(upbeat music playing) >> Welcome to theCUBE's coverage of Couchbase ConnectONLINE Mary Roth, VP of Engineering Operations with Couchbase is here for Couchbase ConnectONLINE. Mary. Great to see you. Thanks for coming on remotely for this segment. >> Thank you very much. It's great to be here. >> Love the fire in the background, a little fireside chat here, kind of happening, but I want to get into it because, Engineering and Operations with the pandemic has really kind of shown that, engineers and developers have been good, working remotely for a while, but for the most part it's impacted companies in general, across the organizations. How did the Couchbase engineering team adapt to the remote work? >> Great question. And I actually think the Couchbase team responded very well to this new model of working imposed by the pandemic. And I have a unique perspective on the Couchbase journey. I joined in February, 2020 after 20 plus years at IBM, which had embraced a hybrid, in-office remote work model many years earlier. So in my IBM career, I live four minutes away from my research lab in Almaden Valley, but IBM is a global company with headquarters on the East Coast, and so throughout my career, I often found myself on phone calls with people around the globe at 5:00 AM in the morning, I quickly learned and quickly adapted to a hybrid model. I'd go into the office to collaborate and have in-person meetings when needed. But if I was on the phone at 5:00 AM in the morning, I didn't feel the need to get up at 4:30 AM to go in. I just worked from home and I discovered I could be more productive there, doing think time work, and I really only needed the in-person time for collaboration. This hybrid model allowed me to have a great career at IBM and raise my two daughters at the same time. So when I joined Couchbase, I joined a company that was all about being in-person and instead of a four minute commute, it was going to be an hour or more commute for me each way. This was going to be a really big transition for me, but I was excited enough by Couchbase and what it offered, that I decided to give it a try. Well, that was February, 2020. I showed up early in the morning on March 10th, 2020 for an early morning meeting in-person only to learn that I was one of the only few people that didn't get the memo. We were switching to a remote working model. And so over the last year, I have had the ability to watch Couchbase and other companies pivot to make this remote working model possible and not only possible, but effective. And I'm really happy to see the results. A remote work model does have its challenges, that's for sure, but it also has its benefits, better work-life balance and more time to interact with family members during the day and more quiet time just to think. We just did a retrospective on a major product release, Couchbase server 7.0, that we did over the past 18 months. And one of the major insights by the leadership team is that working from home actually made people more effective. I don't think a full remote model is the right approach going forward, but a hybrid model that IBM adopted many years ago and that I was able to participate in for most of my career, I believe is a healthier and more productive approach. >> Well, great story. I love the come back and now you take leverage of all the best practices from the IBM days, but how did they, your team and the Couchbase engineering team react? And were there any best practices or key learnings that you guys pulled out of that? >> The initial reaction was not good. I mean, as I mentioned, it was a culture based on in-person, people had to be in in-person meetings. So it took a while to get used to it, but there was a forcing function, right? We had to work remotely. That was the only option. And so people made it work. I think the advancement of virtual meeting technology really helps a lot. Over earlier days in my career where I had just bad phone connections, that was very difficult. But with the virtual meetings that you have, where you can actually see people and interact, I think is really quite helpful. And probably the key. >> What's the DNA of the company there? I mean, every company's got the DNA, Intel's Moore's Law, and what's the engineering culture at Couchbase like, if you could describe it. >> The engineering culture at Couchbase is very familiar to me. We are at our heart, a database company, and I grew up in the database world, which has a very unique culture based on two values, merit and mentorship. And we also focus on something that I like to call growing the next generation. Now database technology started in the late sixties, early seventies, with a few key players and institutions. These key players were extremely bright and they tackled and solved really hard problems with elegant solutions, long before anybody knew they were going to be necessary. Now, those original key players, people like Jim Gray, Bruce Lindsay, Don Chamberlin, Pat Selinger, David Dewitt, Michael Stonebraker. They just love solving hard problems. And they wanted to share that elegance with a new generation. And so they really focused on growing the next generation of leaders, which became the Mike Carey's and the Mohan's and the Lagerhaus's of the world. And that culture grew over multiple generations with the previous generation cultivating, challenging, and advocating for the next, I was really lucky to grow up in that culture. And I've advanced my career as a result, as being part of it. The reason I joined Couchbase is because I see that culture alive and well here. Our two fundamental values on the engineering side, are merit and mentorship. >> One of the things I want to get your thoughts on, on the database questions. I remember, back in the old glory days, you mentioned some of those luminaries, you know, there wasn't many database geeks out there, there was kind of a small community, now, as databases are everywhere. So you see, there's no one database that has rule in the world, but you starting to see a pattern of database, kinds of things are emerging, more databases than ever before, they are on the internet, they are on the cloud, there are none the edge. It's essentially, we're living in a large distributed computing environment. So now it's cool to be in databases because they're everywhere. (laughing) So, I mean, this is kind of where we are at. What's your reaction to that? >> You're absolutely right. There used to be a few small vendors and a few key technologies and it's grown over the years, but the fundamental problems are the same, data integrity, performance and scalability in the face of distributed systems. Those were all the hard problems that those key leaders solved back in the sixties and seventies. They're not new problems. They're still there. And they did a lot of the fundamental work that you can apply and reapply in different scenarios and situations. >> That's pretty exciting. I love that. I love the different architectures that are emerging and allows for more creativity for application developers. And this becomes like the key thing we're seeing right now, driving the business and a big conversation here at the, at the event is the powering of these modern applications that need low latency. There's no more, not many spinning disks anymore. It's all in RAM, all these kinds of different memory, you got centralization, you got all kinds of new constructs. How do you make sense of it all? How do you talk to customers? What's the main core thing happening right now? If you had to describe it. >> Yeah, it depends on the type of customer you're talking to. We have focused primarily on the enterprise market and in that market, there are really fundamental issues. Information for these enterprises is key. It's their core asset that they have and they understand very well that they need to protect it and make it available more quickly. I started as a DBA at Morgan Stanley, back, right out of college. And at the time I think it was, it probably still is, but at the time it was the best run IT shop that I'd ever seen in my life. The fundamental problems that we had to solve to get information from one stock exchange to another, to get it to the SEC are the same problems that we're solving today. Back then we were working on mainframes and over high-speed Datacom links. Today, it's the same kind of problem. It's just the underlying infrastructure has changed. >> Yeah, the key, there has been a big supporter of women in tech. We've done thousands of interviews and why I got you. I want to ask you if you don't mind, career advice that you give women who are starting out