>>From the Bellagio hotel in Las Vegas, it's the cube covering UI path forward for brought to you by >>Hello from Las Vegas, live at the Bellagio. Lisa Martin, with Dave Volante. We are at UI path forward for, like I said, in Las Vegas. So great to be in person, sitting at an anchor desk with a co-anchor. And I guess we're going to be talking about deploying new technologies and a large global enterprise. Nikki Harris is here. Manage your application, performing platform engineering services at Chevron Vicky. Welcome to the program. Hey, thank >>You. Happy to be >>Here. So isn't it great to be we're outdoors. Nice that everyone's nice and safe, but great to be back at an in-person event where so many hallway conversations can spark more innovation. That's one of the things I think a lot of us have been missing in the last 18 months. You've been with Chevron almost 15 years, but this is, we're talking about 142 year old organization. Talk to me about the evolution of it that you've seen. >>Very happy to do that. Um, a lot of, uh, I would say the greatest jump forward we saw in cloud and we started our cloud transformation before digital transformation came along. Uh, but it was the, really the thing that enabled us to, uh, be ready, I would say for the extra value, the extra push. And so we were so happy to be well positioned. So we started our cloud journey in 2017 and, uh, between 2018 and 19, because of the investments in automation, it just took off and today we're still receiving the benefits of that. Um, but prior to that, it took a little bit longer. Uh, also we had an agile transformation, which was very helpful because we can't really afford to move at waterfall speed anymore. Um, and so cloud and agile really helped boost that and get us started. >>So whenever we get a practitioner on, we have a million questions. So, so can we start with your role? Are you in it, that's where you're in that organization or >>I am in it. So I'm a product line manager. We support really the core for software engineers and citizen developers. So on the software engineering side, CICB pipeline, dev ops tooling, code frameworks, all of that to make our software engineers more productive and on the citizen development side, same philosophy, we want to make them more productive, not worry about how do I do it, just how to apply their business logic. So we support the citizen development programs and the underlying platforms. >>So they gave, when you talked about cloud in 2017, are you talking about infrastructure as a service platform, as a service SAS, all of the above, cause cause you have to do, I'm sure you were doing SAS before then, but how do you think about cloud? >>So that's a great question. Yes. We were always doing SAS and we continue to do SAS. Uh, so, and Chevron was one of the earlier adopters of UI path for cloud. We do want to be cloud first, always, always, always. And we are trying to really reduce and restrict our on-prem footprint. Um, but the automation we started in kind of 20 17, 20 18 is, um, I would call it infrastructure as code. Uh, so deploying everything with code, um, the same way all the time, uh, which was partly a technical shift, but also a really big cultural shift that instead of having people doing the same task, you know, 400 different ways, which is hard to sustain, it's hard to troubleshoot. Uh, so we took the pain in, in building that and there's a lot of pain in, in the transformation itself, but the upside when you're finished is amazing. >>Yeah. So that's what you just answered. My next question, which was what is the catalyst? It was seeing the clouds potential for programmable infrastructure. And that sounds like it was a game changer. >>It was a huge game changer. And that really, uh, on the software engineering side, the whole way we do infrastructure, the way we program everything. Uh, but we also found we're not touching part of the organization with that transformation. And that's where the citizen development programs and RPA comes in is, you know, Hey, we're really proud of ourselves. We did so well, but how do we get to the edge, uh, where we haven't been able to have the same impact with that automation >>For an organization that I mentioned 142 years young will say, I guess you could say old for an organization young for a person where in, in terms of the cultural change, that's hard to, to manifest across such a historic history institution. Talk to me about the appetite for automation. You said you guys started doing automation, bringing it into the organization and in the last five years or so, what's been the appetite across different lines of business to embrace it, to see it as an advantage rather than taking jobs away. >>Uh, so there's never appetite for automation on its own because you're changing someone's process. Um, but what there is appetite for is the results. Uh, and also, uh, we went through a large organizational transformation. So in addition to value, um, you know, bottom line cost savings, we have people who are just improving their, their workflow for themselves. And so there's also a sense of empowerment for them. So I would say the empowerment and then the results are much bigger drivers. And then you say, oh, if you want that, yes, by the way, this is how we get that. But it's not, you know, automation for automation sake. Uh, but people understand, they understand now the value of it and they, the more they learn, they understand that, um, doing one process 25 ways, it's not a way to run your business, >>Right. How to actually drive this outcomes that they're looking for. >>So how did it start? When did it start in? It was an it led initiative or was it a department? >>It led, >>Yes. Okay. And so, so focused on the it department. So you automating certain tasks within it or, or not necessarily >>Necessarily. So, um, it led, but as the foundation for all the business units. So again, we focus on the core, but we also focus on enablement. So anybody who's a builder maker, developer out there in the business units, we just want to make their job easier, better, faster, um, just for the business logic. So then we'd bring them in and say, here's how you do it. Um, but they bring the best ideas, right? They know their business processes. I don't know their business processes. If I sat down and said, here's where automation value is, um, we wouldn't be doing so well. They know where it is. Uh, we just give them the tools to, to find that value. And you know, it's extraordinary how they find it. If there's a lot of manual processes out there, >>A common story, when you talk to UI path, customers, that'll start maybe one person in a department and then people looking over her shoulder going, oh, I want some of that. And then it explodes. It sounds like you were taking a much more whole house approach. >>We are taking a whole house approach, but we did start early with POC. Uh, and so, and then those proved their value pretty easily and pretty quickly. And so then it was a determination of, Hey, we would like to do something bigger here than just leave this technology out there. We're just leaving all this value on the table. We're leaving all this skill sets, all this passion, all this enthusiasm in our citizen community. We don't think we can transform as a corporation. If we leave that energy motivation skill on the table >>And some color to the ROI. Have you said to POC, you're a good, quick hit, obviously. Could you give us some details on that? What can you tell us? >>What can I tell you? Okay, well, so, um, from when we started the program three years, I think we're showing about $6 million of return. Um, we, we see the value just in time savings like everybody else does. And we have, so that's with about, um, 300 automations, six over 600,000 hours I think saved. Uh, but