(upbeat music) >> Hello, and welcome back to AWS Startup Showcase, I'm John Furrier, your host. This is the Hero panel, the AWS Heroes. These are folks that have a lot of experience in Open Source, having fun building great projects and commercializing the value and best practices of Open Source innovation. We've got some great guests here. Liz Rice, Chief Open Source Officer, Isovalent. CUBE alumni, great to see you. Brian LeRoux, who is the Co-founder and CTO of begin.com. Erica Windisch who's an Architect for Developer Experience. AWS Hero, also CUBE alumni. Casey Lee, CTO Gaggle. Doing some great stuff in ed tech. Great collection of experts and experienced folks doing some fun stuff, welcome to this conversation this CUBE panel. >> Hi. >> Thanks for having us. >> Hello. >> Let's go down the line. >> I don't normally do this, but since we're remote and we have such great guests, go down the line and talk about why Open Source is important to you guys. What projects are you currently working on? And what's the coolest thing going on there? Liz we'll start with you. >> Okay, so I am very involved in the world of Cloud Native. I'm the chair of the technical oversight committee for the Cloud Native Computing Foundation. So that means I get to see a lot of what's going on across a very broad range of Cloud Native projects. More specifically, Isovalent. I focus on Cilium, which is it's based on a technology called EBPF. That is to me, probably the most exciting technology right now. And then finally, I'm also involved in an organization called OpenUK, which is really pushing for more use of open technologies here in the United Kingdom. So spread around lots of different projects. And I'm in a really fortunate position, I think, to see what's happening with lots of projects and also the commercialization of lots of projects. >> Awesome, Brian what project are you working on? >> Working project these days called Architect. It's a Open Source project built on top of AWSM. It adds a lot of sugar and terseness to the SM experience and just makes it a lot easier to work with and get started. AWS can be a little bit intimidating to people at times. And the Open Source community is stepping up to make some of that bond ramp a little bit easier. And I'm also an Apache member. And so I keep a hairy eyeball on what's going on in that reality all the time. And I've been doing this open-source thing for quite a while, and yeah, I love it. It's a great thing. It's real science. We get to verify each other's work and we get to expand and build on human knowledge. So that's a huge honor to just even be able to do that and I feel stoked to be here so thanks for having me. >> Awesome, yeah, and totally great. Erica, what's your current situation going on here? What's happening? >> Sure, so I am currently working on developer experience of a number of Open Source STKS and CLI components from my current employer. And previously, recently I left New Relic where I was working on integrating with OpenTelemetry, as well as a number of other things. Before that I was a maintainer of Docker and of OpenStack. So I've been in this game for a while as well. And I tend to just put my fingers in a lot of little pies anywhere from DVD players 20 years ago to a lot of this open telemetry and monitoring and various STKs and developer tools is where like Docker and OpenStack and the STKs that I work on now, all very much focusing on developer as the user. >> Yeah, you're always on the wave, Erica great stuff. Casey, what's going on? Do you got some great ed techs happening? What's happening with you? >> Yeah, sure. The primary Open Source project that I'm contributing to right now is ACT. This is a tool I created a couple of years back when GitHub Actions first came out, and my motivation there was I'm just impatient. And that whole commit, push, wait time where you're testing out your pipelines is painful. And so I wanted to build a tool that allowed developers to test out their GitHub Actions workflows locally. And so this tool uses Docker containers to emulate, to get up action environment and gives you fast feedback on those workflows that you're building. Lot of innovation happening at GitHub. And so we're just trying to keep up and continue to replicate those new features functionalities in the local runner. And the biggest challenge I've had with this project is just keeping up with the community. We just passed 20,000 stars, and it'd be it's a normal week to get like 10 PRs. So super excited to announce just yesterday, actually I invited four of the most active contributors to help me with maintaining the project. And so this is like a big deal for me, letting the project go and bringing other people in to help lead it. So, yeah, huge shout out to those folks that have been helping with driving that project. So looking forward to what's next for it. >> Great, we'll make sure the SiliconANGLE riders catch that quote there. Great call out. Let's start, Brian, you made me realize when you mentioned Apache and then you've been watching all the stuff going on, it brings up the question of the evolution of Open Source, and the commercialization trends have been very interesting these days. You're seeing CloudScale really impact also with the growth of code. And Liz, if you remember, the Linux Foundation keeps making projections and they keep blowing past them every year on more and more code and more and more entrance coming in, not just individuals, corporations. So you starting to see Netflix donates something, you got Lyft donate some stuff, becomes a project company forms around it. There's a lot of entrepreneurial activity that's creating this new abstraction layers, new platforms, not just tools. So you start to see a new kickup trajectory with Open Source. You guys want to comment on this because this is going to impact how fast the enterprise will see value here. >> I think a really great example of that is a project called Backstage that's just come out of Spotify. And it's going through the incubation process at the CNCF. And that's why it's front of mind for me right now, 'cause I've been working on the due diligence for that. And the reason why I thought it was interesting in relation to your question is it's spun out of Spotify. It's fully Open Source. They have a ton of different enterprises using it as this developer portal, but they're starting to see some startups emerging offering like a hosted managed version of Backstage or offering services around Backstage or offering commercial plugins into Backstage. And I think it's really fascinating to see those ecosystems building up around a project and different ways that people can. I'm a big believer. You cannot sell the Open Source code, but you can sell other things that create value around Open Source projects. So that's really exciting to see. >> Great point. Anyone else want to weigh in and react to that? Because it's the new model. It's not the old way. I mean, I remember when I was in college, we had the Pirate software. Open Source wasn't around. So you had to deal under the table. Now it's free. But I mean the old way was you had to convince the enterprise, like you've got a hard knit, it builds the community and the community manage the quality of the code. And then you had to build the company to make sure they could support it. Now the companies are actually involved in it, right? And then new startups are forming faster. And the proof points are shorter and highly accelerated for that. I mean, it's a whole new- >> It's a Cambrian explosion, and it's great. It's one of those things that it's challenging for the new developers because they come in and they're like, "Whoa, what is all this stuff that I'm supposed to figure out?" And there's no right answer and there's no wrong answer. There's just tons of it. And I think that there's a desire for us to have one sort of well-known trot and happy path, that audience we're a lot better with a more diverse community, with lots of options, with lots of ways to approach these problems. And I think it's just great. A challenge that we have with all these options and all these Cambrian explosion of projects and all these competing ideas, right now, the sustainability, it's a bit of a tricky question to answer. We know that there's a commercialization aspect that helps us fund these projects, but how we compose the open versus the commercial source is still a bit of a tricky question and a tough one for a lot of folks. >> Erica, would you chime in on that for a second. I want to get your angle on that, this experience and all this code, and I'm a new person, I'm an existing person. Do I get like a blue check mark and verify? I mean, these are questions like, well, how do you navigate? >> Yeah, I think this has been something happening for a while. I mean, back in the early OpenStack days, 2010, for instance, Rackspace Open Sourcing, OpenStack and ANSU Labs and so forth, and then trying, having all these companies forming in creating startups around this. I started at a company called Cloudccaling back in late 2010, and we had some competitors such as Piston and so forth where a lot of the ANSUL Labs people went. But then, the real winners, I think from OpenStack ended up being the enterprises that jumped in. We had Red Hat in particular, as well as HP and IBM jumping in and investing in OpenStack, and really proving out a lot of... not that it was the first time, but this is when we started seeing billions of dollars pouring into Open Source projects and Open Source Foundations, such as the OpenStack Foundation, which proceeded a lot of the things that we now see with the Linux Foundation, which was then created a little bit later. And at the same time, I'm also reflecting a little bit what Brian said because there are projects that don't get funded, that don't get the same attention, but they're also getting used quite significantly. Things like Log4j really bringing this to the spotlight in terms of projects that are used everywhere by everything with significant outsized impacts on the industry that are not getting funded, that aren't flashy enough, that aren't exciting enough because it's just logging, but a vulnerability in it brings every everything and everybody down and has possibly billions of dollars of impact to our industry because nobody wanted to fund this project. >> I think that brings up the commercialization point about maybe bringing a venture capital model in saying, "Hey, that boring little logging thing could be a key ingredient for say solving some observability problems so I think let's put some cash." Again then we'd never seen that before. Now you're starting to see that kind of a real smart investment thesis going into Open Source projects. I mean, Promethease, Crafter, these are projects that turned off companies. This is turning up companies. >> A decade ago, there was no money in Dev tools that I think that's been fully debunked now. They used to be a concept that the venture community believed, but there's just too much evidence to the contrary, the companies like Cash Court, Datadog, the list goes on and on. I think the challenge for the Open Source (indistinct) comes back to foundations and working (indistinct) these developers make this code safe and secure. >> Casey, what's your reaction to all of this? You've got, so a project has gained some traction, got some momentum. There's a lot of mission critical. I won't say white spaces, but the opportunities in the big cloud game happening. And there's a lot of, I won't say too many entrepreneurial, but there's a lot of community action happening that's precommercialization that's getting traction. How does this all develop naturally and then vector in quickly when it hits? >> Yeah, I want to go back to the Log4j topic real quick. I think that it's a great example of an area that we need to do better at. And there was a cool article that Rob Pike wrote describing how to quantify the criticality. I think that's sort of quantifying criticality was the article he wrote on how to use metrics, to determine how valuable, how important a piece of Open Source is to the community. And we really need to highlight that more. We need a way to make it more clear how important this software is, how many people depend on it and how many people are contributing to it. And because right now we all do that. Like if I'm going to evaluate an Open Source software, sure, I'll look at how many stars it has and how many contributors it has. But I got to go through and do all that work myself and come up with. It would be really great if we had an agreed upon method for ranking the criticality of software, but then also the risk, hey, that this is used by a ton of people, but nobody's contributing to it anymore. That's a concern. And that would be great to potential users of that to signal whether or not it makes sense. The Open Source Security Foundation, just getting off the ground, they're doing some work in this space, and I'm really excited to see where they go with that looking at ways to stop score critically. >> Well, this brings up a good point while we've got everyone here, let's take a plug and plug a project you think that's not getting the visibility it needs. Let's go through each of you, point out a project that you think people should be looking at and talking about that might get some free visibility here. Anyone want to highlight projects they think should be focused more on, or that needs a little bit of love? >> I think, I mean, particularly if we're talking about these sort of vulnerability issues, there's a ton of work going on, like in the Secure Software Foundation, other foundations, I think there's work going on in Apache somewhere as well around the bill of material, the software bill of materials, the Secure Software supply chain security, even enumerating your dependencies is not trivial today. So I think there's going to be a ton of people doing really good work on that, as well as the criticality aspect. It's all like that. There's a really great xkcd cartoon with your software project and some really big monolithic lumps. And then, this tiny little piece in a very important point that's maintained by somebody in his bedroom in Montana or something and if you called it out. >> Yeah, you just opened where the next lightening and a bottle comes from. And this is I think the beauty of Open Source is that you get a little collaboration, you get three feet in a cloud of dust going and you get some momentum, and if it's relevant, it rises to the top. I think that's the collective intelligence of Open Source. The question I want to ask that the panel here is when you go into an enterprise, and now that the game is changing with a much more collaborative and involved, what's the story if they say, hey, what's in it for me, how do I manage the Open Source? What's the current best practice? Because there's no doubt I can't ignore it. It's in everything we do. How do I organize around it? How do I build around it to be more efficient and more productive and reduce the risk on vulnerabilities to managing staff, making sure the right teams in place, the right agility and all those things? >> You called it, they got to get skin in the game. They need to be active and involved and donating to a sustainable Open Source project is a great way to start. But if you really want to be active, then you should be committing. You should have a goal for your organization to be contributing back to that project. Maybe not committing code, it could be committing resources into the darks or in the tests, or even tweeting about an Open Source project is contributing to it. And I think a lot of these enterprises could benefit a lot from getting more active with the Open Source Foundations that are out there. >> Liz, you've been actively involved. I know we've talked personally when the CNCF started, which had a great commercial uptake from companies. What do you think the current state-of-the-art kind of equation is has it changed a little bit? Or is it the game still the same? >> Yeah, and in the early days of the CNCF, it was very much dominated by vendors behind the project. And now we're seeing more and more membership from end-user companies, the kind of enterprises that are building their businesses on Cloud Native, but their business is not in itself. That's not there. The infrastructure is not their business. And I think seeing those companies, putting money in, putting time in, as Brian says contributing resources quite often, there's enough money, but finding the talent to do the work and finding people who are prepared to actually chop the wood and carry the water, >> Exactly. >> that it's hard. >> And if enterprises can find peoples to spend time on Open Source projects, help with those chores, it's hugely valuable. And it's one of those the rising tide floats all the boats. We can raise security, we can reduce the amount of dependency on maintain projects collectively. >> I think the business models there, I think one of the things I'll react to and then get your guys' comments is remember which CubeCon it was, it was one of the early ones. And I remember seeing Apple having a booth, but nobody was manning. It was just an Apple booth. They weren't doing anything, but they were recruiting. And I think you saw the transition of a business model where the worry about a big vendor taking over a project and having undue influence over it goes away because I think this idea of participation is also talent, but also committing that talent back into the communities as a model, as a business model, like, okay, hire some great people, but listen, don't screw up the Open Source piece of it 'cause that's a critical. >> Also hire a channel, right? They can use those contributions to source that talent and build the reputation in the communities that they depend on. And so there's really a lot of benefit to the larger organizations that can do this. They'll have a huge pipeline of really qualified engineers right out the gate without having to resort to cheesy whiteboard interviews, which is pretty great. >> Yeah, I agree with a lot of this. One of my concerns is that a lot of these corporations tend to focus very narrowly on certain projects, which they feel that they depend greatly, they'll invest in OpenStack, they'll invest in Docker, they'll invest in some of the CNCF projects. And then these other projects get ignored. Something that I've been a proponent of for a little bit for a while is observability of your dependencies. And I don't think there's quite enough projects and solutions to this. And it sounds maybe from lists, there are some projects that I don't know about, but I also know that there's some startups like Snyk and so forth that help with a little bit of this problem, but I think we need more focus on some of these edges. And I think companies need to do better, both in providing, having some sort of solution for observability of the dependencies, as well as understanding those dependencies and managing them. I've seen companies for instance, depending on software that they actively don't want to use based on a certain criteria that they already set projects, like they'll set a requirement that any project that they use has a code of conduct, but they'll then use projects that don't have codes of conduct. And if they don't have a code of conduct, then employees are prohibited from working on those projects. So you've locked yourself into a place where you're depending on software that you have instructed, your employees are not allowed to contribute to, for certain legal and other reasons. So you need to draw a line in the sand and then recognize that those projects are ones that you don't want to consume, and then not use them, and have observability around these things. >> That's a great point. I think we have 10 minutes left. I want to just shift to a topic that I think is relevant. And that is as Open Source software, software, people develop software, you see under the hood kind of software, SREs developing very quickly in the CloudScale, but also you've got your classic software developers who were writing code. So you have supply chain, software supply chain challenges. You mentioned developer experience around how to code. You have now automation in place. So you've got the development of all these things that are happening. Like I just want to write software. Some people want to get and do infrastructure as code so DevSecOps is here. So how does that look like going forward? How has the future of Open Source going to make the developers just want to code quickly? And the folks who want to tweak the infrastructure a bit more efficient, any views on that? >> At Gaggle, we're using AWS' CDK, exclusively for our infrastructure as code. And it's a great transition for developers instead of writing Yammel or Jason, or even HCL for their infrastructure code, now they're writing code in the language that they're used to Python or JavaScript, and what that's providing is an easier transition for developers into that Infrastructure as code at Gaggle here, but it's also providing an opportunity to provide reusable constructs that some Devs can build on. So if we've got a very opinionated way to deploy a serverless app in a database and do auto-scaling behind and all stuff, we can present that to a developer as a library, and they can just consume it as it is. Maybe that's as deep as they want to go and they're happy with that. But then they want to go deeper into it, they can either use some of the lower level constructs or create PRs to the platform team to have those constructs changed to fit their needs. So it provides a nice on-ramp developers to use the tools and languages they're used to, and then also go deeper as they need. >> That's awesome. Does that mean they're not full stack developers anymore that they're half stack developers they're taking care of for them? >> I don't know either. >> We'll in. >> No, only kidding. Anyway, any other reactions to this whole? I just want to code, make it easy for me, and some people want to get down and dirty under the hood. >> So I think that for me, Docker was always a key part of this. I don't know when DevSecOps was coined exactly, but I was talking with people about it back in 2012. And when I joined Docker, it was a part of that vision for me, was that Docker was applying these security principles by default for your application. It wasn't, I mean, yes, everybody adopted because of the portability and the acceleration of development, but it was for me, the fact that it was limiting what you could do from a security angle by default, and then giving you these tuna balls that you can control it further. You asked about a project that may not get enough recognition is something called DockerSlim, which is designed to optimize your containers and will make them smaller, but it also constraints the security footprint, and we'll remove capabilities from the container. It will help you build security profiles for app armor and the Red Hat one. SELinux. >> SELinux. >> Yeah, and this is something that I think a lot of developers, it's kind of outside of the realm of things that they're really thinking about. So the more that we can automate those processes and make it easier out of the box for users or for... when I say users, I mean, developers, so that it's straightforward and automatic and also giving them the capability of refining it and tuning it as needed, or simply choosing platforms like serverless offerings, which have these security constraints built in out of the box and sometimes maybe less tuneable, but very strong by default. And I think that's a good place for us to be is where we just enforced these things and make you do things in a secure way. >> Yeah, I'm a huge fan of Kubernetes, but it's not the right hammer for every nail. And there are absolutely tons of applications that are better served by something like Lambda where a lot more of that security surface is taken care of for the developer. And I think we will see better tooling around security profiling and making it easier to shrink wrap your applications that there are plenty of products out there that can help you with this in a cloud native environment. But I think for the smaller developer let's say, or an earlier stage company, yeah, it needs to be so much more straightforward. Really does. >> Really an interesting time, 10 years ago, when I was working at Adobe, we used to requisition all these analysts to tell us how many developers there were for the market. And we thought there was about 20 million developers. If GitHub's to be believed, we think there is now around 80 million developers. So both these groups are probably wrong in their numbers, but the takeaway here for me is that we've got a lot of new developers and a lot of these new developers are really struck by a paradox of choice. And they're typically starting on the front end. And so there's a lot of movement in the stack moved towards the front end. We saw that at re:Invent when Amazon was really pushing Amplify 'cause they're seeing this too. It's interesting because this is where folks start. And so a lot of the obstructions are moving in that direction, but maybe not always necessarily totally appropriate. And so finding the right balance for folks is still a work in progress. Like Lambda is a great example. It lets me focus totally on just business logic. I don't have to think about infrastructure pretty much at all. And if I'm newer to the industry, that makes a lot of sense to me. As use cases expand, all of a sudden, reality intervenes, and it might not be appropriate for everything. And so figuring out what those edges are, is still the challenge, I think. >> All right, thank you very much for coming on the CUBE here panel. AWS Heroes, thanks everyone for coming. I really appreciate it, thank you. >> Thank you. >> Thank you. >> Okay. >> Thanks for having me. >> Okay, that's a wrap here back to the program and the awesome startups. Thanks for watching. (upbeat music)

>>from around the globe. It's the Cube with digital coverage of AWS reinvent 2020 sponsored by Intel AWS and our community partners. Welcome everyone to the Cube virtual and our coverage of the Accenture Executive Summit, which is part of AWS reinvent 2020. I'm your host Rebecca Knight. Today we're talking about the green Cloud and joining me is Kishore Dirk. He is Accenture Senior Managing director Cloud First Global Services lead. Thank you so much for coming on the show Key Shore. >>Nice to meet you, Rebecca. >>Great to have you. Yeah. So I want to start by asking you what it is that we mean when we say green cloud. We know the sustainability is a business imperative. So many organizations around the world are committing to responsible innovation lowering carbon emissions. But what does this? What does it? What does it mean when they talk about cloud from a sustainability perspective? >>E think it's about responsible innovation. Green Cloud is a thoughtful cloud first approach that helps boost profits and benefit the clients for helping reduce carbon emissions. Think about it this way. And you have a large number of data centers and each of these data centers are increasing by 14% every year, and this double digit growth comes with the price of Becca. What you're seeing is these global data centers consume a lot of power on the consumption is nearly pull into the consumption of a country like Spain. So the magnitude off the problem that is out there and and how do we pursue a green approach if you look at this hour? Accenture Analysis In terms of the migrations to public crowd, we have seen that we can reduce that by 59 million tons of CO two per year and with just the 5.9% reduction in top lighting emissions. And he creates this toe 22 million cars off the road. And the magnitude of reduction can go a long way. Meeting climate change commitments, particularly poor data sensitive businesses. >>Wow, that's incredible. What you're the numbers that you're putting forward are absolutely mind blowing. So how does it work? Is it a simple cloud migration? So, you know, >>when companies begin their cloud journey and and then they confront off with them a lot of questions. The decision to make uh, in this particular element sustainable in their solution and benefits. They drive and they had to make vice choices. And then they will gain unprecedented level of innovation, leading to both greener planet as well as a a green of balance sheet. I would say eso effectively. It's all about ambition. Greater the ambition, greater the reduction in carbon emissions. So from a cloud migration perspective, we look at it as a simple solution with approaches and sustainability. Benefits are that very based on things. It's about selecting the right cloud provider, very carbon thoughtful provider and the first step towards a sustainable cloud journey. And here we're looking at clown operators. You know, obviously they have different corporate commitments towards sustainability and that determines how they plan, how they build their the data centers, how they our and consume connections that operate there and how they retire their data centers. Then, uh, the next element that you want to do is how do you build it? Ambition, You know, for some of the companies, on average on Prem drives about 65% energy reduction and the carbon emission reduction of about 84% which is kind of OK and good I would say, But then, if you could go up to 98% by configuring applications to the cloud, that is significant benefit for for the world. And obviously it's a greener cloud that we're talking about. And then the question is, How far can you go? And, you know, obviously the companies have to unlock greater financial, societal environmental benefits. And essential has this cloud based circular operations and sustainable products and services that that you bring into play. So it's a It's a very thoughtful, broader approach that we're bringing and in terms off just a simple concept off migration s. >>So we know that in the covert era, shifting to the cloud has really become a business imperative. How is Accenture working with its clients at a time when all of this movement has been accelerated? How do you partner and what is your approach in terms of helping them with their migrations? >>Yeah, I mean, let me talk a little bit about the pandemic and the crisis that is there today, and and if you really look at that in terms of how your partner with a lot of our clients in terms of the cloud first approach. I'll give you a couple of examples. We've worked with Rolls Royce, McClaren, DHL and others as part of the ventilator UK Charon Consortium again to, uh, coordinate production of medical ventilators urgently needed for the UK Health Service. Many of these firms have taken similar initiatives in terms off, you know, from perfume manufacturers hand sanitizers. And to answer it is, is and again leading passion levels, making BP and again at the U. N. General Assembly. We launched the end to end integration Guy that helps company essentially to have a sustainable development goes. And that's how we're parting at a very large scale. Andi, if you really look at how we work with our clients and what's Accenture's role there? Uh, you know, from in terms of our clients, you know there are multiple steps that we look at. One is about planning, building, deploying and managing an optimal green color solution. And Accenture has this concept off helping clients for the platform to kind of achieve that goal. And here we're having. We're having a platform called Minor, which has a model called Green Clad Advisor, and this is the capability that helps you provide optimal green cloud, you know, a business case and obviously blueprint for each of our clients. And right from the start in terms off, how do we complete lower migration recommendation toe on improve solution accuracy to obviously bringing in the end to end perspective? You know, with this green clad adviser capability, we're helping our clients capture what we call it the carbon footprint for existing data centers and provide, uh, I would say the current cloud C 02 emissions core that you know, obviously helps them with carbon credits that can further their green agenda. So essentially, this is about recommending a green index score reducing carbon footprint for migration, migrating for green a cloud. And it really look at how accentuate itself is practicing. What we preached. 