>> from our studios in the heart of Silicon Valley, Palo Alto, California. It is a cute conversation. >> Everyone. Welcome to this Special Cube conversation here at the Palo Alto Cube Studios. I'm John for a host of Cuba here. Moritz man is the head of the product management team at Open Systems A G. Great to see you again. Thanks for coming in. >> Hey, John. Thanks for having me. >> So last time we spoke, you had your event in Las Vegas. You guys are launching. You have a new headquarters here in Silicon Valley. Opened up this past spring. Congratulations. Thank you. >> Yeah, it's a great, great venue to start, and we set foot on the Silicon Valley ground. So to make our way to >> I know you've been super busy with the new building and rolling out, expanding heavily here in the Valley. But you guys were in the hottest area that we're covering Security Cloud security on premise, security. The combination of both has been the number one conversation pretty much in the cloud world right now. Honestly, besides a normal cloud, native cloud I t hybrid versus multi cloud out. See, that continues to be the discussion I think there's no more debate around multi cloud in hybrid public clouds. Great people gonna still keep their enterprises. But the security equation still is changing this new requirements. What's the latest that you guys are seeing with respect to security? >> Yeah. So, John, what we see is actually that cloud adoption had happens at different speeds. So you have usually the infrastructure of the service. Adoption would happens in a quite controlled way because there's a lift in shift. Do you have your old data center? You you take it and you transferred into azure I W S O G C P. But then there's also uncontrolled at option, which is in the SAS space. And I think this is where a lot off data risk occur, especially the wake off GDP are on where we see that this adoption happens. Maurin a sometimes control, but sometimes in a very uncontrolled way, >> explain that the uncontrolled and controlled expansion of of how security and multi cloud and cloud is going because this interesting control means this this plan's to do stuff uncontrolled means it's just by other forces explain uncontrolled versus controls >> eso controlled specifically means the IittIe team takes as a project plan and aches servers and workloads and moves them in a controlled fashion or in a dedicated project to the cloud. But what happened in the business world of business I t is actually did use those share content at any time with any device at any at any time and in all locations. So this is called the Mobile Enterprise on the Cloud First Enterprise. So it means that the classical security perimeter and the controls in that are my past, actually, by the path of least resistance or the shortest path >> available. And this is the classic case. People use Dropbox with some, you know, personal things. They're at home, they're at work, a p I based software. That's what you're getting at the >> and the issue of this is that that the data that has bean, like contained an pera meters where, you know, as it Caesar, where your data is. This has bean deployed too many edge devices, too many mobile devices, and it's get it gets shared, a nun controlled way. >> We'll get a couple talk tracks would like to drill down on that, because I think this is the trend. We're seeing a pea eye's dominant. The perimeter on the infrastructure has gone away. It's only getting bigger and larger. You got I, O. T and T Edge just and the networks are controlled and also owned by different people. So the packets of moving on it that's crazy so that that's the reality. First, talk track is the security challenge. What is the security challenge? How does a customer figure out what to do from an architectural standpoint when they're dealing with hybrid and multi cloud? So first of >> all, um, customers or BC enterprises try need to re think their infrastructure infrastructure centric view off the architecture's. So the architecture that had been built around data send us needs to become hybrid and multi cloud aware. So that means they need to define a new way off a perimeter, which is in cloud but also in the covering. Still the old, so to say, legacy hyper data center set up, which has the data still in the old data center and at the same time, they need to open up and become the cloud themselves, so to say, and but still draw a perimeter around their data and they users and not and their applications and not so much anymore around the physical infrastructure. >> So taking, changing their view of what a security product is, Is that really what you're getting at? >> Yeah, So the issues with the product point solution was that they fixed a certain part off off a tactile issue. So if you take a firewall in itself, firewall back then it was like a entry door to a big building, and you could could decide who comes out goes in. Now. If the the kind of the walls of the building are vanishing or arm or more FIC, you need to come over the more integrated concept. So having these stacked appliance and stacked security solutions trying to work together and chain them doesn't work anymore. So we think and we see that, >> Why is that? Why doesn't it work? Because in >> the end, it's it's it's hardly two to operate them. Each of those points solutions have their own end off life. They have their own life cycle. They have their own AP eyes. They have their own TCO, as all that needs to be covered. And then there's the human aspect where you have the knowledge pools around >> those technologies. So as an enterprise you have to content to continuously keep the very scar security experts to maintain content continues the depreciating assets running right, >> and they're also in it. We weren't built for tying into a holistic kind of platform. >> Yeah, What