>>Hello, My name is John John Sheikh from Iran Tous. Welcome to our session on new extensions for doctors CLI as we all know, containers air everywhere. Kubernetes is coming on strong and the CNC F cloud landscape slide has become a marvel to behold its complexities about to surpass that of the photo. Letha dies used to fabricate the old intel to 86 and future generations of the diagram will be built out and up into multiple dimensions using extreme ultraviolet lithography. Meanwhile, complexity is exploding and uncertainty about tools, platform details, processes and the economic viability of our companies in changing and challenging times is also increasing. Mirant ous, as you've already heard today, believes that achieving speed is critical and that speed results from balancing choice with simplicity and security. You've heard about Dr Enterprise Container Cloud, a new framework built on kubernetes, the less you deploy compliant, secure by default. Cooper nineties clusters on any infrastructure, providing a seamless self service capable cloud experience to developers. Get clusters fast, Justus, you need them, Update them seamlessly. Scale them is needed all while keeping workloads running smoothly. And you've heard how Dr Enterprise Container Cloud also provides all the day one and Day two and observe ability, tools, the integration AP ICE and Top Down Security, Identity and Secrets management to run operations efficiently. You've also heard about Lens, an open source i D for kubernetes. Aimed at speeding up the most banding, tightest inner loop of kubernetes application development. Lens beautifully meets the needs of a new class of developers who need to deal with multiple kubernetes clusters. Multiple absent project sufficiently developers who find themselves getting bogged down and seal I only coop CTL work flows and context switches into and out of them. But what about Dr Developers? They're working with the same core technologies all the time. They're accessing many of the same amenities, including Docker, engine Enterprise, Docker, Trusted registry and so on. Sure, their outer loop might be different. For example, they might be orchestrating on swarm. Many companies are our future of Swarm session talks about the ongoing appeal of swarm and Miranda's commitment to maintaining and extending the capabilities of swarm Going forward. Dr Enterprise Container Cloud can, of course, deployed doctor enterprise clusters with 100% swarm orchestration on computes just Aziza Leah's. It can provide kubernetes orchestration or mixed swarming kubernetes clusters. The problem for Dr Dev's is that nobody's given them an easy way to use kubernetes without a learning curve and without getting familiar with new tools and work flows, many of which involved buoys and are somewhat tedious for people who live on the command line and like it that way until now. In a few moments you'll meet my colleagues Chris Price and Laura Powell, who enact a little skit to introduce and demonstrate our new extended docker CLI plug in for kubernetes. That plug in offers seamless new functionality, enabling easy context management between the doctor Command Line and Dr Enterprise Clusters deployed by Dr Enterprise Container Cloud. We hope it will help Dev's work faster, help them adapt decay. TSA's they and their organizations manage platform coexistence or transition. Here's Chris and Laura, or, as we like to call them, developer A and B. >>Have you seen the new release of Docker Enterprise Container Cloud? I'm already finding it easier to manage my collection of UCP clusters. >>I'm glad it's helping you. It's great we can manage multiple clusters, but the user interface is a little bit cumbersome. >>Why is that? >>Well, if I want to use docker cli with a cluster, I need to download a client bundle from UCP and use it to create a contact. I like that. I can see what's going on, but it takes a lot of steps. >>Let me guess. Are these the steps? First you have to navigate to the web. You i for docker Enterprise Container Cloud. You need to enter your user name and password. And since the cluster you want to access is part of the demo project, you need to change projects. Then you have to choose a cluster. So you choose the first demo cluster here. Now you need to visit the U C p u I for that cluster. You can use the link in the top right corner of the page. Is that about right? >>Uh yep. >>And this takes you to the UCP you. I log in page now you can enter your user name and password again, but since you've already signed in with key cloak, you can use that instead. So that's good. Finally, you've made it to the landing page. Now you want to download a client bundle what you can do by visiting your user profile, you'll generate a new bundle called Demo and download it. Now that you have the bundle on your local machine, you can import it to create a doctor context. First, let's take a look at the context already on your machine. I can see you have the default context here. Let's import the bundle and call it demo. If we look at our context again, you can see that the demo context has been created. Now you can use the context and you'll be able to interact with your UCP cluster. Let's take a look to see if any stacks are running in the cluster. I can see you have a stack called my stack >>in >>the default name space running on Kubernetes. We can verify that by checking the UCP you I and there it iss my stack in the default name space running on Kubernetes. Let's try removing the stack just so we could be sure we're dealing with the right cluster and it disappears. As you can see. It's easy to use the Docker cli once you've created a context, but it takes quite a bit of effort to create one in the first place. Imagine? >>Yes. Imagine if you had 10 or 20 or 50 clusters toe work with. It's a management nightmare. >>Haven't you heard of the doctor Enterprise Container Cloud cli Plug in? >>No, >>I think you're going to like it. Let me show you how it works. It's already integrated with the docker cli You start off by setting it up with your container cloud Instance, all you need to get started is the base. You are all of your container cloud Instance and your user name and password. I'll set up my clothes right now. I have to enter my user name and password this one time only. And now I'm all set up. >>But what does it actually dio? >>Well, we can list all of our clusters. And as you can see, I've got the cluster demo one in the demo project and the cluster demo to in the Demo project Taking a look at the web. You I These were the same clusters we're seeing there. >>Let me check. Looks good to me. >>Now we can select one of these clusters, but let's take a look at our context before and after so we can understand how the plug in manages a context for us. As you can see, I just have my default contact stored right now, but I can easily get a context for one of our clusters. Let's try demo to the plug in says it's created a context called Container Cloud for me and it's pointing at the demo to cluster. Let's see what our context look like now and there's the container cloud context ready to go. >>That's great. But are you saying once you've run the plug in the doctor, cli just works with that cluster? >>Sure. Let me show you. I've got a doctor stack right here and it deploys WordPress. Well, the play it to kubernetes for you. Head over to the U C P u I for the cluster so you can verify for yourself. Are you ready? >>Yes. >>First I need to make sure I'm using the context >>and >>then I can deploy. And now we just have to wait for the deployment to complete. It's as easy as ever. >>You weren't lying. Can you deploy the same stack to swarm on my other clusters? >>Of course. And that should also show you how easy it is to switch between clusters. First, let's just confirm that our stack has reported as running. I've got a stack called WordPress demo in the default name space running on Kubernetes to deploy to the other cluster. First I need to select it that updates the container cloud context so I don't even need to switch contexts, since I'm already using that one. If I check again for running stacks, you can see that our WordPress stack is gone. Bring up the UCP you I on your other cluster so you can verify the deployment. >>I'm ready. >>I'll start the deployment now. It should be appearing any moment. >>I see the services starting up. That's great. It seems a lot easier than managing context manually. But how do I know which cluster I'm currently using? >>Well, you could just list your clusters like So do you see how this one has an asterisk next to its name? That means it's the currently selected cluster >>I'm sold. Where can I get the plug in? >>Just go to get hub dot com slash miran tous slash container dash cloud dash cli and follow the instructions

(upbeat music) >> Okay, welcome back everyone. I'm John Furrier here in theCUBE, in Palo Alto for "CUBE Conversation" with Chris Jones, Director of Product Management at Platform9. I've got a series of questions, had a great conversation earlier. Chris, I have a couple questions for you, what do you think? >> Let's do it, John. >> Okay, how does Platform9 Solution, you- can it be used on any infrastructure anywhere, cloud, edge, on-premise? >> It can, that's the beauty of our control plane, right? It was born in the cloud, and we primarily deliver that SaaS, which allows it to work in your data center, on bare metal, on VMs, or with public cloud infrastructure. We now give you the ability to take that control plane, install it in your data center, and then use it with anything, or even in air gap. And that includes capabilities with bare metal orchestration as well. >> Second question. How does Platform9 ensure maximum uptime, and proactive issue resolution? >> Oh, that's a good question. So if you come to Platform nine we're going to talk about always on assurance. What is driving that is a system of three components around self-healing, monitoring, and proactive assistance. So our software will heal broken things on nodes, right? If something stops running that should be running, it will attempt to restart that. We also have monitoring that's deployed with everything. So you build a cluster in AWS, well, we put open source monitoring agents, that are actually Prometheus, on every single node. That means it's resilient, right? So if you lose a node, you don't lose monitoring. But that data importantly comes back to our control plane, and that's the control plane that you can put in your data center as well. That data is what alerts us, and you as a user, anytime of the day that something's going wrong. Let's say etcd latency, good example, etcd is going slow. We'll find out, we might not be able to take restorative action immediately, but we're definitely going to reach out and say,, "You have a problem, let's get ahead of this and let's prevent that from becoming a bigger problem." And that's what we're delivering. When we say always on assurance, we're talking about self-healing, we're talking about remote monitoring, we're talking about being proactive with our customers, not waiting for the phone call or the support desk ticket saying, "Oh we think something's not working." Or worse, the customer has an outage. >> Awesome. Thanks for sharing. Can you explain the process for implementing Platform9 within a company's existing infrastructure. >> Are we doing air gap, or on-prem or SaaS approached? SaaS approach I think is by far the easiest, right? We can build a dedicated Platform9 control plane instance in a manner of minutes, for any customer. So when we do a proof of concept or onboarding, we just literally put in an email address, put in the name you want for your fully qualified domain name, and your instance is up. From that point onwards, the user can just log in, and using our CLI, talk to any number of, say, virtual machines, or physical servers in their environment for, you know, doing this in a data center or colo, and say, "I want these to be my Kubernetes control plane nodes. Here's the five of them. Here's the VIP for the load balancing, the API server and here are all of my compute nodes." And that CLI will work with the SaaS control plane, and go and build the cluster. That's as simple as it, CentOS, Ubuntu, just plain old operating system. Our software takes care of all the prerequisites, installing all the pieces, putting down MetalLB, CoreDNS, Metrics Server, Kubernetes dashboard, etcd backups. You built some servers. That's essentially what you've done, and the rest is being handled by Platform9. It's as simple as that. >> Great, thanks for that. What are the two traditional paths for companies considering the cloud native journey? The two paths. >> The traditional paths. I think that's your engineering team running so fast that before you even realize that you've got, you know, 10 EKS clusters. Or, hey, we can do this. You know, I've got the I can build it mentality. Let's go DIY completely open source Kubernetes on our infrastructure, and we're going to piecemeal build it all up together. They're, I think the pathways that people traditionally look at this journey, as opposed to having that third alternative saying can I just consume it on my infrastructure, be it cloud or on-premise or at the edge. >> Third is the new way, you guys do that. >> That's been our focus since the company was, you know, brought together back in the open OpenStack days. >> Awesome, what's the makeup of your customer base? Is there a certain pattern to the size or environments that you guys work with? Is there a pattern or consistency to your customer base? >> It's a spread, right? We've got large enterprises like Juniper, and we go all the way down to people with 20, 30, 50 nodes in total. We've got people in banking and finance, we've got things all the way through to telecommunications and storage infrastructure. >> What's your favorite feature of Platform9? >> My favorite feature? You know, if I ask, should I say this as a pre-sales engineer, let me show you a favorite thing. My immediate response is, I should never do this. (John laughs) To me it's just being able to define my cluster and say, go. And in five minutes I have that environment, I can see everything that's running, right? It's all unified, it's one spot, right? I'm a cluster admin. I said I wanted three control plane, 25 workers. Here's the infrastructure, it creates it, and once it's built, I can see everything that's running, right? All the applications that are there. One UI, I don't have to go click around. I'm not trying to solve things or download things. It's the fact that it's unified and just delivered in one hit. >> What is the one thing that people should know about Platform9 that they might not know about it? >> I think it's that we help developers and engineers as much as we can help our operations teams. I think, for a long time we've sort of targeted that user and said, hey, we, we really help you. It's like, but why are they doing this? Why are they building any infrastructure or any cloud platform? Well, it's to run applications and services, to help their customers, but how do they get there? There's people building and writing those things, and we're helping them, right? For the last two years, we've been really focused on making it simple, and I think that's an important thing to know. >> Chris, thanks so much, appreciate it. >> Yeah, thank you, John. >> Okay, that's theCUBE Q&A session here with Platform9. I'm John Furrier, thanks for watching. (light music)

(lively music) >> Hello, everyone. Welcome back to the Supercloud presentation here. I'm theCUBE, I'm John Furrier, your host. What a great segment here. We're going to unpack the networking aspect of the cloud, how that translates into what Supercloud architecture and platform deployment scenarios look like. And demystify multi-cloud, hybridcloud. We've got two great experts. Amir Khan, the Co-Founder and CEO of Alkira, Atif Khan, Co-Founder and CTO of Alkira. These guys been around since 2018 with the startup, but before that story, history in the tech industry. I mean, routing early days, multiple waves, multiple cycles. >> Welcome three decades. >> Welcome to Supercloud. >> Thanks. >> Thanks for coming on. >> Thank you so much for having us. >> So, let's get your take on Supercloud because it's been one of those conversations that really galvanized the industry because it kind of highlights almost this next wave, this next side of the street that everyone's going to be on that's going to be successful. The laggards on the legacy seem to be stuck on the old model. SaaS is growing up, it's ISVs, it's ecosystems, hyperscale, full hybrid. And then multi-cloud around the corners cause all this confusion, everyone's hand waving. You know, this is a solution, that solution, where are we? What do you guys see as this supercloud dynamic? >> So where we start from is always focusing on the customer problem. And in 2018 when we identified the problem, we saw that there were multiple clouds with many diverse ways of doing things from the network perspective, and customers were struggling with that. So we delved deeper into that and looked at each one of the cloud architectures completely independent. And there was no common solution and customers were struggling with that from the perspective. They wanted to be in multiple clouds, either through mergers and acquisitions or running an application which may be more cost effective to run in something or maybe optimized for certain reasons to run in a different cloud. But from the networking perspective, everything needed to come together. So that's, we are starting to define it as a supercloud now, but basically, it's a common infrastructure across all clouds. And then integration of high lift services like, you know, security or IPAM services or many other types of services like inter-partner routing and stuff like that. So, Amir, you agree then that multi-cloud is simply a default result of having whatever outcomes, either M&A, some productivity software, maybe Azure. >> Yes. >> Amazon has this and then I've got on-premise application, so it's kinds mishmash. >> So, I would qualify it with hybrid multi-cloud because everything is going to be interconnected. >> John: Got it. >> Whether it's on-premise, remote users or clouds. >> But have CTO perspective, obviously, you got developers, multiple stacks, got AWS, Azure and GCP, other. Not everyone wants to kind of like go all in, but yet they don't want to hedge too much because it's a resource issue. And I got to learn this stack, I got to learn that stack. So then now, you have this default multi-cloud, hybrid multi-cloud, then it's like, okay, what do I do? How do you spread that around? Is it dangerous? What's the the approach technically? What's some of the challenges there? >> Yeah, certainly. John, first, thanks for having us here. So, before I get to that, I'll just add a little bit to what Amir was saying, like how we started, what we were seeing and how it, you know, correlates with the supercloud. So, as you know, before this company, Alkira, we were doing, we did the SD-WAN company, which was Viptela. So there, we started seeing when people started deploying SD-WAN at like a larger scale. We started like, you know, customers coming to us and saying they needed connectivity into the cloud from the SD-WAN. They wanted to extend the SD-WAN fabric to the cloud. So we came up with an architecture, which was like later we started calling them Cloud onRamps, where we built, you know, a transit VPC and put like the virtual instances of SD-WAN appliances extended from there to the cloud. But before we knew, like it started becoming very complicated for the customers because it wasn't just connectivity, it also required, you know, other use cases. You had to instantiate or bring in security appliances in there. You had to secure all of that stuff. There were requirements for, you know, different regions. So you had to bring up the same thing in different regions. Then multiple clouds, what did you do? You had to replicate the same thing in multiple clouds. And now if there was was requirement between clouds, how were you going to do it? You had to route traffic from somewhere, and come up with all those routing controls and stuff. So, it was very complicated. >> Like spaghetti code, but on network. >> The games begin, in fact, one of our customers called it spaghetti mess. And so, that's where like we thought about where was the industry going and which direction the industry was going into? And we came up with the Alkira where what we are doing is building a common infrastructure across multiple clouds, across in, you know, on-prem locations, be it data centers or physical sites, branches sites, et cetera, with integrated security and network networking services inside. And, you know, nowadays, networking is not only about connectivity, you have to secure everything. So, security has to be built in. Redundancy, high availability, disaster recovery. So all of that needs to be built in. So that's like, you know, kind of a definition of like what we thought at that time, what is turning into supercloud now. >> Yeah. It's interesting too, you mentioned, you know, VPCs is not, configuration of loans a hassle. Nevermind the manual mistakes could be made, but as you decide to do something you got to, "Oh, we got to get these other things." A lot of the hyper scales and a lot of the alpha cloud players now, and cloud native folks, they're kind of in that mode of, "Wow, look at what we've built." Now, they're got to maintain, how do I refresh it? Like, how do I keep the talent? So they got this similar chaotic environment where it's like, okay, now they're already already through, so I think they're going to be okay. But then some people want to bypass it completely. So there's a lot of customers that we see out there that fit the makeup of, I'm cloud first, I've lifted and shifted, I move some stuff to the cloud. But I want to bypass all that learnings from all the people that are gone through the past three years. Can I just skip that and go to a multi-cloud or coherent infrastructure? What do you think about that? What's your view? >> So yeah, so if you look at these enterprises, you know, many of them just to find like the talent, which for one cloud as far as the IT staff is concerned, it's hard enough. And now, when you have multiple clouds, it's hard to find people the talent which is, you know, which has expertise across different clouds. So that's where we come into the picture. So our vision was always to simplify all of this stuff. And simplification, it cannot be just simplification because you cannot just automate the workflows of the cloud providers underneath. So you have to, you know, provide your full data plane on top of it, fed full control plane, management plane, policy and management on top of it. And coming back to like your question, so these nowadays, those people who are working on networking, you know, before it used to be like CLI. You used to learn about Cisco CLI or Juniper CLI, and you used to work on it. Nowadays, it's very different. So automation, programmability, all of that stuff is the key. So now, you know, Ops guys, the DevOps guys, so these are the people who are in high demand. >> So what do you think about the folks out there that are saying, okay, you got a lot of fragmentation. I got the stacks, I got a lot of stove pipes, if you will, out there on the stack. I got to learn this from Azure. Can you guys have with your product abstract the way that's so developers don't need to know the ins and outs of stack's, almost like a gateway, if you will, the old days. But like I'm a developer or team develop, why should I have to learn the management layer of Azure? >> That's exactly what we started, you know, out with to solve. So it's, what we have built is a platform and the platform sits inside the cloud. And customers are able to build their own network or a virtual network on top using that platform. So the platform has its own data plane, own control plane and management plane with a policy layer on top of it. So now, it's the platform which is sitting in different clouds, but from a customer's point of view, it's one way of doing networking. One way of instantiating or bringing in services or security services in the middle. Whether those are our security services or whether those are like services from our partners, like Palo Alto or Checkpoint or Cisco. >> So you guys brought the SD-WAN mojo and refactored it for the cloud it sounds like. >> No. >> No? (chuckles) >> We cannot said. >> All right, explain. >> It's way more than that. >> I mean, SD-WAN was wan. I mean, you're talking about wide area networks, talking about connected, so explain the difference. >> SD-WAN was primarily done for one major reason. MPLS was expensive, very strong SLAs, but very low speed. Internet, on the other hand, you sat at home and you could access your applications much faster. No SLA, very low cost, right? So we wanted to marry the two together so you could have a purely private infrastructure and a public infrastructure and secure both of them by creating a common secure fabric across all those environments. And then seamlessly tying it into your internal branch and data center and cloud network. So, it merely brought you to the edge of the cloud. It didn't do anything inside the cloud. Now, the major problem resides inside the clouds where you have to optimize the clouds themselves. Take a step back. How were the clouds built? Basically, the cloud providers went to the Ciscos and Junipers and the rest of the world, built the network in the data centers or across wide area infrastructure, and brought it all together and tried to create a virtualized layer on top of that. But there were many limitations of this underlying infrastructure that they had built. So number of routes per region, how inter region connectivity worked, or how many routes you could carry to the VPCs of V nets? That all those were becoming no common policy across, you know, these environments, no segmentation across these environments, right? So the networking constructs that the enterprise customers were used to as enterprise class carry class capabilities, they did not exist in the cloud. So what did the customer do? They ended up stitching it together all manually. And that's why Atif was alluding to earlier that it became a spaghetti mess for the customers. And then what happens is, as a result, day two operations, you know, troubleshooting, everything becomes a nightmare. So what do you do? You have to build an infrastructure inside the cloud. Cloud has enough raw capabilities to build the solutions inside there. Netflix's of the world. And many different companies have been born in the cloud and evolved from there. So why could we not take the raw capabilities of the clouds and build a network cloud or a supercloud on top of these clouds to optimize the whole infrastructure and seamlessly connecting it into the on-premise and remote user locations, right? So that's your, you know, hybrid multi-cloud solution. >> Well, great call out on the SD-WAN in common versus cloud. 'Cause I think this is important because you're building a network layer in the cloud that spans out so the customers don't have to get into the, there's a gap in the system that I'm used to, my operating environment, of having lockdown security and network. >> So yeah. So what you do is you use the raw capabilities like bandwidth or virtual machines, or you know, containers, or, you know, different types of serverless capabilities. And you bring it all together in a way to solve the networking problems, thereby creating a supercloud, which is an abstraction layer which hides all the complexity of the underlying clouds from the customer, right? And it provides a common infrastructure across all environments to that customer, right? That's the beauty of it. And it does it in a way that it looks like, if they have the networking knowledge, they can apply it to this new environment and carry it forward. One way of doing security across all clouds and hybrid environments. One way of doing routing. One way of doing large-scale network address translation. One way of doing IPAM services. So people are tired of doing individual things and individual clouds and on-premise locations, right? So now they're getting something common. >> You guys brought that, you brought all that to bear and flexible for the customer to essentially self-serve their network cloud. >> Yes, yeah. Is that the wave? >> And nowadays, from business perspective, agility is the key, right? You have to move at the pace of the business. If you don't, you are losing. >> So, would it be safe to say that you guys have a network supercloud? >> Absolutely, yeah. >> We, pretty much, yeah. Absolutely. >> What does that mean to our customer? What's in it for them? What's the benefit to the customer? I got a network supercloud, it connects, provides SLA, all the capabilities I need. What do they get? What's the end point for them? What's the end? >> Atif, maybe you can talk some examples. >> The IT infrastructure is all like distributed now, right? So you have applications running in data centers. You have applications running in one cloud. Other cloud, public clouds, enterprises are depending on so many SaaS applications. So now, these are, you can call these endpoints. So a supercloud or a network cloud, from our perspective, it's a cloud in the middle or a network in the middle, which provides connectivity from any endpoint to any endpoint. So, you are able to connect to the supercloud or network cloud in one way no matter where you are. So now, whichever cloud you are in, whichever cloud you need to connect to. And also, it's not just connecting to the cloud. So you need to do a lot of stuff, a lot of networking inside the cloud also. So now, as Amir was saying, every cloud has its own from a networking, you know, the concept perspective or the construct, they are different. There are limitations in there also. So this supercloud, which is sitting on top, basically, your platform is sitting into the cloud, but the supercloud is built on top of using your platform. So that abstracts all those complexities, all those limitations. So now your limitations are whatever the limitations of that platform are. So now your platform, that platform is in our control. So we can keep building it, we can keep scaling it horizontally. Because one of the things is that, you know, in this cloud era, one of the things is autoscaling these services. So why can't the network now autoscale also, just like your other services. >> Network autoscaling is a genius idea, and I think that's a killer. I want to ask the the follow on question because I think, first of all, I love what you guys are doing. So, I think it's a great example of this new innovation. It's not obvious until you see it, right? Geographical is huge. So, you know, single instance, global instances, multiple instances, you're seeing global. How do you guys look at that global equation? Because as companies expand their clouds into geos, and then ultimately, you know, it's obviously continent, region and locales. You're going to have geographic issues. So, this is an extension of your network cloud? >> Amir: It is the extension of the network cloud because if you look at this hyperscalers, they're sitting pretty much everywhere in the globe. So, wherever their regions are, the beauty of building a supercloud is that you can by definition, be available in those regions. It literally takes a day or two of testing for our stack to run in those regions, to make sure there are no nuances that we run into, you know, for that region. The moment we bring it up in that region, all customers can onboard into that solution. So literally, what used to take months or years to build a global infrastructure, now, you can configure it in 10 minutes basically, and bring it up in less than one hour. Since when did we see any solution- >> And by the way, >> that can come up with. >> when the edge comes out too, you're going to start to see more clouds get bolted on. >> Exactly. And you can expand to the edge of the network. That's why we call cloud the new edge, right? >> John: Yeah, it is. Now, I think you guys got a good solutions, network clouds, superclouds, good. So the question on the premise side, so I get the cloud play. It's very cool. You can expand out. It's a nice layer. I'm sure you manage the SLAs between latency and all kinds of things. Knowing when not to do things. Physics or physics. Okay. Now, you've got the on-premise. What's the on-premise equation look like? >> So on-premise, the kind of customers, we are working with large enterprises, mid-size enterprises. So they have on-prem networks, they have deployed, in many cases, they have deployed SD-WAN. In many cases, they have MPLS. They have data centers also. And a lot of these companies are, you know, moving the applications from the data center into the cloud. But we still have large enterprise- >> But for you guys, you can sit there too with non server or is it a box or what is it? >> It's a software stack, right? So, we are a software company. >> Okay, so no box. >> No box. >> Okay, got it. >> No box. >> It's even better. So, we can connect any, as I mentioned, any endpoint, whether it's data centers. So, what happens is usually these enterprises from the data centers- >> John: It's a cloud endpoint for you. >> Cloud endpoint for us. And they need highspeed connectivity into the cloud. And our network cloud is sitting inside the or supercloud is sitting inside the cloud. So we need highspeed connectivity from the data centers. This is like multi-gig type of connectivity. So we enable that connectivity as a service. And as Amir was saying, you are able to bring it up in minutes, pretty much. >> John: Well, you guys have a great handle on supercloud. I really appreciate you guys coming on. I have to ask you guys, since you have so much experience in the industry, multiple inflection points you've guys lived through and we're all old, and we can remember those glory days. What's the big deal going on right now? Because you can connect the dots and you can imagine, okay, like a Lambda function spinning up some connectivity. I need instant access to a new route, throw some, I need to send compute to an edge point for process data. A lot of these kind of ad hoc services are going to start flying around, which used to be manually configured as you guys remember. >> Amir: And that's been the problem, right? The shadow IT, that was the biggest problem in the enterprise environment. So that's what we are trying to get the customers away from. Cloud teams came in, individuals or small groups of people spun up instances in the cloud. It was completely disconnected from the on-premise environment or the existing IT environment that the customer had. So, how do you bring it together? And that's what we are trying to solve for, right? At a large scale, in a carrier cloud center (indistinct). >> What do you call that? Shift right or shift left? Shift left is in the cloud native world security. >> Amir: Yes. >> Networking and security, the two hottest areas. What are you shifting? Up or down? I mean, the network's moving up the stack. I mean, you're seeing the run times at Kubernetes later' >> Amir: Right, right. It's true we're end-to-end virtualization. So you have plumbing, which is the physical infrastructure. Then on top of that, now for the first time, you have true end-to-end virtualization, which the cloud-like constructs are providing to us. We tried to virtualize the routers, we try to virtualize instances at the server level. Now, we are bringing it all together in a truly end-to-end virtualized manner to connect any endpoint anywhere across the globe. Whether it's on-premise, home, multiple clouds, or SaaS type environments. >> Yeah. If you talk about the technical benefits beyond virtualizations, you kind of see in virtualization be abstracted away. So you got end-to-end virtualization, but you don't need to know virtualization to take advantage of it. >> Exactly. Exactly. >> What are some of the tech involved where, what's the trend around on top of virtual? What's the easy button for that? >> So there are many, many use cases from the customers and they're, you know, some of those use cases, they used to deliver out of their data centers before. So now, because you, know, it takes a long time to spend something up in the data center and stuff. So the trend is and what enterprises are looking for is agility. And to achieve that agility, they are moving those services or those use cases into the cloud. So another technical benefit of like something like a supercloud and what we are doing is we allow customers to, you know, move their services from existing data centers into the cloud as well. And I'll give you some examples. You know, these enterprises have, you know, tons of partners. They provide connectivity to their partners, to select resources. It used to happen inside the data center. You would bring in connectivity into the data center and apply like tons of ACLs and whatnot to make sure that you are able to only connect. And now those use cases are, they need to be enabled inside the cloud. And the customer's customers are also, it's not just coming from the on-prem, they're coming from the cloud as well. So, if they're coming from the cloud as well as from on-prem, so you need like an infrastructure like supercloud, which is sitting inside the cloud and is able to handle all these use cases. So all of these use cases have to be, so that requires like moving those services from the data center into the cloud or into the supercloud. So, they're, oh, as we started building this service over the last four years, we have come across so many use cases. And to deliver those use cases, you have to have a platform. So you have to have your own platform because otherwise you are depending on somebody else's, you know, capabilities. And every time their capabilities change, you have to change. >> John: I'm glad you brought up the platform 'cause I want to get your both reaction to this. So Bob Muglia just said on theCUBE here at Supercloud, that supercloud is a platform that provides programmatically consistent services hosted on heterogeneous cloud providers. So the question is, is supercloud a platform or an architecture in your view? >> That's an interesting view on things, you know? I mean, if you think of it, you have to design or architect a solution before we turn it into a platform. >> John: It's a trick question actually. >> So it's a, you know, so we look at it as that you have to have an architectural approach end to end, right? And then you build a solution based on that approach. So, I don't think that they are mutually exclusive. I think they go hand in hand. It's an architecture that you turn into a solution and provide that agility and high availability and disaster recovery capability that it built into that. >> It's interesting that these definitions might be actually redefined with this new configuration. >> Amir: Yes. >> Because architecture and platform used to mean something, like, aight here's a platform, you buy this platform. >> And then you architecture solution. >> Architect it via vendor. >> Right, right, right. >> Okay. And they have to deal with that architecture in the place of multiple superclouds. If you have too many stove pipes, then what's the purpose of supercloud? >> Right, right, right. And because, you know, historically, you built a router and you sold it to the customer. And the poor customer was supposed to install it all, you know, and interconnect all those things. And if you have 40, 50,000 router network, which we saw in our lifetime, 'cause there used to be many more branches when we were growing up in the networking industry, right? You had to create hierarchy and all kinds of things to figure out how to solve that problem. We are no longer living in that world anymore. You cannot deploy individual virtual instances. And that's what approach a lot of people are taking, which is a pure overly network. You cannot take that approach anymore. You have to evolve the architecture and then build the solution based on that architecture so that it becomes a platform which is readily available, highly scalable, and available. And at the same time, it's very, very easy to deploy. It's a SaaS type solution, right? >> So you're saying, do the architecture to get the solution for the platform that the customer has. >> Amir: Yes. >> They're not buying a platform, they end up with a platform- >> With the platform. >> as a result of Supercloud path. All right. So that's what's, so you mentioned, that's a great point. I want to double click on what you just said. 'Cause I like that what you said. What's the deployment strategy in your mind for supercloud? I'm an architect. I'm at an enterprise in the Midwest. I'm an insurance company, got some cloud action going on. I'm mostly on-premise. I've got the mandate to transform the company. We have apps. We'll be fully transformed in five years. What's my strategy? What do I do? >> Amir: The resources. >> What's the deployment strategy? Single global instance, code in every region, on every cloud? >> It needs to be a solution which is available as a SaaS service, right? So from the customer's perspective, they are onboarding into the supercloud. And then the supercloud is allowing them to do whatever they used to do, you know, historically and in the new world, right? That needs to come together. And that's what we have built is that, we have brought everything together in a way that what used to take months or years, and now taking an hour or two hours, and then people test it for a week or so and deploy it in production. >> I want to bring up something we were talking about before we were on camera about the TCP/IP, the OSI model. That was a concept that destroyed the proprietary narcissist. Work operating systems of the mini computers, which brought in an era of tech prosperity for generations. TCP/IP was kind of the magical moment that allowed for that kind of super networking connection. Inter networking is what's called as a category. It feels like something's going on here with supercloud. The way you describe it, it feels like there's this unification idea. Like the reality is we've got multiple stuff sitting around by default, you either clean it up or get rid of it, right? Or it's almost a, it's either a nuance, a new nuisance or chaos. >> Yeah. And we live in the new world now. We don't have the luxury of time. So we need to move as fast as possible to solve the business problems. And that's what we are running into. If we don't have automated solutions which scale, which solve our problems, then it's going to be a problem. And that's why SaaS is so important in today's world. Why should we have to deploy the network piecemeal? Why can't we have a solution? We solve our problem as we move forward and we accomplish what we need to accomplish and move forward. >> And we don't really need standards here, dude. It's not that we need a standards body if you have unification. >> So because things move so fast, there's no time to create a standards body. And that's why you see companies like ours popping up, which are trying to create a common infrastructure across all clouds. Otherwise if we vent the standardization path may take long. Eventually, we should be going in that direction. But we don't have the luxury of time. That's what I was trying to get to. >> Well, what's interesting is, is that to your point about standards and ratification, what ratifies a defacto anything? In the old days there was some technical bodies involved, but here, I think developers drive everything. So if you look at the developers and how they're voting with their code. They're instantly, organically defining everything as a collective intelligence. >> And just like you're putting out the paper and making it available, everybody's contributing to that. That's why you need to have APIs and terra form type constructs, which are available so that the customers can continue to improve upon that. And that's the Net DevOps, right? So that you need to have. >> What was once sacrilege, just sayin', in business school, back in the days when I got my business degree after my CS degree was, you know, no one wants to have a better mousetrap, a bad business model to have a better mouse trap. In this case, the better mouse trap, the better solution actually could be that thing. >> It is that thing. >> I mean, that can trigger, tips over the industry. >> And that that's where we are seeing our customers. You know, I mean, we have some publicly referenceable customers like Coke or Warner Music Group or, you know, multiple others and chart industries. The way we are solving the problem. They have some of the largest environments in the industry from the cloud perspective. And their whole network infrastructure is running on the Alkira infrastructure. And they're able to adopt new clouds within days rather than waiting for months to architect and then deploy and then figure out how to manage it and operate it. It's available as a service. >> John: And we've heard from your customer, Warner, they were just on the program. >> Amir: Yes. Okay, okay. >> So they're building a supercloud. So superclouds aren't just for tech companies. >> Amir: No. >> You guys build a supercloud for networking. >> Amir: It is. >> But people are building their own superclouds on top of all this new stuff. Talk about that dynamic. >> Healthcare providers, financials, high-tech companies, even startups. One of our startup customers, Tekion, right? They have these dealerships that they provide sales and support services to across the globe. And for them to be able to onboard those dealerships, it is 80% less time to production. That is real money, right? So, maybe Atif can give you a lot more examples of customers who are deploying. >> Talk about some of the customer activity. What are they like? Are they laggards, they innovators? Are they trying to hit the easy button? Are they coming in late or are you got some high customers? >> Actually most of our customers, all of our customers or customers in general. I don't think they have a choice but to move in this direction because, you know, the cloud has, like everything is quick now. So the cloud teams are moving faster in these enterprises. So now that they cannot afford the network nor to keep up pace with the cloud teams. So, they don't have a choice but to go with something similar where you can, you know, build your network on demand and bring up your network as quickly as possible to meet all those use cases. So, I'll give you an example. >> John: So the demand's high for what you guys do. >> Demand is very high because the cloud teams have- >> John: Yeah. They're going fast. >> They're going fast and there's no stopping. And then network teams, they have to keep up with them. And you cannot keep deploying, you know, networks the way you used to deploy back in the day. And as far as the use cases are concerned, there are so many use cases which our customers are using our platform for. One of the use cases, I'll give you an example of these financial customers. Some of the financial customers, they have their customers who they provide data, like stock exchanges, that provide like market data information to their customers out of data centers part. But now, their customers are moving into the cloud as well. So they need to come in from the cloud. So when they're coming in from the cloud, you cannot be giving them data from your data center because that takes time, and your hair pinning everything back. >> Moving data is like moving, moving money, someone said. >> Exactly. >> Exactly. And the other thing is like you have to optimize your traffic flows in the cloud as well because every time you leave the cloud, you get charged a lot. So, you don't want to leave the cloud unless you have to leave the cloud, your traffic. So, you have to come up or use a service which allows you to optimize all those traffic flows as well, you know? >> My final question to you guys, first of all, thanks for coming on Supercloud Program. Really appreciate it. Congratulations on your success. And you guys have a great positioning and I'm a big fan. And I have to ask, you guys are agile, nimble startup, smart on the cutting edge. Supercloud concept seems to resonate with people who are kind of on the front range of this major wave. While all the incumbents like Cisco, Microsoft, even AWS, they're like, I think they're looking at it, like what is that? I think it's coming up really fast, this trend. Because I know people talk about multi-cloud, I get that. But like, this whole supercloud is not just SaaS, it's more going on there. What do you think is going on between the folks who get it, supercloud, get the concept, and some are who are scratching their heads, whether it's the Ciscos or someone, like I don't get it. Why is supercloud important for the folks that aren't really seeing it? >> So first of all, I mean, the customers, what we saw about six months, 12 months ago, were a little slower to adopt the supercloud kind of concept. And there were leading edge customers who were coming and adopting it. Now, all of a sudden, over the last six to nine months, we've seen a flurry of customers coming in and they are from all disciplines or all very diverse set of customers. And they're starting to see the value of that because of the practical implications of what they're doing. You know, these shadow IT type environments are no longer working and there's a lot of pressure from the management to move faster. And then that's where they're coming in. And perhaps, Atif, if you can give a few examples of. >> Yeah. And I'll also just add to your point earlier about the network needing to be there 'cause the cloud teams are like, let's go faster. And the network's always been slow because, but now, it's been almost turbocharged. >> Atif: Yeah. Yeah, exactly. And as I said, like there was no choice here. You had to move in this industry. And the other thing I would add a little bit is now if you look at all these enterprises, most of their traffic is from, even from which is coming from the on-prem, it's going to the cloud SaaS applications or public clouds. And it's more than 50% of traffic, which is leaving your, you know, what you used to call, your network or the private network. So now it's like, you know, before it used to just connect sites to data centers and sites together. Now, it's a cloud as well as the SaaS application. So it's either internet bound or the public cloud bound. So now you have to build a network quickly, which caters to all these use cases. And that's where like something- >> And you guys, your solution to me is you eliminate all that work for the customer. Now, they can treat the cloud like a bag of Legos. And do their thing. Well, I oversimplify. Well, you know I'm talking about. >> Atif: Right, exactly. >> And to answer your question earlier about what about the big companies coming in and, you know, now they slow to adopt? And, you know, what normally happens is when Cisco came up, right? There used to be 16 different protocols suites. And then we finally settled on TCP/IP and DECnet or AppleTalk or X&S or, you know, you name it, right? Those companies did not adapt to the networking the way it was supposed to be done. And guess what happened, right? So if the companies in the networking space do not adopt this new concept or new way of doing things, I think some of them will become extinct over time. >> Well, I think the force and function too is the cloud teams as well. So you got two evolutions. You got architectural relevance. That's real as impact. >> It's very important. >> Cost, speed. >> And I look at it as a very similar disruption to what Cisco's the world, very early days did to, you know, bring the networking out, right? And it became the internet. But now we are going through the cloud. It's the cloud era, right? How does the cloud evolve over the next 10, 15, 20 years? Everything's is going to be offered as a service, right? So slowly data centers go away, the network becomes a plumbing thing. Very, you know, simple to deploy. And everything on top of that is virtualized in the cloud-like manners. >> And that makes the networks hardened and more secure. >> More secure. >> It's a great way to be secure. You remember the glory days, we'll go back 15 years. The Cisco conversation was, we got to move up to stack. All the manager would fight each other. Now, what does that actually mean? Stay where we are. Stay in your lane. This is kind of like the network's version of moving up the stack because not so much up the stack, but the cloud is everywhere. It's almost horizontally scaled. >> It's extending into the on-premise. It is already moving towards the edge, right? So, you will see a lot- >> So, programmability is a big program. So you guys are hitting programmability, compatibility, getting people into an environment they're comfortable operating. So the Ops people love it. >> Exactly. >> Spans the clouds to a level of SLA management. It might not be perfectly spanning applications, but you can actually know latencies between clouds, measure that. And then so you're basically managing your network now as the overall infrastructure. >> Right. And it needs to be a very intelligent infrastructure going forward, right? Because customers do not want to wait to be able to troubleshoot. They don't want to be able to wait to deploy something, right? So, it needs to be a level of automation. >> Okay. So the question for you guys both on we'll end on is what is the enablement that, because you guys are a disruptive enabler, right? You create this fabric. You're going to enable companies to do stuff. What are some of the things that you see and your customers might be seeing as things that they're going to do as a result of having this enablement? So what are some of those things? >> Amir: Atif, perhaps you can talk through the some of the customer experience on that. >> It's agility. And we are allowing these customers to move very, very quickly and build these networks which meet all these requirements inside the cloud. Because as Amir was saying, in the cloud era, networking is changing. And if you look at, you know, going back to your comment about the existing networking vendors. Some of them still think that, you know, just connecting to the cloud using some concepts like Cloud OnRamp is cloud networking, but it's changing now. >> John: 'Cause there's apps that are depending upon. >> Exactly. And it's all distributed. Like IT infrastructure, as I said earlier, is all distributed. And at the end of the day, you have to make sure that wherever your user is, wherever your app is, you are able to connect them securely. >> Historically, it used to be about building a router bigger and bigger and bigger and bigger, you know, and then interconnecting those routers. Now, it's all about horizontal scale. You don't need to build big, you need to scale it, right? And that's what cloud brings to the customer. >> It's a cultural change for Cisco and Juniper because they have to understand that they're still could be in the game and still win. >> Exactly. >> The question I have for you, what are your customers telling you that, what's some of the anecdotal, like, 'cause you guys have a good solution, is it, "Oh my god, you guys saved my butt." Or what are some of the commentary that you hear from the customers in terms of praise and and glory from your solution? >> Oh, some even say, when we do our demo and stuff, they say it's too hard to believe. >> Believe. >> Like, too hard. It's hard, you know, it's >> I dont believe you. They're skeptics. >> I don't believe you that because now you're able to bring up a global network within minutes. With networking services, like let's say you have APAC, you know, on-prem users, cloud also there, cloud here, users here, you can bring up a global network with full routed connectivity between all these endpoints with security services. You can bring up like a firewall from a third party or our services in the middle. This is a matter of minutes now. And this is all high speed connectivity with SLAs. Imagine like before connecting, you know, Singapore to U.S. East or Hong Kong to Frankfurt, you know, if you were putting your infrastructure in columns like E-connects, you would have to go, you know, figure out like, how am I going to- >> Seal line In, connect to it? Yeah. A lot of hassles, >> If you had to put like firewalls in the middle, segmentation, you had to, you know, isolate different entities. >> That's called heavy lifting. >> So what you're seeing is, you know, it's like customer comes in, there's a disbelief, can you really do that? And then they try it out, they go, "Wow, this works." Right? It's deployed in a small environment. And then all of a sudden they start taking off, right? And literally we have seen customers go from few thousand dollars a month or year type deployments to multi-million dollars a year type deployments in very, very short amount of time, in a few months. >> And you guys are pay as you go? >> Pay as you go. >> Pay as go usage cloud-based compatibility. >> Exactly. And it's amazing once they get to deploy the solution. >> What's the variable on the cost? >> On the cost? >> Is it traffic or is it. >> It's multiple different things. It's packaged into the overall solution. And as a matter of fact, we end up saving a lot of money to the customers. And not only in one way, in multiple different ways. And we do a complete TOI analysis for the customers. So it's bandwidth, it's number of connections, it's the amount of compute power that we are using. >> John: Similar things that they're used to. >> Just like the cloud constructs. Yeah. >> All right. Networking supercloud. Great. Congratulations. >> Thank you so much. >> Thanks for coming on Supercloud. >> Atif: Thank you. >> And looking forward to seeing more of the demand. Translate, instant networking. I'm sure it's going to be huge with the edge exploding. >> Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. >> Congratulations. >> Thank you so much. >> Thank you so much. >> Okay. So this is Supercloud 2 event here in Palo Alto. I'm John Furrier. The network Supercloud is here. Checkout Alkira. I'm John Furry, the host. Thanks for watching. (lively music)