95% of the applications are in the cloud, and this migration has helped us. Uh, toe lied to about $42.5 million in benefit and in the third year, and and another three million analyzed costs that are saved through rightsizing service consumption. So it's a very broad umbrella and a footprint in terms of having engage societally with the U. N our clients. And what is it that we exactly bring to our clients in solving a specific problem? >>Accenture isn't is walking the walk as you say? >>Yes, So that that is that we we practice what we preach, and that is something that we take it to heart. We want toe have a responsible business and we want to practice it. And we want to advise our clients around that >>you are your own use case, and so they they know they can take your advice. So talk a little bit about the global, the cooperation that's needed. We know that conquering this pandemic is going to take a coordinated global effort and talk a little bit about the great reset initiative. First of all, what is that? Why don't we? Why don't we start there? And then we could delve into it a little bit more. >>Okay, so before we get to how we're cooperating, the great recent initiative is about improving the state of the world, and it's about a group of global stakeholders cooperating to simultaneously manage the direct consequences of their Cohen 19 prices andan spirit of this cooperation that you're seeing during Court 19 which will obviously either toe post pandemic project will the worth pressing issues. As I say, we're increasing companies to realize combined potential of technology and sustainable impact, to use enterprise solutions to address with urgency and scale and obviously multiple challenges that are facing our world. One of the ways that you're increasing, uh, companies to reach their Venus cloud with extensions cloud strategy is to build a solid foundation that is resilient. I would prefer to faster to the current as well as future times. Now, when you think of Cloud as the foundation that drives the digital transformation, it's about scale, speed, streamlining your operations and obviously reducing costs. And and as these businesses sees the construct of cloud first, they must remain obviously responsible and trusted. Now think about this right as part of our analysis that profitability can co exist with responsible and sustainable practices. Let's say that on the data centers migrated from on from the cloud based, we estimate, you know, that would reduce carbon emissions globally by 60 million tons for years. Andi, think about it this way, right? Easier Metric will be taking out 22 million cars off the road Thea Other examples that you've seen right in terms off the NHS work that they're doing in UK to build, uh, you know, a Microsoft teams were in based integration and the platform he rolled out for 1.2 million in it. Just users Onda. About 16,000 users there were able to secure instant messages, you know, obviously complete audio video calls and host working meetings across England. So this this work that we did with NHS is is something that we're collaborating with a lot of fools and powering businesses, not marriage. >>Well, you're vividly describing the business case for sustainability. What do you see as the future of cloud when thinking about it through this lens of sustainability and also going back to what you were talking about in terms of how you are helping your fostering cooperation within these organizations? >>That's a very good question, because so if you look at today, right, businesses are obviously environmentally aware, and they are expanding efforts to decrease power consumption, carbon emissions, and they want to run a sustainable operational efficiency across all elements of the business. And this is an increasing trend. And there is that option off energy efficient infrastructure in the global market. And this trend is the cloud. First thinking and with the right cloud migration that we've been discussing is what unlocking new opportunity, like clean energy transitions enabled, enabled by cloud based geographic analysis, material based reductions and better data insights. And this is something that, well, we'll drive with obviously faster analytics platform that is out there now. The sustainability is actually the future of business, which is companies that have historically different the financial security or agility benefits to cloud. Now sustainability becomes an imperative for them and our own experience. Accenture's experience with cloud migrations We have seen 30 to 40% total cost of ownership savings on its driving. Ah, greater workloads, flexibility, better service, somebody utilization and obviously more energy efficient public clouds that cost obviously well, that that drive a lot of these enterprise own data centers. So in our view, what we're seeing is that this this, uh, sustainable cloud position helps helps companies to a drive a lot of the goals, in addition to their financial and other goals. >>So what should organizations who are who are watching this interview and saying, Hey, I need to know more. What do you recommend to them and what? Where should they go to get more information on Green Cloud. >>You know, if you're if you're a business leader and you're thinking about which cloud provider is good, how should applications be modernized to meet our day to day needs Which cloud driven innovation should be priorities? Uh, you know, that's why Accenture, uh, from the Cloud First organization and essentially to provide the whole stack of cloud services to help our clients become a cloud first business. You know, it's all about exhibition. The digital transformation innovating faster, creating differentiated and sustainable value for our clients. And we're powering it up with 70,000 cloud professionals, $3 billion investment and bringing together unmasked depth and breadth of cloud services for our clients in terms of plant solutions and obviously the ecosystem partnership that we have that we're seeing today, Andi assets that help our clients realize that goes on and again toe do reach out to us way can help them to two men, obviously an optimal, sustainable cloud for solution that meets the business needs and being unprecedented levels of innovation. Our experience will be an advantage. And now more than ever, Rebecca. >>So just closing us out here, Do you have any advice for these companies who are navigating a great deal of uncertainty? We What? What do you think? The next 12 to 24 months. What do you think that should be on the minds of CEOs as they go >>forward. So as CEOs are thinking about rapidly leveraging cloud migrating to cloud off, one of the elements that we want them to be thoughtful about is can they do that with unprecedented level of innovation, but also build a greener planet and a greener balance sheet? If we can achieve this balance and and kind off have, ah, have, ah, world, which is greener. I think the world will win and we all along with extension of clients, will win. That's what I will say, Rebecca. >>That is an optimistic outlook, and I will take it. Thank you so much. Key shore for coming on the show. >>Thank you so much. >>That was Accenture's Key Shore. Dirk Rebecca. Night. Stay tuned for more of the Cube virtual coverage of the Accenture Executive Summit

>> From around the globe it's theCUBE, with digital coverage of AWS Public Sector Partner Awards brought to you by Amazon Web Services. >> Hello everyone. Welcome to the special CUBE coverage Of AWS Partner Awards Show. I'm John Furrier, host of theCUBE. We're here in our Palo Alto, California studio doing the remote interviews with our quarantine crew. Obviously during this time of COVID we're remote with the best Remote Work Solution Award for AWS Partner Awards goes to Tyler Technologies and the City of Alvin Municipal Court, and we have Sandy Peters, Vice President General Manager of Virtual Courts, an Incode court system. Sandy is here to talk about that and Sonya Cates, who's the City of Alvin's Municipal Court Court Administrator. Welcome and congratulations for the Best Remote Work Solution. We're remote! Congratulations. >> Thank you. >> (chuckles) Thanks, John, thanks. >> Okay so Sandy I'll start with you. Tyler Technologies, you're the General Manager of the Incode Court. This is a solution that you're deploying with the city of Alvin to do some things. Take a minute to explain what you guys are doing together, what does your group at Tyler do and how is it working with City of Alvin? >> Yeah John, Tyler Technologies is just completely focused on local, state and federal government software and services and particularly, the Incode court application focuses on municipal court, which is what Sonya is the Court Administrator for in Alvin. We have about 900 clients across the US that do that same thing. We had this idea about coming up with a remote solution for ability for someone to, instead of having to go to court to see a judge that they could do that remotely and really have the same experience and so we sort of launched off on that and worked with several different of our clients and came up with a way for that to happen. Sonya got involved in it very early on and has been instrumental in helping us continue to make it successful. >> Sonya, talk about the City of Alvin's municipal court system. Obviously with COVID people are sheltering in place and they're not moving around much. You have to have a solution. Talk about the partnership with Tyler. How did this come together, how do you guys work? Take us through that. >> Well we have a great relationship with Tyler Technologies. They are very instrumental in our day-to-day processing. They sent out an email with the idea, due to COVID, and soon as we received the email we decided that was the best solution for our court and we just immediately jumped on board with it so we could resolve cases and not get behind. >> So the Virtual Court means, okay, I get a ticket, I want to appeal it, normally I'd show up and now I can't so it interfaces it? Take me through the solution and where does AWS fit into all this? I'm assuming it's on the cloud. >> It definitely is on the cloud, John, and that's exactly right. So if you get a citation, sometimes you may want to appeal it; sometimes you just want to find out what your options are and you are going to go appear before a judge. You can do that remotely now through our application. It supports all the video, you can upload documents, exchange those supporting documents and then it interfaces with our case management system so that, as changes are made on the case, they're reflected and the defendant can see those and so it just, really, the whole idea is remotely being able to go before the judge, find out what your options are go through that process, and then at the very end it gives them a way to completely take care of that case and within a few minutes it can be completely resolved. >> Sonya take us through the City of Alvin's court system there. What's the challenges that you have and what was some of the feedback when you first brought this out? Take us through what happened. >> Well, to be honest, for us it was unknown territory. We were a little nervous, we were a little scared to do something of this sort but with the situation at hand we had to figure out something and this was the best fit for us. There was other options available but we prefer to stay within Tyler and utilize the system to its fullest so that's why we just said, "Okay, let's do this." I have a judge that's amazing that is very tech savvy and he was on board and my city manager. So just working with Tyler each step of the way and them comforting us, in a sense, to let us know, "Hey it's okay. "We're here each step of the way. "We'll build this together," and that's kind of where we started with the whole project. >> So this is a low-hanging fruit, obviously. It's not jury, I'm assuming. Not a jury kind of situation. It's more of other, non-jury activities, right? >> Right. It's the day-to-day court, you know, non-jury. We're not doing any jury trials right now until after the governor allows us. So it's just the regular, you know, pre-trials, the attorney dockets, arraignments and those sorts of cases. >> I'd love to be on the planning sessions as you start to roll out the software for jury selection. We'll go into that- >> I'm excited, I'm ready. >> Kind of like, what's your Facebook handle look like? (laughs) >> Yeah. >> You know, it's going to be digital surveillance. I don't know, could be crazy. But this is the future. This is what we're talking about here. This is all cloud scale. One of the benefits of cloud is taking things and doing experiments. We hear that all the time. Take us through the judge. So you said he's tech savvy. Are these like Zoom-like calls, is there a workflow? I'm just trying to envision what stood up in terms of the Incode Virtual Court side, Sandy. Sonya, what's it like? Take me through the experience. >> Well everything's tied in together, whereas Zoom and other options out there, it's separated from your software. So that was one of the perks of going through Tyler with this Virtual Court is because everything's tied into one. We don't have to enter data or anything. After the docket's over it's all live. Our forms, as soon as the defendant and the judge make an agreement, it's put into TCM where the defendant can see it live, sign the orders and immediately get it back to us and there's no delay time, there's no down time, and it's housed in one. So we're not having to miss data or, you know, it eliminates a lot of errors, clerical errors or cases from being missed. >> And the judge handles everything, right? He deals with the personal interactions, reviews the data, the defendant makes their case? >> Well (crosstalk), the clerics do a lot, too. He's talking, and as he's talking, we're entering his orders as he's speaking. >> So it's real-time- >> So we're interacting. >> This is true agility. Sandy, this is the future. This is where the solutions start to get the scale. So what's next? What is the vision? How do you guys see the next step because we all know that COVID will be over soon, we hope faster than it's happened, but it'll be a hybrid world and I think this shows a template for efficiencies. >> Right. Yes, yeah, I think that's a great point and it is the future. We're going to continue to leverage our relationship with AWS which has just been incredible through this process and went way beyond what we were expecting just in terms of resources and helping us even just within our own development processes, as we brought something to scale and in learning how to load test and really build applications that can scale out. So we believe it is the future and Sonya makes a great point many times because they live in an area where, sometimes, there's other natural disasters, like hurricanes, that can disrupt what's going on for them. But then, also, as you just think about, really, what I would call responsibility. As we move forward, we have a responsibility to provide ways that people can take care of things and not put themselves at risk as we move into the future, past COVID. So we're going to continue to leverage the technology that AWS provides, the scalability, how we can load test and everything and it was really a no-brainer for us to run this application on the AWS services for us. >> And Sonya, it's also not just about justice, not only getting the folks who are speeding and taking care of the penalties there, but it's also potentially for justice. If someone is not guilty or they want to get... business has to continue, right? So this extends into the use case of remote, hybrid, the future, because- >> Oh yes. >> Work can be distributed. Now you have efficiencies. This is going to create a connected system, which ultimately can be a connected community. >> Yeah, and it's going to reduce the failure to appear for court cases, also, so that'll be less warrants, more compliance, and it's a better relationship between us, the court, and our defendants, because they have the option of not having to leave work or miss appointments. You know, they can still tend to their case and do other things that they need to do without taking and spending, you know, couple of hours sitting in a room at the court. >> That's a huge point, Sandy. This is about resource utilization on both sides; not just the courts and the City of Alvin, on the municipal side, the citizens. It's efficiency. I mean how many people don't show up because they can't get out of work or they need to make their paycheck or they have their family needs need to be met. So all these things play into the psychology (chuckles) of life. This is digital life, virtualization of life. It really is a big thing. >> Yeah, yeah. I think you're exactly right, I mean, you're hitting on some great points. That's exactly right and when you think about what has to happen for you to go and maybe go before a judge and take off work, you got to go fight traffic, you got to find parking, you may have to have someone that takes care of your children. There's all sorts of things you're having to go through just to get down and be in front of a judge that this can help with and I think it's just one aspect, to your point, of really trying to think of really starting to help government think about how to be more customer centric, how to provide some ways for people to take care of what they need to take care of. So we're really trying, and your point about connected communities is a huge key point for us at Tyler, as we think of ways that we can help a community be more connected, for sure. >> Well you know I'm huge into whole civic relationships and having a productive government and having citizens be served for that reason and having it be a community, and now more than ever, transparency is helpful, right? This only helps things. So you guys are doing a really great job of, one, enabling a work environment remotely, in this case, it's for the courts to be operational, which they need to be, but it clearly can extend. So Sonya, I've got to ask you the question. I'd love to get your commentary on surprises when you rolled this out. You know, were people like, "Oh my god, no one's ever going to use it," or, "It's just too techie," or has there been any pleasant surprises or things that surprised you that you didn't think was going to happen? Give us some kind of commentary on some observations that you've seen from rolling out the Best Remote Work Solution. >> It's been very interesting. Our actual first defendant, he was elderly, and so we were kind of concerned. Okay, will he know how to connect and he did amazing. So that's kind of where we knew if we could reach the older generation and he can connect, all these younger defendants and younger people shouldn't have any issue. So we explained to him, "Hey, you're our first defendant. "This is new to us, it's new to you," and he did awesome. So that kind of gave us the confidence we needed to pursue it even more and push it out there and give the defendants options. There's been, we've looked (chuckles)... Some people forget, and so do I, that we're on camera and, you know (John laughs), we can see up noses, they forget they're in their vehicle, you know, it may hit a few bumps. >> John: There are dogs barking in the back (laughs). >> You know like, okay, maybe we need to pull over. (laughs) So it's been an experience but a pleasant experience and it gave us... We didn't want to backlog cases throughout this COVID and having the virtual option through Tyler has, we were, when COVID first started, we got behind, until we launched, we had about 800 cases we got behind on, and then soon as we launched out Virtual Court, now we're caught up, my court's running smooth, everything's great and there's no backlog of cases. >> Clear the backlog. The question I want to ask is that elderly first user. Did he or she get an early adopter discount on the sentence? (laughs) >> The judge was kind. (laughs) But he did awesome, I was shocked. >> I kind of resent the elderly remark, Sonya, but that's okay. (laughs) I think she's referring to me. >> No, no, no. He was in his 80s. >> Okay, I feel a little, I feel young, then. Well you guys, congratulations. I'd like to get your parting thoughts just with cloud technology. A lot of other folks out there are looking at re-imagining public service, specifically around these times where there's a lot of emotional stress, like, you got backlogged, you don't want to have the court get backlogged. I can see that. People don't want tickets hanging out there. But that kind of encapsulates people's feelings right now and I think remote citizenship is coming. Just your thoughts on how you see this as a beginning, starting point for cloud computing enabling the efficiencies, the solutions and the applications for a more connected community experience. Sonya, we'll start with you. >> Okay. I can see this, this is the way we're going to keep things. We like the option, the flexibility that our defendants, our citizens have. It's opened our eyes, and if there's other courts out there that are kind of hesitant to go ahead and jump in and do it, I strongly recommend just do it. It's scary in the very beginning because a lot of us were not used to it, but after you get through it and you go through the changes, it's so worth it in the end and you'll see such a... More of a compliance for both sides and, you know, it reduces the stress on staff having to send out mail notices for failure to appears and stuff of that sort. Reduce warrants. So it's been a win-win all the way around. So if I could reach any court out there that's kind of on the line of doing it, just do it. >> All right, yeah, great. Sandy. >> Yeah, and John, for us, cloud is the future. I mean every application we have, we're actively working, if it's not already a cloud-based solution, it will be and we're a huge believer in the scalability. But when you look at applications like this, as an example, of Tyler Virtual Court, where it's really a win-win situation. It's better for the court; they can continue to carry on their business; it's better for the citizen because now they can actually take care of something that they weren't going to be able to take care of in the past, and as we continue to find win-win solutions, cloud-based solutions are going to be at the core of that in terms of just how easy it is to access and roll out. So it's a big part of our future and we believe it's a big part of our customers' future, as well. >> Well congratulations. Modernization has positive impacts if done right. More time is freed up to work on maybe personal things and connect those communities and bring people together. Congratulations, Tyler Technologies and the City of Alvin for the Best Remote Work Solution and it's the court system. Get those tickets paid, clear that backlog and now you got all the time in the world, Sonya, to kind of work on other things. What do you do with all your free time? >> I'm going to take a vacation! (laughs) >> Thank you so much for having this conversation and, again, congratulations. Thanks for your time. >> Thank you. >> Thanks a lot, John, thank you. >> Okay this is the CUBE's covering of AWS Public Sector Partner Awards Show. I'm John Furrier with the Best Remote Work Solution. Thanks for watching. (futuristic marimba music)

>>from the >>Cube Studios in Palo Alto and Boston connecting with thought leaders all around the world. This is a cube conversation >>over and welcome to this special cube coverage of AWS Partner Awards show. I'm John Furrier, host of The Cube. We're here in our Palo Alto, California studio is doing the remote interviews with our quarantine Cruelty during this time of covert were remote with the best remote Work solution award for AWS Partner Awards goes to Tyler Technologies in the city of Alvin Municipal Court. And we have Sandy, Peter's vice president, general manager of virtual courts and in code court system. Sandy's here to talk about that. And Sonya Gates, who is a city of albums. Mutual court court administrator. Welcome. And congratulations for the best promote work solution. We're remote. Congratulations. Okay, so, CNI, I'll start with you. Tyler Technologies, You're the general manager of the encode Court. This is a vert. This is a solution that you're deploying with the city of Alvin to do some things. Take a minute to explain what you guys are doing together. What is your group of Tyler do And how is it working with City of Album? >>John Tyler Technologies is just completely focused on ah, local, state and federal government software and services. And, uh, particularly the code court application focuses on municipal court, which is what Sonya is the court administrator for Calvin. We have about 900 clients across the U. S that do that same thing. We had this idea about coming up with a remote solution for, ah, ability for someone toe instead of having to go to court to see a judge that they could do that remotely and really have the same experience. And so we sort of launched off on that Ah, and worked with several different of our clients and came up with a way for for that happens on you. I got involved in it very early on and has been instrumental in helping us continue to make it successful. >>When you talk about the city of albums based court system I've seen with Koven, people are sheltering in place and they're not moving around much. You have to have a solution. Talk about the partnership with Tyler. How did this come together? How do you guys were? Take us through that. >>Well, we we have a great relationship with Tyler Technologies. They are very instrumental in our day to day processing. They send out an email with the idea due to Coben, And as soon as we receive the email, we decided that was the best solution for for our court. And we just immediately jumped on board with it so we could resolve cases and not get behind. >>So the virtual court means okay, I get a ticket, I want to appeal it. No way would show up. And now I can't. So it interfaces and take me through the solution. And what is a best fit involved in some some things on the cloud. >>It definitely is on the cloud, John. And, um and that's exactly right. So if you get ah, you get a citation, sometimes you may want to appeal that sometimes you just wanna find out what your options are, and you are going to go appear before a judge. You can do that remotely now, through this through our application, it supports all the video. You can upload documents, exchange those ah, supporting documents. Ah, and ah. And then it interfaces with our case management system so that a sea change is we made on the case. They're reflected and the defendant can see those. And so it just really the whole idea is remotely being ableto go before the judge find out what your options are. Go through that process. And then at the very end, it gives them a way. The completely take care of that case on Within a few minutes, it could be completely resolved. >>So take us through the city of Alvin's court system there. What's the challenges that you have? Um And what was some of the feedback when you first brought this out? Take us through what happened? >>Well, to be honest, it was for us, it was unknown territory. We were a little nervous. We were a little scared to do something of this sort. But with the situation at hand, we had to figure out something, and this was the best fit for us. There was other options available, but we we prefer to stay within Tyler and utilize the system to its fullest. So that why we just said, Okay, let's do this. I have a judge. That's amazing. That is very tech savvy. And he was on board and my city manager. So just working with Tyler each way. You know, each step of the way, you know, in them comforting us in a sense, you know, to let us know. Hey, it's okay. We're here. Each step of the way will be built this together. And that's kind of where we started with the whole project. >>So this is a low hanging fruit. Obviously, it's not Jury, I'm assuming not a jury kind of situations. More of other non jury activities, right? >>It's the day to day court, you know, non jury. We're not doing any during Charles right now until after the governor allows us. So it's just the regular, you know, pre trials, the attorney dockets, arrangements and those sorts of cases. >>I'd be love to be on the planning sessions As you start to roll out the software for jury selection. We'll go into that kind of like what you're looking to look like, You know, it's going to be a digital surveillance. I don't know. It could be crazy, but this >>is the >>future. This is what we're talking about here. This is cloud scale. One of the benefits of cloud is is taking things and doing experiments. We hear that all the time. What's take us through the judge. So you see these tech savvy of these, like Zoom like, calls it like Is there a workflow trying? Envision what stood up in terms of the encode virtual courtside? Sandy, Sonia, What's What's it like? What's that? Take me through the experience? >>Well, everything's tied in together where a zoom and other options out there it's separated from your software so that, you know, that was one of the parts of going through Tyler with this virtual port is because everything's tied into one. We don't have to enter data or anything. After the dock, it's over. It's all live our forms. As soon as the defendant and the judge make an agreement, it put into TCM where the defendant can see it live, signed the orders and immediately get it back to us. And there's no delay time. There's no downtime, Um, and it's housed in one. So we're not having the mis data or, you know, it eliminates a lot of errors. Clerical errors are cases from being miss, >>and the judge handles everything right. He just he deals with the personal interactions reviews the data the defendant makes >>the clarity do a lot to. He's talking. And as he's talking, we're entering his orders as we speak. >>So it's real time thing. This is true agility. Sadie, this is the future. This is where the solutions start to get the scale. So what's next? What is the vision? How do you guys see the next step? Because, I mean, we all know that, you know, Kobe will be over soon. We hope faster than it's happened. But it will be a hybrid world. And I think this shows a template for efficiency. >>Yes. Yeah, I think that's a great point. And it is the future. We're going to continue to leverage our relationship with AWS, which has just been incredible to this process, and and, uh, we went way beyond what we were expecting just in terms of resource is and, uh, and helping us even just within our own development processes as we as we brought something to scale on in learning how to have a low test and, uh, really build applications that can scale out. And so we believe it is the future. And ah, Sonia makes a great point many times because they live in an area where sometimes there's other natural disasters, like hurricanes that can disrupt what's going on for them. Ah, but then also as you, as you just think about really what I would call a responsibility. As we move forward, we have a responsibility to provide ways that people can take care of things Ah, and not put themselves at risk. And a swee move into the future past Covad. Then s O. We're going to continue to leverage the technology that AWS provides the scalability, the how we can load test and everything. And, uh and it was really a no brainer for us toe run this application on the AWS services for us >>and Sonia. It's also not just about justice, not only getting the folks who are speeding and taking care of the penalties there, but it's also potentially for justice. If someone is not guilty or they want to get business has to continue, right? So this extends into the use case of remote hybrid the future because our work can be distributed now you have efficiencies. This is going to create a connected system which ultimately can be a connected community. >>Yeah, and it's going to reduce the failure to a rate here for court cases. Also, um, so that'll be less warrant more compliant, Um, in the easier. Well, it's a better relationship between us, the court and our defendants because they have the option of not having to leave work or miss appointments. You know, they can still attended their case and do other things that they need to do without taking a spin. A, you know, a couple of hours and sit in a room. And you know the court. >>That's a huge point. Sandy. This is about resource utilization on both sides, not just the court's and the