>>Mm. >>Amdocs is a leader in providing software and services to some key industries, like telecommunications, media and financial services. In our next session, >>we >>welcome Cedric Jay Gould, who is the head of technical product at Amdocs. And we'll learn about Amdocs modernisation journey and how it added value for their end customers. Cedric. Welcome. >>Welcome. Good. >>Thank you. So describe your modern application, your portfolio, and you know what you're delivering for customers. >>So home dogs is B s s S s players who we are providing a food digital suite for customers. Uh, our customers are communication service providers, which are have to deploy a full digital sweets customer experience. Um, we're for the full os BSS, BSS tax. So, actually, Amdocs is one of the leader in this kind of digital transformation. >>So of course you talk about this as and BS. I mean, you're talking about some really hardened, uh, stacks, right? Uh, telco industry. Uh, say what you want about it, but, boy, the phone works when you dial it. So So you've got this sort of a decades old, you know, platform that you guys have been evolving over the over the years. described this modernisation journey and and the role that couch base played. What value does this offer This modernisation offer to your organisation. And where does Couch based fit? >>Yeah, exactly the same. So that so. Basically what, uh, all solution is You know, it's a broad for you of a large number of components which have to deal with funds, uh, experience of the user and from and then dealing all the, uh, activation of the services in the network in order to deliver a solution, Uh, your services, like mobile services or communication services to, uh, Susan users. So we have a full suites, which, uh, was previously based on, you know, on technology is based on the oracle with web logic and things like that. And what we did is that we do a modernisation of, uh, this something, like, six years ago. A bit more than six years ago. We start to modernisation and transformation of our product into a creative solution. Collaborative solutions. So, uh, and when we did that, we start with Coach base as a partner, uh, to provide the nominative database. So we are actually delivery. We have a guarantee of more than 8000 people developing this product. It's a product which is used by more than 300 customers. Uh, so So it's it's real product that needs to be very flexible. That needs to address many kind of use cases from, uh, Telco or customers, which RCs PS usually till 0 to 1 telco. So we what we wanted to build is a food creative solution that can work on any cloud, then can can skill very, very easily and can address multiple use cases. Okay, And that's why, Coach Base, when we selected Coach Basit, it matched a lot of requirements and criteria as we had. And when we decided to modernise our product, we decided to work with >>you. So you had a lot of experience and and legacy with Oracle and Web logic. I'm curious just to follow up. Why didn't you stay with Oracle? You mentioned? Gotta run any cloud. You gotta be flexible. But could you could you double click on what Couch based delivered from a requirement standpoint, that was such a good fit? >>Well, there's there's a good fit with technology that such as, uh, coach basis. First it's a noise school detonates, right? So it's in terms of performance for some of the youth case that we have. It's very important to have, you know, technology which are are done and optimised for the noise secure use cases. That's the first thing. The second thing as I mentioned the scalability, the fact that you can, almost indefinitely infinitely you can increase the size of your cluster. You can have more, uh, servers and and and And this will skill, you know, very rapidly. And also what we're very interesting to have from coach bases the ability to have something which can be replicated across multiple sites. So with visual technology from coach base, which enable to build, you know, very modern architecture with deployment on multiple agents to have disaster recovery, active, active sites, you know, things like that which are very becoming like the main requirement for more customers now. >>Okay, so I'm presuming there were parts of your application portfolio that you weren't gonna touch and throw away that you had to collect or connect the new with the old. That's always, you know, you know, a challenge. I'm wondering what advice you give to an organisation. That's kind of investing in a similar path, trying to deliver the best digital experiences to customers. You know what? What would you say are the modernisation you gotta have must have, whether it's architecture, internal culture, what are some of those items? >>So so that yes, you're right. I think the integration with the legacy systems is actually, you know, very, very important topic in all domain in the domain. But we we made a very, uh, will see drastic choice or brave choice choice. When, uh, 60 years from now, when we decided to reformat to re platforms are completely or portfolio. Okay, So we we changed more than 95% of our portfolio and 95% of the portfolio today, Arklow native. Which means that they can be deployed on any cloud that actually, they are fully scalable and and and still, we did this transformation. Now, when we do the digital transformation of the, uh, customer system, then we need to integrate with legacy systems, and we need to help our customers to migrate from the legacy systems to creative solutions and doing so, it's important to have in the database domain. It's very important to have a solution which is very flexible in terms of, uh, what kind of data I can manage. And I can, as I said, skill easily, for sure. But also, it's sexual. Okay, Because when you are moving the data from a legacy system or record based or whatever to, uh, another type of, uh, database, you want to be sure that you are you can do it securely, and you're you're not, uh, compromising in any sense, Uh, in terms of security scalability, uh, etcetera. Right. So So, um, in this case, I mean, I will say And then in this opportunities journey, uh, this was very, very, very, very important component in, uh, you know, in our strategy, for all the reasons I mentioned right, it's very coordinative. It's scalable, It's secure. Uh, it's another product, uh, grade. So? So that's that's why it really is. So there's there's a chest back to you. >>You know, this notion that 90 per you really re platform 90% of your portfolio and made a cloud native. That's that's a It's a brave move because a lot of companies do that that I've talked to. They will build an abstraction layer and microservices and make that piece cloud native and then have that kind of overlay. You decided not to do that. Why is that? Was that for performance reasons? You were worried about just bringing along technical debt. I mean, that really must have been an interesting discussion internally in your company. >>Yeah, it's true. I mean, the main motivation, the main driver was business flexibility. Because now we live in a world where our customers, what they need is to be able to test the new feature quickly. And they need to be able to scale the system in a matter of hours. Okay, so we are not in a domain anymore. Where you you when you have to upgrade something, you need to take a few days. It needs to be done in a very, very quickly. And the only way to achieve those, uh, requirements business requirements is to be creative. It's to build microservices and to really realise one of those per cent of, uh, micro services architecture because this is the only way you will have the business flexibility. You will be able to have a resilient architecture. Uh, you know, you can, uh you can deploy this with full high availability across multiple zones, multiple regions and feeling that so, uh, any modern architecture today that that is competing with us, Actually, a micro services based architecture. There is no other way to achieve, uh to to to meet the requirement of the market today, and especially when five g is coming, things will become much more complex. Will become much more, uh, distributed. Uh, you cannot work anymore with the model it architecture. And again, I think the database is nowhere different. Needs to follow the same kind of architecture needs to follow the same principles. So that's that's why am I mean another another point about Yeah, >>So if I If I summarised, it sounds like your top three requirements would be flexibility, which you're getting from the cloud native and microservices piece the scale and the security. Is that right? That I get that right? The three top >>That's right. And the resilience as well. I mean the fact that now you know, with micro services architecture, if one of the system is done, he knows how to self to restart it himself. Right itself. Sorry. So So that's this kind of architecture that we built. It's an architecture which can be resilient in a sense that it can sense itself, and it can ensure full availability. And if something is going down, is not working properly, then on some kind of mechanisms will happen in order to go back to a stable state. >>Yeah. So you've got that automation in there. So you don't doesn't require the labour that it might have 10 years ago. So you're obviously embracing cloud native microservices. So you're on that jury. I'm curious. What are you doing with that? You're you're freeing up. You guys used to bring in lab coats and dig in and figure out what's wrong or restart the system. Where are you in your journey, and how are you? Sort of reallocating those resources. And where do you see that going? >>Yeah, Okay, so that's that's a very good point. Because actually, we when we build this new system, which is unable to do, you know, to self heal himself, right? Uh, actually, the question was more about how we can improve the system, even know how we can be sure that, uh, you know, issues that we we any issues which we are we are facing will not happen again. Well, not actual again. Okay. And this is a, uh, principle. Okay, Practise that we have now people are walking on automation. They're building automation around all these recovery procedures about, uh, fixing. So they're not actually digging into the application now anymore into the system, they learn how the system is walking and buildings all the right automation task to ensure that the system is constantly, constantly resilient. Alright, so that's the necessary practises organisation is now built around. You know, this kind of this approach developed computer develops being fully a geologically having sa reorganisation SRE oriented organisation. And, uh and that's the only way you know you can reach very high, uh, in terms of availability. >>So the big problem that your traditional telco customers have is the amount of data that they're servicing going through the roof and the cost per bit is sinking like that. And you have all the over the top providers coming in creating these customer experiences with modern applications and they've owned the customer data. You mentioned five g. So I'm interested in what the future of modern apps looks like for Amdocs and your customers because five G gives your traditional telco customers the ability if they can have these flexible systems that you're providing to now have better relationships with customers and actually kind of reclaim, you know, some of that that value that they've lost to a lot of competitors, your thoughts on the future. >>So first, you know, technically speaking, we we we will have two challenges. One is about data, and other one is about distribution of the work. Okay, because when we are speaking about five g, we're speaking about the age. We're speaking about the fact that an application may be located very closely to the network because it needs to be to to achieve, you know, to to deliver a very short latency, and, uh and this application can move. Okay, so you you you you will have to be able to distribute completely your your solutions. Okay. And that's why we are working closely with, uh, club providers at the US as you Google and because we we need to be sure that the applications of the systems that we are building will be able to distribute the application as close as possible to the end users. Okay, so that's that's one of the key challenges. Which means that the application is to be very possible and he'd be very scalable, and then it needs to be able to move very quickly from one place to another. That's really what is what What, what? What is happening now and what will become, uh, with five G? The other challenge is behind the communication of all these components is really the data, because now we will capture more and more that are coming from the different systems. And I'm not speaking only about the consequence the customer that are who they are, what they what they like and what they want to do, etcetera. And speaking also about, uh, monitoring that of the systems. Okay, so we will generate a lot of information and this this information needs to be traded very quickly, needs to be stored in very large data lake, and we need to have extraction and manipulation of the data very, very quickly to to give the right information to the applications. Um, in this case, okay, it's very important to have application to have databases that can as I said, skill very quickly. But also we'll be able to have very ideal city note, you know, sense that they with a certain amount of memory or sentiment of storage, you can store a lot of data. And this is where we are always, you know, checking what is the best technologies. And so far, not coach bases, technologies that we're using for for stalking, storing all the data. Because because it's it's a ratio in terms of, uh, performance on the number of data you can store, Uh is very high. Okay, so that's that's another challenge that we're addressing. Of course, God is not the only solution, but it's another another one. >>Excellent. Okay, we're gonna leave it there. Cedric, Thanks so much. A great storey and really appreciate your insights. >>You're welcome. Thank you very much. >>Okay, that's it for today. I hope you've enjoyed the application. Modernisation summit made possible by Couch Base. We shared some fresh survey data and got the perspectives of three expert analysts. We got an outstanding roadmap from Ravi Meyer. Um, who's the CEO of Couch base? And of course, we got the customer angle from Cedric. So look, Maybe you're an organisation going through a modernisation initiative. And if you're thinking about what the future of applications looks like cheque out couch. Based on the road this summer, the application modernisation summit is hitting the road traversing North America and Europe. Find out where they will be where they will be near you by visiting couch based dot com slash roadshow. Ravi is gonna be there along with other thought leaders and peers who will be sharing learnings and best practises on how to modernise now and for the future. And you'll get a chance to interact with some of those piers, something that everyone I know is looking forward to. This is Day Volonte. Thanks for joining us today. And thanks for watching the Cube. Mhm. Yeah. Mm, yeah.

(upbeat music) >> Hello, and welcome to today's session of the AWS Global Public Sector Partner Awards. I'm delighted to introduce our next guests to highlight the award for Best Partner Transformation, Best Telco Solution, and of course, I'm your host Natalie Erlich for theCUBE. We are now joined by Avishai Sharlin Division President at Amdocs Technology, and Ralf Hellenbran, Program Director of Technology at Vodafone Germany. Thank you, gentlemen, for joining the program. >> Thank you for having us. >> Our pleasure. >> Let's have the opening question for both of you. You know, but let's first start with Avishai. What has been the highlight to date in the journey of both Amdocs and Vodafone? >> Well, it's a good question. I believe that the highlight was the teaming and getting things done together as partners. Unlike many previous experiences, this time, we understood that success equals us working hand in hand together, making sure that we overcome and achieve everything as true partners. So the greatest obstacles and also the biggest achievement were done together as one team. We always speak about the hurdles, we negotiate sometimes. But eventually, we're coming to the solution together, and making sure that everything is properly managed and properly done in the right timing, and according to plans. >> Terrific, well, Ralf, let's go to you. What do you see as the highlights of this collaboration. >> Now exactly what Avishai said, but let me add to that. What we are following is a real collaborative approach. Now, there's a lot of strengths in that approach. Because we are using for example, swarm intelligence, we are using elements, which you see in clouds attempts as well, for example, yeah, but you see it in agile attempts and agile working methods. And this is what we applied. And as Avishai said, we are doing that as real partners in the program. And we are pulling a lot of strengths out of that by detecting problems early, we have a high level of transparency, we put everything on the table, and differences that we do not fight about the problems. We work collaborative on the solution. And that's really kind of new to the industry we are working in. And that's kind of game changing for it. At the beginning, we said it will be game changing if it works. Now we see that it does. >> Terrific. Well, why do you think generally speaking, that the Telco industry has been so slow, to you know, embrace these kinds of innovations? Let's start with Avishai. >> Yeah. It's less about I think the actual technology, it's more about a handful of parameters that need to be aligned, once you are trying to address these big transformations. You need to upskill a lot of people, you need to educate your manpower, to new technologies and new ways and processes, how to embrace DevOps, how to work in a cloud environment, how to embrace an agile, safe methodology. So there are many small pockets of things that needs to be changed. Not a single element, actually is the same as like five years ago. So in a way, if the organization as a whole, is not being transformed, it's very tough to embrace all those new technologies and succeed in such a journey. So for us, and I think also to our partners in Vodafone, it was a mutual understanding that we need to not just work together, but also tackle the new technologies and methods and processes all together and change the entire organization and ecosystem in order to succeed. In many other cases in the industry, we see that some pockets are not being changed. And then even if the technology is right, you're missing the upscaling of people, if you upskill the people and you forgot the technology, and so on so forth. >> Perfect now, Ralf, I'd love for you to respond to that question as well. >> So the Telco industry is a quite complex industry, that you look to the product it seems to be quite easy. You pick up a phone and you do a phone call or you go to the internet and so on and so forth. But if you think of all the services, which you're using via your smartphone, for example, yeah, it's far away from just doing a phone call. So at the same time where the Telco industry is producing and selling products, it's producing and selling services. At the same time, while you're using it for leisure, you're also using it for emergency calls. So there's a high level of safety, which we need to bring, and we need to pair it with a lot of innovation elements, right, both together. Now, if you take all this and you think of the complexity, it's not easy to introduce new methods and new ways of working, etc, to such an industry, again you need to take two things into account, you need to make it very safe and stable and educated and controlled. And at the same time, you need to be very fast, because it's a fast moving industry. And both together explains how we adopt it and why sometimes we are a bit slower than others, because the trial and error, yeah, it's not that easy, because the error cannot be allowed in big scale. The more I'm happy that in the approach we're taking together with Amdocs and also AWS, we can apply these new methods while keeping the safety and stability. >> Terrific, well, thank you for outlining that safety methodology. Avishai, I'd like to move this back to you. How are you redefining this operation through DevOps and automation? >> Oh, that's an interesting question. I think that automation, needs to be baked into almost everything that we're doing in such a transformation. It's not from the basic technology stuff, but it goes into all the processes, the way you develop, the way you test. The way you deploy, the way later on, you're making sure that everything run in the right way. So automation is key fundamental element in the end to end journey of such a big transformation, especially if you're going into agile development, and you need to fail fast, react fast, change fast, and then continue onwards with a new solution. So first, as you rightfully said, it's automation. And DevOps is also key over here, because you need to make sure that what you develop is also something that you deploy in the right way. So you need to put in place all the right mechanism, such as (indistinct), and the cloud frameworks, and the relevant different technologies that are adhering into this end to end solution. >> Perfect, now, Ralf, what are your thoughts? How are you redefining the operation now through DevOps and automation? >> We are trying to solve the paradox. Again, the paradox is we want to have things very stable, that would dictate us to do very detailed plans and to adhere to it and so on this is what we did in the past, it fostered for example, taylorism, and similar things. Now, we want to go a step further, we want to apply agile methods, we want to dismantle the taylorism. And the techniques around DevOps, cloud operation, etc, agile methods help us to do that. Now, while we are transforming our way of working, we don't want to lose the good elements of what we have been doing before, we want to do a step forward and not at the same time step back. And therefore we are combining things. And automation, for example, is one way to do that. DevOps is another way to do that. We are joining the good thinking of operations and the good thinking of development together, and we are pulling additional strengths out of that, while not taking into account or taking on board the weaknesses of the former approach. So it's a stepwise transformation we are following. Automation helps us to focus on the real problems, and not on the things you can automate by technology. >> Terrific. Well, now Avishai, bringing this back to you, Ralf talks about agility and also DevOps, explain the journey today on such a large program. >> The the journey, in what sense? Can you give me some coloring? >> Yeah tell us about this collaboration and keeping that in mind, keeping in mind agility as well as DevOps. You know, the step by step process in developing such a large collaborative program. >> Thank you for clarification. So I think that the journey as a whole had several components, (indistinct) and myself also the beginning about the nature of being true partners here. But it is also about establishing something very new in the industry. Many of the things that we're working are, you know, the first time that we're doing agile manner of developing software and testing, it's so fast, it's the first time we're implementing the latest and greatest DevOps technologies. The first time, we're adhering into new standards and way and behavior from a modernized technology organization. So in a way, this journey is all about a mixture of innovation, new stuff, on one hand, aligned with a very, very tight in a good way, I would call it German engineering, in the sense of making sure the things are in place and making sure that the processes are well defined. And we're seeing at any given point, the different status we're in, what needs to be improved, what is going well, and what future lies ahead. >> Staying with that topic on the journey opening to both of you, and perhaps Ralf would like to jump in here, first, how have AWS technologies been