(upbeat music) >> Hello, everyone, welcome to theCUBE. I'm John Furrier, the host of theCUBE in Palo Alto, California. Also it's SiliconANGLE News. Got two great guests here to talk about AI, the impact of the future of the internet, the applications, the people. Amr Awadallah, the founder and CEO, Ed Alban is the CEO of Vectara, a new startup that emerged out of the original Cloudera, I would say, 'cause Amr's known, famous for the Cloudera founding, which was really the beginning of the big data movement. And now as AI goes mainstream, there's so much to talk about, so much to go on. And plus the new company is one of the, now what I call the wave, this next big wave, I call it the fifth wave in the industry. You know, you had PCs, you had the internet, you had mobile. This generative AI thing is real. And you're starting to see startups come out in droves. Amr obviously was founder of Cloudera, Big Data, and now Vectara. And Ed Albanese, you guys have a new company. Welcome to the show. >> Thank you. It's great to be here. >> So great to see you. Now the story is theCUBE started in the Cloudera office. Thanks to you, and your friendly entrepreneurship views that you have. We got to know each other over the years. But Cloudera had Hadoop, which was the beginning of what I call the big data wave, which then became what we now call data lakes, data oceans, and data infrastructure that's developed from that. It's almost interesting to look back 12 plus years, and see that what AI is doing now, right now, is opening up the eyes to the mainstream, and the application's almost mind blowing. You know, Sati Natel called it the Mosaic Moment, didn't say Netscape, he built Netscape (laughing) but called it the Mosaic Moment. You're seeing companies in startups, kind of the alpha geeks running here, because this is the new frontier, and there's real meat on the bone, in terms of like things to do. Why? Why is this happening now? What's is the confluence of the forces happening, that are making this happen? >> Yeah, I mean if you go back to the Cloudera days, with big data, and so on, that was more about data processing. Like how can we process data, so we can extract numbers from it, and do reporting, and maybe take some actions, like this is a fraud transaction, or this is not. And in the meanwhile, many of the researchers working in the neural network, and deep neural network space, were trying to focus on data understanding, like how can I understand the data, and learn from it, so I can take actual actions, based on the data directly, just like a human does. And we were only good at doing that at the level of somebody who was five years old, or seven years old, all the way until about 2013. And starting in 2013, which is only 10 years ago, a number of key innovations started taking place, and each one added on. It was no major innovation that just took place. It was a couple of really incremental ones, but they added on top of each other, in a very exponentially additive way, that led to, by the end of 2019, we now have models, deep neural network models, that can read and understand human text just like we do. Right? And they can reason about it, and argue with you, and explain it to you. And I think that's what is unlocking this whole new wave of innovation that we're seeing right now. So data understanding would be the essence of it. >> So it's not a Big Bang kind of theory, it's been evolving over time, and I think that the tipping point has been the advancements and other things. I mean look at cloud computing, and look how fast it just crept up on AWS. I mean AWS you back three, five years ago, I was talking to Swami yesterday, and their big news about AI, expanding the Hugging Face's relationship with AWS. And just three, five years ago, there wasn't a model training models out there. But as compute comes out, and you got more horsepower,, these large language models, these foundational models, they're flexible, they're not monolithic silos, they're interacting. There's a whole new, almost fusion of data happening. Do you see that? I mean is that part of this? >> Of course, of course. I mean this wave is building on all the previous waves. We wouldn't be at this point if we did not have hardware that can scale, in a very efficient way. We wouldn't be at this point, if we don't have data that we're collecting about everything we do, that we're able to process in this way. So this, this movement, this motion, this phase we're in, absolutely builds on the shoulders of all the previous phases. For some of the observers from the outside, when they see chatGPT for the first time, for them was like, "Oh my god, this just happened overnight." Like it didn't happen overnight. (laughing) GPT itself, like GPT3, which is what chatGPT is based on, was released a year ahead of chatGPT, and many of us were seeing the power it can provide, and what it can do. I don't know if Ed agrees with that. >> Yeah, Ed? >> I do. Although I would acknowledge that the possibilities now, because of what we've hit from a maturity standpoint, have just opened up in an incredible way, that just wasn't tenable even three years ago. And that's what makes it, it's true that it developed incrementally, in the same way that, you know, the possibilities of a mobile handheld device, you know, in 2006 were there, but when the iPhone came out, the possibilities just exploded. And that's the moment we're in. >> Well, I've had many conversations over the past couple months around this area with chatGPT. John Markoff told me the other day, that he calls it, "The five dollar toy," because it's not that big of a deal, in context to what AI's doing behind the scenes, and all the work that's done on ethics, that's happened over the years, but it has woken up the mainstream, so everyone immediately jumps to ethics. "Does it work? "It's not factual," And everyone who's inside the industry is like, "This is amazing." 'Cause you have two schools of thought there. One's like, people that think this is now the beginning of next gen, this is now we're here, this ain't your grandfather's chatbot, okay?" With NLP, it's got reasoning, it's got other things. >> I'm in that camp for sure. >> Yeah. Well I mean, everyone who knows what's going on is in that camp. And as the naysayers start to get through this, and they go, "Wow, it's not just plagiarizing homework, "it's helping me be better. "Like it could rewrite my memo, "bring the lead to the top." It's so the format of the user interface is interesting, but it's still a data-driven app. >> Absolutely. >> So where does it go from here? 'Cause I'm not even calling this the first ending. This is like pregame, in my opinion. What do you guys see this going, in terms of scratching the surface to what happens next? >> I mean, I'll start with, I just don't see how an application is going to look the same in the next three years. Who's going to want to input data manually, in a form field? Who is going to want, or expect, to have to put in some text in a search box, and then read through 15 different possibilities, and try to figure out which one of them actually most closely resembles the question they asked? You know, I don't see that happening. Who's going to start with an absolute blank sheet of paper, and expect no help? That is not how an application will work in the next three years, and it's going to fundamentally change how people interact and spend time with opening any element on their mobile phone, or on their computer, to get something done. >> Yes. I agree with that. Like every single application, over the next five years, will be rewritten, to fit within this model. So imagine an HR application, I don't want to name companies, but imagine an HR application, and you go into application and you clicking on buttons, because you want to take two weeks of vacation, and menus, and clicking here and there, reasons and managers, versus just telling the system, "I'm taking two weeks of vacation, going to Las Vegas," book it, done. >> Yeah. >> And the system just does it for you. If you weren't completing in your input, in your description, for what you want, then the system asks you back, "Did you mean this? "Did you mean that? "Were you trying to also do this as well?" >> Yeah. >> "What was the reason?" And that will fit it for you, and just do it for you. So I think the user interface that we have with apps, is going to change to be very similar to the user interface that we have with each other. And that's why all these apps will need to evolve. >> I know we don't have a lot of time, 'cause you guys are very busy, but I want to definitely have multiple segments with you guys, on this topic, because there's so much to talk about. There's a lot of parallels going on here. I was talking again with Swami who runs all the AI database at AWS, and I asked him, I go, "This feels a lot like the original AWS. "You don't have to provision a data center." A lot of this heavy lifting on the back end, is these large language models, with these foundational models. So the bottleneck in the past, was the energy, and cost to actually do it. Now you're seeing it being stood up faster. So there's definitely going to be a tsunami of apps. I would see that clearly. What is it? We don't know yet. But also people who are going to leverage the fact that I can get started building value. So I see a startup boom coming, and I see an application tsunami of refactoring things. >> Yes. >> So the replatforming is already kind of happening. >> Yes, >> OpenAI, chatGPT, whatever. So that's going to be a developer environment. I mean if Amazon turns this into an API, or a Microsoft, what you guys are doing. >> We're turning it into API as well. That's part of what we're doing as well, yes. >> This is why this is exciting. Amr, you've lived the big data dream, and and we used to talk, if you didn't have a big data problem, if you weren't full of data, you weren't really getting it. Now people have all the data, and they got to stand this up. >> Yeah. >> So the analogy is again, the mobile, I like the mobile movement, and using mobile as an analogy, most companies were not building for a mobile environment, right? They were just building for the web, and legacy way of doing apps. And as soon as the user expectations shifted, that my expectation now, I need to be able to do my job on this small screen, on the mobile device with a touchscreen. Everybody had to invest in re-architecting, and re-implementing every single app, to fit within that model, and that model of interaction. And we are seeing the exact same thing happen now. And one of the core things we're focused on at Vectara, is how to simplify that for organizations, because a lot of them are overwhelmed by large language models, and ML. >> They don't have the staff. >> Yeah, yeah, yeah. They're understaffed, they don't have the skills. >> But they got developers, they've got DevOps, right? >> Yes. >> So they have the DevSecOps going on. >> Exactly, yes. >> So our goal is to simplify it enough for them that they can start leveraging this technology effectively, within their applications. >> Ed, you're the COO of the company, obviously a startup. You guys are growing. You got great backup, and good team. You've also done a lot of business development, and technical business development in this area. If you look at the landscape right now, and I agree the apps are coming, every company I talk to, that has that jet chatGPT of, you know, epiphany, "Oh my God, look how cool this is. "Like magic." Like okay, it's code, settle down. >> Mm hmm. >> But everyone I talk to is using it in a very horizontal way. I talk to a very senior person, very tech alpha geek, very senior person in the industry, technically. they're using it for log data, they're using it for configuration of routers. And in other areas, they're using it for, every vertical has a use case. So this is horizontally scalable from a use case standpoint. When you hear horizontally scalable, first thing I chose in my mind is cloud, right? >> Mm hmm. >> So cloud, and scalability that way. And the data is very specialized. So now you have this vertical specialization, horizontally scalable, everyone will be refactoring. What do you see, and what are you seeing from customers, that you talk to, and prospects? >> Yeah, I mean put yourself in the shoes of an application developer, who is actually trying to make their application a bit more like magic. And to have that soon-to-be, honestly, expected experience. They've got to think about things like performance, and how efficiently that they can actually execute a query, or a question. They've got to think about cost. Generative isn't cheap, like the inference of it. And so you've got to be thoughtful about how and when you take advantage of it, you can't use it as a, you know, everything looks like a nail, and I've got a hammer, and I'm going to hit everything with it, because that will be wasteful. Developers also need to think about how they're going to take advantage of, but not lose their own data. So there has to be some controls around what they feed into the large language model, if anything. Like, should they fine tune a large language model with their own data? Can they keep it logically separated, but still take advantage of the powers of a large language model? And they've also got to take advantage, and be aware of the fact that when data is generated, that it is a different class of data. It might not fully be their own. >> Yeah. >> And it may not even be fully verified. And so when the logical cycle starts, of someone making a request, the relationship between that request, and the output, those things have to be stored safely, logically, and identified as such. >> Yeah. >> And taken advantage of in an ongoing fashion. So these are mega problems, each one of them independently, that, you know, you can think of it as middleware companies need to take advantage of, and think about, to help the next wave of application development be logical, sensible, and effective. It's not just calling some raw API on the cloud, like openAI, and then just, you know, you get your answer and you're done, because that is a very brute force approach. >> Well also I will point, first of all, I agree with your statement about the apps experience, that's going to be expected, form filling. Great point. The interesting about chatGPT. >> Sorry, it's not just form filling, it's any action you would like to take. >> Yeah. >> Instead of clicking, and dragging, and dropping, and doing it on a menu, or on a touch screen, you just say it, and it's and it happens perfectly. >> Yeah. It's a different interface. And that's why I love that UIUX experiences, that's the people falling out of their chair moment with chatGPT, right? But a lot of the things with chatGPT, if you feed it right, it works great. If you feed it wrong and it goes off the rails, it goes off the rails big. >> Yes, yes. >> So the the Bing catastrophes. >> Yeah. >> And that's an example of garbage in, garbage out, classic old school kind of comp-side phrase that we all use. >> Yep. >> Yes. >> This is about data in injection, right? It reminds me the old SQL days, if you had to, if you can sling some SQL, you were a magician, you know, to get the right answer, it's pretty much there. So you got to feed the AI. >> You do, Some people call this, the early word to describe this as prompt engineering. You know, old school, you know, search, or, you know, engagement with data would be, I'm going to, I have a question or I have a query. New school is, I have, I have to issue it a prompt, because I'm trying to get, you know, an action or a reaction, from the system. And the active engineering, there are a lot of different ways you could do it, all the way from, you know, raw, just I'm going to send you whatever I'm thinking. >> Yeah. >> And you get the unintended outcomes, to more constrained, where I'm going to just use my own data, and I'm going to constrain the initial inputs, the data I already know that's first party, and I trust, to, you know, hyper constrain, where the application is actually, it's looking for certain elements to respond to. >> It's interesting Amr, this is why I love this, because one we are in the media, we're recording this video now, we'll stream it. But we got all your linguistics, we're talking. >> Yes. >> This is data. >> Yep. >> So the data quality becomes now the new intellectual property, because, if you have that prompt source data, it makes data or content, in our case, the original content, intellectual property. >> Absolutely. >> Because that's the value. And that's where you see chatGPT fall down, is because they're trying to scroll the web, and people think it's search. It's not necessarily search, it's giving you something that you wanted. It is a lot of that, I remember in Cloudera, you said, "Ask the right questions." Remember that phrase you guys had, that slogan? >> Mm hmm. And that's prompt engineering. So that's exactly, that's the reinvention of "Ask the right question," is prompt engineering is, if you don't give these models the question in the right way, and very few people know how to frame it in the right way with the right context, then you will get garbage out. Right? That is the garbage in, garbage out. But if you specify the question correctly, and you provide with it the metadata that constrain what that question is going to be acted upon or answered upon, then you'll get much better answers. And that's exactly what we solved Vectara. >> Okay. So before we get into the last couple minutes we have left, I want to make sure we get a plug in for the opportunity, and the profile of Vectara, your new company. Can you guys both share with me what you think the current situation is? So for the folks who are now having those moments of, "Ah, AI's bullshit," or, "It's not real, it's a lot of stuff," from, "Oh my god, this is magic," to, "Okay, this is the future." >> Yes. >> What would you say to that person, if you're at a cocktail party, or in the elevator say, "Calm down, this is the first inning." How do you explain the dynamics going on right now, to someone who's either in the industry, but not in the ropes? How would you explain like, what this wave's about? How would you describe it, and how would you prepare them for how to change their life around this? >> Yeah, so I'll go first and then I'll let Ed go. Efficiency, efficiency is the description. So we figured that a way to be a lot more efficient, a way where you can write a lot more emails, create way more content, create way more presentations. Developers can develop 10 times faster than they normally would. And that is very similar to what happened during the Industrial Revolution. I always like to look at examples from the past, to read what will happen now, and what will happen in the future. So during the Industrial Revolution, it was about efficiency with our hands, right? So I had to make a piece of cloth, like this piece of cloth for this shirt I'm wearing. Our ancestors, they had to spend month taking the cotton, making it into threads, taking the threads, making them into pieces of cloth, and then cutting it. And now a machine makes it just like that, right? And the ancestors now turned from the people that do the thing, to manage the machines that do the thing. And I think the same thing is going to happen now, is our efficiency will be multiplied extremely, as human beings, and we'll be able to do a lot more. And many of us will be able to do things they couldn't do before. So another great example I always like to use is the example of Google Maps, and GPS. Very few of us knew how to drive a car from one location to another, and read a map, and get there correctly. But once that efficiency of an AI, by the way, behind these things is very, very complex AI, that figures out how to do that for us. All of us now became amazing navigators that can go from any point to any point. So that's kind of how I look at the future. >> And that's a great real example of impact. Ed, your take on how you would talk to a friend, or colleague, or anyone who asks like, "How do I make sense of the current situation? "Is it real? "What's in it for me, and what do I do?" I mean every company's rethinking their business right now, around this. What would you say to them? >> You know, I usually like to show, rather than describe. And so, you know, the other day I just got access, I've been using an application for a long time, called Notion, and it's super popular. There's like 30 or 40 million users. And the new version of Notion came out, which has AI embedded within it. And it's AI that allows you primarily to create. So if you could break down the world of AI into find and create, for a minute, just kind of logically separate those two things, find is certainly going to be massively impacted in our experiences as consumers on, you know, Google and Bing, and I can't believe I just said the word Bing in the same sentence as Google, but that's what's happening now (all laughing), because it's a good example of change. >> Yes. >> But also inside the business. But on the crate side, you know, Notion is a wiki product, where you try to, you know, note down things that you are thinking about, or you want to share and memorialize. But sometimes you do need help to get it down fast. And just in the first day of using this new product, like my experience has really fundamentally changed. And I think that anybody who would, you know, anybody say for example, that is using an existing app, I would show them, open up the app. Now imagine the possibility of getting a starting point right off the bat, in five seconds of, instead of having to whole cloth draft this thing, imagine getting a starting point then you can modify and edit, or just dispose of and retry again. And that's the potential for me. I can't imagine a scenario where, in a few years from now, I'm going to be satisfied if I don't have a little bit of help, in the same way that I don't manually spell check every email that I send. I automatically spell check it. I love when I'm getting type ahead support inside of Google, or anything. Doesn't mean I always take it, or when texting. >> That's efficiency too. I mean the cloud was about developers getting stuff up quick. >> Exactly. >> All that heavy lifting is there for you, so you don't have to do it. >> Right? >> And you get to the value faster. >> Exactly. I mean, if history taught us one thing, it's, you have to always embrace efficiency, and if you don't fast enough, you will fall behind. Again, looking at the industrial revolution, the companies that embraced the industrial revolution, they became the leaders in the world, and the ones who did not, they all like. >> Well the AI thing that we got to watch out for, is watching how it goes off the rails. If it doesn't have the right prompt engineering, or data architecture, infrastructure. >> Yes. >> It's a big part. So this comes back down to your startup, real quick, I know we got a couple minutes left. Talk about the company, the motivation, and we'll do a deeper dive on on the company. But what's the motivation? What are you targeting for the market, business model? The tech, let's go. >> Actually, I would like Ed to go first. Go ahead. >> Sure, I mean, we're a developer-first, API-first platform. So the product is oriented around allowing developers who may not be superstars, in being able to either leverage, or choose, or select their own large language models for appropriate use cases. But they that want to be able to instantly add the power of large language models into their application set. We started with search, because we think it's going to be one of the first places that people try to take advantage of large language models, to help find information within an application context. And we've built our own large language models, focused on making it very efficient, and elegant, to find information more quickly. So what a developer can do is, within minutes, go up, register for an account, and get access to a set of APIs, that allow them to send data, to be converted into a format that's easy to understand for large language models, vectors. And then secondarily, they can issue queries, ask questions. And they can ask them very, the questions that can be asked, are very natural language questions. So we're talking about long form sentences, you know, drill down types of questions, and they can get answers that either come back in depending upon the form factor of the user interface, in list form, or summarized form, where summarized equals the opportunity to kind of see a condensed, singular answer. >> All right. I have a. >> Oh okay, go ahead, you go. >> I was just going to say, I'm going to be a customer for you, because I want, my dream was to have a hologram of theCUBE host, me and Dave, and have questions be generated in the metaverse. So you know. (all laughing) >> There'll be no longer any guests here. They'll all be talking to you guys. >> Give a couple bullets, I'll spit out 10 good questions. Publish a story. This brings the automation, I'm sorry to interrupt you. >> No, no. No, no, I was just going to follow on on the same. So another way to look at exactly what Ed described is, we want to offer you chatGPT for your own data, right? So imagine taking all of the recordings of all of the interviews you have done, and having all of the content of that being ingested by a system, where you can now have a conversation with your own data and say, "Oh, last time when I met Amr, "which video games did we talk about? "Which movie or book did we use as an analogy "for how we should be embracing data science, "and big data, which is moneyball," I know you use moneyball all the time. And you start having that conversation. So, now the data doesn't become a passive asset that you just have in your organization. No. It's an active participant that's sitting with you, on the table, helping you make decisions. >> One of my favorite things to do with customers, is to go to their site or application, and show them me using it. So for example, one of the customers I talked to was one of the biggest property management companies in the world, that lets people go and rent homes, and houses, and things like that. And you know, I went and I showed them me searching through reviews, looking for information, and trying different words, and trying to find out like, you know, is this place quiet? Is it comfortable? And then I put all the same data into our platform, and I showed them the world of difference you can have when you start asking that question wholeheartedly, and getting real information that doesn't have anything to do with the words you asked, but is really focused on the meaning. You know, when I asked like, "Is it quiet?" You know, answers would come back like, "The wind whispered through the trees peacefully," and you know, it's like nothing to do with quiet in the literal word sense, but in the meaning sense, everything to do with it. And that that was magical even for them, to see that. >> Well you guys are the front end of this big wave. Congratulations on the startup, Amr. I know you guys got great pedigree in big data, and you've got a great team, and congratulations. Vectara is the name of the company, check 'em out. Again, the startup boom is coming. This will be one of the major waves, generative AI is here. I think we'll look back, and it will be pointed out as a major inflection point in the industry. >> Absolutely. >> There's not a lot of hype behind that. People are are seeing it, experts are. So it's going to be fun, thanks for watching. >> Thanks John. (soft music)

(upbeat music beginning) >> From the Cube Studios in Palo Alto and Boston, bringing you data-driven insights from the Cube and ETR, this is "Breaking Analysis" with Dave Vellante. >> Making predictions about the future of enterprise tech is more challenging if you strive to lay down forecasts that are measurable. In other words, if you make a prediction, you should be able to look back a year later and say, with some degree of certainty, whether the prediction came true or not, with evidence to back that up. Hello and welcome to this week's Wikibon Cube Insights, powered by ETR. In this breaking analysis, we aim to do just that, with predictions about the macro IT spending environment, cost optimization, security, lots to talk about there, generative AI, cloud, and of course supercloud, blockchain adoption, data platforms, including commentary on Databricks, snowflake, and other key players, automation, events, and we may even have some bonus predictions around quantum computing, and perhaps some other areas. To make all this happen, we welcome back, for the third year in a row, my colleague and friend Eric Bradley from ETR. Eric, thanks for all you do for the community, and thanks for being part of this program. Again. >> I wouldn't miss it for the world. I always enjoy this one. Dave, good to see you. >> Yeah, so let me bring up this next slide and show you, actually come back to me if you would. I got to show the audience this. These are the inbounds that we got from PR firms starting in October around predictions. They know we do prediction posts. And so they'll send literally thousands and thousands of predictions from hundreds of experts in the industry, technologists, consultants, et cetera. And if you bring up the slide I can show you sort of the pattern that developed here. 40% of these thousands of predictions were from cyber. You had AI and data. If you combine those, it's still not close to cyber. Cost optimization was a big thing. Of course, cloud, some on DevOps, and software. Digital... Digital transformation got, you know, some lip service and SaaS. And then there was other, it's kind of around 2%. So quite remarkable, when you think about the focus on cyber, Eric. >> Yeah, there's two reasons why I think it makes sense, though. One, the cybersecurity companies have a lot of cash, so therefore the PR firms might be working a little bit harder for them than some of their other clients. (laughs) And then secondly, as you know, for multiple years now, when we do our macro survey, we ask, "What's your number one spending priority?" And again, it's security. It just isn't going anywhere. It just stays at the top. So I'm actually not that surprised by that little pie chart there, but I was shocked that SaaS was only 5%. You know, going back 10 years ago, that would've been the only thing anyone was talking about. >> Yeah. So true. All right, let's get into it. First prediction, we always start with kind of tech spending. Number one is tech spending increases between four and 5%. ETR has currently got it at 4.6% coming into 2023. This has been a consistently downward trend all year. We started, you know, much, much higher as we've been reporting. Bottom line is the fed is still in control. They're going to ease up on tightening, is the expectation, they're going to shoot for a soft landing. But you know, my feeling is this slingshot economy is going to continue, and it's going to continue to confound, whether it's supply chains or spending. The, the interesting thing about the ETR data, Eric, and I want you to comment on this, the largest companies are the most aggressive to cut. They're laying off, smaller firms are spending faster. They're actually growing at a much larger, faster rate as are companies in EMEA. And that's a surprise. That's outpacing the US and APAC. Chime in on this, Eric. >> Yeah, I was surprised on all of that. First on the higher level spending, we are definitely seeing it coming down, but the interesting thing here is headlines are making it worse. The huge research shop recently said 0% growth. We're coming in at 4.6%. And just so everyone knows, this is not us guessing, we asked 1,525 IT decision-makers what their budget growth will be, and they came in at 4.6%. Now there's a huge disparity, as you mentioned. The Fortune 500, global 2000, barely at 2% growth, but small, it's at 7%. So we're at a situation right now where the smaller companies are still playing a little bit of catch up on digital transformation, and they're spending money. The largest companies that have the most to lose from a recession are being more trepidatious, obviously. So they're playing a "Wait and see." And I hope we don't talk ourselves into a recession. Certainly the headlines and some of their research shops are helping it along. But another interesting comment here is, you know, energy and utilities used to be called an orphan and widow stock group, right? They are spending more than anyone, more than financials insurance, more than retail consumer. So right now it's being driven by mid, small, and energy and utilities. They're all spending like gangbusters, like nothing's happening. And it's the rest of everyone else that's being very cautious. >> Yeah, so very unpredictable right now. All right, let's go to number two. Cost optimization remains a major theme in 2023. We've been reporting on this. You've, we've shown a chart here. What's the primary method that your organization plans to use? You asked this question of those individuals that cited that they were going to reduce their spend and- >> Mhm. >> consolidating redundant vendors, you know, still leads the way, you know, far behind, cloud optimization is second, but it, but cloud continues to outpace legacy on-prem spending, no doubt. Somebody, it was, the guy's name was Alexander Feiglstorfer from Storyblok, sent in a prediction, said "All in one becomes extinct." Now, generally I would say I disagree with that because, you know, as we know over the years, suites tend to win out over, you know, individual, you know, point products. But I think what's going to happen is all in one is going to remain the norm for these larger companies that are cutting back. They want to consolidate redundant vendors, and the smaller companies are going to stick with that best of breed and be more aggressive and try to compete more effectively. What's your take on that? >> Yeah, I'm seeing much more consolidation in vendors, but also consolidation in functionality. We're seeing people building out new functionality, whether it's, we're going to talk about this later, so I don't want to steal too much of our thunder right now, but data and security also, we're seeing a functionality creep. So I think there's further consolidation happening here. I think niche solutions are going to be less likely, and platform solutions are going to be more likely in a spending environment where you want to reduce your vendors. You want to have one bill to pay, not 10. Another thing on this slide, real quick if I can before I move on, is we had a bunch of people write in and some of the answer options that aren't on this graph but did get cited a lot, unfortunately, is the obvious reduction in staff, hiring freezes, and delaying hardware, were three of the top write-ins. And another one was offshore outsourcing. So in addition to what we're seeing here, there were a lot of write-in options, and I just thought it would be important to state that, but essentially the cost optimization is by and far the highest one, and it's growing. So it's actually increased in our citations over the last year. >> And yeah, specifically consolidating redundant vendors. And so I actually thank you for bringing that other up, 'cause I had asked you, Eric, is there any evidence that repatriation is going on and we don't see it in the numbers, we don't see it even in the other, there was, I think very little or no mention of cloud repatriation, even though it might be happening in this in a smattering. >> Not a single mention, not one single mention. I went through it for you. Yep. Not one write-in. >> All right, let's move on. Number three, security leads M&A in 2023. Now you might say, "Oh, well that's a layup," but let me set this up Eric, because I didn't really do a great job with the slide. I hid the, what you've done, because you basically took, this is from the emerging technology survey with 1,181 responses from November. And what we did is we took Palo Alto and looked at the overlap in Palo Alto Networks accounts with these vendors that were showing on this chart. And Eric, I'm going to ask you to explain why we put a circle around OneTrust, but let me just set it up, and then have you comment on the slide and take, give us more detail. We're seeing private company valuations are off, you know, 10 to 40%. We saw a sneak, do a down round, but pretty good actually only down 12%. We've seen much higher down rounds. Palo Alto Networks we think is going to get busy. Again, they're an inquisitive company, they've been sort of quiet lately, and we think CrowdStrike, Cisco, Microsoft, Zscaler, we're predicting all of those will make some acquisitions and we're thinking that the targets are somewhere in this mess of security taxonomy. Other thing we're predicting AI meets cyber big time in 2023, we're going to probably going to see some acquisitions of those companies that are leaning into AI. We've seen some of that with Palo Alto. And then, you know, your comment to me, Eric, was "The RSA conference is going to be insane, hopping mad, "crazy this April," (Eric laughing) but give us your take on this data, and why the red circle around OneTrust? Take us back to that slide if you would, Alex. >> Sure. There's a few things here. First, let me explain what we're looking at. So because we separate the public companies and the private companies into two separate surveys, this allows us the ability to cross-reference that data. So what we're doing here is in our public survey, the tesis, everyone who cited some spending with Palo Alto, meaning they're a Palo Alto customer, we then cross-reference that with the private tech companies. Who also are they spending with? So what you're seeing here is an overlap. These companies that we have circled are doing the best in Palo Alto's accounts. Now, Palo Alto went and bought Twistlock a few years ago, which this data slide predicted, to be quite honest. And so I don't know if they necessarily are going to go after Snyk. Snyk, sorry. They already have something in that space. What they do need, however, is more on the authentication space. So I'm looking at OneTrust, with a 45% overlap in their overall net sentiment. That is a company that's already existing in their accounts and could be very synergistic to them. BeyondTrust as well, authentication identity. This is something that Palo needs to do to move more down that zero trust path. Now why did I pick Palo first? Because usually they're very inquisitive. They've been a little quiet lately. Secondly, if you look at the backdrop in the markets, the IPO freeze isn't going to last forever. Sooner or later, the IPO markets are going to open up, and some of these private companies are going to tap into public equity. In the meantime, however, cash funding on the private side is drying up. If they need another round, they're not going to get it, and they're certainly not going to get it at the valuations they were getting. So we're seeing valuations maybe come down where they're a touch more attractive, and Palo knows this isn't going to last forever. Cisco knows