>> We're back at the Big Apple, theCUBE's coverage of MongoDB World 2022. Sahir Azam is here, he's the Chief Product Officer of MongoDB, and Guillermo Rauch who's the CEO of Vercel. Hot off the keynotes from this morning guys, good job. >> Thank you. >> Thank you. >> Thank you for joining us here. Thanks for having us. Guillermo when it comes to modern web development, you know the back-end, the cloud guys got to it kind of sewn up, >> you know- >> Guillermo: Forget about it. >> But all the action's in the front end, and that's where you are. Explain Vercel. >> Yeah so Vercel is the company that pioneers front-end development as serverless infrastructure. So we built Next.js which is the most popular React framework in the world. This is what front-end engineers choose to build innovative UI's, beautiful websites. Companies like Dior and GitHub and TikTok and Twitch, which we mentioned in the keynote, are powering their entire dot-coms or all of their new parts of their dot-coms with Next.js. And Vercel is the serverless platform where you can deploy frameworks like in Next.js and others like Svelte and Vue to create really fast experiences on the web. >> So I hear, so serverless, I hear that's the hot trend. You guys made some announcements today. I mean when you look at the, we have spending data with our friends at ETR right down the street. I mean it's just off the charts, whether it's Amazon, Google, Azure Functions, I mean it's just exploding. >> Sahir: Yeah, it's I think in many ways, it's a natural trend. You know, we talk a lot about, whether it be today's keynote or another industry talks you see around our industry that developers are constantly looking for ways to focus on innovation and the business logic that defines their application and as opposed to managing the plumbing, and management of infrastructure. And we've seen this happen over and over again across every layer of the stack. And so for us, you know MongoDB, we have a bit of, you know sort of a lens of a broad spectrum of the market. We certainly have you know, large enterprises that are modernizing existing kind of core systems, then we have developers all over the world who are building the next big best thing. And that's what led us to partner with Vercel is just the bleeding edge of developers building in a new way, in a much more efficient way. And we wanted to make sure we provide a data platform that fits naturally in the way they want to work. >> So explain to our audience the trade-offs of serverless, and I want to get into sort of how you've resolved that. And then I want to hear from Guillermo, what that means for developers. >> Sahir: Yeah in our case, we don't view it as an either or, there are certain workloads and definitely certain companies that will gravitate towards a more traditional database infrastructure where they're choosing the configuration of their cluster. They want full control over it. And that provides, you know, certain benefits around cost predictability or isolation or perceived benefits at least of those things. And customers will gravitate towards that. Now on the flip side, if you're building a new application or you want the ability to scale seamlessly and not have to worry about any of the plumbing, serverless is clearly the easier model. So over the long term, we certainly expect to see as a mix of things, more and more serverless workloads being built on our platform and just generally in the industry, which is why we leaned in so heavily on investing in Atlas serverless. But the flexibility to not be forced into a particular model, but to get the same database experience across your application and even switch between them is an important characteristic for us as we build going forward. >> And you stressed the cost efficiency, and not having to worry about, you know, starting cold. You've architected around that, and what does that mean for a developer? >> Guillermo: For a developer it means that you kind of get the best of both worlds, right? Like you get the best possible performance. Front-end developers are extremely sensitive to this. That's why us pioneering this concept, serverless front-end, has put us in a very privileged position because we have to deliver that really quick time to first buy, that really quick paint. So any of the old trade-offs of serverless are not accepted by the market. You have to be extremely fast. You have to be instant to deliver that front-end content. So what we talked about today for example, with the Vercel Edge network, we're removing all of the cost of that like first hit. That cold start doesn't really exist. And now we're seeing it all across the board, going into the back-end where Mongo has also gotten rid of it. >> Dave: How do you guys collaborate? What's the focus of integration specifically from, you know, an engineering resource standpoint? >> Yeah the main idea is, idea to global app in seconds, right? You have your idea. We give you the framework. We don't give you infrastructure primitives. We give you all the necessary tools to start your application. In practice this means you host it in a Git repo. You import it onto Vercel. You install the Mongo integration. Now your front-end and your data back-end are connected. And then your application just goes global in seconds. >> So, okay. So you've abstracted away the complexity of those primitives, is that correct? >> Guillermo: Absolutely. >> Do do developers ever say, "That's awesome but I'd like to get to them every now and then." Or do you not allow that? >> Definitely. We expose all the underlying APIs, and the key thing we hear is that, especially with the push for usage-based billing models, observability is of the essence. So at any time you have to be able to query, in real time, every data point that the platform is observing. We give you performance analytics in real time to see how your front-end is performing. We give you statistics about how often you're querying your back-end and so on, and your cache hit ratios. So what I talked about today in the keynote is, it's not just about throwing more compute at the problem, but the ability to use the edge to your advantage to memoize computation and reuse it across different visits. >> When we think of mission critical historically, you know, you think about going to the ATM, right? I mean a financial transaction. But Mongo is positioning for mission critical applications across a variety of industries. Do we need to rethink what mission critical means? >> I think it's all in the eye of the beholder so to speak. If you're a new business starting up, your software and your application is your entire business. So if you have a cold start latency or God forbid something actually goes down, you don't have a business. So it's just as mission critical to that founder of a new business and new technology as it is, you know, an established enterprise that's running sort of a more, you know, day-to-day application that we may all interact with. So we treat all of those scenarios with equal fervor and importance right? And many times, it's a lot of those new experiences that the become the day-to-day experiences for us globally, and are super important. And we power all of those, whether it be an established enterprise all the way to the next big startup. >> I often talk about COVID as the forced march to digital. >> Sahir: Mm-Hmm. >> Which was obviously a little bit rushed, but if you weren't in digital business, you were out of business. And so now you're seeing people step back and say, "All right, let's be more thoughtful about our digital transformation. We've got some time, we've obviously learned some things made some mistakes." It's all about the customer experience though. And that becomes mission critical right? What are you seeing Guillermo, in terms of the patterns in digital transformation now that we're sort of exiting the isolation economy? >> One thing that comes to mind is, we're seeing that it's not always predictable how fast you're going to grow in this digital economy. So we have customers in the ecommerce space, they do a drop and they're piggybacking on serverless to give them that ability to instantly scale. And they couldn't even prepare for some of these events. We see that a lot with the Web3 space and NFT drops, where they're building in such a way that they're not sensitive to this massive fluctuations in traffic. They're taking it for granted. We've put in so much work together behind the scenes to support it. But the digital native creator just, "Oh things are scaling from one second to the next like I'm hitting like 20,000 requests per second, no problem Vercel is handling it." But the amount of infrastructural work that's gone behind the scenes in support has been incredible. >> We see that in gaming all the time, you know it's really hard for a gaming company to necessarily predict where in the globe a game's going to be particularly hot. Games get super popular super fast if they're successful, it's really hard to predict. It's another vertical that's got a similar dynamic. >> So gaming, crypto, so you're saying that you're able to assist your customers in architecting so that the website doesn't crash. >> Guillermo: Absolutely. >> But at the same time, if the the business dynamic changes, they can dial down. >> Yeah. >> Right and in many ways, slow is the new down, right? And if somebody has a slow experience they're going to leave your site just as much as if it's- >> I'm out of here- >> You were down. So you know, it's really maintaining that really fast performance, that amazing customer experience. Because this is all measured, it's scientific. Like anytime there's friction in the process, you're going to lose customers. >> So obviously people are excited about your keynote, but what have they been saying? Any specific comments you can share, or questions that you got that were really interesting or? >> I'm already getting links to the apps that people are deploying. So the whole idea- >> Come on! >> All over the world. Yeah so it's already working I'm excited. >> So they were show they were showing off, "Look what I did" Really? >> Yeah on Twitter. >> That's amazing. >> I think from my standpoint, I got a question earlier, we were with a bunch of financial analysts and investors, and they said they've been talking to a lot of the customers in the halls. And just to see, you know, from the last time we were all in person, the number of our customers that are using multiple capabilities across this idea of a developer data platform, you know, certainly MongoDB's been a popular core database open source for a long time. But the new capabilities around search, analytics, mobile being adopted much more broadly to power these experiences is the most exciting thing from our side. >> So from 2019 to now, you're saying substantial uptick in adoption for these features? >> Yeah. And many of them are new. >> Time series as well, that's pretty new, so yeah. >> Yeah and you know, our philosophy of development at MongoDB is to get capabilities in the hands of customers early. Get that feedback to enrich and drive that product-market fit. And over the last three years especially, we've been transitioning from a single product kind of core, you know, non relational modern database to a data platform, a developer data platform that adds more and more capabilities to power these modern applications. And a lot of those were released during the pandemic. Certainly we talked about them in our virtual conferences and all the zoom meetings we had over the years. But to actually go talk to all these customers, this is the largest conference we've ever put on, and to get a sense of, wow all the amazing things they're doing with them, it's definitely a different feeling when we're all together. >> So that's interesting, when you have such a hot product, product-led growth which is what Mongo has been in, and you add these new features. They're coming from the developers who are saying, "Hey, we need this." >> Yip. >> Okay so you have a pretty high degree of confidence, but how do you know when you have product-market fit? I mean, is it adoption, usage, renewals? What's your metric? >> Yeah I think it's a mix of quantitative measures that you know, around conversion rates, the size of your funnel, the retention rate, NPS which obviously can be measured, but also just qualitative. You know when you're talking to a developer or a technology executive around what their needs are, and then you see how they actually apply it to solve a problem, it's that balance between the qualitative and the quantitative measurement of things. And you can just sort of, frankly you can feel it. You can see it in the numbers sure, but you can kind of feel that excitement, you can see that adoption and what it empowers people to do. And so to me, as a product leader, it's always a blend of those things. If you get too obsessed with purely the metrics, you can always over optimize something for the wrong reason. So you have to bring in that qualitative feedback to balance yourself out. >> Right. >> Guillermo, what's next? What do you not have that you want from Sahir and Mongo? >> So the natural next step for serverless computing is, is the Edge. So we have to auto-scale, we have to tolerate fares. We have to be avail. We have to be easy, but we have to be global. And right now we've been doing this by using a lot of techniques like caching and replication and things like this. But the future's about personalizing even more to each visitor depending on where they are. So if I'm in New York, I want to get the latest offers for New York on demand, just for me, and using AI to continue to personalize that experience. So giving the developer these tools in a way where it feels natural to build an application like this. It doesn't feel like, "Oh I'm going to do this year 10 if I make it, I'm going to do it since the very beginning." >> Dave: Okay interesting. So that says to me that I'm not going to make a round trip to the cloud necessarily for that experience. So I'm going to have some kind, Apple today, at the Worldwide Developer Conference announced the M2, right. I've been looking at the M1 Ultra, and I'm going wow look at that! And so- >> Sahir: You were talking about that new one backstage. >> I mean it's this amazing pace of Silicon development and they're focusing on the NPU and you look at what Tesla's doing. I mean it's just incredible. So you're going to have some new hardware architecture that emerges. Most of the AI that's done today is modeling in the cloud. You're going to have a real time inferencing at the Edge. So that's not going to do the round trip. There's going to be a data store there, I think it has to be. You're going to persist some of the data, maybe not all of it. So it's a whole new architecture- >> Sahir: Absolutely. >> That's developing. That sounds very disruptive. >> Sahir: Yeah. >> How do you think about that, and how does Mongo play there? Guillermo first. >> What I spent a lot of time thinking about is obviously the developer experience, giving the programmer a programming model that is natural, intuitive, and produces its great results. So if they have to think about data that's local because of regulatory reasons for example, how can we let the framework guide them to success? I'm just writing an application I deployed to the cloud and then everything else is figured out. >> Yeah or speed of light is another challenge. (Sahir and Guillermo laugh) >> How can we overcome the speed of light is our next task for sure. >> Well you're working on that aren't you? You've got the best engineers on that one. (Sahir and Guillermo laugh) >> We can solve a lot of problems, I'm not sure of that one. >> So Mongo plays in that scenario or? >> Yeah so I think, absolutely you know, we've been focused heavily on becoming the globally distributed cloud data layer. The back-end data layer that allows you to persist data to align with performance and move data where it needs to be globally or deal with data sovereignty, data nationalism that's starting to rise, but absolutely there is more data being pushed out to the Edge, to your point around processing or inference happening at the Edge. And there's going to be a globally distributed front-end layer as well, whether data and processing takes apart. And so we're focused on one, making sure the data connectivity and the layer is all connected into one unified architecture. We do that in combination with technologies that we have that do with mobility or edge distribution and synchronization of data with realm. And we do it with partnerships. We have edge partnerships with AWS and Verizon. We have partnerships with a lot of CVM players who are building out that Edge platform and making sure that MongoDB is either connected to it or just driving that synchronization back and forth. >> I call that unified experience super cloud, Robbie Belson from Verizon the cloud continuum, but that consistent experience for developers whether you're on Prim, whether you're in you know, Azure, Google, AWS, and ultimately the Edge. That's the big- >> That's where it's going. >> White space right now I'm hearing, Guillermo, right? >> I think it'll define the next generation of how software is built. And we're seeing this almost like a coalition course between some of the ideas that the Web3 developers are excited about, which is like decentralization almost to the extreme. But the Web2 also needs more decentralization, because we're seeing it with like, the data needs to be local to me, I need more privacy. I was looking at the latest encryption features in Mongo, like I think both Web2 need to incorporate more of the ideas of Web3 and vice versa to create the best possible consumer experience. Privacy matters more than ever before. Latency for conversion matters more than ever before. And regulations are changing. >> Sahir: Yeah. >> And you talked about Web3 earlier, talked about new protocols, a new distributed you know, decentralized system emerging, new hardware architectures. I really believe we really think that new economics are going to bleed back into the data center, and yeah every 15 years or so this industry gets disrupted. >> Sahir: Yeah. >> Guillermo: Absolutely. >> You know you ain't see nothing yet guys. >> We all talked about hardware becoming commoditized 10, 15 years ago- >> Yeah of course. >> We get the virtualization, and it's like nope not at all. It's actually a lot of invention happening. >> The lower the price the more the consumption. So guys thanks so much. Great conversation. >> Thank you. >> Really appreciate your time. >> Really appreciate it I enjoyed the conversation. >> All right and thanks for watching. Keep it right there. We'll be back with our next segment right after this short break. Dave Vellante for theCUBE's coverage of MongoDB World 2022. >> Man Offscreen: Clear. (clapping) >> All right wow. Don't get up. >> Sahir: Okay. >> Is that a Moonwatch? >> Sahir: It is a Speedmaster but it's that the-

