>> Hey everyone. Welcome back to theCUBE's coverage day two of CloudNative Security CON 23. Lisa Martin here in studio in Palo Alto with John Furrier. John, we've had some great conversations. I've had a global event. This was a global event. We had Germany on yesterday. We had the Boston Studio. We had folks on the ground in Seattle. Lot of great conversations, a lot of great momentum at this event. What is your number one takeaway with this inaugural event? >> Well, first of all, our coverage with our CUBE alumni experts coming in remotely this remote event for us, I think this event as an inaugural event stood out because one, it was done very carefully and methodically from the CNCF. I think they didn't want to overplay their hand relative to breaking out from CUBE CON So Kubernetes success and CloudNative development has been such a success and that event and ecosystem is booming, right? So that's the big story is they have the breakout event and the question was, was it a good call? Was it successful? Was it going to, would the dog hunt as they say, in this case, I think the big takeaway is that it was successful by all measures. One, people enthusiastic and confident that this has the ability to stand on its own and still contribute without taking away from the benefits and growth of Kubernetes CUBE CON and CloudNative console. So that was the key. Hallway conversations, the sessions all curated and developed properly to be different and focused for that reason. So I think the big takeaway is that the CNCF did a good job on how they rolled this out. Again, it was very intimate event small reminds me of first CUBE CON in Seattle, kind of let's test it out. Let's see how it goes. Again, clearly it was people successful and they understood why they're doing it. And as we commented out in our earlier segments this is not something new. Amazon Web Services has re:Invent and re:Inforce So a lot of parallels there. I see there. So I think good call. CNCF did the right thing. I think this has legs. And then as Dave pointed out, Dave Vellante, on our last keynote analysis was the business model of the hackers is better than the business model of the industry. They're making more money, it costs less so, you know, they're playing offense and the industry playing defense. That has to change. And as Dave pointed out we have to make the cost of hacking and breaches and cybersecurity higher so that the business model crashes. And I think that's the strategic imperative. So I think the combination of the realities of the market globally and open source has to go faster. It's good to kind of decouple and be highly cohesive in the focus. So to me that's the big takeaway. And then the other one is, is that there's a lot more security problems still unresolved. The emphasis on developers productivity is at risk here, if not solved. You saw supply chain software, again, front and center and then down in the weeds outside of Kubernetes, things like BIND and DNS were brought up. You're seeing the Linux kernel. Really important things got to be paid attention to. So I think very good call, very good focus. >> I would love if for us to be able to, as the months go on talk to some of the practitioners that actually got to attend. There were 72 sessions, that's a lot of content for a small event. Obviously to your point, very well curated. We did hear from some folks yesterday who were just excited to get the community back together in person. To your point, having this dedicated focus on CloudNativesecurity is incredibly important. You talked about, you know, the offense defense, the fact that right now the industry needs to be able to pivot from being on defense to being on offense. This is a challenging thing because it is so lucrative for hackers. But this seems to be from what we've heard in the last couple days, the right community with the right focus to be able to make that pivot. >> Yeah, and I think if you look at the success of Kubernetes, 'cause again we were there at theCUBE first one CUBE CON, the end user stories really drove end user participation. Drove the birth of Kubernetes. Left some of these CloudNative early adopters early pioneers that were using cloud hyperscale really set the table for CloudNative CON. I think you're seeing that here with this CloudNative SecurityCON where I think we're see a lot more end user stories because of the security, the hairs on fire as we heard from Madrona Ventures, you know, as they as an investor you have a lot of use cases out there where customers are leaning in with getting the rolling up their sleeves, working with open source. This has to be the driver. So I'm expecting to see the next level of SecurityCON to be end user focused. Much more than vendor focused. Where CUBECON was very end user focused and then attracted all the vendors in that grew the industry. I expect the similar pattern here where end user action will be very high at the beginning and that will essentially be the rising tide for the vendors to be then participating. So I expect almost a similar trajectory to CUBECON. >> That's a good path that it needs to all be about all the end users. One of the things I'm curious if what you heard was what are some of the key factors that are going to move CloudNative Security forward? What did you hear the last two days? >> I heard that there's a lot of security problems and no one wants to kind of brag about this but there's a lot of under the hood stuff that needs to get taken care of. So if automation scales, and we heard that from one of the startups we've just interviewed. If automation and scale continues to happen and with the business model of the hackers still booming, security has to be refactored quickly and there's going to be an opportunity structurally to use the cloud for that. So I think it's a good opportunity now to get dedicated focus on fixing things like the DNS stuff old school under the hood, plumbing, networking protocols. You're going to start to see this super cloud-like environment emerge where data's involved, everything's happening and so security has to be re imagined. And I think there's a do over opportunity for the security industry with CloudNative driving that. And I think this is the big thing that I see as an opportunity to, from a story standpoint from a coverage standpoint is that it's a do-over for security. >> One of the things that we heard yesterday is that there's a lot of it, it's a pretty high percentage of organizations that either don't have a SOCK or have a very primitive SOCK. Which kind of surprised me that at this day and age the risks are there. We talked about that today's focus and the keynote was a lot about the software supply chain and what's going on there. What did you hear in terms of the appetite for organizations through the voice of the practitioner to say, you know what guys, we got to get going because there's going to be the hackers are they're here. >> I didn't hear much about that in the coverage 'cause we weren't in the hallways. But from reading the tea leaves and talking to the folks on the ground, I think there's an implied like there's an unlimited money from customers. So it's a very robust from the data infrastructure stack building we cover with the angel investor Kane you're seeing data infrastructure's going to be part of the solution here 'cause data and security go hand in hand. So everyone's got basically checkbook wide open everyone wants to have the answer. And we commented that the co-founder of Palo Alto you had on our coverage yesterday was saying that you know, there's no real platform, there's a lot of tools out there. People will buy anything. So there's still a huge appetite and spend in security but the answer's not going to more tool sprawling. It's going to more platform auto, something that enables automation, fix some of the underlying mechanisms involved and fix it fast. So to me I think it's going to be a robust monetary opportunity because of the demand on the business side. So I don't see that changing at all and I think it's going to accelerate. >> It's a great point in terms of the demand for the business side because as we know as we said yesterday, the next Log4j is out there. It's not a matter of if this happens again it's when, it's the extent, it's how frequent we know that. So organizations all the way up to the board have to be concerned about brand reputation. Nobody wants to be the next big headline in terms of breaches and customer data being given to hackers and hackers making all this money on that. That has to go all the way up to the board and there needs to be alignment between the board and the executives at the organization in terms of how they're going to deal with security, and now. This is not a conversation that can wait. Yeah, I mean I think the five C's we talked about yesterday the culture of companies, the cloud is an enabler, you've got clusters of servers and capabilities, Kubernetes clusters, you've got code and you've got all kinds of, you know, things going on there. Each one has elements that are at risk for hacking, right? So that to me is something that's super important. I think that's why the focus on security's different and important, but it's not going to fork the main event. So that's why I think the spin out was, spinout, or the new event is a good call by the CNCF. >> One of the things today that struck me they're talking a lot about software supply chain and that's been in the headlines for quite a while now. And a stat that was shared this morning during the keynote just blew my brains that there was a 742% increase in the software supply chain attacks occurring over the last three years. It's during Covid times, that is a massive increase. The threat landscape is just growing so amorphously but organizations need to help dial that down because their success and the health of the individuals and the end users is at risk. Well, Covid is an environment where everyone's kind of working at home. So there was some disruption to infrastructure. Also, when you have change like that, there's opportunities for hackers, they'll arbitrage that big time. But I think general the landscape is changing. There's no perimeter anymore. It's CloudNative, this is where it is and people who are moving from old IT to CloudNative, they're at risk. That's why there's tons of ransomware. That's why there's tons of risk. There's just hygiene, from hygiene to architecture and like Nick said from Palo Alto, the co-founder, there's not a lot of architecture in security. So yeah, people have bulked up their security teams but you're going to start to see much more holistic thinking around redoing security. I think that's the opportunity to propel CloudNative, and I think you'll see a lot more coming out of this. >> Did you hear any specific information on some of the CloudNative projects going on that really excite you in terms of these are the right people going after the right challenges to solve in the right direction? >> Well I saw the sessions and what jumped out to me at the sessions was it's a lot of extensions of what we heard at CUBECON and I think what they want to do is take out the big items and break 'em out in security. Kubescape was one we just covered. They want to get more sandbox type stuff into the security side that's very security focused but also plays well with CUBECON. So we'll hear more about how this plays out when we're in Amsterdam coming up in April for CUBECON to hear how that ecosystem, because I think it'll be kind of a relief to kind of decouple security 'cause that gives more focus to the stakeholders in CUBECON. There's a lot of issues going on there and you know service meshes and whatnot. So it's a lot of good stuff happening. >> A lot of good stuff happening. One of the things that'll be great about CUBECON is that we always get the voice of the customer. We get vendors coming on with the voice of the customer talking about and you know in that case how they're using Kubernetes to drive the business forward. But it'll be great to be able to pull in some of the security conversations that spin out of CloudNative Security CON to understand how those end users are embracing the technology. You brought up I think Nir Zuk from Palo Alto Networks, one of the themes there when Dave and I did their Ignite event in December was, of 22, was really consolidation. There are so many tools out there that organizations have to wrap their heads around and they need to be able to have the right enablement content which this event probably delivered to figure out how do we consolidate security tools effectively, efficiently in a way that helps dial down our risk profile because the risks just seem to keep growing. >> Yeah, and I love the technical nature of all that and I think this is going to be the continued focus. Chris Aniszczyk who's the CTO listed like E and BPF we covered with Liz Rice is one of the most three important points of the conference and it's just, it's very nerdy and that's what's needed. I mean it's technical. And again, there's no real standards bodies anymore. The old days developers I think are super important to be the arbiters here. And again, what I love about the CNCF is that they're developer focused and we heard developer first even in security. So you know, this is a sea change and I think, you know, developers' choice will be the standards bodies. >> Lisa: Yeah, yeah. >> They decide the future. >> Yeah. >> And I think having the sandboxing and bringing this out will hopefully accelerate more developer choice and self-service. >> You've been talking about kind of putting the developers in the driver's seat as really being the key decision makers for a while. Did you hear information over the last couple of days that validates that? >> Yeah, absolutely. It's clearly the fact that they did this was one. The other one is, is that engineering teams and dev teams and script teams, they're blending together. It's not just separate silos and the ones that are changing their team dynamics, again, back to the culture are winning. And I think this has to happen. Security has to be embedded everywhere in making it frictionless and to provide kind of the guardrail so developers don't slow down. And I think where security has become a drag or an anchor or a blocker has been just configuration of how the organization's handling it. So I think when people recognize that the developers are in charge and they're should be driving the application development you got to make sure that's secure. And so that's always going to be friction and I think whoever does it, whoever unlocks that for the developer to go faster will win. >> Right. Oh, that's what I'm sure magic to a developer's ear is the ability to go faster and be able to focus on co-development in a secure fashion. What are some of the things that you're excited about for CUBECON. Here we are in February, 2023 and CUBECON is just around the corner in April. What are some of the things that you're excited about based on the groundswell momentum that this first inaugural CloudNative Security CON is generating from a community, a culture perspective? >> I think this year's going to be very interesting 'cause we have an economic challenge globally. There's all kinds of geopolitical things happening. I think there's going to be very entrepreneurial activity this year more than ever. I think you're going to see a lot more innovative projects ideas hitting the table. I think it's going to be a lot more entrepreneurial just because the cycle we're in. And also I think the acceleration of mainstream deployments of out of the CNCF's main event CUBECON will happen. You'll see a lot more successes, scale, more clarity on where the security holes are or aren't. Where the benefits are. I think containers and microservices are continuing to surge. I think the Cloud scale hyperscale as Amazon, Azure, Google will be more aggressive. I think AI will be a big theme this year. I think you can see how data is going to infect some of the innovation thinking. I'm really excited about the data infrastructure because it powers a lot of things in the Cloud. So I think the Amazon Web Services, Azure next level gen clouds will impact what happens in the CloudNative foundation. >> Did you have any conversations yesterday or today with respect to AI and security? Was that a focus of anybody's? Talk to me about that. >> Well, I didn't hear any sessions on AI but we saw some demos on stage. But they're teasing out that this is an augmentation to their mission, right? So I think a lot of people are looking at AI as, again, like I always said there's the naysayers who think it's kind of a gimmick or nothing to see here, and then some are just going to blown away. I think the people who are alpha geeks and the industry connect the dots and understand that AI is going to be an accelerant to a lot of heavy lifting that was either manual, you know, hard to do things that was boring or muck as they say. I think that's going to be where you'll see the AI stories where it's going to accelerate either ways to make security better or make developers more confident and productive. >> Or both. >> Yeah. So definitely AI will be part of it. Yeah, definitely. One of the things too that I'm wondering if, you know, we talk about CloudNative and the goal of it, the importance of it. Do you think that this event, in terms of what we were able to see, obviously being remote the event going on in Seattle, us being here in Palo Alto and Boston and guests on from Seattle and Germany and all over, did you hear the really the validation for why CloudNative Security why CloudNative is important for organizations whether it's a bank or a hospital or a retailer? Is that validation clear and present? >> Yeah, absolutely. I think it was implied. I don't think there was like anyone's trying to debate that. I think this conference was more of it's assumed and they were really trying to push the ability to make security less defensive, more offensive and more accelerated into the solving the problems with the businesses that are out there. So clearly the CloudNative community understands where the security challenges are and where they're emerging. So having a dedicated event will help address that. And they've got great co-chairs too that put it together. So I think that's very positive. >> Yeah. Do you think, is it possible, I mean, like you said several times today so eloquently the industry's on the defense when it comes to security and the hackers are on the offense. Is it really possible to make that switch or obviously get some balances. As technology advances and industry gets to take advantage of that, so do the hackers, is that balance achievable? >> Absolutely. I mean, I think totally achievable. The question's going to be what's the environment going to be like? And I remember as context to understanding whether it's viable or not, is to look at, just go back 13 years ago, I remember in 2010 Amazon was viewed as an unsecure environment. Everyone's saying, "Oh, the cloud is not secure." And I remember interviewing Steve Schmidt at AWS and we discussed specifically how Amazon Cloud was being leveraged by hackers. They made it more complex for the hackers. And he said, "This is just the beginning." It's kind of like barbed wire on a fence. It's yeah, you're not going to climb it so people can get over it. And so since then what's happened is the Cloud has become more secure than on premises for a lot of either you know, personnel reasons, culture reasons, not updating, you know, from patches to just being insecure to be more insecure. So that to me means that the flip the script can be flipped. >> Yeah. And I think with CloudNative they can build in automation and code to solve some of these problems and make it more complex for the hacker. >> Lisa: Yes. >> And increase the cost. >> Yeah, exactly. Make it more complex. Increase the cost. That'll be in interesting journey to follow. So John, here we are early February, 2023 theCUBE starting out strong as always. What year are we in, 12? Year 12? >> 13th year >> 13! What's next for theCUBE? What's coming up that excites you? >> Well, we're going to do a lot more events. We got the theCUBE in studio that I call theCUBE Center as kind of internal code word, but like, this is more about getting the word out that we can cover events remotely as events are starting to change with hybrid, digital is going to be a big part of that. So I think you're going to see a lot more CUBE on location. We're going to do, still do theCUBE and have theCUBE cover events from the studio to get deeper perspective because we can then bring people in remote through our our studio team. We can bring our CUBE alumni in. We have a corpus of content and experts to bring to table. So I think the coverage will be increased. The expertise and data will be flowing through theCUBE and so Cube Center, CUBE CUBE Studio. >> Lisa: Love it. >> Will be a integral part of our coverage. >> I love that. And we have such great conversations with guests in person, but also virtually, digitally as well. We still get the voices of the practitioners and the customers and the vendors and the partner ecosystem really kind of lauded loud and clear through theCUBE megaphone as I would say. >> And of course getting the clips out there, getting the highlights. >> Yeah. >> Getting more stories. No stories too small for theCUBE. We can make it easy to get the best content. >> The best content. John, it's been fun covering CloudNative security CON with you with you. And Dave and our guests, thank you so much for the opportunity and looking forward to the next event. >> John: All right. We'll see you at Amsterdam. >> Yeah, I'll be there. We want to thank you so much for watching TheCUBES's two day coverage of CloudNative Security CON 23. We're live in Palo Alto. You are live wherever you are and we appreciate your time and your view of this event. For John Furrier, Dave Vellante, I'm Lisa Martin. Thanks for watching guys. We'll see you at the next show.

(upbeat music) >> Hey, everyone. Welcome back to theCUBE's day one coverage of Cloud Native SecurityCon 2023. This has been a great conversation that we've been able to be a part of today. Lisa Martin with John Furrier and Dave Vellante. Dave and John, I want to get your take on the conversations that we had today, starting with the keynote that we were able to see. What are your thoughts? We talked a lot about technology. We also talked a lot about people and culture. John, starting with you, what's the story here with this inaugural event? >> Well, first of all, there's two major threads. One is the breakout of a new event from CloudNativeCon/KubeCon, which is a very successful community and events that they do international and in North America. And that's not stopping. So that's going to be continuing to go great. This event is a breakout with an extreme focus on security and all things security around that ecosystem. And with extensions into the Linux Foundation. We heard Brian Behlendorf was on there from the Linux Foundation. So he was involved in Hyperledger. So not just Cloud Native, all things containers, Kubernetes, all things Linux Foundation as an open source. So, little bit more of a focus. So I like that piece of it. The other big thread on this story is what Dave and Yves were talking about on our panel we had earlier, which was the business model of security is real and that is absolutely happening. It's impacting business today. So you got this, let's build as fast as possible, let's retool, let's replatform, refactor and then the reality of the business imperative. To me, those are the two big high-order bits that are going on and that's the reality of this current situation. >> Dave, what are your top takeaways from today's day one inaugural coverage? >> Yeah, I would add a third leg of the stool to what John said and that's what we were talking about several times today about the security is a do-over. The Pat Gelsinger quote, from what was that, John, 2011, 2012? And that's right around the time that the cloud was hitting this steep part of the S-curve and do-over really has meant in looking back, leveraging cloud native tooling, and cloud native technologies, which are different than traditional security approaches because it has to take into account the unique characteristics of the cloud whether that's dynamic resource allocation, unlimited resources, microservices, containers. And while that has helped solve some problems it also brings new challenges. All these cloud native tools, securing this decentralized infrastructure that people are dealing with and really trying to relearn the security culture. And that's kind of where we are today. >> I think the other thing too that I had Dave is that was we get other guests on with a diverse opinion around foundational models with AI and machine learning. You're going to see a lot more things come in to accelerate the scale and automation piece of it. It is one thing that CloudNativeCon and KubeCon has shown us what the growth of cloud computing is is that containers Kubernetes and these new services are powering scale. And scale you're going to need to have automation and machine learning and AI will be a big part of that. So you start to see the new formation of stacks emerging. So foundational stacks is the machine learning and data apps are coming out. It's going to start to see more apps coming. So I think there's going to be so many new applications and services are going to emerge, and if you don't get your act together on the infrastructure side those apps will not be fully baked. >> And obviously that's a huge risk. Sorry, Dave, go ahead. >> No, that's okay. So there has to be hardware somewhere. You can't get away with no hardware. But increasingly the security architecture like everything else is, is software-defined and makes it a lot more flexible. And to the extent that practitioners and organizations can consolidate this myriad of tools that they have, that means they're going to have less trouble learning new skills, they're going to be able to spend more time focused and become more proficient on the tooling that is being applied. And you're seeing the same thing on the vendor side. You're seeing some of these large vendors, Palo Alto, certainly CrowdStrike and fundamental to their strategy is to pick off more and more and more of these areas in security and begin to consolidate them. And right now, that's a big theme amongst organizations. We know from the survey data that consolidating redundant vendors is the number one cost saving priority today. Along with, at a distant second, optimizing cloud costs, but consolidating redundant vendors there's nowhere where that's more prominent than in security. >> Dave, talk a little bit about that, you mentioned the practitioners and obviously this event bottoms up focused on the practitioners. It seems like they're really in the driver's seat now. With this being the inaugural Cloud Native SecurityCon, first time it's been pulled out of an elevated out of KubeCon as a focus, do you think this is about time that the practitioners are in the driver's seat? >> Well, they're certainly, I mean, we hear about all the tech layoffs. You're not laying off your top security pros and if you are, they're getting picked up very quickly. So I think from that standpoint, anybody who has deep security expertise is in the driver's seat. The problem is that driver's seat is pretty hairy and you got to have the stomach for it. I mean, these are technical heroes, if you will, on the front lines, literally saving the world from criminals and nation-states. And so yes, I think Lisa they have been in the driver's seat for a while, but it it takes a unique person to drive at those speeds. >> I mean, the thing too is that the cloud native world that we are living in comes from cloud computing. And if you look at this, what is a practitioner? There's multiple stakeholders that are being impacted and are vulnerable in the security front at many levels. You have application developers, you got IT market, you got security, infrastructure, and network and whatever. So all that old to new is happening. So if you look at IT, that market is massive. That's still not transformed yet to cloud. So you have companies out there literally fully exposed to ransomware. IT teams that are having practices that are antiquated and outdated. So security patching, I mean the blocking and tackling of the old securities, it's hard to even support that old environment. So in this transition from IT to cloud is changing everything. And so practitioners are impacted from the devs and the ones that get there faster and adopt the ways to make their business better, whether you call it modern technology and architectures, will be alive and hopefully thriving. So that's the challenge. And I think this security focus hits at the heart of the reality of business because like I said, they're under threats. >> I wanted to pick up too on, I thought Brian Behlendorf, he did a forward looking what could become the next problem that we really haven't addressed. He talked about generative AI, automating spearphishing and he flat out said the (indistinct) is not fixed. And so identity access management, again, a lot of different toolings. There's Microsoft, there's Okta, there's dozens of companies with different identity platforms that practitioners have to deal with. And then what he called free riders. So these are folks that go into the repos. They're open source repos, and they find vulnerabilities that developers aren't hopping on quickly. It's like, you remember Patch Tuesday. We still have Patch Tuesday. That meant Hacker Wednesday. It's kind of the same theme there going into these repos and finding areas where the practitioners, the developers aren't responding quickly enough. They just don't necessarily have the resources. And then regulations, public policy being out of alignment with what's really needed, saying, "Oh, you can't ship that fix outside of Germany." Or I'm just making this up, but outside of this region because of a law. And you could be as a developer personally liable for it. So again, while these practitioners are in the driver's seat, it's a hairy place to be. >> Dave, we didn't get the word supercloud in much on this event, did we? >> Well, I'm glad you brought that up because I think security is the big single, biggest challenge for supercloud, securing the supercloud with all the diversity of tooling across clouds and I think you brought something up in the first supercloud, John. You said, "Look, ultimately the cloud, the hyperscalers have to lean in. They are going to be the enablers of supercloud. They already are from an infrastructure standpoint, but they can solve this problem by working together. And I think there needs to be more industry collaboration. >> And I think the point there is that with security the trend will be, in my opinion, you'll see security being reborn in the cloud, around zero trust as structure, and move from an on-premise paradigm to fully cloud native. And you're seeing that in the network side, Dave, where people are going to each cloud and building stacks inside the clouds, hyperscaler clouds that are completely compatible end-to-end with on-premises. Not trying to force the cloud to be working with on-prem. They're completely refactoring as cloud native first. And again, that's developer first, that's data first, that's security first. So to me that's the tell sign. To me is if when you see that, that's good. >> And Lisa, I think the cultural conversation that you've brought into these discussions is super important because I've said many times, bad user behavior is going to trump good security every time. So that idea that the entire organization is responsible for security. You hear that all the time. Well, what does that mean? It doesn't mean I have to be a security expert, it just means I have to be smart. How many people actually use a VPN? >> So I think one of the things that I'm seeing with the cultural change is face-to-face problem solving is one, having remote teams is another. The skillset is big. And I think the culture of having these teams, Dave mentioned something about intramural sports, having the best people on the teams, from putting captains on the jersey of security folks is going to happen. I think you're going to see a lot more of that going on because there's so many areas to work on. You're going to start to see security embedded in all processes. >> Well, it needs to be and that level of shared responsibility is not trivial. That's across the organization. But they're also begs the question of the people problem. People are one of the biggest challenges with respect to security. Everyone has to be on board with this. It has to be coming from the top down, but also the bottom up at the same time. It's challenging to coordinate. >> Well, the training thing I think is going to solve itself in good time. And I think in the fullness of time, if I had to predict, you're going to see managed services being a big driver on the front end, and then as companies realize where their IP will be you'll see those managed service either be a core competency of their business and then still leverage. So I'm a big believer in managed services. So you're seeing Kubernetes, for instance, a lot of managed services. You'll start to see more, get the ball going, get that rolling, then build. So Dave mentioned bottoms up, middle out, that's how transformation happens. So I think managed services will win from here, but ultimately the business model stuff is so critical. >> I'm glad you brought up managed services and I want to add to that managed security service providers, because I saw a stat last year, 50% of organizations in the US don't even have a security operations team. So managed security service providers MSSPs are going to fill the gap, especially for small and midsize companies and for those larger companies that just need to augment and compliment their existing staff. And so those practitioners that we've been talking about, those really hardcore pros, they're going to go into these companies, some large, the big four, all have them. Smaller companies like Arctic Wolf are going to, I think, really play a key role in this decade. >> I want to get your opinion Dave on what you're hoping to see from this event as we've talked about the first inaugural standalone big focus here on security as a standalone. Obviously, it's a huge challenge. What are you hoping for this event to get groundswell from the community? What are you hoping to hear and see as we wrap up day one and go into day two? >> I always say events like this they're about educating, aspiring to action. And so the practitioners that are at this event I think, I used to say they're the technical heroes. So we know there's going to be another Log4j or a another SolarWinds. It's coming. And my hope is that when that happens, it's not an if, it's a when, that the industry, these practitioners are able to respond in a way that's safe and fast and agile and they're able to keep us protected, number one and number two, that they can actually figure out what happened in the long tail of still trying to clean it up is compressed. That's my hope or maybe it's a dream. >> I think day two tomorrow you're going to hear more supply chain, security. You're going to start to see them focus on sessions that target areas if within the CNCF KubeCon + CloudNativeCon area that need support around containers, clusters, around Kubernetes cluster. You're going to start to see them laser focus on cleaning up the house, if you will, if you can call it cleaning up or fixing what needs to get fixed or solved what needs to get solved on the cloud native front. That's going to be urgent. And again, supply chain software as Dave mentioned, free riders too, just using open source. So I think you'll see open source continue to grow, but there'll be an emphasis on verification and certification. And Docker has done a great job with that. You've seen what they've done with their business model over hundreds of millions of dollars in revenue from a pivot. Catch a few years earlier because they verify. So I think we're going to be in this verification blue check mark of code era, of code and software. Super important bill of materials. They call SBOMs, software bill of materials. People want to know what's in their software and that's going to be, again, another opportunity for machine learning and other things. So I'm optimistic that this is going to be a good focus. >> Good. I like that. I think that's one of the things thematically that we've heard today is optimism about what this community can generate in terms of today's point. The next Log4j is coming. We know it's not if, it's when, and all organizations need to be ready to Dave's point to act quickly with agility to dial down and not become the next headline. Nobody wants to be that. Guys, it's been fun working with you on this day one event. Looking forward to day two. Lisa Martin for Dave Vellante and John Furrier. You're watching theCUBE's day one coverage of Cloud Native SecurityCon '23. We'll see you tomorrow. (upbeat music)

