>>Hello, welcome to the special cube conversation. I'm John for your host of the queue here in Palo Alto, California. We're still remoting in getting great guests in events are coming back. Next few weeks, we'll be at a bunch of different events and you'll see the cube everywhere, but this conversation's about network challenges in a distributed hybrid workforce era. We've got a team say he principal, product manager, edge networking solutions, a Dell technologies and Rob McBride channel and partner sales engineer at versa networks. Gentlemen, thanks for coming on this cube conversation, >>John. Thank you, John. >>So first of all, obviously with the pandemic and now we're moving out of the pandemic, even with Omnichron out there, we still see visibility into kind of back to work and events and it's, but it's clearly hybrid environment cloud hybrid work. This has been a huge opening of everyone's eyes around network security provisioning, you know, unexpected disruptions around everyone being worked at home. Nobody really forecasted that. The fact that the whole workforce would be remote coming in. So again, put a lot of pressure on the network challenges over over the past two years. How is it coming out of this different what's your guys' take on this. >>Yeah, to then when we start looking at it, let's kind of focus a little bit on challenges, you know, you know, when this all kind of started off, obviously, as you stated, right, everyone was kind of taken by surprise in a way, right? What do we do? We don't know what to do at this moment. And you know, I go back and I remember a customer giving me a call, you know, when they were at first looking at, you know, your traditional land transformation and one of the changed their branches to do something from an SD perspective. And then the pandemic hit. And their question to me was Rob, what do I do? Or what do I need to start thinking about now, all of a sudden to your point, right? Everyone now is no longer in the office and how do I get them to connect. >>And more importantly, now that I can maybe figure out a way to connect them, how do I actually see what they're doing and be able to control what they're actually now accessing? Because I no longer have that level of control as of them coming into the office. And so a lot of customers, you know, we're, we're beginning to develop kind of homegrown solutions, look at various different things to kind of quick hot patches, if you will, to address the remote workers coming in and things of that nature. And we'll be seeing kind of progression through all this as a, as, as opposed to just solving, getting a user, to connect into the, into an environment that it can provide, you know, continuity for. They started coming up with other challenges to the point of security. They started, you know, I have other customers calling me up and saying, you know, I I've now got a ransomware problem, right? >>So, you know, what do I do about that? And what are the things I need to kind of consider with respect to now I'm much more vulnerable because my, my, my branch has state has basically become much more diversified and solutions and things that they're looking for, regardless, obviously around security connectivity, there they've been challenged with addressing how do they unify their levels of visibility without over encumbering themselves and how they actually manage now this kind of much more kind of distributed kind of network if you will. Right? So things around, you know, looking at, you know, acronyms around from like a Z TNA or, you know, cloud security and all this fun stuff starts coming into play. But what it, what it points to is that the biggest challenge ideas, how does, how do they converge networking and security together and provide equitable and uniform policy architecture to identify their users, to connect and access the applications that are relevant to the business and be able to have that uniformity between whether it's the branch for them being remote. And that's part of what we've kind of seen as this progression to the last two years and kind of solutions that they're looking for to kind of help them address that. It's almost like >>It's a good thing in a way. It actually opens up the kimono and say, Hey, this is the real world we've got to prepare for this next generation a TIF. I want to get your take because, you know, remember the old days we were like, oh yeah, we've got to prepare for these scenarios where maybe 30% will be dialing on the V land or remotely, you know, it's not 30%. It was like 100%. So budgets aren't out of whack and yet they want more resiliency at the edge. Right. So, so one, I didn't budget for it. They didn't predict it and it's gotta be better, faster, cheaper, more skier. >>Yeah. Yeah. So, so, so John, the difference is, is that, you know, Dell, for instance, as already was already working towards this distributed model, right? The pandemic just accelerated that transformation. So, so when customers came to us and said, oh, we've got a problem with our workforce and our users being so geographically suddenly dispersed, you know, we had some insight that we could immediately lean on. We had already started working on solutions and building those platforms that can help them address those, those problems. Right. Because we'd already done studies before this, right. We had done studies and we'd come back on this whole work from home or remote office scenario. And, and the results were pretty unanimous in that customers were, all users were always complaining about, you know, application performance issues and, and, you know, connectivity issues and, and things like that. So we, we, we kinda knew about this. And so we were able to proactively start building solutions. And so, you know, so when a customer comes, there's like Rob was talking about, you know, their infrastructure, wasn't set up for everybody to suddenly move on day one and start accessing all the corporate resources where the majority of the organization is accessing corporate resources from away from campus. Right? So we, we, we have solutions, we've been building solutions and we have guidance to offer these customers as they try to modernize that network and address these problems. >>Well, that's a great segue to the next topic. Talk track is, you know, what is a network? What is network monetization? Right. So let's, let's define that if you don't mind, well, I got you guys here. You're both pros get that sound bite, but then let's get into the benefits of the outcomes from what that enables. So if you guys want to take a stab at defining what is network modernization mean? >>I think there's a lot of definitions, or it kind of depends on your point, your point of view of where you're, where you're responsible for, from a network or within the stack, you know, are from a take obviously is, you know, working, working from a vendor. And with solutions that we provide modernization is really around solutions that begin to look at more software defined architectures and definitions to begin a level of decoupling between, you know, points of control, hardware and software, and other kinds of points of visibility and automation to the point where, where things are let's, let's kind of put an air quotes in a sense of being more digitized. And in the sense, like even how we're looking at things from a consumerization perspective, but looking at things a much more, more cloud aware cloud specific cloud native in built automation, as well as inbuilt kind of analytics where things are much more in a, in a broader SDN, kind of a construct would be a form of a definition from a, from a, from a, from a monetization perspective. >>Now, do the other element of your, kind of a question in regards to, it's kind of the benefits that come as a result of this. So as customers have been in the last 24 months, looking at different solutions to address part of what we've been talking about, part of it is you want, when you're looking at, whether it's like you're using a word like sassy to kind of define, you know, how are enterprises looking for ZTE and they based solutions or cloud security to augment their, their overall needs. The benefits that they're finding are simplicity of management, because they're now looking for more uniform solutions that can address secure access for remote workers, in addition to their own kind of traditional access, as it relates to their offices to better visibility. Because as this uniformity of this kind of architecture, the now able to actually really see the level of context, right? >>I can see you, John, as far as where you're coming in and access and what applications on what devices. And now I have a means to actually apply a policy to that matters to me as the business, from an IP perspective, to protect me as the business, but also to ensure that you're actually authorized and accessing things that I have from an it regular reg regulations perspective. So benefits and the summary are kind of like Mo in bill automation, better, you know, things get done faster, things repair on their own in a different way, as a result of automation, greater visibility. Now they have much more greater insights into what we are doing as users of the overall it infrastructure and better overall control. That's been ultimately simplified as result of consolidation and unification. >>That's awesome. Insight. I T what's your take on the benefits of ma network modernization? >>So I'd like to sort of double down on, on, you know, something Rob said, right? So the visibility, right? So enhanced visibility in layman's terms, that just means more insight, more insight means the ability to implement best practices around application usage, application performance, more insights means control that it departments are, are meeting. They need that to manage and address security threats, right? To be able to identify an abnormal traffic pattern or unauthorized data movement, to be able to push updates and, and patches quickly. So, so it's really about, you know, that, that manageability, that that level of control gives them the ability to offer a resilient and secure underlying networking infrastructure. And then, you know, finally one of the key benefits is cost savings of, you know, everybody is trying to be more efficient. And so from, from our perspective, it's, it's really about building an open platform. >>You know, we've built a platform or an x86 based platform. We've we chose that because we wanted to tap into a mature ecosystem that, you know, customers can leverage as they, as they build their build towards their modernizing modernization goals. And so we're like tech leveraging technologies, like UCPs so universal customer premise equipments. And so that's really just an open hardware platform, but what you get by consolidating your network functions like routing and firewall, and when optimization you, and when you consolidate it all onto a single device, you get hardware savings, cost savings. You, you get operational savings as well, right? So you've it, common hardware infrastructure means a common deployment model means a streamlined operations means fewer truck rolls, right? So, so there's a tremendous amount of, of, of benefit from the cost standpoint as well, because from our perspective, it's really that what customers are looking for, they need enterprise grade solutions that can scale in a cost-effective manner. >>That's awesome. You guys mentioned sassy earlier. I'm like, first of all, software as a service is very sassy, big modern application movements. Always get my hair sassy. I think, you know, a kind of a term around SAS software as a service, but for you guys, it's talking about secure access service edge, which is a huge category growth right now where, you know, per security and networking, it's a huge discussion SD win fits into that somehow, because it used to be campus networking before now. It's everyone's world is the same. Now it's connected. So sassy is huge. How does that fit into SD when it's in the trend of the SAS at the same? What's the difference? Cause wan has been booming for the past decade as well in terms of trends. How are you guys seeing those converging in what's the difference? >>You know, I like to also agree with you, this thing has been booming the last couple of years, right. You know, kind of, kind of bread and butter part of what we've been doing, but, you know, to your question in regards to kind of its linkage relative to sassy, right. You know, as you articulated, right. It's the sassy secure access service edge from a definition of the acronym. So it's authority is first kind of good to kind of define a little bit, maybe for some of those that may not be overly familiar with it. And I like to kind of dumb it down a little bit into the point of sassy is really an architecture that is around, you know, the convergence of networking and security being put together in a uniform platform or service that is delivered from both the cloud, as well as addressing, you know, their, their kind of traditional land requirements. >>Now digging in sassy is broken to two little buckets, right? It's broken into a network layer and the six security layer and by its definition, right, by, by a particular analyst, the network component, a big portion of that is SD wan. And so SD wan providing that value associated to what does, you know, dynamic lanes, steering automation, application attachments, so on and so forth is a core element of the foundation of the network layer associates, associate sassy. And then the other element of zesty is around the security bit. And so they're very much intrinsically