>>Good afternoon everybody. I'm John Walls and welcome back to our coverage here on the cube of AWS Reinvent 22. We are bringing you another segment with the Global Startup Program, which is part of the AWS Start Showcase, and it's a pleasure to welcome two new guests here to the showcase. First, immediately to my right Han w lre. Good to see you Han. Good to see you. The leader of the Enterprise Solutions Architecture at aws. And on the far right, Rolin Lee, who is the co-founder and CEO of Heim Doll Data. Roland, good to see you. Great >>To be here. >>All right, good. Thanks for joining us. Well first off, for those at home, I may not be familiar with Heim Doll. What do you do? Why are you here? But I'll let you take it from there. >>Well, we're one of the sponsors here at AWS and great to be here. We offer a data access layer in the form of a proxy, and what it does is it provides complete visibility and the capability to enhance the interaction between the application and one's current database. And as a result, you'll, the customer will improve database scale, database security and availability. And all these features don't require any application changes. So that's sort of our marketing pitch, if you will, all these types of features to improve the experience of managing a database without any application >>Changes. And, and where's the cloud come into play then, for you then, where, where did it come into play for you? >>So we started out actually helping out customers on premise, and a lot of enterprise customers are moving over to the cloud, and it was just a natural progression to do that. And so aws, which is a key part of ours, partners with us to help solve customer problems, especially on the database side, as the application being application performance tends to have issues between the interaction between the application database and we're solving that issue. >>Right. Sohan, I mean, Roan just touched on it about OnPrem, right? There's still some kickers and screamers out there that, that don't, haven't bought in or, or they're about to, but you're about to get 'em. I, I'm sure. But talk about that, that conversion or that transition, if you would, from going OnPrem into a hybrid environment or to into the, the bigger cloud environment and and how difficult that is sometimes. Yes. Maybe to get people to, to make that kind of a leap. >>Well, I would say that a lot of customers are wanting to focus more on product innovation experimentation, and also in terms of having to manage servers and patching, you know, it's to take away from that initiative that they're trying to do. So with aws, we provide undifferentiated heavy lifting so that they can focus on product innovation. And one of the areas talking about Heim is that from the database side, we do provide Amazon rds, which is database and also Aurora, to give them that lift so they don't have to worry about patching servers and setting up provisioning servers as well. >>Right. So Roland, can you get the idea across to people very simply, let us take care of the, the hard stuff and, and that will free you up to do your product innovations, to do your experimentations to, to really free up your team, basically to do the fun stuff and, and let us sweat over the, the, the details basically. Right? >>Exactly. Our, our motto is not only why build when, when you can buy. So a lot of it has to do with offering the, the value in terms of price and the features such as it's gonna benefit a team. Large companies like amazon.com, Google, they have huge teams that can build data access layers and proxies. And what we're trying to do here is commercialize those cuz those are built in house and it's not readily available for customers to use. And you'd need some type of interface between the application and the database. And we provide that sort of why build when you can buy. >>Well, I was gonna say why h right? I mean what's your special sauce? Because everybody's got something, obviously a market differentiator that you're bringing into place here. So you started to touch on a little bit there for me, but, but dive a little deeper there. I mean, what, what is it that, that you're bringing to the table with AWS that you think puts you above the crowd? >>Well, lemme give you a use case here. In typical events like let's say Black Friday where there's a surge traffic that can overwhelm the database, the Heim doll data access layer database proxy provides an auto scaling distributed architecture such that it can absorb those surges and traffic and help scale the database while keeping the data fresh and up to date. And so basically traffic based on season time of day, we can, we can adjust automatically and all these types of features that we offer, most notably automated query caching, ReadWrite split for asset compliance don't require any code changes, which typically requires the application developer to make those changes. So we're saving months, maybe years of development and maintenance. >>Yeah, a lot of gray hairs too, right? Yeah, you're, you're solving a lot of problems there. What about database trends in just in general Hunt, if you will. I mean, this is your space, right? I mean, what we're hearing about from Heindel, you know, in terms of solutions they're providing, but what are you seeing just from the macro level in terms of what people are doing and thinking about the database and how it relates to the cloud? Right. >>And some of the things that we're seeing is that we're seeing an explosion of data, relevant data that customers need to be able to consume and also process as well. So with the explosion of data, there's also, we see customers trying to modernize their application as well through microservices, which does change the design patterns of like the applications we call the access data patterns as well. So again, going back to that, a differentiated heavy lifting, we do have something called purpose built databases, right? It's the right tool for the right purpose. And so it depends on what their like rpo, rto their access to data pattern. Is it a base, is it an acid? So we want to be able to provide them the options to build and also innovate. So with that, that's why we have the Amazon rds, the also the, we also have Redshift, we also have Aurora and et cetera. The Rediff is more of the BI side, but usually when you ingest the data, you have some level of processing to get more insight. So with that, that's why customers are moving more of towards the managed service so that they can give that lift and then focusing on that product and innovation. Yeah. >>Have we kind of caught up or are we catching up to this just the tsunami of data to begin with, right? Because I mean, that was it, you know, what, seven, eight years ago when, when that data became kind of, or becoming king and, and reams and reams and reams and all, you know, can't handle it, right? And, and are we now able to manage that process and manage that flow and get the right data into the right hands at the right time? We're doing better with that. >>I would say that it, it definitely has grown in size of the amount of data that we're ingesting. And so with the scalability and agility of the cloud, we're able to, I would say, adapt to the rapid changes and ingestions of the data. So, so that's why we have things like Aurora servers to have that or auto scale so they can do like MySQL or Postgres and then they can still, like what you know, I'm trying to do is basically don't have to co do like any code changes. It would be a data migration. They still use the same underlying database on also mechanisms, but here we're providing them at scale on the cloud. >>Yeah. Our proxies, they must have for all databases. I mean, is that, is that essential these days? >>Well, good question John. I would say yes. And this is often built in house, as I mentioned, for large companies, they do build some type of data access layer or proxy and, or some utilize some orm, some object relational map to do it. And what again, what we're trying to do is offer this, put this out into the market commercially speaking, such that it can be readily used for, for all the customers to use rather than building it from scratch all the time. >>You know what I didn't ask you was Roy, how does AWS come into play for you then? And, and as in the startup mode, the focus that they've had in startups in general, but in you in particular, I mean, talk about that partnership or that relationship and the value that you're extracting from that. >>The ad AWS partnership has been absolutely wonderful. The collaboration, they have one of the best managed service databases. The value that it that adds in terms of the durability, the manageability, what the Heim doll data does is it compliments Amazon rds, Amazon Redshift very well in the sense that we're not replacing the database. What we're doing is we are allowing the customer to get the most out of the managed service database, whether it be Redshift or Aurora Serverless, rds, all without code changes. And or the analogy that I would give John is a car, a race car may be very fast, but it takes a driver to get to those fast speeds. We're the driver, the Hyundai proxy provides that intelligence so that you can get the most out of that database engine. >>And, and Hfi would then touch on, first off AWS and the emphasis that you have put on startups and are obviously, you know, kind of putting your money where your mouth is, right? With, with the way you've encouraged and nurtured that environment. And they would be about Heim doll in general about where you see this going or what you would like to have, where you want to take this in the next say 12 months, 18 months. >>I think it's more of a better together story of how we can basically coil with our partners, right? And, and basically focusing on helping our customers drive that innovation and be collaboration. So as Heim, as a independent service vendor isv, most customers can leverage that through a marketplace where basically it integrates very nicely with aws. So that gives 'em that lift and it goes back to the undifferentiated heavy lifting on the Hein proxy side, if you will, because then you have this proxy in the middle where then it helps them with their SQL performance. And I've seen use cases where customers were, have some legacy system that they may not have time to modernize the application. So they use this as a lift to keep, keep going as they try to modernize. But also I've seen customers who use are trying to use it as a, a way to give that performance lift because they may have a third party software that they cannot change the code by putting this in there that helps optimize their lines of business or whatever that is, and maybe can be online store or whatever. So I would say it was a better together type of story. >>Yeah. Which is, there's gotta be a song in there somewhere. So peek around the corner and if you wanna be headlights here right now in terms of 12, 18 months, I mean, what, you know, what what next to solve, right? You've already taken, you've slayed a few dragons along the way, but there are others I'm sure is it always happens in innovation in this space. Just when you solve a problem you've just dealt or you have to deal with others that pop up as maybe unintended consequences or at least a new challenge. So what would that be in your world right now? What, what do you see, you know, occupying your sleepless nights here for the next year or so? >>Well, for, for HOMEDALE data, it's all about improving database performance and scale. And those workloads change. We have O ltp, we have OLA with artificial intelligence ml. There's different type of traffic profiles and we're focused on improving those data profiles. It could be unstructured structured. Right now we're focused on structured data, which is relational databases, but there's a lot of opportunity to improve the performance of data. >>Well, you're driving the car, you got a good navigator. I think the GPS is working. So keep up the good work and thank you for sharing the time today. Thank you. Thank you, joy. Do appreciate it. All right, you are watching the cube. We continue our coverage here from AWS Reinvent 22, the Cube, of course, the leader in high tech coverage.

>> Announcer: "theCUBE" presents KubeCon and CloudNativeCon Europe 2022 brought to you by Red Hat, the Cloud Native Computing Foundation and its ecosystem partners. >> Welcome to Valencia, Spain and KubeCon and CloudNativeCon Europe 2022. I'm Keith Townsend, my co-host, Paul Gillin, Senior Editor Enterprise Architecture for SiliconANGLE. We're going to talk, or continue to talk to amazing people. The coverage has been amazing, but also the city of Valencia is beautiful. I have to eat a little crow, I landed and I saw the convention center, Paul, have you got out and explored the city at all? >> Absolutely, my first reaction to Valencia when we were out in this industrial section was, "This looks like Cincinnati." >> Yes. >> But then I got on the bus second day here, 10 minutes to downtown, another world, it's almost a middle ages flavor down there with these little winding streets and just absolutely gorgeous city. >> Beautiful city. I compared it to Charlotte, no disrespect to Charlotte, but this is an amazing city. Naina Singh, Principal Product Manager at Red Hat, and Roland Huss, also Principal Product Manager at Red Hat. We're going to talk a little serverless. I'm going to get this right off the bat. People get kind of feisty when we call things like Knative serverless. What's the difference between something like a Lambda and Knative? >> Okay, so I'll start. Lambda is, like a function as a server, right? Which is one of the definitions of serverless. Serverless is a deployment platform now. When we introduced serverless to containers through Knative, that's when the serverless got revolutionized, it democratized serverless. Lambda was proprietary-based, you write small snippets of code, run for a short duration of time on demand, and done. And then Knative which brought serverless to containers, where all those benefits of easy, practical, event-driven, running on demand, going up and down, all those came to containers. So that's where Knative comes into picture. >> Yeah, I would also say that Knative is based on containers from the very beginning, and so, it really allows you to run arbitrary workloads in your container, whereas with Lambda you have only a limited set of language that you can use and you have a runtime contract there which is much easier with Knative to run your applications, for example, if it's coming in a language that is not supported by Lambda. And of course the most important benefit of Knative is it's run on top of Kubernetes, which allows you- >> Yes. >> To run your serverless platform on any other Kubernetes installation, so I think this is one of the biggest thing. >> I think we saw about three years ago there was a burst of interest around serverless computing and really some very compelling cost arguments for using it, and then it seemed to die down, we haven't heard a lot about serverless, and maybe I'm just not listening to the right people, but what is it going to take for serverless to kind of break out and achieve its potential? >> Yeah, I would say that really the big advantage of course of Knative in that case is that you can scale down to zero. I think this is one of the big things that will really bring more people onto board because you really save a lot of money with that if your applications are not running when they're not used. Yeah, I think also that, because you don't have this vendor log in part thing, when people realize that you can run really on every Kubernete platform, then I think that the journey of serverless will continue. >> And I will add that the event-driven applications, there hasn't been enough buzz around them yet. There is, but serverless is going to bring a new lease on life on them, right? The other thing is the ease of use for developers. With Knative, we are introducing a new programming model, the functions, where you don't even have to create containers, it would do create containers for you. >> So you create the servers, but not the containers? >> Right now, you create the containers and then you deploy them in a serverless fashion using Knative. But the container creation was on the developers, and functions is going to be the third component of Knative that we are developing upstream, and Red Hat donated that project, is going to be where code to cloud capability. So you bring your code and everything else will be taken care of, so. >> So, I'd call a function or, it's funny, we're kind of circular with this. What used to be, I'd write a function and put it into a container, this server will provide that function not just call that function as if I'm developing kind of a low code no code, not no code, but a low code effort. So if there's a repetitive thing that the community wants to do, you'll provide that as a predefined function or as a server. >> Yeah, exactly. So functions really helps the developer to bring their code into the container, so it's really kind of a new (indistinct) on top of Knative- >> on top op. >> And of course, it's also a more opinionated approach. It's really more closer coming to Lambda now because it also comes with a programming model, which means that you have certain signature that you have to implement and other stuff. But you can also create your own templates, because at the end what matters is that you have a container at the end that you can run on Knative. >> What kind of applications is serverless really the ideal platform? >> Yeah, of course the ideal application is a HTTP-based web application that has no state and that has a very non-uniform traffic shape, which means that, for example, if you have a business where you only have spikes at certain times, like maybe for Super Bowl or Christmas, when selling some merchandise like that, then you can scale up from zero very quickly at a arbitrary high depending on the load. And this is, I think, the big benefit over, for example, Kubernetes Horizontal Pod Autoscaling where it's more like indirect measures of value scaling based on CPR memory, but here, it directly relates one to one to the traffic that is coming in to concurrent request. Yeah, so this helps a lot for non-uniform traffic shapes that I think this has become one of the ideal use case. >> Yeah. But I think that is one of the most used or defined one, but I do believe that you can write almost all applications. There are some, of course, that would not be the right load, but as long as you are handling state through external mechanism. Let's say, for example you're using database to save the state, or you're using physical volume amount to save the state, it increases the density of your cluster because when they're running, the containers would pop up, when your application is not running, the container would go down, and the resources can be used to run any other application that you want to us, right? >> So, when I'm thinking about Lambda, I kind of get the event-driven nature of Lambda. I have a S3 bucket, and if a S3 event is driven, then my functions as the server will start, and that's kind of the listening servers. How does that work with Knative or a Kubernetes-based thing? 'Cause I don't have an event-driven thing that I can think of that kicks off, like, how can I do that in Kubernetes? >> So I'll start. So it is exactly the same thing. In Knative world, it's the container that's going to come up and your servers in the container, that will do the processing of that same event that you are talking. So let's say the notification came from S3 server when the object got dropped, that would trigger an application. And in world of Kubernetes, Knative, it's the container that's going to come up with the servers in it, do the processing, either find another servers or whatever it needs to do. >> So Knative is listening for the event, and when the event happens, then Knative executes the container. >> Exactly. >> Basically. >> So the concept of Knative source which is kind of adapted to the external world, for example, for the S3 bucket. And as soon as there is an event coming in, Knative will wake up that server, will transmit this event as a cloud event, which is another standard from the CNCF, and then when the server is done, then the server spins down again to zero so that the server is only running when there are events, which is very cost effective and which people really actually like to have this kind of way of dynamic scaling up from zero to one and even higher like that. >> Lambda has been sort of synonymous with serverless in the early going here, is Knative a competitor to Lambda, is it complimentary? Would you use the two together? >> Yeah, I would say that Lambda is a offering from AWS, so it's a cloud server there. Knative itself is a platform, so you can run it in the cloud, and there are other cloud offerings like from IBM, but you can also run it on-premise for example, that's the alternative. So you can also have hybrid set scenarios where you really can put one part into the cloud, the other part on-prem, and I think there's a big difference in that you have a much more flexibility and you can avoid this kind of Windows login compared to AWS Lambda. >> Because Knative provides specifications and performance tests, so you can move from one server to another. If you are on IBM offering that's using Knative, and if you go to a Google offering- >> A google offering. >> That's on Knative, or a Red Hat offering on Knative, it should be seamless because they're both conforming to the same specifications of Knative. Whereas if you are in Lambda, there are custom deployments, so you are only going to be able to run those workloads only on AWS. >> So KnativeCon, co-located event as part of KubeCon, I'm curious as to the level of effort in the user interaction for deploying Knative. 'Cause when I think about Lambda or cloud-run or one of the other functions as a servers, there is no backend that I have to worry about. And I think this is where some of the debate becomes over serverless versus some other definition. What's the level of lifting that needs to be done to deploy Knative in my Kubernetes environment? >> So if you like... >> Is this something that comes as based part of the OpenShift install or do I have to like, you know, I have to... >> Go ahead, you answer first. >> Okay, so actually for OpenShift, it's a code layer product. So you have this catalog of operator that you can choose from, and OpenShift Serverless is one part of that. So it's really kind of a one click install where you have also get a default configuration, you can flexibly configure it as you like. Yeah, we think that's a good user experience and of course you can go to these cloud offerings like Google Cloud one or IBM Code Engine, they just have everything set up for you. And the idea of other different alternatives, you have (indistinct) charts, you can install Knative in different ways, you also have options for the backend systems. For example, we mentioned that when an event comes in, then there's a broker in the middle of something which dispatches all the events to the servers, and there you can have a different backend system like Kafka or AMQ. So you can have very production grade messaging system which really is responsible for delivering your events to your servers. >> Now, Knative has recently, I'm sorry, did I interrupt you? >> No, I was just going to say that Knative, when we talk about, we generally just talk about the serverless deployment model, right? And the Eventing gets eclipsed in. That Eventing which provides this infrastructure for producing and consuming event is inherent part of Knative, right? So you install Knative, you install Eventing, and then you are ready to connect all your disparate systems through Events. With CloudEvents, that's the specification we use for consistent and portable events. >> So Knative recently admitted to the, or accepted by the Cloud Native Computing Foundation, incubating there. Congratulations, it's a big step. >> Thank you. >> Thanks. >> How does that change the outlook for Knative adoption? >> So we get a lot of support now from the CNCF which is really great, so we could be part of this conference, for example which was not so easy before that. And we see really a lot of interest and we also heard before the move that many contributors were not, started into looking into Knative because of this kind of non being part of a mutual foundation, so they were kind of afraid that the project would go away anytime like that. And we see the adoption really increases, but slowly at the moment. So we are still ramping up there and we really hope for more contributors. Yeah, that's where we are. >> CNCF is almost synonymous with open source and trust. So, being in CNCF and then having this first KnativeCon event as part of KubeCon, we are hoping, and it's a recent addition to CNCF as well, right? So we are hoping that this events and these interviews, this will catapult more interest into serverless. So I'm really, really hopeful and I only see positive from here on out for Knative. >> Well, I can sense the excitement. KnativeCon sold out, congratulations on that. >> Thank you. >> I can talk about serverless all day, it's a topic that I really love, it's a fascinating way to build applications and manage applications, but we have a lot more coverage to do today on "theCUBE" from Spain. From Valencia, Spain, I'm Keith Townsend along with Paul Gillin, and you're watching "theCUBE," the leader in high-tech coverage. (gentle upbeat music)

(upbeat music) (air whooshing) >> Hi everybody. John Walls here continuing our Cube Conversations here focusing on NETSCOUT today and the drawing problem of ransomware. Obviously very much in the news these days for the couple of high profile cases. It is certainly an increasing challenge, but by no means a new phenomenon at all. With us to talk about this is Roland Dobbins who is the principal engineer of NETSCOUT's A-CERT team. And Ronald and good to see you today, sir. Thanks for joining us. >> Good to see you as well. And Richard Hummel who's Threat Intelligence research lead for the A-CERT Team. And Richard, thank you for being with us as well here on the Cube. >> Absolutely John, thanks for having us. >> Yeah, let's just jump right in here. Ransomware, obviously we're all well aware of a couple of high profile cases, as I alluded to. Let's talk about first, the magnitude and scale of the problem, as it currently exists. And Roland, I'm going to let you just set the table for us here. Let's talk about ransomware, where it was maybe four or five years ago, and then the challenge has become today? >> Actually, John, if you don't mind I'd really like to hand that one to my colleague, Richard because >> By all means, so Richard- he's really has an in-depth background there if that's okay. >> Richard, jump in on that. >> Absolutely. Yeah. And so (clears throat) I'll handle all the ransomware stuff, namely because I've been doing this for going on seven years now of looking specifically at ransomware. I started this right around the time I joined Eyesight Partners, you know leading premier provider of threat intelligence who was acquired by FireEye and now Mandiat, and now even a conglomerate that just acquired Mandia. So there's been a series of acquisitions here but the reality is this threat intelligence has been pervasive across all of these. And you can see that over time that value hasn't diminished. And you can see that by all of these acquisitions. that are like that's a really good example to show how valuable this is because everybody wants it. And the reality is back then I started tracking ransomware specifically looking at a lot of the CryptoLocker variance, things like CryptoWall, and TorrentLocker, and TeslaCrypt. And there's any number I could go on and on and on about all these different variations, and how ransomware came to be, and what you know, adversaries were using it for. But the reality is ransomware has been around for a long, long time and probably three or four years ago. There was this lull in time where people are like, hey we've got these initiatives like no ransomware.org. We've got the, you know, local law enforcement backing in a bunch of different countries. There's this big huge international effort to basically get rid of ransomware. And it's going to% be a thing of the past. And we very clearly see that is not the case. And now with ransomware, you have an evolution over time. It used to be you would have different flavors of ransomware where sometimes it would encrypt your files first and then it would reach back to the command control. Sometimes it would reach back first to get keys and then it would encrypt. Sometimes the encryptions were breakable, sometimes the keys were stored locally, but a lot of them more recent variants of ransomware are very well done. They're very sophisticated. They will encrypt your files and the keys themselves are held by the adversary. And so there's no way to just decrypt it. You can't create a decryptor like a lot of these security companies do you would actually have to get that key from the adversary or you would have to restore your systems from a backup. And so the history of ransomware is very long and varied. And you know one of the core topics we want to discuss today is ransomware isn't by itself anymore. It used to be like ransomware was the name that incited fear but these guys have evolved over time. And now ransomware operators are doing kind of this triple extortion. Where they will encrypt your files, they've already gained access to that system. So then they will exfiltrate sensitive data and they will have that as kind of a hostage and say, look you're going to pay us for this ransomware to decrypt your files, to get those back. But I'll guess what? We also have your sensitive data that we're going to post online and sell and on underground forms unless you pay us additional money. But now we even have a third stage here. And this is kind of where Roland's going to come in and talk about this is we have DDoS extortion. That is surging In fact, we did a survey of enterprise internet service providers. And when we asked them what was their biggest concerns in 2020 and going into 2021 about threats, and obviously ransomware was number one but DDoS extortion was number two. And so you have this one, two bang the adversaries are using to be able to extort payment from victims. And this has been going on for a number of years with this kind of double extortion. And now this triple extortion, in fact going all the way back to the CryptoLocker days you would have banking malware, like Gameover Zeus where they would get on your system, they would do wire transfers from your bank accounts. There was steal files. And then as a last hurrah they would deploy ransomware and encrypt all your files. And so not only did they steal all your money from the bank. Now, they're going to say, you got to pay us to actually do decrypt your files. So this idea of kind of a double tap has been going on for a long time. And more recently around September of last year we started to see this DDoS aspect part of these operations. And so, yeah, that's kind of the history of what we're dealing with here. >> And so, and DDoS distributed denial service, Ronald let you pick up the ball at this point then. Now this evolution you will the triple threat, you know first you were talking about in encryption, in public exposure. And now this DDoS stage, this pillar of the malfeasance, if you will what kind of headaches is this causing in terms of from an engineering perspective from your side of the fence when you're looking at what your clients are dealing with when all of a sudden they have this entirely new plethora of challenges that are confronting them. >> Sure. So DDoS goes back a long ways. So it actually goes back to the late 80s and the early ARPANET. And then we started to see non-monetary DDoS extortion in the early 1990s. And we started to see monetary DDoS extortion that kicked off around 1997. So with any, criminals are very, very adaptive. And so when new technologies come online and new ways that they can potentially exploit it for their gain, they will do so in many cases using old modalities just simply transliterated into the new technology space. And that's what we see with (indistinct) extortion. DDOS attacks are attacks against availability. So the idea is to disrupt the access, (indistinct) access to applications, services, servers, data content, infrastructure, those different types of things. And DDoS attacks can be motivated by pretty much any motivation you can think of. But there is a hard core of DDoS extortionists that we've seen over the years. And this Richard indicated what we started to see is a convergence between these sets of criminal specialties. And so a few years ago, we actually were disassembling a piece of ransomware and it turned out that it had some very basic DDoS attack capabilities coded into it. It was obviously a prototype, it hadn't been finished, but this showed that these criminals in the ransomware space were thinking about getting into DDoS. And now they've developed this methodology where like Richard said, they, number one, they encrypt the files. Number two, they'll threaten to leak information. And then they will DDoS the public facing infrastructure of the organizations to try and put additional pressure on them to pay. And especially now during the pandemic with this wholesale shift to remote work. The attackers for the first time have the ability not only to disrupt the online operations which is bad enough, but they can actually interfere with the ordinary work day activities of the first-line workforce of organizations. And so this really makes it even more potent. And the ransomware itself is interesting as well because it uses exploits, social engineering, along with technological exploits to exploit the confidentiality and the integrity of data, and to restrict that stuff which actually turns into an attack against availability. So it's kind of really a different form of DDoS attack and coupled out with a real DDoS attack, and it can be very, very challenging. But one thing John that we've seen is that organizations if they have prepared to deal with a DDoS attack in form an architectural perspective, from an operational perspective. If they have done the things they need to do, to be able to maintain availability, even in the face of attack. There are about 80% of where they need to be to be to able to withstand a ransomware attack. Conversely, if organizations have been doing a good job and ensuring that their systems are secured and if they do get hit somehow with ransomware that they have the ability to maintain operations and communications and recover, they're about 80% of where they need to be to be able to successfully withstand DDoS attacks. And so it turns out that even though these threats are major threats and they are something that organizations need to be aware of, the good news is that a lot of the planning, and resources, and organizational changes that need to be made to face these threats are in fact very similar. >> Yeah, but (indistinct) mean the challenge is, it's hard work, right? It, there's an enormous amount of preparations got to go into this, and pre-planning, pre-thought, and that's what NETSCOUT is all about obviously is trying to get people onto that journey and getting into this examination of their services, and their networks, and... The fact that this can happen on multiple layers, right? It could be application, be protocols, transport, network, whatever, you know just multiple ways that these DDoS attacks can occur. What kind of I'd say well, challenges again does that present in the fact that it is, there are many doors, right? That these attacks can happen from or where these attacks can come from. So how do you then talk to your client base about approaching this kind of examination and these prophylactic measures that you're suggesting that have to be done in order to minimize the damage? >> It's really about business continuity. Now business continuity planning, we used to be called "disaster recovery planning", right? Is something that organizations are very familiar with. It often has executive sponsorship and a lot of planning has gone into it. The thing is DDoS attacks, which were attacks against availability are in fact a manmade disaster, right? And they interrupt the continuity of business. Same thing with the ransomware, and so from an architectural standpoint, from the standpoint of rolling out new products and services, resiliency and to attack, and the ability to maintain availability and continue with operations in the face of attack is really really key for any organization today which has any kind of significant online presence. And that's really just about all of them. And so from a planning standpoint, it's imperative from an architectural standpoint whether we're talking about things like network infrastructure, or DNS, or software applications. It's important from an operational standpoint. So one of the things that we see for example is that many organizations don't really have a good communications plan. They don't have a good internal communications plan nor do they have a good external communications plan for communicating during an event. And they don't even have really a plan for dealing with an event that is disruptive to business continuity and operations. And so that is really key. Technology is important, but the most important aspect of this is the human factor, understanding the business, understanding the types of risks to the business's ability to execute on its mission and then doing the things from a technological perspective, from an operational perspective, and from a communications perspective to maintain operations, and communications throughout an event and to be able to emerge on the other side of that agenda successfully. >> So Richard you're in threat intelligence, right? Risk assessments. And as you said, you've been around this block for quite some time now. In terms of, I guess getting people's attention that has been accomplished now with obviously some, with some of these high profile cases. But what about that kind of work that you're doing in terms of trying to communicate these very threats to your client base or to prospective clients in terms of identifying their real vulnerabilities within their networks and then having them seriously address these. I mean, what's the difference maybe in the mindset now, as opposed to where maybe that conversation was being had a few years ago? >> I think the biggest difference here is a matter of when and not if. It used to be, you could say, "Oh I'm never going to get hit by ransomware or I'm never going to get DDoS attacked." But that is no longer the case. Roland made a really good point that just about every single business in the world now relies on internet connectivity in order to operate their business. If they don't have that then they're not going to be able to connect with their consumers, their shoppers, if they're a retail, right? If you're a bank, then you have to communicate with your individuals having accounts. And I mean, I have not gone to a physical bank in probably six years. And so that just underscores how important it is to have this internet connectivity. Now, with that comes risk. Not only do you risk the DDoS attacks because you're publicly exposed in an adversary where you can actually find your internet space by doing some forensics, such as network scanning, being able to walk that back like a passive DNS but their historical records use things like showdown to figure out what kind of devices you're running. So there's any number of ways that you can do that. But at the same time you're also exposing yourself to these ransomware operators and really any kind of crime ware operator out there, because they're going to exploit you over the internet. We actually did a case study probably two years ago. Looking at brute forcing on networks and looking at exploitation attempts to figure out like what is the Delta? If you have an online internet presence are you going to get attacked? And the answer was very shocking to us. Yes, you're going to get attacked. And also it's going to be in less than five minutes, from the time a brand new IOT device goes online to the time it starts getting brute force attacked. And within 24 hours you're going to get exploitation attempts from known vulnerabilities or devices that haven't been patched and things like that. And so the reality is not if you're going to get attacked, it's when? And so understanding that is the nature of the threat landscape right now and having this kind of security awareness. Actually another good point that Roland just brought up was that human element. The human element is kind of the linchpin for any security organization. And as part of my master's I had wrote a dissertation about, and I named it as such my professor didn't really care for this, but I said, "The humans are the weakest link." Because in the security posture, that is essentially true. If you don't have the expertise on a team you're not going to be able to get things configured properly. If you don't have the expertise you're not going to be able to respond properly. If you have individuals that aren't concerned about security, now you're going to have a bunch of gaps. Not only that, social engineering is still the number one method that adversaries use to get into organizations and that manipulates the human element. And so having the security awareness in what we do here, on this cube interview, the threat reports, we publish, the blogs that we do, all the threads summaries, all of that goes hand-in-hand with educating the general public and having security awareness pushed out as much as possible to every single person we can. And that's really the key, this preparation, this awareness of what adversaries are doing in order to defend against them. >> So Roland in your mind and you've already walked us through a little bit of this about certain steps and measures. Do you think that could be taken safeguards basically, that everybody should have in the place? What is the optimal scenario from an engineering perspective in terms of trying to prevent these kinds of intrusions, these kinds of attacks in terms of what are those basic pieces, these fundamental pieces as you see it now, understanding as Richard just told us that it's matter of not if, but when? >> Right. So availability, redundancy these have to be core architectural principles whether we're talking about network infrastructure, whether we're talking about important ancillary supporting services like DNS in terms of personnel, in terms of remote access. All of these different elements and many many more have to be designed from the out. All the services in the applications whether they're used internally, whether they are part of service delivery that an organization is doing across the internet, publicly there has to be redundancy and resiliency. There has to be a defense plan in order to defend these assets in these organizations against attack. Whether it's DDoS attack or whether it's a containment plan to deal with a ransomware that potentially gets let loose inside the enterprise network, there has to be a plan to contain it, and deal with it, and restore from backup. These plans have to be continuously updated because IT is not static. There are always noose and nance and changes this organizations provision new services offer new products, move into new markets and new new sub-specializations. And so the plans have to be consistently updated and they have to be rehearsed. You can't have a plan that just exists as pixels on a phosphorous somewhere. The plan has to be executed because you're going to find that there's some scenario, some service, or application, or operational process that needs to be updated or that needs to be included in the plan. And this has to be done regularly. Another key point is that you have to have people who are very skilled and who have both depth and breadth of understanding. And either you bring those people into your organization or you reach out and get that expertise from organizations who do in fact have that kind of expertise on tap and available. >> Well, is, you both certainly exhibit the depth and the breadth to fight this issue(chuckles) I certainly appreciate the time, the insights, and the warning is quite clear. Be prepared, do the hard work upfront. It could save you a lot of headache on the backside. And it is a matter of when and not if, these days. Richard Roland, thanks for being with us here on the Cube >> Thank you so much. >> Thank you so much. It's a pleasure. >> All right, talking about the triple threat of extortion, cyber extortion these days, and DDoS, the distributed denial of service in the growing problem. It is, but there is a way that you can combat it. And you just learned about that (indistinct) NETSCOUT here on the Cube. (upbeat music)

