(upbeat intro) >> From our studios in the heart of Silicon Valley, Palo Alto California, this is a CUBE conversation. >> Hello everyone, welcome to the Palo Alto studios of theCUBE, I'm John Furrier host of theCUBE, we're here with a special power panel on industrial IOT, also known as IIOT, industrial IOT, and cybersecurity, with the theme being apocalypse now or later, when will the rug be pulled out from everyone, when will people have to make a move on making sure that the network and security are all teed up and all locked down, as IOT increases the surface area of networks, industrial IOT, where critical equipment or infrastructure is being run for businesses. Got a great panel here, we got Gabe Lowy who's the founder and CEO of Tectonic Advisors, and author of an upcoming research paper on this particular topic. Bryan Skene, vice president of product development at Tempered Networks, and Greg Ness, the CMO, who happened to be available to join us from Tempered Networks as well. Guys, thanks for spending the time to come on this power panel. >> Great to be here. >> So, convergence is a theme we've heard every wave of innovation, the convergence of this, the convergence of networks and apps. Now more than ever, there's a confluence of multiple waves of convergence happening, you're seeing it right now, infrastructure turned into cloud, big data turned into machine learning and AI, you've got future infrastructure like Blockchain around the corner, but in the middle of all this, the security, data, networking, this is kind of the beginning of a cloud 2.0 dynamic, where pure cloud is great for computing network, you native born in the cloud, you scale it up, it's great. Still got challenges but if you're a large company, and you want to actually operate cloud scale anything, and have instrumentation, internet of things, devices, sensors, in factory's, in plants, in cars, your game is changing, if it's connected to the network, it's got power and connectivity, a terrorist, a hacker, a digital terrorist can come in and do all kinds of damage. This is the topic. So Greg, we talked about this panel, what was the motivation for this, what's your thoughts? >> Well, it occurred to us that you know, as you look at all the connectivity that's you know, underway, billions of devices being connected, the level of scale, complexity, and the porosity of what's being connected, is just really incomprehensible, to the people that developed the internet, and it's raising a lot of issues. All around, basically, the number of devices the inability to protect and secure and update those devices, and the sheer amount of money and effort that would have to be applied to protect them is beyond the scope of current IT security stuff. IT's not ready. >> IT, certainly, you and I talk about this all the time, but you know, I love the hype and you know, digital transformation's going to save the world Gabe, talk about the dynamics because the title of this panel, really the subtitle is apocalypse now or later, and this seems to be the modus operandus is that you know, you know what has to hit the fan before any action is taken, you see Capital One, there isn't a day gone by where there's some major breach, major hack, it's a firewall for Capital One, going to an open S3 bucket from some girl whose bragging about it on Twitter, wasn't really a serious hacker, then you've got adversaries that are organized, whether it's state sponsored and or real money making underbelly activities happening, you know there are digital terrorists out there, there are digital thieves, the surface area with IOT is absolutely opened up, we kind of know that, but industrial IOT, just talking about industrial equipment, industrial activities, whether it's critical infrastructure or planting equipment for a company, this is a huge digital problem. What's your take, what's your thesis? >> Yes it is, and building on what Greg said, there's an interesting gap from both sides. The first is that this industrial equipment or critical infrastructure, some of it goes back 20, 25 years. It was not architected to be connected to the internet, but yet with this digital transformation that you eluded to, companies want to find ways of getting that data, putting it into various analytics engines to improve cost efficiencies or decision outcomes. But how do you do that with a lot of equipment out there that runs on different operating systems and really was not built for internet connections. The other side of the gap is that your traditional IT security technologies, firewalls, intrusion protection, VPN's, they in turn were not built or architected to secure this IIOT infrastructure. And that gap creates the vulnerability that opens the door for cyber criminals to come in, or state sponsored cyber attackers to come in and do some serious damage. >> Bryan, I want you to weight in here. You're a network guy, you've been around the block, you've seen the networks evolve, the primitives were clear, the building blocks internet were, the DNS ran, most of what the internet right now, whether you're talking about from the marketing to routing, it's all DNS based, it's IP addresses as well under that. So you've got the IP address, you've got DNS, what else is there? What can be done? Why aren't these problems being solved by traditional firewalls and traditional players out there, is it just the limitation of the infrastructure? Or is there just more cultural DNA, you've got to evolve, what's your take on this? >> Yeah, um the way I think about this is that the internet that we know and we use was mostly built for human beings, I mean, it's been built for humans to use it, humans have discriminating tastes, they decide what to click on, for the most part they are skeptical, they learn through trial and error what's happened with- when people try to fool other people, a machine or you know, you've got a webpage and it's got something misleading, you learn that, you don't click on that any more. And the infrastructure we have today is built to help people avoid these problems, as well as drop packets when they can detect that something is just absolutely wrong. But machines, they don't know any of that, they're not discriminating, they've been built to, well if it's going to be on a network, to trust everything that's talking to them, and to send data and assume that the other side is also trusting them and just acting on the data. So it's just a fundamentally different problem, you know what traditionally the machine networks have had air gaps, they've been air gapped away from any other kinds of data or potential threat. And those air gaps are gone. >> So air gaps were supposed to save us, weren't they? But they're not are they? >> Well, they kept us going as Gabe alluded, for 20 -25 years, machines have been operating, operating critical infrastructure, but you know, with digitalization, with the opportunity to look at that data in the cloud, and do machine learning, and by the way machine learning's being done in the cloud just for scale, so the problem with getting the data from machines, or other things back into the cloud is a huge issue, and if there's an air gap between say the cloud and the thing, we might be somewhere. >> So a lot of incompatible architectures relative to what everyone's doing with cloud, and say hybrid and multi cloud. Gabe, you know the two worlds of information technology or IT people, and operational technology people, that tend to run the IOT world, you know you do sensors to factory floors to whatever, called OT people, operational technologies. I've always said that's a train wreck between those two cultures, they kind of don't like each other. You got IT guys, they're stacking and racking equipment, OT guys, stay out of my world I run propietary stacks, it's lockdown. Pretty locked down from a security standpoint, IT are pretty promiscuous just in the nature of it. As those two worlds collide, is that the thesis of the catastrophe model, as you see that world coming together, what's your thoughts on this? >> Yes, good question. That world has to come together, and I'll give you an analogy to this. About 10, 12 years ago, a lot of people were doubtful that Devops would ever take off, 'cause development guys really didn't like operations guys, they didn't like dealing with them. Here we are 10 years or so later, and everyone's pretty much adopted it, and they're seeing the benefits of it. This OT IT convergence takes it to a much higher level, because the stakes are so much higher, because a cyber attack can cause catastrophic damage. And as a result, these two teams are not only going to have to work together in harmony, but they're going to have to learn each other's stacks in the case of the OT guys, it's their traditional OSI networking stack for IT networks. And for the IT guys, they're going to have to learn the Purdue model, which was the model that's principally used in architecting these OT systems. And unless these two teams do work together, the vulnerabilities and probabilities for a catastrophic event increases significantly. >> That's a great example, Devops was poo-pooed on earlier on, I mean Greg, we were back in 2008 riffing on this, now it's the mainstream. Agilities come from it, the Lean startup, all kinds of cool things, people are talking about, we love cloud, great. Now we bring the OT world together, and IT world together, Gabe, what is the benefit, what is the key ethos around operating technologies and IT guys coming together? Because you know, dev ops would simply abstract away the complexity so developers don't have to do configuration and management, all that provisioning stuff, and still have the reliability. They called it infrastructure as code, so Devops was infrastructure as code, what's the ethos of the two worlds coming together from IT and OT? >> I think the ethos is at a very high level, it's risk management. Because the stakes are so high that the types of losses that could be incurred, you know you mentioned Capital One at the top of the program, yes those are financial losses, but imagine if the losses resulted in thousands or tens of thousands of people getting infected, or perhaps