first year it's just so easy. You can see it. It's not hard to calculate it, the hour saving, very simple calculation. So anybody who's concerned about ROI, it's so simple, it's so easy. You should be able to find it in your first year if you're not finding it in your first year. Um, I mean, obviously it grows, but if you're not finding some return in the first year, I would say, you know, take a look at what you need to adjust because it's not that hard >>CFO. Sorry. One more question. If I may, and your CFO saw that, okay. Time-savings essentially was the business result, but it wasn't necessarily it, was it hard or were they, did your CFO say, ah, that's kind of soft dollars or is it >>Both hard and soft? So, and yeah, we would never put a dollar sign next to something that doesn't hit the income statement. So I'm very careful about that. Right. Um, but yeah, it's both because some times, um, somebody actually changed their group first and they're feeling the process pain after. And so the healing of automating something. So the, just the two people can do it. Uh, we've seen that use case as well. It's harder to capture any savings because it's not really savings there, but it's, it's um, more of a job satisfaction. So there's a lot of soft benefits that go with it, but we don't usually, you know, commit, turn that into dollars. That's not very valuable. Yeah. >>Use those employee Mo employees that are far more productive are eventually helping the customers be more productive as well. I think they're directly linked. Well, you said you found ROI quickly and that's something that you iPad says about itself that customers are generally achieving an ROI of a break even within months alone. So when you talk to other professionals in oil and gas, how do you talk to them about automation being really a critical driver of that business's success and transformation? >>Uh, I think in large enterprises, whether they're in our sector or not, some of them just struggle with the sheer scale, it's almost like, where do I start? So they do see the value. Uh, but it's more about how do I, how do I start this thing? How do I scale this thing? How do I structure a program? Um, I have not found anyone that says, I don't believe the value proposition again, it's pretty easy to do. >>And the RPA POC started after cloud. Right. So it was, am I right about that? It was 18, 19 timeframe. >>Uh, I would say actually starting around the same time were done in, in 2017. So yeah. >>And so, uh, was there anything specific in your industry that you targeted? I mean, you obviously wanted to hit the high value items first. Was there anything particular there? >>Um, that's a really good question. I think we, our journey looks like other companies kind of, they start with the back office. Those are the easiest processes to, for people to understand. And just in terms of, you know, where do I have a heavy manual load? Uh, so some of our first work was with finance in currency conversion. So pretty, pretty manual intensive for a global company. Pretty big deal, lots of immediate value. Uh, but if you think of, let's talk about Wells. So, you know, we have systems for mapping, Wells drilling, Wells, uh, you'd be surprised some of those systems look kind of like your ERP. They have kind of the same challenges. So, um, as we extend outside of traditional kind of HR finance audit practices into the rest of our business, the use cases are similar. Um, I've got disparate documents. I have systems that don't talk to each other. Well, I have somebody who S and we have a lot of partners. So if you're in a project with five partners and everybody's producing a different type of document or something, how do you make some sense out of that? Uh, so use cases like that, um, we're finding in our upstream and downstream businesses also, >>And you did an RFP at the time, wrote a bunch of vendors and ran them through the cycles or >>Comparisons yeah. Early on >>While UI path, what was it about >>Strong user experience? So, uh, because this is primarily citizen enabled and so that feedback, Hey, could I learn this quickly? Was it easy to use? Those were really the most important things in selection. I mean, we always look at costs that's important too. Um, but also a company's position. So their ability to scale and grow. Um, there's a lot of people in this market, uh, because of the interest in automation. Uh, so part of it is also understanding the strength of the company behind as well. >>One of the things that was mentioned in the keynote this morning, I think it was a stat from Gartner that in 2016, or was about 2% of, um, automateable processes were automated fast forward. Now it's about 25%. There's still a tremendous amount of potential for organizations and any industry to deploy automation. You've said, you've got about 300 plus automation so far. What are some of the things that are coming next that you can see, >>Sure. What is our upside, or where do we stop or our growth taper? Um, I don't think we know, uh, we get so much from our user community in terms of what can we do now? Um, there are so empowered, so I wouldn't want to set limits on ourselves in terms of what we can do. Uh, but certainly we're looking at, um, text analytics, really, how do we manage that document? How do we extract that data, use models to get that into our data lake? Uh, but there's still always the work of finding still that last mile of process. There's many parts of our business still untouched. And so we don't, we don't let, or we don't want to let up on that. That's still important to go after all of that and keep the programs going >>W Chevron huge company. And you've got probably one of everything that's ever been invented in technology. We're seeing a trend where a lot of these, these software companies are embedding RPA into their platforms. You see it with the ERP vendors, uh, uh, acquisitions being made for service management, you know, big cloud guys ha have, uh, you know, on and on and on. And, and so how do you think about those sort of vertically integrated stacks versus what you're doing with UI path? >>So for me, I think of them the same as a code extension. So, because that was more popular a few years ago on those big platforms and you're right, we have one of everything. Um, but it's important to when you think of investment and ROI, uh, where do we actually spend money? It's in maintaining the capability, keeping the programs, doing the training, that's an investment. And so when someone comes to me and says, can you support some other tool? Um, I usually say maybe not, is there a business case for that because we want to be able to deploy to the whole enterprise, um, that isn't to say that somebody who's got a workflow that stays within that platform, that that might be inappropriate use for them, but a very sure it's not an appropriate use to extend it out of that platform somewhere else. >>Uh, and so we draw the line really, what do we, enterprise automation. We want to be very careful about the tools we use for that. And, and the reason for that is not just security, reliability, and the ability to scale those programs. Because when someone calls me and says, my stuff doesn't scale, it's like ours does. Um, and so, but the org capability investment is also it's, it's not small. Uh, and so if you've got to believe in this, you have to keep feeding it. You have to keep training new people, bringing them on. Uh, and so you can't really do that across 12 platforms, right? >>You're creating your own flywheel and that's how you can accelerate ROI. Right? >>Correct. Although, you know, the citizen developers are driving the wheel for sure. >>You, as in Chevron mean not Vicki, Inc. >>Vicky, thank you so much. We are out of time, but thanks for stopping by talking to us about automation in a large global enterprise at Chevron. I won't look at Chevron at the same again. Now I know how forward-thinking they are and how much they are embracing technology. We appreciate your time. >>It's been my pleasure. Thank you both. >>All right. For Dave Volante and Lisa Martin, we live at the Bellagio in Las Vegas UI path forward for we'll be right back.