in the field of engineering, computer science. What do you wish you knew when you started your career? And if you could be that person now, what would you say? >> Yeah, well, a lot of things I wish I knew then that I know now, but I think there are two key aspects to a successful career in engineering. I actually got started as a math major and the reason I became a math major is a little convoluted. As a girl, I was told we were bad at math. And so for some reason I decided that I had to major in it. That's actually how I got my start, but I've had a great career. And I think there are really two key aspects. First, is that it is a discipline in which respect is gained through merit. As I had mentioned earlier, engineers are notoriously detail-oriented and most are, perfectionists. They love elegant, well thought-out solutions and give respect when they see one. So understanding this can be a very important advantage if you're always prepared and you always bring your A-game to every debate, every presentation, every conversation, you have build up respect among your team, simply through merit. While that may mean that you need to be prepared to defend every point early on, say, in your graduate career or when you're starting, over time others will learn to trust your judgment and begin to intuitively follow your lead just by reputation. The reverse is also true. If you don't bring your A-game and you don't come prepared to debate, you will quickly lose respect. And that's particularly true if you're a woman. So if you don't know your stuff, don't engage in the debate until you do. >> That's awesome advice. >> That's... >> All right, continue. >> Thank you. So my second piece of advice that I wish I could give my younger self is to understand the roles of leaders and influencers in your career and the importance of choosing and purposely working with each. I like to break it down into three types of influencers, managers, mentors, and advocates. So that first group are the people in your management chain. It's your first line manager, your director, your VP, et cetera. Their role in your career is to help you measure short-term success. And particularly with how that success aligns with their goals and the company's goals. But it's important to understand that they are not your mentors and they may not have a direct interest in your long-term career success. I like to think of them as, say, you're sixth grade math teacher. You know, you getting an A in the class and advancing to seventh grade. They own you for that. But whether you get that basketball scholarship to college or getting to Harvard or become a CEO, they have very little influence over that. So a mentor is someone who does have a shared interest in your long-term success, maybe by your relationship with him or her, or because by helping you shape your career and achieve your own success, you help advance their goals. Whether it be the company success or helping more women achieve leadership positions or getting more kids into college on a basketball scholarship, whatever it is, they have some long-term goal that aligns with helping you with your career. And they give great advice. But that mentor is not enough because they're often outside the sphere of influence in your current position. And while they can offer great advice and coaching, they may not be able to help you directly advance. That's the role of the third type of influencer. Somebody that I call an advocate. An advocate is someone that's in a position to directly influence your advancement and champion you and your capabilities to others. They are in influential positions and others place great value in their opinions. Advocates stay with you throughout your career, and they'll continue to support you and promote you wherever you are and wherever they are, whether that's the same organization or not. They're the ones who, when a leadership position opens up will say, I think Mary's the right person to take on that challenge, or we need to move in a new direction, I think Mary's the right person to lead that effort. Now advocates are the most important people to identify early on and often in your career. And they're often the most overlooked. People early on often pay too much attention and rely on their management chain for advancement. Managers change on a dime, but mentors and advocates are there for you for the long haul. And that's one of the unique things about the database culture. Those set of advocates were just there already because they had focused on building the next generation. So I consider, you know, Mike Carey as my father and Mike Stonebraker as my grandfather, and Jim Gray as my great-grandfather and they're always there to advocate for me. >> That's like a schema and a database. You got to have it all right there, kind of teed up. Beautiful. (laughing) Great advice. >> Exactly. >> Thank you for that. That was really a masterclass. And that's going to be great advice for folks, really trying to figure out how to play the cards they have and the situation, and to double down or move and find other opportunities. So great stuff there. I do have to ask you Mary, thanks for coming on the technical side and the product side. Couchbase Capella was launched in conjunction with the event. What is the bottom line for that as, as an Operations and Engineering, built the products and rolled it out. What's the main top line message for about that product? >> Yeah. Well, we're very excited about the release of Capella and what it brings to the table is that it's a fully managed and automated database cloud offering so that customers can focus on development and building and improving their applications and reducing the time to market without having to worry about the hard problems underneath, and the operational database management efforts that come with it. As I mentioned earlier, I started my career as a DBA and it was one of the most sought after and highly paid positions in IT because operating a database required so much work. So with Capella, what we're seeing is, taking that job away from me. I'm not going to be able to apply for a DBA tomorrow. >> That's great stuff. Well, great. Thanks for coming. I really appreciate it. Congratulations on the company and the public offering this past summer in July and thanks for that great commentary and insight on theCUBE here. Thank you. >> Thank you very much. >> Okay. Mary Roth, VP of Engineering Operations at Couchbase part of Couchbase ConnectONLINE. I'm John Furrier, host of theCUBE. Thanks for watching. (upbeat music playing)

(upbeat music) >> Announcer: From the cube Studios in Palo Alto and Boston, it's the cube! Covering IBM Think. Brought to you by IBM. >> Hi everybody, this is Dave Vellante of theCUBE, and you're watching our coverage of the IBM digital event experience. A multi-day program, tons of content, and it's our pleasure to be able to bring in experts, practitioners, customers, and partners. Sriram Raghavan is here. He's the Vice President of IBM Research in AI. Sriram, thanks so much for coming on thecUBE. >> Thank you, pleasure to be here. >> I love this title, I love the role. It's great work if you're qualified for it.(laughs) So, tell us a little bit about your role and your background. You came out of Stanford, you had the pleasure, I'm sure, of hanging out in South San Jose at the Almaden labs. Beautiful place to create. But give us a little background. >> Absolutely, yeah. So, let me start, maybe go backwards in time. What do I do now? My role's responsible for AI strategy, planning, and execution in IBM Research across our global footprint, all our labs worldwide and their working area. I also work closely with the commercial parts. The parts of IBM, our Software and Services business that take the innovation, AI innovation, from IBM Research to market. That's the second part of what I do. And where did I begin life in IBM? As you said, I began life at our Almaden Research Center up in San Jose, up in the hills. Beautiful, I had in a view. I still think it's the best view I had. I spent many years there doing work at the intersection of AI and large-scale data management, NLP. Went back to India, I was running the India lab there for a few years, and now I'm back here in New York running AI strategy. >> That's awesome. Let's talk a little bit about AI, the landscape of AI. IBM has always made it clear that you're not doing consumer AI. You're really tying to help businesses. But how do you look at the landscape? >> So, it's a great question. It's one of those things that, you know, we constantly measure ourselves and our partners tell