>> From San Francisco, it's theCUBE. Covering Conga Connect West 2018. Brought to you by Conga. >> Hey, welcome back. Get ready, Jeff Frick with theCUBE. We're in downtown San Francisco. It's Salesforce, Dreamforce. They're telling me it's 170,000 people which I find hard to believe but I'm not out there walking around in the traffic or stuck in an Uber. Hopefully you aren't either. We're excited, we're at the Conga Connect West of it. Here at the Thirsty Bear, they're giving out free drinks, free entertainment, free food. Stop on by, just a couple steps over from Moscone South and they'll be here for all three days. So we're excited to be here, too. First Salesforce, we've got some great guests lined up for you today. Talk about the whole life cycle of this cash-to-quote, or quote-to-cash, excuse me. To Sharmon Moss first, she is the Practice Lead at ATG for CLM. Sharmon, great to see you. >> It's great to be with you, Jeff. >> Absolutely, and with her is Bob Grewal. He is VP of Enterprise Contract Sales for Conga. Bob, great to see you. >> You as well. Glad that we are here. >> So, what an event. Just before we jump into it, you guys said you did this last year, you had such a great turnout, you had kind of up the investment. >> Yeah, so last year, we did a phenomenal amount of events, we wanted to provide our customers opportunity to come in and have a place where they can meet with us, socialize, meet our technical folks but at the same time, enjoy themselves and find a place to relax and work. We do a disco party, a silent disco party last year, that was phenomenal and over-subscribed so this year we ended up having to put a tent in the back and maybe even a bigger investment so our people and partners can come in here and have a great place work, meet and greet, and learn. >> Great. So Sharmon here, she is a Practice Lead out in the field with all the customers. >> It's true. >> So we talk a lot, we go to a lot of tech events at theCUBE and we always talk about people processing tech. And more often than not, the tech is the easiest part. >> It's true. >> To really make this stuff work, so give us kind of what you see in the field, kind of the state of the market in contract management. >> So what we're seeing at ATG, we are a technology management consulting firm and what we've seen recently is, you know, we had the whole optimization of CPQ over the last four or five years and right now, we're really seeing the digitalization of contract management really take a front place in what companies are trying to automate. And that's why we're so excited to work with the team at Conga because our synergies and the way we work together and our cultures are so similar that we're really able to provide just a great compliment to our customers. >> So when you say automating contract management, the first thing the probably goes into most people's heads, at least the first time I heard it, was no way, there's so much nuance, there's so much you know, legalese and maybe negotiated terms and settlements in a contract. How do you possibly automate that beyond, which is state-of-the-art ten years ago, where is it and when is it due? So what are some of the things that people, you know, what can you do today, what does the future hold, what is the state-of-the-art in contract management? >> Well, I think you nailed it on both points. So it's not just about the technology and us as the technology provider would probably argue it's not the easiest part of the solution. But I think it's the combination and the reason why ATG partnership with Conga makes so much sense for us, is that, to capture the digital transformation, or the contract automation value, we really got to do two things. One, you got to get the right technology which Conga provides today. And then you got to have the partner to work with you where we've partnered with ATG to really look at your business processes and as you do that, this is a great opportunity to review how you're doing it today, optimize that, because it's not just about going digital with it, it's really about making sure that we have the right approval process. And then you say, what's possible today? Well, today, CLM has been around for a long time, right, and we think that it's hit a tipping point where it's not just about creating workflows and approval processes. In fact, in many cases, those are table stakes. We seem to do it better, we've designed it so it's easier to use, easier to manage, but the piece that we're seeing as really a focus on the datasite. How do we make that data that lives in those contracts valuable to the organization? So when you're engaging with your customers, now you have a better engagement strategy based on real data, what's changes, what being utilized in your contract. So for us, a big part of it is that we can do the workloads, we can do the approval processes, but where we're really going to differentiate ourselves is that data and making sure that we can make that work, to optimize revenue, to mitigate risk but most importantly, to be able to understand what's happening in the contract world, what you're negotiating so we can make your engagements in the future easier and faster. >> Right, right. So just curious, Sharmon, because you negotiate the contract, you go through all the pain, you know, and you finally get it signed but then generally it would just go in a drawer, or somebody's hard drive on a laptop and let's just hope they're working for us in a year from now, we didn't give them the laptop. But how does that get baked A, into making sure, there was an example earlier, that the right payment terms get into the ERP system and then also, going forward, how does that not just become a stale document that's just sitting in a repository but how do we extract the value to your point to get more benefit from that tough negotiated piece of paper that we worked so hard on. >> Right, and I think that's where we're seeing the change now. Because, historically, it was our legal teams that wanted to automate things, to make their lives simpler, and now we're seeing we need not just to support the legal teams with this information, we need to support reporting, we need to support renewals, we need to support amendments and we need those data elements that are associated. So like you said, the payment terms or the length of the term of a specific service, we needed to datatize that, put that in a system where people can search for it, discover it. So many cases, even like companies with MNA, do due diligence based on this content, right? It can't just be a piece of paper in a box somewhere anymore. It needs to be out there and that's what the future of contract management offers. We are, at this point, in the emergence of this technology where customers are starting to realize the value in that digitalization. >> Go ahead. >> If that helps. >> I was just going to say that the other thing is happening too, is the nature of business relationships is changing so much with new revenue models, right. Subscription models, you know, and kind of prorated and how do you work in your discount structure. It's so much more complicated and so much variety in the ways people are engaging with their customers. I would imagine most of the time that just kind of happens in that contract is still in that guy's laptop that we don't know where it is and we just kind of execute those things. So how is that getting surfaced and kind of bait back so that it's more of a closed loop process? >> Yeah, so a couple of things and we can talk about the processes as Sharmon walking us through kind of hey, we can automate this, we can do this. There's a couple of things in the technology side that Conga's really done and when we think about that, one is a True-up. So when we built this on the Salesforce platform, one of the things that we really did was how do we take what's been in that contract, so simple thing like the terms for payment change from 30 days to 45. Well today or traditionally, people would go and have to update that manually. Well we created a technology called True-up where you're able identify all those key factors, these key data points, and automatically have that update within your Salesforce instance. A challenge for one of our customers is renewals, right? Often we have standard policies of we're going to have to notice customers 60 days in advance of their renewal. Well sometimes we have to negotiate that and sometimes it's 90 days or six months. We've made that really easy when those terms change, we have the ability to true those up and that actually will be reflected in Salesforce automatically. So without any human intervention, outside of approving the term that you've accepted it, it automatically uploads into Salesforce. >> So