featured as part of this journey. >> AWS has been chosen wisely by us because of its technology components brought to the table. Now, without now pointing to a particular service, which we are using, we talked about automation, we talked about DevOps, now everyone can itself about how AWS in general helps to foster that, the sheer fact that we can merge the different way of working with a different mindset of people working in our collaboration and technology components coming not only, but also from AWS, this is ensuring our success. If you would pull out one of these elements, yeah, out of the equation, that most probably it would not work. I have problems to rate which element is more important, they are all part of the puzzle and otherwise, you will not see the picture and create the picture. So in a nutshell, we are utilizing the AWS technologies in order to allow the speed of development, lots of first times which we have in our collaboration, and the AWS technologies are an essential part of that. >> Terrific and Avishai, what are your thoughts on that? >> I think that the collaboration with AWS goes in several, in a way different shapes and form. On the technology, pure technology level, we're utilizing native EKS, we're moving with the managed Kubernetes. We're using, you know the latest technology in databases, and many other very, very cool technologies coming from AWS. And on a different level, completely different level, I think that AWS understands the behavior of complex enterprise and are assisting us with programs, looking into well architected framework and how to work in a managed environment and what are the technologies that we need to utilize. And also in, from an Amdocs perspective, something that assisted us a lot in this journey, we have a unique technology which defines an end to end solution to development within a micro service cloud native environment, we'll call it M360. AWS assisted a lot in making this a mature technology and allowing us to develop faster and fully utilize the benefits of cloud native environments. >> Terrific, now to both of you, what do you see as the next step in your collaboration together? Let's bring this to Ralf. >> There is no distinct next step. And maybe this is the consequence of the way of working we have established. There are many small steps we will pursue and most probably, if you want to know, which are the next steps, you need to talk to our teams. This is another aspect of this new way of working, which we apply. The people working in that approach, they tell us how they construct, how they structure this approach. If I would summarize it, we are constantly tearing down the walls between the companies, between silos, between departments working in that collaboration, and we are getting more close together every day. And solving problems quicker, we are getting them quicker on the table, we are getting them quicker, and softer, faster, soft, and AWS, Amdocs are part of this. And this is really nice to see and be part of, that this is really happening. So the next step is, foster the collaboration. >> Avishai do you have any thoughts? >> Yeah, on a personal level, I think the next step would be to glide together in Europe. But on a more serious note, I think that this is becoming like a true partnership. And I think that I see a lot of empowerment coming from both sides, allowing the team to develop together, to think together and to start to create new stuff, that even if you plan ahead, you will never achieve without true collaboration. So this empowerment, the fact that the teams feel that they can do things on their own, and make one and one equals three, two, or you know, or seven, is the big change that I see in front of us. And I really feel it in the air. And I also feel it in in the way we act and we move forward. >> Yeah, so Ralf, how do you see that this program will enable continuous innovation? >> Oh, it does already. So if you're looking to big transformation programs of the past, (indistinct) beside the fact that lots of them actually did not achieve what they are, what they were asked to achieve. Usually big programs, do big plans, and then you have a very long period of preparation. And then usually you have a rather big bank or life and then everything shall be fun. That sometimes work but not most times, it's difficult. Now within our program, we are doing that in collaboration, but step by step by step. And it's more an evolution than a revolution, which we are doing. At least in the way we deploy things, again, we are back to DevOps, continuous integration, continuous deployment and so on all these elements, which you can see in these approaches. And this is where the wheel spinning slice. So it's evolving step by step. And it's bringing benefits step by steps. So the benefits are already in place into to a certain extent, and they're constantly growing. >> Terrific, Avishai, what are your thoughts? How do you see the innovation of being able to continue and even further? >> In a way we're in a world that everything is in continuum, so it's continuous delivery, and continuous development and also continuous innovation. As long as you know, the ecosystem of ours continues to innovate as a whole, we are part of it. And inevitably, we are part of the larger ecosystem on one hand, and also players within it on a smaller scale in this project and as organization. So I think innovation is baked into everything we're doing today. Sometime it's small incremental steps, sometimes it's big, innovative moves, but all in all, it's something that is currently part of our DNA. >> And how is this system helping you both you know, be more proactive? Either one of you who would like to go first? >> No, I started first. >> Avishai? Okay. So, we are data driven, we are way more data driven. And by knowing exactly what is happening, we can be faster, we can be more innovative, we can be more productive. So, in cases where we either discover a problem or we discovering opportunity, we are much faster in analyzing whether it's really one, how should we redirect on that? How can we solve it or utilize it? And that's really working well. >> Perfect. And, you know, Avishai, feel free to join in on that too. >> In the digitized economy, I think that productivity comes a lot from the business side. If there is something that completely changed lately is the fact that business people are driving many, many changes on one end, and technology is here to adhere on one end and flexible to to move forward. So many of the productive concepts are coming from non technology savvy people, and the ability of what we're doing together to adjust and support different business behaviors and business models, and also, you know, business initiatives is thought of as being productive and being able to adapt into the digitalized economy. >> Let me join in on that one, what Avishai said, Let's think of a business person who wants to change something, and you don't know whether it's a white way as a corporation. Now you bring in the technology bits and pieces from different angles, and all of a sudden, you can combine it with a data driven approach, then, you know much better how to react on this business demand and how to bring it to life by using technology. Yeah, that might be a very high level of example of what we're doing here. Again, collaboration, get it done together with is the theme of that, technology is a very important part of that, paired with the business. >> Yeah, we talked on some very broad terms like themes, collaboration, innovation, I just want to focus a bit now on automation. Why do you think it is so critical to the vision of this program, Avishai. >> First of all, because it ends with ation, and everything that has this, but what I think that we started with this, automation is fundamental to everything that needs to be nimble, everything that needs to be fast. You cannot do it manually. And if you want to react either to a business demand or to a data driven decision, analytic decision, if you want to adopt new technology, if you want to test a new business scenario or technology scenario, you need automation to be part, inevitable part of everything that you're doing. So automation is a key element in everything that we're doing. And it's critical part of also the way to look into the future and to make sure that everything is working the right way. >> Perfect Ralf, any quick thoughts on that? >> Actually, nothing, nothing to add. >> All right, terrific. Well, it's been so wonderful to have you on the program. I know people are coming in from all over the world to join us. Really fantastic opportunity to highlight this important innovation in the Telco sector. Glad to have you here. Ralf Hellenbran, Program Director of Technology at Vodafone Germany, as well as Avishai Sharlin, the Division President at Amdocs Technology. we're highlighting the award that they won as part of the AWS, Global Public Sector Partner Awards. So great to have you on the show. And I'm your host Natalie Erlich, do stay tuned for more coverage. (upbeat music)

(energetic instrumental music) >> Hey, everyone. Welcome to SiliconANGLE CUBE News here from Mobile World Congress. This is a Mobile World Congress news update. Dell in the news here partners with leading infrastructure companies, Dell Technologies, really setting up an ecosystem. Here, Dell, with leading telecom and infrastructure players accelerating the network adoption, announcing that it's launching the Dell's Open Telecom Ecosystem community. A community of multiple telecom partners and communication service providers aimed at becoming a unifying force in the telecom industry. This announcement comes just days after Dell introduced a host of new hardware, platforms designed to help the teleconference build cloud-native open radio network access, also called RAN architectures, using proprietary and sub-components for various suppliers. Dell's Open Telecom Ecosystem community has already partnered with Nokia, Qualcomm, Amdocs and Juniper Networks to create new offerings aimed at accelerating open RAN price performance for communication service providers. This includes creating a new virtual RAN offering using Open Telecom Ecosystem Labs, and as the center for testing and validation, building next-generation 5G virtualized distributed units and deploy and automated validated 5G-SA network with various partners across the ecosystem. Dell's promising that this is just the beginning of the collaboration with the telecom industry as it seeks to accelerate the adoption of 5G networking technologies and solve key industry challenges. More action's on the ground, go to thecube.net, theCUBE is broadcasting live for four days, Dave Vellante, Lisa Martin. I'm in the studios in Palo Alto bringing you the news. Lot of action happening, of course. Go to siliconangle.com to catch all the breaking news. We have a special report. We already got 10 plus stories already flowing. Probably have another 10 today. Day two tomorrow as MWC continues to power more news coverage for the edge and cloud-native technologies. (pensive ambient music)

>>Modernizing applications can be a complicated situation. For many folks, it's useful to have some best practices and tangible steps that can remove friction and yield some quick wins. We're now joined by couch based CTO, Ravi meam, who will cover how organizations can approach application modernization, what role the cloud plays and what you need to know about building a business case. Ravi, welcome back to the cube. Good to see you again. >>Very good to see you. Thanks for having me, Dave. >>Yes, our pleasure. Uh, according to a recent couch based digital transformation survey that you guys ran, it was about a 650 respondents, CIOs, CTOs, et cetera. The inertia of legacy technology held back according to the respondents, 82% of enterprises from modernizing their portfolios in 2021. So I wanna talk about the what and the why of modernization. Robbie, what does application modernization mean to you and why is it top of mind for organizations? >>Yeah, I think there have been multiple forces at work here for a while and they have all come to a tipping point with, uh, the pandemic and, uh, uh, it's a combination of factors and, uh, the legacy technologies were built for a different generation of applications. So it's a generational shift that we are undergoing. Uh, part of it is the, the consumption model, which is all cloud based and pay as you go kinda stuff. The other is edge is in the middle of a lot of these conversations together with, uh, the velocity variety, um, of data that you have to actually sort of consume and results that you need to produce. These were all not what the, sort of the, the infrastructure of hold on, which the applications were built on, uh, uh, stand for. So the infrastructure, the substrate requires modernization, uh, in order for the businesses to transform themselves, that's, what's going on. >>We call it digital transformation from a technology perspective, but it's businesses that are transforming, uh, the business models, uh, in front of our eyes. Uh, you know, we have seen the media go from, uh, set up boxes to streaming everywhere, um, like that every business eCommerce has changed, uh, the way we sort of, uh, do any business gaming has changed, uh, the, the banking industry, the healthcare, everything is changing, uh, in terms of the fundamental movement, if you, if you could, uh, sort of say that is to reach the consumer directly and sort of dis intermediate intermediaries. And in that process, the technologies that we had used to build the, the, you know, last previous generation of applications, no longer scale, no longer a nimble enough, uh, no longer cater to the modern, uh, the needs of the modern data and the infrastructure on which, uh, we are standing of these applications. So that's, what's driving the modernization effort. And, uh, in, in that, uh, you know, we have always started say that few years ago, that data is the new oil. Um, so that plays a very critical role in how the data silos and infrastructure that enterprises have is what's holding them back. And, uh, this whole effort is, uh, in, in, in terms of modernizing that infrastructure, uh, through the modern means of, uh, uh, the cloud computing, uh, the modern serverless architectures and microservices, and, uh, the edge and AI play play an important role in this. >>So we're gonna hear later from Amdocs, uh, about their modernization and where couch base helps and fits, but I'd love to hear your perspective as to how couch base helps organizations modernize. >>Right. I think one of the, uh, uh, fundamental things that has happened is that in the last 30, 40 odd years, the data infrastructure has sort of become, uh, a sprawl. Uh, we had built multiple systems, uh, uh, relational databases, cash is, uh, search systems, analytical systems, uh, all, uh, requiring for us to move the data, uh, from one system to the other, in order for you to get the value from those. And this is basically what we call as a data sprawl or database sprawl. And this leads to so many sort of, uh, downstream effects all the way from, uh, data not being available, uh, at the time when the engagement, uh, when the customer is engaged to data governance, security and all those issues, because the threat surface area is wide. And now you're putting all this infrastructure on the modern sort of cloud computing paradigm and, and the costs are sort of ballooning. >>And, uh, because those older infrastructures that were built, uh, when you deploy them on the cloud, uh, it, it creates its ads to the, uh, the complexity of this brawl and on top of the, the cost of this. So, uh, a system like couch base is what, um, uh, simplifies this brawl for, uh, our customers. And it is built for the modern, uh, sort of requirements of scale and performance, low latency, and the flexibility, uh, of being able to sort of not have to go through this whole sort of cycle of whenever you have to have a, a change in your application that touches your data, uh, that it, it actually creates a huge tool in those upgrades and all those life cycle having to CA carry pagers. Uh, I mean, that doesn't work anymore in these days of, I know, five, nine up times and, uh, 24 7, 365 availability of, uh, your services, uh, is so in that area is where couch base sort of helps, uh, our customers to modernize, uh, their sort of data infrastructure. >>It, uh, fuses, um, the multiple technologies that were spread across, uh, into one platform. So it gives a, a simpler programming paradigm, uh, that is one way to scale manage, administer, uh, patch, upgrade. All that mechanism is sort of not just thought through and automated, but it also sort of centralized this, uh, whole thing simplifies at the end of the day, uh, that total task of managing, uh, because that the volume of data that you have to manage now is, you know, orders of magnitude three to four orders of magnitude more than, uh, what it was just a few years ago. And, uh, so in that, uh, containing the sprawl, uh, agility of development, uh, are, are sort of, and the simplicity of deployment and management are some of the key capabilities that, uh, enterprises look to us to solve. And in that, bringing in all the way from cloud to multi-cloud to edge, uh, is how this sort of strategy evolves for enterprises. >>So square this circle for me, cuz in the panel we just had, there's a lot of agreement with what you just said, lift and shift of legacy platforms, doesn't work. Uh, it might work for the cloud vendor to get the data in the cloud, but it generally doesn't work for the customer. And you mentioned sprawl, we talked about this in the panel about, you know, data by its very nature is distributed. We talked about data mesh. There's a lot of skepticism around data mesh, but that that's cool. And you mentioned edge, so yes, I'm interested in the cloud's role here is the idea that you're actually putting all this stuff in one place. How does that fit with the edge? Maybe you could help us understand you're thinking of that and where the cloud fits. >>Yes. Um, you know, it's about, uh, centralizing a data up to a point and decentralizing it's in the magic of how you actually enable that. Um, uh, for example, just your traffic signal, your car, uh, or if you're on a cruise ship, each one is an edge, they all generate petabytes of data. And then you basically, uh, you can consume that, but if you're gonna stream all this data to a centralized place like a cloud that's, uh, you know, most of the data actually is not something that you're gonna store forever. Those are, you know, topical and that information is required at the edge. You should synthesize that information and take the noise from it and discard the signal. So that's where the edge, uh, typically the edge is not some, you know, personal device alone or uh, uh, or a IOT sensor sending data that is also, uh, sort of, uh, one, one element of the edge, but the edge is about decentralizing the cloud. >>So to say, so you can have mul your topologies of not having all your data sit in the cloud centralize someplace behind five firewalls. So when your application tries to reach that all the latency comes into place. So that's what you want to, uh, decentralize and have the data available as close to the engagement of the data with the consumer of it. So in that is the decentralization strategy where you can have multiple techologies, a three, a mesh, uh, however you choose to so that you get to get the data closest. Um, it could be a mobile device. Uh, it could be a, a smaller deployment of a server. It could be, uh, uh, a personal electronic device like watch, or it could be all the way in the IOT gateway. These are the various sort of decentralization of the data that has to happen. >>So it's about moving the data fastest. It's almost like CDN of the data is what, uh, sorry. Uh, for those it's, um, content delivery network is what CDN stands for, where we used to actually move static content in the good old days. That's what made, made our webpages faster. Now we can actually move live data that much faster by using replication technology. So when you move the data towards, towards the edge, what you're trying to do is bring that data closer, uh, to the compute where it's actually happening, as opposed to keeping the data centralized someplace back in the cloud and server and all your application logic is actually sitting on the device or on the edge. So you're constantly, uh, shoveling the data from the cloud to the edge, from edge to the cloud at the time of compute, as opposed to having it available at the time of, uh, um, the consumption of the data. >>That's where the paradigm, uh, shift is actually happening. And, uh, this basically is not about better user experience. It's also about backend networking, other costs that you can actually, uh, gain from, by not having to sort of repeatedly sort of shovel data back and forth. So that's stage strategy that, uh, enterprises are adopting. Now, this is become so to say core part of the architecture of modernization, uh, uh, in terms of where everybody can see this has to move to and, uh, our edge and mobile product, um, also plays a role in, uh, that's one of the other elements aspects of it that customers to look us, uh, look to us >>For. So it's a balance and couch base can play in both places. A lot of the data, if I heard you correctly at the edge is ephemeral, but if I want to do, you know, AI inferencing in real time, I gotta do it at the edge. I can't send it back to the cloud and, and, and do the modeling, you know, post-proces, that's not gonna work. All right, let's talk about the business case, you know, we've, we we've hit on the what and the why, but, you know, how does it get paid for companies sometimes struggle to plan for and budget appropriately for their outcomes? Yes. What do customers need to know about how do they get this past the CFO's office for, in the other business decision makers? >>I think there is an opportunity cost, uh, with the sort of lack of modernization, uh, if, uh, people are doing their classic sort of, so to say it style budgeting, uh, then it will just look like we have to modernize, uh, you know, some older infrastructure. It's not about that. It's about modernizing or making your business relevant, uh, to, uh, to the consumers, because the way consumers, uh, go about consuming your services now is very different from the way you had originally imagined and built for. And in that lies the, the, the transformation, uh, not to see this as a, it, uh, just as an it infrastructure modernization, but more from the standpoint of business transformation and, uh, the tooling that is required for this business transformation to be successful. So it requires the involvement of, um, not leaving it to just, you know, uh, uh, it oriented sort of, uh, uh, thinking of modernizing, but from the standpoint of looking at the, the, the business and what are the transformations that they need to, if they don't keep up with the Jones, they, in this digital divide, they may find themselves in the sort of either the wrong side or in the chasm. >>So I think that mindset, uh, that I was, uh, sort of in addition to sort of, uh, it pushing for this, uh, it's got to have a C-suite, uh, sponsorship understanding and, uh, sort of champion of this, then those initiatives will succeed because, uh, it's not just the technology transformation. It is accompanied by business and sort of, so to say cultural transformation inside the enterprise. >>Yeah. And it's interesting in the survey, it was very much it, you know, survey, I get that and, and the, it pros, the CIOs, et cetera, felt that, that, that, that the it organization was largely responsible for the digital strategy. And I think that was largely a function of, we just came out of the, the pandemic or Hopely coming out of the pandemic. And so they had all these tactical needs, but now you're saying step back, align with the business, make sure the C suite's involved, and that's gonna reduce the friction of, of getting this stuff paid for. >>Correct. And, you know, the, uh, this observation was also there. If you, I must have noticed that, you know, many, uh, of these sort of transf strategies, if you just leave it to like an it thing, they end up being reactive. Uh, but