city of Alvin on the municipal side. The citizens, it's efficiency. I mean, how many people don't show up because they can't get out of work or they need to make their paycheck or they have their their family? These need to be met. So all these things play into the psychology of of the way of life. This is digital life, virtualization of of the of life. It really is a big thing. >>Yeah. Yeah, I think I think you're exactly right. I mean you're hitting on some of the some great points. That's exactly right. And when you think about what has to happen for you to go and maybe go before a judge and ah, take off work, you've got to go buy traffic, find parking. You may have to have someone that takes care of your Children. There's there's all sorts of things that you're having to go through just to get down and and be in front of a judge that this can help with. And I think it's just one aspect to your point, really trying to think of, uh, really starting to help government think about how to be more customer centric out of provide some ways for people Teoh take care of of what they need to take care of. Uh and, uh and so we're really trying in your your point about connected communities. Is is a huge key point for us at Tyler, as we think of ways that we can help a community be more connected for sure. >>Well, you know, I'm huge into whole civic relationships and having a productive government and having citizens be served for that reasons and having it be a community. And this and now more than ever, transparency is helpful, right? This only helps things. So you guys are doing a really great job of one enabling a work environment remotely. In this case, it's for the courts to be operational. Is they need to be, But it clearly can extend. So, Sanjay, I gotta ask you the question. I'd love to get your commentary on surprises when you rolled this out. You know where people like Oh, my God, no one's ever going to use it or it's just too techy. Or has there been any pleasant surprises or things that surprised you that you didn't think was gonna happen to >>give us >>some kind of commentary on some observations that you've seen from from remote working, rolling out the best remote work solution? >>It's been very interesting. Um, we read our actual first defendant. He was elderly, and so we were kind of concerned. Okay, well, we know how to connect, you know, and he did amazing. So that's kind of where we knew if if we could reach the older generation and he can connect all these younger defendants and you know, younger people what shouldn't have any issues. So he was, you know, we explained to him, Hey, you're our first defendant. This is new to us. It's new to you. And he did awesome. So that kind of gave us the confidence we needed to pursue it even more and push it out there and give the defendants options. There's been, um we've looked. Some people forget, and so do I. That were on camera. And, you know, we see up with this, um, they forget their vehicle, you know, made it a few bumps, but it was like walking in the background. Yeah. Um, so it's been It's been an experience, but a pleasant experience. And it gave us where we didn't want a backlog of cases. There are over and having the virtual option through Tyler has We were like, Oh, it first started. We got behind until we launched about. We had about 800 cases we got behind on. And then as soon as we launched out virtual port. Now we're caught up, my courts running smooth, everything's great, and there's no backlog of cases. >>Clear. The backlog of the question I want to ask is that elderly first a user that did he or she get an early adopter discount on the sentence? >>Fine. Yeah, I was shocked. >>I kind of resent the elderly remark. I think he's referring to me. >>No, no, no, he was and he was in his eighties. >>Okay, I feel I feel young men while you guys congratulations. I like to get your parting thoughts. Just with cloud technology. A lot of other folks out there are looking at re imagining public service specifically around these times where there's a lot of emotional stress, like you got back long. You don't want to have the court get back. You can see that people don't want tickets hanging out there. But that kind of encapsulate people's feelings right now. And I think remote citizenship is coming. Just your thoughts on how you see this as a beginning starting point for cloud computing enabling the efficiencies, the solutions and the applications for more connected community experience. So we'll start with you. >>Okay. Um, I can see this. This is the way we're going to keep things. We like the option. The flexibility that are defendants or citizens have, um it it's opened our eyes And if you're if there's other courts out there that are kind of hesitant to go ahead and jump in and do it, I strongly recommend Just do it. It's It's scary in the very beginning because a lot of us, we're not used to it. But after you get through it and you go through the changes, it's It's so working in the end and you'll see such a more of a compliance for both sides and you know, it reduces the stress on staff. Having to send out Mel notice is, you know, for fire to appears and stuff of that sort produced warrants. So it's been a win win all the way around. Um, so if I could reach any court out there, that's kind on the line of doing that. Just just do it, >>Alright? Yeah, great. Sandy >>Gun and yeah, John. For us, Cloud is the future. I mean, every every application we have. Ah, we're actively working. If it's not already a cloud based solution, it will be Ah, and And we're a huge believer in the scalability. But But when you look at applications like this is as an example, Ah Tyler, virtual court, where it's really a win win situation. It's it's better for the court. They can continue to carry on their business. It's better for the citizen because now they can actually take care of something that they weren't going to be able to take care of in the past. And, Ah, and as we continue to find Win Win, uh, solutions cloud based solutions, they're going to be at the core of that in terms of just how easy it is to say excess and roll out. So it's a big part of our future, and we believe it's a big part of of our customer future as well. >>Well, congratulations. Modernization has positive impacts if done right, more times freed up to work on maybe personal things and connect those communes and bring people together. Congratulations. Tyler Technologies in the City of Album for the best remote work solution. It's the court system. Get those tickets paid, clear that backlog. And now you've got all the time in the world. So you take I work on other things. What do >>you do with your free time? I'm gonna take a vacation. Thank >>you so much. For thanks. Conversation and again. Congratulations. Thanks for time. >>Thank you. >>Okay, this is the Cube's coverage of AWS Public Sector Partners. Awards show I'm John Furrier with best remote work solution. Thanks for watching. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

>> from our studios in the heart of Silicon Valley, Palo Alto, California It is a cute conversation. >> Welcome to this cube competition here at the Palo Alto Cube Studios. I'm John for a host of the Cube. Were here a special guests to keep alumni investor An entrepreneur who do Sudhakar, would you Good to see you again, John. Always a pleasure. You've been on as an entrepreneur, founder. As an investor, you're always out. Scour in the Valley was a great conversation. I want to get your thoughts as kind of a guest analyst on this segment around the state of the Union for Enterprise Tech. As you know, we covering the price tag. We got all the top enterprise B to B events. The world has changed and get reinvent coming up. We got VM World before that. The two big shows, too to cap out this year got sprung a variety of other events as well. So a lot of action cloud now is pretty much a done deal. Everyone's validating it. Micro cells gaining share a lot of growth areas around cloud that's been enable I want to get your thoughts first. Question is what are the top growth sectors in the enterprise that you're seeing >> papers. Thank you for having me. It's always a pleasure talking to you over the years. You and me have done this so many times. I'm learning a lot from you. So thank you. You are so yeah, I think Let's dig into the cloud side and in general market. So I think that there are 34 areas that I see a lot that's happening a lot. Cloud is still growing, a lot 100% are more growth and cloud and dog breeders. And what is the second? I see, a lot of I T services are close services. This includes service management. The areas that service now isn't They're >> still my ops was Maybe >> they opt in that category. E I said With management, the gutter is coming with the new canticle a service management. So they're replacing idea some with a different. So that's growing 800% as a category tourist. RP according to again, the industry analysts have seen that it's going at 65 to 70% so these three areas are going a lot in the last one that I see a lot of user experience. Can you build? It's like it's a 20,000,000,000 market cap, something. So if you let it out, it's a cloud service Management services RP user experience cos these are the four areas I see a lot dating all the oxygen rest. Everybody is like the bread crumbs. >> Okay, and why do you think the growth in our P A. So how's the hype? Is it really what? What is going on in our pee, In your opinion, >> on the rumors I'm hearing or there is some companies are already 1,000,000,000 revenue run great wise. That's a lot in our piece. So it's not really a hype that really so that if you look and below that, what's happening is I'd be a Companies are automating automation. The key for here is if I can improve the user experience and also automate things. RPS started doing screen scraping right in their leaders, looking at any reservations supply chain any workflow automation. So every company is so complex. Now somebody has to automate the workflow. How can you do this with less number of people, less number, resources, and improve the productivity >> coming? R P A. Is you know, robotic process automation is what it stands for, but ultimately it's software automation. I mean, it's software meets cloud meets automation. It seems to be the big thing. That's also where a I can play a part. Your take on the A I market right now. Obviously, Cloud and A I are probably the two biggest I think category people tend to talk about cloud and a eyes kind of a big kind of territories. RPG could fall under a little bit of bulls, but what you take on a guy, >> Yeah, so I think if you look at our pier, I actually call the traditional appears to be historical legacy. Wonders and R P companies are doing a good job to transform themselves to the next level, right? But our pianist Rocky I score. It's no longer the screen skipping tradition, making the workflow understanding. So there are new technology called conversational Rp. There's actually a separate market. Guys been critical conversation within a Can I talk to in a dialogue manner like what you experienced Instagram are what using what's up our dialogue flow? How can I make it? A conversational RPS is a new secretary is evolving it, but our becomes have done a good job. They leave all their going out. A >> lot has been has great success. We've been covering them like a blanket on a single cube. Um, I got it. I got to get your take on how this all comes into the next generation modern era because, um, you know, we're both been around the block. We've seen the waves of innovation. The modern error of clouds certainly cloud one Dato Amazon. Now Microsoft has your phone. Google anywhere else really goes. Dev Ops, The devil's movement cloud native amazing, create a lot of value continues to do well, but now there's a big culture on cloud 2.0, what is your definition of cloud two point? Oh, how do you see Cloud 2.0, evolving. But >> I like the name close to party. I think it's your third. It is going to continue as a trained. So look, throw two point with eyes. I don't know what it will be, but I can tell you what it should be and what it can have. Some other things that should do in the cloud is cloud is still very much gun to human beings. Lot of develops people. Lot of human being The next addition to a daughter should have things done programmatically I don't need tens of thousands off Assad ease and develops people. So back to your air, upside and everything. Some of those things should become close to become proactive. I don't want to wait until Amazon. Easter too is done. If I'm paying him is on this money. Amazon should be notifying me when my service is going to be done. The subsidy eaters They operated Chlo Trail Cloudwatch Exeter. But they need to take it to a notch level. But Amazon Azure. >> So making the experience of deploying, running and building APS scalable. Actually, that's scales with Clavet. Programmable kind of brings in the RPI a mean making a boat through automation edge of the network is also interesting. Comes up a lot like Okay, how do you deal with networking? Amazons Done computing storage and meet amazing. Well, cloud and networking has been built in, I guess to me, the trend of networking kicks in big because now it's like, OK, if you have no perimeter, you have a service area with I o t. >> There's nothing that >> cloud to point. It has to address riel time programming ability. Things like kubernetes continues to rise. You're gonna need to have service has taken up and down automatically know humans. So this >> is about people keep on fur cloak. What should be done before the human in the to rate still done. It develops. People are still using terror from lot of scripting. Lot of manual. Can you automata? That's one angle The second angle I see in cloud 2.0 is if you step back and say What, exactly? The intrinsic properties of Claude Majors. It's the work floor. It's automation, but it's also able to do it. Pro, actually. So what I don't have to raise if I'm playing club renders this much money. Tell me what outrageous are happening. Don't wait until outage happens. Can you predict voted? Yes, they have the capability to women. It should be Probably steal it. No, not 100%. So I want to know what age prediction. I wonder what service are going down. Are notified the user's that will become a a common denominator and solutions will be start providing, even though you see small startups doing this. Eventually they become features all these companies, and they'll get absorbed by the I called his aircraft carriers. You have Masson agile DCP. They're going to absorb all this, a ups to the point that provide that as the functionality. >> Yeah, let's get the consolidation in second. I want to get your thoughts on the cloud to point because we really getting at is that there's a lot of white space opportunity coming in. So I gotta ask you to start up. Question as you look at your investor, prolific investor in start ups. Also, you're an entrepreneur yourself. What >> is? >> They have opportunities out there because we'll get into the big the big whales Amazon, who were building and winning at scale. So embarrassed entry or higher every day, even though it's open sources, They're Amazons, betting on open source. Big time. We had John Thompson talk about that. That was excessive. Something Nutella. And so what? What if I was a printer out there? Would what do I do? I mean, is there Is there any real territory that I could create a base camp on and make money? >> That's plenty. So there's plenty of white faces to create. Look, first of all your look at what's catering, look at what's happening. IBM is auto business in service management, CSL itself to Broadcom. BMC is sold twice to private companies. Even the CEO got has left our war It is. Then you have to be soldiers of the Micro Focus. The only company that's left is so it's not so in that area, you can create plenty of good opportunities. That's a big weight. >> Sensors now just had a bad quarter. So actually, clarity will >> eventually they're gonna enough companies to go in that space. That play that's based can support 23 opportunities so I can see a publicly traded company in service. No space in next five years. My production is they'll be under company will go a p o in the service management space. Same things would happen. Rp, Rp vendors won't get acquired A little cleared enough work for automation. They become the next day because of the good. I can see a next publicly traded company. What happened in the 80 operations? Patriotism Probably. Computer company Pedro is doing really well. Watch it later. Don't. They're going to go public next. So that area also, you see plenty of open record companies in a UPS. >> So this is again back to the growth areas. Cloud hard to compete on Public Cloud. Yes, the big guys are out there. There's a cloud enablers, the people who don't have the clouds. So h p tried to do a cloud hp They had to come out, they'll try to cloud couldn't do It s a P technically is out there with a cloud. They're trying to be multi cloud. So you have a series of people who made it an oracle still on the fence. They still technically got a cloud, but it's really more Oracle and Oracle. So they're kind of stuck in the middle between the cloud and able nervous. The Cloud player. If you're not a cloud player large enterprise, what is the strategy? Because you got HP, IBM, Cisco and Dell. >> So I don't know. You didn't include its sales force in that If I'm Salesforce, I want sales force to get in. They have a sales cloud marketing cloud commerce code. Mark is not doing anything in the area of fighting clothes. They cannot go from 100,000,000,000 toe, half a trillion trillion market cap. Told I D. They have to embrace that and that's 100% growth area. You know, people get into this game at some point. It'll be is already hard and 50,000,000,000 market cap. Then that leaves. What is this going to do? Cisco has been buying more security software assets, but they don't wanna be a public company, their hybrid club. But they have to figure out How can they become an arms dealer in escape and by ruining different properties off close services? And that's gonna happen. And I've been really good job by acquiring Red Heart. So I think some place really figuring out this what is happening. But they have to get in the gaming club they have to do. Other service management have begun and are here. They have to get experience. None of these guys have experienced in this day and age that you killed and who are joining the workforce. They care for Airbnb naked for we work. They care for uber. They care for Netflix. It is not betting unders. So if I'm on the border, Francisco, I'm not talking about experience That's a problem to me. Hey, tree boredom is not talking about that. That's what if I'm I know Mark is on the board. Paramount reason. But Mark is investing in all the slack. Cos then why is it we are doing it either hit special? Get a separate board member. They should get somebody else. >> Why? He wouldn't tell. You have to move. Maybe. I don't know. We don't talk about injuries about that. But I want to get back to this experience thing because experience has become the new expectation. Yes, that's been kind of a design principle kind of ethos. Okay, so let's take that. The next little younger generation, they're consuming Airbnb. They're using the serious like their news and little chunks be built a video service for that. So things are changing. What is? I tease virgin as the consumption is a product issue. So how does I t cater to these new experience? What are some of those experiences? I >> think all of them. But I think I d for Social Kedrick, every property, every product should figure out how to offer to the young dreamers how they were contributed offer to the businesses on the B two baby to see. So the eye has to think every product or not. Should I start thinking about how my user should consume this and how should out for new experiences and how they want to see this in a new way, right? It's not in the same the same computer networking. How can a deluded proactively How can a dealer to a point where people can consume it and make other medications so darn edition making? That's where the air comes in. Don't wait for me toe. Ask the question. Suggest it's like Gmail auto complete. Every future should be thinking through problem. Still, what can I do to improve the experience that changes the product? Management's on? And that's what I'm looking at, companies who are thinking like that connection and see Adam Connection security. But that has to happen in the product. >> I was mentioning the people who didn't have clouds HP, IBM, Cisco and Dell you through sales force in there, I kind of would think sales were six, which is technically a cloud. They were cloud before cloud was even cloud. They built basically oracle for the cloud that became sales force. But you mentioned service now. Sales force. You got adobe, You got work day. These are application clouds. So they're not public clouds per se they get Amazon Web service is, you know, at Adobe runs on AWS, right? A lot of other people do. Microsoft has their own cloud, but they also have applications as well. Office 3 65 So what if some of these niche cloud these application clouds have to do differently? Because if you think about sales force, you mentioned a good point. Why isn't sales were doing more? People generally don't like Salesforce. You think that it's more of a lock inspect lesson with a wow. They've done really innovative things. I mean, I don't People don't really tend to talk about sales force in the same breath as innovation. They talk about Well, we run sales for us. We hate it or we use it and they never really break into these other markets. What's your take on them? >> I think Mark has done a good job to order. Yes, acquiring very cos it has to start from the top and at the market. His management team should say, I want to get in a new space. He got in tow. Commerce. Claudia got into marketing. He has to know, decide to get into idea or not. Once he comes out, he's really taken because today, science. What is below the market cap? Com Part of it'll be all right. If I am sales force, I need to go back down. Should I go after service? No. Industry should go after entire 80 services industry. Yes or no, But they have to make a suggestion. Something with Toby Toby is not gonna be any slower. They will get into. I decide. They're already doing the eyesight and experience. They're king of experience. Their king off what they're doing. Marketing site. They will expand. Writing. >> What does something We'll just launched a platform. Yes, that's right. The former executive from IBM. That's an interesting direction. They all have these platforms. Okay, so I got together to the Microsoft Amazon, Um, Google, the big clouds and then everybody else. A lot of discussion around consolidation. A lot of people say that the recession's coming next year. I doubt that. No, nos. The consolidation continues to happen. You can almost predict that. But where do you see the consolidation of you got some growth areas as you laid out cloud I t service is our p a experience based off where looks like where's the consolidation happening? If growth is happening, they're words to tell. >> It was happening. Really Like I see a lot in cyber security. I'm in Costa Rica, live in public. You have the scaler, the whole bunch of companies. So the next level of cos you always saw Sisko Bart, do your security followed has been buying aggressively companies. So secret is already going to a lot of consolidation. You're not seeing other people taking it, but in the I T services industry, you'll start seeing that you're already seeing that in the community space. That game is pretty much over right. Even the ember barred companies, even Net are barred companies and the currency. So I think console is always going to happen. People are picking up the right time. It's happening across the board. It's a great time to be an entrepreneur creator value. They come this public. So it's like I think it's cannot anymore very time. Look to your point where the decision happens or not. Nobody can predict. But if a chance now, it's best time to raise money. Build a company. >> Well, we do. I think the analysis, at least from my perspective, is looking at all the events we go to is the same theme comes up over and over. And Andy Jassy this heat of a tigress always talks about Old Garden new Guard. I think there's two sides of the streets developing old way in a new way, and I think the modern architect of the modern era of computer industry is coming, and it looks a lot different than it. Waas. So I think the consolidate is happening on those companies that didn't make the right bets, either technically or business model wise, for they took on too much technical debt and could not convert over to the cloud world or these really robust software environment. So I think consolidations from just just the passing of holder >> seems pretty set up for a member of the first men. First Main Computing was called mainframe Era, then, with clients Herrera and Kim, the club sodas 6 2009 13 years old, the new Errol called. Whatever the name, it will be something with a n mission in India that things would be so automated. That's what we have new area of computing, So that's I would like to see. So that's a new trick, this vendetta near turn. So even though we go through this >> chance all software software sales data 11. Yeah, it's interesting. And I think the opportunity, for starters is to build a new brands. His new branch would come out. Let's take an example of a company that but after our old incumbent space dying market share not not very attractive from a VC standpoint. From market space standpoint, Zoom Zoom went after Web conferencing, and they took on WebEx and portability. And they did it with a very simple formula. Be fast, be cloud native and go after that big market and just beat them on speed and simple >> experience. They give your greatest experience just on the Web, conferencing it and better than sky better than their backs better than anybody else in that market. Paid them with reward. Thanks, Vic. He had a good >> guy and he's very focused. He used clouds. Scale took the value proposition of WebEx. Get rid of all the other stuff brought its simple to video conference. And Dr Mantra is one >> happening. The A applying to air for 87 management. A ops A customer surveys. >> So this is what our Spurs could do. They can target big markets debt and go directly at either a specific differentiation. Whether it's experience or just a better mouse trap in this case could win, >> right? And one more thing we didn't talk about is where their underpants go after is the area number. Many of these abs are still enterprise abs. Nobody really focused on moving this enterprise after the club. Hollis Clubbers are still struggling with the thing. How can I move my workload number 10%. We're closing the club 90% still on track. So somebody needs to figure out how to migrate these clouds to the cloud really seamlessly. The Alps are gonna be born in the cloud club near the apse. So how do you address truckload in here? So there's enough opportunity to go after enterprise applications clouded your application. Yeah, >> I mean, I do buy the argument that they will still be on premises activity, but to your point will be stealing massive migration to the cloud either sunsetting absent being born the cloud or moving them over on Prem All in >> all the desert I keep telling the entree and follow the money. When there is a thing you look for it Is there a big market? Are people catering there? If people are dying and the old guard is there to your point and is that the new are you? God will happen. And if you can bet on the new guard in your experience, market will reward you. >> Where is the money? Follow the money. Worse. What do we follow? Show me where it is. Tell me where it is >> That all of the clothes, What is the big I mean, if you're not >> making money in the club for the cloud, you are a fool right now. If there any company on making out making in the club as a CEO, a board member, you need to think through it. Second automation whether you go r p a IittIe automation here to make money on, said his management. Whether it's from customer service to support the operation, you got to take the car. Start off it if you are Jesse ever today and you're not making birds that cementing. I see it mostly is that still don't want to take it back. They want to build empires. The message to see what's right, Nice. Either you do it or get out. Get the job to somebody that >> I hold a lot of sea cells and prayer. Preparing for reinforce Amazon's new security cloud security conference and overwhelmingly response from the sea. So's chief security officer is we are building stacks internally. When I asked him about multi cloud, you know what they said? Multi cloud is B s. I said, Why? Because Well, we have a secondary cloud, but I don't want to fork my development team. I want to keep my people focused on one cloud. It's Amazon. Go Amazon. It's azure. We stay with Azure. I don't wanna have three development teams. So this a trend to keep the stack building internally. That means they're investing in building their own text. Axe your thoughts on that >> look, I mean, that's again. There's no one size fits all. There will be some CEOs who want to have three different silos. Some people have a hard, gentle stack like I've seen companies. Right now. They write, the court wants it, compiles, and it's got an altar cloth. That's a new irritability you're not. We locate a stack for each of them. You're right. The court order to users and NATO service is but using the same court base. That's the whole The new startups are building it. If somebody's writing it like this, that's all we have. Thing is the CEO. So there's that. The news he always have to think through. How can you do? One court works on our clothes? >> Great. You do. Thank you for coming on again. Always great to get your commentary. I learned a lot from you as well. Appreciate it. I gotta ask the final question as you go around the VC circles. You don't need to mention any names you can if you want, but I want to get a taste of the market size of rounds, Seed Round A and B. What are hot rounds? What sizes of Siri's am seeing? Maur? No. 10,000,000? 15,000,000? Siri's >> A. >> Um >> Siri's bees are always harder to get than Siri's. A seeds. I always kind of easier. What's your take on the hot rounds that are hot right now. And what's the sizes of the >> very good question? So I'm in the series the most easy one, right? Your concept. But the seed sizes went up from 200 K to know mostly drones are 1,000,000 2 1,000,000 Most city says no oneto $10,000,000. So if you're a citizen calmly, you're not getting 10 to 15. Something's wrong because that become the norm because there's more easy money. It also helps entrepreneurs. You don't have to look for money. See, this beast are becoming $2025 $5,000,000 pounds, Siri sees. If you don't raise a $50,000,000 then that means you're in good company. So the minimum amount of dries 50,000,000 and CDC Then after that, you're really looking for expansions. $100,000,000 except >> you have private equity or secondary mortgage >> keys, market valuations, all the rent. So I tell entrepreneurs when there is an opportunity, if you have something, you can command the price. So if you're doing a serious be a $20,000,000 you should be commanding $100,000,000.150,000,000 dollars, 2,000,000 evaluations right if you're not other guys are getting that you're giving too much of your company, so you need to think through all of that. >> So serious bees at 100,000,000 >> good companies are much higher than that. That'll be 1 52 100 And again, this is a buyer's market. The underpinnings market. So he says, more money in the cash. Good players they're putting. Whether you have 1,000,000 revenue of 5,000,000 revenue, 10,000,000 series is the most hardest, but its commanding good premium >> good time to be in our prayers were with bubble. Always burst when it's a bite, mark it on the >> big money. Always start a company >> when the market busts. That's always my philosophy. Voodoo. Thanks for coming. I appreciate your insight. Always as usual. Great stuff way Do Sudhakar here on the Q investor friend of the Cube Entrepreneur, I'm John for your Thanks >> for watching. Thank you.