linked, whether, you know, for example, like versus just the kind of mentioned this here, the, the, the sassy cloud that we built for our customers to leverage for private access, public access, you know, secure internet CASBY, DLP type of services is built upon SQM. In addition to our customers that are using Guesty Lampard or traditional land are using SD wan to connect to that cloud. >>So it's very, very much linked and they kind of go hand in hand, depending on your approach to the broader architecture. And, you know, another point I'll bring into that. What, what it also highlights is that whether it's around sassy or not, when we, when in pertinent to everything we'd been other kind of been talking about, the other thing that's coming with sun intrinsically and natively is really the concept of security it's around, whether it's security at the branch, or whether it's around some form of, you know, identity management or a point of improving posture for the, for the enterprise to, you know, obviously the spec traffic at the branch where remotely, but what we're seeing at a trend wise, which, you know, part by customer adoption from our own platform, if you will, is basically security and SD Wang coming together, whether for your traditional land transformation, or as a result of sassy services for a hybrid needs of connectivity, right? Remote workers, hybrid workforce, going into the cloud for, for their connectivity needs and optimizations. In addition to obviously the, the enterprises branch transformations, >>I like that native aspect of it. We used to joke and call SD way in St. Cloud because it's, we're all using cloud technologies. Talk about the security impact real quick. If you don't mind, I want to just double click them what you mentioned there, because I think the cloud effication plus the security piece seems to be a key part of this dynamic. Is that true? Or did they get that right? What's what's this all mean with cloud vacation? Yeah, >>And I, I would, I, I, I agree with, I guess kind of where you're leading into that is, you know, review all of us you're right now. Exactly. In talking with you right now, right. John is, as you stated at the beginning, we're all remote. And so from a business perspective, right, we are accessing, or from an engagement we're accessing a cloud service. Now what's critical for us, as you know, obviously enterprise employees is that our means of accessing this cloud service needs to have some level of hardening. We need to protect, right. Not only our own asset that we're using, right. Our laptops or other machinery that you use to connect to the network, but in addition to protect our company, right? So our company also needs to protect them. So how can we do that? Right? How can we do that in a very fast and distributed way? >>Sure. We can put security endpoints at every location with every user and every home. And that's one means of, of a particular solution. So your point about cloud is now take all of that and bring it to the cloud where you'd have a much more distributed means, right? And much more dynamically, scalable approach to actually doing that level of inspection, posture and, and enforcement. And so that's kind of where the rubber meets the road, right, is for us to access those cloud applications. The cloud that we're using as a conduit for security, as well as network also is now even connected and optimized paths to applications like what we're using right now, right. To, to, to do this conversation. So that's kind of where it meets together. And the security element is because we're so diverse, we just need, we, we, we need to ensure, right. We're all much, we're much more vulnerable. Right? My home network is, you know, maybe arguably maybe not as secure as when I go into an office. Right? >>So most people, because you have worked for virtual networks, >>I can make that argument. Yes. Right. But you know, the average, most of us, remote workers, you know, our homes aren't as hard. And so we point a point of risk, right? And so, as we, as we go to cloud apps, we're more connected to the internet. Right. You know, the, the, the point of being able to do this enforcement from a sassy concept helps provide that improved posture for enterprises to secure their traffic and get visibility into that. >>All my network engineer, friends are secure, as you read about. And I always joked to the malware, you missed, missed the wrong network engineer. If I go after them, their house, spear fishing. And you're trying to get into your network. I'd say, if I want to bring this back, because what we're bringing up here is cloud is actually enabling more on premises because you're working at home. That's a premise, right? So you're also edge is a premise edge and cloud. And a cloud kind of eliminates all this notion of what is cloud and edge, but at the end of the day is where you are. Right. So having the performance and the security and the partnership that same with Dell, I know you guys have been on this for a while because I've been covering it, but the notion of edge completely changes now, because what does that even mean? Home's edge is the camp of data centers and edge the, the cars and edge, the telco monopoles and edge. This is a big deal. This is the unit about the unification. This is all about making it all work. What's your, what's your take on this from the Dell perspective. >>Yeah. And I think, I mean, it that's, I mean, you, you kind of summarize it, right. I mean, what does edge mean to you? Right. It's and then, so every time I have a conversation with, with somebody, I always start with, let's define what your edge is. And so, you know, from, from our perspective, from the Dell perspective is, you know, we believe that we want to provide enterprise grade infrastructure. We want to give our customers the right tools. And we're seeing that with this trend of a hybrid workforce, a geographically dispersed user base, we're seeing a tremendous need for, you know, from it departments for tools, for solutions that can give them the control that they can sort of push out into their networks to ensure a safe and secure external access to corporate resources. Right. And so that's what we're committed to is making sure that, that, that management layer by either developing the solutions, in-house bringing the right partners to the table and just ensuring that our customers have the right tools because this sort of trend, or this, this, this new normal is not going away. And so we have to adapt. >>So thanks for coming on, Rob, we'll give you the final word. What's changed the most, in your opinion, with customers, environments, around how they're handling their networks as we come out of the pandemic, which has proven kind of which projects are working, which ones aren't where to double down on what was screwed up. I mean, come on. This is, we're kind of seeing it all play out. What's your, what's your take on as we come through the pandemic and people come out of this, what's the big learning. Okay. >>Well that you need partners. Right. Okay. So it's not even from a vendor perspective. What I mean by partners is what we're finding and what I think a lot of other customers I've engaged with and others is this ain't easy for even as much as we can within the technology vendor market, right. It's to make things easier to do. There's a lot of technology and the enterprise, it is recognized. They need a lot of these building blocks, right. To, to accomplish a lot of different things, whether it's around automation, to, in other tools as, as auto was leading into. And so we're finding that, you know, a lot of our, our base or our interactions are really trying to identify an appropriate partner that can help not only talk to the technology, but help them actually understand all the various different, you know, multi-colored legal blocks, they've got to put together, but also help help them actually put that into a realization. >>Right. And, you know, and then be able to then give the keys to them so they can eventually drive the car. Right. And so the learning that we're seeing here is this is a lot of tech, there's a lot of new tech, new approaches to existing technology of things that they've actually done. And they're, they're, they're looking for help. Right. And so they're looking for kind of, let's call it like trusted advisor kind of status of people that can help explain the technology to them and then help them understand how do they put it together. So they can then ultimately accomplish our overall kind of, you know, other kinds of objectives from an it perspective. And the other learning that I'll just say, and then I'll, then I'll stop. Here is SD wan isn't dead, right? Yes. The man is actually still driving. And it's actually an impetus for a lot of other things that enterprise is actually doing, whether it's around, you know, sassy, oriented services, remote access, private access, and other things of that nature. >>I totally agree. I think the networking, stuff's still going to be so much innovation going on with the edge exploding as well. That the really great, amazing stuff happening. Thanks for coming on this cube conversation, great conversation, taking it to the edge network challenges in the distributed hybrid workforce era is about moving things around the internet, making them secure. I'm John for your host. Thanks for watching.

>>Welcome to this cube conversation. I'm Lisa Martin. I'm joined by Derek manky next, the chief security insights and global threat alliances at 40 guard labs. Derek. Welcome back. >>Yeah, it's great to be here again. So then, uh, uh, a lot of stuff's happened since we last talked. >>One of the things that was really surprising from this year's global threat landscape report is a 10 more than 10 X increase in ransomware. What's going on? What have you guys seen? >>Yeah, so, uh, th th this is, is massive. We're talking about a thousand percent over a 10, a 10 X increase. This has been building police. So this, this has been building since, uh, December of 2020 up until then we saw relatively low, uh, high watermark with ransomware. Um, it had taken a hiatus really because cyber criminals were going after COVID-19 lawyers and doing some other things at the time, but we did see us a seven fold increase in December, 2020. That is absolutely continued. Uh, continued this year into a momentum up until today. It continues to build never subsided. Now it's built to this monster, you know, almost 11 times increase from, from what we saw back last December and what the, uh, the reason what's fueling. This is a new verticals that cyber criminals are targeting. We've seen the usual suspects like telecommunication government and, uh, position one and two, but new verticals that have risen up into this, uh, third and fourth position following our MSSP. And this is on the heels of the Casia attack. Of course, that happened in 2021, as well as operational technology. There's actually four segments, there's transportation, uh, automotive manufacturing, and then of course, energy and utility all subsequent to each other. So there's a huge focus now on, on OTA and MSSP for cybercriminals. >>One of the things that we saw last year, this time was that attackers had shifted their focus away from enterprise infrastructure devices, to home networks and consumer grade products. And now it looks like they're focusing on both. Are you seeing that? >>Yes, absolutely. I in two ways. So first of all, again, this is a kill chain that we talk about. They have to get a foothold into the infrastructure, and then they can load things like ransomware on there. They can little things like information Steelers as an example, the way they do that is through botnets. And, uh, what we reported in this, um, in the first half of 2021 is that Mariah, which is about a two to three-year old button that now is, is number one by far, it was the most prevalent bond that we've seen. Of course, the thing about Mariah is that it's an IOT based bot net. So it sits on devices, uh, sitting inside a consumer networks as an example, or home networks, right? And that, that can be a big problem. So that's the targets that cyber criminals are using. The other thing that we saw that was interesting was that one in four organizations detected malvertising. >>And so what that means at least, is that cyber criminals are shifting their tactics from going just from cloud-based or centralized email phishing campaigns to a web born threats, right? So they're infecting sites, waterhole attacks, where people would go to read their, their, their daily updates as an example of things that they do as part of their habits. Um, they're getting sent links to these sites that when they go to it, it's actually installing those botnets onto those systems. So they can get a foothold. We've also seen scare tactics, right? So they're doing new social engineering Lewis pretending to be human resource departments, uh, you know, uh, uh, it staff and personnel, as an example, with pop-ups through the web browser that looked like these people to fill out different forms and ultimately get infected on, on a home devices. >>Well, the home device we use is proliferate. It continues because we are still in this work from home work, from anywhere environment. Is that when you think a big factor in this increased from seven X to nearly 11 X, >>It is a factor. Absolutely. Yeah. Like I said, it's, it's also, it's a hybrid of sorts. So, so a lot of that activity is going to the MSSP, uh, angle, like I said, uh, to, to the OT. And so to those verticals, which by the way, are actually even larger than traditional targets in the