(uplifting music) >> Hi, I'm Stu Miniman and welcome to a CUBE Conversation. Really excited to have a start up in the serverless space here in our studios in Palo Alto. Welcome to the program, first-time guest, we have Nate Taggart, who's the CEO, and Farrah Campbell, who's the Ecosystem Manager, both with Stackery. Thank you so much for joining us. >> Stu, thanks for having us. >> Thank you. >> Farrah, I know you're just in from Vegas and from the DevOps Enterprise Summit. Why don't we start there a little bit? DevOps, this big wave, a lot of changes, what's the energy you're hearing, what are people talking about what's exciting them these days? >> A lot of things are exciting them. I think that the whole ecosystem is changing. There's so much happening it's almost like the 80s and 90s, you know what I mean, where there's like the dot-commer I guess. There's so much new technology that's out there and it's available. I think that people are really trying to understand where they should go. Maybe I've already started with containers, now people are talking about serverless. What do I do? >> It's a great point. These waves of technology come so fast. When people write their strategy, you might now even want to write it in ink. (Nate and Farrah laughs) They may be drawing because Clay Christensen always says it's something you should revisit. You should go at least once a quarter. It's directionally where I need to go, but things change. All right, Nate, Stackery. Bring us back. First, give us a little bit about the team's background, yourself and what led to the formation of the company. >> Yeah, thanks, Stu. My founding team actually comes out in New Relic. We were early employees there, stayed 'til the IPO. We've worked building, DevTooling for a long time, hand-managing at scale infrastructure. One of the things that we found was, I mean, New Relic was a high-velocity engineering team and the bottleneck, in many cases, was infrastructure. After New Relic, I worked with the data science group at GitHub, again, building massive data infrastructure and the bottleneck was not figuring out what to do. It wasn't the work in front of us. It was the underlying, un-differentiate heavy-lifting of infrastructure. Chase Douglas, my co-founder, and I, when we saw AWS Lambda come out us, it's the first example of a wave of serverless services, we got really excited and realized this took away a lot of the barriers and a lot of the burden of building new applications, started playing with it. This was three years ago. Over the next few years, we've been working with all the serverless pioneers figuring out what are the changes that they're experiencing from their operations cycle from managing the life cycle of an application, how are their teams in the dynamics changing the workflow. We took those best practices and built it into Stackery, which is now a software product to accelerate serverless operations. >> We've been watching this for a while. Give us a little bit of a perspective first. There's some things different about this serverless wave or functions as a service. I'm an infrastructure guy by background and we've always wanted to not have the boat anchors of network and storage slow us down, but I lived through the virtualization wave. (Nate laughs) I've got the scars of over a decade. >> Sure. >> Working in the ecosystem of trying to fix that. Everybody got super excited when containers in a Docker helped bring that to the mainstream, but it was tools helping us move up the stack a little. Serverless, to me, when I look at it, it really starts from the application level down and there's still lots of infrastructure stuff. It's not like it disappears. I've got the great T-shirt from the cloud guru people. (Nate laughs) It's like there is no cloud of someone else's computer, they have the longer version of that for serverless. I love your viewpoint 'cause, New Relic, they'd seen, they track, they monitor that, you had a great way to look at it, GitHub of course, but what's the same, what's different about what's so important about serverless and what it does for companies? >> Fundamentally, we're looking at just two different patterns and neither one of them is right or wrong, but they have different use cases, different applications, areas where they excel. New Relic was a big champion in early pioneer of Docker. We used a lot of containers, a lot of orchestration technology, so I'm still a big proponent of that. I think when I look at the serverless marker today, it's tempting to look at it as an abstraction layer, disfunction as a service, there's maybe micro-container type view. It's not really the pattern we're seeing in industry. What we're actually seeing is people are saying it's a manage service and it's not just Lambda, it's not just compute as a manage service. It's me stringing together the manage components I need to develop quickly and deliver business value to focus on business logic instead of the plumbing. I think API Gateway is manage service, I think there's manage databases in their manage service, there's event streams. You pull all the pieces together and Lambda may be a component of that. In that way, it actually fits in and compliments a container program. >> Absolutely. What I was trying to say is containers kill VMs and serverless kills this. It's kind of like cloud is more of an operation model. >> Sure. >> Serverless is more of how I build my applications and services that I can use, not the unit of how I build something. Farrah, when I look at it, the conversations I've had with users, it's not the okay, let me take the person that did some silo and teach them to code or put that together. I've talked to marketing people that are like, "I got involved and I can do this." What are you seeing from the personnel and who's using it, how is it very different from what we've seen in the past? >> I think it opens up a lot of doors. I think it makes the unattainable attainable. You see people that go from front end to full stack. It takes you to the tip of technology. I'm mentoring a woman that is using serverless as a way to get app out. She doesn't understand infrastructure, she doesn't understand all the ops and how to set all those things up and it would take a long time to figure all those things out. Those are harder doors to open. Everything's been done the same for a very long time. There's like this free knowledge is shared here. Serverless has an ecosystem. It's kind of like a community where everybody is working together, sharing knowledge and trying to actually build something bigger and better, something that feels good to be a part of. We have a lady that's working at our office coming out of code school and she is a killer engineer. You can talk more about what Anna's doing for us at Stackery, but she's coming out of a code school and is operating as if she's a full-stack engineer >> I think that's really the compelling story behind serverless, is focus on business value. >> Yeah. >> And that's the mission of every software engineer. It's the reason most of us got into software engineering was 'cause we wanted to solve puzzles, we wanted to work with logic and idea, we wanted to build. We didn't want to sit and configure infrastructure as code templates in order to stand up some basic EC2 server, so that we can run our application, right? >> Nate, maybe you troned a little bit for us. What does Stackery do in this ecosystem? What are you helping customers? If you've got any customer examples, we'd love to hear that. >> Absolutely. First off, the development model is changing. If you want to do serverless, serverless, again, is a manage service. I can't replicate all of AWS on my laptop. In order to work with these manage services, in the development cycle, I'm shipping code to the cloud. I'm provisioning resources in the cloud. Maybe in my own account or a developer account, but I have to know how to provision those resources and then configure those resources. If I'm doing this in a professional environment, then it means I need to do this in a way that's automated, scalable, I can hand off to someone else, they can replicate and this is the workflow to tooling, the guardrails that Stackery brings to your serverless program. We make it so that a developer can take a branch out of version control and deploy their own instance of it in their sand-boxed environment within their AWS account. This was kind of automation workflows, handling of configuration templating, being able to pull a resource off the shelf, I need to put my database in a VPC (Nate snaps fingers) and boom, it's pre-configured and ready for you to go. >> Okay. >> Stackery also enables you to work on your core problems. I'm not busy trying to research how the 1400 services are going to interact with each other. I don't have time to do that. I'm trying to focus on one of my projects. I'm focused on a deadline. I'm trying to get a specific task done. I don't have time to research for a week to try to get that, to figure that out. Not only that, it's not a language, so focusing time and trying to figure out and formulate cloud formation, it seems like a waste of time. >> The flip side of this is that that is some of the most important mission critical work that teams are doing. You can't provision into your production AWS account if you have misconfigured IM roles. You don't want to open access to that account to every single person in the organization. You don't want misconfigured resources. This new model, this new development change, where the application is at the heart of the life cycle, if we're not helping people to quickly stand up correctly configured resources then we're putting more load on the ITT, more load on the operational team and actually slowing down development. >> Bring us inside. When do you usually get engaged, who's driving those engagements, when you talk about write, what were they doing before and what does this enable them to do once they're engaged? >> Even though serverless feels like an infrastructure solution, it's actually the application development side of the house that tends to be the leading adopter. A lot of cases, they're trying to un-bottleneck their operations team or not send them low-criticality work loads. A typical entry point might be something like a cron job. We have this little function that just needs to run once a day. Do I really need to have a capacity-planning meeting with the ops team to get this out in production? They go, "Okay, we'll write the code, we'll ship it as a serverless function and we'll get it out the door." That works really well when you're a single-principle engineer with maybe elevated privileges in your cloud accounts. It doesn't work so well as a replicable process that you can then scale across the org. I don't think ops leaders want just like let's open the gates to our kingdom. Instead, what we see is that four companies to go through a maturing curve of embracing this technology where they go from background tasks, data pipelines, cron jobs, low-visibility work to maybe more core services that can extend their product or deliver more customer-facing value. They have to answer a lot of questions in terms of how do we change our process and our culture in order to embrace the velocity of serverless without losing the control that our ops team's been providing for us. >> Also, setting your team up for success. Anybody knows that if I'm working on a specific task or we get a project I'm working on, if I don't understand it and can't figure it out, I'm going to get frustrated, I'm not liking my job anymore, I hate this problem that we're working on, this initiative is dumb, I don't want to be a part of this, but Stackery allows somebody, it made me feel good about it, all the things that you can accomplish. We have a customer that's using this right now that they are moving faster than they ever thought that was possible and it's been so much fun to see their excitement and more things that they learn about that they're using it like, "Look what we just did!" They were going to pull out the whiteboard. He was like, "Let's not pull out the whiteboard, Let's just pull out Stackery." That's awesome. >> It's really fun. We opened Slack channels for some of our customers and it's so exciting to watch them get so fired up about being able to self-serve, being able to actually deliver value and hit their milestones very quickly and successfully. You were talking about what segments are driving this. One of the interesting patterns that we've seen is that it's not like the cutting-edge infrastructure team. In a lot of cases, it might be the under-served software teams in an organization. One of our first customers was an enterprise company doing retail and it was their marketing enablement team, a business enablement team that says, "Hey, our work is important. It drives revenue," is critical to our business, but it feels like a busy workload to the ops team and it's hard to get priority on this. For them to be able to self-serve to relieve some of that back pressure, but then deliver the business value, it was like an immediate measurable win for 'em. >> We often talk about the future of jobs so often, it's like oh, well. Really, you need to be a data scientist. You could go get all this training, you need to get there. It sounds like the bar is kind of low to be able to jump in here and don't necessarily need to go through certifications to start getting real results. >> I think maybe instead of saying, "The bar is low," we're opening the doors wider. We're saying that you can be successful by being able to write software and deliver business value and that you don't need to learn, also, how to configure cloud resources or write infrastructure as code templates or manage an operations lifecycle, personally, to be able to ramp up and add value to your organization. >> All right. Nate, how many people in the company, tell us what you can about funding and which expect to see from you and the team throughout the next six to 12 months. >> Absolutely. Officially, our company is now two years old, we're a team of 15 and we've raised seven and a half million dollars led by Voyager Capital and Hummer Winblad. >> Okay. >> I want to add that I had been involved in a number of startups. This team is different. We have five women on our team. >> Yeah. >> When I joined 10, there was four. We have one in ops and three women engineers >> We're up to six now. >> I know, but that's what I'm saying. I'm talking 'about when I started and that is like you don't see that. >> I wonder. There's certain shows I go to when I go to the Cloud Foundry show, when I go to Kubernetes show, when I go to, more of, the developer-centered shows, I do tend to find a higher percentage women. Are we seeing it or is that really? >> Oh, for sure. My first conference, when I started Stackery, was Serverlessconf. It was awesome. I walked into this hackathon actually scared to death because I've been to them before and was basically laughed out of there like, "What are you doing here?" I asked to be a part of a team that had to build a product and we to demo it and I went up to 'em and told 'em that I knew nothing about. I'm not an engineer, I can't write code at all, but I did understand business problems and I was trying to understand where serverless could be useful or what service would be useful. They were like, "Let's find you a team," and they had me working on the business plan while they were doing all the coding and I was like, "Let's do check-ins every single hour." Just that feeling like a welcome. You felt welcomed there and, as a women working in tech, I haven't felt welcomed at a number of conferences or a lot of hackathons, but I definitely felt welcomed there. >> It's great to hear. I saw on Twitter the other day and it was like, "Could you just imagine if for the last thousand years, we'd actually use the brainpower of the entire human race, (Nate laughs) not having kept 50% of the population from contributing." Nate, want to give you the final word. Serverless, it's growing fast, there's a lot of excitement, but what do you see as the biggest challenges. What does the industry need to work on? What's exciting you that, when we come and sit down in 2019, you're hoping we've moved the ball more? >> I think that one take-away that I want to make sure your audience has is that if you're sitting here saying, "We're not doing serverless," you're wrong. Someone in your organization is doing it. If you have this self-served model where pockets of the organization, this is the old shadow IT, where they are self-serving their configuring resources, their provisioning and it's outside of your peri-view, you're going to want to start putting practice steps in place to make sure that they're able to be successful with that mission. If they're not successful with that mission, they increase risk on your cloud strategy as a whole. They put more workload back on the operations team if that team ends up being a bottleneck for these needs. I hear a lot of IT leaders going, "I don't know if we're doing serverless today." It's like, "No, you are. I've talked to two of your engineers. I know you are." (Nate chuckles) >> Absolutely, right there. When I interviewed Andy Jassy, we had him on theCUBE last year, it was serverless becomes the underlying foundation for everything that AWS is doing. It is going to leave the audience with it is not a single product, or unnecessarily a single tool, but this is what all the cloud is doing and it's moving there pretty fast. It's something that the users can get involved with even more. All right. >> Absolutely. >> Nate and Farrah, thank you so much for joining us. Look forward to watching Stackery and seeing the updates. Make sure to check out thecube.net for all of our coverage. We'll have a big coverage of course from AWS re:Invent in Las Vegas. Lots of other shows. I'm personally always excited about what's having in the serverless and emerging trends. Thanks so much for watching theCUBE. >> Thanks.

>> Announcer: From San Francisco, it's theCUBE. Covering OSIsoft PI World 2018. Brought to you by OSIsoft. >> Hey, welcome back everybody, Jeff Frick here with theCUBE. We're at the OSIsoft PI World 2018. About 3,000 executives here. Downtown San Francisco. Talking about operational technology. We talk a lot about IT on theCUBE, and the merger of IT and OT, but these guys are really coming at it from an OT point of view first. They've been at it for 40 years. So we're excited to be here, talk to some of the partners, practitioners, and really get insight as to what's going on in this industrial IT because a lot of it's happening here. And our next guest is Todd Nate, he's a global VP of energy programs for Nokia. Todd, great to see you. >> Thank you very much, Jeff. >> Jeff: And we're also joined by Michael Kanellos, the IoT analyst from OSIsoft. Michael, great to see you. >> Oh, thank you very much. >> Absolutely. So, first off, Nokia. We all know Nokia phones. We all had the flip. It's still everybody's favorite. (laughing) What are you doing in the energy business? >> Well, believe it or not, we have been in the energy business for many, many decades. And we work on the OT side of the house, in the mission critical environment. Which is why we're not often seen, but very mission critical. We work across both energy companies that are in the mining oil gas, as well as the electric utilities sector, encompassing distributed energy resources, generation, transmission, distribution, and the like. >> Right. So I know what GE does in those spaces. They make the turbines, they make the trains. What do you guys do? Where do you play in that ecosystem? >> We provide the pervasive connectivity for all of the mission critical communications that allow them to run efficiently. Today, the world has changed for most of our energy companies because their business models are under attack. And so they are forced to transform. And what we do is we're allowing them the ability to have a technology platform off which they can pivot, not only to be able to respond to the threats to the market, but also the opportunities in a very quick fashion. >> Right. So it's interesting. Digital transformation and energy. So we think obviously of renewables, right, is growing like crazy and the wind turbines are all over the place. What are some of the other ways that they're really kind of under fire? Is it, you know, emission standards that are getting tougher? What are some of the things that they're telling you they need help with? >> Yeah, well you mentioned regulation. So obviously regulation has gone up. You have changing of regulation that takes place so they need to accommodate that in very short notice. But you also have a very interactive environment. Where it used to be one way, we're now two way. And now you have communication coming from all of its participants in the market. So these participants are not only their customers, these participants are also third parties that are now come to play in their market, which used to be a captive market. >> Jeff: Right. >> So for them, it is an environment that is two way and a large volume of data and information transacting. And they need to be able to make sense of that data and be able to act on that data. And what we do is we provide that pervasive connectivity so that they can have that communication. >> And they're also looking for new revenue and business models. If you think of utility, everyone's getting more efficient. So actually the sale of electronics is actually going down in a lot of areas, but they just can't go to the next city over. So doing things like doing consulting services or doing like even selling their own software. To just new days to develop, you know, take that know-how they have, and see if they can get revenue that way. >> Right. So we talk, we do a IT shows, not as many OT shows, and, obviously, cloud data centers is a big topic. And we've all seen pictures of the beautiful colored pipes inside of a Google data center or an Amazon data center that they share every now and then. It's not quite the same in the industrial IoT space, right? These machines, you talk about environment. It's like literally environment. It's rain and storms and hail, bad weather, no connectivity. So I imagine you guys, I think you said before we turned on the cameras, you guys are offering private LTE and all sorts of solutions to help get that connectivity out of the data center and really out to the edge and these big devices on the edge, like locomotives and turbines. >> Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, so what we've found is there's been a confluence of many things on the market. We've seen the price of technology has gone down significantly. You have a scenario where the cost of technology and the feature functionality, so the cost of technology has gone down, but the feature functionality has gone up. And we see a disruption in the market with regard to how their business models for our customers are coming to play. So they're adding and subtracting assets. The key right now for our customers is they got to get a volume of data. They got to get the volume of data in so they can process it. We're involved not only in the cores of the network, but on the edge with machine edge computing. We have the visualization of data that has become very much important to our customers so they can make decisions. This is not only with regard to current assets, but then you also have your DER assets that can take many forms. Those DER assets can be around >> Jeff: What's a DER asset? >> A DER asset: wind, pv, you know, solar. >> Michael: Distributing energy resources. >> Jeff: Okay, okay. >> Storage, it can be a micronuclear facility. It can be a combined heat and cycle plant, for example. Gas plant. >> Right. >> So these are more distributed and they are more voluminous and they need to be able to communicate with those entities and those assets, not only for their health, but also to be able to manage the grid for which they're responsible. >> Right. So really interesting things. We've heard a number of times, as we always hear, and more today, about preventative maintenance. It's still unplanned downtime is still a big giant issue and still costs more, probably costs more than it ever has because of the efficiency. You lose something, don't quite have as much backup and redundancy as you used to have back in the day. So it's amazing that that's still such a big business use case to get out ahead of the curve on these assets. >> Wind is like the poster child for that. If you think about a big wind turbine. There's like thousands of moving parts inside there, right? Any of those could break. >> Jeff: Right. >> And if they do break, you have to sometimes take the entire turbine down. >> Jeff: Right. >> Take it back to the shop and bring it back up. So you do it well enough, if you can do it in advance >> Jeff: Right. >> Without doing major heart surgery on it, that's fantastic. >> The other thing is that it's just adding more sophistication into the generation and to the consumption based on the broader demand so that you can take advantage of cheaper rates at night or, you know, pump back into the grid when the rates are high, so. It's the amount of technology out to the edge to start to control these devices to pump that energy back into the grid. It's got to have changed significantly over the last couple years. >> Yeah, absolutely, and it's disrupting, it's not only disrupting the energy companies themselves, it's disrupting the client. Because you got to remember the energy companies, they don't want to be caught without enough power >> Jeff: Right. >> So they have to buy that power. They have to manage many more varied assets. Again it's two way. And then you also have the customer experience, where customers are demanding specific types of energy. So you may have customers that want clean energy. They may want the cheapest. They may want hydro. So that interaction real-time, is the world that we are in right now. >> Jeff: Right. >> It's not a future world. It's the world that we're in right now. So the retention of my customers as an energy company, very, very important because they're the ones that pay the bill. >> Jeff: Yeah. >> We, that environment, is where we are living today. Highly interactive environment, highly autonomous environment, and providing that connectivity, the pervasive connectivity, to enable that, whether it's machine to machine, whether it is client to customer, and vice versa, it's really an any to any environment, and that's what we set up. >> Jeff: Right. >> It's costing, to just add on that, like to energy storage, a battery system. If you have a lot of data, you can actually install a smaller battery system and then take little tinier sips so it actually lasts longer. >> Jeff: Right. >> So actually your return on investment, things could go massively way up if you're actually using the data correctly. >> Well and the funny thing, when you said clean energy, I thought you meant clean like clean for the machines to be able to execute their operation well. (laughing) Like they get at a data center, which is very different than out on the edge in a field, you know, an energy field or on the edge of a turbine where you don't have all that control like you have in a beautiful pristine data center. So it's a very different world out on the edge. >> Absolutely. >> So, Todd, last question. What are you doing here at PI World? What's kind of the vibe? What are you hoping to accomplish? What are you, you know, what have you seen and heard in the hallways that has Nokia here at PI World? >> Yeah, PI World's very interesting for us. And the reason it is is because the conversation here is different. When we're dealing with clients here at PI World, it is about solving something, right? It is about the use cases, it is about their business, it's about their balance sheet. And less about what you manufacture or sell. And so these conversations are driving what it is we do. We are very much engaged with OSIsoft when it comes to the visualization of data. And in the enablement of our customers to be able to access their data, share their data, anywhere anytime to any asset, whether it's human or physical asset. In order for them to not only thrive in this market, but be able to adapt their business models. So for us, a very exciting and much appreciated. >> Yeah, it's great. Thank you. >> Alright, we'll Michael and Todd thanks for spending a few minutes with us, sharing the story. >> Thank you, Jeff, appreciate it. >> Alright, I'm Jeff Frick. We are at OSIsoft PI World 2018, downtown San Francisco. Thanks for watching. (upbeat music)