that, CrowdStrike, Zscaler, all these companies that are trying to make a push to become that vendor that you're consolidating in, around, they have a chance now, they have a window where they need to go make some acquisitions. And that's why I believe leading up to RSA, we're going to see some movement. I think it's going to pretty, a really exciting time in security right now. >> Awesome. Thank you. Great explanation. All right, let's go on the next one. Number four is, it relates to security. Let's stay there. Zero trust moves from hype to reality in 2023. Now again, you might say, "Oh yeah, that's a layup." A lot of these inbounds that we got are very, you know, kind of self-serving, but we always try to put some meat in the bone. So first thing we do is we pull out some commentary from, Eric, your roundtable, your insights roundtable. And we have a CISO from a global hospitality firm says, "For me that's the highest priority." He's talking about zero trust because it's the best ROI, it's the most forward-looking, and it enables a lot of the business transformation activities that we want to do. CISOs tell me that they actually can drive forward transformation projects that have zero trust, and because they can accelerate them, because they don't have to go through the hurdle of, you know, getting, making sure that it's secure. Second comment, zero trust closes that last mile where once you're authenticated, they open up the resource to you in a zero trust way. That's a CISO of a, and a managing director of a cyber risk services enterprise. Your thoughts on this? >> I can be here all day, so I'm going to try to be quick on this one. This is not a fluff piece on this one. There's a couple of other reasons this is happening. One, the board finally gets it. Zero trust at first was just a marketing hype term. Now the board understands it, and that's why CISOs are able to push through it. And what they finally did was redefine what it means. Zero trust simply means moving away from hardware security, moving towards software-defined security, with authentication as its base. The board finally gets that, and now they understand that this is necessary and it's being moved forward. The other reason it's happening now is hybrid work is here to stay. We weren't really sure at first, large companies were still trying to push people back to the office, and it's going to happen. The pendulum will swing back, but hybrid work's not going anywhere. By basically on our own data, we're seeing that 69% of companies expect remote and hybrid to be permanent, with only 30% permanent in office. Zero trust works for a hybrid environment. So all of that is the reason why this is happening right now. And going back to our previous prediction, this is why we're picking Palo, this is why we're picking Zscaler to make these acquisitions. Palo Alto needs to be better on the authentication side, and so does Zscaler. They're both fantastic on zero trust network access, but they need the authentication software defined aspect, and that's why we think this is going to happen. One last thing, in that CISO round table, I also had somebody say, "Listen, Zscaler is incredible. "They're doing incredibly well pervading the enterprise, "but their pricing's getting a little high," and they actually think Palo Alto is well-suited to start taking some of that share, if Palo can make one move. >> Yeah, Palo Alto's consolidation story is very strong. Here's my question and challenge. Do you and me, so I'm always hardcore about, okay, you've got to have evidence. I want to look back at these things a year from now and say, "Did we get it right? Yes or no?" If we got it wrong, we'll tell you we got it wrong. So how are we going to measure this? I'd say a couple things, and you can chime in. One is just the number of vendors talking about it. That's, but the marketing always leads the reality. So the second part of that is we got to get evidence from the buying community. Can you help us with that? >> (laughs) Luckily, that's what I do. I have a data company that asks thousands of IT decision-makers what they're adopting and what they're increasing spend on, as well as what they're decreasing spend on and what they're replacing. So I have snapshots in time over the last 11 years where I can go ahead and compare and contrast whether this adoption is happening or not. So come back to me in 12 months and I'll let you know. >> Now, you know, I will. Okay, let's bring up the next one. Number five, generative AI hits where the Metaverse missed. Of course everybody's talking about ChatGPT, we just wrote last week in a breaking analysis with John Furrier and Sarjeet Joha our take on that. We think 2023 does mark a pivot point as natural language processing really infiltrates enterprise tech just as Amazon turned the data center into an API. We think going forward, you're going to be interacting with technology through natural language, through English commands or other, you know, foreign language commands, and investors are lining up, all the VCs are getting excited about creating something competitive to ChatGPT, according to (indistinct) a hundred million dollars gets you a seat at the table, gets you into the game. (laughing) That's before you have to start doing promotion. But he thinks that's what it takes to actually create a clone or something equivalent. We've seen stuff from, you know, the head of Facebook's, you know, AI saying, "Oh, it's really not that sophisticated, ChatGPT, "it's kind of like IBM Watson, it's great engineering, "but you know, we've got more advanced technology." We know Google's working on some really interesting stuff. But here's the thing. ETR just launched this survey for the February survey. It's in the field now. We circle open AI in this category. They weren't even in the survey, Eric, last quarter. So 52% of the ETR survey respondents indicated a positive sentiment toward open AI. I added up all the sort of different bars, we could double click on that. And then I got this inbound from Scott Stevenson of Deep Graham. He said "AI is recession-proof." I don't know if that's the case, but it's a good quote. So bring this back up and take us through this. Explain this chart for us, if you would. >> First of all, I like Scott's quote better than the Facebook one. I think that's some sour grapes. Meta just spent an insane amount of money on the Metaverse and that's a dud. Microsoft just spent money on open AI and it is hot, undoubtedly hot. We've only been in the field with our current ETS survey for a week. So my caveat is it's preliminary data, but I don't care if it's preliminary data. (laughing) We're getting a sneak peek here at what is the number one net sentiment and mindshare leader in the entire machine-learning AI sector within a week. It's beating Data- >> 600. 600 in. >> It's beating Databricks. And we all know Databricks is a huge established enterprise company, not only in machine-learning AI, but it's in the top 10 in the entire survey. We have over 400 vendors in this survey. It's number eight overall, already. In a week. This is not hype. This is real. And I could go on the NLP stuff for a while. Not only here are we seeing it in open AI and machine-learning and AI, but we're seeing NLP in security. It's huge in email security. It's completely transforming that area. It's one of the reasons I thought Palo might take Abnormal out. They're doing such a great job with NLP in this email side, and also in the data prep tools. NLP is going to take out data prep tools. If we have time, I'll discuss that later. But yeah, this is, to me this is a no-brainer, and we're already seeing it in the data. >> Yeah, John Furrier called, you know, the ChatGPT introduction. He said it reminded him of the Netscape moment, when we all first saw Netscape Navigator and went, "Wow, it really could be transformative." All right, number six, the cloud expands to supercloud as edge computing accelerates and CloudFlare is a big winner in 2023. We've reported obviously on cloud, multi-cloud, supercloud and CloudFlare, basically saying what multi-cloud should have been. We pulled this quote from Atif Kahn, who is the founder and CTO of Alkira, thanks, one of the inbounds, thank you. "In 2023, highly distributed IT environments "will become more the norm "as organizations increasingly deploy hybrid cloud, "multi-cloud and edge settings..." Eric, from one of your round tables, "If my sources from edge computing are coming "from the cloud, that means I have my workloads "running in the cloud. "There is no one better than CloudFlare," That's a senior director of IT architecture at a huge financial firm. And then your analysis shows CloudFlare really growing in pervasion, that sort of market presence in the dataset, dramatically, to near 20%, leading, I think you had told me that they're even ahead of Google Cloud in terms of momentum right now. >> That was probably the biggest shock to me in our January 2023 tesis, which covers the public companies in the cloud computing sector. CloudFlare has now overtaken GCP in overall spending, and I was shocked by that. It's already extremely pervasive in networking, of course, for the edge networking side, and also in security. This is the number one leader in SaaSi, web access firewall, DDoS, bot protection, by your definition of supercloud, which we just did a couple of weeks ago, and I really enjoyed that by the way Dave, I think CloudFlare is the one that fits your definition best, because it's bringing all of these aspects together, and most importantly, it's cloud agnostic. It does not need to rely on Azure or AWS to do this. It has its own cloud. So I just think it's, when we look at your definition of supercloud, CloudFlare is the poster child. >> You know, what's interesting about that too, is a lot of people are poo-pooing CloudFlare, "Ah, it's, you know, really kind of not that sophisticated." "You don't have as many tools," but to your point, you're can have those tools in the cloud, Cloudflare's doing serverless on steroids, trying to keep things really simple, doing a phenomenal job at, you know, various locations around the world. And they're definitely one to watch. Somebody put them on my radar (laughing) a while ago and said, "Dave, you got to do a breaking analysis on CloudFlare." And so I want to thank that person. I can't really name them, 'cause they work inside of a giant hyperscaler. But- (Eric laughing) (Dave chuckling) >> Real quickly, if I can from a competitive perspective too, who else is there? They've already taken share from Akamai, and Fastly is their really only other direct comp, and they're not there. And these guys are in poll position and they're the only game in town right now. I just, I don't see it slowing down. >> I thought one of your comments from your roundtable I was reading, one of the folks said, you know, CloudFlare, if my workloads are in the cloud, they are, you know, dominant, they said not as strong with on-prem. And so Akamai is doing better there. I'm like, "Okay, where would you want to be?" (laughing) >> Yeah, which one of those two would you rather be? >> Right? Anyway, all right, let's move on. Number seven, blockchain continues to look for a home in the enterprise, but devs will slowly begin to adopt in 2023. You know, blockchains have got a lot of buzz, obviously crypto is, you know, the killer app for blockchain. Senior IT architect in financial services from your, one of your insight roundtables said quote, "For enterprises to adopt a new technology, "there have to be proven turnkey solutions. "My experience in talking with my peers are, "blockchain is still an open-source component "where you have to build around it." Now I want to thank Ravi Mayuram, who's the CTO of Couchbase sent in, you know, one of the predictions, he said, "DevOps will adopt blockchain, specifically Ethereum." And he referenced actually in his email to me, Solidity, which is the programming language for Ethereum, "will be in every DevOps pro's playbook, "mirroring the boom in machine-learning. "Newer programming languages like Solidity "will enter the toolkits of devs." His point there, you know, Solidity for those of you don't know, you know, Bitcoin is not programmable. Solidity, you know, came out and that was their whole shtick, and they've been improving that, and so forth. But it, Eric, it's true, it really hasn't found its home despite, you know, the potential for smart contracts. IBM's pushing it, VMware has had announcements, and others, really hasn't found its way in the enterprise yet. >> Yeah, and I got to be honest, I don't think it's going to, either. So when we did our top trends series, this was basically chosen as an anti-prediction, I would guess, that it just continues to not gain hold. And the reason why was that first comment, right? It's very much a niche solution that requires a ton of custom work around it. You can't just plug and play it. And at the end of the day, let's be very real what this technology is, it's a database ledger, and we already have database ledgers in the enterprise. So why is this a priority to move to a different database ledger? It's going to be very niche cases. I like the CTO comment from Couchbase about it being adopted by DevOps. I agree with that, but it has to be a DevOps in a very specific use case, and a very sophisticated use case in financial services, most likely. And that's not across the entire enterprise. So I just think it's still going to struggle to get its foothold for a little bit longer, if ever. >> Great, thanks. Okay, let's move on. Number eight, AWS Databricks, Google Snowflake lead the data charge with Microsoft. Keeping it simple. So let's unpack this a little bit. This is the shared accounts peer position for, I pulled data platforms in for analytics, machine-learning and AI and database. So I could grab all these accounts or these vendors and see how they compare in those three sectors. Analytics, machine-learning and database. Snowflake and Databricks, you know, they're on a crash course, as you and I have talked about. They're battling to be the single source of truth in analytics. They're, there's going to be a big focus. They're already started. It's going to be accelerated in 2023 on open formats. Iceberg, Python, you know, they're all the rage. We heard about Iceberg at Snowflake Summit, last summer or last June. Not a lot of people had heard of it, but of course the Databricks crowd, who knows it well. A lot of other open source tooling. There's a company called DBT Labs, which you're going to talk about in a minute. George Gilbert put them on our radar. We just had Tristan Handy, the CEO of DBT labs, on at supercloud last week. They are a new disruptor in data that's, they're essentially making, they're API-ifying, if you will, KPIs inside the data warehouse and dramatically simplifying that whole data pipeline. So really, you know, the ETL guys should be shaking in their boots with them. Coming back to the slide. Google really remains focused on BigQuery adoption. Customers have complained to me that they would like to use Snowflake with Google's AI tools, but they're being forced to go to BigQuery. I got to ask Google about that. AWS continues to stitch together its bespoke data stores, that's gone down that "Right tool for the right job" path. David Foyer two years ago said, "AWS absolutely is going to have to solve that problem." We saw them start to do it in, at Reinvent, bringing together NoETL between Aurora and Redshift, and really trying to simplify those worlds. There's going to be more of that. And then Microsoft, they're just making it cheap and easy to use their stuff, you know, despite some of the complaints that we hear in the community, you know, about things like Cosmos, but Eric, your take? >> Yeah, my concern here is that Snowflake and Databricks are fighting each other, and it's allowing AWS and Microsoft to kind of catch up against them, and I don't know if that's the right move for either of those two companies individually, Azure and AWS are building out functionality. Are they as good? No they're not. The other thing to remember too is that AWS and Azure get paid anyway, because both Databricks and Snowflake run on top of 'em. So (laughing) they're basically collecting their toll, while these two fight it out with each other, and they build out functionality. I think they need to stop focusing on each other, a little bit, and think about the overall strategy. Now for Databricks, we know they came out first as a machine-learning AI tool. They were known better for that spot, and now they're really trying to play catch-up on that data storage compute spot, and inversely for Snowflake, they were killing it with the compute separation from storage, and now they're trying to get into the MLAI spot. I actually wouldn't be surprised to see them make some sort of acquisition. Frank Slootman has been a little bit quiet, in my opinion there. The other thing to mention is your comment about DBT Labs. If we look at our emerging technology survey, last survey when this came out, DBT labs, number one leader in that data integration space, I'm going to just pull it up real quickly. It looks like they had a 33% overall net sentiment to lead data analytics integration. So they are clearly growing, it's fourth straight survey consecutively that they've grown. The other name we're seeing there a little bit is Cribl, but DBT labs is by far the number one player in this space. >> All right. Okay, cool. Moving on, let's go to number nine. With Automation mixer resurgence in 2023, we're showing again data. The x axis is overlap or presence in the dataset, and the vertical axis is shared net score. Net score is a measure of spending momentum. As always, you've seen UI path and Microsoft Power Automate up until the right, that red line, that 40% line is generally considered elevated. UI path is really separating, creating some distance from Automation Anywhere, they, you know, previous quarters they were much closer. Microsoft Power Automate came on the scene in a big way, they loom large with this "Good enough" approach. I will say this, I, somebody sent me a results of a (indistinct) survey, which showed UiPath actually had more mentions than Power Automate, which was surprising, but I think that's not been the case in the ETR data set. We're definitely seeing a shift from back office to front soft office kind of workloads. Having said that, software testing is emerging as a mainstream use case, we're seeing ML and AI become embedded in end-to-end automations, and low-code is serving the line of business. And so this, we think, is going to increasingly have appeal to organizations in the coming year, who want to automate as much as possible and not necessarily, we've seen a lot of layoffs in tech, and people... You're going to have to fill the gaps with automation. That's a trend that's going to continue. >> Yep, agreed. At first that comment about Microsoft Power Automate having less citations than UiPath, that's shocking to me. I'm looking at my chart right here where Microsoft Power Automate was cited by over 60% of our entire survey takers, and UiPath at around 38%. Now don't get me wrong, 38% pervasion's fantastic, but you know you're not going to beat an entrenched Microsoft. So I don't really know where that comment came from. So UiPath, looking at it alone, it's doing incredibly well. It had a huge rebound in its net score this last survey. It had dropped going through the back half of 2022, but we saw a big spike in the last one. So it's got a net score of over 55%. A lot of people citing adoption and increasing. So that's really what you want to see for a name like this. The problem is that just Microsoft is doing its playbook. At the end of the day, I'm going to do a POC, why am I going to pay more for UiPath, or even take on another separate bill, when we know everyone's consolidating vendors, if my license already includes Microsoft Power Automate? It might not be perfect, it might not be as good, but what I'm hearing all the time is it's good enough, and I really don't want another invoice. >> Right. So how does UiPath, you know, and Automation Anywhere, how do they compete with that? Well, the way they compete with it is they got to have a better product. They got a product that's 10 times better. You know, they- >> Right. >> they're not going to compete based on where the lowest cost, Microsoft's got that locked up, or where the easiest to, you know, Microsoft basically give it away for free, and that's their playbook. So that's, you know, up to UiPath. UiPath brought on Rob Ensslin, I've interviewed him. Very, very capable individual, is now Co-CEO. So he's kind of bringing that adult supervision in, and really tightening up the go to market. So, you know, we know this company has been a rocket ship, and so getting some control on that and really getting focused like a laser, you know, could be good things ahead there for that company. Okay. >> One of the problems, if I could real quick Dave, is what the use cases are. When we first came out with RPA, everyone was super excited about like, "No, UiPath is going to be great for super powerful "projects, use cases." That's not what RPA is being used for. As you mentioned, it's being used for mundane tasks, so it's not automating complex things, which I think UiPath was built for. So if you were going to get UiPath, and choose that over Microsoft, it's going to be 'cause you're doing it for more powerful use case, where it is better. But the problem is that's not where the enterprise is using it. The enterprise are using this for base rote tasks, and simply, Microsoft Power Automate can do that. >> Yeah, it's interesting. I've had people on theCube that are both Microsoft Power Automate customers and UiPath customers, and I've asked them, "Well you know, "how do you differentiate between the two?" And they've said to me, "Look, our users and personal productivity users, "they like Power Automate, "they can use it themselves, and you know, "it doesn't take a lot of, you know, support on our end." The flip side is you could do that with UiPath, but like you said, there's more of a focus now on end-to-end enterprise automation and building out those capabilities. So it's increasingly a value play, and that's going to be obviously the challenge going forward. Okay, my last one, and then I think you've got some bonus ones. Number 10, hybrid events are the new category. Look it, if I can get a thousand inbounds that are largely self-serving, I can do my own here, 'cause we're in the events business. (Eric chuckling) Here's the prediction though, and this is a trend we're seeing, the number of physical events is going to dramatically increase. That might surprise people, but most of the big giant events are going to get smaller. The exception is AWS with Reinvent, I think Snowflake's going to continue to grow. So there are examples of physical events that are growing, but generally, most of the big ones are getting smaller, and there's going to be many more smaller intimate regional events and road shows. These micro-events, they're going to be stitched together. Digital is becoming a first class citizen, so people really got to get their digital acts together, and brands are prioritizing earned media, and they're beginning to build their own news networks, going direct to their customers. And so that's a trend we see, and I, you know, we're right in the middle of it, Eric, so you know we're going to, you mentioned RSA, I think that's perhaps going to be one of those crazy ones that continues to grow. It's shrunk, and then it, you know, 'cause last year- >> Yeah, it did shrink. >> right, it was the last one before the pandemic, and then they sort of made another run at it last year. It was smaller but it was very vibrant, and I think this year's going to be huge. Global World Congress is another one, we're going to be there end of Feb. That's obviously a big big show, but in general, the brands and the technology vendors, even Oracle is going to scale down. I don't know about Salesforce. We'll see. You had a couple of bonus predictions. Quantum and maybe some others? Bring us home. >> Yeah, sure. I got a few more. I think we touched upon one, but I definitely think the data prep tools are facing extinction, unfortunately, you know, the Talons Informatica is some of those names. The problem there is that the BI tools are kind of including data prep into it already. You know, an example of that is Tableau Prep Builder, and then in addition, Advanced NLP is being worked in as well. ThoughtSpot, Intelius, both often say that as their selling point, Tableau has Ask Data, Click has Insight Bot, so you don't have to really be intelligent on data prep anymore. A regular business user can just self-query, using either the search bar, or even just speaking into what it needs, and these tools are kind of doing the data prep for it. I don't think that's a, you know, an out in left field type of prediction, but it's the time is nigh. The other one I would also state is that I think knowledge graphs are going to break through this year. Neo4j in our survey is growing in pervasion in Mindshare. So more and more people are citing it, AWS Neptune's getting its act together, and we're seeing that spending intentions are growing there. Tiger Graph is also growing in our survey sample. I just think that the time is now for knowledge graphs to break through, and if I had to do one more, I'd say real-time streaming analytics moves from the very, very rich big enterprises to downstream, to more people are actually going to be moving towards real-time streaming, again, because the data prep tools and the data pipelines have gotten easier to use, and I think the ROI on real-time streaming is obviously there. So those are three that didn't make the cut, but I thought deserved an honorable mention. >> Yeah, I'm glad you did. Several weeks ago, we did an analyst prediction roundtable, if you will, a cube session power panel with a number of data analysts and that, you know, streaming, real-time streaming was top of mind. So glad you brought that up. Eric, as always, thank you very much. I appreciate the time you put in beforehand. I know it's been crazy, because you guys are wrapping up, you know, the last quarter survey in- >> Been a nuts three weeks for us. (laughing) >> job. I love the fact that you're doing, you know, the ETS survey now, I think it's quarterly now, right? Is that right? >> Yep. >> Yep. So that's phenomenal. >> Four times a year. I'll be happy to jump on with you when we get that done. I know you were really impressed with that last time. >> It's unbelievable. This is so much data at ETR. Okay. Hey, that's a wrap. Thanks again. >> Take care Dave. Good seeing you. >> All right, many thanks to our team here, Alex Myerson as production, he manages the podcast force. Ken Schiffman as well is a critical component of our East Coast studio. Kristen Martin and Cheryl Knight help get the word out on social media and in our newsletters. And Rob Hoof is our editor-in-chief. He's at siliconangle.com. He's just a great editing for us. Thank you all. Remember all these episodes that are available as podcasts, wherever you listen, podcast is doing great. Just search "Breaking analysis podcast." Really appreciate you guys listening. I publish each week on wikibon.com and siliconangle.com, or you can email me directly if you want to get in touch, david.vellante@siliconangle.com. That's how I got all these. I really appreciate it. I went through every single one with a yellow highlighter. It took some time, (laughing) but I appreciate it. You could DM me at dvellante, or comment on our LinkedIn post and please check out etr.ai. Its data is amazing. Best survey data in the enterprise tech business. This is Dave Vellante for theCube Insights, powered by ETR. Thanks for watching, and we'll see you next time on "Breaking Analysis." (upbeat music beginning) (upbeat music ending)

>> From theCUBE Studios in Palo Alto in Boston, bringing you data-driven insights from theCUBE and ETR, this is "Breaking Analysis" with Dave Vellante. >> A decade of big data investments combined with cloud scale, the rise of much more cost effective processing power. And the introduction of advanced tooling has catapulted machine intelligence to the forefront of technology investments. No matter what job you have, your operation will be AI powered within five years and machines may actually even be doing your job. Artificial intelligence is being infused into applications, infrastructure, equipment, and virtually every aspect of our lives. AI is proving to be extremely helpful at things like controlling vehicles, speeding up medical diagnoses, processing language, advancing science, and generally raising the stakes on what it means to apply technology for business advantage. But business value realization has been a challenge for most organizations due to lack of skills, complexity of programming models, immature technology integration, sizable upfront investments, ethical concerns, and lack of business alignment. Mastering AI technology will not be a requirement for success in our view. However, figuring out how and where to apply AI to your business will be crucial. That means understanding the business case, picking the right technology partner, experimenting in bite-sized chunks, and quickly identifying winners to double down on from an investment standpoint. Hello and welcome to this week's Wiki-bond CUBE Insights powered by ETR. In this breaking analysis, we update you on the state of AI and what it means for the competition. And to do so, we invite into our studios Andy Thurai of Constellation Research. Andy covers AI deeply. He knows the players, he knows the pitfalls of AI investment, and he's a collaborator. Andy, great to have you on the program. Thanks for coming into our CUBE studios. >> Thanks for having me on. >> You're very welcome. Okay, let's set the table with a premise and a series of assertions we want to test with Andy. I'm going to lay 'em out. And then Andy, I'd love for you to comment. So, first of all, according to McKinsey, AI adoption has more than doubled since 2017, but only 10% of organizations report seeing significant ROI. That's a BCG and MIT study. And part of that challenge of AI is it requires data, is requires good data, data proficiency, which is not trivial, as you know. Firms that can master both data and AI, we believe are going to have a competitive advantage this decade. Hyperscalers, as we show you dominate AI and ML. We'll show you some data on that. And having said that, there's plenty of room for specialists. They need to partner with the cloud vendors for go to market productivity. And finally, organizations increasingly have to put data and AI at the center of their enterprises. And to do that, most are going to rely on vendor R&D to leverage AI and ML. In other words, Andy, they're going to buy it and apply it as opposed to build it. What are your thoughts on that setup and that premise? >> Yeah, I see that a lot happening in the field, right? So first of all, the only 10% of realizing a return on investment. That's so true because we talked about this earlier, the most companies are still in the innovation cycle. So they're trying to innovate and see what they can do to apply. A lot of these times when you look at the solutions, what they come up with or the models they create, the experimentation they do, most times they don't even have a good business case to solve, right? So they just experiment and then they figure it out, "Oh my God, this model is working. Can we do something to solve it?" So it's like you found a hammer and then you're trying to find the needle kind of thing, right? That never works. >> 'Cause it's cool or whatever it is. >> It is, right? So that's why, I always advise, when they come to me and ask me things like, "Hey, what's the right way to do it? What is the secret sauce?" And, we talked about this. The first thing I tell them is, "Find out what is the business case that's having the most amount of problems, that that can be solved using some of the AI use cases," right? Not all of them can be solved. Even after you experiment, do the whole nine yards, spend millions of dollars on that, right? And later on you make it efficient only by saving maybe $50,000 for the company or a $100,000 for the company, is it really even worth the experiment, right? So you got to start with the saying that, you know, where's the base for this happening? Where's the need? What's a business use case? It doesn't have to be about cost efficient and saving money in the existing processes. It could be a new thing. You want to bring in a new revenue stream, but figure out what is a business use case, how much money potentially I can make off of that. The same way that start-ups go after. Right? >> Yeah. Pretty straightforward. All right, let's take a look at where ML and AI fit relative to the other hot sectors of the ETR dataset. This XY graph shows net score spending velocity in the vertical axis and presence in the survey, they call it sector perversion for the October survey, the January survey's in the field. Then that squiggly line on ML/AI represents the progression. Since the January 21 survey, you can see the downward trajectory. And we position ML and AI relative to the other big four hot sectors or big three, including, ML/AI is four. Containers, cloud and RPA. These have consistently performed above that magic 40% red dotted line for most of the past two years. Anything above 40%, we think is highly elevated. And we've just included analytics and big data for context and relevant adjacentness, if you will. Now note that green arrow moving toward, you know, the 40% mark on ML/AI. I got a glimpse of the January survey, which is in the field. It's got more than a thousand responses already, and it's trending up for the current survey. So Andy, what do you make of this downward trajectory over the past seven quarters and the presumed uptick in the coming months? >> So one of the things you have to keep in mind is when the pandemic happened, it's about survival mode, right? So when somebody's in a survival mode, what happens, the luxury and the innovations get cut. That's what happens. And this is exactly what happened in the situation. So as you can see in the last seven quarters, which is almost dating back close to pandemic, everybody was trying to keep their operations alive, especially digital operations. How do I keep the lights on? That's the most important thing for them. So while the numbers spent on AI, ML is less overall, I still think the AI ML to spend to sort of like a employee experience or the IT ops, AI ops, ML ops, as we talked about, some of those areas actually went up. There are companies, we talked about it, Atlassian had a lot of platform issues till the amount of money people are spending on that is exorbitant and simply because they are offering the solution that was not available other way. So there are companies out there, you can take AoPS or incident management for that matter, right? A lot of companies have a digital insurance, they don't know how to properly manage it. How do you find an intern solve it immediately? That's all using AI ML and some of those areas actually growing unbelievable, the companies in that area. >> So this is a really good point. If you can you bring up that chart again, what Andy's saying is a lot of the companies in the ETR taxonomy that are doing things with AI might not necessarily show up in a granular fashion. And I think the other point I would make is, these are still highly elevated numbers. If you put on like storage and servers, they would read way, way down the list. And, look in the pandemic, we had to deal with work from home, we had to re-architect the network, we had to worry about security. So those are really good points that you made there. Let's, unpack this a little bit and look at the ML AI sector and the ETR data and specifically at the players and get Andy to comment on this. This chart here shows the same x y dimensions, and it just notes some of the players that are specifically have services and products that people spend money on, that CIOs and IT buyers can comment on. So the table insert shows how the companies are plotted, it's net score, and then the ends in the survey. And Andy, the hyperscalers are dominant, as you can see. You see Databricks there showing strong as a specialist, and then you got to pack a six or seven in there. And then Oracle and IBM, kind of the big whales of yester year are in the mix. And to your point, companies like Salesforce that you mentioned to me offline aren't in that mix, but they do a lot in AI. But what are your takeaways from that data? >> If you could put the slide back on please. I want to make quick comments on a couple of those. So the first one is, it's surprising other hyperscalers, right? As you and I talked about this earlier, AWS is more about logo blocks. We discussed that, right? >> Like what? Like a SageMaker as an example. >> We'll give you all the components what do you need. Whether it's MLOps component or whether it's, CodeWhisperer that we talked about, or a oral platform or data or data, whatever you want. They'll give you the blocks and then you'll build things on top of it, right? But Google took a different way. Matter of fact, if we did those numbers a few years ago, Google would've been number one because they did a lot of work with their acquisition of DeepMind and other things. They're way ahead of the pack when it comes to AI for longest time. Now, I think Microsoft's move of partnering and taking a huge competitor out would open the eyes is unbelievable. You saw that everybody is talking about chat GPI, right? And the open AI tool and ChatGPT rather. Remember as Warren Buffet is saying that, when my laundry lady comes and talk to me about stock market, it's heated up. So that's how it's heated up. Everybody's using ChatGPT. What that means is at the end of the day is they're creating, it's still in beta, keep in mind. It's not fully... >> Can you play with it a little bit? >> I have a little bit. >> I have, but it's good and it's not good. You know what I mean? >> Look, so at the end of the day, you take the massive text of all the available text in the world today, mass them all together. And then you ask a question, it's going to basically search through that and figure it out and answer that back. Yes, it's good. But again, as we discussed, if there's no business use case of what problem you're going to solve. This is building hype. But then eventually they'll figure out, for example, all your chats, online chats, could be aided by your AI chat bots, which is already there, which is not there at that level. This could build help that, right? Or the other thing we talked about is one of the areas where I'm more concerned about is that it is able to produce equal enough original text at the level that humans can produce, for example, ChatGPT or the equal enough, the large language transformer can help you write stories as of Shakespeare wrote it. Pretty close to it. It'll learn from that. So when it comes down to it, talk about