us. I think we, you've probably heard us talk about the cloud journey . But look barely 20% of the workloads are in the cloud, 80% still waiting. AI, at that number is even less. But, of course, it varies. Depending on who you ask, you would say AI adoption is anywhere from 4% to 30% depending on who you ask in this case. But I think it's more important to look at where is this, directionally? And it's very, very clear. Adoption is rising. The value is more, it's getting better appreciated. But I think more important, I think is, there is broader recognition, awareness and investment, knowing that to get value out of AI, you start with where AI begins, which is data. So, the story around having a solid enterprise information architecture as the base on which to drive AI, is starting to happen. So, as the investments in data platform, becoming making your data ready for AI, starts to come through. We're definitely seeing that adoption. And I think, you know, the second imperative that businesses look for obviously is the skills. The tools and the skills to scale AI. It can't take me months and months and hours to go build an AI model, I got to accelerate it, and then comes operationalizing. But this is happening, and the upward trajectory is very, very clear. >> We've been talking a lot on theCUBE over the last couple of years, it's not the innovation engine of our industry is no longer Moore's Law, it's a combination of data. You just talked about data. Applying machine technology to that data, being able to scale it, across clouds, on-prem, wherever the data lives. So. >> Right. >> Having said that, you know, you've had a journey. You know, you started out kind of playing "Jeopardy!", if you will. It was a very narrow use case, and you're expanding that use case. I wonder if you could talk about that journey, specifically in the context of your vision. >> Yeah. So, let me step back and say for IBM Research AI, when I think about how we, what's our strategy and vision, we think of it as in two parts. One part is the evolution of the science and techniques behind AI. And you said it, right? From narrow, bespoke AI that all it can do is this one thing that it's really trained for, it takes a large amount of data, a lot of computing power. Two, how do you have the techniques and the innovation for AI to learn from one use case to the other? Be less data hungry, less resource hungry. Be more trustworthy and explainable. So, we call that the journey from narrow to broad AI. And one part of our strategy, as scientists and technologists, is the innovation to make that happen. So that's sort of one part. But, as you said, as people involved in making AI work in the enterprise, and IBM Research AI vision would be incomplete without the second part, which is, what are the challenges in scaling and operationalizing AI? It isn't sufficient that I can tell you AI can do this, how do I make AI do this so that you get the right ROI, the investment relative to the return makes sense and you can scale and operationalize. So, we took both of these imperatives. The AI narrow-to-broad journey, and the need to scale and operationalize. And what of the things that are making it hard? The things that make scaling and operationalizing harder: data challenges, we talked about that, skills challenges, and the fact that in enterprises, you have to govern and manage AI. And we took that together and we think of our AI agenda in three pieces: Advancing, trusting, and scaling AI. Advancing is the piece of pushing the boundary, making AI narrow to broad. Trusting is building AI which is trustworthy, is explainable, you can control and understand its behavior, make sense of it and all of the technology that goes with it. And scaling AI is when we address the problem of, how do I, you know, reduce the time and cost for data prep? How do I reduce the time for model tweaking and engineering? How do I make sure that a model that you build today, when something changes in the data, I can quickly allow for you to close the loop and improve the model? All of the things, think of day-two operations of AI. All of that is part of our scaling AI strategy. So advancing, trusting, scaling is sort of the three big mantras around which the way we think about our AI. >> Yeah, so I've been doing a little work in this around this notion of DataOps. Essentially, you know, DevOps applied to the data and the data pipeline, and I had a great conversation recently with Inderpal Bhandari, IBM's Global Chief Data Officer, and he explained to me how, first of all, customers will tell you, it's very hard to operationalize AIs. He and his team took that challenge on themselves and have had some great success. And, you know, we all know the problem. It's that, you know AI has to wait for the data. It has to wait for the data to be cleansed and wrangled. Can AI actually help with that part of the problem, compressing that? >> 100%. In fact, the way we think of the automation and scaling story is what we call the "AI For AI" story. So, AI in service of helping you build the AI that helps you make this with speed, right? So, and I think of it really in three parts. It's AI for data automation, our DataOps. AI used in better discovery, better cleansing, better configuration, faster linking, quality assessment, all of that. Using AI to do all of those data problems that you had to do. And I called it AI for data automation. The second part is using AI to automatically figure out the best model. And that's AI for data science automation, which is, feature engineering, hyperparameter optimization, having them all do work, why should a data scientist take weeks and months experimenting? If the AI can accelerate that from weeks to a matter of hours? That's data science automation. And then comes the important part, also, which is operations automation. Okay, I've put a data model into an application. How do I monitor its behavior? If the data that it's seeing is different from the data it was trained on, how do I quickly detect it? And a lot of the work from Research that was part of that Watson OpenScale offering is really addressing the operational side. So AI for data, AI for data science automation, and AI to help automate production of AI, is the way we break that problem up. >> So, I always like to ask folks that are deep into R&D, how they are ultimately are translating into commercial products and offerings? Because ultimately, you got to make money to fund more R&D. So, can you talk a little bit about how you do that, what your focus is there? >> Yeah, so that's a great question, and I'm going to use a few examples as well. But let me say at the outset, this is a very, very closed partnership. So when we, the Research part of AI and our portfolio, it's a closed partnership where we're constantly both drawing problem as well as building technology that goes into the offering. So, a lot of our work, much of our work in AI automation that we were talking about, is part of our Watson Studio, Watson Machine Learning, Watson OpenScale. In fact, OpenScale came out of Research working Trusted AI, and is now a centerpiece of our Watson project. Let me give a very different example. We have a very, very strong portfolio and focus in NLP, Natural Language Processing. And this directly goes into capabilities out of Watson Assistant, which is our system for conversational support and customer support, and Watson Discovery, which is about making enterprise understand unstructurally. And a great example of that is the Working Project Debater that you might have heard, which is a grand challenge in Research about building a machine that can do debate. Now, look, we weren't looking to go sell you a debating machine. But what did we build as part of doing that, is advances in NLP that are all making their way into assistant and discovery. And we actually just talked about earlier this year, announced a set of capabilities around better clustering, advanced summarization, deeper sentiment analysis. These made their way into Assistant and Discovery but are born out of research innovation and solving a grand problem like building a debating machine. That's just an example of how that journey from research to product happens. >> Yeah, the Debater documentary, I've seen some of that. It's actually quite astounding. I don't know what you're doing there. It sounds like you're taking natural language and turning it into complex queries with data science and AI, but it's quite amazing. >> Yes, and I would encourage you, you will see that documentary, by the way, on Channel 7, in the Think Event. And I would encourage you, actually the