlights from the CUBE? Do we have physical get togethers with Zoom? What's your take on how people should think about these events? >> Yeah, you know, the reruns only go so far, right? I'm a Texas Aggie, man. I could watch Johnny Football in his prime anytime. But I know what happened, and those games are just not as exciting as something that's a surprise. I'm actually curious about e-sports for the first time. What would it look like to watch a couple of kids who are really good at Madden Football on a Playstation go at it? What would other games that I've never seen look like? In our space, it's a lot more about, I think, podcasts and live content and staying connected and apprised of what's going on, making-- Oh, we locked up there for a second. It's, I think it's going to be really interesting. I'm still following you guys. I certainly see you active on social media. I'm sort of more addicted than ever to the live news, and in fact, I'm ready to start seeing some stuff that doesn't involve COVID-19, so from that perspective, man, keep churning out good content, and good content that's pertinent to the rest of our industry. >> That's great stuff. Well, Dustin, take a minute to explain what you're doing at Apex Clearing, your mission, and what are you guys excited about. >> Yeah, so Apex Clearing, we're a fintech. We're a very forward-focused, digitally-focused fintech. We are well positioned to continue servicing the needs of our clients in this environment. We went fully remote the first week of March, long before it was mandatory, and our business shifted pretty seamlessly. We worked through a couple of hiccups, provisioning extra VPN IP addresses, and upgrading a couple of service plans on some of the softwares, the service we buy, but besides that, our team has done just a marvelous job transitioning to remote. We are in the broker, dealer, and registered advisor space, so we provide the clearing services, which handles stock trades, equity trades, in the back end, and the custodial services. We actually hold, safeguard, the equities that our correspondents, we call our clients correspondents, their retail customers end up holding. So we've been around in our current form since about 2012. This was a retread of a previous company that was bought and retooled as Apex Clearing in 2012. Very shortly after that, we helped Robinhood, Wealthfront, Betterment, a whole bunch of really forward-looking companies reinvent what it meant to buy and sell and trade securities online, and to hold assets in a robo advisor like Betterment. Today, we are definitely well-known, well-respected for how quickly and seamlessly our APIs can be used by our correspondents in building really modern e-banking and e-brokerage experiences. >> So you guys-- >> So that went-- >> Are you guys like a DevOps platform-- >> We're more like software as a service for fintech and brokerage. So our products are largely APIs that our correspondents use their own credentials to interact with, and then using our APIs, they can open accounts, which means get an account number from the systems that allows them to then fund that account, connect via ACH and other bank connectivity platforms, transfer cash into those accounts, and then start conducting trades. Some of our correspondents have that down to a 60-second experience in a mobile app. From a mobile app, you can register for that account, if you need to, take a picture of an IED, have all of that imported, add your tax information, have that account number associated with your banking account, move a couple hundred dollars into that banking account, and then if the stock market's open, start buying and selling stock in that same window. >> Great, well, I wanted to talk about this, because to the earlier bigger picture, I think people are going to be applying DevOps principles, younger entrepreneurs, but also, reborn, if you will, professionals who are old school IT or whatever, moving faster. And you wrote a blog post I want to get your thoughts on. You wrote it on April second. How we've adapted Ubuntu's time-based release cycles to fintech and software as a service. What is that all about? What's the meaning behind this post? You guys are doing something new, unique, or-- >> To this industry and to many of the people around me, even our clients and customers around me, this is a whole new world. They've never seen anything like it. To those of us who have been around Linux, open source, certainly Ubuntu, Open Stack, Kubernetes, it's just standard operating procedures. There's nothing surprising about it, necessarily. But either it's some combination of the financial services world, just the nature of proprietary software, but also the concept of software as a service, SaaS, which is very different than Ubuntu or Kubernetes or Open Stack, which is released software, right. We ship software at the end of an Ubuntu cycle or a Kubernetes cycle. It's very different when you're a software as a service platform, and it's a matter of rolling out to production some changes, and those changes then going live. So, I wrote a post mainly to give some transparency, largely to our clients, our correspondents. We've got a couple hundred customers that use the Apex platform. I've met with many of them in a sort of one-on-many, one-to-one, one-on-many basis, where I'll show up and deliver the product road map, a couple of product managers will come and do a deep dive. Part of what we communicate to those customers is around, now, around our release cycles, and to many of them, it's a foreign concept that they've just never seen or heard before, and so I put together the blog post. We shared it internally, and educated the teams, and it was well-received. We shared it externally privately with a number of customers, and it was well-received, and a couple of them, actually a couple of the Silicon Valley based customers said, hey, why don't you just put this out there on Medium or on your blog or under an Apex banner, because this actually would be really well-received by others in the family, other partners in the family. So I'm happy to kind of dive into a couple of the key principles here, and we can sort of talk through it if you're interested, John. >> Well, I think the main point is you guys have a release cycle that is the speed of open source to SaaS, and fintech, which again, proprietary stuff is slower, monolithic. >> Yeah, the key principle is that we've taken this, and we've made it predictable and transparent, and we commit to these cycles. You know, most people maybe familiar with Ubuntu releasing twice a year, right, April and October, Ubuntu has released every April and October since 2004. I was involved with Ubuntu between 2008 and 2018 as an engineer, an engineering manager, and then a product manager, and eventually a VP of product at Canonical, and that was very much my life for 10 years, oriented around that. In that time, I spent a lot of time around Open Stack, which adopted a very similar model. Open Stack's released every six months, just after the Ubuntu release. A number of the members of the technical team and the committee that formed Open Stack came out of either Ubuntu or Canonical or both, and really helped influence that community. It's actually quite similar in Kubernetes, which developed independent, generally, of Ubuntu. Kubernetes releases on a quarterly basis, about every three months, and again, it's the sort of thing where it's just a cycle. It happens like clockwork every three months. So when I joined Apex and took a look at a number of the needs that we had, our correspondents had, our relationship managers, our sales team, the client-facing people in the organization, one of the biggest items that bubbled straight to the top is our customers wanted more transparency into our road maps, tighter commitments on when we're going to deliver things, and the ability to influence those. And you know what, that's not dissimilar from any product managers plight anywhere in the industry. But what I was able to do is take some of those principles that are common around Ubuntu and Kubernetes and Open Stack, which by the way, are quite familiar. We use a lot of Ubuntu and Kubernetes inside of Apex, and many of our correspondents are quite familiar with those cycles, but they'd never really seen or heard of a software as a service, a SaaS vendor, using something like that. So that's what's new. >> You've got some cycles going now. You've got schedules, so just looking here, just to get this out there, 'cause I think it's data. You did it last year in October, November, mid-cycle in January of this year. You've got a couple summits coming up? >> Yeah, that's right, we've broken it down into three cycles per year, three 16-week cycles per year. So it's a little bit more frequent than the twice a year Ubuntu, not quite as frenetic as the quarterly Kubernetes cycles. 16 weeks time three is 48. That leaves us four weeks of slack, really to handle Thanksgiving and Christmas and end of year holidays, Chinese New Year, whatever might come up. I'll tell you from experience, that's always been a struggle in the Ubuntu and Open Stack and Kubernetes world, it's hard to plan around those cycles, so what we've done here is we've actually just allocated four weeks of a slush fund to take care of that. We're at three 16-week cycles per year. We version them according to the year and then an iterator. So 20A, 20B, 20C are our three cycles in 2020, and we'll do 21A, B, and C next year. Each of those cycles has three summits. So to your point about we get together, back in the before everyone stopped traveling, we very much enjoyed twice a year getting together for CUBE con. We very much enjoyed the Open Stack summits and the various Ubuntu summits. Inside of a small company like ours, these were physical. We'd get together in Dallas or New York or Chicago or Portland, which is the four places we have offices. We were doing that basically every six weeks or so for one of these summits. Now they're all virtual. We handle them over Zoom. When they were physical, we'd do the summit in about three days of packed agendas, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday. Now that we've gone to virtual, we've actually spread it a little bit thinner across the week, and so we've done, we've poked some holes in the day, which has been an interesting learning experience, and I think we're all much happier with the most recent summit we did, spreading it over the course of the week, accounting for time zones, giving ourself, everyone, lunch breaks and stuff. >> Well, we'll have to keep checking in. I want to certainly collaborate with you on the virtual digital, check your progress. We're all learning, and iterating, if you will, on the value that you can do with these digital ones. Try to get that success with physical, not always easy. Appreciate, and you're looking good, looking good and safe. Stay safe, and great to check in with you, and congratulations on the new opportunity. >> Yeah, thanks, John. >> Appreciate it. Dustin Kirkland, chief product officer at Apex Clearing. I'm John Furrier with the CUBE, checking in with a remote interview during this time when we are getting all the information of best practices on how to deal with this new at-scale, the new shift that is digital, that is impacting, and opportunities are there, certainly a lot of challenges, and hopefully, the healthcare, the finance, and the business models of these companies can continue and get back to work soon. But certainly, the people are still sheltered in place, working hard, being creative, be the coverage here in the CUBE. I'm John Furrier, thanks for watching. (bright electronic music)

>> from our studios in the heart of Silicon Valley. HOLLOWAY ALTO, California It is a cube conversation. >> Welcome to this Special Cube conversation here in Palo Alto, California at the Cube Studios at the Cube headquarters. I'm John for the host, like you were a Dustin Kirkland product manager and Google friend of the Cuban. The community with Cooper Netease been on the Cube Cube alumni. Dustin. Welcome to the Cube conversation. >> Thanks. John's a beautiful studio. I've never been in the studio and on the show floor a few times, but this is This is fun. >> Great to have you on a great opportunity to chat about Cooper Netease yet of what you do out some product man's working Google. But really more importantly on this conversation is about the fifth anniversary, the birthday of Cuba Netease. Today we're celebrating the fifth birthday of Cooper Netease. Still, it's still a >> toddler, absolutely still growing. You think about how you know Lennox has been around for a long time. Open stack has been around these other big projects that have been around for, you know, going on decades and Lenox this case and Cooper nineties. It's going so fast, but It's only five years old, you know. >> You know, I remember Adam Open Stack event in Seattle many, many years ago. That was six years ago. Pubes on his 10th year. So many of these look backs moments. This is one of them. I was having a beer with Lou Tucker. J J Kiss Matic was like one of the first comes at the time didn't make it, But we were talking about open stagger like this Cooper Netease thing. This is really hot. This paper, this initiative this could really be the abstraction layer to kind of bring all this cloud Native wasn't part of the time, but it was like more of an open stack. Try and move up to stack. And it turned out it ended up happening. Cooper Netease then went on to change the landscape of what containers did. Dr. Got a lot of credit for pioneering that got the big VC funding became a unicorn, and then containers kind of went into a different direction because of Cooper duties. >> Very much so. I mean, the modernization of software infrastructure has been coming for a long time, and Cooper nutty sort of brings it all brings it all together at this point, but putting software into a container. We've been doing that different forest for for a lot of time, uh, for a long time, but But once you have a lot of containers, what do you do with that? Right? And that was the problem that Cooper Nettie solved so eloquently and has, you know, now for a couple of years, and it just keeps getting better. >> You know, you mentioned modernization. Let's talk about that because I think the modernization the theme is now pretty much prevalent in every vertical. I'll be in D. C. Next week for the Amazon Webster was public sector Summit, where modernization of governments and nations are being discussed. Education, modernization of it. We've seen it here. The media business that were participating in is about not where you store the code. It's how you code. How you build is a mindset shift. This has been the rial revelation around the Dev Ops Movement Infrastructures Code, now called Cloud Native. Share your thoughts on this modernization mindset because it really is how you build. >> Yeah, I think the cross pollination actually across industries and we even we see that even just in the word containers, right and all the imagery around shipping and shipping containers, we've applied these age old concepts that have been I don't have perfected but certainly optimized over decades of, actually centuries or millennia of moving things across water in containers. Right. But we apply that to software and boom. We have the step function difference in the way that we we manage and we orchestrated and administer code. That's one example of that cross pollination, and now you're talking about, like optimizing optimized governments or economies but being able to maybe then apply other concepts that we've come a long way in computer science do de bop set a good example? You know, applying Dev ops principles to non computer feels. Just think about that for a second. >> It's mind blowing. And if you think about also the step function you mentioned because I think this actually changed a lot of the entrepreneurial landscape as well and also has shaped open source and, you know, big news this this quarter is map are going to shut down due one of the biggest do players. Cloudera merge with Horton Works fired their CEO, the founder Michael. So has retired, Some say forced out. I don't think so. I think it's more of his time. I'm Rodel still there. Open source is a business model, you know. Can we be the red hat for her? Duped the red? Not really kind of the viable, but it's evolving. So open source has been impacted by this step function. There's a business impact. Talk about the dynamics with step function both on the business side and on how software's built specifically open source. >> You know, you and I have been around open source for a long, long time. I think it started when I was in college in the late nineties on then through my career at IBM. And it's It's interesting how on the fringe open source was for so long and such so so much of my BM career. And then early time spent onside it at Red Hat. It was it was something that was it was different, was weird. It was. It was very much fringe where the right uh, but now it's in mainstream and it's everywhere, and it's so mainstream that it's almost the defacto standard to just start with open source. But you know, there's some other news that's been happening lately that she didn't bring up. But it's a really touchy aspect of open source right now on that's on some of the licenses and how those licenses get applied by software, especially databases. When offered as a service in the cloud. That's one of the big problems. I think that that's that we're we're working within the open >> source, summarize the news and what it means. What's what's happening? What's the news and what's the really business? Our technical impact to the licensing? What's the issue? What's the core issue? >> Yeah, eso without taking judgment any any way, shape or form on this, the the the TL D are on. This is a number of open source database is most recently cockroach D. B. I have adopted a different licensing model that is nonstandard from an open source perspective. Uh, and from one perspective, they're they're adopting these different licensing models because other vendors can take that software and offered as a service, yes, and in some some cases, like Amazon like Sure, you said, uh, and offered as a as a service, uh, and maybe contribute. Maybe pay money to the smaller startup or the open source community behind it. But not necessarily. Uh, and it's in some ways is quite threatening to open source communities and open source companies on other cases, quite empowering. And it's going to be interesting to see how that plays out. The tension between open sourcing software and eventually making money off of it is something that we've we've seen for, you know, at least 25. >> And it continues to go on today, and this is, to me a real fascinating area that I think is going to be super important to keep an eye on because you want to encourage contribution and openness. Att the same time we look at the scale of just the Lenox foundations numbers. It's pretty massive in terms of now, the open source contribution. When you factor in even China and other nations, it's it's on exponential growth, right? So is it just open source? Is the model not necessarily a business? Yeah. So this is the big question. No one knows. >> I think we crossed that. And open source is the model. Um, and this is where me is a product manager. That's worked around open source. I've spent a lot of time thinking about how to create commercial offerings around open source. I spent 10 years at Economical, the first half of which, as an engineer, the second half of which, as a product manager around, uh, about building services, commercial services around 12 And I learned quite a few things that now apply absolutely to communities as well as to a number of open source startups. That that I've advised on DH kind of given them some perspective on maybe some successful and unsuccessful ways to monetize that that opens. >> Okay, so doesn't talk about Let's get back to Coburg. And so I think this is the next level Talk track is as Cooper Netease has established itself and landed in the industry and has adoption. It's now an expansion votes the land adopted expand. We've seen adoption. Now it's an expansion mode. Where does it go from here? Because you look at the tale signs things like service meshes server. Listen, you get some interesting trends that going to support this expansionary stage of uber netease. What is your view about the next expansion everyway what >> comes next? Yeah, I I think I think the next stage is really about democratizing communities for workloads that you know. It's quite obvious where when communities is the right answer at the scale of a Google or a Twitter or Netflix or, you know, some of these massive services that it is obviously and clearly the best answer to orchestrating containers. Now I think the next question is, how does that same thing that works at that massive scale Also worked for me as a developer at a very small scale helped me develop my software. My small team of five or 10 people. Do I need a coup? Burnett. He's If I'm ah five or 10 person startup. Well, I mean, not the original sort of borde vision of communities. It's probably overkill, but actually the tooling has really advanced, and we now >> have >> communities that makes sense on very small scales. You've got things like a three s from from Rancher. You've got micro Kates from from my colleagues at economical other ways of making shrinking communities down to something that fits, perhaps on devices perhaps at the edge, beyond just the traditional data center and into remote locations that need to deploy manage applications >> on the Cooper Netease clustering the some of the tech side. You know, we've seen some great tech trends as mentioned in Claudia Horton. Works and map Our Let's Take Claudia and Horton work. Remember back in the old days when it was booming? Oh, they were so proud to talk about their clusters. I stood up all these clusters and then I would ask them, Well, what do you doing with it? Well, we're storing data. I think so. That became kind of this use case where standing up the cluster was the use case and they're like, OK, now let's put some data in it. It's a question for you is Coburn. Eddie's a little bit different. I'm not seeing they were seeing real use cases. What are people standing up? Cuban is clusters for what specific Besides the same Besides saying I've done it. Yeah, What's the what's the main use case that you're seeing this that has real value? >> Yeah, actually, there's you just jog t mind of really funny memory. You know, back in those big data days, I was CEO of a startup. We were encrypting data, and we were helping encrypt healthcare data for health care companies and the number of health care companies that I worked with at that time who said they had a big data problem and they had all of I don't know, 33 terabytes worth of worth of data that they needed to encrypt. It was kind of humorous sometimes like, Is that really a big, big data problem? This fits on a single disc, you know, Uh, but yeah, I mean, it's interesting how >> that the hype of of the tech was preceding. The reality needs needs, says Cooper Nettie. So I have a Cuban Eddie's cluster for blank. Fill in the blank. What are people saying? >> Yeah, uh, it's It's largely about the modernization. So I need to modernize my infrastructure. I'm going to adopt the platform. That's probably not, er, the old er job, a Web WebSphere type platform or something like that. I'm investing in hardware investing in Software Middle, where I'm investing in people, and I want all of those things to line up with where industry is going from a software perspective, and that's where Cooper Nighties is sort of the cornerstone piece of that Lennox Of course, that's That's pretty well established >> canoes delivery in an integration piece of is that the pipeline in was, that was the fit on the low hanging fruit use cases of Cooper Netease just development >> process. Or it's the operations it's the operations of now got software that I need to deploy across multiple versions, perhaps multiple sites. Uh, I need to handle that upgrade ideally without downtime in a way that you said service mash in a way that meshes together makes sense. I've got a roll out new certificates I need to address the security, vulnerability, thes air, all the things that Cooper and I used to such a better job at then, what people were doing previously, which was a whole lot of four loops, shell strips and sshh pushing, uh, pushing tar balls around. Maybe Debs or rpm's around. That is what Cooper not he's actually really solves and does an elegant job of solving as just a starting point. And that's just the beginning and, you know, without getting ve injury here, you know, Anthros is the thing that we had at Google have built around Cooper Netease that brings it to enterprise >> here the other day did a tweet. I called Anthem. I just typing too fast. I got a lot of crap on Twitter for that mission. And those multi cloud has been a big part of where Cubans seems to fit. You mentioned some of the licensing changes. Cloud has been a great resource for a lot of the new Web scale applications from all kinds of companies. Now, with several issues seeing a lot more than capabilities, how do you see the next shift with data State coming in? Because God stateless date and you got state full data. Yeah, this has become a conversation point. >> Yeah, I think Kelsey Hightower has said it pretty eloquently, as he usually does around the sort of the serval ist movement and lets lets developers focus on just their code and literally just their code, perhaps even just their function in just their piece of code, without having to be an expert on all of the turtles all the way, all the way down. That's the big difference about service have having written a couple of those functions. I can I can really invest my time on the couple of 100 lines of code that matter and not choosing a destro choosing a cougar Nati is choosing, you know, all the stack underneath. I simply choose the platform where I'm gonna drop that that function, compile it, uploaded and then riff and rub. On that >> fifth anniversary, Cooper Netease were riffing on Cooper Netease. Dustin Circle here inside the Cube Cube Alumni you were recently at the coop con in overseas in Europe, Barcelona, Barcelona, great city. Keeps been there many times. Do was there covering for us. Couldn't make this trip, Unfortunately, had a couple daughter's graduating, so I didn't make the trip. Sorry, guys. Um, what was the summary? What was the takeaway? Was the big walk away from that event? What synthesized? The main stories were the most important stories being >> told. >> Big news, big observations. >> It was a huge event to start with. It was that fear of Barcelona. Um, didn't take over the whole space. But I've been there a number of times from Mobile World Congress. But, you know, this is this is cube con in the same building that hosts all of mobile world Congress. So I think 8,000 attendees was what we saw. It's quite celebratory. You know, I think we were doing some some pre fifth birthday bash celebrations, Key takeaways, hybrid hybrid, Cloud, multi Cloud. I think that's the world that we've evolved into. You know, there was a lot of tension. I think in the early days about must stay on. Prem must go to the cloud. Everything's there's gonna be a winner and a loser and everything's gonna go one direction or another. I think the chips have fallen, and it's pretty obvious now that the world will exist in a very hybrid, multi cloud state. Ultimately, there's gonna be some stuff on Prem that doesn't move. There's going to be some stuff better hosted in one arm or public clouds. That's the multi cloud aspect, Uh, and there will be stubborn stuff at the edge and remote locations and vehicles on oil rigs at restaurants and stores and >> so forth. What's most exciting from a trans statement? What do you what? What's what's getting you excited from what you see on the landscape out there? >> So the tying all of that to Cooper Netease, Cuban aunties, is the thing that basically normalizes all of that. You write your application put it in a container and expect to communities to be there to scale that toe. Operate that top grade that to migrate that over time. From that perspective, Cooper nineties has really ticked, ticked all the boxes, and you've got a lot of choices now about which companies here, you're going to use it and where >> beyond communities, a lot of variety of projects coop flow, you got service messes out there a lot of difference. Project. What's What's a dark horse? What's something that sets out there that people should be paying attention to? That you see emerging? That's notable. That should be paying attention. To >> think is a combination of two things. One is pretty obvious, and that's a ML is coming like a freight train and is sort of the next layer of excitement. I think after Cooper, Netease becomes boring, which hopefully if we've done our jobs well, that communities layer gets settled and we'll evolve. But the sort of the hockey stick hopefully settles down and it becomes something super stable. Uh, the application of machine learning to create artificial intelligence conclusions, trends from things that is sort of the next big trend on then I would say another one If you really want the dark horse. I think it's around communications. And I think it's around the difference in the way that we communicate with one another across all forms of media voice, video chat, writing, how we interact with people, how we interact with our our tools with our software and in fact, how our software in Iraq's with us in our software acts with with other software that communications industry is, it's ripe for some pretty radical disruption. And you know some of the organizations and they're doing that. It's early early days on those >> changes. Final point you mentioned earlier in our conversation here about how Dev Ops is influencing impacting non tech and computer science. Really? What did you mean by that? >> Uh, well, I think you brought up unexpectedly and that that you were looking at the way Uh, some other industries are changing, and I think that cross pollination is actually quite quite powerful when you take and apply a skill and expertise you have outside of your industry. But it adds something new and interesting, too, to your professional environment. That's where you get these provocative operations. He's really creative, innovative things that you know. No one really saw it coming. >> Dave Ops principles apply to other disciplines. Yeah, agility. That's that's pointing down waterfall based processes. That's >> one phenomenal example. Imagine that for governments, right to remove some of the like the pain that you and I know. I've got to go and renew my license. My birthday's coming up. I gotta go to renew my driver's license. You know much. I'm dreading going to the the DMV Root >> Canal driver's license on the same. Exactly >> how waterfall is that experience. And could we could we beam or Mohr Agile More Dev Autopsy and some of our government across >> the U. S. Government's procurement practices airbase upon 1990 standards they still want Request a manual, a physical manual for every product violent? Who does that? >> I know that there are organizations trying to apply some open source principles to government. But I mean, think about, you know, just democracy and how being a little bit more open and transparent in the way that we are in open source code, the ability to accept patches. I have a side project, a passion for brewing beer and I love applying open source practices to the industry of brewing. And that's an example of where use professional work, Tio. Compliment a hobby. >> All right, we got to bring some cubic private label, some Q beer. >> If you like sour beer, I'm in the sour beer. >> That's okay. We like to get the pus for us. Final question for you. Five years from now, Cooper needs to be 10 years old. What's the world gonna look like when we wake up five years from now with two Cuban aunties? >> Yeah, I think, uh, I don't think we're struggling with the Cooper nutties. Uh, the community's layer. At that point, I think that's settled science, inasmuch as Lennox is pretty settled. Science, Yes, there's a release, and it comes out with incremental features and bug fixes. I think Cuban aunties is settled. Science management of of those containers is pretty well settled. Uh, five years from now, I think we end up with software, some software that that's writing software. And I don't quite mean that in the way That sounds scary, uh, and that we're eliminating developers, but I think we're creating Mohr powerful, more robust software that actually creates that that software and that's all built on top of the really strong, robust systems we have underneath >> automation to take the heavy lifting. But the human creation still keeping one of the >> humans Aaron the look it's were We're many decades away from humans being out of the loop on creative processes. >> Dustin Kirkland, he a product manager of Google Uh, Cooper Netease guru also keep alumni here in the studio talking about the coup. Burnett. He's 50 year anniversary. Of course, the kid was president creation during the beginning of the wave of communities. We love the trend we love Cloud would left home a tec. I'm Sean for here in Palo Alto. Thanks for watching.

