(bright music) >> Hello, everyone. Welcome back to live coverage day two or day one, day two for theCUBE, day one for the event. I'm John Furrier, host of theCUBE. It's the keynote analysis segment. Adam just finished coming off stage. I'm here with Dave Vellante and Zeus Kerravala, with principal analyst at ZK Research, Zeus, it's great to see you. Dave. Guys, the analysis is clear. AWS is going NextGen. You guys had a multi-day analyst sessions in on the pre-briefs. We heard the keynote, it's out there. Adam's getting his sea legs, so to speak, a lot of metaphors around ocean. >> Yeah. >> Space. He's got these thematic exploration as he chunked his keynote out into sections. Zeus, a lot of networking in there in terms of some of the price performance, specialized instances around compute, this end-to-end data services. Dave, you were all over this data aspect going into the keynote and obviously, we had visibility into this business transformation theme. What's your analysis? Zeus, we'll start with you. What's your take on what Amazon web service is doing this year and the keynote? What's your analysis? >> Well, I think, there was a few key themes here. The first one is I do think we're seeing better integration across the AWS portfolio. Historically, AWS makes a lot of stuff and it's not always been easy to use say, Aurora and Redshift together, although most customers buy them together. So, they announce the integration of that. It's a lot tighter now. It's almost like it could be one product, but I know they like to keep the product development separately. Also, I think, we're seeing a real legitimization of AWS in a bunch of areas where people said it wasn't possible before. Last year, Nasdaq said they're running in the cloud. The Options Exchange today announced that they're going to be moving to the cloud. Contact centers running the cloud for a lot of real time voice. And so, things that we looked at before and said those will never move to the cloud have now moved to the cloud. And I think, my third takeaway is just AWS is changing and they're now getting into areas to allow customers to do things they couldn't do before. So, if you look at what they're doing in the area of AI, a lot of their AI and ML services before were prediction. And I'm not saying you need an AI, ML to do prediction, was certainly a lot more accurate, but now they're getting into generative data. So, being able to create data where data didn't exist before and that's a whole new use case for 'em. So, AWS, I think, is actually for all the might and power they've had, it's actually stepping up and becoming a much different company now. >> Yeah, I had wrote that post. I had a one-on-one day, got used of the transcript with Adam Selipsky. He went down that route of hey, we going to change NextGen. Oh, that's my word. AWS Classic my word. The AWS Classic, the old school cloud, which a bunch of Lego blocks, and you got this new NextGen cloud with the ecosystems emerging. So, clearly, it's Amazon shifting. >> Yeah. >> But Dave, your breaking analysis teed out the keynote. You went into the whole cost recovery. We heard Adam talk about macro at the beginning of his keynote. He talked about economic impact, sustainability, big macro issues. >> Yeah. >> And then, he went into data and spent most of the time on the keynote on data. Tools, integration, governance, insights. You're all over that. You had that, almost your breaking analysis almost matched the keynote, >> Yeah. >> thematically, macro, cost savings right-sizing with the cloud. And last night, I was talking to some of the marketplace people, we think that the marketplace might be the center where people start managing their cost better. This could have an impact on the ecosystem if they're not in in the marketplace. So, again, so much is going on. >> What's your analogy? >> Yeah, there's so much to unpack, a couple things. One is we get so much insight from theCUBE community plus your sit down 101 with Adam Selipsky allowed us to gather some nuggets, and really, I think, predict pretty accurately. But the number one question I get, if I could hit the escape key a bit, is what's going to be different in the Adam Selipsky era that was different from the Jassy era. Jassy was all about the primitives. The best cloud. And Selipsky's got to double down on that. So, he's got to keep that going. Plus, he's got to do that end-to-end integration and he's got to do the deeper business integration, up the stack, if you will. And so, when you're thinking about the keynote and the spirit of keynote analysis, we definitely heard, hey, more primitives, more database features, more Graviton, the network stuff, the HPC, Graviton for HPC. So, okay, check on that. We heard some better end-to-end integration between the elimination of ETL between Aurora and Redshift. Zeus and I were sitting next to each other. Okay, it's about time. >> Yeah. >> Okay, finally we got that. So, that's good. Check. And then, they called it this thing, the Amazon data zones, which was basically extending Redshift data sharing within your organization. So, you can now do that. Now, I don't know if it works across regions. >> Well, they mentioned APIs and they have the data zone. >> Yep. And so, I don't know if it works across regions, but the interesting thing there is he specifically mentioned integration with Snowflake and Tableau. And so, that gets me to your point, at the end of the day, in order for Amazon, and this is why they win, to succeed, they've got to have this ecosystem really cranking. And that's something that is just the secret sauce of the business model. >> Yeah. And it's their integration into that ecosystem. I think, it's an interesting trend that I've seen for customers where everybody wanted best of breed, everybody wanted disaggregated, and their customers are having trouble now putting those building blocks together. And then, nobody created more building blocks than AWS. And so, I think, under Adam, what we're seeing is much more concerted effort to make it easier for customers to consume those building blocks in an easy way. And the AWS execs >> Yeah. >> I talked to yesterday all committed to that. It's easy, easy, easy. And I think that's why. (Dave laughing) Yeah, there's no question they've had a lead in cloud for a long time. But if they're going to keep that, that needs to be upfront. >> Well, you're close to this, how easy is it? >> Yeah. >> But we're going to have Adrian Cockcroft (Dave laughing) on at the end of the day today, go into one analysis. Now, that- >> Well, less difficult. >> How's that? (indistinct) (group laughing) >> There you go. >> Adrian retired from Amazon. He's a CUBE analyst retiree, but he had a good point. You can buy the bag of Lego blocks if you want primitives >> Yeah. >> or you can buy the toy that's glued together. And it works, but it breaks. And you can't really manage it, and you buy a new one. So, his metaphor was, okay, if the primitives allow you to construct a durable solutions, a lot harder relative to rolling your own, not like that, but also the simplest out-of-the box capability is what people want. They want solutions. We call Adam the solutions CEO. So, I think, you're going to start to see this purpose built specialized services allow the ecosystem to build those toys, so that the customers can have an out-of-the box experience while having the option for the AWS Classic, which is if you want durability, you want to tune it, you want to manage it, that's the way to go for the hardcore. Now, can be foundational, but I just see the solutions things being very much like an out-of-the-box. Okay, throw away, >> Yeah. >> buy a new toy. >> More and more, I'm saying less customers want to be that hardcore assembler of building blocks. And obviously, the really big companies do, but that line is moving >> Yeah. >> and more companies, I think, just want to run their business and they want those prebuilt solutions. >> We had to cut out of the keynote early. But I didn't hear a lot about... The example that they often use is Amazon Connect, the call center solution. >> Yeah. >> I didn't hear a lot to that in the keynote. Maybe it's happening right now, but look, at the end of the day, suites always win. The best of breed does well, (John laughing) takes off, generate a couple billion, Snowflake will grow, they'll get to 10 billion. But you look at Oracle, suites work. (laughs) >> Yeah. >> What I found interesting about the keynote is that he had this thematic exploration themes. First one was space that was like connect the dot, the nebula, different (mumbles) lens, >> Ocean. >> ask the right questions. (Dave laughing) >> Ocean was security which bears more, >> Yeah. >> a lot more needed to manage that oxygen going deep. Are you snorkeling? Are you scuba diving? Barely interesting amount of work. >> In Antarctica. >> Antarctica was the performance around how you handle tough conditions and you've got to get that performance. >> Dave: We're laughing, but it was good. >> But the day, the Ocean Day- >> Those are very poetic. >> I tweeted you, Dave, (Dave laughing) because I sit on theCUBE in 2011. I hate hail. (Dave laughing) It's the worst term ever. It's the day the ocean's more dynamic. It's a lot more flowing. Maybe 10 years too soon, Dave. But he announces the ocean theme and then says we have a Security Lake. So, like lake, ocean, little fun on words- >> I actually think the Security Lake is pretty meaningful, because we were listening to talk, coming over here talking about it, where I think, if you look at a lot of the existing solutions, security solutions there, I describe 'em as a collection of data ponds that you can view through one map, but they're not really connected. And the amount of data that AWS holds now, arguably more than any other company, if they're not going to provide the Security Lake, who is? >> Well, but staying >> Yeah. >> on security for a second. To me, the big difference between Azure and Amazon is the ecosystem. So, CrowdStrike, Okta, Zscaler, name it, CyberArk, Rapid7, they're all part of this ecosystem. Whereas Microsoft competes with all of those guys. >> Yes. Yeah. >> So it's a lot more white space than the Amazon ecosystem. >> Well, I want to get you guys to take on, so in your reaction, because I think, my vision of what what's happening here is that I think that whole data portion's going to be data as code. And I think, the ecosystem harvests the data play. If you look at AWS' key announcements here, Security Lake, price performance, they're going to optimize for those kinds of services. Look at security, okay, Security Lake, GuardDuty, EKS, that's a Docker. Docker has security problems. They're going inside the container and looking at threat detection inside containers with Kubernetes as the runtime. That's a little nuance point, but that's pretty significant, Dave. And they're now getting into, we're talking in the weeds on the security piece, adding that to their large scale security footprint. Security is going to be one of those things where if you're not on the inside of their security play, you're probably going to be on the outside. And of course, the price performance is going to be the killer. The networking piece surprise me. Their continuing to innovate on the network. What does that mean for Cisco? So many questions. >> We had Ajay Patel on yesterday for VMware. He's an awesome middleware guy. And I was asking about serverless and architectures. And he said, "Look, basically, serverless' great for stateless, but if you want to run state, you got to have control over the run time." But the point he made was that people used to think of running containers with straight VMs versus Fargate or Knative, if you choose, or serverless. They used to think of those as different architectures. And his point was they're all coming together. And it's now you're architecting and calling, which service you need. And that's how people are thinking about future architectures, which I think, makes a lot of sense. >> If you are running managed Kubernetes, which everyone's doing, 'cause no one's really building it in-house themselves. >> No. >> They're running it as managed service, skills gaps and a variety of other reasons. This EKS protection is very interesting. They're managing inside and outside the container, which means that gives 'em visibility on both sides, under the hood and inside the application layer. So, very nuanced point, Zeus. What's your reaction to this? And obviously, the networking piece, I'd love to get your thought. >> Well, security, obviously, it's becoming a... It's less about signatures and more of an analytics. And so, things happen inside the container and outside the container. And so, their ability to look on both sides of that allows you to happen threats in time, but then also predict threats that could happen when you spin the container up. And the difficulty with the containers is they are ephemeral. It's not like a VM where it's a persistent workload that you can do analysis on. You need to know what's going on with the container almost before it spins up. >> Yeah. >> And that's a much different task. So, I do think the amount of work they're doing with the containers gives them that entry into that and I think, it's a good offering for them. On the network side, they provide a lot of basic connectivity. I do think there's a role still for the Ciscos and the Aristas and companies like that to provide a layer of enhanced network services that connects multicloud. 'Cause AWS is never going to do that. But they've certainly, they're as legitimate network vendor as there is today. >> We had NetApp on yesterday. They were talking about latency in their- >> I'll tell you this, the analyst session, Steven Armstrong said, "You are going to hear us talk about multicloud." Yes. We're not going to necessarily lead with it. >> Without a mention. >> Yeah. >> But you said it before, never say never with Amazon. >> Yeah. >> We talk about supercloud and you're like, Dave, ultimately, the cloud guys are going to get into supercloud. They have to. >> Look, they will do multicloud. I predict that they will do multicloud. I'll tell you why. Just like in networking- >> Well, customers are asking for it. >> Well, one, they have the, not by design, but by defaulter and multiple clouds are in their environment. They got to deal with that. I think, the supercloud and sky cloud visions, there will be common services. Remember networking back in the old days when Cisco broke in as a startup. There was no real shortest path, first thinking. Policy came in after you connected all the routers together. So, right now, it's going to be best of breed, low latency, high performance. But I think, there's going to be a need in the future saying, hey, I want to run my compute on the slower lower cost compute. They already got segmentation by their announcements today. So, I think, you're going to see policy-based AI coming in where developers can look at common services across clouds and saying, I want to lock in an SLA on latency and compute services. It won't be super fast compared to say, on AWS, with the next Graviton 10 or whatever comes out. >> Yeah. >> So, I think, you're going to start to see that come in. >> Actually, I'm glad you brought Graviton up too, because the work they're doing in Silicon, actually I think, is... 'Cause I think, the one thing AWS now understands is some things are best optimized in Silicon, some at software layers, some in cloud. And they're doing work on all those layers. And Graviton to me is- >> John: Is a home run. >> Yeah. >> Well- >> Dave, they've got more instances, it's going to be... They already have Gravitons that's slower than the other versions. So, what they going to do, sunset them? >> They don't deprecate anything ever. So, (John laughing) Amazon paid $350 million. People believe that it's a number for Annapurna, which is like one of the best acquisitions in history. (group laughing) And it's given them, it's put them on an arm curve for Silicon that is blowing away Intel. Intel's finally going to get Sapphire Rapids out in January. Meanwhile, Amazon just keeps spinning out new Gravitons and Trainiums. >> Yeah. >> And so, they are on a price performance curve. And like you say, no developer ever wants to run on slower hardware, ever. >> Today, if there's a common need for multicloud, they might say, hey, I got the trade off latency and performance on common services if that's what gets me there. >> Sure. >> If there's maybe a business case to do that. >> Well, that's what they're- >> Which by the way, I want to.... Selipsky had strong quote I thought was, "If you're looking to tighten your belt, the cloud is the place >> Yeah. >> to do it." I thought >> I tweeted that. >> that was very strong. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And I think, he's right. And then, the other point I want to make on that is, I think, I don't have any data on this, but I believe believe just based on some of the discussions I've had that most of Amazon's revenue is on demand. Paid by the drink. Those on demand customers are at risk, 'cause they can go somewhere else. So, they're trying to get you into optimized pricing, whether it's reserved instances or one year or three-year subscriptions. And so, they're working really hard at doing that. >> My prediction on that is that's a great point you brought up. My prediction is that the cost belt tightening is going to come in the marketplace, is going to be a major factor as companies want to get their belts tighten. How they going to do that, Dave? They're going to go in the marketplace saying, hey, I already overpaid a three-year commitment. Can I get some cohesively in there? Can I get some of this or that and the other thing? >> Yep. >> You're going to start to see the vendors and the ecosystem. If they're not in the marketplace, that's where I think, the customers will go. There are other choices to either cut their supplier base or renegotiate. I think, it's going to happen in the marketplace. Let's watch. I think, we're going to watch that grow. >> I actually think the optimization services that AWS has to help customers lower spend is a secret sauce for them that they... Customers tell me all the time, AWS comes in, they'll bring their costs down and they wind up spending more with them. >> Dave: Yeah. >> And the other cloud providers don't do that. And that has been almost a silver bullet for them to get customers to stay with them. >> Okay. And this is always the way. You drop the price of storage, you drop the price of memory, you drop the price of compute, people buy more. And in the question, long term is okay. And does AWS get commoditized? Is that where they're going? Or do they continue to thrive up the stack? John, you're always asking people about the bumper sticker. >> Hold on. (John drowns out Dave) Before we get the bumper sticker, I want to get into what we missed, what they missed on the keynote. >> Yeah, there are some blind spots. >> I think- >> That's good call. >> Let's go around the horn and think what did they miss? I'll start, I think, they missed the developer productivity angle. Supply chain software was not talked about at all. We see that at all the other conferences. I thought that could have been weaved in. >> Dave: You mean security in the supply chain? >> Just overall developer productivity has been one of the most constant themes I've seen at events. Who are building the apps? Who are the builders? What are they actually doing? Maybe Werner will bring that up on his last day, but I didn't hear Adam talk about it all, developer productivity. What's your take in this? >> Yeah, I think, on the security side, they announced security data lake. I think, the other cloud providers do a better job of providing insights on how they do security. With AWS, it's almost a black hole. And I know there's a careful line they walk between what they do, what their partners do. But I do think they could be a little clearer on how they operate, much like Azure and GCP. They announce a lot of stuff on how their operations works and things like that. >> I think, platform across cloud is definitely a blind spot for these guys. >> Yeah. >> I think, look at- >> But none of the cloud providers have embraced that, right? >> It's true. >> Yeah. >> Maybe Google a little bit >> Yeah. >> and Microsoft a little bit. Certainly, AWS hasn't at this point in time, but I think, they perceive the likes of Mongo and Snowflake and Databricks, and others as ISVs and they're not. They're platform players that are building across clouds. They're leveraging, they're building superclouds. So, I think that's an opportunity for the ecosystem. And very curious to see how Amazon plays there down the stream. So, John, what do you think is the bumper sticker? We're only in day one and a half here. What do you think so far the bumper sticker is for re:Invent 2022? >> Well, to me, the day one is about infrastructure performance with the whole what's in the data center? What's at the chip level? Today was about data, specialized services, and security. I think that was the key theme here. And then, that's going to sequence into how they're going to reorganize their ecosystem. They have a new leader, Ruba Borno, who's going to be leading the charge. They've integrated all their bespoke fragmented partner network pieces into one leadership. That's going to be really important to hear that. And then, finally, Werner for developers and event-based services, micro services. What that world's going on, because that's where the developers are. And ultimately, they build the app. So, you got infrastructure, data, specialized services, and security. Machine learning with Swami is going to be huge. And again, how do developers code it all up is going to be key. And is it the bag of Legos or the glued toy? (Dave chuckles) So, what do you want? Out-of-the-box or you want to build your own? >> And that's the bottom line is connecting those dots. All they got to be is good enough. I think, Zeus, to your point, >> Yep. >> if they're just good enough, less complicated, the will keep people on the base. >> Yeah. I think, the bumper stickers, the more you buy, the more you're saving. (John laughing) Because from an operational perspective, they are trying to bring down the complexity level. And with their optimization services and the way their credit model works, I do think they're trending down that path. >> And my bumper sticker's ecosystem, ecosystem, ecosystem. This company has 100,000 partners and that is a business model secret weapon. >> All right, there it is. The keynote announced. More analysis coming up. We're going to have the leader of (indistinct) coming up next, here on to break down their perspective, you got theCUBE's analyst perspective here. Thanks for watching. Day two, more live coverage for the next two more days, so stay with us. I'm John Furrier with Dave Vellante and Zeus Kerravala here on theCUBE. Be right back. (bright music)

(upbeat music) >> Announcer: TheCUBE presents KubeCon and CloudNativeCon Europe, 2022. Brought to you by Red Hat, the Cloud Native Computing Foundation and its ecosystem partners. >> Welcome to Valencia, Spain, a KubeCon, CloudNativeCon Europe, 2022. I'm your host, Keith Townsend alongside Paul Gillon, Senior Editor, Enterprise Architecture for SiliconANGLE. We are, I think at the half point way point this to be fair we've talked to a lot of folks in open source in general. What's the difference between open source communities and these closed source communities that we attend so so much? >> Well open source is just it's that it's open it's anybody can contribute. There are a set of rules that manage how your contributions are reflected in the code base. What has to be shared, what you can keep to yourself but the it's an entirely different vibe. You know, you go to a conventional conference where there's a lot of proprietary being sold and it's all about cash. It's all about money changing hands. It's all about doing the deal. And open source conferences I think are more, they're more transparent and yeah money changes hands, but it seems like the objective of the interaction is not to consummate a deal to the degree that it is at a more conventional computer conference. >> And I think that can create an uneven side effect. And we're going to talk about that a little bit with, honestly a friend of mine Alex Ellis, founder of OpenFaaS. Alex welcome back to the program. >> Thank you, good to see Keith. >> So how long you've been doing OpenFaaS? >> Well, I first had this idea that serverless and function should be run on your own hardware back in 2016. >> Wow and I remember seeing you at DockerCon EU, was that in 2017? >> Yeah, I think that's when we first met and Simon Foskett took us out to dinner and we got chatting. And I just remember you went back to your hotel room after the presentation. You just had your iPhone out and your headphones you were talking about how you tried to OpenWhisk and really struggled with it and OpenFaaS sort of got you where you needed to be to sort of get some value out of the solution. >> And I think that's the magic of these open source communities in open source conferences that you can try stuff, you can struggle with it, come to a conference either get some advice or go in another direction and try something like a OpenFaaS. But we're going to talk about the business perspective. >> Yeah. >> Give us some, like give us some hero numbers from the project. What types of organizations are using OpenFaaS and what are like the download and stars all those, the ways you guys measure project success. >> So there's a few ways that you hear this talked about at KubeCon specifically. And one of the metrics that you hear the most often is GitHub stars. Now a GitHub star means that somebody with their laptop like yourself has heard of a project or seen it on their phone and clicked a button that's it. There's not really an indication of adoption but of interest. And that might be fleeting and a blog post you might publish you might bump that up by 2000. And so OpenFaaS quite quickly got a lot of stars which encouraged me to go on and do more with it. And it's now just crossed 30,000 across the whole organization of about 40 different open source repositories. >> Wow that is a number. >> Now you are in ecosystem where Knative is also taken off. And can you distinguish your approach to serverless or FaaS to Knatives? >> Yes so, Knative isn't an approach to FaaS. That's simply put and if you listen to Aikas Ville from the Knative project, he was working inside Google and wished that Kubernetes would do a little bit more than what it did. And so he started an initiative with some others to start bringing more abstractions like Auto Scaling, revision management so he can have two versions of code and and shift traffic around. And that's really what they're trying to do is add onto Kubernetes and make it do some of the things that a platform might do. Now OpenFaaS started from a different angle and frankly, two years earlier. >> There was no Kubernetes when you started it. >> It kind of led in the space and and built out that ecosystem. So the idea was, I was working with Lambda and AWS Alexa skills. I wanted to run them on my own hardware and I couldn't. And so OpenFaaS from the beginning started from that developer experience of here's my code, run it for me. Knative is a set of extensions that may be a building block but you're still pretty much working with Kubernetes. We get calls come through. And actually recently I can't tell you who they are but there's a very large telecommunications provider in the US that was using OpenFaaS, like yourself heard of Knative and in the hype they switched. And then they switched back again recently to OpenFaaS and they've come to us for quite a large commercial deal. >> So did they find Knative to be more restrictive? >> No, it's the opposite. It's a lot less opinionated. It's more like building blocks and you are dealing with a lot more detail. It's a much bigger system to manage, but don't get me wrong. I mean the guys are very friendly. They have their sort of use cases that they pursue. Google's now donated the project to CNCF. And so they're running it that way. Now it doesn't mean that there aren't FaaS on top of it. Red Hat have a serverless product VMware have one. But OpenFaaS because it owns the whole stack can get you something that's always been very lean, simple to use to the point that Keith in his hotel room installed it and was product with it in an evening without having to be a Kubernetes expert. >> And that is and if you remember back that was very anti-Kubernetes. >> Yes. >> It was not a platform I thought that was. And for some of the very same reasons, I didn't think it was very user friendly. You know, I tried open with I'm thinking what enterprise is going to try this thing, especially without the handholding and the support needed to do that. And you know, something pretty interesting that happened as I shared this with you on Twitter, I was having a briefing by a big microprocessor company, one of the big two. And they were showing me some of the work they were doing in Cloud-native and the way that they stretch test the system to show me Auto Scaling. Is that they bought up a OpenFaaS what is it? The well text that just does a bunch of, >> The cows maybe. >> Yeah the cows. That does just a bunch of texts. And it just all, and I'm like one I was amazed at is super simple app. And the second one was the reason why they discovered it was because of that simplicity is just a thing that's in your store that you can just download and test. And it was open fast. And it was this big company that you had no idea that was using >> No >> OpenFaaS. >> No. >> How prevalent is that? That you're always running into like these surprises of who's using the solution. >> There are a lot of top tier companies, billion dollar companies that use software that I've worked on. And it's quite common. The main issue you have with open source is you don't have like the commercial software you talked about, the relationships. They don't tell you they're using it until it breaks. And then they may come in incognito with a personal email address asking for things. What they don't want to do often is lend their brands or support you. And so it is a big challenge. However, early on, when I met you, BT, live person the University of Washington, and a bunch of other companies had told us they were using it. We were having discussions with them took them to Kubecon and did talks with them. You can go and look at them in the video player. However, when I left my job in 2019 to work on this full time I went to them and I said, you know, use it in production it's useful for you. We've done a talk, we really understand the business value of how it saves you time. I haven't got a way to fund it and it won't exist unless you help they were like sucks to be you. >> Wow that's brutal. So, okay let me get this right. I remember the story 2019, you leave your job. You say I'm going to do OpenFaaS and support this project 100% of your time. If there's no one contributing to the project from a financial perspective how do you make money? I've always pitched open source because you're the first person that I've met that ran an open source project. And I always pitched them people like you who work on it on their side time. But they're not the Knatives of the world, the SDOs, they have full time developers. Sponsored by Google and Microsoft, etc. If you're not sponsored how do you make money off of open source? >> If this is the million dollar question, really? How do you make money from something that is completely free? Where all of the value has already been captured by a company and they have no incentive to support you build a relationship or send you money in any way. >> And no one has really figured it out. Arguably Red Hat is the only one that's pulled it off. >> Well, people do refer to Red Hat and they say the Red Hat model but I think that was a one off. And we quite, we can kind of agree about that in a business. However, I eventually accepted the fact that companies don't pay for something they can get for free. It took me a very long time to get around that because you know, with open source enthusiast built a huge community around this project, almost 400 people have contributed code to it over the years. And we have had full-time people working on it on and off. And there's some people who really support it in their working hours or at home on the weekends. But no, I had to really think, right, what am I going to offer? And to begin with it would support existing customers weren't interested. They're not really customers because they're consuming it as a project. So I needed to create a product because we understand we buy products. Initially I just couldn't find the right customers. And so many times I thought about giving up, leaving it behind, my family would've supported me with that as well. And they would've known exactly why even you would've done. And so what I started to do was offer my insights as a community leader, as a maintainer to companies like we've got here. So Casting one of my customers, CSIG one of my customers, Rancher R, DigitalOcean, a lot of the vendors you see here. And I was able to get a significant amount of money by lending my expertise and writing content that gave me enough buffer to give the doctors time to realize that maybe they do need support and go a bit further into production. And over the last 12 months, we've been signing six figure deals with existing users and new users alike in enterprise. >> For support >> For support, for licensing of new features that are close source and for consulting. >> So you have proprietary extensions. Also that are sort of enterprise class. Right and then also the consulting business, the support business which is a proven business model that has worked >> Is a proven business model. What it's not a proven business model is if you work hard enough, you deserve to be rewarded. >> Mmh. >> You have to go with the system. Winter comes after autumn. Summer comes after spring and you, it's no point saying why is it like that? That's the way it is. And if you go with it, you can benefit from it. And that's what the realization I had as much as I didn't want to do it. >> So you know this community, well you know there's other project founders out here thinking about making the leap. If you're giving advice to a project founder and they're thinking about making this leap, you know quitting their job and becoming the next Alex. And I think this is the perception that the misperception out there. >> Yes. >> You're, you're well known. There's a difference between being well known and well compensated. >> Yeah. >> What advice would you give those founders >> To be. >> Before they make the leap to say you know what I'm going to do my project full time. I'm going to lean on the generosity of the community. So there are some generous people in the community. You've done some really interesting things for individual like contributions etc but that's not enough. >> So look, I mean really you have to go back to the MBA mindset. What problem are you trying to solve? Who is your target customer? What do they care about? What do they eat and drink? When do they go to sleep? You really need to know who this is for. And then customize a journey for them so that they can come to you. And you need some way initially of funneling those people in qualifying them because not everybody that comes to a student or somebody doing a PhD is not your customer. >> Right, right. >> You need to understand sales. You need to understand a lot about business but you can work it out on your way. You know, I'm testament to that. And once you have people you then need something to sell them that might meet their needs and be prepared to tell them that what you've got isn't right for them. 'cause sometimes that's the one thing that will build integrity. >> That's very hard for community leaders. It's very hard for community leaders to say, no >> Absolutely so how do you help them over that hump? I think of what you've done. >> So you have to set some boundaries because as an open source developer and maintainer you want to help everybody that's there regardless. And I think for me it was taking some of the open source features that companies used not releasing them anymore in the open source edition, putting them into the paid developing new features based on what feedback we'd had, offering support as well but also understanding what is support. What do you need to offer? You may think you need a one hour SLA for a fix probably turns out that you could sell a three day response time or one day response time. And some people would want that and see value in it. But you're not going to know until you talk to your customers. >> I want to ask you, because this has been a particular interest of mine. It seems like managed services have been kind of the lifeline for pure open source companies. Enabling these companies to maintain their open source roots, but still have a revenue stream of delivering as a service. Is that a business model option you've looked at? >> There's three business models perhaps that are prevalent. One is OpenCore, which is roughly what I'm following. >> Right. >> Then there is SaaS, which is what you understand and then there's support on pure open source. So that's more like what Rancher does. Now if you think of a company like Buoyant that produces Linkerd they do a bit of both. So they don't have any close source pieces yet but they can host it for you or you can host it and they'll support you. And so I think if there's a way that you can put your product into a SaaS that makes it easier for them to run then you know go for it. However, we've OpenFaaS, remember what is the core problem we are solving, portability So why lock into my cloud? >> Take that option off the table, go ahead. >> It's been a long journey and I've been a fan since your start. I've seen the bumps and bruises and the scars get made. If you're open source leader and you're thinking about becoming as famous as Alex, hey you can do that, you can put in all the work become famous but if you want to make a living, solve a problem, understand what people are willing to pay for that problem and go out and sell it. Valuable lessons here on theCUBE. From Valencia, Spain I'm Keith Townsend along with Paul Gillon and you're watching theCUBE the leader in high-tech coverage. (Upbeat music)