(lively music) >> Welcome back to our coverage of Cloud Native Security Con. I'm Dave Vellante, here in our Boston studio. We're connecting today, throughout the day, with Palo Alto on the ground in Seattle. And right now I'm here with Michael Foster with Red Hat. He's on the ground in Seattle. We're going to discuss the trends and containers and security and everything that's going on at the show in Seattle. Michael, good to see you, thanks for coming on. >> Good to see you, thanks for having me on. >> Lot of market momentum for Red Hat. The IBM earnings call the other day, announced OpenShift is a billion-dollar ARR. So it's quite a milestone, and it's not often, you know. It's hard enough to become a billion-dollar software company and then to have actually a billion-dollar product alongside. So congratulations on that. And let's start with the event. What's the buzz at the event? People talking about shift left, obviously supply chain security is a big topic. We've heard a little bit about or quite a bit about AI. What are you hearing on the ground? >> Yeah, so the last event I was at that I got to see you at was three months ago, with CubeCon and the talk was supply chain security. Nothing has really changed on that front, although I do think that the conversation, let's say with the tech companies versus what customers are actually looking at, is slightly different just based on the market. And, like you said, thank you for the shout-out to a billion-dollar OpenShift, and ACS is certainly excited to be part of that. We are seeing more of a consolidation, I think, especially in security. The money's still flowing into security, but people want to know what they're running. We've allowed, had some tremendous growth in the last couple years and now it's okay. Let's get a hold of the containers, the clusters that we're running, let's make sure everything's configured. They want to start implementing policies effectively and really get a feel for what's going on across all their workloads, especially with the bigger companies. I think bigger companies allow some flexibility in the security applications that they can deploy. They can have different groups that manage different ones, but in the mid to low market, you're seeing a lot of consolidation, a lot of companies that want basically one security tool to manage them all, so to speak. And I think that the features need to somewhat accommodate that. We talk supply chain, I think most people continue to care about network security, vulnerability management, shifting left and enabling developers. That's the general trend I see. Still really need to get some hands on demos and see some people that I haven't seen in a while. >> So a couple things on, 'cause, I mean, we talk about the macroeconomic climate all the time. We do a lot of survey data with our partners at ETR, and their recent data shows that in terms of cost savings, for those who are actually cutting their budgets, they're looking to consolidate redundant vendors. So, that's one form of consolidation. The other theme, of course, is there's so many tools out in the security market that consolidating tools is something that can help simplify, but then at the same time, you see opportunities open up, like IOT security. And so, you have companies that are starting up to just do that. So, there's like these countervailing trends. I often wonder, Michael, will this ever end? It's like the universe growing and tooling, what are your thoughts? >> I mean, I completely agree. It's hard to balance trying to grow the company in a time like this, at the same time while trying to secure it all, right? So you're seeing the consolidation but some of these applications and platforms need to make some promises to say, "Hey, we're going to move into this space." Right, so when you have like Red Hat who wants to come out with edge devices and help manage the IOT devices, well then, you have a security platform that can help you do that, that's built in. Then the messaging's easy. When you're trying to do that across different cloud providers and move into IOT, it becomes a little bit more challenging. And so I think that, and don't take my word for this, some of those IOT startups, you might see some purchasing in the next couple years in order to facilitate those cloud platforms to be able to expand into that area. To me it makes sense, but I don't want to hypothesize too much from the start. >> But I do, we just did our predictions post and as a security we put up the chart of candidates, and there's like dozens, and dozens, and dozens. Some that are very well funded, but I mean, you've seen some down, I mean, down rounds everywhere, but these many companies have raised over a billion dollars and it's like uh-oh, okay, so they're probably okay, maybe. But a lot of smaller firms, I mean there's just, there's too many tools in the marketplace, but it seems like there is misalignment there, you know, kind of a mismatch between, you know, what customers would like to have happen and what actually happens in the marketplace. And that just underscores, I think, the complexities in security. So I guess my question is, you know, how do you look at Cloud Native Security, and what's different from traditional security approaches? >> Okay, I mean, that's a great question, and it's something that we've been talking to customers for the last five years about. And, really, it's just a change in mindset. Containers are supposed to unleash developer speed, and if you don't have a security tool to help do that, then you're basically going to inhibit developers in some form or another. I think managing that, while also giving your security teams the ability to tell the message of we are being more secure. You know, we're limiting vulnerabilities in our cluster. We are seeing progress because containers, you know, have a shorter life cycle and there is security and speed. Having that conversation with the C-suites is a little different, especially when how they might be used to virtual machines and managing it through that. I mean, if it works, it works from a developer's standpoint. You're not taking advantage of those containers and the developer's speed, so that's the difference. Now doing that and then first challenge is making that pitch. The second challenge is making that pitch to then scale it, so you can get onboard your developers and get your containers up and running, but then as you bring in new groups, as you move over to Kubernetes or you get into more container workloads, how do you onboard your teams? How do you scale? And I tend to see a general trend of a big investment needed for about two years to make that container shift. And then the security tools come in and really blossom because once that core separation of responsibilities happens in the organization, then the security tools are able to accelerate the developer workflow and not inhibit it. >> You know, I'm glad you mentioned, you know, separation of responsibilities. We go to a lot of shows, as you know, with theCUBE, and many of them are cloud shows. And in the one hand, Cloud has, you know, obviously made the world, you know, more interesting and better in so many different ways and even security, but it's like new layers are forming. You got the cloud, you got the shared responsibility model, so the cloud is like the first line of defense. And then you got the CISO who is relying heavily on devs to, you know, the whole shift left thing. So we're asking developers to do a lot and then you're kind of behind them. I guess you have audit is like the last line of defense, but my question to you is how can software developers really ensure that cloud native tools that they're using are secure? What steps can they take to improve security and specifically what's Red Hat doing in that area? >> Yeah, well I think there's, I would actually move away from that being the developer responsibility. I think the job is the operators' and the security people. The tools to give them the ability to see. The vulnerabilities they're introducing. Let's say signing their images, actually verifying that the images that's thrown in the cloud, are the ones that they built, that can all be done and it can be done open source. So we have a DevSecOps validated pattern that Red Hat's pushed out, and it's all open source tools in the cloud native space. And you can sign your builds and verify them at runtime and make sure that you're doing that all for free as one option. But in general, I would say that the hope is that you give the developer the information to make responsible choices and that there's a dialogue between your security and operations and developer teams but security, we should not be pushing that on developer. And so I think with ACS and our tool, the goal is to get in and say, "Let's set some reasonable policies, have a conversation, let's get a security liaison." Let's say in the developer team so that we can make some changes over time. And the more we can automate that and the more we can build and have that conversation, the better that you'll, I don't say the more security clusters but I think that the more you're on your path of securing your environment. >> How much talk is there at the event about kind of recent high profile incidents? We heard, you know, Log4j, of course, was mentioned in the Keynote. Somebody, you know, I think yelled out from the audience, "We're still dealing with that." But when you think about these, you know, incidents when looking back, what lessons do you think we've learned from these events? >> Oh, I mean, I think that I would say, if you have an approach where you're managing your containers, managing the age and using containers to accelerate, so let's say no images that are older than 90 days, for example, you're going to avoid a lot of these issues. And so I think people that are still dealing with that aspect haven't set up the proper, let's say, disclosure between teams and update strategy and so on. So I don't want to, I think the Log4j, if it's still around, you know, something's missing there but in general you want to be able to respond quickly and to do that and need the tools and policies to be able to tell people how to fix that issue. I mean, the Log4j fix was seven days after, so your developers should have been well aware of that. Your security team should have been sending the messages out. And I remember even fielding all the calls, all the fires that we had to put out when that happened. But yeah. >> I thought Brian Behlendorf's, you know, talk this morning was interesting 'cause he was making an attempt to say, "Hey, here's some things that you might not be thinking about that are likely to occur." And I wonder if you could, you know, comment on them and give us your thoughts as to how the industry generally, maybe Red Hat specifically, are thinking about dealing with them. He mentioned ChatGPT or other GPT to automate Spear phishing. He said the identity problem is still not fixed. Then he talked about free riders sniffing repos essentially for known vulnerabilities that are slow to fix. He talked about regulations that might restrict shipping code. So these are things that, you know, essentially, we can, they're on the radar, but you know, we're kind of putting out, you know, yesterday's fire. What are your thoughts on those sort of potential issues that we're facing and how are you guys thinking about it? >> Yeah, that's a great question, and I think it's twofold. One, it's brought up in front of a lot of security leaders in the space for them to be aware of it because security, it's a constant battle, constant war that's being fought. ChatGPT lowers the barrier of entry for a lot of them, say, would-be hackers or people like that to understand systems and create, let's say, simple manifests to leverage Kubernetes or leverage a misconfiguration. So as the barrier drops, we as a security team in security, let's say group organization, need to be able to respond and have our own tools to be able to combat that, and we do. So a lot of it is just making sure that we shore up our barriers and that people are aware of these threats. The harder part I think is educating the public and that's why you tend to see maybe the supply chain trend be a little bit ahead of the implementation. I think they're still, for example, like S-bombs and signing an attestation. I think that's still, you know, a year, two years, away from becoming, let's say commonplace, especially in something like a production environment. Again, so, you know, stay bleeding edge, and then make sure that you're aware of these issues and we'll be constantly coming to these calls and filling you in on what we're doing and make sure that we're up to speed. >> Yeah, so I'm hearing from folks like yourself that the, you know, you think of the future of Cloud Native Security. We're going to see continued emphasis on, you know, better integration of security into the DevSecOps. You're pointing out it's really, you know, the ops piece, that runtime that we really need to shore up. You can't just put it on the shoulders of the devs. And, you know, using security focused tools and best practices. Of course you hear a lot about that and the continued drive toward automation. My question is, you know, automation, machine learning, how, where are we in that maturity cycle? How much of that is being adopted? Sometimes folks are, you know, they embrace automation but it brings, you know, unknown, unintended consequences. Are folks embracing that heavily? Are there risks associated around that, or are we kind of through that knothole in your view? >> Yeah, that's a great question. I would compare it to something like a smart home. You know, we sort of hit a wall. You can automate so much, but it has to actually be useful to your teams. So when we're going and deploying ACS and using a cloud service, like one, you know, you want something that's a service that you can easily set up. And then the other thing is you want to start in inform mode. So you can't just automate everything, even if you're doing runtime enforcement, you need to make sure that's very, very targeted to exactly what you want and then you have to be checking it because people start new workloads and people get onboarded every week or month. So it's finding that balance between policies where you can inform the developer and the operations teams and that they give them the information to act. And that worst case you can step in as a security team to stop it, you know, during the onboarding of our ACS cloud service. We have an early access program and I get on-calls, and it's not even security team, it's the operations team. It starts with the security product, you know, and sometimes it's just, "Hey, how do I, you know, set this policy so my developers will find this vulnerability like a Log4Shell and I just want to send 'em an email, right?" And these are, you know, they have the tools and they can do that. And so it's nice to see the operations take on some security. They can automate it because maybe you have a NetSec security team that doesn't know Kubernetes or containers as well. So that shared responsibility is really useful. And then just again, making that automation targeted, even though runtime enforcement is a constant thing that we talk about, the amount that we see it in the wild where people are properly setting up admission controllers and it's acting. It's, again, very targeted. Databases, cubits x, things that are basically we all know is a no-go in production. >> Thank you for that. My last question, I want to go to the, you know, the hardest part and 'cause you're talking to customers all the time and you guys are working on the hardest problems in the world. What is the hardest aspect of securing, I'm going to come back to the software supply chain, hardest aspect of securing the software supply chain from the perspective of a security pro, software engineer, developer, DevSecOps Pro, and then this part b of that is, is how are you attacking that specifically as Red Hat? >> Sure, so as a developer, it's managing vulnerabilities with updates. As an operations team, it's keeping all the cluster, because you have a bunch of different teams working in the same environment, let's say, from a security team. It's getting people to listen to you because there are a lot of things that need to be secured. And just communicating that and getting it actionable data to the people to make the decisions as hard from a C-suite. It's getting the buy-in because it's really hard to justify the dollars and cents of security when security is constantly having to have these conversations with developers. So for ACS, you know, we want to be able to give the developer those tools. We also want to build the dashboards and reporting so that people can see their vulnerabilities drop down over time. And also that they're able to respond to it quickly because really that's where the dollars and cents are made in the product. It's that a Log4Shell comes out. You get immediately notified when the feeds are updated and you have a policy in action that you can respond to it. So I can go to my CISOs and say, "Hey look, we're limiting vulnerabilities." And when this came out, the developers stopped it in production and we were able to update it with the next release. Right, like that's your bread and butter. That's the story that you want to tell. Again, it's a harder story to tell, but it's easy when you have the information to be able to justify the money that you're spending on your security tools. Hopefully that answered your question. >> It does. That was awesome. I mean, you got data, you got communication, you got the people, obviously there's skillsets, you have of course, tooling and technology is a big part of that. Michael, really appreciate you coming on the program, sharing what's happening on the ground in Seattle and can't wait to have you back. >> Yeah. Awesome. Thanks again for having me. >> Yeah, our pleasure. All right. Thanks for watching our coverage of the Cloud Native Security Con. I'm Dave Vellante. I'm in our Boston studio. We're connecting to Palo Alto. We're connecting on the ground in Seattle. Keep it right there for more coverage. Be right back. (lively music)

(upbeat music) >> Hello everyone, welcome to this CUBE Showcase, accelerating business transformation with VMware Cloud on AWS. It's a solution innovation conversation with two great guests, Fred Wurden, VP of Commercial Services at AWS and Narayan Bharadwaj, who's the VP and General Manager of Cloud Solutions at VMware. Gentlemen, thanks for joining me on the showcase. >> Great to be here. >> Great. Thanks for having us on. It's a great topic. >> We've been covering this VMware cloud on AWS since the launch going back and it's been amazing to watch the evolution from people saying, Oh, it's the worst thing I've ever seen. What's this mean? And the press were not really on board with the vision, but as it played out as you guys had announced together, it did work out great for VMware. It did work out great for AWS and it continues two years later and I want to just get an update from you guys on where you guys see this has been going. I'll see multiple years. Where is the evolution of the solution as we are right now coming off VMware explorer just recently and going in to re:Invent, which is only a couple weeks away Feels like tomorrow. But as we prepare, a lot going on. Where are we with the evolution of the solution? >> I mean, first thing I want to say is October 2016 was a seminal moment in the history of IT. When Pat Gelsinger and Andy Jassy came together to announce this. And I think John, you were there at the time I was there. It was a great, great moment. We launched the solution in 2017 year after that at VMworld, back when we called it VMworld. I think we have gone from strength to strength. One of the things that has really mattered to us is we've learned from AWS also in the processes, this notion of working backwards. So we really, really focused on customer feedback as we built a service offering now five years old. Pretty remarkable journey. In the first years we tried to get across all the regions, that was a big focus because there was so much demand for it. In the second year, we started going really on enterprise great features. We invented this pretty awesome feature called Stretched Clusters, where you could stretch a vSphere cluster using vSAN and NSX-T across to AZs in the same region. Pretty phenomenal four nines of availability that applications started to get with that particular feature. And we kept moving forward, all kinds of integration with AWS Direct Connect, Transit Gateways with our own advanced networking capabilities. Along the way, Disaster Recovery, we punched out two new services just focused on that. And then more recently we launched our Outposts partnership. We were up on stage at re:Invent, again, with Pat and Andy announcing AWS Outposts and the VMware flavor of that, VMware Cloud and AWS Outposts. I think it's been significant growth in our federal sector as well with our federal and high certification more recently. So all in all, we are super excited. We're five years old. The customer momentum is really, really strong and we are scaling the service massively across all geos and industries. >> That's great, great update. And I think one of the things that you mentioned was how the advantages you guys got from that relationship. And this has been the theme for AWS, man, since I can remember from day one, Fred. You guys do the heavy lifting as you always say for the customers. Here, VMware comes on board. Takes advantage of the AWS and just doesn't miss a beat. Continues to move their workloads that everyone's using, vSphere, and these are big workloads on AWS. What's the AWS perspective on this? How do you see it? >> Yeah, it's pretty fascinating to watch how fast customers can actually transform and move when you take the skill set that they're familiar with and the advanced capabilities that they've been using on-prem and then overlay it on top of the AWS infrastructure that's evolving quickly and building out new hardware and new instances we'll talk about. But that combined experience between both of us on a jointly engineered solution to bring the best security and the best features that really matter for those workloads drive a lot of efficiency and speed for the customers. So it's been well received and the partnership is stronger than ever from an engineering standpoint, from a business standpoint. And obviously it's been very interesting to look at just how we stay day one in terms of looking at new features and work and responding to what customers want. So pretty excited about just seeing the transformation and the speed that which customers can move to while at VMC. >> That's a great value proposition. We've been talking about that in context to anyone building on top of the cloud. They can have their own supercloud, as we call it, if you take advantage of all the CapEx and investment Amazon's made and AWS has made and continues to make in performance IaaS and PaaS, all great stuff. I have to ask you guys both as you guys see this going to the next level, what are some of the differentiations you see around the service compared to other options in the market? What makes it different? What's the combination? You mentioned jointly engineered. What are some of the key differentiators of the service compared to others? >> Yeah. I think one of the key things Fred talked about is this jointly engineered notion. Right from day one we were the early adopters of the AWS Nitro platform. The reinvention of EC2 back five years ago. And so we have been having a very, very strong engineering partnership at that level. I think from a VMware customer standpoint, you get the full software-defined data center, compute storage networking on EC2, bare metal across all regions. You can scale that elastically up and down. It's pretty phenomenal just having that consistency globally on AWS EC2 global regions. Now the other thing that's a real differentiator for us, what customers tell us about is this whole notion of a managed service. And this was somewhat new to VMware. But we took away the pain of this undifferentiated heavy lifting where customers had to provision rack stack hardware, configure the software on top, and then upgrade the software and the security patches on top. So we took away all of that pain as customers transitioned to VMware cloud in AWS. In fact, my favorite story from last year when we were all going through the Log4j debacle. Industry was just going through that. Favorite proof point from customers was before they could even race this issue to us, we sent them a notification saying, we already patched all of your systems, no action from you. The customers were super thrilled. I mean, these are large banks. Many other customers around the world were super thrilled they had to take no action, but a pretty incredible industry challenge that we were all facing. >> Narayan, that's a great point. The whole managed service piece brings up the security. You kind of teasing at it, but there's always vulnerabilities that emerge when you are doing complex logic. And as you grow your solutions, there's more bits. Fred, we were commenting before we came on camera more bits than ever before and at the physics layer too, as well as the software. So you never know when there's going to be a zero-day vulnerability out there. It happens. We saw one with Fortinet this week. This came out of the woodwork. But moving fast on those patches, it's huge. This brings up the whole support angle. I wanted to ask you about how you guys are doing that as well, because to me, we see the value when we talk to customers on theCUBE about this. It was a real easy understanding of what the cloud means to them with VMware now with the AWS. But the question that comes up that we want to get more clarity on is how do you guys handle support together? >> Well, what's interesting about this is that it's done mutually. We have dedicated support teams on both sides that work together pretty seamlessly to make sure that whether there's a issue at any layer, including all the way up into the app layer, as you think about some of the other workloads like SAP, we'll go end-to-end and make sure that we support the customer regardless of where the particular issue might be for them. And on top of that, we look at where we're improving reliability in as a first order of principle between both companies. So from availability and reliability standpoint, it's top of mind and no matter where the particular item might land, we're going to go help the customer resolve that. It works really well. >> On the VMware side, what's been the feedback there? What are some of the updates? >> Yeah, I think, look, I mean, VMware owns and operates the service, but we work phenomenal backend relationship with AWS. Customers call VMware for the service or any issues. And then we have a awesome relationship with AWS on the backend for support issues or any hardware issues. The key management that we jointly do. All of the hard problems that customers don't have to worry about. I think on the front end, we also have a really good group of solution architects across the companies that help to really explain the solution, do complex things like cloud migration, which is much, much easier with the VMware Cloud in AWS. We're presenting that easy button to the public cloud in many ways. And so we have a whole technical audience across the two companies that are working with customers every single day. >> You had mentioned, I've got list here of some of the innovations. You mentioned the stretch clustering, getting the geos working, advanced network, Disaster Recovery, FedRAMP, public sector certifications, Outposts. All good, you guys are checking the boxes every year. You got a good accomplishments list there on the VMware AWS side here in this relationship. The question that I'm interested in is what's next? What recent innovations are you doing? Are you making investments in? What's on the list this year? What items will be next year? How do you see the new things, the list of accomplishments? People want to know what's next. They don't want to see stagnant growth here. They want to see more action as cloud continues to scale and modern applications cloud native. You're seeing more and more containers, more and more CI/CD pipelining with modern apps, put more pressure on the system. What's new? What's the new innovations? >> Absolutely. And I think as a five year old service offering, innovation is top of mind for us every single day. So just to call out a few recent innovations that we announced in San Francisco at VMware Explore. First of all, our new platform i4i.metal. It's isolate based. It's pretty awesome. It's the latest and greatest, all the speeds and feeds that we would expect from VMware and AWS at this point in our relationship. We announced two different storage options. This notion of working from customer feedback, allowing customers even more price reductions, really take off that storage and park it externally and separate that from compute. So two different storage offerings there. One is with AWS FSx with NetApp ONTAP, which brings in our NetApp partnership as well into the equation and really get that NetApp based really excited about this offering as well. And the second storage offering called VMware Cloud Flex Storage. VMware's own managed storage offering. Beyond that, we have done a lot of other innovations as well. I really wanted to talk about VMware Cloud Flex Compute where previously customers could only scale by hosts and a host is 36 to 48 cores, give or take. But with VMware Cloud Flex Compute, we are now allowing this notion of a resource defined compute model where customers can just get exactly the vCPU memory and storage that maps to the applications, however small they might be. So this notion of granularity is really a big innovation that we are launching in the market this year. And then last but not least, top of ransomware. Of course it's a hot topic in the industry. We are seeing many, many customers ask for this. We are happy to announce a new ransomware recovery with our VMware Cloud DR solution. A lot of innovation there and the way we are able to do machine learning and make sure the workloads that are covered from snapshots and backups are actually safe to use. So there's a lot of differentiation on that front as well. A lot of networking innovations with Project Northstar. Our ability to have layer four through layer seven, new SaaS services in that area as well. Keep in mind that the service already supports managed Kubernetes for containers. It's built in to the same clusters that have virtual machines. And so this notion of a single service with a great TCO for VMs and containers is sort at the heart of our (faintly speaking). >> The networking side certainly is a hot area to keep innovating on. Every year it's the same, same conversation, get better faster, networking more options there. The Flex Compute is interesting. If you don't mind me getting a quick clarification, could you explain the resource-defined versus hardware-defined? Because this is what we had saw at Explore coming out, that notion of resource-defined versus hardware-defined. What does that mean? >> Yeah, I mean I think we have been super successful in this hardware-defined notion. We we're scaling by the hardware unit that we present as software-defined data centers. And so that's been super successful. But customers wanted more, especially customers in different parts of the world wanted to start even smaller and grow even more incrementally. Lower the cost even more. And so this is the part where resource-defined starts to be very, very interesting as a way to think about, here's my bag of resources exactly based on what the customers request before fiber machines, five containers. It's size exactly for that. And then as utilization grows, we elastically behind the scenes, we're able to grow it through policies. So that's a whole different dimension. That's a whole different service offering that adds value and customers are comfortable. They can go from one to the other. They can go back to that host based model if they so choose to. And there's a jump off point across these two different economic models. >> It's cloud flexibility right there. I like the name. Fred, let's get into some of the examples of customers, if you don't mind, let's get into some of the, we have some time. I want to unpack a little bit of what's going on with the customer deployments. One of the things we've heard again on theCUBE is from customers is they like the clarity of the relationship, they love the cloud positioning of it. And then what happens is they lift and shift the workloads and it's like feels great. It's just like we're running VMware on AWS and then they start consuming higher level services. That adoption next level happens and because it's in the cloud. So can you guys take us through some recent examples of customer wins or deployments where they're using VMware cloud on AWS on getting started and then how do they progress once they're there? How does it evolve? Can you just walk us through a couple use cases? >> Sure. Well, there's a couple. One, it's pretty interesting that like you said, as there's more and more bits, you need better and better hardware and networking. And we're super excited about the i4 and the capabilities there in terms of doubling and or tripling what we're doing around lower variability on latency and just improving all the speeds. But what customers are doing with it, like the college in New Jersey, they're accelerating their deployment on onboarding over like 7,400 students over a six to eight month period. And they've really realized a ton of savings. But what's interesting is where and how they can actually grow onto additional native services too. So connectivity to any other services is available as they start to move and migrate into this. The options there obviously are tied to all the innovation that we have across any services, whether it's containerized and with what they're doing with Tanzu or with any other container and or services within AWS. So there's some pretty interesting scenarios where that data and or the processing, which is moved quickly with full compliance, whether it's in like healthcare or regulatory business is allowed to then consume and use things, for example, with Textract or any other really cool service that has monthly and quarterly innovations. So there's things that you just could not do before that are coming out and saving customers money and building innovative applications on top of their current app base in a rapid fashion. So pretty excited about it. There's a lot of examples. I think I probably don't have time to go into too many here. But that's actually the best part is listening to customers and seeing how many net new services and new applications are they actually building on top of this platform. >> Narayan, what's your perspective from the VMware side? 'Cause you guys have now a lot of headroom to offer customers with Amazon's higher level services and or whatever's homegrown where it's being rolled out 'cause you now have a lot of hybrid too. So what's your take on what's happening in with customers? >> I mean, it's been phenomenal. The customer adoption of this and banks and many other highly sensitive verticals are running production-grade applications, tier one applications on the service over the last five years. And so I have a couple of really good examples. S&P Global is one of my favorite examples. Large bank, they merge with IHS Markit, big conglomeration now. Both customers were using VMware Cloud and AWS in different ways. And with the use case, one of their use cases was how do I just respond to these global opportunities without having to invest in physical data centers? And then how do I migrate and consolidate all my data centers across the global, which there were many. And so one specific example for this company was how they migrated 1000 workloads to VMware Cloud and AWS in just six weeks. Pretty phenomenal if you think about everything that goes into a cloud migration process, people process technology. And the beauty of the technology going from VMware point A to VMware point B. The lowest cost, lowest risk approach to adopting VMware Cloud and AWS. So that's one of my favorite examples. There are many other examples across other verticals that we continue to see. The good thing is we are seeing rapid expansion across the globe, but constantly entering new markets with a limited number of regions and progressing our roadmap. >> It's great to see. I mean, the data center migrations go from months, many, many months to weeks. It's interesting to see some of those success stories. Congratulations. >> One of the other interesting fascinating benefits is the sustainability improvement in terms of being green. So the efficiency gains that we have both in current generation and new generation processors and everything that we're doing to make sure that when a customer can be elastic, they're also saving power, which is really critical in a lot of regions worldwide at this point in time. They're seeing those benefits. If you're running really inefficiently in your own data center, that is not a great use of power. So the actual calculators and the benefits to these workloads are pretty phenomenal just in being more green, which I like. We just all need to do our part there and this is a big part of it here. >> It's a huge point about the sustainability. Fred, I'm glad you called that out. The other one I would say is supply chain issue is another one. You see that constraints. I can't buy hardware. And the third one is really obvious, but no one really talks about it. It's security. I mean, I remember interviewing Steven Schmidt with that AWS and many years ago, this is like 2013 and at that time people were saying, the cloud's not secure. And he's like, listen, it's more secure in the cloud on-premise. And if you look at the security breaches, it's all about the on-premise data center vulnerabilities, not so much hardware. So there's a lot, the stay current on the isolation there is hard. So I think the security and supply chain, Fred, is another one. Do you agree? >> I absolutely agree. It's hard to manage supply chain nowadays. We put a lot of effort into that and I think we have a great ability to forecast and make sure that we can lean in and have the resources that are available and run them more efficiently. And then like you said on the security point, security is job one. It is the only P1. And if you think of how we build our infrastructure from Nitro all the way up and how we respond and work with our partners and our customers, there's nothing more important. >> And Narayan, your point earlier about the managed service patching and being on top of things is really going to get better. All right, final question. I really want to thank you for your time on this showcase. It's really been a great conversation. Fred, you had made a comment earlier. I want to end with a curve ball and put you eyes on the spot. We're talking about a new modern shift. We're seeing another inflection point. We've been documenting it. It's almost like cloud hitting another inflection point with application and open source growth significantly at the app layer. Continue to put a lot of pressure and innovation in the infrastructure side. So the question is for you guys each to answer is, what's the same and what's different in today's market? So it's like we want more of the same here, but also things have changed radically and better here. What's changed for the better and what's still the same thing hanging around that people are focused on? Can you share your perspective? >> I'll tackle it. Businesses are complex and they're often unique, that's the same. What's changed is how fast you can innovate. The ability to combine managed services and new innovative services and build new applications is so much faster today. Leveraging world class hardware that you don't have to worry about, that's elastic. You could not do that even five, 10 years ago to the degree you can today, especially with innovation. So innovation is accelerating at a rate that most people can't even comprehend and understand the set of services that are available to them. It's really fascinating to see what a one pizza team of engineers can go actually develop in a week. It is phenomenal. So super excited about this space and it's only going to continue to accelerate that. That's my take, Narayan. >> You got a lot of platform to compete on. With Amazon, you got a lot to build on. Narayan, your side. What's your answer to that question? >> I think we are seeing a lot of innovation with new applications that customers are constantly (faintly speaking). I think what we see is this whole notion of how do you go from desktop to production to the secure supply chain and how can we truly build on the agility that developers desire and build all the security and the pipelines to energize that production quickly and efficiently. I think we are seeing, we are at the very start of that sort of journey. Of course, we have invested in Kubernetes, the means to an end, but we're so much more beyond that's happening in industry and I think we're at the very, very beginning of this transformations, enterprise transformation that many of our customers are going through and we are inherently part of it. >> Well, gentlemen, I really appreciate that we're seeing the same thing. It's more the same here on solving these complexities with distractions, whether it's higher level services with large scale infrastructure. At your fingertips, infrastructure as code, infrastructure to be provisioned, serverless, all the good stuff happen and Fred with AWS on your side. And we're seeing customers resonate with this idea of being an operator again, being a cloud operator and developer. So the developer ops is kind of, DevOps is changing too. So all for the better. Thank you for spending the time and we're seeing again that traction with the VMware customer base and AWS getting along great together. So thanks for sharing your perspectives. >> We appreciate it. Thank you so much. >> Thank you John. >> This is theCUBE and AWS VMware showcase accelerating business transformation, VMware Cloud on AWS. Jointly engineered solution bringing innovation to the VMware customer base, going to the cloud and beyond. I'm John Furrier, your host. Thanks for watching. (gentle music)