>> Narrator: From around the globe, it's theCUBE with coverage of KubeCon and CloudNativeCon Europe 2020 Virtual brought to you by Red Hat, the Cloud Native Computing Foundation and ecosystem partners. >> Hi I'm Stu Miniman and this is theCUBE's coverage of KubeCon, CloudNativeCon the 2020 European show of course happening virtually and that has put some unique challenges for the people running the show, really happy to welcome to the program she is one of the co-chairs of this event, and she is also a Principal Software Engineer at Splunk, Constance Caramanolis thank you so much for joining us. >> Hi, thank you for having me, I'm really excited to be here, it's definitely an interesting time. >> Alright, so Constance we know KubeCon it's a great community, robust everybody loves to get together there's some really interesting hallway conversations and so much going on, we've been watching, the four or five years we've been doing theCUBE at this show, just huge explosion of the breadth and depth of the content and of course, great people there. Just, if we could start with a little bit, your background, as I mentioned you're the co-chair, you work for Splunk by way of an acquisition, of Omnition try saying that three times fast, and Omnition you were telling me is a company that was bought really before it came out of stealth, but when it comes to the community itself, how long have you been involved in this community? What kind of led you to being co-chair? >> Yeah, I guess I've been involved with the community since 2017, so, I was at Lyft before Omnition Splunk, and I was lucky enough to be one of the first engineers, on Envoy you might've heard of Envoy, sorry I laugh at my own jokes. (laughing) Like my first exposure to KubeCon and seeing the CNCF community was KubeCon Austin and the thing that I was amazed by was actually you said it the hallway tracks, right? I would just see someone and be like, "Hey, like, I think I've seen your code review can I say hi?" And that started back on me at least a little bit involved in terms of talking to more people then they needed people I would work on a PR or in some of the community meetings and that was my first exposure to the community. And so I was involved in Envoy pretty actively involved in Envoy all the way until from 2016 until mid 2018 and then I switched projects and turning it left and did some other stuff and I came back into CNCF community, in OpenTelemetry as of last year, actually almost exactly a year ago now to work on making tracing, I'm going to say useful and the reason why I say useful is that usually people think of tracing as, not as important as metrics and logs, but there is so much to tracing that we tend to undervalue and that's why I got involved with OpenTelemetry and Omnition, because there's some really interesting ways that you could view tracing, use tracing, and you could answer a lot of questions that we have in our day-to-day and so that's kind of that's how I got involved in the second-round community and then ended up getting nominated to be on the co-chair and I obviously said yes, because this is an amazing opportunity to meet more people and have more of that hallway track. >> Alright, so definitely want to talk about OpenTracing, but let's talk about the event first, as we were talking about. >> Yeah. >> That community you always love the speakers, when they finish a session, they get mobbed by people doing questions. When you walk through the expo hall, you go see people so give us a little bit of insight as to how we're trying to replicate that experience, make sure that there's I don't know office hours for the speakers and just places and spaces for people to connect and meet people. >> Yeah, so I will say that like, part of the challenge with KubeCone EU was that it had already been meant to be an in person event and so we're changing it to virtual, isn't going to be as smooth as a KubeCon or we have the China event that's happening in a few weeks or at Boston, right that's still going on, like, those ones are being thought out a lot more as a proper virtual event. So a little bit of the awkwardness of, now everything is going to be online, right? It's like you can't actually shake someone's hand in a hallway but we are definitely trying to be cognizant of when I'm in terms of future load, like probably less content, right. It's harder to sit in front of a screen and listen to everything and so we know that we know we have enough bandwidth we're trying to find, different pieces of software that allow for better Q and A, right? Exactly, like the mobbing after session is go in as a speaker and one as attendee is sometimes like the best part about conferences is you get to like someone might've said something like, "Hey, like this little tidbit "I need to ask you more questions about this." So we're providing software to at least make that as smooth, and I'm putting this in quotation and as you'll be able to tell anyone who's watching as I speak with my hands. Right, so we're definitely trying to provide software to at least make that initial interaction as smooth as possible, maybe as easy as possible we know it's probably going to be a little bit bumpy just because I think it's also our first time, like everyone, every conference is facing this issue so it's going to be really interesting to see how the conference software evolves. It is things that we've talked about in terms of maybe offering their office hours, for that it's still something that like, I think it's going to be really just an open question for all of us, is that how do we maintain that community? And I think maybe we were talking or kind of when I was like planting the seed of a topic beforehand, it's like it's something I think that matters like, how do we actually define community? 'Cause so much of it has been defined off that hallway track or bumping into someone, right? And going into someone's booth and be like, like asking that question there, because it is a lot more less intimidating to ask something in person than is to ask it online when everyone gets to hear your question, right. I know I ask less questions online, I guess maybe one thing I want to say is that for now that am thinking about it is like, if you have a question please ask questions, right? If recording is done, if there's a recording for a talk, the speakers are usually made available online during the session or a bit afterwards, so please ask your questions when things come up, because that's going to be a really good way to, at least have a bit of that question there. And also don't be shy, please, even when I say like in terms of like, when it comes to review, code reviews, but if something's unintuitive or let's say, think about something else, like interact with it, say it or even ask that question on Twitter, if you're brave enough, I wouldn't but I also barely use Twitter, yeah I don't know it's a big open question I don't know what the community is going to look like and if it's going to be harder. >> Yeah, well, one of the things I know every, every time I go to the show conferences, when the keynote when it's always like, okay, "How many people is this your first time at the show?" And you look around and it's somewhere, third or half people attending for the first time. >> Yeah. I know I'm trying to remember if it was year and a half ago, or so there was created a kind of one-on-one track at the show to really help onboard and give people into the show because when the show started out, it was like okay, it was Kubernetes and a couple of other things now you've got the graduated, the incubated, the dozens of sandbox projects out there and then even more projects out there so, cloud-native is quite a broad topic, there is no wrong way where you can start and there's so many paths that you can go on. So any tips or things that we're doing this time, to kind of help broaden and welcome in those new participants? >> Yeah so there's two things, one is actually the one to attract is official for a KubeCon EU so we do have like, there's a few good talks in terms of like, how to approach KubeCon it was meant to originally be for a person but at least helping people in terms of general terms, right? 