dying. So the need for these two teams to work together is absolutely critical, and so I'd say the key strategic approach to this, both from the IT and the OT side, is to go into it- into strategy or cyber strategy with the premise that the company has already been compromised. And so that starts to get your thinking away from legacy types of technologies that were not architected to prevent these new threats, or defend against them, and now these teams have to start working together from a totally different standpoint, to try and prevent the risks of those catastrophic losses. >> Greg, I want to get your thoughts, you've been in the IT businesses for a long time, you've been a major player in it, historian as well as us in IT, what do you see as contrast between the two cultures of IT and OT, because you got to lock down these networks, you got to have the teamwork between the two, because the surface area with IOT and industrial IOT is so massive, it's so complicated yet it's an opportunity at the same time it's an exposure, I mean just people working at home in IT, I mean the home is a great place to target people because all you got to do is get that light bulb from nest and you're at a fully threaded processor, you could run malware and get all the passwords from the person working at home. So again, from home to industrial, does IT even have the chops to get there? >> Not the way they're architected today around the TCP- IP stack, and that's the challenge, right? So from the 90's to this era, whether it's the mainframes to the networks to the internet to the enterprise web et cetera, compared to this we've had relatively incremental change, as surprising as that sounds. You know, devices being added and every year, every other year, every three years, people are upgrading those endpoints, they're adding more sophisticated security. But this world that you referred to, the world's in collision. It's not evolving at all in parallel. So, you've got devices with no security in mind they're being connected, and you know, calling it the industrial internet of things almost underwhelms what the risk is, it should be the internet of places or spaces, because what these devices can control, control of a factory, a hospital, et cetera, and you think back you know, yes you've got historical perspective, you don't have to go back very far when the Russians were attacking Ukraine, you know, WannaCry, NotPetya, you know they spread all over the place in a matter of weeks, UK hospitals were running on carbon paper, postponing procedures, Maersk shipping had they're shipping- they lost control of their ships at sea, and now you've got VxWorks coming along, saying you know, you're going to have to update that, because there's some serious vulnerabilities here, VxWorks is deployed to cross billions of devices, so I don't think historically there's really a precedent, I mean, if you want to tap into a common interest with military history, you don't even have the semblance of a Maginot Line, and that was a pretty imperfect protection scheme. >> I mean, the opportunity to infect governments, take 'em down within misinformation to actually harming people say through hospital hacks for instance, you know, people could- lives were in danger. And there's also other threats, I mean, you mentioned, it takes one device to be penetrated, at home or at work, I saw an article, came across my desk I saw IBM did some research, this concept of war shipping, where hackers ship their exploits directly on WiFi devices, so people get these devices, hey, free you know, nest light bulb or whatever's going on, they install in their home, oh it's got, I got a free WiFi router, uh-uh, it's got built in malware. It's just got WiFi connectivity. So again, the exploits are getting more complicated, Bryan, the network has to be smart. At the end of the day, this cloud 2.0 theme is beyond compute and storage, networking and security are two underdeveloped areas that need to evolve very quickly to solve these problems, what's your take on this. >> Well, my take on that is that our approach is that if the network has to be so smart that it can watch everything and understand what's good and bad, then we're doomed, so we're going to need to also combine watching packets, the traditional method, deep packet inspection, with divide and conquer. Frankly, it's-as Tom and I said before, the air gaps are gone for OT. I think we need to figure out a way to divide up the networks of things, and give them clean networks if possible, and try to segment them away from the network that the rest of the things are on. So, you know, we don't have enough compute power, we don't have enough memory and resources, but that's not really the fit. We just don't understand what is good traffic versus bad traffic, and we talk about Day Zero attack, and we talk about, try to chase that down with signatures, and you know the- you can watch transactions, people say AI and machine learning, but machine learning means learning good and bad from people. >> How do companies fix this, what's the answer to all this, or is there one? Or it's just going to take catastrophic loss to wake people up? >> Well we can't react to the problem, that's one thing that we all can probably- we all know that if we wait for the catastrophe, and then we try to react to that and solve it, that it's already gone, it's too late. I mean, this is a geometric expansion in complexity of the problem, I don't think there's a silver bullet, I think that there's going to be several things that need to be done, one is to keep inspecting traffic, but another one is again segmenting things that should be talking to each other, away from things that they should not be talking to. And trying to control the peers in the network of things. And you know, Greg something you said reminded me, fundamentally with networking, the TCP-IP, we are using the IP address, to mean the location say if we're talking about places, we're talking about the location of something and the identity of that thing, and most of our security policies, are spelled out in terms of something, an IP address, that is not under our control, and the network has to be kind of so complex as it is growing, with mass proxies, you know, motion, mobility, things are moving. A lot of this wasn't foreseen. >> So, Gabe and Greg, do we have to build new software, a new naming system? Do we have to kind of level up and put an extraction layer on top of the existing systems? What's the answer? >> The answer is a layered approach. Because to try and do a complete rebuild or a retrofit particularly with different operating systems, different versions, incompatible systems, billions of devices, and various types of security solutions that were not built for this, that's not a practical solution. So you've really got to go with an overlay strategy, people are always going to be the vulnerability, they'll fall for fishing attacks, that's why the strategy is that we're already compromised. So if the attacker is already in our network, how do we contain them from doing serious damage? So one strategy for this is micro-segmentation, which is a much more granular approach, to prevent that lateral movement once the attacker is inside the network. And then when you go from there, you can pair that with host identity protocol which has been around for a while, but that was architected specifically to address the networking and security requirements for IIOT environment, because it addresses that gap that we were talking about between traditional security solutions that lack this functionality, and it only allows white-listed communications between hosts or devices that are already approved and only approved to communicate with one another. So you could effectively do a lockdown even if the attacker is already inside your network. >> I want to get back to some of the criteria on this, and I want to also put the plug in for the TechTonic advisors report that's coming out that you are the author of, called securing critical infrastructure against cyber attacks, I read it, great paper. The line that I read, I want to get your thoughts I'm going to read it out loud, I'd love to get your thoughts on this Gabe or anyone else who wants to chime in, it says industrial IOT cybersecurity is beyond the scope of traditional firewall and VPN solutions would struggle to keep up with the scale and variety of modern attacks. What do you mean by that? Give an example, tell me what you mean by that sentence, and what examples can you give? >> Well, I'd say the most important thing is that firewalls were initially built to protect what we call north-south traffic. In other words, traffic that's coming in from the internet into the organization and back out. But now with network expansion, cloud adoption and more and more devices, industrial devices being connected, these firewalls cannot defend against that. They simply were not architected for it, they cannot scale to those proportions, and even if you're using software only versions, those aren't effective either because they do not protect against east-west or in other words lateral traffic. So if you're an organization moving IIOT data from your OT systems across your network into IP analytics systems or software, that's lateral movement. Your firewall- traditional firewall, just not going to be able to handle that and protect against it, so in simple terms, we need a new overlay not to say that firewalls are going away any time soon, they can still protect north-south traffic, but we need a new type of overlay that can protect this type of traffic, micro-segmentation is the strategy to do that and using host identity protocol or HIP protocol is what fills that gap that your traditional security tools were not designed to protect against. >> Greg, I want you to weigh in on this, because you're in this business now, you know the IT world, the criticality of what you just said is super critical to the nature of business, you know the catastrophic example's there, but IT does not move that fast, you know IT, IT'S like molasses, I mean they're slow. What is going to light a fire under IT to get them to be sensitive, I