>> Man Offscreen: Standby. Dave is coming you in 5, 4, 3, 2. >> We're back at the Big Apple, theCUBE's coverage of MongoDB World 2022. Sahir Azam is here, he's the Chief Product Officer of MongoDB, and Guillermo Rauch who's the CEO of Vercel. Hot off the keynotes from this morning guys, good job. >> Thank you. >> Thank you. >> Thank you for joining us here. Thanks for having us. Guillermo when it comes to modern web development, you know the back-end, the cloud guys got to it kind of sewn up, >> you know- >> Guillermo: Forget about it. >> But all the action's in the front end, and that's where you are. Explain Vercel. >> Yeah so Vercel is the company that pioneers front-end development as serverless infrastructure. So we built Next.js which is the most popular React framework in the world. This is what front-end engineers choose to build innovative UI's, beautiful websites. Companies like Dior and GitHub and TikTok and Twitch, which we mentioned in the keynote, are powering their entire dot-coms or all of their new parts of their dot-coms with Next.js. And Vercel is the serverless platform where you can deploy frameworks like in Next.js and others like Svelte and Vue to create really fast experiences on the web. >> So I hear, so serverless, I hear that's the hot trend. You guys made some announcements today. I mean when you look at the, we have spending data with our friends at ETR right down the street. I mean it's just off the charts, whether it's Amazon, Google, Azure Functions, I mean it's just exploding. >> Sahir: Yeah, it's I think in many ways, it's a natural trend. You know, we talk a lot about, whether it be today's keynote or another industry talks you see around our industry that developers are constantly looking for ways to focus on innovation and the business logic that defines their application and as opposed to managing the plumbing, and management of infrastructure. And we've seen this happen over and over again across every layer of the stack. And so for us, you know MongoDB, we have a bit of, you know sort of a lens of a broad spectrum of the market. We certainly have you know, large enterprises that are modernizing existing kind of core systems, then we have developers all over the world who are building the next big best thing. And that's what led us to partner with Vercel is just the bleeding edge of developers building in a new way, in a much more efficient way. And we wanted to make sure we provide a data platform that fits naturally in the way they want to work. >> So explain to our audience the trade-offs of serverless, and I want to get into sort of how you've resolved that. And then I want to hear from Guillermo, what that means for developers. >> Sahir: Yeah in our case, we don't view it as an either or, there are certain workloads and definitely certain companies that will gravitate towards a more traditional database infrastructure where they're choosing the configuration of their cluster. They want full control over it. And that provides, you know, certain benefits around cost predictability or isolation or perceived benefits at least of those things. And customers will gravitate towards that. Now on the flip side, if you're building a new application or you want the ability to scale seamlessly and not have to worry about any of the plumbing, serverless is clearly the easier model. So over the long term, we certainly expect to see as a mix of things, more and more serverless workloads being built on our platform and just generally in the industry, which is why we leaned in so heavily on investing in Atlas serverless. But the flexibility to not be forced into a particular model, but to get the same database experience across your application and even switch between them is an important characteristic for us as we build going forward. >> And you stressed the cost efficiency, and not having to worry about, you know, starting cold. You've architected around that, and what does that mean for a developer? >> Guillermo: For a developer it means that you kind of get the best of both worlds, right? Like you get the best possible performance. Front-end developers are extremely sensitive to this. That's why us pioneering this concept, serverless front-end, has put us in a very privileged position because we have to deliver that really quick time to first buy, that really quick paint. So any of the old trade-offs of serverless are not accepted by the market. You have to be extremely fast. You have to be instant to deliver that front-end content. So what we talked about today for example, with the Vercel Edge network, we're removing all of the cost of that like first hit. That cold start doesn't really exist. And now we're seeing it all across the board, going into the back-end where Mongo has also gotten rid of it. >> Dave: How do you guys collaborate? What's the focus of integration specifically from, you know, an engineering resource standpoint? >> Yeah the main idea is, idea to global app in seconds, right? You have your idea. We give you the framework. We don't give you infrastructure primitives. We give you all the necessary tools to start your application. In practice this means you host it in a Git repo. You import it onto Vercel. You install the Mongo integration. Now your front-end and your data back-end are connected. And then your application just goes global in seconds. >> So, okay. So you've abstracted away the complexity of those primitives, is that correct? >> Guillermo: Absolutely. >> Do do developers ever say, "That's awesome but I'd like to get to them every now and then." Or do you not allow that? >> Definitely. We expose all the underlying APIs, and the key thing we hear is that, especially with the push for usage-based billing models, observability is of the essence. So at any time you have to be able to query, in real time, every data point that the platform is observing. We give you performance analytics in real time to see how your front-end is performing. We give you statistics about how often you're querying your back-end and so on, and your cache hit ratios. So what I talked about today in the keynote is, it's not just about throwing more compute at the problem, but the ability to use the edge to your advantage to memoize computation and reuse it across different visits. >> When we think of mission critical historically, you know, you think about going to the ATM, right? I mean a financial transaction. But Mongo is positioning for mission critical applications across a variety of industries. Do we need to rethink what mission critical means? >> I think it's all in the eye of the beholder so to speak. If you're a new business starting up, your software and your application is your entire business. So if you have a cold start latency or God forbid something actually goes down, you don't have a business. So it's just as mission critical to that founder of a new business and new technology as it is, you know, an established enterprise that's running sort of a more, you know, day-to-day application that we may all interact with. So we treat all of those scenarios with equal fervor and importance right? And many times, it's a lot of those new experiences that the become the day-to-day experiences for us globally, and are super important. And we power all of those, whether it be an established enterprise all the way to the next big startup. >> I often talk about COVID as the forced march to digital. >> Sahir: Mm-Hmm. >> Which was obviously a little bit rushed, but if you weren't in digital business, you were out of business. And so now you're seeing people step back and say, "All right, let's be more thoughtful about our digital transformation. We've got some time, we've obviously learned some things made some mistakes." It's all about the customer experience though. And that becomes mission critical right? What are you seeing Guillermo, in terms of the patterns in digital transformation now that we're sort of exiting the isolation economy? >> One thing that comes to mind is, we're seeing that it's not always predictable how fast you're going to grow in this digital economy. So we have customers in the ecommerce space, they do a drop and they're piggybacking on serverless to give them that ability to instantly scale. And they couldn't even prepare for some of these events. We see that a lot with the Web3 space and NFT drops, where they're building in such a way that they're not sensitive to this massive fluctuations in traffic. They're taking it for granted. We've put in so much work together behind the scenes to support it. But the digital native creator just, "Oh things are scaling from one second to the next like I'm hitting like 20,000 requests per second, no problem Vercel is handling it." But the amount of infrastructural work that's gone behind the scenes in support has been incredible. >> We see that in gaming all the time, you know it's really hard for a gaming company to necessarily predict where in the globe a game's going to be particularly hot. Games get super popular super fast if they're successful, it's really hard to predict. It's another vertical that's got a similar dynamic. >> So gaming, crypto, so you're saying that you're able to assist your customers in architecting so that the website doesn't crash. >> Guillermo: Absolutely. >> But at the same time, if the the business dynamic changes, they can dial down. >> Yeah. >> Right and in many ways, slow is the new down, right? And if somebody has a slow experience they're going to leave your site just as much as if it's- >> I'm out of here- >> You were down. So you know, it's really maintaining that really fast performance, that amazing customer experience. Because this is all measured, it's scientific. Like anytime there's friction in the process, you're going to lose customers. >> So obviously people are excited about your keynote, but what have they been saying? Any specific comments you can share, or questions that you got that were really interesting or? >> I'm already getting links to the apps that people are deploying. So the whole idea- >> Come on! >> All over the world. Yeah so it's already working I'm excited. >> So they were show they were showing off, "Look what I did" Really? >> Yeah on Twitter. >> That's amazing. >> I think from my standpoint, I got a question earlier, we were with a bunch of financial analysts and investors, and they said they've been talking to a lot of the customers in the halls. And just to see, you know, from the last time we were all in person, the number of our customers that are using multiple capabilities across this idea of a developer data platform, you know, certainly MongoDB's been a popular core database open source for a long time. But the new capabilities around search, analytics, mobile being adopted much more broadly to power these experiences is the most exciting thing from our side. >> So from 2019 to now, you're saying substantial uptick in adoption for these features? >> Yeah. And many of them are new. >> Time series as well, that's pretty new, so yeah. >> Yeah and you know, our philosophy of development at MongoDB is to get capabilities in the hands of customers early. Get that feedback to enrich and drive that product-market fit. And over the last three years especially, we've been transitioning from a single product kind of core, you know, non relational modern database to a data platform, a developer data platform that adds more and more capabilities to power these modern applications. And a lot of those were released during the pandemic. Certainly we talked about them in our virtual conferences and all the zoom meetings we had over the years. But to actually go talk to all these customers, this is the largest conference we've ever put on, and to get a sense of, wow all the amazing things they're doing with them, it's definitely a different feeling when we're all together. >> So that's interesting, when you have such a hot product, product-led growth which is what Mongo has been in, and you add these new features. They're coming from the developers who are saying, "Hey, we need this." >> Yip. >> Okay so you have a pretty high degree of confidence, but how do you know when you have product-market fit? I mean, is it adoption, usage, renewals? What's your metric? >> Yeah I think it's a mix of quantitative measures that you know, around conversion rates, the size of your funnel, the retention rate, NPS which obviously can be measured, but also just qualitative. You know when you're talking to a developer or a technology executive around what their needs are, and then you see how they actually apply it to solve a problem, it's that balance between the qualitative and the quantitative measurement of things. And you can just sort of, frankly you can feel it. You can see it in the numbers sure, but you can kind of feel that excitement, you can see that adoption and what it empowers people to do. And so to me, as a product leader, it's always a blend of those things. If you get too obsessed with purely the metrics, you can always over optimize something for the wrong reason. So you have to bring in that qualitative feedback to balance yourself out. >> Right. >> Guillermo, what's next? What do you not have that you want from Sahir and Mongo? >> So the natural next step for serverless computing is, is the Edge. So we have to auto-scale, we have to tolerate fares. We have to be avail. We have to be easy, but we have to be global. And right now we've been doing this by using a lot of techniques like caching and replication and things like this. But the future's about personalizing even more to each visitor depending on where they are. So if I'm in New York, I want to get the latest offers for New York on demand, just for me, and using AI to continue to personalize that experience. So giving the developer these tools in a way where it feels natural to build an application like this. It doesn't feel like, "Oh I'm going to do this year 10 if I make it, I'm going to do it since the very beginning." >> Dave: Okay interesting. So that says to me that I'm not going to make a round trip to the cloud necessarily for that experience. So I'm going to have some kind, Apple today, at the Worldwide Developer Conference announced the M2, right. I've been looking at the M1 Ultra, and I'm going wow look at that! And so- >> Sahir: You were talking about that new one backstage. >> I mean it's this amazing pace of Silicon development and they're focusing on the NPU and you look at what Tesla's doing. I mean it's just incredible. So you're going to have some new hardware architecture that emerges. Most of the AI that's done today is modeling in the cloud. You're going to have a real time inferencing at the Edge. So that's not going to do the round trip. There's going to be a data store there, I think it has to be. You're going to persist some of the data, maybe not all of it. So it's a whole new architecture- >> Sahir: Absolutely. >> That's developing. That sounds very disruptive. >> Sahir: Yeah. >> How do you think about that, and how does Mongo play there? Guillermo first. >> What I spent a lot of time thinking about is obviously the developer experience, giving the programmer a programming model that is natural, intuitive, and produces its great results. So if they have to think about data that's local because of regulatory reasons for example, how can we let the framework guide them to success? I'm just writing an application I deployed to the cloud and then everything else is figured out. >> Yeah or speed of light is another challenge. (Sahir and Guillermo laugh) >> How can we overcome the speed of light is our next task for sure. >> Well you're working on that aren't you? You've got the best engineers on that one. (Sahir and Guillermo laugh) >> We can solve a lot of problems, I'm not sure of that one. >> So Mongo plays in that scenario or? >> Yeah so I think, absolutely you know, we've been focused heavily on becoming the globally distributed cloud data layer. The back-end data layer that allows you to persist data to align with performance and move data where it needs to be globally or deal with data sovereignty, data nationalism that's starting to rise, but absolutely there is