>> Announcer: Live, from Orlando, Florida, it's theCube. Covering ServiceNow Knowledge17. Brought to you by ServiceNow. >> Welcome back to Orlando everybody, this is theCube, the leader in live tech coverage. My name is Dave Vellante, and I'm here with Jeff Frick, our cohost. This is Knowledge17, #Know17. Jim Hebb is here, the Advisory Director for People in Change at KPMG. And he's here with Nate Channel, the Enabling Technology Lead at JM Smucker and Company. Systems integrator, customer, gents, welcome to theCube. >> Thank you for having us. >> Thank you. >> So let's hear the story, JM Smucker, you told me off camera that you just started in November. Right? >> Nate: Right, we went live in November. >> Take us back to that decision point, where you said, "hey we need to do something here." What was that like? >> Well, I guess we were asked by the CHRO of Smucker to look into a current state assessment of their HR Organization. And from that, one of the things we discovered was that, the company is a family owned company, had grown organically over the years, had a very family type os environment, and while that is a big selling point for the company, it also resulted in a more relaxed approach to delivering HR services. >> Love the vocabulary. (group laughing) Relaxed approach. >> Relaxed approach, so essentially, if you were an employer manager and needed help from HR, you had to know who to go to. So you had to have a name, you had to go find them, if they weren't the right person, then you got passed to the next person. Certainly there was no way to record, track, have a collaborative, sort of tool to use for HR service requests. There was no way to report on information related to where things stand. Employees couldn't see where their service requests are it was email, phone call, stop by the desk. That was a gap that we thought, if you really wanted to transform the organization and really ratchet up the level of service, we needed to do something. >> A lot of tribal knowledge. But, now you're in IT, is that correct? >> I'm actually in HR. >> You are in HR. >> Is that where you guys started? You started in HR or? >> I actually joined the company a little less than a year ago. So the project was was already under way, when I came in. Yes, I did start in HR, and I think that, just coming into the organization, kind of seeing it where it was when I came in, and how everything was kind of fractured because we had gone through a lot of acquisitions and that's how we grew, and we grew very quickly. Nothing was really consolidated, so seeing this transformation has really been fantastic. >> But did you guys have ITSM installed or no? >> No, no. >> Okay, so the company started at .. >> Which is unusual right. >> Yeah, I was going to say. >> It started with HR and from there they have now decided to adopt the IDSM platform, >> Right. >> And are going live in a month or so I think. >> Yes. >> It's really interesting that they started with HR. >> So tell us about the implementation, how did it go, I mean a lot of people will share with us, it's sometimes very complex to implement, you chose a partner, to obviously reduce the complexity, share the risk. >> Yeah, so it felt very fast for us. From an IT perspective, we're not prone to doing anything agile. I think having that agile development life cycle come in was a shock to the system. It put us into the position where we had to really focus on what wanted and needed, very quickly. And we were able to do that, and I think we were able to put something in place that will benefit us in the future. And I think, it's benefiting us now. We've transformed our organization. >> And how did you get it in? Were things just breaking or how did you get the opportunity to provide the initiative to bring in this agile new tool? >> So it was really part of a broader HR transformation that we were doing with the company. We were looking at everything top to bottom, their entire HR operating model, their HR org structure, all of their HR processes, all of the HR technologies that we were conturently doing, a Workday implementation with them. Building a new shared services center, looking at their entire North American models. As part of that, this was just a natural piece of the puzzle that needed to be added. >> So a lot of people are confused and ServiceNow's trying to constantly explain to people, we don't compete with Workday. Talk to the practitioner, where does Workday leave off and ServiceNow pick up, if I'm an employee of Smucker, what do I interface with, am I talking to ServiceNow, am I talking to Workday, both? >> Actually our design, we have the portal in place. We have the HR service portal and that's really our gateway for our employees. So it's part of ServiceNow, but it leads them into Workday, and a lot of our employees associate those two as one. They think that if they're having a problem, or anything like that they need to access something, they go through HR Home, but they're thinking they're going right into our deck. >> Dave: It's an HR portal to them. >> Right, exactly. >> Dave: They don't really know or care what's at the back end. >> Exactly. >> Nor should they really. >> Nor should they. And that was presumably the design point? >> Nate: Right, right. >> Again, not always common, right, you hear different stories of different stovepipes, but you seem to have some success with this approach. >> We have, we always try to take it from the perspective of what does the employee manager need, and how do they want to interact with HR. So it's not about, HR often has more of an insular approach to, well, we're thinking compensation or benefits, or providing this type of function. Employees and mangers come and say, I have an issue and I need help with it. They don't really need to know, if this is comp or benefits, they can say, I have an issue with my paycheck, it might be a benefit deduction, it might be an incorrect calculation from payroll, it might be something related to retirement plan, so they don't need to figure that out and have to find where they need to go, they should be able to come to HR and get help, right from the start. >> So onboarding is the classic example. How has that, as a relatively new employee, how has it affected the onboarding process? >> We are still kind of hashing through onboarding right now. We're really focusing on the Workday side to get everything kind of ironed out perfectly before we truly bring ServiceNow as a part of that into it. But from any perspective where there's any kind of problem, we're directing our future employees to utilize the tool, as possible. >> Take us through the project, when did it start and how long did it take? >> It actually started with an RFP process. So we facilitated that, so we had five different providers that we were helping Smucker evaluate. Methodology approach, functionality, technical alignment, business and cultural alignment, cost. And from that RFP process ServiceNow came out on top. That was the selection point that was earlier in 2016, first quarter 2016. Because we were doing an entire transformation, we staged everything in sequential order in terms of what we were doing with Workday, Shared Services, redesign of operating model, all of that good stuff, and we ended up, as Nate said, launching, doing a soft launch, right after Thanksgiving for the ServiceNow platform, full launch with Workday, ServiceNow, Service Center, everything on the December 14th. >> And the business impact, so far is early days, but so far, and what's expected? >> It was completely different than anything we're used to, >> Dave: In a good way. (laughing) >> Yeah, absolutely, it was fantastic. I think our employee population really jumped on board very quickly. Instead of following that traditional HR, you know, pick up the phone or send an email, they're calling a Service Center, and they're following up on cases, instead of following up on emails. >> Jeff: Total relief. >> Yeah, I think we've definitely consolidated all of that into the ServiceNow platform. >> Alright gents, we got to leave it there. Yet another happy customer. It actually doesn't get boring after a while, I love to hear the stories, because things change so much, it used to be ITSM, and now we're talking lines of businesses et cetera, so gents, thanks very much for coming on theCube, appreciate it. >> Thank you, appreciate it. >> Thank you, thank you. >> You're welcome. Keep it right there everybody, we'll be back with our next guest. It's theCube, we're live from ServiceNow Knowledge17. Be right back.

>>Hi buddy, we're back. This is Dave Volante with the cube goes out to the shows. We extract the signal from the noise. Nate Silver's here. Nate, we've been saying that since 2010, rip you off. Hey Marcus feeder. Oh, you have that trademarks. Okay. So anyway, welcome to the cube. You man who needs no introduction, but in case you don't know Nate, uh, he's a very famous author, five 30 eight.com. Statistician influence, influential individual predictor of a lot of things including presidential elections. And uh, great to have you here. Great to be here. So we listened to your keynote this morning. We asked earlier if some of our audience, can you tweet it and you know, what would you ask Nate silver? So of course we got the predictable, how the red Sox going to do this year? Who's going to be in the world series? Are we going to attack Syria? >>Uh, will the fed E's or tightened? Of course we're down here. Who'd you vote for? Or they, you know, they all want to know. And of course, a lot of these questions you can't answer because it's too far out. But, uh, but anyway, again, welcome, welcome to the cube. Um, so I want to start by, uh, picking up on some of the themes in your keynote. Uh, you're here at the Tableau conference. Obviously it's all about about data. Uh, and you, your basic, one of your basic premises was that, um, people will misinterpret data, they'll just use data for their own own biases. You have been a controversial figure, right? A lot of people have accused you of, of bias. Um, how, what do you F how do you feel about that as a person who's, uh, you know, statistician, somebody who loves data? >>I think everyone has bias in the sense that we all have one relatively narrow perspective as compared to a big set of problems that we all are trying to analyze or solve or understand together. Um, you know, but I do think some of this actually comes down to, uh, not just bias, but kind of personal morality and ethics really. It seems weird to talk about it that way, but there are a lot of people involved in the political world who are operating to manipulate public opinion, um, and that don't really place a lot of value on the truth. Right. And I consider that kind of immoral. Um, but people like that I think don't really understand that someone else might act morally by actually just trying to discover the way the objective world is and trying to use science and research to, to uncover things. >>And so I think it's hard people to, because if they were in your shoes, they would try and manipulate the forecast and they would cheat and put their finger on their scale. They assume that anyone else would do the same thing cause they, they don't own any. Yeah. So will you, you've made some incredibly accurate predictions, uh, in the face of, of, of others that clearly had bias that, that, that, you know mispredicted um, so how did you feel when you got those, those attacks? Were you flabbergasted? Were you pissed? Were you hurt? I mean, all of the above having you move houses for, for you? I mean you get used to them with a lot of bullshit, right? You're not too surprised. Um, I guess it surprised me how, but how much the people who you know are pretty intelligent are willing to, to fool themselves and how specious arguments where meet and by the way, people are always constructing arguments for, for outcomes they happen to be rooting for. >>Right? It'd be one thing if you said, well I'm a Republican, but boy I think Obama's going to crush Romney electoral college or vice versa. But you should have an extra layer of scrutiny when you have a view that diverges from the consensus or what kind of the markets are saying. And by the way, you can go and they're betting Margaret's, you can go and you could have bet on the outcome of election bookies in the UK, other countries. Right. And they kind of had forecast similar to ours. We were actually putting their money where their mouth was. Agree that Obama was a. Not a lot, but a pretty heavy favorite route. Most of the last two months in the election. I wanted to ask you about prediction markets cause as you probably know, I mean the betting public are actually very efficient. Handicappers right over. >>So I'll throw a two to one shot is going to be to three to one is going to be a four to one, you know, more often than not. But what are your thoughts on, on prediction markets? I mean you just sort of betting markets, you'd just alluded it to them just recently or is that a, is that a good, well there a lot there then then I think the punditry right. I mean, you know, so with, with prediction markets you have a couple of issues. Number one is do you have enough, uh, liquidity, um, and my volume in the markets for them to be, uh, uh, optimal. Right. And I think the answer right now is maybe not exactly. And like these in trade type markets, knowing trade has been, has been shut down. In fact, it was pretty light trading volumes. It might've had people who stood to gain or lose, um, you know, thousands of dollars. >>Whereas in quote, unquote real markets, uh, the stakes are, are several orders of magnitude higher. If you look at what happened to, for example, just prices of common stocks a day after the election last year, um, oil and gas stocks lost billions of dollars of market capitalization after Romney lost. Uh, conversely, some, you know, green tech stocks or certain types of healthcare socks at benefit from Obamacare going into play gain hundreds of millions, billions of dollars in market capitalization. So real investors have to price in these political risks. Um, anyway, I would love to have see fully legal, uh, trading markets in the U S people can get bet kind of proper sums of money where you have, um, a lot of real capital going in and people can kind of hedge their economic risk a little bit more. But you know, they're, they're bigger and it's very hard to beat markets. They're not flawless. And there's a whole chapter in the book about how, you know, the minute you assume that markets are, are clairvoyant and perfect, then that's when they start to fail. >>Ironically enough. But they're very good. They're very tough to beat and they certainly provide a reality check in terms of providing people with, with real incentives to actually, you know, make a bet on, on their beliefs and people when they have financial incentives, uh, uh, to be accurate then a lot of bullshit. There's a tax on bullshit is one way. That's okay. I've got to ask him for anyway that you're still a baseball fan, right? Is that an in Detroit fan? Right. I'm a tiger. There's my bias. You remember the bird? It's too young to remember a little too. I, so I grew up, I was born in 78, so 84, the Kirk Gibson, Alan Trammell teams are kind of my, my earliest. So you definitely don't remember Mickey Lola cha. I used to be a big guy. That's right fan as well. But so, but Sony, right when Moneyball came out, we just were at the Vertica conference. >>We saw Billy being there and, and uh, when, when, when, when, when that book came out, I said Billy Bean's out of his mind for releasing all these secrets. And you alluded to in your talk today that other teams like the rays and like the red Sox have sort of started to adopt those techniques. At the same time, I feel like culturally when another one of your V and your Venn diagram, I don't want you vectors, uh, that, that Oakland's done a better job of that, that others may S they still culturally so pushing back, even the red Sox themselves, it can be argued, you know, went out and sort of violated the, the principles were of course Oakland A's can't cause they don't have a, have a, have a budget to do. So what's your take on Moneyball? Is the, is the strategy that he put forth sustainable or is it all going to be sort of level playing field eventually? >>I mean, you know, the strategy in terms of Oh fine guys that take a lot of walks, right? Um, I mean everyone realizes that now it's a fairly basic conclusion and it was kind of the sign of, of how far behind how many biases there were in the market for that, you know, use LBP instead of day. And I actually like, but that, that was arbitrage, you know, five or 10 years ago now, um, put butts in the seat, right? Man, if they win, I guess it does, but even the red Sox are winning and nobody goes to the games anymore. The red Sox, tons of empty seats, even for Yankees games. Well, it's, I mean they're also charging 200 bucks a ticket or something. you can get a ticket for 20, 30 bucks. But, but you know, but I, you know, I, I, I mean, first of all, the most emotional connection to baseball is that if your team is in pennant races, wins world series, right then that produces multimillion dollar increases in ticket sales and, and TV contracts down the road. >>So, um, in fact, you know, I think one thing is, is looking at the financial side, like modeling the martial impact of a win, but also kind of modeling. If you do kind of sign a free agent, then, uh, that signaling effect, how much does that matter for season ticket sales? So you could do some more kind of high finance stuff in baseball. But, but some of the low hanging fruit, I mean, you know, almost every team now has a Cisco analyst on their payroll or increasingly the distinctions aren't even as relevant anymore. Right? Where someone who's first in analytics is also listening to what the Scouts say. And you have organizations that you know, aren't making these kind of distinctions between stat heads and Scouts at all. They all kind of get along and it's all, you know, finding better ways, more responsible ways to, to analyze data. >>And basically you have the advantage of a very clear way of measure, measure success where, you know, do you win? That's the bottom line. Or do you make money or, or both. You can isolate guys Marshall contribution. I mean, you know, I am in the process now of hiring a bunch of uh, writers and editors and developers for five 38 right? So someone has a column and they do really well. How much of that is on the, the writer versus the ed or versus the brand of the site versus the guy at ESPN who promoted it or whatever else. Right. That's hard to say. But in baseball, everyone kind of takes their turn. It's very easy to measure each player's kind of marginal contribution to sort of balance and equilibrium and, and, and it's potentially achieved. But, and again, from your talk this morning modeling or volume of data doesn't Trump modeling, right? >>You need both. And you need culture. You need, you need, you know, you need volume of data, you need high quality data. You need, uh, a culture that actually has the right incentives align where you really do want to find a way to build a better product to make more money. Right? And again, they'll seem like, Oh, you know, how difficult should it be for a company to want to make more money and build better products. But, um, when you have large organizations, you have a lot of people who are, uh, who are thinking very short term or only about only about their P and L and not how the whole company as a whole is doing or have, you know, hangups or personality conflicts or, or whatever else. So, you know, a lot of success I think in business. Um, and certainly when it comes to use of analytics, it's just stripping away the things that, that get in the way from understanding and distract you. >>It's not some wave a magic wand and have some formula where you uncover all the secrets in the world. It's more like if you can strip away the noise there and you're going to have a much clearer understanding of, of what's really there. Uh, Nate, again, thanks so much for joining us. So kind of wanna expand on that a little bit. So when people think of Nate silver, sometimes they, you know, they think Nate silver analytics big data, but you're actually a S some of your positions are kind of, you take issue with some of the core notions of big data really around the, the, the importance of causality versus correlation. So, um, so we had Kenneth kookier on from, uh, the economist who wrote a book about big data a while back, the strata conference. And you know, he, in that book, they talk a lot about it really doesn't matter how valid anymore, if you know that your customers are gonna buy more products based on this dataset or this correlation that it doesn't really matter why. >>You just try to try to try to exploit that. Uh, but in your book you talk about, well and in the keynote today you talked about, well actually hypothesis testing coming in with some questions and actually looking for that causality is also important. Um, so, so what is your, what is your opinion of kind of, you know, all this hype around big data? Um, you know, you mentioned volume is important, but it's not the only thing. I mean, like, I mean, I'll tell you I'm, I'm kind of an empiricist about anything, right? So, you know, if it's true that merely finding a lot of correlations and kind of very high volume data sets will improve productivity. And how come we've had, you know, kind of such slow economic growth over the past 10 years, where is the tangible increase in patent growth or, or different measures of progress. >>And obviously there's a lot of noise in that data set as well. But you know, partly why both in the presentation today and in the book I kind of opened up with the, with the history is saying, you know, let's really look at the history of technology. It's a kind of fascinating, an understudied feel, the link between technology and progress and growth. But, um, it doesn't always go as planned. And I certainly don't think we've seen any kind of paradigm shift as far as, you know, technological, economic productivity in the world today. I mean, the thing to remember too is that, uh, uh, technology is always growing in and developing and that if you have roughly 3% economic growth per year exponential, that's a lot of growth, right? It's not even a straight line growth. It's like exponential growth. And to have 3% exponential growth compounding over how many years is a lot. >>So you're always going to have new technologies developing. Um, but what I, I'm suspicious that as people will say this one technology is, is a game changer relative to the whole history of civilization up until now. Um, and also, you know, again, a lot of technologies you look at kind of economic models where you have different factors or productivity. It's not usually an additive relationship. It's more a multiplicative relationships. So if you have a lot of data, but people who aren't very good at analyzing it, you have a lot of data but it's unstructured and unscrutinised you know, you're not going to get particularly good results by and large. Um, so I just want to talk a little bit about the, the kind of the, the cultural issue of adopting kind of analytics and, and becoming a data driven organization. And you talk a lot about, um, you know, really what you do is, is setting, um, you know, try to predict the probabilities of something happening, not really predicting what's going to happen necessarily. >>And you talked to New York, you know, today about, you know, knowledging where, you know, you're not, you're not 100% sure acknowledging that this is, you know, this is our best estimate based on the data. Um, but of course in business, you know, a lot of people, a lot of, um, importance is put on kind of, you know, putting on that front that you're, you know, what you're talking about. It's, you know, you be confident, you go in, this is gonna happen. And, and sometimes that can actually move markets and move decision-making. Um, how do you balance that in a, in a business environment where, you know, you want to keep, be realistic, but you want to, you know, put forth a confident, uh, persona. Well, you know, I mean, first of all, everyone, I think the answer is that you have to, uh, uh, kind of take a long time to build the narrative correctly and kind of get back to the first principles. >>And so at five 38, it's kind of a case where you have a dialogue with the readers of the site every day, right? But it's not that you can solve in one conversation. If you come in to a boss who you never talked to you before, you have to present some PowerPoint and you're like, actually this initiative has a, you know, 57% chance of succeeding and the baseline is 50% and it's really good cause the upside's high, right? Like you know, that's going to be tricky if you don't have a good and open dialogue. And it's another barrier by the way to success is that uh, you know, none of this big data stuff is going to be a solution for companies that have poor corporate cultures where you have trouble communicating ideas where you don't everyone on the same page. Um, you know, you need buy in from, from all throughout the organization, which means both you need senior level people who, uh, who understand the value of analytics. >>You also need analysts or junior level people who understand what business problems the company is trying to solve, what organizational goals are. Um, so I mean, how do you communicate? It's tricky, you know, maybe if you can't communicate it, then you find another firm or go, uh, go trade stocks and, and uh, and short that company if you're not violating like insider trading rules of, of various kinds. Um, you know, I mean, the one thing that seems to work better is if you can, uh, depict things visually. People intuitively grasp uncertainty. If you kind of portray it to them in a graphic environment, especially with interactive graphics, uh, more than they might've just kind of put numbers on a page. You know, one thing we're thinking about doing with the new 580 ESPN, we're hiring a lot of designers and developers is in case where there is uncertainty, then you can press a button, kind of like a slot, Michigan and simulate and outcome many times, then it'll make sense to people. Right? And they do that already for, you know, NCAA tournament stuff or NFL playoffs. Um, but that can help. >>So Nate, I asked you my, my partner John furry, who's often or normally the cohost of this show, uh, just just tweeted me asking about crowd spotting. So he's got this notion that there's all this exhaust out there, the social exhaustive social data. How do you, or do you, or do you see the potential to use that exhaust that's thrown off from the connected consumer to actually make predictions? Um, so I'm >>a, I guess probably mildly pessimistic about this for the reason being that, uh, a lot of this data is very new and so we don't really have a way to kind of calibrate a model based on it. So you can look and say, well, you know, let's say Twitter during the Republican primaries in 2016 that, Oh, Paul Ryan is getting five times as much favorable Twitter sentiment as Rick Santorum or whatever among Republicans. But, but what's that mean? You know, to put something into a model, you have to have enough history generally, um, where you can translate X into Y by means of some function or some formula. And a lot of data is so new where you don't have enough history to do that. And the other thing too is that, um, um, the demographics of who is using social media is changing a lot. Where we are right now you come to conference like this and everyone has you know, all their different accounts but, but we're not quite there yet in terms of the broader population. >>Um, you have a lot of kind of thought leaders now a lot of, you know, kind of young, smart urban tech geeks and they're not necessarily as representative of the population as a whole. That will over time the data will become more valuable. But if you're kind of calibrating expectations based on the way that at Twitter or Facebook were used in 2013 to expect that to be reliable when you want a high degree of precision three years from now, even six months from now is, is I think a little optimistic. Some sentiment though, we would agree with that. I mean sentiment is this concept of how many people are talking about a thumbs up, thumbs down. But to the extent that you can get metadata and make it more stable, longer term, you would see potential there is, I mean, there are environments where the terrain is shifting so fast that by the time you know, the forecast that you'd be interested in, right? >>Like things have already changed enough where like it's hard to do, to make good forecast. Right? And I think one of the kind of fundamental themes here, one of my critiques is some of the, uh, of, uh, the more optimistic interpretations of big data is that fundamentally people are, are, most people want a shortcut, right? Most people are, are fairly lazy like labor. What's the hot stock? Yeah. Right. Um, and so I'm worried whenever people talk about, you know, biased interpretations of, of the data or information, right? Whenever people say, Oh, this is going to solve my problems, I don't have to work very hard. You know, not usually true. Even if you look at sports, even steroids, performance enhancing drugs, the guys who really get the benefits of the steroids, they have to work their butts off, right? And then you have a synergy which hell. >>So they are very free free meal tickets in life when they are going to be gobbled up in competitive environments. So you know, uh, bigger datasets, faster data sets are going to be very powerful for people who have the right expertise and the right partners. But, but it's not going to make, uh, you know anyone to be able to kind of quit their job and go on the beach and sip my ties. So ne what are you working on these days as it relates to data? What's exciting you? Um, so with the, with the move to ESPN, I'm thinking more about, uh, you know, working with them on sports type projects, which is something having mostly cover politics. The past four or five years I've, I've kind of a lot of pent up ideas. So you know, looking at things in basketball for example, you have a team of five players and solving the problem of, of who takes the shot, when is the guy taking a good shot? >>Cause the shot clock's running out. When does a guy stealing a better opportunity from, from one of his teammates. Question. We want to look at, um, you know, we have the world cup the summer, so soccer is an interest of mine and we worked in 2010 with ESPN on something called the soccer power index. So continuing to improve that and roll that out. Um, you know, obviously baseball is very analytics rich as well, but you know, my near term focus might be on some of these sports projects. Yeah. So that the, I have to ask you a followup on the, on the soccer question. Is that an individual level? Is that a team level of both? So what we do is kind of uh, uh, one problem you have with the national teams, the Italian national team or Brazilian or the U S team is that they shift their personnel a lot. >>So they'll use certain guys for unimportant friendly matches for training matches that weren't actually playing in Brazil next year. So the system soccer power next we developed for ESPN actually it looks at the rosters and tries to make inferences about who is the a team so to speak and how much quality improvement do you have with them versus versus, uh, guys that are playing only in the marginal and important games. Okay. So you're able to mix and match teams and sort of predict on your flow state also from club league play to make inferences about how the national teams will come together. Um, but soccer is a case where, where we're going into here where we had a lot more data than we used to. Basically you had goals and bookings, I mean, and yellow cards and red cards and now you've collected a lot more data on how guys are moving throughout the field and how many passes there are, how much territory they're covering, uh, tackles and everything else. So that's becoming a lot smarter. Excellent. All right, Nate, I know you've got to go. I really appreciate the time. Thanks for coming on. The cube was a pleasure to meet you. Great. Thank you guys. All right. Keep it right there, everybody. We'll be back with our next guest. Dave Volante and Jeff Kelly. We're live at the Tableau user conference. This is the cube.

