(upbeat music) >> The stampede to cloud and massive VC investments has led to the emergence of a new generation of object store based data lakes. And with them two important trends, actually three important trends. First, a new category that combines data lakes and data warehouses aka the lakehouse is emerged as a leading contender to be the data platform of the future. And this novelty touts the ability to address data engineering, data science, and data warehouse workloads on a single shared data platform. The other major trend we've seen is query engines and broader data fabric virtualization platforms have embraced NextGen data lakes as platforms for SQL centric business intelligence workloads, reducing, or somebody even claim eliminating the need for separate data warehouses. Pretty bold. However, cloud data warehouses have added complimentary technologies to bridge the gaps with lakehouses. And the third is many, if not most customers that are embracing the so-called data fabric or data mesh architectures. They're looking at data lakes as a fundamental component of their strategies, and they're trying to evolve them to be more capable, hence the interest in lakehouse, but at the same time, they don't want to, or can't abandon their data warehouse estate. As such we see a battle royale is brewing between cloud data warehouses and cloud lakehouses. Is it possible to do it all with one cloud center analytical data platform? Well, we're going to find out. My name is Dave Vellante and welcome to the data platform's power panel on theCUBE. Our next episode in a series where we gather some of the industry's top analysts to talk about one of our favorite topics, data. In today's session, we'll discuss trends, emerging options, and the trade offs of various approaches and we'll name names. Joining us today are Sanjeev Mohan, who's the principal at SanjMo, Tony Baers, principal at dbInsight. And Doug Henschen is the vice president and principal analyst at Constellation Research. Guys, welcome back to theCUBE. Great to see you again. >> Thank guys. Thank you. >> Thank you. >> So it's early June and we're gearing up with two major conferences, there's several database conferences, but two in particular that were very interested in, Snowflake Summit and Databricks Data and AI Summit. Doug let's start off with you and then Tony and Sanjeev, if you could kindly weigh in. Where did this all start, Doug? The notion of lakehouse. And let's talk about what exactly we mean by lakehouse. Go ahead. >> Yeah, well you nailed it in your intro. One platform to address BI data science, data engineering, fewer platforms, less cost, less complexity, very compelling. You can credit Databricks for coining the term lakehouse back in 2020, but it's really a much older idea. You can go back to Cloudera introducing their Impala database in 2012. That was a database on top of Hadoop. And indeed in that last decade, by the middle of that last decade, there were several SQL on Hadoop products, open standards like Apache Drill. And at the same time, the database vendors were trying to respond to this interest in machine learning and the data science. So they were adding SQL extensions, the likes Hudi and Vertical we're adding SQL extensions to support the data science. But then later in that decade with the shift to cloud and object storage, you saw the vendor shift to this whole cloud, and object storage idea. So you have in the database camp Snowflake introduce Snowpark to try to address the data science needs. They introduced that in 2020 and last year they announced support for Python. You also had Oracle, SAP jumped on this lakehouse idea last year, supporting both the lake and warehouse single vendor, not necessarily quite single platform. Google very recently also jumped on the bandwagon. And then you also mentioned, the SQL engine camp, the Dremios, the Ahanas, the Starbursts, really doing two things, a fabric for distributed access to many data sources, but also very firmly planning that idea that you can just have the lake and we'll help you do the BI workloads on that. And then of course, the data lake camp with the Databricks and Clouderas providing a warehouse style deployments on top of their lake platforms. >> Okay, thanks, Doug. I'd be remiss those of you who me know that I typically write my own intros. This time my colleagues fed me a lot of that material. So thank you. You guys make it easy. But Tony, give us your thoughts on this intro. >> Right. Well, I very much agree with both of you, which may not make for the most exciting television in terms of that it has been an evolution just like Doug said. I mean, for instance, just to give an example when Teradata bought AfterData was initially seen as a hardware platform play. In the end, it was basically, it was all those after functions that made a lot of sort of big data analytics accessible to SQL. (clears throat) And so what I really see just in a more simpler definition or functional definition, the data lakehouse is really an attempt by the data lake folks to make the data lake friendlier territory to the SQL folks, and also to get into friendly territory, to all the data stewards, who are basically concerned about the sprawl and the lack of control in governance in the data lake. So it's really kind of a continuing of an ongoing trend that being said, there's no action without counter action. And of course, at the other end of the spectrum, we also see a lot of the data warehouses starting to edit things like in database machine learning. So they're certainly not surrendering without a fight. Again, as Doug was mentioning, this has been part of a continual blending of platforms that we've seen over the years that we first saw in the Hadoop years with SQL on Hadoop and data warehouses starting to reach out to cloud storage or should say the HDFS and then with the cloud then going cloud native and therefore trying to break the silos down even further. >> Now, thank you. And Sanjeev, data lakes, when we first heard about them, there were such a compelling name, and then we realized all the problems associated with them. So pick it up from there. What would you add to Doug and Tony? >> I would say, these are excellent points that Doug and Tony have brought to light. The concept of lakehouse was going on to your point, Dave, a long time ago, long before the tone was invented. For example, in Uber, Uber was trying to do a mix of Hadoop and Vertical because what they really needed were transactional capabilities that Hadoop did not have. So they weren't calling it the lakehouse, they were using multiple technologies, but now they're able to collapse it into a single data store that we call lakehouse. Data lakes, excellent at batch processing large volumes of data, but they don't have the real time capabilities such as change data capture, doing inserts and updates. So this is why lakehouse has become so important because they give us these transactional capabilities. >> Great. So I'm interested, the name is great, lakehouse. The concept is powerful, but I get concerned that it's a lot of marketing hype behind it. So I want to examine that a bit deeper. How mature is the concept of lakehouse? Are there practical examples that really exist in the real world that are driving business results for practitioners? Tony, maybe you could kick that off. >> Well, put it this way. I think what's interesting is that both data lakes and data warehouse that each had to extend themselves. To believe the Databricks hype it's that this was just a natural extension of the data lake. In point of fact, Databricks had to go outside its core technology of Spark to make the lakehouse possible. And it's a very similar type of thing on the part with data warehouse folks, in terms of that they've had to go beyond SQL, In the case of Databricks. There have been a number of incremental improvements to Delta lake, to basically make the table format more performative, for instance. But the other thing, I think the most dramatic change in all that is in their SQL engine and they had to essentially pretty much abandon Spark SQL because it really, in off itself Spark SQL is essentially stop gap solution. And if they wanted to really address that crowd, they had to totally reinvent SQL or at least their SQL engine. And so Databricks SQL is not Spark SQL, it is not Spark, it's basically SQL that it's adapted to run in a Spark environment, but the underlying engine is C++, it's not scale or anything like that. So Databricks had to take a major detour outside of its core platform to do this. So to answer your question, this is not mature because these are all basically kind of, even though the idea of blending platforms has been going on for well over a decade, I would say that the current iteration is still fairly immature. And in the cloud, I could see a further evolution of this because if you think through cloud native architecture where you're essentially abstracting compute from data, there is no reason why, if let's say you are dealing with say, the same basically data targets say cloud storage, cloud object storage that you might not apportion the task to different compute engines. And so therefore you could have, for instance, let's say you're Google, you could have BigQuery, perform basically the types of the analytics, the SQL analytics that would be associated with the data warehouse and you could have BigQuery ML that does some in database machine learning, but at the same time for another part of the query, which might involve, let's say some deep learning, just for example, you might go out to let's say the serverless spark service or the data proc. And there's no reason why Google could not blend all those into a coherent offering that's basically all triggered through microservices. And I just gave Google as an example, if you could generalize that with all the other cloud or all the other third party vendors. So I think we're still very early in the game in terms of maturity of data lakehouses. >> Thanks, Tony. So Sanjeev, is this all hype? What are your thoughts? >> It's not hype, but completely agree. It's not mature yet. Lakehouses have still a lot of work to do, so what I'm now starting to see is that the world is dividing into two camps. On one hand, there are people who don't want to deal with the operational aspects of vast amounts of data. They are the ones who are going for BigQuery, Redshift, Snowflake, Synapse, and so on because they want the platform to handle all the data modeling, access control, performance enhancements, but these are trade off. If you go with these platforms, then you are giving up on vendor neutrality. On the other side are those who have engineering skills. They want the independence. In other words, they don't want vendor lock in. They want to transform their data into any number of use cases, especially data science, machine learning use case. What they want is agility via open file formats using any compute engine. So why do I say lakehouses are not mature? Well, cloud data warehouses they provide you an excellent user experience. That is the main reason why Snowflake took off. If you have thousands of cables, it takes minutes to get them started, uploaded into your warehouse and start experimentation. Table formats are far more resonating with the community than file formats. But once the cost goes up of cloud data warehouse, then the organization start exploring lakehouses. But the problem is lakehouses still need to do a lot of work on metadata. Apache Hive was a fantastic first attempt at it. Even today Apache Hive is still very strong, but it's all technical metadata and it has so many different restrictions. That's why we see Databricks is investing into something called Unity Catalog. Hopefully we'll hear more about Unity Catalog at the end of the month. But there's a second problem. I just want to mention, and that is lack of standards. All these open source vendors, they're running, what I call ego projects. You see on LinkedIn, they're constantly battling with each other, but end user doesn't care. End user wants a problem to be solved. They want to use Trino, Dremio, Spark from EMR, Databricks, Ahana, DaaS, Frink, Athena. But the problem is that we don't have common standards. >> Right. Thanks. So Doug, I worry sometimes. I mean, I look at the space, we've debated for years, best of breed versus the full suite. You see AWS with whatever, 12 different plus data stores and different APIs and primitives. You got Oracle putting everything into its database. It's actually done some interesting things with MySQL HeatWave, so maybe there's proof points there, but Snowflake really good at data warehouse, simplifying data warehouse. Databricks, really good at making lakehouses actually more functional. Can one platform do it all? >> Well in a word, I can't be best at breed at all things. I think the upshot of and cogen analysis from Sanjeev there, the database, the vendors coming out of the database tradition, they excel at the SQL. They're extending it into data science, but when it comes to unstructured data, data science, ML AI often a compromise, the data lake crowd, the Databricks and such. They've struggled to completely displace the data warehouse when it really gets to the tough SLAs, they acknowledge that there's still a role for the warehouse. Maybe you can size down the warehouse and offload some of the BI workloads and maybe and some of these SQL engines, good for ad hoc, minimize data movement. But really when you get to the deep service level, a requirement, the high concurrency, the high query workloads, you end up creating something that's warehouse like. >> Where do you guys think this market is headed? What's going to take hold? Which projects are going to fade away? You got some things in Apache projects like Hudi and Iceberg, where do they fit Sanjeev? Do you have any thoughts on that? >> So thank you, Dave. So I feel that table formats are starting to mature. There is a lot of work that's being done. We will not have a single product or single platform. We'll have a mixture. So I see a lot of Apache Iceberg in the news. Apache Iceberg is really innovating. Their focus is on a table format, but then Delta and Apache Hudi are doing a lot of deep engineering work. For example, how do you handle high concurrency when there are multiple rights going on? Do you version your Parquet files or how do you do your upcerts basically? So different focus, at the end of the day, the end user will decide what is the right platform, but we are going to have multiple formats living with us for a long time. >> Doug is Iceberg in your view, something that's going to address some of those gaps in standards that Sanjeev was talking about earlier? >> Yeah, Delta lake, Hudi, Iceberg, they all address this need for consistency and scalability, Delta lake open technically, but open for access. I don't hear about Delta lakes in any worlds, but Databricks, hearing a lot of buzz about Apache Iceberg. End users want an open performance standard. And most recently Google embraced Iceberg for its recent a big lake, their stab at having supporting both lakes and warehouses on one conjoined platform. >> And Tony, of course, you remember the early days of the sort of big data movement you had MapR was the most closed. You had Horton works the most open. You had Cloudera in between. There was always this kind of contest as to who's the most open. Does that matter? Are we going to see a repeat of that here? >> I think it's spheres of influence, I think, and Doug very much was kind of referring to this. I would call it kind of like the MongoDB syndrome, which is that you have... and I'm talking about MongoDB before they changed their license, open source project, but very much associated with MongoDB, which basically, pretty much controlled most of the contributions made decisions. And I think Databricks has the same iron cloud hold on Delta lake, but still the market is pretty much associated Delta lake as the Databricks, open source project. I mean, Iceberg is probably further advanced than Hudi in terms of mind share. And so what I see that's breaking down to is essentially, basically the Databricks open source versus the everything else open source, the community open source. So I see it's a very similar type of breakdown that I see repeating itself here. >> So by the way, Mongo has a conference next week, another data platform is kind of not really relevant to this discussion totally. But in the sense it is because there's a lot of discussion on earnings calls these last couple of weeks about consumption and who's exposed, obviously people are concerned about Snowflake's consumption model. Mongo is maybe less exposed because Atlas is prominent in the portfolio, blah, blah, blah. But I wanted to bring up the little bit of controversy that we saw come out of the Snowflake earnings call, where the ever core analyst asked Frank Klutman about discretionary spend. And Frank basically said, look, we're not discretionary. We are deeply operationalized. Whereas he kind of poo-pooed the lakehouse or the data lake, et cetera, saying, oh yeah, data scientists will pull files out and play with them. That's really not our business. Do any of you have comments on that? Help us swing through that controversy. Who wants to take that one? >> Let's put it this way. The SQL folks are from Venus and the data scientists are from Mars. So it means it really comes down to it, sort that type of perception. The fact is, is that, traditionally with analytics, it was very SQL oriented and that basically the quants were kind of off in their corner, where they're using SaaS or where they're using Teradata. It's really a great leveler today, which is that, I mean basic Python it's become arguably one of the most popular programming languages, depending on what month you're looking at, at the title index. And of course, obviously SQL is, as I tell the MongoDB folks, SQL is not going away. You have a large skills base out there. And so basically I see this breaking down to essentially, you're going to have each group that's going to have its own natural preferences for its home turf. And the fact that basically, let's say the Python and scale of folks are using Databricks does not make them any less operational or machine critical than the SQL folks. >> Anybody else want to chime in on that one? >> Yeah, I totally agree with that. Python support in Snowflake is very nascent with all of Snowpark, all of the things outside of SQL, they're very much relying on partners too and make things possible and make data science possible. And it's very early days. I think the bottom line, what we're going to see is each of these camps is going to keep working on doing better at the thing that they don't do today, or they're new to, but they're not going to nail it. They're not going to be best of breed on both sides. So the SQL centric companies and shops are going to do more data science on their database centric platform. That data science driven companies might be doing more BI on their leagues with those vendors and the companies that have highly distributed data, they're going to add fabrics, and maybe offload more of their BI onto those engines, like Dremio and Starburst. >> So I've asked you this before, but I'll ask you Sanjeev. 'Cause Snowflake and Databricks are such great examples 'cause you have the data engineering crowd trying to go into data warehousing and you have the data warehousing guys trying to go into the lake territory. Snowflake has $5 billion in the balance sheet and I've asked you before, I ask you again, doesn't there has to be a semantic layer between these two worlds? Does Snowflake go out and do M&A and maybe buy ad scale or a data mirror? Or is that just sort of a bandaid? What are your thoughts on that Sanjeev? >> I think semantic layer is the metadata. The business metadata is extremely important. At the end of the day, the business folks, they'd rather go to the business metadata than have to figure out, for example, like let's say, I want to update somebody's email address and we have a lot of overhead with data residency laws and all that. I want my platform to give me the business metadata so I can write my business logic without having to worry about which database, which location. So having that semantic layer is extremely important. In fact, now we are taking it to the next level. Now we are saying that it's not just a semantic layer, it's all my KPIs, all my calculations. So how can I make those calculations independent of the compute engine, independent of the BI tool and make them fungible. So more disaggregation of the stack, but it gives us more best of breed products that the customers have to worry about. >> So I want to ask you about the stack, the modern data stack, if you will. And we always talk about injecting machine intelligence, AI into applications, making them more data driven. But when you look at the application development stack, it's separate, the database is tends to be separate from the data and analytics stack. Do those two worlds have to come together in the modern data world? And what does that look like organizationally? >> So organizationally even technically I think it is starting to happen. Microservices architecture was a first attempt to bring the application and the data world together, but they are fundamentally different things. For example, if an application crashes, that's horrible, but Kubernetes will self heal and it'll bring the application back up. But if a database crashes and corrupts your data, we have a huge problem. So that's why they have traditionally been two different stacks. They are starting to come together, especially with data ops, for instance, versioning of the way we write business logic. It used to be, a business logic was highly embedded into our database of choice, but now we are disaggregating that using GitHub, CICD the whole DevOps tool chain. So data is catching up to the way applications are. >> We also have databases, that trans analytical databases that's a little bit of what the story is with MongoDB next week with adding more analytical capabilities. But I think companies that talk about that are always careful to couch it as operational analytics, not the warehouse level workloads. So we're making progress, but I think there's always going to be, or there will long be a separate analytical data platform. >> Until data mesh takes over. (all laughing) Not opening a can of worms. >> Well, but wait, I know it's out of scope here, but wouldn't data mesh say, hey, do take your best of breed to Doug's earlier point. You can't be best of breed at everything, wouldn't data mesh advocate, data lakes do your data lake thing, data warehouse, do your data lake, then you're just a node on the mesh. (Tony laughs) Now you need separate data stores and you need separate teams. >> To my point. >> I think, I mean, put it this way. (laughs) Data mesh itself is a logical view of the world. The data mesh is not necessarily on the lake or on the warehouse. I think for me, the fear there is more in terms of, the silos of governance that could happen and the silo views of the world, how we redefine. And that's why and I want to go back to something what Sanjeev said, which is that it's going to be raising the importance of the semantic layer. Now does Snowflake that opens a couple of Pandora's boxes here, which is one, does Snowflake dare go into that space or do they risk basically alienating basically their partner ecosystem, which is a key part of their whole appeal, which is best of breed. They're kind of the same situation that Informatica was where in the early 2000s, when Informatica briefly flirted with analytic applications and realized that was not a good idea, need to redouble down on their core, which was data integration. The other thing though, that raises the importance of and this is where the best of breed comes in, is the data fabric. My contention is that and whether you use employee data mesh practice or not, if you do employee data mesh, you need data fabric. If you deploy data fabric, you don't necessarily need to practice data mesh. But data fabric at its core and admittedly it's a category that's still very poorly defined and evolving, but at its core, we're talking about a common meta data back plane, something that we used to talk about with master data management, this would be something that would be more what I would say basically, mutable, that would be more evolving, basically using, let's say, machine learning to kind of, so that we don't have to predefine rules or predefine what the world looks like. But so I think in the long run, what this really means is that whichever way we implement on whichever physical platform we implement, we need to all be speaking the same metadata language. And I think at the end of the day, regardless of whether it's a lake, warehouse or a lakehouse, we need common metadata. >> Doug, can I come back to something you pointed out? That those talking about bringing analytic and transaction databases together, you had talked about operationalizing those and the caution there. Educate me on MySQL HeatWave. I was surprised when Oracle put so much effort in that, and you may or may not be familiar with it, but a lot of folks have talked about that. Now it's got nowhere in the market, that no market share, but a lot of we've seen these benchmarks from Oracle. How real is that bringing together those two worlds and eliminating ETL? >> Yeah, I have to defer on that one. That's my colleague, Holger Mueller. He wrote the report on that. He's way deep on it and I'm not going to mock him. >> I wonder if that is something, how real that is or if it's just Oracle marketing, anybody have any thoughts on that? >> I'm pretty familiar with HeatWave. It's essentially Oracle doing what, I mean, there's kind of a parallel with what Google's doing with AlloyDB. It's an operational database that will have some embedded analytics. And it's also something which I expect to start seeing with MongoDB. And I think basically, Doug and Sanjeev were kind of referring to this before about basically kind of like the operational analytics, that are basically embedded within an operational database. The idea here is that the last thing you want to do with an operational database is slow it down. So you're not going to be doing very complex deep learning or anything like that, but you might be doing things like classification, you might be doing some predictives. In other words, we've just concluded a transaction with this customer, but was it less than what we were expecting? What does that mean in terms of, is this customer likely to turn? I think we're going to be seeing a lot of that. And I think that's what a lot of what MySQL HeatWave is all about. Whether Oracle has any presence in the market now it's still a pretty new announcement, but the other thing that kind of goes against Oracle, (laughs) that they had to battle against is that even though they own MySQL and run the open source project, everybody else, in terms of the actual commercial implementation it's associated with everybody else. And the popular perception has been that MySQL has been basically kind of like a sidelight for Oracle. And so it's on Oracles shoulders to prove that they're damn serious about it. >> There's no coincidence that MariaDB was launched the day that Oracle acquired Sun. Sanjeev, I wonder if we could come back to a topic that we discussed earlier, which is this notion of consumption, obviously Wall Street's very concerned about it. Snowflake dropped prices last week. I've always felt like, hey, the consumption model is the right model. I can dial it down in when I need to, of course, the street freaks out. What are your thoughts on just pricing, the consumption model? What's the right model for companies, for customers? >> Consumption model is here to stay. What I would like to see, and I think is an ideal situation and actually plays into the lakehouse concept is that, I have my data in some open format, maybe it's Parquet or CSV or JSON, Avro, and I can bring whatever engine is the best engine for my workloads, bring it on, pay for consumption, and then shut it down. And by the way, that could be Cloudera. We don't talk about Cloudera very much, but it could be one business unit wants to use Athena. Another business unit wants to use some other Trino let's say or Dremio. So every business unit is working on the same data set, see that's critical, but that data set is maybe in their VPC and they bring any compute engine, you pay for the use, shut it down. That then you're getting value and you're only paying for consumption. It's not like, I left a cluster running by mistake, so there have to be guardrails. The reason FinOps is so big is because it's very easy for me to run a Cartesian joint in the cloud and get a $10,000 bill. >> This looks like it's been a sort of a victim of its own success in some ways, they made it so easy to spin up single note instances, multi note instances. And back in the day when compute was scarce and costly, those database engines optimized every last bit so they could get as much workload as possible out of every instance. Today, it's really easy to spin up a new node, a new multi node cluster. So that freedom has meant many more nodes that aren't necessarily getting that utilization. So Snowflake has been doing a lot to add reporting, monitoring, dashboards around the utilization of all the nodes and multi node instances that have spun up. And meanwhile, we're seeing some of the traditional on-prem databases that are moving into the cloud, trying to offer that freedom. And I think they're going to have that same discovery that the cost surprises are going to follow as they make it easy to spin up new instances. >> Yeah, a lot of money went into this market over the last decade, separating compute from storage, moving to the cloud. I'm glad you mentioned Cloudera Sanjeev, 'cause they got it all started, the kind of big data movement. We don't talk about them that much. Sometimes I wonder if it's because when they merged Hortonworks and Cloudera, they dead ended both platforms, but then they did invest in a more modern platform. But what's the future of Cloudera? What are you seeing out there? >> Cloudera has a good product. I have to say the problem in our space is that there're way too many companies, there's way too much noise. We are expecting the end users to parse it out or we expecting analyst firms to boil it down. So I think marketing becomes a big problem. As far as technology is concerned, I think Cloudera did turn their selves around and Tony, I know you, you talked to them quite frequently. I think they have quite a comprehensive offering for a long time actually. They've created Kudu, so they got operational, they have Hadoop, they have an operational data warehouse, they're migrated to the cloud. They are in hybrid multi-cloud environment. Lot of cloud data warehouses are not hybrid. They're only in the cloud. >> Right. I think what Cloudera has done the most successful has been in the transition to the cloud and the fact that they're giving their customers more OnRamps to it, more hybrid OnRamps. So I give them a lot of credit there. They're also have been trying to position themselves as being the most price friendly in terms of that we will put more guardrails and governors on it. I mean, part of that could be spin. But on the other hand, they don't have the same vested interest in compute cycles as say, AWS would have with EMR. That being said, yes, Cloudera does it, I think its most powerful appeal so of that, it almost sounds in a way, I don't want to cast them as a legacy system. But the fact is they do have a huge landed legacy on-prem and still significant potential to land and expand that to the cloud. That being said, even though Cloudera is multifunction, I think it certainly has its strengths and weaknesses. And the fact this is that yes, Cloudera has an operational database or an operational data store with a kind of like the outgrowth of age base, but Cloudera is still based, primarily known for the deep analytics, the operational database nobody's going to buy Cloudera or Cloudera data platform strictly for the operational database. They may use it as an add-on, just in the same way that a lot of customers have used let's say Teradata basically to do some machine learning or let's say, Snowflake to parse through JSON. Again, it's not an indictment or anything like that, but the fact is obviously they do have their strengths and their weaknesses. I think their greatest opportunity is with their existing base because that base has a lot invested and vested. And the fact is they do have a hybrid path that a lot of the others lack. >> And of course being on the quarterly shock clock was not a good place to be under the microscope for Cloudera and now they at least can refactor the business accordingly. I'm glad you mentioned hybrid too. We saw Snowflake last month, did a deal with Dell whereby non-native Snowflake data could access on-prem object store from Dell. They announced a similar thing with pure storage. What do you guys make of that? Is that just... How significant will that be? Will customers actually do that? I think they're using either materialized views or extended tables. >> There