>>Oh, welcome back to the cubes coverage of coop con cloud native con 2021. I'm John is the Cuba, David Nicholson, our cloud host analyst, and it's exciting to be back in person in event. So we're back. It's been two years with the cube con and Linux foundation. So scrape, it was a hybrid event and we have a great guest here, Cuban London, Nick Dirk, and CT field CTO of harness and harness.io. The URL love the.io. Good to see you. >>Thank you guys for having me on. I genuinely appreciate >>It. Thanks for coming on. You were a part of our AWS startup showcase, which you guys were featured as a fast growing mature company, uh, as cloud scales, you guys have been doing extremely well. So congratulations. But now we're in reality now, right? So, okay. Cloud native has kind of like, okay, we don't have to sell it anymore. People buying into it. Um, and now operationalizing it with cloud operations, which means you're running stuff, applications and infrastructure is code and it costs money. Yeah. Martine Casada at Andreessen Horowitz. Oh, repatriated from the cloud. So there's a lot of, there's some cost conversations starting to happen. This is what you guys are in the middle of. >>Yeah, absolutely. What's interesting is when you think about it today, we want to shift left. When you want to empower all the engineers, we want to empower people. We're not giving them the data they need, right. They get a call from the CFO 30 days later, as opposed to actually being able to look at what change I did and how it actually affected. And this is what we're bringing in. Allowing people to have is now really empowering. So throughout the whole software delivery life cycle from CGI continuous integration, continuous delivery feature flagging, and even bringing cost modeling and in cloud cost management. And even then being able to shut down, shut down the services that you're not using, how much of that is waste. We talk about it. Every single cloud conference it's how much is waste. And so being able to actually turn those on, use those accordingly and then take advantage of even the cheapest instances when you should. That's really what >>It's so funny. People almost trip over dollars to pick up pennies in the cloud business because they're so focused on innovation that they think, okay, we've got to just innovate at all costs, but at some point you can make it productive for the developers in process in the pipeline to actually manage that. >>That's exactly it. I mean, if you think about it to me in order to breach state continuous delivery, we have to automate everything. Right. But that doesn't mean stop at just delivering, you know, to production. That means to customer, which means we've got to make them happy, but then ultimately all of those resources in dev and QA and staging and UAT, we've sticker those as well. And if we're not being mindful of it, the costs are astronomical, right. And we've seen it time and time again with every company you see, you've seen every article about how they've blown through all their budgets. So bring it to the people that can affect change. That's really the difference, making it visible, looking at it. In-depth not just at the cloud level and all the spend there, but also even at the, uh, thinking about it, the Kubernetes level down to the containers, the pods and understanding where are the resources even inside of the clusters and bringing that as an aggregate, not just for visibility and, and giving recommendations, but now more importantly, because part of a pipeline start taking action. That's where it's interesting. It's not just about being able to see it and understand it and hope, right? Hope is not a strategy acting upon it is what makes it valuable. And that's part of the automate everything. >>Yeah. We'll let that at the Dawn of the age of DevOps, uh, there was a huge incentive for a developer just to get their job done, to seize control of infrastructure, the idea of infrastructure as code, you know, and it's, it's, you know, w when it was being born, it's a fantastic, I've always wondered though, you know, be careful what you wish for. Do you really want all of that responsibility? So we've got responsibility from a compliance and security perspective and of course cost. So, so where do we, where do we go from here, I guess is the question. Yeah. So >>When we look at building this all together, I think when we think about software delivery, everybody wants to go fast. We start with velocity, right? Everybody says, that's where I want to go. And to your point with governance compliance, the next roadblock to hit is weight. In order to go fast, I have to do it appropriately. I've got governing bodies that tell me how this has to work. And that becomes a challenge. >>It slows it down too. It doesn't, I mean, basically people are getting pissed off, right? This is, this general sentiment is, is that developers are moving fast with their code. And then they have to stop. Compliance has to give the green light sometimes days, correct? Uh, it used to be weeks now. It's days, it's still unacceptable. So there's like this always been that tension to the security groups or say it, or finance was like slow down and they actually want to go faster. So that has to be policy-based something. Yep. This is the future. What is your take on that? >>Take on, this is pretty simple. When everybody talks about people, process and technology, it's kind of bogus, right? It's all about confidence. If you're confident that your developers can deploy appropriately and they're not going to do something wrong, you'll let them to play all the time. Well, that requires process. But if you have tooling that literally guarantees your governance, make sure that at no point in time, can any of your developers actually do something wrong. Now you have, >>That's the key. That's the key. That's the key because you're giving them a policy-based guardrails to execute in their programs >>And that's it. So now you can free up all those pieces. So all those bottlenecks, all those waiting all those time, and this is how all of our customers, they move from, you know, change advisory boards that approve deployments. >>Can you give us some, give us some, give us some, uh, customer anecdotal examples of this inaction and kind of the love letters you get, or, or the customer you take us through a use case of how it all. >>So this is one of my favorites. So NCR national cash register. If you slide a credit card at like a Chick-fil-A or a Safeway, right? Um, traditional technology. But what was interesting is they went from doing PCI audit, which would take seven days to go to a PCI audit right now with harness, because, >>And by the way, when you and the seventh, six day, the things that you did on day one change. >>Exactly, exactly. And so now, because of using harness and everything's audited, and all the changes are, are controlled to make sure that developers again, can only do what they're allowed. They only get to broadcast two per production. If they've met all their security requirements, all their compliance, permits, all their quality checks. Now, because of that, they literally gave a re read only view of harness to their auditor. And in three hours it was over. And it's because now we're that evidence file from code commit through to production. Yeah. It's there for point of sale compliant. >>So what is the benefits to them? What's the result saves them time, saves the money. What's the good, the free up more times. I'll see the chops it down. That's the key. >>Yeah. It's actually something we didn't build in like our ROI calculators, which was, we talked to their engineers and we gave them their nights and their weekends back, which I thought was amazing. But Thursday night, when we're doing that deploy, they don't have to be up. Harness is actually managing and understanding, using machine learning to understand what normal looks like. So they don't have to, they don't have to sit and look at the knock or sit in the war room and eat the free pizza. Yeah. Right. And then when those things break, same concept rates aren't as good. So >>I got to ask you, I got you here. You know, as the software development delivery lifecycle is radically being overhauled right now, which people generally agree that that's the case, the old models are, are different. How do you see your vision around AI and automation playing into this? Because you could say, okay, we're going to have different kinds of coding styles. This batch has got an AI block here. It's very Lego block. Like yep. Okay. Services and higher level services in the cloud. What's your reaction to how this impacts automation and >>Sure. So throughout our entire platform, we've designed our AI to take care of the worst parts of anyone's job as Guinea dev ops person. If they love babysitting deployments, they don't harness handles that for them, ask your engineers that they love sitting there waiting for their tests to run. Every time they build, they go get coffee, right. Because we're waiting for all of our tests to run. Y yeah. Right. The reality >>Is sometimes they have to wait days and >>That's it. But like, if I change the gas cap on, uh, on your car, would you expect me to check every light switch and every electronic piece? No. Well, why do we do that with code? And so our AI, our ML is designed to remove all the things that people hate. It's not to remove people's jobs. It's actually to make their jobs much better. >>How do you guys feed the data? What's the training algorithm for that? How does that work? Yeah, >>Actually, it's interesting. A lot of people think it's going to take a ton of time to figure this out. The good news is we start seeing this on the second deployment. On the second bill, we have to have a baseline of what good looks like, and that's where it starts. And it goes from there. And by the way, this isn't a lot of people say AI, and this AML, I teach a class on this because ML is not standard deviation. It's not some checks. So we use a massive amount of machine learning, but we have neural networks to think about things like engineers do. Like if we looked at a log and I saw the same log with two different user IDs, you and I would know, well, it's the same thing. It's just different users, but machine learning models. Don't so we've got to build neural networks to actually think like humans. So that, >>So that's the whole expectation maximization kind of concept of people talk about, >>Well, and that's it because at the end of the day, we're like I said, I'm not trying to take people's jobs. I want to meet. >>Yeah. You want to do the crap work out of the way. And I had to do other redundant, heavy lifting that they have to do every single time we use the cloud way. We've >>Built mechanical muscle in, in the early 19 hundreds. Right. And it made everyone's jobs easier, allowed them to do more with their time. That's exactly what we're doing here. >>I mean, we've seen the big old guys in the industry trying to evolve. You got the hot startups coming out. So you got, you know, adapt or die as classic thing. We've been saying for many years, David on the cube, you know that. So it's like, this is a moment of truth. We're going to see who comes out the other side. How do you, Nick, what would you be your, your kind of guess of when that other side is, when are we gonna know the winners and the losers truly in the sense of where we are now? >>So I think what I've found is that in this space specifically, there's a constant shift and this is something with software. And the problem is, is that we see them come in ebbs and flows, right. And very few times are there businesses that actually carry the model? And what you find is that when they focus on one specific problem, it solves it. Now, if I was working on VMs a few years ago, great, but now we're, we're here at coop con, right? And that's because it's eaten, uh, that side of the world. And so I think it's the companies that can actually grow the test of time and continue to expand to where the problems are. Right. And that's one of the things that I traditionally think about harness and we've done it. We cover our customers where they were, I think the old mainframes, if you had to, where they were, where they are at their traditional, their VM. >>I mean, if you think about it, Nick, it's one of those things where it's like, that's such a common sense way to look at it evolves with a problem. So I ride the right with tech ways. But if you think about the high order bit, here is just applications. We ended the day. Companies have applications that they want to write modern. The applications of their business is going to be codified so that you just work backwards from there. Then you say, okay, what is the infrastructure as code working for me? That's an ethos of dev ops. And that's where we're at. So that's why I think that the cloud need is kind of one already, but we still have the edge devices, more complexity. This is a huge next level conversation at one point is that we just put a hard and top on the complexity. When is that coming? Because the developers are clear. They want to go fast. They want to go shift left and have all that data, get the right analytics, the telemetry and the AI. But it's too complicated still. That is a big problem. >>It's too complicated. You ask for a full-stack developer to also know infrastructure, to also know edge computing. Like it's impossible, right? And this is where tooling helps, right? Because if you can actually parameterize that and make it to the engineers and have to care, they can do what they're best at. Hey, I'm great at turning code in artifact, let them do that and have tooling take care of the rest. This is where our goal is. Again, allow people >>We'll do what they love. And this is kind of the new roles that are changing. What SRE has done. Everyone talks about the SRE and some states just as he had dev ops guy, but it's not just that there's also, uh, different roles emerging. It's, it's an architectural game. At this point, we would say, >>I'd say a hundred percent. And this is where the decisions that you make on are architecturally. If you don't know how to then roll them out, this is what we've seen. Time and time again, you go to these large companies, I've got these great architectures on planning four years later, we haven't reached it because to that point process, >>The process killed them four >>Different new tools throughout the process. Well, yeah. >>So when do we hit peak Kubernetes peak >>Kubernetes? I think we have a bit to go in and I'm excited about the networking space and really what we're doing there and, and bringing that holistic portion of the network, like when Istio was originally released, I thought that was one of the most amazing things, uh, to truly come to it. And I think there's a vast space in networking. Um, and, and so I think in the next few years, we're going to see this, you know, turn into that a hundred percent utilized across the board. This will be that where everyone's workloads continue to exist. Um, somewhat like VMs we're in >>And, and, and no, no fear of developers as code in the very near future. You're talking about automating the mundane. Correct. Uh, there have been stories recently about the three-day workweek, you know, as a, as a fan of, um, utopian science fiction, myself, as opposed to dystopian. Absolutely. I think that, you know, technology does have the opportunity to lift all boats and, uh, and it's, it's not nothing to be afraid of. You know, the fact that I put my dishes in the dishwasher and they run by themselves for three hours. It's a good thing. It's a great thing. >>I don't need to deal with that. Yeah, I agree. No, I think that's, and that's what I said in the beginning. Right. That's really where we can start empowering people. So allow them to do what they're good at and do what they're best at. And if you look at why do people quit? We don't have to go so hard to find. Yeah. Why? Because they're secondary to babysit and implement and they're told everywhere they go, they're not going to have to >>That's the line. And that's all right. We got a break, but it's great insight to have you on the Q one final question for you. Um, I got to ask about the whole data as code something that I've been riffing on for a bunch of years now. And as infrastructures could we get that, but data is now the resource everyone needs, and everyone's trying to, okay, I have the control plane for this and that, but ultimately data cannot be siloed. This is a critical architectural element. How does that get resolved in the land of the competitive advantage and lock in and whatnot? What's your take on that? >>So data's an interesting one because it has, it has gravity and this is the problem. And as we move, as I think you guys know, as you move to the edge as remove, move it places there's insights to be taken at the edge there's insights to be taken as it moves through. And I think what you'll see honestly, going forward is you'll see compute done differently to your point. It needs to be aggregated. It needs to be able to be used together, but I think you'll see people computing it on its way through it. So now even in transport, you'll start seeing insights gained in real time before you can have the larger insights. And I see that happening more and more. Um, and I think ultimately we just want to empower that >>Nick, great to have you on CTO of field CTO of harness and harness.io is a URL. Check it out. Thanks for the insight. Thank you so much. Great comments. Appreciate it. Natural cube analysts right here, Nick, of course, we've got our, our analysts right here, David Nicholson. You're good on your own. I'm John for a, you know, we have the host. Thanks for watching. Stay with two more days of coverage. We'll be back after this short break.