'Cause sometimes there's so much terminology that it feels like you need to carry, cloud-native dictionary around with you, doing that and giving suggestions there, so that's one of the first talks that's going to be able to watch on KubeCon so I highly suggest that, This is actually a really tough question because a lot of it would have been like, I guess it would have been for me, would have been in person be like, don't be afraid to like, if you see someone that, said something really interesting in a talk you attended, like, even if it's not after the question, just be like, "Hey, I thought what you said was really cool "and I just want to say I appreciate your work." Like expressing that appreciation and just even if it isn't like the most thoughtful question in the world just saying thank you or I appreciate you as a really good way to open things up because the people who are speaking are just as well most people are probably just as scared of going up there and sharing their knowledge as probably or of asking a question. So I think the main takeaway from that is don't be shy, like maybe do a nervous dance to get those jitters out and then after (laughing) and then ask that question or say like, thank you it's really nice to meet you. It's harder to have a virtual coffee, so hopefully they have their own teapot or coffee maker beside them, but offered you that, send an email I think, one thing that is very common and I have a hard time with this is that it's easy to get overwhelmed with how much content there is or you said it's just like, I first feel small and at least if everyone is focusing on Kubernetes, especially like a few years ago, at least and you're like, maybe that there are a lot of people who are really advanced but now that there's so many different people like so many people from all range of expertise in this subject matter experts, and interests that it's okay to be overwhelmed just be like, I need to take a step back because mentally attending like a few talks a day is like, I feel like it's taking like several exams 'cause there's so much information being bombarded on you and you're trying to process it so understand that you can't process it all in one day and that's okay, come back to it, right. It's a great thing is that all of these talks are recorded and so you can watch it another time, and I would say probably just choose like three or four talks that you're really excited about and listen to those, don't need to watch everything because as I said we can't process it all and that's okay and ask questions. >> Some great advice there because right, if we were there in person it was always, attend what you really want to see, are there speakers you want to engage with? Because you can go back and watch on demand that's been one of the great opportunities with the virtual events is you can have access on demand, you can poke and prod, personally I love that a lot of them you can adjust the speed of them so, if it's something that it's kind of an intro talk, I can crank it up to one and a half or 2X speed and get through more content or I can pause it, rewind if I'm not getting it. And the other opportunity is I tell you the last two or three years, when I'm at an event, I try to just spend my time, not looking at my phone, talking to people, but now there's the opportunity, hey, if I can be of help, if anybody in the community has a question or wants to get connected to somebody, we know a lot of people I'm easily reachable on Twitter and I'm not sitting on a plane or in the middle of something that being like, so there is just a great robust community out there, online, and it were great be a part of it. So speaking of projects, you mentioned OpenTelemetry, which is what, your day job works on it's been a really, interesting topic of course for those that don't know the history, there were actually two projects that merged, it was a OpenTracing and OpenCensus created OpenTelemetry, so why don't you bring us up to speed as to where we are with the project, and what people should be looking at at the show and throughout the rest of 2020? >> OpenTelemetry is very exciting, we just did our first beta release so for anyone who's been on the fence of, is OpenTelemetry getting traction, or is it something that you're like at, this is a really great time to want to get involved in OpenTelemetry and start looking into it, if it's as a viable project, but I guess should probably take a step back of what is OpenTelemetry, OpenTelemetry as you mentioned was the merging or the marriage of OpenTracing-OpenCensus, right? It was an acknowledgement that so many engineers were trying to solve the same problem, but as most of us knows, right, we are trying to solve the same problem, but we had two different implementations and we actually ended up having essentially a lot of waste of resources because we're all trying to solve the same problem, but then we're working on two different implementations. So that marriage was to address that because, right it's like if you look at all of the major players, all of the players on OpenTelemetry, right? They have a wide variety of vendor experience, right even as of speaking from the vendor hat, right vendors are really lucky that they get to work with so many customers and they get to see all these different use cases. Then there's also just so many actually end users who are using it and they have very peculiar use cases, too, even with a wide set of other people, they're not going to obviously have that, so OpenTelemetry gets to merge all of those different use cases into one, or I guess not into one, but like into a wide set of implementations, but at least it's maintained by a larger group instead of having two separate. And so the first goal was to unify tracing tracing is really far ahead in terms of implementation,, or several implementations of libraries, like Go, Java, Python, Ruby, like on other languages right now but quite a bit of lists there and there's even a collector too which some people might refer to as an agent, depending on what background they have. And so there's a lot of ways to one, implement tracing and also metrics for your services and also gather that data and manipulate it, right? 