we see is that that enterprises now realize we have data centers and it's not accepted reality that you can abstracted with the cloud. So you have You don't own your own servers and buildings anymore. So you have a PAX model to subscribe to Cloud Service is and we think that this has to happen to security to so shift from cap ex to our pecs and the same way also for operational matters >> securities. The service is a crepe is a small I want to ask you on that front you mentioned mobile users. How do you secure the mobile uses when they use cloud collaboration? Because this is really what uses expect, and they want How do you secure it? >> So be secured by by actually monitoring the data where it actually gravitates, and this is usually in the cloud. So we enforce the data that is in transit through, ah, proxies and gators towards the cloud from the endpoint devices, but also then looking by AP eyes in the cloud themselves to look for threats, data leakage and also sandbox. Certain activities that happened. There >> are the next talk talk I want to get into is the expansion to hybrid and multi cloud so that you guys do from a product standpoint, solution for your customers. But in general, this is in the industry conversation as well. How how do you look at this from a software standpoint? Because, you know, we've heard Pat Gelsinger of'em were talking about somewhere to find Data Center S d n. Everything's now software based. You talk about the premiere goes away. You guys were kind of bring up a different approaches. A software perimeter? Yeah, what is the challenge for expanding to multi cloud and hybrid cloud? >> So So the challenge for enterprise and customers we talked to is that they have to run their old business. Gardner once called it by motile business, and it's still adopting not one cloud, but we see in our surveys. And this is also what market research confirms is that customers end up with 2 to 3 loud vendors. So there were will be one or two platforms that will be the primary to their major majority of applications and data gravity. But they will end up and become much more flexible with have running AWS, the old Davis Center. But it was the G, C, P and Azure, or Ali Baba glowed even side by side, right tow cover the different speeds at what their own and the price runs. And >> so I gotta ask you about Cloud Needed was one of the things that you're bringing up that just jumps in my head. And when I got to ask, because this is what I see is a potential challenge. It might be a current challenges when you have kubernetes growing such a rapid rate. You see the level of service is coming online much higher rate. So okay, people, mobile users, they're using the drop boxes, the boxes and using all these FBI service's. But that's just those wraps. As a hundreds and thousands of micro service is being stood up and Tauron down in there, you guys are taking, I think, an approach of putting a perimeter software premieres around these kinds of things, but they get turned on enough. How do you know what's clean? It's all done automatically, so this is becoming a challenge. So is this what you guys mean when you say software perimeter that you guys could just put security around things at any time? Is that explain this? >> Yeah, So? So if you talk about the service match so really mashing cloudy but native functions, I think it's still in the face where it's, I would say, chaos chaotic when you have specific projects that are being ramped up them down. So we draw a perimeter in that specific contact. So let's say you have You're ramping up a lot off cloud a function AWS. We can build a pyramid around this kind off containment and look especially for threats in the activity locks off. The different component is containers, but from from a design perspective, this needs to be, uh, we need to think off the future because if you look at Mike soft on AWS strategy, those containers will eventually move Also back to the edge. Eso were in preparing that to support those models also cover. Bring these functions closer back again to the edge on We call that not any longer the when, ej but it will become a cloud at at actually. So it's not an extension of the land that comes to the data. It's actually the data and the applications coming back to the user and much closer. >> Yeah. I mean, in that case, you could define the on premises environment has an edge, big edge, because this is all about moving, were close and data around. This is what the new normal is. Yeah, So okay, I gotta ask the next question, which is okay, If that's true, that means that kubernetes becomes a critical part of all this. And containers. How do you guys play with that at all? >> So we play with us by by actually looking at data coming from that at the moment. We're looking at this from a from a data transit perspective. We But we will further Maur integrate into their eighties AP eyes and actually become part off the C I C D. Process that building then actually big become a security function in approval and rolling out a cannery to certain service mesh. And we can say, Well, this is safe for this is unsafe This is, I think, the eventual goal to get there. But But for now, it's It's really about tracking the locks of each of those containers and actually having a parent her and segmentation around this service mash cloud. So to say, >> I think you guys got a good thing going on when you talk about this new concept that's of softer to find perimeter. You can almost map that to anything you get. Really think everything has its own little perimeter workload. Could be moving around still in these three secure. So I gotta ask on the next talk Trek is this leads into hybrid cloud. This is the hottest topic. Hybrid cloud to me is the same as multi cloud. Just kind of get together a little bit different. But hybrid