(upbeat music) >> Live from Las Vegas, it's theCUBE! Covering Informatica World 2019. Brought to you by Informatica. >> Welcome back everyone to theCUBE's live coverage of Informatica World here in Las Vegas. I am your host, Rebecca Knight. We are joined by John Lieto. He is the Director, Data Management at Wolters Kluwer. Thank you so much for coming on the show. >> Very welcome. >> So, Wolters Kluwer is a global provider of professional information, software solutions, tax information. Tell our viewers a little bit more about the company and about your role at the company. >> Yeah, so Wolters Kluwer, I would say probably 20 years ago, was a typical holding company. Has a very long history of publishing in Europe. It's over 185 years old in Europe. But, went on a journey to acquire businesses that were in the services business with a focus on legal, but there are also big concentrations in health divisions, tax and accounting, really a professional company. Very, very, very big in print. What happened over the last 10, 15 years though, it's completely flipped over to digital. In fact, it's been one of the more successful transformations. So now we're mostly in the digital space and electronic space. So where I come in, and my business unit comes in, CT Corporation is a 126-year-old company. Number one player in registered agent services. Legal information, helping companies like Informatica stay in compliance. United States is 50 states with 50 sets of rules, plus international. So typically, companies of any size get a provider. Sometimes their law firms will do it, but a lot of times, it's going to be CT Corporations, things like that. My role in the company, I've been there 19 years, I've had a mix of roles, mostly in the business but a little technical. I'm the Director of Data Management, I am basically in charge of managing governance and data quality for the business. It is focused on the customer right now and all things related to customer, but we're expanding into other domains like vendors, products, suppliers and supporting of pretty large digital transformation. >> So I'm sure in your role you have a lot of practical insights for MDM practitioners but before we go there, I want to hear from you about the customer mindset, I mean, this is a moment for data governance and security... >> Sure >> and privacy, a real inflection point, and like Wolters Kluwer, so many companies undergoing their own digital transformations. How would you describe the customer mindset about all of this? How are customers wrapping their brains around it? >> So for us, we're not in a very regulated business. We touch customers that are heavily regulated, but we're not, we're a service company, right? Most of the stuff, the data we deal with is public knowledge, right? A company's data is public knowledge, you can go in any state website and find out when Informatica was formed, who the board of directors are, so it's all public. But customers are extremely sensitive about where their data is, and what we're doing with it, so we were on top of that, especially for our foreign customers. Internally the CT and Wolters Kluwer we have to be very, very, very customer-focused 'cause it's a very direct service, right? So it's all about the customer. How we got to this point of using Informatica MDM, Massive Data Management, is trying to get close to the customer, trying to understand the customer. Our customers go from J P Morgan to these big, big, big companies that have investments in companies that you wouldn't even know they're related to that customer. So they rely on us to help them stay compliant. How do I deal with these diverse businesses that are under my portfolio, and how do I keep them compliant in the States? So we have all this data and we help our customers understand it, and know what to do next, almost anticipate where they're going to fall out of compliance in the State. >> So what is your advice for the people who are really starting, for the executives starting at square one, trying to think about a master data management solution? >> Yeah, great question. And it's really where the heart of my devotion has been the last year. I would say the most important thing is start with a business case. Understand where your business is going. Make it about what outcomes are you looking for. Really thoroughly understand that. Also take the systems or the subjects that are important to you, your company, and profile it. Understand that data. You can come to an MDM project, a master data management project, with so much knowledge first, don't just say, well everybody is doing master data management, we should do it too. I mean, it might be true, but you're really not going to get the outcomes. And then focus your project to hit those business goals, 'cause MDM is a process and a tool, it's not an answer. You need to use that tool to get to where you are, so for us the number one thing was reduce duplication, okay, MDM tools do that, so we're trying to get to the golden record, okay. Data quality, I don't have the good phone numbers I have bad email addresses, oh, mass data management does that too. So, again, it's going for the outcomes you're driving for, and MDM happens to be a good tool for that. >> So it's really about defining the objectives before you even jump in. >> Absolutely. >> Do you recommend experiments? What's the approach you... >> Wonderful question. In data we call it profiling, right? And you want to go in small wins, because one of the things that will happen to anyone in this space is the business is really not sure about this investment. These days, data is becoming so huge that's becoming a lot easier for guys like me to win a business case, but two years ago it was pretty hard. I'm sorry I just lost my train of thought. >> But that's an interesting point, just talking about the overcoming the skepticism within these companies to latch on to this idea, and as you were saying, the announcing the small wins, really getting everyone on board. >> Thank you. What we did is, we had profiled, found a problem, oh, we have definitive cost duplication, we've got email addresses that are completely bogus. Let's just to take those two. And we did small little pilots. We'd use tools we had, completely manual ad-hoc, let's fix 200 records, let's take a really important customer that we're trying to onboard, or expand, and let's fix that data, and then show the outcomes. Go for the quick wins. Communicate, communicate, communicate. Once we did that, and we did a series of, I want to say, 30 or 40 of these. That built our requirement set. We built the requirement set by doing. It was so easy that way to show victories, but too, to really get the requirements to a point where we could build the system. We happened to fall on that method, from prior learnings of not doing well on projects that had nothing to do with MDM. So for this one, I think the other piece of advice that I would give folks, is we built a data management team of business analysts that know our business and data. It is really critical that you keep this function out of IT. IT is your supporter and your partner. This does not go to IT. So we know our data. I have a guy on my team that's 45 years in the company, a woman who's 28 years in the company, just for example. So we can do a lot without a tool, and what's happening is now we are live for going on eight months now, and we're staying on top, making sure the tool's delivering what it's supposed to deliver, based on our deep knowledge. >> And I think that what you're talking about really, is introducing this technology and this new way of thinking, and it's really all about change management. >> It truly is. >> One of the things that we're talking a lot here in theCUBE about is the skills gap, and this is a problem throughout the technology industry. How big a problem is it for you at Wolters Kluwer? And what are you doing to make sure that you have the right technical talent on your team, and as we're saying, not just the technical talent but also the understanding of the business? >> One thing to understand is Wolters Kluwer is a fairly big company, and we as a company are just starting this journey. I have a small data management team in one business unit at Wolters Kluwer. There's another business unit within our health division that has data management, and that's all that I know of that is a formal data management. That's pretty small, so it's just beginning. What we're doing, we're trying to communicate, communicate, communicate. I am having some success because in our next huge journey, which is a digital transformation, a six-year project, data now is center. I've been asked to actually be the business sponsor for the data track, which, two years ago, that would not have happened. So I take that as a win, but you make a fair point, skills and understanding, both at the business and technical level is always a challenge, and it's justifying bringing in that skill set. No we can just outsource that, or we'll just use a consultant. I'm right now fighting a battle to bring in a data architect, full-time, they don't understand that... >> Just that role. >> You have to architect things. We've now done that, so what you have, because I' doing the data governance piece right now, and what I'm finding is, it's not the Wild West, but you can't always know what the parts of the organization is doing, and a lack of an architect is not keeping all the plumbing all centralized. So, a I build this data governance, I'm going to centralize data definitions and data glossary, data catalog, but I'm going to be looking around and going, okay, how do I actually have the technology piece architected correctly and that's the piece I'm really trying to pump, so hopefully when we build this data layer we're building my goal is to prove to the business that you need to fill this role. It's not me, it's going to be someone who really is deep, deep, deep in architecture. >> Hire a contractor, get that small win. >> That's what we're doing. (laughing) >> And then, the proof. I learned that from you, John. >> I'm actually in the process of just doing that. >> Excellent! >> One of those vendors is here. >> Well, we'll look forward to talking to you next year and hearing an update. >> Yeah, there you go. >> John Lieto, thank you so much for coming on theCUBE. >> You're very welcome, thank you. >> I'm Rebecca Knight, we will have more of theCUBE's live coverage of Informatica World. Stay tuned! (upbeat musing)

>> Live from Mountain View, California. It's The Cube. Covering, DevNet Create 2019. Brought to you by Cisco. >> Hi welcome to The Cube. Lisa Martin with John Furrier. We are live, at Cisco DevNet Create 2019 in Mountain View at Computer History Museum. John this is the third DevNet Create, but DevNet started as this ground, small sort of grass roots out of Cisco Live, about five years ago now. You and I just came from the keynote, which I think is really awesome to highlight that it was kicked off by two, strong female leaders in technology, who will be on our program this week. I'd love to get your perspectives on what you saw and heard today, knowing the history of DevNet as you do. >> Yeah you mentioned strong leaders, Susie Wee has been promoted to Senior Vice President and CTO of DevNet and DevNet Create. Two communities and that's been a really an interesting ride because she's gotten real technical jobs but adds a good business acumen and saw the wave early on. I remember I met Susie Wee at I'd say almost seven years ago, in and around Palo Alto. She always had that energy, but she's super technical, great business mind. She saw the open source wave and cloud connecting. And then when she came to Cisco with DevNet, she took that open source kind of mojo, and took the developer communities, which were very centric, Cisco, plumbing, moving packets from point a to point b, configuring large scale networks to much more of a developer focus. And she's evolved that program and started DevNet create three years ago to bring in the cloud native, used to be called the hoodie crowd, you know the people who are coding in the cloud. Cloud first, and she she wanted to cross pollinate them together with DevNet. And the result of that experiment or that that kind of mechanism and community collaboration has changed the face of CisCo. >> Absolutely. >> You can see Chuck Robbins as the Ceo and others within Cisco, seeing that they're on this new wave and it's actually paying off dividens for them, it's changed their strategy, customers like it, the community has grown, the metrics are all kind of up in to the right, on terms of adoption. So, success from that experiment, their doubling down and their bringing real technology, real workshops, a real co-creation, a real community vibe and it's working. So again don't fix what's not broken. >> In terms of their community, one of the things that Susie mentioned this morning is that the DevNet community's now over 585 000 members strong. They talk about this, yes it's a conference but it's also, it's a strong community, it's hands on learning. It's code and the theme of the event: See it. Learn it. Code it. They did a great job only in the first hour of the keynote about actually showing some great examples and also how to your point, Cisco is evolving. Digitally, IT transformation and how they are really staying quite far ahead of their competition. >> It's interesting because you know, one of the things that we've been doing in theCUBE for 10 years, we seen a lot of trends come and go. This one we like a lot. We use the term builders creators, Andy Jassy used that term builders. That's what they talk about this new era of this renaissance of value creators. They're building stuff and with now Cloud Computing and with now AI and other things coming to the table, there's an unlimited tool set out there and platforms with and computing cloud cloud computing, you can now build things faster. So conceiving it, understanding and building it is critical. Now what's interesting about DevNet Create is that they're bringing in that again, that community vibe where, it's not just a bunch of hackathons and a bunch of rah rah, use our code and get developers locked into a platform. It's authentically and genuinely ripe, meaningful to the developers because they do it in a group setting. They do it with community. So the have, they do have hackathons, they've got creation tools, they've got different stations and they roll out the toys if you will. Meraki has things going on here, there's all this new technology. So Cisco's bringing the goods to the party. It's like I always say, when someone brings beer to the party, you know and we're going to have some good times. So they're bringing the technology and the tools in to the community without kind of jamming it down their throat. That creates a good vibe. That's cross-pollinating to the core Cisco with DevNet, and every year that DevNet's section within Cisco Live becomes the number one place everyone goes to because that's where the feedback is and the company's listening. And this is part of their fly wheel. So this is a game changer for Cisco because their culture was pretty much build networks, run them, lock'em down, highly secure. Everything's good but now the world's changed. They want programmability and this again, changes the culture of Cisco. So I think it's a great move and I love this, I love the vibe here and this event's popular because, there's engineers here. So you have people who are savvy with code, savvy with community and savvy with building and creating and being creators. So design thinking to hackathons to any workshop you can imagine. >> And there's engineers here to your point of all, and Susie's point to have all levels of all ages. And I'm always curious about the engineers and the folks who've been in an institution for a very long time and are very use to working in that traditional model. How do they get access to the right education tools, to start shifting their own mindset, because really, in this day and age, they don't have a choice. Whether they want to continue working at a company like a Cisco or any other company these days that has to be a tech company. So you see all levels of coding experience here. They provide education for that. You also see all levels of of the veterans, those in their early stages of their career. Those in their mid-careers. So a lot of collaboration in this community. >> And the CEO Chuck Robbins points out and always