>> Announcer: "theCUBE" presents KubeCon and CloudNativeCon Europe 2022 brought to you by Red Hat, the Cloud Native Computing Foundation and its ecosystem partners. >> Welcome to Valencia, Spain and KubeCon and CloudNativeCon Europe 2022. I'm Keith Townsend, my co-host, Paul Gillin, Senior Editor Enterprise Architecture for SiliconANGLE. We're going to talk, or continue to talk to amazing people. The coverage has been amazing, but also the city of Valencia is beautiful. I have to eat a little crow, I landed and I saw the convention center, Paul, have you got out and explored the city at all? >> Absolutely, my first reaction to Valencia when we were out in this industrial section was, "This looks like Cincinnati." >> Yes. >> But then I got on the bus second day here, 10 minutes to downtown, another world, it's almost a middle ages flavor down there with these little winding streets and just absolutely gorgeous city. >> Beautiful city. I compared it to Charlotte, no disrespect to Charlotte, but this is an amazing city. Naina Singh, Principal Product Manager at Red Hat, and Roland Huss, also Principal Product Manager at Red Hat. We're going to talk a little serverless. I'm going to get this right off the bat. People get kind of feisty when we call things like Knative serverless. What's the difference between something like a Lambda and Knative? >> Okay, so I'll start. Lambda is, like a function as a server, right? Which is one of the definitions of serverless. Serverless is a deployment platform now. When we introduced serverless to containers through Knative, that's when the serverless got revolutionized, it democratized serverless. Lambda was proprietary-based, you write small snippets of code, run for a short duration of time on demand, and done. And then Knative which brought serverless to containers, where all those benefits of easy, practical, event-driven, running on demand, going up and down, all those came to containers. So that's where Knative comes into picture. >> Yeah, I would also say that Knative is based on containers from the very beginning, and so, it really allows you to run arbitrary workloads in your container, whereas with Lambda you have only a limited set of language that you can use and you have a runtime contract there which is much easier with Knative to run your applications, for example, if it's coming in a language that is not supported by Lambda. And of course the most important benefit of Knative is it's run on top of Kubernetes, which allows you- >> Yes. >> To run your serverless platform on any other Kubernetes installation, so I think this is one of the biggest thing. >> I think we saw about three years ago there was a burst of interest around serverless computing and really some very compelling cost arguments for using it, and then it seemed to die down, we haven't heard a lot about serverless, and maybe I'm just not listening to the right people, but what is it going to take for serverless to kind of break out and achieve its potential? >> Yeah, I would say that really the big advantage of course of Knative in that case is that you can scale down to zero. I think this is one of the big things that will really bring more people onto board because you really save a lot of money with that if your applications are not running when they're not used. Yeah, I think also that, because you don't have this vendor log in part thing, when people realize that you can run really on every Kubernete platform, then I think that the journey of serverless will continue. >> And I will add that the event-driven applications, there hasn't been enough buzz around them yet. There is, but serverless is going to bring a new lease on life on them, right? The other thing is the ease of use for developers. With Knative, we are introducing a new programming model, the functions, where you don't even have to create containers, it would do create containers for you. >> So you create the servers, but not the containers? >> Right now, you create the containers and then you deploy them in a serverless fashion using Knative. But the container creation was on the developers, and functions is going to be the third component of Knative that we are developing upstream, and Red Hat donated that project, is going to be where code to cloud capability. So you bring your code and everything else will be taken care of, so. >> So, I'd call a function or, it's funny, we're kind of circular with this. What used to be, I'd write a function and put it into a container, this server will provide that function not just call that function as if I'm developing kind of a low code no code, not no code, but a low code effort. So if there's a repetitive thing that the community wants to do, you'll provide that as a predefined function or as a server. >> Yeah, exactly. So functions really helps the developer to bring their code into the container, so it's really kind of a new (indistinct) on top of Knative- >> on top op. >> And of course, it's also a more opinionated approach. It's really more closer coming to Lambda now because it also comes with a programming model, which means that you have certain signature that you have to implement and other stuff. But you can also create your own templates, because at the end what matters is that you have a container at the end that you can run on Knative. >> What kind of applications is serverless really the ideal platform? >> Yeah, of course the ideal application is a HTTP-based web application that has no state and that has a very non-uniform traffic shape, which means that, for example, if you have a business where you only have spikes at certain times, like maybe for Super Bowl or Christmas, when selling some merchandise like that, then you can scale up from zero very quickly at a arbitrary high depending on the load. And this is, I think, the big benefit over, for example, Kubernetes Horizontal Pod Autoscaling where it's more like indirect measures of value scaling based on CPR memory, but here, it directly relates one to one to the traffic that is coming in to concurrent request. Yeah, so this helps a lot for non-uniform traffic shapes that I think this has become one of the ideal use case. >> Yeah. But I think that is one of the most used or defined one, but I do believe that you can write almost all applications. There are some, of course, that would not be the right load, but as long as you are handling state through external mechanism. Let's say, for example you're using database to save the state, or you're using physical volume amount to save the state, it increases the density of your cluster because when they're running, the containers would pop up, when your application is not running, the container would go down, and the resources can be used to run any other application that you want to us, right? >> So, when I'm thinking about Lambda, I kind of get the event-driven nature of Lambda. I have a S3 bucket, and if a S3 event is driven, then my functions as the server will start, and that's kind of the listening servers. How does that work with Knative or a Kubernetes-based thing? 'Cause I don't have an event-driven thing that I can think of that kicks off, like, how can I do that in Kubernetes? >> So I'll start. So it is exactly the same thing. In Knative world, it's the container that's going to come up and your servers in the container, that will do the processing of that same event that you are talking. So let's say the notification came from S3 server when the object got dropped, that would trigger an application. And in world of Kubernetes, Knative, it's the container that's going to come up with the servers in it, do the processing, either find another servers or whatever it needs to do. >> So Knative is listening for the event, and when the event happens, then Knative executes the container. >> Exactly. >> Basically. >> So the concept of Knative source which is kind of adapted to the external world, for example, for the S3 bucket. And as soon as there is an event coming in, Knative will wake up that server, will transmit this event as a cloud event, which is another standard from the CNCF, and then when the server is done, then the server spins down again to zero so that the server is only running when there are events, which is very cost effective and which people really actually like to have this kind of way of dynamic scaling up from zero to one and even higher like that. >> Lambda has been sort of synonymous with serverless in the early going here, is Knative a competitor to Lambda, is it complimentary? Would you use the two together? >> Yeah, I would say that Lambda is a offering from AWS, so it's a cloud server there. Knative itself is a platform, so you can run it in the cloud, and there are other cloud offerings like from IBM, but you can also run it on-premise for example, that's the alternative. So you can also have hybrid set scenarios where you really can put one part into the cloud, the other part on-prem, and I think there's a big difference in that you have a much more flexibility and you can avoid this kind of Windows login compared to AWS Lambda. >> Because Knative provides specifications and performance tests, so you can move from one server to another. If you are on IBM offering that's using Knative, and if you go to a Google offering- >> A google offering. >> That's on Knative, or a Red Hat offering on Knative, it should be seamless because they're both conforming to the same specifications of Knative. Whereas if you are in Lambda, there are custom deployments, so you are only going to be able to run those workloads only on AWS. >> So KnativeCon, co-located event as part of KubeCon, I'm curious as to the level of effort in the user interaction for deploying Knative. 'Cause when I think about Lambda or cloud-run or one of the other functions as a servers, there is no backend that I have to worry about. And I think this is where some of the debate becomes over serverless versus some other definition. What's the level of lifting that needs to be done to deploy Knative in my Kubernetes environment? >> So if you like... >> Is this something that comes as based part of the OpenShift install or do I have to like, you know, I have to... >> Go ahead, you answer first. >> Okay, so actually for OpenShift, it's a code layer product. So you have this catalog of operator that you can choose from, and OpenShift Serverless is one part of that. So it's really kind of a one click install where you have also get a default configuration, you can flexibly configure it as you like. Yeah, we think that's a good user experience and of course you can go to these cloud offerings like Google Cloud one or IBM Code Engine, they just have everything set up for you. And the idea of other different alternatives, you have (indistinct) charts, you can install Knative in different ways, you also have options for the backend systems. For example, we mentioned that when an event comes in, then there's a broker in the middle of something which dispatches all the events to the servers, and there you can have a different backend system like Kafka or AMQ. So you can have very production grade messaging system which really is responsible for delivering your events to your servers. >> Now, Knative has recently, I'm sorry, did I interrupt you? >> No, I was just going to say that Knative, when we talk about, we generally just talk about the serverless deployment model, right? And the Eventing gets eclipsed in. That Eventing which provides this infrastructure for producing and consuming event is inherent part of Knative, right? So you install Knative, you install Eventing, and then you are ready to connect all your disparate systems through Events. With CloudEvents, that's the specification we use for consistent and portable events. >> So Knative recently admitted to the, or accepted by the Cloud Native Computing Foundation, incubating there. Congratulations, it's a big step. >> Thank you. >> Thanks. >> How does that change the outlook for Knative adoption? >> So we get a lot of support now from the CNCF which is really great, so we could be part of this conference, for example which was not so easy before that. And we see really a lot of interest and we also heard before the move that many contributors were not, started into looking into Knative because of this kind of non being part of a mutual foundation, so they were kind of afraid that the project would go away anytime like that. And we see the adoption really increases, but slowly at the moment. So we are still ramping up there and we really hope for more contributors. Yeah, that's where we are. >> CNCF is almost synonymous with open source and trust. So, being in CNCF and then having this first KnativeCon event as part of KubeCon, we are hoping, and it's a recent addition to CNCF as well, right? So we are hoping that this events and these interviews, this will catapult more interest into serverless. So I'm really, really hopeful and I only see positive from here on out for Knative. >> Well, I can sense the excitement. KnativeCon sold out, congratulations on that. >> Thank you. >> I can talk about serverless all day, it's a topic that I really love, it's a fascinating way to build applications and manage applications, but we have a lot more coverage to do today on "theCUBE" from Spain. From Valencia, Spain, I'm Keith Townsend along with Paul Gillin, and you're watching "theCUBE," the leader in high-tech coverage. (gentle upbeat music)

(upbeat music) >> Kubernetes is maturing for example moving from quarterly releases to three per year, it's adding many of the capabilities that early on were avoided by Kubernetes committers, but now are going more mainstream, for example, more robust security and better support from mobile cluster management and other functions. But core Kubernetes by itself, doesn't get organizations where they need to go. That's why the ecosystem has stepped up to fill the gaps in application development. Developers as we know, they don't care about infrastructure, but they do care about building new apps, they care about modernizing existing apps, leveraging data, scaling, they care about automation look, they want to be cloud native. And one of the companies leading the ecosystem charge and building out more robust capabilities is Red Hat. And ahead of KubeCon Spain. It's our pleasure to welcome in Stu Miniman director of market insights at Red Hat to preview the event, Stu, good to see you, how you been? >> I'm doing awesome, Dave. Thanks for having me, great to be here. >> Yeah. So what's going on in Kube land these days? >> So it's funny Dave, if you were to kind of just listen out there in the marketplace, the CNCF has a survey that's like 96% of companies running Kubernetes production, everybody's doing it. And others will say, oh no, Kubernetes, only a small group group of people are using it, it's already probably got newer technologies that's replacing it. And the customers that I'm talking to Dave, first of all, yes, containers of Kubernetes, great growth growth rate, good adoption overall, I think we've said more than a year or two ago, we've probably crossed that chasm, the Jeff Moore, it's longer the early people just building all their own thing, taking all the open source, building this crazy stack that they need to had to do a lot of work we used to say. Chewing glass to be able to make it work right or anything, but it's still not as easy as you would like, almost no company that I talk to, if you're talking about big enterprises has Kubernetes just enterprise wide, and a hundred percent of their applications running on it. What is the tough challenge for people? And I mean, Dave, something, you and I have covered for many, many years, , that application portfolio that I have, most enterprises, hundreds, thousands of applications modernizing that having that truly be cloud native, that that's a really long journey and we are still in the midst of that, so I still still think we are in that, that if you look at the cross in the chasm that early majority chunk, so some of it is how do we mature things even better? And how do we make things simpler? Talk about things like automation, simplicity, security, we need to make sure they're all there so that it can be diffused and rolled out more broadly. And then we also need to think about where are we? We talk about the next million cloud customers, where does Kubernetes and containers and all the cloud native pieces fit into that broader discussion. Yes, there's some maturity there and we can declare victory on certain things, but there's still a lot, a lot of work that everyone's doing and that leads us into the show. I mean, dozens of projects that are already graduated, many more along that process from sandbox through a whole bunch of co-located events that are there, and it's always a great community event which Red Hat of course built on open source and community projects, so we're happy to have a good presence there as always. >> So you and I have talked about this in the past how essentially container's going to be embedded into a lot of different places, and sometimes it's hard to find, it's hard to track, but if you look at kind of the pre DevOps world skillsets like provisioning LANs, or configuring ports, or troubleshooting, squeezing more, server utilism, I mean, those who are really in high demand. If that's your skillset, then you're probably out of a job today. And so that's shifted toward things like Kubernetes. So you see and you see in the ETR data, it's along with cloud, and RPA, or automation, it is right up there I mean, it's top, the big four if you will, cloud, automation, RPA, and containers. And so we know there's a lot of spending activity going on there, but sometimes, like I said, it's hard to track I mean, if you got cloud growing at 35% a year, at least for the hyperscalers that we track, Kubernetes should be growing faster than that, should it not? >> Yeah, Dave, I would agree with you when I look at the big analyst firms that track this, I believe they've only got the container space at about a 25 per percent growth rate. >> Slower than cloud. But I compare that with Deepak Singh who runs at AWS, he has the open source office, he has all the containers and Kubernetes, and has visibility in all of that. And he says, basically, containers of the default when somebody's deploying to AWS today. Yes, serverless has its place, but it has not replaced or is not pushing down, slowing down the growth of containers or Kubernetes. We've got a strong partnership, I have lots of customers running on AWS. I guess I look at the numbers and like you, I would say that I would expect that that growth rate to be north of where just cloud in general is because the general adoption of containers and Kubernetes, we're still in the early phases of things. >> And I think a lot of the spendings Stu is actually in labor resources within companies and that's hard to track. Let's talk about what we should expect at the show. Obviously this whole notion of secure supply chain was a big deal last year in LA, what's hot? >> Yeah, so security Dave, absolutely. You said for years, it's a board level discussion, it's now something that really everyone in the organization has to know about the dev sec ops movement, has seen a lot of growth, secure supply chain, we're just trying to make sure that when I use open source, there's lots of projects, there is the huge ecosystem in marketplaces that are out there. So I want to make sure that as I grab all of the pieces that I know where they got came from the proper signature certification to make sure that the full solution that I build, I understand it. And if there are vulnerabilities, I know if there's an issue, how I patch it in the industry, we talk about CBEs, so those vulnerabilities, those exploits that come out, then everybody has to do a quick runaround to understand wait, hey, is my configuration? Am I vulnerable? Do I have to patch things? So security, absolutely still a huge, huge thing. Quick from a Red Hat standpoint, people might notice we made an acquisition a year ago of StackRox. That product itself also now has a completely fully open source project itself, also called StackRox. So the product is Red Hat advanced cluster security for Kubernetes, there's an open source equivalent for that called StackRox now, open source, community, there's a monthly office hour live streaming that a guy on my team actually does, and so there'll be a lot of activity at the show talking about security. So many other things happening at the show Dave. Another key area, you talked about the developers and what they want to worry about and what they don't. In the container space, there's a project called Knative. So Google helped create that, and that's to help me really have a serverless operational model, with still the containers and Kubernetes underneath that. So at the show, there will be the firs Knative con. And if you hadn't looked at Knative in a couple of years, one of the missing pieces that is now there is eventing. So if I look at functions and events, now that event capability is there, it's something I've talked to a lot of customers that were waiting for that to have it. It's not quite the same as like a Lambda, but is similar functionality that I can have with my containers in Kubernetes world. So that's an area that's there and so many others, I mean, GitOps are super hot at the last show. It's something that we've seen, really broad adoption since Argo CD went generally available last year, and lots of customers that are taking that to help them. That's both automation put together because I can allow GitHub to be my single source of truth for where I keep code, make sure I don't have any deviation from where the kind of the golden image if you will, it lives. >> So we're talking earlier about, how hard it is to track this stuff. So with the steep trajectory of growth and new customers coming on, there's got to be a lot of experimentation going on. That probably is being done, somebody downloads the open source code and starts playing with it. And then when they go to production that I would imagine Stu that's the point at which they say, hey, we need to fill some of these gaps. And they reach out to a company like yours and say, now we got to have certifications and trust., Do you. see that? >> So here's the big shift that happened, if we were looking four or five years ago, absolutely, I'd grab the open source code and some people might do that, but what cloud really enabled Dave, is rather than just grabbing, going to the dot the GitHub repo and pulling it down itself, I can go to the cloud so Microsoft, AWS, and Google all have their Kubernetes offering and I click a button. But that just gives me Kubernetes so there's still a steep learning curve. And as you said to build out out that full stack, that is one of the big things that we do with OpenShift is we take dozens of projects, pull them in together so you get a full platform. So you spend less time on curating, integrating, and managing that platform. And more time on the real value for your business, which is the application stack itself, the security and the like. And when we deliver OpenShift in the cloud, we have an SRE team that manages that for you. So one of the big challenges we have out there, there is a skillset gap, there are thousands of people getting certified on Kubernetes. There are, I think I saw over a hundred thousand job openings with Kubernetes mentioned in it, we just can't train people up fast enough, and the question I would have as an enterprise company is, if I'm going to the cloud, how much time do I want to build having SREs, having them focus on the infrastructure versus the things that are business specific. What did Amazon promise Dave? We're going to help you get rid of undifferentiated heavy lifting. Well, I just consume things as a service where I have an SRE team manage that environment. That might make more sense so that I can spend more time focusing on my business activities. That's a big focus that we've had on Red Hat, is our offerings that we have with the cloud providers to do and need offering. >> Yeah, the managed service capability is key. We saw, go back to the Hadoop days, we saw that's where Cloudera really struggled. They had to support every open source project. And then the customers largely had to figure it out themselves. Whereas you look at what data bricks did with spark. It was a managed service that was getting much greater adoption. So these complex areas, that's what you need. So people win sometimes when I use the term super cloud, and we getting little debates on Twitter, which is a lot of fun, but the idea is that you create the abstraction layer that spans your on-prem, your cloud, so you've got a hybrid. You want to go across clouds, what people call multi-cloud but as you know, I've sort of been skeptical of multi-cloud is really multi-vendor. But so we're talking about a substantial experience that's identical across those clouds and then ultimately out to the edge and we see a super Paas layer emerging, And people building on top of that, hiding the underlying complexity. What are your thoughts on that? How does Kubernetes in your view fit in? >> Yeah, it's funny, Dave, if you look at this container space at the beginning, Docker came out of a company called dotCloud. That was a PaaS company. And there's been so many times that that core functionality of how do I make my developers not have to worry about that underlying gank, but Dave, while the storage people might not have to worry about the LANs, somebody needs to understand how storage works, how networking works, if something breaks, how do I make sure I can take care of it. Sometimes that's a service that the SRE team manages that away from me. so that yes, there is something I don't need to think of about, but these are technically tough configurations. So first to one of your main questions, what do we see in customers with their hybrid and multi-cloud journey? So OpenShift over 10 years old, we started OpenShift before Kubernetes even was a thing. Lots of our customers run in what most people would consider hybrid, what does that mean? I have something in my data center, I have something in the cloud, OpenShift health, thanks to Kubernetes, I can have consistency for the developers, the operators, the security team, across those environments. Over the last few years, we've been doing a lot in the Kubernetes space as a whole, as the community, to get Kubernetes out to the edge. So one of the nice things, where do containers live Dave? Anywhere Linux does, is Linux going to be out of the edge? Absolutely, it can be a small footprint, we can do a lot with it. There were a lot of vendors that came out with it wasn't quite Kubernetes, they would strip certain things out or make a configuration that was smaller out at the edge, but a lot of times it was something that was just for a developer or something I could play with, and what it would break sometimes was that consistency out at the edge to what my other environments would like to have. And if I'm a company that needs consistency there. So take for example, if I have an AI workload where I need edge, and I need something in the cloud, or in my data center of consistency. So the easy use case that everybody thinks about is autonomous vehicles. We work with a lot of the big car manufacturers, I need to have when my developer build something, and often my training will be done either in the data center or in the public cloud, but I need to be able to push that out to the vehicle itself and let it run. We've actually even got Dave, we've got Kubernetes running up on the ISS. And you want to make sure that we have a consistency. >> The ultimate edge. >> Yeah, so I said, right, it's edge above and beyond the clouds even, we've gone to beyond. So that is something that the industry as a whole has been working at, from a Red Hat standpoint, we can take OpenShift to a really small footprint. Last year we launched was known as single node OpenShift. We have a project called micro shift, which is also fully open source that it has less pieces of the overall environment to be able to fit onto smaller and smaller devices there. But we want to be able to manage all of them consistently because you talked about multi cluster management. Well, what if I have thousands or 10 of thousands of devices out of the edge? I don't necessarily have network, I don't have people, I need to be able to do things from an automated standpoint. And that's where containers and Kubernetes really can shine. And where a lot of effort has been done in general and something specifically, we're working on it, Red Hat, we've had some great customers in the telecommunication space. Talk about like the 5G rollout with this, and industrial companies that need to be able to push out at the edge for these type of solutions. >> So you just kind of answered my next question, but I want to double click on it which was, if I'm in the cloud, why do I need you? And you touched on it because you've got primitives, and APIs, and AWS, Google, and Microsoft, they're different, if you're going to hide the underlying complexity of that, it takes a lot of RND and work, now extend that to a Tesla. You got to make it run there, different use case, but that's kind of what Linux and OpenShift are design to do, so double click on that. >> Yeah, so right. If I look at the discussion you've been having about super clouds is interesting because there are many companies that we work with that do live across multiple environments. So number one, if I'm a developer, if my company came to me and said, hey, you've got all your certifications and you got years of experience running on Amazon, well, we need you to go run over on Google. That developer might switch companies rather than switch clouds because they've got all of their knowledge and skillset, and it's a steep learning curve. So there's a lot of companies that work on, how can we give you tools and solutions that can live across those environments? So I know you mentioned companies like Snowflake, MongoDB, companies like Red Hat, HashiCorp, GitLab, also span all of those environments. There's a lot of work, Dave, to be different than not just, I say, I don't love the term like we're cloud agnostic, which would mean, well, you can use any cloud. >> You can run on any cloud. >> That's not what we're talking about. Look at the legacy that Red Hat has is, Red Hat has decades of running in every customer's data center and pick your X 86 server of choice. And we would have deep relationships when Dell, HP, IBM, Lenovo, you name it, comes out with a new piece of hardware that was different. We would have to make sure that the Linux primitives work from a Red Hat standpoint. Interesting Dave, we're now supporting OpenShift on Azure Stack Hub. And I talked to our head of product management, and I said, we've been running OpenShift in Azure for years, isn't Azure Stack Hub? Isn't that just Azure in your data center. He's like, yeah, but down at the operating system level, we had to change some flags and change some settings and things like that, so what do we know in IT? It's always the yeah, at the high level, it looks the same, it acts the same, it feels the same. >> Seamless. >> It's seamless in everything when you get down to the primitives level, sometimes that we need to be able to do that. I'll tell you Dave, there's things even when I look at A cloud, if I'm in US East One, or US West One, there actually could be some differences in what services are there or how things react, and so therefore we have a lot of deep work that goes into all of those environments, and it's not just Red Hat, we have a marketplace and an ecosystem, we want to make sure you've got API compatibility across all of those. So we are trying to help lift up this entire ecosystem and bring everybody along with it because you set it at the upfront, Kubernetes alone won't do it, oo one vendor gives you an entire, everything that you need for your developer tool chain. There's a lot that goes into this, and that's where we have deep commitment to partnerships. We build out and support lots of ecosystems. And this show itself is very much a community driven show. And, and therefore, that's why Red Hat has a strong presence at it, 'cause that's the open source community and everything that we built on. >> You guys are knee deep in it. You know I wrote down when you were talking about Snowflake and Mongo, HashiCorps, another one, I wrote down Dell, HP, Cisco, Lenovo, that to me, that should be their strategy. NetApp, their strategy should be to basically build out that abstraction layer, the so-called super cloud. So be interesting to see if they're going to be at this show. It requires a lot of R and D number one, number two, to your point, it requires an ecosystem. So you got all these guys, most of them now do in their own as a service, as a service is their own cloud. Their own cloud means you better have an ecosystem that's robust. I want to ask you about, do you ever think about what's next beyond Kubernetes? Or do you feel like, hey, there's just so much headroom in Kubernetes and so many active projects, we got ways to go. >> Yeah, so the Kubernetes itself Dave, should be able to fade into the background some. In many ways it does mirror what happened with Linux. So Linux is just the foundation of everything we have. We would not have the public cloud providers if it wasn't for Linux. I mean, Google, of course you wouldn't have without Linux, Amazon. >> Is on the internet. >> Right, but you might not have a lot of it. So Kubernetes, I think really goes the same way is, it is the foundational layer of what so much of it is built on top of it, and it's not really. So many people think about that portability. Oh, Google's the one that created it, and they wanted to make sure that it was easy if I want to go from the cloud provider that I had to use Kubernetes on Google cloud. And while that is a piece of it, that consistency is more important. And what I can build on top of it, it is really more of a distributed systems challenge that we are solving and that we've been working on in industry now for decades. So that is what we help solve, and what's really nice, containers and Kubernetes, it's less of an abstraction, it's more of new atomic unit of how we build things. So virtualization, I don't know what's underneath, and we spent like a decade fixing the storage networking components underneath so that the LANs matched right, and the network understood what was happening in the virtual machine. The atomic unit of a container, which is what Kubernetes manages is an application or a piece of an application. And therefore that there is less of an abstraction, more of just a rearchitecting of how we build things, and that is part of what is needed, and boy, Dave, the ecosystem, oh my God, yes, we've gone to only three releases a year, but I can tell you our roadmaps are all public on the internet and we talk heavily about them. There is still so many things that just at the basic Kubernetes piece, new architectures, arm devices are now in there, we're now supporting them, Kubernetes can support them too. So there are so many hardware pieces that are coming, so many software devices, the edge, we talked about it a bit, so there's so much that's going on. One of the areas that I love hearing about at the show, we have a community event called OpenShift Comments, which one of the main things of OpenShift Comments, is customers coming to talk about what they've been doing, and not about our products, we're talking about the projects and their journey overall. We've got a at Flenty Show, Airbus and Telefonica, are both going to be talking about what they're doing. We've seen Dave, every industry is going through their digital transformation journey. And it's great to hear straight from them what they're doing, and one of the big pieces in area, we actually spend a bunch of time on that application journey. There's a group of open source projects under what's known as Konveyor, that's conveyor with a K, Konveyor.io. It's modernization in migration. So how do I go from a VM to a container? How do I go from my data center to a cloud? How do I switch between services, open source projects to help with that journey? And, oh my gosh, Dave, I mean, you know in the cloud space, I mean that's what all the SIs and all the consultancies are throwing thousands of people at, is to help us get along that curve of that modernization journey. >> Okay, so let's see May 16th, the week of May 16th is KubeCon in Valencia Spain. theCUBE's going to be there, there was a little bit of a curfuffle on Twitter because the mask mandate was lifted in Spain and people had made plans thinking, okay, it's safe everybody's going to be wearing masks. Well, now I mean, you're going to have to make your own decisions on that front. I mean, you saw that you follow Twitter quite closely, but hey, this is the world we live in. So I'll give you the last word. >> Yeah, we'll see if Twitter still exists by the time we get to that show with. >> Could be private. What happens, but yeah, no, Dave, I'll be participating remotely, it is a hybrid event, so one of the things we'll be watching is, how many people are there in person LA was a pretty small show, core contributors, brought it back to some of the early days that you covered heavily from theCUBE standpoint, how Valencia will be? I know from Red Hat standpoint, we have people there, many of them from Europe, both speaking, we talked about many of the co-located events that are there, so a lot of pieces all participate remotely. So if you stop by the OpenShift commons event, I'll be part of the event just from a hybrid standpoint. And yeah, we've actually got the week before, we've got Red Hat Summit. So it's nice to actually to have back to back weeks. We'd had that a whole bunch of times before I remember, back to back weeks in Boston one year where we had both of those events and everything. That's definitely. >> Connective tissue. >> Keeps us busy there. You've got a whole bunch of travel going on. I'm not doing too much travel just yet, Dave, but it's good to see you and it's great to be connected with community. >> Yeah, so theCUBE will be there. John Furrier is hosting with Keith Townsend. So if you're in Valencia, definitely stop by. Stu thanks so much for coming into theCUBE Studios I appreciate it. >> Thanks, Dave. >> All right, and thank you for watching. We'll see you the week of May 16th in Valencia, Spain. (upbeat music)