creating messages, articles, blogs, especially during political seasons, not necessarily just in US, but anywhere for that matter. If people are able to produce at the emission speed and throw it at the consumers and confuse them, the elections can be won, the governments can be toppled. >> Because to your point about chatbots is chatbots have obviously, reduced the number of bodies that you need to support chat. But they haven't solved the problem of serving consumers. Most of the chat bots are conditioned response, which of the following best describes your problem? >> The current chatbot. >> Yeah. Hey, did we solve your problem? No. Is the answer. So that has some real potential. But if you could bring up that slide again, Ken, I mean you've got the hyperscalers that are dominant. You talked about Google and Microsoft is ubiquitous, they seem to be dominant in every ETR category. But then you have these other specialists. How do those guys compete? And maybe you could even, cite some of the guys that you know, how do they compete with the hyperscalers? What's the key there for like a C3 ai or some of the others that are on there? >> So I've spoken with at least two of the CEOs of the smaller companies that you have on the list. One of the things they're worried about is that if they continue to operate independently without being part of hyperscaler, either the hyperscalers will develop something to compete against them full scale, or they'll become irrelevant. Because at the end of the day, look, cloud is dominant. Not many companies are going to do like AI modeling and training and deployment the whole nine yards by independent by themselves. They're going to depend on one of the clouds, right? So if they're already going to be in the cloud, by taking them out to come to you, it's going to be extremely difficult issue to solve. So all these companies are going and saying, "You know what? We need to be in hyperscalers." For example, you could have looked at DataRobot recently, they made announcements, Google and AWS, and they are all over the place. So you need to go where the customers are. Right? >> All right, before we go on, I want to share some other data from ETR and why people adopt AI and get your feedback. So the data historically shows that feature breadth and technical capabilities were the main decision points for AI adoption, historically. What says to me that it's too much focus on technology. In your view, is that changing? Does it have to change? Will it change? >> Yes. Simple answer is yes. So here's the thing. The data you're speaking from is from previous years. >> Yes >> I can guarantee you, if you look at the latest data that's coming in now, those two will be a secondary and tertiary points. The number one would be about ROI. And how do I achieve? I've spent ton of money on all of my experiments. This is the same thing theme I'm seeing across when talking to everybody who's spending money on AI. I've spent so much money on it. When can I get it live in production? How much, how can I quickly get it? Because you know, the board is breathing down their neck. You already spend this much money. Show me something that's valuable. So the ROI is going to become, take it from me, I'm predicting this for 2023, that's going to become number one. >> Yeah, and if people focus on it, they'll figure it out. Okay. Let's take a look at some of the top players that won, some of the names we just looked at and double click on that and break down their spending profile. So the chart here shows the net score, how net score is calculated. So pay attention to the second set of bars that Databricks, who was pretty prominent on the previous chart. And we've annotated the colors. The lime green is, we're bringing the platform in new. The forest green is, we're going to spend 6% or more relative to last year. And the gray is flat spending. The pinkish is our spending's going to be down on AI and ML, 6% or worse. And the red is churn. So you don't want big red. You subtract the reds from the greens and you get net score, which is shown by those blue dots that you see there. So AWS has the highest net score and very little churn. I mean, single low single digit churn. But notably, you see Databricks and DataRobot are next in line within Microsoft and Google also, they've got very low churn. Andy, what are your thoughts on this data? >> So a couple of things that stands out to me. Most of them are in line with my conversation with customers. Couple of them stood out to me on how bad IBM Watson is doing. >> Yeah, bring that back up if you would. Let's take a look at that. IBM Watson is the far right and the red, that bright red is churning and again, you want low red here. Why do you think that is? >> Well, so look, IBM has been in the forefront of innovating things for many, many years now, right? And over the course of years we talked about this, they moved from a product innovation centric company into more of a services company. And over the years they were making, as at one point, you know that they were making about majority of that money from services. Now things have changed Arvind has taken over, he came from research. So he's doing a great job of trying to reinvent themselves as a company. But it's going to have a long way to catch up. IBM Watson, if you think about it, that played what, jeopardy and chess years ago, like 15 years ago? >> It was jaw dropping when you first saw it. And then they weren't able to commercialize that. >> Yeah. >> And you're making a good point. When Gerstner took over IBM at the time, John Akers wanted to split the company up. He wanted to have a database company, he wanted to have a storage company. Because that's where the industry trend was, Gerstner said no, he came from AMEX, right? He came from American Express. He said, "No, we're going to have a single throat to choke for the customer." They bought PWC for relatively short money. I think it was $15 billion, completely transformed and I would argue saved IBM. But the trade off was, it sort of took them out of product leadership. And so from Gerstner to Palmisano to Remedi, it was really a services led company. And I think Arvind is really bringing it back to a product company with strong consulting. I mean, that's one of the pillars. And so I think that's, they've got a strong story in data and AI. They just got to sort of bring it together and better. Bring that chart up one more time. I want to, the other point is Oracle, Oracle sort of has the dominant lock-in for mission critical database and they're sort of applying AI there. But to your point, they're really not an AI company in the sense that they're taking unstructured data and doing sort of new things. It's really about how to make Oracle better, right? >> Well, you got to remember, Oracle is about database for the structure data. So in yesterday's world, they were dominant database. But you know, if you are to start storing like videos and texts and audio and other things, and then start doing search of vector search and all that, Oracle is not necessarily the database company of choice. And they're strongest thing being apps and building AI into the apps? They are kind of surviving in that area. But again, I wouldn't name them as an AI company, right? But the other thing that that surprised me in that list, what you showed me is yes, AWS is number one. >> Bring that back up if you would, Ken. >> AWS is number one as you, it should be. But what what actually caught me by surprise is how DataRobot is holding, you know? I mean, look at that. The either net new addition and or expansion, DataRobot seem to be doing equally well, even better than Microsoft and Google. That surprises me. >> DataRobot's, and again, this is a function of spending momentum. So remember from the previous chart that Microsoft and Google, much, much larger than DataRobot. DataRobot more niche. But with spending velocity and has always had strong spending velocity, despite some of the recent challenges, organizational challenges. And then you see these other specialists, H2O.ai, Anaconda, dataiku, little bit of red showing there C3.ai. But these again, to stress are the sort of specialists other than obviously the hyperscalers. These are the specialists in AI. All right, so we hit the bigger names in the sector. Now let's take a look at the emerging technology companies. And one of the gems of the ETR dataset is the emerging technology survey. It's called ETS. They used to just do it like twice a year. It's now run four times a year. I just discovered it kind of mid-2022. And it's exclusively focused on private companies that are potential disruptors, they might be M&A candidates and if they've raised enough money, they could be acquirers of companies as well. So Databricks would be an example. They've made a number of investments in companies. SNEAK would be another good example. Companies that are private, but they're buyers, they hope to go IPO at some point in time. So this chart here, shows the emerging companies in the ML AI sector of the ETR dataset. So the dimensions of this are similar, they're net sentiment on the Y axis and mind share on the X axis. Basically, the ETS study measures awareness on the x axis and intent to do something with, evaluate or implement or not, on that vertical axis. So it's like net score on the vertical where negatives are subtracted from the positives. And again, mind share is vendor awareness. That's the horizontal axis. Now that inserted table shows net sentiment and the ends in the survey, which informs the position of the dots. And you'll notice we're plotting TensorFlow as well. We know that's not a company, but it's there for reference as open source tooling is an option for customers. And ETR sometimes like to show that as a reference point. Now we've also drawn a line for Databricks to show how relatively dominant they've become in the past 10 ETS surveys and sort of mind share going back to late 2018. And you can see a dozen or so other emerging tech vendors. So Andy, I want you to share your thoughts on these players, who were the ones to watch, name some names. We'll bring that data back up as you as you comment. >> So Databricks, as you said, remember we talked about how Oracle is not necessarily the database of the choice, you know? So Databricks is kind of trying to solve some of the issue for AI/ML workloads, right? And the problem is also there is no one company that could solve all of the problems. For example, if you look at the names in here, some of them are database names, some of them are platform names, some of them are like MLOps companies like, DataRobot (indistinct) and others. And some of them are like future based companies like, you know, the Techton and stuff. >> So it's a mix of those sub sectors? >> It's a mix of those companies. >> We'll talk to ETR about that. They'd be interested in your input on how to make this more granular and these sub-sectors. You got Hugging Face in here, >> Which is NLP, yeah. >> Okay. So your take, are these companies going to get acquired? Are they going to go IPO? Are they going to merge? >> Well, most of them going to get acquired. My prediction would be most of them will get acquired because look, at the end of the day, hyperscalers need these capabilities, right? So they're going to either create their own, AWS is very good at doing that. They have done a lot of those things. But the other ones, like for particularly Azure, they're going to look at it and saying that, "You know what, it's going to take time for me to build this. Why don't I just go and buy you?" Right? Or or even the smaller players like Oracle or IBM Cloud, this will exist. They might even take a look at them, right? So at the end of the day, a lot of these companies are going to get acquired or merged with others. >> Yeah. All right, let's wrap with some final thoughts. I'm going to make some comments Andy, and then ask you to dig in here. Look, despite the challenge of leveraging AI, you know, Ken, if you could bring up the next chart. We're not repeating, we're not predicting the AI winter of the 1990s. Machine intelligence. It's a superpower that's going to permeate every aspect of the technology industry. AI and data strategies have to be connected. Leveraging first party data is going to increase AI competitiveness and shorten time to value. Andy, I'd love your thoughts on that. I know you've got some thoughts on governance and AI ethics. You know, we talked about ChatGBT, Deepfakes, help us unpack all these trends. >> So there's so much information packed up there, right? The AI and data strategy, that's very, very, very important. If you don't have a proper data, people don't realize that AI is, your AI is the morals that you built on, it's predominantly based on the data what you have. It's not, AI cannot predict something that's going to happen without knowing what it is. It need to be trained, it need to understand what is it you're talking about. So 99% of the time you got to have a good data for you to train. So this where I mentioned to you, the problem is a lot of these companies can't afford to collect the real world data because it takes too long, it's too expensive. So a lot of these companies are trying to do the synthetic data way. It has its own set of issues because you can't use all... >> What's that synthetic data? Explain that. >> Synthetic data is basically not a real world data, but it's a created or simulated data equal and based on real data. It looks, feels, smells, taste like a real data, but it's not exactly real data, right? This is particularly useful in the financial and healthcare industry for world. So you don't have to, at the end of the day, if you have real data about your and my medical history data, if you redact it, you can still reverse this. It's fairly easy, right? >> Yeah, yeah. >> So by creating a synthetic data, there is no correlation between the real data and the synthetic data. >> So that's part of AI ethics and privacy and, okay. >> So the synthetic data, the issue with that is that when you're trying to commingle that with that, you can't create models based on just on synthetic data because synthetic data, as I said is artificial data. So basically you're creating artificial models, so you got to blend in properly that that blend is the problem. And you know how much of real data, how much of synthetic data you could use. You got to use judgment between efficiency cost and the time duration stuff. So that's one-- >> And risk >> And the risk involved with that. And the secondary issues which we talked about is that when you're creating, okay, you take a business use case, okay, you think about investing things, you build the whole thing out and you're trying to put it out into the market. Most companies that I talk to don't have a proper governance in place. They don't have ethics standards in place. They don't worry about the biases in data, they just go on trying to solve a business case >> It's wild west. >> 'Cause that's what they start. It's a wild west! And then at the end of the day when they are close to some legal litigation action or something or something else happens and that's when the Oh Shit! moments happens, right? And then they come in and say, "You know what, how do I fix this?" The governance, security and all of those things, ethics bias, data bias, de-biasing, none of them can be an afterthought. It got to start with the, from the get-go. So you got to start at the beginning saying that, "You know what, I'm going to do all of those AI programs, but before we get into this, we got to set some framework for doing all these things properly." Right? And then the-- >> Yeah. So let's go back to the key points. I want to bring up the cloud again. Because you got to get cloud right. Getting that right matters in AI to the points that you were making earlier. You can't just be out on an island and hyperscalers, they're going to obviously continue to do well. They get more and more data's going into the cloud and they have the native tools. To your point, in the case of AWS, Microsoft's obviously ubiquitous. Google's got great capabilities here. They've got integrated ecosystems partners that are going to continue to strengthen through the decade. What are your thoughts here? >> So a couple of things. One is the last mile ML or last mile AI that nobody's talking about. So that need to be attended to. There are lot of players in the market that coming up, when I talk about last mile, I'm talking about after you're done with the experimentation of the model, how fast and quickly and efficiently can you get it to production? So that's production being-- >> Compressing that time is going to put dollars in your pocket. >> Exactly. Right. >> So once, >> If you got it right. >> If you get it right, of course. So there are, there are a couple of issues with that. Once you figure out that model is working, that's perfect. People don't realize, the moment you decide that moment when the decision is made, it's like a new car. After you purchase the value decreases on a minute basis. Same thing with the models. Once the model is created, you need to be in production right away because it starts losing it value on a seconds minute basis. So issue number one, how fast can I get it over there? So your deployment, you are inferencing efficiently at the edge locations, your optimization, your security, all of this is at issue. But you know what is more important than that in the last mile? You keep the model up, you continue to work on, again, going back to the car analogy, at one point you got to figure out your car is costing more than to operate. So you got to get a new car, right? And that's the same thing with the models as well. If your model has reached a stage, it is actually a potential risk for your operation. To give you an idea, if Uber has a model, the first time when you get a car from going from point A to B cost you $60. If the model decayed the next time I might give you a $40 rate, I would take it definitely. But it's lost for the company. The business risk associated with operating on a bad model, you should realize it immediately, pull the model out, retrain it, redeploy it. That's is key. >> And that's got to be huge in security model recency and security to the extent that you can get real time is big. I mean you, you see Palo Alto, CrowdStrike, a lot of other security companies are injecting AI. Again, they won't show up in the ETR ML/AI taxonomy per se as a pure play. But ServiceNow is another company that you have have mentioned to me, offline. AI is just getting embedded everywhere. >> Yep. >> And then I'm glad you brought up, kind of real-time inferencing 'cause a lot of the modeling, if we can go back to the last point that we're going to make, a lot of the AI today is modeling done in the cloud. The last point we wanted to make here, I'd love to get your thoughts on this, is real-time AI inferencing for instance at the edge is going to become increasingly important for us. It's going to usher in new economics, new types of silicon, particularly arm-based. We've covered that a lot on "Breaking Analysis", new tooling, new companies and that could disrupt the sort of cloud model if new economics emerge. 'Cause cloud obviously very centralized, they're trying to decentralize it. But over the course of this decade we could see some real disruption there. Andy, give us your final thoughts on that. >> Yes and no. I mean at the end of the day, cloud is kind of centralized now, but a lot of this companies including, AWS is kind of trying to decentralize that by putting their own sub-centers and edge locations. >> Local zones, outposts. >> Yeah, exactly. Particularly the outpost concept. And if it can even become like a micro center and stuff, it won't go to the localized level of, I go to a single IOT level. But again, the cloud extends itself to that level. So if there is an opportunity need for it, the hyperscalers will figure out a way to fit that model. So I wouldn't too much worry about that, about deployment and where to have it and what to do with that. But you know, figure out the right business use case, get the right data, get the ethics and governance place and make sure they get it to production and make sure you pull the model out when it's not operating well. >> Excellent advice. Andy, I got to thank you for coming into the studio today, helping us with this "Breaking Analysis" segment. Outstanding collaboration and insights and input in today's episode. Hope we can do more. >> Thank you. Thanks for having me. I appreciate it. >> You're very welcome. All right. I want to thank Alex Marson who's on production and manages the podcast. Ken Schiffman as well. Kristen Martin and Cheryl Knight helped get the word out on social media and our newsletters. And Rob Hoof is our editor-in-chief over at Silicon Angle. He does some great editing for us. Thank you all. Remember all these episodes are available as podcast. Wherever you listen, all you got to do is search "Breaking Analysis" podcast. I publish each week on wikibon.com and silicon angle.com or you can email me at david.vellante@siliconangle.com to get in touch, or DM me at dvellante or comment on our LinkedIn posts. Please check out ETR.AI for the best survey data and the enterprise tech business, Constellation Research. Andy publishes there some awesome information on AI and data. This is Dave Vellante for theCUBE Insights powered by ETR. Thanks for watching everybody and we'll see you next time on "Breaking Analysis". (gentle closing tune plays)

(soft music) >> Welcome back to Chicago guys and gals. Lisa Martin here with John Furrier. We have been covering Ansible Fest '22 for the last two days. This is our show wrap. We're going to leave you with some great insights into the things that we were able to dissect over the last two days. John, this has been an action packed two days. A lot of excitement, a lot of momentum. Good to be back in person. >> It's great to be back in person. It was the first time for you to do Ansible Fest. >> Yes. >> My first one was 2019 in person. That's the last time they had an event in person. So again, it's a very chill environment here, but it's content packed, great active loyal community and is growing. It's changing. Ansible now owned by Red Hat, and now Red Hat owned by IBM. Kind of see some game changing kind of movements here on the chess board, so to speak, in the industry. Ansible has always been a great product. It started in open source. It evolved configuration management configuring servers, networks. You know, really the nuts and bolts of IT. And became a fan favorite mainly because it was built by the fans and I think that never stopped. And I think you started to see an opportunity for Ansible to be not only just a, I won't say niche product or niche kind of use case to being the overall capabilities for large scale enterprise system architectures, system management. So it's very interesting. I mean I find it fascinating how, how it stays relevant and cool and continues to power through a massive shift >> A massive shift. They've done a great job though since the inception and through the acquisition of being still community first. You know, we talked a lot yesterday and today about helping organizations become automation first that Ansible has really stayed true to its roots in being community first, community driven and really that community flywheel was something that was very obvious the last couple of days. >> Yeah, I mean the community thing is is is their production system. I mean if you look at Red Hat, their open source, Ansible started open source, good that they're together. But what people may or may not know about Ansible is that they build their product from the community. So the community actually makes the suggestions. Ansible's just in listening modes. So when you have a system that's that efficient where you have direct working backwards from the customer like that, it's very efficient. Now, as a product manager you might want to worry about scope creep, but at the end of the day they do a good job of democratizing that process. So again, very strong product production system with open source, very relevant, solves the right problems. But this year the big story to me is the cultural shift of Ansible's relevance. And I think with multicloud on the horizon, operations is the new kind of developer kind of ground. DevOps has been around for a while. That's now shifted up to the developer themselves, the cloud native developer. But at cloud scale and hybrid computing, it's about the operations. It's about the data and the security. All of it's about the data. So to me there's a new ops configuration operating model that you're seeing people use, SRE and DevOps. That's the new culture, and the persona's changing. The operator of a large scale enterprise is going to be a lot different than it was past five, 10 years. So major cultural shift, and I think this community's going to step up to that position and fill that role. >> They seem to be having a lot of success meeting people where they are, meeting the demographics, delivering on how their community wants to work, how they want to collaborate. But yesterday you talked about operations. We talked a lot about Ops as code. Talk about what does that mean from your perspective, and what did you hear from our guests on the program with respect that being viable? >> Well great, that's a great point. Ops as code is the kind of their next layer of progression. Infrastructure is code. Configuration is code. Operations is code. To me that means running the company as software. So software influencing how operators, usually hardware in the past. Now it's infrastructure and software going to run things. So ops as code's, the next progression in how people are going to manage it. And I think most people think of that as enterprises get larger, when they hear words like SRE, which stands for Site Reliable Engineer. That came out of Google, and Google had all these servers that ran the search engine and at scale. And so one person managed boatload of servers and that was efficient. It was like a multiple 10x engineer, they used to call it. So that that was unique to Google but not everyone's Google. So it became language or parlance for someone who's running infrastructure but not everyone's that scale. So scale is a big issue. Ops as code is about scale and having that program ability as an operator. That's what Ops as code is. And that to me is a sign of where the scale meets the automation. Large scale is hard to do. Automating at large scale is even harder. So that's where Ansible fits in with their new automation platform. And you're seeing new things like signing code, making sure it's trusted and verified. So that's the software supply chain issue. So they're getting into the world where software, open source, automation are all happening at scale. So to me that's a huge concept of Ops as code. It's going to be very relevant, kind of the next gen positioning. >> Let's switch gears and talk about the partner ecosystem. We had Stefanie Chiras on yesterday, one of our longtime theCUBE alumni, talking about what they're doing with AWS in the marketplace. What was your take on that, and what's the "what's in it for me" for both Red Hat, Ansible and AWS? >> Yeah, so the big news on the automation platform was one. The other big news I thought was really, I won't say watered down, but it seems small but it's not. It's the Amazon Web Services relationship with Red Hat, now Ansible, where Ansible's now a product in AWS's marketplace. AWS marketplace is kind of hanging around. It's a catalog right now. It's not the most advanced technical system in the world, and it does over 2 billion plus revenue transactions. So even if it's just sitting there as a large marketplace, that's already doing massive amounts of disruption in the procurement, how software is bought. So we interviewed them in the past, and they're innovating on that. They're going to make that a real great platform. But the fact that Ansible's in the marketplace means that their sales are going to go up, number one. Number two, that means customers can consume it simply by clicking a button on their Amazon bill. That means they don't have to do anything. It's like getting a PO for free. It's like, hey, I'm going to buy Ansible, click, click, click. And then by the way, draw that down from their commitment to AWS. So that means Amazon's going into business with Ansible, and that is a huge revenue thing for Ansible, but also an operational efficiency thing that gives them more of an advantage over the competition. >> Talk what's in it for me as a customer. At Red Hat Summit a few months ago they announced similar partnership with Azure. Now we're talking about AWS. Customers are living in this hybrid cloud world, often by default. We're going to see that proliferate. What do you think this means for customers in terms of being able to- >> In the marketplace deal or Ansible? >> Yeah, the marketplace deal, but also what Red Hat and Ansible are doing with the hyperscalers to enable customers to live successfully in the hyper hybrid cloud world. >> It's just in the roots of the company. They give them the choice to consume the product on clouds that they like. So we're seeing a lot of clients that have standardized on AWS with their dev teams but also have productivity software on Azure. So you have the large enterprises, they sit on both clouds. So you know, Ansible, the customer wants to use Ansible anyway, they want that to happen. So it's a natural thing for them to work anywhere. I call that the Switzerland strategy. They'll play with all the clouds. Even though the clouds are fighting against each other, and they have to to differentiate, there's still going to be some common services. I think Ansible fits this shim layer between clouds but also a bolt on. Now that's a really a double win for them. They can bolt on to the cloud, Azure and bolt on to AWS and Google, and also be a shim layer technically in clouds as well. So there's two technical advantages to that strategy >> Can Ansible be a facilitator of hybrid cloud infrastructure for organizations, or a catalyst? >> I think it's going to be a gateway on ramp or gateway to multicloud or supercloud, as we call it, because Ansible's in that configuration layer. So you know, it's interesting to hear the IBM research story, which we're going to get to in a second around how they're doing the AI for Ansible with that wisdom project. But the idea of configuring stuff on the fly is really a concept that's needed for multicloud 'Cause programs don't want to have to configure anything. (he laughs) So standing up an application to run on Azure that's on AWS that spans both clouds, you're going to need to have that automation, and I think this is an opportunity whether they can get it or not, we'll see. I think Red Hat is probably angling on that hard, and I can see them kind of going there and some of the commentary kind of connects the dots for that. >> Let's dig into some of news that came out today. You just alluded to this. IBM research, we had on with Red Hat. Talk about what they call project wisdom, the value in that, what it also means for for Red Hat and IBM working together very synergistically. >> I mean, I think the project wisdom is an interesting dynamic because you got the confluence of the organic community of Ansible partnering with a research institution of IBM research. And I think that combination of practitioners and research groups is going to map itself out to academic and then you're going to see this kind of collaboration going forward. So I think it's a very nuanced story, but the impact to me is very clear that this is the new power brokers in the tech industry, because researchers have a lot of muscle in terms of deep research in the academic area, and the practitioners are the ones who are actually doing it. So when you bring those two forces together, that pretty much trumps any kind of standards bodies or anything else. So I think that's a huge signaling benefit to Ansible and Red Hat. I think that's an influence of Red Hat being bought by IBM. But the project itself is really amazing. It's taking AI and bringing it to Ansible, so you can do automated configurations. So for people who don't know how to code they can actually just automate stuff and know the process. I don't need to be a coder, I can just use the AI to do that. That's a low code, no code dynamic. That kind of helps with skill gaps, because I need to hire someone to do that. Today if I want to automate something, and I don't know how to code, I've got to get someone who codes. Here I can just do it and automate it. So if that continues to progress the way they want it to, that could literally be a game changer, 'cause now you have software configuring machines and that's pretty badass in my opinion. So that thought that was pretty cool. And again it's just an evolution of how AI is becoming more relevant. And I think it's directionally correct, and we'll see how it goes. >> And they also talked about we're nearing an inflection point in AI. You agree? >> Yeah I think AI is at an inflection point because it just falls short on the scale side. You see it with chatbots, NLP. You see what Amazon's doing. They're building these models. I think we're one step away from model scaling. I think the building the models is going to be one of these things where you're going to start to see marketplace and models and you start to composability of AI. That's where it's going to get very interesting to see which cloud is the best AI scale. So I think AI at scale's coming, and that's going to be something to watch really closely. >> Something exciting. Another thing that was big news today was the event driven Ansible. Talk about that, and that's something they've been working on in conjunction with the community for quite a while. They were very proud of that release and what that's going to enable organizations to do. >> Well I think that's more meat on the bone on the AI side 'cause in the big trend right now is MLAI ops. You hear that a lot. Oh, data ops or AI ops. What event driven automation does is allows you to take things that are going on in your world, infrastructure, triggers, alarms, notifications, data pipelining flows, things that go on in the plumbing of infrastructure. are being monitored and observed. So when events happen they trigger events. You want to stream something, you send a trigger and things happen. So these are called events. Events are wide ranging number of events. Kafka streaming for data. You got anything that produces data is an event. So harnessing that data into a pipeline is huge. So doing that at scale, that's where I think that product's a home run, and I think that's going to be a very valuable product, 'cause once you understand what the event triggers are, you then can automate that, and no humans involved. So that will save a lot of time for people in the the higher pay grade of MLAI ops automate some of that low level plumbing. They move their skill set to something more valuable or more impactful. >> And we talked about, speaking of impact, we talked about a lot of the business impact that organizations across industries are going to be able to likely achieve by using that. >> Yeah, I mean I think that you're going to see the community fill the gap on that. I mean the big part about all this is that their community builds the product and they have the the playbooks and they're shareable and they're reusable. So we produce content as a media company. They'd talk about content as is playbooks and documentation for people to use. So reuse and and reusing these playbooks is a huge part of it. So as they build up these catalogs and these playbooks and rules, it gets better by the community. So it's going to be interesting to see the adoption. That's going to be a big tell sign for what's going to happen. >> Yep, we get definitely are going to be watching that space. And the last thing, we got to talk to a couple of customers. We talked to Wells Fargo who says "We are a tech company that does banking," which I loved. We got to talk with Rockwell Automation. What are some of your takeaways from how the customers are leveraging Ansible and the technology to drive their businesses forward to meet demanding customers where they are? >> I think you're seeing the script flipping a little bit here, where the folks that used to use Ansible for configuration are flipping to be on the front edge of the innovation strategy where what process to automate is going to drive the profitability and scale. Cause you're talking about things like skill gaps, workflows. These are business constructs and people These are assets so they have economic value. So before it was just, IT serve the business, configure some servers, do some stuff. When you start getting into automation where you have expertise around what this means, that's economic value. So I think you're going to see the personas change significantly in this community where they're on the front lines, kind of like developers are. That's why ops as code is to me a developer kind of vibe. That's going to completely change how operations runs in IT. And I think that's going to be a very interesting cultural shift. And some will make it, some won't. That's going to be a big thing. Some people say, I'm going to retire. I'm old school storage server person, or no, I'm the new guard. I'm going to be the new team. I'm going be on the right side of history here. So they're clearly going down that right path in my opinion. >> What's your overall summary in the last minute of what this event delivered the last couple of days in terms of really talking about the transformation of enterprises and industries through automation? >> I think the big takeaway from me in listening and reading the tea leaves was the Ansible company and staff and the community together. It was really a call for arms. Like, hey, we've had it right from the beginning. We're on the right wave and the wave's getting bigger. So expand your scope, uplevel your skills. They're on the right side of history. And I think the message was engage more. Bring more people in because it is open source, and if they are on that track, you're going to see more of hey, we got it right, let's continue. So they got platform release. They got the key products coming out after years of work. So you know, they're doing their work. And the message I heard was, it's bigger than we thought. So I think that's interesting. We'll see what that means. We're going to unpack that after the event in series of showcases. But yeah, it was very positive, I thought. Very positive. >> Yeah, I think there was definitely some surprises in there for them. John, thank you so much. It's been a pleasure co-hosting with you the last couple of days, really uncovering what Ansible is doing, what they're enabling customers in every industry to achieve. >> Been fun. >> Yes. All right for my co-host, John Furrier, I'm Lisa Martin. You've been watching theCUBE's coverage of Ansible Fest 2022 live from Chicago. We hope you take good care and we'll see you soon.

