>> It's The Cube covering Fortinet Security Summit brought to you by Fortinet. >> Hey and welcome back to the cubes coverage of Fortinets championship series. Cybersecurity summit here in Napa valley Fortinet is sponsoring the PGA tour event, kicking off the season here, and the cubes here as part of the coverage. And today is cybersecurity day where they bring their top customers in. We got Glenn Katz SVP, general manager, Comcast Enterprise Solutions. Glenn, thanks for coming on The Cube. Thanks for taking time out of your day. - Thank you no This is great. This is great. >> Interviewer: Tell me to explain what you guys do in the Comcast business enterprise group. >> That's our Comcast business. We're a part of Comcast overall. I always like to explain what Comcast really is. If you look at Comcast, it's a technology innovation company by itself that happens to focus on communications and media type of, of markets, right? And if you look at the Comcast side there on the communication side, it's really everything residential with customers. Then there's the us Comcast business and we're the fastest growing entity over the last 15 years within Comcast. And we started in small business, voice, video, and data to small businesses. Then we moved up to provide fiber ethernet type of a transport to mid-market. And then my group started in 2014. And what we do is focus on managed services. It doesn't matter who the transport layer is for enterprise Fortune 1000 type companies. And then when you layer in all these managed wider network services. So that's my business unit. >> Interviewer: Well, we appreciate it we're a customer by the way in Palo Alto >> Glen: Oh great >> So give a shout out to you guys. Let's get into the talk you're giving here about cybersecurity, because I mean, right now with the pandemic, people are working at home. Obviously everyone knows the future of work is hybrid now you're going to see more decentralized defy and or virtual spaces where people are going to want to work anywhere and businesses want to have that extension, right? What people are talking about, and it's not new, but it's kind of new in the sense of reality, right? You've got to execute. This is a big challenge. >> Glen: It is - What's your thoughts on that, >> Well it's a big challenge. And one of the things that I'll try to, I'll speak to this afternoon here, which is at least from the enterprise perspective, which includes the headquarters, the enterprise, the branch locations, the digital commerce, everywhere else, commerce is being done. It's not just at a store anymore. It's everywhere. Even if you only have a store and then you have the remote worker aspect. I mean, they do that to your point earlier. We're not in that fortress sort of security mentality anymore. There's no more DMZs it's done. And so you've got to get down to the zero trust type of network architecture. And how do you put that together? And how does that work? Not just for remote workers that have to access the enterprise applications, but also for simple, you know, consumers or the business customers of these, of these enterprises that have to do business from over the phone or in the store. >> Interviewer: What are the some of the challenges you hear from your customers, obviously, business of the defend themselves now the, the, the attacks are there. There's no parameters. You mentioned no fortress. There's more edge happening, right? Like I said, people at home, what are the top challenges that you're hearing from customers? >> So the biggest challenge, and this is, I would think this is, this is mostly focused on the enterprise side of it is that the is two interesting phenomenons going on. This is sort of beginnings before the pandemic. And then of course the pandemic, the role of the CIO has been elevated to now, they have a real seat at the table. Budgets are increasing to a point, but the expertise needed in these, in these it departments for these large enterprises, it's, it's impossible to do what you were just talking about, which is create a staff of people that can do everything from enterprise applications, e-commerce analytics, the network. How do you secure that network all the way down to the end users? Right? So it's that middle portion. That's the biggest challenge because that takes a lot of work and a lot of effort. And that's where folks like Comcast can come in and help them out. That's their biggest challenge. They can handle the enterprise, they can handle the remote workers. They can handle their own applications, which are continually trying to be, you know, have to be it's competitive out there. It's that middle area, that communications layer that their challenged with. >> Interviewer: Yeah. And John Madison's EVP, CMO Ford. It's always talking about negative unemployment in cybersecurity. Nevermind just the staff that do cyber >> Glen: That's exactly right, that's given. If you're a business, you can't hire people fast enough and you might not have the budget for you want to manage service. So how do you get cyber as a service? >> Glen: Well, so it's even bigger than that. It's not just the cyber as a service because it's now a big package. That's what SASE really is SASE is Secure Access Service Edge. But think of it where I think of it is you've got remote users, remote workers, mobile apps on one side, you've got applications, enterprise or commercial that are now moved into different cloud locations. And in the middle, you've got two real fundamental layers, the network. And, and that includes uh, the actual transport, the software defined wide area, networking components, everything that goes with that, that's the network as a service. And then you've got the secure web gateway portion, which includes everything to secure all the data, going back and forth between your remote laptop, the point of sales. And let's say the cloud based applications, right? So that's really the center stage right there. >> Interviewer: And the cloud has brought more service at the top of the stack. I mean, people thought down stack up stack is kind of like a geeky terms. You're talking about innovation. If you're down stack with network and transport, those are problems that you have to solve on behalf of your customers And make that almost invisible. And that's your job >> That's our job. That's our job is to service provider What's interesting is though back in the day, I mean, when, I mean, back in the day, it could have been 10 years ago in 20. You really, you know, you had stable networks, they were ubiquitous, they were expensive and they were slow. That's kind of the MPLS legacy TDM. Yeah. So you just put them in and you walked away and you still did all your enterprise. You still did all of your applications, but you had your own private data centers. Everything was nicer. It was that fortress mentality right now. It's different. Now everybody needs broadband. Well guess what? Comcast is a big company, but we don't have broadband everywhere. ATT doesn't have it. Verizon doesn't have it Charter doesn't have it. Right. So you need, so now to think about that from enterprise, I'm going to go, I'll give you an example. All of our customers to fulfill a nationwide network, just for the broadband infrastructure, that's, you know, redundant. If you want to think of it that way we, we source probably 200 to 300 different providers to provide an ubiquitous network nationwide for broadband. Then we wrap a layer of the SD wan infrastructure for that, as an example, over the top of that, right? You can't do that by yourself. I mean, people try and they fail. And that's the role of a managed service provider like us is to pull all that together. Take that away. We have that expertise. >> Interviewer: I think this is a really interesting point. Let's just unpack that just for a second. Yeah. In the old days, we want to do an interconnect. You had an agreement. You did, you have your own stuff, do an interconnected connect. >> Glen: Yep. >> Now this, all this mishmash, you got to traverse multiple hops, different networks. >> Glen: That's right >> Different owners, different don't know what's on that. So you guys have to basically stitch this together, hang it together and make it work. And you guys put software on the top and make sure it's cool is that how it works? >> Glen: Yeah. Software and different technology components for the SD wan. And then we would deliver the shore and manager all that. And that's, that's where I really like what's happening in the industry, at least in terminology, which is they try, you have to try to simplify that because it's very, very complicated, but I'm going to give you the network as a service mean, I'm going to give you all the transport and you have to don't have to worry about it. I'm going to rent you the, the SD wan technology. And then I'm going to have in my gateways all these security components for a firewall as a service, zero trust network access, cloud brokerage services. So I will secure all of your data as you go to the cloud and do all of that for you. That's really what we, that's what we bring to the table. And that's what is really, really hard for enterprises to do today. Just because they can't, the expertise needed to do that is just not there. >> Interviewer: Well, what's interesting is that first you have to do it now because the reality of your business now is you don't do it. You won't have customers, but you're making it easier for them. So they don't have to think about it. - [Glen] That's right. >> But now you bring in hybrid networking hybrid cloud, they call it or multi-cloud right. It's essentially a distributed computing and essentially what you're doing, but with multiple typologies, >> Glen: that's right. >> Interviewer: I got an edge device. - [Glen] That's right. If I'm a business. - [Glen] That's right. >> That's where it could be someone working at home >> Glen: That's right. - Or it could be my retail >> Or whatever it could be. So edge is just an extension of what you guys already do. And is that right? Am I getting that right? >> Glen: Yeah that's exactly right. And, and, but the point is, is to make it economic and to make it really work for the end user. If you're a branch, you may have a, a application that's still being run via VPN, but you also need wifi internet for your customers because you want to use your mobile device. They've entered into your store and you want to be able to track that right. And push something to them. And then you've got the actual store applications could be point of sales could be back of house comparing that's going up to AWS. Azura whatever. Right. And that all has to be, it all has to come from one particular branch and someone has to be able to manage that capability. >> Interviewer: It's funny, - Its so different >> Interviewer: just as you're talking, I'm just thinking, okay. Facial recognition, high, high bandwidth requirements, >> Glen: Huge high bandwidth requirements >> Processing at the edge becomes huge. >> Glen: It does. >> So that becomes a new dynamic. >> Glen: It does. It's got to be more dynamic. It's not a static IP end point. >> Glen: Well, I'll give you another an example. Let's say it's, it seems silly, but it's so important from a business perspective, your quick service restaurant, the amount of digital sales from applications are just skyrocketing. And if you yourself, and particularly in the pandemic, you order something, or that goes up to the cloud, comes back through, goes to the point of sales. And then the, the back of house network in a particular restaurant, if that doesn't get there, because one line of you only have one internet connection and it's down, which sometimes happens, right? You lose business, you lose that customer. It's so important. So what's being pushed down to the edge is, you know, reliable broadband hybrid networks, where you have a primary wire line and a secondary wire line, maybe a tertiary wireless or whatever. And then a box, a device that can manage between those two so that you can keep that 99.9, 9% availability at your branch, just for those simple types of applications. >> Interviewer: You know Glenn, you as you're talking most people, when we talk tech, like this is mostly inside the ropes, Hey, I can get it. But most people can relate with the pandemic because they've ordered with their phone on - [Glen] Exactly right >> With the QR code. - [Glen] That's exactly right >> They see the menu - [Glen] That's right >> They get now what's happening - [Glen] That's right that their phone is now connected to the service. >> Glen: That's right >> This is not going away. The new normal. >> Glen: No, it's absolutely here. And what I've seen are there are many, many companies that already knew this and understood this pre pandemic. And they were, they had already changed their infrastructure to really fit what I was calling that network as a service in the SASE model, in different ways. Then there were a bunch that didn't, and I'm not going to name names, but you can look at those companies and you can see how they're, they're struggling terribly. But then there was this. Now there's a, a much bigger push and privatization again, see, I was sending, Hey, I asked for this before. It's not like the CIO didn't know, but management said, well, maybe it wasn't important. Now it is. And so you're seeing this actual amazing surge in business requests and requirements to go to the model that we're all talking about here, which is that SASE type of implementation high-speed broadband. That's not going away for the same reason. And you need a resilient network, right? Yes. >> Interesting. Best practice. Let's just take that advice to the, to the audience. I want to get your thoughts because people who didn't do any R and D or experimentation prior to the pandemic, didn't have cloud. Wasn't thinking about this new architecture got caught flat-footed. -Exactly. >> And they're hurting and or out of business. >> Correct. >> If people who were on the right side of that took advantage as a tailwind and they got lifts. >> That's exactly right. >> So what is the best practice? How should a business think about putting their toe in the water a little bit or jumping in and getting immersed in the new, new architecture? What advice would you give? Because people don't want to be in the wrong side of history. >> No, they don't. >> What's your guy's best practice? >> I may sound biased, but I'm really not trying to be biased. And this'll be some of the I'll speak about here later today. You have to try it. You, as the end user, the enterprise customer, to, to fulfill these types of needs, you've got to really probe your managed service providers. You've got to understand which ones, not just can give you a nice technology presentation and maybe a POC, but who's going to be there for the longterm who has the economic wherewithal to be able to give the resources needed to do what I was talking about, which is you're going to outsource your entire network to me and your sh, and a good portion of your security for the network to a service provider. that service provider has to be able to provide all that has to be able to have the financial capabilities, to be able to provide you with an operating type of model, not you have to buying equipment all the time. That service provider has to be able to have teams that can deliver all of that 200 to 300 different types of providers aggregate all that, and then be there for day two. Simple thing. Like if you know, most companies, if you're not a really large location, you can't afford to, you know, double types of routers that are connected. And if one fails you have fail over, right, most of them will have one router and they'll have, but they'll have two backup paths. Well, what happens is that router or switch, single switch fails? You need to have a meantime to repair a four hours. I mean, that's kind of basic and well do that. How do you do that? You've got to have depots around the entire country. These are the types of questions that any enterprise customers should be probing their managed service provider, right? It's not just about the technology. It's about how can you deliver this and assure this going forward. >> And agility too cause when, if, if things do change rapidly, being agile... >> Exactly >> means shifting and being flexible with your business. >> That's exactly right. And that's important. That's a really important question. And the agility comes from this financial agility, right? Like new threat, new box. I want, I want this old one. I'm going to upgrade to a different type of service. The service providers should be able to do that without me having to force you to go get some more CapEx and buy some more stuff. Cause that's number one. But the other agility is every enterprise is different. Every enterprise believes that its network is the only network in the world and they have opinions and they've tested different technologies. And you're going to have to adapt a little bit to that. And if you don't, you're not going to get out of this. >> It's funny. The old days non-disruptive operations was like a benefit, we have non-disrupt- now it's a table stakes. You can't disrupt businesses. - You can't. You can't at the branch at the remote worker. If you're on a zoom call or whatever, or you're on a teams call, we've all been there. We're still doing it. If it breaks in the middle of a presentation to a customer that's problem. >> Glenn thanks for coming on the cube with great insight. >> Oh great. This was fun. >> Are you exciting and plays golf? You're going to get out there on the range? >> I played, I played golf a lot when I was younger, but I haven't. And so I have a few other things I do, but I guess I'm going to have to learn now that we're also a sponsor of PGA, so yeah, for sure. >> Great. Well, great to have you on - All right thank you and great talk. Thanks for coming on and sharing your insight. >> This was great. I appreciate okay. >> Keep coverage here. Napa valley with Fortinet's Cybersecurity Summit as part of their PGA tour event, that's happening this weekend. I'm John for the Cube. Thanks for watching.

>> Narrator: From around the globe it's theCUBE with digital coverage of IBM Think 2021 brought to you by IBM. >> Hello and welcome back to the cube's ongoing coverage of IBM Think 2021, the virtual edition. My name is Dave Vellante and I'm excited to introduce our next segment. We're going to dig into the intersection of machines and humans and the changing nature of work, worker productivity, and the potential of humans. With me is Glenn Finch, who is the global managing partner for data and AI at IBM Glenn, great to see you again. Thanks for coming on. >> Dave. Good to be with you, always a lot of fun to chat. >> I'm interested in this concept that you've been working on about amplifying worker potential. You've got humans, you've got digital workers coming together. Maybe you could talk a little bit about what you're seeing at that intersection. >> You know, it's interesting for most of my career I've always thought about amplifying human worker potential. And, you know, I would say over the last five years, you know we start to think about this concept of digital workers and amplifying their potential so that human potential can extend even further. What's cool is when we get them both to work together: amplifying digital worker potential, amplifying human worker potential, to radically change how service is experienced by an end consumer. I mean, that's really the winner is when you start seeing the end consumer, the end user fundamentally feeling the difference in the experience. >> I mean, a lot of the, you see a lot of the trade press and the journalists, they like to focus on the sort of the negative of automation. But when you talk to people who have implemented things take, for example, RPA, they're so happy that they're not having to do these menial tasks anymore. And then it's sort of the interesting discussion is, okay, well, what are you doing with your free time? What are you doing with your weekends? So how should we be thinking about that? What you, what you called amplifying human worker potential, what has to occur for that outcome? >> And you know, that all my life I've spent time making money for people, right? And this last year I was involved in a project where it, it fundamentally changed is tied to answer that exact question. You know, the service men and women in America who are willing to risk their lives, you know for our country, they file claims for medical benefits. And on average, it would take 15 days to get a response. We actually, for about 70 or 80% of them we've taken that down to like 15 minutes. And to do that, you can't just drop in a RPA. You can't just drop in AI. You, it's not one thing, right? It's this, it's this seamless interaction between digital workers and human workers, right? So that a lot of the more routine mundane tasks can be done by AI and, and robotics, but all of the really hard complex cases that only a human being can adjudicate, that's what the folks that were doing the more mundane work can go focus on. So, I mean, that's what makes me come to work every day is if I can change the life of a service man or woman that was willing to risk their lives for our country. So that that's, that's the concept. Now, the critical piece of what I said, it's not about implementing AI and robotics anymore, because a lot of that starts to get very rote, but picking up on, okay, we've liberated this block of human capability. How do we reposition it? How do we re-skill it? How do we get them to focus on new things? That's just as important the human change aspect, incredibly important. >> Yeah. I mean, that's interesting, because you're right. I mean, the downside, you mentioned RPA a lot of it is paving the cow path and you know the human in the loop piece has been has been missing and that's obviously changing. But what about the flip side of that equation? Where, you know, you asked the question, okay what can humans do that machines can't do? That equation you know, continues to evolve, but maybe you could talk about where you've amplified the digital worker potential. >> Yeah. So, you know, one of our clients has Anthem and you know, they've been on a variety of programs with us to talk about this, but, you know we just recorded, you know, another session with them for Think where the Chief Technology Officer came and talked about how they wanted to radically change their member experience. And when you think about the last year, I mean, I don't know, Dave, I know you travel a lot cause I see you in all the places that I'm in. But I don't know if you remember, like 15 months ago if you had to wait on the phone for two minutes you thought it was an eternity, right? You're like, what's the matter with me? I'm a frequent flyer. I deserve a better service than this. Then as COVID started roll around, those wait times were two hours, and then 30 days into COVID, if you got a call back within two days or two weeks, it was a blessing, right? So all of our expectations changed in an instant, right? So I have to say over the last 12 to 15 months that's where we've been spending a lot of our time in all of those human contact, human touch places to radically transition the ability to be responsive and touch people with the same experience that we had 15 months ago to get an answer back in two minutes. You can't get enough people right now to do that. And so we're forced to make sure that the digital experience is what that needs to be. So the digital worker has to be up and on, and extending the brand experience the same way that the human worker was back when everybody could be at a call center. That make sense, Dave? >> Yeah. I mean, what I think I like about this conversation Glenn is it's not an either/or, it's not a zero-sum game, which it kind of, they sort of used to be, I mean we've talked about this before humans and machines have always replaced humans at certain tasks, but it never really had cognitive tasks. And that's why I think there's a lot of fear out there, but what you're talking about is, is a potential to amplify both human and digital capabilities. And I think that people might look at that and say, well, wait a minute. Isn't it a zero-sum game, but it but it's not. Explain why. >> Yeah. So we're never finding the zero-sum game, because there is always something for people to do, right? And so, you know I talked about the one amplification of digital worker at Anthem. Let me switch to an amplification of a human worker. So state of Rhode Island, you know, we had the great honor to work with their governor and their department of health and human services around again, around the whole COVID thing. We started out just answering basic questions and helping with contact racing. And then, from there, we moved into, you know helping them with their data in AI, being able to answer questions. Why are there hotspots? Why, you know, should I shut this portion of the city down? Should I shut bars down? Should I do this? And the governor and the health and human services director were constantly saying in press briefings in the morning. Well, you know, we learned from our partners IBM that we want to consider this, right? And we did pinpoint vaccinations and other things like that. To me, that's that whole continuum. So, you know, we liberated some people from one spot. They went to work in another spot, all human beings guided by AI. So, you know, I think this is all about, you know for the first time in our lives, being able to realize sort of the, the vaulted member experience or client experience that everybody's already talked about using a blend of digital workers and human workers. It's just, it's all about the experience I think. >> I mean, you're, you're laying out some really good outcomes and you mentioned some of the, you know, the folks in the military, the healthcare examples and I'm struck because if you think about the, look at the numbers, I mean the productivity gains over the last 20 years particularly in the US and Europe, it's not the case for China because their productivity is exploding, but but it's gone down. And so when you think about the big problems that we face in society: climate change, income inequality, I mean these are big chewy problems that, you know aren't going to, humans, you just can't throw humans at the problem that's, that's been been proven. And I'm curious as to if, you know how you see it in terms of some of those other outcomes of, and the potential that is there. And, can you give us a glimpse as to what tech is involved underneath all of this? >> Sure. So, you know the first one outcomes you know that whole picture changes with the business cycle, right? I'd love to tell you that it's always these three outcomes, but, you know during downturns and business cycles cost-based outcomes are, you know, are paramount, because people are thinking about survival, right? In upticks, people are worried about, you know converting new business, growth, they're worried about net promoter score, they're worried about experience score. And then over the last 12 to 18 months, you know we've seen this whole concept of carbon footprint and sustainability all tied into the outcomes. So, hey, did you realize that shifting these 22 legacy applications from here to the cloud would reduce your carbon footprint by 3%? No. Right? And so, the big hitters are always, you know, the, the cost metric, the sort of time to value or the whole cycle time and the process and net promoter score. Those are generally in all of the, you know all the plays, obviously the bookends, you know around what's happening with, you know, the the economy, what's happening with carbon, what's happening with sustainability are always in there. Now on the technology side, boy, that's the cool part about working for IBM, right? Is that there's a new thing that shows up on my door every two weeks from either the math and science labs, or from a new ecosystem partner. And that's one of the things that I will say about you know, over the last 12 to 15 months, you've seen this massive shift from IBM to go away from pure blue, to embrace the whole ecosystem. So, you know, Dave the stuff I work with every day is you know, AI, computer vision, blockchain, automation, quantum, connected operations, not just software robots but now human robots, digital twin, all these things where we are digitally rendering what used to be a very paper-based legacy, right? So, boy, I couldn't be more excited to be a part of that. And then now with the opening up to all the hyperscalers, the Microsoft, the Google, the Amazon, the, you know, Salesforce, Adobe, all those folks, it's like a candy store. And quite honestly, my single greatest challenge is to kind of bring all of that together and point it at a series of three or four buyers at a chief marketing officer, experience officer for the whole customer piece. At a chief human resource officer around the town piece and at a CFO or a chief procurement officer for finance and supply chain. I'm sorry to answer, so, you know, long-winded, but it's, it's awesome out there. >> That was a great answer. And I think, you know, I joked the other day, Glenn that Milton Friedman must be turning over in his grave because he said, you know the only job of a company is to make profits for its shareholders and increase shareholder value. But, ironically, you know things like ESG, sustainability, climate change, they actually make business sense. So it's really not antithetical to, you know Friedman economics necessarily, but it's a good business. And I think, I think the other thing that I'm excited about is that there is some like deep tech we're seeing an explosion of of something as fundamental as processing power like we've never seen before, but he talks about, you know Moore's law being dead well, okay. With the doubling of of processor performance every 24 months, we're now at a quadrupling when you include GPU's and NPUs and accelerators and all that. I mean, that is going to power the the next wave of machine intelligence. And that really is exciting. >> Yeah. I, you know, it's I feel blessed every day to come to work that you know, I can, amass all these technologies and change how human beings experience service. I mean that's, man, that whole service experience that's what I've lived for, for, you know two and a half decades in my career, is to not to just to make and deploy stuff that's cool technically, but to change people's lives. I mean, that's it for me, that's, you know, that's that's the way that I want to ride, so I couldn't be more excited to do that stuff. >> Well Glenn thanks so much for coming on your passion shows right through the camera. And hopefully we're, face-to-face, you know, sometime soon maybe, maybe later on this year, but for sure. Knock on wood, 2022. All right. Hey, great to see you, thank you so much >> Dave. Same to you, thanks. Have a great rest of the day. >> All right, thank you. And thanks for following along with our continuing broadcast of IBM Think 2021, you're watching the cube the leader, digital tech coverage, be right back.