more data being pushed out to the Edge, to your point around processing or inference happening at the Edge. And there's going to be a globally distributed front-end layer as well, whether data and processing takes apart. And so we're focused on one, making sure the data connectivity and the layer is all connected into one unified architecture. We do that in combination with technologies that we have that do with mobility or edge distribution and synchronization of data with realm. And we do it with partnerships. We have edge partnerships with AWS and Verizon. We have partnerships with a lot of CVM players who are building out that Edge platform and making sure that MongoDB is either connected to it or just driving that synchronization back and forth. >> I call that unified experience super cloud, Robbie Belson from Verizon the cloud continuum, but that consistent experience for developers whether you're on Prim, whether you're in you know, Azure, Google, AWS, and ultimately the Edge. That's the big- >> That's where it's going. >> White space right now I'm hearing, Guillermo, right? >> I think it'll define the next generation of how software is built. And we're seeing this almost like a coalition course between some of the ideas that the Web3 developers are excited about, which is like decentralization almost to the extreme. But the Web2 also needs more decentralization, because we're seeing it with like, the data needs to be local to me, I need more privacy. I was looking at the latest encryption features in Mongo, like I think both Web2 need to incorporate more of the ideas of Web3 and vice versa to create the best possible consumer experience. Privacy matters more than ever before. Latency for conversion matters more than ever before. And regulations are changing. >> Sahir: Yeah. >> And you talked about Web3 earlier, talked about new protocols, a new distributed you know, decentralized system emerging, new hardware architectures. I really believe we really think that new economics are going to bleed back into the data center, and yeah every 15 years or so this industry gets disrupted. >> Sahir: Yeah. >> Guillermo: Absolutely. >> You know you ain't see nothing yet guys. >> We all talked about hardware becoming commoditized 10, 15 years ago- >> Yeah of course. >> We get the virtualization, and it's like nope not at all. It's actually a lot of invention happening. >> The lower the price the more the consumption. So guys thanks so much. Great conversation. >> Thank you. >> Really appreciate your time. >> Really appreciate it I enjoyed the conversation. >> All right and thanks for watching. Keep it right there. We'll be back with our next segment right after this short break. Dave Vellante for theCUBE's coverage of MongoDB World 2022. >> Man Offscreen: Clear. (clapping) >> All right wow. Don't get up. >> Sahir: Okay. >> Is that a Moonwatch? >> Sahir: It is a Speedmaster but it's that the-

>> Hi, I'm Stu Miniman, and welcome back to theCUBE on Cloud talking about really important topics as to how developers, were changing how they build their applications, where they live, of course, long discussion we've had for a number of years. You know, how do things change in hybrid environments? We've been talking for years, public cloud and private cloud, and really excited for this session. We're going to talk about how edge environment and AI impact that. So happy to welcome back one of our CUBE alumni, Simon Crosby, is currently the Chief Technology Officer with Swim. He's got plenty of viewpoints on AI, the edge and knows the developer world well. Simon, welcome back. Thanks so much for joining us. >> Thank you, Stu, for having me. >> All right, so let's start for a second. Let's talk about developers. You know, it used to be, you know, for years we talked about, you know, what's the level of abstraction we get. Does it sit, you know, do I put it on bare metal? Do I virtualize it? Do I containerize it? Do I make it serverless? A lot of those things, you know that the app developer doesn't want to even think about but location matters a whole lot when we're talking about things like AI where do I have all my data that I could do my training? Where do I actually have to do the processing? And of course, edge just changes by orders of magnitude. Some of the things like latency and where data lives and everything like that. So with that as a setup, would love to get just your framework as to what you're hearing from developers and what we'll get into some of the solutions that you and your team are helping them to do their jobs. >> Well, you're absolutely right, Stu. The data onslaught is very real. Companies that I deal with are facing more and more real-time data from products from their infrastructure, from their partners whatever it happens to be and they need to make decisions rapidly. And the problem that they're facing is that traditional ways of processing that data are too slow. So perhaps the big data approach, which by now is a bit old, it's a bit long in the tooth, where you store data and then you analyze it later, is problematic. First of all, data streams are boundless. So you don't really know when to analyze, but second you can't store it all. And so the store then analyze approach has to change and Swim is trying to do something about this by adopting a process of analyze on the fly, so as data is generated, as you receive events you don't bother to store them. You analyze them, and then if you have to, you store the data, but you need to analyze as you receive data and react immediately to be able to generate reasonable insights or predictions that can drive commerce and decisions in the real world. >> Yeah absolutely. I remember back in the early days of big data, you know, real time got thrown around a little but it was usually I need to react fast enough to make sure we don't lose the customer, react to something, but it was, we gather all the data and let's move compute to the data. Today as you talk about, you know, real time streams are so important. We've been talking about observability for the last couple of years to just really understand the systems and the outputs more than looking back historically at where things were waiting for alerts. So could you give us some examples if you would, as to you know, those streams, you know, what is so important about being able to interact and leverage that data when you need it? And boy, it's great if we can use it then and not have to store it and think about it later, obviously there's some benefits there, because-- >> Well every product nowadays has a CPU, right? And so there's more and more data. And just let me give you an example, Swim processes real-time data from more than a hundred million mobile devices in real time, for a mobile operator. And what we're doing there is we're optimizing connection quality between devices and the network. Now that volume of data is more than four petabytes per day, okay. Now there is simply no way you can ever store that and analyze it later. The interesting thing about this is that if you adopt and analyze, and then if you really have to store architecture, you get to take advantage of Moore's Law. So you're running at CPU memory speeds instead of at disk speed. And so that gives you a million fold speed up, and it also means you don't have the latency problem of reaching out to, or about storage, database, or whatever. And so that reduces costs. So we can do it on about 10% of the infrastructure that they previously had for Hadoop style implementation. >> So, maybe it would help if we just explain. When we say edge people think of a lot of different things, is it, you know an IOT device sitting out at the edge? Are we talking about the Telecom edge? We've been watching AWS for years, you know, spider out their services and into various environments. So when you talk about the type of solutions you're doing and what your customers have, is it the Telecom edge? Is it the actual device edge, you know, where does processing happen and where do these you know, services that work on it live? >> So I think the right way to think about edge is where can you reasonably process the data? And it obviously makes sense to process data at the first opportunity you have, but much data is encrypted between the original device, say, and the application. And so edge as a place doesn't make as much sense as edge as an opportunity to decrypt and analyze data in the clear. So edge computing is not so much a place in my view as the first opportunity you have to process data in the clear and to make sense of it. And then edge makes sense, in terms of latency, by locating, compute, as close as possible to the sources of data, to reduce latency and maximize your ability to get insights and return them to users, you know, quickly. So edge for me often is the cloud. >> Excellent, one of the other things I think about back from, you know, the big data days or even earlier, it was that how long it took to get from the raw data to processing that data, to be able to getting some insight, and then being able to take action. It sure sounds like we're trying to collapse that completely, is that, you know, how do we do that? You know, can we actually, you know, build the system so that we can, you know, in that real time, continuous model that you talk about, you know. Take care of it and move on. >> So one of the wonderful things, one of the wonderful things about cloud computing is that two major abstractions have really served us. And those are rest, which is static disk computing, and databases. And rest means any old server can do the job for me and then the database is just an API call away. The problem with that is that it's desperately slow. So when I say desperately slow, I mean, it's probably thrown away the last 10 years of Moore's law. Just think about it this way. Your CPU runs at gigahertz and the network runs at milliseconds. So by definition, every time you reach out to a data store you're going a million times slower than your CPU. That's terrible. It's absolutely tragic, okay. So a model which is much more effective is to have an in-memory computer architecture in which you engage in staple computation. So instead of having to reach out to a database every time to update the database and whatever, you know, store something, and then fetch it again a few moments later when the next event arrives, you keep state in memory and you compute on the fly as data arrives. And that way you get a million times speed up. You also end up with this tremendous cost reduction because you don't end up with as many instances having to compute, by comparison. So let me give you a quick example. If you go to a traffic.swim.ai you can see the real time state of the traffic infrastructure in Palo Alto. And each one of those intersections is predicting its own future. Now, the volume of data from just a few hundred lights in Palo Alto is about four terabytes a day. And sure you can deal with this in AWS Lambda. There are lots and lots of servers up there. But the problem is that the end to end per event latency is about 100 milliseconds. And, you know, if I'm dealing with 30,000 events a second, that's just too much. So solving that problem with a stateless architecture is extraordinarily expensive, more than $5,000 a month. Whereas the staple architecture which you could think of as an evolution of, you know, something reactive or the actor model, gets you, you know something like a 10th of the cost, okay. So cloud is fabulous for things that need to scale wide but a staple model is required for dealing with things which update you rapidly or regularly about their changes in state. >> Yeah, absolutely. You know, I think about if, I mentioned before AI training models, often, if you look at something like autonomous vehicles, the massive amounts of data that it needs to process, you know, has to happen in the public cloud. But then that gets pushed back down to the end device, in this case it's a car, because it needs to be able to react in real time and gets fed at a regular update, the new training algorithms that it has there. What are you seeing-- >> I have strong reason on this training approach and data science in general, and that is that there aren't enough data scientists or, you know, smart people to train these algorithms, deploy them to the edge and so on. And so there is an alternative worldview which is a much simpler one and that is that relatively simple algorithms deployed at scale to staple representatives, let's call them digital twins of things, can deliver enormous improvements in behavior as things learn for themselves. So the way I think the, at least this edge world, gets smarter is that relatively simple models of things will learn for themselves, create their own futures, based on what they can see and then react. And so this idea that we have lots and lots of data scientists dealing with vast amounts of information in the cloud is suitable for certain algorithms but it doesn't work for the vast majority of applications. >> So where are we with the state of what, what do developers need to think about? You mentioned that there's compute in most devices. That's true, but, you know, do they need some special Nvidia chip set out there? Are there certain programming languages that you are seeing more prevalent, interoperability, give us a little bit of, you know, some tips and tricks for those developing. >> Super, so number one, a staple architecture is fundamental and sure React is well known and there are ACA for example, and Spurling. Swim is another so I'm going to use some language and I would encourage you to look at swimos.org to go from play there. A staple architecture, which allows actors, small concurrent objects to stapely evolve their own state based on updates from the real world is fundamental. By the way, in Swim we use data to build these models. So these little agents, for things, we call them web agents because the object ID is a URI, they stapley evolve by processing their own real-world data, stapley representing it, And then they do this wonderful thing which is build a model on the fly. And they build a model by linking to things that they're related to. So a need section would link to all of its sensors but it would also link to all of its neighbors because the neighbors and linking is like a sub in Pub/Sub, and it allows that web agent then to continually analyze, learn, and predict on the fly. And so every one of these concurrent objects is doing this job of analyzing its own raw data and then predicting from that and streaming the result. So in Swim, you get streamed raw data in and what streams out is predictions, predictions about the future state of the infrastructure. And that's a very powerful staple approach which can run all their memory, no storage required. By the way, it's still persistent, so if you lose a node, you can just come back up and carry on but there's no need to store huge amounts of raw data if you don't need it. And let me just be clear. The volumes of raw data from the real world are staggering, right? So four terabytes a day from Palo Alto, but Las Vegas about 60 terabytes a day from the traffic lights. More than 100 million mobile devices is tens of petabytes per day, which is just too much to store. >> Well, Simon, you've mentioned that we have a shortage when it comes to data scientists and the people that can be involved in those things. How about from the developers side, do most enterprises that you're talking to do they have the skillset? Is the ecosystem mature enough for the company to get involved? What do we need to do looking forward to help companies be able to take advantage of this opportunity? >> Yeah, so there is this huge challenge in terms of, I guess, just cloud native skills. And this is exacerbated the more you get added to. I guess what you could think of is traditional kind of companies, all of whom have tons and tons of data sources. So we need to make it easy and Swim tries to do this by effectively using skills that people already have, Java or JavaScript, and giving them easy ways to develop, deploy, and then run applications without thinking about them. So instead of binding developers to notions of place and where databases are and all that sort of stuff if they can write simple object-oriented programs about things like intersections and push buttons, and pedestrian lights, and inroad loops and so on, and simply relate basic objects in the world to each other then we let data build the model by essentially creating these little concurrent objects for each thing, and they will then link to each other and solve the problem. We end up solving a huge problem for developers too, which is that they don't need to acquire complicated cloud-native skillsets to get to work. >> Well absolutely, Simon, it's something we've been trying to do for a long time is to truly simplify things. Want to let you have the final word. If you look out there, the opportunity, the challenge in the space, what final takeaways would you give to our audience? >> So very simple. If you adopt a staple competing architecture, like Swim, you get to go a million times faster. The applications always have an answer. They analyze, learn and predict on the fly and they go a million times faster. They use 10% less, no, sorry, 10% of the infrastructure of a store than analyze approach. And it's the way of the future. >> Simon Crosby, thanks so much for sharing. Great having you on the program. >> Thank you, Stu. >> And thank you for joining I'm Stu Miniman, thank you, as always, for watching theCUBE.