(upbeat music) >> Announcer: theCUBE presents UiPath Forward5. Brought to you by UiPath. >> Hi everybody, we're back in Las Vegas. We're live with Cube's coverage of Forward 5 2022. Dave Vellante with Dave Nicholson Ted Kumer this year is the Executive Vice President, product and engineering at UiPath. Brought on to do a lot of the integration and bring on new capabilities for the platform and we've seen that over the last several years. And he's joined by Dr. Edward Challis, who's the co-founder of the recent acquisition that UiPath made, company called Re:infer. We're going to learn about those guys. Gents, welcome to theCUBE. Ted, good to see you again. Ed, welcome. >> Good to be here. >> First time. >> Thank you. >> Yeah, great to be here with you. >> Yeah, so we have seen, as I said, this platform expanding. I think you used the term business automation platform. It's kind of a new term you guys introduced at the conference. Where'd that come from? What is that? What are the characteristics that are salient to the platform? >> Well, I see the, the evolution of our platform in three chapters. You understand the first chapter, we call that the RPA chapter. And that's where we saw the power of UI automation applied to the old problems of how do I integrate apps? How do I automate processes? That was chapter one. You know, chapter two gets us to Forward3 in 2019, and the definition of this end-to-end automation platform you know, with the capabilities from discover to measure, and building out that core platform. And as the platform's progressed, what we've seen happen with our customers is the use of it goes from being very heavy in automating the repetitive and routine to being more balanced, to now where they're implementing new brought business process, new capability for their organization. So that's where the name, Business Automation Platform, came from. Reflecting now that it's got this central role, as a strategic tool, sitting between their application landscape, their processes, their people, helping that move forward at the rate that it needs to. >> And process mining and task mining, that was sort of the enabler of chapter two, is that right? >> Well, I'd say chapter two was, you know, first the robots got bigger in terms of what they could cover and do. API integration, long running workflows, AI and ML skills integrated document processing, citizen development in addition to professional development, engaging end users with things like user interfaces built with UiPath apps. And then the discovery. >> So, more robustness of the? Yeah, okay. >> Yeah. Just an expansion of the whole surface area which opened up a lot of things for our customers to do. That went much broader than where core RPA started. And so, and the other thing about this progression to the business automation platform is, you know, we see customers now talking more about outcomes. Early on they talk a lot about hours saved and that's great, but then what about the business outcomes it's enabling? The transformations in their business. And the other thing we're doing in the platform is thinking about, well, where can we land with solutions capabilities that more directly land on business, measurable business outcomes? And so we had started, for example, offering an email automation solution, big business problem for a lot of our customers last year. And we'd started encountering this company Re:infer as we were working with customers. And then, and we encountered Re:infer being used with our platform together. And we saw we can accelerate this. And what that is giving us now is a solution now that aligns with a very defined business outcome. And this way, you know, we can help you process communications and do it efficiently and provide better service for your customers. And that's beginning of another important progression for us in our platform. >> So that's a nice segue, Ed. Tell about Re:infer. Why did you start the company? >> Right, yeah, so my whole career has been in machine learning and AI and I finished my PhD around 2013, it was a very exciting time in AI. And me and my co-founders come from UCL, this university in London, and Deep Mind, this company which Google acquired a few years later, came from our same university. So very exciting time amongst the people that really knew about machine learning and AI. And everyone was thinking, you know, how do we, these are just really big breakthroughs. And you could just see there was going to be a whole bunch of subsequent breakthroughs and we thought NLP would be the next breakthrough. So we were really focused on machine reading problems. And, but we also knew as people that had like built machine learning production systems. 'Cause I'd also worked in industry that built that journey from having a hypothesis that machine learning can solve a problem to getting machine learning into production. That journey is of painful, painful journey and that, you know, you can see that you've got these advances, but getting into broad is just way too hard. >> So where do you fit in the platform? >> Yeah, so I think when you look in the enterprise just so many processes start with a message start with a no, start with a case ticket or, you know, some other kind of request from a colleague or a customer. And so it's super exciting to be able to, you know, take automation one step higher in that process chain. So, you could automatically read that request, interpret it, get all the structured data you need to drive that process forward. So it's about bringing automation into these human channels. >> So I want to give the audience a sense here. So we do a lot of events at the Venetian Conference Center, and it's usually very booth heavy, you know, brands and big giant booths. And here the booths are all very small. They're like kiosks, and they're all pretty much the same size. So it's not like one vendor trying to compete with the other. And there are all these elements, you know I feel like there's clouds and there's, you know, of course orange is the color here. And one of the spots is, it has this really kind of cool sitting area around customer stories. And I was in there last night reading about Deutsche Bank. Deutsche Bank was also up on stage. Deutsche Bank, you guys were talking about a Re:infer. So share with our audience what Deutsche Bank are doing with UiPath and Re:infer. >> Yeah, so I mean, you know, before we automate something, we often like to do what we call communications mining. Which is really understanding what all of these messages are about that might be hitting a part of the business. And at Deutsche Bank and in many, you know, like many large financial services businesses, huge volumes of messages coming in from the clients. We analyze those, interpret the high volume query types and then it's about automating against those to free up capacity. Which ultimately means you can provide faster, higher quality service because you've got more time to do it. And you're not dealing with all of those mundane tasks. So it's that whole journey of mining to automation of the coms that come into the corporate bank. >> So how do I invoke the service? So is it mother module or what's the customer onboarding experience like? >> So, I think the first thing that we do is we generate some understanding of actually the communications data they want to observe, right? And we call it mining, but you know, what we're trying to understand is like what are these communications about? What's the intent? What are they trying to accomplish? Tone can be interesting, like what's the sentiment of this customer? And once you understand that, you essentially then understand categories of conversations you're having and then you apply automations to that. And so then essentially those individual automations can be pointed to sets of emails for them to automate the processing of. And so what we've seen is customers go from things they're handling a hundred percent manual to now 95% of them are handled basically with completely automated processing. The other thing I think is super interesting here and why communications mining and automation are so powerful together is communications about your business can be very, very dynamic. So like, new conversations can emerge, something happens right in your business, you have an outage, whatever, and the automation platform, being a very rapid development platform, can help you adapt quickly to that in an automated way. Which is another reason why this is such a powerful thing to put the two things together. >> So, you can build that event into the automation very quickly you're saying? >> Speaker 1: Yeah. >> Speaker 2: That's totally right. >> Cool. >> So Ed, on the subject of natural language processing and machine learning versus machine teaching. If I text my wife and ask her would you like to go to an Italian restaurant tonight? And she replies, fine. Okay, how smart is your machine? And, of course, context usually literally denotes things within the text, and a short response like that's very difficult to do this. But how do you go through this process? Let's say you're implementing this for a given customer. And we were just talking about, you know, the specific customer requirements that they might have. What does that process look like? Do you have an auditor that goes through? And I mean do you get like 20% accuracy, and then you do a pass, and now you're at 80% accuracy, and you do a pass? What does that look? >> Yeah, so I mean, you know when I was talking about the pain of getting a machine learning model into production one of the principle drivers of that is this process of training the machine learning model. And so what we use is a technique called active learning which is effectively where the AI and ML model queries the user to say, teach me about this data point, teach me about this sentence. And that's a dynamic iterative process. And by doing it in that way you make that training process much, much faster. But critically that means that the user has, when you train the model the user defines how you want to encode that interpretation. So when you were training it you would say fine from my wife is not good, right? >> Sure, so it might be fine, do you have a better suggestion? >> Yeah, but that's actually a very serious point because one of the things we do is track the quality of service. Our customers use us to attract the quality of service they deliver to their clients. And in many industries people don't use flowery language, like, thank you so much, or you know, I'm upset with you, you know. What they might say is fine, and you know, the person that manages that client, that is not good, right? Or they might say I'd like to remind you that we've been late the last three times, you know. >> This is urgent. >> Yeah, you know, so it's important that the client, our client, the user of Re:infer, can encode what their notions of good and bad are. >> Sorry, quick follow up on that. Differences between British English and American English. In the U.K., if you're thinking about becoming an elected politician, you stand for office, right? Here in the U.S., you run for office. That's just the beginning of the vagaries and differences. >> Yeah, well, I've now got a lot more American colleagues and I realize my English phrasing often goes amiss. So I'm really aware of the problem. We have customers that have contact centers, some of them are in the U.K., some of them are in America, and they see big differences in the way that the customers get treated based on where the customer is based. So we've actually done analysis in Re:infer to look at how agents and customers interact and how you should route customers to the contact centers to be culturally matched. Because sometimes there can be a little bit of friction just for that cultural mapping. >> Ted, what's the what's the general philosophy when you make an acquisition like this and you bring in new features? Do you just wake up one day and all of a sudden there's this new capability? Is it a separate sort of for pay module? Does it depend? >> I think it depends. You know, in this case we were really led here by customers. We saw a very high value opportunity and the beginnings of a strategy and really being able to mine all forms of communication and drive automated processing of all forms of communication. And in this case we found a fantastic team and a fantastic piece of software that we can move very quickly to get in the hands of our customer's via UiPath. We're in private preview now, we're going to be GA in the cloud right after the first of the year and it's going to continue forward from there. But it's definitely not one size fits all. Every single one of 'em is different and it's important to approach 'em that way. >> Right, right. So some announcements, StudioWeb was one that I think you could. So I think it came out today. Can't remember what was today. I think we talked about it yesterday on the keynotes anyway. Why is that important? What is it all about? >> Well we talked, you know, at a very top level. I think every development platform thinks about two things for developers. They think, how do I make it more expressive so you can do other things, richer scenarios. And how do I make it simpler? 'Cause fast is always better, and lower learning curves is always better, and those sorts of things. So, Re:infer's a great example of look the runtime is becoming more and more expressive and now you can buy in communications state as part of your automation, which is super cool. And then, you know StudioWeb is about kind of that second point and Studios and Studio X are already low code visual, but they're desktop. And part of our strategy here is to elevate all of that experience into the web. Now we didn't elevate all of studio there, it's a subset. It is API integration and web based application automation, Which is a great foundation for a lot of apps. It's a complete reimagining of the studio user interface and most importantly it's our first cross-platform developer strategy. And so that's been another piece of our strategy, is to say to the customers we want to be everywhere you need us to be. We did cross-platform deployment with the automation suite. We got cross-platform robots with linear robots, serverless robots, Mac support and now we got a cross-platform devs story. So we're starting out with a subset of capabilities maybe oriented toward what you would associate with citizen scenarios. But you're going to see more roadmap, bringing more and more of that. But it's pretty exciting for us. We've been working on this thing for a couple years now and like this is a huge milestone for the team to get to this, this point. >> I think my first conversation on theCUBE with a customer was six years ago maybe at one of the earlier Forwards, I think Forward2. And the pattern that I saw was basically people taking existing processes and making them better, you know taking the mundane away. I remember asking customers, yeah, aren't you kind of paving the cow path? Aren't there sort of new things that you can do, new process? And they're like, yeah, that's sort of the next wave. So what are you seeing in terms of automating existing processes versus new processes? I would see Re:infer is going to open up a whole new vector of new processes. How should we think about that? >> Yeah, I think, you know, I mean in some ways RPA has this reputation because there's so much value that's been provided in the automating of the repetitive and routine. But I'd say in my whole time, I've been at the company now for two and a half years, I've seen lots of new novel stuff stood up. I mean just in Covid we saw the platform being used in PPP loan processing. We saw it in new clinical workflows for COVID testing. We see it and we've just seen more and more progression and it's been exciting that the conference, to see customers now talking about things they built with UiPath apps. So app experiences they've been delivering, you know. I talked about one in healthcare yesterday and basically how they've improved their patient intake processing and that sort of thing. And I think this is just the front end. I truly believe that we are seeing the convergence happen and it's happening already of categories we've talked about separately, iPass, BPM, low-code, RPA. It's happening and it's good for customers 'cause they want one thing to cover more stuff and you know, I think it just creates more opportunity for developers to do more things. >> Your background at Microsoft probably well prepared you for a company that you know, was born on-prem and then went all in on the cloud and had, you know, multiple code bases to deal with. UiPath has gone through a similar transformation and we talked to Daniel last night about this and you're now cloud first. So how is that going just in terms of managing multiple code bases? >> Well it's actually not multiple Code bases. >> Oh, it's the same one, Right, deployment models I should say. >> Is the first thing, Yeah, the deployment models. Another thing we did along the way was basically replatform at an infrastructure level. So we now can deploy into a Kubernetes Docker world, what you'd call the cloud native platform. And that allows us to have much more of a shared infrastructure layer as we look to deliver to the automation cloud. The same workload to the automation cloud that we now deliver in the automation suite for deployment on-prem or deploying a public cloud for a customer to manage. Interesting and enough, that's how Re:infer was built, which is it was built also in the cloud native platform. So it's going to be pretty easy. Well, pretty easy, there's some work to do, but it's going to be pretty easy for us to then bring that into the platform 'cause they're already working on that same platform and provide those same services both on premises and in the cloud without having your developers have to think too much about both. >> Okay, I got to ask you, so I could wrap my stack in a container and put it into AWS or Azure or Google and it'll run great. As well, I could tap some of the underlying primitives of those respective clouds, which are different and I could run them just fine. Or/and I could create an abstraction layer that could hide those underlying primitives and then take the best of each and create an automation cloud, my own cloud. Does that resonate? Is that what you're doing architecturally? Is that a roadmap, or? >> Certainly going forward, you know, in the automation cloud. The automation cloud, we announced a great partnership or a continued partnership with Microsoft. And just Azure and our platform. We obviously take advantage of anything we can to make that great and native capabilities. And I think you're going to see in the Automation Suite us doing more and more to be in a deployment model on Azure, be more and more optimized to using those infrastructure services. So if you deploy automation suite on-prem we'll use our embedded distro then when we deploy it say on Azure, we'll use some of their higher level managed services instead of our embedded distro. And that will just give customers a better optimized experience. >> Interesting to see how that'll develop. Last question is, you know what should we expect going forward? Can you show us a little leg on on the future? >> Well, we've talked about a number of directions. This idea of semantic automation is a place where you know, you're going to, I think, continue to see things, shoots, green shoots, come up in our platform. And you know, it's somewhat of an abstract idea but the idea that the platform is just going to become semantically smarter. You know, I had to serve Re:infer as a way, we're semantically smarter now about communications data and forms of communications data. We're getting semantically smarter about documents, screens you know, so developers aren't dealing with, like, this low level stuff. They can focus on business problem and get out of having to deal with all this lower level mechanism. That is one of many areas I'm excited about, but I think that's an area you're going to see a lot from us in the next coming years. >> All right guys, hey, thanks so much for coming to theCUBE. Really appreciate you taking us through this. Awesome >> Yeah Always a pleasure. >> Platform extension. Ed. All right, keep it right there, everybody. Dave Nicholson, I will be back right after this short break from UiPath Forward5, Las Vegas. (upbeat music)

>>Welcome back everyone to the cubes coverage here live in San Francisco for VMware Explorer. Formerly got it. World. We've been to every world since 2010. Now is VMware Explorer. I'm John furier host with Dave ante with Dave lium here. He's the chief cloud strategy officer at Deloitte. Welcome to the cube. Thanks for coming on. Appreciate your time. >>Thanks for having me. It's >>Epic keynote today on stage all seven minutes of your great seven minutes >>Performance discussion. Yes. Very, very, very, very quick to the order. I brought everybody up to speed and left. >>Well, Dave's great to have you on the cube one. We follow your work. We've been following for a long time. Thank you. A lot of web services, a lot of SOA, kind of in your background, kind of the old web services, AI, you know, samples, RSS, web services, all that good stuff. Now it's, it's now we're in kind of web services on steroids. Cloud came it's here. We're NextGen. You wrote a great story on Metacloud. You've been following the Supercloud with Dave. Does VMware have it right? >>Yeah, they do. Because I'll tell you what the market is turning toward. Anything that sit above and between the clouds. So things that don't exist in the hyperscaler, things that provide common services above the cloud providers are where the growth's gonna happen. We haven't really solved that problem yet. And so there's lots of operational aspects, security aspects, and the ability to have some sort of a brokering service that'll scale. So multi-cloud, which is their strategy here is not about cloud it's about things that exist in between cloud and making those things work. So getting to another layer of abstraction and automation to finally allow us to make use out of all these hyperscaler services that we're signing on today. Dave, >>Remember the old days back in the eighties, when we were young bucks coming into the business, the interoperability wave was coming. Remember that? Oh yeah, I got a deck mini computer. I got an IBM was gonna solve that unex. And then, you know, this other thing over here and lands and all and everything started getting into this whole, okay. Networking. Wasn't just coax. You started to see segment segments. Interoperability was a huge, what 10 year run. It feels like that's kind of like the vibe going on here. >>Yeah. We're not focused on having these things interop operate onto themselves. So what we're doing is putting a layer of things which allows them to interop operate. That's a different, that's a different problem to solve. And it's also solvable. We were talking about getting all these very distinct proprietary systems to communicate one to another and interate one to another. And that never really happened. Right? Cause you gotta get them to agree on interfaces and protocols. But if you put a layer above it, they can talk down to whatever native interfaces that are there and deal with the differences between the heterogeneity and abstract yourself in the complexity. And that's, that's kind of the different that works. The ability to kind of get everybody, you know, clunk their heads together and make them work together. That doesn't seem to scale couple >>And, and people gotta be motivated for that. Not many people might not >>Has me money. In other words has to be a business for them in doing so. >>A couple things I wanna follow up on from work, you know, this morning they used the term cloud chaos. When you talk to customers, you know, when they have multiple clouds, do they, are they saying to you, Hey, we have cloud chaos are, do they have cloud chaos? And they don't know it or do they not have cloud chaos? What's the mix. >>Yeah. I don't think the word chaos is used that much, but they do tell me they're hitting a complexity wall, which you do here out there as a term. So in other words, they're getting to a point where they can't scale operations to deal with a complexity and heterogeneity that they're, that they're bringing into the organization because using multiple clouds. So that is chaotic. So I guess that, you know, it is another way to name complexity. So there's so many services are moving from a thousand cloud services, under management to 3000 cloud services under management. They don't have the operational team, the skill, skill levels to do it. They don't have the tooling to do it. That's a wall. And you have to be able to figure out how to get beyond that wall to make those things work. So >>When, when we had our conversation about Metacloud and Supercloud, we we've, I think very much aligned in our thinking. And so now you've got this situation where you've got these abstraction layers, but, and there, but my question is, are we gonna have multiple abstraction layers? And will they talk to each other or are standards emerging? Will they be able to, >>No, we can't have multiple abstraction layers else. We just, we don't solve the problem. We go from complexity of exists at the native cloud levels to complexity of exists, that this thing we're dealing with to deal with complexity. So if you do that, we're screwing up. We have to go back and fix it. So ultimately this is about having common services, common security, layers, common operational layers, and things like that that are really reduced redundancy within the system. So instead of having a, you know, five different security layers and five different cloud providers, we're layering one and providing management and orchestration capabilities to make that happen. If we don't do that, we're not succeeding. >>What do you think about the marketplace? I know there's a lot of things going on that are happening around this. Wanna get your thoughts on obviously the industry dynamics, vendors preserving their future. And then you've got customers who have been leveraging the CapEx, goodness of say Amazon and then have to solve their whole distributed environment problem. So when you look at this, is it really solving? Is it is the order of operations first common layer abstraction because you know, it seems like the vendor, I won't say desperation move, but like their first move is we're gonna be the control plane or, you know, I think Cisco has a vision in their mind that no, no we're gonna have that management plane. I've heard a lot of people talking about, we're gonna be the management interface into something. How do you see that playing out? Because the order of operations to do the abstraction is to get consensus, right, right. First not competition. Right. So how do you see that? What's your reaction to that? And what's your observation. >>I think it's gonna be tough for the people who are supplying the underlying services to also be the orchestration and abstraction layers, because they're, they're kind of conflicted in making that happen. In other words, it's not in their best interest to make all these things work and interoperate one to another, but it's their best interest to provide, provide a service that everybody's going to leverage. So I see the layers here. I'm certainly the hyperscalers are gonna play in those layers and then they're welcome to play in those layers. They may come up with a solution that everybody picks, but ultimately it's about independence and your ability to have an objective way of, of allowing all these things to communicate together and driving this, driving this stuff together, to reduce the complexity again, to reduce. >>So a network box, for instance, maybe have hooks into it, but not try to dominate it >>Or that's right. Yeah, that's right. I think if you're trying to own everything and I get that a lot when I write about Supercloud and, and Metacloud they go, well, we're the Metacloud, we're the Supercloud you can't be other ones. That's a huge problem to solve. I know you don't have a solution for that. Okay. It's gonna be many different products to make that happen. And the reality is people who actually make that work are gonna have to be interdependent independent of the various underlying services. They're gonna, they can support them, but they really can't be them. They have to be an interate interop. They have to interoperate with those services. >>Do you, do you see like a w three C model, like the worldwide web consortium, remember that came out around 96, came to the us and MIT and then helped for some of those early standards in, in, in the internet, not DNS, but like the web, but DNS was already there and internet was already there, but like the web standards HTML kind of had, I think wasn't really hardcore get you in the headlock, but at least it was some sort of group that said, Hey, intellectually be honest, you see that happening in this area. >>I hope not. And here's >>Why not. >>Yeah. >>Here's, here's why the reality is is that when these consortiums come into play, it freezes the market. Everybody waits for the consortium to come up with some sort of a solution that's gonna save the world. And that solution never comes because you can't get these organizations through committee to figure out some sort of a technology stack that's gonna be working. So I'd rather see the market figure that out. Not a consortium when >>I, you mean the ecosystem, not some burning Bush. >>Yeah. Not some burning Bush. And it just hasn't worked. I mean, if it worked, it'd be great. And >>We had a, an event on August 9th, it was super cloud 22 and we had a security securing the super cloud panel. And one of my was a great conversation as you remember, John, but it was kind of depressing in that, like we're never gonna solve this problem. So what are you seeing in the security front? You know, it seems to like that's a main blocker to the Metacloud the Supercloud >>Yeah. The reality is you can't build all the security services in, in the Metacloud. You have to basically leverage the security services on the native cloud and leverage them as they exist. So this idea that we're gonna replace all of these security services with one layer of abstraction, that's gonna provide the services. So you don't need these underlying security systems that won't work. You have to leverage the native security systems, native governance, native operating interfaces, native APIs of all the various native clouds using the terms that they're looking to leverage. And that's the mistake. I think people are going to make, you don't need to replace something that's working. You just may need to make it easier to >>Use. Let's ask Dave about the, sort of the discussion that was on Twitter this morning. So when VMware announced their, you know, cross cloud services and, and the whole new Tansu one, three, and, and, and, and aria, there was a little chatter on Twitter basically saying, yeah, but VMware they'll never win the developers. And John came and said, well, hi, hang on. You know, if, if you've got open tools and you're embracing those, it's really about the ops and having standards on the op side. And so my question to you is, does VMware, that's >>Not exactly what I said, but close enough, >>Sorry. I mean, I'm paraphrasing. You can fine tune it, but, but does VMware have to win the developers or are they focused on kind of the right areas that whole, you know, op side of DevOps >>Focused on the op side, cuz that's the harder problem to solve. Developers are gonna use whatever tools they need to use to build these applications and roll them out. And they're gonna change all the time. In other words, they're gonna change the tools and technologies to do it in the supply chain. The ops problem is the harder problem to solve the ability to get these things working together and, and running at a certain point of reliability where the failure's not gonna be there. And I think that's gonna be the harder issue and doing that without complexity. >>Yeah. That's the multi-cloud challenge right there. I agree. The question I want to also pivot on that is, is that as we look at some of the reporting we've done and interviews, data and security really are hard areas. People are tune tuning up DevOps in the developer S booming, everyone's going fast, fast and loose. Shifting left, all that stuff's happening. Open source, booming Toga party. Everyone's partying ops is struggling to level up. So I guess the question is what's the order of operations from a customer. So a lot of customers have lifted and shift. The, some are going all in on say, AWS, yeah, I got a little hedge with Azure, but I'm not gonna do a full development team. As you talk to customers, cuz they're the ones deploying the clouds that want to get there, right? What's the order of operations to do it properly in your mind. And what's your advice as you look at as a strategy to, to do it, right? I mean, is there a playbook or some sort of situational, you know, sequence, >>Yes. One that works consistently is number one, you think about operations up front and if you can't solve operations, you have no business rolling out other applications and other databases that quite frankly can't be operated and that's how people are getting into trouble. So in other words, if you get into these very complex architectures, which is what a multicloud is, complex distributed system. Yeah. And you don't have an understanding of how you're gonna operationalize that system at scale, then you have no business in building the system. You have no business of going in a multicloud because you are going to run into that wall and it's gonna lead to a, an outage it's gonna lead to a breach or something that's gonna be company killing. >>So a lot of that's cultural, right. Having, having the cultural fortitude to say, we're gonna start there. We're gonna enforce these standards. >>That's what John CLE said. Yeah. CLE is famous line. >>Yeah, you're right. You're right. So, so, so what happens if the, if that as a consultant, if you, you probably have to insist on that first, right? Or, I mean, I don't know, you probably still do the engagement, but you, you're gonna be careful about promising an outcome aren't you, >>You're gonna have to insist on the fact they're gonna have to do some advanced planning and come up with a very rigorous way in which they're gonna roll it out. And the reality is if they're not doing that, then the advice would be you're gonna fail. So it's not a matter of when it's, when it's gonna happen. We're gonna, but at some point you're gonna fail either. Number one, you're gonna actually fail in some sort of a big disastrous event or more likely or not. You're gonna end up building something that's gonna cost you $10 million more a month to run and it's gonna be underoptimized. And is >>That effective when you, when you say that to a client or they say, okay, but, or do they say yes, you're >>Right. I view my role as a, someone like a doctor and a lawyer. You may not want to hear what I'm telling you. But the thing is, if I don't tell you the truth and I'm not doing my job as a trusted advisor. And so they'll never get anything but that from us, you know, as a firm and the reality is they can make their own decisions and will have to help them, whatever path they want to go. But we're making the warnings in place to make. >>And, and also also situationally it's IQ driven. Are they ready? What's their makeup. Are they have the kind of talent to execute. And there's a lot of unbeliev me. I totally think agree with on the op side, I think that's right on the money. The question I want to ask you is, okay, assume that someone has the right makeup of team. They got some badass people in there, coding away, DevOps, SREs, you name it. Everyone lined up platform teams, as they said today on stage, all that stuff. What's the CXO conversation at the boardroom that you, you have around business strategy. Cuz if you assume that cloud is here and you do things right and you get the right advisors in the next step is what does it transform my business into? Because you're talking about a fully digitalized business that converges it's not just, it helps you run an app back office with some terminal it's full blown business edge app business model innovation is it that the company becomes a cloud on their own and they have scale. And they're the super cloud of their category servicing a power law of second place, third place, SMB market. So I mean, Goldman Sachs could be the service provider cloud for financial services maybe. Or is that the dream? What, what's the dream for the, the, the CXO staff take us through the, >>What they're trying to do is get a level of automation with every able to leverage best breed technology to be as innovative as they possibly can. Using an architecture that's near a hundred percent optimized. It'll never be a hundred percent optimized. Therefore it's able to run, bring the best value to the business for the least amount of money. That's the big thing. If they want to become a cloud, that's, that's not a, not necessarily a good idea. If they're finance company be a finance company, just build these innovations around how to make a finance company be innovative and different for them. So they can be a disruptor without being disrupted. I see where see a lot of companies right now, they're gonna be exposed in the next 10 years because a lot of these smaller companies are able to weaponize technology to bring them to the next level, digital transformations, whatever, to create a business value. That's gonna be more compelling than the existing player >>Because they're on the CapEx back of Amazon or some technical innovation. Is that what the smaller guys, what's the, what's the lever that beats the >>It's the ability to use whatever technology you need to solve your issues. So in other words, I can use anything that exists on the cloud because it's part of the multi-cloud I'm I able to find the services that I need, the best AI system, the best database systems, the fastest transaction processing system, and assemble these syncs together to solve more innovative problems in my competitor. If I'm able to do that, I'm gonna win the game. So >>It's a buffet of technology. Pick your yes, your meal, come on, >>Case spray something, this operations, first thing in my head, remember Alan NA, when he came in the Cub and he said, listen, if you're gonna do cloud, you better change the operating model or you you're gonna make, you know, you'll drop millions to the bottom line. He was at CIO of Phillips at the time. You're not gonna drop billions. And it's all about, you know, the zeros, right? So do you find yourself in a lot of cases, sort of helping people rearchitect their operating model as a function of, of, of what cloud can, can enable? >>Yeah. Every, every engagement that we go into has operating model change op model changes, and typically it's gonna be major surgery. And so it's re reevaluating the skill sets, reevaluating, the operating model, reevaluating the culture. In fact, we have a team of people who come in and that's all they focus on. And so it used to be just kind of an afterthought. We'd put this together, oh, by the way, I think you need to do this and this and this. And here's what we recommend you do. But people who can go in and get cultural changes going get the operating models systems, going to get to the folks where they're gonna be successful with it. Reality. If you don't do that, you're gonna fail because you're not gonna have the ability to adapt to a cloud-based a cloud-based infrastructure. You can leverage this scale. >>David's like a masterclass here on the cube at VMware explore. Thanks for coming on. Thanks for spending the valuable time. Just what's going on in your world right now, take a quick minute to plug what's going on with you. What are you working on? What are you excited about? What what's happening, >>Loving life. I'm just running around doing, doing things like this, doing a lot of speaking, you know, still have the blog on in info world and have that for the last 12 years and just loving the fact that we're innovating and changing the world. And I'm trying to help as many people as I can, as quickly as I can. What's >>The coolest thing you've seen this year in terms of cloud kind of either weirdness coolness or something that made you fall outta your chair. Wow. That >>Was cool. I think the AI capabilities and application of AI, I'm just seeing use cases in there that we never would've thought about the ability to identify patterns that we couldn't identify in the past and do so for, for the good, I've been an AI analyst. It was my first job outta college and I'm 60 years old. So it's, it's matured enough where it actually impresses me. And so we're seeing applications >>Right now. That's NLP anymore. Is it? >>No, no, not list. That's what I was doing, but it's, we're able to take this technology to the next level and do, do a lot of good with it. And I think that's what just kind of blows me on the wall. >>Ah, I wish we had 20 more minutes, >>You know, one, one more masterclass sound bite. So we all kind of have kids in college, David and I both do young ones in college. If you're coming outta college, CS degree or any kind of smart degree, and you have the plethora of now what's coming tools and unlimited ways to kind of clean canvas up application, start something. What would you do if you were like 22? Right now, >>I would focus on being a multi-cloud architect. And I would learn a little about everything. Learn a little about at the various cloud providers. And I would focus on building complex distributed systems and architecting those systems. I would learn about how all these things kind of kind of run together. Don't learn a particular technology because that technology will ultimately go away. It'll be displaced by something else, learn holistically what the technologies is able to do and become the orchestrator of that technology. It's a harder problem to solve, but you'll get paid more for it. And it'll be more fun job. >>Just thinking big picture, big >>Picture, how everything comes together. True architecture >>Problems. All right, Dave is on the queue masterclass here on the cube. Bucha for Dave ante Explorer, 2022. Live back with our next segment. After this short break.