>>from around the globe. It's the >>cube presenting >>active de que intelligent automation for data quality brought to you by Iota Ho >>Welcome to the sixth episode of the I. O. Tahoe data automation series. On the cube. We're gonna start off with a segment on how to accelerate the adoption of snowflake with Glenn Grossman, who is the enterprise account executive from Snowflake and yusef khan, the head of data services from Iota. Gentlemen welcome. >>Good afternoon. Good morning, Good evening. Dave. >>Good to see you. Dave. Good to see you. >>Okay glenn uh let's start with you. I mean the Cube hosted the snowflake data cloud summit in November and we heard from customers and going from love the tagline zero to snowflake, you know, 90 minutes very quickly. And of course you want to make it simple and attractive for enterprises to move data and analytics into the snowflake platform but help us understand once the data is there, how is snowflake helping to achieve savings compared to the data lake? >>Absolutely. dave. It's a great question, you know, it starts off first with the notion and uh kind of, we coined it in the industry or t shirt size pricing. You know, you don't necessarily always need the performance of a high end sports car when you're just trying to go get some groceries and drive down the street 20 mph. The t shirt pricing really aligns to, depending on what your operational workload is to support the business and the value that you need from that business? Not every day. Do you need data? Every second of the moment? Might be once a day, once a week through that t shirt size price and we can align for the performance according to the environmental needs of the business. What those drivers are the key performance indicators to drive that insight to make better decisions, It allows us to control that cost. So to my point, not always do you need the performance of a Ferrari? Maybe you need the performance and gas mileage of the Honda Civic if you would just get and deliver the value of the business but knowing that you have that entire performance landscape at a moments notice and that's really what what allows us to hold and get away from. How much is it going to cost me in a data lake type of environment? >>Got it. Thank you for that yussef. Where does Io Tahoe fit into this equation? I mean what's, what's, what's unique about the approach that you're taking towards this notion of mobilizing data on snowflake? >>Well, Dave in the first instance we profile the data itself at the data level, so not just at the level of metadata and we do that wherever that data lives. So it could be structured data could be semi structured data could be unstructured data and that data could be on premise. It could be in the cloud or it could be on some kind of SAAS platform. And so we profile this data at the source system that is feeding snowflake within snowflake itself within the end applications and the reports that the snowflake environment is serving. So what we've done here is take our machine learning discovery technology and make snowflake itself the repository for knowledge and insights on data. And this is pretty unique. Uh automation in the form of our P. A. Is being applied to the data both before after and within snowflake. And so the ultimate outcome is that business users can have a much greater degree of confidence that the data they're using can be trusted. Um The other thing we do uh which is unique is employee data R. P. A. To proactively detect and recommend fixes the data quality so that removes the manual time and effort and cost it takes to fix those data quality issues. Uh If they're left unchecked and untouched >>so that's key to things their trust, nobody's gonna use the data. It's not trusted. But also context. If you think about it, we've contextualized are operational systems but not our analytic system. So there's a big step forward glen. I wonder if you can tell us how customers are managing data quality when they migrate to snowflake because there's a lot of baggage in in traditional data warehouses and data lakes and and data hubs. Maybe you can talk about why this is a challenge for customers. And like for instance can you proactively address some of those challenges that customers face >>that we certainly can. They have. You know, data quality. Legacy data sources are always inherent with D. Q. Issues whether it's been master data management and data stewardship programs over the last really almost two decades right now, you do have systemic data issues. You have siloed data, you have information operational, data stores data marks. It became a hodgepodge when organizations are starting their journey to migrate to the cloud. One of the things that were first doing is that inspection of data um you know first and foremost even looking to retire legacy data sources that aren't even used across the enterprise but because they were part of the systemic long running operational on premise technology, it stayed there when we start to look at data pipelines as we onboard a customer. You know we want to do that era. We want to do QA and quality assurance so that we can, And our ultimate goal eliminate the garbage in garbage out scenarios that we've been plagued with really over the last 40, 50 years of just data in general. So we have to take an inspection where traditionally it was E. T. L. Now in the world of snowflake, it's really lt we're extracting were loading or inspecting them. We're transforming out to the business so that these routines could be done once and again give great business value back to making decisions around the data instead of spending all this long time. Always re architect ng the data pipeline to serve the business. >>Got it. Thank you. Glenda yourself of course. Snowflakes renowned for customers. Tell me all the time. It's so easy. It's so easy to spin up a data warehouse. It helps with my security. Again it simplifies everything but so you know, getting started is one thing but then adoption is also a key. So I'm interested in the role that that I owe. Tahoe plays in accelerating adoption for new customers. >>Absolutely. David. I mean as Ben said, you know every every migration to Snowflake is going to have a business case. Um uh and that is going to be uh partly about reducing spending legacy I. T. Servers, storage licenses, support all those good things um that see I want to be able to turn off entirely ultimately. And what Ayatollah does is help discover all the legacy undocumented silos that have been built up, as Glenn says on the data estate across a period of time, build intelligence around those silos and help reduce those legacy costs sooner by accelerating that that whole process. Because obviously the quicker that I. T. Um and Cdos can turn off legacy data sources the more funding and resources going to be available to them to manage the new uh Snowflake based data estate on the cloud. And so turning off the old building, the new go hand in hand to make sure those those numbers stack up the program is delivered uh and the benefits are delivered. And so what we're doing here with a Tahoe is improving the customers are y by accelerating their ability to adopt Snowflake. >>Great. And I mean we're talking a lot about data quality here but in a lot of ways that's table stakes like I said, if you don't trust the data, nobody's going to use it. And glenn, I mean I look at Snowflake and I see obviously the ease of use the simplicity you guys are nailing that the data sharing capabilities I think are really exciting because you know everybody talks about sharing data but then we talked about data as an asset, Everyone so high I to hold it. And so sharing is is something that I see as a paradigm shift and you guys are enabling that. So one of the things beyond data quality that are notable that customers are excited about that, maybe you're excited about >>David, I think you just cleared it out. It's it's this massive data sharing play part of the data cloud platform. Uh you know, just as of last year we had a little over about 100 people, 100 vendors in our data marketplace. That number today is well over 450 it is all about democratizing and sharing data in a world that is no longer held back by FTp s and C. S. V. S and then the organization having to take that data and ingested into their systems. You're a snowflake customer. want to subscribe to an S and P data sources an example, go subscribe it to it. It's in your account there was no data engineering, there was no physical lift of data and that becomes the most important thing when we talk about getting broader insights, data quality. Well, the data has already been inspected from your vendor is just available in your account. It's obviously a very simplistic thing to describe behind the scenes is what our founders have created to make it very, very easy for us to democratize not only internal with private sharing of data, but this notion of marketplace ensuring across your customers um marketplace is certainly on the type of all of my customers minds and probably some other areas that might have heard out of a recent cloud summit is the introduction of snow park and being able to do where all this data is going towards us. Am I in an ale, you know, along with our partners at Io Tahoe and R. P. A. Automation is what do we do with all this data? How do we put the algorithms and targets now? We'll be able to run in the future R and python scripts and java libraries directly inside Snowflake, which allows you to even accelerate even faster, Which people found traditionally when we started off eight years ago just as a data warehousing platform. >>Yeah, I think we're on the cusp of just a new way of thinking about data. I mean obviously simplicity is a starting point but but data by its very nature is decentralized. You talk about democratizing data. I like this idea of the global mesh. I mean it's very powerful concept and again it's early days but you know, keep part of this is is automation and trust, yussef you've worked with Snowflake and you're bringing active D. Q. To the market what our customers telling you so far? >>Well David the feedback so far has been great. Which is brilliant. So I mean firstly there's a point about speed and acceleration. Um So that's the speed to incite really. So where you have inherent data quality issues uh whether that's with data that was on premise and being brought into snowflake or on snowflake itself, we're able to show the customer results and help them understand their data quality better Within Day one which is which is a fantastic acceleration. I'm related to that. There's the cost and effort to get that insight is it's a massive productivity gain versus where you're seeing customers who've been struggling sometimes too remediate legacy data and legacy decisions that they've made over the past couple of decades, so that that cost and effort is much lower than it would otherwise have been. Um 3rdly, there's confidence and trust, so you can see Cdos and see IOS got demonstrable results that they've been able to improve data quality across a whole bunch of use cases for business users in marketing and customer services, for commercial teams, for financial teams. So there's that very quick kind of growth in confidence and credibility as the projects get moving. And then finally, I mean really all the use cases for the snowflake depend on data quality, really whether it's data science, uh and and the kind of snow park applications that Glenn has talked about, all those use cases work better when we're able to accelerate the ri for our joint customers by very quickly pushing out these data quality um insights. Um And I think one of the one of the things that the snowflake have recognized is that in order for C. I. O. Is to really adopt enterprise wide, um It's also as well as the great technology with Snowflake offers, it's about cleaning up that legacy data state, freeing up the budget for CIA to spend it on the new modern day to a state that lets them mobilise their data with snowflake. >>So you're seeing the Senate progression. We're simplifying the the the analytics from a tech perspective. You bring in Federated governance which which brings more trust. Then then you bring in the automation of the data quality piece which is fundamental. And now you can really start to, as you guys are saying, democratized and scale uh and share data. Very powerful guys. Thanks so much for coming on the program. Really appreciate your time. >>Thank you. I appreciate as well. Yeah.

>>from >>Around the globe. It's the cube with digital coverage of IBM think 2021 brought to you by IBM >>Hello and welcome back to the cubes ongoing coverage of IBM Think 2021. The virtual edition, my name is David and I'm excited to introduce our next segment. We're going to dig into the intersection of machines and humans and the changing nature of work, worker productivity and the potential of humans with me is Glenn Finch, who's the global managing partner for data and ai at IBM Glenn great to see you again. Thanks for coming on. >>Dave good to be with you. Always a lot of fun to chat. >>So I'm interested in this concept that you've been working on about amplifying worker potential. You've got humans, you've got digital workers coming together and maybe you could talk a little bit about what you're seeing at that intersection. >>You know, it's um it's interesting for most of my career, I've always thought about um amplifying human worker potential. And you know I would say over the last five years we start to think about this concept of digital workers and amplifying their potential so that human potential can extend even further. What's cool is when we get them both to work together, amplifying digital worker potential. Amplifying human worker potential to radically change how services experienced by an end consumer. I mean that's really the winner is when you start seeing the end consumer, the end user fundamentally feeling the difference in the experience. >>I mean a lot of the you see a lot of the trade press and the journalists they like to focus on the sort of the negative of automation. But when you talk to people who have implemented things they take it, for example R. P. A. They're so happy that they're not have to do these menial tasks anymore. And then it sort of the interesting discussion is, okay well what are you what are you doing with your free time? What are you doing with your weekend? So how should we be thinking about that? What you what you called? Amplifying human worker potential? What has to occur for that outcome? >>You know? Um The all my life I've spent time making money for people, right? And this uh last year I was involved in a project where it fundamentally changed. It's tied to answer that exact question. You know the servicemen and women in America who are willing to risk their lives. Um you know for our country um they file claims for medical benefits. And on average it would take 15 days to get a response Actually for about 70 or 80 of them. We've taken that down to like 15 minutes and to do that. You can't just drop in a R. P. A. You can't just drop in a. I. It's not one thing right? It's this it's this seamless interaction between digital workers and human workers right? So that a lot of the more routine mundane tasks can be done by ai and robotics. But all of the really hard complex cases that only a human being can adjudicate. That's what the folks that were doing, the more monday work can can go focus on. So I mean God that's what makes me come to work every day is if I can change the life of a serviceman or woman that was willing to risk their lives for our country. So that's that's the concept now. The critical piece of what I said, it's not about implementing Ai and robotics anymore because a lot of that started to get very wrote but picking up on okay we've liberated this block of human capability. How do we reposition it? How do we re skillet? How do we get them to focus on new things? That's just as important. The human change aspect incredibly important. >>Yeah, I mean that's interesting because you're right. I mean the downside, you mentioned our P. A. A lot of it is paving the cow path and you know the human in the loop piece has been it's been missing and that's obviously changing. But what about the what about the flip side of that equation? Where you know you ask the question okay what can humans do that machines can't do that equation continues to evolve. But maybe you could talk about where you have amplified the digital worker potential. >>Yeah. So you know um one of our clients is anthem and you know we've you know they've been on a variety of programs with us to talk about this. But you know, we just recorded, um, you know, another session with them for think where, um, the chief technology officer came and talked about how they wanted to radically change their member experience. And when you think about the last year, I mean, I don't know. Dave, I know you travel a lot because I see you in all the places that I'm in, right? But I don't remember like 15 months ago, if you had to wait on the phone for two minutes, you thought it was an eternity, right? You're like, what's the matter with me? I'm a frequent flyer. I deserve a better service on this. Then as Covid started to roll around those wait times or two hours and then 30 days into Covid. If you got a call back within two days or two weeks, it was a blessing. Right? So all of our expectations changed in an instant. Right? So I have to say, over the last 12-15 months, that's where we've been spending a lot of our time in all of those human contact human touch places to radically transition the ability to be responsive, touch people with With the same experience that we had 15 months ago to get an answer back in two minutes. You can't get enough people right now to do that. And so we're forced to make sure that the digital experience is what that needs to be. So the digital worker has to be up and on and extending the brand. Experience the same way that the human worker was back when everybody could be at a call center. That makes sense. Yeah. I >>mean, I think I like about this conversation, Glenn is it's not an either or. It's not a zero sum game, which is kind of, it's sort of used to be. I mean, we've talked about this before. Humans have machines have always replaced humans at certain tasks, but never really a cognitive task. And that's why I think there's a lot of fear out there. But what you're talking about is is the potential to amplify both human and digital capabilities. And I think people might look at that and say, well wait a minute, is it isn't a zero sum game, but it's not explain why. >>Yes, So we're never finding the zero sum game because there is um there is always something for people to do, right? And so, you know, I talked about the one an amplification of digital worker at anthem, let me let me switch to an amplification of a human worker, right? So state of Rhode Island, Um you know, we had the great honor to work with their governor and their Department of Health and Human Services, around again, around the whole covid thing. We started out just answering basic questions and helping with contact tracing. And then from there we moved into helping them with their data and ai being able to answer questions. Why are there are hotspots? Why should I shut this person of the city down? Should I shut fires down? Should I do this? And the Governor and Health and human Services Director were constantly saying on press briefings in the morning. Well, you know, we learned from our partners, IBM, that we want to consider this, right? And we we did pinpoint vaccinations and and other things like that. To me, that's that whole continuum. So, you know, we liberated some people from one spot. They went to work in another spot. All human beings guided by ai so, you know, I think this is all about, you know, for the first time in our lives being able to realize sort of the vaulted member experience or client experience that everybody has already talked about using a blend of digital workers and human workers. It's just it's all about the experience. I think >>you're laying out some really good outcomes. You mentioned some of the folks in the military, the healthcare examples. Um and I'm struck because if you think about look at the numbers, I mean the productivity gains over the last 20 years, particularly in the US. and Europe, doesn't it's not the case for China the productivity exploding, but but it's gone down. And so when you think about the big problems that we face in society, um climate change, income inequality, I mean, these are big, chewy problems that, you know, what kind of humans, you just can't throw humans at the problem that's, that's been proven. Um, and I'm curious as to if you know how you see it in terms of some of those other outcomes of the potential that is there and, and, and can you give us a glimpse as to what tech is involved underneath all this? Sure. >>So, you know, um, the first of all on outcomes, you know, that whole picture changes with the business cycle, right? I'd love to tell you that it's always these three outcomes, but you know, during downturns in business cycles, costs based outcomes are, you know, are paramount because people are thinking about survival right? In upticks, people are worried about, you know, converting new business growth, they're worried about net promoter score, they're worried about experience score. And then Over the last 12 to 18 months, you know, we've seen this whole concept of carbon footprint and sustainability All tied into the outcomes. So hey, did you realize that shifting these 22 legacy applications from here to the cloud would reduce your carbon footprint by 3%? No. Right. And so, so you know, the big hitters are always, you know, the cost metric, the sort of time to value or the whole cycle time of the process and net promoter score. Those are generally in all of the, you know, all the plays, obviously the book ends, you know, around, um, what's happening with, you know, the, the economy, what's happening with carbon, what's happening with sustainability are always in there. Now, the technology side boy, that's the cool part about working for IBM, right, is that there is a new thing that shows up on my door every two weeks from either the math and science labs or from a new ecosystem partner. Right. And that's one of the things that I will say about over the last 12 to 15 months, you've seen this massive shift from IBM to to go away from pure blue to embrace the whole ecosystem. So you know, Dave the stuff I work with every day is, you know, ai computer vision, Blockchain automation, quantum uh connected operations. Uh not just software robots, but now human robots, Digital Twin, all these things where we are digitally rendering um what used to be a very paper based legacy. Right. So boy, I couldn't be more excited to be a part of that. And then now with the opening up to all the hyper scholars, the Microsoft, the google the amazon, the, you know, uh salesforce adobe, all those folks. It's like a candy store. And quite honestly, my single greatest challenge is to kind of bring all of that together and point it at a series of three or 4 buyers at a chief marketing officer experience officer for the whole customer piece, at a chief human resource officer around the town peace and at a CFO or a chief procurement officer for finance and supply chain. I'm sorry to answer. So, you know, long winded, but it's it's awesome out there. >>It was a great answer. And I think, you know, I joke the other day, glenn that Milton Friedman must be turned over his grave because he said, you know, the only job of a company has to make profits for shareholders and increase shareholder value. But but you're but but ironically, you know, things like E. S. G. Sustainability, his climate change, he said they actually make business sense. So it's really not antithetical to Friedman economics necessarily but it's good business. And I think I think the other thing that I'm excited about is that there is some like deep tech we're seeing an explosion of of something as fundamental as processing power like we've never seen before but he talks about Moore's law being dead. Well okay with the doubling of of of of processor performance every 24 months. We're now at a quadrupling when you include GPU S. And N. P. U. S. And accelerators and all. I mean that is gonna power the next wave of machine intelligence and that really is exciting. >>Yeah I am. You know it's I feel blessed every day to come to work that you know I can you know a mass all these technologies and change how human beings experience service. I mean that's man, that whole service experience. that's what I've lived for for, you know, 2.5 decades in my career is to not just just to make and deploy stuff. That's cool, technically, but to change people's lives. I mean, that's it for me. That's you know, that's that's the way that I want to ride. So I couldn't be more excited to do that stuff. Well, glad >>Thanks so much for coming on. Is your your passion shows right through the camera and hopefully we'll face to face, you know, sometime soon, maybe, maybe later on this year. But for sure Lockwood 2022. All right. Hey, great to see you. Thank you so much. >>Dave same to you. Thanks have a great rest of the day. >>All right. Thank you. And thanks for following along with our continuing broadcast of IBM think 2021 you're watching the cube the leader in digital tech coverage right back. Mhm. Yeah.

(relaxing electronic music) >> Narrator: From around the globe, it's theCUBE! With digital coverage of Next Level Network Experience event. Brought to you by Infoblox. >> Welcome back to theCUBE's coverage, we're here in our Palo Alto studios. I'm John Furrier, host of theCUBE. We're here with Infoblox for their Next Level Networking virtual event with theCUBE. Glenn Sullivan is our guest, Principal Product Manager with Infoblox, formerly with SnapRoute, theCUBE alumni. Great to have you back on, Glenn. Great to see you, and thanks for jumping on remotely. We're doing the remote thing, the remote CUBE, good to see you. >> Yeah, it's great! I wish I could be in the studio, you guys have a great studio up there in Palo Alto, so I wish I could have joined you, but that's not possible right now. (chuckles) >> The governor's on, is off, we're get there, but when it does come back we'll certainly do a lot more remotes, and want to go to a "hybrid world." Hybrid, it sounds like the media business is turning into cloud computing, you got public videos, in person, you got hybrid, and virtual. The cloud native world is certainly spawning everywhere now with COVID, and you guys are talk about Next Level Networking, but with the word Experience. I want to get your thoughts on that because, you know, it's been six months, you've been on theCUBE, a lot's happened. Next Level Networking Experience, describe it. >> Yeah, it's really about processing things as close to where they need to be processed as possible, right? So, you don't really want to put everything in the cloud, you don't really want to have everything happen on-prem, you want to do the right data processing where it's needed, right? Have a little bit on-prem and have a lot in the cloud, or vice versa, it's really about elastic scale, right? That's what I think about with cloud native technologies is being able to run whatever you need to run service-wise as close to the delivery mechanism of either the user, or you know, as close to the app in the cloud as you need to. That's really what it means by, you know, having an elastic scale, and we try to do that every day. >> And notice the word Experience is in there, you know, that's been super important because you build and provision, manage these services from the customer standpoint. I mean, I can't drive in, there's no, there's clothes, or I got to go in, I now can do remotely. This is the key about having abstraction layer innovation, certainly DNS, DHCP, IP address management, never going away, you've got to connect stuff to the internet, I mean the network is there. >> Exactly. >> You've got to be a bit more innovative, what's your thoughts on the impact of the network now that cloud native and open source specifically are driving more action. >> Well, there's a lot going under the hood, right? And you can't just, you know, manage things the way you used to be able to, where you take and you buy a box, you know, it's that cattle vs pets thing that we talk about in cloud native, right? Where you treat this appliance very specifically and very specially, and you upgrade it and you're afraid to touch it. Now that you can't, you know, get the things, you have to do everything lights out. So, what we've learned via applying technologies in the cloud, you know, you didn't go into AWS' data center, or Google's data center, or Microsoft Azure's data center and manage these things, so what we've learned about how to manage infrastructure across the board in networking and compute and storage now is even more important, because everybody's lights out all the time now. >> And scale and speed is critical. I mean, Google's pioneered the concept of SRE, Site Reliability Engineer. What your teasing out, Glenn, is the same kind of concept for the network, you've got to have the security, you've got to have the scale. This is a huge point, can you react to that? >> Yeah, it's about spinning up instances where you need them, you know, when you need them, right? If networking equals a physical black box appliance that you specifically nurture and manage instead of just networking services, right, because DHCP is a networking service, DNS is a networking service, IPAM is a networking service, so you should be able to spin those up wherever you need to and manage those without having to worry about it all being tied to, you know, specific things that you have to manage in a very nurtured way. >> I want to get your thoughts, the term borderless enterprise is being kicked around, you guys use that term. I've heard, you know, the borderless networK, makes sense I guess, but what does the borderless enterprise mean to you. >> Well, it's really just an extension if you think about it from the software defined perimeter concept before. You know, people call it different terms now, but it's just saying that borderless means that I don't have people sitting in a office anymore, and if I do have people sitting in an office, they have the similar experience to people that are connecting remotely, no matter where they are. So, because there is no boundary to your network, right, because the edges of your network don't match edges of your walls in your branches, that's pretty borderless to me, right? And you have to kind of think about, you know, it's not just about adding more firewalls, It's not just about adding more network perimeter security, it's really about how do I apply foundational security across the board. I've been at Infoblocks now for a little over six months, and I can tell you, it's great to see thinking about these foundational services, right? These infrastructure services like DHCP, DNS, and IPAM being really at the foundational layer of the security that you apply to your network. Right, it's the first couple of things that happen, right? The first thing you do is you get an IP address, that's DHCP, you can figure out all kinds of stuff about a device that way. Then you start looking at services with DNS, right? And then it's like, "Okay, well now I've got a lot more information about what the user's doing, where they're going, and how to secure it," right?" So, these sound like they're really your plain vanilla protocol suites, until you really start applying borderless security across the board with them. >> Yeah, a lot of machinations, and also you now have massive amounts of connection points, 'cause with IoT, not only have more in terms of volume of things connecting, but they're being turned on and off very quickly. They have to get connected, so you have that going on. >> Yep, and then you got to make sure that they do what they're supposed to do, right? If they're supposed to phone home to a specific place that they only do that, and that they haven't been hijacked, and somebody isn't mimicking them with malware. There's all kinds of security threats when you start thinking about all the possibilities that IoT brings into account. >> Yeah, some light bulb that you screw in, wifi enabled, has a multi-threaded capability, and be, who knows what's on there, right? (laughs) I mean this is what the reality is, no one knows what connects, a little hygiene comes a long way. I want to just get back into what you said. You've been there for a few months, came from SnapRoute, which was doing some real fine work, that's where we did our feature interview on you and what you were doing there, that technology. With borderless enterprise, what is the role that cloud native and open source play? Because this is your wheelhouse, I want to get your thoughts because when you had that to borderless, things kind of happen. >> There's two things that I like to think about. One, it's scaling things down as skinny as possible, or as big as necessary, right, elastic scale, right? We talk about cloud native technologies, we always talk about elastic scale. Well, what does that mean? Well, that means that am I securing an entire data center? Am I securing a branch office? Am I securing a gas station? Or am I securing a person working from home? You know, this is what we mean by elastic scale. It doesn't mean that I'm, you know, purpose building the spoke specific security profiles for those individual use cases, it means that I have a system that I can scale up and scale down no matter where those folks are, right? That's really what you have to do when you think about cloud native technologies and the borderless network, is you have to be able to run things as close to the user as possible, or as close to the app as possible, or somewhere in between. The second thing that I think is super key is abstraction, right? You can't manage everyone working from home, or you can't manage as many instances as you need with everyone's individual laptop, right? This doesn't scale, right? Abstraction is key to cloud native technologies because it means that I don't pay attention to anything that's below me, right? If I'm an SRE, I don't necessarily care about what type of servers that application set's running on. If I'm a network engineer, I don't really care about the fiber patch panels that connect my network devices together, right? Abstracting away the underlying infrastructure is key for cloud native technologies. So, as we add more and more devices, more and more endpoints, more and more users to manage, we have to make sure that we abstract away the complexity of all the connections that need to be built between those users and whatever, you know, abstraction orchestration layer that we utilize. >> You almost peeled back the onion from the early days of DNS and go to the core, "Hey, I want to connect to this domain." And a packet moves from here to there across an IP address, "Oh, let's add some abstraction on it." This has been the innovation form for the internet for years, right? So, how do you describe the Next Level? Because you mentioned, again, the word Experience is in there, so Next Level means, okay, networks need to be programmable. You do have the Next Level opensource dynamic that you pointed out beautifully, what's that Next Level Experience? How do you see the preferred future evolving? Because if you take this further, if you believe cloud native provides some scale, as you pointed out, it should simplify, these abstraction layers should reduce complexity, or abstract away the complexities and provide more simplicity. >> Absolutely! I mean, I always come at it from an Ops perspective because that's just my background, right? But I was running networks for a long time before I started building, you know, network operating systems, right? I can tell you that what I need is visibility. You know, I need to be able to see what's going on at any given moment. I need to be able to know that the things that I've deployed are up and running. I need to know that the information that I need to troubleshoot the issues that arise is at my fingertips, right? Because I always think about it like the 3:00 a.m. call, right? The network engineer, or sysadmin, or the DNS admin, or it doesn't matter who they are, at 3:00 a.m. they got to wake up because they've just been paged, and something's wrong. And how do they get to what's broken? So, that's one way to think about it. There's also the deployment way to think about it, right? Like how can I deploy as many new users, as many new branches, as many new locations, whatever the process is. You know, you hear zero touch provisioning, you know, all these other, these features, and they come as part of a cloud native mentality, right? They mean that I don't have to do, you know, a whole lot of pre-thinking and pre-staging, and pre-configuration, and pre-thought before I deploy stuff, right? It means I need something, I deploy whatever is required from a service level, I kickstart it, it bootstraps itself, and it joins, right? I take away the headache of having to think about where something is or when it is, and that's a lot of the synergy that we had between what we were doing at SnapRoute and when we came to Infoblox, right? I can tell you, we were pleasantly surprised by the platform that was built, and we were like, "Okay, well this is going to be great! We can add services to this and we don't have to worry about having to go an reinvent the wheel." Because when you choose technologies like Docker containerization, you choose technologies like Kubernetes orchestration and Kubernetes abstraction, you are a lot closer to where you need to be. I mean one of the thing that, you know, isn't super well-known out there is that CoreDNS is one of the major projects that Infoblox helps maintain with inside CNCF, the Cloud Native Compute Foundation, right? CoreDNS ships at the core of every Kubernetes version from now on, you know, as of a few versions ago. So if you think about it, Infoblox has got a lot of cloud native technologies built into everything that we do, and we're one of the key maintainers of one of the key DNS features of something that's at the heart of Kubernetes, and you know, I don't have to tell you how popular Kubernetes is. >> Yeah, we've chatted about that. It sounds like it's the kernel of all the action, DNS, the CoreDNS for Kubernetes. (laughs) >> Exactly, exactly! It's definitely at the core there. >> Glenn, I want to get your thoughts. First of all, I love chatting with you, you mentioned you were from an operating background, but also you can bring a lot of dev into it too, so this is ultimately, to me, the inflection point of where DevOps goes mainstream, because you used to do Ops for a fruit company, Apple? >> Yes, yes, very popular! >> Big one. >> A very popular fruit company called Apple, and we know how hardcore they are, especially they lean heavy on, you know, lock it down, make sure everything's secure, I mean it's well known in the Silicon Valley and around the world, certainly in tech circles, the security mindset. >> Absolutely. >> Large scale operations. Now, you bring also the DevOps aspect of it with cloud native. As that world has to become secure, and networks, it's an Ops game, let's face it. No matter how much DevOps you sprinkle into the equation, at the end of the day, it's Ops. Ops, operations of networks, high availability, large scale. But now you have a little bit of development goin' on on top. The programmable internet past the tip of the network layer, what's your take on that? Because you still need security, you want to have the capability to do some advanced automation. These have been hot new trends, and networking people are