the proactive strategies are the one that actually, uh, succeed because they understand that this is a sort of enterprise transformation. It could be disruptive. Uh, it is what is required for the enterprise to get to the, uh, to the next level, uh, or to be, uh, in this, to be relevant in this sort of modern economy, if you would. So I think that is what, uh, what people are reacting to is the fact that this pandemic has pushed people to modernize quickly. And that may have happened as a reaction to the reality of the situation, but more and more, uh, uh, even among these strategies and more and more initiatives that people are taking, they may have sort of a longer term sort of thinking in this, uh, that requires the, uh, definitely without it's not gonna succeed and they're gonna be in the middle and they'll be, uh, in the forefront of many technology decisions that we have to make, but having a, a C-suite level sponsorship. >>In addition to that, with the impetus of what is the business transformation, this is actually going to achieve, um, those you will see will succeed a lot more because otherwise you, we see that, you know, good, good number of what 80% of these projects fail or, or, or they suffer delays or scale back or never get started, uh, because, you know, uh, the understanding of what is the business value of it is perhaps not, not clearly articulated instead, it just becomes a, a technology modernization conversation without that company benefit. >>Yeah. Got it. Okay. Uh, you guys recently announced some updates to your platform. Can you run us through the, the highlights, you know, what the customers get and, and how it relates to this conversation modernizing application strategies? >>Yes. So, uh, well, we will be, uh, releasing our couch base server 7.1. And, uh, that is what will be the sort of underneath platform for our, the couch base, uh, Capella, which is the, our DBA both, uh, have exciting innovations, um, that we would be putting out. Uh, let me just run through a few things, uh, on the, uh, uh, couch based server seven one, because there are some, uh, amazing, uh, capabilities we have introduced there. We are really excited about the opportunities. This brings couch based into play. Uh, first is we have a, uh, a brand new storage engine that we put in there, which, uh, significant significantly, uh, reduces the, uh, the cost of running couch base. Uh, with this capability, we can actually consume lot less memory and that's, that is like a 10 X improvement on this one. So from that standpoint, we are 10 X more efficient in terms of resource consumption, the expensive memory oriented resource consumption. >>This now allows couch based to sort of not just cater to those high performance, um, you know, hyperscale scenarios that we are known for, but also the more, the classic BIS oriented, uh, applications, which are not that performance sensitive, but they're more cost sensitive. So that's a huge, uh, step forward for couch base because there are a lot more, uh, opportunities where sort of, we become, uh, that much more, uh, cost efficient for enterprises to run. And this is something that, uh, many enterprises have asked for, and we know, uh, many more use cases where we would be more relevant with that innovation. And this has been a, a sort of a long journey building storage engines is, uh, you know, uh, is a very difficult Endover. And we took that on knowing that, uh, what we can achieve here would be a game changer, uh, for couch base. >>And in terms of how, uh, uh, the consolidation of multiple things that you can do in our platform just got this sort of boost of being able to do a lot more with lot less resources. In addition to that, we have done enhancements to our analytics service, uh, with, uh, the work that we have done there. Uh, it, it can sort of do a lot more, um, uh, availability, uh, of the, of, of the analytics service, uh, which, uh, will strengthens the analytics side of the product, which now allows you to run analysis O on J O uh, straight up without requiring the operational side of the, uh, the database. So you can just simply do, uh, straight off analytics stuff, because it, it, it can now, uh, give you the higher availability and disaster recovery that you would want if you're gonna depend on these, uh, systems with that, we are done over some, uh, real good work with Tableau integration, which makes it easy to visualize this, um, uh, uh, and, uh, one other important capability we introduce here is the, um, on, in the entire platform is what we call as user defined functions. >>This now allows us to write custom logic and Java script in the server couch based server. This is, this helps you write procedural logic in the middle of, uh, SQL queries, which is a humongous capability that, you know, and the classical systems process. Now, with that, we have closed the gap. If you know, how to program to sort of classical operational systems, pretty much, you have one to one equivalence of that, uh, in couch. So if you come from the good relational world, uh, it would be very easy breeze for you to understand how to program in this modern, no SQL systems, which both supports, um, uh, SQL as well as the classic asset transaction capabilities. And last, uh, we expanded the support two arm processors, and typically, uh, arm processes, at least save you quarter of, uh, your budget because of it being that much more, uh, uh, cost efficient in terms of, uh, its operational and power capabilities. >>So with that net net, uh, couch based server becomes a lot more, um, uh, cost efficient. And at the same time, it also in one, well becomes that database server, which can both handle your in memory, uh, capabilities that, that speed and hyperscale, as well as, uh, the classical use cases of being, uh, disk, uh, disoriented, uh, classical relational database use cases. Nice. So that, that, that rounds out our offering, it's been a long journey for us to get here from being the high performance, uh, low latency system to, uh, the classical database use case >>Assessment. Yeah. I mean, that's great. You got, you got memory optimization, you mentioned the, the, the, the arm base. Now you're on that curve, which is great software companies love when you get cheaper, faster hardware, uh, you making it easy to speak the language of, you know, traditional stuff. So that's awesome. Um, you and I, you mentioned, uh, Capella, you and I talked about, yes, at couch base connects Capella. You've been moving hard with your DBA strategy, how's it going? And then beyond these announcements, what's what should we look for from couch base? >>You know, uh, our fundamental, uh, mission is to make the developer experience, um, that much more easier, that much, uh, to move all the frictions that, that has existed for developers to adopt couch base. And, uh, the Capella strategy is to leverage the cloud. So you have number one, the ease of development, just bring your browsers, start to learn, develop even simple sample applications and deploy them from there. You can scale, and you can have production level deployments, that whole journey of a developer, along with the ability to sort of have your a, you know, metered billing and pay as you go, uh, uh, pricing, uh, so that it becomes easier for developers to sort of consume this and, uh, show the value of what they can build here. That is our, um, sort of journey of bringing it closer, uh, to our developers and make it simpler for them to sort of, uh, get started and build the, the mission critical applications that they have trusted to build on couch base, to become that much more simpler, faster, and easier for them. So that's the journey. So that's the kind of announcements you will see coming out in Capella. And for that this, this seven one server is, is the platform on which we, we are sort of adding those capabilities to make a Capella that much easier for developers to adopt >>Outstanding. You've been busy and it looks like you've got a lot of value. Yes. All right, we're gonna have to leave it there. Robbie, up next, we bring on the customer perspective with Amdocs. They've got a real world example of a modernization journey that they go through. They had to modernize legacy Oracle WebLogic infrastructure with a microservices architecture, and of course, couch base, keep it right there. You're watching the cube.

(upbeat music) >> theCUBE's back on day three here in Cloud City Mobile World Congress. This is where all the action is, and this is theCUBE set. I'm John Furrier with Dave Vellante. We're here with DR, Danielle Royston, who is the CEO of TelcoDR, as well as the CEO of Totogi. Great to see you again. >> Hey. >> Hey, how are you guys? >> Good. >> Great time, great boat last night, good industry executives. A lot of intimate high player, big players here in the industry, even though not a lot of attendance, but the right people are here and events are back. >> Yeah. Yeah. I think, MWC was the first event to cancel with COVID in February, end of February 2020. So first big event to come back. It's such a nice symmetry. Yeah. Typically you have big delegations, hundreds of people from the big groups coming to the show. We're seeing the executives are coming, smaller delegations, but they're all in the booth and that we're having great conversations and it's awesome. >> Yeah, and the thing I will say is that theCUBE's back too. We'd like them to be, be in here in the action, because one of the things that's happened with this hybrid events is that people are watching. And so there's a virtual space and the physical space and Cloud City has built out paradise. It's beautiful and spectacular behind us. If you look around, for the people who can't see, it's really made for the combination of on-site and virtual experience, the content, the people, Bon Jovi last night, it's just the top of Mobile World Congress and it's translating to the industry. This has been amazing. So congratulations. >> Thank you so much. >> Well. I got to say, you have a lot to say as we all know. >> Danielle: Yeah. >> But I think it was easy for the big guys. >> Danielle: Can't shut me up. (laughing) >> That's why we love you in theCUBE. But I think it was easy for the big guys to tap out and say, hey, we can save a bunch more money. >> Danielle: Yeah. >> We don't really have much to talk about. We're going to talk about it again. Hey, let's talk about 5G. >> Yeah, yeah, exactly. >> 5G's coming. >> It's the revolution. >> And I told you about 5G though. >> Whereas the narrative here is all about the future. And it's not about the future of blah blah blah, it's about the future of, this is the journey that we're taking and here's where it's starting and with the meat in the bone. >> Yeah. And I think what's really interesting about Cloud City is the fact that we've brought these different players together that are all focused, as you said, on the future. And I'm starting to see these connections where they're collaborating. Vendors that didn't know each other probably would never have partnered before. Totally different areas. I'm hearing the conversation in the booth about like, hey, I talked to P1 security, or I went and talked to LMX and we're putting deals together 'cause we're complimentary. And it's amazing and so that's really good. >> And the integration partnership, heard that from Google yesterday on our news exclusive break in there. They see integration and they're talking about Android, with what Android did for mobile. They're seeing a whole new software paradigm coming into telco. Its partnership, its ecosystem and open. These are new kind of dynamics. >> And I think for you guys, when you say integration and open, I think those things are really paired and they're important. A lot of times Telco people will hear integration, and they'll think customization. Coding it up and customizing it so that they talk to each other. But I think the open part of that is really important where we're connecting via APIs. And I think that's bringing the hyperscalers. That's what they do. They provide these systems and the software that's all API based and you can use it very quickly and you can unravel it if you need to. And it's that feature velocity, we talked about a couple days ago. >> And automation is the underpinning. >> Yeah, yeah. >> I mean, that's really the theme, right? >> Right. >> It's not like a one-off hardcore custom integration that's going to be frozen. >> One time to upgrade it every 18 months or whatever it is. Yeah, it's a life. >> Dave: How about Musk yesterday? >> John: I mean, he's always a crowd pleaser. First of all, my kids love him. He's crazy. >> Who doesn't love Elon Musk? >> I mean, he is amazing. He's a builder and he takes no prisoners. He's just, you know what, my goal was not to go bankrupt. That's what he said a couple of years ago. >> Dave: Which was brilliant because everybody's gone bankrupt in that business and he's just close it off. >> And he's just like, look, we're here, we're just going to chip away at it and we're just going to keep striving, not making up excuses. He takes the failures. He takes the phase plans. He gets back up and he keeps going. He's focused on building. >> He's focused on one thing. He's not focused on everything. He's focused on getting to Mars. And I think that's what I like to compare myself to Elon Musk. Not that I'm building rockets or getting to Mars, but that the hard problem that I'm solving is getting Telco to the public cloud and that's going to take a decade. It might have been accelerated because of COVID, it might've taken 20 years and now it might take 10. But you look at what he does, and that guy, he has haters on Twitter that are pew- pew. Always like, throw in their bars, but he's like, I got my rocket company. I got my communication and space company. We're going to need the bore holes, the Boring Company. I need batteries, I got my Tesla company. And so this guy focuses. >> He's got some haters, but he's got a lot more lovers on his other side because people might not know this, but he fired the entire PR department because he's like, I don't need PR. I'm just going to go do my own, his own PR. >> Obviously, the crypto stuff's always fun. Doge coins, always a laugh. >> Danielle: I think he just plays around with that. >> And it's just more of like playing. >> Yeah, that's a watch this. >> He just likes to see what he can do. >> Doge coins app. That Saturday Night Live was an interesting thing he did, but I think he illustrates the point of a new generation. And I think my young kids, not young, they're in their twenties now. They look at him and they say, that's aspirational because he's building and he's focused on that one thing. And again, the growth that you mentioned Telco to the cloud, getting back to that is that, I want to ask you this growth question. It used to be like, okay, growth was there, people expanded cell towers, networks were networks. Now it seems that the growth of Telco, with Telco is going into, with the edge and all the open-RAN stuff, which means we need more infrastructure. >> Danielle: Yeah. >> We need more stuff. There's more needed and there's growth behind them. What's your reaction? >> I think we need more software. Software eats the world. And it's, I mean, there's a lot of hardware to chomp in Telco and it's just going to keep eating it and that's just going to accelerate. I think that's where Telco needs to start to build that muscle. They don't have great software capability. They don't have public cloud building capability. And so that's a big up-skilling. That's a new hiring. And I think it's an executive conversation. It's not just an IT thing or just a marketing thing or networking thing. >> I got to chime in here for a second because there are a lot of parallels with how the data center transition has occurred. And what's happening here. We talk about all the time. It was a mainframe, et cetera. There are parallels. >> Danielle: Yeah, yeah. >> And what happened when the data center went to software-defined a whole bunch of hardware was allocated to run all the software-defined stuff. It wasn't built for that. >> Danielle: Yeah. >> But the cloud, what you guys are doing with Totogi and taking advantage of AWS's is Nitro and Graviton. That's built to be software-defined. >> Correct. >> And so the Telcos are going to go through the same thing. If they just virtualize, they're going to say, oh wow, we're wasting 30% of our power, our compute power on just supporting all this software-defined stuff, because it wasn't built for that, but the cloud is built for that. >> Danielle: Yeah. >> And that is going to be a huge difference. >> And I keep trying to make this distinction. And I think people in Telco still don't get this about the public cloud. They think of it as a place. It's a place to run a workload. And that tells me, they think of it as infrastructure. They think of it as servers still like, well, I'm going to run into my closet or AWS's closet. I'm like, and I was just having a conversation about this with this senior person from GSMA. I'm like, it's actually about the software that's there. It's about the databases they're building and the analytics and the AI and the ML but they let you buy by the minutes or by the API call. And that is my, like you need to think about that because it's mind-blowing. It's a totally different way to think. >> And you're totally right. I'm just going to, again, give you props on this. I've had many one-on-one with Andy Jassy for the past seven years for exclusives, but over the years it's been consistent. Each platform lifting and shift wasn't the end game. Okay. Replatforming in the cloud, certainly a great advantage, a great starting point. It was the refactoring. And that's why you see Amazon Web Services, for instance, keep adding more services 'cause that's the model. >> Danielle: Yeah. >> They keep offering more goodness so that the businesses could refactor, not just replatform. >> Danielle: Yeah. >> And that's what you're getting at. I think with the AI and machine learning, where you start getting into these new use cases, but why I couldn't do that before. >> Danielle: Right, right. >> This is going to be a huge game changer. >> Well, Forrest Brazeal. A great guy, a cloud guru wrote a great blog called a lift-and-shift is a ticking time bomb. And it's a great start to get your stuff over there. It forces your team to start to interact with like an AWS or GCP in a real way. Like now they, they got to use it. You take it away and I'm like, but once you move it, you got to re-factor. You got to rewrite. And then that's why it's a ticking time bomb. You got to get, move it over and get going. >> Danielle Royston, DR, Digital Revolution of you are one. You got it here, Telco DR. And this has been a great experience for theCUBE, as we get back to business with real life events and virtual. For the folks who couldn't make it here, Barcelona is still a great city. Obviously a great place to come and the events will be back. They'll be hybrid. They'll be different. Certainly, theCUBE will wait double them down, but, we've got a great video. I want to share for the group, the Barcelona and Cloud City. This is a montage of what it's like here and a little experiential video. So take it away and run that video. (upbeat techno music) >> Hi, I'm Katie Goldfinch, here in Barcelona for an action packed Day Two at TelcoDR's Cloud City. This morning, the focus was firmly on DR. and her MWC keynote, which told Telco execs in no uncertain terms that now is the time to act on embracing public cloud. Back in Cloud City content ruled the day with both theCUBE and Cloud City live stages, hosting public cloud, thought-leaders covering a wide range of topics to educate and inspire attendees. And in the beautiful space of Cloud City, the excitement grew throughout the day as we streamed MWC's exclusive keynotes from Elon Musk and preparations got underway for tonight's star performer, Jon Bon Jovi. (upbeat techno music) Wow! What an amazing day from groundbreaking keynotes into space and back to a star studded performance. Don't forget, you can catch up on anything you missed and join us for the rest of the week at cloudcity.telcodr.com or following #cloudcity. (upbeat techno music) >> Okay, we're back. That was great look at what's going on here in Cloud City. This next video, DR, you're going to love this. Your keynote highlights and some Bon Jovi highlights, which by the way, was the most epic thing. People were packed. >> Dave: It was exciting. >> Place was packed. It had the security clicking people, counting all the people, people are standing back. All the people from their booths are all coming in to watch. >> Dave: He was pumped. >> Let's take a look at this awesome highlight video from yesterday. (upbeat techno music) (upbeat techno music) >> Okay, we're back at theCUBE. Dave, that was a highlight reel yesterday. DR has got some action on stage, great messaging, revolution, digital revolution. >> You know your comment about how you think like Elon Musk. That's an inspiration from it. I mean, what a lot of people don't know is when you look at autonomous vehicles, remember you're driving down Palo Alto, you see one of those lidar things. He's doing away with lidars, it's too expensive. It's $7,000. He's taking it with cheap cameras and software down to a couple of hundred bucks per vehicle. >> Danielle: Wow. >> That's the way he thinks. And you're doing the same thing to Telco. >> Danielle: I am. I am I'm trying to change Telco. I mean, he's changing the world. He might be one of the most important humans on Earth right now. I don't think I'm exactly that level, but I'm trying to become a really important person in Telco. We have this great message. I think it's going to help Telcos to get better businesses. And I think it's a great idea. >> For the folks out there watching, what is that big change? If you're going to drive down this Cloud City street, main street of Cloud City and just all about Cloud. Because public clouds here, it's going to become hybrid, dynamics, operating models are changing. What is the key message that you'd like to send? >> I think all of the software in Telco needs to be rewritten. And that's how many millions of lines of code is that? And it's going to be shrunk down and put out on public cloud and rewritten using the software Legos of the public cloud. That is a big undertaking. No one's working on it. I'm working on it. I'm doing it. Let's go do it. >> Let's do it. And if you look out a couple of years, what would be a successful, what does checkmate look like in this chess game? >> I'm winning? #winning >> You're opening move is pretty good as we say in chess. >> I mean, I think it, it takes, again, it takes singular focus like Elon Musk on Mars. Someone needs to singularly focus on getting the public cloud and you can't sit there and protect your old business models, your CR revenue, if you're Amdocs. Give that up. When they start to give up their CR revenue to focus on public cloud, then they'll be, okay, there's a worthy adversary out there really focusing on it. >> I mean the late Clayton Christensen had all the same things. Innovator's dilemma. You get stuck here, what do you do? >> Danielle: What do you do? >> You kill your own, you eat your own to bring in the new, I mean, all these things are going on. This is a huge test. >> And to be willing to burn some boats. >> I think it's transparency, simplicity, and the consumer saying, hey, this is a great experience. That's the Tel sign. >> Danielle: Yeah. >> And that's what we're going to see over this next decade. >> Plus consumers love their Telco. I can't wait for that. I want to love my Telco. >> Dave: Like you love Netflix. >> Yes, exactly. >> DR, we love you because you've got a bold vision. You're putting it out there and you're driving it. You're walking the talk. Congratulations. And again, Cloud City's a home run. >> Awesome. >> Great success. Thanks for having theCUBE. >> Thank you guys. As always super fun. Great day. >> Okay. >> CUBE's coverage here. And remember, we're here getting all the action and it's all going to go online after a synchronous consumption. But right now, it's all about Mobile World Congress and Cloud City. This is the action. And of course, Adam in Cloud City Studio is waiting for us and he's going to take it from here.