(intro music) >> Hi everybody. Dave Vellante, back with Day Two coverage, we're live at the ARIA Hotel in Las Vegas for fal.con '22. Several thousand people here today. The keynote was, it was a little light. I think people were out late last night, but the keynote was outstanding and it's still going on. We had to break early because we have to strike early today, but we're really excited to have Stephan Goldberg here, Vice President of Technology Alliances at Claroty. And we're going to talk about an extremely important topic, which is the internet of things, the edge, we talk about it a lot. We haven't covered securing the edge here at theCUBE this week. And so Stephan really excited to have you on. >> Thank you for having me. >> You're very welcome. Tell us more about Claroty, C-L-A-R-O-T-Y, a very interesting spelling, but what's it all about? >> Claroty is cybersecurity company that specializes in cyber physical systems, also known as operational technology systems and the extended internet of things. The difference between the traditional IoT and what what everyone calls an IoT in the cyber physical system is that an IoT device has anything connected on the network that traditionally cannot carry an agent, a security camera, a card reader. A cyber physical system is a system that has influence and operates in the physical world but is controlled from the cyberspace. An example would be a controller, a turbine, a robotic arm, or an MRI machine. >> Yeah, so those are really high-end systems, run, are looked after by engineers, not necessarily consumers. So what's what's happening in that world? I mean, we've talked a lot on theCUBE about the schism between OT and IT, they haven't really talked a lot, but in the last several years, they've started to talk more. You look at the ecosystem of IoT providers. I mean, it's companies like Hitachi and PTC and Siemens. I mean, it's the different names than we're used to in IT. What are the big trends that you're seeing the macro? >> So, first of all, traditionally, most manufacturers and environments that were heavy on operations, operational technology, they had the networks air-gapped, completely separated. You had your IT network for business administration, you had the OT network to actually build stuff. Today with emerging technologies and even modern switching architecture everything is being converged. You have the same physical infrastructure in terms of networking, that carries both networks. Sometimes a human error, sometimes a business logic that needs to interconnect these networks to transmit data from the OT side of the house, to the IT side of the house, exposes the OT environment to cyber threats. >> Was that air-gap by design or was it just that there wasn't connectivity? >> It was air-gap by design, due to security and operational reasons, and also ownership in these organizations. The IT-managed space was completely separate from the OT-managed space. So whoever built a network for the controllers to build a car, for example, was an automation engineer and the vendors, that have built these networks, were automation vendors, unlike the traditional Ciscos of the world, that we're specializing in IT. Today we're seeing the IT vendors on the OT side, and the OT vendors, they're worried about the IT side. >> But I mean, tradition, I mean, engineers are control freaks. No offense, but, I'm glad they are, I'm thankful for that. So there must have been some initial reticence to them connecting up these air-gap systems. They went wanted to make sure that they were secure, that they did it right, and presumably that's where you guys come in. What are the exposures and risks of these, of this critical infrastructure that we should be aware of? >> So you're completely right. And from an operational perspective let let's call it change control is very rigorous. So they did not want to go on the internet and just, we're seeing it with adoption of cloud technologies, for example. Cloud as in industry four ago, five ago, cloud as in cyber security. We all heard Amol's keynote from this morning talking about critical infrastructures and we'll touch upon our partnership in a second, but CrowdStrike, CrowdStrike being considered and deployed within these environments is a new thing. It's a new thing because the OT operation managers and the chief information security officers, they understand that air-gap is no longer a valid strategy. From a business perspective, these networks are already connected. We're seeing the trends of cyber attacks, IT cyber attacks, like not Patreon, I'm not talking about the Stoxnet, the targeted OT. I'm talking about WannaCry, EternalBlue, IT vulnerabilities that did not target OT, but due to the outdated and the specification of OT posture on the networks, they hit healthcare, they hit OT much harder than they did IT. >> Was Log4J, did that sleep into OT, or any IT that. >> So, absolutely. >> So Log4J right, which was so pervasive, like so many of these malwares. >> All these vulnerabilities that, it's a windows vulnerability, it has nothing to do with OT. But then when you stop and you say, hold on, my human machine interface workstation, although it has some proprietary software by Rockwell or Siemens running on it, what is the underlying operating system? Oh, hold on, it's Windows. We haven't updated that for like eight years. We were focused on updating the software but not the underlying operating system. The vulnerabilities exist to a greater extent on the OT side of the house because of the same characteristic of operational technology environments. >> So the brute force air-gap approach was no longer viable because the business imperative came in and said, no, we have to connect these systems to digitally transform, or advance our business, there's opportunities to monetize, whatever it was. The business laid that out as an imperative. So now OT engineers have to rethink how they secure it. So what are the steps that they're taking and how does Claroty help? Is there a sort of a playbook, a sequential playbook? >> Absolutely, so before we discussed the maturity curve of adopting an CPS security, or OT security technology, let's touch upon the characteristic of the space and what it led vendors like Claroty to build. So you have the rigorous chain control. You have the security in mind, operations, lowered the risk state of mind. That led vendors, likes of Claroty, to build a solution. And I'm talking about seven, eight years ago, to be passive, mostly passive or passive only to inspect network and to analyze network and focus on detection rather than taking action like response or preventative maintenance. >> Um-hmm. >> It made vendors to build on-prem solutions because of the cloud-averse state of mind of this industry. And because OT is very specific, it led vendors to focus only on OT devices, overlooking what we discussed as IoT, Unfortunately, besides HMI and PLC, the controller in the plant, you also have the security camera. So when you install an OT security solution I'm talking about the traditional ones, they traditionally overlook the security camera or anything that is not considered traditional OT. These three observations, although they were necessary in the beginning, you understand the shortcomings of it today. >> Um-hmm. >> So cloud-averse led to on-prem which leads to war security. It's like comparing CrowdStrike and one of its traditional competitors in the antivirus space. What CrowdStrike innovated is the SaaS first, cloud-native solution that is continuously being updated and provide the best in cloud security, right? And that is very much like what Claroty's building. We decided to go SaaS first and cloud-native solution. >> So, because of cloud-aversion, the industry shows somewhat outdated deployment models, on-prem, which limited scale and created greater diversity, more stovepipes, all the problems that we always talk about. Okay, and so is the answer to that, just becoming more cloud, having more of an affinity to cloud? That was a starting point, right. >> This is exactly it. Air-gap is perceived as secured, but you don't get updates and you don't really know what's going on in your network. If you have a Claroty or a crosswork installer, you have much higher probability detecting fast and responding fast. If you don't have it, you are just blind. You will be bridged, that's the. >> I was going to say, plus, air-gap, it's true, but people can get through air-gaps, too. I mean, it's harder, but Stoxnet. Yeah, look at Stoxnet right, oh, it's mopping the floor, boom, or however it happened, but so yeah. >> Correct. >> So, but the point being, you know, assume that breach, even though I know CrowdStrike thinks that the unstoppable breach is a myth, but you know, you talk to people like Kevin Mandia, it's like, we assume you're going to get breached, right? Let's make that assumption. Yeah, okay, and so that means you've got to have visibility into the network. So what are those steps that you would, what's that maturity model that you referenced before? >> So on top of these underlying principles, which is cloud-native, comprehensive, not OT only, but XIoT, and then bring that the verticalization and OT specificity. On top of that, you're exactly right. There is a maturity curve. You cannot boil the ocean, deploy protections, and change the environment within one day. It starts with discovering everything that is connected to your network. Everything from the traditional workstations to the cameras, and of course ending up with the cyber physical systems on the network. That discovery cannot be only a high level profile, it needs to be in depth to the level you need to know application versions of these devices. If you cannot tell the application version you cannot correlate it to a vulnerability, right? Just knowing that's an HMI or that's a PLC by Siemens is insufficient. You need to know the app version, then you can correlate to vulnerability, then you can correlate to risk. This is the next step, risk assessment. You need to put up a score basically, on each one of these devices. A vulnerability score, risk score, in order to prioritize action. >> Um-hmm. >> These two steps are discovery and thinking about the environment. The next two steps are taking action. After we have the prioritized devices discovered on your network, our approach is that you need to ladle in and deploy protections from a preventative perspective. Claroty delivers recommended policies in the form of access control lists or rules. >> Right. >> That can leverage existing infrastructure without touching a device without patching it, just to protect it. The next step would be detection and response. Once you have these policies deployed you also can leverage them to spot policy deviations. >> And that's where CrowdStrike comes in. So talk about how you guys partner with CrowdStrike, what that integration looks like and what the differentiation is. >> So actually the integration with CrowdStrike crosses the the entire customer journey. It starts with visibility. CrowdStrike and us exchange data on the asset level. With the announcement during FalCon, with Falcon Discover for IoT, we are really, really proud working on that with CrowdStrike. Traditionally CrowdStrike discovered and provided data about the IT assets. And we did the same thing with CPS and OT. Today with Falcon Discover for IoT, and us expanding to the XIoT space, both of us look at all devices but we can discover different things. When you merge these data sets you have an unparalleled visibility into any environment, and specifically OT. The integrations continue, and maybe the second spotlight I'll put, but without diminishing the other ones, is detection and response. It's the XDR Alliance. Claroty is very proud to be one of the first partners, XDR Alliance partners, for CrowdStrike, fitting in to the XDR, to CrowdStrike's XDR, the data that is needed to mitigate and respond and get more context about breaches in these OT environments, but also take action. Also trigger action, via Claroty and leverage Claroty's network-centric capabilities to respond. >> We hear a lot. We heard a lot in today's keynote note about the data, the importance of data, of the graph database. How unique is this Stephan, in the industry, in your view? >> The uniqueness of what exactly? >> Of this joint solution, if you will, this capability. >> I told my counterparts from CrowdStrike yesterday, the go-to market ones and the product management ones. If we are successful with Falcon Discover for IoT, and that product matures, as we plan for it to mature, it will change the industry, the OT security industry, for all of us. Not only for Claroty, for all players in this space. And this is why it's so important for us to stay coordinated and support this amazing company to enter this space and provide better security to organizations that really support our lives. >> We got to leave it there, but this is such an important topic. We're seeing in the war in Ukraine, there's a cyber component in the future of war. >> Yes. >> Today. And what do they do? They go after critical infrastructure. So protecting that critical infrastructure is so important, especially for a country like the United States, which has so much critical infrastructure and a lot to lose. So Stephan, thanks so much. >> Thank you. >> For the work that you're doing. It was great to have you on theCUBE. >> Thank you. >> All right, keep it right there. Dave Vellante for theCUBE. We'll be right back from fal.con '22. We're live from the ARIA in Las Vegas. (techno music)

(electronic music) >> Hello everybody, welcome back to Boston. This is Dave Vellante and you're watching theCUBE's continuous coverage of AWS re:Inforce 2022. We're here at the convention center in Boston where theCUBE got started in May of 2010. I'm really excited. Lena Smart is here, she's the chief information security officer at MongoDB rocket ship company We covered MongoDB World earlier this year, June, down in New York. Lena, thanks for coming to theCUBE. >> Thank you for having me. >> You're very welcome, I enjoyed your keynote yesterday. You had a big audience, I mean, this is a big deal. >> Yeah. >> This is the cloud security conference, AWS, putting its mark in the sand back in 2019. Of course, a couple of years of virtual, now back in Boston. You talked in your keynote about security, how it used to be an afterthought, used to be the responsibility of a small group of people. >> Yeah. >> You know, it used to be a bolt on. >> Yep. >> That's changed dramatically and that change has really accelerated through the pandemic. >> Yep. >> Just describe that change from your perspective. >> So when I started at MongoDB about three and a half years ago, we had a very strong security program, but it wasn't under one person. So I was their first CISO that they employed. And I brought together people who were already doing security and we employed people from outside the company as well. The person that I employed as my deputy is actually a third time returnee, I guess? So he's worked for, MongoDB be twice before, his name is Chris Sandalo, and having someone of that stature in the company is really helpful to build the security culture that I wanted. That's why I really wanted Chris to come back. He's technically brilliant, but he also knew all the people who'd been there for a while and having that person as a trusted second in command really, really helped me grow the team very quickly. I've already got a reputation as a strong female leader. He had a reputation as a strong technical leader. So us combined is like indestructible, we we're a great team. >> Is your scope of responsibility, obviously you're protecting Mongo, >> Yeah. >> How much of your role extends into the product? >> So we have a product security team that report into Sahir Azam, our chief product officer. I think you even spoke to him. >> Yeah, he's amazing. >> He's awesome, isn't he? He's just fabulous. And so his team, they've got security experts on our product side who are really kind of the customer facing. I'm also to a certain extent customer facing, but the product folks are the absolute experts. They will listen to what our customers need, what they want, and together we can then work out and translate that. I'm also responsible for governance risk and compliance. So there's a large portion of our customers that give us input via that program too. So there's a lot of avenues to allow us to facilitate change in the security field. And I think that's really important. We have to listen to what our customers want, but also internally. You know, what our internal groups need as well to help them grow. >> I remember last year, Re:invent 2021, I was watching a talk on security. It was the, I forget his name, but it was the individual who responsible for data center security. And one of the things he said was, you know, look it's not at the end of the day, the technology's important but it's not the technology. It's how you apply the tools and the practices and the culture- >> Right. That you build in the organization that will ultimately determine how successful you are at decreasing the ROI for the bad guys. >> Yes. >> Let's put it that way. So talk about the challenges of building that culture, how you go about that, and how you sustain that cultural aspect. >> So, I think having the security champion program, so that's just, it's like one of my babies, that and helping underrepresented groups in MongoDB kind of get on in the tech world are both really important to me. And so the security champion program is purely voluntary. We have over a hundred members. And these are people, there's no bar to join. You don't have to be technical. If you're an executive assistant who wants to learn more about security, like my assistant does, you're more than welcome. Up to, we actually people grade themselves, when they join us, we give them a little tick box. Like five is, I walk in security water. One is, I can spell security but I'd like to learn more. Mixing those groups together has been game changing for us. We now have over a hundred people who volunteer their time, with their supervisors permission, they help us with their phishing campaigns, testing AWS tool sets, testing things like queryable encryption. I mean, we have people who have such an in-depth knowledge in other areas of the business that I could never learn, no matter how much time I had. And so to have them- And we have people from product as security champions as well, and security, and legal, and HR, and every department is recognized. And I think almost every geographical location is also recognized. So just to have that scope and depth of people with long tenure in the company, technically brilliant, really want to understand how they can apply the cultural values that we live with each day to make our security program stronger. As I say, that's been a game changer for us. We use it as a feeder program. So we've had five people transfer from other departments into the security and GRC teams through this Champions program. >> Makes a lot of sense. You take somebody who walks on water in security, mix them with somebody who really doesn't know a lot about it but wants to learn and then can ask really basic questions, and then the experts can actually understand better how to communicate. >> Absolutely. >> To that you know that 101 level. >> It's absolutely true. Like my mom lives in her iPad. She worships her iPad. Unfortunately she thinks everything on it is true. And so for me to try and dumb it down, and she's not a dumb person, but for me to try and dumb down the message of most of it's rubbish, mom, Facebook is made up. It's just people telling stories. For me to try and get that over to- So she's a one, and I might be a five, that's hard. That's really hard. And so that's what we're doing in the office as well. It's like, if you can explain to my mother how not everything on the internet is true, we're golden. >> My mom, rest her soul, when she first got a- we got her a Macintosh, this was years and years and years ago, and we were trying to train her over the phone, and said, mom, just grab the mouse. And she's like, I don't like mice. (Lena laughs) There you go. I know, I know, Lena, what that's like. Years ago, it was early last decade, we started to think about, wow, security really has to become a board level item. >> Yeah. >> And it really wasn't- 2010, you know, for certain companies. But really, and so I had the pleasure of interviewing Dr. Robert Gates, who was the defense secretary. >> Yes. >> We had this conversation, and he sits on a number, or sat on a number of boards, probably still does, but he was adamant. Oh, absolutely. Here's how you know, here. This is the criticality. Now it's totally changed. >> Right. >> I mean, it's now a board level item. But how do you communicate to the C-Suite, the board? How often do you do that? What do you recommend is the right regime? And I know there's not any perfect- there's got to be situational, but how do you approach it? >> So I am extremely lucky. We have a very technical board. Our chairman of the board is Tom Killalea. You know, Amazon alum, I mean, just genius. And he, and the rest of the board, it's not like a normal board. Like I actually have the meeting on this coming Monday. So this weekend will be me reading as much stuff as I possibly can, trying to work out what questions they're going to ask me. And it's never a gotcha kind of thing. I've been at board meetings before where you almost feel personally attacked and that's not a good thing. Where, at MongoDB, you can see they genuinely want us to grow and mature. And so I actually meet with our board four times a year, just for security. So we set up our own security meeting just with board members who are specifically interested in security, which is all of them. And so this is actually off cadence. So I actually get their attention for at least an hour once a quarter, which is almost unheard of. And we actually use the AWS memo format. People have a chance to comment and read prior to the meeting. So they know what we're going to talk about and we know what their concerns are. And so you're not going in like, oh my gosh, what what's going to happen for this hour? We come prepared. We have statistics. We can show them where we're growing. We can show them where we need more growth and maturity. And I think having that level of just development of programs, but also the ear of the board has has helped me mature my role 10 times. And then also we have the chance to ask them, well what are your other CISOs doing? You know, they're members of other boards. So I can say to Dave, for example, you know, what's so-and-so doing at Datadog? Or Tom Killelea, what's the CISO of Capital One doing? And they help me make a lot of those connections as well. I mean, the CISO world is small and me being a female in the world with a Scottish accent, I'm probably more memorable than most. So it's like, oh yeah, that's the Irish girl. Yeah. She's Scottish, thank you. But they remember me and I can use that. And so just having all those mentors from the board level down, and obviously Dev is a huge, huge fan of security and GRC. It's no longer that box ticking exercise that I used to feel security was, you know, if you heated your SOC2 type two in FinTech, oh, you were good to go. You know, if you did a HERC set for the power industry. All right, right. You know, we can move on now. It's not that anymore. >> Right. It's every single day. >> Yeah. Of course. Dev is Dev at the Chario. Dev spelled D E V. I spell Dave differently. My Dave. But, Lena, it sounds like you present a combination of metrics, so, the board, you feel like that's appropriate to dig into the metrics. But also I'm presuming you're talking strategy, potentially, you know, gaps- >> Road roadmaps, the whole nine yards. Yep. >> What's the, you know, I look at the budget scenario. At the macro level, CIOs have told us, they came into the year saying, hey we're going to grow spending at the macro, around eight percent, eight and a half percent. That's dialed down a little bit post Ukraine and the whole recession and Fed tightening. So now they're down maybe around six percent. So not dramatically lower, but still. And they tell us security is still the number one priority. >> Yes. >> That's been the case for many, many quarters, and actually years, but you don't have an unlimited budget. >> Sure >> Right. It's not like, oh, here is an open checkbook. >> Right. >> Lena, so, how does Mongo balance that with the other priorities in the organization, obviously, you know, you got to spend money on product, you got to spend money and go to market. What's the climate like now, is it, you know continuing on in 2022 despite some of the macro concerns? Is it maybe tapping the brakes? What's the general sentiment? >> We would never tap the breaks. I mean, this is something that's- So my other half works in the finance industry still. So we have, you know, interesting discussions when it comes to geopolitics and financial politics and you know, Dev, the chairman of the board, all very technical people, get that security is going to be taken advantage of if we're seeing to be tapping the brakes. So it does kind of worry me when I hear other people are saying, oh, we're, you know, we're cutting back our budget. We are not. That being said, you also have to be fiscally responsible. I'm Scottish, we're cheap, really frugal with money. And so I always tell my team: treat this money as if it's your own. As if it's my money. And so when we're buying tool sets, I want to make sure that I'm talking to the CISO, or the CISO of the company that's supplying it, and saying are you giving me the really the best value? You know, how can we maybe even partner with you as a database platform? How could we partner with you, X company, to, you know, maybe we'll give you credits on our platform. If you look to moving to us and then we could have a partnership, and I mean, that's how some of this stuff builds, and so I've been pretty good at doing that. I enjoy doing that. But then also just in terms of being fiscally responsible, yeah, I get it. There's CISOs who have every tool that's out there because it's shiny and it's new and they know the board is never going to say no, but at some point, people will get wise to that and be like, I think we need a new CISO. So it's not like we're going to stop spending it. So we're going to get someone who actually knows how to budget and get us what the best value for money. And so that's always been my view is we're always going to be financed. We're always going to be financed well. But I need to keep showing that value for money. And we do that every board meeting, every Monday when I meet with my boss. I mean, I report to the CFO but I've got a dotted line to the CTO. So I'm, you know, I'm one of the few people at this level that's got my feet in both camps. You know budgets are talked at Dev's level. So, you know, it's really important that we get the spend right. >> And that value is essentially, as I was kind of alluding to before, it's decreasing the value equation for the hackers, for the adversary. >> Hopefully, yes. >> Right? Who's the- of course they're increasingly sophisticated. I want to ask you about your relationship with AWS in this context. It feels like, when I look around here, I think back to 2019, there was a lot of talk about the shared responsibility model. >> Yes. >> You know, AWS likes to educate people and back then it was like, okay, hey, by the way, you know you got to, you know, configure the S3 bucket properly. And then, oh, by the way, there's more than just, it's not just binary. >> Right, right. >> There's other factors involved. The application access and identity and things like that, et cetera, et cetera. So that was all kind of cool. But I feel like the cloud is becoming the first line of defense for the CISO but because of the shared responsibility model, CISO is now the second line of defense >> Yes. Does that change your role? Does it make it less complicated in a way? Maybe, you know, more complicated because you now got to get your DevSecOps team? The developers are now much more involved in security? How is that shifting, specifically in the context of your relationship with AWS? >> It's honestly not been that much of a shift. I mean, these guys are very proactive when it comes to where we are from the security standpoint. They listen to their customers as much as we do. So when we sit down with them, when I meet with Steve Schmidt or CJ or you know, our account manager, its not a conversation that's a surprise to me when I tell them this is what we need. They're like, yep, we're on that already. And so I think that relationship has been very proactive rather than reactive. And then in terms of MongoDB, as a tech company, security is always at the forefront. So it's not been a huge lift for me. It's really just been my time that I've taken to understand where DevSecOps is coming from. And you know, how far are we shifting left? Are we actually shifting right now? It's like, you know, get the balance, right? You can't be too much to one side. But I think in terms of where we're teaching the developers, you know, we are a company by developers for developers. So, we get it, we understand where they're coming from, and we try and be as proactive as AWS is. >> When you obviously the SolarWinds hack was a a major mile- I think in security, there's always something in the headlines- >> Yes. But when you think of things like, you know, Stuxnet, you know, Log4J, obviously Solarwinds and the whole supply chain infiltration and the bill of materials. As I said before, the adversary is extremely capable and sophisticated and you know, much more automated. It's always been automated attacks, but you know island hopping and infiltrating and self-forming malware and really sophisticated techniques. >> Yep. >> How are you thinking about that supply chain, bill of materials from inside Mongo and ultimately externally to your customers? >> So you've picked on my third favorite topic to talk about. So I came from the power industry before, so I've got a lot of experience with critical infrastructure. And that was really, I think, where a lot of the supply chain management rules and regulations came from. If you're building a turbine and the steel's coming from China, we would send people to China to make sure that the steel we were buying was the steel we were using. And so that became the H bomb. The hardware bill of materials, bad name. But, you know, we remember what it stood for. And then fast forward: President Biden's executive order. SBOs front and center, cloud first front and center. It's like, this is perfect. And so I was actually- I actually moderated a panel earlier this year at Homeland Security Week in DC, where we had a sneak CISA, So Dr. Allen Friedman from CISA, and also Patrick Weir from OWASP for the framework, CISA for the framework as well, and just the general guidance, and Snake for the front end. That was where my head was going. And MongoDB is the back-end database. And what we've done is we've taken our work with Snake and we now have a proof of concept for SBOs. And so I'm now trying to kind of package that, if you like, as a program and get the word out that SBOs shouldn't be something to be afraid of. If you want to do business with the government you're going to have to create one. We are offering a secure repository to store that data, the government could have access to that repository and see that data. So there's one source of truth. And so I think SBOs is going to be really interesting. I know that, you know, some of my peers are like, oh, it's just another box to tick. And I think it's more than that. I definitely- I've just, there's something percolating in the back of my mind that this is going to be big and we're going to be able to use it to hopefully not stop things like another Log4j, there's always going to be another Log4j, we know that. we don't know everything, the unknown unknown, but at least if we're prepared to go find stuff quicker than we were then before Log4j, I think having SBOs on hand, having that one source of truth, that one repository, I think is going to make it so much easier to find those things. >> Last question, what's the CISO's number one challenge? Either yours or the CISO, generally. >> Keeping up with the fire hose that is security. Like, what do you pick tomorrow? And if you pick the wrong thing, what's the impact? So that's why I'm always networking and talking to my peers. And, you know, we're sometimes like meerkats, you know. there's meerkats, you see like this, it's like, what do we talk about? But there's always something to talk about. And you just have to learn and keep learning. >> Last question, part B. As a hot technology company, that's, you know, rising star, you know not withstanding the tech lash and the stock market- >> Yeah. >> But Mongo's growing, you know, wonderfully. Do you find it easier to attract talent? Like many CISOs will say, you know, lack of talent is my biggest, biggest challenge. Do you find that that's not the challenge for you? >> Not at all. I think on two fronts, one, we have the champions program. So we've got a whole internal ecosystem who love working there. So the minute one of my jobs goes on the board, they get first dibs at it. So they'd already phoning their friends. So we've got, you know, there's ripple effects out from over a hundred people internally. You know, I think just having that, that's been a game changer. >> I was so looking forward to interviewing you, Lena, thanks so much for coming. >> Thank you, this was a pleasure. >> It was really great to have you. >> Thank you so much. Thank you. >> You're really welcome. All right, keep it right there. This is Dave Villante for theCUBE. We'll be right back at AWS Re:inforce22 right after this short break.