now hearing this not for the first time, but it's the new thing where it's like, "Okay, I can have my Ops, but I got to do some Dev now." So make sense of this, where are we in this whole programmable networking aspect? >> Yeah, there's sort of two schools of thought, and it's interesting what's happening, right? You've got kind of, on the extreme left side you've got, "I just treat the network like it's dumb plumbing and I run all of my software overlays on top of it, and I basically treat the network like it doesn't exist." And you know, it's kind of a situation that's been perpetuated by the silos that are out there, where you have the network engineers, and the server compute engineers, or SREs, and then you know, it's like, "Well, these folks never have to talk to each other because we just treat the network like it doesn't exist, and we run overlays on top." And some of the vendors in the server overlay security space have been really proud of that interaction. And I can tell you that that's one way of doing it, but it's not the optimal way, right? Like, when I was a network engineer I could tell you, you're trying to build credibility, right? So, if I was talkin' to a network engineer now, and I'd say like, "How do you get your credibility built with your server folks?" It's kind of like learning a different language, right? If you try, if you try to speak the other language, the person actually is appreciative of that and will help you. So, I always found, you know, find thing things you can automate, run that code base, figure out the API structures, build some pseudo-code together to make it happen, and figure out what you're doing over, and over, and over again and automate it. Automate away, right? And that's some of the nice things that are the same here, right, everything we could ever want to do in any GUI is all REST API'd underneath the hood, right? So it's like, we don't have to pitch to people that, "Oh, you can automate this code if you want to, you can run these APIs if you want to." They know it, and they use it, and people are happy with it. And I think if you're a network engineer, you've got to spend the extra effort to try to, you know. You don't have to do anything complicated! >> It's not rocket science. You know, it's not like you got to go right C, I'm sorry? >> It's not rocket science. >> No, start with Ansible, you'll learn some Python, you'll learn some Django on top of that, and then keep running, right? Keep automating on top of that. >> All right, great stuff, Glenn. I know you've got a a tight deadline, appreciate you comin' on for this virtual fireside chat as part of the Infoblox Next Level Networking virtual event. What specifically can companies do to get what they need from a technology standpoint to secure the borderless enterprise? How do you see it playing out, now that you're on Infoblox side from SnapRoute, with what Infoblox has, which is a holistic portfolio approach, a holistic view, what are you guys offering customers, and how do they secure their borderless enterprise? Really start with DDI, right? I know DDI is something that is not specific to Infoblox, but if you look at what we're doing with DNS, DHCP and IPAM, it's really the foundational layer to start securing the rest of your network. We don't necessarily make it so you don't need the rest of your security stacks that are running on top, but we do optimize 'em and we make it so you can right-size 'em, and we really think that if you focus on getting that layer solid, and you really focus on the DNS security, you can apply a lot of lightweight, high impact features as early on in the packet forwarding process as possible. Right, if you think about, I'm a network engineer at heart, so I always think about the path of a packet from the start to the end, and DDI happens really early in the process, so if you give that right, the rest of your security infrastructure built on top of that is just going to work that much better. >> You're the Principal Product Manager at Infoblox, formerly with SnapRoute, how do you fit into this? What product are you managing? Can you give a little bit of background, kind of what you're working on? >> So, I'm an emerging technologies PM, so basically anything kind of new and cool that we look to add to our platform, that'll come out of myself and my group. >> And Kubernetes obviously is one of 'em. >> Well, Kubernetes is already there, so we're already doing stuff with Kubernetes inside Infoblox, like, our whole platform. If you buy BloxOne DDI and BloxOne Threat Defense today, it's all deployed using Kubernetes and Docker containers, and orchestration layers, and everything today. So, everything that we're building on my team, is all building on top of that well sold platform that's already been developed. >> There's definitely demand out there, you're startin' to see the big companies like VMware, very operational focused companies start acquiring cloud native and open source, kind of a new kind of section to them. Obviously it's a tell sign, the markers are all there in terms of the trends. What are people missing? What's real, what's vape or what's reality when you look at the landscape, and what does Infoblox bring to the table? >> So, I think what's important to know is that when you're lookin' at open source technologies, a lot of them have been hardened over many years, and there's new stuff coming out all the time, and there's definitely new uses for them. But what's kind of important is what you put on top, right? Everyone's got open source under the hood, or they've got technologies they've OEM'd under the hood, right? But the experience that you present to customers is really key, right? Because you can take any kind of open source project and wrap a, you know, very thing layer on top of it, and you can either, you know, trump up the open source software, and say is the open source software we use underneath, or you can downplay it and say hey, this open source software, you know, we don't really talk about what's under the hood and it just all works magically. We find that transparency is really helpful. You know, you let people know what's under the hood, and you contribute to it, and you show that you're involved in this community, and you use that as a leverage to kind of push forward. So, if you look at, you know, what we're doin' with some of the different projects within, you know, BloxOne DDI uses Kea, and we're part of IC that's part of the maintainers of that, like we're openly in this space, right? And I already mentioned CoreDNS before, right? So, you can either take open source, and use it, and pretend that you don't, or you can take open source and contribute to it and be a community member, and be an advocate, and usually when you're on that side of the equation, you end up in a better place with your customers, building, you know, building confidence in your customer base. >> That's great stuff, Glenn Sullivan, thanks for comin' on, I really appreciate it. I'll give you the last word. In a nutshell, if I have cloud native and open source, how do I secure my borderless enterprise? >> Think about it as close to where the source is as possible and scale things elastically so that you can do as much processing of the user experience as possible so that you aren't trying to, you know, funnel everything to a single place and apply some magical policies in a single centralized location, to where you have to process a lot of data across the board. If you think about it from a hybrid approach where you've got a little bit on-prem and you've got a little bit in the cloud, or in some combination that's right for your organization, the hybrid approach that really trumps the local survivability, and really, you know, keeps focusing on securing things as close to the user possible, or as close to the source as possible, then you're going to be in good shape. >> Glenn, great stuff. As always, a masterclass in networking. Appreciate the insights, thanks for comin' on this Infoblox Next Level Networking virtual event for theCUBE. I'm John Furrier, your host. Stay with us, and thanks for watching. (relaxing electronic music)

>> Narrator: From around the globe, it's the CUBE with coverage of SUSECON Digital, brought to you by SUSE. >> Hi, and welcome back. I'm Stu Miniman, and this is the CUBE's coverage of SUSECON Digital '20. Happy to welcome to the program Glenn Fitzgerald, he is the Chief Data Officer for Fujitsu Products in Europe, coming to me from across the pond. Ah, Glenn, great to see you, so thanks so much for joining us. >> Hi Stu, thanks, very glad to be here. >> All right, so, first of all, you know, Fujitsu Products Europe, Chief Data Officer, give us a little bit, your role and responsibility inside Fujitsu. >> Of course, the Fujitsu Products Europe is as the name suggests, that part of the Fujitsu Corporation that is dedicated to delivering our products out through the European geography. Fujitsu's product sets runs the full range of ITC components from... tablets to PCs to servers to big storage devices to networks, which is to integrated systems and the software stacks that sit on top of them. It's a wide profile, yeah. And my role has been to be the Chief Technology Officer for that organization for several years. Recently, we have as an organization adopted a new approach to take to the marketplace. And that has necessitated a slight change in my role to one that's more focused on enabling customers to get value out of their data and their data repositories and the correlation of that data to generate business value. A long description, Stu, but I think necessary. >> Yeah, no, super important, Glenn. One thing we've actually been saying for more than a year on the CUBE now, is when you have that discussion of digital transformation, one of the things that differentiates companies before they've gone digital and if they are truly to call themself, you know, have gone through this transformation, is they need to be data-driven, you know. Data needs to be how they're making their decisions. It was definitely a key theme that we heard from SUSE in the keynote. So maybe talk a little bit about how digital transformation and the partnership with SUSE fits into your world. >> Absolutely. So, in terms of the transformation of our business and the changes that we're trying to make to it, as a product organization, traditionally our relationships with our customers is kind of transactional. You know, we sell stuff and they buy stuff. And that relationship with customers is increasingly less viable. It's increasingly challenged. And I think it's challenged by the many things that have happened in the marketplace. It's a sign of a maturing industry. So, you have the Cloud and you have the ISVs who are providing compute power and storage capacity and network capability to our customers in a different way. They're delivering it on the click of a button on an internet browser. Now, that's suitable for some customers in some situations, it isn't suitable for others, but it's definitely here to stay and it's definitely going to change the way the marketplace works, and it has. So we've recognized inside our organization that we need to leverage some of the capabilities that exists inside the Fujitsu services organizations. Fujitsu is a large company. It also has very significant manage services capabilities, we deliver to huge customers all across Europe in terms of German government, British government, a lot of the big manufacturing industrials in Europe and a lot of the travel and insurance financial sectors. So leveraging some of that to take a more consultant-led approach to our marketplace, to our customers. So what we want to do with them is take them through the story of data transformation. And as you said, and I quite agree, the marketplace is becoming increasingly data-driven. You've only got to look at some of the well-known examples, and I'm not going to rehearse them again because everybody's heard them and knows who they are. But, every organization, however large or small, has to derive business advantage and discrimination from its data. Otherwise, they'll go the way of... I hate to say it, the High Street. You can see, in this recent pandemic, the COVID-19 stuff. I don't know what it's like in the US, but absolutely in the UK and in Europe, those retailers that have been able to provide a online presence have survived, and some of them have thrived. And those retailers that haven't been able to provide that presence aren't here anymore. And that's just, it's a current and rather violent example of this change of how to manage data and get the best value out of it. Now, in order to take that to our customers, the Fujitsu Product team needs to change some of its capabilities, it needs to introduce some of those consulting capabilities into its portfolio, which we do. It needs to work with some of our partners to deliver the capabilities either as an installation or a service and SUSE are one of our prime partners in that sense. Both in terms of delivering the computing platform standards, the SUSE Data Hub, I believe it's changed its name now. The SUSE Data Hub as I know it, is core to our offerings in this space. We have just launched in Germany, for example, a manufacturing optimization application which runs off the SUSE infrastructure and uses the SAP database and database management systems above that to deliver things like predictive maintenance and just-in-time parts delivery, and in-factory automated routine of little robots carrying the bits to the right place. And that's an example of something that was led by a consulting activity between Fujitsu and our customer, in this case, a large manufacturer. We recognized during that consultancy that some of the stuff we needed to do to deliver the solution, that would deliver the data-derived business benefit the customer needed, was not in our immediate scope. We got some of our larger partners, SUSE and SAP in this case, involved in it, and they outcome has been happy for everybody. There are some lessons in all that. The Fujitsu is still learning, if I'm frank, like how to price it. When you have consultant-led activities that are generating very great benefit for your client, it's not too great for the supplier to still be charging that just on consultant day-rate. That can lead you to not getting the value out of what you're providing to your client. So there's lessons there. There's lessons in how to interact between ourselves and some of our services partners and clients. And making sure that the optimum route to market is delivered. But that essentially, Stu, is the story. It's a change from a transactional approach to a consultant-led approach, and the generation of a large ecosystem of partners, like SUSE, like SAP, with the capabilities to build stuff with us and deliver business outcomes to clients, not a stack of tin. >> Excellent. So, Glenn, what about kind of emerging requirements, what you're hearing from your customers, you know, AI is an area that we heard quite a bit in the keynote from SUSE. Where do you see that fitting into the entire discussion? Obviously, the key, leverage of data, when you talk about AI. >> Absolutely, and to talk about that in two ways. The first way, the first issue with that is exactly the point you make, Stu, around data. So, AI, which is not artificial and not intelligent, it's just maths. It's statistical mathematics acting upon a large set of data. And if you have a large set of the right data, it can produce fantastic results for the client. But without that data, it is a relatively meaningless exercise. Once that data are assembled, we're beginning to see very significant results produced by the application of new networking, the machine learning. To technology-based, data-derived solutions for our clients, and there are many examples. I'll give you just one or two. We are working with a large financial institution in the city of London that wants to produce, basically, an artificial knowledge base that will perform the task of insurance underwriting. Don't ask me how that works, I'm not a financial guy. But apparently, insurance underwriting is a relatively mechanical task. You have a set of actuarial tables, you have a set of risks, you compare one with the other and produce a premium. We're working with them on that. There is a lot in the manufacturing space, and a surprising amount in healthcare. One of the most personally rewarding examples I've been involved with was the delivery of intelligent heart monitoring to clients with pacemakers. So, the pacemaker is made intelligent and it dumps to a Bluetooth-connected device in the patient's home, and that uploads to an AI-based knowledge system in the Cloud, and the Cloud says, "Sit down, you're going to have a heart attack." And the important element of that is that it says, "Sit down, you're going to have a heart attack" before you've had the heart attack, so you don't have one. A really fantastic example of human-centric interest. So, I think, as a separate subject, AI is largely of academic interest. But as a component of a data-driven solution for a customer, it's rapidly emerging as an important element in our armory, as indeed some other technologies. Like data annealing, and like data analytics, and to a slightly lesser extent at the moment, but I think it will come, blockchain. >> Excellent. So, Glenn, one of the things we always like talking about when we talk to a CDO is how are companies getting along with their data strategy? And I think back four or five years ago when we were first hearing about CDO as a role, it was, you know, the CDO, where do they fit compared to the CIO, what is the changing role of the CIO? So, like you were saying about some of these things, data often can be an afterthought or not necessarily connected, but just as we were saying, data needs to be a critical piece of how companies plan. You gave a great example of medical, obviously. You know, the data can really help transform lives in that environment. So, bring us inside what you're hearing from customers, how are they structuring, and are they really being, I guess, data-driven is one of the terms that I... >> That's a very good question. And the answer is yes to everything. So, one of the most difficult things to estimate, if you're going in to a customer with a client, especially if it's a client that you don't know very well, is exactly what their point of reference is going to be, what their comfort with some of these things is. As a result, we at Fujitsu invested a good deal of effort in going out to our client base and asking them the necessary questions to generate a thing we call the Data Maturity Model. Now the Data Maturity Model is not a new concept, it's a very solid and sound concept, it's been around for a long time. I think what we're trying to do is bring more rigor to that with a very large sample base of our customers. And the model is what you'd expect. There are five levels within it from at Level 1, what is data? To Level 5, where data is continually monitored, continually exploited, and continually developed as part of the business that the organization delivers. So there's a spectrum. In my experience, slightly controversially perhaps, the state of organizations on that Maturity Index varies with geography. And I think it's something to do with acceptance of risk, I think it's something to do with security concerns and liabilities. It's my observation that in the Anglophone world, in England and in the US certainly, there is a higher average awareness of the importance of data and the need to derive business benefit from it than there is, for example, in the Germanophone world, where there are more concerns around security and more regulations around security. They're quite constraining. And as a result, where organizations are a bit more traditional and a bit less aware of the value to be derived from the data. So, people, organizations hit everywhere on this scope, this plane of awareness of data and its potential. But it's definitely the case that the average is always going up. >> Yeah-. >> You only have to look at some of the public stocks, under the stuff in the public domain, to observe that that's happening all the time. >> Yeah, Glenn, I'm curious with the global pandemic happening, are you seeing any impact on that? I've heard some anecdotal data that you talk about some of the companies that are, you know, might not be interested in doing Cloud adoption because they're concerned about security, and all of a sudden realizing they need to take advantage of certain solutions. Or if you look at something like the tracking and tracing, obviously, people are rightfully concerned about personal information and having rights infringed upon. So, what will, in your opinion, are you seeing any early indications as to what this impact will be on how we think about data? >> I think there, again, there are two different dimensions. There's a Darwinian element in the attitudes towards commercial data. As we said right at the start of the conversation, in the current environment, you can see large retailers disappearing at a rate of knots because they haven't been data-aware and data-adopting. That lesson is not lost on other retailers. So, retailers are beginning to do things that in the past they wouldn't have done because of that sort of security concern, but also because of concerns about things like function and performance... and the sheer security that you have in owning your own stuff and therefore being certain of its ownership by you and your retention of the IPR involved. So there is definitely a slackening of that concern and a faster adoption of data exploitation technologies in the commercial sector. In the domestic sector, I think it's very mixed. And again, extremely geography different. In the UK, we have, if I could just talk about my own country for a second, we have this trial of a smartphone COVID-19 tracking app going on on the Isle of Wight. The British media is full to brimming with discussions of the implications of that upon individual liberty, of whether or not it's the nanny state gone mad, of whether or not we should all be not cooperating with it and catching the damn disease anyway because it's a step too far. In Germany, they just implemented it. And everybody went, "Right." (makes click sound) So there are all these different cultural adoptions of these things. But always and forever the trend is upwards. Similar debates around video surveillance technology. So you've got the pressure of security and protecting the public, against intrusion and violation of individual rights. And that debate has got to the stage now where there have been some pilots for threat detection based on video surveillance in the UK that have been stopped. Not so much in Germany. In the US, I don't know, but I guess, you're even more Libertarian than we Brits are, so it's probably more the other way. But with all of these discussions of differences, of culture and nation and area and geography, the trend is definitely upward. So, however the British people resolve that stress, you have to have a tracking app if you want to beat this disease. And that will happen in due course. >> Excellent. Well, Glenn, I'll give you the final takeaway, SUSECON '20, talk about the importance of the Fujitsu and SUSE partnership. >> I think it's a growing part of the base of an ecosystem that's required for all organizations like Fujitsu, like SUSE, that want to reach out and deliver solutions to our customers' business problems, which is after all, what we're here for and what we're all about. Because let's face it. In any sizable organization, the data landscape is unbelievably complicated. You have different formats of data, in RBDs, in unstructured file store, in whatever floats around employees' devices, on social media, for God's sake. Getting all of that out, understanding its relationship to infrastructure, understanding its relation through infrastructure, through application stacks, and service delivery, and then being able to transform that into new applications and new service paradigms that deliver the business benefits that our customers are looking for, is an incredibly complex act. And no one organization is going to be able to do it on its own. So I see the future as one of these growing ecosystems of people that work together some of the time, compete some of the time. Are in what we might call a frenemy relationship. Because we all have to work together to deliver what the customers need. Fujitsu is working with SUSE and our other partners at the forefront of that trying to build economic and commercial and technical partnerships. And I'm sure that will continue through SUSECON '20 and into the future. >> All right, well, Glenn Fitzgerald, thank you so much for joining us. Really appreciate the updates. >> I've enjoyed it. Thank you for having me. >> All right, much more coverage from SUSECON '20 Digital. I'm Stu Miniman and thank you for watching the CUBE. (upbeat music)

>>LA from Las Vegas. It's the cube hovering AWS reinvent 2019 brought to you by Amazon web services and they don't along with its ecosystem partners. >>Hey, welcome back to the cubes coverage of AWS 19 re-invent Los Vegas. Where else would it be? Why? Because there are about 65,000 people here with Stu Miniman and myself, Lisa Martin and we're pleased to welcome the guests from SAP, Germany, joining us as Glen Gonzalez, the chief technology officer in Germany. Glenn, welcome to the cube. Thank you. Nice place to be. Isn't it nice with XO? So this is day three of all the action. There is not a lull in the attendance of the expo halls. So much going on. So much news, but give us a little bit of an insight. SAP is a customer of AWS. AWS is a customer of SAP. Talk to us about all that you guys do together. >>Yeah, that's, that's interesting about our partnership cause it has so many dimensions and the firsthand, actually SAP is a big customer of AWS. We have huge workloads running on AWS or even our software as a service. Applications like conquer. Maybe the coolest travel a software you can have. For me as a traveler, I use it every day. And on the other hand it's like AWS is a big customer of SAP using conqueror themselves. And you know, I don't know, maybe a lot of people around us, they will know what I'm talking about. And then adding to this we also competitors, which is great because competition drives innovation. Everybody knows this. So, um, and that brings me actually to maybe the last part is like innovation is that maybe the center of our partnership is that we together can do so much more than each of us could do. >>And if we bring these two parts together, then then it's real value for the customers. And that's maybe the most exciting part about this. Clint, it's interesting. SAP Sapphire was actually the second show we ever did as the cube way back in 2010 before AWS reinvent existed. But even back then we started talking about transformation. You know, I think of SAP and SAP is the global ERP company. You started talking about all the different pieces. How should we be thinking about SAP in today's modern transformed cloud environment? Well that's, that's, that's a topic I have every week cause a lot of people perceive SAP as the ERP company and it's, it's so much more due to the changes that are happening around the world now. We stand for our business processes end to end, safe and secure. And business can run only if you have a software that can do this. But these processes are changing, you know, they're expanding and they are technically changing. For example, IOT brings actually that not a human being starts the process. It's a, it's a, it's a sensor but it's still an end to end process or technologies like blockchain and machine learning are changing the process itself. So some people think machine learning is only fancy of its autonomous driving, but put it into a process and it gets autonomous and that's a real value for customers. You can even calculate a business. So it's so much more than ERP today. >>We're at a Sapphire last year, so summer of 2018. One of the things that was interesting was a lot of messaging around ERP. You can talk to, of course here we are at AWS, lots of people know. Alexa, talk to us about some of the innovations and the emerging technologies that SAP is bringing into your flagship products and your other technologies that are really helping to transform way beyond ERP. >>Yeah, that's, that's, that's interesting cause we're doing a lot of this innovation together with AWS. Um, many of our biggest strategic customers are already running their workloads on AWS and, and so many more. I evaluating to do this. It's really exciting times. And as I mentioned earlier, new technologies kick in. So our, um, business technology platform based on SAP cloud platform is that by the customer's need, um, this connection from these new technologies into the businesses and we are developing so many softwares together now, um, like data intelligence or data warehouse cloud, um, and even the SAP custodian as we are now brought out last, uh, two months ago on our ticket. Yeah. So Glenn, uh, you know, SAP has always had a great few point into the productivity of the worker. Um, and there's so many technologies you brought up the autonomous bees. So it brought to mind one of the hardest areas in tech beyond just cloud is RPA, robotic process automation. >>Uh, you know, help us bring inside, you know, SAP is positioning there. Uh, and you know, even broader about just how workforce can be more efficient, not just get cool new tools, guide some, maybe one of the main topics of the ITD ciders around the world is how can I make things more simple? How can I reduce the complexity of my it? And it always starts at the user. Uh, it should at least not always, but it should. And if you can make the work of a user a lot, a lot more simple. And that's what these technologies bring in. Uh, automize or, or posh, partially automized processes. Um, the, the, the user of the software can do different things or you can only confront them with the difficult stuff on. The rest can be done kind by the system. And that's why these things are really important and we may main topic and you can put this new technology in with not such a big effort as others. Maybe >>the end user more productive is critical, right? Cause we're all end users at the end of the day and sometimes it's very challenging to get worked on if you have so many processes, there's so many different applications that you have to work with but to get the end user that productive to really streamline the enterprise software space. A lot of things we're >>hearing about, and Andy Jassy talked about this in his keynote Tuesdays organizations to truly transform a business all the way down to that end user level, you have to start at that senior executive level as the CTO of SAP in Germany, are you starting to see conversations shift up from that more end user space to that C-suite? Is is enterprise transformation really at that level and in your experience? Definitely. Definitely. It's a big topic but you have to see this. There are two to two versions of this. The one is to talk about it. And the other one is the execution on it. So we see a lot of companies are talking about unstop the execution. And it's a real transformational part and it's really hard for many companies because the change is drastic. And what we really see, it only works top down. So if the C level is not in it basically will not happen. And that's, that's something we've really learned within the last years. >>Yeah. Glenn, I always want to get to talk to a CTO. The changing role of technology in business today. Uh, you know, you used to be able to say there are certain industries, well, they might use of technology, but they're not technology companies. Now, you know, the, the, the meme is everyone is a software company and everyone's becoming technology. So you're gonna bring us inside your viewpoint as to, as a CTO about how, you know, how important, you know, this moment in time is, uh, in the technology industry. Huh. >>I think it's, it's, it's master key for, for many companies and even the role of the CTO changes from, for example, my role, I'm really customer centric. I spent many spend time with many customers a week. So I'm not in the machine room fixing things. I'm listening to customers because if you don't understand what they actually have for expectations, you will never fit. They're actually the expectation. So even even putting one on top, some of our customers need help to understand the expectations of their customers and that's the part of this digital transformation and these new businesses coming off. And so it's a lot more exciting than maybe a few years ago where we only talked about tech. I spent most of the time about how to use it and then afterwards how the tech has to be implemented to make this possible. What are your conversations with respect to people on that cultural change? >>As soon as point is, so many companies today have to be absolutely fueled by technology to be competitive because there are startups, right? You know, behind a lot of legacy businesses ready to cannibalize the business. But that cultural piece, it's really difficult. Talk to me about some of the conversations that you have with customers to help them maybe reset expectations but also get them understanding that that cultural transformation is critical to the digital transformation. That's maybe the unfair part. We come in and want to talk about technology and use it and then they, they start about change and not talking about change, their mindset change. It's the critical thing you can, you can have the best ideas. You can have the best technology behind this if you'll own organization but not go with this. You will not stop or you will not start. Sorry. So that's why I just earlier said, if it doesn't work top down, it will never work. >>If if the designer or let's say at the boss, if he's not in, if he doesn't understand the necessity to change this, it will not happen. And the changes is quite heavily. It's not agile. It's a lot more, it's about really thinking a different way or even understanding what the internet is doing to everybody. Some don't even understand that and it's, it's sometimes it's really surreal. You know, you're setting down, someone's telling you, Oh you know, my daughter uses a smartphone all day. I under don't understand her. And I said no. Then start understanding it cause that's how the world is turning out the moment. Right. And there are five different generations that are in workforce today. So businesses, SAP, your partners, your competitors, all have to cater to your point to a really broad level of technology understanding. Yeah, that's can be a big barrier. >>It is a barrier. But don't make the mistake to only get in the millennials and throw the old ones out because that's the biggest mistake you can do. Cause it's, it's about the mixture. It's about diversity in the team. I mean it's even if you can even ask scientists. Yeah. A lot of stuff you can read about this, but if you want to really make it happen, you have to live it. And this is where SAP, we had talked about it upfront that we have actually five generations within one company. And it's so important because the business process had the beginning. There's a reason why we did it this way. And if the new people don't understand this, they may make big mistakes. So that's the magic, bringing them together and making new kinds of teams. >>Yeah. Well Glen, I, I loved a couple minutes to go. You're talking about the requirements that top down leadership to be able to help and that really echoes what Andy Jassy talked about on the main stage. I'm wondering if you could give us a little bit of the global viewpoint, especially being from Europe here because you know very much we talk about that move from the bottoms up to the top down and it coming from both ways here. Is it very similar across the globe? Is there maturity or changes in some of the workforce that might be a little bit different in some geos versus others that you're working with? >>Without big differences, especially in Germany, which is a very mature market. Um, there's a lot of, actually there is a lot more talking about data security and privacy in Europe than we see in other regions of the world. For example, that doesn't matter. That doesn't say that. It doesn't matter that, but it's different talk. So, or even cloud. Uh, for some people it's cloud is like. I don't know. I can't really grab it. So an interesting is a different understanding of cloud of people. So it's, it's, it's regionally totally different how to go in and it's also a difference if you're talking to a big company, which is globally on the, on the road or others that are starting to get global for them, it's also change. Yeah. In other markets it's not a problem to do it that way, but in your own markets, a lot of, you know, say as like, Oh, let's wait. >>We have to discuss this first and that's maybe the wrong the wrong version. Yeah. As we look at how cloud in and of itself as an operating model, but also the technologies that define it, how they've evolved and changed. One of the things too that Andy Jassy talked about with our own John furrier is that, you know, a lot of the businesses that are going to be successful tomorrow are either going to be born in the cloud companies or they don't even exist yet. What are some of the things that you're seeing in the existing enterprise, not just in Germany, but globally? Are you seeing any industries in particular that you think are really right to become reborn in the cloud? For example, web far, especially in Germany where we have a lot of companies building machines, hardware, it's, it's more difficult to get this vision of being a digital company. >>You mentioned it earlier. Companies are becoming a software company, although they're building machines and the machine is only there to enable the service. This is a big change for them. It's of course a lot more complicated to to understand how these new technologies can help them on for them. They are actually in the beginning of understanding, but for others that come from a service side, for them, it's a lot easier for them to understand what these technologies can bring them and agility and flexibility and scalability. It opens totally new doors, but there's still a lot of education you have to do for them to understand that it's really a really the right door to go through and that's part of my job extending these things. Yeah. Glenn would love you. You've been, I'm sure talking to a lot of customers this week. Give us your final takeaways from AWS. >>Re invent 2019 wow. I'm a little bit overwhelmed by the input you can get here. I really tried to go to all sessions. I failed. Maybe next time there's only 2,500 of them figured out. Cloning highly shy manipulations is one of my CTO. Let's maybe I work on it for next time. We'll talk after this maybe next year so I need to be invited again and we can talk about that now. It's, it's a huge input we have here and it's a different stage. If I talk to customers it's a different talk cause we have more input from many sides and they are also open to talk about things that they may not be open to when they're at home cause she are things that there's so much positive input and so diverse input that it really helps to start different conversations. Well 2,500 sessions. That cloning thing will really help out. Not only with that, but also can you imagine how much better ERP would get if we had clones? So you'll have to come back cause we have to figure this out. I bet on that. All right, Glen, thank you for joining steward again for your time. All right, first two minute, man. I'm Lisa Martin. You're watching the cube and stick around because later today, Andy Jassy stops by. Thanks for watching.

