(upbeat music) >> Hey everyone. And welcome to this CUBE Conversation which is part of the AWS startup showcase. Season two, episode four of our ongoing series. The theme of this episode is cybersecurity, detect and protect against threats. I'm your host, Lisa Martin, and I'm pleased to be joined by the founder and CEO of Hunters.AI, Uri May. Uri, welcome to theCUBE. It's great to have you here. >> Thank you, Lisa. It's great to be here. >> Tell me a little bit about your background and the founders story. This company was only founded in 2018, so you're quite young. But gimme that backstory about what you saw in the market that really determined, this is needed. >> Yeah, absolutely. So, I mean, I think the biggest thing for us was the understanding that significant things have happened in the cybersecurity landscape for customers and technology stayed the same. I mean, we tried on solving the same... We tried on solving a big problem with the same old tools when we actually noticed that the problem has changed significantly. And we saw that change happening in two different dimensions. The first is the types of attacks that we're defending against. A decade ago, we were mostly focused on these highly sophisticated nation state efforts that included unknown techniques and tactics and highly sophisticated kind of methods. Nowadays, we're talking a lot about cyber crime gangs, whoops of people that are financially motivated or using off the shelf tools, of the shelf malware, coordinating in the dark web, attacking for money and ransom basically, versus sophisticated intelligence kind of objectives. And in the same time of that happening, we also saw what we like to refer to as explosion of the securities stack. So some of our customers are using more than 60 or 70 different security tools that are generating sometimes tens of terabytes a day of flows. That explosion of data, together with a very persistent and consistent threat that is continuously affecting customers, create a very different environment, where you need to analyze a big variety of data and you need to constantly defend yourself against stuff that are happening all the time. And that was kind of like our wake moment when we understand that the tools that are out there now might have been the right tools a decade ago, they are probably not the right tools to solve the problem now. So yeah, I think that that was kind of what led us to Hunters. And in the same time, and I think that that's my personal kind of story behind it. We used to talk a lot about the fact that we want to solve a fundamental problem. And we, as part of the ideation around Hunters and us zooming in on exactly the areas that we want to focus on in security, we talked with a lot of CSOs, we talked with a lot of industry experts, everyone directed us to the security operation center. I mean the notion that there's a lot of tools and there's always going to be a lot of tools, but eventually decisions are being made by people that are running security operation center, that are actually acting as the first line of defense. And that's where you feel that the processes are woke. That's where you feel that that technology doesn't really meet the rabel, and the rabel doesn't really meet the hold. And for us, it was a very clear sign that this is where we need to focus on. And that set us on a journey to explore red hunting and then understand that we can solve something bigger than that. And then eventually get to where we are today, which is go to market around. So holistic a platform that can help SOC analysts doing the day to day job defending the organizations. >> So you saw back in 2018, probably even before that that the SIEM market was prime and right for disruption. And only in a four year time period, there's been some pretty significant milestones and accomplishment that the team at Hunters has made in that short timeframe. Talk to me about some of those big milestones that the company has reached in just four years. >> Yeah, I think that the biggest thing and I know that it's going to sound like a cliche, but we're actually believing that I think it's the team. I mean, we're able to go to an organization of around 150 employees. All over the world, the course, I think I mean the last time that I checked, like 15 countries. That's the most amazing feeling that you can have. That ability to attract people to a single mission from all over the world and to get them collaborate and do amazing things and achieve unbelievable accomplishment. I think that's the biggest thing. The other thing for us was customers. I mean, think about it like, SIEM it's such a central and critical system. So for us as a young startup from Tel Aviv to go out to Enterprise America and convince the biggest enterprise around the world to rip and replace the the existing solutions that are being built by the biggest software brands out there and install Hunters instead, that's a huge leap of trust, that we are very grateful for, and we're trying to handle with a lot of care and a lot of responsibility. And obviously, I think that other than that, is all of the investors that we were able to attract that basically enabled all of that customer acquisition and team building and product development. And we're very fortunate to work with the biggest names out there, both from a strategic perspective and also from tier one VCs from mainly from the U.S., but from all over the world, actually that are backing us. >> Great customers, solid foundation. Hunters is built for the clouds, is powered by Snowflake. This is AWS built. Talk to me about what's in it for me from an AWS customer perspective. What's that value in it for them? >> Yeah, so I think that the most important thing, in my opinion, at least, is the security value that you're getting from it. Other than the fact that Hunters is a multi-tenant SaaS application running in AWS, it's also a system that is highly tuned and specifically built to be very effective against detecting threats inside AWS environments. So we invested a lot of time in research, in analyzing the way attackers are operating inside cloud