(upbeat music) >> Today's organizations are overwhelmed by the number of different assets connected to their networks, which now include not only IT devices and assets, but also a lot of unmanaged assets, like cloud, IoT, building management systems, industrial control systems, medical devices, and more. That's not just it, there's more. We're seeing massive volume of threats, and a surge of severe vulnerabilities that put these assets at risk. This is happening every day. And many, including me, think it's only going to get worse. The scale of the problem will accelerate. Security and IT teams are struggling to manage all these vulnerabilities at scale. With the time it takes to exploit a new vulnerability, combined with the lack of visibility into the asset attack surface area, companies are having a hard time addressing the vulnerabilities as quickly as they need. This is today's special CUBE program, where we're going to talk about these problems and how they're solved. Hello, everyone. I'm John Furrier, host of theCUBE. This is a special program called Managing Risk Across Your Extended Attack Surface Area with Armis, new asset intelligence platform. To start things off, let's bring in the co-founder and CTO of Armis, Nadir Izrael. Nadir, great to have you on the program. >> Yeah, thanks for having me. >> Great success with Armis. I want to just roll back and just zoom out and look at, what's the big picture? What are you guys focused on? What's the holy grail? What's the secret sauce? >> So Armis' mission, if you will, is to solve to your point literally one of the holy grails of security teams for the past decade or so, which is, what if you could actually have a complete, unified, authoritative asset inventory of everything, and stressing that word, everything. IT, OT, IoT, everything on kind of the physical space of things, data centers, virtualization, applications, cloud. What if you could have everything mapped out for you so that you can actually operate your organization on top of essentially a map? I like to equate this in a way to organizations and security teams everywhere seem to be running, basically running the battlefield, if you will, of their organization, without an actual map of what's going on, with charts and graphs. So we are here to provide that map in every aspect of the environment, and be able to build on top of that business processes, products, and features that would assist security teams in managing that battlefield. >> So this category, basically, is a cyber asset attack surface management kind of focus, but it really is defined by this extended asset attack surface area. What is that? Can you explain that? >> Yeah, it's a mouthful. I think the CAASM, for short, and Gartner do love their acronyms there, but CAASM, in short, is a way to describe a bit of what I mentioned before, or a slice out of it. It's the whole part around a unified view of the attack surface, where I think where we see things, and kind of where Armis extends to that is really with the extended attack surface. That basically means that idea of, what if you could have it all? What if you could have both a unified view of your environment, but also of every single thing that you have, with a strong emphasis on the completeness of that picture? If I take the map analogy slightly more to the extreme, a map of some of your environment isn't nearly as useful as a map of everything. If you had to, in your own kind of map application, you know, chart a path from New York to whichever your favorite surrounding city, but it only takes you so far, and then you sort of need to do the rest of it on your own, not nearly as effective, and in security terms, I think it really boils down into you can't secure what you can't see. And so from an Armis perspective, it's about seeing everything in order to protect everything. And not only do we discover every connected asset that you have, we provide a risk rating to every single one of them, we provide a criticality rating, and the ability to take action on top of these things. >> Having a map is huge. Everyone wants to know what's in their inventory, right, from a risk management standpoint, also from a vulnerability perspective. So I totally see that, and I can see that being the holy grail, but on the vulnerability side, you got to see everything, and you guys have new stuff around vulnerability management. What's this all about? What kind of gaps are you seeing that you're filling in the vulnerability side, because, okay, I can see everything. Now I got to watch out for threat vectors. >> Yeah, and I'd say a different way of asking this is, okay, vulnerability management has been around for a while. What the hell are you bringing into the mix that's so new and novel and great? So I would say that vulnerability scanners of different sorts have existed for over a decade. And I think that ultimately what Armis brings into the mix today is how do we fill in the gaps in a world where critical infrastructure is in danger of being attacked by nation states these days, where ransomware is an everyday occurrence, and where I think credible, up-to-the-minute, and contextualize vulnerability and risk information is essential. Scanners, or how we've been doing things for the last decade, just aren't enough. I think the three things that Armis excels at and completes the security staff today on the vulnerability management side are scale, reach, and context. Scale, meaning ultimately, and I think this is of no news to any enterprise, environments are huge. They are beyond huge. When most of the solutions that enterprises use today were built, they were built for thousands, or tens of thousands of assets. These days, we measure enterprises in the billions, billions of different assets, especially if you include how applications are structured, containers, cloud, all that, billions and billions of different assets, and I think that, ultimately, when the latest and greatest in catastrophic new vulnerabilities come out, and sadly, that's a monthly occurrence these days. You can't just now wait around for things to kind of scan through the environment, and figure out what's going on there. Real time images of vulnerabilities, real time understanding of what the risk is across that entire massive footprint is essential to be able to do things, and if you don't, then lots and lots of teams of people are tasked with doing this day in, day out, in order to accomplish the task. The second thing, I think, is the reach. Scanners can't go everywhere. They don't really deal well with environments that are a mixed IT/OT, for instance, like some of our clients deal with. They can't really deal with areas that aren't classic IT. And in general, these days over 70% of assets are in fact of the unmanaged variety, if you will. So combining different approaches from an Armis standpoint of both passive and active, we reach a tremendous scale, I think, within the environment, and ability to provide or reach that is complete. What if you could have vulnerability management, cover a hundred percent of your environment, and in a very effective manner, and in a very scalable manner? And the last thing really is context. And that's a big deal here. I think that most vulnerability management programs hinge on asset context, on the ability to understand, what are the assets I'm dealing with? And more importantly, what is the criticality of these assets, so I can better prioritize and manage the entire process along the way? So with these things in mind, that's what Armis has basically pulled out is a vulnerability management process. What if we could collect all the vulnerability information from your entire environment, and give you a map of that, on top of that map of assets? Connect every single vulnerability and finding to the relevant assets, and give you a real way to manage that automatically, and in a way that prevents teams of people from having to do a lot of grunt work in the process. >> Yeah, it's like building a search engine, almost. You got the behavioral, contextual. You got to understand what's going on in the environment, and then you got to have the context to what it means relative to the environment. And this is the criticality piece you mentioned, this is a huge differentiator in my mind. I want to unpack that. Understanding what's going on, and then what to pay attention to, it's a data problem. You got that kind of search and cataloging of the assets, and then you got the contextualization of it, but then what alarms do I pay attention to? What is the vulnerability? This is the context. This is a huge deal, because your businesses, your operation's going to have some important pieces, but also it changes on agility. So how do you guys do that? That's, I think, a key piece. >> Yeah, that's a really good question. So asset criticality is a key piece in being able to prioritize the operation. The reason is really simple, and I'll take an example we're all very, very familiar with, and it's been beaten to death, but it's still a good example, which is Log4j, or Log4Shell. When that came out, hundreds of people in large organizations started mapping the entire environment on which applications have what aspect of Log4j. Now, one of the key things there is that when you're doing that exercise for the first time, there are literally millions of systems in a typical enterprise that have Log4j in them, but asset criticality and the application and business context are key here, because some of these different assets that have Log4j are part of your critical business function and your critical business applications, and they deserve immediate attention. Some of them, or some Git server of some developer somewhere, don't warrant quite the same attention or criticality as others. Armis helps by providing the underlying asset map as a built-in aspect of the process. It maps the relationships and dependencies for you. It pulls together and clusters together. What applications does each asset serve? So I might be looking at a server and saying, okay, this server, it supports my ERP system. It supports my production applications to be able to serve my customers. It serves maybe my .com website. Understanding what applications each asset serves and every dependency along the way, meaning that endpoint, that server, but also the load balancers are supported, and the firewalls, and every aspect along the way, that's the bread and butter of the relationship mapping that Armis puts into place to be able to do that, and we also allow users to tweak, add information, connect us with their CMDB or anywhere else where they put this in, but once the information is in, that can serve vulnerability management. It can serve other security functions as well. But in the context of vulnerability management, it creates a much more streamlined process for being able to do the basics. Some critical applications, I want to know exactly what all the critical vulnerabilities that apply to them are. Some business applications, I just want to be able to put SLAs on, that this must be solved within a week, this must be solved within a month, and be able to actually automatically track all of these in a world that is very, very complex inside of an operation or an enterprise. >> We're going to hear from some of your customers later, but I want to just get your thoughts on, anecdotally, what do you hear from? You're the CTO, co-founder, you're actually going into the big accounts. When you roll this out, what are they saying to you? What are some of the comments? Oh my God, this is amazing. Thank you so much. >> Well, of course. Of course. >> Share some of the comments. >> Well, first of all, of course, that's what they're saying. They're saying we're great. Of course, always, but more specifically, I think this solves a huge gap for them. They are used to tools coming in and discovering vulnerabilities for them, but really close to nothing being able to streamline the truly complex and scalable process of being able to manage vulnerabilities within the environment. Not only that, the integration-led, designer-led deployment and the fact that we are a completely agent-less SaaS platform are extremely important for them. These are times where if something isn't easily deployable for an enterprise, its value is next to nothing. I think that enterprises have come to realize that if something isn't a one click deployment across the environment, it's almost not worth the effort these days, because environments are so complex that you can't fully realize the value any other way. So from an Armis standpoint, the fact that we can deploy with a few clicks, the fact that we immediately provide that value, the fact that we're agent-less, in the sense that we don't need to go around installing a footprint within the environment, and for clients who already have Armis, the fact that it's a flip of a switch, just turn it on, are extreme. I think that the fact, in particular, that Armis can be deployed. the vulnerability management can be deployed on top of the existing vulnerability scanner with a simple one-click integration is huge for them. And I think all of these together are what contribute to them saying how great this is. But yeah, that's it. >> The agent listing is huge. What's the alternative? What does it look like if they're going to go the other route, slow to deploy, have meetings, launch it in the environment? What's it look like? >> I think anything these days that touches an endpoint with an agent goes through a huge round of approvals before anything goes into an environment. Same goes, by the way, for additional scanners. No one wants to hear about additional scanners. They've already gone through the effort with some of the biggest tools out there to punch holes through firewalls, to install scanners in different ways. They don't want yet another scanner, or yet another agent. Armis rides on top of the existing infrastructure, the existing agents, the existing scanners. You don't need to do a thing. It just deploys on top of it, and that's really what makes this so easy and seamless. >> Talk about Armis research. Can you talk about, what's that about? What's going on there? What are you guys doing? How do you guys stay relevant for your customers? >> For sure. So one of the, I've made a lot of bold claims throughout, I think, the entire Q and A here, but one of the biggest magic components, if you will, to Armis that kind of help explain what all these magic components are, are really something that we call our collective asset knowledge base. And it's really the source of our power. Think of it as a giant collective intelligent that keeps learning from all of the different environments combined that Armis is deployed at. Essentially, if we see something in one environment, we can translate it immediately into all environments. So anyone who joins this or uses the product joins this collective intelligence in essence. What does that mean? It means that Armis learns about vulnerabilities from other environments. A new Log4j comes out, for instance. It's enough that, in some environments, Armis is able to see it from scanners, or from agents, or from SBOMs, or anything that basically provides information about Log4j, and Armis immediately infers or creates enrichment rules that act across the entire tenant base, or the entire client base of Armis. So very quick response to industry events, whenever something comes out, again, the results are immediate, very up to the minute, very up to the hour, but also I'd say that Armis does its own proactive asset research. We have a huge data set at our disposal, a lot of willing and able clients, and also a lot of partners within the industry that Armis leverages, but our own research is into interesting aspects within the environment. We do our own proactive research into things like TLStorm, which is kind of a bit of a bridging research and vulnerabilities between cyber physical aspect. So on the one hand, the cyber space and kind of virtual environments, but on the other hand, the actual physical space, vulnerabilities, and things like UPSs, or industrial equipment, or things like that. But I will say that also, Armis targets its research along different paths that we feel are underserved. We started a few years back research into firmwares, different types of real time operating systems. We came out with things like URGENT/11, which was research into, on the one hand, operating systems that run on two billion different devices worldwide, on the other hand, in the 40 years it existed, only 13 vulnerabilities were ever exposed or revealed about that operating system. Either it's the most secure operating system in the world, or it's just not gone through enough rigor and enough research in doing this. The type of active research we do is to complement a lot of the research going on in the industry, serve our clients better, but also provide kind of inroads, I think, for the industry to be better at what they do. >> Awesome, Nadir, thanks for sharing the insights. Great to see the research. You got to be at the cutting edge. You got to investigate, be ready for a moment's notice on all aspects of the operating environment, down to the hardware, down to the packet level, down to the any vulnerability, be ready for it. Great job. Thanks for sharing. Appreciate it. >> Absolutely. >> In a moment, Tim Everson's going to join us. He's the CSO of Kalahari Resorts and Conventions. He'll be joining me next. You're watching theCUBE, the leader in high tech coverage. I'm John Furrier. Thanks for watching. (upbeat music)

(upbeat music) >> Today's organizations are overwhelmed by the number of different assets connected to their networks, which now include not only IT devices and assets, but also a lot of unmanaged assets, like cloud, IoT, building management systems, industrial control systems, medical devices, and more. That's not just it, there's more. We're seeing massive volume of threats, and a surge of severe vulnerabilities that put these assets at risk. This is happening every day. And many, including me, think it's only going to get worse. The scale of the problem will accelerate. Security and IT teams are struggling to manage all these vulnerabilities at scale. With the time it takes to exploit a new vulnerability, combined with the lack of visibility into the asset attack surface area, companies are having a hard time addressing the vulnerabilities as quickly as they need. This is today's special CUBE program, where we're going to talk about these problems and how they're solved. Hello, everyone. I'm John Furrier, host of theCUBE. This is a special program called Managing Risk Across Your Extended Attack Surface Area with Armis, new asset intelligence platform. To start things off, let's bring in the co-founder and CTO of Armis, Nadir Izrael. Nadir, great to have you on the program. >> Yeah, thanks for having me. >> Great success with Armis. I want to just roll back and just zoom out and look at, what's the big picture? What are you guys focused on? What's the holy grail? What's the secret sauce? >> So Armis' mission, if you will, is to solve to your point literally one of the holy grails of security teams for the past decade or so, which is, what if you could actually have a complete, unified, authoritative asset inventory of everything, and stressing that word, everything. IT, OT, IoT, everything on kind of the physical space of things, data centers, virtualization, applications, cloud. What if you could have everything mapped out for you so that you can actually operate your organization on top of essentially a map? I like to equate this in a way to organizations and security teams everywhere seem to be running, basically running the battlefield, if you will, of their organization, without an actual map of what's going on, with charts and graphs. So we are here to provide that map in every aspect of the environment, and be able to build on top of that business processes, products, and features that would assist security teams in managing that battlefield. >> So this category, basically, is a cyber asset attack surface management kind of focus, but it really is defined by this extended asset attack surface area. What is that? Can you explain that? >> Yeah, it's a mouthful. I think the CAASM, for short, and Gartner do love their acronyms there, but CAASM, in short, is a way to describe a bit of what I mentioned before, or a slice out of it. It's the whole part around a unified view of the attack surface, where I think where we see things, and kind of where Armis extends to that is really with the extended attack surface. That basically means that idea of, what if you could have it all? What if you could have both a unified view of your environment, but also of every single thing that you have, with a strong emphasis on the completeness of that picture? If I take the map analogy slightly more to the extreme, a map of some of your environment isn't nearly as useful as a map of everything. If you had to, in your own kind of map application, you know, chart a path from New York to whichever your favorite surrounding city, but it only takes you so far, and then you sort of need to do the rest of it on your own, not nearly as effective, and in security terms, I think it really boils down into you can't secure what you can't see. And so from an Armis perspective, it's about seeing everything in order to protect everything. And not only do we discover every connected asset that you have, we provide a risk rating to every single one of them, we provide a criticality rating, and the ability to take action on top of these things. >> Having a map is huge. Everyone wants to know what's in their inventory, right, from a risk management standpoint, also from a vulnerability perspective. So I totally see that, and I can see that being the holy grail, but on the vulnerability side, you got to see everything, and you guys have new stuff around vulnerability management. What's this all about? What kind of gaps are you seeing that you're filling in the vulnerability side, because, okay, I can see everything. Now I got to watch out for threat vectors. >> Yeah, and I'd say a different way of asking this is, okay, vulnerability management has been around for a while. What the hell are you bringing into the mix that's so new and novel and great? So I would say that vulnerability scanners of different sorts have existed for over a decade. And I think that ultimately what Armis brings into the mix today is how do we fill in the gaps in a world where critical infrastructure is in danger of being attacked by nation states these days, where ransomware is an everyday occurrence, and where I think credible, up-to-the-minute, and contextualize vulnerability and risk information is essential. Scanners, or how we've been doing things for the last decade, just aren't enough. I think the three things that Armis excels at and completes the security staff today on the vulnerability management side are scale, reach, and context. Scale, meaning ultimately, and I think this is of no news to any enterprise, environments are huge. They are beyond huge. When most of the solutions that enterprises use today were built, they were built for thousands, or tens of thousands of assets. These days, we measure enterprises in the billions, billions of different assets, especially if you include how applications are structured, containers, cloud, all that, billions and billions of different assets, and I think that, ultimately, when the latest and greatest in catastrophic new vulnerabilities come out, and sadly, that's a monthly occurrence these days. You can't just now wait around for things to kind of scan through the environment, and figure out what's going on there. Real time images of vulnerabilities, real time understanding of what the risk is across that entire massive footprint is essential to be able to do things, and if you don't, then lots and lots of teams of people are tasked with doing this day in, day out, in order to accomplish the task. The second thing, I think, is the reach. Scanners can't go everywhere. They don't really deal well with environments that are a mixed IT/OT, for instance, like some of our clients deal with. They can't really deal with areas that aren't classic IT. And in general, these days over 70% of assets are in fact of the unmanaged variety, if you will. So combining different approaches from an Armis standpoint of both passive and active, we reach a tremendous scale, I think, within the environment, and ability to provide or reach that is complete. What if you could have vulnerability management, cover a hundred percent of your environment, and in a very effective manner, and in a very scalable manner? And the last thing really is context. And that's a big deal here. I think that most vulnerability management programs hinge on asset context, on the ability to understand, what are the assets I'm dealing with? And more importantly, what is the criticality of these assets, so I can better prioritize and manage the entire process along the way? So with these things in mind, that's what Armis has basically pulled out is a vulnerability management process. What if we could collect all the vulnerability information from your entire environment, and give you a map of that, on top of that map of assets? Connect every single vulnerability and finding to the relevant assets, and give you a real way to manage that automatically, and in a way that prevents teams of people from having to do a lot of grunt work in the process. >> Yeah, it's like building a search engine, almost. You got the behavioral, contextual. You got to understand what's going on in the environment, and then you got to have the context to what it means relative to the environment. And this is the criticality piece you mentioned, this is a huge differentiator in my mind. I want to unpack that. Understanding what's going on, and then what to pay attention to, it's a data problem. You got that kind of search and cataloging of the assets, and then you got the contextualization of it, but then what alarms do I pay attention to? What is the vulnerability? This is the context. This is a huge deal, because your businesses, your operation's going to have some important pieces, but also it changes on agility. So how do you guys do that? That's, I think, a key piece. >> Yeah, that's a really good question. So asset criticality is a key piece in being able to prioritize the operation. The reason is really simple, and I'll take an example we're all very, very familiar with, and it's been beaten to death, but it's still a good example, which is Log4j, or Log4Shell. When that came out, hundreds of people in large organizations started mapping the entire environment on which applications have what aspect of Log4j. Now, one of the key things there is that when you're doing that exercise for the first time, there are literally millions of systems in a typical enterprise that have Log4j in them, but asset criticality and the application and business context are key here, because some of these different assets that have Log4j are part of your critical business function and your critical business applications, and they deserve immediate attention. Some of them, or some Git server of some developer somewhere, don't warrant quite the same attention or criticality as others. Armis helps by providing the underlying asset map as a built-in aspect of the process. It maps the relationships and dependencies for you. It pulls together and clusters together. What applications does each asset serve? So I might be looking at a server and saying, okay, this server, it supports my ERP system. It supports my production applications to be able to serve my customers. It serves maybe my .com website. Understanding what applications each asset serves and every dependency along the way, meaning that endpoint, that server, but also the load balancers are supported, and the firewalls, and every aspect along the way, that's the bread and butter of the relationship mapping that Armis puts into place to be able to do that, and we also allow users to tweak, add information, connect us with their CMDB or anywhere else where they put this in, but once the information is in, that can serve vulnerability management. It can serve other security functions as well. But in the context of vulnerability management, it creates a much more streamlined process for being able to do the basics. Some critical applications, I want to know exactly what all the critical vulnerabilities that apply to them are. Some business applications, I just want to be able to put SLAs on, that this must be solved within a week, this must be solved within a month, and be able to actually automatically track all of these in a world that is very, very complex inside of an operation or an enterprise. >> We're going to hear from some of your customers later, but I want to just get your thoughts on, anecdotally, what do you hear from? You're the CTO, co-founder, you're actually going into the big accounts. When you roll this out, what are they saying to you? What are some of the comments? Oh my God, this is amazing. Thank you so much. >> Well, of course. Of course. >> Share some of the comments. >> Well, first of all, of course, that's what they're saying. They're saying we're great. Of course, always, but more specifically, I think this solves a huge gap for them. They are used to tools coming in and discovering vulnerabilities for them, but really close to nothing being able to streamline the truly complex and scalable process of being able to manage vulnerabilities within the environment. Not only that, the integration-led, designer-led deployment and the fact that we are a completely agent-less SaaS platform are extremely important for them. These are times where if something isn't easily deployable for an enterprise, its value is next to nothing. I think that enterprises have come to realize that if something isn't a one click deployment across the environment, it's almost not worth the effort these days, because environments are so complex that you can't fully realize the value any other way. So from an Armis standpoint, the fact that we can deploy with a few clicks, the fact that we immediately provide that value, the fact that we're agent-less, in the sense that we don't need to go around installing a footprint within the environment, and for clients who already have Armis, the fact that it's a flip of a switch, just turn it on, are extreme. I think that the fact, in particular, that Armis can be deployed. the vulnerability management can be deployed on top of the existing vulnerability scanner with a simple one-click integration is huge for them. And I think all of these together are what contribute to them saying how great this is. But yeah, that's it. >> The agent listing is huge. What's the alternative? What does it look like if they're going to go the other route, slow to deploy, have meetings, launch it in the environment? What's it look like? >> I think anything these days that touches an endpoint with an agent goes through a huge round of approvals before anything goes into an environment. Same goes, by the way, for additional scanners. No one wants to hear about additional scanners. They've already gone through the effort with some of the biggest tools out there to punch holes through firewalls, to install scanners in different ways. They don't want yet another scanner, or yet another agent. Armis rides on top of the existing infrastructure, the existing agents, the existing scanners. You don't need to do a thing. It just deploys on top of it, and that's really what makes this so easy and seamless. >> Talk about Armis research. Can you talk about, what's that about? What's going on there? What are you guys doing? How do you guys stay relevant for your customers? >> For sure. So one of the, I've made a lot of bold claims throughout, I think, the entire Q and A here, but one of the biggest magic components, if you will, to Armis that kind of help explain what all these magic components are, are really something that we call our collective asset knowledge base. And it's really the source of our power. Think of it as a giant collective intelligent that keeps learning from all of the different environments combined that Armis is deployed at. Essentially, if we see something in one environment, we can translate it immediately into all environments. So anyone who joins this or uses the product joins this collective intelligence in essence. What does that mean? It means that Armis learns about vulnerabilities from other environments. A new Log4j comes out, for instance. It's enough that, in some environments, Armis is able to see it from scanners, or from agents, or from SBOMs, or anything that basically provides information about Log4j, and Armis immediately infers or creates enrichment rules that act across the entire tenant base, or the entire client base of Armis. So very quick response to industry events, whenever something comes out, again, the results are immediate, very up to the minute, very up to the hour, but also I'd say that Armis does its own proactive asset research. We have a huge data set at our disposal, a lot of willing and able clients, and also a lot of partners within the industry that Armis leverages, but our own research is into interesting aspects within the environment. We do our own proactive research into things like TLStorm, which is kind of a bit of a bridging research and vulnerabilities between cyber physical aspect. So on the one hand, the cyber space and kind of virtual environments, but on the other hand, the actual physical space, vulnerabilities, and things like UPSs, or industrial equipment, or things like that. But I will say that also, Armis targets its research along different paths that we feel are underserved. We started a few years back research into firmwares, different types of real time operating systems. We came out with things like URGENT/11, which was research into, on the one hand, operating systems that run on two billion different devices worldwide, on the other hand, in the 40 years it existed, only 13 vulnerabilities were ever exposed or revealed about that operating system. Either it's the most secure operating system in the world, or it's just not gone through enough rigor and enough research in doing this. The type of active research we do is to complement a lot of the research going on in the industry, serve our clients better, but also provide kind of inroads, I think, for the industry to be better at what they do. >> Awesome, Nadir, thanks for sharing the insights. Great to see the research. You got to be at the cutting edge. You got to investigate, be ready for a moment's notice on all aspects of the operating environment, down to the hardware, down to the packet level, down to the any vulnerability, be ready for it. Great job. Thanks for sharing. Appreciate it. >> Absolutely. >> In a moment, Tim Everson's going to join us. He's the CSO of Kalahari Resorts and Conventions. He'll be joining me next. You're watching theCUBE, the leader in high tech coverage. I'm John Furrier. Thanks for watching. (upbeat music)