kind of gives Susie Wee call outs, because even though developer.cisco.com is the destination that you can go to learn. Go to developer.cisco.com to get kind of the goods. That's from Cisco's perspective. But what Susie and Chuck have recognized is that, the real action is out in the organic community. So the co-creation, the learnings. This is where the canary and the coal mines are. This is where, companies are getting early feedback on products. This is where peers are starting to figure out what's right. So if companies listen to their community, not just provide the goods and have, some destination urls to go to, to get onboarded. The action is in the organic communities. That's where people are developing friendships. That's where discovery's happening. People are learning and that's where the action's at. So Cisco's actually listening. So this is an interesting change for Cisco. >> And it seems like, to your point on the listening, it's almost becoming the lifeblood of Cisco and really giving them this fuel and momentum >> Yeah >> To allow any type of industry. The SVP and CT, I think CTO of Meraki was saying, we don't build specific solutions for specific verticals. This is for all types of verticals, because every industry has to transform and become a tech company. But this community really seems like it's, I don't want to say a rebirth of Cisco but it almost feels somewhat something similar, but really that lifeblood of this transforming organization. >> Well one of the things that's not going to be on, on the financial analysis in the, when you look at the 10 k's and all the Wall Street guys are going to go sprint got the numbers and look at the, the financial analysis. Try to figure out where the stock's going to be. But if you at what's going on with Cisco. If they can continue to do what they're doing. If they convert their core developers in DevNet and allow this cross-pollination and with cloud computing. You're going to start to see product transformations happen faster. You're going to start to see business results that aren't reflected at any kind of performer or forecasted financial analysis. And this is going to put pressure on Cisco. Cisco is under a lot of pressure and this old school guard managers at Cisco, are like 'no the data center, we got to hold down' and so, if you don't, if Cisco doesn't cannabilize itself by bringing in the new, faster. That's the trick of the management. This is Chuck Robbin's hardest job as the CEO. It's to understand when to start cannabilizing pre-existing businesses like data center servers, UCS and have them change over to a scalable revenue model on the cloud side. So they're in a transition. I think they're in good shape. The wave they're on is positive, but the real upside to this is, if they can convert those network engineers into coders. They would have an army of awesome, talented people setting and building out the next generation data centers to cloud computing architecture and serp. Strategic strike if they can pull it off and they continue to do it. That's what we're going to be watching. >> Well we're about six weeks or so I think, before Cisco Live, which is down in San Diego. The Cube will be there. >> Yeah. >> What are you thinking, you gave a pretty good, kind of your perspectives and what you're thinking. What are some of things that you think we're going to hear and see and feel and learn from Cisco Live ? >> I think we'll hear some more of the same of what we're seeing and hearing when we start Cisco Live. I still think that Cisco's got some internal re-organizations to do to get on this wave. There's an article in Fortune magazine this week, talking about the rise and fall of Kleiner Perkins. And the thesis was there on the wrong way, missed two generations of investments. Cisco right now has to decide what wave they're going to be riding in to the future. That's Chuck Robbins' strategic imperative, and I think we're going to start to see more and more of the Cisco ship turning to get on the wave of cloud, cloud native, hybrid cloud and I think multi-cloud is probably the biggest opportunity that Cisco has and I think in bringing multi-cloud as a multiple network, multiple programmable network. That to me is a wave worth riding. The question is, when doe he time the revenue? When doe the whole ship just go full steam ahead? I think it's still going to be in transition, but we'll probably hear more, more DevNet. More DevNet Create, more programmable networks, more use of data. A lot of multi-cloud. >> Yeah and there's, this year there are three tech tracks. One on Enterprise Transformation which is, something that we'll talk about with our guests over the next two days. And then we've got, businesses have real-time data access. AI, machine learning, infrastructures that are programmable. Now how are, what are the tools and the trends, that enterprises are using to generate business insights that actually drive outcomes. >> Yeah so I think that all these tracks kind of point to big high level pillar trends that I think Cisco has to really nail and I think, they have clear sight for this. They just got to put the wheels on the bus and get the bus rolling. And that is three areas. Application modernization. So renaissance and application development. So you're seeing a new kind of app developer emerging. We hear about that all the time. You know these guys want infrastructure's code. Those app developers are going to be coming in to the enterprise in a large scale, and they can either be hybrid and multi-cloud orient. So application modernization. A renaissance in applications. Cisco has to be on that and they got AppDynamics for that and a variety of other cool things. Hybrid and multi-cloud, absolutely is going to be the architecture for enterprises and third area is security. Those are the things I think, if Cisco could nail those three things. They would be well positioned. And they got to bring the tech to the table and their product leadership. So that to me I think that's, I think we're going to see a lot of that at Cisco Live and that's I think the core plan. >> Well we'll be listening for that over the course of the next two days. John and I are fortunate to be here for today and tomorrow with a spectrum of guests, from Cisco folks, DevNet folks, partners, users of the technology and members of, active members of the DevNet community. So John looking forward to being here the next two days. >> It's been great. >> Sick around >> John and I are going to be right back from Cisco DevNet Create 2019 with our first guest. (soft upbeat music)

>> Narrator: Live from Las Vegas It's The Cube covering Adobe Summit 2019 brought to you by Adobe. >> Hello everyone, welcome back to The Cube's live coverage here in Las Vegas for Adobe Summit 2019. I'm John Furrier with Jeff Frick. Our next guest is Jason Woosley, Vice President of Commerce Product and Platform for Adobe, part of the big keynote display this morning and news on the announcement of the Commerce Cloud, formerly Magento. Congratulations. Welcome to The Cube. >> Hey, thanks so much for having me. It's great to be here. >> Love the commerce angle because now that's a big part of a journey, people buy stuff. >> Absolutely. >> That's the most important, one of the most important parts. >> So when you think about an experience end to end, right it culminates hopefully in a transaction, and that's one of the pieces that makes the Magento acquisition fit so well into the Adobe family. We actually kind of finished that last mile of the transition getting to actual ownership. >> You know, I love this event because it feels a little like Woodstock, as Steve Lucas said on stage because you've got the best of big data all the intoxicating conversations and discussions. You get the best of the cloud, all the geek stuff under the hood. >> Oh, yeah. >> Then you've got the applications which are super relevant. So, it's really kind of, I love the content, love that you guys are in the middle of, I think, a great wave of innovation coming. But if you look at the big picture, you're seeing the same kind of themes, latency, relevance. I mean, these are tech terms used on your product in commerce a lot different than other things. So, you start to see these geek terms kind of weaving into this new cloud. >> I think you're really starting to see a convergence of some of the terminology and what really matters and that's the customer experience, right. It's really about answering what the customer wants and getting that is, that's the magic. >> It's accepting the fact that it's a disjointed journey. I love the journey conversation but it's not the straight pipe like it used to be. You're in and out, you're looking on a website, you're jumping over from a tweet, you know, there's so many kind of in's and out's, in's and out's, in's and outs before you get to that buy. >> And consumers are so sophisticated now, right. I mean they absolutely take advantage of all of those channels and that's why it's so important for merchants who are trying to be relevant. You've got to be present at every point where your customers are and it's a tough thing to do because there's just a proliferation of channels, I mean, you know, we've got digital kiosks, we've got buy online pick up in store, all these omnichannels operations coming together now. So it becomes even more important for merchants to make that investment and make sure that not only are they at the place where their customers are but they're there with a relevant and personalized message. >> Jason, I've got to ask you a question. I bring this up in a lot of these kind of user experience conversations. When you have new things coming on the market that are hard to operationalize out of the gate. It takes some time. We're starting to see that with you guys that built the platform. People are starting to operationalize new capabilities. But on the consumer side, the user side, expectations become the new experience. It's kind of a cliche in the tech world. What are some of those experiences that you're seeing that's becoming the new expectations. To your point about, the old way, I can smell a marketing funnel a mile away. I'm trying to buy something and all this other distractions that are not relevant to me are there. So you start to see some frustration but now users expect something new. What is that expectation that's converting it to experience? >> It's across the board and expectation are sky high, right. And it seems like every time we see something innovative you think about Amazon Prime, right, two day shipping. That was crazy back in the day and now, two day shipping is considered standard shipping, right. If you wanna be fast, you're doing same day. And that kind of, it's so hard to keep up with that pace of innovation and it happens all over the place. It's not just in logistics. People are expecting to be able to take advantage of omnichannel operations, right. Millennials especially. 60% of them really prefer to be able to have a tangible interaction with the product before they buy it. But they still want to buy online. So now they do buy online pick up in store or click and collect, they call it in Europe. And it's just become a huge fad. We've seen a 250% increase of the largest retailers of buy online pick up in store in the last year. Absolutely crazy. >> It's pretty wild when Best Buy gets on stage and says, we're not a brick and mortar retailer. (laughing) >> It actually changes the game, right. What else is interesting though is these brick and mortars that have an online presence, they actually have a distinct advantage because of that tangibility, right. You've got the opportunity to do all of your shopping online but you've also got a place to go do showcasing and actually interact with some of those especially more high tech tools. >> Right. >> You guys have been out front on the Magento side. We covered your event last year for the acquisition. And a couple things popped out at me that I want to get your reaction to now. One is obviously the role of the community. But as you started getting into the cloud kind of play the economics are changing, too, right. So you have community, economics and then large scale. These are new table stakes. So what's your reaction to that? How is Adobe and how are your customers adjusting to this new normal? Your thoughts on this shift? >> Yeah, I think that they adjust faster than we expect them to. It's really interesting because as you see these demands for things like cloud operations. Really, that's taking a whole set of responsibilities away from the merchant and allowing a single vendor to provide that as a service and we're seeing that again and again, right. This service based economy that's just becoming much, much more prevalent. What it means for our community and I'm glad you brought that up because our commerce community is the largest in the world, it's highly engaged. We have a tremendous amount of participation from those guys. And they're actually helping lead the way. They help merchants feel good about adopting new technologies. They're also incredibly innovative and they take our product and do things that we would never have thought of. >> They provide product feedback, too, the developers, that creates a nice fly wheel. >> It is a great fly wheel. >> It's a great use case. Congratulations, you guys done some nice work there. >> Oh, thanks, thanks. >> And Adobe's certainly gonna get the benefits of that. The other question I wanna ask you is something I noticed on digital over the years is that, it's gotten more prevalent now that everyone's connected. You know, the old days of buying tech. Let's buy this great project, we'll build it out and multiple year payback and everyone nerds out. It's like a project and they have fun doing it. And then, like, what was the value. When the value today is about money. When people lose money, the friction, all those other kinds of coolness, the shiny new toy, it goes away. >> Yeah, it falls away. >> You're in the middle of that. You see more of that now. People whose businesses are on the line. Security breach or revenue. >> Jason: Yeah. >> I mean, the optimization around the new way just goes right to the problem right there. >> The very best way to tackle that is an iterative experimental way. You've go to be able to make small bets. Learn from those bets and then pivot. This concept that we can take an idea, go into our back rooms and code it for three years and come back out with something that meets the market, it's a fallacy. It's never gonna work, right? So you've gotta start delivering shippable increments much faster, smaller pieces and then make sure that you've got that feedback loop closed so that you can actually respond to your customers. >> Jeff: Right, the other piece which you just talked on briefly but I wanna unpack it in reference to what you just said, two big words. Open source and ecosystem. >> Jason: Yeah. >> And as you said, you can't just go in the back room. Even if you knew the product, you can't necessarily go in the back room and build it yourself. >> Jason: Yeah. >> Fundamentally, believe that not all the experts are in your four walls and that there's, by rule, a lot more outside and leveraging that capability is really a game-changer. >> Yeah, absolutely, I mean, we have three hundred thousand developers that call themselves Magento engineers and don't take a paycheck from Adobe. It's phenomenal what they're able to do and they help us move very, very quickly. We saw last year when the Amazon patent expired for one-click checkout on the day that it expired one of our community members created a pool request that made every Magento store able to take advantage of it. >> John: They were probably waiting right there on that clock. >> Oh no, they were waiting. (John laughing) Because the licensing fees were extortion. >> That's innovation. >> It is. >> That's our example of community driven innovation. >> And that's a great place to go get that, right. Within your four walls, you've got lots of expertise but you always end up with some blinders on. We've got profit margins to go chase. We've got all kinds of good business things to go do. The community, however, completely unfettered. They've got the ability to go try all kinds of cool stuff. >> Two questions on that thread. One is community. A lot of people try the buzzword. Hey, let's get a community. You can't buy a community. You've got to earn it. Talk about that dynamic and then talk about how Adobe's