(upbeat music) >> We're back at AWS re:Invent 2021. It's the biggest hybrid event of the year. One of the few physical events and we're psyched to be here. My name is Dave Vellante, and I'm really pleased to bring back the host emeritus, Stu Miniman, somebody I worked with side-by-side, Stu, for 10 years in a setting much like this, many like this. So, good to have you back. >> Dave, it's great to be here with theCUBE team, family here and re:Invent, Dave. I mean, this show, I remember back, Dave, going to you after the first re:Invent we talked, we were like, "We got to be there." Dave, remember the first year we came, the second year of re:Invent, this is the 10th year now, little card tables, gaming companies, all this stuff. You had Jerry Chen on yesterday and Jerry was comparing like, this is going to be like the next Microsoft. And we bet heavy on this ecosystem. And yeah, we all think this cloud thing, it might be real. 20,000 people here, it's not the 50 or 75,000 that we had in like 2018, 2019, but this ecosystem, what's happening in the cloud, multiple versions of hybrid going on with the event and the services, but yeah, phenomenal stuff. And yeah, it's so nice to see people. >> That's for sure. It's something that we've talked about a lot over the years is, and you remember the early days of re:Invent and to this day, just very a strong developer affinity that AWS has done a tremendous job of building that up and it's their raison d'etre, it's how they approach the market. But now you've been at Red Hat for a bit, obviously as well, developer affinity, what have you learned? Specifically as it relates to the cloud, Kubernetes, hottest thing going, you don't want to do an OpenShift commercial, but it's there, you're in the middle of that mix. What have you learned generally? >> Well, Dave, to the comment that you made about developers here, it's developers and the enterprise. We used to have a joke and say, enterprise developer is an oxymoron, but that line between developers doing stuff, early as a cloud, it was stealth computing. It's they're often doing this stuff and central IT is not managing it. So how do the pieces come together? How do apps and infrastructure, how do those pieces come together? And it's something that Red Hat has been doing a long time. Think about the Linux developer. They might've not have been the app developers, the people building Linux and everything, but they had a decent close tie to it. I'm on the OpenShift team. What we do is cloud, Dave, and we've got a partnership here with Amazon. We GAed our native cloud service earlier this year. Andy Jassy helped name it. It is the beautifully named Red Hat OpenShift Service on AWS or ROSA. But we've done OpenShift on AWS for more than five years, basically since we were doing Kubernetes, it's been here because of course customers doing cloud, where are they? A lot of them are here in Amazon. So I've been loving talking to a lot of customers, understanding how enterprise adoption is increasing, how we can enable developers and help them move faster. And yeah, I mean the quick plug on OpenShift is our service. We've got an SRE team that is going to manage all of that. A friend of the program, Corey Quinn, says, "Hey, an SRE team like that, because you don't want to manage as an enterprise." You don't want to manage Kubernetes. Yeah, you need to understand some of the pieces, but what is important to your business is the applications, your data and all those things and managing the undifferentiated heavy lifting. That's one of the reasons you went to the cloud. So therefore changing your model as to how you consume services in the cloud. And what are we seeing with Amazon, Dave? They're trying to build more solutions, simplify deployments, and offer more solutions including with their ecosystem. >> So I want to ask you. You said enterprise developer is kind of an oxymoron, and I remember, years ago I used to hang around with a lot of heads of application development and insurance companies and financial services, pharmaceutical, and they didn't wear hoodies, but they didn't wear suits either. And then when I talked to guys like Jeff Clark, for instance. He talks about we're building an abstraction layer across clouds, blah, blah, blah, which by the way, I think it is the right strategy. I'm like, "Okay, I'll drink some of that Kool-Aid." And then when I come here, we talked to Adam Selipsky. John flew out and I was on the chime. He goes, "Yeah, that's not hybrid. No, this is nothing like, it's not AWS, AWS is cloud." So, square that circle for me, 'cause you're in both worlds and certainly your strategy is to connect those words. Is that cloud? >> Yeah, right. I mean, Dave, we spent years talking about like is private cloud really a cloud? And when we started coming to the show, there is only one cloud. It is the public cloud and Amazon is the paragon of, I don't know what it was. >> Dave: Fake clouds, cloud washing. >> So today, Amazon's putting lots of things into your data center and extending the cloud out to that environment. >> So that's cloud. >> That's cloud. >> What do we call that cloud? What about the reverse? >> What's happening at the edge is that cloud is that extension of what we said from Amazon. If you look at not only Outpost, but Wavelengths and Local Zones and everything else like that. >> Let's say, yes, that's cloud. The APIs, primitives, check. >> Dave, I've always thought cloud is an operating model, not a location. And the hybrid definition is not the old, I did an ebook on this, Dave earlier this year. It's not the decade old NIS definition of an application that spans because I don't get up in the morning as an enterprise and say, "Oh, let me look at the table of how much Google is charging me or Microsoft or Amazon," or wake up one morning and move from one cloud to the other. Portability, follow the sun type stuff, does it ever happen? Yes, but it is rare thing. Applications oftentimes get pulled apart. So we've seen if you talk about AI, training the cloud, then transact and do things at the edge. If I'm in an autonomous vehicle or in a geosynchronous satellite, I can't be going back to the cloud to process stuff. So I get what I need and I process there. The same thing hybrid, oftentimes I will do my transactional activity in the public cloud because I've got unlimited compute capability, but I might have my repository of data for many different reasons, governance or security, all these things in my own data center. So parts of an application might live there, but I don't just span to go between the public cloud in my data center or the edge, it's specific architectural decisions as to how we do this. And by the way the developer, they don't want to have to think about location. I mean, my background, servers, storage, virtualization, all that stuff, that was very much an infrastructure up look of things. Developers want to worry about their code and make sure that it works in production. >> Okay, let me test that. If it's in the AWS cloud and I think it's true for the other hyperscale clouds too, they don't have to think about location, but they still have to think about location on-prem, don't they? >> Well, Dave, even in a public cloud, you do need to worry about sometimes it's like, "Okay, do I split it between availability zones? How do I build that? How do I do that?" So there are things that we build on top of it. So we've seen Amazon. >> I think that's fair, data sovereignty, you have to think about okay. >> Absolutely, a lot of those things. >> Okay, but the experience in Germany is going to be the same as it is in DC, is it not? >> More or less? There are some differences we'll see off and Amazon will roll things out over time and what's available, you've got cloud. >> For sure, though that's definitely true. That's a maturity thing, right? You've talked a bit, but ultimately they all sort of catch up. I guess my question would be is the delta between, let's say, Fed adoption and East Coast, is that delta narrower, significantly narrow than what you might see on-prem? >> The services are the same, sometimes for financial or political things, there might be some slight differences, but yes, the cloud experience should be the same everywhere from Amazon. >> Is it from a standpoint of hybrid, on-prem to cloud, across cloud? >> Many of the things when they go outside of the Amazon data centers are limited or a little bit different or you might have latency considerations that you have to consider. >> Now it's a tug of war. >> So it's not totally seamless because, David Foyer would tell us there, "You're not going to fight physics." There are certain things that we need to have and we've changed the way we architect things because it's no longer the bottleneck of the local scuzzy connection that you have there, it is now (indistinct). >> But the point I'm making is that gets into a tug of war of "Our way is better than your way." And the answer is depends in terms of your workload and the use case. >> You've looked at some of these new databases that span globes and do things of the like. >> Another question, I don't know if you saw the Goldman Sachs deal this morning, Goldman Sachs is basically turning its business into a SaaS and pointing it to their hedge funds and allowing people to access their data, their tools, their software that they built for their own purposes. And now they're outselling it. Similar to what NASDAQ has done. I can't imagine doing that without containers. >> Yeah, so interesting point, I think. At least six years ago now, Amazon launched serverless and serverless was going to take over the world. I dug into the space for a couple of years. And you had the serverless with camp and you had the container camp. Last year at re:Invent, I really felt a shift from Amazon's positioning that many of the abstraction layers and the tools that help you support those environments will now span between Lambda and containers. The container world has been adding serverless functionality. So Amazon does Fargate. The open-source community uses something called Knative, and just breaking this week. Knative was a project that Google started and it looks like that is going to move over to the CNCF. So be part of the whole Kubernetes ecosystem and everything like that. Oracle, VMware, IBM, Red Hat, all heavily involved in Knative, and we're all excited to see that go into the CNCF. So the reason I say that, I've seen from Amazon, I actually, John and I, when we interviewed Andy Jassy back in 2017, I asked him a follow-up question because he said if he was to build AWS in 2017, "I would start with everything underneath it serverless." I would wonder if following up with Adam or Andy today, I'd said, "Would it be all serverless or would containers be a piece of it?" Because sometimes underneath it doesn't matter or sometimes it can be containers and serverless. It's a single unit in Amazon and when they position things, it's now that spectrum of unit, everything from the serverless through the containers, through... James Hamilton wrote a blog post today about running Xen-on-Nitro and they have a migration service for a mainframe. So what do we know? That one of the only things about IT is almost nothing ever goes away. I mean, it sounded like Amazon declared coming soon the end of life of mainframe. My friends over at IBM might not be quite ready to call that era over but we shall see. All these things take time. Everything in IT is additive. I'm happy to see. It is very much usually an end world when I look at the container and Kubernetes space. That is something that you can have a broad spectrum of applications. So some of my more monolithic applications can move over, my cool new data, AI things, I can build on it, microservices in between. And so, it's a broad platform that spans the cloud, the edge, the data center. So that cloud operating model is easier to have consistency all the places that I go. >> Mainframe is in the cloud. Well, we'll see. Big banks by the next site unseen. So I think Amazon will be able to eat away at the edges of that, but I don't think there's going to be a major migration. They claim it. Their big thing is that you can't get COBOL programmers. So I'm like, "Yeah, call DXC, you'll get plenty." Let's talk about something more interesting. (Stu laughs softly) So the last 10 years was a lot of, a lot about IT transformation and there was a lot more room to grow there. I mean, the four big hyperscalers are going to do 120 billion this year. They're growing at 35%. Maybe it's not a trillion, but there's a $500 billion market that they're going after, maybe more. It looks like there's a real move. You saw that with NASDAQ, the Goldman deal, to really drive into business, deeper business integration in addition to IT transformation. So how do you see the next decade of cloud? What should we be watching? >> So, one of the interesting trends, I mean, Dave, for years we covered big data and big data felt very horizontal in it's approach thing. Hadoop take over the world. When I look at AI solutions, when I look at the edge computing technologies that happen, they're very vertically driven. So, our early customers in edge adoption tend to be like telco with the 5G rollout manufacturing in some of their environments. AI, every single industry has a whole set of use cases that they're using that go very deep. So I think cloud computing goes from, we talked about infrastructure as a service to it needs to be more, it is solution, some of these pieces go together. When Adam got up on stage and talked about how many instance types they have on Amazon, Dave, it's got to be 2X or 4X more different instant types than if I went to go to HPE or Dell and buy a physical server for my environment. So we need to have areas and guidance and blueprints and heck, use some of that ML and AI to help drive people to the right solutions because we definitely have the paradox of choice today. So I think you will find some gravity moving towards some of these environments. Gravatar has been really interesting to watch. Obviously that Annapurna acquisition should be down as one of the biggest ones in the cloud era. >> No lack of optionality to your point. So I guess to the point of deeper business integration, that's the big question, will Amazon provide more solution abstractions? They certainly do with Connect. We didn't hear a ton of that this show. >> Interestingly. (Dave speaking indistinctly) So the article that you and John Furrier wrote after meeting with Adam, the thing that caught my eye is discussion of community and ecosystems. And one of the things coming after, some, big communities out there like, you and I lived through the VMware ecosystem in that very tight community. There are forming little areas of community here in this group, but it's not a single cloud community. There are those focus areas that they have. And I do love to see, I mean, obviously working for Red Hat, talking about the ecosystem support. I was very happy to hear Adam mention Red Hat in the keynote as one of the key hybrid partners there. So, for Amazon to get from the 60 million, the 60 billion to the trillion dollar mark down the road, it's going to take a village and we're happy to be a part of it. >> Hey, great to have you back, enjoy the rest of the show. This is, let's see, day three, we're wrapping up. We're here again tomorrow so check it out. Special thanks to obviously AWS is our anchor sponsor and of course, AMD for sponsoring the editorial segments of our event. You're watching theCUBE, the leader in tech coverage. See you tomorrow. (bright upbeat music)

>> Narrator: From around the globe, it's theCUBE with digital coverage of AnsibleFest 2020, brought to you by Red Hat. >> The ascendancy of massive clouds underscored the limits of human labor. People, they simply don't scale at the pace of today's technology. And this trend created an automation mandate for IT which has been further accentuated by the pandemic. The world is witnessing the build-out of a massively distributed system that comprises on-prem apps, public clouds and edge computing. The challenge we face is how to go from managing things you can see and touch to cost effectively managing, securing and scaling these vast systems. It requires an automation first mindset. Hello, everyone. This is Dave Vellante and welcome back to AnsibleFest 2020. We have a great panel to wrap up this show. With me are our three excellent guests and CUBE alums. Ashesh Badani is the Senior Vice President of Cloud Platforms at Red Hat. Ashesh, good to see you again. Thanks for coming on. >> Yeah, likewise. Thanks for having me on again, Dave. >> Stefanie Chiras is Vice President and General Manager of the RHEL Business Unit and my sports buddy. Stefanie, glad to see you back in the New England area. I knew you'd be back. >> Yeah, good to see you, Dave. Thanks for having us today. >> You're very welcome. And then finally, Joe Fitzgerald, longtime CUBE alum, Vice President and General Manager of the Management Business Unit at Red Hat. Joe, good to see you. >> Hey, Dave, good to be here with you. >> Ashesh, I'm going to start with you. Lay out the big picture for us. So how do you see this evolution to what we sometimes talk about as hybrid cloud, but really truly a hybrid cloud environment across these three platforms that I just talked about? >> Yeah, let me start off by echoing something that most of your viewers have probably heard in the past. There's always this notion about developers, developers, developers. And you know, that still holds true. We aren't going away from that anymore. Developers are the new kingmakers. But increasingly, as the scope and complexity of applications and services that are deployed in this heterogeneous environment increases, it's more and more about automation, automation, automation. In the times we live in today, even, you know, before dealing with the crises that, you know, we have, just the sheer magnitude of requirements that are being placed on enterprises and expectations from customers require us to be more and more focused on automating tasks which humans just can't keep up with. So you know, as we look forward, this conversation here today, you know, what Ansible's doing, you know, is squarely aimed at dealing with this complexity that we all face. >> So Stefanie, I wonder if you could talk about what it's going to take to implement what I call this true hybrid cloud, this connection and management of this environment. RHEL is obviously a key piece of that. That's going to be your business unit, but take us through your thoughts there. >> Yeah, so I'm kind of building on what Ashesh said. When we look at this hybrid cloud world, right, which now hybrid is much more than it was considered five years ago. It used to be hybrid was on-prem versus off-prem. Now, hybrid translates to many layers in the stack. It can be VMs hybrid with containers. It can be on-prem with off-prem and clearly with edge involved, as well. Whenever you start to require the ability to bridge across these, that's where we focus on having a platform that allows you to access sort of all of those and be able to deploy your applications in a simple way. When I look at what customers require, it's all about speed of deploying applications, right, build, deploy and run your applications. It's about stability, which is clearly where we're focused on RHEL being able to provide that stability across multiple types of hybrid deployment models. And third is all about scale. It is absolutely all about scale and that's across multiple ranges in hybrid, be it on-prem, off-prem, edge and that's where all of this automation comes in, so to me, it's really about where do you make those strategic decisions that allow you to choose, right, for the flexibility that you need and still be able to deploy applications with speed, have that stability, resiliency, and be able to scale. >> So Joe, let's talk about your swim lane and it's weird to even use that term, right? 'Cause as Stefanie just said, we're kind of breaking down all these silos that we talk in terms of platform, but how do you see this evolving, and specifically, what's the contribution from a management perspective? >> Right, so Stefanie and Ashesh talked about sort of speed, scale and complexity. Right, people are trying to deploy things faster or larger scale, and oh, by the way, keep everything highly available and secure. That's a challenge, right? And so, you know, interestingly enough, Red Hat, about five years ago, we recognized that automation was going to be a problem as people were moving into open hybrid clouds, which we've been working with our customers for years on. And so we acquired this small company called Ansible, which had some really early emerging technology, all open source, right, to do automation. And what we've done over the past five years is we've really amplified that automation and amplified the innovation in that community to be able to provide automation across a wide array of domains that you need to automate, right, and to be able to plug that in to all the different processes that people need in order to be able to go faster, but to track, manage, secure and govern these kind of environments. So we made this bet years ago and it's paying off for Red Hat in very big ways. >> I mean, no doubt about it. I mean, when you guys bought Ansible, so it wasn't clear that it was going to be the clear leader. It is now. I mean, it's pulled ahead of Chef, Puppet. You saw, you know, VMware bought Salt, but I mean, Ansible very clearly has, based on our surveys, the greatest market momentum. We're going to talk about that. I know some of the other analysts have chimed in on this, but let me come back to this notion of on-prem and cloud and edge and this is complicated. I mean, the edge, it's kind of its own island, isn't it? I mean, you got the IT and the OT schism, so maybe you could talk a little bit about how you see those worlds coming together, the cloud, the on-prem, the edge. Maybe Stefanie, you can start. >> Yeah, I think the magic, Dave, is going to happen when it's not its own island, right, as we start to see this world driven by data cause the spread of a data center to be really dis-aggregated and allow that compute to move out closer to the data, the magic happens when it doesn't feel like an island, right, that's the beauty and the promise of hybrid. So when you start to look at what can you provide that is consistent that serves as a single language that you can talk to from on-prem, off-prem and edge, you know, it all comes down to, for us, having a platform that you can build once and deploy across all of those, but the real delicacy with edge is there are some different deployment models. I think that comes into deployment space and we're clearly getting feedback from customers. We're working on some capabilities where edge requires some different deployment models in the ways you update, et cetera, and thanks to all of you out there who are working with us upstream in order to deliver that. And I think the second place where it's unique is in this ability to manage and automate out at the edge, but our goal is certainly at our platform levels, whether it be on RHEL, whether it be on OpenShift to provide that consistent platform that allows you that ease of deployment, then you got to manage and automate it and that's where the whole Ansible and the ecosystem really plays in. You need that ecosystem and that's always what I love about AnsibleFest is this community comes together and it's a vibrant community, for sure. >> Well, I mean, Ashesh, you guys are betting big on this and I often think of the cloud is just this one big cloud. You got the on-prem cloud, you got the public clouds. Edge becomes just an extension of that cloud. Is that how you think about it and what is it actually going to take to make that edge not an island? >> Yeah, great point, Dave, and that's exactly how we think about it. We've always thought about our vision of the cloud as being a platform and abstraction that spans all the underlying infrastructure that the user can take advantage of, so if it happens to reside in a data center, some in a private cloud running off a data center, more increasingly in the public cloud setting, and as Stefanie called out, we're also starting to see edge deployments come in. We're seeing, you know, big build-outs in the work we're doing with telecom providers from a 5G perspective that's helping drive that. We're seeing, if you will, IOT-like opportunities with, let's say, the automotive sector or some in the retail sector, as well. And so this fabric, if you will, needs to span this entire set of deployment that a customer will take advantage of. And Joe started touching on this a little bit, right, with this notion of the speed, scale and complexity, so we see this platform needing to expand to all these footprints that customers are using. At the same time, the requirements that they have, even when they're going out the edge, is the same with regard to what they see in the data center and the public cloud, so putting all that together really is our sweet spot. That's our focus. And to the point you're making, Dave, that's where we're making a huge bet across all of Red Hat. >> So I mentioned, you know, some of our research and I do these breaking analysis segments every week and recently I was digging into cloud and specifically was interested in hybrid and multi. And you know, hybrid been I think pretty well understood for awhile. Multi I think was a lot of, you know, a lot of talk, but it's becoming real and the data really shows that. It shows OpenShift and Ansible have momentum. I mentioned that before. Yeah, you know, obviously VMware is there, but clearly Red Hat is well positioned specifically in multicloud and hybrid. And I know some of the other analyst firms have picked up on this. What are you guys seeing in the market? Maybe Joe, you can chime in and Ashesh, you can maybe add some color. >> Yeah, so you know, there's a lot of fashion, right, around hybrid and multicloud today, so every vendor is jumping on with multicloud storing. And you know, a lot of the vendors' strategies are, pick my solution and vertically use my stuff in the public cloud on-premise, maybe even at the edge, right, and you'll be fine. And you know, obviously customers don't like lock-in. They like to be able to take advantage of the best services, availability, security, different things that are available in each of these different clouds, right? So there is a strong preference for hybrid and multicloud. Red Hat is sort of the Switzerland of hybrid and multicloud because we enable you to run your workloads across all these different substrates, whether it's in public clouds, multiple, right, into the data center and physical, virtual, bare metal, out to the edge and edge is not a single homogeneous, you know, set of hardware or even implementation. It varies a lot by vertical, so you have a lot of diversity, right? And so Red Hat is really good at helping provide the platforms like OpenShift and RHEL that are going to provide that consistency across those different environments or also in the case of Ansible to provide automation that's going to match the physics of management and automation that are required across each of those different environments. Trust me, managing or automating something at the edge and with very small footprint of some device across the constraint network is very, very different than managing things in a public cloud or in a data center and that's where I think Red Hat is really focused and that's our sweet spot, helping people manage those environments. >> And Ashesh, you guys have obviously put a lot of effort there. If you could maybe comment. >> Yeah, I was just going to say, Dave, I'll add just really quickly to what Joe said. He said it well. But the thing I will add is the way for us to succeed here is to follow the user, follow the customer. Right, instead of us just coming out with regard to what we believe the path to be, you know, we're really kind of working closely with the actual customers that we have. So for example, recently been working with a large water utility in Italy, but they're thinking about, you know, the world that they live in and how can they go off and, you know, have kiosks that are spread throughout Italy, able to provide reports with regard to the quality of the water that's available, as well as other services to all their citizens. But it's really interesting use case for us to go off and pursue because in some sense, you can ask yourself, well, is that public cloud? Are they going to take advantage of those services? Is that, you know, private cloud? Is that data center, is that IOT, is that edge? At a certain point in time, what you've got to think about is, well, we've got to provide integrated end-to-end solution that spans all of these different worlds, and so as long as I think we keep that focus, as long as we make sure our North Star is really what the user's trying to do, what problem they're trying to solve, I think we'll come out just fine on the other side of this. >> So I'd love to get all your thoughts, all three of you, on just what's going on in containers, generally, Kubernetes, specifically. I mean, everybody knows it's a hot space and the data shows that it is maturing, but it's amazing to me how much momentum it still has. I mean, it's like the new shiny toy, but it's everywhere and so it's able to sort of maintain that velocity and it's really becoming the go-to cloud native development platform, so the question is how is Red Hat, you know, helping your customers connect OpenShift to the rest of their IT infrastructure, platforms, their processes, the tools. I mean, who wants to start? I'd love to hear from all three of you. Ashesh, why don't you kick it off and then we'll just go left to right. >> So Dave, we've spoken to you and to folks the CUBE, as well, other for many years on this. We've made a huge investment in the Kubernetes market and been one of the earliest to do that and we continue to believe in the promise that it delivers to users, this notion of being able to have an environment that customers can use regardless of the underlying choices that they make. Here's an extremely powerful one, it's truly an open source, right? This is key to, you know, what we do. Increasingly, what we're working on is to ensure that one, if you make a commitment to Kubernetes and increasingly we see lots of customers around the world doing that, that we ensure that we're working closely, that our entire portfolio helps support that. So if you're going to make a choice with regard to Kubernetes base deployment, we help support you running it yourself wherever it is that you choose to run it, we help support you whether you choose to have us manage on your behalf and then also make sure we're providing an entire portfolio of services, both within Red Hat as well as from third parties so that you have the most productive, integrated experience possible. >> Okay, and Stefanie, loved your point of view on this, and Joe, I'd love to understand how you're bridging kind of the Ansible and Kubernetes communities, but Stefanie, why don't you chime in first? >> Yeah, I'll quickly add to what Ashesh said and talked about well on really the promise and the value of containers, but particularly from a RHEL perspective, we have taken all our capabilities and knowledge in the Linux space and we have taken that to apply it to OpenShift, right, because Kubernetes and containers is just another way to deploy Linux, so making sure that that underpinning is stable, secure and resilient and tied to an ecosystem, right? An ecosystem of various architectures, an ecosystem of ISVs and tooling, right? We've pulled that together and everything we've done in Linux for, you know, over decades now at Red Hat and we've put that into that customer experience around OpenShift to deploy containers, so we've really built, it has been a portfolio-wide effort, as Ashesh alluded to, and of course, it passes over to Ansible as well with Joe's portfolio. >> Yeah, we talked about this upfront, Joe. The communities are so crucial, so how are you bridging those Ansible and Kubernetes communities? What's your thought on that? >> Well, a quick note about those communities. So you know, OpenShift is built on Kubernetes and a number of other projects. Kubernetes is number seven in the top 10 open source projects based on the number of contributors. Turns out Ansible is number nine, right? So if you think about it, these are two incredibly robust communities, right? On the one hand, building the container platform in Kubernetes and in the other around Ansible and automation. It turns out that as the need for this digital acceleration and building these container-based applications comes along, there's a lot of other things that have to be done when you deploy container-based applications, whether it's infrastructure automation, right, to expand and manage and automate the infrastructure that you're running your container-based applications on, creating more clusters, you know, configuring storage, network, you know, counts, things like that, but also connecting to other systems in the environment that need to be integrated with around, you know, ITSM or systems of record, change management, inventory, cost, things like that, so what we've done is we've integrated Ansible, right, in a very powerful way with OpenShift through our advanced cluster management capability, which allows us to provide an easy way to instrument Ansible during critical points, whether it's you're deploying new clusters out there or you're deploying a new version of an application or a new application for the first time, whether you're checking policy, right, to ensure that, you know, the thing is secure and that, you know, you can govern these environments, right, that you're relying on. So we've really now tied together two sort of de facto standards, OpenShift built on Kubernetes and a number of other projects and then Ansible, or Red Hat, has taken this innovation in the community and created these certified content collections, platforms and capabilities that people can actually build and rely on and know that it's going to work. >> Ashesh, I mean, Red Hat has earned the right, really, to play in both the cloud native world and of course the traditional infrastructure world, but I'm interested in what you're seeing there, how you're bringing those two worlds together. Are they still, you know, largely separate? Are you seeing traditional IT? I mean, you're certainly seeing them lean in to more and more cloud native, but what are you guys doing specifically to kind of bring those worlds together? >> Yeah, increasingly it's really hard to be able to separate out those worlds, right? So in the past, we used to call it shadow IT. There really is no shadow IT anymore, right? This is IT. So we've embraced that completely. You know, our take on that is to say there are certain applications that are going to be appropriate for being run in a data center a certain way. There are certain other workloads that'll find their way appropriate for the public cloud. We want to make sure we're meeting them across, but what we want to do is constantly introduce technologies to help support the choices customers make. What do I mean by that? Let me give a couple examples. One is, you know, we can say customers have VMs that are based out in specific environments and they can only run as VMs. That code can't be containerized for a variety of reasons, right? You know, hard to re-architect that, don't have the funds, you know, have certain security compliance reasons. Well, what if we could take those VMs and then have them be run in containers in a native fashion? Wouldn't that be extremely powerful value proposition to run containers and then VMs as containers sort of side by side with Kubernetes orchestrating them all. So that's a capability we call open source virtualization. We've introduced that and made that generally available within our platform. Another one, which I think Joe starting to touch on a little bit here, is both around this notion of Ansible, as well as advanced cluster management. And say, once technologies like Ansible are familiar to our customers, how about if we find ways to introduce things like the operator framework to help support people's use of Ansible and introduce technologies like advanced cluster management, which allows for us to say, well, regardless of where you run your clusters, whether you run your Kubernetes clusters on premise, you run them in the cloud, right, we can imagine a consistent fashion and manage, you know, health and policy and compliance of applications across that entire state. So David, question's extremely good one, right, but what we are trying to do is try to be able to say, you know, we are going to just span those two worlds and provide as many tools as possible to ensure that customers feel like, you know, the shift, if you will, or the move between traditional enterprise software application development and the more modern cloud native can be bridged as seamlessly as possible. >> Yeah, Joe, we heard a lot of this at AnsibleFest, so the ACM as a key component of your innovation, and frankly, your competitive posture. Anything you would add to what Ashesh just shared? >> Well, I think that one of the things that Red Hat is really good at is we take management and automation as sort of an intrinsic part of what needs to go on. It's not an afterthought. You just don't go build something, go, "Oh I need management," go out and, you know, go get something, right, so we've been working on, sort of automation and management for many, many years, right, so we build it in concert with these platforms, right, and we understand the physics of these different environments, so we're very focused on that from inception, as opposed to an afterthought when people sort of paint themselves into a corner or have management challenges they can't deal with. >> There's a lot of analogs in our business, isn't there? Management is a bolt-on and security is a bolt-on. It just doesn't work that well and certainly doesn't scale. Stefanie, I want to come back to you and I want to come back to the edge. We hear a lot of people talking about extending their deployments to the edge in the future. I mean, you look at what IBM's doing. They're essentially betting its business on RHEL and OpenShift and betting that its customers are going to do the same as well are you. Maybe talk about, you know, what you're doing to specifically extend RHEL to the edge. >> Yeah, Dave, so we've been looking at this space consistent with our strategy, as Ashesh talked about, right? Our goal is to make sure that it all looks and feels the same and provides one single Linux experience. We've been building on a number of those aspects for quite some time, things like being able to deal with heterogeneous architectures, as an example, being able to deal with, you know, having Arm components and x86 components and power components and being able to leverage all of that from multiple vendors and being able to deploy. Those are things we've been focused on for a long time and now when you move into the space of the edge, certainly we're seeing, you know, essentially data center level hardware move out to be dis-aggregated and dispersed as they move it closer to the data and where that's coming in and where the analysis needs to be done, but some of those foundational things that we've been working on for years starts to pay off because the edge tends to be more heterogeneous all the way from an architecture level to an application level, so now we're seeing some asks. We've been working upstream in order to pull in some features that drive capabilities around specifically updating, deploying those updates, doing rollbacks and things like that, so we're focused on that. But really, it's about pulling together the capabilities of having multiple architectures, dealing with heterogeneous infrastructure out there at the edge, being able to reliably deploy it even when, for example, we have customers who they deploy their hardware and they can't touch it for years. How do they make sure that that's out there in a stable environment that they can count on? And then, you know, adding in things like containerization. We talked about the magic of that, being able to deploy an application consistently and being able to deploy a single container out there to the edge. We're thinking about it all the way from the architecture up to how the application gets deployed and it's going to take the whole portfolio to do that as you need to manage it, as you need to deploy containers, so it's a focus across the company for how we deal with that. >> And as we were talking about before, you know, it takes a village. You know that bromide, but it does, requires an ecosystem of jobs. I mean, there's some real technical challenges in R&D that has to happen. I mean, you've got to be, you know, you're talking about cloud native in all three different clouds, and you know, and not just the big three, but other clouds and then bringing that to the edge, so there's some clear technical challenges, but there's also some business challenges out there. So you know, what are you seeing in that regard? You know, what are some of those things that you hope to solve by bridging that gap? >> Well, I think one of the things we're trying to do and I'm focused on the management and automation side is to provide a common set of management tooling of automation, right, and I think Ansible fits that quite well. So for the past five years since Ansible's been part of Red Hat, we've expanded from, you know, they started off initially doing configuration management, right? We've expanded to include, you know, network and storage and security, now edge. At AnsibleFest, we demonstrated things like serverless event-driven automation, right, building an OpenShift serverless in Knative. We're trying to expand the use cases for Ansible so that there's a simplicity, there's a tool reduction, right, across all these environments and you don't have to go deal with nine vendors, and you know, 17 different tools to try to manage each element here to be able to provide a common set. It reduces complexity, cost and allows skills to be able to be reused across these different areas. It's going to all be about digital acceleration, right, and reducing that complexity. And one last comment. One of the reasons we bought Ansible years ago is the architecture, it's agent-less. Many of our competitors that you hear, the first thing they want to do is go deploy an agent somewhere and that creates its own ongoing burden of, do I have the latest version of the agent? Is it secure? Does it fit on the device? As Stefanie mentioned, is there a version that fits on the architecture the device is running on? It starts getting really, really complicated. So Ansible is just simple, elegant, agent-less. We've expanded the domains we can automate with it and we've expanded sort of the modality. How can I call it? User, driven by an event, as part of some life cycle management, app deployment, Ansible plugs right in. >> Well, Joe, you can tell you're a management guy, right? Agents, another thing that has to be managed. You just