(upbeat music) (air whooshing) >> Hi everybody. John Walls here continuing our Cube Conversations here focusing on NETSCOUT today and the drawing problem of ransomware. Obviously very much in the news these days for the couple of high profile cases. It is certainly an increasing challenge, but by no means a new phenomenon at all. With us to talk about this is Roland Dobbins who is the principal engineer of NETSCOUT's A-CERT team. And Ronald and good to see you today, sir. Thanks for joining us. >> Good to see you as well. And Richard Hummel who's Threat Intelligence research lead for the A-CERT Team. And Richard, thank you for being with us as well here on the Cube. >> Absolutely John, thanks for having us. >> Yeah, let's just jump right in here. Ransomware, obviously we're all well aware of a couple of high profile cases, as I alluded to. Let's talk about first, the magnitude and scale of the problem, as it currently exists. And Roland, I'm going to let you just set the table for us here. Let's talk about ransomware, where it was maybe four or five years ago, and then the challenge has become today? >> Actually, John, if you don't mind I'd really like to hand that one to my colleague, Richard because >> By all means, so Richard- he's really has an in-depth background there if that's okay. >> Richard, jump in on that. >> Absolutely. Yeah. And so (clears throat) I'll handle all the ransomware stuff, namely because I've been doing this for going on seven years now of looking specifically at ransomware. I started this right around the time I joined Eyesight Partners, you know leading premier provider of threat intelligence who was acquired by FireEye and now Mandiat, and now even a conglomerate that just acquired Mandia. So there's been a series of acquisitions here but the reality is this threat intelligence has been pervasive across all of these. And you can see that over time that value hasn't diminished. And you can see that by all of these acquisitions. that are like that's a really good example to show how valuable this is because everybody wants it. And the reality is back then I started tracking ransomware specifically looking at a lot of the CryptoLocker variance, things like CryptoWall, and TorrentLocker, and TeslaCrypt. And there's any number I could go on and on and on about all these different variations, and how ransomware came to be, and what you know, adversaries were using it for. But the reality is ransomware has been around for a long, long time and probably three or four years ago. There was this lull in time where people are like, hey we've got these initiatives like no ransomware.org. We've got the, you know, local law enforcement backing in a bunch of different countries. There's this big huge international effort to basically get rid of ransomware. And it's going to% be a thing of the past. And we very clearly see that is not the case. And now with ransomware, you have an evolution over time. It used to be you would have different flavors of ransomware where sometimes it would encrypt your files first and then it would reach back to the command control. Sometimes it would reach back first to get keys and then it would encrypt. Sometimes the encryptions were breakable, sometimes the keys were stored locally, but a lot of them more recent variants of ransomware are very well done. They're very sophisticated. They will encrypt your files and the keys themselves are held by the adversary. And so there's no way to just decrypt it. You can't create a decryptor like a lot of these security companies do you would actually have to get that key from the adversary or you would have to restore your systems from a backup. And so the history of ransomware is very long and varied. And you know one of the core topics we want to discuss today is ransomware isn't by itself anymore. It used to be like ransomware was the name that incited fear but these guys have evolved over time. And now ransomware operators are doing kind of this triple extortion. Where they will encrypt your files, they've already gained access to that system. So then they will exfiltrate sensitive data and they will have that as kind of a hostage and say, look you're going to pay us for this ransomware to decrypt your files, to get those back. But I'll guess what? We also have your sensitive data that we're going to post online and sell and on underground forms unless you pay us additional money. But now we even have a third stage here. And this is kind of where Roland's going to come in and talk about this is we have DDoS extortion. That is surging In fact, we did a survey of enterprise internet service providers. And when we asked them what was their biggest concerns in 2020 and going into 2021 about threats, and obviously ransomware was number one but DDoS extortion was number two. And so you have this one, two bang the adversaries are using to be able to extort payment from victims. And this has been going on for a number of years with this kind of double extortion. And now this triple extortion, in fact going all the way back to the CryptoLocker days you would have banking malware, like Gameover Zeus where they would get on your system, they would do wire transfers from your bank accounts. There was steal files. And then as a last hurrah they would deploy ransomware and encrypt all your files. And so not only did they steal all your money from the bank. Now, they're going to say, you got to pay us to actually do decrypt your files. So this idea of kind of a double tap has been going on for a long time. And more recently around September of last year we started to see this DDoS aspect part of these operations. And so, yeah, that's kind of the history of what we're dealing with here. >> And so, and DDoS distributed denial service, Ronald let you pick up the ball at this point then. Now this evolution you will the triple threat, you know first you were talking about in encryption, in public exposure. And now this DDoS stage, this pillar of the malfeasance, if you will what kind of headaches is this causing in terms of from an engineering perspective from your side of the fence when you're looking at what your clients are dealing with when all of a sudden they have this entirely new plethora of challenges that are confronting them. >> Sure. So DDoS goes back a long ways. So it actually goes back to the late 80s and the early ARPANET. And then we started to see non-monetary DDoS extortion in the early 1990s. And we started to see monetary DDoS extortion that kicked off around 1997. So with any, criminals are very, very adaptive. And so when new technologies come online and new ways that they can potentially exploit it for their gain, they will do so in many cases using old modalities just simply transliterated into the new technology space. And that's what we see with (indistinct) extortion. DDOS attacks are attacks against availability. So the idea is to disrupt the access, (indistinct) access to applications, services, servers, data content, infrastructure, those different types of things. And DDoS attacks can be motivated by pretty much any motivation you can think of. But there is a hard core of DDoS extortionists that we've seen over the years. And this Richard indicated what we started to see is a convergence between these sets of criminal specialties. And so a few years ago, we actually were disassembling a piece of ransomware and it turned out that it had some very basic DDoS attack capabilities coded into it. It was obviously a prototype, it hadn't been finished, but this showed that these criminals in the ransomware space were thinking about getting into DDoS. And now they've developed this methodology where like Richard said, they, number one, they encrypt the files. Number two, they'll threatened to leak information. And then they will DDoS the public facing infrastructure of the organizations to try and put additional pressure on them to pay. And especially now during the pandemic with this wholesale shift to remote work. The attackers for the first time have the ability not only to disrupt the online operations which is bad enough, but they can actually interfere with the ordinary work day activities of the first-line workforce of organizations. And so this really makes it even more potent. And the ransomware itself is interesting as well because it uses exploits (indistinct), social engineering, along with technological exploits to exploit the confidentiality and the integrity of data, and to restrict that stuff which actually turns into an attack against availability. So it's kind of really a different form of DDoS attack and coupled out with a real DDoS attack, and it can be very, very challenging. But one thing John that we've seen is that organizations if they have prepared to deal with a DDoS attack in form an architectural perspective, from an operational perspective. If they have done the things they need to do, to be able to maintain availability, even in the face of attack. There are about 80% of where they need to be to be to able to withstand a ransomware attack. Conversely, if organizations have been doing a good job and ensuring that their systems are secured and if they do get hit somehow with ransomware that they have the ability to maintain operations and communications and recover, they're about 80% of where they need to be to be able to successfully withstand DDoS attacks. And so it turns out that even though these threats are major threats and they are something that organizations need to be aware of, the good news is that a lot of the planning, and resources, and organizational changes that need to be made to face these threats are in fact very similar. >> Yeah, but (indistinct) mean the challenge is, it's hard work, right? It, there's an enormous amount of preparations got to go into this, and pre-planning, pre-thought, and that's what NETSCOUT is all about obviously is trying to get people onto that journey and getting into this examination of their services, and their networks, and... The fact that this can happen on multiple layers, right? It could be application, be protocols, transport, network, whatever, you know just multiple ways that these DDoS attacks can occur. What kind of I'd say well, challenges again does that present in the fact that it is, there are many doors, right? That these attacks can happen from or where these attacks can come from. So how do you then talk to your client base about approaching this kind of examination and these prophylactic measures that you're suggesting that have to be done in order to minimize the damage? >> It's really about business continuity. Now business continuity planning, we used to be called "disaster recovery planning", right? Is something that organizations are very familiar with. It often has executive sponsorship and a lot of planning has gone into it. The thing is DDoS attacks, which were attacks against availability are in fact a manmade disaster, right? And they interrupt the continuity of business. Same thing with the ransomware, and so from an architectural standpoint, from the standpoint of rolling out new products and services, resiliency and to attack, and the ability to maintain availability and continue with operations in the face of attack is really really key for any organization today which has any kind of significant online presence. And that's really just about all of them. And so from a planning standpoint, it's imperative from an architectural standpoint whether we're talking about things like network infrastructure, or DNS, or software applications. It's important from an operational standpoint. So one of the things that we see for example is that many organizations don't really have a good communications plan. They don't have a good internal communications plan nor do they have a good external communications plan for communicating during an event. And they don't even have really a plan for dealing with an event that is disruptive to business continuity and operations. And so that is really key. Technology is important, but the most important aspect of this is the human factor, understanding the business, understanding the types of risks to the business's ability to execute on its mission and then doing the things from a technological perspective, from an operational perspective, and from a communications perspective to maintain operations, and communications throughout an event and to be able to emerge on the other side of that agenda successfully. >> So Richard you're in threat intelligence, right? Risk assessments. And as you said, you've been around this block for quite some time now. In terms of, I guess getting people's attention that has been accomplished now with obviously some, with some of these high profile cases. But what about that kind of work that you're doing in terms of trying to communicate these very threats to your client base or to prospective clients in terms of identifying their real vulnerabilities within their networks and then having them seriously address these. I mean, what's the difference maybe in the mindset now, as opposed to where maybe that conversation was being had a few years ago? >> I think the biggest difference here is a matter of when and not if. It used to be, you could say, "Oh I'm never going to get hit by ransomware or I'm never going to get DDoS attacked." But that is no longer the case. Roland made a really good point that just about every single business in the world now relies on internet connectivity in order to operate their business. If they don't have that then they're not going to be able to connect with their consumers, their shoppers, if they're a retail, right? If you're a bank, then you have to communicate with your individuals having accounts. And I mean, I have not gone to a physical bank in probably six years. And so that just underscores how important it is to have this internet connectivity. Now, with that comes risk. Not only do you risk the DDoS attacks because you're publicly exposed in an adversary where you can actually find your internet space by doing some forensics, such as network scanning, being able to walk that back like a passive DNS but their historical records use things like showdown to figure out what kind of devices you're running. So there's any number of ways that you can do that. But at the same time you're also exposing yourself to these ransomware operators and really any kind of crime ware operator out there, because they're going to exploit you over the internet. We actually did a case study probably two years ago. Looking at brute forcing on networks and looking at exploitation attempts to figure out like what is the Delta? If you have an online internet presence are you going to get attacked? And the answer was very shocking to us. Yes, you're going to get attacked. And also it's going to be in less than five minutes, from the time a brand new IOT device goes online to the time it starts getting brute force attacked. And within 24 hours you're going to get exploitation attempts from known vulnerabilities or devices that haven't been patched and things like that. And so the reality is not if you're going to get attacked, it's when? And so understanding that is the nature of the threat landscape right now and having this kind of security awareness. Actually another good point that Roland just brought up was that human element. The human element is kind of the linchpin for any security organization. And as part of my master's I had wrote a dissertation about, and I named it as such my professor didn't really care for this, but I said, "The humans are the weakest link." Because in the security posture, that is essentially true. If you don't have the expertise on a team you're not going to be able to get things configured properly. If you don't have the expertise you're not going to be able to respond properly. If you have individuals that aren't concerned about security, now you're going to have a bunch of gaps. Not only that, social engineering is still the number one method that adversaries use to get into organizations and that manipulates the human element. And so having the security awareness in what we do here, on this cube interview, the threat reports, we publish, the blogs that we do, all the threads summaries, all of that goes hand-in-hand with educating the general public and having security awareness pushed out as much as possible to every single person we can. And that's really the key, this preparation, this awareness of what adversaries are doing in order to defend against them. >> So Roland in your mind and you've already walked us through a little bit of this about certain steps and measures. Do you think that could be taken safeguards basically, that everybody should have in the place? What is the optimal scenario from an engineering perspective in terms of trying to prevent these kinds of intrusions, these kinds of attacks in terms of what are those basic pieces, these fundamental pieces as you see it now, understanding as Richard just told us that it's matter of not if, but when? >> Right. So availability, redundancy these have to be core architectural principles whether we're talking about network infrastructure, whether we're talking about important ancillary supporting services like DNS in terms of personnel, in terms of remote access. All of these different elements and many many more have to be designed from the out. All the services in the applications whether they're used internally, whether they are part of service delivery that an organization is doing across the internet, publicly there has to be redundancy and resiliency. There has to be a defense plan in order to defend these assets in these organizations against attack. Whether it's DDoS attack or whether it's a containment plan to deal with a ransomware that potentially gets let loose inside the enterprise network, there has to be a plan to contain it, and deal with it, and restore from backup. These plans have to be continuously updated because IT is not static. There are always noose and nance and changes this organizations provision new services offer new products, move into new markets and new new sub-specializations. And so the plans have to be consistently updated and they have to be rehearsed. You can't have a plan that just exists as pixels on a phosphorous somewhere. The plan has to be executed because you're going to find that there's some scenario, some service, or application, or operational process that needs to be updated or that needs to be included in the plan. And this has to be done regularly. Another key point is that you have to have people who are very skilled and who have both depth and breadth of understanding. And either you bring those people into your organization or you reach out and get that expertise from organizations who do in fact have that kind of expertise on tap and available. >> Well, is, you both certainly exhibit the depth and the breadth to fight this issue(chuckles) I certainly appreciate the time, the insights, and the warning is quite clear. Be prepared, do the hard work upfront. It could save you a lot of headache on the backside. And it is a matter of when and not if, these days. Richard Roland, thanks for being with us here on the Cube >> Thank you so much. >> Thank you so much. It's a pleasure. >> All right, talking about the triple threat of extortion, cyber extortion these days, and DDoS, the distributed denial of service in the growing problem. It is, but there is a way that you can combat it. And you just learned about that (indistinct) NETSCOUT here on the Cube. (upbeat music)

from around the globe it's thecube covering space and cyber security symposium 2020 hosted by cal poly hello and welcome to thecube's coverage we're here hosting with cal poly an amazing event space in the intersection of cyber security this session is defending satellite and space infrastructure from cyber threats got two great guests we've got major general john shaw combined four space component commander u.s space command and vandenberg air force base in california and roland cuello who's the ceo of maverick space systems gentlemen thank you for spending the time to come on to this session for the cal poly space and cyber security symposium appreciate it absolutely um guys defending satellites and space infrastructure is the new domain obviously it's a war warfighting domain it's also the future of the world and this is an important topic because we rely on space now for our everyday life and it's becoming more and more critical everyone knows how their phones work and gps just small examples of all the impacts i'd like to discuss with this hour this topic with you guys so if we can have you guys do an opening statement general if you can start with your opening statement we'll take it from there thanks john and greetings from vandenberg air force base we are just down the road from cal poly here on the central coast of california and uh very proud to be part of this uh effort and part of the partnership that we have with with cal poly on a number of fronts um i should uh so in in my job here i actually uh have two hats that i wear and it's i think worth talking briefly about those to set the context for our discussion you know we had two major organizational events within our department of defense with regard to space last year in 2019 and probably the one that made the most headlines was the stand-up of the united states space force that happened uh december 20th last year and again momentous the first new branch in our military since 1947 uh and uh it is a it's just over nine months old now as we're making this recording uh and already we're seeing a lot of change uh with regard to how we're approaching uh organizing training and equipping on a service side or space capabilities and so i uh in that with regard to the space force the hat i wear there is commander of space operations command that was what was once 14th air force when we were still part of the air force here at vandenberg and in that role i'm responsible for the operational capabilities that we bring to the joint warfighter and to the world from a space perspective didn't make quite as many headlines but another major change that happened last year was the uh the reincarnation i guess i would say of united states space command and that is a combatant command it's how our department of defense organizes to actually conduct warfighting operations um most people are more familiar perhaps with uh central command centcom or northern command northcom or even strategic command stratcom well now we have a space com we actually had one from 1985 until 2002 and then stood it down in the wake of the 9 11 attacks and a reorganization of homeland security but we've now stood up a separate command again operationally to conduct joint space operations and in that organization i wear a hat as a component commander and that's the combined force-based component command uh working with other all the additional capabilities that other services bring as well as our allies that combined in that title means that uh i under certain circumstances i would lead an allied effort uh in space operations and so it's actually a terrific job to have here on the central coast of california uh both working the uh how we bring space capabilities to the fight on the space force side and then how we actually operate those capabilities it's a point of joint in support of joint warfighters around the world um and and national security interests so that's the context now what el i i also should mention you kind of alluded to john you're beginning that we're kind of in a change situation than we were a number of years ago and that space we now see space as a warfighting domain for most of my career going back a little ways most of my my focus in my jobs was making sure i could bring space capabilities to those that needed them bringing gps to that special operations uh soldier on the ground somewhere in the world bringing satellite communications for our nuclear command and control bringing those capabilities for other uses but i didn't have to worry in most of my career about actually defending those space capabilities themselves well now we do we've actually gone to a point where we're are being threatened in space we now are treating it more like any other domain normalizing in that regard as a warfighting domain and so we're going through some relatively emergent efforts to protect and defend our capabilities in space to to design our capabilities to be defended and perhaps most of all to train our people for this new mission set so it's a very exciting time and i know we'll get into it but you can't get very far into talking about all these space capabilities and how we want to protect and defend them and how we're going to continue their ability to deliver to warfighters around the globe without talking about cyber because they fit together very closely so anyway thanks for the chance to be here today and i look forward to the discussion general thank you so much for that opening statement and i would just say that not only is it historic with the space force it's super exciting because it opens up so much more challenges and opportunities for to do more and to do things differently so i appreciate that statement roland your opening statement your your job is to put stuff in space faster cheaper smaller better your opening statement please um yes um thank you john um and yes you know to um general shaw's point you know with with the space domain and the need to protect it now um is incredibly important and i hope that we are more of a help um than a thorn in your side um in terms of you know building satellites smaller faster cheaper um you know and um definitely looking forward to this discussion and you know figuring out ways where um the entire space domain can work together you know from industry to to us government even to the academic environment as well so first would like to say and preface this by saying i am not a cyber security expert um we you know we build satellites um and uh we launch them into orbit um but we are by no means you know cyber security experts and that's why um you know we like to partner with organizations like the california cyber security institute because they help us you know navigate these requirements um so um so i'm the ceo of um of maverick space systems we are a small aerospace business in san luis obispo california and we provide small satellite hardware and service solutions to a wide range of customers all the way from the academic environment to the us government and everything in between we support customers through an entire you know program life cycle from mission architecture and formulation all the way to getting these customer satellites in orbit and so what we try to do is um provide hardware and services that basically make it easier for customers to get their satellites into orbit and to operate so whether it be reducing mass or volume um creating greater launch opportunities or providing um the infrastructure and the technology um to help those innovations you know mature in orbit you know that's you know that's what we do our team has experienced over the last 20 years working with small satellites and definitely fortunate to be part of the team that invented the cubesat standard by cal poly and stanford uh back in 2000 and so you know we are in you know vandenberg's backyard um we came from cal poly san luis obispo um and you know our um our hearts are fond you know of this area and working with the local community um a lot of that success um that we have had is directly attributable um to the experiences that we learned as students um working on satellite programs from our professors and mentors um you know that's you know all you know thanks to cal poly so just wanted to tell a quick story so you know back in 2000 just imagine a small group of undergraduate students you know myself included with the daunting task of launching multiple satellites from five different countries on a russian launch vehicle um you know many of us were only 18 or 19 not even at the legal age to drink yet um but as you know essentially teenagers we're managing million dollar budgets um and we're coordinating groups um from around the world um and we knew that we knew what we needed to accomplish um yet we didn't really know um what we were doing when we first started um the university was extremely supportive um and you know that's the cal poly learn by doing philosophy um i remember you know the first time we had a meeting with our university chief legal counsel and we were discussing the need to to register with the state department for itar nobody really knew what itar was back then um and you know discussing this with the chief legal counsel um you know she was asking what is itar um and we essentially had to explain you know this is um launching satellites as part of the um the u.s munitions list and essentially we have a similar situation you know exporting munitions um you know we are in similar categories um you know as you know as weapons um and so you know after that initial shock um everybody jumped in you know both feet forward um the university um you know our head legal counsel professors mentors and the students um you know knew we needed to tackle this problem um because you know the the need was there um to launch these small satellites and um you know the the reason you know this is important to capture the entire spectrum of users of the community um is that the technology and the you know innovation of the small satellite industry occurs at all levels you know so we have academia commercial national governments we even have high schools and middle schools getting involved and you know building satellite hardware um and the thing is you know the the importance of cyber security is incredibly important because it touches all of these programs and it touches you know people um at a very young age um and so you know we hope to have a conversation today um to figure out you know how do we um create an environment where we allow these programs to thrive but we also you know protect and you know keep their data safe as well thank you very much roland appreciate that uh story too as well thanks for your opening statement gentlemen i mean i love this topic because defending the assets in space is is as obvious um you look at it but there's a bigger picture going on in our world right now and generally you kind of pointed out the historic nature of space force and how it's changing already operationally training skills tools all that stuff is revolving you know in the tech world that i live in you know change the world is a topic they use that's thrown around a lot you can change the world a lot of young people we have just other panels on this where we're talking about how to motivate young people changing the world is what it's all about with technology for the better evolution is just an extension of another domain in this case space is just an extension of other domains similar things are happening but it's different there's a huge opportunity to change the world so it's faster there's an expanded commercial landscape out there certainly government space systems are moving and changing how do we address the importance of cyber security in space general we'll start with you because this is real it's exciting if you're a young person there's touch points of things to jump into tech building hardware to changing laws and and everything in between is an opportunity and it's exciting and it's truly a chance to change the world how does the commercial government space systems teams address the importance of cyber security so john i think it starts with with the realization that as i like to say that cyber and space are bffs uh there's nothing that we do on the cutting edge of space that isn't heavy reliant heavily reliant on the cutting edge of cyber and frankly there's probably nothing on the cutting edge of cyber that doesn't have a space application and when you realize that you see how how closely those are intertwined as we need to move forward at at speed it becomes fundamental to to the to answering your question let me give a couple examples we one of the biggest challenges i have on a daily basis is understanding what's going on in the space domain those on the on the on the surface of the planet talk about tyranny of distance across the oceans across large land masses and i talk about the tyranny of volume and you know right now we're looking out as far as the lunar sphere there's activity that's extending out to the out there we expect nasa to be conducting uh perhaps uh human operations in the lunar environment in the next few years so it extends out that far when you do the math that's a huge volume how do you do that how do you understand what's happening in real time in within that volume it is a big data problem by the very definition of that that kind of effort to that kind of challenge and to do it successfully in the years ahead it's going to require many many sensors and the fusion of data of all kinds to present a picture and then analytics and predictive analytics that are going to deliver an idea of what's going on in the space arena and that's just if people are not up to mischief once you have threats introduced into that environment it is even more challenging so i'd say it's a big data problem that we'll be enjoying uh tackling in the years ahead a second example is you know we if i if i had to if we had to take a vote of what were the most uh amazing robots that have ever been designed by humans i think that spacecraft would have to be up there on the list whether it's the nasa spacecraft that explore other planets or the ones that we or gps satellites that that amazingly uh provide a wonderful service to the entire globe uh and beyond they are amazing technological machines that's not going to stop i mean all the work that roland talked about at the at the even even that we're doing it at the kind of the microsoft level is is putting cutting-edge technology into smaller packages you can to get some sort of capability out of that as we expand our activities further and further into space for national security purposes or for exploration or commercial or civil the the cutting edge technologies of uh artificial intelligence uh and machine to machine engagements and machine learning are going to be part of that design work moving forward um and then there's the threat piece as we try to as we operate these these capabilities how these constellations grow that's going to be done via networks and as i've already pointed out space is a warfighting domain that means those networks will come under attack we expect that they will and that may happen early on in a conflict it may happen during peace time in the same way that we see cyber attacks all the time everywhere in many sectors of of activity and so by painting that picture you kind of get you we start to see how it's intertwined at the very very base most basic level the cutting edge of cyber and cutting edge of space with that then comes the need to any cutting edge cyber security capability that we have is naturally going to be needed as we develop space capabilities and we're going to have to bake that in from the very beginning we haven't done that in the past as well as we should but moving forward from this point on it will be an essential ingredient that we work into all of our new capability roland we're talking about now critical infrastructure we're talking about new capabilities being addressed really fast so it's kind of chaotic now there's threats so it's not as easy as just having capabilities because you've got to deal with the threats the general just pointed out but now you've got critical infrastructure which then will enable other things down down the line how do you protect it how do we address this how do you see this being addressed from a security standpoint because you know malware these techniques can be mapped in as extended into into space and takeovers wartime peacetime these things are all going to be under threat that's pretty well understood i think people kind of get that how do we address it what's your what's your take yeah you know absolutely and you know i couldn't agree more with general shaw you know with cyber security and space being so intertwined um and you know i think with fast and rapid innovation um comes you know the opportunity for threats especially um if you have bad actors um that you know want to cause harm and so you know as a technology innovator and you're pushing the bounds um you kind of have a common goal of um you know doing the best you can um and you know pushing the technology balance making it smaller faster cheaper um but a lot of times what entrepreneurs and you know small businesses and supply chains um are doing and don't realize it is a lot of these components are dual use right i mean you could have a very benign commercial application but then a small you know modification to it and turn it into a military application and if you do have these bad actors they can exploit that and so you know i think the the big thing is um creating a organization that is you know non-biased that just wants to kind of level the playing field for everybody to create a set standard for cyber security in space i think you know one group that would be perfect for that you know is um cci um you know they understand both the cybersecurity side of things and they also have you know at cal poly um you know the the small satellite group um and you know just having kind of a a clearinghouse or um an agency where um can provide information that is free um you know you don't need a membership for and to be able to kind of collect that but also you know reach out to the entire value chain you know for a mission and um making them aware um of you know what potential capabilities are and then how it might um be you know potentially used as a weapon um and you know keeping them informed because i think you know the the vast majority of people in the space industry just want to do the right thing and so how do we get that information free flowing to you know to the us government so that they can take that information create assessments and be able to not necessarily um stop threats from occurring presently but identify them long before that they would ever even happen um yeah that's you know general i want to i want to follow up on that real quick before we go to the next talk track critical infrastructure um you mentioned you know across the oceans long distance volume you know when you look at the physical world you know you had you know power grids here united states you had geography you had perimeters uh the notion of a perimeter and the moat this is and then you had digital comes in then you have we saw software open up and essentially take down this idea of a