(soft music) >> From theCUBE studios in Palo Alto, in Boston, connecting with thought leaders all around the world. This is theCUBE Conversation. >> Hi, I'm Stu Miniman coming to you from our Boston area studio here for a CUBE conversation. Really like when we can dig into help some of the nonprofits in our industry, going to be talking about, training, helping other people lift up their careers. Happy to welcome to the program, first time guests, Jerome Hardaway. He's the founder of vets who code coming down from Nashville, Jerome, I seem to remember a time where I was able to travel. I did some lovely hiking even saw bear last time I was down in Nashville. Thanks so much for joining us. Roger that. Thank you, a funny story. I saw a cow on the loose while driving on the highway yesterday. So not much has changed. (Jerome laughs) Thank you guys for having me. >> Yeah, it is a little bit of strange times here in the Covert area. I live kind of suburban Massachusetts area. One of my neighbors did report a small bear in the area. I'm definitely seeing more than just the usual, what kind of wild turkeys and the like that we get up in New England, but let's talk about Vets Who Code. So, you're the founder, the name doesn't leave much up for us to guess what you do, but tell us a little bit as to the inspiration and the goals of your organization. Roger that, Vets Who Code is the first veteran founded, operated and led, a remote 501 C three that focuses on training veterans regardless where they are and modern age of technologies. Our stack right now, I would say is focused more towards front-end DevOps with a lot of serverless technologies being built-in. And that's pretty much what exactly what we do well. >> Well awesome, I had been loving digging into the serverless ecosystem the last few years. Definitely an exciting area, help us understand a little bit, who comes and joins this? What skill set do they have to have coming in? And explain a little bit the programs that they can offer that they can be part of. >> Yeah, cool. So we run Vets Who Code like a mixture between a tech company or a tech nonprofit, I guess, using those practices while also using military practices as well. And the people that come in are veterans and military spouses. And we try to use what we call a pattern matching practice, showcasing like. Hey, these are the things, he's been in military. This is how it translates to the tech side. Like, our sit reps is what you guys would call stand up. Kanban is what we would call like systems checks and frag orders, Op orders, things like that, or, our SLPs. So we turn around, we just train them, retrain them. So that way they can understand the lingo, understand how things, how you code, move and communicate and make sure that these guys and girls, they know how the work as JavaScript engineers and a serverless community. As of right now, we've helped 252 veterans in 37 States get jobs, our social economic impacts, then I think it's at 17.6 million right now. So it all from the comfort of their homes, that's like the cool and free, and those are like the coolest things that we've been able to do. >> Wow, that's fascinating. Jerome, I heard something that you've talked about, leveraging the military organizational styles. I'm just curious, there's in the coding world a lot of times we talk about Conway's law, which is that the code will end up resembling the look of the organization. And you talk about DevOps, DevOps is all about various organizations collaborating and working together. It seems a little bit different from what I would think of traditional military command and control. So is that anything you've given any thought to? Is there some of the organizational pieces that you need to talk to people about? Moving into these environments compared to what they might've had in the military. >> Negative, I think the biggest misconception that we have is that people, when you're talking about how the military moves, they're thinking of the military of yesteryear of 20, 30, 40 years ago. They're not thinking of global war on terrorism veterans and how we move and things like that. We understand distributed chains. We understand cause we call, that's what we've done at CENTAF and CENTCOM in Iraq and Afghanistan. So we honored, like we are already doing a lot of this stuff, we just naming it different. So that's part of the thing that we have as an advantage as the, cause all the people who are educators, there are veterans who learn how to code and they've been working in industry and they know. And so when they're teaching, they know the entire process that a veteran's going to go through. So that's how now we focus on things. And so the organizational structure for us first term to second term veterans is pretty normal. If you're coming out within the last, heck 10 years. (Jerome laughs) >> Yeah, absolutely. That's wonderful. And I I've had the opportunity to work with plenty of people that had come from the military. Very successful in the tech industry, definitely tend to be hard workers and engaged in what they'r doing. Curious, you talked about being able to do this remotely and then it is free. What's the impact of the current global pandemic? Everything that's happening here in 2020 been on what you're doing in your resources. >> Of the impact, unfortunately, I mean, not unfortunately, fortunately it has been nothing but positive. It's been crazy, we've gotten more applications. We have people are seeing that during, I was the crazy person in the room, when in 2014, when I was saying nonprofits should move to remote first protocols. So that way they could have greater impact for less, with less financial resources. And back then I was the, like what are you talking about? This is the way we've always done. Well now everybody was scrambling to try to figure out how to help people without being in same room with them. We were like, Oh, okay, lt's do today. So we got an influx of people applying, influx of people, sending me, trying to get into our next cohort in August. It's just, the biggest thing that has happened for Vets Who Code is yet, it's been a really positive experience for us, which is really weird to say, but I think it has, my doomsday Murphy's law style of preparing, I assume that anything that can go wrong will go wrong. So I try to prepare for that. So being open source, being serverless, being having everything in a manner to where--in case I was out of the pot, out of the situation, other people operate having this distributed teams, or there are other leaders that can take over and do things. It's all stuff that, I guess I got from the military. So, we were know we were prepared because there was absolutely zero pivot for us. If anything, it has been more resources. We've been able to dive deeper in more subjects because people have had more time, but, we can do, we can dive deeper into AWS. We started a lunch and learn every two weeks. We actually have a lunch and learn next week with Dr. Lee Johnson. And she's going to be talking, we open that to it by all juniors and entry level devs, developers, regardless of whether you're a veteran or not, we just throw it on Twitter and let them get in. And the focus will be on tech ethics. We all know, right now we've been leading the charge on trying to make sure people are supercharging their skills during this time frame. So that's what, it's been very positive. I've been working with magazine, front-end masters. It's been awesome. >> Well, that's wonderful. Wish everyone had the mindset coming into 2020, because it does seem that anything that could go wrong has, (both laugh) I'm curious, once people have skilled up and they've gone through the program, what connections do you have with industry? How do you help with job placement in that sort of activity? >> That is the most asked question, because that is the thing that people expect because of code schools, because of our educational program protocols. We don't really need that issue because our veterans are skilled enough to where to hiring managers know the quality that we produce. I live in Nashville and I've only been able to place one veteran that I've trained locally in the community because of fame companies have snatched up every other veteran I've ever trained in the community, so things like that, it's not a problem because no, a usually 80% of our veterans have jobs before they even graduate. So you're literally picking up, picking people who, they know they have the potential to get a bit companies if they put the work in and it's just as they come, we actually have people. I think a company reached out to me yesterday and I was like, I don't even have people for you. They already have jobs. (jerome laughs) Or I'm in a situation now where all my senior devs are looking for fame companies. Cause that's one of the things we do is that we support our veterans from reentry to retirement. So we're not like other code schools where they only focus on that 30 to 60 to 90 days, so that first job, our veterans, they keep coming back to re-skill, get more skills, come up to the lunch and learns, come to our Slack side chats to become better programmers. And once they're, so we've helped several of our programmers go from entry-level dev to senior dev, from absolutely zero experience. And so, I think that's the most rewarding thing. When you see a person who they came in knowing nothing. And three years later, like after the cohort safe they got their job and then they come back after they got the jobs, they want to get more skills and they get another job and then they come back. And the next thing, my favorite, one of my favorites Schuster, he starts at a local web shop, a web dev shop in Savannah, Georgia. And then next thing, oh, he's on Amazon, he's at Amazon three years later and you're like, Oh wow, we did that, that's awesome. So that's the path that we do is awesome. >> I'm curious, are there certain skill sets that you see in more need than other? And I'm also curious, do you recommend, or do you help people along with certain certifications? Thinking, the cloud certifications definitely have been on the rise, the last couple years. >> I feel like the cloud, the cloud certifications have been on the rise because it's expensive to like test for that stuff. If a person messes up, unless you have a very dedicated environment to where they can't mess up, they can cost you a lot of money, right? So you want that certain, right? But for us, it's been, we just focused on what we like to call front-end DevOps. We focus on Jamstack, which is JavaScript, APIs and markup, also along with a lot of serverless. So we're using AWS, we're using, also they're, they're learning Lambda functions, all this stuff. We're using a query language called GraphQL. We're using Apollo with that query language. We're using some node, React, GET, Speed. And a lot of third party API has to do like a lot of heavy lifting cause we believe that the deeper dive that a person has in a language and being able to manipulate and utilize APIs that they can, the better they will be, Right? So, same way that colleges do it, but a more modern take like colleges, they give you the most painful language to learn, which is usually like C right? Where you had to make everything a very low-level language. And then you're going through this process of building. And because of that, other languages are easier because you felt the pain points. We do the same thing, but with JavaScript, because it's the most accessible, painful language on earth, that's what I called it with Wire magazine last year anyway. (jerome laughs) >> So Jerome, you've laid out how you you're well organized. You're lean and financially, making sure that things are done responsibly. We want to give you the opportunity though. What's the call to action? Vets Who Code, you're looking for more people to participate. Is it sponsorships? Work in the community, look to engage. >> Roger that, we are looking for two things. One, we're always looking for people to help support us. We're open source, we're on GitHub sponsors. Like the people who we we're up, we're open source. But the people that do most of our tickets are the students themselves. So that's one of the best things about us. there is no better move, feeling that having something in production that works, right? It actually does something right? Like, Oh, this actually helps people, right? So we help have our veterans like actually pull tickets and do things like that. But, we also, we build, we're building out teams that they're on all the time as well. We have our new tutorials team or veterans. They literally built front facing tutorials for people on the outside. So that way they can learn little skills as we also have podcasts team and they're always podcasting, always interviewing people that in community, from our mentors to our students, to our alumni. And so just, let's throw our podcasts on Spotify. Let's do some codes, the best Code podcast and sponsor song get up. >> Wonderful, Jerome. We want to give you the final word. you're very passionate. You've got a lot interested, loved hearing about some of the skill sets that you're helping others with. What's exciting you these days? What kind of things are you digging into, beyond Vets Who Code? >> Oh man, everything serverless dude. As a front-end, as a person who was full stack and move to front-end. This has never been a more exciting time to learn how to code because there's so many serverless technologies and is leveling the playing field for front-end engineers, just knowing a little bit of like server-side code and having DevOp skills and being able to work in a CLI, you can do like Jamstack and the people that are using it. You have Nike, you have governments. It's just, it's such an exciting time to be a front-end. So I'm just like, and just seeing also how people are like really turning towards wanting their data more open source. So that's another thing that's really exciting for me. I've never been a person that was very highbrow when it came to talking about code. I felt like that was kind of boring, but seeing how, when it comes to like how code is actually helping normal, average everyday people and how the culture as a whole is starting to get more hip to how, API is like our running the world and how tech is being leveraged for. And it gets them, I'm on fire with these conversations, so I try to contain it cause I don't want to scare anyone on TV, but we could talk like, we could talk hours of that stuff. Love it. >> Well, Jerome, thank you so much for sharing with our community, everything you're doing and wonderful activity Vets Who Code, definitely call out to the community, make sure check it out, support it. If you can and tie so much in Jerome, I've got a regular series I do called Cloud Native Insights that are poking at some of those areas that you were talking about serverless and some of the emerging areas. So Jerome, thanks so much for joining, pleasure having you on the program. >> Roger that, thank you for having me. >> All right. Be sure to check out thecube.net for all of the videos that we have as well as Siliconangle.com for the news an6d the writeups, what we do. I'm Stu Miniman and thank you for watching theCUBE. (soft music)

>> From New York City, it's theCube covering New Relic Feature Stack 2019. Brought to you by New Relic. >> Stu: Hi, I'm Stu Miniman and this is theCube's first year of coverage at the seventh year of New Relic's Futurestack 2019 here in New York City and happy to welcome back to the program two Cube alumni. So, Todd Osborne is the GVP of Alliances and Channel with New Relic and Dave McCann is the Vice President of Migration Services, Marketplace and Control Services with AWS. Gentlemen, thanks so much for joining us. >> Dave: Great seeing you again, Stu. >> Todd: Thanks for having us. >> Allright, um, Todd, let's start with you uh, you know, quite a bit of a relationship with, between New Relic and AWS. I know we've had Lou on our program at the AWS shows a couple of times. So, set us up with the, the partnership and how it's been evolving. >> Todd: Yeah, it's been a, uh an unbelievable partnership, um, for many, many years we've worked together starting with technology integrations, we've got dozens of them that, that natively monitor a bunch of different AWS services but the most exciting thing of late ah, really came to life middle of last year when we started working with, uh, a bunch of different folks at AWS. Our, basically, our biggest thing that we need help with is migrations. We know we have this massive opportunity, uh, to, for more and more applications more and more workloads to move to the cloud. There's lots of different ways in which customers, partners and Amazon needed help in doing that. They brought us several different challenges related to that and we responded by, ah, at Reinvent Launch last year, launching what we call the Cloud Adoption Solution. That really was how, um, a process that linked up with the Amazon Migration Acceleration Program and used New Relic as the platform to help with migrations from beginning to end. So, starting with the planning, uh, phase of the process, getting the information you need to have a successful migration and design a successful migration, troubleshooting that may, of anything tat may occur during the migration and then post migration, really helping to optimize the performance and cost of how that migration, uh, or that post migration, ah, optimization and run phase. So, it started with that. It's really evolved. What's been really amazing, just since we launced last November December at Reinvent, the whole, we've seen a massive shift already, just the last nine months, where it's not about just simple lift and shift anymore, almost all customers that are migrating now, are also thinking about modernizing their software stack, running on containers, using kubernetes, running micro services, which is New Relic's sweet spot, really, at the application space. So, as we've evolved, starting with migration, evolving into modernization, it's been an amazing partnership working with AWS. >> Stu: So, Dave, migration services, obviously something we hear a lot about from AWS. Every time I go on one of these shows, it's one of the key steps that gets thrown out. Uh, you have a very broad ecosystem, the marketplace, uh, you know is, is the closest I call to the kind of the enterprise app store, uh, of today. Tell us what's, you know, special and, really, you know the effort that goes together between AWS and New Relic here. >> Dave: So, I think, from a migration point of view, um, you know we've spent a lot of time in AWS designing a migration methodology. Our professional services team, let by Tom Weatherby is really delivering a playbook directly to our customers on how to migrate. And, also, we've certified over fifty consultant partners who are certified to do the migration. But all the migrations hinge on a customer knowing what they have and whether they want to migrate it. And, so, to necessarily know what you have, you have to go through application discovery. So, if you've got a larger server fleet, you've got four or five thousand instances, you have a thousand apps, you've actually got to discover and analyze what you have. And, clearly New Relic's tool is widely installed. So they actually have the visibility to a lot of the installed apps. So, last year, at the end of last year, we bought a Canadian company called TSO Logic. And TSO Logic is a business case tool from building the business case on whether to move an application running on PRIM. What