cloud means you're operating both on premises and in the cloud. This is becoming a channel most si si SOS Chief admission Security officers. I don't want to fork their teams and have multiple people coding different stacks. They don't want the vendor lock in, and so you're seeing a lot of people pulling back on premises building their own stacks, deploying in the cloud and having a seamless operation. What is your definition of hybrid? Where do you see hybrid going? And how important is it? Have a hybrid strategy. >> So I think the key successfactors of a hybrid strategy is that standards standardization is a big topic. So we think that a service platform that to secure that like the SD when secure service platform rebuilt, needs to be standardized on operational level, but also from a baseline security and detection level. And this means that if you run and create your own work, those on Prem you need to have the same security and standard security and deployment standard for the clout and have the seamless security primary perimeter and level off security no matter where these these deployments are. And the second factor of this is actually how do you ensure a secure data transfer between those different workloads? And this is where S T win comes into play, which acts as a fabric together with when backbone, where we connect all those pieces together in a secure fashion >> where it's great to have you on the Q and sharing your insight on the industry. Let's get into your company. Open systems. You guys provide an integrated solution for Dev Ops and Secure Service and Security Platform. Take a minute to talk about the innovations that you guys were doing because you guys talk a lot about Casby. Talk a lot about integrated esti when but first define what Casby is for. The audience doesn't know what Casby is. C. A S B. It's kicked around all of the security conscious of your new to security. It's an acronym that you should pay attention to so defined casby and talk about your solution. >> Eso casby isn't theory. Aviation means cloud access security we broker. So it's actually becoming this centralized orchestrator that that allows and defines access based on a trust level. So saying, um, first of all, it's between networks saying I have a mobile workforce accessing SAS or I s applications. Can't be it in the middle to provide security and visibility about Where's my data moving? Where's married? Where do I have exposure off off GDP, our compliance or P C. I or he power risks And where is it exposed to, Which is a big deal on it's kind of the lowest level to start with, But then it goes further by. You can use the Casby to actually pull in data that that is about I s were close to toe identified data that's being addressed and stored. So are there any incidentally, a shared data artifacts that are actually critical to the business? And are they shared with extra resource is and then going one step further, where we then have a complete zero trust access model where we say we know exactly who can talkto which application at any time on give access to. But as everything this needs to be is in embedded in an evolution >> and the benefit ultimately goes to the SAS applications toe, have security built in. >> That's the first thing that you need to tackle. Nowadays, it's get your sass, cloud security or policy enforced on, but without disrupting service on business on to actually empower business and not to block and keep out the business >> can make us the classic application developer challenge, which is? They love to co they love the build applications, and what cloud did with Dev Ops was abstracted away the infrastructure so that they didn't have to do all this configuration. Sister. Right? APs You guys air enabling that for security? >> Exactly. Yeah. So coming back to this multi protein product cloud would, which is not keeping up anymore with the current reality and needs of a business. So we took the approach and compared death ops with a great service platform. So we have engineers building the platform. That's Integrated Security Service Platform, which promotes Esti Wen managed Detection response and Caspi Service is in one on the one platform which is tightly integrated. But in the in the customer focus that we provide them on or Pecs model, which is pretty, very predictable, very transparent in their security posture. Make that a scalable platform to operate and expand their business on. >> And that's great. Congratulations. I wanna go back for the final point here to round up the interview for the I T. Folks watching or, um, folks who have to implement multi cloud and hybrid cloud they're sitting there could be a cloud architect that could be an I T. Operations or 90 pro. They think multi cloud this in hybrid club. This is the environment. They have to get their arms around. How? What >> should they >> be thinking about? Around multi cloud and hybrid cloud. What is it, really? What's the reality now? What >> should they be considering for evaluation? What are some of the key things that that should be on their mind when they're dealing with hybrid cloud and all the opportunity around it? >> So I think they're they're like, four key pieces. Oneness. Um, they think they still have to start to think strategic. So what? It's a platform and a partner That helps them to plan ahead for the next 3 to 5 years in a way that they can really focus on what their business needs are. This is the scalability aspect. Secondly, it's a do. We have a network on security, our architecture that allows me to grow confidently and go down different venues to to actually adopt multi clouds without worrying about the security implication behind it. Too much, uh, and to implement it. And third is have this baseline and have this standardized security posture around wherever the data is moving, being