perimeter and from a defense standpoint and that everything changed and we had to fortify those critical assets uh in the u.s space increases the same problem statement significantly because it's you can't just have a perimeter you can't have a moat it's open it's everywhere like what digital's done and that's why we've seen a slurge of cyber in the past two decades attacks with software so this isn't going to go away you need the critical infrastructure you're putting it up there you're formulating it and you've got to protect it how do you view that because it's going to be an ongoing problem statement what's the current thinking yeah i i think my sense is a mindset that you can build a a firewall or a defense or some other uh system that isn't dynamic in his own right is probably not heading in the right direction i think cyber security in the future whether it's for our space systems or for other critical infrastructure is going to be a dynamic fight that happens at a machine-to-machine um a speed and dynamic um i don't think it's too far off where we will have uh machines writing their own code in real time to fight off attacks that are coming at them and by the way the offense will probably be doing the same kind of thing and so i i guess i would not want to think that the answer is something that you just build it and you leave it alone and it's good enough it's probably going to be a constantly evolving capability constantly reacting to new threats and staying ahead of those threats that's the kind of use case just to kind of you know as you were kind of anecdotal example is the exciting new software opportunities for computer science majors i mean i tell my young kids and everyone man it's more exciting now i wish i was 18 again it's so so exciting with ai bro i want to get your thoughts we were joking on another panel with the dod around space and the importance of it obviously and we're going to have that here and then we had a joke it's like oh software's defined everything it says software's everything ai and and i said well here in the united states companies had data centers and they went to the cloud and they said you can't do break fix it's hard to do break fix in space you can't just send a tech up i get that today but soon maybe robotics the general mentions robotics technologies and referencing some of the accomplishments fixing things is almost impossible in space but maybe form factors might get better certainly software will play a role what's your thoughts on that that landscape yeah absolutely you know for for software in orbit um you know there's there's a push for you know software-defined radios um to basically go from hardware to software um and you know that's that that's a critical link um if you can infiltrate that and a small satellite has propulsion on board you could you know take control of that satellite and cause a lot of havoc and so you know creating standards and you know that kind of um initial threshold of security um you know for let's say you know these radios you know communications and making that um available um to the entire supply chain to the satellite builders um and operators you know is incredibly key and you know that's again one of the initiatives that um that cci is um is tackling right now as well general i want to get your thoughts on best practices around cyber security um state of the art today uh and then some guiding principles and kind of how the if you shoot the trajectory forward what what might happen uh around um supply chain there's been many stories where oh we outsourced the chips and there's a little chip sitting in a thing and it's built by someone else in china and the software is written from someone in europe and the united states assembles it it gets shipped and it's it's corrupt and it has some cyber crime making i'm oversimplifying the the statement but this is what when you have space systems that involve intellectual property uh from multiple partners whether it's from software to creation and then deployment you get supply chain tiers what are some of the best practices that you see involving that don't stunt the innovation but continues to innovate but people can operate safely what's your thoughts yeah so on supply chain i think i think the symposium here is going to get to hear from lieutenant general jt thompson uh from space missile system center down in los angeles and and uh he's a he's just down the road from us there uh on the coast um and his team is is the one that we look to really focus on as he acquires and develop again bake in cyber security from the beginning and knowing where the components are coming from and and properly assessing those as you as you put together your space systems is a key uh piece of what his team is focused on so i expect we'll hear him talk about that when it talks to i think she asked the question a little more deeply about how do the best practices in terms of how we now develop moving forward well another way that we don't do it right is if we take a long time to build something and then you know general general jt thompson's folks take a while to build something and then they hand it over to to to me and my team to operate and then they go hands-free and and then and then that's you know that's what i have for for years to operate until the next thing comes along that's a little old school what we're going to have to do moving forward with our space capabilities and with the cyber piece baked in is continually developing new capability sets as we go we actually have partnership between general thompson's team and mine here at vandenberg on our ops floor or our combined space operations center that are actually working in real time together better tools that we can use to understand what's going on the space environment to better command and control our capabilities anywhere from military satellite communications to space domain awareness sensors and such and so and we're developing those capabilities in real time it's a dev and and with the security pieces so devsecops is we're practicing that in in real time i think that is probably the standard today that we're trying to live up to as we continue to evolve but it has to be done again in close partnership all the time it's not a sequential industrial age process while i'm on the subject of partnerships so general thompson's and team and mine have good partnerships it's part partnerships across the board are going to be another way that we are successful and that uh it means with with academia in some of the relationships that we have here with cal poly it's with the commercial sector in ways that we haven't done before the old style business was to work with just a few large um companies that had a lot of space experience well we need we need a lot of kinds of different experience and technologies now in order to really field good space capabilities and i expect we'll see more and more non-traditional companies being part of and and organizations being part of that partnership that will work going forward i mentioned at the beginning that um uh allies are important to us so everything that uh that role and i've been talking about i think you have to extrapolate out to allied partnerships right it doesn't help me uh as a combined force component commander which is again one of my jobs it doesn't help me if the united states capabilities are cyber secure but i'm trying to integrate them with capabilities from an ally that are not cyber secure so that partnership has to be dynamic and continually evolving together so again close partnering continually developing together from the acquisition to the operational sectors with as many um different sectors of our economy uh as possible are the ingredients to success general i'd love to just follow up real quick i was having just a quick reminder for a conversation i had with last year with general keith alexander who was does a lot of cyber security work and he was talking about the need to share faster and the new school is you got to share faster and to get the data you mentioned observability earlier you need to see what everything's out there he's a real passionate person around getting the data getting it fast and having trusted partners so that's not it's kind of evolving as i mean sharing is a well-known practice but with cyber it's sensitive data potentially so there's a trust relationship there's now a new ecosystem that's new for uh government how do you view all that and your thoughts on that trend of the sharing piece of it on cyber so it's i don't know if it's necessarily new but it's at a scale that we've never seen before and by the way it's vastly more complicated and complex when you overlay from a national security perspective classification of data and information at various levels and then that is again complicated by the fact you have different sharing relationships with different actors whether it's commercial academic or allies so it gets very very uh a complex web very quickly um so that's part of the challenge we're working through how can we how can we effectively share information at multiple classification levels with multiple partners in an optimal fashion it is certainly not optimal today it's it's very difficult even with maybe one industry partner for me to be able to talk about data at an unclassified level and then various other levels of classification to have the traditional networks in place to do that i could see a solution in the future where our cyber security is good enough that maybe i only really need one network and the information that is allowed to flow to the players within the right security environment um to uh to make that all happen as quickly as possible so you've actually uh john you've hit on yet another big challenge that we have is um is evolving our networks to properly share with the right people at the right uh clearance levels as at speed of war which is what we're going to need yeah and i wanted to call that out because this is an opportunity again this discussion here at cal poly and around the world is for new capabilities and new people to solve the problems and um it's again it's super exciting if you you know you're geeking out on this it's if you have a tech degree or you're interested in changing the world there's so many new things that could be applied right now roland will get your thoughts on this because one of the things in the tech trends we're seeing this is a massive shift all the theaters of the tech industry are are changing rapidly at the same time okay and it affects policy law but also deep tech the startup communities are super important in all this too we can't forget them obviously the big trusted players that are partnering certainly on these initiatives but your story about being in the dorm room now you got the boardroom and now you got everything in between you have startups out there that want to and can contribute and you know what's an itar i mean i got all these acronym certifications is there a community motion to bring startups in in a safe way but also give them a ability to contribute because you look at open source that proved everyone wrong on software that's happening now with this now open network concept the general is kind of alluding to which is it's a changing landscape your thoughts i know you're passionate about this yeah absolutely you know and i think um you know as general shaw mentioned you know we need to get information out there faster more timely and to the right people um and involving not only just stakeholders in the us but um internationally as well you know and as entrepreneurs um you know we have this very lofty vision or goal uh to change the world and um oftentimes um you know entrepreneurs including myself you know we put our heads down and we just run as fast as we can and we don't necessarily always kind of take a breath and take a step back and kind of look at what we're doing and how it's touching um you know other folks and in terms of a community i don't know of any formal community out there it's mostly ad hoc and you know these ad hoc communities are folks who let's say have you know was was a student working on a satellite um you know in college and they love that entrepreneurial spirit and so they said well i'm gonna start my own company and so you know a lot of the these ad hoc networks are just from relationships um that are that have been built over the last two decades um you know from from colleagues that you know at the university um i do think formalizing this and creating um kind of a you know clearinghouse to to handle all of this is incredibly important yeah um yeah there's gonna be a lot of entrepreneurial activity no doubt i mean just i mean there's too many things to work on and not enough time so i mean this brings up the question though while we're on this topic um you got the remote work with covid everyone's working remotely we're doing this remote um interview rather than being on stage works changing how people work and engage certainly physical will come back but if you looked at historically the space industry and the talent you know they're all clustered around the bases and there's always been these areas where you're you're a space person you're kind of working there and there's jobs there and if you were cyber you were 10 in other areas over the past decade there's been a cross-pollination of talent and location as you see the intersection of space general start with you you know first of all central coast is a great place to live i know that's where you guys live but you can start to bring together these two cultures sometimes they're you know not the same maybe they're getting better we know they're being integrated so general can you just share your thoughts because this is uh one of those topics that everyone's talking about but no one's actually kind of addressed directly um yeah john i i think so i think i want to answer this by talking about where i think the space force is going because i think if there was ever an opportunity or inflection point in our department of defense to sort of change culture and and try to bring in non-traditional kinds of thinking and and really kind of change uh maybe uh some of the ways that the department of defense has does things that are probably archaic space force is an inflection point for that uh general raymond our our chief of space operations has said publicly for a while now he wants the us space force to be the first truly digital service and uh you know what we what we mean by that is you know we want the folks that are in the space force to be the ones that are the first adopters or the early adopters of of technology um to be the ones most fluent in the cutting edge technological developments on space and cyber and and other um other sectors of the of of the of the economy that are technologically focused uh and i think there's some can that can generate some excitement i think and it means that we probably end up recruiting people into the space force that are not from the traditional recruiting areas that the rest of the department of defense looks to and i think it allows us to bring in a diversity of thought and diversity of perspective and a new kind of motivation um into the service that i think is frankly is is really exciting so if you put together everything i mentioned about how space and cyber are going to be best friends forever and i think there's always been an excitement in them you know from the very beginning in the american psyche about space you start to put all these ingredients together and i think you see where i'm going with this that really changed that cultural uh mindset that you were describing it's an exciting time for sure and again changing the world and this is what you're seeing today people do want to change world they want a modern world that's changing roy look at your thoughts on this i was having an interview a few years back with a tech entrepreneur um techie and we were joking we were just kind of riffing and we and i said everything that's on star trek will be invented and we're almost there actually if you think about it except for the transporter room you got video you got communicators so you know not to bring in the star trek reference with space force this is digital and you start thinking about some of the important trends it's going to be up and down the stack from hardware to software to user experience everything your thoughts and reaction yeah abs absolutely and so you know what we're seeing is um timeline timelines shrinking dramatically um because of the barrier to entry for you know um new entrants and you know even your existing aerospace companies is incredibly low right so if you take um previously where you had a technology on the ground and you wanted it in orbit it would take years because you would test it on the ground you would verify that it can operate in space in a space environment and then you would go ahead and launch it and you know we're talking tens if not hundreds of millions of dollars to do that now um we've cut that down from years to months when you have a prototype on the ground and you want to get it launched you don't necessarily care if it fails on orbit the first time because you're getting valuable data back and so you know we're seeing technology being developed you know for the first time on the ground and in orbit in a matter of a few months um and the whole kind of process um you know that that we're doing as a small business is you know trying to enable that and so allowing these entrepreneurs and small small companies to to get their technology in orbit at a price that is sometimes even cheaper than you know testing on the ground you know this is a great point i think this is really an important point to call out because we mentioned partnerships earlier the economics and the business model of space is doable i mean you do a mission study you get paid for that you have technology you can get stuff up up quickly and there's a cost structure there and again the alternative was waterfall planning years and millions now the form factors are different now again there may be different payloads involved but you can standardize payloads you got robotic arms all this is all available this brings up the congestion problem this is going to be on the top of mind the generals of course but you got the proliferation okay of these constellation systems you have more and more tech vectors i mean essentially that's malware i mean that's a probe you throw something up in space that could cause some interference maybe a takeover general this is the this is the real elephant in the room the threat matrix from new stuff and new configurations so general how does the proliferation of constellation systems change the threat matrix so i i think the uh you know i guess i'm gonna i'm gonna be a little more optimistic john than i think you pitched that i'm actually excited about these uh new mega constellations in leo um i'm excited about the the growing number of actors that are that are going into space for various reasons and why is that it's because we're starting to realize a new economic engine uh for the nation and for human society so the question is so so i think we want that to happen right when uh um when uh we could go to almost any any other domain in history and and and you know there when when air traffic air air travel started to become much much more commonplace with many kinds of uh actors from from private pilots flying their small planes all the way up to large airliners uh you know there there was a problem with congestion there was a problem about um challenges about uh behavior and are we gonna be able to manage this and yes we did and it was for the great benefit of society i could probably look to the maritime domain for similar kinds of things and so this is actually exciting about space we are just going to have to find the ways as a society and it's not just the department of defense it's going to be civil it's going to be international find the mechanisms to encourage this continued investment in the space domain i do think the space force uh will play a role in in providing security in the space environment as we venture further out as as economic opportunities emerge uh wherever they are um in the in the lunar earth lunar system or even within the solar system space force is going to play a role in that but i'm actually really excited about the those possibilities hey by the way i got to say you made me think of this when you talked about star trek and and and space force and our technologies i remember when i was younger watching the the next generation series i thought one of the coolest things because being a musician in my in my spare time i thought one of the coolest things was when um commander riker would walk into his quarters and and say computer play soft jazz and there would just be the computer would just play music you know and this was an age when you know we had we had hard uh um uh media right like how will that that is awesome man i can't wait for the 23rd century when i can do that and where we are today is is so incredible on those lines the things that i can ask alexa or siri to play um well that's the thing everything that's on star trek think about it almost invented i mean you got the computers you got the only thing really is the holograms are starting to come in you got now the transporter room now that's physics we'll work on that right right so there's a there is this uh a balance between physics and imagination but uh we have not exhausted either well um personally everyone that knows me knows i'm a huge star trek fan all the series of course i'm an original purist but at that level but this is about economic incentive as well roland i want to get your thoughts because you know the gloom and doom you got to think about the the bad stuff to make it good if i if i put my glass half full on the table there's economic incentives just like the example of the plane and the air traffic there's there's actors that are more actors that are incented to have a secure system what's your thoughts to general's comments around the optimism and and the potential threat matrix that needs to be managed absolutely so and you know one of the things that we've seen over the years um as you know we build these small satellites is a lot of the technology you know that the general is talking about um you know voice recognition miniaturized chips and sensors um started on the ground and i mean you know you have you know your iphone um that about 15 years ago before the first iphone came out um you know we were building small satellites in the lab and we were looking at cutting-edge state-of-the-art magnetometers and sensors um that we were putting in our satellites back then we didn't know if they were going to work and then um a few years later as these students graduate they go off and they go out to under you know other industries and so um some of the technology that was first kind of put in these cubesats in the early 2000s you know kind of ended up in the first generation iphone smartphones um and so being able to take that technology rapidly you know incorporate that into space and vice versa gives you an incredible economic advantage because um not only are your costs going down um because you know you're mass producing you know these types of terrestrial technologies um but then you can also um you know increase you know revenue and profit um you know by by having you know smaller and cheaper systems general let's talk about that for real quickly it's a good point i want to just shift it into the playbook i mean everyone talks about playbooks for management for tech for startups for success i mean one of the playbooks that's clear from in history is investment in r d around military and or innovation that has a long view spurs innovation commercially i mean just there's a huge many decades of history that shows that hey we got to start thinking about these these challenges and you know next you know it's in an iphone this is history this is not like a one-off and now with space force you get you're driving you're driving the main engine of innovation to be all digital you know we we riff about star trek which is fun but the reality is you're going to be on the front lines of some really new cool mind-blowing things could you share your thoughts on how you sell that people who write the checks or recruit more talent well so i first i totally agree with your thesis that the that you know national security well could probably go back an awful long way hundreds to thousands of years that security matters tend to drive an awful lot of innovation and creativity because um you know i think the the probably the two things that drive drive people the most are probably an opportunity to make money uh but only by beating that out are trying to stay alive um and uh and so i don't think that's going to go away and i do think that space force can play a role um as it pursues uh security uh structures you know within the space domain to further encourage economic investment and to protect our space capabilities for national security purposes are going to be at the cutting edge this isn't the first time um i think we can point back to the origins of the internet really started in the department of defense and with a partnership i should add with academia that's how the internet got started that was the creativity in order to to meet some needs there cryptography has its roots in security but we use it uh in in national security but now we use it in for economic reasons and meant and a host of other kinds of reasons and then space itself right i mean we still look back to uh apollo era as an inspiration for so many things that inspired people to to either begin careers in in technical areas or in space and and so on so i think i think in that same spirit you're absolutely right i guess i'm totally agreeing with your thesis the space force uh will be and a uh will have a positive inspirational influence in that way and we need to to realize that so when we are asking for when we're looking for how we need to meet capability needs we need to spread that net very far look for the most creative solutions and partner early and often with those that that can that can work on those when you're on the new frontier you've got to have a team sport it's a team effort you mentioned the internet just anecdotally i'm old enough to remember this because i remember the days that was going on and said the government if the policy decisions that the u.s made at that time was to let it go a little bit invisible hand they didn't try to commercialize it too fast and but there was some policy work that was done that had a direct effect to the innovation versus take it over and next you know it's out of control so i think you know i think this this just a cross-disciplinary skill set becomes a big thing where you need to have more people involved and that's one of the big themes of this symposium so it's a great point thank you for sharing that roland your thoughts on this because you know you got policy decisions we all want to run faster we want to be more innovative but you got to have some ops view now mostly ops people want things very tight very buttoned up secure the innovators want to go faster it's the yin and yang that's that's the world we live in how's it all balanced in your mind yeah um you know one of the things um that may not be apparently obvious is that you know the us government and department of um of defense is one of the biggest investors in technology in the aerospace sector um you know they're not the traditional venture capitalists but they're the ones that are driving technology innovation because there's funding um you know and when companies see that the us governments is interested in something businesses will will re-vector um you know to provide that capability and in the i would say the more recent years we've had a huge influx of private equity venture capital um coming into the markets to kind of help augment um you know the government investment and i think having a good partnership and a relationship with these private equity venture capitalists and the us government is incredibly important because the two sides you know can can help collaborate and kind of see a common goal but then also too on um you know the other side is you know there's that human element um and as general shaw was saying it's like not you know not only do companies you know obviously want to thrive and do really well some companies just want to stay alive um to see their technology kind of you know grow into what they've always dreamed of and you know oftentimes entrepreneurs um are put in a very difficult position because they have to make payroll they have to you know keep the lights on and so sometimes they'll take investment um from places where they may normally would not have you know from potentially foreign investment that could potentially you know cause issues with you know the you know the us supply chain well my final question is the best i wanted to say for last because i love the idea of human space flight i'd love to be on mars i'm not sure i'll be able to make it someday but how do you guys see the possible impacts of cyber security on expanding human space flight operations i mean general this is your wheelhouse this is urine command putting humans in space and certainly robots will be there because they're easy to go because they're not human but humans in space i mean you're starting to see the momentum the discussion uh people are are scratching that itch what's your take on that how do we see making this more possible well i i think we will see we will see uh commercial space tourism uh in the future i'm not sure how wide and large a scale it will become but we'll we will see that and um part of uh i think the mission of the space force is going to be probably to again do what we're doing today is have really good awareness of what's going on the domain to uh to to to ensure that that is done safely and i think a lot of what we do today will end up in civil organizations to do space traffic management and safety uh in in that uh arena um and uh um it is only a matter of time uh before we see um humans going even beyond the you know nasa has their plan the the artemis program to get back to the moon and the gateway initiative to establish a a space station there and that's going to be an exploration initiative but it is only a matter of time before we have um private citizens or private corporations putting people in space and not only for tourism but for economic activity and so it'll be really exciting to watch it would be really exciting and space force will be a part of it general roland i want to thank you for your valuable time to come on this symposium i really appreciate it final uh comment i'd love to you to spend a minute to share your personal thoughts on the importance of cyber security to space and we'll close it out we'll start with you roland yeah so i think that the biggest thing um i would like to try to get out of this you know from my own personal perspective is um creating that environment that allows um you know the the aerospace supply chain small businesses you know like ourselves be able to meet all the requirements um to protect um and safeguard our data but also um create a way that you know we can still thrive and it won't stifle innovation um you know i'm looking forward um to comments and questions um you know from the audience um to really kind of help um you know you know basically drive to that next step general final thoughts the importance of cyber security to space i'll just i'll go back to how i started i think john and say that space and cyber are forever intertwined they're bffs and whoever has my job 50 years from now or 100 years from now i predict they're going to be saying the exact same thing cyber and space are are intertwined for good we will always need the cutting edge cyber security capabilities that we develop as a nation or as a as a society to protect our space capabilities and our cyber capabilities are going to need space capabilities in the future as well general john shaw thank you very much roland cleo thank you very much for your great insight thank you to cal poly for putting this together i want to shout out to the team over there we couldn't be in person but we're doing a virtual remote event i'm john furrier with thecube and siliconangle here in silicon valley thanks for watching

>> Announcer: From around the globe, it's "theCUBE" covering Space and Cybersecurity Symposium 2020 hosted by Cal Poly. >> I want to welcome to theCUBE's coverage, we're here hosting with Cal Poly an amazing event, space and the intersection of cyber security. This session is Defending Satellite and Space Infrastructure from Cyber Threats. We've got two great guests. We've got Major General John Shaw of combined force space component commander, U.S. space command at Vandenberg Air Force Base in California and Roland Coelho, who's the CEO of Maverick Space Systems. Gentlemen, thank you for spending the time to come on to this session for the Cal Poly Space and Cybersecurity Symposium. Appreciate it. >> Absolutely. >> Guys defending satellites and space infrastructure is the new domain, obviously it's a war-fighting domain. It's also the future of the world. And this is an important topic because we rely on space now for our everyday life and it's becoming more and more critical. Everyone knows how their phones work and GPS, just small examples of all the impacts. I'd like to discuss with this hour, this topic with you guys. So if we can have you guys do an opening statement. General if you can start with your opening statement, we'll take it from there. >> Thanks John and greetings from Vandenberg Air Force Base. We are just down the road from Cal Poly here on the central coast of California, and very proud to be part of this effort and part of the partnership that we have with Cal Poly on a number of fronts. In my job here, I actually have two hats that I wear and it's I think, worth talking briefly about those to set the context for our discussion. You know, we had two major organizational events within our Department of Defense with regard to space last year in 2019. And probably the one that made the most headlines was the standup of the United States Space Force. That happened December 20th, last year, and again momentous, the first new branch in our military since 1947. And it's just over nine months old now, as we're makin' this recording. And already we're seein' a lot of change with regard to how we are approaching organizing, training, and equipping on a service side for space capabilities. And so, with regard to the Space Force, the hat I wear there is Commander of Space Operations Command. That was what was once 14th Air Force, when we were still part of the Air Force here at Vandenberg. And in that role, I'm responsible for the operational capabilities that we bring to the joint warfighter and to the world from a space perspective. Didn't make quite as many headlines, but another major change that happened last year was the reincarnation, I guess I would say, of United States Space Command. And that is a combatant command. It's how our Department of Defense organizes to actually conduct war-fighting operations. Most people are more familiar perhaps with Central Command, CENTCOM or Northern Command, NORTHCOM, or even Strategic Command, STRATCOM. Well, now we have a SPACECOM. We actually had one from 1985 until 2002, and then stood it down in the wake of the 9/11 attacks and a reorganization of Homeland Security. But we've now stood up a separate command again operationally, to conduct joint space operations. And in that organization, I wear a hat as a component commander, and that's the combined force-based component command working with other, all the additional capabilities that other services bring, as well as our allies. The combined in that title means that under certain circumstances, I would lead in an allied effort in space operations. And so it's actually a terrific job to have here on the central coast of California. Both working how we bring space capabilities to the fight on the Space Force side, and then how we actually operate those capabilities in support of joint warfighters around the world and national security interests. So that's the context. Now what also I should mention and you kind of alluded to John at your beginning, we're kind of in a changed situation than we were a number of years ago, in that we now see space as a war-fighting domain. For most of my career, goin' back a little ways, most of my focus in my jobs was making sure I could bring space capabilities to those that needed them. Bringing GPS to that special operations soldier on the ground somewhere in the world, bringing satellite communications for our nuclear command and control, bringing those capabilities for other uses. But I didn't have to worry in most of my career, about actually defending those space capabilities themselves. Well, now we do. We've actually gone to a point where we're are being threatened in space. We now are treating it more like any other domain, normalizing in that regard as a war-fighting domain. And so we're going through some relatively emergent efforts to protect and defend our capabilities in space, to design our capabilities to be defended, and perhaps most of all, to train our people for this new mission set. So it's a very exciting time, and I know we'll get into it, but you can't get very far into talking about all these space capabilities and how we want to protect and defend them and how we're going to continue their ability to deliver to warfighters around the globe, without talking about cyber, because they fit together very closely. So anyway, thanks for the chance to be here today. And I look forward to the discussion. >> General, thank you so much for that opening statement. And I would just say that not only is it historic with the Space Force, it's super exciting because it opens up so much more challenges and opportunities to do more and to do things differently. So I appreciate that statement. Roland in your opening statement. Your job is to put stuff in space, faster, cheaper, smaller, better, your opening statement, please. >> Yes, thank you, John. And yes, to General Shaw's point with the space domain and the need to protect it now is incredibly important. And I hope that we are more of a help than a thorn in your side in terms of building satellites smaller, faster, cheaper. Definitely looking forward to this discussion and figuring out ways where the entire space domain can work together, from industry to U.S. government, even to the academic environment as well. So first, I would like to say, and preface this by saying, I am not a cybersecurity expert. We build satellites and we launch them into orbit, but we are by no means cybersecurity experts. And that's why we like to partner with organizations like the California Cybersecurity Institute because they help us navigate these requirements. So I'm the CEO of Maverick Space Systems. We are a small aerospace business in San Luis Obispo, California. And we provide small satellite hardware and service solutions to a wide range of customers. All the way from the academic environment to the U.S. government and everything in between. We support customers through an entire program life cycle, from mission architecture and formulation, all the way to getting these customer satellites in orbit. And so what we try to do is provide hardware and services that basically make it easier for customers to get their satellites into orbit and to operate. So whether it be reducing mass or volume, creating greater launch opportunities, or providing the infrastructure and the technology to help those innovations mature in orbit, that's what we do. Our team has experience over the last 20 years, working with small satellites. And I'm definitely fortunate to be part of the team that invented the CubeSat standard by Cal Poly and Stanford back in 2000. And so, we are in VandenBerg's backyard. We came from Cal Poly San Luis Obispo and our hearts are fond of this area, and working with the local community. A lot of that success that we have had is directly attributable to the experiences that we learned as students, working on satellite programs from our professors and mentors. And that's all thanks to Cal Poly. So just wanted to tell a quick story. So back in 2000, just imagine a small group of undergraduate students, myself included, with the daunting task of launching multiple satellites from five different countries on a Russian launch vehicle. Many of us were only 18 or 19, not even at the legal age to drink yet, but as essentially teenagers we were managing million-dollar budgets. And we were coordinating groups from around the world. And we knew what we needed to accomplish, yet we didn't really know what we were doing when we first started. The university was extremely supportive and that's the Cal Poly learn-by-doing philosophy. I remember the first time we had a meeting with our university chief legal counsel, and we were discussing the need to register with the State Department for ITAR. Nobody really knew what ITAR was back then. And discussing this with the chief legal counsel, she was asking, "What is ITAR?" And we essentially had to explain, this is, launching satellites is part of the U.S. munitions list. And essentially we had a similar situation exporting munitions. We are in similar categories as weapons. And so, after that initial shock, everybody jumped in both feet forward, the university, our head legal counsel, professors, mentors, and the students knew we needed to tackle this problem because the need was there to launch these small satellites. And the reason this is important to capture the entire spectrum of users of the community, is that the technology and the innovation of the small satellite industry occurs at all