'Cause for example, tracings so tracing where it's like you can generate a lot of traces, but sometimes missing data and like the collector is a really great place to add data to that, so going back to the state of OpenTelemetry, OpenTelemetry since we just did a beta release, right, we're getting closer to GA. GA is something that we're tracking for at some point this year, no dates yet but it's something that we're really pushing towards, but we're starting to have a very stable API in terms of tracing a metric was on its way, log was all something we're wrapping up on. It is a really great opportunity to, all the different ways that we are that, we even say like service owners, applications, even business rate that we're trying to collect data and have visibility into our applications, this is a really great way to provide one common framework to generate all that data, to gather all that data and generate all that data. So it was really exciting and I don't know, we just want more users and why we say that is to the earlier point is that the more users that we have who are engaged with community, right if you want to open an issue, have a question if you want to set up a PR please do, like we really want more community engagement. It is a great time to do that because we are just starting to get traction, right? Like hopefully, hopefully in a year or two, like we are one of those really big, big projects right up on a CNCF KubeCon and it's like, let's see how much has grown. And it's a great time to join and help influence a project and so many chances for ownership, I know it's really exciting, the company-- >> Excellent well Constance, it's really exciting >> Yeah. >> Congratulations on the progress there, I'm sure everybody's looking forward to as you said GA later this year, want to give you the final word, yourself and Vicky Cheung as the co-chairs for the event, what's your real goal? What do you hope the takeaway is from this instance of the 2020 European show? Of course, virtual now instead of Amsterdam. I guess like two parts one for the takeaway is that it's probably going to be awkward, right? Especially again going back to the community is that we don't have a lot of that in person things so this will be an awkward interaction, but it's a really great place for us to want to assess what a community means to us and how we interact with the community. So I think it's going to be going into it with an open mindset of just knowing like, don't set the expectations, like any other KubeCon because we just know it won't be right, we can't even have like the after hours, like going out for coffee or drinks and other stuff there so having that there and being open to that being different and then also if you have ideas share it with us, 'cause we want to know how we can make it better, so expect that it's different, but it's still going to provide you with a lot of that content that you've been looking for and we still want to make that as much of a welcoming experience for you, so know that we're doing our best and we're open to feedback and we're here for you. >> Excellent, well Constance thank you so much for the work that you and the team have been doing on. absolutely, one of the events that we always look forward to, thanks so much for joining us. >> Thank you for having me. >> Alright, lots more coverage of theCUBE at KubeCon-Cloud Native on Europe 2020, I'm Stu Miniman and thanks for watching. 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>>Ly from San Diego, California. It's the cube covering to clock in cloud native con brought to you by red hat, the cloud native computing foundation and its ecosystem Marsh. >>Welcome back to San Diego. I'm Stewman and my cohost is Justin Warren. And coming back to our program, one of our cube alumni and be coach hair of this coupon cloud native con prion Lyles who is also a senior staff engineer at VMware. Brian, thanks so much for joining us. Thanks for having me on. And do you want to have a shout out of course to a Vicky Chung who is your coach hair. She has been doing a lot of work. She came to our studio ahead of it to do a preview and unfortunately she's supposed to be sitting here but a little under the weather. And we know there was nothing worse than, you know, doing travel and you know, fighting an illness. But she's a little sick today, but um, uh, she knows that we'll, we'll, we'll still handle it. Alright, so Brian, 12,000 people here in attendance. >>Uh, more keynotes than most of us can keep a track of. So, first of all, um, congratulations. Uh, things seem to be going well other than maybe, uh, choosing the one day of the year that it rained in, uh, you know, San Diego, uh, which we we can't necessarily plan for. Um, I'd love you to bring us a little bit insight as to some of the, the, the goals and the themes that, uh, you know, you and Vicki and the, the, the, the, the community we're, we're looking at for, for this coupon. So you're right, let's help thousand people and so many sponsors and so many ideas and so many projects, it's really hard to have a singular theme. But a few months ago we came up with was, well, if, if Kubernetes in this cloud software make us better or basically advances, then we can do more advanced things. >>And then our end users can be more advanced. And it was like a three pong thing. And if you look, go back and look at our keynotes, he would say, Hey, we're looking at our software. Hey, we're looking at an amazing things that we did, especially cat by that five G keynote yesterday. And the notice that we had, it was me talking about how we could look forward and then, and then notice we had in talking about security and then we had Walmart and target talking about how they're using it and, and that was all on purpose. It's trying to tell a story that people can go back and look at. Yeah, I liked the, the message that you were, you were trying to put out there around how we need to make Kubernetes a little bit easier, but how we need to change the way that we talk about it as well. >>So maybe you could, uh, fill us in a little bit more. Let's say, unfortunately, Kubernetes is not going to get an easier, um, that's like saying we wish Linux was easier to use. Um, Linux has a huge ABI and API interface. It's not going to get easier. So what we need to do is start doing what we did with Linux and Linux is the Colonel. Um, this should be some Wars happened over the years and you notice some distributions are easier to use. Another. So if you use the current fedora or you the current Ubuntu or even like mint, it's getting really easy to use. And I'm not suggesting that we need Kubernetes distributions. That's actually the furthest thing, but we do need to work on building our ecosystem on top of Kubernetes because I mentioned like CIS CD, um, observability security audit management and who knows what else we need to start thinking about those things as pretty much first-class items. >>Just as important as Kubernetes. Kubernetes is the Colonel. Yeah. Um, in the keynotes, there's, as you said, there's such a broad landscape here. Uh, uh, I've heard some horror stories that people like, Oh, Hey, where do I start? And they're like, Oh, here's the CNCF landscape. And they're like, um, I can't start there. There's too much there. Uh, you, you picked out and highlighted, um, some of the lesser known pieces. Uh, th there's some areas that are a little bit mature. What, what are some of the more exciting things that you've seen going on right now, your system and this ecosystem? >> Um, I'm not even gonna. I highlighted open policy agent as a, as an interesting product. I don't know if it's the right answer, actually. I kind of wish there was a competitor just so I could determine if it was the right answer. >>But things like OPA and then like open telemetry, um, two projects coming together and having even bigger goals. Uh, let's make a severability easy. What I would also like to see is a little bit more, more maturity and the workflow space. So, you know, the CII and CD space. And I know with Argo and flux merging to Argo flux, uh, that's very interesting. And just a little bit of a tidbit is that I, I also co-chair the CNCF SIG application delivery, uh, special interest group, but, uh, we're thinking about that, that space right there. So I would love to see more in the workflow space, but then also I would like to see more security tools and not just old school check, check, check, but, um, think about what Aqua security is doing. And I'm, I don't know if they're now Snick or S, I don't know how to say it, but, um, there's, there's companies out