(upbeat music) >> Welcome back. We're winding down theCUBE's coverage of Red Hat Summit 2022. We're here at the Seaport in Boston. It's been two days of a little different Red Hat Summit. We're used to eight, 9,000 people. It's much smaller event this year, fewer developers or actually in terms of the mix, a lot more suits this year, which is kind of interesting to see that evolution and a big virtual audience. And I love the way, the keynotes we've noticed are a lot tighter. They're pithy, on time, they're not keeping us in the hall for three hours. So we appreciate that kind of catering to the virtual audience. Dave Vellante here with my co-host, Paul Gillin. As to say things are winding down, there was an analyst event here today, that's ended, but luckily we have Jim Mercer here as a research director at IDC. He's going to share maybe some of the learnings from that event today and this event overall, we're going to talk about DevSecOps. And Kirsten Newcomer is director of security, product management and hybrid platforms at Red Hat. Folks, welcome. >> Thank you. >> Thank you. >> Great to see you. >> Great to be here. >> Security's everywhere, right? You and I have spoken about the supply chain hacks, we've done some sort of interesting work around that and reporting around that. I feel like SolarWinds created a new awareness. You see these moments, it's Stuxnet, or WannaCry and now is SolarWinds very insidious, but security, Red Hat, it's everywhere in your portfolio. Maybe talk about the strategy. >> Sure, absolutely. We feel strongly that it's really important that security be something that is managed in a holistic way present throughout the application stack, starting with the operating system and also throughout the life cycle, which is partly where DevSecOps comes in. So Red Hat has kind of had a long history here, right? Think SELinux and Red Hat Enterprise Linux for mandatory access control. That's been a key component of securing containers in a Kubernetes environment. SELinux has demonstrated the ability to prevent or mitigate container escapes to the file system. And we just have continued to work up the stack as we go, our acquisition of stack rocks a little over a year ago, now known as Red Hat Advanced Cluster Security, gives us the opportunity to really deliver on that DevSecOps component. So Kubernetes native security solution with the ability to both help shift security left for the developers by integrating in the supply chain, but also providing a SecOps perspective for the operations and the security team and feeding information between the two to really try and do that closed infinity loop and then an additional investment more recently in sigstore and some technologies. >> Interesting. >> Yeah, is interesting. >> Go ahead. >> But Shift Left, explain to people what you mean by Shift Left for people might not be familiar with that term. >> Fair enough. For many, many years, right, IT security has been something that's largely been part of an operations environment and not something that developers tended to need to be engaged in with the exception of say source code static analysis tools. We started to see vulnerability management tools get added, but even then they tend to come after the application has been built. And I even ran a few years ago, I ran into a customer who said my security team won't let me get this information early. So Shift Left is all about making sure that there are security gates in the app dev process and information provided to the developer as early as possible. In fact, even in the IDE, Red Hat code ready dependency analytics does that, so that the developers are part of the solution and don't have to wait and get their apps stalled just before it's ready to go into deployment. >> Thank you. You've also been advocating for supply chain security, software supply chain. First of all, explain what a software supply chain is and then, what is unique about the security needs of that environment? >> Sure. And the SolarWinds example, as Dave said, really kind of has raised awareness around this. So just like we use the term supply chain, most people given kind of what's been happening with the pandemic, they've started hearing that term a lot more than they used to, right? So there's a supply chain to get your groceries, to the grocery store, food to the grocery store. There's a supply chain for manufacturing, where do the parts come for the laptops that we're all using, right? And where do they get assembled? Software has a supply chain also, right? So for years and even more so now, developers have been including open source components into the applications they build. So some of the supplies for the applications, the components of those applications, they can come from anywhere in the world. They can come from a wide range of open source projects. Developers are adding their custom code to that. All of this needs to be built together, delivered together and so when we think about a supply chain and the SolarWinds hack, right, there are a couple of elements of supply chain security that are particularly key. The executive order from May of last year, I think was partly in direct response to the SolarWinds hack. And it calls out that we need a software bill of materials. Now again, in manufacturing that's something folks are used to, I actually had the opportunity to contribute to the software package data exchange format, SPDX when it was first started, I've lost track of when that was. But an S-bomb is all about saying, what are all of those components that I'm delivering in my solution? It might be an application layer. It might be the host operating system layer, but at every layer. And if I know what's in what I'm delivering, I have the opportunity to learn more information about those components to track where does Log4Shell, right? When the Log4j or Spring4Shell, which followed shortly thereafter. When those hit, how do I find out which solutions that I'm running have the vulnerable components in them and where are they? The software bill of materials helps with that but you also have to know where, right. And that's the Ops side. I feel like I missed a piece of your question. >> No, it's not a silver bullet though, to your point and Log4j very widely used, but let's bring Jim into the conversation. So Jim, we've been talking about some of these trends, what's your focus area of research? What are you seeing as some of the mega trends in this space? >> I mean, I focus in DevOps and DevSecOps and it's interesting just talking about trends. Kirsten was mentioning the open source and if you look back five, six, seven years ago and you went to any major financial institution, you asked them if they use an open source. Oh, no. >> True. >> We don't use that, right. We wrote it all here. It's all from our developers-- >> Witchcraft. >> Yeah, right, exactly. But the reality is, they probably use a little open source back then but they didn't realize it. >> It's exactly true. >> However, today, not only are they not on versed to open source, they're seeking it out, right. So we have survey data that kind of indicates... A survey that was run kind of in late 2021 that shows that 70% of those who responded said that within the next two years 90% of their applications will be made up of open source. In other words, the content of an application, 10% will be written by themselves and 90% will come from other sources. So we're seeing these more kind of composite applications. Not, everybody's kind of, if you will, at that 90%, but applications are much more composite than they were before. So I'm pulling in pieces, but I'm taking the innovation of the community. So I not only have the innovation of my developers, but I can expand that. I can take the innovation to the community and bring that in and do things much quicker. I can also not have my developers worry about things that, maybe just kind of common stuff that's out there that might have already been written. In other words, just focus on the business logic, don't focus on, how to get orders or how to move widgets and those types of things that everybody does 'cause that's out there in open source. I'll just take that, right. I'll take it, somebody's perfected it, better than I'll ever do. I'll take that in and then I'll just focus and build my business logic on top of that. So open source has been a boom for growth. And I think we've heard a little bit of that (Kirsten laughs) in the last two days-- >> In the Keynotes. >> From Red Hat, right. But talking about the software bill of materials, and then you think about now I taking all that stuff in, I have my first level open source that I took in, it's called it component A. But behind component A is all these transitive dependencies. In other words, open source also uses open source, right? So there's this kind of this, if you will, web or nest, if you want to call it that, of transitive dependencies that need to be understood. And if I have five, six layers deep, I have a vulnerability in another component and I'm over here. Well, guess what? I picked up that vulnerability, right. Even though I didn't explicitly go for that component. So that's where understanding that software bill of materials is really important. I like to explain it as, during the pandemic, we've all experienced, there was all this contact tracing. It was a term where all came to mind. The software bill of materials is like the contact tracing for your open source, right. >> Good analogy. >> Anything that I've come in contact with, just because I came in contact with it, even though I didn't explicitly go looking for COVID, if you will, I got it, right. So in the same regard, that's how I do the contact tracing for my software. >> That 90% figure is really striking. 90% open source use is really striking, considering that it wasn't that long ago that one of the wraps on open source was it's insecure because anybody can see the code, therefore anybody can see the vulnerabilities. What changed? >> I'll say that, what changed is kind of first, the understanding that I can leapfrog and innovate with open source, right? There's more open source content out there. So as organizations had to digitally transform themselves and we've all heard the terminology around, well, hey, with the pandemic, we've leapfrog up five years of digital transformation or something along those lines, right? Open source is part of what helps those teams to do that type of leapfrog and do that type of innovation. You had to develop all of that natively, it just takes too long, or you might not have the talent to do it, right. And to find that talent to do it. So it kind of gives you that benefit. The interesting thing about what you mentioned there was, now we're hearing about all these vulnerabilities, right, in open source, that we need to contend with because the bad guys realize that I'm taking a lot of open source and they're saying, geez, that's a great way to get myself into applications. If I get myself into this one open source component, I'll get into thousands or more applications. So it's a fast path into the supply chain. And that's why it's so important that you understand where your vulnerabilities are in the software-- >> I think the visibility cuts two ways though. So when people say, it's insecure because it's visible. In fact, actually the visibility helps with security. The reality that I can go see the code, that there is a community working on finding and fixing vulnerabilities in that code. Whereas in code that is not open source it's a little bit more security by obscurity, which isn't really security. And there could well be vulnerabilities that a good hacker is going to find, but are not disclosed. So one of the other things we feel strongly about at Red Hat, frankly, is if there is a CVE that affects our code, we disclose that publicly, we have a public CVE database. And it's actually really important to us that we share that, we think we share way more information about issues in our code than most other users or consumers of open source and we work that through the broad community as well. And then also for our enterprise customers, if an issue needs to be fixed, we don't just fix it in the most recent version of the open source. We will backport that fix. And one of the challenges, if you're only addressing the most recent version, that may not be well tested, it might have other bugs, it might have other issues. When we backport a security vulnerability fix, we're able to do that to a stable version, give the customers the benefit of all the testing and use that's gone on while also fixing. >> Kirsten, can you talk about the announcements 'cause everybody's wondering, okay, now what do I do about this? What technology is there to help me? Obviously this framework, you got to follow the right processes, skill sets, all that, not to dismiss that, that's the most important part, but the announcements that you made at Red Hat Summit and how does the StackRox acquisition fit into those? >> Sure. So in particular, if we stick with DevSecOps a minute, but again, I'll do. Again for me, DevSecOps is the full life cycle and many people think of it as just that Shift Left piece. But for me, it's the whole thing. So StackRox ACS has had the ability to integrate into the CI/CD pipeline before we bought them. That continues. They don't just assess for vulnerabilities, but also for application misconfigurations, excess proof requests and helm charts, deployment YAML. So kind of the big, there are two sort of major things in the DevSecOps angle of the announcement or the supply chain angle of the announcement, which is the investment that we've been making in sigstore, signing, getting integrity of the components, the elements you're deploying is important. I have been asked for years about the ability to sign container images. The reality is that the signing technology and Red Hat signs everything we ship and always have, but the signing technology wasn't designed to be used in a CI/CD pipeline and sigstore is explicitly designed for that use case to make it easy for developers, as well as you can back it with full CO, you can back it with an OIDC based signing, keyless signing, throw away the key. Or if you want that enterprise CA, you can have that backing there too. >> And you can establish that as a protocol where you must. >> You can, right. So our pattern-- >> So that would've helped with SolarWinds. >> Absolutely. >> Because they were putting in malware and then taking it out, seeing what happened. My question was, could sigstore help? I always evaluate now everything and I'm not a security expert, but would this have helped with SolarWinds? A lot of times the answer is no. >> It's a combination. So a combination of sigstore integrated with Tekton Chains. So we ship Tekton, which is a Kubernetes supply chain pipeline. As OpenShift pipelines, we added chains to that. Chains allows you to attest every step in your pipeline. And you're doing that attestation by signing those steps so that you can validate that those steps have not changed. And in fact, the folks at SolarWinds are using Tekton Chains. They did a great talk in October at KubeCon North America on the changes they've made to their supply chain. So they're using both Tekton Chains and sigstore as part of their updated pipeline. Our pattern will allow our customers to deploy OpenShift, advanced cluster manager, advanced cluster security and Quay with security gates in place. And that include a pipeline built on Tekton with Tekton Chains there to sign those steps in the pipeline to enable signing of the code that's moving through that pipeline to store that signature in Quay and to validate the image signature upon deployment with advanced cluster security. >> So Jim, your perspective on this, Red Hat's, I mean, you care about security, security's everywhere, but you're not a security company. You follow security companies. There's like far too many of them. CISOs all say my number one challenge is lack of talent, but I have all these tools to deal with. You see new emerging companies that are doing pretty well. And then you see a company that's highly respected, like an Okta screw up the communications on a pretty benign hack. Actually, when you peel the onion on that, it's just this mess (chuckles) and it doesn't seem like it's going to get any simpler. Maybe the answer is companies like Red Hat kind of absorbing that and taking care of it. What do you see there? I mean, maybe it's great for business 'cause you've got so many companies. >> There's a lot of companies and there's certainly a lot of innovation out there and unique ways to make security easier, right. I mean, one of the keys here is to be able to make security easier for developers, right. One of the challenges with adopting DevSecOps is if DevSecOps creates a lot of friction in the process, it's hard to really... I can do it once, but I can't keep doing that and get the same kind of velocity. So I need to take the friction out of the process. And one of the challenges a lot of organizations have, and I've heard this from the development side, but I've also heard it from the InfoSec side, right. Because I take inquiry for people on InfoSec, and they're like, how do I get these developers to do what I want? And part of the challenge they have is like, I got these teams using these tools. I got those teams using those tools. And it's a similar challenge that we saw on DevOps where there's just too many, if you will, too many dang tools, right. So that is a challenge for organizations is, they're trying to kind of normalize the tools. Interestingly, we did a survey, I think around last August or something. And one of the questions was around, where do you want your security? Where do you want to get your DevSecOps security from, do you want to get it from individual vendors? Or do you want to get it from like, your platforms that you're using and deploying changes in Kubernetes. >> Great question. What did they say? >> The majority of them, they're hoping they can get it built into the platform. That's really what they want. And you see a lot of the security vendors are trying to build security platforms. Like we're not just assess tool, we're desk, we're this, whatever. And they're building platforms to kind of be that end-to-end security platform, trying to solve that problem, right, to make it easier to kind of consume the product overall, without a bunch of individual tools along the way. But certainly tool sprawl is definitely a challenge out there. Just one other point around the sigstore stuff which I love. Because that goes back to the supply chain and talking about digital providence, right. Understanding where things... How do I validate that what I gave you is what you thought it was, right. And what I like about it with Tekton Chains is because there's a couple things. Well, first of all, I don't want to just sign things after I built the binary. Well, I mean, I do want to sign it, but I want to just sign things once, right. Because all through the process, I think of it as a manufacturing plant, right. I'm making automobiles. If I check the quality of the automobile at one stage and I don't check it to the other, things have changed, right. How do I know that I did something wasn't compromised, right. So with sigstore kind of tied in with Tekton Chains, kind of gives me that view. And the other aspect I like it about is, this kind of transparency in the log, right-- >> The report component. >> Exactly. So I can see what was going on. So there is some this kind of like public scrutiny, like if something bad happened, you could go back and see what happened there and it wasn't as you were expected. >> As with most discussions on this topic, we could go for an hour because it's really important. And thank you guys for coming on and sharing your perspectives, the data. >> Our pleasure. >> And keep up the good work. Kirsten, it's on you. >> Thanks so much. >> The IDC survey said it, they want it in platforms. You're up. >> (laughs) That's right. >> All right. Good luck to both you. >> Thank you both so much. >> All right. And thank you for watching. We're back to wrap right after this short break. This is Dave Vellante for Paul Gill. You're watching theCUBE. (upbeat music)

(upbeat music) >> Hello, welcome to this CUBE conversation I'm John Furrier your host here in theCUBE in Palo Alto, California, featuring Cribl a hot startup taking over the enterprise when it comes to data pipelining, and we have a CUBE alumni who's the co-founder and CEO, Clint Sharp. Clint, great to see you again, you've been on theCUBE, you were on in 2013, great to see you, congratulations on the company that you co-founded, and leading as the chief executive officer over $200 million in funding, doing this really strong in the enterprise, congratulations thanks for joining us. >> Hey, thanks John it's really great to be back. >> You know, remember our first conversation the big data wave coming in, Hadoop World 2010, now the cloud comes in, and really the cloud native really takes data to a whole nother level. You've seeing the old data architectures being replaced with cloud scale. So the data landscape is interesting. You know, Data as Code you're hearing that term, data engineering teams are out there, data is everywhere, it's now part of how developers and companies are getting value whether it's real time, or coming out of data lakes, data is more pervasive than ever. Observability is a hot area, there's a zillion companies doing it, what are you guys doing? Where do you fit in the data landscape? >> Yeah, so what I say is that Cribl and our products and we solve the problem for our customers of the fundamental tension between data growth and budget. And so if you look at IDCs data data's growing at a 25%, CAGR, you're going to have two and a half times the amount of data in five years that you have today, and I talk to a lot of CIOs, I talk to a lot of CISOs, and the thing that I hear repeatedly is my budget is not growing at a 25% CAGR so fundamentally, how do I resolve this tension? We sell very specifically into the observability in security markets, we sell to technology professionals who are operating, you know, observability in security platforms like Splunk, or Elasticsearch, or Datadog, Exabeam, like these types of platforms they're moving, protocols like syslog, they're moving, they have lots of agents deployed on every endpoint and they're trying to figure out how to get the right data to the right place, and fundamentally you know, control cost. And we do that through our product called Stream which is what we call an observability pipeline. It allows you to take all this data, manipulate it in the stream and get it to the right place and fundamentally be able to connect all those things that maybe weren't originally intended to be connected. >> So I want to get into that new architecture if you don't mind, but let me first ask you on the problem space that you're in. So cloud native obviously instrumentating, instrumenting everything is a key thing. You mentioned data got all these tools, is the problem that there's been a sprawl of things being instrumented and they have to bring it together, or it's too costly to run all these point solutions and get it to work? What's the problem space that you're in? >> So I think customers have always been forced to make trade offs John. So the, hey I have volumes and volumes and volumes of data that's relevant to securing my enterprise, that's relevant to observing and understanding the behavior of my applications but there's never been an approach that allows me to really onboard all of that data. And so where we're coming at is giving them the tools to be able to, you know, filter out noise and waste, to be able to, you know, aggregate this high fidelity telemetry data. There's a lot of growing changes, you talk about cloud native, but digital transformation, you know, the pandemic itself and remote work all these are driving significantly greater data volumes, and vendors unsurprisingly haven't really been all that aligned to giving customers the tools in order to reshape that data, to filter out noise and waste because, you know, for many of them they're incentivized to get as much data into their platform as possible, whether that's aligned to the customer's interests or not. And so we saw an opportunity to come out and fundamentally as a customers-first company give them the tools that they need, in order to take back control of their data. >> I remember those conversations even going back six years ago the whole cloud scale, horizontally scalable applications, you're starting to see data now being stuck in the silos now to have high, good data you have to be observable, which means you got to be addressable. So you now have to have a horizontal data plane if you will. But then you get to the question of, okay, what data do I need at the right time? So is the Data as Code, data engineering discipline changing what new architectures are needed? What changes in the mind of the customer once they realize that they need this new way to pipe data and route data around, or make it available for certain applications? What are the key new changes? >> Yeah, so I think one of the things that we've been seeing in addition to the advent of the observability pipeline that allows you to connect all the things, is also the advent of an observability lake as well. Which is allowing people to store massively greater quantities of data, and also different types of data. So data that might not traditionally fit into a data warehouse, or might not traditionally fit into a data lake architecture, things like deployment artifacts, or things like packet captures. These are binary types of data that, you know, it's not designed to work in a database but yet they want to be able to ask questions like, hey, during the Log4Shell vulnerability, one of all my deployment artifacts actually had Log4j in it in an affected version. These are hard questions to answer in today's enterprise. Or they might need to go back to full fidelity packet capture data to try to understand that, you know, a malicious actor's movement throughout the enterprise. And we're not seeing, you know, we're seeing vendors who have great log indexing engines, and great time series databases, but really what people are looking for is the ability to store massive quantities of data, five times, 10 times more data than they're storing today, and they're doing that in places like AWSS3, or in Azure Blob Storage, and we're just now starting to see the advent of technologies we can help them query that data, and technologies that are generally more specifically focused at the type of persona that we sell to which is a security professional, or an IT professional who's trying to understand the behaviors of their applications, and we also find that, you know, general-purpose data processing technologies are great for the enterprise, but they're not working for the people who are running the enterprise, and that's why you're starting to see the concepts like observability pipelines and observability lakes emerge, because they're targeted at these people who have a very unique set of problems that are not being solved by the general-purpose data processing engines. >> It's interesting as you see the evolution of more data volume, more data gravity, then you have these specialty things that need to be engineered for the business. So sounds like observability lake and pipelining of the data, the data pipelining, or stream you call it, these are new things that they bolt into the architecture, right? Because they have business reasons to do it. What's driving that? Sounds like security is one of them. Are there others that are driving this behavior? >> Yeah, I mean it's the need to be able to observe applications and observe end-user behavior at a fine-grain detail. So, I mean I often use examples of like bank teller applications, or perhaps, you know, the app that you're using to, you know, I'm going to be flying in a couple of days. I'll be using their app to understand whether my flight's on time. Am I getting a good experience in that particular application? Answering the question of is Clint getting a good experience requires massive quantities of data, and your application and your service, you know, I'm going to sit there and look at, you know, American Airlines which I'm flying on Thursday, I'm going to be judging them based on off of my experience. I don't care what the average user's experience is I care what my experience is. And if I call them up and I say, hey, and especially for the enterprise usually this is much more for, you know, in-house applications and things like that. They call up their IT department and say, hey, this application is not working well, I don't know what's going on with it, and they can't answer the question of what was my individual experience, they're living with, you know, data that they can afford to store today. And so I think that's why you're starting to see the advent of these new architectures is because digital is so absolutely critical to every company's customer experience, that they're needing to be able to answer questions about an individual user's experience which requires significantly greater volumes of data, and because of significantly greater volumes of data, that requires entirely new approaches to aggregating that data, bringing the data in, and storing that data. >> Talk to me about