levels, so we have academia, commercial, national governments. We even have high schools and middle schools getting involved and building satellite hardware. And the thing is the importance of cybersecurity is incredibly important because it touches all of these programs and it touches people at a very young age. And so, we hope to have a conversation today to figure out how do we create an environment where we allow these programs to thrive, but we also protect and keep their data safe as well. >> Thank you very much Roland. Appreciate that a story too as well. Thanks for your opening statement. Gentlemen, I mean I love this topic because defending the assets in space is obvious, if you look at it. But there's a bigger picture going on in our world right now. And general, you kind of pointed out the historic nature of Space Force and how it's changing already, operationally, training, skills, tools, all that stuff is evolving. You know in the tech world that I live in, change the world is a topic they use, gets thrown around a lot, you can change the world. A lot of young people, and we have other panels on this where we're talkin' about how to motivate young people, changing the world is what it's all about technology, for the better. Evolution is just an extension of another domain. In this case, space is just an extension of other domains, similar things are happening, but it's different. There's huge opportunity to change the world, so it's faster. There's an expanded commercial landscape out there. Certainly government space systems are moving and changing. How do we address the importance of cybersecurity in space? General, we'll start with you because this is real, it's exciting. If you're a young person, there's touch points of things to jump into, tech, building hardware, to changing laws, and everything in between is an opportunity, and it's exciting. And it is truly a chance to change the world. How does the commercial government space systems teams, address the importance of cybersecurity? >> So, John, I think it starts with the realization that as I like to say, that cyber and space are BFFs. There's nothing that we do on the cutting edge of space that isn't heavily reliant on the cutting edge of cyber. And frankly, there's probably nothing on the cutting edge of cyber that doesn't have a space application. And when you realize that and you see how closely those are intertwined as we need to move forward at speed, it becomes fundamental to answering your question. Let me give a couple examples. One of the biggest challenges I have on a daily basis is understanding what's going on in the space domain. Those on the surface of the planet talk about tyranny of distance across the oceans or across large land masses. And I talk about the tyranny of volume. And right now, we're looking out as far as the lunar sphere. There's activity that's extending out there. We expect NASA to be conducting perhaps human operations in the lunar environment in the next few years. So it extends out that far. When you do the math that's a huge volume. How do you do that? How do you understand what's happening in real time within that volume? It is a big data problem by the very definition of that kind of effort and that kind of challenge. And to do it successfully in the years ahead, it's going to require many, many sensors and the fusion of data of all kinds, to present a picture and then analytics and predictive analytics that are going to deliver an idea of what's going on in the space arena. And that's just if people are not up to mischief. Once you have threats introduced into that environment, it is even more challenging. So I'd say it's a big data problem that we'll enjoy tackling in the years ahead. Now, a second example is, if we had to take a vote of what were the most amazing robots that have ever been designed by humans, I think that spacecraft would have to be up there on the list. Whether it's the NASA spacecraft that explore other planets, or GPS satellites that amazingly provide a wonderful service to the entire globe and beyond. They are amazing technological machines. That's not going to stop. I mean, all the work that Roland talked about, even that we're doin' at the kind of the microsat level is putting cutting-edge technology into small a package as you can to get some sort of capability out of that. As we expand our activities further and further into space for national security purposes, or for exploration or commercial or civil, the cutting-edge technologies of artificial intelligence and machine-to-machine engagements and machine learning are going to be part of that design work moving forward. And then there's the threat piece. As we operate these capabilities, as these constellations grow, that's going to be done via networks. And as I've already pointed out space is a war-fighting domain. That means those networks will come under attack. We expect that they will and that may happen early on in a conflict. It may happen during peace time in the same way that we see cyber attacks all the time, everywhere in many sectors of activity. And so by painting that picture, we start to see how it's intertwined at the very, very most basic level, the cutting edge of cyber and cutting edge of space. With that then comes the need to, any cutting edge cybersecurity capability that we have is naturally going to be needed as we develop space capabilities. And we're going to have to bake that in from the very beginning. We haven't done that in the past as well as we should, but moving forward from this point on, it will be an essential ingredient that we work into all of our capability. >> Roland, we're talkin' about now, critical infrastructure. We're talkin' about new capabilities being addressed really fast. So, it's kind of chaotic now there's threats. So it's not as easy as just having capabilities, 'cause you've got to deal with the threats the general just pointed out. But now you've got critical infrastructure, which then will enable other things down the line. How do you protect it? How do we address this? How do you see this being addressed from a security standpoint? Because malware, these techniques can be mapped in, extended into space and takeovers, wartime, peace time, these things are all going to be under threat. That's pretty well understood, and I think people kind of get that. How do we address it? What's your take? >> Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And I couldn't agree more with General Shaw, with cybersecurity and space being so intertwined. And, I think with fast and rapid innovation comes the opportunity for threats, especially if you have bad actors that want to cause harm. And so, as a technology innovator and you're pushing the bounds, you kind of have a common goal of doing the best you can, and pushing the technology bounds, making it smaller, faster, cheaper. But a lot of times what entrepreneurs and small businesses and supply chains are doing, and don't realize it, is a lot of these components are dual use. I mean, you could have a very benign commercial application, but then a small modification to it, can turn it into a military application. And if you do have these bad actors, they can exploit that. And so, I think that the big thing is creating a organization that is non-biased, that just wants to kind of level the playing field for everybody to create a set standard for cybersecurity in space. I think one group that would be perfect for that is CCI. They understand both the cybersecurity side of things, and they also have at Cal Poly the small satellite group. And just having kind of a clearing house or an agency where can provide information that is free, you don't need a membership for. And to be able to kind of collect that, but also reach out to the entire value chain for a mission, and making them aware of what potential capabilities are and then how it might be potentially used as a weapon. And keeping them informed, because I think the vast majority of people in the space industry just want to do the right thing. And so, how do we get that information free flowing to the U.S. government so that they can take that information, create assessments, and be able to, not necessarily stop threats from occurring presently, but identify them long before that they would ever even happen. Yeah, that's- >> General, I want to follow up on that real quick before we move to the next top track. Critical infrastructure you mentioned, across the oceans long distance, volume. When you look at the physical world, you had power grids here in the United States, you had geography, you had perimeters, the notion of a perimeter and a moat, and then you had digital comes in. Then you have, we saw software open up, and essentially take down this idea of a perimeter, and from a defense standpoint, and everything changed. And we have to fortify those critical assets in the U.S. Space increases the same problem statement significantly, because you can't just have a perimeter, you can't have a moat, it's open, it's everywhere. Like what digital's done, and that's why we've seen a surge of cyber in the past two decades, attacks with software. So, this isn't going to go away. You need the critical infrastructure, you're putting it up there, you're formulating it, and you got to protect it. How do you view that? Because it's going to be an ongoing problem statement. What's the current thinking? >> Yeah, I think my sense is that a mindset that you can build a firewall, or a defense, or some other system that isn't dynamic in its own right, is probably not headed in the right direction. I think cybersecurity in the future, whether it's for space systems, or for other critical infrastructure is going to be a dynamic fight that happens at a machine-to-machine speed and dynamic. I don't think that it's too far off where we will have machines writing their own code in real time to fight off attacks that are coming at them. And by the way, the offense will probably be doing the same kind of thing. And so, I guess I would not want to think that the answer is something that you just build it and you leave it alone and it's good enough. It's probably going to be a constantly-evolving capability, constantly reacting to new threats and staying ahead of those threats. >> That's the kind of use case, you know as you were, kind of anecdotal example is the exciting new software opportunities for computer science majors. I mean, I tell my young kids and everyone, man it's more exciting now. I wish I was 18 again, it's so exciting with AI. Roland, I want to get your thoughts. We were joking on another panel with the DoD around space and the importance of it obviously, and we're going to have that here. And then we had a joke. It's like, oh software's defined everything. Software's everything, AI. And I said, "Well here in the United States, companies had data centers and then they went to the cloud." And then he said, "You can do break, fix, it's hard to do break, fix in space. You can't just send a tech up." I get that today, but soon maybe robotics. The general mentions robotics technologies, in referencing some of the accomplishments. Fixing things is almost impossible in space. But maybe form factors might get better. Certainly software will play a role. What's your thoughts on that landscape? >> Yeah, absolutely. You know, for software in orbit, there's a push for software-defined radios to basically go from hardware to software. And that's a critical link. If you can infiltrate that and a small satellite has propulsion on board, you could take control of that satellite and cause a lot of havoc. And so, creating standards and that kind of initial threshold of security, for let's say these radios, or communications and making that available to the entire supply chain, to the satellite builders, and operators is incredibly key. And that's again, one of the initiatives that CCI is tackling right now as well. >> General, I want to get your thoughts on best practices around cybersecurity, state-of-the-art today, and then some guiding principles, and kind of how the, if you shoot the trajectory forward, what might happen around supply chain? There's been many stories where, we outsource the chips and there's a little chip sittin' in a thing and it's built by someone else in China, and the software is written from someone in Europe, and the United States assembles it, it gets shipped and it's corrupt, and it has some cyber, I'm making it up, I'm oversimplifying the statement. But this is what when you have space systems that involve intellectual property from multiple partners, whether it's from software to creation and then deployment. You got supply chain tiers. What are some of best practices that you see involving, that don't stunt the innovation, but continues to innovate, but people can operate safely. What's your thoughts? >> Yeah, so on supply chain, I think the symposium here is going to get to hear from General JT Thompson from space and missile system center down in Los Angeles, and he's just down the road from us there on the coast. And his team is the one that we look to to really focus on, as he fires and develops to again bake in cybersecurity from the beginning and knowing where the components are coming from, and properly assessing those as you put together your space systems, is a key piece of what his team is focused on. So I expect, we'll hear him talk about that. When it talks to, I think, so you asked the question a little more deeply about how do the best practices in terms of how we now develop moving forward. Well, another way that we don't do it right, is if we take a long time to build something and then General JT Thompson's folks take a while to build something, and then they hand it over to me, and my team operate and then they go hands free. And then that's what I have for years to operate until the next thing comes along. That's a little old school. What we're going to have to do moving forward with our space capabilities, and with the cyber piece baked in is continually developing new capability sets as we go. We actually have partnership between General Thompson's team and mine here at Vandenberg on our ops floor, or our combined space operation center, that are actually working in real time together, better tools that we can use to understand what's going on in the space environment to better command and control our capabilities anywhere from military satellite communications, to space domain awareness, sensors, and such. And we're developing those capabilities in real time. And with the security pieces. So DevSecOps is we're practicing that in real time. I think that is probably the standard today that we're trying to live up to as we continue to evolve. But it has to be done again, in close partnership all the time. It's not a sequential, industrial-age process. While I'm on the subject of partnerships. So, General Thompson's team and mine have good partnerships. It's partnerships across the board are going to be another way that we are successful. And that it means with academia and some of the relationships that we have here with Cal Poly. It's with the commercial sector in ways that we haven't done before. The old style business was to work with just a few large companies that had a lot of space experience. Well, we need a lot of kinds of different experience and technologies now in order to really field good space capabilities. And I expect we'll see more and more non-traditional companies being part of, and organizations, being part of that partnership that will work goin' forward. I mentioned at the beginning that allies are important to us. So everything that Roland and I have been talking about I think you have to extrapolate out to allied partnerships. It doesn't help me as a combined force component commander, which is again, one of my jobs. It doesn't help me if the United States capabilities are cybersecure, but I'm tryin' to integrate them with capabilities from an ally that are not cybersecure. So that partnership has to be dynamic and continually evolving together. So again, close partnering, continually developing together from the acquisition to the operational sectors, with as many different sectors of our economy as possible, are the ingredients to success. >> General, I'd love to just follow up real quick. I was having just a quick reminder for a conversation I had with last year with General Keith Alexander, who does a lot of cybersecurity work, and he was talking about the need to share faster. And the new school is you got to share faster to get the data, you mentioned observability earlier, you need to see what everything's out there. He's a real passionate person around getting the data, getting it fast and having trusted partners. So that's not, it's kind of evolving as, I mean, sharing's a well known practice, but with cyber it's sensitive data potentially. So there's a trust relationship. There's now a new ecosystem. That's new for government. How do you view all that and your thoughts on that trend of the sharing piece of it on cyber? >> So, I don't know if it's necessarily new, but it's at a scale that we've never seen before. And by the way, it's vastly more complicated and complex when you overlay from a national security perspective, classification of data and information at various levels. And then that is again complicated by the fact you have different sharing relationships with different actors, whether it's commercial, academic, or allies. So it gets very, very complex web very quickly. So that's part of the challenge we're workin' through. How can we effectively share information at multiple classification levels with multiple partners in an optimal fashion? It is certainly not optimal today. It's very difficult, even with maybe one industry partner for me to be able to talk about data at an unclassified level, and then various other levels of classification to have the traditional networks in place to do that. I could see a solution in the future where our cybersecurity is good enough that maybe I only really need one network and the information that is allowed to flow to the players within the right security environment to make that all happen as quickly as possible. So you've actually, John you've hit on yet another big challenge that we have, is evolving our networks to properly share, with the right people, at the right clearance levels at the speed of war, which is what we're going to need. >> Yeah, and I wanted to call that out because this is an opportunity, again, this discussion here at Cal Poly and around the world is for new capabilities and new people to solve the problems. It's again, it's super exciting if you're geeking out on this. If you have a tech degree or you're interested in changin' the world, there's so many new things that could be applied right now. Roland, I want to get your thoughts on this, because one of the things in the tech trends we're seeing, and this is a massive shift, all the theaters of the tech industry are changing rapidly at the same time. And it affects policy law, but also deep tech. The startup communities are super important in all this too. We can't forget them. Obviously, the big trusted players that are partnering certainly on these initiatives, but your story about being in the dorm room. Now you've got the boardroom and now you got everything in between. You have startups out there that want to and can contribute. You know, what's an ITAR? I mean, I got all these acronym certifications. Is there a community motion to bring startups in, in a safe way, but also give them ability to contribute? Because you look at open source, that proved everyone wrong on software. That's happening now with this now open network concept, the general was kind of alluding to. Which is, it's a changing landscape. Your thoughts, I know you're passionate about this. >> Yeah, absolutely. And I think as General Shaw mentioned, we need to get information out there faster, more timely and to the right people, and involving not only just stakeholders in the U.S., but internationally as well. And as entrepreneurs, we have this very lofty vision or goal to change the world. And oftentimes, entrepreneurs, including myself, we put our heads down and we just run as fast as we can. And we don't necessarily always kind of take a breath and take a step back and kind of look at what we're doing and how it's touching other folks. And in terms of a community, I don't know of any formal community out there, it's mostly ad hoc. And, these ad hoc communities are folks who let's say was a student working on a satellite in college. And they loved that entrepreneurial spirit. And so they said, "Well, I'm going to start my own company." And so, a lot of these ad hoc networks are just from relationships that have been built over the last two decades from colleagues at the university. I do think formalizing this and creating kind of a clearing house to handle all of this is incredibly important. >> And there's going to be a lot of entrepreneurial activity, no doubt, I mean there's too many things to work on and not enough time. I mean this brings up the question that I'm going to, while we're on this topic, you got the remote work with COVID, everyone's workin' remotely, we're doin' this remote interview rather than being on stage. Work's changing, how people work and engage. Certainly physical will come back. But if you looked at historically the space industry and the talent, they're all clustered around the bases. And there's always been these areas where you're a space person. You kind of work in there and the job's there. And if you were cyber, you were generally in other areas. Over the past decade, there's been a cross-pollination of talent and location. As you see the intersection of space, general we'll start with you, first of all, central coast is a great place to live. I know that's where you guys live. But you can start to bring together these two cultures. Sometimes they're not the same. Maybe they're getting better. We know they're being integrated. So general, can you just share your thoughts because this is one of those topics that everyone's talkin' about, but no one's actually kind of addressed directly. >> Yeah, John, I think so. I think I want to answer this by talkin' about where I think the Space Force is going. Because I think if there was ever an opportunity or an inflection point in our Department of Defense to sort of change culture and try to bring in non-traditional kinds of thinking and really kind of change maybe some of the ways that the Department of Defense does things that are probably archaic, Space Force is an inflection point for that. General Raymond, our Chief of Space Operations, has said publicly for awhile now, he wants the U.S. Space Force to be the first truly digital service. And what we mean by that is we want the folks that are in the Space Force to be the ones that are the first adopters, the early adopters of technology. To be the ones most fluent in the cutting edge, technologic developments on space and cyber and other sectors of the economy that are technologically focused. And I think there's some, that can generate some excitement, I think. And it means that we'll probably ended up recruiting people into the Space Force that are not from the traditional recruiting areas that the rest of the Department of Defense looks to. And I think it allows us to bring in a diversity of thought and diversity of perspective and a new kind of motivation into the service, that I think is frankly really exciting. So if you put together everything I mentioned about how space and cyber are going to be best friends forever. And I think there's always been an excitement from the very beginning in the American psyche about space. You start to put all these ingredients together, and I think you see where I'm goin' with this. That this is a chance to really change that cultural mindset that you were describing. >> It's an exciting time for sure. And again, changing the world. And this is what you're seeing today. People do want to change the world. They want a modern world that's changing. Roland, I'll get your thoughts on this. I was having an interview a few years back with a technology entrepreneur, a techie, and we were joking, we were just kind of riffing. And I said, "Everything that's on "Star Trek" will be invented." And we're almost there actually, if you think about it, except for the transporter room. You got video, you got communicators. So, not to bring in the "Star Trek" reference with Space Force, this is digital. And you start thinking about some of the important trends, it's going to be up and down the stack, from hardware to software, to user experience, everything. Your thoughts and reaction. >> Yeah, absolutely. And so, what we're seeing is timelines shrinking dramatically because of the barrier to entry for new entrants and even your existing aerospace companies is incredibly low, right? So if you take previously where you had a technology on the ground and you wanted it in orbit, it would take years. Because you would test it on the ground. You would verify that it can operate in a space environment. And then you would go ahead and launch it. And we're talking tens, if not hundreds of millions of dollars to do that. Now, we've cut that down from years to months. When you have a prototype on the ground and you want to get it launched, you don't necessarily care if it fails on orbit the first time, because you're getting valuable data back. And so, we're seeing technology being developed for the first time on the ground and in orbit in a matter of a few months. And the whole kind of process that we're doing as a small business is trying to enable that. And so, allowing these entrepreneurs and small companies to get their technology in orbit at a price that is sometimes even cheaper than testing on the ground. >> You know this is a great point. I think this is really an important point to call out because we mentioned partnerships earlier, the economics and the business model of space is doable. I mean, you do a mission study. You get paid for that. You have technology that you get stuff up quickly, and there's a cost structure there. And again, the alternative was waterfall planning, years and millions. Now the form factors are doing, now, again, there may be different payloads involved, but you can standardize payloads. You've got robotic arms. This is all available. This brings up the congestion problem. This is going to be on the top of mind of the generals of course, but you've got the proliferation of these constellation systems. You're going to have more and more tech vectors. I mean, essentially that's malware. I mean, that's a probe. You throw something up in space that could cause some interference. Maybe a takeover. General, this is the real elephant in the room, the threat matrix from new stuff and new configurations. So general, how does the proliferation of constellation systems change the threat matrix? >> So I think the, you know I guess I'm going to be a little more optimistic John than I think you pitched that. I'm actually excited about these new mega constellations in LEO. I'm excited about the growing number of actors that are going into space for various reasons. And why is that? It's because we're starting to realize a new economic engine for the nation and for human society. So the question is, so I think we want that to happen. When we could go to almost any other domain in history and when air travel started to become much, much more commonplace with many kinds of actors from private pilots flying their small planes, all the way up to large airliners, there was a problem with congestion. There was a problem about, challenges about behavior, and are we going to be able to manage this? And yes we did. And it was for the great benefit of society. I could probably look to the maritime domain for similar kinds of things. And so this is actually exciting about space. We are just going to have to find the ways as a society, and it's not just the Department of Defense, it's going to be civil, it's going to be international, find the mechanisms to encourage this continued investment in the space domain. I do think that Space Force will play a role in providing security in the space environment, as we venture further out, as economic opportunities emerge, wherever they are in the lunar, Earth, lunar system, or even within the solar system. Space Force is going to play a role in that. But I'm actually really excited about those possibilities. Hey, by the way, I got to say, you made me think of this when you talked about "Star Trek" and Space Force and our technologies, I remember when I was younger watchin' the Next Generation series. I thought one of the coolest things, 'cause bein' a musician in my spare time, I thought one of the coolest things was when Commander Riker would walk into his quarters and say, "Computer play soft jazz." And there would just be, the computer would just play music. And this was an age when we had hard media. Like how will that, that is awesome. Man, I can't wait for the 23rd century when I can do that. And where we are today is so incredible on those lines. The things that I can ask Alexa or Siri to play. >> Well that's the thing, everything that's on "Star Trek," think about it, it's almost invented. I mean, you got the computers, you got, the only thing really is, holograms are startin' to come in, you got, now the transporter room. Now that's physics. We'll work on that. >> So there is this balance between physics and imagination, but we have not exhausted either. >> Well, firstly, everyone that knows me knows I'm a huge "Star Trek" fan, all the series. Of course, I'm an original purist, but at that level. But this is about economic incentive as well. Roland, I want to get your thoughts, 'cause the gloom and doom, we got to think about the bad stuff to make it good. If I put my glass half full on the table, this economic incentives, just like the example of the plane and the air traffic. There's more actors that are incented to have a secure system. What's your thoughts to general's comments around the optimism and the potential threat matrix that needs to be managed. >> Absolutely, so one of the things that we've seen over the years, as we build these small satellites is a lot of that technology that the General's talking about, voice recognition, miniaturized chips, and sensors, started on the ground. And I mean, you have your iPhone, that, about 15 years ago before the first iPhone came out, we were building small satellites in the lab and we were looking at cutting-edge, state-of-the-art magnetometers and sensors that we were putting in our satellites back then. We didn't know if they were going to work. And then a few years later, as these students graduate, they go off and they go out to other industries. And so, some of the technology that was first kind of put in these CubeSats in the early 2000s, kind of ended up in the first generation iPhone, smartphones. And so being able to take that technology, rapidly incorporate that into space and vice versa gives you an incredible economic advantage. Because not only are your costs going down because you're mass producing these types of terrestrial technologies, but then you can also increase revenue and profit by having smaller and cheaper systems. >> General, let's talk about that real quickly, that's a good point, I want to just shift it into the playbook. I mean, everyone talks about playbooks for management, for tech, for startups, for success. I mean, one of the playbooks that's clear from your history is investment in R&D around military and/or innovation that has a long view, spurs innovation, commercially. I mean, just there's a huge, many decades of history that shows that, hey we got to start thinking about these challenges. And next thing you know it's in an iPhone. This is history, this is not like a one off. And now with Space Force you're driving the main engine of innovation to be all digital. You know, we riff about "Star Trek" which is fun, the reality is you're going to be on the front lines of some really new, cool, mind-blowing things. Could you share your thoughts on how you sell that to the people who write the checks or recruit more talent? >> First, I totally agree with your thesis that national security, well, could probably go back an awful long way, hundreds to thousands of years, that security matters tend to drive an awful lot of innovation and creativity. You know I think probably the two things that drive people the most are probably an opportunity to make money, but beating that out are trying to stay alive. And so, I don't think that's going to go away. And I do think that Space Force can play a role as it pursues security structures, within the space domain to further encourage economic investment and to protect our space capabilities for national security purposes, are going to be at the cutting edge. This isn't the first time. I think we can point back to the origins of the internet, really started in the Department of Defense, with a partnership I should add, with academia. That's how the internet got started. That was the creativity in order to meet some needs there. Cryptography has its roots in security, in national security, but now we use it for economic reasons and a host of other kinds of reasons. And then space itself, I mean, we still look back to Apollo era as an inspiration for so many things that inspired people to either begin careers in technical areas or in space and so on. So I think in that same spirit, you're absolutely right. I guess I'm totally agreeing with your thesis. The Space Force will have a positive, inspirational influence in that way. And we need to realize that. So when we are asking for, when we're looking for how we need to meet capability needs, we need to spread that net very far, look for the most creative solutions and partner early and often with those that can work on those. >> When you're on the new frontier, you got to have a team sport, it's a team effort. And you mentioned the internet, just anecdotally I'm old enough to remember this 'cause I remember the days that it was goin' on, is that the policy decisions that the U.S. made at that time was to let it go a little bit invisible hand. They didn't try to commercialize it too fast. But there was some policy work that was done, that had a direct effect to the innovation. Versus take it over, and the next thing you know it's out of control. So I think there's this cross-disciplinary skillset becomes a big thing where you need to have more people involved. And that's one of the big themes of this symposium. So it's a great point. Thank you for sharing that. Roland, your thoughts on this because you got policy decisions. We all want to run faster. We want to be more innovative, but you got to have some ops view. Now, most of the ops view people want things very tight, very buttoned up, secure. The innovators want to go faster. It's the ying and yang. That's the world we live in. How's it all balance in your mind? >> Yeah, one of the things that may not be apparently obvious is that the U.S. government and Department of Defense is one of the biggest investors in technology in the aerospace sector. They're not the traditional venture capitalists, but they're the ones that are driving technology innovation because there's funding. And when companies see that the U.S. government is interested in something, businesses will revector to provide that capability. And, I would say the more recent years, we've had a huge influx of private equity, venture capital coming into the markets to kind of help augment the government investment. And I think having a good partnership and a relationship with these private equity, venture capitalists and the U.S. government is incredibly important because the two sides can help collaborate and kind of see a common goal. But then also too, on the other side there's that human element. And as General Shaw was saying, not only do companies obviously want to thrive and do really well, some companies just want to stay alive to see their technology kind of grow into what they've always dreamed of. And oftentimes entrepreneurs are put in a very difficult position because they have to make payroll, they have to keep the lights on. And so, sometimes they'll take investment from places where they may normally would not have, from potentially foreign investment that could potentially cause issues with the U.S. supply chain. >> Well, my final question is the best I wanted to save for last, because I love the idea of human space flight. I'd love to be on Mars. I'm not sure I'm able to make it someday, but how do you guys see the possible impacts of cybersecurity on expanding human space flight operations? I mean, general, this is your wheelhouse. This is your in command, putting humans in space and certainly robots will be there because they're easy to go 'cause they're not human. But humans in space. I mean, you startin' to see the momentum, the discussion, people are scratchin' that itch. What's your take on that? How do we see makin' this more possible? >> Well, I think we will see commercial space tourism in the future. I'm not sure how wide and large a scale it will become, but we will see that. And part of the, I think the mission of the Space Force is going to be probably to again, do what we're doin' today is have really good awareness of what's going on in the domain to ensure that that is done safely. And I think a lot of what we do today will end up in civil organizations to do space traffic management and safety in that arena. And, it is only a matter of time before we see humans going, even beyond the, NASA has their plan, the Artemis program to get back to the moon and the gateway initiative to establish a space station there. And that's going to be a NASA exploration initiative. But it is only a matter of time before we have private citizens or private corporations putting people in space and not only for tourism, but for economic activity. And so it'll be really exciting to watch. It'll be really exciting and Space Force will be a part of it. >> General, Roland, I want to thank you for your valuable time to come on this symposium. Really appreciate it. Final comment, I'd love you to spend a minute to share your personal thoughts on the importance of cybersecurity to space and we'll close it out. We'll start with you Roland. >> Yeah, so I think the biggest thing I would like to try to get out of this from my own personal perspective is creating that environment that allows the aerospace supply chain, small businesses like ourselves, be able to meet all the requirements to protect and safeguard our data, but also create a way that we can still thrive and it won't stifle innovation. I'm looking forward to comments and questions, from the audience to really kind of help, basically drive to that next step. >> General final thoughts, the importance of cybersecurity to space. >> I'll go back to how I started I think John and say that space and cyber are forever intertwined, they're BFFs. And whoever has my job 50 years from now, or a hundred years from now, I predict they're going to be sayin' the exact same thing. Cyber and space are intertwined for good. We will always need the cutting edge, cybersecurity capabilities that we develop as a nation or as a society to protect our space capabilities. And our cyber capabilities are going to need space capabilities in the future as well. >> General John Shaw, thank you very much. Roland Coelho, thank you very much for your great insight. Thank you to Cal Poly for puttin' this together. I want to shout out to the team over there. We couldn't be in-person, but we're doing a virtual remote event. I'm John Furrier with "theCUBE" and SiliconANGLE here in Silicon Valley, thanks for watching. (upbeat music)