(calm music) >> Hi everybody. We're here at VeeamON 2022. This is day two of the CUBE's continuous coverage. I'm Dave Vellante. My co-host is Dave Nicholson. A ton of energy. The keynotes, day two keynotes are all about products at Veeam. Veeam, the color of green, same color as money. And so, and it flows in this ecosystem. I'll tell you right now, Michael Cade is here. He's the senior technologist for product strategy at Veeam. Michael, fresh off the keynotes. >> Yeah, yeah. >> Welcome. Danny Allen's keynote was fantastic. I mean, that story he told blew me away. I can't wait to have him back. Stay tuned for that one. But we're going to talk about protecting containers, Kasten. You guys got announcements of Kasten by Veeam, you call it K10 version five, I think? >> Yeah. So just rolled into 5.0 release this week. Now, it's a bit different to what we see from a VBR release cycle kind of thing, cause we're constantly working on a two week sprint cycle. So as much as 5.0's been launched and announced, we're going to see that trickling out over the next couple of months until we get round to Cube (indistinct) and we do all of this again, right? >> So let's back up. I first bumped into Kasten, gosh, it was several years ago at VeeamON. Like, wow this is a really interesting company. I had deep conversations with them. They had a sheer, sheer cat grin, like something was going on and okay finally you acquire them, but go back a little bit of history. Like why the need for this? Containers used to be ephemeral. You know, you didn't have to persist them. That changed, but you guys are way ahead of that trend. Talk a little bit more about the history there and then we'll get into current day. >> Yeah, I think the need for stateful workloads within Kubernetes is absolutely grown. I think we just saw 1.24 of Kubernetes get released last week or a couple of weeks ago now. And really the focus there, you can see, at least three of the big ticket items in that release are focused around storage and data. So it just encourages that the community is wanting to put these data services within that. But it's also common, right? It's great to think about a stateless... If you've got stateless application but even a web server's got some state, right? There's always going to be some data associated to an application. And if there isn't then like, great but that doesn't really work- >> You're right. Where'd they click, where'd they go? I mean little things like that, right? >> Yeah. Yeah, exactly. So one of the things that we are seeing from that is like obviously the requirement to back up and put in a lot of data services in there, and taking full like exposure of the Kubernetes ecosystem, HA, and very tiny containers versus these large like virtual machines that we've always had the story at Veeam around the portability and being able to move them left, right, here, there, and everywhere. But from a K10 point of view, the ability to not only protect them, but also move those applications or move that data wherever they need to be. >> Okay. So, and Kubernetes of course has evolved. I mean the early days of Kubernetes, they kept it simple, kind of like Veeam actually. Right? >> Yeah. >> And then, you know, even though Mesosphere and even Docker Swarm, they were trying to do more sophisticated cluster management. Kubernetes has now got projects getting much more complicated. So more complicated workloads mean more data, more critical data means more protection. Okay, so you acquire Kasten, we know that's a small part of your business today but it's going to be growing. We know this cause everybody's developing applications. So what's different about protecting containers? Danny talks about modern data protection. Okay, when I first heard that, I'm like, eh, nice tagline, but then he peel the onion. He explains how in virtualization, you went from agents to backing up of VMware instance, a virtual instance. What's different about containers? What constitutes modern data protection for containers? >> Yeah, so I think the story that Danny tells as well, is so when we had our physical agents and virtualization came along and a lot of... And this is really where Veeam was born, right, we went into the virtualization API, the VMware API, and we started leveraging that to be more storage efficient. The admin overhead around those agents weren't there then, we could just back up using the API. Whereas obviously a lot of our competition would use agents still and put that resource overhead on top of that. So that's where Veeam initially got the kickstart in that world. I think it's very similar to when it comes to Kubernetes because K10 is deployed within the Kubernetes cluster and it leverages the Kubernetes API to pull out that data in a more efficient way. You could use image based backups or traditional NAS based backups to protect some of the data, and backup's kind of the... It's only one of the ticks in the boxes, right? You have to be able to restore and know what that data is. >> But wait, your competitors aren't as fat, dumb and happy today as they were back then, right? So it can't... They use the same APIs and- >> Yeah. >> So what makes you guys different? >> So I think that's testament to the Kubernetes and the community behind that and things like the CSI driver, which enables the storage vendors to take that CSI abstraction layer and then integrate their storage components, their snapshot technologies, and other efficiency models in there, and be able to leverage that as part of a universal data protection API. So really that's one tick in the box and you're absolutely right, there's open source tools that can do exactly what we're doing to a degree on that backup and recovery. Where it gets really interesting is the mobility of data and how we're protecting that. Because as much as stateful workloads are seen within the Kubernetes environments now, they're also seen outside. So things like Amazon RDS, but the front end lives in Kubernetes going to that stateless point. But being able to protect the whole application and being very application aware means that we can capture everything and restore wherever we want that to go as well. Like, so the demo that I just did was actually a Postgres database in AWS, and us being able to clone or migrate that out into an EKS cluster as a staple set. So again, we're not leveraging RDS at that point, but it gives us the freedom of movement of that data. >> Yeah, I want to talk about that, what you actually demoed. One of the interesting things, we were talking earlier, I didn't see any CLI when you were going through the integration of K10 V5 and V12. >> Yeah. >> That was very interesting, but I'm more skeptical of this concept, of the single pane of glass and how useful that is. Who is this integration targeting? Are you targeting the sort of traditional Veeam user who is now adding as a responsibility, the management of protecting these Kubernetes environments? Or are you at the same time targeting the current owners of those environments? Cause I know you talk about shift left and- >> Yeah. >> You know, nobody needs Kubernetes if you only have one container and one thing you're doing. So at some point it's all about automation, it's about blueprints, it's about getting those things in early. So you get up, you talk about this integration, who cares about that kind of integration? >> Yeah, so I think it's a bit of both, right? So we're definitely focused around the DevOps focused engineer. Let's just call it that. And under an umbrella, the cloud engineer that's looking after Kubernetes, from an application delivery perspective. But I think more and more as we get further up the mountain, CIS admin, obviously who we speak to the tech decision makers, the solutions architects systems engineers, they're going to inherit and be that platform operator around the Kubernetes clusters. And they're probably going to land with the requirement around data management as well. So the specific VBR centralized management is very much for the backup admin, the infrastructure admin or the cloud based engineer that's looking after the Kubernetes cluster and the data within that. Still we speak to app developers who are conscious of what their database looks like, because that's an external data service. And the biggest question that we have or the biggest conversation we have with them is that the source code, the GitHub or the source repository, that's fine, that will get your... That'll get some of the way back up and running, but when it comes to a Postgres database or some sort of data service, oh, that's out of the CI/CD pipeline. So it's whether they're interested in that or whether that gets farmed out into another pre-operations, the traditional operations team. >> So I want to unpack your press release a little bit. It's full of all the acronyms, so maybe you can help us- >> Sure. >> Cipher. You got security everywhere enhance platform hardening, including KMS. That's key- >> Yeah, key management service, yeah. >> System, okay. With AWS, KMS and HashiCorp vault. Awesome, love to see HashiCorp company. >> Yeah. >> RBAC objects in UI dashboards, ransomware attacks, AWS S3. So anyway, security everywhere. What do you mean by that? >> So I think traditionally at Veeam, and continue that, right? From a security perspective, if you think about the failure scenario and ransomware's, the hot topic, right, when it comes to security, but we can think about security as, if we think about that as the bang, right, the bang is something bad's happen, fire, flood, blood, type stuff. And we tend to be that right hand side of that, we tend to be the remediation. We're definitely the one, the last line of defense to get stuff back when something really bad happens. And I think what we've done from a K10 point of view, is not only enhance that, so with the likes of being able to... We're not going to reinvent the wheel, let's use the services that HashiCorp have done from a HashiCorp vault point of view and integrate from a key management system. But then also things like S3 or ransomware prevention. So I want to know if something bad's happened and Kasten actually did something more generic from a Veeam ONE perspective, but one of the pieces that we've seen since we've then started to send our backups to an immutable object storage, is let's be more of that left as well and start looking at the preventative tasks that we can help with. Now, we're not going to be a security company, but you heard all the way through Danny's like keynote, and probably when he is been on here, is that it's always, we're always mindful of that security focus. >> On that point, what was being looked for? A spike in CPU utilization that would be associated with encryption? >> Yeah, exactly that. >> Is that what was being looked- >> That could be... Yeah, exactly that. So that could be from a virtual machine point of view but from a K10, and it specifically is that we're going to look at the S3 bucket or the object storage, we're going to see if there's a rate of change that's out of the normal. It's an abnormal rate. And then with that, we can say, okay, that doesn't look right, alert us through observability tools, again, around the cloud native ecosystem, Prometheus Grafana. And then we're going to get insight into that before the bang happens, hopefully before the bang. >> So that's an interesting when we talk about adjacencies and moving into this area of security- >> We're talking to Zeus about that too. >> Exactly. That's that sort of creep where you can actually add value. It's interesting. >> So, okay. So we talked about shift left, get that, and then expanded ecosystem, industry leading technologies. By the way, one of them is the Red Hat Marketplace. And I think, I heard Anton's... Anton was amazing. He is the head of product management at Veeam. Is been to every VeeamON. He's got family in Ukraine. He's based in Switzerland. >> Yeah. >> But he chose not to come here because he's obviously supporting, you know, the carnage that's going on in Ukraine. But anyway, I think he said the Red Hat team is actually in Ukraine developing, you know, while the bombs are dropping. That's amazing. But anyway, back to our interview here, expanded ecosystem, Red Hat, SUSE with Rancher, they've got some momentum. vSphere with Tanzu, they're in the game. Talk about that ecosystem and its importance. >> Yeah, and I think, and it goes back to your point around the CLI, right? Is that it feels like the next stage of Kubernetes is going to be very much focused towards the operator or the operations team. The CIS admin of today is going to have to look after that. And at the moment it's all very command line, it's all CLI driven. And I think the marketplace is OpenShift, being our biggest foothold around our customer base, is definitely around OpenShift. But things like, obviously we are a longstanding alliance partner with VMware as well. So their Tanzu operations actually there's support for TKGS, so vSphere Tanzu grid services is another part of the big release of 5.0. But all three of those and the common marketplace gives us a UI, gives us a way of being able to see and visualize that rather than having to go and hunt down the commands and get our information through some- >> Oh, some people are going to be unhappy about that. >> Yeah. >> But I contend the human eye has evolved to see in color for a very good reason. So I want to see things in red, yellow, and green at times. >> There you go, yeah. >> So when we hear a company like Veeam talk about, look we have no platform agenda, we don't care which cloud it's in. We don't care if it's on-prem or Google Azure, AWS. We had Wasabi on, we have... Great, they got an S3 compatible, you know, target, and others as well. When we hear them, companies like you, talk about that consistent experience, single pane of glass that you're skeptical of, maybe cause it's technically challenging, one of the things, we call it super cloud, right, that's come up. Danny and I were riffing on that the other day and we'll do that more this afternoon. But it brings up something that we were talking about with Zeus, Dave, which is the edge, right? And it seems like Kubernetes, and we think about OpenShift. >> Yeah. >> We were there last week at Red Hat Summit. It's like 50% of the conversation, if not more, was the edge. Right, and really true edge, worst cases, use cases. Two weeks ago we were at Dell Tech, there was a lot of edge talk, but it was retail stores, like Lowe's. Okay, that's kind of near edge, but the far edge, we're talking space, right? So seems like Kubernetes fits there and OpenShift, you know, particularly, as well as some of the others that we mentioned. What about edge? How much of what you're doing with container data protection do you see as informing you about the edge opportunity? Are you seeing any patterns there? Nobody's really talking about it in data protection yet. >> So yeah, large scale numbers of these very small clusters that are out there on farms or in wind turbines, and that is definitely something that is being spoken about. There's not much mention actually in this 5.0 release because we actually support things like K3s,(indistinct), that all came in 4.5, but I think, to your first point as well, David, is that, look, we don't really care what that Kubernetes distribution is. So you've got K3s lightweight Kubernetes distribution, we support it, because it uses the same native Kubernetes APIs, and we get deployed inside of that. I think where we've got these large scale and large numbers of edge deployments of Kubernetes and that you require potentially some data management down there, and they might want to send everything into a centralized location or a more centralized location than a farm shed out in the country. I think we're going to see a big number of that. But then we also have our multi cluster dashboard that gives us the ability to centralize all of the control plane. So we don't have to go into each individual K10 deployment to manage those policies. We can have one big centralized management multi cluster dashboard, and we can set global policies there. So if you're running a database and maybe it's the same one across all of your different edge locations, where you could just set one policy to say I want to protect that data on an hourly basis, a daily basis, whatever that needs to be, rather than having to go into each individual one. >> And then send it back to that central repository. So that's the model that you see, you don't see the opportunity, at least at this point in time, of actually persisting it at the edge? >> So I think it depends. I think we see both, but again, that's the footprint. And maybe like you mentioned about up in space having a Kubernetes cluster up there. You don't really want to be sending up a NAS device or a storage device, right, to have to sit alongside it. So it's probably, but then equally, what's the art of the possible to get that back down to our planet, like as part of a consistent copy of data? >> Or even a farm or other remote locations. The question is, I mean, EVs, you know, we believe there's going to be tons of data, we just don't.. You think about Tesla as a use case, they don't persist a ton of their data. Maybe if a deer runs across, you know, the front of the car, oh, persist that, send that back to the cloud. >> I don't want anyone knowing my Tesla data. I'll tell you that right now. (all laughing) >> Well, there you go, that one too. All right, well, that's future discussion, we're still trying to squint through those patterns. I got so many questions for you, Michael, but we got to go. Thanks so much for coming to theCUBE. >> Always. >> Great job on the keynote today and good luck. >> Thank you. Thanks for having me. >> All right, keep it right there. We got a ton of product talk today. As I said, Danny Allan's coming back, we got the ecosystem coming, a bunch of the cloud providers. We have, well, iland was up on stage. They were just recently acquired by 11:11 Systems. They were an example today of a cloud service provider. We're going to unpack it all here on theCUBE at VeeamON 2022 from Las Vegas at the Aria. Keep it right there. (calm music)

(upbeat music) >> Welcome everyone to theCUBE's presentation of the AWS Startup Showcase Open Cloud Innovations. This is season two of the ongoing series. We're covering exciting start startups in the AWS ecosystem to talk about open source community stuff. I'm your host, Dave Nicholson. And I'm delighted today to have two guests from Weaveworks. Steve George, COO of Weaveworks, and Steve Waterworth, technical marketing engineer from Weaveworks. Welcome, gentlemen, how are you? >> Very well, thanks. >> Very well, thanks very much. >> So, Steve G., what's the relationship with AWS? This is the AWS Startup Showcase. How do Weaveworks and AWS interact? >> Yeah sure. So, AWS is a investor in Weaveworks. And we, actually, collaborate really closely around EKS and some specific EKS tooling. So, in the early days of Kubernetes when AWS was working on EKS, the Elastic Kubernetes Service, we started working on the command line interface for EKS itself. And due to that partnership, we've been working closely with the EKS team for a long period of time, helping them to build the CLI and make sure that users in the community find EKS really easy to use. And so that brought us together with the AWS team, working on GitOps and thinking about how to deploy applications and clusters using this GitOps approach. And we've built that into the EKS CLI, which is an open source tool, is a project on GitHub. So, everybody can get involved with that, use it, contribute to it. We love hearing user feedback about how to help teams take advantage of the elastic nature of Kubernetes as simply and easily as possible. >> Well, it's great to have you. Before we get into the specifics around what Weaveworks is doing in this area that we're about to discuss, let's talk about this concept of GitOps. Some of us may have gotten too deep into a Netflix series, and we didn't realize that we've moved on from the world of DevOps or DevSecOps and the like. Explain where GitOps fits into this evolution. >> Yeah, sure. So, really GitOps is an instantiation, a version of DevOps. And it fits within the idea that, particularly in the Kubernetes world, we have a model in Kubernetes, which tells us exactly what we want to deploy. And so what we're talking about is using Git as a way of recording what we want to be in the runtime environment, and then telling Kubernetes from the configuration that is stored in Git exactly what we want to deploy. So, in a sense, it's very much aligned with DevOps, because we know we want to bring teams together, help them to deploy their applications, their clusters, their environments. And really with GitOps, we have a specific set of tools that we can use. And obviously what's nice about Git is it's a very developer tool, or lots and lots of developers use it, the vast majority. And so what we're trying to do is bring those operational processes into the way that developers work. So, really bringing DevOps to that generation through that specific tooling. >> So Steve G., let's continue down this thread a little bit. Why is it necessary then this sort of added wrinkle? If right now in my organization we have developers, who consider themselves to be DevOps folks, and we give them Amazon gift cards each month. And we say, "Hey, it's a world of serverless, "no code, low code lights out data centers. "Go out and deploy your code. "Everything should be fine." What's the problem with that model, and how does GitOps come in and address that? >> Right. I think there's a couple of things. So, for individual developers, one of the big challenges is that, when you watch development teams, like deploying applications and running them, you watch them switching between all those different tabs, and services, and systems that they're using. So, GitOps has a real advantage to developers, because they're already sat in Git, they're already using their familiar tooling. And so by bringing operations within that developer tooling, you're giving them that familiarity. So, it's one advantage for developers. And then for operations staff, one of the things that it does is it centralizes where all of this configuration is kept. And then you can use things like templating and some other things that we're going to be talking about today to make sure that you automate and go quickly, but you also do that in a way which is reliable, and secure, and stable. So, it's really helping to bring that run fast, but don't break things kind of ethos to how we can deploy and run applications in the cloud. >> So, Steve W., let's start talking about where Weaveworks comes into the picture, and what's your perspective. >> So, yeah, Weaveworks has an engine, a set of software, that enables this to happen. So, think of it as a constant reconciliation engine. So, you've got your declared state, your desired state is declared in Git. So, this is where all your YAML for all your Kubernetes hangs out. And then you have an agent that's running inside Kubernetes, that's the Weaveworks GitOps agent. And it's constantly comparing the desired state in Git with the actual state, which is what's running in Kubernetes. So, then as a developer, you want to make a change, or an operator, you want to make a change. You push a change into Git. The reconciliation loop runs and says, "All right, what we've got in Git does not match "what we've got in Kubernetes. "Therefore, I will create story resource, whatever." But it also works the other way. So, if someone does directly access Kubernetes and make a change, then the next time that reconciliation loop runs, it's automatically reverted back to that single source of truth in Git. So, your Kubernetes cluster, you don't get any configuration drift. It's always configured as you desire it to be configured. And as Steve George has already said, from a developer or engineer point of view, it's easy to use. They're just using Git just as they always have done and continue to do. There's nothing new to learn. No change to working practices. I just push code into Git, magic happens. >> So, Steve W., little deeper dive on that. When we hear Ops, a lot of us start thinking about, specifically in terms of infrastructure, and especially since infrastructure when deployed and left out there, even though it's really idle, you're paying for it. So, anytime there's an Ops component to the discussion, cost and resource management come into play. You mentioned this idea of not letting things drift from a template. What are those templates based on? Are they based on... Is this primarily an infrastructure discussion, or are we talking about the code itself that is outside of the infrastructure discussion? >> It's predominantly around the infrastructure. So, what you're managing in Git, as far as Kubernetes is concerned, is always deployment files, and services, and horizontal pod autoscalers, all those Kubernetes entities. Typically, the source code for your application, be it in Java, Node.js, whatever it is you happen to be writing it in, that's, typically, in a separate repository. You, typically, don't combine the two. So, you've got one set of repository, basically, for building your containers, and your CLI will run off that, and ultimately push a container into a registry somewhere. Then you have a separate repo, which is your config. repo, which declares what version of the containers you're going to run, how many you're going to run, how the services are bound to those containers, et cetera. >> Yeah, that makes sense. Steve G., talk to us about this concept of trusted application delivery with GitOps, and frankly, it's what led to the sort of prior question. When you think about trusted application delivery, where is that intertwinement between what we think of as the application code versus the code that is creating the infrastructure? So, what is trusted application delivery? >> Sure, so, with GitOps, we have the ability to deploy the infrastructure components. And then we also define what the application containers are, that would go to be deployed into that environment. And so, this is a really interesting question, because some teams will associate all of the services that an application needs within an application team. And sometimes teams will deploy sort of horizontal infrastructure, which then all application teams services take advantage of. Either way, you can define that within your configuration, within your GitOps configuration. Now, when you start deploying speed, particularly when you have multiple different teams doing these sorts of deployments, one of the questions that starts to come up will be from the security team, or someone who's thinking about, well, what happens if we make a deployment, which is accidentally incorrect, or if there is a security issue in one of those dependencies, and we need to get a new version deployed as quickly as possible? And so, in the GitOps pipeline, one of the things that we can do is to put in various checkpoints to check that the policy is being followed correctly. So, are we deploying the right number of applications, the right configuration of an application? Does that application follow certain standards that the enterprise has set down? And that's what we talk about when we talk about trusted policy and trusted delivery. Because really what we're thinking about here is enabling the development teams to go as quickly as possible with their new deployments, but protecting them with automated guard rails. So, making sure that they can go fast, but they are not going to do anything which destroys the reliability of the application platform. >> Yeah, you've mentioned reliability and kind of alluded to scalability in the application environment. What about looking at this from the security perspective? There've been some recently, pretty well publicized breaches. Not a lot of senior executives in enterprises understand that a very high percentage of code that their businesses are running on is coming out of the open source community, where developers and maintainers are, to a certain degree, what they would consider to be volunteers. That can be a scary thing. So, talk about why an enterprise struggles today with security, policy, and governance. And I toss this out to Steve W. Or Steve George. Answer appropriately. >> I'll try that in a high level, and Steve W. can give more of the technical detail. I mean, I'll say that when I talk to enterprise customers, there's two areas of concern. One area of concern is that, we're in an environment with DevOps where we started this conversation of trying to help teams to go as quickly as possible. But there's many instances where teams accidentally do things, but, nonetheless, that is a security issue. They deploy something manually into an environment, they forget about it, and that's something which is wrong. So, helping with this kind of policy as code pipeline, ensuring that everything goes through a set of standards could really help teams. And that's why we call it developer guard rails, because this is about helping the development team by providing automation around the outside, that helps them to go faster and relieves them from that mental concern of have they made any mistakes or errors. So, that's one form. And then the other form is the form, where you are going, David, which is really around security dependencies within software, a whole supply chain of concern. And what we can do there, by, again, having a set of standard scanners and policy checking, which ensures that everything is checked before it goes into the environment. That really helps to make sure that there are no security issues in the runtime deployment. Steve W., anything that I missed there? >> Yeah, well, I'll just say, I'll just go a little deeper on the technology bit. So, essentially, we have a library of policies, which get you started. Of course, you can modify those policies, write your own. The library is there just to get you going. So, as a change is made, typically, via, say, a GitHub action, the policy engine then kicks in and checks all those deployment files, all those YAML for Kubernetes, and looks for things that then are outside of policy. And if that's the case, then the action will fail, and that'll show up on the pull request. So, things like, are your containers coming from trusted sources? You're not just pulling in some random container from a public registry. You're actually using a trusted registry. Things like, are containers running as route, or are they running in privileged mode, which, again, it could be a security? But it's not just about security, it can also be about coding standards. Are the containers correctly annotated? Is the deployment correctly annotated? Does it have the annotation fields that we require for our coding standards? And it can also be about reliability. Does the deployment script have the health checks defined? Does it have a suitable replica account? So, a rolling update. We'll actually do a rolling update. You can't do a rolling update with only one replica. So, you can have all these sorts of checks and guards in there. And then finally, there's an admission controller that runs inside Kubernetes. So, if someone does try and squeeze through, and do something a little naughty, and go directly to the cluster, it's not going to happen, 'cause that admission controller is going to say, "Hey, no, that's a policy violation. "I'm not letting that in." So, it really just stops. It stops developers making mistakes. I know, I know, I've done development, and I've deployed things into Kubernetes, and haven't got the conflict quite right, and then it falls flat on its face. And you're sitting there scratching your head. And with the policy checks, then that wouldn't happen. 'Cause you would try and put something in that has a slightly iffy configuration, and it would spit it straight back out at you. >> So, obviously you have some sort of policy engine that you're you're relying on. But what is the user experience like? I mean, is this a screen that is reminiscent of the matrix with non-readable characters streaming down that only another machine can understand? What does this look like to the operator? >> Yeah, sure, so, we have a console, a web console, where developers and operators can use a set of predefined policies. And so that's the starting point. And we have a set of recommendations there and policies that you can just attach to your deployments. So, set of recommendations about different AWS resources, deployment types, EKS deployment types, different sets of standards that your enterprise might be following along with. So, that's one way of doing it. And then you can take those policies and start customizing them to your needs. And by using GitOps, what we're aiming for here is to bring both the application configuration, the environment configuration. We talked about this earlier, all of this being within Git. We're adding these policies within Git as well. So, for advanced users, they'll have everything that they need together in a single unit of change, your application, your definitions of how you want to run this application service, and the policies that you want it to follow, all together in Git. And then when there is some sort of policy violation on the other end of the pipeline, people can see where this policy is being violated, how it was violated. And then for a set of those, we try and automate by showing a pull request for the user about how they can fix this policy violation. So, try and make it as simple as possible. Because in many of these sorts of violations, if you're a busy developer, there'll be minor configuration details going against the configuration, and you just want to fix those really quickly. >> So Steve W., is that what the Mega Leaks policy engine is? >> Yes, that's the Mega Leaks policy engine. So, yes, it's a SaaS-based service that holds the actual policy engine and your library of policies. So, when your GitHub action runs, it goes and essentially makes a call across with the configuration and does the check and spits out any violation errors, if there are any. >> So, folks in this community really like to try things before they deploy them. Is there an opportunity for people to get a demo of this, get their hands on it? what's the best way to do that? >> The best way to do it is have a play with it. As an engineer, I just love getting my hands dirty with these sorts of things. So, yeah, you can go to the Mega Leaks website and get a 30-day free trial. You can spin yourself up a little, test cluster, and have a play. >> So, what's coming next? We had DevOps, and then DevSecOps, and now GitOps. What's next? Are we going to go back to all infrastructure on premises all the time, back to waterfall? Back to waterfall, "Hot Tub Time Machine?" What's the prediction? >> Well, I think the thing that you set out right at the start, actually, is the prediction. The difference between infrastructure and applications is steadily going away, as we try and be more dynamic in the way that we deploy. And for us with GitOps, I think we're... When we talk about operations, there's a lots of depth to what we mean about operations. So, I think there's lots of areas to explore how to bring operations into developer tooling with GitOps. So, that's, I think, certainly where Weaveworks will be focusing. >> Well, as an old infrastructure guy myself, I see this as vindication. Because infrastructure still matters, kids. And we need sophisticated ways to make sure that the proper infrastructure is applied. People are shocked to learn that even serverless application environments involve servers. So, I tell my 14-year-old son this regularly, he doesn't believe it, but it is what it is. Steve W., any final thoughts on this whole move towards GitOps and, specifically, the Weaveworks secret sauce and superpower. >> Yeah. It's all about (indistinct)... It's all about going as quickly as possible, but without tripping up. Being able to run fast, but without tripping over your shoe laces, which you forgot to tie up. And that's what the automation brings. It allows you to go quickly, does lots of things for you, and yeah, we try and stop you shooting yourself in the foot as you're going. >> Well, it's been fantastic talking to both of you today. For the audience's sake, I'm in California, and we have a gentleman in France, and a gentlemen in the UK. It's just the wonders of modern technology never cease. Thanks, again, Steve Waterworth, Steve George from Weaveworks. Thanks for coming on theCUBE for the AWS Startup Showcase. And to the rest of us, keep it right here for more action on theCUBE, your leader in tech coverage. (upbeat music)