(cheery music) >> Thanks, Adam. Thanks for everyone in the studio. Dave, we've got some great main stage CUBE interviews. Normally we'll sit at the desk, and do a remote, but since it's a virtual event, and a physical event, it's a hybrid event. We've got two amazing Google leaders to talk with us. I had a chance to sit down with Amol who was gone yesterday during our breaking news segment. They had the big news. We had two great guests, Amol Phadke. He's our first interview. He's the head of Google's telecom industry. Again, he came in, broke into our segment yesterday with breaking news. Obviously released with Ericsson, and the O-RAN Alliance. I had a great chance to chat with him. A wide ranging conversation for 13 minutes. Enjoy my interview with Amol, right now. (cheery music) Well welcome to the CUBE's coverage for Mobile World Congress, 2021. I'm John Furrier, your host of the CUBE. We're here in person as well as remote. It's a hybrid event. We're on the ground at Mobile World Congress, bringing all the action here. We're remote with Amol Phadke, who's the Managing Director of the Telecom Industry Solutions team at Google Cloud, a big leader, and driving a lot of the change. Amol, thank you for coming on theCUBE here in the hybrid event from Mobile World Congress. >> Thank you, John. Thank you, John. Thank you for having me, So, hybrid event, which means it's in person, we're on the floor, as well as doing remote interviews and people are virtual. This is the new normal. Kind of highlights where we are in this telecom world, because the last time, Mobile World Congress actually had a physical event was winter of 2019. A ton has changed in the industry. Look at the momentum at the Edge. Hybrid cloud is now standard. Multi-cloud is being set up as we speak. This is all now the new normal, what is your take? And so it's pretty active in your industry. Tell us your opinion. >> Yes, John I mean the last two years have been seismic to say the least, right? I mean, in terms of the change that the CSP industries had had to do. You know, John, in the last two years, the importance of a CSP infrastructure has never become so important, right? The infrastructure is paramount. I'm talking to you remotely over the CSP infrastructure right now, and everything that we are doing in the last two years, whether it's working, or studying, or entertaining ourselves, all on that CSP infrastructure. So from that perspective, they are really becoming a critical national global information fabric on which the society is actually depending on. And that we see at Google as well, in the sense that we have seen up to 60% increase in demand, John, in the last two years, for that infrastructure. And then when we look at the industry itself, unfortunately all of that huge demand is not translating into revenue, because as an industry, the revenue is still flat-lining. In fact, the forecasted revenue for globally, for all the industry over the next 12 months is three to five per cent negative on revenue, right? So one starts to think, how come there is so much demand over the last two years, post-pandemic, and that's not translating to revenue? Having said that, the other thing that's happening is this demand is driving significant CapEx and OPEX investments in the infrastructure, as much as eight to $900 billion over the next decade is going to get spent in this infrastructure, from our perspective, Which means it's really a perfect storm. John, We have massive demand, massive need to invest to meet that demand, yet not translating to revenue, and the crux of all this is customer experience, because ultimately all of that translates into not having that kind of radically disruptive or transformational customer experience, right? So that's a backdrop that we find ourselves in the industry, and that really sets the stage for us to look at these challenges in terms of how does the CSP industry as a whole, grow top line, radically transform CSPCO, at the same time, reinventing the customer experience and finding those capital efficiencies. It's almost an impossible problem to find solution. >> It's a perfect storm. The waves are kind of coming together to form one big wave. You mentioned CapEx and OPEX. That's obviously changing the investments of their post-pandemic growth, and change in user behavior and expectations. The modern applications are being built on top of the infrastructure, that's changing. All of this is being driven by Cloud Native, and that's clear. You're seeing a lot more open kind of approaches, IT and OT coming together, whatever you want to do, this is just, it's a collision, right? It's a collision of many things. And this positive innovation coming out of it. So I have to ask you, what are you seeing as a solution that are showing the most promise for these telco industry leaders, because they're digitally transforming, so they got to re-factor their platforms while enabling innovation, which is a key growth for the revenue. >> Yes. So John, from a solution standpoint, what we actually did first and foremost as Google Cloud, was look at ourselves. So just like the transformation we just talked about in the CSP industry, we are seeing Google being transformed over the last two decades or so, right. And it's important to understand that there's a lot Google data over the last two decades that we can actually not externalize all of that innovation, all of that open source, all of that multicloud, was originally built for all the Google applications that all of us use daily, whether it's YouTube, or email or maps, you know. Same infrastructure, same open source, same multicloud. And we decided to sort of use the same paradigm to build the telecom solutions that I'm going to talk about next, right. So that's important to bear in mind, that those assets were there, and we wanted to externalize those assets, right. There are really four big solutions that are resonating really well with our CSP partners, John. You know, number one to your point, is how can they monetize the Edge? All of this happens at the Edge. All of this gets converged at the Edge. We believe with 5G acting as the brilliant catalyst to really drive this Edge deployment. CSPs would be in a very strong position, partnering with Cloud players like ourselves to drive growth, not just for their top line, but also to add value to the actual end enterprises that are seeking to use that Edge. Let me give you a couple of examples. We've been working with industries like retail and manufacturing, to create end solutions in a post-pandemic world. Solutions like contact-less shopping, or visual inspection of an assembly line in a manufacturing plant, without the need for having a human there, because of the digitalization of workforce. Which meant these kinds of solutions, can actually work well at the Edge driven by 5G. But of course they can't be done in isolation. So what we do is we partner with CSPs. We bring our set of solutions, and we actually launch in December 30 partners that are already on our Google Cloud Solutions. And then we partner with the CSPs based on our infrastructure, and their infrastructure to ultimately bring this all to life at the end customer, which often tends to be an enterprise, whether it's a manufacturing, plant, or a retail chain. >> Yeah, you guys got some great examples there. I love that Edge story. I think it's huge. I think it's only going to get bigger. I got to ask you while I got you here, because again, you're in the industry, you're the managing director, so you have to oversee this whole telecom industry. But it's bigger, it's beyond Telecom, where it's now Telecom's just one other Edge network, piece of the pie of the surety computing, as we say. So I got to ask you, one of the big things that Google brings to the table is the developer mojo, and opensource, and scale obviously. Scale's unprecedented, everyone knows that. But ecosystems are super important, and Telco's kind of really aren't good at that, right? So, you know, the Telco ecosystem was, I mean, okay, I'd say, okay, but mostly driven by carriers and moving bits from point A to point B. But now you've got a developer mindset, public cloud, developer ecosystem. How is this changing the landscape of the CSPs and how is it changing this cloud service provider's ability to execute, because that's the key in this new world? What's your opinion? >> Absolutely, John. So, there are two things, there are two dimensions to look at. One is when we came to market a couple of years ago with AnToks, we recognized exactly what you said, John, which is the world is moving to multi-cloud, hybrid cloud. We needed to provide a common platform that the developer community can utilize through microservices and API. And that platform had to by definition, work not just from Google Cloud, but any cloud. It could work on any public cloud, can work on CSP's private cloud. And of course, supports on some Google Cloud, right? The reason was, once you deploy and cause, once as a seamless application development platform, you could put all kinds of developer apps on top. So I just talked about 5G Edge John, a minute ago, those apps can sit on Antoks, but at the same time, IT to your point, John, IT apps could also sit on the same AnToks paradigm, and network apps. So as networks start becoming Cloud Native, whether it's SRAN, whether it's O-Ran, whether it's 5G core, same principle. And that's why we believe when we partner with CSPs, we are saying, "Hey, you give this AnToks to an ecosystem of community, whether that community is network, whether that community is IT, whether the communities Edge apps, all of those can reside seamlessly on this sort of AnToks fabric, John. >> Yeah, and that's going to set the table for multicloud, which is basically cloud words for multi-vendor, multi app. Amol, I've got to ask you while I have you here, first of all, thank you for coming on and sharing your insights. It's really great industry perspective. And obviously Google Cloud's got huge scale, and great leadership. And again, you know, the big, cloud players are moving in and helping out, and enabling a lot of value. I got to ask you, if you don't mind sharing, if someone asked you, "Amol, tell me about the impact that public cloud is having on the Telco industry." What would you say? What's the answer to that? Because a lot of people are like, okay, public cloud, I get it. I know what it looks like, but now everyone's knows it's going hybrid. So everyone will ask you the question, "What is public cloud doing for the telecom sector?" >> Yeah, I think it's doing three things, John, and great question by the way. Number one, we are actually providing unprecedented amount of insights on data that the CSPs traditionally already had, but have never looked at it from the angle we have looked at it. Whether that insights are at the network layer, whether those insights are to personalize customer experiences on the front-end systems. Or whether those insights are to drive care solutions in contact centers, and so on, and so forth. So it's a massive uplift of customer experience that we can help with, right. So that's a very important point, because we do have a significant amount of leadership, John at Google Cloud on analytics and data and insights, right? So, and we offer those roads to these people. Number two, is really what I talked about, which is helping them build an ecosystem, because let's take retail as an example. As a minimum, there are five constituents in that ecosystem, John. There is a CSP, there is Google Cloud, there's an actual retail store. There is a hardware supplier, there's a software developer. All of them as a minimum, have to work together to build that ecosystem, which is where we give those solutions, right? So that's the second part. And then the third part is, as they move towards Cloud Native, we are really helping them change their business model to become a DevOps, a Cloud Native mindset, not just a Cloud Native network or IP. But a Cloud Native mindset that creates unparalleled agility and flexibility in how they work as a business. So those are the three things I would say, as a response to that question. >> And also the retail's a great vertical for Google to go in there, given the Amazon fear out there. People want this for certainly low hanging fruit. I think the DevOps piece is going to be a big, winning opportunity to see how the developers get driven into the landscape. I think that's a huge point. Amol, that's really great insight. A final question for you, while I got you here. If someone says, "Hey, what's happened in the industry since 2019?" Last time we had Mobile World Congress, they were talking speeds and feeds. Now the world has changed. We're coming out of the pandemic. California is opening up. There's going to be a physical event. The world's going hybrid, certainly on the event, and certainly cloud. What's different in the telecom industry, from, you know, many, many months ago, over a year and a half ago, from 2019? >> I would say primarily, it's the adoption of digital everywhere, which previously, you know, there were all these inhibitions and oh, would this work? Would my customer systems become fully digital? Would I be able to offer AR VR experiences? Ah, that's a futuristic thing, you know. And suddenly the pandemic has created this acceleration that says, "Oh, even post-pandemic, half my customers are always going to talk to me, via our digital channel only." Which means the way they experience us, has to be through these new experiences whether it's AR VR, whether it's some other thing or applications. So that has been accelerated John, and the CSPs have therefore really started to go to the application, and to the services. Which is why you are seeing less on, you know, speeds and feeds because 5G is here, 5G's been deployed. Now, how do we monetize 5G? How can we leverage that biggest number? So that's the biggest- >> There's down stack, and then there's a top of the stack for applications. And certainly there's a lot of assets in the telecom landscape, a lot of value, a lot of refactoring going on, and new opportunities that are out there. Great, great conversation. Well, thank you, Amol Phadka, Managing Director, Telecom Industry Solutions. Thanks for comin' on the CUBE, appreciate it. >> Thank you, John. Thank you having me. >> Okay, Mobile World Congress here, in person, and hybrid, and remote. I'm John Furrier, host of theCUBE. Thank you for watching. We are here in person at the Cloud City Expo Community Area. Thanks for watching. Okay, that was us. That was me, online. Now, I'm here in person, as you can see Dave. That's a lot of fun. I love doing those interviews. So we had a chance to grab Google's top people when we could. They're not here, obviously. Amazon Web Services, Microsoft, and Google, the three hyperscalers, Dave, didn't make it out here. They didn't have a booth, but we had a chance to grab them. And that was head of the industry marketing, and I mean the industry group. So he's like the managing door. He runs the business side. >> It's an important sector for Google. You know, Amazon was really first, with that push into telco. Thomas Curran last March, laid out Google strategy for Telco. It's a huge sector. They know it. They understand how the cloud can disrupt it, and play a massive role there. >> Yeah. >> And Google, of course. >> They're not going to object to the public cloud narrative that Danielle Royston- >> No. >> I think they like it open source, Android coming to telco. Who knows what it's going to look like? >> That's what we call digital- >> So the next interview I did was with Shailesh Shukla. He is the Senior Vice-president. He's the Senior Leader at Google Cloud for Networking. And if you know, Google, Dave, Google's networking is really well known in the industry for being really awesome, because they power obviously Google Search, and a variety of other things. They pioneered the concept of SRE, Site Reliability Engineer, which is now a de facto position for DevOps, which is a cloud now persona inside almost every company, and certainly a very important position. And so- >> Probably the biggest global network, right? Undersea cables, and- >> I mean, Microsoft's got a big hyper-scale, because they've had MSN, and bunch of other stuff, infrastructure globally. But Amazon, Google and Microsoft all have massive scale, and Google again, very well engineered. They're total, and they're as we know, I live in Palo Alto, so I can attest that they're very strong. So this next interview is really from a networking perspective, because as infrastructure, as code gets more prolific and more penetrated, it's going to be programmable. And that's really going to be a key new enabler. So let's hear from Shailesh, Head of Networking at Google Cloud, and my interview with him. (cheery music) Welcome to theCUBE's coverage of Mobile World Congress, 2021. We are here in person in Barcelona, as well as remote. It's a hybrid event. You're going to have the physical space, in Barcelona for the first time, since 2019, and virtual worlds connecting. I've got a great guest here from Google, Shailesh Shukla, Vice-president and General Manager of the Networking Team, Google Cloud. Shailesh, it's great to see you. Thank you for coming on theCUBE for the special presentation from Mobile World Congress. Obviously, the Edge networking core, Edge human devices, all coming together. Thanks for coming on. >> Thank you so much, John. It's great to see you again. And it's always a pleasure talking to theCUBE. And I want to say hello to everybody, from, you know, in Mobile World Congress. >> Yeah, and people don't know your background. You have a great history in networking. You've been there, many ways of innovation. You've been part of directly, big companies that were now known. Big names are all there. But now we haven't had a Mobile World Congress, since 2019. Think about that. That's, you know, many months, 20 something months gone by, since the world has changed in telco. I got to ask you, what is the disruption happening? Because think about that. Since 2019, a lot's changed in telco. Cloud-scale has happened. You've got the Edge developing. It's IT like now. What's your take? Shailesh, tell us. >> Yeah, John, as you correctly pointed out the last 18 months have been very difficult. And you know, I'll acknowledge that right up front, for a number of people around the world. I empathize with that. Now in the telecom, and kind of the broader Edge world, I would say that the last 18, 24 months have actually been transformative. O-RAN, it turns out was a very interesting sort of, you know, driver of completely new ways of both living, as well as working, right, as we all have experienced. I don't think that I've had a chance to see you live in 24 months. So, what we are seeing is the following. Number one, a number of telecom carriers around the world have started the investment process for 5G, right, and deployment process. And that actually changes the game, as you know, due to latency, due to all of the capabilities around kind of incalculable bandwidth, right. Much lower latency, as well as, much higher kind of enterprise oriented capabilities, right? So network's licensing, as an example, quality of service, you know, by a traffic type, and for a given enterprise. So that's number one. Number two, I would say that the cloud is becoming a lot more kind of mainstream in the world, broader world of telecom. What we are seeing is an incredible amount of partnerships between telecom carriers and cloud providers, right? So instead of thinking of those two as separate universes, those are starting to come together. So I believe that over a period of time, you will see the notion of kind of Cloud Native capability for both the IT side of the house, as well as the network side of the house is becoming, you know, kind of mainstream, right. And then the third thing is that increasingly it's a lot more about enabling new markets, new applications, in the enterprise world, right. So certainly it opens up a new kind of revenue stream for service providers and carriers around the world. But it also does something unique, which is brings together the cloud capabilities right, around elasticity, flexibility, intelligence, and so on, with the enterprise customer base that most of the cloud providers already have. And with the combination of 5G, brings it to the telecom world. And those, you know, I started to call it, as a kind of the triad, right? The triad of an enterprise, the telecom service provider, and the cloud provider, all working together to solve real business problems. >> Yeah, and it's totally a great call out there on the pandemic. I think the pandemic has shown us, coming out of it now, that cloud-scale matters. And you look at all the successes between work, play, and how we've all kind of adjusted, the cloud technologies were a big part of that, those solutions that got us through it. Now you've got the Edge developing with 5G. And I got to ask you this question, because when we have CUBE interviews with all the leaders of engineering teams, whether it's in the industry, or customers in the enterprise, and even in the telcos, the modern application teams have end-to-end visibility into the workload. You're starting to see more and more of that. You starting to see more open source in everything, right. So okay, I buy that. You got an SRE on the team, you got some modern developers, you're shifting left, you've got Devs set up. All good, all cloud. However, you're a networking guy. You know this. Routing packets across multiple networks is difficult. So if you're going to have end-to-end visibility, you got to have end-to-end intelligence on the networking. How is that being solved? Because this is a critical discussion here at Mobile World Congress. Okay, I buy Cloud Native, I buy observability, I buy open source, but I got to have end-to-end visibility for security, and workload management and managing all the data. What's the answer on the network side? >> Yeah, so that's a great question. And the simple way to think about this, is first and foremost, you need kind of global infrastructure, right? So that's a given, and of course, you know, Google with its kind of global infrastructure, and some of the largest networks in the world, we have that present, right. So that's important. Second is, to be able to abstract a way that underlying infrastructure, and make it available to applications, to a set of APIs. Right, so I'll give an analogy here. Just as you know, say 10 years ago, around 10 years ago, Android came into the market from Google, in the following way. What it did, was that it abstracted away the underlying devices with a simple kind of layer on top of operating system, which exposed APIs northbound. So then application developers can write new applications. And that actually unleashed, you know, a ton of kind of creativity right, around the world. And that's precisely what we believe is kind of the next step, as you said, on an end-to-end observability basis, right? If you can do an abstraction away from all of the underlying kind of core infrastructure, provide the right APIs, the right kind of information around observability, around telemetric, instead of making, you know, cloud and the infrastructure, the black box. Make it open, make it kind of visible to the applications. Bring that to the applications, and let the thousand flowers bloom, right? The creativity in each vertical area is so significant, because there are independent software vendors. There are systems integrators. There are individual developers. So one of the things that we are doing right now, is utilizing open source technologies, such as Kubernetes, right? Which is something that Google actually brought into the market. And it has become kind of the de facto standard for all of the container and modernization of applications. So by leveraging those open technologies, creating this common control plane, exposing APIs, right, for everything from application development, to observability, you certainly have the ability to solve business problems through a large number of entities in the systems integrator and the ISC and the developer community. So that's the approach that we are taking, John. >> I love the Android analogy of the abstraction layer, because at that time, the iPhone was closed. It still is. And they got their own little strategy there. Android went the other way. They went open, went open abstraction. Now abstraction layers are good. And now I want to get your thoughts on this, because anyone in operating systems knows abstractions are great for innovation. How does that apply to the real world on telco? Because I get how it could add some programmability in there. I get the control plane piece. Putting it into the operator's hands, how do you guys see, and how do you guys talk about the Edge service offering? What does it mean for the telco? Because if they get this right, this is going to be in telco cloud developer play. It's going to be a telco cloud ecosystem play. It's an opportunity for a new kind of telco system. How do you see that rolling out in real world? >> Great question, John. So the way I look at it, actually even we should take a step back, right? So the confluence of 5G, the kind of cloud capabilities and the Edge is, you know, very clear to me that it's going to unleash a significant amount of innovation. We are in early stages, no question, but it's going to drive innovation. So one almost has to start by saying what exactly is Edge, right? So the way I look at it, is that the Edge can be a continuum all the way from kind of an IOT device in automobiles, right? Or an enterprise Edge, like a factory location, or a retail store, or kind of a bank branch. To the telecom Edge, which is where the service providers have, not only their points of presence, and central offices, but increasingly a very large amount of intelligent RAN sites as well, right. And then the, kind of public cloud Edge, right. Where, for example, Google has, you know, 25 plus kind of regions around the world. 