would it look like on The Cloud? So, we need to have that data in the tool. And, so, New Relic's been a great partner, integrating New Relic into TSO Logic, so we cal actually take the instrument in visibility that New Relic brings to the table and pop it right into the tool. And, so, the New Relic, TSO tool integration is a great new mechanism that we have. And we just acquired TSO in Q1 of 2019. So that we're now giving the TSO tool to all of our solution architects and all of our consulting partners and New Relic feeds the data right into the TSO tool. So that's a huge, um, uh, mechanism for accelerating migration. >> Okay, uh, can, can you speak to, you know, how, are you, who and what customers and how are you targeting them, uh, for, for this solution? >> So, first of all, customer are moving to AWS. You know, thousand of enterprises are moving applications. I think you have to assume that most enterprises are moving to The Cloud. And the question is, "At what speed?" So, as our sales teams engage with the customer, the sales team have a notion to discuss migration we run migration methodology. And so, as we engage with the teams, the solution architect brings TSO to the tool, to the discussion. And that's happening all around the world. And we've trained our solution architects on TSO. And as we've done that, the second thing we've done is, you know, New Relic engineered engine marketplace over two years ago. But we've launched a new capability called Private Offers. And Private Offers is where the customer, while they're planning the migration, may also need to license more New Relic and New New Relic. And, so, how do we make licensing really easy? And, so, New Relic worked with us on, the, what we call the Private Offers Workflow. And that Private Offer Workflow allows a New Relic sales executive to generate the quote right in the marketplace portal. And you, an AWS customer, and you receive that private quotation right in your AWS account. So not only are we business casing on TSO, but New Relic is quoting through marketplace. So that's happening into lots of large customers. >> Stu: Yeah, uh, you know, what if you talk about the adoption of Cloud we need to make it simpler for customers to move those. And the financial piece has always been one of the promises of Cloud, but things like this Private Offer, it sounds like it helps accelerate, uh, that simplicity, and, and you know, reduces any, you know, perceived barriers there are between some of the software vendors and what you're offering. >> Dave: Well, it flows the New Relic software supply right through marketplace and more and more large companies are using marketplace for software supply. And, so, New Relic's in there. It means that our sales teams are working together So, we talked this morning at the conference with the VP of Cloud architecture who was in the conversation. And so, Chris has been working with the AWS team and with the New Relic team and we're joined at the hip as they expand their use of New Relic. And they announced this morning that they've now moved over thirty percent of all of the Cox application onto the AWS Cloud. And New Relic's been the center of that visibility. >> Stu: All right, so, Todd, a lot of announcements at the show, especially uh, you know, the capital p platform as Lou talked about in the keynote this morning. Well, you know, AWS is one of the largest platforms out there today. Help us understand how these fit together, both platforms as well as just, just the announcements in general as to how they work with AWS. >> Yeah, what every single thing we announced today had some sort of AWS tie to it. So, I mean first of all with New Relic, one, being a platform, it's open, connected, and, um, and, and programmable. And, so, the open part of that means that not only can we just inject data with New Relic agents, now we, we now are an observability platform that will take date from all kinds of sources, so think of what that opens up in working with AWS and AWS's other partners and getting data from a bunch of different sources, to then make the observability even better. We announce a log in solution. We're already connected with AWS, uh, cloud watch logs and, and, uh, working on some other new feature solutions in the log in space. And then from a programmability perspective, um, we can now take what we have, we can write all kinds of applications on top of the New Relic platform. And some of the initial couple of, of the dozen application that have already been opensource, one is a cost optimization play which looks at Amazon data, uh, both utilization performance data, some other sources of data that New Relic has, and then pulls in the Amazon cost data, can actually look at, in the New Relic platform, as a free opensource application, how do I optimize my cost in the AWS environment? And the second one, which we didn't talk about too much this morning but it's out there, but we can take some of VienMore data and some of the on PRIM data that we have visibility to today and help design that landing zone to help migrations do better, So, it's just two really quick examples of how we can take data from all these different sources and program it, write new applications on top of it, create an awesome customer use case and work with Amazon and, uh, help migrations and optimization along the way. >> Stu: All right, Dave, I'm wondering if you have any customer examples that might highlight some of the joint work that's being worked on between New Relic and AWS. >> Dave: Also, You Know, obviously I've just made some Cox We stood on stage this morning with the press where Cox has said that they've now got nine thousand work loads under New Relic visibility. And so that nine thousand work loads is across hundreds of development teams and, I think, Cox is just an illustration of many customers that we have in common. Um, you know, we're, AWS has got thousands of enterprises, so does New Relic. I think you've said you have over one hundred thousand five hundred enterprises using you. So, some large number. So there's a high overlap in many customers at this conference. And as we sat in the room this morning, um, I would say more than half the room held up their hands when I said, "Who in this room is using AWS?" Half of the audience here are AWS customers and New Relic customers. >> Todd: If I could maybe just add on the Cox story a little bit, because I've been very involved with that one. The beauty of the partnership we have there was multiple, on multiple phases. First, Cox has been a customer of ours for a number of years. Both on PRIM and in the cloud as they have accelerated their cloud, we've helped a lot with that. What was great about that partnership was that our field teams got together and, and actually really sat down and, and mapped out the migration, multiple migration scenarios. We had data on a bunch of on PRIM stuff that was valuable to AWS. AWS was the standard on a couple of divisions on cloud that we weren't monitoring all the applications there. So the teams really worked really well together and then at the end of the day, we came together and said, um, there's a bunch of benefits for the customer, for AWS and us, if the, if uh, if a transaction, the last transaction we did there, went though the marketplace, which was a significant transaction that we did with, ah, on the marketplace. So it was just such a win, win, win that tied together the, uh, all the aspects of the strategic nature-natureship, nature of our partnership. >> Stu: All right, so, you know, it's clear you're teams have been working close tother, iterating and adding a lot of the last kind of year, year or two or so. Give us a little bit look forward. What more should we expect of, a, from, from this partnership? >> Dave: So the area I think I would talk about next, that I think all customers are paying attention to, is spam management. So, you migrate your application to the cloud, you establish a could operating modem, um, we license out software through marketplace, you're now running it, at last week we have another product that I run called Service Catalog. And last week what we launched in Service Catalog was a new ability, and Service Catalog is a library of templates, so those templates are launched as Jason Templates using something called cloud formation and we've versioned the templates and what we launched last week was an integration between Service Catalog and another tool our customers have called AWS Budgets. So now what you actually want to do is you want to grant the team access to a resource and on the tag of the template, you actually want to give that resource template a budget. So that is actually under an API, so there's an AWS Budget API, there's a Service Catalog API, Lou's team today announced a whole raft of New Relic tools. But one of the things that they announced was the ability to essentially build these new widgets, using a React widget, and pull data from other sources. So that's the area some of the customers are looking at as far as taking your spam widget and connecting it into both AWS Budgets and Service Catalog. I don't know if you want to give us your thoughts on that. >> Todd: I, I already talked a little bit about it but it's, it's, it's where we can go. Like the future if almost, almost, uh, infinity right now. What we can go do together. We are trying to align to several of the programs Dave mentioned around Service Catalog, Migration Hub, focus on a couple different use cases of what, um, ever migration has a bunch of nuances and every optimization story has a bunch of nuances. But how can we create the right application, which are a starting point, opensource, put, put the repository up on get up and then allow customers and partners to go and fork that, do what they want to match, kind of of standard use case and maybe eighty percent of the way there. But then it needs a little but of tweak, a little bit of customization basesd on whatever that customer's situation is. We've enabled the entire, uh, community of millions apps that are going to migrate to the AWS cloud over the next couple of years. We've enabled that with what we've launched today. So, the, uh, the future is, is infinity and beyond. >> Stu: All right, well, Todd and Dave, thank you so much for the update. We look forward to seeing what gets announced at AWS Reinvent, which, of course, it'll be our seventh year of having theCube there. Big presence, uh, please reach out if you want to talk to us ahead of time. And check out theCube.net, of course, where you can see, uh, where we will be, including, of course, AWS Reinvent, uh, in December, uh, in Las Vegas. So, This is theCube at Future Stack 2019. I'm Stu Miniman. Thanks for watching theCube.

>> Live from Las Vegas. It's the Cube covering Adobe Summit twenty nineteen brought to you by X Ensure Interactive. >> Welcome back to the Cubes. Live coverage here in Las Vegas for Adobe Summit. Twenty nineteen. I'm John Murray with Jeffrey Kerr. Next guest. Touch Wars. Who's a global delivery lead for Adobe with sent a censure interactive. That was a tongue twister. You for you, for the adobe relationship with a censure interactive. That's correct. Thank you. Global delivery lead. Thank you. That's right. Look into the Cube. Thankyou. So global. Big big landscape, cloud computing, Global impact delivery. That's hard corn nuts and bolts on the front lines. Tell us by what you do, what some of the issues around delivery, because that's where the rubber hits the road on all this. >> Well, that's exactly right. You know, when I think of my roll, think of me if someone who's out there working shoulder to shoulder with customers when it, you know from a delivery aspect, you know, providing the capability, providing the skills, providing the talent, making sure that we're getting the results that our clients are looking for and ultimately the quality that that we need to deliver for them. >> You guys do a lot of work. I mean, censure Interactive got a great team that sets up all the upgrade ideas, all the new business models. New tech is here. People process, culture change all going on. The end of the day comes into your I've gotta deliver it. And then the outcome is that the one has to accept that this is a core issue of people, talk about operational izing new things and sometimes has changed. Management involved his new culture shifts. So this is where we hear a lot. It's not. The tech problem is the people and the culture. Can you share your view on this because you're on the front lines on this one issue? >> It's a great point. And I think you know, one thing is standing up technology, and you can sort of get some of the nuts and bolts running. It's another thing to really get our clients and our customers enabled so they can unleash the power of some of these platforms. The technologies you know, there's a entire journey map on what their own people we need to go through from in a moment. There is a change management aspect around how we get those folks sort of feeling comfortable about that, and we often go through a couple different methods to do that. Sometimes we do it too, in the box where we'll sort of act with them and the same role other ways we'll sort of lead by example and do it and then they'll sort of shadow us and then eventually we just sort of make that transition. In some cases, they just frankly, you know, outsource it to us, right? And well take over that sort of feature and functionality a role in position on behalf of our customer. And that's okay. >> kind of horsepower. Do you bring to the table? And we just interviewed Nicky, who handles the essential interactive operations that seem like a great power source standing up fast, some operational capabilities. What else do you guys do bring to the table in terms of the delivery piece? >> Well, >> what Nikki and her team do is vital for us. So when you think about when I'm out there doing, I'm out there standing up these capabilities, empowering our customers, and then Nikki's with her team and everything we're doing an X century active operations is sort of operating that for that client, right? So once we sort of turn on some of those features and functions that Nicki's out there with her team, sort of running with it. And in that multiyear run in, getting those >> custom will hand the keys to her. Do so you, that's the hand off. Is that okay? >> Exactly. Right. So once we once we sort of power everything on with our client's power, all that integration on and then we leverage Nikki and her team in many ways to sort of take over that run. Tom, if you talk about the skills, that kind of the skills gap, if you will on some of the clients that you have and how are the skills and the rules evolving to execute with some of these new tooling in this kind of new process? It wasn't like build a campaign and slow roll it out. Now it's Go, go, go, go, go! Oh, you're absolutely right on that and I think I know that. But it's evolving, right? I mean, we data scientists are more important than they ever were. And so all of our customers and ourselves are investing on how we get data science because at the heart of it and If you think about what he's talking about in some of the new products that are coming out, it's about building that data layer right. And it's about taking that data later to the next level, too, around security and tradition. So helping our customers started get their arms around what it means to manage that data and all those aspects around the view of a customer is critical. Even the even the presentation tear you know it'LL be provides all those amazing technologies that allow customers to drive those rich experiences, whether it's on a tablet, whether it's on a mobile, whether it's on your desktop, ubiquitous doesn't matter. But that presentation tears is constantly changing. I mean, we didn't have, you know, the anger and the React ten years ago. Now you have all these other frameworks you have to begin to prepare for. >> About the one of his Aquino yesterday we've got my attention was the word and look, I love the way it sounds personalization at scale. And that's just just think about that concert for second. It's mind blowing. We love we love personalization doesn't like personalization. Yeah, but at scale a lot of moving parts. This is in your guy's wheelhouse. Century irregulars have large scale customers globally. What does that mean to you? Because I had us had happened best by so much. Send out forty million emails means insane the personalization experience. What does it mean? >> Well, what? >> When I hear something needs to be a scale, you gotta break it down to be a simple as possible. You got to figure out how you make that something super complex and dumb it down to where you truly can't scale it where you can enable people quickly. Um and sometimes you think big and start small so often What we'LL do is we'LL have our customers say, if you want to do one toe, one personalization we need to be thinking about how we can create content quickly, how we can create art quickly, how we can go and and operationalized that globally. Right, Because many times you need be working around the clock. So for me, when I think of that scale, it's how do we turn those capabilities on around the globe quickly for our clients and basically, you need to break it down. >> It's a place you go, though customs saying, Let's let's pick some use cases. That's a beachhead. Get that figured out. Make sure it's not a lot of moving parts. >> Yeah, and against >> software, because experience engine things of that nature >> and sort of start small, you know? So I you know, I would light up some teams take some initial use cases, maybe think about how you know, what are some of those you know, initial user journeys that end in journey. We wantto prove out. And then let's operationalize those. And then we'LL build on top of that overtime. >> Be asked by the Adobe announcements. What's getting you excited here? The event with some of the hallway conversations and conversations after hours, a lot different events going on. What are you talking about? What's the top conversation that you're involved in >> for sure AP when you talk about the new experience platform that's coming out and everything around there to me, I think that's a game changer in the marketplace, and I think it's also critical. Certainly OD eyes all wrapped in there and all the data theater aspects. But the new experience platform that Adobe is investing, it is sort of where I think our customers are driving towards and what's required in order to meet the demands of how to secure this data. How to wrap some permissions around it, how to take. You know what we would consider a P I and pH. I like data on be able to use it and more of their tools knowing that we have the security of the integrity of >> our CM taxi. Your job with customer experience. Platform >> right. Impact. Our job is it unleashes all kinds of potential. Uh, you know, when we do you think about what were out there helping our customers solution, it opens the gamut for us to go and sort of drive those next generation experiences in a much more you know, I guess, uh, formidable way, you know, I can >> more capabilities. Oh, absolutely. You know, >> execution. Exactly. What was super complex for me to build now just became a lot easier. Because now I have a frame, Eric and a structure and a platform that they're enabling it >> has impact the interview. The customer. I mean, so the partner landscape because you guys have a lot of partnerships, just always a key. One house. You hear Adobe Summit. But, you know, you might