(bright music) >> Hi, everyone. Welcome to the CUBE's presentation of the AWS Startup Showcase around open cloud innovations. It's the season two episode one of the ongoing series covering exciting startups from the AWS ecosystem and talking about open source and innovation. I'm John Furrier, your host. Today, we're joined by two great guests. Dan Garfield, chief open source officer and co-founder of Codefresh IO, and Raziel Tabib, CEO and co-founder. Two co-founders in the middle of all the innovation. Gentlemen thanks for coming on. >> Thank you. >> So you guys have a great platform and as cloud native goes mainstream in the enterprise and for developers, the big topic is unification, end-to-end, horizontally scalable, leveraging data. All these things around agile that I call agile cloud next level. This is kind of what we're seeing. The CNCF is growing. You've seen KubeCon every year is more about these kinds of things. Words like orchestration, Kubernetes, container, security. All of those complexities are now at the center of making things easier for developers. This is a key value proposition and you guys at Codefresh are offering really the first enterprise delivery solution powered by Argo, which is an open source project. Again, open source driving really big changes. So let's get into it. And first of all, congratulations, and thanks for working on this project. What's so special about- >> Thank you for that. >> Argo the project, and why have you guys decided to build a platform on it, and where is this coming together? Take us through why this is so important. >> I think Argo has been a very fast growing open source project for multiple reasons. A, it has been built for the new way of building and deploying an application. It's cloud native. You mentioned Kubernetes becoming kind of the de facto way of running application. It's the de facto way to run automation and pipeline. But also Argo has been built from the ground up to the latest practices of how we deploy software. We deploy software now differently. We deploy it using a GitOps practice. We're deploying it using canary blue-green progressive deployment. And Argo has been built around these practices, around these technologies, and has been very much widely adopted by the community. In the past, the KubeCon you've mentioned, Argo was all over the place. And we were very glad to be working with the community to talk about what the next steps with Argo. >> Yeah, it's a really good point. I would like to just follow up on that because you see this being talked about. It always comes up, where is open source really outside of a pure contributors matter? And when you have corporations contributing, you seeing this has been the trend. You saw it with Lyft, with Envoy, companies doing more and more open source. This is part of a big collaboration. And again, this comes back down to this whole why it's relevant and why it's so special with Argo. Continue to talk about relationship because it's not just you guys, it's now community. >> Yeah, I can speak to that. The Argo project is something that we maintain in partnership with several other companies and really our relationship with it is that this is something that we're actively contributing to. This is something that we're helping build the roadmap on and planning the events around and all those kinds of things. And we're doing that because we really believe in this technology and we've built our platform on it. So when you deploy Codefresh, you're deploying technology that's built directly on Argo and is designed specifically to solve that problem that you spoke to at the top of the hour. We all want to deliver software faster. We all want to have fewer regressions. We want to have fewer breaking changes. We want software to be super reliable. We want to be comfortable with what we're doing. That's really why we picked Argo because that technology that we have it is to Raziel's point delivered in this new way. It's delivered using GitOps. And that's a whole revolution and change in the way that people build and deploy software. And bringing cohesion into that experience is so critical to building the confidence that lets you actually deploy often and frequently and more. >> Dan, if you don't mind just expanding on that one point about the problem you solve, because to me, this has been kind of that evolution. It's almost like, yeah, there's been problems, plural, and opportunities that you saw with those in growing markets like this with DevOps and DevSecOps and now cloud native. What is the catalyst behind all of this? What was the epiphany behind it? How did it get so much momentum? What was it really doing under the covers? >> Well, it's a very simple and easy to use set of tools. And that's one of the big things is that if you look at the ideas of GitOps and there's actually a foundation around this that were part of called open GitOps to GitOps working group under the CNCF. And those principles of, I want to, yes, do my software defined as code. I want to do my infrastructure defined as code and I need something monitoring by production run times and making sure that the declared desired state is always matching the actual state. Those principles have actually been around for a number of years. And with Kubernetes, we really unlocked an API that allowed us to start doing GitOps and this is why we bring in Argo and you see the rise of Argo CD and other workflows and what we've been doing is really because that technology has been unlocked now. So the ability to define how your software is supposed to run and now your entire software delivery stack should run, all defined and then monitored and then kept in check using the GitOps operator. That critical unlock is what's really driving the massive adoption. And like Raziel said, Argo is the fastest growing and most popular open source project for delivering software. And it's not even close. >> Yeah, this is really great point. And I want to get into that 'cause I want to know why, what you guys do on your platform versus the open source and get that relationship settled? Before we get there, though, I want to get your reaction to some of the commentary in the industry 'cause GitOps trend has been exploding into new directions. I mean, it used to be a term about 10 years ago called big data. And at the beginning where data was all big data. Now it was DevOps revolution around data as well. But now you're hearing people talk about big code. Like, I mean, the code bases are becoming so huge. So as a developer, you're leveraging large open source code. This idea of the software delivery with existing code and new code just adds to more code. There's more code being developed every day. >> There is more code delivered every day. And I think that organization realize today, almost in every industry that they have to pace up how fast and how frequent they update their software delivery. We're living in a world in which every aspect of our life has been disrupted by software and organization realize that they have to keep up and figure out how to deploy software more frequent and more lively. And I think, you mentioned that really Kubernetes, the cloud native became the de facto way of running application. I think most of organization has made that decision to move into cloud native. The second question is after, is okay, now we have all applications running, how fast and how more frequent we can deploy applications to the cloud native? And that's the stage in which we're super excited about Argo and our up platform because that's basically streamline the building application for these cloud native, deploying applications for the cloud native, and so on. >> Yeah, and I think that highlights the business value. You getting a lot of the conversations with businesses that say they want the modern application on the cloud scale. And at the end of the day, it comes down to speed and security. So how fast can I get the app out? How well does it work? Does it run performance? And does it have security? And I don't want a slow. >> Exactly. Exactly. It kind of oversimplifies it, but that's kind of the net net. So when you look at Argo open source, what's that's done and kind of where you guys are taking it. Can you talk about the differences between your enterprise version and the open source version and the interplay there, the relationship, the business model health customers can play on both sides or understand the difference? >> Sure. >> Go ahead. >> Go ahead, Raziel. Okay, so I think Argo, as you mentioned, is probably the most advanced technology today to both run pipelines. They're like events to trigger pipelines and Argo work for the one that pipelines, the Argo CD for GitOps and Rollout, for Canary blue-green strategies. And the adoption is really exploding. Just as an Advocate that we had in December, we have worked with the community and organized ArgoCon events in which we had initially kind of thought about 500 attendees. And so we have more than 4,000 registrants and majority of them are coming from enterprise. Now as we have talked to the community during this conference and figure out, okay, so what are the things that you're still missing? And that will help you take the benefit that you get from Argo to the next level. The few things that came up. One is Argo is a great technology. However, Argo now is fragmented into four projects. There is an advance. There is workflow. There is Argo CD. And there is Argo Rollout. And there is a need to bring them all together into a solid platform, solid one run time that can be easily installed, monitor all of these in a single UI, in a single control plane. That's one aspect. The second is the scalability. Really being able to manage it centrally across multiple clusters, not in one cluster. And what we bring in with the new one, we're so excited about this platform, is we're bringing that big. The first to get all of these four projects in one runtime, and one control plane, but also allow the community to run it across multiple cluster from one place getting into the solution, not just as a technology. >> If I may add to that, the value of bringing these projects together, it provides so many insights. So when you're trying to figure out, there's some breaking change that has been made, but you don't necessarily know where it is because you have a lot of microservices that are out there. You have a lot of teams working on it. By bringing all of these things together, we're able to look at all of the commits, all of the deployments, all of the Jira issues. All of these components combined together, so you really get a single view where you can see everything that's going on. And this is another element where when you're trying to deploy software at scale, you're trying to deliver it faster. People are getting a little bit overwhelmed because there are so many updates and so many different services and so many teams working that they're starting to miss that visibility. So this is what we want to bring into the ecosystem is we really want them that visibility to be super clear. And by bringing all of the Argo components, the Argo tools together, we're able to do that in a single dashboard. >> Yeah, so if I get this right, let me just double click on that because it sounds like, yeah, Argo's great. It's been organically growing, a lot of different components to it, but when you start getting into pushing code in an organization, you have, I call the old-school version control kind of vibe going on where it's like you don't know what's out there and how that affects the system as it's a distributed system, which cloud is. There are consequences when stuff breaks. So we all know that. Is that kind of where you guys are getting at? The challenge is actually the opportunity at the same time where it's all goodness, but then when you start looking at scale and the system impact, is that kind of where the open source and you guys pick up, is that right? >> This is one aspect. I think the second one is that again, when you look at each individual component of Argo, each provide a lot of value by itself. But when you sum it, the value of the sum is greater than the value of the individual. So when you're taking, really the events and workflow, Argo CD and Argo Rollout, and you bring them all together into single runtime. The value of its time is really automation all the way from code to cloud. It's not breaking into, there is like an automation for CI, there's an automation for CD, there's information for progressive delivery. It's actually automated all the way from the Git commit through the GitOps through the deployment strategy, and so on. And being able to monitor it and scale it in the enterprise scale. So, of course, it's helping enterprise and make Argo to some level more crucial for enterprise, if I may say, but second is really bringing all of these components together and get the outcome be greater than the individual parts. >> Yeah, that's a good point. Yeah, make it make a commercial grade, if you will, for enterprise who wants to have support and consistency and whatnot. What other problems are you solving? Dan, can you chime in on the whole, how you guys resolve some of these challenges for the enterprise? Because, again, some stability is key as well, but also the business benefit has got to be there for the development teams. >> Yeah. So there's several. One aspect is that the way that most people operate today is they essentially do a bunch of commands and engage with systems. And then hopefully at the end, they write those things to Git. And this is a little bit backwards if you think about it because there's a situation where you can end up with things in production that were never checked in, or maybe somebody is operating and they're making a change. If we look at most of the downtime that's occurred over the last two years, it's because people have flubbed a key when they were typing in a command or something like that. The way that this system works is that we provide an interface, both the CLI and the GUI, where those operations interactions actually end with a Git commit. So rather than doing an operation and then hopefully committing to Git, most of the operations are actually done first in Git, or if there is something that can't be done first in Git, it's maybe bootstrapped and then committed to Git as part of a single command. So this means you have end-to-end traceability. It also means your auditability is way better. And then the second, the other component that we're adding is that security and scale layer. So we are securing these things, we're building in single sign-on, and all those robust security things you would expect to have across all these instances. So many organizations, when they're building their software delivery tools, they have to deploy instances in many locations. And so this is how you end up with companies that have 5,000 instances that are all out of date and insecure. Well with Codefresh, if you need to deploy a component onto this end cluster or something like that, you may have thousands of them. All of those are monitored and taken care of in a centralized way, so I can do all of my updates at once. I can make sure they're all up to date. I'm not running with a bunch of known CVEs or something like that and it's clear. The components are also designed in an architectural way. So that only the information that is needed is ever passed out. So I can have a cluster that is remotely managed, that checks out code, that the control plane never has access to. So this hybrid model has been really popular with our customers. We have customers in healthcare, we have customers in defense and in financial services, all these regulated industries. The flow of information is really critical. So this hybrid model allows you to deploy something that has the ease of a SaaS solution, but has the security of an on-prem solution while being centrally managed and easy to take care of. >> Yeah, it's a platform. It's what it is. It's not a tool. It's not a tool anymore. It's a platform. >> Exactly. >> I think the foundational aspect of this is critical. And you mentioned automation before. If you're going to go end-to-end automation, you have some stuff in the system that whether it hasn't been checked in yet. I mean, we know what this leads to. Disaster or a lot of troubleshooting and disruption. That's what it seems to solve. Am I getting that right? Is that right? >> Yeah. >> Go ahead. >> Yeah, it helps automate the whole process. But as you say, it's really like identify what needs not to be going all the way to production and really kind of avoid vulnerabilities or any flaws in the software. So it automates everything, but in a way that the automation can identify issues and avoid them from coming into the production. >> Well, great stuff here. I've got to ask you guys now that you've got that settled. It's really, I see the value there, how you guys are letting it grow organically and with Argo and then building that platform for businesses and developers. It's really cool. And I see the foundational value there. It just only gets better. How you guys contributing back to open source and helping the wider GitOps and Argo communities? Because this is, again, the rising tide that's bringing all the boats into the harbor, so to speak. So this is a good trend and people will acknowledge that. So how's this going to work as you guys work back into the open source community? >> So we work closely with both myself and the other maintainers worked closely with the community on the roadmap and making sure that we're addressing issues. I think if you look in the last quarter, we probably have upwards of 40 or 50 different issues that we've solved in terms of fixing a bug or adding features or things like that. So making sure that these tools, which are really the undergirding components of our platform, they have to be really robust. They have to be really strong. And so we're contributing those things back. And then when it comes to the scalability side, these are things that we can build into the platform. So the value should be really clear. I can deploy this, I can manage it myself, I can build tools on top of it. And if I want to start doing it at scale, maybe I want support. That's when I really am going to go to Codefresh and start saying, let's get the enterprise little platform. >> Awesome. GitOps, a lot of people like some naysayers may say, Hey, it's the latest fad. Is it here to stay? We were talking about big code earlier. GitOps, obviously seeing open source. Just every year, just get better and better and growth. I mean, I remember when I was breaking into the business, you have to sell under the table. Now it's all free and open and getting better every year. Just the growth of code. Is GitOps a fad? How do you talk to people who say that? I mean, besides slapping around saying wake up. I mean, how do you guys address that when people say it's just the latest fad? >> So if I may comment here and Dan feel free to chime in, I think that the GitOps is a continuation of a trend that everything is a source code. As a developer, many years ago myself and still writing code, always both code and code was the source of tool that's where we write the code. But now code actually is also describing how our application is running in production. And we've already seen kind of where it's get next. We also hear about infrastructure as a code. So now actually we storing the code the way the infrastructure should be. And I think that the benefit of storing all this configuration in a source code, which has been built to track changes, to be enabled to roll back, that is just going to be here to stay. And I think that's the new way of doing things. >> All right, gentlemen, great. Closing statements. Please share an update on the company. What it's all about? What event you got coming? I know you got a big launch. Can you take us through? Take us home. >> Join on February 1st, we're going to be launching the Codefresh software delivery platform. Raziel and I will be hosting the event. We've got a number of customers, a number of members of the community who are going to be joining us to show off that platform. So you're going to be able to see it in action, see how the features work, and understand the value of it. And you'll see how it works with GitOps. You'll see how it helps you deliver software at scale. That's February 1st. You can get information at codefresh.io. >> Raziel, Dan, thanks for coming on. >> Thank you. >> Pretty good showcase. Thanks for sharing. Congratulations. Great venture. Loved the approach. Love the growth in cloud native and you guys sure on the cutting edge. Fresh code, people love fresh code, codefresh.io. Thanks for coming on. >> Thank you. Thank you. >> Okay, this is the AWS Startup Showcase Open Cloud Innovations. Cloud scale, software, data. That's the future of modern applications being developed, changing the game to the next level. This is the CUBE's coverage season two episode one of the ongoing AWS Startup series here in theCUBE.

(upbeat music) >> Hello, everyone. Welcome to theCUBE's coverage of the "AWS Startup Showcase", season two, episode one. I'm Lisa Martin, and I'm excited to be joined by Snyk, next in this episode. Liran Tal joins me, the director of developer advocacy. Liran, welcome to the program. >> Lisa, thank you for having me. This is so cool. >> Isn't it cool? (Liran chuckles) All the things that we can do remotely. So I had the opportunity to speak with your CEO, Peter McKay, just about a month or so ago at AWS re:Invent. So much growth and momentum going on with Snyk, it's incredible. But I wanted to talk to you about specifically, let's start with your role from a developer advocate perspective, 'cause Snyk is saying modern development is changing, so traditional AppSec gatekeeping doesn't apply anymore. Talk to me about your role as a developer advocate. >> It is definitely. The landscape is changing, both developer and security, it's just not what it was before, and what we're seeing is developers need to be empowered. They need some help, just working through all of those security issues, security incidents happening, using open source, building cloud native applications. So my role is basically about making them successful, helping them any way we can. And so getting that security awareness out, or making sure people are having those best practices, making sure we understand what are the frustrations developers have, what are the things that we can help them with, to be successful day to day. And how they can be a really good part of the organization in terms of fixing security issues, not just knowing about it, but actually being proactively on it. >> And one of the things also that I was reading is, Shift Left is not a new concept. We've been talking about it for a long time. But Snyk's saying it was missing some things and proactivity is one of those things that it was missing. What else was it missing and how does Snyk help to fix that gap? >> So I think Shift Left is a good idea. In general, the idea is we want to fix security issues as soon as we can. We want to find them. Which I think that is a small nuance that what's kind of missing in the industry. And usually what we've seen with traditional security before was, 'cause notice that, the security department has like a silo that organizations once they find some findings they push it over to the development team, the R&D leader or things like that, but until it actually trickles down, it takes a lot of time. And what we needed to do is basically put those developer security tools, which is what Snyk is building, this whole security platform. Is putting that at the hands and at the scale of, and speed of modern development into developers. So, for example, instead of just finding security issues in your open source dependencies, what we actually do at Snyk is not just tell you about them, but you actually open a poll request to your source codes version and management system. And through that we are able to tell you, now you can actually merge it, you can actually review it, you can actually have it as part of your day-to-day workflows. And we're doing that through so many other ways that are really helpful and actually remediating the problem. So another example would be the IDE. So we are actually embedding an extension within your IDEs. So, once you actually type in your own codes, that is when we actually find the vulnerabilities that could exist within your own code, if that's like insecure code, and we can tell you about it as you hit Command + S and you will save the file. Which is totally different than what SaaS tools starting up application security testing was before because, when things started, you usually had SaaS tools running in the background and like CI jobs at the weekend and in deltas of code bases, because they were so slow to run, but developers really need to be at speed. They're developing really fast. They need to deploy. One development is deployed to production several times a day. So we need to really enable developers to find and fix those security issues as fast as we can. >> Yeah, that speed that you mentioned is absolutely critical to their workflow and what they're expecting. And one of the unique things about Snyk, you mentioned, the integration into how this works within development workflow with IDE, CIDC, they get environment enabling them to work at speed and not have to be security experts. I imagine are two important elements to the culture of the developer environment, right? >> Correct, yes. It says, a large part is we don't expect developers to be security experts. We want to help them, we want to, again, give them the tools, give them the knowledge. So we do it in several ways. For example, that IDE extension has a really cool thing that's like kind of unique to it that I really like, and that is, when we find, for example, you're writing code and maybe there's a batch traversal vulnerability in the function that you just wrote, what we'll actually do when we tell you about it, it will actually tell you, hey, look, these are some other commits made by other open source projects where we found the same vulnerability and those commits actually fixed it. So actually giving you example cases of what potentially good code looks like. So if you think about it, like who knows what patch reversal is, but prototype pollution like many types of vulnerabilities, but at the same time, we don't expect developers to actually know, the deep aspects of security. So they're left off with, having some findings, but not really, they want to fix them, but they don't really have the expertise to do it. So what we're doing is we're bridging that gap and we're being helpful. So I think this is what really proactive security is for developers, that says helping them remediate it. And I can give like more examples, like the security database, it's like a wonderful place where we also like provide examples and references of like, where does their vulnerability come from if there's like, what's fogging in open-source package? And we highlight that with a lot of references that provide you with things, the pull requests that fixed date, or the issue with where this was discussed. You have like an entire context of what is the... What made this vulnerability happen. So you have like a little bit more context than just specifically, emerging some stuff and updating, and there's a ton more. I'm happy to like dive more into this. >> Well, I can hear your enthusiasm for it, a developer advocate it seems like you are. But talking about the burdens of the gaps that you guys are filling it also seems like the developers and the security folks that this is also a bridge for those teams to work better together. >> Correct. I think that is not siloed anymore. I think the idea of having security champions or having threat modeling activities are really, really good, or like insightful both like developers and security, but more than just being insightful, useful practices that organizations should actually do actually bringing a discussion together to actually creating a more cohesive environment for both of those kind of like expertise, development and security to work together towards some of these aspects of like just mitigating security issues. And one of the things that actually Snyk is doing in that, in bringing their security into the developer mindset is also providing them with the ability to prioritize and understand what policies to put in place. So a lot of the times security organizations actually, the security org wants to do is put just, guardrails to make sure that developers have a good leeway to work around, but they're not like doing things that like, they definitely shouldn't do that, like prior to bringing a big risk into today organizations. And that's what I think we're doing also like great, which is the fact that we're providing the security folks to like put the policies in place and then developers who actually like, work really well within those understand how to prioritize vulnerabilities is an important part. And we kind of like quantify that, we put like an urgency score that says, hey, you should fix this vulnerability first. Why? Because it has, first of all, well, you can upgrade really quickly. It has a fix right there. Secondly, there's like an exploit in the wild. It means potentially an attacker can weaponize this vulnerability and like attack your organizations, in an automated fashion. So you definitely want to put that put like a lead on that, on that broken window, if so to say. So we ended up other kind of metrics that we can quantify and put this as like an urgency score, which we called a priority score that helps again, developers really know what to fix first, because like they could get a scan of like hundreds of vulnerabilities, but like, what do I start first with? So I find that like very useful for both the security and the developers working together. >> Right, and especially now, as we've seen such changes in the last couple of years to the threat landscape, the vulnerabilities, the security issues that are impacting every industry. The ability to empower developers to not only work at the speed with which they are accustomed and need to work, but also to be able to find those vulnerabilities faster prioritize which ones need to be fixed. I mean, I think of Log4Shell, for example, and when the challenge is going on with the supply chain, that this is really a critical capability from a developer empowerment perspective, but also from a overall business health and growth perspective. >> Definitely. I think, first of all, like if you want to step just a step back in terms of like, what has changed. Like what is the landscape? So I think we're seeing several things happening. First of all, there's this big, tremendous... I would call it a trend, but now it's like the default. Like of the growth of open source software. So first of all as developers are using more and more open source and that's like a growing trend of have like drafts of this. And it's like always increasing across, by the way, every ecosystem go, rust, .net, Java, JavaScript, whatever you're building, that's probably like on a growing trend, more open source. And that is, we will talk about it in a second what are the risks there. But that is one trend that we're saying. The other one is cloud native applications, which is also worth to like, I think dive deep into it in terms of the way that we're building applications today has completely shifted. And I think what AWS is doing in that sense is also creating a tremendous shift in the mindset of things. For example, out of the cloud infrastructure has basically democratized infrastructure. I do not need to, own my servers and own my monitoring and configure everything out. I can actually write codes that when I deploy it, when something parses this and runs this, it actually creates servers and monitoring, logging, different kinds of things for me. So it democratize the whole sense of building applications from what it was decades ago. And this whole thing is important and really, really fast. It makes things scalable. It also introduces some rates. For example, some of these configuration. So there's a lot that has been changed. And in that landscape of like what modern developer is and I think in that sense, we kind of can need a lead to a little bit more, be helpful to developers and help them like avoid all those cases. And I'm like happy to dive into like the open source and the cloud native. That was like follow-ups on this one. >> I want to get into a little bit more about your relationship with AWS. When I spoke with Peter McKay for re:Invent, he talked about the partnership being a couple of years old, but there's some kind of really interesting things that AWS is doing in terms of leveraging, Snyk. Talk to me about that. >> Indeed. So Snyky integrates with almost, I think probably a lot of services, but probably almost all of those that are unique and related to developers building on top of the AWS platform. And for example, that would be, if you actually are building your code, it connects like the source code editor. If you are pushing that code over, it integrates with code commits. As you build and CIS are running, maybe code build is something you're using that's in code pipeline. That is something that you have like native integrations. At the end of the day, like you have your container registry or Lambda. If you're using like functions as a service for your obligations, what we're doing is integrating with all of that. So at the end of the day, you really have all of that... It depends where you're integrating, but on all of those points of integration, you have like Snyk there to help you out and like make sure that if we find on any of those, any potential issues, anything from like licenses to vulnerabilities in your containers or just your code or your open source code in those, they actually find it at that point and mitigate the issue. So this kind of like if you're using Snyk, when you're a development machine, it kind of like accompanies you through this journey all over what a CIC kind of like landscape looks like as an architectural landscape for development, kind of like all the way there. And I think what you kind of might be I think more interested, I think to like put your on and an emphasis would be this recent integration with the Amazon Inspector. Which is as it's like very pivotal parts on the AWS platform to provide a lot of, integrate a lot of services and provide you with those insights on security. And I think the idea that now that is able to leverage vulnerability data from the Snyk's security intelligence database that says that's tremendous. And we can talk about that. We'd look for shell and recent issues. >> Yeah. Let's dig into that. We've have a few minutes left, but that was obviously a huge issue in November of 2021, when obviously we're in a very dynamic global situation period, but it's now not a matter of if an organization is going to be hit by vulnerabilities and security threats. It's a matter of when. Talk to me about really how impactful Snyk was in the Log4Shell vulnerability and how you help customers evade probably some serious threats, and that could have really impacted revenue growth, customer satisfaction, brand reputation. >> Definitely. The Log4Shell is, well, I mean was a vulnerability that was disclosed, but it's probably still a major part and going to be probably for the foreseeable future. An issue for organizations as they would need to deal with us. And we'll dive in a second and figure out like why, but in like a summary here, Log4Shell was the vulnerability that actually was found in Java library called Log4J. A logging library that is so popular today and used. And the thing is having the ability to react fast to those new vulnerabilities being disclosed is really a vital part of the organizations, because when it is asking factful, as we've seen Log4Shell being that is when, it determines where the security tool you're using is actually helping you, or is like just an added thing on like a checkbox to do. And that is what I think made Snyk's so unique in the sense. We have a team of those folks that are really boats, manually curating the ecosystem of CVEs and like finding by ourselves, but also there's like an entire, kind of like an intelligence platform beyond us. So we get a lot of notifications on chatter that happens. And so when someone opens an issue on an open source repository says, Hey, I found an issue here. Maybe that's an XSS or code injection or something like that. We find it really fast. And we at that point, before it goes to CVE requirement and stuff like that through like a miter and NVD, we find it really fast and can add it to the database. So this has been something that we've done with Log4Shell, where we found that as it was disclosed, not on the open source, but just on the open source system, but it was generally disclosed to everyone at that point. But not only that, because look for J as the library had several iterations of fixes they needed. So they fixed one version. Then that was the recommendation to upgrade to then that was actually found as vulnerable. So they needed to fix the another time and then another time and so on. So being able to react fast, which is, what I think helped a ton of customers and users of Snyk is that aspect. And what I really liked in the way that this has been received very well is we were very fast on creating those command line tools that allow developers to actually find cases of the Log4J library, embedded into (indistinct) but not true a package manifest. So sometimes you have those like legacy applications, deployed somewhere, probably not even legacy, just like the Log4J libraries, like bundled into a net or Java source code base. So you may not even know that you're using it in a sense. And so what we've done is we've like exposed with Snyk CLI tool and a command line argument that allows you to search for all of those cases. Like we can find them and help you, try and mitigate those issues. So that has been amazing. >> So you've talked in great length, Liran about, and detail about how Snyk is really enabling and empowering developers. One last question for you is when I spoke with Peter last month at re:Invent, he talked about the goal of reaching 28 million developers. Your passion as a director of developer advocacy is palpable. I can feel it through the screen here. Talk to me about where you guys are on that journey of reaching those 28 million developers and what personally excites you about what you're doing here. >> Oh, yeah. So many things. (laughs) Don't know where to start. We are constantly talking to developers on community days and things like that. So it's a couple of examples. We have like this dev site community, which is a growing and kicking community of developers and security people coming together and trying to work and understand, and like, just learn from each other. We have those events coming up. We actually have this, "The Big Fix". It's a big security event that we're launching on February 25th. And the idea is, want to help the ecosystem secure security obligations, open source or even if it's closed source. We like help you fix that though that yeah, it's like helping them. We've launched this Snyk ambassadors program, which is developers and security people, CSOs are even in there. And the idea is how can we help them also be helpful to the community? Because they are like known, they are passionate as we are, on application security and like helping developers code securely, build securely. So we launching all of those programs. We have like social impact related programs and the way that we like work with organizations, like maybe non-profit maybe they just need help, like getting, the security part of things kind of like figured out, students and things like that. Like, there's like a ton of those initiatives all over the boards, helping basically the world be a little bit more secure. >> Well, we could absolutely use Snyk's help in making the world more secure. Liran it's been great talking to you. Like I said, your passion for what you do and what Snyk is able to facilitate and enable is palpable. And it was a great conversation. I appreciate that. And we look forward to hearing what transpires during 2022 for Snyk so you got to come back. >> I will. Thank you. Thank you, Lisa. This has been fun. >> All right. Excellent. Liran Tal, I'm Lisa Martin. You're watching theCUBE's second season, season two of the "AWS Startup Showcase". This has been episode one. Stay tuned for more great episodes, full of fantastic content. We'll see you soon. (upbeat music)