enabling customer choice when it comes around controlling their data. You mentioned that before we came on camera that you guys are known for choice. How do you enable customer choice and control over their data? >> So I think one of the biggest problems I've seen in the industry over the last couple of decades is that vendors come to customers with hugely valuable products that make their lives better but it also requires them to maintain a relationship with that vendor in order to be able to continue to ask questions of that data. And so customers don't get a lot of optionality in these relationships. They sign multi-year agreements, they look to try to start another, they want to go try out another vendor, they want to add new technologies into their stack, and in order to do that they're often left with a choice of well, do I roll out like get another agent, do I go touch 10,000 computers, or a 100,000 computers in order to onboard this data? And what we have been able to offer them is the ability to reuse their existing deployed footprints of agents and their existing data collection technologies, to be able to use multiple tools and use the right tool for the right job, and really give them that choice, and not only give them the choice once, but with the concepts of things like the observability lake and replay, they can go back in time and say, you know what? I wanted to rehydrate all this data into a new tool, I'm no longer locked in to the way one vendor stores this, I can store this data in open formats and that's one of the coolest things about the observability late concept is that customers are no longer locked in to any particular vendor, the data is stored in open formats and so that gives them the choice to be able to go back later and choose any vendor, because they may want to do some AI or ML on that type of data and do some model training. They may want to be able to forward that data to a new cloud data warehouse, or try a different vendor for log search or a different vendor for time series data. And we're really giving them the choice and the tools to do that in a way in which was simply not possible before. >> You know you are bring up a point that's a big part of the upcoming AWS startup series Data as Code, the data engineering role has become so important and the word engineering is a key word in that, but there's not a lot of them, right? So like how many data engineers are there on the planet, and hopefully more will come in, come from these great programs in computer science but you got to engineer something but you're talking about developing on data, you're talking about doing replays and rehydrating, this is developing. So Data as Code is now a reality, how do you see Data as Code evolving from your perspective? Because it implies DevOps, Infrastructure as Code was DevOps, if Data as Code then you got DataOps, AIOps has been around for a while, what is Data as Code? And what does that mean to you Clint? >> I think for our customers, one, it means a number of I think sort of after-effects that maybe they have not yet been considering. One you mentioned which is it's hard to acquire that talent. I think it is also increasingly more critical that people who were working in jobs that used to be purely operational, are now being forced to learn, you know, developer centric tooling, things like GET, things like CI/CD pipelines. And that means that there's a lot of education that's going to have to happen because the vast majority of the people who have been doing things in the old way from the last 10 to 20 years, you know, they're going to have to get retrained and retooled. And I think that one is that's a huge opportunity for people who have that skillset, and I think that they will find that their compensation will be directly correlated to their ability to have those types of skills, but it also represents a massive opportunity for people who can catch this wave and find themselves in a place where they're going to have a significantly better career and more options available to them. >> Yeah and I've been thinking about what you just said about your customer environment having all these different things like Datadog and other agents. Those people that rolled those out can still work there, they don't have to rip and replace and then get new training on the new multiyear enterprise service agreement that some other vendor will sell them. You come in and it sounds like you're saying, hey, stay as you are, use Cribl, we'll have some data engineering capabilities for you, is that right? Is that? >> Yup, you got it. And I think one of the things that's a little bit different about our product and our market John, from kind of general-purpose data processing is for our users they often, they're often responsible for many tools and data engineering is not their full-time job, it's actually something they just need to do now, and so we've really built tool that's designed for your average security professional, your average IT professional, yes, we can utilize the same kind of DataOps techniques that you've been talking about, CI/CD pipelines, GITOps, that sort of stuff, but you don't have to, and if you're really just already familiar with administering a Datadog or a Splunk, you can get started with our product really easily, and it is designed to be able to be approachable to anybody with that type of skillset. >> It's interesting you, when you're talking you've remind me of the big wave that was coming, it's still here, shift left meant security from the beginning. What do you do with data shift up, right, down? Like what do you, what does that mean? Because what you're getting at here is that if you're a developer, you have to deal with data but you don't have to be a data engineer but you can be, right? So we're getting in this new world. Security had that same problem. Had to wait for that group to do things, creating tension on the CI/CD pipelining, so the developers who are building apps had to wait. Now you got shift left, what is data, what's the equivalent of the data version of shift left? >> Yeah so we're actually doing this right now. We just announced a new product a week ago called Cribl Edge. And this is enabling us to move processing of this data rather than doing it centrally in the stream to actually push this processing out to the edge, and to utilize a lot of unused capacity that you're already paying AWS, or paying Azure for, or maybe in your own data center, and utilize that capacity to do the processing rather than having to centralize and aggregate all of this data. So I think we're going to see a really interesting, and left from our side is towards the origination point rather than anything else, and that allows us to really unlock a lot of unused capacity and continue to drive the kind of cost down to make more data addressable back to the original thing we talked about the tension between data growth, if we want to offer more capacity to people, if we want to be able to answer more questions, we need to be able to cost-effectively query a lot more data. >> You guys had great success in the enterprise with what you got going on. Obviously the funding is just the scoreboard for that. You got good growth, what are the use cases, or what's the customer look like that's working for you where you're winning, or maybe said differently what pain points are out there the customer might be feeling right now that Cribl could fit in and solve? How would you describe that ideal persona, or environment, or problem, that the customer may have that they say, man, Cribl's a perfect fit? >> Yeah, this is a person who's working on tooling. So they administer a Splunk, or an Elastic, or a Datadog, they may be in a network operations center, a security operation center, they are struggling to get data into their tools, they're always at capacity, their tools always at the redline, they really wish they could do more for the business. They're kind of tired of being this department of no where everybody comes to them and says, "hey, can I get this data in?" And they're like, "I wish, but you know, we're all out of capacity, and you know, we have, we wish we could help you but we frankly can't right now." We help them by routing that data to multiple locations, we help them control costs by eliminating noise and waste, and we've been very successful at that in, you know, logos, like, you know, like a Shutterfly, or a, blanking on names, but we've been very successful in the enterprise, that's not great, and we continue to be successful with major logos inside of government, inside of banking, telco, et cetera. >> So basically it used to be the old hyperscalers, the ones with the data full problem, now everyone's got the, they're full of data and they got to really expand capacity and have more agility and more engineering around contributions of the business sounds like that's what you guys are solving. >> Yup and hopefully we help them do a little bit more with less. And I think that's a key problem for our enterprises, is that there's always a limit on the number of human resources that they have available at their disposal, which is why we try to make the software as easy to use as possible, and make it as widely applicable to those IT and security professionals who are, you know, kind of your run-of-the-mill tools administrator, our product is very approachable for them. >> Clint great to see you on theCUBE here, thanks for coming on. Quick plug for the company, you guys looking for hiring, what's going on? Give a quick update, take 30 seconds to give a plug. >> Yeah, absolutely. We are absolutely hiring cribl.io/jobs, we need people in every function from sales, to marketing, to engineering, to back office, GNA, HR, et cetera. So please check out our job site. If you are interested it in learning more you can go to cribl.io. We've got some great online sandboxes there which will help you educate yourself on the product, our documentation is freely available, you can sign up for up to a terabyte a day on our cloud, go to cribl.cloud and sign up free today. The product's easily accessible, and if you'd like to speak with us we'd love to have you in our community, and you can join the community from cribl.io as well. >> All right, Clint Sharp co-founder and CEO of Cribl, thanks for coming to theCUBE. Great to see you, I'm John Furrier your host thanks for watching. (upbeat music)

(gentle music) >> High profile cyber attacks like the SolarWinds hack, the JBS meat and the Florida municipality breach, have heightened awareness of how exposed, critical infrastructure has become. Because the pandemic has shifted employees to remote modes of work, hackers now have a much easier target to fish for credentials and exploit less secure home networks. Take the recent Log4j vulnerability, that's yet another example, of how hackers can take advantage of weak links in the chain. Now data storage companies have an important role to play in fighting cyber crime. Ultimately, they provide the equivalent of a bank vault if you will, and are responsible for storing and protecting the data that cyber criminals are targeting to steal or encrypt, in an effort to hold companies hostage, in a ransomware attack. Now in an effort to help customers understand how to protect themselves from such vulnerabilities, and how one storage company is addressing these challenges, the Cube is hosting this special presentation InfiniGuard Cyber Resilience: New Cybercrime Solutions. And we're going to speak with Eric Herzog, who's the Chief Marketing Officer of Infinidat, and then we'll bring in Stan Wysocki who is the president of Mark III Systems who is either an expert in IT infrastructure and artificial intelligence. First, let me welcome Eric Herzog back to the Cube, hello, Eric. >> Great, Dave, thank you very much, always love talking to you and the Cube, about leading edge technology solutions for end users. >> Alright let's do it. So, first we want to address the transformation and big business progress of Infinidat. New CEO, he's injected new management, new head of marketing obviously, Phil Bullinger is really been focused on accelerating the company's original vision, and doing so, Eric, in the typically unconventional style of Infinidat, you just put out a press release, capping 2021, can you set the stage for us, and give us the business update? >> Sure, so of course we summarized our 2021 results. What a very, very strong year. What a very, very strong year. We increased our bookings over 40% year to year. Even in Q4, we increased our bookings over 68%. And over 25% of the fortune 50 use an Infinidat solution, either our InfiniBox, or InfiniBox SSA, all flash array, or our Infiniguard, which is the focus of the launch we're doing today, on February 9th. >> Yeah, so I always said that Infinidat is one of the best kept secrets in the storage business. So let's talk about that hard news, what you launched on February 9th, and why it's important. >> Well, what we've done is we've got a high end enterprise purpose-built backup appliance, the InfiniGuard. We made some substantial advances in that. The key is focused on cyber resilience with what we call our infinisafe technology. Infinisafe incorporates a number of subsets, of cyber resilience from immutable snapshots, to logical air gapping, to fenced isolated networks, to almost instantaneous recovery for your backup data sets. In addition, we also dramatically improved the performance of the backup and recovery, which means, for example, if a backup window was taking three hours, now the backup window on that primary backup dataset could take only an hour and a half, which of course, as we all know backup dramatically impacts the performance of your primary applications, your primary servers, and your primary storage. So we've done both the cyber resilience aspect and then, on modern data protection, making sure that the backup and recovery are faster, for a traditional backup workload. >> So tell us a little bit more about Infinisafe, and specifically, Eric I'm interested in how it's different from other solutions, don't make me a liar, I had said, you guys always kind of take nonconventional approaches so tell us, add a little color to Infinisafe and how is it really unique from competitors? >> Sure, well Infinisafe incorporates as I mentioned, several different aspects. First of all, the immutable snapshots. So immutable snapshots can not be deleted, they cannot be altered, you cannot accelerate the rate, you can set the rate of immutable stuff, do I want to do it once a day? Do I want to do it twice a day? And obviously if a hacker could get in, you could accelerate that. Our immutable snaps are physically separated from the management schema. So the inside of an Infiniguard, we have what we call a data dedupe appliance, and that data dedupe engine, it goes ahead and it applies data reduction technology, to that back up data set. But we've divorced the immutable snapshots from the management of what we now call a DDE. So the DDE has kind of access of giving you that gap, that logical gap between the management schema of a DDE, and of course the immutable snapshot. We also combine that with this air gap technology, you've got the immutability and the air gap, which is local in that instance, but we also can do it remotely. So we can replicate from one Infiniguard in data center A, to a different Infiniguard in data center B. You then can configure that backup data set with the same immutable snapshot, and the same length, one day, half a day, six hours, whatever you choose, and then of course it'll have that same capability. The third thing we've done is very unique. We have a fenced isolated network to perform forensics. So, if the Cube has a cyber or malware attack, you need to make sure that once you've cleaned it up, off the primary storage, the primary servers, that you recover, a known good data set. So we set up this isolated fence network in which to perform that forensic analysis, to give you the appropriate good recover point. However, unlike many of our competitors, we can do it with a single InfiniBox. Some of our competitors, right on their websites say, you need two of their purpose-built backup appliances, to do cyber resilience. Meaning, twice the CapEx and twice the OpEx, which we can do with a single Infiniguard solution. And then lastly is our near instantaneous recovery. As you know, we're recovering backup data sets. We can make between 15 and 30 minutes time, the backup data set fully accessible to the backup admin or the storage admin to use their Commvault, their Veeam, their Veritas, their IBM Spectrum Protect, or whatever their backup software is, to do recovery from the InfiniGuard box, back to the primary storage using of course the backup software that they created the original dataset with. That is very unique. When you look out in the industry and look at, whether it be purpose-built backup competitors, or whether you look at primary storage competitors, almost no one talks about the speed of their recovery, and the one or two that do, talk about recovering the data set. We recover the entire environment. We are ready to go, and the backup admin, if they were, for example, Commvault, Veeam or Veritas, they could immediately start the backup, as soon as we did our recovery, which again, takes between 15 and 30 minutes, independent of the data set size. That could be 50 terabytes, it could be a petabyte, it could be two petabytes. And even two petabytes of data can be available in 15 to 30 minutes. And then of course, the backup admin can restore from that backup dataset. Very powerful and very unique in those aspects. >> Whilst the reason why this is so important is like I said, it's like the bank vault, because hackers are going to go after that backup corpus that's where the gold is, that's where all the data is. So this all really sounds good. But there's more than Infinisafe in this launch. What else should we know? >> Well, the other thing we've done is dramatically improved the performance of the purpose-built backup plants at the core. So for example, the last time we publicly announced our numbers, we were at 74 terabytes an hour, now we're 180 terabytes an hour. So of course, as we all know, when you do a backup, it impacts the performance of the primary applications, the primary servers and the primary storage. So if that backup window was taking three hours, now that we've more than doubled the performance, you could be up to 50% better. So a three hour backup window, if that's what the dataset took to be backed up, now we can get that down to an hour and a half or even faster. So that of course minimizes the impact on primary storage, primary applications, and of course your primary storage, making it much, much more efficient, from a backup perspective, and of course less impact on the primary applications, the primary servers, and primary storage. >> So I've talked to a number of Infinidat customers, they're very loyal and kind of passionate. So I wonder if you could kind of put that perspective on this discussion. The impact that InfiniGuard, this announcement, that's going to have for your customers, paint a picture as to how it's going to change their business. >> Sure, so let me give you an example. One of our customers is a cloud service buyer, in North America, they focus only on healthcare. So here's a couple of key benefits that they got. First of all, they use our integration with two different backup vendors. They don't have one, they have two. So we're tightly integrated with our backup software partners. They got a 40% cost savings on CapEX, compared to the previous vendor that they had. And, they used to be able to do 30,000 backup per day, now they can do 90,000 backup a day. And by the way, that's all with the previous version of InfiniGuard, not the version we just announced on the 9th. One of our other customers, which is in AMEA and they happened to be an energy company, they were using purpose-built backup from the other vendor, and they had 14 of them, seven in data center one, and seven in data center two. With InfiniGuard, they've got one in data center one, and one in data center two. So 14 purpose-built backup appliances consolidated down into two. And on top of that, those purpose-built backup appliances from the other vendor actually had a couple recovery failures, where they were not able to recover the data. They've been installed for a year now, they've had zero recovers, zero recovery failures, whereas the previous vendor had some. And lastly, let's talk about a large global fortune financial services. So, one of the biggest in the industry, their cost savings from their previous vendor was 46%. In addition, when you look at their cyber resilience design, they were using one of those vendors that probably talks about needing two system products to do their cyber resiliency. They again were able to take those two systems out, and use one InfiniGuard solution. Again, reducing both their capital expenditure, two going to one. And then the operational expenditure, they only have to manage one InfiniGuard versus two of the other guys appliances. Those are just three examples all over the world. One in cloud service providing, one in the energy space, and one a global fortune 500 financial services company. Just some real world examples. And all those by the way, Dave, were before the enhancements of Infinisafe, and before the additional performance we've added in the launch of InfiniGuard on February 9th. >> So like I'm just kind of sketching out the business case, you know, put my CFO hat on. So you're lowering costs cause you're consolidating, so that means I need less hardware and software. But also there's probably labor costs associated with that. If I could do it faster with less resources, I got less stuff to manage. You're accelerating the backup time, so that frees up resources that I can apply elsewhere, recovery, you know, is really important. So I'm inferring faster recovery, all this lowers my risk, and then I can sort of calculate the probability of having data loss, and then what that means to my business. Am I getting that right? >> Yeah, yeah. And in fact, the other impact is on your primary service and your primary storage. If the backup window shrinks, then you're not slowing down that SAP app, that Oracle app, you know, that SQL app, whatever you're running, whether that be the financials, whether that be your logistics, whether it be your manufacturing system, every time you turn on that backup, to do that backup, that backup window slows you down. So cutting that in half has an impact on the real-world application side, which obviously most storage guys, you know, it's hard for us to quantify. But you are taking the impact of backup, and basically reducing it, if you will shrinking the backup window, so their primary applications don't get hammered as much by the backup while they're still trying to run that SAP, that Oracle or that SQL workload. >> And you're not a backup software vendor, so I have optionality there. I can pretty much choose all the popular, you know. >> Absolutely, so Veeam, Veritas, Commvault, IBM Spectrum Protect, all the majors. And in fact, one of the players I mentioned, as you were talking about the end-users, they use two different backup packages, two of 'em. So, two of the major vendors that I named, we work with them just within one account. So, we're very flexible, the user picks what they want from a backup software perspective, and we can work with anything. So, whatever they want to use, is fine with us. We integrate with all of them, we have integration, for example, also with VMware, for vVols and other aspects in container integration, so you know, whether it be our purpose-built backup appliance, InfiniGuard, or what we do with the InfiniBox, we always make sure we integrate with the surrounding environment. 'Cause storage is not an island, storage needs to exist in your data center, or your hybrid cloud data center, or what you're doing for containers. So we make sure we have integration with our InfiniBox, our InfiniBox SSA, all flash. And of course the product we're enhancing today, the InfiniGuard. >> Yeah, integration is super important in the enterprise. Enterprises want solutions, they're busy. (laughs) They don't have unlimited budget to go, you know, plugging stuff together. So, okay Eric, we got to leave it there. Thank you so much. >> Great, thank you very much Dave. Always love talking to the Cube. >> Okay, in a moment Stan Wysocki is coming in. He's the president of Mark III Systems. He's going to join us for a drill down on how InfiniGuard is impacting customers. You're watching the Cube, your global leader, in enterprise tech coverage. (gentle music)

>> So Alex, we're going to do, this is a different segment so I'll do a break, okay. What's that? Yeah, yeah. The 2019 SolarWinds hack represents a new threat milestone in the technology industry. The hackers, they patiently waited and evolved their intrusion over several years, literally. They lived in stealth. They tested, they retested their techniques and they use very sophisticated methods to get into email systems, networks, authentication systems, and numerous points in the software supply chain to replicate the malicious code at massive scale. Now they use techniques like they would insert malware steal data, and then they'd remove the malicious code before it was discovered. And so many other advanced approaches were used to cover their tracks. Now the really scary thing about this breach is people often think, oh, I'm good. Thankfully, I don't use SolarWinds, but it's not true. You're not safe because the domino effect of this hack has created massive concerns. We actually, to this day, we don't know the true scope of this attack and who really was impacted. And we may never know. Connecting all the dots on this breach is extremely difficult. Moreover, new threats like those exposed in the recent Log4j vulnerability, seemed to hit the news cycle weekly. And they further underscore the risk to organizations, not just large companies by the way, but small businesses, mid-size organizations and individuals. Hello, my name is Dave Vellante, and welcome to theCUBE's special look at managing risk in the digital supply chain, made possible by Red Hat. Today we're going to hear from some of the top experts that will help you better understand how to think about the exposures in the software supply chain, some of the steps we can all take to reduce our risks and how an endless game of escalation will likely play out over the next decade. Up next is our first segment hosted by Dave Nicholson of theCUBE. He's with Luke Hinds and Vincent Danen of Red Hat. They're going to talk about where the greatest threats exist. How to think about open source versus other commercial software. And discuss ways organizations can reduce their risks going forward. Let's get started. I'm going to do that again. Same one, I'll do each one twice. The 2019 SolarWinds hack represents a new threat milestone in the technology industry. The hackers, they patiently waited and evolved their intrusion over several years, literally. They lived in stealth. They tested and they retested their techniques and used very sophisticated methods to get into email systems, networks, authentication systems in numerous points in the software supply chain to replicate the malicious code at massive scale. They would use techniques like inserting malware and then they would steal data. And then they would remove the code before it was discovered. And they use many other advanced approaches to cover their tracks. The really scary thing about this breach is, people often think, oh, well, I'm good. Thankfully, I don't use SolarWinds, but it's not true you're not safe, because the domino effect of this hack it's created a massive massive concerns throughout the industry. We actually to this day, we don't know the true scope of this attack and we don't even know who was impacted. We may never know. So connecting all the dots in this breach is extremely difficult. Moreover, new threats like those exposed in the recent Log4j vulnerability, they seem to hit the news like weekly. And they further underscore the risks that organizations face, not just large companies by the way, small businesses, mid-size organizations and individuals. Hello, my name is Dave Vellante, and welcome to theCUBE's special look at managing risk in the digital supply chain, made possible by Red Hat. Today, we're going to hear from some of the top experts that will help you better understand how to think about the exposures in the software supply chain, some of the steps that we can all take to reduce our risks and how an endless game of escalation is likely going to play out over the next decade. Up next is our first segment hosted by Dave Nicholson of theCUBE. He's with Luke Hinds and Vincent Danen of Red Hat. They're going to talk about where the greatest threats exist and how to think about open source versus other commercial software. And discuss ways that organizations can reduce their risk going forward. Let's get started. When we return Andrea Hall, a specialist solution architect and project manager for security and compliance, along with Andrew Block, who is a distinguished architect, both from Red Hat will join me. You're watching theCUBE, the global leader in enterprise tech coverage. Now when we return Andrea Hall, who's a specialist solutions architect and project manager for security and compliance will join me along with Andrew Block, who's a distinguished architect. They're both from Red Hat. You're watching theCUBE, the global leader in enterprise tech coverage. So look, I wish I could say there's an end to these threats, there isn't. They will continue indefinitely. Now the adversaries they're well-funded, they're motivated and sophisticated. Your job as practitioners is to make it less profitable for hackers. At the end of the day, this is a business for them and the hackers want value it's all about ROI. That means benefit over cost. So if you can increase the denominator, it lowers their value and they'll go elsewhere to fish in a more productive place. The hard reality is bad user practices are going to trump good security every time. And that's where the vulnerability starts. So shoring up the basics, that's table stakes. Beyond that, working with strong technology partners can bring expertise to compliment your team's skills and reduce the threat against these sophisticated attacks. We hope this program was informative and will inspire you to take action. All of these videos are available on demand, check out thecube.net and theCUBE's and Red Hat's, social channels, and a variety of other places that we'll share with the community. Thanks to our guests today for Dave Nicholson and the entire CUBE team, this is Dave Vellante. Thanks for watching, and we'll see you next time. Do that again. (cough) Excuse me. So look, I wish I could say there's an end. I'll try it again. So look, I wish I could say there's an end to these threats, there isn't. They will continue indefinitely. The adversaries they're well-funded, they're motivated and they're sophisticated. Your job as practitioners is to try and make it less profitable for the hackers. At the end of the day, this is a business for them. And the hackers, what do they want? They want value. It's all about ROI for them. That means benefit over cost. If you can increase the denominator, it lowers their value and they're going to go elsewhere, and they'll fish in more productive places. The hard reality is that bad user practices will trump good security every time. And that's where the vulnerability starts. So shoring up the basics, that's table stakes. Now beyond that, working with strong technology partners can bring expertise to compliment your team's skills, and reduce the threat against these sophisticated attacks. We hope this program was informative and will inspire you to take action. All of these videos that are available on demand at thecube.net and both theCUBE's and Red Hat's social channels, and a variety of other places that we'll share with the community. Thanks to all our guests today for Dave Nicholson and the entire CUBE team. This is Dave Vellante. I appreciate you watching and we'll see you next time.