(upbeat music) (music fades) >> Welcome to today's session of theCUBE's presentation of the AWS Startup Showcase, I'm your host Natalie Erlich. Today, we're going to feature Olive, in the life sciences track. And of course, this is part of the future of AI, security, and life sciences. Here we're joined by our very special guest Rohan D'Souza, the Chief Product Officer of Olive. Thank you very much for being with us. Of course, we're going to talk today about building the internet of healthcare. I do you appreciate you joining the show. >> Thanks, Natalie. My pleasure to be here, I'm excited. >> Yeah, likewise. Well tell us about AI and how it's revolutionizing health systems across America. >> Yeah, I mean, we're clearly living around, living at this time of a lot of hype with AI, and there's a tremendous amount of excitement. Unfortunately for us, or, you know, depending on if you're an optimist or a pessimist, we had to wait for a global pandemic for people to realize that technology is here to really come into the aid of assisting everybody in healthcare, not just on the consumer side, but on the industry side, and on the enterprise side of delivering better care. And it's a truly an exciting time, but there's a lot of buzz and we play an important role in trying to define that a little bit better because you can't go too far today and hear about the term AI being used/misused in healthcare. >> Definitely. And also I'd love to hear about how Olive is fitting into this, and its contributions to AI in health systems. >> Yeah, so at its core, we, the industry thinks of us very much as an automation player. We are, we've historically been in the trenches of healthcare, mostly on the provider side of the house, in leveraging technology to automate a lot of the high velocity, low variability items. Our founding and our DNA is in this idea of, we think it's unfair that healthcare relies on humans as being routers. And we have looked to solve the problem of technology not talking to each other, by using humans. And so we set out to really go in into the trenches of healthcare and bring about core automation technology. And you might be sitting there wondering, well why are we talking about automation under the umbrella of AI? And that's because we are challenging the very status quo of siloed-based automation, and we're building, what we say, is the internet of healthcare. And more importantly what we've done is, we've brought in a human, very empathetic approach to automation, and we're leveraging technology by saying when one Olive learns, all Olives learn, so that we take advantage of the network effect of a single Olive worker in the trenches of healthcare, sharing that knowledge and wisdom, both with her human counterparts, but also with her AI worker counterparts that are showing up to work every single day in some of the most complex health systems in this country. >> Right. Well, when you think about AI and, you know, computer technology, you don't exactly think of, you know, humanizing kind of potential. So how are you seeking to make AI really humanistic, and empathetic, potentially? >> Well, most importantly the way we're starting with that is where we are treating Olive just like we would any single human counterpart. We don't want to think of this as just purely a technology player. Most importantly, healthcare is deeply rooted in this idea of investing in outcomes, and not necessarily investing in core technology, right? So we have learned that from the early days of us doing some really robust integrated AI-based solutions, but we've humanized it, right? Take, for example, we treat Olive just like any other human worker would, she shows up to work, she's onboarded, she has an obligation to her customers and to her human worker counterparts. And we care very deeply about the cost of the false positive that exists in healthcare, right? So, and we do this through various different ways. Most importantly, we do it in an extremely transparent and interpretable way. By transparent I mean, Olive provides deep insights back to her human counterparts in the form of reporting and status reports, and we even, we even have a term internally, that we call is a sick day. So when Olive calls in sick, we don't just tell our customers Olive's not working today, we tell our customers that Olive is taking a sick day, because a human worker that might require, that might need to stay home and recover. In our case, we just happened to have to rewire a certain portal integration because a portal just went through a massive change, and Olive has to take a sick day in order to make that fix, right? So. And this is, you know, just helping our customers understand, or feel like they can achieve success with AI-based deployments, and not sort of this like robot hanging over them, where we're waiting for Skynet to come into place, and truly humanizing the aspects of AI in healthcare. >> Right. Well that's really interesting. How would you describe Olive's personality? I mean, could you attribute a personality? >> Yeah, she's unbiased, data-driven, extremely transparent in her approach, she's empathetic. There are certain days where she's direct, and there are certain ways where she could be quirky in the way she shares stuff. Most importantly, she's incredibly knowledgeable, and we really want to bring that knowledge that she has gained over the years of working in the trenches of healthcare to her customers. >> That sounds really fascinating, and I love hearing about the human side of Olive. Can you tell us about how this AI, though, is actually improving efficiencies in healthcare systems right now? >> Yeah, not too many people know that about a third of every single US dollar is spent in the administrative burden of delivering care. It's really, really unfortunate. In the capitalistic world, of, just us as a system of healthcare in the United States, there is a lot of tail wagging the dog that ends up happening. Most importantly, I don't know that the last time, if you've been through a process where you have to go and get an MRI or a CT scan, and your provider tells you that we first have to wait for the insurance company in order to give us permission to perform this particular task. And when you think about that, one, there's, you know the tail wagging the dog scenario, but two, the administrative burden to actually seek the approval for that test, that your provider is telling you that you need to perform. Right? And what we've done is, as humans, or as sort of systems, we have just put humans in the supply chain of connecting the left side to the right side. So what we're doing is we're taking advantage of massive distributing cloud computing platforms, I mean, we're fully built on the AWS stack, we take advantage of things that we can very quickly stand up, and spin up. And we're leveraging core capabilities in our computer vision, our natural language processing, to do a lot of the tasks that, unfortunately, we have relegated humans to do, and our goal is can we allow humans to function at the top of their license? Irrespective of what the license is, right? It could be a provider, it could be somebody working in the trenches of revenue cycle management, or it could be somebody in a call center talking to a very anxious patient that just learned that he or she might need to take a test in order to rule out something catastrophic, like a very adverse diagnosis. >> Yeah, really fascinating. I mean, do you think that this is just like the tip of the iceberg? I mean, how much more potential does AI have for healthcare? >> Yeah, I think we're very much in the early, early, early days of AI being applied in a production in practical sense. You know, AI has been talked about for many, many many years, in the trenches of healthcare. It has found its place very much in challenging status quos in research, it has struggled to find its way in the trenches of just the practicality on the application of AI. And that's partly because we, you know, going back to the point that I raised earlier, the cost of the false positive in healthcare is really high. You know, it can't just be a, you know, I bought a pair of shoes online, and it recommended that I buy a pair of socks, and I happen to get the socks and I returned them back because I realized that they're really ugly and hideous and I don't want them. In healthcare, you can't do that. Right? In healthcare you can't tell a patient or somebody else oops, I really screwed up, I should not have told you that. So, what that's meant for us, in the trenches of delivery of AI-based applications, is we've been through a cycle of continuous pilots and proof of concepts. Now, though, with AI starting to take center stage, where a lot of what has been hardened in the research world can be applied towards the practicality to avoid the burnout, and the sheer cost that the system is under, we're starting to see this real upwards tick of people implementing AI-based solutions, whether it's for decision-making, whether it's for administrative tasks, drug discovery, it's just, is an amazing, amazing time to be at the intersection of practical application of AI and really, really good healthcare delivery for all of us. >> Yeah, I mean, that's really, really fascinating, especially your point on practicality. Now how do you foresee AI, you know, being able to be more commercial in its appeal? >> I think you have to have a couple of key wins under your belt, is number one, number two, the standard, sort of outcomes-based publications that is required. Two, I think we need, we need real champions on the inside of systems to support the narrative that us as vendors are pushing heavily on the AI-driven world or the AI-approachable world, and we're starting to see that right now. You know, it took a really, really long time for providers, first here in the United States, but now internationally, on this adoption and move away from paper-based records to electronic medical records. You know, you still hear a lot of pain from people saying oh my God, I used an EMR, but try to take the EMR away from them for a day or two, and you'll very quickly realize that life without an EMR is extremely hard right now. AI is starting to get to that point where, for us, we, you know, we treat, we always say that Olive needs to pass the Turing test. Right? So when you clearly get this, this sort of feeling that I can trust my AI counterpart, my AI worker to go and perform these tasks, because I realized that, you know, as long as it's unbiased, as long as it's data-driven, as long as it's interpretable, and something that I can understand, I'm willing to try this out in a routine basis, but we really, really need those champions on the internal side to promote the use of this safe application. >> Yeah. Well, just another thought here is, you know, looking at your website, you really focus on some of the broken systems in healthcare, and how Olive is uniquely prepared to shine the light on that, where others aren't. Can you just give us an insight onto that? >> Yeah. You know, the shine the light is a play on the fact that there's a tremendous amount of excitement in technology and AI in healthcare applied to the clinical side of the house. And it's the obvious place that most people would want to invest in, right? It's like, can I bring an AI-based technology to the clinical side of the house? Like decision support tools, drug discovery, clinical NLP, et cetera, et cetera. But going back to what I said, 30% of what happens today in healthcare is on the administrative side. And so what we call as the really, sort of the dark side of healthcare where it's not the most exciting place to do true innovation, because you're controlled very much by some big players in the house, and that's why we we provide sort of this insight on saying we can shine a light on a place that has typically been very dark in healthcare. It's around this mundane aspects of traditional, operational, and financial performance, that doesn't get a lot of love from the tech community. >> Well, thank you Rohan for this fascinating conversation on how AI is revolutionizing health systems across the country, and also the unique role that Olive is now playing in driving those efficiencies that we really need. Really looking forward to our next conversation with you. And that was Rohan D'Souza, the Chief Product Officer of Olive, and I'm Natalie Erlich, your host for the AWS Startup Showcase, on theCUBE. Thank you very much for joining us, and look forward for you to join us on the next session. (gentle music)

>>from >>Around the globe. It's the cube with digital coverage of IBM think 2021 brought to you by IBM >>Well welcome everyone is the cube continues or IBM Thanks series. It's a pleasure to have you with us here on the cube. I'm john walls and we're joined today by brian loves who is the director of offering management for customer and employee care applications in the at IBM in the data and AI division. So brian, thanks for joining us from Ottawa Canada, good to see you today. >>Yeah, great to be here john I'm looking forward to the session today >>which by the way I've learned Ottawa is the home of the world's largest ice skating rink. I doubt we'll get into that today, but it is interesting food for thought. Uh so brian first off, let's just talk about um the Ai landscape right now. I know IBM obviously very heavily invested in that uh just in terms of how you see this currently as in terms of enterprise adoption, what people are doing with it and and just how you would talk about the state of the industry right now, >>you know, it's a really interesting one, right? I think if you look at it, you know different companies, different industries frankly are at different stages of their Ai journey, right? Um I think for me personally what was really interesting was, and we're all going through the pandemic right now, but last year with covid 19 in the March timeframe, it was really interesting to see the impact, frankly in the space that I played predominantly in around customer care, right? When the pandemic hit immediately call centers, contact centres got flooded with calls, right? And so it created a lot of problems for organizations. But it was interesting to me is it accelerated a lot of adoption of ai to organizations that typically lag and technology. Right? So if you think about public sector, right, that was one area that got hit very, very hard with questions and those types of things and trying to communicate and communicate out information. So it was really interesting to see those organizations frankly accelerate really, really quickly, right? And if you actually talk to those organizations now, I think one of the most interesting things to me and thinking about it and talking to them now is like, hey, you know, we can do this right, AI is really not that complicated, it can be simplified, we can take advantage of it and all of those types of things. Right? So I think for me, you know, I kind of see different industries that sort of different levels, but I think with Covid in particularly, you know, and frankly not just Covid, but even digital transformation alongside Covid is really driving a lot of ai in an accelerated manner. The other thing I'll kind of I'll kind of talk to a little bit here is I still think we're very much in the early innings of this, right, there is a tremendous opportunity innovating in the space and I think we all know that you know data is continually being created every single day and as more people become even more digitalized, there's more and more data being created. Like how do you start to harness that data more effectively, right in your business every day? And frankly I think we're just scratching scratching the surface on it and I think tremendous amount of opportunity as we move forward. >>Yeah, he really is really raised an interesting point which I hadn't thought about in terms of, we think about disruptors, we think about technology being a disrupter, right? But in this case it was purely really, largely environment that was driving this disruption, right, forcing people to to make these adoption moves and transitions maybe a little quicker than they expected. So because of that, because maybe somebody had to speed up their timetable for deployments and what have you what what kind of challenges have they run into them? Where because, as you describe it, it's not been the more organic kind of decision making that might be made, sometimes situation dictated it. So what have you seen in terms of challenges, barriers or just a little more complexity perhaps for some people who are just not getting into the space because of the environment you were talking about? >>I think a lot of this is like people don't know where to get started, right, a lot of the time or how ai can be applied. So a lot of this is going to be a bad education in terms of what it can and cannot do, and then it all depends on the use cases you're talking about, right? So if I think about, you know, building a machine learning models and those types of things right? You know, this set of challenges that people will typically face in these types of things are, you know, how do I collect all the data that I need to go build these models? Right? How do I organize that data? Um you know, how do I get the skill sets needed to ultimately, you know, take advantage of all that data to actually then apply to where I needed in my business? Right, So a lot of this is, you know, people need to understand, you know, those concepts are those pieces um to ultimately be successful with AI and you know what IBM is doing right here and I'll kind of this will be a key theme through this conversation today, is how do you sort of lower the time to value, to get there across that spectrum, but also, you know, frankly the skills >>required along the way as >>well, but a lot of it is like people don't know what they don't know at the end of the day. Mhm. >>Well, let me ask you about about your AI play then, a lot of people involved in this space, as you well know, you know, competitions pretty fierce and pretty widespread, there's a deep bench here um in terms of IBM know, what do you see is kind of your market different differentiator then, you know, what what do you think set you apart in terms of what you're offering in terms of AI deployments and solutions? >>No, that's a great question. I think it's a multifaceted answer, frankly. Um the first thing I'll kind of talk through a little bit right, is really around our platform and our our framework, right? We could refer to as our air ladder, um but it's really an integrated, you know, sort of cohesive platform for companies around the journey to AI, right? So kind of what I was mentioning earlier, right? If you think about, you know, AI is really about supplying the right data into A I. And then being able to infuse it to where you needed to go. Right? So to do that, you need a lot of the underlying information architecture to do that, Right? So you need the ability to collect the data, you need the ability to organize the data, you need the ability to to build out these models, right? Or analyze the data and then of course you need to be able to infuse that ai wherever you need it to be. Right. And so we have a really nice integrated platform that frankly can be deployed on any cloud. Right? So we got the flexibility that deployment model with that in greater platform. And you think about it? We also have built right, you know, sort of these industry leading Ai applications that sit on top of that platform and that underlying infrastructure. Right? So Watson assistant, Right. Our conversational AI, which we'll talk probably a little bit more on this conversation. Right, Watson discovery focus on, you know, intelligent document processing, right. AI search type applications. We've got these sort of market leading applications that sit on top, but there's also other things, right? Like we have a very, very strong research arm right, that continues to invest and funnel innovations into our product platform and into our product portfolio. Right? I think many people are aware of project debater, we took on some of the top debaters in the world, right? But research ultimately is very much tied, right? And even some of the teams that I work with on the ground, we've got them tied directly into the squads that build these products, Right? So we have this really big strong research arm that continues to bring innovation around AI and around other aspects into that product portfolio. But it's not just go ahead, >>Please go ahead. three. No, no. You know, I interrupted you. Go ahead. >>No, I was just gonna say that the other two things, I'll say it like, you know, I'm saying this right, but we've got a lot of sort of proof points and around it. Right? So, if you talk about the scale right? The number of customers, the number of case studies, a number of references across the board, right? In around AI AT IBM It is significant, Right? Um, and not only that, but we've got a lot of sort of, I'll say industry and third party industry recognition. Right? So think about most people are aware of sort of Gartner magic quadrants, right? And we're the leader almost across the board, Right? Or a leader across the board. So cloudy I developer service inside engines, machine learning go down the line. So, you know, if you don't trust me, there's certainly a lot of third party validation around that as well. That makes sense. >>Yeah, it sure does. You know, we're hearing a lot about conversational AI and, you know, with online chat bots and voice assistance and a myriad applications in that respect. Let's talk about conversational right now. Some people think it's little narrow, but, but yet there appears to be a pretty broad opportunity at the same time. So let's talk about that conversational AI um, uh, element um, to what you're talking about at IBM and how that is coming into play and, and perhaps is a pretty big growth sector in this space. >>Yeah, I think again, I talked about scratching the surface early innings. You'll see that theme a lot too. And I think this is another area around that. So listen, let's talk about the broader side. Let's first talk about where conversation always typically applied. Right? So you see it in customer service, that's the obvious place we're seeing the most appointments in. But if you think about, it's not just really around customer service, right? There's use cases around sales and marketing. If you think about, you know, lead qualification, for example, right? How can, you know, I'm on a website, how can I get information about a product or service? How can I automate some of that information collection, answering questions? How can I schedule console? All those things can be automated using great conversationally. I, the organizations don't want these sort of point solutions across the customer journey. What we're ultimately looking for is a single assistant to kind of, you know, front right, that particular customer. So what if I do come on from a legal perspective, but really I'm not here for legal. I'm actually a customer and I want to get a question answered, right? You don't want to have these awkward starts and stops with organizations, Right? So on the customer side where we see the conversation like, hey, I going and it's really kind of covering that full gambit in terms of that customer journey, right? And it's not just the customer journey, but you also want to be across channels, right? So you can imagine right now, not just, you know, the website and the chat on the website, but also right across their messaging channels, right across your phone. Right. And not just that, but you also want to be a really nice experience around, hey, maybe I'm on a phone call with some automation, but I need to be able to hand them off to a digital play. Right? Maybe that's easier to sign up for a particular offer or do some authentication or whatever might be, right. So to sort of be able to sort of switch between the channels, it's really, really going to become more important in this sort of sort of seamless experience as you just kind of go through it. Right? >>So you're coming by customers. Yeah. >>You talked about customers a little bit and you mentioned case studies, but can we get, I hope we can get into some specifics. You can give us some examples about people, companies with whom you've worked and and some success that you've had that respect. And I think maybe the usual suspects come to mind about finance. I might health care, but you said anybody with customer call issues, service centers, that kind of thing would certainly come into play. But can you give us an idea or some examples of deployments and how this is actually working today? >>Oh, absolutely. Right. So I think you kind of mentioned you become sort of industries that are relevant. Right? So, you know, the ones that I think are most relevant that we've seen are the ones with the biggest sort of consumer sort of side to it. Right? So clearly in financial services, banks, insurance, and clearly obvious ones telecommunications, retail, healthcare, these are all sort of big industries with a lot of sort of customers coming in. Right? So you'll see different use cases in those industries as well. Right. So the obvious one, we've got a really good client, Royal Bank of Scotland, they've now changed their name to natwest Open Scotland. Um So they started out with customer service. Right? So dealing with personal banking questions through their website, what's interesting and you'll see this with a lot of these use cases is they will start small, right with a single use case that they'll start to expand from there. So, for example, >>natwest right there, starting with they started with personal banking, but they're not expanding to other areas of the business across that customer journey. Right. So it's a great example of where we've seen it. Cardinal Health Right. We're not dealing with customers in terms of external customers but dealing with internal customers right from the help that standpoint. So it's not always external customers. Oftentimes frankly it can be employees. Right? So they are using it right through an I. V. R. System. Right? So through over the phone. Right. So I can call instead of getting that 1 800 number. I'm going to get a nice natural language experience over the phone to help employees with common problems that they have with their health does so. And they started really, really small, right? They started with simple things like password resets but that represented a tremendous amount of volume but ultimately headed their cost cost centers. So not West is a great example. C I B C. Another bank in Canada Toronto is a great example and the nice thing about what CNBC is doing and there are big, you know, we have four big banks here in Canada, what have you seen do is really focusing a lot on the transactional side. So making it really easy to do interact transfers or send money or over those types of things or check your balance or whatever it might be. So putting a nice simple interface on some of those common transactional things that you >>would do with the bank as well, >>you know, before I let you go, uh I'd like to hit this of buzz where we hear a lot of these days natural language processing. NLP Alright, so, so NLP define that in terms of how you see it and and how is it being applied today? Why why does NLP matter? And what kind of difference is it making? >>Wow, that's a loaded natural language processing. There's a loaded term in a buzzword. I completely agree. I mean listen, at the 50,000 ft level, natural language processing is really about understanding length, Right? So what do I mean by that? So let's use the simple conversational example. We just talked about if somebody is asking about, I'd like to reset my password right? You have to be able to understand what is the intent behind what that user is trying to do right there? Trying to reset a password, right? So being able to understand that inquiry that the user has that's coming in and being able to understand what the intent is behind it. >>That's sort of one, you know, aspect of natural language processing, right? What is the intent or the topic around that paragraph or whatever it might be. The other sort of key thing around natural language processing the importance, extracting certain things that you need to know. And again using the conversational ai side, just for a minute to give a simple example if I said you know what I need to reset my password, I know what the intent is. I want to reset a password but Right I don't know which password I'm trying to reset. Right? So this is where you have to be able to extract objects and we call them entities a lot of time in sort of the ice bake or lingo but you've got to be able to extract those elements. So you know I want to reset my A. T. M. Password. Great. Right so I know what they're trying to do but I also need to extract that it's the A. T. M. Password that I'm trying to do. So that's one sort of key angle of natural language processing and there's a lot of different techniques to be able to do those types of things. I'll also tell you though there's a lot around the content side of the fence as well, right? So you can imagine having a contract, right? And there are thousands of these contracts and some of your terms may change. How do you know, out of those thousands of contracts where the problems are, where I need to start looking, Right? So another sort of keep key area of natural language processing is looking at the content itself. Can I look at these contracts and automatically understand that this is an indemnity clause, Right? And this is an obligation, right? Or those types of things, right? And be able to sort of pick pick those things out so that I can help deal with those sort of contract processing things. That's sort of a second dimension. The third dimensional kind of kind of give around this is really around. You can think about extracting things like sentiment, right? So we talked about, you know, extracting objects and downs and those types of things. But maybe I want to know and analytics use case with customers. Um you know, what is the sentiment and you know, analyzing social media posts or whatever it might be. What's the sentiment that people have around my product or service? So naturally this process, if you think about it, the real high level is really about how do I understand language? But there's a variety of sort of ways to do that if that makes sense? >>Yeah, sure. And I think there's a lot of people out there saying, yeah, the sooner we can identify exasperation, the better off we're going to be right and handling the problems. But it's hard work but it's to make our lives easier and congratulations for your fine work in that space. And thanks for joining us here on the cube. We appreciate the time. Today, brian, >>thank very much. >>You bet BRian Levine is talking to us from IBM talking about conversational Ai and what it can do for you. I'm john Walsh, thanks for joining us here on the cube. Mhm. >>Mhm.