>> Live from San Diego, California It's the queue covering Sisqo live US 2019 Tio by Cisco and its ecosystem barters >> Welcome back. We're here, Cisco Live San Diego. You're watching the Cubans to minimum. My co host is Dave Volante and happy to welcome to the program. First of all, I have to tell Valente, no relation was the vice president of product management who are Cloud Platform in Solutions group at Cisco. And joining us is also Santana Dasgupta, who's a distinguished systems engineer at Cisco. We're gonna be talking about service Friday. Gentlemen, thanks so much for joining us. Of course. Alright, so jail let let's start the service. Freida Group, Of course. You know, we've heard for a long time how important service fighters are out there. Everything from service writers were going to become the new channel. A Sze Yu know customers less unless they're building their own data centers. You know, service fighters become a bigger environment. Tell us a little bit about you know your organ the latest What's going on in your customers? >> Yeah, So you know what? Cisco Obviously they are trying to help Ray in the transformation to actually multi cloud leveraging. Actually, the cloud benefits not only for enterprises and public sectors, but also for the service providers so that they can also reaped the benefit off the new actually trans technologies coming out, including five g on in that context. Obviously, if you really want to take advantage of Far Gina proper way going forward, starting actually with an evolution of architectures, you really have to look at the clouds and specifically what we call the telco cloud. >> Yeah, so the Espy market is going through a mass killed transformation, transformation in the business model and architecture and how you take the services to the market on one key. And it blew up the transformation that we believe is virtual elation, adopting the whole notion of telco cloud very virtualized your core functions for enabling the delivery of services in a more agile fashion into the market. But also it's all about transforming the court services construct itself. How do we push on the services element into the age of the net for being closer to the proximity of the Indians so that it enables much? Lord didn't see a new monitor visible applications, which is where service order to have a lot of open right now. >> So if I could just dig in on that for 1st 2nd you talk about services. So we watched that wave of network functions virtual ization, NFI where before it was I just had lots of appliances and rolling out each service individually, as opposed to what people want is they want, you know, the basically, you know, at market for the enterprise. And, you know, I just want to be able to get my services. You know, when I'm a consumer and you know, I want to do things well, I've got the Internet and I get those things. I need a similar environment from the service fighters going out to the Enterprise. Do I have that kind of high level, right? >> Yes, actually, we had on that bath. I mean, they're completely years as an industry were on the journey to actually get there on go. We initially talked about most of the core functions, like think ofthe armory packet corner policy or some some value added engine at the back end. But the world is evolving faster. To actually also think through that how we can add more consumer facing applications and services on top of it, like augmented reality, virtual reality, cloud gaming and all that sort >> of stuff. Dale, this is a real imperative for telcos, and it's a complicated situation, right, because they've got decades and decades of infrastructure built up. Don Tapscott famously said one time that God may have created the world in six days, but he didn't have an install base. And so the telcos they have of kind of a fossilized, hard installed based built around making sure it's up and not necessarily agile. Now you got all these over the top players coming in, and all these value other services on top of dumb pipe, the price is air coming down. The demand for data is going up, so they gotta change. That's right, right? So what? What do they have to do and what role this Cisco play? >> So again, it told about that software defined transformation and win that is required. And they, you know, we talked already a bit more about the record, an example that was actually even showcase briefly this morning because certainly, obviously it's a greenfield operator, so it's a bit of difference, but We think that there is a lot off applique ability to brown field as well tow the legacy. You have to actually chuck into the different domains what, that service provider environment and really start looking at how you can offer both consumer services and business services at a price point at a level of automation and agility that makes sense. And that is pretty much comparable to a large extent to what the cloud providers of the week. Um, you know, there are advantages the service providers hive in terms ofthe. Obviously, the services they deliver today thie assets that they own, the proximity, the locations as well, that they have the relationships. But really, there is a, as we said earlier, Nassif transformation that start with the network, but also with those pockets where you need to Software eyes will turn to software many of those assets >> essentially talking about a specialized telco cloud, if you will. So how is that different from you know, the clouds that we know the private clouds, the hybrid clouds, the public clouds, one of the attributes that are different in how do people get on the company's getting telcos? Get in that journey. >> Yeah, well, I mean, if you look at, uh, the telco industry in general, including ourselves, like the vendors. I mean, I call myself for ourselves as, like, you know, coming back from the era of dinosaurs, right? So, I mean, if you look at the access technology for last three decades, what have changed? Nothing way have been moving from one G Tito Tito treaty to 40. Now we're talking a five g without talking off. A fundamentally destructive are differentiated architecture. So that's something which is actually being coming up all in the front front at the moment on, that's changing the way the networks can be built. How you can build on how you can break the monolithic supplication and adopt a more decomposed, desegregated our conjecture and also, at the same time, drive all the services and applications in a more distributed manner with a flexible placement capability, so that you can enable all sort of new applications and services. And again, I mean at the other. And given the fact that this is mostly a brown Fillon moment, it is largely all about culture transformation, given the fact that you know, unless the people process on, the culture revolves. This would be a very tough journey. Moving for >> one of the point back to your question is wellies. Though there are nuances big ones between a 90 cloud, uh, today in the cloud that are generally club general purpose Cloud that offered, you know, buy are obviously partners ws Microsoft, Google it and really a telco clan based on the nature ofthe those network functions. The workload on the nature of this were close. The traffic demand that they have the understanding or cliff There are how the hardware itself or the underpinning the infrastructure needs to have some specific attributes to make this work at scale. But we're trying to mimic as much as possible the scaling capabilities, the flexibility, agility, the elasticity of a cloud so that service providers can read the prophet off pretty much a general cloud >> involvement. Conceptually, there are a lot of similar out similarities. I presume that from a developer standpoint, there's a Dev ops analog, analog, maybe a cloud native, maybe serve earless. Something like server list functions absolutely in Telco cloud. >> Absolutely, absolutely. So what we see is the idea under Telco World are actually coming together because I need a lot ofthe telco expertise were also at the same time. I need a lot of expertise because that's what exact exactly right now happening. I mean, there's some fundamental differences between a standard righty private, our hybrid Claude and tell the cloud like I deploy our thousands or hundreds of locations are set a few locations. The applications are different. It's highly Io intensive. You're dealing with a lot of packets like millions of packets which are mostly are transiting function going in and out. But having said that while this initial deployment wave is being targeted for mostly for those delicate type of obligations, we're seeing a very clear demand on a journey towards a common goal of setting up our one unified cloud, right so that you can host it and telco all in the same cloud on that's exactly what they want sexually takes a reality. >> Well, in one of the things I'm surprised we haven't touched on yet is EJ Computing is, you know, critical for these environment. And I can't just have bespoke solutions for all of them. From my corrida edge toe, you know, Telco, there need to be communications amongst all of these because data is going to flow between them and therefore, it can't be. You know, Moz, in between them, I need to be able to pass data and have my applications access these various pieces. >> Absolutely. In fact, the way we have he'll concede some of the systems is a unified architecture that is distributed as a Delco plowed. So that actually from the new service managers or the new ways says B. S s. They see, actually, one unified cloud with placement capabilities based on constraints where you can actually put the workload where they need to be based on Soleil is based on the requirements in technical resources that are available, you know, from forage to a central DC and all the way to actually a public cloud because we're starting seeing some of the customers around the world. It's really a massive transformation that is global. Some of them are starting to look at how they can leverage the public cloud for bursting purposes, for disaster recovery, or even for other functions for specific applications that maybe less demanding, actually on the side. >> Well, since I know you were talking about how that one of the differences that hell cozier more distributed, you know, greater io intensity. My question is, can we learn from the telco clouds from a security model standpoint? Because normally if they go tell coz we're kind of behind traditional i t. But from a security model astounds maybe more challenging. And you always hear the traditional i t. So we it's going to the edge, the telcos already there. So is the security model actually more advanced than what can we learn from that? And how is it >> evolving? Yeah, the security model is still evolving. So in fact, I would say for the total cloud which is being done at the more Court Central Data Center location, the security model is pretty advanced. But when things go towards the edge, especially its computing, which is huge, the security model is actually evolving. And we see a lot of promises with things such as, you know, secure chain of trust, or even block Chinn actually coming there and trying to play a huge role. So I think that's one area which we expected you all over the next few years. It's a lot of challenge but also you know, it's very exciting in that particular space. >> And actually those. This is a very key point because that infrastructure from service providers is actually usually many of the country's part of the national assets the cyber securities. The agencies in those countries work actually with Cisco Security Trust officer letters to really make sure that we do have a level of security that goes beyond maybe even the boundaries of what we've seen on enterprise. So yes, to your point, there is a lot of advances in that area as well. >> All right, so jail, half the shows I've been to this year have had a breakout for Telco. There's there's no denying that there's a lot of growth and a lot of change happening in that environment. What differentiates Cisco's approach from the rest of the people looking at the multi cloud and software pieces >> so more people are murky? Pool area is first. Obviously we have these murky cloud or this hybrid cloud view in which we have worked with the best out there. The Web scale providers, the cloud providers. In fact, if I look at racket and others there are even mimicking this notion off a sorry the Google approach to, you know, really the reliability enginering the transformation off those class cloud in a very specific way. Theater aspect is we're doing it. We have a holistic view at the Telco Cloud. It's not just the infrastructure, it's the automation. The automation is absolutely critical that there is absolutely no touch from humans to be able actually to manage of that scale even more so if you deploy it in 1,000 of edge points, it has to be completely actually automated. So the aspect ofthe automation, the aspect of security, the aspect of people transformation, organizational as well is something that, between the service component to this other solution and the products is very unique. And what we do, it's Cisco. >> Yeah, if I may just add one thing on top of that, just chill said right. So if you look at our playing the Espy or telco market, we have a comprehensive solution. We are solutions right from routing Optical Jacinto Compute Telco, Claude Watch television automation, melodic or being gcm. Here's a bunch of stuff, right? But what becomes very interesting is if you look at 55 g and we all are talking up. The five G is going to be all about enterprise services now. Think about it for a while, right? Who is the number one dominant player in the market for a better price, with the deepest portfolio absolution and the farthest reaching there? No price market that Cisco. So that's what we believe, that we can actually really, you know, creator right confluence of border side of the technology to create the right offer for our customers and held them to take to the market. >> In fact, we've taken a number off our very large enterprise customers that journey to understand, from their point of view as well how they could leverage five g wife like six in the context off a mobile first cloud first type environment. And it's across permeates, actually, obviously what those service providers need to offer to grow again beyond customer services, which is not where, actually the you know, the hyper growth will be as faras Service school sir, >> Well, jail in Santa Ana. Thank you so much for sharing the updates. What happened? Tell Cho service provider space. Thanks so much for joining us. Everybody alright, We'll be back with lots more water wall coverage here at Cisco alive. San Diego 2019 for David Dante on stew Minimum. And thank you for what? Thank you.

>> from Palo Alto, California It's the Cube covering the EM Where women transforming technology twenty nineteen. Brought to you by V. M. Where. >> Hi Lisa Martin with the Cube on the ground at the end. Where. Palo Alto, California For the fourth Annual Women Transforming Technology Even W squared. Excited to welcome back to the Cube. Kathy Chou, VP of R and D. Operations and central services at work. Cappy. It's a pleasure to have you back. It's one of you will be back. So you and I saw each other this morning. Big hug. This is one of my favorite events to be at, and I'm proud to be here with the cute because this this authentic community of women is unlike anything that I've really seen or felt in a long time. Fourth annual. I know it's grown over the last year. What do you What are some of your thoughts, even just walking in the doors this morning? Well, it's funny. It is the fourth annual and I I've been toe all four. The very first time I came, I was not a B M or employee, and I fell in love with the company. The campus because it was the very first time. And every single time I come to one of these events, I either meet someone or multiple people better fantastics or learn multiple things that will help me do what I need to do and I will tell you, and I'm not just saying cause you're here. But last year when I met you, I just felt like there was an instant spark. And like you say at these conferences, don't you feel it's safe? You can. You could be authentic. You could be who you want to be. You could be vulnerable, right? And as we can learn with each other, we can share what we need to work on. You move on and we can also Peter chests a little bit right for stuff that we've done well that sharing is so critical. Eye all the women that I've spoken to today we look at even our own career. Trajectories are looking at a lot of the statistics of the loan numbers that women technology where where is the attrition happening? What's happening in and grade school in middle school when girls, you know between seven and twelve years old, way have to help each other build up cos it's just and I think there's no better >> way than sharing stories and cheer point that means being vulnerable. I think vulnerability is one of the best price you can exhibit, period. But it used truly conceit and feel the impact Hearing. >> As you've said, you've seen that over the last four years that this is really an authentic community in every >> sense of the word. Absolutely. And, you know, you mentioned quite a few things that I'd like to talk about. So first, is these >> young. Let's start first with diversity. Okay, I know a lot of people do talk aboutthe. They think of gender diversity or ethnic diversity. Diversity of the capital. >> Dia's much broader, right? It's okay. Diversity of experience, education, you know, geography, seniority, right. There's all different types of diversity. But if we do hope, focus in a little bit on young girls. Right? Because you think about that. I was just in the I wish conference in Cork, Ireland. Stop back. Yeah. And what was amazing about that was so this is all of Court County. They had all of the what they called secondary school girls every single one of them for two days at this conference. But they got to listen to speakers from all over the world to give them that confidence to stay in, because statistics are when they're in primary school or middle school. Right? Girls say I want to be a computer scientist. I wantto do this techie thing. I'm gonna do Sam with them when they go to high school there, given all these messages like, you can't do it and you don't look like a computer scientist, right? And then all of a sudden it gets It becomes because in her head and it really does affect our confidence. And then, sad to say, years and years ago, when I graduated from college, there was only nine percent of the women were mechanical engineers. Sad to say today, that number is not challenged much. Do something just conferences like these that give us the courage to be better mentors and sponsors of those that will come after us. >> I agree. I think that it's and in some cases it seems like it's so simple where we make I don't think we're making this so hard, but I think that having the opportunity of a community to just have okay like minded people in terms of experiences that they shared well, how did you get through this barrier of, for example, you know, really kind of dissecting to your point diversity with a capital B. There's so many layers to that. What does that mean? How do we achieve it? I mean, if you look at a lot of the statistics companies that have you say females, uh, on the executive staff are like twenty seven percent more profitable. Yes, the amount of oven of reinvesting of income that women do back into the community. Their family's one of the things, Joy said this morning in her keynote joyful Fulham. We need him saying that, >> right? So is it looking at women and people of color as the underrepresented majority that that was absolutely spot on? I absolutely >> thought it was spot on this well, and you know, if you think about it, think about these experiences. You know again about diversity. There's a new dawn. It's a new phrase. But intersectionality is the word, which means, you know Okay, you're a woman. I'm a woman. I'm an Asian woman, But I'm also a woman that lived on the East Coast. I went to these sorts of schools. I had these types of experiences. So what it means is everyone bring something to the table. So if you really think about diversity now, we'LL hear this talk about inclusion. That's kind of the big word. And I've I've actually witnessed this myself on my own team because if you look at my direct staff on paper, when you look at them, they look very diverse. But actually diversity. That's like the tip of the iceberg. What you see is only the little piece when you bring down, get to those deeper layers. You realize, >> really how diverse team Miss Wright of spiritual >> diversity, experiential all of that and by including and created a inclusive environment were able to get the most out of diversity. And I think that's how you do it, because I thought about this. When you single out groups, you're not being inclusive, right? That's a good point. So I think the goal is to get what we can call the model. What we think is the majority, which is the minority to embrace the underrepresented majority and >> your perspective? How do you think V m? Where is doing on that? I was talking with Betsy said earlier, and some other folks and learned that the eggs I don't know how far down this goes, but at least execs are actually their bonuses are related to our tied to diversity and inclusion. That's a huge kind of bold statement that a company like the Mars making, not just to the tech industry, but every industry. Where do you think the emperor is on this journey of really identifying diversity and inclusion and actually starting to realise the positive impact? >> Yes. So first of all, I think you said something earlier. This is a It's an epidemic situation. OK, in that I do tell me, almost in every industry, there isthe right entertainment manufacturing, high tech, legal, professional, whatever way, there's an issue with diversity, and you're absolutely right. The peace and above our bonuses air tied to diversity, inclusion the awareness of the, um, where is second of them. The interesting thing is, there's no silver bullet. If it were that easy, we would've solved it. So what? It iss. It's one of those things where I say it takes a village and it's little things like talk about inclusion earlier, right? Hey, when you have a meeting, make sure everyone's voices voices are heard. Doesn't matter who it is. I don't care if it's a woman and under represent minority or white male. It doesn't matter. You shouldn't it? It shouldn't right. Everyone should be heard. And I was just giving a breakout talk about when you increase. Inclusion will drive more innovation. And that's my job as a leader of six hundred folks in an RD organization is to create that culture that allows people to have confidence, to take risks, to be vulnerable, authentic and to innovate right and to do new things. And if I can create that culture of inclusion, it will drive those business results. >> I couldn't agree more Tell me about like since we spoke last year. I love that driving inclusion to drive innovation. What are some of the things that you've actually seen as outcomes? Maybe just for your team as well as your own expertise as a manager? >> Yes. So I've been with him where for two and a half years, and when I first came Basically my team was a compilation of three separate teams, so each of them traditional silo new themselves in their own style but did not understand the power of the team across. So at that time, no one team was greater than one hundred people. Okay, let's say now imagine a mighty force of six hundred strong marching in the same direction, trying to do things together. One of the things that we're trying to do is start to build platforms across our organization. And what are the commonalities? That that's the difference is what commonalities across our teams so that we can drive that innovation much more effectively and efficiently. And so those are some of the things that we're doing have another fun story to tell me. Everything that I do to try to create an inclusive environment, just have opportunities for team members to meet each other. It's a simple assed. Hey, I don't know. Lisa. Lisa, what do you do? Oh, my gosh. I have a project that might need your help. I don't know how many times when we were working in the silos would enter calling someone outside our team to get the expert advice when it was on her own. And so we had one event when we had two people that sat next to each other. They didn't know each other at all. One needed some machine learning expertise. The other one was in machine learning enthusiast Fast. They came together. They have now built a patent pending piece of micro service called instead ML. That's so, uh, that's what happens when people when you're included >> and you think, Why is it so difficult? In some cases, technology is sort of sort of fuels that right because we get so used to being I could do everything from here >> on the phone from an airplane from the hotel from home, from or ever so we get more >> used to being less communicative. Absolutely right, Tio. Let's actually let's let's go back to the olden days where there were, You know, there was no device and phoniness and actually have a conversation because to your point, suddenly are uncovering. Oh my gosh. All of these skill sets are here. What if we did nothing for years? >> You're speaking my language. Eso You're absolutely right. But there's this. They used to be this rule that's a new one you wanted to communicate to someone. You have to tell them something seven times, >> right, because they're busy doing other times on the age of social media, they say. Now it's eleven times. Oh, great. And how I got exactly. So how often have you seen people who are sitting like this and they're >> communicating with each other? Be attacks and they're sitting right here. Why, it's >> important to go back old school. By the way, I think I'm old school. >> Whenever I want to pick up the phone, talk to my kids. It's on the phone. I don't care if they're, uh, ready for me to talk >> to her, and I just called them. It's because when you're innovating, it's not just the mind, it's the heart. >> And when you catch those human relationships, right is what makes the innovation stick. It makes you want to do more. It makes you want to achieve greater heights. Then you would have cause you're invested. You see, when it's an academic exercise, it's like check the box. But when you're invested in your hearts and you I feel like I can't let Lisa down, believe me, you're going to get more in depth and more advanced innovation. >> So with that and kind of the empathy approach in love to get your perspectives on a I, we talk about it all the time at every event that we go to on the Cube globally. And there's different schools of thought. Aye, aye is fantastic. It's phenomenal. It's it's becoming new standard, even a baby boomers known to some degree what it is. Yes, then there's the It's taking jobs away yet, But he's going to create new jobs. Yes, and there's the whole ethics behind this morning. Joy really kind of showed us a lot of the models and facial recognition at big companies that are better being built with bias. But one of the things I think that I hear resoundingly at events is it's going to be a combination of humans and machines. Yes, because machines can learn a lot. But it's that heart that you just mentioned in that empathy that comes from the human. So do you see those two as essential forces coming together is a. I continues to grow and take over the world. >> It's essential. Like you say. Technology is very How do we sit? Neutral. Okay, If you put it in front of a bad actor, it becomes bad. If you put it in front of a good actor, it becomes good. Okay, so technology is neutral, right? So now the goal is how do >> we ensure that we Khun tamp down the bad actors, people who want to use it for bad? And >> by the way, I am a fundamental believer that there are some jobs that should be automated. >> I mean, come on, some of the And by the way, things >> in the health industry. When you have big data and you've got a lot of things, you have to process a lot of information so we could be more accurate on things. Um, there other examples of if it's not in check, it can go right, right. Where will Over reliance on machines. Unfortunately, the seven. Thirty seven max eight is an example of it being too smart, right, and that >> you needed the human to actually adjust. So now I think also kind of combining a lot of the topics that we talked about. We need to train our children to understand that this technology is here to stay and with each and every one of them, how can they take that wonderful technology and use it for good? And I think that's the whole that's peace around inclusion. That's the peace around, building confidence in these young people and being examples. And so we need more people like joy out there so that she can. She has now raised this flag up saying, Hey, did you realize this >> happen? We need more young people. By the way, she's very young person. I'm >> totally impressed with what she's been able to do in here great for years, very, very inspiring. But if we all did a >> little bit of what joy did, we could change the world. >> Absolutely. The accountability factor and the social responsibility is so important. I was impressed with her on many levels, but one of them was the impact that she's already making with with Microsoft, IBM, uh, and actually starting to impact facial recognition a. I based on the research that she's done and show them Hey, you've got some problems here. So she's She's kind of at that intersection of your point neutral technology, good actors, bad actors. Maybe it's not good or bad. It's just Well, this is the data that we have. And it's training the models to do this. Oh, the but the accountability in the responsibility that it appears that a Microsoft and IBM face plus plus and even Amazon that she said, Hey, guys, look at how far off your models are. It sounds like these companies are actually starting to take some accountability. Civility for >> that? Yes, well, I think she proved it in our talk because last year, right, the numbers were in the eighty eighty percent tiles, and now they're up to ninety five. So you know, she's saying, by kind >> of being that lightning rod on this issue, one person could make this amount of change. Imagine if all was just a fraction of what she did, right? I mean, I think, and again, I feel very because I'm older and I have my own children just inspiring this generation, too. We could build up more joys in this world. >> So you have four boys. Yes. How are you inspiring them to finally become good humans, but also to look at the technology, the opportunities that it creates to be inclusive why it's important that some of the lessons that even parted on your boys >> Yes, first of all, I've one thing that's really >> important to me is I want them to accept whoever their partner will be for whatever they want to do. So if their partner wants to stay home and then you support them, if they want to work and go, do you support them? But just be supportive, be that partner, whatever that is, that's really important. >> The other thing is, I think just >> my husband and I are excellent examples of how that isthe, because he's an orthodontist and I've got a busy high tech job. I'm traveling a lot. My husband does more than his fair share of the household duties, and we split things pretty evenly. So I hope they've seen witness. It's not just talk, it's action and that this can actually work. And fortunately, I'm >> boys are a little older now because if you begin in the beginning, I thought, Oh, working. I don't >> know how these boys are going to turn out right, but three of them are college age and older, and they really turned into some fantastic children. The youngest is on his path as well as a junior in high school. And, you know, and I also see the type of friends that they make and how they treat women and other people that are different from them, and it just makes me very proud. >> Think the world needs more? Kathy Chow's I really dio Are you going off to see Ashley Judd? Her? What? Some of the things that you're looking >> forward to hearing her talking. Well, it's funny. I just came from a VP session. She is I again. You see someone right on the screen and you see him as an actor and you heard about Time's up and her speech and that sort of thing. But way had, but how were we just answered? Questions. She is so thoughtful, so connected, so well spoken communicates in a way that really touches you. She's another one of those lightning rides. I think w t, too, didn't excellent job of getting English speakers this year. Uh, and it's very different from joy. It's much more from a from her view, in her mind went in arts, and Joyce was much more from a technical aspect. But messages are the same, right? It's to be inclusive, understanding, embrace diversity and be authentic. You >> inclusive animators. Kathy is so great to have you back on the Cube. And Charlie, I know we could keep chatting, but we thank you so much of your time. We can't wait for next year. Wait. Excellent. Thank you for the Cuban Lisa Martin. You're >> watching the show from women Transforming Technology, fourth annual somewhere. Thanks for watching.