past, like, uh, finance and banking is actually lower than that as an example. So yeah, we are seeing a shift to that. And like I said, that's, that's further, uh, backed up from what we're seeing on with the, the, the, the botnet activity specifically with Veronica too. Are >>You seeing anything in terms of the ferocity? We know that the volume is increasing. Are they becoming more ferocious? These attacks? >>Yeah. Yeah. There, there is. There's a lot of aggression out there, certainly from, from criminals. And I would say that the velocity is increasing, but the amount of, if you look at the cyber criminal ecosystem, the, the stakeholders, right. Um, that is increasing, it's not just one or two campaigns that we're seeing. Again, we're seeing, this has been a record cases here almost every week. We've seen one or two significant, you know, cyber security events that are happening. That is a dramatic shift compared to, to, to last year or even, you know, two years ago too. And this is because, um, because the cyber criminals are getting deeper pockets now, they're, they're becoming more well-funded and they have business partners, affiliates that they're hiring each one of those has their own methodology, and they're getting paid big. We're talking up to 70 to 80% commission, just if they actually successfully, you know, in fact, someone that pays for the ransom as an example. And so that's really, what's driving this too. It's, it's, it's a combination of this kind of perfect storm as we call it. Right. You have this growing attack surface and work from home, uh, environments, um, and footholds into those networks. But you have a whole bunch of other people now on the bad side that are orchestrating this and executing the attacks too. >>What can organizations do to start to slow down or limit the impacts of this growing ransomware as a service? >>Yeah, great question. Um, everybody has their role in this, I say, right? So, uh, if we look at, from a strategic point of view, we have to disrupt cyber crime. How do we do that? Um, it starts with the kill chain. It starts with trying to build resilient networks. So things like a ZTE and a zero trust network access, a SD LAN as an example, as an example for producting that land infrastructure on, because that's where the threats are floating to, right? That's how they get the initial footholds. So anything we can do on the, on the, you know, preventative, preventative side, making, uh, networks more resilient, um, also education and training is really key. Things like multi-factor authentication are all key to this because if you build that, uh, uh, preventatively and that's a relatively small investment upfront, Lisa compared to the collateral damage that can happen with these ransomware, it passes, the risk is very high. Um, that goes a long way. It also forces the attackers to it slows down their velocity. It forces them to go back to the drawing board and come up with a new strategy. So that is a very important piece, but there's also things that we're doing in the industry. There's some good news here too, uh, that we can talk about because there's, there's things that we can actually do. Um, apart from that to, to really fight cyber crime, to try to take the cyber criminal cell phone. >>All right. Hit me with the good news Derek. >>Yeah. So, so a couple of things, right. If we look at the bot net activity, there's a couple of interesting things in there. Yes, we are seeing Mariah rise to the top right now, but we've seen big problems of the past that have gone away or come back, not as prolific as before. So two specific examples, a motel that was one of the most prolific botnets that was out there for the past two to three years, there is a take-down that happened in January of this year. Uh, it's still on our radar, but immediately after that takedown, it literally dropped to half of the activity. It hadn't before. And it's been consistently staying at that low watermark now had that half percentage since, since that six months later. So that's very good news showing that the actual coordinated efforts that we're getting involved with law enforcement, with our partners and so forth to take down, these are actually hitting their supply chain where it hurts. >>Right. So that's good news part one trick. Bob was another example. This is also a notorious spot net take down attempt in Q4 of 2020. It went offline for about six months. Um, in our landscape report, we actually show that it came back online, uh, in about June this year. But again, it came down, it came back weaker and another form is not nearly as prolific as before. So we are hitting them where it hurts. That's, that's the really good news. And we're able to do that through new, um, what I call high resolution intelligence. >>Talk to me about that high resolution intelligence. What do you mean by that? >>Yeah, so this is cutting edge stuff really gets me excited and keeps, keeps me up at night in a good way. Uh, cause we're, we're looking at this under the microscope, right? It's not just talking about the why we know there's problems out there. We know there's, there's ransomware. We know there's the botnets, all these things, and that's good to know, and we have to know that, but we're able to actually zoom in on this now and look at it. So we, for the first time in the threat landscape report, we've published TTPs, the techniques, tactics procedures. So it's not just talking about the, what it's talking about, the how, how are they doing this? What's their preferred method of getting into systems? How are they trying to move from system to system and exactly how are they doing that? What's the technique. And so we've highlighted that it's using the MITRE attack framework TTP, but this is real-time data. >>And it's very interesting. So we're clearly seeing a very heavy focus from cyber criminals and attackers to get around security controls, to do defensive, Asian, to do privilege escalation on systems. So in other words, trying to be common administrator so they can take full control of the system. Uh, as an example, a lateral movement on there's still a preferred over 75%, 77, I believe percent of activity we observed from malware was still trying to move from system to system by infecting removable media like thumb drives. And so it's interesting, right? It's a brand new look on the, these a fresh look, but it's this high resolution is allowing us to get a clear image so that when we come to providing strategic guidance and solutions of defense, and also even working on these, take down that Fritz, it allows us to be much more effective. So >>One of the things that you said in the beginning was we talked about the increase in ransomware from last year to this year. You said, I don't think that we've hit that, that ceiling yet, but are we at an inflection points, the data showing that we're at an inflection point here with being able to get ahead of this? >>Yeah, I, I, I would like to believe so. Um, it, there is still a lot of work to be done. Unfortunately, if we look at, you know, there is a, a recent report put out by the department of justice in the S saying that, you know, the chance of, uh, criminal, uh, to be committing a crime, but to be caught in the U S is somewhere between 55 to 60%, the same chance for a cyber criminal lies less than 1% above 0.5%. And that's the bad news. The good news is we are making progress and sending messages back and seeing results. But I think there's a long road ahead. So, um, you know, there there's a lot of work to be done. We're heading in the right direction. But like I said, they say, it's not just about that. It's everyone has, has their role in this all the way down to organizations and end users. If they're doing their part and making their networks more resilient through this, through all the, you know, increasing their security stack and strategy, um, that is also really going to stop the, you know, really ultimately the profiteering, uh, that, that wave, you know, cause that continues to build too. So it's, it's a multi-stakeholder effort and I believe we are, we are getting there, but I continue to still, uh, you know, I continue to expect the ransomware wave to build. In the meantime, >>On the end user front, that's always one of the vectors that we talk about it's people, right? It's there's so there's so much sophistication in these attacks that even security folks and experts are nearly fooled by them. What are some of the things that you're saying that governments are taking action on some recent announcements from the white house, but other organizations like Interpol, the world, economic forum, cyber crime unit, what are some of the things that governments are doing that you're seeing that as really advantageous here for the good guys? >>Yeah, so absolutely. This is all about collaboration. Governments are really focused on public private sector collaboration. Um, so we've seen this across the board, uh, with 40 guard labs, we're on the forefront with this, and it's really exciting to see that it's great. Uh, there, there, there's always been a lot of will work together, but we're starting to see action now. Right. Um, Interpol is a great example. They recently this year held a high level forum on ransomware. I was actually spoken was part of that forum as well too. And the takeaways from that event were that we, this was a message to the world, that public private sector we need. They actually called ransomware a pandemic, which is what I've referred to it as before in itself as well too, because it is becoming that much of a problem and that we need to work together to be able to create action, action action against this measure, success become more strategic. >>The world economic forum, uh, were, were, uh, leading a project called the partnership against cyber crime threat map project. And this is to identify not just all this stuff we talked about in the threat landscape report, but also looking at, um, you know, things like how many different ransomware gangs are there out there. Uh, what are their money laundering networks look like? It's that side of the side of the supply chains of apple so that we can work together to actually take down those efforts. But it really is about this collaborative action that's happening and it's, um, innovation and there's R and D behind this as well. That's coming to the table to be able to make, you know, make it impactful. >>So it sounds to me like ransomware is no longer a for any organization in any, any industry you were talking about the expansion of verticals, it's no longer a, if this happens to us, but a matter of when and how do we actually prepare to remediate prevent any damage? Yeah, >>Absolutely. How do we prepare? The other thing is that there's a lot of, um, you know, with just the nature of, of, of cyber, there's a lot of, uh, connectivity. There's a lot of different, uh, it's not just always siloed attacks. Right? We saw that with colonial obviously this year where you have the talks on, on it that can affect consumers right now to consumers. Right. And so for that very reason, um, everybody's infected in this, uh, it, it truly is a pandemic, I believe on its own. Uh, but the good news is there's a lot of smart people, uh, on the good side and, you know, that's what gets me excited. Like I said, we're working with a lot of these initiatives and like I said, some of those examples I called up before, we're actually starting to see measurable progress against this as well. >>That's good. Well, never adult day, I'm sure. In your world, any thing that you think when we talk about this again, in a few more months of the second half of 2021, anything that, that you predict crystal ball wise that we're going to see? >>Yeah. I think that we're going to continue to see more of the, I mean, ransomware, absolutely. More of the targeted attacks. That's been a shift this year that we've seen. Right. So instead of just trying to infect everybody for ransom, but as an example of going after some of these new, um, you know, high profile targets, I think we're going to continue to see that happening from there. Add some more side on, on, and because of that, the average costs of these data breaches, I think they're going to continue to increase. Um, they had already did, uh, in, uh, 20, uh, 2021, as an example, if we look at the cost of the data breach report, it's gone up to about $5 million us on average, I think that's going to continue to increase as well too. And then the other thing too, is I think that we're going to start to see more, um, more, more action on the good side. Like we talked about, there was already a record amount of take downs that have happened five take downs that happened in January. Um, there were, uh, arrests made to these business partners that was also new. So I'm expecting to see a lot more of that coming out, uh, uh, towards the end of the year, too. >>So as the challenges persist, so do the good things that are coming out of this. They're working folks go to get this first half 2021 global threat landscape. What's the URL that they can go to. >>Yeah, you can check it all, all of our updates and blogs, including the threat landscape reports on blog about 40 nine.com under our threat research category. >>Excellent. I read that blog. It's fantastic. Derek, always a pleasure to talk to you. Thanks for breaking this down for us showing what's going on. Both the challenging things, as well as the good news. I look forward to our next conversation. >>Absolutely. It's great. Chatting with you again, Lisa. Thanks. >>Likewise for Derek manky. I'm Lisa Martin. You're watching this cube conversation.