>> Announcer: Live from Austin, Texas, it's theCUBE. Covering KubeCon and CloudNativeCon 2017. Brought to you by: Red Hat, the Linux Foundation, and theCUBE's ecosystem partners. >> Hey, welcome back everyone. And we're live here in Austin, Texas. This is theCUBE's exclusive coverage of the Cloud Native conference and KubeCon for Kubernetes Conference. This is for the Linux Foundation. This is theCUBE. I'm John Furrier, the co-founder of Silicon ANGLE Media. My co, Stu Miniman. Our next guest is Dustin Kirkland Vice-President of product. The Ubuntu, Canonical, welcome to theCUBE. >> Thank you, John. >> So you're the product guy. You get the keys to the kingdom, as they would say in the product circles. Man, what a best time to be-- >> Dustin: They always say that. I don't think I've heard that one. >> Well, the product guys are, well all the action's happening on the product side. >> Dustin: We're right in the middle of it. >> Cause you got to have a road map. You got to have a 20 mile steer on the next horizon while you go up into the pasture and deliver value, but you always got to be watching for it always making decision on what to do, when to ship product, not you got the Cloud things are happening at a very accelerated rate. And then you got to bring it out to the customers. >> That's right. >> You're livin' on both sides of the world You got to look inside, you got to look outside. >> All three. There's the marketing angle too. which is what we're doing here right now. So there's engineering sales and this is the marketing. >> Alright so where are we with this? Because now you guys have always been on the front lines of open source. Great track record. Everyone knows the history there. What are the new things? What's the big aha moment that this event, largest they've had ever. They're not even three years old. Why is this happening? >> I love seeing these events in my hometown Austin, Texas. So I hope we keep coming back. The aha moment is how application development is fundamentally changing. Cloud Native is the title of the Cloud Native Computing Foundation and CloudNativeConference here. What does Cloud Native mean? It's a different form of writing applications. Just before we were talking about systems programing right? That's not exactly Cloud Native. Cloud Native programming is writing to API's that are Cloud exposed API's, integrating with software as a service. Creating applications that have no intelligence, whatsoever, about what's underneath them, Right? But taking advantage of that and all the ways that you would want and expect in a modern application. Fault tolerance, automatic updates, hyper security. Just security, security, security. That is the aha moment. The way applications are being developed is fundamentally changing. >> Interesting perspective we had on earlier. Lew Tucker from Cisco, (mumbles) in the (mumbles) History Museum, CTO at Cisco, and we have Kelsey Hightower co-chair for this conference and also very active in the community. Yet, in the perspective, and I'll over simplify and generalize it, but basically was: Hey, that's been going on for 30 years, it's just different now. Tell us the old way and new way. Because the old way, you kind of describing it you're going to build your own stuff, full stack, building all parts of the stack and do a lot of stuff that you didn't want to do. And now you have more, especially time on your hands if DevOps and infrastructure as code starts to happen. But doesn't mean that networking goes away, doesn't mean storage goes away, that some new lines are forming. Describe that dynamic of what's new and the new way what changes from the old way? >> Virtualization has brought about a different way of thinking about resources. Be those compute resources, chopping CPU's up into virtual CPU's, that's KVM ware. You mentioned network and storage. Now we virtualized both of those into software defined storage and software defined networking, right? We have things like OpenStack that brings that all together from an infrastructure perspective. and we now have Kubernetes that brings that to fare from an application perspective. Kubernetes helps you think about applications in a different way. I said that paradigm has changed. It's Kubernetes that helps implement that paradigm. So that developers can write an application to a container orchestrator like Kubernetes and take advantage of many of the advances we've made below that layer in the operating system and in the Cloud itself. So from that perspective the game has changed and the way you write your application is not the same as a the monolithic app we might have written on an IBM or a traditional system. >> Dustin, you say monolithic app versus oh my gosh the multi layered cake that we have today. We were talking about the keynote this morning where CNCF went from four projects to 14 projects, you got Kubernetes, You got things like DSDU on top. Help up tease that a little bit. What are the ones that, where's canonical engaged? What are you hearing from customers? What are they excited about? What are they still looking for? >> In a somewhat self-serving way, I'll use this opportunity to explain exactly what we do in helping build that layered cake. It starts with the OS. We provide a great operating system, Ubuntu that every developer would certainly know and understand and appreciate. That's the kernel, that's the systemd, that's the hyperviser, that's all the storage and drivers that makes an operating system work well on hardware. Lot's of hardware, IBM, Dell HP, Intel, all the rest. As well as in virtual machines, the public Clouds, Microsoft, Amazon, Google, VM ware and others. So, we take care of that operating system perspective. Within the CNCF and within in the Kubernetes ecosystem, It really starts with the Kubernetes distribution. So we provide a Kubernetes distribution, we call it Canonicals Distribution of Kubernetes, CDK. Which is open source Kubernetes with security patches applied. That's it. No special sauce, no extra proprietary extensions. It is open source Kubernetes. The reference platform for open source Kubernetes 100% conformed. Now, once you have Kubernetes as you say, "What are you hearing from customers?" We hear a lot of customers who want a Kubernetes. Once they have a Kubernetes, the next question is: "Now what do I do with it?" If they have applications that their developers have been writing to Google's Kubernetes Engine GKE, or Amazon's Kubernetes Engine, the new one announced last week at re:Invent, AKS. Or Microsoft's Kubernetes Engine, Microsoft-- >> Microsoft's AKS, Amazons EKS. A lot of TLA's out there, always. >> Thank you for the TLA dissection. If you've written the applications already having your own Kubernetes is great, because then your applications simply port and run on that. And we help customers get there. However, if you haven't written your first application, that's where actually, most of the industry is today. They want a Kubernetes, but they're not sure why. So, to that end, we're helping bring some of the interesting workloads that exists, open source workloads and putting those on top of Canonical Kubernetes. Yesterday, we press released a new product from Canonical, launched in conjunction with our partners at Rancher Labs, Which is the Cloud Native platform. The Cloud Native platform is Ubuntu plus Kubernetes plus Rancher. That combination, we've heard from customers and from users of Ubuntu inside and out. Everyone's interested in a developer work flow that includes open-source Ubuntu, open-source Kubernetes and open-source Rancher, Which really accelerates the velocity of development. And that end solution provides exactly that and it helps populate, that Kubernetes with really interesting workloads. >> Dustin, so we know Sheng, Shannon and the team, they know a thing or two about building stacks with open source. We've talked with you many times, OpenStack. Give us a little bit of compare and contrast, what we've been doing with OpenStack with Canonical, very heavily involved, doing great there versus the Cloud Native stacking. >> If you know Shannon and Sheng, I think you can understand and appreciate why Mark, myself and the rest of the Canonical team are really excited about this partnership. We really see eye-to-eye on open source principles First. Deliver great open source experiences first. And then taking that to market with a product that revolves around support. Ultimately, developer option up front is what's important, and some of those developer applications will make its way into production in a mission critical sense. Which open up support opportunities for both of us. And we certainly see eye-to-eye from that perspective. What we bring to bare is Ubuntu ecosystem of developers. The Ubuntu OpenStack infrastructure is a service where we've seen many of the world's largest organizations deploying their OpenStacks. Doing so on Ubuntu and with Ubuntu OpenStacks. With the launch of Kubernetes and Canonical Kubernetes, many of those same organizations are running their own Kubernetes along side OpenStack. Or, in some cases, on top of OpenStack. In a very few cases, instead of Openstack, in very special cases, often at the Edge or in certain tiny Cloud or micro Cloud scenarios. In all of these we see Rancher as a really, really good partner in helping to accelerate that developer work flow. Enabling developers to write code, commit code to GitHub repository, with full GitHub integration. Authenticate against an active directory with full RBAC controls. Everything that you would need in an enterprise to bring that application to bare from concept, to development, to test into production, and then the life cycle, once it gains its own life in production. >> What about the impact of customers? So, I'm an IT guy or I'm an architect and man, all this new stuff's comin' at me. I love my open source, I'm happy with space. I don't want to touch it, don't want to break it, but I want to innovate. This whole world can be a little bit noisy and new to them. How do you have that conversation with that potential customer or customer where you say, Look, we can get there. Use your app team here's what you want to shape up to be, here's service meshes and plugable, Whoa plugable (mumbles)! So, again, how do you simplify that when you have conversations? What's the narrative? What's the conversation like? >> Usually our introduction into the organization of a Fortune 500 company is by the developers inside of that company who already know Ubuntu. Who already have some experience with Kubernetes or have some experience with Rancher or any of those other-- >> So it's a bottoms up? >> Yeah, it's bottoms up. Absolutely, absolutely. The developer network around Ubuntu is far bigger than the organization that is Canonical. So that helps us with the intro. Once we're in there, and the developers write those first few apps, we do get the introductions to their IT director who then wants that comfy blanket. Customer support, maybe 24 by seven-- >> What's the experience like? Is it like going to the airport, go through TSA, and you got to take your shoes off, take your belt off. What kind of inspection, what is kind of is the culture because they want to move fast, but they got to be sure. There's always been the challenge when you have the internal advocate saying, "Look, if we want to go this way "this is going to be more the reality for companies." Developers are now major influencers. Not just some, here's the product we made a decision and they ship it to 'em, it's shifted. >> If there's one thing that I've learned in this sort of product management assignment, I'm a engineer by trade, but as a product manager now for almost five years, is that you really have to look at the different verticals and some verticals move at vastly different paces than other verticals. When we are in the tele close phase, We're in RFI's, requests for a quote or a request for information that may last months, nine months. And then go through entering into a procurement process that may last another nine months. And we're talking about 18 months in an industry here that is spinning up, we're talking about how fast this goes, which is vastly different than the work we do in Silicon Valley, right? With some of the largest dot-coms in the world that are built on Ubuntu, maybe an AWS or else where. Their adoption curve is significantly different and the procurement angle is really different. What they're looking to buy often on the US West Coast is not so much support, but they're looking to guide your roadmap. We offer for customers of that size and scale a different set of products something we call feature sponsorships, where those customers are less interested in 24 by seven telephone support and far more interested in sponsoring certain features into Ubuntu itself and helping drive the Ubuntu roadmap. We offer both of those a products and different verticals buy in different ways. We talked to media and entertainment, and the conversation's completely different. Oil and gas, conversation's completely different. >> So what are you doing here? What's the big effort at CloudNativeCon? >> So we've got a great booth and we're talking about Ubuntu as a pretty universal platform for almost anything you're doing in the Cloud. Whether that's on frame infrastructure as a service, OpenStack. People can coo coo OpenStack and point OpenStack versus Kubernetes against one another. We cannot see it more differently-- >> Well no I think it's more that it's got clarity on where the community's lines are because apps guys are moving off OpenStack that's natural. It's really found the home, OpenStack very relevant huge production flow, I talk to Johnathon Bryce about this all the time. There's no co cooing OpenStack. It's not like it's hurting. Just to clarify OpenStack is not going anywhere its just that there's been some comments about OpenStack refugees going to (mumbles), but they're going there anyway! Do you agree? >> Yeah I agree, and that choice is there on Ubuntu. So infrastructure is a service, OpenStack's a fantastic platform, platforms as a service or Cloud Native through Cloud Native development Kubernetes is an excellent platform. We see those running side by side. Two racks a systems or a single rack. Half of those machines are OpenStack, Half of those are Kubernetes and the same IT department manages both. We see IT departments that are all in OpenStack. Their entire data center is OpenStack. And we see Kubernetes as one workload inside of that Openstack. >> How do you see Kubernetes impact on containers? A lot of people are coo cooing containers. But they're not going anywhere either. >> It's fundamental. >> The ecosystem's changing, certainly the roles of each part (mumbles) is exploding. How do you talk about that? What's your opinion on how containers are evolving? >> Containers are evolving, but they've been around for a very long time as well. Kubernetes has helped make containers consumable. And doctored to an extent, before that the work we've done around Linux containers LXE LEXT as well. All of those technologies are fundamental to it and it take tight integration with the OS. >> Dustin, so I'm curious. One of the big challenges I have the U face is the proliferation of deployments for customers. It's not just data center or even Cloud. Edge is now a very big piece of it. How do you think that containers helps enable the little bit of that Cloud Native goes there, but what kind of stresses does that put on your product organization? >> Containers are adding fuel to the fire on both the Edge and the back end Cloud. What's exciting to me about the Edge is that every Edge device, every connected device is connected to something. What's it connected to, a Cloud somewhere. And that can be an OpenStack Cloud or a Kubernetes Cloud, that can be a public Cloud, that could be a private implementation of that Cloud. But every connected device, whether its a car or a plane or a train or a printer or a drone it's connected to something, it's connected to a bunch of services. We see containers being deployed on Ubuntu on those Edge devices, as the packaging format, as the application format, as the multi-tendency layer that keeps one application from DOSing or attacking or being protected from another application on that Edge device. We also see containers running the micro services in the Cloud on Ubuntu there as well. The Edge to me, is extremely interesting in how it ties back to the Cloud and to be transparent here, Canonical strategy and Canonical's play is actually quiet strong here with Ubuntu providing quite a bit of consistency across those two layers. So developers working on those applications on those devices, are often sitting right next to the developers working on those applications in the Cloud and both of them are seeing Ubuntu helping them go faster. >> Bottom line, where do you see the industry going and how do you guys fit into the next three years, what's your prediction? >> I'm going to go right back to what I was saying right there. That the connection between the Edge and the Cloud is our angle right there, and there is nothing that's stopping that right now. >> We were just talking with Joe Beda and our view is if it's a shoot and computing world, everything's an Edge. >> Yeah, that's right. That's exactly right. >> (mumbles) is an Edge. A light in a house is an Edge with a processor in it. >> So I think the data centers are getting smarter. You wanted a prediction for next year: The data center is getting smarter. We're seeing autonomous data centers. We see data centers using metals as a service mask to automatically provision those systems and manage those systems in a way that hardware look like a Cloud. >> AI and IOT, certainly two topics that are really hot trends that are very relevant as changing storage and networking those industries have to transform. Amazon's tele (mumbles), everything like LAN and serverless, you're starting to see the infrastructure as code take shape. >> And that's what sits on top of Kubernetes. That's what's driving Kubernetes adoption are those AI machine learning artificial intelligence workloads. A lot of media and transcoding workloads are taking advantage of Kubernetes everyday. >> Bottom line, that's software. Good software, smart software. Dustin, Thanks so much for coming theCube. We really appreciate it. Congratulations. Continued developer success. Good to have a great ecosystem. You guys have been successful for a very long time. As the world continues to be democratized with software as it gets smarter more pervasive and Cloud computing, grid computing, Unigrid. Whatever it's called it is all done by software and the Cloud. Thanks for coming on. It's theCube live coverage from Austin, Texas, here at KubeCon and CloudNativeCon 2017. I'm John Furrier, Stu Miniman, We'll be back with more after this short break. (lively music)

>> Narrator: Live from Las Vegas, it's theCUBE covering AWS re:Invent 2017 presented by AWS, Intel, and our ecosystem of partners. >> We are life back here in Las Vegas at the Sands Expo as we continue our coverage here on theCUBE of re:Invent, AWS here on the fourth day of what has been a very successful show. I still hear a lot of buzz, a lot of activity on the show floor. It certainly indicative of what happened here in terms of bringing this community together in a very positive way. I'm with Justin Warren, I'm John Walls. We go from Justin to Dustin, Dustin Kirkland, who is the vice president of product development for Ubuntu on the Canonical. It's good to see you again. >> Likewise, John. >> I should let the two of you probably chat about Australia. We heard these great diving stories about your adventures, your home, your native country. >> Yep. >> Maybe afterwards will get a little photos, travel thing going on. >> Yeah that's right. (laughing) >> All right, 17 years you have been diving. Were going to have to get into that a little bit later on. First off, let's talk about Ubuntu, and maybe the footprint within AWS. Maybe not only what brings you here, but what gets you there? What are you doing there? >> First of all, this is a fantastic conference. Hundreds of these organizations here are involved in Ubuntu, using Ubuntu in AWS and taking advantage of open source, using it for lots of scale out services. To date this year in 2017, over 125 million instances of Ubuntu have launched in AWS alone just this year, and the year is not even over yet. We see anything from media entertainment. Netflix is here. I spent some time with them. One of Netflix's performance engineers gave a talk yesterday about how Netflix tunes their Ubuntu instances in Amazon to the tune of 100,000 instances of Ubuntu running in Amazon to deliver the Netflix experience that I'm sure all of us have. >> John: 100,000? >> Yeah. >> That's amazing. >> It's crazy, yeah. >> I'm a big fan of Ubuntu because I am a mad person. I've been running it as my primary desktop for something like 10 years. >> All right! >> I run it on a laptop. >> Okay. >> I love it, it's great. >> Good. >> People use Ubuntu all the time but it's like it just became the de facto, it seems like overnight of pretty much, hey, if you want to run Linux in cloud, you just spin up in Ubuntu. Just run it up, so what is it about Ubuntu itself, where are you taking the product for people who are using it in cloud? We are hearing a lot about all these different services, and we are hearing about serverless, so how does Ubuntu fit into that AWS world? >> That's a great question. First of all, it's not overnight. We have been doing this since 2004, so we are going on 14 years of building the thing that is Ubuntu. We brought Ubuntu into Amazon in about 2008, which is right when I got involved at Canonical. I was working on Ubuntu before that, but working for Canonical, and that was relatively early in the entire Amazon adventure. You said Ubuntu on the desktop. That's certainly where Ubuntu got its start, but it was Amazon that really busted Ubuntu out into the server space, and so now as you said, if you are starting a new company or a new technology, you almost by default start on Ubuntu. Now where are we taking that? Here we are talking about cloud, but the other half of cloud is the edge. The edge being embedded devices, embedded IOT connected devices. The thing about every IOT device, the I in IOT is Internet. The connected part of a connected device means it has to be connected to something, and what is going to be connected to? The cloud. Every smart autonomous driving vehicle, every oil rig out in West Texas, every airplane, every boat, every ship, every place where you are going to find compute in these next couple of years as we move into the 5G revolution, are connected to services on the backend, the majority of those hosted in Amazon, and the majority of those running Ubuntu. >> When you talk about IOT though, what kind of challenges that that bring into your world? Because you are talking about this, I mean, I can't even think about the order of growth. >> Yeah, billions, literally billions. >> It's just massive connectivity, and in a mobile environment, throw that on top of that, so what does that do for you then in terms of what you are looking at down the road and the kind of capabilities that you have got to build in? >> Security, I mean it starts with security. When we think about devices in our homes accompanying our kids to school, devices that are inside of buses and hospitals, it's all about security, and security is first and foremost. We put a lot of effort into securing Ubuntu. We've created new features as part of where we are taking Ubuntu. Many of the new features we created around Ubuntu are about updates, security updates, being able to make those updates active without rebooting the system, so zero downtime kernel updates is something we call a live patch service which we deliver in Amazon for Ubuntu Amazon users. Extended security maintenance. Security for Ubuntu after end-of-life, say you said you've been using Ubuntu for a long time. Each Ubuntu release has basically a five year lifecycle but some enterprises actually need to run Ubuntu for much longer than five years, and for those enterprises, we provide security updates after the end of life, after that five-year end-of-life, and in many cases, that helps them bridge that gap until the next release of Ubuntu. We've also worked with IBM and the US government to provide FIPS certified cryptography for Ubuntu also available in Amazon, so the Department of Defense contractors, many federal contractors are required to use FIPS bits, and this actually allows them to bring their Ubuntu usage into compliance with what's required for government regulation. >> I'm so glad that you went from IOT to security in, like, a nanosecond. That was going to be my next question. >> Well that is the only answer to that. It's the only right answer to that question in my mind. >> Not enough companies put that much focus on security and you follow it up with specific concrete examples of things that are going to work. The live kernel patching without rebooting things so that you can have the-- I mean, services in the cloud, it has to be always on. You can't take a maintenance window when something is down four hours or a weekend. That's just not acceptable in the cloud world anymore. >> Especially in the retail season. We are just now getting into the retail-- you know, Black Friday was last week, Cyber Monday this week, and the roll up all the way to Christmas, Canonical works with quite a bit with the largest retailers in the world, Walmart, Best Buy, other ones like that, and downtime is just not acceptable. At the same time, security is of the utmost importance. When you are taking people's credit cards, you are placing large amounts of money on the line every time these transactions take place. Security has to be utmost, and being able to do that without impacting the downtime. Downtime is seriously hundreds of thousands of dollars per second on some of these sites during the major holiday rush. >> You just mentioned some of the big names you're working with, so what kind of assurance can you give them that you can sleep with both eyes closed? You don't have to keep that one eye open. Don't worry, if there is an incident of some kind, we are going to take care of it. If you have a problem, rest assured, we are going to be there because, as you pointed out, with the volume involved and the issues of security infiltrations being what they are today, it's hard to rest. >> Right, the return on value, the return on investment of the live patch is easily apparent. Any time someone does the math and realizes, "Let's actually look at how much it costs us "to reboot a data center, "or how much it costs us to wake up the dev ops team "on a Saturday and have them work through a weekend "to roll out this update," whereas with the live patch, at least the patch is applied in milliseconds without downtime, and then we get back on Monday and we rollout a comprehensive plan as to what do we actually need to do about this going forward? That is for the kernel side of things. The other half of it is the user space side of Ubuntu. In the user space side of Ubuntu, we continue to make Ubuntu smaller, smaller and smaller. That might be one of the reasons you are attracted to Ubuntu on your laptop early on is because we really did a good job of making a Linux that was consumable, usable, but also very small and secure. We've actually taken that same approach in the cloud where we continue to minimize the footprint of Ubuntu. That has a security impact in that if you simply leave software out of the default image you are not vulnerable to problems in that software, so we've heard that quite a bit around the container space, the work we do in the container space. We will be in Austin next week for CUBE Con talking about containers. I will save the container talk for next week, but minimizing Ubuntu is an important of that security story as well. >> All right, just reducing that attack surface is fabulous. It also means that when you are actually doing this patching, it's less things to patch, there are less opportunities for downtime, there are less things that can go wrong and cause outages in the rest of the place. Simple is better. >> Dustin : That's right, that's exactly right. >> What else are you doing? We've talked about security a lot here. What are some of the other things that you are doing around supporting the services that we are hearing here at AWS? We've heard a lot about things like serverless. We've heard a lot about high performance computing. We've had guests here on theCUBE talking about what they are doing around data analytics and machine learning, so maybe you could give us a little bit of color around that. >> Let's start with that last point, machine learning and data analytics. We work very closely with both Amazon and Nvidia to enable the GPGPUs, the general-purpose graphics processing units that Nvidia produces which go into servers and Amazon exposes in the some of the largest machine learning type instances. Those instances powered by Ubuntu are working directly with that GPU out of the box by default, and that's something that we've worked very hard on and closely with both Amazon and Nvidia to make sure the Ubuntu experience when using the graphics accelerated instance types just work, and just work out of the box. Those are important for the machine learning and the data analytics because many of those algorithms take advantage of CUDA. CUDA is a set of libraries that allows developers to write applications that scale very, very wide across the CUDA cores, so a given Nvidia GPU may have several thousand Nvidia CUDA cores. Each of those are running little process bits and then the answers are summed up, basically, at the end. That is at the heart of everything that's happening in the AI space, and that I will tie that back to our IOT space in that for those connected devices where memory discs, CPU, power are very constrained, part of the important part of that connection is that they are talking to a cloud that has essentially infinite resources, infinite data at its disposal, enough memory to load those entire data sets and crunch those. The fastest CPUs and the fastest GPUs that can crunch that data, so to really take that and make that real, that's exactly what's powering every autonomous vehicle in the world, essentially, is a little unit inside of the car, a majority of those autonomous vehicles are running Ubuntu on the auto driving unit. Tesla, Google, Uber, all running Ubuntu inside of that car. Every one of those cars are talking to a cloud. Some clouds are Amazon, other, in Google's case, certainly the Google cloud, but they are talking to GPU Nvidia powered AI instances that are crunching all the data that these Tesla cars and GM, and Ford cars are sending to the cloud and constantly making the inference engine better. What gets downloaded to the car is an updated inference engine. That inference engine comes down to the car, and that's how that car decides is it safe to change lanes right now or not? That answer has to be determined inside of the car, not in the cloud, but you can understand why data training and modeling in the cloud is powerful, far more powerful than what can happen inside of a little CPU in a the car. >> John: Let's just keep it on the right side of the road. Can we do that? (laughing) >> Well, you need to talk to this gentleman about that. >> Yeah, I drive on the left side. (laughing) >> Or the left side of the road. >> Don't cross the streams. >> How about the correct side of the road? >> Don't cross the streams. >> Dustin thanks for the time. >> Thank you, John. >> Always good seeing you. >> Likewise. >> And we'll see you next week as well. Down in your hometown, a little barbecue in Austin. >> That sounds good. >> All right, back with more here at re:Invent. We are live in Las Vegas back with more on theCUBE in just a bit.

