>> Live, from Barcelona, Spain, it's the CUBE, covering CISCO Live 2018, brought to you by CISCO, Veeam, and the Cube's ecosystem partners. Welcome back, I'm Stu Miniman, and this is the CUBE's coverage of CISCO Live 2018 in Barcelona. You know, I'm a networking guy by background, but there's certain people in the industry that really I've gone to to learn, been really thrilled that I've had the opportunity to get to know, and every once in awhile I get to bring them to our audience, and really happy to bring back to the program Ivan Pepelnjak, from Slovenia, blogger, author, webinar, generally, you know, that network guy that those of us who watch the industry know. >> That grumpy networking guy. >> Ah, ya know, aren't most networking people at least online at least a little bit grumpy? And when you meet 'em in person, though, it's a slightly different experience, so thanks for joining us. >> Ah, thank you for inviting me. >> All right, so 2013 was the last time that we actually go to do one of these in person. >> Ivan: That's true. >> So networking, it's all the same, right? >> Ivan: It is. >> I mean we're probably still working on 10 gig rollout, ah, maybe 25 or 50 gig, speeds and feeds, and, ya know, oh, okay, ya know, IPV 6, I think we're kind of getting there, lots of other acronyms. We could talk awhile. But really, what's been some of the big things that you've been looking at? What are customers actually doing, and what are customers thinking of that you've been playing with? >> Well, it's amazing how little has changed. >> People are still talking about SDN like that's the big thing. No one has delivered on that apart from some point products like VMware, NSX, or CISCO ACI. Cloud is still the thing that will happen next year to most companies. We hear how 90% of all the companies that participate in some survey are using Cloud. And then the next question I'll ask is, "Well, is this Office 365, "or is this something more?" And they go like, "Well the survey "didn't differentiate on that." So thank you. >> Yeah, but, yeah look. The SDN, a friend of mine said SDN stands for Still Does Nothing. That being said, ACI, NSX, there's customers using it. >> Ivan: Oh, absolutely. >> It has not totally transformed the industry like they said. Cloud, I've yet to find a company that's not doing some SAS, and unless you have some regulation or things like that, you at least have some sandbox that you're doing some public Cloud. >> Ivan: Absolutely. >> But, absolutely people, they still have data centers, despite... >> Ivan: Well, it's a... >> It might not be their own building anymore. I was just talking to a service provider and the like, but yeah, I mean, the more things change the more things stay the same, right? >> Absolutely. Well yeah, we do see people moving to colos or, they would build their stuff somewhere else, or whatever, but it's amazing how much interest I am still getting in data center design courses, so there are still zillions of people who think that that is important, and yes, we all know we'll go to the Cloud, but everyone has his own hurdles, and so I think that eventually everyone will get to some sort of hybrid Cloud, where some stuff will be there, and some stuff legacy whatever will be here, and we'll have to live with that forever. >> Yeah, I mean, those of us we think back, I remember when this wave came, it was like, well, remember the XSPs in the 90s? There were two reasons why it failed. Number one, there wasn't enough network, and number two, ah, security. Well, you fast forward to, you know, two decades, and the network's gotten way better. I've got great speeds, and stuff like that, but you know physics is still a factor- >> Ivan: Well, yeah. >> And security is even more of an issue today than it was 20 years ago, I think. >> This started as a joke, but it is becoming more and more true. If you move to the Cloud, your security actually improves. >> Stu: Right. >> Because they have some security and you had none before. (both laugh) >> I at least get to rethink my security. >> Yeah. >> When I make some transformation. >> No, and they have the basics right. >> Right. >> Like physical access control, multi-tenant separation, encryption, trunk authentication. They get those things right, because otherwise they would be out of business. >> Okay, so we spent like more than a decade with how virtualization in networking. Have we gotten most of that at least reasonably well now? >> There are still people who don't get that ethernet was designed to be used on a single cable. So they still think that stretching a single ethernet across wide distances is a great idea, and everyone is still letting them get away with that. >> Yeah. >> Fortunately the Cloud vendors aren't buying. So if you want to move to Amazon, Google, whoever else, you have to redesign your applications and make them work correctly. So, eventually this thing will die, but it's like COBOL and mainframes, it will be there forever. >> Yeah, I mean, we've been saying for a few years on the Cube now that the challenge of our time is really distributed architectures, and of course they have a huge impact on networking, so how's the industry doing? How would you rate, you know, say we're here at CISCO Live, you know, how are they doing helping customers with these challenges? >> Most of them don't. >> I mean, if you look at a typical enterprise application, it still isn't developed for a distributed environment. Yeah, they use three tiers of servers, like always, but then they try to cope by solving all the problems in the ops phase, when they deploy stuff. And that's the biggest problem we are facing today. We are not changing the development processes and paradigms. >> Well, we're actually here in the Dev Net zone. I mean, I give CISCO kudos. Last time I came to CISCO Live was 2009. There weren't, we didn't talk about developers. >> Really? >> Everybody was, you know, doing plug fests, and getting their latest certification, but they're trying to embrace the developers more. There seem to be more of them here. >> Yeah. >> That boundary between network operator and developer, do you see? You know, is there communication, or are the network guys still stuck in a closet somewhere not talking to anybody? >> Well, there are two types of challenges. The first type of challenge is that the network guy in particular, but ops teams in general, are still not invited to the table when new stuff is discussed. So, the application developers dream up something based on their best knowledge. I mean, they're not evil or anything. They just don't know the operational impact of their decision. And because the networking security virtualization people are not at the table, then they have to cope with whatever these guys dream up in isolation. I'm never blaming them, because, you know, we should education them, and we are not doing that. >> Yeah. >> So anyone who manages to bring security, networking, and storage people in when the application architecture is being designed is my hero. But there are only few of them. And the other challenge is that the networking people don't realize that their world has changed. That they can't manually provision VLANs the way they've been doing for the last 20 years, and it's amazing once they get it, once they start simple automation stuff, how creative they become. What types of problems they solve. They don't have the shackles of CLI anymore. I shouldn't be saying that. (both laugh) I'm the old CLI junkie. But it's amazing how much can be done once you realize that you don't have to do everything manually. >> Yeah, CISCO's, you know, not shy about putting out strong visions. Marketing is definitely part of what they do. And the keynote this morning said it's a new era, and new infrastructure, powered by intent, informed by context. It sounded like a nice message, but this whole intent-based networking, what's your take on it? Is this, you know, are we going to come back five years from now and talk about intent based like we did SDN? Or, you know, what's your take? >> Well, let's keep in mind that this is all hype. What we're really talking about is an orchestration system with an abstraction layer. 