[Music] Andre one of the things that have come up is your relation with Russia as we talked about so I have to ask you a direct question do you to work with sanctioned Russian entities or Russian companies shown we and c5 we do not work with any company that's sanctioned from any country including Russia and the same applies to me we take sanctions very very seriously the one thing you don't mess with is US sanctions which has application worldwide and so you always have to stay absolutely on the right side of the law when it comes to sanctions so nothing nothing that's something that's connection nets are trying to make they're also the other connection is a guy named Victor Vail Selberg Viktor Vekselberg Vekselberg to go with the Russian names as people know what is your relationship with Viktor Vekselberg so victim Viktor Vekselberg is a is a very well known Russian businessman he's perhaps one of the best known Russian businessman in the West because he also lived in the US for a period of time it's a very well-known personality in in in Europe he's a donor for example to the Clinton Foundation and he has aggregated the largest collection of Faberge eggs in the world as part of national Russian treasure so he's a very well known business personality and of course during the course of my career which has focused heavily on also doing investigations on Russian related issues I have come across Viktor Vekselberg and I've had the opportunity to meet with him and so I know him as a as a business leader but c5 has no relationship with Viktor Vekselberg and we've never accepted any investment from him we've never asked him for an investment and our firm a venture capital firm has no ties to Viktor Vekselberg so you've worked had a relationship at some point in your career but no I wouldn't on a daily basis you don't have a deep relationship can you explain how deep that relationship is what were the interactions you had with him so clarify that point so so I know Viktor Vekselberg and I've met him on more than one occasion in different settings and as I shared with you I served on the board of a South African mining company which is black owned for a period of a year and which Renova had a minority investment alongside an Australian company called South 32 and that's the extent of the contact and exposure I've had to so casual business run-ins and interactions not like again that's correct deep joint ventures are very kind of okay let's get back to c5 for a minute cause I want to ask you it but just do just a circle just one last issue and Viktor Vekselberg Viktor Vekselberg is the chairman of scope over the Russian technology innovation park that we discussed and he became the chairman under the presidency of President Dmitry Medvedev during the time when Hillary Clinton was doing a reset on Russian relations and during that time so vekselberg have built up very effective relationships with all of the or many of the leading big US technology companies and today you can find the roster of those partners the list of those partners on the scope of our website and those nuclear drove that yes Victor drove that Victor drove that during during in the Clinton Secretary of this started the scope of our project started during the the Medvedev presidency and in the period 2010-2011 you'll find many photographs of mr. vekselberg signing partnership agreements with very well known technology companies for Skolkovo and most of those companies still in one way or another remain involved in the Skolkovo project this has been the feature the article so there are I think and I've read all the other places where they wanted to make this decision Valley of Russia correct there's a lot of Russian programmers who work for American companies I know a few of them that do so there's technology they get great programmers in Russia but certainly they have technology so oracles they're ibm's they're cisco say we talked about earlier there is US presence there are you do you have a presence there and does Amazon Web service have a presence on do you see five it and that's knowing I was alright it's well it's a warning in the wrong oh sorry about that what's the Skog Obama's called spoke over so Andres Kokomo's this has been well report it's the Silicon Valley of Russia and so a lot of American companies they're IBM Oracle Cisco you mentioned earlier I can imagine it makes sense they a lot of recruiting little labs going on we see people hire Russian engineers all the time you know c5 have a presence there and does AWS have a presence there and do you work together in a TBS in that area explain that relationship certainly c5 Amazon individually or you can't speak for Amazon but let's see if I've have there and do you work with Amazon in any way there c-5m there's no work in Russia and neither does any of our portfolio companies c5 has no relationship with the Skolkovo Technology Park and as I said the parties for this spoke of a Technology Park is a matter of record is only website anyone can take a look at it and our name is not amongst those partners and I think this was this is an issue which I which I fault the BBC report on because if the BBC report was fair and accurate they would have disclosed the fact that there's a long list of partners with a scope of our project very well known companies many of them competitors in the Jedi process but that was not the case the BBC programme in a very misleading and deceptive way created the impression that for some reason somehow c5 was involved in Skolkovo without disclosing the fact that many other companies are involved they and of course we are not involved and your only relationship with Declan Berg Viktor Vekselberg was through the c5 raiser bid three c5 no no Viktor Vekselberg was never involved in c5 raiser Petco we had Vladimir Kuznetsov as a man not as a minority investor day and when we diligence him one of our key findings was that he was acting in independent capacity and he was investing his own money as a you national aniseh Swiss resident so you if you've had no business dealings with Viktor Vekselberg other than casual working c-5 has had no business dealings with with Viktor Vekselberg in a in a personal capacity earlier before the onset of sanctions I served on the board of a black-owned South African mining company and which Renault bombs the Vekselberg company as a minority investment alongside an Australian company called South 32 and my motivation for doing so was to support African entrepreneurship because this was one of the first black owned mining companies in the country was established with a British investment in which I was involved in and I was very supportive of the work that this company does to develop manganese mining in the Kalahari Desert and your role there was advisory formal what was the role there it was an advisory role so no ownership no ownership no equity no engagement you call them to help out on a project I was asked to support the company at the crucial time when they had a dispute on royalties when they were looking at the future of the Kalahari basin and the future of the manganese reserve say and also to help the company through a transition of the black leadership the black executive leadership of the cut year is that roughly 2017 so recently okay let on the ownership of c5 can you explain who owns c5 I mean you're described as the owner if it's a venture capital firm you probably of investors so your managing director you probably have some carry of some sort and then talk about the relationship between c5 razor bidco the Russian special purpose vehicle that was created is that owning what does it fit is it a subordinate role so see my capital so Jones to start with c5 razor boot code was was never a Russian special purpose vehicle this was a British special purpose vehicle which we established for our own investment into a European enterprise software company vladimir kuznetsov later invested as an angel investor into the same company and we required him to do it through our structure because it was transparent and subject to FCA regulation there's no ties back to c5 he's been not an owner in any way of c5 no not on c5 so C fibers owned by five families who helped to establish the business and grow the business and partner in the business these are blue chip very well known European and American families it's a small transatlantic community or family investors who believe that it's important to use private capital for the greater good right history dealing with Russians can you talk about your career you mentioned your career in South Africa earlier talk about your career deal in Russia when did you start working with Russian people I was the international stage Russian Russia's that time in 90s and 2000 and now certainly has changed a lot let's talk about your history and deal with the Russians so percent of the Soviet Union I think there was a significant window for Western investment into Russia and Western investment during this time also grew very significantly during my career as an investigator I often dealt with Russian organized crime cases and in fact I established my consulting business with a former head of the Central European division of the CIA who was an expert on Russia and probably one of the world's leading experts on Russia so to get his name William Lofgren so during the course of of building this business we helped many Western investors with problems and issues related to their investments in Russia so you were working for the West I was waiting for the West so you are the good side and but when you were absolutely and when and when you do work of this kind of course you get to know a lot of people in Russia and you make Russian contacts and like in any other country as as Alexander Solzhenitsyn the great Russian dissident wrote the line that separates good and evil doesn't run between countries it runs through the hearts of people and so in this context there are there are people in Russia who crossed my path and across my professional career who were good people who were working in a constructive way for Russia's freedom and for Russia's independence and that I continue to hold in high regard and you find there's no technical security risk the United States of America with your relationship with c5 and Russia well my my investigative work that related to Russia cases are all in the past this was all done in the past as you said I was acting in the interest of Western corporations and Western governments in their relations with Russia that's documented and you'd be prepared to be transparent about that absolutely that's all those many of those cases are well documented to corporations for which my consulting firm acted are very well known very well known businesses and it's pretty much all on the on the Podesta gaiting corruption we were we were we were helping Western corporations invest into Russia in a way that that that meant that they did not get in meshed in corruption that meant they didn't get blackmailed by Russia organized crime groups which meant that their investments were sustainable and compliant with the Foreign Corrupt Practices Act and other bribery regulation at war for everyone who I know that lives in Europe that's my age said when the EU was established there's a flight of Eastern Europeans and Russians into Western Europe and they don't have the same business practices so I'd imagine you'd run into some pretty seedy scenarios in this course of business well in drug-dealing under I mean a lot of underground stuff was going on they're different they're different government they're different economy I mean it wasn't like a structure so you probably were exposed to a lot many many post-conflict countries suffer from predatory predatory organized crime groups and I think what changed and of course of my invested investigative career was that many of these groups became digital and a lot of organized crime that was purely based in the physical world went into the into the digital world which was one of the other major reasons which led me to focus on cyber security and to invest in cyber security well gets that in a minute well that's great I may only imagine some of the things you're investigated it's easy to connect people with things when yeah things are orbiting around them so appreciate the candid response there I wanna move on to the other area I see in the stories national security risk conflict of interest in some of the stories you seeing this well is there conflict of interest this is an IT playbook I've seen over the years federal deals well you're gonna create some Fahd fear uncertainty and doubt there's always kind of accusations you know there's accusations around well are they self dealing and you know these companies or I've seen this before so I gotta ask you they're involved with you bought a company called s DB advisors it was one of the transactions that they're in I see connecting to in my research with the DoD Sally Donnelly who is Sally Donnelly why did you buy her business so I didn't buy Sonny Donnelly's business again so Sally Tony let's start with Sally darling so Sally Donny was introduced to me by Apple Mike Mullen as a former chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff and Sally served as his special advisor when he was the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff Apple Mullen was one of the first operating parties which we had in c5 and he continues to serve Admiral Mullen the four start yes sir okay and he continues to serve as one of operating partners to this day salad only and that will Mike worked very closely with the Duke of Westminster on one of his charitable projects which we supported and which is close to my heart which is established a new veteran rehabilitation center for Britain upgrading our facility which dates back to the Second World War which is called Headley court to a brand-new state-of-the-art facility which was a half a billion dollar public-private partnership which Duke led and in this context that Ron Mullen and Sally helped the Duke and it's team to meet some of the best experts in the US on veteran rehabilitation on veteran care and on providing for veterans at the end of the service and this was a this was a great service which it did to the to this new center which is called the defense and national rehabilitation center which opened up last summer in Britain and is a terrific asset not only for Britain but also for allies and and so the acquisition she went on to work with secretary Manus in the Department of Defense yes in February Feb 9 you through the transaction yes in February 2017 Sally decided to do public service and support of safety matters when he joined the current administration when she left her firm she sold it free and clear to a group of local Washington entrepreneurs and she had to do that very quickly because the appointment of secretary mattis wasn't expected he wasn't involved in any political campaigns he was called back to come and serve his country in the nation's interest very unexpectedly and Sally and a colleague of us Tony de Martino because of their loyalty to him and the law did to the mission followed him into public service and my understanding is it's an EAJA to sell a business in a matter of a day or two to be able to be free and clear of title and to have no compliance issues while she was in government her consulting business didn't do any work for the government it was really focused on advising corporations on working with the government and on defense and national security issues I didn't buy Sonny's business one of c-5 portfolio companies a year later acquired SPD advisors from the owner supported with a view to establishing and expanding one of our cyber advising businesses into the US market and this is part of a broader bind bolt project which is called Haven ITC secure and this was just one of several acquisitions that this platform made so just for the record c5 didn't buy her company she repeat relieved herself of any kind of conflict of interest going into the public service your portfolio company acquired the company in short order because they knew the synergies because it would be were close to it so I know it's arm's length but as a venture capitalist you have no real influence other than having an investment or board seat on these companies right so they act independent in your structure absolutely make sure I get that's exactly right John but but not much more importantly only had no influence over the Jedi contract she acted as secretary mitosis chief of staff for a period of a year and have functions as described by the Government Accounting Office was really of a ministerial nature so she was much more focused on the Secretary's diary than she was focused on any contracting issues as you know government contracting is very complex it's very technical sally has as many wonderful talents and attributes but she's never claimed to be a cloud computing expert and of equal importance was when sally joined the government in february 17 jeddah wasn't even on the radar it wasn't even conceived as a possibility why did yet I cannot just for just for the record the Jedi contract my understanding is that and I'm not an expert on one government contracting but my understanding is that the RFP the request for proposals for the July contract came out in quarter three of this year for the first time earlier this year there was a publication of an intention to put out an RFP I think that happened in at the end of quarter one five yep classic yeah and then the RFP came out and called a three bits had to go in in November and I understand a decision will be made sometime next year what's your relationship well where's she now what she still was so sunny left finished the public service and and I think February March of this year and she's since gone on to do a fellowship with a think-tank she's also reestablished her own business in her own right and although we remain to be good friends I'm in no way involved in a business or a business deal I have a lot of friends in DC I'm not a really policy wonk of any kind we have a lot of friends who are it's it's common when it administrations turnover people you know or either appointed or parked a work force they leave and they go could they go to consultancy until the next yeah until the next and frustration comes along yeah and that's pretty common that's pretty cool this is what goes on yeah and I think this whole issue of potential conflicts of interest that salad only or Tony the Martino might have had has been addressed by the Government Accounting Office in its ruling which is on the public record where the GAO very clearly state that neither of these two individuals were anywhere near the team that was writing the terms for the general contract and that their functions were really as described by the GAO as ministerial so XI salient Antonia was such a long way away from this contact there's just no way that they could have influenced it in in in any respect and their relation to c5 is advisory do they and do they both are they have relations with you now what's the current relationship since since Sally and Tony went to do public service we've had no contact with them we have no reason of course to have contact with them in any way they were doing public service they were serving the country and serving the nation and since they've come out of public service we've we've not reestablished any commercial relationship so we talked earlier about the relation with AWS there's only if have a field support two incubators its accelerator does c5 have any portfolio companies that are actually bidding or working on the Jedi contract none what Santa John not zero zero so outside of c5 having relation with Amazon and no portfolios working with a Jedi contract there's no link to c5 other than a portfolio company buying Sally Donnelly who's kind of connected to general mattis up here yeah Selleck has six degrees of separation yes I think this is a constant theme in this conspiracy theory Jonas is six degrees of separation it's it's taking relationships that that that developed in a small community in Washington and trying to draw nefarious and sinister conclusions from them instead of focusing on competing on performance competing on innovation and competing on price and perhaps that's not taking place because the companies that are trying to do this do not have the capability to do so Andre I really appreciate you coming on and answering these tough questions I want to talk about what's going on with c5 now but I got to say you know I want to ask you one more time because I think this is critical you've worked for big-time company Kroll with terminus international market very crazy time time transformation wise you've worked with the CIA in Quantico the FBI nuclei in Quantico on a collaboration you were to know you've done work for the good guys you have see if I've got multiple years operating why why are you being put as a bad guy here I mean you're gonna you know being you being put out there with if you search your name on Google it says you're a spy all these evil all these things are connecting and we're kind of digging through them they kind of don't Joan I've had the privilege of a tremendous career I've had the privilege of working with with great leaders and having had great mentors if you do anything of significance if you do anything that's helping to make a difference or to make a change you should first expect scrutiny but also expect criticism when that scrutiny and criticism are fact-based that's helpful and that's good for society and for the health of society when on the other hand it is fake news or it is the construct of elaborate conspiracy theories that's not good for the health of society it's not good for the national interest is not good for for doing good business you've been very after you're doing business for the for the credibility people questioning your credibility what do you want to tell people that are watching this about your credibility that's in question again with this stuff you've done and you're continuing to do what's the one share something to the folks that might mean something to them you can sway them or you want to say something directly what would you say the measure of a person it is his or her conduct in c-five we are continuing to build our business we continue to invest in great companies we continue to put cravat private capital to work to help drive innovation including in the US market we will continue to surround ourselves with good people and we will continue to set the highest standards for the way in which we invest and build our businesses it's common I guess I would say that I'm getting out as deep as you are in the in term over the years with looking at these patterns but the pattern that I see is very simple when bad guys get found out they leave the jurisdiction they flee they go do something else and they reinvent themselves and scam someone else you've been doing this for many many years got a great back record c5 now is still doing business continuing not skipping a beat the story comes out hopefully kind of derail this or something else will think we're gonna dig into it so than angle for sure but you still have investments you're deploying globally talk about what c5 is doing today tomorrow next few months the next year you have deals going down you're still doing business you have business out there our business has not slowed down for a moment we have the support of tremendous investors we have the support of tremendous partners in our portfolio companies we have the support of a great group of operating partners and most important of all we have a highly dedicated highly focused group of investment teams of very experienced and skilled professionals who are making profitable investments and so we are continuing to build our business we have a very full deal pipeline we will be completing more investment transactions next week and we are continue to scalar assets under management next year we will have half a billion dollars of assets under management and we continue to focus on our mission which is to use private capital to help innovate and drive a change for good after again thank you we have the story in the BBC kicked all this off the 12th no one's else picked it up I think other journals have you mentioned earlier you think this there's actually people putting this out you you call out let's got John wheeler we're going to look into him do you think there's an organized campaign right now organized to go after you go after Amazon are you just collateral damage you mentioned that earlier is there a funded effort here well Bloomberg has reported on the fact that that one of the competitors for this bit of trying to bring together a group of companies behind a concerted effort specifically to block Amazon Web Services and so we hear these reports we see this press speculation if that was the case of course that would not be good for a fair and open and competitive bidding process which is I think is the Department of Defense's intention and what is in the interests of the country at a time when national security innovation will determine not only the fate of future Wars but also the fate of a sons and daughters who are war fighters and to be fair to process having something undermine it like a paid-for dossier which I have multiple sources confirming that's happened it's kind of infiltrating the journalists and so that's kind of where I'm looking at right now is that okay the BBC story just didn't feel right to me credible outlet you work for them you did investigations for them back in the day have you talked to them yes no we are we are we are in correspondence with the BBC I think in particular we want them to address the fact that they've conflated facts in this story playing this parlor game of six degrees of separation we want them to address the important principle of the independence of the in editorial integrity at the fact that they did not disclose that they expert on this program actually has significant conflicts of interests of his own and finally we want them to disclose the fact that it's not c5 and Amazon Web Services who have had a relationship with the scope of our technology park the scope of our technology park actually has a very broad set of Western partners still highly engaged there and even in recent weeks of hosted major cloud contracts and conferences there and and all of this should have been part of the story in on the record well we're certainly going to dig into it I appreciate your answer the tough questions we're gonna certainly look into this dossier if this is true this is bad and if there's people behind it acting behind it then certainly we're gonna report on that and I know these were tough questions thanks for taking the time Andre to to answer them with us Joan thanks for doing a deep dive on us okay this is the Q exclusive conversation here in Palo Alto authority narc who's the founder of c-5 capital venture capital firm in the center of a controversy around this BBC story which we're going to dig into more this has been exclusive conversation I'm John Tory thanks for watching [Music] you

[Music] when welcome to the special exclusive cube conversation here in Palo Alto in our studios I'm John for your host of the cube we have a very special guest speaking for the first time around some alleged alleged accusations and also innuendo around the Amazon Web Services Jedi contract and his firm c5 capital our guest as Andre Pienaar who's the founder of c5 capital Andre is here for the first time to talk about some of the hard conversations and questions surrounding his role his firm and the story from the BBC Andre thanks for a rat for meeting with me John great to have me thank you so you're at the center of a controversy and just for the folks who know the cube know we interviewed a lot of people I've interviewed you at Amazon web sources summit Teresa Carl's event and last year I met you and bought a rein the work you're doing there so I've met you a few times so I don't know your background but I want to drill into it because I was surprised to see the BBC story come out last week that was basically accusing you of many things including are you a spy are you infiltrating the US government through the Jedi contract through Amazon and knowing c-5 capital I saw no correlation when reading your article I was kind of disturbed but then I saw I said a follow-on stories it just didn't hang together so I wanted to press you on some questions and thanks for coming in and addressing them appreciate it John thanks for having me so first thing I want to ask you is you know it has you at the center this firm c5 capital that you the founder of at the center of what looks like to be the fight for the big ten billion dollar DoD contract which has been put out to multiple vendors so it's not a single source deal we've covered extensively on silicon angle calm and the cube and the government the government Accounting Office has ruled that there are six main benefits of going with a sole provider cloud this seems to be the war so Oracle IBM and others have been been involved we've been covering that so it kind of smells like something's going along with the story and I just didn't believe some of the things I read and I want to especially about you and see five capitals so I want to dig into what the first thing is it's c5 capital involved in the Jedi contract with AWS Sean not at all we have absolutely no involvement in the Jedi contract in any way we're not a bidder and we haven't done any lobbying as has been alleged by some of the people who've been making this allegation c5 has got no involvement in the general contract we're a venture capital firm with a British venture capital firm we have the privilege of investing here in the US as a foreign investor and our focus really is on the growth and the success of the startups that we are invested in so you have no business interest at all in the deal Department of Defense Jedi contract none whatsoever okay so to take a minute to explain c5 firm I read some of the stories there and some of the things were intricate structures of c5 cap made it sound like there was like a cloak-and-dagger situation I want to ask you some hard questions around that because there's a link to a Russian situation but before we get to there I want to ask you explain what is c5 capital your mission what are the things that you're doing c5 is a is a British venture capital firm and we are focused on investing into fast-growing technology companies in three areas cloud computing cyber security and artificial intelligence we have two parts our business c5 capital which invests into late stage companies so these are companies that typically already have revenue visibility and profitability but still very fast-growing and then we also have a very early stage startup platform that look at seed state investment and this we do through two accelerators to social impact accelerators one in Washington and one in Bahrain and it's just size of money involved just sort of order magnitude how many funds do you have how is it structure again just share some insight on that is it is there one firm is there multiple firms how is it knows it work well today the venture capital business has to be very transparent it's required by compliance we are a regulated regulated firm we are regulated in multiple markets we regulated here in the US the sec as a foreign investor in london by the financial conduct authority and in Luxembourg where Afonso based by the regulatory authorities there so in the venture capital industry today you can't afford to be an opaque business you have to be transparent at all levels and money in the Western world have become almost completely transparent so there's a very comprehensive and thorough due diligence when you onboard capital called know your client and the requirements standard requirement now is that whenever you're onboard capital from investor you're gonna take it right up to the level of the ultimate beneficial ownership so who actually owns this money and then every time you invest and you move your money around it gets diligence together different regulators and in terms of disclosure and the same applies often now with clients when our portfolio companies have important or significant clients they also want to know who's behind the products and the services they receive so often our boards our board directors and a shell team also get diligence by by important clients so explain this piece about the due diligence and the cross country vetting that goes on is I think it's important I want to get it out because how long has been operating how many deals have you done you mentioned foreign investor in the United States you're doing deals in the United States I know I've met one of your portfolio companies at an event iron iron on it iron net general Keith Alexander former head of the NSA you know get to just work with him without being vetted I guess so so how long a c5 capital been in business and where have you made your investments you mentioned cross jurisdiction across countries whatever it's called I don't know that so we've been and we've been in existence for about six years now our main focus is investing in Europe so we help European companies grow globally Europe historically has been underserved by venture capital we on an annual basis we invest about twenty seven billion dollars gets invested in venture capital in Europe as opposed to several multiples of that in the US so we have a very important part to play in Europe to how European enterprise software companies grow globally other important markets for us of course are Israel which is a major center of technology innovation and and the Middle East and then the u.s. the u.s. is still the world leader and venture capital both in terms of size but also in terms of the size of the market and of course the face and the excitement of the innovation here I want to get into me early career because again timing is key we're seeing this with you know whether it's a Supreme Court justice or anyone in their career their past comes back to haunt them it appears that has for you before we get there I want to ask you about you know when you look at the kind of scope of fraud and corruption that I've seen in just on the surface of government thing the government bit Beltway bandits in America is you got a nonprofit that feeds a for-profit and then what you know someone else runs a shell corporation so there's this intricate structures and that word was used which it kind of implies shell corporations a variety of backroom kind of smokey deals going on you mentioned transparency I do you have anything to hide John in in in our business we've got absolutely nothing to hide we have to be transparent we have to be open if you look at our social media profile you'll see we are communicating with the market almost on a daily basis every time we make an investment we press release that our website is very clear about who's involved enough who our partners are and the same applies to my own personal website and so in terms of the money movement around in terms of deploying investments we've seen Silicon Valley VCS move to China get their butts handed to them and then kind of adjust their scenes China money move around when you move money around you mentioned disclosure what do you mean there's filings to explain that piece it's just a little bit so every time we make an investment into a into a new portfolio company and we move the money to that market to make the investment we have to disclose who all the investors are who are involved in that investment so we have to disclose the ultimate beneficial ownership of all our limited partners to the law firms that are involved in the transactions and those law firms in turn have applications in terms of they own anti-money laundering laws in the local markets and this happens every time you move money around so I I think that the level of transparency in venture capital is just continue to rise exponentially and it's virtually impossible to conceal the identity of an investor this interesting this BBC article has a theme of national security risk kind of gloom and doom nuclear codes as mentioned it's like you want to scare someone you throw nuclear codes at it you want to get people's attention you play the Russian card I saw an article on the web that that said you know anything these days the me2 movement for governments just play the Russian card and you know instantly can discredit someone's kind of a desperation act so you got confident of interest in the government national security risk seems to be kind of a theme but before we get into the BBC news I noticed that there was a lot of conflated pieces kind of pulling together you know on one hand you know you're c5 you've done some things with your hat your past and then they just make basically associate that with running amazon's jedi project yes which i know is not to be true and you clarified that joan ends a problem joan so as a venture capital firm focused on investing in the space we have to work with all the Tier one cloud providers we are great believers in commercial cloud public cloud we believe that this is absolutely transformative not only for innovation but also for the way in which we do venture capital investment so we work with Amazon Web Services we work with Microsoft who work with Google and we believe that firstly that cloud has been made in America the first 15 companies in the world are all in cloud companies are all American and we believe that cloud like the internet and GPS are two great boons which the US economy the u.s. innovation economy have provided to the rest of the world cloud computing is reducing the cost of computing power with 50 percent every three years opening up innovation and opportunities for Entrepreneurship for health and well-being for the growth of economies on an unprecedented scale cloud computing is as important to the global economy today as the dollar ease as the world's reserve currency so we are great believers in cloud we great believers in American cloud computing companies as far as Amazon is concerned our relationship with Amazon Amazon is very Amazon Web Services is very clear and it's very defined we participate in a public Marcus program called AWS activate through which AWS supports hundreds of accelerators around the world with know-how with mentoring with teaching and with cloud credits to help entrepreneurs and startups grow their businesses and we have a very exciting focus for our two accelerators which is on in Washington we focus on peace technology we focus on taking entrepreneurs from conflict countries like Sudan Nigeria Pakistan to come to Washington to work on campus in the US government building the u.s. Institute for peace to scale these startups to learn all about cloud computing to learn how they can grow their businesses with cloud computing and to go back to their own countries to build peace and stability and prosperity their heaven so we're very proud of this mission in the Middle East and Bahrain our focus is on on female founders and female entrepreneurs we've got a program called nebula through which we empower female founders and female entrepreneurs interesting in the Middle East