>> Live from Barcelona, Spain, it's theCUBE, covering Cisco Live Europe, brought to you by Cisco and its ecosystem partners. >> Welcome back to theCUBE's live coverage here in Barcelona, Spain, for Cisco Live Europe 2019. I'm John Furrier, your host of theCUBE, with Dave Vellante as well, Stu Miniman, who's been doing interviews with us all week, our next guest is Roland Acra, Senior Vice President, General Manager of the Data Center Group. He's in charge of that core business of data center now, at the center of cloud and the edge. Roland, great to see you, thanks for coming on. >> Thank you, thank you for having me. >> So a lot of announcements, a lot of the big guns are out there for Cisco, you got the data center, you got the networking group, and you got IoT, and then cloud center suite was part of the big announcement, your team had a big piece of the keynote yesterday and continues to make waves. Give us a quick update on the news, the key points, what was the announcements? >> Yeah, the two big announcements for my group were ACI Anywhere and HyperFlex Anywhere, and we captured them under a common moniker of There's Nothing Centered About the Data Center Anymore, because both of these speak to things going outside the data center. ACI Anywhere is the integration of ACI, our software-defined networking solution, into two of the most prominent public cloud providers out there, Amazon and Azure, and for HyperFlex Anywhere, the exciting news is the expansion of HyperFlex, which is our hyper-converged solution, also outside the data center, to the edge of the enterprise, specifically branch offices and remote locations. >> And the other thing that came out of our conversation here on theCUBE and also on the keynote, is that the center of the value is the data center, as you guys pointed out with the slides, big circle in the middle, ACI Anywhere, HyperFlex Anywhere, but the network and the data and the security foundation has been a critical part of this new growth. >> Yes. >> Take a minute to explain the journey of ACI, how it started, where are we? It's been a progression for you guys, certainly inside the enterprise, but now it's extended. What's the journey, take us through that. >> When ACI came into the market five years ago now, we have a five year anniversary, ACI brought a software-defined networking solution into the market. It brought an automated network fabric capability, which said you can no longer screw yourself up by having incoherence between one part of the network and another, it's all managed coherently as one thing, and it brought, to your point about security, what's called segmentation of applications. Today, applications have data, they have databases, they have different sensitive pieces, and it's important to be able to tell the network not only get the traffic from one place to the other, but also selectively get the traffic that I tell you to get there, and not the one, and don't get the traffic that has no business getting there, and that's known as segmentation, which is a security concern, particularly when you have sensitive data like consumer data or things that have regulatory things around them. ACI has brought that to the market. That was the value proposition of ACI. We worked on then expanding ACI in the direction of scale. Customers have two or more data centers for disaster recovery, for resiliency, we made that possible. We got to bigger and bigger footprints. Then we took ACI to the edge of the enterprise. What if somebody wanted to put some computing capability in a store, or in a logistics center. ACI then was expanded with that. Step N minus one, was we took ACI to bare metal clouds. Customers now want to deploy also things in co-locations or bare metal clouds. We decoupled ACI software from the Cisco switches, which is the ACI hardware, and ACI became completely virtualized, and still able to be doing everything it does in hardware on premise, in software instead, in somebody's else's capability. And yesterday we announced the full combination of this, which is what if you don't want the ACI soft switching or hard switching, can you use the native switching of a public cloud, like Azure or AWS, and you tell the other APIs, please let those packets go from A to B because they're part of the whitelisted paths,, and don't let packets from C to D go because they're part of the blacklisted paths. And that was the full integration with these clouds-- >> Can you abstract that complexity? >> Completely, completely. One orchestrator, which is the multi-site orchestrator, the same one people have used on premise, that they've developed their policies around, so that we have invested a lot of sweat equity in that controller, it's where also they put their compliance, verification, and audit and assurance, and they use that thing even when something goes to Azure or it goes to AWS. >> So you mentioned the progression. So it's now your full progression, from core to the cloud, including edge-- >> Going through edge. >> What has been some of the results? You mentioned that segmentation's one of 'em, I get that. How has ACI been used, what are some highlights that show the value, because people start looking at ACI, saying, hmm, I like this, I like scale, I have a scale challenge with the new cloud world and edge, and complexity's abstracted away with software, okay, check, so far, so good. Where has been the success of ACI and how do you see that unfolding specifically in the cloud? >> Yeah, the biggest value our customers have gotten, cloud or no cloud, has been with ACI, they've been able to shorten the speed of change, shorten the time for change, therefore increase the speed of change of their network, because now the network needs to operate at the speed of the applications. Applications reconfigure themselves sometimes on hourly or daily basis, and it used to be that changing something in the network, you sent a ticket to somebody who took weeks to reconfigure things. Now that software-defined capability means the network reconfigures and people can change generations of compute on the fly, and the network is in lockstep with that. The agility and speed has been great. The other value has been the value of automation, which is people can run a bigger and bigger and bigger network with a small number of people. You don't have to scale your people the more switches you have. Again, because programming and automation comes to the rescue with that. >> Well I'll tell you, people who are watching right now can look behind Roland and see that it's a packed house. We're in the dev net zone, which has been the massively growing organization within Cisco. Community's been growing very fast, people are developing on top of the networks, and these are network folks, and as well there's new talent coming in. So skill gap is shortening, so you're getting a different makeup for a Cisco user, your customers are changing and changing, growing, existing base plus new people. Talk about that dynamic about how that impacts this intent-based networking, this notion of policy software is defined. >> Yes, you it's you know what many people have been calling infrastructure as code, which is you go from scripting to actually coding and composing very sophisticated automation capabilities and change management capabilities, for an automatable system, which is what ACI is. It's made for people drawing on the strengths that they were doing in the application domain or in the server domain, and bringing that into the network. And that's a new and exciting thing, it brought the network within the purview of coders, people who know how to do Python and know how to do Go language and things which are modern and exciting for the younger generation. It's made also for bringing the analytical capabilities, you know, a lot of what those young coders are used to is a lot of logs, a lot of visibility, a lot of analytics running on, because they've done that on web servers, they've done that on applications that run in the cloud, and we now offer the network, which is very rich in data. If you think about, we see every packet, we see every flow, we see every pattern of how the traffic is changing, and that becomes a data set that is subject to programming because then from there you can extract anomaly detection, you can extract security signatures of malware, you can extract prediction of where the traffic is going to be going in six months. There's a lot of exciting potential from the telemetry and the visibility that we bring into that framework. >> And as you point out, devs love that. I mean Cisco, we've talked about this, is one of the few large established companies that has, in our view, figured out developers, right? There's a lot of examples of those companies that haven't and continue to struggle, we've just witnessed here the dev crowd. I want to ask you about ACI and how it's different from, for example, VMware NSX. What's the differentiation there? >> The biggest differentiation is ACI is one system through which you manage the entire network, the overlay which is the virtual view of the network that the applications care about, as well as the underlay, which is the actual real delivery system that makes the packets get from A to B with quality of service and so forth. So that's first thing. It actually does a lot more, it has much more scope than NSX does. The other thing that's very unique about ACI is we have integrated it with every hypervisor on the planet and every container management framework on the planet, and ever bare metal system on the planet, which means that any workload, something sitting on a mainframe, something sitting on a Sun Oracle server, something on OpenStack on OpenShift, on VMware or on Hyper-V, and now on the EC2 APIs of AWS or on Azure, all of those are integrated with ACI. We're not wedded to one hypervisor, and our cloud implementation that we announced yesterday is a true integrated cloud capability, it's not a bring your own license and go put it on bare metal at AWS, which has been VMware's cloud strategy is to team up with AWS and let customers bring their software licenses into AWS bare metal. That's not EC2. And of course that's not Azure and that's not the other clouds we're going to be doing. So the openness to being multi-cloud on premise, which means every hypervisor and every container framework, and bare metal, with one system. We're extending that into the cloud to give customers choice and openness, that's really a very fundamental philosophy in networks. >> So much wider scope. That's kind of always been Cisco's philosophy in partnership. When you think about HyperFlex going back 10 years when you guys sort of created that with partners and then multiple partners now, maybe talk about that journey a little bit. >> HyperFlex? >> Yes. >> Yeah, 'cause hyperconvergence is another very exciting and fast growing trend in our industry. And really, HyperFlex started off with the hyperconverged infrastructure, started of being the notion of putting a mini-cloud in a box on-premise for application developers to rapidly deploy their applications, as if it was in the cloud. So speed and simplicity were really at a premium, and that's really what defines hyperconvergence. And we've done a tremendous amount of work at Cisco to make speed and simplicity there, because we've integrated network compute storage and a cloud management system called Intersight to give that whole capability to customers. We then hardened it. We took it from being able to do VDI kind of workloads and rather benign workloads, to mission-critical workloads. So databases are now running on HyperFlex. ERP systems are running on HyperFlex, the real crown jewels of the enterprise are now running on HyperFlex. Then we made it multi-cloud. We opened it to all hypervisors and to all container frameworks. We announced OpenShift yesterday, we have already done Hyper-V, we had done OpenStack and DSX, so again, same spirit of openness. And yesterday's announcement was, what if I want to take hyperconvergence outside of the data center in hundreds or thousands of remote locations? Think a retailer. In a retail environment, some of the most interesting data is born outside the data center, it's born in a store. The data is center that follows the customer who's interested in a plasma TV, and that data has a perishable lifetime. You act on it on location and on time or you lose the value. So sending it over, taking two hours to do a machine learning job on it and come back, the customer's already back home watching a movie. And so the window of opportunity for the data is often right there and then, and that's why our customers are taking their computing environment off into where the data is, to act on it fast and on location. >> It sounds easy but I want to just get your thoughts on this, because this is a critical data challenge. If data's stored in classic old ways, data warehouses and fenced off area, it's kind of in the internet, you're not going to have the latency to get that data in real time. Talking about real time data that's addressable for part of the application value. So this is a new notion that's emerged with dev ops and infrastructure as code. >> That's right. >> That's hard. How do you guys see that progressing, how should customers prepare to have that data centered properly for app addressability, discovery, whatever the uses of the data contextually is, time series data or whatever data it is, this is a critical thing. >> It's a critical thing, and there's no one answer, because depending on what the data is, sometimes you only see the value when you concentrate it and consolidate it, because the patterns emerge from rolling out a thousand stores worth of data and seeing that people who buy this toothbrush tend to buy that toothpaste. There may be that value where you want to concentrate the data, but there are also many things where acting on the data in the moment and on location quickly without referring to the other thousand stores extracts 90% of the value of that data. So that's why you want to do forward deploy computing on that data. >> So this highlights network programmability, this means the applications driving the queries or the network for that data, if it's available... So there's two things, network programmability from the app, and availability of the data. >> Yeah, and the ability for the entire infrastructure, network, compute, and storage, and hyperconvergence is the automation of all three to be able to deliver its value equally in remote locations or in a cloud, as it would have in a data center, because that's where, the application's going to want to go where the value is, and if the infrastructure can't follow it there, then you get a degraded ability to take advantage of the opportunity. >> Right, real time decisions happen at the edge, but then as you describe, you got to bring data back, certain data, back to the cloud, do the modeling there and then push the models back down. So you're going to have-- >> And you're going to have decision making distributed. >> And you've got to have low latency to be able to enable that. >> Yeah, and the same goes for other considerations. For example, why is it important to do, allow people to put data both on their premises and in the cloud? For disaster recovery, for data replication, for resiliency. Sometimes for governance reasons. GTPR in Europe says the data of European citizens that's personally identifying has to stay in Europe. Somebody may not have a data center in Europe. Could they take advantage of a co-location ability or somebody else's cloud? >> This is the theme we're seeing at this show this year, and certainly at the center of the news is, complexity is increasing 'cause it's just evolution, more devices are connected, diverse environments, scale for cloud and connectivity, but software driving that. So I got to ask you the question. Go back to the old days, you know, the 1990s, multi-vendor was a big word. Now multi-cloud feels the same way. This is the openness thing. How would you describe multi-cloud strategy for Cisco in context of this notion of being open? >> It is really the new dimension of openness, right? We've been open in the past to multiple forms of physical networks. Customers to use wireless or fiber or copper or what have you, we need to give them an IP network that operate equally well over all media. That was one dimension of openness. Another dimension of openness was, does a product from vendor A work with a product from vendor B? My router, your router, my switch, your firewall, those are other dimensions. Hardware and software coupling. Can I buy the hardware from Peter and the software from Mary, will it work well? The new dimension of openness is, can a customer avail themselves of any form of cloud, either because they like the tooling and how well their developers are more efficient on a given cloud, or because the pricing of the other guy, or the third guy has a point of presence in Tokyo, which this one doesn't. All of those are business choices that if we make our technology, let them take advantage of them with no technical restriction, they will, because now they can shop on the merit of what they want to do, and not on, oh well, sorry, if you want to go to Azure, I can't help you, but if you're willing to settle for your own premise or for Amazon, then I have a story for you. So that's-- >> Roland, you're leading the team on the core crown jewels for Cisco, as you guys, the rising tide's floating all boats here within the company. What's your plan for the year, what's your goals, you'll be out there pounding the pavement with customers, what's your objective, what do you hope to accomplish this year in 2019? >> Well 2019 is the year of many things for us, it's a very exciting year. It's the year of, on the physical infrastructure side, we're taking our switches to 400 gigabit per second. We have our new silicon capability, our new optics, so we're going to be able to scale for the cloud providers who are heading the next frontier of speed and density and scale. So performance will always, always be there, and when we're done with 400, we're already going to be asking about 800. So that's an exciting new generation of switches. ACI Anywhere getting deployed now and adopted across multiple clouds, is another exciting thing. HyperFlex Anywhere, we're really looking forward to the potential in financial services, in logistics, in retail, where's there's a lot of deployed data at the edge. And then, security is a never finished journey, right? Everything with give our customers in the way of security, because there, there's an active actor who's trying to make you fail, right? It's not that you're only fighting physics to get to 400 gigabit, then you win. There we have a guy who's trying to foil your schemes and trying to foil their schemes. Security is a great-- >> Constant attacks are on the network. You guys have seen this movie before, so you know how critical, Roland thanks so much for spending the time, congratulations on ACI Anywhere, HyperFlex Anywhere, intent-based networking at the core. It's theCUBE bringing you all the data, we have an intent here to bring you the best content from Cisco Live in Barcelona. I'm John, Dave Vellante, stay with us for live coverage, day two of three days of coverage here in the dev net zone, packed with developers learning new skills. We'll back with more after this short break.

>> Live from Seattle, Washington it's theCUBE covering KubeCon and CloudNativeCon North America 2018 brought to you by Red Hat the Cloud Native Computing Foundation and it's Ecosystem Partners. >> Well, everyone welcome back to theCube's live coverage here in Seattle for KubeCon and CloudNativeCon 2018. I'm John Furrier with Stu Miniman. Three days of coverage around the Cloud Native growth, around the Ecosystem around open source, and the role of micro servers in the cloud. Our next guest is Roland Barcia who's the IBM Distinguished Engineer for IBM's Hybrid Cloud. Welcome to theCube. >> Thank you, glad to be here. >> Thanks for joining us. Being a Distinguished Engineer of IBM is a pretty big honor so congratulations. >> Thank you. >> it means you got technical chops so we can get down and dirty if we want to. >> Sure. >> I want to get your take on this because a lot of companies in IT are transforming and then that's been called digital transformation, it's happening and cloud has developed scale. And the wish list if you had the magic wand that could make things do better is actually happening. Supernetting's actually creating some goodness that if you had the magic wand, if I asked that question three years ago, if you had a magic wand what would an environment look like? Seamless operations around the cloud, so it's kind of happening. How are you guys positioned for this? Talk about the IBM cloud, what you're doing here, and how you see this cloud native market exploding. It's almost 8,000 people here up from 4,000 last year. >> Yeah, that's a great question I think. I work a lot with our enterprise clients. I'm part of what's called the IBM Cloud Garage, so I'm very customer facing. And often times, we're seeing that there is different paces of a journey. And so for example, I worked with a client that started building a cloud native application. They built about 60 micro services. And at the end of that, they were deploying it as one job which means they defeated the whole purpose of micro service architecture. And so what we really need to think about is an end to end journey. I think the developers are probably the more modern role in an enterprise, but we're starting to see modernization of an operations team for example, and adopting culture, and cutting down the walls of IT organizational groups into mixed squads, adopting something like a Spotify model. And I think a lot of the challenges in adopting kubernetes is really in cultural aspects and in enterprise. Does that make sense? >> Yeah. And because network guys are different than the app guys, and now they have policy knobs on kubernetes they can play with. Network guys love policy. >> Yeah, and they're fighting over ownership, right? >> Roland indeed. We look at that modernization, the application modernization really is that long home intent. And what we hear here is you need to be able to meet customers where they are. Sure, there's some stuff they're building shiny and new and have the developers, but enterprises have a lot of application and therefore there's a grand spectrum. What do you hear from customers? What's the easy part and where's the parts they're getting stuck? >> Yeah, so I think the easy part is writing the application. I think where they're getting stuck is really scaling it to the enterprise, doing the operations, doing the DevOps. I always tell people that a modernization journey might be better started by taking a certain class of applications like middleware where we have a WebSphere heritage from IBM, and saying why don't we take a look at containerizing that. We've built tools like Transformation Advisor that'll scan your WebSphere applications and tell you what do you need to change in that middleware application to make it behave well in a containerized platform. Then from there, you build your DevOps engine, your DevOps pipeline and you really start to get your operations teams going in delivering containers, delivering applications as containers. And then getting your policies and your standards in place. Then you can start opening up around innovation and start really driving towards building cloud native new applications in addition to that. >> One of those areas we've been talking about in the industry for decades is automation. The conversation's a little bit different these days. Maybe you can bring us up to speed about what's different than say it was earlier days. >> Yeah, I think IT organizations have always done a bit of automation. I think they write scripts, they automate builds. I think the mantra that I use is automate everything, right? Organizations need to really start to automate in a new way. How I deliver containers, but delivering the app is not enough. I need to automate all levels of testing in a modern way. Test driven development is big. At the IBM Cloud Garage, we have something we call the IBM Cloud Garage Method which really takes a set of practices like test driven development, pair programming, things out of lean startup, extreme programming, and really start to help enterprises adopt those practices. So I say why can't we automate end to end performance testing in the pipeline, and functional testing, and writing them early and in the beginning of projects? That way, as I'm deploying containers which are very dynamic, along with configuration, and along with policy you're testing it continuously. And I think that level of automation is what we need to get to. >> Talk about security as well 'cause security's one of those things where it's got to be baked in upfront. You got to think about it holistically. It's also now being pulled out of IT, it's more of a board function because the risk management is one hack you could get crushed. And so you got to have security. And the container there's a security boundary issue, so it's important. >> Last week we met with an insurance company. We did a workshop. And they walked us through all the compliant steps that they need to go through today. How they do it with traditional middleware and virtual machines and hardware and it was a very, what I'm going to say governance driven process. And so a lot of checks and balances, stop don't move forward, which is really the industry for developing and innovating is going the opposite way: self service and enabling. And there's a lot of risk with that. And so what we're really trying to do with technology is like Multicloud Manager, technology we have around multicluster, management is how do I do things like I want to check which clusters are Hipaa compliant and which ones are out. How do i force that policy? >> That's smart. >> Now that everything is software driven, software developed, there's an opportunity to really automate those checks. >> So your point automate everything. >> Yeah, I want to automate everything. >> Governance is a service. (laughing) >> Yeah, that's right. And actually, that can help get away from error prone human checks where they had all these tons of documents of all different policies they have to go through can now be automated in a seamless way. >> So compliance and governance could be a stumbling block or it can be just part of the software. That's what you're getting at here. >> That's right, that's what I'm getting at. I think the transition is look at it as an opportunity now that everything is software driven, use software disciplines that developers are used to in those security roles and those CSO roles, etc. >> So I want to ask you a question. So one of the things we're seeing obviously with the cloud is it's great for certain things, and then on premises it has latency issues. We saw Amazon essentially endorse this by saying RDS on VMware on premises. They announced Outpost had reinvent oh, latency. Things aren't moving into the cloud as fast. So you're going to see this hybrid environment. So hybrids, we get that, it's been around, check. No real discussion other than it's happening. The real trend is multicloud, right? >> That' right. >> And so multicloud is just a modern version of the word multi vendor about the client server days. So systems were a multi vendor man choice. This is a fundamental thing. It's not so much about multicloud as it is about choice. How do you guys see that? You are in an environment where you have a lot of customers who don't have one cloud, so this is a big upcoming trend in 2019. >> Most of our clients have at least five different clouds that they deal with, whether it be an IaaS, a PaaS, a SaaS base solution. What we're seeing as a trend is we talked about on premise and private and enterprise is I think is 80% of workloads are still in the data center. And so they want to build that private cloud environment as a transitionary point to public, but what we're seeing across the multicloud space is I'm going to say a new integration space. So if you really think 15 years ago, SOA and enterprise service bosses in a very centralized fashion, I think there's a new opportunity for integration across clouds and on-prem in a more decentralized way. So I think integration is kind of the next trend that we're seeing in this multicloud space because the new applications that we're seeing with cognitive data AI are mixing data sources from multiple clouds and on-prem and needing to control that in a hybrid control plane is key. >> It's funny, the industry always talks about these buzzwords, multicloud. If we're talkin' about multicloud, then it's a problem. The idea of infrastructure as code it's not even use the word multicloud. I mean, if you think about it, if you're programming the infrastructure and enabling the stuff under the covers, why even talk about cloud? It should be automated, so that's the future state, but in reality, that's kind of what enterprisers are tryin' to think about. >> They are, and I think it's a tension between innovation and moving fast and control, right? The enterprisers want to move fast, but they want to make sure that they don't break security protocol, that they don't break resiliency that they're maybe have used to with their existing customers and applications. I do think the challenge is how operations teams and management teams start to act like developers to get to that point. And I think that's part of the journey. >> Open source obviously a big part of this show, and that's open source, people contribute upstream It's great stuff. IBM is a big contributor, and it'll be even more when Red Hat gets into the mix. So upstream's great, but as you got 8,000 people here, you're startin' to see people talkin' about business issues, and other things. One of the downstream impacts of this conference being so open source centric is the IT equation and then just the classic developer. So you have multiple personas now kind of interacting. You got the developer, you got the IT architect, cloud architect pro whatever, and then you got the open source community members. Melting pot: good, challenges, thoughts? >> So I think it's so developers love that, right? I think from an enterprise perspective, there are issues. We're seeing a lot of our clients with our private cloud platform ask us to build out what's called air gapped environment which is how do I build up an open source style ecosystem within my enterprise. So things like getting an artifactory registry or a Docker registry or whatever type of registry where I get certified, open source packages in my enterprise that I've gone and done security vulnerability scans with, or that I've made sure that I look at every layer from the Linux kernel all the way up to whatever software is included. So what we're seeing is how do I open the aperture a bit, but do it in a more responsible fashion I think is the key. >> Yeah, and that's for stability, right? So Stu, one of things I've been talkin' about and want to get your thoughts on this role is that you got the cloud as a scalable system then one of the things that's being discussed in Silicon Valley now for the first time, we've been sitting on theCube for years, is the cloud's a system. It's just some architecture, it's network distributing, computing, art paradigm, all that computer science has been around for awhile, right? >> Yes, yes. >> So if you've been a systems person whether hardware or whatever, operating systems, you get cloud. But also you got the horizontal specialism of applications that are using machine learning and data and applications which is unique on top. So you have the collision of those two worlds. This is kind of a modern version of two worlds that we used to call systems and apps, but they're happening in a real dynamic way. What's your thoughts on this? Because you got the benefits of horizontally scalable cloud and you now have the ability to power that so we're seeing things like AI, which has been around for a long, long time, have a renaissance because now you got a lot of compute. >> That's right, and I think data is the real big challenge we're seeing with a lot of our clients. They have a lot of it in their enterprise, they don't want to unlock it all right away. We recently did what's called IBM Cloud Private for Data, in which we brought in a set of technologies around our AI, our Watson core to really start leveraging some of those tools in a private manner. And then what we're seeing is a lot of applications that are moving to the cloud have a data drag. It might start as something as simple as caching data and no SQL databases, but very quickly they want to learn a lot more about that data. So we're seeing that mix happening all the time. >> We've had it, we've had someone say in theCube ML's the new SQL. >> Yeah. >> Because you're starting to see SQL abstraction layers are a beautiful thing if they're connected. So I want to get your thoughts on this because everyone's kind of in discovery mode right now. Learning, there's a lot of education. I mean, we're talkin' about real, big time players. Architects are becoming cloud architects. Sysadmins are becoming operators for large infrastructure scale. You see network guys goin' wait a minute, if I don't get on the new network programmable model I'm going to be irrelevant. So a lot of persona changes in the enterprise. How are you guys handling that with customers? I know you guys have the expert program. Comment on that dynamic. >> I think what we're doing is we use the IBM Cloud Garage to bring in practices like the Spotify method where we start pushing things like >> What's the Spotify method? >> Spotify method is a way of doing kind of development where rather than having your disciplines of architects, development, operations, we're now splitting teams, let's say functionally, where I have mixed disciplines in a squad and maybe saying hey, the person building the account team has an SRE, an ops guy, a dev guy all within their same squad. And then maybe have guilds across disciplines, right? And so what we do at the Garage is we bring 'em in to one of the Garages. We have four team locations worldwide. Maybe do your first project. Then we build enablement and education around that, bring it back to the enterprise and start making that viral. And that's what we're doing in the IBM Cloud Garage. >> So not a monolithic thing, breakin' it down, integrating multiple disciplines, kind of like a playlist. >> Yeah, that's right. And I think the best way to do it is to practice it, right, in action. Let's pick a project rather than talking about it. >> If I had to ask you in 2019, what is the IT investment going to look like with kubernetes impact? How does kubernetes change the IT priorities and investments for an enterprise? >> Yeah, so I think you'll see kubernetes become a vehicle for enterprises to deliver content. So one, the whole area around helm and other package managers as a way to bundle software. I think as people build more clusters, multicluster management is going to be the big trend of how do I deal now with clusters that I have in public cloud and private cloud, all different clouds? And I think that integration layer that I talked about where what does modern integration look like across kubernetes based applications. >> Someone asked me last week at Reinvent hey, can't we just automate kubernetes? And then I was like, well it's kind of automated now. What's your thoughts on that? >> So I think when someone asks a question what does it mean to automate that I think the kubernetes stack really sits on top of IaaS infrastructure. And so for example, our IBM Cloud Private you can run it on zLinux or Power. And we have a lot of IBM folks that run multi architecture clusters. And therefore, they still need a level of automating how I create clusters over IaaS and there's technologies like Terraform and others that help with that, but then there's also automating standing up the DevOps stack, automating deployment of the applications over that stack. And I think they mean automating how I use kubernetes in an environment. >> So 2019, the year of programmability and automation creating goodness around kubernetes. >> Yeah, absolutely, >> Roland, thanks for comin' >> Thank you, it was great. >> on theCube, thanks for that smart insight. TheCube coverage here, day two winding down. We got day three tomorrow. This is theCube covering KubeCon and CloudNativeCon 2018. We'll be right back with more day two coverage after this short break. (happy electronic music)

>> From Orlando, Florida, it's theCUBE, covering SAP Sapphire Now 2018, brought to you by NetApp. >> Welcome to theCUBE, I'm Lisa Martin with Keith Townsend, and we are in Orlando at SAP Sapphire Now 2018. We're very proud to be in the NetApp booth. NetApp has a very long standing partnership with SAP and we're joined by Roland Wartenburg, the Senior Director of Global Strategic Alliances at NetApp. Roland, welcome to theCUBE. >> Thanks for having me. >> So NetApp and SAP have been partners for 17 years, very strategic. Let's talk about the role of NetApp in the SAP ecosystem. >> Yeah, happy to do that. So as I said it goes back to I think 2001 when the official partner contract was signed. Actually my role is, I would say it was special because I used to work for SAP, and the first time I worked with NetApp was in 1999. It was actually back then when the whole thing started, it's more than 21 years now, oh time is flying. And NetApp was always and is still a global technology partner. So when you look back at that time over the last 15 years was really about running SAP solutions on top of our technologies, started with F3, went over to SAP Enterprise Suite with Netweaver but now these days when you look at the whole SAP portfolio, there are so many new things. Not only SAP Hana, there is the whole SAP cloud movement with the cloud software service solutions with Hypres, Eribar, Conqueror, you name it, Feedclass, there's so many solutions out there which run now, either operated by SAP or done by SAP with one of their partners in the public cloud space like Google, Microsoft, AWS, for example. In addition you have the new areas with Leonardo covering IOT, Blockchain, machine learning, artificial intelligence and the nice thing is your assio from NetApp is really moving forward from the traditional role as a pure storage provider into so many new ways covering this with entry and data management so that we can offer our joint customers the solutions to cover actually, oh let's say offer solutions to solve the customer's problems in these areas. And IOT, for example, is a really interesting power because you have so many devices in the IOT space, everyone is talking about Etch computing or far computing and when you see how important it is to have data really transferred in a secure way, for example, in healthcare, no question about it, then it's clearly visible that a partner like NetApp offering service in this area for entry and data management, there's no better partner than us to do this with SAP. >> So can we talk about some of the larger ecosystems, NetApp, big partner with SAP, NetApp, big partner with Microsoft. You guys have your NFS service running in Microsoft. Can you talk about how NetApp has moved into a data driven company now. You're in all the major clouds. How important is that to the SAP relationship? >> Oh that's actually my daily business to, to not only cover the so called multi-partner strategies, but also to drive forward because when you look at the SAP, NetApp strategy in general what we do in the Cloud, what we do with Hybrid Cloud scenarios for example, driven by topics like GDPR. That went just live a couple of days ago. Data privacy protection really really important so then you look now at SAP customers where still the big majority runs systems on premises, no question about it, you saw the numbers Bill McDermott showed in the keynote, how many Es Vahana customs they have now. You see that there's a movement from on premises to the Cloud, but not completely. I would say it's also a Hybrid Cloud scenario, specifically what I just said, the whole GDPR topic for example, that customers really want to make sure they're still, have their own data under control either in the Cloud or on premises and this makes not only the challenge for us as a partner but it's also the very interesting part too as a partner to work now with more and more partners which were, before when you looked back at the last five, 10, 15 years, were not part of the SAP ecosystem at all. And that is really, for me in alignment with my daily business to extend this ecosystem in a way that we can offer customers in, almost like a metric you know we have all these partners and you say okay for this specific use case we work together with partner A, in SAP, here with partner B and whatever your name put in there, Microsoft, Skuli, etc. And then have this portfolio offered to the customer in a very comprehensive way. >> SAP has such a wide range of customers from Coca Cola to McLaren Formula One to NetApp as a customer and and Bill McDermott said during his keynote 390 thousand customers in 25 plus industries. They have this lofty goal of becoming one of the top ten most valuable brands globally with an Apple, a Google. They are now 17 on that list and one of the things that struck me yesterday outside of the convention center was seeing a bus that said ERP that you can talk to and hear from. And as they have this ambition to be up there with the Apples that have products and technologies that we interact with and, you know, now they're wanting ERP to become something that you can talk to, how does that help, kind of, lift NetApp? Does it open doors for you guys in new industries where SAP has this almost household brand name? What's the influence there on NetApp? >> Oh definitely, I would say when you look at the role of SAP in this industry it's growing growing. From a branding point of view, from how important you are, not only for Enterprise customers, also for normal end users like you and me and the interesting part is that SAP being the backbone of all these Enterprise business processes sometimes they're not so very known for the normal end users though, if I would ask my daughter hey, you know, of course she knows SAP, no question about it, but do you know any application SAP offers? She probably said no, not really. If I ask her do you know any applications Apple is offering, Microsoft, she would say yes of course so because these big partners with their solutions are actually more at the end user of the consumer user so but when you look now at what SAP is doing you just have to look at a show floor and which areas are SAP getting active in multimedia analytics, etc. You see a lot more branding of rareness all over the place. And as Bill McDermott said that that they really want to increase that and that's the great opportunity for us because when you linked us now from the solution business process level to an area where we are actually the leader in the space of data management. Data is everywhere, everyone knows that and data is created at such enormous speeds that you have to have customers, and end users have to have solutions in place either on a, in an Enterprise environment maybe on the desktop on the tablet or the normal end user on a mobile device to have the opportunity to manage this data. When I look, take my daughter as an example again. Of course she is on Instagram etc., all these things. And whenever you make a picture that's data created >> Right >> And stored somewhere, and it has to be handled. And of course you can talk about security, the different protocols, I think there is a really big need for a partner like NetApp to work together with the key to offer these entry and data management solutions. No question about it. >> So I'd like to hear your thoughts on as we look at all these challenges, whether it's data privacy, smart contracts, the ability to enable supply chain