'Cause first, it's really hard to define what intent based is, because there's no good definition. But there is a definition in programming which differentiates between declarative programming and imperative programming. And if we use declarative programming as something which could be intent based, that thing says, well, I don't tell the machine, or whatever, the system, how to do things. I just tell it what to do. And if you take a look at that from that perspective, then you figure out that every device configuration is an expression of your intent. >> Right. >> You never tell the device how to work. >> Yeah. >> You just tell the device what to do. >> Right. It's interesting, Ivan. I think back, you know, we used to manage individual boxes. Then we kind of created a little bit more pools, and the challenge they see right now is with the explosion of device, we're not going to have time to talk about all the IOT edge piece and everything, but there's no way an admin or a team of admins are going to be able to help there, so I need to infuse, I hate that, the ML, AI, choose your buzzword of choice, though, the machines need to be able to manage that a little bit more, you know, autonomous networks or something they (mumbles). I understand you're skeptical, so how do we get there, or, you know, otherwise, this whole label crap. >> There are two, there are three totally different things here. The first one, I totally agree with you that we should view networks as a single entity. Configuring boxes is stupid, and it's like, these admins don't do that. Well, some still do. They get the results they deserve. So, we should start thinking about network-wide data models which are then translated into device intent, which is really device configuration. And that makes absolute sense. But remember what I said. This is just a glorified orchestration system with an abstraction layer. The second problem is machine learning. Some of the things we are dealing with have physical limitations, like the speed of light, or the number of things you can put into a hardware forwarding table. Once you're faced with those physical limitations, it's like, you know, self-driving cars, yeah, they are self driving, but they cannot go 300 miles per hour because laws of physics. So, it's one thing to say, well, I have these infinite resources and I can learn how to play Go in eight hours. >> Right. >> And it's a completely different thing to say now I will figure out how to deal with my network, which has this physical limitations. And also, you know, whenever I hear about these autonomous distributed thingees, we have routing protocols. They have been autonomous and distributed and self healing for decades, and we didn't call them machine learning or artificial intelligence. And, finally, once you get to the bottom of it, and you're faced with all those physical limitations, and now, let's say you want to solve a simple problem, which is, how do I optimize the use of my network? You do some research. You figure out that this problem has been solved 20 years ago. There are companies with commercial products that have solved this problem. It's just that no one is using them because they are too expensive, because what you can save by using them doesn't offset the cost that these people had to invest into R and D to make this work. So, machine learning, yeah. Can you make it cheaper? I don't think so. >> All right, so, Ivan, I want to give you the last word. >> Mm-hmm. >> Grumpy networking, what do you look forward to the most at this show, and any final anecdotes you want to share, before we have to wrap? >> Well, the one thing I am looking forward is to see people to start automate their networks. To jump over that mental barrier, and when they break through it, it's amazing how many success stories you get. So I know a number of networking engineers who were on my automation course, and six months later, they write me saying, "Now I have this thing in production, "and we cut down the site deployment "from three days to five minutes." When I read emails like that, it's like, "You're my hero." >> Excellent, well I love it. For a grumpy person, you sure sound a little bit of an optimist about what some of the people come in and get this. Maybe a realist is more right. Ivan Pepelnjak, really appreciate you joining us. We'll be back with lots more coverage from CISCO Live 2018 from Barcelona. I'm Stu Miniman. You're watching the Cube. (the Cube jingle)

>>from >>around the >>globe, it's the cube >>with digital coverage of >>IBM think 2021 >>brought to >>you by IBM >>everybody welcome back to the cubes, continuous coverage of IBM think 2021 the virtual edition, my name is Dave Volonte and we're gonna talk about observe ability front and center for devops and developers, things are really changing. We're going from monitoring and logs and metrics and just this mess and now we're bringing in a I and machine intelligence and with us is Pablo Baron, who is the Ceo of inst ana, which is an IBM company that IBM acquired november of 2020. Pablo great to see you. Thanks for joining us from Munich. >>Thanks for having me. Thanks a lot. >>You're very welcome. So you know, I always love to talk to founders and co founders and try to understand sort of why they started their companies and congratulations on the exit. That's awesome. After 55 I'm sure grinding but relatively short years. Why did you guys start in stana? And what were some of the trends that you saw in that you're seeing now in the observe ability space? >>Yeah, that's a very good question. So, um, the journey began ah, as we worked in the company called code centric, the majority of the founders and uh, we actually specialized in troubleshooting uh, well, real hard customer performance problems. We used all different kinds of A PM solutions for that. You know, we, we've built expertise like collectively maybe 300 years in the whole company. So we would go from one um, adventure into the other and see customers suffer and help them, you know, overcome this trouble. At some point we started seeing architectures coming up that were not well covered by the classic KPM sellers, like people went after this. Sudha, Sudha, Sudha virtualization all in containers, you know, just dropping random workloads into container running this maybe in cabinet as well. Not not actually not 56 ago, but years ago. But you get the point, we started with the heavy continues container ization and we've seen that a classic A PM solution that is heavily, you know, like machinery rented and and some of them you've encountered by the number of CPU etcetera etcetera. They were very well suited for this. Plus all of the workloads are so dynamic. They keep coming and going. You cannot really, you know, place your agent there that is not adopting to change continuously. We've seen this coming and we really, we've seen the trouble that we cannot really support the customers properly. So after looking around, we just said, hey, uh, I think it's time to just implement a new one. Right? So we started that adventure with the idea of a constant change, with the idea of everything is containers, with idea of everything goes towards glove needed. People just run random uh workloads of all different versions that are linked altogether than this. Whole microservices trend came up where people would just break down their monoliths and resilience of literally very small components that could be deployed independently. Everything keeps changing all the time. The classic solution cannot keep up with that. >>So let me pick it up from there if I can. So it's interesting. Your timing is quite amazing because as you mentioned, it really wasn't kubernetes when you started in the middle part of last decade. You know, containers have been around for a long time, but kubernetes weren't, it wasn't mainstream back then. So you had some foresight uh and and the market has just come right into your vision but but maybe talk a little bit about the way A. P. M. Used to work. It was, I started to talk about this. It was metrics, it was traces, it was logs, it was make your eyes bleed type of type of stuff. Um, and maybe you can talk about how you guys are different and how you're accommodating the rapid changes in the market today. >>Right? So well there is very, very many um cases this. So first of all we always have seen that the work that you should not be doing by hand. I mean we already said that you should not be doing this and you should be automating as much as possible. We see this everywhere in the industry that everything gets more and more automated. We want to animate through the whole continuous delivery cycle. Unfortunately monitoring was the space that probably never was automated before installing a came into place. So our idea was, hey, just just get rid of the unnecessary work because you keep people busy with stuff they should not be doing like manually watching dashboards, setting up agents with every single software change, like adopting configuration etcetera, etcetera, etcetera. All of these things can be done automatically, you know, to very, very, very large extent. And that's what we did. We did this from the beginning, everything we approached, we, we, we think twice about can we automate, you know, the maximum out of it And only if we see that it's, it's, you know, too much an effort, etcetera. We will, we will probably not do this, but otherwise we're not, we don't do the same thing. You know, you can compromise the other right? The other aspect is, so this is different to the classic A PM world that is typically very expert heavy. The expert comes into, you know, into the project and really starts configuring etcetera, etcetera etcetera. This is this is a totally different approach the other approaches continuous change and you know, adapting to the continuous change, container comes up, you need to know what this kind of workload, what kind of work load this thing is, how it is connected to all the others. And then at some point probably it's gonna it's gonna go through the change and get a new versions etcetera etcetera. You need to capture this whole life cycle without really