(upbeat music) >> Welcome back to re:Invent 2021. You're watching theCUBE. My name is Dave Vellante. We're really excited to have Anthony Lye here. He's the Executive Vice President and General Manager of Public Cloud at NetApp. And Jonsi Stefansson as the CTO and VP of cloud at NetApp. Guys, good to see you. >> Same to you. >> Likewise. >> It's great to be back. >> You know, Anthony. Well so, we saw each other virtually at the AWS Storage Day, the big announcement, we're going to talk about that. But I go back and I said this to you several years ago, we were sitting, you know, some after party and you said "We are going to transform NetApp. We are going all in on cloud." We've seen NetApp transform many, many times. This is probably the biggest in history. >> No, I think you're absolutely right. I think, you know, I can't believe it, but you know, it will be five years for me in February. And in those five years, I think we really have done things that nobody expected. And I think we've proven to our existing customers, to our competitors, and now with Amazon, to a whole new set of customers that our intellectual property that we build and the acquisitions that we've done have made a lot of sense. I think we've demonstrated this wonderful concept of symmetry. Customers now understand and believe that a dollar invested in an App, wherever it is on premise or in the cloud is a dollar that moves wherever they want it to move and progresses as their own businesses progress. >> So Jonsi, for the latest announcement that you guys made to integrate ONTAP into the AWS cloud, you had to do some deeper integration, right? It wasn't just wrap your stack and Kubernetes and shove it into the cloud. But can you just talk about what you had to do? What the collaboration was like? >> The collaboration with AWS has been fantastic. It literally took two and a half years, you know, from the point where we decided to agree on the design principles, how we were actually going to deliver this as a service, the integration into every single aspect of AWS, you know, whether it's the console, the FSx, API, the integrations, to all the additional services that AWS has, like RDS, like Aurora, like the SageMaker, like EKS and ECS. And I mean, we are just getting started with the integration points and the collaboration and the teamwork. I would call it teamwork more than a collaboration. The teamwork with all these teams and maybe especially at name who was the leader of the storage sort of a unit in AWS has been fantastic. >> Dave: Yeah. Well so, this is the 10th re:Invent. This is the 9th year we've been here. We've seen a dramatically different cloud than 10 years ago, 15 years ago, and a different storage business. I'm not even sure. I mean, I don't know. I didn't even think about it as the old storage business anymore. Essentially, you're building a cloud on top of clouds. A super cloud if you will. >> Anthony: Yeah, I mean. I think, look, the strategy was, as I said, very, very simple to us, which was, you know, fundamentally companies, you know, run their applications on the basic primitives of compute storage and networking. And the gold standard for file was always ONTAP. And I think what we did, which I think was unique was we didn't just, as you said, throw it onto a cloud, stick it in a virtual machine and tell you, the customer "There. It's ONTAP just as you remember it." We reimagined it. And we architected it to be a cloud service. So it's elastic, it goes up and down. You can change the performance at runtime. And what we really did with Amazon was we wanted to make it a fully managed service. We didn't want people to think about versioning and patching. We wanted to remove all of that and we wanted people to take as much or as little as they needed. And we, and Amazon, we chose that we should own the responsibility for the availability of the service. And we should maintain the service ourselves so that customers of ONTAP can benefit from the solution. But in many ways, customers who've never been ONTAP customers can now take advantage of an enterprise grade file system and all the great things that it does without having to understand how it works. >> And explain why that's important for customers because people, they go, "Wow, you got S3." but it's very simple. Get, put, right? You don't have the full stack of a mature ONTAP. Please explain what that means to customers a little bit. >> You know, file systems are very important things. You know, we basically use them in our work environments every single day, you know. Within your sort of, you know, your Mac book, you have a home directory and sub-directories and files, very elegantly layout applications and layout infrastructures in ways that object repositories cannot. You know, aside from block and file. Sorry, from file and object, you of course, have block storage. And so, file plays a very important role. IDC has file growing at almost twice the pace of object now on the public cloud systems and, you know, file has about 13% of the overall storage market and it's growing. And I don't see any reason why file won't be as big on the Amazon cloud as the S3 has been. >> Dave: So you guys, go ahead, please. >> Yeah. I mean, you also have to take into account that the S3 object storage offerings of AWS is an integrated PaaS in our solution. So that's how we are actually doing automatic tiering. So you actually reap the best of both worlds, where you get the cost management of putting it in object storage, but you get the performance and the data management capabilities that is pretty unprecedented. You know, we are the first store that's offering that can actually do cross-region replication seamlessly by retaining deduplication and compression. But we also play a lot with, you know, block and object storage. So when Anthony was talking about how we've actually delivered this as a service, and this is sort of from our design principles, we are basically delivering this as a software, as a service, because more than an infrastructure as a service, because the stock that we are actually deploying, or the secret sauce of ONTAP, it's a very vast software stack that we are delivering, on top of AWS infrastructure. So I would always call it or categorize it a little bit more than software as a service, rather than infrastructure as a service. >> But it's even more than that, if I'm right, because it's cloud pricing, right? >> Jonsi: Yes. >> So it's not, you're not preying. I mean, when I buy Salesforce, I got to sign up for three-year deal. That's not a consumption-based model. >> Yeah. >> Oh, I think Amazon, you know what Amazon did uniquely and brilliantly was, it retailed technology and it's what makes Amazon so good, is that they choose to sort of simplify things. And when they find benefits as a retailer, they pass them on to the customer and, you know, there's this sort of pay-as-you-go business model, it's really good for the customer. It makes us work harder because, you know, you have to retain your customer sort of every 10 minutes. And that's something that, you know, as you said, with enterprise software and even some of the early SaaS vendors, that's not how it works. And so Amazon has forced us all to be very, very attentive to our customers. >> Dave: And I'd love to talk about what that means for the on-prem business, but if we have time. But you guys won Design Partner of the Year, what's that all about? First of all, congratulations. >> Anthony: Thank you. There's a lot of ISV design partners. You guys came out number one so congratulations on that. What's that all about? Explain what that entailed and how you got that. >> Yeah, I'll say a few words. Maybe Jonsi can add. I mean, the first thing of course is, you know, I S V stands for Independent Software Vendor. So, you know, it's always great because most people would say, "Well, NetApp is on-premise storage hardware." >> Dave: Of course, yeah. >> Which really, we've not really ever been an increasingly with demonstrating that we are a software company and we operate at cloud speed. You know, I can't really take the credit. I would give it to Jonsi and the engineering team. Maybe Jonsi, you can explain, you know, what moral about the award and why I think we were selected. >> So, I mean, I think it says a lot that this is the first time AWS has ever allowed a third party company to be this integrated into their console, into a support ability systems. You know, we make fun of this, me and Anthony all the time, because when we started this, down this path, everybody at NetApp said, "Guys, you're wasting your time." This is why AWS has the marketplace, but we didn't want to go. We already had the marketplace and we wanted to be able to connect to all these associated services and do it in the manner that, you know, this was a true collaboration of engineering teams for a long time to actually deliver the service on both sides so the credit, of course, will always go to the engineers on both sides, even though I designed it, I didn't code it. So, I think that, that alone, being the first to do it in AWS ever. I think we deserve that award. >> So just for our audience, to be clear, we're talking about FSx, ONTAP in the cloud, in the AWS cloud and kind of dance around that. But so that was announced, I guess, in September? >> Anthony: Yes. >> Right? >> Anthony: September, 2nd. >> What's the uptake been like? What's the reaction? >> Unbelievable. >> I'll bet. (laughing) >> No, no, I mean. >> No, I believe it. >> Better than we ever dreamed of. >> Yeah. >> The number of customers, I'm sure I'm not allowed to say the number of customers, but we asked and the fact that, you know, 60% of those customers have never been NetApp customers before, but they see the value in the data management capabilities that we are bringing to the market. >> Dave: So it exceeded expectations and your expectations were probably pretty enthusiastic. >> They were high. >> Yeah. >> I mean, Amazon is on the record. I was with Ed earlier on today, recording a piece and Ed, you know, was very clear that it's one of the fastest growing services now on AWS. You know, it turns out that, you know, the customer base, I think recognizes the, not just the need for a file system, but the uniqueness and capabilities that ONTAP provides, you know, to those customers in how they manage their business and transformations. And so, you know, to be sort of behind the console, to be sort of behind the Amazon CLI and the Amazon API, you see the world very, very differently, you know. I think the Amazon marketplace is a fantastic capability, but I'll tell you, you know, being a core part of the AWS service itself that they sell, that they support, that they bill for. It's a nice place to be. >> So, SaaS company. You're talking to the language of application development, Kubernetes, right? What do you think this means for the future of NetApp specifically, but also generally the on-prem storage business and the storage business in general? >> Well, we just announced our second quarter earnings today and what's happening is our cloud business is growing like crazy. We generated $388 million of ARR and the growth rates are, you know, astronomically high. That is increasingly helping our on-premise business to grow. You know, the nice thing about being in primarily, in the storage and data business is people aren't deleting many things. And the rate at which they're generating information is just accelerating. So, actually the confidence that we give the customer by demonstrating a sort of a cloud first, a sort of principles of all the cloud is actually giving customers to buy more on premise. So, we really don't mind. We are, our job much like Amazon's, is to have this customer obsession and you can't really go wrong, if you just keep asking them what they want. >> Yeah, if you can do so profitably, you're going to be reinvest in your business. Guys, we've got to go. >> Yeah. >> Love to have you back. >> Thank you. >> And you been quite a transformation. You said you're going to do it. You're doing it. So, well done to you. Five years in the making. Okay. This is Dave Vellante for theCUBE, the leader in high-tech coverage. Keep it right there. We'll be right back from AWS re:Invent 21. (upbeat music)

(upbeat music) >> Welcome back to re:Invent 2021. You're watching theCUBE. My name is Dave Vellante. We're really excited to have Anthony Lye here. He's the Executive Vice President and General Manager of Public Cloud at NetApp. And Jonsi Stefansson as the CTO and VP of cloud at NetApp. Guys, good to see you. >> Same to you. >> Likewise. >> It's great to be back. >> You know, Anthony. Well so, we saw each other virtually at the AWS Storage Day, the big announcement, we're going to talk about that. But I go back and I said this to you several years ago, we were sitting, you know, some after party and you said "We are going to transform NetApp. We are going all in on cloud." We've seen NetApp transform many, many times. This is probably the biggest in history. >> No, I think you're absolutely right. I think, you know, I can't believe it, but you know, it will be five years for me in February. And in those five years, I think we really have done things that nobody expected. And I think we've proven to our existing customers, to our competitors, and now with Amazon, to a whole new set of customers that our intellectual property that we build and the acquisitions that we've done have made a lot of sense. I think we've demonstrated this wonderful concept of symmetry. Customers now understand and believe that a dollar invested in an App, wherever it is on premise or in the cloud is a dollar that moves wherever they want it to move and progresses as their own businesses progress. >> So Jonsi, for the latest announcement that you guys made to integrate ONTAP into the AWS cloud, you had to do some deeper integration, right? It wasn't just wrap your stack and Kubernetes and shove it into the cloud. But can you just talk about what you had to do? What the collaboration was like? >> The collaboration with AWS has been fantastic. It literally took two and a half years, you know, from the point where we decided to agree on the design principles, how we were actually going to deliver this as a service, the integration into every single aspect of AWS, you know, whether it's the console, the FSx, API, the integrations, to all the additional services that AWS has, like RDS, like Aurora, like the SageMaker, like EKS and ECS. And I mean, we are just getting started with the integration points and the collaboration and the teamwork. I would call it teamwork more than a collaboration. The teamwork with all these teams and maybe especially at name who was the leader of the storage sort of a unit in AWS has been fantastic. >> Dave: Yeah. Well so, this is the 10th re:Invent. This is the 9th year we've been here. We've seen a dramatically different cloud than 10 years ago, 15 years ago, and a different storage business. I'm not even sure. I mean, I don't know. I didn't even think about it as the old storage business anymore. Essentially, you're building a cloud on top of clouds. A super cloud if you will. >> Anthony: Yeah, I mean. I think, look, the strategy was, as I said, very, very simple to us, which was, you know, fundamentally companies, you know, run their applications on the basic primitives of compute storage and networking. And the gold standard for file was always ONTAP. And I think what we did, which I think was unique was we didn't just, as you said, throw it onto a cloud, stick it in a virtual machine and tell you, the customer "There. It's ONTAP just as you remember it." We reimagined it. And we architected it to be a cloud service. So it's elastic, it goes up and down. You can change the performance at runtime. And what we really did with Amazon was we wanted to make it a fully managed service. We didn't want people to think about versioning and patching. We wanted to remove all of that and we wanted people to take as much or as little as they needed. And we, and Amazon, we chose that we should own the responsibility for the availability of the service. And we should maintain the service ourselves so that customers of ONTAP can benefit from the solution. But in many ways, customers who've never been ONTAP customers can now take advantage of an enterprise grade file system and all the great things that it does without having to understand how it works. >> And explain why that's important for customers because people, they go, "Wow, you got S3." but it's very simple. Get, put, right? You don't have the full stack of a mature ONTAP. Please explain what that means to customers a little bit. >> You know, file systems are very important things. You know, we basically use them in our work environments every single day, you know. Within your sort of, you know, your Mac book, you have a home directory and sub-directories and files, very elegantly layout applications and layout infrastructures in ways that object repositories cannot. You know, aside from block and file. Sorry, from file and object, you of course, have block storage. And so, file plays a very important role. IDC has file growing at almost twice the pace of object now on the public cloud systems and, you know, file has about 13% of the overall storage market and it's growing. And I don't see any reason why file won't be as big on the Amazon cloud as the S3 has been. >> Dave: So you guys, go ahead, please. >> Yeah. I mean, you also have to take into account that the S3 object storage offerings of AWS is an integrated PaaS in our solution. So that's how we are actually doing automatic tiering. So you actually reap the best of both worlds, where you get the cost management of putting it in object storage, but you get the performance and the data management capabilities that is pretty unprecedented. You know, we are the first store that's offering that can actually do cross-region replication seamlessly by retaining deduplication and compression. But we also play a lot with, you know, block and object storage. So when Anthony was talking about how we've actually delivered this as a service, and this is sort of from our design principles, we are basically delivering this as a software, as a service, because more than an infrastructure as a service, because the stock that we are actually deploying, or the secret sauce of ONTAP, it's a very vast software stack that we are delivering, on top of AWS infrastructure. So I would always call it or categorize it a little bit more than software as a service, rather than infrastructure as a service. >> But it's even more than that, if I'm right, because it's cloud pricing, right? >> Jonsi: Yes. >> So it's not, you're not preying. I mean, when I buy Salesforce, I got to sign up for three-year deal. That's not a consumption-based model. >> Yeah. >> Oh, I think Amazon, you know what Amazon did uniquely and brilliantly was, it retailed technology and it's what makes Amazon so good, is that they choose to sort of simplify things. And when they find benefits as a retailer, they pass them on to the customer and, you know, there's this sort of pay-as-you-go business model, it's really good for the customer. It makes us work harder because, you know, you have to retain your customer sort of every 10 minutes. And that's something that, you know, as you said, with enterprise software and even some of the early SaaS vendors, that's not how it works. And so Amazon has forced us all to be very, very attentive to our customers. >> Dave: And I'd love to talk about what that means for the on-prem business, but if we have time. But you guys won Design Partner of the Year, what's that all about? First of all, congratulations. >> Anthony: Thank you. There's a lot of ISV design partners. You guys came out number one so congratulations on that. What's that all about? Explain what that entailed and how you got that. >> Yeah, I'll say a few words. Maybe Jonsi can add. I mean, the first thing of course is, you know, I S V stands for Independent Software Vendor. So, you know, it's always great because most people would say, "Well, NetApp is on-premise storage hardware." >> Dave: Of course, yeah. >> Which really, we've not really ever been an increasingly with demonstrating that we are a software company and we operate at cloud speed. You know, I can't really take the credit. I would give it to Jonsi and the engineering team. Maybe Jonsi, you can explain, you know, what moral about the award and why I think we were selected. >> So, I mean, I think it says a lot that this is the first time AWS has ever allowed a third party company to be this integrated into their console, into a support ability systems. You know, we make fun of this, me and Anthony all the time, because when we started this, down this path, everybody at NetApp said, "Guys, you're wasting your time." This is why AWS has the marketplace, but we didn't want to go. We already had the marketplace and we wanted to be able to connect to all these associated services and do within the manner that, you know, this was a true collaboration of engineering teams for a long time to actually deliver the service on both sides so the credit, of course, will always go to the engineers on both sides, even though I designed it, I didn't coat it. So, I think that, that alone, being the first to do it in AWS ever. I think we deserve that award. >> So just for our audience, to be clear, we're talking about FSx, ONTAP in the cloud, in the AWS cloud and kind of dance around that. But so that was announced, I guess, in September? >> Anthony: Yes. >> Right? >> Anthony: September, 2nd. >> What's the uptake been like? What's the reaction? >> Unbelievable. >> I'll bet. (laughing) >> No, no, I mean. >> No, I believe it. >> Better than we ever dreamed of. >> Yeah. >> The number of customers, I'm sure I'm not allowed to say the number of customers, but we asked and the fact that, you know, 60% of those customers have never been NetApp customers before, but they see the value in the data management capabilities that we are bringing to the market. >> Dave: So it exceeded expectations and your expectations were probably pretty enthusiastic. >> They were high. >> Yeah. >> I mean, Amazon is on the record. I was with Ed earlier on today, recording a piece and Ed, you know, was very clear that it's one of the fastest growing services now on AWS. You know, it turns out that, you know, the customer base, I think recognizes the, not just the need for a file system, but the uniqueness and capabilities that ONTAP provides, you know, to those customers in how they manage their business and transformations. And so, you know, to be sort of behind the console, to be sort of behind the Amazon CLI and the Amazon API, you see the world very, very differently, you know. I think the Amazon marketplace is a fantastic capability, but I'll tell you, you know, being a core part of the AWS service itself that they sell, that they support, that they bill for. It's a nice place to be. >> So, SaaS company. You're talking to the language of application development, Kubernetes, right? What do you think this means for the future of NetApp specifically, but also generally the on-prem storage business and the storage business in general? >> Well, we just announced our second quarter earnings today and what's happening is our cloud business is growing like crazy. We generated $388 million of ARR and the growth rates are, you know, astronomically high. That is increasingly helping our on-premise business to grow. You know, the nice thing about being in primarily, in the storage and data business is people aren't deleting many things. And the rate at which they're generating information is just accelerating. So, actually the confidence that we give the customer by demonstrating a sort of a cloud first, a sort of principles of all the cloud is actually giving customers to buy more on premise. So, we really don't mind. We are, our job much like Amazon's, is to have this customer obsession and you can't really go wrong, if you just keep asking them what they want. >> Yeah, if you can do so profitably, you're going to be reinvest in your business. Guys, we've got to go. >> Yeah. >> Love to have you back. >> Thank you. >> And you been quite a transformation. You said you're going to do it. You're doing it. So, well done to you. Five years in the making. Okay. This is Dave Vellante for theCUBE, the leader in high-tech coverage. Keep it right there. We'll be right back from AWS re:Invent 21. (upbeat music)

(upbeat music) >> Welcome back to AWS storage day. This is the Cubes continuous coverage. My name is Dave Vellante, and we're going to talk about file storage. 80% of the world's data is in unstructured storage. And most of that is in file format. Devs want infrastructure as code. They want to be able to provision and manage storage through an API, and they want that cloud agility. They want to be able to scale up, scale down, pay by the drink. And the big news of storage day was really the partnership, deep partnership between AWS and NetApp. And with me to talk about that as Ed Naim, who's the general manager of Amazon FSX and Anthony Lye, executive vice president and GM of public cloud at NetApp. Two Cube alums. Great to see you guys again. Thanks for coming on. >> Thanks for having us. >> So Ed, let me start with you. You launched FSX 2018 at re-invent. How has it being used today? >> Well, we've talked about MSX on the Cube before Dave, but let me start by recapping that FSX makes it easy to, to launch and run fully managed feature rich high performance file storage in the cloud. And we built MSX from the ground up really to have the reliability, the scalability you were talking about. The simplicity to support, a really wide range of workloads and applications. And with FSX customers choose the file system that powers their file storage with full access to the file systems feature sets, the performance profiles and the data management capabilities. And so since reinvent 2018, when we launched this service, we've offered two file system choices for customers. So the first was a Windows file server, and that's really storage built on top of Windows server designed as a really simple solution for Windows applications that require shared storage. And then Lustre, which is an open source file system that's the world's most popular high-performance file system. And the Amazon FSX model has really resonated strongly with customers for a few reasons. So first, for customers who currently managed network attached storage or NAS on premises, it's such an easy path to move their applications and their application data to the cloud. FSX works and feels like the NAZA appliances that they're used to, but added to all of that are the benefits of a fully managed cloud service. And second, for builders developing modern new apps, it helps them deliver fast, consistent experiences for Windows and Linux in a simple and an agile way. And then third, for research scientists, its storage performance and its capabilities for dealing with data at scale really make it a no-brainer storage solution. And so as a result, the service is being used for a pretty wide spectrum of applications and workloads across industries. So I'll give you a couple of examples. So there's this class of what we call common enterprise IT use cases. So think of things like end user file shares the corporate IT applications, content management systems, highly available database deployments. And then there's a variety of common line of business and vertical workloads that are running on FSX as well. So financial services, there's a lot of modeling and analytics, workloads, life sciences, a lot of genomics analysis, media and entertainment rendering and transcoding and visual effects, automotive. We have a lot of electronic control units, simulations, and object detection, semiconductor, a lot of EDA, electronic design automation. And then oil and gas, seismic data processing, pretty common workload in FSX. And then there's a class of, of really ultra high performance workloads that are running on FSX as well. Think of things like big data analytics. So SAS grid is a, is a common application. A lot of machine learning model training, and then a lot of what people would consider traditional or classic high performance computing or HPC. >> Great. Thank you for that. Just quick follow-up if I may, and I want to bring Anthony into the conversation. So why NetApp? This is not a Barney deal, this was not elbow grease going into a Barney deal. You know, I love you. You love me. We do a press release. But, but why NetApp? Why ONTAP? Why now? (momentary silence) Ed, that was to you. >> Was that a question for Anthony? >> No, for you Ed. And then I want to bring Anthony in. >> Oh, Sure. Sorry. Okay. Sure. Yeah, I mean it, uh, Dave, it really stemmed from both companies realizing a combined offering would be highly valuable to and impactful for customers. In reality, we started collaborating in Amazon and NetApp on the service probably about two years ago. And we really had a joint vision that we wanted to provide AWS customers with the full power of ONTAP. The complete ONTAP with every capability and with ONTAP's full performance, but fully managed an offer as a full-blown AWS native service. So what that would mean is that customers get all of ONTAP's benefits along with the simplicity and the agility, the scalability, the security, and the reliability of an AWS service. >> Great. Thank you. So Anthony, I have watched NetApp reinvent itself started in workstations, saw you go into the enterprise, I saw you lean into virtualization, you told me at least two years, it might've been three years ago, Dave, we are going all in on the cloud. We're going to lead this next, next chapter. And so, I want you to bring in your perspective. You're re-inventing NetApp yet again, you know, what are your thoughts? >> Well, you know, NetApp and AWS have had a very long relationship. I think it probably dates now about nine years. And what we really wanted to do in NetApp was give the most important constituent of all an experience that helped them progress their business. So ONTAP, you know, the industry's leading shared storage platform, we wanted to make sure that in AWS, it was as good as it was on premise. We love the idea of giving customers this wonderful concept of symmetry. You know, ONTAP runs the biggest applications in the largest enterprises on the planet. And we wanted to give not just those customers an opportunity to embrace the Amazon cloud, but we wanted to also extend the capabilities of ONTAP through FSX to a new customer audience. Maybe those smaller companies that didn't really purchase on premise infrastructure, people that were born in the cloud. And of course, this gives us a great opportunity to present a fully managed ONTAP within the FSX platform, to a lot of non NetApp customers, to our competitors customers, Dave, that frankly, haven't done the same as we've done. And I think we are the benefactors of it, and we're in turn passing that innovation, that, that transformation onto the, to the customers and the partners. >> You know, one is the, the key aspect here is that it's a managed service. I don't think that could be, you know, overstated. And the other is that the cloud nativeness of this Anthony, you mentioned here, our marketplace is great, but this is some serious engineering going on here. So Ed maybe, maybe start with the perspective of a managed service. I mean, what does that mean? The whole ball of wax? >> Yeah. I mean, what it means to a customer is they go into the AWS console or they go to the AWS SDK or the, the AWS CLI and they are easily able to provision a resource provision, a file system, and it automatically will get built for them. And if there's nothing that they need to do at that point, they get an endpoint that they have access to the file system from and that's it. We handle patching, we handle all of the provisioning, we handle any hardware replacements that might need to happen along the way. Everything is fully managed. So the customer really can focus not on managing their file system, but on doing all of the other things that they, that they want to do and that they need to do. >> So. So Anthony, in a way you're disrupting yourself, which is kind of what you told me a couple of years ago. You're not afraid to do that because if we don't do it, somebody else is going to do it because you're, you're used to the old days, you're selling a box and you say, we'll see you next time, you know, three or four years. So from, from your customer's standpoint, what's their reaction to this notion of a managed service and what does it mean to NetApp? >> Well, so I think the most important thing it does is it gives them investment protection. The wonderful thing about what we've built with Amazon in the FSX profile is it's a complete ONTAP. And so one ONTAP cluster on premise can immediately see and connect to an ONTAP environment under FSX. We can then establish various different connectivities. We can use snap mirror technologies for disaster recovery. We can use efficient data transfer for things like dev test and backup. Of course, the wonderful thing that we've done, that we've gone beyond, above and beyond, what anybody else has done is we want to make sure that the actual primary application itself, one that was sort of built using NAS built in an on-premise environment an SAP and Oracle, et cetera, as Ed said, that we can move those over and have the confidence to run the application with no changes on an Amazon environment. So, so what we've really done, I think for customers, the NetApp customers, the non NetApp customers, is we've given them an enterprise grade shared storage platform that's as good in an Amazon cloud as it was in an on-premise data center. And that's something that's very unique to us. >> Can we talk a little bit more about those, those use cases? You know, both, both of you. What are you seeing as some of the more interesting ones that you can share? Ed, maybe you can start. >> Yeah, happy to. The customer discussions that we've, we've been in have really highlighted four cases, four use cases the customers are telling us they'll use a service for. So maybe I'll cover two and maybe Anthony can cover the other two. So, the first is application migrations. And customers are increasingly looking to move their applications to AWS. And a lot of those are applications work with file storage today. And so we're talking about applications like SAP. We're talking about relational databases like SQL server and Oracle. We're talking about vertical applications like Epic and the healthcare space. As another example, lots of media entertainment, rendering, and transcoding, and visual effects workload. workflows require Windows, Linux, and Mac iOS access to the same set of data. And what application administrators really want is they want the easy button. They want fully featured file storage that has the same capabilities, the same performance that their applications are used to. Has extremely high availability and durability, and it can easily enable them to meet compliance and security needs with a robust set of data protection and security capabilities. And I'll give you an example, Accenture, for example, has told us that a key obstacle their clients face when migrating to the cloud is potentially re-architecting their applications to adopt new technologies. And they expect that Amazon FSX for NetApp ONTAP will significantly accelerate their customers migrations to the cloud. Then a second one is storage migrations. So storage admins are increasingly looking to extend their on-premise storage to the cloud. And why they want to do that is they want to be more agile and they want to be responsive to growing data sets and growing workload needs. They want to last to capacity. They want the ability to spin up and spin down. They want easy disaster recovery across geographically isolated regions. They want the ability to change performance levels at any time. So all of this goodness that they get from the cloud is what they want. And more and more of them also are looking to make their company's data accessible to cloud services for analytics and processing. So services like ECS and EKS and workspaces and App Stream and VMware cloud and SageMaker and orchestration services like parallel cluster and AWS batch. But at the same time, they want all these cloud benefits, but at the same time, they have established data management workflows, and they build processes and they've built automation, leveraging APIs and capabilities of on-prem NAS appliances. It's really tough for them to just start from scratch with that stuff. So this offering provides them the best of both worlds. They get the benefits of the cloud with the NAS data management capabilities that they're used to. >> Right. >> Ed: So Anthony, maybe, do you want to talk about the other two? >> Well, so, you know, first and foremost, you heard from Ed earlier on the, the, the FSX sort of construct and how successful it's been. And one of the real reasons it's been so successful is, it takes advantage of all of the latest storage technologies, compute technologies, networking technologies. What's great is all of that's hidden from the user. What FSX does is it delivers a service. And what that means for an ONTAP customer is you're going to have ONTAP with an SLA and an SLM. You're going to have hundreds of thousands of IOPS available to you and sub-millisecond latencies. What's also really important is the design for FSX and app ONTAP was really to provide consistency on the NetApp API and to provide full access to ONTAP from the Amazon console, the Amazon SDK, or the Amazon CLI. So in this case, you've got this wonderful benefit of all of the, sort of the 29 years of innovation of NetApp combined with all the innovation AWS, all presented consistently to a customer. What Ed said, which I'm particularly excited about, is customers will see this just as they see any other AWS service. So if they want to use ONTAP in combination with some incremental compute resources, maybe with their own encryption keys, maybe with directory services, they may want to use it with other services like SageMaker. All of those things are immediately exposed to Amazon FSX for the app ONTAP. We do some really intelligent things just in the storage layer. So, for example, we do intelligent tiering. So the customer is constantly getting the, sort of the best TCO. So what that means is we're using Amazon's S3 storage as a tiered service, so that we can back off code data off of the primary file system to give the customer the optimal capacity, the optimal throughput, while maintaining the integrity of the file system. It's the same with backup. It's the same with disaster recovery, whether we're operating in a hybrid AWS cloud, or we're operating in an AWS region or across regions. >> Well, thank you. I think this, this announcement is a big deal for a number of reasons. First of all, it's the largest market. Like you said, you're the gold standard. I'll give you that, Anthony, because you guys earned it. And so it's a large market, but you always had to make previously, you have to make trade-offs. Either I could do file in the cloud, but I didn't get the rich functionality that, you know, NetApp's mature stack brings, or, you know, you could have wrapped your stack in Kubernete's container and thrown it into the cloud and hosted it there. But now that it's a managed service and presumably you're underneath, you're taking advantage. As I say, my inference is there's some serious engineering going on here. You're taking advantage of some of the cloud native capabilities. Yeah, maybe it's the different, you know, ECE two types, but also being able to bring in, we're, we're entering a new data era with machine intelligence and other capabilities that we really didn't have access to last decade. So I want to, I want to close with, you know, give you guys the last word. Maybe each of you could give me your thoughts on how you see this partnership of, for the, in the future. Particularly from a customer standpoint. Ed, maybe you could start. And then Anthony, you can bring us home. >> Yeah, well, Anthony and I and our teams have gotten to know each other really well in, in ideating around what this experience will be and then building the product. And, and we have this, this common vision that it is something that's going to really move the needle for customers. Providing the full ONTAP experience with the power of a, of a native AWS service. So we're really excited. We're, we're in this for the long haul together. We have, we've partnered on everything from engineering, to product management, to support. Like the, the full thing. This is a co-owned effort, a joint effort backed by both companies. And we have, I think a pretty remarkable product on day one, one that I think is going to delight customers. And we have a really rich roadmap that we're going to be building together over, over the years. So I'm excited about getting this in customer's hands. >> Great, thank you. Anthony, bring us home. >> Well, you know, it's one of those sorts of rare chances where you get to do something with Amazon that no one's ever done. You know, we're sort of sitting on the inside, we are a peer of theirs, and we're able to develop at very high speeds in combination with them to release continuously to the customer base. So what you're going to see here is rapid innovation. You're going to see a whole host of new services. Services that NetApp develops, services that Amazon develops. And then the whole ecosystem is going to have access to this, whether they're historically built on the NetApp APIs or increasingly built on the AWS APIs. I think you're going to see orchestrations. I think you're going to see the capabilities expand the overall opportunity for AWS to bring enterprise applications over. For me personally, Dave, you know, I've demonstrated yet again to the NetApp customer base, how much we care about them and their future. Selfishly, you know, I'm looking forward to telling the story to my competitors, customer base, because they haven't done it. So, you know, I think we've been bold. I think we've been committed as you said, three and a half years ago, I promised you that we were going to do everything we possibly could. You know, people always say, you know, what's, what's the real benefit of this. And at the end of the day, customers and partners will be the real winners. This, this innovation, this sort of, as a service I think is going to expand our market, allow our customers to do more with Amazon than they could before. It's one of those rare cases, Dave, where I think one plus one equals about seven, really. >> I love the vision and excited to see the execution Ed and Anthony, thanks so much for coming back in the Cube. Congratulations on getting to this point and good luck. >> Anthony and Ed: Thank you. >> All right. And thank you for watching everybody. This is Dave Vellante for the Cube's continuous coverage of AWS storage day. Keep it right there. (upbeat music)