are data rated and residency requirements. There are desires to have these platforms in your own data center. And finally they capitulated, I mean, Frank Klutman is famous for saying to be very focused and earlier, not many months ago, they called the going on-prem as a distraction, but clearly there's enough demand and certainly government contracts any company that has data residency requirements, it's a real need. So they finally addressed it. >> Yeah, I'll bet dollars to donuts, there was an EBC session and some big customer said, if you don't do this, we ain't doing business with you. And that was like, okay, we'll do it. >> So Dave, I have to say, earlier on you had brought this point, how Frank Klutman was poo-pooing data science workloads. On your show, about a year or so ago, he said, we are never going to on-prem. He burnt that bridge. (Tony laughs) That was on your show. >> I remember exactly the statement because it was interesting. He said, we're never going to do the halfway house. And I think what he meant is we're not going to bring the Snowflake architecture to run on-prem because it defeats the elasticity of the cloud. So this was kind of a capitulation in a way. But I think it still preserves his original intent sort of, I don't know. >> The point here is that every vendor will poo-poo whatever they don't have until they do have it. >> Yes. >> And then it'd be like, oh, we are all in, we've always been doing this. We have always supported this and now we are doing it better than others. >> Look, it was the same type of shock wave that we felt basically when AWS at the last moment at one of their reinvents, oh, by the way, we're going to introduce outposts. And the analyst group is typically pre briefed about a week or two ahead under NDA and that was not part of it. And when they dropped, they just casually dropped that in the analyst session. It's like, you could have heard the sound of lots of analysts changing their diapers at that point. >> (laughs) I remember that. And a props to Andy Jassy who once, many times actually told us, never say never when it comes to AWS. So guys, I know we got to run. We got some hard stops. Maybe you could each give us your final thoughts, Doug start us off and then-- >> Sure. Well, we've got the Snowflake Summit coming up. I'll be looking for customers that are really doing data science, that are really employing Python through Snowflake, through Snowpark. And then a couple weeks later, we've got Databricks with their Data and AI Summit in San Francisco. I'll be looking for customers that are really doing considerable BI workloads. Last year I did a market overview of this analytical data platform space, 14 vendors, eight of them claim to support lakehouse, both sides of the camp, Databricks customer had 32, their top customer that they could site was unnamed. It had 32 concurrent users doing 15,000 queries per hour. That's good but it's not up to the most demanding BI SQL workloads. And they acknowledged that and said, they need to keep working that. Snowflake asked for their biggest data science customer, they cited Kabura, 400 terabytes, 8,500 users, 400,000 data engineering jobs per day. I took the data engineering job to be probably SQL centric, ETL style transformation work. So I want to see the real use of the Python, how much Snowpark has grown as a way to support data science. >> Great. Tony. >> Actually of all things. And certainly, I'll also be looking for similar things in what Doug is saying, but I think sort of like, kind of out of left field, I'm interested to see what MongoDB is going to start to say about operational analytics, 'cause I mean, they're into this conquer the world strategy. We can be all things to all people. Okay, if that's the case, what's going to be a case with basically, putting in some inline analytics, what are you going to be doing with your query engine? So that's actually kind of an interesting thing we're looking for next week. >> Great. Sanjeev. >> So I'll be at MongoDB world, Snowflake and Databricks and very interested in seeing, but since Tony brought up MongoDB, I see that even the databases are shifting tremendously. They are addressing both the hashtag use case online, transactional and analytical. I'm also seeing that these databases started in, let's say in case of MySQL HeatWave, as relational or in MongoDB as document, but now they've added graph, they've added time series, they've added geospatial and they just keep adding more and more data structures and really making these databases multifunctional. So very interesting. >> It gets back to our discussion of best of breed, versus all in one. And it's likely Mongo's path or part of their strategy of course, is through developers. They're very developer focused. So we'll be looking for that. And guys, I'll be there as well. I'm hoping that we maybe have some extra time on theCUBE, so please stop by and we can maybe chat a little bit. Guys as always, fantastic. Thank you so much, Doug, Tony, Sanjeev, and let's do this again. >> It's been a pleasure. >> All right and thank you for watching. This is Dave Vellante for theCUBE and the excellent analyst. We'll see you next time. (upbeat music)

>>from around the globe. It's the Cube with digital coverage of AWS reinvent 2020 sponsored by Intel AWS and our community partners. Welcome everyone to the Cube virtual and our coverage of the Accenture Executive Summit, which is part of AWS reinvent 2020. I'm your host Rebecca Knight. Today we're talking about the green Cloud and joining me is Kishore Dirk. He is Accenture Senior Managing director Cloud First Global Services lead. Thank you so much for coming on the show Key Shore. >>Nice to meet you, Rebecca. >>Great to have you. Yeah. So I want to start by asking you what it is that we mean when we say green cloud. We know the sustainability is a business imperative. So many organizations around the world are committing to responsible innovation lowering carbon emissions. But what does this? What does it? What does it mean when they talk about cloud from a sustainability perspective? >>E think it's about responsible innovation. Green Cloud is a thoughtful cloud first approach that helps boost profits and benefit the clients for helping reduce carbon emissions. Think about it this way. And you have a large number of data centers and each of these data centers are increasing by 14% every year, and this double digit growth comes with the price of Becca. What you're seeing is these global data centers consume a lot of power on the consumption is nearly pull into the consumption of a country like Spain. So the magnitude off the problem that is out there and and how do we pursue a green approach if you look at this hour? Accenture Analysis In terms of the migrations to public crowd, we have seen that we can reduce that by 59 million tons of CO two per year and with just the 5.9% reduction in top lighting emissions. And he creates this toe 22 million cars off the road. And the magnitude of reduction can go a long way. Meeting climate change commitments, particularly poor data sensitive businesses. >>Wow, that's incredible. What you're the numbers that you're putting forward are absolutely mind blowing. So how does it work? Is it a simple cloud migration? So, you know, >>when companies begin their cloud journey and and then they confront off with them a lot of questions. The decision to make uh, in this particular element sustainable in their solution and benefits. They drive and they had to make vice choices. And then they will gain unprecedented level of innovation, leading to both greener planet as well as a a green of balance sheet. I would say eso effectively. It's all about ambition. Greater the ambition, greater the reduction in carbon emissions. So from a cloud migration perspective, we look at it as a simple solution with approaches and sustainability. Benefits are that very based on things. It's about selecting the right cloud provider, very carbon thoughtful provider and the first step towards a sustainable cloud journey. And here we're looking at clown operators. You know, obviously they have different corporate commitments towards sustainability and that determines how they plan, how they build their the data centers, how they our and consume connections that operate there and how they retire their data centers. Then, uh, the next element that you want to do is how do you build it? Ambition, You know, for some of the companies, on average on Prem drives about 65% energy reduction and the carbon emission reduction of about 84% which is kind of OK and good I would say, But then, if you could go up to 98% by configuring applications to the cloud, that is significant benefit for for the world. And obviously it's a greener cloud that we're talking about. And then the question is, How far can you go? And, you know, obviously the companies have to unlock greater financial, societal environmental benefits. And essential has this cloud based circular operations and sustainable products and services that that you bring into play. So it's a It's a very thoughtful, broader approach that we're bringing and in terms off just a simple concept off migration s. >>So we know that in the covert era, shifting to the cloud has really become a business imperative. How is Accenture working with its clients at a time when all of this movement has been accelerated? How do you partner and what is your approach in terms of helping them with their migrations? >>Yeah, I mean, let me talk a little bit about the pandemic and the crisis that is there today, and and if you really look at that in terms of how your partner with a lot of our clients in terms of the cloud first approach. I'll give you a couple of examples. We've worked with Rolls Royce, McClaren, DHL and others as part of the ventilator UK Charon Consortium again to, uh, coordinate production of medical ventilators urgently needed for the UK Health Service. Many of these firms have taken similar initiatives in terms off, you know, from perfume manufacturers hand sanitizers. And to answer it is, is and again leading passion levels, making BP and again at the U. N. General Assembly. We launched the end to end integration Guy that helps company essentially to have a sustainable development goes. And that's how we're parting at a very large scale. Andi, if you really look at how we work with our clients and what's Accenture's role there? Uh, you know, from in terms of our clients, you know there are multiple steps that we look at. One is about planning, building, deploying and managing an optimal green color solution. And Accenture has this concept off helping clients for the platform to kind of achieve that goal. And here we're having. We're having a platform called Minor, which has a model called Green Clad Advisor, and this is the capability that helps you provide optimal green cloud, you know, a business case and obviously blueprint for each of our clients. And right from the start in terms off, how do we complete lower migration recommendation toe on improve solution accuracy to obviously bringing in the end to end perspective? You know, with this green clad adviser capability, we're helping our clients capture what we call it the carbon footprint for existing data centers and provide, uh, I would say the current cloud C 02 emissions core that you know, obviously helps them with carbon credits that can further their green agenda. So essentially, this is about recommending a green index score reducing carbon footprint for migration, migrating for green a cloud. And it really look at how accentuate itself is practicing. What we preached. 95% of the applications are in the cloud, and this migration has helped us. Uh, toe lied to about $42.5 million in benefit and in the third year, and and another three million analyzed costs that are saved through rightsizing service consumption. So it's a very broad umbrella and a footprint in terms of having engage societally with the U. N our clients. And what is it that we exactly bring to our clients in solving a specific problem? >>Accenture isn't is walking the walk as you say? >>Yes, So that that is that we we practice what we preach, and that is something that we take it to heart. We want toe have a responsible business and we want to practice it. And we want to advise our clients around that >>you are your own use case, and so they they know they can take your advice. So talk a little bit about the global, the cooperation that's needed. We know that conquering this pandemic is going to take a coordinated global effort and talk a little bit about the great reset initiative. First of all, what is that? Why don't we? Why don't we start there? And then we could delve into it a little bit more. >>Okay, so before we get to how we're cooperating, the great recent initiative is about improving the state of the world, and it's about a group of global stakeholders cooperating to simultaneously manage the direct consequences of their Cohen 19 prices andan spirit of this cooperation that you're seeing during Court 19 which will obviously either toe post pandemic project will the worth pressing issues. As I say, we're increasing companies to realize combined potential of technology and sustainable impact, to use enterprise solutions to address with urgency and scale and obviously multiple challenges that are facing our world. One of the ways that you're increasing, uh, companies to reach their Venus cloud with extensions cloud strategy is to build a solid foundation that is resilient. I would prefer to faster to the current as well as future times. Now, when you think of Cloud as the foundation that drives the digital transformation, it's about scale, speed, streamlining your operations and obviously reducing costs. And and as these businesses sees the construct of cloud first, they must remain obviously responsible and trusted. Now think about this right as part of our analysis that profitability can co exist with responsible and sustainable practices. Let's say that on the data centers migrated from on from the cloud based, we estimate, you know, that would reduce carbon emissions globally by 60 million tons for years. Andi, think about it this way, right? Easier Metric will be taking out 22 million cars off the road Thea Other examples that you've seen right in terms off the NHS work that they're doing in UK to build, uh, you know, a Microsoft teams were in based integration and the platform he rolled out for 1.2 million in it. Just users Onda. About 16,000 users there were able to secure instant messages, you know, obviously complete audio video calls and host working meetings across England. So this this work that we did with NHS is is something that we're collaborating with a lot of fools and powering businesses, not marriage. >>Well, you're vividly describing the business case for sustainability. What do you see as the future of cloud when thinking about it through this lens of sustainability and also going back to what you were talking about in terms of how you are helping your fostering cooperation within these organizations? >>That's a very good question, because so if you look at today, right, businesses are obviously environmentally aware, and they are expanding efforts to decrease power consumption, carbon emissions, and they want to run a sustainable operational efficiency across all elements of the business. And this is an increasing trend. And there is that option off energy efficient infrastructure in the global market. And this trend is the cloud. First thinking and with the right cloud migration that we've been discussing is what unlocking new opportunity, like clean energy transitions enabled, enabled by cloud based geographic analysis, material based reductions and better data insights. And this is something that, well, we'll drive with obviously faster analytics platform that is out there now. The sustainability is actually the future of business, which is companies that have historically different the financial security or agility benefits to cloud. Now sustainability becomes an imperative for them and our own experience. Accenture's experience with cloud migrations We have seen 30 to 40% total cost of ownership savings on its driving. Ah, greater workloads, flexibility, better service, somebody utilization and obviously more energy efficient public clouds that cost obviously well, that that drive a lot of these enterprise own data centers. So in our view, what we're seeing is that this this, uh, sustainable cloud position helps helps companies to a drive a lot of the goals, in addition to their financial and other goals. >>So what should organizations who are who are watching this interview and saying, Hey, I need to know more. What do you recommend to them and what? Where should they go to get more information on Green Cloud. >>You know, if you're if you're a business leader and you're thinking about which cloud provider is good, how should applications be modernized to meet our day to day needs Which cloud driven innovation should be priorities? Uh, you know, that's why Accenture, uh, from the Cloud First organization and essentially to provide the whole stack of cloud services to help our clients become a cloud first business. You know, it's all about exhibition. The digital transformation innovating faster, creating differentiated and sustainable value for our clients. And we're powering it up with 70,000 cloud professionals, $3 billion investment and bringing together unmasked depth and breadth of cloud services for our clients in terms of plant solutions and obviously the ecosystem partnership that we have that we're seeing today, Andi assets that help our clients realize that goes on and again toe do reach out to us way can help them to two men, obviously an optimal, sustainable cloud for solution that meets the business needs and being unprecedented levels of innovation. Our experience will be an advantage. And now more than ever, Rebecca. >>So just closing us out here, Do you have any advice for these companies who are navigating a great deal of uncertainty? We What? What do you think? The next 12 to 24 months. What do you think that should be on the minds of CEOs as they go >>forward. So as CEOs are thinking about rapidly leveraging cloud migrating to cloud off, one of the elements that we want them to be thoughtful about is can they do that with unprecedented level of innovation, but also build a greener planet and a greener balance sheet? If we can achieve this balance and and kind off have, ah, have, ah, world, which is greener. I think the world will win and we all along with extension of clients, will win. That's what I will say, Rebecca. >>That is an optimistic outlook, and I will take it. Thank you so much. Key shore for coming on the show. >>Thank you so much. >>That was Accenture's Key Shore. Dirk Rebecca. Night. Stay tuned for more of the Cube virtual coverage of the Accenture Executive Summit

>>live >>from Denver, Colorado. It's the Q covering com vault Go 2019. Brought to you by combo. >>Hey, welcome to the Cube. Lisa Martin in Colorado for CONMEBOL Go 19. Statement. A man is with me this week, and we are pleased to welcome one of combos, longtime customers from the University of Leicester. We have Mark Penny, the systems specialist in infrastructure. Mark. Welcome to the Cube. >>Hi. It's good to be here. >>So you have been a convo customer at the UNI for nearly 10 years now, just giving folks an idea of about the union got 51 different academic departments about five research institutes. Cool research going on, by the way and between staff and students. About 20,000 folks, I'm sure all bringing multiple devices onto the campus. So talk to us about you came on board in 20 ton. It's hard to believe that was almost 10 years ago and said, All right, guys, we really got to get a strategy around back up, talk to us about way back then what? You guys were doing what you saw as an opportunity. What you're doing with combo today, a >>time and the There's a wide range of backup for us. There was no really assurance that we were getting back up. So we had a bit of convert seven that was backing up the Windows infrastructure. There was tyranny storage manager backing up a lot of Linux. And there was Amanda and open source thing. And then there was a LL sorts of scripts and things. So, for instance, of'em where backups were done by creating an array snapshot with the script, then mounting that script into that snapshot into another server backing up the server with calm bolt on the restore process is an absolute takes here. It was very, very difficult, long winded, required a lot of time on the checks. For this, it really was quite quite difficult to run it. Use a lot of stuff. Time we were, as far as the corporate side was concerned it exclusively on tape resource manager, we're using disc. Amanda was again for tape in a different, completely isolated system. Coupled with this, there had been a lack of investment in the data centers themselves, so the network hadn't really got a lot of throughput. This men that way were using data private backup networks in order to keep back up data off the production networks because there was really challenges over bandwidth contention backups on. So consider it over around and so on. If you got a back up coming into the working day defect student So Way started with a blank sheet of paper in many respects on went out to see what was available on Dhe. There was the usual ones it with the net back up, typically obviously again on convert Arc Serve has. But what was really interesting was deed Implication was starting to come in, But at the time, convo tonight just be released, and it had an absolutely killer feature for us, which was client side duplication. This men that we could now get rid of most of this private backup network that was making a lot of complex ISI. So it also did backup disk on back up to tape. So at that point, way went in with six Media agents. Way had a few 100 terabytes of disk storage. The strategy was to keep 28 days on disk and then the long term retention on tape into a tape library. WeII kept back through it about 2013 then took the decision. Disc was working, so let's just do disco only on save a whole load of effort. In even with a take life, you've got to refresh the tapes and things. So give it all on disk with D Duplication way, basically getting a 1 to 1. So if we had take my current figures about 1.5 petabytes of front side protected data, we've got about 1.5 petabytes in the back up system, which, because of all the synthetic fools and everything, we've got 12 months retention. We've got 28 days retention. It works really, really well in that and that that relationship, almost 1 to 1 with what's in the back up with all the attention with plants like data, has been fairly consistent since we went all disc >>mark. I wonder if you'd actually step back a second and talks about the role in importance of data in your organization because way went through a lot of the bits and bytes in that is there. But as a research organization, you know, I expect that data is, you know, quite a strategic component of the data >>forms your intellectual property. It's what is caught your research. It's the output of your investigations. So where were doing Earth Operational science. So we get data from satellites and that is then brought down roars time, little files. They then get a data set, which will consist of multiple packages of these, these vials and maybe even different measurements from different satellites that then combined and could be used to model scenarios climate change, temperature or pollution. All these types of things coming in. It's how you then take that raw data work with it. In our case, we use a lot of HPC haIf of computing to manipulate that data. And a lot of it is how smart researchers are in getting their code getting the maximum out of that data on. Then the output of that becomes a paper project on dhe finalized final set of of date, which is the results, which all goes with paper. We've also done the a lot of genetics and things like that because the DNA fingerprinting with Alec Jeffrey on what was very interesting with that one is how it was those techniques which then identified the bones that were dug up under the car park in Leicester, which is Richard >>Wright documentary. >>Yeah, on that really was quite exciting. The way that well do you really was quite. It's quite fitting, really, techniques that the university has discovered, which were then instrumental in identifying that. >>What? One of the interesting things I found in this part of the market is used to talk about just protecting my data. Yeah, a lot of times now it's about howto. Why leverage my data even Maur. How do I share my data? How do I extract more value out of the data in the 10 years you've been working with calm Boulder? Are you seeing that journey? Is that yes, the organization's going down. >>There's almost there's actually two conflicting things here because researchers love to share their data. But some of the data sets is so big that can be quite challenging. Some of the data sets. We take other people's Day to bring it in, combining with our own to do our own modeling. Then that goes out to provide some more for somebody else on. There's also issues about where data could exist, so there's a lot of very strict controls about the N. H s data. So health data, which so n hs England that can't then go out to Scotland on Booth. Sometimes the regulatory compliance almost gets sidelines with the excitement about research on way have quite a dichotomy of making sure that where we know about the data, that the appropriate controls are there and we understand it on Hopefully, people just don't go on, put it somewhere. It's not because some of the data sets for medical research, given the data which has got personal, identifiable information in it, that then has to be stripped out. So you've got an anonymous data set which they can then work with it Z assuring that the right data used the right information to remove so that you don't inadvertently go and then expose stuff s. So it's not just pure research on it going in this silo and in this silo it's actually ensuring that you've got the right bits in the right place, and it's being handled correctly >>to talk to us about has you know, as you pointed out, this massive growth and data volumes from a university perspective, health data perspective research perspective, the files are getting bigger and bigger In the time that you've started this foundation with combo in the last 9 10 years. Tremendous changes not just and data, but talking about complaints you've now got GDP are to deal with. Give us a perspective and snapshot of your of your con vault implementation and how you've evolved that as all the data changes, compliance changes and converts, technology has evolved. So if you take >>where we started off, we had a few 100 petabytes of disk. It's just before we migrated. Thio on Premise three Cloud Libraries That point. I think I got 2.1 petabytes of backup. Storage on the volume of data is exponentially growing covers the resolution of the instruments increases, so you can certainly have a four fold growth data that some of those are quite interesting things. They when I first joined the great excitement with a project which has just noticed Betty Colombo, which is the Mercury a year for in space agency to Demeter Mercury and they wanted 50 terabytes and way at that time, that was actually quite a big number way. We're thinking, well, we make the split. What? We need to be careful. Yes. Okay. 50 terrorizes that over the life of project. And now that's probably just to get us going. Not much actually happened with it. And then storage system changed and they still had their 50 terabytes with almost nothing in it way then understood that the spacecraft being launched and that once it had been launched, which was earlier this year, it was going to take a couple of years before the first data came back. Because it has to go to Venus. It has to go around Venus in the wrong direction, against gravity to slow it down. Then it goes to Mercury and the rial bolt data then starts coming back in. You'd have thought going to Mercury was dead easy. You just go boom straight in. But actually, if you did that because of gravity of the sun, it would just go in. You'd never stop. Just go straight into the sun. You lose your spacecraft. >>Nobody wants >>another. Eggs are really interesting. Is artfully Have you heard of the guy? A satellite? >>Yes. >>This is the one which is mapping a 1,000,000,000 stars in the Milky Way. It's now gone past its primary mission, and it's got most of that data. Huge data sets on DDE That data, there's, ah, it's already being worked on, but they are the university Thio task, packaging it and cleansing it. We're going to get a set of that data we're going to host. We're currently hosting a national HPC facility, which is for space research that's being replaced with an even bigger, more powerful one. Little probably fill one of our data centers completely. It's about 40 racks worth, and that's just to process that data because there's so much information that's come from it. And it's It's the resolution. It's the speed with which it can be computed on holding so much in memory. I mean, if you take across our current HPC systems, we've got 100 terabytes of memory across two systems, and those numbers were just unthinkable even 10 years ago, a terrible of memory. >>So Mark Lease and I would like to keep you here all way to talk about space, Mark todo of our favorite topics. But before we get towards the end, but a lot of changes, that combo, it's the whole new executive team they bought Hedvig. They land lost this metallic dot io. They've got new things. It's a longtime customer. What your viewpoint on com bold today and what what you've been seeing quite interesting to >>see how convoy has evolved on dhe. These change, which should have happened between 10 and 11 when they took the decision on the next generation platform that it would be this by industry. Sand is quite an aggressive pace of service packs, which are then come out onto this schedule. And to be fair, that schedule is being stuck to waken plan ahead. We know what's happening on Dhe. It's interesting that they're both patches and the new features and stuff, and it's really great to have that line to work, too. Now, Andi way with platform now supports natively stone Much stuff. And this was actually one of the decisions which took us around using our own on Prem Estimate Cloud Library. We were using as you to put a tear on data off site on with All is working Great. That can we do s3 on friend on. It's supported by convoy is just a cloud library. Now, When we first started that didn't exist. Way took the decision. It will proof of concept and so on, and it all worked, and we then got high for scale as well. It's interesting to see how convoy has gone down into the appliance 11 to, because people want to have to just have a box unpack it. Implicated. If you haven't got a technical team or strong yo skills in those area, why worry about putting your own system together? Haifa scale give you back up in a vault on the partnerships with were in HP customer So way we're using Apollo's RS in storage. Andi Yeah, the Apollo is actually the platform. If we bought Heifer Scale, it would have gone on an HP Apollo as well, because of the way with agreements, we've got invited. Actually, it's quite interesting how they've gone from software. Hardware is now come in, and it's evolving into this platform with Hedvig. I mean, there was a convoy object store buried in it, but it was very discreet. No one really knew about it. You occasionally could see a term on it would appear, but it it wasn't something which they published their butt object store with the increasing data volumes. Object Store is the only way to store. There's these volumes of data in a resilient and durable way. Eso Hedvig buying that and integrating in providing a really interesting way forward. And yet, for my perspective, I'm using three. So if we had gone down the Hedvig route from my perspective, what I would like to see is I have a story policy. I click on going to point it to s three, and it goes out it provision. The bucket does the whole lot in one a couple of clicks and that's it. Job done. I don't need to go out, create the use of create the bucket, and then get one out of every little written piece in there. And it's that tight integration, which is where I see benefits coming in you. It's giving value to the platform and giving the customer the assurance that you've configured correctly because the process is an automated in convoy has ensured that every step of the way the right decisions being made on that. Yet with metallic, that's everything is about it's actually tried and tested products with a very, very smart work for a process put round to ensure that the decisions you make. You don't need to be a convoy expert to get the outcome and get the backups. >>Excellent. Well, Mark, thank you for joining Student on the Cape Talking about tthe e evolution that the University of Leicester has gone through and your thoughts on com bolts evolution in parallel. We appreciate your time first to Minutemen. I'm Lisa Martin. You're watching the cue from combo go 19.