documentary around how Debater happened, sort of featuring back of the you know, backdoor interviews with the scientist who created it was actually featured last minute at Copenhagen International Documentary Festival. I'll invite viewers to go to Channel 7 and Data and AI Tech On-Demand to go take a look at that documentary. >> Yeah, you should take a look at it. It's actually quite astounding and amazing. Sriram, what are you working on these days? What kind of exciting projects or what's your focus area today? >> Look, I think there are three imperatives that we're really focused on, and one is very, you know, just really the project you're talking about, NLP. NLP in the enterprise, look, text is a language of business, right? Text is the way business is communicated. Within each other, with their partners, with the entire world. So, helping machines understand language, but in an enterprise context, recognizing that data and the enterprises live in complex documents, unstructured documents, in e-mail, they live in conversations with the customers. So, really pushing the boundary on how all our customers and clients can make sense of this vast volume of unstructured data by pushing the advances of NLP, that's one focus area. Second focus area, we talked about trust and how important that is. And we've done amazing work in monitoring and explainability. And we're really focused now on this emerging area of causality. Using causality to explain, right? The model makes this because the model believes this is what it wants, it's a beautiful way. And the third big focus continues to be on automation. So, NLP, trust, automation. Those are, like, three big focus areas for us. >> sriram, how far do you think we can take AI? I know it's a topic of conversation, but from your perspective, deep into the research, how far can it go? And maybe how far should it go? >> Look, I think we are, let me answer it this way. I think the arc of the possible is enormous. But I think we are at this inflection point in which I think the next wave of AI, the AI that's going to help us this narrow-to-broad journey we talked about, look, the narrow-to-broad journey's not like a one-week, one-year. We're talking about a decade of innovation. But I think we are at a point where we're going to see a wave of AI that we like to call "neuro-symbolic AI," which is AI that brings together two sort of fundamentally different approaches to building intelligence systems. One approach of building intelligence system is what we call "knowledge driven." Understand data, understand concept, logically, reasonable. We human beings do that. That was really the way AI was born. The more recent last couple of decades of AI was data driven, Machine learning. Give me vast volumes of data, I'll use neural techniques, deep learning, to to get value. We're at a point where we're going to bring both of them together. Cause you can't build trustworthy, explainable systems using only one, you can't get away from not using all of the data that you have to make them. So, neuro-symbolic AI is, I think, going to be the linchpin of how we advance AI and make it more powerful and trustworthy. >> So, are you, like, living your childhood dream here or what? >> Look, for me I'm fascinated. I've always been fascinated. And any time you can't find a technology person who hasn't dreamt of building an intelligent machine. To have a job where I can work across our worldwide set of 3,000 plus researchers and think and brainstorm on strategy with AI. And then, most importantly, not to forget, right? That you talked about being able to move it into our portfolios so it actually makes a difference for our clients. I think it's a dream job and a whole lot of fun. >> Well, Sriram, it was great having you on theCUBE. A lot of fun, interviewing folks like you. I feel a little bit smarter just talking to you. So thanks so much for coming on. >> Fantastic. It's been a pleasure to be here. >> And thank you for watching, everybody. You're watching theCUBE's coverage of IBM Think 2020. This is Dave Vellante. We'll be right back right after this short break. (upbeat music)

>> Announcer: Live from San Jose, California, it's theCUBE, covering Innovating to Fuel the Next Decade of Big Data, brought to you by Western Digital. >> Hey welcome back everybody, Jeff Frick here with theCUBE. We're at Western Digital at their global headquarters in San Jose, California, it's the Almaden campus. This campus has a long history of innovation, and we're excited to be here, and probably have the smartest person in the building, if not the county, area code and zip code. I love to embarrass here, Janet George, she is the Fellow and Chief Data Scientist for Western Digital. We saw you at Women in Data Science, you were just at Grace Hopper, you're everywhere and get to get a chance to sit down again. >> Thank you Jeff, I appreciate it very much. >> So as a data scientist, today's announcement about MAMR, how does that make you feel, why is this exciting, how is this going to make you be more successful in your job and more importantly, the areas in which you study? >> So today's announcement is actually a breakthrough announcement, both in the field of machine learning and AI, because we've been on this data journey, and we have been very selectively storing data on our storage devices, and the selection is actually coming from the preconstructed queries that we do with business data, and now we no longer have to preconstruct these queries. We can store the data at scale in raw form. We don't even have to worry about the format or the schema of the data. We can look at the schema dynamically as the data grows within the storage and within the applications. >> Right, cause there's been two things, right. Before data was bad 'cause it was expensive to store >> Yes. >> Now suddenly we want to store it 'cause we know data is good, but even then, it still can be expensive, but you know, we've got this concept of data lakes and data swamps and data all kind of oceans, pick your favorite metaphor, but we want the data 'cause we're not really sure what we're going to do with it, and I think what's interesting that you said earlier today, is it was schema on write, then we evolved to schema on read, which was all the rage at Hadoop Summit a couple years ago, but you're talking about the whole next generation, which is an evolving dynamic schema >> Exactly. >> Based whatever happens to drive that query at the time. >> Exactly, exactly. So as we go through this journey, we are now getting independent of schema, we are decoupled from schema, and what we are finding out is we can capture data at its raw form, and we can do the learning at the raw form without human interference, in terms of transformation of the data and assigning a schema to that data. We got to understand the fidelity of the data, but we can train at scale from that data. So with massive amounts of training, the models already know to train itself from raw data. So now we are only talking about incremental learning, as the train model goes out into the field in production, and actually performs, now we are talking about how does the model learn, and this is where fast data plays a very big role. >> So that's interesting, 'cause you talked about that also earlier in your part of the presentation, kind of the fast data versus big data, which kind of maps the flash versus hard drive, and the two are not, it's not either or, but it's really both, because within the storage of the big data, you build the base foundations of the models, and then you can adapt, learn and grow, change with the fast data, with the streaming data on the front end, >> Exactly >> It's a whole new world. >> Exactly, so the fast data actually helps us after the training phase, right, and these are evolving architectures. This is part of your journey. As you come through the big data journey you experience this. But for fast data, what we are seeing is, these architectures like Lambda and Kappa are evolving, and especially the Lambda architecture is very interesting, because it allows for batch processing of historical data, and then it allows for what we call a high latency layer or a speed layer, where this data can then be promoted up the stack for serving purposes. And then Kappa architecture's where the data is being streamed near real time, bounded and unbounded streams of data. So this is again very important when we build machine learning and AI applications, because evolution is happening on the fly, learning is happening on the fly. Also, if you think about the learning, we are mimicking more and more on how