>> from New York City. It's Theo Cube covering new relic Future Stack 2019. Brought to you by new relic. >> Welcome back on stupid a minute. This is the cubes coverage here of future stack 2019 new relics. 70 year they're doing the show is the U. S. Show. They actually bring these few locations around the globe, right next door to Grand Central Station and about 600 in attendance. And been really excited to kick off with the number of the users here at the show and happened. Welcome program. First time guests. Another cut. Who is the technical fellow in chief? Architect with Genesis. You been at the event a number of times. You're speaking at the event today, but let's start with Genesis. Customer experience is something that I think a lot of people been hearing about on. That is the product. The Genesis has tell us a little bit about the company itself. Sure. >> Yeah. So, Genesis, uh, brain that Maybe not. Everybody knows, but they certainly transitive Lee know us. We're a customer experience platform. We like to say that we're a technology company, but we power. The experience is about 25 billion customer experiences every year for 11,000 plus customers. About 1000 different countries around the world s So we are all about having a connection between brands and their customers, and we enable that >> s o not only some of the cloud shows. I was an enterprise connect earlier this year and definitely was, you know, something I heard a lot about see Exit really important Not only how customers interact with the brand, but internally how you know we treat the employees and that interaction is something that that is raised up. People are kind of important inside, but we're going to talk too much about the people here. We're gonna talk about the technology as the chief architect of this gives a little bit about what you have your arms around in a responsible for >> sure s o for for me, of the project. Your cloud was the name for for a long time, Genesis Cloud as of yesterday. So we are a public cloud offering as a CX platform and I say platform because we made the transition from just being a product to a platform. In my opinion last year, more than half of our FBI work is actually code we didn't right? So I think people using you as a programmable thing is when you become a platform. So I'm responsible for things like cloud architecture for understanding. Let's say industry trends. What technologies? We're gonna use a lot of eight of us service designed technical vetting, general cat hurting that sort of thing, >> Right? So you said your public cloud, but you said it sits on top of AWS. But it's a platform that your customers can then build on top. >> That's right. That's right. So we like to think of ourselves as C X. As a service. We've had some that use us still like a product all shrink wrapped, ready to go, others that want to extend us either writing their own. You guys writing their own back ends their own integration points. We make all of that possible. >> All right, so I'm expecting you have a bit of an opinion when it comes to that platform, As Lou said with a capital P A, and it's gotta be programmable, it's gonna be open. Tell us what your thoughts about new relic kind of entering, you know, new relic one being they said today the first, and only if their claim of observe ability platform s o give us your thoughts around. >> Absolutely. Yeah. S O. I like to think that we have been using the relic as a platform for awhile, whether they knew it or wanted it or not way have a fairly rigorous continuous delivery pipeline. And we are very big believers in infrastructure is code and develops principles. So for us, the engineering teams don't just own the code that they write, but they own the infrastructure definitions. They even own alert definitions, dashboard configurations. And we push that information directly into the relic as our deployments happen. Live hundreds of times a week around the globe. >> All right, so how do these modern architecture's enable you to run a team? >> I can't imagine trying to manage 350 plus Micro service is in production, which is roughly what we have today over 1000 Lambda Functions way can't improve what we don't measure. Everyone likes to say that, but it's true. I have a little bit of an a p m background from from places past. So I was a firm believer that you need to invest early and observe ability and metrics. So we've been a day one kind of new relic subscriber in the cloud space. Everything from understanding how the infrastructure parts work now to serve earless. It's all been about moving up the value stack like commodity metrics of servers is great and still needed. But transactional information and now trace information is absolutely essential. >> Okay, in the Kino this morning, they walk through their metrics events, logs and traces. Where are you with, you know, these various sources of data and harnessing the value of that. >> So I would say, with fairly early towards the tracing part before new relic headed as a managed thing they had cross at tracing. I'm sure you're familiar with that sort of the prior incarnation of distributed tracing on. We leverage that pretty pretty heavily, but it obviously doesn't have quite the same utility a cz what the new open tracing standards provide s so we do things like having correlation i d. S. That let us tag and follow things around. Now we just get to off load that from our team's being as responsible for it. And now the platform gives it to us. >> Yeah. Glen is open source important to your organization? >> Absolutely. We try Thio, give back some ourselves. In fact, one of the one of the nerd lets the nerd packs that Lou mentioned on stage was one that our team wrote s Oh, yeah, way believe not only that, we need a p i's and programmatic access to do our jobs, but we like toe enable and help other people with the same >> Eric Spence got a shout out on the Maquis note was that the thing that you were talking about it is >> I expect to see us probably released two or three more nerd packs before the end of the year Way, way are eager to do that rather than just investing in all of our own. You I that we had glass over the top of the relic. Now we actually just get to put those components deeper inside of new relic proper. >> Okay, eyes there. Anything else from the announcements this morning that you're looking forward to leveraging? >> So I think there's there's definite changes in the A p M space. You'll hear a little bit more, probably in the deep dives one of the talks I'm having later with not even she will be talking about. Some of those things were definitely interested in that. Open telemetry has some value. Greater Genesis definitely has investments around things like Prometheus and other sorts of monitoring. So if I'm not talking about just the public cloud side of it and other aspects there definitely things we can leverage. >> All right, Glenn gives us share a little bit, if you can. About what? What you're talking about here at the show. So one of >> the big mitts is entity centric. Observe, ability. The idea again that we're not just looking at servers and static infrastructure. We're looking at things that are very ephemeral. We have a lot of dynamics scale on our platform on. We need ways to actually frame what we're looking at at the level of Micro Service's but often level like business applications. So even when we're creating some of these extension points like the one you just mentioned way framed that within the context of a service that does a particular vertical slice on dhe, that's that's kind of where we like to invest. So we like to live. >> Okay, um, you know what's what's on your road map of? You know where you're going with your journey and is there anything that you're looking for? Beyond what was announced today from new relic ER from the ecosystem at large, >> I think there's lots of refinements of what was announced today that will help us theeighty I ops side, I think not just for noise reduction, but also for like, early early signal detection. It's a pretty fascinating space. Will likely invest some of our own dollars in times trying to help that along. Definitely Ah, lot of distributed tracing and Maur investment. There is a big piece for us. I think the A PM space. There are areas that I'd like to see a peon vendors invest in that goes beyond what now, I guess, is becoming more, more traditional, like transaction information. We have a lot of a i machine learning ourselves, and I think monitoring those types of workloads is going to be very different. As big of a paradigm shift as it was to go from classic monitoring Transactional. I think we're about to see that happen again in the >> industry. Yeah. What can you share some of the kind of the A I journey that you're going through a genesis where you are, You know what the maturity level is of solutions that you're using and >> sure way have a fairly robust aye aye team on products range from in the W m space back to the people that you mentioned at the first part of the talk way have workforce optimization, workforce management, and we brought a I algorithms to that a lot of time. Siri's forecasting that used certain machine learning techniques. We've invested a fair amount in until you and Opie any are so everything from sentiment detection to live transcription that we built in house to our own body engines that d'oh the new dialogue management. So we have a fairly robust bit there and some on the management side on the operational back in that we used to try to improve our quality of service on reduced any sort of incidents on the platform. >> All right, it's your third year. Third time coming to this show was what brings you back? What you excited about? I kind of dig in and take away from the event this year. >> I think the relics always been a partner in my stance, not just a vendor we believe so deeply in the observe ability message that one I want to be part of shaping that narrative. Eso coming to future sack actually talking to a lot of other executives, seeing where they're going and kind of sharing that use case, but also trying to be a little bit of a lighthouse. Thio, the new relic team as well, is what brings me back every year. >> Observe ability is something that it hurt. A number of startups talking about in the last couple of years were, in your opinion, does new Rolex it compared to the marketplace overall, obviously, they just kind of announced the observe ability, you know, full suite with new relic one. But you know what your viewpoint is? Toe have their wealth, their position? >> Where did I think their position? I think they are best of breed for what we're currently seeing. Owners of ability. There are other things, I think, where we could cobble together bits from multiple vendors but frankly, having application performance monitoring along with infrastructure, along with data being cold from the cloud platforms that we're all in, like, eight of us. They've got a unique place. I think the power of their agent technology has proven itself over time as well. My guidance to most other other companies that I speak with about this subject is don't just trust that it's all magic invest on. And I think they make themselves easy to invest in on. I think this platform play is a good one for them. >> All right. Well, another cut. Thank you so much for joining us. Sharing your journey, What we're doing in the best of luck on your presentation today. Thank you, sir. All right. Be back with lots more coverage here from a new relic. Future stack 2019. I'm still Minutemen. And thank you for watching the Cube.

(upbeat jazz music) >> Narrator: From our studios in the heart of Silicon Valley, Palo Alto, California, This is a Cube Conversation. >> Everyone welcome to this Cube Conversation here in Palo Alto, California. I'm John Furrier host of the Cube, here in the Cube Studios. We have Dom Wilde the CEO of SnapRoute, and Glenn Sullivan co-founder of SnapRoute hot startup. You guy are out there. Great to see you again, thanks of coming on. >> Good to see you. >> Appreciate it. >> Thanks. >> Your famous you got done at Apple, we talked about last time. You guys were in buildup mode, bringing your product to market. What is the update? You guys are now out there with traction. Dom give us the update. What's going on with the company? Quick update. >> Yeah, so if you remember we've built the sort of new generation of networking, targeted at the next generation of cloud around distributed compute networking. We have built Cloud Native microservices architecture from the ground up to reinvent networking. We now have the product out. We released the product back at the end of February of this year, 2019. So we're out with our initial POCs, we've got a couple of initial deals already done. And a couple customers of record and we deployed up and running with a lot of interest coming in. I think it's kind of one of the topics we want to talk about here is where is the interest coming from and where is this sort of new build out of networking, new build out of cloud happening. >> Yeah I want to get the detail on that traction but real quick what is the main motivator for some of these interest points? Obviously you got traction. What is the main traction points? >> So a couple things, number one, people need to be able to deploy apps faster. The network has always traditionally got in the way. It's been a inhibitor to the speed of business. So, number one, we enable people to deploy applications much faster because we're sort of integrating networking with the rest of the infrastructure operational model. We're also solving some of the problems around, or in fact, all of the problems around how do you keep your network compliant and security patched. And make it easier for operations teams to do those things and get security updates done really really quickly. So there's a whole bunch of operational problems that we're solving and then we're also looking at some of the issues around how do we have both a technology revolution in networking but also a economic revolution. Networking is just too expensive and always has been. So we've got quite a works of revolutionary model there in terms of bringing the cost of networking down significantly. >> Glenn, as the co-founder, as the baby starts to get out there and grow up, what's your perspective? Are you happy with things right now or how are things going on your end? >> Absolutely, the thing that I'm proudest of is the innovation that the team has been able to drive based on having folks that are real experts in Kubernetes, DevOps, and networking, all sitting in one room solving this problem of how you manage a distributed cloud using tool sets that are Cloud Native. That's really what I'm proudest of is the technology that we've been able to build and demonstrate to folks. Because nobody else can really do what we're doing with this mix of DevOps and Kubernetes, and Cloud Native engineering. Like general network protocol and systems people. >> You know it's always fun to interview the founders, and being an entrepreneur myself, sometimes where you get is not always where you thought you'd end up. But you guys always had a good line of sight on this Cloud Native shift in the modern infrastructure. >> Glenn: Right. >> You did work at Apple we talked about it in our last conversation. Really with obviously leading the win, they had pressure from the marketplace selling trillion dollar valuation company. But that was a early indicator. You guys had clear line of sight on this new modern architecture, kind of the cloud 2.0 we were talking about before we came on camera. This is now developing, right? So you guys are now in the market, you're riding that wave. It's a good wave to be on because certainly app developers are talking about microservices, or you talking about Kubernetes, talking about service meshes, stateful data. All these things are now part of the conversation but it's not siloed organizations doing it. So I want to dig into this topic of what is cloud 2.0. How do you guys define this cloud 2.0 and what is cloud 1.0? And then lets talk about cloud 2.0. >> Yeah, so cloud 1.0, huge success. The growth of the hyperscale vendors. You've got the success of Amazon, or Microsoft, Azure, and all of these guys. And that was all about the hyper-centralization of data, bringing all the desperate data centers that enterprises used to run and all that infrastructure into relatively a few locations. A few geographic locations and hyper-centralizing everything to support SaaS applications. Massively successful because really what cloud 1.0 did was it made infrastructure invisible. You could be an application developer and you didn't have to manage or understand infrastructure, you could just go and deploy your applications. So, the rise of SaaS with cloud 1.0. Cloud 2.0 is actually a evolution in our mind. It's not an alternative, it's actually an evolution that compliments what those vendors did with cloud 1.0. But it's actually... It's actually distributing data. So we pulled everything to central and now what we're seeing is that the applications themselves are developing such that we have new use cases. Things like enhanced reality and retail. We have massive sensor networks that are generating enormous amounts of data. We have self-driving cars where, you know, that need rapid response for safety things. And so what happens is you have to put compute closer to the devices that are generating that data. So you have to geographically now disperse and have edge compute and obviously the network that goes with that to support that. And you have to push that out into thousands of locations geographically. And so cloud 2.0 is this move of we've got this whole new class of cloud service providers and some regional telcos and things who are reinventing themselves, and saying, "Hey we can actually provide "the colos, we can provide the smaller locations "to host these edge compute capabilities." But what that creates is a huge networking problem. Distributed networking in massively distributed cases is a really big problem. What it does is it amplifies all of the problems that we coped with in networking for many years. I mean, Glenn, you can talk about this right? When you were at Apple one of the first realtime apps was Siri. >> Yeah, and I know it. Lets get back to the huge networking problem but I want to stay on the thread of cloud 2.0. Glenn, you were talking about that before we came on camera. He referenced that you worked for a time at Apple. Kind of a peak into the future around what cloud 2.0 was. Can you elaborate on this notion of realtime, latency, as an extension to the success of cloud 1.0? >> Right, so we saw this when we were deploying Siri. Siri was originally just a centralized application, just like every other centralized application. You know, iTunes. You buy a song, it doesn't really have to have that much data about you when you're buying that song. You go and you download it via the CDN and it gets it to you very quickly, and you're happy and everything's great. But Siri kind of changed that because now it has to know my voice, it has to know what questions I ask, it has to know things about me that are very personal. And it's also very latency sensitive, right? The quicker that it gets me a response the more likely I am to use it, the more data it gets about me the better the answers get. Everything about it drives that the data has to be close to the edge. So that means the network has to be a lot bigger than it was before. >> And this changes the architectural view. So just to summarize what you said is, iTunes needs to know a lot about the songs that it needs to deliver to. >> Glenn: Right. >> The network delivers it, okay easy. >> Glenn: Right. >> If you're clicking. But with the voice piece that kind of changed the paradigm a little bit because it had to be optimized and peaked for realtime, low latency, accuracy. Different problem set, than say, the iTunes. >> Glenn: Exactly. >> So they've networked together. >> Language specific, right? So, where is the user, what language are they speaking, how much data do we have to have for that language? It's all very very specific to the user. >> So cloud 2.0 is if I can piece this together is cloud 1.0 we get it, Amazon showcased there. It's kind of data, it's a data problem too. It's like AI, you seen the growth of AI validate that. It's about data personalization, Siri is a great example. Edge where you have data (chuckles) that needs to integrate into another application. So if cloud 1.0 is about making the infrastructure invisible, what is cloud 2.0 about? What's the main value proposition? >> To me it's about extracting the value from the data and personalizing it. It's about being able to provide more realtime services and applications while maintaining that infrastructure invisibility paradigm. That is still the big value of any cloud, any public cloud offering, is that I don't want to own the infrastructure, I don't want to know about it, I want to be able to use it and deploy applications. But it's the types of applications now and it's the value that the applications are delivering has changed. It's not just a standard SaaS application like Workday for instance, that is still a very static application-- >> John: It's a monolithic application, yeah. >> These are realtime apps, they're operating realtime. If you take an autonomous car, right? If I'm about to crash my car and the sensors are all going off, and it needs to brake and it needs to send information back and get a response. I want all that to happen in realtime, I don't want to sort of like have-- >> In any extraction layer of any layer of innovation 1.0, 2.0, as you're implying advancement. It's still an application developer opportunity, Glenn, right? >> Absolutely. >> Because at the end of the day the user expectations changed because of the experience that they're getting-- >> Yeah and it only gets worse right? Because the more network that I have the more distributed the network is, the harder it is to manage it. So if you don't take that network OS, the really really boring, not very exciting thing, and treat it the same way you always have. And try to take what you learned in the data center and apply to the edge, you lose the ability to really take advantage of all the things that we've learned from the Cloud Native era a from the public cloud 1.0, right? I mean just look at containers for instance, containers have taken over. But you still see this situation where most of the applications that are infrastructure based aren't actually containerized themselves. So how can they build upon what we've learned from pubic cloud 1.0 and take it to that next level, unless you start replacing the parts of the infrastructure with things that are containerized. >> This just is a side note, just going through my head right now. It's going to be a huge conflict between who leads the innovation in the future. >> Glenn: Absolutely. >> On premises or cloud. And that's going to be an interesting dynamic because you could argue that containerization and networking is a trend in mixed tense to be Cloud Native but now you got it on premises. It's going to be a dynamic we're going to have to watch. But you mentioned, Dom, about this huge networking problem that evolves out of cloud 2.0. >> Dom: Absolutely. >> What is that networking problem? And what specifically is a directionally correct solution for that problem? >> So I think the biggest problem is an operational one. In the cloud 1.0 era and even prior to that when we were in a hosted enterprise data centers, we've always built data centers and the applications running with them, with the assumption that there are physically expert resources there. That if something goes wrong, they can hands-on do something about it. With cloud 2.0 because it's so distributed, you can't have people everywhere. And one of the challenges that has always existed with networking technology and architecture is it is a very static thing. We set it, we forge it, we walk away, and try not to touch it again because it's pretty brittle. 'Cause we know that if we do touch it, it probably breaks and something goes wrong. And we see today a ton of outages, we were talking about a survey the other day that says the second biggest cause of outages in the cloud age is still the network. It's an operational problem whereby I want to be able to go and now touch these thousands of devices for... Usually I'm fixing a bug or I want to add a feature but more and more it's about security. It's more about security compliance, and I want to make sure that all my security updates are done. With a traditional network operating system, we call it The Monolith, all of the features are in big blob. You can turn them off but you can't remove them. So it's a big blob and all of those features are interdependent. When you have to do a security patch in a traditional model, what happens is that you actually are going to replace the blob. And so you're going to remove that and put a new blob in place. It's a rip and replace. >> And that's a hard enough operational problem all on it's own because when you do that you sort of down things and up things. So consequently-- >> And anyone who's done any location shifting on hardware knows it's a multi-day/week operation. >> It is but, ya know, and what people do is they overbuild the network, so they have two of everything. So it's when they down one, the other one stays up. When you're in thousands of geographic locations, that's really expensive to have two of everything. >> So the problem statement is essentially how do you have a functional robust network that can handle the kind of apps and IOT. Is that-- >> Yeah it is absolutely but as I said it's important to understand that you have this Monolith that is getting in the way of this robust network. What we've done is we've said, 'We'll apply Cloud Native technology in thinking.' Containerize the actual network operating system itself, not just the protocols, but the actually infrastructure services to the operating system. So if you have to security patch something or you have to fix something, you can replace an individual container and you don't touch anything else. So you maintain a known state for your network that devices is probably going to be way more reliable, and you don't have to interrupt any kind of service. So rather than downing and uping the thing you're just replacing a container. >> You guys built a service on top of the networks to make it manageable, make it more functional, is that-- >> We actually didn't build it. This is the beautiful part. If we built it then I would just be another network vendor that says, "Hey trust my propietary not-open solution. "I can do it better than everyone else." That would be what traditional vendors did with stuff like ISSU and things like that. We've actually just used Kubernetes to do that. So you've already trust Kubernetes, it came out of Google, everybody's adding to it, it's the best community project ever for distributed systems. So you don't have to trust that we've built the solution, you just trust in Kubernetes. So what we've done is we made the network native to that and then used that paradigm to do these updates and keep everything current. >> And the reason why you're getting traction is you're attractive to a network environment because you're not there to sell them more networking (laughs). >> Right. >> You're there to give them more network capability with Kubernetes. >> Yeah, well I mean-- Yeah we're attractive to a business for two reasons. We're attractive to the business because we enable you to move your business faster. You can deploy applications faster, more reliably, you can keep them up and running. So from a business perspective, we've taken away the pain of the network interrupting the business. From an operations perspective, from an IT operations network operations perspective, what we've done is we've made the network manageable. We've now, as you said, we've taken this paradigm and said what would've taken months of pretesting, and planning, and troubleshooting at two o'clock in the morning has now become a matter of seconds in order to replace a container. And has eased the burden operationally. And now those operational teams can do worthwhile work that is more meaningful than just testing a bunch of vendor fixes. >> Yeah, even though cloud 1.0 had networking in their computed storage, I think cloud 1.0 data would be about computing storage. cloud 2.0 is really about the network and all the data that's going around to help the app developers scale up their capability. >> Dom: Yeah, that's a great way to think about it. >> I was talking about the use cases. I think the next track that I'd love to dig in with you guys on is as you guys are pioneering this new modern approach, some of the use cases that you touch are probably also pretty modern. What specific use cases are you guys getting into or your customers are talking about. What are some of these cloud 2.0 use cases that you're seeing? >> Yeah, so one we already touched on was this sort of horizontally and generally was the security one. I mean security is everybody's business today. And it's a very very difficult networking problem, ya know, keeping things compliant. If you take for instance, recently Cisco announced that there was faulty vulnerabilities in their mainstream Nexus products. And that's not a terrible thing, it's normal course of business. And they put out the patches and the fixes and said, "Hey, here it is." But now when you think about the burden on any IT team. That comes out of the blue, they hadn't planned for it. Now they have to take the time to take a step back and what they have to do is say, well I've got this new code. I don't know what else was fixed or changed in there. So I now have to retest everything and retest all of my use cases, and I have to spend considerable time to do that to understand what else has changed. And then I have to have a plan to go out and deploy this. That's a hard enough problem in a centralized data center. Doing that across hundreds, if not thousands of geographically dispersed sights is a nightmare. But it's just, ya know, the new world we live in, this is going to happen more and more and more. And so being able to change that operational model to say actually this is trivial. And actually what you should be doing is doing these updates everyday to keep yourself compliant. >> Do the use cases Glenn, have certain characteristics? I mean, we're talking about latency and bandwidth that's a traditional networking kind of philosophy. Is there certain