>> live from Miami Beach, Florida It's the que covering demon 2019. Brought to you, by the way. >> Welcome back to Miami. Everybody watching the Cube, The leader in live tech coverage. This is Day two of the mon 2019 3 cubes. Third year at V mon, We did New Orleans. We did Chicago last year. Course here at the Fountain Blue in Miami. Great venue for an event like this. I'm Dave a lot. It was my co host, Peter Burroughs. Abba Dabbas. Eye is Adi is here. He's the head of a Charles Russell speech. Liza London based law firm. How about great. Great to see you. Thanks for coming on. Thankyou. So you tell us about this judge. Interesting name. Charles Russell. Speech lease. It was a merger of two firms, Right. Tell us how it all came about. >> Back in 2,014 Charles, loss of species performed for a merger between two different companies. Charles docile and speaks Lee Burcham from a 90 perspective. That was very interesting for the two departments coming together s So we have a limited time period where we had to merge these two companies Two different systems different data centers, different data sets. So it was formed by emerging back in 2,014 for five years on way here today >> that we see this a lot, you know, Emanate goes down. The acquiring company of this sounds like it was a merger. You know, they sort of battle. Okay, who's going toe? Really? Which framework is going to win? Because I'm sure had that conversation. But so to take us through that merger, what it entailed what? What the scenario looked like and how you plan for it. Sure. >> So I was part of the Charles. Also legacy Charles Russell team on, then obviously speaks about. Some had their own team as well. So initially, when we first found out about the merger, it was essential for the two teams to get together to work out. Okay, What systems? You have free mail. What systems you have for document management system playing trump cards. Which is who's got the best system and which way do we wantto move forward? A little. >> Ah, >> so but being a law firm, most law firms around the world and in the UK especially used the same types of software so essentially that from that perspective it was It was it was quite simple. But then way had to work out. How do we How do we go forward with this? Because two different headquarters in the London area. Which office do we move into? Sort of logistics around that. Can we fit in pre merger? It was six. Charles Lawson had sickle. Roughly 600 people, especially birds, had roughly 500 people. So pretty comparable. Yeah, yeah. So working out space logistics was was an issues >> making that even even more complicated, right? Yeah. >> One of the things that's interesting about a law firm, like versus a traditional manufacturer or AW financial services firm that has a lot of very fast right writing systems and have to scale on those lines is a law firms feature very complex dogs, very complex in from out of files, a lot of files that are written. But at the same time, you have to be repurposed to a lot of different work flows very sensitive to external contingent regulatory change. And so you have all of that happening, especially, I mean, two years ago from now on MySpace steak, and it was you're getting into brexit stuff, too, so that also had to be a source of uncertainty. So how has it been combining external regulatory issues the way that technology is being used in law firms and some of the new work clothes that you guys trying to support? And then adding, On top of that, the complexity of bringing these two firm GPR >> GPO itself was It was a year old project for us on. Obviously, we've got offices. The Middle East, but obviously is in the Far East on DH in Central Europe has well, so data logistics or where it sits, is an issue for us as well. So GDP, ours being a big project for us in terms of the merger itself. It was it was very, very difficult for the two I T departments to come together on actually work out. How how do we go to one unified systems? Essentially one doctor man, just in one email system. All of that took a lot of plan in law project management on essentially within the legal press itself. We got doubted in the time frames that we had that we can achieve it on within. I think It was 18 month period. We had merged order, different systems and various offices because speech the Bertram and Time is what I had. Offices in Zurich and Geneva were to merge with different offices together as well. So it was. It was a big, big task for the i T department on the firm itself. >> They're very tight migration deadlines. And and as you started to approach those deadlines you had to worry about, Okay, When we're going to cut over, how do we avoid downtime? How do we make sure that we don't? You know, I have bad data, data, corruption and the like. So how did you plan for that? And how did it go? >> So wait, we're here. C'mon on DH. Veen was It was it was a big part of our migration process. So where we had two different parts of the business Different storage systems, Different actualization system's way used to mean a CZ. The middleman basically, to my great data, from one day to center to another, using swink it. So where there was a large amount of terabytes and terabytes, amount of data way had swing kit available to us using team were able to be to be essentially a love the environments into the swing care and then bring them over to the other side of the business. And vain was essentially part on on top of that, making sure that the data that we were coming that will bring in a cross is true and not corrupt on DH, that using some of their technology is sure backups and stuff like that really, really was essential to, you know, do migration going well >> And was was Wien installed and both organizations at the time? Or was that something that you had to sort of redeploy? >> And yeah, So Legacy Charles also had way was actually myself going back probably eight years ago. Version For a time, I think team had 20,000 customers. So to here >> there were version 10 now 33 150 >> 1,001,000, 4,000 month. >> That makes me proud that we invested in vain when we did good car. So yeah, it was It was a good call from us, and essentially three other side of the business did not have. But then we just wait. Expanded our Venus State to look at both sides and then bring him across on. And then, ever since then, we've grown our vamos state across the world, across all of officers. So >> So how did you do that? So that was that was another migration that had to occur. And did you? You kind of do those simultaneously. Did you do the theme of migration first, and then bring the two systems together? >> Do you seem to do Stouffer special sauce in the migration? >> Yeah. So Veen was essentially a tool that we used to my great data sensors from one data center to another using their backup technology using their replication technology, we were able to replicate all of one side's virtual machines to the other. And then that gave us that gave us the flexibility as well. When when we had the limited down time periods that we've had, they give us the flexibility to actually Circe the business is during these particular ours. We're not gonna be able to You're not gonna have access to these systems because we're going to bring up systems from point A to point B. So veen was essential to them if >> you had to do it over again. If he had a mulligan, what would you have done differently? What what advice might you give to somebody who's trying to go through a similar migration? >> I would say Give your partners and lawyers more realistic time. Pray the time frame that we would get. >> Or don't let them give you an unrealistic time for him. >> Exactly. Yeah, so says ensured that the amount of work it's it's not just day to itself. You know, we're talking network and we're talking security. We're talking, you know, to to similar sized companies coming together. We were very, very limited time frame, consolidating all of their systems into one which is essential for the two parts of the business to collaborate together because, you know, way could have taken our time. We could have got to take this free four years a CE, far as we're concerned. But the fact that we did do it in such a quick time for him and that business to parts of the business from Day one can collaborate much better with each other. So >> we talked a lot about digital business transformation and you know, our approach or our observations on the digital business transformations, the process by which you altar and change your firm to re institutionalize the work. Change your game. Tomato Grover. All governments model as you use data as an asset, so that's affecting every firm everywhere. How's it affecting a law firm and you know your law from specifically on? How is that going to change your stance in your approach to data protection >> Data is incredibly important to unlawful. A zit is to most most organizations, but in terms of, you know, one of one of the things that's quite important in terms of law firms. We work with the financial institutions, so we held information by that. We hold personal data way hold all times of information. Charles Oscar speech leads works with Aware is of law apart from Kunal. So the areas of law that they worked with his vast in terms of the amount of data that we hold and essentially I mean, for us data is the most important thing that runs the firm and having visibility tow our data. How do we How do we work that data? How do we then market based on the data that we have? How do we market ourselves from that data. You know, there might be one area the business that's dealing with a family issue, family law. But then, you know that that could correspond with the litigation issue. You know, how do we work that data? To be to be an advancing to our businesses is extremely important. For >> what? What do you think of the announcements this week? I'm kind of curious. I was liketo ask the practitioners of what they think about. You know what was announced. You had, uh, well, you had the ve made $1,000,000,000. That's kind of fun and cool, but But you had the with the program, which was kind of interesting. The whole ap I look the beam availability orchestrator, where they're really talking about recovering from backups as a host that needed to recover from, you know, a replicated instance. You know, some of the automated testing stuff was kind of interesting. They talked about dynamic documentation, things you saw this week that you'll actually go back and say, Hey, I can apply that to solve a problem. Sure. >> So, essentially, I think I've been a really good question is very relevant to us many of not just ourselves law firm but many of the other law firms around the world are now looking at cloud based services now for us. I mean, this was a big thing five years ago way you know, everyone was talking about public clouds. Us. We're now we're now looking clouds and where basically, we've bean pushed by the vendors themselves to go towards cloudlike Citrix, for example. Their licensing model was based around their services. So is Microsoft in Mike's off? You don't you don't really have, you know, exchange anymore. Within premises you have off 365 A lot of the SAS applications are moving toward the cloud on DH. What wrote me? I had to say doing the keynote in regards to act, too. And how team are trying to be the visionaries in terms of look at that cloud is their next big thing for the next 10 years, offering often a crucial and for businesses like ours who have limited exposure to cloud technologies limited understanding, essentially having a tool that could migrate from one cloud to another. It's fantastic, you know, we've offered, you know I've spoken to, obviously are United directors around the other law firms where I wanted to have gone to the public cloud. But they don't know how to come back in and having a tall that essentially gives you that flexibility to bring it back in house to go form a ws to zoo. Or if there's a particular assess application, for example, that piers better with a W s. But you've got your other application that piers with that particular application is your Why would you want to have in the door? You'll probably want to move into a W eso for us, I think. What? The message coming out of'em on this year has bean really, really helpful for us. >> So So when you started with theme, they had it said 20,000 custom You like the 20001st customer on DIT was coincided with the virtual ization, you know, craze. Do you feel like the team knowing what you know about them, you have a lot of experience with them Consort of Replicate that success in this town intendant and in Act two, >> I think when I first looked at them, Wow, this is really, really simple. It's a bit like an iPhone. You know you given iPhone to your grandmother or to your children, and they have to play with it. And I see the beam as an intuitive piece of software that easy fighting professionals to get on with it, as their slogan said a few years ago. It just works. It does just work. Wear were great advocates of him. It's worked wonders for us. We've acquired smaller businesses using we've managed companies using and when I see you know, when you go to the sessions and you see the intelligence behind their thinking, I think going back to your question I think Wei si oui, si, vamos a strategic partner for us when we see their vision and we believe in their vision, and I think what they're doing in terms of what they working on next few years, I think we're well favor there, and I think, you know, essentially, that's where the most of their business is going to come from, >> where you sit down with, you know, rat mayor over over vodka and he says, Tell me the one thing I could do to make your life you know, easier, better you can't say cut prices s a hellhole. But what would you advise him to >> make my life better >> other than Jim instead of >> yeah, eyes that >> would make you crazy. >> So in terms of a zoo, a technology, >> your business relationship or something, she'd like to see them do that would. I >> think in terms of mergers and acquiring companies, seen license rentals will be a good thing. I know, I know. They give you a valuation license keys, and that's something that you can use. So, for example, if we were to acquire a company that has hundreds of servers and PM's having license rentals for a period of time, able >> to spin it up and spin it down actually allowed >> Exactly. Yeah, that would be an advantage. I think in terms of what you know what they're doing in the marketplace, and a lot of law firms use him. I feel I can't do any more than they are doing now. And in all the years that we've used to be my fingers on eight years now, but we've only had one serious problem, and the way they got that problem, you know the way, the way they communicated to reverse the way they a lot of different teams across the the Europe and the US go involved. I think, you know, in terms of service, in terms of software, in terms of what they what they do for us. I don't think there's anything more to add. Teoh. Right? Maia's vision. >> That's great for their custom of it. Well, thanks so much for coming on. The Cube is not heavy. Really? Thank you very much. You're welcome to keep it right there, buddy Peter, and I'll be back with our next guests right after this short break. We're live from Miami at the front of Blue Hotel. You're watching the Cube from Vienna on 2019 right back.