humans learn. We don't really learn with very large chunks of data all at once, right? That's important for initially model training and model learning, but on a regular basis, we are learning with small chunks of data that are streamed to us near real time. >> Right, learning on the Delta. >> Learning on the Delta. >> So what is the bound versus the unbound? Unpack that a little bit. What does that mean? >> So what is bounded is basically saying, hey we are going to get certain amounts of data, so you're sizing the data for example. Unbounded is infinite streams of data coming to you. And so if your architecture can absorb infinite streams of data, like for example, the sensors constantly transmitting data to you, right? At that point you're not worried about whether you can store that data, you're simply worried about the fidelity of that data. But bounded would be saying, I'm going to send the data in chunks. You could also do bounded where you basically say, I'm going to pre-process the data a little bit just to see if the data's healthy, or if there is signal in the data. You don't want to find that out later as you're training, right? You're trying to figure that out up front. >> But it's funny, everything is ultimately bounded, it just depends on how you define the unit of time, right, 'cause you take it down to infinite zero, everything is frozen. But I love the example of the autonomous cars. We were at the event with, just talking about navigation just for autonomous cars. Goldman Sachs says it's going to be a seven billion dollar industry, and the great example that you used of the two systems working well together, 'cause is it the car centers or is it the map? >> Janet: That's right. >> And he says, well you know, you want to use the map, and the data from the map as much as you can to set the stage for the car driving down the road to give it some level of intelligence, but if today we happen to be paving lane number two on 101, and there's cones, now it's the real time data that's going to train the system. But the two have to work together, and the two are not autonomous and really can't work independent of each other. >> Yes. >> Pretty interesting. >> It makes perfect sense, right. And why it makes perfect sense is because first the autonomous cars have to learn to drive. Then the autonomous cars have to become an experienced driver. And the experience cannot be learned. It comes on the road. So one of the things I was watching was how insurance companies were doing testing on these cars, and they had a human, a human driving a car, and then an autonomous car. And the autonomous car, with the sensors, were predicting the behavior, every permutation and combination of how a bicycle would react to that car. It was almost predicting what the human on the bicycle would do, like jump in front of the car, and it got it right 80% of the cases. But a human driving a car, we're not sure how the bicycle is going to perform. We don't have peripheral vision, and we can't predict how the bicycle is going to perform, so we get it wrong. Now, we can't transmit that knowledge. If I'm a driver and I just encountered a bicycle, I can't transmit that knowledge to you. But a driverless car can learn, it can predict the behavior of the bicycle, and then it can transfer that information to a fleet of cars. So it's very powerful in where the learning can scale. >> Such a big part of the autonomous vehicle story that most people don't understand, that not only is the car driving down the road, but it's constantly measuring and modeling everything that's happening around it, including bikes, including pedestrians, including everything else, and whether it gets in a crash or not, it's still gathering that data and building the model and advancing the models, and I think that's, you know, people just don't talk about that enough. I want follow up on another topic. So we were both at Grace Hopper last week, which is a phenomenal experience, if you haven't been, go. Ill just leave it at that. But Dr. Fei-Fei Li gave one of the keynotes, and she made a really deep statement at the end of her keynote, and we were both talking about it before we turned the cameras on, which is, there's no question that AI is going to change the world, and it's changing the world today. The real question is, who are the people that are going to build the algorithms that train the AI? So you sit in your position here, with the power, both in the data and the tools and the compute that are available today, and this brand new world of AI and ML. How do you think about that? How does that make you feel about the opportunity to define the systems that drive the cars, et cetera. >> I think not just the diversity in data, but the diversity in the representation of that data are equally powerful. We need both. Because we cannot tackle diverse data, diverse experiences with only a single representation. We need multiple representation to be able to tackle that data. And this is how we will overcome bias of every sort. So it's not the question of who is going to build the AI models, it is a question of who is going to build the models, but not the question of will the AI models be built, because the AI models are already being built, but some of the models have biases into it from any kind of lack of representation. Like who's building the model, right? So I think it's very important. I think we have a powerful moment in history to change that, to make real impact. >> Because the trick is we all have bias. You can't do anything about it. We grew up in the world in which we grew up, we saw what we saw, we went to our schools, we had our family relationships et cetera. So everyone is locked into who they are. That's not the problem. The problem is the acceptance of bring in some other, (chuckles) and the combination will provide better outcomes, it's a proven scientific fact. >> I very much agree with that. I also think that having the freedom, having the choice to hear another person's conditioning, another person's experiences is very powerful, because that enriches our own experiences. Even if we are constrained, even if we are like that storage that has been structured and processed, we know that there's this other storage, and we can figure out how to get the freedom between the two point of views, right? And we have the freedom to choose. So that's very, very powerful, just having that freedom. >> So as we get ready to turn the calendar on 2017, which is hard to imagine it's true, it is. You look to 2018, what are some of your personal and professional priorities, what are you looking forward to, what are you working on, what's top of mind for Janet George? >> So right now I'm thinking about genetic algorithms, genetic machine learning algorithms. This has been around for a while, but I'll tell you where the power of genetic algorithms is, especially when you're creating powerful new technology memory cell. So when you start out trying to create a new technology memory cell, you have materials, material deformations, you have process, you have hundred permutation combination, and the genetic algorithms, we can quickly assign a cause function, and we can kill all the survival of the fittest, all that won't fit we can kill, arriving to the fastest, quickest new technology node, and then from there, we can scale that in mass production. So we can use these survival of the fittest mechanisms that evolution has used for a long period of time. So this is biology inspired. And using a cause function we can figure out how to get the best of every process, every technology, all the coupling effects, all the master effects of introducing a program voltage on a particular cell, reducing the program voltage on a particular cell, resetting and setting, and the neighboring effects, we can pull all that together, so 600, 700 permutation combination that we've been struggling on and not trying to figure out how to quickly narrow down to that perfect cell, which is the new technology node that we can then scale out into tens of millions of vehicles, right? >> Right, you're going to have to >> Getting to that spot. >> You're going to have to get me on the whiteboard on that one, Janet. That is amazing. Smart lady. >> Thank you. >> Thanks for taking a few minutes out of your time. Always great to catch up, and it was terrific to see you at Grace Hopper as well. >> Thank you, I really appreciate it, I appreciate it very much. >> All right, Janet George, I'm Jeff Frick. You are watching theCUBE. We're at Western Digital headquarters at Innovating to Fuel the Next Generation of Big Data. Thanks for watching.

