>> Announcer: "theCUBE" presents KubeCon and CloudNativeCon Europe 2022 brought to you by Red Hat, the Cloud Native Computing Foundation and its ecosystem partners. >> Welcome to Valencia, Spain and KubeCon and CloudNativeCon Europe 2022. I'm Keith Townsend, my co-host, Paul Gillin, Senior Editor Enterprise Architecture for SiliconANGLE. We're going to talk, or continue to talk to amazing people. The coverage has been amazing, but also the city of Valencia is beautiful. I have to eat a little crow, I landed and I saw the convention center, Paul, have you got out and explored the city at all? >> Absolutely, my first reaction to Valencia when we were out in this industrial section was, "This looks like Cincinnati." >> Yes. >> But then I got on the bus second day here, 10 minutes to downtown, another world, it's almost a middle ages flavor down there with these little winding streets and just absolutely gorgeous city. >> Beautiful city. I compared it to Charlotte, no disrespect to Charlotte, but this is an amazing city. Naina Singh, Principal Product Manager at Red Hat, and Roland Huss, also Principal Product Manager at Red Hat. We're going to talk a little serverless. I'm going to get this right off the bat. People get kind of feisty when we call things like Knative serverless. What's the difference between something like a Lambda and Knative? >> Okay, so I'll start. Lambda is, like a function as a server, right? Which is one of the definitions of serverless. Serverless is a deployment platform now. When we introduced serverless to containers through Knative, that's when the serverless got revolutionized, it democratized serverless. Lambda was proprietary-based, you write small snippets of code, run for a short duration of time on demand, and done. And then Knative which brought serverless to containers, where all those benefits of easy, practical, event-driven, running on demand, going up and down, all those came to containers. So that's where Knative comes into picture. >> Yeah, I would also say that Knative is based on containers from the very beginning, and so, it really allows you to run arbitrary workloads in your container, whereas with Lambda you have only a limited set of language that you can use and you have a runtime contract there which is much easier with Knative to run your applications, for example, if it's coming in a language that is not supported by Lambda. And of course the most important benefit of Knative is it's run on top of Kubernetes, which allows you- >> Yes. >> To run your serverless platform on any other Kubernetes installation, so I think this is one of the biggest thing. >> I think we saw about three years ago there was a burst of interest around serverless computing and really some very compelling cost arguments for using it, and then it seemed to die down, we haven't heard a lot about serverless, and maybe I'm just not listening to the right people, but what is it going to take for serverless to kind of break out and achieve its potential? >> Yeah, I would say that really the big advantage of course of Knative in that case is that you can scale down to zero. I think this is one of the big things that will really bring more people onto board because you really save a lot of money with that if your applications are not running when they're not used. Yeah, I think also that, because you don't have this vendor log in part thing, when people realize that you can run really on every Kubernete platform, then I think that the journey of serverless will continue. >> And I will add that the event-driven applications, there hasn't been enough buzz around them yet. There is, but serverless is going to bring a new lease on life on them, right? The other thing is the ease of use for developers. With Knative, we are introducing a new programming model, the functions, where you don't even have to create containers, it would do create containers for you. >> So you create the servers, but not the containers? >> Right now, you create the containers and then you deploy them in a serverless fashion using Knative. But the container creation was on the developers, and functions is going to be the third component of Knative that we are developing upstream, and Red Hat donated that project, is going to be where code to cloud capability. So you bring your code and everything else will be taken care of, so. >> So, I'd call a function or, it's funny, we're kind of circular with this. What used to be, I'd write a function and put it into a container, this server will provide that function not just call that function as if I'm developing kind of a low code no code, not no code, but a low code effort. So if there's a repetitive thing that the community wants to do, you'll provide that as a predefined function or as a server. >> Yeah, exactly. So functions really helps the developer to bring their code into the container, so it's really kind of a new (indistinct) on top of Knative- >> on top op. >> And of course, it's also a more opinionated approach. It's really more closer coming to Lambda now because it also comes with a programming model, which means that you have certain signature that you have to implement and other stuff. But you can also create your own templates, because at the end what matters is that you have a container at the end that you can run on Knative. >> What kind of applications is serverless really the ideal platform? >> Yeah, of course the ideal application is a HTTP-based web application that has no state and that has a very non-uniform traffic shape, which means that, for example, if you have a business where you only have spikes at certain times, like maybe for Super Bowl or Christmas, when selling some merchandise like that, then you can scale up from zero very quickly at a arbitrary high depending on the load. And this is, I think, the big benefit over, for example, Kubernetes Horizontal Pod Autoscaling where it's more like indirect measures of value scaling based on CPR memory, but here, it directly relates one to one to the traffic that is coming in to concurrent request. Yeah, so this helps a lot for non-uniform traffic shapes that I think this has become one of the ideal use case. >> Yeah. But I think that is one of the most used or defined one, but I do believe that you can write almost all applications. There are some, of course, that would not be the right load, but as long as you are handling state through external mechanism. Let's say, for example you're using database to save the state, or you're using physical volume amount to save the state, it increases the density of your cluster because when they're running, the containers would pop up, when your application is not running, the container would go down, and the resources can be used to run any other application that you want to us, right? >> So, when I'm thinking about Lambda, I kind of get the event-driven nature of Lambda. I have a S3 bucket, and if a S3 event is driven, then my functions as the server will start, and that's kind of the listening servers. How does that work with Knative or a Kubernetes-based thing? 