>> live from Anaheim, California. It's the queue covering nutanix dot Next twenty nineteen. Brought to you by Nutanix. >> Welcome back, everyone to the cubes. Live coverage of nutanix dot Next here in Anaheim, California. I'm your host, Rebecca Night, along with my co host, John Furrier. We have two guests for the segment. We have Ken Ringle. He is the vice president Global Alliance Architecture at Wien. Thanks so much for coming on. The your Cube alum Returning to the >> great to be here again >> And we have Mark Ni Mire. He is the director of product management for data protection Nutanix Thank you for coming on the Cube. So we're one of the big thing when the big announcements today is nutanix mine. I want to talk to you and ask you Ken. What brings nutanix and team together to create Nutanix? Mine? >> Yeah, sure where you know we're super excited. You know, we've been partners for many years. We actually brought a product to market together last year, called the availability for nutanix, which added support for primary workloads. But we hadn't been working together on the secondary side, right where we land are backups And it became very clear, you know, from our customers that they were, You know, we really want to provide that seamless experience, a turnkey experience for our customers. So we started talking together and really, this is over a year in the making, right? We came together and we started brainstorming and it became very clear in a lot of synergies between the companies and and what we could deliver to our customers. So it became obvious. Hey, let's let's bring this together. It was more about the high. Not not not when they're you know, it was It was it was how how do we do it? >> And what were the problems you were trying to solve here? What were the issues that you were hearing from customers? >> So when we talk to customers, a lot of complaints that there are customers are voicing its around the complexity in their backup infrastructure, Right? Nutanix is known for providing simplicity for the primary infrastructure, right, reducing complexity that you typically having your free chair our protection. New tenants mind will provides the same amount ofthe simplicity for your for your lack of infrastructure, a type of converts solution that includes the Wien sell fair to provide data protection services for any workload running in your data center >> Integrations A big part of the modernized in hybrid on cloud with, you know, on premises Private Cloud. As you guys know, integrating it is not always that easy. This's pretty important. You guys been very successful with your partnering. Your product has been successful. Revenues actually show that as the cloud comes into the picture, a lot of people have been tweaking the game there game a little bit on the product side because of the unique differences with Cloud. So with multi cloud, private cloud and hybrid, what changes what's changing in the customer mind right now? Because they got their own premises thing pretty solid, but operationally it feels like cloud. But how does it affect the d Rp? Because this is going to be one of the big conversations. >> Yeah, no question. I mean, when we when we talked to our customers on how they're protecting their data, you know, we hear from a lot of customers is hey, we want to leverage the cloud for for a number of things. And I think the cloud has gone through an evolution right, You know, it's just like anything there's, you know, the great great hey could do all these things. And then people come back to reality. And what we see a lot of our customers doing is is using the cloud for long term data retention, using it as a secondary d our site. You know, you go back five years, you know, customer, especially large customers, all have two physical data centers. So now what? We're seeing a lot of our customers. They have that one physical primary data center, but they're leveraging the cloud. Is there as there d our site, right? So they're they're moving their data there with our recovery capabilities, you know, you can actually get a cloud workload recovered in a disaster scenario quite rapidly. And that's that's been a major change over the especially over the last couple years. >> And then, if you really look at integration, right, the the new Tenants Mind solution to Platform provides integration in six different areas. Integration is sizing, making it very easy to size, or we've identified some form. Factors were building it into new. He's an ex isar, very easy to, uh, to buy single skew that basically provides the hardware hardware support suffer for from from nutanix and suffer from being easy to deploy. Very automated installer that turns the nutanix appliance into a into a mine appliance in a matter of minutes and an easy to manage integrated dashboards Easy to scale right Horse entering is tailing out for capacity, but also for increased performance and then integrated support, where we have a joint support model between the two companies to really help our customers in case there are issues. >> So why why did you choose each other? What was the courtship like and and how how did they have the relationship evolve? >> So if you look at vino and new tenants, we really focus on quality and providing simplicity for our customers. That if that is something that really it was very apparent from the beginning that we have the same view points in the same Mantorras, basically around simplicity, providing quality both off our MPs scores are definitely the highest in the industry, something that is that is practically unheard of. So it was a very natural. I think this company's coming together and providing value together. >> Yeah, I mean, we're maniacal about customer success and customer support and customer satisfaction. That was that was very clear early on. You know, Venus as a peer software company in a way, and we need a partner in order to deliver a full stack solution. Nutanix is there's just a lot of synergies that culture, the companies, the size of the companies, the age of the cos it just It's just a great partnership in a great fit where, you know, there's just we're both moving in the same direction in in concert >> both hard charging cultures to, you know, entrepreneurial high quality was focus on the customer but hard charging. You guys move fast, so well, I got the two experts here on data protection. I gotta ask you about my favorite topic, ransomware, because people are fun and get rid of that tape. I got to get stuff back faster on recoveries. But ransomware really highlights the data protection scenario because they target like departments that maybe understaffed or might be vulnerable or just don't fix their problem. They go back to the well every time that it's everything you want to make some cash and go back. This >> is where >> software. Khun solved a lot of problem. What's your what's your guy's view of the whole ransomware thing? Because it becomes huge. >> Yeah, no question. Way Hear this from a lot of our customers And of course, we can't talk about it when we have customers come to us. But, you know, we've had many customers come to us, and unfortunately, it's after the fact A I you know, I had a ransomware attack and, you know, I lost all this, but now you know I can't let it happen again, but it's really from a backup strategy perspective. It's still important to keep air gap. You know, these ransom where these folks that are building these, these ransomware attacks, they're very intelligent. They've gotten extremely intelligent and how they move from one system to another and they even hide out. So you, you you eliminate a ransomware attack and that thing can come right back. You restore a backup that was a month old that has that sitting and waiting. So, you know, having a solution that can actually test your backups before you put him in production. Haven't air gap, you know, have a mutability on some of your backup date of those. These are all things we talk to our coast. >> You'd be a point about the bridges up because it was just going to a customer about this. They fixed the ransomware paid but didn't fix the problem. Yeah, so it's, like, end of the month and eat some cash right around the end of the month. But, you know, saying they shake him down again. Yes. The wells there, they keep on coming back. So there's, like, community of data perfection. I mean, professionals getting together to kind of get ahead of this problem >> on DH, then the other aspect ofthe basically being able to recover quickly his performance, right? Nutanix platform provides have informed the throughput. So you can very quickly restore your work clothes as well. >> Yeah, that would be a great problem of simplifying. Yeah, exactly. >> So what are the next steps for this alliance? Where where where do we go from here? >> So from from basically we've just finished a round of vested beta testing right way are going to be maniacally focused on the first hundred customers really understanding how they're going to put mine in their data centers. How they were going to use it as in their data sent to protect their Derek. There their workloads and their applications from their own. We have a lot of plans, very interesting plans around Rome Emperor. We can build even tighter integration from a management perspective, but also from a data fabric perspective. Weather that's on prime a weather gets goes into desire clouded nutanix icloud There's a lot of interesting areas that brain and I have been brainstorming on white boarding and so on that you'LL see coming out in the next two versions of the products. >> What's the big customer request? What's the big feature request? What's the big ask from customers for you guys together? >> At the end of the day, you know, our customers are really asking for simplicity. They they want, they want to simplify their environment. I mean, it is moving from specialists generalists, and they and they want a system that works well together. That's going to lower their costs and they want peace of mind. So they want. They want to know their backups are protected, They want to know they can restore. And that's really what we're focused on is providing that to our customers >> and reliable. Have making sure their works hundred percent any new things emerging out the multi cloud thing that you guys see coming down around the quarter that you're getting ready for to help customers simplified any any signals from this multi cloud equation. >> So one of the things I look at is really the lines between on Graham and primary and secondary and tertiary. They're really blurring. Also, the lines between Young Prem and Cloud are blurring as well, but you can replicate data and replicate backups really, really efficiently to wherever it needs to be. So I really see that as a zoo core strength to enable value that plays into the military >> true operational model across whatever environment, and still do the tearing and things you need to do. >> Yeah, no doubt flexibility and being able to support, you know, multiple environments. You know, that's that's that's absolutely what we're after. It's It's what we what we leverage is part of the nutanix ecosystem is is that breath of coverage, but but also given customer choice. >> Just talking to Rebecca, which we love data project. Should I leave lights? Ideo delegate always whimsy will you guys be on next week? This is a huge conversation that used to be a bolt on conversation in the old days of now. Data protection, backup in recovery, disaster planning. All part of a operating model. Holistic picture. Yeah. How is that? We're one hundred percent there yet. And all customers where they still use. This stuff's still kind of like, not forgetting to design in. >> Yeah, I mean, protection. You know where you know, lots of our customers are coming to us because their struggle with legacy solutions and they're looking to modernize their whole infrastructure right there, modernizing where they land. The backups are modernizing the platform that that lands those backups on the infrastructure. And so, you know, that's it's a major problem for our customers and really, you know, you you mentioned, you know, availability and you know, you you go back five years, maybe five, seven, eight years. You know, availability was measured in three nines. Four, ninety five, ninety availability. You know, everyone in the world of of everything cloud and everything sas, you know, availability is one hundred percent or nothing. You know, it's there is no there. There really is no sort of anything but a one hundred percent availability, >> and its security highlights all the problems. So another customer about this ransom, one other ransomware customer they were doing all the backups on tape. Can you imagine? Of course, they're talking for ransom where it's just good on the director. He was still using tape because they can't turn around fast enough. It was a big problem. >> Yeah, you know, it's funny, you know, you you know, we're focused on innovation and next things. But when you you know, you you then have some of those customer conversations. And some of them are still, you know, because of their compliance and processing procedures, There's still, you know, five years behind may be where we are. You know, you've got a you gotto sort of bring them along for the journey to knowing that they're gonna they're gonna trail behind. But for the for the early adopters and the innovators way also have to serve them as well. >> And they got there. They gotta level up themselves to it, son. Them too. They had they had the level of >> So speaking of innovation, you are two different companies. You already talked about this, its energies and the similarities in culture. But you are two companies coming together to build a product. How does that work? I mean, do you do get in the same room? Do you watch the same movies? Do you have a happy you? >> So >> get one brain working on this >> female. Vamos a distributed company. We are distributed company. So it's it's It's a lot of calls and so on. But it's it's really fun to really see it. She had come together and becoming really right. Yes, there's a lot of hard engineering problems that we have to solve in some very deep discussions around layout and things like that. But then doubling it up, working on the joint value prop and working on the joint marketing it really is a very nice wide set of off capabilities and skills that we've been working >> on. And when I went out, I mean, it is hard. It is hard to bring to two things together and work on them jointly. And we've, you know, so far been fairly successful. What I would tell you is it it brings some some advantages to us as well Because we have a best of breed platform. We have a best to breed data protection platform. You know, bringing those together bring some advantages that maybe someone that does all that together on their own don't have because it's not a focus area for them. Right? So, you know, it's our job to make sure we take advantage of that and provide some additional things for our customers that maybe they won't get out of some of those other platforms. >> Well, Mark and Ken, thank you both. So much for coming on the Cube. It was a pleasure having you. >> Thank you very much. >> Thanks for having us. >> I'm Rebecca Knight for John Furrier. We will have Ah, we'Ll have more from nutanix dot Next coming up just a little bit. Stay with us.

>> Produced from the Cube studios. This's strong by science, in depth conversations about science based training, sports performance and all things health and wellness. Here's your hose, Max Marzo. Thank you for being on two. Very, >> very excited about what we have going on for those of you not familiar with that Ella Keira, and I'm going to say his name incorrectly. Look here. Is that correct? Had >> the care is right. Very good. Yes. Also, >> I've practiced that about nineteen times. Oh, the other night, and I can't feel like I get it wrong and is one of the more well rounded individuals I've come across. His work is awesome. Initially learned quite a bit about him from Chase Phelps, who we had on earlier, and that came through Moore from blood flow restriction training. I've had the pleasure of reading up on quite a bit, and his background is more than unique. Well, around his understatement and really excited have on, I call him one of the most unique individuals people need to know about, especially in the sports science sylph sports science world. He really encompasses quite a bit of just about every domain you could think about. So add Thank you for being on here if you don't mind giving a little bit of background and a bio about yourself. >> Thanks so much. You know, not to. Not to warn anybody, really. But it kind of started as a front line medic in the Army. Really? You know, the emphasis back then was a get people back toe action as soon as possible. So that was my mindset. I spent about eight years in an emergency department learning and training through them. I undergo interviews and exercise physiology from University of California. Davis. I love exercise science. I love exercise physiology. Yeah, started doing athletic training because my junior year in college, I was a Division one wrestler. Tor my a c l p c l N L C E o my strength coach, chiropractor, athletic trainer all the above. Help me get back rustling within four months with a brace at a pretty high level of visual. On level on guy was like, Well, I don't want to go to med school, but what I want to do is help other people recover from injury and get back to the activities that they love. And so I was kind of investigating. Try to figure out what I wanted to do, Really want to be an athletic trainer? We didn't realize how much or how little money they make, um And so I was kind of investigating some other things. Checked out physical therapy, dentistry. But I really wanted to be in the locker room. I wanted to have my own practice. I wanted to be able to do what I wanted to do and not sit on protocols and things like that because I don't think that exists. And so I chose chiropractic school. I went to chiropractic school, learned my manual therapy, my manual techniques, diagnosis, loved it, was able to get patients off the street, didn't have tto live and die by insurance and referrals, was able only to open my own clinic. And and about four years in I realized that I didn't really know very much. I knew howto adjust people, and you had to do a little bit soft tissue. But not really. We weren't taught that I felt like my exercise background and really dropped off because I wasn't doing a lot of strength conditioning anymore. And so I went back and got a phD in sports medicine and athletic training. I had a really big goal of publishing and trying to contribute to the literature, but also understanding the literature and how it applies to the clinical science and clinical practice and try to bridge the gap really, between science and in the clinic and love treating patients. I do it every single day. A lot of people think I don't cause I write so much education, but, like I'm still in my clinic right now, twelve hours a day in the last three days, because it's what I love to dio on DH. Then just for kicks and giggles, I went out and got an MBA, too, so I worked in a lot of different environments. Va Medical System, twenty four hour Fitness Corporate I've consulted for a lot of companies like rock tape. It was their medical director. Fisma no trigger point performance. Have done some research for Sarah Gun kind of been able to do a lot with the phD, which I love, but really, my home base is in the clinic in the trenches, helping people get better. In fact, >> activity. That's awesome. Yeah, Tio coming from athletic training back on athlete. So I myself play I. Smit played small Division three basketball, and I'm a certified athletic trainer as well, and it's the initial love you kind of fall into being in that realm, and that's who you typically work with and then realizing that maybe the hours and the practice that they do isn't fit for you and finding ways you can really get a little more hands on work. I took the sports scientists route. It sounds like you're out has been just about everything and all the above. So it's great to hear that because having that well rounded profile, we weren't athlete. Now you've been in the medical side of the street condition inside even the business development side. You really see all domains from different angles. Now I know you are the educational director for smart tools with their blood flow restriction training chase. How younger? Very highly, uh, about your protocols. I've listened to some of them. If you don't mind diving into a little bit, what exactly is blood flow restriction training and what are the potential benefits of it? >> Yeah, you know it is about two thousand fourteen. I got approached by smart tools. They had developed the only FDA listed or at that point of FDA approved instrument assisted soft tissue mobilization tools other people like to call it, you know, basically grass in or whatever. Andi was really intrigued with what their philosophy wass, which was Hey, we want to make things in the US We want to create jobs in the U. S. And and we want to create the highest quality product that also is affordable for the small clinic. Whereas before the options Ray, you know, three thousand dollars here, two thousand dollars here on DH. So I wrote education for smart tools because of that, and because I just blot. I just believed so much in keeping things here in the U. S. And providing jobs and things locally. Um, so that's really where this all started. And in about two thousand fifteen, my buddy Skylar Richards up FC Dallas he has of the MLS. Yes, the the the lowest lost game days in the MLS. And yeah, I mean, when you think about that and how hard that is such a long season, it's such a grind is the longest season in professional sports. You think? Well, what is he doing there? I mean, I really respect his work up there. And so, like, you know, we were working on a project together and how I was fortunate enough to meet him. And I just really got to pick his brand on a lot of stuff and things I was doing in the clinic. And what could I do? Be doing better. And then one day it just goes, you know, have you seen this be afar stuff? And I'm like, No, I have no idea. It's your idea about it. And so, as usual at the science geek that I am, I went and I went to med sports discus. And I was like, Holy crap, man, I can't even I can't even understand how many articles are out there regarding this already. And this is back to you in two thousand fifteen, two thousand sixteen. I was so used to, you know, going and looking up kinesiology, tape research and being really bad. And you gotta kind of apply. You gotta apply a lot of these products to research. That's really not that strong. This was not the case. And so I brought it to neck the CEO of startles. And like, Dude, we've really got a look at this because really, there's only one option, and I saw the parallels between what was happening with Instrument assisted where there wasn't very many options, but they were very, very expensive and what we could do now with another thing that I thought was amazing. And it wasn't a passive modality because I was super excited about because, you know, I had to become a corrective exercise specialist because I knew I didn't have enough time with people to cause to strengthen hypertrophy. But be afar allows me to do that. And so that's really where I kind of switched. My mind went well, I really need to start investigating this and so to answer your question. VFR is the brief and in tremendous occlusion of arterial and venous blood flow, using a tourniquet while exercising at low intensities or even at rest. And so what that means is we basically use it a medical grade tourniquet and restrict the amount of oxygen or blood flow into a limb while it's exercising and totally including Venus, return back to the heart. And what this does is the way that explains my patients. Is it essentially tricks your brain into thinking you're doing high intensity exercise. But you're not and you're protecting tissue and you don't cause any muscle damage that you normally would with high intensity exercise or even low intensity exercise the failure. And so it works perfectly for those people that we can't compromise tissue like for me in a rehab center. >> Gotcha. Yeah, no, it's It's a super interesting area, and it's something that I have dove into not nearly as much as you have. But you can see the benefits really steaming back from its origins right when it was Katsu train in Japan, made for older adults who couldn't really exercise that needed a fine way to induce hypertrophy now being used to help expedite the healing process being used in season after ah, difficult gamed and prove healing, or whether it's not for whether or not it's used to actually substitute a workout. When travel becomes too demanding, toe actually load the system now with B f ar, Are you getting in regards to hypertrophy similar adaptations? Hypertrophy wise. If you were to do be a far with a low low, say, twenty percent of your one right max, compared to something moderately heavier, >> yeah, or exceeds in the time frame. You know, true hypertrophy takes according to the literature, depending on what reference you're looking at at the minimum, twelve weeks, but more likely sixteen weeks. And you've got to train at least sixty five percent. Or you've got to take low intensity loads to find his twenty to thirty five percent of one read max all the way to failure, which we know causes damage to the tissue be a farce. Starts to show hypertrophy changes that we two. So you know, my my best. My so I this It's kind of embarrassing, but it is what it is. But like, you know, I started learning mother our stuff. I'm a earlier Dr. Right? So I go right away and I go by the first product, I can. I have zero idea what I'm doing there. Zero like and a former Mr America and Mr Olympia Former Mr America champion and the one of the youngest Mr Olympia Tze Hor Olympia Mr Olympia ever compete. He competed and hey didn't stand But anyway so high level bodybuilder Okay, whatever you us. But he was definitely Mr America. He comes into my clinic when I was in Denver, It was probably a neighbour of you at the time, and he and he's like, Okay, I got this pain in my in my tryst up. It's been there for six months. I haven't been able to lift this heavy. My my arm isn't his biggest driving me crazy, right? The bodybuilder, of course, is driving him crazy, so I measure it. He's a half inch difference on his involves side versus on uninvolved side. I diagnosed him with Try some tendinitis at zero idea what I'm doing and be a far. But I said, Listen, I want you to use these cuffs. I got to go to Europe. I gotta go lecture in Europe for a couple weeks and I want you two, three times a week. I want you to do three exercise. I like to use the TRX suspension trainer. I've done a lot of work with them, and I really respect their product and I love it for re up. So I said, Listen, I want you three exercises on the suspension trainer I want to do is try to do a bicep. I want to do some, you know, compound exercise, and in that case I gave, Melo wrote, Come back in two weeks. He comes back in the clinic. I remember her is involved. Side was a quarter of an inch larger than his uninvolved type, and he's like, Do, That's two weeks. I'm like, Dude, that's two weeks And he's like, This is crazy and I go, Yeah, I agree. And since then, I've been, like, bought it like it's for hypertrophy. It is unbelievable. You get people that come in and I've had, you know, like after my injury in college rustling I my a c l I've torn it three times. Now, you know, my quad atrophy was bad. My calf was not the same size, literally. Symmetry occurs so quickly. When you start applying these principles, um, it just blows me away. >> So when you're using it, are using it more and isolated manner or are doing more compound exercises. For example, if you're doing a C l artifically assuming they're back too full function ish, Are you doing bodyweight squads or that starting off with the extensions? How do you kind of progress that up program? >> Yeah, it really just depends on where they're at. Like, you know, day with a C l's. You can pretty much start if there's no contraindications, you convey. Stay docks. Start day one. I'm right after surgery to try to prevent as much of that quad wasting that we get from re perfusion, injury and reactive oxygen species. All the other things that occur to literally day one. You can start and you'LL start isolated. You might start with an isometric. I really do like to do isometrics early on in my in my rehab. Um, and you can use the cops and you can You can fatigue out all the motor units if they're not quite air yet. Like, let's say, pre surgically, where they can't use the lamb, they're in a they're either bedridden or they're in a brace or they're a cast. You can use it with electric stim and or a Russian stem. And with that contraction, not only did you drive growth hormone, but you can also prevent atrophy by up to ninety, ninety five percent so you can start early early on, and I like to call it like phases of injury, right? Like pre surgical or pre injury, right at injury, you kind of get into the sub acute phase of inflammation. You kind of progressed isolated exercises and he goingto isolated in compound and you going to compound in any kind of move through the gamut. What's so cool about the afar is you're not having to reinvent the wheel like you use the same protocols, even use. I mean, really. I mean, if you're using lightweight with sarabande or resistance to being which I do every day, I'd be a far on it. Now, instead of your brain thinking you're not doing anything, your brain's like whoa, high intensity exercise. Let's let's help this tissue recovered because it's got to get injured. So we're gonna grow. >> That's yeah, that's pretty amazing. I've used it myself. I do have my smart tools. I'm biased. I like what you're doing. I really like the fact that there's no cords. It's quite mobile, allows us to do sled pushes, resisted marches, whole wide span and movements on DH before we're kind of hopped on air here. You're talking about some of the nutritional interventions you add to that, whether it be vitamin C college in glucose to mean. What specifically are you putting together on DH? Why're you doing that? Is that for tissue healing? >> Yeah, that's right. It's way. Have ah, in my clinic were Multidisciplinary Clinic in Dallas, Texas, and called the Body Lounge is a shameless plug, but way really believe that healing has to start from the inside, that it has to start with the micro nutrients and then the macro nutrients. And then pretty much everything can be prevented and healed with nutrition and exercise. That's what we truly believe, and that's what we try to help people with. The only thing that I use manual therapy for and I do a lot of needling and all these other things is to help people get it down there. Pain down enough so that they can do more movement. And so, from a micro nutrient standpoint, we've gotta hit the things that are going to help with college and synthesis and protein sentences, So that would be protein supplementation that would be vitamin C. We do lots of hydration because most of us were walking around dehydrated. If you look at some of the studies looking at, you know, even with a normal diet, magnesium is deficient. Vitamin C is deficient during the winter all of us are vitamin D deficient Bluetooth. I own production starts, you know, basically go to kneel. So all those things we we will supplement either through I am injection intramuscular injection or through ivy >> and you guys take coral. Someone's on that, too for some of the good Earth ion for the violent