changing your monitoring system. Plus, if you move your workloads from the classic Monolith, through microservices on to cuba needs, you kind of transitioning, you know, it's a journey and this journey, you want to keep your business abstractions as stable as possible. The term application is nothing that you should be reconfiguring. Once you figure out what is payment in your system. This is a stable abstraction. It doesn't matter if you deliver it on containers. Doesn't matter if this is just a huge JBM that owns the whole box alone. It simply doesn't matter. So we we decoupled everything infrastructure from everything logic and uh the foundation for this is what we call the dynamic ground. It technically is pretty much a data structure. Regular graph data structure with, you know, connections in multiple directions from different notes. But the point is that we actually decompose the whole, I teach geography. This is the term I like to use because there is, there is no other its infrastructure, its topology, it is on the other hand, just, you know, same sides of the same thing. When you have a limits process, it can be HIV m it's just at the same time, it can be approached with an application, it's the same thing and given different names and this different faces of this thing can be linked with everything else in a totally different way. So we're decomposing this from the beginning of the product which allows us to to have a very deep and hierarchical understanding of problems when it appears. So we can nail it not down to a metric. That probably doesn't make sense to any user but really name the cause by look in this J. V. M, the drop wizard metric exercise that is misbehaving. This indicates that this particular piece of technology is broken and here's how it's broken. So there's a built in explanation to a problem. So um the the classic eight pm as I said, it is a very expert heavy um, territory we try to automate the expert. We have this guy called stan this is your you know, kind of virtual devoPS engineer has a I in there. It has some artificial brain, it never sleeps, it observes all of the problems. It really is an amazing guy because nobody likes him because he always tells you what's broken. You don't need to invite them to the party and give them a raise just there and conserving your systems. >>I like stand, I like stand better than fred, no offense to fred but friends of the guy in the lab coat that I have to call every time to help me fix my problems and what you're describing is end to end visibility or observe ability in terms that norm either normal people can understand or certainly stand, can understand and can automate. And that kind of leads me to this notion of anti patterns um getting software, we think of anti patterns as you know you have software hairballs and software bloat, you've got stovepipe systems, your your data guy by background and so you will understand stovepiped data systems, there's organizational examples of of of anti patterns like micromanagement or over an analysis by paralysis. If you will, how do anti patterns fit into this world? Of observe ability? What do you see? >>Oh there's many, I could write a whole book actually about that. Um let me just list a few. So first of all it is valid for any kind of automation, what you can automate you should not be doing by hand, this is a very common entire pattern. People are just doing work by hand just because the lazy word, you know like repetitive work or there is no kind of foundation to automate that whatever the reason, this is clearly an anti pattern. What we, what we also see in the monitoring space are very interesting things like normally since the problems in the observe ability monitoring space is so hard, You normally send your best people watching grants who want them to contribute to the business value rather than waste the time observing charts that like 99 of them are normal. The other aspect, of course, is what we also have seen is the other side of the spectrum where people just send total mobilizes into the, into the problem of observe ability and let them learn on the subject. Which is also not a good thing because you cannot really I mean there are so many unknown unknowns for people who are not experts in the space. They will not catch the problem. You will go through pain, right? So it's not the learning project, that's not the research from a project. This is very essential to the operation of humor, business and humanity. And there's many examples like that, >>right? Yeah. So I want to end by just sort of connecting the dots so this makes a lot of sense. And if you think about, you know, Ivan Kushner said that IBM has got to win the architectural battle for hybrid cloud. And when I think of Hybrid cloud, I think of on prem connecting to public cloud, not only the IBM public cloud but other public clouds going across clouds going to the edge, bringing open shift and kubernetes to the edge and developing new supporting new workloads. So as I. T. Is like the university keeps expanding and it gets more and more and more complicated. So to your point humans are not going to be able to solve the classic performance problems in the classic way. Uh they're gonna need automation. So it really does fit well into iBMS hybrid cloud strategy, your, your thoughts and I'll give you the last word. >>Yeah, totally. I mean, I'm IBM generally is of course very far ahead in regards to research AI and all these things this death, sorry, those could be combined with an stand a very, very, you know, natively right. We we are prepared to automate using AI all of the well, I would want to claim that all of the monitoring observe ability problems. Of course, there is manual work in some, you know, in some cases you simply don't know what people want to observe. So you kind of need to give them names and that's where people come in. But this is more creative work. Like you don't want to do the stupid work with people. It doesn't, you know, there is no, it doesn't make any sense. And IBM of course, um requiring in stana gets, you know, the foundation for all of the things that used to be done by hand. Now, fully automated, combined within standard, combined with Watson, the ions, This is, this is huge. This is like a real great story, like the best research of the world eating. Uh, probably the best a PMC. >>That's great Pablo, really appreciate you taking us through Astana and the trends and observe ability and what's going on at IBM. And congratulations on your, your success and thanks for hanging with us with all the craziness going on at your abode. And uh really, it was a pleasure having you on. Thank you. >>Thanks a lot. >>All right, and thank you for watching everybody says Dave Volonte and our ongoing coverage of IBM, think 2021 you're watching the Cube? Yeah. Mhm

>>live from Copenhagen, Denmark. It's the Q covering Nutanix dot next 2019. Brought to you by Nutanix. Okay, Welcome back, everyone. To the Bella Centre in Copenhagen, Denmark. We are kicking off day two of the cubes live coverage of dot Next Nutanix the Nutanix show dot Next I'm your host, Rebecca night sitting alongside stew. Minutemen, of course, Do. The word of the day is delight. And in Copenhagen, Denmark, which is a year after your voted the most happy, the happiest country, the country that coined the term Hugh Ge, which means a sense of well being. What do you think delight It means in the context of this show in particular. >>Yeah, Rebecca. Right yesterday I thought I only knew one word. Ivan tackle. It was, Thank you, of course, but Hugh GE is actually one I I'd read about cause it's interesting. The study of happiness. They actually have an institute here in Denmark on talk about it. As you said, the people are some of the happiest. You say, Wow, it's, you know, often cold and rainy and things like that. But they do look into the study of delight, and it's it's something that I find pretty fascinating. I read a book by Tony Shea, who's the founder and CEO of Zappos talked about. You know, we all talk about where you want to go in career and what you want to do. But you know, how do we actually understand happiness and bringing it to the Tannic Show? Definitely. There is a certain joy from the community here. We've had a lot of talk with some of the practitioners as well as some of Nutanix employees, they want to say customer focused. They wantto, you know, build these experiences as the CEO Dheeraj Pandey said. And therefore, it's not about that that product, because so much in technology it's that new, shiny thing that we understand. Oh, it's never a silver bullet, and there's always the repercussions. And how do I have to reorganize? Things change so fast and technology. But if I could have experienced with the example get used all the time, is you know what would transform when we move to you know, the smartphone revolutionized by the iPhone or so many other things that just pull together, that that simplicity that gets baked in the design, something we've talked about both, You know, in Denmark as well as from the Nutanix discussion s o. So pulling those pieces together kind of a left brain right brain all pulling