>> Announcer: Live from Manhattan, it's theCube, covering AWS Summit, New York City, 2017. Brought to you by Amazon Web Services. >> Welcome back to the Big Apple as we continue our coverage here on theCube of AWS Summit 2017. We're at the Javits Center. We're in midtown. A lot of hustle and bustle outsie and inside there, good buzz on the show floor with about 5,000 strong attending and some 20,000 registrants also for today's show. Along with Stu Miniman, I'm John Walls, and glad to have you here on theCube. And Dustin Kirkland now joins us. He's at Ubuntu, the product and strategy side of things at Canonical, and Dustin, good to see you back on theCube. >> Thank you very much. >> You just threw a big number out at us when we were talking off camera. I'll let you take it from there, but it shows you about the presence, you might say, of Ubuntu and AWS, what that nexus is right now. >> Ubuntu easily leads as the operating system in Amazon. About 70%, seven zero, 70% of all instances running in Amazon right now are running Ubuntu. And that's actually, despite the fact that Amazon have their own Amazon Linux and there are other, Windows, Rails, SUSE, Debian, Fedora, other alternatives. Ubuntu still represents seven out of 10 workloads in Amazon running right now. >> John: Huge number. >> So, Dustin, maybe give us a little insight as to what kind of workloads you're seeing. How much of this was people that, Ubuntu has a great footprint everywhere and therefore it kind of moved there. And how much of it is new and interesting things, IOT and machine learning and everything like that, where you also have support. >> When you're talking about that many instances, that's quite a bit of boat, right? So if you look at just EC2 and the two types of workloads, there are the long-running workloads. The workloads that are up for many months, years in some cases. I met a number of customers here this week that are running older versions of Ubuntu like 12.04 which are actually end of life, but as a customer of Canonical we continue providing security updates. So we have a product called Extended Security Maintenance. There's over a million instances of Ubuntu 12.04 which are already end of life but Canonical can continue providing security updates, critical security updates. That's great for the long-running workloads. The other thing that we do for long-running workloads are kernel live patches. So we're able to actually fix vulnerabilities in the Linux kernel without rebooting, using entirely upstream and open source technology to do that. So for those workloads that stay up for months or years, the combination of Extended Security Maintenance, covering it for a very long time, and the kernel live patch, ensuring that you're able to patch those vulnerabilities without rebooting those systems, it's great for hosting providers and some enterprise workloads. Now on the flip side, you also see a lot of workloads that are spikey, right. Workloads that come and go in bursts. Maybe they run at night or in the morning or just whenever an event happens. We see a lot of Ubuntu running there. It's really, a lot of that is focused on data and machine learning, artificial intelligence workloads, that run in that sort of bursty manner. >> Okay, so it was interesting, when I hear you talk about some things that have been running for a bunch of years, and on the other side of the spectrum is serverless and the new machine learning stuff where it tends to be there, what's Canonical doing there? What kind of exciting, any of the news, Macey, Glue, some of these other ones that came out, how much do those fit into the conversations you're having? >> Sure, they all really fit. When we talk about what we're doing to tune Ubuntu for those machine learning workloads, it really starts with the kernel. So we actually have an AWS-optimized Linux kernel. So we've taken the Ubuntu Linux kernel and we've tuned it, working with the Amazon kernel engineers, to ensure that we've carved out everything in that kernel that's not relevant inside of an Amazon data center and taken it out. And in doing so, we've actually made the kernel 15% smaller, which actually reduces the security footprint and the storage footprint of that kernel. And that means smaller downloads, smaller updates, and we've made it boot 30% faster. We've done that by adding support, turning on, configuring on some parameters that enable virtualization or divert IO drivers or specifically the Amazon drivers to work really well. We've also removed things like floppy disk drives and Bluetooth drivers, which you'll never find in a virtual machine in Amazon. And when you take all of those things in aggregate and you remove them from the kernel, you end up with a much smaller, better, more efficient package. So that's a great starting point. The other piece is we've ensured that the latest and greatest graphics adapters, the GPUs, GPGPUs from Invidia, that the experienced on Ubuntu out of the box just works. It works really well, and well at scale. You'll find almost all machine learning workloads are drastically improved inside of GPGPU instances. And for the dollar, you're able to compute sometimes hundreds or thousands of times more efficiently than a fewer CPU type workload. >> You're talking about machine learning, but on the artificial intelligence side of life, a lot of conversation about that at the keynotes this morning. A lot of good services, whatever, again, your activity in that and where that's going, do you think, over the next 12, 16 months? >> Yes, so artificial intelligence is a really nice place where we see a lot of Ubuntu, mainly because the nature of how AI is infiltrating our lives. It has these two sides. One side is at the edge, and those are really fundamentally connected devices. And for every one of those billions of devices out there, there are necessarily connections to an instance in the cloud somewhere. So if we take just one example, right, an autonomous vehicle. That vehicle is connected to the internet. Sometimes well, when you're at home, parked in the garage or parked at Whole Foods, right? But sometimes it's not. You're in the middle of the desert out in West Texas. That autonomous vehicle needs to have a lot of intelligence local to that vehicle. It gets downloaded opportunistically. And what gets downloaded are the results of that machine learning, the results of that artificial intelligence process. So we heard in the keynotes quite a bit about data modeling, right? Data modeling means putting a whole bunch of data into Amazon, which Amazon has made it really easy to do with things like Snowball and so forth. Once the data is there, then the big GPGPU instances crunch that data and the result is actually a very tight, tightly compressed bit of insight that then gets fed to devices. So an autonomous vehicle that every single night gets a little bit better by tweaking its algorithms, when to brake, when to change lanes, when to make a left turn safely or a right turn safely, those are constantly being updated by all the data that we're feeding that. Now why I said that's important from an Ubuntu perspective is that we find Ubuntu in both of those locations. So we open this by saying that Ubuntu is the leading operating system inside of Amazon, representing 70% of those instances. Ubuntu is, across the board, right now in 100% of the autonomous vehicles that are running today. So Uber's autonomous vehicle, the Tesla vehicles, the Google vehicles, a number of others from other manufacturers are all running Ubuntu on the CPU. There's usually three CPUs in a smart car. The CPU that's running the autonomous driving engine is, across the board, running Ubuntu today. The fact that it's the same OS makes it, makes life quite nice for the developers. The developers who are writing that software that's crunching the numbers in the cloud and making the critical real-time decisions in the vehicle. >> You talk about autonomous vehicles, I mean, it's about a car in general, thousands of data points coming in, in continual real time. >> Dustin: Right. >> So it's just not autonomous -- >> Dustin: Right. >> operations, right? So are you working in that way, diagnostics, navigation, all those areas? >> Yes, so we catch as headlines are a lot of the hobbyist projects, the fun stuff coming out of universities or startup space. Drones and robots and vacuum cleaners, right? And there's a lot of Ubuntu running there, anything from Raspberry Pis to smart appliances at home. But it's actually, I think, really where those artificially intelligent systems are going to change our lives, is in the industrial space. It's not the drone that some kids are flying around in the park, it's the drone that's surveying crops, that's coming to understand what areas of a field need more fertilizer or less water, right. And that's happening in an artificially intelligent way as smarter and smarter algorithms make its way onto those drones. It's less about the running Pandora and Spotify having to choose the right music for you when you're sitting in your car, and a lot more about every taxicab in the city taking data and analytics and understanding what's going on around them. It's a great way to detect traffic patterns, potentially threats of danger or something like that. That's far more industrial and less intresting than the fun stuff, you know, the fireworks that are shot off by a drone. >> Not nearly as sexy, right? It's not as much fun. >> But that's where the business is, you know. >> That's right. >> One of the things people have been looking at is how Amazon's really maturing their discussion of hyrid cloud. Now, you said that data centers, public cloud, edge devices, lots of mobile, we talked about IOT and everything, what do you see from customers, what do you think we're going to see from Amazon going forward to build these hybrid architectures and how does that fit in to autonomous vehicles and the like? >> So in the keynote we saw a couple of organizations who were spotlighted as all-in on Amazon, and that's great. And actually almost all of those logos that are all-in on Amazon are all-in on Amazon on Ubuntu and that's great. That's a very small number of logos compared to the number of organizations out there that are actually hybrid. Hybrid is certainly a ramp to being all-in but for quite a bit of the industry, that's the journey and the destination, too, in fact. That there's always going to be some amount compute that happens local and some amount of compute that happens in the cloud. Ubuntu helps provide an important portability layer. Knowing something runs well on Ubuntu locally, it's going to run well on Ubuntu in Amazon, or vise versa. The fact that it runs well in Amazon, it will also run well on Ubuntu locally. Now we have a support -- >> Yeah, I was just curious, you talked about some of the optimization you made for AWS. >> Dustin: Right. >> Is that now finding its way into other environments or do we have a little bit of a fork? >> We do, it does find it's way back into other environments so, you know, the Amazon hypervisors are usually Xen-based, although there are some interesting other things coming from Amazon there. Typically what we find on-prem is usually more KVM or Vmware based. Now, most of what goes into that virtual kernel that we build for Amazon actually applies to the virtual kernel that we built for Ubuntu that runs in Xen and Vmware and KVM. There's some subtle differences. Some, a few things that we've done very specifically for Amazon, but for the most part it's perfectly compatible all the way back to the virtual machines that you would run on-prem. >> Well, Dustin, always a pleasure, >> Yeah. >> to have you hear on theCube. >> Thanks, John. >> You're welcome back any time. >> All right. >> We appreciate the time and wish you the best of luck here the rest of the day, too. >> Great. >> Good deal. >> Thank you. >> Glad to be with us. Dustin Kirkland from Canonical joining us here on theCube. Back with more from AWS Summit 2017 here in New York City right after this.