>>Welcome back to the cubes coverage of dr khan 2021. I'm john for your host of the cube. We're here with Amanda Silver, corporate vice president, product developer division at Microsoft. Amanda, Great to see you you were on last year, Dr khan. Great to see you again a full year later were remote. Thanks for coming on. I know you're super busy with build happening this week as well. Thanks for making the time to come on the cube for Dr khan. >>Thank you so much for having me. Yeah, I'm joining you like many developers around the globe from my personal home office, >>developers really didn't skip a beat during the pandemic and again, it was not a good situation but developers, as you talked about last year on the front lines, first responders to creating value quite frankly, looking back you were pretty accurate in your prediction, developers did have an impact this year. They did create the kind of change that really changed the game for people's lives, whether it was developing solutions from a medical standpoint or even keeping systems running from call centres to making sure people got their their their goods or services and checks and and and kept sanity together. So. >>Yeah absolutely. I mean I think I think developers you know get the M. V. P. Award for this year because you know at the end of the day they are the digital first responders to the first responders and the pivot that we've had to make over the past year in terms of supporting remote telehealth, supporting you know online retail, curbside pickup. All of these things were done through developers being the ones pushing the way forward remote learning. You know my kids are learning at home right behind me right now so you might hear them during the interview that's happening because developers made that happen. >>I don't think mom please stop hogging the band with, they've got a gigabit. Stop it. Don't be streaming. My kids are all game anyway, Hey, great to have you on and you have to get the great keynote, exciting to see you guys continue the collaboration with Docker uh with GIT hub and Microsoft, A great combination, it's a 123 power punch of value. You guys are really kind of killing it. We heard from scott and dan has been on the cube. What's your thoughts on the partnership with the developer division team at Microsoft with Doctor, What's it all about this year? What's the next level? >>Well, I mean, I think, I think what's really awesome about this partnership is that we all have, we all are basically sharing a common mission. What we want to do is make sure that we're empowering developers, that we're focused on their productivity and that we're delivering value to them so they can do their job better so that they can help others. So that's really kind of what drives us day in and day out. So what we focus on is developer productivity. And I think that's a lot of what dana was talking about in her session, the developer division. Specifically, we really try to make sure that we're improving the state of the art from modern developers. So we want to make sure that every keystroke that they take, every mouse move that they make, it sounds like a song but every every one of those matter because we want to make sure that every developers writing the code that only they can write and in terms of the partnership and how that's going. You know my team and the darker team have been collaborating a ton on things like dr desktop and the Doctor Cli tool integrations. And one of the things that we do is we think about pain points and various workflows. We want to make sure that we're shaving off the edges of all of the user experience is the developers have to go through to piece all of these applications together. So one of the big pain points that we have heard from developers is that signing into the Azure cloud and especially our sovereign clouds was challenging. So we contributed back to uh back to doctor to actually make it easier to sign into these clouds. And so dr developers can now use dr desktop and the Doctor Cli to actually change the doctor context so that its Azure. So that makes it a lot easier to connect the other. Oh, sorry, go ahead. No, I was just >>going to say, I love the reference of the police song. Every breath you take, every >>mouth moving. Great, >>great line there. Uh, but I want to ask you while you're on this modern cloud um, discussion, what is I mean we have a lot of developers here at dr khan. As you know, you guys know developers in your ecosystem in core competency. From Microsoft, Kublai khan is a very operator like focus developed. This is a developer conference. You guys have build, what is the state of the art for a modern cloud developer? Could you just share your thoughts because this comes up a lot. You know, what's through the art? What's next jan new guard guard? It's his legacy. What is the state of the art for a modern cloud developer? >>Fantastic question. And extraordinarily relevant to this particular conference. You know what I think about often times it's really what is the inner loop and the outer loop look like in terms of cycle times? Because at the end of the day, what matters is the time that it takes for you to make that code change, to be able to see it in your test environment and to be able to deploy it to production and have the confidence that it's delivering the feature set that you need it to. And it's, you know, it's secure, it's reliable, it's performance, that's what a developer cares about at the end of the day. Um, at the same time, we also need to make sure that we're growing our team to meet our demand, which means we're constantly on boarding new developers. And so what I take inspiration from our, some of the tech elite who have been able to invest significant amounts in, in tuning their engineering systems, they've been able to make it so that a new developer can join a team in just a couple of minutes or less that they can actually make a code change, see that be reflected in their application in just a few seconds and deploy with confidence within hours. And so our goal is to actually be able to take that state of the art metric and democratize that actually bring it to as many of our customers as we possibly can. >>You mentioned supply chain earlier in securing that. What are you guys doing with Docker and how to make that partnership better with registries? Is there any update there in terms of the container registry on Azure? >>Yeah, I mean, you know, we, we we have definitely seen recent events and and it almost seems like a never ending attacks that that you know, increasingly are getting more and more focused on developer watering holes is how we think about it. Kind of developers being a primary target um for these malicious hackers. And so what it's more important than ever that every developer um and Microsoft especially uh really take security extraordinarily seriously. Our engineers are working around the clock to make sure that we are responding to every security incident that we hear about and partnering with our customers to make sure that we're supporting them as well. One of the things that we announced earlier this week at Microsoft build is that we've actually taken, get have actions and we've now integrated that into the Azure Security Center. And so what this means is that, you know, we can now do things like scan for vulnerabilities. Um look at things like who is logging in, where things like that and actually have that be tracked in the Azure security center so that not just your developers get that notification but also your I. T. Operations. Um In terms of the partnership with dR you know, this is actually an ongoing partnership to make sure that we can provide more guidance to developers to make sure that they are following best practices like pulling from a private registry like Docker hub or at your container registry. So I expect that as time goes on will continue to more in partnership in this space >>and that's going to give a lot of confidence. Actually, productivity wise is going to be a big help for developers. Great stuff is always good, good progress. They're moving the needle. >>Last time we >>spoke we talked about tools and setting Azure as the doctor context duty tooling updates here at dot com this year. That's notable. >>Yeah, I mean, I think, you know, there's one major thing that we've been working on which has a big dependency on docker is get help. Code space is now one of the biggest pain points that developers have is setting up a new DEV box, which they often have to do when they are on boarding a new employee or when they're starting a new project or even if they're just kicking the tires on a new technology that they want to be able to evaluate and sometimes creating a developer environment can actually take hours um and especially when you're trying to create a developer environment that matches somebody else's developer environment that can take like a half a day and you can spend all of your time just debugging the differences in environment variables, for example, um, containers actually makes that much easier. So what you can do with this, this services, you can actually create death environment spun up in the cloud and you can access it in seconds and you get from there are working coding environment and a runtime environment and this is repeatable via containers. So it means that there's no inadvertent differences introduced by each DEV. And you might be interested to know that underneath this is actually using Docker files and dr composed to orchestrate the debits and the runtime bits for a whole bunch of different stacks. And so this is something that we're actually working on in collaboration with the with the doctor team to have a common the animal format. And in fact this week we actually introduced a couple of app templates so that everybody can see this all in action. So if you check out a ca dot m s forward slash app template, you can see this in action yourself. >>You guys have always had such a strong developer community and one thing I love about cloud as it brings more agility, as we always talk about. But when you start to see the enterprise grow into, the direction is going now, it's almost like the developer communities are emerging, it's no longer about all the Lennox folks here and the dot net folks there, you've got windows, you've got cloud, >>it's almost >>the the the solidification of everyone kind of coming together. Um and visual studio, for instance, last year, I think you were talking about that to having to be interrogated dr composed, et cetera. >>How do you see >>this melting pot emerging? Because at the end of the day, you pick the language you love and you got devops, which is infrastructure as code doesn't matter. So give us your take on where we are with that whole progress of of making that happen. >>Well, I mean I definitely think that, you know, developer environments and and kind of, you know, our approach to them don't need to be as dogmatic as they've been in the past. I really think that, you know, you can pick the right tool and language and stand developer stack for your team, for your experience and you can be productive and that's really our goal. And Microsoft is to make sure that we have tools for every developer and every team so that they can build any app that they want to want to create. Even if that means that they're actually going to end up ultimately deploying that not to our cloud, they're going to end up deploying it to AWS or another another competitive cloud. And so, you know, there's a lot of things that we've been doing to make that really much easier. We have integrated container tools in visual studio and visual studio code and better cli integrations like with the doctor context that we had talked about a little bit earlier. We continue to try to make it easier to build applications that are targeting containers and then once you create those containers it's much easier to take it to another environment. One of the examples of this kind of work is now that we have WsL and the Windows subsystem for Lennox. This makes it a lot easier for developers who prefer a Windows operating system as their environment and maybe some tools like Visual Studio that run on Windows, but they can still target Lennox with as their production environment without any impedance mismatch. They can actually be as productive as they would be if they had a Linux box as their Os >>I noticed on this session, I got to call this out. I want to get your reaction to it interesting. Selection of Microsoft talks, the container based development. Visual studio code is one that's where you're going to show some some some container action going on with note and Visual Studio code. And then you get the machine learning with Azure uh containers in the V. S. Code. Interesting how you got, you know, containers with V. S. And now you've got machine learning. What does that tell the world about where Microsoft's at? Because in a way you got the cutting edge container management on one side with the doctor integration. Now you get the machine learning which everyone's talking about shifting, left more automation. Why are these sessions so important? Why should people attend? And what's the what's the bottom line? >>Well, like I said, like containers basically empower developer productivity. Um that's what creates the reputable environments, that's what allows us to make sure that, you know, we're productive as soon as we possibly can be with any text act that we want to be able to target. Um and so that's kind of almost the ecosystem play. Um it's how every developer can contribute to the success of others and we can amor ties the kinds of work that we do to set up an environment. So that's what I would say about the container based development that we're doing with both visual studio and visual studio code. Um in terms of the machine learning development, uh you know, the number of machine learning developers in the world is relatively small, but it's growing and it's obviously a very important set of developers because to train a machine learning uh to train an ml model, it actually requires a significant amount of compute resources, and so that's a perfect opportunity to bring in the research that are in a public cloud. Um What's actually really interesting about that particular develop developer stack is that it commonly runs on things like python. And for those of you who have developed in python, you know, just how difficult it is to actually set up a python environment with the right interpreter, with the right run time, with the right libraries that can actually get going super quickly, um and you can be productive as a developer. And so it's actually one of the hardest, most challenging developer stacks to actually set up. And so this allows you to become a machine learning developer without having to spend all of your time just setting up the python runtime environment. >>Yeah, it's a nice, nice little call out on python, it's a double edged sword. It's easier to sling code around on one hand, when you start getting working then you gotta it gets complicated can get well. Um Well the great, great call out there on the island, but good, good, good project. Let me get your thoughts on this other tool that you guys are talking about project tie. Uh This is interesting because this is a trend that we're seeing a lot of conversations here on the cube about around more too many control planes. Too many services. You know, I no longer have that monolithic application. I got micro micro applications with microservices. What the hell is going on with my services? >>Yeah, I mean, I think, you know, containers brought an incredible amount of productivity in terms of having repeatable environments, both for dev environments, which we talked about a lot on this interview already, but also obviously in production and test environments. Super important. Um and with that a lot of times comes the microservices architecture that we're also moving to and the way that I view it is the microservices architecture is actually accompanied by businesses being more focused on the value that they can actually deliver to customers. And so they're trying to kind of create separations of concerns in terms of the different services that they're offering, so they can actually version and and kind of, you know, actually improve each of these services independently. But what happens when you start to have many microservices working together in a SAS or in some kind of aggregate um service environment or kind of application environment is it starts to get unwieldy, it's really hard to make it so that one micro service can actually address another micro service. They can pass information back and forth. And you know what used to be maybe easy if you were just building a client server application because, you know, within the server tear all of your code was basically contained in the same runtime environment. That's no longer the case when every microservices actually running inside of its own container. So the question is, how can we improve program ability by making it easier for one micro service that's being used in an application environment, be to be able to access another another service and kind of all of that context. Um and so, you know, you want to be able to access the service is the the api endpoint, the containers, the ingress is everything, make everything work together as though it felt just as easy as as um you know, server application development. Um And so what this means as well is that you also oftentimes need to get all of these different containers running at the same time and that can actually be a challenge in the developer and test loop as well. So what project tie does is it improves the program ability and it actually allows you to just write a command like thai run so that you can actually in stan she ate all of these containers and get them up and running and basically deploy and run your application in that environment and ultimately make the dev testing or loop much faster >>than productivity gain. Right. They're making it simple to stand up. Great, great stuff. Let me ask you a question as we kind of wrap down here for the folks here at Dakar Con, are >>there any >>special things you'd like to talk about the development you think are important for the developers here within this space? It's very dynamic. A lot of change happening in a good way. Um, but >>sometimes it's hard to keep >>track of all the cool stuff happening. Could you take a minute to, to share your thoughts on what you think are the most important develops developments in this space? That that might be interesting to ducker con attendees. >>I think the most important things are to recognize that developer environments are moving to containerized uh, environments themselves so that they can be repeated, they can be shared, the work, configuring them can be amortized across many developers. That's important thing. Number one important thing. Number two is it doesn't matter as much what operating system you're running as your chrome, you know, desktop. What matters is ultimately the production environment that you're targeting. And so I think now we're in a world where all of those things can be mixed and matched together. Um and then I think the next thing is how can we actually improve microservices, uh programming development together um so that it's easier to be able to target multiple micro services that are working in aggregate uh to create a single service experience or a single application. And how do we improve the program ability for that? >>You know, you guys have been great supporters of DACA and the community and open source and software developers as they transform and become quite frankly the superheroes for the transformation, which is re factoring businesses. So this has been a big thing. I'd love to get your thoughts on how this is all coming together inside Microsoft, you've got your division, you get the developer division, you got GIT hub, got Azure. Um, and then just historically, and he put this up last year army of an ecosystem. People who have been contributing encoding with Microsoft and the partners for many, many decades. >>Yes. The >>heart Microsoft now, how's it all working? What's the news? I get Lincoln, Lincoln, but there's no yet developer model there yet, but probably is soon. >>Um Yeah, I mean, I think that's a pretty broad question, but in some ways I think it's interesting to put it in the context of Microsoft's history. You know, I think when I think back to the beginning of my career, it was kind of a one stack shop, you know, we was all about dot net and you know, of course we want to dot net to be the best developer environment that it can possibly be. We still actually want that. We still want that need to be the most productive developer environment. It could we could possibly build. Um but at the same time, I think we have to recognize that not all developers or dot net developers and we want to make sure that Azure is the most productive cloud for developers and so to do that, we have to make sure that we're building fantastic tools and platforms to host java applications, javascript applications, no Js applications, python applications, all of those things, you know, all of these developers in the world, we want to make sure it can be productive on our tools and our platforms and so, you know, I think that's really kind of the key of you know what you're speaking of because you know, when I think about the partnership that I have with the GIT hub team or with the Azure team or with the Azure Machine learning team or the Lincoln team, um A lot of it actually comes down to helping empower developers, improving their productivity, helping them find new developers to collaborate with, um making sure that they can do that securely and confidently and they can basically respond to their customers as quickly as they possibly can. Um and when, when we think about partnering inside of Microsoft with folks like linkedin or office as an example, a lot of our partnership with them actually comes down to improving their colleagues efficiency. We build the developer tools that office and lengthen are built on top of and so every once in a while we will make an improvement that has, you know, 5% here, 3% there and it turns into an incredible amount of impact in terms of operations, costs for running these services. >>It's interesting. You mentioned earlier, I think there's a time now we're living in a time where you don't have to be dogmatic anymore, you can pick what you like and go with it. Also that you also mentioned just now this idea of distributed applications, distributed computing. You know, distributed applications and microservices go really well together. Especially with doctor. >>Can you share >>your thoughts on the framework that you guys released called Dapper? >>Yeah, yeah. We recently released Dapper. It's called D A P R. You can look it up on GIT hub and it's a programming model for common microservices pattern, two common microservices patterns that make it really easy and automatic to create those kinds of microservices. So you can choose to work with your favorite state stores or databases or pub sub components and get things like cloud events for free. You can choose either http or g R B C so that you can get mesh capabilities like service discovery and re tries and you can bring your own secret store and easily be able to call it from any environment variable. It's also like I was talking about earlier, multi lingual. Um so you don't need to embrace dot net, for example, as you're programming language to be able to benefit from Dapper, it actually supports many programming languages and Dapper itself is actually written and go. Um and so, you know, all developers can benefit from something like Dapper to make it easier to create microservices applications. >>I mean, always great to have you on great update. Take a minute to give an update on what's going on with your division. I know you had to build conference this week. V. S has got the new preview title. We just talked about what are the things you want to get to plug in for? Take a minute to get to plug in for what you're working on, your goals, your objectives hiring, give us the update. >>Yeah, sure. I mean, you know, we we built integrated container tools in visual studio uh and the Doctor extension and Visual Studio code and cli extensions. Uh and you know, even in this most recent release of our Visual Studio product, Visual Studio 16 10, we added some features to make it easier to use DR composed better. So one of the examples of this is that you can actually have uh Oftentimes you need to be able to use multiple doctor composed files together so that you can actually configure various different container environments for a single single application. But it's hard sometimes to create the right Yeah. My file so that you can actually invoke it and invoke the the container and the micro services that you need. And so what this allows you to do is to actually have just a menu of the different doctor composed files so that you can select the runtime and test environment that you need for the subset of the portion of the application that you're working on at the end of the day. This is always about developer productivity. You know, like I said, every keystroke matters. Um and we want to make sure that you as a developer can focus on the code that only you can Right. >>Amanda Silver, corporate vice president product development division of Microsoft. Always great to see you and chat with you remotely soon. We'll be back in in real life with real events soon as we come out of the pandemic and thanks for sharing your insight and congratulations on your success this year and and congratulations on your announcement here at Dakar Gone. >>Thank you so much for having me. >>Okay Cube coverage for Dunkirk on 2021. I'm John for your host of the Cube. Thanks for watching. Mhm

>>mhm Yes. >>Hello and welcome back to the cubes coverage of dr khan 2021 virtual. I'm john Kerry hosted the Q got a great cube segment here. Simon Maple Field C T Oh it's technique. Great company security shifting left great to have you on Simon. Thanks for thanks for stopping by >>absolute pleasure. Thank you very much for having me. >>So you guys were on last year the big partnership with DR Conn remember that interview vividly because it was really the beginning at the beginning but really come to me the mainstream of shifting left as devops. It's not been it's been around for a while. But as a matter of practice as containers have been going super mainstream. Super ballistic in the developer community then you're seeing what's happening. It's containers everywhere. Security Now dev sec apps is the standard. So devops great infrastructure as code. We all know that but now it's def sec ops is standard. This is the real deal. Give us the update on what's going on with sneak. >>Absolutely, yeah. And you know, we're still tireless in our approach of trying to get make sure developers don't just have the visibility of security but are very much empowered in terms of actually fixing issues and secure development is what we're really striving for. So yeah, the update, we're still very, very deep into a partnership with DACA. We have updates on DR desktop which allows developers to scan the containers on the command line, providing developers that really fast feedback as as early as possible. We also have uh, you know, new updates and support for running Docker scan on Lennox. Um, and yeah, you know, we're still there on the Docker hub and providing that security insights um, to, to users who are going to Docker hub to grab their images. >>Well, for the folks watching maybe for the first time, the sneak Docker partnership, we went in great detail last year was the big reveal why Docker and sneak partnership, what is the evolution of that partnership over the year? They speak highly of you guys as a developer partner. Why Doctor? What's the evolution looked like? >>It's a it's a really great question. And I think, you know, when you look at the combination of DACA and sneak well actually let's take let's take each as an individual. Both companies are very, very developer focused. First of all, right, so our goals and will be strife or what we what we tirelessly spend their time doing is creating features and creating, creating an environment in which a developer you can do what they need to do as easily as possible. And that, you know, everyone says they want to be developer friendly, They want to be developer focused. But very few companies can achieve. And you look at a company like doctor, you're a company like sneak it really, really provides that developer with the developer experience that they need to actually get things done. Um, and it's not just about being in a place that a developer exists. It's not enough to do that. You need to provide a developer with that experience. So what we wanted to do was when we saw doctor and extremely developer friendly environment and a developer friendly company, when we saw the opportunity there to partner with Yoko, we wanted to provide our security developer friendliness and developer experience into an already developed a friendly tool. So what the partnership provides is the ease of, you know, deploying code in a container combined with the ease of testing your code for security issues and fixing security issues in your code and your container and pulling it together in one place. Now, one of the things which we as a as a security company um pride ourselves on is actually not necessarily saying we provide security tools. One of what our favorite way of saying is we're a developer tooling company. So we provide tools that are four developers now in doing that. It's important you go to where the developers are and developers on DACA are obviously in places like the Docker hub or the Docker Cli. And so it's important for us to embed that behavior and that ease of use inside Dhaka for us to have that uh that that flow. So the developer doesn't need to leave the Docker Cli developer that doesn't need to leave Docker hub in order to see that data. If you want to go deeper, then there are probably easier ways to find that data perhaps with sneak or on the sneak site or something like that. But the core is to get that insight to get that visibility and to get that remediation, you can see that directly in in the in the Dhaka environment. And so that's what makes the relationship so so powerful. The fact that you combine everything together and you do it at source >>and doing it at the point of code. >>Writing >>code is one of the big things I've always liked about the value proposition is simple shift left. Um So let's just step back for a second. I got to ask you this question because this I wanted to make sure we get this on the table. What are the main challenges uh and needs to, developers have with container security? What are you seeing as the main top uh A few things that they need to have right now for the challenges uh with container security? >>Yeah, it's a it's a very good question. And I think to answer that, I think we need to um we need to think of it in a couple of ways. First of all, you've just got developers security uh in general, across containers. Um And the that in itself is there are different levels at which developers engage with containers. Um In some organizations, you have security teams that are very stringent in terms of what developers can and can't do in other organizations. It's very much the developer that that chooses their environment, chooses their parent image, et cetera. And so there when a developer has many, many choices in which they need to need to decide on, some of those choices will lead to more issues, more risk. And when we look at a cloud native environment, um uh Let's take let's take a node uh image as an example, the number of different uh images tags you can choose from as a developer. It's you know, there are hundreds, probably thousands. That you can actually you can actually choose. What is the developer gonna do? Well, are they going to just copy paste from another doctor file, for example, most likely. What if there are issues in that docker file? They're just gonna copy paste that across mis configurations that exist. Not because the developer is making the wrong decision, but because the developer very often doesn't necessarily know that they need to add a specific directive in. Uh So it's not necessarily what you add in a conflict file, but it's very often what you admit. So there are a couple of things I would say from a developer point of view that are important when we think about cloud security, the first one is just that knowledge that understanding what they need to do, why they need to do it. Secure development doesn't need to be, doesn't mean they need to be deep in security. It means they need to understand how they can develop securely and what what the best decisions that could come from guard rails, from the security team that they provide the development team to offer. But that's the that's an important error of secure development. The second thing and I think one of the most important things is understanding or not understanding necessarily, but having the information to get an act on those things early. So we know the length of time that developers are uh working on a branch or working on um some some code changes that is reducing more and more and more so that we can push to production very, very quickly. Um What we need to do is make sure that as a developer is making their changes, they can make the right decision at the right time and they have the right information at that time. And a lot of this could be getting information from tools, could be getting information from your team where it could be getting information from your production environments and having that information early is extremely important to make. That decision. May be in isolation with your team in an autonomous way or with advice from the security team. But I would say those are the two things having that information that will allow you to make that action, that positive change. Um uh and and yeah, understanding and having that knowledge about how you can develop security. >>All right. So I have a security thing. So I'm a development team and by the way, this whole team's thing is a huge deal. I think we'll get to that. I want to come back to that in a second but just throw this out there. Got containers, got some security, it's out there and you got kubernetes clusters where containers are coming and going. Sometimes containers could have malware in them. Um and and this is, I've heard this out and about how do how that happens off container or off process? How do you know about it? Is that infected by someone else? I mean is it gonna be protected? How does the development team once it's released into the wild, so to speak. Not to be like that, but you get the idea, it's like, okay, I'm concerned off process this containers flying around. What is it How do you track all >>and you know, there's a there's a few things here that are kind of like potential potential areas that, you know, we can trip up when we think about malware that's running um there are certain things that we need to that we need to consider and what we're really looking at here are kind of, what do we have in place in the runtime that can kind of detect these issues are happening? How do we block that? And how do you provide that information back to the developer? The area that I think is, and that is very, very important in order to in order to be able to identify monitor that those environments and then feed that back. So that that that's the kind of thing that can be that can be fixed. Another aspect is, is the static issues and the static issues whether that's in your os in your OS packages, for example, that could be key binaries that exist in your in your in your docker container out the box as well or of course in your application, these are again, areas that are extremely important to detect and they can be detected very very early. So some things, you know, if it's malware in a package that has been identified as malware then absolutely. That can be that can be tracked very very early. Sometimes these things need to be detected a little bit later as well. But yeah, different tools for different for different environments and wear sneak is really focused. Is this static analysis as early as possible. >>Great, great insight there. Thanks for sharing that certainly. Certainly important. And you know, some companies classes are locked down and all of sudden incomes, you know, some some malware from a container, people worried about that. So I want to bring that up. Uh The other thing I want to ask you is this idea of end to end security um and this is a team formation thing we're seeing where modern teams have essentially visibility of their workload and to end. So this is a huge topic. And then by the way it might integrate their their app might integrate with other processes to that's great for containers as well and observe ability and microservices. So this is the trend. What's in it for the developer? If I work with sneak and docker, what benefits do I get if I want to go down that road of having these teams began to end, but I want the security built in. >>Mhm. Yeah, really, really important. And I think what's what's most important there is if we don't look end to end, there are component views and there are applications. If we don't look into end, we could have our development team fixing things that realistically aren't in production anyway or aren't the key risks that are potentially hurting us in our production environment. So it's important to have that end to end of you so that we have the right insights and can prioritize what we need to identify and look at early. Um, so I think, I think that visibility into end is extremely important. If we think about who, who is re fixing uh certain issues, again, this is gonna depend from dog to walk, but what we're seeing more and more is this becoming a developer lead initiative to not just find or be given that information, but ultimately fixed. They're getting more and more responsible for DR files for for I see for for their application code as well. So one of the areas which we've looked into as well is identifying and actually running in cuba Netease workloads to identify where the most important areas that a developer needs to look at and this is all about prioritization. So, you know, if the developer has just a component view and they have 100 different images, 100 different kubernetes conflicts, you know, et cetera. Where do they prioritize, where do they spend their time? They shouldn't consider everything equal. So this identification of where the workloads are running and what um is causing you the most risk as a business and as an organization, that is the data. That can be directly fed back into your, your your vulnerability data and then you can prioritize based on the kubernetes workloads that are in your production and that can be fed directly into the results in the dashboards. That's neat. Can provide you as well. So that end to end story really provides the context you need in order to not just develop securely, but act and action issues in a proper way. >>That's a great point. Context matters here because making it easy to do the right thing as early as possible, the right time is totally an efficiency productivity gain, you see in that that's clearly what people want. It's a great formula, success, reduce the time it takes to do something, reduced the steps and make it easy. Right, come on, that's a that's a formula. Okay, so I gotta bring that to the next level. When I ask you specifically around automation, this is one the hot topic and def sec ops, automation is part of it. You got scale, you got speed, you've got a I machine learning, you go out of all these new things. Microservices, how do you guys fit into the automation story? >>It's a great question. And you know, one of the recent reports that we that we did based on a survey data this year called the state of a state of cloud, native applications security. We we asked the question how automated our people in their in their deployment pipelines and we found some really strong correlations between value from a security point of view um in terms of in terms of having that automation in it, if I can take you through a couple of them and then I'll address that question about how we can be automated in that. So what we found is a really strong correlation as you would expect with security testing in ci in your source code repositories and all the way through the deployment ci and source code were the two of the most most well tested areas across the pipeline. However the most automated teams were twice as likely to test in I. D. S. And testing your CLS in local development. And now those are areas that are really hard to automate if at all because it's developers running running their cli developers running and testing in their I. D. So the having a full automation and full uh proper testing throughout the sclc actually encourages and and makes developers test more in their development environment. I'm not saying there's causation there but there's definite correlation. A couple of other things that this pushes is um Much much more likely to test daily or continuously being automated as you would expect because it's part of the bills as part of your monitoring. But crucially uh 73% of our respondents were able to fix a critical issue in less than a week as opposed to just over 30% of people that were not automated, so almost double people are More likely to fix within a week. 36% of people who are automated can fix a critical security issue in less than a day as opposed to 8% of people who aren't automated. So really strong data that correlates being automated with being able to react now. If you look at something like Sneak what if our um goals of obviously being developer friendly developer first and being able to integrate where developers are and throughout the pipeline we want to test everywhere and often. Okay, so we start as far left as we can um integrating into, you know, CLS integrating into Docker hub, integrating into into doctors can so at the command line you type in doctors can you get sneak embedded in DHAKA desktop to provide you those results so as early as possible, you get that data then all the way through to to uh get reposed providing that testing and automatically testing and importing results from there as well as as well as other repositories, container repositories, being at a poor from there and test then going into ci being able to run container tests in C I to make sure we're not regressing and to choose what we want to do their whether we break, whether we continue with with raising an issue or something like that, and then continuing beyond that into production. So we can monitor tests and automatically send pull requests, etcetera. As and when new issues or new fixes occur. So it's about integrating at every single stage, but providing some kind of action. So, for example, in our ui we provide the ability to say this is the base level you should be or could be at, it will reduce your number of vulnerabilities by X and as a result you're going to be that much more secure that action ability across the pipeline. >>That's a great, great data dump, that's a masterclass right there on automation. Thanks for sharing that sign. I appreciate it. I gotta ask you the next question that comes to my mind because I think this is kind of the dots connect for the customer is okay. I love this kind of hyper focus on containers and security. You guys are all over it, shift left as far as possible, be there all the time, test, test, test all through the life cycle of the code. Well, the one thing that is popping up as a huge growth areas, obviously hybrid cloud devops across both environments and the edge, whether it's five G industrial or intelligent edge, you're gonna have kubernetes clusters at the edge now. So you've got containers. The relationship to kubernetes and then ultimately cloud native work clothes at, say, the edge, which has data has containers. So there's a lot of stuff going on all over the place. What's your, what's your comment there for customer says, Hey, you know, I got, this is my architecture that's happening to me now. I'm building it out. We're comfortable with kubernetes put in containers everywhere, even on the edge how to sneak fit into that story. >>Yeah, really, really great question. And I think, you know, a lot of what we're doing right now is looking at a developer platform. So we care about, we care about everything that a developer can check in. Okay, so we care about get, we care about the repositories, we care about the artifact. So um, if you look at the expansion of our platform today, we've gone from code that people uh, third party libraries that people test. We added containers. We've also added infrastructure as code. So Cuban eighties conflicts, Terror form scripts and things like that. We're we're able to look at everything that the developer touches from their code with sneak code all the way through to your to your container. And I see, so I think, you know, as we see more and more of this pushing out into the edge, cuba Nitties conflict that that, you know, controls a lot of that. So much of this is now going to be or not going to be, but so much of the environment that we need to look at is in the configurations or the MIS configurations in that in those deployment scripts, um, these are some of the areas which which we care a lot about in terms of trying to identify those vulnerabilities, those miS configurations that exist within within those scripts. So I can see yeah more and more of this and there's a potential shift like that across to the edge. I think it's actually really exciting to be able to see, to be able to see those uh, those pushing across. I don't necessarily see any other, any, you know, different security threats or the threat landscape changing as a result of that. Um there could be differences in terms of configurations, in terms of miS configurations that that that could increase as a result, but, you know, a lot of this and it just needs to be dealt with in the appropriate way through tooling through, through education of of of of how that's done. >>Well, obviously threat vectors are all gonna look devops like there's no perimeter. So they're everywhere right? Looking at I think like a hacker to be being there. Great stuff. Quick question on the future relationship with DR. Obviously you're betting a lot here on that container relationship, a good place to start. A lot of benefits there. They have dependencies, they're going to have implications. People love them, they love to use them, helps old run with the new and helps the new run better. Certainly with kubernetes, everything gets better together. What's the future with the DACA relationship? Take us through how you see it. >>So yeah, I mean it's been an absolute blast the doctor and you know, even from looking at some of the internal internal chats, it's been it's been truly wonderful to see the, the way in which both the doctor and sneak from everything from an engineering point of view from a marketing, from a product team. It's been a pleasure to, it's been a pleasure to see that relationship grow and flourish. And, and I think there's two things, first of all, I think it's great that as companies, we, we both worked very, very well together. I think as as as users um seeing, you know, doctor and and and sneak work so so seamlessly and integrated a couple of things. I would love to see. Um, I think what we're gonna see more and more and this is one of the areas that I think, um you know, looking at the way sneak is going to be viewing security in general. We see a lot of components scanning a lot, a lot of people looking at a components can and seeing vulnerabilities in your components. Can I think what we need to, to to look more upon is consolidating a lot of the a lot of the data which we have in and around different scans. What I would love to see is perhaps, you know, if you're running something through doctors can how can you how can you view that data through through sneak perhaps how can we get that closer integration through the data that we that we see. So I would love to see a lot more of that occur, you know, within that relationship and these are kind of like, you know, we're getting to that at that stage where we see integration, it just various levels. So we have the integration where we have we are embedded but how can we make that better for say a sneak user who also comes to the sneak pages and wants to see that data through sneak. So I would love to see at that level uh more there where as I mentioned, we have we have some some additional support as well. So you can run doctors can from from Lenox as well. So I can see more and more of that support rolling out but but yeah, in terms of the future, that's where I would love to see us uh to grow more >>and I'll see in the landscape side on the industry side, um, security is going beyond the multiple control planes out there. Kubernetes surveillance service matches, etcetera, continues to be the horizontally scalable cloud world. I mean, and you got you mentioned the edge. So a lot more complexity to rein in and make easier. >>Yeah, I mean there's a lot more complexity, you know, from a security point of view, the technology is the ability to move quickly and react fast in production actually help security a lot because you know, being able to spin a container and make changes and and bring a container down. These things just weren't possible, you know, 10 years ago, 20 years ago. Pre that it's like it was it's insanely hard compared trying to trying to do that compared to just re spinning a container up. However, the issue I see from a security point of view, the concerns I see is more around a culture and an education point of view of we've got all this great tech and it's it's awesome but we need to do it correctly. So making sure that as you mentioned with making the right decision, what we want to make sure is that right decision is also the easy decision and the clear decision. So we just need to make sure that as we as we go down this journey and we're going down it fast and it's not gonna, I don't see it slowing down, we're going fast down that journey. How do we make, how do we prepare ourselves for that? We're already seeing, you know, miss configurations left, right and center in the news, I am roles as three buckets, etcetera. These are they're they're simpler fixes than we than we believe, right? We just need to identify them and and make those changes as needed. So we just need to make sure that that is in place as we go forward. But it's exciting times for sure. >>It's really exciting. And you got the scanning and right at the point of coding automation to help take that basic mis configuration, take that off the table. Not a lot of manual work, but ultimately get to that cloud scale cool stuff. >>Simon, thank you >>for coming on the cube dr khan coverage. Really appreciate your time. Drop some nice commentary there. Really appreciate it. Thank you. >>My pleasure. Thank you very much. >>Simon Maple Field C T. O. A sneak hot startup. Big partner with Docker Security, actually built in deVOPS, is now dead. Say cops. This is dr khan cube 2021 virtual coverage. I'm sean for your host. Thanks for watching. Mm.