>>from the Cube Studios in Palo Alto and Boston connecting with thought leaders all around the world. This is a cube conversation. Welcome to the >>Special Cube program. We are here with the Amazon Web Services Public Sector Partner Awards program. It's a celebration of AWS public sectors partners and their end user customers where there's been innovation and we're pleased to have on this show here, the award winner for the most innovative AI and ML Artificial intelligence and machine learning solution. Axial three D is the partner, and the end user is Belfast Hospital. He got Roger Johnson, the CEO of actual three D, and Dr Tim Brown consulted transplant surgeon at Belfast Hospital, who has been doing amazing things not only on the as an innovative partner, but really during Covic making things happen by solving the problem of the surgical gap in the number of surgeries that you're doing really high performance saving lives. Congratulations. First of all, congratulations. Roger. Dr Kimberly. Thanks for joining me. >>Re pleasure. >>Okay, let's get into it. First of all, Dr Tim Brown, I really want to commend you on the amazing work that you're doing before we get into some of the partnership awards conversations. You have been at the front lines solving a lot of problems around the gap between the number of surgeries that could take place with Cove. It, um, tell that story real quick. I really think it's super important. Take a minute to >>explain. Yeah, thanks for the opportunity. And it's been an incredible rollercoaster for the last three months, pretty much all of the transplant programs across the world who have been affected by Coupet of shut down but with some pretty innovative on the grill leadership team Working advances with managed to open a program up again. And and Belfast, we have a bytes and 50 to 50 disease donor transplants year over the last three months, with just a 90 90 kidney transplants. Pretty much we've cleared the whole waiting list in Northern Ireland, pretty much for people waiting for a kidney transplant at this time. And it's been a remarkable few weeks, but it really is a testament to the critical care community. People that work in intensive care is the high marks, a support organ donation. Of course, our donors who have given so selflessly at such a tragic time for them. So I'd like to pay tribute to all of our donors into the amazing people who have been involved in the team. Mark belt faster this time. >>That's super amazing. Can you just I just want to pause from and just captured the number of order of magnitude. You said it was 6 to 10 year and you didn't 90 90. >>Yeah, so six weeks basically Teoh, two years work in six weeks old in the middle of the night as well. So it's been It's been hard of hard work, so you can see the sleeplessness. I'm trying to catch up with a minute, but it's been really, really satisfying. An incredible I come for patients and legacy of this of this, the program is gonna last about faster. 40 years. >>Well, I want to say congratulations. I'll give you my Cube Award for not changing the world but saving the world. One person at a time. 90 interviews and six weeks. That's amazing. That's like thinking clearing the waiting list. You really changing lives there. Congratulations. >>That's very kind of you. Thank you very much. >>Roger. Good. A great partner and customer. You have here. Talk about this award. You guys have talked about the company? What is this all about? Why you guys in this position? Why are you winning? >>Yes, So I think our motivation for our company is driven by our partners, such such as? In what they're doing transforms care And even in these horrific situation, our scenarios. We have the moment with Kobe. Think you're hearing the start of the amazing story our job is to give Surgeons liked him the best possible insight that he can have going into his surgeries For the last 20 years, surgeons of relied largely on two D imaging, so C, t and memory scans or for being able to plan their surgeries when it's murdered, technology should apply them much greater insight or they actually perform the surgery. So we've created a technology that platforms on AWS that allows us to turn those traditional hard to understand to the images into micro millimeter precise models off the patients exact anatomy. The value hopefully, two amazing colleagues like Tim is that instead of trying to interpret what a two D image CD or memory scan might mean he can actually see for the first time before he opens the patient up exactly what he's going to find when when he when he starts the surgery. So he immediately start to complete that planning before the surgery actually takes. So hopefully that analyze a number of benefits to results without the shorter operations. Find less surgical meeting we brought into the surgery. Hopefully, faster Surgeries names last risk of infection For patients being shorter Time means most >>awesome. Dr. Brian, I want to get your take on this. Can you describe the impact on your side because you know the future of work, which is everyone's been talking about in the tech industry for many years now, with code we were just talking about. The success is you're having and changing lives and saving lives. The notion of work workplace work, forces, work loads, work flows are all changing. Certainly the workplace people aren't as on site as they used to be. The workforce has to be protected. How does the AI and how does the actual three D help you and your work flows? Are you getting more done? Can you give specifics around the impact to your job? >>Yeah, it's a bit It's been a fantastic journey to date. We're still learning away. It's a journey. We're trying to work out exactly where this lies in. The fact that Kubla does not come along, which has changed, or working practices, that means that we have to look for different solutions on this, I think, is very 100 solution to amend. My practice over the last three years has been in terms of complex and real surgery on oncological surgery, where we have, for example, a tumor and kidney where we think, my goodness, we're gonna have to take this kidney I and throw it in the bin because it's very badly disease. So the index case that we were involved with that was building a child who wanted to donate his kidney to his daughter. But when we worked him up, we find a tumor in his kidney, which ordinarily would have to be discarded. But thanks to the imaging that Excel was able to produce for us, we were able to plan Well, geez, well cut well and as a result of kidney, I really plan a removal of the tumor from the kidney itself. We really repair kidney and then transplant it into his daughter. So with the technology that was available, we were able to save two lives on one particular case on, and it's really grown from there on. We've been involved in five or six different, really complex cases where the imaging has changed the outcomes for our patients who ordinarily wouldn't have been able to. Chief insight comes, I think, the AI interface on the AI solution we've developed in our partnership with the Excel. As I said, it's a journey and we're still finding our way. But to insights that I've really got our the first is that what we want to do is reduce variability, not just in our in our observers, from the way that we interpret imaging tradition is what you're saying is, look a two D images. We're now able to sit and look at this, emerging in a three dimensional space on our desk. Rather than trying to reconstruct these things in your head, we can look at them and discuss the different images with our colleagues in real time, a zealous that which I think is probably the most important thing, is that we're not able to engage our patients and a partnership. Before we had a bit of an unfair advantage that we're able to interpret these images because 20 or 30 years of getting used to doing this as professionals. But the patients are presented with some incredibly difficult decisions to make by their own health and with very little understanding that. But now I can handle the model of their own disease very easy to understand, and that gives my patient autonomy to make the decisions about their own bodies back again. And I think that's a hugely powerful, powerful tool for these guys have about potential decisions that they have to make that more effective for the rest of their lives. >>So the problem you're solving was one of the technical problem. So you're trying to figure out manually, get more insight into the the imaging and to the customer or the patient. This case customer, the patient. I can make a better decision. Those are two problems, statements that seem to be the big ones that I missed. Anything? >>Absolutely, absolutely. >>Okay, so actual three d you guys have a great solution? How >>did you >>get here? Tell us about your story. What's what's What's the big trajectory for you guys? In terms of the value proposition, it seems to be amazing and again highlights. The advantages of technology really solves the problem. But the outcome on the patient side is pretty phenomenal. >>Yes, so the chance for us is there or the development that we have made. The lately, we admit, is to be able to automatically turn these two D images into three D models. So we take each of the slices off of memory or cities. Using AWS is machine learning. We construct three D macro millimeter precise representation of For me. That's only possible. First of all, we treat the algorithms that we created on Amazon platform using over a 1,000,000 pre labeled CDs. Consume our system automatically detect. Yeah, it's a level. What is bone? What is ligament? What is on our earlier vessel? With the training that we're able to perform, we've been able to with with these 1,000,000 images we've been able to in effect, tree and our system automatically detect the parts of me with this micro service level that hasn't been previously possible. This technology, or the ability to create three D models, has existed for maybe 10 or 15 years, but it's it's needed. Experts like him who were, in effect manually code the two D image pixel level and could affect so some software and turn it into a three D image. Typically, too, it's in ours, often expert like them to do. And the problem is, Tim could only do one of the time. We estimate there about three million of these complex surgeries each year in the world that need open effort from greatly from this enhanced imaging. And we couldn't get 33 million under these, especially. And that. So we have this process no on the AWS platform, with dozens of these models in parallel, and each more will take maybe a few minutes to turn from the CD into the into the three D representation. So through the park off the Amazon Public cloud, we've been able to provide this this powerful machine learning automated solution that can actually scale toe man >>Dr Brian talk about the impact because, I mean Andy Jassy, the CEO of AWS, always talks about this. When I interviewed him, he says, you know, we're here to help do the heavy lifting this sounds like some pretty heavy lifting. What was just talked about? I mean, the manual work involved. You essentially have a collective intelligence and supercomputer power with AWS. What's your take on this as this evolves? Why isn't everyone doing this? >>Yeah, well, I don't know why. Every minute. That's that's That's the key question. It really is. From my perspective, there is no heavy lifting at all, and what I do is I push a couple buttons. I put a bit of data, and I send it off. From my perspective, it is about as easy as it gets is probably a ZTE sending email, which we do hundreds of times a day. And so, from from my perspective, I'm delighted to say there's no heavy lifting until I get a patient's data. I send data through to excel, who will then fool me and say, Listen to what is it exactly that we want to have a personal service from actual on? A couple days later, there's a delivery of a beautiful life size three D representation model, will check and then take to plan on and treat a patient with. So the heavy lifting really has all been done. A Z Roger alluded to in the past. It was hugely time consuming work that required a huge amount of training. But basically that's being replaced with a push of a button on. These supercomputers have taken all of my heavy lifting away on, and I think this is one of the true representation. Zoff technology really, really advances real world solutions and my patients are benefactors. From this >>Roger Dr Brown. Lay out the architecture because, first of all, pretend I want to take this every single friend that I have here in California and around the world. I want to just deploy this. What's the architecture and what's needed on the deployment side? Say it to Belfast as you deploy this. What's kind of involved in you? Just take us through high level. I must be cloud scales. Amazing, No doubt about it. We just talked about that. But what's involved in the architecture side of my standing? A bunch PC two's Is there sage maker involvement? What's the architecture and then deployment? What does that look like? >>Sure, So again, a slight step back. One of the challenges when, when we is the MedTech community try and introduce innovation into health and hospitals that the hospitals i t. Infrastructure network definition is often very locked on. So we're trying to bring new software and load it and install it in the hospital data system. That is a huge, often lengthy process that has to be done through lots of hoops in terms off Hey, network a compliance. Lots of different steps along the journey and that often wants from a good reasons, is a significant barrier to the timely adoption off innovative technologies in the cars. What a what a platform a selfie on AWS allies were just another website, as Tennis said, is, uh, only that, though his only existence with actual three D in terms of the interface is