environments, specifically in AWS. And then we model these techniques and tactics and procedures into the system. We're leveraging data sets like AWS CloudRail and CloudWatch and VPC Flow Logs, obviously AWS GuardDuty which is an amazing detection system that AWS offer to its customer, and we're able to leverage it, correlate it with other signals. And at the same time, there's also the commercial aspect and the business aspect. I mean, we're allowing AWS customers to leverage the AWS credits to the marketplace to fund same projects like Hunters that comes with a lot of efficiencies also. And with a lot of additional capabilities like I mentioned earlier. >> So let's crack open Hunters.AI. What makes this approach different? You talked about the challenges that you guys saw in the market that were gaps there, and why technology needed to come in from a disruption standpoint. But describe the differentiators. When you're talking to perspective customers, what are those key differentiators that Hunters brings to the table? >> Yeah, absolutely. So we like to divide it into three main pillars. The first pillar is everything that we do with data, that is very different from our competitors. We believe that data should be completely liberated from the analytical layer. And that's why we're storing data in a dedicated data warehouse. Snowflake, as you mentioned earlier, is one of our go to data warehouses. And that give customers the ability to own their own data. So you as a customer can opt in into using Hunters on top of your Snowflake. It's not the only way. You can also get Snowflake bundled as part of that, your Hunter subscription, but for some customers that ability to reduce vendor lock risk on data on your own and also level security data for other kind of workflows is something that is really huge. So that's the first thing that is very different. The second thing is what we like to call security engineering as a service. So when you buy Hunters, you don't just buy a data platform. You actually buy a system, a SOC platform that is already populated with use cases. So what we are saying is that in today's world the threats that we're handling as a SOC, as security operations center professionals are actually shared by 80% of the customers out there. So 80% of the customers share around 80% of the threat. And what we're basically saying is let us as a vendor, solve the detection response around that 80%. So you as a customer could focus on the 20% that is unique to your environment. Then in a lot of cases generate 80% of the impact. So that means that you are getting a lot of rebuilt tools and detections, data modeling to your integrations, automatic investigations, scoring correlations. All of these things are being continuously deployed and delivered by us because we're multi tenant SaaS. And also allowing you again to get this effortless tail key kind of solution that is very different from your experience with your current SIEM tools that usually involves a lot of tuning, professional services, configuration, et cetera. And the last aspect of it, is everything that we're doing around automation. We're leveraging very unique graph technology and what we call automatic investigation enrichments that allows us to take all of these signals that we're extracting from all over the attacks, of say AWS included, but also the endpoint and the email and the network and IOT environments and whatever automatically investigate them, load them into a graph and then automatically correlate them to what we call stones, which are basically representation of incidents that are happening across your tax office. And that's a very unique capability that we bring into the table that demonstrates our focus on the analytical lens. So it's not just log aggregation, and querying and dashboarding kind of system. It's actually a security analytic system that is able to drive real insights on top of the data that you're plugging into it. >> So talk to me, Uri, when you're in customer conversations these days the market is there's so many dynamics and flux that customers are dealing with. Obviously, the threat landscape continues to expand and really become quite amorphous as that perimeter blends. What are some of the specific challenges that security operation center or SOC teams come to you saying, help us eliminate this. We have so many tools, we've probably got limited resources. What are those challenges and how does Hunters really wipe those off the plate? >> Yeah, so I think the first and foremost has to do with the second pillar that I mentioned earlier and that's security engineering. So for most security operations centers and most organizations around the world, the feeling is that they're kind of like stuck on this third wheel. They keep on buying tools and then implementing these tools and then writing rules and then generating noise and then fine tuning the rules. And then testing the rules and understanding that the fine tuning actually generated misdetections. And they're kind of like stuck on this vicious side. And no one can really help because a lot of the stuff that they're building, they're building it in their environment. And what we're saying is that, let us do it for you. Well, that 80% that we've mentioned earlier and allows you to really focus on the stuff that you're doing and even offset your talent. So, we're not talking about really a talent reduction. Because everyone needs more talent in cybersecurity nowadays but we're talking a lot about offset. I mean, if we had a team of five people investing efforts in building walls, building automation, and now three or four of these people can go and do advanced investigations, instant response, threat hunting interval, that's meaningful. For a lot of SOCs, in a lot of cases that means either identifying and analyzing a threat in time or missing it. So, I mean, I think that that's the biggest thing. And the other thing has to do with the first thing that I mentioned earlier, and these are the data challenges. Data challenges in terms of cost, performance, the ability to absorb data sets that today's tools can't really support. I