the statistics are the reverse from what we have in the West the majority of IT graduates in the Middle East are fimo and so there's a tremendous talent pool of of young dynamic female entrepreneurs coming out of not only the Gulf but the whole of the MENA region how about a relation with Amazon websites outside of their normal incubators they have incubators all over the place in the Amazon put out as Amazon Web Services put out a statement that said hey you know we have a lot of relationships with incubators this is normal course of business I know here in Silicon Valley at the startup loft this is this is their market filled market playbook so you fit into that is that correct as I'm I get that that's that's absolutely correct what we what is unusual about a table insists that this is a huge company that's focused on tiny startups a table started with startups it double uses first clients with startups and so here you have a huge business that has a deep understanding of startups and focus on startups and that's enormous the attractor for us and terrific for our accelerators department with them have you at c5 Capitol or individually have any formal or conversation with Amazon employees where you've had outside of giving feedback on products where you've tried to make change on their technology make change with their product management teams engineering you ever had at c5 capital whore have you personally been involved in influencing Amazon's product roadmap outside they're just giving normal feedback in the course of business that's way above my pay grade John firstly we don't have that kind of technical expertise in C 5 C 5 steam consists of a combination of entrepreneurs like myself people understand money really well and leaders we don't have that level of technical expertise and secondly that's what one our relationship with AWS is all about our relationship is entirely limited to the two startups and making sure that the two accelerators in making sure that the startups who pass through those accelerators succeed and make social impact and as a partner network component Amazon it's all put out there yes so in in a Barren accelerator we've we formed part of the Amazon partner network and the reason why we we did that was because we wanted to give some of the young people who come through the accelerator and know mastering cloud skills an opportunity to work on some real projects and real live projects so some of our young golf entrepreneurs female entrepreneurs have been working on building websites on Amazon Cloud and c5 capital has a relationship with former government officials you funded startups and cybersecurity that's kind of normal can you explain that positioning of it of how former government if it's whether it's US and abroad are involved in entrepreneurial activities and why that is may or may not be a problem certainly is a lot of kind of I would say smoke around this conversation around coffin of interest and you can you explain intelligence what that was it so I think the model for venture capital has been evolving and increasingly you get more and more differentiated models one of the key areas in which the venture capital model is changed is the fact that operating partners have become much more important to the success of venture capital firms so operating partners are people who bring real world experience to the investment experience of the investment team and in c-five we have the privilege of having a terrific group of operating partners people with both government and commercial backgrounds and they work very actively enough firm at all levels from our decision-making to the training and the mentoring of our team to helping us understand the way in which the world is exchanging to risk management to helping uh portfolio companies grow and Silicon Valley true with that to injuries in Horowitz two founders mr. friendly they bring in operating people that have entrepreneurial skills this is the new model understand order which has been a great source of inspiration to us for our model and and we built really believe this is a new model and it's really critical for the success of venture capitals to be going forward and the global impact is pretty significant one of things you mentioned I want to get your take on is as you operate a global transaction a lots happened a lot has to happen I mean we look at the ICO market on the cryptocurrency side its kind of you know plummeting obsoletes it's over now the mood security children's regulatory and transparency becomes critical you feel fully confident that you haven't you know from a regulatory standpoint c5 capital everything's out there absolutely risk management and regulated compliance and legal as the workstream have become absolutely critical for the success of venture capital firms and one of the reasons why this becomes so important John is because the venture capital world over the last few years have changed dramatically historically all the people involved in venture capital had very familiar names and came from very familiar places over the last few years with a diversification of global economic growth we've seen it's very significant amounts of money being invest invested in startups in China some people more money will invest in startups this year in China than in the US and we've seen countries like Saudi Arabia becoming a major source of venture capital funding some people say that as much as 70% of funding rounds this year in some way or another originated from the Gulf and we've seen places like Russia beginning to take an interest in technology innovation so the venture capital world is changing and for that reason compliance and regulation have become much more important but if Russians put 200 million dollars in face book and write out the check companies bright before that when the after 2008 we saw the rise of social networking I think global money certainly has something that I think a lot of people start getting used to and I want on trill down into that a little bit we talked about this BBC story that that hit and the the follow-on stories which actually didn't get picked up was mostly doing more regurgitation of the same story but one of the things that that they focus in on and the story was you and the trend now is your past is your enemy these days you know they try to drum up stuff in the past you've had a long career some of the stuff that they've been bringing in to paint you and the light that they did was from your past so I wanted to explore that with you I know you this is the first time you've talked about this and I appreciate you taking the time talk about your early career your background where you went to school because the way I'm reading this it sounds like you're a shady character I like like I interviewed on the queue but I didn't see that but you know I'm going to pressure here for that if you don't mind I'd like to to dig into that John thank you for that so I've had the I've had the privilege of a really amazingly interesting life and at the heart of at the heart of that great adventures been people and the privilege to work with really great people and good people I was born in South Africa I grew up in Africa went to school there qualified as a lawyer and then came to study in Britain when I studied international politics when I finished my studies international politics I got head hunted by a US consulting firm called crow which was a start of a 20 years career as an investigator first in crawl where I was a managing director in the London and then in building my own consulting firm which was called g3 and all of this led me to cybersecurity because as an investigator looking into organized crime looking into corruption looking into asset racing increasingly as the years went on everything became digital and I became very interested in finding evidence on electronic devices but starting my career and CRO was tremendous because Jules Kroll was a incredible mentor he could walk through an office and call everybody by their first name any Kroll office anywhere in the world and he always took a kindly interest in the people who work for him so it was a great school to go to and and I worked on some terrific cases including some very interesting Russian cases and Russian organized crime cases just this bag of Kroll was I've had a core competency in doing investigative work and also due diligence was that kind of focus yes although Kroll was the first company in the world to really have a strong digital practice led by Alan Brugler of New York Alan established the first computer forensics practice which was all focused about finding evidence on devices and everything I know about cyber security today started with me going to school with Alan Brolin crawl and they also focused on corruption uncovering this is from Wikipedia Kroll clients help Kroll helps clients improve operations by uncovering kickbacks fraud another form of corruptions other specialty areas is forensic accounting background screening drug testing electronic investigation data recovery SATA result Omar's McLennan in 2004 for 1.9 billion mark divested Kroll to another company I'll take credit risk management to diligence investigator in Falls Church Virginia over 150 countries call Kroll was the first CRO was the first household brand name in this field of of investigations and today's still is probably one of the strongest brand names and so it was a great firm to work in and was a great privilege to be part of it yeah high-end high-profile deals were there how many employees were in Kroll cuz I'd imagine that the alumni that that came out of Kroll probably have found places in other jobs similar to yes do an investigative work like you know they out them all over the world many many alumni from Kroll and many of them doing really well and doing great work ok great so now the next question want to ask you is when you in Kroll the South Africa connection came up so I got to ask you it says business side that you're a former South African spy are you a former South African spy no John I've never worked for any government agency and in developing my career my my whole focus has been on investigations out of the Kroll London office I did have the opportunity to work in South Africa out of the Kroll London office and this was really a seminal moment in my career when I went to South Africa on a case for a major international credit-card company immediately after the end of apartheid when democracy started to look into the scale and extent of credit card fraud at the request of this guy what year was there - how old were you this was in 1995 1996 I was 25 26 years old and one of the things which this credit card company asked me to do was to assess what was the capability of the new democratic government in South Africa under Nelson Mandela to deal with crime and so I had the privilege of meeting mr. Mandela as the president to discuss this issue with him and it was an extraordinary man the country's history because there was such an openness and a willingness to to address issues of this nature and to grapple with them so he was released from prison at that time I remember those days and he became president that's why he called you and you met with him face to face of a business conversation around working on what the future democracy is and trying to look at from a corruption standpoint or just kind of in general was that what was that conversation can you share so so that so the meeting involved President Mandela and and the relevant cabinet ministers the relevant secretaries and his cabinet - responsible for for these issues and the focus of our conversation really started with well how do you deal with credit card fraud and how do you deal with large-scale fraud that could be driven by organized crime and at the time this was an issue of great concern to the president because there was bombing in Kate of a Planet Hollywood cafe where a number of people got very severely injured and the president believed that this could have been the result of a protection racket in Cape Town and so he wanted to do something about it he was incredibly proactive and forward-leaning and in an extraordinary way he ended the conversation by by asking where the Kroll can help him and so he commissioned Kroll to build the capacity of all the black officers that came out of the ANC and have gone into key government positions on how to manage organized crime investigations it was the challenge at that time honestly I can imagine apartheid I remember you know I was just at a college that's not properly around the same age as you it was a dynamic time to say the least was his issue around lack of training old school techniques because you know that was right down post-cold-war and then did what were the concerns not enough people was it just out of control was it a corrupt I mean just I mean what was the core issue that Nelson wanted to hire Kroll and you could work his core issue was he wanted to ensure the stability of South Africa's democracy that was his core focus and he wanted to make South Africa an attractive place where international companies felt comfortable and confident in investing and that was his focus and he felt that at that time because so many of the key people in the ANC only had training in a cold war context that there wasn't a Nessy skill set to do complex financial or more modern investigations and it was very much focused he was always the innovator he was very much focused on bringing the best practices and the best investigative techniques to the country he was I felt in such a hurry that he doesn't want to do this by going to other governments and asking for the help he wanted to Commission it himself and so he gave he gave a crawl with me as the project leader a contract to do this and my namesake Francois Pienaar has become very well known because of the film Invictus and he's been he had the benefit of Mandela as a mentor and as a supporter and that changed his career the same thing happened to me so what did he actually asked you to do was it to train build a force because there's this talk that and was a despite corruption specifically it was it more both corruption and or stability because they kind of go hand in hand policy and it's a very close link between corruption and instability and and president Ellis instructions were very clear to Crowley said go out and find me the best people in the world the most experienced people in the world who can come to South Africa and train my people how to fight organized crime so I went out and I found some of the best people from the CIA from mi6 the British intelligence service from the Drug Enforcement Agency here in the US form officers from the Federal Bureau of Investigation's detectives from Scotland Yard prosecutors from the US Justice Department and all of them for a number of years traveled to South Africa to train black officers who were newly appointed in key roles in how to combat organized crime and this was you acting as an employee he had crow there's not some operative this is he this was me very much acting as a as an executive and crow I was the project leader Kroll was very well structured and organized and I reported to the chief executive officer in the London office nor Garret who was the former head of the CIA's Near East Division and Nelson Mandela was intimately involved in this with you at Krall President Mandela was the ultimate support of this project and he then designated several ministers to work on it and also senior officials in the stories that had been put out this past week they talked about this to try to make it sound like you're involved on two sides of the equation they bring up scorpions was this the scorpions project that they referred to so it was the scorpions scorpion sounds so dangerous and a movie well there's a movie a movie does feature this so at the end of the training project President Mandela and deputy president Thabo Mbeki who subsequently succeeded him as president put together a ministerial committee to look at what should they do with the capacity that's been built with this investment that they made because for a period of about three years we had all the leading people the most experienced people that have come out of some of the best law enforcement agencies and some of the best intelligence services come and trained in South Africa and this was quite this was quite something John because many of the senior officers in the ANC came from a background where they were trained by the opponents of the people came to treat trained them so so many of them were trained by the Stasi in East Germany some of them were trained by the Russian KGB some of them were trained by the Cubans so we not only had to train them we also had to win their trust and when we started this that's a diverse set of potential dogma and or just habits a theory modernised if you will right is that what the there was there was a question of of learning new skills and there was a question about also about learning management capabilities there was also question of learning the importance of the media for when you do difficult and complex investigations there was a question about using digital resources but there was also fundamentally a question of just building trust and when we started this program none of the black officers wanted to be photographed with all these foreign trainers who were senior foreign intelligence officers when we finished that everyone wanted to be in the photograph and so this was a great South African success story but the President and the deputy president then reflected on what to do with his capacity and they appointed the ministerial task force to do this and we were asked to make recommendations to this Minister ministerial task force and one of the things which we did was we showed them a movie because you referenced the movie and the movie we showed them was the untouchables with Kevin Costner and Sean Connery which is still one of my favorite and and greatest movies and the story The Untouchables is about police corruption in Chicago and how in the Treasury Department a man called Eliot Ness put together a group of officers from which he selected from different places with clean hands to go after corruption during the Probie and this really captured the president's imagination and so he said that's what he want and Ella yeah okay so he said della one of the untouchables he wanted Eliot Ness exactly Al Capone's out there and and how many people were in that goodness so we asked that we we established the government then established decided to establish and this was passed as a law through Parliament the director of special operations the DSO which colloquy became known as the scorpions and it had a scorpion as a symbol for this unit and this became a standalone anti-corruption unit and the brilliant thing about it John was that the first intake of scorpion officers were all young black graduates many of them law graduates and at the time Janet Reno was the US Attorney General played a very crucial role she allowed half of the first intake of young cratchits to go to Quantico and to do the full FBI course in Quantico and this was the first group of foreign students who've ever been admitted to Quantico to do the full Quantico were you involved at what score's at that time yes sir and so you worked with President Mandela yes the set of the scorpions is untouchable skiing for the first time as a new democracy is emerging the landscape is certainly changing there's a transformation happening we all know the history laugh you don't watch Invictus probably great movie to do that you then worked with the Attorney General United States to cross-pollinate the folks in South Africa black officers law degrees Samar's fresh yes this unit with Quantico yes in the United States I had the privilege of attending the the graduation ceremony of the first of South African officers that completed the Quantico course and representing crow they on the day you had us relationships at that time to crawl across pollen I had the privilege of working with some of the best law enforcement officers and best intelligence officers that has come out of the u.s. services and they've been tremendous mentors in my career they've really shaped my thinking they've shaped my values and they've they've shaved my character so you're still under 30 at this time so give us a is that where this where are we in time now just about a 30 so you know around the nine late nineties still 90s yeah so client-server technologies there okay so also the story references Leonard McCarthy and these spy tapes what is this spy tape saga about it says you had a conversation with McCarthy me I'm thinking that a phone tap explain that spy tape saga what does it mean who's Lennon McCarthy explain yourself so so so Leonard McCarthy it's a US citizen today he served two terms as the vice president for institutional integrity at the World Bank which is the world's most important anti-corruption official he started his career as a prosecutor in South Africa many years ago and then became the head of the economic crimes division in the South African Justice Department and eventually became the head of the scorpions and many years after I've left Kroll and were no longer involved in in the work of the scorpions he texted me one evening expressing a concern and an anxiety that I had about the safety of his family and I replied to him with two text messages one was a Bible verse and the other one was a Latin saying and my advice name was follow the rule of law and put the safety of your family first and that was the advice I gave him so this is how I imagined the year I think of it the internet was just there this was him this was roundabout 2000 December 2007 okay so there was I phone just hit so text messaging Nokia phones all those big yeah probably more text message there so you sitting anywhere in London you get a text message from your friend yep later this past late tonight asking for help and advice and I gave him the best advice I can he unfortunately was being wiretapped and those wiretaps were subsequently published and became the subject of much controversy they've now been scrutinized by South Africa's highest court and the court has decided that those wiretaps are of no impact and of importance in the scheme of judicial decision-making and our unknown provenance and on and on unknown reliability they threw it out basically yeah they're basically that's the president he had some scandals priors and corruption but back to the tapes you the only involvement on the spy tapes was friend sending you a text message that says hey I'm running a corruption you know I'm afraid for my life my family what do I do and you give some advice general advice and that's it as there was there any more interactions with us no that's it that's it okay so you weren't like yeah working with it hey here's what we get strategy there was nothing that going on no other interactions just a friendly advice and that's what they put you I gave him my I gave him my best advice when you when you work in when you work as an investigator very much as and it's very similar in venture capital it's all about relationships and you want to preserve relationships for the long term and you develop deep royalties to its people particularly people with whom you've been through difficult situations as I have been with Leonard much earlier on when I was still involved in Kroll and giving advice to South African government on issues related to the scorpius so that that has a lot of holes and I did think that was kind of weird they actually can produce the actual tax I couldn't find that the spy tapes so there's a spy tape scandal out there your name is on out on one little transaction globbed on to you I mean how do you feel about that I mean you must've been pretty pissed when you saw that when you do it when when you do when you do investigative work you see really see everything and all kinds of things and the bigger the issues that you deal with the more frequently you see things that other people might find unusual I are you doing any work right now with c5 at South Africa and none whatsoever so I've I retired from my investigative Korea in 2014 I did terrific 20 years as an investigator during my time as investigator I came to understood the importance of digital and cyber and so at the end of it I saw an opportunity to serve a sector that historically have been underserved with capital which is cyber security and of course there are two areas very closely related to cyber security artificial intelligence and cloud and that's why I created c5 after I sold my investigator firm with five other families who equally believed in the importance of investing private capital to make a difference invest in private capital to help bring about innovation that can bring stability to the digital world and that's the mission of c-5 before I get to the heart news I want to drill in on the BBC stories I think that's really the focal point of you know why we're talking just you know from my standpoint I remember living as a young person in that time breaking into the business you know my 20s and 30s you had Live Aid in 1985 and you had 1995 the internet happened there was so much going on between those that decade 85 to 95 you were there I was an American so I didn't really have a lot exposure I did some work for IBM and Europe in 1980 says it's co-op student but you know I had some peak in the international world it must been pretty dynamic the cross-pollination the melting pot of countries you know the Berlin Wall goes down you had the cold war's ending you had apartheid a lot of things were going on around you yes so in that dynamic because if if the standard is you had links to someone you know talked about why how important it was that this melting pot and how it affected your relationships and how it looks now looking back because now you can almost tie anything to anything yes so I think the 90s was one of the most exciting periods of time because you had the birth of the internet and I started working on Internet related issues yet 20 million users today we have three and a half billion users and ten billion devices unthinkable at the time but in the wake of the internet also came a lot of changes as you say the Berlin Wall came down democracy in South Africa the Oslo peace process in the time that I worked in Kroll some of them made most important and damaging civil wars in Africa came to an end including the great war in the Congo peace came to Sudan and Angola the Ivory Coast so a lot of things happening and if you have a if you had a an international career at that time when globalization was accelerating you got to no a lot of people in different markets and both in crow and in my consulting business a key part of what it but we did was to keep us and Western corporations that were investing in emerging markets safe your credibility has been called in questions with this article and when I get to in a second what I want to ask you straight up is it possible to survive in the international theatre to the level that you're surviving if what they say is true if you if you're out scamming people or you're a bad actor pretty much over the the time as things get more transparent it's hard to survive right I mean talk about that dynamic because I just find it hard to believe that to be successful the way you are it's not a johnny-come-lately firms been multiple years operating vetted by the US government are people getting away in the shadows is it is is it hard because I almost imagine those are a lot of arbitrage I imagine ton of arbitrage that you that are happening there how hard or how easy it is to survive to be that shady and corrupt in this new era because with with with investigated with with intelligence communities with some terrific if you follow the money now Bitcoin that's a whole nother story but that's more today but to survive the eighties and nineties and to be where you are and what they're alleging I just what's your thoughts well to be able to attract capital and investors you have to have very high standards of governance and compliance because ultimately that's what investors are looking for and what investors will diligence when they make an investment with you so to carry the confidence of investors good standards of governance and compliance are of critical importance and raising venture capital and Europe is tough it's not like the US babe there's an abundance of venture capital available it's very hard Europe is under served by capital the venture capital invested in the US market is multiple of what we invest in Europe so you need to be even more focused on governance and compliance in Europe than you would be perhaps on other markets I think the second important point with Gmail John is that technology is brought about a lot of transparency and this is a major area of focus for our piece tech accelerator where we have startups who help to bring transparency to markets which previously did not have transparency for example one of the startups that came through our accelerator has brought complete transparency to the supply chain for subsistence farmers in Africa all the way to to the to the shelf of Walmart or a big grocery retailer in in the US or Europe and so I think technology is bringing a lot more more transparency we also have a global anti-corruption Innovation Challenge called shield in the cloud where we try and find and recognize the most innovative corporations governments and countries in the space so let's talk about the BBC story that hit 12 it says is a US military cloud the DoD Jedi contractor that's coming to award the eleventh hour safe from Russia fears over sensitive data so if this essentially the headline that's bolded says a technology company bidding for a Pentagon contract that's Amazon Web Services to store sensitive data has close partnerships with a firm linked to a sanctioned Russian oligarch the BBC has learned goes on to essentially put fear and tries to hang a story that says the national security of America is at risk because of c5u that's what we're talking about right now so so what's your take on this story I mean did you wake up and get an email said hey check out the BBC you're featured in and they're alleging that you have links to Russia and Amazon what Jon first I have to go I first have to do a disclosure I've worked for the BBC as an investigator when I was in Kroll and in fact I let the litigation support for the BBC in the biggest libel claim in British history which was post 9/11 when the BBC did a broadcast mistakenly accusing a mining company in Africa of laundering money for al-qaeda and so I represented the BBC in this case I was the manager hired you they hired me to delete this case for them and I'm I helped the BBC to reduce a libel claim of 25 million dollars to $750,000 so I'm very familiar with the BBC its integrity its standards and how it does things and I've always held the BBC in the highest regard and believed that the BBC makes a very important contribution to make people better informed about the world so when I heard about the story I was very disappointed because it seemed to me that the BBC have compromised the independence and the independence of the editorial control in broadcasting the story the reason why I say that is because the principal commentator in this story as a gentleman called John Wheeler who's familiar to me as a someone who's been trolling our firm on internet for the last year making all sorts of allegations the BBC did not disclose that mr. Weiler is a former Oracle executive the company that's protesting the Jedi bidding contract and secondly that he runs a lobbying firm with paid clients and that he himself often bid for government contracts in the US government context you're saying that John Wheeler who's sourced in the story has a quote expert and I did check him out I did look at what he was doing I checked out his Twitter he seems to be trying to socialise a story heavily first he needed eyes on LinkedIn he seems to be a consultant firm like a Beltway yes he runs a he runs a phone called in interoperability Clearing House and a related firm called the IT acquisition Advisory Council and these two organizations work very closely together the interoperability Clearing House or IC H is a consulting business where mr. Weiler acts for paying clients including competitors for this bidding contract and none of this was disclosed by the BBC in their program the second part of this program that I found very disappointing was the fact that the BBC in focusing on the Russian technology parks cocuwa did not disclose the list of skok of our partners that are a matter of public record on the Internet if you look at this list very closely you'll see c5 is not on there neither Amazon Web Services but the list of companies that are on there are very familiar names many of them competitors in this bidding process who acted as founding partners of skok about Oracle for example as recently as the 28th of November hosted what was described as the largest cloud computing conference in Russia's history at Skolkovo this is the this is the place which the BBC described as this notorious den of spies and at this event which Oracle hosted they had the Russian presidential administration on a big screen as one of their clients in Russia so some Oracle is doing business in Russia they have like legit real links to Russia well things you're saying if they suddenly have very close links with Skolkovo and so having a great many other Khayyam is there IBM Accenture cisco say Microsoft is saying Oracle is there so Skolkovo has a has a very distinguished roster of partners and if the BBC was fair and even-handed they would have disclosed us and they would have disclosed the fact that neither c5 nor Amazon feature as Corcovado you feel that the BBC has been duped the BBC clearly has been duped the program that they broadcasted is really a parlor game of six degrees of separation which they try to spun into a national security crisis all right so let's tell us John while ago you're saying John Wyler who's quoted in the story as an expert and by the way I read in the story my favorite line that I wanted to ask you on was there seems to be questions being raised but the question is being raised or referring to him so are you saying that he is not an expert but a plant for the story what's what's his role he's saying he works for Oracle or you think do you think he's being paid by Oracle like I can't comment on mr. Wireless motivation what strikes me is the fact that is a former Oracle executive what's striking is that he clearly on his website for the IC H identifies several competitors for the Jedi business clients and that all of this should have been disclosed by the BBC rather than to try and characterize and portray him as an independent expert on this story well AWS put out a press release or a blog post essentially hum this you know you guys had won it we're very clear and this I know it goes to the top because that's how Amazon works nothing goes out until it goes to the top which is Andy chassis and the senior people over there it says here's the relationship with c5 and ATS what school you use are the same page there but also they hinted the old guard manipulation distant I don't think they use the word disinformation campaign they kind of insinuate it and that's what I'm looking into I want to ask you are you part are you a victim of a disinformation campaign do you believe that you're not a victim being targeted with c5 as part of a disinformation campaign put on by a competitor to AWS I think what we've seen over the course of this last here is an enormous amount of disinformation around this contract and around this bidding process and they've a lot of the information that has been disseminated has not only not been factual but in some cases have been patently malicious well I have been covering Amazon for many many years this guy Tom Wyler is in seems to be circulating multiple reports invested in preparing for this interview I checked Vanity Fair he's quoted in Vanity Fair he's quoted in the BBC story and there's no real or original reporting other than those two there's some business side our article which is just regurgitating the Business Insider I mean the BBC story and a few other kind of blog stories but no real original yes no content don't so in every story that that's been written on this subject and as you say most serious publication have thrown this thrown these allegations out but in the in those few instances where they've managed to to publish these allegations and to leverage other people's credibility to their advantage and leverage other people's credibility for their competitive advantage John Wheeler has been the most important and prominent source of the allegations someone who clearly has vested commercial interests someone who clearly works for competitors as disclosed on his own website and none of this has ever been surfaced or addressed I have multiple sources have confirmed to me that there's a dossier that has been created and paid for by a firm or collection of firms to discredit AWS I've seen some of the summary documents of that and that is being peddled around to journalists we have not been approached yet I'm not sure they will because we actually know the cloud what cloud computing is so I'm sure we could debunk it by just looking at it and what they were putting fors was interesting is this an eleventh-hour a desperation attempt because I have the Geo a report here that was issued under Oracle's change it says there are six conditions why we're looking at one sole cloud although it's not a it's a multiple bid it's not an exclusive to amazon but so there's reasons why and they list six service levels highly specialized check more favorable terms and conditions with a single award expected cause of administration of multiple contracts outweighs the benefits of multiple awards the projected orders are so intricately related that only a single contractor can reasonably be perform the work meaning that Amazon has the only cloud that can do that work now I've reported on the cube and it's looking angle that it's true there's things that other clouds just don't have anyone has private they have the secret the secret clouds the total estimated value of the contract is less than the simplified acquisition threshold or multiple awards would not be in the best interest this is from them this is a government report so it seems like there's a conspiracy against Amazon where you are upon and in in this game collect you feel that collateral damage song do you do you believe that to be true collateral damage okay well okay so now the the John Wheeler guys so investigate you've been an investigator so you mean you're not you know you're not a retired into this a retired investigator you're retired investigated worked on things with Nelson Mandela Kroll Janet Reno Attorney General you've vetted by the United States government you have credibility you have relationships with people who have have top-secret clearance all kinds of stuff but I mean do you have where people have top-secret clearance or or former people who had done well we have we have the privilege of of working with a very distinguished group of senior national security