reacted to Magento's community because Adobe's pretty open. >> Yeah. >> They're creatives. I don't think they'd be anti-community. They have developers. They got a bunch of community themselves. So, community, buying a community versus earning it, and then the impact of Magento's community to Adobe. >> You cannot buy it. 100% you cannot buy a community. And you have to deserve it. And really, you have to think about yourselves as custodians of a community rather than, I mean, we're members. We used to have this saying, we are Magento. Everybody inside Magento, in the ecosystem, our partners, our developers. Everybody is part of that solution so trying to own it, trying to exert control over it, it's a recipe for not having it at all, right. So you have to be very cautious and it really is a custodianship. It's an honor and it's a privilege and you have to kind of take it seriously. >> If you get it right, the benefits are multi-fold. >> That's exactly it. >> Now, Adobe, obviously they have, we heard and we see that they're open to that and working with it. >> Adobe has been terrific and it was, I think, one of the biggest fears from our community as acquisition unfolded was hey, Adobe, big corporate company not a lot of open source projects. They've got some but their core isn't about open source and what was gonna happen to our community as we came in. It's been absolutely terrific because Adobe has been absolutely investing and making sure that we continue to be terrific custodians of this community and in fact, they're trying now to expand that community to the rest of their products. They would love to have our community members that are able to go out and innovate so rapidly, do so across the entire Adobe portfolio. >> Well, it's interesting, too. If you have a platform play in the cloud scale and some of these cross functional connection tissue points that's recipe for robust ecosystem development. >> Exactly. >> Because they means there's white space, there's opportunities to build on top of. That's a platform. >> Right, and you will see innovation and ingenuity from that you'll never expect. It's just phenomenal. >> So I'm curious to get your take on a specific feature I wanna dive into which is dynamic pricing. Right, hotels have been doing dynamic pricing forever. You give the authorization to the kid working at the front counter if it's 11 o'clock, you got a open room take whatever walks in the door. >> Jason: Yeah. >> To the airline, it's got very sophisticated but most companies haven't really be able to excuse dynamic pricing. Just curious, when you bring in capabilities that you get now with the Adobe suite and the data now that you have around the customer and the data that you now have around the context, I mean, are we gonna see much better execution of things like dynamic pricing. >> We're gonna see democratization of a lot of those things that were typically reserved to the very, very big industries, right. I think you're looking at airlines, they did a great job. But they invested hundreds of millions of dollars into systems to go do that. Now, with things like Sensei and artificial intelligence our machine learning capabilities, we can actually bring those capabilities to small merchants and everyday folks to go out and do those experiments with your pricing and understand where you have elasticity and where you don't. Once you have that information, you're making much better decisions across the board for your business. >> And that's actually the benefits of the Magento platform and scale that you have. So the question is, as you guys continue to get this cloud scale going, what are some of the platforms priorities for you guys? What product areas you looking at? What white spaces are gonna leap for the ecosystem? Can you share a little insight into what you guys are thinking? >> Yeah, I mean, one, we try to open everything to the ecosystem. There's really not a lot of advantage for us to have anything that's super closed off and secret sauce. We try to make sure that everything is available and so what you'll see is investments in things like SDK's. An SDK is software development kit basically lets you use any language, any tool that you're comfortable with to go ahead and integrate, extend and contribute to our core capabilities. You'll see us continue to invest in making sure that everybody that wants to participate has a very, very easy path to do so. >> And in terms of the developer program, you mention SDK, what's your impression of that? Can you give an update? We're not really familiar with that much, we're learning Adobe. What do you guys have for developer programs within Adobe? >> Well, it is terrific. We have a project called Adobe I/O that actually does a terrific job at sort of standardizing the API and interfaces between all of the different components within the digital experience suite. So, you'll continue to see us investing in that. Certainly, commerce is gonna start participating in that Adobe I/O model and that's going to make it even more broadly available to these great folks. >> Even one of the things we had on The Cube today was a historic moment. We been doing this for 10 years, hundreds of shows a year. We had our first guest on, one of your customers from Metlite. His title was Marketing CIO and I'm like, okay. He's part of the global technology operations team of Metlite. But I think the bigger story there is that we think we'll be a bigger trend than just one-off. We think, we're seeing the connection between the IT world, data, developers, applications coming together where marketing is like a CIO. >> And it's exactly right. We look at the CMO and the CIO as two sides of the same coin. And more often than not they have the same objectives. They're coming at it from a slightly different perspective and so you really do end up having to marry the message so that it resonates not only with the IT folks and usually that's about cloud processes, ease of use, ease of deployment, low cost operation and then on the marketing side it's really about feature availability and visual merchandising and being able to bring their great products to life. >> And an interesting quote, he said, what's it like, to be a marketing CIO, share to others who might to be that. He goes, well, I'm kind of a matchmaker and a translator. (laughing) >> I think that's pretty good a way to put it. Yeah, that makes good sense. >> He puts projects together, translating jargon to business benefits. Emphasis was on the business. You got to know the business. We had Dollar Shape Club on earlier, another one of your Adobe's customers. They were like, no, we need to know the business. It's about the data, data processing, the data systems, business. It has to be blended. It's the art and science of business and technology. >> Yeah, the only get that right when you put the customer right in the middle. You have to build all of those business processes and all of those systems around what that customer's looking for. >> So I'm just curious, Jason, what's changed over the last couple of years, 'cos we've been talking about the 360 view of the customer since, I don't when, but a while. >> A while, yeah. >> And we've been talking about omnichannel marketing and touching the customer for a while but it seems like we've hit a tipping point. Maybe I'm misreading the tealeaves but you know, what are the kind of critical factors that are making that much more a reality than just talk it was a couple years back? >> Well, on omnichannel, we're certainly seeing a maturity, an understanding of what it takes to do omnichannel. It's not just a commerce operation. omnichannel actually stretches back into your supply chain. To be able to really think about the way you deliver to customers as a single channel. Your supply chain has to be highly flexible. Your logistic capabilities have to be extremely flexible and they have to be able to tuned for the things that are important to your customers. Either speed of delivery or cost of delivery. All of those kinds of things. In the omnichannel space, I think we're finally starting to see the maturity of, okay, how do we make these things real. And that's critically important. And the other one. >> 360, 360 view of the customer. >> 360 view of the customer. Almost the same thing there, right. We're finally seeing the technology start to catch up and the big challenge there was we always had one view or the other. You either had a behavioral view of your customer, how they interact with your content. Or you had this great transactional view, the dollar and cents behind a relationship. Now, we're starting to see companies especially like Adobe, that have made these incredible investments to bring those two houses of data together, and that really starts to tell the full story. Again, going back to that customer journey, you need to be able to observe that entire journey in order to make those kinds of decisions. >> Jason, I wish we had more time. I wanna get one more question. I know we might wanna break here. Maybe we can follow up as a separate conversation in Palo Alto. You know, having a digital footprint you hear that buzzword, I'll get a digital footprint out there. It makes a lot of sense but a world that has been dominated by silos, it's hard to have footprint when you have siloed entities. So, in your mind, your reaction between something that's foundational and then data silos. Maybe silos could be okay at the app level but what's the foundational footprint? I mean, foundation's everything. >> Jason: It is. >> Without a foundation, you clearly can't build on. >> Yeah, and we talked a little bit about the Adobe experience platform this morning. Eric Shantenu and Anje will come on and talk about, we've got this amazing capability now to really take that data, standardize it and make it available for all kinds of systems and processes. And I think that's where you're going to see the real foundation for all of these siloed efforts. It's gonna be in this kind of common data understanding, what they call a XDM. >> And customers got silos, too. They've got agencies. All kinds of things out there. >> Absolutely. >> Data everywhere. Jason, thanks for coming on. We really appreciate it. >> Hey, guys, I really appreciate it. Thanks so much. >> Jason Woosley on The Cube here at Adobe Summit 2019. I'm John Furrier. Day one of two days of wall-to-wall live coverage. Stay with us for more coverage after this short break. (electronic music)

>> From the Aria resort in Las Vegas. It's the Cube! (upbeat music) Covering AWS Marketplace. Brought to you by Amazon Web Services. Hey, welcome back everybody. Jeff Frick here with the Cube. We're at AWS Reinvent 2018. I don't know how many people are here, 60 000, 70 000, your guess is as good as mine. I'm sure we'll get an official number shortly. We're kicking things of here. Three days of coverage. Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, that's four days. We're at the AWS Marketplace and Service Catalog Experience here at the Aria. We're excited to be kicking stuff of with Rajeev Dutt. He is making AI that makes AI. We're going to get into it. He is the CEO president and co-founder of DimensionalMechanics. Rajeev, great to see you. >> It's great to meet ya. >> How many Reinvents have you been to? >> This would actually be my second. >> You're second? >> My second. Yeah, it's like- it's- I always feel really energized after coming here. It's like- last year was like heavy AI centered. >> Right, right. >> It was just really all these sessions in AI was really exciting. >> Let's get in to it for the folks that aren't familiar with DimensionalMechanics. What are you guys all about? >> So DimensionalMechanics is about lowering the bar for entry like to most people. So that's kind of our first focus. Our second focus is to make sure that deployment strategies allow you to deploy across any end device. So it's basically intended to be a complete end-to-end capability. >> Around AI? >> Around AI. >> The Artificial Intelligence. >> The Artificial Intelligence. >> Yeah, yeah, yeah. >> Most important part. >> Okay. >> Yeah, so, it's about reducing the bar for entry for Artificial Intelligence so that anybody without even a machine learning background can build very sophisticated models on our platform. In sometimes as little as 14 lines of code. It's just incredibly easy. We've had high school students use us, we've had university professors, who have nothing to do with AI, use us without any problems. And, really the way we do that is that we have an AI that we call the Oracle. We are all Matrix fans. (Jeff laughs) And so what this- the Oracle does is it has a vast knowledge base, has a lot of additional machine learning components and things like that. That essentially allow it adapt and learn based on the kind of problem you're trying to solve. So, every time it solves the same problem, it gets better and better at what it's doing. >> So, so, um... Is it, is it libraries, is it pre-configured, are there specific type of application that it works better on? What's kind of your go to market? >> So basically, think about AI studio as a full server application. So it, what you essentially do- we created our own language called the NeoPulse Modeling language. And the NeoPulse Modeling language, think about it as sort of the SQL for Artificial Intelligence. It does a lot of very complicated things in just a couple of lines. So essentially what you do is you compile it on the machine so when you write the NML code, the NeoPulse Modeling language code. You compile it on the machine, it looks at your data which is sitting in a bucket. It starts training the model. Once the model is ready, you can export the model as a PIM object, so Portable Inference Model object which is one of our creations. And that allows you then to deploy it on to any end target as long as it's running on runtime. And on runtime can be basically sitting in the cloud or on a device. Sometimes we're also looking at right down to FPGA kind of device levels as well. So, extremely low power devices as well as cloud computing, but gives you that flexibility, but it also, which is really important, it makes AI accessible. So anybody without like any background in it- My wife is a radiologist and she's actually looking at using it for her own internal usage... >> And how much do you have to learn? You have to learn the NeoPulse language, right? >> The NML language is really easy to learn. So we had a high school student who spent about a week learning it and so a week later she was ready to start coding and she has built her first models using that. And the way it does that is that you actually, we have a keyword auto inside NML which is context aware, and so when the compiler sees auto it goes out to the Oracle and says hey, I've seen- this person needs help building an architecture or figuring out what function to use or what hyperparameters to use and so on and so on. And the Oracle will come back and say hey, use this architecture, use these hyperparameters, use these settings or functions or these optimizations in your model and... >> So is that doin' that when I'm setting up the model in the first place to give me directions or is looking at the model once I've spun it a couple times and saying wait, this looks like one of these, maybe you should do some of this. >> So what it will look at is your data. So it will actually look in to your data, the type of data, how much data you have, the kind of problem you're trying to solve, how many, for example, if it's a classification problem, how many classes you have, and all of that basically determines the kind of model that it will use. You can also specify the level of complexity that you're interested in, like, are you interested in a very simple model, a complex model, is over fitting a risk at all It will determine all these things behind the scenes >> Right, right. >> based on the kind of problem that you're trying to solve. And the first time it solves it, it will give you a pretty good answer. It's usually very good, but then the second time you solve it or a third time you solve it, it gets better and better and better, because it's able to learn from its mistakes. So, and eventually it gets really good at its job so. >> But it's still, but it's a still a model that I built for that application. You're not drawing kind of pre-configured models down from the Oracle. >> No no, you're basically training it from scratch. >> Right. >> It's entirely intended for