together. It has been interesting. And yeah, it gives kind of a highlight as to why Copenhagen was a nice place. Definitely. We've enjoyed, you know, being here at the show. >>Absolutely. And I think you're you're you're you're right on or we'll be talking a lot about designed today because delight is one of those again. It's something ineffable quality. You don't know you're being delighted because you're just being delighted. It's just nice at the ease of use. And in Monica Kumar, who we had on the show yesterday, of course, was talking about all all of the elements that go into that, taking 10 clicks and making enemies e swipe, eliminating downtime just a kn easy, intuitive use, which is which is absolutely what goes into delighting customers. We're gonna have a teacher. I'm a Chandran on the show today, talking Maura about designed to, uh, tell me about the energy of the show. We're gonna get into Nutanix a bit more today too. But just what do you think about the energy? Ah, what what you're feeling. >>So there are certain shows that we go to where we know that you have the true believers at the show. Splunk sw dot com is one where they all love the geeky T shirts that they get and people enjoy their service. Now, another one. A lot of the software companies it transformed the way they think. And then then they work. S O. You know, Dave wanted for years would tell me about that community community I know. Well, the VM world community. This reminds me of earlier days in VM World VM wear, you know, is dominant in their space. But, >>you know, >>they're shows. Not exactly. You know, a There are parties and their friends that we get together and one of the best communities in the industry. But, you know, it's a much, much bigger company. When you're 60,000 people and things like that, there's not as much of the kind of smaller, you know, touch and feel. You know, we heard from Monica yesterday. She talked about right when she joined the company. You know, somebody she knew would reached out about an issue that need to be worked out and just seamless, all swarming to solve that issue. Something, you know, I've done it. Some companies I've worked out where you know what teams pulling for. You know, the customer comes first and you get things done. So the customers here definitely are highly engaged, very excited because the experience of using the solution has made their lives easier and transfer help them transform their business. You know, that goal of I t helping toe not only support but be a driver of the business is exciting. >>So So exactly. And this is what we're gonna be talking about today to new tenants. They have this passionate customer base which they will need as they are a maturing company. So not now They're 10. They're hitting their their tween age years. So talk a little bit about what you're seeing about Nutanix trajectory and what it needs to do to to hit those next steps. >>S o. You know, the discussion for the last two years has been the move from removing hardware for something that they sold, which was always it was the software that was important and changes really passed along the hardware to this move to subscription, and along with that, it isn't just the same core a OS Nutanix software and some of the pieces that go with it. But really, they're expanding beyond infrastructure software to some of the application software. So yesterday we had Nikola, who's the CEO of Frame Frame, is desktop as a service S O. That was the type of software that sat on top of Nutanix or on top of the cloud expanding in that market. We're going have Bala on today to talk about ERA its database database absolutely an application that's that on Nutanix. But now they're building some of these applications. It's interesting. Almost 10 years ago, VM where tried to get into the application space they bought an email company they bought a social company on. Really, that didn't pan out well for them. Amazon does not sell many of their. They sell some of their own application, but most of them are an open source solution that is then delivered as opposed to the building applications. On top of a building applications is that the realm of Oracle on Microsoft and IBM have these, so it positions Nutanix in it in a little bit of different space. And how much are they going to have the customers that bought the platform that will build the service's leverage? The service is on top of them versus how many customers will come to them because of that application. Say, Oh, well, you know, database is one of those challenging things. If I could just have a nice, simple solution and maybe that's in the cloud. Or maybe it is on, you know, Nutanix environment in their data center on their server of choice. You know there are some Pastor Newtown is going forward to a much broader tam, but it's much broader competition, too, and you know their sales force and there's go to market their there's partners we're gonna spend a little time talking about, like the systems integrators today s Oh, it is a big, vast sea out there in the I T World. Nutanix has carved out a nice position where they are today, but, you know, opening up a number of areas of adjacent seas that they're going. So as they ride the software wave that they're pushing, it's an interesting one to set them up for the next 10 years. >>Absolutely. So what do you see are the biggest headwinds facing Nutanix right now. But as we've said, they have a passionate customer base. They've on the main stage. This morning we heard about their high net promoter score. We heard about there. They're amazing customer retention s o much repeat business. What do you think, though, Is is sort of the main What should be keeping dear Ege Pandey up at night. >>So one of the biggest challenges is you know, your 5000 person company. How do you keep growing at that pace? How can I hire we heard in Europe? It is a you know what it is a challenging market to hire. You are no longer that small startup that I'm going to get some AIPO bang for Buck. Now I'm a public company, you know, and you know, their stock incentives and things you can do. But Nutanix has a number of areas that they think they have exciting ways for people to be a part of some of these next waves that they're pushing. But that that is a big challenge. There is really cooperative in out there. We've spent much time talking about the ecosystem. They have a decent ecosystem, but their position in the cloud world Is there a player amongst many, many Betty, you know, hundreds, if not thousands, of companies out there When if you go to Amazon, reinvent you confined the Nutanix booth. But it's not one of the big players there you go to the Microsoft show, go to the Google shows. They are a small piece of that. And when we asked peerages, How do you position yourself and how do you, you know, get awareness in this environment? So when they had to down quarters, it was definitely marketing and sales, where the areas that they said they could not hire fast enough so they are going to need to invest more and they still aren't profitable. So we're almost three years past the I po. If you look at the transition to software, their revenues have been relatively flat. Their margins have been going up. But the market will not reward them if they can't keep the growth going. And, you know, start getting closer to that full profitability. >>Exactly, exactly. Well, these are all gonna be topics that we're going to dig deeper into today. We've got a great lineup of gas. And then, of course, the final keynote speaker. One of your faves. >>Yeah, Well, Kit Harington. Rebecca, What did you think of Carolina? >>She was fantastic. And I think what was really exciting about the interviewee, er was name Is Hae a friend of yours? Uh was It was how he was really drawing these analogies to Nutanix journey. It's similar to that of a professional athlete, and that is someone who who's getting knocked down and has to get back up against someone who's hit winning a few things, winning some business here, but she still needs >>She made a great point where said right. You know, the day after she was named number one, her father was like, Well, you need to get lower. You need to do this. And she's like, Wait, I'm number one. But you have to keep working or everyone will come after you. And so Nutanix is in a strong position, but absolutely they know that they need to keep working and training and improving listening to their customers to move forward. >>Absolutely, absolutely. So so. I think she had a lot of lessons for for Newtown Road, for the Nutanix community to so stew. I'm excited. For Day two, We're gonna have a lot of great custom, bloody great customers and Nutanix people on the show today to >>looking forward to it. And they had a fun party last night. They had the DJs were bumping. They had nice international food, some art and some interesting people dressed up as >>hedges and food >>and things walking around. So it was a little bit weird, but a lot of fun. >>And they're the happiest country in the world. What can we say? I'm Rebecca Knight. First Amendment, stay tuned for more of the cubes. Live coverage of Nutanix dot next.