>>From around the globe. It's the Cube with digital coverage of IBM think 2021 brought to you by IBM. Welcome back to the cubes coverage of IBM Think 2021 virtual. I'm john ferrier host of the cube. Got a great story here. Navigating Covid 19 with Watson advertising and weather channel conversations. Sherry back steen. Who's the gM of Watson advertising in the weather company. Sherry, thanks for coming on the cube. My favorite part of IBM think is to talk about the tech and also the weather company innovations. Thanks for coming on. >>Hi, happy to be here, john >>So COVID-19 obviously some impact for people that working at home. Um normally you guys have been doing a lot of innovation around weather weather data um certainly huge part of it. Right. And so lots been changing with AI and the weather company and IBM so let's first start before we jump in, just a little background about what your team has created because a lot of fascinating things here. Go ahead. >>Yeah. So when the pandemic started, you know we looked at the data that we were seeing and of course in weather accuracy and accurate data is really important trusted data. And so we created a COVID-19 hub on our weather channel app and on weather.com. And essentially what it was is an aggregated area where consumers could get the most up to date information on covid cases, deaths in their area, trends see heat maps uh information from the C. D. C. And what was unique about it. It was to a local level. Right so state level information is helpful but we know that consumers uh me included. I need information around what's happening around me. And so we were able to bring this down to a county level which we thought was really helpful for consumers >>share as watching sports on tv. And recently, a few months ago, the Masters was on and you saw people getting back into real life, It's almost like a weather forecast. Now. You want to know what's going on in the pandemic. People are sharing that. They're getting the vaccine. Um, really interesting. And so I want to understand how this all came together with you guys. Is was it something that has a weather data, a bunch of geeks saying, hey, we should do this for companies, but take us to the thought process with their team. Was it like you saw this as value? How did you get to this? Because this is an interesting user benefit. I want to know the weather, I want to know if it's safe. These are kind of a psychology of a user expectation. How did you guys connect the dots here for this project? >>Well, we certainly do have a very passionate team of people, um some weather geeks included, um and you're absolutely right watching the Masters a few months ago was amazing to see, you know, some sense of normality happening here. But you know, we looked at, you know, IBM, the weather company, like, how do we help during this pandemic? And when we thought about it, we looked at there's an amazing gap of information. And as the weather channel, you know, what we do is bring together data, give people insights and help them make decisions with that. And so it was really part of our mission. It's always been that way to give information to keep people safe. And so all we did is took a different data set and provided the same thing. And so in this case, the covid data set, which we actually had to, you know, aggregate from different sources whether it was the C. D. C. The World Health Organization uh State governments or county governments to provide this to consumers. But it was really really natural for us because we know what consumers want. You know we all want information around where we live, right? And then we want to see like where our friends live, where our relatives live to make sure that they're okay. And then that enables people to make the decisions that are right for their family. And so it was really really natural for us to do that. And then of course we have the technology to be able to scale to hundreds of millions of people. Which is really important. >>It's not obvious until you actually think about that. It's so obvious. Congratulations. What a great innovation. What were the biggest challenges you guys had to face and how did you overcome it? Because I'm curious. I see you've got a lot of, lot of large scale data dealing with diversity of data with weather. What was the challenges with Covid? And how did you overcome it? >>So again, without a doubt it was the data because you're looking at one, we wanted that county level data. So you're looking at multiple sources. So how do we aggregate this data? So first finding that trusted source that that we could use. But then how do you pull it in in an automated way? And the challenge was it with the State Department, the county departments that data came in all kinds of formats. Some counties used maps, some use charts, some use pds to get that information. So we had to pull all this unstructured data, uh, and then that data was updated at different times. So some counties did it twice a day, some did it once day, different time zones. So that really made it challenging. And so then, you know, so what we did is this is where the power of A I really helps because a I can take all of that data, bring in and organize it and then we could put it back out to the consumer in a very digestible way. And so we were able to do that. We built an automated pipeline around that so we can make sure that it was updated. It was fresh and timely, which was really important. But without a doubt looking at that structured data and unstructured data and really helping it to make sense to the consumer was the biggest challenge. And what's interesting about it. Normally it would take us months to do something like that. I challenged the team to say we don't have months, we have days. They turned that around in eight days, which was just an amazing herculean feat. But that's really just the power of, as you said, passionate people coming together to do something so meaningful. >>I love the COVID-19 success stories when people rally around their passion and also their expertise. What was the technology to the team used? Because the theme here at IBM think is transformation innovation, scale. How did you move so fast to make that happen? >>So we move fast by our Ai capabilities and then using IBM cloud and so really there's four key components are like four teams that worked on it. So first there was the weather company team um and because we are a consumer division of IBM, we know what consumers want. So we understand the user experience and the design, but we also know how to build an A. P. I. That can scale because you're talking about being able to scale not only in a weather platform. So in the midst of covid weather still happened, so we still had severe weather record breaking hurricane season. And so those A. P. S. Have to scale to that volume. Then the second team was the AI team. So that used the Watson AI team mixed with the weather Ai team to again bring in that data to organize that data. Um And we used Watson NLP so natural natural language processing in order to create that automated pipeline. Then we had the corralled infrastructure so that platform team that built that architecture and that data repository on IBM cloud. And then the last team was our data privacy office. So making sure that that data was trusted that we have permission to use it uh and just know really that data governance. So it's all of that technology and all of those teams coming together to build this hub for consumers. Um And it worked I mean we would have about four million consumers looking at that hub every single day. Um and even like a year later we still have a couple million people that access that information. So it's really kind of become more like the weather checking the weather's come that daily habit. >>That's awesome. And I gotta I gotta imagine that these discoveries and innovations that was part of this transformation at scale have helped other ways outside the pandemic and you share how this is connected to um other benefits outside the pandemic. >>Yeah so absolutely um you know ai for businesses part of IBM strategy and so really helping organizations to help predict um you know to help take workloads and automate them. So they're high valued employees can work on you know other work. And also you know to bring that personalization to customers. You know, it's really a i when I look at it for my own part of a IBM with the weather company, three things where I'm using this technology. So the first one is around advertising. So the advertising industry is at a really um you know, pivotal part right now, a lot of turmoil and challenges because of privacy legislation because big tech companies are um you know, getting rid of tracking pixels that we normally use to drive the business. So we've created a suite of AI solutions for publishers for you know, different players within the ad tech space, um which is really important because it protects the open web, so like getting covid information or weather information, all of that is free information to the public. We just ask that you underwrite it by seeing advertising so we can keep it free. So those products protect the open red. So really, really important. Then on the consumer side of my business, within the weather channel, we actually used Watson Ai um to connect health with weather. So we know that there's that connection, some health um you know, issues that people have can be impacted by weather, like allergies and flew. So we've actually used Watson Ai to build a um Risk of flu that goes 15 days out. So we can tell people in your local area this one actually goes down to the zip code level, um the risk of flu in your area or the risk of allergies. So help to manage your symptoms, take your prescription. So, um that's a really interesting way. We're using AI and of course weather dot com and our apps are on IBM cloud, so we have this strong infrastructure to support that. And then lastly, you know, our weather forecasting has always been rooted in a i you take 100 different weather models, you apply ai to that to get the best and most accurate forecasts that you deliver. Um and so we are using these technologies every day to, you know, move our business forward and to provide, you know, weather services for people. >>I just love the automation and as users have smartphones and more instrumentation on their bodies, whether it's wearables, people will plan their day around the weather, and retail shops will have a benefit knowing what the stock and or not have on hand and how to adjust that. This, the classic edge computing paradigm, fascinating impact. You wouldn't think about that, but that's a pretty big deal. People are planning >>around >>the weather data and making that available is critical. >>Oh, absolutely. You know, every business needs a weather strategy because whether it impacts your supply chain, um agriculture, should I be watering today or not even around, you know, um, if you think about energy and power lines, you know, the vegetation growth over power lines can bring power lines down and it's a disruption, you know, to customers and power. So there's just when you start thinking about it, you're like, wow, whether really impacts every business, um, not to say just consumers in general and their daily lives. >>And uh, and there's a lot of cloud scale to that can help companies whether it's um be part of a better planet or smarter planet as it's been called, and help with with global warming. I mean, you think about this is all kind of been contextually relevant now more than ever. Super exciting. Um Great stuff. I want to get your take on outside of um the IBM response to the pandemic more broadly outside of the weather. What are you guys doing um to help? Are you guys doing anything else with industry? How could you talk a little bit more about IBM s response more broadly to the pandemic? >>Yeah so IBM has been you know working with government academia, industry is really from the beginning uh in several different ways. Um you know the first one of the first things we did is it opened up our intellectual property. So R. I. P. And our technology our supercomputing To help researchers really try to understand COVID-19 some of the treatments and possible cures so that's been really beneficial as it relates to that. Um Some other things though, that we're doing as well is we created a chat bots that companies and clients could use and this chat but could either be used to help train teachers because they have to work remotely or help other workers as well. Um and also the chatbots was helping as companies started to re enter back to the workforce and getting back to the office. So the chatbots been really helpful there. Um and then, you know, one of the things that we've been doing on the advertising side is we actually have helped the ad council with their vaccine campaign. Um It's up to you is the name of the campaign and we delivered a ad unit that can dynamically assemble a creative in real time to make sure that the right message was getting out the right time to the right person. So it's really helped to maximize that campaign to reach people um and encourage them if it's the right thing for them, you know where the vaccines are available. Um and that you know, they could take those. So a lot of great work that's going on within IBM. Um and actually the most recent thing just actually in the past month is we release the Digital Health Pass in cooperation with the state of new york. Um and this is a fantastic tool because it is a way for individuals to keep their private information around their vaccines or you know, some of the Covid test they've been having on a mobile device that's secure and we think that this is going to be really important as cities start to reopen um to have that information easily accessible. >>Uh sure, great insight, um great innovation navigating Covid 19 a lot of innovation transformation at IBM and obviously Watson and the weather company using AI and also, you know, when we come out of Covid post, post Covid as real life comes back, we're still going to be impacted. We're gonna have new innovations, new expectations, tracking, understanding what's going on, not just the weather. So thanks >>for absolutely great >>work. Um, awesome. Thank you. >>Great. Thanks john good to see you. >>Okay. This is the cubes coverage of IBM. Think I'm john for a host of the cube. Thanks for watching. Yeah.

>> Announcer: From around the globe. It's theCUBE with digital coverage of IBM Think 2021, brought to you by IBM. >> Oh, welcome back to theCUBE's coverage of IBM Think 2021 virtual, I'm John Furrier, your host of theCUBE. We've got a great story here. Navigating COVID-19 with Watson advertising and weather channel conversations, Sheri Bachstein, who's the GM of Watson Advertising in the weather company. Sheri, thanks for coming on theCUBE. My favorite part of IBM Think is to talk about the tech and also the weather company innovations. Thanks for coming on. >> Hi, happy to be here John. >> So COVID-19 obviously some impact for people that working at home. Normally you guys have been doing a lot of innovation around weather, weather data, certainly huge part of it. And so lots been changing with AI and the weather company and IBM, so let's first start before we jump in just a little background about what your team has created because a lot of fascinating things here. Go ahead. >> Yeah, so when the pandemic started, we looked at the data that we were seeing and of course in weather accuracy and accurate data is really important trusted data. And so we created a COVID-19 hub on our weather channel app and on weather.com and essentially what it was is an aggregated area where consumers could get the most up-to-date information on COVID cases, deaths in their area, trends see heat maps, information from the CDC. And what was unique about it, it was to a local level, right? So state level information is helpful, but we know that consumers me included. I need information around what's happening around me. And so we were able to bring this down to a County level which we thought was really helpful for consumers >> Sheri's watching sports on TV. And recently a few months ago, the masters was on and you saw people getting back into real life. It's almost like a weather forecast. Now you want to know what's going on in the pandemic. People are sharing that they're getting the vaccine, really interesting. And so I want to understand how this all came together with you guys. Was it something that as a weather data and a bunch of geeks saying, Hey, we should do this for companies but take us to thought process 113. Was it like you saw this as value? How did you get to this? Because this is an interesting user benefit. I want to know the weather. I want to know if it's safe. These are kind of a psychology of a user expectation. How did you guys connect the dots here for this project? >> Well, we certainly do have a very passionate team of people some weather geeks included and you're absolutely right. Watching the masters a few months ago was amazing to see some sense of normality happening here. But we looked at IBM and the weather company like how do we help during this pandemic? And when we thought about it we looked at there's an amazing gap of information. And as the weather channel, what we do is bring together data give people insights and help them make decisions with that. And so it was really part of our mission. It's always been that way to give information to keep people safe. And so all we did is took a different data set and provided the same thing. And so in this case, the COVID data set which we actually had to aggregate from different sources whether it was the CDC, the world health organization, a state governments, our County governments to provide this to consumers. But it was really, really natural for us because we know what consumers want. We all want information around where we live, right? And then we want to see like where our friends live, where our relatives live to make sure that they're okay. And then if that enables people to make the decisions that are right for their family. And so it was really, really natural for us to do that. And then of course we have the technology to be able to scale to hundreds of millions of people, which is really important. >> Yeah, it's not obvious until you actually think about it, then it's so obvious. Congratulations, what a great innovation what were the biggest challenges you guys had to face and how did you overcome it? Because I'm curious, I see you got a lot of large scale data dealing with diversity of data with weather. What was the challenges with COVID and how did you overcome it? >> So again, without a doubt it was the data, because you're looking at one, we wanted that County level data. So you're looking at multiple sources. So how do we aggregate this data? So first finding that trusted source that we could use but then how do you pull it in, in an automated way? And the challenge was it with the state departments, the County departments, that data came in, all kinds of formats. Some counties used maps, some use charts some use PDFs to get that information. So we had to pull all this unstructured data and then that data was updated at different times. So some counties did it twice a day some did it once a day, different time zones. So that really made it challenging. And so then, so what we did is this is where the power of AI really helps, because AI can take all of that data bring it in, organize it, and then we could put it back out to the consumer in a very digestible way. And so we were able to do that. We built an automated pipeline around that so we can make sure that it was updated. It was fresh and timely, which was really important but without a doubt, looking at that structured data and unstructured data and really helping it to make sense to the consumer was the biggest challenge. And I'll, what's interesting about it. Normally it would take us months to do something like that. I challenged the team to say, we don't have months. We have days. They turned that around in eight days which was just an amazing Herculean feat but that's really just the power of as you said, passionate people coming together to do something so meaningful. >> I love the COVID-19 success stories when people rally around their passion and also their expertise, what was the technology did the team use? Because the theme here at IBM Think is, transformation, innovation, scale. How did you move so fast to make that happen? >> So we moved fast by our AI capabilities and then using IBM cloud. And so really there's four key components or like four teams that worked on it. So first there was the weather company team. And because we are a consumer division of IBM we know what consumers want. So we understand the user experience and the design but we also know how the build an API that can scale because you're talking about being able to scale not only in a weather platform. So in the midst of COVID weather still happen. So we still had severe weather record breaking hurricane season. And so those APIs have to scale to that volume. Then the second team was the AI team. So that used the Watson AI team mixed with the weather AI team to again bring in that data to organize that data. And we use Watson NLP. So natural language processing in order to create that automated pipeline. Then we had the collateral infrastructure. So that platform team that built that architecture and that data repository on IBM cloud. And then the last team was our data privacy office. So making sure that that data was trusted that we have permission to use it and just really that data governance. So it was all of that technology and all of those teams coming together to build this hub for consumers. And it worked, I mean we would have about 4 million consumers looking at that hub every single day. And even like a year later, we still have a couple million people that access that information. So it's really kind of become more like the weather checking the weather, that daily habit. >> That's awesome. And I got to imagine that these discoveries and these innovations that was part of this transformation that scale I've helped other ways outside of the pandemic. Can you share how this is connected to other benefits outside the pandemic? >> Yeah, so absolutely, AI for business is part of IBM strategy. And so really helping organizations to help predict, to help take workloads and automate them. So they're high valued employees can work on other work and also to bring that personalization to customers is really AI. When I look at it for my own part of a IBM with the weather company, three things where I'm using this technology. So the first one is around advertising. So the advertising industry is at a really pivotal part right now, a lot of turmoil and challenges because of privacy legislation because big tech companies are getting rid of tracking pixels that we normally use to drive the business. So we've created a suite of AI solutions for publishers, for different players within the ad tech space which is really important because it protects the open web. So like getting COVID information or weather information all of that is free information to the public. We just ask that you underwrite it by saying advertising so we can keep it free. So those products protect the open read. So really, really important. Then on the consumer side of my business within the weather channel we actually use Watson AI to connect health with weather. So we know that there's that connection. Some health issues that people have can be impacted by weather like allergies and flu. So we've actually used Watson AI to build a risk of flu that goes 15 days out. So we can tell people in your local area this one actually goes down to the zip code level the risk of flu in your area or the risk of allergies. So it help to manage your symptoms, take your prescription. So that's a really interesting way we're using AI and of course, weather.com and our apps are an IBM cloud. So we have this strong infrastructure to support that. And then lastly our weather forecasting has always been rooted in AI. You take a hundred different weather models you apply AI to that to get the best and most accurate forecast that you deliver. And so we are using these technologies every day to move our business forward and to provide weather services for people. >> I just love the automation as users have smartphones and more instrumentation on their bodies, whether it's wearables, people will plan their day around the weather and retail shops will have a benefit knowing what to stock or not have on hand and how to adjust that this the classic edge computing paradigm, fascinating impact. You wouldn't think about that, but that's a pretty big deal. People are planning around the weather data and making that available as critical. >> Oh, absolutely. Every business needs a weather strategy because whether it impacts your supply chain, agriculture should I be watering today or not, even around if you think about energy and power lines, the vegetation growth of our power lines can bring power lines down and it's a disruption, to customers and power. So there's just, when you start thinking about it you're like, wow, weather really impacts every business not to say just consumers in general and their daily life. >> Yeah, and there's a lot of cloud scale too, that can help companies whether it's be part of better planet or smarter planet as it's been called and help with, with global warming. I mean, you think about this is all kind of been contextually relevant now more than ever super exciting, great stuff. I want to get your take on outside of the IBM response to the pandemic, more broadly outside of the weather. What are you guys doing to help? Are you guys doing anything else with industry? How could you, talk a little bit more about IBM's response more broadly to the pandemic? >> Yeah, so IBM has been working with government academia industries really from the beginning in several different ways. The first, one of the first things we did is it opened up our intellectual property. So our IP and our technology, our super computing to help researchers, really try to understand COVID-19, some of the treatments and possible cures. So that's been really beneficial as it relates to that. Some other things though that we're doing as well is we created a Chatbot that companies and clients could use. And this Chatbot could either be used to help train teachers because they have to work remotely or help other workers as well. And also the Chatbot was helping as companies started to reenter back to the workforce and getting back to the office. So the Chatbot has been really helpful there. And then one of the things that we've been doing on the advertising side is we actually have helped the ad council with their vaccine campaign. It's up to you as the name of the campaign. And we delivered a ad unit that can dynamically assemble a creative in real time to make sure that the right message was getting out the right time to the right person. So it's really helped to maximize that campaign to reach people. And they encourage them if it's the right thing for them, where the vaccines are available and that they could take those. So a lot of great work that's going on within IBM and actually the most recent thing just actually in the past month is we released the digital health pass in cooperation with the state of New York. And this is a fantastic tool because it is a way for individuals to keep their private information around their vaccines, or some of the COVID tests they've been having on a mobile device that's secure. And we think that this is going to be really important as cities start to reopen to have that information easily accessible. >> Awesome Sheri, great insight, great innovation navigating COVID-19, lots of innovation transformation at IBM and obviously Watson and the weather company using AI. And also, when we come out of COVID post COVID, as real life comes back, we're still going to be impacted. We're going to have new innovations, new expectations, tracking, understanding what's going on not just the weather. So thanks for doing that great work. Awesome, thank you. >> Great, thanks John. Good to see you. >> This is theCUBE's coverage of IBM Think, I'm John Furrier, the host of theCUBE. Thanks for watching. (upbeat music)