Truing-up, just to repeat what you said to make sure I understand, so it's basically taking a negotiated terms and the contract and making sure it's getting into the system of records, system of engagement. >> Exactly. >> So it's implemented. >> Yup. >> It's true and another factor within the integration of the Salesforce, is that you can make some of that negotiation happen upfront. So, if you're using CPQ solution for instance, you may negotiate the quote before it even gets to the contract and that can limit the amount of Truing-up we even have to do at the end. >> Right, right. >> And that's the other piece is that one of the things we've done is when it comes to just a cash to quote, we've built a product specifically designed for the cash-to-quote. We call it Conga Contracts Negotiator Edition. And what that really is designed of is, for those customers that have quotes that are going out, that are getting quantities in negotiated, maybe a price propose change, maybe a different terms that are already listed on that quote, we've provided a technology that basically can support that so when the customer comes back with those changes, it also can be Trued-up with Salesforce without having to go in and go back and rework the quote and redo all those quantities. We've made that sync in that True-up capability available even for that quote thing. So very complimentary to the CPQ practice that ATG has today. >> Right. Just curious, Sharmon, from some of your experience with customers. What is the hardest thing that people think is going to be easy and then what's the low-hanging fruit that people go "oh my goodness, this is phenomenal," that maybe is not that hard but the value delivery is consistently over the top for people that are kind of in this journey? >> The thing that I think companies often struggle to do implement into their vision here, is that when you are buying a piece of technology to solve a problem, is that, that piece of technology on its own is not going to solve your problem. You have to take a look at the processes that you use and figure out how to optimize those along with the tools, these awesome tools, that you get with the technology and not pave your cart path. So don't keep doing the same things you've been doing for 20 years and just make them automated. Take advantage of this tool that you have. I think what people underestimate how easy it is, is all the things that they have available to them with this automation. The approval process that can be automated. I don't have to email four people and get their responses back to say "yeah, those changes are OK". That I can build that approval process, that I can build in the acceptance of changes to clauses. My legal department can say "I'll accept this as governing law or that as governing law" and give my salespeople the opportunity to do that without involving legal. And people often don't understand how easy that can be. >> Right. Fewer emails? That's got to be an easy case. >> Yeah, I wish it was just that simple but absolutely right, we're eliminating everything that lives outside of it and getting control. I mean, I couldn't agree more. Customers sometimes think the technology is going to solve the problem and it's really not just the technology when it comes to CLM. It's about the technology and the process and I think with the processes we've done and the practices we've developed, that's really helping customers get greater at adoption, greater rate of ROI, really optimize that so that they're getting a higher value. And time to evaluate what the process we use when they're looking at CLM. >> It's almost a waste of money if you don't go the extra mile for the people in the process, to really take advantage of the investment. Well Bob, Sharmon, thanks for taking a few minutes of your day and Bob, specifically, congrats on this great event and thank you for having us. >> Yeah, thank you for joining us as well and thank you for the time. >> Thank you. >> All right, he's Bob, she's Sharmon, I'm Jeff. You're watching theCUBE. We're at Conga Connect West at the Thirsty Bear at Dreamforce, San Francisco. Thanks for watching.

>>Hi, Lisa Martin here with the cube. You're watching our coverage of Dell technologies world. The digital virtual experience. I've got two guests with me here today. We're going to be talking about the university of Piza and how it is leaning into all flash data lakes powered by Dell technologies. One of our alumni is back MERITO, Debbie, and the CTO of the university of PISA. Maricio welcome back to the cube. Thank you. Very excited to talk to you today. CAUTI Gosha is here as well. The director of product management at Dell technologies. Kaushik. Welcome to the cube. Thank you. So here we are at this virtual event again, Maricio you were last on the cube at VMworld a few months ago, the virtual experience as well, but talk to her audience a little bit before we dig into the technology and some of these demanding workloads that the university is utilizing. Talk to me a little bit about your role as CTO and about the university. >>So my role as CTO at university of PISA is, uh, uh, regarding the, uh, data center operations and, uh, scientific computing support for these, the main, uh, occupation that, uh, that, uh, yeah. Then they support the world, saw the technological choices that university of PISA is, uh, is doing, uh, during the latest, uh, two or three years. >>Talk to me about some, so this is a, in terms of students we're talking about 50,000 or so students 3000 faculty and the campus is distributed around the town of PISA, is that correct? Maricio >>Uh, the university of PISA is sort of a, uh, town campus in the sense that we have 20 departments that are, uh, located inside the immediate eval town, uh, but due to the choices, but university of peace, I S uh, the, uh, last, uh, uh, nineties, uh, we are, uh, owner of, uh, of a private fiber network connecting all our, uh, departments and allow the templates. And so we can use the town as a sort of white board to design, uh, uh, new services, a new kind of support for teaching. Uh, and, uh, and so, >>So you've really modernized the data infrastructure for the university that was founded in the middle ages. Talk to me now about some of the workloads and that are generating massive amounts of data, and then we'll get into what you're doing with Dell technologies. >>Oh, so the university of PISA as a, uh, quite old on HPC, traditional HPC. So we S we are supporting, uh, uh, the traditional workloads from, uh, um, CAE or engineering or chemistry or oil and gas simulations. Uh, of course it during, uh, uh, the pandemic year, last year, especially, uh, we have new, uh, kind of work you'll scan, uh, summer related, uh, to the, uh, fast movement of the HPC workload from let's say, traditional HPC to AI and machine learning. And those are the, um, request that you support a lot of remote activities coming from, uh, uh, uh, distance learning, uh, to remote ties, uh, uh, laboratories or stations or whatever, most elder in presence in the past. And so the impact either on the infrastructure or, and the specialty and the storage part was a significant. >>So you talked about utilizing the high performance computing environments for awhile and for scientific computing and things. I saw a case study that you guys have done with Dell, but then during the pandemic, the challenge and the use case of remote learning brought additional challenges to your environment from that perspective, how, how were you able to transfer your curriculum to online and enable the scientists, the physicists that oil and gas folks doing research to still access that data at the speed that they needed to, >>Uh, you know, for what you got, uh, uh, uh, distance learning? Of course. So we were, uh, based on the cloud services were not provided internally by Yas. So we lie, we based on Microsoft services, so Google services and so on, but what regards, uh, internal support, uh, scientific computing was completely, uh, remote dies either on support or experience, uh, because, uh, I can, uh, I, can I, uh, bring some, uh, some examples, uh, for example, um, laboratory activities, uh, we are, the access to the laboratories, uh, was the of them, uh, as much as possible. Uh, we design a special networker to connect all the and to give the researcher the possibility of accessing the data on visit special network. So as sort of a collector of data, uh, inside our, our university network, uh, you can imagine that the, uh, for example, was, was a key factor for us because utilization was, uh, uh, for us, uh, and flexible way to deliver new services, uh, in an easy way, uh, especially if you have to, uh, have systems for remote. So, as, as I told you before about the, uh, network, as well as a