>> Live from San Francisco. It's the cube covering IBM thing twenty nineteen brought to you by IBM. >> Okay. Welcome back, everyone. He live in San Francisco. Here on Mosconi St for the cubes. Exclusive coverage of IBM. Think twenty nineteen. I'm Jeffrey David Long. Four days of coverage bringing on all the action talking. The top executives, entrepreneurs, ecosystem partners and everyone who can bring the signal from the noise here on the Q and excuses. Rob Thomas, general manager, IBM Data and a I with an IBM Cube Alumni. Great to see you again. >> Great. There you go. >> You read a >> book yet? This year we've written ten books on a data. Your general manager. There's >> too much work. Not enough time >> for that's. Good sign. It means you're working hard. Okay. Give us give us the data here because a I anywhere in the center of the announcements we have a story up on. Slick earnings have been reported on CNBC. John Ford was here earlier talking to Ginny. This is a course centerpiece of it. Aye, aye. On any cloud. This highlights the data conversation you've been part of. Now, I think what seven years seems like more. But this is now happening. Give us your thoughts. >> Go back to basics. I've shared this with you before. There's no AI without IA, meaning you need an information architecture to support what you want to do in AI. We started looking into that. Our thesis became so clients are buying into that idea. The problem is their data is everywhere onpremise, private cloud, multiple public clouds. So our thesis became very simple. If we can bring AI to the data, it will make Watson the leading AI platform. So what we announced wtih Watson Anywhere is you could now have it wherever your data is public, private, any public cloud, build the models, run them where you want. I think it's gonna be amazing >> data everywhere and anywhere. So containers are big role in This is a little bit of a deb ops. The world you've been living in convergence of data cloud. How does that set for clients up? What are they need to know about this announcement? Was the impact of them if any >> way that we enable Multi Cloud and Watson anywhere is through IBM cloud private for data? That's our data Micro services architectural writing on Cooper Netease that gives you the portability so that it can run anywhere because, in addition Teo, I'd say, Aye, aye, ambitions. The other big client ambition is around how we modernize to cloud native architectures. Mohr compose herbal services, so the combination gets delivered. Is part of this. >> So this notion of you can't have a eye without a it's It's obviously a great tagline. You use it a lot, but it's super important because there's a gap between those who sort of have a I chops and those who don't. And if I understand what you're doing is you're closing that gap by allowing you to bring you call that a eye to the data is it's sort of a silo buster in regard. Er yeah, >> the model we use. I called the eye ladder. So they give it as all the levels of sophistication an organization needs to think about. From how you collect data, how you organize data, analyze data and then infused data with a I. That's kind of the model that we used to talk about. Talk to clients about that. What we're able to do here is same. You don't have to move your data. The biggest problem Modi projects is the first task is OK move a bunch of data that takes a lot of time. That takes a lot of money. We say you don't need to do that. Leave your data wherever it is. With Cloud private for data, we can virtualized data from any source. That's kind of the ah ha moment people have when they see that. So we're making that piece really >> easy. What's the impact this year and IBM? Think to the part product portfolio. You You had data products in the past. Now you got a eye products. Any changes? How should people live in the latter schism? A kind of a rubric or a view of where they fit into it? But what's up with the products and he changes? People should know about? >> Well, we've brought together the analytics and I units and IBM into this new organization we call Dayton ay, ay, that's a reflection of us. Seen that as two sides of the same coin. I really couldn't really keep them separate. We've really simplified how we're going to market with the Watson products. It's about how you build run Manager II watching studio Watson Machine Learning Watson Open scale. That's for clients that want to build their own. Aye, aye. For clients that wants something out of the box. They want an application. We've got Watson assistant for customer service. Watson Discovery, Watson Health Outset. So we've made it really easy to consume Watson. Whether you want to build your own or you want an application designed for the line of business and then up and down the data, stack a bunch of different announcements. We're bringing out big sequel on Cloudera as part of our evolving partnership with the new Cloudera Horn Works entity. Virtual Data Pipeline is a partnership that we've built with active fio, so we're doing things at all layers of the last. >> You're simplifying the consumption from a client, your customer perspective. It's all data. It's all Watson's, the umbrella for brand for everything underneath that from a tizzy, right? >> Yeah, Watson is the Aye, aye, brand. It is a technology that's having an impact. We have amazing clients on stage with this this week talking about, Hey, Eyes No longer. I'd like to say I was not magic. It's no longer this mystical thing. We have clients that are getting real outcomes. Who they II today we've got Rollback of Scotland talking about how they've automated and augmented forty percent of their customer service with watching the system. So we've got great clients talking about other using >> I today. You seen any patterns, rob in terms of those customers you mentioned, some customers want to do their own. Aye, aye. Some customers wanted out of the box. What? The patterns that you're seeing in terms of who wants to do their own. Aye. Aye. Why do they want to do their own, eh? I do. They get some kind of competitive advantage. So they have additional skill sets that they need. >> It's a >> It's a maker's mark. It is how I would describe it. There's a lot of people that want to make their own and try their own. Ugh. I think most organizations, they're gonna end up with hundreds of different tools for building for running. This is why we introduced Watson Open Scale at the end of last year. That's How would you manage all of your A II environments? What did they come from? IBM or not? Because you got the and the organization has to have this manageable. Understandable, regardless of which tool they're using. I would say the biggest impact that we see is when we pick a customer problem. That is widespread, and the number one right now is customer service. Every organization, regardless of industry, wants to do a better job of serving clients. That's why Watson assistant is taking off >> this's. Where? Data The value of real time data. Historical data kind of horizontally. Scaleable data, not silo data. We've talked us in the past. How important is to date a quality piece of this? Because you have real time and you have a historical date and everything in between that you had to bring to bear at low ladened psi applications. Now we're gonna have data embedded in them as a feature. Right. How does this change? The workloads? The makeup of you? Major customer services? One piece, the low hanging fruit. I get that. But this is a key thing. The data architecture more than anything, isn't it? >> It is. Now remember, there's there's two rungs at the bottom of the ladder on data collection. We have to build a collect data in any form in any type. That's why you've seen us do relationships with Mongo. D B. Were they ship? Obviously with Claude Era? We've got her own data warehouse, so we integrate all of that through our sequel engine. That thing gets to your point around. Are you gonna organize the data? How are you going to curate it? We've got data catalogue. Every client will have a data catalogue for many dollar data across. Clouds were now doing automated metadata creation using a I and machine learning So the organization peace. Once you've collected it than the organization, peace become most important. Certainly, if you want to get to