laundry list of stuff. (laughs) I want to come back to this notion Joe just touched on, this digital transformation. They say, "If it ain't broke, don't fix it." Well, COVID broke everything. And I got to say, I mean, all the talk about digital transformation over the last, you know, several years, yes, it was certainly happening, but there was also a lot of lip service going on and now if you're not digital, you're out of business. And so, you know, given everything that we've seen in the last, you know, whatever, 150, 200 days or so, what's the impact that you're seeing on customers' digital transformation initiatives, and you know, what is Red Hat doing to respond? Maybe Ashesh, you could start and we can get feedback from the others. >> Yeah, David, it's an unfortunate thing to say, right, but there's that meme going around with regard to who's responsible for digital transformation and it's a little bit of I guess gallows humor to call it COVID, but we're increasingly seeing that customers and the journey that they're on is one that they haven't really gotten off, even with this, if you will, change of environment that's come about. So projects that we've seen in play, you know, are still underway. We've seen acceleration, actually, in some places with regard to making services more easily accessible. Anyone who's invested in hybrid cloud or public cloud is seeing huge value with regard to being able to consume services remotely, being able to do this on demand and that's a big part of the value proposition, you know, that comes forward. And increasingly what we're trying to do is try to say, how can we engage and assist you in these times, right? So our services team, for example, has transformed to be able to help customers remotely. Our support team has gone off and work more and more with customers. For a company like Red Hat, that hasn't been completely, if you will, difficult thing to do mostly because we've been so used to working in a distributed fashion, working remotely with our customers, so that's not a challenge in itself, but making sure customers understand that this is really a critical journey for them to go on and how we can kind of help them, you know, walk through that has been good and we're finding that that message really resonates. Right, so both Stefanie and Joe talked a little bit about, you know, how essentially our entire portfolio is now built around, you know, ensuring that if you'd like to consume on demand, we can help support you, if you'd like to consume in a traditional fashion, we can help you. That amount of flexibility that we provide to customers is really coming to bear at this point in time. >> So maybe we could wrap with, we haven't really dropped any customer names. Stefanie and Joe and Ashesh, I wonder if you have any stories you can share or, you know, customer examples that we could close on that are exciting to you this year. >> So I can start, if that's okay. >> Please. >> So an area that I find super interesting from a customer perspective that we're increasingly seeing more and more customers go down is sheer interest in, if you will, kind of diversity of use cases that we're seeing, right? So we see this, for example, in automotive, right? So whether it's a BMW or a Volkswagen, we see this now in health care with the ACA, in we'll say a little bit more traditional industries like energy with Exxon or Schlumberger around increasingly embrace of AIML, right? So artificial machine learning, if you will, advanced analytics being much more proactive with regard to how they can take data that's coming in, adjust it, be able to make sense of the patterns and then be able to, you know, have some action that has real business impact. So this whole trend towards, you know, AIML workloads that they can run is extremely powerful. We work very closely with Nvidia, as well, and we're seeing a lot of interest, for example, in being able to run a Kubernetes-based platform, support Nvidia GPUs for specific class workloads. There's a whole bunch of customers, people in financial services that, you know, this is a rich area of interest. You know, we've seen great use cases for example around grid with Deutsche Bank. And so, to me, I'm personally really excited to see kind of that embrace the PC from our customers regard to saying there's a whole lot of data that's out there. You know, how can we essentially use all of these tools that we have in place? You know, we talk about containers, microservices, DevOps, you know, all of this and then put it to bear to really put to work and get business value. >> Great, thank you for that, Ashesh. Stefanie, Joe, Stefanie, anything you want to add or final thoughts? >> Yeah, just one thing to add and I think Ashesh talked to a whole number across industry verticals and customers. But I think the one thing that I've seen through COVID is that if nothing else, it's taught us that change is the only constant and I think, you know, our whole vision of open hybrid cloud is how to enable customers to be flexible and do what they need to do when they need to do it, wherever they want to deploy, however they want to build. We provide them some consistency, right, across that as they make those changes and I think as I've worked with customers here through since the beginning of COVID, it's been amazing to me the diversity of how they've had to respond. Some have doubled down in the data center, some have doubled down on going public cloud and to me, this is the proof of the strategy that we're on, right, that open hybrid cloud is about delivering flexibility, and boy, nothing's taught us the need for flexibility like COVID has recently, so I think there's a lot more to do. I think pulling together the platforms and the automation is what is going to enable the ability to do that in a simple fashion. >> So Joe, you get the final word. I mean, AnsibleFest 2020, I mean, it's weird, right? But that's the way these events are, all virtual. Hopefully, next year we got a shot at being face to face, but bring us home, please. >> Yeah, I got to tell ya, having, you know, 20,000 or so of your closest friends get together to talk about automation for a couple of days is just amazing. That just shows you sort of the power of it. You know, we have a lot of customers this week at AnsibleFest telling you their story, you know, CarMax and ExxonMobil, you know, BlueCross BlueShield. I mean, there's a number across all different verticals, globally, Cepsa from Europe. I mean, just an incredibly, you know, diverse array of customers and use cases. I would encourage people to look at some of the customer presentations that were on at AnsibleFest, listen to the customer telling you what they're doing with Ansible, deploying their networks, deploying their apps, managing their infrastructure, container apps, traditional apps, connecting it, moving faster. They have amazing stories. I encourage people to go look. >> Well, guys, thanks so much for helping us wrap up AnsibleFest 2020. It was really a great discussion. You guys have always been awesome CUBE guests. Really appreciate the partnership and so thank you. >> Thanks a lot, Dave. Appreciate it. >> Yeah, thanks, Dave. >> Thanks for having us. >> All right, and thank you for watching, everybody. This is Dave Vellante for theCUBE and we'll see you next time. (calm music)

>> Announcer: From theCUBE studios in Palo Alto in Boston, connecting with thought leaders all around the world, this is a CUBE Conversation. >> Hi, I'm Stu Miniman and welcome to a special CUBE conversation. I'm coming from the Boston area studio. We were supposed to have a KubeCon Europe in Amsterdam. First in the spring, they pushed it off to the summer, and, of course, the decision due to the global pandemic is it's making it virtual. But happy to welcome to the program two guests that I was planning to have on in person, but couldn't wait for our virtual coverage of the event, though. Happy to welcome the co-founders of TriggerMesh. Sitting in the middle is Mark Hinkle, who is the CEO of the company, and to the other side is Sebastien Goasguen, who is also the co-founder and the Chief Product Officer. Gentlemen, thanks so much for joining us. >> Thanks for having us, Stu. >> Thanks, Stu. >> All right, so, it's interesting, we've been covering the cloud native space for a number of years, and especially at KubeCon, there's always some of those discussions of does cloud kill on-premises, does this new thing kill that old thing. And in some of the early days of KubeCon, it was like, well, containers are really interesting, and there was all the buzz for years about Docker but, hey, the next thing is going to be serverless. And serverless, we don't need to think about any of that stuff, it's the nirvana of what developers wanted. So therefore, let's not worry about containers, but you sit in that space really helping to connect between some of the various pieces. So, I guess, Sebastien, maybe if I could start with you, 'cause you've built some of these various projects, when you go through and look at your background, you've been involved in the co-business space, uBLAS, and now for TriggerMesh but, you know, give us some of that background as to how, from a technological under pinnings, the community's been thinking about how these worlds fit together. >> Yeah sure, it's very interesting because first, the container rejuvenation started with Docker obviously and then Kubernetes appeared, and the entire community started building this. And this was really an evolution from the virtual machine orchestration, right. People needing a better way to package applications, deploy them, and they said, "You know what, "virtual machines are not that great for this. "Can't we have a better vehicle to do this" and that's where, really, containers took over. And it made total sense and so we saw this switch from, craziness about open stack and even cloud stack that Mark and I worked on, and putting all the focus on containers. And then comes AWS always innovating, always in the lead, and AWS saying, "Hey, you know what? "Actually, we need to go serverless. "We need to forget about the infrastructure. "What people want is really deploy applications "without worrying about the infrastructure. "They want things that are going to auto scale. "They want to pay very little, even pay per function call "and not pay when your VM is up." So AWS really pushed this mindset of serverless, but then what was the meaning in that realm of containers, and that's when I started Kubeless and I said, "You know what, if you would need to build function "as a service, you should build it on Kubernetes, "and use Kubernetes as a platform." And from there we started started seeing this fight, a little bit, between people, saying "Hey, forget containers, go serverless." So in TriggerMesh, we're not really taking that stance. We really see on-premises has, it's always going to be here, we have worked clouds on-premises, we have our own data centers but definitely there is more and more cloud usage, and when you start using the cloud you don't want to care about the infrastructure in the cloud, right. So, you want as much serverless as possible in the cloud, but you know you have to deal with your on-premises, data bases and some work loads and so on. So you have to be a pragmatic and you have to pick the best of both worlds and keep moving to modernize your stack and your IT in general. >> Excellent, alright so Mark, at the CNCF I'd seen the Knative project come out and it was talking about how we can connect containers and serverless, and one of the questions I'd been asking is "Well look, there are a lot "of open source projects for serverless." But when I talk to the community, when I talk to users, you say serverless, I think AWS. Sebastien was just talking about, so, I was sitting at the KubeCon shows and talking to the vendors and a lot of really big vendors were working on Knative, Oracle, IBM, RedHat and others and I said if this doesn't connect with AWS first and Azure second, I don't understand what we're doing. Yes, there's probably a place for on-premises but that was when, I think you and I had a conversation, we'd been looking at this space, so how did the ideas that Sebastien talked about turn into an initiative and a company of TriggerMesh. >> Well, early on we latched onto the Knative announcement that Google made. Google had given Sebastien some insight into where they were going with serverless, and the Knative project before it launched. And then they actually quoted him in the release which started interest in our company which was the only company in name at that point. But we really didn't know where Knative and Kubernetes together were going and the serverless movement, but we thought at first that there would need to be management capabilities to do lifecycle management around serverless functions, but what we realized, or Sebastien realized, early on was that it's not so much the management of serverless, because the whole idea of serverless is to abstract away all of the severs and architecture so that all you're really dealing with is the run time. So the problem that we saw early on was not managing but actually integrating applications across serverless framework, so the name TriggerMesh, that came from the idea that you trigger serverless functions and that you would mesh architectures whether they be legacy applications or they be file services or other serverless clouds across the fabric of the internet. So that's Triggermesh and that's really where we're going and we see that there's a couple of proof points in our industry for that already and people having the desire to do that. >> All right excellent, so that integration that you're talking about. Help Sebastien explain, there's some news I believe its the EveryBridge Cloud Native Integration Platform that's just announced. Help us understand what that is and what should we be kind of comparing it to other solutions in the industry today. >> Yeah so, you know we are very happy about the EveryBridge announcement and it's really, we're getting beta, we are doing a beta release of EveryBridge available in our SaaS cloud, the Triggermesh.io and really to first piggy back on what Mark was saying, is that a lot of people still believe serverless is just functions, right. And for us serverless is much more than this. Serverless is about building event driven applications. We see it with AWS, with things like they are doing with EventBridge, for example, but we really believe in this mindset. What we are trying to do is to help people build applications, build cloud native applications, that fundamentally are event driven and they are linking cloud services in the public cloud providers and also on-premises work load, right. So EveryBridge allows people to do this, to build those cloud native apps as basic event flows that connect event sources wherever they are, could be events that are on-prem from an eCommerce application, ERP application, could be events that are circulating through a Kafka infrastructure on-prem, and people can connect those event sources with what we call targets. So those targets could be on-premises, they would be OpenShift work loads for example or they could be in the cloud at AWS lambda functions, Google cloud run, or even dedicated SaaS like Twilio, SendGrid, and so on, so that's when we saw really over the last 18 to almost two years now, is that serverless is more of an integration problem, more like traditional IPaaS that we've seen, right. So basically we are building a new IPaaS solution at the frontier of serverless offerings from the public clouds, traditional messaging systems like Kafka, Remittent, Q and so on, plus the, I would say, the old IPaaS solution and we're doing all of this backed by Kubernetes and Knative. >> Excellent, so Mark I heard Sebastien talking about, he mentioned OpenShift, talked about Google, speak a little bit to really the ecosystems, the market places that TriggerMesh fits into. What are the use cases that you are seeing customers using. >> Yeah, I think a couple of the, to the dive into the on-prem triggers we have capabilities to trigger oracle database changes that could actually pick off cloud based ETL transactions. We're seeing that users are going through digital transformation and really to be more specific given the global climate right now, it's remote work, and the idea of lifting and shifting all of your infrastructure into the cloud is pretty daunting and long ask, but if you can front end those systems with new cloud native architecture and you have a way to create those event flows to tie in your existing systems to new portals for your employees to get their work done, automate workflows to provision new systems, like Zoom for example, and other conferencing systems, you can use the serverless front ends and work flows that actually integrate with all of your existing infrastructure and give you a way to extend your life of your applications and modernize them. >> Yeah, the long pole on attending modernization is that application. Sebastien maybe I'd come to you on this is, I think about iPaaS, when you look at that space they talk about all the integration that they need to work on, usually there are certifications involved, you mentioned Oracle databases, these are things that we need to go in there with a engineering effort and make sure that it is tested and certified by the ISV out there. Does containerization, Kubernetes, and serverless, does this change it at all, does this make it easier to move along these environments? I guess the question is for the enterprise, normally this change is rather slow. Mark was just alluding to the fact that we need to do some of these things faster, to try to react from what's happening in the world. >> Yeah, I think that's the entire premise of containers. It's speeding up the software life cycle and the speed at which we can deliver new features, for all our applications and so on. So, a big part of the job, when Docker started and then Kubernetes has been, if you adopt that type of infrastructure and that type of artifact, containers, you're going to speed up your software management and software delivery. So now what happens is that you have slow moving pieces, maybe pieces that you've had in your data center for 10, 20 years, for quite a while, and then you have these extremely fast moving environment, which is containerized and running Kubernetes plus the cloud. That's even, we could say even faster moving, and you can, that's definitely the challenge, that's where we see the value and that's where we see the struggle, is that you have all those big companies that have those slow moving pieces Oracle DB, IBM MQ, and so on and they need to make those pieces relevant in a fast moving containerized world and in a cloud native world, right. So how do you bridge that gap? Well that's what we do, we provide bridges. We provide integration bridges with every bridge, there you go. So we connect the event sources from Oracle DB and MQ and we bring that to a more fast moving cloud native environment, whether it's managed Kubernetes on Google GKE or whether its still on-prem in OpenShift. >> Mark, want to get your view point, just being a start up in today's global environment, obviously, you look at the cloud data space, many of the companies are distributed. We're talking to Sebastien from over in Europe, you're down in North Carolina, but give us your view point as a startup. How is the current economic environment impacting you, impacting your partners, impacting your customers. >> So, our partners and customers are probably moving more slowly than we do as a startup because they had physical brick and mortar offices and now they are coming into our world. We're 100% virtual, we're in 3 continents across over 12 time zones. That kind of work versus where they're at, I think everybody is consciously moving ahead, the one thing that I will say is that their interest in being more like the startups that are virtual, don't have brick and mortar, are really good at online collaboration. They look at us for sort of inspiration on how they are going to do business going forward or at least for the foreseeable future. So, overall I think that, not only are we teaching them about cloud native technologies but we're just teaching them about distributed work forces in a quarantined world. >> Absolutely, and I think those are some of the key learnings that you look at that are diversity consistent in the cloud native space. Want to give you both a final word and-- >> And Stu if I just add something. Mark and I have been working from home for quite a while, eight to 10 years, and definitely right now this is not the normal working from home, right, we all have, most of us have kids at home 24/7. The cognitive load in the news is huge, this is not the normal environment. So we are extremely careful, we help each other definitely internally in the team, you know, India, Vietnam, Germany, Spain, U.S. We have to be extremely careful that everybody is not falling down and putting too much on the nerves and their spirits right, so not a normal environment and even though we know how to do it we have to be careful. >> Yeah Sebastien, I'm so glad you brought that up 'cause this is not just a, how do we move to a distributed system. There is the rest of the impact on that. All right so lets give you both final words. Hopefully, we absolutely will be gathering together even if we are remote for the KubeCon event for Europe, other event later on this year, but Sebastien let's start with you, final take aways. >> Yeah, so we are very excited to build a startup. It's fast moving, its an exciting industry and really seeing the beta release of EveryBridge for us. We are trying to bring the future of event driven application to everybody, event sources to targets for everyone, not just on AWS and taking all of the strength of Kubernetes with us. It's going to be a familiar system for all Kubernetes lovers. >> Great, and Mark. >> Well as we talked about today, we are very excited about the EveryBridge announcement, and if you are interested in a cloud native, serverless, digital transformation we think we have great tools for you. But on a more personal and global note, I think Sebastien hit something that's really important, it's that even though we are not all together it's really important to check in. Even these virtual sessions have been, it's nice to interact with your colleagues and friends in the industry but be kind to each other and don't just take it for granted. that everything is good at the other end of the wire so reach out to each other and we'll all get through this together. >> Well Mark and Sebastien, thank you so much for joining us. Absolutely the personal pieces as well as TriggerMesh. You're helping to pull some of those technology communities together so congratulations on the progress and definitely look forward to tracking where you go from here. >> Thanks Stu. >> Thanks a lot. >> We appreciate it. >> All right be sure to check out theCUBE.net, we will be covering KubeCon and CloudNativeCon Europe as it goes virtual as well as lots of others in the cloud developer space. I'm Stu Miniman and thank you for watching theCUBE. (upbeat music)

>> Announcer: From around the globe, it's theCUBE, with digital coverage of Red Hat Summit 2020, brought to you by Red Hat. >> Hi, I'm Stu Miniman, and this is theCUBE's coverage of Red Hat Summit, happening digitally, interviewing practitioners, executives, and thought leaders from around the world. Happy to welcome back to our program, one of our CUBE alumni, Ashesh Badani, who's the Senior Vice President of Cloud Platforms with Red Hat. Ashesh, thank you so much for joining us, and great to see you. >> Yeah, likewise, thanks for having me on, Stu. Good to see you again. >> All right, so, Ashesh, since the last time we had you on theCUBE a few things have changed. One of them is that IBM has now finished the acquisition of Red Hat, and I've heard from you from a really long time, you know, OpenShift, it's anywhere and it's everywhere, but with the acquisition of Red Hat, it just means this only runs on IBM mainframes and IBM Cloud, and all things blue, correct? >> Well, that's true for sure, right? So, Stu, you and I have been talking for many, many times. As you know, we've been committed to hybrid multi-cloud from the very get-go, right? So, OpenShift supported to run on bare metal, on virtualization platforms, whether they come from us, or VMware, or Microsoft Hyper-V, on private clouds like OpenStack, as well as AWS, Google Cloud, as well as on Azure. Now, with the completion of the IBM acquisition of Red Hat, we obviously always partnered with IBM before, but given, if you will, a little bit of a closer relationship here, you know, IBM's been very keen to make sure that they promote OpenShift in all their platforms. So as you can probably see, OpenShift on IBM Cloud, as well as OpenShift on Z on mainframe, so regardless of how you like OpenShift, wherever you like OpenShift, you will get it. >> Yeah, so great clarification. It's not only on IBM, but of course, all of the IBM environments are supported, as you said, as well as AWS, Google, Azure, and the like. Yeah, I remember years ago, before IBM created their single, condensed conference of THINK, I attended the conference that would do Z, and Power, and Storage, and people would be like, you know, "What are they doing with that mainframe?" I'm like, "Well, you do know that it can run Linux." "Wait, it can run Linux?" I'm like, "Oh my god, Z's been able to run Linux "for a really long time." So you want your latest Container, Docker, OpenShift stuff on there? Yeah, that can sit on a mainframe. I've talked to some very large, global companies that that is absolutely a part of their overall story. So, OpenShift-- >> Interesting you say that, because we already have customers who've been procuring OpenShift on mainframe, so if you made the invest mainframe, it's running machine learning applications for you, looking to modernize some of the applications and services that run on top in OpenShift on mainframe now is an available option, which customers are already taking advantage of. So exactly right to your point, we're seeing that in the market today. >> Yeah, and Ashesh, maybe it's good to kind of, you know, you've got a great viewpoint as to customers deploying across all sorts of environments, so you mentioned VMware environments, the public cloud environment. It was our premise a few years ago on theCUBE that Kubernetes get staked into all the platforms, and absolutely, it's going to just be a layer underneath. I actually think we won't be talking a lot about Kubernetes if you fast-forward a couple of years, just because it's in there. I'm using it in all of my environments. So what are you seeing from your customers? Where are we in that general adoption, and any specifics you can give us about, you know, kind of the breadth and the depth of what you're seeing from your customer base? >> Yeah, so, you're exactly right. We're seeing that adoption continue on the path it's been on. So we've got now, over 1700 customers for OpenShift, running in all of these environments that you mentioned, so public, private, a combination of the two, running on traditional virtualization environments, as well as ensuring that they run in public cloud at scale. In some cases managed by customers, in other cases managed by us on their behalf in a public cloud. So, we're seeing all permutation, if you will, of that in play today. We're also seeing a huge variety of workloads, and to me, that's actually really interesting and fascinating. So, earliest days, as you'd expect, people trying to play with micro-services, so trying to build new market services and run it, so cloud native, what have you. Then as we're ensuring that we're supporting stateful application, right. Now you're starting to see if your legacy applications move on, ensuring that we can run them, support them at scale, within the platform 'cause we're looking to modernize applications. We'll talk maybe in a few minutes also about lift-and-shift that we got to play as well. But now also we're starting to see new workloads come on. So just most recently we announced some of the work that we're doing with a series of partners, from NVIDIA to emerging AI ML, AI, artificial intelligence machine learning, frameworks or ISVs, looking to bring those to market. Been ensuring that those are supported and can run with OpenShift. Right, our partnership with NVIDIA, ensuring OpenShift be supported on GPU based environment for specific workloads, whether it be performance sensitive or specific workloads that take advantage of underlying hardware. So starting now to see a wide variety if you will, of application types is also something that we're starting, right, so numbers of customers increasing, types of workloads, you know, coming on increasing, and then the diversity of underlying deployment environments. Where they're running all services. >> Ashesh, such an important piece and I'm so glad you talked about it there. 'Cause you know my background's infrastructure and we tend to look at things as to "Oh well, I moved from VM to a container, "to cloud or all these other things," but the only reason infrastructure exists is to run my application, is my data and my application that are the most important things out there. So Ashesh, let me get in some of the news that you got here, your team work on a lot of things, I believe one of them talks about some of those, those new ways that customers are building applications and how OpenShift fits into those environments. >> Yeah, absolutely. So look, we've been on this journey as you know for several years now. You know recently we announced the GA of OpenShift Service Mesh in support of Istio, increasing an interest as for turning microservices will take advantage of close capabilities that are coming in. At this event we're now also announcing the GA of OpenShift Serverless. We're starting to see obviously a lot of interest, right, we've seen the likes of AWS spawn that in the first instance, but more and more customers are interested in making sure that they can get a portable way to run serverless in any Kubernetes environment, to take advantage of open source projects as building blocks, if you will, so primitives in, within Kubernetes to allow for serverless capabilities, allow for scale down to zero, supporting serving and eventing by having portable functions run across those environments. So that's something that is important to us and we're starting to see support of in the marketplace. >> Yeah, so I'd love just, obviously I'm sure you've got lots of break outs in the OpenShift Serverless, but I've been talking to your team for a number of years, and people, it's like "Oh, well, just as cloud killed everything before it, "serverless obviates the need for everything else "that we were going to use before." Underlying OpenShift Serverless, my understanding, Knative either is the solution, or a piece of the solution. Help us understand what serverless environment this ties into, what this means for both your infrastructure team as well as your app dev team. >> Yeah, great, great question, so Knative is the basis of our serverless solution that we're introducing on OpenShift to the marketplace. The best way for me to talk about this is there's no one size fits all, so you're going to have specific applications or service that will take advantage of serverless capabilities, there will be some others that will take advantage of running within OpenShift, there'll be yet others, we talked about the AI ML frameworks, that will run with different characteristics, also within the platform. So now the platform is being built to help support a diversity, a multitude of different ways of interacting with it, so I think maybe Stu, you're starting to allude to this a little bit, right, so now we're starting to focus on, we've got a great set of building blocks, on the right compute network storage, a set of primitives that Kubernetes laid out, thinking of the notions of clustering and being able to scale, and we'll talk a little bit about management as well of those clusters. And then it changes to a, "What are the capabilities now, "that I need to build to make sure "that I'm most effective, most efficient, "regard to these workloads that I bring on?" You're probably hearing me say workloads now, several times, because we're increasingly focused on adoption, adoption, adoption, how can we ensure that when these 1700 plus, hopefully, hundreds if not thousands more customers come on, how they can get the most variety of applications onto this platform, so it can be a true abstraction over all the underlying physical resources that they have, across every deployment that they put out. >> All right, well Ashesh, I wish we could spend another hour talking about the serverless piece, I definitely am going to make sure I check out some of the breakouts that cover the piece that we talked to you, but, I know there's a lot more that the OpenShift update adds, so what other announcements, news, do you have to cover for us? >> Yeah, so a couple other things I want to make sure I highlight here, one is a capability called ACM, advanced cluster management, that we're introducing. So it was an experimental work that was happening with the IBM team, working on cluster management capabilities, we'd been doing some of that work ourselves, within Red Hat, as part of IBM and Red Hat coming together. We've had several folks from IBM actually join Red Hat, and so we're now open sourcing and providing this cluster management capability, so this is the notion of being able to run and manage these different clusters from OpenShift, at scale, across multiple environments, be able to check on cluster health, be able to apply policy consistently, provide governance, ensure that appropriate applications are running in appropriate clusters, and so on, a series of capabilities, to really allow for multiple clusters to be run at scale and managed effectively, so that's one set of, go ahead, Stu. >> Yeah, if I could, when I hear about multicluster management, I think of some of the solutions that I've heard talked about in the industry, so Azure Arc from Microsoft, Tanzu from VMware, when they talk about multicluster management, it is not only the Kubernetes solutions that they're offering, but also, how do I at least monitor, if not even allow a little bit of control across these environments? So when you talk about cluster management, is that all the OpenShift pieces, or things like AKS, EKS, other options out there, how do those fit into the overall management story? >> Yeah, that's absolutely our goal, right, so we've got to get started somewhere, right? So we obviously want to make sure that we bring into effect the solution to manage OpenShift clusters at scale, and then of course as we would expect, multiple other clusters exist, from Kubernetes, like the ones you mentioned, from the cloud providers as well as others from third parties and we want the solution to manage that as well. But obviously we're going to sort of take steps to get to the endpoint of this journey, so yes, we will get there, we've got to get started somewhere. >> Yeah, and Ashesh, any guides, when you look at people, some of the solutions I mentioned out there, when they start out it's "Here's the vision." So what guidance would you give to customers about where we are, how fast they can expect these things to mature, and I know anything that Red Hat does is going to be fully open source and everything, what's your guidance out there as to what customers should be looking for? >> Yeah, so we're at an interesting point, I think, in this Kubernetes journey right now, and so when we, if you will, started off, and Stu you and I have been talking about this for at least five years if not longer, was this notion that we want to provide a platform that can be portable and successfully run in multiple deployment environments. And we've done that over these years. But all the while when we were doing that, we're always thinking about, what are the capabilities that are needed that are perhaps not developed upstream, but will be over time, but we can ensure that we can look ahead and bring that into the platform. And for a really long time, and I think we still do, right, we at Red Hat take a lot of stick for saying "Hey look, you form the platform." Our outcome back to that has always been, "Look, we're trying to help solve problems "that we believe enterprise customers have, "we want to ensure that they're available open source, "and we want to upstream those capabilities always, "back into the community." But, let's say making available a platform without RBAC, role-based access control, well it's going to be hard then for enterprises to adopt that, we've got to make sure we introduce that capability, and then make sure that it's supported upstream as well. And there's a series of capabilities and features like that that we work through. We've always provided an abstraction within OpenShift to make it more productive for developers and administrators to use it. And we always also support working with kubectl or the command line interface from kube as well. And then we always hear back from folks saying "Well, you've got your own abstraction, "that might make that seem impossible," Nope, you can use both kubectl GPUs or C commands, whichever one is better for you, have at it, we're just trying to be more productive. And now increasingly what we're seeing in the marketplace is this notion that we've got to make sure we work our way up from not just laying out a Kubernetes distribution, but thinking about the additional capability, additional services that you can provide, that would be more valuable to customers, and I think Stu, you were making the point earlier, increasingly, the more popular and the more successful Kubernetes becomes, the less you will see and hear of it, which by the way is exactly the way it should be, because that becomes then the basis of your underlying infrastructure, you are confident that you've got a rock solid bottom, and now you as a customer, you as a user, are focusing all of your energy and time on building the productive application and services on top. >> Yeah, great great points there Ashesh, the vision people always talked about is "If I'm leveraging cloud services, "I shouldn't have to worry "about what version they're running." Well, when it comes to Kubernetes, ultimately we should be able to get there, but I know there's always a little bit of a delta between the latest and newest version of Kubernetes that comes out, and what the managed services, and not only managed services, what customers are doing in their own environment. Even my understanding, even Google, which is where Kubernetes came out of, if you're looking at GKE, GKE is not on the latest, what are we on, 1.19, from the community, Ashesh, so what's Red Hat's position on this, what version are you up to, how do you think customers should think about managing across those environments, because boy, I've got too many scars from interoperability history, go back 10 or 15 years and everything, "Oh, my server BIOS doesn't work on that latest "kernel.org version of what we're doing for Linux." Red Hat is probably better prepared than any company in the industry, to deal with that massive change happening from a code-based standpoint, I've heard you give presentations on the history of Linux and Kubernetes, and what's going forward, so when it comes to the release of Kubernetes, where are you with OpenShift, and how should people be thinking about upgrading from versions? >> Yeah, another excellent point, Stu, it's clearly been following us pretty closely over the years, so where we came at this, was we actually learned quite a bit from our experience in the company with OpenStack. And so what would happen with OpenStack is, you would have customers that are on a certain version of Openstack, and then they kept saying "Hey look, we want to consume close to trunk, "we want new features, we want to go