dragging and dropping the CT scan into our website into a portal portal exists quickly on the AWS instance. In one of our region, we are working with a little in the US. Never leave the US We use the the public client version in US East. We take advantage of many features within AWS, but a sage maker is probably a core of what we do. It's not innovation that AWS introduced know several years ago that was like juice this this machine learning trained set of algorithms that allow us to give this disruption. >>And it sounds like the more you use it, the more get smarter. Or is that as well? >>Absolutely. So our journey is, As Tim said, we're on a journey not only in terms off the technology and you're very receptive. In terms of yes, the more we train it, the more we treated on specific anatomy types or pathology types or trouble types, the better our system gets recognizing the specific characteristics of those. More importantly, this is about a journey I having made this disruption, we make the change and transformation off new standards of care pathways. That's the innovation that we just enable. It's amazing. Surgical teams like hymns. Let me transformation >>Dr Brown on your side. You're sitting there. I got a big problem trying to solve these problems. I got patients one but one better outcomes. They want to live. I don't want to throw away kitty, so I don't have to you to solve that problem that when when they bring that over, what was it like over on your side of the house is a practitioner. Deploying it. You've got you've got two jobs going. You're kind of doing I t integration on one hand and you're a surgeon on the other, trying to make things happen. You know what I see? This is not a lot of I t here. What's the deployment? Looks like. >>Yeah, deployment means I don't know. Why ever announces doing that. Such a straightforward, easy situation. It's that's remarkable. Ready? It's such a good solution, and I think part of any sort of change management program, and this again is change management. It's challenging the way we think about things. It's challenging people's comfort zones on any time we need to do change. We've got this anatomy of change. You've got innovators go early, adopters will lead the doctors, and I think what we're going to see over the next 5 to 10 years is people are recognizing that this technology is a game changer, possibly being driven by their patients who say I'm on the three D model and I want to see what this actually looks like because basically not black and white picture you're showing me doesn't make any sense to me and I think there's going to be the two drivers is that the first is that we want to have a consistency of care on the lack of variation in our care across across old old services. But as well is that patients? I think we're gonna drive this as well. So once once we get the innovators and the early adopters of this technology on board, then we'll see a tipping point. And that's that's when it becomes an acceptable normal thing for people to do. When they come in the hospital, they'll be sure print tight off their three d printed like moral off their pathology. I'm not a huge demand for their decision making for treatment processes, and that's a true collaboration between doctor or surgeon on the patient. That's that's where we need to be in the 21st century. It's it's going to be a collaborative decision making process. You talked about the pressures, journeys and this This is a really integral part. This is the roadmap of your journey to a large extent. So I think this I can see this being rolled out worldwide, being driven by patients buying a correction and variability of healthcare provision. >>That's a great example is an innovative award winner for the most innovative use of artificial intelligence and machine learning. Three D images saving lives Congratulations, Tim Rogers. Phenomenal Final question As we end this out, what's the scar tissue pun intended? You know, What did you learn? What was some of the things that you could share with folks as people look at this and say This is an example of cloud scale and the technology for good. What lessons have you learned? What can you share for folks? Take a minute to explain the split. Roger. We'll start with you. >>Yeah, sure. So I think a number off lessons for us on this journey Assistances, This is Ah, we're at the start of a journey of understanding the power off the what three d imaging can bring just to providing a consistent use variable care, but also as a stem also alluded to in terms of off the patient understanding, I think that patient understanding is one of the huge leap forwards that way. Didn't set out initially thinking we're going to be able to help educate on better inform patients. But that was one of the derive benefits suddenly part. So that was a great lesson. I think there is incredible levels of adoption that we're starting to see across the US across Europe because it's so easy to adopt. Compared to traditional methods, surgeons registered for Canadian start transacting and instead of us almost as opposed to having to have these huge I t programs. So I think we're now starting to really scratch the surface and start seeing the benefits of this isn't an administrative system. It's not me. HR system. It's not a finance system. Or maybe a healthcare was comfortable. And using public like this is core hard core clinical services, clinical diagnosis. Clinical education on the Amazon cloud is enabling that it just wouldn't be possible with this technology we started. Actually, the lessons were learning or just just >>Dr Tim Brown and take us home and the segment with your take lessons learned and advice to others. >>I think the lessons learned are the doctors and health care providers are all extremely wary off change of new innovations because they feel that already they're overburdened. Probably my colleagues in the states and across Europe perfectly like they were a bit over, burdened by all the things that we have to do, and this may potentially have been more difficult or wants to your workloads. And actually, let's make your workload along each year convincing people and getting people to understand that this really does make your life a lot easier. It actually removes all the scar tissue, removes the difficulties that have been put in place by by organizations on once. People realize that, that's what that there is no heavy lifting. And this will make a huge difference to your practices, your patients understanding of your practice, and we'll stop so people really realize that the tipping point will be achieved. I'm looking forward to that day because this this is going to be the new normal in the next 5 to 10 years. >>While the performance that you're putting up the numbers of 90 transplant successfully over six weeks dwarfs the full year, last year really kind of shows the outcome is a game changer. And again, congratulations on your success. Roger think Thank you for coming on Corrections on being the award winner. Eight of his partner for the most innovative AI and machine learning solutions. Thanks for taking the time for this 80 s partner awards program. Thank you. >>Thank you. >>Okay, I'm John Furrier. We're covering the AWS Public Sector Partner Awards program put on by the Cube and AWS Public Sector Partners. Thanks for watching. Yeah, Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

>> Narrator: Live from Austin, Texas, it's theCUBE, covering KubeCon and CloudNativeCon 2017, brought to you by Red Hat, the Linux Foundation, and theCUBE's ecosystem partners. >> Okay, welcome back, everyone. This is theCUBE's exclusive coverage live here in Austin, Texas for the CNCF's two conferences, CloudNativeCon, which was yesterday, and two days, today and tomorrow, KubeCon for Kubernetes' conference. This is theCUBE, of course, from SiliconANGLE Media. I'm John Furrier with my cohost, Stu Miniman. Our next guest, Dan Kohn, is the executive director of the CNCF, the man who put it all together. Congratulations. Welcome back to theCUBE. Good to see you. >> Oh, absolutely. Thrilled to have you guys back here again. >> So you kind of doing a victory lap here now, high fiving each other? >> Dan: Great hugs. >> John: Great event. >> Laughing: I'm glad it's a good event, and I am hearing fantastic feedback that folks are thrilled to be here. But we sort of describe this moment for the organization and the community as being the end of the beginning. >> John: Yeah. >> Where we now have all the major cloud vendors, all of the biggest enterprise software companies. We have a core group of 14 projects anchored by Kubernetes, but tons and tons of work in front of us. >> And tons of success, so I'm just going to read a couple of highlights from yesterday. There's a lot today. Baidu joins the CNCF, a lot of scaling production application examples, 31 new silver end-user members joined, Alibaba Cloud update to platinum, CoreDNS 1.0, Containerd, Fluentd, Jaeger, tons of news. Obviously, we've been pumping out the coverage. Today, again, more and more great goodness. But really interesting is that you guys have put a frame around this community to allow it to grow, to fertilize the open source vibe, which is all cloud but yet scaled. And you put up a slide I want to get your reaction to that I thought was compelling yesterday during your keynote. It was the flywheel, circle, and it said projects, products, profit. >> Dan: Right. >> And not that you're promoting profit, but you're not hiding the ball, either, saying, hey, you know what? There's a lot of commercial interest in cloud, obviously. We saw AWS' success last week. And that is if you create good products in this community framework, there's profit to be had. >> Right. So first of all, I should admit to plagiarizing that slide from Linux Foundation Executive Director Jim Zemlin. >> And similarly, I think you can look at a lot of aspects... >> It's an open source feature. >> Dan: Yes. >> Free for you to use. >> John: Right. >> Similarly, I think there's a lot of ways in which Kubernetes is trying to build on the success of Linux. And Jim even describes Kubernetes as the Linux of the cloud. >> John: Yeah. >> Stu: Yeah. >> John: That's a good point. >> Dan, one of the things we've been talking around Kubernetes is you talk about scale. >> Dan: Right. >> Talk about scale of the CNCF. You have 4 to 14 projects. People are a little worried when you get all the vendors around here and there's all these projects. It's a foundation thing, it's going to go off the rails. >> Dan: Yeah. >> Customers aren't going to have a voice. How do we make sure we kind of learn from some of the things that other projects have had challenges with in the past? >> And I think that's our advantage, which is the great thing about coming later than some of the other foundations, is we can look at where they had successes and where they had issues. And our aspiration for CNCF is to get to go make entirely new mistakes rather than replicating some of the issues that have come before. And so really from the beginning of CNCF, we had a somewhat unusual and frankly a little bit cumbersome charter where I describe it at times as a three-ring circus. We have a governing board made up of the vendors that are putting a lot of money into the community, but they don't get to run the projects and they don't even get to pick the projects. Instead, they appoint six of the nine members of an independent technical oversight committee, kind of like the Supreme Court. And then we have a third group in the end-user community that I'm thrilled to say is now up to 28 members in it. They appoint one of those folks. We finally got that working. We have Sam Lambert, the director of infrastructure at GitHub, who has just made a huge commitment to Kubernetes and is moving all their infrastructure over into it. Those seven appoint the last two. And so that body, and they just had their public meeting a couple hours ago. They feel very strongly about their independence, about their reputation, that they're trying to make very good judgments based on what they're seeing in the marketplace. >> That's interesting, the three-ring circle. I like how you put it. But let's talk about the end-user piece because I think that's critical. One of the things we were commenting earlier from the Lyft folks was you have a lot of end users who have built some large-scale systems out of their own sheer necessity. >> Dan: Definitely. >> And that is now being donated in. We saw Kubernetes come in with, you shepherded beautifully, went from Google, but you've got Lyft donating an amazing product convoy. >> This first convoy has a huge amount of excitement. And what was fun was, actually, on the same stage that they contributed back in LA in September, Uber contributed a separate project. Now, unlike Uber and Lyft, the two projects are in no way competitive- >> John: Yeah. >> Like Jaeger is really fantastic tracing one. But what they have in common is that they're companies that have had to grow from nothing to extremely high scale and then had problems that they solved. And they wanted to share that expertise with us. >> I want to get your thoughts on this. Because we've been speculating, on theCUBE, we've been kind of thinking, an editorial, but just that this is all good business. Now, that's pretty obvious, right? You're starting to see this kind of contribution, the gifts that keep on giving. These are significant code. >> Dan: Yeah. >> Not like, okay, let's start a little group and huddle and build something organically. You have real goodness coming in from Google, Uber, Lyft, and there's a million others. >> Dan: Right. >> How is that changing the game? Certainly accelerating it. That's really bringing goods to the table. >> Right. I think the whole... >> You have to manage it. >> Well, and for what it's worth, I don't actually manage the projects. And so we do provide a set of services- >> John: The community? >> -to them and we help them, we market them. But one of the unusual aspects of CNCF is that the projects do actually manage themselves. A little bit of guidance from the TOC, but we really are unusual in that sense. And that's one of the reasons the projects have been... >> And what's interesting is, to connect the dots, though, one step further, you're talking about a commercial entity donating massive intellectual property in the open for all the goodness of everyone else. But yet that flywheel is continuing. They're still using it. So it is inherently commercial dynamic. >> Right. And back to that circle, I think really the underlying concept is that companies agree that sharing key parts of their infrastructure has a huge amount of value to the whole ecosystem, to each other. And then they're absolutely eager to compete above that. And so you can look at it with the public clouds where we have now Amazon, Microsoft, Google, Alibaba, IBM, Oracle all at the table. They are absolutely fierce competitors. But they're saying that this specific software infrastructure layer isn't the area that they want to compete. They want to compete on all the value-added services, customer service, et cetera. >> Dan, I wonder if you can speak to how CNCF connects to some of the broader communities out there. Things like Kata containers got announced coming out of the OpenStack group. You've got a serverless track happening here, kind of extends some of where Kubernetes is going. How does CNCF fit into the broader... >> Sure. And it's definitely the case that all the innovation out there cannot happen in CNCF. Most obviously, everything that we do, almost everything depends on Linux. And so that's our parent organization, the Linux Foundation. But we've had a good collaboration with Jonathan Bryce from OverStack. They have two booths on the floor here at the show. And we've spoken to Clear Containers and RunV, the two predecessors in the past. But the part that I'm particularly pleased with for Kata containers is that it is an OCI-compliant runtime, that's another sister organization, and is really designed to work well for Kubernetes. And then they can pitch that and let the market go decide which container runtimes they find the most valuable. >> Obviously a lot of traction here in terms of the sentiment around service meshes and pluggable lock-in textures. That's been very cool. But security came up. So I want to get your thoughts around security, obviously storage and these older models around how to deal with storage and networking. Obviously, always in the action. >> Yeah. >> But security is top of mind for everyone. How is that being addressed? You know, talk is out there... >> Sure. I mean our philosophy on this is that moving to cloud-native and particularly the continuous integration and continuous development that goes along with that is the most important step that you can do to help secure your infrastructure. And Equifax is the example everyone always brings up. But there was a case where they were using known insecure software and they didn't have the processes up to place where instead of doing quarterly updates or monthly updates, you want to be doing dozens of updates per day. And a cloud-native infrastructure allows you to do that. >> What's next for you? Because you've got great traction with both community response, and the community has been absolutely amazing, the quality of people, level has been great, but also at the funding sponsors. You've got a lot of people that are involved. What's next? What happens next? What do you envision happening? What's the plan, and then how do you view that evolving? >> Well, I hate to fall into the buzzword implosion here, but if you go back to the crossing the chasm metaphor, I think we're still very much just in the early adopter phase. 2018 could very well be the moment that we jump over to the early majority. And I do feel like this whole community now has the velocity to do that and that we're on track for it. But as that happens, there's just far, far more people who need to be educated so they understand the projects and the options and how to work with them. And then hopefully they go from just being consumers of these technologies to contributors and that we can welcome them into our community and hopefully get the advantage of their expertise as well. >> I want to get your thoughts on a comment that Stu and I were talking about. Stu, you and I were talking about the notion of value creation above the stack, and then how Kubernetes, although some could say being commoditized, but it's also creating value because with that consistency of Kubernetes, you can now create value. So we believe, and I want to get your reaction to this, because we think a whole new ecosystem dynamic will emerge of a new kind of ecosystem. And if this new app developer combined with software engineering, which is really going on, you're talking about the cloud, the app developers will just build in value, that value creation will be rewarded. That's where monetization will be happening. >> And if I could build off that... >> John: Yeah. >> Dan, I loved one of your opening comments. You quoted, "exciting times for boring infrastructure, "maybe too exciting." So this week we've been teasing out there's a lot of work to make that infrastructure boring. You've got everybody on this floor, the CNCF board, lots of new projects making that. Where the action is and what this is going to create is that application monetization and the speed and agility of being able to create these cool new cloud-native applications out there. So it's interesting dynamic, spans broad pieces of this, layers of the stack there. >> Yeah. Well, I will point out that there was an odd level of unanimity of just a ton of different leaders in the community, in keynotes from Craig McLuckie and Chen Goldberg and others where they all agree that Kubernetes is not by any means the ultimate answer or the final answer. I think everybody now expects to see Kubernetes as a core aspect of the infrastructure for software for the next decade or more. But there's a belief that there's a whole ton of value that needs to be added above it, particularly to try and show for a regular application developer who just has a PHP app or no-GS microservices or anything else what's the easiest way to go from having a piece of software and deploying it effectively. >> Dan, so it's interesting. You watch the people on the outside. They're like, oh, look at Kubernetes. They're all holding hands and saying Kumbaya. We know there's some spirited debates that happen- >> Dan: Definitely. >> In the code, some projects that are sometimes competing up there. Why has the community come together, and where are some of the areas that we still need to work on and improve to help customers going forward? >> And again, I think they have the big advantage of having watched other communities that didn't value community and consensus and the ability to work through their issues. And so thankfully, we just have a ton of really capable engineers who also have some of those social or personal qualities that they care about working these things out. And to date, at least, I think most of those disagreements have been settled pretty amicably and in a positive direction. I think there's still huge swathes of this space that are still up in the air. Storage is an obvious one where there's a ton of work going on in a storage working group of CNCF. Serverless is another where I think everyone agrees that the application deployment model of AWS Lambda is really exciting and has things that people should replicate and should be brought over to Kubernetes. But how that should happen, what the software is, et cetera, there's still, in fact, we have our first serverless track today here at KubeCon where several different competing approaches are all talking about what they'd like to do. >> Awesome stuff. And you also announced some dates for next year, December 11 and 13 in Seattle. >> Dan: Yes. >> Okay. >> Dan: That's a year from now. >> November 14 and 15 in Shanghai. >> Now, you and I met in Hangzhou in the lobby, which was just amazing. But I certainly am hoping to convince you to go back to China with us. This will be our first event... >> I got a three-year visa. >> Good, yeah, that's the exactly right one. But this will be our first event in China, which I think is just a huge opportunity. We now have Baidu, Tencent, Huawai, ZTE, a number of startups. There's just so much excitement for this space over there that we're really excited to satisfy. >> Stu: And Copenhagen in May. >> And that's the last one. Thank you. May 2 to 4 in Copenhagen, and we're really excited for the event, to bring it to Europe and the rest of the world. >> Okay. So you've been working like a dog, you've been working hard. I've seen you in China. It's serendipitous. But it's not without being mentioned that this has been great effort by your team and the Linux Foundation and Jim and the whole team. But congratulations. Are you having a pinch me moment? I know it's too early to do a victory lap. >> But you've got to be pretty excited. >> Yeah. It really has been a great thing for the foundation that we sort of accomplished many of our 2018 and 2019 goals this year. But I'm sure we're going to find plenty of stuff to do next year. >> And your goal for the next 6 to 12 months, what's on your top three to-do's, continue the momentum? Share your API for... >> Yeah. What's great is that we really have plenty of members. We'd always like to add new ones and serve the ones we have better. But right now, the focus is really about providing better services to our projects. All of them feel overworked. They would love help on documentation, on marketing, on messaging about it, and some of them need help with testing development and other things. So that's really what we're buckling down on. >> Great community are going to test them, being here on the ground, personally present at creation. And I was standing there with J.J. and Lew Tucker, OpenStack three years ago, talking about Kubernetes. We were kind of ripping. We couldn't have imagined, then, obviously, they bolted it on last year with your event. Now second year here, huge community... >> But you have 4,100 folks here, is more than the previous four events combined. >> Yeah, awesome. >> So it really is exciting. >> TheCUBE, always on the ground. And sometimes the squirrel finds a nut. We found a cloud-native foundation, part of the Linux Foundation. CNCF, Cloud-Native Compute Foundation, really a new, growing, and relevant community for cloud and a new way to do software and reimagine the future from software engineering to full application development, a new way. This is theCUBE's coverage, and we are here live in Austin. More live coverage after this short break. We'll be right back. [Techno Music]

(cheerful music) >> Voiceover: Live, from Los Angeles, it's theCUBE covering Open Source Summit North America 2017, brought to you by the Linux Foundation and Red Hat. >> Okay, welcome back here when we're here live with theCUBE coverage of Linux Foundation Open Source Summit North America in Los Angeles, I'm John Furrier, Stu Miniman, our next guest is Arpit Joshipura, General Manager of Networking the Linux Foundation. Welcome back to theCUBE, great to see you. >> Thank you, nice to be here again. >> Always good to talk networking, as Stu and I always say networking is probably the most active audience in our community, because at the end of the day, everything rolls downhill to networking when the people complain. It's like "where the hell's my WiFi, "where's the patent latency," networking SDN was supposed to solve all that. Stu, we're still talking about networking. When are we going to fix the network? It's always in the network, but important. In all seriousness, a lot of action continues and innovation to networking. >> Absolutely. >> What's the update? >> Update is very exciting. So first of all, I can confidently say that open source networking, not just networking, but open source networking is now mainstream. And it's mainstream in the telcos, in the carriers, service providers, it's getting there in the enterprise. And Linux Foundation is really proud to host eight of the top 10 projects that are in open source networking. ONAP, ODL, OPNFV, Fido, you know, the list goes on. And we're really excited about each of these projects, so good momentum. >> We've been seeing and talking about it too, we all, joking aside, the intro there, but in all seriousness we've been saying, we get better the network, it's finally happening. Has it been a maturization of the network itself, has it been industry force and what have been the forces of innovations been? OpenStack has done some great work, they're not getting a lot of love these days with some people, but still we've seen a lot of production workflows at OpenStack, OpenStack's still there, rocking and rolling. New projects are onboarding, you see the telcos getting business models around digital. What's the drivers? Why is network mainstream now? >> I think it's a very simple answer to that, and that is before 5G and IoT hit the market, network better be automated. It's a very simple requirement. And the reason is very self-explanatory, right? You can't have an IoT device on the call on hold while you get your service up (laughs). So, it's IoT, right? And it is the same thing on 5G, a lot of new use cases around cars or around low latency apps. You need automation, and in order to have automation, a carrier or a solution provider goes through a simple journey. Am I virtualized? Yes or no? Am I using the building blocks of SDN and NFV? Yes or no? And the third, which is now reality, which is, am I using open source to do it? Yes, and I'm going to do it. And that's the driver right? I mean it's all- >> Automation, when you started throwing out a lot of TLAs, you talk about