mean, for example, one of the biggest data sets that we're loading that is tremendously helpful is raw data for EDR products. Raw data for EDR products in large enterprises can get to 10, 15, 20 terabytes a day. In today's SIEMs and SOC platforms that the customers are using, this thing is just as prohibited from SOC. They can't really analyze it because it's so costly. So what we're saying is a lot of what we're seeing is a lot of customers, either not analyzing it at all, or saving it for a very little amount of time, account of days. Because they can't support the retention around it. So the ability to store huge data sets for longer period of time makes it something that a lot of big enterprises need. And to be honest, I think that in the next couple of years they would also be forced to have these kind of capabilities, even from a compliance perspective. >> So in terms of outcomes, I'm hearing reduction in costs really helping security teams utilize their resources, the ability to analyze growing volumes of data. That's only going to continue to increase as we know. Is there a customer story, Uri that you have that really, where the value proposition of Hunters really shines through? >> Yeah, I think that one thing comes to mind from those hospitality vertical and actually it's a reference customer. I mean, we can share the name. His name is booking.com. It's also publicly shown on our website. And they think the coolest thing that we were able to do with booking is give them that capability to stay up to date with the threats that they're facing. So it's not just that we saved a lot of efforts from them because we came with a lot of out of the box capabilities that they can use. We also kept them up to date with everything that they were facing. And there was a couple of cases, where we were able to detect threats that were very recently from threat perspective. Based on our ability to invest research time and efforts in everything that is going on in the ecosystem and the feedback that we got from the customer, and it's not a single of feedback. Like we're getting it a lot, is that, without you guys we wouldn't be able to do the effective research and then the implementation of this and the threat modeling and the implementation of these things in time. And walking with you kind of like made the difference between analyzing it and reacting in time and potentially blocking like a very serious bridge versus maybe finding out when it's too late. >> Huge impact there. And I'm kind of thinking, Hunters aim, might be one of the reasons that booking.com's tagline it's booking.com, booking.yeah. Yeah, we're secure. We know if we can demonstrate that to everyone that uses our service. I noticed kind of wrapping things up here, Uri. I noticed that back in I think it was January of 2022, Hunters raised about 60 million in series C. You talked about kind of being in the GTM phase, where are some of those strategic investments? What have you been doing, focusing on this year and what's to come as we round out 22? >> Yeah, absolutely. So, I mean, there's a lot of building going on. Yeah. Still, right. I mean, we're getting into that scale mode and scale phase but we're very much also building our capabilities, building our infrastructure, building our teams, building our business processes. So there's a lot of efforts going into that, but in the same time, I mean, we've being able to vary, to depending our relationship with DataBlitz which is a very important partner of us. And we got some big news coming up on that. And they were a strategic investor that participated in our series C. And in the same time we're walking in the air market which is a very interesting market for us. And we get a lot of support from one other strategic investor that joined the series C, Deutsche Telekom. And they are a huge provider in IT and security in email, other than doing a lot of other things and including T-systems and T-Mobile and everything that has to do with that. So we're getting a lot of support from them. And regardless, I think, and that ties back to what we've mentioned earlier, the ability for us to come to really big customers with the quality of investors that we have is a very important external validation. It's basically saying like this company is here to stay. We're aiming at disrupting the market. We're building something big. You can count on us by replacing this critical system that we're talking about. And sometimes it makes a difference, like sometimes for some of the customers, it means that this is something that I can rely on. Like it's not a startup that is going to be sold two months after I'm deploying it. And it's not a founder that is going to disappear on me. And for a lot of customers, these things happen, especially in an ecosystem like cybersecurity, that is so big with such a huge variety of different systems. So, yeah, I think that we're getting ready for that scale mode and hopefully it'll happen sooner than what we think. >> A lot of growth already as we mentioned in the beginning of the program. Since just 2018 it sounds like from a foundation perspective, you guys are strong, you're rocking away and ready to really take things into 2023 with such force. Uri, thank you so much for joining me on the program, talking about what Hunters.AI is up to and how you're different and why you're disrupting the SIEM market. We appreciate your insights and your time. >> Absolutely. Lisa, the pleasure was all mine. Thank you for having me. >> Likewise. For Uri May, I'm Lisa Martin. Thank you for watching our CUBE Conversation as part of the AWS startup showcase. Keep it right here for more actions on theCUBE, your leader in tech coverage. (upbeat music)