>> The rapid rise of ransomware attacks has added yet another challenge that business technology executives have to worry about these days, cloud storage, immutability, and air gaps have become a must have arrows in the quiver of organization's data protection strategies. But the important reality that practitioners have embraced is data protection, it can't be an afterthought or a bolt on it, has to be designed into the operational workflow of technology systems. The problem is, oftentimes, data protection is complicated with a variety of different products, services, software components, and storage formats, this is why object storage is moving to the forefront of data protection use cases because it's simpler and less expensive. The put data get data syntax has always been alluring, but object storage, historically, was seen as this low-cost niche solution that couldn't offer the performance required for demanding workloads, forcing customers to make hard tradeoffs between cost and performance. That has changed, the ascendancy of cloud storage generally in the S3 format specifically has catapulted object storage to become a first class citizen in a mainstream technology. Moreover, innovative companies have invested to bring object storage performance to parity with other storage formats, but cloud costs are often a barrier for many companies as the monthly cloud bill and egress fees in particular steadily climb. Welcome to Secure Storage Hot Takes, my name is Dave Vellante, and I'll be your host of the program today, where we introduce our community to Wasabi, a company that is purpose-built to solve this specific problem with what it claims to be the most cost effective and secure solution on the market. We have three segments today to dig into these issues, first up is David Friend, the well known entrepreneur who co-founded Carbonite and now Wasabi will then dig into the product with Drew Schlussel of Wasabi, and then we'll bring in the customer perspective with Kevin Warenda of the Hotchkiss School, let's get right into it. We're here with David Friend, the President and CEO and Co-founder of Wasabi, the hot storage company, David, welcome to theCUBE. >> Thanks Dave, nice to be here. >> Great to have you, so look, you hit a home run with Carbonite back when building a unicorn was a lot more rare than it has been in the last few years, why did you start Wasabi? >> Well, when I was still CEO of Wasabi, my genius co-founder Jeff Flowers and our chief architect came to me and said, you know, when we started this company, a state of the art disk drive was probably 500 gigabytes and now we're looking at eight terabyte, 16 terabyte, 20 terabyte, even 100 terabyte drives coming down the road and, you know, sooner or later the old architectures that were designed around these much smaller disk drives is going to run out of steam because, even though the capacities are getting bigger and bigger, the speed with which you can get data on and off of a hard drive isn't really changing all that much. And Jeff foresaw a day when the architectures sort of legacy storage like Amazon S3 and so forth was going to become very inefficient and slow. And so he came up with a new, highly parallelized architecture, and he said, I want to go off and see if I can make this work. So I said, you know, good luck go to it and they went off and spent about a year and a half in the lab, designing and testing this new storage architecture and when they got it working, I looked at the economics of this and I said, holy cow, we can sell cloud storage for a fraction of the price of Amazon, still make very good gross margins and it will be faster. So this is a whole new generation of object storage that you guys have invented. So I recruited a new CEO for Carbonite and left to found Wasabi because the market for cloud storage is almost infinite. You know, when you look at all the world's data, you know, IDC has these crazy numbers, 120 zetabytes or something like that and if you look at that as you know, the potential market size during that data, we're talking trillions of dollars, not billions and so I said, look, this is a great opportunity, if you look back 10 years, all the world's data was on-prem, if you look forward 10 years, most people agree that most of the world's data is going to live in the cloud, we're at the beginning of this migration, we've got an opportunity here to build an enormous company. >> That's very exciting. I mean, you've always been a trend spotter, and I want to get your perspectives on data protection and how it's changed. It's obviously on people's minds with all the ransomware attacks and security breaches, but thinking about your experiences and past observations, what's changed in data protection and what's driving the current very high interest in the topic? >> Well, I think, you know, from a data protection standpoint, immutability, the equivalent of the old worm tapes, but applied to cloud storage is, you know, become core to the backup strategies and disaster recovery strategies for most companies. And if you look at our partners who make backup software like Veeam, Convo, Veritas, Arcserve, and so forth, most of them are really taking advantage of mutable cloud storage as a way to protect customer data, customers backups from ransomware. So the ransomware guys are pretty clever and they, you know, they discovered early on that if someone could do a full restore from their backups, they're never going to pay a ransom. So, once they penetrate your system, they get pretty good at sort of watching how you do your backups and before they encrypt your primary data, they figure out some way to destroy or encrypt your backups as well, so that you can't do a full restore from your backups. And that's where immutability comes in. You know, in the old days you, you wrote what was called a worm tape, you know, write once read many, and those could not be overwritten or modified once they were written. And so we said, let's come up with an equivalent of that for the cloud, and it's very tricky software, you know, it involves all kinds of encryption algorithms and blockchain and this kind of stuff but, you know, the net result is if you store your backups in immutable buckets, in a product like Wasabi, you can't alter it or delete it for some period of time, so you could put a timer on it, say a year or six months or something like that, once that data is written, you know, there's no way you can go in and change it, modify it, or anything like that, including even Wasabi's engineers. >> So, David, I want to ask you about data sovereignty. It's obviously a big deal, I mean, especially for companies with the presence overseas, but what's really is any digital business these days, how should companies think about approaching data sovereignty? Is it just large firms that should be worried about this? Or should everybody be concerned? What's your point of view? >> Well, all around the world countries are imposing data sovereignty laws and if you're in the storage business, like we are, if you don't have physical data storage in-country, you're probably not going to get most of the business. You know, since Christmas we've built data centers in Toronto, London, Frankfurt, Paris, Sydney, Singapore, and I've probably forgotten one or two, but the reason we do that is twofold; one is, you know, if you're closer to the customer, you're going to get better response time, lower latency, and that's just a speed of light issue. But the bigger issue is, if you've got financial data, if you have healthcare data, if you have data relating to security, like surveillance videos, and things of that sort, most countries are saying that data has to be stored in-country, so, you can't send it across borders to some other place. And if your business operates in multiple countries, you know, dealing with data sovereignty is going to become an increasingly important problem. >> So in May of 2018, that's when the fines associated with violating GDPR went into effect and GDPR was like this main spring of privacy and data protection laws and we've seen it spawn other public policy things like the CCPA and think it continues to evolve, we see judgments in Europe against big tech and this tech lash that's in the news in the U.S. and the elimination of third party cookies, what does this all mean for data protection in the 2020s? >> Well, you know, every region and every country, you know, has their own idea about privacy, about security, about the use of even the use of metadata surrounding, you know, customer data and things of this sort. So, you know, it's getting to be increasingly complicated because GDPR, for example, imposes different standards from the kind of privacy standards that we have here in the U.S., Canada has a somewhat different set of data sovereignty issues and privacy issues so it's getting to be an increasingly complex, you know, mosaic of rules and regulations around the world and this makes it even more difficult for enterprises to run their own, you know, infrastructure because companies like Wasabi, where we have physical data centers in all kinds of different markets around the world and we've already dealt with the business of how to meet the requirements of GDPR and how to meet the requirements of some of the countries in Asia and so forth, you know, rather than an enterprise doing that just for themselves, if you running your applications or keeping your data in the cloud, you know, now a company like Wasabi with, you know, 34,000 customers, we can go to all the trouble of meeting these local requirements on behalf of our entire customer base and that's a lot more efficient and a lot more cost effective than if each individual country has to go deal with the local regulatory authorities. >> Yeah, it's compliance by design, not by chance. Okay, let's zoom out for the final question, David, thinking about the discussion that we've had around ransomware and data protection and regulations, what does it mean for a business's operational strategy and how do you think organizations will need to adapt in the coming years? >> Well, you know, I think there are a lot of forces driving companies to the cloud and, you know, and I do believe that if you come back five or 10 years from now, you're going to see majority of the world's data is going to be living in the cloud and I think storage, data storage is going to be a commodity much like electricity or bandwidth, and it's going to be done right, it will comply with the local regulations, it'll be fast, it'll be local, and there will be no strategic advantage that I can think of for somebody to stand up and run their own storage, especially considering the cost differential, you know, the most analysts think that the full, all in costs of running your own storage is in the 20 to 40 terabytes per month range, whereas, you know, if you migrate your data to the cloud, like Wasabi, you're talking probably $6 a month and so I think people are learning how to deal with the idea of an architecture that involves storing your data in the cloud, as opposed to, you know, storing your data locally. >> Wow, that's like a six X more expensive in the clouds, more than six X, all right, thank you, David,-- >> In addition to which, you know, just finding the people to babysit this kind of equipment has become nearly impossible today. >> Well, and with a focus on digital business, you don't want to be wasting your time with that kind of heavy lifting. David, thanks so much for coming in theCUBE, a great Boston entrepreneur, we've followed your career for a long time and looking forward to the future. >> Thank you. >> Okay, in a moment, Drew Schlussel will join me and we're going to dig more into product, you're watching theCUBE, the leader in enterprise and emerging tech coverage, keep it right there. ♪ Whoa ♪ ♪ Brenda in sales got an email ♪ ♪ Click here for a trip to Bombay ♪ ♪ It's not even called Bombay anymore ♪ ♪ But you clicked it anyway ♪ ♪ And now our data's been held hostage ♪ ♪ And now we're on sinking ship ♪ ♪ And a hacker's in our system ♪ ♪ Just 'cause Brenda wanted a trip ♪ ♪ She clicked on something stupid ♪ ♪ And our data's out of our control ♪ ♪ Into the hands of a hacker's ♪ ♪ And he's a giant asshole. ♪ ♪ He encrypted it in his basement ♪ ♪ He wants a million bucks for the key ♪ ♪ And I'm pretty sure he's 15 ♪ ♪ And still going through puberty ♪ ♪ I know you didn't mean to do us wrong ♪ ♪ But now I'm dealing with this all week long ♪ ♪ To make you all aware ♪ ♪ Of all this ransomware ♪ ♪ That is why I'm singing you this song ♪ ♪ C'mon ♪ ♪ Take it from me ♪ ♪ The director of IT ♪ ♪ Don't click on that email from a prince Nairobi ♪ ♪ 'Cuz he's not really a prince ♪ ♪ Now our data's locked up on our screen ♪ ♪ Controlled by a kid who's just fifteen ♪ ♪ And he's using our money to buy a Ferrari ♪ (gentle music) >> Joining me now is Drew Schlussel, who is the Senior Director of Product Marketing at Wasabi, hey Drew, good to see you again, thanks for coming back in theCUBE. >> Dave, great to be here, great to see you. >> All right, let's get into it. You know, Drew, prior to the pandemic, Zero Trust, just like kind of like digital transformation was sort of a buzzword and now it's become a real thing, almost a mandate, what's Wasabi's take on Zero Trust. >> So, absolutely right, it's been around a while and now people are paying attention, Wasabi's take is Zero Trust is a good thing. You know, there are too many places, right, where the bad guys are getting in. And, you know, I think of Zero Trust as kind of smashing laziness, right? It takes a little work, it takes some planning, but you know, done properly and using the right technologies, using the right vendors, the rewards are, of course tremendous, right? You can put to rest the fears of ransomware and having your systems compromised. >> Well, and we're going to talk about this, but there's a lot of process and thinking involved and, you know, design and your Zero Trust and you don't want to be wasting time messing with infrastructure, so we're going to talk about that, there's a lot of discussion in the industry, Drew, about immutability and air gaps, I'd like you to share Wasabi's point of view on these topics, how do you approach it and what makes Wasabi different? >> So, in terms of air gap and immutability, right, the beautiful thing about object storage, which is what we do all the time is that it makes it that much easier, right, to have a secure immutable copy of your data someplace that's easy to access and doesn't cost you an arm and a leg to get your data back. You know, we're working with some of the best, you know, partners in the industry, you know, we're working with folks like, you know, Veeam, Commvault, Arc, Marquee, MSP360, all folks who understand that you need to have multiple copies of your data, you need to have a copy stored offsite, and that copy needs to be immutable and we can talk a little bit about what immutability is and what it really means. >> You know, I wonder if you could talk a little bit more about Wasabi's solution because, sometimes people don't understand, you actually are a cloud, you're not building on other people's public clouds and this storage is the one use case where it actually makes sense to do that, tell us a little bit more about Wasabi's approach and your solution. >> Yeah, I appreciate that, so there's definitely some misconception, we are our own cloud storage service, we don't run on top of anybody else, right, it's our systems, it's our software deployed globally and we interoperate because we adhere to the S3 standard, we interoperate with practically hundreds of applications, primarily in this case, right, we're talking about backup and recovery applications and it's such a simple process, right? I mean, just about everybody who's anybody in this business protecting data has the ability now to access cloud storage and so we've made it really simple, in many cases, you'll see Wasabi as you know, listed in the primary set of available vendors and, you know, put in your private keys, make sure that your account is locked down properly using, let's say multifactor authentication, and you've got a great place to store copies of your data securely. >> I mean, we just heard from David Friend, if I did my math right, he was talking about, you know, 1/6 the cost per terabyte per month, maybe even a little better than that, how are you able to achieve such attractive economics? >> Yeah, so, you know, I can't remember how to translate my fractions into percentages, but I think we talk a lot about being 80%, right, less expensive than the hyperscalers. And you know, we talked about this at Vermont, right? There's some secret sauce there and you know, we take a different approach to how we utilize the raw capacity to the effective capacity and the fact is we're also not having to run, you know, a few hundred other services, right? We do storage, plain and simple, all day, all the time, so we don't have to worry about overhead to support, you know, up and coming other services that are perhaps, you know, going to be a loss leader, right? Customers love it, right, they see the fact that their data is growing 40, 80% year over year, they know they need to have some place to keep it secure, and, you know, folks are flocking to us in droves, in fact, we're seeing a tremendous amount of migration actually right now, multiple petabytes being brought to Wasabi because folks have figured out that they can't afford to keep going with their current hyperscaler vendor. >> And immutability is a feature of your product, right? What the feature called? Can you double-click on that a little bit? >> Yeah, absolutely. So, the term in S3 is Object Lock and what that means is your application will write an object to cloud storage, and it will define a retention period, let's say a week. And for that period, that object is immutable, untouchable, cannot be altered in any way, shape, or form, the application can't change it, the system administration can't change it, Wasabi can't change it, okay, it is truly carved in stone. And this is something that it's been around for a while, but you're seeing a huge uptick, right, in adoption and support for that feature by all the major vendors and I named off a few earlier and the best part is that with immutability comes some sense of, well, it comes with not just a sense of security, it is security. Right, when you have data that cannot be altered by anybody, even if the bad guys compromise your account, they steal your credentials, right, they can't take away the data and that's a beautiful thing, a beautiful, beautiful thing. >> And you look like an S3 bucket, is that right? >> Yeah, I mean, we're fully compatible with the S3 API, so if you're using S3 API based applications today, it's a very simple matter of just kind of redirecting where you want to store your data, beautiful thing about backup and recovery, right, that's probably the simplest application, simple being a relative term, as far as lift and shift, right? Because that just means for your next full, right, point that at Wasabi, retain your other fulls, you know, for whatever 30, 60, 90 days, and then once you've kind of made that transition from vine to vine, you know, you're often running with Wasabi. >> I talked to my open about the allure of object storage historically, you know, the simplicity of the get put syntax, but what about performance? Are you able to deliver performance that's comparable to other storage formats? >> Oh yeah, absolutely, and we've got the performance numbers on the site to back that up, but I forgot to answer something earlier, right, you said that immutability is a feature and I want to make it very clear that it is a feature but it's an API request. Okay, so when you're talking about gets and puts and so forth, you know, the comment you made earlier about being 80% more cost effective or 80% less expensive, you know, that API call, right, is typically something that the other folks charge for, right, and I think we used the metaphor earlier about the refrigerator, but I'll use a different metaphor today, right? You can think of cloud storage as a magical coffee cup, right? It gets as big as you want to store as much coffee as you want and the coffee's always warm, right? And when you want to take a sip, there's no charge, you want to, you know, pop the lid and see how much coffee is in there, no charge, and that's an important thing, because when you're talking about millions or billions of objects, and you want to get a list of those objects, or you want to get the status of the immutable settings for those objects, anywhere else it's going to cost you money to look at your data, with Wasabi, no additional charge and that's part of the thing that sets us apart. >> Excellent, so thank you for that. So, you mentioned some partners before, how do partners fit into the Wasabi story? Where do you stop? Where do they pick up? You know, what do they bring? Can you give us maybe, a paint a picture for us example, or two? >> Sure, so, again, we just do storage, right, that is our sole purpose in life is to, you know, to safely and securely store our customer's data. And so they're working with their application vendors, whether it's, you know, active archive, backup and recovery, IOT, surveillance, media and entertainment workflows, right, those systems already know how to manage the data, manage the metadata, they just need some place to keep the data that is being worked on, being stored and so forth. Right, so just like, you know, plugging in a flash drive on your laptop, right, you literally can plug in Wasabi as long as your applications support the API, getting started is incredibly easy, right, we offer a 30-day trial, one terabyte, and most folks find that within, you know, probably a few hours of their POC, right, it's giving them everything they need in terms of performance, in terms of accessibility, in terms of sovereignty, I'm guessing you talked to, you know, Dave Friend earlier about data sovereignty, right? We're global company, right, so there's got to be probably, you know, wherever you are in the world some place that will satisfy your sovereignty requirements, as well as your compliance requirements. >> Yeah, we did talk about sovereignty, Drew, this is really, what's interesting to me, I'm a bit of a industry historian, when I look back to the early days of cloud, I remember the large storage companies, you know, their CEOs would say, we're going to have an answer for the cloud and they would go out, and for instance, I know one bought competitor of Carbonite, and then couldn't figure out what to do with it, they couldn't figure out how to compete with the cloud in part, because they were afraid it was going to cannibalize their existing business, I think another part is because they just didn't have that imagination to develop an architecture that in a business model that could scale to see that you guys have done that is I love it because it brings competition, it brings innovation and it helps lower clients cost and solve really nagging problems. Like, you know, ransomware, of mutability and recovery, I'll give you the last word, Drew. >> Yeah, you're absolutely right. You know, the on-prem vendors, they're not going to go away anytime soon, right, there's always going to be a need for, you know, incredibly low latency, high bandwidth, you know, but, you know, not all data's hot all the time and by hot, I mean, you know, extremely hot, you know, let's take, you know, real time analytics for, maybe facial recognition, right, that requires sub-millisecond type of processing. But once you've done that work, right, you want to store that data for a long, long time, and you're going to want to also tap back into it later, so, you know, other folks are telling you that, you know, you can go to these like, you know, cold glacial type of tiered storage, yeah, don't believe the hype, you're still going to pay way more for that than you would with just a Wasabi-like hot cloud storage system. And, you know, we don't compete with our partners, right? We compliment, you know, what they're bringing to market in terms of the software vendors, in terms of the hardware vendors, right, we're a beautiful component for that hybrid cloud architecture. And I think folks are gravitating towards that, I think the cloud is kind of hitting a new gear if you will, in terms of adoption and recognition for the security that they can achieve with it. >> All right, Drew, thank you for that, definitely we see the momentum, in a moment, Drew and I will be back to get the customer perspective with Kevin Warenda, who's the Director of Information technology services at The Hotchkiss School, keep it right there. >> Hey, I'm Nate, and we wrote this song about ransomware to educate people, people like Brenda. >> Oh, God, I'm so sorry. We know you are, but Brenda, you're not alone, this hasn't just happened to you. >> No! ♪ Colonial Oil Pipeline had a guy ♪ ♪ who didn't change his password ♪ ♪ That sucks ♪ ♪ His password leaked, the data was breached ♪ ♪ And it cost his company 4 million bucks ♪ ♪ A fake update was sent to people ♪ ♪ Working for the meat company JBS ♪ ♪ That's pretty clever ♪ ♪ Instead of getting new features, they got hacked ♪ ♪ And had to pay the largest crypto ransom ever ♪ ♪ And 20 billion dollars, billion with a b ♪ ♪ Have been paid by companies in healthcare ♪ ♪ If you wonder buy your premium keeps going ♪ ♪ Up, up, up, up, up ♪ ♪ Now you're aware ♪ ♪ And now the hackers they are gettin' cocky ♪ ♪ When they lock your data ♪ ♪ You know, it has gotten so bad ♪ ♪ That they demand all of your money and it gets worse ♪ ♪ They go and the trouble with the Facebook ad ♪ ♪ Next time, something seems too good to be true ♪ ♪ Like a free trip to Asia! ♪ ♪ Just check first and I'll help before you ♪ ♪ Think before you click ♪ ♪ Don't get fooled by this ♪ ♪ Who isn't old enough to drive to school ♪ ♪ Take it from me, the director of IT ♪ ♪ Don't click on that email from a prince in Nairobi ♪ ♪ Because he's not really a prince ♪ ♪ Now our data's locked up on our screen ♪ ♪ Controlled by a kid who's just fifteen ♪ ♪ And he's using our money to buy a Ferrari ♪ >> It's a pretty sweet car. ♪ A kid without facial hair, who lives with his mom ♪ ♪ To learn more about this go to wasabi.com ♪ >> Hey, don't do that. ♪ Cause if we had Wasabi's immutability ♪ >> You going to ruin this for me! ♪ This fifteen-year-old wouldn't have on me ♪ (gentle music) >> Drew and I are pleased to welcome Kevin Warenda, who's the Director of Information Technology Services at The Hotchkiss School, a very prestigious and well respected boarding school in the beautiful Northwest corner of Connecticut, hello, Kevin. >> Hello, it's nice to be here, thanks for having me. >> Yeah, you bet. Hey, tell us a little bit more about The Hotchkiss School and your role. >> Sure, The Hotchkiss School is an independent boarding school, grades nine through 12, as you said, very prestigious and in an absolutely beautiful location on the deepest freshwater lake in Connecticut, we have 500 acre main campus and a 200 acre farm down the street. My role as the Director of Information Technology Services, essentially to oversee all of the technology that supports the school operations, academics, sports, everything we do on campus. >> Yeah, and you've had a very strong history in the educational field, you know, from that lens, what's the unique, you know, or if not unique, but the pressing security challenge that's top of mind for you? >> I think that it's clear that educational institutions are a target these days, especially for ransomware. We have a lot of data that can be used by threat actors and schools are often underfunded in the area of IT security, IT in general sometimes, so, I think threat actors often see us as easy targets or at least worthwhile to try to get into. >> Because specifically you are potentially spread thin, underfunded, you got students, you got teachers, so there really are some, are there any specific data privacy concerns as well around student privacy or regulations that you can speak to? >> Certainly, because of the fact that we're an independent boarding school, we operate things like even a health center, so, data privacy regulations across the board in terms of just student data rights and FERPA, some of our students are under 18, so, data privacy laws such as COPPA apply, HIPAA can apply, we have PCI regulations with many of our financial transactions, whether it be fundraising through alumni development, or even just accepting the revenue for tuition so, it's a unique place to be, again, we operate very much like a college would, right, we have all the trappings of a private college in terms of all the operations we do and that's what I love most about working in education is that it's all the industries combined in many ways. >> Very cool. So let's talk about some of the defense strategies from a practitioner point of view, then I want to bring in Drew to the conversation so what are the best practice and the right strategies from your standpoint of defending your data? >> Well, we take a defense in-depth approach, so we layer multiple technologies on top of each other to make sure that no single failure is a key to getting beyond those defenses, we also keep it simple, you know, I think there's some core things that all organizations need to do these days in including, you know, vulnerability scanning, patching , using multifactor authentication, and having really excellent backups in case something does happen. >> Drew, are you seeing any similar patterns across other industries or customers? I mean, I know we're talking about some uniqueness in the education market, but what can we learn from other adjacent industries? >> Yeah, you know, Kevin is spot on and I love hearing what he's doing, going back to our prior conversation about Zero Trust, right, that defense in-depth approach is beautifully aligned, right, with the Zero Trust approach, especially things like multifactor authentication, always shocked at how few folks are applying that very, very simple technology and across the board, right? I mean, Kevin is referring to, you know, financial industry, healthcare industry, even, you know, the security and police, right, they need to make sure that the data that they're keeping, evidence, right, is secure and immutable, right, because that's evidence. >> Well, Kevin, paint a picture for us, if you would. So, you were primarily on-prem looking at potentially, you know, using more cloud, you were a VMware shop, but tell us, paint a picture of your environment, kind of the applications that you support and the kind of, I want to get to the before and the after Wasabi, but start with kind of where you came from. >> Sure, well, I came to The Hotchkiss School about seven years ago and I had come most recently from public K12 and municipal, so again, not a lot of funding for IT in general, security, or infrastructure in general, so Nutanix was actually a hyperconverged solution that I implemented at my previous position. So when I came to Hotchkiss and found mostly on-prem workloads, everything from the student information system to the card access system that students would use, financial systems, they were almost all on premise, but there were some new SaaS solutions coming in play, we had also taken some time to do some business continuity, planning, you know, in the event of some kind of issue, I don't think we were thinking about the pandemic at the time, but certainly it helped prepare us for that, so, as different workloads were moved off to hosted or cloud-based, we didn't really need as much of the on-premise compute and storage as we had, and it was time to retire that cluster. And so I brought the experience I had with Nutanix with me, and we consolidated all that into a hyper-converged platform, running Nutanix AHV, which allowed us to get rid of all the cost of the VMware licensing as well and it is an easier platform to manage, especially for small IT shops like ours. >> Yeah, AHV is the Acropolis hypervisor and so you migrated off of VMware avoiding the VTax avoidance, that's a common theme among Nutanix customers and now, did you consider moving into AWS? You know, what was the catalyst to consider Wasabi as part of your defense strategy? >> We were looking at cloud storage options and they were just all so expensive, especially in egress fees to get data back out, Wasabi became across our desks and it was such a low barrier to entry to sign up for a trial and get, you know, terabyte for a month and then it was, you know, $6 a month for terabyte. After that, I said, we can try this out in a very low stakes way to see how this works for us. And there was a couple things we were trying to solve at the time, it wasn't just a place to put backup, but we also needed a place to have some files that might serve to some degree as a content delivery network, you know, some of our software applications that are deployed through our mobile device management needed a place that was accessible on the internet that they could be stored as well. So we were testing it for a couple different scenarios and it worked great, you know, performance wise, fast, security wise, it has all the features of S3 compliance that works with Nutanix and anyone who's familiar with S3 permissions can apply them very easily and then there was no egress fees, we can pull data down, put data up at will, and it's not costing as any extra, which is excellent because especially in education, we need fixed costs, we need to know what we're going to spend over a year before we spend it and not be hit with, you know, bills for egress or because our workload or our data storage footprint grew tremendously, we need that, we can't have the variability that the cloud providers would give us. >> So Kevin, you explained you're hypersensitive about security and privacy for obvious reasons that we discussed, were you concerned about doing business with a company with a funny name? Was it the trial that got you through that knothole? How did you address those concerns as an IT practitioner? >> Yeah, anytime we adopt anything, we go through a risk review. So we did our homework and we checked the funny name really means nothing, there's lots of companies with funny names, I think we don't go based on the name necessarily, but we did go based on the history, understanding, you know, who started the company, where it came from, and really looking into the technology and understanding that the value proposition, the ability to provide that lower cost is based specifically on the technology in which it lays down data. So, having a legitimate, reasonable, you know, excuse as to why it's cheap, we weren't thinking, well, you know, you get what you pay for, it may be less expensive than alternatives, but it's not cheap, you know, it's reliable, and that was really our concern. So we did our homework for sure before even starting the trial, but then the trial certainly confirmed everything that we had learned. >> Yeah, thank you for that. Drew, explain the whole egress charge, we hear a lot about that, what do people need to know? >> First of all, it's not a funny name, it's a memorable name, Dave, just like theCUBE, let's be very clear about that, second of all, egress charges, so, you know, other storage providers charge you for every API call, right? Every get, every put, every list, everything, okay, it's part of their process, it's part of how they make money, it's part of how they cover the cost of all their other services, we don't do that. And I think, you know, as Kevin has pointed out, right, that's a huge differentiator because you're talking about a significant amount of money above and beyond what is the list price. In fact, I would tell you that most of the other storage providers, hyperscalers, you know, their list price, first of all, is, you know, far exceeding anything else in the industry, especially what we offer and then, right, their additional cost, the egress costs, the API requests can be two, three, 400% more on top of what you're paying per terabyte. >> So, you used a little coffee analogy earlier in our conversation, so here's what I'm imagining, like I have a lot of stuff, right? And I had to clear up my bar and I put some stuff in storage, you know, right down the street and I pay them monthly, I can't imagine having to pay them to go get my stuff, that's kind of the same thing here. >> Oh, that's a great metaphor, right? That storage locker, right? You know, can you imagine every time you want to open the door to that storage locker and look inside having to pay a fee? >> No, that would be annoying. >> Or, every time you pull into the yard and you want to put something in that storage locker, you have to pay an access fee to get to the yard, you have to pay a door opening fee, right, and then if you want to look and get an inventory of everything in there, you have to pay, and it's ridiculous, it's your data, it's your storage, it's your locker, you've already paid the annual fee, probably, 'cause they gave you a discount on that, so why shouldn't you have unfettered access to your data? That's what Wasabi does and I think as Kevin pointed out, right, that's what sets us completely apart from everybody else. >> Okay, good, that's helpful, it helps us understand how Wasabi's different. Kevin, I'm always interested when I talk to practitioners like yourself in learning what you do, you know, outside of the technology, what are you doing in terms of educating your community and making them more cyber aware? Do you have training for students and faculty to learn about security and ransomware protection, for example? >> Yes, cyber security awareness training is definitely one of the required things everyone should be doing in their organizations. And we do have a program that we use and we try to make it fun and engaging too, right, this is often the checking the box kind of activity, insurance companies require it, but we want to make it something that people want to do and want to engage with so, even last year, I think we did one around the holidays and kind of pointed out the kinds of scams they may expect in their personal life about, you know, shipping of orders and time for the holidays and things like that, so it wasn't just about protecting our school data, it's about the fact that, you know, protecting their information is something do in all aspects of your life, especially now that the folks are working hybrid often working from home with equipment from the school, the stakes are much higher and people have a lot of our data at home and so knowing how to protect that is important, so we definitely run those programs in a way that we want to be engaging and fun and memorable so that when they do encounter those things, especially email threats, they know how to handle them. >> So when you say fun, it's like you come up with an example that we can laugh at until, of course, we click on that bad link, but I'm sure you can come up with a lot of interesting and engaging examples, is that what you're talking about, about having fun? >> Yeah, I mean, sometimes they are kind of choose your own adventure type stories, you know, they stop as they run, so they're telling a story and they stop and you have to answer questions along the way to keep going, so, you're not just watching a video, you're engaged with the story of the topic, yeah, and that's what I think is memorable about it, but it's also, that's what makes it fun, you're not just watching some talking head saying, you know, to avoid shortened URLs or to check, to make sure you know the sender of the email, no, you're engaged in a real life scenario story that you're kind of following and making choices along the way and finding out was that the right choice to make or maybe not? So, that's where I think the learning comes in. >> Excellent. Okay, gentlemen, thanks so much, appreciate your time, Kevin, Drew, awesome having you in theCUBE. >> My pleasure, thank you. >> Yeah, great to be here, thanks. >> Okay, in a moment, I'll give you some closing thoughts on the changing world of data protection and the evolution of cloud object storage, you're watching theCUBE, the leader in high tech enterprise coverage. >> Announcer: Some things just don't make sense, like showing up a little too early for the big game. >> How early are we? >> Couple months. Popcorn? >> Announcer: On and off season, the Red Sox cover their bases with affordable, best in class cloud storage. >> These are pretty good seats. >> Hey, have you guys seen the line from the bathroom? >> Announcer: Wasabi Hot Cloud Storage, it just makes sense. >> You don't think they make these in left hand, do you? >> We learned today how a serial entrepreneur, along with his co-founder saw the opportunity to tap into the virtually limitless scale of the cloud and dramatically reduce the cost of storing data while at the same time, protecting against ransomware attacks and other data exposures with simple, fast storage, immutability, air gaps, and solid operational processes, let's not forget about that, okay? People and processes are critical and if you can point your people at more strategic initiatives and tasks rather than wrestling with infrastructure, you can accelerate your process redesign and support of digital transformations. 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>>Okay. We're back here at the cube. We're in the middle of all the action at mobile world. Cause we're in cloud city, uh, physically in onset here, we got the virtual space. People are watching remotely. We do a remote interviews, but now we're in person with. Who's the transformational leader, head of innovation in his previous Zane telecom, 50 million customers, big projects. You've seen it all, you know, you know all about the operators and you know about innovation. Those are two great topics that we're going to talk about. Thanks for coming on. Thank you. Thank you for having me. So we were talking about on the open, uh, with Chloe this morning about the difference between building and operating and operators. Technically it's in the definition of running large networks, but now the change is here. You've got cloud scale, you've got edge developing with 5g, open, ran for standardization and off the shelf equipment that will give more infrastructure surface area, which will bring more innovation. A lot of change, a lot of build-out. This is a mindset change you want to it's like war time, peace time. It's not a mature market. It's a growing turbulent opportunity and the trillions of dollars at stake. And, um, >>I, I believe that we as humans on anything that we do so much of our learning comes from doing, and whatever you do is what you learn. So what have we, as an operator's been doing, we have been buying things. So our learning has been on procurement, how to do a business casing, how to get approvals, but not necessarily how to really introduce something new to our customers. And what has, what has said to us as an industry is that all the innovation and there's been a lot of innovation on communication space has been done either by the handset people or has been done by the internet people, but not so much as some operators. So I think that's really something that you have to have to change, but you have to change what you learn. You have to change how you actually do it. >>It's interesting. You know, I'm very pro telecom, but people think I'm, I'm not because I tend to criticize and pontificate around the change. But if you look at the telecon, it's been a bunch of dumb pipes and that's been a good thing and it's been reliable. We've had great connectivity growth. The internet was stable during the pandemic. It literally saved people's lives and change things that we survived and it worked great. But now when you have applications and infrastructure as code, new opportunities are going to be forcing that change quicker. So it's not so much, it needs to radically change. It just needs to get more versatile, more >>Get on the >>Program. So if you look what has happened on other industries, WhatsApp, how the internet payers do it, how does apple do it? How does Google do it? How does Facebook do it? They are using these new technologies. They are using cloud first approaches. They are building huge scale and they able to innovate. So the way I'm looking at it, that you guys are an operator you need to get on the program. And it's not, it's not the question. Should I do it? Should I not do it? Question is how do you do it? It's not the question when you should do it, you should do it. Now, the question is, how do you do it? How do you get started? I think, no, I think >>You're exactly right. It's in the here and now we're going to have a exclusive Google news conference later in the day, but you've mentioned the cloud players. If you look at the success of say Android, Android is a great use case that I think might be something that you can look at to the telecom industry and say, Hmm, how open source software changed the handset business? I think there's kind of a movement here in the telco space. And this ecosystem where you hear open, you got the Linux foundation participated with the software group for Iran. You got other things happening with open gardens, not walled gardens. Interesting. What's your take on how the, the innovation from the software side might come in here because you want to preserve the legacy operational stability, but bringing in new >>For you to be able to do a new, you need to have those software skills, because that's how the new things happen. You have to build them, you have to program them. But then the, then the issue is that your organization, most likely something good for this. So you don't have the designers. You don't have the software engineers, you don't have, uh, how to do customer experience, how to do, how to do the planning. You don't have it. So then the, then the challenge is how are you going to do that? And I'm a big saver off of operators starting to build some of the internal teams, have them separate teams and have them start to trial on these things. Give don't be so hard on yourself, allow yourself to try and try. Some things, allow yourself to fail. Don't make them huge programs because then the failure becomes a huge issue also. And then once you learn, once you know how to do it, then scale it up. But yes, these new skills software, you have to do it. And open is very well. >>You know, we were talking yesterday about this new world where feature creep used to be a bad thing. But now with cloud scale, you can develop rapid features quickly and get data and then abandon those things quickly. The time to do that is now part of the development process. So as software changes, you're starting to see the human resources configurations, where teams are formed differently. What's your take on this? Because end to end workloads can have multiple layers on an SRE, an operator, a developer, and a UX person, all on one team. I >>Agree. And I think that, and this is not something we have to invent as a telecom industry. Let's just go look at what the software guys are doing, right? So for decades, over the better part of a decade, there have been having HR teams. They're having the actual, working more working on sprains. All the tools already exist. All it's, it's all available for us. So all we have to do is just look at how they are doing that and start to use some of those practices and on our business. And by the way, we have been trying, this is not very good at it because we tend to kind of take it to the previous way of doing patients. And then we get ourselves into trouble. You know, >>It's the classic old playbook. We're good at procuring things. We know how to get that email, checking the list, done cost efficiency, drive more revenue chip away at it, moved the ball down the field slowly. Now the new playbook is agility, software economics, software playbook. So I have to ask you on, on that piece of it, how do you think the operators are psychologically right now? Are they, are they have a frog in boiling water? Do they know what's happening? Are they open to it? Or they just need more repetition? What's the psychology of the, with the progress and the progress bar of the operators relative to the trends. >>I think they might be a little bit desperate, right? So also telecom people. I like to think they're relatively smart people. They are not dummies. They know what they are doing, but th there's 30 years of history, maybe more and there's large organizations, maybe thousands of people who are, who are, who they have to work with. So somehow you have to have to figure out how do you get these new skills? And, and we're getting older. Also. I was in 1995, working for telecom. TSM standard loans. We were young at that point. I'm not young anymore. >>So this is your whole experience. I appreciate that. Well, >>I mean, old is good because now if you look at, I mean, I would, again, not to bring up ageism, but um, young, young guns, they never really loaded a Linux operating system before they never really wired splice cable. Um, and also there's also the systems thinking. And I think one of the things that's coming out of this show, that's clear to us here at the cube is if you're a systems thinker you tend to do well because the edge Springs distributed computing to the table. So, you know, I think this experience collision with the young talent. Yeah. >>And I had a, a program where I actively wanted to bring new talent into the organization. We didn't want to hire it. As people have five to 10 years of working experience. Now let's give us some guys fresh out of the college. It's fine. We have plenty of telecom knowledge. We can teach them no issues, but we need some of the newer more, more open-minded approaches to what we can do. It's >>Funny, mark Zuckerberg said once years ago, it's a young man's game, a young person's game. And we were all like, yeah, screw you. But the point was is that now he looked at all the best players. Amazon has Gosling over there. A lot of these pioneers in the computing industry and the telecom industry are now leaders on the new architecture because there's an architectural change over, but it's not a rip and replace. It's a net abstraction. So it's not like it's going away. So the skills are there. So how do you talk about that? Because this is the big, an untold story, this new arc and architectural shift or tweak, uh, >>On architecture side. I think we, as an operators, we are really focused on building the networks and our networks started site. It's all about standard, uh, days. And it's all about buying buying boxes. And unfortunately, a lot of our leaders are then coming, growing up on that thinking. So then they trying to do the same thing on software side and it just doesn't work. So software is a totally different animal. So I think you need to really have a different mindset, different way of looking at that. When you start to get on the software side of business and how do you do your architectures? You need to have this flexibility. TSMA is a standard that evolves in a 10 year cycle. Your software architecture can evolve and 10, 10 year cycle. It has to move faster than that >>While you've used it to our ears. You're definitely come back on the cube. We're going to have you back because this is the most important story in this industry is the software paradigm. Um, and our minutes that we have left, why have you here, what do you think of the show? Mobile world Congress, uh, speeds and feeds radios boxes. Now you got chips software. What does this show turning into? What is this about? >>I think it's amazing to start to see this year. What, because of the COVID a lot of the old players are not here. So suddenly that space has been filled more of a newer company. It's different kinds of things. And I think that's really important for this conference. I think it's really important for the industry and it's really good for all of us. It's nice to see something, something new, something, something else, >>Another team of >>Edge brings up education, health care, societal change, cyber defenses, peace and challenges >>With that. Also security and how to control. And yeah, I >>Mean, a lot of people were watching people participating so well. Great to have you on great expertise and congratulations on your new role as a transformation leader in Washington, DC. And again, Nate, we need you there. So did you get up there on the hill and help educate some of those, uh, leaders that need to write the new laws? Thank you very much. Thank you for having me. Okay. We are here in the cube. We're breaking down all the action here at the middle of cloud city. I'm John from the cube. David lump is on assignment. I'm gonna send it back to the studio, Adam.