SDN and NFV, we've got a four-letter acronym that we need to talk about. The Open Network Automation Platform. Why don't you bring your audience up to speed, what that is, the news that you have this week. >> Absolutely, so ONAP was launched earlier in 2017. It's a combination of two open source projects, ECOMP and Open-O, and we wanted to bring the community together versus sort of fragmented, and because our end users are asking for a harmonized solution. So we brought it together. It was launched earlier this year as we talked about, but the most significant thing is it has received tremendous support from the member community. So at OSS today, we just announced that Vodafone has joined as a platinum member. They will be on our board, and as you know Vodafone is one of the top providers. So if you add up all the subscribers that are being influenced by ONAP, they come to 55%. So out of the 4.5 billion subscribers that exist, more than 55% will be influenced by ONAP and the work that happens. That includes China Mobile, China Telecom, China Unicom, all of the China, Bell Canada, AT&T obviously who sort of was the founding member, Orange, Reliance Jio from India. So we've got, Comcast joined earlier in the quarter, so we've got cable companies, carriers, all joining. And to be very honest, I'll probably just give you the list of all the networking vendors that are participating here, and I've list Amdocs, Cisco, Ericsson, GigaSpaces, Hua Wei, IBM, Intel, Nokia, Tech Mahindra, VMware, ZTE, Juniper, you know, you name it. >> Arpit, I mean the long story short is-- >> Just cause they're involved does that mean they're actually working-- >> They're active. Active. >> we're not going to be critical on this. >> But come on, even Cisco's involved in the open source stuff, right? >> They've very active. >> We've had lots of guests on from Cisco, Lulu Tucker's been on many many times. We know the open source there, but it used to be, networking was very proprietary. Now, it wasn't SDNs going to totally change everything, it's lots of different pieces, lots of different projects. It kind of felt like the river slowly wearing down the mountain as to this transition from proprietary to open source. >> I think what happened is if you just look at four years back, it was proprietary. Not because people liked it, that was the only game in town. When the open source industry, especially in the networking, and this is a hundred year old industry, telecom right? When it came in in the desegregated manner, hardware and software separated, control plane separated from data plane, all of that happened, and what happened suddenly was each components started becoming mature. So they're production-ready components, and what ONAP and what Linux Foundation is intending to do this year is trying to bring all the components into a system solution. So that it's easy to deploy, and all you have to do is point, click a service, everything below it will all be automated and integrated. >> Well the telcos are under a lot of pressure. I mean this has been a decade run, over-the-top they've been struggling with that from years ago, decade ago or more. But now they're getting their act together. We're seeing some signs, even VMworld. Stu, Pat Gelsinger said 5G's the next big kahuna in networking the next 20 years, you can validate it. This is going to be a 20 year changeover, so as the Linux Foundation, which essentially is the organic growth engine for this community, what do you guys see in that 20 years? Cause I see 5G's going to create all these connection points. IoT is going to be massive. That's going to increase the surface area for potential attacks. We're seeing a networking paradigm that's moving from old guards Cisco, Juniper, and some of the names you mentioned. They got to make some changes. How are they adjusting? What's going on so the next 20 years we don't have more conflict and more identity politics. >> I'll tell you one thing, I come from a vendor community, right? So I really appreciate the work they're doing. Part of the reason you would have seen in the past a vendor dragging their feet is because of fragmentation in the community. You as a vendor do not know where to put your resources, people, and where you put your money. What we're doing at the Linux Foundation is starting to harmonize all that. And once you do that and you have enough of a scale and enough of a community, there is no shortage of people and developers that the vendors are contributing to. >> John: What's some of the proof points that you can share? >> Okay, so ONAP, from start to now, about 1100 Wiki members already. That means 1100 unique developers are joining the project. Over 50 members. We ran out of VMs, I mean it's like that has not happened in any project for over five years. We had to fire up people more. So you can see that... And this is not just, these are competitors, but if you step back and look at it, they're competitors from an end user perspective, but they're solving the common problem in which they don't get any money. They don't make any money. These are things that absolutely need to happen. The plumbing, the infrastructure, the orchestration, the control layer, the data plane layer, all of that need to just happen, it should just work. And let them differentiate on top. We are actively seeing almost everybody participating significantly. >> Stu, let's hear your thoughts on this. You guys are both, I view you guys both as experts and influencers in this networking ecosystem, so I got to ask you both a question. CNCF has gotten a lot of traction with funding, sponsorships are off the charts, you're seeing massive tractions, Stu, where you also see that KubeCon Cloud Native, but you have native clouds, I call them native clouds, in Amazon and then soon-to-be enterprises that want to run software-defined networking. So the question is do you see the same kind of support going for your group as CNCF's getting? Is it just fashionable at this point, CNCF? Why isn't the networking getting as much love at least from a sponsorship standpoint. >> Let's define love. So if you define love as the 2017 ONS, which is our largest networking summit, we grew that 10%, everything was off the charts. The feedback, the content-- >> John: The attendance growth or sponsorships? >> Attendance, sponsorships, CFPs were 5x oversubscribed. Call for papers, for submissions, 5x oversubscribed. So we had a hard time picking the best of the best. ONS 2018 is going to be here in LA, we've already started getting requests on, you know, so we're the same boat. >> So you feel good. >> We feel good. >> Not about this, like you're winning. >> No, but I tell you-- >> There'll be positive numbers we know from the hype scale horses, Stu, answer your question and then maybe you guys can comment. So is it a matter of that there's more buzz in positioning involved in the hype side of CNCF now, and there's just meat and potatoes being done in the networking world, Stu? Cause you and I both know, if no one has nothing to say, they've got to kind of market themselves. >> So John, think back to five years ago, how much hype and buzz there was around SDN. John, you and I interviewed like Martin Casado, he just bought for $1.4 billion, all these startups, lots of VC investment, so I think we're further down the maturity curve. Now networking's always-- >> John: People going to work, they're doing their job. >> It's real, it's in production-- >> It's funny-- >> It's not parb, I always say when you move from PowerPoint to production, real things happen. >> I always say, if there's going to be sizzle, I better see some steak on the grill, so what's happening is steak is cooking right now. >> And John, so one of the things we say, networking, no offense to all my friends in networking, networking is never sexy. >> Oh, come on Stu, networking is totally sexy. >> I always say it's cool again. >> Networking has never lost its edge. >> It absolutely is majorly important, but Arpit, take us in, you know, Kubernetes is hot, containers get a lot of buzz and everything. Networking, critical piece of making sure that this works, feels like, I think back to the virtualization days, it took us 10 years to kind of solve those things that that abstraction layer broke. It feels like networking is further ahead than it was, it's moving faster, we understand it's not something that's just kind of oh we'll let the networking guys get to it eventually. Networking and security, which often has that networking tie are front and center now. >> Very good point, and I think what you have to also sort of step back and look at is what are the problems that need to be solved from an end user perspective? So the hardest networking problems at the data plane control layers, check. Next big problem that remain to be solved was orchestration, data analytics, and things like that. Check, solve, with ONAP. Now the next problems that need to be solved are containerization of enterprise app, which is where Kubernetes and... and then how does containerization work with networking? That's all the C&I, the interfaces. I would say next year, you will start to see the interworking and the blend of these "hot projects" where they can all come together. >> Stu, you were there in 2010, I looked right in the camera and said to Dave Vellante, storage is not as sexy. And Dave called it snoreage, cause snoreage is boring. (Stu laughs) >> And at that time, the storage industry went on a run. And we well-documented that. Sexy is, networking is sexy. And I think that we-- >> I call it cool. >> And I just tweeted, 25g is a good indicator of a 20 year run, and networking is the big kahuna as Pat Gelsinger said in IoT, so I think, Stu, I think it's going to be very apparent, sexy. I just don't see a lot of amplifications, so you don't see a lot of people marketing the sizzle. I think, being done I would agree, but Stu, there's more buzz and hype on the CNCF side than networking. >> That's fair. I think it is always as you said, it's the initial phase of any project that gets a lot of clicks and a lot of interest, and people want to know about it. A lot of the buzz is around, just awareness. The classic marketing cycle, and I think we're past that. It was therefore ONAP in January, we're past that. >> Alright, so here's the question, final question. So the steak is coming off the grill in our metaphor here, what are people-- what is that product, what's happening, what is the big deliverable right now from a networking standpoint that people can bet on and know that they can cross the bridge into the future with it. >> You will see a visible difference, you as in an end user, an enterprise, or a residential consumer. You will see a significant difference in terms of how you get services. It's as simple as that. Why? Because it's all automated. Network on-demand, disaster recovery, video conference services. Why did over-the-top players, why were they so successful? If you need a Gmail ID, you go in, you get one. It's right there. Try getting a T1 line five years ago. That would be six weeks, six months. So with the automation in place, the models are converging. >> So provisionings are automatically happening-- >> Provisionings, service, and then the thing that you will not see but you will see in the services impact, is the closed loop automation that has all the analytics built in. Huge, huge. I mean, network is the richest source, and by the way, I'll come back next year and I'll tell you why we are cool again. Because all of a sudden, it's like oh my god look at that data and the analytics that the network is giving me. What can I do with it? You can do AI, you can do machine learning, you can do all these things. >> Well, we're looking forward to it, the eye of the storm is kind of happening now I think in networking, Stu and I always have debates about this, cause we see a lot of great action. Question is, let's see the proof points, you guys are doing some good work. Thanks for sharing, Arpit, really appreciate, General Manager of Networking at Linux Foundation. It's theCUBE, more live coverage from Los Angeles, the Open Source Summit North America. I'm John Furrier, Stu Miniman, be back with more live coverage after this short break. (techno music)