self service analytics, you want to make data available to data scientists around the organization. You have to have those governance pieces. >> Talk about the ecosystem. One of the things that's been impressive IBM of the years is your partnerships. You've done good partners. Partnership of relationships now in an ecosystem is a lot of building blocks. There's more complexity requires software to distract him away. We get that. What's opportunities for you to create new relationships? Where are the upper opportunities for someone a developer or accompanied to engage with you guys? Where's the white spaces? Where is someone? Take advantage of your momentum and you're you're a vision. >> I am dying for partners that air doing domain specific industry specific applications to come have them run on IBM cloud private for data, which unleashes all the data they need to be a valuable application. We've already got a few of those data mirrors. One sensing is another one that air running now as industry applications on top of IBM Club private for data. I'd like to have a thousand of these. So all comers there. We announced a partnership with Red Hat back in May. Eventually, that became more than just a partnership. But that was about enabling Cloud Private, for data on red had open shift, So we're partnered at all layers of the stack. But the greatest customer need is give me an industry solution, leveraging the best of my data. That's why I'm really looking for Eyes V. Partners to run on Ivan clubs. >> What's your pitch to those guys? Why, why I should be going. >> There is no other data platform that will connect to all your data sources, whether they're on eight of us as your Google Cloud on premise. So if you believe data is important to your application. There's simply no better place to run than IBM. Claude Private for data >> in terms of functionality, breath o r. Everything >> well, integrating with all your data. Normally they have to have the application in five different places. We integrate with all the data we build the data catalogue. So the data's organized. So the ingestion of the data becomes very easy for the Iast V. And by the way, thirdly, IBM has got a pretty good reach. Globally, one hundred seventy countries, business partners, resellers all over the world, sales people all over the world. We will help you get your product to market. That's a pretty good value >> today. We talk about this in the Cube all the time. When the cloud came, one of the best things about the cloud wasn't allowed. People to put applications go there really quickly. Stand them up. Startups did that. But now, in this domain world of of data with the clouds scale, I think you're right. I think domain X expertise is the top of the stack where you need specially special ism expertise and you don't build the bottom half out. What you're getting at is of Europe. If you know how to create innovation in the business model, you could come in and innovate quickly >> and vertical APS don't scale enough for me. So that's why focus on horizontal things like customer service. But if you go talk to a bank, sometimes customer service is not in office. I want to do something in loan origination or you're in insurance company. I want to use their own underwriting those air, the solutions that will get a lot of value out of running on an integrated data start >> a thousand flowers. Bloom is kind of ecosystem opportunity. Looking forward to checking in on that. Thoughts on on gaps. For that you guys want to make you want to do em in a on or areas that you think you want to double down on. That might need some help, either organic innovation or emanate what areas you looking at. Can you share a little bit of direction on that? >> We have, >> ah, a unique benefit. And IBM because we have IBM research. One of their big announcement this week is what we call Auto Way I, which is basically automating the process of feature engineering algorithm selection, bringing that into Watson Studio and Watson Machine learning. I am spending most of my time figure out howto I continue to bring great technology out of IBM research and put in the hand of clients through our products. You guys solve the debaters stuff yesterday. We're just getting started with that. We've got some pretty exciting organic innovation happen in IBM. >> It's awesome. Great news for startups. Final question for you. For the folks watching who aren't here in San Francisco, what's the big story here? And IBM think here in San Francisco. Big event closing down the streets here in Howard Street. It's huge. What's the big story? What's the most important things happening? >> The most important thing to me and the customer stories >> here >> are unbelievable. I think we've gotten past this point of a eyes, some idea for the future we have. Hundreds of clients were talking about how they did an A I project, and here's the outcome they got. It's really encouraging to see what I encourage. All clients, though, is so build your strategy off of one big guy. Project company should be doing hundreds of Aye, aye projects. So in twenty nineteen do one hundred projects. Half of them will probably fail. That's okay. The one's that work will more than make up for the ones that don't work. So we're really encouraging mass experimentation. And I think the clients that air here are, you know, creating an aspirational thing for things >> just anecdotally you mentioned earlier. Customer service is a low hanging fruit. Other use cases that are great low hanging fruit opportunities for a >> data discovery data curation these air really hard manual task. Today you can start to automate some of that. That has a really big impact. >> Rob Thomas, general manager of the data and a I groupie with an IBM now part of a bigger portfolio. Watson Rob. Great to see you conventionally on all your success. But following you from the beginning. Great momentum on the right way. Thanks. Gradually. More cute coverage here. Live in San Francisco from Mosconi North. I'm John for Dave A lot. They stay with us for more coverage after this short break

but cute at servicenow knowledge 14 is sponsored by service now here are your hosts Dave vellante and Jeff Creek we're back hi everybody this is Dave vellante with Jeff Frick we're here live at knowledge 14 this is service now it's big customer event about 6,600 people up from about four thousand last year as we've been saying it's kind of tracking the growth of service now which has been pretty meteoric we heard from Mike scarpelli the CFO Frank's loot men they're really doubling down and it's exciting to see we're here in San Francisco where all the action is Jeffrey Moore is here author consultant pundits all-around smart guy cube alum greatly again thank you here so um so you're speaking at the CIO decisions i love the fact that they got so many CIOs here who real CIA a lot of times these conferences you get to you know the infrastructure guys but so what's the vibe like over there well you know it's kind of cool because if you think about service now and you go back to say 10 years this was all about how to make IT more productive around the ITIL model and you know and you'd use these automated services to do this stuff what's happening and Frank nailed it in the keynote he said look this infrastructure can be turned inside out and you can service enable the entire enterprise not just IT need a service enterprise you know HR you can decision a marketing eight-day any other shared service you can turn into a bunch of services that you can sort of call in and use service now as a platform so so the cios it was all about well that that's a different that's a different vision and so how do we map from the old way of sort of thinking about this is an internal productivity facility to this new way of saying no this is an enterprise enablement platform that's a big that's a big move a little bit like Salesforce going to force calm that same flavor yes sir frank's keynote was talking about how the CIO has to become you know more business savvy and of course we've heard that a lot for years and years and years but in fact a number of the folks that we've had on here at the service now are actually of that hill maybe they came from the business but most CIOs didn't necessarily come from the business they weren't P&L managers