white board, but also the computer infrastructure, it was VM-ware visualization and treated as a, as a sort of what we were designing with services either, either for interactive services or especially for, uh, scientific computing. For example, we have an experience with it and a good polarization of HPC workload. We start agents >>Talk to me about the storage impact, because as we know, we talk about, you know, these very demanding, unstructured workloads, AI machine learning, and that can be, those are difficult for most storage systems to handle the radio. Talk to us about why you leaned into all flash with Dell technologies and talk to us a little bit about the technologies that you've implemented. >>So, uh, if I, if I have to think about our, our storage infrastructure before the pandemic, I have to think about Iceland because our HPC workloads Moss, uh, mainly based off, uh, Isilon, uh, as a storage infrastructure, uh, together with some, uh, final defense system, as you can imagine, we were deploying in-house, uh, duty independently, especially with the explosion of the AI, with them, uh, blueprint of the storage requests change the law because of what we have, uh, uh, deal dens. And in our case, it was an, I breathed the Isilon solution didn't fit so well for HB for AI. And this is why we, uh, start with the data migration. That was, it was not really migration, but the sort of integration of the power scaler or flash machine inside our, uh, environment, because then the power scale, all flesh and especially, uh, IO in the future, uh, the MVME support, uh, is a key factor for the storage. It just support, uh, we already have experience as some of the, uh, NBME, uh, possibilities, uh, on the power PowerMax so that we have here, uh, that we use part for VDI support, uh, but off, um, or fleshly is the minimum land and EME, uh, is what we need to. >>Gotcha. Talk to me about what Dell technologies has seen the uptick in the demand for this, uh, as Maricio said, they were using Isilon before adding in power scale. What are some of the changing demands that, that Dell technologies has seen and how does technologies like how our scale and the F 900 facilitate these organizations being able to rapidly change their environment so that they can utilize and extract the value from data? >>Yeah, no, absolutely. What occupational intelligence is an area that, uh, continues to amaze me. And, uh, personally I think the, the potential here is immense. Um, uh, as Maurizio said, right, um, the, the data sets, uh, with artificial intelligence, I have, uh, grown significantly and, and not only the data has become, um, uh, become larger the models, the AI models that, that we, that are used have become more complex. Uh, for example, uh, one of the studies suggests that, uh, the, uh, that for a modeling of, uh, natural language processing, um, uh, one of the fields in AI, uh, the number of parameters used, could exceed like about a trillion in, uh, in a few years, right? So almost a size of a human brain. So, so not only that means that there's a lot of fear mounted to be, uh, data, to be processed, but, uh, by, uh, the process stored in yesterday, uh, but probably has to be done in the same amount of Dinah's before, perhaps even a smaller amount of time, right? So a larger data theme time, or perhaps even a smaller amount of time. So, absolutely. I agree. I mean, those type of, for these types of workloads, you need a storage that gives you that high-performance access, but also being able to store the store, that data is economically. >>And how does Dell technologies deliver that? The ability to scale the economics what's unique and differentiated about power skill? >>Uh, so power scale is, is, is our all flash, uh, system it's, uh, it's, uh, it's bad users, dark techno does some of the same capabilities that, uh, Isilon, um, products use used to offer, uh, one of his fault system capabilities, some of the capabilities that Maurizio has used and loved in the past, some of those, some of those same capabilities are brought forward. Now on this spar scale platform, um, there are some changes, like for example, on new Parscale's platform supports Nvidia GPU direct, right? So for, uh, artificial intelligence, uh, workloads, you do need these GPU capable machines. And, uh, and, uh, Parscale supports that those, uh, high high-performance Jupiter rec machines, uh, through, through the different technologies that we offer. And, um, the Parscale F 900, which should, which we are going to launch very soon, um, um, is, is, is our best hype, highest performance all-flash and the most economic allowed slash uh, to date. So, um, so it is, um, it not only is our fastest, but also offers, uh, the most economic, uh, most economical way of storing the data. Um, so, so ideal far for these type of high-performance workloads, like AIML, deep learning and so on. Excellent. >>So talk to me about some of the results that the university is achieving so far. I did read a three X improvement in IO performance. You were able to get nearly a hundred percent of the curriculum online pretty quickly, but talk to me about some of the other impacts that Dell technologies has helping the university to achieve. >>Oh, we had, uh, we had an old, uh, in all the Dell customer, and if you, uh, give a Luca walk, we have that inside the insomnia, our data centers. Uh, we typically joking, we define them as a sort of, uh, Dell technologies supermarket in the sense that, uh, uh, degreed part of our, our servers storage environment comes from, uh, from that technology said several generations of, uh, uh, PowerEdge servers, uh, uh, power, my ex, uh, Isaac along, uh, powers, Gale power store. So we, uh, we are, uh, um, using a lot of, uh, uh, Dell technologies here, here, and of course, uh, um, in the past, uh, our traditional, uh, workloads were well supported by that technologies. And, uh, Dell technologies is, uh, uh, driving ourselves versus, uh, the, what we call the next generation workloads, uh, because we are, uh, uh, combining gas, uh, in, um, in the transition of, uh, um, uh, the next generation of computing there, but to be OPA who, uh, to ask here, and he was walked through our research of looking for, cause if I, if I have to, to, to, to give a look to what we are, uh, doing, uh, mostly here, healthcare workloads, uh, deep learning, uh, uh, data analysis, uh, uh, image analysis in C major extraction that everything have be supported, especially from, uh, the next next generation servers typically keep the, uh, with, with GPU's. >>This is why GPU activities is, is so important for answer, but also, uh, supported on the, on the, on the networking side. But because of that, the, the, the speed, the, and the, of the storage, and must be tired to the next generation networking. Uh, low-latency high-performance because at the end of the day, you have to, uh, to bring the data in storage and DP. Can you do it? Uh, so, uh, they're, uh, one of the low latency, uh, uh, I performance, if they're connected zones is also a side effect of these new work. And of course that the college is, is, is. >>I love how you described your data centers as a Dell technologies supermarket, maybe a different way of talking about a center of excellence question. I want to ask you about, I know that the university of PISA is SCOE for Dell. Talk to me about in the last couple of minutes we have here, what that entails and how Dell helps customers become a center of excellence. >>Yeah, so Dell, um, like talked about has a lot of the Dell Dell products, uh, today, and, and, and in fact, he mentioned about the pirate servers, the power scale F 900 is, is actually based on a forehead server. So, so you can see, so a lot of these technologies are sort of in the linked with each other, they talk to each other, they will work together. Um, and, and, and that sort of helps, helps customers manage the entire, uh, ecosystem lifecycle data, life cycle together, versus as piece parts, because we have solutions that solve all aspects of, of, of the, uh, of, of, uh, of our customer like Mauricio's needs. Right. So, um, so yeah, I'm glad Maurizio is, is leveraging Dell and, um, and I'm happy we are able to help help more issue or solve solve, because, uh, all his use cases, uh, and UN >>Excellent. Maricio last question. Are you going to be using AI machine learning, powered by Dell to determine if the tower of PISA is going to continue to lean, or if it's going to stay where it is? >>Uh, the, the, the leaning tower is, uh, an engineering miracle. Uh, some years ago, uh, an engineering, uh, incredible worker, uh, was able, uh, uh, to fix them. They leaning for a while and let's open up the tower visa, stay there because he will be one of our, uh, beauty that you can come to to visit. >>And that's one part of Italy I haven't been to. So as pandemic, I gotta add that to my travel plans, MERITO and Kaushik. It's been a pleasure talking to you about how Dell is partnering with the university of PISA to really help you power AI machine learning workloads, to facilitate many use cases. We are looking forward to hearing what's next. Thanks for joining me this morning. Thank you for my guests. I'm Lisa Martin. You're watching the cubes coverage of Dell technologies world. The digital event experience.