(upbeat music) >> Narrator: Live from Boston Massachusetts, it's The CUBE covering OpenStack Summit 2017, brought to you by the OpenStack Foundation, Red Hat and additional ecosystem support. >> Welcome back, I'm Stu Miniman joined by my co-host John Troyer. You're watching The CUBE, the worldwide leader in live tech coverage. Happy to welcome to the program Darrell Jordan-Smith who's the Vice President of Telecommunications at Red Hat. Thanks so much for joining us. >> It's great to be here thank you >> All right so Darrell last year at the show you know the telcos were like all in force. I got to interview Verizon. We're going to have Beth who was on the keynote stage on Monday on our coverage tomorrow. I know they're a Red Hat customer. When I hear at Red Hat summit, there were some really big telcos that are red hat customers. So to tell us why telco and OpenStack you know go so well together these days? >> Well telcos are looking for a open source for innovation. They need to change the way that they deliver services today and modernize their network infrastructure to become more agile, and a lot of them are doing that because of 5G, the next generation of services that they will be deploying over their network infrastructure. They can't do that unless they have an agile infrastructure fabric and an agile software capability to deliver those applications over those networks. >> All right well there's a lot to dig into yet. Let's start with NFV was the use case last year. Well 5G IOT definitely want to get into though but my understanding, I simplified it. NFV is just how the telcos can help deliver via software services they have. I mean think about how your set-top box, I can get channels and I can get certain programming. Is that kind of what you see, and how do they do their business model? >> Yeah traditionally, they bought appliances, hardware specific appliances. They put them in network operation centers and many thousands of those around the world. In the US there's tens of thousands of them. They're really moving more to a software based model where they don't necessarily need to buy a fixed appliance with its own silicone. They're going with commercial off-the-shelf x86 based technology and they're actually deploying that in what I call next generation data centers around Open Compute platform being an architecture, where you're looking at storage, compute, networking in a scalable fashion using open source technologies to deploy that in at massive scale. >> Very different from you think about like cloud might be a place where you have services run but the telcos are pushing services with their software out to their consumers. >> Yeah they're changing the core network infrastructure to support that and at the mobile edge in these network operation centers at the edge, they're making those more agile as well in order to push as many services out closely to the customer but also to aggregate content and data that their customers would acquire. So for example, you take a video clip on your phone, there's no point in storing that in the core of the network. You want to maybe store that at the edge, where maybe some of your friends would share it at that point in time, more efficient ways of drive that. >> I wonder if you can expand a little bit. That that term edge because we hear is that the edge of the network? Is that a mobile device? Is that a sensor for IOT in the telecom world? Is it all of the above? >> Well a lot of people use it is all the above but in the context I'm using it, it's at the edge of the network. It's not the device. That is a whole separate set of conversations, and things reach a very IOT-centric. At the moment, the telecommunications companies want to make the edge more efficient. They want to build clouds around the edge. They want to aggregate all those different clouds, and they want to build agile based infrastructure. So similarly to the way that Facebook, Amazon, Netflix, Google deliver their services today, they need to get into that space in order to be agile enough to develop and deploy their next generation of applications and services. >> So at this point OpenStack in its evolution with this customer vertical, it seems like we're not only talking about a cloud but maybe a cloud of clouds. >> Yes absolutely, I mean telcos again, they typically have one of everything. They are looking at decoupled solutions in terms of their network-based infrastructure. They want to be able to manage every layer of that infrastructure independently of the other layers in order to drive maximum flexibility and agility into their infrastructure but also so they don't get locked in to any one particular vendor. That's a big, big theme in the telco space. >> So you use the words agility and flexibility. So I in a previous lifetime, I did work with some telecom providers and they were not known for those words of agility and flexibility. We're in a world now with open source, with CICD, we talked about upgradability, a lot of the talk here at OpenStack is about manageability and flexibility and building, putting containers on top. Maybe we can go there next but do you, as you work with your customers and partners in the telecom space. It seems like they've had to have a cultural shift. I see a lot of people from the carriers here, right. They're as long haired and shaggy, and barefoot as any other engineer here at OpenStack summit. Has there been a real cultural shift inside telecom to accomplish this? >> Yeah, there's a real cultural shift that's ongoing. It's got a ways to go. The telcos themselves are engineeringly orientated. So they traditionally have come from an environment where we'll build it and customers will come. Now they're looking at we need to build it quicker and faster in order to attract customers, get them to come and view our services, get them addicted to a certain degree. Maybe the wrong word but to our content. So building sticky services, trying to reduce the churn they have in their business, driving innovation through open source because I think they've realized that innovation isn't necessarily within their own company. It sits elsewhere so which is the new Uber as it were? Which is new Airbnb? What is the new WhatsApp-based application? They want to create a network infrastructure that's flexible enough with all of those attributes through API so those companies can develop innovative next-generation content and services over their network infrastructure, in order to attract and make services sticky for their customers. >> Darrell, I wonder if you can speak to the complexity of the solutions in the telco space? Last year we spoke to Verizon, and they love what they have but they had to choose some glass, walk over some hot coals to be able to get the solution together. These are big complicated solutions. We've talked in general about OpenStack, and trying to simplify some of the complexity but can you speak to some of the how long it takes to roll these out and some of the effort involved for the telcos? >> Well it's it's sort of a walk, a cruel walk run process to a lot of that because A working with open source is very different than what they traditionally have done, and as you mentioned earlier, traditionally they'll buy an application through our appliance. They'll take nine months to deploy in all their centers. Then another three to six months later, they might switch it off. In the software agile world, they've got to condense that sort of 12 to 18 month period down to maybe three or four weeks. They may stand up a service for an event like the Olympics and then take it down after the Olympics. So there's a lot of complexity and change in the way that they need to deliver those services, and that complexity isn't trivial. So it involves delivering quality of service through the deployment of next generation network infrastructure because they are regulated companies. So they've got to maintain that quality of service in order to be able to bill, and meet the regulations that they they have to adhere to in the markets that they operate their network infrastructure. Very different from the Googles, the Facebooks of the world. They don't have that sort of regulation over their head. The telcos do so they have a level of discipline that they need to achieve in terms of availability of their network infrastructure, the availability of their services, the availability of their applications, and that links into a whole quality of service experience for their customers, and linked into their operation systems support, into their billing system and the list goes on, and on and on. So what we found at Red Hat is that, that is not trivial, that is hard, and a lot of the telcos are very engineeringly oriented. It's great working with them because they really understand the difficulties, and the fact that this is particularly hard. They also know that they want to build it and own it, and understand it themselves, because it's their business model. To them, the network is an asset. It's not something that they can just outsource to someone else, that doesn't necessarily understand that same degree of that asset. So they want to get their heads around that. >> So they need that reliability. From the eyes of a service provider how mature is OpenStack right now? Is it in production? Can they trust it? We're a few more than a few years into the OpenStack evolution so where are we in deployment? >> That, number of operators are in deployment. You mentioned one on a few months ago like Verizon. >> Stu: Yeah, AT&T is on stage. >> Absolutely, AT&T-- >> Deutsche Telekom, the headlines sponsored the event. >> Exactly, I mean, and what they're doing is they're starting very pragmatically. They're looking at specific services, and they're building slowly a service upon service upon service so they go from a crawl to walking, then to a run. I think, what we're seeing in OpenStack is not if but when these guys will deploy at mass scale. We're beginning now to see a general acceptance that this is a methodology and or a technology that they can deploy and will deploy in the NFE context. The other thing that's occurring in the space is they're looking at traditional IT workloads. So a telco-based cloud if you want to use that terminology is just as capable of running IT-based workloads and services as well. So a number of them are looking at their own enterprise and running those environments. Some of them are partnering with some of our partners to build OpenStack public cloud instances. So they want to try and attract services to that environment as well. >> It's interesting you point that out. There's been that ebbing flow of can the telco players be cloud as John pointed out. I worked in telecommunications back in the '90s. Agile and fast was not the thing of the day. One of the big companies who had bought a cloud company just sold off lots of their data centers. Do they feel that they're going to compete against the Amazon, Microsoft, Googles of the world? Do they think they'll be service providers? Where do they see is their natural fit in the cloud ecosystem? >> So my role is on a global basis. In North America, they don't want to, I don't think they feel they can compete in the way that you were intimating in that regard. However, where they do think they can compete and since we're going to probably talk about 5G and IOT, that is the area where they see public cloud applications and services being developed. So they're looking at the insurance industry, the automotive industry, the manufacturing industry, and creating an environment where those applications can be built to many many thousands of millions of devices connected to them. So I think the definition of in North America, of a public cloud infrastructure is going to evolve in that direction. In other markets such as Latin America and in Europe, some of the telecommunications companies believe that they can be competitive in that space. So more recently, Orange announced that they're working with OpenStack to deploy public cloud. Telefonica, Deutsche Telekom, China Mobile, America Movil, they're all using OpenStack to try and enter that specific market space. >> Okay, please talk to us about the 5G angles here. Obviously like Mobile World Congress, it was like be number one conversation. When we went to the Open Networking Summit, it was there. You're the first person to talk about it that I heard I didn't, maybe I missed it in one of the keynotes but you know none of our interviews has come out yet. So how does that fit into the OpenStack picture? >> So 5G is the reason why telcos are building NFEI, that they were NFE because they realize that to connect all of those devices to their network-based infrastructure, they need to do it intelligently, they need to do it at the edge, and they need to have a high degree of flexibility and agility to their network-based infrastructure to create an innovation environment for application developers to connect all those devices. So we talked about smart cars as a good example around 5G. You need low latency, you need the high availability, you need to be reliable, you need to provide all of that network infrastructure as an example plus you need a portfolio of developers that are going to create all sorts of different applications for those vehicles that we driving around on the street. So that without 5G, that does not happen. You're not, you know some metropolitan areas, the amount of connectivity that you have access to in terms of the traditional cloud-based access networking infrastructure doesn't facilitate the amount of density that 5G will actually facilitate. So you need to be able to change the basis in which you're building that infrastructure to lower the cost of the network in terms of being able to drive that. >> All right and I'm curious I think about the global reach we were just talking about. Usually, the global reach of a new technology like 5G lags a little bit in the rest of the world compared to Western Europe and North America. >> Well, I think in Asia, 5G is, if I look at what they're trying to do, the leading vendors ZTE, Samsung, Huawei, they're heavily invested in 5G-based infrastructure, and they don't have, their operators in those part of the world don't have an awful lot of legacy-based infrastructure to be able to have to replace. They can get there a lot faster. The other thing is with 5G, for them, the applications and services in the way that people experience network-based access or Internet if for want of another word is very different than way that maybe we experience it here in the US or in Europe. So I think you're going to see different applications and different business models evolve in different markets in Asia than you would say here in North America. In North America, I think that it's going to take a lot of the operators different business models to look at maybe some of the higher order of applications and services that drive stickiness for their own infrastructure and network services but also some of the more advanced applications like I mentioned smart cars or smart homes, or smart cities or energy or better ways of delivering products in terms of distribution to your home, those those types of applications and services we won't necessarily in some of those other markets be there and similarly for Europe. >> All right Darrell Jordan-Smith, really appreciate you joining us, giving us all the updates on telco, how it fits with OpenStack. Jon Troyer and I will be back with lots more coverage here from the OpenStack summit 2017 in Boston. You're watching The CUBE (upbeat music)