de aspects are taking precursors in a c. Are you guys taking glue to file? >> We inject glorify on either in your inner, either in your i V or in in the I am. You know, with the literature supporting that you only absorb about five to ten percent of whatever aural supplementation you take. We try to we try to push it. I am arrive. And then in between sessions, yes, they would take Coral to try to maintain their levels. We do pre, you know, lab testing, prior lab testing after to make sure we're getting the absorption rate. But a lot of our people we already know they don't absorb B twelve vitamin, and so we've got to do it. Injectable. >> Yeah, Chef makes sense with the B f r itself. And when I get a couple of questions knocked out for I go too far off topic. I'm curious about some of these cellars swelling protocols and what that specifically is what's happening physiologically and how you implement that. >> Yeah, so South Swell Protocol, where we like to call a five by five protocol way. Use the tourniquet. It's in the upper extremity at fifty percent limb occlusion pressure at eighty percent limb occlusion pressure in the lower extremity. You keep him on for five minutes, and then you rest for three minutes, meaning I deflate the cuffs. But don't take them off, and then I re inflate it same pressure for five minutes and then deflate for three minutes. You're five on three off for five rounds, justified by five protocol. What's happening is that you're basically you're creating this swelling effect because, remember, there's no Venus return, so nothing is. But you're getting a small trickle in of fluid or blood into that limb. And so what happens is the extra Seiler's extra Styler swelling occurs. Our body is just dying for Homo stasis. The pressures increase, and there's also an osmotic uh, change, and the fluid gets pushed extra. Sara Lee into the muscle cell body starts to think that you're going to break those muscle cells. I think of it as like a gay. A za water balloon is a great analogy that I've heard. So the water balloon is starting to swell that muscle cell starts to swell. Your body thinks your brain thinks that those cells need to protect themselves or otherwise. They're going to break and cause a popped oh sis or die. And so the response is this whole cascade of the Mt. Horsey one, which is basically a pathway for protein synthesis. And that's why they think that you can maintain muscle size in in inactive muscle through the South Swell Protocol and then when we do this, also protocol. I also like to add either isometrics if I can or if they're in a cast at electric stim. I like to use the power dot that's my favorite or a Russian stim unit, and then you consent. Make the setting so that you're getting muscular. Contraction with that appears to drive growth forma, and it drives it about one and a half times high intensity exercise and up to three times more so than baseline. When we have a growth hormone spurt like that and we have enough vitamin C. It allows for college and synthesis. I like to call that a pool of healing. So whether you can or cannot exercise that limb that's injured if I can create that pool of healing systemically now I've got an environment that can heal. So I have zero excuse as a provider not to get people doing something to become, you know, healing faster, basically. And are you >> typically putting that at the end? If they were training? Or is that typically beginning? We're in this session I put in assuming that that is done in conjunction with other movements. Exercises? >> Yeah, so, like, let's say I have a cast on your right leg. You've got a fracture. I failed to mention also that it appears that the Afar also helps with bone healing. There's been a couple studies, Um, so if we could get this increased bone healing and I can't use that limb that I'm going to use the other lambs and I'm going to use your cardiovascular function, um, I'm going to use you know, you Let's say with that leg, I'LL do upper body or a commoner with cuffs on in order to train their cardiovascular systems that way. Maintain aerobic capacity while they're feeling for that leg, I will do crossover exercises, so I'll hit that opposite leg because something happens when I use the cuffs on my left leg. I get a neurological response on my right leg, and I and I maintain strength and I reduced the amount of atrophy that occurs. And it's, you know, it's all in neurological. So if I had an hour with somebody and I was trying to do the cell school protocol, I would probably do it first to make sure because it's a forty minute protocol. It is a long protocol. If you add up five, five minutes on three minutes off now, during the three minutes off, I could be soft tissue work. I can do other things toe help that person. Or I could just have an athletic tournament training room on a table, and they can learn to inflate and deflate on their own. It doesn't like it's not has to be supervised the whole time, and that's usually what they do in my office is I'LL put him in the I V Lounge and i'Ll just teach them how to inflate deflate and they just keep time. Uh and there, go ahead. I mean, interrupt my bowl. No, no, no, it's okay. And then I just hit other areas. So if I do have extra time, then I might Do you know another body pushing upper body pole? I might do, you know, whatever I can with whatever time I have. If you don't have that much time, then you do the best you can with the cells for protocol. And who study just came out that if you only do two rounds of that, you don't get the protein synthesis measured through M. Dorsey long. So a lot of times, people ask me what can I just do this twice and according to the literature looks like No, it's like you have to take it two five because you've got to get enough swelling to make it to make the brain think that you're gonna explode >> those muscle cells. >> Well, let me take a step back and trap process majority of that. So essentially, what you do with the seller swelling protocol is that you initiate initiating protein synthesis by basically tripping the body that those cells themselves are going to break down. And then when you add the message of the electrical muscular stimulation, you're getting the growth hormone response, the otherwise wouldn't. Is >> that correct? That's correct. So and go ahead. So imagine after a game, I just you know, I'm Skyler Richards. I just got done with my team. Were on the bus or on the airport, our airplane. My guys have just finished a match. You know, you're Fords have run seven miles at high intensity sprint. You think we have any muscle breakdown? Probably have a little bit of damage. They gotta play again in a few days, and I want to do things to help the recovery. Now I put them on with East M. They're not doing any exercise. There's just chilling there, just hanging out. But we're getting protein synthesis. We're getting growth hormone production. I give him some vitamin C supplementation. I give him some protein supplementation, and now not only do we have protein census, but we also have growth hormone in college, in formation in the presence of vitamin C. So that's where we kind of get into the recovery, which chase is doing a >> lot of work with and how much vitamin C are supplemented with, >> you know, really depends. I try to stick to ride around in a new patient. I won't go start off three thousand and I'LL go to five thousand milligrams. It will cause a little dirty pants if I can quote some of my mentors so I try to start them light and I'll move them up I'LL go with eyes ten thousand if I need it but typically stay in the three to five thousand range >> And are you having collagen with that as well? >> I personally don't but I think it would be a good idea if he did >> with some of that. I guess I really like the idea of using the B f R a zit on the opposite lake that's injured to increase cortical drive. So we're listeners who aren't familiar when you're training one limb yet a neurological phenomenon that occurs to increase performance in the other limb. And so what ends referred to if you had one lamb that was immobilizing couldn't function. If you use BF are on the other limb, you're able to stimulate, so it's higher type to voter units able have a cortical drive that near maximal intent, which is going to help, then increase the performance of the other leg that you also say that is promoting this positive adaptation environment is kind of hormonal. Malu I per se How long does that last for the presence of growth hormone? >> It looks like that the stimulation last somewhere between forty eight and seventy two hours. And so I think that that's why when they've done studies looking at doing the afar for strength of hypertrophy, you know, five days a week, compared to two to three days a week for two to three days a week, or just essentially equal to the five days a week. So I think it is long enough that if you do it like twice a week that you're going to get enough cross over >> cash it and you're using it two for the anthologies of effect. So what do you using Be fr yu have that temporary time period of time window where a need that might be bothering your doesn't irritate as much. And are you using that window than to train other exercise and movements while they have, ah, pain for emotion. >> Yeah, absolutely. So it's and I really can't explain it. It's, um we know from the science that it doesn't matter what type of exercise that we do. There is an animal Jesus effect. And that's why I emphasized so much with provider, especially manual therapists attend to think, Hey, you know, my my hands or my needles or my laser or my ultrasound or East them or whatever it is, is the healing driver. It's not the healing driver exercises a healing driver, and I know that's my opinion and people argue with me. But it's true. My hands are not nearly as important as getting people moving because of the energies that perfect and just overall health effects. With that said, the Afar has some sort of Anil Jesus effect that I can't explain now. Of course, we all know it's in the brain. There's something that goes on where you're able to reduce the pain level for up to forty five minutes and then I can train in that window. There is an overall ability to improve people's movement even longer than that, to what I find is that once I get people moving their tenancy just like inertia. Once you get to move in, it keeps moving. Same thing with people that I work with. They tend to get moving more in my clinic. They get confidence, then they end up moving more and more and more. And they get away from, um, being >> scared. Yeah, I know that. That's a great way to put it, because you do have that hesitation to move. And when you providing a stimulus that might ease some of the pain momentarily. I know there is some research out there. Look at Tanaka Thie, the ten apathy being like knee pain, essentially the layman's term kind way to put it. And they're doing it with, like the Metrodome in the background going Ping Ping ping. They're having that external stimulus that they focus on to help disassociate the brain and the knee and the pain. And this is something I can't top what chase and how he says. Yeah, we've been using, like you alluded to Thebe fr, too. Remove the presence of pain so they can do something. These exercises that they typically associate with pain in a pain for your way. >> Yeah, And then now that they're exercising now you get the additional Anil Jesus effect of the exercise itself. Says I'm like a double like a double lang >> Gotcha. Yeah, with blood flow restriction train because it does promote such an environment that really has an intense Jane court stimulus to the body where you get this type to five or stimulated high levels of lactate high levels of metabolite accumulation. I said she had paper about the possible use of bloodflow restriction trading cognitive performance has curious if you had a chance account dive into some of that. I love to hear some of your thoughts being that you have such asshole listed view of everything. >> Yeah, definitely. I think I didn't get a chance to look at it. I appreciate you sending that to me because I have to lecture and may on reaction times, and I was trying to figure out how I'm gonna like include the afar in this lecture at some point, not be totally, you know, inauthentic. But now I can. So I totally appreciate it. I know that there is, and I know that there's an additional benefit. I've seen it. I've worked with stroke patients, other types of people that I have auto, immune, disease, different types of conditions where I've used the Afar and their functional capacity improves over what their physical capacity is doing on. And so I am not surprised at what I'm seeing with that. And I've got to learn more about what other people are thinking. It was interesting what you sent me regarding the insulin growth factor one. We know that that's driven up much higher with the Afar compared to low intensity exercise and the relationship between that and cognitive function. So I've gotta dive deeper into it. I'm not definitely not a neuroscientists, You know, I'm like a pretty much floor if I p e teacher and, you know, just trying to get people moving. And I've gotta understand them more because there is a large association between that exercise component and future >> health, not just of muscles but also a brain. Yeah, >> one of things that I do work with a neurosurgeon and he's awesome. Dr. Chat Press Mac is extremely intelligent, and he saw the blood flow restriction trade as one those means to improve cognitive performance, and I didn't find the paper after he had talked about it. Well, the things that interested me was the fact that is this huge dresser, especially in a very controlled where typically, if you're going to get that level of demand on the body, you knew something very intense. So do something that is almost no stress, Feli controlled and then allowing yourself to maybe do some sort of dual processing tasks with its reaction time and reading for use in a diner vision board. Whether if you have a laser on your head, you have to walk in a straight line while keeping that laser dot on a specific screen. I'm excited to see how be afar material or just something other domains. Whether it is, you know, motor learning or reeducation ofthe movement or vestibular therapy. I think this has a very unique place to really stress the body physiologically without meeting to do something that requires lots of equipment for having someone run up and down with a heavy sled. I'd be curious to hear some of your thoughts. I know you haven't had a huge opportunity dive into, but if I had a hand, you the the key to say Hey What do you see in the future for be fr in regards to not just the cognitive standpoint but ways you can use B a far outside of a physical training area. What kinds? Specific domains. You see it being utilised in >> we'LL definitely recovery. I love the fact of, you know, driving growth hormone and supplement incorrectly and letting people heal faster naturally. Ah, I think the ischemic preconditioning protocol is very underutilized and very not known very well, and he's skimming. Preconditioning is when we use one hundred percent occlusion either of the upper extremity or the lower extremity. We keep it on for five minutes and we do two rounds with a three minute rest in between. And I have used this to decrease pain and an athlete prior to going out and playing like a like a high level sport or doing plyometrics. We're doing other things where they're going to get muscle damage to that eye intensity exercise so you get the Anil Jesus effect around an injured tissue. But they really unique thing about the ischemic preconditioning is that it has been shown to reduce the amount of muscle damage that occurs due to the exercise. That's why they call it Preconditioning so we can utilize a prior to a game. We can use a prior to a plyometrics session. We can use it prior to a high intensity lifting session and reduce the amount of damage that occurs to the tissue. So we don't have such a long recovery time when we could continue to train at high levels. I think that that is probably the most exciting thing that I've seen. Absent of cognitive possibilities, I think it wise it on is I'd like to use with the lights. What do some lights? Teo, do some reaction time and do some, you know, memory training and things. And I love to torture my people and get them nice and tired. I think what's going to come around is all these mechanisms. They are what they are. But the true mechanism that I'm seeing is that fatigue is the primary factor. If I can fatigue you centrally and Aiken fatigue, you peripherally and the muscle that's for the adaptation occurs So although right now you know we always are on these. We have to use the specific sets and rats and weights and all these other things so true for the research, because we need to make it is homogenous as we can, but in clinic, if you're a patient, comes to me with a rotator cuff tear. I don't know what you're on, right, Max is for your external rotation. I've gotta guess. And so if I don't do exactly the right amount of weight, doesn't mean I'm not getting the benefit. Well, I'm telling you, anecdotally, that's not true. I just know that I have to take you to fatigue. And so if I'm off by a couple of wraps a big deal, I'm just not going to take you to failure. So I don't get the injury to the tissue that you normally would occur with lightweight to failure. I'm gonna get that fatigue factor. I'm going to get you to adapt, and I'm gonna get you bigger and stronger today than you were yesterday. That's the >> goal. Yeah, that's ah, that's a great way to put it because you're looking at again, you know, mechanisms in why things are occurring versus, you know, being stuck to literature. I have to use twenty percent. How do we find a way to fatigue this system and be fr being a component of that now, outside of blood flow research in train with your practice, it sounds It is quite holistic. Are there any specific areas that you see the other? That was other therapists other, You know, holistic environments could learn from outside of blood flow restriction training. What areas could they really? You know what advice such a safer that I would you give someone who's tried together holistic program to dive into outside of Sebi Afar? Is there any specific devices specific modalities supposed to specific means for a nutrition for that? >> I mean, if I was to try to put us you know what we're trying to dio. I would say that it's all about capacity versus demand. I want to try to maximize the capacity of the individual or the organism to exceed the demands that you're trying to apply to it. If we can do that, will keep you injury free will keep forming. If I allow those demands to exceed your capacity, you're going to get injured. So what can I do to maximize your capacity through nutrition, through exercise, through rest, through meditation, through prayer, through whatever that is through sleep? I think that that's really looking at the person as a whole. And if I can keep thinking about what are the demands that I'm applying? Teo, whatever tissue that is, and I can keep those demands just slightly below and try to increase the capacity, I'm going to get people better. And really, that's all I think about. Can that disk take how much pressure cannot take and what direction can I take it? Well, I'm gonna work at that direction and so we can do a little bit more and a little bit more and a little bit more, and I try to really make it simple for myself versus Reliant on a modality or anything else in that matter. Really, it's It's really just thinking about how much How much can they How much can they tolerate? And I'm goingto put restrictions on you so that you don't exceed that capacities That way that tissue can heal. And if it can't and you know, maybe that's referral to you know, some of the surgeons are non surgical positions that I work with is they may be fail my treatment. Most people can improve their capacity. We've seen eighty five year olds, Not just me, I'm saying in the literature. Improve their strength through resistance training. Eighty five. The body will always adapt. Ware not weak beings were not fragile, Weaken De stressed and we need to be stressed and we need to be stressed until the day that you put me in the grave. Otherwise we will get Sir Compagnia and we will degrade and our brain will become mush. And I just want to go that way. And I want help as many people that have the same philosophy, whether I'm doing it, one on one with somebody from teaching others. I want them now The same philosophy, Tio >> well, that makes total sense. I love the idea of we need to continually stress ourselves because do you feel like as we age, we have a Smith or belief that we can't do more, but we can't do more because we stopped doing more? Not because we can't. I work with an individual who are hey, hip replacement. Ninety six years old. He came back and four months later was working out again. And that alone was enough evidence for me to realize that it's not necessarily about, Oh, as I get older, I have to be this and we kind of have that thought process. As we age, we do less so we start to do left but find ways to stress the system in a way that can handle it right to the idea. What is the capacity, like you said? And what is their ability to adapt? Are there any specific ways that you assess an individual's capacity to handle load? Is that a lot of subject of understanding who they are? Further any other metrics you using whether we sleep tracking H R V for anything in that domain? >> I have not really done a lot of a lot of that. It's more about, you know what they tell me they want to do. You know you want to come in and you want a lift. Your grandkid. Well, that's That's our That's our marker. You want to come in and you want to do the cross that open. Okay, well, that's your marker. You want to come in, you want to run a marathon. That's your marker. You know, we could always find markers either of activities of daily living or they could be something out there. That's that's that. That's a goal. You know, Never don't half marathon, and I want to do that. So those were really the markers that I use haven't gotten into a lot of the other things. My environment, you >> know? I mean, I would love to have ah, >> whole performance center and a research lab and all that stuff and then, you know, maybe someday that with what I have and what I work with, it's it's more about just what the person wants to do and what is something fun for them to do to keep them active and healthy and from, and that really becomes the marker. And if it's not enough, you know, somebody had a e r physician committee as well. You know, I walk, you know, twenty or thirty minutes and then I walked, you know, at work all day. And I'm like Did It's not enough. And I sent him some articles that looking at physiological adaptation to walking and he's like, Yeah, you're right, it's not enough that I'm like, you know, we're a minimalist. Were like Okay, well, this is the vitamin C you need in order to be healthy, not the recommendations are so you don't get scurvy. A lot is a big difference between, you know, fending off disease versus optimal health. I'm out for optimal health, So let's stress the system to the point where we're not injuring ourselves. But we are pushing ourselves because I think there's such a huge physiological and but also psychological benefit to that. >> Yeah, this that's a great way to put it riff. Ending off disease, right? We're not. Our health care system is not very proactive. You have to have something go wrong for your insurance to take care of it. It's very backwards. That's unfortunate. Then we would like to be like. It's a place where let's not look at micro nutrients and you what were putting in her body as a means to what he says you avoided and scurry. Well, let's look at it from way to actually function and function relative to our own capacity in our own goals. Um, with that, are you doing blood work? I'm assuming of some sort. Maybe. >> Yeah, we do. Labs. Teo, look, att. A variety of different things. We don't currently do Hormonal therapy. We've got some partners in town that do that. We decided we wanted to stay in our lane and, you know, really kind of stick to what we do. And so we refer out any hormonal deficiencies. Whether you need some testosterone growth hormone is from other things. Estrogen, progesterone, whatever s. So we're not doing that currently, and we don't see ourselves doing that because we have some great partners that you a much better job than we would ever do. So I'm also a big believer in stay in your lane, refer out, make friends do whatever is best for the patient of the client. Um, because there's that pays way more dividends them than trying to dio everything you know all announce. Unless you have it already in the house that has a specialty. Yeah. No, that >> makes sense to find a way to facilitate and where you can excel. Um >> and I >> know you got a lot of the time crunch here. We have the wrap it up here for people listening. Where can we find more out about yourself? Where can we listen to you? What social media's are you on and one of those handles >> So instagram I'm under just my name Ed. Look, terra e d l e c a r a Facebook. Same thing. Just Ed. Look era Twitter and la Cara. Everything's just under Everclear. Really? Every Tuesday I do would be a far I call it BF our Tuesday I do kind of a lunch and learn fifteen twenty minutes on either a research article or protocol. If I got a question that was asked of me, I'll answer it on DH. That's an ongoing webinar. Every Tuesday I teach live be If our course is pretty much all over the world, you can go to my website at like keira dot com or d m e on any of the social media handles, and I'LL be happy to respond. Or you could just call my client body Launch Park City's dot com and give me a call >> and you're doing educational stuff that's on the B Afar Tuesday and your webinars well are those sign up websites for those, And if so, is it under your website and look era dot com? >> Uh, that's a great point. I really should have it home there. It's if you go on my social media you you'LL see it was all announced that I'm doing No, you know, whatever topic is I try to be on organized on it. I will put a link on my website. My website's getting redone right now, and so I put a link on there for be If our Tuesday under I have >> a whole >> be fr. It's called B F, our master class. It's my online BF our course on underneath there I'LL put a link. Tio might be a far Tuesdays >> gadget. Is there anything you wanna selfishly promote? Cause guys, that is an amazing resource. Everything he's talking about it it's pretty much goal anyway, You can hear more about where you work out any projects, anything that you'd be wanting others to get into or listen to that you're working on that you see, working on the future or anything you just want to share. >> I'm always looking at, you know, teaching you no more courses like love teaching. I love, you know, doing live courses. Esso I currently teach to be if our course I teach the instrument assist. Of course. Programming. I teach a, uh, a cupping movement assessment and Fossen course. So any of those things you can see on my website where I'm gonna be next? We're doing some cool research on recovery with a pretty well known pretty, well known uh, brand which I hope we'll be able to announce at some point. It looks like the afar Mike increased oxygenation in muscle tissue even with the cuffs on. So it looks like it looks like from preliminary studies that the body adapts to the hypoxic environment and my increased oxygenation while the cuffs are on. I'll know more about that soon, but that's pretty exciting. I'Ll release that when I when I can you know? Other than that if I can help anybody else or help a friend that's in Dallas that wants to see me while I'm here. I practiced from seven. AM almost till seven. P. M. Every night on. I'm also happy to consult either Via Skype. Er, >> um, by phone. >> Gosh. And you smart tools use a dotcom. Correct for the CFR cuffs. >> Yeah, you can either. Go toe. Yeah, you can go to my side of you connect with me. If you want to get it, I can get you. Uh, we could probably do a promotional discount. And if you want to get some cups but smart tools plus dot com is is the mother ship where we're at a Cleveland our We're promoting both our live courses and are and our material in our cups. >> I can vouch them firsthand. They're awesome. You guys do Amazing work and information you guys put out is really killer. I mean, the amount of stuff I've been able to learn from you guys and what you've been doing has helped me a ton. It's really, really awesome to see you guys promoting the education that way. And thank you for coming on. I really appreciate it. It was a blast talking Teo again. Guys, go follow him on Instagram. He's got some amazing stuff anyway. You can read about him, learn about him and what he's doing. Please do so and thank you. >> Thank you so much. I really appreciate it a lot of spreading the word and talking to like minded individuals and making friends. You know that I have kind of this ongoing theme of, you know, it's all about, You know, there's two things that we can control in our life. It's really what we put in our mouths and how much we move and people like you that air getting the word out. This information is really important that we've got to take control of our health. We're the only ones responsible. So let's do it. And then if there's other people that can help you reach out to them and and get the help you need. >> Well, that's great. All right, guys. Thank you for listening. Really Appreciate it. And thank you once again