'Cause I don't have an event-driven thing that I can think of that kicks off, like, how can I do that in Kubernetes? >> So I'll start. So it is exactly the same thing. In Knative world, it's the container that's going to come up and your servers in the container, that will do the processing of that same event that you are talking. So let's say the notification came from S3 server when the object got dropped, that would trigger an application. And in world of Kubernetes, Knative, it's the container that's going to come up with the servers in it, do the processing, either find another servers or whatever it needs to do. >> So Knative is listening for the event, and when the event happens, then Knative executes the container. >> Exactly. >> Basically. >> So the concept of Knative source which is kind of adapted to the external world, for example, for the S3 bucket. And as soon as there is an event coming in, Knative will wake up that server, will transmit this event as a cloud event, which is another standard from the CNCF, and then when the server is done, then the server spins down again to zero so that the server is only running when there are events, which is very cost effective and which people really actually like to have this kind of way of dynamic scaling up from zero to one and even higher like that. >> Lambda has been sort of synonymous with serverless in the early going here, is Knative a competitor to Lambda, is it complimentary? Would you use the two together? >> Yeah, I would say that Lambda is a offering from AWS, so it's a cloud server there. Knative itself is a platform, so you can run it in the cloud, and there are other cloud offerings like from IBM, but you can also run it on-premise for example, that's the alternative. So you can also have hybrid set scenarios where you really can put one part into the cloud, the other part on-prem, and I think there's a big difference in that you have a much more flexibility and you can avoid this kind of Windows login compared to AWS Lambda. >> Because Knative provides specifications and performance tests, so you can move from one server to another. If you are on IBM offering that's using Knative, and if you go to a Google offering- >> A google offering. >> That's on Knative, or a Red Hat offering on Knative, it should be seamless because they're both conforming to the same specifications of Knative. Whereas if you are in Lambda, there are custom deployments, so you are only going to be able to run those workloads only on AWS. >> So KnativeCon, co-located event as part of KubeCon, I'm curious as to the level of effort in the user interaction for deploying Knative. 'Cause when I think about Lambda or cloud-run or one of the other functions as a servers, there is no backend that I have to worry about. And I think this is where some of the debate becomes over serverless versus some other definition. What's the level of lifting that needs to be done to deploy Knative in my Kubernetes environment? >> So if you like... >> Is this something that comes as based part of the OpenShift install or do I have to like, you know, I have to... >> Go ahead, you answer first. >> Okay, so actually for OpenShift, it's a code layer product. So you have this catalog of operator that you can choose from, and OpenShift Serverless is one part of that. So it's really kind of a one click install where you have also get a default configuration, you can flexibly configure it as you like. Yeah, we think that's a good user experience and of course you can go to these cloud offerings like Google Cloud one or IBM Code Engine, they just have everything set up for you. And the idea of other different alternatives, you have (indistinct) charts, you can install Knative in different ways, you also have options for the backend systems. For example, we mentioned that when an event comes in, then there's a broker in the middle of something which dispatches all the events to the servers, and there you can have a different backend system like Kafka or AMQ. So you can have very production grade messaging system which really is responsible for delivering your events to your servers. >> Now, Knative has recently, I'm sorry, did I interrupt you? >> No, I was just going to say that Knative, when we talk about, we generally just talk about the serverless deployment model, right? And the Eventing gets eclipsed in. That Eventing which provides this infrastructure for producing and consuming event is inherent part of Knative, right? So you install Knative, you install Eventing, and then you are ready to connect all your disparate systems through Events. With CloudEvents, that's the specification we use for consistent and portable events. >> So Knative recently admitted to the, or accepted by the Cloud Native Computing Foundation, incubating there. Congratulations, it's a big step. >> Thank you. >> Thanks. >> How does that change the outlook for Knative adoption? >> So we get a lot of support now from the CNCF which is really great, so we could be part of this conference, for example which was not so easy before that. And we see really a lot of interest and we also heard before the move that many contributors were not, started into looking into Knative because of this kind of non being part of a mutual foundation, so they were kind of afraid that the project would go away anytime like that. And we see the adoption really increases, but slowly at the moment. So we are still ramping up there and we really hope for more contributors. Yeah, that's where we are. >> CNCF is almost synonymous with open source and trust. So, being in CNCF and then having this first KnativeCon event as part of KubeCon, we are hoping, and it's a recent addition to CNCF as well, right? So we are hoping that this events and these interviews, this will catapult more interest into serverless. So I'm really, really hopeful and I only see positive from here on out for Knative. >> Well, I can sense the excitement. KnativeCon sold out, congratulations on that. >> Thank you. >> I can talk about serverless all day, it's a topic that I really love, it's a fascinating way to build applications and manage applications, but we have a lot more coverage to do today on "theCUBE" from Spain. From Valencia, Spain, I'm Keith Townsend along with Paul Gillin, and you're watching "theCUBE," the leader in high-tech coverage. (gentle upbeat music)