>> from our studios in the heart of Silicon Valley, Palo Alto, California. It is a cute conversation. >> Everyone. Welcome to this Special Cube conversation here at the Palo Alto Cube Studios. I'm John for a host of Cuba here. Moritz man is the head of the product management team at Open Systems A G. Great to see you again. Thanks for coming in. >> Hey, John. Thanks for having me. >> So last time we spoke, you had your event in Las Vegas. You guys are launching. You have a new headquarters here in Silicon Valley. Opened up this past spring. Congratulations. Thank you. >> Yeah, it's a great, great venue to start, and we set foot on the Silicon Valley ground. So to make our way to >> I know you've been super busy with the new building and rolling out, expanding heavily here in the Valley. But you guys were in the hottest area that we're covering Security Cloud security on premise, security. The combination of both has been the number one conversation pretty much in the cloud world right now. Honestly, besides a normal cloud, native cloud I t hybrid versus multi cloud out. See, that continues to be the discussion I think there's no more debate around multi cloud in hybrid public clouds. Great people gonna still keep their enterprises. But the security equation still is changing this new requirements. What's the latest that you guys are seeing with respect to security? >> Yeah. So, John, what we see is actually that cloud adoption had happens at different speeds. So you have usually the infrastructure of the service. Adoption would happens in a quite controlled way because there's a lift in shift. Do you have your old data center? You you take it and you transferred into azure I W S O G C P. But then there's also uncontrolled at option, which is in the SAS space. And I think this is where a lot off data risk occur, especially the wake off GDP are on where we see that this adoption happens. Maurin a sometimes control, but sometimes in a very uncontrolled way, >> explain that the uncontrolled and controlled expansion of of how security and multi cloud and cloud is going because this interesting control means this this plan's to do stuff uncontrolled means it's just by other forces explain uncontrolled versus controls >> eso controlled specifically means the IittIe team takes as a project plan and aches servers and workloads and moves them in a controlled fashion or in a dedicated project to the cloud. But what happened in the business world of business I t is actually did use those share content at any time with any device at any at any time and in all locations. So this is called the Mobile Enterprise on the Cloud First Enterprise. So it means that the classical security perimeter and the controls in that are my past, actually, by the path of least resistance or the shortest path >> available. And this is the classic case. People use Dropbox with some, you know, personal things. They're at home, they're at work, a p I based software. That's what you're getting at the >> and the issue of this is that that the data that has bean, like contained an pera meters where, you know, as it Caesar, where your data is. This has bean deployed too many edge devices, too many mobile devices, and it's get it gets shared, a nun controlled way. >> We'll get a couple talk tracks would like to drill down on that, because I think this is the trend. We're seeing a pea eye's dominant. The perimeter on the infrastructure has gone away. It's only getting bigger and larger. You got I, O. T and T Edge just and the networks are controlled and also owned by different people. So the packets of moving on it that's crazy so that that's the reality. First, talk track is the security challenge. What is the security challenge? How does a customer figure out what to do from an architectural standpoint when they're dealing with hybrid and multi cloud? So first of >> all, um, customers or BC enterprises try need to re think their infrastructure infrastructure centric view off the architecture's. So the architecture that had been built around data send us needs to become hybrid and multi cloud aware. So that means they need to define a new way off a perimeter, which is in cloud but also in the covering. Still the old, so to say, legacy hyper data center set up, which has the data still in the old data center and at the same time, they need to open up and become the cloud themselves, so to say, and but still draw a perimeter around their data and they users and not and their applications and not so much anymore around the physical infrastructure. >> So taking, changing their view of what a security product is, Is that really what you're getting at? >> Yeah, So the issues with the product point solution was that they fixed a certain part off off a tactile issue. So if you take a firewall in itself, firewall back then it was like a entry door to a big building, and you could could decide who comes out goes in. Now. If the the kind of the walls of the building are vanishing or arm or more FIC, you need to come over the more integrated concept. So having these stacked appliance and stacked security solutions trying to work together and chain them doesn't work anymore. So we think and we see that, >> Why is that? Why doesn't it work? Because in >> the end, it's it's it's hardly two to operate them. Each of those points solutions have their own end off life. They have their own life cycle. They have their own AP eyes. They have their own TCO, as all that needs to be covered. And then there's the human aspect where you have the knowledge pools around >> those technologies. So as an enterprise you have to content to continuously keep the very scar security experts to maintain content continues the depreciating assets running right, >> and they're also in it. We weren't built for tying into a holistic kind of platform. >> Yeah, What we see is that that enterprises now realize we have data centers and it's not accepted reality that you can abstracted with the cloud. So you have You don't own your own servers and buildings anymore. So you have a PAX model to subscribe to Cloud Service is and we think that this has to happen to security to so shift from cap ex to our pecs and the same way also for operational matters >> securities. The service is a crepe is a small I want to ask you on that front you mentioned mobile users. How do you secure the mobile uses when they use cloud collaboration? Because this is really what uses expect, and they want How do you secure it? >> So be secured by by actually monitoring the data where it actually gravitates, and this is usually in the cloud. So we enforce the data that is in transit through, ah, proxies and gators towards the cloud from the endpoint devices, but also then looking by AP eyes in the cloud themselves to look for threats, data leakage and also sandbox. Certain activities that happened. There >> are the next talk talk I want to get into is the expansion to hybrid and multi cloud so that you guys do from a product standpoint, solution for your customers. But in general, this is in the industry conversation as well. How how do you look at this from a software standpoint? Because, you know, we've heard Pat Gelsinger of'em were talking about somewhere to find Data Center S d n. Everything's now software based. You talk about the premiere goes away. You guys were kind of bring up a different approaches. A software perimeter? Yeah, what is the challenge for expanding to multi cloud and hybrid cloud? >> So So the challenge for enterprise and customers we talked to is that they have to run their old business. Gardner once called it by motile business, and it's still adopting not one cloud, but we see in our surveys. And this is also what market research confirms is that customers end up with 2 to 3 loud vendors. So there were will be one or two platforms that will be the primary to their major majority of applications and data gravity. But they will end up and become much more flexible with have running AWS, the old Davis Center. But it was the G, C, P and Azure, or Ali Baba glowed even side by side, right tow cover the different speeds at what their own and the price runs. And >> so I gotta ask you about Cloud Needed was one of the things that you're bringing up that just jumps in my head. And when I got to ask, because this is what I see is a potential challenge. It might be a current challenges when you have kubernetes growing such a rapid rate. You see the level of service is coming online much higher rate. So okay, people, mobile users, they're using the drop boxes, the boxes and using all these FBI service's. But that's just those wraps. As a hundreds and thousands of micro service is being stood up and Tauron down in there, you guys are taking, I think, an approach of putting a perimeter software premieres around these kinds of things, but they get turned on enough. How do you know what's clean? It's all done automatically, so this is becoming a challenge. So is this what you guys mean when you say software perimeter that you guys could just put security around things at any time? Is that explain this? >> Yeah, So? So if you talk about the service match so really mashing cloudy but native functions, I think it's still in the face where it's, I would say, chaos chaotic when you have specific projects that are being ramped up them down. So we draw a perimeter in that specific contact. So let's say you have You're ramping up a lot off cloud a function AWS. We can build a pyramid around this kind off containment and look especially for threats in the activity locks off. The different component is containers, but from from a design perspective, this needs to be, uh, we need to think off the future because if you look at Mike soft on AWS strategy, those containers will eventually move Also back to the edge. Eso were in preparing that to support those models also cover. Bring these functions closer back again to the edge on We call that not any longer the when, ej but it will become a cloud at at actually. So it's not an extension of the land that comes to the data. It's actually the data and the applications coming back to the user and much closer. >> Yeah. I mean, in that case, you could define the on premises environment has an edge, big edge, because this is all about moving, were close and data around. This is what the new normal is. Yeah, So okay, I gotta ask the next question, which is okay, If that's true, that means that kubernetes becomes a critical part of all this. And containers. How do you guys play with that at all? >> So we play with us by by actually looking at data coming from that at the moment. We're looking at this from a from a data transit perspective. We But we will further Maur integrate into their eighties AP eyes and actually become part off the C I C D. Process that building then actually big become a security function in approval and rolling out a cannery to certain service mesh. And we can say, Well, this is safe for this is unsafe This is, I think, the eventual goal to get there. But But for now, it's It's really about tracking the locks of each of those containers and actually having a parent her and segmentation around this service mash cloud. So to say, >> I think you guys got a good thing going on when you talk about this new concept that's of softer to find perimeter. You can almost map that to anything you get. Really think everything has its own little perimeter workload. Could be moving around still in these three secure. So I gotta ask on the next talk Trek is this leads into hybrid cloud. This is the hottest topic. Hybrid cloud to me is the same as multi cloud. Just kind of get together a little bit different. But hybrid cloud means you're operating both on premises and in the cloud. This is becoming a channel most si si SOS Chief admission Security officers. I don't want to fork their teams and have multiple people coding different stacks. They don't want the vendor lock in, and so you're seeing a lot of people pulling back on premises building their own stacks, deploying in the cloud and having a seamless operation. What is your definition of hybrid? Where do you see hybrid going? And how important is it? Have a hybrid strategy. >> So I think the key successfactors of a hybrid strategy is that standards standardization is a big topic. So we think that a service platform that to secure that like the SD when secure service platform rebuilt, needs to be standardized on operational level, but also from a baseline security and detection level. And this means that if you run and create your own work, those on Prem you need to have the same security and standard security and deployment standard for the clout and have the seamless security primary perimeter and level off security no matter where these these deployments are. And the second factor of this is actually how do you ensure a secure data transfer between those different workloads? And this is where S T win comes into play, which acts as a fabric together with when backbone, where we connect all those pieces together in a secure fashion >> where it's great to have you on the Q and sharing your insight on the industry. Let's get into your company. Open systems. You guys provide an integrated solution for Dev Ops and Secure Service and Security Platform. Take a minute to talk about the innovations that you guys were doing because you guys talk a lot about Casby. Talk a lot about integrated esti when but first define what Casby is for. The audience doesn't know what Casby is. C. A S B. It's kicked around all of the security conscious of your new to security. It's an acronym that you should pay attention to so defined casby and talk about your solution. >> Eso casby isn't theory. Aviation means cloud access security we broker. So it's actually becoming this centralized orchestrator that that allows and defines access based on a trust level. So saying, um, first of all, it's between networks saying I have a mobile workforce accessing SAS or I s applications. Can't be it in the middle to provide security and visibility about Where's my data moving? Where's married? Where do I have exposure off off GDP, our compliance or P C. I or he power risks And where is it exposed to, Which is a big deal on it's kind of the lowest level to start with, But then it goes further by. You can use the Casby to actually pull in data that that is about I s were close to toe identified data that's being addressed and stored. So are there any incidentally, a shared data artifacts that are actually critical to the business? And are they shared with extra resource is and then going one step further, where we then have a complete zero trust access model where we say we know exactly who can talkto which application at any time on give access to. But as everything this needs to be is in embedded in an evolution >> and the benefit ultimately goes to the SAS applications toe, have security built in. >> That's the first thing that you need to tackle. Nowadays, it's get your sass, cloud security or policy enforced on, but without disrupting service on business on to actually empower business and not to block and keep out the business >> can make us the classic application developer challenge, which is? They love to co they love the build applications, and what cloud did with Dev Ops was abstracted away the infrastructure so that they didn't have to do all this configuration. Sister. Right? APs You guys air enabling that for security? >> Exactly. Yeah. So coming back to this multi protein product cloud would, which is not keeping up anymore with the current reality and needs of a business. So we took the approach and compared death ops with a great service platform. So we have engineers building the platform. That's Integrated Security Service Platform, which promotes Esti Wen managed Detection response and Caspi Service is in one on the one platform which is tightly integrated. But in the in the customer focus that we provide them on or Pecs model, which is pretty, very predictable, very transparent in their security posture. Make that a scalable platform to operate and expand their business on. >> And that's great. Congratulations. I wanna go back for the final point here to round up the interview for the I T. Folks watching or, um, folks who have to implement multi cloud and hybrid cloud they're sitting there could be a cloud architect that could be an I T. Operations or 90 pro. They think multi cloud this in hybrid club. This is the environment. They have to get their arms around. How? What >> should they >> be thinking about? Around multi cloud and hybrid cloud. What is it, really? What's the reality now? What >> should they be considering for evaluation? What are some of the key things that that should be on their mind when they're dealing with hybrid cloud and all the opportunity around it? >> So I think they're they're like, four key pieces. Oneness. Um, they think they still have to start to think strategic. So what? It's a platform and a partner That helps them to plan ahead for the next 3 to 5 years in a way that they can really focus on what their business needs are. This is the scalability aspect. Secondly, it's a do. We have a network on security, our architecture that allows me to grow confidently and go down different venues to to actually adopt multi clouds without worrying about the security implication behind it. Too much, uh, and to implement it. And third is have this baseline and have this standardized security posture around wherever the data is moving, being at Mobil's being it SAS or being on Prem and in clouds workloads, the fourth pieces again, reading, thinking off where did you spend most of my time? Where do I create? Create value by by defining this framework so it really can create a benefit and value for the enterprise? Because if you do it not right your not right. You will have a way. You will end up with a an architecture that will break the business and not accelerated. >> Or it's made head of product that open systems here inside the Cube studios. Um, great job. Must love your job. You got the keys. A lot of pressure. Security being a product. Head of product for security companies. A lot of pressure before we wrap up. Just give a quick plug for the company. You guys hiring you have a new office space here in Redwood City. Looks beautiful. Give a quick shared play for the company. >> Yeah. So open systems the great company to work with. We're expanding in the U. S. On also, Amy, uh, with all the work force. So we're hiring. So go on our website. We have a lot off open positions, exciting challenges in a growth or into workspace. Andi. Yeah. As you said, security at the moment, it's one of the hottest areas to be in, especially with all the fundamental changes happening in the enterprise and architecture. I d landscape. So yeah, >> and clouds securing specifically. Not just in point. The normal stuff that people used to classify as hot as hot as Hades could be right now. But thanks for coming on. Strong insights. I'm jumping with Cuba here in Palo Alto with more Morris Man is the head of product management for open systems. Thanks for watching.

>> Live from Las Vegas, it's theCUBE covering AWS re:Invent 2018. (techy music) Brought to you by Amazon Web Services, Intel, and their ecosystem partners. (techy music) >> Welcome back, everyone, live coverage here of AWS re:Invent 2018, I'm John Furrier with Dave Vellante. Two sets, three days of wall-to-wall coverage. Hundreds of videos, great content. Three-hour keynote from Andy Jassy, 52,000 people here. This is where the industry now is getting together to set the agenda for the future. It's cloud-based, it's on-premise, it's all cloud all the time, our next two guests are with Amazon. Dave McCann, who's with the marketplace, and Stefan Sigg, chief R&D officer at Software AG, great to see you. >> Good being back. >> Great to come back. >> Thank you for having me. >> So, I've got to say, you know, the customer dynamic that you guys have is pretty impressive, you guys are a customer. The value creation of the cloud is pretty amazing. What's your world like these days in terms of your market? You're in Europe, you've got thousands of customers, what's the update? >> Well, I mean, we're operating worldwide, US being the biggest market, so 70 countries we're in. From a customer perspective, all over the place with our labs, and obviously, I mean the cloud and the digitalization is a whole new ballgame, and we are... Just at the time, we are reinventing ourselves for maybe the third time in order to push, to help the customers to go that transition, and our middleware expertise and our expertise that we now newly have added to in terms of IoT is just amazingly how that momentum is showing. >> I'd like to get your analysis of Andy Jassy's keynote, and I'll throw one perspective at you. >> Yeah. >> besides the IoT awesomeness that the edge is now with satellites coming-- >> Yes. >> And unlimited connectivity in the future. >> Yes. >> But it kind of points out that this new kind of software developer, new personas-- >> Oh, yeah. >> The builder, the right tool for the right job. >> Yeah. >> There's a set of services now out there that can be merchandised and bought and sold. Marketplace, which you run, software design's changing, but also consumption upon the buying side's changing. What's your analysis to that? >> Well, for us it's just... It couldn't be better, because it's now, again, that software comes into enterprises. It has been pushed aside for many years because people would just implement standard software, would implement, you know, office software, and now all of a sudden, driven by the digital transformation and stuff like IoT, there's a demand for software, building software for their own needs, not just for the back office, but you know, equipping the products with sensors, with data, and enhanced software. So, that's exactly our play, helping those customers, those enterprises to just start their software where it's necessary, and we provide the platform getting them there. >> Yeah. >> So, Dave, Software AG's almost as old as I am. Right, mainframe, you went through the client server, you dealt with the desktop, and now the cloud era. How are you helping companies like Software AG maintain their relevance, keep their infrastructure modern? How does that all work, give us some insight on that. >> So, first of all, AWS broadly is obviously working with all the world's top software companies, and if you think of it, all the large enterprises in the world are moving their applications onto the cloud, and when if you think of the average enterprise has got 1,000 applications, those 1,000 applications are woven into a lot of third party software, so as our AWS customers move onto AWS, they want to bring their software with them, and clearly we work with companies like Software AG, and these guys are modernizing and rearchitecting their software, and the launch we just did today on container marketplace, so now we've launch marketplace for containers. It's a new way of packaging your software up in a microservices model, and Software AG has already refactored 10 of their product lines onto containers, so they're modernizing, our customers are modernizing, and we're working together. >> And so, Stefan, is it a case where you say to the customer, "Run it wherever you want it," or is it more aggressive, like, "Okay, we're moving "to the cloud, you're moving with us." How does it all work, what's the customer conversation like? >> Customer conversation is, you know, customers come and they already decided their pace of going into the cloud, their, you know, maturity level going into the cloud, and for the foreseeable future, there will be a hybrid world, there will be a hybrid world. Still some pieces on-premise, new things on the cloud, application integration within the cloud, application integration from the cloud to on-premise, device integration is coming up, the integration to edge use cases-- >> Yeah. >> Very much a big topic. So, it's a rebirth of our core technology that we are now seeing-- >> Yeah. >> And we are taking our customers with us, and they take us with them. >> You know, the thing that's interesting is that the whole software building market, development or builders, and right tool for the right job, needs to have a broad set of tools available, because if you go to an IoT edge application, for instance, right, that's a complete custom build, in a way, so you don't want to have it be a one-off, just have the tools available, then it's just how you build. >> Yeah, yeah. >> You build a unique solution for the unique use case for the unique workload, use the cloud as distribution, so you need a lot of services, so this is kind of the preferred model versus buying a general purpose application and stuffing it into a use case. (chuckling) >> Well, you've got to understand that when you go to the cloud you're going to redesign a lot of your applications. It's not a simple lift and shift. In some cases it's right new, and on some occasions the developers want to use the tools they love, so you know, you guys have got, what, 10,000 customers? >> Sure. >> Call it 10,000. Those 10,000 customers have all got skills and developers, so you've probably got a million developers that understand Software AG, and they're coming onto the cloud. They want to be familiar with what they're working with. >> Yep, yeah. >> So, what I want to give, and what AWS wants to give the developer, is a consumer experience that when the developer has a project they can find the software. >> Yeah. >> And so, what we want to do is we're publishing Software AG's products right in Marketplace, and you know, yesterday we announced that we now have 200,000 customers in AWS Marketplace. Two years ago I announced for the first time that we had 100,000, so we've doubled the number of customers using marketplace in two years, and the reason is that the developers are showing up and finding the software they want-- >> Yep. >> And the more software we add, the more developers come and use Marketplace. >> It's like going to Home Depot. I need a new tool. (chuckling) You know, I need a new service, hit the catalog. This is the preferred, and with containers and Kubernetes you're seeing that explosive integration happen. People are integrating faster now because of, say, containers and Kubernetes, and with more compute, it's only more goodness to accelerate the Kubernetes and containers, so that's got to be great glue for your business. >> Well, it is just the state of the art. I mean, this virtualization technology has evolved, and now it's there with Kubernetes and Docker and containers, so that's what customers even expect us doing, yeah, and then beyond that they expect us being present in marketplaces, yeah. Like, the AWS Marketplace is the place to be. >> Yeah, it's good for-- >> That's where people are looking for us, so we better be there. >> Containers are taking off for several reasons. You know, if you're a developer, one of the compelling things about containers is consistency of deployment. You can run Kubernetes on your laptop. You can run Kubernetes up on a server. You can run Kubernetes on the cloud. So, you can develop it on your laptop, provision up on the server, and then deploy on AWS, so that consistency is very compelling to the developer. What we're doing is by putting it in Marketplace we're making it really easy, because with ECS and EKS, whether it's the Docker container model, the Kubernetes Orchestrator, we allow the developer on AWS to be well-integrated into the AWS environment. >> So, add edge into that equation, and how does that consistency flow through? What's your edge strategy in terms of developing applications? >> Well, the edge strategy is clearly providing the... At the same time, the same way we provide the platform for our usual application development, there