have some of these little Miss Provider's come in with a nice tool chain. Say, Hey, you know what? I want to plug this in the biggest center interactive engine. You guys got a lot of global breath. You're gonna probably get some impact on the ecosystem. How do you see partners? Because if it's an enabling platform and should be in the building something so that's going to tell Sign what? What's your view on the partner ecosystem? >> What's the first thing I'LL say about that is I think we're in a unique position because if you look at the scale we have at Accenture, so although I'm in extension interactive, I'm very focused on that digital and building the best experience on Planet I have this huge engine behind me of Broderick Center that has these capabilities. I mean, you know what we're dreaming up around, how we're working with Microsoft and happy Well, guess what? We already do that, too, so I can bring a lot of those vendor relationships and experiences capabilities and bring him right in house quickly. And when I need to go out to market and partner. I have those avenues, and I can go bring that niche that >> Lego blocks together now. Yeah, big things, auto integrate. Just put it together and >> adobes continue to invest in their io. And that allows us to integrate and plug in these things a lot quicker than we ever have before. >> What's the biggest challenge? You see it that adobe and the markers and and market is having the marketplace because a lot of new tech, a lot of great capabilities. Now emergency. There's a shift happening. Yeah, you know what kind of been going slow? You know, yard by yard, moved the chains like a football analogy. But now big movements gonna have we see happening Way. Siya shift coming. Big wave of innovation. What's the challenge? >> That definitely two challenges. I think one, uh, it's just the speed, right. The speed in which the market is moving. And how do you keep up with that speed? And how do you continue to invest in your own people? T learn it. And then, too, I think this year amount of data like the fact that we can store all this data. We have more data coming in than we've ever had before. I mean, just think of what I owe tea is doing to our our landscape and all the data that's coming in from a night and now we can use that as a as a whole, another level of, ah, sophistication and our analytics and our segmentation. And that's a tough job, right? That's how marketers keep up with that. It's, uh, it's changing their landscape, for sure. But what about just kind of the point of view when they get competition that comes out of complete left field, right, that you know, uber and lift or the obviously examples to get way overused. But you know, the company's heir now beating against companies that weren't even in their radar before that were purpose built on moving at light speed to your point. How do you help those legacy? Those legacy guys kind of take the big league, take the big step, get to hyperspeed personalization? I mean one thing. You can't be complacent, I think if you are complacent, your you know, one of those small, innovative companies is going to slowly eat your lunch on. So I think, you know, take advantage of that mindset that those small, you know, incubation type companies or this moth and maybe even think about How do I How do I build that same type of innovation within my own halls? And how do I take a manager? How that rapid development of that rapid change and oftentimes we're helping our customers go in and bootstrap that right started like, Let's go inside. And let's build a little innovation hub inside your own organization to go and compete with them. Otherwise, you know you're going to see what you know, like the case studies you just >> referenced right, because they're in the driver's seat, for sure. I mean, I think this is great innovation. Question. That week that came up in our last segment with Jim Leyland was you know, he talked about the vendor dynamics. Yes, When you have the world floating upside down, things have changed. Sweet vendors lead and enable. Now you have abs dictating terms, the infrastructure. That's a cloud model. He made a good point, he said. You know, a lot of the transformational stuff is great, but then it fails during integration and pointing out that they get to a certain point. It just crashes, not crashes. That's my word. But he said thiss challenges. It wasn't specific on outcomes of of transmission, we said pretty much its struggles and usually doesn't happen. Yeah, how do you see that? Because with now, automation machine learning Now you have agility in a marketing landscape, not just marketing cloud. You got all kinds of other things. It's like this sales and marketing. And there is everything you have agility. How does the integration impacts and has the delivery impact that transformation >> Goal? What ends? You're exactly right in the fact that when organizations make a big investment and Toby Technologies, they typically have a lot of other investor. It's another technologies as well. And so how do you create agility where you gotta plug and play sometimes more than one, and I'm sure Jim talk to you about our customer experience, engine and the beauty of that right where we can go and really bring a framework to our customers and our clients. That allows us to take the best of all these of all these experiences all these platforms, I should say, to build the best in class experience, and that's something we absolutely bring to the table. It's a framework. We've proved it out. And frankly, we have a whole bunch of connectors that already exist. So from my mind, when I'm trying to get them to be agility, I bring that type of thing to the table to help them move fast. >> I think that's a successful tell sign we see with successful, then vendors and partners and integrators is that you guys took your core competency and rose software and he packaged it up to automate the heavy lifting that I mean, why wouldn't >> you do the >> way you >> are accustomed there, >> buddy? I mean, I walk in our customers and I'm like, Well, they have a little this. They have a little that, then they're goingto go on, make this massive invest in Adobe, and it's like they're not going to just discard to retire some of those things. So way attempt to solve that problem. >> That's a real differentiate. Congratulations. Jim was great on that final question for you. Look going forward. What do you excited about? What's on your road map? What's what's next for you is the next leg of the journey for global delivery. Well, more delivery, you >> know. Honestly, it's it's to continue to build off scale around all of our locations. So when you look at its Centre Interactive were, you know, obviously a big North American business. But we have businesses all over the globe, and it's to continue to create, you know, to meet our customer's demands as they expand global. That's how do we deliver local and how do we deliver around the clock for them? And so for me, it's about build those capabilities everywhere you go South America, Australia, New Zealand in Eastern Europe, and, uh, and making sure that we create the same delivery patterns and we leverage the same assets and accelerators like the customer experience engine in all those places. >> And one final question. As you look at the arena of the all the vendors competing, what's the what's the winning formula? What's the posture that you see that's a successful vendor as they integrate it in this kind of these journeys in these experiences, what successful makeup of a successful supplier to customers >> from this from a from a technology >> that you look at all the players got Microsoft big part of the job you got Amazon, you got all these. You know, Marsh, Martek Stack is littered with logo's consolidations happening. There's a lot of battles battles on the field right now. Players of fighting for their future. >> Well, honestly, I think those who are going to make it as simple and as easy to empower their people to use is gonna be the winner. And I think you're you're seeing that certainly at at Adobe. But there's a lot of other formidable vendors out there who are creating very simple techniques to go on like this up. The more you could empower a business person and a marketer to do self service, the bigger win you're gonna have >> and to your point about scale. Simplicity. Yeah, thanks for coming on. Great insight. Thank you so much to share in the commentary. Appreciate Todd Schwarz here on the Cube Global delivery lead for the Adobe account for a censure Interactive Stevens. One more day to coverage after this short break. I'm John free with Jeffrey will be right back

>> Hi, I'm Peter Burris and welcome to another Wikibon Action Item. (electronic music) Once again, we're broadcasting from theCUBE studios in beautiful Palo Alto. Here in the studio with me are George Gilbert and David Floyer. And remote, we have Neil Raden and Jim Kobielus. Welcome everybody. >> David: Thank you. >> So this is kind of an interesting topic that we're going to talk about this week. And it really is how are we going to find new ways to generate derivative use out of many of the applications, especially web-based applications that are have been built over the last 20 years. A basic premise of digital business is that the difference between business and digital business is the data and how you craft data as an asset. Well, as we all know in any universal Turing machine, data is the basis for representing both the things that you're acting upon but also the algorithms, the software itself. Software is data and the basic principles of how we capture software oriented data assets or software assets and then turn them into derivative sources of value and then reapply them to new types of problems is going to become an increasingly important issue as we think about the world of digital business is going to play over the course of the next few years. Now, there are a lot of different domains where this might work but one in particular that's especially as important is in the web application world where we've had a lot of application developers and a lot of tools be a little bit more focused on how we use web based services to manipulate things and get software to do the things we want to do and also it's a source of a lot of the data that's been streaming into big data applications. And so it's a natural place to think about how we're going to be able to create derivative use or derivative value out of crucial software assets. How are we going to capture those assets, turn them into something that has a different role for the business, performs different types of work, and then reapply them. So to start the conversation, Jim Kobielus. Why don't you take us through what some of these tools start to look like. >> Hello, Peter. Yes, so really what we're looking at here, in order to capture these assets, the web applications, we first have to generate those applications and the bulk of that worker course is and remains manual. And in fact, there is a proliferation of web application development frameworks on the market and the range of them continues to grow. Everything from React to Angular to Ember and Node.js and so forth. So one of the core issues that we're seeing out there in the development world is... are there too many of these. Is there any prospect for simplification and consolidation and convergence on web application development framework to make the front-end choices for developers a bit easier and straightforward in terms of the front-end development of JavaScript and HTML as well as the back-end development of the logic to handle the interactions; not only with the front-end on the UI side but also with the infrastructure web services and so forth. Once you've developed the applications, you, a professional programmer, then and only then can we consider the derivative uses you're describing such as incorporation or orchestration of web apps through robotic process automation and so forth. So the issue is how can we simplify or is there a trend toward simplification or will there soon be a trend towards simplification of a front-end manual development. And right now, I'm not seeing a whole lot of action in this direction of a simplification on the front-end development. It's just a fact. >> So we're not seeing a lot of simplification and convergence on the actual frameworks for creating software or creating these types of applications. But we're starting to see some interesting trends for stuff that's already been created. How can we generate derivative use out of it? And also per some of our augmented programming research, new ways of envisioning the role that artificial intelligence machine learning, etc, can play in identifying patterns of utilization so that we are better able to target those types of things that could be used for derivative or could be applied to derivative use. Have I got that right, Jim? >> Yeah, exactly. AI within robotic process automation, anything that could has already been built can be captured through natural language processing, through a computer image recognition, OCR, and so forth. And then trans, in that way, it's an asset that can be repurposed in countless ways and that's the beauty RPA or where it's going. So the issue is then not so much capture of existing assets but how can we speed up and really automate the original development of all that UI logic? I think RPA is part of the solution but not the entire solution, meaning RPA provides visual front-end tools for the rest of us to orchestrate more of the front-end development of the application UI and interaction logic. >> And it's also popping up-- >> That's part of broader low-code-- >> Yeah, it's also popping up at a lot of the interviews that we're doing with CIOs about related types of things but I want to scope this appropriately. So we're not talking about how we're going to take those transaction processing applications, David Floyer, and envelope them and containerize them and segment them and apply a new software. That's not what we're talking about, nor are we talking about the machine to machine world. Robot process automation really is a tool for creating robots out of human time interfaces that can scale the amount of work and recombine it in different ways. But we're not really talking about the two extremes. The hardcore IoT or the hardcore systems of record. Right? >> Absolutely. But one question I have for Jim and yourself is the philosophy for most people developing these days is mobile first. The days of having an HTML layout on a screen have gone. If you aren't mobile first, that's going to be pretty well a disaster for any particular development. So Jim, how does RPA and how does your discussion fit in with mobile and all of the complexity that mobile brings? All of the alternative ways that you can do things with mobile. >> Yeah. Well David, of course, low-code tools, there are many. There are dozens out there. There are many of those that are geared towards primarily supporting of fast automated development of mobile applications to run on a variety of devices and you know, mobile UIs. That's part of the solution as it were but also in the standard web application development world. know there's these frameworks that I've described. Everything from React to Angular to Vue to Ember, everything else, are moving towards a concept, more than concept, it's a framework or paradigm called progressive web apps. And what progressive web apps are all about, that's really the mainstream of web application development now is blurring the distinction between mobile and web and desktop applications because you build applications, JavaScript applications for browsers. The apps look and behave as if they were real-time interactive in memory mobile apps. What that means is that they download fresh content throughout a browsing session progressively. I'm putting to determine air quotes because that's where the progressive web app comes in. And they don't require the end-user to visit an app store or download software. They don't require anything in terms of any special capabilities in terms of synchronizing data from servers to run in memory natively inside of web accessible containers that are local to the browser. They just feel mobile even though they, excuse me, they may be running on a standard desktop with narrowband connectivity and so forth. So they scream and they scream in the context of their standard JavaScript Ajax browser obsession. >> So when we think about this it got, jeez Jim it almost sounds like like client-side Java but I think you're we're talking about something, as you said, that that evolves as the customer uses it and there's a lot of techniques and approaches that we've been using to do some of those things. But George Gilbert, the reason I bring up the notion of client-side Java is because we've seen other initiatives over the years try to do this. Now, partly they failed because, David Floyer, they focused on too much and tried to standardize or presume that everything required a common approach and we know that that's always going to fail. But what are some of the other things that we need to think about as we think about ways of creating derivative use out of software or in digital assets. >> Okay, so. I come at it from two angles. And as Jim pointed out, there's been a Cambrian explosion of creativity and innovation on frankly on client-side development and server-side development. But if you look at how we're going to recombine our application assets, we tried 20 years ago with EAI but that was, and it's sort of like MuleSoft but only was for on-prem apps. And it didn't work because every app was bespoke essentially-- >> Well, it worked for point-to-point classes of applications. >> Yeah, but it required bespoke development for every-- >> Peter: Correct. >> Every instance because the apps were so customized. >> Peter: And the interfaces were so customized. >> Yes. At the same time we were trying to build higher-level application development capabilities on desktop productivity tools with macros and then scripting languages, cross application, and visual development or using applications as visual development building blocks. Now, you put those two things together and you have the ability to work with user interfaces by building on, I'm sorry, to work with applications that have user interfaces and you have the functionality that's in the richer enterprise applications and now we have the technology to say let's program by example on essentially a concrete use case and a concrete workflow. And then you go back in and you progressively generalize it so it can handle more exception conditions and edge conditions. In other words, you start with... it's like you start with the concrete and you get progressively more abstract. >> Peter: You start with the work that the application performs. >> Yeah. >> And not knowledge of the application itself. >> Yes. But the key thing is, as you said, recombining assets because we're sort of marrying the best of EAI world with the best of the visual client-side development world. Where, as Jim points out, machine learning is making it easier for the tools to stay up to date as the user interfaces change across releases. This means that, I wouldn't say this as easy as spreadsheet development, it's just not. >> It's not like building spreadsheet macros but it's more along those lines. >> Yeah, but it's not as low-level as just building raw JavaScript because, and Jim's great example of JavaScript client-side frameworks. Look at our Gmail inbox application that millions