>> From The Cube Studios in Palo Alto and Boston connecting with thought-leaders all around the world, this is a Cube Conversation. >> Hello, everyone, and welcome to this Cube Conversation, I'm Dave Vellante. Now, you know I love data, and today we're going to introduce you to a new data and analytical platform, and we're going to take it to the world of cloud database and data warehouses. And with me is Sagar Kadakia who's the head of Enterprise IT (indistinct) 7Park Data. Sagar, welcome back to the Cube. Good to see you. >> Thank you so much, David. I appreciate you having me back on. >> Hey, so new gig for you, how's it going? Tell us about 7Park Data. >> Yeah. Look, things are going well. It started at about two months ago, just a, you know, busy. I had a chance last, you know a few months to kind of really dig into the dataset. We have a tremendous amount of research coming out in Q4 Q1 around kind of the public cloud database market public cloud analytics market. So, you know, really looking forward to that. >> Okay, good. Well, let's bring up the first slide. Let's talk about where this data comes from. Tell us a little bit more about the platform. Where's the insight. >> Yeah, absolutely. So I'll talk a little about 7Park and then we'd kind of jump into the data a little bit. So 7Park was founded in 2012 in terms of differentiator, you know with other alternative data firms, you know we use NLP machine learning, you know AI to really kind of, you know, structure like noisy and unstructured data sets really kind of generate insight from that. And so, because a lot of that know how we ended up being acquired by Vista back in 2018. And really like for us, you know the mandate there is to really, you know look across all their different portfolio companies and try to generate insight from all the data assets you know, that these portfolio companies have. So, you know, today we're going to be talking about you know, one of the data sets from those companies it's that cloud infrastructure data set. We get it from one of the portfolio companies that you know, helps organizations kind of manage and optimize their cloud spend. It's real time data. We essentially get this aggregated daily. So this certainly different than, you know your traditional providers maybe giving you quarterly or kind of by annual data. This is incredibly granular, real time all the way down to the invoice level. So within this cloud infrastructure dataset we're tracking several billion dollars worth of spend across AWS, Azure and GCP. Something like 350 services across like 20 plus markets. So, you know, security machine learning analytics database which we're going to talk about today. And again like the granularity of the KPIs I think is kind of really what kind of you know, differentiates this dataset you know, with just within database itself, you know we're tracking over 20 services. So, you know, lots to kind of look forward to kind of into Q4 and Q1. >> So, okay. So the main spring of your data is if I'm a customer and I there's a service out there there are many services like this that can help me optimize my spend and the way they do that is I basically connect their APIs. So they have visibility on what the transactions that I'm making my usage statistics et cetera. And then you take that and then extrapolate that and report on that. Is that right? >> Exactly. Yeah. We're seeing just on this one data set that we're going to talk about today, it's something like six 700 million rows worth of data. And so kind of what we do is, you know we kind of have the insight layer on top of that or the analytics layer on top of all that unstructured data, so that we can get a feel for, you know a whole host of different kind of KPIs spend, adoption rates, market share, you know product size, retention rates, spend, you know, net price all that type of stuff. So, yeah, that's exactly what we're doing. >> Love it, there's more transparency the better. Okay. So, so right, because this whole world of market sizing has been very opaque you know, over the years, and it's like you know, backroom conversations, whether it's IDC, Gartner who's got what don't take, you know and the estimations and it's very, very, you know it's not very transparent so I'm excited to see what you guys have. Okay. So, so you have some data on the public cloud and specifically the database market that you want to share with our audience. Let's bring up the next graphic here. What are we looking at here Sagar? What are these blue lines and red lines what's this all about? >> Yeah. So and look, we can kind of start at the kind of the 10,000 foot view kind of level here. And so what we're looking at here is our estimates for the entire kind of cloud database market, including data warehousing. If you look all the way over to the right I'll kind of explain some of these bars in a minute but just high level, you know we're forecasting for this year, $11.8 billion. Now something to kind of remember about that is that's just AWS, Azure and GCP, right? So that's not the entire cloud database market. It's just specific to those three providers. What you're looking at here is the breakout and blue and purple is SQL databases and then no SQL databases. And so, you know, to no one's surprise here and you can see, you know SQL database is obviously much larger from a revenue standpoint. And so you can see just from this time last year, you know the database market has grown 40% among these three cloud providers. And, you know, though, we're not showing it here, you know from like a PI perspective, you know database is playing a larger and larger role for all three of these providers. And so obviously this is a really hot market, which is why, you know we're kind of discussing a lot of the dynamics. You don't need to Q and Q Q4 and Q1 >> So, okay. Let's get into some of the specific firm-level data. You have numbers that you want to share on Amazon Redshift and Google BigQuery, and some comments on Snowflake let's bring up the next graphic. So tell us, it says public cloud data, warehousing growth tempered by Snowflake, what's the data showing. And let's talk about some of the implications there. >> Yeah, no problem. So yeah, this is kind of one of the markets, you know that we kind of did a deep dive in tomorrow and we'll kind of get this, you know, get to this in a few minutes, we're kind of doing a big CIO panel kind of covering data, warehousing, RDBMS documents store key value, graph all these different database markets but I thought it'd be great, you know just cause obviously what's occurring here and with snowflake to kind of talk about, you know the data warehousing market, you know, look if you look here, these are some of the KPIs that we have you know, and I'll kind of start from the left. Here are some of the orange bars, the darker orange bars. Those are our estimates for AWS Redshift. And so you can see here, you know we're projecting about 667 million in revenue for Redshift. But if you look at the lighter arm bars, you can see that the service went from representing about 2% of you know, AWS revenue to about 1.5%. And we think some of that is because of Snowflake. And if we kind of, take a look at some of these KPIs you know, below those bar charts here, you know one of the things that we've been looking at is, you know how are longer-term customer spending and how are let's just say like newer customers spending, so to speak. So kind of just like organic growth or kind of net expansion analysis. And if you look at on the bottom there, you'll see, you know customers in our dataset that we looked at, you know that were there 3Q20 as well as 3Q19 their spend on AWS Redshift is 23%. Right? And then look at the bifurcation, right? When we include essentially all the new customers that onboard it, right after 3Q19, look at how much they're bringing down the spend increase. And it's because, you know a lot of spend that was perhaps meant for Redshift is now going to Snowflake. And look, you would expect longer-term customers to spend more than newer customers. But really what we're doing is here is really highlighting the stark contrast because you have kind of back to back KPIs here, you know between organic spend versus total spend and obviously the deceleration in market share kind of coming down. So, you know, something that's interesting here and we'll kind of continue tracking that. >> Okay. So let's maybe come back to this mass Colombo questions here. So the start with the orange side. So we're talking about Snowflake being 667 million. These are your estimates extrapolated based on what we talked about earlier, 1.5% of the AWS portfolio of course you see things like, they continue to grow. Amazon made a bunch of storage announcements last week at the first week of re-invent (indistinct) I mean just name all kinds of databases. And so it's competing with a lot of other services in the portfolio and then, but it's interesting to see Google BigQuery a much larger percentage of the portfolio, which again to me, makes sense people like BigQuery. They like the data science components that are built in the machine learning components that are built in. But then if you look at Snowflake's last quarter and just on a run rate basis, it's over there over $600 million. Now, if you just multiply their last quarter by four from a revenue standpoint. So they got Redshift in their sites, you know if this is, you know to the extent this is the correct number and I know it's an estimate but I haven't seen any better numbers out there. Interesting Sagar, I mean Snowflake surpassed the value of snowflakes or past service now last Friday, it's probably just in trading today you know, on Monday it's maybe Snowflake is about a billion dollars less than the in value than IBM. So you're saying snowflake in a lot of attention, post IPO the thing is even exploded more. I mean, it's crazy. And I presume that's rippled into the customer interest areas. Now the ironic thing here of course, is that that snowflake most of its revenue comes from AWS running on AWS at the same time, AWS and or Redshift and snowflake compete. So you have this interesting dynamic going on. >> Yeah. You know, we've spoken to so many CIOs about kind of the dynamics here with Redshift and BigQuery and Snowflake, you know as it kind of pertains to, you know, Redshift and Snowflake. I think, you know, what I've heard the most is, look if you're using Redshift, you're going to keep using it. But if you're new to data warehousing kind of, so to speak you're going to move to Snowflake, or you're going to start with Snowflake, you know, that and I think, you know when it comes to data warehousing, you're seeing a lot of decisions kind of coming from, you know, bottom up now. So a lot of developers and so obviously their preference is going to be Snowflake. And then when you kind of look at BigQuery here over to the right again, like look you're seeing revenue growth, but again, as a as a percentage of total, you know, GCP revenue you're seeing it come down and look, we don't show it here. But another dynamic that we're seeing amongst BigQuery is that we are seeing adoption rates fall versus this time last year. So we think, again, that could be because of Snowflake. Now, one thing to kind of highlight here with BigQuery look it's kind of the low cost alternative, you know, so to speak, you know once Redshift gets too expensive, so to speak, you know you kind of move over to, to BigQuery and we kind of put some price KPIs down here all the way at the bottom of the chart, you know kind of for both of them, you know when you kind of think about the net price per kind of TB scan, you know, Redshift does it pro rate right? It's five bucks or whatever you, you know whatever you scan in, whereas, you know GCP and get the first terabyte for free. And then everything is prorated after that. And so you can see the net price, right? So that's the price that people actually pay. You can see it's significantly lower that than Redshift. And again, you know it's a lower cost alternative. And so when you think about, you know organizations or CIO's that want to save some money certainly BigQuery, you know, is an option. But certainly I think just overall, you know, Snowflake is is certainly having, you know, an impact here and you can see it from, you know the percentage of total revenue for both these coming down. You know, if we look at other AWS database services or you mentioned a few other services, you know we're not seeing that trend, we're seeing, you know percentage of total revenue hang in or accelerate. And so that's kind of why we want to point this out as this is something unique, you know for AWS and GCP where even though you're seeing growth, it's decelerating. And then of course you can kind of see the percentage of revenue represents coming down. >> I think it's interesting to look at these two companies and then of course Snowflake. So if you think about Snowflake and BigQuery both of those started in the cloud they were true born in the cloud databases. Whereas Redshift was a deal that Amazon did, you know with parxl back in the day, one time license fee and then they re-engineered it to be kind of cloud based. And so there is some of that historical o6n-prem baggage in there. I know that AWS did a tremendous job in rearchitecting that but nonetheless, so I'll give you a couple of examples. If you go back to last year's reinvent 2019 of course Snowflake was really the first to popularize this idea of separating compute from storage and even compute from compute, which is kind of nuance. So I won't go into that, but the idea being you can dial up or dial down compute as you need it you can even turn off compute in the world of Snowflake and just, you know, you're paying an S3 for storage charges. What Amazon did last reinvent was they announced the separation of compute and storage, but what the way they did it was they did it with a tiering architecture. So you can't ever actually fully turn off the compute, but it's great. I mean, it's customers I've talked to say, yes I'm saving a lot of money, you know, with this approach. But again, there's these little nuances. So what Snowflake announced this year was their data cloud and what the data cloud is as a whole new architecture. It's based on this global mesh. It lives across both AWS and Azure and GCP. And what Snowflake has done is they've taken they've abstracted the complexity of the clouds. So you don't even necessarily have to know what you're running on. You have to worry about it any Snowflake user inside of that data cloud if given access can share data with any other user. So it's a very powerful concept that they're doing. AWS at reinvent this year announced something called AWS glue elastic views which basically allows you to take data across their entire database portfolio. And I'm going to put, share in quotes. And I put it in quotes because it's essentially doing copying from a source pushing to a target AWS database and then doing a change data management capture and pushes that over time. So it, it feels like kind of an attempt to do their own data cloud. The advantages of AWS is that they've got way more data stores than just Snowflake cause it's one data store. So was AWS says Aurora dynamo DB Redshift on and on and on streaming databases, et cetera where Snowflake is just Snowflake. And so it's going to be interesting to see, you know these two juxtaposing philosophies but I want it to sort of lay that out because this is just it's setting up as a really interesting dynamic. Then you can bring in Azure as well with Microsoft and what they're doing. And I think this is going to be really fascinating to see how this plays out over the next decade. >> Yeah. I think some of the points you brought up maybe a little bit earlier were just around like the functional limits of a Redshift. Right. And I think that's where, you know Snowflake obviously does it does very, very well you know, you kind of have these, you know kind of to come, you know, you kind of have these, you know if you kind of think about like the market drivers right? Like, let's think about even like the prior slide that we showed, where we saw overall you know, database growth, like what's driving all of that what's driving Redshift, right. Obviously proximity application, interdependencies, right. Costs. You get all the credits or people are already working with the big three providers. And so there's so many reasons to continue spending with them, obviously, you know, COVID-19 right. Obviously all these apps being developed right in the cloud versus data centers and things of that nature. So you have all of these market drivers, you know for the cloud database services for Redshift. And so from that perspective, you know you kind of think, well why are people even to go to a third party vendor? And I think, you know, at that point it has to be the functional superiority. And so again, like a lot of times it depends on, you know, where decisions are coming from you know, top down or bottom up obviously at the engineering at the developer level they're going to want better functionality. Maybe, you know, top-down sometimes, you know it's like, look, we have a lot of credits, you know we're trying to save money, you know from a security perspective it could just be easier to spin something up you know, in AWS, so to speak. So, yeah, I think these are all the dynamics that, you know organizations have to figure out every day, but at least within the data warehousing space, you are seeing spend go towards Snowflake and it's going away to an extent as we kind of see, you know growth decelerate for both of these vendors, right. It's not that revenue's not going out there is growth which is that growth is, it's just not the same as it used to be, you know, so to speak. So yeah, this is a interesting area to kind of watch and I think across all the other markets as well, you know when you think about document store, right you have AWS document DB, right. What are the impacts there with with Mongo and some of these other kind of third party data warehousing vendors, right. Having to compete with all the, you know all the different services offered by AWS Azure like the cosmos and all that stuff. So, yeah, it's definitely kind of turning into a battle Royal, you know as we kind of head into, into 2021. And so I think having all these KPIs is really helping us kind of break down and figure out, you know which areas like data warehousing are slowing down. But then what other areas in database where they're seeing a tremendous amount of acceleration, like as we said, database revenue is driving. Like it's becoming a bigger part of their overall revenue. And so they are doing well. It just, you know, there's obviously snowflake they have to compete with here. >> Well, and I think maybe to your point I infer from your point, it's not necessarily a zero sum game. And as I was discussing before, I think Snowflake's really trying to create a new market. It's not just trying to steal share from the Terra datas and the Redshifts and the PCPs of the world, big queries and and Azure SQL server and Oracle and so forth. They're trying to create a whole new concept called the data cloud, which to me is really important because my prediction is what Snowflake is doing. And they don't even really talk a ton about this but they sort of do, if you squint through the lines I think what they're doing is first of all, simplicity is there, what they're doing. And then they're putting data in the hands of business people, business line people who have domain context, that's a whole new way of thinking about a data architecture versus the prevalent way to do a data pipeline is you got data engineers and data scientists, and you ingest data. It's goes to the beginning of the pipeline and that's kind of a traditional way to do it. And kind of how I think most of the AWS customers do it. I think over time, because of the simplicity of Snowflake you're going to see people begin to look at new ways to architect data. Anyway, we're almost out of time here but I want to bring up the next slide which is a graphic, which talks about a database discussion that you guys are having on 12/8 at 2:00 PM Eastern time with Bain and Verizon who what's this all about. >> Yeah. So, you know, one of the things we wanted to do is we kind of kick off a lot of the, you know Q4 Q1 research or putting on the database spark. It is just like kind of, we did, you know we did today, which obviously, you know we're really going to expand on tomorrow at a at 2:00 PM is discuss all the different KPIs. You know, we track something like 20 plus database services. So we're going to be going through a lot more than just kind of Redshift and BigQuery. Look at all the dynamics there, look at, you know how they're very against some of the third party vendors like the Snowflake, like a Mongo DB, as an example we got some really great, you know, thought leaders you know, Michael Delzer and Praveen from verizon they're going to kind of help, or they're going to opine on all the dynamics that we're seeing. And so it's going to be a very kind of, you know structured wise, it's going to be very quantitative but then you're going to have this beautiful qualitative discussion to kind of help support a lot of the data points that we're capturing. And so, yeah, we're really excited about the panel you know, from, you know, why you should join standpoint. Look, it's just, it's great, competitive Intel. If you're a third party, you know, database, data warehousing vendor, this is the type of information that you're going to want to know, you know, adoption rates market sizing, retention rates, you know net price reservers, on demand dynamics. You know, we're going through a lot that tomorrow. So I'm really excited about that. I'm just in general, really excited about a lot of the research that we're kind of putting out. So >> That's interesting. I mean, and we were talking earlier about AWS glue elastic views. I'd love to see your view of all the database services from Amazon. Cause that's where it's really designed to do is leverage those across those. And you know, you listen to Andrew, Jesse talk they've got a completely different philosophy than say Oracle, which says, Hey we've got one database to do all things Amazon saying we need that fine granularity. So it's going to be again. And to the extent that you're providing market context they're very excited to see that data Sagar and see how that evolves over time. Really appreciate you coming back in the cube and look forward to working with you. >> Appreciate Dave. Thank you so much. >> All right. Welcome. Thank you everybody for watching. This is Dave Vellante for the cube. We'll see you next time. (upbeat music)

>>from around the >>globe. It's the Cube with digital coverage of AWS reinvent 2020. Special coverage sponsored by AWS Worldwide Public sector. >>Right. Hello and welcome to the Cube. Virtual our coverage of aws reinvent 2020 with special coverage of the public sector experience. This is the day when we go through all the great conversations around public sector in context to reinvent great guest will for Justin, head of A W s ai and machine learning enablement and partnership with AWS Wilfred. Thanks for joining us. >>Thanks, John. Thanks for having me on. I'm pretty excited to be part of this cube interview. >>Well, I wish we could be in person, but with the pandemic, we gotta do the remote. But I want to get into some of the things you're working on. The A I m l Rapid Adoption Assistance Initiative eyes a big story. What is? What is it described what it is. >>So we launched this artificial intelligence slash machine learning rapid adoption assistance for all public sector partners who are part of the AP in network in September 2020. Onda. We launched this in response to the president's Executive water called the American Year Initiative. So the rapid adoption assistant what it provides us. It provides a direct scalable on automated mechanism for all the public sector partners to reach out to AWS experts within our team for assistance in building and deploying machine learning workloads on behalf of the agencies. So for all all the partners who are part off, this rapid adoption assistance will go through a journey with AWS with my team and they will go through three different faces. The first face will be the envisioning face. The second phase would be the enablement face on the third would be the bill face, as you know, in the envisioning face will dive deeply The use case, the problem that they're trying to solve. This is where we will talk about the algorithms and framework on. We will solidify the architecture er on validate the architecture er on following that will be an enablement face where we engage with the partners trained their technical team, meaning that it will be a hands on approach hands on on keyboard kind of approach where we trained them on machine learning stack On the third phase would be the bill face on the partners leverage the knowledge that they have gained through the enablement and envisioning face, and they start building on rolling out workloads on behalf of the agencies. So we will stay with them throughout the journey on We will doom or any kind of blockers be technical or business, so that's a quick overview off a more rapid adoption assistance program. >>It's funny talking to Swami over the years and watching every year at reinvent the A I. M L Portfolio. Dr Matt Wood is always doing something new. This year is no exception. Even Mawr Machine Learning and AI in the In the News on this rapid adoption assistant initiative sounds like it's an accelerant. Um, so I get all that, But I want to ask you, what problem does it solve for the customer? Or Amazon is because there's demand. There's too much demand. People wanna go faster. What problem does this initiative this rapid adoption of a I machine learning initiative solved? >>So as you know, John, artificial intelligence and related technologies like deep learning and machine learning can literally transform the way agencies operate. They can enable them to provide better services, quicker services and more secure services to the citizens of this country. And that's the reason the president released an executive water called American Initiative on it drives all the government agencies, specifically federal agencies, to promote artificial intelligence to protect and improve the security and economy of the nation. So if you think about it, the best way to achieve the goal is to enable the partners toe build workloads on behalf of agencies, because when it comes to public sector, most of the workloads are delivered by partners. So the problem that we face based on our interaction with the partners is that though the partners have been building a lot off applications with AWS for more than a decade, when it comes to artificial intelligence, they have very limited resources when it comes to deep learning and machine learning, right, like speech recognition, cognitive computing, national language frosting. So we wanted exactly address that. And that's the problem you're trying to solve by launching this rapid adoption assistance, which is nothing but a dry direct mechanism for partners to reach our creative, these experts to help them to build those kind of solutions for the government. >>You know, it's interesting because AI and machine learning it's a secret sauce for workload, especially modern workloads. You mentioned agencies and also public sector. You know, we've seen Certainly there's been pandemic a ton of focus on moving faster, right? So getting those APS out quickly ai drives a lot of that, so totally get it. Um, I think it's an accelerant great program. It just makes a lot of sense. And I know you guys have been going in tow by vertical and kind of having stage making all these other tools kind of be specialized within those verticals. So it makes a ton of sense. I get it, and it is a great, great initiative and solve the problem. The question I have is who gets access to this, right? Is it just agencies you mentioned? Is it all public sector? Could you just clarify who can apply to this program? >>Yes, it is a partner focused program. So all the existing partners, though it is going to affect the end agencies, were trying to help the agency's through the partners. So all the existing AP in partners who are part of the PSP program, we call it the public sector partner program can apply for this rapid adoption assistance. So you have been following John, you have been following AWS and AWS partners on a lot of partners have different kind of expertise on they. They show that by achieving a lot of competencies, right, it could be technical competencies like big data storage and security. Or it could be domain specific competencies like public safety education on government competency. But for a playing this program, the partners don't need to have any kind of competency, and all they have to have is they have to be part of the Amazon Partner Network on they have to be part of the public sector partner program. That is number one Second. It is open toe all partners, meaning that it is open toe. Both technology partners, as well as consulting partners Number three are playing is pretty simple, John, right? You can quickly search for a I M or rapid adoption assistance on a little pop up a page on a P network, the partners have to go on Phil pretty basic information about the workload, the problem that they're trying to solve the machine learning services that they're planning to use on a couple of other information, like contact information, and then our team reaches out to the partner on help them with the journey. >>So real. No other requirements are prerequisites. Just part of the partner program. >>Absolutely. It is meant for partners. And all you have to do is you have to be a part off 18 network, and you have to be a public sector apartment. >>Public sector partner makes sense. I mean, how you're gonna handle the demand. I'm sure the it's gonna be a tsunami of interest, because, I mean, why wouldn't someone take advantage of this? >>Yep. It is open to all kinds of partners because they have some kind of prerequisites, right? So that's what I'm trying to explain. It is open to all partners, but we have since it is open to existing partners, we kind of expect the partners toe understand the best practices off deploying a machine, learning workloads, or for that case, any kind of workload which should be scalable, land secure and resilient. So we're not going to touch? Yeah, >>Well, I wanna ask you what's what's the response been on this launch? Because, you know, I mean to me, it just makes it's just common sense. Why wouldn't someone take advantage of it? E. Whether responses partner or you have domain expertise or in a vertical just makes a lot of sense. You get access to the experts. >>The response has been great. As I said, the once you apply the journey takes six weeks, but already we just launched it. Probably close toe. Two months back in September 2nd week of September, it is almost, uh, almost two months, and we have more than 15 partners as part of this program on dykan name couple of partners say, for example, we worked with delight on We Are. We will be working on number of work clothes for the Indy agencies through delight. And there are other couple of number of other partners were making significant progress using this rapid adoption assistance that includes after associates attained ardent emcee on infinitive. So to answer your question, the response has been great so far. >>So what's the I So I gotta ask, you know, one of things I thought that Teresa Carlson about all the time in Sandy Carter is, you know, trying to get the accelerant get whether it's Fed ramp and getting certifications. I mean, you guys have done a great job of getting partners on board. Is there any kind of paperwork? What's the process? What should a partner expect to take advantage of that? I'm sure they'll be interest beyond just the launch. What's what's involved? What zit Web bases it check a form? Is that a lot of hoops to jump through? Explain what? What? The process >>is. Very interesting question. And it probably is a very important question from a part of perspective, right? So since it is offered for a peon partners, absolutely, they should have already gone through the AP in terms and conditions they should have. Already, a customer agreement or advanced partners might have enterprise agreement. So for utilizing this for leveraging this rapid adoption assistance program, absolutely. There's no paperwork involved. All they have to do is log into the Web form, fill up the basic information. It comes to us way, take it from there. So there is no hard requirements as long as you're part of the AP network. And as long as you're part of the PSP program, >>well, for great insight, congratulations on a great program. I think it's gonna be a smash hit. Who wouldn't wanna take? I know you guys a lot of goodness there with Amazon Cloud higher level services with a I machine learning people could bring it into the table. I know from a cybersecurity standpoint to just education the range of, um, workloads is gonna be phenomenal. Obviously military as well. Eso totally cool. Love it. Congratulations. Like my final question is, um, one about the partner. So I'm a partner. I like this. Say I'm a partner. I jump in Easy to get in. Walk me through What happens? I mean, I signed some paperwork. You check the boxes, I get involved, I get, like, a rep. Do I do things? Do I? What happens to me? Walk me down the path of execution. What's expectation of what will happen? >>I'll explain that in two parts, John. Right? One is from a partner journey perspective and then from AWS perspective. What? What we expect out off partners, right? So, from a experience perspective, as long as they fill out, fill out the web form on, fill out the basic information about the project that they're trying to work. It comes to us. The workflow is automated. All the information is captured on the information comes to my team on. We get back to the partners within three days, but the journey itself can take from 6 to 8 weeks because, as I mentioned during the envisioning case, we try to map the problem to the solution. But the enablement phases the second phase is where it can take anywhere from 2 to 3 weeks because, as I mentioned, we focused on the three layers of the machine learning stack for certain kind of partners. They might be interested in sage maker because they might want to build a custom machine learning model. But for some of the partners, they want the argument that existing applications using S. R or NLP or nL you so we can focus on the high level services. Or we can train them on stage makers so it can take anywhere between 2 to 3 weeks or 3 to 4 weeks. And finally, the build phase varies from partner to partner on the complexity of the work. Lord at that point were still involved with a partner, but the partner will be taking the lead on will be with them to remove any kid of Glaucus being technical or, uh, business couple of Yeah, well, I just >>want to say the word enablement in your title kind of speaks volumes. This isn't about enabling customers. >>It is all about enabling the in customers through partners. So we focus on enabling partners. They could be business big system integrators like Lockheed's or Raytheon's or Delight. Or it could be nimble in small partners. Or it could be a technology partner building an entire pass or SAS service on behalf of the government agencies. Right or that could help the comment agencies in different verticals. So we just enabled the in the agency's through the partners. And the focus of this program is all about partner enablement. >>Well, for just ahead of a does a i machine learning enablement in partnership, part of public sector with a W. S. This is our special coverage. Well, for thanks for coming on being a cube virtual guest. I wish we could be in person, but this year it's remote. This is the cube virtual. I'm John for a year. Host of the Cube. Thanks for watching. >>Thanks a lot, John.