faster." And we'd obviously spent some time, from the release in community to actually shipping our distribution into customer's hand, there's going to be some amount of time for testing and QE to happen, and some integration points that need to be certified, before we make it available. We often found that customers lagged, so there'd be let's say a small subset if you will within every customer or several customers who want to be consuming close to trunk, a majority actually want stability. Especially as time wore on, they were more interested in stability. And you can understand that, because now if you've got mission critical applications running on it you don't necessarily want to go and put that at risk. So the challenge that we addressed when we actually started shipping OpenShift four last summer, so about a year ago, was to say, "How can we provide you basically a way "to help upgrade your clusters, "essentially remotely, so you can upgrade, "if you will, your clusters, or at least "be able to consume them at different speeds." So what we introduced with OpenShift four was this ability to give you over the air updates, so the best way to think about it is with regard to a phone. So you have your phone, your new OS upgrades show up, you get a notification, you turn it on, and you say "Hey, pull it down," or you say at a certain point of time, or you can go off and delay it, do it at a different point in time. That same notion now exists within OpenShift. Which is to say, we provide you three channels, so there's a stable channel where you say "Hey look, maybe this cluster in production, "no rush here, I'll stay at or even a little behind," there's a fast channel for "Hey, I want to be up latest and greatest," or there's a third channel which allows for essentially features that are being in developed, or are still in early stage of development to be pushed out to you. So now you can start consuming these upgrades based on "Hey, I've got a dev team, "on day one I get these quicker," "I've got these applications that are stable in production, "no rush here." And then you can start managing that better yourself. So now if you will, those are capabilities that we're introducing into a Kubernetes platform, a standard Kubernetes platform, but adding additional value, to be able to have that be managed much much, in a much better fashion that serves the different needs of different parts of an organization, allows for them to move at different speeds, but at the same time, gives you that same consistent platform regardless of where you are. >> All right, so Ashesh, we started out the conversation talking about OpenShift anywhere and everywhere, so in the cloud, you talked about sitting on top of VMware, VM Farms is very prevalent in the data centers, or bare metal. I believe since I saw, one of the updates for OpenShift is how Red Hat virtualization is working with OpenShift there, and a lot of people out there are kind of staring out what VMware did with VSphere seven, so maybe you can set it up with a little bit of a compare contrast as to how Red Hat's doing this rollout, versus what you're seeing your partner VMware doing, or how Kubernetes fits into the virtualization environment. >> Yeah, I feel like we're both approaching it from different perspective and learnset that we come at it, so if I can, the VMware perspective is likely "Hey look, there's all these installations of VSphere "in the marketplace, how can we make sure "that we help bring containers there," and they've come up with a solution that you can argue is quite complicated in the way how they're achieving it. Our approach is a different one, right, so we always looked at this problem from the get-go with regard to containers as a new paradigm shift, it's not necessarily a revolution, because most companies that we're looking at are working with existing application services, but it's an evolution in the way you're thinking about the world, but this is definitely the long term future. And so how can we then think about introducing this environment, this application platform into the environment, and then be able to build a new application in it, but also bring in existing applications to the form? And so with this release of OpenShift, what we're introducing is something that we're calling OpenShift Virtualization, which is a few of our existing applications, certain VMs, how can we ensure that we bring those VMs into the platform, they've been certified, data security boundaries around it, or certain constraints or requirements have been put by your internal organization around it, and we can keep all of those, but then still encapsulate that VM as a container, have that be run natively within an environment orchestrated by OpenShift, Kubernetes as the primary orchestrator of those VMs, just like it does with everything else that's cloud-native, or is running directly as containers as well. We think that's extremely powerful, for us to really bring now the promise of Kubernetes into a much wider market, so I talked about 1700 customers, you can argue that that 1700 is the early majority, or if you will, almost the scratching of the surface of the numbers that we believe will adopt this platform. To get, if you held the next setup, whatever, five, 10, 20,000 customers, we'll have to make sure we meet them where they are. And so introducing this notion of saying "We can help migrate," with a series of tools that Rock's providing, these VM-based applications, and then have them run within Kubernetes in a consistent fashion, is going to be extremely powerful, and we're really excited about it, by those capabilities, bringing that to our customers. >> Well Ashesh, I think that puts a great exclamation point as to how we go from these early days off to the vast majority of environments, Ashesh, one thing, congratulations to you and the team on the growth, the momentum, all the customer stories, I'd love the opportunity to talk to many of the Red Hat customers about their digital transformation and how your cloud platforms have been a piece of it, so once again, always a pleasure to catch up with you. >> Likewise, thanks a lot, Stuart, good chatting with you, and hope to see you in person soon sometime. >> Absolutely, we at theCUBE of course hope to see you at events later in 2020, for the time being, we of course fully digital, always online, check out theCUBE.net for all of the archives as well as the events including all the digital ones that we are doing, I'm Stu Miniman, and as always, thanks for watching theCUBE. 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>> Presenter: From San Francisco, it's theCUBE. Covering GitLab Commit 2020. Brought to you by GitLab. >> Hi, I'm Stu Miniman, and this is theCUBE's coverage of GitLab Commit 2020 here in San Francisco. You might notice some of our guests have some jackets on. It is a little cooler than normal here in San Francisco, but the community and knowledge is keeping us all warm. Joining us for the first time on the program is Nicholas Klick, who is an engineering manager at GitLab. Thanks so much for joining us. >> Thanks for inviting me. >> Alright, so you had an interesting topic. The state of serverless in 2020 was the session that you gave. Definitely a topic we love covering on theCUBE, something I personally have been digging into, trying to understand. Definitely something that the developers, and especially the app devs that I speak with, are very bullish on, so what is the state of serverless in 2020? >> That's actually a good question. So, my talk was actually broken into two parts. One was, like initially I just wanted to help provide a clear definition of what serverless is. In my opinion, serverless is more than just functions. There are a lot of other a lot of other technologies, like backend is a service, API gateways, service integration proxies that you can stitch together to create dynamic applications. So, I created a more expanded definition of what serverless is from my perspective, and the other part was to really talk about three things that I'm finding exciting right now in the serverless space. The first was Knative, and the fact that Knative is likely going to go to GA pretty soon, so it'll be production ready, and we can finally build production workloads on it. The second is that running serverless at the edge I find to be an exciting topic. And then finally, talking more in depth on those, the service integrations. Of how you can actually create applications that don't include functions at all, so functionless serverless. >> Yeah, so a lot of things I definitely want to tease out of that, but Nicholas, I guess maybe we should step back a second-- >> Nicholas: Okay. >> And was there survey work, or was there something done, or is this kind of something related to your job that you put together as just an important topic? >> Yeah, I know this is just me speaking as someone that works in the space and sees the technology is evolving and just my opinions, I guess. >> Okay, when I talk to the practitioners, when you go and say, "Oh, they're interested in it." Chances are they're doing stuff on Amazon, is like what kind of the first piece of it tends to be. There are lots of open source projects out there, but it's still this kind of dominated by Amazon. Azure has some pieces, of course. Google has things they're doing. I liked how you teased out that serverless definitely isn't a thing, and the definition, and even the term itself, gets people all riled up and things like that, so I hate getting into the ontological arguments, but the promise of it is that I can build applications in a different way, and I shouldn't have to think about some of the underlying components, hence the name serverless, kind of-- >> Right. >> does that, but it definitely is a change in mindset as to how I build and consume environments. >> Right. Right, and like another point that I made in the talk, that I believe pretty strongly, is that serverless is not something that's going to replace monoliths and microservices. I believe it's another tool in the tool belt of the developer, of the operator, to solve problems, and that we should look at it like that. It shouldn't be, it's not the next progression in application architecture. >> Yeah, I've met some companies that are 100%, they've built everything on serverless, but that's like saying I've met plenty of companies that are all in the cloud. It depends on what you do and what your business is. >> Nicholas: Right. >> When we look at the enterprise, it is a broad spectrum, and making changes along that path is something that typically takes a decade or more, and they have hundreds, if not thousands of applications, and therefore, we understand. I've got my stuff running on my mainframe through my latest microservice architecture, and everything in between. >> Right, and I mean I'm speaking as an employee of GitLab, and we have a very well known monolith that we deploy, and so for my opinion, I don't believe that monoliths are going to die any time soon. >> Alright, I'd love you to tease out some of those pieces that you talked about, the three items you talked about: Knative. You know, Knative is interesting. The thing I poked at when I go to KubenCon and CloudNativeCon is today I mentioned when I think about customers, most of them are using Amazon. The second choice is they're probably doing Azure, and today Knative directly doesn't work with EKS, AKS, or the like. I know there's a solution like trigger match that actually will interact-- >> Right. >> Between the Amazon and there, but don't you need the buy-in of Amazon and Microsoft for Knative to be taken seriously. And the other thing is, Google still hasn't opened up the-- >> Right. >> the Google controls, the governance of both Istio and Knative, and there are some concerns in the ecosystem about that, so what makes you so bullish on Knative. >> Yeah, so I'm definitely aware of some of the discussions around Knative. From my perspective, I think that Knative is, if someone is already operating a lot of Kubernetes infrastructure, if they already have those, that infrastructure running, then deploying Knative to it is not that much more of a it doesn't require additional resources and expense, so it could be, again it depends on their use case, and I think that, when I think about serverless, I try to remain pragmatic, so if I'm already using Kubernetes, and I want a simple serverless runtime, Knative would be a great option in that situation. If I want to be able to work cross-cloud, like this is another opportunity that Knative provides, is the ability of deploying to any Kubernetes cluster anywhere, so it has that, you know, that, there's not a vendor lock-in issue with Knative. >> Yeah, and absolutely there was initially some concern that, could serverless actually be the ultimate lock-in? >> Right. >> I'm going to go deep on one provider and don't have a way. There, open source groups like the CNCF trying to help along those ways-- >> Sure. >> Knative absolutely along those ways looking at that environment. From a GitLab customer's standpoint, GitLab's not tied to whether you're doing containers or serverless or VMs or in the environment. What does it mean for GitLab customers? If I want to look at serverless, how does that fit into my overall work flow? >> Yeah, so initially at GitLab we focused on providing the ability to deploy to Knative. That was, we were very early in the Knative space, and I think that as it's matured, as those APIs have matured, then our product has kind of developed, and so right now we enable you to be able to create Kubernetes clusters through our interface and then deploy your function run times directly from your GitLab repo. We've also, are kind of growing in our our examples and documentation of how to integrate GitLab CI/CD with Lambda. That's another big area that we're moving into as well. >> Great. As you look forward to 2020, we've got a whole new decade in front of us, what should, what do you think people should be watching on in the maturity of this space. >> Yeah, so I think that the point that I touched on earlier of the service integrations, I think that that is something you're going to see more and more of. Of the providers themselves linking together their different services and enabling you to create these dynamic applications without a lot of glue that you have to manually create in between. I think that we're going to see, you know, more open source frameworks, like, for example, Service Framework or Terraform that people want the, I mean, I know that a lot of people use, for example, AWS SAM. People want easier ways, and faster ways, to be able to deploy their serverless, so you have the bootstrapping of serverless. I guess, another thing that I expect is that the serverless, the serverless development life cycle will mature, in that whether going from bootstrapping to testing, deployment, monitoring security, I believe you're going to see companies that will start to really fill in that entire space, the same way that they do for monoliths and microservices. >> Yeah, absolutely. Thank you so much, Nicholas. Definitely something we've been tracking over the last year or so. You start to see many in the tool chain of cloud native environments digging into serverless, helping to mature those solutions, and definitely an area to watch closely. >> Great. >> Alright. Lot's more coverage. Check out theCUBE.net for all the events that we will be at through 2020 as well. If you can go back and see we've actually done Serverlessconf a couple of years, many of the other cloud and cloud native shows. Search in our index. I'm Stu Miniman, and thank you for watching theCUBE. (energetic electronic music)

>> Announcer: Live from San Diego, California, it's theCUBE covering KubeCon and CloudNativeCon. Brought to you by RedHat, the CloudNative Computing Foundation, and its ecosystem partners. >> Stu: Welcome back to theCUBE, I'm Stu Miniman. My cohost for three days of coverage is John Troyer. We're here at KubeCon CloudNativeCon in San Diego, over 12,000 in attendance and happy to welcome back a CUBE alumni and veteran of generations of the stacks that we've seen come together and change over the time, Sheng Liang, who is the co-founder and CEO of Rancher Labs. Thanks so much, great to see you. >> Shang: Thank you Stuart, is very glad to be here. >> All right, so you know Kubernetes, flash to the pan nobody's all that excited about it. I mean, we've seen all these things come and go over the years, Sheng. No but seriously, the excitement is palpable. Every year, you know, so many more people, so many more projects, so much more going on. Help set the stage for you, as to what you see and the importance today of kind of CloudNative in general and you know, this ecosystem specifically. >> Yeah you're so right though, Stuart. Community as a whole and Kubernetes has really come a long way. In the early days, Kubernetes was a uh, you know, somewhat of a technical community, lot of Linux people. But not a whole lot of end users. Not a whole lot of Enterprise customers. I walk in today and just the kind of people I've met, I've probably talked to fifty people already who are just really at the beginning of the show and uh there's a very very large number Enterprise customers. And this does feel like Kubernetes has crossed the chasm and headed in to the mainstream Enterprise market. >> Yeah it's interesting you know I've talked to you know plenty of the people here probably if you brought up things like OpenStack and CloudStack they wouldn't even know what we were talking about. The wave of containerization really seemed to spread far and wide. At Rancher you've done some surveys, give us some of the insight. What are you seeing? You've talked to plenty of customers. Give us where we are with the maturity. >> Definitely, definitely. Enterprise Kubernetes adoption is ready for prime time. You know the So what we're really seeing is some of the early challenges a few years ago a lot of people were having problems with just installing Kubernetes. They were literally just making sure to get people educated about container as a concept. Those have been overcome. Now, uh, we're really facing next generation of growth. And people solve these days solve problems like how do I get my new applications onboarding to Kubernetes. How do I really integrate Kubernetes into my multicloud and hybrid-Cloud strategy? And as Enterprise's need to perform computing in places beyond just the data centers and the cloud, we're also seeing tremendous amount of interest in running Kubernetes on the Edge. So those are some of the major findings of our survey. >> John: That's great. So Sheng I'd love for you to kind of elaborate or elaborate for us where Rancher fits into this. Right. Rancher is, you've been around, you've a mature stack of technology and also some new announcements today so I'd kind of love for you to kind of tell us how you fit in to that landscape you just described. >> Absolutely. This is very exciting and very very fast changing industry. So one of the things that Rancher is able to play very well is we're really able to take work with the community, take the latest and greatest open source technology and actually develop open source products on top this and make that technology useful and consumable for Enterprise at large. So the way we see it, to make Kubernetes work we really need to solve problems at three levels. At the lowest level, the industry need at lot of compliant and compatible certified Kubernetes distros and services. So that's table stakes now. Rancher is a leader in providing CNCF certified Kubernetes distro. We actually provide two of them. One of them is called RKE - Rancher Kubernetes Engine. Something we've been doing it for years. It's really one of the easiest to use and most widely deployed Kubernetes distributions. But we don't force our customers to only use our Kubernetes distribution. Rancher customers can use whatever CNCF certified Kubernetes distribution or Kubernetes services they want. So a lot of our customers use RKE(Rancher Kubernetes Engine) but they also use, when they go to the cloud, they use cloud hosted Kubernetes Services like GKE and EKS. There are really a lot of advantages in using those because cloud providers will help you run these Kubernetes clusters for free. And in many cases they even throw in the infrastructure it takes to run the Kubernetes masters and etcd databases for free. If you're in the cloud, there's really no reason not to be using these Kubernetes services. Now there's one area that Rancher ended up innovating at the Kubernetes distros, despite having these data center focus and cloud focus Kubernetes distros and services. And that is one of our, one of the two big announcements today. And that's called K3S. K3S is a great open source project. It's probably one of the most exciting open source projects in the Kubernetes ecosystem today. And what we did with K3S is we took Kubernetes that's been proven in data center and cloud and we brought it everywhere. So with K3S you can run Kubernetes on a Raspberry Pi. You can run Kubernetes in a surveillance camera. You can run Kubernetes in an ATM machine. You know, we have customers trying to run now Kubernetes in a uh, factory floor. So it really helps us realize our vision of Kubernetes as a new Linux and you run it everywhere. >> Well that's great 'cause you talk about that simplicity that we need and if you start talking about Edge deployment, I don't have the people, I don't have the skillset, and a lot times I don't have the gear, uh, to run that. So you know, help connect the dots as to you know, what led Rancher to do the K3S piece of it and you know, what did we take out? Or what's the differences between K8S and the K3S? >> That's a great question, you know. Even the name "K3S" is actually somewhat a wordplay on K8S You know we kind of cut half of 8 away and you're left with 3. It really happened with some of our early traction we sawing some customers. I remember, in retrospect it wasn't really that long ago. It was like middle of last year, we saw a blog coming out of Chick-fil-A and a group of technical enthusiasts were experimenting with actually running uh, Kubernetes in very, in like Intel Nook servers. You know, they were talking about potentially running three of those servers in every one of their stores and at the time they were using RKE and Rancher Kubernetes Engine to do that. And they run into a lot of issues. I mean to be honest if you think about running Kubernetes in the cloud in the database center, uh these servers have a lot of resources and you also have a dedicated operations teams. You have an SRE to manage them, right? But when you really bring it out into branch offices and Edge computing locations, now all of the sudden, number one, these uh, the software now has to take a lot less resource but also you don't really have SREs monitoring them every day anymore. And you, since these, Kubernetes distro really has to be zero touch and it has to run just like a, you know like a embedded window or Linux server. And that's what K3S was able to accomplish, we were able to really take away lot of the baggage that came with having all the drivers that were necessary to run Kubernetes in the cloud and we were also able to dramatically simplify what it takes to actually start Kubernetes and operate it. >> So unsolicited, I was doing an event right before this one and I asked some people what they looking forward to here at KubeCon. And independently, two different people said, "The thing I'm most excited about is K3S." And I think it's because it's the right slice through Kubernetes. I can run it in my lab. I can run it on my laptop. I can on a stack of Raspberry Pis or Nooks, but I could also run it in production if I, you know I can scale it up >> Stu: Yeah. >> John: And in fact they both got a twinkle in their eye and said well what if this is the future of Kubernetes, like you could take this and you could run it, you know? They were very excited about it. >> Absolutely! I mean, you know, I really think, you know, as a company we survive by, and thrive by delivering the kind of innovation that pushes the market forward right? I mean, we, otherwise people are not going to look at Rancher and say you guys are the originators of Kubernetes technology. So we're very happy to be able to come up with technologies like K3S that effectively greatly broadened the addressable market for everyone. Imagine you were a security vendor and before like all you really got to do is solving security problems. Or if you were a monitoring vendor you were able to solve monitoring problems for a data center and in the cloud. Now with K3S you end up getting to solve the same problems on the Edge and in branch offices. So that's why so many people are so excited about it. >> All right so Sheng you said K3S is one of the announcements this week, what's the rest of the news? >> Yeah so K3S, RKE, and all the GKE, AKS, EKS, they're really the fundamental layer of Kubernetes everywhere. Then on top of that one of the biggest piece of innovation that Rancher labs created is the idea of multi-cluster management. A few years ago it was pretty much of a revolutionary concept. Now it's widely understood. Of course an organization is not going to have just one cluster, they're going to have many clusters. So Rancher is the industry leader for doing multi-cluster management. And these clusters could span clouds, could span data centers, now all the way out to branch offices and the Edge. So we're exhibiting Rancher on the show floor. Everyone, most people I've met here, they know Rancher because of that flash of product. Now our second announcement though is yet another level above Rancher, so what we've seen is in order to really Kubernetes to achieve the next level of adoption in the Enterprise we're seeing you know some of the development teams and especially the less skilled dev ops teams, they're kind of struggling with the learning curve of Kubernetes and also some of the associated technologies around service mesh around Knative, around, you know, CICD, so we created a project called Rio, as in Rio de Janeiro the city. And the nice thing about Rio is it packaged together all these Cloud Native technologies and then we created very easy to use, very simple to understand user experience for developers and dev ops teams. So they no longer have to start with the training course on Kubernetes, on Istio, on Knative, on Tekton, just to get productive. They can pretty much get productive on day one. So that Rio project has hit a very important milestone today, we shipped the beta release for it and we're exhibiting it at the booth as well. >> Well that's great. You know, the beta release of Rio, pulling together a lot of these projects. Can you talk about some folks that, early adopters that have been using them or some folks that have been working with the project? >> Sheng: Yeah absolutely. So I talk about some of the early adoption we're seeing for both K3S and Rio. Uh, what we see the, first of all just the market reception of K3S, as you said, has been tremendous. Couple of even mentioned to you guys today in your earlier interviews. And it is primarily coming from customers who want to run Kubernetes in places you probably haven't quite anticipated before, so I kind of give you two examples. One is actually appliance manufacture. So if you think they used to ship appliances, then you can imagine these appliances come with Linux and they would image their appliance with an OS image with their applications. But what's happening is these applications are becoming so sophisticated they're now talking about running the entire data analytics stack and AI software. So it actually takes Kubernetes not necessarily, because it's one server in a situation of appliance. Kubernetes is not really managing a cluster, but it's managing all the application components and microservices. So they ended up bundling up K3S into their appliance. This is one example. Another example is actually an ISV, that's a very interesting use case as well. So uh, they ship a micro service based application software stack and again their software involves a lot of different complicated components. And they decided to replatform their software on Kubernetes. We've all heard a lot of that! But in their case they have to also ship, they don't just run the software themselves, they have to ship the software to the end users. And most of their end users are not familiar with Kubernetes yet, right? And they don't really want to say, to install our software you go provision the Kubernetes cluster and then you operate it from now on. So what they did is they took K3S and bundled into their application as if it were an application server, almost like a modern day WebLogic and WebSphere, then they shipped the whole thing to their customers. So I thought both of these use cases are really interesting. It really elevates the reach of Kubernetes from just being almost like a cloud platform in the old days to now being an application server. And then I'll also quickly talk about Rio. A lot of interest inside Rio is around really dev ops teams who've had, I mean, we did a survey early on and we found out that a lot of our customers they deploy Kubernetes in services. But they end up building a custom experience on top of their Kubernetes deployment, just so that most of their internal users wouldn't have to take a course on Kubernetes to start using it. So they can just tell that this thing that, this is where my source code is and then every thing from that point on will be automated. So now with Rio they wouldn't have to do that anymore. Effectively Rio is the direct source to URL type of, one step process. And they are able to adopt Rio for that purpose. >> So Sheng, I want to go back to when we started this conversation. You said, you know, the ecosystem growing. That not only, you know, so many vendors here, 129 end users, members of the CNCF. The theme we've been talking about is to really, you know, it's ready for production and people are all embracing it. But to get the vast majority of people, simplicity really needs to come front and center, I think. K3S really punctuates that. What else do we need to do as an ecosystem, you know, Rancher is looking to take a leadership position and help drive this, but what else do you want to see from your peers, the community, overall to help drive this to the promise that it could deliver. >> We really see the adoption of Kubernetes is probably going to wing at three, I mean. We see most organizations go through this three step journey. The first step is you got to install and operate Kubernetes. You know, day one, day two. And I think we've got it down. With K3S it becomes so easy. With GKE it becomes one API call or one simple UI interaction. And CNCS has really stepped up and created a great, you know, compliance certification program, right? So we're not seeing the kind of fragmentation that we saw with some of the other technologies. This is fantastic. Then the second step we see is, which a lot of our customers are going through now, is now you have all the Kubernetes clusters coming from different clouds, different infrastructure, potentially on the Edge. You have a management problem. Now you all of the sudden because we made Kubernetes clusters so easy to obtain you can potentially have a sprawl. If you are not careful you might leave them misconfigured. That could expose a security issue. So really it takes Rancher, it takes our ecosystem partners, like Twistlock, like Aqua. CICD partners, like CloudBees, GitLab. Just everyone really needs to come together, make that, solve that management problem. So not only, uh, you build this Kubernetes infrastructure but then you actually going to get a lot of users and they can use the cluster securely and reliably. Then I think the third step, which I think a lot of work still remain is we really want to focus on growing the footprint of workload, of enterprise workload, in the enterprise. So there the work is honestly just getting started. Anywhere from uh, if you walk into any enterprise you know what percentage of their total workload is running on Kubernetes today? I mean outside of Google and Uber, that percentage is probably very small, right? They're probably in the minority, maybe even in single digit percentage. So, we really need to do a lot of work. You know, we need to uh, Rancher created this project called LongHorn and we also work with a lot of our ecosystem partners in persistence storage area like Portworx, StorageOS, OpenEBS. Lot of us really need to come together and solve this problem of running persistent workload. I mean there was also a lot of talk about it at the keynote this morning, I was very encouraged to hear that. That could easily double, triple the amount of workload that could bring, that could be onboarded into Kubernetes and even experiences like Rio, you know? Make it further simpler, more accessible. That is really in the DNA of Rancher. Rancher wouldn't be surviving and thriving without our insight into how to make our technology consumable and widely adopted. So a lot of work we're doing is really to drive the adoption of Kubernetes in the enterprise beyond, you know, the current state and into something I really don't see in the future, Kubernetes wouldn't be as actually widely used as say AWS or vSphere. That would be my bar for success. Hopefully in a few years we can be talking about that. >> All right, that is a high bar Sheng. We look forward to more conversations with you going forward. Congratulations on the announcement. Great buzz on K3S, and yeah, thanks so much for joining us. >> Thank you very much. >> For John Troyer, I'm Stu Miniman, back with lots more coverage here from KubeCon CloudNativeCon 2019 in San Diego, you're watching theCUBE. [Upbeat music]

(upbeat music) >> From our studios in the heart of Silicon Valley, Palo Alto, California, this is a CUBE Conversation. >> Hello, everyone. Welcome to this special Cube conversation here in theCUBE studios here in Palo Alto, California. I'm John Furrier, host of theCUBE. We have a special series we're starting called Demystifying Cloud-Native. And I'm joined with my cohost for this series, Dominik Tornow, Principal Engineer with Cisco Office of the CTO. Dominik, thanks for joining me, and thanks for agreeing to participate in this awesome series around demystifying cloud-native. >> Hey, thanks for having me. >> So, cloud-native is hot, but it's changing. It's super important. Some people have a definition here or there. What is your definition of cloud-native. >> Well for, to define cloud-native, let's use a mechanical approach, alright. So, we are talking about cloud-native applications. So, the first question there would be "what is cloud?" Alright. And I personally define the cloud as a service provider that allows a service consumer to dynamically acquire and release resources. Now, from that point, with that definition in mind, we can define three related concepts. That would be public cloud, private cloud, and hybrid cloud. So, the public cloud is a service provider outside of your organization, the private cloud is a service provider inside your organization, and the hybrid cloud is a union of both. So, with this definition, we can define a cloud application. And a cloud application then is any application that runs on a cloud provider, alright. But now, what is a cloud-native application, alright? If I take a classical application and put it on the cloud it it becomes a cloud application by definition, but it doesn't become a cloud-native application. If we want to grasp cloud-native applications, alright, we've got to grasp a concept that is responsiveness. Responsiveness is very close to availability, but the term availability is highly overloaded. So, I personally like to talk about responsiveness. And responsiveness is a ability of an application to hit its service level agreements. Typically it's response time, right. A typical service level agreement may be 90% of my requests need to be served within 250 milliseconds. So, that is the responsiveness of an application. And now, we can define scalability and reliability. Scalability is responsiveness under load, and reliability is responsiveness under failure. And now to close the loop, we can define cloud-native. And my definition of a cloud-native application is a cloud application that is scalable and reliable by construction. >> Dominik, what is your view on hybrid versus multi-cloud? Cause that's something that we a lot of in the industry around hybrid being public private, a union of that. And you mentioned that. But the talk of multi-cloud is being kicked around a lot. What's the reality of multi-cloud? Is that just I have multiple clouds? What's the impact to development teams and companies as they think about hybrid and multi-cloud? >> So, the hybrid cloud, right, is an instance of a multi-cloud. Because by definition you have multiple cloud providers that make up the multi-cloud, and in the hybrid cloud, you have at least one public and at least one private cloud. And, of course, the implications whether it's public to public or public to private cloud are huge. It does effect your application all the way from the architecture down to the way how you operate your application, alright. And when it comes to, when it comes to multi-cloud, we are looking at significant challenges when it comes to the operation, automation, and the federation between the clouds. >> What do you think about the role Kubernetes is going to play in the enterprise? Cause right now, it's really, I think, one of the most popular, if not the most defacto things I've seen in many, many years. I think it's--to me I think-- The only thing I can think of as impactible as Kubernetes is going way back to TCPIP and what that meant for internet working, which spawned massive change, massive wealth creation, massive computing capabilities. It essentially created networking subnets and, as we know, networking as we know it. Kubernetes has that same feel to it in a whole another kind of modern way. It seems to be something that people are getting behind in a defacto--it's not officially a standard, I guess. Well, it could be. How important--what's the big deal around Kubernetes? What's your thoughts on this? >> Oh, Kubernetes are so--Kubernetes is definitely something that is exciting in the ecosystem because it puts cloud-native in all of our reach, right. With Kubernetes, cloud-native is up for grabs, alright. A cloud--any application, when you just put it on Kubernetes, it won't become a cloud-native application just by containerization, alright. But Kubernetes provides so many primitives that actually allow you to address the challenge of scalability and allow you to address the challenge of reliability. And top of that, it has, as you mentioned, the energy in the ecosystem, alright. And with Kubernetes, if you architect your application right, you do have a chance to efficiently, cost efficiently and also effort efficiently have a cloud-native application that is scalable and reliable by construction. And if you think about it, scalable and reliable by construction, that requires your application to be able to A, detect load and failure and B, mitigate load and failure. And now, if you take Kubernetes and you take it apart and you look under the hood, you see that the Kubernetes primitives are actually designed for that, alright. They allow you to-- They allow the application to scale itself. They allow the application to actually recover from failure. You do have to up and architect your application that way. If your application cannot handle partial failure, your container comes down and with your container you are actually losing vital state in your application. Kubernetes cannot help you with that. But if you architect it correctly, Kubernetes will never stop trying to actually meet your demands. >> That's a great point. How has Kubernetes changed the relationship between the application and the application developers' requirements. Because I think a lot of people see Kubernetes as this