there rethinking security. >>Let's do that. Yeah. I spoke to Snick a couple of days ago and it's, I'm pretty sure it's sneak. Apparently it stands for, so now you know, which that was news to me that, so now I know interesting. But they have a lot of good projects coming up. Yeah. You mentioned that the ecosystem and that you like that there's competitors for particular projects to kind of explore which way is the right way of doing things. We have a lot of exhibitors here and we have a lot of competitors out there trying to come into this ecosystem. It seems to actually be growing even bigger. Are we going to see a period of consolidation where some of these competing options, we decided that actually no, we don't want to use that. We want to go over here. I mean according to crossing the chasm, yes, but we need to figure out where we are on the maturity chart for, for the whole ecosystem. >>So I think in a healthy, healthy ecosystem, people don't succeed and products go away, but then what we see is in maybe six months or a year or two later, those same founders are out there creating new products. So not everyone's going to win on their first shot. So I think that's fine because, you know, we've all had failures in the past, but we're still better for those failures. Yeah, I've heard it described as a kind of Cambridge and explosion at the moment. So hopefully we don't get an asteroid that comes in and, uh, and hopefully it is out cause yeah. Um, one of the things really, really noticed is, uh, if you went back a year or even two years ago, we were talking about very much the infrastructure, the building blocks of what we had. Uh, I really noticed front and center, especially in the keynote here, talking a lot about the workload. >>You're talking about the application. We're talking about, uh, you know, much more up the stack and uh, from kind of that application, uh, uh, piece down, even, uh, some friends of mine that were new to this ecosystem was like, I don't understand what language they're talking. I'm like, well, they're talking to the app devs. That's why, you know, they're not speaking to you. Is that, was that intentional? >> Well, I mean for me it is because I like to speak to the app devs and I realized that infrastructure comes and goes. I've been doing this for decades now and I've seen the rise of Cisco as, as a networking platform and I've seen their ups and downs. I've worked in security. But what I know is fundamentals are, are just that. And I would like to speak to the developers now because we need to get back to the developers because they create the value. >>I mean the only people who win at selling via our selling Kubernetes are vendors of Kubernetes. So, you know, I work for one and then there's the clouds and then there's other companies as well. So the thing that stays constant are people are building applications and ultimately if Kubernetes and the cloud native landscape can't take care of those application developers remember happened, remember, um, OpenStack, and not in like a negative way, but remember OpenStack, it got to be so hard that people couldn't even focus on what gave value. >> Unlike obvious fact leaves on it. It's still being used a lot in, in service providers and so on. So technology never really goes away completely. It just may fade off and live in a corner and then we move on to whatever's the next newest and greatest thing and then end up reinventing ourselves and having to do all of the same problems again. >>It feels a little bit like that with sometimes the Kubernetes way where haven't we already sold this? Linux is still here, Linux is still, and Linux is still growing. I mean Linux is over Virgin five right now and Linux is adapting and bringing in new things in a Colonel and moving things out to the user land. Kubernetes needs to figure out how to do that as well. Yeah, no Brian, I think it's a great point. You know, I'm an infrastructure guy and we know the only reason infrastructure exists is to serve up that application. What Matt managed to the business, my application, my data. Um, you and your team have some open source projects that you're involved in. Maybe give us a little bit about right? So oxen is a, so let me tell you the quick story. Joe Beda and I talked about how do we approach developers where they are. >>And one thing came up really early in that conversation was, well, why don't we just tell developers where things are broken? So come to find out using Kubernetes object model and a little bit of computer science, like just a tiny little bit. You can actually build this graph where everything is connected and then all you need to do then is determine if for any type of object, is it working or is it not working? So now look at this. Now I can actually show you what's broken and what's not broken. And what makes octane a little bit different is that we also wrapped it with a dashboard that shows everything inside of a Kubernetes cluster. And then we made it extensible. And just, just a crazy thing. I made a plugin API one weekend because I'm like, Oh, that would be kind of cool. And just at this conference alone, nine to 10 people to walk up to me and said, Oh, um, we use oxygen and we use your plugin system. >>And now we've done things that I can't imagine, and I think I might've said this, I know I've said it somewhere recently, but the hallmark of a good platform is when people start creating things you could never imagine on it. And that's what Linux did. That's what Kubernetes is doing. And octane is doing it in the small right now. So kudos to me and me really and my team that's really exciting. So fry, Oakton, Coobernetti's and Tansu both are seven sided. Uh, was, was that, that, that uh, uh, moving to, uh, to, to eight, uh, so no marketing. Okay. And I don't profess to understand what marketing is. Someone just named it. And I said, you know what, I'm a developer. I don't really mind w as long as you can call it something, that's fine. I do like the idea that we should evolve the number of platonic solids. >>There's another answer too. So if you think about what seven is, it, um, people were thinking ahead and said, well, someone could actually take that and use it as another connotation. So I was like, all right, we'll just get out of that. That's why it's called octane, but still nautical theme. Okay, great. Brian. So much going on. You know, even outside of this facility, there's things going on. Uh, any hidden gems that just the, you know, our audience that's watching or people that we'll look back at this event and say, Hey, you know, here's some cool little things there. I mean, they hit the Twitters, I'm sure they'll see the therapy dogs and whatnot, but you know, for the people geeking out, some of those hidden gems that you'd want to share. Um, some of the hidden gems or I'll, I'll throw up to, um, watch what these end-user companies are doing and watch what, like the advanced companies like Walmart and target and capital one are doing. >>I just think there's a lot of lessons to be learned and think about this. They have a crazy amount of money. They're actually investing time in this. It might be a good idea. And other hidden gyms are, are companies that are embracing the, the extension model of Kubernetes through custom resource definitions and building things. So the other day I had the tests on, on the stage, and they're not the only example of this, but running my sequel and Coobernetti's and it pretty much works all well, let's see what we can run with this. So I think that there's going to be a lot more companies that are going to invest in this space and, and, and actually deliver on these types of products. And, and I think that's a very interesting space. Yeah. We, we spoke to Bloomberg just before and uh, we talked to the tests, we