is a huge demand for edge development. >> Yeah. >> So, for example, we have a great customer out there in Germany. They're the world market leader for paint robots. >> Yeah. >> So, obviously if you want to maintain a paint robot, it's an edge thing, yeah, so we want to make sure that the data is close to the edge, is close to the device that it can monitor and do the recognition of failures. >> The thing I want to just add to that, that you mentioned about Kubernetes and the software deployment, is that when you got Lambda, you got these services that are so fast, you can do a lot with that, so as a service you can bring that together. So, the idea of throwing more compute at it, in hundreds of milliseconds you can wrap VMs around things, you can do cool things, so almost a change of buyer behavior is built into the development process. So, that's good for your business, it's good for your business, and companies are changing their business model. So, Cisco, for instance, did a deal with you guys. A couple weeks ago we covered it. They're using EKS for all the cloud stuff, so they have their stuff on their premise, so they go, "Hey, great!" >> Yeah, so containers as a next generation of deployment is one of your choices, right? You can go SAS, you can go serverless, you can go containers, and companies are going to have all three in the mix. All of the software companies that are going to be repackaging for containers, and the other thing that we've done with containers in Marketplace is we're actually metering by the second. A lot of containers run for a very short space of time. I don't know if you know this, but 50% of containers don't run for a week. You spin them up, you shut them down. You spin them up, you shut them down, and so the consumption of the software is moving much more into pay for how much you use. >> And you're granular. >> And we're granular, so we're going to meter by the second. The vendors are typically going to price monthly and annually, or hourly, depending on what the vendor choice is, and so we're going to make it easy for that to happen, and of course, the other thing we do is that by Software AG being in Marketplace it goes on the developer's bill, developer shows up with an account. The developer just gets the Software AG software and runs it, and what makes it really easy for Software AG is that developer has a contract with AWS, but they're now using Software AG's software. >> Well, congratulations, a great opportunity. By the way, I saw the announcement about having a marketplace for machine learning, too. A lot of things happening. >> Right. >> So, the machine learning marketplace, in a way, actually leverages the same capability as the container marketplace, because if you think of it, in machine learning we're packaging up the model, or the algorithm, in a Docker container. >> Yep. >> The difference, however, is that instead of rendering the container into ECS and EKS, we actually deploy the container right into the SageMaker console, so it's a different console, and the user over there is either a data scientist-- >> Yeah. >> Or a developer, but they're going to find that packaged in a container and provision it in SageMaker and then apply the model, and you're right, we announced today... Andy announced the marketplace with machine learning with over 200 different machine learning models. >> Yeah. >> So, we had 160 container packages and we had 200 machine learning models. So, now around the world developers suddenly have access to 300 new pieces of software that they didn't have yesterday. >> I love this market, web services. Going back to the old 2001 timeframe. It's now happening, service-oriented architectures are all happening, catalogs of services, it's what it is. It's being realized right now. >> It is. >> And it's impacting and the results are obvious. The business model evolution, opportunities, not a bad thing, marketplaces of the future. You're going to be all marketplace-driven. >> AWS Marketplace right now is probably the largest live, in production infrastructure library with third party software. >> Congratulations, Dave, nice to see the success. Great to hear about these success stories there, good job. >> And you know, ultimately we've got to remember that what we're delivering is a world class experience to the customer, but a marketplace only works if we have ISVs. >> Hm... >> Yeah. >> So, I want to thank Software AG, because now all of our customers have access to their software, thank you. >> Customers win. >> Thank you. >> Thanks very much. >> It's been a pleasure. >> It's a win-win, everyone wins with the cloud. That's the best part of co-creation and the cloud scale. I'm John Furrier with Dave Vellante. Stay with us, more coverage here, day two of AWS re:Invent after this short break. Stay with us. (techy music)

live from Las Vegas it's the cube covering service now knowledge 2018 brought to you by service now welcome back to the cubes live coverage of service now knowledge 18 here and Las Vegas Nevada I'm your host - Rebecca night along with my co-host Dave Volante we are joined by dr. Mateus Egelhoff he is the program director at Siemens AG thanks so much for coming on the problem yes great to see you again my friend veteran these two go way back they have a bromance brewing so Mateus at Siemens the now platform is really a key pillar of your digital transformation why is service integration so so it's such an important element of your vision of your strategy because service integration is really the place to be in the former days we concentrated to manage one service one provider but if you really want to integrate and be responsible end-to-end you really have to own the whole chain from the demand side to the supply side so you really have to span the whole value chain from the customer to the provider and back from the provider to the customer that's why it is so important to play the integrator role because if you own that whole value chain end-to-end you can optimize the value chain and also do some dramatic changes in that value change to kick out some of the providers that do not really add high value or you can optimize costs by combining some of the steps and that's why service integration is so key because then you have the whole end-to-end view and you gain the whole inside of that value chain and also the net the next topic I want to add is the typical service management topic is also changing over time because what to do with for example Microsoft Exchange Online you don't have to do much management on that one because that is used by millions of users so what to do actually and that's why it comes more important to have the overall view of the whole venue changer what if I could ask you as a seasoned ServiceNow practitioner you've seen a lot we were talking just kind of joking about sometimes tech company marketing is ahead of you know what they I can actually do service now obviously tremendous platform that makes it sound easy but it takes a lot of work to get there but once you get there you get a flywheel effect and you can add more and more because of the platform so talk a little bit about kind of where you started and how long it really took you to get to a point where you could really start driving major value for your organization so we we started our ServiceNow journey in January 2014 so roughly four years ago yeah and we started with the typical incident problem change service request portion but my goal was from the beginning to really have a high degree of automation and integration in that platform that's why we we set up the platform already in the integrated way of having not single processes single databases but rather having single source of record in the system and when we started of course we thought hey it's a great technology and it is a great technology it's a excellent tool but the challenge is not setting up the tool it is as Sean Donahoe said it's the change in the organization because by implementing such a huge tool with one process having it completely across all organizations in 149 countries with three hundred seventy seven thousand employees this is a scale where you need to have a focus on the change topic that they are really applying the process is because otherwise it's not of usage and this had a big impact on how we are providing the services because ServiceNow is more or less the window where it gets obvious how your services are looking like so it's not only about setting up ServiceNow you have to change the processes you have to change the organization you might simplify also the services they are quite a little bit too complicated to be handled in the portal and all that work has to be done in parallel and I always use the phrase there the dark side is coming up of an organization and I'm pretty sure each organization has a dark side of legacy system gaps in the process steps the data is not correct the data is not validated it is not one scene DP and all that stuff has to be pulled away connected otherwise you don't have the end-to-end chain you don't have the degree of automation that you want to leverage and this roughly took us two and a half years and and you knew that going in with ServiceNow kind of transparent or helpful in that or was it just gonna drop off the software and give us a call if you need help exactly we didn't you because otherwise we would have not started all those challenges and therefore ServiceNow was really helpful because there is out-of-the-box functionality that you can kick-start however if you want to leverage ServiceNow in that environment the out of box functionality is nice and a good starting point but you have to add some of the functionality like the integration layer is not there like data analytics not there yet so you have to add some of the topics but therefore it is good that ServiceNow was there that that's why we also procured licenses but on the other hand we engaged also professional services because we also wanted to make ServiceNow responsible for the implementation that this is really a lighthouse project also for ServiceNow and of course for us so it was a win-win so Evans now learned a lot and it was good to have them onboard and you're able to show quick enough value to get credibility in the organization to really fulfill your vision exactly so what we basically did we set up a road map based on savings because it's always easy to introduce a new tool a new portal a new process whatever always nice but when it comes to shutting down existing ones this is the difficult and nasty personnel but that's why I made a road map of clearly showing hey now we can shut down this portal now we can shut down this legacy tool and based on that the savings kicked in and the people really saw hey it works hey we really can shut down and get rid of some of the legacy dark side topic and then typically to a platform then the platform momentum starts where everybody wants to get on hey I have an additional provider I have initiative process I have additional services hey this country also wants to set em then the platform starts to grow and gain some momentum so that everybody gets up and this is also challenging then regarding the release how to handle all those demands I want to talk about data and because we just heard CJ Desai up there on the main stage preaching one thing but I know before the cameras are rolling yours you were telling us that you're actually doing a lot with the data that you're collecting so so talk about stop what it is you're doing it's because the collecting the data is the easy part in a lot of ways it's then figuring out okay what is the data telling us and then what do we do about it exactly so CJ in this main keynote mentioned that is not a good idea to pull out all the data outside of ServiceNow I'm agreeing but unfortunately only in two years or three years time when the intelligence is in service now that's why Siemens has decided to pull out really on a daily basis all the data from ServiceNow into a separate SQL database and then a first important step starts the qualification of the data is the data quality correct because the high degree of automation only works if the data is correct and of course if you wanted and display the data and do the analytics it's also key that the data is correct that's why we have established a data health - want to visualize is the data correct first step second one is then then we are displaying the data in tableau so with visualization layer doing the typical reports where you can slice down by division by country by service by cost cent or whatever the typical reporting but we are also doing that data and feeding it into for example Watson so we used Watson to see how intelligent he is so we gave Watson 1.3 million tickets and said hey Watson tell us what is exciting about 1.3 million tickets and that the first reaction was I don't understand because we have 5 languages a mix of languages Portuguese using Portuguese and English German and English and then Watson had some issues with understanding the tickets then we said ok then let's use just English portion 700,000 tickets and said hey Watson tell us now and he said issue ticket problems complained and whatnot and then I thought hey Watson you are telling me that those are tickets that is not the expectation I had based on what the Watson team is telling but to be fair to Watson that's not my point that I'm saying Watson is stupid I'm just saying 2 messages are important you really have to learn how to leverage that new technology and it really takes time so prepare your organization to apply those technology because also your organization needs a learning curve to apply that technology and the second example was with Asia so we gave or that the thesis was hey Asia can you tell us how to increase customer satisfaction and again we gave Asia with some nice mathematical formulas a lot of tickets and based on that model we learned what are the key success factors of satisfying a customer so it's of course how many times a ticket was routed how fast the ticket was picked up but we got really timestamps so we can also now adopt our SLA is to the providers to more satisfy the users and more excitingly based on four criterias we can now predict the satisfaction of the user so we can really say with 86% will that be rating between one and three what is not that good and if so this is now the next step we will feed that back into service now giving that ticket Aflac so the service desk agent can act on it and I think that is the exciting one not only collecting data learning out of it and then acting on it and now based on if a ticket is open we already can predict the customer satisfaction that is great providing guidance to the ServiceNow user so if I understand it correctly you're extracting data out of ServiceNow I think you've mentioned off-camera you bring some of that data into si P Hana yeah you mentioned your Watson tableau is the viz and you said Microsoft Azure exactly as well so like many big data problems you're solving it with a variety of tools that's challenging but you really have no choice is not one out-of-the-box solution is there nope well that's why we are now applying different technology to really learn what is in for us and quickly do is on POC check is it feasible is it a quick win or takes it longer or is the technology not that mature and then really follow up what is most promising is your expectation and desire that ServiceNow does sell all this in the platform for you and is that what you're pushing him to do I think the ratio which will get higher and higher what ServiceNow will be capable to do like the prediction of tickets and the route the automated routing that should be negative in ServiceNow but in regards to artificial intelligence I think there are other companies out there who are more at the front runner and really the lead us so I think it will be always a mixture out of ServiceNow but also pulling out some of the data to leverage other technology it's gonna be interesting to see what kind of merger and acquisition activity ServiceNow does certainly Mike Scarpelli and John Donahoe in the financial analysts meeting were hinting of acquisitions you would imagine they've done some in AI you would expect they do others I wonder if we could ask you about the climate in Germany with regard to machines replacing humans and cognitive functions obviously it's a very employee friendly environment what's the narrative like there what are you seeing yeah I think also big discussions in Germany about that digitalization is that disruptive to the job market and as I said with the example of Asia that is a core only artificial intelligent can do yeah no sense to use humans with a pocket calculator to do that doesn't make sense but on the other side I have also set up a team of 20 people who are doing let's say manual work they are monitoring the tickets for example three people and based on their experience and human factor to speak with the different resolve our groups applications they already reduced the ticket number they reduced the cycle time the number of the closing time was decreased by 20% so these are examples where you need humans because on the other side there are also humans and this optimization of looking at the data speaking with different people that have domain expertise this is really necessary where I see that humans are much more advanced than the machine learning so that's why I see balances of yes we are using Azure Watson and all those nice technologies but we are also ramping up people that really act on the data that they have at hand so there is less anxiety to this idea would you say exactly exactly so and that's why I am saying yes it will reduce some of the chops but hopefully the Nestea more administrative work and on the other hand it will create new opportunities especially in the integration layer where you need human intelligent and people who can act on and keep the ecosystem alive that is nothing a machine can do it is thanks so much for coming on the program it's always fun to have you on thank you we will have more from ServiceNow knowledge 18 of the cubes live coverage coming up just after this

(upbeat music) >> Hey everyone, Lisa Martin here with you on theCUBE Live from Mobile World Congress '23 in Barcelona. We're having a great day at the show. We hope you are too. I've got two guests here with me next. We're going to be talking about telco's 5G, all that exciting stuff. Please welcome Jason Inskeep, the AVP 5G, and Private 5G Center of Excellence at AT&T Business. And Doug Lieberman is here as well. Senior Director, Global Solutions Co-Creation Services at Dell Technologies. Guys, it's great to have you on the show, live from the show floor, talk to me about what's going on, how are you? >> Hey, thanks for having us on. It's a great show, I'm happy to be back here this year and really looking forward to the conversations that are going on and really continuing these partnerships that Dell has with companies like AT&T to truly drive the realities and the benefits of 5G. >> Absolutely, Doug, talk to me a little bit. You have an interesting title, Director of Global Solutions Co-Creation Services at Dell. Tell me a little bit about your role, what you're responsible for, and then Jason we'll have you do the same. >> Yeah, thanks for bringing that up. So, I have a very interesting role and a very exciting role at Dell because we have a unique organization that I run globally whose job it is, is to work with telcos to co-create services for enterprise and jointly go to market with those. So that basically take the combined power of AT&T and Dell and bring that to enterprise customers and other telcos so that enterprises can realize the value of, and truly leverage and harness the capabilities of 5G for private mobility and Mac and IOT and connected devices. >> Jason, let's bring you into the conversation now. You have an interesting title as well. You're with the 5G Center of Excellence at AT&T. Talk a little bit about your role and that COE. >> Yeah, thanks for having me again as well. The role with my team at AT&T is we're on the cutting edge. We're sitting in between our customers and our product houses that are working with folks at Dell, really helping putting our products together in the space of 5G. A lot of open opportunities here, a lot of things changing really fast. So my teams are off as well as putting this stuff in customers production sites it's also taking and capturing that information, working with my internal partners, both on the technology side, on the product side, and partners like Dell who are coming in helping us enabling those products and services that we can take and scale out through the different opportunities that we're seeing in this space. >> Let's double click on that partner angle, Jason, will stay with you. The 5G revolution, it's here, we are all excited about it. There's so much potential that will come from that. Let's talk about the AT&T/Dell partnership. How are you guys working together to deliver 5G globally? Jason, we'll start with you and then Doug will go to you. >> Yeah, at the core of it, when we started looking at 5G and seeing the changes that were happening, one of the biggest changes is it became software defined. So, the way we could deploy the hardware with the software becomes a whole new conversation. And what we saw coming out of that is it's not going to be a single winner and loser to really execute the way it's necessary for the experiences of tomorrow. It has to be an ecosystem that comes together. Dell creates a great opportunity for us from the hardware perspective to move those services around, to scale those services ultimately to all kinds of site types up to cities right down to small offices. And those different form factors that they bring with the software and the network pieces that we're adding on top of it help to streamline the flows and processes and really gets to that next generation that we see happening, which is this converged architecture. This meeting of network and application, creating a whole new skillset along with products. So we're at the very top we've got Dell/AT&T, at a partner level, it gets at a granular level too. The users and the developers underneath are starting to change as well, so very interesting dichotomy happening right now. >> Right, Doug, what's through Dell's lens? Tell us a little bit about the partnership and how you're working together to deliver 5G and really unlock its potential globally. >> Yeah, thank you, I'd love to bonus off of what Jason was saying, for Dell, what we look at is through the lens of an enterprise. An enterprise needs to execute their business function, their outcome, their mission that they need to operate. And so therefore they have workloads that they need to run. And 5G is an enabler for that technology, and there's lots of other enablers but the key piece is how can they get their business work done better, faster, cheaper, more efficiently, more securely? And the combination of AT&T and Dell truly is a combination that brings in a partnership that brings together a full breadth of those capabilities, with understanding what those enterprise workloads are and how they work and how an enterprise would leverage these capabilities. And then bonus on top of that and merge together with that the capabilities of AT&T. And when you look at 5G, there's a lot of people that talk about 5G being the enterprise G. And a lot of that is because of things that Jason mentioned. As we move to a disaggregated stack where you have software-defined aspects of it, and the ability in the underlying definition of what 5G in the specifications to allow much more customization. It means that enterprises now cannot just take connectivity as it is and use it however it comes but actually work with a telco and work with Dell to customize that connectivity in a way that better meets their requirements. Whether that be with slicing or private mobility or roaming between private and the public network and things like profiles and being able to have different views of how different users and devices connect to that network are all key in truly harnessing the power of that connectivity to have always on, always connected, always integrated systems from the edge, the core, to the cloud. >> Always on, always connected. That's what we all expect these days. Wherever we are in the world, whatever we're trying to do. But to be able to take advantage of all that 5G offers for all of us, telcos have to create infrastructures that can support it, let's double click guys on the infrastructure that Dell and AT&T have put in place to enable this. Jason, I want to get your perspective first and then Doug will go to you. >> Yeah, I mean, it's foundational, the things that we're trying to do and build out here and there's a lot of complexity in it now that we didn't have before because of the flexibility in it. It's one of those things like the good news in software is you can do whatever you want. The bad news in software is you can do whatever you want. Once you have that foundation there though in terms of infrastructure, which for us is really air to glass. Fiber through the spectrum on top. But underneath of that, we have the servers, we have that infrastructure where those fibers come together where that air meets the radios and so forth. And we've got to have that great foundation. So working with Dell and getting those spaces built together preps the area as needed so that there's additional place now for compute and scale at that new converged meet-me point. And that's going to be the opportunity that we're trying to think about really to get that foundation in a way that maximizes capacity and maximizes control for the customers and enterprises in particular. And more importantly, maximizes the time horizon. Because if you're putting in a foundation like this, you're not looking at two to three years. You're trying to skate beyond, skate where the puck is going, look at five, 10 years out, set that foundation. And that's what we're trying to look at with Dell. What can our network do already? Where can we push it? In return, they're going to build their solutions to help maximize that potential. >> From an infrastructure perspective, Doug, I want to understand really where Dell is really shining there but also what are some of the differentiators that Dell brings to this foundational infrastructure that to your point, is built for scale? >> Yeah, so it really all comes down to as we start to see this transition that's been happening for years, but it's accelerating because of always-connected devices and everything connected and the great proliferation of data at the edge. As we move assets from the data center and out to the edge we introduce new challenges that have to be overcome. You have things like security, automation, infrastructure cost, maintenance, day-one operations, day-two operations, all of these things are new complexities which enterprises want to enable their workloads, enable the outcomes that they want to generate. But they need to make sure that they're not taking a step backwards when it comes to things like regulations. In Europe, you've got GDPR, and in the US you've got different security regulations. No one wants to be the next front page headline about their company being attacked and having a ransomware attack. And so as we spread out these assets, what Dell is here to do is to work with AT&T and enable enterprises to effectively build their virtual enterprise around the world where those assets, whether they're at the edge or the core or in the cloud, are all managed with the same profiles and the same security features and the same automation that they have in a core data center. So my ability to deploy an edge