>> Announcer: Live from Austin, Texas. It's theCUBE, covering DockerCon 2017. Brought to you by Docker, and support from its ecosystem partners. (bright electronic music) >> Welcome back. I'm Stu Miniman, joined by Jim Kobielus for two days of theCUBE's live coverage, DockerCon 2017, here in Austin, Texas. We are the worldwide leader in live enterprise tech coverage, happy to welcome to the program, a first-time guest on theCUBE, happens to also be a local here in the Austin area, so Dustin Kirkland, the Ubuntu Product and Strategy, with Canonical, thanks so much for joining us. >> Thanks, Stu. >> All right, so Dustin, give us a good thumbnail, what's your role, and how excited are you to be at another local show. All the open source shows seem to be here in Austin. I mean, we love doing it. >> I'm super glad. >> Dustin: We love sharing Austin. Glad for people to come and visit. Just make sure you go home at the end of it. (chuckles) >> Jim: Keep Austin weird and keep it open. >> That's right, that's right. Yeah, it's great to be local, it's great to have the Docker community back in Austin. It was, a lot of these people were here for OpenStack. We'll be back for CubeCon later this year. OSCON in between. >> All right, and tell us a little bit about your role. >> Yes, so I lead Product and Strategy at Ubuntu. We make an operating system that runs in the cloud, on public clouds, private clouds, bare-metal, physical servers, down to desktops and embedded devices. >> Okay, so, I have a serious question for you. Every time we see the surveys of OpenStack, the surveys in the public cloud, Canonical's always there. I mean, everybody's using your stuff. >> Dustin: Good! >> But where are people paying money for it? What's kind of from the business standpoint, maybe you can give us the quick update on that. >> People pay money when it's mission-critical. When Ubuntu and OpenStack and soon, Kubernetes, certainly more and more, Docker, when that's part of the mission-critical infrastructure, they pay for that. They pay the support and the services, they pay for consulting, for design, for leads, for architecture. They pay for access to the product roadmap, and so we do have some really brand-name customers who pay us good money for that. >> Okay, it's our third year doing theCUBE at this show, and every year, it seems we come in with one of the same questions, which is like, all right, is this ready for production, is anybody using it? We backed you to knock down the doors of everybody here, and give us more customers to talk to, so, what do you see, what's your answer to that? >> Yeah, I mean, it strikes me as really odd when people are still asking, "Are containers ready "for production?" Containers have been part of our DNA in Ubuntu for almost 10 years now. Shipping an OS that boots into a container that's able to run LXD containers, Docker containers, and run those at tremendous scale. We'd run containers underneath as the control plane of every OpenStack cloud we've ever deployed, every Kubernetes cloud we've ever deployed, every Hadoop cloud we've ever deployed. So containers are part of our production system. >> So do you guys have a marketing term? You guys are the hipster Linux container company. You were doing it before it was cool. >> I guess so, I mean it's, I guess, it's like asking, and I wonder, you think cellphones are mainstream yet? It's like, yeah, it is now, but you're probably one of the first in your family to have a cellphone, right? It's, we're kind of at that juncture, where we've been doing for a long time, and it's good to see others finally taking advantage as well. >> In the keynote this morning, we talked, we saw a lot about the maturation of Docker. They really started out working with the developer, they've really grown, working with the business, working with the enterprise. Talk to us about your customers as it fits into the container space in general, Docker, specifically. What are you guys seeing? >> As an operating system that delivers the latest and greatest open source software across multiple architectures, public and private clouds, Docker fits into that very well, in fact. It sits alongside LXD at giving that machine container, replace your VM's experience, but also the new way of writing applications. Solomon talked about applications, and if you're going to develop an application, Docker is a great application development platform. So when applications are being developed, (mumbles) or microservices, from scratch, Docker is a fantastic approach, and we see more developers using Ubuntu desktops and Ubuntu in the cloud, as that development platform. As that matures, then we get into a situation where it becomes mission-critical, and then we have really interesting commercial discussions around how do we really help that platform succeed? >> All right, we just Microsoft on the program. >> Dustin: John, right? >> Yeah, John was on, talks about, (mumbles) Microsoft is talking about being open, Microsoft's talking about choice. They actually talked, John mentioned, your company and your operating system. When we get to cloud solutions, Canonical's supported everywhere. How do you guys differentiate? How do you make sure that they're choosing your product as opposed to something else? >> So Ubuntu itself, always latest and greatest. It's fresh, you're never more than six months away from the next latest and greatest everything across the board. You're never more than two years away from an LTS, a long-term support release. That's really the key differentiator for Ubuntu is its freshment, its velocity, and that maps very well to the container world, where things are revving very, very quickly. >> All right, security was a big focus this morning also. What's your viewpoint as to where security lives, how that works with all of your environment, and what you guys do for that-- >> I've been a security nerd for most of my career. In fact, it's one of those jobs you leave but you always kind of get sucked back into because you care about it, honestly. Ubuntu as a platform, security, we take very seriously. Encryption anywhere, we can use encryption, updates, latest and greatest updates, kernel patches, Livepatch for the kernel. (coughs) Livepatch for the kernel is particularly interesting from a security perspective because it enables us to address security vulnerabilities without rebooting systems, and that's really important in a containerized environment, where you're not just running one or two machines, you're running potentially thousands of machines or containers or applications, and being able to update one single kernel with a Livepatch, without rebooting any of them, that's what security people are excited about when we talk Ubuntu kernel and security. >> (mumbles) Ubuntu being deployed into Internet of things, or to what extent is your roadmap going in that direction 'cause we're seeing a lot of new development going into the Internet of things, to deploy artificial intelligence and deep learning algorithms and data, down to the edge, and so-- >> Yeah, it's beautiful, I mean, that edge-to-cloud story is something that we've got a very clear view on. We produce an OS, an Ubuntu OS called Ubuntu Core, is a read-only operating system custom-tailored for IoT devices. That's the OS, it's the same Ubuntu but rolled and managed and updated in a different way. Applications fit onto that device in the form of snaps, or Docker containers, frankly. They're a little bit different in the way that they're implemented, but we have a new packaging system that's well-adapted, well-tuned-- >> A snap is more, something different from a container, how? >> It is, it's a form of a container. It's less than a container, but it uses some of the same container primitives. It's, frankly, it's an archive and a set of security profiles that wrap that tarball, essentially, and the way it's executed in a very secure manner, so it's wrapped with AppArmor profiles, it only has access to certain parts of the system, it contains its own dependencies, but they're contained in such a way that they're protected from the rest of the system. A lot of that sounds like Docker, and it is similar to Docker, but Docker provides a little bit more of that machine experience. Docker will include a file system, it'll draw an IP address sometimes, or defroute traffic, whereas a snap actually runs directly on the underlying OS. It's more tightly linked to that OS. In terms of linking back to the machine learning, that happens in the cloud. Inevitably, IoT drives more cloud adoption because those little IoT devices, they've got so little processing power and storage by design, that information needs to go somewhere, and it goes to the cloud, where something like a TensorFlow, running in a Docker Swarm, or a Kubernetes, or some combination of those two, are really crunching the interesting problems. >> First, Google recently made a big to-do about federating more of the machine learning algorithms all the way to the edge device, so, the world is going in that direction but I hear you. That's, they're very constrained-- >> Dustin: We hear a lot about the edge. >> To run the algorithms that pull power on the edge device, but it's coming. >> Yeah, for sure. >> Great. >> Stu: All right, so Dustin, I heard Kubernetes and Swarm, you guys, agnostic to that, support all of it. >> Dustin: We are. >> What do you guys code on, what do you hear from customers? >> Yeah, so we're very proud of our position here. I'm here at DockerCon, supporting Docker. Docker Inc. is a close commercial partner of Canonical. We, Canonical is authorized to resell Docker Enterprise Edition, Docker services, Docker support. We've got mutual customers who buy that directly from Canonical, and we support Docker and Swarm and Datacenter on top of Ubuntu, and that's a great story that brings us from the developers who are running Docker on Ubuntu on their Macs and Windows machines. John, I'm sure, was talking about Windows and Docker. But when they put that into production, we've got the wherewithal to support that. We offer Kubernetes as another platform. I've spoken with some really bright, just last night, with a really bright cloud architect from a major Internet service provider, and their role is they set up Docker Swarms for their internal customers, and Kubernetes Clusters for their internal customers, and Cloud Foundries, and OpenStacks, all inside of this big telco Internet cable giant, and it makes sense, and they can do all of that, and do all of that on top of Ubuntu, because it's the platform that can offer whatever they need for their customers. >> All right, one of the other announcements in the keynote this morning was LinuxKit, so, I got a little bit of a preview before the show, and I don't feel that it was Docker trying to punch at the providers of Linux, and it didn't seem to come off that way in the keynote, but for those that hear at a glance, oh, wait, LinuxKit developed with a bunch of, you know, seems like mostly hardware companies plus Microsoft and Docker. What do you guys see, how do you look at that? >> It's genuinely fun for an open source engineer to put together a Linux distribution. It's like the thing you want to do, and customize it and tailor it, and the beauty of open source is you can absolutely do that, and so, what I saw from LinuxKit, I too got a little preview, it seems it comes out of the part of Docker that also works on unikernels, Alpine, to an extent, and they've built a container-optimized, or Docker-optimized OS from Docker, so if you want Docker all the way down, it sounds like LinuxKit is a solution that they're working on, still working on. I'll say that Ubuntu, containers are in our DNA, we built a kernel and we built a security system around containers for quite some time, and we continue to optimize that, and we work directly with Microsoft, Google, Amazon to ensure that the Ubuntu that's running in those public clouds is ready to run Docker and other container systems out of the box, and very consistently, in a way that looks exactly like the Ubuntu that's running as the bash shell on the Windows desktop, as the Ubuntu desktop itself, as the server that you might run in any one of the public clouds. It's a very consistent experience. We do tune that and tailor that, but it's in ways that ensures portability. >> All right, so Dustin, you talked about kind of the history and how long people have been using it. Production should not be a question. It's just where, what, how you're doing this. What things do you still see us needing to mature, or what excites you about this going forward? >> Yeah. The management, honestly, and that comes back to security. Ensuring that running those containers at scale, you're doing that in a secure manner. Minimal is part of it. We hear that quite a bit, that, "I want a minimal image, I want a minimal host." That is an important part of it. It's, we have to be a little bit careful that we don't go so minimal that we end up creating a bunch of snowflakes, special unicorns where every container image is a little bit different, every host is a little bit different, because it's more minimal than the previous one. That actually creates more security problems, so I think thinking that problem through is, it's one of the most important problems that I think through, or I'm working on right now, and I think others are interested in working on as well. >> All right, Dustin, you've been way too pleasant through all of this interview, so before we end up, as an Austin local here, I have to ask you the divisive question. Your favorite barbecue place. (Dustin groans) >> You know-- >> Jim: Your favorite bar band, too. Keep going. >> Okay, yeah, I mean, you can't go wrong with the award-wining Franklin's barbecue or the gas station Rudy's, we love those. My favorite's a little hole in the wall out close to where I live. It's a trailer that's been serving barbecue out of that trailer since 1997. It's called Bee Caves barbecue. Those guys, they put together some fantastic barbecue five days a week. They sell it until they're out, and then they close up the shop and they go fishing, and it's, you got to get there early, and when they're done, they're done, so I-- >> Yeah, is there a connection between people that make barbecue and people that put together Linux distributions? It sounds like a lot of the same thing. >> Maybe so, maybe so, yeah. I've got a smoker out back. I like to smoke meat as much as I can. >> Absolutely, all right, well, Dustin, really appreciate you joining us. Welcome to the >> Stu, thank you, Jim. >> Stu: CUBE alumni list now, and we'll be back with more coverage here from DockerCon 2017. You're watching theCUBE. (bright electronic music) >> I remember--

>> From theCUBE Studios in Palo Alto in Boston, bringing you data driven insights from theCUBE and ETR. This is Breaking Analysis with Dave Vellante. >> Cybersecurity stocks have been sending mixed signals as of late, mostly negative like much of tech, but some such as Palo Alto Networks, despite a tough go of it recently have held up better than most tech names. Others like CrowdStrike, had been out performing Broader Tech in March, but then flipped in May. Okta's performance was pretty much tracking along with CrowdStrike for most of the past several months, a little bit below, but then the Okta hack changed the trajectory of that name. Zscaler has crossed the critical billion dollar ARR revenue milestone, and now sees a path to five billion dollars in revenue, but the company stock fell sharply after its last earnings report and has been on a down trend since last November. Meanwhile, CyberArk's recent beat and raise, was encouraging and the stock acted well after its last report. Security remains the number one initiative priority amongst IT organizations and the spending momentum for many high flying cyber names remain strong. So what gives in cyber security? Hello, and welcome to this week's Wikibon CUBE insights powered by ETR. In this breaking analysis, we focus on security and will update you on the latest data from ETR to try to make sense out of the market and read into what this all means in both the near and long term, for some of our favorite names in cyber. First, the news. There's always something happening in security news cycles. The big recent news is new President Rodrigo Chavez declared a national emergency in Costa Rica due to the preponderance of Russian cyber attacks on the country's critical infrastructure. Such measures are normally reserved for natural disasters like earthquakes, but this move speaks to the nature of today's cyber threats. Of no surprise is modern superpower warfare even for a depleted power like Russia almost certainly involves cyber warfare as we continue to see in Ukraine. Privately held Arctic Wolf Networks hired Dustin Williams as its new CFO. Williams has taken three companies to IPO, including Nutanix in 2016, a very successful IPO for that company. Whether AWN chooses to pull the trigger this year or will wait until markets are less choppy or obviously remains to be seen. But it's a pretty clear sign the company is headed to IPO at some point. Now, big point of discussion this week at Red Hat Summit in Boston and the prior week at Dell technologies world was security. In the case of Red Hat, securing the digital supply chain was the main theme. And from Dell building, many security features into its storage arrays and cyber resilience services into its as a service offering called Apex. And we're seeing a trend where buyers want to reduce the number of bespoke tools they use if they, in fact can. Here's IDC's Jim Mercer, sharing data from a recent survey they conducted on the topic. Play the clip. >> Interestingly, we did a survey, I think around last August or something. And one of the questions was around where do you want your security, right? Where do you want to get your DevSecOps security from? Do you want to get it from individual vendors, right? Or do you want to get it from like your platforms that you're using and deploying changes in Kubernetes? >> Great question. What did they say? >> The majority of them, they're hoping they can get it built into the platform. That's really what they want-- >> Now, whether that's actually achievable is debatable because you have so much innovation and investment going on from the likes of startups and for instance, lace work or sneak and security companies that you see even trying to build platforms, you've got CrowdStrike, Okta, Zscaler and many others, trying to build security platforms and put it all under their umbrella. Now the last point will hit here is there was a lot of buzz in the news about Okta. The reaction to what was a relatively benign hack was pretty severe and probably overblown, but Okta's stock is paying the price of what is generally considered a blown communications plan versus a technical failure. Remember, identity is not an easy thing to rip and replace and Okta remains a best-of-breed player and leader in the space. So we're going to look at some ETR data later in this segment to try and make sense of the recent action in the market and certain names. Speaking of which let's take a look at how some of the names in cybersecurity have fared relative to some of the indices and relative indicators that we like to look at. Here's a Google finance comparison for a number of stocks and names in the bottom there you can see we plot the hack ETF which tracks security stocks. This is a year to date view. And so we don't show it here but the tech heavy NASDAQ is off around 26% year to date whereas the cyber ETF that we're showing is down 18%, okay. So cyber holding up a little bit better than broader tech as we've reported earlier, was actually much better and still seems to be a gap there, but the data are mixed. You can see Okta is way off relative to its peers. That's a combination of the breach that we talked about but also the run up in the stock since COVID. CrowdStrike was actually faring better but broke this month, we'll see how it's upcoming earnings announcements are received when it announces on June 2nd after the close. Palo Alto in the light blue has done better than most and until recently was holding up quite well. And of course, Sailpoint is another identity specialist, it is kind of off the charts here because it's going private with the acquisition by Thoma Bravo at nearly seven billion dollars. So you see some mixed signals in cyber these past several months and weeks. And so we're trying to understand what that all means. So let's take a look at the survey data and see how spending momentum is holding up. As we've reported IT spending forecast, at the macro level, they've come off their 8% highs from the end of the year, the ETRS December survey, but robust tech spending is still there. It's expected at nearly seven percent and this is amongst 1200 ETR respondents. Here's a picture from the ETR survey of the cybersecurity landscape. That y-axis that's net score or a measure of spending momentum and that horizontal access is overlap. We used to talk about it as a market share which is a measure of pervasiveness in the data set. That dotted red line at 40% indicates an elevated spending momentum level on the vertical axis and we filter the names and limited to only those with a hundred or more responses in the ETR survey. Then the pictures still pretty crowded as you can see. You got lots of companies above the red dotted line, including Microsoft which is up into the right, they're so far off the chart, it's just amazing. But also Palo Alto and Okta, Auth0, which of course is now owned by Okta, Zscaler, CyberArk is making moves. Sailpoint and Cloudflare, they're all above that magic 40% line. Now, you look at Cisco, it shows a very large presence in the horizontal axis in the data set. And it's got pretty respectable momentum and you see Splunk doing okay, no before and tenable just below that 40% line and a lot of names in the very respectable 20% zone. And we've included some legacy names just for context that fall below the zero percent line with a negative net score. And that means a larger proportion, that negative net score means a larger proportion of their customers in the survey are spending less than those that are spending more. Now, typically for these legacy names you're going to have a huge proportion of customers who have flat spending that kind of fat middle and that's why they sort of don't have that highly elevated score, but they're still viable as they get the recurring revenue each year. But the bottom line is that spending remains robust for some of the top names that we've talked about earlier despite their rocky stock performance. Now, let's filter this data a bit more to make it a little bit easier to read. So to do that, we take out Microsoft because they're just so dominant and we cherry pick some names to make the data more consumable and scannable. The other data point we've added is Okta's net score breakdown, the multicolored rows there, that row in the bottom right. Net score, it measures the percent of customers that are adding the platform new, that's the lime green, at 18% for Okta. The forest green is at 42%. That's the percent of customers in the survey that are spending six percent or more. The gray is flat spending. That's 32% for Okta, this past survey. The pink is customers that are spending less, that's three percent. They're spending six percent or worse in the survey, so only three percent for Okta. And the bright red at three percent is decommissioning the platform. You subtract the reds from the greens and you get a net score, well, into the 50s for Okta and you can see. We highlight Okta here because it's a name that we've been following for quite some time and customers have given us really solid feedback on the technology and up until the hack, they're affinity to Okta, but that seems to be continuing. We'll talk more about that. This recent breach to Okta has caused us to take a closer look. And you may recall, we reported with our ETR colleague, Eric Bradley. The breach was announced right in the middle of ETR collecting data in the last survey. And while we did see a noticeable downtick right after the announcement, the exposure of the hack and Okta's net score just after the breach was disclosed, you can see the combination of Okta and Auth0 remains very strong. I asked Eric Bradley this morning what he thought about Okta, and he pointed out that you can't evaluate this company on its price to earnings ratio. But it's forward sales multiple is now below 7X. And while attractive, these high flyers at some point, Eric says, they got to start making a profit. So you going to hold that thought, we'll come back to that. Now, another cut of the ETR data to look at our four star security names here. A while back we developed a methodology to try and cut through the noise of the crowded security sector using the ETR data to evaluate two key metrics; net score and shared N. Net score again is, spending momentum, the latter is an indicator of presence in the data set which is a proxy for market presence. Okay, we assigned those companies that cracked the top 10 in both net score and shared N, we give them four stars, okay, if they make the top 10. This chart here shows the April survey data for those companies with an N that's greater than, equal to a hundred responses. So again, we're filtering on those with a hundred or more responses. The table on the left that you see there, that's sorted by net score, okay. So we're sorting by spending momentum. And then the one on the right is sorted by shared N, so their presence in the data set. Seven companies hit the top 10 for both categories; Palo Alto Network, Splunk, CrowdStrike Okta, Proofpoint, Fortinet and Zscaler. Now, remember, take a look, Okta excludes Auth0, in this little methodology that we came up with. Auth0 didn't make the cuts but it hits the top 10 for net score. So if you add in Auth0's 112 N there that you see on the right. You add that into Okta, we put Okta in the number two spot in the survey on the right most table with the shared N of 354. Only Cisco has a higher presence in the data set. And you can see Cisco in the left lands just below that red dotted line. That's the top 10 in security. So if we were to combine Okta and Auth0 as one, Cisco would make the cut and earn four stars. Now, some other notables are CyberArk, which is just below the red line on the right most chart with an impressive 177 shared N. Again, if you combine Auth0 and Okta, CyberArk makes the four star grade because it's in the top 10 for net score on the left. And Sailpoint is another notable with a net score above 50% and it's got a shared N of 122, which is respectable. So despite the market's choppy waters, we're seeing some positive signs in the survey data for some of the more prominent names that we've been following for the last couple of years. So what does this mean for the markets going forward? As always, when we see these confusing signs we like to reach out to the network and one of the sharpest traders out there is Chip Simonton. We've quoted him before and we like to share some of his insights. And so we're going to highlight some of that here. So technically, almost every good tech stock is oversold. And as such, he suggested we might see a bounce here. We certainly are seeing that on this Friday, the 13th. But the right call tactically has been to sell into the rally these past several months, so we'll see what happens on Monday. The key issue with the name like Okta and some other momentum names like CrowdStrike and Zscaler is that when money comes back into tech, it's likely going to go to the FAANG stocks, the Facebook, Apple, Amazon, Netflix, Google, and of course, you put Microsoft in there as well. And we'll see about Amazon, by the way, it's kind of out of favor right now, as everyone's focused on the retail side of the business meanwhile it's cloud business is booming and that's where all the profit is. We think that should be the real focus for Amazon. But the point is, for these momentum names in cybersecurity that don't make money, they face real headwinds, as growth is slowing overall and interest rates rise, that makes the net present value of these investments much less attractive. We've talked about that before. But longer term, we agree with Chip Simonton that these are excellent companies and they will weather the storm and we think they're going to lead their respective markets. And in cyber, we would expect continued M&A activity, which could act as a booster shot in the arms of these names. Now in 2019, we saw the ETR data, it pointed to CrowdStrike, Zscaler, Okta and others in the security space. Some of those names that really looked to us like they were moving forward and the pandemic just created a surge in these names and admittedly they got out over their skis. But the data suggests that these leading companies have continued momentum and the potential for stay in power. Unlike the SolarWinds hack, it seems at this point anyway that Okta will recover in the market. For the reasons that we cited, investors, they might stay away for some time but longer term, there's a shift in CSO security strategies that appear to be permanent. They're really valuing cloud-based modern platforms, these platforms will likely continue to gain share and carry their momentum forward. Okay, that's it for now, thanks to Stephanie Chan, who helps with the background research and with social, Kristen Martin and Cheryl Knight help get the word out and do some great work as well. Alex Morrison is on production and handles all of our podcast. Alex, thank you. And Rob Hof is our Editor in Chief at SiliconANGLE. Remember, all these episodes, they're available as podcast, you can pop in the headphones and listen, just search "Breaking Analysis Podcast." I publish each week on wikibon.com and SiliconANGLE.com. Don't forget to check out etr.ai, best in the business for real customer data. It's an awesome platform. You can reach me at dave.vellante@siliconangle.com or @dvellante. You can comment on our LinkedIn posts. This is Dave Vellante for the CUBEinsights powered by ETR. Thanks for watching. And we'll see you next time. (bright upbeat music)