mean it's pretty obvious, can they get there, do they have to re-structure what has to happen in the IT world, because you know, it is a catastrophic end game here if they don't nail down this traffic protection. >> Well a part of the- you know, part of it is education. Because we've been- we've seen wave and wave of incremental innovation in the network, and when it happened it seemed so big and and it produced huge market cap growth with a lot of companies, you know play this guessing game of who is really connecting to the network. And it's evolved kind of gradually, to this big leap we have ahead of us, and IT is going to have to become aware that IIOT is a fundamentally different problem and challenge to solve, and that's going to require new thinking, new purpose built, like Gabe said, approaches, anything like the traditional firewall segmentation is just not going to address what we talked about, the scale issues, the resilience right? So, some of these devices, you don't want them off for one or two percent of the time. And the implications are that it's much more serious. So I think that, you know, more types of attacks are inevitable, and they're going to be even more catastrophic, and we're all aware that NotPetya and WannaCry raised a lot of eyebrows just for how quick it spread and the damage it caused. And we've just seen VxWorks vulnerabilities being announced. We need to prepare now. >> Malware and worms are still popular, it's a problem. Well guys, thanks so much for spending the time on this panel, I'll give you the final word here, share what you think is going to happen over the next 24 months, 12 months, is it going to take catastrophic failure, what's going to happen in your mind, what's going to end up being the trajectory over the next, you know say year. >> Well, unfortunately, sometimes it might take a catastrophic event to get things moving, hopefully not, but I think there's growing recognition as IIOT is growing, that they need new ways to secure this movement of data between OT and IT, and in order to facilitate that securing of data, you're going to have to have that OT and IT convergence occur, because the risk, as you sort of eluded to earlier John, we hear in the headlines about massive data breaches and all this data that's stolen. But the risk in IIOT is not only the exfiltration of the data, the risk is that the attacker has the capacity to take over the infrastructure. And if that happens in a hospital, if it happens with a water treatment facility or government type of defense installation, the outcomes can be disastrous. So the first thing that has to happen is OT IT convergence. Second, they have to start thinking strategically from a standpoint that they have already been breached, and so that changes their viewpoint about the technologies that they have to deploy, and where they have to move to to efficiently get to what I call the iddies, and that's the- you still need the availability, you've got to have visibility into this traffic, you need reliability of this network, obviously it's got to be at scale, it's got to be manageable, and you need security. >> Well, we'd like to have you on again Gabe, because we've talked about this from a national security perspective, not only the hackers potentially risking the business risk there, there's a national security overlay because you know, if the government's attacking our businesses, that's like showing up on the shores of our country, its the government's job to protect the freedom's and safety of the citizens, that includes companies. So why are companies defending themselves with all this capability, what's the role of government in all of this, that's a very important, I think a longer conversation. So, let's pick that one up, a separate one, my favorite topic these days. Critical infrastructure even if it's just business it's the grid, it's the plants that run our country. >> And John, what I'd like to add to that is, I was talking to a friend of mine who's a CIO down here in California yesterday, and we were talking about the ransomware right, that was taking down all these cities. And you know, he goes well the difference between what you guys are talking about and that, is that you can back up your IT systems, right, into the cloud, and that's a growing business to kind of protect and then replicate game over, and he goes, can you back up a hospital? Can you back up a manufacturing plant? Can you back up a fleet of ships? You know, can you back up a control center? Not really, when you lose physical control, it's game over. And people, I think that really needs to sink in. And that was, I think in Gabe's paper when I first read it, that's what really struck me about it, this is a different ballgame. >> Well, I mean, there's many points, there's the technical point there, and there's also the societal point of- you imagine things being taken over by hackers that physically can harm people, and that's again the societal side, technically the incompatible architecture's coming home to roost now, because there's the problem right there, that's the collision that's happened I think, and a lot of education needs to happen fast, Gabe, thanks for writing that paper critical infrastructure against cyber and securing it, Bryan thanks for coming on appreciate it, you want to say, get the final word Bryan, go ahead. Your thoughts, next 12 months. >> I think that if our future, it depends on OT and IT coming together and a lot of education, a lot of change, I don't think we're going to get there, I think that what's going to happen in the next 24 months is that you know, there are lots of innovative schemes and companies and people, working on this and what we need to do is lay down infrastructure that allows OT and IT to keep operating, and not have to do a forklift upgrade and everything that they do, their processes or teach the things how to protect themselves, and again I'm going to go back to air gaps in network, make a logical air gap, if you imagine driverless cars driving around they're not going to, imagine them sharing the same network that we're using to use Snapchat and look at cities and you know, sitting on the internet and looking at Facebook. We're not going to want that. So we need to try and figure out a way to separate the location of the thing from the identity, create policies in terms of the identity, manage that a new layer, and do it in such a way that doesn't change IT. To me that's the key, 'cause I- we've said it here, IT's doesn't move that fast, they can't. It's not a matter of willpower, it's a matter of momentum and intertia. >> Well, I think the forcing function on this is going to be catastrophic event, the subtitle of this panel, apocalypse now or later. And in my opinion, Greg's been, you know, on this JetEye department of defense story. I believe this is one of the most important stories in the technology industry in a long long time, it really highlights the confluence and convergence of two differently designed infrastructure technologies, that have to in a very short time, be re-platformed at high speed, in a very fast short time frame, because the stakes are so high. So guys, thanks so much for spending the time here on this power panel, IIOT, industrial IOT and cyber security apocalypse now or later, something's going to have to happen, it has to happen fast. Gabe, Bryan, Greg thanks for taking the time. This is a cube conversation here in Palo Alto power panel, I'm John Furrier, thanks for watching. (upbeat music)

(funky music) >> Live from Las Vegas, its theCUBE, covering Dell Technologies World 2019, brought to you by Dell Technologies and its ecosystem partners. >> Welcome to theCUBE. Day three of our live coverage from Dell Technologies World 2019 continues. Lisa Martin with my co-host Stu Miniman and we're welcoming to theCUBE for the first time Michael St-Jean, Principal Marketing Manager for Red Hat Storage. Michael welcome. >> Thanks Lisa. Hi Stu. >> So day three this event is still pretty loud around us. This has about we're hearing upwards of fifteen thousand people. A lot of partners. Give us your perspective on Dell Technologies World 2019. >> I got to tell you this is an awesome show. I got to tell you the energy, and not just in the sessions but out on the show floor as well. It's amazing. And some of the conversations that we've been having out there around things like emerging technologies, emerging workflows around artificial intelligence, machine learning things like that. And the whole adoption around hybrid cloud, it really speaks to all of the things that we're doing, the initiatives that we're leading at Red Hat. So it's a great validation of all of the things that we've been working on for the past 10, 15, 20 years. >> And you had a long-standing relationship with Dell. >> Oh yeah, absolutely. >> 18 years or so? >> Yeah, yeah we've had not just a long relationship but very collaborative relationship with Dell over the past 18 years. It's something like If you take a look at some of the initiatives that we've been working on, we have ready architectures around open stack, around open shift. We have just, we have highlighting a few things here around Microsoft sequel server, around SAP HANA. And actually, we're really talking a lot around open shift and a ready architecture that we've developed, that we have architecture guides, deployment guides all around open shift and open shift container storage for Dell hardware. And actually, next week at our Red Hat Summit event, you should really take a look on Wednesday morning our keynote, our EVP Paul Cormier will be talking about some great, new, very interesting initiatives that we've been working with Dell on. >> Alright well Michael I'm excited we're going to have theCUBE at Red Hat Summit in Boston. It's our sixth year there. I'll be one of the hosts there. John Walls will be there with me. We're going to have Paul Cormier on the program. (laughs) Jim Whitehurst hacking the keynote. It's actually not a secret Satya Nadella and Ginni Rometty will both be up on the main stage there. And just my perspective you were talking about hybrid cloud. As you said, Red Hat Summit, I've been for