>> And one topic. I want to get onto that. You mentioned it up and you opened the can of worms on this. So I blame you. His blood flow restriction training you called B F R. And Freeman listening chases the well, the most well versed individuals in this area. I was, I learned from him probably weekly on it, and I get studies from him. I used to be daily. Probably. It will lessen consistent now, because he's probably realizing that I can't read that fast. But I'm gonna chase to talk a little bit about some of protocols that you used be a far and harder you can use it for. Not yet. That's like development for individuals who might just be seeking an alternative way to work out whether the older adults, people who travel on the road and what it does physiologically for not only muscle growth, but the tendon thickness, like you said, and some of the other other >> protocols. Such a cellular swelling protocols. >> Yeah, yeah, I think you know, the one thing I would say about our previous of conversation with incense Thing is, I'm not telling people not to take him out like running around saying that that's the devil and all that. So I make sure that I'm not like one of those zealots about that stuff. It's it's just Hey, do you need it? You know, like this, that thought process is critical. Is this necessary? Not let me just problem cause I'm sore today, right? I think that's the caveat I want people to walk away with is that everything is necessary if it's necessary. And if it's not, is there a better alternative, or is it just part of life? Is that part of being a division one athlete or, you know, somebody who's recreational? E fit is you're going to feel a little sore and tired. Is it necessary to take that pill that made negatively? Thank you. So I think that's one thing I want to say, but kind of moving on to the >> You are not a dealer. I will vouch for it. Yeah. Interesting topic to talk about. And I give you credit for being open minded on both ends. Yes, everyone was concerned. >> Yeah, Yeah, I want to throw that out there. But I think with the Bee Afar stuff, it's I'm so ill. I've learned a lot from the man. Dr Headless Sarah. Hey, Works is Smart tools company, which they're just absolutely revolutionising how available and the education that's associative willful restrictions. So I you know, I I'm gonna kind of pass on that credit and say that, uh, they're really pushing the field forward, and I'm not affiliated with the company. I just think what they're doing is is fantastic work, because local restriction obviously has been around for a long time. It's not new, you know, we're not pretending it's new, but you know, it's really the availability of cuffs for sort of affordable prices has made it seem no refreshed and kind of a new life to it started in the late nineties in Japan, really doing a lot of the early research on it. Ah, lot of people started with tine off with different straps and and, ah, bands that they're just wrapping around their arms and looking for, you know, in a partial occlusion and some cases probably dangerously a full ischemia. But I think you saw it. And most recent years, with some of the owns recovery and the Delphi's, which come in a pretty high price tag and as I mentioned, smart tools has come out. They have much more affordable. I think it's, you know, a tenth of the price. And so now you're able tto. But these types of you know it's tool and everybody's hands. And I think it's is changing the landscape as faras, a modality that has multiple uses. And that's one thing when we talk sports science, we talked technology. You know, everything has a time in place. But when I look and evaluate and vet out technology, or whatever we're going to bring on is as a new resource. I always looked forward to have multiple uses, doesn't have a bang for your buck, and I think the blood flow restriction does. It's versatile. It can be used in rehab. You can be used to build muscle confused for strength. It can be used as, ah, activity potentially ater so you can use it. Potentially increase your subsequent performance with an acute time window. You can use it as a recovery tool, so I think the the utilization of it is still we're learning about it. There's still no definitive. Here's how this happens in this sequence but I think that's what Everything right? The human body. We're learning so much about it. But the science that's there has proven that low load with local restriction, where we're including one hundred percent venous return, but partially including arterial inflow. So there is blood flow going into the muscles and the periphery, but there is no blood flow returning, and so it creates a cooling effect. We're essentially you're gonna limit the availability of oxygen. You're going to decrease the pH and more acidic. You're goingto deplete foster creating stores. You're essentially going to run through the size of principle and use up small of slow twitch fibers and skip essentially rights of fast switch fivers with a low load or even a non loaded exercise. So I think when you talk about somebody who's got limitations, maybe they just had surgery. They can't run. They can't have the impulse of the impact that you would need or you would want to see toe. I kind of developed the most cultures. They come back. Little restriction is a great way because takes a low load exercise and you realise, is that restricted bowling and you get a subsequent fast, which adaptation? So you're you're simulating the big boys, the ones that move us, the ones that make us jump and run faster. Ah, and I think you're seeing time Windows of adaptation that air a sixth of the time Faster, you're getting strength. And I purchased three Adaptation in two weeks, whereas in traditional resistance training it was taking eight to twelve. Um, so And when you talk about, I had an athlete rolled her ankle and I want to make sure that they're not having atrophy is they walk around in a boot. I need to make sure that the muscles around the knees and the hamstrings, the name of the elders, critical drivers and sport aren't just wasting away. So we would have athletes obviously in the rehab sitting, doing protocols to develop muscle but also just sitting the act of just sitting with occlusion passively not doing anything has been shown to cut atrophy by fifty percent. So it's fantastic because it's not invasive. You're not doing anything into him. They're just sitting. So, uh, we don't you know, promote them to play on their phones constantly, but they can sit there and have their phone out and, you know, twenty minutes goes by and they just hopefully of, you know, benefited their return to play and a, you know, a faster, more efficient way than just sitting around. So lots of lots of utility for it. >> Interesting. So for those not familiar bloodflow restriction training the way it works, you gotta cuss. Arms hopefully cast. Not just, uh, elastic band, you tying on. But that's how I started originally from Kat to training out in Japan. So it's a cuff. The attach is approximately on the whim, typically by the shoulder or up along the thigh, and it includes the amount of blood so reduces the amount of blood. Don't go into the muscle, which then allows these Siri's of physiological effects that chase alluded to. That is a difference between Venus and arterial occlusion and chase in. Regards to that were Some of the specifics are for people who aren't as familiar with blood flow. You rattle off a bunch of stuff regarding blood flow and from the adaptations of it. But people who aren't familiar with it you measure the occlusion through Doppler. I believe Smart tools uses a remote Doppler. They're attached to you on the distal limb and everyone using this, what percentages do use? How do you know what you too much occlusion that to type that not tight enough. And we're the protocols that you use once you have the right conclusion for that limb to increase some of these hypertrophy, some muscle growing activities or, you know, just sitting there play on your phone activities that reduces hypertrophy for your athletes. >> Yeah. So what you're doing is you're actually going to take an external Doppler or something that's gonna allow you to magnify the sound of the pulse, right? So if you take radio pulse, you know, right here you would replace the Doppler on it. You would actually be able to hear the heartbeat as it from service, >> due stew, stew, sh >> and up top. They're wearing the cuff. You're going to slowly start to inflate it. It gets tighter, tighter, tighter. And you will eventually get to a point where that, uh, false will start to fade of >> this dish dish. >> And it comes to a point where it's non existent. And so that's when you know that there's been full arterial occlusion that's there one hundred percent. There is no blood flow into that arm. There's no blood flow out. It is included. And so research has shown that basically anywhere from thirty percent in ninety percent, you're gonna have the same amount of occlusion. So if I was explained that, ah, a little bit more detail is so I'm going to take that one hundred percent occlusion number. So if you've ever done your blood pressure and the typical one of perfect blood pressure's one twenty of Brady and that's the same device we're going to use I mean its's stigmata. I'm anemometer the tough one to say, um and you're going to get a number up there like, let's just say two fifty. Alright, so that's your hundred percent occlusion. What again research has shown is that in thirty percent of two. Fifty all the way up to ninety percent of two. Fifty, that's the sweet spot or including arterial, that actually doesn't improve occlusion as the higher you go. So we stick to fifty percent. So, you know, fifty per cent of two fifty is one twenty five. And, ah, you're goingto have Justus. Much of you did it at ninety percent. And really, the differences is pain perception. Because if you start getting up one hundred percent inclusion and telling somebody to exercise, they're not going to like it. It's not going to feel good. So it's a nice sweet spot of saying, Hey, we have included Arterial but not fully restricted, but we have researched it, Venus. But we can still move and be act on DSO with that what you're really looking to do. There's a thirty fifteen fifteen fifteen protocol that's seen pretty commonly, but ultimately you just need to fatigue the muscles. Ito have a low load exercise that's done for high volume, typically fifteen plus wraps for multiple sets with a minimal respirations. So what we're trying to do is we're trying Teo, allow for blood to be flung, pumped into the muscle. You're goingto actively, you know, contract. Over time, it's going to stimulate fast twitch fibers. You're going to rest for a very short period. More blood flow is going to go to the area. It's gonna keep getting more acidic. It's going to keep activating Mohr fast twitch, and you're going to just repeat that. And so I mean it really, really magnifies the response of typically a weight or resistance that would be almost no impact on you at all. You would have no performance benefit from using a weight that light. So you can really use it as you know, when I was in a rehab setting with an athlete who has very little capability to handle load. Or you could use it as a finisher in your body builder. And you wantto stimulate ah, muscle group that's lagging, and you really want to build it up. Ah, it's the fantastic thing I think about It is it's a minimally damaging activity. And what I mean by that is that you're gonna have a dramatic reduction and creating stores of CK levels. Lt's myoglobin. You're not going to get the same mechanical breakdown that you see what too difficult resistance training when we start talking about internal load and H R V. If you were to substitute and in season lift with the Afar, you're still going to get strengthened and have virtually adaptation without the potential systemic load. That may be a typical resistance training session. Does the now you start talking about minimizing, uh, internal responses? Bye. Still getting annotation, so it's it's pretty, pretty amazing. >> Yeah, that's that's something. So I've seen personally as well. I use smart tools, smart tools. I'm not feeling it with a big fan of whom, because they made it affordable for individuals like you, of myself actually use them. So we're talking about occlusion. We're talking about reducing amount of arterial occlusion, but not with the amount of Venus inclusions here allowing blood to pool. It's an extent you get large amounts of violation. You increase the amount of capital area is in that area, but you're also not breaking down the muscle in the same way that you would otherwise. So we're lifting a heavy load. You have the fibers himself begin to essentially tear apart. Your body has to rebuild these, but now we're increasing hypertrophy, so growing them also, without having to have this break down response in the muscle itself. But that being said, the loads that you're using are also twenty percent of your one rat max. So a very, very light load you're using to fatigue. How does that affect the tendon itself? Because one thing I've noticed personally, this is I'm not I'm not saying you should do this, Okay, this is what I did and maybe stupid or whatever you wanna call it. I had a really bad Tanaka, the issue of my knee where I couldn't play basket. I couldn't go upstairs well, and I didn't be afar. Traditional trailer at tempo work. But when I started doing be fr low level plyometrics when I started inducing some of the shearing forces on the tendon to increase adaptation that area that otherwise might not be there with a >> low load, >> I started Teo see much better results in my knee compared to some of the tempo work. Do you do anything specifically with B a far that might target attendant outside of the traditional thirty wraps, fifteen wraps, fifteen reps. Fifteen reps with >> a low load. >> Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I think you know some of the ice of measures that we talked about when you were working in Stanford and having that Anil Jessica effect. So having the ability to have the mitigation on acute windows of what, fifteen, forty five minutes, but also the college and proliferation. So you're getting an increase in human growth hormone that there's like one hundred seventy percent times greater after ah workout, which we know. H gh doesn't necessarily build bigger muscles, but it does stimulate collagen growth. So when you're having somebody who is maybe coming back from a ruptured Achilles or another, you know IDA cirrhosis issue, You know, it's a great way to help promote and environment and maybe in a vascular area and the kind of forces, nutrients and a hormonal shift that may promote a more appealing environment. I think you know, we talked about it briefly. The training piece, I think you know, the more that you can start to get people into. I'm not overly dramatic, sport specific person, but I think the more you can get people into activities that are going to be replicated on the field, know whether it's sled pushes and walks or whether it's, you know, having some type of, um, you know, activity. If your picture where you're getting your arm through these range of emotions that are going to be necessary while using the inclusion is actually gonna promote a lot of ongoing benefit. I think toe rehabilitate the area on a functional manner and develop not only the musculature, but also remote the properties around that specific tissue that needs to be healed. So I think there's some really cool things that are just now kind of being played with Just because we can actually die. Elin, the proper collusions. We can actually die. Elin. What we want to see happen with you whether it's, uh, some of the cells, whole protocols that we're doing are these giving preconditions. Bread falls. Where were haven't athletes sit for extended period time passively with their occlusion of set? And then they're gonna reap, refuse. We're in, Allow blood flow back, and we're going to do that repeated intervals prior to activity and see a potential for increased power output. Oxygen. Connectix. The research is pretty amazing with some of the human reconditioning and that they're saying, um, increase time to exhaustion, decrease time trial performances. But they don't really know why. You know, there isn't like a clear mechanisms for performance gains that's been totally identified just yet. There has been stuff where it's shown to attenuate lacked eight levels. So you're obviously no cellular. Respiration is enhanced because you're not getting that amount of hydrogen present in the blood. So you may be potentially more efficient energy user using more, more fat and oxygen, so that's great there. But I think you know, as the research are sketching out, that piece is that's one thing that I'm looking at doing for my research focus for school. Is that potentially a shin piece? If I'm already going to be sitting around before a game, or I'm gonna have time between events like a track and field event are, you know, Cool event. And I know I can sit here passively, not use energy, provide a stimulus to the body that's gonna potentially open up neural pathways or physiological mechanisms to increase contract ability of the muscles. I'm going to, then maybe get that extra tenth of a second. I'm going to throw an extra, you know, a couple feet on the javelin. I'm going to do whatever I need to dio potentially at a higher level. I think that's really as we're pushing towards performance. Why do you take, you know, choose during the game like you want increase performance, you want to run longer, and I think this is going to add one more a little layer to it. That from an investment piece is minimally invasive is minimally changing to their to their schedule. They're not. They don't have to do anything crazy. They feel good. And that's the biggest thing. Is the anecdotal feedback on it is man, I feel great. I feel like I have to I don't have to do a full warm up. I feel like I can just kind of get out there, move around. We still have him do stuff, but they just feel like they've warmed up faster. And I think of that piece is gonna be really cool to see if we can demonstrate some of empirical evidence on it. >> Yeah, that I'm excited to see the research, >> and I know you're working hard on it. >> It's kind of a great stop. Making Brava kind really brings us full circle because you look at be fr it, increases their sit in the area and lacked a production and increases economic nervous system arousal, which has been shown both to increase cognitive abilities. Um, neural plasticity and ability to enhance memory. And so why you're doing this? It's also the only prime main the body for the coming activity. We also prime ing the body is a hole in regards to it's mental capacity and not just the muscular area. And so when you start looking at that, you know, full system, the human body and how we can talk about a little bit here, some dynamical systems where you know the body is really complex. What happens in one area affects another. You can't differentiate between your physical mental side because the physical side of the Afar is now enhancing your mental side. Just like your perception. Ten hands a workout. And so you have feedback up and feedback back down. And that's just a great, you know, highlight You brought up because now it's really inclusive. Were we're so often thinking this isolated manner. Oh, if we've been to this or we run this, this will happen. But we don't think about it in this recursive loop manor where what I did to my muscle, right, our muscle releases these myo times. I go talk to our brain, which then go back and talk to our muscle. And we have the endocrine system working together to orchestrate this all and just the whole idea of be a farm for a game It's not just right the muscles and the scheming Preconditioning, but it's also a fact that you're putting the person in a state That's more conducive. Two performance itself, because so often and this isn't to go on a rant and I apologise. And this is something you buy a top about, right? Avoiding the sympathetic states, All right, we don't want to be sitting there before game doing deep belly breathing because we need to be ready to roll. There's a reason why you get excited in these situations and a really excellent full loop example. How Don't comes together there. >> Yeah, I think one last little piece with that, too, is black. Tate has been shown and exercise of a specific lactate now to have been associated with BDNF, right? So that brain derived neurotrophic factor that exercise stimulates like Miracle Gro for the brain, >> and that if >> you're sitting around watching, you know, lecture for an hour, get up to ten SWATs. Walk around, and all of a sudden you have a renewed focus. And so with that to your point of it's all connected is you have an athlete who essentially is going to get a benefit from that. But we're also, you know, and there they'll never watch this, so I'll say it. I do planting that placebo. My burbage is really, really careful. And hey, just so you know, you wear this attempt ten, fifteen minutes before you do some ISOs, your ankle will feel better. It has an ability to mitigate. Think like him. Planting that sense of this is gonna work because we'll see Bo Effect works. We know it does. So there's a little bit of, you know, mix of art and science and how we imply these technologies and saying they like, Hey, Logan, just say no, you wear this before that game, your ankle will feel better. You're gonna feel looser, going to hell faster and just letting them roll with that and don't need to tell him anything else. And I think that to your point of it's all connected can then maximise whatever intervention you want to, then increase performance. >> Yeah, and I'll avoid a rant here. I'll keep it short, I promise. But what you hit on? Perfect. Especially since that. Look at some of studies regarding attendance, they'll look at it and see that the timid itself is healthy, yet they feel pain, and they've done lost studies where they're saying an external stimulus. So something like a metre gnome in the background going Ping Ping Ping and you're focused on the stimulus instead of the pain. And you now begin to de associate your knee with pain because the stimulus and regards to the tempo that's going on the background, you're doing it. Why didn't exercise So now? Because you're focused on this external stimulus fall during exercise, you begin to disassociate pain with your, you know, near tendon during that movement and just really shows how coupled the system is and how our brain talks your body body. And if we perceive that we're healthy right? You said, Oh, mixing the heart and the science while you're mixing the science of the science, right? Your you understand that perception is reality is not necessarily. We like to call it art because there's no number to put behind it. Really. It's, you know, the science that our body is deeply into connected and how are neurons from the brain talked to our muscles? Are muscles tough back to our brain are all essentially one and how everything from your nutrition, your perception to your stress from school, you're emotional state, whether you got a text message from someone that made you upset all effects, your internal load off the body itself. And regardless of what external only put and no matter how hard you want to work, if your internal system isn't able to handle the stimulus they're going to put on it in terms of the load you're going to give then what we're doing is it? It's really falling short of what we're actually trying to accomplish because we're essentially using external load to infer what's going on. But there's so many things that go on inside the body outside of external load that we're only using one system to monitor the internal system. We're kind of I was a falling short, but not maybe doing all that we can. >> D'oh Yeah, I mean, I think the you know not to rant myself, but that's one of the biggest mistakes that we as a sissy practitioners make, is the assumption with general adaptation Centrum theory that you're getting people and that they're adapting at the rate into the dose that you think is appropriate that we're making that assumption as to where they're at. So when we say, Oh, they're at home, you know, stasis. And we're going to apply to weeks of ah loading scheme, and then we're gonna unload, and then we're gonna push it higher because they're going to super compensate. I think that is a load of crap. I think that we want that to be the case because we want to feel justified and feel good ofwhat we d'oh. But in many cases, you really have to dial in all the factors associated with overreaching all the factors associated with performance and mix them and have checks and balances to see truly, if somebody is where you think they are and if you got them where they are and if not, what was the reason why was there an energy insufficiency? Was there a Micronesian problem? Was there associated stress damaging the functioning, The A access All those things have you know they come in to play, but we are so rigid and and a lot of our thinking me included Holy, guilty. This we work in four to six week block. So yeah, you know, my own load is gonna be a three week three. Well, maybe your own unload should be a week nine. You know, like, how do you know that they're not ready for Maura. Maura, Amore. Um, you know, so that I think that assumption of not necessarily taking into consideration that connectedness between all these systems Ah, can get us into trouble to make us have false positives. I think I think we really congrats pawn the stuff that's not there >> now, that's that's couldn't be said better because we like to make it simple, because we can understand Simple. And when we make it complex, we realize we don't really understand that much. But the more we appreciate as complex, the more we can appreciate how applying something simple, like we think a load ten push ups really isn't as simple as it may be. And that at times, can cause paralysis by analysis. Where you have so many things >> going on at once and to consider I'm not saying that we just sit there and measure every single subsystem. I know you're not either, >> but the idea that we need to appreciate that and see where can we maybe refer. Teo, Turn, Tio. That isn't just in the lane off. How much weight do we lift? How much low do we give someone But what other factors could be involved and that athletes life. That's not getting the results that we think this external load should be leading. Tio, it's a great check engine light, because now we have this external load. Hey, I expected to be here in three months, and you're not there. That's okay. Who knows whose fault it is? No one's. But the idea is that now we can turn different people because we didn't see the expected results. We can dive a little deeper, and that's allowing us to utilize our resource is whether it's a friend. You know, a doctor. You know, another practitioner, you know, to help arm us with the information to be the best that we can be. >> Yeah, I think that's what the external load comes in, right. You gotta know if they're not meeting expectations or the desired outcomes. No. Are they typically matching people in practice? You know that are similar positional demands. Are they typically being asked to do something that isn't looking normal? That would then we can kind of backtrack and see how they were doing it. What the fuck? Jack is associated with an internal load work, and again, we don't. We don't monitor everything. We don't think it's necessary. We try and find what's appropriate for his team and scenario. But I think again, if you're mindful and you know you're athletes and you know the scenario of what you're trying to put them in, you can then kind of use your your coaching, I to say, Okay, what are the things that I think may be influencing? Yeah, providing Malad a patient, you know, orange, the desired stimulus, you know, desired outcome. Now, what are we doing to them that we should be seeing or think we should be saying. And if I know them, what is essentially a confounding variable to that? >> Yeah, No, that's perfect. You don't assess everything. A because you can't and be known as time. But you assess what's pertinent and you're aware of what's apartment and you act out the check engine light and facilitate where you can now, well said, because I think both ends resettle. Let's be so simple and just do this or let's on Lee do this aspect over here. But when you take in consideration, all of it, you allow yourself to be the best you can be in your position that you're in because you're not trying to solve everything. You just try to facilitate where you can. Yeah, perfect for Chase. And I want to hold you up too long, and I really appreciate you being here. I want to wrap it up before finishing up here. I got, I guess, two questions for you. I didn't send them to you ahead of time so that I can if you don't have a quick answer, that's fine. The first one is it's pretty simple. I'm not going. I don't mean Resource is in terms of O go to Pub Med or go to this paper. But are there any individuals out there that you can possibly listen to or find that you have found the very informative and not just in terms of all that's good information, but sometimes change the way you think about how you do your job. >> I'm talking to you right now. It's a lot of my my thoughts and know how I address of, you know, some of the the bio mechanics and physics of what we're doing. You know, it's definitely not an area that I'm strong in, and I think you've done a great job of putting information out there for the public tio toe, you know, be able to digest an easy manner, man, you know, a public resource. You know, this may sound kind of cheesy and maybe a little bit of roast sci fi, but I still re t Nation and Goto like all those you know, you know, Jim Wendler sites and freed all the Westside stuff. And, you know, I think you can't isolate sports science and sail. It's just Dad are, Oh, it's just, you know, pumping out research out of the lab or Oh, it's physiology or urge technology. I think each practitioners gonna have their own flavour and what they like and what they bring to the table. And I think that we need to cater to that. Each person should say, Hey, this is what I'm good at. These are my skills. I want to learn more about tax and if X s o happens to be baseball and throwing and overhead athletes than you're going to find the Mike Ryan holds air crises and really dive into that. And if you want to know about traditional pure ization schemes and force plays, you're gonna look at the stone stuff. You're gonna look at half, you're going to look at people who are early pioneers in it. So I think, you know, I don't have ah, necessarily a one person go follow, but it's more of a question to the question is what do you want to know about? What do you like? What's something that's really really, you know, kind of hits the button for you and then just start Googling stuff start, you know, typing these these keywords in and people will start popping up. And I think that's my development has come has jumped. The greatest, I guess Leaves is when I started diving into these rabbit holes of what I want to learn about right now and just saying for the next two weeks, I'm going all in on, you know, let's see saturation lost muscle from Samo, too. You know, I'm just learn everything I can about my loving and hemoglobin and mad a crit and all that stuff. So it's really more about finding what you want to know at that time and just doing a deep dive and then finding something else, doing a deep that and before you know it, you're times years to that and you have a, you know, a well rounded hopefully, you know, face of knowledge to pull from. >> And my last question for you chase. And this might be a tough one for you to answer the that you are the ghost of social media. Yeah, That the king of the King of trolling my page. You know that you are interested. People are interested in following up on what you're doing. Where can they find more information about yourself? What links or handles either. Twitter, Instagram. Would you advise him to look up into and keep a tab on yourself? >> So the only thing I'm using, as I have on Instagram and at Underscore Chase felt so It's It's simple. It's like toe like to troll you and fight in every now and then. But, ah, that's basically what I got. I got a couple post up there. But maybe maybe if, uh, I get a little help, we'll see how it Ah, how it grows. >> Yeah. I highly advise you guys following him because we continue to push him to post more stuff. I shouldn't be the only one privileged to get his text messages at obscure hours, highlighting some interesting topics I would love for it to be shared publicly. So I'm not being the third party siphoning off his knowledge and posting there. Yeah, well, they could chase. I really appreciate you hanging here and be able to be our first guest again here. The reason why I wanted you on first you quite a bit played a big role in my development and continue, Tio. And we all wish the best for you. Um, it really was great to have you here and thank you. >> All right, man, I appreciate it was a lot of fun. >> All right. Awesome. Well, thank you guys for listening again. My handle here is strong. Sorry. At strong underscore by science. I did that all wrong. It's at strong. Underscored by underscore science. I should know my own handled by now. I use Instagram, I think my Twitter's handles at strong underscore science. Who knows? We'll make a link to it. We'll be sharing this podcast here shortly with different clips as well. For those of you who don't have the attention span to listen to an hour toy mint podcast will die some of this up. So thank you guys for listening. Really appreciate it and take care.