they weren't running sales do you see that changing yeah I think what happened in the 20th century was IT was sufficiently complex that frankly you had to be a technical person to do it it just it was just really hard and and yes you needed business consultants but the end of the day you needed ten percent business consultants and ninety percent technical people I think we've come a long way since then in the next generation of stuff is more around systems of engagement these things that that communicate with each other as opposed to systems of record and so the profile the winning IT strategy is migrating from help us run information about our business in the back office to help us actually re-engineer the dynamics of our business in the world in the present and that's like going from from data to behavior them it's a big we call it going from systems of record to systems of engagement it's a big show and is that that transition in your mind is very disruptive so what happens to all those purveyors and buyers of systems of engagement to they morph into obsessive record do they morph into systems of engagement do they just get blown away no it's interesting so so so first of all you're never going to get rid of your systems of record but at the margin we've probably extracted most of the lifetime value from that investment already so you need to maintain them and so the industry is consolidating a round of an anchor set of vendors who we trust to do that but the growth is going to be like if you look at systems of engagement we might have gotten five percent of the lifetime value there so at their margin if you have a dollar to spend people want to spend it in there so the challenge of being an incumbent is I'm not going to lose my base but man the growth is happening over here so the real challenge for that for the incumbent vendors is how can i participate in the new world and still maintain my relationships in the old world whereas the new guys are just coming and saying i don't i'll leave the old world of you guys i just want to play over here i can get your take on the structure of the IT business is you've observed as have i sort of these disruptions and these changes over time so obviously we went from being framed at pc you saw that the competitive line started to get more disintegrated yes i could use that that term a competition occurred on those I see that Intel's ascendancy in Microsoft and Oracle the best database companies the emc was the storage company and everything was sort of you know siloed and but leadership the leadership matrix has largely stayed intact I mean even IBM and okay HP said its ends up and down but it's largely stayed intact do you see the cloud changing that fundamentally changing the economic yes I think yes I think what happened is so in the client server error we did we built the stack what you're just described and every layer of the stack had a leader now I think since 2000 y2k that stack is being compressed meaning there are fewer and fewer vendors that are still in the in that in that leadership cadre and as we go to like cloud and computing the service you start saying well yeah i still have cisco in there i still have IBM in there but maybe i'm buying them as a service rather than as a set of equipment so you kind of can feel that world just I think compressing this look is the right word and where is the experimentation the opportunity to sort of find new places to go to it's very much in this world outboard of the IT data center where it it is about engaging engaging with your customer engaging with your employee engaging with your supply chain and using mobile things and social and you know analytics and cloud and all these new technologies the freedom to do that is is actually outboard of the of the old style I show you what you described as sort of an oligopoly and you've got these big whales and I've always asking you know guys who follow this it are we going to see somebody to disrupt that Amazon is the obvious you have to go to them a three billion dollar you know company growing at sixty percent a year with marginal economics of services that look like software yep but at the same time it's okay they've got this huge lead but it doesn't just make sense to me that it's sustainable I mean because hardware economics never will go to 0 so you would think that somebody was almost like the IBM early pc days remember IBM heavily yep we're domin to play that's kind of what kind of way amazon is now do you do you see that you see more competition from amazon why is it that they don't have direct competition so the less of the last book i wrote in the last the thing i've been working on most recently is around why is it so hard for the established incumbents to catch the next wave and the problem is so you look at why amazon's why is Amazon so unopposed in many of its initiatives well their business model in the economic model is completely divorced from the incumbent model and so you look at the incumbent in there going it's not that I don't see what the guys are doing I get what they're doing I just don't see how I can get my investors or my my whole infrastructure on to that new place in my example that was code at so you know Antonio Perez came from HP he knew what he was getting into he understood digital everybody at Kodak understood digital but they couldn't get to the other place so in this it would call it escape velocity how do you free yourself from your own paths and you you really do have to take a pretty dramatic approach to it and I think by the way i think i'm looking at microsoft in particular i think it I think Microsoft's going to give a very very big run at doing it and but I think that they're still more the exception than the rule you would wish that every one of those vendors would say look you know because every CIO here if any of those vendors came to him and said hey we're going to really try to play here will you help they'd say yes they don't want to change their relationships but but we get trapped in these business models and then you sort of grind and you grind and grind and after a while it's like well man you've just ground yourself to do I owe the classic label Christensen right individuals dilemma and it also makes a question is d said David's been the same characters kind of changing companies had not Jeff Bezos and Amazon come in with a completely different model to drive cloud with the other people who still has to transfer so they want to give credit to you want to bet it to be so so you want to give credit to Benioff by the way Benioff has been has been the kind of prow of a ship that brings in the illusory at work day brings in netsuite brings in service service now you know so the software-as-a-service thing is coming in at one level and remember if you were an on-premise guy it's very very how many years did did SI p commit an enormous amount of money to say we're going to have a great cloud offering and it just it's so hard so so it is so and then you're looking now at this sort of this next layer of collaborative IT and you're seeing box and octant hang all these cool thing and analytics and splunk consumer logic and all these companies going really I mean I you know I mean if your fear of my age is like okay you have a t-shirt they got love to you think I'm a teacher but but but the point is this free space and they're saying there's these cool problems to solve we're not encumbered by any of the legacy we're going to race ahead and so if you're a CIO well we spent most of our time with the cios today was ok i have established set of relationships here i'm not going to abandon them but at the margin i need them to help me think about the future I thought these really start sparkly new startups some i'm sure not going to exist next year but some are going to be the leaders so how play that game right now and and the pressure it's putting on the IT organization is the people I know that are good at this are not the people that are good at this and so how do I so we had to talk about talent and how do you manage and how do you create career paths and and is it or do you have a infrastructure officer vs an innovation office I'm it was all around that same prob right and then oh by the way there's Hadoop and mobile and big data and some of these other just open source