>> Announcer: Live from San Jose, California, it's theCUBE, covering Innovating to Fuel the Next Decade of Big Data, brought to you by Western Digital. >> Hey welcome back everybody, Jeff Frick here with theCUBE. We're at Western Digital's headquarters in San Jose, California at the Almaden campus. Lot of innovation's been going on here, especially in storage for decades, and we're excited to be at this special press and analyst event that Western Digital put on today to announce some exciting new products. It's called Innovating to Fuel the Next Decade of Data. I'm super happy to have a long-time industry veteran, he just told me, 35 years, I don't know if I can tell (Mark laughs) that on air or not. He's Mark Grace, he's the Senior Vice President of Devices for Western Digital, Mar, great to have you on. >> Thanks Jeff, glad to be here. >> Absolutely, so you've seen this movie over and over and over, I mean that's one of the cool things about being in the Valley, is this relentless pace of innovation. So how does today's announcement stack up as you kind of look at this versus kind of where we've come from? >> Oh I think this is maybe one of the, as big as it comes, Jeff, to be honest. I think we've plotted a course now that I think was relatively uncertain for the hard drive industry and the data center, and plotted a course that I think we can speak clearly to the market, and clearly to customers about the value proposition for rotating magnetic storage for decades to come. >> Which is pretty interesting, 'cause, you know, rotating drives have been taking a hit over the last couple of years, right, flash has been kind of the sexy new kid on the block, so this is something new, >> Mark: It is. >> And a new S curve I think as John said. >> I agree, we're jumping onto a, we're extending the S curve, let's call it that. I think there's actually plenty of other S curve opportunities for us, but in this case, I think the industry, and I would say our customer base, we have been less than clear with those guys about how we see the future of rotating storage in the cloud and enterprise space, and I think today's announcement clarifies that and gives some confidence about architectural decisions relative to rotating storage going forward for a long time. >> Well I think it's pretty interesting, 'cause compared to the other technology that was highlighted, the other option, the HAMR versus the MAMR, this was a much more elegant, simpler way to add this new S curve into an existing ecosystem. >> You know, elegant's probably a good word for it, and it's always the best solution I would say. HAMR's been a push for many years. I can't remember the first time I heard about HAMR. It's still something we're going to continue to explore and invest in, but it has numerous hurdles compared to the simplicity and elegance, as you say, of MAMR, not the least of which is we're going to operate at normal ambient temperatures versus apply tremendous heat to try and energize the recording and the technologies. So any time you introduce extraordinary heat you face all kinds of ancillary engineering challenges, and this simplifies those challenges down to one critical innovation, which is the oscillator. >> Pretty interesting, 'cause it seems pretty obvious that heat's never a good thing. So it's curious that in the quest for this next S curve that the HAMR path was pursued for as long as it was, it sounds like, because it sounds like that's a pretty tough thing to overcome. >> Yeah, I think it initially presented perhaps the most longevity perhaps in early exploration days. I would say that HAMR has certainly received the most press as far as trying to assert it as the extending recording technology for enterprise HDDs. I would say we've invested for almost as long in MAMR, but we've been extremely quiet about it. This is kind of our nature. When we're ready to talk about something, you can kind of be sure we're ready to go with it, and ready to think about productization. So we're quite confident in what we're doing. >> But I'm curious from your perspective, having been in the business a long time, you know, we who are not directly building these magical machines, just now have come to expect that Moore's Law will contain, has zero to do with semiconductor physics anymore, it's really an attitude and this relentless pace of innovation that now is expected and taken for granted. You're on the other side, and have to face real physics and mechanical limitations of the media and the science and everything else. So is that something that gets you up every day >> Mark: Keeps me awake every night! >> Obviously keeps you awake at night and up every day. You've been doing it for 35 years, so there must be some appeal. >> Yeah. (laughs) >> But you know, it's a unique challenge, 'cause at the same time not only has it got to be better and faster and bigger, it's got to be cheaper, and it has been. So when you look at that, how does that kind of motivate you, the teams here, to deliver on that promise? >> Yeah, I mean in this case, we are a little bit defensive, in the sense of the flash expectations that you mentioned, and I think as we digest our news today, we'll be level setting a little bit more in a more balanced way the expectations for contribution from rotating magnetic storage and solid state storage to what I think is a more accurate picture of its future going forward in the enterprise and hyperscale space. To your point about just relentless innovation, a few of us were talking the other day in advance of this announcement that this MAMR adventure feels like the early days of PMR, perpendicular, the current recording technology. It feels like we understand a certain amount of distance ahead of us, and that's about this four-terabit per inch kind of distance, but it feels like the early days where we could only see so far but the road actually goes much further, and we're going to find more and more ways to extend this technology, and keep that order of magnitude cost advantage going from a hard drive standpoint versus flash. >> I wonder how this period compares to that, just to continue, in terms of on the demand side, 'cause you know, back in the day, the demand and the applications for these magical compute machines weren't near, I would presume, as pervasive as now, or am I missing the boat? 'Cause now clearly there is no shortage of demand for storage and compute. >> Yeah, depending on where you're coming from, you could take two different views of that. The engine that drove the scale of the hard drive industry to date has, a big piece of it in the long history of the hard drive industry has been the PC space. So you see that industry converting to flash and solid state storage more aggressively, and we embrace that, you know we're invested in flash and we have great products in that space, and we see that happening. The opportunity in the hyperscale and cloud space is we're only at the tip of the iceberg, and therefore I think, as we think about this generation, we think about it differently than those opportunities in terms of breadth of applications, PCs, and all that kind of create the foundation for the hard drive, but what we see here is the virtuous cycle of more storage, more economical storage begets more value proposition, more opportunities to integrate more data, more data collection, more storage. And that virtuous cycle seems to me that we're just getting started. So long live data, that's what we say. (both laugh) >> The other piece that I find interesting is before the PCs were the driver of scale relative to an enterprise data center, but with the hyperscale guys and the proliferation of cloud and actually the growth of PCs is slowing down dramatically, that it's kind of flipped the bit. Now the data centers themselves have the scale to drive >> Absolutely. >> the scale innovation that before was before was really limited to either a PC or a phone or some more consumer device. >> Absolutely the case. When you take that cross-section of hard drive applications, that's a hundred percent the case, and in fact, we look at the utilization as a vertically integrated company we look at our media facilities for the disks, we look at our wafer facilities for heads, and those facilities as we look forward are going to be as busy as busier than they've ever been. I mean the amount of data is relative to the density as well as disks and heads and how many you can employ. So we see this in terms of fundamental technology and component construction, manufacturing, busier than it's ever been. We'll make fewer units. I mean there will be fewer units as they become bigger and denser for this application space, but the fundamental consumption of magnetic recording technology and components is all-time records. >> Right. And you haven't even talked about the software-defined piece that's dragging the utilization of that data across multiple applications. >> And it's just one of these that come in to help everybody there too, yeah. >> Jeff: You got another 35 years more years in you? (both laugh) >> I hope so. >> All right. >> But that would be the edge of it, I think. >> All right, we're going to take Mark Grace here, only 35 more years, Lord knows what he'll be working on. Well Mark, thanks for taking a few minutes and answering your prospective >> No that's fine, thanks a lot. >> Absolutely, Mark Grace, I'm Jeff Frick, you're watching theCUBE from Western Digital headquarters in San Jose, California. Thanks for watching. >> Mark: All right.