>>Hello, and welcome. Very excited to see everybody here. DockerCon is going fantastic. Everybody's uh, engaging in the chat. It's awesome to see. My name is Peter McKee. I'm the head of developer relations here at Docker and Taber. Today. We're going to be talking about container first development now and in the future. But before we do that, a couple little housekeeping items, first of all, yes, we are live. So if you're in our session, you can go ahead and chat, ask us questions. We'd love to get all your questions and answer them. Um, if you come to the main page on the website and you do not see the chat, go ahead and click on the blue button and that'll die. Uh, deep dive you into our session and you can interact with the chat there. Okay. Without further ado, let's just jump right into it. Katie, how are you? Welcome. Do you mind telling everybody who you are and a little bit about yourself? >>Absolutely. Hello everyone. My name is Katie and currently I am the eco-system advocate at cloud native computing foundation or CNCF. My responsibility is to lead and represent the end-user community. So these are all the practitioners within the cloud native space that are vendor neutral. So they use cloud native technologies to build their services, but they don't sell it. So this is quite an important characteristic as well. My responsibility is to make sure to close the gap between these practitioners and the project maintainers, to make sure that there is a feedback loop around. Um, I have many roles within the community. I am on the advisory board for KIPP finishes, a sandbox project. I'm working with open UK to make sure that Elton standards are used fairly across data, hardware, and software. And I have been, uh, affiliated way if you'd asked me to make sure that, um, I'm distributing a cloud native fundamental scores to make cloud and they do a few bigger despite everyone. So looking forward to this panel and checking with everyone. >>Awesome. Yeah. Welcome. Glad to have you here. Johanna's how are you? Can you, uh, tell everybody a little bit about yourself and who you are? Yeah, sure. >>So hi everybody. My name is Johannes I'm one of the co-founders at get pot, which in case you don't know is an open-source and container based development platform, which is probably also the reason why you Peter reached out and invited me here. So pleasure to be here, looking forward to the discussion. Um, yeah, though it is already a bit later in Munich. Um, and actually my girlfriend had a remote cocktail class with her colleagues tonight and it took me some stamina to really say no to all the Moscow mules that were prepared just over there in my living room. Oh wow. >>You're way better than me. Yeah. Well welcome. Thanks for joining us. Jerome. How are you? Good to see you. Can you tell everybody who you are and a little bit about yourself? Hi, >>Sure. Yeah, so I'm, I, I used to work at Docker and some, for me would say I'm a container hipster because I was running containers in production before it for hype. Um, I worked at Docker before it was even called Docker. And then since 2018, I'm now a freelancer and doing training and consulting around Docker containers, Kubernetes, all these things. So I used to help folks do stuff with Docker when I was there and now I still have them with containers more generally speaking. So kind of, uh, how do we say same, same team, different company or something like that? Yeah. >>Yeah. Perfect. Yeah. Good to see you. I'm glad you're on. Uh, Jacob, how are you? Good to see you. Thanks for joining us. Good. Yeah. Thanks for having me tell, tell everybody a little bit about yourself who you are. >>Yeah. So, uh, I'm the creator of a tool called mutagen, which is an open source, uh, development tool for doing high performance file synchronization and, uh, network forwarding, uh, to enable remote development. And so I come from like a physics background where I was sort of always doing, uh, remote developments, you know, whether that was on a big central clusters or just like some sort of local machine that was a bit more powerful. And so I, after I graduated, I built this tool called mutagen, uh, for doing remote development. And then to my surprise, people just started using it to use, uh, with Docker containers. And, uh, that's kind of grown into its primary use case now. So I'm, yeah, I've gotten really involved with the Docker community and, uh, talked with a lot of great people and now I'm one of the Docker captains. So I get to talk with even more and, and join these events and yeah, but I'm, I'm kind of focused on doing remote development. Uh, cause I, you know, I like, I like having all my tools available on my local machine, but I also like being able to pull in a little bit more powerful hardware or uh, you know, maybe a software that I can't run locally. And so, uh, that's sort of my interest in, in Docker container. Yeah. Awesome. >>Awesome. We're going to come back to that for sure. But yeah. Thank you again. I really appreciate you all joining me and yeah. So, um, I've been thinking about container first development for a while and you know, what does that actually mean? So maybe, maybe we can define it in our own little way. So I, I just throw it out to the panel. When you think about container first development, what comes to mind? What w what, what are you kind of thinking about? Don't be shy. Go ahead. Jerome. You're never a loss of words >>To me. Like if I go back to the, kind of the first, uh, you know, training engagements we did back at Docker and kind of helping folks, uh, writing Dockerfiles to stop developing in containers. Um, often we were replacing, um, uh, set up with a bunch of Vagrant boxes and another, like the VMs and combinations of local things. And very often they liked it a lot and they were very soon, they wanted to really like develop in containers, like run this microservice. This piece of code is whatever, like run that in containers because that means they didn't have to maintain that thing on their own machine. So that's like five years ago. That's what it meant to me back then. However, today, if you, if you say, okay, you know, developing in containers, um, I'm thinking of course about things like get bought and, uh, I think it's called PR or something like that. >>Like this theme, maybe that thing with the ESCO, that's going to run in a container. And you, you have this vs code thing running in your browser. Well, obviously not in your browser, but in a container that you control from your browser and, and many other things like that, that I, I think that's what we, where we want to go today. Uh, and that's really interesting, um, from all kinds of perspectives, like Chevy pair pairing when we will not next to each other, but actually thousands of miles away, um, or having this little environment that they can put aside and come back to it later, without it having using resource in my machine. Um, I don't know, having this dev service running somewhere in the cloud without needing something like, it's at the rights that are like the, the possibilities are really endless. >>Yeah. Yeah. Perfect. Yeah. I'm, you know, a little while ago I was, I was torn, right. W do I spin up containers? Do I develop inside of my containers? Right. There's foul sinking issues. Um, you know, that we've been working on at Docker for a while, and Jacob is very, very familiar with those, right? Sometimes it, it becomes hard, but, and I, and I love developing in the cloud, but I also have this screaming, you know, fast machine sitting on my desktop that I think I should take advantage of. So I guess another question is, you know, should we be developing inside of containers? Is that a smart thing to do? Uh, I'd love to hear you guys' thoughts around that. >>You know, I think it's one of those things where it's, you know, for me container first development is really about, um, considering containers as sort of a first class citizen in, in terms of your development toolkit, right. I mean, there's not always that silver bullet, that's like the one thing you should use for everything. You know, you shouldn't, you shouldn't use containers if they're not fitting in or adding value to your workflow, but I think there's a lot of scenarios that are like, you know, super on super early on in the development process. Like as soon as you get the server kind of running and working and, you know, you're able to access it, you know, running on your local system. Uh that's I think that's when the value comes in to it to add containers to, you know, what you're doing or to your project. Right. I mean, for me, they're, um, they're more of a orchestrational tool, right? So if I don't have to have six different browser tabs open with like, you know, an API server running at one tab and a web server running in another tab and a database running in another tab, I can just kind of encapsulate those and, and use them as an automation thing. So I think, you know, even if you have a super powerful computer, I think there's still value in, um, using containers as, as a orchestrational mechanism. Yeah. Yeah, >>For sure. I think, I think one of the, one of my original aha moments with Docker was, oh, I can spin up different versions of a database locally and not have to install it and not have to configure it and everything, but, you know, it just ran inside of a container. And that, that was it. Although it's might seem simple to some people that's very, very powerful. Right. So I think being able to spin things up and containers very quickly is one of the super benefits. But yeah, I think, uh, developing in containers is, is hard right now, right. With, um, you know, and how do you do that? Right. Does anybody have any thoughts around, how do you go about that? Right. Should you use a container as just a development environment, so, you know, creating an image and then running it just with your dev tools in it, or do you just, uh, and maybe with an editor all inside of it, and it's just this process, that's almost like a VM. Um, yeah. So I'll just kick it back to the panel. I'd love to hear your thoughts on, you know, how do you set up and configure, uh, containers to develop in any thoughts around that? >>Maybe one step back again, to answer your question, what kind of container first development mean? I think it doesn't mean, um, by default that it has to be in the cloud, right? As you said, um, there are obvious benefits when it comes to the developer experience of containers, such as, I dunno, consistency, we have standardized tools dependencies for the dev side of things, but it also makes their dev environment more similar to all the pipeline that is somehow happening to the right, right. So CIC D all the way to production, it is security, right? Which also somehow comes with standardization. Um, but vulnerability scanning tools like sneak are doing a great job there. And, um, for us, it gets pod. One of the key reasons why we created get pod was literally creating this peace of mind for deaths. So from a developer's point of view, you do not need to take care anymore about all the hassle around setups and things that you will need to install. >>And locally, based on some outdated, REIT me on three operating systems in your company, everybody has something different and leading to these verbs in my machine situations, um, that really slow professional software developers down. Right. Um, back to your point, I mean, with good pod, we obviously have to package everything together in one container because otherwise, exactly the situation happens that you need to have five browser tabs open. So we try and leverage that. And I think a dev environment is not just the editor, right? So a dev environment includes your source code. It includes like a powerful shell. It includes file systems. It includes essentially all the tools you need in order to be productive databases and so on. And, um, yeah, we believe that should be encapsulated, um, um, in a container. >>Yeah. Awesome. Katie, you talked to a lot of end users, right. And you're talking to a lot of developers. What, what's your thoughts around container first development, right? Or, or what's the community out there screaming or screaming. It might be too to, uh, har you know, to, to two grand of the word. Right. But yeah, I love it. I love to hear what your, your thoughts. >>Absolutely. So I think when you're talking about continuing driven development, uh, the first thing that crosses my mind is the awareness of the infrastructure or the platform you're going to run your application on top of, because usually when you develop your application, you'd like to replicate as much as possible the production or even the staging environment to make sure that when you deploy your application, you have us little inconsistencies as possible, but at the same time, you minimize the risk for something to go wrong as well. So when it talking about the, the community, um, again, when you deploy applications and containers and Kubernetes, you have to use, you have awareness about, and probably apply some of the best practices, like introducing liveliness and readiness probes, to make sure that your application can restart in, in case it actually goes down or there's like a you're starving going CPU or something like that. >>So, uh, I think when it comes to deployment and development of an application, the main thing is to actually improve the end developer experience. I think there has been a lot of focus in the community to develop the tool, to actually give you the right tool to run application and production, but that doesn't necessarily, um, go back to how the end developer is actually enabling that application to run into that production system. So I think there has been, uh, this focus for the community identified now, and it's more, more, um, or trying to build momentum on enhancing the developer experience. And we've seen this going through many, uh, where we think production of many tools did what has been one of them, which actually we can have this portable, um, development environment if you choose so, and you can actually replicate them across different teams in different machines, which is actually quite handy. >>But at the same time, we had tools such as local composts has been a great tool to run locally. We have tool such as carefully, which is absolutely great to automatically dynamically upload any changes to how within your code. So I think all of these kinds of tools, they getting more matured. And again, this is going back to again, we need to enhance our developer experience coming back to what is the right way to do so. Um, I think it really depends on the environment you have in production, because there's going to define some of the structures with the tool and you're going to have internally, but at the same time, um, I'd like to say that, uh, it really depends on, on what trucks are developing. Uh, so it's, it's, I would like to personally, I would like to see a bit more diversification in this area because we might have this competitive solutions that is going to push us to towards a new edge. So this is like, what definitely developer experience. If we're talking about development, that's what we need to enhance. And that's what I see the momentum building at the moment. >>Yeah. Yeah. Awesome. Jerome, I saw you shaking your head there in agreement, or maybe not, but what's your thoughts? >>I was, uh, I was just reacting until 82. Uh, it depends thinking that when I, when I do training, that's probably the answer that I gave the most, uh, each time somebody asks, oh, should we do diesel? And I was also looking at some of the questions in the chat about, Hey, the, should we like have a negatory in the, in the container or something like that. And folks can have pretty strong opinions one way or the other, but as a ways, it kind of depends what we do. It also depends of the team that we're working with. Um, you, you could have teams, you know, with like small teams with folks with lots of experience and they all come with their own Feb tools and editorials and plugins. So you know that like you're gonna have PRI iMacs out of my cold dead hands or something like that. >>So of course, if you give them something else, they're going to be extremely unhappy or sad. On the other hand, you can have team with folks who, um, will be less opinionated on that. And even, I don't know, let's say suddenly you start working on some project with maybe a new programming language, or maybe you're targeting some embedded system or whatever, like something really new and different. And you come up with all the tools, even the ADE, the extensions, et cetera, folks will often be extremely happy in that case that you're kind of giving them a Dettol and an ADE, even if that's not what they usually would, uh, would use, um, because it will come with all of the, the, the nice stage, you know, the compression, the, um, the, the, the bigger, the, whatever, all these things. And I think there is also something interesting to do here with development in containers. >>Like, Hey, you're going to start working on this extremely complex target based on whatever. And this is a container that has everything to get started. Okay. Maybe it's not your favorites editor, but it has all the customization and the conserver and whatever. Um, so you can start working right away. And then maybe later you, we want to, you know, do that from the container in a way, and have your own Emacs, atom, sublime, vs code, et cetera, et cetera. Um, but I think it's great for containers here, as well as they reserve or particularly the opportunity. And I think like the, that, that's one thing where I see stuff like get blood being potentially super interesting. Um, it's hard for me to gauge because I confess I was never a huge ID kind of person had some time that gives me this weird feeling, like when I help someone to book some, some code and you know, that like with their super nice IDE and everything is set up, but they feel kind of lost. >>And then at some point I'm like, okay, let's, let's get VI and grep and let's navigate this code base. And that makes me feel a little bit, you know, as this kind of old code for movies where you have the old, like colorful guy who knows going food, but at the end ends up still being obsolete because, um, it's only a going for movies that whole good for masters and the winning right. In real life, we don't have conformance there's anymore mentioned. So, um, but part of me is like, yeah, I like having my old style of editor, but when, when the modern editorial modern ID comes with everything set up and configured, that's just awesome. That's I, um, it's one thing that I'm not very good at sitting up all these little things, but when somebody does it and I can use it, it's, it's just amazing. >>Yeah. Yeah. I agree. I'm I feel the same way too. Right. I like, I like the way I've I have my environment. I like the tools that I use. I like the way they're set up. And, but it's a big issue, right? If you're switching machines, like you said, if you're helping someone else out there, they're not there, your key bindings aren't there, you can't, you can't navigate their system. Right? Yeah. So I think, you know, talking about, uh, dev environments that, that Docker's coming out with, and we're, you know, there's a lot, there, there's a, it's super complex, all these things we're talking about. And I think we're taking the approach of let's do something, uh, well, first, right. And then we can add on to that. Right. Because I think, you know, setting up full, full developed environments is hard, right. Especially in the, the, um, cloud native world nowadays with microservices, do you run them on a repo? >>Do you not have a monitor repo? Maybe that would be interesting to talk about. I think, um, you know, I always start out with the mono repos, right. And you have all your services in there and maybe you're using one Docker file. And then, because that works fine. Cause everything is JavaScript and node. And then you throw a little Python in there and then you throw a little go and now you start breaking things out and then things get too complex there, you know, and you start pulling everything out into different, get repos and now, right. Not everything just fits into these little buckets. Right. So how do you guys think maybe moving forward, how do we attack that night? How do we attack these? Does separate programming languages and environments and kind of bring them all together. You know, we, we, I hesitate, we solve that with compose around about running, right about executing, uh, running your, your containers. But, uh, developing with containers is different than running containers. Right. It's a, it's a different way to think about it. So anyway, sorry, I'm rattling on a little bit, but yeah. Be interesting to look at a more complex, uh, setup right. Of, uh, of, you know, even just 10 microservices that are in different get repos and different languages. Right. Just some thoughts. And, um, I'm not sure we all have this flushed out yet, but I'd love to hear your, your, you guys' thoughts around that. >>Jacob, you, you, you, you look like you're getting ready to jump there. >>I didn't wanna interrupt, but, uh, I mean, I think for me the issue isn't even really like the language boundary or, or, um, you know, a sub repo boundary. I think it's really about, you know, the infrastructure, right? Because you have, you're moving to an era where you have these cloud services, which, you know, some of them like S3, you can, you can mock up locally, uh, or run something locally in a container. But at some point you're going to have like, you know, cloud specific hardware, right? Like you got TPS or something that maybe are forming some critical function in your, in your application. And you just can't really replicate that locally, but you still want to be able to develop against that in some capacity. So, you know, my, my feeling about where it's going to go is you'll end up having parts of your application running locally, but then you also have, uh, you know, containers or some other, uh, element that's sort of cohabitating with, uh, you know, either staging or, or testing or production services that you're, uh, that you're working with. >>So you can actually, um, you know, test against a really or realistic simulation or the actual, uh, surface that you're running against in production. Because I think it's just going to become untenable to keep emulating all of that stuff locally, or to have to like duplicate these, you know, and, you know, I guess you can argue about whether or not it's a good thing that, that everything's moving to these kind of more closed off cloud services, but, you know, the reality of situation is that's where it's going to go. And there's certain hardware that you're going to want in the cloud, especially if you're doing, you know, machine learning oriented stuff that there's just no way you're going to be able to run locally. Right. I mean, if you're, even if you're in a dev team where you have, um, maybe like a central machine where you've got like 10 or 20 GPU's in it, that's not something that you're going to be able to, to, to replicate locally. And so that's how I kind of see that, um, you know, containers easing that boundary between different application components is actually maybe more about co-location, um, or having different parts of your application run in different locations, on different hardware, you know, maybe someone on your laptop, maybe it's someone, you know, AWS or Azure or somewhere. Yeah. It'd be interesting >>To start seeing those boundaries blur right. Working local and working in the cloud. Um, and you might even, you might not even know where something is exactly is running right until you need to, you know, that's when you really care, but yeah. Uh, Johanas, what's your thoughts around that? I mean, I think we've, we've talked previously of, of, um, you know, hybrid kind of environments. Uh, but yeah. What, what's your thoughts around that? >>Um, so essentially, yeah, I think, I mean, we believe that the lines between cloud and local will also potentially blur, and it's actually not really about that distinction. It's just packaging your dev environment in a way and provisioning your dev environment in a way that you are what we call always ready to coat. So that literally, um, you, you have that for the, you described as, um, peace of mind that you can just start to be creative and start to be productive. And if that is a container potentially running locally and containers are at the moment. I think, you know, the vehicle that we use, um, two weeks ago, or one week ago actually stack blitz announced the web containers. So potentially some things, well, it's run in the browser at some point, but currently, you know, Docker, um, is the standard that enables you to do that. And what we think will happen is that these cloud-based or local, um, dev environments will be what we call a femoral. So it will be similar to CIS, um, that we are using right now. And it doesn't literally matter, um, where they are running at the end. It's just, um, to reduce friction as much as possible and decrease and yeah, yeah. Essentially, um, avoid or the hustle that is currently involved in setting up and also managing dev environments, um, going forward, which really slows down specifically larger teams. >>Yeah. Yeah. Um, I'm going to shift gears a little bit here. We have a question from the audience in chat, uh, and it's, I think it's a little bit two parts, but so far as I can see container first, uh, development, have the challenges of where to get safe images. Um, and I was going to answer it, but let me keep it, let me keep going, where to get safe images and instrumentation, um, and knowing where exactly the problem is happening, how do we provide instrument instrumentation to see exactly where a problem might be happening and why? So I think the gist of it is kind of, of everything is in a container and I'm sitting outside, you know, the general thought around containers is isolation, right. Um, so how do I get views into that? Um, whether debugging or, or, or just general problems going on. I think that's maybe a broader question around the, how you, you know, you have your local hosts and then you're running everything containers, and what's the interplay there. W what's your thoughts there? >>I tend to think that containers are underused interactively. I mean, I think in production, you have this mindset that there's sort of this isolated environment, but it's very, actually simple to drop into a shell inside of a container