at Mobil's being it SAS or being on Prem and in clouds workloads, the fourth pieces again, reading, thinking off where did you spend most of my time? Where do I create? Create value by by defining this framework so it really can create a benefit and value for the enterprise? Because if you do it not right your not right. You will have a way. You will end up with a an architecture that will break the business and not accelerated. >> Or it's made head of product that open systems here inside the Cube studios. Um, great job. Must love your job. You got the keys. A lot of pressure. Security being a product. Head of product for security companies. A lot of pressure before we wrap up. Just give a quick plug for the company. You guys hiring you have a new office space here in Redwood City. Looks beautiful. Give a quick shared play for the company. >> Yeah. So open systems the great company to work with. We're expanding in the U. S. On also, Amy, uh, with all the work force. So we're hiring. So go on our website. We have a lot off open positions, exciting challenges in a growth or into workspace. Andi. Yeah. As you said, security at the moment, it's one of the hottest areas to be in, especially with all the fundamental changes happening in the enterprise and architecture. I d landscape. So yeah, >> and clouds securing specifically. Not just in point. The normal stuff that people used to classify as hot as hot as Hades could be right now. But thanks for coming on. Strong insights. I'm jumping with Cuba here in Palo Alto with more Morris Man is the head of product management for open systems. Thanks for watching.

>> live from Anaheim, California. It's the queue covering nutanix dot next twenty nineteen Brought to you by nutanix. I'm >> just going to hear you. >> Welcome back, everyone to the cubes. Live coverage of dot Next here at the Anaheim Convention Center in California. I'm your host, Rebecca Night, along with my co host, John Furrier. We are welcoming to the Cube. George Canuck. He is the vice president. Worldwide sales and channels absent us. Thank you so much for coming on the Q. >> Thanks for having me excited to be here. >> So here we are on the convention floor. Sixty five hundred attendees. You actually have a booth here? Yes, you do, actually. Right over >> there. Take a look. Orange logo. >> Very handsome logo. So tell it for our viewers who are not familiar with your company. Tell your Austin, Texas based tell tell our viewers a little bit about what you do. What's what sentences about? >> Sure. So we help professionals do something really important, ultimately solving a big problem for them, which is keeping customers happy. So we're looking at we provide a suffer platform that looks at all of the underlying infrastructure that's actually supporting the application itself. So they're trying to deliver APS and services their customers a happy customers. Somebody clicks their phone or their laptop and just gets to that service. We make sure that that app is available and healthy, but looking at everything underneath it. Whether that's Ah hybrid cloud, it's a private hcea type cloud as well. Or it's micro services or its legacy infrastructure. It doesn't matter. We talk to it and we help make sure that everything's working properly. >> But it works the way it's supposed to >> exactly way had the chief product officer on scene eel from New Chantix talking about hyper convergence. The benefits of that Yeah, it's also thought the hyper converge clouds, I guess, with the lack of a better description that that rules going there, too, When you start to get into this resetting of the infrastructure elements on premises and also in hybrid multi cloud Yeah, a lot of problems arise. They did a huge issue. So can you give us some color commentary on your thoughts on where customers are here summer summer like, Well, we're not there yet. Summer stuck running out of gas or stuck in the mud, and some just saying, you know, we're all in on the cloud, So different profile makeups of sure Wow, adoption. >> Yeah, let me talk about a little bit. So I heard a stat recently that the current adoption of enterprises for clouds about ten percent. So ten per cent of workloads today in the cloud doesn't mean that there isn't a lot of growth and a lot of people aren't trying it, but only ten percent are there. And in a lot of cases, the more progressive organizations actually did move workload with cloud they got there. They found out that maybe things were more expensive than they thought or didn't quite perform well and they took a step back and retooled it. It really was for Nutanix, I think personally Ah, very good time for them to step in with this notion of a private cloud. It's sort of that step in between for some of them. However, when you look at it from our perspective, we you know, we've been around since two thousand five. We started his open source and moved into a commercialized product. We've worked with some of the biggest banks. Insurance companies tell echoes and even MSP is in the world. We've seen that the certain workloads have moved to the cloud pretty quickly or too hyper converged. But yet there's still a lot that hasn't and there's a lot of unknowns that air there. In some cases, it's a function of Is the team ready to make the move and other cases? Is the culture of the organization ready to make the move? For us? It doesn't matter because we can look at all of it. But we can make it easier for them because we actually help them. Look at the various workloads in the performance of those abs and how how they would perform. And they make a move to the >> T. Want to get your thoughts on the psychology of the the environment, the buyer or the abuser. Whenever is a changeover to new technology or new desktop or, you know, cloud, the expectation is better run better, so