many years. That hybrid cloud, that adoption. They're both open stack at the infrastructure layer and up to the application with open chip. Something we've been hearing for years and you're right. The general themes seem to echo and resonate here as to what I've been hearing at Red Hat. Can you help expand a little bit those conversations you're having here? I love you talking about some of that app modernization analytics that are going on there. How does that fit into the ready architectures that Dell's offering? >> Sure. Well I represent our storage business unit. So a lot of times, the conversations I'm having over there at the booth are kind of revolving around storage and storage growth. How data is expanding, how do we deal with the scalability of that? How do we deal with persistence of storage and containers for staple applications, things of that nature. But really, at the end of the day as I'm listening to some of the other conversations that my colleagues are having over there, it's really about how do we get work done? How do we now move into these areas where we need that cloud like experience not just in a public cloud or even in a private cloud but everywhere that we touch infrastructure. We need to have that simplified cloud-like experience. >> So just point on your subject area. Talk about the containerization and what's happening with storage pieces. Give us that layer between the infrastructure layer because let me say I believe the t shirt I saw was Linux is container, containers are Linux. So Linux has lived on Dell hardware for a long time. But anything that users should understand about the differentiation between whether they were bare metal or virtualized in the past and containerized environments today? >> Yeah well I like to say that you can't spell Red Hat without storage. (laughs) I don't know that that's particularly true but (laughing) >> It sells good. >> It sells good. Yeah so storage is near and dear to my heart but really at the end of the day, you can't have storage sitting in an island, it has to integrate and be collaborative with the rest of the portfolio that we're expanding out for our customers solving real issues, real problems. And so we've been watching industry trends and certainly these are things like that from an industry we've been looking at over the past five, 10 years so nothing new but we see the evolution of certain things like for example developers and data analysts, data scientists, these people are really charged with going out there and making dramatic differences, transforming their companies, their organizations. And as that transformational application, service development or bringing back insights on data is really integral to a company's ability to transform or differentiate in the industry. They have to be much, much more agile. And it seems that they are more and more taking over a lot of the role that we would normally see traditional I.T. managers making a lot of the purchasing decisions. A lot of the industry trends show that these folks, developers, data analysts are actually making some of those I.T. decisions now. And of course, everything is really being developed as cloud native. So we see cloud native as being more of the new norm. And if you kind of look at the expansion of data, Lisa Spellman a couple of days ago said "Hey look. "We've seen data double in the past two years "but we're only using two percent of that data." >> Two percent? >> Two percent. >> Wow, it's not very much. >> Yeah. And if you look at IDC mentioned that the data sphere has now grown to over 33 Zettabytes. A zettabyte is a billion gigabytes. So put that into perspective. Alright. 33 Zettabytes. By 2025, they project that we're going to grow to 175 Zetabytes. How can we make better use of that data? A lot of that data is coming from IOT type applications. You look at trends, traffic trends and how that might be correlated to weather activities or other events that are going on or archeological digs or all sorts of just information that is brought back. How do we make best use of that information? And so the need for scalability in a hybrid cloud environment, has become more and more of a key industry trend as the data sphere continues to grow. And I think across all three of those, that's really driving this need for hyper convergence and not just hyper convergence in the traditional sense. we've seen hyper convergence in the field for probably about five, 10 years now. But initially it was kind of a niche play and it was based on appliances. Well the past two years, you've seen the Gardner reports on hyper convergence really talking about how it is moving and evolving to more of a software defined nature. And in fact, in the past Magic Quadrant around hyper convergence, you see Red Hat show up. Something that is probably not known that Red Hat has hyper converged offerings. It's something that actually we didn't get into it just because the analysts were suggesting it. We had customers come to us and they were trying to put together Red Hat Enterprise Linux, Red Hat virtualization, storage, et cetera et cetera with varying degrees of success with that because they were doing it more or less as a project. And so we took upon ourselves to develop that, put it into a product and start to develop it with things like Ansible for deployment management. We have dedupe and compression with our virtual data optimization products, virtual GPUs, et cetera. So we're really in that space now too. >> Yeah Michael I mean it really from our standpoint it was a natural extension of what happens if you look at what hyper converged was, it was simplification and it had to be tight integration down at the OS level or the virtualization level. As a matter of fact, when we first wrote our research on it, we called it server SAN because it was the benefits of storage area network but built at the server level. So we said those OS manufacturers. Now I have to admit, I called out VMware and Microsoft are the ones that I considered the biggest ones. But as a natural fit that Red Hat would look out of that environment and if you look at the leaders in the marketplace today, we're here, VMware is here, their softwares piece. Techtonic has transitioned to be a software company. So yeah, welcome to the party. It's been a fun ride to watch that over the last five years. >> Yeah absolutely. >> So let's talk about customers and this spirit of collaboration. You just mentioned sort of the entrance into HCIs being really driven by the voice and the actions and the needs of Red Hat customers. You guys have three major pillars, themes that you have been delivering at Dell Technologies World. Talk to us a little bit about this and how your customers are helping to drive what you're delivering here and what you'll be delivering in the future. >> Yes certainly. I mean that's the whole open source model. And we don't we don't just contribute to the open source community but we develop enterprise grade infrastructure solutions for customers based on the open source way. And so essentially, as I think of it these market trends that I was talking about. It's not that we're leading them or that we're following them. It's we're tightly integrated with them because all of these industry trends are being formulated as we're in progress. It's a great opportunity for Red Hat to really express what we can do with our customers, with our partners, our developers, the folks that we have on our staff that are working directly in the community. Most products that we work on, we're the number one contributor for. So it's all very special opportunity for us. I would say from a storage perspective, what we've really focused on this year is around three main pillars. One is around data portability for those application portability projects that we see in open shift. So being able to offer an enterprise grade persistent storage for stateful applications that are running in these containerized environments. Another area is around that hybrid cloud scalable storage. And this is something that being able to scale that storage to hundreds of petabytes is kind of a big deal (laughs) and especially as we see a lot of the workloads that we've been working with customers on around data analytics and now artificial intelligence, machine learning. Those types of data lakes type projects where we're able to, by using open stack or open shift, we're able to do multi-tenant workforce workload isolation of the work that all of these people are doing while having a shared data context underneath with Red Hat storage. And then the third is around hyper convergence. I think we've touched on that already. >> Yeah so Michael before letting you go I have to touch on the hot thing that everybody needs to understand what's going. The ripple that will be felt throughout the industry. And I'm not talking about a certain 34 billion dollar pending acquisition. (laughs) Constant in the last, most of my career there has been a certain logo that I would see at every conference and that Red Hat that I got my first one, I don't know, 15, 16 years ago. So the shadow man has been deprecated. There's a new Red Hat logo. >> Oh yeah yeah. And we just brought out the new logo today. So a great segue into actually, it was last night, they pulled down the old logos, they put the new logos on the buildings, pretty much around the world. I think it's May Day in Europe. So maybe some of that will happen tomorrow or. Trying to think of what time it is, probably tonight. So yeah it's a great new logo and it's, our old logo has been over, it was around for 19 years since 2000. And it came back from a lot of feedback from customers but also from people who didn't know Red Hat, didn't know what we did. And quite honestly, some of them said that shadow man looked a little sneaky. (laughing) >> I guess on the rise of all those cyber challenges, maybe they're right. >> (laughs) so we have a new logo just launched today. Very proud of it, we're looking forward to working with everybody in the industry and go forward with all these new, wonderful opportunities that we have. >> I look forward to pointing out to all the vendors that they're now using the old Red Hat logo just like they do for every other vendor in this space when it changes. >> As of how many hours ago. (laughing) >> Well it'll be interesting to see and hear what Stu and team uncover at the summit next week in terms of the impact of this brand. We thank you so much for your time Michael, >> Absolutely. >> joining Stu and me on theCUBE. I guess it is just after day of day three. It's hard to tell right it's all blending in together. (laughs) Well we thank you for your time and your insight. >> Thank you very much and see you next week Stu. >> Exactly. For Stu Miniman, I am Lisa Martin, you're watching theCUBE live from day three of our coverage of Dell technologies world 2019. Thanks for watching. (light music)