spoke to Subaru from the test yesterday. >>Uh, seeing how people are using Kubernetes to build these systems, which can then be built upon themselves. Right. I think that's, that's probably for me, one of the more interesting things is that we end up with a platform and then we build more platforms on top of it. But we, we're creating these higher levels of abstraction, which actually gets us closer to just being able to do the work that we want to do as developers. I don't need to think about how all of the internals work, which again to your keynote today is like, I don't want to write machine code and I just want to solve this sort of business problem. If we can embed that into the, into this ecosystem, then it just makes everyone's lives much, much easier. So you basically, that is my secret. I'm really, I know people hate it for attractions and they say they will, but no one hates an abstraction. >>You don't actually turn the crank in your motor to make the car run. You press the accelerator and it goes. Yeah. Um, so we need to figure out the correct attractions and we do that through iteration and failure, but I'm liking that people are pushing the boundaries and uh, like Joe beta and Kelsey Hightower said is that Kubernetes is a platform of platforms. It is basically an API for writing API APIs. Let's take advantage of that and write API APIs. All right. Well, Brian, thank you. Thank Vicky. Uh, please, uh, you know, share, congratulations to the team for everything done here. And while you might be stepping down as, or we do hope you'll come and join us back on the cube at a future event. No, I enjoyed talking to you all, so thank you. Alright, thanks so much Brian for Justin Warren we'll be back with more of our water wall coverage. CubeCon cloud native con here in San Diego. Thanks for watching the queue.

>>live from San Francisco. It's the Q covering in dramatic. A World 2017 brought to you by Inform Attica. Welcome >>back, everyone. We live here in San Francisco at the Mosconi West with In From Attica. World 2017. This is Cubes Exclusive coverage. I'm John Furry with the Cube and Peter Barris with vicky bond dot com General manager we have on research. Our next guest is Tracy Ring, specialist leader at Deloitte Consulting in the trenches. Put it all together. Welcome to the Cube. Thanks for joining us today. Appreciate it. >>Thank you for having me. I'm excited to be here. >>So your specialist, But in the system global system, integrated world, that means you basically globally look at the solutions. And And what's interesting is why I'm excited. Conversation with you is that, you know, point solutions can come and go. But now we're in this compose herbal world of cloud data, etcetera, where ah, holistic view has to be looked at. So what? I want to get your thoughts on in from Attica and what you guys are doing because we've heard it's the heartbeat. But yet there's also a hygiene issue. So you got this heart surgeon and the hygienist, and you have all kinds of specialty rolls of and data. It's pretty broad, but yet supercritical. How do you look at the holistic big picture? >>Absolutely. I mean, we're seeing the view of ecosystems being so much more important. Were so Maney technology disruptors. I mean, three years ago, we weren't even hearing about Kafka, and Duke was really new, and and so I think demystifying, simplifying, helping customers understand the art of the possible what can be done? What are leading practice organizations doing and then really making it real? How do you so this complex story together, how do you best leverage and get your investment out of technologies like in from Attica in their complimentary tools >>is interesting. IBM has Watson in from Attica. Has Claire ASAP has Leonardo s A P has Einstein. >>It would be >>great to get them all together >>and have dinner, right? So I mean, but this speaks >>well, You got Alexa and Amazon and Google. I mean, this is an interface issues you're talking about. Ah, cognitive. A real time new user interface and machine interface into data that is completely out of the possible. It's what's happening in the world is changing. Developers is changing. Practitioners, architects. Everyone's impacted your reaction to all this. >>You know, I think it's probably the most exciting time that we've seen in so long, and I think you so well articulated all of the players that air there. I think when you add in I, O. T. And Device Management, you know it's really an exciting time. And I think it's really driving some amazing things with regard to how organizations are literally transforming themselves. And in both our clients as well as the ecosystem of technologies, companies air are literally shifting their entire business model. It's it's very exciting. >>So one of the things that the typified system integrator types behavior like to elect a lawyer big consulting firm was big application. Let's deploy the big application for accounting for finance for HR whatever. Also culminating in New York, which was the Grand pa of everything. Right now we're talking about analytics where we have to focus on the outcome's not just a big package for a function, but really a complex, ideally strategic differentiating outcome. Yeah, typically using a whole bunch of smaller tools that have to be bought together similar. What John was talking about as a specialist who looks at these tools take us through kind of a new thought process, outcome, capability to tool in the entire journey to get there. >>Absolutely. I think one of the things that delight does that is really, really unique is having conversations that start with art of the possible, what could be done? What are leading practice organizations doing Help me set a strategy? Yeah, and I think the real answer is there's less about sort of benchmarking what everyone else is doing and more about >>really, You got it, You got >>it. It's really about revolutionizing, you know, and and going into a new angle of what is truly, truly possible. And I think, ah, lot of the things that were sort of table stakes and in the way that we would look at success totally turned on its head. And we're looking at organizations monetizing their data and, you know, creating new business ventures because of the insights that they're deriving and a lot of times will use. Delight has an insight studio and a greenhouse, and a couple of really highly collaborative spaces that we take clients to. Ah, well, you know, plan 123 day workshops, depending on how difficult of problem they're trying to solve and help them charter road map. And take that road map, which is in many cases, business oriented business results driven and help them so in and layer in the technologies that are gonna make that reality possible. What's >>the opportunities for cognitive? I mean, you guys talk a lot of Deloitte about a Friday different things, but specifically there's some key opportunity around. Call the cognitive or you guys call the cognitive. IBM also used that word cognition, but really a I artificial augmented intelligence are signs of a new kind of opportunity landscape. Whether you see for customer opportunities out there, >>absolutely, we talk a lot about what we consider the inside driven advantage. And that's really about using all of the tools in the toolkit to make that insight driven, data driven, better decisions around what organizations conduce. Oh, and kind of. It is a huge component of that, you know, it's we've been hearing stories for years about companies sort of predicting the next best offer and you know, we're seeing this move so much further, removing into robotics process automation. You know, the space is getting, I think, even more complex. But I think what's interesting is when we talk to organizations about, you know, they're not hiring tons of