cloud so that I can leverage AT&T's network and have end-user devices do things like gaming or connect to video services or get directed retail advertising to you are not basically introducing new vectors for security vulnerabilities into that network. And so Dell has worked really hard and is a leader in the industry in providing automation and lower cost of ownership and security for those solutions. So it's not just about putting a server out there but it's about putting an infrastructure and a cloud that is connected by AT&T's backbone and to a central core of automation management and orchestration capabilities so that I can leverage those assets securely and efficiently. >> That security element that you bring up, Doug, is so incredibly critical. We talk about it at every event, we talk about it every day. We've seen such dramatic changes in the threat landscape in the last couple of years with covid and things like that. So that security element isn't trivial, it's essential for every type of enterprise regardless of where they are. I want to talk a little bit now about best practices. And Doug, go back to you, looking at what AT&T is achieving, the 5G COE, what you're doing with Dell. From your lens and your experiences, what are some of the best practices for telcos deploying secured network and connectivity at the edge? >> Yeah, well, I think the first one is that automation and that orchestration, right? The answer is that you cannot have snowflakes at every single ag point. You need to make sure that those infrastructures are consistent and compliant with the integrations and with the policies that have been set across the network. The second thing is that you want to make sure that the connectivity is monitored and metered and managed so that we know whether, for example that endpoint is there and it's not there, if it goes offline. And ensuring the end-user experience is consistent throughout. And so what we are seeing is that it's really important that we provide an implementation where the enterprise can get a consistent and a predictable outcome for what they're trying to accomplish. What they don't want to do, what enterprises hate and is really bad for them is when they provide an inconsistent or inappropriate results to their users, to their customer base. So if your website goes offline or you're a gaming platform, if people can't get to your game you're going to lose customers, you're going to lose business you're going to have people lose faith in your network. And so our partnership with AT&T and with other telcos is about ensuring that we have all those aspects covered, day zero, day one, and day two, as well as the security aspects. And that back haul is an essential piece of that because as we get more and more devices and more and more edge devices set up, there's more sprawl. And so the complexity goes up substantially, but what really wins is when you can take that complexity and use it to your advantage and be able to manage and deploy those systems as though they were all within your virtual enterprise. >> Using complexity to your advantage. That's an interesting one, Doug, that you're bringing up. Jason, I want to know, what does that mean for you and how is AT&T leveraging complexity to its advantage for its customers all over the globe? >> You know, first thing is if you're thinking about, we're a network company we're not just a 5G company, so we're wireline, we're wireless, we're global in terms of the amount of fiber we have in the ground, the amount of in the US, domestic sailor deployments, our investments in FirstNet, is our first responder network here in the US. So we have a big portfolio inclusive of IOT. That is a global brand as well. That, if you look at it through the outside lens, that's super complex, all over the planet. So when we're talking to our customers now in this new world, which is very much, "Hey, you can do these things on your own." We go back and the bigger, obviously have the products, and the network and the tech but now that customers can take advantage of it and take things that Dell have rolled out, they need that new new age expertise. You also got the Dell expertise of building these platforms from maybe a software level, from an orchestration level, those kind of things. And at the edge that's creating a new type of person and a new type of workflow, a new type of way to respond and work. So that combination of those two is going to be that new skillset. It's in small pockets now, it's growing in how that looks because it's a little combination of both the app developer and the network developer, that's coming together. Our footprint and in terms of what we provide in there is not just 5G, it's 5G, it's fiber, it's all of those pieces together. And that's what's going to super enable that experience that Doug talked about when you're thinking about gaming or transportation, it's not just the network performance, it's the roundtrip, so we're really trying to focus on that and educate our customers in that way with the expertise that we bring over years and years of building these things. >> And if I could just jump in there. I'd like to just emphasize something Jason just said. When we look at workloads at the edge, very rarely are those workloads uniquely just an edge workload, there are components. The example I like to use is video surveillance. If you are a big box store and you have video surveillance inside your store, there is a set of workloads and outcomes you need for immediate response at that edge. You want to know if there's a safety hazard, if there is a theft or those things. Those things need to be processed real time in the store before the thief leaves the store. But then there's a set of connectivity as well where you want to process that data up in the cloud to get long-term analytics and data off of that information. What's my average store density on a Thursday afternoon in November when it's 20 degrees out. Because that would drive how many employees I have, how much inventory I carry, et cetera. And that combination is a factor that drives all the different aspects of AT&T's network. We need the connectivity in the store for the practicability and the spectrum for the cameras that talk to a central server. We need the high-speed backup and throughput in order to provide cyber recovery as well as point-of-sales services so that they can do credit card transactions flawlessly, which is using a lot of wireline services for AT&T. And together with their cloud and their other capabilities, an enterprise needs all those different aspects to work, both the edge, the core and the cloud coming together to form an outcome from one piece of input. So that one piece of input, that video stream is used in multiple different ways and because of that, that network that AT&T brings can support the end-to-end outcome and use cases for that implementation, as an example. >> That end-to-end roundtrip that you guys talked about is essential for every type of enterprise. A lot of great work that Dell and AT&T are doing together to really enable enterprises to really capitalize on all that the new technology that 5G has the potential to deliver. So I got to wrap things up, Jason, with you. From a business-customer perspective, what's next for AT&T? What can those business customers expect? >> Just continued to scaling because you're looking at a space that's evolving rapidly. It's evolving rapidly, there's a lot of opportunity. You look at the private wireless space in particular, it's nascent, but growing rapidly with the customers having their ability to do this on their own. So for us, and really where we're starting to think now is we're seeing the things move from POC, starting to move to production, customers are starting to think about what's next. For us, we're trying to skate ahead of that knowing how we built our own networks, knowing how we engaged in our own partnerships like with Dell and trying to bring that expertise back to the customer, because it isn't cookie cutter anymore. There's a lot of flexibility and each input creates a different output. So it's up to us to at least help them balance that. Define what I like to affectionately call, "Find their Goldilocks." What is that just right for them? >> Great point, Jason, it is no longer a cookie cutter. Cookie cutter isn't going to cut it. Jason, Doug, thank you so much for joining me on theCUBE today from Mobile World Congress in Barcelona. We appreciate thank you all of your insights. Sounds like some great work that AT&T and Dell are doing together. Enterprises have a lot to look forward to. Thank you again for your time. >> Thank you very much, >> Thank you. >> Looking forward to seeing you at the show. >> I'm Lisa Martin from theCUBE at Mobile World Congress '23 in Barcelona. Thanks for watching. (upbeat music)

(upbeat music) >> Hi everyone. Welcome back to this Cube conversation here in Palo Alto, California. I'm John Furrier, host of "theCUBE." Got a great conversation around Cloud Native, Cloud Native Journey, how enterprises are looking at Cloud Native and putting it all together. And it comes down to operations, developer productivity, and security. It's the hottest topic in technology. We got Chris Jones here in the studio, director of Product Management for Platform9. Chris, thanks for coming in. >> Hey, thanks. >> So when we always chat about, when we're at KubeCon. KubeConEU is coming up and in a few, in a few months, the number one conversation is developer productivity. And the developers are driving all the standards. It's interesting to see how they just throw everything out there and whatever gets adopted ends up becoming the standard, not the old school way of kind of getting stuff done. So that's cool. Security Kubernetes and Containers are all kind of now that next level. So you're starting to see the early adopters moving to the mainstream. Enterprises, a variety of different approaches. You guys are at the center of this. We've had a couple conversations with your CEO and your tech team over there. What are you seeing? You're building the products. What's the core product focus right now for Platform9? What are you guys aiming for? >> The core is that blend of enabling your infrastructure and PlatformOps or DevOps teams to be able to go fast and run in a stable environment, but at the same time enable developers. We don't want people going back to what I've been calling Shadow IT 2.0. It's, hey, I've been told to do something. I kicked off this Container initiative. I need to run my software somewhere. I'm just going to go figure it out. We want to keep those people productive. At the same time we want to enable velocity for our operations teams, be it PlatformOps or DevOps. >> Take us through in your mind and how you see the industry rolling out this Cloud Native journey. Where do you see customers out there? Because DevOps have been around, DevSecOps is rocking, you're seeing AI, hot trend now. Developers are still in charge. Is there a change to the infrastructure of how developers get their coding done and the infrastructure, setting up the DevOps is key, but when you add the Cloud Native journey for an enterprise, what changes? What is the, what is the, I guess what is the Cloud Native journey for an enterprise these days? >> The Cloud Native journey or the change? When- >> Let's start with the, let's start with what they want to do. What's the goal and then how does that happen? >> I think the goal is that promise land. Increased resiliency, better scalability, and overall reduced costs. I've gone from physical to virtual that gave me a higher level of density, packing of resources. I'm moving to Containers. I'm removing that OS layer again. I'm getting a better density again, but all of a sudden I'm running Kubernetes. What does that, what does that fundamentally do to my operations? Does it magically give me scalability and resiliency? Or do I need to change what I'm running and how it's running so it fits that infrastructure? And that's the reality, is you can't just take a Container and drop it into Kubernetes and say, hey, I'm now Cloud Native. I've got reduced cost, or I've got better resiliency. There's things that your engineering teams need to do to make sure that application is a Cloud Native. And then there's what I think is one of the largest shifts of virtual machines to containers. When I was in the world of application performance monitoring, we would see customers saying, well, my engineering team have this Java app, and they said it needs a VM with 12 gig of RAM and eight cores, and that's what we gave it. But it's running slow. I'm working with the application team and you can see it's running slow. And they're like, well, it's got all of its resources. One of those nice features of virtualization is over provisioning. So the infrastructure team would say, well, we gave it, we gave it all a RAM it needed. And what's wrong with that being over provisioned? It's like, well, Java expects that RAM to be there. Now all of a sudden, when you move to the world of containers, what we've got is that's not a set resource limit, really is like it used to be in a VM, right? When you set it for a container, your application teams really need to be paying attention to your resource limits and constraints within the world of Kubernetes. So instead of just being able to say, hey, I'm throwing over the fence and now it's just going to run on a VM, and that VMs got everything it needs. It's now really running on more, much more of a shared infrastructure where limits and constraints are going to impact the neighbors. They are going to impact who's making that decision around resourcing. Because that Kubernetes concept of over provisioning and the virtualization concept of over provisioning are not the same. So when I look at this problem, it's like, well, what changed? Well, I'll do my scale tests as an application developer and tester, and I'd see what resources it needs. I asked for that in the VM, that sets the high watermark, job's done. Well, Kubernetes, it's no longer a VM, it's a Kubernetes manifest. And well, who owns that? Who's writing it? Who's setting those limits? To me, that should be the application team. But then when it goes into operations world, they're like, well, that's now us. Can we change those? So it's that amalgamation of the two that is saying, I'm a developer. I used to pay attention, but now I need to pay attention. And an infrastructure person saying, I used to just give 'em what they wanted, but now I really need to know what they've wanted, because it's going to potentially have a catastrophic impact on what I'm running. >> So what's the impact for the developer? Because, infrastructure's code is what everybody wants. The developer just wants to get the code going and they got to pay attention to all these things, or don't they? Is that where you guys come in? How do you guys see the problem? Actually scope the problem that you guys solve? 'Cause I think you're getting at I think the core issue here, which is, I've got Kubernetes, I've got containers, I've got developer productivity that I want to focus on. What's the problem that you guys solve? >> Platform operation teams that are adopting Cloud Native in their environment, they've got that steep learning curve of Kubernetes plus this fundamental change of how an app runs. What we're doing is taking away the burden of needing to operate and run Kubernetes and giving them the choice of the flexibility of infrastructure and location. Be that an air gap environment like a, let's say a telco provider that needs to run a containerized network function and containerized workloads for 5G. That's one thing that we can deploy and achieve in a completely inaccessible environment all the way through to Platform9 running traditionally as SaaS, as we were born, that's remotely managing and controlling your Kubernetes environments on-premise AWS. That hybrid cloud experience that could be also Bare Metal, but it's our platform running your environments with our support there, 24 by seven, that's proactively reaching out. So it's removing a lot of that burden and the complications that come along with operating the environment and standing it up, which means all of a sudden your DevOps and platform operations teams can go and work with your engineers and application developers and say, hey, let's get, let's focus on the stuff that, that we need to be focused on, which is running our business and providing a service to our customers. Not figuring out how to upgrade a Kubernetes cluster, add new nodes, and configure all of the low level. >> I mean there are, that's operations that just needs to work. And sounds like as they get into the Cloud Native kind of ops, there's a lot of stuff that kind of goes wrong. Or you go, oops, what do we buy into? Because the CIOs, let's go, let's go Cloud Native. We want to, we got to get set up for the future. We're going to be Cloud Native, not just lift and shift and we're going to actually build it out right. Okay, that sounds good. And when we have to actually get done. >> Chris: Yeah. >> You got to spin things up and stand up the infrastructure. What specifically use case do you guys see that emerges for Platform9 when people call you up and you go talk to customers and prospects? What's the one thing or use case or cases that you guys see that you guys solve the best? >> So I think one of the, one of the, I guess new use cases that are coming up now, everyone's talking about economic pressures. I think the, the tap blows open, just get it done. CIO is saying let's modernize, let's use the cloud. Now all of a sudden they're recognizing, well wait, we're spending a lot of money now. We've opened that tap all the way, what do we do? So now they're looking at ways to control that spend. So we're seeing that as a big emerging trend. What we're also sort of seeing is people looking at their data centers and saying, well, I've got this huge legacy environment that's running a hypervisor. It's running VMs. Can we still actually do what we need to do? Can we modernize? Can we start this Cloud Native journey without leaving our data centers, our co-locations? Or if I do want to reduce costs, is that that thing that says maybe I'm repatriating or doing a reverse migration? Do I have to go back to my data center or are there other alternatives? And we're seeing that trend a lot. And our roadmap and what we have in the product today was specifically built to handle those, those occurrences. So we brought in KubeVirt in terms of virtualization. We have a long legacy doing OpenStack and private clouds. And we've worked with a lot of those users and customers that we have and asked the questions, what's important? And today, when we look at the world of Cloud Native, you can run virtualization within Kubernetes. So you can, instead of running two separate platforms, you can have one. So all of a sudden, if you're looking to modernize, you can start on that new infrastructure stack that can run anywhere, Kubernetes, and you can start bringing VMs over there as you are containerizing at the same time. So now you can keep your application operations in one environment. And this also helps if you're trying to reduce costs. If you really are saying, we put that Dev environment in AWS, we've got a huge amount of velocity out of it now, can we do that elsewhere? Is there a co-location we can go to? Is there a provider that we can go to where we can run that infrastructure or run the Kubernetes, but not have to run the infrastructure? >> It's going to be interesting too, when you see the Edge come online, you start, we've got Mobile World Congress coming up, KubeCon events we're going to be at, the conversation is not just about public cloud. And you guys obviously solve a lot of do-it-yourself implementation hassles that emerge when people try to kind of stand up their own environment. And we hear from developers consistency between code, managing new updates, making sure everything is all solid so they can go fast. That's the goal. And that, and then people can get standardized on that. But as you get public cloud and do it yourself, kind of brings up like, okay, there's some gaps there as the architecture changes to be more distributed computing, Edge, on-premises cloud, it's cloud operations. So that's cool for DevOps and Cloud Native. How do you guys differentiate from say, some the public cloud opportunities and the folks who are doing it themselves? How do you guys fit in that world and what's the pitch or what's the story? >> The fit that we look at is that third alternative. Let's get your team focused on what's high value to your business and let us deliver that public cloud experience on your infrastructure or in the public cloud, which gives you that ability to still be flexible if you want to make choices to run consistently for your developers in two different locations. So as I touched on earlier, instead of saying go figure out Kubernetes, how do you upgrade a hundred worker nodes in place upgrade. We've solved that problem. That's what we do every single day of the week. Don't go and try to figure out how to upgrade a cluster and then upgrade all of the, what I call Kubernetes friends, your core DNSs, your metrics server, your Kubernetes dashboard. These are all things that we package, we test, we version. So when you click upgrade, we've already handled that entire process. So it's saying don't have your team focused on that lower level piece of work. Get them focused on what is important, which is your business services. >> Yeah, the infrastructure and getting that stood up. I mean, I think the thing that's interesting, if you look at the market right now, you mentioned cost savings and recovery, obviously kind of a recession. I mean, people are tightening their belts for sure. I don't think the digital transformation and Cloud Native spend is going to plummet. It's going to probably be on hold and be squeezed a little bit. But to your point, people are refactoring looking at how to get the best out of what they got. It's not just open the tap of spend the cash like it used to be. Yeah, a couple months, even a couple years ago. So okay, I get that. But then you look at the what's coming, AI. You're seeing all the new data infrastructure that's coming. The containers, Kubernetes stuff, got to get stood up pretty quickly and it's got to be reliable. So to your point, the teams need to get done with this and move on to the next thing. >> Chris: Yeah, yeah, yeah. >> 'Cause there's more coming. I mean, there's a lot coming for the apps that are building in Data Native, AI-Native, Cloud Native. So it seems that this Kubernetes thing needs to get solved. Is that kind of what you guys are focused on right now? >> So, I mean to use a customer, we have a customer that's in AI/ML and they run their platform at customer sites and that's hardware bound. You can't run AI machine learning on anything anywhere. Well, with Platform9 they can. So we're enabling them to deliver services into their customers that's running their AI/ML platform in their customer's data centers anywhere in the world on hardware that is purpose-built for running that workload. They're not Kubernetes experts. That's what we are. We're bringing them that ability to focus on what's important and just delivering their business services whilst they're enabling our team. And our 24 by seven proactive management are always on assurance to keep that up and running for them. So when something goes bump at the night at 2:00am, our guys get woken up. They're the ones that are reaching out to the customer saying, your environments have a problem, we're taking these actions to fix it. Obviously sometimes, especially if it is running on Bare Metal, there's things you can't do remotely. So you might need someone to go and do that. But even when that happens, you're not by yourself. You're not sitting there like I did when I worked for a bank in one of my first jobs, three o'clock in the morning saying, wow, our end of day processing is stuck. Who else am I waking up? Right? >> Exactly, yeah. Got to get that cash going. But this is a great use case. I want to get to the customer. What do some of the successful customers say to you for the folks watching that aren't yet a customer of Platform9, what are some of the accolades and comments or anecdotes that you guys hear from customers that you have? >> It just works, which I think is probably one of the best ones you can get. Customers coming back and being able to show to their business that they've delivered growth, like business growth and productivity growth and keeping their organization size the same. So we started on our containerization journey. We went to Kubernetes. We've deployed all these new workloads and our operations team is still six people. We're doing way more with growth less, and I think that's also talking to the strength that we're bringing, 'cause we're, we're augmenting that team. They're spending less time on the really low level stuff and automating a lot of the growth activity that's involved. So when it comes to being able to grow their business, they can just focus on that, not- >> Well you guys do the heavy lifting, keep on top of the Kubernetes, make sure that all the versions are all done. Everything's stable and consistent so they can go on and do the build out and provide their services. That seems to be what you guys are best at. >> Correct, correct. >> And so what's on the roadmap? You have the product, direct product management, you get the keys to the kingdom. What is, what is the focus? What's your focus right now? Obviously Kubernetes is growing up, Containers. We've been hearing a lot at the last KubeCon about the security containers is getting better. You've seen verification, a lot more standards around some things. What are you focused on right now for at a product over there? >> Edge is a really big focus for us. And I think in Edge you can look at it in two ways. The mantra that I drive is Edge must be remote. If you can't do something remotely at the Edge, you are using a human being, that's not Edge. Our Edge management capabilities and being in the market for over two years are a hundred percent remote. You want to stand up a store, you just ship the server in there, it gets racked, the rest of it's remote. Imagine a store manager in, I don't know, KFC, just plugging in the server, putting in the ethernet cable, pressing the power button. The rest of all that provisioning for that Cloud Native stack, Kubernetes, KubeVirt for virtualization is done remotely. So we're continuing to focus on that. The next piece that is related to that is allowing people to run Platform9 SaaS in their data centers. So we do ag app today and we've had a really strong focus on telecommunications and the containerized network functions that come along with that. So this next piece is saying, we're bringing what we run as SaaS into your data center, so then you can run it. 