(upbeat music) >> Announcer: From the cube Studios in Palo Alto and Boston, it's the cube! Covering IBM Think. Brought to you by IBM. >> Hi everybody, this is Dave Vellante of theCUBE, and you're watching our coverage of the IBM digital event experience. A multi-day program, tons of content, and it's our pleasure to be able to bring in experts, practitioners, customers, and partners. Sriram Raghavan is here. He's the Vice President of IBM Research in AI. Sriram, thanks so much for coming on thecUBE. >> Thank you, pleasure to be here. >> I love this title, I love the role. It's great work if you're qualified for it.(laughs) So, tell us a little bit about your role and your background. You came out of Stanford, you had the pleasure, I'm sure, of hanging out in South San Jose at the Almaden labs. Beautiful place to create. But give us a little background. >> Absolutely, yeah. So, let me start, maybe go backwards in time. What do I do now? My role's responsible for AI strategy, planning, and execution in IBM Research across our global footprint, all our labs worldwide and their working area. I also work closely with the commercial parts. The parts of IBM, our Software and Services business that take the innovation, AI innovation, from IBM Research to market. That's the second part of what I do. And where did I begin life in IBM? As you said, I began life at our Almaden Research Center up in San Jose, up in the hills. Beautiful, I had in a view. I still think it's the best view I had. I spent many years there doing work at the intersection of AI and large-scale data management, NLP. Went back to India, I was running the India lab there for a few years, and now I'm back here in New York running AI strategy. >> That's awesome. Let's talk a little bit about AI, the landscape of AI. IBM has always made it clear that you're not doing consumer AI. You're really tying to help businesses. But how do you look at the landscape? >> So, it's a great question. It's one of those things that, you know, we constantly measure ourselves and our partners tell us. I think we, you've probably heard us talk about the cloud journey . But look barely 20% of the workloads are in the cloud, 80% still waiting. AI, at that number is even less. But, of course, it varies. Depending on who you ask, you would say AI adoption is anywhere from 4% to 30% depending on who you ask in this case. But I think it's more important to look at where is this, directionally? And it's very, very clear. Adoption is rising. The value is more, it's getting better appreciated. But I think more important, I think is, there is broader recognition, awareness and investment, knowing that to get value out of AI, you start with where AI begins, which is data. So, the story around having a solid enterprise information architecture as the base on which to drive AI, is starting to happen. So, as the investments in data platform, becoming making your data ready for AI, starts to come through. We're definitely seeing that adoption. And I think, you know, the second imperative that businesses look for obviously is the skills. The tools and the skills to scale AI. It can't take me months and months and hours to go build an AI model, I got to accelerate it, and then comes operationalizing. But this is happening, and the upward trajectory is very, very clear. >> We've been talking a lot on theCUBE over the last couple of years, it's not the innovation engine of our industry is no longer Moore's Law, it's a combination of data. You just talked about data. Applying machine technology to that data, being able to scale it, across clouds, on-prem, wherever the data lives. So. >> Right. >> Having said that, you know, you've had a journey. You know, you started out kind of playing "Jeopardy!", if you will. It was a very narrow use case, and you're expanding that use case. I wonder if you could talk about that journey, specifically in the context of your vision. >> Yeah. So, let me step back and say for IBM Research AI, when I think about how we, what's our strategy and vision, we think of it as in two parts. One part is the evolution of the science and techniques behind AI. And you said it, right? From narrow, bespoke AI that all it can do is this one thing that it's really trained for, it takes a large amount of data, a lot of computing power. Two, how do you have the techniques and the innovation for AI to learn from one use case to the other? Be less data hungry, less resource hungry. Be more trustworthy and explainable. So, we call that the journey from narrow to broad AI. And one part of our strategy, as scientists and technologists, is the innovation to make that happen. So that's sort of one part. But, as you said, as people involved in making AI work in the enterprise, and IBM Research AI vision would be incomplete without the second part, which is, what are the challenges in scaling and operationalizing AI? It isn't sufficient that I can tell you AI can do this, how do I make AI do this so that you get the right ROI, the investment relative to the return makes sense and you can scale and operationalize. So, we took both of these imperatives. The AI narrow-to-broad journey, and the need to scale and operationalize. And what of the things that are making it hard? The things that make scaling and operationalizing harder: data challenges, we talked about that, skills challenges, and the fact that in enterprises, you have to govern and manage AI. And we took that together and we think of our AI agenda in three pieces: Advancing, trusting, and scaling AI. Advancing is the piece of pushing the boundary, making AI narrow to broad. Trusting is building AI which is trustworthy, is explainable, you can control and understand its behavior, make sense of it and all of the technology that goes with it. And scaling AI is when we address the problem of, how do I, you know, reduce the time and cost for data prep? How do I reduce the time for model tweaking and engineering? How do I make sure that a model that you build today, when something changes in the data, I can quickly allow for you to close the loop and improve the model? All of the things, think of day-two operations of AI. All of that is part of our scaling AI strategy. So advancing, trusting, scaling is sort of the three big mantras around which the way we think about our AI. >> Yeah, so I've been doing a little work in this around this notion of DataOps. Essentially, you know, DevOps applied to the data and the data pipeline, and I had a great conversation recently with Inderpal Bhandari, IBM's Global Chief Data Officer, and he explained to me how, first of all, customers will tell you, it's very hard to operationalize AIs. He and his team took that challenge on themselves and have had some great success. And, you know, we all know the problem. It's that, you know AI has to wait for the data. It has to wait for the data to be cleansed and wrangled. Can AI actually help with that part of the problem, compressing that? >> 100%. In fact, the way we think of the automation and scaling story is what we call the "AI For AI" story. So, AI in service of helping you build the AI that helps you make this with speed, right? So, and I think of it really in three parts. It's AI for data automation, our DataOps. AI used in better discovery, better cleansing, better configuration, faster linking, quality assessment, all of that. Using AI to do all of those data problems that you had to do. And I called it AI for data automation. The second part is using AI to automatically figure out the best model. And that's AI for data science automation, which is, feature engineering, hyperparameter optimization, having them all do work, why should a data scientist take weeks and months experimenting? If the AI can accelerate that from weeks to a matter of hours? That's data science automation. And then comes the important part, also, which is operations automation. Okay, I've put a data model into an application. How do I monitor its behavior? If the data that it's seeing is different from the data it was trained on, how do I quickly detect it? And a lot of the work from Research that was part of that Watson OpenScale offering is really addressing the operational side. So AI for data, AI for data science automation, and AI to help automate production of AI, is the way we break that problem up. >> So, I always like to ask folks that are deep into R&D, how they are ultimately are translating into commercial products and offerings? Because ultimately, you got to make money to fund more R&D. So, can you talk a little bit about how you do that, what your focus is there? >> Yeah, so that's a great question, and I'm going to use a few examples as well. But let me say at the outset, this is a very, very closed partnership. So when we, the Research part of AI and our portfolio, it's a closed partnership where we're constantly both drawing problem as well as building technology that goes into the offering. So, a lot of our work, much of our work in AI automation that we were talking about, is part of our Watson Studio, Watson Machine Learning, Watson OpenScale. In fact, OpenScale came out of Research working Trusted AI, and is now a centerpiece of our Watson project. Let me give a very different example. We have a very, very strong portfolio and focus in NLP, Natural Language Processing. And this directly goes into capabilities out of Watson Assistant, which is our system for conversational support and customer support, and Watson Discovery, which is about making enterprise understand unstructurally. And a great example of that is the Working Project Debater that you might have heard, which is a grand challenge in Research about building a machine that can do debate. Now, look, we weren't looking to go sell you a debating machine. But what did we build as part of doing that, is advances in NLP that are all making their way into assistant and discovery. And we actually just talked about earlier this year, announced a set of capabilities around better clustering, advanced summarization, deeper sentiment analysis. These made their way into Assistant and Discovery but are born out of research innovation and solving a grand problem like building a debating machine. That's just an example of how that journey from research to product happens. >> Yeah, the Debater documentary, I've seen some of that. It's actually quite astounding. I don't know what you're doing there. It sounds like you're taking natural language and turning it into complex queries with data science and AI, but it's quite amazing. >> Yes, and I would encourage you, you will see that documentary, by the way, on Channel 7, in the Think Event. And I would encourage you, actually the documentary around how Debater happened, sort of featuring back of the you know, backdoor interviews with the scientist who created it was actually featured last minute at Copenhagen International Documentary Festival. I'll invite viewers to go to Channel 7 and Data and AI Tech On-Demand to go take a look at that documentary. >> Yeah, you should take a look at it. It's actually quite astounding and amazing. Sriram, what are you working on these days? What kind of exciting projects or what's your focus area today? >> Look, I think there are three imperatives that we're really focused on, and one is very, you know, just really the project you're talking about, NLP. NLP in the enterprise, look, text is a language of business, right? Text is the way business is communicated. Within each other, with their partners, with the entire world. So, helping machines understand language, but in an enterprise context, recognizing that data and the enterprises live in complex documents, unstructured documents, in e-mail, they live in conversations with the customers. So, really pushing the boundary on how all our customers and clients can make sense of this vast volume of unstructured data by pushing the advances of NLP, that's one focus area. Second focus area, we talked about trust and how important that is. And we've done amazing work in monitoring and explainability. And we're really focused now on this emerging area of causality. Using causality to explain, right? The model makes this because the model believes this is what it wants, it's a beautiful way. And the third big focus continues to be on automation. So, NLP, trust, automation. Those are, like, three big focus areas for us. >> sriram, how far do you think we can take AI? I know it's a topic of conversation, but from your perspective, deep into the research, how far can it go? And maybe how far should it go? >> Look, I think we are, let me answer it this way. I think the arc of the possible is enormous. But I think we are at this inflection point in which I think the next wave of AI, the AI that's going to help us this narrow-to-broad journey we talked about, look, the narrow-to-broad journey's not like a one-week, one-year. We're talking about a decade of innovation. But I think we are at a point where we're going to see a wave of AI that we like to call "neuro-symbolic AI," which is AI that brings together two sort of fundamentally different approaches to building intelligence systems. One approach of building intelligence system is what we call "knowledge driven." Understand data, understand concept, logically, reasonable. We human beings do that. That was really the way AI was born. The more recent last couple of decades of AI was data driven, Machine learning. Give me vast volumes of data, I'll use neural techniques, deep learning, to to get value. We're at a point where we're going to bring both of them together. Cause you can't build trustworthy, explainable systems using only one, you can't get away from not using all of the data that you have to make them. So, neuro-symbolic AI is, I think, going to be the linchpin of how we advance AI and make it more powerful and trustworthy. >> So, are you, like, living your childhood dream here or what? >> Look, for me I'm fascinated. I've always been fascinated. And any time you can't find a technology person who hasn't dreamt of building an intelligent machine. To have a job where I can work across our worldwide set of 3,000 plus researchers and think and brainstorm on strategy with AI. And then, most importantly, not to forget, right? That you talked about being able to move it into our portfolios so it actually makes a difference for our clients. I think it's a dream job and a whole lot of fun. >> Well, Sriram, it was great having you on theCUBE. A lot of fun, interviewing folks like you. I feel a little bit smarter just talking to you. So thanks so much for coming on. >> Fantastic. It's been a pleasure to be here. >> And thank you for watching, everybody. You're watching theCUBE's coverage of IBM Think 2020. This is Dave Vellante. We'll be right back right after this short break. (upbeat music)

>>Live from Orlando, Florida. It's the cube covering Microsoft ignite brought to you by Cohesity. >>Good afternoon everyone and welcome back to the cubes live coverage of Microsoft ignite 26,000 people here at this conference at the orange County convention center. I'm your host, Rebecca Knight, alongside my cohost Stu Miniman. We are joined by Seth Juarez. He is the cloud developer advocate at Microsoft. Thank you so much for coming on the show. >>Glad to be here. You have such a lovely sad and you're lovely people. We just met up. You don't know any better? No. Well maybe after after the end of the 15 minutes we'll have another discussion. >>You're starting off on the right foot, so tell us a little bit about what you do. You're also a host on channel nine tell us about your role as a, as a cloud developer. >>So a cloud advocate's job is primarily to help developers be successful on Azure. My particular expertise lies in AI and machine learning and so my job is to help developers be successful with AI in the cloud, whether it be developers, data scientists, machine learning engineers or whatever it is that people call it nowadays. Because you know how the titles change a lot, but my job is to help them be successful and sometimes what's interesting is that sometimes our customers can't find success in the cloud. That's actually a win for me too because then I have a deep integration with the product group and my job is to help them understand from a customer perspective what it is they need and why. So I'm like the ombudsman so to speak because the product groups are the product groups. I don't report up to them. So I usually go in there and I'm like, Hey, I don't report to any of you, but this is what the customers are saying. >>We are very keen on being customer centered and that's why I do what I do. >> Seth, I have to imagine when you're dealing with customers, some of that skills gap and learning is something that they need to deal with. You know, we've been hearing for a long time, you know, there's not enough data scientists, you know, we need to learn these environments. Satya Nadella spent a lot of time talking about the citizen developers out there. So you know H bring us inside the customers you're talking to, you know, kind of, where do you usually start and you know, how do they pull the right people in there or are they bringing in outside people a little bit? Great organization, great question. It turns out that for us at Microsoft we have our product groups and then right outside we have our advocates that are very closely aligned to the product groups. >>And so anytime we do have an interaction with a customer, it's for the benefit of all the other customers. And so I meet with a lot of customers and I don't, I'm to get to talk about them too much. But the thing is I go in there, I see what they're doing. For example, one time I went to the touring Institute in the UK. I went in there and because I'm not there to sell, I'm there to figure out like what are you trying to do and does this actually match up? It's a very different kind of conversation and they'd tell me about what they're working on. I tell them about how we can help them and then they tell me where the gaps are or where they're very excited and I take both of those pieces of feedback to the, to the product group and they, they just love being able to have someone on the ground to talk to people because sometimes you know, when work on stuff you get a little siloed and it's good to have an ombudsman so to speak, to make sure that we're doing the right thing for our customers. >>As somebody that works on AI. You must've been geeking out working, working with the Turing Institute though. Oh yeah. Those people are absolutely wonderful and it was like as I was walking in, a little giddy, but the problems that they're facing in AI are very similar. The problems that people at the other people doing and that are in big organizations, other organizations are trying to onboard to AI and try to figure out, everyone says I need to be using this hammer and they're trying to hammer some screws in with the hammer. So it's good to figure out when it's appropriate to use AI and when it isn't. And I also have customers with that >>and I'm sure the answer is it depends in terms of when it's appropriate, but do you have any sort of broad brush advice for helping an organization determine is is this a job for AI? Absolutely. >>That's uh, it's a question I get often and developers, we have this thing called the smell that tells us if a code smell, we have a code smell tells us, maybe we should refactor, maybe we should. For me, there's this AI smell where if you can't precisely figure out the series of steps to execute an algorithm and you're having a hard time writing code, or for example, if every week you need to change your if L statements or if you're changing numbers from 0.5 to 0.7 and now it works, that's the smell that you should think about using AI or machine learning, right? There's also a set of a class of algorithms that, for example, AI, it's not that we've solved, solved them, but they're pretty much solved. Like for example, detecting what's in an image, understanding sentiment and text, right? Those kinds of problems we have solutions for that are just done. >>But if you have a code smell where you have a lot of data and you don't want to write an algorithm to solve that problem, machine learning and AI might be the solution. Alright, a lot of announcements this week. Uh, any of the highlights for from your area. We last year, AI was mentioned specifically many times now with you know, autonomous systems and you know it feels like AI is in there not necessarily just you know, rubbing AI on everything. >> I think it's because we have such a good solution for people building custom machine learning that now it's time to talk about the things you can do with it. So we're talking about autonomous systems. It's because it's based upon the foundation of the AI that we've already built. We released something called Azure machine learning, a set of tools called in a studio where you can do end and machine learning. >>Because what what's happening is most data scientists nowadays, and I'm guilty of this myself, we put stuff in things called Jupiter notebooks. We release models, we email them to each other, we're emailing Python files and that's kinda like how programming was in 1995 and now we're doing is we're building a set of tools to allow machine learning developers to go end to end, be able to see how data scientists are working and et cetera. For example, let's just say you're a data scientist. Bill. Did an awesome job, but then he goes somewhere else and Sally who was absolutely amazing, comes in and now she's the data scientist. Usually Sally starts from zero and all of the stuff that bill did is lost with Azure machine learning. You're able to see all of your experiments, see what bill tried, see what he learned and Sally can pick right up and go on. And that's just doing the experiments. Now if you want to get machine learning models into production, we also have the ability to take these models, version them, put them into a CIC, D similar process with Azure dev ops and machine learning. So you can go from data all the way to machine learning in production very easily, very quickly and in a team environment, you know? And that's what I'm excited about mostly. >>So at a time when AI and big and technology companies in general are under fire and not, Oh considered to not always have their users best interests at heart. I'd like you to talk about the Microsoft approach to ethical AI and responsible AI. >>Yeah, I was a part of the keynote. Scott Hanselman is a very famous dab and he did a keynote and I got to form part of it and one of the things that we're very careful even on a dumb demo or where he was like doing rock paper, scissors. I said, and Scott, we were watching you with your permission to see like what sequence of throws you were doing. We believe that through and through all the way we will never use our customers' data to enhance any of our models. In fact, there was a time when we were doing like a machine learning model for NLP and I saw the email thread and it's like we don't have language food. I don't remember what it was. We don't have enough language food. Let's pay some people to ethically source this particular language data. We will never use any of our customer's data and I've had this question asked a lot. >>Like for example, our cognitive services which have built in AI, we will never use any of our customer's data to build that neither. For example, if we have, for example, we have a custom vision where you upload your own pictures, those are your pictures. We're never going to use them for anything. And anything that we do, there's always consent and we want to make sure that everyone understands that AI is a powerful tool, but it also needs to be used ethically. And that's just on how we use data for people that are our customers. We also have tools inside of Azure machine learning to get them to use AI. Ethically. We have tools to explain models. So for example, if you very gender does the model changes prediction or if you've very class or race, is your model being a little iffy? We allow, we have those tools and Azure machine learning, so our customers can also be ethical with the AI they build on our platform. So we have ethics built into how we build our models and we have ethics build into how our customers can build their models too, which is to me very. >>And is that a selling point? Are customers gravitating? I mean we've talked a lot about it on the show. About the, the trust that customers have in Microsoft and the image that Microsoft has in the industry right now. But the idea that it is also trying to perpetuate this idea of making everyone else more ethical. Do you think that that is one of the reasons customers are gravitate? >>I hope so. And as far as a selling point, I absolutely think it's a selling point, but we've just released it and so I'm going to go out there and evangelize the fact that not only are we as tickle with what we do in AI, but we want our customers to be ethical as well. Because you know, trust pays, as Satya said in his keynote, tra trust the enhancer in the exponent that allows tech intensity to actually be tech intensity. And we believe that through and through not only do believe it for ourselves, but we want our customers to also believe it and see the benefits of having trust with our customers. One of the things we, we talked to Scott Hanselman a little bit yesterday about that demo is the Microsoft of today isn't just use all the Microsoft products, right? To allow you to use, you know, any tool, any platform, you know, your own environment, uh, to tell us how that, that, that plays into your world. >>It's, you know, like in my opinion, and I don't know if it's the official opinion, but we are in the business of renting computer cycles. We don't care how you use them, just come into our house and use them. You wanna use Java. We've recently announced a tons of things with spraying. We're become an open JDK contributor. You know, one of my colleagues, we're very hard on that. I work primarily in Python because it's machine learning. I have a friend might call a friend and colleague, David Smith who works in our, I have other colleagues that work in a number of different languages. We don't care. What we are doing is we're trying to empower every organization and every person on the planet to achieve more where they are, how they are, and hopefully bring a little bit of of it to our cloud. >>What are you doing that, that's really exciting to you right now? I know you're doing a new.net library. Any other projects that are sparking your end? >>Yeah, so next week I'm going to France and this is before anyone's going to see this and there is a, there is a company, I think it's called surf, I'll have to look it up and we'll put it in the notes, but they are basically trying to use AI to be more environmentally conscious and they're taking pictures of trash and rivers and they're using AI to figure out where it's coming from so they can clean up environment. I get to go over there and see what they're doing, see how I can help them improvement and promote this kind of ethical way of doing AI. We also do stuff with snow leopards. I was watching some Netflix thing with my kids and we were watching snow leopards and there was like two of them. Like this is impressive because as I'm watching this with my kids, I'm like, Hey we are at Microsoft, we're helping this population, you know, perpetuate with AI. >>And so those are the things it's actually a had had I've seen on TV is, you know, rather than spending thousands of hours of people out there, the AI can identify the shape, um, you know, through the cameras. So they're on a, I love that powerful story to explain some of those pieces as opposed to it. It's tough to get the nuance of what's happening here. Absolutely. With this technology, these models are incredibly easy to build on our platform. And, and I and I st fairly easy to build with what you have. We love people use TensorFlow, use TensorFlow, people use pie torch. That's great cafe on it. Whatever you want to use. We are happy to let you use a rent out our computer cycles because we want you to be successful. Maybe speak a little bit of that when you talk about, you know, the, the cloud, one of the things is to democratize, uh, availability of this. >>There's usually free tiers out there, especially in the emerging areas. Uh, you know, how, how is Microsoft helping to get that, that compute and that world technology to people that might not have had it in the past? I was in, I was in Peru a number of years ago and I and I had a discussion with someone on the channel nine show and it was absolutely imp. Like I under suddenly understood the value of this. He said, Seth, if I wanted to do a startup here in Peru, right, and it was a capital Peru, like a very industrialized city, I would have to buy a server. It would come from California on a boat. It would take a couple of months to get here and then it would be in a warehouse for another month as it goes through customs. And then I would have to put it into a building that has a C and then I could start now sat with a click of a button. >>I can provision an entire cluster of machines on Azure and start right now. That's what, that's what the cloud is doing in places like Peru and places that maybe don't have a lot of infrastructure. Now infrastructure is for everyone and maybe someone even in the United States, you know, in a rural area that doesn't, they can start up their own business right now anywhere. And it's not just because it's Peru, it's not just because it's some other place that's becoming industrialized. It's everywhere. Because any kid with a dream can spin up an app service and have a website done in like five minutes. >>So what does this mean? I mean, as you said, any, any kid, any person or rural area, any developing country, what does this mean in five or 10 years from now in terms of the future of commerce and work and business? >>Honestly, some people feel like computers are art, stealing, you know, human engineering. I think they are really augmenting it. Like for example, I don't have to, if I want to know something for her. Back when, when I was a kid, I had to, if I want to know something, sometimes I had to go without knowing where like I guess we'll never know. Right? And then five years later we're like, okay, we found out it was that a character on that show, you know? And now we just look at our phone. It's like, Oh, you were wrong. And I like not knowing that I'm wrong for a lot longer, you know what I'm saying? But nowadays with our, with our phones and with other devices, we have information readily available so that we can make appropriate response, appropriate answers to questions that we have. AI is going to help us with that by augmenting human ingenuity, by looking at the underlying structure. >>We can't, for example, if you look at, if you look at an Excel spreadsheet, if it's like five rows and maybe five columns, you and I as humans can look at and see a trend. But what if it's 10 million rows and 5,000 columns? Our ingenuity has been stretched too far, but with computers now we can aggregate, we can do some machine learning models, and then we can see the patterns that the computer found aggregated, and now we can make the decisions we could make with five columns, five rows, but it's not taking our jobs. It's augmenting our capacity to do the right thing. >>Excellent. We'll assess that. Thank you so much for coming on the Cuba. Really fun conversation. >>Glad to be here. Thanks for having me. >>Alright, I'm Rebecca Knight for Stu minimun. Stay tuned for more of the cubes live coverage of Microsoft ignite.

>> Announcer: Live from Las Vegas, it's theCUBE. Covering Splunk.conf19, brought to you by Splunk. >> Okay, welcome back everyone. We are here inside for Splunk.conf, their 10th-year conference. We've been here seven years. I'm John Furrier, the host. Our next guest is Sherrie Caltagirone, founder and executive director of the Global Emancipation Network, a cutting-edge company and organization connecting different groups together to fight that battle combating human trafficking with the power of data analytics. We're in a digital world. Sherrie, thanks for coming in. >> Thank you so much for having me. >> So love your mission. This is really close to my heart in terms of what you're doing because with digital technologies, there's a unification theme here at Splunk, unifying data sets, you hear on the keynotes. You guys got a shout-out on the keynote, congratulations. >> Sherrie: We did, thank you. >> So unifying data can help fight cybersecurity, fight the bad guys, but also there's other areas where unification comes in. This is what you're doing. Take a minute to explain the Global Emancipation Network. >> Yeah, thank you. So what we do is we are a data analytics and intelligence nonprofit, dedicated to countering all forms of human trafficking, whether it's labor trafficking, sex trafficking, or any of the sub types, men, women, and children all over the world. So when you think about that, what that really means is that we interact with thousands of stakeholders across law enforcement, governments, nonprofits, academia, and then private sector as well. And all of those essentially act as data silos for human trafficking data. And when you think about that as trafficking as a data problem or you tackle it as a data problem, what that really means is that you have to have a technology and data-led solution in order to solve the problem. So that's really our mission here is to bring together all of those stakeholders, give them easy access to tools that can help improve their counter posture. >> And where are you guys based and how big is the organization? What's the status? Give a quick plug for where you guys are at and what the current focus is. >> Yeah, perfect, so I am based in San Luis Obispo, California. We have just started a brand new trafficking investigations hub out at Cal Poly there. They're a fantastic organization whose motto is learn by doing, and so we are taking the trafficking problem and the tangential other issues, so like we mentioned, cyber crime, wildlife trafficking, drugs trafficking, all of this sort of has a criminal convergence around it and applying technology, and particularly Splunk, to that. >> Yeah, and I just want to make a note 'cause I think it's important to mention. Cal Poly's doing some cutting-edge work. Alison Robinson, Bill Britton, who runs the program over there, they got a great organization. They're doing a lot of data-oriented from media analysis, data, big focus there. Cal Poly quite a big organization. >> They are, and they're doing some wonderful things. AWS just started an innovation hub called the DX Hub there that we are a part of, really trying to tackle these really meaty problems here that are very data-centric and technology-centric. And Cal Poly's the best place to do that. >> Great, let's get into some of the details. One of the things around the news, obviously seeing Mark Zuckerberg doing the tour, Capitol Hill, DC, Georgetown, free speech, data. Facebook has been kind of blamed for breaking democracy. At the same time, it's a platform. They don't consider themselves as an editorial outlet. My personal opinion, they are, but they hide behind that platform. So bad things have happened, good things can happen. So you're seeing technology kind of being pigeonholed as bad. Tech for bad, there's also a tech for good. Pat Gelsinger, the CEO of VMware, publicly said technology's neutral. We humans can shape it. So you guys are looking at it from shaping it for good. How are you doing it? What are some of the things that are going on technically from a business standpoint that is shaping and unifying the data? >> Yeah, I mean, it's absolutely certain that technology has facilitated human trafficking and other ills throughout the world. It's a way that people bring their product, in this case, sadly, human beings, to the market to reach buyers, right? And technology absolutely facilitates that. But, as you mentioned, we can use that against them. So actually here at Conf we are bringing together for a first time the partnership that we did with Splunk for Good, Accenture, and Global Emancipation Network to help automatically classify and score risky businesses, content, ads, and individuals there to help not only with mitigating risk and liability for the private sector, whether it's social media giants or if it's transportation, hospitality, you name it, but also help ease the burden of content moderators. And that's the other side of it. So when you live in this space day in and day out, you really exact a mental toll here. It's really damaging to the individual who sits and reads this material and views photos over and over again. So using technology is a way to automate some of those investigations, and the identification of that content could be helpful in a variety of ways. >> In a way, it's a whole other adversary formula to try to identify. One of the things that Splunk, as we've been here at Splunk Conference, they've been about data from day one. A lot of data and then grew from there, and they have this platform. It's a data problem, and so one of the things that we're seeing here is diverse data, getting at more data makes AI smarter, makes things smarter. But that's hard. Diverse data might be in different data sets or silos, different groups. Sharing data's important, so getting that diverse data, how difficult is it for you guys? Because the bad guys can hide. They're hiding in from Craigslist to social platforms. You name it, they're everywhere. How do you get the data? What's the cutting-edge ingestion? Where are the shadows? Where are the blind spots? How do you guys look at that? Because it's only getting bigger. >> Absolutely, so we do it through a variety of different ways. We absolutely see gathering and aggregating and machining data the most central thing to what we do at Global Emancipation Network. So we have a coalition, really, of organizations that we host their scrapers and crawlers on and we run it through our ingestion pipeline. And we are partnered with Microsoft and AWS to store that data, but everything goes through Splunk as well. So what is that data, really? It's data on the open web, it's on the deep web. We have partners as well who look at the dark web, too, so Recorded Future, who's here at Conf, DeepL as well. So there's lots of different things on that. Now, honestly, the data that's available on the internet is easy for us to get to. It's easy enough to create a scraper and crawler, to even create an authenticated scraper behind a paywall, right? The harder thing is those privately held data sets that are in all of those silos that are in a million different data formats with all kinds of different fields and whatnot. So that is where it's a little bit more of a manual lift. We're always looking at new technologies to machine PDFs and that sort of thing as well. >> One of the things that I love about this business we're on, the wave we're on, we're in a digital media business, is that we're in pursuit of the truth. Trust, truth is a big part of what we do. We talk to people, get the data. You guys are doing something really compelling. You're classifying evil. Okay, this is a topic of your talk track here. Classifying evil, combating human trafficking with the power of data analytics. This is actually super important. Could you share why, for people that aren't following inside the ropes of this problem, why is it such a big problem to classify evil? Why isn't it so easy to do? What's the big story? What should people know about this challenge? >> Yeah, well, human trafficking is actually the second-most profitable crime in the world. It's the fastest-growing crime. So our best estimates are that there's somewhere between 20 million and 45 million people currently enslaved around the world. That's a population the size of Spain. That's nothing that an individual, or even a small army of investigators can handle. And when you think about the content that each of those produce or the traffickers are producing in order to advertise the services of those, it's way beyond the ability of any one organization or even, like I said, an army of them, to manage. And so what we need to do then is to be able to find the signal in the noise here. And there is a lot of noise. Even if you're looking at sex trafficking, particularly, there's consensual sex work or there's other things that are a little bit more in that arena, but we want to find that that is actually engaging in human trafficking. The talk that you mentioned that we're doing is actually a fantastic use case. This is what we did with Splunk for Good and Accenture. We were actually looking at doing a deep dive into the illicit massage industry in the US, and there are likely over 10,000 illicit massage businesses in the US. And those businesses, massages and spas, that are actually just a front for being a brothel, essentially. And it generates $2 billion a year. We're talking about a major industry here, and in that is a very large component of human trafficking. There's a very clear pipeline between Korea, China, down to New York and then being placed there. So what we ended up needing to do then, and again, we were going across data silos here, looking at state-owned data, whether it was license applications, arrest filings, legal cases, that sort of thing, down into the textual advertisements, so doing NLP work with weighted lexicons and really assigning a risk score to individual massage businesses to massage therapist business owners and then, again, to that content. So looking, again, how can we create a classifier to identify evil? >> It's interesting, I think about when you're talking about this is a business. This is a business model, this business continuity. There's a supply chain. This is a bona fide, underground, or overt business process. >> Yeah, absolutely, and you're right on that too that it is actually overt because at this point, traffickers actually operate with impunity for the most part. So actually framing it that way, as a market economy, whether it's shadowy and a little bit more in the black market or completely out in the open, it really helps us frame our identification, how we can manage disruptions, who need to be the stakeholders at the table for us in order to have a wider impact rather than just whack-a-mole. >> I was just talking with Sonia, one of our producers, around inclusiveness and this is so obviously a human passion issue. Why don't we just solve it? I mean, why doesn't someone like the elite class or world organization, just Davos, and people just say they're staring at this problem. Why don't they just say, "Hey, this is evil. "Let's just get rid of it." What's the-- >> Well, we're working on it, John, but the good thing is, and you're absolutely right, that there are a number of organizations who are actually working on it. So not just us, there's some other amazing nonprofits. But the tech sector's actually starting to come to the table as well, whether it's Splunk, it's Microsoft, it's AWS, it's Intel, IBM, Accenture. People are really waking up to how damaging this actually is, the impact that it has on GDP, the way that we're particularly needing to protect vulnerable populations, LGBTQ youth, children in foster care, indigenous populations, refugees, conflict zones. So you're absolutely right. I think, given the right tools and technology, and the awareness that needs to happen on the global stage, we will be able to significantly shrink this problem. >> It's classic arbitrage. If I'm a bad guy, you take advantage of the systematic problems of what's in place, so the current situation. Sounds like siloed groups somewhat funded, not mega-funded. This group over here, disconnect between communications. So you guys are, from what I could tell, pulling everyone together to kind of create a control plane of data to share information to kind of get a more holistic view of everything. >> Yeah, that's exactly it. Trying to do it at scale, at that. So I mentioned that at first we were looking at the illicit massage sector. We're moving over to the social media to look again at the recruitment side and content. And the financial sector is really the common thread that runs through all of it. So being able to identify, taking it back to a general use case here from cyber security, just indicators as well, indicators of compromise, but in our case, these are just words and lexicons, dollar values, things like that, down to behavioral analytics and patterns of behavior, whether people are moving, operating as call centers, network-like behavior, things that are really indicative of trafficking. And making sure that all of those silos understand that, are sharing the data they can, that's not overly sensitive, and making sure that we work together. >> Sherrie, you mentioned AWS. Teresa Carlson, I know she's super passionate about this. She's a leader. Cal Poly, we mentioned that. Splunk, you mentioned, how is Splunk involved? Are they the core technology behind this? Are they powering the-- >> They are, yeah, Splunk was actually with us from day one. We sat at a meeting, actually, at Microsoft and we were really just white boarding. What does this look like? How can we bring Splunk to bear on this problem? And so Splunk for Good, we're part of their pledge, the $10 million pledge over 10 years, and it's been amazing. So after we ingest all of our data, no matter what the data source is, whatever it looks like, and we deal with the ugliest and most unstructured data ever, and Splunk is really the only tool that we looked at that was able to deal with that. So everything goes through Splunk. From there, we're doing a series of external API calls that can really help us enrich that data, add correlations, whether it's spatial data, network analysis, cryptocurrency analysis, public records look-ups, a variety of things. But Splunk is at the heart. >> So I got to ask you, honestly, as this new architecture comes into play for attacking this big problem that you guys are doing, as someone who's not involved in that area, I get wow, spooked out by that. I'm like, "Wow, this is really bad." How can people help? What can people do either in their daily lives, whether it's how they handle their data, observations, donations, involvement? How do people get involved? What do you guys see as some areas that could be collaborating with? What do you guys need? How do people get involved? >> Yeah, one that's big for me is I would love to be able to sit in an interview like this, or go about my daily life, and know that what I am wearing or the things that I'm interacting with, my phone, my computer, weren't built from the hands of slave labor. And at this point, I really can't. So one thing that everybody can do is demand of the people that they are purchasing from that they're doing so in a socially viable and responsible way. So looking at supply chain management as well, and auditing specifically for human trafficking. We have sort of the certified, fair-trade certified organic seals. We need something like that for human trafficking. And that's something that we, the people, can demand. >> I think you're on the right track with that. I see a big business model wave where consumer purchasing power can be shifted to people who make the investments in those areas. So I think it's a big opportunity. It's kind of a new e-commerce, data-driven, social-impact-oriented economy. >> Yep, and you can see more and more, investment firms are becoming more interested in making socially responsible investments. And we just heard Splunk announce their $100 million social innovation fund as well. And I'm sure that human trafficking is going to be part of that awareness. >> Well, I'll tell you one of the things that's inspirational to me personally is that you're starting to see power and money come into helping these causes. My friend, Scott Tierney, just started a venture capital firm called Valo Ventures in Palo Alto. And they're for-profit, social impact investors. So they see a business model shift where people are getting behind these new things. I think your work is awesome, thank you. >> Yeah, thank you so much, I appreciate it. >> Thanks for coming on. Congratulations on the shout-out on the keynote. Appreciate it. The Global Emancipation Network, check them out. They're in San Luis Obispo, California. Get involved. This is theCUBE with bringing you the signal from the noise here at .conf. I'm John Furrier, back with more after this short break. (upbeat music)