custom models. So companies that are- have highly customized data, like radiology or for example, looking at wind stress patterns like in polarized light and stuff like that. So things that are not normally covered by the standard image recognition and so, using things like transfer learning or fine tuning doesn't help in this particular case because if you've trained a model in dogs and cats then like, training it to recognize stress patterns, is just not- >> It's not going to work. >> It's not going to work. >> So you got to prepare for your interviews, looking through your website. You list a really dramatic example of where using your guys technology was like, I don't know, a tenth of the price >> Yes, yeah. >> And I think one month versus six. >> Yeah. >> I wonder if you could share some couple examples that, you know, people are putting this to use. >> Okay, so, we have actually a few. So one of them is with a company. They're focused on kind of a resume matching, so we built them- they were initially quoted by another company at around 450 000 and they were warned that they would not be able to exceed 40% accuracy given the data that they had. We managed to get to about 83/84% accuracy for about under 10 000. So that was like a huge huge reduction. Then the second one was just recently, another company had been spending quite a bit of time and resources on building out a technology to measure heart rate. We were able to look at that and produce, instead of spending like their 20 000 a month or so, we could bring it down to 4000 in total. So these are the kind of sort dramatic reductions in cost that our platform can offer. Stanford University, another great example. These are physicians that we're working with. None of them have any engineering background like, for them, Linux is in itself- That was the hardest thing for them to do was to get used to Linux and so once they start building on our platform it was like they actually built a model that was good enough that they were able to publish at the RSNA, which is like one of the biggest radiology conferences in the world. In this case it was for Pet CT, which is a three-dimensional model because there's a three-dimensional image if you will >> Okay. >> of the human body and so was able to determine whether somebody had a tumor or not and I think they mananged to get, with a very limited data set, about 74/75% accuracy and this was actually at Stanford, so it's a pretty, pretty big name. >> Right. So, Rajeev we're here at AWS Marketplace Experience. You're still a relatively small company. I think you said you had a good size C round, gettin' ready to go out and get a decent A round. >> Right. >> What does it mean to work with a company like Amazon? I mean, as a small company, just to get, just to get an approved vendor set up at Stanford, probably not an easy thing, right. There's all kinds of legal Ts and Cs. >> Exactly. >> As a startup their always worried about whether you're going to be around tomorrow. >> Exactly. >> So your part doin' AWS, so how's that been workin' with AWS and the Marketplace . >> Well firstly, it's definitely given us the Amazon backing in a way, so when people see you're on AWS, they see that connected to you, that automatically gives them a little bit more confidence. >> They vetted you so you must be good. >> Exactly, exactly. And the second is that it gives access to a market that we otherwise wouldn't have had like, if I'm thinking about like producing software that you have to download on our website, that's a very very limited market. You have to attract people to your website and so on and so on. Now it's like we're on the Amazon- there's a machine learning hub on AWS. We're on that, so which means that when people search for machine learning, our name does come up. >> Right, right >> It means it's very easy to launch. You don't have to worry about setting up a machine, worrying about how to configure it. Everything is done automatically, makes life really easy. >> Right. >> On top of that, the AWS team has been- the Marketplace team has been really extremely helpful connecting us with end customers. So very often they will refer people to us. In fact, one of our largest customers came through an AWS referral, so for us it's been nothing but a win-win. >> Right. What about the potential downside? Not to rain on the parade but the old joke used to be if you're a start-up makin' widgets, you know, you just got your first order with Walmart the good news. Bad news is you just got your first order with Walmart. That's opening up a huge global distribution opportunity, I mean in theory, you know, say you got a 1000 customers tomorrow, that might be a little bit of a challenge. >> Yeah, so we actually are starting to hit that. So, we- so our version two was really our go to market version and- which came out earlier this year, and so we've been trying to like wrap up the sales on that side and literally in the last three months. It's like I have not been home for six weeks now because I've been in the far East and traveling and, it' like- because of this heavy customer interaction at this point. So we have a very good story to tell the investors now, like, this has also helped with the investments rounds that we're actually looking at. So we have a very good story to tell the investors that you know, our like invoice list and so on is huge at this point so we need help now. It's actually more about raising, like building up a team now than it is about can we get orders. >> Right. It's really delivering more than sales. >> Exactly. >> I see what you're saying. And so we need to build up a delivery team, we need to- I mean, it's fairly intuitive, but at the same time it's a new technology which means, as with any platform, you're building up a team of evangelist, support individuals and so on. And there's going to be a marketing component as well, so we haven't really driven marketing that much. AWS has been great in kind of doing some of that for us, but we need to of course very actively go out and market. We haven't had that capacity yet. >> All right. We look forward to watching the story unfold and thanks for spending a few minutes with us. >> My pleasure. Thanks, thank you very much. All right, he's Rajeev Dutt, I'm Jeff. Thank you for watching the Cube. We're at the AWS Marketplace and Service Catalog Experience at the Aria, come on by. Thanks for watching. (upbeat music)

>> Live from Nashville, Tennessee, it's theCUBE! Covering CommVault Go 2018. Brought to you by CommVault. >> I hear the train a'comin'. It's rollin' round the bend, and I ain't seen the sun shine since I don't know when. Oh, you're watching theCUBE, and we're in Nashville, Tennessee. Yes, Johnny Cash, he played his last days here. And I'm Stu Miniman with Keith Townsend. And helping us to round up the program, he's wearing a He Wore Black shirt >> Yes I am. >> Which is a Johnny Cash tribute band. And my only guest of the day wearing cowboy boots. Friend of mine, happy to help us round this up, David Chapa, who's the founder of the CTO Group, also known as Mister Recovery in the industry. David, thanks so much for joining us. >> Thank you. CTE Group. >> CTE Group, I'm sorry. >> I haven't made the O level yet. >> I'm sorry, I'm confusing things with the CTO Advisor here. >> I know, you got an O, you got an E, we have almost all the letters. >> We got all these TLEs, TLAs in the industry here, but thank you so much for joining us. >> Thank you for having me. >> All right, so my first time at the CommVault show. I've known CommVault for a lot of years. Keith's been here twice. What's your experience been at the show so far? >> This is my first time to the show. So far it's been very impressive. This show room floor is huge. I like how they set it up. They want it set up like it's a street, and they were successful. You can walk down, you can stroll down a street. You can go and see different vendors. I thought it was, as far as the design, I thought it was really really good. Information's great. >> Yeah. What I found, "engaging" is what I'd say, that's what you want with a show floor. The booths did pretty well, but there's little pavilions where they're having lots of sessions. Every time I went by, there were people there. There's labs, people going away, and there's media and podcasts, and food and beverage, and all that stuff there, but a nice dynamic and really kept it going and that's been this show itself. I found it to be engaging. There's a lot going on, a lot of announcements. What's your take on CommVault? >> Well, I think that their transformation, they've been talking about, you know, transform the company. I heard a lot about, you know, people tag us as a legacy company. We're too expensive, we're this, we're that. I heard Bob say a couple times, "What 20-year-old company is not going to be called legacy?" There's some truth to that. But they've done, I think, a pretty good job of kind of laying out what it is they plan on doing. They've tried to simplify things. I look at different companies and I often say this to clients. You know, there's four things you really want to worry about in life when you're running a business. You want to make money, that's one of them. You want to make sure you have good customer satisfaction. You make sure your people are happy, and you want to make sure you make it easy for people to do business with you. And I think CommVault's really taking a hard look at the, how do we make it easy for them to do business with us. And so they've reduced the, they put all our products on one slide, which I thought was pretty impressive. They've also simplified the pricing, which I thought was pretty impressive. So, I think, what they are doing is they are trying to make some good strides to make those things happen and they are focusing on the customers as a result. >> All right. So, Keith, I'm going to let you ask some questions. But we talked some in our opening analysis, but after talking to customers, talking to their execs, what are you walking away with from this show? >> You know what? Some companies are transformed because it's just the natural flow of business. They are forced into competition. They have to react. CommVault's transformation is not a fluke. From the top down, this is not silos. This is not individual product silos competing in their individual silo. We talked to Al Bunte, the COO, and he talked about doing the right thing by the customer because it's the right thing to do. And if you don't focus on money, money will come. I think we all like to have those idealistic views, but, I think, it's something that on the surface, at least from this show, is working for CommVault. They are transformed. I ran a backup project. One of my first major projects of my IT career almost 20 years ago. And one of the big dogs was CommVault. Needless to say with any technology, much, much different company dealing with today than I dealt with 20 years ago. And I think I'd go as far as to say CommVault was a much different company than three years ago versus the first CommVault Go. >> Coming into this show certain things I was looking for. How do they play in the cloud? Okay. Are they actually doing things with AI? Or as I saw this joke on the internet that was a zoo took a donkey and painted stripes on it and said, "Typical AI start-up VC funded." You know, not actually a zebra and the like. And I tell you, the questions that I had, I think CommVault had a good solid answer. At the open this morning we said there wasn't anything that jumped out that was like, "Wow. I've never heard of that or thought of it." But, you know, good customer base. You know, strong brand in the industry. And making a lot of the right moves to get there. The announcements this week, anything jump out at you? Anything surprise you? >> Nothing surprised me. But, you know, things that jump out cause my focus with the CT Group is on really disaster recovery, business continuity, helping customers really understand the value of the data, and how to recover that data. I shouldn't say the data because it's about recovering the mission of the business, whatever that may be. And one of the things that I liked that I heard this yesterday and today, was about their recovery readiness report. I thought that was pretty interesting. Their interface is very clean and a customer can drill into the RP that they want. And I got a demo earlier from one of the developers and that was one thing that stood out. Because for me, it's all about the recovery. Backup is great. I've been doing backup for a long time. But if you can't recover that stuff, man, they, you know, once someone said that a backup admin is a great job because no one knows your name. >> (laughs) >> Until you can't restore the data, and then they know your first name, last name, and middle initial. And my middle initial is A, so you can imagine the kind of names I was called when that stuff wasn't happening. When you can have a plan, and that's the idea, disaster recovery plan, and then you can respond and not react, that's where you want to be. And I think that's what CommVault needs to deliver to their customers to be successful in this transformation is, how can they achieve that plan, and how can they be responsive and not reactive, cause reactive is when you make mistakes. >> So I think one of the things that I had tweeted earlier was that CommVault isn't asleep at the wheel. And we asked Al a challenging question, which was, "How do you provide these new features that's expected in the modern backup data protection platform, but yet please your legacy customer? I mean, some customers don't want the change. If they didn't have to upgrade their backup software for three years, they'd prefer not to. So one of the things I thought is interesting is that their walking a tightrope. And, Dave, I'd like to hear from you on your thoughts around their ability to please their traditional legacy customer while attracting net new customers. >> There's that word again, legacy. Now it's with the customers. I think as you look at the market, and you guys know this, I had a conversation with a health care customer months and months and months ago. Actually, I think it was about two years ago. And the CTO was really a legacy minded person. Why should we go to the cloud when everything is working? Why should we do this when everything is working? Well, the conversation I had with him was, "Your business is going to be accelerating. Your competition will be accelerating. And you need to keep up with the competition by adopting some of these things that will help you move faster, smarter, and make better decisions for your business." So those legacy customers at some point will have to make a decision that we need to be competitive in the market place and we're going to need new tools. Now for those customer that are using CommVault today, well, CommVault is sitting there with their new platform, the transformative ideas that they have to help them get there. So, you know, to try to answer your question, it's really hard. There will be legacy customers, of course, but those legacy customers need to survive. And you've got to survive by responding to the market demands. >> It was interesting for me to look at this ecosystem here. Talk about the partnerships. Talk about how their playing in multi-cloud. There are, potentially, a lot of threats to a CommVault out there. Not just, you know, the start-ups that are coming directly after this space that are well funded, but, you know, the same people that are trying to partner with in the public cloud, well stop partnering with the public cloud. They are driving a lot of innovation in the industry in doing this. What does CommVault need to do to stay successful, you know, grow their customer base, and, you know, accelerate through this transformation? >> Well I saw the interview that you did with Al. And the one thing he said was, "Listen to the customers." And that is one thing I would tell them too is, you have to listen to your customers. And you have to comprehend what they are saying. Not just understand what they are saying. Those are two different things. When you can comprehend what someone is saying that means you can repeat that with the same passion in your own words. So listen to your customers, really comprehend what their challenges are and how you can help them, either with the existing product or the features that you need to develop to help them get over that hump or that challenge they have. So