from the silicon angle media office in Boston Massachusetts it's the queue now here's your host David on tape hi everybody welcome to this breaking analysis in this cube insights powered by ETR I'm Dave Volante and this episode is about data protection you might be saying Dave why are you gonna bore us with the conversation about backup well it's interesting the market is actually quite hot you know over the last 18 to 24 months there's been well over a billion dollars probably 1.3 1.4 billion dollars raised just from companies like rubric Kohi City Dhruva certo and a number of other startups like clew mio is a name you might not have heard of and I'm gonna mention a couple of others so you have the situation where these upstarts particularly rubric and cohesive er really challenging the install based players and they're spending a lot of money on marketing engineering and sales and they're going to market and they're really shaking things up and I want to talk about that dynamic share with you some ETR data and talk about some of the other players like veem who was you know a rocket ship because of the virtualization trend how are they faring in this kind of new market and why is this market gaining so much attention today and what does this mean for incumbents what does it mean for customers who can achieve escape velocity and what are some of the likely outcomes that we see the market is very confused right now if you look at the Gartner Magic Quadrant the and compare that to for instance the Forrester wave del EMC is not even in the Forrester wave the Gartner Magic Quadrant has rubric you know not as a leader and and it's just all over the place and so what I want to do is use some ETR data and some context from the cube to share with you our audience what we are seeing in the marketplace and kind of what it all means so let's get into it Alex if you bring up the first slide I first want to make a statement about the overall storage market the the ETR data set which is incredible doesn't drill down into backup although it does have pure play backup vendors in the data set so I want to start with storage because it's a it's the superset of the data protection market so what this chart shows is the all the sectors and it shows the net scores remember net score is they they ask every every quarter are you spending more you're spending less so he's spending the same they subtract the less from the more and that gives you net score so this is the net score for the three periods of October 18 survey July 19 survey in the October 19 survey and you can see the red line shows you know storage is kind of on the back burner yeah it's up ticking a little bit from previous surveys but it's got a next score of 18 that's crappy I mean it's not really a hot market and I've talked in previous episodes and breaking analysis as to why I really two main factors that I cited cloud guys eating away at the traditional storage array business and flash injected so much capacity and performance into the equation that data center managers are saying hey I don't really need any more storage right now so storage is kind of on the back burner you can see I blew it up here and you can see sort of how it's playing you see the hot sectors are analytics cloud computing container platforms data warehousing is is making a comeback I've talked about snowflake on previous breaking analyses machine learning and AI and new workloads robotic process automation even virtualization these are the hot sectors that are that are driving spending but I will tell you storage ultimately is going to be there it won't be down forever because people are always going to need storage these new workloads are gonna require new storage and obviously backup if you go to the next slide Alex you can see some of the vendors here so we've sort of established ok storage is is right now it's down it's not one of the hottest sectors but you can see there's some companies in here that are pretty hot rubric leads the list with a net score of 53 percent now the shared end might be a little hard for you to read here but the shared end out of the last survey 1,300 respondents from the ETR survey answered what there's you know spending intentions were and then the individuals mentioning specific companies in this case rubric 55 so it's kind of a small shared in you can see pure storage a company that we've talked about previously you know continues to to show strength you know 48.1% down slightly from you know the previous quarters but still really the only clear share gainer in the overall a primary storage market again rubric you can see Nutanix is up on the list veeam is actually quite impressive I'm going to show you some data in a minute that I think will impress you in terms of Eames continued staying power you see vcn on there sis goes on the list God knows why sis goes on the list their storage is not you know perceived as as leading but they do have offerings and Cisco so big people just kind of yeah we're buying from Cisco you see cookie City their little dip this past survey but still very strong again I'll show you some other data there you know etc so you can see that the point is even though storage is down there are a couple of shining stars like rubric like Nutanix pure storage veem Kohi City etc so let's let's dig into that a little bit before I do that I just want to share with you some trends on this slide with regard to the the backup market you know i underscore backup because it's no longer just the backup market its evolving so there's pressure on the overall storage market but but the data protection is actually really hot right now it's it's it's captured a lot of venture capital startups are moving in I'll mention a few that you might not have heard of why well several reasons one is the data explosion continues it's it's it's growing at an exponential rate and it's kind of nonlinear digital transformations are all about how you leverage data and so if you're making your business a data business in a digital business well you better have a way to protect it so things like ransomware are coming into play and people are really concerned obviously about ransomware so so data protection of evolves and expands sort of transcends back up into business continuity cloud and hybrid cloud are some other trends that I'll talk about in more detail that are driving opportunities for what we're traditionally known as backup and really now evolving into sort of these new areas last decade it was about moving from from tape to disc you know tape sucks that was kind of the data domain mantra and they were the hot company of last decade they got you know they did an IPO they reached escape velocity they sold for 2.5 billion you know but today you know the data domain platform that EMC bought and and now is Dell EMC is kind of old school right it's these new guys that are coming after that so so well well data domain pioneer data deduplication and higher performance back up moving to storage today it's a whole new conversation and people have come to the realization that the primary and active storage is only about 20% of the stored data all the all the less hot data I don't want to say inactive stuff it's not cold storage but it's files and objects and copies and replicas and and backups that's 80% of the marketplace today it's in terms of the volume of data not necessarily the spend you know OLTP stuff primary storage is expensive flash arrays expensive but huge opportunity especially in terms of data growth that's where all the data growth is happening all that unstructured data so today the conversation is evolving to data protection data management data assurance particularly with containers so you think about spinning up containers spinning down containers you know dozens hundreds thousands of containers how do you keep track of that stuff how do you protect that how do you assure that your data is not leaking that you're not exposed and so that's a really hot area that you're seeing a number of startups focus on so real focus on recovery becomes much more important for a digital business how fast can I recover security compliance this notion of data sharing CDM on this slide which is stands for copy data management a practice that was