tracking, you know, the formulation of a medicine from the formulation to the manufacturing to getting it on the shelf to being injected, one of the big parts of that conversation is to become Blockchain. SAP announced that their part of a Blockchain initiative How do you view technology like Blockchain in the relationship of NetApp, which is a a data driven company with data storage products, data management products, security concerns and enabling these types of technologies or capabilities through something like Blockchain in your relationship with SAP. >> Blockchain is a really interesting topic for me because when you look at the history of Blockchain go back 20 years ago, it was actually developed for data management in a way, then someone figured out oh this can be used for financial services and the Bitcoin thingy started, and well everyone when you talk about to people what is Blockchain, everyone will think this is financial services, for banking, etc. But now SAP actually invited us last, um October, November last year to join the SAP, Blockchain co-innovation program because, you mentioned that when you use Blockchain now in supply chain management, specifically for smart contracts in manufacturing, automotive, shipment, wherever you have different partners working together in such a chain, and that's the word already, you have different blocks you put together because imagine we three would create a Blockchain, it probably wouldn't be that secure because three pieces can attract right flat away. But in a moment if you have a really more complex, longer chain of ecosystem partners working together like, for example, render producing some products having supplies, shipping that, up to the end user and you want to put this in a smart contract environment so that you as an end user could say oh today I want to have this part of the product enabled. Tomorrow I want to have this part, but not this one anymore. And so it goes back to the original vendor to enable a disfuntion almost like with cell phone technology. You can imagine that the data flow in such Blockchain environment is really really essential because you as a end user, you're gonna have to secure because at the end of the day you pay for it and you want to pay only for that featured function you ordered, so data management and Blockchain goes hand in hand here. So that's why we actually decided okay we want to work here together with SAP. It's a fairly new topic for many many customers so I see this coming for next years more and more and more the customers really see where this can help them to advance from a business point of view but yeah, we are part of that ecosystem. >> So as customers keep their eye on futuristic technologies such as Blockchain, they need these types of capabilities today. Like they still need to be able to do great supply train management. They still need to do data management. What are some of the highlights from a customer's perspective, between the relationship between NetApp technology, and SAP capability as it pertains to digital transformation? We had the NetApp CIO on theCUBE yesterday where he talked about the ability to have empower George, the CEO of NetApp with data driven decisions through that relationship. Are there relationships that you're seeing specifically between the alliances you work with that your like, you know what, no other company could do this other than NetApp and SAP? >> Of course, as I've said we have really the perfect partner for this new world because when you look at the history of NetApp there's a lot going on in terms of digital transformation. We're working much more now with the Cloud service providers We have a Cloud strategy. So we have this and now comes the word, the end to end data management strategy and that's really important for SAP and customers because the customers, they, when you look at SAP customers who've been with SAP for many many many years, they went through this history of free, Enterprise free, now to the Cloud, they still have to manage all the system and you have to make sure that the data is consistent wherever it sits has to call secured, it has to be manageable, it has to be archived, so all this functionality of this features with data you have to have in place and for us is then to report to offer the state of measurement really from the back end on premise over Hybrid Cloud scenarios to the Cloud up to the device the HTY's up to your mobile devices so that we have this whole, and it comes to it again, the chain enabled and that's, I think that is really our competitive advantage here in this partnership with NetApp of SAP for NetApp to offer really this complete entry and data management. >> I think the NetApp marketing team likes to call that the data fabric, the ability to create, whether it's ONTAP or Hybrid Cloud solutions, cloud value, etc., having that underlying technology. >> Exactly, and that's my responsibility the alliance media to look at the complete NetApp portfolio, every product and to make a decision together with other partners with product management, with marketing where it fits in the SAP product portfolio because I don't know if you've ever had the chance to look at the complete SAP portfolio. It's quite large. >> Extensive. >> Yesterday's numbers they have 330 solution, 2300 class of product, and of course in alliance media we can't do all the things, that would be crazy. So as an alliance media we usually have to make clear decisions where are the best opportunities to create business with SAP? What are your customers asking for? So looking at our complete product portfolio with ONTAP, ONTAP Select, the AllFlash technology, ACI, the whole Cloud services, Cloud volume, to make decision where this fits in this SAP world. And that's actually the nice thing that, over the time as I explained it, SAP portfolio increased so much from a portfolio functionality point of view that there is almost everywhere a place where the NetApp product will fit. But again, we have to make a decision where is the place to start because you don't want to boil the ocean but that's what we're working on at SAP to play this overall portfolio for the data frapping and entry and data management. >> One of the things Hasso Plattner talked about in his keynote this morning is that they were hearing, you've mentioned that the sheer volume of products that SAP alone had. You can imagine customers going, where do I start? And he was talking about, you know, hearing from customers who are sort of confused, if you look at the SAP Cloud platform all the different integrations, they talked about, kind of, working to sort of simplify, even naming conventions so the customers can understand better. How does that help NetApp be able to, as you said, kind of make the right decisions on you can do so many different things with SAP? Where do you focus the business and also make sure the customer really can clearly understand the different choices that they have from NetApp to work in SAP environments? >> Oh great question, because a short story, when I look back, as I've told you I was working long time for SAP and when you're an employee of a company you always look at your portfolio, your... And the moment when you leave, and I did this in 2010. I was then six years with Citrix. The first, I remember the first Monday when I was, I was sitting at the Citrix desk, the first time ever I looked at the complete SAP portfolio and I said wow, okay this would be a lot of work. And Hasso was totally right because there's so many solutions for different industries and then they have also different solutions for N Class Enterprises for the SAP, down to, for example with SAP Business One, down to the small chaperone to call on, maybe with 10 employees, and when you look at this whole solution package you wonder, okay, how we fit in there? And this whole run simple, make it simpler this really helps us a lot because at the end of the day we have to make sure that we can tell the customer where the NetApp product fits to the over as a people solution. If that piece appears already difficult to understand it won't be easy if we fit to that more or less in a meshful environment so the easier the SAP colleagues from SAP marketing and product management, the easier they make it for their customers to understand how this whole solution would flow to work, the easier for us to explain how our products fit in the same picture, no questions about it. >> So we are at a massive location. The size of this convention center is 16 American football fields. Huge, tons of partners, tons of customers. As this conference comes to a close in the next day, what are some of the things that you are most energized about, that you've heard from SAP with some of the big announcements in terms of, you know the NetApp, SAP relationship continuing? What are some of the things that you just went, yeah? >> I would say, I come now to Sapphire since 2003. Time is flying. But this one is, as we especially, just enormous as you mentioned, enormous space of the show floor and the number of customers be here. The number of partners, if you come to Sapphire for a long time you go to show floor and see right away ah that's a large one, we have more partners. This year it's unbelievable. It's really large, and the nice thing for us here to be part of this ecosystem is that SAP bring all these customers to Sapphire and inviting us to be part of this ecosystem will enable us also to win more customers, no question about it, this is what we really want to do together with SAP here, go into new business areas, winning new customers for new environment, especially in new world of the whole IOT space, Hybrid Cloud scenarios, when in the past when you look at new ways like automotive, IOT space essuvitive, when you look at what we did in the past and then I was not as active in areas as SAP I so that's a great opportunity for us and when you look at whatever SAP announced here at Sapphire it really, everything fits in this strategy so really excited to be here with you too. >> Well Roland we thank you so much for being part of enabling theCUBE to be in the NetApp booth here at Sapphire and we thank you for stopping by and sharing some of the things that you're working on. >> Thank you. >> We want to thank you for watching theCUBE. Lisa Martin with Keith Townsend from SAP Sapphire Now 2018. Thanks for watching.

>> Announcer: Live from Vancouver, Canada it's theCUBE, covering OpenStack Summit North America 2018. Brought to you by Red Hat, the OpenStack foundation, and its Ecosystem partners. >> Welcome back, I'm Stu Miniman and my cohost John Troyer and you're watching theCUBE's coverage of OpenStack Summit 2018 here in Vancouver. Happy to welcome first-time guest Roland Cabana who is a DevOps Manager at Vault Systems out of Australia, but you come from a little bit more local. Thanks for joining us Roland. >> Thank you, thanks for having me. Yes, I'm actually born and raised in Vancouver, I moved to Australia a couple years ago. I realized the potential in Australian cloud providers, and I've been there ever since. >> Alright, so one of the big things we talk about here at OpenStack of course is, you know, do people really build clouds with this stuff, where does it fit, how is it doing, so a nice lead-in to what does Vault Systems do for the people who aren't aware. >> Definitely, so yes, we do build cloud, a cloud, or many clouds, actually. And Vault Systems provides cloud services infrastructure service to Australian Government. We do that because we are a certified cloud. We are certified to handle unclassified DLM data, and protected data. And what that means is the sensitive information that is gathered for the Australian citizens, and anything to do with big user-space data is actually secured with certain controls set up by the Australian Government. The Australian Government body around this is called ASD, the Australian Signals Directorate, and they release a document called the ISM. And this document actually outlines 1,088 plus controls that dictate how a cloud should operate, how data should be handled inside of Australia. >> Just to step back for a second, I took a quick look at your website, it's not like you're listed as the government OpenStack cloud there. (Roland laughs) Could you give us, where does OpenStack fit into the overall discussion of the identity of the company, what your ultimate end-users think about how they're doing, help us kind of understand where this fits. >> Yeah, for sure, and I mean the journey started long ago when we, actually our CEO, Rupert Taylor-Price, set out to handle a lot of government information, and tried to find this cloud provider that could handle it in the prescribed way that the Australian Signals Directorate needed to handle. So, he went to different vendors, different cloud platforms, and found out that you couldn't actually meet all the controls in this document using a proprietary cloud or using a proprietary platform to plot out your bare-metal hardware. So, eventually he found OpenStack and saw that there was a great opportunity to massage the code and change it, so that it would comply 100% to the Australian Signals Directorate. >> Alright, so the keynote this morning were talking about people that build, people that operate, you've got DevOps in your title, tell us a little about your role in working with OpenStack, specifically, in broader scope of your-- >> For sure, for sure, so in Vault Systems I'm the DevOps Manager, and so what I do, we run through a lot of tests in terms of our infrastructure. So, complying to those controls I had mentioned earlier, going through the rigmarole of making sure that all the different services that are provided on our platform comply to those specific standards, the specific use cases. So, as a DevOps Manger, I handle a lot of the pipelining in terms of where the code goes. I handle a lot of the logistics and operations. And so it actually extends beyond just operation and development, it actually extends into our policies. And so marrying all that stuff together is pretty much my role day-to-day. I have a leg in the infrastructure team with the engineering and I also have a leg in with sort of the solutions architects and how they get feedback from different customers in terms of what we need and how would we architect that so it's safe and secure for government. >> Roland, so since one of your parts of your remit is compliance, would you say that you're DevSecOps? Do you like that one or not? >> Well I guess there's a few more buzzwords, and there's a few more roles I can throw in there but yeah, I guess yes. DevSecOps there's a strong security posture that Vault holds, and we hold it to a higher standard than a lot of the other incumbents or a lot of platform providers, because we are actually very sensitive about how we handle this information for government. So, security's a big portion of it, and I think the company culture internally is actually centered around how we handle the security. A good example of this is, you know, internally we actually have controls about printing, you know, most modern companies today, they print pages, and you know it's an eco thing. It's an eco thing for us too, but at the same time there are controls around printed documents, and how sensitive those things are. And so, our position in the company is if that control exists because Australian Government decides that that's a sensitive matter, let's adopt that in our entire internal ecosystem. >> There was a lot of talk this morning at the keynote both about upgrades, and I'm blanking on the name of the new feature, but also about Zuul and about upgrading OpenStack. You guys are a full Upstream, OpenStack expert cloud provider. How do you deal with upgrades, and what do you think the state of the OpenStack community is in terms of kind of upgrades, and maintenance, and day two kind of stuff? >> Well I'll tell you the truth, the upgrade path for OpenStack is actually quite difficult. I mean, there's a lot of moving parts, a lot of components that you have to be very specific in terms of how you upgrade to the next level. If you're not keeping in step of the next releases, you may fall behind and you can't upgrade, you know, Keystone from a Liberty all the way up to Alcatel, right? You're basically stuck there. And so what we do is we try to figure out what the government needs, what are the features that are required. And, you know, it's also a conversation piece with government, because we don't have certain features in this particular release of OpenStack, it doesn't mean we're not going to support it. We're not going to move to the next version just because it's available, right? There's a lot of security involved in fusing our controls inside our distribution of OpenStack. I guess you can call it a distribution, on our build of OpenStack. But it's all based on a conversation that we start with the government. So, you know, if they need VGPUs for some reason, right, with the Queens release that's coming out, that's a conversation we're starting. And we will build into that functionality as we need it. >> So, does that mean that you have different entities with different versions, and if so, how do you manage all of that? >> Well, okay, so yes that's true. We do have different versions where we have a Liberty release, and we have an Alcatel release, which is predominant in our infrastructure. And that's only because we started with the inception of the Liberty release before our certification process. A lot of the things that we work with government for is how do they progress through this cloud maturity model. And, you know, the forklift and shift is actually a problem when you're talking about releases. But when you're talking about containerization, you're talking about Agile Methodologies and things like that, it's less of a reliance on the version because you now have the ability to respawn that same application, migrate the data, and have everything live as you progress through different cloud platforms. And so, as OpenStack matures, this whole idea of the fast forward idea of getting to the next release, because now they have an integration step, or they have a path to the next version even though you're two or three versions behind, because let's face it, most operators will not go to the latest and greatest, because there's a lot of issues you're going to face there. I mean, not that the software is bad, it's just that early adopters will come with early adopter problems. And, you know, you need that userbase. You need those forum conversations to be able to be safe and secure about, you know, whether or not you can handle those kinds of things. And there's no need for our particular users' user space to have those latest and greatest things unless there is an actual request. >> Roland, you are an IAS provider. How are you handling containers, or requests for containers from your customers? >> Yes, containers is a big topic. There's a lot of maturity happening right now with government, in terms of what a container is, for example, what is orchestration with containers, how does my Legacy application forklift and shift to a container? And so, we're handling it in stages, right, because we're working with government in their maturity. We don't do container services on the platform, but what we do is we open-source a lot of code that allows people to deploy, let's say a terraform file, that creates a Docker Host, you know, and we give them examples. A good segue into what we've just launched last week was our Vault Academy, which we are now training 3,000 government public servants on new cloud technologies. We're not talking about how does an OS work, we're talking about infrastructures, code, we're talking about Kubernetes. We're talking about all these cool, fun things, all the way up to function as a service, right? And those kinds of capabilities is what's going to propel government in Australia moving forward in the future. >> You hit on one of my hot buttons here. So functions as a service, do you have serverless deployed in your environment, or is it an education at this point? >> It's an education at this point. Right now we have customers who would like to have that available as a native service in our cloud, but what we do is we concentrate on the controls and the infrastructure as a service platform first and foremost, just to make sure that it's secure and compliant. Everyone has the ability to deploy functions as a service on their platform, or on their accounts, or on their tenancies, and have that available to them through a different set of APIs. >> Great. There's a whole bunch of open-source versions out there. Is that what they're doing? Do you any preference toward the OpenWhisk, or FN, or you know, Fission, all the different versions that are out there? >> I guess, you know, you can sort of like, you know, pick your racehorse in that regard. Because it's still early days, and I think open to us is pretty much what I've been looking at recently, and it's just a discovery stage at this point. There are more mature customers who are coming in, some partners who are championing different technologies, so the great is that we can make sure our platform is secure and they can build on top of it. >> So you brought up security again, one of the areas I wanted to poke at a little bit is your network. So, it being an IS provider, networking's critical, what are you doing from a networking standpoint is micro-segmentation part of your environment? >> Definitely. So natively to build in our cloud, the functions that we build in our cloud are all around security, obviously. Micro-segmentation's a big part of that, training people in terms of how micro-segmentation works from a forklift and shift perspective. And the network connectivity we have with the government is also a part of this whole model, right? And so, we use technologies like Mellanox, 400G fabric. We're BGP internally, so we're routing through the host, or routing to the host, and we have this... Well so in Australia there's this, there's service from the Department of Finance, they create this idea of an icon network. And what it is, is an actually direct media fiber from the department directly to us. And that means, directly to the edge of our cloud and pipes right through into their tenancy. So essentially what happens is, this is true, true hybrid cloud. I'm not talking about going through gateways and stuff, I'm talking about I speed up an instance in the Vault cloud, and I can ping it from my desktop in my agency. Low latency, submillisecond direct fiber link, up to 100g. >> Do you have certain programmability you're doing in your network? I know lots of service providers, they want to play and get in there, they're using, you know, new operating models. >> Yes, I mean, we're using the... I draw a blank. There's a lot of technologies we're using for network, and the Cumulus Networking OS is what we're using. That allows us to bring it in to our automation team, and actually use more of a DevOps tool to sort of create the deployment from a code perspective instead of having a lot of engineers hardcoding things right on the actual production systems. Which allows us to gate a lot of the changes, which is part of the security posture as well. So, we were doing a lot of network offloading on the ConnectX-5 cards in the data center, we're using cumulus networks for bridging, we're working with Neutron to make sure that we have Neutron routers and making sure that that's secure and it's code reviewed. And, you know, there's a lot of moving parts there as well, and I think from a security standpoint and from a network functionality standpoint, we've come to a happy place in terms of providing the fastest network possible, and also the most secure and safe network as possible. >> Roland, you're working directly with the Upstream OpenStack projects, and it sounds like some others as well. You're not working with a vendor who's packaging it for you or supporting it. So that's a lot of responsibility on you and your team, I'm kind of curious how you work with the OpenStack community, and how you've seen the OpenStack community develop over the years. >> Yeah, so I mean we have a lot of talented people in our company who actually OpenStack as a passion, right? This is what they do, this is what they love. They've come from different companies who worked in OpenStack and have contributed a lot actually, to the community. And actually that segues into how we operate inside culturally in our company. Because if we do work with Upstream code, and it doesn't have anything to do with the security compliance of the Australian Signals Directorate in general, we'd like to Upstream that as much as possible and contribute back the code where it seems fit. Obviously, there's vendor mixes and things we have internally, and that's with the Mellanox and Cumulus stuff, but anything else beyond that is usually contributed up. Our team's actually very supportive of each other, we have network specialists, we have storage specialists. And it's a culture of learning, so there's a lot of synchronizations, a lot of synergies inside the company. And I think that's part to do with the people who make up Vault Systems, and that whole camaraderie is actually propagated through our technology as well. >> One of the big themes of the show this year has been broadening out of what's happening. We talked a little bit about containers already, Edge Computing is a big topic here. Either Edge, or some other areas, what are you looking for next from this ecosystem, or new areas that Vault is looking at poking at? >> Well, I mean, a lot of the exciting things for me personally, I guess, I can't talk to Vault in general, but, 'cause there's a lot of engineers who have their own opinions of what they like to see, but with the Queens release with the VGPUs, something I'd like, that all's great, a long-term release cycle with the OpenStack foundation would be great, or the OpenStack platform would be great. And that's just to keep in step with the next releases to make sure that we have the continuity, even though we're missing one release, there's a jump point. >> Can you actually put a point on that, what that means for you. We talked to Mark Collier a little bit about it this morning but what you're looking and why that's important. >> Well, it comes down to user acceptance, right? So, I mean, let's say you have a new feature or a new project that's integrated through OpenStack. And, you know, some people find out that there's these new functions that are available. There's a lot of testing behind-the-scenes that has to happen before that can be vetted and exposed as part of our infrastructure as a service platform. And so, by the time that you get to the point where you have all the checks and balances, and marrying that next to the Australian controls that we have it's one year, two years, or you know, however it might be. And you know by that time we're at the night of the release and so, you know, you do all that work, you want to make sure that you're not doing that work and refactoring it for the next release when you're ready to go live. And so, having that long-term release is actually what I'm really keen about. Having that point of, that jump point to the latest and greatest. >> Well Roland, I think that's a great point. You know, it used to be we were on the 18 month cycle, OpenStack was more like a six month cycle, so I absolutely understand why this is important that I don't want to be tied to a release when I want to get a new function. >> John: That's right. >> Roland Cabana, thank you the insight into Vault Systems and congrats on all the progress you have made. So for John Troyer, I'm Stu Miniman. Back here with lots more coverage from the OpenStack Summit 2018 in Vancouver, thanks for watching theCUBE. (upbeat music)

>> Announcer: Live from Madrid, Spain, it's theCUBE, covering HP Discover Madrid 2017. Brought to you by Hewlett-Packard Enterprise. >> We're back in Madrid, everybody. This is theCUBE, the leader in live tech coverage. My name is Dave Vellante and I'm here with my colleague, Peter Burris, co-host for the week, covering HPE Discover Madrid 2017. McLeod Glass is here. He's the vice president of product management for software defined in the cloud group at Hewlett-Packard Enterprise, and he's joined by Ronald Veirweij, who is the managing partner with The Sourcing Company. >> Ronald: Yeah. >> Dave: Good to see you. >> Thank you. >> Dave: Thanks so much for coming on theCUBE. >> Thanks, thanks for-- >> So I'm excited about this. We've been hearing about Azure Stack for awhile now, and we've been talking about bringing the cloud model to your business for awhile now and it looks like it's here. >> Yeah, no, absolutely. We're excited. I mean, you know, I think we've worked hard with Microsoft to pull together what we believe is a very compelling solution with Azure Stack. I think this gentleman here can attest to the value behind it, but we basically pulled together a lot of capability and flexibility in the overall solution that allows our customers to be able to pull together a solution that lets you take Azure-centric type services and run them on premise for maybe conditions where you have data sovereignty issues or you maybe have edge applications where you can't actually have the connectivity you need to the Azure cloud and be able to start building on those capabilities. >> Well, Ronald, I wonder if you could come in. It's interesting to juxtapose, take the AWS strategy, which is hey, got the cloud here, bring it all over. Microsoft obviously has an on-prem estate already, recognizes the customer need for that, and says, alright, we can bring substantially that cloud model on-prem. Why does that appeal to you, and does it work? >> Well, actually, we do think that for the first time now it's possible to get control of cloud. To us, it's the connection between the devices and the Azure cloud, and Azure Stack, to us, is between in. As a company, we do have control of Azure Stack, but we can also give control to our clients for Azure Stack. So a user can decide to put things in the cloud, and the company can decide whether they go in the cloud, or whether they stay into Azure Stack. So they have control of their data, and they can keep control of their data. On top of that, it's our hardware. So the data they decide to store on Azure Stack is on our hardware, and it's not a US hardware company, it's a Dutch hardware company. >> So, should I ask you upfront? Talk about The Sourcing Company, what you guys do, what your role is. >> Well, we are a cloud service provider. We do deliver cloud service to end users. We have a strong vertical focus. We do lawyer companies. We do housing companies. And we do care companies. And especially for the lawyer companies, we have built our own proposition where we connected several applications together, called Magistra, and that's what we bring to companies to use. >> So the model is when you bring a solution on-prem, you bill it like it's a cloud, is that right? >> Absolutely, yeah, it's all pay per use. >> Dave: Okay, describe that a little bit more detail. What are my limitations of that pay per use? >> What's different between the on-prem version and the non-on-prem version? >> I can talk something about it. We have an Azure Pack, which is just a formal system cloud environment. We call it our legacy environment. That's in a pay-per-month model. So we do report to Microsoft what licenses are used, and we do that monthly. Azure and Azure Stack are different. Azure is in a pay-per-second model, and Azure Stack is in a pay-per-minute model. Actually, for the first time, we are also able to create more flexibility. If in our legacy environment, a machine is on for two minutes, we have to pay for it for a month. If we do the same in our Azure Stack environment, well, we have to pay for the minutes. For example, at lawyer offices, you'll have people supporting the lawyers while they work for maybe 16-20 hours a week. You know, the lawyers themselves try to. >> Dave: But they bill a lot more. >> They try to see if they can put 100 hours in a week. And we're now able to create more agility in that, and to make it more flexible. >> So you were an early Azure Stack customer. >> Yeah, we're three years in March of program now. We decided in March on the early Azure Stack, to acquire to buy the Azure Stack. >> So how's it working-- maybe take us through the journey. A lot of times, the first Microsoft product isn't quite right. The second one starts to get really good. And then after it's mature-- >> Ronald: Well, almost. >> Yeah. >> Ronald: Well, our company was founded almost 11 years ago. And we always have looked into ways to simplify our environment. We were founded on the estate of Nyenrode Business University. We were not able to put any service over there, so we decided to put in a data center, and that's what we now call our legacy cloud environment. But in that road, we were always searching to simplify our environment. And Azure Pack was a good step, but not good enough. And Azure Stack, actually, does simplify that. It's a box, and nothing more than that. And if the box runs, then the box runs, and we decide when to update it, and we decide what to put on it, and well, that helps us. Next to the simplification of our environment, we also wanted to be able to generate more standardization. And with Azure Stack, you are forced to use defaults. The best way to use Azure Stack is to create templates and with the creation of templates, you have a defaults environment. So that's also the biggest thing. >> So McLeod, what do you guys bring to the table? What does Microsoft bring into the table? >> Yeah, so obviously we've got a longstanding relationship, partnership, with Microsoft. We worked hand-in-hand with them on the solution. I mean, first of all, it's based on proliant hardware, which we all know and love, but then we've also worked very hard to engineer this solution. One of the things that separates our configuration, our solution, from some of the others, is the expandability. We allow you to scale it by node, so basically, you can add individual nodes. We have some capabilities around adding different memory, and different networking configurations that we support around that. And then also, wrapping some of our flexible capacity capabilities around that to allow a pay-as-you-go type of model, consumption model, very much in line with what he was talking about earlier, that really kind of builds together a complete solution. And the other thing that we've done, is we've co-invested with Microsoft in what we call our Azure Stack Innovation Centers. So there's one in Bellevue and one here in Switzerland, in Geneva, that allows customers to actually go and test and leverage the great capabilities of our solution in a controlled environment. They can actually go there and work with experts to kind of engineer their solution, or they can actually connect remotely to those. And we also spent a lot of time training a lot of individuals. I think somewhere in the neighborhood of about 6,000 individuals in the company from a service and support standpoint to support the solution. So we're very excited about it. >> So as I understand it, you're a cloud service provider. You're a service provider. So how does this granularity provided by Azure Stack translate into a superior experience for your customers? >> Well, it simplified our platform. And while simplifying our platform, we have time up. And we can, in that time, we can do other things. If you look to Magistra, Magistra is a complete workspace for lawyers, and while we are forced to keep it standard, in a default, and keeping the template up to date. So while doing that, we don't have to bother about the things below the template, because that's taken care of by HP and by Microsoft. So it gives us time to think of other things that helps lawyers. And we like to think of things what helps them enable more productivity. For example, for a lawyer, it is absolutely a thing to keep time writing right. And we just announced that we will extract the time-writing with artificial intelligence at keeping up what they do during the day, and at the end of the day, tells them, okay, you worked for 48 minutes on that document. We do take that from that client, and swipe to the right, and it's accepted. Swipe to the left, and that changes. And that, things we like to do to enable more productivity for our end users. >> So the advantages are at least that you can now put more time and energy into creating services. How do you go to market? Do you go to market, is it all self-service? Do you have a direct sales organization that's going out and meeting with law firms? How do you sell your service? >> The things we do most is go to events and sponsor events and tell people that Magistra is there. And then, second, is one-on-one meetings. >> Peter: That's person-to-person. >> Absolutely, yeah. We do think that we put a lot of time in finding out what they need, and what keeps them awake at night. And we try to translate that into software and into a product, Magistra, what's helped them not being awake at night. >> But for many years, one of the challenges of doing this approach for a partner like yourself was, you want to present the solution to the customer in a form that they understand, but the underlying provisioning of the assets and ultimately the costs end up being presented in infrastructure and technology terms, which means a salesperson's having a hard time, the customer's having a hard time. Does this kind of common, simplified approach allow the customer, the salesperson, and the business overall to use a common template to articulate and make commitments about what's going to be delivered, have conversations about what's needed, all of those things. It's just simplifying not only the technology, but the business and how the customer perceives value. >> Well, look at it this way. Implementation time is quite low, because when we go to an office and ask them what they want, we need at least two, maybe three months to implement that. But we have to think about the solution in Magistra, well, we just run the script. It runs for seven hours, and then it's there. The environment's there. 21 servers are enrolled. The SharePoint of the commencement system is enrolled. The things are put in place. So the functionality is there. And maybe it's not answering all the functionality. Maybe it's answering 60, 70, maybe 80%. But it's fast. And that's what they like. >> What is keeping your clients up at night? >> To a lawyer, we do think three things. They want to have a good office functionality. To us, that's Office 365. They want to have a good document management system. Being sure that they are not having two colleagues working on the same case. And time writing. And those three things were the first we enabled in Magistra. >> McLeod, so what's your expectation for this business? I mean you guys have been, the market's been waiting for it for a long time, and it looks like it's here and ready to roll. >> Yeah, we're very excited. I mean, the interest has been very high especially by, with customers, especially in the service provider space, and customers that are looking to deploy Edge applications. That's been really where we've seen the most uptake, at the beginning here. And also some of the other kind of common use cases are things like areas where compliance or data sovereignty is a concern, and we're very excited about it. It's been great so far, so we're looking forward to it this year. >> Do you think other large cloud service providers, namely AWS, are going to have to respond with something like Azure Stack? >> We think they will. >> I mean, I don't see how they could just let that big of a market go. But it's capitulating to the dogma of everything has to be in the cloud. >> Here's what we know. >> You would presumably welcome that. If AWS comes to you and says hey, we want to partner with HP >> Hey, we believe the world is hybrid, right. The world is hybrid, and it's going to be hybrid. >> Peter: This is not a belief. >> And that, yeah. >> Peter: It is. >> Yes. >> It is today. And there's not a lot of changes expected in the laws of physics that are going to change in the next couple of years to make it easier for AWS. I think it's going to be the same basic physics. So from that perspective, it suggests pretty strongly that while there's a lot of use cases and there's a lot of money to be made just on that central piece, and then introducing new technologies like serverless and functional to approximate the ability to serve, but you can't do an office environment easily in a serverless computing world. It's just not how it's going to work. >> True. >> So at the end of the day, AWS is going to be able to do a great business doing what it does, because there's a lot of open space, but if they want to claim that it's everything, if they want to get everything, they're not going to do it by just claiming that this is all going to go away. >> I mean, the TAM of this opportunity for HPE and Microsoft is quite large, right, I would think. >> Oh, it's enormous. >> Anyway, I'd be surprised if we don't see something-- >> They have to respond. >> Anyway, guys, last word on HPE Discover. What's the bumper sticker, pulling out of the show? >> Well they have it, it's stable. They have it all on the right note. >> Dave: On the right path. >> On the right path. >> We're just continuing to make hybrid IT simple, and you've seen more of it here at the show. There's been a lot of exciting announcements and a lot of the technologies that we're bringing together. Azure Stack's just one of many that we've got in our portfolio that we're extremely excited about. >> Gents, thanks so much for coming to theCUBE. It was a pleasure to have you. >> McLeod: Alright, thanks. >> You're welcome. Alright, keep it right there, buddy. Everybody. Peter and I will be back after this.