of people use. That just downloads a new version whenever they want to drop it and they're just shipping JavaScript over to us. But the the key thing and this is, Peter, your point about digital business. By combining user interfaces, we can bridge applications that were silos then we can automate the work the humans were doing to bridge those silos and then we can reconstitute workflows in much more efficient-- >> Around the digital assets, which is kind of how business ultimately evolves. And that's a crucial element of this whole thing. So let's change direction a little bit because we're talking about, as Jim said, we've been talking about the fact that there are all these frameworks out there. There may be some consolidation on the horizon, we're researching that right now. Although there's not a lot of evidence that it's happening but there clearly is an enormous number of digital assets that are in place inside these web-based applications, whether it be relative to mobile or something else. And we want to find derivative use of or we want to create derivative use out of them and there's some new tools that allow us to do that in a relatively simple straightforward way, like RPA and there are certainly others. But that's not where this ends up. We know that this is increasingly going to be a target for AI, what we've been calling augmented programming and the ability to use machine learning and related types of technologies to be able to reveal, make transparent, gain visibility into, patterns within applications and within the use of data and then have that become a crucial feature of the development process. And increasingly even potentially to start actually creating code automatically based on very clear guidance about what work needs to be performed. Jim, what's happening in that world right now? >> Oh, let's see. So basically, I think what's going to happen over time is that more of the development cycle for web applications will incorporate not just the derivative assets, the AI to be able to decompose existing UI elements and recombine them. Enable flexible and automated recombination in various ways but also will enable greater tuning of the UI in an automated fashion through A/B testing that's in line to the development cycle based on metrics that AI is able to sift through in terms of... different UI designs can be put out into production applications in real time and then really tested with different categories of users and then the best suited or best fit a design based on like reducing user abandonment rates and speeding up access to commonly required capabilities and so forth. The metrics can be rolled in line to the automation process to automatically select the best fit UI design that had been developed through automated means. In other words, this real-world experimentation of the UI has been going on for quite some time in many enterprises and it's often, increasingly it involves data scientists who are managing the predictive models to sort of very much drive the whole promotion process of promoting the best fit design to production status. I think this will accelerate. We'll take more of these in line metrics on UI and then we brought, I believe, into more RPA style environments so the rest of us building out these front ends are automating more of our transactions and many more of the UIs can't take advantage of the fact that we'll let the infrastructure choose the best fit of the designs for us without us having to worry about doing A/B testing and all that stuff. The cloud will handle it. >> So it's a big vision. This notion of it, even eventually through more concrete standard, well understood processes to apply some of these AIML technologies to being able to choose options for the developer and even automate some elements of those options based on policy and rules. Neil Raden, again, we've been looking at similar types of things for years. How's that worked in the past and let's talk a bit about what needs to happen now to make sure that if it's going to work, it's going to work this time. >> Well, it really hasn't worked very well. And the reason it hasn't worked very well is because no one has figured out a representational framework to really capture all the important information about these objects. It's just too hard to find them. Everybody knows that when you develop software, 80% of it is grunt work. It's just junk. You know, it's taking out the trash and it's setting things up and whatever. And the real creative stuff is a very small part of it. So if you could alleviate the developer from having to do all that junk by just picking up pieces of code that have already been written and tested, that would be big. But the idea of this has been overwhelmed by the scale and the complexity. And people have tried to create libraries like JavaBeans and object-oriented programming and that sort of thing. They've tried to create catalogs of these things. They've used relational databases, doesn't work. My feeling and I hate to use the word because it always puts people to sleep is some kind of ontology that's deep enough and rich enough to really do this. >> Oh, hold on Neil, I'm feeling... (laughs) >> Yeah. Well, I mean, what good is it, I mean go to Git, right. You can find a thousand things but you don't know which one is really going to work for you because it's not rich enough, it doesn't have enough information. It needs to have quality metrics. It needs to have reviews by people who have used converging and whatever. So that's that's where I think we run into trouble. >> Yeah, I know. >> As far as robots, yeah? >> Go ahead. >> As far as robots writing code, you're going to have the same problem. >> No, well here's where I think it's different this time and I want to throw it out to you guys and see if it's accurate and we'll get to the action items. Here's where I think it's different. In the past, partly perhaps because it's where developers were most fascinated, we try to create object-oriented database and object oriented representations of data and object oriented, using object oriented models as a way of thinking about it. And object oriented code and object oriented this and and a lot of it was relatively low in the stack. And we try to create everything from scratch and it turned out that whenever we did that, it was almost like CASE from many years ago. You create it in the tool and then you maintain it out of the tool and you lose all organization of how it worked. What we're talking about here, and the reason why I think this is different, I think Neil is absolutely right. It's because we're focusing our attention on the assets within an application that create the actual business value. What does the application do and try to encapsulate those and render those as things that are reusable without necessarily doing an enormous amount of work on the back-end. Now, we have to be worried about the back-end. It's not going to do any good to do a whole bunch of RPA or related types of stuff on the front-end that kicks off an enormous number of transactions that goes after a little server that's 15 years old. That's historically only handled a few transactions a minute. So we have to be very careful about how we do this. But nonetheless, by focusing more attention on what is generating value in the business, namely the actions that the application delivers as opposed to knowledge of the application itself, namely how it does it then I think that we're constraining the problem pretty dramatically subject to the realities of what it means to actually be able to maintain and scale applications that may be asked to do more work. What do you guys think about that? >> Now Peter, let me say one more thing about this, about robots. I think you're all a lot more sanguine about AI and robots doing these kinds of things. I'm not. Let me read to you have three pickup lines that a deep neural network developed after being trained to do pickup lines. You must be a tringle? 'Cause you're the only thing here. Hey baby, you're to be a key? Because I can bear your toot? Now, what kind of code would-- >> Well look, the problems look, we go back 50 years and ELIZA and the whole notion of whatever it was. The interactive psychology. Look, let's be honest about this. Neil, you're making a great point. I don't know that any of us are more or less sanguine and that probably is a good topic for a future action item. What are the practical limits of AI and how that's going to change over time. But let's be relatively simple here. The good news about applying AI inside IT problems is that you're starting with engineered systems, with engineered data forms, and engineered data types, and you're working with engineers, and a lot of that stuff is relatively well structured. Certainly more structured than the outside world and it starts with digital assets. That's why a AI for IT operations management is more likely. That's why AI for application programming is more likely to work as opposed to AI to do pickup lines, which is as you said semantically it's all over the place. There's very, very few people that are going to conform to a set of conventions for... Well, I want to move away from the concept of pickup lines and set conventions for other social interactions that are very, very complex. We don't look at a face and get excited or not in a way that corresponds to an obvious well-understood semantic problem. >> Exactly, the value that these applications deliver is in their engagement with the real world of experience and that's not the, you can't encode the real world of human lived experience in a crisp clear way. It simply has to be proven out in the applications or engagement through people or not through people, with the real world outcome and then some outcomes like the ones that Neil read off there, in terms of those ridiculous pickup lines. Most of those kinds of automated solutions won't make a freaking bit of sense because you need humans with their brains. >> Yeah, you need human engagement. So coming back to this key point, the constraint that we're putting on this right now and the reason why certainly, perhaps I'm a little bit more ebullient than you might be Neil. But I want to be careful about this because I also have some pretty strong feelings about where what the limits of AI are, regardless of what Elon Musk says. That at the end of the day, we're talking about digital objects, not real objects, that are engineered, not, haven't evolved over a few billion years, to deliver certain outputs and data that's been tested and relatively well verified. As opposed to have an unlimited, at least from human experience standpoint, potential set of outcomes. So in that small world and certainly the infrastructure universe is part of that and what we're saying is increasingly the application development universe is going to be part of that as part of the digital business transformation. I think it's fair to say that we're going to start seeing AI machine learning and some of these other things being applied to that realm with some degree of success. But, something to watch for. All right, so let's do action item. David Floyer, why don't we start with you. Action item. >> In addressing this, I think that the keys in terms of business focus is first of all mobiles, you have to design things for mobile. So any use of any particular platform or particular set of tools has to lead to mobile being first. And the mobiles are changing rapidly with the amount of data that's being generated on the mobile itself, around the mobile. So that's the first point I would make from a business perspective. And the second is that from a business perspective, one of the key things is that you can reduce cost. Automation must be a key element of this and therefore designing things that will take out tasks and remove tasks, make things more efficient, is going to be an incredibly important part of this. >> And reduce errors. >> And reduce errors, absolutely. Probably most important is reduce errors. Is to take those out of the of the chain and where you can speed things up by removing human intervention and human tasks and raising what humans are doing to a higher level. >> Other things. George Gilbert, action item. >> Okay, so. Really quickly on David's point that we have many more application forms and expressions that we have to present like mobile first. And going back to using RPA as an example. The UiPath product that we've been working with, the core of its capability is to be able to identify specific UI elements in a very complex presentation, whether it's on a web browser or whether it's on a native app on your desktop or whether it's mobile. I don't know how complete they are on mobile because I'm not sure if they did that first but that core capability to identify in a complex, essentially collection and hierarchy of UI elements, that's what makes it powerful. Now on the AI part, I don't think it's as easy as pointing it at one app and then another and say go make them talk. It's more like helping you on the parts where they might be a little ambiguous, like if pieces move around from release to release, things like that. So my action item is say start prototyping with the RPA tools because that's probably, they're probably robust enough to start integrating your enterprise apps. And the only big new wrinkle that's come out in the last several weeks that is now in everyone's consciousness is the MuleSoft acquisition by Salesforce because that's going back to the EAI model. And we will see more app to app integration at the cloud level that's now possible. >> Neil Raden, action item. >> Well, you know, Mark Twain said, there's only two kinds of people in the world. The kind who think there are only two kinds of people in the world and the ones who know better. I'm going to deviate from that a little and say that there's really two kinds of software developers in the world. They're the true computer scientists who want to write great code. It's elegant, it's maintainable, it adheres to all the rules, it's creative. And then there's an army of people who are just trying to get something done. So the boss comes to you and says we've got to get a new website up apologizing for selling the data of 50 million of our customers and you need to do it in three days. Now, those are the kind of people who need access to things that can be reused. And I think there's a huge market for that, as well as all these other software development robots so to speak. >> Jim Kobielus, action item. >> Yeah, for simplifying web application development, I think that developers need to distinguish between back-end and front-end framework. There's a lot of convergence around the back-end framework. Specifically Node.js. So you can basically decouple the decision in terms of front-end frameworks from that and you need to write upfront. Make sure that you have a back-end that supports many front ends because there are many front ends in the world. Secondly, the front ends themselves seem to be moving towards React and Angular and Vue as being the predominant ones. You'll find more programmers who are familiar with those. And then thirdly, as you move towards consolidation on to fewer frameworks on the front-end, move towards low-code tools that allow you just with the push of a button, you know visual development, being able to deploy the built out UI to a full range of mobile devices and web applications. And to close my action item... I'll second what David said. Move toward a mobile first development approach for web applications with a focus on progressive web applications that can run on mobiles and others. Where they give a mobile experience. With intermittent connectivity, with push notifications, with a real-time in memory fast experience. Move towards a mobile first development paradigm for all of your your browser facing applications and that really is the simplification strategy you can and should pursue right now on the development side because web apps are so important, you need a strategy. >> Yeah, so mobile irrespective of the... irrespective of the underlying biology or what have you of the user. All right, so here's our action item. Our view on digital business is that a digital business uses data differently than a normal business. And a digital business transformation ultimately is about how do we increase our visibility into our data assets and find new ways of creating new types of value so that we can better compete in markets. Now, that includes data but it also includes application elements, which also are data. And we think increasingly enterprises must take a more planful and purposeful approach to identifying new ways of deriving additional streams of value out of application assets, especially web application assets. Now, this is a dream that's been put forward for a number of years and sometimes it's work better than others. But in today's world we see a number of technologies emerging that are likely, at least in this more constrained world, to present a significant new set of avenues for creating new types of digital value. Specifically tools like RPA, remote process automation, that are looking at the outcomes of an application and allow programmers use a by example approach to start identifying what are the UI elements, what those UI elements do, how they could be combined, so that they can be composed into new things and thereby provide a new application approach, a new application integration approach which is not at the data and not at the code but more at the work that a human being would naturally do. These allow for greater scale and greater automation and a number of other benefits. The reality though is that you also have to be very cognizant as you do this, even though you can find these, find these assets, find a new derivative form and apply them very quickly to new potential business opportunities that you have to know what's happening at the back-end as well. Whether it's how you go about creating the assets, with some of the front-end tooling, and being very cognizant of which front ends are going to be better or not better or better able at creating these more reusable assets. Or whether you're talking about still how relatively mundane things like how a database serialized has access to data and will fall over because you've created an automated front-end that's just throwing a lot of transactions at it. The reality is there's always going to be complexity. We're not going to see all the problems being solved but some of the new tools allow us to focus more attention on where the real business value is created by apps, find ways to reuse that, and apply it, and bring it into a digital business transformation approach. All right. Once again. George Gilbert, David Floyer, here in the studio. Neil Raden, Jim Kobielus, remote. You've been watching Wikibon Action Item. Until next time, thanks for joining us. (electronic music)