>> Narrator: From around the globe, It's theCube, with digital coverage, of Actifio data-driven 2020, brought to you by Actifio. >> Welcome back, I'm Stu Miniman, and this is theCube coverage of Actifio Data-driven 2020. Really excited to, dig into a fun topic. I have a Cube alumni with us he is a DevOps author, and researcher Gene Kim. Unicorn Project is the most recent, Gene, great to see you, thanks so much for joining us. >> Stu, great to see you again, here at the Actifio conference, this is all fantastic. >> Yeah, so your new book, it was much awaited out there, you know, Unicorn's always discussed out there, but you know, the Phoenix Project, as I said, is really this seminal, book when people say, What is that DevOps thing and how do I do it? So, why don't you give us a little bit as to The Unicorn Project, why is it important? Why we're excited to dig into this and, we'll, we'll tie it into the discussion we're having here for the next normal, at Actifio. >> For sure, yeah, in fact, yeah. As you might have heard in the keynote address, you know, the what, what vexed me, after the Phoenix project came out in 2013 is that there is still looming problems that still remain, seven years after the Phoenix project was written. And, you know, these problems I think are very important, around you and what does it really take to enable developers to truly be productive, instead of being locked in a tundra of technical debt. Two is, you know, how do we unlock truly the power of data so that we can help everyone make better decisions, whether it's a developer, or anyone, within the business units and the organizations that we serve. And then three is like, what are really the behaviors that we need from leadership to make these amazing transformations possible? And so The Unicorn Project really is, the fifth project retold, but instead of through the eyes of Ops leadership, is told through the eyes, of a phenomenal developer. And so it was amazing to revisit the, the Phoenix project universe, I in the same timeline, but told from a different point of view. And it was such a fun project to work on, just because, you know, to relive the story, and just expose all these other problems, not happening, not on the side, but from, the development and data side. >> Yeah. They've always these characters in there that, I know I personally, and many people I talked to can, you know, really associate with, there was a return of certain characters, quite prominent, like Brent, you know, don't be the bottleneck in your system. It's great, if you're a fighter firefighter, and can solve everything, but if everything has to come through you, you know, Pedro is always going off, he's getting no sleep and, you know, you'd just get stressed out. You talked a bit more, about the organization and there are the five ideals in the book. So maybe if you can, you know, strongly recommend, of course, anybody at ending active you, got a copy of the books they'll be able to read the whole thing, but, you know, give us the bumper sticker on some of those key learnings. >> Yeah, for sure, yeah. So the five ideals represents five ideas, I think are just very important, for everyone, the organization, serves, especially leadership. The first ideal is locality and simplicity. In other words, when you need to get something done, we should be able to get it done within our team, without having to do a lot of communication coordination, with people outside of our team. The worst, the most horrible feeling is that in order, to do a small little thing, you actually have, to have a, coordinated action that spans 15 teams, right. And that's why you can't get anything done, right? And so that's so much the hallmark of large complex organizations. The second ideal is that what I think the outcomes are, which is focused flow and joy, you know, I've not just now started to for the first time in 20 years, self identify, not as an ops person, but as a developer. And, I really now understand, why we got into technology in the first place. This so that we can solve the business problem at hand unencumbered by minute share. And that allows for a sense of focus flow and even joy. And I love how Dr. Mihaly Csikszentmihalyi, describe it. He said, flow is a state that we feel when we love our work, so much that we lose track of time, and maybe even sense of self. And so I think we all in technology understand, you know, that that is how it is on the best of days and how terrible it is, you know, when we don't have that sense of flow. Third ideal is improvement of daily work, being even more important than daily work itself. The notion is greatness is never free, we must create it and must prioritize it, for the psychological safety. And the fifth is customer focus. So those are all the things I think are so important, for modern leaders, because it really defines the future of work. >> Yeah, we love that flow and it happens otherwise we're stuck, in that waiting place as you quoted Dr. Csi. So one of my favorite books there, there also. So Gene, for this audience here, there was, you know, yes, CICD is wonderful and I need to be able to move and ship fast, but the real transformational power, for that organization was unlocking the value of data, which is, I think something that everybody here can. So maybe to talk a little bit about that you know, we, there there's, we've almost talked too much, you know, data is the new oil and things like that, but it's that, you know, that allowing everybody to tap in and leverage, you know, real time what's happening there were just at the early parts of the industry being able to unlock that future. >> Oh yeah, I love that phrase. Data is new oil, especially since oil, you know, the last 50 years, the standard Port 500 was dominated by, you know, resource extraction oil company and so forth. And now that is no longer true, it's dominated by the tech giants. And, Columbia there was a Columbia journalism review article that said, data's not only the new oil, is really the new soil. And for me, you know, my area of passion for the last seven years has been studying the DevOps enterprise community where, we're taking all the learnings that were really pioneered by the tech giants, Facebook, Amazon, Netflix, Google, Microsoft, and seeing how they're being adopted by the largest, most complex organizations on the planet, the best known brands across every industry vertical. And it's so true that, you know, where the real learning gets exploited right, is through data. I realized, this is how we get to