(radio calls) >> Announcer: From around the globe, its theCUBE covering Space & Cybersecurity Symposium 2020, hosted by Cal poly. Hello, welcome back to theCUBE virtual coverage with Cal Poly for the Space and Cybersecurity Symposium, a day four and the wrap up session, keynote session with the Lieutenant Governor of California, Eleni Kounalakis. She's here to deliver her keynote speech on the topic of California's role in supporting America's Cybersecurity future. Eleni, take it away. >> Thank you, John, for the introduction. I am Lieutenant Governor Eleni Kounalakis. It is an honor to be part of Cal Poly Space and Cybersecurity Symposium. As I speak kind of Pierre with the governor's office of business and economic development is available on the chat, too ready to answer any questions you might have. California and indeed the world are facing significant challenges right now. Every day we are faced with the ongoing COVID-19 pandemic and the economic downturn that is ensued. We have flattened the curve in California and are moving in the right direction but it is clear that we're not out of the woods yet. It is also impossible right now to escape the reality of climate change from the fire sparked by exceptionally rare, dry lightening events to extreme heat waves threatening public health and putting a strain on our electricity grid. We see that climate change is here now. And of course we've been recently confronted with a series of brutal examples of institutionalized racism that have created an awakening among people of all walks of life and compelled us into the streets to march and protest. In the context of all this, we cannot forget that we continue to be faced with other less visible but still very serious challenges. Cybersecurity threats are one of these. We have seen cities, companies and individuals paralyzed by attacks costing time and money and creating an atmosphere of uncertainty and insecurity. Our state agencies, local governments, police departments, utilities, news outlets and private companies from all industries are target. The threats around cybersecurity are serious but not unlike all the challenges we face in California. We have the tools and fortitude to address them. That is why this symposium is so important. Thank you, Cal Poly and all the participants for being here and for the important contributions you bring to this conference. I'd like to also say a few words about California's role in America's future in space. California has been at the forefront of the aerospace industry for more than a century through all the major innovations in aerospace from wooden aircraft, to World War II Bombers, to rockets and Mars rovers. California has played a pivotal role. Today, California is the number one state in total defense spending, defense contract spending and total number of personnel. It is estimated the Aerospace and Defense Industry, provides $168 billion in economic impact to our state. And America's best trained and most experienced aerospace and technology workforce lives here in California. The fact that the aerospace and defense sector, has had a strong history in California is no accident. California has always had strong innovation ecosystem and robust infrastructure that puts many sectors in a position to thrive. Of course, a big part of that infrastructure is a skilled workforce. And at the foundation of a skilled workforce is education. California has the strongest system of public higher education in the world. We're home to 10 university of California campuses, 23 California State university campuses and 116 California Community Colleges. All told nearly 3 million students are enrolled in public higher education. We also have world renowned private universities including the California Institute of Technology and Stanford University numbers one and three in the country for aerospace engineering. California also has four national laboratories and several NASA facilities. California possesses a strong spirit of innovation, risk taking and entrepreneurship. Half of all venture capital funding in the United States, goes to companies here in California. Lastly, but certainly no less critical to our success, California is a diverse state. 27% of all Californians are foreign born, 27% more than one in four of our population of 40 million people are immigrants from another country, Europe central and South America, India, Asia, everywhere. Our rich cultural diversity is our strength and helps drive our economy. As I look to the future of industries like cybersecurity and the growing commercial space industry, I know our state will need to work with those industries to make sure we continue to train our workforce for the demands of an evolving industry. The office of the lieutenant governor has a unique perspective on higher education and workforce development. I'm on the UC Board of Regents, the CSU Board of Trustees. And as of about two weeks ago, the Community Colleges Board of Governors. The office of the lieutenant governor is now the only office that is a member of every governing board, overseeing our public higher education system. Earlier in the symposium, we heard a rich discussion with Undersecretary Stewart Knox from the California Labor and Workforce Development Agency about what the state is doing to meet the needs of space and cybersecurity industries. As he mentioned, there are over 37,000 job vacancies in cybersecurity in our state. We need to address that gap. To do so, I see an important role for public private partnerships. We need input from industry and curriculum development. Some companies like Lockheed Martin, have very productive partnerships with universities and community colleges that train students with skills they need to enter aerospace and cyber industries. That type of collaboration will be key. We also need help from the industry to make sure students know that fields like cybersecurity even exist. People's early career interests are so often shaped by the jobs that members of their family have or what they see in popular culture. With such a young and evolving field like cybersecurity, many students are unaware of the job opportunities. I know for my visits to university campuses that students are hungry for STEM career paths where they see opportunities for good paying jobs. When I spoke with students at UC Merced, many of them were first generation college students who went through community college system before enrolling in a UC and they gravitated to STEM majors. With so many job opportunities available to STEM students, cybersecurity ought to be one that they are aware of and consider. Since this symposium is being hosted by Cal Poly, I wanted to highlight the tremendous work they're doing as leaders in the space and cybersecurity industry. Cal Poly California Cybersecurity Institute, does incredible work bringing together academia, industry and government training the next generation of cyber experts and researching emerging cybersecurity issues. As we heard from the President of Cal Poly, Jeff Armstrong the university is in the perfect location to contribute to a thriving space industry. It's close to Vandenberg Air Force Base and UC Santa Barbara and could be home to the future permanent headquarters of US Space Command. The state is also committed to supporting this space industry in the Central Coast. In July, the State of California, Cal poly US-based force and the others signed a memorandum of understanding to develop a commercial space port at Vandenberg Air Force Base and to develop a master plan to grow the commercial space industry in the region. Governor Newsom has made a commitment to lift up all regions of the state. And this strategy will position the Central Coast to be a global leader in the future of the space industry. I'd like to leave you with a few final thoughts, with everything we're facing. Fires, climate change, pandemic. It is easy to feel overwhelmed but I remain optimistic because I know that the people of the State of California are resilient, persistent, and determined to address our challenges and show a path toward a better future for ourselves and our families. The growth of the space industry and the economic development potential of projects like the Spaceport at Vandenberg Air Force Base, our great example of what we can look forward to. The potential for the commercial space industry to become a $3 trillion industry by mid century, as many experts predict is another. There are so many opportunities, new companies are going to emerge doing things we never could have dreamed of today. As Lieutenant General John Thompson said in the first session, the next few years of space and cyber innovation are not going to be a pony ride at the state fair, they're going to be a rodeo. We should all saddle up. Thank you. >> Okay, thank you very much, Eleni. I really appreciate it. Thank you for your participation and all your support to you and your staff. You guys doing a lot of work, a lot going on in California but cybersecurity and space as it comes together, California's playing a pivotal role in leading the world and the community. Thank you very much for your time. >> Okay, this session is going to continue with Bill Britton. Who's the vice president of technology and CIO at Cal Poly but more importantly, he's the director of the cyber institute located at Cal Poly. It's a global organization looking at the intersection of space and cybersecurity. Bill, let's wrap this up. Eleni had a great talk, talking about the future of cybersecurity in America and its future. The role California is playing, Cal Poly is right in the Central Coast. You're in the epicenter of it. We've had a great lineup here. Thanks for coming on. Let's put a capstone on this event. >> Thank you, John. But most importantly, thanks for being a great partner helping us get this to move forward and really changing the dynamic of this conversation. What an amazing time we're at, we had quite an unusual group but it's really kind of the focus and we've moved a lot of space around ourselves. And we've gone from Lieutenant General Thompson and the discussion of the opposition and space force and what things are going on in the future, the importance of cyber in space. And then we went on and moved on to the operations. And we had a private company who builds, we had the DOD, Department Of Defense and their context and NASA and theirs. And then we talked about public private partnerships from President Armstrong, Mr. Bhangu Mahad from the DOD and Mr. Steve Jacques from the National Security Space Association. It's been an amazing conference for one thing, I've heard repeatedly over and over and over, the reference to digital, the reference to cloud, the reference to the need for cybersecurity to be involved and really how important that is to start earlier than just at the employment level. To really go down into the system, the K through 12 and start there. And what an amazing time to be able to start there because we're returning to space in a larger capacity and it's now all around us. And the lieutenant governor really highlighted for us that California is intimately involved and we have to find a way to get our students involved at that same level. >> I want to ask you about this inflection point that was a big theme of this conference and symposium. It was throughout the interviews and throughout the conversations, both on the chat and also kind of on Twitter as well in the social web. Is that this new generation, it wasn't just space and government DOD, all the normal stuff you see, you saw JPL, the Hewlett Foundation, the Defense Innovation Unit, Amazon Web Services, NASA. Then you saw entrepreneurs come in, who were doing some stuff. And so you had this confluence of community. Of course, Cal Poly had participated in space. You guys does some great job, but it's not just the physical face-to-face show up, gets to hear some academic papers. This was a virtual event. We had over 300 organizations attend, different organizations around the world. Being a virtual event you had more range to get more people. This isn't digital. This symposium isn't about Central California anymore. It's global. >> No, it really has gone. >> What really happened to that? >> It's really kind of interesting because at first all of this was word of mouth for this symposium to take place. And it just started growing and growing and the more that we talk to organizations for support, the more we found how interconnected they were on an international scale. So much so that we've decided to take our cyber competition next year and take it globally as well. So if in fact as Major General Shaw said, this is about a multinational support force. Maybe it's time our students started interacting on that level to start with and not have to grow into it as they get older, but do it now and around space and around cybersecurity and around that digital environment and really kind of reduce the digital dividing space. >> Yeah, General Thompson mentioned this, 80 countries with programs. This is like the Olympics for space and we want to have these competitions. So I got great vision and I love that vision, but I know you have the number... Not number, the scores and from the competition this year that happened earlier in the week. Could you share the results of that challenge? >> Yeah, absolutely. We had 83 teams participate this year in the California Cyber Innovation Challenge. And again, it was based around a spacecraft scenario where a spacecraft, a commercial spacecraft was hacked and returned to earth. And the students had to do the forensics on the payload. And then they had to do downstream network analysis, using things like Wireshark and autopsy and other systems. It was a really tough competition. The students had to work hard and we had middle school and high school students participate. We had an intermediate league, new schools who had never done it before or even some who didn't even have STEM programs but were just signing up to really get involved in the experience. And we had our ultimate division which was those who had competed in several times before. And the winner of that competition was North Hollywood. They've been the winning team for four years in a row. Now it's a phenomenal program, they have their hats off to them for competing and winning again. Now what's really cool is not only did they have to show their technical prowess in the game but they also have to then brief and out-brief what they've learned to a panel of judges. And these are not pushovers. These are experts in the field of cybersecurity in space. We even had a couple of goons participating from DefCon and the teams present their findings. So not only are we talking technical, we're talking about presentation skills. The ability to speak and understand. And let me tell you, after reading all of their texts to each other over the weekend adds a whole new language they're using to interact with each other. It's amazing. And they are so more advanced and ready to understand space problems and virtual problems than we are. We have to challenge them even more. >> Well, it sounds like North Hollywood got the franchise. It's likethe Patriots, the Lakers, they've got a dynasty developing down there in North Hollywood. >> Well, what happens when there's a dynasty you have to look for other talent. So next year we're going global and we're going to have multiple states involved in the challenge and we're going to go international. So if North Hollywood pulls it off again next year, it's going to be because they've met the best in the world than defeated >> Okay, the gauntlet has been thrown down, got to take down North Hollywood from winning again next year. We'll be following that. Bill, great to get those results on the cyber challenge we'll keep track and we'll put a plug for it on our site. So we got to get some press on that. My question to you is now as we're going digital, other theme was that they want to hire digital natives into the space force. Okay, the DOD is looking at new skills. This was a big theme throughout the conference not just the commercial partnerships with government which I believe they had kind of put more research and personally, that's my personal opinion. They should be putting in way more research into academic and these environments to get more creative. But the skill sets was a big theme. What's your thoughts on how you saw some of the highlight moments there around skill sets? >> John, it's really interesting 'cause what we've noticed is in the past, everybody thinks skill sets for the engineering students. And it's way beyond that. It's all the students, it's all of them understanding what we call cyber cognizance. Understanding how cybersecurity works whatever career field they choose to be in. Space, there is no facet of supporting space that doesn't need that cyber cognizance. If you're in the back room doing the operations, you're doing the billing, you're doing the contracting. Those are still avenues by which cybersecurity attacks can be successful and disrupt your space mission. The fact that it's international, the connectivities, all of those things means that everyone in that system digitally has to be aware of what's going on around them. That's a whole new thought process. It's a whole new way of addressing a problem and dealing with space. And again it's virtual to everyone. >> That's awesome. Bill, great to have you on. Thank you for including theCUBE virtual, our CUBE event software platform that we're rolling out. We've been using it for the event and thank you for your partnership in this co-creation opening up your community, your symposium to the world, and we're so glad to be part of it. I want to thank you and Dustin and the team and the President of Cal Poly for including us. Thank you very much. >> Thank you, John. It's been an amazing partnership. We look forward to it in the future. >> Okay, that's it. That concludes the Space and Cybersecurity Symposium 2020. I'm John Furrier with theCUBE, your host with Cal Poly, who put on an amazing virtual presentation, brought all the guests together. And again, shout out to Bill Britton and Dustin DeBrum who did a great job as well as the President of Cal poly who endorsed and let them do it all. Great event. See you soon. (flash light sound)

>>thank you very much for this opportunity to talk about Stamp with a bio design program, which is entrepreneurship education for the medical devices. My name is Julia Key Can. Oh, I am Japanese. I have seen the United States since two doesn't want on the more than half of my life after graduating from medical school is in the United States. I hope I can contribute to make them be reached between Japan that you were saying right I did the research in the period of medical devices with a patient all over the world today is my batteries met their country finished medication stamp of the city. Yeah, North Korea academia, but also a wrong. We in the industry sectors sometimes tried to generate new product which can generate revenue from their own research outward, it is explained by three steps. The first one is the debut river, which is the harbor Wrong research output to the idea which can be product eventually. That they are hard, though, is the best body, which is a hot Arboria. From idea to commercial for the other one is that we see which is a harder to make a martial hold up to become a big are revenue generating products for the academia that passed the heart is a critical on the essential to make a research output to the idea. Yeah, they're two different kind of squash for the developing process in the health care innovation, Why's bio and by all the farmer under the other one is medical device regarding the disciplining method is maybe in mechanical engineering. Electrical engineering on the medical under surgical by Obama is mainly chemical engineering, computer science, biology and genetics. However, very important difference off these to be the innovation process. Medic is suitable on these digital innovation and by Obama, is suitable discovery process needs. Yeah, in general transformation of medical research between the aroma academia output to the commercial product in the medical field is called bench to bed. It means from basically such to critical applications. But it is your bio on the path. Yeah, translation. Medical research for medical devices is better. Bench on back to bed, which means quicker Amit needs to bench on back to Greek application. The difference off the process is the same as the difference off the commercialization. Yeah, our goal is to innovate the newer devices for patient over the war. Yeah, yeah, there are two process to do innovation. One is technology push type of innovation. The other one is news, full type of innovation. Ignore the push stop Innovation is coming from research laboratory. It is suitable for the farm on the bios. Happy type of innovation. New, useful or used driven type of type of innovation is suitable for medical devices. Either Take this topic of innovation or useful type of innovation. It is important to have Mini's. We should think about what? It's waas Yeah, in 2001 stop for the Cube, API has started to stop with Bio Design program, which is on entrepreneurship education for medical devices. Our mission is educated on empowering helps technology, no based innovators on the reading, the transition to a barrier to remain a big innovation ecosystem. Our vision is to be a global leader in advancing Hearst technology innovation to improve lives everywhere. There are three steps in our process. Off innovation, identify invent on England. Yeah, yeah. The most important step is the cluster, which is I didn't buy. I didn't buy a well characterized needs is the Vienna off a grating vision. Most of the value off medical device development is due to Iraq Obina unmet needs. So we focused in this gated by creates the most are the mosque to find on the Civic on appropriate. Yeah, our barrels on the student Hickory World in March, disparate 19 that ideally include individual, which are background in many thing engineering on business. Yeah, how to find our needs. Small team will go to the hospital or clinic or environment to offer them the healthcare providers with naive eyes. The team focused. You look to keep all the um, it needs not technology. This method is senior CTO. It's a rocket car approach which can be applied all that design, thinking the team will generate at least 200 needs from economic needs. Next stick to identify Pace is to select the best. Amit Knees were used for different aspect, which can about it the nominees. These background current existing solutions market size on the stakeholders. Once we pick up ur madness from 200 nominees, they can move to the invention pates. Finally, they can't be the solution many people tend to invent on at the beginning base without carefree evaluating its unmet knees to result in a better tend to pouring love. Their whole idea, even amid NIS, is not what this is. Why most of the medical device innovation fail due to the lack off unmet needs. To avoid this Peter Hall, our approach is identify good needs. First on invention is the sex to generate the idea wrong. Unmet knees. We will use seven Rules off race Tony B B zero before judgment encourage wild ideas built on the ideas off. Others. Go Conte. One conversation time. Stay focused on the topic. The brainstorming is like association game. Somebody's idea can stimulate the others ideas. After generating many ideas, the next step is sleeping of idea whether use five different Dustin to embody the ideas. Intellectual property regulatory. Remember National Business Model on technology How, after this election step, we can have the best solution with system it needs, and finally team will go to the implementation pace. This place is more business oriented mothers. The strategy off business implementations on the business planning. Yeah, yeah, students want more than 50 starting up are spinning off from by design program. Let me show one example This is a case of just reputations. If patient your chest pain, most of that patient go to family doctor and trust. The first are probably Dr before the patient to General Securities. General Card, obviously for the patient Director, Geologist, Director, API geologist will make a reservation. Horta uses it. Test patient will come to the clinic people for devices in machine on his chest. Well, what? Two days? Right? That patient will visit clinic to put all the whole decency After a few days off. Analysis patient Come back to Dr to hear the result Each step in his money to pay. This is a minute, Knees. This is a rough sketch off the solutions. The product name is die. A patch on it can save about $620. Part maybe outpatient right here. >>Yeah, yeah. Life is stressful. We all depend on our heart with life source of our incredible machine. The body, however, sometimes are hard Need to check up. Perhaps you felt dizzy heart racing or know someone who has had a serious heart problem The old fashioned monitors that used to get from most doctors or bulky And you can't wear them exercising or in the shower. If appropriate for you, sudden life will provide you the eye rhythm. Zero patch to buy five inch band aid like patch would. You can apply to your chest in the comfort of your own home or in the gym. It will monitor your heart rate for up to 14 days. You never have to come into a doctor's office as you mail back. Patched us shortly after you were receiving. Easy to understand report of your heart activity, along with recommendations from a heart specialists to understand the next steps in your heart. Health sudden life bringing heart monitoring to you. >>This is from the TV broadcasting become Ah, this is a core value we can stamping on his breast. He has a connotation of the decent died. Now the company names Iris is in the public market cap off. This company is more than six billion di parts is replacing grasp all or that you see the examination. However, our main product is huge. The product lifecycle Very divisive, recent being it's. But if we can educate the human decision oil because people can build with other people beyond space and yeah, young broader stop on by design education is now runs the media single on Japan. He doesn't 15 PBS probably star visited Stamp of the diversity and Bang. He announced that Japan, by design, will runs with vampires. That problem? Yeah, Japan Barzan program has started a University of Tokyo Osaka University and we've asked corroborating with Japanese government on Japanese medical device Industry s and change it to that. Yeah, this year that it's batch off Japan better than parachute on. So far more than five. Starting up as being that's all. Thank you very much for your application.

>> Narrator: From around the globe. It's theCUBE covering space in cybersecurity symposium 2020 hosted by Cal Poly. >> Hello, everyone. Welcome to the space and cybersecurity symposium, 2020 hosted by Cal Poly where the intersection of space and security are coming together. I'm John Furrier, your host with theCUBE here in California. I want to welcome our featured guest, Lieutenant General, John F. Thompson with the United States Space Force approach to cybersecurity. That's the topic of this session. And of course he's the commander of the space and missile system center in Los Angeles Air Force Base. Also heading up Space Force. General, thank you for coming on. I really appreciate to you kicking this off. Welcome to the symposium. >> Hey, so thank you very much, John, for that very kind introduction. Also very much thank you to Cal Poly for this opportunity to speak to this audience today. Also a special shout out to one of the organizers, Dustin Debrun, for all of his work, helping get us to this point. Ladies and gentlemen as a John mentioned, I'm JT Thompson. I lead the 6,000 men and women of the United States Space Force's Space and Missile System Center, which is headquartered here at Los Angeles Air Force Base and El Segundo. If you're not quite sure where that's at, it's about a mile and a half from LAX. This is our main operating location, but we do have a number of other operating locations around the country. We're about 500 people at Kirtland Air Force Base in Albuquerque, New Mexico, and an about another 500 people on the front range of the Rockies between Colorado Springs and Denver plus a smattering of other much smaller operating locations nationwide. We're responsible for acquiring, developing and sustaining the United States Space Force's, critical space assets. That includes the satellites in the space layer and also on the ground layer our ground segments to operate those satellites. And we also are in charge of procuring launch services for the US Space Force and a number of our critical mission partners across the Department of Defense and the intelligence community. Just as a couple of examples of some of the things we do, if you're unfamiliar with our work we developed and currently sustain the 31 satellite GPS constellation that satellite constellation, while originally intended to help with global navigation, those GPS signals have provided trillions of dollars in unanticipated value to the global economy over the past three decades. GPS is everywhere. I think everybody realizes that. Agriculture, banking, the stock market, the airline industry, separate and distinct navigation systems. It's really pervasive across both capabilities for our Department of Defense and capabilities for our economy and individuals, billions of individuals across our country and the planet. Some of the other work we do for instance, in the communications sector, secure communications satellites that we designed and build that link America's sons and daughters serving in the military around the world and really enable real time support and comms for our deployed forces. And those of our allies. We also acquire infrared missile warning satellites that monitor the planet for missile launches that provide advanced warning to the US Homeland and to our allies in case some of those missile launches are nefarious. On a note, that's probably a lot closer to home, maybe a lot closer to home than many of us want to think about here in the state of California. In 2018, SMC jumped through a bunch of red tape and bureaucracy to partner with the US Forest Service during two of the largest wildfires in the state's history, the Camp and Woolsey fires in Northern California. As those fires spread out of control, we created processes on the fly to share data from our missile warning satellites. Those are satellites that are systems that are purpose built to see heat sources from thousands of miles above the planet. And we collaborated with the US Forest Service so that firefighters on the ground could track those fires more in real time and better forecast fires and where they were spreading, thereby saving lives and property by identifying hotspots and flareups for firefighters. That data that we were able to working with our contractors pass to the US Forest Service and authorities here in California, was passed in less than an hour as it was collected to get it into the hands of the emergency responders, the first responders as quickly as possible and doing that in an hour greatly surpassed what was available from some of the other assets in the airborne and ground-based fire spotters. It was really instrumental in fighting those fires and stopping their spread. We've continued that involvement in recent years, using multiple systems to support firefighters across the Western US this fall, as they battled numerous wildfires that unfortunately continue. Working together with the US Forest Service and with other partners we'd like to think that we've made a difference here, but there's still a lot more work to go. And I think that we should always be asking ourselves what else can space data be used for and how can we more rapidly get that space data to stakeholders so that they can use it for purposes of good, if you will. How else can we protect our nation? How else can we protect our friends and allies? I think a major component of the discussion that we will have throughout this conference is that the space landscape has changed rapidly and continues to change rapidly. Just over the past few years, John and I were talking before we went live here and 80 nations now have space programs. Nearly 80 space faring nations on the planet. If you just look at one mission area that the Department of Defense is interested in, and that's small launch, there are currently over 100 different small launch companies within the US industrial base vying for commercial DoD and civil payload capabilities, mostly to lower earth orbit. It's truly a remarkable time. If you factor in those things like artificial intelligence and machine learning, where we're revolutionizing really, the ways that we generate process and use data. It's really remarkable. In 2016, so if you think about this four years ago, NASA estimated that there were 28 terabytes of information transiting their space network each day. And that was four years ago. Obviously we've got a lot of desire to work with a lot of the people in the audience in this conference, we need to work with big thinkers, like many of you to answer questions on how best we apply data analytics to extract value and meaning from that data. We need new generations of thinkers to help apply cutting edge theories of data mining, cyber behaviorism, and Internet of Things 2.0, it's just truly a remarkable time to be in the space business and the cyber aspects of the space business are truly, truly daunting and important to all of us. Integrating cyber security into our space systems, both commercial and government is a mandate. it's no longer just a nice to have as the US Space Force and Department of the Air Force leadership has said many times over the past couple of years, space is becoming congested and contested. And that contested aspect means that we've got to focus on cyber security in the same way that the banking industry and cyber commerce focus on cybersecurity day in and day out. The value of the data and services provided is really directly tied to the integrity and availability of that data and services from the space layer, from the ground control segments associated with it. And this value is not just military, it's also economic and it's not just American, it's also a value for the entire world, particularly our allies, as we all depend upon space and space systems. Your neighbors and