>> Announcer: Live from Seattle Washington, it's the Cube covering KubeCon and CloudNativeCon, North America, 2018. Brought to you by Redhat, the CloudNative Computing Foundation, and it's ecosystem's partners. (techno music) >> Okay welcome back everyone. We are live in Seattle for KubeCon and CloudNativeCon 2018, Cube's live coverage three days. Day one of a full house event here, through 8,000 people, doubled from last year, I'm John Furrier for Stu Miniman. Our next two guests are from Red Hat. Great to have these guys as our guests, as also thank Red Hat for being great sponsors. Brian "Redbeard" Harrington, Cube Alumni Back Product Manager of Service Mesh at Red Hat, and William Oliveria, Product Manager Serverless at Red Hat, we'll hear a lot about that. You guys, first of all, thanks for coming on, and thanks to your company Red Hat, for being a great supporter of the Cube and the community, the contribution you guys have helped up make, we really appreciate that. Thank you. >> Absolutely delighted to be here. >> Happy to be here. >> John Furrier: Alright, so let's get into it. So service meshes are hot because now Kubernetes is kind of like, we're seeing that is totally stabilized, and now you start to see the engineering, and the value creation happening in layers. Shim layers they call here, I got state-full applications. So you're starting to see service meshes conceptually adopt. Give us a quick update on where that is, how real is it, what's the progress, and what's some of the state-of-the-art activities around it? >> [Brian "Redbeard" Harrington] Well the beautiful thing is, using a service mesh is not anything new at all. I mean, that was really built to top the Netflix OSS ideas. They've been around for seven, eight years now. It's really just kind of decomposing what were a bunch of individual libraries that you had to implement into more infrastructure services, so that you know that you just, regardless of the language, environment, etc., you've always got a certain base platform ready to go. >> John Furrier: Is Service Mesh going to be a standard thing? Is it going to be, service meshes of your flavor, is there going to be certain instances custom services? How do you see that coming out with CSDO, Knative? There's things evolving. >> [Brian "Redbeard" Harrington] Mmhm, yeah. >> What's the state there, is that going to be the new normal, or is it going to see settling? What's your view on that? >> [Brian "Redbeard" Harrington] I think to some extent, it depends on the scale that you're at. If you are at the scale of Yelp or Stripe, one of those, and using Envoy, you already have a good idea of what that mesh is going to look like, so you're building that control plain, in the way that you need it. Where Istio and Linker D and some of the other ones come in, is when you are a smaller scale and you need to figure out what you're control plane is going to look like, that's where it really shines, because it gives you something that you can just start using and has some training wheels on it to make sure that you've got a stable platform to use from day one. >> Stu Miniman: So one of the other news items today I wanted to get your opinion on is, EtsyD has been handed over to Linux Foundation and CNCF, so EtsyD came out of CoreOS of course, which was acquired by Red Hat. Give us a little bit of the update as to why that happened and why it's a good thing for the community. >> So I think for any stable platform, it's really been the theme of what I've been talking about, you've got to know that it's safe to use the software, that there's going to be a longer term vision, and a lot of community guidance around that, and that's why Red Hat made the contribution. When we were at CoreOS, we really wanted to, and it was something that was ultimately a goal, but it kind of became a little bit of a race condition. Do we go ahead and contribute it, and then hope that other folks will join us in building it? Just by open sourcing it, we saw some contributions from IBM around PowerPC architecture and Maso's, and other groups coming in, but putting it just full-bore in the CNCF really guarantees that there will be ongoing community collaboration. >> John Furrier: Just to give a shout out to you guys at CoreOS, you guys did an amazing job, and I think this is a benefit of the Red Hat relationship, because that's the start up dilemma you have, do we get it in there, how do we support it, how do we make it better, is it competitive, was our focus what we optimized it for? But now with the Red Hat piece you guys should lean back, and do the right thing and get it in there with the right resource push, is that kind of how it's evolving, because that seems like what's-- >> It absolutely is. This goes beyond just EtsyD. The really rad thing is that I think it's safe to say that there is no part of the CoreOS portfolio that really isn't getting open sourced. You can kind of read into that what you will but, it meant that there was no technology that was getting left behind, nad that our users who really felt passionately about pieces of software, again, we're going to be able to have that utility. >> Stu Miniman: I think it goes back, we've been at Red Hat summits for many years and Red Hat is a hundred percent open sourced, it must be, and even I go back to Polvey and yourself and Brandon, all of the tools at CoreOS were creating is, they were all going to be open sourced tools that you will be involved in. I guess William, a good point to bring you into the conversation, Serverless, and fully open source, if not been have you thought about it at least for the last couple of years so, before we get into the Knative, give us the Red Hat positioning, where does Serverless fit into the architecture? And then we'd love to tease out all of the Knative discussion. >> Absolutely. For us, Serverless then is a lot about the user experience, and how we can simplify how developers can leverage technology such as Itsiu and service meshes and everything around the developer experience on top of Kuberneties. Serverless can deliver that and a lot of what we believe is that, it should not be then tied too much to functions because we can do that for functions, but we can do that for any class of applications actually running on top of the platform, and that's a lot of why we believe that Knative is this powerful interesting project going on out there right now. We already have all these different players collaborating, which is fantastic for inter-oper ability, we make sure that we can leverage that implementation on different platforms, we can run that anywhere pretty much on top of Kuberneties, and that's a big goal, to make sure that you can plug all these different parts as part of a consistent user experience there. >> Stu Miniman: Okay so we had the cube at the Google event this summer when it was announced I was at Serverless conference this year and to be honest, a lot of people were kind of scratching their heads trying to understand. Okay, Serverless and Kuberneties are going together but I'm not sure I quite get it? Give us the update where are we, when does this get baked into platforms, what can I do today, where do I learn more? >> Today, what we are offering is the three big modules as part of Knative are built, events, and serving. So it's the basic capabilities for you to build a serverless platform that, can again, work on any kind of application, not only functions, and we are at that stage. The project is very new, we are still in 0.2 release, at this point, so there's a lot of missing parts around user experience and what-not, but we are getting there, and that's where most of the focus is going on right now. But with something like events, that's a perfect opportunity for example, to integrate with all the different services we have available, let's say on Service Catalog, or through the operator's framework, for example, to connect to the applications that you are building on top of Kuberneties. That was part of the things that was missing to connect the dots when your implementing those applications, how are you going to consume events, how are you going to consume services, how those applications are going to scale? That's a lot of what we're addressing with Knative right now. >> What's the big walk away around the current event here at KubeCon? We hear maturity, great, check. A lot of people are fine in their swim lanes or whatever, their value layer, check. Clear a lot more gaps things white space start to appear, when that visibility lifts. What do you guys see the opportunities for the community, and you guys, certainly one of the big players, Red Hat, leading the way, as this ecosystem is, I mean companies I've never heard of, coming out of the woodwork. This is vibrant! There are opportunities for people to kind of, play in these white spaces. Do you guys have any thoughts on where you could give guidance to where people could jump in and create value? >> Well, there's two areas that are really fascinating to me. One is the fact that now that Kuberneties has gotten to the level of boarding infrastructure, it means that there are a lot more companies that are really comfortable saying, "we're building a top that, we don't care about what the compute layer is, because we just know". So you see a lot of organizations that are coming in, because they want to collaborate with other organizations, and see how they're using it to cross pollinate