that to me is the biggest thing, listen to the customers. That's going to drive the market. >> Yeah, David. I'm really taken a back by the amount of change, the amount of conversation around multi-cloud. We had a great conversation with the tech field data guys a little bit earlier about data management. One of the things that I'd like to hear from you from your industry perspective from CTE and helping customers with data recovery, and not just data recovery as you mentioned, business recovery. Are customers hearing the message from the CommVaults of the world that your cloud strategy, your multi-cloud strategies, starts with data, data management, data protection. Is that actually resonating with customers? Or is that a niche, I think, awareness? >> It depends on who you're talking to. So for me, I think any organization that wants to win the hearts and minds of the mid-market and the lower end of enterprise, you have to really start thinking more business centric. That's the focus of what we do. We look at business centric IT. And what does that mean? Well that means that you throw away the lexicon that we're so used to using in IT, and you really start to try to use the terms that the business will understand and comprehend. And the way you do that is by asking a lot of questions of the business. What's important? Why is it important? What's the mission? In IT, we should not be the ones that own the data, that own the application. We are the stewards or the custodian of that. And as the steward or custodian, we do know we have to protect it, but we don't know necessarily know why. But we need to understand that. And then, when we have that conversation with the with the business, then we can start talking to them about recovering the mission of that particular business unit. It might be two servers. It might be 40 servers. So is that message resonating with companies? I think, I think CommVault needs to do a better job at communicating at that business value level. And I think that this conference, this launching pad, if you will, is the starting point for them to do that. More companies want to understand how they can solve real business problems and challenges and not hear how fast your feature is or how cool this new widget is that you have in your product. They have real business challenges. They want to solve those challenges. >> All right. Well, David, that critical analysis is one of the reasons that I asked you on the program. Keith, it's been a pleasure doing the show with you today, as always. But before I let you off the hook, David, this is our first time doing the show in Nashville. I've barely gotten to see much of the city. Keith and his wife are checking out a little bit of it. I did get some Nashville hot chicken. But for those in our audience that maybe haven't been to Nashville, what are they missing here culturally, musically, and the like? >> Wow. What are you missing? Well there's a lot of great music. You can't find a bad musician in Nashville. If you do, they're not in town very long. >> (laughing) Run them out of town. >> Yeah. But Nashville is a very, very cool town. Downtown Nashville you walk around there at 10:00 in the morning you're hearing music. Live music anywhere you walk in. The country side is beautiful. So from a Johnny Cash perspective, you can go to Hendersonville and you can drive by where Johnny Cash's house was at right on the Old Hickory Lake there. It's burned down, but it's still, the foundation is still there. A lot of rich history in Nashville. You've got to come check it out. This is one of my favorite cities, man. And there's a reason why I changed my flight to get down to this show. I was already here in Nashville last week playing a music gig. I thought I could play the CommVault gig for a little while. I could do that. >> Excellent. So when you closed the show, what was the closer for the Johnny Cash tribute band? >> For me it's The Man In Black. >> All right. Well I appreciate you joining, David. For Keith Townsend, I'm Stu Miniman. For the whole crew here, thanks so much for joining us. Be sure to check out theCUBE.net for all of the coverage from this show. All the shows we'll be at the future. Feel free to hit us up through social media if you have any other questions. And once again, thanks so much for watching theCUBE. (techno music)

(upbeat music) >> Announcer: Live from Austin, Texas, it's the Cube, covering Kubecon and CloudNativeCon 2017. Brought to you by Red Hat, the Linux Foundation, and the Cube's Ecosystem partners. >> Hello and welcome back to the Cube's exclusive coverage live in Austin, Texas here for the three day CloudNative and now two days of KubeCon, Kubernetes conference. We had the second annual conference celebrating the evolution and growth of Kubernetes. I'm John Furrier, my cohost Stu Miniman and next guest Steve Watt, Chief Architect of Emerging Technologies at Red Hat, welcome back to the Cube. Good to see you. >> Thanks for having me, always a pleasure. >> So Red Hat making some good bets, some Kubernetes, not a bad call. >> No, Kubernetes has done wonders for our openship business, absolutely. (laughter) >> So how is this all playing out? We were just talking before we came on camera here about the just the pace of change. You been at Red Hat five years. We interviewed you when you were at HB during the big day to days, boy the world has certainly grown and changed. What has changed in your mind the most the people need to understand? >> I think Kubernetes has been a single biggest driving force to shift all enterprising architecture from scale up to scale out and I think that has just created a whole number of ripple effects across how applications are designed within the enterprise. >> I think that's the big one. >> Yeah. >> So Steve, that whole shift from scale up to scale out has affected lots of parts of the stack, but storage is something you've been working on, something we've been keeping a close eye on and was one of the top items we wanted to kind of dig into this week. Maybe, bring us inside a little bit, what's happening, what's Red Hat's role? >> Sure. >> Help explain. >> Absolutely, one of my favorite topics. It's kind of counterintuitive. I work in a CT office, I run the emerging technologies team, which is sort of the team that does the experiments that help shape and inform our long term strategy. And so you might think, well storage is kind of old news, how does that fit into this CloudNative world? Why does Red Hat care about it so much for their platform? And I think if you look at the CloudNative stack today, you have GKE, the new Amazon Kubernetes service, Azure, et cetera, these are all places where you can run your Kubernetes app, but just in that one place. Red Hat's platform perspective's a little different. We want you to be able to run your platform in an open hybrid cloud, whether that's in Google, in Azure or on premise, on OpenStack or on Bare Metal So you want to be able to run everywhere, but what's the biggest problem to achieving that application portability? It's data locking, so storage becomes cool again. (laughter) We got to solve this problem. >> Because you got to store the data somewhere. >> Steve: Right. >> And that's in the storage devices. >> Right, exactly. >> In the new way, the architecture. >> The new architecture, right? So the problem is, you've got to be very careful that if you want to move, ever you should think upfront about your persistence platform, so that it gives you the freedom to be able to move around. So Red Hat is investing heavily in trying to solve this problem. We've got a few exploratory prototypes that we're actually showing at this conference. And we work in both Kubernetes, building out the storage sub-system there, but also sort of in our products for like container native storage. >> Steve walk us through a little bit because we've been talking about this in the Docker Ecosystem for a bunch of years, where are we, what's being worked on? What still needs to be kind of sorted out? >> So, yeah that's interesting, I think we're finally over the hump where everybody's asking, Who's solving the persistence problem for containers? It used to drive me crazy, that went on for about three years. I think people finally realize, there are solutions. Kubernetes has always had them actually. And so, we've got past sort of the day one, like being able to, dynamically provision. Kind of like you'd see with Cinder in OpenStack. We've got a great storage. we've got a vibrant huge storage ecosystem and at our Kubernetes face to face meetings we have 50 people, they're like a mini conference. So we've got broad engagement from the entire storage ecosystem and that's doing everything that you need sort of on the file level, but there is recent (mumbles) work that we've done in Kubernetes for Service Broker is now the pattern to sort of provision object storage if you need it and most importantly, we've just enabled lock storage in Kubernetes in the 1.9 release that ships this week. And that is really interesting because it opens up the potential to run virtualization with loads on Kubernetes. >> Where's the action for the projects with storage? I heard some hallway rumbles just when I was, the Rook project. >> Steve: Yeah. >> Is that something, what projects, if I'm interested in storage, where do I dive in? Where's the most action for moving the needle for tuning the innovation around storage. >> I think it's if you're a storage vendor it's different if you're a storage consumer so Rook is a project that's focused on providing a sort of an abstraction for software defined storage platforms to run inside Kubernetes. Cluster doesn't take that approach, we've used sort of more of the pure Kubernetes approach. Sort of get to the same place. But Rook is definitely an interesting project in that, it's sort of an inception level project phase. Then for people that are wanting to consume storage, I think Kubernetes is the king of the pack. I obviously have a strong opinion on it, amongst the other container orchestrators, but the amount of investment in allowing people to do more continually more sophisticated features, you know snapshot's in, you know cloning, things like that. And obviously, I'm sure you've heard a little bit about container storage interface. >> Yes. >> CSI, and that makes it a lot easier for storage vendors to build one adapter that works across, Decos, Cloud foundry, Kubernetes, et cetera. >> What's the biggest surprise here for you, because we've been looking trying to read the tea leaves. Obviously Kubernetes, clear the runway, good standardization seeing some commoditization, great adoption, although people can tailor it. A lot of different versions, still early. >> Steve: Yeah. >> We're only two years old conference. >> I know. >> Three years it's been around. What's surprising you right now? What's jumping out at you? >> I think Amazon's announcement yesterday was very interesting. I think the fact that it's heartening to see that there's pure Kubernetes as a service being offered in Azure, Google and Amazon. And I think that quite interesting for affordability standpoint, right. And so I think to me that was a big surprise. Amazon doesn't usually go the pure vanilla open source approach and also the statements they're going to contribute back to Kubernetes, I think is quite interesting as well. So to me that's the one thing that stood out. >> What's going on for the future too? You mentioned you've got to set the roadmap. You guys have an agenda there obviously of installed base. >> Steve: Yeah. >> Now you've got OpenShift doing really well. What are you guys looking at? What's on your radar, how do you see this thing unfolding? What's in your mind? >> Yeah, I think there's a couple of really interesting things. Container orchestration is a legitimate disruption to virtualization. And that it solves the same problem opportunity space but in a fundamentally different manner that reshapes the market. I think the Kubert project is something that we're working on at Red Hat. It's another one of our sort of emerging technology focus areas. And when we enable block storage and it enables virtualization, what it gives us the opportunity to do in Kubernetes is have a single deployed platform that can serve both later adopters and early adopters. So the early adopters with pure container orchestration, but if you're wanting to have the same platform and do virtualization too on it, you can have sort of one investment, one shared experience to be able to do all of those. I think that's pretty cool. (laughter) >> Steve, talk about the customers that are watching or will be hearing over the next few months and a year around how to architectually package this and think about it in their mind. Whether it's a mental model or specifics. 'Cause there's always going to be that time tested trade off between performance, security and so you have, obviously people have VM's, not going away, but containerization where Google say, hey, we don't really care about VM's, we're a container company. There's always still going to be trade offs. >> Steve: Yeah. >> Speed, security. >> Steve: Security. >> So security factors in there. How should a practitioner think about getting their arms around this? >> I think this is the tact that OpenShift takes which is that Kubernetes is a decent project. Despite the huge amount of interest and contributions that we have and its maturity curve as far as, there are different things at attention, like enterprise use cases, versus public cloud use cases. And so we're very focused on our enterprise use cases and sort of enabling that inside OpenShift and bringing OpenShift up as a platform back to sort of enterprise level that our customers would expect. Virtualization platforms are much further down the maturity curve, and so I think that's sort of our approach is that, where that tries to meet our customers where they are. Some organizations have teams that are more advanced. Some that are less advanced. And so we try to offer, you know if you want to go virtualization we've got OpenStack, we've got Rev. If you want you could use this new school Kubernetes based container orchestration and you got teams understand it. (laughter) And you corrupt microservices then we've got a solution for that. >> Well you know that whole theme here is infrastructures is boring storage. It used to be called snorage back in the day. >> Steve: Yeah. >> It's pretty boring but relevant. Most people look at like Lambda from Amazon and some other serverless trends and certainly see them here with ServiceMesh and what not, the abstraction way of infrastructure, it's almost eliminating storage in the mind of the developer, yet it's changing, how are you guys specifically riding that wave? Because one, it's good for developers. >> Steve: Right. >> The velocity of developers increases, but the role of storage is changing. You mention block, people are like, oh block-- >> Yeah. >> It's dead. I mean storage has been dead for like 20 years now? >> Steve: Yeah. >> It keeps growing and growing, but now the role changes to the developer, abstracted away and also more important for automation and some of the dev ops things. What specifically are you guys doing? >> So, I think you said the word role. That's really important right? Like to an application developer what you said is absolutely true, they want to use persistence platforms for storing their data in a cloud native way, okay. However, the maturity code is also important. Not every application developer team is fully microservice based and understands all these architectural patterns. It's a journey, right? So we want to basically give them multiple options along their journey. So that's the one around the application persistence. So if they used to like file storage or object storage, et cetera, like we have our container native storage platform provides that for them from the application persistence level, but from an OpenShift standpoint, an OpenShift is our new platform. It's based on real but it's our new platform, our new service area to build applications and most notably, infrastructure services on. So just like with (mumbles) where we have, we created the opportunity to have a fertile ecosystem around it, we're doing the same with OpenShift, which means that we've got to enable the companies that are providing those persistence platforms. Those message cues, those NoSQL databases, to run on OpenShift. You want to run Cassandra on OpenShift on