and use it like you would, you know, your terminal. Um, so if you want to install software that way, you know, through, through an image rather than through like Homebrew or something, uh, you can kind of treat containers in that way and you can get a very, um, you know, direct access to the, to the space in which those are running in. So I think, I think that's maybe the step one is just like getting rid of that mindset, that, that these are all, um, you know, these completely encapsulated environments that you can't interact with because it's actually quite easy to just Docker exec into a container and then use it interactively >>Yeah. A hundred percent. And maybe I'll pass, I'm going to pass this question. You drone, but maybe demystify containers a little bit when I talked about this on the last, uh, panel, um, because we have a question in the, in the chat around, what's the, you know, why, why containers now I have VMs, right? And I think there's a misunderstanding in the industry, uh, about what, what containers are, we think they're fair, packaged stuff. And I think Jacob was hitting on that of what's underneath the hood. So maybe drown, sorry, for a long way to set up a question of what, what, what makes up a container, what is a container >>Is a container? Well, I, I think, um, the sharpest and most accurate and most articulate definition, I was from Alice gold first, and I will probably misquote her, but she said something like containers are a bunch of capsulated processes, maybe running on a cookie on welfare system. I'm not sure about the exact definition, but I'm going to try and, uh, reconstitute that like containers are just processes that run on a Unix machine. And we just happen to put a bunch of, um, red tape or whatever around them so that they are kind of contained. Um, but then the beauty of it is that we can contend them as much, or as little as we want. We can go kind of only in and put some actual VM or something like firecracker around that to give some pretty strong angulation, uh, all we can also kind of decontam theorize some aspects, you know, you can have a container that's actually using the, um, the, um, the network namespace of the host. >>So that gives it an entire, you know, wire speed access to the, to the network of the host. Um, and so to me, that's what really interesting, of course there is all the thing about, oh, containers are lightweight and I can pack more of them and they start fast and the images can be small, yada yada, yada. But to me, um, with my background in infrastructure and building resilient, things like that, but I find really exciting is the ability to, you know, put the slider wherever I need it. Um, the, the, the ability to have these very light containers, all very heavily, very secure, very anything, and even the ability to have containers in containers. Uh, even if that sounds a little bit, a little bit gimmicky at first, like, oh, you know, like you, you did the Mimi, like, oh, I heard you like container. >>So I put Docker when you're on Docker. So you can run container for you, run containers. Um, but that's actually extremely convenient because, um, as soon as you stop building, especially something infrastructure related. So you challenge is how do you test that? Like, when we were doing.cloud, we're like, okay, uh, how do we provision? Um, you know, we've been, if you're Amazon, how do you provision the staging for us installed? How do you provision the whole region, Jen, which is actually staging? It kind of makes things complicated. And the fact that we have that we can have containers within containers. Uh, that's actually pretty powerful. Um, we're also moving to things where we have secure containers in containers now. So that's super interesting, like stuff like a SIS box, for instance. Um, when I saw that, that was really excited because, uh, one of the horrible things I did back in the days as Docker was privileged containers, precisely because we wanted to have Docker in Docker. >>And that was kind of opening Pandora's box. That's the right, uh, with the four, because privileged containers can do literally anything. They can completely wreck up the machine. Um, and so, but at the same time, they give you the ability to run VPNs and run Docker in Docker and all these cool things. You can run VM in containers, and then you can list things. So, um, but so when I saw that you could actually have kind of secure containers within containers, like, okay, there is something really powerful and interesting there. And I think for folks, well, precisely when you want to do development in containers, especially when you move that to the cloud, that kind of stuff becomes a really important and interesting because it's one thing to have my little dev thing on my local machine. It's another thing when I want to move that to a swarm or Kubernetes cluster, and then suddenly even like very quickly, I hit the wall, which is, oh, I need to have containers in my containers. Um, and then having a runtime, like that gets really intense. >>Interesting. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I, and jumping back a bit, um, yeah, uh, like you said, drum at the, at the base of it, it containers just a, a process with, with some, uh, Abra, pardon me, operating constructs wrapped around it and see groups, namespaces those types of things. But I think it's very important to, for our discussion right. Of, uh, developers really understanding that, that this is just the process, just like a normal process when I spin up my local bash in my term. Uh, and I'm just interacting with that. And a lot of the things we talk about are more for production runtimes for securing containers for isolating them locally. I don't, I don't know. I'll throw the question out to the panel. Is that really relevant to us locally? Right. Do we want to pull out all of those restrictions? What are the benefits of containers for development, right. And maybe that's a soft question, but I'd still love to hear your thoughts. Maybe I'll kick it over to you, Katie, would you, would you kick us off a little bit with that? >>I'll try. Um, so I think when, again, I was actually thinking of the previous answers because maybe, maybe I could do a transition here. So, interesting, interesting about containers, a piece of trivia, um, the secrets and namespaces have been within the Linux kernel since 2008, I think, which just like more than 10 years ago, hover containers become popular in the last years. So I think it's, it's the technology, but it's about the organization adopting this technology. So I think why it got more popular now is because it became the business differentiator organizations started to think, how can I deliver value to my customers as quickly as possible? So I think that there should be this kind of two lane, um, kind of progress is the technology, but it's at the same time organization and cultural now are actually essential for us to develop, uh, our applications locally. >>Again, I think when it's a single application, if you have just one component, maybe it's easier for you to kind of run it locally, have a very simple testing environment. Sufficient is a container necessary, probably not. However, I think it's more important when you're thinking to the bigger picture. When we have an architecture that has myriads of microservices at the basis, when it's something that you have to expose, for example, an API, or you have to consume an API, these are kind of things where you might need to think about a lightweight set up within the containers, only local environment to make sure that you have at least a similar, um, environment or a configuration to make sure that you test some of the expected behavior. Um, I think the, the real kind of test you start from the, the dev cluster will like the dev environment. >>And then like for, for you to go to staging and production, you will get more clear into what exactly that, um, um, configuration should be in the end. However, at the same time, again, it's, it's more about, um, kind of understanding why you continue to see this, the thing, like, I don't say that you definitely need containers at all times, but there are situations when you have like, again, multiple services and you need to replicate them. It's just the place to, to, to work with these kind of, um, setups. So, um, yeah, really depends on what you're trying to develop here. Nothing very specific, unfortunately, but get your product and your requirements are going to define what you're going to work with. >>Yeah, no, I think that's a great answer, right. I think one of the best answers in, in software engineering and engineering in general as well, it depends. Right. It's things are very specific when we start getting down to the details, but yeah, generally speaking, you know, um, I think containers are good for development, but yeah, it depends, right. It really depends. Is it helping you then? Great. If it's hindering you then, okay. Maybe think what's, what's the hindrance, right. And are containers the right solution. I agree. 110% and, >>And everything. I would like absurd this too as well. When we, again, we're talking about the development team and now we have this culture where we have the platform and infrastructure team, and then you have your engineering team separately, especially when the regulations are going to be segregated. So, um, it's quite important to understand that there might be a, uh, a level of up-skilling required. So pushing for someone to use containers, because this is the right way for you to develop your application might be not, uh, might not be the most efficient way to actually develop a product because you need to spend some time to make sure that the, the engineering team has the skills to do so. So I think it's, it's, again, going back to my answers here is like, truly be aware of how you're trying to develop how you actually collaborate and having that awareness of your platform can be quite helpful in developing your, uh, your publication, the more importantly, having less, um, maybe blockers pushing it to a production system. >>Yeah, yeah. A hundred percent. Yeah. The, uh, the cultural issue is, is, um, within the organization, right. Is a very interesting thing. And it, and I would submit that it's very hard from top down, right. Pushing down tools and processes down to the dev team, man, we'll just, we'll just rebel. It usually comes from the bottom up. Right. What's working for us, we're going to do right. And whether we do it in the shadows and don't let it know, or, or we've conformed, right. Yeah. A hundred percent. Um, interesting. I would like to think a little bit in the future, right? Like, let's say, I don't know, two, three years from now, if, if y'all could wave a and I'm from Texas. So I say y'all, uh, if you all could wave a magic wand, what, what, what would that bring about right. What, what would, what would be the best scenario? And, and we just don't have to say containers. Right. But, you know, what's the best development environment and I'm going to kick it over to you, Jacob. Cause I think you hinted at some of that with some hybrid type of stuff, but, uh, yeah. Implies, they need to keep you awake. You're, you're, you're, uh, almost on the other side of the world for me, but yeah, please. >>Um, I think, you know, it's, it's interesting because you have this technology that you've been, that's been brought from production, so it's not, um, necessarily like the right or the normal basis for development. So I think there's going to be some sort of realignment or renormalization in terms of, uh, you know, what the, what the basis and the abstractions that we're using on a daily basis are right. Like images and containers as they exist now are really designed for, um, for production use cases. And, and in terms of like, even even the ergonomics of opening a shell inside a container, I think is something that's, um, you know, not as polished or not as smooth as it could be because they've come from production. And so I think it's important, like not to, not to have people look at, look at the technology as it exists now and say like, okay, this is slightly rough around the edges, or it wasn't designed for this use case and think, oh, there's, you know, there's never any way I could use this for, for my development of workflows. >>I think it's, you know, it's something Docker's exploring now with, uh, with the, uh, dev containers, you know, it's, it's a new, and it's an experimental paradigm and it may not be what the final picture looks like. As, you know, you were saying, there's going to be kind of a baseline and you'll add features to that or iterate on that. Um, but I think that's, what's interesting about it, right? Cause it's, there's not a lot of things as developers that you get to play with that, um, that are sort of the new technology. Like if you're talking about things you're building to ship, you want to kind of use tried and true components that, you know, are gonna, that are going to be reliable. But I think containers are that interesting point where it's like, this is an established technology, but it's also being used in a way now that's completely different than what it was designed for. And, and, you know, as hackers, I think that's kind of an interesting opportunity to play with it, but I think, I think that's, what's going to happen is you're just going to see kind of those production, um, designed, uh, knobs kind of sanded down or redesigned for, for development. So that's kind of where I see it going. >>Yeah. Yeah. And I think that's what I was trying to hint out earlier is like, um, yeah, just because all these things are there, does it actually mean we need them locally? Right. Do they make sense? I, I agree. A hundred percent, uh, anybody else drawn? What are your thoughts around that? And then, and then, uh, I'll probably just ask all of you. I'd love to hear each of your thoughts of the future. >>I had a thought was maybe unrelated, but I was kind of wondering if we would see something on the side of like energy efficiency in some way. Um, and maybe it's just because I've been thinking a lot about like climate change and things like that recently, and trying to reduce like the, uh, the energy use energy use and things like that. Perhaps it's also because I recently got a new laptop, which on paper is super awesome, but in practice, as soon as you try to have like two slack tabs and a zoom call, you know, it's super fast, both for 30 seconds. And after 30 seconds, it blows its thermal budget and it's like slows down to a crawl. And I started to think, Hmm, maybe, you know, like before we, we, we were thinking about, okay, I don't have that much CPU available. So you have to be kind of mindful about that. >>And now I wonder how are we going to get in something similar to that, but where you try to save CPU cycles, not just because you don't have that many CPU cycles, but more because you know, that you can't go super fast for super long when you are on one of these like small laptops or tablets or phones, like you have this demo budget to take into account. And, um, I wonder if, and how like, is there something where goaltenders can do some things here? I guess it can be really interesting if they can do some the equivalent of like Docker top and Docker stats. And if I could see, like how much what's are these containers using, I can already do that with power top on Linux, for instance, like process by process. So I'm thinking I could see what's the power usage of, of some containers. Um, and I wonder if down the line, is this going to be something useful or is this just silly because we can just masquerade CPU usage for, for Watson and forget about it. >>Yeah. Yeah. It was super, super interesting, uh, perspective for sure. I'm going to shut up because I want to, I want to give, make sure I give Johannes and Katie time. W w what are your thoughts of the future around, let's just say, you know, container development in general, right? You want, you want to start absolutely. Oh, honest, Nate. Johns wants more time. I say, I'll try not to. Beneficiate >>Expensive here, but, um, so one of the things that we've we've touched upon earlier in the panel was multicloud strategy. And I was reading one of the data reports from it was about the concept of Kubernetes from gamer Townsville. But what is working for you to see there is that more and more organizations are thinking about multicloud strategy, which means that you need to develop an application or need an infrastructure or a component, which will allow you to run this application bead on a public cloud bead, like locally in a data center and so forth. And here, when it comes to this kind of, uh, maybe problems we come across open standards, this is where we require something, which will allow us to execute our application or to run our platform in different environments. So when you're thinking about the application or development of the application, one of the things that, um, came out in 2019 at was the Oakland. >>Um, I wish it was Kybella, which is a, um, um, an open application model based application, which allows you to describe the way you would like your service to be executed in different environments. It doesn't need to be well developed specifically for communities. However, the open application model is specialized. So specialized tries to cover multiple platforms. You will be able to execute your application anywhere you want it to. So I think that that's actually quite important because it completely obstructs what is happening underneath it, completely obstructs notions, such as containers, uh, or processes is just, I want this application and I want to have this kind of behavior is so example of, to scale in this conditions or to, um, to be exposed for these, uh, end points and so forth. And everything that I would like to mention here is that maybe this transcends again, the, uh, the logistics of the application development, but it definitely will impact the way we run our applications. >>So one of the biggest, well, one of the new trends that is kind of gaining momentum now has been around Plaza. And this is again, something which is trying to present what we have the on containers. Again, it's focusing on the, it's kind of a cyclical, um, uh, action movement that we have here. When we moved from the VMs to containers, it was smaller footprint. We want like better execution, one, this agnosticism of the platforms. We have the same thing happening here with Watson, but again, it consents a new, um, uh, kind of, well, it teaches in you, uh, in new climax here, where again, we shrink the footprint of the cluster. We have a better isolation of all the services. We have a better trend, like portability of how services and so forth. So there is a great potential out there. And again, like why I'm saying this is some of these technologies are gonna define the way we're gonna do our development of the application on our local environment. >>That's why it's important to kind of maybe have an eye there and maybe see if some of those principles of some of those technologies we can bring internally as well. And just this, like a, a final thought here, um, security has been mentioned as well. Um, I think it's something which has been, uh, at the forefront, especially when it comes to containers, uh, especially when it comes to enterprise organizations and those who are regulated, which I feel come very comfortable to run their application within a VM where you have the full isolation, you can do what we have complete control of what's happening inside that compute. So, um, again, security has been at the forefront at the moment. So I know it has mentioned in the panel before. I'd like to mention that we have the security white paper, which has been published. We have the software supply chain, white paper as well, which twice to figure out or define some of these good practices as well, again, which you can already apply from your development environment and then propagate them to production. So I'm just going to leave, uh, all of these. That's all. >>That's awesome. And yeah, well, while is very, very interesting. I saw the other day that, um, and I forget who it was, maybe, maybe all can remember, um, you know, running, running the node, um, engine inside of, you know, in Walzem inside of a browser. Right. And, uh, at first glance I said, well, we already have a JavaScript execution engine. Right. And it's kind of like Docker and Docker. So you have, uh, you know, you have the browser, then, then you have blossom and then you have a node, you know, a JavaScript runtime. And, and I didn't understand was while I was, um, you know, actually executing is JavaScript and it's not, but yeah, it's super interesting, super powerful. I always felt that the browser was, uh, Java's what write once run anywhere kind of solution, right. That never came about, they were thinking of set top, uh, TV boxes and stuff like that, which is interesting. >>I don't know, you'll some of the history of Java, but yeah. Wasm is, is very, I'm not sure how to correctly pronounce it, but yeah, it's extremely interesting because of the isolation in that boxing. Right. And running powerful languages that were used to inside of a more isolated environment. Right. And it's almost, um, yeah, it's kind of, I think I've mentioned it before that the containers inside of containers, right. Um, yeah. So Johannes, hopefully I gave you enough time. I delayed, I delayed as much as I can. My friend, you better, you better just kidding. I'm just kidding, please, please. >>It was by the way, stack let's and they worked together with Google and with Russell, um, developing the web containers, it's called there's, it's quite interesting. The research they're doing there. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, what we believe and I, I also believe is that, um, yeah, probably somebody is doing to death environments, what Docker did to servers and at least that good part. We hope that somebody will be us. Um, so what we mean by that is that, um, we think today we are still somehow emotionally attached to our dev environments. Right. We give them names, we massage them over time, which can also have its benefits, but it's, they're still pets in some way. Right. And, um, we believe that, um, environments in the future, um, will be treated similar like servers today as automated resources that you can just spin up and close down whenever you need them. >>Right. And, um, this trend essentially that you also see in serverless, if you look at what kind of Netlify is doing a bit with preview environments, what were sellers doing? Um, there, um, we believe will also arrive at, um, at Steph environments. It probably won't be there tomorrow. So it will take some time because if there's also, you know, emotion involved into, in that, in that transition, but ultimately really believe that, um, provisioning dev environments also in the cloud allows you to leverage the power of the cloud and to essentially build all that stuff that you need in order to work in advance. Right? So that's literally either command or a button. So either, I don't know, a command that spins up your local views code and SSH into, into a container, or you do it in a browser, um, will be the way that professional development teams will develop in the future. Probably let's see in our direction of document, we say it's 2000 to 23. Let's see if that holds true. >>Okay. Can we, can, we let's know. Okay. Let's just say let's have a friendly bet. I don't know that's going to be closed now, but, um, yeah, I agree. I, you know, it's my thought around is it, it's hard, right? Th these are hard. And what problems do you tackle first, right? Do you tackle the day, one of, uh, you know, of development, right. I joined a team, Hey, here's your machine? And you have Docker installed and there you go, pull, pull down your environment. Right. Is that necessarily just an image? You know, what, what exactly is that sure. Containers are involved. Right. But that's, I mean, you, you've probably all gone through it. You joined a team, new project, even open-source project, right there. There's a huge hurdle just to get everything configured, to get everything installed, to get it up and running, um, you know, set aside all understanding the code base. >>Cause that's a different issue. Right. But just getting everything running locally and to your point earlier, Jacob of around, uh, recreating, local production cues and environments and, you know, GPS or anything like that, right. Is extremely hard. You can't do a lot of that locally. Right. So I think that's one of the things I'd love to see tackled. And I think that's where we're tackling in dev environments, uh, with Docker, but then now how do you become productive? Right. And where do we go from there? And, uh, and I would love to see this kind of hybrid and you guys have been all been talking about it where I can, yes. I have it configured everything locally on my nice, you know, apple notebook. Right. And then, you know, I go with the family and we go on vacation. I don't want to drag this 16 inch, you know, Mac laptop with me. >>And I want to take my nice iPad with the magic keyboard and all the bang stuff. Right. And I just want to fire up and I pick up where I left off. Right. And I keep coding and environment feels, you know, as much as it can that I'm still working at backup my desktop. I think those, those are very interesting to me. And I think reproducing, uh, the production running runtime environments as close as possible, uh, when I develop my, I think that's extremely powerful, extremely powerful. I think that's one of the hardest things, right. It's it's, uh, you know, we used to say, we, you debug in production. Right. We would launch, right. We would do, uh, as much performance testing as possible. But until you flip that switch on a big, on a big site, that's where you really understand what is going to break. >>Right. Well, awesome. I think we're just about at time. I really, really appreciate everybody joining me. Um, it's been a pleasure talking to all of you. We have to do this again. If I, uh, hopefully, you know, I I'm in here in America and we seem to be doing okay with COVID, but I know around the world, others are not. So my heart goes out to them, but I would love to be able to get out of here and come see all of you and meet you in person, maybe break some bread together. But, um, again, it was a pleasure talking to you all, and I really appreciate you taking the time. Have a good evening. Cool. >>Thanks for having us. Thanks for joining us. Yes.