(upbeat techno music) >> Announcer: Live from San Jose, California it's theCUBE, covering Innovating to Fuel the Next Decade of Big Data, brought to you by Western Digital. >> Hey, welcome back everybody. Jeff Frick here at theCUBE. We're at the Western Digital Headquarters off Almaden down in San Jose, a really important place. Western Digital's been here for a while, their headquarters. A lot of innovation's been going on here forever. So we're excited to be here really for the next generation. The event's called Innovating to Fuel the Next Generation of big data, and we're joined by many time Cuber, Dave Tang. He is the SVP in corporate marketing from Western Digital. Dave, always great to see you. >> Yeah. Always great to be here, Jeff. Thanks. >> Absolutely. So you got to MC the announcement today. >> Yes. >> So for the people that weren't there, let's give them a quick overview on what the announcement was and then we can dive in a little deeper. >> Great, so what we were announcing was a major breakthrough in technology that's going to allow us to drive the increase in capacity in density to support big data for the next decade and beyond, right? So capacities and densities had been starting to level off in terms of hard drive technology capability. So what we announced was microwave-assisted magnetic recording technology that will allow us to keep growing that areal density up and reducing the cost per terabyte. >> You know, it's fascinating cause everyone loves to talk about Moore's Law and have these silly architectural debates, whether Moore's Law is alive or dead, but, as anyone who's lived here knows, Moore's Law is really an attitude much more it is than the specific physics of microprocessor density growth. And it's interesting to see. As we know the growth of data is growing in giant and the types of data, and not only regular big data, but now streaming data are bigger and bigger and bigger. I think you talked about stuff coming off of people and machines compared to business data is way bigger. >> Right. >> But you guys continue to push limits and break through, and even though we expect everything to be cheaper, faster, and better, you guys actually have to execute it-- >> Dave: Right. >> Back at the factory. >> Right, well it's interesting. There's this healthy tension, right, a push and pull in the environment. So you're right, it's not just Moore's Law that's enabling a technology push, but we have this virtuous cycle, right? We've realized what the value is of data and how to extract the possibilities and value of data, so that means that we want to store more of that data and access more of that data, which drives the need for innovation to be able to support all of that in a cost effective way. But then that triggers another wave of new applications, new ways to tap into the possibilities of data. So it just feeds on itself, and fortunately we have great technologists, great means of innovation, and a great attitude and spirit of innovation to help drive that. >> Yeah, so for people that want more, they can go to the press releases and get the data. We won't dive deep into the weeds here on the technology, but I thought you had Janet George speak, and she's chief data scientist. Phenomenal, phenomenal big brain. >> Dave: Yes. >> A smart lady. But she talked about, from her perspective we're still just barely even getting onto this data opportunity in terms of automation, and we see over and over at theCUBE events, innovation's really not that complicated. Give more people access to the data, give them more access to the tools, and let them try things easier and faster and feel quick, there's actually a ton of innovation that companies can unlock within their own four walls. But the data is such an important piece of it, and there's more and more and more of this. >> Dave: Right, right. >> What used to be digital exhaust now is, I think maybe you said, or maybe it was Dave, that there's a whole economy now built on data like we used to do with petroleum. I thought that was really insightful. >> Yeah, right. It's like a gold mine. So not only are the sources of data increasing, which is driving increased volume, but, as Janet was alluding to, we're starting to come up with the tools and the sophistication with machine learning and artificial intelligence to be able to put that data to new use as well as to find the pieces of data to interconnect, to drive these new capabilities and new insights. >> Yeah, but unlike petroleum it doesn't get used up. I mean that's the beauty of data. (laughing) >> Yeah, that's right. >> It's a digital process that can be used over and over and over again. >> And a self-renewing, renewing resource. And you're right, in that sense that it's being used over and over again that the longevity of that data, the use for life is growing exponentially along with the volume. >> Right, and Western Digital's in a unique position cause you have systems and you have big systems that could be used in data centers, but you also have the media that powers a whole bunch of other people's systems. So I thought one of the real important announcements today was, yes it's an interesting new breakthrough technology that uses energy assist to get more density on the drives, but it's done in such a way that the stuff's all backward compatible. It's plug and play. You've got production scheduled in a couple years I think with test out the customers-- >> Dave: That's right. >> Next year. So, you know, that is such an important piece beyond the technology. What's the commercial acceptance? What are the commercial barriers? And this sounds like a pretty interesting way to skin that cow. >> Right, often times the best answers aren't the most complex answers. They're the more elegant and simplistic answers. So it goes from the standpoint of a user being able to plug and play with older systems, older technologies. That's beautiful, and for us, to be able to, the ability to manufacture it in high volume reliably and cost effectively is equally as important. >> And you also talked, which I think was interesting, is kind of the relationship between hard drives and flash, because, obviously, flash is a, I want to say the sexy new toy, but it's not a sexy new toy anymore. >> Right. >> It's been around for a while, but, with that pressure on flash performance, you're still seeing the massive amounts of big data, which is growing faster than that. And there is a rule for the high density hard drives in that environment, and, based on the forecast you shared, which I'm presuming came from IDC or people that do numbers for a living, still a significant portion of a whole lot of data is not going to be on flash. >> Yeah, that's right. I think we have a tendency, especially in technology, to think either or, right? Something is going to take over from something else, but in this case it's definitely an and, right. And a lot of that is driven by this notion that there's fast data and big data, and, while our attention seems to shift over to maybe some fast data applications like autonomous vehicles and realtime applications, surveillance applications, there's still a need for big data because the algorithms that drive those realtime applications have to come from analysis of vast amounts of data. So big data is here to stay. It's not going away or shifting over. >> I think it's a really interesting kind of cross over, which Janet talked about too, where you need the algorithms to continue sharing the system that are feeding, continuing, and reacting to the real data, but then that just adds more vocabulary to their learning set so they can continue to evolve overtime. >> Yeah, what really helps us out in the market place is that because we have technologies and products across that full spectrum of flash and rotating magnetic recording, and we sell to customers who buy devices as well as platforms and systems, we see a lot of applications, a lot of uses of data, and we're able to then anticipate what those needs are going to be in the near future and in the distant future. >> Right, so we're getting towards the end of 2017, which I find hard to say, but as you look forward kind of to 2018 and this insatiable desire for more storage, cause this insatiable creation of more data, what are some of your priorities for 2018 and what are you kind of looking at as, like I said, I can't believe we're going to actually flip the calendar here-- >> Dave: Right, right. >> In just a few short months. (laughing) >> Well, I think for us, it's the realization that all these applications that are coming at us are more and more diverse, and their needs are very specialized. So it's not just the storage, although we're thought of as a storage company, it's not just about the storage of that data, but you have contrive complete environments to capture and preserve and access and transform that data, which means we have to go well beyond storage and think about how that data is accessed, technical interfaces to our memory products as well as storage products, and then where compute sits. Does it still sit in a centralized place or do you move compute to out closer to where the data sits. So, all this innovation and changing the way that we think about how we can mine that data is top of the mind for us for the next year and beyond. >> It's only job security for you, Dave. (laughing) >> Dave: Funny to think about. >> Alright. He's Dave Tang. Thanks for inviting us and again congratulations on the presentation. >> Always a pleasure. >> Alright, Dave Tang, I'm Jeff Frick. You're watching theCUBE from Western Digital headquarters in San Jose, California. Thanks for watching. (upbeat techno music)