>> Narrator: Live from Munich, Germany, it's theCube, covering IBM, Fast Track Your Data. Brought to you by IBM. >> Welcome to Fast Track Your Data, everybody, welcome to Munich, Germany, this is theCube, the leader in live tech coverage, I'm Dave Vellante with my co-host Jim Kobielus. Dinesh Nirmal is here, he's the vice president of IBM Analytics Development, of course, at IBM, and he's joined by Roland Voelskow, who is the Portfolio Executive at T-Systems, which is a division of Deutche Telekom. Gentlemen, welcome to theCube, Dinesh, good to see you again. >> Thank you. Roland, let me start with you. So your role inside T-Systems, talk about that a little bit. >> Yeah, so thank you for being here, at T-Systems we serve our customers with all kinds of informal hosting services, from infrastructure up to application services, and we have recently, I'd say, about five years ago started to standardize our offerings as a product portfolio and are now focusing on coming from the infrastructure and infrastructure as a service offerings. We are now putting a strong effort in the virtualization container, virtualization to be able to move complete application landscapes from different platforms from, to T-Systems or between T-Systems platforms. The goal is to make, to enable customers to talk with us about their application needs, their business process needs, and have everything which is related to the right place to run the application will be managed automatically by our intelligent platform, which will decide in a multi-platform environment if an application, particularly a business application runs on high available private cloud or a test dev environment, for example, could run on a public cloud, so the customer should not need to deal with this kind of technology questions anymore, so we want to cover the application needs and have the rest automated. >> Yeah, we're seeing a massive trend in our community for organizations like yours to try to eliminate wherever possible undifferentiated infrastructure management, and provisioning of hardware, and Lund management and those things that really don't add value to the business trying to support their digital transformations and raise it up a little bit, and that's clearly what you just described, right? >> Roland: Exactly. >> Okay, and one of those areas that companies want to invest, of course, is data, you guys here in Munich, you chose this for a reason, but Dinesh, give us the update in what's going on in your world and what you're doing here, in Fast Track Your Data. >> Right, so actually myself and Roland was talking about this yesterday. One of the challenges our clients, customers have is the hybrid data management. So how do you make sure your data, whether it's on-premise or on the cloud, you have a seamless way to interact with that data, manage the data, govern the data, and that's the biggest challenge. I mean, lot of customers want to move to the cloud, but the critical, transactional data sits still on-prem. So that's one area that we are focusing in Munich here, is, especially with GDPR coming in 2018, how do we help our customers manage the data and govern the data all through that life cycle of the data? >> Okay, well, how do you do that? I mean, it's a multi-cloud world, most customers have, they might have some Bluemix, they might have some Amazon, they have a lot of on-prem, they got mainframe, they got all kinds of new things happening, like containers, and microservices, some are in the cloud, some are on-prem, but generally speaking, what I just described is a series of stovepipes, they each have their different lifecycle and data lifecycle and management frameworks. Is it your vision to bring all of those together in a single management framework and maybe share with us where you are on that journey and where you're going. >> Exactly, that's exactly our effort right now to bring every application service which we provide to our customers into containerized version which we can move across our platforms or which we can also transform from the external platforms from competition platforms, and onboard them into T-Systems when we acquire new customers. Is also a reality that customers work with different platforms, so we want to be the integrator, and so we would like to expand our product portfolio as an application portfolio and bring new applications, new, attractive applications into our application catalog, which is the containerized application catalog, and so here comes the part, the cooperation with IBM, so we are already a partner with IBM DB2, and we are now happy to talk about expanding the partnership into hosting the analytics portfolio of IBM, so we bring the strength of both companies together the marked excess credibility, security, in terms of European data law for T-Systems, from T-Systems, and the very attractive analytics portfolio of IBM so we can bring the best pieces together and have a very attractive offering to the market. >> So Dinesh, how does IBM fulfill that vision? Is it a product, is it a set of services, is it a framework, series of products, maybe you could describe in some more depth. >> Yeah, it all has to start with the platform. So you have the underlying platform, and then you build what you talked about, that container services on top of it, to meet the need of our enterprise customers, and then the biggest challenge is that how do you govern the data through the lifecycle of that data, right? Because that data could be sitting on-prem, data could be sitting on cloud, on a private cloud, how do you make sure that you can take that data, who touched the data, where that tech data went, and not just the data, but the analytical asset, right, so if your model's built, when was it deployed, where was it deployed? Was it deployed in QA, was it deployed in development? All those things have to be governed, so you have one governance policy, one governance console that you can go as a CDO to make sure that you can see where the data is moving and where the data is managed. So that's the biggest challenge, and that's what we are trying to make sure that, to our enterprise customers, we solve that problem. >> So IBM has announced at this show a unified governance catalog. Is that an enabler for this-- >> Dinesh: Oh, yeah. >> capability you're describing here? >> Oh yeah, I mean, that is the key piece of all of this would be the unified governance, >> Jim: Right. >> which is, you have one place to go govern that data as the CDO. >> And you've mentioned, as has Roland, the containerization of applications, now, I know that DB2 Developer Community Edition, the latest version, announced at this show, has the ability to orchestrate containerized applications, through Kubernetes, can you describe how that particular tool might be useful in this context? And how you might play DB2 Developer Community Edition in an environment where you're using the catalog to manage all the layers of data or metadata or so forth associated with these applications. >> Right, so it goes back to Dave's question, How do you manage the new products that's coming, so our goal is to make every product a container. A containerized way to deliver, so that way you have a doc or registry where you can go see what the updates are, you can update it when you're ready, all those things, but once you containerize the product and put it out there, then you can obviously have the governing infrastructures that sits on top of it to make sure all those containerized products are being managed. So that's one step towards that, but to go back to your DB2 Community Edition, our goal here is how do we simplify our product for our customers? So if you're a developer, how can we make it easy enough for you to assemble your application in matter of minutes, so that's our goal, simplify, be seamless, and be able to scale, so those are the three things we focused on the DB2 Community Edition. >> So in terms of the simplicity aspect of the tool, can you describe a few features or capabilities of the developer edition, the community edition, that are simpler than in the previous version, because I believe you've had a community edition for DB2 for developers for at least a year or two. Describe the simplifications that are introduced in this latest version. >> So one, I will give you is the JSON support. >> Okay. >> So today you want to combine the unstructured data with structured data? >> Yeah. >> I mean, it's simple, what we have a demo coming up in our main tent, where asset dialup, where you can easily go, get a JSON document put it in there, combined with your structured data, unstructured data, and you are ready to go, so that's a great example, where we are making it really easy, simple. The other example is download and go, where you can easily download in less than five clicks, less than 10 minutes, the product is up and running. So those are a couple of the things that we are doing to make sure that it is much more simpler, seamless and scalable for our customers. >> And what is Project Event Store, share with us whatever you can about that. >> Dinesh: Right. >> You're giving a demo here, I think, >> Dinesh: Yeah, yeah. >> So what is it, and why is it important? >> Yeah, so we are going to do a demo at the main tent on Project Event Store. It's about combining the strength of IBM Innovation with the power of open source. So it's about how do we do fast ingest, inserts into a object store, for example, and be able to do analytics on it. So now you have the strength of not only bringing data at very high speed or volume, but now you can do analytics on it. So for example, just to give you a very high level number we can do more than one million inserts per second. More than one million. And our closest competition is at 30,000 inserts per second. So that's huge for us. >> So use cases at the edge, obviously, could take advantage of something like this. Is that sort of where it's targeted? >> Well, yeah, so let's say, I'll give you a couple of examples. Let's say you're a hospital chain, you want the patient data coming in real time, streaming the data coming in, you want to do analytics on it, that's one example, or let's say you are a department store, you want to see all the traffic that goes into your stores and you want to do analytics on how well your campaign did on the traffic that came in. Or let's say you're an airline, right? You have IOT data that's streaming or coming in, millions of inserts per second, how do you do analytics, so this is, I would say this is a great innovation that will help all kinds of industries. >> Dinesh, I've had streaming price for quite awhile and fairly mature ones like IBM Streams, but also the structured streaming capability of Spark, and you've got a strong Spark portfolio. Is there any connection between Product Event Store and these other established IBM offerings? >> No, so what we have done is, like I said, took the power of open source, so Spark becomes obviously the execution engine, we're going to use something called the Parquet format where the data can be stored, and then we obviously have our own proprietary ingest Mechanism that brings in. So some similarity, but this is a brand new work that we have done between IBM research and it has been in the works for the last 12 to 18 months, now we are ready to bring it into the market. >> So we're about out of time, but Roland, I want to end with you and give us the perspective on Europe and European customers, particular, Rob Thomas was saying to us that part of the reason why IBM came here is because they noticed that 10 of the top companies that were out-performing the S&P 500 were US companies. And they were data-driven. And IBM kind of wanted to shake up Europe a little bit and say, "Hey guys, time to get on board." What do you see here in Europe? Obviously there are companies like Spotify which are European-based that are very data-driven, but from your perspective, what are you seeing in Europe, in terms of adoption of these data-driven technologies and to use that buzzword. >> Yes, so I think we are in an early stage of adoption of these data-driven applications and analytics, and the European companies are certainly very careful, cautious about, and sensitive about their data security. So whenever there's news about another data leakage, everyone is becoming more cautious and so here comes the unique, one of the unique positions of T-Systems, which has history and credibility in the market for data protection and uninterrupted service for our customers, so that's, we have achieved a number of cooperations, especially also with the American companies, where we do a giant approach to the European markets. So as I said, we bring the strength of T-Systems to the table, as the very competitive application portfolio, analytics portfolio, in this case, from our partner IBM, and the best worlds together for our customers. >> All right, we have to leave it there. Thank you, Roland, very much for coming on. Dinesh, great to see you again. >> Dinesh: Thank you. >> All right, you're welcome. Keep it right there, buddy. Jim and I will be back with our next guests on theCube. We're live from Munich, Germany, at Fast Track Your Data. Be right back.

>> Announcer: Live from Las Vegas, it's theCUBE, covering Oracle Modern Customer Experience 2017, brought to you by Oracle. >> Okay, welcome back, everyone. We're live here at the Mandalay Bay Convention Center for the Oracle Modern Customer Experience conference. This is theCUBE's special coverage. I'm John Furrier, joined with my co-host, Peter Burris, head of research at Wikibon.com. Our next guest is Roland Smart, Vice President of Social and Community at Oracle and also the author of The Agile Marketer book, which we'll get into in a minute. He'll hold it up so you can make sure, it's also available on audio books, you can hold it up, go ahead. The Agile Marketer: Turning Customer Experiences into Your Competitive Advantage. Roland, welcome to theCUBE, good to see you. >> Thanks so much for the invite. >> Great to have that book there because it sets the table for what we want to talk about which is we love cloud, we've been loving dev-ops since the cloud hit the scene years and years ago, but now that it's gone mainstream, it's going into marketing, you're seeing marketing cloud, it really opens up this notion of agile and changing things, modern platforms, the replatforming. We heard Mark Heard on the keynote, we've heard through our interviews. There's a replatforming going on in the enterprise across the board, and so it's super exciting. I know that you're also doing some cool stuff, modernization inside Oracle, employing Oracle cloud for Oracle, it's pretty comprehensive, so let's start there. What's your role at Oracle? It's kind broad, social and community, which is cutting edge and being operationalized in real time. What are you working on? >> Yeah, so, I've worn a couple different hats in my tenure at Oracle. I've been with the company for about four years. I was one of those marketers who came into the company through an acquisition of a social technology company, and so, I ended up landing in the corporate marketing group. I've, as I said, done a couple different things. I've led the Oracle Technology Network for a while, I was involved in establishing and upgrading our corporate social programs, but right now, I'm really focused on some modernization initiatives, and those are very connected to our inbound marketing practice. That means taking some of these amazing solutions that are part of the Oracle marketing cloud and implementing them for the corporate marketing group. The ones that are really core to my focus are, because it's an inbound marketing focus it's Compendium, which is our content publishing platform. Of course, we also integrate that with Eloqua for subscription and there are other adjacent technologies that we're going to use to improve the service, things like Maximizer, which will allow us to iterate and do testing and improve the service over time. And of course, integrating into all the other major parts of the corporate marketing stack, which includes a DMP and a customer experience database and all the rest. >> So, here at the show, you're seeing marketing cloud being broader defined because it's the customer on a digital life cycle, no analog, I mean, from inception to the moment of truth the experience is digital. It changes things a bit. What is your observation that you could point to as you look at these changes that're going on, tweaks here and radical changes there, what's the big shift, what's the digital value in that digital journey of a customer when it comes to marketing? I mean, it seems that marketing's involved in all touch points. >> It is, I mean, I think, sorry, I think you're talking a little bit about the fact that digital transformation is kind of dominating the marketer's consciousness at the moment. We're very, very focused on really transitioning the experiences that we deliver and to engage with customers and to a digital environment, and that means that there's two side of that. Of course, there's the technology side, but there's also the practices side. I think that a lot of the conversation to date has really been dominated by just an incredible proliferation of marketing technology, the Martech stack, right, is growing at an incredible pace. One of the things that I see, for example-- >> Peter: It's almost daunting, it's huge. >> Rolad: It is. >> It's growing and churning. >> And there's still much more proliferation in the Martech space than there is consolidation even with companies like Oracle acquiring just an incredible number of companies in a relatively short period of time. We've built this amazing stack, but still, there's a lot of venture dollars that are still chasing unmet needs. There are niches that aren't being met, and that says something about the overall maturity of the marketing stack, right. We're still fairly early days in that process, and the technology, what's interesting is that the technology piece in some ways is actually easier than the process change and the culture change that is associated with actually trying to be, develop a strong competency when it comes to these digital channels. I think there's an agile transformation that needs to take place as the digital transformation takes place, and that is really focused on that cultural change and the way that we work, so that we can get the most value out of these digital channels. One of the things that I would just add about an agile transformation, though, is that I think it is a little bit broader than just digital transformation in the sense that you can apply agile to analog channels as well, it's more of an approach or a philosophy, a way of working that happens to be the best practice when it comes to digital platforms, 'cause agile came out of the software development world. Agile's not new, agile really started over 15 years ago when the Agile Manifesto was written by some very, very smart software developers. In the last 15 years, it's become the dominant approach to software development, but beyond that, product management has adopted it, and it's a big part of what has led to the empowerment of product management leaders, I think, is the most influential leader at the most influential, or innovative companies in the world, right. I think marketers have an opportunity to take a page from that book as, of course, marketers are managing more software than ever before. And as we transition to a world in which we're moving away from this campaign-oriented mindset where there's a campaign that has a beginning, a middle, and an end, and more towards a product, a program-oriented mindset where there's an ongoing service. >> It's an always-on environment. >> It's an always-on environment where we need to continually iterate and evolve that experience. >> And I think that is the key, I mean, your book you held up called The Agile Marketer, it really does make sense, and I truly believe this, and people who know me, I always rant on this, but I believe that agile and these principles that are well-founded in practice, certainly on the software development side, are moving into data and apps, and ultimately, content and marketing and all the stuff that's in the platform because it's the same trajectory, it's the same concepts. You're doing things that require speed, there's a user component, app component, there's technology involved, so there's a lot of moving parts with it, but it's all threading together. Is that what the book is touching on? Talk about the book. >> Yeah, it is. I mean, so we touched on some of the reasons why marketers are coming to agile. One of them is kind of a no-brainer, we're managing more software than ever before. I don't think anybody's going to argue about that. I think there are some second order things, though, that you touched on with your comments there that are worth calling out. Marketers, well first off, agile is really an approach or a philosophy, which is predicated on this idea that we're working in contexts where it's very difficult to predict the future. There's a lot of uncertainty, there's a lot of disruption, so the traditional methods that we've used, waterfall which is really, waterfall is based on our ability to predict the future. Create a perfect strategy that's going to unfold over a period of time, but I would challenge you to talk to any marketer here and ask them what marketing plan that they've developed that survived implementation more than three months. Marketers are working in this environment with this tremendous amount of change, so. >> Well, Peter and I were talking about the intro, about the role of data, and I'll give you a case in point is that when, to be agile and to be fast and be, I won't say command and control, but to use that metaphor is, the CEO or business leader, or even someone in the trenches, a hero, an innovator, says, "Wow, there's an opportunity to move the needle," innovate or whatever they see, 'cause some data insight, surfaces insight, and they go, "Wow, that changes everything. "Deploy X, Y, and Z," or "Tweak this." >> Let's do something small, validate if we're heading in the right direction quickly, and then, if we get a signal that says, hey, there's something that's working here, we'll invest more and iterate, and it really removes waste from the process of developing marketing programs. >> This is the thing, I think you're on to something with this, and this is what we talk about in the cloud wards. In cloud, we hear things like standing up servers, Horizontally scalable. In marketing it's stand up that campaign now, which you might have an hour notice. Imagine rolling up and standing up a multi-geography campaign in an hour. >> Roland: Right. >> That should be doable. >> Absolutely, and I think, so, going back to some of the second order things, one of the things that marketers are challenged to do is if we want to stand up a campaign, it's not just that the marketer's world is changing more quickly, right. Product management adopted agile because their world is moving very quickly, so if you have a situation where product management is deploying something on a monthly basis or even on a daily basis, marketing needs to work at that same pace. And so, agile can be a collaboration layer where because they speak the same language and share a similar process, they can stay in sync. When you do that, you can deliver experiences that kind of blur the boundary between what I would call traditional marketing and what we think of as product. This is a really interesting space, and I would say one of the most fun spaces where I've ever had the opportunity to work is when you can blur that boundary. And so, having agile means not just that we can deploy our own programs quickly and test them quickly and validate that we're heading in the right direction, but it means that we can do that in close collaboration with our product management peers. And really, that's where you get to incredible value. >> One of the reasons why it's diffused into product management as aggressively as it has is because increasingly the products are being rendered as services that have significant digital components to them. You mentioned the idea of philosophy, and it's kind of an interesting case to show how the agile philosophy has hopped from software development into products, it's now into marketing. My observation, I want to test this with you and see if you have anything to add is that the agile philosophy is founded on three core principles. One is that you have to be empirical. Two is that you have to be iterative. And three is that you have to be opportunistic. And you can add others, like you got to be people focused, and you got to recognize time-bound, et cetera, and all those types of things, but as you look at marketing, is marketing starting to adopt that notion of you got to be empirical, you got to be iterative, and you got to be opportunistic? You can't, you know, hold onto your babies, so to speak. Is that kind of what's at the base of some of this new philosophical changes, or are you seeing some other things as well? >> Yeah, I mean, I think you've definitely touched on some of the drivers. I think that there are, something that I would recommend people who, marketers who are interested in agile should check out a document called The Agile Marketing Manifesto, which interprets The Agile Manifesto for marketers, and like The Agile Manifesto, it has a set of values and a set of underlying principles. The three things that you called out relate pretty tightly to some of the values that are baked into The Agile Manifesto and The Agile Marketing Manifesto. I think one of the central ideas is that because we can't predict the future, we need to do, or we're operating in sort of a chaotic domain where we're in this domain with this unknown unknowns. We don't really know how people are going to react, we can't predict that well, and so, we need to get into this different modality or mindset where we say, you know what, instead of trying to build a perfect strategy, we're just going to do lots of small things. We're going to test things, we're going to validate that we're heading in the right direction or not. >> Peter: Test empirical. >> Yeah, that's all about the testing and validation with empirical data. >> Peter: The iterative. >> Yep, and then, you just keep iterating on that and zeroing in on product market fit or the value that the program-- >> Or the option seems best, which is the opportunistic, and there are others as well, but are marketers having a hard time doing that, or in your experience, do they start? >> It's a pretty significant, yeah, it's a very significant change. Most marketers are, grew up with or started their career with waterfall, and waterfall is still very dominant. If you were to look, for example, what is the, what in the context of, or in the parlance of crossing the chasm, where are we with agile marketing? >> I think we've crossed that. >> I think we're at a place where we see early adopters who are out there really proving value but the pragmatists in the marketplace, the people who adopt something because they're getting on the bandwagon, because their peer are doing it, it's not there yet. It's on their radar, but it's not there yet. What I see happening is that there's, we're just at the beginning of starting an ecosystem that is going to support taking agile more mainstream. What I mean is if you look at, for example, the biggest management consulting firms, the McKinseys, the Bains, they are now building out agile transformation practices that are coupled to their digital transformation practice that already exists and has existed for a while. If you look at the company's out there that do certification and training, folks who will come into your organization and train you on Scrum or Kanban, the two most popular agile methods, they have traditionally been focused on engineers and product managers. They are now starting to build offerings for business-oriented folks. We're starting to see agile sessions and tracks at conferences like this one. Obviously, people like me are writing books, and there are more books coming to market, so these are the signals that marketers, this is getting on marketers' radar and that they're transitioning. I think where you see the most traction for agile, there are certain silos within the marketing function where you see more traction with it. >> Peter: Social being a big one. >> Social being a big one. >> Because the data's available. >> Marketing automation being a really big one, 'cause fundamentally, it's about testing and validation, and these programs are always running, so you're constantly evaluating the performance of messages that you're sending out, and tweaking them and optimizing them. Solutions like the ones, we have a solution in the Oracle marketing cloud called Maximizer, which is just, it is fundamentally an enabler, an enabling technology to allow a marketer to be agile. We can do things in the context of our publishing platform where we can show multi-variant, we can run multi-variant tasks and show them to users and quickly validate what's working and what's not, and so, that's a very different way of working than I think marketers have traditionally adopted. We talked already about the fact that just bringing in the technology is actually, I think, easier than trying to drive the cultural change. The cultural change is really, really hard, and we're still at the beginning of that process, I think. >> And your final thoughts, I want to get to the final question here on this evolution, the progress bar, if you will, crossing the chasm. This is a sea change, so I think a lot of people, we live in the bubble in Silicon Valley, but middle of the industry, middle of America, they're still doing waterfall, which they need, in my opinion, need to move to agile, but because of the benefits of having a platform and enabling technologies and products, 'cause apps is where the action is, we agree. What is your big takeaway from this year in terms of this show and the impact of this platform, this enabling concept that you guys are pushing for? What's the most important thing folks should understand about agile, social, platform, modern customer experience? >> We talked a minute ago about the Martech ecosystem, and the fact that overall the ecosystem is still, there's immaturity for the overall ecosystem, but within that ecosystem there are some very mature solutions, and I think that particularly for enterprises that are using those more mature solutions, they are now transitioning from this period where they've been very focused on building that technology stack, and they're starting to think about how do we more dramatically make changes to the way that we work so that we can develop a stronger competency in digital, and I think that this connects to, if you were to ask me, connecting this back to modern marketing, at what point can a company sort of say, okay, we meaningfully positioned ourselves. >> We're modern, we're modernized. >> What is modern? >> What is modern, and so, >> That's a great question. >> from my perspective, I would connect it back to the role that the CMO plays or the marketing organization plays within the larger company. We talked a little bit about the fact that the product management leader has really been empowered over a long period of time in large part because they've adopted agile, and they're working in a different way. They are serving as the steward of innovation. The marketer has this aspiration to really serve as the steward of customer experience. Now today, we're at a place where most marketers, we're really in the best position to measure and understand the customer experience, but we have limited influence when it comes to changing those touch points. A lot of those touch points aren't under our direct purview. So, we need to get that influence. One way to get that influence is to share the process of the people who have control over those things, that means when we, again, we have agile, we can share process with project management, we can influence those touch points more, that is when the marketer can step up and truly serve as the steward of customer experience, that's when I would say that we've sort of reached the status of modern era. >> A modern era. I think you're on to something. I think the checkbox immediately is are you agile. That's a quick acid test, yes or no. I think that's so fundamental, but I think the user experience is really key, and you've seen the platforms become the enabler where the apps are just coming out, it's a tsunami of apps, and that's an okay thing, but the platform has to be stable. I think that's just an evolution of the role of software, from shrink wrap, from downloading on the internet, to web 2.0 to mobile to platform. >> I'd step back even one level before that, John, and say are you empirical? At the end of the day, is your culture ready to make changes based on what the data says? Because then it says you're going to go out and get the data, you're going to use the data, then you can-- >> And the data has to be good, data has to be legit. >> It has to be good. >> And not dirty. >> 'Cause if you are, then you can have that, we talked about this earlier, then you can have that conversation with the leader and empower the leader to actually lead change. >> Data orientation, customer orientation is a really, those are both critical values that are baked into agile. >> Absolutely. You have to test your organization on whether or not they're really able to do those things. If they are, then a lot of the other stuff that you're talking about falls, starts falling a little bit more naturally into place. >> Well, Roland, we need to follow up, certainly, back in Palo Alto in our studio. This has been really, I think, an important conversation that's worthy of more dialogue, what is a modern organization in this new era of computing where the expectations of the customers and the users and the consumers are at an all-time high? You're seeing the demand and the need for a platform that's truly enabling innovation and value. Certainly great conversation, thanks for joining us on theCUBE today. Sharing the insight as we stay agile, modern here on theCUBE. I'm John Furrier with Peter Burris. Be right back with more after this short break. (electronic keyboard music)