characteristics that these new use cases have? Is it latency and bandwidth, is there anything else? >> No it's mostly about bringing properties like CI/CD to networking, right? So the biggest thing we're seeing now is as people start to investigate disaggregated networking and new ways of doing things. They're not getting this free pass that they used to get for the network because the network isn't just an appliance anymore. When you had something that was from one of the three vendors you'd say, "Okay, that thing runs some version of Linux on it. "I don't know what it is. "Maybe it runs free SD in Juniper's case. "I don't understand what kernel it is, "I don't care just keep that thing up to date." But now it's like, "Oh I'm starting to "add more services to my network devices." Say in the remote sites I want to kickstart some servers with these network devices I install first, well that means that I have to start treating this thing like it's another server in my environment for my provisioning. That means that everything on that box has to be compliant just like it is in everything else. Lets not even get into personal credit card information, personal identifying information. Everything is becoming more and more heightened from a non-exemplary status. >> It's a surface area device, I mean it's part of the surface area. >> And if it's not inside a data center than it's even worse because you can't guarantee the physical security of that device as much as you could if it was inside a regular data center. >> So this is a new dynamic that's going on with the advent of security, regulatory issues, and also obviously the parameter being dismantled because of cloud. >> Glenn: Absolutely. >> Yeah, you also got specific use cases. There are multiple verticals and industries that are having these challenges. Retail is a good example, point-of-sale. Anywhere where you have the sort of a branch problem or mentality where you're running sophisticated applications, and by the way, people think of point-of-sale is not terribly sophisticated. It's incredibly sophisticated these days. Incredibly sophisticated. And there are thousands of these devices, hundreds of stores, thousands of devices, similar with healthcare. You know, again, distributed hospitals, medical centers, doctor's offices, etcetera. You have all running private mission critical data. I think one of the ones that we see coming is this kind of autonomous car thing. As we get IOT sensor networks, large amounts of data being aggregated from those. So there's lots of different use cases. We add on a lot of interest. And to be quite frankly, the challenge for us as a startup is keeping focused on just a few things today. But the number of things we're being asked to look at is just enormous. >> Well those tailwinds for you guys in terms of momentum, you have this cloud 2.0 trend. Which we talked about. But hybrid cloud and multi-cloud is essentially distributed cloud on edge? If you think about it. >> Yeah, yeah. >> And that's what most companies are going to do, they're going to keep there own premises and their going to treat it as either on their platform or an external remote location that's going to be everywhere, big surface area. So with that, what are some of the under the hood benefits of the OS? Can you go into more detail on that because I find that to be much more interesting to say the network architect or someone who's saying, "Hey you know what? "I got hybrid cloud right now. "I got Amazon, I know the future's coming on "to my front door step really fast. "I got to start architecting, I got to start hiring, "I got to start planning for distributed cloud "and distributed edge deployments." If not already doing it. So technical depth becomes an huge issue. I might try some things with my old gear or old stuff. They're in this mold, you know, a lot of people are in that mode. I'll do a little technical depth to learn but ultimately I got to build out this capability. What do you guys do for that? >> So the critical thing for us is that you have to standardize on an open non-proprietary orchestration layer, right? You can talk about containers and microservices all day long. We hear those terms all the time but what people really need to make sure that they focus on is that their orchestrator that managing those containers is open and non-proprietary. If you pull that from one of the current vendors it's going to be something that is network centric and it's going to be something that was developed by them for their use. Their basically saying here's another silo, keep feeding into it. Sure we give you API, sure we give you a way to programmatically configure the network but you're still doing it specifically to me. One of the smartest decisions we made besides just using Kubernetes as core infrastructure. We've also completely adapted their API structure. So if you already speak Kubernetes, if you understand how to configure network paradigms in Kubernetes, we just extend that. So now you can take somebody, who off the street might be a Cloud Native Kubernetes expert and say here's a little bit of networking, go to play the network, right? You just have to take the barrier down of what you have to teach them from this CLI and this API structure that's specific to this vendor, and then this CLI and this API structure. But the cool thing about what we're doing is we also don't leave the network engineers out in the cold, we've give them a fully Cloud Native network CLI that is just like everything else they're used to, but it's doing all this Cloud Native Kubernetes microservices containers stuff underneath to hide all that from them. So they don't have to learn it and that's powerful because we recognize because of our Ops experience, there's a lot of different people touching these boxes. Whether you put it in a ivory tower or not, you've got knocks that have to login and check 'em, you've got junior network admin, senior network engineers, architects. You've got Cloud Native folks, Kubernetes folks, everybody has to look at these boxes, so they all have to have ways that end of the switch, end of the routers that is native to what they understand. So that's very critical as to present data that makes sense to the audience. >> And also give them comfort to what they're used to like you said before. If they got whatever's running Linux on there, as long as it's operationally running, water's flowing through the pipes, your packets are moving through, their happy. >> Glenn: Right. >> But they got to have this new capability to please the people who need to touch the boxes and work with the network, and gives them some more capabilities. >> Right, it prevents you from building those silos which is really critical in the Cloud Native. And that's what public cloud 1.0 taught us, right? Is stop building these silos, these infrastructure silos and say okay, you look at AWS right now. There's AWS certified engineers, they're not network experts, they're not storage experts, their not compute experts, they're AWS experts. And you're going to see the same thing happen with Cloud Native. >> Cloud 3.0 is decimating the silos basically 'cause if this goes that next level, that's why horizontally scalable networks is the way to go, right? That's kind of what you were talking about about the use case. >> Yeah, I think all revolutionary ideas are all actually more transformational. Revolutions begin by taking something that is familiar and presenting it in a new way, and enabling somebody to do something different. So I think it's important as we approach this is to not just come in and go, 'Oh what you're doing is stupid, we have to replace it.' The answer is, what you're doing is obviously the right thing. But you've not been given the tools that enable you to take full advantage and achieve the full potential of the network as it relates to your business. >> And you guys know as well as we do is that the networking folks are, it's a high bar for them because you mentioned the security and the lockdown nature of networking. It's always been, you don't F with it because you think that thing is going to be, anyone who touches it, they need to be reviewed. So they're a hard customer to sell to. You got to align with their Ops mindset. >> I think the network operators have been, and Glenn, and our other co-founder have waxed theoretical about this. (laughter) But network operators have been forced to live in a world of no. Anytime the business comes to them and says, "Hey we need you to do X." The answer is no, because I know that if I touch my stuff it's going to break, or I'm limited in what I can do, or I can't achieve the timeframe that you're looking for. So the network has always been an inhibitor but the heroes of the moment are actually the network operations team. Because nobody knows that the network was an inhibitor. >> Well this is an interesting agile conversation we've been having this is our, here in our Cube Studios yesterday amongst our own team because we love agile content. Agile's different, agile is about getting to yes because iteration in a sense is about learning, right? So you have to say no, but you have to say no with the idea of getting to yes. Because the whole microservices is about figuring out through iteration and ultimately automation, what to tear down, what to. So I would see a trend where it's not the no Ops kind of guys, as they say, "No, no, no." It's no, don't mess with the current operational plumbing. >> Glenn: Right. >> But we got to get to yes for the new capabilities. So there's a shift in the Cloud Native. Your thoughts and reaction to that Glenn. >> Yeah, so it's basically like I set myself up so that I'm doing a whole drop the forklift with everything in there, like a crated replacement. Networking has always been this way. I'm not saying no to you, I'm just saying not right now. I do my maintenance three times a year on the third Sunday of the second month and the moon's in the right place, and I make sure that I've 50/60 changes. I've got 20 engineers on call, we do everything in order. We've got a rollback plan if something breaks. This is the problem. Network engineers don't do enough changes to build a muscle like the agile developers have seen or CI/CD developers have seen. Where it's like I do a little bit of changes everyday, if something breaks, I roll it back. I do a little bit of changes everyday, and if something breaks I roll it back. That's what we enable because you can do things without breaking the entire system, you can just replace a container, you can move on. In networking, the classic networking, you're stack modeling so many changes and so many new things that everything has to be a greenfield deployment. How many times have you heard that? Like, "Oh this thing would be perfect "for our Greenfield Data Center. "We're going to do everything different "in this Greenfield Data Center." And that doesn't work. >> You don't get a mulligan in network and you realize they say, look this is a good point, great conversation. I think that is a very good follow up topic because developing those muscles is an operational practice as well as understanding what you're building. You got to know what the outcome looks like, this is where we're starting to get into more of these agile apps. And you guys are at the front end of it, and I think this is a sea change, cloud 2.0. >> Yeah, it is. >> Quick plug for the company. Take the last minute to explain what you guys are up to, hiring, funding. What are you guys looking for? Give a quick plug for the company. >> Yeah, I mean, we're doing great. Always hiring, everybody always is if you're a cutting edge startup. We're always looking for great new talent. Yeah, we're moving forward with our next round of funding plans. We're looking at expanding the growth of the company or go to market. Doubling down on our engineering. We're just delivering now our Kubernetes fabric capabilities, so that's the next big functional release that we're actually already delivered the beta of. So taking Kubernetes and actually using it as a distributed fabric. So a lot of exciting things happening technology wise. A lot of customer engagements happening. So yeah, it's great. >> Glenn, what are you excited about now? Obviously Kubernetes, we know you're excited about. >> Oh yeah. >> But what's getting you excited. >> So the dual process that we have where we actually use, we're doing stuff in Kubernetes that nobody else is doing because we have a version that runs on the switch. And it manages all the containers local and then it also talks to a big controller. It's fixing that SDN issue, right? Where you have this SDN controller that manages everything in the data plane, and it controls my devices, and it uses open flow to do this. And it has a headless operation in case the controllers go away. Oh and if I need another controller, here's another one, so now I've got two controllers. It gets really messy, you got to buy a lot of gear to manage it. Now we're saying, 'Okay, you've got 'Kubernetes running local. 'You don't want to have a Kubernetes cluster, don't bother.' It just uses it autonomously. 'You want to manage it as a fabric like Dom says. 'Now you can use the Kubernetes fabric 'that you've already built. 'There are Kubernetes masters that 'you've already built for the applications.' And now we can start to really imbed some really neat operational stuff in there. Things that as a network engineer took me years of breaking stuff and then fixing it to learn, we can start putting those operational intelligence in the operating system itself to make it react to problems in the network and solve things before waking people up at three a.m.. >> This takes policy to a whole nother level. >> Absolutely. >> It's a whole nother intelligence layer. >> Yeah, if this is broken, do this, cut off the arm to save the rest of the animal. And don't wake people up and troubleshoot stuff, troubleshoot stuff during the day when everybody's there and happy and awake. >> Guys congratulations. SnapRoute, hot startup. Networking is the real area for cloud 2.0. You got realtime, you got data, you got to move packets from A to B, you got to store them, you got to move compute around, you need to (laughs) move stuff around the cloud to distribute to networks. Thanks for coming in. >> Thanks. >> Thank you. >> Appreciate it. >> Thanks for having us. >> I'm John Furrier for Cube Conversation here in Palo Alto which SnapRoute, thanks for watching. (upbeat jazz music)

>> live from San Francisco, California. It's the key. You covering the IBM chief Data officer? Someone brought to you by IBM. >> We're back at the IBM CDO conference. Fisherman's Worf Worf in San Francisco. You're watching the Cube, the leader in life tech coverage. My name is David Dante. Glenn Finches. Here's the global leader of Big Data Analytics and IBM, and we're pleased to have Mark Clare. He's the head of data enablement at AstraZeneca. Gentlemen, welcome to the Cube. Thanks for coming on my mark. I'm gonna start with this head of data Data Enablement. That's a title that I've never heard before. And I've heard many thousands of titles in the Cube. What is that all about? >> Well, I think it's the credit goes to some of the executives at AstraZeneca when they recruited me. I've been a cheap date officer. Several the major financial institutions, both in the U. S. And in Europe. Um, AstraZeneca wanted to focus on how we actually enable our business is our science areas in our business is so it's not unlike a traditional CDO role, but we focus a lot more on what the enabling functions or processes would be >> So it sounds like driving business value is really the me and then throw. Sorry. >> I've always looked at this role in three functions value, risk and cost. So I think that in any CDO role, you have to look at all three. I think the you'd slide it if you didn't. This one with the title. Obviously, we're looking at quite a bit at the value we will drive across the the firm on how to leverage our date in a different way. >> I love that because you can quantify all three. All right, Glenn. So you're the host of this event. So awesome. I love that little presentation that you gave. So for those you didn't see it, you gave us pay stubs and then you gave us a website and said, Take a picture of the paste up, uploaded, and then you showed how you're working with your clients. Toe. Actually digitize that and compress all kinds of things. Time to mortgage origination. Time to decision. So explain that a little bit. And what's that? What's the tech behind that? And how are people using it? You know, >> for three decades, we've had this OCR technology where you take a piece of paper, you tell the machine what's on the paper. What longitudinal Enter the coordinates are and you feed it into the hope and pray to God that it isn't in there wrong. The form didn't change anything like that. That's what that's way. We've lived for three decades with cognitive and a I, but I read things like the human eye reads things. And so you put the page in and the machine comes back and says, Hey, is this invoice number? Hey, is this so security number? That's how you train it as compared to saying, Here's what it So we use this cognitive digitization capability to grab data that's locked in documents, and then you bring it back to the process so that you can digitally re imagine the process. Now there's been a lot of use of robotics and things like that. I'm kind of taken existing processes, and I'm making them incrementally. Better write This says look, you now have the data of the process. You can re imagine it. However, in fact, the CEO of our client ADP said, Look, I want you to make me a Netflix, not a blood Urbach Blockbuster, right? So So it's a mind shift right to say we'll use this data will read it with a I will digitally re imagine the process. And it usually cuts like 70 or 80% of the cycle time, 50 to 75% of the cost. I mean, it's it's pretty groundbreaking when you see it. >> So markets ahead of data neighborhood. You hear something like that and you're not. You're not myopically focused on one little use case. You're taking a big picture of you doing strategies and trying to develop a broader business cases for the organization. But when you see an example like that and many examples out there, I'm sure the light bulbs go off. So >> I wrote probably 10 years cases down while >> Glenn was talking about you. You do get tactical, Okay, but but But where do you start when you're trying to solve these problems? >> Well, I look att, Glenn's example, And about five and 1/2 years ago, Glenn was one I went to had gone to a global financial service, firms on obviously having scale across dozens of countries, and I had one simple request. Thio Glenn's team as well as a number of other technology companies. I want cognitive intelligence for on data in Just because the process is we've had done for 20 years just wouldn't scale not not its speed across many different languages and cultures. And I now look five and 1/2 years later, and we have beginning of, I would say technology opportunities. When I asked Glenn that question, he was probably the only one that didn't think I had horns coming out of my head, that I was crazy. I mean, some of the leading technology firms thought I was crazy asking for cognitive data management capabilities, and we are five and 1/2 years later and we're seeing a I applied not just on the front end of analytics, but back in the back end of the data management processes themselves started automate. So So I look, you know, there's a concept now coming out day tops on date offices. You think of what Dev Ops is. It's bringing within our data management processes. It's bringing cognitive capabilities to every process step, And what level of automation can we do? Because the, you know, for typical data science experiment 80 to 90% of that work Estate engineering. If I can automate that, then through a date office process, then I could get to incite much faster, but not in scale it and scale a lot more opportunities and have to manually do it. So I I look at presentations and I think, you know, in every aspect of our business, where we clear could we apply >> what you talk about date engineering? You talk about data scientist spending his or her time just cleaning the wrangling data, All the all the not fun stuff exactly plugging in cables back in the infrastructure date. >> You're seeing horror stories right now. I heard from a major academic institution. A client came to them and their data scientists. They had spent several years building. We're spending 99% of their time trying to cleanse and prep data. They were spend 90% cleansing and prepping, and of the remaining 10% 90% of that fixing it where they fix it wrong and the first time so they had 1% of their job doing their job. So this is a huge opportunity. You can start automating more of that and actually refocusing data science on data >> science. So you've been a chief data officer number of financial institutions. You've got this kind of cool title now, which touches on some of the things a CDO might do and your technical. We got a technical background. So when you look a lot of the what Ginny Rometty calls incumbents, call them incumbent Disruptors two years ago at Ivy and think they've got data that has been hardened, you know, in all these projects and use cases and it's locked and people talk about the silos, part of your role is to figure out Okay, how do we get that data out? Leverage. It put it at the core. Is that is that fair? >> Well, and I'm gonna stay away from the word core cause to make core Kenan for kind of legacy processes of building a single repositories single warehouse, which is very time consuming. So I think I can I leave it where it is, but find a wayto to unify it. >> Not physically, exactly what I say. Corny, but actually the court, that's what we need >> to think about is how to do this logically and cream or of Ah unification approach that has speed and agility with it versus the old physical approaches, which took time. And resource is >> so That's a that's a computer science problem that people have been trying to solve for years. Decentralized, distributed, dark detectors, right? And why is it that we're now able Thio Tap your I think it's >> a perfect storm of a I of Cloud, the cloud native of Io ti, because when you think of I o. T, it's a I ot to be successful fabric that can connect millions of devices or millions of sensors. So you'd be paired those three with the investment big data brought in the last seven or eight years and big data to me. Initially, when I started talking to companies in the Valley 10 years ago, the early days of, um, apparatus, what I saw or companies and I could get almost any of the digital companies in the valley they were not. They were using technology to be more agile. They were finding agile data science. Before we call the data signs the map produce and Hadoop, we're just and after almost not an afterthought. But it was just a mechanism to facilitate agility and speed. And so if you look at how we built out all the way up today and all the convergence of all these new technologies, it's a perfect storm to actually innovate differently. >> Well, what was profound about my producing in the dupe? It was like leave the data where it is and shipped five megabytes a code two upended by the data and that you bring up a good point. We've now, we spent 10 years leveraging that at a much lower cost. And you've got the cloud now for scale. And now machine intelligence comes in that you can apply in the data causes. Bob Pityana once told me, Data's plentiful insights aren't Amen to that. So Okay, so this is really interesting discussion. You guys have known each other for a couple of couple of decades. How do you work together toe to solve problems Where what is that conversation like, Do >> you want to start that? >> So, um, first of all, we've never worked together on solving small problems, not commodity problems. We would usually tackle something that someone would say would not be possible. So normally Mark is a change agent wherever he goes. And so he usually goes to a place that wants to fix something or change something in an abnormally short amount of time for an abnormally small amount of money. Right? So what's strange is that we always find that space together. Mark is very judicious about using us as a service is firm toe help accelerate those things. But then also, we build in a plan to transition us away in transition, in him into full ownership. Right. But we usually work together to jump start one of these wicked, hard, wicked, cool things that nobody else >> was. People hate you. At first. They love you. I would end the one >> institution and on I said, OK, we're going to a four step plan. I'm gonna bring the consultants in day one while we find Thailand internally and recruit talent External. That's kind of phases one and two in parallel. And then we're gonna train our talent as we find them, and and Glenn's team will knowledge transfer, and by face for where, Rayna. And you know, that's a model I've done successfully in several organizations. People can. I hated it first because they're not doing it themselves, but they may not have the experience and the skills, and I think as soon as you show your staff you're willing to invest in them and give them the time and exposure. The conversation changes, but it's always a little awkward. At first, I've run heavy attrition, and some organizations at first build the organizations. But the one instance that Glen was referring to, we came in there and they had a 4 1 1 2 1 12 to 15 year plan and the C I O. Looked at me, he says. I'll give you two years. I'm a bad negotiator. I got three years out of it and I got a business case approved by the CEO a week later. It was a significant size business case in five minutes. I didn't have to go back a second or third time, but we said We're gonna do it in three years. Here's how we're gonna scale an organization. We scaled more than 1000 person organization in three years of talent, but we did it in a planned way and in that particular organization, probably a year and 1/2 in, I had a global map of every data and analytics role I need and I could tell you were in the US they set and with what competitors earning what industry and where in India they set and in what industry And when we needed them. We went out and recruited, but it's time to build that. But you know, in any really period, I've worked because I've done this 20 plus years. The talent changes. The location changes someone, but it's always been a challenge to find him. >> I guess it's good to have a deadline. I guess you did not take the chief data officer role in your current position. Explain that. What's what. What's your point of view on on that role and how it's evolved and how it's maybe being used in ways that don't I >> mean, I think that a CDO, um on during the early days, there wasn't a definition of a matter of fact. Every time I get a recruiter, call me all. We have a great CDO row for first time I first thing I asked him, How would you define what you mean by CDO? Because I've never seen it defined the same way into cos it's just that way But I think that the CDO, regardless of institutions, responsibility end in to make sure there's an Indian framework from strategy execution, including all of the governance and compliance components, and that you have ownership of each piece in the organization. CDO most companies doesn't own all of that, but I think they have a responsibility and too many organizations that hasn't occurred. So you always find gaps and each organization somewhere between risk costs and value, in terms of how how they're, how the how the organization's driving data and in my current role. Like I said, I wanted to focus. We want the focus to really be on how we're enabling, and I may be enabling from a risk and compliance standpoint, Justus greatly as I'm enabling a gross perspective on the business or or cost management and cost reductions. We have been successful in several programs for self funding data programs for multi gears. By finding and costs, I've gone in tow several organizations that it had a decade of merger after merger and Data's afterthought in almost any merger. I mean, there's a Data Silas section session tomorrow. It'd be interesting to sit through that because I've found that data data is the afterthought in a lot of mergers. But yet I knew of one large health care company. They've made data core to all of their acquisitions, and they was one the first places they consolidated. And they grew faster by acquisition than any of their competitors. So I think there's a There's a way to do it correctly. But in most companies you go in, you'll find all kinds of legacy silos on duplication, and those are opportunities to, uh, to find really reduce costs and self fund. All the improvements, all the strategic programs you wanted, >> a number inferring from the Indian in the data roll overlaps or maybe better than gaps and data is that thread between cost risk. And it is >> it is. And I've been lucky in my career. I've report toe CEOs. I reported to see Yellows, and I've reported to CEO, so I've I've kind of reported in three different ways, and each of those executives really looked at it a little bit differently. Value obviously is in a CEO's office, you know, compliance. Maurizio owes office and costs was more in the c i o domain, but you know, we had to build a program looking >> at all three. >> You know, I think this topic, though, that we were just talking about how these rules are evolving. I think it's it's natural, because were about 5 2.0. to 7 years into the evolution of the CDO, it might be time for a CDO Um, and you see Maur CEOs moving away from pure policy and compliance Tomb or value enablement. It's a really hard change, and that's why you're starting to Seymour turnover of some of the studios because people who are really good CEOs at policy and risk and things like that might not be the best enablers, right? So I think it's pretty natural evolution. >> Great discussion, guys. We've got to leave it there, They say. Data is the new oil date is more valuable than oil because you could use data to reduce costs to reduce risk. The same data right toe to drive revenue, and you can't put a gallon of oil in your car and a quart of oil in the car quarter in your house of data. We think it's even more valuable. Gentlemen, thank you so much for coming on the cues. Thanks so much. Lot of fun. Thanks. Keep right, everybody. We'll be back with our next guest. You're watching the Cube from IBM CDO 2019 right back.