>>Individuals create developers, translate ideas to code, to create great applications and great applications. Touch everyone. A Docker. We know that collaboration is key to your innovation sharing ideas, working together. Launching the most secure applications. Docker is with you wherever your team innovates, whether it be robots or autonomous cars, we're doing research to save lives during a pandemic, revolutionizing, how to buy and sell goods online, or even going into the unknown frontiers of space. Docker is launching innovation everywhere. Join us on the journey to build, share, run the future. >>Hello and welcome to Docker con 2021. We're incredibly excited to have more than 80,000 of you join us today from all over the world. As it was last year, this year at DockerCon is 100% virtual and 100% free. So as to enable as many community members as possible to join us now, 100%. Virtual is also an acknowledgement of the continuing global pandemic in particular, the ongoing tragedies in India and Brazil, the Docker community is a global one. And on behalf of all Dr. Khan attendees, we are donating $10,000 to UNICEF support efforts to fight the virus in those countries. Now, even in those regions of the world where the pandemic is being brought under control, virtual first is the new normal. It's been a challenging transition. This includes our team here at Docker. And we know from talking with many of you that you and your developer teams are challenged by this as well. So to help application development teams better collaborate and ship faster, we've been working on some powerful new features and we thought it would be fun to start off with a demo of those. How about it? Want to have a look? All right. Then no further delay. I'd like to introduce Youi Cal and Ben, gosh, over to you and Ben >>Morning, Ben, thanks for jumping on real quick. >>Have you seen the email from Scott? The one about updates and the docs landing page Smith, the doc combat and more prominence. >>Yeah. I've got something working on my local machine. I haven't committed anything yet. I was thinking we could try, um, that new Docker dev environments feature. >>Yeah, that's cool. So if you hit the share button, what I should do is it will take all of your code and the dependencies and the image you're basing it on and wrap that up as one image for me. And I can then just monitor all my machines that have been one click, like, and then have it side by side, along with the changes I've been looking at as well, because I was also having a bit of a look and then I can really see how it differs to what I'm doing. Maybe I can combine it to do the best of both worlds. >>Sounds good. Uh, let me get that over to you, >>Wilson. Yeah. If you pay with the image name, I'll get that started up. >>All right. Sen send it over >>Cheesy. Okay, great. Let's have a quick look at what you he was doing then. So I've been messing around similar to do with the batter. I've got movie at the top here and I think it looks pretty cool. Let's just grab that image from you. Pick out that started on a dev environment. What this is doing. It's just going to grab the image down, which you can take all of the code, the dependencies only get brunches working on and I'll get that opened up in my idea. Ready to use. It's a here close. We can see our environment as my Molly image, just coming down there and I've got my new idea. >>We'll load this up and it'll just connect to my dev environment. There we go. It's connected to the container. So we're working all in the container here and now give it a moment. What we'll do is we'll see what changes you've been making as well on the code. So it's like she's been working on a landing page as well, and it looks like she's been changing the banner as well. So let's get this running. Let's see what she's actually doing and how it looks. We'll set up our checklist and then we'll see how that works. >>Great. So that's now rolling. So let's just have a look at what you use doing what changes she had made. Compare those to mine just jumped back into my dev container UI, see that I've got both of those running side by side with my changes and news changes. Okay. So she's put Molly up there rather than mobi or somebody had the same idea. So I think in a way I can make us both happy. So if we just jumped back into what we'll do, just add Molly and Moby and here I'll save that. And what we can see is, cause I'm just working within the container rather than having to do sort of rebuild of everything or serve, or just reload my content. No, that's straight the page. So what I can then do is I can come up with my browser here. Once that's all refreshed, refresh the page once hopefully, maybe twice, we should then be able to see your refresh it or should be able to see that we get Malia mobi come up. So there we go, got Molly mobi. So what we'll do now is we'll describe that state. It sends us our image and then we'll just create one of those to share with URI or share. And we'll get a link for that. I guess we'll send that back over to you. >>So I've had a look at what you were doing and I'm actually going to change. I think that might work for both of us. I wondered if you could take a look at it. If I send it over. >>Sounds good. Let me grab the link. >>Yeah, it's a dev environment link again. So if you just open that back in the doc dashboard, it should be able to open up the code that I've changed and then just run it in the same way you normally do. And that shouldn't interrupt what you're already working on because there'll be able to run side by side with your other brunch. You already got, >>Got it. Got it. Loading here. Well, that's great. It's Molly and movie together. I love it. I think we should ship it. >>Awesome. I guess it's chip it and get on with the rest of.com. Wasn't that cool. Thank you Joey. Thanks Ben. Everyone we'll have more of this later in the keynote. So stay tuned. Let's say earlier, we've all been challenged by this past year, whether the COVID pandemic, the complete evaporation of customer demand in many industries, unemployment or business bankruptcies, we all been touched in some way. And yet, even to miss these tragedies last year, we saw multiple sources of hope and inspiration. For example, in response to COVID we saw global communities, including the tech community rapidly innovate solutions for analyzing the spread of the virus, sequencing its genes and visualizing infection rates. In fact, if all in teams collaborating on solutions for COVID have created more than 1,400 publicly shareable images on Docker hub. As another example, we all witnessed the historic landing and exploration of Mars by the perseverance Rover and its ingenuity drone. >>Now what's common in these examples, these innovative and ambitious accomplishments were made possible not by any single individual, but by teams of individuals collaborating together. The power of teams is why we've made development teams central to Docker's mission to build tools and content development teams love to help them get their ideas from code to cloud as quickly as possible. One of the frictions we've seen that can slow down to them in teams is that the path from code to cloud can be a confusing one, riddle with multiple point products, tools, and images that need to be integrated and maintained an automated pipeline in order for teams to be productive. That's why a year and a half ago we refocused Docker on helping development teams make sense of all this specifically, our goal is to provide development teams with the trusted content, the sharing capabilities and the pipeline integrations with best of breed third-party tools to help teams ship faster in short, to provide a collaborative application development platform. >>Everything a team needs to build. Sharon run create applications. Now, as I noted earlier, it's been a challenging year for everyone on our planet and has been similar for us here at Docker. Our team had to adapt to working from home local lockdowns caused by the pandemic and other challenges. And despite all this together with our community and ecosystem partners, we accomplished many exciting milestones. For example, in open source together with the community and our partners, we open sourced or made major contributions to many projects, including OCI distribution and the composed plugins building on these open source projects. We had powerful new capabilities to the Docker product, both free and subscription. For example, support for WSL two and apple, Silicon and Docker, desktop and vulnerability scanning audit logs and image management and Docker hub. >>And finally delivering an easy to use well-integrated development experience with best of breed tools and content is only possible through close collaboration with our ecosystem partners. For example, this last year we had over 100 commercialized fees, join our Docker verified publisher program and over 200 open source projects, join our Docker sponsored open source program. As a result of these efforts, we've seen some exciting growth in the Docker community in the 12 months since last year's Docker con for example, the number of registered developers grew 80% to over 8 million. These developers created many new images increasing the total by 56% to almost 11 million. And the images in all these repositories were pulled by more than 13 million monthly active IP addresses totaling 13 billion pulls a month. Now while the growth is exciting by Docker, we're even more excited about the stories we hear from you and your development teams about how you're using Docker and its impact on your businesses. For example, cancer researchers and their bioinformatics development team at the Washington university school of medicine needed a way to quickly analyze their clinical trial results and then share the models, the data and the analysis with other researchers they use Docker because it gives them the ease of use choice of pipeline tools and speed of sharing so critical to their research. And most importantly to the lives of their patients stay tuned for another powerful customer story later in the keynote from Matt fall, VP of engineering at Oracle insights. >>So with this last year behind us, what's next for Docker, but challenge you this last year of force changes in how development teams work, but we felt for years to come. And what we've learned in our discussions with you will have long lasting impact on our product roadmap. One of the biggest takeaways from those discussions that you and your development team want to be quicker to adapt, to changes in your environment so you can ship faster. So what is DACA doing to help with this first trusted content to own the teams that can focus their energies on what is unique to their businesses and spend as little time as possible on undifferentiated work are able to adapt more quickly and ship faster in order to do so. They need to be able to trust other components that make up their app together with our partners. >>Docker is doubling down and providing development teams with trusted content and the tools they need to use it in their applications. Second, remote collaboration on a development team, asking a coworker to take a look at your code used to be as easy as swiveling their chair around, but given what's happened in the last year, that's no longer the case. So as you even been hinted in the demo at the beginning, you'll see us deliver more capabilities for remote collaboration within a development team. And we're enabling development team to quickly adapt to any team configuration all on prem hybrid, all work from home, helping them remain productive and focused on shipping third ecosystem integrations, those development teams that can quickly take advantage of innovations throughout the ecosystem. Instead of getting locked into a single monolithic pipeline, there'll be the ones able to deliver amps, which impact their businesses faster. >>So together with our ecosystem partners, we are investing in more integrations with best of breed tools, right? Integrated automated app pipelines. Furthermore, we'll be writing more public API APIs and SDKs to enable ecosystem partners and development teams to roll their own integrations. We'll be sharing more details about remote collaboration and ecosystem integrations. Later in the keynote, I'd like to take a moment to share with Docker and our partners are doing for trusted content, providing development teams, access to content. They can trust, allows them to focus their coding efforts on what's unique and differentiated to that end Docker and our partners are bringing more and more trusted content to Docker hub Docker official images are 160 images of popular upstream open source projects that serve as foundational building blocks for any application. These include operating systems, programming, languages, databases, and more. Furthermore, these are updated patch scan and certified frequently. So I said, no image is older than 30 days. >>Docker verified publisher images are published by more than 100 commercialized feeds. The image Rebos are explicitly designated verify. So the developers searching for components for their app know that the ISV is actively maintaining the image. Docker sponsored open source projects announced late last year features images for more than 200 open source communities. Docker sponsors these communities through providing free storage and networking resources and offering their community members unrestricted access repos for businesses allow businesses to update and share their apps privately within their organizations using role-based access control and user authentication. No, and finally, public repos for communities enable community projects to be freely shared with anonymous and authenticated users alike. >>And for all these different types of content, we provide services for both development teams and ISP, for example, vulnerability scanning and digital signing for enhanced security search and filtering for discoverability packaging and updating services and analytics about how these products are being used. All this trusted content, we make available to develop teams for them directly to discover poll and integrate into their applications. Our goal is to meet development teams where they live. So for those organizations that prefer to manage their internal distribution of trusted content, we've collaborated with leading container registry partners. We announced our partnership with J frog late last year. And today we're very pleased to announce our partnerships with Amazon and Miranda's for providing an integrated seamless experience for joint for our joint customers. Lastly, the container images themselves and this end to end flow are built on open industry standards, which provided all the teams with flexibility and choice trusted content enables development teams to rapidly build. >>As I let them focus on their unique differentiated features and use trusted building blocks for the rest. We'll be talking more about trusted content as well as remote collaboration and ecosystem integrations later in the keynote. Now ecosystem partners are not only integral to the Docker experience for development teams. They're also integral to a great DockerCon experience, but please join me in thanking our Dr. Kent on sponsors and checking out their talks throughout the day. I also want to thank some others first up Docker team. Like all of you this last year has been extremely challenging for us, but the Docker team rose to the challenge and worked together to continue shipping great product, the Docker community of captains, community leaders, and contributors with your welcoming newcomers, enthusiasm for Docker and open exchanges of best practices and ideas talker, wouldn't be Docker without you. And finally, our development team customers. >>You trust us to help you build apps. Your businesses rely on. We don't take that trust for granted. Thank you. In closing, we often hear about the tenant's developer capable of great individual feeds that can transform project. But I wonder if we, as an industry have perhaps gotten this wrong by putting so much emphasis on weight, on the individual as discussed at the beginning, great accomplishments like innovative responses to COVID-19 like landing on Mars are more often the results of individuals collaborating together as a team, which is why our mission here at Docker is delivered tools and content developers love to help their team succeed and become 10 X teams. Thanks again for joining us, we look forward to having a great DockerCon with you today, as well as a great year ahead of us. Thanks and be well. >>Hi, I'm Dana Lawson, VP of engineering here at get hub. And my job is to enable this rich interconnected community of builders and makers to build even more and hopefully have a great time doing it in order to enable the best platform for developers, which I know is something we are all passionate about. We need to partner across the ecosystem to ensure that developers can have a great experience across get hub and all the tools that they want to use. No matter what they are. My team works to build the tools and relationships to make that possible. I am so excited to join Scott on this virtual stage to talk about increasing developer velocity. So let's dive in now, I know this may be hard for some of you to believe, but as a former CIS admin, some 21 years ago, working on sense spark workstations, we've come such a long way for random scripts and desperate systems that we've stitched together to this whole inclusive developer workflow experience being a CIS admin. >>Then you were just one piece of the siloed experience, but I didn't want to just push code to production. So I created scripts that did it for me. I taught myself how to code. I was the model lazy CIS admin that got dangerous and having pushed a little too far. I realized that working in production and building features is really a team sport that we had the opportunity, all of us to be customer obsessed today. As developers, we can go beyond the traditional dev ops mindset. We can really focus on adding value to the customer experience by ensuring that we have work that contributes to increasing uptime via and SLS all while being agile and productive. We get there. When we move from a pass the Baton system to now having an interconnected developer workflow that increases velocity in every part of the cycle, we get to work better and smarter. >>And honestly, in a way that is so much more enjoyable because we automate away all the mundane and manual and boring tasks. So we get to focus on what really matters shipping, the things that humans get to use and love. Docker has been a big part of enabling this transformation. 10, 20 years ago, we had Tomcat containers, which are not Docker containers. And for y'all hearing this the first time go Google it. But that was the way we built our applications. We had to segment them on the server and give them resources. Today. We have Docker containers, these little mini Oasys and Docker images. You can do it multiple times in an orchestrated manner with the power of actions enabled and Docker. It's just so incredible what you can do. And by the way, I'm showing you actions in Docker, which I hope you use because both are great and free for open source. >>But the key takeaway is really the workflow and the automation, which you certainly can do with other tools. Okay, I'm going to show you just how easy this is, because believe me, if this is something I can learn and do anybody out there can, and in this demo, I'll show you about the basic components needed to create and use a package, Docker container actions. And like I said, you won't believe how awesome the combination of Docker and actions is because you can enable your workflow to do no matter what you're trying to do in this super baby example. We're so small. You could take like 10 seconds. Like I am here creating an action due to a simple task, like pushing a message to your logs. And the cool thing is you can use it on any the bit on this one. Like I said, we're going to use push. >>You can do, uh, even to order a pizza every time you roll into production, if you wanted, but at get hub, that'd be a lot of pizzas. And the funny thing is somebody out there is actually tried this and written that action. If you haven't used Docker and actions together, check out the docs on either get hub or Docker to get you started. And a huge shout out to all those doc writers out there. I built this demo today using those instructions. And if I can do it, I know you can too, but enough yapping let's get started to save some time. And since a lot of us are Docker and get hub nerds, I've already created a repo with a Docker file. So we're going to skip that step. Next. I'm going to create an action's Yammel file. And if you don't Yammer, you know, actions, the metadata defines my important log stuff to capture and the input and my time out per parameter to pass and puts to the Docker container, get up a build image from your Docker file and run the commands in a new container. >>Using the Sigma image. The cool thing is, is you can use any Docker image in any language for your actions. It doesn't matter if it's go or whatever in today's I'm going to use a shell script and an input variable to print my important log stuff to file. And like I said, you know me, I love me some. So let's see this action in a workflow. When an action is in a private repo, like the one I demonstrating today, the action can only be used in workflows in the same repository, but public actions can be used by workflows in any repository. So unfortunately you won't get access to the super awesome action, but don't worry in the Guild marketplace, there are over 8,000 actions available, especially the most important one, that pizza action. So go try it out. Now you can do this in a couple of ways, whether you're doing it in your preferred ID or for today's demo, I'm just going to use the gooey. I'm going to navigate to my actions tab as I've done here. And I'm going to in my workflow, select new work, hello, probably load some workflows to Claire to get you started, but I'm using the one I've copied. Like I said, the lazy developer I am in. I'm going to replace it with my action. >>That's it. So now we're going to go and we're going to start our commitment new file. Now, if we go over to our actions tab, we can see the workflow in progress in my repository. I just click the actions tab. And because they wrote the actions on push, we can watch the visualization under jobs and click the job to see the important stuff we're logging in the input stamp in the printed log. And we'll just wait for this to run. Hello, Mona and boom. Just like that. It runs automatically within our action. We told it to go run as soon as the files updated because we're doing it on push merge. That's right. Folks in just a few minutes, I built an action that writes an entry to a log file every time I push. So I don't have to do it manually. In essence, with automation, you can be kind to your future self and save time and effort to focus on what really matters. >>Imagine what I could do with even a little more time, probably order all y'all pieces. That is the power of the interconnected workflow. And it's amazing. And I hope you all go try it out, but why do we care about all of that? Just like in the demo, I took a manual task with both tape, which both takes time and it's easy to forget and automated it. So I don't have to think about it. And it's executed every time consistently. That means less time for me to worry about my human errors and mistakes, and more time to focus on actually building the cool stuff that people want. Obviously, automation, developer productivity, but what is even more important to me is the developer happiness tools like BS, code actions, Docker, Heroku, and many others reduce manual work, which allows us to focus on building things that are awesome. >>And to get into that wonderful state that we call flow. According to research by UC Irvine in Humboldt university in Germany, it takes an average of 23 minutes to enter optimal creative state. What we call the flow or to reenter it after distraction like your dog on your office store. So staying in flow is so critical to developer productivity and as a developer, it just feels good to be cranking away at something with deep focus. I certainly know that I love that feeling intuitive collaboration and automation features we built in to get hub help developer, Sam flow, allowing you and your team to do so much more, to bring the benefits of automation into perspective in our annual October's report by Dr. Nicole, Forsgren. One of my buddies here at get hub, took a look at the developer productivity in the stork year. You know what we found? >>We found that public GitHub repositories that use the Automational pull requests, merge those pull requests. 1.2 times faster. And the number of pooled merged pull requests increased by 1.3 times, that is 34% more poor requests merged. And other words, automation can con can dramatically increase, but the speed and quantity of work completed in any role, just like an open source development, you'll work more efficiently with greater impact when you invest the bulk of your time in the work that adds the most value and eliminate or outsource the rest because you don't need to do it, make the machines by elaborate by leveraging automation in their workflows teams, minimize manual work and reclaim that time for innovation and maintain that state of flow with development and collaboration. More importantly, their work is more enjoyable because they're not wasting the time doing the things that the machines or robots can do for them. >>And I remember what I said at the beginning. Many of us want to be efficient, heck even lazy. So why would I spend my time doing something I can automate? Now you can read more about this research behind the art behind this at October set, get hub.com, which also includes a lot of other cool info about the open source ecosystem and how it's evolving. Speaking of the open source ecosystem we at get hub are so honored to be the home of more than 65 million developers who build software together for everywhere across the globe. Today, we're seeing software development taking shape as the world's largest team sport, where development teams collaborate, build and ship products. It's no longer a solo effort like it was for me. You don't have to take my word for it. Check out this globe. This globe shows real data. Every speck of light you see here represents a contribution to an open source project, somewhere on earth. >>These arts reach across continents, cultures, and other divides. It's distributed collaboration at its finest. 20 years ago, we had no concept of dev ops, SecOps and lots, or the new ops that are going to be happening. But today's development and ops teams are connected like ever before. This is only going to continue to evolve at a rapid pace, especially as we continue to empower the next hundred million developers, automation helps us focus on what's important and to greatly accelerate innovation. Just this past year, we saw some of the most groundbreaking technological advancements and achievements I'll say ever, including critical COVID-19 vaccine trials, as well as the first power flight on Mars. This past month, these breakthroughs were only possible because of the interconnected collaborative open source communities on get hub and the amazing tools and workflows that empower us all to create and innovate. Let's continue building, integrating, and automating. So we collectively can give developers the experience. They deserve all of the automation and beautiful eye UIs that we can muster so they can continue to build the things that truly do change the world. Thank you again for having me today, Dr. Khan, it has been a pleasure to be here with all you nerds. >>Hello. I'm Justin. Komack lovely to see you here. Talking to developers, their world is getting much more complex. Developers are being asked to do everything security ops on goal data analysis, all being put on the rockers. Software's eating the world. Of course, and this all make sense in that view, but they need help. One team. I told you it's shifted all our.net apps to run on Linux from windows, but their developers found the complexity of Docker files based on the Linux shell scripts really difficult has helped make these things easier for your teams. Your ones collaborate more in a virtual world, but you've asked us to make this simpler and more lightweight. You, the developers have asked for a paved road experience. You want things to just work with a simple options to be there, but it's not just the paved road. You also want to be able to go off-road and do interesting and different things. >>Use different components, experiments, innovate as well. We'll always offer you both those choices at different times. Different developers want different things. It may shift for ones the other paved road or off road. Sometimes you want reliability, dependability in the zone for day to day work, but sometimes you have to do something new, incorporate new things in your pipeline, build applications for new places. Then you knew those off-road abilities too. So you can really get under the hood and go and build something weird and wonderful and amazing. That gives you new options. Talk as an independent choice. We don't own the roads. We're not pushing you into any technology choices because we own them. We're really supporting and driving open standards, such as ISEI working opensource with the CNCF. We want to help you get your applications from your laptops, the clouds, and beyond, even into space. >>Let's talk about the key focus areas, that frame, what DACA is doing going forward. These are simplicity, sharing, flexibility, trusted content and care supply chain compared to building where the underlying kernel primitives like namespaces and Seagraves the original Docker CLI was just amazing Docker engine. It's a magical experience for everyone. It really brought those innovations and put them in a world where anyone would use that, but that's not enough. We need to continue to innovate. And it was trying to get more done faster all the time. And there's a lot more we can do. We're here to take complexity away from deeply complicated underlying things and give developers tools that are just amazing and magical. One of the area we haven't done enough and make things magical enough that we're really planning around now is that, you know, Docker images, uh, they're the key parts of your application, but you know, how do I do something with an image? How do I, where do I attach volumes with this image? What's the API. Whereas the SDK for this image, how do I find an example or docs in an API driven world? Every bit of software should have an API and an API description. And our vision is that every container should have this API description and the ability for you to understand how to use it. And it's all a seamless thing from, you know, from your code to the cloud local and remote, you can, you can use containers in this amazing and exciting way. >>One thing I really noticed in the last year is that companies that started off remote fast have constant collaboration. They have zoom calls, apron all day terminals, shattering that always working together. Other teams are really trying to learn how to do this style because they didn't start like that. We used to walk around to other people's desks or share services on the local office network. And it's very difficult to do that anymore. You want sharing to be really simple, lightweight, and informal. Let me try your container or just maybe let's collaborate on this together. Um, you know, fast collaboration on the analysts, fast iteration, fast working together, and he wants to share more. You want to share how to develop environments, not just an image. And we all work by seeing something someone else in our team is doing saying, how can I do that too? I can, I want to make that sharing really, really easy. Ben's going to talk about this more in the interest of one minute. >>We know how you're excited by apple. Silicon and gravis are not excited because there's a new architecture, but excited because it's faster, cooler, cheaper, better, and offers new possibilities. The M one support was the most asked for thing on our public roadmap, EFA, and we listened and share that we see really exciting possibilities, usership arm applications, all the way from desktop to production. We know that you all use different clouds and different bases have deployed to, um, you know, we work with AWS and Azure and Google and more, um, and we want to help you ship on prime as well. And we know that you use huge number of languages and the containers help build applications that use different languages for different parts of the application or for different applications, right? You can choose the best tool. You have JavaScript hat or everywhere go. And re-ask Python for data and ML, perhaps getting excited about WebAssembly after hearing about a cube con, you know, there's all sorts of things. >>So we need to make that as easier. We've been running the whole month of Python on the blog, and we're doing a month of JavaScript because we had one specific support about how do I best put this language into production of that language into production. That detail is important for you. GPS have been difficult to use. We've added GPS suppose in desktop for windows, but we know there's a lot more to do to make the, how multi architecture, multi hardware, multi accelerator world work better and also securely. Um, so there's a lot more work to do to support you in all these things you want to do. >>How do we start building a tenor has applications, but it turns out we're using existing images as components. I couldn't assist survey earlier this year, almost half of container image usage was public images rather than private images. And this is growing rapidly. Almost all software has open source components and maybe 85% of the average application is open source code. And what you're doing is taking whole container images as modules in your application. And this was always the model with Docker compose. And it's a model that you're already et cetera, writing you trust Docker, official images. We know that they might go to 25% of poles on Docker hub and Docker hub provides you the widest choice and the best support that trusted content. We're talking to people about how to make this more helpful. We know, for example, that winter 69 four is just showing us as support, but the image doesn't yet tell you that we're working with canonical to improve messaging from specific images about left lifecycle and support. >>We know that you need more images, regularly updated free of vulnerabilities, easy to use and discover, and Donnie and Marie neuro, going to talk about that more this last year, the solar winds attack has been in the, in the news. A lot, the software you're using and trusting could be compromised and might be all over your organization. We need to reduce the risk of using vital open-source components. We're seeing more software supply chain attacks being targeted as the supply chain, because it's often an easier place to attack and production software. We need to be able to use this external code safely. We need to, everyone needs to start from trusted sources like photography images. They need to scan for known vulnerabilities using Docker scan that we built in partnership with sneak and lost DockerCon last year, we need just keep updating base images and dependencies, and we'll, we're going to help you have the control and understanding about your images that you need to do this. >>And there's more, we're also working on the nursery V2 project in the CNCF to revamp container signings, or you can tell way or software comes from we're working on tooling to make updates easier, and to help you understand and manage all the principals carrier you're using security is a growing concern for all of us. It's really important. And we're going to help you work with security. We can't achieve all our dreams, whether that's space travel or amazing developer products ever see without deep partnerships with our community to cloud is RA and the cloud providers aware most of you ship your occasion production and simple routes that take your work and deploy it easily. Reliably and securely are really important. Just get into production simply and easily and securely. And we've done a bunch of work on that. And, um, but we know there's more to do. >>The CNCF on the open source cloud native community are an amazing ecosystem of creators and lovely people creating an amazing strong community and supporting a huge amount of innovation has its roots in the container ecosystem and his dreams beyond that much of the innovation is focused around operate experience so far, but developer experience is really a growing concern in that community as well. And we're really excited to work on that. We also uses appraiser tool. Then we know you do, and we know that you want it to be easier to use in your environment. We just shifted Docker hub to work on, um, Kubernetes fully. And, um, we're also using many of the other projects are Argo from atheists. We're spending a lot of time working with Microsoft, Amazon right now on getting natural UV to ready to ship in the next few. That's a really detailed piece of collaboration we've been working on for a long term. Long time is really important for our community as the scarcity of the container containers and, um, getting content for you, working together makes us stronger. Our community is made up of all of you have. Um, it's always amazing to be reminded of that as a huge open source community that we already proud to work with. It's an amazing amount of innovation that you're all creating and where perhaps it, what with you and share with you as well. Thank you very much. And thank you for being here. >>Really excited to talk to you today and share more about what Docker is doing to help make you faster, make your team faster and turn your application delivery into something that makes you a 10 X team. What we're hearing from you, the developers using Docker everyday fits across three common themes that we hear consistently over and over. We hear that your time is super important. It's critical, and you want to move faster. You want your tools to get out of your way, and instead to enable you to accelerate and focus on the things you want to be doing. And part of that is that finding great content, great application components that you can incorporate into your apps to move faster is really hard. It's hard to discover. It's hard to find high quality content that you can trust that, you know, passes your test and your configuration needs. >>And it's hard to create good content as well. And you're looking for more safety, more guardrails to help guide you along that way so that you can focus on creating value for your company. Secondly, you're telling us that it's a really far to collaborate effectively with your team and you want to do more, to work more effectively together to help your tools become more and more seamless to help you stay in sync, both with yourself across all of your development environments, as well as with your teammates so that you can more effectively collaborate together. Review each other's work, maintain things and keep them in sync. And finally, you want your applications to run consistently in every single environment, whether that's your local development environment, a cloud-based development environment, your CGI pipeline, or the cloud for production, and you want that micro service to provide that consistent experience everywhere you go so that you have similar tools, similar environments, and you don't need to worry about things getting in your way, but instead things make it easy for you to focus on what you wanna do and what Docker is doing to help solve all of these problems for you and your colleagues is creating a collaborative app dev platform. >>And this collaborative application development platform consists of multiple different pieces. I'm not going to walk through all of them today, but the overall view is that we're providing all the tooling you need from the development environment, to the container images, to the collaboration services, to the pipelines and integrations that enable you to focus on making your applications amazing and changing the world. If we start zooming on a one of those aspects, collaboration we hear from developers regularly is that they're challenged in synchronizing their own setups across environments. They want to be able to duplicate the setup of their teammates. Look, then they can easily get up and running with the same applications, the same tooling, the same version of the same libraries, the same frameworks. And they want to know if their applications are good before they're ready to share them in an official space. >>They want to collaborate on things before they're done, rather than feeling like they have to officially published something before they can effectively share it with others to work on it, to solve this. We're thrilled today to announce Docker, dev environments, Docker, dev environments, transform how your team collaborates. They make creating, sharing standardized development environments. As simple as a Docker poll, they make it easy to review your colleagues work without affecting your own work. And they increase the reproducibility of your own work and decreased production issues in doing so because you've got consistent environments all the way through. Now, I'm going to pass it off to our principal product manager, Ben Gotch to walk you through more detail on Docker dev environments. >>Hi, I'm Ben. I work as a principal program manager at DACA. One of the areas that doc has been looking at to see what's hard today for developers is sharing changes that you make from the inner loop where the inner loop is a better development, where you write code, test it, build it, run it, and ultimately get feedback on those changes before you merge them and try and actually ship them out to production. Most amount of us build this flow and get there still leaves a lot of challenges. People need to jump between branches to look at each other's work. Independence. Dependencies can be different when you're doing that and doing this in this new hybrid wall of work. Isn't any easier either the ability to just save someone, Hey, come and check this out. It's become much harder. People can't come and sit down at your desk or take your laptop away for 10 minutes to just grab and look at what you're doing. >>A lot of the reason that development is hard when you're remote, is that looking at changes and what's going on requires more than just code requires all the dependencies and everything you've got set up and that complete context of your development environment, to understand what you're doing and solving this in a remote first world is hard. We wanted to look at how we could make this better. Let's do that in a way that let you keep working the way you do today. Didn't want you to have to use a browser. We didn't want you to have to use a new idea. And we wanted to do this in a way that was application centric. We wanted to let you work with all the rest of the application already using C for all the services and all those dependencies you need as part of that. And with that, we're excited to talk more about docket developer environments, dev environments are new part of the Docker experience that makes it easier you to get started with your whole inner leap, working inside a container, then able to share and collaborate more than just the code. >>We want it to enable you to share your whole modern development environment, your whole setup from DACA, with your team on any operating system, we'll be launching a limited beta of dev environments in the coming month. And a GA dev environments will be ID agnostic and supporting composts. This means you'll be able to use an extend your existing composed files to create your own development environment in whatever idea, working in dev environments designed to be local. First, they work with Docker desktop and say your existing ID, and let you share that whole inner loop, that whole development context, all of your teammates in just one collect. This means if you want to get feedback on the working progress change or the PR it's as simple as opening another idea instance, and looking at what your team is working on because we're using compose. You can just extend your existing oppose file when you're already working with, to actually create this whole application and have it all working in the context of the rest of the services. >>So it's actually the whole environment you're working with module one service that doesn't really understand what it's doing alone. And with that, let's jump into a quick demo. So you can see here, two dev environments up and running. First one here is the same container dev environment. So if I want to go into that, let's see what's going on in the various code button here. If that one open, I can get straight into my application to start making changes inside that dev container. And I've got all my dependencies in here, so I can just run that straight in that second application I have here is one that's opened up in compose, and I can see that I've also got my backend, my front end and my database. So I've got all my services running here. So if I want, I can open one or more of these in a dev environment, meaning that that container has the context that dev environment has the context of the whole application. >>So I can get back into and connect to all the other services that I need to test this application properly, all of them, one unit. And then when I've made my changes and I'm ready to share, I can hit my share button type in the refund them on to share that too. And then give that image to someone to get going, pick that up and just start working with that code and all my dependencies, simple as putting an image, looking ahead, we're going to be expanding development environments, more of your dependencies for the whole developer worst space. We want to look at backing up and letting you share your volumes to make data science and database setups more repeatable and going. I'm still all of this under a single workspace for your team containing images, your dev environments, your volumes, and more we've really want to allow you to create a fully portable Linux development environment. >>So everyone you're working with on any operating system, as I said, our MVP we're coming next month. And that was for vs code using their dev container primitive and more support for other ideas. We'll follow to find out more about what's happening and what's coming up next in the future of this. And to actually get a bit of a deeper dive in the experience. Can we check out the talk I'm doing with Georgie and girl later on today? Thank you, Ben, amazing story about how Docker is helping to make developer teams more collaborative. Now I'd like to talk more about applications while the dev environment is like the workbench around what you're building. The application itself has all the different components, libraries, and frameworks, and other code that make up the application itself. And we hear developers saying all the time things like, how do they know if their images are good? >>How do they know if they're secure? How do they know if they're minimal? How do they make great images and great Docker files and how do they keep their images secure? And up-to-date on every one of those ties into how do I create more trust? How do I know that I'm building high quality applications to enable you to do this even more effectively than today? We are pleased to announce the DACA verified polisher program. This broadens trusted content by extending beyond Docker official images, to give you more and more trusted building blocks that you can incorporate into your applications. It gives you confidence that you're getting what you expect because Docker verifies every single one of these publishers to make sure they are who they say they are. This improves our secure supply chain story. And finally it simplifies your discovery of the best building blocks by making it easy for you to find things that you know, you can trust so that you can incorporate them into your applications and move on and on the right. You can see some examples of the publishers that are involved in Docker, official images and our Docker verified publisher program. Now I'm pleased to introduce you to marina. Kubicki our senior product manager who will walk you through more about what we're doing to create a better experience for you around trust. >>Thank you, Dani, >>Mario Andretti, who is a famous Italian sports car driver. One said that if everything feels under control, you're just not driving. You're not driving fast enough. Maya Andretti is not a software developer and a software developers. We know that no matter how fast we need to go in order to drive the innovation that we're working on, we can never allow our applications to spin out of control and a Docker. As we continue talking to our, to the developers, what we're realizing is that in order to reach that speed, the developers are the, the, the development community is looking for the building blocks and the tools that will, they will enable them to drive at the speed that they need to go and have the trust in those building blocks. And in those tools that they will be able to maintain control over their applications. So as we think about some of the things that we can do to, to address those concerns, uh, we're realizing that we can pursue them in a number of different venues, including creating reliable content, including creating partnerships that expands the options for the reliable content. >>Um, in order to, in a we're looking at creating integrations, no link security tools, talk about the reliable content. The first thing that comes to mind are the Docker official images, which is a program that we launched several years ago. And this is a set of curated, actively maintained, open source images that, uh, include, uh, operating systems and databases and programming languages. And it would become immensely popular for, for, for creating the base layers of, of the images of, of the different images, images, and applications. And would we realizing that, uh, many developers are, instead of creating something from scratch, basically start with one of the official images for their basis, and then build on top of that. And this program has become so popular that it now makes up a quarter of all of the, uh, Docker poles, which essentially ends up being several billion pulse every single month. >>As we look beyond what we can do for the open source. Uh, we're very ability on the open source, uh, spectrum. We are very excited to announce that we're launching the Docker verified publishers program, which is continuing providing the trust around the content, but now working with, uh, some of the industry leaders, uh, in multiple, in multiple verticals across the entire technology technical spec, it costs entire, uh, high tech in order to provide you with more options of the images that you can use for building your applications. And it still comes back to trust that when you are searching for content in Docker hub, and you see the verified publisher badge, you know, that this is, this is the content that, that is part of the, that comes from one of our partners. And you're not running the risk of pulling the malicious image from an employee master source. >>As we look beyond what we can do for, for providing the reliable content, we're also looking at some of the tools and the infrastructure that we can do, uh, to create a security around the content that you're creating. So last year at the last ad, the last year's DockerCon, we announced partnership with sneak. And later on last year, we launched our DACA, desktop and Docker hub vulnerability scans that allow you the options of writing scans in them along multiple points in your dev cycle. And in addition to providing you with information on the vulnerability on, on the vulnerabilities, in, in your code, uh, it also provides you with a guidance on how to re remediate those vulnerabilities. But as we look beyond the vulnerability scans, we're also looking at some of the other things that we can do, you know, to, to, to, uh, further ensure that the integrity and the security around your images, your images, and with that, uh, later on this year, we're looking to, uh, launch the scope, personal access tokens, and instead of talking about them, I will simply show you what they look like. >>So if you can see here, this is my page in Docker hub, where I've created a four, uh, tokens, uh, read-write delete, read, write, read only in public read in public creeper read only. So, uh, earlier today I went in and I, I logged in, uh, with my read only token. And when you see, when I'm going to pull an image, it's going to allow me to pull an image, not a problem success. And then when I do the next step, I'm going to ask to push an image into the same repo. Uh, would you see is that it's going to give me an error message saying that they access is denied, uh, because there is an additional authentication required. So these are the things that we're looking to add to our roadmap. As we continue thinking about the things that we can do to provide, um, to provide additional building blocks, content, building blocks, uh, and, and, and tools to build the trust so that our DACA developer and skinned code faster than Mario Andretti could ever imagine. Uh, thank you to >>Thank you, marina. It's amazing what you can do to improve the trusted content so that you can accelerate your development more and move more quickly, move more collaboratively and build upon the great work of others. Finally, we hear over and over as that developers are working on their applications that they're looking for, environments that are consistent, that are the same as production, and that they want their applications to really run anywhere, any environment, any architecture, any cloud one great example is the recent announcement of apple Silicon. We heard from developers on uproar that they needed Docker to be available for that architecture before they could add those to it and be successful. And we listened. And based on that, we are pleased to share with you Docker, desktop on apple Silicon. This enables you to run your apps consistently anywhere, whether that's developing on your team's latest dev hardware, deploying an ARM-based cloud environments and having a consistent architecture across your development and production or using multi-year architecture support, which enables your whole team to collaborate on its application, using private repositories on Docker hub, and thrilled to introduce you to Hughie cower, senior director for product management, who will walk you through more of what we're doing to create a great developer experience. >>Senior director of product management at Docker. And I'd like to jump straight into a demo. This is the Mac mini with the apple Silicon processor. And I want to show you how you can now do an end-to-end arm workflow from my M one Mac mini to raspberry PI. As you can see, we have vs code and Docker desktop installed on a, my, the Mac mini. I have a small example here, and I have a raspberry PI three with an led strip, and I want to turn those LEDs into a moving rainbow. This Dockerfile here, builds the application. We build the image with the Docker, build X command to make the image compatible for all raspberry pies with the arm. 64. Part of this build is built with the native power of the M one chip. I also add the push option to easily share the image with my team so they can give it a try to now Dr. >>Creates the local image with the application and uploads it to Docker hub after we've built and pushed the image. We can go to Docker hub and see the new image on Docker hub. You can also explore a variety of images that are compatible with arm processors. Now let's go to the raspberry PI. I have Docker already installed and it's running Ubuntu 64 bit with the Docker run command. I can run the application and let's see what will happen from there. You can see Docker is downloading the image automatically from Docker hub and when it's running, if it's works right, there are some nice colors. And with that, if we have an end-to-end workflow for arm, where continuing to invest into providing you a great developer experience, that's easy to install. Easy to get started with. As you saw in the demo, if you're interested in the new Mac, mini are interested in developing for our platforms in general, we've got you covered with the same experience you've come to expect from Docker with over 95,000 arm images on hub, including many Docker official images. >>We think you'll find what you're looking for. Thank you again to the community that helped us to test the tech previews. We're so delighted to hear when folks say that the new Docker desktop for apple Silicon, it just works for them, but that's not all we've been working on. As Dani mentioned, consistency of developer experience across environments is so important. We're introducing composed V2 that makes compose a first-class citizen in the Docker CLI you no longer need to install a separate composed biter in order to use composed, deploying to production is simpler than ever with the new compose integration that enables you to deploy directly to Amazon ECS or Azure ACI with the same methods you use to run your application locally. If you're interested in running slightly different services, when you're debugging versus testing or, um, just general development, you can manage that all in one place with the new composed service to hear more about what's new and Docker desktop, please join me in the three 15 breakout session this afternoon. >>And now I'd love to tell you a bit more about bill decks and convince you to try it. If you haven't already it's our next gen build command, and it's no longer experimental as shown in the demo with built X, you'll be able to do multi architecture builds, share those builds with your team and the community on Docker hub. With build X, you can speed up your build processes with remote caches or build all the targets in your composed file in parallel with build X bake. And there's so much more if you're using Docker, desktop or Docker, CE you can use build X checkout tonus is talk this afternoon at three 45 to learn more about build X. And with that, I hope everyone has a great Dr. Khan and back over to you, Donnie. >>Thank you UA. It's amazing to hear about what we're doing to create a better developer experience and make sure that Docker works everywhere you need to work. Finally, I'd like to wrap up by showing you everything that we've announced today and everything that we've done recently to make your lives better and give you more and more for the single price of your Docker subscription. We've announced the Docker verified publisher program we've announced scoped personal access tokens to make it easier for you to have a secure CCI pipeline. We've announced Docker dev environments to improve your collaboration with your team. Uh, we shared with you Docker, desktop and apple Silicon, to make sure that, you know, Docker runs everywhere. You need it to run. And we've announced Docker compose version two, finally making it a first-class citizen amongst all the other great Docker tools. And we've done so much more recently as well from audit logs to advanced image management, to compose service profiles, to improve where you can run Docker more easily. >>Finally, as we look forward, where we're headed in the upcoming year is continuing to invest in these themes of helping you build, share, and run modern apps more effectively. We're going to be doing more to help you create a secure supply chain with which only grows more and more important as time goes on. We're going to be optimizing your update experience to make sure that you can easily understand the current state of your application, all its components and keep them all current without worrying about breaking everything as you're doing. So we're going to make it easier for you to synchronize your work. Using cloud sync features. We're going to improve collaboration through dev environments and beyond, and we're going to do make it easy for you to run your microservice in your environments without worrying about things like architecture or differences between those environments. Thank you so much. I'm thrilled about what we're able to do to help make your lives better. And now you're going to be hearing from one of our customers about what they're doing to launch their business with Docker >>I'm Matt Falk, I'm the head of engineering and orbital insight. And today I want to talk to you a little bit about data from space. So who am I like many of you, I'm a software developer and a software developer about seven companies so far, and now I'm a head of engineering. So I spend most of my time doing meetings, but occasionally I'll still spend time doing design discussions, doing code reviews. And in my free time, I still like to dabble on things like project oiler. So who's Oberlin site. What do we do? Portal insight is a large data supplier and analytics provider where we take data geospatial data anywhere on the planet, any overhead sensor, and translate that into insights for the end customer. So specifically we have a suite of high performance, artificial intelligence and machine learning analytics that run on this geospatial data. >>And we build them to specifically determine natural and human service level activity anywhere on the planet. What that really means is we take any type of data associated with a latitude and longitude and we identify patterns so that we can, so we can detect anomalies. And that's everything that we do is all about identifying those patterns to detect anomalies. So more specifically, what type of problems do we solve? So supply chain intelligence, this is one of the use cases that we we'd like to talk about a lot. It's one of our main primary verticals that we go after right now. And as Scott mentioned earlier, this had a huge impact last year when COVID hit. So specifically supply chain intelligence is all about identifying movement patterns to and from operating facilities to identify changes in those supply chains. How do we do this? So for us, we can do things where we track the movement of trucks. >>So identifying trucks, moving from one location to another in aggregate, same thing we can do with foot traffic. We can do the same thing for looking at aggregate groups of people moving from one location to another and analyzing their patterns of life. We can look at two different locations to determine how people are moving from one location to another, or going back and forth. All of this is extremely valuable for detecting how a supply chain operates and then identifying the changes to that supply chain. As I said last year with COVID, everything changed in particular supply chains changed incredibly, and it was hugely important for customers to know where their goods or their products are coming from and where they were going, where there were disruptions in their supply chain and how that's affecting their overall supply and demand. So to use our platform, our suite of tools, you can start to gain a much better picture of where your suppliers or your distributors are going from coming from or going to. >>So what's our team look like? So my team is currently about 50 engineers. Um, we're spread into four different teams and the teams are structured like this. So the first team that we have is infrastructure engineering and this team largely deals with deploying our Dockers using Kubernetes. So this team is all about taking Dockers, built by other teams, sometimes building the Dockers themselves and putting them into our production system, our platform engineering team, they produce these microservices. So they produce microservice, Docker images. They develop and test with them locally. Their entire environments are dockerized. They produce these doctors, hand them over to him for infrastructure engineering to be deployed. Similarly, our product engineering team does the same thing. They develop and test with Dr. Locally. They also produce a suite of Docker images that the infrastructure team can then deploy. And lastly, we have our R and D team, and this team specifically produces machine learning algorithms using Nvidia Docker collectively, we've actually built 381 Docker repositories and 14 million. >>We've had 14 million Docker pools over the lifetime of the company, just a few stats about us. Um, but what I'm really getting to here is you can see actually doctors becoming almost a form of communication between these teams. So one of the paradigms in software engineering that you're probably familiar with encapsulation, it's really helpful for a lot of software engineering problems to break the problem down, isolate the different pieces of it and start building interfaces between the code. This allows you to scale different pieces of the platform or different pieces of your code in different ways that allows you to scale up certain pieces and keep others at a smaller level so that you can meet customer demands. And for us, one of the things that we can largely do now is use Dockers as that interface. So instead of having an entire platform where all teams are talking to each other, and everything's kind of, mishmashed in a monolithic application, we can now say this team is only able to talk to this team by passing over a particular Docker image that defines the interface of what needs to be built before it passes to the team and really allows us to scalp our development and be much more efficient. >>Also, I'd like to say we are hiring. Um, so we have a number of open roles. We have about 30 open roles in our engineering team that we're looking to fill by the end of this year. So if any of this sounds really interesting to you, please reach out after the presentation. >>So what does our platform do? Really? Our platform allows you to answer any geospatial question, and we do this at three different inputs. So first off, where do you want to look? So we did this as what we call an AOI or an area of interest larger. You can think of this as a polygon drawn on the map. So we have a curated data set of almost 4 million AOIs, which you can go and you can search and use for your analysis, but you're also free to build your own. Second question is what you want to look for. We do this with the more interesting part of our platform of our machine learning and AI capabilities. So we have a suite of algorithms that automatically allow you to identify trucks, buildings, hundreds of different types of aircraft, different types of land use, how many people are moving from one location to another different locations that people in a particular area are moving to or coming from all of these different analyses or all these different analytics are available at the click of a button, and then determine what you want to look for. >>Lastly, you determine when you want to find what you're looking for. So that's just, uh, you know, do you want to look for the next three hours? Do you want to look for the last week? Do you want to look every month for the past two, whatever the time cadence is, you decide that you hit go and out pops a time series, and that time series tells you specifically where you want it to look what you want it to look for and how many, or what percentage of the thing you're looking for appears in that area. Again, we do all of this to work towards patterns. So we use all this data to produce a time series from there. We can look at it, determine the patterns, and then specifically identify the anomalies. As I mentioned with supply chain, this is extremely valuable to identify where things change. So we can answer these questions, looking at a particular operating facility, looking at particular, what is happening with the level of activity is at that operating facility where people are coming from, where they're going to, after visiting that particular facility and identify when and where that changes here, you can just see it's a picture of our platform. It's actually showing all the devices in Manhattan, um, over a period of time. And it's more of a heat map view. So you can actually see the hotspots in the area. >>So really the, and this is the heart of the talk, but what happened in 2020? So for men, you know, like many of you, 2020 was a difficult year COVID hit. And that changed a lot of what we're doing, not from an engineering perspective, but also from an entire company perspective for us, the motivation really became to make sure that we were lowering our costs and increasing innovation simultaneously. Now those two things often compete with each other. A lot of times you want to increase innovation, that's going to increase your costs, but the challenge last year was how to do both simultaneously. So here's a few stats for you from our team. In Q1 of last year, we were spending almost $600,000 per month on compute costs prior to COVID happening. That wasn't hugely a concern for us. It was a lot of money, but it wasn't as critical as it was last year when we really needed to be much more efficient. >>Second one is flexibility for us. We were deployed on a single cloud environment while we were cloud thought ready, and that was great. We want it to be more flexible. We want it to be on more cloud environments so that we could reach more customers. And also eventually get onto class side networks, extending the base of our customers as well from a custom analytics perspective. This is where we get into our traction. So last year, over the entire year, we computed 54,000 custom analytics for different users. We wanted to make sure that this number was steadily increasing despite us trying to lower our costs. So we didn't want the lowering cost to come as the sacrifice of our user base. Lastly, of particular percentage here that I'll say definitely needs to be improved is 75% of our projects never fail. So this is where we start to get into a bit of stability of our platform. >>Now I'm not saying that 25% of our projects fail the way we measure this is if you have a particular project or computation that runs every day and any one of those runs sale account, that is a failure because from an end-user perspective, that's an issue. So this is something that we know we needed to improve on and we needed to grow and make our platform more stable. I'm going to something that we really focused on last year. So where are we now? So now coming out of the COVID valley, we are starting to soar again. Um, we had, uh, back in April of last year, we had the entire engineering team. We actually paused all development for about four weeks. You had everyone focused on reducing our compute costs in the cloud. We got it down to 200 K over the period of a few months. >>And for the next 12 months, we hit that number every month. This is huge for us. This is extremely important. Like I said, in the COVID time period where costs and operating efficiency was everything. So for us to do that, that was a huge accomplishment last year and something we'll keep going forward. One thing I would actually like to really highlight here, two is what allowed us to do that. So first off, being in the cloud, being able to migrate things like that, that was one thing. And we were able to use there's different cloud services in a more particular, in a more efficient way. We had a very detailed tracking of how we were spending things. We increased our data retention policies. We optimized our processing. However, one additional piece was switching to new technologies on, in particular, we migrated to get lab CICB. >>Um, and this is something that the costs we use Docker was extremely, extremely easy. We didn't have to go build new new code containers or repositories or change our code in order to do this. We were simply able to migrate the containers over and start using a new CIC so much. In fact, that we were able to do that migration with three engineers in just two weeks from a cloud environment and flexibility standpoint, we're now operating in two different clouds. We were able to last night, I've over the last nine months to operate in the second cloud environment. And again, this is something that Docker helped with incredibly. Um, we didn't have to go and build all new interfaces to all new, different services or all different tools in the next cloud provider. All we had to do was build a base cloud infrastructure that ups agnostic the way, all the different details of the cloud provider. >>And then our doctors just worked. We can move them to another environment up and running, and our platform was ready to go from a traction perspective. We're about a third of the way through the year. At this point, we've already exceeded the amount of customer analytics we produce last year. And this is thanks to a ton more albums, that whole suite of new analytics that we've been able to build over the past 12 months and we'll continue to build going forward. So this is really, really great outcome for us because we were able to show that our costs are staying down, but our analytics and our customer traction, honestly, from a stability perspective, we improved from 75% to 86%, not quite yet 99 or three nines or four nines, but we are getting there. Um, and this is actually thanks to really containerizing and modularizing different pieces of our platform so that we could scale up in different areas. This allowed us to increase that stability. This piece of the code works over here, toxin an interface to the rest of the system. We can scale this piece up separately from the rest of the system, and that allows us much more easily identify issues in the system, fix those and then correct the system overall. So basically this is a summary of where we were last year, where we are now and how much more successful we are now because of the issues that we went through last year and largely brought on by COVID. >>But that this is just a screenshot of the, our, our solution actually working on supply chain. So this is in particular, it is showing traceability of a distribution warehouse in salt lake city. It's right in the center of the screen here. You can see the nice kind of orange red center. That's a distribution warehouse and all the lines outside of that, all the dots outside of that are showing where people are, where trucks are moving from that location. So this is really helpful for supply chain companies because they can start to identify where their suppliers are, are coming from or where their distributors are going to. So with that, I want to say, thanks again for following along and enjoy the rest of DockerCon.