know our customers better. This is how we understand their wants and needs. This is how we test, and make offers to them to see if they like it or not to see if they value it or not. And, and so for me, one of the best examples, of this was, the target transformation and Adidas how it was just an amazing example of, to what links they went to, to liberate developers from, being shackled by ancient systems of records, data warehouses, and truly enabled developers to get access to the data they need modify it, even delete information, all without having to be dependent on, you know, integration teams that were essentially holding them hostage for six to nine months. And, these programs really enable some of the most strategic programs at their organizations, you know, enabling hundreds of projects over the years. So, I think that is really, just showing to what extent, the value that is created by unlocking data for individuals. And sorry Stu, one more thing that I'm just always dazzled by my friend, Chris Berg. He told me that, somewhere between a third and a half of all company employees use data in their daily work. They either use data or manipulate data as part of the daily work, which, you know, that, population is actually larger than the number of developers in an organization. So it just shows you how big this problem is, and how much value we can create by addressing this problem. >> Well, it's interesting if it's only a third, we still have work to do. What we've been saying for years is, you know, when you talk about digital transformation, the thing that separates those that have transformed and those that haven't is data needs to be at the core. I just can't be doing things the way I was or doing things off intuition, you know, being data-driven, I'm sure you know, the same Gene, if you're not, if you don't have data, you know, you're just some other person with an opinion. >> Yeah, yeah. That's it this is a great point. And in Risto Siilasmaa's amazing book, Transforming Nokia, I mean, he was, he said exactly that. And he said something that was even more astonishing. He said, there's not only at the core, but data also has to be at the edges. You know, he was describing at Amazon, anyone can do an experiment @booking.com. Anyone can do an experiment to see, if they can create value for the customer. They don't need approvals from, committees or their manager. This is something that is really truly part of everyone's daily work. And so, to me, that was a huge aha moment that says, you know, to what degree, you know. Our cultures need to change so that we can not only, use data, but also create learnings and create new data, you know, that the rest of the organization can learn from as well. >> Yeah. One of the other things I definitely, you know, felt in your book, you synthesize so much of the learnings that you've had over the years from like the DevOps enterprise summit. The question I have for you is, you know, you hear some of these, you know, great stories, but the question is, our companies, are they moving fast enough? Have they transformed the entire business or have they taken, you know, we've got one slice of the business that is kind of modernized and we're going to get to the other 30 pieces along the way, but you know, there's wholesale change, you know, 2020 has had such a big impact. What's your thoughts on, you know, how we are doing in the enterprise on pace of change these days? >> That's a great question. I mean, I think some people, when they ask me, you know, how far are we into kind of total adoption of DevOps? It's a newer better way of working. And I would say probably somewhere between 5 and 7%, right, and the math I would take them through is, you know, there are about 20 million developers on the planet of which at best, I think, a million of them are working in a DevOps type way. But yet now that's only growing. I think it was an amazing presentation at DevOps surprise summit in London that was virtual from nationwide building society, the largest organization of its kind. It's a large financially mutually owned organization for housing in the UK. And, they touched about how, you know, post COVID post lockdown suddenly they found themselves able to do them reckless things that would have normally taken four years, in four weeks. And I think that's what almost every organization is learning these days is, when survival is at stake, you know, we can throw the rules out of the window, right. And do things in a way that are safe and responsible, but, you know, create satisfy the business urgent needs, like, you know, provisioning tens of thousand people to work from home safely. You know, I think the shows, I think it's such a powerful proof point of what technology can do when it is unleashed from, you know, perhaps unnecessarily burdensome rules and process. And I think the other point I would make Stu is that, what has been so rewarding is the population of these technology leaders presenting at DevOps enterprise, they're all being promoted, they're all being, being given new responsibilities because they, are demonstrating that they have the best longterm interest of the organization at heart. And, they're being given even more responsibilities because, to make a bigger impact through the organization. So I'm incredibly optimistic about the direction we're heading and even the pace we're going at. >> Well, Gene definitely 2020 has put a real highlight on how fast things have changed, not just work from home, but, but the homeschooling, you know, telehealth, there are so many things out there where there was no choice, but to move forward. So the, the second presentation you participated in was talking about that next normal. So give us a little bit of, you know, what does that mean? You know, what, what we should be looking at going forward? >> Yeah, it was great to catch up with my friend Paul Forte, who I've known for many, many years, and now, now a VP of sales at the Actifio and yeah, I think it is amazing that academic Dr. Colada Perez, she said, you know, in every turning point, you know, where, there's such a the stage