>>Yeah, yeah. >>Hello and welcome back. I hope you're ready for our next session. Become the analyst of the future. We'll hear the customer's perspective about their increasingly strategic role and the potential career growth that comes with it. Joining us today are Nate Weaver, director of product marketing at Thought Spot. Yasmin Natasa, senior director of national sales strategy and insights over at Comcast and Steve Would Ledge VP of customer and partner initiatives. Oughta Terex. We're so happy to have you all here today. I'll hand things over to meet to kick things off. >>Yeah, thanks, Paula. I'd like to start with a personal story that might resonate with our audience, says an analyst. Early in my career, I was the intermediary between the business and what we called I t right. Basically database administrators. I was responsible for understanding business logic gathering requirements, Ringling data building dashboards for executives and, in my case, 100 plus sales reps. Every request that came through the business intelligence team. We owned everything, right? Indexing databases for speed, S s. I s packages for data transfer maintaining Department of Data Lakes all out cubes, etcetera. We were busy. Now we were constantly building or updating something. The worst part is an analyst, If you ask the business, every request took too long. It was slow. Well, from an analyst perspective, it was slow because it's a complex process with many moving parts. So as an analyst fresh out of grad school often felt overeducated, sometimes underappreciated, like a report writer, we were constantly overwhelmed by never ending ad hoc request, even though we had hundreds of reports and robust dashboards that would answer 90% of the questions. If the end user had an analytical foundation like I did right, if they knew where to look and how to navigate dimensions and hierarchies, etcetera. So anyway, point is, we had to build everything through this complex and slow, um, process. So for the first decade of my career, I had this gut feeling there had to be a better way, and today we're going to talk about how thought SWAT and all tricks are empowering the analysts of the future by reimagining the entire data pipeline. This paradigm shift allows businesses and data teams thio, connect, transform, model and, most importantly, automate what used to be this terribly complex data analysis process. With that, I'd like to hand it over to Steve to describe the all tricks analytic process automation platform and how they help analysts create more robust data sets that enable non technical end users toe ask and answer their own questions, but also more sophisticated business questions. Using Search and AI Analytics in Thoughts Fire Steve over to you. >>Thanks for that really relevant example. Nate and Hi, everyone. I'm Steve. Will it have been in the market for about 20 years, and then Data Analytics and I can completely I can completely appreciate what they was talking about. And what I think is unique about all tricks is how we not only bring people to the data for a self service environment, but I think what's often missed in analytics is the automation and figure out. What is the business process that needs to be repeated and connecting the dots between the date of the process and the people To speed up those insights, uh, to not only give people to self service, access to information, to do data prep and blending, but more advanced analytics, and then driving that into the business in terms of outcomes. And I'll show you what that looks like when you talk about the analytic process automation platform on the next slide. What we've done is we've created this end to end workflow where data is on the left, outcomes around the right and within the ultras environment, we unify data prep and blend analytics, data science and process automation. In this continuous process, so is analysis or an end user. I can go ahead and grab whatever data is made available to me by i t. You have got 80 plus different inputs and a p i s that we connect to. You have this drag and drop environment where you conjoined the data together, apply filters, do some descriptive analytics, even do things like grab text documents and do sentiments analysis through that with text, mining and natural language processing. As people get more used to the platform and want to do more advanced analytics and process automation, we also have things like assisted machine learning and predictive analytics out of the box directly within it as well and typically within organizations. These would be different departments and different tools doing this and we try to bring all this together in one system. So there's 260 different automation building blocks again and drag a drop environment. And then those outcomes could be published into a place where thoughts about visualizes that makes it accessible to the business users to do additional search based B I and analytics directly from their browser. And it's not just the insights that you would get from thought spot, but a lot of automation is also driving unattended, unattended or automated actions within operational systems. If you take an example of one of our customers that's in the telecommunications world, they drive customer insights around likeliness to turn or next best offers, and they deliver that within a salesforce applications. So when you walk into a retail store for your cell phone provider, they will know more about you in terms of what services you might be interested in. And if you're not happy at the time and things like that. So it's about how do we connect all those components within the business process? And what this looks like is on this screen and I won't go through in detail, but it's ah, dragon drop environment, where everything from the input data, whether it's cloud on Prem or even a local file that you might have for a spreadsheet. Uh, I t wants to have this environment where it's governed, and there's sort of components that you're allowed to have access to so that you could do that data crept and blending and not just data within your organization, but also then being able to blend in third party demographic data or firm a graphic information from different third party data providers that we have joined that data together and then do more advanced analytics on it. So you could have a predictive score or something like that being applied and blending that with other information about your customer and then sharing those insights through thought spots and more and more users throughout the organization. And bring that to life. In addition to you, as we know, is gonna talk about her experience of Comcast. Given the world that we're in right now, uh, hospital care and the ability to have enough staff and and take care of all of our people is a really important thing. So one of our customers, a large healthcare network in the South was using all tricks to give not only analyst with the organization, but even nurses were being trained on how to use all tricks and do things like improve observation. Wait time eso that when you come in, the nurse was actually using all tricks to look at the different time stamps out of ethic and create a process for the understands. What are all the causes for weight in three observation room and identify outliers of people that are trying to come in for a certain type of care that may wait much longer than on average. And they're actually able to reduce their wait time by 22%. And the outliers were reduced by about 50% because they did a better job of staffing. And overall staffing is a big issue if you can imagine trying to have a predictive idea of how many staff you need in the different medical facilities around the network, they were bringing in data around the attrition of healthcare workers, the volume of patient load, the scheduled holidays that people have and being able to predict 4 to 6 months out. What are the staff that they need to prepare toe have on on site and ready so they could take care of the patients as they're coming in. In this case, they used in our module within all tricks to do that, planning to give HR and finance a view of what's required, and they could do a drop, a drop down by department and understand between physicians, nurses and different facilities. What is the predicted need in terms of staffing within that organization? So you go to the next slide done, you know, aside from technology, the number one thing for the analysts of the future is being able to focus on higher value business initiatives. So it's not just giving those analysts the ability to do this self service dragon drop data prep and blend and analytics, but also what are the the common problems that we've solved as a community? We have 150,000 people in the alter its community. We've been in business for over 23 years, so you could go toe this gallery and not only get things like the thought spot tools that we have to connect so you can do direct query through T Q l and pushed it into thought spot in Falcon memory and other things. But look at things like the example here is the healthcare District, where we have some of our third party partners that have built out templates and solutions around predictive staffing and tracking the complicating conditions around Cove. It as an example on different KPs that you might have in healthcare, environment and retail, you know, over 150 different solution templates, tens of thousands of different posts across different industries, custom return and other problems that we can solve, and bringing that to the community that help up level, that collective knowledge, that we have this business analyst to solve business problems and not just move data, and then finally, you know, as part of that community, part of my role in all tricks is not only working with partners like thought spot, but I also share our C suite advisory board, which we just happen to have this morning, as a matter of fact, and the number one thing we heard and discussed at that customer advisory board is a round up Skilling, particularly in this virtual world where you can't do in classroom learning how do we game if I and give additional skills to our staff so that they can digitize and automate more and more analytic processes in their organization? I won't go through all this, but we do have learning paths for both beginners. A swell as advanced people that want to get more into the data science world. And we've also given back to our community. There's an initiative called Adapt where we've essentially donated 125 hours of free training free access to our products. Within the first two weeks, we've had over 9000 people participate in that get certified across 100 different companies and then get jobs in this new world where they've got additional skills now around analytics. So I encourage you to check that out, learn what all tricks could do for you in up Skilling your journey becoming that analysts of the future And thanks for having me today thoughts fun looking forward to the rest of conversation with the Azmin. >>Yeah, thanks. I'm gonna jump in real quick here because you just mentioned something that again as an analyst, is incredibly important. That's, you know, empowering Mia's an analyst to answer those more sophisticated business questions. There's a few things that you touched on that would be my personal top three. Right? Is an analyst. You talked about data cleansing because everyone has data quality problems enhancing the data sets. I came from a supply chain analytics background. So things like using Dun and Bradstreet in your examples at risk profiles to my supplier data and, of course, predictive analytics, like creating a forecast to estimate future demand. These are things that I think is an analyst. I could truly provide additional value. I'd like to show you a quick example, if I may, of the type of ad hoc request that I would often get from the business. And it's fairly complex, but with a combination of all tricks and thought spots very easy to answer. Crest. The request would look something like this. I'd like to see my spend this year versus last year to date. Uh, maybe look at that monthly for Onley, my area of responsibility. But I only want to focus on my top five suppliers from this year, right? And that's like an end statement. I saw that in one of your slides and so in thoughts about that's answering or asking a simple question, you're getting the answer in maybe 30 seconds. And that's because behind the scenes, the last part is answering those complexities for you. And if I were to have to write this out in sequel is an analyst, it could take me upwards, maybe oven our because I've got to get into the right environment in the database and think about the filters and the time stamps, and there's a lot going on. So again, thoughts about removes that curiosity tax, which when becoming the analysts of the future again, if I don't have to focus on the small details that allows me to focus on higher value business initiatives, right. And I want to empower the business users to ask and answer their own questions. That does come with up Skilling, the business users as well, by improving data fluency through education and to expand on this idea. I wanna invite Yasmin from Comcast to kind of tell her personal story. A zit relates to analysts of the future inside Comcast. >>Well, thank you for having me. It's such a pleasure. And Steve, thank you so much for starting and setting the groundwork for this amazing conversation. You hit the nail on the head. I mean, data is a Trojan horse off analytics, and our ability to generate that inside is eyes busy is anchored on how well we can understand the data on get the data clean It and tools, like all tricks, are definitely at the forefront off ability to accelerate the I'll speak to incite, which is what hot spot brings to the table. Eso My story with Thought spot started about a year and a half ago as I'm part of the Sales Analytics team that Comcast all group is officially named, uh, compensation strategy and insight. We are part of the Consumer Service, uh, Consumer Service expected Consumer Service group in the cell of Residential Sales Organization, and we were created to provide insight to the Comcast sells channel leaders Thio make sure that they have database insight to drive sales performance, increased revenue. We When we started the function, we were really doing a lot of data wrangling, right? It wasn't just a self performance. It waas understanding who are customers were pulling a data on productivity. Uh, so we were going into HR systems are really going doing the E T l process, but manually sometimes. And we took a pause at one point because we realized that we're spending a good 70% of our time just doing that and maybe 5% of our time storytelling. Now our strength was the storytelling. And so you see how that balance wasn't really there. And eso Jim, my leader pause. It pulls the challenge of Is there a better way of doing this on DSO? We scan the industry, and that's how we came across that spot. And the first time I saw the tool, I fell in love. There's not a way for me to describe it. I fell in love because I love the I love the the innovation that it brought in terms of removing the middleman off, having to create all these layers between the data and me. I want to touch the data. I want to feel it, and I want to ask questions directly to it, and that's what that's what does for us. So when we launched when we launch thoughts about for our team, we immediately saw the difference in our ability to provide our stakeholders with better answers faster. And the combination of the two makes us actually quite dangerous right on. But it has been It has been a great great journey altogether are inter plantation was done on the cloud because at the time, uh, the the we had access to AWS account and I love to be at the edge of technology, So I figured it would be a good excuse for me to learn more about cloud technology on its been things. Video has been a great journey. Um, my, my background, uh, into analytics comes from science. And so, for me, uh, you know, we are really just stretching the surface off. What is possible in terms off the how well remind data to answer business questions on Do you know, tools like thought spot in combination with technologies. Like all trades, eyes really are really the way to go about it. And the up skilling, um the up skilling off the analysts that comes with it is really, really, really exciting because people who love data want to be able to, um want to be efficient about how they spend time with data. Andi and that's what? That's what I spend a lot of my Korea I'd Comcast and before Comcast doing so It gives me a lot of ah, a lot of pleasure to, um to bring that to my organization and to walk with colleagues outside off. We didn't Comcast to do so The way we the way we use stops, that's what we did not seem is varies. One of the things that I'm really excited about is integrating it with all the tools that we have in our analytics portfolio, and and I think about it as the over the top strategy. Right. Uh, group, like many other groups, wouldn't Comcast and with our organizations also used to be I tools. And it is not, um, you choose on a mutually exclusive strategies, right? Eso In our world, we build decision making, uh, decision making tools from the analysis that we generate. When we have the read out with the cells channel leaders, we we talk about the insight, and invariably there's some components off those insight that they want to see on a regular basis. That becomes a reporting activity. We're not in a reporting team. We partner with reporting team for them to think that input and and and put it on and create a regular cadence for it. Uh, the over the top strategy for me is, um, are working with the reporting team to then embed the link to talk spot within the report so that the questions that can be answered by the reports left dashboard are answered within the dashboard. But we make sure that we replicate the data source that feeds that report into thought spot so that the additional questions can then be insert in that spot. It and it works really well because it creates a great collaboration with our partners on the on the reporting side of the house on it also helps of our end the end users do the cell service in along the analytic spectrum, right? You go to the report when you can, when all you need is dropped down the filters and when the questions become more sophisticated, you still have a platform in the place to go to ask the questions directly and do things that are a bit funk here, like, you know, use for like you because you don't know what you're looking for. But you know that there's there's something there to find. >>Yeah, so yeah, I mean, a quick question. Our think would be on this year's analytics meet Cloud open for everyone and your experience. What does that mean to you? Including in the context of the thought spot community inside Comcast? >>Oh yes, it's the Comcast community. The passport commedia Comcast is very vibrant. My peers are actually our colleagues, who I have in my analytics village prior to us getting on board with hot spot and has been a great experience for us. So have thoughts, but as an additional kind of topic Thio to connect on. So my team was the second at Comcast to implement that spot. The first waas, the product team led by Skylar, and he did his instance on Prem. Um, he the way that he brings his data is, is through a sequel server. When I came what, as I mentioned earlier, I went on the cloud because, as I mentioned earlier, I like to be on the edge of technology and at the time thought spot was moving towards towards the cloud. So I wanted to be part of that wave. There's Ah, mobile team has a new instance that is on the cloud thing. The of the compliance team uses all tricks, right? And the S O that that community to me is really how the intellectual capital that we're building, uh, using thought spot is really, really growing on by what happens to me. And the power of being on the cloud is that if we are all using the same tool, right and we are all kind of bringing our data together, um, we are collaborating in ways that make the answer to the business questions that the C suite is asking much better, much richer. They don't always come to us at the same time, right? Each function has his own analytics group, Andi. Sometimes if we are not careful, we're working silo. But the community allows us to know about what each other are working on. And the fact that we're using the same tool creates a common language that translates into opportunities for collaboration, which will translate into, as I mentioned earlier, richer better on what comprehensive answers to the business. So analyst Nick the cloud means better, better business and better business answers and and better experiences for customers at the end of the day, so I'm all for it. >>That's great. Yeah. Comcast is obviously a very large enterprise. Lots of data sources, lots of data movement. It's cool to hear that you have a bit of a hybrid architecture, er thought spot both on premise. Stand in the cloud and you did bring up one other thing that I think is an important question for Steve. Most people may just think of all tricks as an E T l tool, but I know customers like Comcast use it for way more than just that. Can you expand upon the differences between what people think of a detail tool and what all tricks is today? >>Yeah, I think of E. T L tools as sort of production class source to target mapping with transformations and data pipelines that air typically built by I t. To service, you know, major areas within the business, and that's super valuable. One doesn't go away, and in all tricks can provide some of that. But really, it's about the end user empowerment. So going back to some of guys means examples where you know there may be some new information that you receive from a third party or even a spreadsheet that you develop something on. You wanna start to play around that information so you can think of all the tricks as a data lab or data science workbench, in fact, that you know, we're in the Gartner Magic Quadrant for data science and machine learning platforms. Because a lot of that innovation is gonna happen at the individual level we're trying to solve. And over time, you might want to take that learning and then have I t production eyes it within another system. But you know, there's this trade off between the agility that end users need and sort of the governance that I t needs to bring. So we work best in a environment where you have that in user autonomy. You could do E tail workloads, data prep and Glenn bringing your own information on then work with i t. To get that into the right server based environment to scale out in the thought spot and other applications that you develop new insights for the business. So I see it is ah, two sides of the same coin. In many ways, a home. And >>with that we're gonna hand it back over to a Paula. >>Thank you, Nate, Yasmin and Steve for the insights into the journey of the analyst of the future. Next up in a couple minutes, is our third session of today with Ruhollah Benjamin, professor of African American Studies at Princeton University, and our chief data strategy officer, Cindy House, in do a couple of jumping jacks or grab a glass of water and don't miss out on the next important discussion about diversity and data.