144, you know, PoPS, lots of CDN locations. We have, you know, few thousand nodes deployed deep inside service provider networks for caching of content, and so on. So if you think about these as different places in the network that you can deploy, compute, storage and intelligence act, right. And do that in a smart way, right? For example, if you were to run the learning algorithms in the cloud with its flexibility and elasticity, and run the inferencing at the Edge, very Edge, at the point of sort of a sale, or a point, a very consumer standing. Now you suddenly have the ability to create a variety of Edge applications. So going back to the new question, what have we seen, right? So what we are seeing, is depending on the vertical, there are different types of Edge applications, okay. So let's take a few examples. And I'll give you some, a favorite example of mine, which is in the sports arena, right? So in baseball, when you are in a stadium, and soon there are people sort of starting to be in stadiums, right? And a pitcher is throwing the pitch, right, the trajectory of the ball, the speed of the pitch, where the batter is, you know, what the strike zone is, and all of these things, if they can be in a stadium in real time, analyzed, and presented to the consumer as additional intelligence, and additional insight, suddenly it actually creates kind of a immersive experience. Even though you may be in the stadium, looking at the real thing, you are also seeing an immersive experience. And of course at home, you get a completely different experience, right? So the idea is that in sports, in media and entertainment, the power of Edge compute, and the power of AI ML, right, can be utilized to create completely new immersive experiences. Similarly, in a factory or an automotive environment, you have the ability to use AI ML, and the power of the Edge and 5G coming together, to find where the defects are, in a manufacturing environment, right? So every vertical, what we're finding is, there are very specific applications, which you can call as kind of killer apps, right in the Edge world, that over time will become prevalent and mainstream. And they will drive the innovation. They will drive deployment, and they also will drive ultimately, kind of the economics of all of this. >> You're laying out, essentially the role of the public cloud in the telco market. I'd love to get your thoughts, because a lot of people are saying, "Oh, the cloud, it's all Edge now. It's going back to on-premises." This is not the case. I mean, I've been really vocal on this. The public cloud and cloud operations is now the new normal. So developers are there. So I want you to explain real quick, the role of the public cloud in the telecom market and the Telecom Edge, because now they're working together. You've got abstraction, you mentioned that Android-like environment coming, there's going to be an Android-like effect, that abstraction. You got O-RAN out there, creating these connection points, for interoperability, for radio signals, and the End Transceivers or the Edge of the radios. All of this is happening. How is Google powering this? What is the role of public cloud in this? >> Yeah, so let me first talk about genetically the role of public cloud. Then I'll talk about Google, okay, in particular. So, if at the end of the day, the goal here is to create applications in a very simple and efficient manner, right? So what do you like, if you look for that as the goal, then the public cloud brings, you know, three fundamental things. Number one, is what I would call as elasticity and flexibility, right? So why is this important? Because as we discussed earlier, Edge is not one place, it's a variety of kind of different locations. If there is a mechanism to create this common control plane, and have the ability to kind of have elastic compute, elastic networking, elastic storage, and have this deployed in a flexible manner. Literally if you think, think about it like an effortless Edge is what we are starting to call it. You can move workload and capability, and run it precisely where it makes sense, right? Like I said, earlier, training and learning algorithms in the deep cloud. Inferencing, at the very edge, right? So if you can make that decision, then it becomes very powerful. So that's the first point, you know, elasticity and flexibility that cloud can bring. Second is, intelligence. The whole notion of leveraging the power of data, and the power of AI and ML is extremely crucial for creation of new services. So that's something that the public cloud brings. And the third is this notion of, write once, deploy anywhere, right? This notion of kind of a full stack capability that when open, kind of developer ecosystem can be brought in, right? Like we talked about Kubernetes earlier. So if there's a way in which you can bring in those developer and ISV ecosystem, which is already present in the world of public cloud, that's something that is the third thing that public cloud brings. And Google strategy very simply, is to play on all of these, right? Because we, you know, Google has incredibly rich deployment experience around the world for some of the largest services on the planet, right? With some of the biggest infrastructure in the networking world. Second, is we have a very open and flexible approach, right? So open as you know, we not only leverage kind of the Kubernetes environment, but also there are many other areas, Key Native, and so on where Google has brought a lot of open kind of capabilities to the broader market. And the third, is the enablement of the ecosystem. So last year we actually announced 200 applications, you know, from 30 ISVs in multiple verticals that we're now going to be deployed on Google Cloud, in order to solve specific business pain points, right. And building out that ecosystem, working with telecom service providers, with systems integrators, with equipment players, is the way that we believe Google Cloud can make a difference in this world of developing Edge applications. We are seeing great traction, John, you know, whether it is in the carrier world. Carrier such as Orange, Telecom Italia, TELUS, SK Telecom, Vodafone. These have all publicly announced their work with Google Cloud, leveraging the power of data, analytics, AI ML, and our very flexible infrastructure. And then a variety of kind of partners and OEM players, in the industry. As an example, Nokia, right, Amdocs, and Netcracker, and many others. So we are really excited in the traction that we are getting. And we believe that public cloud is going to be a key part of the evolution of the telecom industry. >> Shailesh, it's great to have you on. Shailesh Shukla, VP and GM of Networking at Google Cloud. And I would just add to that final point there, that open and this Android-like open environment is going to create a thousand flowers to bloom. Those are new applications, new modern applications, new companies, a new ecosystem in the Telco Cloud. So congratulations. Thanks for coming on and sharing your insights. Google Cloud, you guys are about the data, and being open. Thanks for comin' on. >> Thank you, John. Good to talk to you. >> Okay, so keeps coverage of Mobile World Congress. Google Cloud, featured interview here on theCUBE. Really a big part of the public cloud is going to be a big driver. Call it public cloud, hybrid cloud, whatever you want to call it. It's the cloud, cloud and Edge with 5G, making a big difference and changing the landscape, and trying innovation for the telco space. I'm John Furrier, your CUBE host. Thanks for watching. Okay, Dave, that's the Google support. They are obviously singing the same song as Danielle Royston, every vertical. >> Two great interviews, John. Really nice job. We can see the tech. The strategy is becoming more clear. You know, one of the big four. >> Yeah, I just love, these guys are so smart. Every vertical is going to be impacted by elastic infrastructure, AI, machine learning, and this new code deployment, write once, deploy anywhere. That's theCUBE. We love being here it's a cloud show now. Mobile World Congress, back to the studio for more awesome Cloud City content.

(soft upbeat music) >> TheCUBE's back on day three here in Cloud City, Mobile World Congress. This is where all the action is and this is theCUBE's set, I'm John with Dave Vellante. We're here with DR, Danielle Royston, who is the CEO of TelcoDR, as well as the CEO of Totogi. Great to see you again. >> Hey. >> Hey, how are you guys? >> Good >> Great time, great booth last night, good industry executives. A lot of intimate high player, big players here in the industry, even though not a lot of attendance, but the right people are here and events are back. >> Yeah. I think, MWC was the first event to cancel with COVID in end of February 2020. So first big event to come back, it's such a nice symmetry. Typically you have big delegations, hundreds of people from the big groups coming to the show. We're seeing the executives are coming, smaller delegations, but they're all in the booth and that we're having great conversations and it's awesome. >> Yeah. And the thing I will say is that theCUBE's back too we'd like them to be in here in the action, because one of the things that's happened with this hybrid events is that people are watching. And so there's a virtual space and the physical space, and Cloud City has built out paradise, it's beautiful and spectacular behind us. If you look around for the people who can't see, it's really made for the combination of onsite and virtual experience. The content, the people Bon Jovi last night, it's just the top of Mobile World Congress. And it's translating to the industry, this has been amazing. So congratulations. >> Danielle: Thanks so much. >> Dave: I think I got to say, you have a lot to say as we all know. But I think it was easy for the big guys. >> Danielle: Can't Shut me up. (chuckles) >> That's why we love you in theCUBE. But I think it was easy for the big guys to tap out and say, Hey, we're going to save a bunch more money, we don't really have much to talk about. We're going to talk about again. Hey, let's talk about 5G. (chuckles) >> It's a revolution >> Have I told you about 5G though. >> Whereas the narrative here is all about the future and it's not about the future of blah-blah-blah, it's about the future, this is the journey that we're taking and here's where it's starting, and with meat on the bone. >> Yeah. I think what's really interesting about Cloud City is the fact that we've brought these different players together that they're all focused, as you said, on the future. And I'm starting to see these connections where they're collaborating. Like, vendors that didn't know each other probably would never have partnered before, totally different areas. I'm hearing the conversation in the booth about like, Hey, I talked to people in security, or I went and talked to LMX and we're putting deals together 'cause we're complimentary and it's amazing. >> John: And integration partnership, heard that from Google yesterday on our news exclusive break in there, they see integration. And they're talking about Android with what Android did for mobile. They're seeing a whole new software paradigm coming into Telco, it's partnership, it's ecosystem and open. These are new kind of dynamics. >> Danielle: And I think for you guys, when you say integration and open, I think those things are really paired in and they're important. A lot of times Telco people will hear integration, they all think customization. Coding it up and customizing it, so that they talk to each other. But I think the open part of that is really important where we're connecting via API's and I think that's bringing the hyper-scalers, that's what they do. They provide these systems and the software, that's all API base and you can use it very quickly, and you can unravel it if you need to. And it's feature velocity we talked about a couple of days ago. >> And automation is the underpinning of that. I mean, that's really the theme, it's not like a one-off hardcore custom integration that's going to be frozen. >> Danielle: One time to upgrade every 18 months or whatever it is, it's alive. >> Dave: How about Musk yesterday? >> John: I mean, he's always a crowd pleaser. First of all, my kids love him. He's crazy. >> Who doesn't love Elon Musk? >> I mean, he is amazing. He's a builder. And he takes no prisoners. He's just, you know what? My goal was not to go bankrupt. That's what he said a couple of years ago. >> Dave: Which was brilliant because everybody's gone bankrupt in that business and he's just blows it off. >> And he's just like, look it, we're here to just want to chip away at it and we're just going to keep striving, not making up excuses. He takes the failures, he takes the face plants, he gets back up and he keeps going. He's focused on building the future. >> He's focused on one thing, he's on focused everything. He's focused on getting to Mars. And I think that's what I like to compare myself to Elon Musk, not that I'm building rockets or getting to Mars, but that the hard problem that I'm solving is getting Telco to the public cloud. And that's going to take a decade. It might have been accelerated because of COVID, it might've taken 20 years and now it might take 10, but you look at what he does and that guy, he has haters on Twitter they're kind of pew pew, always like throw in their bars, but he's like, I got my rocket company, I got my communication and space company. We're going to need to bore a holes, The Boring Company. I need batteries, I got my Tesla company. And so this guy focuses. >> John: He's got some haters, but he's got a lot more lovers on his other side because people might not know this, but he fires the entire PR department because he's like, I don't need PR I'm just going to go do my own, his own PR. Actually the crypto stuff's always fun, Dogecoins are always a laugh. >> Danielle: I think he just plays around with that. >> And it's just more of like playing. >> Dave Vellante: And that's like, watch this! (laughs) >> He just like to see what he can do. >> I said that live was interesting thing he did, but I think he illustrates the point of a new generation. And I think my young kids, not young, they're in their '20s now, they look at him and they say, that's aspirational because he's building and he's not, he's focused on that one thing. And again, the growth that you mentioned Telco to the cloud, getting back to that, I want to ask you this growth question. It used to be like, okay, growth was there, people expanded cell towers, networks were networks, now it seems like the growth of Telco, what Telco is going into with Edge and all the open ranch stuff, which means that we need more infrastructure. We need more stuff, there's more needed and there's growth behind them. What's your reaction? >> Danielle: I think we need more software. Software eats the world. And it's, I mean, there was a lot of hardware to chomp in Telco and it's just going to keep eating it, and that's just going to accelerate. I that's where Telcos need to start to build that muscle. They don't have great software capability, they don't have public cloud building capability. And so that's a big up-skilling that's a new hiring and I think it's an executive conversation. It's not just an IT thing or just a marketing thing, or networking thing. >> Dave: I got to chime in here for a second because there are a lot of parallels with how the data center transition has occurred. And what's happening here. We talk about all the time, Oh, it's a mainframe, et cetera. There are parallels. And what happened when the data center went to software-defined a whole bunch of hardware was allocated to run all the software-defined stuff. It wasn't built for that, but the cloud, what you guys are doing with Togi and taken advantage of AWS's Nitro and Graviton. That's built to be software-defined. And so the Telcos are going to go through the same thing. If they just virtualized, they're going to say, oh wow, we're wasting 30% of our power our compute power on just supporting all this software-defined stuff, 'cause it wasn't built for that, but the cloud is built for that. And that is going to be a huge difference. >> Danielle: And I keep trying to make this distinction and I think people in Telco still don't get this about the public cloud. They think of it as a place. It's a place to run a workload. And that tells me, they think of it as infrastructure. They think of it as servers still like, well, I'm going to run into my closet or AWS' has closet. I'm like, and I was just having a conversation about this with a senior person from GSMA. I'm like, it's actually about the software that's there, it's about the databases they're building and the analytics and the AI, and ML that they let you buy by the minutes or by the API call. And that is like, you need to think about that 'cause it's mind blowing, it's a totally different way to think. >> John: You're totally right. And just going to again, give you props on this. I've had many ones with Andy Jackson for the past seven years for exclusives, but over the years it's been consistent. Each platform lifting and shift wasn't the end game. Re-platforming in the cloud certainly a great advantage, a great starting point. It was the refactoring. And that's why you see Amazon Web Services for instance, keep adding more services 'cause that's the model. They keep offering more goodness so that the businesses could refactor, not just re-platform. And that's what you're getting, I think with the AI and machine learning, where you start getting into these new use cases, but why couldn't do that before? >> Danielle: Right. >> This is going to be a huge game changer. >> Well Forrest Brazeal, a great guy, a cloud guru wrote a great blog called a lift-and-shift is a ticking time bomb. And it's a great start to get your stuff over there, it forces your team to start to interact with like, an AWS or GCP in a real way like now they, they got to use it. You take it away and I'm like, but once you move it you got to re-factor you got to rewrite and then that's why it's a ticking time bomb. You got to move it over and get going. >> John: You know, Royston DR, Digital Revolution of you are one, you got it here TelcoDR and this has been a great experience for theCUBE as we get back to business with real life events and virtual, the folks who couldn't make it here, Barcelona is still a great city, obviously a great place to come and the events will be back, they'll be hybrid, they'll be different. certainly theCUBE will lay, doubling down, but we've got a great video. I want to share for the group, the Barcelona and Cloud City, this is a montage of what it's like here and little experiential video. So take it away and run that video. (slow upbeat music) (upbeat music) >> Hi, I'm Katie Goldfinch here in Barcelona for an action packed day two at TelcoDR's Cloud City. This morning, the focus was firmly on DR and her MWC keynote which told Telco execs in no uncertain terms that now is the time to act on embracing public cloud. Back in Cloud City, content ruled the day with both theCUBE and Cloud City live stages, hosting public cloud thought-leaders, covering a wide range of topics to educate and inspire attendees. And in the beautiful space of Cloud City, the excitement grew throughout the day as we streamed MWC's exclusive keynotes from Elon Musk. And preparations got underway for tonight's star performer, Jon Bon Jovi. (upbeat music) >> Katie: Wow! What an amazing day from groundbreaking keynotes into space and back to a star studded performance. Don't forget, you can catch up on anything you missed and join us for the rest of the week at cloudcity.telcodr.com or following #cloudcity. (slow upbeat music) >> OK we're back, that was great look at what's going on here in Cloud City, this next video DR, you're going to love this. Your keynote highlights and some Bon Jovi highlights, which by the way, was the most epic thing, people were packed, >> Dave: It was exciting. >> This place was packed. It had the security, clicking peoples, counting all the people, people are standing back. All the people on their booths, they're all coming in to watch. >> Dave: He was pumped. >> Let's take a look at this awesome highlight video from yesterday. (slow upbeat music) (upbeat music) (slow upbeat music) >> Okay. We're back to theCUBE. Dave, that was a highlight reel yesterday. DR has got some action on stage, great messaging, revolution, digital revolution. >> You know your comment about how you think like Elon Musk, that's an inspiration from it. I mean, what a lot of people don't know is when you look at autonomous vehicles, remember you're driving down Palo Alto, you see one of those LIDAR things, he's doing away with LIDARs, it's too expensive. It's $7,000, he's taking it with cheap cameras and software down to a couple of hundred bucks per vehicle, that's the way he thinks and you're doing the same thing to Telco. >> Danielle: I am. I'm trying to change Telco. I mean, he's changing the world. He might be one of the most important humans on earth right now. I don't think I'm exactly that level, but I'm trying to become a really important person in Telco, we have this great message. I think it's going to help Telcos to get better businesses ad I think it's a great idea. >> John: For the folks out there watching, what is that big change? You're going to drive down this Cloud City street, main street of Cloud City and just all about cloud. 'Cause public clouds here, it's going to become hybrid dynamics, operating models are changing. What is the key message that you'd like to send? >> I think all of the software in Telco needs to be re-written. And that's how many millions of lines of code is that and it's going to be shrunk down, and put out on public cloud, and re-written using the software legos of the public cloud, that is a big undertaking. No one's working on it. I'm working on it. I'm doing it. Let's go do it. >> John: Let's do it. And if you look out a couple of years, what would be a successful, what does checkmate look like in these chess game that you play? >> (chuckles) I'm winning, hashtag winning. (laughs and crosstalk) I think it takes, again, it takes singular focus like Elon Musk on Mars. Somebody needs to singularly focus on getting to the public cloud and you can't sit there, and protect your old business models, your CR revenue if you're Amdocs, give that up. When they start to give up their CR revenue to focus on public cloud, then they'll be, okay there's a worthy adversary out there really focusing on it. >> John: I mean the late Clay Christianson had all the same things. Innovator's dilemma. You just get stuck here, what do you do? You kill your own, you eat your own to bring in the new, I mean, all these things are going on, this is a huge test. >> Danielle: If we're willing to burn some boats. >> I think it's transparency, simplicity, and the consumer saying, Hey, this is a great experience. that's the tell sign. And that's what we're going to see over this next decade. >> Consumers love their Telco, I can't wait for that I want to love my Telco. >> Dave: Like you love Netflix. >> Yes, exactly. >> DR, we love you because you've got a bold vision. You put it out there and you're driving it. You're walking the talk. Congratulations. And again, Cloud City is a home run, great success. Thanks for having theCUBE. >> Thank you guys as always, super fun. Great day. >> Okay. TheCUBE's coverage here and remember we're here getting all the action, and it's all going to go online after, synchronous consumption. But right now, it's all about Mobile World Congress and Cloud City. This is the action. And of course, Adam in Cloud City Studio, is waiting for us and you're going to take it from here.