leaders as operating partisan c5 and many of them have retained their clearances and have been only been able to do so because c5 had to pass through a very deep vetting process so for you to be smeared like this you've been in an investigative has you work at a lot of people this is pretty obvious to you this is like a oh is it like a deep state conspiracy you feel it's one vendor - what is your take and what does collateral damage mean to you well I recently spoke at the mahkum conference on a session on digital warfare and one of the key points I made there was that there are two things that are absolutely critical for business leaders and technology leaders at this point in time one we have to clearly say that our countries are worth defending we can't walk away from our countries because the innovation that we are able to build and scale we're only able to do because we live in democracies and then free societies that are governed by the rule of law the second thing that I think is absolutely crucial for business leaders in the technology community is to accept that there must be a point where national interest overrides competition it must be a point where we say the benefit and the growth and the success of our country is more important to us than making commercial profits and therefore there's a reason for us either to cooperate or to cease competition or to compete in a different way what might takes a little bit more simple than that's a good explanation is I find these smear campaigns and fake news and I was just talking with Kara Swisher on Twitter just pinging back and forth you know either journalists are chasing Twitter and not really doing the original courting or they're being fed stories if this is truly a smear campaign as being fed by a paid dossier then that hurts people when families and that puts corporate interests over the right thing so I think I a personal issue with that that's fake news that's just disinformation but it's also putting corporate inches over over families and people so I just find that to be kind of really weird when you say collateral damage earlier what did you mean by that just part of the campaign you personally what's what's your view okay I think competition which is not focused on on performance and on innovation and on price points that's competition that's hugely destructive its destructive to the fabric of innovation its destructive of course to the reputation of the people who fall in the line of sight of this kind of competition but it's also hugely destructive to national interest Andrae one of the key stories here with the BBC which has holes in it is that the Amazon link which we just talked about but there's one that they bring up that seems to be core in all this and just the connections to Russia can you talk about your career over the career from whether you when you were younger to now your relationship with Russia why is this Russian angle seems to be why they bring into the Russia angle into it they seem to say that c-5 Cable has connections they call deep links personal links into Russia so to see what that so c5 is a venture capital firm have no links to Russia c5 has had one individual who is originally of Russian origin but it's been a longtime Swiss resident and you national as a co investor into a enterprise software company we invested in in 2015 in Europe we've since sold that company but this individual Vladimir Kuznetsov who's became the focus of the BBC's story was a co investor with us and the way in which we structure our investment structures is that everything is transparent so the investment vehicle for this investment was a London registered company which was on the records of Companies House not an offshore entity and when Vladimir came into this company as a co investor for compliance and regulatory purposes we asked him to make his investment through this vehicle which we controlled and which was subject to our compliance standards and completely transparent and in this way he made this investment now when we take on both investors and Co investors we do that subject to very extensive due diligence and we have a very robust and rigorous due diligence regime which in which our operating partners who are leaders of great experience play an important role in which we use outside due diligence firms to augment our own judgment and to make sure we have all the facts and finally we also compare notes with other financial institutions and peers and having done that with Vladimir Kuznetsov when he made this one investment with us we reached the conclusion that he was acting in his own right as an independent angel investor that his left renova many years ago as a career executive and that he was completely acceptable as an investor so that you think that the BBC is making an inaccurate Association the way they describe your relationship with Russia absolutely the the whole this whole issue of the provenance of capital has become of growing importance to the venture capital industry as you and I discussed earlier with many more different sources of capital coming out of places like China like Russia Saudi Arabia other parts of the world and therefore going back again to you the earlier point we discussed compliance and due diligence our critical success factors and we have every confidence in due diligence conclusions that we reached about vladimir quits net source co-investment with us in 2015 so I did some digging on c5 razor bidco this was the the portion of the company in reference to the article I need to get your your take on this and they want to get you on the record on this because it's you mentioned I've been a law above board with all the compliance no offshore entities this is a personal investment that he made Co investment into an entity you guys set up for the transparency and compliance is that true that's correct no side didn't see didn't discover this would my my children could have found this this this company was in a transparent way on the records in Companies House and and Vladimir's role and investment in it was completely on the on the public record all of this was subject to financial conduct authority regulation and anti money laundering and no your client standards and compliance so there was no great big discovery this was all transparent all out in the open and we felt very confident in our due diligence findings and so you feel very confident Oh issue there at all special purpose none whatsoever is it this is classic this is international finance yes sir so in the venture capital industry creating a special purpose vehicle for a particular investment is a standard practice in c-five we focus on structuring those special-purpose vehicles in the most transparent way possible and that was his money from probably from Russia and you co invested into this for this purpose of doing these kinds of deals with Russia well we just right this is kind of the purpose of that no no no this so in 2015 we invested into a European enterprise software company that's a strategic partner of Microsoft in Scandinavian country and we invested in amount of 16 million pounds about at the time just more than 20 million dollars and subsequent in August of that year that Amir Kuznetsov having retired for nova and some time ago in his own right as an angel investor came in as a minority invest alongside us into this investment but we wanted to be sure that his investment was on our control and subject to our compliance standards so we requested him to make his investment through our special purpose vehicle c5 raised a bit co this investment has since been realized it's been a great success and this business is going on to do great things and serve great clients it c5 taking russian money no see if I was not taking Russian money since since the onset of sanctions onboarding Russian money is just impossible sanctions have introduced complexity and have introduced regulatory risk related to Russian capital and so we've taken a decision that we will not and we can't onboard Russian capital and sanctions have also impacted my investigative career sanctions have also completely changed because what the US have done very effectively is to make sanctions a truly global regime and in which ever country are based it doesn't really matter you have to comply with US sanctions this is not optional for anybody on any sanctions regime including the most recent sanctions on Iran so if there are sanctions in place you can't touch it have you ever managed Russian oligarchs money or interests at any time I've never managed a Russian oligarchs money at any point in time I served for a period of a year honest on the board of a South African mining company in which Renova is a minority invest alongside an Australian company called South 32 and the reason why I did this was because of my support for African entrepreneurship this was one of the first black owned mining companies in South Africa that was established with a British investment in 2004 this business have just grown to be a tremendous success and so for a period of a year I offered to help them on the board and to support them as they as they looked at how they can grow and scale the business I have a couple more questions Gabe so I don't know if you wanna take a break you want to keep let's take a break okay let's take a quick break do a quick break I think that's great that's the meat of it great job by the way fantastic lady here thanks for answering those questions the next section I want to do is compliment

>> Live from Bahrain, it's theCUBE. Covering AWS Summit Bahrain. Brought to you by Amazon Web Services. >> Hey, welcome back everyone, we're here live in Bahrain in the Middle East. This is theCUBE's exclusive coverage, here for the first time, covering Amazon Web Services, AWS' Public Sector, and the breaking news around their new region that they announced a while ago, going to be deployed here in the early 2019 time frame. An Amazon region really is the power source of digital. It has a track record of creating so much value and innovation. And I'm here with Teresa Carlson, who's the head-- she's the chief of public sectors, she's the head of Amazon Web Services' Public Sector globally, except for China but that's a different territory. Teresa Carlson, it's great to see you. >> It's so great to have you here with us, oh my goodness. >> So I got to say, you told me a few years ago we're going to really go international, we're doubling down outside North America, we're going to have regions, Andy Jassy, the CEO of AWS, said the same. This is the strategy of Amazon. But the Middle East was your baby. This was something that you did spend a lot of time on, and a lot of decisions. Everyone wants to know why Bahrain? Why did you choose this region? And what do you see happening? And how's it going? >> Well, you know, it's interesting because, well I have had a lot of people say why Bahrain as the first region that you've put in the Middle East? Because it doesn't seem like the first place somebody would choose. And the thing that kept coming back to me is Jeff has always said we're willing to be misunderstood for long periods of time. And I think this is probably one of those times where people just didn't quite understand why Bahrain. Well, here's why. I met the Crown Prince, we talked about digital innovation and the economy here and he immediately got that they needed to go through a digital transformation. They are not a country that has a lot of oil. They are a smaller country and they really are a working class country that is looking for how do they have sustainment? And they've done things in the past around financial services that really got them going. They would spear head things. And I think he saw the opportunity that this could help them jump-start the economy and they could kind of be a hub for innovation. So they created the right policies around Cloud First. They created the right telecommunications policy. They were one of the first to deregulate. They had good pricing for utilities. They were friendly toward businesses. And they had a culture that we felt could fit well with us, as well as our partner community. >> Couple of observations, being the first time here, so thank you for inviting us and allowing us to cover you here. One, they're a learning culture, they speak multiple languages, why not add programming to it, software? Two, they like to move fast. They just built a track in 14 months, they're not afraid to go faster. >> They go fast. >> That's Amazon. Amazon, you guys move at a speed of a whole 'nother cadence. And then, my observation again, compared to other areas as I look around is that the percentage of the population of Bahrainians is large, is a lot of people live here, that are native, and they're talented. >> Well, one of the things you said that I think is key is that they move fast, they're used to being frugal on how they do things and they're very scrappy. And that really fits with their culture because, again, they have to do things different than some of the other minimalist countries who are-- they're not quite as rich. But they have this culture of really moving fast and they took down blockers like crazy. I mean, as we came in and were making a decision on-- >> What were some of those blockers? Like, stumbling blocks, are they more hurdles? What were they? >> They were stumbling blocks but they were-- we had to really come in and talk about why telecommunications, policies and pricing had to change because in an old-school model of Telco, there's a lot of big charges. And when you have a digital economy coming in, if you think about, you have a few transactions for a lot of money in an old-school. In a new-school world, you have millions of transactions for a little bit, 'cause you've got to be able to transact a lot, and that's why your telecommunications industry's got to be set up as well as you want it deregulated. They'd already deregulated it so they worked with us to open it up, to set the policies, and now Batelco, who is one of our major telecommunications partners here, is doing manage services on AWS, they've gotten all kinds of people trained. And it's just an example of how they look at an opportunity and say we have got to innovate and make changes if we want to have a sustainment in the 21st century economy. >> And you guys are bringing a lot of goodness to the table, they're quick learners, they're smart, they've got their entrepreneurial vibe. They're not afraid to put some funds of funds together and get some professional investment going on. So that's going to level up the entrepreneurship base. The question is when will the region be ready? How's that going? It's under construction. We've been hearing it's been impacting and, frankly, bringing in to this country an agenda item of sustainability and sustainable energy. Well, why would they need sustainable energy if they've got oil? >> Well they-- (laughs) [John] - Why burn it if you can sell it? That's what the British Prime Minister-- >> Well they do and they've had a new find but I think they have to get to the new oil that they've found but they're not-- I think, what I understand, they're not banking on that, they're going to bank on a digital economy. So they know this is kind of a guaranteed way to really grow what they're doing and bringing out outside others. There's two big elements they're doing. One is they're creating policies for data that allows other countries to put their data here safely and with the right laws. That is game changing. So that's one big thing they're doing. The second thing is they have the spirit of teaching and training so they're getting other countries to come in and talk to them about what they're doing. And remember, John, they're already moving the government to the Cloud and they don't even have their Cloud here yet. So they've done all their homework and they're already moving more work loads into the Cloud that they don't feel need to be here. But they've looked at security design, compliance practices, and they're like, we're moving, we're not waiting. >> They're Cloud First. >> They're Cloud First. >> Okay, so when do you expect the construction to be ready? Ballpark, I know you can't probably give an exact date but when-- >> We expect it'll be ready by Q1 of 2019 and we're excited. It's going to be one of the most innovative regions. And by the way, I dunno if you saw, I had a big star on the map today in my presentation. We have literally, at AWS, had a big hole in the world with no region in the Middle East or Africa, and now we are going to have this region so it is exciting, and I know that the region itself is really anxious to get going. >> Well not only are you an amazing executive, I've seen you work, I've seen what you've done, checking the boxes, doing the hard work, getting down and dirty and doing hustling and scrapping, but you also made some good strategic bets. This one really is successful because I think, two things, you bring a region to the area for AWS but you guys are doing it in a way that's partnering with the government, you're actually-- as industry contributing. I think that's a case there that's going to probably be recognized down the road when people figure that out. But that's going to be a great one. But the cultural win, for you, is pretty amazing and I have to say, yesterday I went to the women breakfast that you hosted and I've never been at a women breakfast, and I've been to a lot of them because I like to be involved, where I got kicked out of a table because they need the space, so it was so crowded. Sorry guys, you're out, I got booted. I didn't leave the room, I had to just move, because they had workshops. Take a minute to explain the women breakfast you had because I think that was extraordinary and a proof point that the narrative of the region, women don't go to school, all this nonsense that's out there, take a minute to clarify this, this is a cultural shift. There might be some cultural things going on. >> Well, the women are here, #SmartIsBeautiful. They are amazing. And they are very educated and in fact, 53% of the government work force here are females at high level jobs too, they're not just low level. And I actually met with the King this week who told me that he was able-- he has the first Supreme Court Justice, that's a female, in the Middle East. And he said it was against culture but he did it because he said this woman was so amazing and she was so talented and she fit the role, she had the job description down. And he said it's gone great, so the women here are smart, they're talented, they're educated, and they actually get degrees in Computer Science. Here in Bahrain, 60% of the Computer Science students are females. Now, what is not happening, is their not always getting out and getting these jobs. And the second thing is, right now, we're still working with them to teach the right skills. A lot of skills are actually outdated tech skills and I know, John, you see this too, even in the US. You have universities that are still teaching the wrong skills for Cloud, so we are working with them at the university and the high school level that actually teach and certify on the right skills. But the women are talented, they're amazing. There are some cultural things that we're going to work together on but there's really no reason we can't have an amazing and talented workforce of women here in the Middle East. >> We had Mohammed on, who's the chief executive of the IGA, the Information e-Government Authority. He told me that any citizen can get a certification for free in this country. >> Yes! Oh my gosh, so I've never seen this. So our partner here, Tamkeen, who's like The Labour Fund, about a year and a half ago, agreed that any citizen that got a certification on AWS, it would be 100% paid for. And then we just announced today that they're actually also going to pay 100% of Bahraini companies that want to move to the Cloud. They're serious about this, they are serious. And they are being a role model and, again John, why are they doing it? They are doing it because they realize that they want to be a true digital economy and grow their businesses here and create new. They got to move faster because they're smaller. They've got to be scrappier, they got to move faster, they got to do things a little bit different. >> The other thing I want to point out, you can't really see it on the camera, but behind us you have, essentially, a mix of commercial and public sector. The show here is so, so crowded, couldn't get into the keynote speech, overflow of room was packed, this is attracting everyone from the Gulf region here. Not just public sector, but commercial businesses. This is not a one time thing, this is a-- the pent-up demand is here. What do you expect is going to happen when the region gets here built out? >> Well, if you look at all the partners around, I mean you have Trend Micro over here, and others, many of them have come because they're excited about us putting a region here. And Andy Jassy and I both have had many of our partners say when are you going to have a region in the Middle East? So we expect a lot more partners are going to come. Just like you they're going to see the value of being here. But, additionally, I don't know what we're going to do for our conference, our summit, because we've already out-grown this space and you're right, we have delegates here from Jordan, the UAE, Saudi Arabia, of course Bahrain, Kuwait, the US. So many different groups are being represented here and I think also South Africa, we have some folks from South Africa. >> Well theCUBE is here, we're making great observations and great commentary. I got to say that you're even attracting amazing talent from the US, besides theCUBE. General Keith Alexander was here. >> Yes he was. >> John Wood from Telos, and all these partners, all visionaries who see the opportunity. This is important, you're not being misunderstood by the people who know Amazon. >> No, I agree. And you made a point earlier that I think is important. Even though I'm kind of here for this conference, leading it, this is not a public sector conference, it's a AWS Summit. It has tons of commercial, tons of public sector. The thing that's a little bit different when you get to some of these countries is they are more government lead, so that is the reason it's important to have this relationship with government if you really want to, but you don't want to surprise them. And you want to work with them to help make sure that they and the country are successful. >> Well Teresa, it's been fun to observe and watch your successes continue to raise the bar here in your job. This is a whole 'nother level when you talk about really filling a hole, you see a hole, you fill it. >> Yep, find a whole, fill it (laughs). >> I heard someone say that once in a motivation speech. Oh, that was you, "You see a hole you fill it. "Oh, we got to hole in the Middle East, fill it!" You have a region here, you've got great success in Washington, DC, CIA, other governments. Congratulations, and thanks for all your support-- >> Thank you John for being here, thank you. >> Thank you, live coverage here. We are here in Bahrain in the Middle East of CUBE's first time. I'm John Furrier, your host here, covering the exclusive Amazon Web Services Summit, and covering the historic launch of the new region in the Middle East. This should change the game, this is going to be a digital hub. It's going to have impact to entrepreneurship, economics and society. We'll be covering it at theCUBE. Stay with us for more after this short break. (jubilant music)

>> Announcer: Live from the Computer History Museum, in Mountain View, California, it's theCUBE! Covering DevNet Create 2018, brought to you by Cisco. >> Hello and welcome back to theCUBE's exclusive live coverage here in Mountain View, California, the heart of Silicon Valley at the Computer History Museum for Cisco's DevNet Create. I'm here with Lauren Cooney, the analyst, for the Wikibon team and our next guest is I'm proud to have Guy Kawasaki here on theCUBE. Guy is, goes without mentioning, a legend in the industry. Currently, the chief evangelist for Canva author of Art of the Start, a real pioneer in entrepreneurship, tech entrepreneurship, tech evangelism. Guy, great to see you, thanks for joining us. >> Thank you. >> Among other things, you've done a lot of amazing things. Thanks for joining us. >> What better place to be. >> The tech culture now is so mainstream. You're seeing Facebook CEO draw in more audience than a Supreme Court justice. >> More people watched the Senate hearings yesterday-- >> He probably has more impact than a Supreme Court justice. >> He's running the world. The tech culture has really grown to be a mainstream...in the early days the computer industry when it was really the beginning of the revolution, the PC revolution, Macintosh and the PC, you were there. So much has happened. I mean, as you look back, I mean looked out at the young guns coming up, what's your view, what's your reaction to all this? You have these (mumbles) moments. >> What's your take on all this? >> I suppose many people would say, we never thought it would get to this point. It's turned destructive and negative and all that. But it's a short snapshot of time and, first of all, can we put the genie back in the bottle? No, so it doesn't really matter. But, all things considered, the democratization of computing, everybody has a computer, whether it's a phone or a computer. The democratization of the transfer of information, obviously some information may be faint, may be not what you like. But would we go back to a time where we send things by fax machines? Not at all, I mean all things considered, >> it's a great time to be alive. >> Democratization goes through these waves, democratization with the PC, democratization with the internet, democratization of web 2.0 and social media. The beginning of social media, about 15 years, maybe 10, whatever way you might want to mark it. And now democratization with data and AI is interesting. So you're having these waves of democratization. It's going to take some time to sort out. I mean, as you look at the tech trends, how do you make sense of it, or what do you get excited about? How do you surf that wave? (chuckling) If you're going to surf the wave, the big wave coming, which some say is block chain and cryptocurrency and decentralization. What's the wave that you're on, that's the question? >> To use a surfing analogy, if we're going to go down that rat hole, a good, experienced surfer knows where to sit, can look out and say, I'll take the fourth wave. And I'll sit in the right place, turn around at the right time, paddle at the right time, you know, all that. And then there's people like me. We sit in the same place, and every 15 minutes, the right wave comes along and catches us. Those are the two theories. >> I think if only predicting tech trends were as easy as predicting surfing. >> Interviewer: Timing's everything. >> Timing is everything, luck is a lot to do with it. We only learn about the Apples and the Googles and the Ciscos and the Facebooks and the Pinterests and the Instagrams. I think you think, well, there are these really smart people and they can predict the trend or cause a trend. I think it's more the game of big numbers where if you have enough surfers in the water, somebody's going to catch a wave. (chuckling) And then you can say, yeah, I knew he was the best surfer. >> But really, right place, right time. >> And you got to know what a wave looks like. >> Guy: Well, yeah. >> You got to be, like, okay, am I in a tide pool >> or am I on a boogie board. >> And to your point, you've got to be in the water. [John] Yeah, yeah. >> You can't be standing on the shore, saying I'm going to catch a wave. You have to be in the water, and if you're in the water, >> nine times out of ten you're going to get crushed. (chuckling) >> If you're not out in front of that next wave, you're driftwood. In surfing, people will jump and try to take your wave, this sounds like the tactic of the whole industry. >> Guy: Exactly, right, right. >> What waves do you see that are coming, in your mind. You've seen a lot of waves in your day. I mean, right now, what wave is exciting you right now. >> If you look at the waves, what's out there? >> What I learn about that is, you can only declare your intelligence and victory after the fact, right. I can tell you the internet of things is big. I can tell you that social media is big. I can tell you that computing is big. Problem is I could tell you that because I know it's big now. Can I tell you what's in the future, no. If I could...first of all I wouldn't tell you. (chuckling) So I think in a rare moment of humility it's the law of big numbers. Infinite monkeys typing at keyboards, somebody's going to come up with Beethoven. >> I want to ask you a question because I get asked this question a lot, Hey, John, you've been around a while. I want to catch that next big wave, I want to be in the next Google, I want to be rich on stock options. (Guy chuckling) I said, a lot of times the best companies where you take the most advantage of is when no one else wants to work there or no one yet knows it. We really can't say, Oh, I'm going to get rich on that company because by that time it's either too late and people are chasing the wrong thing. >> Guy: Absolutely. >> How do you give that same advice to someone? >> Listen, you're talking to a guy who quit Apple twice and turned down Steve once. So how smart could I be? (John chuckling) Now we can say Apple is the most valuable company in the world, you should have stayed there. Well, thank you very much, thanks for tell me now. I think it's really... I don't want to be too dramatic, but I could almost build a case that you should invest in or work for the most dumb-ass idea you heard of. Because at any given point-- >> Airbnb, we're going to rent out mattresses >> and give out cereal. >> Very good example, Airbnb. Let's face it, if somebody told you Airbnb, before there was Airbnb, you would say, So you're telling me that I'm going to rent a room from somebody I met on the internet, and I'm going to sleep in that person's house, hoping he's not a murderer or pedophile. On the flip side, you're saying, I'm going to rent out my room to someone who I hope is not a pedophile or an ax murderer. Or ebay...I'm going to buy this printer from 3000 miles away and I'm going to assume it works. Or I'm going to sell my good printer to someone 3000 miles away and assume that he's not going to say he never got it or that it didn't work and he wants a refund. So if you go down the line of all these ideas, you'd have to say at the time, nobody. Even take an extreme: Zappos. If you told me that women would buy shoes without trying them on, seeing them, smelling them, and touching them, I would tell you you're crazy. You'd buy a book that way. You'd buy a CD that way, you'd buy a DVD. Would you buy shoes, would you buy shoes without trying them on. >> I totally would. (laughing) Now I can say that. >> To Zappos's credit, some of the way it made that work is it offered shipping back for free. So there was really no risk. But I would have been a skeptic about Zappos. >> Well, it was one of those things for me, Zappos, where they shipped in one day so I could get them immediately, try them on and if they didn't work, I could ship them back and get a different size. It was no big deal, it was very low overhead. So that's one of the reasons that that worked. But I think when you mention all of these great things like Ebay and Airbnb, it's really part of the sharing economy with people really wanting to share the goodness of their goods with other people that need them. >> It's just really connecting those folks. >> Places like Oakland and San Francisco, where there are certain streets where you line up and you just get in the next car with a stranger, and you go to San Francisco with them. >> Lauren: Yeah. >> And it's not computerized or anything. It's just trust. >> I did that once and it was frightening. (laughs) You never know who the driver is going to be or how they're going to drive. >> But you did it. >> I did it. >> People do it every day. >> I know. >> I'm amazed. >> I did it once, but... (laughing) >> Let's ask you a question. What's the craziest idea that you've seen that worked and the craziest idea that didn't work. >> Let's start with the easy one. I had a company called garage.com, and we were a venture capitalist investment bank, so we got pitched all the time. One day, a guy comes in and says, I'm going to build... A dirigible hotel over San Francisco. So you stay in the dirigible. Another person said, We're going to build a geodesic dome over Los Angeles. And I can't remember if it was to keep the air pollution in or out. I'll just tell you one really great one. These people were from Seagate so they had Cray, they worked for Seagate. And they say, We have this patent-pending, curb-jumping, patent-pending whatever technology so that if you drop your laptop with your hard disk, the head won't crash into the hard disk and ruin the hard disk. And at the time, this was 15 years ago, that was a great idea, right. It wasn't solid state. Heads crashing into hard disks. >> Moving parts. >> Seagate, so this is a great idea. Every hard disk in every laptop should be like it. So we get in the car, we go to their office, and the receptionist says, Oh, they're running late because they're on the phone with IBM. IBM is really interested in using this technology for the IBM PC laptop. Keep us waiting, keep us waiting. And they get out, and, Yeah, IBM was really, they're so excited, they're ready to move. And I, like, we're really excited. And finally I said, Give me the jist, what is your technology, is it like some special chip that detects gravitational fall, it's too fast, it's got to be hitting the ground so it parks the head because it recognizes motion or whatever. And I swear to God, I swear to God, he brings out this piece of foam and he says this is military spec foam. So we take your hard disk, we put this foam thing around it, and we put it in the laptop. And I swear to God, I was having an out of body experience. >> You're telling me-- >> I drove all the way here-- >> That your proprietary technology is putting foam around the hard disk, and IBM is excited by this foam. So welcome to my life. >> So what are you up to now. Talk about your evangelism. I know you're a (mumbles) Mercedes. You have a bunch of things going on. You've been very prolific in social media. You were on the suggested user list from day one on Twitter. >> No, I wasn't. >> Oh, no, you weren't, that's right. But you have a zillion followers. >> That's why I have never forgiven Twitter for that. >> I thought they put you on. >> Guy: No. >> Okay, I stand corrected. >> You had to be an actress. >> Some tech people got on there, I know. >> Guy: Yeah. >> But I was not on. >> There you go. >> Measly 20,000 or so. But you got a million and a half followers active. You've really been prolific in a good way. (laughing) Engaging with communities. >> Yeah. >> What have you learned and how do you view this next generation of social because you're seeing the Facebooks, you're seeing LinkedIn. There's siloed platforms. Is there hope? What's your take on it, is it going to grow? >> I've come to the point where I always believe things are never as good or as bad as they seem. So I don't think it's as bad as people say. If these social media sites are selling my data, they're going to go broke selling my data. (laughs) I don't know how you could look at my data. First of all, I never look at ads, so go ahead, sell my data. I'm not going to look at the ad anyway. It doesn't matter. I think the ability to spread ideas, arguably good or bad, the ability to spread ideas with social media, all things considered, is better. It's going to be abused and all that. My father was a state senator in Honolulu, and we were into banner ads way before anybody else. Banner was literally a piece of cloth with his name on it that you staple to the side of a building, saying Vote for Duke Kawasaki. That was the nature of banner advertisement back then. Do I think that social media targeting and all that for sales is a good thing? Yes, I do. If you're a real estate broker, and you wanted to reach people who live in Silicon Valley, age 50 to 70, female or male or whatever, in such-and-such an income bracket, how else can you do it but Facebook? >> It's good and bad. >> That's why Facebook is so successful. >> The metadata is all about the clan and the culture, and I think putting ideas out there is a way to send your ideas into the ether, make it happen. So, that's key. Now, we're here at a developer conference, so one of the things that's also a big part of this community is the notion of how open source has become a tier one citizen, and it's really running the world. Which is also grounded in community as well. You have this ethos of community, ethos of software open. >> I believe in open source. I believe that the more intelligent people pounding on your stuff, the better it is. I'm an author, and what I do is, speaking in the sense of open source. So right now I'm about 80% done with my book. I put out a post on social media saying anybody that wants to review my book, test my book, send me your information. So I do this, I cut it off at about 280 people. I send them the Word document, the entire Word document of my book. Does that mean they can take it and publish it in China tomorrow, yes. But, from that, I get hundreds and hundreds of comments. >> John: Wisdom of the crowds, self-editing. >> Yeah, and they point out stuff that I never would have noticed because I'm too close to at this point. So is there a downside, yes. Is there piracy, yes. Arguably, would those pirates have bought the book anyway? No. >> Our content's all free. We're really big in China because they actually take it and translate it in the native language. >> Guy: Which you would never have done. >> With all the jargon, you can't hire a-- >> Guy: You would never have done that. >> Yeah, exactly. >> Guy, great to catch up with you. Thanks for coming on. What are you working on now, you mentioned the book, what's the book about? >> The book is called Wise Guy, and it's a compilation of the stories that have influenced my life. So it's not an auto-biography. It is not a memoir. Have you ever heard of the book Chicken Soup for the Soul? >> John: Yeah, yeah. >> You know, it's inspirational stories. This is miso soup for the soul. (laughing) So I'm working on that, TV evangelism with Canva is just going gangbusters. Brand ambassadors for Mercedes Benz. I'm on the board of directors of a company called Cheeze with a zee. It's an anti-social photo-sharing and vidoo-sharing app. And that's it. >> You've been an inspiration to many, great job of the year has been a big fan of your work. Thanks for coming on theCUBE. Really appreciate it. >> Thank you. >> Guy Kawasaki here inside theCUBE. We're at Devnet Create. This is Cisco's cloud developer conference. Different from their core Devnet Cisco Networking developer, and this is all about dev ops open source. And this is theCUBE bringing you all the action here in Mountain View, California. We'll be right back with more after this short break.