premise? What do you need underneath the Cassandra? Block storage, direct attached block storage, which we're building in Kubernetes 1.10. >> Steve, any patterns you're seeing between the customers that are being able to embrace really the kind of this new cloud data world versus those that are having challenges? Any advice you can give based on customer interactions and what you're seeing. >> That's a good question. I think, I just have to fall back on the fact that culture is a hard thing to change. It takes a long time. Institutions are persistent and so I think that for what we sort of say to our customers, our guidance on these topics is that, what we try and give you is choice. Depending on where you are on the journey, slowly move our customers through that journey and try to give them a variety of different choices on that. I think personally like with any new disruption, it usually has like 10 x value. Like the one benefit of containers over to machines is you don't have to bring the operating system along every time you create a new container, right? You can much more densely pack a server with containers with virtual machines. Get more resource utilization, but it takes a long time for an application development team to like fully get there. And so, that's the thing I think, is you just got to be judicious about like the right tool at the right time. >> Yeah, the other thing related to that is the pace of change. >> Steve: Yeah. >> I've talked to some of the people that created Kubernetes, the people who are running all this and they're like, I can't keep up with all these projects. What are you finding internally in Red Hat, as well as from your customers? >> Yeah, I think that it's absolutely true. I was just remarking on that a minute ago it's, you know I'm walking around. I hear this great quote, like why do you come to conferences? Do you come to conferences to learn or do you come to conferences to learn about what you need to learn? (laughter) >> Yeah. >> And it's the latter for me, right. And the ecosystem, the CloudNative ecosystem is exploding. And so I think what we try to do at Red Hat is, especially our team. Our goal in Emerging Technologies is to look 18 months down the road and pick the winners. Like community vitality standpoint, but also like the right technology. And there's this plethora of choices that we need to wave through and what we tend to do is distill that down into our platform that's something our customers can rely on. And that's reliable and we've picked the right project, but it's a big challenge. Like there's so much happening and even in storage it's becoming challenging. >> Steve Watt the Chief Architect of Emerging Engineering at Red Hat thanks for coming on the Cube, appreciate your perspective. It's an architectural game right now. A lot of people putting these new architectures together. It's cultural change. Congratulations on your success with OpenShift and everything else. >> Steve: Yeah, thank you very much. >> Alright, and more coverage here on the Cube after this short break. >> Steve: Thanks. (upbeat music)

>> Announcer: Live, from Orlando, Florida, it's the Cube covering Grace Hopper's celebration of women in computing brought to you by Silicon Angle Media >> Welcome back to the Cube's coverage of the Grace Hopper conference here in Orlando, Florida I'm your host Rebecca Knight, along with my co host Jeff Frick. We're joined by Megan Smith. We're very excited to have you on the show. >> It's good to be here >> She is the third US CTO and also the CEO of a new company, Shift7.co, so thanks so much for joining us. >> Thanks for having me, it's great to be here. It's so fun to be at Hopper, >> Rebecca: It is, it is! >> It's cool, it's the Grace Hopper celebration, because we're trying to celebrate women in computing, and we're what, at 18 thousand people now, >> The biggest ever, >> Plus I think, 6 thousand people joining on the livestream, which is great. >> Before the cameras were rolling, we were talking about your role as the 3rd US CTO, and just talking about getting more technology into government to help leaders work together, and move faster. Tell us a little about this initiative. >> What's so great, is it's not partisan, fixing the government and making it work better, so all the work that we were doing continues. What we were able to put in place, during the Obama administration, and continues to Trump, were things like, the CT office. Having technical people, so I worked at Google, people work at Amazon, Facebook, Twitter, these companies who have that background, to join in on policy conversations, one, to join in on capacity building the government, so data sciences and tech and, let's have our services be as great as Amazon, or as Twitter, or Oracle, and not be sort of retro, really serve the American people. And then also, helping the American people in general, with capacity building, things like computer science for all. So that was an initiative that continues to get all of our children to have coding at school. That all children, you couldn't graduate from high school without having had some experience on learning of coding Coding is a 21st century fluency, it's a skill we all need, Like freshman biology. You want to know some biology, you want to know some coding, you want to know how to write, so making sure they have is tech-up, which was a program we started to help train Americans, there's six hundred thousand jobs open, in the United States, and they pay 50% more than the average American salary. The companies are starving. How do we rapidly get more Americans into these jobs? It turns out that people have, of course, created these fabulous code boot camps, you can train in three months for these jobs, some of them are paid, some times they pay you, all different kinds, some are online, some are offline, they're all over the country. So we're able to get more people to consider, a job like that, culturally they think, Well I don't, why would I, I don't know how to do that. Well you can, this is a fun and interesting and exciting career, you can do digital marketing, you can do user interface design. You can get involved in front end or back end coding, product management, all those things, sales. And so, how do you pull lots more Americans in, get our companies fueled so we have really the economic opportunity, and they're all over the country. Location wise, and topic wise. So we did tech hour now, and a tech jobs tour, which is not what we did in government, but we continue some of that work. >> This weird dichotomy, because on one end, people are worried about tech taking jobs, on the other hand, there's a ton of open tech jobs. And there's this transition period, that's difficult, obviously for people that didn't grow up, but one of the keynote speakers today, told a really heartening story, that she didn't get into it until the day she had to leave her abusive husband, and now she is a coder >> That's Doctor Sue Black, who was just given the Order of the British Empire, I mean, she is an incredible computer scientist. Yes, she escaped an abusive marriage with three small children, in her early 20s, I think. Ended up moving into public housing, and dealing with three children only being the school from 9 until 3, and eventually getting her PhD in computer science, and really, she started Techmoms now, she continues to do research in other things, but she's really trying to use her story, and her organizing capacity, to have more people realize this isn't hard like figuring out gravity waves that won the Nobel prize. This is hard like writing a hard essay, so we all can learn to write an essay. It takes some mastery work, you don't learn it in kindergarten but by the time you're in 7th, 8th, 9th, 10th, 12th grade, you can do it. >> It's not rocket science. >> Right, so coding is like that. >> The other piece you said that's very interesting, is the consumerization of IT. We've seen it at enterprise, a huge trend. But, now I expect everything that's on my phone, when I interact with Facebook or Amazon, or whatever, to be in all the applications, so, as you said, that's influencing government, and the way they have to deliver services, and I would imagine, too, with kind of the next wave of kids coming in, graduating, going into public service, they certainly have that expectation, right? They've been working on their phone forever of course it should be on the phone. >> And so we want everybody in our country fluent in computer science and coding at a basic level, like again, like freshman biology or takin' chemistry in high school, or taking writing. So that everyone could realize this is not rocket science we could have these kinds of capabilities as part of our services, from Housing and Urban Development, from the Department of Education. You know, a lot of us use our phones to get places, you know, on our maps, and so that's actually data coming from the US Geological survey, if you're looking at the weather, you're looking at NOAA's satellites, this is open government data. We were able to open over two hundred thousand data sets, from all over government, not private data, but public data, that you could make an entire app store, or Google play set of products on top of that. Government wouldn't have to pay for that, it just packages up the API as well. A really good example of that, is the US census team. There's nothing more big data than census, they have all of our information from a data perspective, and so they did opportunity.census.gov, and they said to various agencies, let us help you bridge these data sets into something that someone could build on top of, like we're seeing from the courses sector, we saw wonderful things like, Housing and Urban Development said, okay, our challenges are housing affordability, mobility, these are the challenges instead of having HUD make an app for Americans to come to, they just can explain what their problem is, what data sets, and then engage extraordinary companies, like airbnb, Redfins, Zillow, these fabulous tech companies, who can make instead a product for 100% of the Americans, rather than only wealthy or middle class Americans, and so they did things like, opportunity score, and airbnb helping you figuring out, if I rent a room in my house I can make my rent more affordable, very creative apps, that we can see, same thing for the Department of Ed or Department of Labor, and as the data gets out there, and as apps come, also the opportunity for data science and machine learning. What if, as much as we serve ads to ourselves, in these algorithms, what if we use the algorithms to help Americans find a job that they would love? You know, job matching, and these kinds of opportunities. of the problems in the world, and helping government get more fluent at that. And the way to do that is not so much, jam the government You have to do this, but find terrific talent like we see at Hopper, and have them cycle into the government, to be co-leaders just like a surgeon general would come. >> Are you facing recruitment challenges in that same way though? In the sense that technology is having a hard enough time recruiting and retaining women, but the government, too, is that seen as enough of an employer of choice for young talented, bright ambitious, young women? >> I'm not in government now, but when we were in there, we found a very interesting thing. Alex Mcgovern, who had been the general counsel of Twitter who was Stephanie's CTO with me and led a lot of our tech quals we called TQ like tech IQ in policy, together with economists and lawyers and others have if we're going to decide net neutrality, let's include everyone, including computer scientists, and we're going to sue bridge and open source, So we talked about that, and on the way going in Mcgovern, he said, wouldn't it be cool if, just like when you look at a lawyer's resume, you might see that they clerk and they served their county through clerking and through the judicial system, as well as being a private lawyer, they were a public defender, that's a pretty normal thing to see on a legal resume. If you looked at medical, you might see them going into NIH or doing some research, if you looked at a scientist, they might have gone to, done some NSF work or others. But for the tech crew, there is of course amazing technical people in NASA, NAH and the Department of Energy, and there's great IT teams, but there's not this thing that the Silicon Valley crew resume would say, oh, yeah, I served my country. So that's why, under President Obama, we were able to create these incredible programs. The Presidential Innovation Fellows, which was a one year term of service, The United States Digital Service, which is a three months to a two year term of service in the VA. What's more amazing if you build Amazon, than to go as a second act and help our veterans? It's an incredible honor, to the point of, will they come? Yes, that's what we were hoping, could we have that be a normal thing, and yes it's become a normal thing. And the Trump administration continues it. The 18F team is in the general services administration, they're on 18th and F so they have a code name. But that particular team is located around the country, not only in DC but in San Francisco, in Chicago, and others. So you see this tech sector flowing now into the government on a regular basis, and we welcome more peoples. The government is who shows up to help, so we need the tech sector to show up cause we've got a lot of money as a country, but if we're not effectively using it we're not serving the American people and foster children, veterans, elders, others need the services that they deserve and we have the money, so let's make it happen the way the tech sector is delivering Amazon packages or searches. >> What is your feeling, this is not your first Grace Hopper obviously, but what is your feeling about this conference, and advice that you would give to young women who are here, maybe for their first or second time, in terms of getting the most their time here? >> You know, I think the main thing is, it's a celebration, that's fun and you can walk up to anyone, so just talk to everyone. I've been talking to a million people on the floor, fabulous. Students are here, more senior technical leaders are here. We've been running speed mentoring, we're running a program called the Tech Jobs Tour, it's at Techjobstour.com, it's a #Americanshiring, and we've been going to 50 different cities and so we're running a version of that, and we do speed mentoring, so come to the speed mentoring sessions, it's a five minute pop, talk to someone about what you're tryin' to do. Lot's of programs like that, get into the sessions, come to the keynotes which are so inspiring, and Melinda Gates was amazing today, Dr. Fefe Lee was incredible, just across aboard, Dr Sue Black was here, I thought it was great today, actually, just to reflect on Melinda's keynote, I think this might have been the first time, I was talking to her, that she's really talked about her own technical experience >> That struck me, too! As a coder, starting in computer science. I didn't really understand that she had really started very early, with Apple 3 and the story of her dad >> And her love of her Apple 3, right! and really high school coding, which is so important for young people in high school and middle school, even younger. The Muscogee Creek Tribe, in Oklahoma, is teaching robotics in head start, so we can start in preschool. Just make it fun, and interesting. They're funny, they don't do battle bots, because you don't really want to teach 3 and 4 year olds to fight, so instead they have collaborative robots. >> Robots who work together Age appropriate. >> Well Megan Smith, this has been so fun talking to you, thanks so much for coming on our show. >> Thanks for having me. >> We will have more from the Grace Hopper Conference just after this, I'm Rebecca Knight for Jeff Frick (music)