really popularized by actifi Oh DevOps really supporting DevOps through a data management platform being able to give live copies or near live copies of data so that you know tests can be tested on you know much more fresh data in that in compressing that cycle time analytics becomes more important I talked about ransomware before well you can look at the the backup corpus and do analytics on that to see if there are anomalies in anomalous behavior just in terms of bad actors coming in so all this stuff joined with cloud and hybrid cloud and is put a bridging the legacy business and it's bringing out a lot of new challengers to the incumbents so let's take a look at some of that data from ETR Alex if you go to the next slide this is the ETR data set on backup vendors so what I've done here is it is pulled out of storage the pure-play data protection folks so I can you know call in backup vendors they hate when they call them backup know we're much more than backup it's where data management now data management means a lot of things to a lot of people but but nonetheless they are expanding and transcending pure backup so so credit to them this is the net score timeline from January 2017 to the latest October survey from enterprise technology research and you can see here I've pulled our rubric cohesively veem CommVault and Veritas and rubric leads as they say with 53% net score followed by Veen 44% so you can see Veeam really hanging tough though he said he just relat relat of lis new to the survey jumped up jumped down a little bit in in this quarter you'll see that you'll see that in the et our data anyone get too freaked out about it I think he said he still got some some tailwind and cementum momentum as does rubric but look at Veen Dean's ascendancy came from really VMware they were the VMware specialists and they were all virtualized and now you know they do bare metal they're doing cloud and multi cloud and and and they backup you know office 365 and and and so that's the SAS platform but look at how well they've held up quite impressive there with Veen made have made a major push into the enterprise kind of pivoted back to SMB but still does a lot of business in the enterprise and you can see them showing up here what's relevant to me is that the the shared end in other words out of the 1,300 and the total survey how many are responding to these vendors rubric 55 relatively small veeam 155 much larger so a bigger install base cohesive 42 kind of just getting started in the ETA dataset CommVault 105 so carve-outs a 700 million dollar company and revenues on a trailing 12-month basis they get about a 2.2 billion dollar market cap they just bought hedvig they're moving toward a SAS model they launched a product called metallic they get a very very large install base you can see their net scores yeah we're there holding relatively well they're smaller obviously they're lower than those top three and then you can see Veritas Veritas is the big whale in the business they kind of mostly almost a pure play software company they do have an appliance but they really are the the leader a leader here and have had a big market they went private they got bought by semantics semantics didn't know what to do with them they fumbled around with it they did a private equity deal you know that was going okay but they had some management turnover a private equity you know squeeze them a little bit even though they made some investments in the platform and so Veritas has you know some challenges they have to serve the install base but at the same time they got to compete with the new guys and all the new guys cohesively and rubric in particular are attacking you know the veritas install base you know certainly CommVault and as well Dell and EMC you can't have a discussion really around leadership and backup and data protection without talking about Delhi and C they're so large so Alex if you go to the next slide you can see the net score for Dell EMC the N here is 348 much much larger than some of the other guys that I just mentioned I'm actually look at Veritas 97 even though I have a large install base so Dell EMC but here's the caveat this is all of Delhi MC storage so not just the pure play back up the previous slide I was showing you pure play data protection vendors this is all of Dell EMC so it includes all their primary stuff all their flash storage all their storage not the other parts of their business not the compute and analytics and other stuff just storage so I'm using this as a proxy okay so this is not Dells data protection business only and so what let me make some comments there and I'll comment on Dell data protection business you can see it came out of the downturn on the past 2009 big optic and Joe toots used to say we're gonna come out stronger we're gonna invest through the downturn we got the cash we're gonna come out stronger that's exactly what happened they came out very strong but then you know cash flow started to get squeezed they expanded their product portfolio it was like product du jour all these mega launches and it just got too confusing for customers Salesforce got confused they got less productive and any an Adele or EMC at the time was really relying on VMware it's the value in Dell and I'm sorry I keep saying Dell value in EMC at the time was really in VMware and you could see that kind of steady decline in the net score and that's what happened to Elliott management came in they squeezed EMC kind of forced him forced her hand and then Dell ended up taking in private let me make some comments about the Dell acquisition and specifically Dell emcs data protection business Dell MC took its eye off the ball in storage generally but specifically in the data protection business it fell behind it wasn't investing fast enough it had some management changes that put Beth Phelan in charge a couple years ago now and her task was okay sure she was tasked with shoring up this business so but they had to get some new products out they had to focus on you know some of the the lower end of the market and then have to refocus on the higher end of the market so they've really begun to get their act together again in in data protection and really refreshing the data domain piece of the portfolio bringing Alomar and data domain to get and becoming much more competitive having said that they lost some ground okay so they've got that same challenge challenges Veritas they've not only got the new guys coming at them with this modern you know data platform they've got to service the existing install basin it's going to manage that cash flow they're now a public company again so a lot of pressure on those guys I want to go back to the to the previous chart Alex if you will and then is the one that shows you know rubric cohesive veem CommVault and and Veritas the the pure plays there's some other dynamics that I want to talk to talk about here HPE exited the software business it's it's its course offer a business it's sold off the Micro Focus and as part of that it's sold off data protector when it did that it opened up a whole new partnership opportunity for these emerging companies particular cohesive and veeam are actually reselling through HPE HP he's got a massive channel and those two companies are doing very well there I said you can't talk about data protection without talking about Dell EMC same thing for IBM you got to talk about IBM IBM is a huge install base and IBM free but Tivoli years ago Frank Moss's company and then they served mainframes and it was this big complicated platform kind of still is and so IBM had to make a move so it it it was getting killed in the marketplace by Veeam in particular so it created spectrum protect Plus and an IBM is really gone after software-defined it's it's it's it's begun to modernize its platform going after containers as I mentioned is a hot area but it's still got that same problem it's got to service the install base and so they're sort of doing that balancing act but it definitely had to you know refresh the portfolio and it's done a good job there with spectrum protect plus a couple of the companies that I haven't mentioned Dhruva is getting into that whole data management space so cohesively and rubric kind of redefining back up into data management theme goes back to the basics really talks about backup in data protection data management as being the future so it's kind of Dee trying to deep position rubric and cohesive as as you know much more in the future and not here today and so they're sort of playing that marketing game and very effectively as you can see by its net scores again Dhruva hopping on the the data management day bandwagon certo kind of a dr replication expert Klum you know is calling BS and all these guys is saying