people to go out and do data integration through wonderful organizations. Confirm Attica. That's really been solved. So companies were able to both take their technical resource is and shift them into solving Maur difficult problems, hairier technology opportunities and use that to help shape their business. >>That's like compose abilities. So in dramatic, a world's got a set of solutions and technologies. Some sass ified someone fram. But here it is. But you're deluded you. That's just one element to your mix of things composed for clients. You mention those three years opportunities. Digital transformation is kind of the categorical wave >>Iran, but the end of >>the day it's business transformation. You mentioned changing the business model. >>How do >>customers take advantage of those business opportunities in whether it's robotics or industrial i ot or insights and analytics? What What is the customer impact and how did they get those business benefits? >>Yeah, I mean, I think again like I said, a lot of times it starts with, you know, what is their goal? What do they want to be known for in the marketplace and that value branding of Of what is it that they see themselves differentiating amongst their competitors and using a pretty solid process and rigorous approach to that strategy? Tea set? You know, what are the pillars to achieve? That is, I think, a big piece of it. I think the other component is we see a lot of organizations sort of challenging themselves to do more. And we'll have organizations say I believe that I can doom or what? What could I do? And I think that's interesting that >>we'll just fall upon that because Pete and I were talking earlier before we came on about what gets customers excited when the iPad came out. That was the first kind of visual of >>I gotta have my analytics on the dashboard. Let's start. I >>call the dashboard wave now with bots and aye aye. You're seeing another reaction. >>Yeah, I gotta have that. Automated. Do you see it the same way? And how does that >>translate to the custom when they see these this eye candy and the visualization stuff. How does that impact your world and the impact of the customer? Your customer? >>Absolutely. I mean, we used to live in a world where if I needed to have my data extracted, I would, you know, submit a request. And it was this very long, lengthy process. And, you know, when you think about the robotic single and and process automation, you know, automated data pools are are there. And I think the interesting part is is that it's not about just cost out of i t. It's not about, you know, getting off of on premise hardware. It's about driving better customer satisfaction, driving better business outcomes. You know, the implications. I think whether you're in life sciences or you're in retail, you can touch your customer in a way that is. You know what I would say? Sort of delighting them versus just giving them what they asked for. >>So I wanna I wanna test of theory on you and see how live and see how this seals lines up with thinking and where you see your customers going. So we have this notion that wicked bond, our research of what we call systems of agency. And by that we mean effectively that historically we did we create systems that recorded action big t p e r p. More recently, as you said, we're now creating systems that suggest action predictive analytics, those types of things. And now we're moving in the world were actually going to have systems that take action. Yeah, where authority and data have to move together so that the system is acting as an agent on behalf of the brand now in from Attica has done some really interesting things here with some of their new tooling, some of the metadata tooling to ensure that that type of meeting can move with the data. So if you think about where Deloitte and customers are going, are they starting to move into this new realm where we're building systems, take action on behalf of the brand and what does that mean for the types of tooling? But we're gonna have to find for customers so they can make it, you >>know? I mean, this morning we were delighted to hear the latest announcement around how metadata is really such a core component, and and I think of it is metadata is in many cases where most organizations do see the monetization of their data payoff. Right? We're not only do I have highest golden record like we talked about 10 years ago, I have data lineage. I have data traceability. I have the whole entire story. So it's really much more cost justified. Uh, you know, hearing the announcement today of Claire, and you know how we now have the Aye Aye of our clairvoyance is really exciting. And, you know, I I don't know that we're completely there. And I think we'll continue to innovate as in from Attica. Always does. But we certainly are a whole lot closer. And I would say, you know, your concept is you know, certainly we're all going to the park for >>good. My final question. Let's get your thoughts on because you have a global perspective. You work with the ecosystem partners. You heard all the stories. You've heard all the raps and all the Kool Aid injectors from the different suppliers. But there's two things going on that that's interesting. One is we're kind of going back to the end to end solution. Absolutely. I'm seeing five g with Intel Smart cities I ot So everyone wants to get back to that end to an accountability with data and packets moving. All that could step with applications over the top. But yet there's not one single vendor owning it, so it's kind of a multi vendor world, yet it's gotta be in tow end and bulletproof secure. I mean, >>that's your world. It's not derailed. I mean, you got to be busy, your reaction to that. And what's that? What's that >>mean to the industry? And how should customers? I'd look at that Say okay, Want to get some stability? I want great SL ways, but I want a flexibility for compose ability I want and empower my app developers Dr Top Line Revenue. This is the Holy Grail. We're kind of in the wheelhouse right now. >>Yeah, 100%. I think it's a very exciting time and the like, I said, the fabric of what organizations need to sew together two really achieve their analytic insights and, uh, you know, leveraging their data. I think data is just becoming more and more important, and it's a phenomenal place toe to be in both for where I sit on the consulting side helping all of our customers and certainly where globally we're seeing our client's going >>and your and your message to the client is what we got your back on. This >>has to look, that's what you guys do. You sew it together. It's got to be more than that. It's got ideas for you could see. I think it's a >>lot. I think it's that it's not just about bolting in a technology or 10 technologies. It's about solving the most difficulty technology problems with, you know, with data helping. >>You gotta be savvy to, as they say in the swim lanes of the different firms and got to bring your expertise to the table with some of your own tech. >>Absolutely. And and I think for us we never sort of a ra missed that there is a huge business, and if you if you don't take the business aspect of it, what business problem are we solving? What value are regenerating? How are we ultimately impacting our customers customers, you know? Then you know you're sort of missing the what we consider the most important piece of the pie. >>Tracey Ring with the Lloyd. Great to have you on. Thanks for your insight. Very insightful. That all the data's right there. We're gonna make sense of it here in the Cube. Thanks for sharing, Dee Lloyd. Really put it all together. Composing the future Cloud Data Mobile. It's all here. Social is the que bringing all the live action from San Francisco. I'm John for Peter Burst more after this short break.