friends here in California that are employed at the space and missile system center work with network defenders. We work with our commercial contractors and our systems developers, our international allies and partners to try and build as secure and resilient systems as we can from the ground up that keep the global comments of space free and open for exploration and for commerce as John and I were talking earlier, before we came online, there's an aspect of cybersecurity for space systems, especially for some of our legacy systems, that's more, how do we bolt this on? Cause we fielded those space systems a number of years ago, and the challenges of cybersecurity in the space domain have grown. So we have a part that we have to worry about, bolting it on, but then we have to worry about building it in as we field new systems and build in a flexibility that realizes that the cyber threat or the cybersecurity landscape will evolve over time. It's not just going to be stagnant. There will always be new vulnerabilities and new threat vectors that we all have to look at. Look, as Secretary Barrett, who is our secretary of the air force likes to say most Americans use space before they have their first cup of coffee in the morning. The American way of life really depends on space. And as part of the United States Space Force, we work with defense leaders, our Congress joint, and international military teammates and industry to ensure American leadership in space. I really thank you for this opportunity to address the audience today, John, and thanks so much to Cal Poly for letting me be one of the speakers at this event. I've really looked forward to this for several months. And so with that, I look forward to your questions as we kind of move along here. >> General, thank you very much for those awesome introductory statement. For the folks watching on the stream, Brigadier General Carthan's going to be in the chat, answering any questions, feel free to chat away. He's the vice commander of Space and Missile System Center, he'll be available. A couple of comments from your keynote before I get to my questions. Cause it just jumped into my head. You mentioned the benefits of say space with the fires in California. We're living that here. That's really realtime. That's a benefit. You also mentioned the ability for more people launching payloads into space. I'm only imagined Moore's law smaller, faster, cheaper applies to rockets too. So I'm imagining you have the benefits of space and you have now more potential objects flying out sanctioned and maybe unsanctioned. So is it going to be more rules around that? This is an interesting question cause it's exciting Space Force, but for all the good there is potentially bad out there. >> Yeah. So John, I think the basics of your question is as space becomes more congested and contested, is there a need for more international norms of how satellites fly in space? What kind of basic features satellites have to perhaps de orbit themselves? What kind of basic protections should all satellites be afforded as part of a peaceful global commons of space? I think those are all fantastic questions. And I know that US and many allied policy makers are looking very, very hard at those kinds of questions in terms of what are the norms of behavior and how we field, and field as the military term. But how we populate using civil or commercial terms that space layer at different altitudes, lower earth orbit, mid earth orbit, geosynchronous earth orbit, different kinds of orbits, what the kind of mission areas we accomplished from space. That's all things that need to be definitely taken into account as the place gets a little bit, not a little bit as the place gets increasingly more popular day in and day out. >> I'm super excited for Space Force. I know that a new generation of young folks are really interested in it's an emerging, changing great space. The focus here at this conference is space and cybersecurity, the intersection. I'd like to get your thoughts on the approach that a space force is taking to cybersecurity and how it impacts our national goals here in the United States. >> Yeah. So that's a great question John, let me talk about it in two basic ways. At number one is an and I know some people in the audience, this might make them a little bit uncomfortable, but I have to talk about the threat. And then relative to that threat, I really have to talk about the importance of cyber and specifically cyber security, as it relates to that threat. The threats that we face really represented a new era of warfare and that new era of warfare involves both space and cyber. We've seen a lot of action in recent months from certain countries, notably China and Russia that have threatened what I referred to earlier as the peaceful global commons of space. For example, it threw many unclassified sources and media sources. Everybody should understand that the Russians have been testing on orbit anti-satellite capabilities. It's been very clear if you were following just the week before last, the Department of Defense released its 2020 military and security developments involving the People's Republic of China. And it was very clear that China is developing ASATs, electronic jammers, directed energy weapons, and most relevant to today's discussion, offensive cyber capabilities. There are kinetic threats that are very, very easy to see, but a cyber attack against a critical command and control site or against a particular spacecraft could be just as devastating to the system and our war fighters in the case of GPS and important to note that that GPS system also impacts many civilians who are dependent on those systems from a first response perspective and emergency services, a cyber attack against a ground control site could cause operators to lose control of a spacecraft or an attacker could feed spoofed data to assist them to mislead operators so that they sent emergency services personnel to the wrong address. Attacks on spacecraft on orbit, whether directly via a network intrusion or enabled through malware introduced during the system's production while we're building the satellite can cripple or corrupt the data. Denial-of-service type attacks on our global networks obviously would disrupt our data flow and interfere with ongoing operations and satellite control. If GPS went down, I hesitate to say it this way, cause we might elicit some screams from the audience. But if GPS went down a Starbucks, wouldn't be able to handle your mobile order, Uber drivers wouldn't be able to find you. And Domino's certainly wouldn't be able to get there in 30 minutes or less. So with a little bit of tongue in cheek there from a military operations perspective, it's dead serious. We have become accustomed in the commercial world to threats like ransomware and malware. And those things have unfortunately become commonplace in commercial terrestrial networks and computer systems. However, what we're seeing is that our adversaries with the increased competition in space these same techniques are being retooled, if you will, to use against our national security space systems day in and day out. As I said, during my opening remarks on the importance of cyber, the value of these systems is directly tied to their integrity. If commanders in the field, firefighters in California or baristas in Starbucks, can't trust the data they're receiving, then that really harms their decision making capabilities. One of the big trends we've recently seen is the move towards proliferated LEO constellations, obviously Space X's Starlink on the commercial side and on the military side, the work that DARPA and my organization SMC are doing on Blackjack and Casino, as well as some space transport layer constellation work that the space development agency is designing are all really, really important types of mesh network systems that will revolutionaries how we plan and field war fighting systems and commercial communications and internet providing systems. But they're also heavily reliant on cybersecurity. We've got to make sure that they are secured to avoid an accident or international damage. Loss of control of these constellations really could be catastrophic from both a mission perspective or from a satellites tumbling out of low earth orbit perspective. Another trend is introductions in artificial intelligence and machine learning, onboard spacecraft are at the edge. Our satellites are really not so much hardware systems with a little software anymore in the commercial sector and in the defense sector, they're basically flying boxes full of software. And we need to ensure that data that we're getting out of those flying boxes full of software are helping us base our decisions on accurate data and algorithms, governing the right actions and that those systems are impervious to the extent possible to nefarious modifications. So in summation, cybersecurity is a vital element of everything in our national security space goals. And I would argue for our national goals, writ large, including economic and information dimensions, the Space Force leadership at all levels from some of the brand new second lieutenants that general Raymond swore in to the space force this morning, ceremonially from the air force associations, airspace and cyberspace conference to the various highest levels, General Raymond, General DT Thompson, myself, and a number of other senior leaders in this enterprise. We've got to make sure that we're all working together to keep cyber security at the forefront of our space systems cause they absolutely depend on it. >> You mentioned hardware, software threats, opportunities, challenges. I want to ask you because you got me thinking of the minute they're around infrastructure. We've heard critical infrastructure, grids here on earth. You're talking about critical infrastructure, a redefinition of what critical infrastructure is, an extension of what we have. So I'd love to get your thoughts about Space Force's view of that critical infrastructure vis-a-vis the threat vectors, because the term threat vectors has been kicked around in the cyberspace. Oh you have threat vectors. They're always increasing the surface area. If the surface area is from space, it's an unlimited service area. So you got different vectors. So you've got new critical infrastructure developing real time, really fast. And you got an expanded threat vector landscape. Putting that in perspective for the folks that aren't really inside the ropes on these critical issues. How would you explain this and how would you talk about those two things? >> So I tell you, just like, I'm sure people in the security side or the cybersecurity side of the business in the banking industry feel, they feel like it's all possible threat vectors represent a dramatic and protect potentially existential threat to all of the dollars that they have in the banking system, to the financial sector. On the Department of Defense side, we've got to have sort of the same mindset. That threat vector from, to, and through space against critical space systems, ground segments, the launch enterprise, or transportation to orbit and the various different domains within space itself. Like I mentioned before, LEO, MEO and GEO based satellites with different orbits, all of the different mission areas that are accomplished from space that I mentioned earlier, some that I did mention like a weather tactical or wide band communications, various new features of space control. All of those are things that we have to worry about from a cyber security threat perspective. And it's a daunting challenge right now. >> Yeah, that's awesome. And one of the things we've been falling on the hardware side on the ground is the supply chain. We've seen, malware being, really put in a really obscure hardware. Who manufactures it? Is it being outsourced? Obviously government has restrictions, but with the private sector, you mentioned China and the US kind of working together across these peaceful areas. But you got to look at the supply chain. How does the supply chain in the security aspect impact the mission of the US space Force? >> Yeah. Yeah. So how about another, just in terms of an example, another kind of California based historical example. The very first US Satellite, Explorer 1, was built by the jet propulsion laboratory folks, not far from here in El Segundo, up in Pasadena, that satellite, when it was first built in the late 50s weighing a little bit, over 30 pounds. And I'm sure that each and every part was custom made and definitely made by US companies. Fast forward to today. The global supply chain is so tightly coupled, and frankly many industries are so specialized, almost specialized regionally around the planet. We focus every day to guarantee the integrity of every component that we put in our space systems is absolutely critical to the operations of those satellites and we're dependent upon them, but it becomes more difficult and more difficult to understand the heritage, if you will, of some of the parts that are used, the thousands of parts that are used in some of our satellites that are literally school bus sized. The space industry, especially national security space sector is relatively small compared to other commercial industries. And we're moving towards using more and more parts from non US companies. Cybersecurity and cyber awareness have to be baked in from the beginning if we're going to be using parts that maybe we don't necessarily understand 100% like an Explorer one, the lineage of that particular part. The environmental difficulties in space are well known. The radiation environment, the temperature extremes, the vacuum, those require specialized component. And the US military is not the only customer in that space. In fact, we're definitely not the dominant customer in space anymore. All those factors require us along with our other government partners and many different commercial space organizations to keep a very close eye on our supply chains, from a quality perspective, a security perspective and availability. There's open source reporting on supply training intrusions from many different breaches of commercial retailers to the infectious spread of compromised patches, if you will. And our adversaries are aware of these techniques. As I mentioned earlier, with other forms of attack, considering our supply chains and development networks really becomes fair game for our adversaries. So we have to take that threat seriously. Between the government and industry sectors here in the US. We're also working with our industry partners to enact stronger defenses and assess our own vulnerabilities. Last fall, we completed an extensive review of all of our major contracts here at Space and Missile System Center to determine the levels of cyber security requirements we've implemented across our portfolio. And it sounds really kind of businessy geeky, if you will. Hey, we looked at our contracts to make sure that we had the right clauses in our contracts to address cybersecurity as dynamically as we possibly could. And so we found ourselves having to add new language to our contracts, to require system developers, to implement some more advanced protective measures in this evolving cyber security environment. So that data handling and supply chain protections from contract inception to launch and operations were taken into account. Cyber security really is a key performance parameter for us now. Performance of the system, It's as important as cost, it's as important as schedule, because if we deliver the perfect system on time and on cost, it can perform that missile warning or that communications mission perfectly, but it's not cyber secure. If it's doesn't have cyber protections built into it, or the ability to implement mitigations against cyber threats, then we've essentially fielded a shoe box in space that doesn't do the CA the war fighter or the nation any good. Supply chain risk management is a major challenge for us. We're doing a lot to coordinate with our industry partners. We're all facing it head on to try and build secure and trusted components that keep our confidence as leaders, firefighters, and baristas as the case may be. But it is a challenge. And we're trying to rise to that challenge. >> This is so exciting this new area, because it really touches everything. Talk about geeking out on the tech, the hardware, the systems but also you put your kind of MBA hat on you go, what's the ROI of extra development and how things get built. Because the always the exciting thing for space geeks is like, if you're building cool stuff, it's exciting, but you still have to build. And cybersecurity has proven that security has to be baked in from the beginning and be thought as a system architecture. So you're still building things, which means you got to acquire things, you got to acquire parts, you got acquire build software and sustain it. How is security impacting the acquisition and the sustainment of these systems for space? >> Yeah. From initial development, through planning for the acquisition, design, development, our production fielding and sustainment, it impacts all aspects of the life cycle, John. We simply, especially from the concept of baking in cybersecurity, we can't wait until something is built and then try and figure out how to make it cyber secure. So we've moved way further towards working side by side with our system developers to strengthen cybersecurity from the very beginning of a systems development, cyber security, and the resilience associated with it really have to be treated as a key system attribute. As I mentioned earlier, equivalent with data rates or other metrics of performance. We like to talk in the space world about mission assurance and mission assurance has always sort of taken us as we technically geek out. Mission assurance has always taken us to the will this system work in space. Can it work in a vacuum? Can it work in as it transfers through the Van Allen radiation belt or through the Southern hemisphere's electromagnetic anomaly? Will it work out in space? And now from a resiliency perspective, yeah, it has to work in space. It's got to be functional in space, but it's also got to be resistant to these cybersecurity threats. It's not just, I think a General D.T Thompson quoted this term. It's not just widget assurance anymore. It's mission assurance. How does that satellite operator that ground control segment operate while under attack? So let me break your question a little bit, just for purposes of discussion into really two parts, cybersecurity, for systems that are new and cybersecurity for systems that are in sustainment are kind of old and legacy. Obviously there's cyber vulnerabilities that threatened both, and we really have to employ different strategies for defensive of each one. For new systems. We're desperately trying to implement across the Department of Defense and particularly in the space world, a kind of a dev sec ops methodology and practice to delivering software faster and with greater security for our space systems. Here at SMC, we have a program called enterprise ground services, which is a toolkit, basically a collection of tools for common command and control of different satellite systems, EGS as we call it has an integrated suite for defensive cyber capabilities. Network operators can use these tools to gain unprecedented insight to data flows and to monitor space network traffic for anomalies or other potential indicators of a bad behavior, malicious behavior, if you will, it's rudimentary at this point, but because we're using DevSecOps and that incremental development approach, as we scale it, it just becomes more and more capable. Every product increment that we feel. Here at LA Air Force Base, we have the United Space Force's West Coast Software Factory, which we've dubbed the Kobayashi Maru. They're using those agile DevOps software development practices to deliver a space awareness software to the combined space operations center. Affectionately called the CSpock that CSpock is just on the road from Cal Poly there in San Luis Obispo at Vandenberg Air Force Base. They've so securely linked the sea Spock with other space operation centers around the planet, our allies, Australia, Canada, and the UK. We're partnering with all of them to enable secure and enhanced combined space operations. So lots of new stuff going on as we bake in new development capabilities for our space systems. But as I mentioned earlier, we've got large constellations of satellites on orbit right now. Some of them are well in excess of a decade or more or old on orbit. And so the design aspects of those satellites are several decades old. But we still have to worry about them cause they're critical to our space capabilities. We've been working with an air force material command organization called CROWS, which stands for the Cyber Resiliency Office for Weapon Systems to assess all of those legacy platforms from a cyber security perspective and develop defensive strategies and potential hardware and software upgrades to those systems to better enable them to live through this increasingly cybersecurity concerned era that we currently live in. Our industry partners have been critical to both of those different avenues. Both new systems and legacy systems. We're working closely with them to defend and upgrade national assets and develop the capabilities to do similar with new national assets coming online. The vulnerabilities of our space systems really kind of threatened the way we've done business in the past, both militarily and in the case of GPS economically. The impacts of that cybersecurity risk are clear in our acquisition and sustainment processes, but I've got to tell you, as the threat vectors change, as the vulnerabilities change, we've got to be nimble enough, agile enough, to be able to bounce back and forth. We can't just say, many people in the audience are probably familiar with the RMF or the Risk Management Framework approach to reviewing the cyber security of a system. We can't have program managers and engineers just accomplish an RMF on a system. And then, hey, high five, we're all good. It's a journey, not a destination, that's cybersecurity. And it's a constant battle rhythm through our weapon systems lifecycle, not just a single event. >> I want to get to this commercial business needs and your needs on the next question. But before I go there, you mentioned agile. And I see that clearly because when you have accelerated innovation cycles, you've got to be faster. And we saw this in the computer industry, mainframes, mini computers, and then we started getting beyond maybe when the internet hit and PCs came out, you saw the big enterprises, the banks and government start to work with startups. And it used to be a joke in the entrepreneurial circles is that, there's no way if you are a startup you're ever going to get a contract with a big business enterprise. Now that used to be for public sector and certainly for you guys. So as you see startups out there and there's acquisition involved, I'm sure would love to have a contract with Space Force. There's an ROI calculation where if it's in space and you have a sustainment view and it's software, you might have a new kind of business model that could be attractive to startups. Could you share your thoughts on the folks who want to be a supplier to you, whether they're a startup or an existing business that wants to be agile, but they might not be that big company. >> John, that's a fantastic question. We're desperately trying to reach out to those new space advocates, to those startups, to those what we sometimes refer to, within the Department of Defense, those non traditional defense contractors. A couple of things just for thinking purposes on some of the things that we're trying to highlight. Three years ago, we created here at Space and Missile System Center, the Space Enterprise Consortium to provide a platform, a contractual vehicle, really to enable us to rapidly prototype, development of space systems and to collaborate between the US Space Force, traditional defense contractors, non traditional vendors like startups, and even some academic institutions. SPEC, as we call it, Space Enterprise Consortium uses a specialized contracting tool to get contracts awarded quickly. Many in the audience may be familiar with other transaction agreements. And that's what SPEC is based on. And so far in just three years, SPEC has awarded 75 different prototyping contracts worth over $800 million with a 36% reduction in time to award. And because it's a consortium based competition for these kinds of prototyping efforts, the barrier to entry for small and nontraditional, for startups, even for academic institutions to be able to compete for these kinds of prototyping has really lowered. These types of partnerships that we've been working through on spec have really helped us work with smaller companies who might not have the background or expertise in dealing with the government or in working with cyber security for their systems, both our developmental systems and the systems that they're designing and trying to build. We want to provide ways for companies large and small to partner together in support kind of mutually beneficial relationships between all. Recently at the Annual Air Force Association conference that I mentioned earlier, I moderated a panel with several space industry leaders, all from big traditional defense contractors, by the way. And they all stressed the importance of building bridges and partnerships between major contractors in the defense industry and new entrance. And that helps us capture the benefits of speed and agility that come with small companies and startups, as well as the expertise and specialized skill sets of some of those larger contractors that we rely on day in and day out. Advanced cyber security protections and utilization of secure facilities are just a couple of things that I think we could be prioritizing more so in those collaborations. As I mentioned earlier, the SPEC has been very successful in awarding a number of different prototyping contracts and large dollar values. And it's just going to get better. There's over 400 members of the space enterprise consortium, 80% of them are non traditional kinds of vendors. And we just love working with them. Another thing that many people in the audience may be familiar with in terms of our outreach to innovators, if you will, and innovators that include cyber security experts is our space pitch day events. So we held our first event last November in San Francisco, where we awarded over a two day period about $46 million to 30 different companies that had potentially game changing ideas. These were phase two small business innovative research efforts that we awarded with cash on the spot. We're planning on holding our second space pitch day in the spring of 2021. We're planning on doing it right here in Los Angeles, COVID-19 environment permitting. And we think that these are fantastic venues for identifying and working with high-speed startups, and small businesses who are interested in really, truly partnering with the US Air Force. It's, as I said before, it's a really exciting time to be a part of this business. And working with the innovation economy is something that the Department of Defense really needs to do in that the innovation that we used to think was ours. That 80% of the industrial base innovation that came from the Department of Defense, the script has been flipped there. And so now more than 70%, particularly in space innovation comes from the commercial sector, not from the defense business itself. And so that's a tsunami of investment and a tsunami of a capability. And I need to figure out how to get my surfboard out and ride it, you know what I mean? >> Yeah, It's one of those things where the script has been flipped, but it's exciting because it's impacting everything. When you're talking about systems architecture? You're talking about software, you're talking about a business model. You're talking about dev sec opsx from a technical perspective, but now you have a business model innovation. All the theaters are exploding in innovation, technical, business, personnel. This brings up the workforce challenge. You've got the cyber needs for the US Space Force, It's probably great ROI model for new kinds of software development that could be priced into contracts. That's a entrepreneurial innovation, you've got the business model theater, you've got the personnel. How does the industry adopt and change? You guys are clearly driving this. How does the industry adjust to you? >> Yeah. So I think a great way to answer that question is to just talk about the kind of people that we're trying to prioritize in the US Space Force from an acquisition perspective, and in this particular case from a cybersecurity perspective. As I mentioned earlier, it's the most exciting time to be in space programs, really since the days of Apollo. Just to put it in terms that maybe have an impact with the audience. From 1957 until today, approximately 9,000 satellites have been launched from the various space varying countries around the planet. Less than 2000 of those 9,000 are still up on orbit and operational. And yet in the new space regime players like Space X have plans to launch, 12,000 satellites for some of their constellations alone. It really is a remarkable time in terms of innovation and fielding of space capabilities and all of those space capabilities, whether they're commercial, civil, or defense are going to require appropriate cybersecurity protections. It's just a really exciting time to be working in stuff like this. And so folks like the folks in this audience who have a passion about space and a passion about cybersecurity are just the kind of people that we want to work with. Cause we need to make sure our systems are secure and resilient. We need folks that have technical and computing expertise, engineering skills to be able to design cyber secure systems that can detect and mitigate attacks. But we also, as you alluded to, we need people that have that business and business acumen, human networking background, so that we can launch the startups and work with the non traditional businesses. Help to bring them on board help, to secure both their data and our data and make sure our processes and systems are free as much as possible from attack. For preparation, for audience members who are young and maybe thinking about getting into this trade space, you got to be smart on digital networking. You got to understand basic internet protocols, concepts, programming languages, database design. Learn what you can for penetration or vulnerability testing and a risk assessment. I will tell you this, and I don't think he will, I know he will not mind me telling you this, but you got to be a lifelong learner and so two years ago, I'm at home evening and I get a phone call on my cell phone and it's my boss, the commander of Air Force Space command, General, J. Raymond, who is now currently the Chief of Space Operations. And he is on temporary duty, flying overseas. He lands where he's going and first thing he does when he lands is he calls me and he goes JT, while I was traveling, I noticed that there were eBooks available on the commercial airliner I was traveling on and there was an ebook on something called scrumming and agile DevSecOps. And I read it, have you read it? And I said, no, sir. But if you tell me what the title of the book is, I will read it. And so I got to go to my staff meeting, the very next week, the next time we had a staff meeting and tell everybody in the staff meeting, hey, if the four star and the three star can read the book about scrumming, then I'm pretty sure all of you around this table and all our lieutenants and our captains our GS13s, All of our government employees can get smart on the scrumming development process. And interestingly as another side, I had a telephone call with him last year during the holidays, where he was trying to take some leave. And I said, sir, what are you up to today? Are you making eggnog for the event tonight or whatever. And the Chief of Space Operations told me no, I'm trying to teach myself Python. I'm at lesson two, and it's not going so well, but I'm going to figure this out. And so that kind of thing, if the chief of staff or the Chief of Space Operations can prioritize scrumming and Python language and innovation in his daily schedule, then we're definitely looking for other people who can do that. And we'll just say, lower levels of rank throughout our entire space force enterprise. Look, we don't need people that can code a satellite from scratch, but we need to know, we need to have people that have a basic grasp of the programming basics and cybersecurity requirements. And that can turn those things into meaningful actions, obviously in the space domain, things like basic physics and orbital mechanics are also important spaces, not an intuitive domain. So under understanding how things survive on orbit is really critical to making the right design and operational decisions. And I know there's probably a lot, because of this conference. I know there's probably a whole lot of high speed cybersecurity experts out in the audience. And I need those people in the US Space Force. The country is counting on it, but I wouldn't discount having people that are just cyber aware or cyber savvy. I have contracting officers and logisticians and program managers, and they don't have to be high end cybersecurity experts, but they have to be aware enough about it to be able to implement cyber security protections into our space systems. So the skill set is really, really broad. Our adversaries are pouring billions of dollars into designing and fielding offensive and destructive space, cybersecurity weapons. They repeatedly shown really a blatant disregard of safety and international norms for good behavior on orbit. And the cyber security aspects of our space systems is really a key battleground going forward so that we can maintain that. As I mentioned before, peaceful global comments of space, we really need all hands on deck. If you're interested in helping in uniform, if you're interested in helping, not in uniform, but as a government employee, a commercial or civil employee to help us make cyber security more important or more able to be developed for our space systems. And we'd really love to work with you or have you on the team to build that safe and secure future for our space systems. >> Lieutenant General John Thompson, great insight. Thank you for sharing all that awesome stories too, and motivation for the young next generation. The United States Space Force approach to cybersecurity. Really amazing talk, thank you for your time. Final parting question is, as you look out and you have your magic wand, what's your view for the next few years in terms of things that we could accomplish? It's a super exciting time. What do you hope for? >> So first of all, John, thanks to you and thanks to Cal Poly for the invitation and thanks to everybody for their interest in cybersecurity, especially as it relates to space systems, that's here at the conference. There's a quote, and I'll read it here from Bernard Schriever, who was the founder, if you will, a legend in a DoD space, the founder of the Western development division, which was a predecessor organization to Space and Missile System Center, General Schriever, I think captures the essence of how we see the next couple of years. "The world has an ample supply of people "who can always come up with a dozen good reasons "why new ideas will not work and should not be tried, "but the people who produce progress are breed apart. "They have the imagination, "the courage and the persistence to find solutions." And so I think if you're hoping that the next few years of space innovation and cybersecurity innovation are going to be upon a pony ride at the County fair, then perhaps you should look for another line of work, because I think the next few years in space and cybersecurity innovation are going to be more like a rodeo and a very dynamic rodeo as it goes. It is an awesome privilege to be part of this ecosystem. It's really an honor for me to be able to play some small role in the space ecosystem and trying to improve it while I'm trying to improve the chances of the United States of America in a space war fighting environment. And so I thank all of you for participating today and for this little bit of time that you've allowed me to share with you. Thank you. >> Sir, thank you for your leadership and thank you for the time for this awesome event, Space and Cyber Cybersecurity Symposium 2020, I'm John Furrier on behalf of Cal Poly, thanks for watching. (mellow music)