silver bullet. Oh my god, Kubernetes's going to solve all my problems. But that's not really what it is there for. You're kind of getting at that. Detecting failure, understanding the events... These are things that are super important. but the application folks have to do the work. Can you just unpack that relationship between the I'm the app builder. What's my relationship to Kubernetes? >> (laughs) A love hate relationship. Because Kubernetes is going to help you a lot, but Kubernetes also demands a lot, alright. So-- >> Explain that. Demands a lot. What did you mean by that? >> The architectures that we are used to. Sorry. >> It demands a lot. >> It demands a lot. The architectures that we are used to need to change, and if you come from, let's say 10 years ago, 15 years ago, right, and we are building a reactive application which at that point would just be called a web application, you have a request coming in, and a web server taking that request and basically spawning the request context. In that request context, your application is still sequential, alright. And if everything fails, the database is here to save the day, the transactions. It's here to save the day and will prevent you from running into any inconsistencies. Now, if you're in a microservice architecture world right, multiple different microservices, no transactions there to save the day. You have to architect with that reality in mind. Kubernetes cannot provide an abstraction that make the reality of distributed applications disappear and look like one local application. It cannot. However, it can support you if you've got the application architecture right. It can support you to actually bring the application to life. And in that case, I do like to differentiate between system, application, and platform. The application is all the bits that you build, right. The platform is all the bits that run your application. And it is the system, basically the combination once the application and the platform are composed, right, that is now scalable and reliable by construction. And you can rely on a lot of pieces when it comes to Kubernetes to actually make this a reality. >> So as people are out there thinking about cloud-native, this modern era's upon us. We've seen observability become a very important topic. And that, you know, that's basically network management in my mind. But we've seen observability have its own category and its big successes out there, PagerDuty, SignalFx, they all got li-- Well all these ventures got successes. Automation's another area. How do you see the interplay between automation and observability? Because Kubernetes has a lot of things going on. Application's going to have a lot more services happening and with microservices and other things. Observability and automation are two important concepts besides orchestration Kubernetes, though observability and automation. How do you see those fitting into that cloud-native architecture? >> So, observability. When we hear observability, right, we should ask ourself the question where "Who is the observed, and who is the observer? And classically, if you think of the observer, we think about ourselves, right? We have either the developers and we have an or we have an operation's team, and it is the operations team that is fed the data from the observability tool set, alright. However, now if we bring operations into the mixture, and especially operation automation, we can close the loop between observability, automation operation, and again, observability. That is the observability tool set, alright, monitoring the application, feeds into the operation of the application in order to actually, again, orchestrate parts of the application. And here with Kubernetes is actually the perfect example and a very simple example is autoscaling. So, autoscaling on Kubernetes, we are basically just monitoring either metrics like for example, CPU load or memory pressure, or CPU load and memory load, or we are looking into application metrics like the messages queued up in a message queue. And this is now the indicator for Kubernetes to actually scale up more pods on demand or scale down more pods on demand. And yes, this is not rocket science. We had this for a while, yet with Kubernetes and it's extensibility, right, we can take that further and further down up from a very generic level where we have autoscaling on a very generic level to an absolutely application specific or use case specific level. If you dig into Knative, for example, you will actually quickly discover that Knative is or, especially Knative Serving, one of the subsets on K Native, is a operations automation platform for microservice applications on Kubernetes. And again, it feeds the observability into the operations and the operations into the observability. >> They work hand in hand? >> They work hand in hand. >> Dominik, I want to ask you, put you on the spot here with a question, so take your time to think about this. What is the most important story or thread or topic or interest that people should pay attention to in this cloud-native wave? And the second part is what's the most important thing that people need to be paying attention to that they might not be paying attention to? >> Well, unfortunately, I think I have to disappoint you. The one most important one is actually very hard to find. It will influence everything. It will influence your organization. It will influence the architecture of your applications. It will influence how you operate these applications and how you move forward with new versions. So, which one is the most important one or the most significant one very much depends on your role. But there is absolutely no question that the cloud-native journey effects all of these roles. >> So, then, you could argue that the top story is that cloud-native is a completely new operating model different from the old way of doing it? >> Yes. >> Would you agree with that? >> I very much agree with that. >> Because some people think like "Cloud-native, I don't even know what that is. "I'm in the 1990s with my IT department, "and my application developer's still running "single threaded mainframes." >> You know, based on the definition-- Doesn't the definition actually sound pretty innocent? Alright. Scalable and reliable by construction. That actually doesn't sound like it's magic dust and that also doesn't sound too hard. But once you actually start uncovering and dive into what that actually means, right, then you see that the implications of that, right, are far reaching. It starts from UX engineering to software engineering to the operations, and it will effect the entire organization and organizational setup. >> Let's just say you and I are having a beer. It's Oktoberfest, you know, we're having a beer, and I say, "Hey, I have, you know, "I've got to get modern with my IT. "My boss is, you know, banging down my doors saying "We need to go cloud-native. "we've got to get modern applications." But we're running old school IT. Dominik, what do I do? Give me some advice. What's the playbook? What's your--what would you tell me? >> A playbook is again actually fairly hard because on the one side, we are actually not very far into this journey. So, it is not necessarily that there is a lot of chapters in this playbook to choose from. And the other one is, you have to give your IT department the possibility to actually re-architect the entire system. Of course, this is a step by step journey, and you cannot do this overnight. But if you wanted to arrive at a truly cloud-native destination, you actually have to walk the entire cloud-native journey. >> Talk about the intersection between design and development. Cause this, again if everything is flipped upside down where applications are in charge, UX and UI are important. UX, meaning thinking about the user experience engineering is super critical to get that done upfront, just like security. If security is being done on the front end baked into everything, doesn't UX have to be baked into everything? If that's the case, that's again a dynamic. So what's your take on that development and design intersection. >> Remember 15 years ago? It was like when do we bring in a UX designer? >> At the end of the project. (laughs) >> At the absolute end of the project, exactly. So we have it ready, and then we have only one demand, make it pretty, alright. So, obviously, that didn't work great. >> Well, I mean that made sense in with in the web, the web was very limited at the time, HTML and you had some interactive base interactive features, so it was a limited tool set then. >> At that time, it did work, but it was still not ideal. >> Yes, and I agree. >> Right? But now we actually--we need to flip. We need to flip the playbook there on its head. And I would argue that as an application developer my boss, so to say, the one who is giving me the requirements, are the UX engineers right now. So, the UX engineers are the ones, alright, that determine the functional requirements of my application. Now, as a application engineer, I still determine A, security and B, also the non-functional requirements of my application. And once again, we come to reliability or we come to scalability and reliability by construction. So, we also need to start working hand in hand together. So, UX and UX design, or design and development, looking at design and development, you see there is somewhat of a misalignment to begin with. UX design is responsible for building the right thing, and development is responsible for building the thing right. Okay. So in that case we are almost orthogonal on our way, right. And in the cloud-native world, actually forces us together. And as a simple example, if you look at one web page now, that may actually be served by multiple microservices. So, given the possibility of partial failure, alright, will the page come up, or will the page not come up? It's actually not a binary condition or a binary decision anymore, right. Parts of the page may be up. Parts of the page may be down. Is that critical? Is the page still viable, or is it not? That is for the UX designer to decide, and I am here to help them. >> So how's the balance get aligned? How do you realign that you're saying bring in UX to lead the application development then to the application developer then to the development team? >> It actually has to be very short feedback cycle. So, I personally argue for designers and developers going along that journey together so there shall not be a hand off. Once there is an actual hand off, you already lost. >> So cloud-native. We're bringing everything together. UX, the front end. Applications taking control. Infrastructure is code. This paradigm's significant. This is here to stay for the next generation or two at least. >> Yes, this paradigm actually does change how we approach software engineering at large. >> Alright, we're going to dig into more of it. There's plenty more to talk about. We've got CUBEcon coming up in San Diego, STO, service meshes, state flow applications, a lot more stuff to talk about. Dominik, thanks for having this conversation demystifying cloud-native, here with Dominik Tornow, Principal Engineer at Cisco, Office of the CTO. I'm John Furrier, theCUBE. Thanks for watching. (energetic music)

>> Live from Barcelona, Spain it's theCUBE. Covering KubeCon + CloudNativeCon Europe 2019. Brought to you by Red Hat, the Cloud Native Computing Foundation and ecosystem partners. >> Welcome back to theCUBE here in Barcelona, Spain at the Fira, it's KubeCon + CloudNativeCon 2019. I'm Stu Miniman and my co-hosts for two days of live wall-to-wall coverage is Corey Quinn. Joining us back, we have two CUBE alums, Liz Rice, right to my right here who is a Technology Evangelist with Aqua security. Liz, thank you so much welcome back. >> Pleasure to be here. >> And Jeff Brewer, Vice President and Chief Architect, Small Business & Self-Employed Group, of Intuit. A CUBE alum since a few hours ago this morning. >> Yes, yes, thank you. >> Jeff, welcome back. >> Thank you. >> So, we've got you back with a different hat. Everybody in our industry can definitely recognize we wear lots of different hats we have lots of jobs thrown at us. Both of you are in the Technical Oversight Committee and Liz is not only a member but also the Chairperson, President. (people laughing) >> President is definitely a promotion. But, yeah, I'm Chair of the committee. >> Maybe, as it's known, the TOC. Liz, before we get there, your shirt says +1 binding. You have to explain for us and did not get a preview before the interview, so we'll see where this goes. >> It's one of the perks of being on the TOC. When we have something that comes to a vote we want to get input from the community so we ask anyone in the community to vote. But unless you're a member of the TOC your vote is non-binding. As a member of the committee, we have binding votes. And the traditional thing you write on the voting email is +1 binding. So, it's a nice surprise to get a t-shirt when I joined the TOC. >> Very nice. Can you just give us, our audience, that might not be familiar with the TOC, give us some of the key things about it. >> It's the Technical Oversight Committee for the CNCF. We are, really, the technical curation of the projects that come in to the CNCF. Which projects will get support and at what level because we have the sandbox experimentation stage then incubation and then finally graduation for the really established and kind of, de-risked projects. So, we're really evaluating the projects and kind of making a decision collaboratively on which ones we want the CNCF to support. >> All right. So Jeff, we had a great conversation with you about Intuit's cloud journey. Tell us how you got involved in the TOC. We always love the end users, not just using but participating in and helping to give some governance over what the community is doing. >> Yeah, so, about a year and a half ago we made a decision to acquire a small company called Applatix. Who was, actually, already in the end user community. And also contributors as well. Through that acquisition, I was part of that acquisition, I led that acquisition from the Intuit side and really got excited about the Kubernetes and the KubeCon story overall. Through the Kubernetes experts, I met them at a KubeCon and they introduced me to a whole lot more of the community. Just through some overall partnerships with AWS and also spending a lot of time with end-users that's how I really got to know the community a little bit. And then, was voted onto the CNCF as an end user representative in January. >> Wonderful. As far as you're concerned, as you go through this, do you find it challenging at times to separate your roles professionally from working for a large company, to whom many things matter incredibly. Again, as mentioned earlier, I am one of your customers. I care very much about technical excellence, coming out of Intuit, versus your involvement with the larger project. >> Yeah, so like most people in technology companies I'm extremely busy and I would love to spend, I would love to clone myself and spend more (laughing) more time. >> Everybody wants to submit a client project to the TOC we will prioritize that one. >> Exactly, exactly. >> The way I really balance it is that I make an explicit time carve out for those two activities. And most importantly, I attend the meetings. The TOC meetings that we have, those are extremely important. We get a lot of project reviews in those meetings. Liz chairs those meetings. That's where I always make sure that my schedule is cleared for that. >> Taking it, I guess, one step further. Do you find it challenging at all to separate out, in fact, when you're making decisions and making votes, for example, that are presumably binding, +1 binding as we've learned now, is the terminology. Do you find that you are often pulled between trying to advocate for your company and advocating for the community or are they invariably aligned in your mind? >> I mean, my job's the easiest because I come from an end user. So what I use and what I consume is likely what the community at large. There might be some niches and stuff like that. But I usually don't have that conflict. I don't know, as more of a vendor, you might have more of a conflict. >> It's something that I have be conscious of. I just try to mentally separate. I have a role with a company that pays my salary but when I'm doing open-source things if I feel conflicted about. This hasn't really come up yet, but if I do feel that there's some kind of conflict of interest I will always recuse myself. Actually, in my previous role, as the Co-Chair for the Program Committee for the KubeCon and CloudNativeCon Conference, on a couple of occasions we had competitors submit, and I would always just step back from those. Because it's the right thing to do. >> All right. So Liz, there's quite a few projects now, under the umbrella of CNCF. If I've go it right, it was like, 38 different ones. When Brian went on the stage this morning, 16 in the sandbox, 16 incubating and six have graduated now. How do you manage that? You know, there's some in the community they're like, oh my gosh, reminds us of like, big tent, from some initiatives. Some other things here, how much is too much? How do you balance that and what's the input of the TOC? >> Yeah, so one of the things that we're doing with the TOC is we've just established a thing called the SIGs, the special interest groups. Very much following the same model of Kubernetes SIGs. But the idea here is that we can, kind of formalize getting experts in the community to help us with particular kind of areas. So, we've already got a storage and security SIG set up. We expect there will be probably four to six more coming on board during the year. And that helps us with things like the project reviews and the due diligence to just be able to say, we would really appreciate some help. Those groups are also really enthusiastic about kind of sharing knowledge in the form of things like white papers. I think it will be really important for end-users to be able to navigate their way around these projects. Quite often there is more than one solution for a particular thing. And being able to, in a non-vendor way, in a neutral way, express why project X is good in one circumstance and project Y would be better in a different environment. There's work to be done there and I'm hoping to see that come out. >> This is one of my passions as the end user representative, is that trail map or that road map. That's one of the reasons why we really have invested at Intuit, in the Kubernetes technology and the Cloud Native technology. We didn't just roll them out as is. We actually curate them and create, really, a paved road for our developers to navigate that space. >> Yeah, and as we heard from your story it's not always, well, if there's some overlap you use SDO and Hellman. >> Yeah. >> That there's a fit for both of those in your environment, right. >> Yeah. >> From a, I guess, an end user perspective is there a waiting difference between someone like Intuit and someone like Twitter for pets, where there's a slight revenue scale, a slight revenue difference, like scale difference, like everything difference. >> Yes. >> Certainly, there is. I think that, but that's one of the beautiful things about the Cloud Native technologies. You can consume what you need and what you want, right. It's not one size fits all. A lot of people talk about, oh, there's a paradox of choice, there's so many projects, right. Actually, that's a benefit. Really, all you need is that road map to navigate your way through that, rather than just adopting a paved road that might not work for everybody. >> It almost feels, to some extent, almost like the AWS Service Catalog. Whenever you wind up looking at all the things they offer. It feels like going out to eat at the Cheesecake Factory. Where there is 80 pages of menu to flip through with some advertisements, great. And reminding yourself, at time, that they are not Pokemon, you do not need to catch them all. It's, sometimes, a necessary step, as you start to contextualize this. >> That's one of the great things about having over 80 members in the end user is. You can find a buddy, you can find a company like you. Talk to them, get connected with them and figure out what they're doing and learn from them. The community is broad enough to be able to do that. >> All right, so Liz, let's talk about security. >> Okay. (people laughing) >> You said there's a SIG that started up. Where are we, how are things going and you can you share about where we're going in the near future? >> The SIG came together from a group of people who really wanted to make it easier for end-users to roll out their Cloud Native stacks in a secure fashion. We don't always, as a community, speak the same language about security, we don't always have the most secure settings by default. They really came together around this common interest of just making it easier for people to secure. I think a big part of that will be looking at how the different projects, are they applying best practices from a security perspective? Is there more they should do to document how to operate their particular project more securely? I think that whole initiative and that group of people who've come together for SIG security, I'm so impressed and so pleased that they have come together with that enthusiasm to help on that front. >> Any commentary on what you're seeing in this space? >> Yeah, so as an almost, a fintech company, with a lot of fintech and, you know, we're not quite a bank, but we have a lot of the same security and compliance things. That SIG is so, so important to us. And having a roadmap. I found a education is really, really a big part of it of the security experts, right. Because this is somewhat newer technology. Even though it's been in use at Google for a long time the regulator's, the compliance people, don't totally understand it, right. So you have to have a way to explain to them what's going on. So things like, open policy agent, something that we've adopted, helps us explain what's going on in our system. Once they get it, they're like, this is awesome and our end users can now, really, our end users, meaning the people that use QuickBooks and TurboTax can really trust that we have those guardrails in place. >> At Aqua, it's a huge concern from a lot of our customers. Many of whom, coming from that kind of finance industry. That they're coming to us and saying, well, how can I be PCI compliant or GDPR. How do I manage these requirements with my container based stack, with my Cloud Native stack. That's why there is this huge ecosystem quite a lot of effort around security, compliance, policy. >> It feels very much like it's two problems rolled into one. First, how do you make sure that data is secure in these things? Secondly, how do you effectively and responsibly communicate that to a regulator, who expects to be taken on a tour of a data center when they show up on site? (people laughing) I checked, they won't let you. >> There are definitely two sets of security people in my experience. There are a set of people who care about how will I get attacked. How will breaches happen. And there are other people who go, I have a checklist and I need to check the boxes in the checklist, tell me how. Sometimes those two things overlap, but not always. >> All right, Liz, lot of updates, as always. Jeff, I really appreciate your commentary there. Well, there's the paradox of choice but we have a lot of customers out there and therefore we do. (people chuckling) Any highlights you want to share with our audience? >> I think one thing that happens every year is we see more. Well, we saw Kubernetes graduate, I think, early last year, end of the previous year. Now we've got six projects into graduation. From my perspective, that says something about how mature this whole set of projects, this whole platform is becoming. Because graduation is a pretty high bar. Not least in terms of the number of end users that have to be using it in production. This is solid technology. >> Yeah, any highlights from you? >> I think, like we might have touched on a little bit this morning. But I think that usually the technologies that where you're facing the big problems is pretty obvious which one to use, right. Like serverless, you're going to go look at something like Knative or whatnot. Functions as a service. There's some open fast projects, whatnot, like that. SDO services mesh is another one where it's getting mature and it's getting to the point where you can have these ubiquitous service meshes throughout it. So, those are the areas that we're most looking at right now. >> Great, all right. Well, Liz and Jeff, thank you so much for joining us. Thanks for all the work you do on the Oversight Committee and appreciate you sharing the updates with our community. >> Thank you for having us. >> Thank you. >> For Cory Quinn, I'm Stu Miniman. We'll be back more, with theCUBE here at KubeCon + CloudNativeCon 2019. Thanks for watching. (upbeat music)

>> Live from Barcelona Spain it's theCUBE covering KubeCon CloudNativeCon Europe 2019. Brought to you by Red Hat. >> Live from Barcelona Spain it's theCUBE covering KubeCon CloudNativeCon Europe 2019. Brought to you by Red Hat. the Cloud Native Computing Foundation and ecosystem partners. >> Hola Barcelona I'm Stu Miniman and my guest host for this week is the one and only Corey Quinn, and you're watching theCUBE the leader in live tech coverage, actually the fourth year we've been doing the KubeCon and CloudNativeCon. This is KubeCon CloudNativeCon Barcelona 2019. We've got two days of wall to wall live coverage. Last year we were in Copenhagen it was outside a little bit windy and we had this lovely silk above us. This time we are inside at the Fira. We've got some lovely Cube branding. The store with all the t-shirts and the little plushies of Fippy and all the animals are right down the row for us, and there is 7,700 people here. So I have been, I did the Austin show in 2017 did the Seattle show last year 2018. We had done the Portland show in 2016, so it's my third time doing one of these, but Corey it is your first time at one of these shows. Wait this isn't an AWF show, so what are you doing here? >> I'm still trying to figure that out myself when people invite me to go somewhere "Do you know anything about insert topic here?" absolutely, smile and bluff your way through. Eventually someone might call you on it, but that's tomorrow's problem not quite today's. >> Yeah I have this general rule of thumb the less I know about something the more I overdress to overcompensate it. Oh so here's the guy in the three piece suit. >> My primary skill is wearing a suit everything else is just edging details. >> Alright, so let's set the stage for our audience here Corey. As I've said we've got the Foundation, we've got a lot of the big members, we've got some of the project people, but I'm really excited we actually have some excellent users here, because it is five years now since Kubernetes came onto the scene of course built off of Borg from Google, and as Dan Conn said in the opening key note, he actually gave a nice historical lesson. The term he used is simultaneous invention and basically those things that, you know, there are times where we argue, who created the light bulb first, or who did this and this? Because there were multiple times out there and he said look there were more than a dozen projects out there. >> Many of them open source or a little bit open as to these things like container orchestration, but it is Kubernetes that is the defacto standard today, and it's why so many people show up for this show, >> and there's such a large ecosystem around it. So you live in the Cloud world you know what's your general view on CloudNative and Kubernetes and this whole kind of space? >> Well going back to something you said a minute or two ago. I think there's something very strong to be said about this being defined by it's users. I've never yet seen a successful paradigm takeoff in the world of technology that was vendor defined. It's at some point you wind up with these companies doing the digital equivalent of here we've crafted you this amazingly precise wrench, and you hand it to a user and the first thing they say is wow it's kind of a crappy hammer, but it's at least good for a first attempt. Tools are going to be used as users want to use them and they define what the patterns look like. >> Yeah so I'll give you the counter point there because we understand if we ask users what they wanted they wanted better buggy whips so we can go faster. To compare and contrast we had done a few years ago was this openstack was user driven and it came out of NASA, and if it was good enough for the rocket scientist, it should be something we that can learn on, and Rackspace had done good and gave it to the open source community, and stepped back and let people use it. First of all openstack it's not dead it's being used in the Telco world it's being used outside of North America quite a bit, but we saw the kind of boom and bust of that. >> We are a long way passed the heyday. >> The vendor ecosystem of openstack was oh it's an alternative to AWS, and maybe some way to get off the VMY licensing, and I've actually said it's funny if you listen to what happens in this ecosystem. Well, giving people the flexibility not to be totally locked in to AWS, and oh it's built on Linux and therefore I might not want to have licensing from certain vendors. Still echos from previously but it is very different. >> Very much so, and I will say the world has changed. >> I was very involved in Eucalyptus which was a bit of a different take on the idea, or the promise of what openstack was going to be What if you had Cloud API's in your own data center in 2012 that seemed like a viable concern. The world we live in today of public cloud first for a lot of shops was by no means assured. >> Yeah, Martin Meikos, Cube alum by the way, fantastic leader still heavily involved in open source. >> Very much so >> One of those things I think he was a little bit ahead of his time on these. So Corey, one of the reasons, why are you here? You are here because I pulled you here, and we do pay you to be here as a host. You're not here for goodwill and that. Your customers are all users and tend to be decent sized users and they say Corey helps people with their Amazon bills no that's the AWS bills not the I have a pile of boxes of smiley faces on there, oh my God what did I do around Christmas time. >> Exactly >> So the discussion at the show is this whole hybrid and multi cloud world when I talk to users they don't use those words. Cloud strategy, sure, my pile of applications, and how I'm updating some of them, and keeping some of them running, and working with that application portfolio and my data. All hugely important but what do you hear from users, and where does the things like cloud and multi cloud fit into their world? >> There are two basic archetypes of user that I tend to deal with. Because I deal with, as you mentioned, with predominately large customers >> you have the born in the cloud types who have more or less a single application. Picture a startup that hits meteoric growth and now is approaching or is in the IPO stage. They have a single application. They're generally all in on one provider, and the idea of going multi cloud is for auxiliary things. If we take a step back, for example, they're saying things like oh PagerDuty is a service that's not run by one of our major public cloud providers. There are a bunch of SaaS applications like that that factor in, but their infrastructure is >> predominately going to be based in one environment. The other large type of customer you'll tend to see is one of those multinational very divisional organizations where they have a long legacy of being very data center first because historically that was kind of the only option. And you'll start to see a bunch of different popup cloud providers inside those environments, but usually they stop at the line of business boundary or very occasionally on a per workload basis. I'm not seeing people say, >> well we're going to build this one application workload, and we want to be able to put that on Oracle cloud, and Azure and GCP and AWS, and this thing that my cousin runs out of the Ozarks. No one wants to do that in the traditional sense because as soon as you go down that path you are constrained to whatever the lowest common denominator across all those things are, and my cousins data center in the Ozarks doesn't have a lot of frills. So you wind up trying to be able to deploy anywhere, but by doing that you are giving up any higher level offering. You are slowing yourself down. >> Yeah, the thing we've always been worried about is back in the day when you talk about multi vendor do we go by the standard, and then go to least common denominator and what has worked it's way through the environment? That's what the customers want. I want today if I'm the user, agility is really one of the things that seem to be top of mind. What IT needs to do is respond to the speed of what the business needs and a CloudNative environment that I look at is it has to be that lever to be able to help me deliver on the next thing, or change the thing, or update my thing to get that working. It was, so disclaimer Red Hat is our headline sponsor here we thank them for our presence, but actually it's a great conversation with open shift customers, and they didn't talk about open shift to open shift to open shift. They talk about their digital transformation. They talk about their data. They talk about the cool new things that they are able to do, and it was that platform happened to be built on Kubernetes. That was the lever to help them do this at the Google show where you were at. That was the same conversation we had whether it is in GCP or whether it was in my own data center. >> You know yes we can do it with containers and everything like that. It was that lever to be able to help me modernize and run new apps and do it faster than I would've done it in the past. So it's that kind of progression that is interesting for me to hear, and just there is not, there is this tendency now to be like oh look everybody is working together and it's wonderful open source ecosystem. It's like well look the world today is definitely coopetition. Yes you need to be up on stage and if a customer says, I need to work with vendors A, B, C, and D. A, B, C, and D, you better work with that or they will go and find an alternative, because there are alternatives out there. >> (Corey) Absolutely, and when a company embarks on a digital transformation and starts moving into public cloud, there are two reasons they are doing that. The first is for cost savings in which case (laughs), let's talk, and the other is for capability storing, and you're not going to realize cost savings for a lot longer than you think you will. In any case you are not going realize capability story if all you view public cloud is being, is another place to run your VAMS or now your containers. >> Yeah, so thank you, Corey your title in your day job You're a Cloud economist. >> I am, two words that no one can define. So no one calls me on it. >> Kubernetes it's magical and free right >> That's what everyone tells me. It feels like right now we are sort of peak heighth as far as Kubernetes goes, and increasingly, whenever you see a technology that has gotten this level of adoption. We saw it with openstack, we've seen it with cloud, we've seen it with a bunch of things. We are starting to see it with Serverless as well. Where, what problem are you trying to solve? I'm not going to listen to the answer, today that answer is Kubernetes, and it seems like everyone's first project is their own resume. Great, there has to be a value proposition, there has to be a story for it, >> and I'm not suggesting that there isn't, but I think that it is being used as sort of an upscale snake oil in some cases or serpen grease as we like to call it in some context. >> Yeah, and that's one of our jobs here is to help extract the sigma from the noise. We've got some good customers. We're going into the environment. One of the things I try to do in the open keynote is find that theme. Couple of years, for a couple of shows >> it's been service mesh is the new hotness. We're talking about Istio, we're talking about Helm, We're talking about all these all these environments that say okay how do I pull together all the pieces of the application, >> and manage that together? Because there's just, you know, moving up the stack, and getting closer to that application. We'll talk about Serverless in one of the other segments later this week I'm sure because you know there's the, okay here Knative can help bridge that gap, but is that what I need? We talk a lot about Kubernetes is how much does the public cloud versus in my data center, and some of the guys they talk to, Serverless is in the public cloud. We'll call it functions of the service if you put it in your own data center, because while yes there are servers everywhere. If you actually manage those racks and everything like that it probably doesn't make sense to call it Serverless. We try not to get into too many semantics arguments here on theCUBE. >> You can generally tend to run arbitrary code anywhere the premise of Serverless to my mind. >> Is more about the event model, and you don't get that on VRAM in the same way that you do in a large public cloud provider, and whether that is the right thing or not, I'm not prepared to say, but it's important for that to be understood as you are going down that path. >> So Corey, any themes that jumped out for you, or things that you want to poke at, at the show, for me, Kubernetes has really kind of crossed that Chasm, and we do have large crowds. You can see the throngs of people behind us, and users that have great stories to tell, and CNCF itself, you know has a lot of projects out there, we're trying to make some sense of all those pieces. There's six now that have graduated, and FluentD is the most recent, but a lot of interesting things from the sandbox, through that kind of incubating phase there, and we're going to dig into some of the pieces there. Some of them build on top of Kubernetes, some of them are just part of this whole Cloud Native Ecosystem, and therefore related but don't necessarily need it, and can play in all these various worlds. >> What about you? >> For me I want to dig a little bit more into the idea of multi cloud. I have been making a bit of a stink for the past year. With the talk called the myth of multi cloud. Where it's not something I generally advise as a best practice, and I'm holding that fairly well, but what I want to do is I want to have conversations with people who are pursuing multi cloud strategies and figure out first, are they in fact pursuing the same thing, so we're defining out terms and talking on the same page, and secondly I want to get a little more context, and insight into why they are doing that, and what that looks like for them. Is it they want to be able to run different workloads in different places? Great that's fair, the same workload run everywhere, on the lowest common denominator. Well lets scratch below the surface a bit, and find out why that is. >> Yeah, and Corey you're spot on, and no surprise because you talk to users on this. From our research side on our team, we really say multi cloud or hybrid cloud. Hybrid cloud means you've got your own data centers, as opposed to multi cloud could be any of them. There's a little bit of a Venn Diagram you could do between that. >> But I am prepared to be wrong as well. I'm a company of two people. I don't have a research department, that's called the spare time I get >> when I can't sleep at night. So I don't have data, I have anecadata. I can talk about individual use cases, but then I'm telling individual company stories that I'm generally not authorized to tell. So it's more a question now of starting to speak to a broader base. >> So just to finish on the thought from out team is everything from I have all of these pieces, and they're really not connected, and I'm just trying to get my arms around through some of the solutions. Like in the AWS world we're looking at the VMware on AWS, and the outpost type of solution. That pullout or what Azure does with Azure stack, and the like, or even company like IBM and Oracle, where they have a stack that can be both >> in the public cloud and the private cloud. Those kind of fully integrated pieces versus the right now I'm just putting applications in certain areas, and then how do I manage data protection, how do I manage security across all these environments. It is a heterogeneous mess that we had, and I spent a lot of my career trying to help us break down those silos, get away from the cylinders of excellence as we called them, and we worked more traditionalist. So how much are we fighting that? I will just tell you that most of the people we're going to have on theCUBE, probably aren't going to want to get into that. They'll be happy to talk about their piece, and how they work with this broad wonderful ecosystem, but we can drill into where Kubernetes fits. We've got the five year anniversary of Kubernetes. We'll be talking to some of the people that helped create this technology, and lots of the various pieces. So with that, Corey, want to give you the final take here, before we talk about the stickers, and some of the rest. >> Oh absolutely, I think it's a fascinating show. I think that they're the right people who are attending. To give valuable perspective that, quite frankly, you're not going to get almost anywhere else. It's just a fascinating blend of people from large companies, small companies, giant vendors, and of course the middleware types, who are trying to effectively stand between in many cases, customers and the raw vendors, for a variety of very good reasons. Partner strategies are important. I'm very curious to see what that becomes, and how that tends to unfold in the next two days. >> Okay, so theCUBE by the way, we're not only a broadcast, but we are part of the community. We understand this network, and that is why Corey and I, you know, we come with stickers. So we've got these lovely sticker and partnership with Women Who Go, that made this logo for us for the Seattle show, and I have a few left, so if you come on by. Corey has his platypus, last week in AWS. So come on by where we are, you get some stickers, and of course, hit us up on Twitter if you have any questions. We're always looking for the community, and the network to help us with the data, and help us pull everything apart. So for Corey Quinn, I'm Stu Miniman, two days of live wall to wall coverage >> will continue very soon, and thank you as always for watching theCUBE. (Fading Electronic Music)