for decades of economic prosperity usually comes, by something exactly like what we're going through now, a huge economic recession or depression, following a period of intense re regulations there's new, technology that's unlocking, you know, new ways of working. And she pointed exactly to what's happening in the Covid pandemic in terms of, how much, the way we're working is being revolutionized, not by choice, but out of necessity. And, you know, as she said, you know, we're now learning to what degree we can actually do our daily work without getting on airplanes or, you know, meeting people in person. So, I'm a hue, I have so many friends in the travel industry, right. I think we all want normalcy to return, but I think we are learning, you know, potentially, you know, there are more efficient ways to do things, that don't require a day of travel for a couple hour meeting and day to return, right. So, yeah, I think this is being demonstrated. I think this will unlock a whole bunch of ways of interacting that will create efficiency. So I don't think we're going, as you suggested, right. There will be a new normal, but the new normal is not going to be the same as your old normal. And I think it will be, in general for the better. >> So, Gene, you, you've gone to gotten to see some of the transformation happening in the organizations when it comes to developers, you know, the, the DevOps enterprise summit, the, the state of DevOps, you know. I think five years ago, we knew how important developers were, but there was such a gap between, well, the developers are kind of in the corner, they don't pay for anything. They're not tied to the enterprise. And today it feels like we have a more cohesive story that there, there is that if you put in The Unicorn Project, it's, you know, business and IT, you know. IT, and the developers can actually drive that change and the survival of the business. So, you know, are we there yet success or net developers now have a seat at the table? Or, you know, what do you see on that, that we still need to do? >> Yeah, I think we're still, I mean, I think we're getting there, we're closer than ever. And as my friend, Chris O'Malley the CEO of the famously resurgent mainframe vendor Compuware said, you know, it is, everyone is aware that you can't do any major initiatives these days without some investment in technology, right? In fact, you can't invest in anything without technology. So I think that is now better understood than ever. And, yeah, just the digital, it's a whole digital disruption, I think is really, no one needs to be convinced that if we organize large complex organizations, don't change, they're at a risk of, you know, being decimated by the organizations that can change using an exploiting technology, you know, to their benefit and to the other person's detriment. So, and that primarily comes through software and who creates software developers. So I, by the way, I love the Stripe it was a CFO for Stripe who said, the largest, constraint for them is, and their peers is not access to capital, it is access development talent. I think when you have CFOs talking like that, right. It does says it's suggested something really has changed in the economic environment that we all compete in. >> So, I mentioned that on the research side, one of the things I've loved reading over the years is that, fundamental discussion that, going faster does not mean, that I am sacrificing security, or, you know, the product itself, you know, in the last couple of years, it's, you know, what separates those really high performing companies, and, you know, just kind of the middle of the ground. So, what, what, what advice would you give out there, to make sure that I'm moving my company more along to those high performing methods. >> Yeah, but just to resonate with that, I was interviewing a friend of mine, Mike Nygaard, long time friend of mine, and we were talking on and we were recalling the first time we both heard the famous 2009 presentation doing 10 deploys a day, every day at flicker, by John Allspaw and Paul Hammond. And we were both incredulous, right there? We thought it was irresponsible reckless, and maybe even immoral what they were doing, because, you know, I think most organizations were doing three a year, and that was very problematic. How could one do 10 deploys a day. And I think, what we now know, with the size of evidence, especially through the state of DevOps research, is that, you know, for six years, 35,000 plus respondents, the only way that you can be reliable, and secure, is to do smaller deployments more frequently, right? It makes you, be able to respond quicker in the marketplace, allows you to have better stability and reliability in the operational environment, allows you to be more secure. It allows you to be able to, you know, increase market share, increase productivity, and, you know, have happier employees. So, you know, at this point, I think the research is so decisive, that, you know, we can, as a whole book accelerate, that really makes the case for that, that this is something that I now have moral certainty or even absolute certainty oh, right. It's, you know, self evident to me, and it, I think we should have confidence that that really is true. >> Wonderful work, Gene, thanks so much for giving us the update. I really appreciate it, some really good sessions here in Actifio, as well as the book. Thanks so much, great to talk to you. >> Stu is always a pleasure to see you again, and thank you so much. >> Alright, that's our coverage from Actifio Data-driven, be sure to check out thecube.net for all of the, on demand content, as well as, as I said, if you were part of the show, definitely recommend reading Gene's book, The Unicorn Project. I'm Stu Miniman. And thank you for watching the cube. (soft upbeat music)