and get new ideas. That's why you've got full retail companies like Nordstrom here, that are the local band in town, and they're happy to come and show off, and you've also got a lot of, to the second piece of that, emerging companies that are finding areas, white space that we didn't consider as the incumbance in the space, and they're providing direct value. I think that as we have seen a lot more acquisitions coming through the space, there is going to be a lot of opportunity for the organization that has that five, ten, fifty million dollar idea to come in, build it quickly, know that it works on top of Kuberneties, and then be able to port it to Enterprise software that runs on a local cluster or across clouds. >> John Furrier: So new business model innovations are coming out of it as well., hence opportunities. It's okay to have a fifty million dollar business. >> Yes. >> Not bad, and could be acquired as well, some other value there. Okay, Microservice is hard to manage. Guys, talk about this dynamic. This is one of the things you guys really work hard to address, I know. We hear a lot about it. Porting to Microservice, "Hey, I'm in Enterprise! We should move from our Red Hat Linux implementation, to full cloud, and then it's going to go all the way to Microservices." Well, what the hell is Microservices? So again, this is kind of like, well I'm not saying that they're thinking that way, but this is not that easy. How do you guys make it easier? What are some of the speed bumps that customers hit? And what are the things to overcome those? What's your view on that? >> [William Oliveria] I'll talk about, first of all, how Knative is contributing to that. Again, the whole thing that we're talking about, not being tied to functions is because again, I want to leverage the serverless capabilities available in the platform for Microservices as well. And whenever you're talking about monitoring, tracing, observe-abilities, Istio comes into play, and solved that problem and connect all those different Microservices in a very nice way. With Knative, things we can improve on the user experience, so you can do that in a very easy way, when you are coming from this brown field applications when you are migrating to the cloud, when you are trying to port those applications, it's a big learning curve. You got to learn about all these different technologies. So if you can improve that user experience, so you can do what you do best, which is focus on your code, and then we can take care of a lot the complexities of building and wiring together all these different parts on the platform. We'll do that. And that's a lot of what we are doing with serverless. >> That's where the manage piece comes in, right? >> [William Oliveria] Right. >> And then the monitoring, that part of it to? >> Yeaa, well to build on top of that, there is the organizations that want to still design things the way that they've been doing it. And we've had a big focus with a project called Red Hat OpenShift Application Runtimes, or RHOAR, which it goes more in the direction of the past concept, which is a big difference between OpenShift and TechTonic, for example, and through that, a lot of the RHOAR bundles for Python and Java and Node.js kind of integrate in the concepts of distributed tracing and permethius monitoring and things like that, to make sure that you focus, again, to William's point, on building the thing that brings yuour business value and standing on the shoulders of software at the infrastructure level. >> That's great stuff and it's a lot more work to do. >> Yeah, just the last thing, I know Red Hat's been working on trying to, I don't know if you call it "templatize", but how do I make it easier for people to, I'm trying to remember the name of the term for it. >> Yeah, so it's the OpenShift Application Runtime. Having what used to be the gear in the old OpenShift realm. Which is just here is a great template, a package to start from, so that you can go in and implement the things that you care about, and really step then into, the "Okay, we know that the code's going to work okay, because we built that, we know the application platform is going to be predictable, we know that we have all of these additional hooks to manage it." So hopefully, it lowers the bar, to make it trivial to get started. >> That's awesome. Well, Redbeard and William, thanks for coming on the Cube, really appreciate it. Just quick plug, what's up next for you guys? What's on the horizon? What itch are you scratching these days? What's getting you motivated? >> The big things that's exciting for me is the fourth coming release of OpenShift 4.0, which gives me the room to shine on the GA release of all the service mesh stuff. And then, kind of in parallel, just a lot of the vector packet processing, FITO, high scale networking stuff just sends a tingle up my spine. I love keeping an eye on that >> For me we just announced a review of Knative and OpenShift as an add-on. You can just install and run that when you're on OpenShift, and like what Redbeard said, I'm looking forward for 4.0 as well, to make sure that I could plug that user experience on top of 4.0 and we are already doing a lot for the ops side, and I'd like to do that also now for our developers as well. >> Well when you're ready, we'll pop a digital cork on Twitter, let us know, we'll certainly cover it. Thanks for coming out, appreciate the insight. >> We'll bring you the insights and all the data here at KubeCon CloudNative. Of course we're the Cube, don't be confused with KubeCon, on one of our conferences coming. But only kidding, we're not going to have that. Thanks for watching day one, live coverage. Stay with us for more coverage after this short break. (techno music)

>> Let me check. (uptempo orchestral music) (uptempo techno music) >> Live, from San Francisco, it's theCUBE! Covering Red Hat Summit 2018. Brought to you by Red Hat. >> Hey welcome back everyone, we are live here with theCUBE in San Francisco, Moscone West, for Red Hat Summit 2018. I'm John Furrier, co-host of theCUBE, with John Troyer co-host, analyst this week. the TechReckoning co-founder. Our next two guests are Ashesh Badani, vice president and general manager of OpenShift Platform and Alex Polvi, CEO of CoreOS, interview of the week because CoreOS now part of Red Hat. Congratulations, good to see you again. Thanks for coming on theCUBE. >> You're welcome. >> So obviously this is for us, we've been covering both of you guys pretty heavily and we've been commenting very positively around the acquisition of CoreOS. Two great companies that know open-source, pure open-source. You guys got the business model nailed down, these guys got great tech. You bring it together. So the first question is how's everyone doing? How's everyone feeling? And where's the overlap, if any and where's the fix? Explain the true fit of CoreOS. >> I'm going to start Alex, you want to jump in after. We're very excited right, so when we first had interactions with CoreOS, we knew this is going to be a great fit. The conversation we had earlier, both companies delivers in open-source, delivers in the mission center to take us forward regard to Kubernetes, as the container orchestration engine, and then being able to build out value for our customers around it. I think from our perspective, the work that both CoreOS did in advancing the community forward but also the work they've done around automation or their upgrades, management metering, charge back and so on. Being able to bring all those qualities into Red Hat is incredible. So I think the fits been good. It's been three months, I'll let Alex comment some more on that but we've been doing a lot of work from integration perspective around engineering, around product management. At Red Hat Summit this week, we reveal details around some of the converged road maps, which I can talk about some more as well. So we're feeling pretty good about it. >> Alex, your reaction. >> Yes, it's been three months. If you've studied CoreOS at all, you know everything that we do really centers around this concept of automated operations. And so by being part of Red Hat, we're starting to bring that to market in a much bigger and faster way of really accelerating it. The way the acquisition are really successful is either mutually beneficial to both companies and they accelerate the adoption of technology and that's definitely happening. We had the announcement yesterday with Red Hat CoreOS around the Linux distribution. Last week, we did the operator framework. It was very central to the work that we've been doing as part of CoreOS, and then as companies in a lot of ways is being part of Red Hat for three months now. This is what our company would have looked like if we ever just another 10 years along or whatever very similar, we're like a mini Red Hat, and now we're leaped ahead in a big way. >> And you guys done a good work. We've documented on theCUBE many times, and we were in Copenhagen last week. Now covering the operating framework but I want to get your reaction. You guys did a lot of great work on the tech side obviously, you can go into more detail but we've always been saying on theCUBE. If you try to force monetization in these emerging markets, you're optimizing behavior. And this was something that's gone on, we've seen containers. It's been well documented obviously what's happened. It's certainly a beautiful thing. Got Kubernetes now on top working together with that. If as an entrepreneur out there that are building companies. If you try to force the monetization too early, you really thinking differently. You guys stay true to it. Now we've got a good home with Red Hat. Talk about that dynamic because that was something that I know you guys faced at CoreOS and you've managed through it. Tempted probably many times to do something. Talk about the mission that you had, staying true to that and just that dynamic. It's challenging. >> Yeah, as we set out to build a company in general, there are really three operating principles. There is build a great technology to solve our mission which is to secure the internet through automated operations, build a great place to