>> Voiceover: Live from Boston, Massachusetts, it's the CUBE. Covering your Red Hat Summit 2019. Brought to you by Red Hat. >> And welcome back to our coverage here on the CUBE Red Hat Summit 2019. We're at the BCEC in Beantown, Boston, Massachusetts playing host this week to some 9000 strong attendees, pack keynotes. Just a great three days of programming here and educational sessions. Stu Miniman and I'm John Walls. We're joined by Mike Piech, who's the VP and general manager of Middleware at Red Hat. Mike, good to see you today. >> Great to be back. >> And Mark Little, VP of engineering Middleware at Red Hat. Mark, Good to see you as well, sir. >> You too. >> Yeah. First of, let's just talk about your ideas at the show here. Been here for a few days. As we've seen on the keynote stage, wide variety of first off, announcements and great case studies, great educational sessions. But your impressions of what's going on and some of the announcements we've heard about this week. >> Well, sure. I mean definitely some very big announcements with RHEL 8 and OpenShift 4. So as Middleware we're a little bit more in sort of gorilla mode here while some of the bigger announcements take a lot of the limelight. But nevertheless those announcements and the advances that they represent are very important for us as Middleware. Particularly OpenShift 4 as sort of the next layer up from OpenShift which the developers sort of touch and feel and live and breathe on a daily basis. We are the immediate beneficiaries of much of the advances in OpenShift and so that's something that, we as the Middleware guys sort of make real for the enterprise application developer. >> I'd say, probably for me, building on that in a way, one of the biggest announcements, one of the biggest surprises is gotta be the first keynote where we had Satya from Microsoft on stage with Jim announcing the collaboration that we're doing. I never believed that would ever happen and that's, that's fantastic. Has a benefit for Middleware as well but just for Red Hat as a whole. Who would've thought it? >> John: Who would have thought it, right? Yeah, we actually just had Marco Bill-Peter on and he was talking about, he's like "Look, we've actually had some of our support people up in Redmond now for a couple of years." And we had Chris Wright on earlier and he says "You know, sometimes we got to these shows and you get the big bang announcement. It's like, well, really we're working incrementally along the way and open source you can watch it. Sure sometimes you get the new chipset or there's a new this or that. But you know, it's very very small things." So in the spirit of that, maybe, you know, give us the updates since last time we got together. What's happening in the Middleware space as you said. If we build up the stack, you know, we got RHEL 8, we got OpenShift 4 and you're sitting on top. >> Yeah. Well one aspect that's an event like this makes clear in almost a reverse sort of way. We put a lot of effort particularly in Mark's team in getting to a much more frequent and more incremental release cycle and style, right. So getting away from sort of big bang releases every year, couple of years, to a much more agile incremental again sort of regime of rolling out functionality. Now, one of the downsides of that is that you don't have these big grand product announcements to make a big deal about in the same way as RHEL just did with 8 for example. So we need to rethink how we sort of (Laughs) >> absence the sort of big .0 releases, you know how we sort of batch up interesting news and roll it out at a large event like this. Now one of the things that we have been working on is our application environment narrative. Right now, the whole idea of the story here is that many people talk about Cloud-Native and about having lot's of different capabilities and services in a cloud environment. And as we've sort of gone through the, particularly the last year or so, it's really become apparent from what our customers tell us and from what we really see as the opportunities in the cloud-native world. The value that we bring is engineering all these pieces together, right? So that it's not simply a list of these disparate, disconnected, independent services but rather Middleware in the world of cloud native re-imagined. It is capabilities that when engineered together in the right way they make for this comprehensive, unified, cohesive environment within which our customers can develop applications and run those applications. And for the developer, you get developer productivity and then at runtime, you're getting operational reliability. So there really is a sort of a dual-sided value proposition there. And this notion of Middleware engineered together for the cloud is what the application environment idea is all about. >> Yeah. I'd add kinda one of the things that ties into that which has been big for us at least at summit this year is an effort that we kicked off or we announced two months ago called Quakers and as you all know a lot of what we do within Middleware, within Red Hat is based on Java and Java is still the dominant language in the enterprise but it's been around for 20 years. It developed in a pre-cloud era and that made lots of assumptions on the way in which the Java language and the JVM on which it runs would develop which aren't necessarily that conducive for running, in a cloud environment, a hybrid cloud environment and certainly public cloud environment based on Linux containers and Kubernetes. So, we've been working for a number of years in the upstream open JDK community to try and make Java much more cloud-native itself. And Quakers kind of builds on that. It essentially is what we call a kub-native approach where we optimize all of the Middleware stack upfront to work really really well in Kubernetes and specifically on OpenShift. And it's all Java though, that's the important thing. And now if people look into this they'll find that we're showing performance figures and memory utilization that is on a per with some of the newer languages like Go for instance, very very fast. Typically your boot time has gone from seconds to tens of milliseconds. And people who have seen it demonstrated have literally been blown away cause it allows them to leverage the skills that they've had invested in their employees to learn Java and move to the cloud without telling them "You guys are gonna have to learn a completely new language and start from scratch" >> All right, so Mark, if I get it right cause we've been at the Kubernetes show for a bunch of years but this is, you're looking at kinda the application side of what's happening in those Kubernetes environment >> Mark: Yeah. So many times we've talked about the platforms and the infrastructure down but it's the the art piece on top. Super important. I know down the DevZone people were buzzing around all the Quaker stuff. What else for people that are you know, looking at that kinda cloud-native containerization space? What other areas that they should be looking at when it comes to your space? >> Well, again, tying into the up environment thing, hopefully, you know, you'll have heard of knative and Istio. So knative is, to put it in a quick sentence is essentially an enabler for serverless if you like. It's where we're spinning containers really really quickly based on events. But really any serverless platform lives and dies based on the services in which your business logic can then rely upon. Do I have a messaging service there? Do I have a transaction service or a database service? So, we've been working with, with Google on knative and with Microsoft on knative to ensure that we have a really good story in OpenShift but tying it into our Middleware suite as well. So, many of our Middleware products are now knative enabled if you like. The second thing is, as I mentioned, Istio which is a sidecar approach. I won't go into details on that but again Istio the aim behind that is to remove from the application developer some of the non-functional business logic that they had to put in there like "How do I use a messaging service? How do I secure this endpoint and push it down the infrastructure?" So the security servers, the messaging servers, the cashing servers et cetera. They move out of the business logic and they move into Istio. But from our point of view, it's our security servers that we've been working on for years, it's our transactional servers that we've been working on for years. So, these are bullet-proof implementations that we have just made more cloud-native by embedding them in a way in Istio and like I said, enabling them with knative. >> I think we'd mentioned that Chris Wright was on earlier and one of the things he talked about was, this new data-eccentric focus and how, that's at the core so much of what enterprise is doing these days. The fact that whenever speed is distributed, they are and you've got so many data inputs come in from, so to a unified user trying to get their data the way they wanna see it. You might want it for a totally other reason, right? I'm just curious, how does that influence or how has that influenced your work in terms of making sure that transport goes smoothly? Because you do have so much more to work with in a much more complex environment for multiple uses that are unique, right? >> (Mike) Yeah. >> It's not all the same. >> Huge, huge impact for sure. The whole idea of decomposing an application into a much larger number of much smaller pieces than was done in the past has many benefits probably one of the most significant being the ability to make small changes, small incremental changes and afford a much more trial and error approach to innovation versus more macro-level planning waterfall as they call it. But one of the implications of that is now you have a large number of entities. Whether they be big or small, there's a large number of them running within the estate. And there's the orchestration of them and the interconnection of them for sure but it's a n-squared relationship, right. The more these entities you have, the more potential connections between each of them you have to somehow structure and manage and ensure are being done securely and so on. So that has really driven the need for new ways of tying things together, new ways essentially of integration. It has definitely amplified the need for disciplines, EPI management for example. It has driven a lot of increase demand for an event-driven approach where you're streaming in realtime and distributing events to many receivers and dealing with things asynchronously and not depending on round-trip times for everything to be consistent and so on. So, there's just a myriad of implications there that are very detailed technical-level drive some of the things that we're doing now. >> Yeah, I'll just add that in terms of data itself, you've probably heard this a number of times, data is king. Everything we do is based on data in one way or another, So we as Red Hat as a whole and Middleware specifically, we've had a very strong data strategy for a long time. Just as you've got myriad types of data, you can't assume that one way of storing that data is gonna be right for every type of data that you've got. So, we've worked through the integration efforts on ensuring that no sequel data stores, relational data stores^, in-memory data caching and even the messaging services as a whole is a way of sto^ring data in transit, that allows you to, in some ways it allows you to actually look at it in an event-driven way and make intelligent decisions. So that's a key part of what anybody should do if they are in the enterprise space. That's certainly what we're doing because at the end of the day people are building these apps to use that data. >> Well, gentlemen, I know you have another engagement. We're gonna cut you loose but I do wanna say you're the first guests to get applause. (guests laugh) >> From across all the way there. People at home can't hear but, so congratulations. You've been well received already. >> I think they're clearly tuned in to the renaissance of the job in here. >> Yes. >> Thank you both. >> Thanks for the time. >> Mark: Thanks so much. >> We appreciate that. Back with more, we are watching a Red Hat summer 2019 coverage live on the CUBE. (Upbeat music)

>> Narrator: Live from San Francisco, it's theCUBE, covering Google Cloud Next 19. Brought to you by Google Cloud and it's ecosystem partners. >> Hello and welcome back to theCUBE's live coverage, here in San Francisco, the Moscone Center. This is theCUBE's live coverage of Google Next 19, Google Cloud computing conference. I'm John Furrier, Dave Vellante my cohost. Stu Miniman's here as well, he'll be coming on doing interviews. Our next guests are the founder and CEO of SignalFx, Karthik Rau, and Leonid Ingolnik, EVP of engineering. SignalFx has been a great company, we've been following for many, many years. Pioneer in a lot of the monitoring and serviceability of applications, now prime time, the world has spun to their doorstep. Karthik, congratulations on your success. It's prime time for your business. >> Ya, thank you, John. >> John: Welcome back. >> Great to be on, we're on again. >> I'm glad that you're on because we talked six years ago about some of the trends, we saw early. We saw the containers, Docker movement, and also Kubernetes got massive growth. You had the visibility of what these services are going to look like, cloud web services, kind of the next level. It's kind of here right now. >> Yeah, absolutely, there are two things that we predicted would happen. One was that architectures would get a lot more distributed, elastic, and it would require a more low-latency monitoring system that could do realtime analytics. That was one of the key changes. And then the other thing that we predicted was that developers would get more involved in operations. Which is the whole DevOps movement. And now both of those are very much in the mainstream, so we're really excited to see these trends. >> And looking at the Google keynotes today, obviously we're starting to see the realization of true infrastructure as code, you're starting to see the beginning signals of, look at, we can actually program the infrastructure, and not even have to deal with it. This is key, and you guys have some hardcore news, so let's get that out of the way. You guys got some updates, let's get into the news, and then we can get into the conversation around what you guys are doing in the industry. >> So, today we're bringing three things to the conference, to boost customers and prospects, starting with announcing our support for cloud functions. Cloud functions are great technology that we're seeing adopted by retail. For spiky workloads, things where you have a flash sale and you need to understand what's happening, it may be lasting minutes, where our platform really shows off the best, which is the one second resolution data. Some of our flash sales we see from existing customers don't last a minute, right, so looking at this in a minute resolution of being able to react to this in a machine time rather than human time, is something that our customers now expect. The second thing we are focusing on is Istio, and Istio on GKE specifically. We're seeing service mesh adoption continuing to go both in new, modern application, as well as taking legacy workloads and unlocking the potential of taking those legacy workloads to the cloud. And with Istio, and specifically on Microservices APM, it's not just applicable to Microservices, we see a lot of our customers realizing a lot of value from tracing abilities that a service mesh like Istio provides, an ability to understand you topology and service interactions for free, out of the box, whether it's on-premise with Istio or on the Google environment. And then lastly, so we see customers and prospects adopt Kubernetes, we're also starting to see the next layer above Kubernetes coming in. And, with Knative, getting the support out of the box, whether it's the dashboard, the tracing of the metrics, and that, that's the third announcement we have today. We're fully integrated with Google's offerings, and we're able to monitor and provide you with some actionable content, just in a flick of a switch. >> So support of Knative out of the box. >> Leonid: Out of the box. >> Full SignalFx, with Knative on Google Cloud. >> That is correct. So those three things. >> Karthik, I wonder if you could give us some insight as to what's going on in the marketplace. A multicloud is obviously a tailwind to you, but multicloud, to date, hasn't really been a strategy, it's sort of been an outcome of multi vendor. So, is multicloud increasingly becoming a strategy for your customers, and what specific role are you playing there to facilitate that? >> Yeah, absolutely. I think particularly most of the larger enterprise accounts tend to have a multi vendor strategy, for almost every category, right? Including cloud, which typically is one of their largest spends. Typically what we see is people looking at certain classes or workloads, running on particular clouds, so it may be transactional systems running on AWS. A lot of their more traditional enterprise workloads that were running on Windows servers, potentially running on Azure, we see a lot of interest in data intensive sorts of analytics workloads, potentially running on GCP. And so I think larger companies tend to kind of look at it in terms of, what's the best platform for the use case that they have in mind. But in general, they are looking at multiple cloud vendors. >> So we heard some customers onstage today, talking about their strategy, I think Thomas asked one retail customer, how'd you decide what to put where? And essentially he said, well, it's either going to go into the cloud, lift and shift, we're going to refactor it, reprogram it essentially, or we're going to sunset it. What he didn't say is, we're going to leave some stuff on-prem. Which somewhat surprised me, 'cause of course, especially into financial services you're going to get a lot of stuff left on-prem. So what's your play, with regard to those various strategies, and for the legacy stuff, I know you're cloud native, that's your claim to fame, but can you help those legacy customers as well? Talk about that. >> Yes, absolutely. >> So I think, what we've seen is it's a given now, that organizations are going to move to cloud. It's a question of when, not if. And the cloud form factors are just, are fundamentally different, they're software-defined. Right, a traditional data center, you're monitoring network equipment, storage devices, you're monitoring disks and fan failures on individual servers. When you're running in a cloud, it's a software-defined infrastructure, and it's far more elastic. And so even if you're just lifting and shifting, how you think about monitoring and observing this new cloud infrastructure's fundamentally different. So we're there for the very first step of the journey for an organization, to get the visibility they need into the new architecture, and many times we're also helping them understand the before and after, so how do I compare my performance in my on-premise data center to what it looks like in the cloud? That's step one. Step two is, they start chipping away at those monoliths, or they have new initiatives, that are digital initiatives, that are running in Kubernetes, or container based architectures, microservices based architectures, and that is a fundamentally different world. How you observe and monitor, deploy, not just monitor, the entire supply chain of how you manage these systems is different. So there, they have to look at different solutions, and we're obviously one of the key players, helping them there. >> Leonid, we've been doing theCUBE now for a decade, and I think John, it was a decade ago we said, we made the statement that sampling is dead. So I love your approach, you're not just taking small samples to do your performance monitoring. What's the architecture that enables you to do that, could you talk about that a little bit? >> So I think the most interesting thing with more modern architectures, especially with microservices adoption, is the complexity of how the transaction flows through the system. And then, basically tossing the coin, like we used to be able to do, in previous generations, to capture some traces and get the data you need. Doesn't work anymore, because it's very tough to predict at the beginning of the trace where the transaction's going to go. We're taking a completely different approach on the market. We look at every single transaction, at scales, we have prospects that are talking at us about volumes of giga span in minutes, so one billion spans observed a minute, and with some of the interesting tech we've built, we are able to pick the interesting things. And the interesting things have a couple categories, transactions that occur infrequently, transactions that are maybe above P90, right, the slow ones, because when look about performance and the understanding of how the application performs, you really want to know what's slow, not what's normal. But you also have to capture enough of what's normal. So with some of our tech, we're still able to keep about 1% of transactions, but the right ones, and that's the biggest differentiator with what we put together for the APM product. >> One of the things I want to talk about with you guys is how you relate to some of Google's announcements. The key things, I'm oversimplifying now, but they got a server list kind of announcement, got Cloud Run environment things, the regions, which is global, and then obviously open source commitment. You mentioned functions, you mentioned Knative, obviously open source. You're seeing open source being much more of a production IT capability, so you guys obviously hit that with these solutions, so the question I have for you guys is, how hard is it for you guys to provide that real time monitoring, because Google needs to build an ecosystem, that's what they're not talking about, they didn't really talk about on stage, their ecosystem. So you guys are a natural fit into service mesh, which they showed onstage, Jennifer Lin showed a great demo. So Google has to build an ecosystem, you guys are clearly positioned, through your announcements, that you're deeply integrated with Google. Cisco announced and integration, obviously they have an integration, so integration seems to be the secret sauce, (laughs) with cloud, to play in this ecosystem. Could you guys elaborate on that dynamic, because it kind of changes the old formula for ecosystems? >> Yeah, it's very different, right? In the old days, you had proprietary systems, so the only way you could actually build an integration is, you had to get your product managers in a conference room with the vendor and get visibility in the roadmap, access to everything, and that's why there were, it just took a lot longer to get things done. I think what you're seeing with Google is, they've taken a very standards based approach to everything, right? So, whatever technologies that they're releasing, they're trying to build it as a standard, you can run it on any cloud. Instrumentation is a core part of their philosophy of any technologies that they're releasing, such that, you have a new platform, it has a metrics library, other standards based mechanisms to collect metrics, traces, events. What that does is it makes it easy for the ecosystem to just pick it up, right? Our belief has been, you know, in the old days monitoring was all about proprietary instrumentation and collection. Today it's all about analysis. So the fact that all of this is openly available, in open source or standards based mechanisms, is great for us, it's great for the customers, it's great for the ecosystem. >> That's their one-to-many way of building integration systems. >> And that's why you guys are supporting Knative, as an example. >> Yep. >> That's really kind of supporting the open source ecosystem, ties it to Google cloud. >> Yeah, I mean, we generally support, our customers are running in every single configuration (John laughing) and type of technology you can imagine, so it's our work philosophy to just be everywhere they are, and to support all of the tech that they might be running. But in general we're big supporters of open source, in that, you know, developers are now running most software. That's the world of web services and SaaS. And developers have a preference for understanding the stacks that they're running on, and being able to control it and so that is obviously why open source has just taken off the way it has. >> I think the other dynamic of embracing open-source and standards is it allows us to focus, not on the meetings with product managers and getting an insight into the roadmap, but on getting the standards based integrations deeply configured with some of, for example, content we provide out of the box for use to your own Google versus for use to your own premise or use to anywhere else. And that's where the differentiation and the value for the customer is, not in kind of getting together on the roadmap and figuring out what to build next. >> You guys should move fast to take advantage of the lift that they get. I'd love it if you guys could just take a minute each to explain SignalFx value proposition 'cause you guys I think are perfectly positioned now as this becomes infrastructure as code with cloud. When should a customer call you guys? When are guys needed? When do guys get called in? Where are you winning? Take a minute to explain when and where you guys fit into the customer environment. >> I would say as soon as a customer starts to leverage a cloud infrastructure, whether that's public cloud, private cloud, open shift, to open stack, pivotal cloud foundry, or a public cloud, how you monitor your infrastructure will be fundamentally different, and we can help you with that. And then along your journey, once you've moved to cloud and you start thinking about how do I build modern application architectures, modern web services, devops, then we are necessary. You cannot get to the cloud native stage where you're releasing software every week unless you have a monitoring system like SignalFx. >> Great, just great. I want to also get your pick your brain on some dynamic that I saw in the keynote, it might not be obvious to the folks that are in the mainstream, but Jennifer Lin gave a demo of taking a workload, and porting it over with a small script, no code modifications, running it on a container. >> Dave: The cloud vMotion >> Anthos migrate was the product but basically migrating workload into containers in the Kubernetes engine automatically with no re-writes, she said what you, where you want. So that kind of, I can see what she did there and that's very cool and that's a game changer that's infrastructureless code, but then she moves to a conversation around services meshes. 'Cause once you get these things on a containerized, inside the Kubernetes engine, you're kind of enabled for using service meshes. This is like the Holy Grail of microservices. This is a big growth area. Can you guys explain what this means, what does this service mesh mean, 'cause once these workloads start to be containerized you're going to see much more migration to this new model. Where does service mesh kick in and why is it important and what should people pay attention to? >> Well I would say one of the fundamental challenges of microservices is what people are calling more and more, observability, right. Because you have so many systems, like a single application or a single transaction, what is an application anymore? A single transaction can flow through dozens, hundreds, of individual microservices. So, and you're changing your applications all the time. So figuring out when you've introduced a problem very quickly is a big challenge. And so one of the big benefits service mesh brings is it provides automatic instrumentation of your applications and requests in a way that makes it very out of the box to get visibility across your entire environment. So that is step one, getting that visibility. The next step is then you obviously need to analyze this corpus of data and its massive, and that's where a solution like SignalFx comes in we can collect all this data and help you really T-signal for noise. Then the last step really is how do you take action on that data, how do you automate responses? Whether it's rolling back a canary release, or shifting a load balancing strategy so that if there's a bad node you stop sending traffic to that. All of that can be automated. And so what service mesh is doing is it's providing the sub street to allow you to really provide that closed loop automation, that infrastructure is code, you know that's the movement that everyone is really focusing on right now. It's a key technology to enable that. >> Tell me about the observability trends, because this has been a hot venture funded area. We hear trace, dynamic tracing, these are techniques, there's a variety of different mechanisms for observability. How does Kubernetes, and now service mesh's impact observability, where is the puck going to be, if you're going to skate to where the puck is, what's the state of the situation? >> Well I think what it does is it makes instrumentation a lot easier. So typically a challenge when you're running a old Java application from 10 years ago, getting visibility into the app, it's a monolith. You to get the full visibility and the full call stack, that's harder to collect. When you're in a microservices world with service mesh, you're getting that visibility automatically. And what becomes more important is understanding the east/west latencies across all these different microservices. So because instrumentation is so much easier with all these new technologies, what it means for monitoring is it really shifts the focus to who can make the most sense of this data, who can provide assistance to the operators to really help them pinpoint when there is a problem, what is the potential cause, and to triage it very quickly. So again, the whole value proposition is shifted to the analysis. >> So Leonid given that, what are your engineering priorities, maybe share a little road map if you could? >> Sure, so if you think about what we just talked about, adoption of Kubernetes, or service meshes, the challenges that those environments bring both the femorality of the environments on which you now deploy compared to what most of the operators and application developers are used to, as well as the constant motion in the system, right. Kupernetes will move the workload several times an hour and the amount of data those systems tend to generate becomes fairly difficult to cope not just to a monitoring system, but to a human, right? So how can you take about what Karthik talked about all this noise and get it into an actionable intelligence across tens of millions times series an hour possibly in the middle of the night, how do you get the operator to the root cause very quickly? And what kind of technologies do we need to have as a vendor, and that's where we spend a lot of time thinking about, how do we provide actionable insight for those highly femoral environments that are getting even more femoral? >> One of the themes that's here, and already we're seeing it pop out of Google Next, and we've seen it in the other cloud shows we've gone to is, complexity is increasing, and the business model that seems to work well is taking complexity and making things simple. >> Mhm >> Right >> Whether it's extraction layers or other techniques, how does a customer, who's got all these new suppliers, new dynamics, new shift in the marketplace, new business models, how does a customer deploy IT, deploy cloud, and move the complexity to a simplicity model? This is a hard challenge. >> Well, I think that's one of the fundamental mental model shifts that an organization needs to make. Complexity was your enemy in the old days. Right, because you were releasing software once a year, twice a year and so you don't want it to be complex. But if your goal is speed and innovation, you're going to have to accept some complexity to get that speed and innovation. You just have to decide where is that complexity acceptable and how do you change your processes and your tooling to minimize the impact of that complexity. So I think I would disagree with that sentiment because I think organizations have to start thinking about things differently if they really want to move quickly. >> So embrace complexity. >> You have to embrace complexity and you have to think about what are the mitigating factors I need to take in my organization structure, my processes, my tooling, to compensate for the additional complexity I'm creating, but still release software as quickly as I used to. >> I would add, I think in a lot of ways you're shifting the complexity from infrastructure management more up the stack. >> That's, ya. >> In many ways IT is getting more complex, to your point Karthik. >> Ya, I mean all of these extractions make perhaps the underlying infrastructure less complex to manage but you're absolutely right Dave, the applications will become more complex when you move to microservices and you've got 50 pizza box teams working on a bunch of microservices, there's an organizational dynamic as much as there's a tech dynamic, right. How do you get these 50 teams to communicate with one another if there's a issue, an incident. >> And the data pathways, the data pipelines, the journey of that data, is much, much more complex. >> Ya absolutely. >> Final question, as the developers and operators come together, that seems to be a big trend. Developers want frictionless environment, programmable internet, they're going to be spitting up these services and then the operators have to run it. Those worlds are coming together. What's your thoughts on the operations side and developers coming together? >> I think they're two peas in a pod. They're two parts, they're two necessary parts. I think you will see more and more automation move up the stack. I think the place to start is really in the infrastructure layer and it will make the lives of operators of these cloud environments simpler. And then I think that automation will move up the stack as well over time. >> What's the most important story coming out of Google Next, if you can just kind of read the tea leaves, get a sense of what's going on here? 2019, whole new year, whole new game changing. What are your guys' thoughts on what's kind of going on in the cloud business this year? What' going on at Google Next? What's the big story? >> Well I think from my perspective it's very clear they're focused a lot on multi cloud, cloud agnostic and where the right ones run anywhere and run on Google. That seems to be a big push. And then the other is they're just behind on go to market and they seem to be focusing quite a bit on investing in all of the other elements, non-technology elements, to make organizations successful. >> Leonid, on the tech side, what do you see as the big in story here? >> I think Google was always found on the tech and they're continuing to deepen it. I think more interesting for me the story is about the go to market and embracing the complexity of the enterprise. >> Right >> And recognizing that not every application that will come to Google Cloud will be architected in a modern way. The thousands upon thousands of applications that have to lift and shift still and surviving some of the announcements around the service mesh are great enablers for those customers to start embracing the cloud technology. >> Tech geeks love service mesh, I'm a big fan. Guys, thanks for sharing the insight. Give a quick plug for what's going on for SignalFx. What's going on in the company? What are you guys looking to do? Are you hiring, are you expanding, what's going on? >> Ya we're in rapid growth here as a company. We're really excited about microservices APM product that we introduced late last year and what that does is it brings distributed trace analytics to our core monitoring platform. So what that allows you to do is get bottoms up visibility into each individual component through our metrics system, but also a transaction oriented view through our micro services APM product. Bringing the two together, super excited about the level of sophistication and analytics that it's going to bring our customers. >> What's the head count? What's the head count now, roughly? >> We're about 250 people right now. >> 250 okay, and you've raised over nine figures, I think? >> Over a hundred million dollars yeah. >> That's great, congratulations. >> So Karthik as a founder, what's it like to have the vision early and seeing it, and staying the course? And you've stayed on the right wave. >> Yeah. >> And now the wave's gotten bigger, what's it like to be the founder and be where you are now? >> It's terrifying at first because you don't know if the markets are going to move in the direction you need them to, but it's very gratifying when that actually happens and we're very fortunate that the world is moving very squarely into cloud based architectures, and not just cloud but all of these modern run times that are exactly what we predicted the world would look like for the last six years now. >> And you had a great team, engineering team was solid, you've got great chops. Any advice for entrepreneurs out there who are now getting into this world, maybe younger entrepreneurs coming out, building some applications? What's your advice to other founders that are... >> I could spend hours on that topic (laughter) >> I think >> Dave: Ship early and often >> You just have to continue to have faith and conviction in your beliefs and stick it out because there are lots of twists and turns, especially in the early days if you're betting ahead of the curve, you need to be patient and continue to have belief in yourself and your ideas. >> Well congratulations the world has right spun to your doorstep, congratulations with SignalFx. Thanks for coming on theCube. We're in San Francisco for theCube's coverage. Day one of three days. I'm John with Dave Vellante. Stay with us for more live coverage after this short break. (light electronic music)