innovations that are being just thrown all these guys played it is so from a technology plate from a technology play if you're technologists it's like bring it on right but I think the interesting thing is and most of my career aighty was about the business so you ran a business and you had IT systems which gave you information about your business what's happened in the last 15 years is that more and more sectors of the economy i T is becoming the business so you saw what happened the newspapers in facilitate with IT isn't about the newspaper business IT is displacing the newspaper business Google is displaced in the media business amazon is displacing retail you know mobile banking is displacing banking Airbnb uber I mean this so there we have the taxi guys are worried them it and so you start saying it isn't IT isn't about the business it's a digital world and and so all of us and that was it i think that was probably at the core of the discussion so which cio am i what do I have permission to be would do my colleagues get this you know am I competent to do it if they do I mean you've talked about this a lot and you've given a number of examples so so was nicked car just dead wrong in 2003 or just to a narrow it is to keep what he was saying I believe is that systems of record okay are dead I think at that time by the way it wasn't obvious there was anything else because it no serious i can remember to you know the whole venture community kind of abandoned itv4 about researcher ivan on 101 yeah it was and even in the end even in the physical infrastructure there's still the idea is the basis of the competitive and about the reporting system yeah and i think this issue about so i think there's still a few businesses we're really IT still is about the business and you know what you can kind of stick with whatever you were doing you'll be okay but if your business is under an existential threat meaning the new IT model eviscerates your business model which arguably you could say all those both those incumbent stack vendors you know I mean cloud does eviscerate the on-premise hardware data center business model which was the fundamental foundation of IT as I knew it for all my business career and now all this it's like holy how do i how do i how do I deal with it so we talk about Amazon as a potential you know new you know big whale Salesforce is obviously he's got it but they've been around since 99 there's going to be exception mm-hmm proves the rule I don't maybe a service now or a workday you know we'll see if this market is big enough it looks like it it might be what often happens is they these guys let's get gobbled up or Larry Ellison writes a check you say these to denigrate people who write write checks not code I think the biggest matter and they got such mass never was afraid to reinvent himself change the game change the dynamics of the industry so do you think we will see a another big player and where will that comfort will it be the SAS guys will it be the sum of the guys out of the hadoop world what I don't think it will so here here's what I don't think will work I don't think you can be an established incumbent vendor under this compression power and write a check and get yourself back I think what happens when you write a check if you just bring a hot property into cold molecules and it loses its exactly exactly so I don't think that will work I think if you want to be one of these incumbents and succeed over here you have to actually pull part of your own DNA and capability and we literally just jump and then I think you can acquire it to it to build a thing there but what Larry did was he consolidate he basically was the first guy to figure out Nick Carr is right I need to buy up all the properties yep and brother George ball and run a maintenance business which by the way came to read and Georgia computer associates had that play up in the eighties it's the same play with this is a different plan well I love what you say in emc is an interesting one to watch the way to chi is setting up this Federation with pivotal and VMware you know who see we'll see what happens with the quarry NC and I think VI 3 of 8 yeah I think that that is I mean VMware's one of the wonderful examples of think we're a company did not cause the hot molecules become the cold molecules the thing you wonder there though is it feels a little bit like a like a holding company if you will and so and by the way vmware is in a curious tweener right like they kind of were the most they made the old stack incredibly productive so in some sense they can feel like they're part of the old world right they're probably the newest kid on the old world but then you think well yeah but I want to look at their plan now they want to be into software-defined networks they wanted me to software-defined data centers they definitely want to play over here and what it's in this case so state partners Wow one could argue that that was it because of what big in the cloud virtualize computing absolutely absolutely so what're you working on these days that's exciting well so that I think this issue of working with management teams to say okay look this is a self-imposed exile that we're putting ourselves under you know we get it i'll call it the Kodak problem because I don't want to talk about anybody in high tech specifically at the moment but the point is every management team in the established vendor group puts itself on a self imposed discipline to make you know certain kinds of eps things certain kinds of growth you know whatever it is the expectations of their investors and you look at the situation you say guys that is a slope glide path to extinction we all know that and by the way off the record they know it's no it's not that that is this is not a failure of it like this is a failure of will so then the question is well so how do you negotiate a different path and part of it is you have to make you have you have to be able to tell a story of your investors part of it is you have to negotiate a different operating model inside the company and what they've done so far is they said well okay we've got our established businesses and we've got our innovative businesses and we know enough to keep them apart so that part is not the problem and they actually come up with cool stuff the the moment of truth is when can you scale any of these innovative businesses to compete to actually be a material part of your historical portfolio meaning in my terminology at least ten percent of your total revenue going to twenty percent in what happens in that journey is it a key point you have to draw on the resources of your established business and all the people that make their living and they're compensated on getting the next quarter in the next quarter go guys I can't make the quarter and do this and you've got it you've got to find a way to say you know if we don't figure out a way to pull some of that resource over here and play our next hand will invent everything in the world but we'll never get it to scale and so there's there's a bunch of stuff around business model planning and then Investor Relations organizational development it's all around saying and the key there's two key ideas idea number one is it's a go-to-market problem not an RD problem you do not have an innovation problem you can't get your thing to market and the second cool idea is you can only do one of the time and everybody says well but give have the risk to so high you got a three or four or five of these things maybe want to work it's like know the sacrifice is so great if you put two or more horses in the race people people won't even run so the other one that's a focus and don't it's ok not to make the quarter that's like on American looking like michael dunn right i mean that's obsessively what he's hoping to be able to do and i think one of the reasons you see people go private is to say i can't play this game bye-bye normal public company protocol i mean i like to but i can't get there from here now i actually don't think every company ought to have to go private to do this but i think they do have to change their playboys all right Jeff we have to leave it there hey great to see you thank you very much me feel smarter just hanging out with you right there buddy we'll be right back after this is the cube you