spend their days which is really about the people and the culture and so on. Why are we doing this, and the third was to make it sustainable and by that I mean to build their own money fountains, building out of the middle of our campus. And so by joining Red Hat it's we have a money fountain sitting there. (laughing) It's spewing off a ton of cash flow every single quarter that allows us to continue to do those first two things in perpetuity, and that third one is something every company needs in order to continue to execute towards the mission. And the thing that's so awesome about working with Red Hat is we're very much aligned and compatible. Red Hat's mission isn't exactly the same thing we are working but it's definitely compatible. It's like Apache and GPL are compatible. It's like that type of compatible. >> You both believe in open-source in a big way. Talk about the Red Hat perspectives. Now you got like a kid in a candy store. Openshift made a big bed with Kubernetes. You see now, you have the CoreOS, how has it changed in Red Hat internally? Things moving around actually accelerates the game a bit for you guys, and you're seeing new life being pumped into OpenStack. You're seeing clear line of sight with Kubernetes on the app side. We were just at KubeCon. A lot of people are pretty excited. There's clear lines of sight on what's defacto. What people are going to build around, and also differentiate. >> Right, so I'll start off by saying I really hope our CEO, Jim Whitehurst doesn't see this interview but if it goes off in terms of money factor. I'm currently make budget request. I think I know what's going on. >> Balance sheet, cashless now. It's in the public filings. If I see a fountain of money spewing off the thing, >> The ability to reinvest. >> This is a really good fit. (laughing) The way to say this, they have a great business model. >> Yeah, yeah. >> Some of us will make money, some of us will spend the money. Some of us will spend the money, it will work out well. (laughing) >> It's a great win. It's a great win. It obviously accelerates the plans. The commercialization is already there with Red Hat. This is just a good thing for everybody but the impact of you guys accelerating, just seeing OpenShift. You can boil it down to the impact of Red Hat. What is the impact? >> So in all seriousness, I think the focus for us really has been about there is so much complimentary work that's been going on with the CoreOS team that we're bringing into OpenShift, and to Red Hat in general that accelerates everything that you're seeing. You saw some amazing announcements happen this week with regard to our partnership with Microsoft and getting OpenShift out and Azure, and joint support offering. The work we're doing with IBM to get IBM middleware as well as IBM Cloud Private support integrated with OpenShift. The work that Alex referred to around automation, being able to bring that to our customers. We see all the excitement around that front as well so we want to take all Techtonic work that has been going on at CoreOS, then move that to OpenShift. Carry forward the community that CoreOS built around Container Linux, and actually inject a lot those ideas into that Linux, our flagship technology. Bring that passion and energy to bear as well, and then carry forward a lot of the other projects that they have. For example, the Quake Container Registry, that's extremely popular. Carry that forward, support our customers to use that both stand alone integrated with the OpenShift platform. Other projects like FCB that Alex has been talking about which is the underpinnings of Kubernetes plus running worldwide. So all of those things, we can bring forward, and then all the advancements that were made in place by CoreOS as they're working towards their money fountain, just plug that right into it. >> And just as a point of reference, Brendan Burns flew in yesterday. Microsoft Build is going up so he left their own conference to come down here. >> As did Scar Guthrie, right? >> That's a great testament. This is the testament. They're coming down, really laying down support. This is a real big deal. This is not a fake deal, it's real. >> And so I want to talk a little bit about specifics of the timeline, the road maps. Sometimes with these mergers or acquisitions, it's well the technology will be incorporated at some point, and then it goes away to die and you never see it again. And then the people all leave, and then you ask what was going on. But here, you actually have, I was great. You were talking to me. You have some specific timelines and we'll start to see some of the Techtonics Stack in OpenShift fairly soon. >> Yes, absolutely so the acquisition was announced three months ago and we said at that time that by Red Hat Summit, we'll lay out for you a road map and so we're now starting to do that. We put out release of some materials around some details with regard to how that's coming out. We have detailed sessions going on at Red Hat Summit around the integration plans between Red Hat, OpenShift and CoreOS with a few specific areas with regard to OpenShift. You'll start seeing the earliest versions if you will of the work that's being done. This summer, we'll deliver the full road map to you there by the end of this calendar year. With regard to, for example pieces like the Quake Container Registry that's being made available and being sold now as we speak. Customers can go get that, and we want to make sure no customer is left behind. Right, that's a principle we put out. And with regard to supporting any existing customers on Techtonic or the Container Linux space, we're doing that as we're working to integrate them into the Red Hat portfolio. Can you talk a little bit about the decision for Red Hat's atomic coast and Container Linux? Now re-named again, CoreOS. That was one of the seminal inventions that you all made as you started the company. I think it had some brilliant ideas again about security and the operational aspects but can you talk about some of those technologies and the decisions made there? >> Yeah, like I said, the acquisition of CoreOS Red Hat was about saying look what can we take that CoreOS has been doing to accelerate both work and community but also what could be doing to deliver this technology to customers. So the goal was we'll take all the atomic and the word that's been going on there have that be superseded by the work that's coming out of CoreOS Container Linux carry the community forward. Release a version of that called Red Hat CoreOS and in its initial form make that actually an underlying environment to run OpenShift in. Okay so for customers who want the automation that Alex talked about earlier. They made that available both at the underlying platform. Make it available in OpenShift platform itself via the work that's come from Techtonic, and then ultimately, Alex will talk about this some more through operators. So trusted operations from ISP or third party software that would run on the platform. All right so now if you will, we'll have full stack automation all the way through. OpenShift also support Red Hat Linux, a traditional environment for the thousands of customers that we have globally. Over a period of time, you should expect to see much of the work that's going on Red Hat CoreOS find its way into it as well. So I think this just benefits all around for us both in the near term as well as long. >> And Red Hat Container certification, where does that fit into all this? >> Yeah, a great question, so what we announced maybe was, actually was two years ago was a Container certification program. Last year, we spent some time talking about the health of those containers, and being able to provide that to customers. And this year, we're talking about trusted operations around those containers. That carries forward, we've got hundreds of ISPs that have built certified containers around it, and now with the operator framework, we've had, I think it's four ISPs demonstrating previews of their operators working with our platform as well as 60 more that are committed to building ISP operators that will be certified again. >> So people are certified in general, pretty much. I think we're very excited. The fact that we went to KubeCon last week, announced that the operating framework have been based on the ideas that the CoreOS team has been working on for at least two years. Making that available to the community and then saying for the ISPs that want a path to market. Going back to the money fountain again for the ISP that want to pass through market which is pretty much all of them. We also have the ability to do that so give them an opportunity to make sure that as wide as possible some adoption of the software at the same time help with commercialization. >> Can you guys share your definition of operator because I saw the announcement but we we're on a broader definition when we see the DevOps movement going the next level. It's all about automation and security, you mentioned that admin roles are being automated in a way to see more of an operator function within enterprise and emerging service providers. So the role operator now takes on two meanings. It's a software developer. It also is a network operator, it's also a service, so what is that, how do you guys view that role because if this continues, you're going to have automation. More administrator is going to be self healing, all this stuff is going to go on. Potentially operations is now the developers and IT all blurring together. How do you guys define the word operator in the future state? >> Well I know the scenario of great interest to you. >> So operator is the term for the piece of software that implements the automated operations. And so automated operations, what is that? Well that's what sets apart, the way I think about it is what sets apart a cloud provider verses a hosting provider. It's a set of software that really runs the thing for you and so if we're going to get into specific Kubernetes lingo, it would be an application specific controller. That's a piece of software that's implements the automated operations. And automated operation is a software that gives