>> live from Las Vegas. It's the queue covering del Technologies. World twenty nineteen. Brought to you by Del Technologies and its ecosystem partners. >> Welcome back to Las Vegas. Lisa Martin with John Ferrier. You're watching the Cube live at Del Technologies World twenty nineteen. This is our second full day of Double Cube set coverage. We've got a couple of we're gonna really cool conversation coming up for you. We've got Robbie Pender County, one of our alumni on the cue back as VP product management server solutions. Robbie, Welcome back. >> Thank you, Lisa. Much appreciated. >> And you brought some Hollywood? Yes. Glenn Glenn ER, president of Sony Innovation Studios. Glenn and welcome to the Cube. >> Thank you very much. It's great to be here. >> So you are love this intersection of Hollywood and technology. But you're a filmmaker. >> Yeah. I have been filming movies for many years. Uh, I started off making motion pictures for many years. Executive produced him and over so production for them at one of our movie labels called Screen Gems, which is part of Sony Pictures. >> Wait a tremendous amount of evolution of the creative process being really fueled by technology and vice versa. Sony Innovation Studios is not quite one year old. This is a really exciting venture. Tell us about that and and what the the impetus was to start this company. >> You know that the genesis for it was based out of necessity because I looked at a nice Well, you know, I love making movies were doing it for a long time. And the challenge of making good pictures is resource is and you never get enough money believing not you never get enough money and never get enough time. That's everybody's issue, particularly time management. And I thought, Well, you know, we got a pretty good technology company behind us. What if we looked inward towards technology to help us find solutions? And so innovation studios is born out of that idea on what was exciting about it was to know that we had, uh, invited partners to the game right here with Del so that we could make movies and television shows and commercials and even enterprise solutions leaning into state of the art and cutting edge technology. >> And what some of the work prize and you guys envision coming out this mission you mentioned commercials. TV is it going to be like an artist's studio actor? Ackerson Ball is Take us through what this is going to look like. How does it get billed out? >> I lean into my career as a producer. To answer that one and say is going to enable that's one of the greatest things about being a producer is enabling stories, uh, inspiring ideas to be Greenland. That may not have been able to be done so before. And there's a key reason why we can't do that, because one of our key technologies is what we call the volumetric image acquisition. That's a lot of words. You probably say. What the heck is that? But a volumetric image acquisition is our ability to capture a real world, this analog world and digitize it, bring it into our servers using the power of Del and then live in that new environment, which is now a virtual sets. And that virtual set is made out of billions and trillions in quadrillions of points, much like the matter around us. And it's a difference because many people use pixels, which is interpretation of like worry, using points which is representative of the world around us, so it's a whole revolutionary way of looking at it. But what it allows us to do is actually film in it in a thirty K moving volume. >> It's like a monster green screen for the world. Been away >> in a way, your your your your action around it because you have peril X so these cameras could be photographing us. And for all you know, we may not be here. Could be at stage seven at Innovation Studios and not physically here, but you couldn't tell it. If >> this is like cloud computing, we talking check world, you don't the provisional these resource is you just get what you want. This is Hollywood looking at the artistry, enabling faster, more agile storytelling. You don't need to go set up a town and go get the permit. All the all the heavy lifting you're shooting in this new digital realm. >> That's right. Exactly. Now I love going on location on. There's a lot to celebrate about going on location, but we can always get to that location. Think of all the locations that we want to be in that air >> base off limits. Both space, the one I >> haven't been, uh, but but on said I've been I've walked on virtual moons and I've walked on set moons. But what if we did a volumetric image acquisition of someone set off the moon? Now we have that, and then we can walk around it. Or what if there's a great club, a nightclub? This says guys want you shoot here, but we have performances Monday night, Tuesday night, Wednesday night there. You know they have a job. What if we grab that image, acquired it, and then you could be there anytime you want. >> Robbie, we could go for an hour here. This is just a great comic. I >> completely agree with you. >> The Cube. You could. You could sponsor a cube in this new world. We could run the Q twenty four seven. That's absolutely >> right. And we don't even have >> to talk about the relationship with Dale because on Del Technologies, because you're enabling new capabilities. New kind of artistry was just totally cool. Want to get back to the second? But you guys were involved. What's your role? How do you get involved? Tell the story about your >> John. I mean, first and foremost one of things that didn't Glendon mention is he's actually got about fifty movies to his credit. So the guy actually knows this stuff, so which is absolutely fantastic. So we said, How do you go take average to the next level? So what else is better than trying to work something out, wherein we together between what Glenn and Esteem does at the Sony Innovation Labs for Studio Sorry. And as in Dead Technologies could do is to try and actually stretch the boundaries of our technology to a next tent that when he talks about kazillion bytes of data right one followed the harmony of our zeros way have to be able to process the data quickly. We have to be able to go out and do their rendering. We probably have to go out and do whatever is needed to make a high quality movie, and that, I think, in a way, is actually giving us an opportunity to go back and test the boundaries of their technology. They're building, which we believe this is the first of its kind in the media industry. If we can go learn together from this experience, we can actually go ahead and do other things in other industries. To maybe, and we were just talking about how we could also take this. He's got his labs here in Los Angeles, were thinking maybe one of the next things we do based on the learnings we get, we probably could take it to other parts of the world. And if we are successful, we might even take it to other industries. What if we could go do something to help in this field of medicine? >> It's just thinking that, right? Yes. >> Think about it. Lisa, John. I mean, it's phenomenal. I mean, this is something Michael always talks about is how do we as del technologies help in progress in the human kind? And if this is something that we can learn from, I think it's going to be phenomenal. >> I think I think that's so interesting. Not only is that a good angle for Del Technologies, the thing that strikes me is the access toe artist trees, voices, new voices that may be missed in the prop the vetting process the old way. But, you know, you got to know where we're going. No, in the Venture Capital way seen this with democratization of seed labs and incubators, where, if you can create access to the story, tells on the artists we're gonna have one more exposure to people might have missed. But also as things change, like whether it's Ray Ray beaming and streaming, we saw in the gaming side to pull a metric or volumetric things. You're gonna have a better canvas, more paint brushes on the creative side and more. Artist. Is that the mission to get AC, get those artists in there? Is it? Is that part of the core mission submission? Because you're going to be essentially incubating new opportunities really fast. >> It's, uh, it's very important to me. Personally. I know it speaks of the values of both Sony and L. I like to call it the democratization of storytelling. You know, I've been very blessed again, a Hollywood producer, and we maybe curate a certain kind of movie, a certain kind of experience. But there's so many voices around the world that need to be hurt, and there are so many stories that otherwise can't be enabled. Imagine a story that perhaps is a unique >> special voice but requires distance. It requires five disparate locations Perhaps it's in London, Piccadilly Circus and in Times Square. And perhaps it's overto Abu Dhabi on DH Libya somewhere because that's part of the story. We can now collapse geography and bring those locations to a central place and allow a story to be told that may not otherwise have been able to be created. And that's vital to the fabric of storytelling worldwide's >> going change the creative process to you don't have to have that waterfall kind of mentality like we don't talk about intact. You're totally distributed content, decentralized, potentially the creative process going change with all the tools and also the visual tools. >> That's right. It's >> almost becoming unlimited. >> You wanted to be unlimited. You want the human spirit to be unlimited. You want to be able to elevate people on. That's the great thing about what we're trying to achieve and will achieve. >> It is your right. I mean, it is interesting, you know, we were just talking about this, too. Uh, we're in, you know, as an example. Shock tank. Yes, right. I mean, they obviously did it. The filming and stuff, and then they don't have the access. Let's say to the right studio. But the fact is, they had all this done. Andi, you know, they had all the rendering they had captured. Already done. You could now go out and do your chute without having all the space you needed. >> That's right. In the case of Shark Tank, which shoots a Sony Pictures studios, they knew they had a real estate issue. The fact of the matter is, there's a limited amount of sound stages around the world. They needed to sound stages and only had access to one. So we went in and we did a volumetric image acquisition of their exit interview stage. They're set. And then when it came time to shoot the second half a season ten, one hundred contestants went into a virtual set and were filmed in that set. And the funny thing is, one of the guys in the truck you know how you have the camera trucks and, you know, off offstage, he leaned into the mike. Is that you guys, could you move that plant a couple inches to the left and somebody said, Uh, I don't think we can do it right now, he said, We're on a movie lot. You could move a plant. They said No, it's physically not there. We're on innovation studios goes Oh, that's right. It's virtual mind. >> So he was fooled. >> He was pulled. In a way, we're >> being hashing it out within a team. When we heard about some of the things you know Glenn and Team are doing is think about this. If you have to teach people when we are running short of doctors, right? Yeah, if you could. With this technology and the learnings that come from here, if you could go have an expert surgeon do surgery once you're captured, it would be nice. Just imagine, to take that learning, go to the new surgeons of the future and trained them and so they can get into the act without actually doing it. So my point and all this is this is where I think we can take technology, that next level where we can not only learn from one specific industry, but we could potentially put it to human good in terms of what we could to and not only preparing the next of doctors, but also take it to the next level. >> This was a great theme to Michael Dell put out there about these new kinds of use case is that the time is now to do before. Maybe you could get there technology, but maybe aspirational. Hey, let's do it. I could see that, Glenn, I want to ask you specifically. The time is now. This is all kind of coming together. Timing's pretty good. It's only gonna get better. It's gonna be good Tech, Tech mojo Coming for the creative side. Where were we before? Because I can almost imagine this is not a new vision for you. Probably seen it now that this house here now what was it like before for, um and compare contrast where you were a few years ago, maybe decades. Now what's different? Why? Why is this so important >> for me? There's a fundamental change in how we can create content and how we can tell stories. It used to be the two most expensive words in the movie TV industry were what if today that the most important words to me or what if Because what if we could collapse geography? What if we could empower a new story? Technology is at a place where, if we can dream it. Chances are we can make it a reality. We're changing the dynamics of how we may content. He used to be lights, action camera. I think it's now lights, action, compute power action, you know, is that kind of difference. >> That is an amazing vision. I think society now has opportunities to kind of take that from distance learning to distance connections, the distance sharing experiences, whether it's immersion, virtual analog face, the face could really be powerful. Yeah, >> and this is not even a year old. >> That's right. >> So if you look at your your launch, you said, I think let june fourth twenty eighteen. What? Where do you go from here? I mean, like we said, this is like, unlimited possibilities. But besides putting Robbie in the movie, naturally, Yes, of course I have >> a star here >> who? E. >> So I got to say he's got star power. >> What's what's next year? Exactly? >> Very exciting. I will say we have shark tank Thie Advanced Imaging Society gives an award for being the first volume met you set ever put out on the airwaves. Uh, for that television show is a great honor. We have already captured uh, men in black. We captured a fifty thousand square foot stage that had the men in black headquarters has been used for commercials to market the film that comes out this June. We have captured sets where television shows >> and in hopes, that they got a second season and one television show called up and said, Guys, we got the second season so they don't have to go back to what was a very expensive set and a beautiful set >> way captured that set. It reminds me of a story of productions and a friend of mine said, which is every year. The greatest gift I have is building a beautiful set and and to me, the biggest challenges. When I say, remember that sent you built four years ago? I need that again. Now you can go >> toe. It's hard to replicate the exact set. You capture it digitally. It lives. >> That's exactly it. >> And this is amazing. I mean, I'd love to do a cube set into do ah, like a simulcast. Virtually. >> So. This is the next thing John and Lisa. You guys could be sitting anywhere going forward >> way. You don't have to be really sitting here >> you could be doing. What do you have to do? And, you know, you got everything rendered >> captured. We don't have to come to Vegas twenty times a year. >> We billed upset once. You >> know you want to see you here believing that So I'LL take that >> visual is a really beautiful thing. So if we can with hologram just seeing people doing conscious with Hollywood. Frank Zappa just did a concert hologram concert, but bringing real people and from communities around the world where the localization diversity right into a content mixture is just so powerful. >> Actually, you said something very interesting, John, which is one of the other teams to which is, if you have a globally connected society and he wanted try and personalize it to that particular nation ethnicity group. You can do that easily now because you can probably pop in actors from the local area with the same. Yeah, think about it. >> It's surely right. >> There's a cascade of transformations that that this is going Teo to generate. I mean just thinking of how different even acting schools and drama schools will be well, teaching people how to behave in these virtual environments, right? >> How to immerse themselves in these environments. And we have tricks up our sleeves that Khun put the actor in that moment through projection mapping and the other techniques that allow filmmakers and actors to actually understand the world. They're about to stepped in rather than a green screen and saying, OK, there's going to be a creature over here is gonna be blue Water falls over there will actually be able to see that environment because that environment will exist before they step on the stage. >> Well, great job the Del Partnership. On my final question, Glenn, free since you're awesome and got a great vision so smart, experienced, I've been really thinking a lot about how visualization and artistry are coming together and how disciplines silo disciplines like music. They do great music, but they're not translating to the graphics. It was just some about Ray tracing and the impact with GP use for an immersive experiences, which we're seeing on the client side of the house. It del So you got the back and stuff you metrics. And so, as artist trees, the next generation come up. This is now a link between the visual that audio the storytelling. It's not a siloed. >> It is not >> your I want to get your vision on. How do you see this playing out and your advice for young artists? That might be, you know, looked as country. What do you know? That's not how we do it. >> Well, the beautiful thing is that there are new ways to tell stories. You know, Hollywood has evolved over the last century. If you look at the studios and still exist, they have all evolved, and that's why they do exist. Great storytellers evolved. We tell stories differently, so long as we can emotionally relate to the story that's being told. I say, Do it in your own voice. The cinematic power is among us. We're blessed that when we look back, we have that shared experience, whether it's animate from Japan or traditional animation from Walt Disney everybody, she shares a similar history. Now it's opportunity to author our new stories, and we can do that and physical assets and volumetric assets and weaken blend the real and the unreal. With the compute power. The world is our oyster. >> Wow, >> What a nice >> trap right there. >> Exactly. That isn't my job. The transformation of of Hollywood. What it's really like the tip of the iceberg. Unlimited story potential. Thank you, Glenn. Thank you. This has been a fascinating cannot wait to hear, See and feel and touch What's next for Sony Animation studios With your technology power, we appreciate your time. >> Thank you. Thank you both. Which of >> our pleasure for John Carrier? I'm Lisa Martin. You're watching the Cube lie from Del Technologies World twenty nineteen We've just wrapped up Day two we'LL see you tomorrow.

>> Live from Las Vegas. It's the queue covering del Technologies. World twenty nineteen. Brought to you by Del Technologies and its ecosystem partners. >> Welcome back to Las Vegas. Lisa Martin with John Ferrier. You're watching the Cube live at Del Technologies World twenty nineteen. This is our second full day of Double Cube set coverage. We've got a couple of we got a really cool conversation coming up for you. We've got Robbie Pender County, one of our alumni on the cue back as VP product management server solutions. Robbie, Welcome back. >> Thank you, Lisa. Much appreciated. >> And you brought some Hollywood? Yes, Glenn Glenn er, president of Sony Innovation Studios. Glenn and welcome to the Cube. >> Thank you very much. It's great to be here. >> So you are love this intersection of Hollywood and technology. But you're a filmmaker. >> Yeah, I have been filming movies for many years. I started off making motion pictures for many years. Executive produced him and oversaw production for them at one of our movie labels called Screen Gems, which is part of Sony Pictures. >> Wait a tremendous amount of evolution of the creative process being really fueled by technology and vice versa. Sony Innovation Studios is not quite one year old. This is a really exciting venture. Tell us about that and and what the The impetus was to start this company. >> You know that the genesis for it was based out of necessity because I looked at a nice Well, you know, I love making movies were doing it for a long time. And the challenge of making good pictures is resource is and you never get enough money. Believe or not, you never get enough money and never get enough time. That's everybody's issue, particularly time management. And I thought, Well, you know, we got a pretty good technology company behind us. What if we looked inward towards technology to help us find solutions? And so innovation studios is born out of that idea on what was exciting about it was to know that we had, uh, invited partners to the game right here with Del so that we could make movies and television shows and commercials and even enterprise solutions leaning into state of the art and cutting edge technology. >> And what some of the work private you guys envision coming out this mission you mentioned commercials TV. Is it going to be like an artist's studio actor actress in ball is take us through what this is going to look like. How does it get billed out? >> I lean into my career as a producer. To answer that one and say is going to enable that's one of the greatest things about being a producer is enabling stories, uh, inspiring ideas to be green lit that may not have been able to be done so before. And there's a key reason why we can't do that, because one of our key technologies is what we call the volumetric image acquisition. That's a lot of words. You probably say. What the heck is that? But a volumetric image acquisition is our ability to capture a real world, this analog world and digitize it, bring it into our servers using the power of Del and then live in that new environment, which is now a virtual sets. And that virtual set is made out of billions and trillions in quadrillions of points, much like the matter around us. And that's a difference because many people use pixels, which is interpretation of like we're using points which is representative of the world around us, so it's a whole revolutionary way of looking at it. But what it allows us to do is actually film in it in a thirty K moving volume. >> It's like a monster green screen for the world. Been away >> in a way, you're you're you're interaction around it because you have peril X, so these cameras could be photographing us. And for all you know, we may not be here. Could be at stage seven at Innovation Studios and not physically here, but you couldn't tell the >> difference. This is like cloud computing. We talking check world, you don't the provisional these resource is you just get what you want. This is Hollywood looking at the artistry, enabling faster, more agile storytelling. You don't need to go set up a town and go get the permit. All the all the heavy lifting you're shooting in this new digital realm. >> That's right. Exactly. Now I love going on location on There's a lot to celebrate about going on location, but we can always get to that location. Think of all the locations that we want to be in that air >> base off limits. Both space, the one I >> haven't been, uh, but but on said I've been I've walked on virtual moons and I've walked on set moons. But what if we did a volumetric image acquisition of someone set off the moon? Now we have that, and then we can walk around it. Or what if there's a great club, a nightclub? This says guys and wanted to shoot here. But we have performances Monday night, Tuesday night, Wednesday night there. You know they have a job. What? We grabbed that image acquired it. And then you could be there anytime you want. >> Robbie, we could go for an hour here. This is just a great comic. I >> completely agree with >> you. The Cube. You could You could sponsor a cube in this new world. We could run the Q twenty four seven is absolutely >> right. And we don't even have >> to talk about the relationship with Dale because on Del Technologies, because you're enabling new capabilities. New kind of artistry, just totally cool. Want to get back to the second? But you guys were involved. What's your role? How do you get involved? Tell the story about your >> John. I mean, first and foremost one of the things didn't Glendon mention is he's actually got about fifty movies to his credit. So the guy actually knows this stuff. So which is absolutely fantastic. So we said, How do you go take coverage to the next level? So what else is better than trying to work something out, wherein we together between what Glenn and Esteem does at the Sony Innovation Labs for Studio Sorry. And as in Dead Technologies could do is to try and actually stretch the boundaries of our technology to a next tent that when he talks about kazillion bytes of data right one followed by harmony, our zeros. We have to be able to process the data quickly. We have to be able to go out and do their rendering. We probably have to go out and do whatever is needed to make a high quality movie, and that, I think, in a way, is actually giving us an opportunity to go back and test the boundaries of their technology. They're building, which we believe this is the first of its kind in the media industry. If we can go learn together from this experience, we can actually go ahead and do other things in other industries do. Maybe. And we were just talking about how we could also take this. He's got his labs here in Los Angeles, were thinking maybe one of the next things we do based on the learning to get. We probably could take it to other parts of the world. And if we are successful, we might even take it to other industries. What if we could go do something to help in this field of medicine? >> It's just thinking that, right? Yes. Think >> about it. Lisa, John. I mean, it's phenomenal. I mean, this is something Michael always talks about is how do we as del technologies help in progress in the human kind? And if this is something that we can learn from, I think it's going to be phenomenal. >> I think I think that's so interesting. Not only is that a good angle for Del Technologies, the thing that strikes me is the access to artist trees, voices, new voices that may be missed in the prop the vetting process the old way. But, you know, you got to know where we're going. No, in the venture, cobble way seen this with democratization of seed labs and incubators where, if you can create access to the story, tells on the artists we're gonna have one more exposure to people might have missed. But also as things change, like whether it's Ray Ray beaming and streaming we saw in the gaming side to volumetric or volumetric things, you're gonna have a better canvas, more paint brushes on the creative side and more action. Is that the mission to get AC Get those artists in there? Is it? Is that part of the core mission submission? Because you're going to be essentially incubating new opportunities really fast. >> It's, uh, it's very important to me. Personally. I know it speaks of the values of both Sony and L. I like to call it the democratization of storytelling. You know, I've been very blessed again, a Hollywood producer, and we maybe curate a certain kind of movie, a certain kind of experience. But there's so many voices around the world that need to be hurt, and there are so many stories that otherwise can't be enabled. Imagine a story that perhaps is >> a unique special voice but requires distance. It requires five disparate locations. Perhaps it's in London Piccadilly Circus and in Times Square. And perhaps it's overto Abu Dhabi on DH Libya somewhere because that's part of the story. We can now collapse geography and bring those locations to a central place and allow a story to be told that may not otherwise have been able to be created. And that's vital to the fabric of storytelling. Worldwide >> is going to change the creative process to You don't have to have that waterfall kind of mentality like we don't talk about intact. You're totally distributed content, decentralized, potentially the creative process going change with all the tools and also the visual tools. >> That's right. It's >> almost becoming unlimited. >> You want it to be unlimited. You want the human spirit to be unlimited. You want to be able to elevate people on. That's the great thing about what we're trying to achieve and will achieve. >> It is your right. I mean, it is interesting, you know, we were just talking about this too. We're in, you know, as an example, shock tank. Yes, right. I mean, they obviously did it the filming and stuff, and then they don't have the access, let's say to the right studio, but The fact is, there had all this done on DH. No, they had all the rendering. They had the captured already done. You could now go out and do your chute without having all the space you needed. >> That's right. In the case of Shark Tank, which shoots a Sony Pictures studios, they knew they had a real estate issue. The fact of the matter is, there's a limited amount of sound stages around the world. They needed to sound stages and only had access to one. So we went in and we did a volumetric image acquisition of their exit interview stage. They're set. And then when it came time to shoot the second half a season ten, one hundred contestants went into a virtual set and were filmed in that set. And the funny thing is, one of the guys in the truck you know how you have the camera trucks and, you know, off offstage, he leaned into the mike. Is that you guys, could you move that plant a couple inches to the left and somebody said, Uh, I don't think we can do it right now, he said. We're on a movie lot. You could move a plant. They said, No, it's physically not there. We're on innovation studios goes Oh, that's right. It's virtual mind. >> So he was fooled. >> He was pulled. In a way, we're >> being hashing it out within a team. When we heard about some of the things you know Glenn and Team are doing is think about this. If you have to teach people when we are running short of doctors, right? Yeah, if you could. With this technology and the learnings that come from here, if you could go have an expert surgeon do surgery once you're captured, it would be nice. Just imagine, to take that learning, go to the new surgeons of the future and trained them and so they can get into the act without actually doing it. So my point in all this is this is where I think we can take technology, that next level where we can not only learn from one specific industry, but we could potentially put it to human good in terms of what we could to and not only preparing the next of doctors, but also take it to the next level. >> This was a great theme to Michael Dell put out there about these new kinds of use case is that the time is now to do before. Maybe you couldn't get there with technology, but maybe aspirational, eh? Let's do it. I could see that. Glenn, I want to ask you specifically. The time is now. This is all kind of coming together. Timing's pretty good. It's only gonna get better. It's gonna be good. Tech, Tech mojo Coming for the creative side. Where were we before? Because I could almost imagine this is not a new vision for you. Probably seen it now that this house here now what was it like before for, um and compare contrast where you were a few years ago, maybe decades. Now what's different? Why? Why is this so important? >> You know, for me, there's a fundamental change in how we can create content and how we can tell stories. It used to be the two most expensive words in the movie TV industry were what if today that the most important words to me or what if Because what if we could collapse geography? What if we could empower a new story? Technology is at a place where if we can dream it. Chances are we can make it a reality. We're changing the dynamics of how we may content. He used to be lights, action, camera. I think it's now lights, action, compute power action, you know, is that kind of difference. >> That is an amazing vision. I think society now has opportunities to kind of take that from distance learning to distance connections, the distance sharing experiences, whether it's immersion, virtual analog face the face. I could really be powerful. Yeah, >> and this is not even a year old. >> That's right. >> So if you look at your your launch, you said, I think let june fourth twenty eighteen. What? Where do you go from here? I mean, like we said, this is like, unlimited possibilities. But besides putting Robbie in the movie, naturally, Yes, of course I have >> a star here >> who video. >> So I got to say he's got star power. >> What's what. The next year? Exactly. >> Very exciting. I will say we have shark tank Thie Advanced Imaging Society gives an award for being the first volume metric set ever put out on the airwaves. Uh, for that television show was a great honor. Uh, we have already captured, uh, men in black. We captured a fifty thousand square foot stage that had the men in black headquarters has been used for commercials to market the film that comes out this June. We have captured sets where television >> shows and in the in hopes that they got a second season and one television show called up and said, Guys, we got the second season so they don't have to go back to what was a very expensive set and a beautiful set >> Way captured that set. It reminds me of a story of productions and a friend of mine said, which is every year. The greatest gift I have is building a beautiful set and and to me, the biggest challenges. When I say, remember that sent you built four years ago. I need that again. Now you can go >> toe hard, replicate the exact set, you capture it digitally. It lives. >> That's exactly it. >> And this is amazing. I mean, I'd love to do a cube set into do ah, like a simulcasts. Virtually. >> So. This is the next thing John and Lisa. You guys could be sitting anywhere going forward. We don't have to be really sitting here you could be doing. What do you have to do? And, you know, you got everything rendered >> captured. We don't have to come to Vegas twenty times a year. >> We billed upset once >> You want to see you here believing that So I'LL take that >> visual is a really beautiful thing. So if we can with hologram just seeing people doing conscious. But Hollywood Frank Zappa just did a concert hologram concert, but bringing real people and from communities around the world where the localization diversity right into a content mixture is just so powerful. >> Actually, you said something very interesting, John, which is one of the other teams to which is, if you have a globally connected society and he wanted try and personalize it to that particular nation ethnicity group. You can do that easily now because you can probably pop in actors from the local area with the same city. Yeah, think about it. >> It's surely right. >> There's a cascade of transformations that that this is going Teo to generate. I mean just thinking of how different even acting schools and drama schools will be well, teaching people how to behave in these virtual environments, right? >> How to immerse themselves in these environments. And we have tricks up our sleeves that Khun put the actor in that moment through projection mapping and the other techniques that allow filmmakers and actors to actually understand the world. They're about to stepped in rather than a green screen and saying, OK, there's going to be a creature over here is gonna be blue Water Falls over there will actually be able to see that environment because that environment will exist before they step on the stage. >> Well, great job the Dale Partnership On my final question, Glenn free since you're awesome and got a great vision so smart, experienced, I've been really thinking a lot about how visualization and artistry are coming together and how disciplines silo disciplines like music. They do great music, but they're not translating to the graphics. It was just some about Ray tracing and the impact with GP use for immersive experiences, which was seeing on the client side of the house. It del So you got the back and stuff, but you metrics. And so, as artist trees, the next generation come up. This is now a link between the visual that audio, the storytelling. It's not a siloed. >> It is not >> your I want to get your vision on. How do you see this playing out and your advice for young artists? That might be, you know, looked as country. What do you know? That's not how we do it. >> Well, the beautiful thing is that there are new ways to tell stories. You know, Hollywood has evolved over the last century. If you look at the studios and still exist, they have all evolved, and that's why they do exist. Great storytellers evolved. We tell stories differently, so long as we can emotionally relate to the story that's being told. I say Do it in your own voice. The cinematic power is among us. We're blessed that when we look back, we have that shared experience, whether it's animate from Japan or traditional animation from Walt Disney, everybody shares a similar history. Now it's opportunity to author our new stories and we can do that and physical assets and volumetric assets and weakened blend the real and the unreal. With the compute power. The world is our oyster. >> Wow, >> What a nice >> trap right there. >> Exactly that is, um I dropped the transformation of Hollywood. What? And it's really think the tip of the iceberg. Unlimited story potential. Thank you, Glenn. Thank you. This has been a fascinating cannot wait to hear, See and feel and touch What's next for Sony Animation studios With your technology power We appreciate your time. >> Yeah, Thank you. Thank you both of >> our pleasure for John Farrier. I'm Lisa Martin. You're watching the Cube lie from Del Technologies World twenty nineteen We've just wrapped up Day two we'LL see you tomorrow.