>> Male voiceover: Live from San Jose California, it's the Cube, covering Innovating to Fuel the Next Decade of Big Data. Brought to you by Western Digital. >> Hey, welcome back everybody, Jeff Frick here with the Cube. We're at the Western Digital World Headquarters It's the Almaden Campus in San Jose. If you know anything about the tech world, you know there's a lot of innovation that's been happening on this campus for years and years and years. Big announcement today called Innovating to Fuel the Next Generation of Big Data. Lot of exciting announcements and here to join us to tell us all about it is Brendan Collins. He's the Vice President of Product Marketing Devices for Western Digital. Brendan, great to see you. >> Thank you, glad to be here. >> Absolutely so, really exciting announcement. You know, I've talked to Kim Stevenson at Intel, we had an interview talking about Moore's law. And one thing she really reinforced is that Moore's law is really more of an attitude than it is specifically physics, and whether you want to argue the physics is one thing, but the attitude for innovation, to continue to deliver a lot more for less, just continues, continues, and continues, and you guys announced a huge step in that direction today. >> Yeah, we have a challenge that storage is growing at a rate of about 40 percent per year. And budgets from the data centers are not growing, right? So the challenge is for us to develop new technologies that allow us to stay on the technology curve, and cut costs and do that efficiently. >> Then this is a big one, so let's jump in. So actually it was years ago I was actually at the event when you guys introduced the Helium drives, and that was a big deal there, and you've continued to kind of move that innovation but then you can see a plateau. And the density of this data, so you guys had to come up with something new. >> Yeah, what we've seen is that our PMR technology that we use currently is slowly running out of steam, right? So in order to come down the cost curve, we needed to boost areal density. And luckily we were able to come up with a new breakthrough in MAMR technology that will allow us to do that for the next decade. >> It's interesting in the talk, you talked about you guys could see this kind of coming and you actually put a lot of bets on the table, you didn't just bet on MAMR, you bet on HAMR, and you continued along a number of multiple tracks, and you've been at this for a while. What was kind of the innovation that finally gave you a breakthrough moment that got us to where we are today? >> Well, there were multiple technologies that we could have invested in, and we decided to continue on the two major ones which were HAMR and MAMR but we made a decision to invest in a process called, a head fabrication process called damascene that allowed us to extend the life of PMR for the last five to six years, and it's been in all the products we've been shipping since 2013. >> And you talked the areal density, so that's basically the amount of information we can put on the square inch of surface area And you've really, you attacked it on two vectors. One is how many tracks, just think of a record, how many tracks can you get on an album, in terms of the number of lines, and then how much density then you can have on each of those tracks. >> That's right, that's right. And you're now seeing major improvements on both of those factors. >> Well if you look at, we've had three enabling technologies in our products for the past three to four years, right. One is helium, one is micro actuation, and the other is the damascene process. Damascene and micro actuation actually push track density which enables higher capacity. But the newer technology that we're talking about, MAMR, addresses both factors. So we push the track density even tighter together, But we also boost the linear density at the same time, and we do that without adding cost. >> Right. The other thing you talked about, and I think it's a really important piece, right it's not only the technology breakthrough, but it's also how does that fit within the existing ecosystem of your customers, and obviously big giant data centers and big giant cloud providers, we actually have a show going on at a big cloud show right now, and this technology was innovative in that you've got a breakthrough on density, but not so crazy that you introduced a whole bunch of new factors into the ecosystem that would then have to be incorporated into all these systems, because you guys not only make your own systems, but you make the media that feeds a whole host of ecosystems, and that was a pretty important piece. >> If you look at some previous technologies we've introduced whether it be even 4K sectors in the industry, or shingled magnetic reporting, both of those require whole side modifications. Any time you have whole side modifications, it generally slows down the adoption, right? With HAMR, one of the challenges that we had was because of the concerns with thermals on the media, we needed a process called wear leveling, and that required whole software changes. In contrast, when we go to MAMR, everything is seamless, everything is transparent, and it's great. >> Right. I thought it was much simpler than that. I thought just heat is bad, HAMR is heat, and MAMR is microwave, and you know, heat and efficiency and data centers and all those, kind of again, system-level concerns; heat's never a good thing in electronics. >> Well, and in the case of MAMR versus HAMR, there's like an order of magnitude difference in the temperature on the disk, which is the key concern. >> And then of course as you mentioned in the key note, this is real, you've got sample units going on, correct me if I'm wrong, as early as next year >> That's right. >> you're hoping you'd be in scale production in 2020. Where some of these other competing technologies, there's really still no forecasted ship date on the horizon. >> Yeah, you can generate samples, you can build lower quantities of these HAMR drives, but you still have that big concern out there in front of you, how do I address the reliability, how do I address the complexity of all these new materials, and then if I got all of that to work, how do I do it commercially because of the cost additives. >> Right; so I just want to get your perspective before we let you go, you're busy, there's a high demand for your time, as you kind of think back and look at these increasing demands for storage, this increasing demand for computers, and I think one of the data points given is, you know, the data required for humans and machines and IOT is growing way way way way faster than business focused data which has been the driver of a lot of this stuff, if you just kind of sit back and take a look, you know, what are some of your thoughts because I'm sure not that long ago you could have never imagined that there would be the demand for the types of capacities that we're talking about now and we both know that when we sit down five years from now, ten years ago, you know, ten years from now, we're going to look back at today and think, you know, that was zero. >> Yeah, way back in the day there were just PCs and servers and there was traditional IT with rate, today with autonomous cars and IOT and AI and machine learning, it's just going to continue, so that exponential growth that you saw, there's no sign of that slowing down, which is good news for us. >> Yeah, good job security for you for sure. >> You bet! >> Alright Brendan, well, again, thanks for taking a few minutes to sit down and congratulations on the great event and the launch of these new products. >> Thank you, thank you. >> He's Brendan Collins, I'm Jeff Frick, you're watching the Cube from the Western Digital Headquarters in San Jose California. Thanks for watching.