'Cause there are many people out there that are saying, we want these capabilities and we want everything that the Platform9 control plane brings and simplifies. But unfortunately, regulatory compliance reasons means that we can't leverage SaaS. So they might be using a cloud, but they're saying that's still our infrastructure. We're still closed that network down, or they're still on-prem. So they're two big priorities for us this year. And that on-premise experiences is paramount, even to the point that we will be delivering a way that when you run an on-premise, you can still say, wait a second, well I can send outbound alerts to Platform9. So their support team can still be proactively helping me as much as they could, even though I'm running Platform9s control plane. So it's sort of giving that blend of two experiences. They're big, they're big priorities. And the third pillar is all around virtualization. It's saying if you have economic pressures, then I think it's important to look at what you're spending today and realistically say, can that be reduced? And I think hypervisors and virtualization is something that should be looked at, because if you can actually reduce that spend, you can bring in some modernization at the same time. Let's take some of those nos that exist that are two years into their five year hardware life cycle. Let's turn that into a Cloud Native environment, which is enabling your modernization in place. It's giving your engineers and application developers the new toys, the new experiences, and then you can start running some of those virtualized workloads with KubeVirt, there. So you're reducing cost and you're modernizing at the same time with your existing infrastructure. >> You know Chris, the topic of this content series that we're doing with you guys is finding the right path, trusting the right path to Cloud Native. What does that mean? I mean, if you had to kind of summarize that phrase, trusting the right path to Cloud Native, what does that mean? It mean in terms of architecture, is it deployment? Is it operations? What's the underlying main theme of that quote? What's the, what's? How would you talk to a customer and say, what does that mean if someone said, "Hey, what does that right path mean?" >> I think the right path means focusing on what you should be focusing on. I know I've said it a hundred times, but if your entire operations team is trying to figure out the nuts and bolts of Kubernetes and getting three months into a journey and discovering, ah, I need Metrics Server to make something function. I want to use Horizontal Pod Autoscaler or Vertical Pod Autoscaler and I need this other thing, now I need to manage that. That's not the right path. That's literally learning what other people have been learning for the last five, seven years that have been focused on Kubernetes solely. So the why- >> There's been a lot of grind. People have been grinding it out. I mean, that's what you're talking about here. They've been standing up the, when Kubernetes started, it was all the promise. >> Chris: Yep. >> And essentially manually kind of getting in in the weeds and configuring it. Now it's matured up. They want stability. >> Chris: Yeah. >> Not everyone can get down and dirty with Kubernetes. It's not something that people want to generally do unless you're totally into it, right? Like I mean, I mean ops teams, I mean, yeah. You know what I mean? It's not like it's heavy lifting. Yeah, it's important. Just got to get it going. >> Yeah, I mean if you're deploying with Platform9, your Ops teams can tinker to their hearts content. We're completely compliant upstream Kubernetes. You can go and change an API server flag, let's go and mess with the scheduler, because we want to. You can still do that, but don't, don't have your team investing in all this time to figure it out. It's been figured out. >> John: Got it. >> Get them focused on enabling velocity for your business. >> So it's not build, but run. >> Chris: Correct? >> Or run Kubernetes, not necessarily figure out how to kind of get it all, consume it out. >> You know we've talked to a lot of customers out there that are saying, "I want to be able to deliver a service to my users." Our response is, "Cool, let us run it. You consume it, therefore deliver it." And we're solving that in one hit versus figuring out how to first run it, then operate it, then turn that into a consumable service. >> So the alternative Platform9 is what? They got to do it themselves or use the Cloud or what's the, what's the alternative for the customer for not using Platform9? Hiring more people to kind of work on it? What's the? >> People, building that kind of PaaS experience? Something that I've been very passionate about for the past year is looking at that world of sort of GitOps and what that means. And if you go out there and you sort of start asking the question what's happening? Just generally with Kubernetes as well and GitOps in that scope, then you'll hear some people saying, well, I'm making it PaaS, because Kubernetes is too complicated for my developers and we need to give them something. There's some great material out there from the likes of Intuit and Adobe where for two big contributors to Argo and the Argo projects, they almost have, well they do have, different experiences. One is saying, we went down the PaaS route and it failed. The other one is saying, well we've built a really stable PaaS and it's working. What are they trying to do? They're trying to deliver an outcome to make it easy to use and consume Kubernetes. So you could go out there and say, hey, I'm going to build a Kubernetes cluster. Sounds like Argo CD is a great way to expose that to my developers so they can use Kubernetes without having to use Kubernetes and start automating things. That is an approach, but you're going to be going completely open source and you're going to have to bring in all the individual components, or you could just lay that, lay it down, and consume it as a service and not have to- >> And mentioned to it. They were the ones who kind of brought that into the open. >> They did. Inuit is the primary contributor to the Argo set of products. >> How has that been received in the market? I mean, they had the event at the Computer History Museum last fall. What's the momentum there? What's the big takeaway from that project? >> Growth. To me, growth. I mean go and track the stars on that one. It's just, it's growth. It's unlocking machine learning. Argo workflows can do more than just make things happen. Argo CD I think the approach they're taking is, hey let's make this simple to use, which I think can be lost. And I think credit where credit's due, they're really pushing to bring in a lot of capabilities to make it easier to work with applications and microservices on Kubernetes. It's not just that, hey, here's a GitOps tool. It can take something from a Git repo and deploy it and maybe prioritize it and help you scale your operations from that perspective. It's taking a step back and saying, well how did we get to production in the first place? And what can be done down there to help as well? I think it's growth expansion of features. They had a huge release just come out in, I think it was 2.6, that brought in things that as a product manager that I don't often look at like really deep technical things and say wow, that's powerful. But they have, they've got some great features in that release that really do solve real problems. >> And as the product, as the product person, who's the target buyer for you? Who's the customer? Who's making that? And you got decision maker, influencer, and recommender. Take us through the customer persona for you guys. >> So that Platform Ops, DevOps space, right, the people that need to be delivering Containers as a service out to their organization. But then it's also important to say, well who else are our primary users? And that's developers, engineers, right? They shouldn't have to say, oh well I have access to a Kubernetes cluster. Do I have to use kubectl or do I need to go find some other tool? No, they can just log to Platform9. It's integrated with your enterprise id. >> They're the end customer at the end of the day, they're the user. >> Yeah, yeah. They can log in. And they can see the clusters you've given them access to as a Platform Ops Administrator. >> So job well done for you guys. And your mind is the developers are moving 'em fast, coding and happy. >> Chris: Yeah, yeah. >> And and from a customer standpoint, you reduce the maintenance cost, because you keep the Ops smoother, so you got efficiency and maintenance costs kind of reduced or is that kind of the benefits? >> Yeah, yep, yeah. And at two o'clock in the morning when things go inevitably wrong, they're not there by themselves, and we're proactively working with them. >> And that's the uptime issue. >> That is the uptime issue. And Cloud doesn't solve that, right? Everyone experienced that Clouds can go down, entire regions can go offline. That's happened to all Cloud providers. And what do you do then? Kubernetes isn't your recovery plan. It's part of it, right, but it's that piece. >> You know Chris, to wrap up this interview, I will say that "theCUBE" is 12 years old now. We've been to OpenStack early days. We had you guys on when we were covering OpenStack and now Cloud has just been booming. You got AI around the corner, AI Ops, now you got all this new data infrastructure, it's just amazing Cloud growth, Cloud Native, Security Native, Cloud Native, Data Native, AI Native. It's going to be all, this is the new app environment, but there's also existing infrastructure. So going back to OpenStack, rolling our own cloud, building your own cloud, building infrastructure cloud, in a cloud way, is what the pioneers have done. I mean this is what we're at. Now we're at this scale next level, abstracted away and make it operational. It seems to be the key focus. We look at CNCF at KubeCon and what they're doing with the cloud SecurityCon, it's all about operations. >> Chris: Yep, right. >> Ops and you know, that's going to sound counterintuitive 'cause it's a developer open source environment, but you're starting to see that Ops focus in a good way. >> Chris: Yeah, yeah, yeah. >> Infrastructure as code way. >> Chris: Yep. >> What's your reaction to that? How would you summarize where we are in the industry relative to, am I getting, am I getting it right there? Is that the right view? What am I missing? What's the current state of the next level, NextGen infrastructure? >> It's a good question. When I think back to sort of late 2019, I sort of had this aha moment as I saw what really truly is delivering infrastructure as code happening at Platform9. There's an open source project Ironic, which is now also available within Kubernetes that is Metal Kubed that automates Bare Metal as code, which means you can go from an empty server, lay down your operating system, lay down Kubernetes, and you've just done everything delivered to your customer as code with a Cloud Native platform. That to me was sort of the biggest realization that I had as I was moving into this industry was, wait, it's there. This can be done. And the evolution of tooling and operations is getting to the point where that can be achieved and it's focused on by a number of different open source projects. Not just Ironic and and Metal Kubed, but that's a huge win. That is truly getting your infrastructure. >> John: That's an inflection point, really. >> Yeah. >> If you think about it, 'cause that's one of the problems. We had with the Bare Metal piece was the automation and also making it Cloud Ops, cloud operations. >> Right, yeah. I mean, one of the things that I think Ironic did really well was saying let's just treat that piece of Bare Metal like a Cloud VM or an instance. If you got a problem with it, just give the person using it or whatever's using it, a new one and reimage it. Just tell it to reimage itself and it'll just (snaps fingers) go. You can do self-service with it. In Platform9, if you log in to our SaaS Ironic, you can go and say, I want that physical server to myself, because I've got a giant workload, or let's turn it into a Kubernetes cluster. That whole thing is automated. To me that's infrastructure as code. I think one of the other important things that's happening at the same time is we're seeing GitOps, we're seeing things like Terraform. I think it's important for organizations to look at what they have and ask, am I using tools that are fit for tomorrow or am I using tools that are yesterday's tools to solve tomorrow's problems? And when especially it comes to modernizing infrastructure as code, I think that's a big piece to look at. >> Do you see Terraform as old or new? >> I see Terraform as old. It's a fantastic tool, capable of many great things and it can work with basically every single provider out there on the planet. It is able to do things. Is it best fit to run in a GitOps methodology? I don't think it is quite at that point. In fact, if you went and looked at Flux, Flux has ways that make Terraform GitOps compliant, which is absolutely fantastic. It's using two tools, the best of breeds, which is solving that tomorrow problem with tomorrow solutions. >> Is the new solutions old versus new. I like this old way, new way. I mean, Terraform is not that old and it's been around for about eight years or so, whatever. But HashiCorp is doing a great job with that. I mean, so okay with Terraform, what's the new address? Is it more complex environments? Because Terraform made sense when you had basic DevOps, but now it sounds like there's a whole another level of complexity. >> I got to say. >> New tools. >> That kind of amalgamation of that application into infrastructure. Now my app team is paying way more attention to that manifest file, which is what GitOps is trying to solve. Let's templatize things. Let's version control our manifest, be it helm, customize, or just a straight up Kubernetes manifest file, plain and boring. Let's get that version controlled. Let's make sure that we know what is there, why it was changed. Let's get some auditability and things like that. And then let's get that deployment all automated. So that's predicated on the cluster existing. Well why can't we do the same thing with the cluster, the inception problem. So even if you're in public cloud, the question is like, well what's calling that API to call that thing to happen? Where is that file living? How well can I manage that in a large team? Oh my God, something just changed. Who changed it? Where is that file? And I think that's one of big, the big pieces to be sold. >> Yeah, and you talk about Edge too and on-premises. I think one of the things I'm observing and certainly when DevOps was rocking and rolling and infrastructures code was like the real push, it was pretty much the public cloud, right? >> Chris: Yep. >> And you did Cloud Native and you had stuff on-premises. Yeah you did some lifting and shifting in the cloud, but the cool stuff was going in the public cloud and you ran DevOps. Okay, now you got on-premise cloud operation and Edge. Is that the new DevOps? I mean 'cause what you're kind of getting at with old new, old new Terraform example is an interesting point, because you're pointing out potentially that that was good DevOps back in the day or it still is. >> Chris: It is, I was going to say. >> But depending on how you define what DevOps is. So if you say, I got the new DevOps with public on-premise and Edge, that's just not all public cloud, that's essentially distributed Cloud Native. >> Correct. Is that the new DevOps in your mind or is that? How would you, or is that oversimplifying it? >> Or is that that term where everyone's saying Platform Ops, right? Has it shifted? >> Well you bring up a good point about Terraform. I mean Terraform is well proven. People love it. It's got great use cases and now there seems to be new things happening. We call things like super cloud emerging, which is multicloud and abstraction layers. So you're starting to see stuff being abstracted away for the benefits of moving to the next level, so teams don't get stuck doing the same old thing. They can move on. Like what you guys are doing with Platform9 is providing a service so that teams don't have to do it. >> Correct, yeah. >> That makes a lot of sense, So you just, now it's running and then they move on to the next thing. >> Chris: Yeah, right. >> So what is that next thing? >> I think Edge is a big part of that next thing. The propensity for someone to put up with a delay, I think it's gone. For some reason, we've all become fairly short-tempered, Short fused. You know, I click the button, it should happen now, type people. And for better or worse, hopefully it gets better and we all become a bit more patient. But how do I get more effective and efficient at delivering that to that really demanding- >> I think you bring up a great point. I mean, it's not just people are getting short-tempered. I think it's more of applications are being deployed faster, security is more exposed if they don't see things quicker. You got data now infrastructure scaling up massively. So, there's a double-edged swords to scale. >> Chris: Yeah, yeah. I mean, maintenance, downtime, uptime, security. So yeah, I think there's a tension around, and one hand enthusiasm around pushing a lot of code and new apps. But is the confidence truly there? It's interesting one little, (snaps finger) supply chain software, look at Container Security for instance. >> Yeah, yeah. It's big. I mean it was codified. >> Do you agree that people, that's kind of an issue right now. >> Yeah, and it was, I mean even the supply chain has been codified by the US federal government saying there's things we need to improve. We don't want to see software being a point of vulnerability, and software includes that whole process of getting it to a running point. >> It's funny you mentioned remote and one of the thing things that you're passionate about, certainly Edge has to be remote. You don't want to roll a truck or labor at the Edge. But I was doing a conversation with, at Rebars last year about space. It's hard to do brake fix on space. It's hard to do a, to roll a someone to configure satellite, right? Right? >> Chris: Yeah. >> So Kubernetes is in space. We're seeing a lot of Cloud Native stuff in apps, in space, so just an example. This highlights the fact that it's got to be automated. Is there a machine learning AI angle with all this ChatGPT talk going on? You see all the AI going the next level. Some pretty cool stuff and it's only, I know it's the beginning, but I've heard people using some of the new machine learning, large language models, large foundational models in areas I've never heard of. Machine learning and data centers, machine learning and configuration management, a lot of different ways. How do you see as the product person, you incorporating the AI piece into the products for Platform9? >> I think that's a lot about looking at the telemetry and the information that we get back and to use one of those like old idle terms, that continuous improvement loop to feed it back in. And I think that's really where machine learning to start with comes into effect. As we run across all these customers, our system that helps at two o'clock in the morning has that telemetry, it's got that data. We can see what's changing and what's happening. So it's writing the right algorithms, creating the right machine learning to- >> So training will work for you guys. You have enough data and the telemetry to do get that training data. >> Yeah, obviously there's a lot of investment required to get there, but that is something that ultimately that could be achieved with what we see in operating people's environments. >> Great. Chris, great to have you here in the studio. Going wide ranging conversation on Kubernetes and Platform9. I guess my final question would be how do you look at the next five years out there? Because you got to run the product management, you got to have that 20 mile steer, you got to look at the customers, you got to look at what's going on in the engineering and you got to kind of have that arc. This is the right path kind of view. What's the five year arc look like for you guys? How do you see this playing out? 'Cause KubeCon is coming up and we're you seeing Kubernetes kind of break away with security? They had, they didn't call it KubeCon Security, they call it CloudNativeSecurityCon, they just had in Seattle inaugural events seemed to go well. So security is kind of breaking out and you got Kubernetes. It's getting bigger. Certainly not going away, but what's your five year arc of of how Platform9 and Kubernetes and Ops evolve? >> It's to stay on that theme, it's focusing on what is most important to our users and getting them to a point where they can just consume it, so they're not having to operate it. So it's finding those big items and bringing that into our platform. It's something that's consumable, that's just taken care of, that's tested with each release. So it's simplifying operations more and more. We've always said freedom in cloud computing. Well we started on, we started on OpenStack and made that simple. Stable, easy, you just have it, it works. We're doing that with Kubernetes. We're expanding out that user, right, we're saying bring your developers in, they can download their Kube conflict. They can see those Containers that are running there. They can access the events, the log files. They can log in and build a VM using KubeVirt. They're self servicing. So it's alleviating pressures off of the Ops team, removing the help desk systems that people still seem to rely on. So it's like what comes into that field that is the next biggest issue? Is it things like CI/CD? Is it simplifying GitOps? Is it bringing in security capabilities to talk to that? Or is that a piece that is a best of breed? Is there a reason that it's been spun out to its own conference? Is this something that deserves a focus that should be a specialized capability instead of tooling and vendors that we work with, that we partner with, that could be brought in as a service. I think it's looking at those trends and making sure that what we bring in has the biggest impact to our users. >> That's awesome. Thanks for coming in. I'll give you the last word. Put a plug in for Platform9 for the people who are watching. What should they know about Platform9 that they might not know about it or what should? When should they call you guys and when should they engage? Take a take a minute to give the plug. >> The plug. I think it's, if your operations team is focused on building Kubernetes, stop. That shouldn't be the cloud. That shouldn't be in the Edge, that shouldn't be at the data center. They should be consuming it. If your engineering teams are all trying different ways and doing different things to use and consume Cloud Native services and Kubernetes, they shouldn't be. You want consistency. That's how you get economies of scale. Provide them with a simple platform that's integrated with all of your enterprise identity where they can just start consuming instead of having to solve these problems themselves. It's those, it's those two personas, right? Where the problems manifest. What are my operations teams doing, and are they delivering to my company or are they building infrastructure again? And are my engineers sprinting or crawling? 'Cause if they're not sprinting, you should be asked the question, do I have the right Cloud Native tooling in my environment and how can I get them back? >> I think it's developer productivity, uptime, security are the tell signs. You get that done. That's the goal of what you guys are doing, your mission. >> Chris: Yep. >> Great to have you on, Chris. Thanks for coming on. Appreciate it. >> Chris: Thanks very much. 0 Okay, this is "theCUBE" here, finding the right path to Cloud Native. I'm John Furrier, host of "theCUBE." Thanks for watching. (upbeat music)

(upbeat electronic music) >> Narrator: From theCUBE studios in Palo Alto and Boston, connecting with thought leaders all around the world, this is a CUBE conversation. >> Okay, hello everyone. I'm John Furrier with theCUBE. We're here with Meet the Analysts segment Sunday morning. We've got everyone around the world here to discuss a bit of the news around the EU killing the privacy deal, striking it down, among other topics around, you know, data privacy and global commerce. We got great guests here, Ray Wang, CEO of Constellation Research. Bill Mew, founder and CEO of Cyber Crisis Management from the Firm Crisis Team. And JD, CEO of Spearhead Management. JD, I can let you say your name because I really can't pronounce it. How do I (laughs) pronounce it, doctor? >> I wouldn't even try it unless you are Dutch, otherwise it will seriously hurt your throat. (Ray laughing) So, JD works perfect for me. >> Doctor Drooghaag. >> And Sarbjeet Johal, who's obviously an influencer, a cloud awesome native expert. Great, guys. Great to have you on, appreciate it, thanks for comin' on. And Bill, thank you for initiating this, I appreciate all your tweets. >> Happy Sunday. (Bill laughing) >> You guys have been really tweeting up a storm, I want to get everyone together, kind of as an analyst, Meet the Analyst segment. Let's go through with it. The news is the EU and U.S. Privacy Shield for data struck down by the court, that's the BBC headline. Variety of news, different perspectives, you've got an American perspective and you've got an international perspective. Bill, we'll start with you. What does this news mean? I mean, basically half the people in the world probably don't know what the Privacy Shield means, so why is this ruling so important, and why should it be discussed? >> Well, thanks to sharing between Europe and America, it's based on a two-way promise that when data goes from Europe to America, the Americans promise to respect our privacy, and when data goes form America to Europe, the Europeans promise to respect the American privacy. Unfortunately, there are big cultural differences between the two blocks. The Europeans have a massive orientation around privacy as a human right. And in the U.S., there's somewhat more of a prioritization on national security, and therefore for some time there's been a mismatch here, and it could be argued that the Americans haven't been living up to their promise because they've had various different laws, and look how much talk about FISA and the Cloud Act that actually contravene European privacy and are incompatible with the promise Americans have given. That promise, first of all, was in the form of a treaty called Safe Harbor. This went to court and was struck down. It was replaced by Privacy Shield, which was pretty much the same thing really, and that has recently been to the court as well, and that has been struck down. There now is no other means of legally sharing data between Europe and America other than what are being called standard contractual clauses. This isn't a broad treaty between two nations, these are drawn by each individual country. But also in the ruling, they said that standard contractual clauses could not be used by any companies that were subject to mass surveillance. And actually in the U.S., the FISA courts enforce a level of mass surveillance through all of the major IT firms, of all major U.S. telcos, cloud firms, or indeed, social media firms. So, this means that for all of the companies out there and their clients, business should be carrying on as usual apart from if you're one of those major U.S. IT firms, or one of their clients. >> So, why did this come about? Was there like a major incident? Why now, was it in the court, stuck in the courts? Were people bitchin' and moanin' about it? Why did this go down, what's the real issue? >> For those of us who have been following this attentively, things have been getting more and more precarious for a number of years now. We've had a situation where there are different measures being taken in the U.S., that have continued to erode the different protections that there were for Europeans. FISA is an example that I've given, and that is the sort of secret courts and secret warrants that are issued to seize data without anyone's knowledge. There's the Cloud Act, which is a sort of extrajudicial law that means that warrants can be served in America to U.S. organizations, and they have to hand over data wherever that data resides, anywhere in the world. So, data could exist on a European server, if it was under the control of an American company, they'd have to hand that over. So, whilst FISA