(upbeat music) >> Hello, and welcome back to AWS Startup Showcase, I'm John Furrier, your host. This is the Hero panel, the AWS Heroes. These are folks that have a lot of experience in Open Source, having fun building great projects and commercializing the value and best practices of Open Source innovation. We've got some great guests here. Liz Rice, Chief Open Source Officer, Isovalent. CUBE alumni, great to see you. Brian LeRoux, who is the Co-founder and CTO of begin.com. Erica Windisch who's an Architect for Developer Experience. AWS Hero, also CUBE alumni. Casey Lee, CTO Gaggle. Doing some great stuff in ed tech. Great collection of experts and experienced folks doing some fun stuff, welcome to this conversation this CUBE panel. >> Hi. >> Thanks for having us. >> Hello. >> Let's go down the line. >> I don't normally do this, but since we're remote and we have such great guests, go down the line and talk about why Open Source is important to you guys. What projects are you currently working on? And what's the coolest thing going on there? Liz we'll start with you. >> Okay, so I am very involved in the world of Cloud Native. I'm the chair of the technical oversight committee for the Cloud Native Computing Foundation. So that means I get to see a lot of what's going on across a very broad range of Cloud Native projects. More specifically, Isovalent. I focus on Cilium, which is it's based on a technology called EBPF. That is to me, probably the most exciting technology right now. And then finally, I'm also involved in an organization called OpenUK, which is really pushing for more use of open technologies here in the United Kingdom. So spread around lots of different projects. And I'm in a really fortunate position, I think, to see what's happening with lots of projects and also the commercialization of lots of projects. >> Awesome, Brian what project are you working on? >> Working project these days called Architect. It's a Open Source project built on top of AWSM. It adds a lot of sugar and terseness to the SM experience and just makes it a lot easier to work with and get started. AWS can be a little bit intimidating to people at times. And the Open Source community is stepping up to make some of that bond ramp a little bit easier. And I'm also an Apache member. And so I keep a hairy eyeball on what's going on in that reality all the time. And I've been doing this open-source thing for quite a while, and yeah, I love it. It's a great thing. It's real science. We get to verify each other's work and we get to expand and build on human knowledge. So that's a huge honor to just even be able to do that and I feel stoked to be here so thanks for having me. >> Awesome, yeah, and totally great. Erica, what's your current situation going on here? What's happening? >> Sure, so I am currently working on developer experience of a number of Open Source STKS and CLI components from my current employer. And previously, recently I left New Relic where I was working on integrating with OpenTelemetry, as well as a number of other things. Before that I was a maintainer of Docker and of OpenStack. So I've been in this game for a while as well. And I tend to just put my fingers in a lot of little pies anywhere from DVD players 20 years ago to a lot of this open telemetry and monitoring and various STKs and developer tools is where like Docker and OpenStack and the STKs that I work on now, all very much focusing on developer as the user. >> Yeah, you're always on the wave, Erica great stuff. Casey, what's going on? Do you got some great ed techs happening? What's happening with you? >> Yeah, sure. The primary Open Source project that I'm contributing to right now is ACT. This is a tool I created a couple of years back when GitHub Actions first came out, and my motivation there was I'm just impatient. And that whole commit, push, wait time where you're testing out your pipelines is painful. And so I wanted to build a tool that allowed developers to test out their GitHub Actions workflows locally. And so this tool uses Docker containers to emulate, to get up action environment and gives you fast feedback on those workflows that you're building. Lot of innovation happening at GitHub. And so we're just trying to keep up and continue to replicate those new features functionalities in the local runner. And the biggest challenge I've had with this project is just keeping up with the community. We just passed 20,000 stars, and it'd be it's a normal week to get like 10 PRs. So super excited to announce just yesterday, actually I invited four of the most active contributors to help me with maintaining the project. And so this is like a big deal for me, letting the project go and bringing other people in to help lead it. So, yeah, huge shout out to those folks that have been helping with driving that project. So looking forward to what's next for it. >> Great, we'll make sure the SiliconANGLE riders catch that quote there. Great call out. Let's start, Brian, you made me realize when you mentioned Apache and then you've been watching all the stuff going on, it brings up the question of the evolution of Open Source, and the commercialization trends have been very interesting these days. You're seeing CloudScale really impact also with the growth of code. And Liz, if you remember, the Linux Foundation keeps making projections and they keep blowing past them every year on more and more code and more and more entrance coming in, not just individuals, corporations. So you starting to see Netflix donates something, you got Lyft donate some stuff, becomes a project company forms around it. There's a lot of entrepreneurial activity that's creating this new abstraction layers, new platforms, not just tools. So you start to see a new kickup trajectory with Open Source. You guys want to comment on this because this is going to impact how fast the enterprise will see value here. >> I think a really great example of that is a project called Backstage that's just come out of Spotify. And it's going through the incubation process at the CNCF. And that's why it's front of mind for me right now, 'cause I've been working on the due diligence for that. And the reason why I thought it was interesting in relation to your question is it's spun out of Spotify. It's fully Open Source. They have a ton of different enterprises using it as this developer portal, but they're starting to see some startups emerging offering like a hosted managed version of Backstage or offering services around Backstage or offering commercial plugins into Backstage. And I think it's really fascinating to see those ecosystems building up around a project and different ways that people can. I'm a big believer. You cannot sell the Open Source code, but you can sell other things that create value around Open Source projects. So that's really exciting to see. >> Great point. Anyone else want to weigh in and react to that? Because it's the new model. It's not the old way. I mean, I remember when I was in college, we had the Pirate software. Open Source wasn't around. So you had to deal under the table. Now it's free. But I mean the old way was you had to convince the enterprise, like you've got a hard knit, it builds the community and the community manage the quality of the code. And then you had to build the company to make sure they could support it. Now the companies are actually involved in it, right? And then new startups are forming faster. And the proof points are shorter and highly accelerated for that. I mean, it's a whole new- >> It's a Cambrian explosion, and it's great. It's one of those things that it's challenging for the new developers because they come in and they're like, "Whoa, what is all this stuff that I'm supposed to figure out?" And there's no right answer and there's no wrong answer. There's just tons of it. And I think that there's a desire for us to have one sort of well-known trot and happy path, that audience we're a lot better with a more diverse community, with lots of options, with lots of ways to approach these problems. And I think it's just great. A challenge that we have with all these options and all these Cambrian explosion of projects and all these competing ideas, right now, the sustainability, it's a bit of a tricky question to answer. We know that there's a commercialization aspect that helps us fund these projects, but how we compose the open versus the commercial source is still a bit of a tricky question and a tough one for a lot of folks. >> Erica, would you chime in on that for a second. I want to get your angle on that, this experience and all this code, and I'm a new person, I'm an existing person. Do I get like a blue check mark and verify? I mean, these are questions like, well, how do you navigate? >> Yeah, I think this has been something happening for a while. I mean, back in the early OpenStack days, 2010, for instance, Rackspace Open Sourcing, OpenStack and ANSU Labs and so forth, and then trying, having all these companies forming in creating startups around this. I started at a company called Cloudccaling back in late 2010, and we had some competitors such as Piston and so forth where a lot of the ANSUL Labs people went. But then, the real winners, I think from OpenStack ended up being the enterprises that jumped in. We had Red Hat in particular, as well as HP and IBM jumping in and investing in OpenStack, and really proving out a lot of... not that it was the first time, but this is when we started seeing billions of dollars pouring into Open Source projects and Open Source Foundations, such as the OpenStack Foundation, which proceeded a lot of the things that we now see with the Linux Foundation, which was then created a little bit later. And at the same time, I'm also reflecting a little bit what Brian said because there are projects that don't get funded, that don't get the same attention, but they're also getting used quite significantly. Things like Log4j really bringing this to the spotlight in terms of projects that are used everywhere by everything with significant outsized impacts on the industry that are not getting funded, that aren't flashy enough, that aren't exciting enough because it's just logging, but a vulnerability in it brings every everything and everybody down and has possibly billions of dollars of impact to our industry because nobody wanted to fund this project. >> I think that brings up the commercialization point about maybe bringing a venture capital model in saying, "Hey, that boring little logging thing could be a key ingredient for say solving some observability problems so I think let's put some cash." Again then we'd never seen that before. Now you're starting to see that kind of a real smart investment thesis going into Open Source projects. I mean, Promethease, Crafter, these are projects that turned off companies. This is turning up companies. >> A decade ago, there was no money in Dev tools that I think that's been fully debunked now. They used to be a concept that the venture community believed, but there's just too much evidence to the contrary, the companies like Cash Court, Datadog, the list goes on and on. I think the challenge for the Open Source (indistinct) comes back to foundations and working (indistinct) these developers make this code safe and secure. >> Casey, what's your reaction to all of this? You've got, so a project has gained some traction, got some momentum. There's a lot of mission critical. I won't say white spaces, but the opportunities in the big cloud game happening. And there's a lot of, I won't say too many entrepreneurial, but there's a lot of community action happening that's precommercialization that's getting traction. How does this all develop naturally and then vector in quickly when it hits? >> Yeah, I want to go back to the Log4j topic real quick. I think that it's a great example of an area that we need to do better at. And there was a cool article that Rob Pike wrote describing how to quantify the criticality. I think that's sort of quantifying criticality was the article he wrote on how to use metrics, to determine how valuable, how important a piece of Open Source is to the community. And we really need to highlight that more. We need a way to make it more clear how important this software is, how many people depend on it and how many people are contributing to it. And because right now we all do that. Like if I'm going to evaluate an Open Source software, sure, I'll look at how many stars it has and how many contributors it has. But I got to go through and do all that work myself and come up with. It would be really great if we had an agreed upon method for ranking the criticality of software, but then also the risk, hey, that this is used by a ton of people, but nobody's contributing to it anymore. That's a concern. And that would be great to potential users of that to signal whether or not it makes sense. The Open Source Security Foundation, just getting off the ground, they're doing some work in this space, and I'm really excited to see where they go with that looking at ways to stop score critically. >> Well, this brings up a good point while we've got everyone here, let's take a plug and plug a project you think that's not getting the visibility it needs. Let's go through each of you, point out a project that you think people should be looking at and talking about that might get some free visibility here. Anyone want to highlight projects they think should be focused more on, or that needs a little bit of love? >> I think, I mean, particularly if we're talking about these sort of vulnerability issues, there's a ton of work going on, like in the Secure Software Foundation, other foundations, I think there's work going on in Apache somewhere as well around the bill of material, the software bill of materials, the Secure Software supply chain security, even enumerating your dependencies is not trivial today. So I think there's going to be a ton of people doing really good work on that, as well as the criticality aspect. It's all like that. There's a really great xkcd cartoon with your software project and some really big monolithic lumps. And then, this tiny little piece in a very important point that's maintained by somebody in his bedroom in Montana or something and if you called it out. >> Yeah, you just opened where the next lightening and a bottle comes from. And this is I think the beauty of Open Source is that you get a little collaboration, you get three feet in a cloud of dust going and you get some momentum, and if it's relevant, it rises to the top. I think that's the collective intelligence of Open Source. The question I want to ask that the panel here is when you go into an enterprise, and now that the game is changing with a much more collaborative and involved, what's the story if they say, hey, what's in it for me, how do I manage the Open Source? What's the current best practice? Because there's no doubt I can't ignore it. It's in everything we do. How do I organize around it? How do I build around it to be more efficient and more productive and reduce the risk on vulnerabilities to managing staff, making sure the right teams in place, the right agility and all those things? >> You called it, they got to get skin in the game. They need to be active and involved and donating to a sustainable Open Source project is a great way to start. But if you really want to be active, then you should be committing. You should have a goal for your organization to be contributing back to that project. Maybe not committing code, it could be committing resources into the darks or in the tests, or even tweeting about an Open Source project is contributing to it. And I think a lot of these enterprises could benefit a lot from getting more active with the Open Source Foundations that are out there. >> Liz, you've been actively involved. I know we've talked personally when the CNCF started, which had a great commercial uptake from companies. What do you think the current state-of-the-art kind of equation is has it changed a little bit? Or is it the game still the same? >> Yeah, and in the early days of the CNCF, it was very much dominated by vendors behind the project. And now we're seeing more and more membership from end-user companies, the kind of enterprises that are building their businesses on Cloud Native, but their business is not in itself. That's not there. The infrastructure is not their business. And I think seeing those companies, putting money in, putting time in, as Brian says contributing resources quite often, there's enough money, but finding the talent to do the work and finding people who are prepared to actually chop the wood and carry the water, >> Exactly. >> that it's hard. >> And if enterprises can find peoples to spend time on Open Source projects, help with those chores, it's hugely valuable. And it's one of those the rising tide floats all the boats. We can raise security, we can reduce the amount of dependency on maintain projects collectively. >> I think the business models there, I think one of the things I'll react to and then get your guys' comments is remember which CubeCon it was, it was one of the early ones. And I remember seeing Apple having a booth, but nobody was manning. It was just an Apple booth. They weren't doing anything, but they were recruiting. And I think you saw the transition of a business model where the worry about a big vendor taking over a project and having undue influence over it goes away because I think this idea of participation is also talent, but also committing that talent back into the communities as a model, as a business model, like, okay, hire some great people, but listen, don't screw up the Open Source piece of it 'cause that's a critical. >> Also hire a channel, right? They can use those contributions to source that talent and build the reputation in the communities that they depend on. And so there's really a lot of benefit to the larger organizations that can do this. They'll have a huge pipeline of really qualified engineers right out the gate without having to resort to cheesy whiteboard interviews, which is pretty great. >> Yeah, I agree with a lot of this. One of my concerns is that a lot of these corporations tend to focus very narrowly on certain projects, which they feel that they depend greatly, they'll invest in OpenStack, they'll invest in Docker, they'll invest in some of the CNCF projects. And then these other projects get ignored. Something that I've been a proponent of for a little bit for a while is observability of your dependencies. And I don't think there's quite enough projects and solutions to this. And it sounds maybe from lists, there are some projects that I don't know about, but I also know that there's some startups like Snyk and so forth that help with a little bit of this problem, but I think we need more focus on some of these edges. And I think companies need to do better, both in providing, having some sort of solution for observability of the dependencies, as well as understanding those dependencies and managing them. I've seen companies for instance, depending on software that they actively don't want to use based on a certain criteria that they already set projects, like they'll set a requirement that any project that they use has a code of conduct, but they'll then use projects that don't have codes of conduct. And if they don't have a code of conduct, then employees are prohibited from working on those projects. So you've locked yourself into a place where you're depending on software that you have instructed, your employees are not allowed to contribute to, for certain legal and other reasons. So you need to draw a line in the sand and then recognize that those projects are ones that you don't want to consume, and then not use them, and have observability around these things. >> That's a great point. I think we have 10 minutes left. I want to just shift to a topic that I think is relevant. And that is as Open Source software, software, people develop software, you see under the hood kind of software, SREs developing very quickly in the CloudScale, but also you've got your classic software developers who were writing code. So you have supply chain, software supply chain challenges. You mentioned developer experience around how to code. You have now automation in place. So you've got the development of all these things that are happening. Like I just want to write software. Some people want to get and do infrastructure as code so DevSecOps is here. So how does that look like going forward? How has the future of Open Source going to make the developers just want to code quickly? And the folks who want to tweak the infrastructure a bit more efficient, any views on that? >> At Gaggle, we're using AWS' CDK, exclusively for our infrastructure as code. And it's a great transition for developers instead of writing Yammel or Jason, or even HCL for their infrastructure code, now they're writing code in the language that they're used to Python or JavaScript, and what that's providing is an easier transition for developers into that Infrastructure as code at Gaggle here, but it's also providing an opportunity to provide reusable constructs that some Devs can build on. So if we've got a very opinionated way to deploy a serverless app in a database and do auto-scaling behind and all stuff, we can present that to a developer as a library, and they can just consume it as it is. Maybe that's as deep as they want to go and they're happy with that. But then they want to go deeper into it, they can either use some of the lower level constructs or create PRs to the platform team to have those constructs changed to fit their needs. So it provides a nice on-ramp developers to use the tools and languages they're used to, and then also go deeper as they need. >> That's awesome. Does that mean they're not full stack developers anymore that they're half stack developers they're taking care of for them? >> I don't know either. >> We'll in. >> No, only kidding. Anyway, any other reactions to this whole? I just want to code, make it easy for me, and some people want to get down and dirty under the hood. >> So I think that for me, Docker was always a key part of this. I don't know when DevSecOps was coined exactly, but I was talking with people about it back in 2012. And when I joined Docker, it was a part of that vision for me, was that Docker was applying these security principles by default for your application. It wasn't, I mean, yes, everybody adopted because of the portability and the acceleration of development, but it was for me, the fact that it was limiting what you could do from a security angle by default, and then giving you these tuna balls that you can control it further. You asked about a project that may not get enough recognition is something called DockerSlim, which is designed to optimize your containers and will make them smaller, but it also constraints the security footprint, and we'll remove capabilities from the container. It will help you build security profiles for app armor and the Red Hat one. SELinux. >> SELinux. >> Yeah, and this is something that I think a lot of developers, it's kind of outside of the realm of things that they're really thinking about. So the more that we can automate those processes and make it easier out of the box for users or for... when I say users, I mean, developers, so that it's straightforward and automatic and also giving them the capability of refining it and tuning it as needed, or simply choosing platforms like serverless offerings, which have these security constraints built in out of the box and sometimes maybe less tuneable, but very strong by default. And I think that's a good place for us to be is where we just enforced these things and make you do things in a secure way. >> Yeah, I'm a huge fan of Kubernetes, but it's not the right hammer for every nail. And there are absolutely tons of applications that are better served by something like Lambda where a lot more of that security surface is taken care of for the developer. And I think we will see better tooling around security profiling and making it easier to shrink wrap your applications that there are plenty of products out there that can help you with this in a cloud native environment. But I think for the smaller developer let's say, or an earlier stage company, yeah, it needs to be so much more straightforward. Really does. >> Really an interesting time, 10 years ago, when I was working at Adobe, we used to requisition all these analysts to tell us how many developers there were for the market. And we thought there was about 20 million developers. If GitHub's to be believed, we think there is now around 80 million developers. So both these groups are probably wrong in their numbers, but the takeaway here for me is that we've got a lot of new developers and a lot of these new developers are really struck by a paradox of choice. And they're typically starting on the front end. And so there's a lot of movement in the stack moved towards the front end. We saw that at re:Invent when Amazon was really pushing Amplify 'cause they're seeing this too. It's interesting because this is where folks start. And so a lot of the obstructions are moving in that direction, but maybe not always necessarily totally appropriate. And so finding the right balance for folks is still a work in progress. Like Lambda is a great example. It lets me focus totally on just business logic. I don't have to think about infrastructure pretty much at all. And if I'm newer to the industry, that makes a lot of sense to me. As use cases expand, all of a sudden, reality intervenes, and it might not be appropriate for everything. And so figuring out what those edges are, is still the challenge, I think. >> All right, thank you very much for coming on the CUBE here panel. AWS Heroes, thanks everyone for coming. I really appreciate it, thank you. >> Thank you. >> Thank you. >> Okay. >> Thanks for having me. >> Okay, that's a wrap here back to the program and the awesome startups. Thanks for watching. (upbeat music)

(gentle music) >> High profile cyber attacks like the SolarWinds hack, the JBS meat and the Florida municipality breach, have heightened awareness of how exposed, critical infrastructure has become. Because the pandemic has shifted employees to remote modes of work, hackers now have a much easier target to fish for credentials and exploit less secure home networks. Take the recent Log4j vulnerability, that's yet another example, of how hackers can take advantage of weak links in the chain. Now data storage companies have an important role to play in fighting cyber crime. Ultimately, they provide the equivalent of a bank vault if you will, and are responsible for storing and protecting the data that cyber criminals are targeting to steal or encrypt, in an effort to hold companies hostage, in a ransomware attack. Now in an effort to help customers understand how to protect themselves from such vulnerabilities, and how one storage company is addressing these challenges, the Cube is hosting this special presentation InfiniGuard Cyber Resilience: New Cybercrime Solutions. And we're going to speak with Eric Herzog, who's the Chief Marketing Officer of Infinidat, and then we'll bring in Stan Wysocki who is the president of Mark III Systems who is either an expert in IT infrastructure and artificial intelligence. First, let me welcome Eric Herzog back to the Cube, hello, Eric. >> Great, Dave, thank you very much, always love talking to you and the Cube, about leading edge technology solutions for end users. >> Alright let's do it. So, first we want to address the transformation and big business progress of Infinidat. New CEO, he's injected new management, new head of marketing obviously, Phil Bullinger is really been focused on accelerating the company's original vision, and doing so, Eric, in the typically unconventional style of Infinidat, you just put out a press release, capping 2021, can you set the stage for us, and give us the business update? >> Sure, so of course we summarized our 2021 results. What a very, very strong year. What a very, very strong year. We increased our bookings over 40% year to year. Even in Q4, we increased our bookings over 68%. And over 25% of the fortune 50 use an Infinidat solution, either our InfiniBox, or InfiniBox SSA, all flash array, or our Infiniguard, which is the focus of the launch we're doing today, on February 9th. >> Yeah, so I always said that Infinidat is one of the best kept secrets in the storage business. So let's talk about that hard news, what you launched on February 9th, and why it's important. >> Well, what we've done is we've got a high end enterprise purpose-built backup appliance, the InfiniGuard. We made some substantial advances in that. The key is focused on cyber resilience with what we call our infinisafe technology. Infinisafe incorporates a number of subsets, of cyber resilience from immutable snapshots, to logical air gapping, to fenced isolated networks, to almost instantaneous recovery for your backup data sets. In addition, we also dramatically improved the performance of the backup and recovery, which means, for example, if a backup window was taking three hours, now the backup window on that primary backup dataset could take only an hour and a half, which of course, as we all know backup dramatically impacts the performance of your primary applications, your primary servers, and your primary storage. So we've done both the cyber resilience aspect and then, on modern data protection, making sure that the backup and recovery are faster, for a traditional backup workload. >> So tell us a little bit more about Infinisafe, and specifically, Eric I'm interested in how it's different from other solutions, don't make me a liar, I had said, you guys always kind of take nonconventional approaches so tell us, add a little color to Infinisafe and how is it really unique from competitors? >> Sure, well Infinisafe incorporates as I mentioned, several different aspects. First of all, the immutable snapshots. So immutable snapshots can not be deleted, they cannot be altered, you cannot accelerate the rate, you can set the rate of immutable stuff, do I want to do it once a day? Do I want to do it twice a day? And obviously if a hacker could get in, you could accelerate that. Our immutable snaps are physically separated from the management schema. So the inside of an Infiniguard, we have what we call a data dedupe appliance, and that data dedupe engine, it goes ahead and it applies data reduction technology, to that back up data set. But we've divorced the immutable snapshots from the management of what we now call a DDE. So the DDE has kind of access of giving you that gap, that logical gap between the management schema of a DDE, and of course the immutable snapshot. We also combine that with this air gap technology, you've got the immutability and the air gap, which is local in that instance, but we also can do it remotely. So we can replicate from one Infiniguard in data center A, to a different Infiniguard in data center B. You then can configure that backup data set with the same immutable snapshot, and the same length, one day, half a day, six hours, whatever you choose, and then of course it'll have that same capability. The third thing we've done is very unique. We have a fenced isolated network to perform forensics. So, if the Cube has a cyber or malware attack, you need to make sure that once you've cleaned it up, off the primary storage, the primary servers, that you recover, a known good data set. So we set up this isolated fence network in which to perform that forensic analysis, to give you the appropriate good recover point. However, unlike many of our competitors, we can do it with a single InfiniBox. Some of our competitors, right on their websites say, you need two of their purpose-built backup appliances, to do cyber resilience. Meaning, twice the CapEx and twice the OpEx, which we can do with a single Infiniguard solution. And then lastly is our near instantaneous recovery. As you know, we're recovering backup data sets. We can make between 15 and 30 minutes time, the backup data set fully accessible to the backup admin or the storage admin to use their Commvault, their Veeam, their Veritas, their IBM Spectrum Protect, or whatever their backup software is, to do recovery from the InfiniGuard box, back to the primary storage using of course the backup software that they created the original dataset with. That is very unique. When you look out in the industry and look at, whether it be purpose-built backup competitors, or whether you look at primary storage competitors, almost no one talks about the speed of their recovery, and the one or two that do, talk about recovering the data set. We recover the entire environment. We are ready to go, and the backup admin, if they were, for example, Commvault, Veeam or Veritas, they could immediately start the backup, as soon as we did our recovery, which again, takes between 15 and 30 minutes, independent of the data set size. That could be 50 terabytes, it could be a petabyte, it could be two petabytes. And even two petabytes of data can be available in 15 to 30 minutes. And then of course, the backup admin can restore from that backup dataset. Very powerful and very unique in those aspects. >> Whilst the reason why this is so important is like I said, it's like the bank vault, because hackers are going to go after that backup corpus that's where the gold is, that's where all the data is. So this all really sounds good. But there's more than Infinisafe in this launch. What else should we know? >> Well, the other thing we've done is dramatically improved the performance of the purpose-built backup plants at the core. So for example, the last time we publicly announced our numbers, we were at 74 terabytes an hour, now we're 180 terabytes an hour. So of course, as we all know, when you do a backup, it impacts the performance of the primary applications, the primary servers and the primary storage. So if that backup window was taking three hours, now that we've more than doubled the performance, you could be up to 50% better. So a three hour backup window, if that's what the dataset took to be backed up, now we can get that down to an hour and a half or even faster. So that of course minimizes the impact on primary storage, primary applications, and of course your primary storage, making it much, much more efficient, from a backup perspective, and of course less impact on the primary applications, the primary servers, and primary storage. >> So I've talked to a number of Infinidat customers, they're very loyal and kind of passionate. So I wonder if you could kind of put that perspective on this discussion. The impact that InfiniGuard, this announcement, that's going to have for your customers, paint a picture as to how it's going to change their business. >> Sure, so let me give you an example. One of our customers is a cloud service buyer, in North America, they focus only on healthcare. So here's a couple of key benefits that they got. First of all, they use our integration with two different backup vendors. They don't have one, they have two. So we're tightly integrated with our backup software partners. They got a 40% cost savings on CapEX, compared to the previous vendor that they had. And, they used to be able to do 30,000 backup per day, now they can do 90,000 backup a day. And by the way, that's all with the previous version of InfiniGuard, not the version we just announced on the 9th. One of our other customers, which is in AMEA and they happened to be an energy company, they were using purpose-built backup from the other vendor, and they had 14 of them, seven in data center one, and seven in data center two. With InfiniGuard, they've got one in data center one, and one in data center two. So 14 purpose-built backup appliances consolidated down into two. And on top of that, those purpose-built backup appliances from the other vendor actually had a couple recovery failures, where they were not able to recover the data. They've been installed for a year now, they've had zero recovers, zero recovery failures, whereas the previous vendor had some. And lastly, let's talk about a large global fortune financial services. So, one of the biggest in the industry, their cost savings from their previous vendor was 46%. In addition, when you look at their cyber resilience design, they were using one of those vendors that probably talks about needing two system products to do their cyber resiliency. They again were able to take those two systems out, and use one InfiniGuard solution. Again, reducing both their capital expenditure, two going to one. And then the operational expenditure, they only have to manage one InfiniGuard versus two of the other guys appliances. Those are just three examples all over the world. One in cloud service providing, one in the energy space, and one a global fortune 500 financial services company. Just some real world examples. And all those by the way, Dave, were before the enhancements of Infinisafe, and before the additional performance we've added in the launch of InfiniGuard on February 9th. >> So like I'm just kind of sketching out the business case, you know, put my CFO hat on. So you're lowering costs cause you're consolidating, so that means I need less hardware and software. But also there's probably labor costs associated with that. If I could do it faster with less resources, I got less stuff to manage. You're accelerating the backup time, so that frees up resources that I can apply elsewhere, recovery, you know, is really important. So I'm inferring faster recovery, all this lowers my risk, and then I can sort of calculate the probability of having data loss, and then what that means to my business. Am I getting that right? >> Yeah, yeah. And in fact, the other impact is on your primary service and your primary storage. If the backup window shrinks, then you're not slowing down that SAP app, that Oracle app, you know, that SQL app, whatever you're running, whether that be the financials, whether that be your logistics, whether it be your manufacturing system, every time you turn on that backup, to do that backup, that backup window slows you down. So cutting that in half has an impact on the real-world application side, which obviously most storage guys, you know, it's hard for us to quantify. But you are taking the impact of backup, and basically reducing it, if you will shrinking the backup window, so their primary applications don't get hammered as much by the backup while they're still trying to run that SAP, that Oracle or that SQL workload. >> And you're not a backup software vendor, so I have optionality there. I can pretty much choose all the popular, you know. >> Absolutely, so Veeam, Veritas, Commvault, IBM Spectrum Protect, all the majors. And in fact, one of the players I mentioned, as you were talking about the end-users, they use two different backup packages, two of 'em. So, two of the major vendors that I named, we work with them just within one account. So, we're very flexible, the user picks what they want from a backup software perspective, and we can work with anything. So, whatever they want to use, is fine with us. We integrate with all of them, we have integration, for example, also with VMware, for vVols and other aspects in container integration, so you know, whether it be our purpose-built backup appliance, InfiniGuard, or what we do with the InfiniBox, we always make sure we integrate with the surrounding environment. 'Cause storage is not an island, storage needs to exist in your data center, or your hybrid cloud data center, or what you're doing for containers. So we make sure we have integration with our InfiniBox, our InfiniBox SSA, all flash. And of course the product we're enhancing today, the InfiniGuard. >> Yeah, integration is super important in the enterprise. Enterprises want solutions, they're busy. (laughs) They don't have unlimited budget to go, you know, plugging stuff together. So, okay Eric, we got to leave it there. Thank you so much. >> Great, thank you very much Dave. Always love talking to the Cube. >> Okay, in a moment Stan Wysocki is coming in. He's the president of Mark III Systems. He's going to join us for a drill down on how InfiniGuard is impacting customers. You're watching the Cube, your global leader, in enterprise tech coverage. (gentle music)