>> From the SiliconANGLE Media office in Boston, Massachusetts, it's theCube! (funky electronic music) Now, here's your host, Dave Vellante! >> Welcome, everybody, to this Cube conversation here in our Marlborough offices. I am very excited today, I spent a number of years at IDC, which, of course, is owned by IDG. And there's a new book out, relatively new, called Future Forward: Leadership Lessons from Patrick McGovern, the Visionary Who Circled the Globe and Built a Technology Media Empire. And it's a great book, lotta stories that I didn't know, many that I did know, and the author of that book, Glenn Rifkin, is here to talk about not only Pat McGovern but also some of the lessons that he put forth to help us as entrepreneurs and leaders apply to create better businesses and change the world. Glenn, thanks so much for comin' on theCube. >> Thank you, Dave, great to see ya. >> So let me start with, why did you write this book? >> Well, a couple reasons. The main reason was Patrick McGovern III, Pat's son, came to me at the end of 2016 and said, "My father had died in 2014 and I feel like his legacy deserves a book, and many people told me you were the guy to do it." So the background on that I, myself, worked at IDG back in the 1980s, I was an editor at Computerworld, got to know Pat during that time, did some work for him after I left Computerworld, on a one-on-one basis. Then I would see him over the years, interview him for the New York Times or other magazines, and every time I'd see Pat, I'd end our conversation by saying, "Pat, when are we gonna do your book?" And he would laugh, and he would say, "I'm not ready to do that yet, there's just still too much to do." And so it became sort of an inside joke for us, but I always really did wanna write this book about him because I felt he deserved a book. He was just one of these game-changing pioneers in the tech industry. >> He really was, of course, the book was even more meaningful for me, we, you and I started right in the same time, 1983-- >> Yeah. >> And by that time, IDG was almost 20 years old and it was quite a powerhouse then, but boy, we saw, really the ascendancy of IDG as a brand and, you know, the book reviews on, you know, the back covers are tech elite: Benioff wrote the forward, Mark Benioff, you had Bill Gates in there, Walter Isaacson was in there, Guy Kawasaki, Bob Metcalfe, George Colony-- >> Right. >> Who actually worked for a little stint at IDC for a while. John Markoff of The New York Times, so, you know, the elite of tech really sort of blessed this book and it was really a lot to do with Pat McGovern, right? >> Oh, absolutely, I think that the people on the inside understood how important he was to the history of the tech industry. He was not, you know, a household name, first of all, you didn't think of Steve Jobs, Bill Gates, and then Pat McGovern, however, those who are in the know realize that he was as important in his own way as they were. Because somebody had to chronicle this story, somebody had to share the story of the evolution of this amazing information technology and how it changed the world. And Pat was never a front-of-the-TV-camera guy-- >> Right. >> He was a guy who put his people forward, he put his products forward, for sure, which is why IDG, as a corporate name, you know, most people don't know what that means, but people did know Macworld, people did know PCWorld, they knew IDC, they knew Computerworld for sure. So that was Pat's view of the world, he didn't care whether he had the spotlight on him or not. >> When you listen to leaders like Reed Hoffman or Eric Schmidt talk about, you know, great companies and how to build great companies, they always come back to culture. >> Yup. >> The book opens with a scene of, and we all, that I usually remember this, well, we're just hangin' around, waitin' for Pat to come in and hand out what was then called the Christmas bonus-- >> Right. >> Back when that wasn't politically incorrect to say. Now, of course, it's the holiday bonus. But it was, it was the Christmas bonus time and Pat was coming around and he was gonna personally hand a bonus, which was a substantial bonus, to every single employee at the company. I mean, and he did that, really, literally, forever. >> Forever, yeah. >> Throughout his career. >> Yeah, it was unheard of, CEOs just didn't do that and still don't do that, you were lucky, you got a message on the, you know, in the lunchroom from the CEO, "Good work, troops! Keep up the good work!" Pat just had a really different view of the culture of this company, as you know from having been there, and I know. It was very familial, there was a sense that we were all in this together, and it really was important for him to let every employee know that. The idea that he went to every desk in every office for IDG around the United States, when we were there in the '80s there were probably 5,000 employees in the US, he had to devote substantial amount-- >> Weeks and weeks! >> Weeks at a time to come to every building and do this, but year after year he insisted on doing it, his assistant at the time, Mary Dolaher told me she wanted to sign the cards, the Christmas cards, and he insisted that he ensign every one of them personally. This was the kind of view he had of how you keep employees happy, if your employees are happy, the customers are gonna be happy, and you're gonna make a lot of money. And that's what he did. >> And it wasn't just that. He had this awesome holiday party that you described, which was epic, and during the party, they would actually take pictures of every single person at the party and then they would load the carousel, you remember the 35-mm. carousel, and then, you know, toward the end of the evening, they would play that and everybody was transfixed 'cause they wanted to see their, the picture of themselves! >> Yeah, yeah. (laughs) >> I mean, it was ge-- and to actually pull that off in the 1980s was not trivial! Today, it would be a piece of cake. And then there was the IDG update, you know, the Good News memos, there was the 10-year lunch, the 20-year trips around the world, there were a lot of really rich benefits that, you know, in and of themselves maybe not a huge deal, but that was the culture that he set. >> Yeah, there was no question that if you talked to anybody who worked in this company over, say, the last 50 years, you were gonna get the same kind of stories. I've been kind of amazed, I'm going around, you know, marketing the book, talking about the book at various events, and the deep affection for this guy that still holds five years after he died, it's just remarkable. You don't really see that with the CEO class, there's a couple, you know, Steve Jobs left a great legacy of creativity, he was not a wonderful guy to his employees, but Pat McGovern, people loved this guy, and they st-- I would be signing books and somebody'd say, "Oh, I've been at IDG for 27 years and I remember all of this," and "I've been there 33 years," and there's a real longevity to this impact that he had on people. >> Now, the book was just, it was not just sort of a biography on McGovern, it was really about lessons from a leader and an entrepreneur and a media mogul who grew this great company in this culture that we can apply, you know, as business people and business leaders. Just to give you a sense of what Pat McGovern did, he really didn't take any outside capital, he did a little bit of, you know, public offering with IDG Books, but, really, you know, no outside capital, it was completely self-funded. He built a $3.8 billion empire, 300 publications, 280 million readers, and I think it was almost 100 or maybe even more, 100 countries. And so, that's an-- like you were, used the word remarkable, that is a remarkable achievement for a self-funded company. >> Yeah, Pat had a very clear vision of how, first of all, Pat had a photographic memory and if you were a manager in the company, you got a chance to sit in meetings with Pat and if you didn't know the numbers better than he did, which was a tough challenge, you were in trouble! 'Cause he knew everything, and so, he was really a numbers-focused guy and he understood that, you know, his best way to make profit was to not be looking for outside funding, not to have to share the wealth with investors, that you could do this yourself if you ran it tightly, you know, I called it in the book a 'loose-tight organization,' loose meaning he was a deep believer in decentralization, that every market needed its own leadership because they knew the market, you know, in Austria or in Russia or wherever, better than you would know it from a headquarters in Boston, but you also needed that tightness, a firm grip on the finances, you needed to know what was going on with each of the budgets or you were gonna end up in big trouble, which a lot of companies find themselves in. >> Well, and, you know, having worked there, I mean, essentially, if you made your numbers and did so ethically, and if you just kind of followed some of the corporate rules, which we'll talk about, he kind of left you alone. You know, you could, you could pretty much do whatever you wanted, you could stay in any hotel, you really couldn't fly first class, and we'll maybe talk about that-- >> Right. >> But he was a complex man, I mean, he was obviously wealthy, he was a billionaire, he was very generous, but at the same time he was frugal, you know, he drove, you know, a little, a car that was, you know, unremarkable, and we had buy him a car. He flew coach, and I remember one time, I was at a United flight, and I was, I had upgraded, you know, using my miles, and I sat down and right there was Lore McGovern, and we both looked at each other and said right at the same time, "I upgraded!" (laughs) Because Pat never flew up front, but he would always fly with a stack of newspapers in the seat next to him. >> Yeah, well, woe to, you were lucky he wasn't on the plane and spotted you as he was walking past you into coach, because he was not real forgiving when he saw people, people would hide and, you know, try to avoid him at all cost. And, I mean, he was a big man, Pat was 6'3", you know, 250 lbs. at least, built like a linebacker, so he didn't fit into coach that well, and he wasn't flying, you know, the shuttle to New York, he was flyin' to Beijing, he was flyin' to Moscow, he was going all over the world, squeezing himself into these seats. Now, you know, full disclosure, as he got older and had, like, probably 10 million air miles at his disposal, he would upgrade too, occasionally, for those long-haul flights, just 'cause he wanted to be fresh when he would get off the plane. But, yeah, these are legends about Pat that his frugality was just pure legend in the company, he owned this, you know, several versions of that dark blue suit, and that's what you would see him in. He would never deviate from that. And, but, he had his patterns, but he understood the impact those patterns had on his employees and on his customers. >> I wanna get into some of the lessons, because, really, this is what the book is all about, the heart of it. And you mentioned, you know, one, and we're gonna tell from others, but you really gotta stay close to the customer, that was one of the 10 corporate values, and you remember, he used to go to the meetings and he'd sometimes randomly ask people to recite, "What's number eight?" (laughs) And you'd be like, oh, you'd have your cheat sheet there. And so, so, just to give you a sense, this man was an entrepreneur, he started the company in 1964 with a database that he kind of pre-sold, he was kind of the sell, design, build type of mentality, he would pre-sold this thing, and then he started Computerworld in 1967, so it was really only a few years after he launched the company that he started the Computerworld, and other than Data Nation, there was nothing there, huge pent-up demand for that type of publication, and he caught lightning in a bottle, and that's really how he funded, you know, the growth. >> Yeah, oh, no question. Computerworld became, you know, the bible of the industry, it became a cash cow for IDG, you know, but at the time, it's so easy to look in hindsight and say, oh, well, obviously. But when Pat was doing this, one little-known fact is he was an editor at a publication called Computers and Automation that was based in Newton, Massachusetts and he kept that job even after he started IDC, which was the original company in 1964. It was gonna be a research company, and it was doing great, he was seeing the build-up, but it wasn't 'til '67 when he started Computerworld, that he said, "Okay, now this is gonna be a full-time gig for me," and he left the other publication for good. But, you know, he was sorta hedging his bets there for a little while. >> And that's where he really gained respect for what we'll call the 'Chinese Wallet,' the, you know, editorial versus advertising. We're gonna talk about that some more. So I mentioned, 1967, Computerworld. So he launched in 1964, by 1971, he was goin' to Japan, we're gonna talk about the China Stories as well, so, he named the company International Data Corp, where he was at a little spot in Newton, Mass.-- >> Right, right. >> So, he had a vision. You said in your book, you mention, how did this gentleman get it so right for so long? And that really leads to some of the leadership lessons, and one of them in the book was, sort of, have a mission, have a vision, and really, Pat was always talking about information, about information technology, in fact, when Wine for Dummies came out, it kind of created a little friction, that was really off the center. >> Or Wine for Dummies, or Sex for Dummies! >> Yeah, Sex for Dummies, boy, yeah! >> With, that's right, Ruth Westheimer-- >> Dr. Ruth Westheimer. >> But generally speaking, Glenn, he was on that mark, he really didn't deviate from that vision. >> Yeah, no, it was very crucial to the development of the company that he got people to, you know, buy into that mission, because the mission was everything. And he understood, you know, he had the numbers, but he also saw what was happening out there, from the 1960s, when IBM mainframes filled a room, and, you know, only the high priests of data centers could touch them. He had a vision for, you know, what was coming next and he started to understand that there would be many facets to this information about information technology, it wasn't gonna be boring, if anything, it was gonna be the story of our age and he was gonna stick to it and sell it. >> And, you know, timing is everything, but so is, you know, Pat was a workaholic and had an amazing mind, but one of the things I learned from the book, and you said this, Pat Kenealy mentioned it, all American industrial and social revolutions have had a media company linked to them, Crane and automobiles, Penton and energy, McGraw-Hill and aerospace, Annenberg, of course, and TV, and in technology, it was IDG. >> Yeah, he, like I said earlier, he really was a key figure in the development of this industry and it was, you know, one of the key things about that, a lot publications that came and went made the mistake of being platform or, you know, vertical market specific. And if that market changed, and it was inevitably gonna change in high tech, you were done. He never, you know, he never married himself to some specific technology cycle. His idea was the audience was not gonna change, the audience was gonna have to roll with this, so, the company, IDG, would produce publications that got that, you know, Computerworld was actually a little bit late to the PC game, but eventually got into it and we tracked the different cycles, you know, things in tech move in sine waves, they come and go. And Pat never was, you know, flustered by that, he could handle any kind of changes from the mainframes down to the smartphone when it came. And so, that kind of flexibility, and ability to adjust to markets, really was unprecedented in that particular part of the market. >> One of the other lessons in the book, I call it 'nation-building,' and Pat shared with you that, look, that you shared, actually, with your readers, if you wanna do it right, you've gotta be on the ground, you've gotta be there. And the China story is one that I didn't know about how Pat kind of talked his way into China, tell us, give us a little summary of that story. >> Sure, I love that story because it's so Pat. It was 1978, Pat was in Tokyo on a business trip, one of his many business trips, and he was gonna be flying to Moscow for a trade show. And he got a flight that was gonna make a stopover in Beijing, which in those days was called Peking, and was not open to Americans. There were no US and China diplomatic relations then. But Pat had it in mind that he was going to get off that plane in Beijing and see what he could see. So that meant that he had to leave the flight when it landed in Beijing and talk his way through the customs as they were in China at the time with folks in the, wherever, the Quonset hut that served for the airport, speaking no English, and him speaking no Chinese, he somehow convinced these folks to give him a day pass, 'cause he kept saying to them, "I'm only in transit, it's okay!" (laughs) Like, he wasn't coming, you know, to spy on them on them or anything. So here's this massive American businessman in his dark suit, and he somehow gets into downtown Beijing, which at the time was mostly bicycles, very few cars, there were camels walking down the street, they'd come with traders from Mongolia. The people were still wearing the drab outfits from the Mao era, and Pat just spent the whole day wandering around the city, just soaking it in. He was that kind of a world traveler. He loved different cultures, mostly eastern cultures, and he would pop his head into bookstores. And what he saw were people just clamoring to get their hands on anything, a newspaper, a magazine, and it just, it didn't take long for the light bulb to go on and said, this is a market we need to play in. >> He was fascinated with China, I, you know, as an employee and a business P&L manager, I never understood it, I said, you know, the per capita spending on IT in China was like a dollar, you know? >> Right. >> And I remember my lunch with him, my 10-year lunch, he said, "Yeah, but, you know, there's gonna be a huge opportunity there, and yeah, I don't know how we're gonna get the money out, maybe we'll buy a bunch of tea and ship it over, but I'm not worried about that." And, of course, he meets Hugo Shong, which is a huge player in the book, and the home run out of China was, of course, the venture capital, which he started before there was even a stock market, really, to exit in China. >> Right, yeah. No, he was really a visionary, I mean, that word gets tossed around maybe more than it should, but Pat was a bonafide visionary and he saw things in China that were developing that others didn't see, including, for example, his own board, who told him he was crazy because in 1980, he went back to China without telling them and within days he had a meeting with the ministry of technology and set up a joint venture, cost IDG $250,000, and six months later, the first issue of China Computerworld was being published and within a couple of years it was the biggest publication in China. He said, told me at some point that $250,0000 investment turned into $85 million and when he got home, that first trip, the board was furious, they said, "How can you do business with the commies? You're gonna ruin our brand!" And Pat said, "Just, you know, stick with me on this one, you're gonna see." And the venture capital story was just an offshoot, he saw the opportunity in the early '90s, that venture in China could in fact be a huge market, why not help build it? And that's what he did. >> What's your take on, so, IDG sold to, basically, Chinese investors. >> Yeah. >> It's kind of bittersweet, but in the same time, it's symbolic given Pat's love for China and the Chinese people. There's been a little bit of criticism about that, I know that the US government required IDC to spin out its supercomputer division because of concerns there. I'm always teasing Michael Dow that at the next IDG board meeting, those Lenovo numbers, they're gonna look kinda law. (laughs) But what are your, what's your, what are your thoughts on that, in terms of, you know, people criticize China in terms of IP protections, etc. What would Pat have said to that, do you think? >> You know, Pat made 130 trips to China in his life, that's, we calculated at some point that just the air time in planes would have been something like three and a half to four years of his life on planes going to China and back. I think Pat would, today, acknowledge, as he did then, that China has issues, there's not, you can't be that naive. He got that. But he also understood that these were people, at the end of the day, who were thirsty and hungry for information and that they were gonna be a player in the world economy at some point, and that it was crucial for IDG to be at the forefront of that, not just play later, but let's get in early, let's lead the parade. And I think that, you know, some part of him would have been okay with the sale of the company to this conglomerate there, called China Oceanwide. Clearly controversial, I mean, but once Pat died, everyone knew that the company was never gonna be the same with the leader who had been at the helm for 50 years, it was gonna be a tough transition for whoever took over. And I think, you know, it's hard to say, certainly there's criticism of things going on with China. China's gonna be the hot topic page one of the New York Times almost every single day for a long time to come. I think Pat would have said, this was appropriate given my love of China, the kind of return on investment he got from China, I think he would have been okay with it. >> Yeah, and to invoke the Ben Franklin maxim, "Trading partners seldom wage war," and so, you know, I think Pat would have probably looked at it that way, but, huge home run, I mean, I think he was early on into Baidu and Alibaba and Tencent and amazing story. I wanna talk about decentralization because that was always something that was just on our minds as employees of IDG, it was keep the corporate staff lean, have a flat organization, if you had eight, 10, 12 direct reports, that was okay, Pat really meant it when he said, "You're the CEO of your own business!" Whether that business was, you know, IDC, big company, or a manager at IDC, where you might have, you know, done tens of millions of dollars, but you felt like a CEO, you were encouraged to try new things, you were encouraged to fail, and fail fast. Their arch nemesis of IDG was Ziff Davis, they were a command and control, sort of Bill Ziff, CMP to a certain extent was kind of the same way out of Manhasset, totally different philosophies and I think Pat never, ever even came close to wavering from that decentralization philosophy, did he? >> No, no, I mean, I think that the story that he told me that I found fascinating was, he didn't have an epiphany that decentralization would be the mechanism for success, it was more that he had started traveling, and when he'd come back to his office, the memos and requests and papers to sign were stacked up two feet high. And he realized that he was holding up the company because he wasn't there to do this and that at some point, he couldn't do it all, it was gonna be too big for that, and that's when the light came on and said this decentralization concept really makes sense for us, if we're gonna be an international company, which clearly was his mission from the beginning, we have to say the people on the ground in those markets are the people who are gonna make the decisions because we can't make 'em from Boston. And I talked to many people who, were, you know, did a trip to Europe, met the folks in London, met the folks in Munich, and they said to a person, you know, it was so ahead of its time, today it just seems obvious, but in the 1960s, early '70s, it was really not a, you know, a regular leadership tenet in most companies. The command and control that you talked about was the way that you did business. >> And, you know, they both worked, but, you know, from a cultural standpoint, clearly IDG and IDC have had staying power, and he had the three-quarter rule, you talked about it in your book, if you missed your numbers three quarters in a row, you were in trouble. >> Right. >> You know, one quarter, hey, let's talk, two quarters, we maybe make some changes, three quarters, you're gone. >> Right. >> And so, as I said, if you were makin' your numbers, you had wide latitude. One of the things you didn't have latitude on was I'll call it 'pay to play,' you know, crossing that line between editorial and advertising. And Pat would, I remember I was at a meeting one time, I'm sorry to tell these stories, but-- >> That's okay. (laughs) >> But we were at an offsite meeting at a woods meeting and, you know, they give you a exercise, go off and tell us what the customer wants. Bill Laberis, who's the editor-in-chief at Computerworld at the time, said, "Who's the customer?" And Pat said, "That's a great question! To the publisher, it's the advertiser. To you, Bill, and the editorial staff, it's the reader. And both are equally important." And Pat would never allow the editorial to be compromised by the advertiser. >> Yeah, no, he, there was a clear barrier between church and state in that company and he, you know, consistently backed editorial on that issue because, you know, keep in mind when we started then, and I was, you know, a journalist hoping to, you know, change the world, the trade press then was considered, like, a little below the mainstream business press. The trade press had a reputation for being a little too cozy with the advertisers, so, and Pat said early on, "We can't do that, because everything we have, our product is built, the brand is built on integrity. And if the reader doesn't believe that what we're reporting is actually true and factual and unbiased, we're gonna lose to the advertisers in the long run anyway." So he was clear that that had to be the case and time and again, there would be conflict that would come up, it was just, as you just described it, the publishers, the sales guys, they wanted to bring in money, and if it, you know, occasionally, hey, we could nudge the editor of this particular publication, "Take it a little bit easier on this vendor because they're gonna advertise big with us," Pat just would always back the editor and say, "That's not gonna happen." And it caused, you know, friction for sure, but he was unwavering in his support. >> Well, it's interesting because, you know, Macworld, I think, is an interesting case study because there were sort of some backroom dealings and Pat maneuvered to be able to get the Macworld, you know, brand, the license for that. >> Right. >> But it caused friction between Steve Jobs and the writers of Macworld, they would write something that Steve Jobs, who was a control freak, couldn't control! >> Yeah. (laughs) >> And he regretted giving IDG the license. >> Yeah, yeah, he once said that was the worst decision he ever made was to give the license to Pat to, you know, Macworlld was published on the day that Mac was introduced in 1984, that was the deal that they had and it was, what Jobs forgot was how important it was to the development of that product to have a whole magazine devoted to it on day one, and a really good magazine that, you know, a lot of people still lament the glory days of Macworld. But yeah, he was, he and Steve Jobs did not get along, and I think that almost says a lot more about Jobs because Pat pretty much got along with everybody. >> That church and state dynamic seems to be changing, across the industry, I mean, in tech journalism, there aren't any more tech journalists in the United States, I mean, I'm overstating that, but there are far fewer than there were when we were at IDG. You're seeing all kinds of publications and media companies struggling, you know, Kara Swisher, who's the greatest journalist, and Walt Mossberg, in the tech industry, try to make it, you know, on their own, and they couldn't. So, those lines are somewhat blurring, not that Kara Swisher is blurring those lines, she's, you know, I think, very, very solid in that regard, but it seems like the business model is changing. As an observer of the markets, what do you think's happening in the publishing world? >> Well, I, you know, as a journalist, I'm sort of aghast at what's goin' on these days, a lot of my, I've been around a long time, and seeing former colleagues who are no longer in journalism because the jobs just started drying up is, it's a scary prospect, you know, unlike being the enemy of the people, the first amendment is pretty important to the future of the democracy, so to see these, you know, cutbacks and newspapers going out of business is difficult. At the same time, the internet was inevitable and it was going to change that dynamic dramatically, so how does that play out? Well, the problem is, anybody can post