>>From around the globe. It's the cube with digital coverage of AWS reinvent 2020 sponsored by Intel, AWS, and our community partners. >>Hello, everyone. Welcome back to the cubes. Virtual coverage of AWS reinvent 2020 it's virtual this year because of the pandemic. We're not there in person and in real life, we're remote. I'm John for a year hosting the cube or the cube virtual. Um, as we continue to cover the three weeks of AWS reinvent and analyze the keynotes, we bring it in, uh, from our Cuban alumni, uh, network experts. And we have here great guest, Steve Malaney, CEO of Ava Trex, industry executive legend, former entrepreneur had done startups, um, been very, very successful with luminary and Silicon Valley, um, Palo Alto networks and the Sierra Cisco, I me, all the companies you've worked for. Um, Steve, great to see you again. >>Oh yeah. Hey awesome. Even if it's just virtual, John's great to be back in the cube. >>Okay, Steve, what's up? Am I muted? I got you. Okay. >>Gotcha. Oh, okay. I just said it's great. They're great to be back in the cube. >>I had to shut up my volume, got to love live cube TV. Um, I wanted to bring you on, because one, we've been talking with you guys and your company that you're now heading. You came off the board to take the helm of Ava tricks. You really saw the vision early on before the pandemic. We were actually, we did a hybrid event with you guys, a digital hybrid and your vision of multi-cloud and hybrid was pretty much in line with what Andy Jassy. And Amazon's now rolling out, except they're not calling it. Multi-cloud, they're just saying hybrid. But when you factor in the edge, the complexity there, you're really talking multiple environments. So I want to get your take, as you look at what Amazon has done in their announcements, they're continuing to power long. What's your analysis. What's your industry take? >>Yeah, I, I think it's, uh, you know, I think it's great. I think, you know, when we were a year ago, it was just a little over a year ago, we were at a multi-cloud conference and I think people kind of thought, wow, is multicloud something that the vendors are wanting to happen because they don't want to be killed by AWS. And you know, I mean, I saw this two years ago, I call it the Cambridge and explosion to cloud where every enterprise to we are now going to move to cloud. And they had been talking about it for six or seven years, but they didn't really mean it. And two years ago I saw they meant it and I knew what was going to happen. It was going to go multi-cloud they we're going to care about day two operations, visibility, control, security, all the things that enterprises care about. And I think, um, you know, what we've seen really over the last year is AWS and all the other cloud providers recognizing this, that the world is going multicloud. Um, and day two operations matter. You've gotta be able to operationalize this and enterprises. Can't just, it's not just about wiring it and building it up. You got do, you can operate it. And so that's, I think the thing that's really interesting is the maturity of the messaging. I would say from AWS to recognize, um, where enterprises are in their journey. >>You know, Steve, I want to just reflect on something. When I was 19 years old in my first job, uh, in New York, it was on a prime mini computer, my first exposure to the enterprise office and then went and worked for IBM and HP and others. I've been in the, around the enterprise. Let me just go back 10 years in Silicon Valley, you could literally count on one or two hands. The number of enterprise experts out there that you knew of that were out circulating that weren't retired. Um, because it went through this kind of commodity stage of outsource everything kind of down to the bone, you know, just keeping the lights on there. Wasn't really a lot of innovation in the enterprise. Now it's the hottest thing in the world. And you, and you look at what's happening with cloud. They're redefining the enterprise in Andy Jassy said to me, and I'm going to interview him, uh, later this week. And you know, he said, we're done with eyes and pads. We checked that's anything. I say anyone, but he's kind of implying that we did. I, as in pass, we're targeting global it. >>Yeah. Well, you know, >>Now enterprise is super hot and you know, it's, it's a whole nother ball game to restructuring on G >>Yeah, I mean, so I, uh, the AWS is marketing slogan, Mark. My words I'll bet you a hundred bucks within the next year is going to change. They are not going to say go build anymore. Right? Because that's what they're going to say. Go consume because no enterprise wants to build and Oh, by the way, here's the other thing that they're now also figuring out. Cause I know Andy Jassy analysis, there's a skills shortage of cloud, so they don't have the skills at the aptitude, but there's also a people shortage. It's not just the skills, it's the amount of people. They don't have the ability to go deploy this. And they're going to, you're going to need solutions like ABA tricks, abstract the way a lot of the complexities of the underlying clouds and deliver this architecture for people to be able to actually deploy. >>Where is the skill gaps in your opinion, where do you see them? >>You know, I was just talking to a customer yesterday and he said most of my, most of my team are CLI jockeys. And so for networking, that means the CLI the command line interface that a human manipulates to control the Cisco router. That's the old operational model. The model of this, these days are Terraform. You're going to infrastructure is code everything. You need scriptures. You need, you need developers that are going to be driving your infrastructure. And, and, but I can't, I can't fire all these people that I've had in my enterprise for the last 30 years. I got to bring them along. I got to bring them along and the tools and the platforms to be able to go, to go do that. >>Andy's argument and Amazon's position is we eliminate the undifferentiated heavy lifting and we have all this training and content to bring everyone along. Okay. By that. >>Well, I mean, here's, here's the thing that I think AWS and all the, all the cloud providers are figuring out is the enterprise is a different beast. You know, when you go to a company as AWS and say, Hey, you can get it as long as it's any color you want, as long as it's black. And so guess what, I'm a service. And the beautiful thing is you don't need to know anything about how we do anything and just trust me, it's all going to work that does not go over well with an enterprise because they say, I'm the guy that needs to know I will get fired. If this infrastructure goes down, you know, you saw us East one go down two weeks ago, Google had a outage to two days ago or whatever it was, shit happens. I don't know if I can say that on the cube. >>We're not going to actually see regulated at this point, but who's going to know. >>Um, and you know what? I've got to have that visibility in controls and enterprise, and I need the granular controls and the visibility to troubleshoot and the security controls and the performance controls that I used to have on prem, because I'm a regulated enterprise. I need that visibility and control. And the cloud providers just say, look, I deliver a service and I deliver it to everybody. And it's the same service. And you don't need to know that does not fly with the >>Well, certainly you're seeing more regulated industries. It used to be just public sector. I just talked with Teresa Carlson. She now took over all the industries. So FinTech is regulated. Energy is regulated. Telecom's regulated. The only thing that's not regulated is a VC and startup sectors, right? So there's a >>Well, and, and, and every, every good CIO of an enterprise knows nothing good comes from your, from your infrastructure that gets outsourced. We tried that it doesn't work. Now, maybe in 20 years, I can outsource my infrastructure if I'm the CIO of a major enterprise corporation. But right now I am not outsourcing that I have to have control. Now, am I going to leverage services and basic infrastructure from the cloud providers? Absolutely. I'm not going to build it on my own data centers. That world is over, but what I'm going to maintain is the visibility and control. >>Yeah. And that's what we heard from Verner. Vogel's around observability systems, thinking control versus observability, um, evolvable systems, things like reasoning, um, you know, these are, these are innovations, right? So, so let's get back to that builders thing, because you mentioned that earlier, I think there might be an opportunity. And I think this is where I think Jassy will either look brilliant or it might not pan out. So go big or go home moment. Can Amazon create a market for companies to say, instead of bringing along everybody, I'm going to bring along some people and hire more builders because there's rewards as spoils to be had for those builders. At this point in time, given the pandemic, it's kind of put everything on full display in terms of what to do. What's your thoughts on that? >>I think, I think outside in meaning I, I look at the customer and I, and I sit at the same side of the table as a customer. I think, what did they want? And every enterprise customer right now is building out their PRI it's just like in 1992, when they built out their private infrastructures, global infrastructure, and they did it with on-prem and data centers. I bought my stories, my compute, my networking, my MPLS, and I built my infrastructure. And it was my infrastructure. They're doing the same thing. It's just, they're architecting on top of cloud and they're doing it in a multi-cloud world because they're not going to be locked in to just one cloud. And they're going to have some applications that run better on GCP. Some have better in AWS and some on Oracle, and all of our customers are doing this. And what they want though, is a common infrastructure. That's their architecture and their infrastructure, not an AWS architecture and a Google architecture and an Azure architecture. What architecture, abstracted away above the clouds. That's my architecture. And it's common for my global network that that's what enterprises want to do. And I think each of the individual clouds are going to have to understand that they are a piece of the puzzle. They are not the puzzle. And I think you're going to have to come to that realization. >>I appreciate your expertise and insight into the commentary real quick, last 30 seconds, give a quick plug for Ava tricks. What are you guys doing? What's new cause the quick update. >>I mean, it's, it's, it's crazy just since, uh, I've been the CEO for two years and you know, the, the logos of large enterprise that we're getting right now. My, my Cambrian explosion that I saw two years ago is real, um, more executing on that strategy. It's a, who's who of logos right now. We've got 450 customers now we're, uh, exploding and more importantly, enterprises are now getting that deployment phase. They have, they're done with the architecture phase of, Hey, let me check this whole thing out in cloud. And now they're pushing the button and they're, they're accelerating, which my guess is it's not a coincidence that AWS is now talking about operations. And what Aviatrix does is, is, is, does gives that visibility and control cloud networking, but in a very cloud native way with Terraform simplicity, agility, because agility is part of mission critical infrastructure. Now can't be like it was in 1994 with a Cisco infrastructure where it said, what year do you want your, your, your infrastructure, Mr. Customer? >>Great. And the biggest thing people should pay attention to this year, uh, for around the enterprise dynamics with cloud and scale what's what should people be watching >>In your opinion? Just the continued movement of big enterprises, uh, all into cloud. The center of gravity is now into cloud and, uh, they're going to be completely running away from everything on prem. >>All right. Steven Landy, CEO of VBA tricks, a proven success entrepreneur CEO, back in the two years of the helm, the VBA tricks. Great to see you. I wish we were in person. One of our last events was your altitude event. It's on YouTube. If anyone was interested in watching, we had a great time. Steve, thank you so much for your candid commentary. Yeah. Thanks, John. Okay. I'm Jennifer with the cube. You're watching the cube virtual here on the cube. Thanks for watching..

>> Narrator: From around the globe, It's the CUBE with digital coverage of next level network experience event. (upbeat music) Brought to you by Infoblox. >> Everyone welcome back to the CUBE's coverage and co-hosting of the Infoblox next level networking experience virtual event. With a pop up event, only a few hours, but four great segments. Officer Stu Miniman helped me kick it off this morning, and Stu, I want to bring you in, Stu Miniman who's the... He host for the CUBE, covering networking with me Stu we do all the cloud native shows. We can, we can smell what's relevant, and I want to get your take on this, because, Infoblox putting out some pretty good content with some great guests. But, next level networking, let's just unpack that, next level networking and next level networking experience. The word experience changes the context of that definition, because going the next level with networking is one thing, having an experience is another, just what's your take, you seen, we talk about this all the time, what's your take? >> Yeah, so John, one of the words that we've talked about so much is, how do we simplify this environment? Networking is known for its complexity. Too often, it's, stuck down in protocols and just the arcane arts that I don't want to think about. Networking at its best, is just going to work. And I don't want to think about it, so, if I'm adopting SaaS models, if I'm going cloud native, it should, tie into everything else we're doing. What I was hearing, the themes, John, and the interviews you discussed, they're talking about SaaS, they're talking about cloud native, things like visibility, moving real time, really changes so much of these environments, so, IP addresses used to be a lot more static. We know now, things just change constantly and that's one of the big challenges. How do I monitor that environment? How do I keep them secure? And that's where modern environments need to go to the next level to be able to keep up with all of those changes. >> The word experience means something to me in a sense, I think contemporary, right? I think something new, relevant and cool, and still we're old enough to remember the '80s and '90s, and I was coming out of college late '80s, and I remember I never had a punch, I never did any program with a punch card. I was kind of the young gun, coming into the workforce with a technical degree, and I remember looking at the mainframe guys going, "who are those old relics?" And they, those guys hung onto their job as long as they could, and the smart ones moved and said, "Hey, I'm going to jump on this mini computer bandwagon, Oh, there's inter networking and local area networking that the PC toys are attaching to, that's interesting." And so you had a migration of systems talent move to the new, the new way. Some didn't, and I look at that and I say, hmm, that's similar to what's going on in networking, if you're the old networking guy or gal, and you're hugging onto the router, or you're hugging onto that old way, you could be extinct, because there is a new experience coming. It's programmable, it's automation, it's different. It's not, the big, old way, similar to the mainframe. So, a lot of psychology in this networking industry right now is, and the young people come in. It's like, why we do it that way? This to me is about next level networking, experience. Your reaction to that. >> Yeah, well, John, it's been interesting here in 2020, you talk about the acceleration of things moving, people that were dipping their toe in cloud and have to move in a matter of weeks, if not, hours and days to get things up and running. So, leveraging software, open source is a big component of what a lot of companies are doing, and of course, cloud and that cloud experience means in the public cloud and edge environments, you talked a bit about IOT in some of these cases, the order of magnitude of networking challenges that are out there are such that I have to have automation, it needs to be simpler because I could not do things the manual old way. John, I lived through so many generations, you work with people in the networking, it's manually done. It was done via CLI, because I knew how to do it. Maybe I did some scripting, but in today's day and era, things change too fast and the amount of work that needs to be done is so much so that that's why automation needs to be front and center. And you see Infoblox, as some of their new solutions, especially leveraging SnapRoute take advantage of the modern way that people need to do things. >> Well, we actually did a deep dive on SnapRoute and it was super impressive, again, I thought it was way too early, but they were doing some stuff with Kubernetes thinking, just thinking like Linux kernel, low level thinking. And I think Stu, this is what I want to get your thoughts on, because in the industry we cover Cisco aggressively. We saw them by open DNS, manage services versus low level, we got automation, you got Amazon out there, I mean, hell I can just have a screen that goes in and manages my DNS in the cloud, I can start thinking differently about how I wire my services together, if I think about Amazon, for instance, or hybrid and multicloud, this a whole new level of thinking. And, these are going to be new solutions, and this is the theme that came up and it's come up across every single major vendor, whether we're talking the Google cause they have a pretty damn good network. You got Cisco, you've got, all these people out there, they got to reinvent themselves. And, new expectations require new solutions. This has been something that's clearly coming out of the COVID, that, you know what I like working from home, I'm more productive. We don't need the real estate costs, wait, why do we even need a VPN? Why we over-provisioned? What are we paying for? Let's just build and secure. So again, all these projects are going to come out of the woodwork, I think that they're going to create a new vendor, a new brand or new opportunity because, these new solutions need to come because of the demand has been highlighted by COVID and other cloud scale. What's your thoughts on that, because this may not be your grandfather's networking company that comes out of the woodwork, It might be a cloud app. >> Yeah, well John, first of all, I think you nailed it. You look at a company like Infoblox, founded back in the .com era, back in 1999 and dominant in their space. So, they're not here saying, oh, we're the tried and trusted company that you work with, and you shouldn't try that new Fangled, Kubernetes piece or anything like that. It's not ready for prime time. As you said, they're getting, they're looking to skate where, to where the pack is going, they're aggressively going after these environments to make sure that they maintain their leadership in this environment. And, you're absolutely right, for the longest time, generally in networking, you were talking about, it was Cisco and everybody else out there, but now the cloud is such a big piece of what's going on, we've seen chip acquisitions by the big Hyperscalers, we've seen how they build their environments, and in many ways there's been consolidation, but there's also been dis-aggregation. So, the fundamental layer, but like what Infoblox has with their DDI stack, is something that customers need, I need to make sure my identity and my IP is something that I can manage wherever I am in all of these environment. >> It's funny Stu, we joke about SD-WAN, and now that's the internet and you think about the internet, one constant in all of it is you got to move packets from point a to point B and store a packet in a storage device, and ultimately you need to have to resolve addresses. And DNS, as old as it is, is fundamentally the standard, and a lot of people take it for granted, so to me, DNS has survived. It's a low level building block, but as things evolve, new abstraction layers come up, and I think we'll see more. I mean, I think there'll be a new naming system on how to deal with different scale across multicloud. And I think, Amazon is talking about it. We hear Ava Trix talking about it, we hear, things going on within Google talking about it, so, I think you're going to start to see new levels of innovation because, that's where the packets are moving, that's what the bad guys are, and you can't cover your footprints if you're trying to get in there. So, huge change is coming will be on it, And the CUBE we'll be monitoring it, as always, we can see the waves coming, Stu, what do you see? What's your future ball, tell you, as we come out of COVID, networking world, cloud collision, multicloud, apps, microservices, all this massive wave, what's your take, What's going to happen? >> Well yeah John, we've talked so much, It's those builders out there, how do I make sure that I can build my application, allow my users to access things wherever they are. The shift we hear for post COVID, it goes from work from home to work from anywhere. So, we were not going to see everybody just go back to the pre COVID era, this will have a lasting impact, and especially from a networking standpoint, we were starting to look at how does 5G and IOT change the way we think of networking? This just accelerates what we Needed to look at. Some networking technologies, take a long time to go through their maturation and standards, but being able to manage my entire environment, be able to spin up my new applications, and as you said John, DNS, like identity is something that is a fundamental piece that I need to make sure is rock solid so that I can get my employees access to the information while still keep things secure. >> Well, when you click on a link, that's malware, that's DNS, so this is where the action is, and people got to preserve it. Stu, We're going to be covering it, we're going to be watching all the waves, and again, this the CUBE on top of the big wave of networking and as networking evolves, I just still, I just still think, it's one big IOT world now, and it's an internet of things. They're all connected, there's no perimeter, it's borderless. This is going to change the game. I think in the next 18 months, we're going to see really different connected experiences and whoever can deliver them, will be the winner. Of course, we'll be watching it, go to siliconangle.com. We have a special report on next gen networking, Rob hope from Paul Gillin are constantly reporting, Stu has been getting a ton of great interviews, and again, we're getting the stories out, during COVID-19, with our remote interviews. Thanks for watching the CUBE, for the special next level networking experience event by Infoblox. (upbeat music)