>> Narrator: Live (upbeat music playing) from Boston, Massachusetts. It's The Cube! Covering Red Had Summit 2017. Brought to you by Red Hat. >> Welcome back to The Cube's coverage of the Red Hat Summit here in Boston, Massachusetts. I'm your host, Rebecca Knight, we are joined by Andre Baumgart and Dorothee Rhein Straub of Swiss-based easiER AG; easiER AG is a Swiss-based emergency room management company. Dorothee tell us about the idea, where it started. >> I'm an MD. And working in emergency rooms for several years now. And I thought it's annoying how people have to wait if they want to be seen by a physician. And I thought, if I am able to make an appointment for a headrest or just reserve a seat in a movie, it should be able to make an appointment for an physician even in an emergency. And that's why I came up with the idea; it's like checking in in a hotel. It's so easily done on your phone and I shared my ideas with my partners, Andre and Kai, and they thought it's something worthwhile to pursue. That's how it came along. >> So, you're physicians and you saw this, a problem from the doctors' side, from the providers' side. >> Actually, I thought problem from the patients' side 'cause I'm trying to think for patient. And I'm more relaxed if I have a problem, myself, I'm more relaxed if I can sit at home and wait for an appointment or if I know that one of the physician will see me today; instead of trying to get there and just be sitting around an emergency room and waiting area. >> And what about the provider side, though? What is it like, for you too, as a physician, trying to make sure you're seeing all the patients that need you? >> I think one of the good things about this app is as well I can schedule my day, I can tell my employees what they will be expecting what kind of patients, I can trigger or schedule the workload as well. And you can keep in touch with your patients and I think that's a very important thing, to be in touch with your patients and your employees. That's one thing, too. >> So that was the problem you were trying to solve. >> Dorothee: Yeah. >> So, tell me, after she shared this idea with you, so then where did you go next? What was the next process in the, the next step in the process? >> After we discussed what to do with it, and we selled it internally to the hospitals management but, unfortunately, due to budgets and due to other projects strategically, they decided not to do it. And then we said, "hey, it's such a great idea "to have a booking.com-like emergency room "scheduling system that we should follow this, "right, and we should do it?" And then we said, "okay, let's start our own thing." And we discussed with whom you could do it and we found Kai as a perfect partner. And we said, "okay, let's do it together." And so the company started, essentially, and that was the foundation of easiER AG, then. Yeah? >> And then, and as you said, you couldn't find necessarily, the money, the backing at first. So, then you said, "where do we go, "where do we really now take this to the next level? And how, how did you get involved with Red Hat? >> I know Red Hat for quite some time through the Open Source community. I, myself, did development in the Chablis community. So, I know, Red Hat quite well for several years. So I know that the stack and the technologies they used evolved over time and now, with the announcement of these self-serve open-shift platforms , this was a, actually, or is a revolution for the technology side. And then, I saw last year, the innovational announcement and I- >> The light bulb went off. >> Right. And then I said, actually we tried for several months to find a partner that could support us in a very structured and modern way. And then, I said okay, let's try this. They are a big company, maybe we are too small for them but I emailed the innovational people and I got feedback and we matched for a discovery session. And the people were so nice, so engaging, so challenging, also, that in the end we came out with the plan for this innovational app. >> So, share with us a little bit about those early days, as you said, they were challenging you. What kind of questions were they asking? Because that is the whole point, is that they are trying to figure out what your minimum viable product could look like. So what kind o' questions were they asking you? How were they pushing you forward? >> I think you have to answer that. (laughing) >> Well, discovery session is there to really validate that the solution is sound that it has a market potential and that that you have a potential to solve this within a short time. In form of a minimum viable product, in order to show that this prototype really solves the problem and Red Hat has the technology then to scale this up to a really market solution. And that was a struggle to really validate, is this MVP able to do within a short time, A? And then, they challenge us as people, you know, are these guys really, can they do that? And can they market it in the end? Because, I mean, doing it for fun might be nice for some time but it's not really our goal. And that was the first challenges they made, then we did conceptualize the user journey from a medic perspective and also from a user perspective, patient perspective, and then we found out, okay, this might make sense to do it in an innovation lab matter, okay? And this was really a very sound approach. We had half a day for workshop, and it was actually perfect to map our ideas, to map the criteria they, you have for this approach, and then and we found together. Yeah? >> So, so, after the discovery process and persuading, I guess, the Red Hat people that you are the right people, that you are, in fact, the right team to bring this product to fruition. How did it work? What were you actually doing at your time at the lab? >> We went to Waterford, Ireland, for three days. Normally, the innovation labs, are, I think, three or four weeks, so that was really special for us. We went there, Andre, me, we had three developers of our own at the site and I think, about 12 people from Red Hat from, I think the best ones they really could get us. And we started early in the mornings, the whole day was scheduled, we had a, we built our case we wanted to do. And, you have to help me with the right words, >> Yeah, we did, essentially, what is called an event-storming; event-storming is what happens, what is really the app doing, step