you that simplicity of cloud. It's at the core of a database as a service. It's both hosting but also automated operations. Those two things together make up a cloud service and that software piece is what we're decoupling from the hosting providers for the first time and allowing any open-source project or ISP brings the simplicity of cloud but in any environment. And that's what the operator is a piece of software that actually goes and implements that. >> So a microservices framework, this fits in pretty nicely. How do you see obviously? >> Microservices, there's all these terms. Microservice is more of an architecture than anything but it's saying look, there's these basic things that every operations team has to go and do. You have to go and install something, you have to upgrade it, you have to back it up, when it crashes in the middle of the night, get it going again. A lot of these things, the best practices for how you do them are all common. There's no ingenuity in it. And for those things, we can now because of Kubernetes write software that just automates it, and this was not possible five years ago. You couldn't write those software. There were things like configuration management systems and stuff like that that would allow companies to build their own custom versions of this. But to build a generic piece of software that knows how to run application like Prometheus or a database or so on. It wasn't possible to write that and that's what the first four or five years of CoreOS was is making it possible, that's why you saw all these mat and new open-source projects being built. But once it was possible it was like let's start leveraging that. You saw the first operator come out about a year ago, and I think it was our ATD operator was the first one, and we started talking about this as a concept. And now we're releasing operator framework which is from all the learnings of building the first couple. We now made a generic, so anybody can go and do it, and as part of Red Hat, we're now bringing it to the whole ISP ecosystem. So the whole plan to make automated operations ubiquitous is still well underway. >> I'd love to extend that conversation though to the operator, the person. >> Right. I think you and your team brought the perspective of the operational excellence right to the table. A lot of cloud has been driven by the role of developer and DevOps but I've always felt like well wait a minute operators the people who use to be known as IT insisted they had a lot to bring to the table too about security and about keeping things running, and about compliance and about all that good stuff. So can you talk a little bit as you see the community emerging, and as you see all these folks here. How do you talk to people who want to understand what their role is going to be with all this automation in keeping the clouds running? >> Computers use to be people too. (laughing) But we're not going to completely automate away everything because there's still parts of this wildly complex system that justifies whole conferences of thousands of people that require a whole lot of human ingenuity. What we're doing is saying let's not like do the part that is the fire drill in the middle of the might that keeps you from making forward progress. The typical role of an operations person today is just fighting fires of mundane things that don't actually add a lot of value to the business. In fact, this guy is difficult because you only get brought up when things are on fire. You never get an praise when things are going well. And so what we want to do is help the operations folks put out those fires like the security updates. Let's just roll those out automatically. The way you do those across all organizations does not need to be special and unique but they're really critical to do right. >> Well it's just automate that stuff away and let the operations team focus on moving the business forward. The parts that require the human spirit to actually go and do, and if we get to a point where a CEO of a company is like, wow, I can not come up with a new vision for this imitative 'cause my operations team are just so fast at influencing them. Then we have to start worrying about operations people's job but I don't see that happening for a very long time. >> And no one is going to be sitting around twiddling their thumbs either. >> Let me just extend that point a little bit. The whole point of operators is to encapsulate human knowledge that ISPs have and bring that in the platform and automate it. So the challenge that we've had is an operations person is required to know a lot about a lot. So the question then really is how can we at least take some of what's already known by people and be able to replicate that and that allows for every one to move forward. I think that's just forward-- >> Well, there's a bigger picture beyond that, so I agree but there is also scale. With cloud, you have scale issues. So with scale automation is a beautiful thing 'cause the fire has also grown exponentially too so you can't be operating like this. Scale matters, super. >> The reason that this stuff was invented at Google initially was not because of Google's high career per second. Is that they were, to build the application they're building required so many servers that you couldn't hire enough operations people without writing software to automate it. So they were forced to custom design the system because they had so many servers to run to build the software that they wanted to build. And other companies are just now getting to that point because every company is going through a digital transformation. They have to have thousands of servers just to run their applications. There's no way you're just going to hire the operations staff to go and do it all by hand. You have to write software to turn the operations people into mech warriors of running servers. You need to wrap them in automation in order to scale that. >> At KubeCon, she made a comment that all those operations folks at Google are software developers. >> Brand engineers. >> Brand engineering, so they're not Ops guys just pushing buttons and provisioning gear and what not. They're actually writing code. You bring up the Google piece, the other piece that we heard at KubeCon. We hear this consistently that this is now a new way to do software development. So when a former Googler went to work for another company, left Google. She went in and she said, "Oh my God, you guys don't do. "You don't use board?" To her, she's like how do you write software? So she was like young and went out in the real world and was like wait a minute, you don't do this? So this is a new model in software development at scale with these new capabilities. >> I think so and I think what's really important is the work we're doing with regards to an ecosystem perspective to help folks. So one of the top things I hear from customers all the time is this sounds fantastic. Everyone's talking about DevOps or microservices or wanting to run Kubernetes at scale. Do I have the skills? Can I keep up with the change that's in place and how do I continue going forward around that? So we announced at Red Hat Summit Managed offerings from let's say Atos and DXC where you've got goals to integrate us helping folks, or companies like Extension T systems. The CEO came and spoke today about the work we're doing with them to help connected cars, and those applications be rolled out quick and fast. I think it's going to take a village to get us to where we want to because the rate of change is so fast around all of these areas and it's not slowing down that we'll have to ensure there's more automation and then there's more enablement that's going on for our customers. >> So some clarity, can you guys comment on your reaction to obviously we've seen OpenStack has done over the years and now with well Containers, now Kubernetes. You seeing at least two ecosystems clearly identified. Application developers, cloud native and then I would call under the hood infrastructure, you got OpenStack. Almost it clarifies where people can actually focus on real problems that the Kubernetes needs. So how has the Container, maturation of Containers with Kubernetes clarified the role of the community? If this continues with automation, you can almost argue that the clarity happens everywhere. Can you comment on how you see that happening? Is it happening or is it just observation that's misguided? >> I think we're getting better with regard to fit for a purpose or fit for use case. All right, so if you start thinking about the earliest days of OpenStack. OpenStack is going to be AWS in a box, and then you realize well that's not a practical way of thinking about what a community can do a build at scale. And so when you start thinking about a Word appropriate use case for this. Now you start betting if you will, a set of scales, you set expectations around how to make that successful. I think we'll go through the same if we haven't already or even going through it with regard to Kubernetes. So not every company in the world can run Managed World call. DYI Kubernetes, don't many companies will start with that. And so the question is how do we get to the point where there's balance around it and then be able to take advantage of the work? For example, companies like Red Hat work for us was doing to help accelerate that path 'cause to the point Alex was trying to make is the value for them being able to keep up with the core release of Kubernetes? And every time a bug shows up to go off and be able to fix and patch it, and watch that or is the value building the next set of applications set on top of platforms. >> That's great, well congratulations guys. Thanks for coming on theCUBE. Appreciate the insight. Congratulations on the three months into Red Hat. Good fit, and enjoy the rest of the show. Thanks for coming on, I appreciate it. >> Thanks. >> Live from Red Hat Summit, it's theCUBE's coverage here of Red Hat and all the innovation going on out in the open. We're here in the middle of, we open the floor with Moscone West with live coverage. Stay with us for more after this short break. (uptempo techno music)