>>Back cubes back on day three here in cloud city, global world Congress. This is where all the action is. And this is the cube set. I'm John. We're here with Dr., who is the CEO of telco VR, as well as the CEO of Tacoma. Great to see you again. Hey, Hey, how are you guys? Good, great time. Great boat last night. Good industry executives. A lot of intimate high player players here in the industry, even though not a lot of attendance, but the right people are here and events are back. >>Yeah. Yeah. I think, um, you know, MWC was the first event to cancel with COVID in, uh, February of 20 end of February, 2020. So first big event to come back. It's such a nice symmetry. Um, yeah, typically you have big delegations, hundreds of people from the big groups coming to the show, we're seeing the executives are coming smaller delegations, but they're all in the booth and that we're having great conversations and it's awesome. >>Yeah. And the thing I will say is that the cubes back to we'd like them to be fee in here in the action. He says, one of the things that's happened with this hybrid events is that people are watching. And so there's a virtual space and the physical space and cloud city has built out paradise. It's beautiful and spectacular behind this. Look, you look around for the people who can't see, it's really made for the combination of onsite and virtual experience, the content, the people Bon Jovi last night, just, it's just the top of mobile world Congress. And it's translating to the industry. This has been amazing. So congratulations. Well, >>I think I got to say you have a lot to say as we all know. Yeah. But I think it was easy for the big guys. That's why we love you in the queue, but I think it was easy for the big guys to tap out and say, Hey, we can save a bunch more money. We don't really have much to talk about. Right. We're going to talk about again, let's talk about 5g revolution. Whereas, whereas the narrative here is all about the future and it's not about the future of blah, blah, blah. It's about the future. You know, this is the journey that we're taking and here's where it starting and with leaving the boat. >>Yeah. And I think what's really interesting about cloud city is the fact that we've brought these different players together that are all focused, as you said, on the, on the future. And I'm starting to see these connections where they're collaborating right vendors that didn't know each other probably would never have partnered before. Totally different areas. I'm hearing the conversation in the booth about like, Hey, I talked to Pete when security or I went and talked to, you know, LMX and we're putting deals together because we're complimentary and it's amazing. >>And integration partnership heard that from Google yesterday on our, our news exclusive break in there, they see integration. And they're talking about Android with Android, for mobile. They're seeing a whole new software paradigm coming into telephones it's partnership ecosystem and open. These are new kind of dynamics >>For you guys. When you say integration and open, I think those things are really paired and they're important. A lot of times telco people will hear integration, I'll think customization, right? Coding it up and customizing it so that they talk to each other. But I think the open part of that is really important where we're connecting via API APIs. And I think that's bringing in the hyperscalers, that's what they do. Right? They provide these systems and the software, it's all API base and you can use it very quickly and you can unravel it if you need to. It's feature velocity that we talked about a couple of days and automation >>Is the underpinning. I mean, that's really the theme, right? It's not like a one-off hardcore custom integration. That's gonna be, I have >>To upgrade every 18 months or whatever it is. Yeah. It's, it's alive. Yeah. >>How about Musk yesterday? I mean, he's always a crowd pleaser. First of all, my kids love him. He's crazy. >>I mean, he is amazing. >>He's he's, he's a builder. He takes no prisoners. He's just, you know what? My goal was not to go bankrupt. That's what he said a couple of years ago, which >>Was brilliant because everybody's gone bankrupt in that business. And he's just, you know, and he's just like, look it, we're here to >>Just want to chip away at it. And we're just going to keep striving, not making up excuses. He takes the failures, he takes the face plant. He gets back up and he keeps going. He's focused on buildings, >>Some one thing, right? He's not focused on everything. He's focused on getting to Mars. And I think that's what I like to compare myself to Elon Musk, right? Not that I'm building rockets or getting to Mars, but that the hard problem that I'm solving is getting telco to the public cloud. And that's going to take a decade. It might've been accelerated because of COVID, it might've taken 20 years and now it might take 10, but you look at what he does and that guy, he has, he has haters on Twitter there. Pew, pew always like throwing their bars, but he's like, I got, I got my rocket company. I got my, you know, communication and space company. We're going to need the bore holes, the boring company. I need batteries. I got my Tesla company. And so this guy focuses. He's got >>Some haters, but he's got a lot more lovers on his other side because people might not know this, but he fires entire PR department because he's like, I don't need PR. I'm just going to go do my own, his own PR actually the crypto, stuff's always fun. Goats, coins, >>Always a laugh. >>And it's just more of like playing watch this. >>I said, I live was interesting thing he did, but I think he illustrates the point of a new generation. And I think my young kids, not young, they're in their twenties. Now they look at him and they say, that's aspirational because he's building and he's not, he's focused on that one thing. And again, the growth that you mentioned telco to the cloud, thinking back to that, I want to ask you this growth question. It used to be like, okay, growth was there, people expand itself? Howard's networks were networks. Now it seems like the growth of telco for telco is going into what's the edge and all the open ranch stuff, which means that we need more infrastructure. Yeah. We need more stuff. There's more and more needed and there's grow. Find them. >>What's your, what's your, I think we need more software. Right. Software eats the world. Right. And it's, I mean, there was a lot of hardware to Trump in telco and it's just gonna keep eating it. Um, and that's just gonna accelerate. I think that's where tacos needs to start to build that muscle. They don't have great software capability. They don't have public cloud building capability. And so that's a big upskilling. That's a new hiring. And I think it's a, it's an executive conversation. It's not just an it thing or just a marketing thing. I got to chime >>In here for a second because there are a lot of parallels with how the data center transition has occurred. And what's happening here. We talk about all the time. It was a mainframe, et cetera. There are parallels. Yeah. And what happened when the data center went to software defined a whole bunch of hardware was allocated to run all the software defined stuff. It wasn't built for that. But the cloud, what you guys are doing with Togi and taken advantage of AWS is nitro and graviton. That's built to two V software defined. Correct. And so the telcos are going to go through the same thing. If they just virtualized, they're going to say, oh wow, we're wasting 30% of our power, our compute power on just supporting all this software defined stuff, because it wasn't built for that. But the cloud is built for that. And that is going to be a huge >>Difference. And I keep trying to make this distinction. And I think people in telcos still don't get this about the public cloud. They think of it as a place. It's a place to run a workload. And that tells me, they think of it as infrastructure. I think of it as servers still like, well, I'm going to run it in my closet. Or AWS has closet. I'm like, I was just having a conversation about this with a senior person from DSMA. I'm like, it's actually about the software. That's there. It's about the databases they're building and the analytics and the AI and ML that they let you buy by the minutes by the API call. And that is my, like, you need to think about that. Cause it's mindblowing, it's a totally different way. And you're >>Totally right. And just spend it again, give you props on this. I've had many one on with Andy gesture the past seven years, not for exclusives, but over the years it's been consistent. Each platform lifting and shift. Wasn't the end game. Okay. Replatforming in the cloud. Certainly a great advantage, a great starting point. It was the refactoring. And that's why you see Amazon web services. For instance, keep adding more services because that's the model. They keep offering more goodness so that the businesses could refactor, not just replatform. Yeah. And that's what you're getting. I think with the AI and machine learning where you start getting into these new use cases, but why couldn't do that before? Right? Right. This is going to be a huge >>Game changer. Forest Brazil, right? A great guy. A cloud guru wrote a great blog called a lift and shift is a ticking time bomb. And it's a great start to get your stuff over there. It forces your team to start to interact with like an AWS or GCP in a real way. Like now they, they gotta use it. You take it away. And I'm like, but once you move it, you got to read factor. You got to rewrite. And then that's why it's a ticking time bomb. You got to get, move it over and get you're going >>To rush him. Dr. Digital revolution of you are one. You got it here, tells the VR. And this has been a great experience for the cube. As we get back to business with real life events and virtual, the folks who couldn't make it here, Barcelona is still a great city, obviously a great place to come and events. We'll be back. There'll be hybrid. There'll be different. Certainly the queue we'll wait doubling down, but, but we've got a great video. I want to share with the group, the Barcelona and cloud city. This is a montage of what it's like here and a little experiential video. So they get away and run that video. >>Hi, I'm Katie Goldfinch here in Barcelona for an action packed day two at telco DER's cloud setting this morning, the focus was firmly on Dr. And her MWC keynote, which told telco exactly in no uncertain terms that now is the time to act on embracing public clouds back in cloud city content ruled the day with both the cube and cloud city life stages, hosting public cloud, thought-leaders covering a wide range of topics to educate and inspire attendees and in the beautiful space of cloud city, the excitement grew throughout the day. As we streamed MW cities, exclusive keynotes from Elon Musk and preparations got underway for tonight. Star performer, Jon Bon Jovi. Wow. What an amazing day from groundbreaking keynotes into space and back to a star studded performance. Don't forget. You can catch up on anything you missed and join us for the rest of the week@cloudcitydottelcor.com or following hashtag cloud Ceci. >>Yeah, that was a great look at what's going on here in cloud city. This next video, Dr. You're going to love this. Your keynote highlights and some Bon Jovi highlights, which by the way, was the most epic thing people were packed. It was excited. It was packed. It had the security flicking, peoples counting. All the people, people are standing back. All the people from their booths are all coming in to watch. He was pumped. Let's take a look at this awesome highlight video from yesterday isolation. >>Dave, that was a highlight reel yesterday. Um, VR has got some action on stage, great messaging, um, revolution, digital revolution. >>You know your comment about how you think like Elon Musk, that's an inspiration from it. I mean, what a lot of people don't know is when you look at autonomous vehicles, remember you're driving down Palo Alto, you see one of those LIDAR things he's doing away with lidars too expensive. It's $7,000. He's taken it with cheap cameras and software down to a couple hundred bucks per vehicle. That's the way he thinks. And you're doing the same thing to telco. >>I am, I am. I'm trying to change ELCA, right? I mean, he's changing the world. He might be one of the most important humans on earth right now. I don't think I'm exactly that level, but I'm trying to become a really important person to taco. We had this great message. I think it's going to help tacos get better businesses. And I think it's a great idea. >>The folks out there watching, what is that big change you're going to drive down this cloud city street, main street of cloud city and just all about cloud. Because public clouds here, it's going to become hybrid dynamics, operating models, and changing. What is the key message that you'd like to send me? >>I think all of the software in telco needs to be written. And that's how many millions of lines of code is that. And it's going to shrunk down and put out on the public cloud and rewritten using the software Legos of the public cloud. That is a big undertaking. No, one's working on it. I'm working on it. I'm doing it. >>Let's go do it. Let's do it. If you look out a couple of years, what would be a successful? What does checkmate look like in this >>I'm winning hashtag. I mean, I think it takes, again, it takes singular focus like Elon Musk on Mars. So when these to singularly focused on getting to the public cloud and you can't sit there and protect your old business models, your, you know, uh, CR revenue, if you're Amdocs, right? Give that up. When they start to give up their CR revenue to focus on public cloud, then they'll be okay. There's there's a worthy adversary out there really. >>I mean the late clay Christianson had all the same things. Innovator's dilemma. You just get stuck here. What do you do? You kill your own debris. You eat your own to bring in the new, I mean, all these things are going on and this is, this is a huge test. >>Have to be willing to burn some boats. >>I think it's transparency, simplicity, and the consumer saying, Hey, this is a great experience. That's the thing. Yeah. Right. And that's what we're going to see. Consumers >>Love their telco. I can't wait for that. I want to love my Netflix. Yes, exactly. >>We'd love you because you've got a bold vision. You putting it out there and you're driving it. You're walking the talk. Congratulations. And again, cloud cities, a home run. Great success. Thanks for >>Having me. It's always super fun. >>Okay. Cubes coverage here. And remember we're here getting all the action and it's all going to go online after the synchronous consumption. But right now it's all about mobile world Congress and cloud city. This is the action. And of course, Adam in cloud city studio was waiting for us and you're going to take it from here.