(upbeat instrumental music) >> Narrator: Live from Las Vegas, it's the Cube. Covering AWS re:Invent 2017, presented by AWS, Intel, and our ecosystem of partners. >> Hey, welcome back everyone. This is the Cube, live here in Las Vegas for AWS re:Invent 2017. I'm John Furrier, the cohost of the cube. My cohost, Keith Townsend, here for our fifth year in a row, covering the thunderous growth of Amazon Web Services as they continue to not only nail the developers and the start ups, but continue to win the enterprise. Our next guest, Lew Cirne, who's the founder and CEO of publicly held New Relic, a very successful startup, one of the most admired places to work in the Bay area, and in tech. Lew, great to have you on the Cube, welcome. >> Hi. >> John: Hi, first time. >> I know, so great to be here. I can't believe it's the firs time. I've been such a fan for a long time. >> Now you're an alumni, the benefits. >> Here I am. >> All the benefits of being an alumni, all those season tickets to all of our games. I gotta, I want to just share something with the audience out there. You're the only public CEO that I know that's been on the Cube that writes software, has a GitHub account, and manages a publicly held company. So that's a unique thing and I want to just say it's awesome. >> It's a full plate, that's for sure, but I'm the luckiest guy in the world because I've always loved building software since my first computer I got in the Christmas of 82, what's that, 35 years ago now, and, and so, what an exciting time to be someone who's passionate about software and technology. Look what's going on in the cloud, and so I've been fortunate enough to start this company that's participating in this revolution in technology, so it's great. >> You guys are always in the cutting edge. I noticed, you guys get your hands dirty, you get in there, you're coding away, but you guys are very successful in a very important area right now, which is instrumentation of data. >> Lew: Absolutely. >> In applications, so I really want to get your, kind of your thoughts on the landscape. We were talking about on our intro analysis, that we're seeing a renaissance in software development, where with open source growing exponentially, a new software methodology's coming out, where there's just so much going on. Multiple databases within one app, IOT, so a new kind of thinking is evolving. What's your take on that? >> Well I think it's really important to understand why all of this is happening. So why are there 40,000 people here in Las Vegas for re:Invent? Why are people consuming the cloud at just a dizzying pace? It's not just for the sake of cloud computing, it's because there's this business imperative to compete on software, so if you look at where software was 15, 20 years ago, software was a tool to reduce costs and automate things in the back end. Now your software's your business. If you are a large global bank, your app has more to do with your customers' experience and satisfaction than the branch because nobody walks through a branch anymore, so now the best software developing bank is going to be the winner, so if you think about that's what's going on and that's why they're adopting new technologies to move faster, so where do we fit in? If you're going to compete on your software, and by competing you have to build the best stuff, the fastest as possible, so you have to get to market quickly, and that means you've got to change a lot. Anytime you're changing something rapidly, that introduces risk. New Relic de-risks all of that rapid movement by instrumentation, by measuring everything in the software. Those measurements help you move faster with confidence. >> And also I would say that you, not only does that create risks, but new software creates risks, so I'm doing server-less, I want to try the new service because it could A, add value, AKA Lamda or whatever, so a new, maybe time out is needed, so all kinds of new things or elements are going on inside the software stacks. >> Yes, and more complex than ever before, right, so you introduce things like Lambda server-less function computing, call it what you will, and you integrate it with, you know, microservice architecture, and so instead of one monolith, you might have hundreds, or even some of our customers have thousands of independent services, all supposed to be working in flawless concert in order to deliver a great customer experience. How on earth do you make sense of whether that's all working? Well it involves collecting an enormous amount of data about everything that's going on in real time, and then applying intelligence to that data using what we call at New Relic applied intelligence to tell our customers in real time, here's what's working well, and more importantly, here's what's going to be a problem if you don't take immediate action. And that's, you know, that's a hard problem to solve. We think we're the best at doing it. >> And that's critical too, because like you said, if it crashes, or there's some sort of breach hold that comes out there, all the stuff is at risk. >> And like, customers have just incredibly high expectations that only get higher and higher every day. Like, you know, one of our customers is Domino's and it's an amazing thing where you pre-order your pizza and you can see, second by second, how your order is doing, right? They put your pizza in the oven, then they took the pizza out of the oven, and I see that in phone, and that gives, that's that feedback that's valuable to me, right? So long as it's working, right? >> John: I'm hungry now. >> So we, we've ravished this word digital transformation all the time. >> Oh yeah, it's a little overused, but. >> It is a little overused. But melding that physical world with cold. I love it that you're a developer. First off, what's your favorite language? >> Oh geez, it really depends on the project. I'm really getting into, I love React right now on the front end. I'll still do Java when it needs some heavy lifting, Ruby for rapid prototyping. It really depends on the task at hand. >> So the value of reducing friction from a developer seeing a problem, needing to solve that problem, and getting the resources needed to solve a problem, AWS does a wonderful job of saying, you know what, developer, give me your credit card, we'll give you all the tools you need. Where is the first stumbling block because this is new capability, net new over the past few years? Where's the first set of stumbling blocks when developers reduce friction, get to that first level contact with the branch manager of the pizza store, where does it fall apart and New Relic comes in to help? >> Look, how many times have you ever had a developer or a tech or someone that works on my machine, right? >> Exactly, worked on my laptop. I don't know why it didn't deploy well in production, it worked perfectly fine on my laptop. >> I really, I started thinking about and solving this problem 20 years ago now. The notion of less instrument Java code because I was frustrated with the stuff that worked on my laptop. I couldn't understand why it didn't work when a customer used it, and everything prior to the customer using the software is nothing but sunk cost. There is no value in the software you're building until it runs in production. How well it runs in production is what determines the fate of the application. And that's where New Relic comes in, is we feel like alright, let me take you back to the ancient days of like turn of the century, 2000, nothing went to production without QA. Now nothing goes to production without instrumentation. >> Yeah, but now Agile's there, so the old days was a crab. You built a software product, but you didn't know if it was going to work until it went into production with QA. Now you're shipping stuff fast, so it's still. You've got that dev off mindset, but it's in QA. >> One of our customers, Airbnb, deploys more than a thousand times a day. And this is not a small, low load site. I mean like every deploy has to work, otherwise millions of people are impacted and it's the whole business, and it's a big business, so you're talking about a pace of innovation and change that cannot be managed with a traditional QA cycle. I've, of course testing's important, but instrumentation's more important than that. >> Lew, I want to ask you an important question because I asked Andy Jassie this last Monday when I had a one on one with him. A lot of people that are entering ecosystem for Amazon is new, that are new, or considerably, Amazon's the big, they're fearful, it's always going to be that way. He highlighted your company, New Relic, and said they're an amazing part, they do extremely well, even though they introduced Cloud Watch, which because some customers just wanted it, they have monitoring, but you guys are so much better. I said that, but if he implied it, obviously you're doing well. So the successful participation of the ecosystem is there. You can be successful in the Amazon ecosystem. >> Absolutely, it's a great partnership. >> So what's this formula for a new entry coming in or someone who's here that needs to find some white space? How do you read the tea leaves to know where not to play and where to play? >> You know, it just comes down to the fundamental good thought process you use when you're thinking about approaching your customer too. Don't think about what's in it for me, the Amazon partner. What's in it for Amazon? How do you make them more successful? And so when I imagine myself as Andy, who is like, what an incredible job he's done, but what Andy, what's top mind of Andy is how do I get more customers consuming more of Amazon faster, right? All of Amazon, all of Amazon's web services, and so we solve a problem for Andy and his team. We help our customers consume Amazon faster because we give them the confidence to consume more and move faster, and there's data to prove it. When Amazon asks their customers that aren't yet New Relic customers how much they're consuming and how fast, they get a slower rate of adoption than they do for the cohort that uses New Relic, and so it's in our mutual interest to go to market together because we help them consume more, and so I. >> John: Build a good product. >> Build a good product. >> John: Customer value. >> Think about how you help your partner be successful. Talk in that language, don't talk in language. >> Alright, so personal question. So you and I, pretend we're sitting here, having a beer, you're playing the guitar. >> A little light. >> I'm singing some tunes and Keith's our friend. He says I'm in trouble, I'm a CIO. I've got a transformation project. I don't know what to do. Which cloud do I use? How do I become data driven? Guys, help me out. Lew, what do you say? >> I say first of all, you have an instrumentation strategy. Everything, if you're a CIO in a large organization, you don't have one, two, three, or four projects. You have dozens, if not hundreds, sometimes thousands of applications and services that are all running, and you've got, I haven't met a CIO that doesn't say they've got too many monitoring tools. So you need an instrumentation strategy. Nothing should run in production without instrumentation. That's not just the service light stuff that runs on EC2, it's also every click that runs. You know, when Dunkin Donuts, which has been a longtime customer of ours, and they run in the Amazon Cloud, you know when you pre-order that doughnut, we track the tap, how long it takes from the phone all the way through the cloud services, all that's fully instrumented, so if you're a CIO, you say I can't be tactical with instrumentation. If I'm going to move fast and compete at my software, nothing should run in production without education. >> John: That's native. >> That's right. >> Foundational. >> Foundational. It's a core requirement to run in production if you're going to move at any level of speed, so establish that strategy, and then we think, we offer the best instrumentation, certainly the best value, the most ubiquitous, the easiest to use, the most comprehensive, and then we make the most sense of it, but you could pick another, you know you could pick another strategy. Some people do the heavy lifting of manually instrumenting all their code. We just don't think that's a good use of your developer time, so we automatically do that for you, but have a strategy and then execute to it. >> Awesome. Lew, congratulations on a blowout quarter. I won't even get you to comment on it, just say that you guys had a great quarter, stocks at an all time high, all because you guys are doing a great product. Congratulations and great to have you on the Cube. >> We're delighted to be here. I've honestly, I've been a longtime fan. It means a lot that you could have me on, and we really enjoy partnering with Amazon, and what a great show. >> Yeah, super successful ecosystem partner, one of the best, New Relic, based out of San Francisco, here with the founder and CEO, also musician, writes code, gets down and dirty, runs a publicly held company. He's Superman. Lew, thanks for coming on the Cube. More live data and action here on the Cube after this short break, stay with us. (upbeat instrumental music)

>> Hey welcome back everybody. Jeff Frick, with the Cube. We're at Node Summit 2017 in downtown San Francisco. About 800 people, developers talking about Node and Node GS. And really the crazy adoption of Node as a development platform. Enterprise adoption. Everything's up and to the right. Some crazy good stories. And we're excited to have somebody coming right off his keynote. It's James Bellenger. He is an engineer at Twitter. James, welcome. >> Thank you, thank you for having me. >> Yeah, absolutely. So you just got off stage and you were talking all about Twitter Lite. What is Twitter Lite? I like Twitter as it is. >> Ah, so Twitter Lite is an optimized, it's a mobile web app. So if you pull up your phone, open up the web browser and go to twitter.com, in your smart phone web browser, you get a Twitter experience that we're calling Twitter Lite. >> Okay. >> And it used to be a little bit out of date. But we've been able to update it using a lot of new exciting web technologies. And so now we have this thing that feels very much like a native web app. >> Okay. >> They call them progressive web apps these days. And so we're using that as sort of a way to sort of compete in areas and markets where maybe a native apps are less able to compete. Where you know, people don't want to download a 200 megabyte iOS app. They want something that fits under 600 kilobytes. >> Okay. So you had the Twitter Lite app before. And then this was really a re-deployment? Or am I getting it wrong? >> I think, well we had We had a web app at mobile.twitter.com. >> Okay. >> And it was just sort of the mobile web app. >> Okay. >> But you know we sort of really rewrote everything. And that includes the back end on Node. And then we're now sort of pushing that and calling it Twitter Lite. >> Okay. And when did that go live or GA? >> About three months ago. >> Three months ago, okay. Super. So obviously you're here at Node. You just spoke at Node. You know, how was the experience using a Node tool set versus whatever you had it built on before? >> It's definitely faster in every way. Well, I mean, >> Faster in every way. That's a good thing. >> So well, let me Let me catch that. Be more specific. It is ... >> It's those benchmarking people. We need them back over here. >> It is very fast for how we apply it. It's really fast for development speed. And perhaps the biggest win is that on both sort of areas of our stack whether it's the part of the application that runs on the browser or it's the part of the application that runs inside the Twitter data center. We have one language and technology. So when a problem comes up and an engineer needs to like go and find the problem and fix it they don't need to sort of "Oh, well that's server code. "I don't know how it works. "And it's written in this language I don't understand." We really just have one application and it happens to run in both places. And so it really improves engineering efficiency. >> And you saw that in the development process, QA and the ongoing. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. And was it more ... So it's more like the guys that were more front end that now have access to the back end and then the other way around. Is that correct? Yeah, it's a little bit of both. >> Okay. >> You know, I think before I think there's people that they really like Scala. And they only want to work in Scala. Or there's people that really don't like it. So you end up, I think, having engineers kind of get bulkanized by their technology choices, and their preferred systems. But I think it really sort of tears down a couple walls. And so it makes, it improves engineering efficiency that way. But we found also that some of the tool sets and the tool chains that we're using allow engineers to just sort of like move faster. >> Right. >> So you know, whether that's like recompiling the service in like one second. Instead of having to wait for multiple minutes. There's just sort of less time spent waiting. >> Right. And in terms of don't share anything you're not supposed to share but in terms of, you know, frequency of releases and ongoing maintenance and kind of the development of the I won't say the app, not the app. I guess it is the app. Going forward, you know, how has that been impacted by moving to this platform? >> I think it might be too early to say. >> Okay. >> We've, you know, right now we've got about 12 to 15 engineers and we're ramping up. And it, I think it might, we're kind of looking to finish around 25 engineers, by the end of the year. >> Okay. >> So the sort of team and contributor base of the kind of like core team that are working on the app is growing. But you know, otherwise there's, you know, we're releasing every day. We're, you know, we try to you know, we're always pushing code. We're running experiments a lot. >> Right. I don't know if that answers your question but. >> So it sounds like it's a little easier but you're still doing everything you were doing before but now it just feels like it's easier because of this. >> Well, you know, talk to me in a couple months. >> Okay. >> Then maybe we'll have some better answers for you. >> Okay. So the other thing I want, if I talk to you in a couple months, I talk to you a year from now, just in terms of as you look down the road, you know, what this opens up. You know, kind of what are some of your priorities now that you've got it out. You said you've been out there for three months. What's kind of next on your roadmap, your horizon? >> So far, I think we've been really encouraged by the success of using this stack for development. So we're looking to kind of double down on that. >> Okay. >> So that means looking at some of the other Twitter web apps. Oh, sorry, Twitter apps in general. The other ways people use Twitter. And to sort of look at how they were built. And to see, because we're using React, and because we're using, I think technologies that make it very easy to you know, be responsive and you know, either be have a wide layout or a very narrow layout, or work offline. We have a lot of potential to sort of cannibalize or replace and also update some of the existing apps >> Right. >> That maybe don't get the attention that they need. >> Right. >> So there's some of that. And then I think Twitter Lite as a product I think that we're going, you know, we're looking to really expand it's reach. And make a big push in some of the developing areas. >> Yeah. Because the other thing people don't know, I mean, Twitter's acquired a bunch of companies, you know, over the years. So we've heard some examples earlier today, where that's a use case when you do have the opportunity to maybe redo an acquired application. You know, that those are kind of natural opportunities to look to redo them with this method. >> Yeah. Sure. >> All right. Cool. Well, James, thanks for taking a few minutes. >> Thank you. >> Congratulations on the talk. And I'll think of you next time I go to Twitter Lite. >> Yeah. Thank you so much. >> All righty. He's James Bellenger from Twitter. I'm Jeff Frick. You're watching the Cube from Node Summit 2017. Thanks for watching. (techno music)