>> From theCUBE Studios in Palo Alto and Boston, bringing you data-driven insights from theCUBE and ETR, this is Breaking Analysis with Dave Vellante. >> The pandemic has changed the way we think about and predict the future. As we enter the third year of a global pandemic, we see the significant impact that it's had on technology strategy, spending patterns, and company fortunes Much has changed. And while many of these changes were forced reactions to a new abnormal, the trends that we've seen over the past 24 months have become more entrenched, and point to the way that's coming ahead in the technology business. Hello and welcome to this week's Wikibon CUBE Insights powered by ETR. In this Breaking Analysis, we welcome our partner and colleague and business friend, Erik Porter Bradley, as we deliver what's becoming an annual tradition for Erik and me, our predictions for Enterprise Technology in 2022 and beyond Erik, welcome. Thanks for taking some time out. >> Thank you, Dave. Luckily we did pretty well last year, so we were able to do this again. So hopefully we can keep that momentum going. >> Yeah, you know, I want to mention that, you know, we get a lot of inbound predictions from companies and PR firms that help shape our thinking. But one of the main objectives that we have is we try to make predictions that can be measured. That's why we use a lot of data. Now not all will necessarily fit that parameter, but if you've seen the grading of our 2021 predictions that Erik and I did, you'll see we do a pretty good job of trying to put forth prognostications that can be declared correct or not, you know, as black and white as possible. Now let's get right into it. Our first prediction, we're going to go run into spending, something that ETR surveys for quarterly. And we've reported extensively on this. We're calling for tech spending to increase somewhere around 8% in 2022, we can see there on the slide, Erik, we predicted spending last year would increase by 4% IDC. Last check was came in at five and a half percent. Gardner was somewhat higher, but in general, you know, not too bad, but looking ahead, we're seeing an acceleration from the ETR September surveys, as you can see in the yellow versus the blue bar in this chart, many of the SMBs that were hard hit by the pandemic are picking up spending again. And the ETR data is showing acceleration above the mean for industries like energy, utilities, retail, and services, and also, notably, in the Forbes largest 225 private companies. These are companies like Mars or Koch industries. They're predicting well above average spending for 2022. So Erik, please weigh in here. >> Yeah, a lot to bring up on this one, I'm going to be quick. So 1200 respondents on this, over a third of which were at the C-suite level. So really good data that we brought in, the usual bucket of, you know, fortune 500, global 2000 make up the meat of that median, but it's 8.3% and rising with momentum as we see. What's really interesting right now is that energy and utilities. This is usually like, you know, an orphan stock dividend type of play. You don't see them at the highest point of tech spending. And the reason why right now is really because this state of tech infrastructure in our energy infrastructure needs help. And it's obvious, remember the Florida municipality break reach last year? When they took over the water systems or they had the ability to? And this is a real issue, you know, there's bad nation state actors out there, and I'm no alarmist, but the energy and utility has to spend this money to keep up. It's really important. And then you also hit on the retail consumer. Obviously what's happened, the work from home shift created a shop from home shift, and the trends that are happening right now in retail. If you don't spend and keep up, you're not going to be around much longer. So I think the really two interesting things here to call out are energy utilities, usually a laggard in IT spend and it's leading, and also retail consumer, a lot of changes happening. >> Yeah. Great stuff. I mean, I recall when we entered the pandemic, really ETR was the first to emphasize the impact that work from home was going to have, so I really put a lot of weight on this data. Okay. Our next prediction is we're going to get into security, it's one of our favorite topics. And that is that the number one priority that needs to be addressed by organizations in 2022 is security and you can see, in this slide, the degree to which security is top of mind, relative to some other pretty important areas like cloud, productivity, data, and automation, and some others. Now people may say, "Oh, this is obvious." But I'm going to add some context here, Erik, and then bring you in. First, organizations, they don't have unlimited budgets. And there are a lot of competing priorities for dollars, especially with the digital transformation mandate. And depending on the size of the company, this data will vary. For example, while security is still number one at the largest public companies, and those are of course of the biggest spenders, it's not nearly as pronounced as it is on average, or in, for example, mid-sized companies and government agencies. And this is because midsized companies or smaller companies, they don't have the resources that larger companies do. Larger companies have done a better job of securing their infrastructure. So these mid-size firms are playing catch up and the data suggests cyber is even a bigger priority there, gaps that they have to fill, you know, going forward. And that's why we think there's going to be more demand for MSSPs, managed security service providers. And we may even see some IPO action there. And then of course, Erik, you and I have talked about events like the SolarWinds Hack, there's more ransomware attacks, other vulnerabilities. Just recently, like Log4j in December. All of this has heightened concerns. Now I want to talk a little bit more about how we measure this, you know, relatively, okay, it's an obvious prediction, but let's stick our necks out a little bit. And so in addition to the rise of managed security services, we're calling for M&A and/or IPOs, we've specified some names here on this chart, and we're also pointing to the digital supply chain as an area of emphasis. Again, Log4j really shone that under a light. And this is going to help the likes of Auth0, which is now Okta, SailPoint, which is called out on this chart, and some others. We're calling some winners in end point security. Erik, you're going to talk about sort of that lifecycle, that transformation that we're seeing, that migration to new endpoint technologies that are going to benefit from this reset refresh cycle. So Erik, weigh in here, let's talk about some of the elements of this prediction and some of the names on that chart. >> Yeah, certainly. I'm going to start right with Log4j top of mind. And the reason why is because we're seeing a real paradigm shift here where things are no longer being attacked at the network layer, they're being attacked at the application layer, and in the application stack itself. And that is a huge shift left. And that's taking in DevSecOps now as a real priority in 2022. That's a real paradigm shift over the last 20 years. That's not where attacks used to come from. And this is going to have a lot of changes. You called out a bunch of names in there that are, they're either going to work. I would add to that list Wiz. I would add Orca Security. Two names in our emerging technology study, in addition to the ones you added that are involved in cloud security and container security. These names are either going to get gobbled up. So the traditional legacy names are going to have to start writing checks and, you know, legacy is not fair, but they're in the data center, right? They're, on-prem, they're not cloud native. So these are the names that money is going to be flowing to. So they're either going to get gobbled up, or we're going to see some IPO's. And on the other thing I want to talk about too, is what you mentioned. We have CrowdStrike on that list, We have SentinalOne on the list. Everyone knows them. Our data was so strong on Tanium that we actually went positive for the first time just today, just this morning, where that was released. The trifecta of these are so important because of what you mentioned, under resourcing. We can't have security just tell us when something happens, it has to automate, and it has to respond. So in this next generation of EDR and XDR, an automated response has to happen because people are under-resourced, salaries are really high, there's a skill shortage out there. Security has to become responsive. It can't just monitor anymore. >> Yeah. Great. And we should call out too. So we named some names, Snyk, Aqua, Arctic Wolf, Lacework, Netskope, Illumio. These are all sort of IPO, or possibly even M&A candidates. All right. Our next prediction goes right to the way we work. Again, something that ETR has been on for awhile. We're calling for a major rethink in remote work for 2022. We had predicted last year that by the end of 2021, there'd be a larger return to the office with the norm being around a third of workers permanently remote. And of course the variants changed that equation and, you know, gave more time for people to think about this idea of hybrid work and that's really come in to focus. So we're predicting that is going to overtake fully remote as the dominant work model with only about a third of the workers back in the office full-time. And Erik, we expect a somewhat lower percentage to be fully remote. It's now sort of dipped under 30%, at around 29%, but it's still significantly higher than the historical average of around 15 to 16%. So still a major change, but this idea of hybrid and getting hybrid right, has really come into focus. Hasn't it? >> Yeah. It's here to stay. There's no doubt about it. We started this in March of 2020, as soon as the virus hit. This is the 10th iteration of the survey. No one, no one ever thought we'd see a number where only 34% of people were going to be in office permanently. That's a permanent number. They're expecting only a third of the workers to ever come back fully in office. And against that, there's 63% that are saying their permanent workforce is going to be either fully remote or hybrid. And this, I can't really explain how big of a paradigm shift this is. Since the start of the industrial revolution, people leave their house and go to work. Now they're saying that's not going to happen. The economic impact here is so broad, on so many different areas And, you know, the reason is like, why not? Right? The productivity increase is real. We're seeing the productivity increase. Enterprises are spending on collaboration tools, productivity tools, We're seeing an increased perception in productivity of their workforce. And the CFOs can cut down an expense item. I just don't see a reason why this would end, you know, I think it's going to continue. And I also want to point out these results, as high as they are, were before the Omicron wave hit us. I can only imagine what these results would have been if we had sent the survey out just two or three weeks later. >> Yeah. That's a great point. Okay. Next prediction, we're going to look at the supply chain, specifically in how it's affecting some of the hardware spending and cloud strategies in the future. So in this chart, ETRS buyers, have you experienced problems procuring hardware as a result of supply chain issues? And, you know, despite the fact that some companies are, you know, I would call out Dell, for example, doing really well in terms of delivering, you can see that in the numbers, it's pretty clear, there's been an impact. And that's not not an across the board, you know, thing where vendors are able to deliver, especially acute in PCs, but also pronounced in networking, also in firewall servers and storage. And what's interesting is how companies are responding and reacting. So first, you know, I'm going to call the laptop and PC demand staying well above pre-COVID norms. It had peaked in 2012. Pre-pandemic it kept dropping and dropping and dropping, in terms of, you know, unit volume, where the market was contracting. And we think can continue to grow this year in double digits in 2022. But what's interesting, Erik, is when you survey customers, is despite the difficulty they're having in procuring network hardware, there's as much of a migration away from existing networks to the cloud. You could probably comment on that. Their networks are more fossilized, but when it comes to firewalls and servers and storage, there's a much higher propensity to move to the cloud. 30% of customers that ETR surveyed will replace security appliances with cloud services and 41% and 34% respectively will move to cloud compute and storage in 2022. So cloud's relentless march on traditional on-prem models continues. Erik, what do you make of this data? Please weigh in on this prediction. >> As if we needed another reason to go to the cloud. Right here, here it is yet again. So this was added to the survey by client demand. They were asking about the procurement difficulties, the supply chain issues, and how it was impacting our community. So this is the first time we ran it. And it really was interesting to see, you know, the move there. And storage particularly I found interesting because it correlated with a huge jump that we saw on one of our vendor names, which was Rubrik, had the highest net score that it's ever had. So clearly we're seeing some correlation with some of these names that are there, you know, really well positioned to take storage, to take data into the cloud. So again, you didn't need another reason to, you know, hasten this digital transformation, but here we are, we have it yet again, and I don't see it slowing down anytime soon. >> You know, that's a really good point. I mean, it's not necessarily bad news for the... I mean, obviously you wish that it had no change, would be great, but things, you know, always going to change. So we'll talk about this a little bit later when we get into the Supercloud conversation, but this is an opportunity for people who embrace the cloud. So we'll come back to that. And I want to hang on cloud a bit and share some recent projections that we've made. The next prediction is the big four cloud players are going to surpass 167 billion, an IaaS and PaaS revenue in 2022. We track this. Observers of this program know that we try to create an apples to apples comparison between AWS, Azure, GCP and Alibaba in IaaS and PaaS. So we're calling for 38% revenue growth in 2022, which is astounding for such a massive market. You know, AWS is probably not going to hit a hundred billion dollar run rate, but they're going to be close this year. And we're going to get there by 2023, you know they're going to surpass that. Azure continues to close the gap. Now they're about two thirds of the size of AWS and Google, we think is going to surpass Alibaba and take the number three spot. Erik, anything you'd like to add here? >> Yeah, first of all, just on a sector level, we saw our sector, new survey net score on cloud jumped another 10%. It was already really high at 48. Went up to 53. This train is not slowing down anytime soon. And we even added an edge compute type of player, like CloudFlare into our cloud bucket this year. And it debuted with a net score of almost 60. So this is really an area that's expanding, not just the big three, but everywhere. We even saw Oracle and IBM jump up. So even they're having success, taking some of their on-prem customers and then selling them to their cloud services. This is a massive opportunity and it's not changing anytime soon, it's going to continue. >> And I think the operative word there is opportunity. So, you know, the next prediction is something that we've been having fun with and that's this Supercloud becomes a thing. Now, the reason I say we've been having fun is we put this concept of Supercloud out and it's become a bit of a controversy. First, you know, what the heck's the Supercloud right? It's sort of a buzz-wordy term, but there really is, we believe, a thing here. We think there needs to be a rethinking or at least an evolution of the term multi-cloud. And what we mean is that in our view, you know, multicloud from a vendor perspective was really cloud compatibility. It wasn't marketed that way, but that's what it was. Either a vendor would containerize its legacy stack, shove it into the cloud, or a company, you know, they'd do the work, they'd build a cloud native service on one of the big clouds and they did do it for AWS, and then Azure, and then Google. But there really wasn't much, if any, leverage across clouds. Now from a buyer perspective, we've always said multicloud was a symptom of multi-vendor, meaning I got different workloads, running in different clouds, or I bought a company and they run on Azure, and I do a lot of work on AWS, but generally it wasn't necessarily a prescribed strategy to build value on top of hyperscale infrastructure. There certainly was somewhat of a, you know, reducing lock-in and hedging the risk. But we're talking about something more here. We're talking about building value on top of the hyperscale gift of hundreds of billions of dollars in CapEx. So in addition, we're not just talking about transforming IT, which is what the last 10 years of cloud have been like. And, you know, doing work in the cloud because it's cheaper or simpler or more agile, all of those things. So that's beginning to change. And this chart shows some of the technology vendors that are leaning toward this Supercloud vision, in our view, building on top of the hyperscalers that are highlighted in red. Now, Jerry Chan at Greylock, they wrote a piece called Castles in the Cloud. It got our thinking going, and he and the team at Greylock, they're building out a database of all the cloud services and all the sub-markets in cloud. And that got us thinking that there's a higher level of abstraction coalescing in the market, where there's tight integration of services across clouds, but the underlying complexity is hidden, and there's an identical experience across clouds, and even, in my dreams, on-prem for some platforms, so what's new or new-ish and evolving are things like location independence, you've got to include the edge on that, metadata services to optimize locality of reference and data source awareness, governance, privacy, you know, application independent and dependent, actually, recovery across clouds. So we're seeing this evolve. And in our view, the two biggest things that are new are the technology is evolving, where you're seeing services truly integrate cross-cloud. And the other big change is digital transformation, where there's this new innovation curve developing, and it's not just about making your IT better. It's about SaaS-ifying and automating your entire company workflows. So Supercloud, it's not just a vendor thing to us. It's the evolution of, you know, the, the Marc Andreessen quote, "Every company will be a SaaS company." Every company will deliver capabilities that can be consumed as cloud services. So Erik, the chart shows spending momentum on the y-axis and net score, or presence in the ETR data center, or market share on the x-axis. We've talked about snowflake as the poster child for this concept where the vision is you're in their cloud and sharing data in that safe place. Maybe you could make some comments, you know, what do you think of this Supercloud concept and this change that we're sensing in the market? >> Well, I think you did a great job describing the concept. So maybe I'll support it a little bit on the vendor level and then kind of give examples of the ones that are doing it. You stole the lead there with Snowflake, right? There is no better example than what we've seen with what Snowflake can do. Cross-portability in the cloud, the ability to be able to be, you know, completely agnostic, but then build those services on top. They're better than anything they could offer. And it's not just there. I mean, you mentioned edge compute, that's a whole nother layer where this is coming in. And CloudFlare, the momentum there is out of control. I mean, this is a company that started off just doing CDN and trying to compete with Okta Mite. And now they're giving you a full soup to nuts with security and actual edge compute layer, but it's a fantastic company. What they're doing, it's another great example of what you're seeing here. I'm going to call out HashiCorp as well. They're more of an infrastructure services, a little bit more of an open-source freemium model, but what they're doing as well is completely cloud agnostic. It's dynamic. It doesn't care if you're in a container, it doesn't matter where you are. They recently IPO'd and they're down 25%, but their data looks so good across both of our emerging technology and TISA survey. It's certainly another name that's playing on this. And another one that we mentioned as well is Rubrik. If you need storage, compute, and in the cloud layer and you need to be agnostic to it, they're another one that's really playing in this space. So I think it's a great concept you're bringing up. I think it's one that's here to stay and there's certainly a lot of vendors that fit into what you're describing. >> Excellent. Thank you. All right, let's shift to data. The next prediction, it might be a little tough to measure. Before I said we're trying to be a little black and white here, but it relates to Data Mesh, which is, the ideas behind that term were created by Zhamak Dehghani of ThoughtWorks. And we see Data Mesh is really gaining momentum in 2022, but it's largely going to be, we think, confined to a more narrow scope. Now, the impetus for change in data architecture in many companies really stems from the fact that their Hadoop infrastructure really didn't solve their data problems and they struggle to get more value out of their data investments. Data Mesh prescribes a shift to a decentralized architecture in domain ownership of data and a shift to data product thinking, beyond data for analytics, but data products and services that can be monetized. Now this a very powerful in our view, but they're difficult for organizations to get their heads around and further decentralization creates the need for a self-service platform and federated data governance that can be automated. And not a lot of standards around this. So it's going to take some time. At our power panel a couple of weeks ago on data management, Tony Baer predicted a backlash on Data Mesh. And I don't think it's going to be so much of a backlash, but rather the adoption will be more limited. Most implementations we think are going to use a starting point of AWS and they'll enable domains to access and control their own data lakes. And while that is a very small slice of the Data Mesh vision, I think it's going to be a starting point. And the last thing I'll say is, this is going to take a decade to evolve, but I think it's the right direction. And whether it's a data lake or a data warehouse or a data hub or an S3 bucket, these are really, the concept is, they'll eventually just become nodes on the data mesh that are discoverable and access is governed. And so the idea is that the stranglehold that the data pipeline and process and hyper-specialized roles that they have on data agility is going to evolve. And decentralized architectures and the democratization of data will eventually become a norm for a lot of different use cases. And Erik, I wonder if you'd add anything to this. >> Yeah. There's a lot to add there. The first thing that jumped out to me was that that mention of the word backlash you said, and you said it's not really a backlash, but what it could be is these are new words trying to solve an old problem. And I do think sometimes the industry will notice that right away and maybe that'll be a little pushback. And the problems are what you already mentioned, right? We're trying to get to an area where we can have more assets in our data site, more deliverable, and more usable and relevant to the business. And you mentioned that as self-service with governance laid on top. And that's really what we're trying to get to. Now, there's a lot of ways you can get there. Data fabric is really the technical aspect and data mesh is really more about the people, the process, and the governance, but the two of those need to meet, in order to make that happen. And as far as tools, you know, there's even cataloging names like Informatica that play in this, right? Istio plays in this, Snowflake plays in this. So there's a lot of different tools that will support it. But I think you're right in calling out AWS, right? They have AWS Lake, they have AWS Glue. They have so much that's trying to drive this. But I think the really important thing to keep here is what you said. It's going to be a decade long journey. And by the way, we're on the shoulders of giants a decade ago that have even gotten us to this point to talk about these new words because this has been an ongoing type of issue, but ultimately, no matter which vendors you use, this is going to come down to your data governance plan and the data literacy in your business. This is really about workflows and people as much as it is tools. So, you know, the new term of data mesh is wonderful, but you still have to have the people and the governance and the processes in place to get there. >> Great, thank you for that, Erik. Some great points. All right, for the next prediction, we're going to shine the spotlight on two of our favorite topics, Snowflake and Databricks, and the prediction here is that, of course, Databricks is going to IPO this year, as expected. Everybody sort of expects that. And while, but the prediction really is, well, while these two companies are facing off already in the market, they're also going to compete with each other for M&A, especially as Databricks, you know, after the IPO, you're going to have, you know, more prominence and a war chest. So first, these companies, they're both looking pretty good, the same XY graph with spending velocity and presence and market share on the horizontal axis. And both Snowflake and Databricks are well above that magic 40% red dotted line, the elevated line, to us. And for context, we've included a few other firms. So you can see kind of what a good position these two companies are really in, especially, I mean, Snowflake, wow, it just keeps moving to the right on this horizontal picture, but maintaining the next net score in the Y axis. Amazing. So, but here's the thing, Databricks is using the term Lakehouse implying that it has the best of data lakes and data warehouses. And Snowflake has the vision of the data cloud and data sharing. And Snowflake, they've nailed analytics, and now they're moving into data science in the domain of Databricks. Databricks, on the other hand, has nailed data science and is moving into the domain of Snowflake, in the data warehouse and analytics space. But to really make this seamless, there has to be a semantic layer between these two worlds and they're either going to build it or buy it or both. And there are other areas like data clean rooms and privacy and data prep and governance and machine learning tooling and AI, all that stuff. So the prediction is they'll not only compete in the market, but they'll step up and in their competition for M&A, especially after the Databricks IPO. We've listed some target names here, like Atscale, you know, Iguazio, Infosum, Habu, Immuta, and I'm sure there are many, many others. Erik, you care to comment? >> Yeah. I remember a year ago when we were talking Snowflake when they first came out and you, and I said, "I'm shocked if they don't use this war chest of money" "and start going after more" "because we know Slootman, we have so much respect for him." "We've seen his playbook." And I'm actually a little bit surprised that here we are, at 12 months later, and he hasn't spent that money yet. So I think this prediction's just spot on. To talk a little bit about the data side, Snowflake is in rarefied air. It's all by itself. It is the number one net score in our entire TISA universe. It is absolutely incredible. There's almost no negative intentions. Global 2000 organizations are increasing their spend on it. We maintain our positive outlook. It's really just, you know, stands alone. Databricks, however, also has one of the highest overall net sentiments in the entire universe, not just its area. And this is the first time we're coming up positive on this name as well. It looks like it's not slowing down. Really interesting comment you made though that we normally hear from our end-user commentary in our panels and our interviews. Databricks is really more used for the data science side. The MLAI is where it's best positioned in our survey. So it might still have some catching up to do to really have that caliber of usability that you know Snowflake is seeing right now. That's snowflake having its own marketplace. There's just a lot more to Snowflake right now than there is Databricks. But I do think you're right. These two massive vendors are sort of heading towards a collision course, and it'll be very interesting to see how they deploy their cash. I think Snowflake, with their incredible management and leadership, probably will make the first move. >> Well, I think you're right on that. And by the way, I'll just add, you know, Databricks has basically said, hey, it's going to be easier for us to come from data lakes into data warehouse. I'm not sure I buy that. I think, again, that semantic layer is a missing ingredient. So it's going to be really interesting to see how this plays out. And to your point, you know, Snowflake's got the war chest, they got the momentum, they've got the public presence now since November, 2020. And so, you know, they're probably going to start making some aggressive moves. Anyway, next prediction is something, Erik, that you and I have talked about many, many times, and that is observability. I know it's one of your favorite topics. And we see this world screaming for more consolidation it's going all in on cloud native. These legacy stacks, they're fighting to stay relevant, but the direction is pretty clear. And the same XY graph lays out the players in the field, with some of the new entrants that we've also highlighted, like Observe and Honeycomb and ChaosSearch that we've talked about. Erik, we put a big red target around Splunk because everyone wants their gold. So please give us your thoughts. >> Oh man, I feel like I've been saying negative things about Splunk for too long. I've got a bad rap on this name. The Splunk shareholders come after me all the time. Listen, it really comes down to this. They're a fantastic company that was designed to do logging and monitoring and had some great tool sets around what you could do with it. But they were designed for the data center. They were designed for prem. The world we're in now is so dynamic. Everything I hear from our end user community is that all net new workloads will be going to cloud native players. It's that simple. So Splunk has entrenched. It's going to continue doing what it's doing and it does it really, really well. But if you're doing something new, the new workloads are going to be in a dynamic environment and that's going to go to the cloud native players. And in our data, it is extremely clear that that means Datadog and Elastic. They are by far number one and two in net score, increase rates, adoption rates. It's not even close. Even New Relic actually is starting to, you know, entrench itself really well. We saw New Relic's adoption's going up, which is super important because they went to that freemium model, you know, to try to get their little bit of an entrenched customer base and that's working as well. And then you made a great list here, of all the new entrants, but it goes beyond this. There's so many more. In our emerging technology survey, we're seeing Century, Catchpoint, Securonix, Lucid Works. There are so many options in this space. And let's not forget, the biggest data that we're seeing is with Grafana. And Grafana labs as yet to turn on their enterprise. Elastic did it, why can't Grafana labs do it? They have an enterprise stack. So when you look at how crowded this space is, there has to be consolidation. I recently hosted a panel and every single guy on that panel said, "Please give me a consolidation." Because they're the end users trying to actually deploy these and it's getting a little bit confusing. >> Great. Thank you for that. Okay. Last prediction. Erik, might be a little out of your wheelhouse, but you know, you might have some thoughts on it. And that's a hybrid events become the new digital model and a new category in 2022. You got these pure play digital or virtual events. They're going to take a back seat to in-person hybrids. The virtual experience will eventually give way to metaverse experiences and that's going to take some time, but the physical hybrid is going to drive it. And metaverse is ultimately going to define the virtual experience because the virtual experience today is not great. Nobody likes virtual. And hybrid is going to become the business model. Today's pure virtual experience has to evolve, you know, theCUBE first delivered hybrid mid last decade, but nobody really wanted it. We did Mobile World Congress last summer in Barcelona in an amazing hybrid model, which we're showing in some of the pictures here. Alex, if you don't mind bringing that back up. And every physical event that we're we're doing now has a hybrid and virtual component, including the pre-records. You can see in our studios, you see that the green screen. I don't know. Erik, what do you think about, you know, the Zoom fatigue and all this. I know you host regular events with your round tables, but what are your thoughts? >> Well, first of all, I think you and your company here have just done an amazing job on this. So that's really your expertise. I spent 20 years of my career hosting intimate wall street idea dinners. So I'm better at navigating a wine list than I am navigating a conference floor. But I will say that, you know, the trend just goes along with what we saw. If 35% are going to be fully remote. If 70% are going to be hybrid, then our events are going to be as well. I used to host round table dinners on, you know, one or two nights a week. Now those have gone virtual. They're now panels. They're now one-on-one interviews. You know, we do chats. We do submitted questions. We do what we can, but there's no reason that this is going to change anytime soon. I think you're spot on here. >> Yeah. Great. All right. So there you have it, Erik and I, Listen, we always love the feedback. Love to know what you think. Thank you, Erik, for your partnership, your collaboration, and love doing these predictions with you. >> Yeah. I always enjoy them too. And I'm actually happy. Last year you made us do a baker's dozen, so thanks for keeping it to 10 this year. >> (laughs) We've got a lot to say. I know, you know, we cut out. We didn't do much on crypto. We didn't really talk about SaaS. I mean, I got some thoughts there. We didn't really do much on containers and AI. >> You want to keep going? I've got another 10 for you. >> RPA...All right, we'll have you back and then let's do that. All right. All right. Don't forget, these episodes are all available as podcasts, wherever you listen, all you can do is search Breaking Analysis podcast. Check out ETR's website at etr.plus, they've got a new website out. It's the best data in the industry, and we publish a full report every week on wikibon.com and siliconangle.com. You can always reach out on email, David.Vellante@siliconangle.com I'm @DVellante on Twitter. Comment on our LinkedIn posts. This is Dave Vellante for the Cube Insights powered by ETR. Have a great week, stay safe, be well. And we'll see you next time. (mellow music)