coming around faster and better, better user experience. Yes, so this kind of puts you guys on the pressure cooker because you guys have toe monitoring starts working worse than it was before. Yeah, so table stakes now is be better. Be faster whether it's a VD, I roll out or cloud implementation. How do you guys hate a lead? >> We know there's there's a piece that actually happens before that. So the first step that we see that happens for organizations making the move is actually rationalizing the views of the truth. That makes sense. And so, in a lot of organizations, there are different silos. I've been in meetings where the Dev Ops team, the same team running service now, for example, and the cops are meeting each other, shaking hands and saying, Hi, Jane. Hi, Bob. Great to meet you for the first time. And that is being Those meetings are being held by what I'LL say are more progressive leaders, the CEOs and GPS. But the first thing that happens is every group says we'LL have this basket of tools that I'm using to make sure that my customers are happy and they have to rationalize all that one of our customers. Huntington Bank had thirty seven tools in place to look at every single part of the business and get that one view and he could match. It's pretty difficult we helped to make that transition. If they're culturally going to make the switch than having a grip on what's working. Now we'LL help them replicate that when they make the move Teo Private cloud or Public cloud. That makes sense. >> Yeah, totally does. And they also mentioned the status quo. A lot of companies don't want to rock the boat. Yes, when they bring in new technologies. How do you see that playing out? Because one of nutanix is advantages that they get in. They change agents? Yes, and cause some benefits there for the customer, and then they grow from there. But yes, the people still gonna buy the old old stuff. >> Yeah, well, so you know what's interesting? So we have a change agent who's a friend of ours that nutanix a customer. So Wendy, fight for the CEO of NUTANIX is actually a customer of ours. They call themselves customer zero. If you've read her interviews, she they drink their own Champaign. And she recently we interviewed her and she talked about that change. And I believe it does need to come from the top town. So progressive leaders will introduce that change of the business and honestly make it comfortable for their team to take risks because it is a risk making a move any of these technologies. I think when you when we look at the I guess the simplest migration for a customer to HCR Private Cloud, it is going to be maintaining that visibility across the legacy into the new world that's going to be critical for them. That view, by the way, is one that that even the CEO wants and the CEO. >> I want to talk about the changing role of the CEO because because it is it is a very big theme and trend in this industry. And you keep talking about this idea of a progressive CEO, and this is someone who is willing to take risks. Willing Teo, tear down silos, make sure people are collaborating. Can you talk a little bit more about what you see as the people who are best at their jobs? Yes, best CEOs out there and what they're doing, what they're doing differently, >> right? Well, so I mentioned these groups meet for the first time the cops, the Dev, Ops and Sam, and probably other groups that come into those rooms as well. The profile today of a lot of the CEOs and the Final one is someone who came up through the operations organization more than likely, and they understand how that world works. They've had to. For some of them, it's been unease e transition to bring the Dev ops folks into the room. I think about this, right Cops roll is in the past. Bring me an apple. Make sure runs flawlessly on this amazing gear that I have. The Dev Ops role is I'm going to take a nap. I'm going to run it on this gear and I'm gonna optimize the app. So it's a different view to get to the same problem in the other end. And so I would tell you that it is about being progressive and that role has shifted. It's very possible the next batch of CEOs will come out of the developer organization one more quick common on that. So there's a pretty provocative Forrester wave that came out a few weeks ago that we're in who for the first time didn't look at the type of tech they actually looked at. The problem being solved and the problem, as they categorize it, is intelligent application and service monitoring. So it is about services and APS running well on DH. There are more than one technology to solve that problem. We're pleased Tio have been recognized for our thought leadership. That's >> how do you guys handle the potential blind spots in the observation space that you guys have to look under the covers and look at everything? How do you guys identify potential blind spots? What's what's you guys filtering out? Take us through an example? >> Sure, we'LL sue a couple things that'LL help you get to the blinds. So there are a lot of blind spots, especially have multiple tools. There's blind spots. The second part of that that's pretty relevant, is getting complete visibility to all the right folks in the organization. So one of the first things we do is look at that entire surface, if you will, the entire landscape lay it all out and started the top with the service and show all the dependencies of everything underneath it. We call that the model, so when the models in place, then we can show the impact of change on the model that could be a bad piece of gear. It could be a bad piece of code. It doesn't really matter to us. We're looking at it that way. That's that's probably the first step in it. The second piece that goes along with this is something we did intentionally, which is we brought a I into the mix. So we partner