we're going pure sass model and and Klum you know does a sass for pure sass pure software for just AWS small company but it's raised a bunch of dough it's raised about 50 million dollars I think but here's some other names you might not have heard of caste ni o Valero trillion ease guys are going hard after containers and what I referred to earlier as data assurance so the big question is who's going to be able to achieve escape velocity for the for the upstarts who's going to be able to hold serve for the the incumbents let me make a couple of comments on that I think storage eventually is going to bounce back as I say some of those hot emerging workload areas like AI they they're gonna need storage you know analytics is gonna be driving you know the need for these types of things security data surance data protection service storage will theirs don't bet against the data so storage will I think eventually you know bounce back and unlike compute where Intel makes all the margin storage is more like networking where you get really good margins it's a you know 60 Plus percent gross margin business pure storage has almost 70 percent gross margins cloud is the wild card here I predict you're gonna see the cloud vendors begin to dramatically expand you know their their portfolios and you know use beyond just gonna s3 simple object storage okay yeah we got elastic you know a block store EBS from Amazon you know Microsoft has you know the you know similar store just as Google they are gonna double down on storage they're gonna they're gonna look at storage as a bigger opportunity and that is a wild card it could you know continue to pressure the traditional storage guys but look let's face it it's a hybrid world still ton of stuff going on Prem so I think that that the the overall market will bounce back I think data protection as a subset and data management is going to grow faster it has some tailwind I think it's got an expanding Tam and those tail winds are digital data digital business security data assurance this new management capability that I talked about DevOps and contain a protection container platforms as I showed you earlier and the ETR data is one of the hottest areas going and I think you're gonna see some consolidation you saw CommVault bought Hedvig you're gonna see some exits veeam is now talking about doing an IPO it just took in a half a billion dollars in investment so its investors are gonna want an exit so are cohesive ease and rubrics which together have raised almost a billion dollars so you're gonna see some some M&A I think specialists like zero and and Dhruva are probably gonna be B targets I think you're still gonna see Dell become much much more aggressive kind of getting their act together the big incumbents IBM you know Veritas refreshing their portfolio again their challenge is the innovators dilemma so I do think you're gonna see some at least one maybe two the the favorites there would be cohesive near rubric is achieve escape velocity I don't think there's enough room for three to be like blockbuster IPOs that that that can survive long term but I think this data management thing has legs and we're gonna continue to watch it here thanks to you for watching thanks to our friends at ETR for sharing this data is Dave Volante for cube insights powered by ETR we'll see you next time

>> So welcome to the special. Keep conversation here in Palo Alto, California John, for a host of the Cube. We're here with two co founders. Adam Casella was the CTO and Glenn Sullivan's cofounder. Snap Route Hot Start up, guys. Welcome to this Cube conversation. Thank you. Thank you. So left on the founders in because you get the down and dirty, but you guys are launching. Interesting product is for Cloud Cloud Native Super sighting. But first, take a man to explain what is snap brought. What do you guys do? What's the main core goal of the company? >> Right? So your your audience and you familiar with white Box now working disaggregated networking, where you're buying your hardware and your software from different companies. There's a lot of different Network OS is out there, but there's nobody doing what we're doing for the now ergo es, which is a cloud native approach to that where it's a fully containerized, fully micro serviced network OS running on these white box, which is >> test your background. How did you guys start this company? Where'd you come from? What was the epiphany? Was the motivation? >> Sure. So our heritage is from operations running at some of the largest Edison is in the world. We came from Apple. Ah, and running the networks there. And the issues and problems that we saw doing that is what led us to found stabbed. >> And what are some of the things that apples you guys notice on a huge scale? Yep. I mean, Apple. You know, a huge market share most probable company. I think it's now the largest cat. Microsoft was there for a while, but and apples, the gold standard, get from privacy to scale. What were some of the things that you saw, that what was the authority? >> So, I mean, there was a couple of things going on there, one we were driving driving too, doing white box for more control. So we wanted to have a better sense of what we could do with the network operating system on those devices. And we found very quickly that the operating systems that were out there, whether they be from a traditional manufacturer Ah, we and the planes or from someone from a disaggregated marketplace were basically using the same architecture. And this was this old, monolithic single binary item that goes in the pleasant device, and you know that worked in, you know, back in the day when you know applications didn't move, they were static there, One particular location. But as we were seeing, and one things that we were really pushing on is being able to dynamically have move workloads from one location to another quickly to meet demand. The network was not able to keep up with that, and we believe that it really came down to the architecture that was there. Not being flexible enough and not allowing our control to be able to put in the principles would actually allow us to allow that that application time to service be faster. >> You know, one of these on personally fascinated, you know, seeing startups out there and living in this cloud error and watching those like Facebook and Apple, literally build the new kind of scale in real time. It's like you have, you know, changing the airplane engine out of thirty five thousand feet. As the expression goes, you have to be modern. I mean, there's money on the line that's so much scale, and when you see an inefficiency, you've got to move on it Yeah, this is like, what, you guys did it. Apple. What were some of the things that yet you observed was that the box is Was it the software? A CZ? You wanted to be more agile. What was the the problem that you saw? >> So it it's really in fragility, right? It's it's basically, this Network OS is as they were, our design in a way so that you don't touch him right. If you look at the code releases and how often they, you know, fixed security vulnerabilities or you know they have patches or even knew regular versions right there. The cycle isn't weekly. It's not daily like you see in some C I C. Environments, right? You might have a six month or a twelve month or an eighteen month cycle for doing this sort of a new release for for, you know, whatever issue new features or or fixes, right. And the problem that we would see is we would be we would be trying to test a version in the lab, right? We would be qualifying code and say there's a security vulnerability. You know, something like heart bleed, right? That comes out the guys on the server side, they push a new patch using, you know, answerable Scheffer puppet and, you know, two days later, everything's good, even two hours later in some environments. But we had to wait for the new release to come from one of the traditional vendors we had to put in our lab, and we get this sort of kitchen sink of every other fix. There'd be enhancements to be GP that we didn't ask for. There'd be enhancements to, you know, Spanish or that we didn't ask for. Even if they patched it, you'd still get this sort of all in one update. And by the time you're done qualifying, there might be another security vulnerability. So you got to start over. So you'd be in this constant cycle of months of qualified, you know, qualifying the image because you you'd be testing everything that's in the image. And not just that. The update. And that's really the key difference between what we're >> going to work involves shapes you eventually chasing your tail. Exactly. One thing comes in and opens up a lot of consequences, but that's what systems over >> all about this consequences, right? This