anything they want on social media and call it news, and the challenge is to maintain some level of integrity in the kind of reporting that you do, and it's more important now than ever, so I think that, you know, somebody like Pat would be an important figure if he was still around, in trying to keep that going. >> Well, Facebook and Google have cut the heart out of, you know, a lot of the business models of many media companies, and you're seeing sort of a pendulum swing back to nonprofits, which, I understand, speaking of folks back in the mid to early 1900s, nonprofits were the way in which, you know, journalism got funded, you know, maybe it's billionaires buying things like the Washington Post that help fund it, but clearly the model's shifting and it's somewhat unclear, you know, what's happening there. I wanted to talk about another lesson, which, Pat was the head cheerleader. So, I remember, it was kind of just after we started, the Computerworld's 20th anniversary, and they hired the marching band and they walked Pat and Mary Dolaher walked from 5 Speen Street, you know, IDG headquarters, they walked to Computerworld, which was up Old, I guess Old Connecticut Path, or maybe it was-- >> It was actually on Route 30-- >> Route 30 at the time, yeah. And Pat was dressed up as the drum major and Mary as well, (laughs) and he would do crazy things like that, he'd jump out of a plane with IDG is number one again, he'd post a, you know, a flag in Antarctica, IDG is number one again! It was just a, it was an amazing dynamic that he had, always cheering people on. >> Yeah, he was, he was, when he called himself the CEO, the Chief Encouragement Officer, you mentioned earlier the Good News notes. Everyone who worked there, at some point received this 8x10" piece of paper with a rainbow logo on it and it said, "Good News!" And there was a personal note from Pat McGovern, out of the blue, totally unexpected, to thank you and congratulate you on some bit of work, whatever it was, if you were a reporter, some article you wrote, if you were a sales guy, a sale that you made, and people all over the world would get these from him and put them up in their cubicles because it was like a badge of honor to have them, and people, I still have 'em, (laughs) you know, in a folder somewhere. And he was just unrelenting in supporting the people who worked there, and it was, the impact of that is something you can't put a price tag on, it's just, it stays with people for all their lives, people who have left there and gone on to four or five different jobs always think fondly back to the days at IDG and having, knowing that the CEO had your back in that manner. >> The legend of, and the legacy of Patrick J. McGovern is not just in IDG and IDC, which you were interested in in your book, I mean, you weren't at IDC, I was, and I was started when I saw the sort of downturn and then now it's very, very successful company, you know, whatever, $3-400 million, throwin' off a lot of profits, just to decide, I worked for every single CEO at IDC with the exception of Pat McGovern, and now, Kirk Campbell, the current CEO, is moving on Crawford del Prete's moving into the role of president, it's just a matter of time before he gets CEO, so I will, and I hired Crawford-- >> Oh, you did? (laughs) >> So, I've worked for and/or hired every CEO of IDC except for Pat McGovern, so, but, the legacy goes beyond IDG and IDC, great brands. The McGovern Brain Institute, 350 million, is that right? >> That's right. >> He dedicated to studying, you know, the human brain, he and Lore, very much involved. >> Yup. >> Typical of Pat, he wasn't just, "Hey, here's the check," and disappear. He was goin' in, "Hey, I have some ideas"-- >> Oh yeah. >> Talk about that a little. >> Yeah, well, this was a guy who spent his whole life fascinated by the human brain and the impact technology would have on the human brain, so when he had enough money, he and Lore, in 2000, gave a $350 million gift to MIT to create the McGovern Institute for Brain Research. At the time, the largest academic gift ever given to any university. And, as you said, Pat wasn't a guy who was gonna write a check and leave and wave goodbye. Pat was involved from day one. He and Lore would come and sit in day-long seminars listening to researchers talk about about the most esoteric research going on, and he would take notes, and he wasn't a brain scientist, but he wanted to know more, and he would talk to researchers, he would send Good News notes to them, just like he did with IDG, and it had same impact. People said, "This guy is a serious supporter here, he's not just showin' up with a checkbook." Bob Desimone, who's the director of the Brain Institute, just marveled at this guy's energy level, that he would come in and for days, just sit there and listen and take it all in. And it just, it was an indicator of what kind of person he was, this insatiable curiosity to learn more and more about the world. And he wanted his legacy to be this intersection of technology and brain research, he felt that this institute could cure all sorts of brain-related diseases, Alzheimer's, Parkinson's, etc. And it would then just make a better future for mankind, and as corny as that might sound, that was really the motivator for Pat McGovern. >> Well, it's funny that you mention the word corny, 'cause a lot of people saw Pat as somewhat corny, but, as you got to know him, you're like, wow, he really means this, he loves his company, the company was his extended family. When Pat met his untimely demise, we held a crowd chat, crowdchat.net/thankspat, and there's a voting mechanism in there, and the number one vote was from Paul Gillen, who posted, "Leo Durocher said that nice guys finish last, Pat McGovern proved that wrong." >> Yeah. >> And I think that's very true and, again, awesome legacy. What number book is this for you? You've written a lot of books. >> This is number 13. >> 13, well, congratulations, lucky 13. >> Thank you. >> The book is Fast Forward-- >> Future Forward. >> I'm sorry, Future Forward! (laughs) Future Forward by Glenn Rifkin. Check out, there's a link in the YouTube down below, check that out and there's some additional information there. Glenn, congratulations on getting the book done, and thanks so much for-- >> Thank you for having me, this is great, really enjoyed it. It's always good to chat with another former IDGer who gets it. (laughs) >> Brought back a lot of memories, so, again, thanks for writing the book. All right, thanks for watching, everybody, we'll see you next time. This is Dave Vellante. You're watchin' theCube. (electronic music)

>> What? Welcome to a special keep conversation here in Palo Alto. Shot for host of the Cube. The Palo Alto Studios here in Palo Alto. Where here With Adam Casella, CEO and co founder of Snap Route and Glenn Sullivan, Cofounder. Snap. Right, guys, Good to see you. Thanks for coming on. So, you guys are a hot startup launching you guys? Former apple engineers, running infrastructure, I would say large scale an apple, >> just a little bit >> global nature. Tell the story. What? How did you guys start the company? We did it all come from the apple. A lot of motivation to see a lot there. You seeing huge trends? You'd probably building your own stuff. What was that? What was the story? >> So, yeah, basically way. We were running a large external stuff at Apple. So think of you know, anything you would use his user, Siri maps, iTunes, icloud, those air, the networks that Adam and I were responsible for keeping up, keeping stable on DH. You know, there was a lot of growth. So this is pretty twenty fifteen. We started snapping on August twenty fifteen, so it's a big growth period for, you know, icloud. Big growth period for iTunes. Lots of users, lots of demand. Sort of lots of building infrastructure in sort of a firefighting mode on DH. One of the things that occurred is that we needed to move to more of, you know, infrastructure kind of building out as you need it for capacity. If you start talking to the folks up the road, you know, with Facebook and Google and Microsoft and all those folks, you realize that you have to kind of build it, and then they will come. You can't really always be reactionary and building these kind of bespoke artisanal networks, right? So him and I had to come at it from both a architectural apology network kind of network engineering, geeky kind of level, and also from an automation orchestration. Visibility standpoint. So we pretty much had to do a Nen tire reimagining of what we were building as we were going to build these new networks to make sure we could could anticipate capacity and deploy things before you know it was necessary. >> Yeah, and make sure that the network is agile, flexible enough to respond to those needs, and change isn't required. >> You mentioned. The surge came around time for twenty, twelve, twenty, thirteen, different exactly apples been around for a while, so they had. They were buying boxes and start racking and stacking for years. So they have applications probably going back a decade, of course. So as Apple started to really, really grow Icloud and the iPhone seven, you still got legacy. So how did you guys constantly reshaped the network without breaking it with some of the things that you guys saw? That was successful because it's kind of a case study of, you know, you know, the next level without breaking >> anything. Yeah, did when migration was interesting, uh, essentially into doing it. She start attacking it for the legacy environments as Iraq. Iraq process, right? You gotta figure out what applications better most easily be able to move and start with the low hanging fruit first so you could start proving out the concept that you're talking about. You try with the hardest aspect or the Horace Apt to move. You're going to get it with a lot of road block. If my you might actually fail potentially and you won't get what you need where you need to go if you took, took some low hanging fruit applications that can easily migrate between, you know, an old environment and new environment. >> It's not dissimilar to environments where things are acquisition heavy, like we've got some friends at some other Silicon Valley companies that are very active. You know, acquisition heavy, right? It's It's a company that's one name on the outside, but it's twenty thirty different Cos on the inside, and what they typically end up doing is they end up treating each one of those as islands of customers, and they build out a core infrastructure, and they treat themselves more like an ice pick. So if you if you Khun, meld your environment where you're more like a service provider and you're different legacy applications and new applications arm or you know customers, then you're going to end up in a better situation and that we did a little bit of that, you know, at Apple, where they have, you know, really, really core service provider, head the type. You know, if a structure with all of these different customers hanging >> off his isolation options there. But also integration, probably smoother. If you think it was a service provider. >> DeMarcus solid right and clear. >> So talk about the nature you got cloud experts. I'll see infrastructure experts. You're really in the The Deep Dev ops movement as it goes kind of multi and agree because he got storage, networking and compute the holy trinity of infrastructure kind. All changing on being reimagined. Storage isn't going away. More data is being stored. Networks need to be programmable on DH, Secure and Computers unlimited. Now it's naming all kinds of innovation. So you're seeing companies, whether it's the department defense with the Jed I contract trying to. You're the best architecture on enterprise that might have a lot of legacy trying to re imagine the question of what to do around multi cloud and data center relationships. What's your perspective on this phenomenon? OK, we have tohave scale, so we have a little bit on Prem or a lot of fun. Prem, We'll have cloud and Amazon maybe cloud over Microsoft, so it's really gonna be multiple clouds. But is it simply the answer of multiple clouds just for the sake of being multi cloud? Or is there a reason for Multi Cloud is reason for one cloud. You sure? Your perspective on the >> sure it's it it's the thought might be that it's kind of most important have one overarching strategy that you adapt to everything, and that's sort of true, right? We'd say, Okay, well, we're going to standardize something like you, Bernetti. So we're gonna have one Cuban, these cluster and that Cubans cluster is going to run in desert. It's got running. Google is going to run in, you know, on Prem and all that. It's actually less important that you have one fabric or one cluster, one unified way to manage things. What's more important is that you standardize on a tool set and you standardize on a methodology. And so you say, Okay, I need to have an orchestration later. Find that's communities. You have a run time environment for my container ization. Sure, that's Dr or whatever other solutions you wantto have. And then you have a P structures that used to program these things. It's much more important that all those things they're standardized that then they're unified, right? You say I have Cooper Natives control, and I'm gonna control it the same way, whether it's a desert, whether it's in Google Cloud or whether or not it's on Prem. That's the more important part. Rather than say, I have one big thing and I try to manage so to your point, >> by having that control point that's standard with all the guys allows for. The micro services camp allows for all these new agile and capabilities. Then it becomes the cloud for the job. Things are exactly Office three sixty five. Why not use Azure? >> Yeah, I mean, that's the whole problem with doing like technology. Pick technology sake. Technology doesn't solve problems. Old is maybe a, you know, piece technologies to peace technology. And I think it's why you look at like, cloud native communities and doctor and and you know why Dr initially had a lot more struggle and widely more successful after you, Seymour, that cloud that have come out there because cloud native put a process around how you could go ahead and ensure these things. We deployed in a way that was easily managed, right? You have C I. D for I want my container. But out there, I have a way to manage it with communities in this particular pipeline and have a way to get it deployed. Without that structure, you're going to be just doing technology for technology sake. >> Yeah, and this is modernizing, too. So it's a great point about the control point. I want to just take it the next level, which is, you know, back when I was breaking into the business, the word multi vendor was a word that everyone tossed around every multi vendor. Why we need choice choices good. While choice down streams always, it was always something. There's an option. More optionality, less of a reality, so obvious is good. No one wants the vendor locking unless you It's affordable and spine, right? So intel chips a lock in, but no one ever cares, processes stuff and moves on. Um, so the notion of multi vendor multi cloud How do you guys think about that? As you look at the architectural changes of a modern compute, modern stories modern network facility, >> I think it's really important. Tio, go back to what you said before about office three sixty five, right? Like why would you run that? Other places other than deserve rights, got all the tools. Lt's. It's really, really critical that you don't allow yourself to get boxed into a corner where you're going to the lowest common denominator across all the platforms, right? So so when you're looking at multi cloud or hybrid cloud solution, use what's best for what you're doing. But make sure that you've got your two or three points that you won't waver on right like communities like AP Integration like whatever service abstraction layers that you want right? Focus on those, but then be flexible to allow yourself to put the workloads where they make sense. And having mobile workloads is the whole point to going into the Qatar having a multi cloud strategy anyway. Workload mobility is key >> workloads and the apse of Super Port. You mentioned earlier about ass moving around, and that's the reality, correct. If that becomes the reality and is the norm than the architecture has to wrap around it, how did you advise and how do you view that of unfolding? Because if data becomes now a very key part of a workload data, considerable clouds late and see comes. And now here you go, backto Leighton Sea and laws of physics. So I just start thinking about the network and the realities of moving things around. What do you guys see as a A so directionally correct path for that? >> Sure. So I kind of see if you look if you break down, OK? You have storage, You have network. You have, You know, applications, right? And I heard something that from a while ago actually agree with that. I says, you know, Dad is the new soil, right? And I look at that, OK, That that is new soil. Then guess what network is the water and the applications air seats. And if you have missing one of those, you're not going to end up with a with a, you know, a growing plants. And so if you don't have the construct of having all these things managed in a way that you could actually keep track of all of them and make them work in chorus, you're going to end up where e Yeah, I could move my application to, you know, from point A to point B. But now it's failed. Haven't they? Don't have connectivity. I don't have storage. Or I can go out there and I have storage and, you know, no connectivity or kind. Give me and, you know, missing one. Those competed on there and you don't end up with a fully functioning you know, environment that allows you >> so. The interplay between stories, networking and compute has to be always tightly managed or controlled to be flexible, to manage whatever situation when I was growing >> and you gotta have the metadata, right, like, you've got to be able to get this stuff out of the network. That's why that's why what we're doing it's not proud is so critical for us is because you need to have the data presented in a way, using the telemetry tools of choice that give you the information to be able to move the workloads appropriately. The network can't be a black box, just like in the in the storage side. This storage stuff can't be a black box, either, right? You have to have the data so that you could place the workload is appropriately >> okay. What's your guy's thesis for a snapper out when you guys started the company? What was the the guiding principle or the core thesis? And what core problem did you solve? So answer the question. Core problem. We solve his blank. What is that? >> So I think the core problem we solve is getting applications deployed faster than they ever have been right And having making, doing, making sure it's not a secure way in an efficient way. Operationally mean those air, basically, what the tenants of what we're trying to solve a what we're going for. And, uh the reason for is that today the network is withholding back the business from being able to employ their applications faster, whether it be in a polo sight, whether it be local on data center or whether being, you know, in the cloud from, you know, their perspective connectivity between their local, on prep stuff on whatever might be in, you know, eight of us is ordered >> Google and enabling that happened in seamlessly so that the network is not in the way or >> yeah. So if you could now see what's happened on the network and now you can have control over that aspect of it, you do it in a way. It's familiar to people who are deploying those applications. They now have that ability to place those work clothes intelligently and making sure that they can have the configuration of activity that they need for those applications. >> Okay, so I say I said, You guys, Hey, I'm solvent. Assault, sold. I love this. What do I do next? How doe I engage with you guys, Do I buy software? So I loaded Bokkelen infrastructure. What's the What's the snap route solution? >> So so the first part of the discussions, we talk about hardware. Obviously, we don't make our own hardware. That's the whole point of this allegation. Is that you by the harbor from somebody else? Andi, you buy the software from us, so there's a lot of times of the initial engagements. There's some education that goes on about this is what this aggregation means, and it's very, very similar to what we saw in the computer world, right? You had your classic, you know, environments where people were buying. You know, big iron from HP and Dell and IBM and Sun and everybody else, right? But now they can get it from, you know, ziti and kwon and sort of micro and and whoever else and they wouldn't They would really think of buying software from those same companies. Maybe some management software, but you're not going to buy your licks version from the same people that you're buying your harbor from. So once we explain and kind of educate on that process and some folks that are already learning this, the big cloud providers already figuring this out, then it's a matter of, you know, here's the software solution and here's howto >> be a threat to civilians getting what? My plugging into my connecting to certain systems, how would I just deploy? It will take me through the use case of installing it. What is it? Connect to >> shirt. So you have your white box top Iraq device or, you know, switching my on there. You load our code on there. We used only to initially deploy the stuff on there on. Then you can go. You can go ahead and load all the containers on. They're using things like helm and pulling it from harbor. Whether that be exciting, if you have locally or internally or you Khun bundling altogether and loaded in one particular image and then you can start, you know, interacting with that cabinet is a P I. To go ahead and sort of computing device. Additionally, we'll make sure this is clear to people who are, you know, networking guys going on. Cooper. Netease. God, what is all this? I never heard of this stuff. We supply a full fledged CIA, lied. It looks and feels just like you want a regular network device toe act as a bridge from what you do, those guys are comfortable with today to where the future is going to be a and it sits on top of that same apia. >> So network as we're comfortable with this correct that's going >> and they get to do stuff using cloud native tools without worrying about, you know, understanding micro services or continue ization. They now have the ability to pull contenders off, put new containers on in a way that they would just normally use. Is he alive? >> I want to get you guys thoughts on a trend that we've been reporting on and kind of coming on the Cube. And I certainly have been a lot from past couple years past year. Particular covering this cloud native since the C in C S Koo coupon was starting, were there when that kind of started. Developers, we know that world develops a scene and agile, blah, blah, blah, All that good stuff. Networking guys used to be the keys, have keys thinking they were gods. You're networking engineer. Oh, yeah, I'm the guy saying No, All the time I'm in charge. Come through me. But now the world's flipped around. Applications need the network to do what it wants yet. Right. So you start to see program ability around networks. Let's go live. We saw the trend. The trend there is definite there. Developer programs growing really, really fast. He started. See networking folks turned into developers. So youjust smart ones do. And the networking concepts around provisioning is that you see service measures on top of you. Burnett. He's hot. So you start to see the network. Parent Policy based this policy based that program ability Automation. It's kind of in the wheelhouse of a network person. Yeah, your guys. Thoughts on the evolution of the developer, The network developer. Is it really? Is it hyped up? Is that and where's ago? So >> we're going back to where we're networking originated from right. Developers started networking. I mean, let's not forget that right. It wasn't done by some guy who says I have a sea lion. I'm going now that work's work. Know someone had to write the code. Someone have deployed out there. But eventually you got to those guys where they went to particular vendors and those systems became or closed. And they weren't able to go ahead and have that open ecosystem that we, you know, has been built on the compute side. So that's kind of, um it does say, or, you know, hindered those particular that industry from growing, right. Never going. She's been hindered by this. We have been able to do an open ecosystem to get that operational innovation in there. So as we've moved on further and now as we get that, you know, those people saying no. Hey, you can't do anything. No, no, no. We have the keys to the castle. We're not gonna let you through here. The devil's guys, we're going when we still need to. The player applications are business still needs to move forward, So we're going to go around. And you could see that with some of the early ESPN solutions going on there says, you know what? I figure like that we just exist. Okay. Tunnel we're going to go over you. That day is coming to an end. But we're not going to go do that long termers air going on here because that efficiency there, the overhead there is really, really high. So as we start going on further, we're good. I have to pull back in tow. When we originally started with networking where you have people will use that open ecosystem and develop things on there and start programming the networks to match what's happened with the applications. So I see it. Something just >> clicked in your thoughts. >> Yes. So the smart network engineers, the guys and girls out there that want to be progressive and, you know, really adapt themselves are going to recognize that their value add isn't in being a SEAL I jockey and cutting and pasting from their playbooks in their method. They're forty eight page method of procedures that they've written for how to upgrade this chassis. Right. Um, your your expertise is an operational, you know, run time. Your your expertise is an operational best practice, right? So you need to just translate that. Lookit communities, looking operators, right, operators, existing communities to bake in operational intelligence and best practices into a bundle deployment, Right? So translate that. Right? So what's the best way to take this device out of service and do an upgrade? It's us step. It's a method of procedures translating that new acumen and his operator to put that in your communities bundle Senate in your image. You're good to go like this is. The translation has happened there. There is an interim step right. You know, our friends over at answerable are friends and puppet, insult and chef and all. They've got different ways to control. You know, traditional see allies using, you know, very, very kind of screen scraping, pushing the commands down and verifying getting output in changing that, it's possible to do it that way. It's just really painful. So what we're saying is, why don't you just do it? Natively use the tool like an operator and then put your intelligence into design operational intelligence layout like do that level instead of, you know, cutting and pasting >> for so developers are it's all developers. Now it's emerged together. Now you have open >> infrastructure is code right? >> Infrastructures code? Yeah, everything >> Israel programmer, I mean, but you can't you can't and I want to make sure it's already clear to include was saying that you can't get away from the guys who run networks and what they've seen experienced that they've had so but they need to now take that to his point and making it something that you actually can develop in code against and actually make into a process that can be done over and over again. Not just words on paper. >> That's what I think they were. Developer angles. So really, it's about translating operational efficiencies into the network into code because to move APS around do kind of dynamic provisioning and containing all the services that are coming online. >> And you can only do that if you've actually taking a look at what how the network operating systems architected and adopt a new approach of doing it because the legacy, ways of doing it don't work here >> and getting an operation from like what you guys were approached. Your strategy and thesis is having OS baked as close to the network as possible for the most flexible on high performance. Nice thing. Secure abstraction, layers, first proxies and >> simple it down >> with that great guys. Thanks. And good luck on eventually keep will be following you. Thanks for the conversation. Thank you for your conversation here in Palo Alto. I'm John for you're talking networking cloud native with snap route. Launching a new operating system for networks for cloud native. I'm John Forget. Thanks for watching.