>>From around the globe. It's the cube with digital coverage of Veem on 2020 brought to you by beam. >>Hi buddy. Welcome back to Veem on 2020. My name is Dave Vellante and you're watching the cubes coverage of EMR. This is the first time we've done it. Virtual VIMANA. We've got the, the Veem power panel, bill large and CEO, Jim Kruger, the CMO, Danny Allen. Who's the CTO and senior vice president product strategy. All I have been on earlier guys. Great to see you. Thanks for coming back. digging out of the power panel. Appreciate it. Good. Thank you. Okay. I want to start off a bill. you're going to get a business update, you know we've so I talk a lot about COVID. We can go back to that, but you guys, Mmm. You know, as a private company, you divulge more information. Yeah. Then most private companies. And we appreciate that as an independent guys, if you would bring up that, that one slide, you know, you shared this publicly well earlier. >>I mean, you guys are in a, okay. Billion in revenue now, 21% annual recurring revenue growth. We're going to 75,000 customers, 97% year on year increase in your universal, uh, license bookings. Mmm. Everything seems to be happening. Bill. What, uh, what can you tell us? Well, we had eight. Yeah. We had a great first quarter also that we kicked off where we had, or a transaction with, um, insight venture partners, which, and written the middle of a right in the middle of that quarter. At the end of it, we had that activity that went on, I think would have disrupted, did the business. It didn't land for Q1, really excited about that. We announced our growth, so that here recently, uh, pumped into our row pumped into our second quarter. We, we managed to transition everybody out of offices. We probably add seven per cent of our work for 75% of our work course. >>It needs to move. Yeah, they did that. We had a fantastic April. We're having a very good may. So it's just a great start, uh, with a great customer base. So I'm really excited about it. Okay. You mentioned insight. We obviously covered that. Mmm. Boarded on that. Okay. Insight. They like growth, you know, not like the old school, private equity, you know, suck money out. They want growth options down the road, personality. Maybe it's a rule of 40 rule, you know, the type of company. So that's gotta be exciting, uh, for you guys and your employees. Yeah. I think it's pretty exciting. We've been around a few of us. Who've been around the insight team since 2002. So, uh, a very well known a group of individuals to us. Yeah. Uh, they are focused in the software space and know the infrastructure space really well. >>Uh, my triple that hour, um, our lead on the insight team and his, um, his staff is that's move into, as we move into it, stepping up and moving into our Andrew very revenue focus versus part of a total contract. Bye. Nice. A nice resource to have for things that we might want to do in the future related acquisitions. So we're really excited about it. I mean, if I'm in VC right now, I'm looking at SAS, I'm looking and the software I'm looking for companies that have a, uh, an annual recurring revenue model I'm looking for adoption then. Okay. Okay. And those kinds of cases. Yeah. Do you guys fit that bill? Yeah. There may be a larger size and obviously the early stage startup, but that's kind of the profile of the the company that you want to invest in, in the 2020s, isn't it? >>Absolutely. And I'd also say it's the kind of company we want to invest in, in the future as we go forward to bring in new technologies and expand markets, addressable market, uh, back to comments, we had discussions owner, what's it look like in 2030? And it's like, yeah. Places we're heading. Yeah. Okay. So Danny, Pat Gelsinger is famous on the cube for saying that, look, if you don't ride the waves, can it be yup. Driftwood. So what are the mega trends that you guys are riding, uh, today and that you're seeing in the future? Good. We'll keep you ahead of the pack. Well, we clearly talk a lot about cloud data management. So act two for us is not just moving from perpetual licensing to subscription and evolving with American at a business level. It's also at a technical level. And so we invested heavily, as you know, we demoed earlier today, Veeam backup for office three six, five version. >>Hi, an important point act two for us is not just product. There's also product delivery. That's version, hi of a relief of a product to chemo three years ago. So the backup profits, three 65, we showed you Veem backup for AWS. And you saw from Anton as well, uh, supporting Google cloud storage and supporting all of the major, um, providers. So for us to not just ride the wave, but actually be ahead of everyone else it's to embrace cloud data management and give the customers what they really need. Well, I think you guys are in a unique position too. I mean, you know, if you're, if you, you guys obviously sell on prem, but if you're, there are not prem infrastructure, the company that really living on box margins, um, you know, you can talk the cloud talk, but it's not necessarily a tailwind. Where are you guys? >>So Danny, how is cloud, wait, how cloud is it tailwind of, you know, versus some of the other legacy players? Well, Veem has always been, we always highlight simple, flexible, reliable, but one of the, the parts of flexible of course, is being software defined. And we've been software defined from the very beginning. And if you're in a world where you have to go take a box, plug it into the data center and rack and stack it and do hi, okay. Be there physically. You're not going to survive in this type of environment. So being software defined help desk, not only when the data center, but to help our customers as they go through that evolution. Okay. On prem too, maybe just storing backups in the cloud to actually running their workloads in the cloud. >>Well, so Jim, I want to, I want to turn it to you sort of, I'm thinking about the Veeam brand. Uh, I, we talked earlier about how you guys have always punched above your weight, famous parties and sofa, but now billion dollars now entering a new era. Oh, wait. Yeah. It's ironic that we're now doing virtual events. Okay. No big giant party this year, but I feel like, I mean, you guys are what 14 year old company now. Okay. Kind of growing up your three and your colleagues are bringing, you know, lots of adult supervision. How should we think about, okay. Okay. The or V brand going forward. Yeah, no, I think the, the beam brand is critically important because, uh, there's just a, such a strong affinity and connection with customers. And I think one of the challenges as you get larger and go from 1 billion to 2 billion, a lot of companies miss the beat relative to staying connected to their customers. >>And that's something that we're putting a tremendous amount of focused on that first slide that you see, you flashed up no 91% customer satisfaction, the 75 net promoter score, which is three and a half times industry average. I think our key to success is, is not only bringing great products, the market, but looking at the holistic picture relative to supporting customers and customer satisfaction, which is a key driver of the company. Uh, well, it will help us to continue to build on the brands and, and have, you know, the, the best brand in the market. Well, I w I want to come back to, is the good, the marketing was in the, the panel. I mean, you think about digital. We feel like the war is going to be one in digital in the next a decade. I take the, you pick the GNC example and you think about just even the term, like customer relationship management, you know, we all use CRM systems. >>Yeah. I'm not sure I want to a relationship. Okay. GNC, but I do know this, I want a good deal. Right. If they're going to make me an offer, I'm going to, I'm going to look at that. And, Oh, these other brands, uh, that's digital that is having infrastructure and data, that's obviously protected to be able to offer that at the right time. Awesome. Versus if they can take advantage of it and have the candles. I wonder if you could talk about it, what you see as a, a marketing pro just in terms of digital and, and that customer intimacy. Yeah. Yeah. So, so I think it it's a multifaceted, I think one of the key things that, that, again, Veeam does, that's different than other, uh, companies is that we, we have a direct connection with our customers. So yeah, in our head of product management sends out an update every Sunday, and it goes into quite a bit of detail around sort of how to deploy this, how to deploy that. >>Oh, really? Yeah. Creating a digital journey for the customer from a marketing perspective, because yeah. Like within any situation, no, you, you don't want to talk to a salesperson right off the bat because you know, they're going to try to sell you. Uh, so you want to do something investigation, you need the, the contents and information to help you move along that journey until you get to the point where, okay, now it's time, I've kind of narrowed it down and I need to talk to someone to give me some more information. So I look at, you know, one of the key differentiators of Veem is, is that digital promise, uh, which I think from the founding of the company that rattler put into place, uh, here it is as forward. And when we continue to put a lot of focus on that digital experience, which I think gives us definitely a leg up on the competition. >>So bill, you got to place bets as the CEO. I'm interested in where you're placing bets. I mean, you've yeah. Okay. Some pretty substantial investments in the, your partner, a network. Oh, you've got some big names partners that are okay, you're moving a lot of products, you know, through those guys, obviously your heritage as a company is, is okay. Technical development. Uh, you, you are very successful sales organization, but where are you placing your chips on the table these days? And maybe especially in the context of, of this pandemic, if anything changed in your thinking. Yeah. Well, the vets will always be placed on the product side of it. Yeah. That's a, that's a big products. You go partners and you go our employees and those are the big bets that will make, what are we doing on the partner side work, continuing yeah. Pretty aggressive activity and making sure these partners have a simpler place as I've discussed. >>Yeah. Before to do business with them. It's more challenging the larger unit. Yeah. Yeah. But yeah, we'll keep that focus on it. The product offering has been, again, always go back to any of our taglines. It just works, but it's in the lab, we're going to win. We're going to win that technical decision a process. And then we're putting it up pretty big bets on our employee base. We're all over the world. 4,300. Yeah. The, uh, I think the decisions we have, like a lot of companies have moving forward are going to be, where are you going to work from? You're going to work from that home office. Are you're going to combine it back into the office or are you going to not, you're just going to do, you know, you're going to go back the way things are. I don't think that's going to happen at all. >>So, so best will always be on bringing good product to market technical decisions. So let's, let's talk to Andy about the product. Um, I mean, you've, by saying you've grown up, you've gone from yeah. Relatively narrow yup. Portfolio to now expanding a lot of different use cases, many, many, you know, several different clouds on prem hybrid. Yeah. Et cetera. Mmm. How do you ensure it, Danny, from, uh, from, uh, product stamp, right. That you don't just get a, a collection of point product that you actually have yep. Platform that even, you know, for instance, your licensing model very easily bored. Yeah. That notion, um, how, how do you ensure that you're more of a platform if you will, than just that a bunch of selection of product, the answer to that would be focused maniacal focus. So it's interesting that you brought up licensing. So one of the things that we're very focused on is making that licensing can move across all these different types of infrastructure. >>So no, the universal license allows you to do that. You can move a workload from physical to virtual, to cloud, to back, um, the application services call with, uh, with his hang the license. But we also do that product level too. One of the interesting things that we've been focused on is it's something internally, we call it the Veeam integration platform that enables you to have a central common control playing across the entire organization. But yet you can deploy in the need of environments that make the most sense. So if you think about what we showed you earlier today with beam backup rate Ws, you're running on a, an interface that you deploy out of the AWS marketplace, but that product actually integrate back into Veem availability suite. So that's true of being backup for AWS, Roger being backup from Nutanix. Every time we, we add a new one capability platform, whether it's fast or virtual or wow, we make sure that it's still cause that central connection to the main control plane. >>And that's why we call this five data management, because it gives you that data management cross all of these different infrastructures. Okay. It's clearly not easy to do, but the focus that we have put on this result, then our customers, the class. Okay. Ultimately, so I want to ask you guys about culture, Jim, a start with you. I mean, a lot of people obviously, sorry, averted or asking, I'm still going to have parties. Uh, you got your two founders and sort of, you know, set good, you know, rat mirror would always be right there in the mix lap. Last one to leave, uh, you know, very hard charging and that's kind of steep. the Veem culture, but I'm interested in, and if, if there's been any sort of discernible change, as you get bigger and bigger, how you're able to maintain that culture, you know, w what are some of the things that you want to, I want to keep, and maybe some of the things that you want to evolve. >>Yeah, no great question. And I think culture is, um, I'm a big believer. Yeah. That culture can really differentiate a company in the marketplace. And I think themes culture, uh, in the past has really done that effectively. And I think that's, you know, it shows in the success of the company. So I definitely see it as, you know, as my job, along with the rest of the executive team continued to, to carry that torch forward. Uh, one of the things that I learned coming to beam was, was really winning the hearts and minds of, of the, the, you know, the customers that you're serving. And so that, that can be anything from a party, uh, being totally open to your customers, listening to your customers. I've given them different channels to give you a feedback and just being a company that's easy to do business with. I think it's critically important. And those are some of the key things from a cultural perspective. Uh, that's how we want to carry forward. You mentioned car charging, absolutely being, being aggressive in the marketplace, uh, but bringing solutions to market that really hit the sweet spot. Oh. Relative to customer need, I think is again, one of the, the cultural pieces and that maniacal focus on customer satisfaction, which is absolutely key. >>So, uh, well, I, I wonder bill, if you could comment, maybe in this context, you know, part of your job of course, is Tam expansion traditionally been a, a European based company moving. So the U S I'm curious as to what effect that will have both culturally, you know, and on Tam as well. You're extremely successful, uh, in, in overseas. Oh, of course. So there's maybe even more penetration within the U S and obviously, you know, throughout the call, we've certainly talked a lot about cloud, but maybe your thoughts on it. Okay. Yeah, no, thanks very much. Hopefully you see no impact on culture, in the sense of our move from a European headquarters to a U S headquarters. We definitely felt it important to bring it and U S headquarters in place. We now have moved all us shareholders. Uh, so it's really our culture, but built on yeah. >>Core values back in 2012, that really the everything else branches off of innovate and iterate it's about everybody sells. We clearly add that yeah. A goal for everyone in the company and yeah. And the fact that we also want to win. So we'll fight hard to win bringing it to the U S okay. A lot of our competitors are based in the U S we think we can put up, uh, even though we've got great numbers against all our competitors, we'll even bring the fight much harder. Now that we're in the United States as a headquarter place, change nothing else internationally, globally. So Danny, every I'll five or seven years or so, you know, Gartner or IDC or whomever, but the service is that we just did a survey. Yeah. X percent of the customers are going to rethink their backup. That is in the next 24 months. >>You see that literally every half a decade. Um, so w w what's what's the driving that now, I mean, certainly cloud is a, is it which factor? Sure. Edge. We're going to be talking about the edge for the next many, many years. And then, and it's really going to start to drive revenue at some point kind of like the cloud was 10 years ago. Uh, but so talk about how you guys sort of stay relevant in that conversation and what customers should be about in terms of those transitions. Well, you know, every customer says I'm going to reevaluate my backup solution five or seven years, but the reality is what's happened. Yeah. Industry itself goes through transition. So we go from physical to virtual and as they go to virtual, for example, they say, Hey, I can't use my legacy providers. So I'm going to choose a new one. >>They choose Veeam. And then of course, we go to cloud and we're going to go to containers and we're going to go to edge. And every time he goes through those iterations, there is an opportunity four, the next generation of wow. Form, uh, to emerge. And so beam's focus here is to make sure that we're ahead of those trends to make sure we're thinking ahead of our customers. So right now, for example, you know, I, I spent an hour in order to, in the amount of time thinking about cloud and containers so that when the customer gets there, when they get the edge, when they get through all of these things, but they have a data management platform that protects them. And step one is always going to be the same. I always say the step one for, for every iteration of infrastructure is just ingest the data because you need to protect it. >>It's only after you protected and begin to manage it, be integrated into the business. Can you be into unleashed, but we go through this cycle over and over again. And ultimately it's the, it's the, the vendor, it's the partner that is most trusted, that wins as Jim alluded to our NPS scores for themselves, our customer base. Great, sorry, uh, self our, our intimacy with the customers. Great. Awesome. So, yeah, as long as we keep that close connection, then we think we're well positioned to the lead as we go through the next iteration of infrastructure. Okay. Let's talk about the competition, Danny. Let's stay with you. Okay. Okay. You've got some, well-funded not even startups anymore. Know the companies that are kind of going after the base. You've got a huge install base okay. Of legacy companies. I mean, I think it's easier for, for some of those guys to attack, you know, sort of a box space, the solution, you guys are more software, but I'm sort of interested in, in your take Danny on the shiny new toys and that have obviously have momentum in the marketplace. >>Yeah. You know, the, the shiny new toys, they come out with a solution that is very packaged up and black box. You can't actually, uh, customize it very much for the user need. And that's, we don't believe that that's going to work in the longterm. And the reason I say that, okay, the pandemic we're in, if you can't go into the data center to rack and stack a box, if you can't actually working with the infrastructure that's already in place, then you're not positioned to work well in the longterm. And, and so we have this unfair advantage we've been around for over a decade. We integrate with over 45 different it's storage vendors. That's not including the wild vendors, you know, all of our partners. And so we do have an unfair advantage with a history of all of these integrations, but, but that flexibility is really what our customers need. >>They don't want to be law into the data center. They don't know two, three years from now, their strategy might change. They might say, take the workload, moving to the cloud. And so if your whole focus is on selling your customers, something that I used them to their data center, that in itself is a challenge. And being software defined we're, we're well positioned to make future for any evolutions that happen in the market. Okay. So we're in a good place. I'm, you know, well, knock on wood, but I think we're going to keep going. Yeah. That's an interesting answer. Not one that I expected. Okay. Got it. Makes sense. In the context. Good QA we had with Andy Jassy a while ago. Yeah. Kind of pushing them on, you know, the zillion API APIs. And he basically had a similar answer. Obviously cloud services is different, but essentially saying, we don't know where the market's going. >>So we want to have very granular roll. Yeah. You're kind of a primitive level, uh, so that we have that flexibility and maybe there's trade off, you know, sometimes just in terms of what you called out of the box, but it's a very handy Jessie like answer, it sort of strikes me. Hm. Well, it's certainly true that the, you know, customers don't know a year from now, uh, they've been using that hardware, but a year from now two years from now, we run into another market impediment. They might want that money back. They might want, you might want flexibility to expand into it, different geography or take advantage of it, the advantage of the elasticity of the cloud and buying a piece of hardware. Just the very fact that you buy hardware that essentially ties you into that hardware, at least three years, probably being software defined. >>You can continue to reuse and leverage all the assets that you've already had committing to a lock-in okay. Period of time. So, so from a, from a marketing standpoint, Jim strategy, brand customer intimacy, what sure you're ready. Well, Dan, you already talked a little bit about it in terms of, uh, you know, kind of the, the three cornerstones of, of, of how we think our simplicity, flexibility and reliability. And, you know, as bill talked about, you know, when, when we get into now into a customer, and if they're testing us out trial in us out nine times out of 10, we're going to win, uh, because they see, they see those three key things and those three key things, uh, we hear on a daily basis from our customers and how important that is. So we continue to build out on each of those, uh, the challenges, keeping it simple. >>And that's an area that we have to continue to focus on. Uh, but I think those are the key differentiators for us going forward. I think the flexibility piece as the integration with all the storage, our ecosystem of partners, well, we have, I think, close to 40 partners that are sponsoring, uh, the on here. Uh, so that's a, that that's a key differentiator because we, we work with basically everybody we're agnostic, uh, and again, just easy to do business with an, a true partner. Okay. I got it. I got one more question for Danny and then I want to, I want to ask, well, it was, but okay. Guys, feel free to chime in on this one as well. But some of the things we haven't talked about, well, Danny, uh, containers protecting containers, uh, the edge, you know, these are all sort of emerging opportunities. >>I know you've got some, yes. You know, on the container side, the edge is early days. There's, you know, whole new models of, you know, potentially a lot of data going to be, we created unclear how much it's going to have to be persisted, but certainly would that much data, you know, the IDC forecasts, a lot of it's going to have to be. So your thoughts on some of those other emerging trends that we haven't talked. Okay. Well, the key to this segment of America are our partners. Trust us. We're thinking about this ahead of when they will actually need it. And you're right. I think we're early days in containers. I think we're early days in edge. We don't know, you know, we have a partner ducks unlimited where they're storing data for 60 years, use it from IOT sensors and they keep it for 60 years because they don't know in the future, if that data is going to be relevant. >>And so our focus is to make sure that we're ahead of our customer base in terms of thinking of it. And then yeah, making sure that our platform supports what they need as they need it. You want to be careful about going too far in advance sometimes in the industry to hear about, you know, people who are talking about magic 60 Dustin's solving, okay. Crazy problems that our customers don't actually have. We're very pragmatic. We want to make sure that problems that we're addressing that are platform fundamentally addresses where they are today. And then also be in those discussions with them about where they're going to be tomorrow. Well, maybe some of that magic pixie dust go, go into the COVID vaccine. That would be good. >>They'll bring us home. So, you know, the virtual forklifts are breaking down, came on 2220. What are the big takeaways from Europe? Your first Vivaan as CEO, we've been to many, um, you know, I know, but w what are the big takeaways as the, as the virtual trucks are pulling away? Yeah. Thanks very much for asking that question. We, uh, you know, we did do our first VM on, in 2014, and I can still remember when rat came, I mean said, let's, let's do this. And it's like, Oh, you've got it. Excuse me. This is going to cost a fortune. Why would we ever end? And then he's obviously right. It continues to be right. So, Hey, the story about Veem is gross. And when you're growing, you got funds available. People interested you to innovate. You mentioned containers. Danny did also at Kubernetes and, you know, we've got our forensic cast and that are here with us. >>And yeah, those are all important relationships and will continue to develop relationships. Yes. Cool., uh, we've supported, we've got great customers. we have a gross engine. We're going to continue that we don't plan on being comfortable with where we are. We'll continue to enter it in, go after it. Mmm. Additional Tam, but we'll also take care of that core base we came from. So I'm really excited about yeah. And a lot of great breakout sessions. Uh, I keep, um, right. Yeah. Coobernetti's was on, there was a lot of great ones. I did like the one though. And it was like, fall in love with tape all over again. So when I first saw that they brought it, I went running from my age, correct dates and my John Fogarty NCCR, I found one. Uh, so, uh, had to get readjusted to not. So in any event, I do think we like to have a lot of fun. >>You'll see that we get back. Yeah. Yeah. See where we go. As far as the virtual versus it, an onsite. Yeah. A in the future, we landing on site when, and if so, you'll and you're there. You'll cool. We'll be at the party. Yeah, indeed. And I, but I do think there's going to be some learnings that we carry forward and, you know, I think for awhile and maybe even perfect quite a long time, there'll be some kind of hybrid going on with the same deliver, delivering a hybrid world. Guys. Thanks so much for coming to the cube, making this a successful power panel. It was really a pleasure having you. Great. Thanks for having me. Thanks. Thank you for watching everybody. This is Dave Volante for the cube. Keep it right. There are tenuous coverage, the mom, 2024, right back.