(electric upbeat music) >> Live from Washington D.C. It's theCUBE. Covering Inforum DC 2018. Brought to you by Infor. >> Well welcome back here on theCUBE along with Dave Vallante I'm John Walls as we wrap up our coverage here at Inforum 18, Washington D.C. Nations capital. Again just saying which we are between Capital Hill and the White House here. And just on top of the show floor Dave had a chance to check out the goings on down. So good feeling here. Good vibe on the floor. Good feeling on the Keynote stage. I know tomorrow, good lineup as well but just your thoughts as we wind up here on day one. Well I think Charles Phillips is an awesome host. I mean first of all he looks great up there. He's tall. He's thin. He's got has this awesome suit on. I mean the guy is just dressed impeccably. Add to that his mind. I mean he's a very clear thinker, a clear strategist. He's able to articulate the value, the strategy that Infor has and has had for quite some time and the value that it brings to customers. So I really like listening to him. He's not a hype machine. Unlike, you know, so many in this industry who are incredibly successful, Larry Ellison, Marc Benioff you know others you know love to hype what they do. Charles throws a little, few little jokes in there but very low key as we heard this morning. And it seems to be working. I mean as a private company they can write their own narrative. Alright if this were a public company people would be hammering them on the debt. They'd be knocking them on the top-line growth. Cause the Income Statement, you know, from a growth stand point is not exploding but the SAS pieces of the business are. So but you know Wall street, they would be picking at this scabs. So as a private company, they're not subject to the 90-day shot clock. And so as a result they can write their own narrative which I think is incredibly important for this company right now because they have a large installed base of customers that they're trying to move to their new platform. Move, migrate you know, those are scary words for customers. And so the competition, this is why. Why is Oracle coming at Infor so much? Two reasons there may be others. But number one. Infor is hurting Oracle. They're taking share away and Oracle you know, think that they should have 100% market share. Same with SAP. The second is that it sees an opportunity to fight back you know the best, the best defense is a good offense. And so they're trying to go after those customers that Infor's trying to woe to their new platform. And any time you moving it's an opportunity. You know we saw this with big acquisitions like Dell and EMC. You know EMC took their eye off the ball, others came in allowed a company like NetApp to come back. So you see that certainly HP, when it was splitting up, got distracted so you see that and so now what's key about sessions like this, events like this, is it allows Infor to stay relevant. To put a relevance story in front of its customers. So what is that story? It's got a platform. It's got a full stack. It's investing in R and D. It's innovating with technologies like AI. It's building organic innovation. And it's bringing in inorganic through acquisition. Things like Birst for modern BI and injecting that throughout its application portfolio. It's got a full-suite. It was interesting somebody said we had to make a bet, do we go full-suite >> Or best-of-breed. >> Or do we go best-of-breed. >> Right. >> I would argue by going micro-vertical they can claim both. It's very hard to be both best-of-breed and both full-suite. I mean I would agree if you just want to do one thing, you're probably going to do that one thing better than anybody else. And so I'll grant you that. But I think that the balancing act is how do you stay like best-of-breed or near best-of-breed with that full-suite? And I think Infor's found the answer with micro-verticals. And bringing in technologies like AI. Was very impressed with all the robotic process automation talk this morning. That's going to be a huge business it's already. I mean it's growing like crazy. So if I'm an Infor customer and I'm an old Legacy customer I'm thinking: "Wow these guys are really making "some interesting investments." "Yeah I got to spend, "and I got to maybe migrate "but if I don't I'm going to get digitally transformed "by somebody else." And they didn't actually put a lot of scare tactics in there but maybe that's something they should, might want to add in, is some examples of customers that are, that have been left behind. But maybe that's bromide in the industry today. But I think that, that relevance message came through load and strong and I think it's critical for this company. >> I think interesting just to start with the Keynotes, and then we heard it throughout the various guest that we had here on the program today was that it's a compony that really knows who it is. At least that's the feeling I get. Knows where it's going. So it inspires a lot of confidence, right. He does, Charles does. The company does. And they're just kind, they're just real comfortable in their own skin for one. And two, they're committed to other principles outside of business. I'm talking about the diversity and inclusion. That's just not flab, that's really who they are. That's their DNA. I think there's an appealing aspect there too. >> Yeah and so. And then we heard a lot, you know, the Coke industries investment, two and a half billion. I said two billion earlier it's two and a half billion. That money didn't show up in the Balance Sheet, okay. So again. You get to write your own narrative as a private company. So there's still three hundred and thirty-eight million on the Balance Sheet you know, still quite a bit of debts. So again, Wall Street would be picking at that but doesn't even come up, at this event. Customers aren't really asking those questions. They want to see a company that's viable. This company is clearly viable. They have thrown off a lot of cash that's why private equity and organizations like Coke Industries are interested in them. Because it's cashflow positive, they see a lot of, you know, financial upside for this company. So that's kind if cool. They other things is Hook & Loop the Design firm that Infor bought you know, several years ago we heard how that's evolving and becoming a fundamental part of, not just design but product development. I think that's pretty impressive. Many companies are doing that now. These guys got in first and so they're a little bit ahead of the game. I think they're, they're innovating in a way that I think has ripple effects for customers. I mean the customer experience. You hear a lot about diversity at this company, I mean this is not to me lip service. >> Right. >> You know Charles is really serious about this stuff. And he's got the platform to do it and he's investing in it. And so, you know, you see a lot of substantive examples. And I think that will pay off. It will pay dividends. The Four Horsemen now have been sort of evolving. There's a succession planning with the Four Horsemen, right. Because Stephan and Duncan have, have moved on. You know they've left the company or at least they're not front and center anymore. They're LinkedIn still says they're working with Infor so they're somehow affiliated. But they don't have operating roles. It's clear. But Charles and Pam still do. And so you're seeing an evolution there. We're going to ask the head of HR tomorrow about that. We heard from, you know Martine, back to the diversity. Corey Tollefson talking retail. You know again, Micro industry. You know, we know, he didn't mention it, but you know guys like Macy's, Safeway, these are decent sized customers of Infor. We're seeing the partner ecosystem grow. We had Capgemini on today. Grant Thornton is out there. You know Deloitte and others that. >> Accenture is out here I think. >> Accenture's out here, yeah. So that's, that's important. Again I think, I think Coke Industries helped nudge some people in there. "Like Hey, we just made a big investment." "We're a big client of yours." >> Didn't hurt. >> "You're going to pay attention." (laughing) >> "And find some opportunities." Probably said: "Look it's got to be subsidize, "It's got to be a win-win but we want you to look in earnest." And I think others have. I've heard that there's been multi-million dollar deals that these guys have have catalyzed. Kevin Curry from Public Sector, a critical space for Infor, he has almost a thousand customers here and Amazon has a huge presence in Public Sector and they're drafting off of that. And then of course we ended with Raul from AWS which was fun interview. AWS is obviously winning in so many different fronts. Big partnerships with guys like VMware. Obviously number one in Cloud, others I guess if you add up all the revenue are number one. But really Amazon's number one in cloud. >> That's right. >> We know they're tops. Because they're in a. For their serve market, which is infrastructure as a service, they're by far the leader and they started the whole thing. Tomorrow we got Charles Phillips coming on. We got Pam Murphy the two, what I consider founders of Infor. They weren't right, but they were the founders of, the new co-founders of the new Infor if you will. And some customers coming on. So really excited to be here. >> Big day, look forward to it. >> Yeah. >> And we, unfortunately I can't share this with you at home but Venus Williams on the Keynote stage tomorrow. Looking forward to that. Talking about the human potential. Shackles going to be here. Had a last minute cancellation so they've Venus Williams in and talk about really thematically, very consistent to her life story with what Infor is talking about here this week. And we're glad to have the opportunity to be here with you throughout the week, and the show. So that's it for day one here at Inforum 18. From Dave Vallante, I'm John Walls, thanks for joining us here on theCUBE and we'll see you back here tomorrow from Washington D.C. (electric upbeat music)

>> Announcer: Live from Las Vegas, it's The Cube, covering IBM Think 2018, brought to you by IBM. >> Welcome back to The Cube. We are live in sunny Las Vegas at the inaugural IBM Think 2018 event. I'm Lisa Martin with Dave Vellante. Dave, this weather has got to beat Boston hands down, right? >> It was beautiful yesterday, about 15 degrees in Boston, snowy. >> So you thawed out since you've gotten here? >> I took the snowshoes out, actually. Life makes lemons. >> Exactly, and we have another cold-weather guest who's probably thawing out as well, Ranjana Young, the senior vice president of Enterprise Data Services from Northern Trust, welcome. >> Thank you, thanks for having me. >> We're excited to chat with you. You have a role at Northern Trust, and your mission is all-around data, five-core competencies, including data governance and stewardship, data quality, master data management, enterprise integration with data platforms. Tell us a little bit about your role, how long you've been doing that, and really what this focus on data is enabling for Northern Trust. >> Sure, I want to talk first about our mission as you had mentioned. I think it was critical to establish a broad mission for Northern Trust. We wanted to make sure that we establishing an enterprise data program that enabled our customer needs and overall our customer experience, but also truly helped support our regulatory needs that we had, and it was critical to establish those two as the main goals, not just one or the other. And then the role, I call myself a change agent because establishing capabilities that you talked about, it is difficult to do, with a lot of legacy that we have. The firm has been in existence for 128 years To establish a data-driven culture was very different. I think we were known to do provide good business solutions, but a lot with the gut, given that we were good at it, but how do you make sure that you change that culture and have a relationship managers and others really think differently and use data to provide those solutions to our clients. >> I remember when I met Inderpal Bhandari, I'm sure you know him, and he said that he has a framework for a data leader, and he said there are five things a data leader has to do to get started, and three are in parallel, or sorry, three are linear, two are in parallel. I don't know if you've heard this rap, but I'd like to sort of explore them and see how your three are generally. He said you start with understanding how the organization monetizes data, not directly, maybe selling data, but how it contributes, and then the next one was sort of data access and then data quality. Those are the sort of sequential activities, and then the parallel ones were form relationships with a line of business and then re-skill. So those are his five. How did you approach it, what was different, what was similar, what were some of the challenges that you had in doing that? >> Sure. If I had to think about kind of, to correlate some of the components of the strategy, skills is an important thing. When I started establishing the team three years ago, it was critical that we had to bring some of the core skills within the firm because they had the business capabilities, they understood the systems, they understood kind of the skeletons that were in the closets and knew the culture and also embraced the challenges and still could find solutions. And then you had to bring external folks that really had the capability to drive that change, had the mastery of management skills to really support and set up an account domain and a party domain, a reference data domain, especially an asset domain, et cetera. So we had to look at kind of a conglomerate of individuals to do that. And then if you look at kind of where was the starting point in terms of really establishing the program was, we were going through a transformation to really re-platform a lot of our legacy, whether it was our valuation system or our cash platform, others, and data was a thread throughout all of those programs, so it was critical to establish and think and take bite-sized chunks, it was important to think about, okay, throughout all the programs, what is the important data that we could kind of understand, so we focused quite a bit on initially looking at critical data and looking at critical data from a master data perspective, so asset data, which is very critical to the work that we do on the institutional side. As you know, we had a management asset servicing company. Data is an asset for us, we enrich the data. We provide services around that today, and have been, and so embedding data governance through that process was important, and also our clients were really looking for the enriched data but also were looking for clean information but also were looking for where did that data come from? Where does the definition of this data? So kind of giving them that external catalog of here's the data, but here's the enriched data and here's the metrics for data quality around it, and then here's the definitions for it. So to some extent, that drove change because of customers were looking for it, and a lot of the capabilities that were foundational to the firm, we're starting to externalize, especially the meta-data catalog, et cetera. >> So if I could play that back, so you started the team, all right, you said, okay, I need to build a team. I think I heard that, and then the data quality, and then presumably, okay, who has access to this data? Is that about right? >> So I started with the mission to say, we have to do this for both arms, the left arm being our customer experience and making sure that we change the way we're doing our work there, or enhance the work so that our customer experience was better, and then obviously the regulatory, make sure that we need the regulatory. So for that, we needed five core competencies. We knew that we had to establish a role of the steward, a role of the custodian, so the team started to become very critical then, and then we knew that we had some gaps in our master data management capability, a complete gap in having integrated data platforms. I notice I've talked a little bit about we established a whole strategy and architecture for ING. I totally relate to how we had to do the same. Each silo did their own particular thing. The management did their own thing. >> David: By data. >> The institutional side did their own thing. Asset management was, I would say, a lot more mature. So I would say if you were to think about it, it's establishing the mission and establishing the team. >> And then, just one last follow-up. The services that you're providing, data services, those are delivered through your organization, the IT organization, what's the practice? >> We have a partnership, a very collaborative partnership that we work together. The technology team does all the build for the work, we work collaboratively to kind of build a strategy of what solutions need to be first versus later, given the client priorities and our institutional side, our business unit priorities, so that's a collaborative effort, working together. >> So speaking of collaboration, you mentioned earlier that it was really key to have both the veterans within Northern Trust and their expertise that you said kind of the skeletons, that they know where things are buried, as well as that maybe external, you might say more fresh perspective. You also talked about, we chatted before we went live, about governance. Seems like what you guys have done is kind of flipped governance from being viewed as potentially an inhibitor to really empowering, being an empowering capability. Can you tell us how you've leveraged data governance to empower a data-driven culture within a business that is 128, I think, years old, you said? >> Yes, that's right. So, for us, I think that while we were establishing the program, it was very critical to understand kind of the challenges on the institutional side first because they had the maximum number of challenges with data. Again, because we're an asset servicing company, a data is an asset, we enrich that information and provide that information, but what was happening was it was taking us so much longer to provide these solutions to our clients, so we've embedded, now, the data governance framework as a part of that solution, and our clients are seeing the value, so if you look at one of the customers that we're working with, we actually have externalized our catalog where they understand now what data that they're receiving, and you're speaking the same language, and that was not the case before. But again, as I said, if we didn't do the foundational work of cataloging the information, understanding what the data is, where the data is, what the data assets are, we just couldn't have done that, so it's really paying off because of that. >> How has that affected your ability to be prepared for GDPR, which obviously went into effect last year, the fines go into effect in May of this year? What was the relationship there? >> So we have worked very, very closely with our chief privacy officer, and we've really done a phenomenal job of identifying where our highly sensitive data assets are. We're in the process of cataloging all of them through the unified governance framework that we've established, so we leverage IBM's IGC NIA to do all that work, and the lineage all the way to the authentic source, which is something the regulators definitely are looking for, so are we fully, completely done yet? No, so we're in that journey, and with unstructured data, we're looking at discovery tools to kind of provide that. We have a solution that's a little manual at this point, but we hope to kind of make more progress on that side. >> I got to ask you, so around 17%, the data suggests, 17% of the IT, technology industry is women, but I was at an IBM, it was a Data Divas breakfast that I crashed, I snuck in, one of the few guys there. >> Oh, very cool. And there was a stat that around 30% of data leaders are women, I don't know, it was a sort of a small sample, who knows? Sounded a little high. Somebody said it's because it's a thankless job and women have to take it on, so thoughts on women in tech, women in this role, perspectives. >> So I am excited to meet a few here at the conference. That statistic is pretty high that you're stating. I don't see that. >> David: It's outside that. >> In the industry, I do find myself sometimes as a lone warrior, at least in the industry forums, but I think it's growing. I think especially women in technology, women in leadership on the line of business side is growing, and Northern Trust, I'm very proud to say, is big around diversity and providing opportunities to women, so from that perspective, I think I'm excited that women are taking interest in data, yes, it is a very hard job, so I think, I feel like we are organized, we get a lot done at the same time, so I think it's really helped. >> Other than it's the right thing to do, are there other sort of business dimensions? Is it Mars versus Venus? Are there sort of enrichments that a woman leader brings to the equation, or is it just because it's the right thing to do? >> I've seen tenacity women have. No offense to anyone, I think the higher tenacity to be persistent. >> I don't take offense. >> To be methodical, to be methodical, and also to have the hard discussions in a very factual way sometimes, but also in, yes, this is the right thing to do, but is there ways we could make this change happen in a systematic, bite-size chunk way. Sometimes I think those coercive conversations help a lot more than the others, and I think, to me, I would say tenacity, tenacity. >> I love that word. I have to say, that's a word that's oftentimes associated with males. A lot of times a tenacious woman, it's a different adjective, right? It's a term, I don't know, Lisa, what your experience has been, so that's good, a good choice of words in my view. >> I've heard pushy before, and I think what they really meant >> David: There you go, okay. >> Is persistence. (laughs) >> That's right. >> A man is tenacious, a woman is pushy. You hear that a lot. >> Right, I think it's persistence. So last question for you. Here we are at the inaugural IBM Think 2018. You guys are an IBM Analytics Global Elite Partner. Can you talk to us a little bit about that strategic partnership and what it means for Northern Trust? >> This partnership has really helped us tremendously in the last three years while we were putting the strategy to action while operationalizing data governance, while operationalizing a lot of the capabilities we thought we would have but really kind of bringing that to life. We're also really excited because lot of the feedback that we've provided has gone into kind of redoing some of the products within IBM, so we've definitely partnered and done lot of testing for some of the ones, the beta versions, and it's also helped us, I think, sometimes it's been like a marriage. We've had hard times getting through certain hurdles, but it really has paid off, and I think the other thing is we've really operationalized governance to the core at Northern Trust. I think IBM is also seeing value in sharing that our story with others because others have started the journey but may have taken certain different approaches to making that happen, so all in all, I think that the unified governance framework has really helped us, and I think we really love the partnership. >> As a client, what's on their to-do list? What's on IBM's to-do list for you? >> So I think one of the things that we've been talking quite a bit is we have a new CIO, and he's really interested in the cloud strategy, I know you've been talking about that. Again, we're a bank, so due to regulation there's strategies in terms of private versus public cloud. That's one conversation we'll definitely want to take further. We want more integrated tooling within the unified governance platform. That's something that's been a topic that we've discussed quite a bit with them. AI, machine learning, robotics is huge for us, so how do we leverage Watson much more? We've done a few POCs, how do we really operationalize and make sure that that's something that we do more of, so I think I would say those three. >> So sounds like a very symbiotic relationship. >> Ranjana: It is. >> Slash marriage that you have. Ranjana, we want to thank you for joining us and sharing how really kind of you're exhibiting the term change agent in a tenacious way. >> Okay, thank you. >> I feel like I want to say I'm flanked between two data divas, you don't take offense at that, do you? >> No, not at all. It's a compliment. >> You crashed an event. I'm seeing a new >> I like that. >> Twitter handle come up here. We want to thank you so much again for stopping by and sharing. Congrats on your success, and we hope you have a great time here. Enjoy the sunshine! Maybe bring some back to Chicago. >> Will do, will do, yeah. Thanks again, very much. >> And for Dave Vellante, I'm Lisa Martin. We want to encourage you to check out thecube.net to watch all of the videos that we have done so far and will be doing at IBM Think 2018, and of course on all of the shows that we do. Also, head over to siliconangle.com. That's our media site where you're going to find pretty much in near real time synopsis and stories on not just what we're doing here but everything around the globe. Again, for Dave Vellante, I'm Lisa Martin, live from IBM Think 2018 in Vegas. We'll be right back after a short break with our next guest.