>> Live, from the Seattle, Washington. It's theCUBE, covering KubeCon and CloudNativeCon, North America 2018, brought to you by Red Hat, the Cloud Native Computing Foundation and it's ecosystem partners. >> Welcome back everyone. We're live here in Seattle for theCUBE's exclusive coverage of KubeCon and CloudNativeCon 2018. I'm John Furrier at Stuart Miniman. Our next guest Stephan Fabel, who is the Director of Product Management at Canonical. CUBE alumni, welcome back. Good to see you. >> Thank you. Good to see you too. Thanks for having me. >> You guys are always in the middle of all the action. It's fun to talk to you guys. You have a pulse on the developers, you have pulse on the ecosystem. You've been deep in it for many, many years. Great value. What's hot here, what's the announcement, what's the hard news? Let's get to the hard news out of the way. What's happening? What's happening here at the show for you guys? >> Yeah, we've had a great number of announcements, a great number of threads of work that came into fruition over the last couple of months, and now just last week where we announced hardware reference architectures with our hardware partners, Dell and SuperMicro. We announced ARM support, ARM64 support for Kubernetes. We released our version 1.13 of our Charmed Distribution of Kubernetes, last week And we also released, very proud to release, MicroK8s. Kubernetes in a single snap for your workstation in the latest release 1.13. >> Maybe explain that, 'cause we often talk about scale, but there is big scale, and then we're talking about edge, we're talking about so many of these things. >> That's right. >> That small scale is super important, so- >> It really is, it really is, so, MicroK8s came out of this idea that we want to enable a developer to just quickly standup a Kubernetes cluster on their workstation. And it really came out of this idea to really enable, for example, AIML work clouds, locally from development on the workstation all the way to on-prem and into the public cloud. So that's kind of where this whole thing started. And it ended up being quite obvious to us that if we do this in a snap, then we actually can also tie this into appliances and devices at the edge. Now we're looking at interesting new use cases for Kubernetes at the edge as an actual API end point. So it's a quite nice. >> Stephan talk about ... I want to take a step back. There's kind of dynamics going on in the Kubernetes wave, which by the way is phenomenal, 8000 people here at KubeCon, up from 4000. It's got that hockey stick growth. It's almost like a Moore's Law, if you will, for the events. You guys have been around, so you have a lot of existing big players that have been in the space for a while, doing a lot of work around cloud, multi-cloud, whatever ... That's the new word, but again, you guys have been there. You got like the Cisco's of the world, you guys, big players actively involved, a lot of new entrants coming in. What's your perspective of what's happening here? A lot of people looking at this scratching their head saying: Okay I get Kubernetes, I get the magic. Kubernetes enables a lot of things. What's the impact to me? What's in it for me as an enterprise or a developer? How do you guys see this market place developing? What's really going on here? >> Well I think that the draw to this conference and to technology and all the different vendors et cetera, it's ultimately a multi-cloud experience, right? It is about enabling workload portability and enabling the operator to operate Kubernetes, independently of where that is being deployed. That's actually also the core value proposition of our charmed Kubernetes. The idea that a single operational paradigm allows you to experience, to deploy, lifecycle manage and administer Kubernetes on-prem, as well as any of the public clouds, as well as on other virtual substrates, such as VMware. So ultimately I think the consolidation of application delivery into a single container format, such as Docker and other compatible formats, OCI formats right? That was ultimately a really good thing, 'cause it enabled that portability. Now I think the question is, I know how to deploy my applications in multiple ways, 'cause it's always the same API, right? But how do I actually manage a lot of Kubernetes clusters and a lot of Kubernetes API end points all over the place? >> So break down the hype and reality, because again, a lot of stuff looks good on paper. Love the soundbites of people saying, "Hey, Kubernetes," all this stuff. But people admitting some things that need to be done, work areas. Security is a big concern and people are working on that. Where is the reality? Where does the rubber meet the road when it comes down to, "Okay, I'm an enterprise. What am I buying into with Kubernetes? How do I get there?" We heard Lyft take an approach that's saying, "Look, it solved one problem." Get a beachhead and take the incremental approach. Where's the hype, where's the reality? Separate that for us. >> I think that there is certainly a lot of hype around the technology aspect of Kubernetes. Obviously containerization is invoked. This is how developers choose to engage in application development. We have Microservices architecture. All of those things we're very well aware of and have been around for quite some time and in the conversation. Now looking at container management, container orchestration at scale, it was a natural fit for something like Kubernetes to become quite popular in this space. So from a technology perspective I'm not surprised. I think the rubber meets the road, as always, in two things: In economics and in operations. So if I can roll out more Kubernetes clusters per day, or more containers per day, then my competitor ... I gain a competitive advantage, that the cost per container is ultimately what's going to be the deciding factor here. >> Yeah, Stephan, when I think about developers how do I start with something and then how do I scale it out in the economics of that? I think Canonical has a lot of experience with that to share. What are you seeing ... What's the same, what's different about this ecosystem, CloudNative versus, when we were just talking about Linux or previous ways of infrastructure? >> Well I think that ultimately Kubernetes, in and of itself, is a mechanism to enable developers. It plays one part in the whole software development lifecycle. It accelerates a certain part. Now it's on us, distributors of Kubernetes, to ensure that all the other portions of this whole lifecycle and ecosystem around Kubernetes, where do I deploy it? How do I lifecycle manage it? If there's a security breach like last Monday, what happens to my existing stack and how does that go down? That acceleration is not solved by Kubernetes, it's solved for Kubernetes. >> Your software lives in lots and lots of environments. Maybe you can help clarify for people trying to understand how Kubernetes fits, and when you're playing with the public cloud, your Kubernetes versus their Kubernetes. The distinction I think is, there's a lot of nuance there that people may need help with. >> That's true, yeah. So I think that, first of all, we always distance ourself from the notion of having our Kubernetes. I think we have a distribution of Kubernetes. I think there is conformance, tests that are in place that they're in place for a reason. I think it is the right approach, and we won't install a fourth version of Kubernetes anytime soon. Certainly, that is one of the principles we adhere to. What is different about our distribution of Kubernetes is the operational tooling and the ability to really cookie-cutter out Kubernetes clusters that feel identical, even though they're distributed and spread across multiple different substrates. So I think that is really the fundamental difference of our Kubernetes distribution versus others that are out there on the market. >> The role of developers now, 'cause obviously you're seeing a lot of different personas emerging in this world. I'm just going to lay them out there and I want to get your reaction. The classic application developer, the ones who are sitting there writing code inside a company. It could be a consumer company like Lyft or an enterprise company that needs ... They're rebuilding inside, so it's clear that CIOs or enterprises, CXOs or whatever the title is, they're bringing more software in-house, bringing that competitive advantage under application development. You have the IT pro expert, practitioner kind of role, classic IT, and then you got the opensource community vibe, this show. So you got these three things inter-playing with each other, this show, to me feels a lot like an opensource show, which it is, but it also feels a lot like an IT show. >> Which it also is. >> It also is, and it feels like an app development show, which it also is. So, opportunity, challenge, is this a marketplace condition? What's you thoughts on these kind of personas? >> Well I think it's really a question of how far are you willing to go in your implementation of devops cultural change, right? If you look at that notion of devops and that movement that has really taken ahold in people's minds and hearts over the last couple of years, we're still far off in a lot of ways and a lot of places, right? Even the places who are saying they're doing devops, they're still quite early, if at all, on that adoption curve. I think bringing operators, developers and IT professionals together in a single show is a great way for the community and for the market to actually engage in a larger devops conversation, without the constraint of the individual enterprise that those teams find themselves in. If you can just talk about how you should do something better and how would that work, and there is other kinds of personas and roles at the same table, it is much better that you have the conversation without the constraint of like a deadline or a milestone, or some outage somewhere. Something is always going on. Being able to just have that conversation around a technology and really say, "Hey, this is going to be the one, the vehicle that we use to solve this problem and further that conversation," I think it's extremely powerful. >> Yeah, and we always talk about who's winning and who's losing. It's what media companies do. We do it on theCUBE, we debate it. At the end of the day we always like ... There's no magic quadrant for this kind of market, but the scoreboard can be customers. Amazon's got over 5000 reputable customers. I don't know how many CNCF has. It's probably a handful, not 5000. The customer implications are really where this is going. Multi-cloud equals choice. What's your conversations like with customers? What do you see on the customer landscape in terms of appetite, IQ, or progress for devops? We were talking, not everyone's on server lists yet and that's so obvious that's going to be a big thing. Enterprises are hot right now and they want the tech. Seeing the cloud growth, where's your customer-base? What are those conversations like? Where are they in the adoption of CloudNative? >> It's an extremely interesting question actually, because it really depends on whether they started with PaaS or not. If they ever had a PaaS strategy then they're mostly disillusioned. They came out, they thought it was going to solve a huge problem for them and save them a lot of money, and it turns out that developers want more flexibility than any PaaS approach really was able to offer them. So ultimately they're saying, "You know what, let's go back to basics." I'll just give you a Kubernetes API end point. You already know how to deal with everything else beyond that, and actually you're not cookie-cuttering out post ReSQueL- >> Kubernetes is a reset to PaaS. >> It really does. It kind of disrupted that whole space, and took a step back. >> All right, Stephan, how about Serverless. So a lot of discussion about Knative here. We've been teasing out where that fits compared to functions from AWS and Azure. What's the canonical take on this? What are you hearing from your customers? >> So Serverless is one of those ... Well it's certainly a hot technology and a technology of interest to our customers, but we have longstanding partnerships with Galactic Fog and others in place around Serverless. I haven't seen real production deployments of that yet, and frankly it's probably going to take a little bit longer before that materializes. I do think that there's a lot of efforts right now in containerization. Lots of folks are at that point where they are ready to, and are already running containerized workloads. I think they're busy now implementing Kubernetes. Once they have done that, I think they'll think a little bit more about Serverless. >> One of the things that interest me about this ecosystem is the rise of Kubernetes, the rise of choice, the rise of a lot of tools, a lot of services, trying to fend off the tsunami wave that's hit the beach out of Amazon. I've always said in theCUBE that that's ... They're going to take as much inland territory on this tsunami unless someone puts up a sea wall. I think this is this community here. The question is, is that ... And I want to get your expert opinion on this, because the behemoths, the big guys are getting richer. The innovation's coming from them, they have scale. You mentioned that as a key point in the value of Kubernetes, is scale, as one of those players, I would consider in the big size, not like a behemoth like an Amazon, you got a unique position. How can the industry move forward with disruption and innovation, with the big guys dominating? What has to happen? Is there going to change the size of certain TAMs? Is there going to be new service providers emerging? Something's got to give, either the big guys get richer at the expense of the little guys, or market expands with new categories. How do you guys look at that? Developers are out there, so is it promising look to new categories, but your thoughts. >> I think it's ... So a technology perspective certainly would be, there could be a disruptive technology that comes in and just eats their lunch, which I don't believe is going to happen, but I think it might actually be a more of a market functionality actually. If it goes down to the economics, and as they start to compete there will be a limit to the race to the bottom. So if I go in on an economical advantage point as a public cloud, then I can only take that so far. Now, I can still take it a lot further, but there's going to be a limit to that ultimately. So, I would say that all of the public clouds, we see that increasingly happening, are starting to differentiate. So they're saying, "Come to me for IML." "Come to me for a rich service catalog." "Come to me for workload portability," or something like that, right? And we'll se more differentiation as time goes on. I think that will develop in a little bit of a bubble, to the point where actually other players who are not watching, for example, Chinese clouds, right? Very large, very influential, very rich in services, they can come in and disrupt their market in a totally different way than a technology ever could. >> So key point you mentioned earlier, I want to pivot on that and get to the AI conversation, but scale is a competitive advantage. We've seen that on theCUBE, we see it in the marketplace. Kubernetese by itself is great but at scale it gets better, got nobs and policy. AI is a great example of where a dormant computer science concept that has not yet been unleashed ... Well, it gets unleashed by cloud. Now that's proliferating. AI, what else is out there? How do you see this trend around just large-scale Kubernetes, AI and machine learning coming on around the corner? That's going to be unique, and is new. So you mentioned the Chinese cloud could be a developer here. It's a lever. >> Absolutely, we've been involved with kubeflow since the early days. Early days, it's barely a year, so what early days? It's a year old. >> It's yesterday. >> So a year a ago we started working with kubeflow, and we published one of the first tutorials of how to actually get that up and running and started on Ubuntu, and with our distribution of Kubernetes, and it has since been a focal point of our distribution. We do a couple of things with kubeflow. So the first thing, something that we can bring as a unique value preposition is, because we're the operating system for almost all GKE, all of AKS, all EKS, such a strong standing as an operating system, and have strong partnerships with folks like NVIDIA. It was kind of one of the big milestones that we tried to achieve and we've since completed, actually as another announcement since last week, is the full automatic deployment of GPU enablement on Kubernetes clusters, and have that identical experience happen across the public clouds. So, GPGPU enablement on Kubernetes, as one of the key enablers for projects like kubeflow, which gives you machine learning stacks on demand, right? And then a parallel, we've been working with kubeflow in the community, very active, formed a steering committee to really get the industry perspective into the needs of kubeflow as a community and work with everybody else in that community to make sure that kubeflow releases on time, and hopefully soon, and a 1.0, which is due this summer, but right now they're focused on 0.4. That's a key area of innovation though, opportunity. >> Oh, absolutely. >> I see Amazon's certainly promoting that. What else is new? I've got one last question for you. What's next for you guys? Get a quick plugin for Canonical. What's coming around the corner, what's up? >> We're definitely happy to continue to work on GPGPU enablement. I think that is one of the key aspects that needs to stay ... That we need to stay on top of. We're looking at Kubernates across many different use cases now, especially with our IoT, open to core operating system, which we'll release shortly, and here actually having new use cases for AIML inference. For example, out at the edge looking at drones, robots, self-driving cars, et cetera. We're working with a bunch of different industry partners as well. So increased focus on the devices side of the house can be expected in 2019. >> And that's key these data, in a way that's really relevant. >> Absolutely. >> All right, Stephan, thanks for coming on theCUBE. I appreciate it, Canonical's. Great insight here, bringing in more commentary to the conversation here at KubeCon, CoudNativeCon. Large-scale deployments as a competitive advantage. Kubernetes really does well there: Data, machine learning, AI, all a part of the value and above and below Kubernatese. We're seeing a lot of great advances. CUBE coverage here in Seattle. We'll be back with more after this short break. 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>> From Seattle, Washington, it's theCUBE. Covering KubeCon and CloudNativeCon North America 2018. Brought to you by Red Hat. The Cloud Native Computing Foundation and it's ecosystem partners. [techno Music] >> Okay, welcome back everyone. It's theCUBE's live coverage in Seattle for KubeCon and CloudNativeCon 2018. I'm John Furrier with theCUBE. Stu Miniman. Breaking down all the action. Talking to all the thought leaders, all the experts, all the people making it happen. We're here with Aparna Sinha who's the group product manager, Kubernetes, Google Cloud. Also one of the power women of the Cloud at Google, according the Forbes. I wrote the story. Great to see you again. >> Thank you, great to be here with you. >> Thanks for coming on. >> CUBE alumni. Great to have you on. I want to get your prospective. One when you've seen a lot of action, certainly overseeing the group engineering team at Google and all the Kubernetes action. A lot of contribution, a lot of activity, that you guys are leading. >> Yes. >> And quite frankly enabling and contributing to the community. So, congratulations and thanks for that work. Kubernetes certainly looking good. People are pumped up. >> Very much. >> 8,000 people. A lot of activity. A lot of new things around that you guys are always kind of bringing into, the Geo, knative, a lot things. You gave a key note. What's your focus here this year? What's the message from Google? >> Yeah, well as you pointed out, this is the largest KubeCon ever. 8,000 people, 2,000 on the wait list. And people are telling me here that this is the... This is here to stay, right? It's in the early majority going to the mainstream very much like you kind of think about virtualization was 10 years ago. So that's the momentum that I'm seeing here, that I'm hearing here. My keynote was about the community. Thanking the community first of all. So I talked about how open-source really, success in contingent on contribution. And so, I started by showing the contribution over the last one year, the companies that are contributing. And 80% of contributions are by at least 10 entities. One of them is individual contributors. 40% percent I think was Google, which is still staggeringly high. And then the next highest was Red Hat. And so I think in many of the keynotes, we've been calling out the contributors because it's really important. 1.13, the 13th release of Kubernetes shipped last week. A lot of stability, a lot of GA features, and the uptake in the enterprise. The other thing I called out was just the amount of job opportunity in Kubernetes >> Yeah >> 230% growth in the last year. You see here so many customers that are here to talk about their experience. But also they're here to hire. >> Yeah. And there recruiters on the floor, so it's been I think a huge economic value add. And we feel very proud of that. >> Yeah, Aparna, great point. We've been talking about the end users. I always loved... There's a job board right outside the hall here and it's just covered. Big giant white board there. Bring us inside a little bit. I mean Google's always fascinating people. What's the hiring situation there? What's your team lookin' like? Is anybody smart enough to actually go work there? >> Google, I think we've been very, very fortunate in that we've had the original board team that started the Kubernetes project. And so we have a really, really deep bench because we've been running containers since the beginning. So now 15 years of experience with that, which many people tell me, I think that the reason that Kubernetes is so successful is because it's not new actually, right? >> Yeah >> It's been tried and true at scale. So, we have quite a bit of that, but we've been building this community and a lot of folks have been hired in through the community-- >> Yeah >> into Google. And really amazing, amazing people. So yeah. >> The thing about we had Brian Grant on yesterday and Tim Hockin -- Yes. >> Who was talking about some of those early board days. >> Yes. I want to ask you your point of about the hiring because I think this is a interesting dynamic. Open-source is key to your strategy. We've talked many times about how you guys are committed to open source, but what's interesting is not just net new jobs are available, we're seeing a revitalization around traditional roles like the network engineer under Kubernetes. Looking at the policy knobs that your folks pointed out that's... They think it's underutilized. And then on top of Kubernetes, new things are going on that's getting the app kind of server guy-- >> Yeah. >> Kind of energized. >> Yeah. >> It's kind of enabling a lot of thing, actions that's transforming existing jobs. >> That's right. >> And bringing new ones. >> Talk about that dynamic because you see it from both sides. >> Yes >> You've got SREs, site reliable engineers. >> Yes >> You've got developers. But, Now enterprises are now trying to adopt... >> That's right >> You guys are hitting that note. Talk about that dynamic. >> That's right, so I've been talking to a lot of customers here, it's been non-stop. I've not been able to attend any talks or keynotes. And I'm seeing two things. One there's the kind of operations now called platform teams. And they're under tremendous pressure. They're doing incredible work. Incredible. And they're energized. They're really... So one of the customers I was talking to was moving from VMs on EC2 to containers on GCE on Kubernetes. Google Cloud. And in the last one year, they looked... Honestly, they looked miserable because they have worked so hard in doing that transfomation. Turning their application from a VM-based application into containers. But you could also see that they were so happy and so successful because of the impact that it's had. And so and then I asked them so like, "What is driving that?" This is different customer. What is driving that? And it's really... As soon they get that environment up and running, and this is a large enterprise bank that I was talking to, this other one, their developers are just all over it. And they have, they have hundreds of services running within six months. And they're like, "Well we just got this platform up. "We still have to figure how we're going to upgrade it." But it's... So those are the two constituents. The developers are happy. >> The integration and delivery changes the makeup of how teams work. So that's one thing we're seeing here. And the other one is just scale. >> Yeah. >> So that seems to be the area. Now I got to ask you, as you guys look at... As you guys are doing the work on the enterprise side, you guys, I know you're working hard, I talk to Jennifer a lot, Jennifer Lynn, as well and we've talked before, are used to doing the work. But there's still a lot more work done. Where do you guys see the work that this community value opportunities for participants in the eco-system to fill white spaces? Where are the value lines starting to be drawn? Can you comment? >> Yeah, so I see two or three different areas. One of the areas is of course hardening. And that's why Janet Quill gave the keynote about "Kubernetes is boring and that's a good thing". And that's been something we've been working on for the last year at least. Adding a lot more security capabilities. Adding a lot more just moving everything to GA, right? Adding a lot more hooks in the enterprise storage and into enterprise networking. Building up the training and building up the partners that'll do the implementations. All of those things I think are very, very healthy. >> Yeah. >> Cause I see them. You probably talked to the CNCF. They're helping a lot with the certification and the training. So that's one piece of enterprise adoption. I think the other piece is the developer experience. And that's where a lot of the talks here, my key note as well, I demoed Istio and Knative on top of GKE. The developer experience is ultimately this whole thing. My perspective, this whole thing is about making your developers more productive. And developers have been driving this transition. Again going back to those customer examples. So that's getting a lot easier. >> Yeah, Aparna, I'd love you to talk a little about Knative. So, I know the excitement is there. Products only been around for five months. I remember at your show last summer it was announce and roll. Trying to understand exactly what it is. It's like, wait, wait is serverless going to kill Kubernetes? And how does this fit? How does this work with all the various services in the Cloud? Maybe just understand where we are. >> Right. >> What it is, what it isn't. >> Right. >> Again, so the heritage of serverless, I'm going to go back to Google, right? We have the first serverless offering in the world like 10 years ago. And so that's based on containers. Underneath it's based on containers. That's why we knew that with Kubernetes that's the right foundation for building serverless. And it actually, I think, we sort of held back for the longest time. And a couple of years ago there were one, two, and then 15, and then 17 serverless frameworks that just kind of all popped up around Kubernetes, on top of Kubernetes. I remember the first demo in the community. Here's this serverless piece. And at some point, a little bit over a year ago we decided that actually serverless is really important to our customers, to our users. The majority of Kubernetes tends to be on-prem, actually. And so it's important to them to have serverless capabilities on-prem. So then we need to make sure it's stable and it's something that's standard. >> I think it's a really important point... I talked to some people that are in the serverless ecosystem that is living on a AWS and they say, "You can't build serverless on-prem "because then you're racking "and stacking and dealing with it." And it's not... We know there's servers underneath of it and it's just system calls and how we consume that. But maybe explain the nuances to how this is important and we understand it. >> Yeah. >> There's not like a solution out there. >> Yeah. >> Server meshes, there's a lot of options out there right now. >> Yeah. >> So. >> A lot of things, because this is an open-source community, a lot of things come from the users. So when the user says, "You know what, actually need "the serverless capability on-prem. "Why? "Because I've got this developer group and I don't want "them to have to muck with the infrastructure. "I don't want them to have access to the infrastructure. "I want to just give them a simple interface "where they're going to write their applications "and the rest is taken care of for them." Right? And then I want to be able to bill them on a per-use basis. So, it's... Yeah there's someone managing the server. Someone building actually the severless capability and that's the platform team. That's the guys that I talked about that are working very hard these days happily. But, working very hard. >> And these are the new personas, by the way-- >> Yeah. >> In the enterprise. This is new kind of new re-architecting of how enterprises are creating value. These new platform teams. >> Right. >> This is the opportunity. Well I got to ask you, you know everyone that watches theCUBE knows I'm a big fan of scale. Love Amazon scale. I love Google scale. I love the enterprise market. And I want to get your thoughts... I want you to take a minute to explain the culture at Google Cloud. Because it's a separate building. Give you an opportunity to share. But you guys are working hard to go after the enterprise. It's not like a new thing. But the enterprise is interesting. It's not so much the best technology that wins. It's grit. It's almost like a street fight. You got to go out. You got to win those battles. Get all the work done. Hit those features. You can't just roll into town and say we've got great technology. We're Google. You guys recognize this. And I want you to share the culture you guys are building and how you guys are attacking the enterprise. What's the guiding principles? What are some of the core tenants? >> Yeah, yeah. So you know my entire life has been spent in enterprise software. >> Yeah. >> I do think that enterprises respect Google Cloud. I work very closely with them. And they respect certainly the engineering prowess. Like, "Wow. I need that." >> Yeah. Right? Especially you see all these enterprises that are being transformed by technology. Their industry is being transformed by technology. Whether that's in transportation, or it's in retail, or it's in media. And they want the best. They want the latest. Right? And they also don't necessarily have the skills, like you said, right? So they're looking for a partner that'll both help them scale up but also provide them all of that guidance. And the one thing you asked about culture at Google. I think we are a revolutionary company. We are willing to do lots of things. Lots of things that you wouldn't expect. And that's why you saw GK on-prem from my team, right? The first, kind of, Kubernetes on-prem offering from a cloud provider. Managed by a cloud provider. And that's really... I mean we've seen tremendous, tremendous interest in that. Tremendous feedback from our users and new customers. People that hadn't thought about it. Hadn't thought about Google, necessarily before that have said, "Wow. If you are going to come and help me on-prem "with this, I'm ready. "Give it to me now. "Because I trust you and I know I want to go to the Cloud. "So it's the right step for me. "You have the right incentives." Right? "And you're the open cloud, which is important to me "because I may want to be multi cloud." So that's the piece that is... >> You got the enterprise chops. You've spent your whole career there. I know Jennifer as well. >> Yes. >> A lot of people you guys have hired. >> Right. >> The good news is you've got a market that's changing. So you don't have to come in and replicate the old IT. So that's an opportunity at Google. How are you guys attacking that, that beachhead? Because you have the check. What's the vibe? What's the grit? What's it like... How you guys attacking the enterprise? What do you see as opportunities knowing the enterprise of old-- >> Yeah >> As it shifts to new kind of method? >> Yeah. >> What's the core? >> I think about the problems the users are having. I think about what is the problem the customer is facing. And so... And then breaking that down and solving that for them. I mean that's what's important, right? And so some of the problems I see is one they need a developer platform. And the developer platform sometimes cannot be in the Cloud. When I talk to large financial institutions, there's so much compliance and regulation and things that have to be on-prem. That it has to be on-prem. And they try to move to the Cloud and some things will do it. But the majority, like 90% is on-prem. And so they need an agile development environment and there's no holding it back. Because, like I said, there's all this transformation. Their developers need that environment today. So you have to provide that. That's one use case. We provide an on-prem development and agile development environment. Best in class. Your developers are super happy. Your business is going to do well. The other thing I see, and I see this a lot in retail, but also in hospitality at some of these very kind of brick and mortar enterprises is the edge. They need a solution at their edge location. Thousands, these are thousands of branch locations. We've even got this use case with Chick-fil-A, right? And a lot of times this is... A lot of different use cases, but a lot of time the common thing is that they're collecting data. They're doing some processing at that site and then they're doing further processing in the Cloud. And so it's a connected, but an intimately, it's not always connected.... Intimately connected environment. So that's the second big use case. Edge retail or just edge. There's so many... For me, it's one of the most exciting. There's so many examples of that. >> Awesome. >> Aparna, first of all, just so many goodness I want to say thank you to Google because everything from I heard at the show Google wasn't giving out swag because it actually went to charitable givings instead of spending that money. One of the things we always look is open-source is, how much more value is being created for the eco-system not just the vendor that started it. And it is a really tough balance. We've seen it fail many times. Do you step too far back? And how much do you engage? How do you strike that bound? For the last five to 10 years, we've been saying, "Where is the independent place where we can have that "conversation about cloud?" We think found it at this show. I mean we've been here for three years now. Google Cloud, phenomenal event. Our teams loves to be there, but this feels like overnight has turned into oh wait, here's the show we were looking at to have that conversation. To have that commons where we can come together and there's so many diversity of people, diversity of projects in here. Many which have very disconnected from original Kubernetes and everything, so. It's been fascinating to watch and have to imagine your team is... When you watch that first piece go and everything that's built around it. It's got to be amazing. >> My team loves this event. We have literally I think 300 people here. And a lot of them are core maintainers. Everybody is a contributor, but they are core maintainers of the Kubernetes project. The Istio project. The Knative project. And I think the best thing here is just interacting with our users. Because this is a developer, this is a developer conference, primarily. There's a lot of businesses here. >> Yeah >> With their kind of director level executives. But primarily it's an action-oriented hands-on audience. And you just... These customer meetings that I have, we review their architecture and we're like... It's an engineer to engineer conversation. >> Yep. >> And so how can we make that better? And sometimes they're contributing back and it makes the whole project better. >> Yeah. The thing, too, is it's an engineering, it's a developer conference, true. But what's interesting about that evolution as it modernizes, those end users are developers. >> That's right. >> And so the end user aspect of this show. >> That's right. >> Is the developer piece. >> That's right. >> It never used to be like that. Used to be COMDEX or some big event. >> Yeah. >> And then people just selling their stuff. >> Yeah. >> Doing business. The end user participation... >> Yes. >> Is not a consumption conversation, it's a contribution. >> Right. And end users are all over the spectrum of sort of really, really hands-on. Very, very smart to just give me something that works and I respect all of that, right? And we were actually very far here in terms of GKE. Giving you something that you really don't need to get in, that's fully managed, right? But then on the other hand we had Uber on stage earlier today in their keynote talking about how they've built all of this advanced capability on GKE. And that's a power user. That's using all their capabilities. Like custom additions and an operator. And it's just really gratifying I think for us to work with them and for us to see the user base as well as the community. So the ecosystem. Google. I thinks it's very important for us to have and create economic opportunity for our partners. And you'll see that with GKE on-prem. We're partnering heavily on that one. And you'll see that also in our marketplace. Our Kubernetes marketplace. So many of the companies that have come out of this ecosystem are now part of selling through Google Cloud. >> Aparna, thank you for your time. I know you've had to move some things around to come here. Great to have you on. I love your leadership at Google, it's phenominal. You've got the enterprise chops building out heavily over there. Congratulations. And for more CUBE interviews check out theCUBE dot net. You can check out Aparna's other good news. Of course search her name on Forbes. I wrote a story about her featuring her. Talking about her background and her passion. Always great to have her on theCUBE and get some commentary from Google. Of course, theCUBE is breaking down live coverage. Been there from the beginning of KubeCon and now CloudNativeCon, the Linux Foundation. Bringing you all the analysis and insight. Be back with more coverage after this short break. [Techno Music]