>> From theCUBE Studios in Palo Alto and Boston, bringing you data-driven insights from theCUBE and ETR. This is Breaking Analysis with Dave Vellante. >> Mobile World Congress is alive, theCUBE will be there and we'll certainly let you know if it's alive and well when we get on the ground. Now, as we approach a delayed mobile world congress, it's really appropriate to reflect in the state of the telecoms industry. Let's face it. Telcos have done of really good job of keeping us all connected during the pandemic, supporting work from home and that whole pivot, accommodating the rapid shift to landline traffic, securing the network and keeping it up and running but it doesn't change the underlying fundamental dilemma that Telco has faced. Telco is a slow growth, no growth industry, with revenue expectations in the low single digits. And at the same time network traffic continues to grow at 20% annually. And last year it grew at 40% to 50%. Despite these challenges, Telcos are still investing in the future. For example, the Telco industry collectively is selling out more than a trillion dollars in the first half of this decade on 5G and fiber infrastructure. And it's estimated that there are now more than 200 5G networks worldwide. But a lot of questions remain, not the least of which is, can and should Telcos go beyond connectivity and fiber. Can the Telcos actually monetize 5G or whatever's next beyond 5G? Or is that going to be left to the ecosystem? Now what about the ecosystem? How is that evolving? And very importantly, what role will the Cloud Hyperscalers play in Telco? Are they infrastructure on which the Telcos can build or are they going to suck the value out of the market as they have done in the enterprise? Hello everyone, and welcome to this week's Wiki Bond Cube Insights powered by ETR. In this breaking analysis, it's my pleasure to welcome a long time telecoms industry analyst and colleague, and the founding director of Lewis Insight, Mr. Chris Lewis. Chris, welcome to the program. Thanks for coming on >> Dave, it's a pleasure to be here. Thank you for having me. >> It is really our pleasure. So, we're going to cover a lot of ground today. And first thing, we're going to talk about Mobile World Congress. I've never been, you're an expert at that and what we can expect. And then we're going to review the current state of telecoms infrastructure, where it should go. We're going to dig into transformation. Is it a mandate? Is it aspirational? Can Telcos enter adjacent markets in ways they haven't been able to in the past? And then how about the ecosystem? We're going to talk about that, and then obviously we're going to talk about Cloud as I said, and we'll riff a little bit on the tech landscape. So Chris, let's get into it, Mobile World Congress, it's back on, what's Mobile World Congress typically like? What's your expectation this year for the vibe compared to previous events? >> Well Dave, the issue of Mobile World Congress is always that we go down there for a week into Barcelona. We stress ourselves building a matrix of meetings in 30 minutes slots and we return at the end of it trying to remember what we'd been told all the way through. The great thing is that with the last time we had a live, with around 110,000 people there, you could see anyone and everyone you needed to within the mobile, and increasingly the adjacent industry and ecosystem. So, he gave you that once a year, big download of everything new, obviously because it's the Mobile World Congress, a lot of it around devices, but increasingly over the last few years, we saw many, many stands with cars on them because the connected car became an issue, a lot more software oriented players there, but always the Telcos, always the people providing the network infrastructure. Increasingly in the last few years people provided the software and IT infrastructure, but all of these people contributing to what the network should be in the future, what needs to be connected. But of course the reach of the network has been growing. You mentioned during lockdown about connecting people in their homes, well, of course we've also been extending that connection to connect things whether it's in the home or the different devices, monitoring of doorbells and lights and all that sort of stuff. And in the industry environment, connecting all of the robots and sensors. So, actually the perimeter, the remit of the industry to connect has been expanding, and so is the sort of remit of Mobile World Congress. So, we set an awful lot of different suppliers coming in, trying to attach to this enormous market of roughly $1.5 trillion globally. >> Chris, what's the buzz in the industry in terms of who's going to show up. I know a lot of people have pulled out, I've got the Mobile World Congress app and I can see who's attending. And it looks like quite a few people are going to go but what's your expectation? >> Well, from an analyst point of view, obviously I'm mainly keeping up with my clients and trying to get new clients. I'm looking at it and going most of my clients are not attending in person. Now, of course, we need the DSMA, we need Mobile World Congress for future for the industry interaction. But of course, like many people having adopted and adapted to be online, then they're putting a lot of the keynotes online, a lot of the activities will be online. But of course many of the vendors have also produced their independent content and content to actually deliver to us as analysts. So, I'm not sure who will be there. I like you, but you'll be on the ground. You'll be able to report back and let us know exactly who turned up. But from my point of view, I've had so many pre-briefs already, the difference between this year and previous years, I used to get loads of pre-briefs and then have to go do the briefs as well. So this year I've got the pre-brief so I can sit back, put my feet up and wait for your report to come back as to what's happening on the ground. >> You got it. Okay, let's get into a little bit and talk about Telco infrastructure and the state, where it is today, where it's going, Chris, how would you describe the current state of Telco infrastructure? Where does it need to go? Like, what is the ideal future state look like for Telcos in your view? >> So there's always a bit of an identity crisis when it comes to Telco. I think going forward, the connectivity piece was seen as being table stakes, and then people thought where can we go beyond connectivity? And we'll come back to that later. But actually to the connectivity under the scenario I just described of people, buildings, things, and society, we've got to do a lot more work to make that connectivity extend, to be more reliable, to be more secure. So, the state of the network is that we have been building out infrastructure, which includes fiber to connect households and businesses. It includes that next move to cellular from 4G to 5G. It obviously includes Wi-Fi, wherever we've got that as well. And actually it's been a pretty good state, as you said in your opening comments they've done a pretty good job keeping us all connected during the pandemic, whether we're a fixed centric market like the UK with a lot of mobile on top and like the US, or in many markets in Africa and Asia, where we're very mobile centric. So, the fact is that every country market is different, so we should never make too many assumptions at a very top level, but building out that network, building out the services, focusing on that connectivity and making sure we get that cost of delivery right, because competition is pushing us towards having and not ever increasing prices, because we don't want to pay a lot extra every time. But the big issue for me is how do we bring together the IT and the network parts of this story to make sure that we build that efficiency in, and that brings in many questions that we going to touch upon now around Cloud and Hyperscalers around who plays in the ecosystem. >> Well, as you know, Telco is not my wheelhouse, but hanging around with you, I've learned, you've talked a lot about the infrastructure being fit for purpose. It's easy from an IT perspective. Oh yeah, it's fossilized, it's hardened, and it's not really flexible, but the flip side of that coin is as you're pointing out, it's super reliable. So, the big talk today is, "Okay, we're going to open up the network, open systems, and Open RAN, and open everything and microservices and containers. And so, the question is this, can you mimic that historical reliability in that open platform? >> Well, for me, this is the big trade-off and in my great Telco debate every year, I always try and put people against each other to try and to literally debate the future. And one of the things we looked at was is a more open network against this desire of the Telcos to actually have a smaller supplier roster. And of course, as a major corporation, these are on a national basis, very large companies, not large compared to the Hyperscalers for example, but they're large organizations, and they're trying to slim down their organization, slim down the supplier ecosystem. So actually in some ways, the more open it becomes, the more someone's got to manage and integrate all those pieces together. And that isn't something we want to do necessarily. So, I see a real tension there between giving more and more to the traditional suppliers. The Nokia's, Ericsson's, Huawei's, Amdocs and so on, the Ciscos. And then the people coming in breaking new ground like Mavenir and come in, and the sort of approach that Rakuten and Curve taken in bringing in more open and more malleable pieces of smaller software. So yeah, it's a real challenge. And I think as an industry which is notorious for being slow moving, actually we've begun to move relatively quickly, but not necessarily all the way through the organization. We've got plenty of stuff sitting on major or mainframes still in the back of the organization. But of course, as mobile has come in, we've started to deal much more closely, uninteractively in real time, God forbid, with the customers. So actually, at that front end, we've had to do things a lot more quickly. And that's where we're seeing the quickest adaptation to what you might see in your IT environment as being much more, continuous development, continuous improvement, and that sort of on demand delivery. >> Yeah, and we're going to get to that sort of in the Cloud space, but I want to now touch on Telco transformation which is sort of the main theme of this episode. And there's a lot of discussion on this topic, can Telcos move beyond connectivity and managing fiber? Is this a mandate? Is it a pipe dream that's just aspirational? Can they attack adjacencies to grow beyond the 1% a year? I mean, they haven't been successful historically. What are those adjacencies that might be, an opportunity and how will that ecosystem develop? >> Sure. >> So Chris, can and should Telcos try to move beyond core connectivity? Let's start there. >> I like what you did there by saying pipe dreams. Normally, pipe is a is a negative comment in the telecom world. But pipe dream gives it a real positive feel. So can they move beyond connectivity? Well, first of all, connectivity is growing in terms of the number of things being connected. So, in that sense, the market is growing. What we pay for that connectivity is not necessarily growing. So, therefore the mandate is absolutely to transform the inner workings and reduce the cost of delivery. So, that's the internal perspective. The external perspective is that we've tried in many Telcos around the world to break into those adjacent markets, being around media, being enterprise, being around IOT, and actually for the most part they've failed. And we've seen some very significant recent announcements from AT&T, Verizon, BT, beginning to move away from, owning content and not delivering content, but owning content. And the same as they've struggled often in the enterprise market to really get into that, because it's a well-established channel of delivery bringing all those ecosystem players in. So, actually rather than the old Telco view of we going to move into adjacent markets and control those markets, actually moving into them and enabling fellow ecosystem players to deliver the service is what I think we're beginning to see a lot more of now. And that's the big change, it's actually learning to play with the other people in the ecosystem. I always use a phrase that there's no room for egos in the ecosystem. And I think Telcos went in initially with an ego thinking we're really important, we are on connectivity. But actually now they're beginning to approach the ecosystem things saying, "How can we support partners? How can we support everyone in this ecosystem to deliver the services to consumers, businesses and whomever in this evolving ecosystem?" So, there are opportunities out there, plenty of them, but of course, like any opportunity, you've got to approach it in the right way. You've got to get the right investment in place. You've got to approach it with the right open API so everyone can integrate with your approach, and approach it, do I say with a little bit of humility to say, "Hey, we can bring this to the table, how do we work together? >> Well, it's an enormous market. I think you've shared with me, it's like 1.4 trillion. And I want to stay on these adjacencies for a minute, because one of the obvious things that Telcos will talk about is managed services. And I know we have to be careful of that term in an IT context, that it's different in a, you're talking about managing connectivity, but there's professional services. That's a logical sort of extension of their business and probably a safe adjacency, maybe not even adjacency, but they're not going to get into devices. I mean, they'll resell devices, but they're not going to be, I would presume not go back to trying to make devices, but there's certainly the edge and that's so, it'll define in opaque, but it's huge. If there's 5G, there's the IT component and that's probably a partnership opportunity. And as you pointed out, there's the ecosystem, but I wonder, how do you think about 5G as an adjacency or indoor opportunity? Is it a revenue opportunity for Telcos or is that just something that is really aspirational? >> Oh, absolutely it's a revenue opportunity, but I prefer to think of 5G as being a sort of a metaphor for the whole future of telecom. So, we usually talk, and MWC would normally talk about 5G just as a mobile solution. Of course, what you can get with, you can use this fixed wireless access approach, where the roots that sits in your house or your building. So, it's a potential replacement for some fixed lines. And of course, it's also, gives you the ability to build out, let's say in a manufacturing or a campus environment, a private 5G network. So, many of the early opportunities we're seeing with 5G are actually in that more private network environment addressing those very low latency, and high bandwidth requirements. So yeah, there are plenty of opportunities. Of course, the question here is, is connectivity enough, or especially with your comment around the edge, at the edge we need to manage connectivity, storage, compute, analytics, and of course the applications. So, that's a blend of players. It's not going to be in the hands of one player. So yes, plenty of opportunities but understanding what comes the other way from the customer base, where that's, you and I in our homes or outward as an about, or from a business point of view, an office or a campus environment, that's what should be driving, and not the technology itself. And I think this is the trap that the industry has fallen into many times, is we've got a great new wave of technology coming, how can we possibly deliver it to everybody rather than listening to what the customers really require and delivering it in a way consumable by all those different markets. >> Yeah now, of course all of these topics blend together. We try to keep them separately, but we're going to talk about Cloud, we're going to talk about competition, But one of the areas that we don't have a specific agenda item on is, is data and AI. And of course there's all this data flowing through the network, so presumably it's an opportunity for the Telcos. At the same time, they're not considered AI experts. They do when you talk about Edge, they would appear to have the latency advantage because of the last mile and their proximity, to various end points. But the Cloud is sort of building out as well. How do you think about data and AI as an opportunity for Telco? >> I think the whole data and AI piece for me sits on top of the cake or pie, whatever you want to call it. What we're doing with all this connectivity, what we're doing with all these moving parts and gathering information around it, and building automation into the delivery of the service, and using the analytics, whether you call it ML or AI, it doesn't really matter. But actually using that information to deliver a better service, a better outcome. Now, of course, Telcos have had much of this data for years and years, for decades, but they've never used it. So, I think what's happening is, the Cloud players are beginning to educate many of the Telcos around how valuable this stuff is. And that then brings in that question of how do we partner with people using open APIs to leverage that data. Now, do the Telcos keep hold of all that data? Do they let the Cloud players do all of it? No, it's going to be a combination depending on particular environments, and of course the people owning their devices also have a vested interest in this as well. So, you've always got to look at it end to end and where the data flows are, and where we can analyze it. But I agree that analysis on the device at the Edge, and perhaps less and less going back to the core, which is of course the original sort of mandate of the Cloud. >> Well, we certainly think that most of the Edge is going to be about AI inferencing, and then most of the data is going to stay at the edge. Some will come back for sure. And that is big opportunity for whether you're selling compute or conductivity, or maybe storage as well, but certainly insights at the Edge. >> Everything. >> Yeah. >> Everything, yeah. >> Let's get into the Cloud discussion and talk about the Hyperscalers, the big Hyperscaler elephant in the room. We're going to try to dig into what role the Cloud will play in the transformation of telecoms on Telecom TV at the great Telco debate. You likened the Hyperscalers, Chris, to Dementors from Harry Potter hovering over the industry. So, the question is, are the Cloud players going to suck the value out of the Telcos? Or are they more like Dobby the elf? They're powerful, there's sometimes friendly but they're unpredictable. >> Thank you for extending that analogy. Yes, it got a lot of reaction when I use that, but I think it indicates some of the direction of power shift where, we've got to remember here that Telcos are fundamentally national, and they're restricted by regulation, and the Cloud players are global, perhaps not as global as they'd like be, but some regional restrictions, but the global players, the Hyperscalers, they will use that power and they they will extend their reach, and they are extending their reach. If you think they now command some fantastic global networks, in some ways they've replaced some of the Telco international networks, all the submarine investments that tend to be done primarily for the Hyperscalers. So, they're building that out. So, as soon as you get onto their network, then you suddenly become part of that environment. And that is reducing some of the spend on the longer distances we might have got in the past approaches from the Telcos. Now, does that mean they're going to go all the way down and take over the Telcos? I don't believe so, because it's a fundamentally different business digging fiber in people's streets and delivering to the buildings, and putting antennas up. So, they will be a coexistence. And in fact, what we've already seen with Cloud and the Hyperscalers is that they're working much more close together than people might imagine. Now, you mentioned about data in the previous question, Google probably the best known of the of the AI and ML delivers from the Cloud side, working with many of the Telcos, even in some cases to actually have all the data outsourced into the Google Cloud for analytics purposes. They've got the power, the heavy lifting to do that. And so, we begin to see that, and obviously with shifting of workloads as appropriate within the Telco networking environment, we're seeing that with AWS, and of course with Azure as well. And Azure of course acquired a couple of companies in affirmed and Metro switch, which actually do some of the formal 5G core and the likes there within the connectivity environment. So, it's not clean cuts. And to go back to the analogy, those Dementors are swooping around and looking for opportunities, and we know that they will pick up opportunities, and they will extend their reach as far as they can down to that edge. But of course, the edge is where, as you rightly say, the Telcos have the control, they don't necessarily own the customer. I don't believe anyone owns the customer in this digital environment, because digital allows you to move your allegiance and your custom elsewhere anyway. So, but they do own that access piece, and that's what's important from a national point of view, from an economic point of view. And that's why we've seen some of the geopolitical activity banning Huawei from certain markets, encouraging more innovation through open ecosystem plays. And so, there is a tension there between the local Telco, the local market and the Hyperscaler market, but fundamentally they've got an absolute brilliant way of working together using the best of both worlds to deliver the services that we need as an economy. >> Well, and we've talked about this you and I in the past where the Telcos, portions of the Telco network could move into the Cloud. And there of course the Telcos all run the big data centers, and portions of that IT infrastructure could move into the Cloud. But it's very clear, they're not going to give up the entire family jewels to the Cloud players. Why would they? But there are portions of their IT that they could move into. Particularly, in the front end, they want to build like everybody. They want to build an abstraction layer. They're not going to move their core systems and their backend Oracle databases, they're going to put a brick wall around those, but they wanted abstraction layer, and they want to take advantage of microservices and use that data from those transaction systems. But the web front end stuff makes sense to put into Cloud. So, how do you think about that? >> I think you've hit the nail on the head. So you can't move those big backend systems straight away, gradually over time, you will, but you've got to go for those easy wins. And certainly in the research I've been doing with many of my clients, they're suggested that front end piece, making sure that you can onboard customers more easily, you can get the right mix of services. You can provide the omnichannel interaction from that customer experience that everybody talks about, for which the industry is not very well known at all by the way. So, any improvement on that is going to be good from an MPS point of view. So yeah, leveraging what we might, what we call BSS OSS in the telecom world, and actually putting that into the Cloud, leveraging both the Hyperscalers, but also by the way, many of the traditional players who people think haven't moved Cloud wards, but they are moving Cloud wards and they're embracing microservices and Cloud native. So, what you would have seen if we'd been in person down in Barcelona next week, would be a lot of the vendors who perhaps traditionally seems a bit slow moving, actually have done a lot of work to move their portfolio into the Cloud and into Cloud native environments. And yes, as you say, we can use that front end, we can use the API openness that's developed by people at the TM forum, to actually make sure we don't have to do the backend straight away, do it over time. Because of course the thing that we're not touching upon here, is the revenue stream is a consistent revenue stream. So, just because you don't need to change the backend to keep your revenue stream going, this is on a new, it keeps delivering every month, we keep paying our 50, 40, whatever bucks a month into the Telco pot. That's why it's such a big market, and people aren't going to stop doing that. So, I think the dynamics of the industry, we often spend a lot of time thinking about the inner workings of it and the potential of adjacent markets, whereas actually, we keep paying for this stuff, we keep pushing revenue into the pockets of all the Telcos. So, it's not a bad industry to be in, even if they were just pushed back to be in the access market, it's a great business. We need it more and more. The elasticity of demand is very inelastic, we need it. >> Yeah, it's the mother of old golden geese. We don't have a separate topic on security, and I want to touch on security here, is such an important topic. And it's top of mind obviously for everybody, Telcos, Hyperscalers, the Hyperscalers have this shared responsibility model, you know it well. A lot of times it's really confusing for customers. They don't realize it until there has been a problem. The Telcos are going to be very much tuned into this. How will all this openness, and we're going to talk about technology in a moment, but how will this transformation in your view, in the Cloud, with the shared responsibility model, how will that affect the whole security posture? >> Security is a great subject, and I do not specialize in it. I don't claim to be an expert by any stretch of the imagination, but I would say security for me is a bit like AI and analytics. It's everywhere. It's part of everything. And therefore you cannot think of it as a separate add on issue. So, every aspect, every element, every service you build into your micro services environment has to think about how do you secure that connection, that transaction, how do you secure the customer's data? Obviously, sovereignty plays a role in that as well in terms of where it sits, but at every level of every connection, every hop that we look through, every route to jump, we've got to see that security is built in. And in some ways, it's seen as being a separate part of the industry, but actually, as we collapse parts of the network down, we're talking about bringing optical and rooting together in many environments, security should be talked about in the same breath. So when I talked about Edge, when I talked about connectivity, storage, compute, analytics, I should've said security as well, because I absolutely believe that is fundamental to every chain in the link and let's face it, we've got a lot of links in the chain. >> Yeah, 100%. Okay, let's hit on technologies and competition, we kind of blend those together. What technology should we be paying attention to that are going to accelerate this transformation. We hear a lot about 5G, Open RAN. There's a lot of new tech coming in. What are you watching? Who are the players that we maybe should be paying attention to, some that you really like, that are well positioned? >> We've touched upon it in various of the questions that have proceeded this. So, the sort