[Music] hi I'm Peter Burroughs welcome to another cube conversation from our beautiful Palo Alto studios today we're talking with Dan Rogers who's the chief marketing officer of ServiceNow good to say pietà Dan thanks very much for being here so Dan you as a CMO we're gonna spend some time talking about what the CMO does with the CMO doz now at ServiceNow and but give us a little bit of your background who are you where'd you came from how'd you get to where you are sometimes I joke that I was born in the clouds I come from the north of England it does rain there a lot but professionally I spent all my time in cloud companies so Salesforce Amazon Web Services and now of course so is now and what is ServiceNow do give us a little bit of background how is ServiceNow doing where is it going how our customers working with you well I think the way to answer that is by saying every company is undergoing a digital transformation and as they undergo digital transformation they realize that all the great stuff that they have in people's personal lives great user experiences great service experiences they want that at work as well so ServiceNow really brings those great experiences to work we have a platform which is called the now platform now platform basically is a set of services that deliver great user experiences the ability to request things easily help me fix my X helped me get a common answer to a question around say an employee question and then great service experiences so we create great workflow underneath so that all of those activities orchestrated across the organization and then great service intelligence so that over time were predicting things and recommending things just like you have with your consumer services today bringing all of that to the enterprise so let's talk a little bit about the CMO role because ultimately the there's you mention digital transformation and there's been for quite some time predictions made by various folks that you know the CMO is going to spend more money on technology than the IT manager well that clearly hasn't happened but that does not mean that the CMOS role and the marketing function hasn't changed as a consequence of technology how has technology how has a data orientation how has speed and alignment with data and how the organization operates it serves now on others change the CMO job changed marking I think in both a b2c context it's a very rich data environment a lot of that's happening through the web so you have instant data data you can make you know changes on the fly do a/b testing dialing your forms improve your completion rates dialing your conversions the same is also true in B to B and B to B a lot of what marketers are doing is providing the pipeline to the sales team and that has a funnel mindset a discipline around how much is converting at each stage why is it converting what's not converting row the leads going which leads are the most effective and where should we ultimately spend differently to help get those leads into meetings and on to our sales teams so they can execute against the opportunities now it used to be the b2b he was characterized by what Peter Drucker would have called value in exchange that you would sell a product and the product imbued the value of the company and that was up to the customer to figure out how to get value out of it we now seem to be moving to a value in utility model where instead of selling products were increasingly selling outcomes or increasingly it's actually taking the form of services serves now is at the vanguard of that change tell us a little bit about how that notion of value in exchange to value in utility is changing your job in quite frankly changing service now so yeah I'll actually take us right back to the founding of our company in 2004 our company was founded by Fred ludie and it was founded on a simple idea that we were going to make work better for people and what we would do therefore is listen to our customers about the problems that they had and design solutions with them for the to get them to answers so in my world that means that I'm not just going to describe the speeds and feeds of the products in fact I'm going to dial in to the solutions that our customers want to talk to us about and the business outcomes that they need there are seven solutions that we go to market where they'll just briefly tell you a little bit about those the first one is modernize IT Service Management customers are asking us we have a legacy IT service management infrastructure how get help desk from IT help us to modernize that we know we can do better than our antiquated process that's what you started that's where we started thank you and then you know we've migrated in IT to a much richer conversation around help you eliminate service outages how can we predict anomalies before they happen in your IT environment and then I want to run IT like a business I know you're gonna be talking to our CIO later in the series a lot of what modern CIOs are thinking about is looking at all the projects across the companies how can I support those with IT to transform the organization those are our IT conversations we have conversations happening in HR and they want to consumer eyes the employee experience and then customer service how can I improve customer satisfaction by resolving those underlying issues faster in security operations how can I resolve vulnerabilities and incidents faster and finally we open up our our whole platform to allow anyone to build applications that are intelligent and smart take advantage of all those platform capabilities around great user experience those are the seven solutions that would go to market with and our customers care about those outcomes against those seven solutions so increasingly the marketing organization is talking in the language of business value to what extent are our customers doing those seven things what business value of they had have they increased IT productivity by 20% have they resolved those security incidents 45% faster and we're talking in that language and we're helping customers accelerate their time to get to those outcomes increasingly the modern marketer I think is stepping into that role not just get the leads get them to our sales team but really thinking about the whole way through getting those customers to this end outcomes yeah I want to talk to you about that a little bit but let me take a quick Waypoint here that you mentioned earlier the biggest sea world the market has always been familiar with the role the data could play within our organization simply because in most b2c circumstances you have a lot of customers that are doing that value in exchange you know I'm buying dumb a lot of people are buying go but one of the things that's interesting about the b2b world especially as we move to this notion of value in utility this solution the ongoing service provisioning is we don't have a lot of customers with limited engagement we have perhaps fewer customers but with a lot of engagement because now it's at a service level and that creates new forms of data new types of data a much richer set of insights and what customers are doing how are you using that to inform marketing do a better job of serving customers do a better job of service sales do a better job of serving Cheryl yeah and it's a question I love and you know I'll interpret the questions how do we get customer insight how do we make sure that our marketing is customer centric and not generic we have a few feelers for that you talk about a data obviously from a web perspective we have really good fidelity on where customers are going what they're interacting with what demos they're doing what the conversion rates of those are we also have a lot of physical world interactions so my organization runs the EBC it's policy yeah executive briefing center drive so it's probably the executive briefing center we have hundreds of customers joining us we actually survey them and ask them what's top of mind we begin every one of our ABCs for the section called voice of customer where we hear from them what's most important for them as our product teams come and have those discussions they're gleaning from those customers what are they most want to talk about what are they most want to hear about and because all of that data is captured on a platform that she becomes rich and actionable for the rest of my product marketing organization that's a set of customer insights our knowledge event so we have an annual user conference called knowledge this year knowledge 18 will actually have around 18,000 registrants so you know these are become small little intimate a huge huge event but what's very unique about our event is 95% of the sessions are designed by and delivered by customers this isn't a marketing event this is a peer group event of customers teaching customers telling customers what they've learned sharing their experiences so when we do a we do a call for content for knowledge we're really building our agenda based on exactly what the data is telling us what our customers want to hear about what do they want to say again that's really from marketing perspective just such rich ground for us to learn exactly what they care about we have customer feelers of course you know through all of our our activities that we're doing in the field in fact not a single field activity that my team does is without a customer so every time we're getting that rich insight you know to the point which I'd say we are a customer centric marketing organization is there any other way well some would say that there there might be but they're probably gonna get eaten by ServiceNow over the course of the next few years but let me really tie this back because again historically marketers have been asked to get engaged customers generate leads that funnel you know get us that original group that's going to want to talk to us and marketers have sometimes taken some very annoying approaches to make this happen one of the things that our research shows is that increasingly the sustained engagement requires that marketing also has to be a source of value to customers you mentioned the community approach at your big conference and the fact that you're providing content providing information that the customers will find valuable do you subscribe to that notion that marketing should be a source of value to customers in addition to others what do you think yeah absolutely I think if you have this limited mindset that somehow you're getting a lead and leaders victory I think it's game over you talked about community I'll just build on that real quick ServiceNow as a very active community itself online with 150,000 community members my team run the community we literally provide advice to the community that's one of the most joyful things that we can do similarly my relationship with sales isn't you know her over the lead we're working with the sales team to understand how they want to develop those accounts what are the accounts need from them and that really influences my marketing plan so I see us definitely as part of value exchange with customers so we believe pretty strongly also that the marketing function because of this orientation towards outcome because of the you know a services increasingly a services approach an ongoing sense of value and the fact that you have this rich opportunity to capture data has to take a more broader whole lifecycle role in customer engagement that doesn't mean that sales is less important which is I think a mistake that many of maids at OU fewer sales people and I think that sales gets more focused that much more important more of a problem-solving function for customers but talk to me a little bit about this idea of marketing becoming more a part of the entire customer journey and not just that discover and evaluate phase first of all do you agree with me and second of all how's it playing out for your team well I'd say you know one of the amazing things about a subscription business and you know we're in a subscription businesses customers get to vote with their feet every month Venus is a subscription the great news is service now our neural rates are over 97 percent which is you know yeah well in a lot of other businesses they talk about 85 and b2b they talk about 85% being good but 97% is almost be to see like churn numbers there is only one way to get that and that is the entire company needs to be focused on customer success the way we think about how we develop products through our sales team is engaged in their marketing teams engage is around customer success so I think it's almost like if you don't have that hat on and the executive seat you never get to get those numbers so my role half three quarters is customer success ultimately that's what I'm doing and you may start to see a lot more of how we go to market you know really having a lot more of that success mindset I'm looking forward to knowledge 18 I think you'll see a very different orientation from us at that conference you'll see things like success clinics things like office hours and a whole bunch of other best practices that we're going to be sharing with our customers and that helping customers get to value quicker is very much something I care deeply about and that's really a big orientation for my team so you mentioned if they don't have the hat on then it's not going to work that says something about culture and says something about the type of people that you hire and bring in service now is growing very very rapidly give us a couple of key things if we had a group of marketers here and you said the one thing you need in the culture beyond just customer centric but the one thing you need is this and then one thing you need about when you look for people what's the one thing you need in the marketing culture you know it's such a fast-moving space I'd actually say me this combination of innovation and execution execution is clear that means you do have a relationship with a product team your relationship the sales team your relationship with your customers and they have needs and those things need executing on but also because it's such a fast moving environment the nature of the job is changing the nature of the toolset is changing what our customers need which is ultimately driving it is changing very fast you have to have this sense of innovation this idea you know Jeff Bezos of Amazon talks about it this idea of day one so it's really day one for how you do those traditional things in marketing because they're not being done in the same way everyone needs to come with that day one mindset you learn you go and we can execute that so a culture performance and nonetheless is porous and open to change people what kind of people what kind of things are you looking for when when you sit down an interview potential service now marketing employee and of course we have those different functions so there's functional skills sort of harder skills but again I'd probably say the same thing it's that ability to innovate because a lot of what we're doing hasn't been done before or it's not done well and we want to do it better we want to reimagine and reinvent so that idea of dynamism and flexibility and then this underlying execution is can you get it done we want to be an organization that commits to things and gets them done so in the thing that's the combination of those two things and then those functional disciplines of course we've got product marketing we have digital marketers we have some of the you know folks we're qualifying the leads we call those ad hours they'll have a very different functional disciplines and then some of those underlying values I think so you and I are having the same conversation in twenty eight twenty three what is the one thing that you're doing more of in 2023 than you're doing today what is the one thing you're doing less of in 2023 than you're doing today you know I'm going to use the customers the North Star on that as well I think will be even more intimate with our customers in 2023 that's how I'm grounded some organizations grounded that's how my company's grounded I don't think we can go far enough on that they're spending more time with them looking at the data more engaging with sales more to understand what's working what's not working ensuring they get to value that's really as possible being so speed the value time to value and increase the level of value that serves and I was able to provide yeah okay what's one thing you're doing loss of talking to me that's great this is a great question I want to give it to giver the right you know the right mindset you know I think so much is going to change I think the way we go about what we do is going to change fundamentally I think the way we think about events is going to be different I think away we think about meetings is going to be different the way we engage is going to be different it's going to be all driven by that North Star of the customer so I can't even imagine what it's going to look like and that's why it's such an exciting profession it really is more or less how about outbound more or less outbound I think that will look just different I think we'll be doing outbound I think I'll have a different flavor and that's one of the things I love about my job that's why I get up every day because it's all going to be different what we're doing now is entirely different than it was two years ago but it's super exciting so reflecting what you said about the culture that you want the people that you hire you yourself are performing great growth in service now while at the same time being very porous very flexible to change and anticipating expecting it that's it paid off all right Dan Rogers thank you very much for come on on in Dan Rogers service now and his great cube conversation Dan again thanks very much for coming here and we look forward to I'm Peter burns from our Palo Alto studios and we look forward to having another cube conversation with you [Music] you

(hopeful futuristic music) >> Hey welcome back everybody, Jeff Frick here with theCUBE. We are really excited to have this cube conversation here in the Palo Alto studio with a real close friend of theCUBE, and repeat alumni, Leslie Berlin. I want to get her official title; she's the historian for the Silicon Valley archive at Stanford. Last time we talked to Leslie, she had just come out with a book about Robert Noyce, and the man behind the microchip. If you haven't seen that, go check it out. But now she's got a new book, it's called "Troublemakers," which is a really appropriate title. And it's really about kind of the next phase of Silicon Valley growth, and it's hitting bookstores. I'm sure you can buy it wherever you can buy any other book, and we're excited to have you on Leslie, great to see you again. >> So good to see you Jeff. >> Absolutely, so the last book you wrote was really just about Noyce, and obviously, Intel, very specific in, you know, the silicon in Silicon Valley obviously. >> Right yeah. >> This is a much, kind of broader history with again just great characters. I mean, it's a tech history book, but it's really a character novel; I love it. >> Well thanks, yeah; I mean, I really wanted to find people. They had to meet a few criteria. They had to be interesting, they had to be important, they had to be, in my book, a little unknown; and most important, they had to be super-duper interesting. >> Jeff Frick: Yeah. >> And what I love about this generation is I look at Noyce's generation of innovators, who sort of working in the... Are getting their start in the 60s. And they really kind of set the tone for the valley in a lot of ways, but the valley at that point was still just all about chips. And then you have this new generation show up in the 70s, and they come up with the personal computer, they come up with video games. They sort of launch the venture capital industry in the way we know it now. Biotech, the internet gets started via the ARPANET, and they kind of set the tone for where we are today around the world in this modern, sort of tech infused, life that we live. >> Right, right, and it's interesting to me, because there's so many things that kind of define what Silicon Valley is. And of course, people are trying to replicate it all over the place, all over the world. But really, a lot of those kind of attributes were started by this class of entrepreneurs. Like just venture capital, the whole concept of having kind of a high risk, high return, small carve out from an institution, to put in a tech venture with basically a PowerPoint and some faith was a brand new concept back in the day. >> Leslie Berlin: Yeah, and no PowerPoint even. >> Well that's right, no PowerPoint, which is probably a good thing. >> You're right, because we're talking about the 1970s. I mean, what's so, really was very surprising to me about this book, and really important for understanding early venture capital, is that now a lot of venture capitalists are professional investors. But these venture capitalists pretty much to a man, and they were all men at that point, they were all operating guys, all of them. They worked at Fairchild, they worked at Intel, they worked at HP; and that was really part of the value that they brought to these propositions was they had money, yes, but they also had done this before. >> Jeff Frick: Right. >> And that was really, really important. >> Right, another concept that kind of comes out, and I think we've seen it time and time again is kind of this partnership of kind of the crazy super enthusiastic visionary that maybe is hard to work with and drives everybody nuts, and then always kind of has the other person, again, generally a guy in this time still a lot, who's kind of the doer. And it was really the Bushnell-Alcorn story around Atari that really brought that home where you had this guy way out front of the curve but you have to have the person behind who's actually building the vision in real material. >> Yeah, I mean I think something that's really important to understand, and this is something that I was really trying to bring out in the book, is that we usually only have room in our stories for one person in the spotlight when innovation is a team sport. And so, the kind of relationship that you're talking about with Nolan Bushnell, who started Atari, and Al Alcorn who was the first engineer there, it's a great example of that. And Nolan is exactly this very out there person, big curly hair, talkative, outgoing guy. After Atari he starts Chuck E. Cheese, which kind of tells you everything you need to know about someone who's dreaming up Chuck E. Cheese, super creative, super out there, super fun oriented. And you have working with him, Al Alcorn, who's a very straight laced for the time, by which I mean, he tried LSD but only once. (cumulative laughing) Engineer, and I think that what's important to understand is how much they needed each other, because the stories are so often only about the exuberant out front guy. To understand that those are just dreams, they are not reality without these other people. And how important, I mean, Al Alcorn told me look, "I couldn't have done this without Nolan, "kind of constantly pushing me." >> Right, right. >> And then in the Apple example, you actually see a third really important person, which to me was possibly the most exciting part of everything I discovered, which was the importance of the guy named Mike Markkula. Because in Jobs you had the visionary, and in Woz you had the engineer, but the two of them together, they had an idea, they had a great product, the Apple II, but they didn't have a company. And when Mike Markkula shows up at the garage, you know, Steve Jobs is 21 years old. >> Jeff Frick: Right. >> He has had 17 months of business experience in his life, and it's all his attack for Atari, actually. And so how that company became a business is due to Mike Markkula, this very quiet guy, very, very ambitious guy. He talked them up from a thousand stock options at Intel to 20,000 stock options at Intel when he got there, just before the IPO, which is how he could then turn around and help finance >> Jeff Frick: Right. >> The birth of Apple. And he pulled into Apple all of the chip people that he had worked with, and that is really what turned Apple into a company. So you had the visionary, you had the tech guy, you also needed a business person. >> But it's funny though because in that story of his visit to the garage he's specifically taken by the engineering elegance of the board >> Leslie Berlin: Right. >> That Woz put together, which I thought was really neat. So yeah, he's a successful business man. Yes he was bringing a lot of kind of business acumen value to the opportunity, but what struck him, and he specifically talks about what chips he used, how he planned for the power supply. Just very elegant engineering stuff that touched him, and he could recognize that they were so far ahead of the curve. And I think that's such another interesting point is that things that we so take for granted like mice, and UI, and UX. I mean the Atari example, for them to even think of actually building it that would operate with a television was just, I mean you might as well go to Venus, forget Mars, I mean that was such a crazy idea. >> Yeah, I mean I think Al ran to Walgreens or something like that and just sort of picked out the closest t.v. to figure out how he could build what turned out to be Pong, the first super successful video game. And I mean, if you look also at another story I tell is about Xerox Park; and specifically about a guy named Bob Taylor, who, I know I keep saying, "Oh this might be my favorite part." But Bob Taylor is another incredible story. This is the guy who convinced DARPA to start, it was then called ARPA, to start the ARPANET, which became the internet in a lot of ways. And then he goes on and he starts the computer sciences lab at Xerox Park. And that is the lab that Steve Jobs comes to in 1979, and for the first time sees a GUI, sees a mouse, sees Windows. And this is... The history behind that, and these people all working together, these very sophisticated Ph.D. engineers were all working together under the guidance of Bob Taylor, a Texan with a drawl and a Master's Degree in Psychology. So what it takes to lead, I think, is a really interesting question that gets raised in this book. >> So another great personality, Sandra Kurtzig. >> Yeah. >> I had to look to see if she's still alive. She's still alive. >> Leslie Berlin: Yeah. >> I'd love to get her in some time, we'll have to arrange for that next time, but her story is pretty fascinating, because she's a woman, and we still have big women issues in the tech industry, and this is years ago, but she was aggressive, she was a fantastic sales person, and she could code. And what was really interesting is she started her own software company. The whole concept of software kind of separated from hardware was completely alien. She couldn't even convince the HP guys to let her have access to a machine to write basically an NRP system that would add a ton of value to these big, expensive machines that they were selling. >> Yeah, you know what's interesting, she was able to get access to the machine. And HP, this is not a well known part of HP's history, is how important it was in helping launch little bitty companies in the valley. It was a wonderful sort of... Benefited all these small companies. But she had to go and read to them the definition of what an OEM was to make an argument that I am adding value to your machines by putting software on it. And software was such an unknown concept. A, people who heard she was selling software thought she was selling lingerie. And B, Larry Ellison tells a hilarious story of going to talk to venture capitalists about... When he's trying to start Oracle, he had co-founders, which I'm not sure everybody knows. And he and his co-founders were going to try to start Oracle, and these venture capitalists would, he said, not only throw him out of the office for such a crazy idea, but their secretaries would double check that he hadn't stolen the copy of Business Week off the table because what kind of nut job are we talking to here? >> Software. >> Yeah, where as now, I mean when you think about it, this is software valley. >> Right, right, it's software, even, world. There's so many great stories, again, "Troublemakers" just go out and get it wherever you buy a book. The whole recombinant DNA story and the birth of Genentech, A, is interesting, but I think the more kind of unique twist was the guy at Stanford, who really took it upon himself to take the commercialization of academic, generated, basic research to a whole 'nother level that had never been done. I guess it was like a sleepy little something in Manhattan they would send some paper to, but this guy took it to a whole 'nother level. >> Oh yeah, I mean before Niels showed up, Niels Reimers, he I believe that Stanford had made something like $3,000 off of the IP from its professors and students in the previous decades, and Niels said "There had to be a better way to do this." And he's the person who decided, we ought to be able to patent recombinant DNA. And one of the stories that's very, very interesting is what a cultural shift that required, whereas engineers had always thought in terms of, "How can this be practical?" For biologists this was seen as really an unpleasant thing to be doing, don't think about that we're about basic research. So in addition to having to convince all sorts of government agencies and the University of California system, which co-patented this, to make it possible, just almost on a paperwork level... >> Right. >> He had to convince the scientists themselves. And it was not a foregone conclusion, and a lot of people think that what kept the two named co-inventors of recombinant DNA, Stan Cohen and Herb Boyer, from winning the Nobel Prize is that they were seen as having benefited from the work of others, but having claimed all the credit, which is not, A, isn't fair, and B, both of those men had worried about that from the very beginning and kept saying, "We need to make sure that this includes everyone." >> Right. >> But that's not just the origins of the biotech industry in the valley, the entire landscape of how universities get their ideas to the public was transformed, and that whole story, there are these ideas that used to be in university labs, used to be locked up in the DOD, like you know, the ARPANET. And this is the time when those ideas start making their way out in a significant way. >> But it's this elegant dance, because it's basic research, and they want it to benefit all, but then you commercialize it, right? And then it's benefiting the few. But if you don't commercialize it and it doesn't get out, you really don't benefit very many. So they really had to walk this fine line to kind of serve both masters. >> Absolutely, and I mean it was even more complicated than that, because researchers didn't have to pay for it, it was... The thing that's amazing to me is that we look back at these people and say, "Oh these are trailblazers." And when I talked to them, because something that was really exciting about this book was that I got to talk to every one of the primary characters, you talk to them, and they say, "I was just putting one foot in front of the other." It's only when you sort of look behind them years later that you see, "Oh my God, they forged a completely new trail." But here it was just, "No I need to get to here, "and now I need to get to here." And that's what helped them get through. That's why I start the book with the quote from Raiders of the Lost Ark where Sallah asks Indy, you know basically, how are you going to stop, "Stop that car." And he says, "How are you going to do it Indy?" And Indy says, "I don't know "I'm making it up as I go along." And that really could almost be a theme in a lot of cases here that they knew where they needed to get to, and they just had to make it up to get there. >> Yeah, and there's a whole 'nother tranche on the Genentech story; they couldn't get all of the financing, so they actually used outsourcing, you know, so that whole kind of approach to business, which was really new and innovative. But we're running out of time, and I wanted to follow up on the last comment that you made. As a historian, you know, you are so fortunate or smart to pick your field that you can talk to the individual. So, I think you said, you've been doing interviews for five or six years for this book, it's 100 pages of notes in the back, don't miss the notes. >> But also don't think the book's too long. >> No, it's a good book, it's an easy read. But as you reflect on these individuals and these personalities, so there's obviously the stories you spent a lot of time writing about, but I'm wondering if there's some things that you see over and over again that just impress you. Is there a pattern, or is it just, as you said, just people working hard, putting one step in front of the other, and taking those risks that in hindsight are so big? >> I would say, I would point to a few things. I'd point to audacity; there really is a certain kind of adventurousness, at an almost unimaginable level, and persistence. I would also point to a third feature at that time that I think was really important, which was for a purpose that was creative. You know, I mean there was the notion, I think the metaphor of pioneering is much more what they were doing then what we would necessarily... Today we would call it disruption, and I think there's a difference there. And their vision was creative, I think of them as rebels with a cause. >> Right, right; is disruption the right... Is disruption, is that the right way that we should be thinking about it today or are just kind of backfilling the disruption after the fact that it happens do you think? >> I don't know, I mean I've given this a lot of thought, because I actually think, well, you know, the valley at this point, two-thirds of the people who are working in the tech industry in the valley were born outside of this country right now, actually 76 percent of the women. >> Jeff Frick: 76 percent? Wow. >> 76 percent of the women, I think it's age 25 to 44 working in tech were born outside of the United States. Okay, so the pioneering metaphor, that's just not the right metaphor anymore. The disruptive metaphor has a lot of the same concepts, but it has, it sounds to me more like blowing things up, and doesn't really thing so far as to, "Okay, what comes next?" >> Jeff Frick: Right, right. >> And I think we have to be sure that we continue to do that. >> Right, well because clearly, I mean, the Facebooks are the classic example where, you know, when he built that thing at Harvard, it was not to build a new platform that was going to have the power to disrupt global elections. You're trying to get dates, right? I mean, it was pretty simple. >> Right. >> Simple concept and yet, as you said, by putting one foot in front of the other as things roll out, he gets smart people, they see opportunities and take advantage of it, it becomes a much different thing, as has Google, as has Amazon. >> That's the way it goes, that's exactly... I mean, and you look back at the chip industry. These guys just didn't want to work for a boss they didn't like, and they wanted to build a transistor. And 20 years later a huge portion of the U.S. economy rests on the decisions they're making and the choices. And so I think this has been a continuous story in Silicon Valley. People start with a cool, small idea and it just grows so fast among them and around them with other people contributing, some people they wish didn't contribute, okay then what comes next? >> Jeff Frick: Right, right. >> That's what we figure out now. >> All right, audacity, creativity and persistence. Did I get it? >> And a goal. >> And a goal, and a goal. Pong, I mean was a great goal. (cumulative laughing) All right, so Leslie, thanks for taking a few minutes. Congratulations on the book; go out, get the book, you will not be disappointed. And of course, the Bob Noyce book is awesome as well, so... >> Thanks. >> Thanks for taking a few minutes and congratulations. >> Thank you so much Jeff. >> All right this is Leslie Berlin, I'm Jeff Frick, you're watching theCUBE. See you next time, thanks for watching. (electronic music)