with Google. We actually pivoted much like Nutanix did a number of years ago last year really seen as cloud and brought in the A, A A and M L capabilities of Google, primarily because the amount of information coming out of all these complex infrastructures is more than a human could handle. So we're using that ay, ay to help look at each anomalies problem as it happens each potential blind spot and uncover that using the technology to determine. Is it a real problem for me, or is it just noise? >> It's interesting you bring up the I T Ops and Dev ops thing. You know one thing that Google proved out. I've been saying this on the Q as you know, for years and recently highlighted at the recent next conference, they nailed the whole s sorry thing it's light reliable with the engineer, and they didn't do it as a strategy to try to get market share. They didn't because they had their own problem. Yeah, that was massive scale, lot of automation, A lot of software. But they had a development environment of debs and ops. Was about one human. Too many machines? Yeah, relationship. That's essentially what you're getting at. Here it >> is. Actually, it's It's interesting. You know Mike Nickerson from Google, who published some of the interesting initial charts, kind of like a Maslow's hierarchy of Sorry, the foundational level actually is monitoring. It's sort of like a RH or water or safety on DH. Having that visibility is the first piece, The one thing all city though you touched on automation, the all that information, the world and all that, eh? Eyes kind of worthless if you can't actually automate the back end of it. So we spent a lot of time working with either cloud optimization, you know, a DBS Lambda or Google of Claude Function. Or we're looking at things like pup in Chef just to automate all of that other end of it. We have a term we use. We called software defined. It stops when you get to the point where the inputs more than a human can handle. They won't deal to react fast enough. A lot of our tools, the human's air used This sounds like I'm talking about the sky net, but a lot of the tools the humans use our eyes. Actually, in forensic analysis, when a problem happens, the remediation and the and the pro activities happening through the machine, you >> know where it's kinda went. Dog starts sniffing out Bala where I want to get the machines, actually, on the stack related question. You know, one of the things we heard from so Neil, the chief product officer, was the multi cloud battles will be fought on the top of the stack or up to stack. So the question is, what line or what? What? What's the line for under the hood now? So as you look at micro services and Deb, ops continues to go with Cooper Netease and service meshes. Yeah, you're gonna have a serious of service is being turned on terror. Tauron down all the times, right? So that challenges on the B on the monitor monitoring and observation. So where do you guys go? How high up do you go? Is there a line where the hood is? What's under the hood? What's about you? Do you think that's >> a fantastic question? I couldn't have asked for a better one. So the one side of it is house. Yeah, performing that sort of above the hood if you will write. And we are looking at that and we're looking at all the way to the level of down to the experience of that application and how it runs on the infrastructure. But we go all way down to the bare metal is well, because we think there's a value in doing it. There's a couple of concepts out there around server. Listen, by the way, Xena's cloud is a survivalist deployment. So, actually, you know, eat her own dog for you. Drink our own Champaign when it comes to this tack. But that notion of below the hood for us is all the way down to the bare metal, and that visibility, if you want to look at it in another way, is actually the great high quality data and raw material to drive the II and the output. It if you have to make sense of the other end of it. Yup. >> I want to ask you about the show. So at how many? How many of these have you been to? And what What's your experience? What are you? What do you What do you hoping to bring back with you to Austin today myself. >> But for Nutanix, we've been We've been a partner with Satanic since since we started working there as a customer, which would have been probably late. Twenty sixteen, twenty, sixteen. We started doing the shows last year. We did we actually attend as a partner. We attend some of their meetings and the partner part's important to come back to in a second, but a zeo as a technology partner initially. Now we're moving into a point we were trying to sell with the team and help them bring our visibility to their customers. The last thing we did was was next Europe, which is a fantastic show in London last fall. And we've also done a lot of the road shows in the cities. The thing we love about it is we both talked to the same customer. Both have the same people were talking to the one thing we're trying to do. And I know that Nutanix is as well as we want to bring more of the developers and Dev ops crew into it. We believe they need to be a part of the discussion. So something we're trying to help facilitate. But but this show has been fantastic for us. Yeah, >> and to your point about the developers, we're seeing that in the infrastructure worlds, not just operation work. There's Debs in there now. Yes. Automating away these mundane, repetitive tasks. Yeah, I think I think it's >> more friendly than it was for sure. >> All right, >> we'LL take your word for it. Thank you so much, George. For coming on. The Cuba was a pleasure having you on. >> Thank you. Pleasure meeting about. Thank you so much. Take care. >> I'm Rebecca Knight for John Furrier. We will have so much more from nutanix dot Next coming up in just a little bit