Live from San Juan, Puerto Rico. It's the Cube. Covering Blockchain Unbound. Brought to you by, Blockchain Industries. >> Welcome back everyone. This is the Cube's exclusive coverage in Puerto Rico. I'm John Furrier, the co-host of the Cube, co-founder of SiliconANGLE Media. In Puerto Rico for Blockchain Unbound, this is a global conference. Going to the next level in industry migration up and growth, and blockchain, decentralized internet and obviously cryptocurrency, changing the world up and down the stack. I have an industry veteran here. My next guest Salim is founding CEO, Singularity University and author of the best-selling book, Exponential Organizations. He's seen many waves, friend, known him for years. Haven't seen you in a while, you look great. You haven't changed. >> (laughs) The hair has changed a lot. >> (laughs) I've still got mine. Hey great to see you. Bumping into you in Puerto Rico is really compelling because you have a nose for the future, and I've always respected that about you. You have the ability to understand at the root level what's going on but also pull back and see the big picture. Puerto Rico is the center of all the action because the killer wrap in this is money. So money is driving a lot of change, but there's some fundamental infrastructure, stack upgrades going on. Blockchain has been highly discussed, crypto is highly hyped, ICO's are-- Scammers out there but now some legits. What's your take? What's your view right now on the current situation? >> Well I think what's happening with a place like Puerto Rico is. When you get kind of wiped out of the old, you have the chance to leap-frog. When you think about any of our traditional environments, laying down Blockchain technologies, et cetera. It's really, really hard because you have to get the Supreme Court, the Constitution to approve blockchain based land titles, and then you build a stack there from a legal perspective. Here they can basically start from scratch and do it completely from the ground up. Which is what's exciting for everybody here. >> The top story that we've been reporting here is that Puerto Rico is rebooting. The hurricane obviously, I won't say a forcing function, but in general when you get wiped out, that is certainly an opportunity to rebuild. If there's any kind of silver lining in that. >> There's a long history of that. Japan got wiped out during World War II, so did Germany and they rebounded incredibly. We've seen that recently with Rwanda. We do a lot of work in Medillin, in Colombia, and that's just been one of the worst cities in the world, is now the most innovative city in the world. So this is the transition that we've seen a pattern for. >> One of the things I'm really excited about decentralization and blockchain is all the conversations have the same pattern. Efficiency is getting wired into things. So if you see slack in the system or inefficiencies, entrepreneurs are feeling the void. The entrepreneurial eye of the tiger goes that to that opportunity to reset, reduce steps, save time and make things easier. Classic value proposition in these new markets. You run a great university but also author of Exponential Organizations. A lot of people are scared, they're like, "Whoa, hold on. Slow down, this is bullshit, "we're not going to prove it." And then the other half saying, "No this is the future." So you have two competing forces colliding. You have the new guard saying, "We got to do this, this is the future." Old guard saying, "Blocks, Road blocks, blockers" You covered this in your book in a way, so how do you win, who wins? How do you create a win win? >> You can create a win win. What you have to do is leap-frog to the newest, fast as possible. The only question is, how can you get to the new? And the problem that you have is, as you rightly pointed out is. When you try disruptive innovation in any large organization or institution, the immune system attacks. I saw this at Yahoo running Brickhouse. Yahoo is supposedly a super advanced organization, and yet the minute you try to do something really radical, you spend all your time fighting the mother ship. So I've been focusing a lot of time the last few years focused on that particular problem, and we're pretty excited, we believe we've cracked it. >> How does someone crack that code? If I'm Puerto Rico, obviously the government officials are here at Blockchain Unbound. This is not just a tech conference. It's like a tech conference, investor conference, kind of world economic form rolled into one. >> Sure >> There's some serious players here. What's your advice to them? >> So what we do, and let me describe what we do in the private sector and what we do in the public sector. A couple of years ago, the global CI of Procter & Gamble came to me and said, "Hey, we'd like to work with you." And what we typically see is, some executive from a big company will come to Singularity. They'll go back headquarters with their hair on fire going, "Oh my god!" If they're from BMW for example. They go back going, "Drones, autonomous cars, hyperloop, VR." Back in Munich, they'll be given a white coat and some medicine and be put in a corner. "You're too crazy, now stand over there." And that's the tension that you are talking about. And then somebody else will come six months later then they'll do the Silicon Valley tour, then they'll have one of our people go over there, and it takes about three years for the big company to get up to speed, just the C-Suite to get up to speed. Forget transmitting that down. So I was talking to Linda Clement-Holmes and I said, "Look we're about to start this three year dance "I've been thinking about this, "let's shrink it to 10 weeks." So we designed what we now call an ExO Sprint. Which is how you get a leadership, culture and management thinking of a legacy organization, three years ahead in a 10 week process. And the way we do it is, we're in an opening workshop, that's really shock and awe. Freaks out all the incumbent management. And then young leaders and future lieutenants of the business do the thinking of what should come next. And they report back. Some thing about that opening workshop suppresses the immune system, and when the new ideas arrive they don't attack them in the same way. >> It's like a transplant if you will. >> It's like when you do a kidney transplant. You suppress the immune system, right? It's that same idea. So we've now run that like a dozen times. We just finished TD Ameritrade, HP, Visa, Black & Decker, et cetera. We're open-sourcing it. We're writing a manual on how to do it so that anybody can self-provision that process and run it. Because, every one of the Global 5000 has to go through that process with or without us. So then we said, "Okay, could we apply it to the public sector?" Where the existing policy is the immune system. You try and update transportation and you're fighting the taxis. Or education and you're fighting the teacher's unions. We have a 16 week process that we run in cities. We do it through a non-profit called the Fastrack Institute based out of Miami. We've run it four times in Medillin, in Colombia and we just finished four months with the mayor of Miami on the future of transportation. We're talking to the officials here about running a similar process here in Puerto Rico. >> Are they serious about that? Because they throw money at projects, it kind of sits on the vine, dies on the vine. Because there is an accelerated movement right now. I mean, exponential change is here. I'll give you an example. We're seeing and reporting that this digital nation trend is on fire. Suddenly everyone wants digital cities, IoT is out there. But now what cryptocurrency, the money being the killer app. It's flowing everywhere, out of Colombia, out of everywhere. Every country is moving money around with crypto it's easier, faster. So everyone is trying to be the crypto, ICO city. Saw it on Telegram today, France wants to be, Paris wants to be the ICO city. Puerto Rico, Bahrain, Armenia, Estonia. U.K. just signed a deal with Coinbase. What the hell is going on? How do you rationalize this and what do you see as a future of state here? >> Well I think, couple of thoughts. And you're hitting into some of the things I've been thinking about a lot recently. Number one is, that when you have a regulatory blockage, it's a huge economic developing opportunity for anybody that can leap-frog it. Nevada authorized autonomous cars early and now a lot of testing is done there. So the cities that have appreciated-- >> So you're saying regulatory is an opportunity to have a competitive advantage? >> Huge, because look at Zug in Switzerland. Nobody had ever heard of the place. You pass through there on the way to Zermatt. But now it's like a destination that everybody needs to get to because they were earlier. This is the traditional advantage of places like Hong Kong or Dubai or whatever. They're open and they're hungry. So we're going to see a lot of that going on. I think there's a bigger trend though, which is that we're seeing more and more action happen at the city level and very, very little happen at the national or global level. The world is moving too fast today for a big country to keep up. It's all going to happen this next century at the city level. >> Or smaller countries. >> Or small countries. >> So what's going on here at Blockchain Unbound for you? Why are you here? What are you doing? What's your story? >> I have this kind of sprint that we run in the private sector and in the public sector and then a community of about 200 consultants. And I have to pay 200 people in 40 countries and it's and unholy mess. Withholding taxes and concerns around money transfer costs-- >> It's a hassle. >> It's a nightmare. And so I've been thinking about an internal cryptocurrency just to pay our network. All of a sudden now, three or four countries have said, "Hey we want to buy that thing, "to have access to your network." So I've got all this demand over here, and I need to figure out how to design this thing properly. So I've been working with some of the folks like Brock and DNA and others to help think through it. But what I'm really excited about here is that, there's a-- You know what I love is the spectrum of dress. You got the radical, Burning Man, hippie guy, all the way to a three-piece suit. And that diversity is very, very rich and really, real creativity comes from it. This feels like the web in '96, '95. It's just starting, people know there's something really magical. They don't quite know what to do. >> Well what I'm impressed about is that there's no real bad vibe from either sets of groups. There's definitely some posturing, I've noticed some things. Obviously I'm wearing a jacket, so those guys aren't giving me hugs like they're giving Brock a hug. I get that, but the thing is, the coexistence is impressive. I'm not seeing any real mud-slinging, again I didn't like how Brock got handled with John Oliver. I thought that was unacceptable because he's done a lot of good work. I don't know him personally, I've never met him, but I like what he's doing, I like his message. His keynote here, at d10e, was awesome. Really the right messaging, I thought. That's something that I want to get behind and I think everyone should. But he just got trashed. Outside of that, welcoming culture. And they're like, "Hey if you don't like it, "just go somewhere else." They're not giving people a lot of shit for what they do. It's really accepting on all sides. >> Here's my take on the whole decentralization thing. We run the world today on a series of very top down hierarchical structures. The corporation, the military industrial complex, Judeo-Christian religions, et cetera. That are very hierarchical-- Designed for managing scarcity, right? We're moving the world very, very quickly to abundance. We now have an abundance of information, we'll soon have an abundance of energy, we'll soon have an abundance of money, et cetera. And when you do these new structures, you need very decentralized structures. Burning Man, the maker movement, the open-source movement, et cetera. It's a very nurturing, participatory, female type of archetype and we're moving very quickly to that. What we're seeing in the world today is the tension going from A to B. >> And also when you have that next level, you usually have entrepreneurs and sponsorships. People who sponsor entrepreneurs the promotion side of it, PR and that starts the industry. Then when it hits that level it's like, "Wow it's going to the next level." Then it gets capital markets to come in. Then you have new stake holders coming in now with government officials. This thing is just rocket-shipping big time. >> Yes >> And so, that's going to change the dynamics. Your thoughts and reaction to that dynamic. >> Completely, for example... When we do these public sprints we end up usually with a decentralized architecture that needs to built. For example, we're working with the justice system in Colombia. And the Supreme Court has asked us to come in and re-do the entire justice system. Now you think about all the court filings and court dates, and briefs, and papers all should be digitized and put on a blockchain type structure because it's all public filing. We have an opportunity to completely re-do that stack and then make that available to the rest of the world. I think that trend is irreversible for anything that previously had centered-- I mean, most government services are yes, ratifying this and ratifying that. They all disappear. >> Well Salim, I want to tap your brain for a second. Since you're here, get it out there, I want to throw a problem at you, quick real time riff with you. So one of the things that I've been thinking about is obviously look at what cloud computing did, no one saw Amazon web services early, except some of the insiders like us. Who saw it's easy to host and build a data center. "I have no money, I'm a start-up or whatever." You use AWS, EC2 and S3... They were misunderstood, now it's clear what they're doing. But that generated the DevOps movement. So question for you is, I want to riff with you on is, "Okay that created programmable infrastructure, "the notion of server-less now going mainstream." Meaning, I don't have to talk about the server, I need resource so I can just make software, make it happen. That's flipped around the old model, where it used to be the network would dictate to the applications what they could do. How is that DevOps ethos, certainly it's driven by open-source, get applied to this cryptocurrency? Because now you have blockchain, cryptocurrency, ICO is kind of an application if you will, capital market. How does that model get flipped? Is there a DevOps model, a blockchain ops model, where the decentralized apps are programming the blockchain? Because the plumbing is the moving chain right now. You got, Hashgraph's got traction, then you got Etherium, Lightning's just got 2.5 million dollars. I mean, anyone who's technical knows it's a moving train in the plumbing. But the business logic is pretty well-defined. I'm like, "I want to innovate this process. "I'm going to eliminate the efficiency." So this dynamic. Does the business model drive infrastructure? Does the plumbing drive the business model? Your thoughts on this new dynamic and how that plays out. >> I suspect you and in violent agreement here. It's always going to be lead by the business model because you need something to act as the power of pull to pull the thing along, right? The real reason for the success of Etherium right now is all the ICOs and it was a money driven thing. Today we're going to see these new stacks, now we're on version three of these new types of stacks coming along, and I think they're all looking for a business model. Once we find some new killer ops for this decentralized structure, then you'll see things happen. But the business model is where it's at. >> So basically I agree with you. I think we're on the same page here. But then advice would be to the entrepreneurs, don't fret about the infrastructure, just nail your business model because the switching cost might not be as high as you think. Where in the old days, when we grew up, you made a bad technical assess and you're out of business. So it's kind of flipped around. >> Yeah, just hearing about this term, atomic swaps. Where you can just, essentially once you have a tokenized structure, you can just move it to something else pretty quickly. Therefore, all the effort should be on that. I think finding the really compelling use cases for this world is going to be fascinating to see. >> So software-defined money, software-defined business, software defined society is coming. >> Yes >> Okay, software defined, that's the world Salim thanks for coming on, sharing your awesome expert opinon. Congratulations on your awesome book. How many countries is your book, Exponential Organizations-- >> It's now about a quarter of a million copies in 15 languages. >> Required reading in all MBA programs, and the C-Suite. Congratulations, it's like the TANEx Engineering that Mark Dandriso put out. A whole new paradigm of management is happening. Digital transformation. >> We now have the ability to scale an organization structure as fast as we can scale technology. >> Blockchain you know, the nature of the firm was all about having people in one spot. So centralized, you can manage stuff. Now with blockchain you have a decentralized organization. That's your new book, the Decentralized Organization. >> Although, I'm not sure I have another book in me. >> There's a book out there for somebody, Decentralized Organizations. Salim, thank you for joining us. The Cube here, I'm John Furrier the co-host. Day two coverage of Blockchain Unbound more coverage after this short break. (electronic music)

>> Narrator: Live from Austin, Texas, it's theCUBE, covering KubeCon and CloudNativeCon 2017, brought to you by Red Hat, the Linux Foundation, and theCUBE's ecosystem partners. >> Okay, welcome back, everyone. This is theCUBE's exclusive coverage live here in Austin, Texas for the CNCF's two conferences, CloudNativeCon, which was yesterday, and two days, today and tomorrow, KubeCon for Kubernetes' conference. This is theCUBE, of course, from SiliconANGLE Media. I'm John Furrier with my cohost, Stu Miniman. Our next guest, Dan Kohn, is the executive director of the CNCF, the man who put it all together. Congratulations. Welcome back to theCUBE. Good to see you. >> Oh, absolutely. Thrilled to have you guys back here again. >> So you kind of doing a victory lap here now, high fiving each other? >> Dan: Great hugs. >> John: Great event. >> Laughing: I'm glad it's a good event, and I am hearing fantastic feedback that folks are thrilled to be here. But we sort of describe this moment for the organization and the community as being the end of the beginning. >> John: Yeah. >> Where we now have all the major cloud vendors, all of the biggest enterprise software companies. We have a core group of 14 projects anchored by Kubernetes, but tons and tons of work in front of us. >> And tons of success, so I'm just going to read a couple of highlights from yesterday. There's a lot today. Baidu joins the CNCF, a lot of scaling production application examples, 31 new silver end-user members joined, Alibaba Cloud update to platinum, CoreDNS 1.0, Containerd, Fluentd, Jaeger, tons of news. Obviously, we've been pumping out the coverage. Today, again, more and more great goodness. But really interesting is that you guys have put a frame around this community to allow it to grow, to fertilize the open source vibe, which is all cloud but yet scaled. And you put up a slide I want to get your reaction to that I thought was compelling yesterday during your keynote. It was the flywheel, circle, and it said projects, products, profit. >> Dan: Right. >> And not that you're promoting profit, but you're not hiding the ball, either, saying, hey, you know what? There's a lot of commercial interest in cloud, obviously. We saw AWS' success last week. And that is if you create good products in this community framework, there's profit to be had. >> Right. So first of all, I should admit to plagiarizing that slide from Linux Foundation Executive Director Jim Zemlin. >> And similarly, I think you can look at a lot of aspects... >> It's an open source feature. >> Dan: Yes. >> Free for you to use. >> John: Right. >> Similarly, I think there's a lot of ways in which Kubernetes is trying to build on the success of Linux. And Jim even describes Kubernetes as the Linux of the cloud. >> John: Yeah. >> Stu: Yeah. >> John: That's a good point. >> Dan, one of the things we've been talking around Kubernetes is you talk about scale. >> Dan: Right. >> Talk about scale of the CNCF. You have 4 to 14 projects. People are a little worried when you get all the vendors around here and there's all these projects. It's a foundation thing, it's going to go off the rails. >> Dan: Yeah. >> Customers aren't going to have a voice. How do we make sure we kind of learn from some of the things that other projects have had challenges with in the past? >> And I think that's our advantage, which is the great thing about coming later than some of the other foundations, is we can look at where they had successes and where they had issues. And our aspiration for CNCF is to get to go make entirely new mistakes rather than replicating some of the issues that have come before. And so really from the beginning of CNCF, we had a somewhat unusual and frankly a little bit cumbersome charter where I describe it at times as a three-ring circus. We have a governing board made up of the vendors that are putting a lot of money into the community, but they don't get to run the projects and they don't even get to pick the projects. Instead, they appoint six of the nine members of an independent technical oversight committee, kind of like the Supreme Court. And then we have a third group in the end-user community that I'm thrilled to say is now up to 28 members in it. They appoint one of those folks. We finally got that working. We have Sam Lambert, the director of infrastructure at GitHub, who has just made a huge commitment to Kubernetes and is moving all their infrastructure over into it. Those seven appoint the last two. And so that body, and they just had their public meeting a couple hours ago. They feel very strongly about their independence, about their reputation, that they're trying to make very good judgments based on what they're seeing in the marketplace. >> That's interesting, the three-ring circle. I like how you put it. But let's talk about the end-user piece because I think that's critical. One of the things we were commenting earlier from the Lyft folks was you have a lot of end users who have built some large-scale systems out of their own sheer necessity. >> Dan: Definitely. >> And that is now being donated in. We saw Kubernetes come in with, you shepherded beautifully, went from Google, but you've got Lyft donating an amazing product convoy. >> This first convoy has a huge amount of excitement. And what was fun was, actually, on the same stage that they contributed back in LA in September, Uber contributed a separate project. Now, unlike Uber and Lyft, the two projects are in no way competitive- >> John: Yeah. >> Like Jaeger is really fantastic tracing one. But what they have in common is that they're companies that have had to grow from nothing to extremely high scale and then had problems that they solved. And they wanted to share that expertise with us. >> I want to get your thoughts on this. Because we've been speculating, on theCUBE, we've been kind of thinking, an editorial, but just that this is all good business. Now, that's pretty obvious, right? You're starting to see this kind of contribution, the gifts that keep on giving. These are significant code. >> Dan: Yeah. >> Not like, okay, let's start a little group and huddle and build something organically. You have real goodness coming in from Google, Uber, Lyft, and there's a million others. >> Dan: Right. >> How is that changing the game? Certainly accelerating it. That's really bringing goods to the table. >> Right. I think the whole... >> You have to manage it. >> Well, and for what it's worth, I don't actually manage the projects. And so we do provide a set of services- >> John: The community? >> -to them and we help them, we market them. But one of the unusual aspects of CNCF is that the projects do actually manage themselves. A little bit of guidance from the TOC, but we really are unusual in that sense. And that's one of the reasons the projects have been... >> And what's interesting is, to connect the dots, though, one step further, you're talking about a commercial entity donating massive intellectual property in the open for all the goodness of everyone else. But yet that flywheel is continuing. They're still using it. So it is inherently commercial dynamic. >> Right. And back to that circle, I think really the underlying concept is that companies agree that sharing key parts of their infrastructure has a huge amount of value to the whole ecosystem, to each other. And then they're absolutely eager to compete above that. And so you can look at it with the public clouds where we have now Amazon, Microsoft, Google, Alibaba, IBM, Oracle all at the table. They are absolutely fierce competitors. But they're saying that this specific software infrastructure layer isn't the area that they want to compete. They want to compete on all the value-added services, customer service, et cetera. >> Dan, I wonder if you can speak to how CNCF connects to some of the broader communities out there. Things like Kata containers got announced coming out of the OpenStack group. You've got a serverless track happening here, kind of extends some of where Kubernetes is going. How does CNCF fit into the broader... >> Sure. And it's definitely the case that all the innovation out there cannot happen in CNCF. Most obviously, everything that we do, almost everything depends on Linux. And so that's our parent organization, the Linux Foundation. But we've had a good collaboration with Jonathan Bryce from OverStack. They have two booths on the floor here at the show. And we've spoken to Clear Containers and RunV, the two predecessors in the past. But the part that I'm particularly pleased with for Kata containers is that it is an OCI-compliant runtime, that's another sister organization, and is really designed to work well for Kubernetes. And then they can pitch that and let the market go decide which container runtimes they find the most valuable. >> Obviously a lot of traction here in terms of the sentiment around service meshes and pluggable lock-in textures. That's been very cool. But security came up. So I want to get your thoughts around security, obviously storage and these older models around how to deal with storage and networking. Obviously, always in the action. >> Yeah. >> But security is top of mind for everyone. How is that being addressed? You know, talk is out there... >> Sure. I mean our philosophy on this is that moving to cloud-native and particularly the continuous integration and continuous development that goes along with that is the most important step that you can do to help secure your infrastructure. And Equifax is the example everyone always brings up. But there was a case where they were using known insecure software and they didn't have the processes up to place where instead of doing quarterly updates or monthly updates, you want to be doing dozens of updates per day. And a cloud-native infrastructure allows you to do that. >> What's next for you? Because you've got great traction with both community response, and the community has been absolutely amazing, the quality of people, level has been great, but also at the funding sponsors. You've got a lot of people that are involved. What's next? What happens next? What do you envision happening? What's the plan, and then how do you view that evolving? >> Well, I hate to fall into the buzzword implosion here, but if you go back to the crossing the chasm metaphor, I think we're still very much just in the early adopter phase. 2018 could very well be the moment that we jump over to the early majority. And I do feel like this whole community now has the velocity to do that and that we're on track for it. But as that happens, there's just far, far more people who need to be educated so they understand the projects and the options and how to work with them. And then hopefully they go from just being consumers of these technologies to contributors and that we can welcome them into our community and hopefully get the advantage of their expertise as well. >> I want to get your thoughts on a comment that Stu and I were talking about. Stu, you and I were talking about the notion of value creation above the stack, and then how Kubernetes, although some could say being commoditized, but it's also creating value because with that consistency of Kubernetes, you can now create value. So we believe, and I want to get your reaction to this, because we think a whole new ecosystem dynamic will emerge of a new kind of ecosystem. And if this new app developer combined with software engineering, which is really going on, you're talking about the cloud, the app developers will just build in value, that value creation will be rewarded. That's where monetization will be happening. >> And if I could build off that... >> John: Yeah. >> Dan, I loved one of your opening comments. You quoted, "exciting times for boring infrastructure, "maybe too exciting." So this week we've been teasing out there's a lot of work to make that infrastructure boring. You've got everybody on this floor, the CNCF board, lots of new projects making that. Where the action is and what this is going to create is that application monetization and the speed and agility of being able to create these cool new cloud-native applications out there. So it's interesting dynamic, spans broad pieces of this, layers of the stack there. >> Yeah. Well, I will point out that there was an odd level of unanimity of just a ton of different leaders in the community, in keynotes from Craig McLuckie and Chen Goldberg and others where they all agree that Kubernetes is not by any means the ultimate answer or the final answer. I think everybody now expects to see Kubernetes as a core aspect of the infrastructure for software for the next decade or more. But there's a belief that there's a whole ton of value that needs to be added above it, particularly to try and show for a regular application developer who just has a PHP app or no-GS microservices or anything else what's the easiest way to go from having a piece of software and deploying it effectively. >> Dan, so it's interesting. You watch the people on the outside. They're like, oh, look at Kubernetes. They're all holding hands and saying Kumbaya. We know there's some spirited debates that happen- >> Dan: Definitely. >> In the code, some projects that are sometimes competing up there. Why has the community come together, and where are some of the areas that we still need to work on and improve to help customers going forward? >> And again, I think they have the big advantage of having watched other communities that didn't value community and consensus and the ability to work through their issues. And so thankfully, we just have a ton of really capable engineers who also have some of those social or personal qualities that they care about working these things out. And to date, at least, I think most of those disagreements have been settled pretty amicably and in a positive direction. I think there's still huge swathes of this space that are still up in the air. Storage is an obvious one where there's a ton of work going on in a storage working group of CNCF. Serverless is another where I think everyone agrees that the application deployment model of AWS Lambda is really exciting and has things that people should replicate and should be brought over to Kubernetes. But how that should happen, what the software is, et cetera, there's still, in fact, we have our first serverless track today here at KubeCon where several different competing approaches are all talking about what they'd like to do. >> Awesome stuff. And you also announced some dates for next year, December 11 and 13 in Seattle. >> Dan: Yes. >> Okay. >> Dan: That's a year from now. >> November 14 and 15 in Shanghai. >> Now, you and I met in Hangzhou in the lobby, which was just amazing. But I certainly am hoping to convince you to go back to China with us. This will be our first event... >> I got a three-year visa. >> Good, yeah, that's the exactly right one. But this will be our first event in China, which I think is just a huge opportunity. We now have Baidu, Tencent, Huawai, ZTE, a number of startups. There's just so much excitement for this space over there that we're really excited to satisfy. >> Stu: And Copenhagen in May. >> And that's the last one. Thank you. May 2 to 4 in Copenhagen, and we're really excited for the event, to bring it to Europe and the rest of the world. >> Okay. So you've been working like a dog, you've been working hard. I've seen you in China. It's serendipitous. But it's not without being mentioned that this has been great effort by your team and the Linux Foundation and Jim and the whole team. But congratulations. Are you having a pinch me moment? I know it's too early to do a victory lap. >> But you've got to be pretty excited. >> Yeah. It really has been a great thing for the foundation that we sort of accomplished many of our 2018 and 2019 goals this year. But I'm sure we're going to find plenty of stuff to do next year. >> And your goal for the next 6 to 12 months, what's on your top three to-do's, continue the momentum? Share your API for... >> Yeah. What's great is that we really have plenty of members. We'd always like to add new ones and serve the ones we have better. But right now, the focus is really about providing better services to our projects. All of them feel overworked. They would love help on documentation, on marketing, on messaging about it, and some of them need help with testing development and other things. So that's really what we're buckling down on. >> Great community are going to test them, being here on the ground, personally present at creation. And I was standing there with J.J. and Lew Tucker, OpenStack three years ago, talking about Kubernetes. We were kind of ripping. We couldn't have imagined, then, obviously, they bolted it on last year with your event. Now second year here, huge community... >> But you have 4,100 folks here, is more than the previous four events combined. >> Yeah, awesome. >> So it really is exciting. >> TheCUBE, always on the ground. And sometimes the squirrel finds a nut. We found a cloud-native foundation, part of the Linux Foundation. CNCF, Cloud-Native Compute Foundation, really a new, growing, and relevant community for cloud and a new way to do software and reimagine the future from software engineering to full application development, a new way. This is theCUBE's coverage, and we are here live in Austin. More live coverage after this short break. We'll be right back. [Techno Music]