is right systems are challenging. And what it does is it is it creates this culture and no from the network folks, right? Because the network folks are basically, like, not in my backyard. You want to add this new thing? No. Because they're judged by up time. They're judged by how long the network is up and how long the applications available. They're not judged by how quickly they can put a new feature out or how how quickly they can roll an update. Their They're literally judged in most organizations by up time. How many nines are they giving? So if I'm judged by up time and somebody wants to add something new, my first answer as a network person has anybody really is gonna be No, no, no, don't touch anything. It's it's fragile >> because they're jerks or anything. They just know the risk associate with what could come from the consequence exactly touching something. So, yes, it's hard right now to yes, Okay, so I gotta ask you guys a question. How come the networking industry hasn't solved this problem? >> Well, there's a There's a few different reasons I feel it is, and that's because we've had very tightly coupled, very tightly controlled systems that have been deployed his appliances without allowing operators to go ahead and add their innovations onto those items. So if you look at the way thie compute world is kind of moved along in the past fifteen, you know, fifty, thirty years, you mean, really a revolution started to athletics, right? From their particular perspective, you have Lennox. You can open up the system, you get people constructing open source items everyone knows just end. A story that makes the most is the most successful, monolithic, you know, piece of code base that's ever existed, right? It took fifteen years later for anyone in the network industry to even run the linens on a switch. I mean, that's that's pretty, you know, huge in my mind, right? That's that's that's called like Yeah, and so and even when they've got it on the particular switch to running older versions of Colonel, they're running different things. They don't you know, back Porter versions of code that don't work with the most modern applications that are out there, and they really have it in their tight, little walled garden that you can't adjust things with and >> that was their operational mode at the time. I mean, networks were still stable. They weren't that complicated. And hence the lag and many felt had been left >> behind. Theocracy. Inefficiencies that may have function when you have dozens of devices doesn't function when you have hundreds and thousands of devices. And so when you look at, like even from the way they they presented their operating system from a config standpoint, it is a flat config file that's loaded from filing booted. That's the same paradigm people of file for forty years. Why do we still think that hotel today compute has left that behind? They're going the programmatic AP diversions with you know whether it be you know, Cooper netease war with Doctor, where they have everything built into one ephemeral container that gets deployed. Why it hasn't been working in the same thing. And I really believe it's for that close ecosystem that hasn't allowed. People look to put their innovations onto their Yeah, it's >> almost as a demarcation point in time. You think about history and him and how we got here, where it's like, Okay, we got perimeters. We got firewalls and switches top Iraq stuff. So you got scale. It's bolted down, it's secure. And incomes Cloud comes I ot So there's almost a point, You know, it almost picked. The year was a two thousand eight doesn't through two thousand twelve. You started to see that philosophy. So the question I've asked for you is that what was the tipping point? So because, you know, the fire being lit under the butts of networking guys finally hit and someone saying, Well, they don't evolve to be like the mainframe guys. I was like, not really, because mainframes is just different from client server. Networks aren't going away there around. What's the tip was the tipping point. What made the network industry stand up? >> So yeah, what it is, is it's it's being able to buy infrastructure with a credit card, Right? Because as soon as I've got a problem as an application owner was a developer, I say, Hey, I've got this thing that I've got a release, right and I go to the network came and said, I've got this new thing and I get any sort of pushback. Now you look a cloud, right? Eight of us is our Google, like all the different options out there. Fine. I don't need these guys anymore. When the grab credit card slide it, boom. Now I can buy my infrastructure. That's that's really the shift. That's what's pushing folks away from using those kind of classic network infrastructure is because they could do something else, right? >> So cloud clearly driving it, think >> I would. I would say so. Yeah, absolutely. All >> right, So the path of solve these problems, you guys have an interesting solution. What's the path? What's the solution that you guys are bringing to market? Sure. >> So the way I had kind of view, the way the landscape is set up is really if you look at you know where this innovation has happened in the compute side in the last little bit Weatherby Cloud, whether it be, you know, some of the club native items would come out there. They've all come for the operators. I haven't been a vendor to sitting there and going to play. They've kind of mirth, morph himself into vendors. But they didn't originate as vendors, right to go and supply these systems. And so what I see from the solution to that is sort of enabling operators and people who are running networks to be ableto controller their own destiny to manage how their networks are deployed right. And this boils down from our perspective to a micro services containerized network operating system that is not be spoke, not proprietary, but is using the ecosystem has been built from this P people on the computes side specifically the cloud native universe in a cloud native world and applying those perimeters and shims onto network >> learned, learned from the cloud, Right? Like don't try to make something better. Look at the reasons why folks are going to the cloud Look at the AP structures looking. He's of launching instances. Look, att the infrastructure you build with a few clicks and say, What can I learn from that environment to Moto? Mimic that in my private environment? >> Yeah, and this is why we kinda looked at cu burnett. He's is a really big piece of our infrastructure and using the company as a p I as the main interface in tor device. So that you, Khun, you know multi different reasons, is expandable. You could do, you know, a bunch of different custom options to expand that a P i But it allows people who are either in. Deva loves to look at that and go. I understand how this works. I know how these shims function and started getting in the realization that networking is not that much different than what the computer world is. >> So you guys embraced integration, his deployment, CCD pipeline, all that good stuff. And Cooper netease even saw Apple at sea Ncf conference that they have a booth there. No one would talk, but certainly communities is getting part that cloud native. What's the important solution that you guys are building to solve to solve from the problems that you're going after with now the cloud needed because Dev ops ethos is trickling down, helping down the stack. Certainly we know what cloud is, so it's So what is specifically the problem that you solved >> So a couple things that air So obviously you have your, you know, application time of service. The faster you can double your application, the faster you can get up and running the factory. People using out it is, you know, you get more money, you save money, right? Um, you have security. No one wants to be in that that, you know, that box of having a security voluntarily happened on there, but they >> were non compliance, >> Yes, or non compliance with particular thing with a P i. P. I C P C high socks and all in all things that come along with that. And finally it's the operational efficiency of day two operations. We've gotten pretty good as industry as deploying Day one operations and walking away. We don't do anything. No, no, no. We can't change the network anymore. It's really that next day when you have to to things like apply those applications or have a new application, it gets moved. Containers are ephemeral. The average container last two to three days. Viens last twenty three days. Monolithic caps last for years. That air that are not in those things that are just compute bare metal piece. So when we start moving to a location or a journey of having a two to three day ephemeral app