is in direct conflict with the promises that the Americans made, things like the Cloud Act are not only in controversion with the promise they've made, there's conflicting law here, because if you're a U.S. subsidiary of a big U.S. firm, and you're based in Europe, who do you obey, the European law that says you can't hand it over because of GDPR, or the American laws that says they've got extrajudicial control, and that you've got to hand it over. So, it's made things a complete mess. And to say has this stuff, hasn't really happened? No, there's been a gradual erosion, and this has been going through the courts for a number of years. And many of us have seen it coming, and now it just hit us. >> So, if I get you right in what you're saying, it's basically all this mishmash of different laws, and there's no coherency, and consistency, is that the core issue? >> On the European side you could argue there's quite a lot of consistency, because we uphold people's privacy, in theory. But there have been incidents which we could talk about with that, but in theory, we hold your rights dear, and also the rights of Europeans, so everyone's data should be safe here from the sort of mass surveillance we're seeing. In the U.S., there's more of a direct conflict between everything, including there's been a, in his first week in the White House, Donald Trump signed an executive order saying that the Privacy Act in the U.S., which had been the main protection for people in the U.S., no longer applied to non-U.S. citizens. Which was, if you wanted try and cause a storm, and if you wanted to try and undermine the treaty, there's no better way of doing it than that. >> A lot of ways, Ray, I mean simplify this for me, because I'm a startup, I'm hustlin', or I'm a big company, I don't even know who runs the servers anymore, and I've got data stored in multiple clouds, I got in regions, and Oracle just announced more regions, you got Amazon, a gazillion regions, I could be on-premise. I mean bottom line, what is this about? I mean, and -- >> Bill's right, I mean when Max Schrems, the Austrian. Bill's right, when Max Schrems the Austrian activist actually filed his case against Facebook for where data was being stored, data residency wasn't as popular. And you know, what it means for companies that are in the cloud is that you have to make sure your data's being stored in the region, and following those specific region rules, you can't skirt those rules anymore. And I think the cloud companies know that this has been coming for some time, and that's why there's been announced in a lot of regions, a lot of areas that are actually happening, so I think that's the important part. But going back to Bill's earlier point, which is important, is America is basically the Canary Islands of privacy, right? Privacy is there, but it isn't there in a very, very explicit sense, and I think we've been skirting the rules for quite some time, because a lot of our economy depends on that data, and the marketing of the data. And so we often confuse privacy with consent, and also with value exchange, and I think that's part of the problem of what's going on here. Companies that have been building their business models on free data, free private data, free personally identifiable data information are the ones that are at risk! And I think that's what's going on here. >> It's the classic Facebook issue, you're the product, and the data is your product. Well, I want to get into what this means, 'cause my personal take away, not knowing the specifics, and just following say, cyber security for instance, one of the tenets there is that data sharing is an invaluable, important ethos in the community. Now, everyone has their own privacy, or security data, they don't want to let everyone know about their exploits but, but it's well known in the security world that sharing data with each other, different companies and countries is actually a good thing. So, the question that comes in my mind, is this really about data sharing or data privacy, or both? >> I think it's about both. And actually what the ruling is saying here is, all we're asking from the European side is please stop spying on us and please give us a level of equal protection that you give to your own citizens. Because data comes from America to Europe, whatever that data belongs to, a U.S. citizen or a European citizen, it's given equal protection. It is only if data goes in the other direction, where you have secret courts, secret warrants, seizure of data on this massive scale, and also a level of lack of equivalence that has been imposed. And we're just asking that once you've sorted out a few of those things, we'd say everything's back on the table, away we go again! >> Why don't we merge the EU with the United States? Wouldn't that solve the problem? (Bill laughing) >> We just left Europe! (laughs heartily) >> Actually I always -- >> A hostile takeover of the UK maybe, the 52nd state. (Bill laughing loudly) >> I always pick on Bill, like Bill, you got all screaming loud and clear about all these concerns, but UKs trying to get out of that economic union. It is a union at the end of the day, and I think the problem is the institutional mismatch between the EU and U.S., U.S. is old democracy, bigger country, population wise, bigger economy. Whereas Europe is several countries trying to put together, band together as one entity, and the institutions are new, like you know, they're 15 years old, right? They're maturing. I think that's where the big mismatch is and -- >> Well, Ray, I want to get your thoughts on this, Ray wrote a book, I forget what year it was, this digital disruption, basically it was digital transformation before it was actually a trend. I mean to me it's like, do you do the process first and then figure out where the value extraction is, and this may be a Silicon Valley or an American thing, but go create value, then figure out how to create process or understand regulations. So, if data and entrepreneurship is going to be a new modern era of value, why wouldn't we want to create a rule based system that's open and enabling, and not restrictive? >> So, that's a great point, right? And the innovation culture means you go do it first, and you figure out the rules later, and that's been a very American way of getting things done, and very Silicon Valley in our perspective, not everyone, but I think in general that's kind of the trend. I think the challenge here is that we are trading privacy for security, privacy for convenience, privacy for personalization, right? And on the security level, it's a very different conversation than what it is on the consumer end, you know, personalization side. On the security side I think most Americans are okay with a little bit of "spying," at least on your own side, you know, to keep the country safe. We're not okay with a China level type of spying, which we're not sure exactly what that means or what's enforceable in the courts. We look like China to the Europeans in the way we treat privacy, and I think that's the perspective we need to understand because Europeans are very explicit about how privacy is being protected. And so this really comes back to a point where we actually have to get to a consent model on privacy, as to knowing what data is being shared, you have the right to say no, and when you have the right to say no. And then if you have a value exchange on that data, then it's really like sometimes it's monetary, sometimes it's non-monetary, sometimes there's other areas around consensus where you can actually put that into place. And I think that's what's missing at this point, saying, you know, "Do we pay for your data? Do we explicitly get your consent first before we use it?" And we haven't had that in place, and I think that's where we're headed towards. And you know sometimes we actually say privacy should be a human right, it is in the UN Charter, but we haven't figured out how to enforce it or talk about it in the digital age. And so I think that's the challenge. >> Okay, people, until they lose it, they don't really understand what it means. I mean, look at Americans. I have to say that we're idiots on this front, (Bill chuckling) but you know, the thing is most people don't even understand how much value's getting sucked out of their digital exhaust. Like, our kids, TikTok and whatnot. So I mean, I get that, I think there's some, there's going to be blow back for America for sure. I just worry it's going to increase the cost of doing business, and take away from the innovation for citizen value, the people, because at the end of the day, it's for the people right? I mean, at the end of the day it's like, what's my privacy mean if I lose value? >> Even before we start talking about the value of the data and the innovation that we can do through data use, you have to understand the European perspective here. For the European there's a level of double standards and an erosion of trust. There's double standards in the fact that in California you have new privacy regulations that are slightly different to GDPR, but they're very much GDPR like. And if the boot was on the other foot, to say if we were spying on Californians and looking at their personal data, and contravening CCPA, the Californians would be up in arms! Likewise if we having promised to have a level of equality, had enacted a local rule in Europe that said that when data from America's over here, actually the privacy of Americans counts for nothing, we're only going to prioritize the privacy of Europeans. Again, the Americans would be up in arms! And therefore you can see that there are real double standards here that are a massive issue, and until those addressed, we're not going to trust the Americans. And likewise, the very fact that on a number of occasions Americans have signed up to treaties and promised to protect our data as they did with Safe Harbor, as they did with Privacy Shield, and then have blatantly, blatantly failed to do so means that actually to get back to even a level playing field, where we were, you have a great deal of trust to overcome! And the thing from the perspective of the big IT firms, they've seen this coming for a long time, as Ray was saying, and they sought to try and have a presence in Europe and other things. But the way this ruling has gone is that, I'm sorry, that isn't going to be sufficient! These big IT firms based in the U.S. that have been happy to hand over data, well some of them maybe more happy than others, but they all need to hand over data to the NSA or the CIA. They've been doing this for some time now without actually respecting this data privacy agreement that has existed between the two trading blocks. And now they've been called out, and the position now is that the U.S. is no longer trusted, and neither are any of these large American technology firms. And until the snooping stops and equality is introduced, they can now no longer, even from their European operations, they can no longer use standard contractual clauses to transfer data, which is going to be a massive restriction on their business. And if they had any sense, they'd be lobbying very, very hard right now to the Senate, to the House, to try and persuade U.S. lawmakers actually to stick to some these treaties! To stop introducing really mad laws that ride roughshod over other people's privacy, and have a certain amount of respect. >> Let's let JD weigh in, 'cause he just got in, sorry on the video, I made him back on a host 'cause he dropped off. Just, Bill, real quick, I mean I think it's like when, you know, I go to Europe there's the line for Americans, there's the line for EU. Or EU and everybody else. I mean we might be there, but ultimately this has to be solved. So, JD, I want to let you weigh in, Germany has been at the beginning forefront of privacy, and they've been hardcore, and how's this all playing out in your perspective? >> Well, the first thing that we have to understand is that in Germany, there is a very strong law for regulation. Germans panic as soon as they know regulation, so they need to understand what am I allowed to do, and what am I not allowed to do. And they expect the same from the others. For the record I'm not German, but I live in Germany for some 20 years, so I got a bit of a feeling for them. And that sense of need for regulation has spread very fast throughout the European Union, because most of the European member states of the European Union consider this, that it makes sense, and then we found that Britain had already a very good framework for privacy, so GDPR itself is very largely based on what the United Kingdom already had in place with their privacy act. Moving forward, we try to find agreement and consensus with other countries, especially the United States because that's where most of the tech providers are, only to find out, and that is where it started to go really, really bad, 2014, when the mass production by Edward Snowden came out, to find out it's not data from citizens, it's surveillance programs which include companies. I joined a purchasing conference a few weeks ago where the purchase of a large European multinational, where the purchasing director explicitly stated that usage of U.S. based tech providers for sensitive data is prohibited as a result of them finding out that they have been under surveillance. So, it's not just the citizens, there's mass -- >> There you have it, guys! We did trust you! We did have agreements there that you could have abided by, but you chose not to, you chose to abuse our trust! And you're now in a position where you are no longer trusted, and unless you can lobby your own elected representatives to actually recreate a level playing field, we're not going to continue trusting you. >> So, I think really I -- >> Well I mean that, you know, innovation has to come from somewhere, and you know, has to come from America if that's the case, you guys have to get on board, right? Is that what it -- >> Innovation without trust? >> Is that the perspective? >> I don't think it's a country thing, I mean like, it's not you or them, I think everybody -- >> I'm just bustin' Bill's chops there. >> No, but I think everybody, everybody is looking for what the privacy rules are, and that's important. And you can have that innovation with consent, and I think that's really where we're going to get to. And this is why I keep pushing that issue. I mean, privacy should be a fundamental right, and how you get paid for that privacy is interesting, or how you get compensated for that privacy if you know what the explicit value exchange is. What you're talking about here is the surveillance that's going on by companies, which shouldn't be happening, right? That shouldn't be happening at the company level. At the government level I can understand that that is happening, and I think those are treaties that the governments have to agree upon as to how much they're going to impinge on our personal privacy for the trade off for security, and I don't think they've had those discussions either. Or they decided and didn't tell any of their citizens, and I think that's probably more likely the case. >> I mean, I think what's happening here, Bill, you guys were pointing out, and Ray, you articulated there on the other side, and my kind of colorful joke aside, is that we're living a first generation modern sociology problem. I mean, this is a policy challenge that extends across multiple industries, cyber security, citizen's rights, geopolitical. I mean when would look, and even when we were doing CUBE events overseas in Europe, in North American companies we'd call it abroad, we'd just recycle the American program, and we found there's so much localization value. So, Ray, this is the digital disruption, it's the virtualization of physical for digital worlds, and it's a lot of network theory, which is computer science, a lot of sociology. This is a modern challenge, and I don't think it so much has a silver bullet, it's just that we need smart people working on this. That's my take away! >> I think we can describe the ideal endpoint being somewhere we have meaningful protection alongside the maximization of economic and social value through innovation. So, that should be what we would all agree would be the ideal endpoint. But we need both, we need meaningful protection, and we need the maximization of economic and social value through innovation! >> Can I add another axis? Another axis, security as well. >> Well, I could -- >> I put meaningful protection as becoming both security and privacy. >> Well, I'll speak for the American perspective here, and I won't speak, 'cause I'm not the President of the United States, but I will say as someone who's been from Silicon Valley and the east coast as a technical person, not a political person, our lawmakers are idiots when it comes to tech, just generally. (Ray laughing) They're not really -- (Bill laughing loudly) >> They really don't understand. They really don't understand the tech at all! >> So, the problem is -- >> I'm not claiming ours are a great deal better. (laughs) >> Well, this is why I think this is a modern problem. Like, the young people I talk to are like, "Why do we have this rules?" They're all lawyers that got into these positions of Congress on the American side, and so with the American JEDI Contract you guys have been following very closely is, it's been like the old school Oracle, IBM, and then Amazon is leading with an innovative solution, and Microsoft has come in and re-pivoted. And so what you have is a fight for the digital future of citizenship! And I think what's happening is that we're in a massive societal transition, where the people in charge don't know what the hell they're talkin' about, technically. And they don't know who to tap to solve the problems, or even shape or frame the problems. Now, there's pockets of people that are workin' on it, but to me as someone who looks at this saying, it's a pretty simple solution, no one's ever seen this before. So, there's a metaphor you can draw, but it's a completely different problem space because it's, this is all digital, data's involved. >> We've got a lobbyists out there, and we've got some tech firms spending an enormous amount of lobbying. If those lobbyists aren't trying to steer their representatives in the right direction to come up with law that aren't going to massively undermine trade and data sharing between Europe and America, then they're making a big mistake, because we got here through some really dumb lawmaking in the U.S., I mean, there are none of the laws in Europe that are a problem here. 'Cause GDPR isn't a great difference, a great deal different from some of the laws that we have already in California and elsewhere. >> Bill, Bill. >> The laws that are at issue here -- >> Bill, Bill! You have to like, back up a little bit from that rhetoric that EU is perfect and U.S. is not, that's not true actually. >> I'm not saying we're perfect! >> No, no, you say that all the time. >> But I'm saying there's a massive lack of innovation. Yeah, yeah. >> I don't, I've never said it! >> Arm wrestle! >> Yes, yes. >> When I'm being critical of some of the dumb laws in the U.S, (Sarbjeet laughing) I'm not saying Europe is perfect. What we're trying to say is that in this particular instance, I said there was an equal balance here between meaningful protection and the maximization of economic and social value. On the meaningful protection side, America's got it very wrong in terms of the meaningful protection it provides to civil European data. On the maximization of economic and social value, I think Europe's got it wrong. I think there are a lot of things we could do in Europe to actually have far more innovation. >> Yeah. >> It's a cultural issue. The Germans want rules, that's what they crave for. America's the other way, we don't want rules, I mean, pretty much is a rebel society. And that's kind of the ethos of most tech companies. But I think you know, to me the media, there's two things that go on with this tech business. The company's themselves have to be checked by say, government, and I believe in not a lot of regulation, but enough to check the power of bad actors. Media so called "checking power", both of these major roles, they don't really know what they're talking about, and this is back to the education piece. The people who are in the media so called "checking power" and the government checking power assume that the companies are bad. Right, so yeah, because eight out of ten companies like Amazon, actually try to do good things. If you don't know what good is, you don't really, (laughs) you know, you're in the wrong game. So, I think media and government have a huge education opportunity to look at this because they don't even know what they're measuring. >> I support the level of innovation -- >> I think we're unreeling from the globalization. Like, we are undoing the globalization, and that these are the side effects, these conflicts are a side effect of that. >> Yeah, so all I'm saying is I support the focus on innovation in America, and that has driven an enormous amount of wealth and value. What I'm questioning here is do you really need to spy on us, your allies, in order to help that innovation? And I'm starting to, I mean, do you need mass surveillance of your allies? I mean, I can see you may want to have some surveillance of people who are a threat to you, but wait, guys, we're meant to be on your side, and you haven't been treating our privacy with a great deal of respect! >> You know, Saudi Arabia was our ally. You know, 9/11 happened because of them, their people, right? There is no ally here, and there is no enemy, in a way. We don't know where the rogue actors are sitting, like they don't know, they can be within the walls -- >> It's well understood I think, I agree, sorry. it's well understood that nation states are enabling terrorist groups to take out cyber attacks. That's well known, the source enables it. So, I think there's the privacy versus -- >> I'm not sure it's true in your case that it's Europeans that's doing this though. >> No, no, well you know, they share -- >> I'm a former officer in the Royal Navy, I've stood shoulder to shoulder with my U.S. counterparts. I put my life on the line on NATO exercises in real war zones, and I'm now a disabled ex-serviceman as a result of that. I mean, if I put my line on the line shoulder to shoulder with Americans, why is my privacy not respected? >> Hold on -- >> I feel it's, I was going to say actually that it's not that, like even the U.S., right? Part of the spying internally is we have internal actors that are behaving poorly. >> Yeah. >> Right, we have Marxist organizations posing as, you know, whatever it is, I'll leave it at that. But my point being is we've got a lot of that, every country has that, every country has actors and citizens and people in the system that are destined to try to overthrow the system. And I think that's what that surveillance is about. The question is, we don't have treaties, or we didn't have your explicit agreements. And that's why I'm pushing really hard here, like, they're separating privacy versus security, which is the national security, and privacy versus us as citizens in terms of our data being basically taken over for free, being used for free. >> John: I agree with that. >> That I think we have some agreement on. I just think that our governments haven't really had that conversation about what surveillance means. Maybe someone agreed and said, "Okay, that's fine. You guys can go do that, we won't tell anybody." And that's what it feels like. And I don't think we deliberately are saying, "Hey, we wanted to spy on your citizens." I think someone said, "Hey, there's a benefit here too." Otherwise I don't think the EU would have let this happen for that long unless Max had made that case and started this ball rolling, so, and Edward Snowden and other folks. >> Yeah, and I totally support the need for security. >> I want to enter the -- >> I mean we need to, where there are domestic terrorists, we need to stop them, and we need to have local action in UK to stop it happening here, and in America to stop it happening there. But if we're doing that, there is absolutely no need for the Americans to be spying on us. And there's absolutely no need for the Americans to say that privacy applies to U.S. citizens only, and not to Europeans, these are daft, it's just daft! >> That's a fair point. I'm sure GCHQ and everyone else has this covered, I mean I'm sure they do. (laughs) >> Oh, Bill, I know, I've been involved, I've been involved, and I know for a fact the U.S. and the UK are discussing I know a company called IronNet, which is run by General Keith Alexander, funded by C5 Capital. There's a lot of collaboration, because again, they're tryin' to get their arms around how to frame it. And they all agree that sharing data for the security side is super important, right? And I think IronNet has this thing called Iron Dome, which is essentially like they're saying, hey, we'll just consistency around the rules of shared data, and we can both, everyone can have their own little data. So, I think there's recognition at the highest levels of some smart people on both countries. (laughs) "Hey, let's work together!" The issue I have is just policy, and I think there's a lot of clustering going on. Clustered here around just getting out of their own way. That's my take on that. >> Are we a PG show? Wait, are we a PG show? I just got to remember that. (laughs) (Bill laughing) >> It's the internet, there's no regulation, there's no rules! >> There's no regulation! >> The European rules or is it the American rules? (Ray laughing) >> I would like to jump back quickly to the purpose of the surveillance, and especially when mass surveillance is done under the cover of national security and terror prevention. I worked with five clients in the past decade who all have been targeted under mass surveillance, which was revealed by Edward Snowden, and when they did their own investigation, and partially was confirmed by Edward Snowden in person, they found out that their purchasing department, their engineering department, big parts of their pricing data was targeted in mass surveillance. There's no way that anyone can explain me that that has anything to do with preventing terror attacks, or finding the bad guys. That is economical espionage, you cannot call it in any other way. And that was authorized by the same legislation that authorizes the surveillance for the right purposes. I'm all for fighting terror, and anything that can help us prevent terror from happening, I would be the first person to welcome it. But I do not welcome when that regulation is abused for a lot of other things under the cover of national interest. I understand -- >> Back to the lawmakers again. And again, America's been victim to the Chinese some of the individual properties, well documented, well known in tech circles. >> Yeah, but just 'cause the Chinese have targeted you doesn't give you free right to target us. >> I'm not saying that, but its abuse of power -- >> If the U.S. can sort out a little bit of reform, in the Senate and the House, I think that would go a long way to solving the issues that Europeans have right now, and a long way to sort of reaching a far better place from which we can all innovate and cooperate. >> Here's the challenge that I see. If you want to be instrumenting everything, you need a closed society, because if you have a free country like America and the UK, a democracy, you're open. If you're open, you can't stop everything, right? So, there has to be a trust, to your point, Bill. As to me that I'm just, I just can't get my arms around that idea of complete lockdown and data surveillance because I don't think it's gettable in the