>> Narrator: From around the globe, it's theCUBE with digital coverage of Dockercon Live 2020, brought to you by Docker and it's ecosystem partners. >> Everyone welcome back to Dockercon 2020, #Docker20. This is theCUBE and Docker's coverage of Dockercon 20. I'm John Furrier in the Palo Alto studios with our quarantine crew, we got a great interview segment here and big news around developer workflow code to cloud. We've got Amanda Silver, Corporate Vice President, product for developer tools at Microsoft and Scott Johnson, the CEO of Docker. Scott had a great Keynote talking about this relationship news has hit about the extension of the Microsoft partnership. So congratulations, Amanda, welcome to theCUBE. >> Thanks for having me. >> Amanda, tell us about what your role is at Microsoft. You guys are well known in the developer community. You had to develop a ecosystem even when I was in college going way back. Very modern now, the cloud is the key, code to cloud, that's the theme. Tell us about your role at Microsoft. >> Yeah, so I basically run the product, Product Design and User Research team that works on our developer tools at Microsoft. And so that includes the Visual Studio product as well as Visual Studio code that's become pretty popular in the last few years but it also includes things like the dotNET runtime and the TypeScript programming language, as well as all of our Azure tooling. >> What's your thoughts on the relationship with Docker? Obviously the news extension of an existing relationship, Microsoft's got a lot of tools, you got a lot of things you guys are doing, bringing the cloud to every business. Tell us about your thoughts on this relationship with Docker? >> Yeah well, we're very excited about the partnership for sure. Our goal is really to make sure that Azure is a fantastic place where all developers can kind of bring their code and they feel welcome. They feel natural. We really see a unique opportunity to make the experience really great for the Docker community by creating more integrated and seamless experience across Docker desktop, Windows and Visual Studio and we really appreciate how Docker has kind of, supported our Windows ecosystem to run in Docker as well. >> Scott, this relationship and an extension with Microsoft is really, I think, impressive and also notable because Microsoft's got so many tools out there and they have so successful with Azure. You guys have been so successful with your developer community but this also is a reflective of the new Docker. Can you share your thoughts on how this partnership with Microsoft, extending the way it is, with the growth of the cloud is a reflection of the new Docker? >> Yeah, absolutely John, it's a great question. One of the things that we've really been focused on since November is fully embracing the ecosystem and all the partnerships and all the possibilities of that ecosystem and part of that is just reality that we're a smaller company now and we can't do it all, nor should we do it all. Part of it's the reality that developers love choice and no one's going to change their minds on choice, and third is just acknowledging that there's so much creativity and so much energy outside the four walls of Docker that we'd be silly not to take advantage of that and welcome it and embrace it and provide that as a phenomenal experience for our developers. So this is a great example of that. The Snyk partnership we announced last week is a great example of that and you're going to see many more partnerships like this going forward that are reflective of exactly this point. >> You've been a visionary on the product side, interviewed before. Also deploying is more important than ever, that whole workflow simplifying, it's not getting complex, people want choice, building code, managing code, deploying code. This has been a big focus of yours. Can you just share your thoughts on where Microsoft comes in? Because they got stuff too, you've got stuff, it all works together. What's your thoughts? >> Right, so it needs to work together because developers want to focus on their app. They don't want to focus on duct taping and stringing together different siloed pools. So you can see in the demo and you'll see in demonstrations later throughout the conference, just the seamless experience that a developer gets in the Docker command line inner operating with Visual Studio Code, with the Docker command line and then deploying to Azure and what's wonderful about the partnership is that both parties put real engineering effort and design effort into making it a great experience. So a lot of the complexities around configuration, around default settings, around security, user management, all of that is abstracted out and taken away from the developers so they can focus on applications and getting those applications deployed to the cloud as quickly as possible. Getting their apps from code to cloud is the watchword or the call to action for this partnership and we think we've really hit it out of the park with the integration that you saw. >> Great validation in the critical part of the workflow you guys been part of. Amanda, we're living in a time we're doing these remote interviews. The COVID crisis has shown the productivity gains of working at home and working, sheltering in place but it also has highlighted the focus of developers, mainly who have also worked at home. They're been kind of used to this, you see the rigs. I saw at Microsoft build some amazing rigs from the studio, so these guys streaming their code demos. This is a Cambrian explosion of new kinds of productivity. You got the world's getting more complex at scale. This is what cloud does. What's your thoughts on this? 'Cause the tooling, there's more tools than ever, right? >> Yeah. >> I still got to deploy code. It's got to be more agile, it's got to be faster, it's got to be at scale. This is what you guys believe in. What's your thinking on all these tooling and abstraction layers? And the end of the day, developers still got to do their job. >> Yeah, well, absolutely. And now even more than ever, I think we've certainly seen over the past few months, a more rapid acceleration of digital transformation that has really happened in the past few years. Paper processes are now becoming digital processes all of a sudden. Everybody needs to work and learn from home and so there's just this rapid acceleration to kind of move everything to support our new remote first lifestyle. But even more so, we now have remote development teams actually working from home as well in a variety of different kinds of environments, whether they're using their own personal machine to connect to their infrastructure or they're using a work issued machine. It's more important than ever that developers are productive but they are productive as a team. Software is a team sport, we all need to be able to work together and to be able to collaborate. And one of the most important aspects of agility for developers is consistency. And what Docker really enables with containerization, is to make the infrastructure consistent and repeatable so that as developers are moving through the lifecycle from their local desktop and developing on their local desktop, to a test environment and to staging and to production, it's really, it's infrastructure for developers as well as operations. And so, that infrastructure, that's completely customizable for what the developers operating system of choice is, what their app stack is, all of those dependencies kind of running together. And so that's what really enables developers to be really agile and have a really fast iteration cycle but also to have that consistency across all of their development team. And we now need to think about things like, how are we actually going to bring on interns for the summer and make sure that they can actually set up their developer boxes in a consistent way that we can actually support them and things like Docker really help with that. >> As your container instances and Visual Studio cloud that you guys have has had great success. There's a mix and match formula here and the other day, developers want to ship the code. What's the message that you guys are sending here with this because I think productivity is one, simplification is the other but as developers, we're on the front lines and they're shipping in real time. This is a big part of the value proposition that you guys bringing to the table. >> Yeah, the core message is that any developer and their code is welcome (laughs) and that we really want to support them, empower them and increase their velocity and the impact that they can have. And so, having things like the fact that the Docker CLI is natively integrated into the Azure experience is a really important aspect of making sure that developers are feeling welcome and feeling comfortable. And now that the Docker CLI tools that are part of Docker desktop have access to native commands that work well with Azure container instances, Azure container instances, if anybody is unfamiliar with that, is the simplest and fastest way to kind of set up containers in Azure and so we believe that developers have really been looking for a really simple way to kind of get containers on Azure and now we have that really consistent experience across our servers, services and our tools. Visual Studio code and Visual Studio extensions make full use of Docker desktop and the Docker CLI so that they can get that combination of the productivity and the power that they're looking for. And in fact, we've integrated these as a design point since very early on in our partnership when we've been partnering with Docker for quite a while. >> Amanda, I want to ask you about the tool chain. We've heard about workflows, making it simpler. Bottom line from a developer standpoint, what's the bottom line for me? What does this mean to me, everyday developer out there? >> I really think it means, your productivity on your terms. And so, Microsoft has been a developer company since the very beginning with Bill Gates and GW Basic. And it's actually similar for Docker. They really have a developer first point of view, which certainly speaks to my heart and so one of the things that we're really trying to do with Docker is to make sure that we can create a workflow that's super productive at every stage of the developer experience, no matter which stack they're actually targeting, whether there's targeting Node or Python, or dotNET and C Sharp or Java, we really want to make sure that we have a super simple experience that you can actually initiate all of these commands, create Docker container images and use the Docker compose files. And then, just kind of do that consistently, as you're deploying it all the way up into your infrastructure in Azure. And the other thing that we really want to make sure is that that even post deployment, you can actually inspect and diagnose these containers and images without having to leave the tool. So we also think about the process of writing the code but also the process of kind of managing the code and remediating issues that might come up in production. And so we really want you to be able to look at containers up in the Azure, that are deployed into Azure and make sure that they're running and healthy and that if something's wrong, that you can actually open up a shell and be in an interactive mode and be able to look at the logs from those containers and even inspect one to see environment variables or other details. >> Yeah, that's awesome. Writing code, managing code and then you got to deploy, right? So what I've been loving about the past generation of Agile is deployment's been faster to play off all the time. Scott, this brings up that the ease of use but you'll want to actually leverage automation. This is the trend that you want to get into. You want to make it easy to write code, manage code but during the deployment phase, that's a big innovation. That's the last point, making that better and stronger. What's your thoughts on simplifying that? >> Well, as a big part of this partnership, John, that Docker and Microsoft embarked on, as you saw from the demo in the keynote, all within the Docker command line, the developer's able to do it in two simple commands, deploy an app, define and compose from their desktop to Azure. And there's a whole slew of automation and pre-configured smart defaults or sane defaults that have gone on behind the scenes and it a lot of hardcore engineering work on part of Docker-Microsoft together to simplify that and make that easy. And that goes exactly to your point, which is, the simpler you can make it, make an abstract way to kind of underline plumbing and infrastructure, the faster Devs can get their application from code to cloud. >> Scott, you've been a product CEO, you've been a product person now you're the CEO but you have a product back when you've been involved with a relationship with Microsoft for a long time. What's the state of the market right now? I see Microsoft has evolved because just the performance, corporate performance, the shift to the cloud has been phenomenal. Now developers getting more empowered, there's more demand for the pressure to put developers to do more and more creativity. So you've seen this evolve, this relationship, what does it mean? >> Yeah, it's honestly a wonderful question, John and I want to thank Amanda and the entire Microsoft team for being long standing partners with us on this journey. So it might not be known to everyone on today's day's event but Microsoft came to the very first Dockercon event way back in June 2014 and I had the privilege of greeting them and welcoming them and then they were full on, ready to see what all the excitement about Docker was about and really embraced it. And you mentioned kind of openness in Microsoft's growth over time in that dimension and we think Docker, together with Microsoft have really shown what an open developer community can do. That started back in 2014 and then we embarked on an open source collaboration around the Docker command line of the Docker engine, bringing that Docker engine from Linux and now moving it to Windows applications. And so all the sudden the promise of write once and use the same primitives, the same formats, the same command lines, as you can with Linux onto Windows applications, we brought that promise to the market. And it's been an ongoing journey together with Microsoft on open standards base, developer facing friendliness, ease of use, fast time to deploy and this partnership that we announced yesterday and we highlighted at the keynote is just another example of that ongoing relationship, laser-like focused on developer productivity and helping teams build great apps. >> Why do you like Azure in the cloud for Docker? Can you share why? >> Well, as Amanda has been sharing, it's super focused on, what are the needs of developers to help them continue to stay focused on their apps and not have their cognitive load burdened by other aspects of getting their apps to the cloud and Azure does a phenomenal job of simplifying and providing sane defaults out of the box. And as we've been talking about, it's also very open to partner integrations like the one we've announced yesterday and highlighted that make it just easy for development teams to choose their tools and build their apps and deploy them onto Azure as quickly as possible. So it's a phenomenal platform for developers and we're very excited and proud to partner with Microsoft on it. >> Amanda on your side, I see Docker's got millions of developers. you guys got millions of developers even more. How do you see the developers in Microsoft's side engaging with Docker desktop and Docker hub? Where does it all fit? I mentioned earlier how I see Docker context really improving the way that individuals and teams work with their environments in making sure that they're consistent but I think this really comes together as we work with Docker desktop and Docker Hub. When developers sign in to Docker Hub from Docker desktop, everything kind of lights up and so they can see all of the images in their repositories and they can also see the cloud environments that they're running them in. And so, once you sign into the Hub, you can see all the contexts that map to the logical environments they have access to, like Dev, NQA and maybe staging. And another use case that's really important is that we can access the same integration environment. So, I can have microservices that I've been working on but I can also see microservices that my teammates and their logs from the services that they've been working on, which I think is really great and certainly helps with team productivity. The other thing too, is that this also really helps with hybrid cloud deployments, where, you might have some on-premises hosted containers and you might have some that's hosted in a public cloud. And so you can see all of those things through your Docker Hub. >> Well, I got to say, I love the code to cloud tagline, I think that's very relevant and catchy. And I think, I guess to me what I'm seeing and I'd love to get your thoughts, Amanda on this is you oversee a key part of Microsoft's business that's important for developers, just the vibe and people are amped up right now. I know people are tensed, anxiety with the COVID-19 crisis but I think people are generally agreeing that this is going to be a massive inflection point for just more headroom needed for developers to accelerate their value on the front lines. What's your personal take on this? You've seen these waves before but now in this time, what are you most excited about? What are you optimistic about? What's your view on the opportunities? Can you share your thoughts, because people are going to get back to work. They're working now remotely but if we go back to hybrid world, they're going to be jamming on projects. >> Yeah, for sure but people are jamming on projects right now and I think that in a lot of ways, developers are first responders in that they are... Developers are always trying to support somebody else. We're trying to support somebody else's workflow and so we have examples of people who are creating new remote systems to be able to schedule meetings in hospitals for the doctors who are actually the first responders taking care of patients but at the end of the day, it's the developer who's actually creating that solution. And so we're being called to duty right now and so we need to make sure that we're actually there to support the needs of our users and that we're basically cranking on code as fast as we can. And to be able to do that, we have to make sure that every developer is empowered and they can move quickly but also that they can collaborate really quickly. And so I think that Docker Hub, Docker kind of helps you ensure that you have that consistency but you also have that connection to the infrastructure that's hosted by your your organization. >> I think you nailed, that's amazing insight. I think that's... The current situation in the community matters because there's a lot of frontline work being done to your point but then we got to rebuild, the modernization is happening as well coming out of this so there's going to be that. And there's a lot of camaraderie going on and massive community involvement I'm seeing more of. The empathy but also now there's going to be the building, the creation, the new creation. So, Scott, this is going to call for more simplicity and to abstract away the complexities. This is the core issue. >> Well, that's exactly right. And it is time to build and we're going to build our way out of this and it is the community that's responding. And so in some sense, Microsoft and Docker are there to support that moory energy and give them the tools to go and identify and have an impact as quickly as possible. I referenced in the keynote, completely bottoms up organic adoption of Docker desktop and Docker Hub in racing to provide solutions against the COVID-19 virus. It's a war against this pandemic that is heavily dependent on applications and data. And there's over 200 projects, community projects on Docker Hub today, where you've got tools and containers and data analysis all in service to the COVID-19 battle that's being fought. And then as you said, John, as we get through the other side, there's entire industries that are completely rethinking their approach that were largely offline before but now see the imperative and the importance of going online. And that tectonic shift, nearly overnight of offline to online behavior and commerce and social and going down the list, that requires new application development. And I'm very pleased about this partnership is that together, we're giving developers the tools to really take advantage of that opportunity and go and build our way out of it. >> Well, Scott, congratulations on a great extended partnership with Microsoft and the Docker brand. I'm a big fan from day one. I know you guys have pivoted on a new trajectory, which is phenomenal, very community oriented, very open source, very open. So congratulations on that. Amanda, thanks for spending the time to come on. I'll give you the final word. Take a minute to talk about what's new at Microsoft for the folks that know Microsoft, know they have a developer mindset from day one. Cloud is exploding, code to cloud. What's the update? What's the new narrative? What should people know about Microsoft with developer community? Can you share some data for the folks that aren't in the community or might want to join or the folks in the community who want to get an update? >> Yeah, it's a great kind of question. Right now, I think we are all really focused on making sure that we can empower developers throughout the world and that includes both those who are building solutions for their organizations today but also, I think we're going to end up with a ton of new developers over this next period, who are really entering the workforce and learning to create digital solutions. Overall, there's a massive developer shortage across the world. There's so much opportunity for developers to kind of address a lot of the needs that we're seeing out of organizations, again, across the world. And so I think it's just a really exciting time to be a developer and my only hope is that basically we're building tools that actually enable them to solve the problem. >> Awesome insight, and thank you so much for your time. Code to cloud developers are cranking away, they're the first responders, going to take care of business and then continue to build out the modern applications. And when you have a crisis like this, people cut right through the noise and get right to the tools that matter. So thanks for sharing the Microsoft-Docker partnership and the things that you guys are working on together. Thanks for your time. >> Thank you. >> Thank you. >> Okay, this is theCUBE's coverage. We are at Dockercon 2020 Digital. This is theCUBE Virtual. I'm John Furrier, bringing all the action, more coverage. Stay with us for more Dockercon Virtual after this short break. (gentle music)

>> Announcer: From around the globe, it's the queue with digital coverage of DockerCon live 2020. Brought to you by Docker and its ecosystem partners. >> Welcome, welcome, welcome to DockerCon 2020. We got over 50,000 people registered so there's clearly a ton of interest in the world of Docker and Eddie's as I like to call it. And we've assembled a power panel of Open Source and cloud native experts to talk about where things stand in 2020 and where we're headed. I'm Shawn Conley, I'll be the moderator for today's panel. I'm also a proud alum of JBoss, Red Hat, SpringSource, VMware and Hortonworks and I'm broadcasting from my hometown of Philly. Our panelists include; Michelle Noorali, Senior Software Engineer at Microsoft, joining us from Atlanta, Georgia. We have Kelsey Hightower, Principal developer advocate at Google Cloud, joining us from Washington State and we have Chris Aniszczyk, CTO CIO at the CNCF, joining us from Austin, Texas. So I think we have the country pretty well covered. Thank you all for spending time with us on this power panel. Chris, I'm going to start with you, let's dive right in. You've been in the middle of the Docker netease wave since the beginning with a clear focus on building a better world through open collaboration. What are your thoughts on how the Open Source landscape has evolved over the past few years? Where are we in 2020? And where are we headed from both community and a tech perspective? Just curious to get things sized up? >> Sure, when CNCF started about roughly four, over four years ago, the technology mostly focused on just the things around Kubernetes, monitoring communities with technology like Prometheus, and I think in 2020 and the future, we definitely want to move up the stack. So there's a lot of tools being built on the periphery now. So there's a lot of tools that handle running different types of workloads on Kubernetes. So things like Uvert and Shay runs VMs on Kubernetes, which is crazy, not just containers. You have folks that, Microsoft experimenting with a project called Kruslet which is trying to run web assembly workloads natively on Kubernetes. So I think what we've seen now is more and more tools built around the periphery, while the core of Kubernetes has stabilized. So different technologies and spaces such as security and different ways to run different types of workloads. And at least that's kind of what I've seen. >> So do you have a fair amount of vendors as well as end users still submitting in projects in, is there still a pretty high volume? >> Yeah, we have 48 total projects in CNCF right now and Michelle could speak a little bit more to this being on the DOC, the pipeline for new projects is quite extensive and it covers all sorts of spaces from two service meshes to security projects and so on. So it's ever so expanding and filling in gaps in that cloud native landscape that we have. >> Awesome. Michelle, Let's head to you. But before we actually dive in, let's talk a little glory days. A rumor has it that you are the Fifth Grade Kickball Championship team captain. (Michelle laughs) Are the rumors true? >> They are, my speech at the end of the year was the first talk I ever gave. But yeah, it was really fun. I wasn't captain 'cause I wasn't really great at anything else apart from constantly cheer on the team. >> A little better than my eighth grade Spelling Champ Award so I think I'd rather have the kickball. But you've definitely, spent a lot of time leading an Open Source, you've been across many projects for many years. So how does the art and science of collaboration, inclusivity and teamwork vary? 'Cause you're involved in a variety of efforts, both in the CNCF and even outside of that. And then what are some tips for expanding the tent of Open Source projects? >> That's a good question. I think it's about transparency. Just come in and tell people what you really need to do and clearly articulate your problem, more clearly articulate your problem and why you can't solve it with any other solution, the more people are going to understand what you're trying to do and be able to collaborate with you better. What I love about Open Source is that where I've seen it succeed is where incentives of different perspectives and parties align and you're just transparent about what you want. So you can collaborate where it makes sense, even if you compete as a company with another company in the same area. So I really like that, but I just feel like transparency and honesty is what it comes down to and clearly communicating those objectives. >> Yeah, and the various foundations, I think one of the things that I've seen, particularly Apache Software Foundation and others is the notion of checking your badge at the door. Because the competition might be between companies, but in many respects, you have engineers across many companies that are just kicking butt with the tech they contribute, claiming victory in one way or the other might make for interesting marketing drama. But, I think that's a little bit of the challenge. In some of the, standards-based work you're doing I know with CNI and some other things, are they similar, are they different? How would you compare and contrast into something a little more structured like CNCF? >> Yeah, so most of what I do is in the CNCF, but there's specs and there's projects. I think what CNCF does a great job at is just iterating to make it an easier place for developers to collaborate. You can ask the CNCF for basically whatever you need, and they'll try their best to figure out how to make it happen. And we just continue to work on making the processes are clearer and more transparent. And I think in terms of specs and projects, those are such different collaboration environments. Because if you're in a project, you have to say, "Okay, I want this feature or I want this bug fixed." But when you're in a spec environment, you have to think a little outside of the box and like, what framework do you want to work in? You have to think a little farther ahead in terms of is this solution or this decision we're going to make going to last for the next how many years? You have to get more of a buy in from all of the key stakeholders and maintainers. So it's a little bit of a longer process, I think. But what's so beautiful is that you have this really solid, standard or interface that opens up an ecosystem and allows people to build things that you could never have even imagined or dreamed of so-- >> Gotcha. So I'm Kelsey, we'll head over to you as your focus is on, developer advocate, you've been in the cloud native front lines for many years. Today developers are faced with a ton of moving parts, spanning containers, functions, Cloud Service primitives, including container services, server-less platforms, lots more, right? I mean, there's just a ton of choice. How do you help developers maintain a minimalist mantra in the face of such a wealth of choice? I think minimalism I hear you talk about that periodically, I know you're a fan of that. How do you pass that on and your developer advocacy in your day to day work? >> Yeah, I think, for most developers, most of this is not really the top of mind for them, is something you may see a post on Hacker News, and you might double click into it. Maybe someone on your team brought one of these tools in and maybe it leaks up into your workflow so you're forced to think about it. But for most developers, they just really want to continue writing code like they've been doing. And the best of these projects they'll never see. They just work, they get out of the way, they help them with log in, they help them run their application. But for most people, this isn't the core idea of the job for them. For people in operations, on the other hand, maybe these components fill a gap. So they look at a lot of this stuff that you see in the CNCF and Open Source space as number one, various companies or teams sharing the way that they do things, right? So these are ideas that are put into the Open Source, some of them will turn into products, some of them will just stay as projects that had mutual benefit for multiple people. But for the most part, it's like walking through an ion like Home Depot. You pick the tools that you need, you can safely ignore the ones you don't need, and maybe something looks interesting and maybe you study it to see if that if you have a problem. And for most people, if you don't have that problem that that tool solves, you should be happy. No one needs every project and I think that's where the foundation for confusion. So my main job is to help people not get stuck and confused in LAN and just be pragmatic and just use the tools that work for 'em. >> Yeah, and you've spent the last little while in the server-less space really diving into that area, compare and contrast, I guess, what you found there, minimalist approach, who are you speaking to from a server-less perspective versus that of the broader CNCF? >> The thing that really pushed me over, I was teaching my daughter how to make a website. So she's on her Chromebook, making a website, and she's hitting 127.0.0.1, and it looks like geo cities from the 90s but look, she's making website. And she wanted her friends to take a look. So she copied and paste from her browser 127.0.0.1 and none of her friends could pull it up. So this is the point where every parent has to cross that line and say, "Hey, do I really need to sit down "and teach my daughter about Linux "and Docker and Kubernetes." That isn't her main goal, her goal was to just launch her website in a way that someone else can see it. So we got Firebase installed on her laptop, she ran one command, Firebase deploy. And our site was up in a few minutes, and she sent it over to her friend and there you go, she was off and running. The whole server-less movement has that philosophy as one of the stated goal that needs to be the workflow. So, I think server-less is starting to get closer and closer, you start to see us talk about and Chris mentioned this earlier, we're moving up the stack. Where we're going to up the stack, the North Star there is feel where you get the focus on what you're doing, and not necessarily how to do it underneath. And I think server-less is not quite there yet but every type of workload, stateless web apps check, event driven workflows check, but not necessarily for things like machine learning and some other workloads that more traditional enterprises want to run so there's still work to do there. So server-less for me, serves as the North Star for why all these Projects exists for people that may have to roll their own platform, to provide the experience. >> So, Chris, on a related note, with what we were just talking about with Kelsey, what's your perspective on the explosion of the cloud native landscape? There's, a ton of individual projects, each can be used separately, but in many cases, they're like Lego blocks and used together. So things like the surface mesh interface, standardizing interfaces, so things can snap together more easily, I think, are some of the approaches but are you doing anything specifically to encourage this cross fertilization and collaboration of bug ability, because there's just a ton of projects, not only at the CNCF but outside the CNCF that need to plug in? >> Yeah, I mean, a lot of this happens organically. CNCF really provides of the neutral home where companies, competitors, could trust each other to build interesting technology. We don't force integration or collaboration, it happens on its own. We essentially allow the market to decide what a successful project is long term or what an integration is. We have a great Technical Oversight Committee that helps shepherd the overall technical vision for the organization and sometimes steps in and tries to do the right thing when it comes to potentially integrating a project. Previously, we had this issue where there was a project called Open Tracing, and an effort called Open Census, which is basically trying to standardize how you're going to deal with metrics, on the tree and so on in a cloud native world that we're essentially competing with each other. The CNCF TC and committee came together and merged those projects into one parent ever called Open Elementary and so that to me is a case study of how our committee helps, bridges things. But we don't force things, we essentially want our community of end users and vendors to decide which technology is best in the long term, and we'll support that. >> Okay, awesome. And, Michelle, you've been focused on making distributed systems digestible, which to me is about simplifying things. And so back when Docker arrived on the scene, some people referred to it as developer dopamine, which I love that term, because it's simplified a bunch of crufty stuff for developers and actually helped them focus on doing their job, writing code, delivering code, what's happening in the community to help developers wire together multi-part modern apps in a way that's elegant, digestible, feels like a dopamine rush? >> Yeah, one of the goals of the(mumbles) project was to make it easier to deploy an application on Kubernetes so that you could see what the finished product looks like. And then dig into all of the things that that application is composed of, all the resources. So we're really passionate about this kind of stuff for a while now. And I love seeing projects that come into the space that have this same goal and just iterate and make things easier. I think we have a ways to go still, I think a lot of the iOS developers and JS developers I get to talk to don't really care that much about Kubernetes. They just want to, like Kelsey said, just focus on their code. So one of the projects that I really like working with is Tilt gives you this dashboard in your CLI, aggregates all your logs from your applications, And it kind of watches your application changes, and reconfigures those changes in Kubernetes so you can see what's going on, it'll catch errors, anything with a dashboard I love these days. So Yali is like a metrics dashboard that's integrated with STL, a service graph of your service mesh, and lets you see the metrics running there. I love that, I love that dashboard so much. Linkerd has some really good service graph images, too. So anything that helps me as an end user, which I'm not technically an end user, but me as a person who's just trying to get stuff up and running and working, see the state of the world easily and digest them has been really exciting to see. And I'm seeing more and more dashboards come to light and I'm very excited about that. >> Yeah, as part of the DockerCon just as a person who will be attending some of the sessions, I'm really looking forward to see where DockerCompose is going, I know they opened up the spec to broader input. I think your point, the good one, is there's a bit more work to really embrace the wealth of application artifacts that compose a larger application. So there's definitely work the broader community needs to lean in on, I think. >> I'm glad you brought that up, actually. Compose is something that I should have mentioned and I'm glad you bring that up. I want to see programming language libraries, integrate with the Compose spec. I really want to see what happens with that I think is great that they open that up and made that a spec because obviously people really like using Compose. >> Excellent. So Kelsey, I'd be remiss if I didn't touch on your January post on changelog entitled, "Monoliths are the Future." Your post actually really resonated with me. My son works for a software company in Austin, Texas. So your hometown there, Chris. >> Yeah. >> Shout out to Will and the chorus team. His development work focuses on adding modern features via micro services as extensions to the core monolith that the company was founded on. So just share some thoughts on monoliths, micro services. And also, what's deliverance dopamine from your perspective more broadly, but people usually phrase as monoliths versus micro services, but I get the sense you don't believe it's either or. >> Yeah, I think most companies from the pragmatic so one of their argument is one of pragmatism. Most companies have trouble designing any app, monolith, deployable or microservices architecture. And then these things evolve over time. Unless you're really careful, it's really hard to know how to slice these things. So taking an idea or a problem and just knowing how to perfectly compartmentalize it into individual deployable component, that's hard for even the best people to do. And double down knowing the actual solution to the particular problem. A lot of problems people are solving they're solving for the first time. It's really interesting, our industry in general, a lot of people who work in it have never solved the particular problem that they're trying to solve for the first time. So that's interesting. The other part there is that most of these tools that are here to help are really only at the infrastructure layer. We're talking freeways and bridges and toll bridges, but there's nothing that happens in the actual developer space right there in memory. So the libraries that interface to the structure logging, the libraries that deal with rate limiting, the libraries that deal with authorization, can this person make this query with this user ID? A lot of those things are still left for developers to figure out on their own. So while we have things like the brunettes and fluid D, we have all of these tools to deploy apps into those target, most developers still have the problem of everything you do above that line. And to be honest, the majority of the complexity has to be resolved right there in the app. That's the thing that's taking requests directly from the user. And this is where maybe as an industry, we're over-correcting. So we had, you said you come from the JBoss world, I started a lot of my Cisco administration, there's where we focus a little bit more on the actual application needs, maybe from a router that as well. But now what we're seeing is things like Spring Boot, start to offer a little bit more integration points in the application space itself. So I think the biggest parts that are missing now are what are the frameworks people will use for authorization? So you have projects like OPA, Open Policy Agent for those that are new to that, it gives you this very low level framework, but you still have to understand the concepts around, what does it mean to allow someone to do something and one missed configuration, all your security goes out of the window. So I think for most developers this is where the next set of challenges lie, if not actually the original challenge. So for some people, they were able to solve most of these problems with virtualization, run some scripts, virtualize everything and be fine. And monoliths were okay for that. For some reason, we've thrown pragmatism out of the window and some people are saying the only way to solve these problems is by breaking the app into 1000 pieces. Forget the fact that you had trouble managing one piece, you're going to somehow find the ability to manage 1000 pieces with these tools underneath but still not solving the actual developer problems. So this is where you've seen it already with a couple of popular blog posts from other companies. They cut too deep. They're going from 2000, 3000 microservices back to maybe 100 or 200. So to my world, it's going to be not just one monolith, but end up maybe having 10 or 20 monoliths that maybe reflect the organization that you have versus the architectural pattern that you're at. >> I view it as like a constellation of stars and planets, et cetera. Where you you might have a star that has a variety of, which is a monolith, and you have a variety of sort of planetary microservices that float around it. But that's reality, that's the reality of modern applications, particularly if you're not starting from a clean slate. I mean your points, a good one is, in many respects, I think the infrastructure is code movement has helped automate a bit of the deployment of the platform. I've been personally focused on app development JBoss as well as springsSource. The Spring team I know that tech pretty well over the years 'cause I was involved with that. So I find that James Governor's discussion of progressive delivery really resonates with me, as a developer, not so much as an infrastructure Deployer. So continuous delivery is more of infrastructure notice notion, progressive delivery, feature flags, those types of things, or app level, concepts, minimizing the blast radius of your, the new features you're deploying, that type of stuff, I think begins to speak to the pain of application delivery. So I'll guess I'll put this up. Michelle, I might aim it to you, and then we'll go around the horn, what are your thoughts on the progressive delivery area? How could that potentially begin to impact cloud native over 2020? I'm looking for some rallying cries that move up the stack and give a set of best practices, if you will. And I think James Governor of RedMonk opened on something that's pretty important. >> Yeah, I think it's all about automating all that stuff that you don't really know about. Like Flagger is an awesome progressive delivery tool, you can just deploy something, and people have been asking for so many years, ever since I've been in this space, it's like, "How do I do AB deployment?" "How do I do Canary?" "How do I execute these different deployment strategies?" And Flagger is a really good example, for example, it's a really good way to execute these deployment strategies but then, make sure that everything's happening correctly via observing metrics, rollback if you need to, so you don't just throw your whole system. I think it solves the problem and allows you to take risks but also keeps you safe in that you can be confident as you roll out your changes that it all works, it's metrics driven. So I'm just really looking forward to seeing more tools like that. And dashboards, enable that kind of functionality. >> Chris, what are your thoughts in that progressive delivery area? >> I mean, CNCF alone has a lot of projects in that space, things like Argo that are tackling it. But I want to go back a little bit to your point around developer dopamine, as someone that probably spent about a decade of his career focused on developer tooling and in fact, if you remember the Eclipse IDE and that whole integrated experience, I was blown away recently by a demo from GitHub. They have something called code spaces, which a long time ago, I was trying to build development environments that essentially if you were an engineer that joined a team recently, you could basically get an environment quickly start it with everything configured, source code checked out, environment properly set up. And that was a very hard problem. This was like before container days and so on and to see something like code spaces where you'd go to a repo or project, open it up, behind the scenes they have a container that is set up for the environment that you need to build and just have a VS code ID integrated experience, to me is completely magical. It hits like developer dopamine immediately for me, 'cause a lot of problems when you're going to work with a project attribute, that whole initial bootstrap of, "Oh you need to make sure you have this library, this install," it's so incredibly painful on top of just setting up your developer environment. So as we continue to move up the stack, I think you're going to see an incredible amount of improvements around the developer tooling and developer experience that people have powered by a lot of this cloud native technology behind the scenes that people may not know about. >> Yeah, 'cause I've been talking with the team over at Docker, the work they're doing with that desktop, enable the aim local environment, make sure it matches as closely as possible as your deployed environments that you might be targeting. These are some of the pains, that I see. It's hard for developers to get bootstrapped up, it might take him a day or two to actually just set up their local laptop and development environment, and particularly if they change teams. So that complexity really corralling that down and not necessarily being overly prescriptive as to what tool you use. So if you're visual code, great, it should feel integrated into that environment, use a different environment or if you feel more comfortable at the command line, you should be able to opt into that. That's some of the stuff I get excited to potentially see over 2020 as things progress up the stack, as you said. So, Michelle, just from an innovation train perspective, and we've covered a little bit, what's the best way for people to get started? I think Kelsey covered a little bit of that, being very pragmatic, but all this innovation is pretty intimidating, you can get mowed over by the train, so to speak. So what's your advice for how people get started, how they get involved, et cetera. >> Yeah, it really depends on what you're looking for and what you want to learn. So, if you're someone who's new to the space, honestly, check out the case studies on cncf.io, those are incredible. You might find environments that are similar to your organization's environments, and read about what worked for them, how they set things up, any hiccups they crossed. It'll give you a broad overview of the challenges that people are trying to solve with the technology in this space. And you can use that drill into the areas that you want to learn more about, just depending on where you're coming from. I find myself watching old KubeCon talks on the cloud native computing foundations YouTube channel, so they have like playlists for all of the conferences and the special interest groups in CNCF. And I really enjoy talking, I really enjoy watching excuse me, older talks, just because they explain why things were done, the way they were done, and that helps me build the tools I built. And if you're looking to get involved, if you're building projects or tools or specs and want to contribute, we have special interest groups in the CNCF. So you can find that in the CNCF Technical Oversight Committee, TOC GitHub repo. And so for that, if you want to get involved there, choose a vertical. Do you want to learn about observability? Do you want to drill into networking? Do you care about how to deliver your app? So we have a cig called app delivery, there's a cig for each major vertical, and you can go there to see what is happening on the edge. Really, these are conversations about, okay, what's working, what's not working and what are the next changes we want to see in the next months. So if you want that kind of granularity and discussion on what's happening like that, then definitely join those those meetings. Check out those meeting notes and recordings. >> Gotcha. So on Kelsey, as you look at 2020 and beyond, I know, you've been really involved in some of the earlier emerging tech spaces, what gets you excited when you look forward? What gets your own level of dopamine up versus the broader community? What do you see coming that we should start thinking about now? >> I don't think any of the raw technology pieces get me super excited anymore. Like, I've seen the circle of around three or four times, in five years, there's going to be a new thing, there might be a new foundation, there'll be a new set of conferences, and we'll all rally up and probably do this again. So what's interesting now is what people are actually using the technology for. Some people are launching new things that maybe weren't possible because infrastructure costs were too high. People able to jump into new business segments. You start to see these channels on YouTube where everyone can buy a mic and a B app and have their own podcasts and be broadcast to the globe, just for a few bucks, if not for free. Those revolutionary things are the big deal and they're hard to come by. So I think we've done a good job democratizing these ideas, distributed systems, one company got really good at packaging applications to share with each other, I think that's great, and never going to reset again. And now what's going to be interesting is, what will people build with this stuff? If we end up building the same things we were building before, and then we're talking about another digital transformation 10 years from now because it's going to be funny but Kubernetes will be the new legacy. It's going to be the things that, "Oh, man, I got stuck in this Kubernetes thing," and there'll be some governor on TV, looking for old school Kubernetes engineers to migrate them to some new thing, that's going to happen. You got to know that. So at some point merry go round will stop. And we're going to be focused on what you do with this. So the internet is there, most people have no idea of the complexities of underwater sea cables. It's beyond one or two people, or even one or two companies to comprehend. You're at the point now, where most people that jump on the internet are talking about what you do with the internet. You can have Netflix, you can do meetings like this one, it's about what you do with it. So that's going to be interesting. And we're just not there yet with tech, tech is so, infrastructure stuff. We're so in the weeds, that most people almost burn out what's just getting to the point where you can start to look at what you do with this stuff. So that's what I keep in my eye on, is when do we get to the point when people just ship things and build things? And I think the closest I've seen so far is in the mobile space. If you're iOS developer, Android developer, you use the SDK that they gave you, every year there's some new device that enables some new things speech to text, VR, AR and you import an STK, and it just worked. And you can put it in one place and 100 million people can download it at the same time with no DevOps team, that's amazing. When can we do that for server side applications? That's going to be something I'm going to find really innovative. >> Excellent. Yeah, I mean, I could definitely relate. I was Hortonworks in 2011, so, Hadoop, in many respects, was sort of the precursor to the Kubernetes area, in that it was, as I like to refer to, it was a bunch of animals in the zoo, wasn't just the yellow elephant. And when things mature beyond it's basically talking about what kind of analytics are driving, what type of machine learning algorithms and applications are they delivering? You know that's when things tip over into a real solution space. So I definitely see that. I think the other cool thing even just outside of the container and container space, is there's just such a wealth of data related services. And I think how those two worlds come together, you brought up the fact that, in many respects, server-less is great, it's stateless, but there's just a ton of stateful patterns out there that I think also need to be addressed as these richer applications to be from a data processing and actionable insights perspective. >> I also want to be clear on one thing. So some people confuse two things here, what Michelle said earlier about, for the first time, a whole group of people get to learn about distributed systems and things that were reserved to white papers, PhDs, CF site, this stuff is now super accessible. You go to the CNCF site, all the things that you read about or we used to read about, you can actually download, see how it's implemented and actually change how it work. That is something we should never say is a waste of time. Learning is always good because someone has to build these type of systems and whether they sell it under the guise of server-less or not, this will always be important. Now the other side of this is, that there are people who are not looking to learn that stuff, the majority of the world isn't looking. And in parallel, we should also make this accessible, which should enable people that don't need to learn all of that before they can be productive. So that's two sides of the argument that can be true at the same time, a lot of people get caught up. And everything should just be server-less and everyone learning about distributed systems, and contributing and collaborating is wasting time. We can't have a world where there's only one or two companies providing all infrastructure for everyone else, and then it's a black box. We don't need that. So we need to do both of these things in parallel so I just want to make sure I'm clear that it's not one of these or the other. >> Yeah, makes sense, makes sense. So we'll just hit the final topic. Chris, I think I'll ask you to help close this out. COVID-19 clearly has changed how people work and collaborate. I figured we'd end on how do you see, so DockerCon is going to virtual events, inherently the Open Source community is distributed and is used to not face to face collaboration. But there's a lot of value that comes together by assembling a tent where people can meet, what's the best way? How do you see things playing out? What's the best way for this to evolve in the face of the new normal? >> I think in the short term, you're definitely going to see a lot of virtual events cropping up all over the place. Different themes, verticals, I've already attended a handful of virtual events the last few weeks from Red Hat summit to Open Compute summit to Cloud Native summit, you'll see more and more of these. I think, in the long term, once the world either get past COVID or there's a vaccine or something, I think the innate nature for people to want to get together and meet face to face and deal with all the serendipitous activities you would see in a conference will come back, but I think virtual events will augment these things in the short term. One benefit we've seen, like you mentioned before, DockerCon, can have 50,000 people at it. I don't remember what the last physical DockerCon had but that's definitely an order of magnitude more. So being able to do these virtual events to augment potential of physical events in the future so you can build a more inclusive community so people who cannot travel to your event or weren't lucky enough to win a scholarship could still somehow interact during the course of event to me is awesome and I hope something that we take away when we start all doing these virtual events when we get back to physical events, we find a way to ensure that these things are inclusive for everyone and not just folks that can physically make it there. So those are my thoughts on on the topic. And I wish you the best of luck planning of DockerCon and so on. So I'm excited to see how it turns out. 50,000 is a lot of people and that just terrifies me from a cloud native coupon point of view, because we'll probably be somewhere. >> Yeah, get ready. Excellent, all right. So that is a wrap on the DockerCon 2020 Open Source Power Panel. I think we covered a ton of ground. I'd like to thank Chris, Kelsey and Michelle, for sharing their perspectives on this continuing wave of Docker and cloud native innovation. I'd like to thank the DockerCon attendees for tuning in. And I hope everybody enjoys the rest of the conference. (upbeat music)