>> Narrator: From around the globe, it's theCUBE. With digital coverage of VeeamON 2020. Brought to you by Veeam. >> Hi everybody, welcome back to VeeamON 2020. My name is Dave Vellante, and you're watching theCUBE's coverage of VeeamON. This is the first time we've done Virtual VeeamON. We've got the Veeam power panel, Bill Largent, CEO, Jim Krueger, the CMOs, Danny Allen who's the CTO and Senior Vice President Product Strategy. All have been on earlier, guys great to see you. Thanks for coming back and digging out of the power panel. Appreciate it. >> Good. >> Thank you Dave. >> I'm glad to be here. >> Thank you Okay, I want to start off, Bill, get a business update. We've so I talk a lot about COVID. We can go back to that, but you guys, as a private company, you divulge more information, than most private companies. And we appreciate that as an independent but guys, if you would bring up that one slide. You shared this publicly a little earlier. I mean, you guys are a billion in revenue now, 21% annual recurring revenue growth, 375,000 customers, 97% year on year increase in your universal license bookings. Everything seems to be happening, Bill. What what can you tell us? >> Well we had a great first quarter also that we kicked off where we had our transaction with insight venture partners, which right in the middle of that quarter, at the end of it, we had that activity that went on, that one might think would have disrupted the business, it didn't, we had our plan for Q1, really excited about that. We announced our growth saw that here recently. We're really pumped into our second quarter. We managed to transition everybody out of offices. We probably had 75% of our workforce move. Yeah, they did that. We had a fantastic April. We're having a very good May. So it's just a great start with a great customer base. So I'm really excited about it. >> Yeah, you mentioned insight. We obviously covered that and reported on that. Insight, they like growth, not like the old school private equity, suck money out. They want growth, they want options down the road (mumbles) Maybe it's a rule of 40 rule, the type of company. So that's got to be exciting for you guys and your employees. >> Yeah, I think it's pretty exciting. Few of us have been around the insight team since 2002. So a very well known group of individuals to us. They are focused in the software space and know the infrastructure space really well. My triple that hour our lead on the insight team and his his staff is that's a move into, as we move into it, stepping up and moving into our very revenue focus versus part of a total contract. But nice resource to have for things that we might want to do in the future related acquisitions. So we're really excited about it. >> I mean, if I'm in VC right now, I'm looking at SaaS, I'm looking and it's software, I'm looking for companies that have an annual recurring revenue model I'm looking for adopting of products and those kinds of of KPI's and you guys fit that bill Maybe a larger size and obviously in the early stage startup but that's kind of the profile of the the company that you want to invest in 2020s, isn't it? >> Absolutely, and I'd also say it's the kind of company we want to invest in, in the future as we go forward to bring in new technologies and expand markets. Addressable market back to comments, we had discussions on, what's it look like in 2030? And it's like, okay, those are we're heading. >> So Danny, Pat Gelsinger is famous on theCUBE for saying that, look, if you don't ride the waves, can it become driftwood. So what are the mega trends that you guys are riding today and that you're seeing in the future? We'll keep you ahead of the pack. >> Well, we clearly talk a lot about cloud data management. So act two for us is not just moving from perpetual licensing to subscription and evolving with American at a business level. It's also at a technical level. And so we invested heavily, as we demoed earlier today, Veeam backup for Office 365 version 5. An important point act two for us is not just product. There's also product delivery. That's version 5 of a release of a product to that came out three years ago. So the backup for office 365, we showed you Veeam backup for AWS. And you saw from Anton as well supporting Google cloud storage and supporting all of the major cloud providers. So for us to not just ride the wave, but actually be ahead of everyone else it's to embrace cloud data management and give the customers what they really need. >> Well, I think you guys are in a unique position too. I mean, if you guys obviously sell on-prem, but if you're they're an on-prem infrastructure company, really living on box margins you can talk the cloud talk, but it's not necessarily a tailwind for you guys? So Danny, how is cloud, right how cloud is it tailwind for Veeam versus some of the other legacy players, >> Well, Veeam has always been, we always highlight simple, flexible, reliable, but one of the, the parts of flexible of course, is where it's being software defined. And we've been software defined from the very beginning. And if you're in a world where you have to go take a box, plug it into the data center and rack and stack it and be there physically. You're not going to survive in this type of environment. So being software defined help us, not only when the data center, but to help our customers as they go through that evolution. On-prem too, maybe just storing backups in the cloud, actually running the workloads in the cloud and protecting there. >> Well, so Jim I want to turn it to you sort of thinking about the Veeam brand. we talked earlier about how you guys have always punched above your weight, famous parties and so forth, but now billion dollars now entering a new era. It's ironic that we're now doing virtual events. So no big giant party this year, but I feel like, I mean, you guys are what, 14-year old company now, and kind of grown up you three and your colleagues are bringing you lots of adult supervision. How should we think about the VeeamON or Veeam brand going forward? >> Yeah, no, I think the Veeam brand is critically important because there's just such a strong affinity and connection with customers. And I think one of the challenges as you get larger and go from 1 billion to 2 billion, a lot of companies miss the beat relative to staying connected to their customers. And that's something that we're putting a tremendous amount of focus on that first slide that you flashed up no 91% customer satisfaction, a 75 net promoter score, which is three and a half times industry average. I think our key to success is not only bringing great products, the market, but looking at the holistic picture relative to supporting customers and customer satisfaction, which is a key driver of the company. well, it will help us to continue to build on the brands and have the best brand in the market. >> Well, what I want to come back to is the marketing whiz in the panel. I mean, you think about digital. We feel like the world is going to be one in digital in the next a decade. I take the pick the GNC example. And you think about just even a term like customer relationship management, we all use CRM systems. I'm not sure I want a relationship GNC, but I do know this, I want a good deal, right. If they're going to make me an offer, I'm going to look at that and these other brands, that's digital that is having infrastructure and data That's obviously protected to be able to offer that at the right time, for the right customer, so that they can take advantage of it and have the right candles. I wonder if you could talk about what you see as a marketing pro just in terms of digital and that customer intimacy. >> Yeah so I think it it's a multifaceted, I think one of the key things that again Veeam does that's different than other companies is that we, we have a direct connection with our customers. So in our head of product management sends out an update every Sunday, and it goes into quite a bit of detail around sort of how to deploy this, how to deploy that. And really creating a digital journey for the customer from a marketing perspective, because yeah, like within any situation, you don't want to talk to a salesperson right off the back because you know, they're going to try to sell you. So you want to do something investigation, you need the contents and information to help you move along that journey until you get to the point where, okay, now it's time, I've kind of narrowed it down and I need to talk to someone to give me some more information. So I look at one of the key differentiators of Veeam is that digital experience which I think from the founding of the company that Rattler put into place has carried us forward. And when we continue to put a lot of focus on that digital experience, which I think gives us definitely a leg up on the competition. >> So bill, you got to place bets as the CEO. I'm interested in where you're placing bets. I mean, you've made some pretty substantial investments in your partner network. You've got some big names partners that are okay, you're moving a lot of products through those guys, obviously your heritage as a company is steep. And technical development you are very successful sales organization, but sir, where are you placing your chips on the table these days? And maybe especially in the context of this pandemic, if anything changed in your thinking. >> Yeah, well the bets will always be placed on the product side of it. That's a big, so your products. You go partners and you go our employees and those are the big bets that will make, what are we doing on the partner side we're continuing pretty aggressive activity and making sure these partners have a simpler place as I've discussed before to do business with them. It's more challenging the larger we get. But yeah, we'll keep that focus on. The product offering has been a again, always go back to any of our taglines. It just works, put us in the lab, we're going to win. We're going to win that technical decision a process. And then we're putting it up pretty big bets on our employee base, we're all over the world 4,300. The I think the decisions we have, like a lot of companies have moving forward are going to be, where are you going to work from? You're going to work from that home office. So you're going to combine it back into the office or are you going to not, you're just going to yeah. Do you're going to go back the way things are. I don't think that's going to happen at all. So take bets will always be on bringing good product to market like technical decisions. >> So let's, let's talk to Andy about the product. I mean, you've I saying you've grown up, you've gone from yeah relatively narrow portfolio to now expanding a lot of different use cases, many several different clouds on-prem hybrid, et cetera. How do you ensure it, Danny, from product standpoint That you don't just get a, a collection of point product, but you actually have a platform that even, for instance, your licensing model very easily. support that notion, how do you ensure that more of a platform, if you will, then just the, a bunch of selection of product, >> The answer to that would be focused maniacal focus. So it's interesting that you brought up licensing. So one of the things that we're very focused on is making that licensing can move across all these different types of infrastructure. So the universal license allows you to do that. You can move a workload from physical to virtual, to cloud, to back the application services call with a single license. But we also do that product level too. One of the interesting things that we've been focused on is it's something internally, we call it the Veeam integration platform that enables you to have a central common control playing across the entire organization. But yet you can deploy in the need of environments that make the most sense. So if you think about what we showed you earlier today with beam backup rate AWS, you're running on an interface that you deploy out of the AWS marketplace, but that product actually integrate back into Veeam availability suite. So that's true of being backup for AWS, Roger being backup from Nutanix. Every time we add a new one capability platform, whether it's fast or virtual or cloud, we make sure that it's still cause that central connection to the main control plane. And that's why we call this five data management, because it gives you that data management cross all of these different infrastructures. It's clearly not easy to do, but the focus that we have good on this result, then our customers, ultimately, >> So I want to ask you guys about culture, Jim, I start with you, I mean, a lot of people, obviously story averted, or asking this theme, still going to have parties you got your two founders and sort of set good. Ratt would always be right there in the mix lap. Last one to leave very hard charging and that's kind of steep in the Veeam culture, but I'm interested in, and if there's been any sort of discernible change, as you get bigger and bigger, how you were able to maintain that culture, what are some of the things that you want to keep, and maybe some of the things that you want to evolve. >> Yeah, no great question. And I think culture is I'm a big believer. Yeah. That culture can really differentiate a company in the marketplace and I think themes culture in the past has really done that effectively. And I think that's it shows in the success of the company. So I definitely see it as as my job, along with the rest of the executive team to continue to, to carry that torch forward. one of the things that I learned coming to Veeam was, was really winning the hearts and minds of the customers that you're serving. And so that can be anything from a party being totally open to your customers, listening to your customers, I've given them different channels to give you a feedback and just being a company that's easy to do business with. I think it's critically important. And those are some of the key things from a cultural perspective that's how we want to carry forward. You mentioned car charging, absolutely being aggressive in the marketplace. but bringing solutions to market really hit the sweet spot Relative to customer need, I think is again, one of the cultural pieces and that maniacal focus on customer satisfaction, which is absolutely key. >> So well, I wonder Bill, if you could comment, maybe in this context part of your job of course, is an expansion traditionally been a European based company moving So the US I'm curious as to what effect that will have both culturally and on Tam as well. You're extremely successful in, in overseas. Oh, of course, so there's maybe even more penetration within the US and obviously throughout the call, we've certainly talked a lot about cloud, but maybe your thoughts on it. >> Okay, Well, thanks very much. Hopefully you see no impact on culture, in the sense of our move from a European headquarters to a US headquarters. We definitely felt it important to bring it a us headquarters in place. We now have moved all us shareholders. our culture is really the built on core values that we develop back in 2012, that really the everything else branches off of innovate and iterate it's about everybody sells. We clearly add that yeah. A goal for everyone in the company and the fact that we also want to win. So we'll fight hard to win bringing it to the US okay. A lot of our competitors are based in the US we think we can even though we've got great numbers against all our competitors, we'll even bring the fight much harder. Now that we're in the United States as a headquarter place, change nothing else internationally, globally. >> So Danny, every I'll five or seven years or so Gartner or IDC or whomever without a service is that we just did a survey that yeah. X percent of the customers are going to rethink their backup strategies in the next 24 months. You see that literally every half a decade. so, well what's, what's the driving that now. I mean, certainly cloud is it which factor edge we're going to be talking about the edge for the how many years, and then, and it's really going to start to drive revenue at some point kind of like the cloud was 10 years ago. but so talk about how you guys sort of, are they relevant conversation and what customers should be thinking about in terms of those transitions? >> Well every customer says I'm going to reevaluate my backup solution every five or seven years, but the reality is what's happened. Yeah. Industry itself goes through transition. So we go from physical to virtual and as they go to virtual, for example, they say, Hey, I can't use my legacy providers. So I'm going to choose a new one. They choose Veeam. And then of course, we go to cloud and we're going to go to containers and we're going to go to edge. And every time he goes through those iterations, there is an opportunity for the next generation of platform to emerge. And so beam's focus here is to make sure that we're ahead of those trends to make sure we're thinking ahead of our customers. So right now, for example I spent an in order to in amount of time thinking about cloud and containers so that when the customer gets there, when they get the edge, when they get do all of these things, but they have a data management platform that protects them. And step one is always going to be the same. I always say the step one for every iteration of infrastructure is just ingest the data because you need to protect it. It's only after you protected and begin to manage it, be integrated into the business. Can you be into unleashed, but we go through this cycle over and over again. And ultimately it's the, the vendor, it's the partner that is most trusted, that wins as, as Jim alluded to our NPS scores for themselves, our customer base, right, sorry self our intimacy with the customers. Great. Awesome. So as long as we keep that close connection, then we think we're well positioned to the lead as we go through the next iteration of infrastructure. Okay. Let's talk about the competition, Danny. >> Let's stay with you. Okay. You've got some, well-funded not even startups anymore. Okay. Companies that are kind of going after the base, you've got a huge install base okay Of legacy companies. I mean, I think it's easier for, for some of those guys to attack sort of a box space, the solution, you guys are more software, but I'm sort of interested in take Danny on why the shiny new toys and that have obviously have momentum in the marketplace. >> Yeah, the shiny new toys, they come out with a solution that is very packaged up and black box. You can't actually customize it very much for the user need. And that's, we don't believe that that's going to work in the longterm. And the reason I say that, okay, the pandemic we're in, if you can't go into the data center to rack and stack a box, if you can't actually working with the infrastructure that's already in place, then you're not positioned to work well in the longterm. And, and so we have this unfair advantage we've been around for over a decade. We integrate with over 45 different storage vendors. That's not including the wild vendors all of our partners. And so we do have an unfair advantage with a history of all of these integrations, but that flexibility is really what our customers need. They don't want to be law into the data center. They don't know two, three years from now, their strategy might change. They might say, take the workload, moving to the cloud. And so if your whole focus is on selling your customers , something that I used them to their data center, that in itself is a challenge. And being software defined we're well positioned to make future for any evolutions that happened in America. Okay. So we're in a good place. I'm well, knock on wood, but I think we're going to keep going. >> Yeah. That's an interesting answer. Not one that I expected, but it's to make sense in the context with a QA we had with Andy Jassy a while ago. I was Kind of pushing them on the zillion APIs. And he basically had a similar answer. Obviously cloud services is different, but essentially saying, we don't know where the market's going. So we want to have very granular role at You're kind of a primitive level so that we have that flexibility and maybe there's a trade off sometimes just in terms of what you called out of the box, but it's a very handy Jessie like answer, it sort of strikes me. >> Well, it's certainly true that the customers don't know a year from now they've been using that hardware, but a year from now two years from now, we run into another market impediment. They might want that money back. They might want, you might want flexibility to expand into it, different geography or take advantage of the elasticity of the cloud and buying a piece of hardware. Just the very fact that you buy hardware that essentially ties you into that hardware, at least three years, probably being software defined, you can continue to reuse and leverage all the assets that you've already had committing to a lock-in period of time. >> So from a, from a marketing standpoint, Jim strategy, brand customer intimacy, what you're in. >> Well, Dan, you already talked a little bit about it in terms of kind of the, the three cornerstones, of how we think our simplicity, flexibility, and reliability. And as bill talked about when we get into now into a customer, and if they're testing us out trial and us out nine times out of 10, we're going to win because they see those three key things and those three key things we hear on a daily basis from our customers and how important that is. So we continue to build out on each of those the challenges, keeping it simple. And that's an area that we have to continue to focus on. but I think those are the key differentiators for us going forward. I think the flexibility piece is the integration with all the storage, our ecosystem of partners. Well, we have I think close to 40 partners that are sponsoring the Amman here. so that's a, that's a key differentiator because we work with basically everybody we're agnostic. and again, just easy to do business with an, a true partner. >> I got it. I got one more question for Danny, and then I want to ask bill to close, but okay. Guys, feel free to chime in on this one as well. But some of the things we haven't talked about about money , Danny containers, protecting containers the edge these are all sort of emerging opportunities. I know you've got some, yes, on the container side, the edge is early days. There's whole new models of computing potentially a lot of data going to be, we created, okay. Unclear how much is going to have to be persistent, but certainly would that much data the IDC forecasts, a lot of it's going to have to be. So your thoughts on some of those other emerging trends that we haven't talked. >> Well, the key to this segment of America are our partners Trust us. We're thinking about this ahead of when they will actually need it. And you're right. I think we're early days in containers. I think we're early days in edge. We don't know we have a partner ducks unlimited where they're storing data for 60 years. Use it from IOT sensors, keep it for 60 years because they don't know in the future, if that data is going to be relevant. And so our focus is to make sure that we're ahead of our customer base in terms of thinking of it, and then making sure that our platform supports what they need as they need it. You want to be careful about going too far in advance. Sometimes in the industry you hear about people who are talking about magic 60, Dustin's solving Crazy problems that our customers don't actually have. We're very pragmatic. We want to make sure that problems that we're addressing that are platform fundamentally addresses where they are today. And then also be in those discussions with them about where they're going to be tomorrow. >> Well, maybe some of that magic pixie dust go into the COVID vaccine. That would be good. They'll bring us home. So the virtual forklifts are breaking down, came 20, 20. What are the big takeaways from Europe? Your first VeeamON as CEO, but what are the big takeaways as the virtual trucks are pulling away? >> Yeah. Thanks very much for asking that question. We you know, we did do our first VM on, in 2014, and I can still remember when Ratner came to, I mean, let's do this. And it's like, Oh, you've got it. Excuse me. This is going to cost a fortune. So why would we ever end? And then he's obviously a right. It continues to be right. So I hate the story about Veeam is gross. And when you're growing, you got funds available. People interested you to innovate. You mentioned containers. Danny did also at Kubernetes and we've got our forensic cast and that are here with us. And yeah, those are all important relationships and will continue to develop relationships and . But why Veeam we've supported, we've got great customers for it. We have a gross engine, we're going to continue that we don't plan on being comfortable with where we are. We'll continue to enter in, go after it. Additional Tam, but we'll also take care of that core base we came from. So I'm really excited about, we had a lot of yep. A lot of great breakout sessions. I keep right. Okay. K was on, there was a lot of great ones. I did like the one though. And it was like, fall in love with tape all over again. So when I first saw that they brought it, I went running from my age, correct tapes and my John Fogarty NCCR I've found one. so had to get readjusted to not. So in any event, I do think, Nope. We like to have a lot of fun. You'll see that we get back See where we go as far as the virtual versus an onsite in the future, we landing on site when, and if so, you'll, and you're there you'll, you will be at the party. >> Yeah, indeed. And I, but I do think there's going to be some learnings that we carry forward and I think for awhile and maybe even perfect quite a long time, there'll be some kind of hybrid going on with the seem to live in a hybrid world. Guys thanks so much for coming to theCUBE and making this a successful power panel. It was really a pleasure having you. >> Great. >> Thanks for having me. >> Thanks. >> Thank you for watching everybody. This is Dave Vellante for theCUBE. Keep it right here. There are tenuous coverage, the VeeamON 2020, right back. (slow instrumental music)