of Cloudification of the networking environment is obviously really important. The automation of the process we've got to move away from bureaucratic manual processes within these large organizations, because we've got to be more efficient, we've got to be more reliable. So, anything which is related to automation. And then the Open RAN question is really interesting. Once again, you raised this topic of when you go down an Open RAN routes or any open route, it ultimately requires more integration. You've got more moving parts from more suppliers. So, therefore there are potential security issues there, depending on how it's defined, but everybody is entering the Open RAN market. There are some names that you will see regularly next week, being pushed, I'm not going to push them anymore, because some of them just attract the oxygen of attention. But there are plenty out there. The good news is, the key vendors who come from the more traditional side are also absolutely embracing that and accept the openness. But I think the piece which probably excites me more, apart from the whole shift towards Cloud and microservices, is the coming together, the openness between the IT environment and the networking environment. And you see it, for example, in the Open RAN, this thing called the RIC, the RAN Interconnection Controller. We're actually, we're beginning to find people come from the IT side able to control elements within the wireless controller piece. Now that that starts to say to me, we're getting a real handle on it, anybody can manage it. So, more specialization is required, but understanding how the end to end flow works. What we will see of course is announcements about new devices, the big guys like Apple and Samsung do their own thing during the year, and don't interrupt their beat with it with MWC, but you'll see a lot of devices being pushed by many other providers, and you'll see many players trying to break into the different elements of the market. But I think mostly, you'll see the people approaching it from more and more Cloudified angle where things are much more leveraging, that Cloud capability and not relying on the sort of rigid and stodgy infrastructure that we've seen in the past >> Which is kind of interesting because Cloud, a lot of the Clouds are Walled Gardens, at the same time they host a lot of open technologies, and I think as these two worlds collide, IT and the Telco industry, it's going to be interesting to see how the Telco developer ecosystem evolves. And so, that's something that we definitely want to watch. You've got a comment there? >> Yeah, I think the Telco developer they've not traditionally been very big in that area at all, have they? They've had their traditional, if you go back to when you and I were kids, the plain old telephone service was a, they were a one trick pony, and they've moved onto that. In some ways, I'd like them to move on and to have the one trick of plain old broadband that we just get broadband delivered everywhere. So, there are some issues about delivering service to all parts of every country, and obviously the globe, whether we do that through satellite, we might see some interesting satellite stuff coming out during NWC. There's an awful lot of birds flying up there trying to deliver signal back to the ground. Traditionally, that's not been very well received, with the change in generation of satellite might help do that. But we've known traditionally that a lot of developer activity in there, what it does bring to the four though, Dave, is this issue of players like the Ciscos and Junipers, and all these guys of the world who bring a developer community to the table as well. This is where the ecosystem play comes in, because that's where you get the innovation in the application world, working with channels, working with individual applications. And so it's opening up, it's basically building a massive fabric that anybody can tap into, and that's what becomes so exciting. So, the barriers to entry come down, but I think it will see us settling down, a stabilization of relationship between the Telcos and the Hyperscalers, because they need each other as we talked about previously, then the major providers, the Ciscos, Nokias, Ericssons, Huawei's, the way they interact with the Telcos. And then allowing that level of innovation coming in from the smaller players, whether it's on a national or a global basis. So, it's actually a really exciting environment. >> So I want to continue that theme and just talk about Telco in the enterprise. And Chris, on this topic, I want to just touch on some things and bring in some survey data from ETR, Enterprise Technology Research, our partner. And of course the Telcos, they've got lots of data centers. And as we talked about, they're going to be moving certain portions into the Cloud, lots of the front end pieces in particular, but let's look at the momentum of some of the IT players within the ETR dataset, and look at how they compare to some of the Telcos that ETR captures specifically within the Telco industry. So, we filtered this data on the Telco industry. So, this is our X, Y graph that we show you oftentimes on the vertical axis, is net score which measures spending momentum, and in the horizontal axis is market share, which is a measure of pervasiveness in the dataset. Now, this data is for shared accounts just in the Telco sector. So we filtered on certain sectors, like within the technology sectors, Cloud, networking, and so it's narrow, it's a narrow slice of the 1500. It respondents, it represents about 133 shared accounts. And a couple of things to jump right out. Within the Telco industry, it's no surprise, but Azure and AWS have massive presence on the horizontal axis, but what's notable as they score very highly in the vertical axis, with elevated spending velocity on their platforms within Telco. Google Cloud doesn't have as much of a presence, but it's elevated as well. Chris was talking about their data posture before, Arista and Verizon, along with VMware are also elevated, as is Aruba, which is HPEs networking division, but they don't have the presence on the horizontal axis. And you got Red Hat OpenStack is actually quite prominent in Telco as we've reported in previous segments. Is no surprise You see Akamai there. Now remember, this survey is weighted toward enterprise IT, so you have to take that into consideration, but look at Cisco, very strong presence, nicely elevated as is Equinox, both higher than many of the others including Dell, but you could see Dell actually has pretty respectable spending in Telco. It's an area that they're starting to focus on more. And then you got that cluster below, your Juniper, AT&T, Oracle, the rest of HPE TELUM and Lumen which is formerly, century link via IBM. Now again, I'm going to caution you. This is an enterprise IT heavy survey, but the big takeaway is the Cloud players have a major presence inside of firms that say they're in the telecommunications industry. And certain IT players like Cisco, VMware and Red Hat appear to be well positioned inside these accounts. So Chris, I'm not sure if any of this commentary resonates with you, but it seems that the Telcos would love to partner up with traditional IT vendors and Cloud players, and maybe find ways to grow their respective businesses. >> I think some of the data points you brought out there are very important. So yes, we've seen a Microsoft Azure and AWS very strong working with Telcos. We've seen Google Cloud platform actually really aggressively pushed into the market certainly the last 12, 24 months. So yeah, they're well positioned, and they all come from a slightly different background. As I said, the Google with this, perhaps more data centric approach in its analytics, tools very useful, AWS with this outpost reaching out, connecting out, and as you'll, with its knowledge of the the Microsoft business market certainly pushing into private networks as well, by the way. So yeah, and Cisco, of course in there does have, and it's a mass scale division, a lot of activity there, some of the people collapsing, some of that rooting an obstacle together, their big push on Silicon. So, what you've got here is a sort of cross representation of many of the different sorts of suppliers who are active in this market. Now Telcos is a big spenders, the telecom market, as we said, a $1.4 trillion market, they spend a lot, they probably have to double bubble spend at the moment to get over the hump of 5G investment, to build out fiber where they need to build out. So, any anything that relates to that is of course a major spending opportunity, a major market opportunity for players. And we know when you need the infrastructure behind it, whether it's in data centers or in their own data centers or in the Cloud to deliver against it. So, what I do like about this as an analyst, a lot of people would focus on one particular piece of the market. So you specialize on handsets, people specialize on home markets and home gateways. So, I tend to sit back and try and look at the big picture, the whole picture. And I think we're beginning to see some very good momentum where people are, where companies are building upon, of course their core business within the telecom industry, extending it out. But the lines of demarcation are blurring between enterprise, Telco, and indeed moving down into small business. And you think about the SD-WAN Market, which came from nowhere to build a much more flexible solution for connecting people over the wide area network, which has been brilliant during the pandemic, because it's allowed us to extend that to home, but be of course, build a campus ready for the future as well. So there are plenty of opportunities out there. I think the big question in my mind is always about from going into the Telco, as I said, whether they wannna reduce the number of suppliers on the roster. So that puts a question mark against some of the open approaches, and then from the Telco to the end customer, because it goes to the Telcos, 30% of their revenue comes from the enterprise market, 60% from the consumer market. How do they leverage the channel? Which includes all the channels, we talked about security, all of the IT stuff that you've already touched upon and the Cloud. It's going to be a very interesting mix and balancing act between different channels to get the services that the customers want. And I think increasingly, customers are more aware of the opportunities open to them to reach back into this ecosystem and say, "Yeah, I want a piece of humans to Telco, but I want it to come to me through my local integrated channel, because I need a bit of their expertise on security." So, fascinating market, and I think not telecom's no longer considered in isolation, but very much as part of that broader digital ecosystem. >> Chris, it's very hard to compress an analysis of a $1.4 trillion business into 30 or 35 minutes, but you're just the guy to help me do it. So, I got to really thank you for participating today and bringing your knowledge. Awesome. >> Do you know, it's my pleasure. I love looking at this market. Obviously I love analogies like Harry Potter, which makes it bring things to life. But at the end of the day, we as people, we want to be connected, we as business, we want to be connected, in society we want to be connected. So, the fundamental of this industry are unbelievably strong. Let's hope that governments don't mess with it too much. And let's hope that we get the right technology comes through, and help support that world of connectivity going forward. >> All right, Chris, well, I'll be texting you from Mobile World Congress in Barcelona, and many thanks to my colleague, Chris Lewis, he brought some serious knowledge today and thank you. And remember, I publish each week on wikibond.com and siliconangle.com. And these episodes are all available as podcasts. You just got to search for Breaking Analysis podcasts. You can always connect with me on twitter @dvellante or email me at dave.vellante@siliconangle.com. And you can comment on my LinkedIn post, and don't forget to check out etr.plus for all the survey data. This is Dave Vellante, for theCUBE Insights powered by ETR. Be well, and we'll see you next time. (upbeat music)

(cheerful music) >> Voiceover: Live, from Los Angeles, it's theCUBE covering Open Source Summit North America 2017, brought to you by the Linux Foundation and Red Hat. >> Okay, welcome back here when we're here live with theCUBE coverage of Linux Foundation Open Source Summit North America in Los Angeles, I'm John Furrier, Stu Miniman, our next guest is Arpit Joshipura, General Manager of Networking the Linux Foundation. Welcome back to theCUBE, great to see you. >> Thank you, nice to be here again. >> Always good to talk networking, as Stu and I always say networking is probably the most active audience in our community, because at the end of the day, everything rolls downhill to networking when the people complain. It's like "where the hell's my WiFi, "where's the patent latency," networking SDN was supposed to solve all that. Stu, we're still talking about networking. When are we going to fix the network? It's always in the network, but important. In all seriousness, a lot of action continues and innovation to networking. >> Absolutely. >> What's the update? >> Update is very exciting. So first of all, I can confidently say that open source networking, not just networking, but open source networking is now mainstream. And it's mainstream in the telcos, in the carriers, service providers, it's getting there in the enterprise. And Linux Foundation is really proud to host eight of the top 10 projects that are in open source networking. ONAP, ODL, OPNFV, Fido, you know, the list goes on. And we're really excited about each of these projects, so good momentum. >> We've been seeing and talking about it too, we all, joking aside, the intro there, but in all seriousness we've been saying, we get better the network, it's finally happening. Has it been a maturization of the network itself, has it been industry force and what have been the forces of innovations been? OpenStack has done some great work, they're not getting a lot of love these days with some people, but still we've seen a lot of production workflows at OpenStack, OpenStack's still there, rocking and rolling. New projects are onboarding, you see the telcos getting business models around digital. What's the drivers? Why is network mainstream now? >> I think it's a very simple answer to that, and that is before 5G and IoT hit the market, network better be automated. It's a very simple requirement. And the reason is very self-explanatory, right? You can't have an IoT device on the call on hold while you get your service up (laughs). So, it's IoT, right? And it is the same thing on 5G, a lot of new use cases around cars or around low latency apps. You need automation, and in order to have automation, a carrier or a solution provider goes through a simple journey. Am I virtualized? Yes or no? Am I using the building blocks of SDN and NFV? Yes or no? And the third, which is now reality, which is, am I using open source to do it? Yes, and I'm going to do it. And that's the driver right? I mean it's all- >> Automation, when you started throwing out a lot of TLAs, you talk about SDN and NFV, we've got a four-letter acronym that we need to talk about. The Open Network Automation Platform. Why don't you bring your audience up to speed, what that is, the news that you have this week. >> Absolutely, so ONAP was launched earlier in 2017. It's a combination of two open source projects, ECOMP and Open-O, and we wanted to bring the community together versus sort of fragmented, and because our end users are asking for a harmonized solution. So we brought it together. It was launched earlier this year as we talked about, but the most significant thing is it has received tremendous support from the member community. So at OSS today, we just announced that Vodafone has joined as a platinum member. They will be on our board, and as you know Vodafone is one of the top providers. So if you add up all the subscribers that are being influenced by ONAP, they come to 55%. So out of the 4.5 billion subscribers that exist, more than 55% will be influenced by ONAP and the work that happens. That includes China Mobile, China Telecom, China Unicom, all of the China, Bell Canada, AT&T obviously who sort of was the founding member, Orange, Reliance Jio from India. So we've got, Comcast joined earlier in the quarter, so we've got cable companies, carriers, all joining. And to be very honest, I'll probably just give you the list of all the networking vendors that are participating here, and I've list Amdocs, Cisco, Ericsson, GigaSpaces, Hua Wei, IBM, Intel, Nokia, Tech Mahindra, VMware, ZTE, Juniper, you know, you name it. >> Arpit, I mean the long story short is-- >> Just cause they're involved does that mean they're actually working-- >> They're active. Active. >> we're not going to be critical on this. >> But come on, even Cisco's involved in the open source stuff, right? >> They've very active. >> We've had lots of guests on from Cisco, Lulu Tucker's been on many many times. We know the open source there, but it used to be, networking was very proprietary. Now, it wasn't SDNs going to totally change everything, it's lots of different pieces, lots of different projects. It kind of felt like the river slowly wearing down the mountain as to this transition from proprietary to open source. >> I think what happened is if you just look at four years back, it was proprietary. Not because people liked it, that was the only game in town. When the open source industry, especially in the networking, and this is a hundred year old industry, telecom right? When it came in in the desegregated manner, hardware and software separated, control plane separated from data plane, all of that happened, and what happened suddenly was each components started becoming mature. So they're production-ready components, and what ONAP and what Linux Foundation is intending to do this year is trying to bring all the components into a system solution. So that it's easy to deploy, and all you have to do is point, click a service, everything below it will all be automated and integrated. >> Well the telcos are under a lot of pressure. I mean this has been a decade run, over-the-top they've been struggling with that from years ago, decade ago or more. But now they're getting their act together. We're seeing some signs, even VMworld. Stu, Pat Gelsinger said 5G's the next big kahuna in networking the next 20 years, you can validate it. This is going to be a 20 year changeover, so as the Linux Foundation, which essentially is the organic growth engine for this community, what do you guys see in that 20 years? Cause I see 5G's going to create all these connection points. IoT is going to be massive. That's going to increase the surface area for potential attacks. We're seeing a networking paradigm that's moving from old guards Cisco, Juniper, and some of the names you mentioned. They got to make some changes. How are they adjusting? What's going on so the next 20 years we don't have more conflict and more identity politics. >> I'll tell you one thing, I come from a vendor community, right? So I really appreciate the work they're doing. Part of the reason you would have seen in the past a vendor dragging their feet is because of fragmentation in the community. You as a vendor do not know where to put your resources, people, and where you put your money. What we're doing at the Linux Foundation is starting to harmonize all that. And once you do that and you have enough of a scale and enough of a community, there is no shortage of people and developers that the vendors are contributing to. >> John: What's some of the proof points that you can share? >> Okay, so ONAP, from start to now, about 1100 Wiki members already. That means 1100 unique developers are joining the project. Over 50 members. We ran out of VMs, I mean it's like that has not happened in any project for over five years. We had to fire up people more. So you can see that... And this is not just, these are competitors, but if you step back and look at it, they're competitors from an end user perspective, but they're solving the common problem in which they don't get any money. They don't make any money. These are things that absolutely need to happen. The plumbing, the infrastructure, the orchestration, the control layer, the data plane layer, all of that need to just happen, it should just work. And let them differentiate on top. We are actively seeing almost everybody participating significantly. >> Stu, let's hear your thoughts on this. You guys are both, I view you guys both as experts and influencers in this networking ecosystem, so I got to ask you both a question. CNCF has gotten a lot of traction with funding, sponsorships are off the charts, you're seeing massive tractions, Stu, where you also see that KubeCon Cloud Native, but you have native clouds, I call them native clouds, in Amazon and then soon-to-be enterprises that want to run software-defined networking. So the question is do you see the same kind of support going for your group as CNCF's getting? Is it just fashionable at this point, CNCF? Why isn't the networking getting as much love at least from a sponsorship standpoint. >> Let's define love. So if you define love as the 2017 ONS, which is our largest networking summit, we grew that 10%, everything was off the charts. The feedback, the content-- >> John: The attendance growth or sponsorships? >> Attendance, sponsorships, CFPs were 5x oversubscribed. Call for papers, for submissions, 5x oversubscribed. So we had a hard time picking the best of the best. ONS 2018 is going to be here in LA, we've already started getting requests on, you know, so we're the same boat. >> So you feel good. >> We feel good. >> Not about this, like you're winning. >> No, but I tell you-- >> There'll be positive numbers we know from the hype scale horses, Stu, answer your question and then maybe you guys can comment. So is it a matter of that there's more buzz in positioning involved in the hype side of CNCF now, and there's just meat and potatoes being done in the networking world, Stu? Cause you and I both know, if no one has nothing to say, they've got to kind of market themselves. >> So John, think back to five years ago, how much hype and buzz there was around SDN. John, you and I interviewed like Martin Casado, he just bought for $1.4 billion, all these startups, lots of VC investment, so I think we're further down the maturity curve. Now networking's always-- >> John: People going to work, they're doing their job. >> It's real, it's in production-- >> It's funny-- >> It's not parb, I always say when you move from PowerPoint to production, real things happen. >> I always say, if there's going to be sizzle, I better see some steak on the grill, so what's happening is steak is cooking right now. >> And John, so one of the things we say, networking, no offense to all my friends in networking, networking is never sexy. >> Oh, come on Stu, networking is totally sexy. >> I always say it's cool again. >> Networking has never lost its edge. >> It absolutely is majorly important, but Arpit, take us in, you know, Kubernetes is hot, containers get a lot of buzz and everything. Networking, critical piece of making sure that this works, feels like, I think back to the virtualization days, it took us 10 years to kind of solve those things that that abstraction layer broke. It feels like networking is further ahead than it was, it's moving faster, we understand it's not something that's just kind of oh we'll let the networking guys get to it eventually. Networking and security, which often has that networking tie are front and center now. >> Very good point, and I think what you have to also sort of step back and look at is what are the problems that need to be solved from an end user perspective? So the hardest networking problems at the data plane control layers, check. Next big problem that remain to be solved was orchestration, data analytics, and things like that. Check, solve, with ONAP. Now the next problems that need to be solved are containerization of enterprise app, which is where Kubernetes and... and then how does containerization work with networking? That's all the C&I, the interfaces. I would say next year, you will start to see the interworking and the blend of these "hot projects" where they can all come together. >> Stu, you were there in 2010, I looked right in the camera and said to Dave Vellante, storage is not as sexy. And Dave called it snoreage, cause snoreage is boring. (Stu laughs) >> And at that time, the storage industry went on a run. And we well-documented that. Sexy is, networking is sexy. And I think that we-- >> I call it cool. >> And I just tweeted, 25g is a good indicator of a 20 year run, and networking is the big kahuna as Pat Gelsinger said in IoT, so I think, Stu, I think it's going to be very apparent, sexy. I just don't see a lot of amplifications, so you don't see a lot of people marketing the sizzle. I think, being done I would agree, but Stu, there's more buzz and hype on the CNCF side than networking. >> That's fair. I think it is always as you said, it's the initial phase of any project that gets a lot of clicks and a lot of interest, and people want to know about it. A lot of the buzz is around, just awareness. The classic marketing cycle, and I think we're past that. It was therefore ONAP in January, we're past that. >> Alright, so here's the question, final question. So the steak is coming off the grill in our metaphor here, what are people-- what is that product, what's happening, what is the big deliverable right now from a networking standpoint that people can bet on and know that they can cross the bridge into the future with it. >> You will see a visible difference, you as in an end user, an enterprise, or a residential consumer. You will see a significant difference in terms of how you get services. It's as simple as that. Why? Because it's all automated. Network on-demand, disaster recovery, video conference services. Why did over-the-top players, why were they so successful? If you need a Gmail ID, you go in, you get one. It's right there. Try getting a T1 line five years ago. That would be six weeks, six months. So with the automation in place, the models are converging. >> So provisionings are automatically happening-- >> Provisionings, service, and then the thing that you will not see but you will see in the services impact, is the closed loop automation that has all the analytics built in. Huge, huge. I mean, network is the richest source, and by the way, I'll come back next year and I'll tell you why we are cool again. Because all of a sudden, it's like oh my god look at that data and the analytics that the network is giving me. What can I do with it? You can do AI, you can do machine learning, you can do all these things. >> Well, we're looking forward to it, the eye of the storm is kind of happening now I think in networking, Stu and I always have debates about this, cause we see a lot of great action. Question is, let's see the proof points, you guys are doing some good work. Thanks for sharing, Arpit, really appreciate, General Manager of Networking at Linux Foundation. It's theCUBE, more live coverage from Los Angeles, the Open Source Summit North America. I'm John Furrier, Stu Miniman, be back with more live coverage after this short break. (techno music)