United States, like it's a free world, it's like, open. It should be open. But here we've got the grids, and we've got the critical infrastructure that should be protected. So, that's one hand. I just can't get around that, 'cause once you start getting to locking down stuff and measuring everything, that's just a series of walled gardens. >> So, to JD's point on the procurement data and pricing data, I have been involved in some of those kind of operations, and I think it's financial espionage that they're looking at, financial security, trying to figure out a way to track down capital flows and what was purchased. I hope that was it in your client's case, but I think it's trying to figure out where the money flow is going, more so than trying to understand the pricing data from competitive purposes. If it is the latter, where they're stealing the competitive information on pricing, and data's getting back to a competitor, that is definitely a no-no! But if it's really to figure out where the money trail went, which is what I think most of those financial analysts are doing, especially in the CIA, or in the FBI, that's really what that probably would have been. >> Yeah, I don't think that the CIA is selling the data to your competitors, as a company, to Microsoft or to Google, they're not selling it to each other, right? They're not giving it to each other, right? So, I think the one big problem I studied with FISA is that they get the data, but how long they can keep the data and how long they can mine the data. So, they should use that data as exhaust. Means like, they use it and just throw it away. But they don't, they keep mining that data at a later date, and FISA is only good for five years. Like, I learned that every five years we revisit that, and that's what happened this time, that we renewed it for six years this time, not five, for some reason one extra year. So, I think we revisit all these laws -- >> Could be an election cycle. >> Huh? >> Could be an election cycle maybe. (laughs) >> Yes, exactly! So, we revisit all these laws with Congress and Senate here periodically just to make sure that they are up to date, and that they're not infringing on human rights, or citizen's rights, or stuff like that. >> When you say you update to check they're not conflicting with anything, did you not support that it was conflicting with Privacy Shield and some of the promises you made to Europeans? At what point did that fail to become obvious? >> It does, because there's heightened urgency. Every big incident happens, 9/11 caused a lot of new sort of like regulations and laws coming into the picture. And then the last time, that the Russian interference in our election, that created some sort of heightened urgency. Like, "We need to do something guys here, like if some country can topple our elections, right, that's not acceptable." So, yeah -- >> And what was it that your allies did that caused you to spy on us and to downgrade our privacy? >> I'm not expert on the political systems here. I think our allies are, okay, loose on their, okay, I call it village politics. Like, world is like a village. Like it's so only few countries, it's not millions of countries, right? That's how I see it, a city versus a village, and that's how I see the countries, like village politics. Like there are two camps, like there's Russia and China camp, and then there's U.S. camp on the other side. Like, we used to have Russia and U.S., two forces, big guys, and they managed the whole world balance somehow, right? Like some people with one camp, the other with the other, right? That's how they used to work. Now that Russia has gone, hold on, let me finish, let me finish. >> Yeah. >> Russia's gone, there's this void, right? And China's trying to fill the void. Chinese are not like, acting diplomatic enough to fill that void, and there's, it's all like we're on this imbalance, I believe. And then Russia becomes a rogue actor kind of in a way, that's how I see it, and then they are funding all these bad people. You see that all along, like what happened in the Middle East and all that stuff. >> You said there are different camps. We thought we were in your camp! We didn't expect to be spied on by you, or to have our rights downgraded by you. >> No, I understand but -- >> We thought we were on your side! >> But, but you have to guys to trust us also, like in a village. Let me tell you, I come from a village, that's why I use the villager as a hashtag in my twitter also. Like in village, there are usually one or two families which keep the village intact, that's our roles. >> Right. >> Like, I don't know if you have lived in a village or not -- >> Well, Bill, you're making some great statements. Where's the evidence on the surveillance, where can people find more information on this? Can you share? >> I think there's plenty of evidence, and I can send some stuff on, and I'm a little bit shocked given the awareness of the FISA Act, the Cloud Act, the fact that these things are in existence and they're not exactly unknown. And many people have been complaining about them for years. I mean, we've had Safe Harbor overturned, we've had Privacy Shield overturned, and these weren't just on a whim! >> Yeah, what does JD have in his hand? I want to know. >> The Edward Snowden book! (laughs) >> By Edward Snowden, which gives you plenty. But it wasn't enough, and it's something that we have to keep in mind, because we can always claim that whatever Edward Snowden wrote, that he made it up. Every publication by Edward Snowden is an avalanche of technical confirmation. One of the things that he described about the Cisco switches, which Bill prefers to quote every time, which is a proven case, there were bundles of researchers saying, "I told you guys!" Nobody paid attention to those researchers, and Edward Snowden was smart enough to get the mass media representation in there. But there's one thing, a question I have for Sabjeet, because in the two parties strategy, it is interesting that you always take out the European Union as part. And the European Union is a big player, and it will continue to grow. It has a growing amount of trade agreements with a growing amount of countries, and I still hope, and I think think Bill -- >> Well, I think the number of countries is reducing, you've just lost one! >> Only one. (Bill laughing loudly) Actually though, those are four countries under one kingdom, but that's another point. (Bill chortling heartily) >> Guys, final topic, 5G impact, 'cause you mentioned Cisco, couldn't help think about -- >> Let me finish please my question, John. >> Okay, go ahead. How would you the United States respond if the European Union would now legalize to spy on everybody and every company, and every governmental institution within the United States and say, "No, no, it's our privilege, we need that." How would the United States respond? >> You can try that and see economically what happens to you, that's how the village politics work, you have to listen to the mightier than you, and we are economically mightier, that's the fact. Actually it's hard to swallow fact for, even for anybody else. >> If you guys built a great app, I would use it, and surveil all you want. >> Yeah, but so this is going to be driven by the economics. (John laughing) But the -- >> That's exactly what John said. >> This is going to be driven by the economics here. The big U.S. cloud firms are got to find this ruling enormously difficult for them, and they are inevitably going to lobby for a level of reform. And I think a level of a reform is needed. Nobody on your side is actually arguing very vociferously that the Cloud Act and the discrimination against Europeans is actually a particularly good idea. The problem is that once you've done the reform, are we going to believe you when you say, "Oh, it's all good now, we've stopped it!" Because with Crypto AG scandal in Switzerland you weren't exactly honest about what you were doing. With the FISA courts, so I mean FISA secret courts, the secret warrants, how do we know and what proof can we have that you've stopped doing all these bad things? And I think one of the challenges, A, going to be the reform, and then B, got to be able to show that you actually got your act together and you're now clean. And until you can solve those two, many of your big tech companies are going to be at a competitive disadvantage, and they're going to be screaming for this reform. >> Well, I think that, you know, General Mattis said in his book about Trump and the United states, is that you need alliances, and I think your point about trust and executing together, without alliances, it really doesn't work. So, unless there's some sort of real alliance, (laughs) like understanding that there's going to be some teamwork here, (Bill laughing) I don't think it's going to go anywhere. So, otherwise it'll continue to be siloed and network based, right? So to the village point, if TikTok can become a massively successful app, and they're surveilling, so and then we have to decide that we're going to put up with that, I mean, that's not my decision, but that's what's goin' on here. It's like, what is TikTok, is it good or bad? Amazon sent out an email, and they've retracted it, that's because it went public. I guarantee you that they're talkin' about that at Amazon, like, "Why would we want infiltration by the Chinese?" And I'm speculating, I have no data, I'm just saying, you know. They email those out, then they pull it back, "Oh, we didn't mean to send that." Really, hmm? (laughs) You know, so this kind of -- >> But the TRA Balin's good, you always want to get TRA Balin out there. >> Yeah, exactly. There's some spying going on! So, this is the reality. >> So, John, you were talking about 5G, and I think you know, the role of 5G, you know, the battle between Cisco and Huawei, you just have to look at it this way, would you rather have the U.S. spy on you, or would you rather have China? And that's really your binary choice at this moment. And you know both is happening, and so the question is which one is better. Like, the one that you're in alliance with? The one that you're not in alliance with, the one that wants to bury you, and decimate your country, and steal all your secrets and then commercialize 'em? Or the one kind of does it, but doesn't really do it explicitly? So, you've got to choose. (laughs) >> It's supposed to be -- >> Or you can say no, we're going to create our own standard for 5G and kick both out, that's an option. >> It's probably not as straightforward a question as, or an answer to that question as you say, because if we were to fast-forward 50 years, I would argue that China is going to be the largest trading nation in the world. I believe that China is going to have the upper hand on many of these technologies, and therefore why would we not want to use some of their innovation, some of their technology, why would we not actually be more orientated around trading with them than we might be with the U.S.? I think the U.S. is throwing its weight around at this moment in time, but if we were to fast-forward I think looking in the longterm, if I had to put my money on Huawei or some of its competitors, I think given its level of investments in research and whatever, I think the better longterm bet is Huawei. >> No, no, actually you guys need to pick a camp. It's a village again. You have to pick a camp, you can't be with both guys. >> Global village. >> Oh, right, so we have to go with the guys that have been spying on us? >> How do you know the Chinese haven't been spying on you? (Ray and John laughing loudly) >> I think I'm very happy, you find a backdoor in the Huawei equipment and you show it to us, we'll take them to task on it. But don't start bullying us into making decisions based on what-ifs. >> I don't think I'm, I'm not qualified to represent the U.S., but what we would want to say is that if you look at the dynamics of what's going on, China, we've been studying that as well in terms of the geopolitical aspects of what happens in technology, they have to do what they're doing right now. Because in 20 years our population dynamics go like this, right? You've got the one child policy, and they won't have the ability to go out and fight for those same resources where they are, so what they're doing makes sense from a country perspective and country policy. But I think they're going to look like Japan in 20 years, right? Because the xenophobia, the lack of immigration, the lack of inside stuff coming in, an aging population. I mean, those are all factors that slow down your economy in the long run. And the lack of bringing new people in for ideas, I mean that's part of it, they're a closed system. And so I think the longterm dynamics of every closed system is that they tend to fail versus open systems. So, I'm not sure, they may have better technology along the way. But I think a lot of us are probably in the camp now thinking that we're not going to aid and abet them, in that sense to get there. >> You're competing a country with a company, I didn't say that China had necessarily everything rosy in its future, it'll be a bigger economy, and it'll be a bigger trading partner, but it's got its problems, the one child policy and the repercussions of that. But that is not one of the things, Huawei, I think Huawei's a massively unlimited company that has got a massive lead, certainly in 5G technology, and may continue to maintain a lead into 6G and beyond. >> Oh yeah, yeah, Huawei's done a great job on the 5G side, and I don't disagree with that. And they're ahead in many aspects compared to the U.S., and they're already working on the 6G technologies as well, and the roll outs have been further ahead. So, that's definitely -- >> And they've got a great backer too, the financer, the country China. Okay guys, (Ray laughing) let's wrap up the segment. Thanks for everyone's time. Final thoughts, just each of you on this core issue of the news that we discussed and the impact that was the conversation. What's the core issue? What should people think about? What's your solution? What's your opinion of how this plays out? Just final statements. We'll start with Bill, Ray, Sarbjeet and JD. >> All I'm going to ask you is stop spying on us, treat us equally, treat us like the allies that we are, and then I think we've got to a bright future together! >> John: Ray? >> I would say that Bill's right in that aspect in terms of how security agreements work, I think that we've needed to be more explicit about those. I can't represent the U.S. government, but I think the larger issue is really how do we view privacy, and how we do trade offs between security and convenience, and you know, what's required for personalization, and companies that are built on data. So, the sooner we get to those kind of rules, an understanding of what's possible, what's a consensus between different countries and companies, I think the better off we will all be a society. >> Yeah, I believe the most important kind of independence is the economic independence. Like, economically sound parties dictate the terms, that's what U.S. is doing. And the smaller countries have to live with it or pick the other bigger player, number two in this case is China. John said earlier, I think, also what JD said is the fine balance between national security and the privacy. You can't have, you have to strike that balance, because the rogue actors are sitting in your country, and across the boundaries of the countries, right? So, it's not that FISA is being fought by Europeans only. Our internal people are fighting that too, like how when you are mining our data, like what are you using it for? Like, I get concerned too, when you can use that data against me, that you have some data against me, right? So, I think it's the fine balance between security and privacy, we have to strike that. Awesome. JD? I'll include a little fake check, fact check, at the moment China is the largest economy, the European Union is the second largest economy, followed directly by the USA, it's a very small difference, and I recommend that these two big parties behind the largest economy start to collaborate and start to do that eye to eye, because if you want to balance the economical and manufacturing power of China, you cannot do that as being number two and number three. You have to join up forces, and that starts with sticking with the treaties that you signed, and that has not happened in the past, almost four years. So, let's go back to the table, let's work on rules where from both sides the rights and the privileges are properly reflected, and then do the most important thing, stick to them! >> Yep, I think that's awesome. I think I would say that these young kids in high school and college, they need to come up and solve the problems, this is going to be a new generational shift where the geopolitical landscape will change radically, you mentioned the top three there. And new alliances, new kinds of re-imagination has to be there, and from America's standpoint I'll just say that I'd like to see lawmakers have, instead of a LinkedIn handle, a GitHub handle. You know, when they all go out on campaign talk about what code they've written. So, I think having a technical background or some sort of knowledge of computer science and how the internet works with sociology and societal impact will be critical for our citizenships to advance. So, you know rather a lawyer, right so? (laughs) Maybe get some law involved in that, I mean the critical lawyers, but today most people are lawyers in American politics, but show me a GitHub handle of that congressman, that senator, I'd be impressed. So, that's what we need. >> Thanks, good night! >> Ray, you want to say something? >> I wanted to say something, because I thought the U.S. economy was 21 trillion, the EU is sittin' at about 16, and China was sitting about 14, but okay, I don't know. >> You need to do math man. >> Hey, we went over our 30 minutes time, we can do an hour with you guys, so you're still good. (laughs) >> Can't take anymore. >> No go on, get in there, go at it when you've got something to say. >> I don't think it's immaterial the exact size of the economy, I think that we're better off collaborating on even and fair terms, we are -- >> We're all better off collaborating. >> Yeah. >> Gentlemen -- >> But the collaboration has to be on equal and fair terms, you know. (laughs) >> How do you define fair, good point. Fair and balanced, you know, we've got the new -- >> We did define fair, we struck a treaty! We absolutely defined it, absolutely! >> Yeah. >> And then one side didn't stick to it. >> We will leave it right there, and we'll follow up (Bill laughing) in a later conversation. Gentlemen, you guys are good. Thank you. (relaxing electronic music)

from San Francisco it's the queue covering Red Hat summit 2018 brought to you by Red Hat hey welcome back everyone's two cubes live coverage here in San Francisco California at Moscone West I'm John for a co-host of the cube with my analyst this week co-host John Troy a co-founder of tech reckoning our next guest is Dave Abrams executive general manager of data at Insurance Australia group welcome to the cube thanks for having me we were just you know talking on an off-camera before we came on about the challenges of data as cloud scale you guys have been around for many many years yeah you're dealing with a lot of legacy yeah you guys out right on the front step what's going on with you take a minute to explain what you guys do in your role in your environment absolutely now it's you know so we're we're large insurance trying we we've got offices in New Zealand and across Southeast Asia so we're kind of expanding out in our in our reach but um we've been around for a hundred odd years and and we've really grown a lot through merger and acquisition over time and so what that's meant ah this is a bit of a byproduct of those kind of merge and acquisition process is that data has been siloed and fragmented in different brands and different products and so it's been hard to get for example just a holistic view of a customer what does the customer have all the products they hold you know are they a personal customer as well as a business caste and all that sort of stuff doesn't kind of line up so we've had that big challenge in we've been working over the last couple of years to even just kind of consolidate all that unify that data into one platform so that we can see across the group from from a holistic perspective and and build that single view of customer and that's now helped us sort of understand you know what our customers are doing in and what's important to them and how we can better support them and yeah and offer better services and what are you doing here at Red Hat this week what's what's the objective what are you doing what do you have you know I'm speaking you talking the folk what's the what's the solution with Red Hat well so yeah we're primarily here as a result of the Innovation Awards so we you know we were nominated and we're successful in our in our award for that category in our region which was wonderful we we're really honored with that so we're here because of that we sharing our customer story with the rest of the Red Hat team and the rest of the open-source community around really what it's meant for us to use open source within a big corporate that's kind of traditionally been based on a lot of vendor technology right a live Ben driven predominantly by the big tech vendors you know that have come in and sort of helped us build big solutions and platforms which which were great and wonderful in the fact that you know they they were there and they lasted like ten years plus and that was all good but now because things are changing so fast we need to be more adaptable and and unfortunately those platforms become so entrenched into the organization and and and sort of lock you in that it's a to adjust into it to be adaptable you can't you can't take it out very easily it doesn't even stack up sometimes from a business case so why would we take that technology out we'll just have to dig deeper and we'll just have to spend more right so we're trying to we're trying to re reverse-engineer some of that and the role open source for you guys have been part of new systems recruiting talent everything director what's been a benefit the impact of absolutely it's huge inand you're right I think one of the biggest benefits for us that that really plays out is there is in the talent side right for our people to say not only are we transitioning our organization as a whole and the way we the way we operate but we're really transitioning out people we're transition from kind of the work force that we that we had and they've got us to where we are today but we're now setting ourselves up for the workforce of the future and it is a different skill set it is a different way of approaching problems so you know bringing bring this new technology to the table and allowing people to experiment to learn and to update their skills and capabilities exactly what we what we need for our company so we're pushing that hard yeah that's great it's like a real cultural shift give me maybe transfer transfer over a little bit to the actual tech problem you had right so you multiple countries multiple data warehouses multiple systems yours so what were you looking at and then what was the solution that you kind of figured out and then when yeah when so when I first started the roll a couple of years back we had something like 23 different separate individual data warehouses there were all sort of interconnected and dependent on each other and had copies of each other in each other and it was just it was a little bit of a mess so so the first challenge was to really sort of rationalize and clean up a lot of that so so that's that's what we spent a fair bit of time upfront doing which was basically really acquiring the organization's data from a massive amount of call source systems so in the vicinity of I think we take data from roughly about 150 to 200 call systems and we want to take that data essentially in as close to real time as we possibly can and pump that into her into a and to a new clean unified data Lake right just to make that data all line up so that was the big challenge in the first instance and then the second instance was really a scale problem right so getting the right technology that would help us scale into you know because we've predominately been using our own data centers and keeping a lot of stuff you know in that sort of on-prem mode but we really wanted to be able you know self scale to not only to be able to you know take advantage of cloud infrastructure just to give us that extra computing that extra storage and processing but really also to be able to leverage the the commoditization that's happening in cloud right because you know all all cloud companies around the world commoditizing technology like machine learning and you know artificial intelligence so that it's it's it's available to lots of organizations and the way we see it is really that that we're not going to be able to compete or out engineer those those companies so we need to make it you know accessible and available for our people to be able to use and leverage that innovation on our work as well as is you know do some some smart stuff ourselves are using infrastructures of service OpenStack or what's your solution I mean what are you guys doing solution is yet to use I've been stack is is our first sort of real step into infrastructure-as-a-service so that's really helped us set up like I was showing this morning set up the capability for us to turn our scale in a really cost-efficient way and we've ported a lot of our traditional dedicated you know applications on infrastructure that you know was like appliance based and things like that on to OpenStack now so that we can it gives us a lot more portability and we can move that around and put that in the place where we think gets us the best value so so that's really helped I'm kind of curious you work with Red Hat consulting and was I was I was curious about that process did you was that the result of a kind of a bake-off or we were already Red Hat customers and said oh hey by the way can you give us some advice yeah it really came about I mean we've been working with Red Hat for many years you know and it started back just sort of in the support area of Linux and and rel and using that kind of capability and rit has been there for us for quite a long time now and I think we've sort of done some some Explorer exploratory type exercise with them around you know I've been shifting and The Container well but but what really started the stick was just getting their expertise in from our OpenStack perspective and when you that was a key platform that we really wanted to dive into an enable and so having them there is our partner and helping us provide that extra consulting knowledge and expertise was was what we really needed helped us deliver on that project and we delivered in a mazing ly tight timeframe so it was a fast delivery faster live what about the business impact why people look at OpenStack and some of these new technologies and certainly with the legacy stuff going on you have got all these things everywhere what was the actual business benefits can you highlight like did you get like faster time-to-market was it like a claims issue and what were the key things that you look back and saying well we kicked ass and we did these three things I mean really what it boils down to as faster time-to-market right and just the ability to move quicker so to give you an example the way we used to work is it would take you say probably weeks maybe even longer to to provision and get infrastructure stood up and ready to