by step, in terms of a user experience, from the patient and the hospital or the doctors side. And then, this event-storming leads to a big board of what is happening as a process and you do that iteratively four or five times during one or two days in order to really engage all of the different levels of people from the developer to the business owner. As well as from the Red Hat side as as from our side of developers, so everybody's engaged in this process. And this is, I think, the innovative idea that you do not have a waterfall like, some people sit together and do it and then, you hand it over to the developers. You bring them together and you discuss it and make the case their own thing. And then they are fully engaged in realizing the product. And that was really the innovative part. >> When you told me that we are going to be on the innovation lab, I thought, "why me? What shall I be doing there?" There are all tech guys, I don't understand a word you are saying that's nothing really for me and, but I really saw it through quite fast 'cause it really makes sense that the business partners or the person who has the idea hat is there, 'cause you can really interfere very well and very fast and get to the point, what is needed. And it was really, it made sense to be there the whole time. >> It is very important that because you could see that sometime the ideas were flowing apart from the original business idea and that we were all people in the room together could ultimately control in every direction where this is heading and so, we had a really intensive two days in order to figure out how this event and system really should work as part of the innovation lab and then as a product for the MVP. >> Well that is so much of what we're talking about here at Red Hat. It's not just the tech, it's also how do people get into a room and get work done together and solve the problem that they're setting out to solve? And I think that you were talking about how you were in the room thinking, "why am I here?" But in fact, you are the, representing the user, from both the patient perspective, understanding what it's like to be in an emergency room and also the doctor perspective. So, how would you, sort of, bring it back and say, "hey, remember what we're doing here. "Remember the problem we set out to solve." >> Most of the time, I'll listen, but then, when I thought, "no that's not going "the direction I want it to be, or we want it to be" I just stood there, held my hand up and said, "No, we have to do it other way." Or, "I think that's not going to work," or "that's not the MVP." And they're really, they understood us very fast and at the beginning it was fascinating to see the Red Hat people and our own developers, everybody wanted to do it their style, 'cause they really are both very good. And it didn't take much time to combine them. And they really worked as a team. And everybody got one up step and it was nice to see. And I think it wasn't a problem to tell them what we think we should be, needed. And at the end, I think, we even got more than we discussed as an MVP. >> Andre: Mm, exaclty. >> After the three days. >> Okay, so so three days, you have the MVP. Where do we stand now with this easiER AG? >> We have an MVP after three days in Waterford. We figure out what to implement in sprints and then after, four, six weeks, we came out with the MVP that is essentially an app on a smart device for the doctor as well as the patient. And this is now working as we presented yesterday in the Keynote. >> Dorothee: Life. >> This is really, a valid product as it is and this can be applied now to healthcare trust or institutions so, if somebody wants to really use that they can do it because it's really working on an open-shift Red Hat innovative platform, right? And you can ultimately push the button and roll it out. I mean, this is really working, so. And, of course, what we have to do is user validation so, in terms of, is the use experience really perceivable independently for the users, this is something, user-testing we are doing right now in order to make it really perfectly user-friendly. And also, for the nurse side and the doctor side, that they can really use it easily, that's one of the most important things. >> And, do you have, are you, using at a hospital in Switzerland, countries around the world have different approaches to healthcare, different approaches to the emergency room, how, are you talking to other places about implementing this in other countries? In other parts o' the world? >> We are asking, we all have the same problems in healthcare. It doesn't matter where you life or where you work. I think it's all the same same problems and waiting times. >> And when you need emergency care, you need care. >> Yeah, you want to be taken care of and you want to be there really fast and you don't want to repeat every time the same sentences and the same problems to four or five people and, so, yeah, we're talking to health institutions at the moment, in Switzerland and Germany, but we hope to get there out soon in other countries as well. And I think this summit has opened many doors, and windows and we're looking forward to the future. >> Yeah, the process itself, that's the good thing, is totally independent of the context or country. It is the problem in any country or every country of the world so, we have a common approach to that and the only thing that needs to be changed it, maybe, is the hospital willing to accept that a certain automation takes place or not. And it can be fully automated or it could be done manually, right, and this is the decision of the healthcare institution or the trust who wants to implement that. So, we are flexible in that because of the technology of Red Hat because they provided the container that is really flexible in implementation. Right? And that's so great. >> Andre, Dorothee, thank you so much for your time, this is, has really been a lot o' fun learning about your company's journey. >> Together: Thank you so much for having us. >> I'm Rebecca Knight, stay tuned for more from the Red Hat Summit. (upbeat tone playing)