that can be removed or moved, replace different location. The network needs to be able to react to that, and it needs to be able to take that and ensure that that not only up time but availability is there for that, >> and it's not management tools that are going to fix it, right? This is this is sort of our core argument is that you look at all of the different solutions that have come out for the last seven, eight, nine years in the networking in the open networking space. This trying to solve this from management perspective with, you know, different esti n profiling different, different solutions for solving this management. Day two operations issues, right. And our core argument is that the management layers on top aren't what needs to change. That can change. If you adopt communities, you get that kind of along with it. But you need to change the way the network OS itself is built so that it's not so brittle so that it's not so fragile breaking into micro services, breaking the containers so that you can put it into a CCD pipeline. You try to take a monolithic network OS and put it in your C. C I. C D Pipeline. You're going to be pushing a rock up. Help. >> It's funny. We've had Scott McNealy on the Cube founder Sun Microsystems and we said, You know, he has from one time. Hey, you know what about the cloud he goes? I should I had network is the computer was his philosophies. I should should we call the cloud? So if the network is the computer kind of concept thie operating environment management's not aki sub system of the network. It's a component, but the operating system has subsystems. So I like this idea of a network, operates system talk about what you guys do with your work operating system and what is day to mean. What is actually that means >> sure. So when you take your services and you divide them up into containers and, you know, call the micro services, basically taking a single service, putting container and having a bunch of dependency that might be associate with that, what you end up doing is having your ability to, uh, you know, replace or update that particular container independently of the other components on the system. If an issue happens, or if you want to get a new feature functionally for that, the other thing you could do is you, Khun Slim, down what you're running. So you don't have to run these two hundred plus features, which is the average amount you see and just a top Iraq device. And you only use maybe ten to twenty percent of those. Why do I have all these extra features that I have to qualify that may introduce a bug into my particular environment. I want to run the very specific items that I know I need to give my application, uh, up and running and the ability to go ahead and pull in the cloud native environment and tools to do that allows you to get the efficiencies that they've learned from not only the cloud way, but also even doing some on Prem communities. You know, private cloud items to get those efficiencies on their forwarding, your network running your applications. >> It's learning from the hyper sailors to write like this. This is Well, I mean, we had this when we were running networks, right? You put every protocol on the board on a white board, and then you'd start crossing them off and you start arguing in a room full of people saying, Why do I need this feature? Why do I need this other feature and it's like you have to justify it. And we know this is happening up the road at, you know, places like Facebook because, like Google, right, we know that they're that they're saying, Hey, the fewer features I have running the simple or my environment is the easier it is to troubleshoot, the less that can go wrong and the less security vulnerabilities. I have these air all. It's all goodness to run less right. So if you give people the ability to actually do that, they have a substantially better network. Yeah, >> what's unique about what you guys doing? How would you describe the difference between what you're doing and what people mean she might be looking at? >> So if you look at what you know other folks, that you know that we're going to see that look at collaborative Riku Burnett ys everything they do is a bolt on until his old architecture that's been around for twenty five years. So it's like a marriage between these two items. It's how you go ahead and have this plug in that interacts with that. Forget all that you're going to get up in the same spot with another thing you're adding on to another thing you're adding on to another thing. Hearing onto it seized these abstraction layers on top of distraction layers were taking the approach where it is native to the non core operating system. You know, Cooper, Daddy's Docker, Micro Services and containers. They're native to the system. We're not anything on. We're not bolting anything on there. That's how it is. Architect designed to be run. >> And that's key, right? The thing that we were really walking away from from our operational experience, we know that the decisions being made at that, you know, CEO Seo level and even in the you know, director of infrastructure level are going to be We're looking to build an on Prem solution, Mr Customers saying I need it to be orchestrated by an open, nonproprietary platform that gets rid of all of the platforms that are currently out there by the traditional network. Oh, yeah, Bs right. If you start out saying my orchestration platform has to be shared from compute storage network and it has to be open and has to be not proprietary, that pretty much leaves communities is you're really only choice and combinations important. It's hugely important to us, right? We knew that when we broke everything into, you know, containerized Micro Services. You need something to orchestrate those. So what we've done is we said, Hey, we're going to use this Cuban eighties tool. We're going to embed it on the device itself, and we're going to run it natively so that it can be the control point for all the different containers that are running on the system. >> That's awesome, guys. Great Chef will go forward to chatting more final question. What words of wisdom you have for other folks out there, Because there are a lot of worlds colliding as we look at the convergence of a cloud architect, which, by the way, is not a well defined position >> where you >> have infrastructure, folks who have gone through machinations of roles. Network engineer this that the other thing programmable networks air out there. You seeing this thing really time data? I oh, ti's. Also, you're all coming together yet. So what, you gotta re evaluating? What's your advice to folks out there? Who who are either evaluating running POC is rethinking their architecture. >> So the first thing that you know I think this is pretty common from folks that to hear is that evolve, or you're not going to be relevant anymore. You need to actually embrace these other items you can't ignore. Cloud. You can't pretend like I have a network. These applications will never move because eventually they will and you're going to be out of a job. And so we need you to start looking at some of the items that are out there from the cloud native universe to couldn't see Cooper nineties universe and realizing that networking is not a special Silent is completely different from, you know, dev ops every items they need to be working together. And we need to get these two groups and to communicate to each other, to actually move the ball forward for getting applications out there faster for customers. >> Don't let the thing I would say to infrastructure, folks, especially those that are going to cloud strategy is don't let the Ivy and the Moss grow on your own prime solution yesterday. Right? Go into your multi cloud strategy with I'm gonna have some stuff in eight of us and have some stuff deserve. I'm not stuff some stuff and Google. I might have some stuff overseas because the data sovereignty. But I'm also gonna have things that are on prep. Look at your on from environment and make it better to reflect what you could do in the cloud. Because once you're developers get using the AP structures in the cloud. They're going to want something very similar on Prem. And if they don't have it than your own, Prem is going to rot. And and you're going to have some part of your business that has to be on Prem and you're going to give it a level of service that isn't as good as the cloud, and nobody wants to be in that situation. >> Glenn, Adam Thanks so much for sharing. Congratulations on the launch of Snap Out every year and thanks for coming and sharing conversation. >> Thanks. Great. >> I'm John for here in Palo Alto. The Cube Studios for Cube Conversation with Snapper Out. Launching. I'm shot for you. Thanks for watching