go for different projects so I meant that there was all this lead time that projects nearly go through before they could start to write code and even start to add value to to customer so we wanted to sort of take that away and and and and that was a that was a big hindrance to to be able to experiment and to be on a play we think so again we want to take that out of the picture in and really free people up to sort of say well the infrastructure is done and it spins up in a matter of seconds now on OpenStack and you can get on with the job of trying something out experimenting and actually delivering and writing code that will that will produce an outcome to launch new applications what was a specific outcome that came from standing up putting that over stack together I see you experimenting result not adding yeah not only in the app spice but more so the biggest the biggest sort of benefit with God is really in the data space where we've now been able to essentially stand up our entire data stack using open source technology and we've never been able to do that before and this is you know this is this is the environment it's allowed us to do that by just allowing for us to do that test and trial and say you know he's kafir you're gonna be the right tool for us is it you know is he gonna we're gonna use Post Chris whatever that is it's allowed us to sort of really do that in a rapid way and then figure that thing out and start to move forward so you know ask our kiss you guys have done a lot of work out there good work so I gotta ask you the question with kubernetes containers now part of the discussion as a real viable way to handle legacy but also new software development projects how do you look at that what it's what's the your your reaction to that as that practitioner yeah you guys excited yeah yeah things in motion what's your what's your color um absolutely it's in fact it's been something that we've kind of had on the radar for quite a while because we've we've we've been working with containers so dock in particular and and and one of the things that you know you come across this just management of containers and just ongoing maintenance of of those kind of things where they start to get a little bit unwieldy a little bit out of control so you know we've been trying to we try to start which started off trying to build our own you know in solution to that is there's a lot of corporates are doing quickly found out less that's it that's a huge engineering challenge so things like kubernetes that have now come along and the investment that's been put in that platform will really open up that avenue for and even seeing just the the new innovation that's been put into our OpenShift here that sort of takes a lot of that management and service you know administration out of the out of the equation few is wonderful for a company like us because at the end of the day we're an insurance company right we're not a we're not a technology engineering company while although we have some capability it's never going to be our our strengths right we're really here to service our customers and and to help them in the times when they need our help you guys are a data company data is critical for any trivet yeah how how is you how we've become more data-driven as a result of all this yeah so so now that we've got our data all in one place and we're able to get their single views of customers we're able to put that data now into the hands of people that can really add value to us so for example into our analytics teams and get them to look for optimization in price or in service claims processing all those kind of good things that that are helping our customers reduce the the time frames that they would normally go through in that part of that experience and I think one of the other things is not only that but also enrich our digital capability right and rich that digital channel so make it more convenient for customers you know where it used to be that customers would come along and it's literally like coming to the organization for the first time every time you know I say fill in that form again from blank you're like we don't know anything about you but now we're able to enrich your form exactly it's very painful I see your name and you know you wanted to show your house tell us all about that house you know what does it made of you know what what type of roof material what's the wall we know all that we've probably seen that house ten times already so why wouldn't we just be able to pre-populate that kind of information and make it more convenient forecasting personalization becomes critical absolutely absolutely I like the way you underscored and told the story just like with cloud you just can't take your broken old IT apps and just throw them up at the cloud you had to you had to do a data exercise and you had to do a consolidation and the cleaning strong and sure that involved open source but you didn't get the tech stack first first you have to picture picture data app and and that was a key part here yeah so that's difficult and that's you know that's one of the things that I think we really we really invested in it was because a lot of the time what we've seen is organizations have sort of attacked the low-hanging fruit like the the the kind of the external the digital data that they might be able to get but not that offline data that's been you know one and and generated by the branch and the call centers and all those kind of areas and we dug in deep and invested in that space and got that right first which really helped us a lot to accelerate and now we're I think we're in a better position we can definitely take advantage of that yeah thanks for sharing your insights here in the cube I gotta ask you a final question as the folks watching that they're looking at you say wow this guy he got down and dirty fixed some things he's gone forward innovative what advice would you give someone watching is pregnant practitioner what have you learned what's the learnings that you've that have been magnified out of this process for you and your view going forward yeah yeah there's a there's a lot of learnings we can share but I think some of the key ones is you know I think there's sometimes a bit of a bit of a sort of attempt to try and solve everything yourself right and and we definitely did that where I try and build it all yourself and do everything right but it's it's a challenge and and use partners and look for look for you know things that are kind of gonna help you accelerate and give you some of the foundational work you don't have to build yourself right you don't have to build everything yourself and I think that acknowledgement is really key so that was one of the big things for us the other thing is you know just just investing early and getting things right upfront life pulling your data and consolidating it into into a single platform even though that takes a lot of time and and it's and it's quite challenging to sort of go back and redo things that's actually a huge investment in a big winter to really help you accelerate at the end that investment upfront does does pay off so congratulations on your Innovation Award thank you Davis is general manager at I I AG insurance Australia group here inside the cube sharing the best practices it's it's a world you got to do the homework upfront open source is the way it's and it's an operating model for innovation the cube bringing you all the action here on day two of coverage stay with us for more live right after this short break

>> Presenter: From the Fairmont Hotel, in the heart of Silicon Valley, it's theCUBE. Covering When IoT Met AI The Intelligence of Things. Brought to you by Western Digital. >> Hey welcome back everybody, Jeff Frick here with theCUBE. We're in downtown San Jose at the Fairmont Hotel, at an event called When IoT Met AI The Intelligence of Things. You've heard about the internet of things, and on the intelligence of things, it's IoT, it's AI, it's AR, all this stuff is really coming to play, it's very interesting space, still a lot of start-up activity, still a lot of big companies making plays in this space. So we're excited to be here, and really joined by our host, big thanks to Western Digital for hosting this event with WDLabs' Dave Tang. Got newly promoted since last we spoke. The SVP of corporate marketing and communications, for Western Digital, Dave great to see you as usual. >> Well, great to be here, thanks. >> So I don't think the need for more storage is going down anytime soon, that's kind of my takeaway. >> No, no, yeah. If this wall of data just keeps growing. >> Yeah, I think the term we had yesterday at the Ag event that we were at, also sponsored by you, is really the flood of data using an agricultural term. But it's pretty fascinating, as more, and more, and more data is not only coming off the sensors, but coming off the people, and used in so many more ways. >> That's right, yeah we see it as a virtual cycle, you create more data, you find more uses for that data to harness the power and unleash the promise of that data, and then you create even more data. So, when that virtual cycle of creating more, and finding more uses of it, and yeah one of the things that we find interesting, that's related to this event with IoT and AI, is this notion that data is falling into two general categories. There's big data, and there's fast data. So, big data I think everyone is quite familiar with by this time, these large aggregated likes of data that you can extract information out of. Look for insights and connections between data, predict the future, and create more prescriptive recommendations, right? >> Right. >> And through all of that you can gain algorithms that help to make predictions, or can help machines run based on that data. So we've gone through this phase where we focused a lot on how we harness big data, but now we're taking these algorithms that we've gleaned from that, and we're able to put them in real time applications, and that's sort of been the birth of fast data, it's been really-- >> Right, the streaming data. We cover Spark Summit, we cover Flink, and New, a new kind of open source project that came out of Berlin. That some people would say the next generation of Spark, and the other thing, you know, good for you guys, is that it used to be, not only was it old data, but it was a sampling of old data. Now on this new data, and the data stream that's all of the data. And I would actually challenge, I wonder if that separation as you describe, will stay, because I got to tell you, the last little drive I bought, just last week, was an SSD drive, you know, one terabyte. I needed some storage, and I had a choice between spinning disc and not, and I went with the flat. I mean, 'cause what's fascinating to me, is the second order benefits that we keep hearing time, and time, and time again, once people become a data-driven enterprise, are way more than just that kind of top-level thing that they thought. >> Exactly, and that's sort of that virtual cycle, you got to taste, and you learn how to use it, and then you want more. >> Jeff: Right, right. >> And that's the great thing about the breadth of technologies and products that Western Digital has, is from the solid state products, the higher performance flash products that we have, to the higher capacity helium-filled drive technologies, as well as devices going on up into systems, we cover this whole spectrum of fast data and big data. >> Right, right. >> I'll give an example. So credit card fraud detection is an interesting area. Billions of dollars potentially being lost there. Well to learn how to predict when transactions are fraudulent, you have to study massive amounts of data. Billions of transactions, so that's the big data side of it, and then as soon as you do that, you can take those algorithms and run them in real time. So as transactions come in for authorization, those algorithms can determine, before they're approved, that one's fraudulent, and that one's not. Save a lot of time and processing for fraud claims. So that's a great example of once you learn something from big data, you apply it to the real-time realm, and it's quite dire right? And then that spawned you to collect even more data, because you want to find new applications and new uses. >> Right, and too kind of this wave of computing back and forth from the shared services computer, then the desktop computer, now it's back to the cloud, and then now it's-- >> Dave: Out with the edge. >> IoT, it's all about the edge. >> Yeah, right. >> And at the end of the day, it's going to be application-specific. What needs to be processed locally, what needs to be processed back at the computer, and then all the different platforms. We were again at a navigation for autonomous vehicles show, who knew there was such a thing that small? And even the attributes of the storage required in the ecosystem of a car, right? And the environmental conditions-- >> That's right. >> Is the word I'm looking for. Completely different, new opportunity, kind of new class of hardware required to operate in that environment, and again that still combines cloud and Edge, sensors and maps. So just the, I don't think that the man's going down David. >> Yeah, absolutely >> I think you're in a good spot. (Jeff laughing) >> You're absolutely right, and even though we try to simplify into fast data, and big data, and Core and Edge, what we're finding is that applications are increasingly specialized, and have specialized needs in terms of the type of data. Is it large amounts of data, is it streaming? You know, what are the performance characteristics, and how is it being transformed, what's the compute aspect of it? And what we're finding, is that the days of general-purpose compute and storage, and memory platforms, are fading, and we're getting into environments with increasingly specialized architectures, across all those elements. Compute, memory and storage. So that's what's really exciting to be in our spot in the industry, is that we're looking at creating the future by developing new technologies that continue to fuel that growth even further, and fuel the uses of data even further. >> And fascinating just the ongoing case of Moore's law, which I know is not, you know you're not making microprocessors, but I think it's so powerful. Moore's law really is a philosophy, as opposed to an architectural spec. Just this relentless pace of innovation, and you guys just continue to push the envelope. So what are your kind of priorities? I can't believe we're halfway through 2017 already, but for kind of the balance of the year kind of, what are some of your top-of-mind things? I know it's exciting times, you're going through the merger, you know, the company is in a great space. What are your kind of top priorities for the next several months? >> Well, so, I think as a company that has gone through serial acquisitions and integrations, of course we're continuing to drive the transformation of the overall business. >> But the fun stuff right? It's not to increase your staff (Jeff laughing). >> Right, yeah, that is the hardware. >> Stitching together the European systems. >> But yeah, the fun stuff includes pushing the limits even further with solid state technologies, with our 3D NAND technologies. You know, we're leading the industry in 64 layer 3D NAND, and just yesterday we announced a 96 layer 3D NAND. So pushing those limits even further, so that we can provide higher capacities in smaller footprints, lower power, in mobile devices and out on the Edge, to drive all these exciting opportunities in IoT an AI. >> It's crazy, it's crazy. >> Yeah it is, yeah. >> You know, terabyte SD cards, terabyte Micro SD cards, I mean the amount of power that you guys pack into these smaller and smaller packages, it's magical. I mean it's absolutely magic. >> Yeah, and the same goes on the other end of the spectrum, with high-capacity devices. Our helium-filled drives are getting higher and higher capacity, 10, 12, 14 terabyte high-capacity devices for that big data core, that all the data has to end up with at some point. So we're trying to keep a balance of pushing the limits on both ends. >> Alright, well Dave, thanks for taking a few minutes out of your busy day, and congratulations on all your success. >> Great, good to be here. >> Alright, he's Dave Tang from Western Digital, he's changing your world, my world, and everyone else's. We're here in San Jose, you're watching theCUBE, thanks for watching.

>> Narrator: From the Computer History Museum in the heart of Silicon Valley it's the Cube, covering Food IT: Fork to Farm brought to you by Western digital. >> Hi welcome back to the Cube. We are at the fourth annual Food IT: Fork to Farm event at the Computer History Museum. I'm Lisa Martin with my cohost Jeff Frick Very excited to to welcome our next guest, Paul Noglows, who is the executive producer of the Forbes AgTech Summit. Paul, welcome to the Cube. >> Thank you >> So we're in the heart of Silicon Valley right now, but you are the creator of the Forbes AgTech Summit, which happens tomorrow, June 28th and 29th in Salinas, the salad bowl of America. Talk to us about this event that you've created. What was the genesis of this, and why Salinas? >> We were doing a series at Forbes in 2014 called reinventing America, and we were going around cities mostly in the midwest, but we were mostly looking at industries that were really reinventing themselves and remaking themselves, so we focused on advanced manufacturing in Chicago, we focused on healthcare in Indianapolis, then we went up to Detroit and we focused on reinventing the workforce. So we did a series of five shows over 15 months. And the last one, we thought we were going to reinvent the farm, and we thought we were going to do it somewhere in the Midwest. But we got a proposal from the city of Salinas and they said, why don't you come out and see what we got here, and it's the salad bowl of the world, and I knew Monterey pretty well from having lived out here, and we used to take our kids down to the Monterey Aquarium, but I never really knew Salinas or the Salinas valley. So I got a tour from the former mayor, Dennis Donohue, and it was just we were blown away by how much was going on, and really, it's become the epicenter of AgTech innovation. We're just thrilled at Forbes that we were able to be part of that and to support it. And the summit has grown dramatically over the three years, and so we're really looking forward to a terrific show. >> Tell us about the growth that you've achieved in this summit. The opportunities, the types of people that are there, and what they are going to be able to see and discuss. >> Yeah, We started out with about 400 participants in the summer of 2015, we had 20 startups, but it's really mushroomed from there. This year, we're have 650 participants, we'll have 50 companies in the innovation showcase, we've expanded the field demos and the plant tours to a full day. About a good third of our audience are farmers, and that's really been the secret sauce for us. Is that we've priced the summit right. There's a lot of summits out there, and people are starting to get big numbers for an afternoon at the Marriot Marquee. Ours is really different, we've kept the rate low enough so that farmers can participate, and we love to have everyone outside. We do it all under giant white tent right out in front of the Taylor building on main street in Salinas, and we also have people out at the local processing plants and the local fields. We go out to Hartnell's Alisal campus and we use the USDA test field. >> Its interesting because Salinas has been at the forefront of Ag Innovation a long time ago. It was one of the first refrigerated rail cars to try to get fresh lettuce for salad to Chicago. I remember reading about that numerous times, and the first couple didn't work that well. >> Well it's really amazing. It's been such a privilege to deal with folks Bruce Taylor. It was Bruce's father and grandfather who really were the pioneers of iceburg lettuce. The more you get into it, you know, I've gotten really passionate about it and the history and everything else. You see the continuation today, and with the developments. And, even if it's a Taylor farm putting a startup's robotics, putting them in their processing plants. This is really the cutting edge of AgTech innovation. >> So I'm curious, we cover a lot of big tech events, usually more on the infrastructure side, this is really on the application side. So as you look at cloud, and edge computing, and big data, and mobile, and some of these big trends. What if you can just highlight some of the ones that really jump out to you that have enabled some of these innovations, autonomous vehicles obviously drones, we're seeing so much of it, but now they're putting it to work. >> Yeah, I think you're absolutely right. I mean, there's so much going on. We look in field robotics, we look at precision automation, precision agriculture, and the use of big data, and the ability to harness that and to really apply it, it's changed a lot of things. It's changed the way we can grow. It's also changing consumer's tastes in what consumers want. And that's a lot of what we're talking about here today. So it really has been revolutionary. I think we need the industry, we need to industry to really agriculture itself to get really get together. I think sometimes there still this is looked at as competitive advantage, so what I, we, find interesting is are we going to move beyond competitive advantage and what's good for your plant or your farm. Is there going a collective effort to really start applying this across the agricultural system. >> What are the interesting things that they talked about this morning in the general session was and the theme of the event. We're so used to farm to table, farm to fork, and I looked at that and fork to farm? The consumer is so empowered, very demanding. Right, we want cage free, we want organic, we want hormone free, we want, we've changed the distribution model. How are, but also there's this paradox of the consumer not wanting factory farms. How are farmers, you said quite a bit of the attendees are farmers, how are they embracing this consumer demand with technologies like big data, cloud computing, block chain? >> Well I think it's really the key. It's that you have different farmers and different processors. There's a wide spectrum in terms of adoption and in terms of innovation. But they are putting it to work, and that's why there's so much interest in the startups, and there's so much interest in how can we do this more efficiently, how can we do this better. I think it used to be that you basically needed to have a crisis, like the ecoli crisis, for things to really change in the industry. But hopefully, we've moved beyond that. In that it's not going to take a crisis for folks to really start embracing these new technologies. >> So then in the other trend that has come up in a number of times in doing some background in this show is that there's not only kind of the very organic, cage free specialty demands in the customer. On the other hand, the population is growing, and we got to feed 10 billion people, I think number is projected by 2050. There's no new dirt being created last time I checked, except in Hawaii. How are the farmers embracing that challenge specifically cause, it's kind of this bipolar thing, one you want to increase specialization, on the other hand you got to get yields way way up at massive scale. >> Well, and that's it, and it's really looking at how do you increase yield. This is a lot of the interest. This is a lot of the interest in genetics and everything else and looking at the real science of growing. But it's also interesting in this is a little bit more further afield, but I was talking to Bruce Taylor even about kale. You know 10 years ago kale was considered a throwaway crop. >> Right >> Paul: It wasn't even harvested. And now you look at the impact kale is having on the American diet and you know you have a crop that represented really nothing probably as recently as five years ago. >> Jeff: Right >> Now it's an important crop. So there's all sorts of innovation, all sorts of different ways of looking at things, but I do think for the most part that's the reason we have those things. We've always been adamant that we don't want to get people together to talk about 2050, we're not futurist. We're looking at near term solutions to current problems. So what we're really interested in, you know, what is the farm of 2020 look, not the farm of 2050. >> Jeff: Right, right >> As we look at California that's just come out of this severe drought, the event being hosted in the salad bowl of the, really, the world, what are some of the challenges that are really common across farms, across the heartland of America? Water, planting inefficiencies, harvesting or supply chains, are you seeing a lot of commonalities? >> There are a lot of commonalities. I think there's a mistake. We actually have a conversation tomorrow. I kind of feel like the assumption is all the water problems are over, and the water problems are not over. They maybe over for a short period of time, but I am fully convinced that this is going to be. Two years ago this was the topic du jour at our conference. I'd say this year probably the major topic is labor. And labor, you see, having tremendous impact. You have, across the country. And so, you have the issues of immigration, you've got issues of minimum wage, that certain farms are saying we don't know how we are going to do this. >> Lisa: Right >> We don't know how to make this work. But the major pressures, things like that water, labor, those haven't gone away, and those haven't been solved. But that's why we're all getting together. That's why we're here today, and that's why we're going to be down in Salinas Wednesday and Thursday. >> And on the labor front, it's that you've talked about the Californian minimum wage is going up quite considerably. But it's also things like an aging farming population, and there's, you can see the value there from a big data perspective to be able to capture, to facilitate some automation and drive the next generation of >> Paul: Well >> Lisa: the farmers. >> And one of the ways we're going to close our conference on Thursday afternoon is I'm going to moderate a discussion on farmers of the future. Because we've all heard it, we've all heard it time and time again. The average of the American farmer, I think it's pushing 70 years old, and there's no succession planning and that no body gets into this business unless they're basically born into it or forced into it in some way, and what we're finding is that it's not really true. We're putting up four young farmers, who are really making a difference, and who are applying innovation to be able to build their farms. And so, we think that it's actually more hopeful, and more interesting than may at first blush. So yeah, we do think there is a future for farming, and we're determined to explore it to its fullest. >> That's fantastic. Aught to be a fly on the wall on that conversation. Well Paul, thank you so much for joining us on the Cube, and we wish you the best of luck in your third annual Forbes AgTech Summit in the salad bowl. If you haven't been to Salinas, as Paul said, it's worth a drive down there, it's incredible. Roll down the window, take a nice breath in, and it's a beautiful place. And again, we wish you the best of luck at that summit, and we look forward to hearing about some of the great things that come out of that. >> Paul: Thank you >> And we want to thank you at the Cube at the Food IT: Fork to Farm event, I'm Lisa Martin with my cohost Jeff Frick. Stick around, we're going to be right back.