>>Welcome back to the cubes coverage of Dell tech world 2022. My name is Dave Volante and I'm here in our cube studios in Massachusetts getting ready for the first in person DT w since 2019, you know, Charles Phillips, the CEO of Infor and former Oracle ex once set on the cube friends, don't let friends build data centers anymore. It's just not the best use of capital for most companies, unless you happen to be in the data center business like Sexter organizations wanna make hybrid connections to the cloud. They need a partner that knows how to build and manage world class data centers that are both efficient and resilient. And in this segment, we're gonna talk about the importance of hybrid strategies for organizations, how they're approaching hybrid and why a partner strategy is important to support the next decade of digital transformation initiatives. And with me are Randy Roland. Who's the COO of six Tara and Holland Barry, who is the field CTO for the company. Gentlemen, welcome to the cube. Thanks for coming on. >>Thank you. >>Good to meet her. Thanks for having us. >>Hey, Randy, as a relatively new player, unlike a lot of data center operators, Cera, you're not shackled by decades of technical debt. Tell us more about the company. >>Yeah. So as you, uh, already discussed Ceras a data center company, and we're one of the few that can provide colocation globally. And so that allows our customers to scale, uh, across the globe, as our business scales, we operate in 28 markets. We have over 60 data centers and we continue to add more dots to the map based on customer demand. And the primary way we differentiate is that we've built a true global data center platform. And what do I mean by that is that we have a combination of 2300 customers, uh, enterprises, technology, service providers, government agencies, we're a leader in interconnection. Uh, we have a commitment to carry neutrality and to provide low latency access to all the different cloud platforms. And we've made major investments in developing our own technology in house. And this will come out. As we talk about hybrid cloud is to make our data centers easier to consume. Uh, we live in a cloud first world, and so we've got to be able to be responsive and be able to deliver capacity on demand and to allow our customer members to dynamically connect to each other so they can start to consume these valuable services. And so that's really what we're doing at Cera. >>You know, Randy, just a follow up is because when the cloud first came out, everybody said, oh, companies like, like yours, Dana data center operations are toast. And the exact opposite happened. It was like this rising tide lifted all boats. The, the business is, is booming. It's, uh, it's actually quite room, isn't it? >>Yeah, actually it's a good point. We actually lean into, uh, cloud consumption. I think, uh, if you remember, the cloud operates in four walls. And so when a company, um, actually starts to deploy and leverage more, they need a place to land their digital infrastructure hub, where they can make connections to all the different cloud solutions they're gonna consume. And they're using their own internal resources at the same time. And so the more that we adopt cloud, um, and lean into cloud, the more likely our customer gonna choose us. And back to your opening comment about, uh, the, the quote from the Oracle executive in, in my career, I've been in the data center business for a long time and it, it's definitely a generational thing. We have newer generation of it leaders when they think about their internal data center, their actual internal data center is ours. They're thinking about their own four walls sitting on their own property like they did historically. And so, uh, they view internal data centers as the contracts they have, uh, with six companies like six. >>Excellent. All right, Holland, let's bring you into the conversation. What are you seeing with, with hybrid cloud strategies? You, why are companies choosing hybrid? Give us some color there. >>Yeah, I think, you know, we, as a company sit in an interesting confluence of some workload movements, if you will. Um, so I think there's been, in some cases, an overcorrection in the public cloud, people thought that a cloud first strategy meant that you have to throw everything up in a public cloud. Uh, especially over the last couple years when we had, you know, the surprise of a large remote workforce. And as you mentioned at the top of the call, Dave, we also have folks with the shrinking appetite to own and operate their data centers, right? So the hybrid approach is a, um, a selective methodology to really look at the applications, uh, look at the strengths of each one of those venues, where you can run your applications and workloads, and really choosing the one that uses the strengths. And there's several, uh, drivers behind that. Uh, some of them are cost. Some of them are performance. Some of them might have to do a security or data sovereignty. Um, so you can really match those requirements and those business outcomes that you're looking to achieve, uh, and align them with that platform. That's that's best suited to serve it. >>So you mentioned a few of 'em, but I wanna sort of stay on that for a minute. Is it, is it, you know, egress cost, everybody talks about that, you know, latency proximity to the cloud. I mean, I think there's a lot of times, I think the ideal situation is you put your high performance, you know, transaction low latency stuff in one of your data centers. And, you know, a lot of the data is, is in the cloud that you might need access to. But is there other innovation, you know, talk a little bit more about the drivers that you're seeing with customers? >>Absolutely. We, I think, um, as it relates to data gravity and the potential relation to egress charges, that is a huge, uh, consideration, cuz there's a cost and a performance component to that. If you decide you want to take that data and move somewhere else, if it's in the public cloud, you're gonna pay some, uh, pretty large egres fees, but there's certainly other drivers, um, performance being another big one. Uh, if I've got a, a data lake or, or a big data analytics platform or maybe an AI platform that needs to live close to the data. Um, and especially if those workloads that are associated with crunching, the data are kind of high steady state, maybe even mission critical workloads that is certainly a workload profile. That's better suited to run within our four walls. You can have those CPU or GPU comput nodes sitting right next to those large data sets, operating with each other at land speed. Um, so in terms of the drivers behind, uh, making a, a venue change, if you will, I think cost is one of the biggest ones that we see and, and maybe performance and security following close after. >>So, so how are customers approaching hybrid? Can you paint a picture of kinda what that connection looks like and how, how they, you know, land on their strategies? >>Yeah, absolutely. So they're doing, uh, what I like to call a workload appropriateness, uh, exercise. And as they think about recalibrating where those workloads live, exactly what I said before, they're looking at the strengths of the platform and, uh, lining up those application profiles to live in, in the appropriate place. We have a unique advantage, uh, because of our interconnection profile and our adjacency to public cloud platforms, where if people want to have application tiers that may be sent on both sides of the fence, if you will, uh, we have super, super low latency connections. You can connect, you know, layer two, uh, maybe out to AWS, um, and, you know, have your VPC on one side, have, uh, you know, dedicated single tenant environments on our side and have those applications interact with each other. And then in a super low latency fashion, >>Hey, lemme just ask a follow up question on that. Because I remember the Y2K days, there was a, a lot of activity, a lot of spending and then CIOs wanted to look at their portfolio and, and rationalize that portfolio. When you talk about workload appropriateness, are you seeing a similar application rationalization exercise going on or is it just a Hey can spending, >>Uh, absolutely. We're seeing rationalization and I think what's happening is folks are getting a little more savvy about forecasting, the growth of their application, uh, the growth of the data associated with it, what the cost may be associated with needing to move them around to different venues. Um, and so we're, we're definitely seeing people look at those numbers and make decisions about workload placement based on that analytics and, and kind of knowledge of what it means down the road and also where the data might need to live locally too. We're seeing people, uh, being a little more cognizant geographically around data where it lives and how that relates to where the computer associated with that data is. >>Yeah. Hey Randy, can you tell us a little bit more from a business perspective about the Dell partnership? How did that come about, you know, who does, what, what are the swim lanes overlaps? Maybe you can help us understand that. >>Yeah, so we're very excited about, uh, our Dell partnership, as you can imagine, with as many customers and many data centers, as we've got deployed, we have Dell, uh, located it in a large percentage of our customer environments. And so it's just natural that we work together to figure out how we can continue to meet, uh, our customer's needs. And so the core idea that I'm excited about around Dell is that Dell has an excellent technology platform in all fronts, they've got great compute and storage and all types of software solutions. And what we want to do is help them make their platform more on demand. And so what do I mean by that? If you think about the historical, uh, time, it takes to deploy a traditional colo environment from the time you spec the cage, do you ship the equipment, you install the network, you rack and stack the equipment, unload the cloud stack. >>It takes weeks to months to deploy. And so what we're doing is working very closely with Dell to look at our existing customers and new prospects that are interested in their platform and how can we pre-provision that capacity in, in the data center make it so it's already plugged into the data center already is powered up. It's connected to the network and a customer can purchase it on demand. And so the idea behind this is how can we give our customers all the benefits of Kolo, which is what, uh, Holland was talking about a minute ago, but deliver that platform at the speed of cloud. And that's really the essence of the partnership we have with Dell. Uh, we think it could be explosive. Uh, we think there's a lot of opportunity, not only, uh, for us, but also for Dell as they continue to retain their customers and their customers go through tech refresh cycles, if they can have on demand technology that they're already familiar with, they can get the benefits that you get from co-location at the speed of cloud. And that that's what our, the, the basis of our, our relationship. >>Yeah. Thank you. So Holland, I mean, Randy was saying one of the pillars of Dell tech world this year is the whole as a service thrust. And, you know, essentially what it is, my, my viewpoint is Dell's building out its own cloud. That's, you know, it's, it's its aspiration I think, is to connect on-prem to, through hybrid, to public clouds across clouds, out to the edge extract that all that complexity and you guys would be a key part of that from a, from a CTO's perspective, that's a different mindset. I mean, it changes the way we manage, think about procure, you know, spend, uh, um, and, and maybe that even the technical configurations of, of how we deliver and consume it, you give us some thoughts on that. >>Absolutely. Look, I think what we're doing is we're laying the foundation for a truly hybrid experience. Um, Randy mentioned, uh, us going through great lengths with our technology partners like Dell and make the data center consumable in an automated fashion. And so as we increasingly move into technologies like containers and using coordinators managers like Kubernetes, we really now have the ability to make a true hybrid experience. And if you think about the experience of deploying, you know, in a data center, whether it's your own or a co like ours, that was, you know, a 60 to 90 day conversation to, to get that infrastructure spun up. And so now if you can consume public cloud resources, just like we've been used to doing where you can swipe a card and get access to infrastructure in a matter of minutes or hours have the same experience with us, we've kind of closed that last mile of infrastructure delivery. And the other neat thing about this is, uh, if you have a cloud first mandate, if some of those workloads are running a ter data center, uh, we check all those same boxes, right? Uh, we, we have infrastructure that sits off X. We have a global platform. Uh, we have, you know, highly automated environment. So you can really now start extracting yourself a little bit from the infrastructure and start focusing on the important stuff, which the applications that sit on top. >>So from a security standpoint, you have a similar, you know, the cloud guys talk about the shared responsibility model. Is that a similar model that, that you guys have? Can you describe that? >>Yeah, it's, it's, it's very analogous to this shared responsibility model and, and public cloud. We give a little bit more control to our customers, like things like, you know, dictate maintenance windows. Um, we give a little bit more control in terms of access to the infrastructure. Uh, it's one of the reasons that organizations like running infrastructure with us is because we can hand off control to these certain things that the lower levels of the infrastructure stack versus that higher level of abstraction that happens with public cloud. >>And what, what kind of skills are you after, uh, these days? Is it people that can squeeze, you know, more power and, you know, more efficient cooling, uh, is it infrastructure management? You mentioned Kubernetes before. What, what matters to a company like yours from a skill standpoint? >>Yeah. And to terms of our staff, it is at the lower, uh, levels of the stack, if you will. So maybe going, you know, up to, uh, layer two or three, if we think about the OSI model. So certainly power engineering, cooling engineering, the stuff that physically runs our, our data center, that's our meat and potatoes. That's important to us, but as you consider our digital platform, um, certainly the networking, uh, know how knowledge of the entire stack, knowing how things are architected, understanding how cloud works, how understanding how cloud connectivity works. These are all super, super important skill sets. So we span the spectrum a bit. Um, but it's less on the upper ends of it, you know, kind of going up to layer seven, >>Although I'd imagine that data center automation is obviously a big part of your, your IP, right. Is that something that you have guys bring to the table? Yes. >>Yeah, it's actually one of our key innovations is around how we've architected our software platform, how we do our automation, uh, how we run our network. Uh, we we've, uh, built a, a super, super innovative SDN fabric that powers all of our Metro regions that enables the delivery, the infrastructure that hangs off of it. Um, so yeah, a huge percentage of our I P is around that software innovation and, uh, networking automation. >>Great. Randy, I wonder if you could close it out for us. Uh, I'd love your thoughts on where you'd like to see the Dell partnership go and any other, you know, information you'd like to leave the audience with. >>Yeah. I think you've asked a couple questions about the perspective from a CTO and the way that we want to build our solutions is if you are a CTO or if you're a cloud architect, what we are trying to build is a set of Legos to allow you to assemble your ultimate hybrid it solution to use a combination of traditional colocation, where you have equipment that you own, that you manage on demand, bare metal from great partnerships, like where we have with Dell, that can augment what you have in colo have access to a rich ecosystem of technology providers that sit in the same data center markets so that you can start to, to actually augment your it architecture with a lot of our, um, uh, solution providers that sit within our, our, our markets access to cloud OnRamp. So you get low latency access to public cloud to start to leverage some of the technologies they have, and also have the ability to switch, right? If you start with one cloud cloud provider, and at some point you find something more cost efficient, or a little bit more architecturally, uh, built that we can, uh, uh, facilitate that switch. And then also to have connectivity to all the different network carriers that we have. And so, and, and also to do it globally, right? And so our mission is to give the CTO and the cloud architect, the ultimate Legos, uh, to build their custom solution, it's highly, um, cost effective and meets all the technology requirements. >>Yeah. Hedging that risk and having exit strategies, I think is huge. Every, every customer needs to think about that, uh, before they, they dive into the cloud. Okay, guys, we gotta leave it there. Thanks so much for coming in the cube. Great discussion. >>Thank you. Thanks for having us. >>And thank you for watching our ongoing coverage of Dell technologies, world 2022, the in-person live version where we insert great deep dive interviews like this one that focus on key customer topics. Keep it right there. You're watching the cube.

>> Narrator: Live from San Diego California it's theCUBE covering Cisco Live, US, 2019 brought to you by Cisco and its ecosystem partners. >> Welcome back we're here at the San Diego convention center for Cisco Live 2019 and you're watching theCUBE the worldwide leader in enterprise tech coverage helping extract the signal from the noise. I'm Stu Miniman we've had three days wall to wall coverage my co-host Dave Vellante and Lisa Martin are all in the house and I'm really excited to actually sit down one on one with one of the users at this user conference the 30th anniversary conference actually for Cisco with their users and partners over 28,000 so speaking for all of them right? We have Sebastien Morissette who's an IT architect specialist at Intact Financial Corporation come to us from beautiful Montreal Canada. >> Exactly. >> All right thank you so much for joining us so Sebastien first of all how many Cisco Lives have you been too? >> Honestly this is my first. >> Oh absolutely exciting for that, my first one I came too was actually 10 years ago I joked at the 20th anniversary they went back 20 years to have some 80's bands they had The Bangles and Devo on and now on the 30 year they moved 10 years forwards they have two great bands from the 90's Wheezer and Foo Fighters so your first time at Cisco Live give us your general impressions of the show. >> Well actually it's been very great I've had a lot of appearances I had to do as well so I got some sessions in I did some work as well so it's amazing to see how these events unfold right? Like the sheer size of this thing and how many people are involved, how many booths how many technical sessions you can have so, I was very pleased I'm here with a lot of people from my team as well from Intact so you know we get the chance to do stuff outside of the work area as well so it's interesting right? It's giving us this opportunity to really deep dive into what we love which is technology but at the same time spend some time together outside of work. >> That's awesome, we've had gorgeous weather here in San Diego hope you definitely get to see the sights before we geek out on some of the technology just give our audience a little bit about Intact and the insurance business but give us a little bit about the history of the company and core focus. >> Okay well Intact is a company that was, they grew as acquisitions with acquisitions we've typically, we were ING Canada back in, before 2010 and afterwards we were publicly traded now so we're Intact Financial Corp. Typically we're the number one PNC insurer in Canada and we've been working with different partners to build our data center 2.0 initiative which is kind of a new offering of you know modern IT services within Intact. >> Okay great and just to, your purview in the company and just the comment about the company is you know when you talk about those transformations you know MNA is something we see a lot in your industry and put some extra special challenges in place when you're doing that but tell us a little bit about what's under your role and scope as to kind of locations, people however you measure you know what, boxes or ports or whatever. >> Okay well you know typically my role is lead architect within the infrastructure and security group for North America Intact through acquisition we actually bought OneBeacon Insurance last year, so typically we now have a US presence as well in specialty insurance, specialty lines so typically whenever we're looking at different technologies we look at the skills sets that we have, we look to see what can be the better half for us to you know accelerate and be more agile in how we actually consume technology so in some cases whatever we're looking at building up these new features like I was talking for data center 2.0 it happens that some of the technologies and the skill sets we have were with Cisco which is why we are here today with the team. >> All right so Sebastien you talk about data center 2.0 and transformation there at the organizational level is it branded data center transformation does the word digital transformation come up in your discussions? >> Yeah data center 2.0 is actually kind of the project name that we've been giving this initiative for the past two years but it really is at the essence a digital transformation, what we're doing is we're typically taking training wheels to the Cloud so we're building an on-prem private Cloud offering with multi-sites so we have three sites in the scope right now and the goal is really to actually allow our business to expand into the Cloud while being in a secure on-prem environment when we get to that maturity level where we feel we're ready to actually really go into public Cloud our software engineering teams our development teams will have experienced it on-prem safely and will have a confidence level to bringing them there so it has been transformational also because we decided to push DevOps culture as far as we can from an infrastructure team so we were trying to get all the adoption from our software engineering folks to actually structure themselves, bring on DevOps team and that we can share with them so they can actually be more agile and get a lot more done without having to depend on us and spend a lot of time waiting for VM's or stuff so trying to accelerate that. >> Awesome I love that 'cause sometimes you hear okay we're going to 2.0 it's basically a fancy refresh but we're going to keep things mostly the same when I hear DevOps I know that culture and organization is something that is a key piece of that, I have to ask you without getting down into the pedantics of this, when you say a private Cloud that's in your data center we understand some of the covenants and reasons what you have but how do you determine whether, what was your guiding line as to how is this a Cloud versus just some new virtualized environment? >> I've had the chance to have great executive sponsorship from my senior vice president typically we were looking at how can we access the Cloud? The way I approached it was overhauling what we do was not the route to go what I asked him to do is say you know trust me I'll start with a clean slate and we will build a brand new landing area for Cloud native applications and new methodologies for modern IT services so typically in the end we didn't overhaul anything that we had we built a brand new sandbox for Intact to be able to work with so we went from disaster recovery to business continuity in that move we've built a three site approach because when I was looking at kind of my capex expenditure if I was building two sites to be fully resilient and be business continuity I would be spending 200% of my capital to actually build up that capacity when you go to three sites it seems awkward but you just need 50% on each site of your capacity to ensure 100% of coverage of your requirements, so in the end you're actually spending 150% of your capacity, or your capex to buy the compute, so there's an incentive there as well. So to answer your question more precisely it's very easy for us to see how it's a Cloud because we're not operating it the same way we're operating our other environment and since we started from scratch every process has been revised we haven't kept everything we had before so we had the chance to build something brand new for that specific offering that our software engineering groups were asking us to do. >> All right that's exciting stuff there when you look at these multi-site deployments I think back in my career and I worked on some of these environments, management, security and networking are absolutely critical, I hear oh okay I've got 50% in each oh my God what if a site gets isolated and I can't talk to those other two so luckily I'm guessing Cisco has something to do with your rollout, we're obviously here at Cisco Live so give us a little bit inside the architecture and especially you know what kind of Cisco pieces are you using? >> All right well you know typically the way that our story started was kind of weird the first thing we've done is we've actually went to Cisco to redesign a DMZ and we got out from Cisco Montreal team with an idea to not just change and buy ACI switches for the DMZ but actually rebuild our whole design to you know integrate ACI into the fabric and then when you start talking about firewalls or switches they tell you well with ACI you have contracts so it really started that way so we built an ACI fabric with the Cisco HyperFlex hyper-converged infrastructure as our compute layer so typically think of it as Intact is building our new version of a software defined data center. So with building that we have all the components so we have the virtualization like you spoke of earlier which is running like you know VMware on site, on top of the HyperFlex and then we have the ACI since we had three sites we topped it off with the multi-site orchestrator to be able to manage consistent policies around all of our three sites and in the end we needed to have an orchestrator to be able to deploy the content onto that and when we were looking at it early on it was Clicker when Cisco purchased Clicker we were looking at finding a Cloud management platform, so we ended up using CloudCenter which is now CloudCenter Suite and in the way we were using it, which was a little atypical from the typical way clients are using CloudCenter today we're taking it into the data center and out to the Cloud whereas when I was talking with Kip Compton earlier this week he was saying you know what sometimes our clients buy it more for the Cloud first and I was like well we have like the inverse story of exactly how we did the opposite but it works as well, so typically where we stand today I have the three sites we're able to deploy with CloudCenter we've got multi-site on top of that and the idea it really is that, I spoke about training wheels earlier well we're taking them off right? In the next couple of weeks we're starting to look into negotiations with public Cloud providers trying to move towards the public Cloud and you know there's exciting news that came out from Cisco this week while I was here about the fact that now you know they're forecasting a lot more collaboration with Microsoft and AWS and now they have all the three major Cloud providers covered with ACI Anywhere so that means all of our security that you were talking about earlier will now have a consistent policy model applied all, everywhere so to be honest I'm not too concerned about if we did a good choice a couple of years back I think we're in our sweet spot right now. >> Yeah and you're right it's a different story than we've generally heard from Cisco and some customers which is I have all of these public Cloud's and I have my data center and I'm looking for some piece to help tie it together and that the CloudCenter Suite is there so you feel you're confident with the platform that you chose and that's going to give you the flexibility as to whichever public Cloud or public Cloud you choose are you at the point there that do you know which public Cloud you're going to be on or maybe it's a little too early? >> Well to be honest you know we're keeping our options open you know we have different providers that are offered, you know the major public one there's Amazon there's Google Cloud we're not closing any options it's really a question of us to do the same secure approach that we've done right now with this offering to really go one at a time make sure that we're able to nail it down, make it secure that we get all the information back so I'm not at a possibility right now to disclose which ones we're dealing with because we're still negotiating but in the end we're not limiting ourselves we just want to be able to scale. >> Right you're confident that the Cisco solution that you choose will give you the flexibility no matter which one you use or if you use multiples or need to make switches along the way? >> Yeah. >> Question I have for you on that is when you look at multi-Cloud one of the things that are challenging for companies is how do I make sure I've got the skillsets because workloads might be portable, networks might be connected but understanding how I manage each of those environments so do you feel CloudCenter Suite's going to help you through that? You know what do you see as you look out over your roadmap as to what that's going to mean for you know your DevOps team and the people managing this environment as it spreads out to the public Cloud? >> Actually I'm feeling really confident because you know especially after seeing a couple of sessions of what Roland Acra and Kip have announced for the data center and for the Cloud piece we're seeing more and more normalization being done by Cisco to actually allow us to be confident in the fact that on prem we're doing ACI and that our policies are going to be mapped to the constructs of the different Cloud providers. So for me what it means is I don't necessarily need to become specialized in how we're going to be operating inside of a Cloud we need to make sure that we get the proper policies built into the different products you know Cisco's branding it the Anywhere right? They have the HX Anywhere the ACI Anywhere and typically that's what we like about it is I can have one consistent set of skillsets and allow the people to use it one thing I found interesting about this week and it's not necessarily to do like more promotion for Cisco is like the Cloud First ACI right? So being able to be starting with ACI in the Cloud I found that was kind of interesting because when you know how the multi-site orchestrator works means apps you build out in the Cloud you're going to be able to to pull back in through the MSO and push it back on prem or anywhere in other Clouds afterwards so I found that was very intuitive of them to go to that route of allowing us to you know transparently migrate apps between sites. >> All right so Sebastien you're using a lot of the latest and greatest from Cisco you talk about the HX the ACI the CloudCenter Suite what advice do you give to your peers out there and they say you know I've used Cisco products for a long time Cisco makes great products but you know simplicity and management across the product lines was something that you know needed some work what does the Cisco of today look like you know what's working well? What still would you like to see them progress on? >> Well you know for us one of the things that was nice like I mentioned earlier is we're typically going greenfield so I didn't have a lot of the issues that other companies might be facing if they're trying to take their brownfield and actually make it into what we've built so my first advice would be if you're able to get the executive sponsorship to build a greenfield environment there's nothing in Cloud native applications that is you know symmetric with the traditional environment of a data center, it's completely different ways of working we have one week sprints we patch everything as it comes out if an application goes into the environment it needs to be functional with that patching cycle of almost every time we're at n or n-1 so, my thing is think about applications as being the center of what you actually need and not the infrastructure, let the infrastructure be what it is because you're going to be anywhere right? So that's one of the things I would say, from what you said about Cisco and the integration you were right, we have lived a couple of items like that in the last two years and a half, however I've noticed that these new software components like CloudShare and everything not necessarily the hardware part Cisco nails hardware like it works they've been doing it for years the thing is with these software teams they're very customer driven we have access to the engineers now I mean we've had meetings with the Canadian execs Roland Acra's team we were able to get access to the developers and the teams here in the US so, every company has challenges I would be lying if I told you that even at Intact we don't have silos and we don't have issues sometimes with different teams managing together but I feel as if at least for the technologies that we're using they've done good work for us to actually help us get through that. >> Well it's interesting Sebastian you bring that up because I look at you say okay, you've got a greenfield environment awesome, we can go do some new tech, well let's throw in there the DevOps and let's change all the other pieces you're like completely overhauling your environment how much of that were there some new team members that came in as part of that or you know I look people, process and technology sounded like you were taking it all on at once, did that work well? Would you have if you looked back would you have changed some of the ordering and maybe you know gotten one piece before the other or did it help to kind of you know start brand new start fresh and get everything going? >> Well I wouldn't redo the part of starting fresh however, it helped us get really good pace and work you know it's our first agile project as an infrastructure group so all of that was great learning experience the only thing I would say is you need to make sure your organization is ready for that level of change because it's one thing to have one VP sponsorship to actually build out this type of approach but where we struggled a little bit was afterwards getting the rest of our IT organization to kind of want to get onboard. because we are building something new, the traditional environment is not disappearing and we're telling our software engineering groups here's a new area where you can play in but you know typically I'd say that it's been well received we have not had the need to build new skillsets because we're doing infrastructure as code so typically a lot of the stuff we're building we're making sure it's automated so that way it's very nice and lean and when we build a new site we have a lot of automation already built in so we can properly just deploy so lessons learned like you've asked me I'd say that typically I'd probably do much of what I did the same way, but I would work a little bit more on the people area just to make sure that the message is clearly understood that what we're building is for the future of Intact and make sure that we spend a little bit more time managing that aspect because for the technology it's fine for the time it took and everything it's fine, it's really people the change is significant to most of them and when you've been doing something for a long time and someone comes up and disrupts it's like if we were disrupting our own company right? So typically I'd say, that would be something that I would say to people manage that properly or you will have a lot more work to do inside of that initiative to actually gain everybody's momentum and get them to be behind you. >> Well Sebastien I really appreciate you walking us through all of your transformation I want to just give you the final word sounds like you've got great access to Cisco really hope you're happy with what you've done final word is to you know your expectations coming into a show like this and you know what your take aways will be from Cisco Live 2019 in San Diego? >> Well outside from the amazing weather you mean or yeah? so you know typically I like the event I've been to other events before, like I said this is my first time at Cisco but what I've seen is that Cisco's really into getting their customers to understand their technology so they're really present so I really liked how you know we were given the opportunity to do hands on labs and actually learn new technologies so typically great experience coming here and great opportunities and thanks so much for having us. >> Well Sebastien Morissette congratulations to your team at Intact and thank you so much for sharing this story. >> Thank you so much. >> All right we've got a little bit more left here of three days wall to wall coverage Cisco Live 2019 in San Diego for Dave Vellante, Lisa Martin I'm Stu Miniman and thanks as always for watching theCUBE. 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