>> Man: Live from Washington DC it's the Cube. Covering .conf2017, brought to you by splunk. >> Welcome back to Washington DC, Nations capital. Here for dotconf2017 as the Cube continues our coverage. The flagship broadcast of silicon idol tv. Along with Dave Alonte, I am John Walls. Glad to have you with us after we've had a little lunch break. Feeling good? >> Feel great, good conversation with customers, dug into the pricing model, got some good information. >> What did you learn at lunch? >> Well talk about it at the end of the day. >> Alright, good, look forward to it. Let's talk healthcare right now. Derek Merck is with us right now. He is the director of computer vision and imaging analytics at the Rhode Island Hospital. Which is the teaching hospital for Brown University. Derek thanks for joining us here on the Cube. Good to see ya. >> Absolutely, very excited to be here. >> So, well and as are we to have you. Director of computer vision and image analytics, so let's talk about that. What falls under your portfolio, and tell us where does Splunk come into that picture? >> It's been an interesting journey, Rhode Island hospital is a huge clinical service. Takes really good care of the people of Rhode Island. I'm in diagnostic imaging, so I work with all the CT scans, the MR's, radiography, ultrasonography, and what I try to do is automate the data that is coming off all of these machines as much as possible. So, you know typically the patient will come in, they'll get imaged for some reason, the physician will take a look at that image and make a diagnosis, and then that image goes into an archive. It may be used again later if the patient comes back but other than that it is not really used at all. With these sort of emergence of computer vision access to training images, sets of data, has become really critical. Diagnostic imaging has become really interested in taking better account of what imaging they have so that they can try to answer questions like what's alike about these images. What is different about these images, and automate diagnosis. What's similar about all the images of patients who have cancer, versus patients who don't have cancer. Which is basically what a radiologist job is, is to go and look at this patients image and figure out does this patient have cancer or not. SO that is the way you would teach a computer how to do it in an automated fashion. SO I spent a lot of time trying to figure out how do you keep, how do you take, keep better track of what is available and be able to ask these sort of population based questions about what we have in our portfolio of data, our data portfolio. I spent a lot of time writing systems by hand in python, or other kinds of scripting tools. I spent a lot of time trying to interface with the hospital informatics systems, the electronic medical record. The electronic medical record again really meant for taking care of patients it is not meant for population analytics. We ended up basically building our own health care analytic system just to keep track of what we had. What were the doctors saying about different cases. Show me all the cases where the doctors think that some particular thing happened. And be able to ask these questions in real time, generate huge data sets, anonymize them, run them through computer vision algorithms, train classifiers. Diagnostic imaging is really excited about this kind of technology. There has been a lot of interesting side projects as well. One of the most, one of the things that administration is the most interested is because of these kinds of systems we are keeping a lot better track of radiation exposure, per image, so the CT scanners will tell you how much radiation was used for an individual study. But again our analytic systems historically you have no way of saying what's the average? What's high, what's low? Its months of latency, six months of latency between when you run a scan and when American College of Radiology comes back and says some of your scans were a little high in radiation exposure. Whereas now because we keep track of all this data we have this real time dashboards and that is the kind of thing we use Splunk for. WE keep track of all the data we are collecting and then we create these dashboards and give them to people who haven't had access to this kind of analytics before. For looking at utilization, optimizing work flow, things like that. >> I am just kind of curious when you mention like x-rays and maybe Dave you know more about this than I do. But it seems like it is kind of a standard practice you have a certain amount of exposure for a certain amount of test, and that data I don't know how but it sounds like it is more critical to have that kind of data than someone a layman might think. I was curious of the analytics of that. What are you using to determine there in terms of that exposure? >> There's always a trade off with radiation based imaging. There is a lot of non radiation based imaging. Like you may have heard of magnetic resonance imaging, or MR. Those are thought to be perfectly safe. You can get MR's all day long. If fact they do give MR's to people all day long for research purposes sometimes. >> You climb in the tube, I don't want to climb in the tube. >> You get a little claustrophobic >> They are expensive >> That is the thing, we don't have very many of them. They are very slow but they're safe. Ultrasounds very safe, we give ultrasounds to pregnant women all the time very safe, but they don't give you very quality images back. They give you a very small field of view and things are wiggling around. A CT scan is super fast and it gives a physician all the information they need in a snap shot. CT scanners are so fast now they can freeze your beating heart. They can make a revolution around your body of thickness so they can capture your heart while it is in motion. You know like with anything if you have a camera and you take a picture of someone running across the screen you don't see the person you just see this sort of blur, right? Now with modern fast aperture cameras you can take a picture of nutrinos and things that are impossibly fast. I don't know that that's actually true. You might wand to edit that out. (laughing) >> But conceptually >> A CT scan is the same sort of thing. Your heart is beat all the time, your lungs are moving all the time. Your bowls are moving all the time. Your blood is coursing through your veins all the time. It is so fast it can freeze it and give you this volumetric data back. They use that for all kinds of different things. They're not able to do with other kinds of imaging modalities The downside is that they're potentially somewhat dangerous, right? People have known since the 1890's when x-rays were first discovered by Wilhome Rankin that if you put somebody under an x-ray beam for too long, your hair will fall out, you'll get skin burns, all kinds of things that these early pioneers of x-ray did to themselves without realizing it. Documenting all of these problems that can happen, and a CT can uses ionizing radiation if you get too many CT scans you'll get skin reactions, or other kinds of things. It is really important to keep track of the risk to benefit ratio there. People give you a CT scan if you fall down and you hurt your head. They give you a CT scan cause they're worried that you are going to die if you don't get the CT scan. Along with that is this idea of how do you track how many CT scans an individual patient gets in a year. Right now the hospital has a hard time keeping track if somebody comes into the emergency room of automatically identifying oh this patients already had six CT's should we put them in line for a MR instead of another CT. Again these are the kinds of things that we are able to get at through using, through better management of our data and organization of our data. >> You mentioned that you're doing more of this real time analysis, Splunk is obviously a tool that helps do that. Other tooling, are you using cloud based tools? >> We have to be really careful about cloud based stuff. There is this protected health information that everyone's really concerned about. Working with data at the hospital is really walking a fine line you need to be very conscious of security. There really reluctant to let non anonymized data out to cloud sources for storage. There are some ways of getting around that, but basically we run all of our servers in house. There's a couple of big data centers down in the basement of the hospital. Mostly they have clinical duties but we have a number of research servers that are installed down there as well. They're managed by the same IT staff in this sort of hardened architecture. I actually can't do any work from home which is an unusual kind of experience, I am used to being able to log in remotely. >> Oh darn (laughing) >> Or you spend too much time on the job. >> Some times you'd like to >> I'm ambivalent about it, there's goods and bads about it. >> So how do you deal with that streaming infrastructure and real time analysis. Do you guys sort of build your own? Any kind of resource tools, or >> I use a lot of open source tools. Traditionally the hospital wants to pay for everything. They feel like if they pay for things then it comes with uptime guarantees. When I build my systems though, because I'm working on shoestring budgets, And because I believe in open source. I use open source where ever I can. I wanted to mention we're actually for a lot of the work that we do supported through Splunk for good. So I don't pay for a full Splunk license, Cory Marshal who runs Splunk for good, has sort of recognized the value of some of the stuff that we're doing with dealing with non traditional data. It's not the sort of standard things that the other people who are working in the healthcare space with splunk are working with. We are working with imaging data. We are working with patient bedside telemetry data, you know the EKG signals and the heart rate signals. And aggregating all this stuff in to one place to make more sensible alerts and alarms. Oh this patient set off an alarm three times in the last hour I should send a page to the nurse who is taking care of this person. It's different that the kind of business optimism that I think a lot of people in the healthcare space are using splunk for. >> SO you have your core mission around diagnostic imaging. As we sort of touched on you have all these other peripheral factors in your industry. The affordable care act, obviously there's HIPPA, there's EMR, there's meaningful use. How much does that affect your mission? Does it get in the way? Is it something you have to be cognizant of like constantly, obviously HIPPA. Other factors? >> I try to just be cognoscente, I try not to let anything get in my way. Almost all of these things that you talk about they're really meant to protect the patient. I make sure that everything that I do is working with data is that we are anonymizing things, were using data securely, and we are trying to help the patients. I think I just have this moral check in my head of what is what I am doing right now good for my department, good for my institution, good for my patient. Then because I am aware of all these other rules they are very complicated and hard to navigate. At the end of the day I can say I understood that rule, I followed that rule, and what I did was the appropriate thing to do. >> It's like house rules. >> Yeah >> Okay, talk a little bit more about splunk, how are you using it, what it does for your mission, for your operation. >> What I came to the conference this year to talk about is this dose management system that we built that I think is really important. We've had vendors coming in and telling us that medicare isn't going to pay hospitals, or is going to reduce reimbursement to hospitals who can't prove that they're using ionizing radiation imaging appropriately. So what does that mean? No body quite knows exactly what that means. How do I tell whether my hospital is adhering to these rules that are ill defined and these vendors are coming in and they're trying to sell us solutions that are like a hundred thousand dollar a year licenses. Administration is taking this seriously, they're trying to figure out which of these vendors are we going to give money to. In the mean time a bunch of the CT technology staff and I basically put together a system that answers all these questions for them using Splunk. We use splunk to collect meta information about how all the scanners system wide are being use. We have 12 CT scanners, they shoot 90,000 different studies every year. Each one of those studies may be hundreds or even thousands of slices of data in these volumetric data sets. It's a huge amount of data to keep track of. Your not using Splunk to keep track of the imaging per se. Your using splunk to keep track of what imaging you collected. So it is a small fraction, it is just the metadata about each one of the studies. That metadata comes with a bunch of interesting information about what the radiation exposure for each one of those studies was. Splunk has these wonderfully adaptable easy to use tools. That once we covert our strange dicom, device independent communications in medicine data, we flatten it, normalize it, turn it into generic data, it is Json, it's dictionary files. Then splunk has these great tools that can be applied instead of to business analytics and optimization to image analytics and optimization. We build our dashboards on top of splunk to show per institution what was the average dose? Per protocol, per body type, you can track which technologist have the lower doses and higher doses. We found all kinds of interesting things. My favorite story the chief technologist was just telling me. I was putting together my slides for this presentation that I did here about this. I said we need an example of a does outlier. Some time when we had a higher than expected radiation event. We never have dangerously high radiation events. >> Good caveat, thank you. >> All the machines care about is whether you're harming some one and we never harm anyone. The machines don't track, this one is a little higher than you would expect it so that you can say why is that, what happened there? But now we do using our splunk dashboards. So I asked him can you get me an example for my slide deck. He literally just looked over to the monitor that he had open and he says oh right here. Here is a patient who had a 69. These numbers are irrelevant, they're supposed to be 50. He knows what the numbers are supposed to be, to me numbers are just numbers. This patient had a 69 and he picks up the phone, this was 5 minutes ago, he calls down to the control room. He says I'm not blaming anyone but why did Mrs So and So have a little bit higher radiation dose? 69 is not dangerous by the way, alarms don't go off until like 75 or 80 or something like that. So he just called and he asked what was going on with this patient. She had a dislocated arm. Okay I understand. This was a head scan, I was like Scott what does a dislocated arm have to do with a head scan? He said well she went through the CT bore with her arm up over her head which is not the way but it was the only way she would tolerate. So the CT thought she was this big and it had to raise the amount of radiation that it was putting into her to go through a larger object. So he documented that, he put it down, and again we used splunk for ticketing for outlier identification. So he put this one into the outlier identification database that we have, he picked other for the reason because we don't have a drop down menu with dislocated arm. Marked it as closed and it is justified, so when the JCO Joint commission on hospital accreditation comes trough and they say well what do you do to manage your higher than expected radiation exposures? We can both say well we never have unsafe radiation exposures it is all documented right here. When it is higher than usual this is the way we document it, and here are examples of ten or twenty of these odd instances where something happened. Either it was completely justified like this lady where the machines were used appropriately, that was appropriate. Or very occasionally we'll find something strange like an improper head holder was being used at one site for a while. It was resulting in these head CT's should usually be around 45 or 50 and instead they were 55 or 60. They went and they took the metal head holder and replaced it with a carbon fiber head holder that they should have been using and then all of a sudden our doses came down, and we documented it. >> It was a dislocated arm, let's leave it at that alright and we are happy with that. Derek thanks for being with us >> Oh absolutely >> Appreciate the time here on the cube and glad to have you here. Continued good luck with your work at Rhode Island. >> Thank you very much, you guys have a good day. >> Very good thank you. Derek Merck joining us here on the cube. We'll continue live from Washington DC right after this. (upbeat music)