>> Narrator: Live (upbeat music playing) from Boston, Massachusetts. It's The Cube! Covering Red Had Summit 2017. Brought to you by Red Hat. >> Welcome back to The Cube's coverage of the Red Hat Summit here in Boston, Massachusetts. I'm your host, Rebecca Knight, we are joined by Andre Baumgart and Dorothee Rhein Straub of Swiss-based easiER AG; easiER AG is a Swiss-based emergency room management company. Dorothee tell us about the idea, where it started. >> I'm an MD. And working in emergency rooms for several years now. And I thought it's annoying how people have to wait if they want to be seen by a physician. And I thought, if I am able to make an appointment for a headrest or just reserve a seat in a movie, it should be able to make an appointment for an physician even in an emergency. And that's why I came up with the idea; it's like checking in in a hotel. It's so easily done on your phone and I shared my ideas with my partners, Andre and Kai, and they thought it's something worthwhile to pursue. That's how it came along. >> So, you're physicians and you saw this, a problem from the doctors' side, from the providers' side. >> Actually, I thought problem from the patients' side 'cause I'm trying to think for patient. And I'm more relaxed if I have a problem, myself, I'm more relaxed if I can sit at home and wait for an appointment or if I know that one of the physician will see me today; instead of trying to get there and just be sitting around an emergency room and waiting area. >> And what about the provider side, though? What is it like, for you too, as a physician, trying to make sure you're seeing all the patients that need you? >> I think one of the good things about this app is as well I can schedule my day, I can tell my employees what they will be expecting what kind of patients, I can trigger or schedule the workload as well. And you can keep in touch with your patients and I think that's a very important thing, to be in touch with your patients and your employees. That's one thing, too. >> So that was the problem you were trying to solve. >> Dorothee: Yeah. >> So, tell me, after she shared this idea with you, so then where did you go next? What was the next process in the, the next step in the process? >> After we discussed what to do with it, and we selled it internally to the hospitals management but, unfortunately, due to budgets and due to other projects strategically, they decided not to do it. And then we said, "hey, it's such a great idea "to have a booking.com-like emergency room "scheduling system that we should follow this, "right, and we should do it?" And then we said, "okay, let's start our own thing." And we discussed with whom you could do it and we found Kai as a perfect partner. And we said, "okay, let's do it together." And so the company started, essentially, and that was the foundation of easiER AG, then. Yeah? >> And then, and as you said, you couldn't find necessarily, the money, the backing at first. So, then you said, "where do we go, "where do we really now take this to the next level? And how, how did you get involved with Red Hat? >> I know Red Hat for quite some time through the Open Source community. I, myself, did development in the Chablis community. So, I know, Red Hat quite well for several years. So I know that the stack and the technologies they used evolved over time and now, with the announcement of these self-serve open-shift platforms , this was a, actually, or is a revolution for the technology side. And then, I saw last year, the innovational announcement and I- >> The light bulb went off. >> Right. And then I said, actually we tried for several months to find a partner that could support us in a very structured and modern way. And then, I said okay, let's try this. They are a big company, maybe we are too small for them but I emailed the innovational people and I got feedback and we matched for a discovery session. And the people were so nice, so engaging, so challenging, also, that in the end we came out with the plan for this innovational app. >> So, share with us a little bit about those early days, as you said, they were challenging you. What kind of questions were they asking? Because that is the whole point, is that they are trying to figure out what your minimum viable product could look like. So what kind o' questions were they asking you? How were they pushing you forward? >> I think you have to answer that. (laughing) >> Well, discovery session is there to really validate that the solution is sound that it has a market potential and that that you have a potential to solve this within a short time. In form of a minimum viable product, in order to show that this prototype really solves the problem and Red Hat has the technology then to scale this up to a really market solution. And that was a struggle to really validate, is this MVP able to do within a short time, A? And then, they challenge us as people, you know, are these guys really, can they do that? And can they market it in the end? Because, I mean, doing it for fun might be nice for some time but it's not really our goal. And that was the first challenges they made, then we did conceptualize the user journey from a medic perspective and also from a user perspective, patient perspective, and then we found out, okay, this might make sense to do it in an innovation lab matter, okay? And this was really a very sound approach. We had half a day for workshop, and it was actually perfect to map our ideas, to map the criteria they, you have for this approach, and then and we found together. Yeah? >> So, so, after the discovery process and persuading, I guess, the Red Hat people that you are the right people, that you are, in fact, the right team to bring this product to fruition. How did it work? What were you actually doing at your time at the lab? >> We went to Waterford, Ireland, for three days. Normally, the innovation labs, are, I think, three or four weeks, so that was really special for us. We went there, Andre, me, we had three developers of our own at the site and I think, about 12 people from Red Hat from, I think the best ones they really could get us. And we started early in the mornings, the whole day was scheduled, we had a, we built our case we wanted to do. And, you have to help me with the right words, >> Yeah, we did, essentially, what is called an event-storming; event-storming is what happens, what is really the app doing, step by step, in terms of a user experience, from the patient and the hospital or the doctors side. And then, this event-storming leads to a big board of what is happening as a process and you do that iteratively four or five times during one or two days in order to really engage all of the different levels of people from the developer to the business owner. As well as from the Red Hat side as as from our side of developers, so everybody's engaged in this process. And this is, I think, the innovative idea that you do not have a waterfall like, some people sit together and do it and then, you hand it over to the developers. You bring them together and you discuss it and make the case their own thing. And then they are fully engaged in realizing the product. And that was really the innovative part. >> When you told me that we are going to be on the innovation lab, I thought, "why me? What shall I be doing there?" There are all tech guys, I don't understand a word you are saying that's nothing really for me and, but I really saw it through quite fast 'cause it really makes sense that the business partners or the person who has the idea hat is there, 'cause you can really interfere very well and very fast and get to the point, what is needed. And it was really, it made sense to be there the whole time. >> It is very important that because you could see that sometime the ideas were flowing apart from the original business idea and that we were all people in the room together could ultimately control in every direction where this is heading and so, we had a really intensive two days in order to figure out how this event and system really should work as part of the innovation lab and then as a product for the MVP. >> Well that is so much of what we're talking about here at Red Hat. It's not just the tech, it's also how do people get into a room and get work done together and solve the problem that they're setting out to solve? And I think that you were talking about how you were in the room thinking, "why am I here?" But in fact, you are the, representing the user, from both the patient perspective, understanding what it's like to be in an emergency room and also the doctor perspective. So, how would you, sort of, bring it back and say, "hey, remember what we're doing here. "Remember the problem we set out to solve." >> Most of the time, I'll listen, but then, when I thought, "no that's not going "the direction I want it to be, or we want it to be" I just stood there, held my hand up and said, "No, we have to do it other way." Or, "I think that's not going to work," or "that's not the MVP." And they're really, they understood us very fast and at the beginning it was fascinating to see the Red Hat people and our own developers, everybody wanted to do it their style, 'cause they really are both very good. And it didn't take much time to combine them. And they really worked as a team. And everybody got one up step and it was nice to see. And I think it wasn't a problem to tell them what we think we should be, needed. And at the end, I think, we even got more than we discussed as an MVP. >> Andre: Mm, exaclty. >> After the three days. >> Okay, so so three days, you have the MVP. Where do we stand now with this easiER AG? >> We have an MVP after three days in Waterford. We figure out what to implement in sprints and then after, four, six weeks, we came out with the MVP that is essentially an app on a smart device for the doctor as well as the patient. And this is now working as we presented yesterday in the Keynote. >> Dorothee: Life. >> This is really, a valid product as it is and this can be applied now to healthcare trust or institutions so, if somebody wants to really use that they can do it because it's really working on an open-shift Red Hat innovative platform, right? And you can ultimately push the button and roll it out. I mean, this is really working, so. And, of course, what we have to do is user validation so, in terms of, is the use experience really perceivable independently for the users, this is something, user-testing we are doing right now in order to make it really perfectly user-friendly. And also, for the nurse side and the doctor side, that they can really use it easily, that's one of the most important things. >> And, do you have, are you, using at a hospital in Switzerland, countries around the world have different approaches to healthcare, different approaches to the emergency room, how, are you talking to other places about implementing this in other countries? In other parts o' the world? >> We are asking, we all have the same problems in healthcare. It doesn't matter where you life or where you work. I think it's all the same same problems and waiting times. >> And when you need emergency care, you need care. >> Yeah, you want to be taken care of and you want to be there really fast and you don't want to repeat every time the same sentences and the same problems to four or five people and, so, yeah, we're talking to health institutions at the moment, in Switzerland and Germany, but we hope to get there out soon in other countries as well. And I think this summit has opened many doors, and windows and we're looking forward to the future. >> Yeah, the process itself, that's the good thing, is totally independent of the context or country. It is the problem in any country or every country of the world so, we have a common approach to that and the only thing that needs to be changed it, maybe, is the hospital willing to accept that a certain automation takes place or not. And it can be fully automated or it could be done manually, right, and this is the decision of the healthcare institution or the trust who wants to implement that. So, we are flexible in that because of the technology of Red Hat because they provided the container that is really flexible in implementation. Right? And that's so great. >> Andre, Dorothee, thank you so much for your time, this is, has really been a lot o' fun learning about your company's journey. >> Together: Thank you so much for having us. >> I'm Rebecca Knight, stay tuned for more from the Red Hat Summit. (upbeat tone playing)

>> Voiceover: Live from Boston, Massachusetts, it's the Cube covering Red Hat Summit 2017. Brought to you by Red Hat. >> Hi, I'm Stu Miniman and welcome back to the three days of live coverage here at Red Hat Summit 2017. The sixth key note of the week just wrapped up. Everybody's streamin' out. We've got a couple more segments. Happy to welcome back to the program a couple gentlemen we had on actually the Open Stack Summit. John Allessio, who'd the vice president of - And Nick Hopman, who's the senior director of Emerging Technology Practices, both with Red Hat. Gentlemen, great to see you again. >> Great to see you again Stu, good afternoon. >> Yeah, so a year ago you guys launched this idea of the Open Innovation Labs. We're opening these labs this year. You've got some customers. We actually had Optum on earlier in the week. We're going to have the easiER AG guys on, I should say - I was corrected earlier this week. I shouldn't say guys, actually I think it's two doctors, a man and a woman that are on. >> Andre and Dorothy. Andre and Dorothy - so really amazing customer testimonials for working through. So John, why don't you start with, you know, give us the update on the innovation lab program. Open and innovation get, you know, discussed a lot. Give us the real meat of what happens. >> So, just maybe a quick recap. >> Yeah. >> So Stu, we had about oh a year and a half ago or so, our strategic advisory board tell us, Red Hat, we really are looking for you to help show us the way in how to develop software, but also kind of help us leverage this culture that Red Hat has and developing software the Red Hat way. And so we worked with about a dozen clients across the globe, got a lot of great feedback on what they were looking for. We created an offering and then we launched it, as you said in Austin at Open Stack Summit. And now we've done many engagements in Europe and in North America across multiple different industries. We had here at the Summit this week actually two clients talk on the main stage, both Optum and easiER AG. And both of them have been through innovation lab engagements. Very different industries, very different clients, but what it has proven in both cases is it's really been a great way and a great catalyst to kind of spark innovation, whether it's within an existing IT infrastructure or building out some capability in particular customer environments, like we did with Optum, or kind of taking some ideas. And I'll let Dorothy and Andre tell their story when they come on and work with you. I don't want to take their thunder. But a great way to show you how we can work with a start up and really help them kind of take their vision and make it reality in an application. >> Yeah, Nick, you know, we've done so many interviews about the various pieces, lots of interesting business. It reminds me of that kind of pipelining that you talk about. One of the announcements this week was Open Shift IO, which it helps with kind of the application modernization. Can you maybe help us, you know, put together how the products that Red Hat does and what you're doing in the Open Innovation Labs, how do those go together and mesh and new stuff come in? >> It's actually kind of at the core of what we do anyway. So, we are building on top of the foundation, the technologies at Red Hat's core platform. But in a residency with Open Innovation Labs we are tying in other technologies, other things outside of the Stack. But with like Open Shift IO, what we've created was what we called the push button infrastructure. How are we showing with the process and everything to innovate on top of the Red Hat technology? How do we accelerate that journey? And so we created what was called the push button infrastructure to show that foundational acceleration, and Open Shift IO is actually now kind of part of that core. And adding in other components, other technologies that Red Hat has, whether it's our ISV partners, things in Open Shift commons, all those things to accelerate the application development experience. And so I think with Open Shift IO and as Red Hat continues to evolve in the development kind of tooling landscape, you're going to see how we are helping our customers do cloud data of application development more so than ever before. >> Yep, and maybe to add to that too, Nick, we were talking to a client this morning about some of their challenges and their priorities for this current physical year, And that particular client was talking about Jenkins and a number of non-Red Hat technologies as well because at the end of the day, our customers have Red Hat products, have non-Red Hat products. I think the great thing that maybe you can mention is when you look at that push button infrastructure that we've built, it's not really a Red Hat thing, although it clearly is tied to the Red Hat technology. But it's even bigger than that. And I think that would be important for the team to understand. >> Yeah so we actually have online is what we call our text stack, and it allows the customer to kind of select the current technologies that we've currently got integrated into our push button infrastructure, and it's always evolving. So I think what we're trying to bring to the table from a technology perspective is our more prescriptive approach. But it's always changing, always evolving. So if customers are wanting to use x or y technology, we're able to integrate with that. But even more so, if you take that technology to the foundation, put a couple of droplets of the Red Hat DNA and the culture is really where that innovation and that inspiration kind of where it's - it's culminating on top of it. So they're building out the applications, like the easiER AG examples. >> John: Yeah, excellent. >> It's great, I always love - By the time we get to the end here, oh I see some of the common threads. You know, for example, Ansible's acquired a year and a half ago, boy we've seen Ansible you know weave it's way into a lot of products. >> Nick: Sure. >> Was talking to Ashush just a sort while ago. And the Open Stack commons, which reflected what you were just talking about is customers are coming, they're sharing their stories. And it's not all Red Hat pieces. One thing I think, I go to a lot of technology shows, and it's usually, "Oh, well we want to talk about solutions." But by these pieces, and Red Hat at it's core it's all open source, and therefore there's always going to be other pieces that tie in. How do you extend as to how much of this is driven by the Red Hat business versus you know the problems of the customer? I'm sure those mesh together pretty well, but maybe some learning you've had over the last year that you could share on that. >> Sure. I think one of the great starting points Stu is what we try and do in every case is start with what we call is a discovery session. So it's one of our consultants, or one of our solution architects really going into the client and having a discussion around what is the business problem we're trying to solve, or what is the business opportunity we're trying to capitalize upon. And from there, you know we have a half day to a day kind of discussion around what these priorities are, and then we come back to them with the deliverable that says okay, here's how we could solve that problem. Now there will be areas that we of course think we have Red Hat technology that absolutely is a perfect fit. We're going to put it in and make that as a recommendation. But there's going to be other technologies that we're also going to recommend as well. And I think that's what we've learned in these Innovation Lab engagements. Because often it's a discussion with IT of course, but also a discussion with line of business. And sometimes what happens in these discovery sessions is sometimes it's the line of business and IT perhaps connecting for the first time on this particular topic. And so we'll come back with that approach and it'll be an approach that's tailored to that customer environment. >> One thing kind of pivots a little bit from the topic of the technology, but I mean the culture and how we're doing this. I mean we are working with ISV's and things of how they could come through the residency to get things spun up into Open Shift commons and get their technology in the Stack or integrated with Red Hat's technical solutions. But on the other hand, you know really when they come in and they work with us, they're driving forward with looking at you know changes of their culture. They're trying to do digital transformation. They're trying to do these different types of things, but working with that cross-functional team. They're coming up with, oh wow, we were solving the problems the wrong way. And that's kind of just the point of the discovery session, figuring out what those business challenges are is really kind of what we're bubbling up with that process. >> Yeah, I'm curious. When I think to just open innovation, even outside of the technology world, sometimes we can learn a lot from people that aren't doing the same kind of things that we've been doing. I know you've got a couple of case studies here, customers sharing their stories, but how do we allow the community to learn more? When they get engaged in the innovation lab are customers sharing a little bit more? We know certain industries are more open to sharing than others, but what are they willing to share? What don't they share? How do you balance that kind of security if you will of their own IP as separate from the processes that they're doing? >> John: Sure. >> It's actually kind of interesting, we had a story this week, we have an engagement going on in our London space, which will be launching in a week and a half. But they're going on right now. And there was a customer that was kind of coming through for a regular executive briefing if you will. And we walked him through the space. And they saw the teams working in there and they were before in the sales kind of meaning, they were a little bit close-minded and close-sourced if you will. Trying to not want to share some of their core nuggets of their IP if you will. And once they saw kind of the collaborative landscape, and this is not even technology based, but just the culture of an open conversation. You know I hate to overuse - you know the sticky notes everywhere, the dev ops. I mean they were really doing a conversation with the customer that was engaging. And all of a sudden the customer that was there on the sales conversation goes, "I want to do this session, I want to go through this discovery session with you guys." And so I think customers are trying to do that. And the other thing is, in our spaces and in our locations, like Boston, we are actually having two team environments, and we've designed it to try and create collisions. So they're basically on two sides, but there's also a common area in the middle where we're trying to create those collisions to inspire that open conversation with our clients as well. Some may be comfortable with it, some might not be as comfortable with it, but we're going to challenge them. >> Nick, I love that term collisions. There's a small conference I go to in Providence. Haven't made it every year, but a few times. It's an innovation conference. And they call it the random collision of unusual suspects. It's the things we can learn from the people we don't know at all. Unfortunately, we're too much. You know, we know the people we know. We know a lot of the same information that we know. If somebody outside of the like three degrees of separation that you might find, that next really amazing thing that will help us move to the next piece, it brings me to my next point. You mentioned London and Boston, how do you decide where you're building your next centers, what's driving that kind of piece of it? And, you know, bring us up to speed as the two new locations, one of which if we had a good arm we might be able to throw a baseball and hit. >> Excellent, so let me just start by first of all saying, you know part of what we're doing here is it's this experiential residency is what it is. And that residency can happen at a client location, at a Red Hat location, or even a pop-up you know kind of third party location. And quite frankly, over the course of the last year, we've done all three of those scenarios. So all three of them are valid. As far as it relates to a Red Hat facility, what we try and do is find a location if we can that's either co-located with a large percentage of Red Hat clients, and or maybe Red Hat engineering. Because oftentimes we'll want to bring some of the engineers into these sessions. So, Mountain View, where we have a center today was a natural 'cause we have some engineering capability out on the west coast. And Boston is of course very natural as well because we have a very large engineering presence here in Boston. In fact, I'll let you talk a little bit about the Boston center 'cause that's going to be our next one that opens here in just a few weeks. So maybe Nick, talk a bit about you know what we're doing in the Boston center, which will be, if you will, our world wide hub for Red Hat innovation. It's not just going to be the Boston center, it's also going to be our world wide hub. >> No pun intended that it's in the hub that is Boston. >> You got it, you got it! >> Excellent. >> So you know, what are we doing in the innovation center, and the engineering center, and the customer briefing center all co-located in Boston. >> Yeah so it's actually going back to the collisions. We've even try and create collisions in our own organization. So it's actually an eight-shaped building. We've got four floors, or two floors on each side. So kind of effectively four floors. Engineering on one side on two floors, and an EBC on a floor above the Open Innovation Labs, and the Open Innovation Labs on the third floor if you will. And there's actually floor cut-outs, so people you know if they're coming in from an executive briefing, they can see down, see what's going on there. And then engineering on the other side. And the point there is that open culture just even within our organization, working with the engineers across the board, getting them over into our space, working with us to solving the problems. And showing, you know, I think the key point that I would hit on there is really trying to inspire customers what it's like to work in a community. So community powered innovation. All those types of things. And so the space is trying to do that. The collisions, the openness obviously, flexibility, but also what we're trying to do is create a platform or a catalyst of innovation. And whether or not it's in the location or pop-up location, we're trying to show the customer some of these principals that we're seeing that's effectively allowing Red Hat to drive the innovation, and how they can take that back into their own. So, you know the locations are great for driving a conversation from a sales perspective, and just overall showcasing it. But the reality is we've got this concept to innovate anywhere. We want to be able to take our technology, our open culture, everything you would want to use and go be able to take that back into your organization. 'Cause our immersive experience is only you know, it's kind of camp for coders or camp for the techies if you will. So you know that's working well, but that's not long term. Long term we have to show them how they can drive it forward, you know with themselves. >> Where do I sign up for the summer program? (all laugh) >> It's coming this summer. >> So Boston will launch in the end of June. >> End of June, early July. >> And the June timeframe we had, I don't know how many dozens of clients, and partners, and Red Hatters go through in hard hat tours this week, here at the Summit. And then in two weeks, we'll open in downtown or really in the heart of London. >> Stu: Alright, yeah, quick flat flight across the pond to get to London. Anything special about that location? >> I think just overall the locations all have a little bit of uniqueness to them. I they're definitely - we did design them to inspire innovation, thinking outside the box. So I think you know, if you go visit one of our locations you might a couple kind of hidden rooms if you will. Some other unique things. But overall, they are just hubs in general for the regions. Hubs of technology and innovation. And so from the go forward perspective I mean we are trying to say, you know, Red Hat is doing things different, thinking different. And these are kind of a way to show it. So trying to find that urban location that is a center point for people to be able to travel in and be able to experience that is really kind of the core. >> So London will open in two weeks, and then we're already working on blueprints for Singapore. >> Singapore, yeah. >> For our Asia hub, and had some great conversations with our leader for Latin America about some very initial plans for Latin America as well. So you know, we'll have great presence across the globe. We'll be able to bring this capability to customer sites. We've already done that. We'll be able to do pop ups. 'Cause even in some cases customers are saying you know we don't want to travel, but we want to get out of our home environment so we can really focus on this and have that immersive experience, and that intimate experience. So we'll do the pop ups as well. >> Driving change, we are seeing that that's the best way. Especially with this kind of, you know, the residency. It is a time box. So if we get them out of their day to day, some of the things, you know, sometimes are the things that are holding them out. Get them in the pop up location, get them outside of their space. All of a sudden their eyes open up. And we had a large retailer, international retailer that we did a project with on the west coast, and getting them out of their space got them coming back. The actual quotes from their executives and the key stakeholders were like they came back fired up. >> Stu: Yeah. >> And they came back motivated to try to make change without our organization. So it's disruption on every level. >> Yeah, you can't underestimate the motivation and the spirit that people come out of these engagements with. It's like a renewed sense of, "I can do this." And we saw that exactly with this retail engagement of really already working on preparing for Black Friday, and putting some great plans in place and really building that out for them. >> John Allessio, Nick Hopman; we always love digging in about the innovation. Absolutely something that excites most people of our industry. That doesn't? Maybe you're in the wrong industry. >> Exactly. >> We've got a couple more interviews. Stay tuned with us. I'm Stu Miniman, you're watching the Cube. (light music)