>> Narrator: From around the globe, it's theCube. With digital coverage of AWS re:Invent 2020. Special coverage sponsored by AWS worldwide public sector. >> Hello and welcome to theCube virtual, and our coverage of AWS re:Invent 2020 with special coverage of public sector. We are theCube virtual and I'm your host, Justin Warren, and today I'm joined by two people. We have Jim Richberg the CISO for Public Sector from Fortinet who comes to us from Washington DC. Jim, welcome. >> Thank you. Thank you, Justin. >> And we also have Kenny Holmes. Who's the head of worldwide Public Sector Go-to-market from Fortinet as well. And he comes to us from Chicago in Illinois. Kenny, thanks. >> Yes, thank you. Thank you, Justin. >> Gentlemen, welcome to theCube. Now this year has been pretty dramatic and for a lot of us as I'm sure you're very well aware and it's been a bit of an accelerator for people's interest in public cloud in particular for the public sector. So what have you seen, Kenny? Sorry, Jim, we'll start with you around the federal government's interest in cloud. What have you noticed in their adoption of public cloud and AWS in this year? >> So, we used to joke in the federal government in my 34 years, they'll never let a good crisis go to waste. That you can make an upside out of any situation. And as you noted, Justin this has been a dramatic accelerator to federal government's adoption of cloud. Three quarters of the agencies were already moving in the direction of the cloud and planning to spend roughly $8 billion on it this year. And that was pre COVID. And the pace certainly picked up. We had the guidance that came out of DHS, the interim guidance that facilitated abilities to let these now as of mid-March remote teleworkers connect directly to the cloud without having to connect back through their agency infrastructure. So they issued very quick guidance to say, look you got to get the job done. You got to get it done in the cloud. So they did that as a way to accelerate it in the short term. And then they put out the guidance later this year for a trusted internet connection access which had a use case that was built around again facilitating the ability to say you can connect directly to the cloud with security in that direct line stack. You no longer have to haul your data back to the enterprise edge, to the data center on-premise to then go straight out to the cloud. So the federal government said we will give you the ability to move in the direction of cloud and the agencies have been using this at scale. And that's why roughly half of the federal workforce is now working from home. And many of them are using cloud-based applications and services. So the dramatic impact on the federal government. >> Yeah, we've seen it here in Nate in my home of Australia. The federal government is very keen on that but there's other levels of government as I'm sure we're all aware. Particularly as state and even local governments. So Kenny, maybe you could give us a bit of a flavor for how does local and that more regional government have they been doing it basically the same as federal government or is there something unique to the way that they've had to adapt? >> Well, state and local governments are certainly facing the really the perfect storm of the rising demand and declining resources. The pandemic has certainly driven, a lower tax base and lower revenues. And as a result of that, we've seen adjustments in budgets, et cetera but we're also in a position uniquely where it's also driving digital innovation at the same time. So we're seeing the two of those and they don't necessarily have kind of diabolically opposed if you think about it. So, the two of those are coming together but so they're doing more with less and they're using digital transformation to get there where in the commercial world a lot of folks who've been doing digital transformation for a long time. Now, government is being more forced into doing it. And they're really embracing that from our perspective. So we've seen traditionally security be at the top of their demands from a CIO perspective and their most important initiatives. The now we're seeing digital transformation and more specifically we're seeing cloud, right be a key part of that. So, they've done things initially, obviously moving email and some of those things but today we're seeing an increasing amount of workloads that we're seeing them, move from maybe a previous provider, over to AWS et cetera. So, those are some of the things that we're seeing from our state and local perspective >> To build on Kenny's point. I think the key differentiator Justin, between the federal and the state and local experience has been the resources, the federal government with COVID. The federal government runs a deficit. We've seen the deficit balloon, federal spending is up 17 to 20%, not what it's passed out of the stimulus money but simply what government is spending at the federal level. So we are using cloud at the federal level to do more as Kenny noted, state governments and local governments because they're funded exclusively by taxes they can't run a deficit. They have had to say we need to spend smarter because we can't spend more. We can't even spend as much and oh my goodness we have to deliver more digital services at the same time. So for them it has been a matter of having to eke greater efficiencies out of every dollar which has pointed them in the direction of AWS and the cloud in a different sense. And the federal government that said there's greater efficiencies because we need our remote telework people to get the job done, state government, it's the perfect storm. And if they don't do this they're literally going to have to curtail vital services. >> Yeah and as we've seen the security challenge pretty much is the same everywhere. I mean, there's some variations in exactly one sort of threat you might have as a federal government compared to local but broadly speaking, the malware and ransomware and things of that nature is pretty much just a miasma that we have to wade through. So what does, Fortinet helping with these customers, particularly as they move to as you mentioned, they're moving a lot of things into AWS. So what is Fortinet's role there in helping customers make better use of public cloud? >> So I think one of the things that Fortinet really has brought to this equation is they really are a very broad based cybersecurity provider. The biggest problem that organizations typically have, of course, you know in the cloud, it's misconfiguration by the customer. It's not AWS that's making the mistake 99% plus of the time it's misconfiguration by the customer. So having the ability to say if you know how to do your security in an on-premise environment, and you've got controls, capabilities and settings that you're comfortable with you can migrate those intact if they work for you into your cloud environment. So the fact that we are soup to nuts, that we have things at the edge and offer that same suite of capabilities in AWS allows us to be able to tell, help the users if they've configured it right, not have to go back and start from scratch and say, well, now that I'm in AWS I need to reconfigure other than as you have to do it because it's a different platform, but if you've got the policies in place that are managing security managing risk well for your enterprise carry them forward to a different environment. >> I think Kenny is that a particular opportunity there for local government? As you mentioned that restrained resources means that it's much more difficult for them to correctly configure their environments but also to make this level of change, they have a lot of other responsibilities it's difficult to become cybersecurity experts. Is that where you see Fortinet helping a great deal in more local government. >> Yes it is one of the key areas. The best way you can think of it is the ability to do what Jim was saying in a single pane of glass. And the fact that we can do that. That's something you don't hear a lot about anymore, but Fortinet actually is one of the largest security providers in the world. Has it single pane of glass across, being able to manage your on-prem infrastructure being able to manage whether if someone's migrating away from another cloud over to AWS and being able to look at these holistically it's just a fantastic way for them to be efficient as well as around training and certifications and helping our customers to be able to take advantage of the products without additional costs or other things that I've been throwing down the gauntlet for other providers to say, hey, security shouldn't be something else that they have to invest. They're going to invest in your technology. You should provide them with the training, provide them with security awareness, sobriety with certifications around your product that should be table stakes. >> And we do see a lot of that structure of how to do this and provide that training tends to be the same regardless of where you are. Is that something that we see say to getting defined at federal government level with some of the standards and then that then sort of trickles down into more local government. Kenny, is that something that you see happening at all? Or are we seeing things defined at local government that are actually going back the other way? >> Yeah, well, compliance runs across both. I mean, there's probably more compliance on the federal side that Jim could speak to but there's certainly compliance is always a major factor. And it can't be that just we need to do one-off solutions for a particular compliance issue. It needs to be holistic as we're talking about it. If I have to pick solutions based on what and where they're protecting. And now I have to think about the compliance for those as well. That's yet another thing to think about, I don't see our customers thinking that way. They don't have the skillsets to continue to evolve that way. That's an expanded, use of what they're doing and they just don't have those resources. So they have to be able to do more with less we've talking about, and to be able to take a platform like the fabric that Fortinet it offers it really offers that to them. >> At the federal level I'm not even sure that I would characterize it as compliance and regulatory things that state local government have to do, but the National Institute of Standards and Technology NIST tends to promulgate what are considered best practices. Then your cybersecurity framework has basically been adopted globally modified by certain places. And I did too in different ways, but when NIST comes up with something like zero trust architecture, new standards are understood, the 800 Series. I'm surprised people in local government where we'll talk about 800-53 or 800-207, just like we fed geeks too. So it's really setting best practices and standards that are different from compliance but to build on Kenny's point about resources where I think Kenny has flown the other way from local government up has been in the direction of saying state and local government had been the Canary in the coal mine on saying, you have to migrate to the cloud as a way of doing more with less. So the federal government has been turning the printing press, turning the crank faster and faster that will change, and this is one where can say you're spending smarter by moving in the direction of AWS and in accelerating that growth into the cloud, because my prediction as a former intelligence analyst is probably this time next year, a lot of federal agencies will be having the discussion about how to live in a much tightened budgetary environment because we went through something called sequestration 10 years ago that made for very tight zero sum budgeting. That's going to be a coming attraction and that's going to push federal government even more, so with the saying, I got to get the data off of Graham. I've got to continue to telework, Hey, and look we can follow the best practices of state and local government in this case. >> Well, it certainly sounds like we'll be able to learn from each other and adapt it. It's not going away. We're certainly going to have cybersecurity issues for the foreseeable future, but it sounds like there's a lot of work happening and there is room for happiness about how things are generally going. So, gentlemen, thank you so much for joining us here and please thank you to my guest Jim Richberg and Kenny Holmes from Fortinet. You've been watching theCube virtual and our coverage of AWS re:Invent 2020 with special coverage of the public sector. Make sure you check out all the rest of our coverage on your desktop laptop or phone wherever you might be. I've been your host, Justin Warren. I look forward to seeing you again soon. (soft upbeat music)

>> Announcer: From Austin, Texas it's theCube, covering Pure Storage Accelerate 2019. Brought to you by Pure Storage. >> Howdy from Austin, Lisa Martin with Dave Vellante we are on day one of our coverage of Pure Accelerate 2019. Welcoming a couple of guests to theCube. One is an alumni, Nathan Hall, VP of America's Systems Engineering from Pure, Nathan welcome back to theCube. >> Thanks, thanks very much. >> Lisa: And you brought a buddy from Cisco. We have Tom Sutliff, director of systems engineering and the America's data center, welcome to the Cube Tom. >> Thanks for having me. >> Dave: It's howdy you all. >> Howdy you all, okay. Thank you, it took the wicked smart guy from Boston to figure that out. >> A local. >> All right, so you all, let's talk about Cisco and Pure, you guys have been partners now since, Nathan we were chatting, since about the IPO, about four years ago. Let's start with you Nathan, our Pure guy. The Cisco, Pure partnership evolution, better together? What have you done over those last five years that sets you up for another first that you're going to share with us today? >> Sure, so it's a deep relationship that's only getting deeper and it's really at all levels. It starts with the executive alignment and think about Charlie Giancarlo from Cisco we've got a lot of just common, cross pollination there. But now it extends, certainly the field level, Tom and I are doing a lot of planning together in terms of having our teams go after common use cases. But now it extends to engineering as well, we had a UCS director plugin that we've had for some time now but Pure is now first in terms of having integration into Cisco intersight, so we are first and only to have storage integration of the Cisco intersight so that Cisco and Pure customers can really manage their environment from one console, so a lot of simplicity, just single SaaS interface for managing everything. >> Tom why Pure, why first with them? >> Well you know Nathan he articulated it well, we can look at the executive level, we talked about Charlie, but even, you know all of our Cisco executives but also to the engineering. We started really strong with the field sales teams but even if you look at the little things that our customers notice but a lot of people may not like the internal development of validated design guides, use cases. We churn them out with Pure as our top ecosystem partner, more than anybody and there's a lot of work being done, our customers see that and it's really helped drive our goal to market together it's really a very strong strategy. >> So there's a CVD around this is that right? >> Yeah there's many there's 22 right now and we're churning them out about one or two a quarter. With some vendors we might put out some initially we might do one or two things well, we do a lot of things well I guess you could say we do 22 things well with the CVD's but more than that. >> So this really started in the field if I understand correctly is that right? [Nathan] - Yes. >> So I always look for these deals and say is it a Barney deal, you know Barney deal I love you, you love me. And if there's real engineering going on then you say okay it's beyond a Barney deal. So it starts in the field with what, hey we should you know a customer wants us to work together and then how does the partnership evolve into where you're putting engineering resources and what does that look like? >> I think a lot of it evolves from just showing progress and showing success. If you look at, we just have a lot of common goals and from a portfolio perspective we fill in a lot of each others gaps so that's really where it started was having the success in the field and that drove, we should actually make greater investments in terms of engineering development, those 22 CVD's, the intersight integration, et cetera. >> So we were talking earlier about CI, HCI for audience members who it's kind of nuanced, how do you guys look at the intersection of those two? >> I say it's another better together story, for example we have a recent joint customer win where essentially across their entire SAP landscape we have Cisco hyper flex the HX managing the database portion, we have FlashStack with Pure Storage managing the Hanna portion, and really it all comes down to single console which is intersight. So we're really able to provide the best type of infrastructure for the right workload at the right time but all make it look like one single experience to the customer. >> So from a customer conversation perspective let's go back to you know we've talked about now this exciting new first engineering alignment. Going back to the field where customers have a multitude of workloads, SAP, Oracle, Microsoft, FEEdi, and there's FlashStack like 31 flavors of FlashStack right. What's that conversation like in terms of CI versus HCI when you guys come into play? Obviously FlashStack being I mentioned a number of flavors of that have been around for awhile, how do you help the customers determine what infrastructure is optimal for their workloads and their business objectives? >> You know there's a clear delineation between a hyper convergence, our HX platform, a hyper flex platform, and the converged infrastructure that we have with FlashStacks. If you look at a FlashStack it's an all in one solution, compute, fabric, storage. It's more for tier one apps, something that's you know scalable, something that's a highly dense tier one application. Latency obviously plays into this you know, I'd say it's a little less with the hyper flex platform and hyper convergence, much easier to stand up, much quicker to stand up within a half an hour. It's a storage play it does many of the similar same things but you know we're kind of closing the gap on both of them because even what you would call that smaller platform that started off at more tier one, excuse me tier two and tier three is now moving into the tier one space so. But it's really about scalability, ease of use, some of them are stronger in some markets like maybe a higher enterprise. But we can sell them across anywhere whether it be public sector, commercial, mid market, smaller customers. But they each have use cases that they fit in very well. >> This morning in the key notes we heard a lot about API's, I want to get into Multi Cloud in a second but before I do we talk a lot about infrastructures code, DevOps, we heard a lot about Kubernetes, a little bit about Kubernetes this morning. And the Cisco DevNet I've often said on theCUBE that they're the only large established company that's figured out how to do something for developers. Now does your partnership extend into sort of infrastructures code, how does that all sort of go through? Is DevNet a play here or even on the roadmap? >> Nathan: So from DevNet can you take that one? >> Well I can say yes it is a play, if you take a look at all of our solutions, primarily the compute and the fabric solutions, programmability is really a key function that we have and the customers can go in and they can actually working with our API's, API's that we work with separate with other vendors too that are dedicated to other vendors. It is a key thing and DevNet became to the forefront probably about five years ago and it was really built off of that development effort so that's critical for us going forward here there's a lot that we're doing I know we're going to talk about intersight and some other things where that was a key element of it. >> Yeah so this is important. You were at Cisco Live. >> And Cisco DevNet. >> And we were in the DevNet zone and you remember, you had many many booths, very specialized, then you have CCIE's learning python, learning how to program infrastructure for new use cases, edge comes in. Anything you'd add Nathan to sort of programmability? >> So I think just from day one from Pure Storage just having our restful API interface, having code.purestorage.com we've tried to make it as much automatable as possible, as easy for to really create a community of developers that can create these integrations very quickly, and honestly evidence of that is in intersight itself. How quickly we got that integration happening is because of that restful API interface. We were able to take the kind of AI Ops of Pure One and bring it into intersight, be able to get intersight to talk to Pure Storage very easily because of that strength of API first. >> What do we need to know about intersight? Add some color there, what is it, how's it work, what's the kind of history and how do you guys turn what you're doing in integration into customer value? >> So if I look at, going back to your comments around why converge versus hyper converge, it's often really a story of simplicity right? Customers want something simple for the data center, they know they can get it out in the Cloud but they can't always run their workloads out in the external Cloud. So simplicity is for intersight, no matter what it is, if it's converged or hyper converged, if it's Pure Storage, being able to have single interface to monitor your infrastructure, lifecycle it, to get really specific imagine a VMware administrator is able to in that single console, provision storage from Pure to a UCS server, format it for VMware ESX and VMFS, and in that single console so doesn't have to go to a bunch of different consoles, gets that Cloud like experience and that's what intersight delivers. So you get that simplicity whether its converged or hyper converged with intersight. >> Whether it's in the Cloud, it's the Edge, it's the Branch, Hybrid Cloud, instead of having to manage it I think that Nathan just hit on these single clusters of storage, compute, what have you. These can all be managed from one single console world wide no matter where they sit. >> So I want to talk about Multi Cloud if we can. So if I look at the players in Multi Cloud, the big whales, VMware, Red Hat, Google, Microsoft, and Cisco, you partner with all of those pretty much I think. AWS is not on the list but you figure they're kind of the facto part of the Multi Cloud scene but they're not going after Multi Cloud, Cisco was a relatively new entrant there. You got companies that have a Cloud like Microsoft and Google that want to participate, you've got companies that don't have a Cloud like Cisco that want to participate, where does Pure fit in to that Multi Cloud opportunity and how does it relate to the partnership? >> Well I think where we found a solid partnership with Cisco and Multi Cloud is the same approach to Multi Cloud and that is I'd call it open Multi Cloud. As opposed to having, forcing a single type of hyper visor on one side or a single Cloud, external Cloud on the other side, how do we make certain that our customers can run any app, anywhere? How do we appear and provide the data fabric having the most efficient amenity of fabric out there to kind of get around the data gravity problems of moving workloads, and we do that now with Pure Flash right on premises, Cloud block store out in the Cloud, our ability to Cloud snap to Azure, to AWS, and that's part of the story. The other part of the story is the fabric and the compute. So with ACI anywhere really that compeletes the any workload anywhere story, and keeping it open so it's not just one hyper visor or one Cloud provider on the other side. >> So you be the data plane in that equation, with the management of that data plane, and Cisco is the overall management framework the control plane I guess we could call that. Is that the right way to think about it? >> I'd say part of the control plane and the network fabric as well, and we're part of essentially the consistent data services no matter where you go. So really upleveling for example EBS to an enterprise grade of storage that it wasn't before, now we have something that whether you're on hardware on premises or in the cloud, you can run that monolithic application in places you couldn't do it before. >> So let's look at this in the real world in a customer environment, talk to me about whatever kind of whether it's a bank or an airline or what have you, what are the business benefits that, we'll use delta Airlines as an example, what would they get out of this if they think of all of the things that they need to achieve internally and be able to deliver to their customers? What's that you know TCO, ROI, what are all those sexy things that you guys are delivering? >> So I'd say they get essentially a lot of the barriers to getting the TCO you want for a given workload are based on compatibility. Maybe you want to run it out in Amazon but you can't get it there because it's this massive monolithic gap, the sync would take days, the SLA out there isn't quite what you want. Now being able to provide a consistent experience no matter where that data plane is, you get that choice. You can go and evaluate AWS or Azure and say that's ultimately the right TCO for my application and I know it could run out there because I've essentially standardized my data fabric anywhere, and it's the same story essentially now with ACI anywhere as well. So the ability to keep essentially the fundamental elements of the application, the infrastructure around it consistent no matter where it is, freeze that IT decision maker to put it in the right place. You don't have to be constrained by compatibility anymore. >> So internal operations can be dialed way up which means those folks are free to resources to work on other higher value projects, and the customer on the other end who doesn't know any of this stuff is under the hood is getting what they need when they want it. >> Exactly, yeah you can manage if you look at ACI you can manage the automation of the applications across the network fabric again wherever it may be, and there's robustness there, there's telemetry, there's measurements. So instead of just looking at the application you look at the robustness of that on the network and the network here us absolutely critical, none of this is going to run I think as Nathan hit on that it could be in the Cloud, it could be in the Branch, you still want the same level of performance the SLA, the five nines and that's where the network comes in that's what's critical. >> Well and the security piece as well. >> Absolutely. >> You guys are largely coming at the Multi Cloud from of course the network strength that you have but you've also got a security angle there because you can go deep packet inspection and that's a sweet spot for you guys. >> Tom: Absolutely. >> Talk about security and it's importance and so on. >> Well I think the security I mean one of the big plays that we have with ACI and with Tetration is being able to look in literally billions of packets a second and being able to track and make realtime decisions on any type of threat, threat defense that's built right in. So normally obviously you have firewall and you try to keep everything out but a lot of what will happen a lot of the penetration security hack happens inside. So this is able to look at all of the flows, at every single packet the flow of the application and the information to see if there's a threat in real time. It takes a lot of processing power a lot of storage and a lot of capacity but you know that's a Tetration product and it's a huge play, our security team is actually out selling that in addition to the data center teams. >> So is Wallingford Yankee's country or Red Sox country? >> Oh it's right on the border so I've got my in laws Yankee's, my parents Redsox, so it's very difficult at home. >> You're a Pat's fan of course, did you feel dirty watching the game on Sunday or? >> Tom: No not at all. >> Oh you felt good? >> Maybe 19 and O this year we'll see. >> And you're Switzerland in this whole debate? >> I try to be it's hard. >> Well you know this company is Warrior's so we can talk NBA too. >> You bet! >> There's a really interesting NBA season coming up now. Not so much for our team but. (laughter) >> Lisa: You never know! >> You never know. >> I had to try to be Switzerland too cause I was the West Coaster with the East Coaster boss, you know how it goes. So Tom last question for you, whole bunch of announcements that came out of Pure today as we look at all of the partnerships that Pure has we talked about that, that Cisco has as well, what are some of the things that as a partner as a valued strategic partner, that Cisco hears when they hear Pure talking about delivering everything as a service and what they're doing with AI and dialing up things there, what is Ciscos reaction to that news? >> Well the thing with Pure and it preceded this conference but you know I really heard it with the new announcements and Nate and I we have a lot of things we're going to work with our systems engineers on in the Americas, it's just the innovation which is pretty incredible. You know you kind of have the big four products here but primarily with the Flash arrays the CI platforms, the Flash blades, what's going on with Pure one, that's going to be critical going forward and we have very similar messages with Multi Cloud. We talked about the validated designs, this is really going to lead us to almost like it's kind of funny when you have an innovative partner you can do reboots every year and people don't think you're just throwing work at them or what have you. It's like now we really innovated again, 12, 15 months later we're going to hit this again and come at it. And so Pure is probably one of the only partners we have that type of relationship with. >> Alright well guys thank you so much for joining Dave and me on theCUBE today we appreciate it. We look forward to following the evolution of this Cisco Pure partnership, thanks for your time. >> Thank you. >> Thank you guys. >> For Dave Vellante, I'm Lisa Martin, you're watching theCUBE ya'll from Pure Accelerate in Austin, Texas. (upbeat music)

from Boston Massachusetts it's the cube covering Activia 2019 data-driven to you by Activia welcome to Boston everybody this is Dave Volante and I'm here with stupid man finally still in our hometown you're watching the cube the leader in live tech coverage we're covering actifi Oh data-driven hashtag data-driven 19 activity it was a company that is focus started focused on copy data management they sort of popularized the term the I the concept the idea of data virtualization there's big data digital transformation all the buzz it's kind of been a tailwind for the company and we followed them quite closely over the years poly st. Claire is here she's the CEO of the state of Massachusetts that's chief of ditch and chief data officer Holly thanks for coming on the Q thanks for having me so it's kind of rare that somebody shares the title of chief digital officer of chief data officer I think it's rare right now I think that would change you think it will change I think those two roles will come together I just think data fuels our digital world and it both creates the content and also monitors how we're doing and it's just inevitably I think either they're gonna be joined at the hip or it's gonna be the same person that's interesting I always thought the chief data officer sort of emerged from this wonky back-office role data quality of this careful the word walking okay well yeah let's talk about that but the chief digital officer is kind of the mover the shaker has a little marketing genius but but okay so you see those two roles coming together that maybe makes sense because why because there's there some tension in a lot of organizations between those two roles well I think the challenge with the way that sometimes people think about data is they think about it's only a technical process data is actually very creative and you also have to tell a story in order to be good with it it's the same thing as marketing but it's just a little bit of a different hue a different type of audience a different type of pace there's a technical component to the data work but I'm looking at my organization that I'm surrounded by additional technical folks CTO CSO privacy officer CIO so we have a lot of supports that might take away some of those roles are scrunched in under the data officer or the digital so I used to turn wonky before it kind of triggered you a little bit but but you're a modeler you're a data scientist your development programmer right no but I know enough to I know enough to read code and get in trouble okay so you can direct coders and you have data scientists working for you yeah right so you've got that entire organization underneath you and your your mission is blank fill in the blank so our mission is to use the best information technology to ensure that every users experience with the Commonwealth is fast easy and wicked awesome awesome Holly our team just got back from a very large public sector event down in DC and digging into you know how our agency is doing with you know cloud force initiatives how are they doing the city environments you were state of Massachusetts and you know rolled out that that first chief data if you keep dipped officer gets a little bit of insight inside how Massachusetts doing with these latest waves of innovation uh well you know we have our legacy systems and as our opportunities come up to improve those systems our reinvest in them we are taking a step forward to cloud we're not so dogmatic that it's cloud only but it's definitely cloud when it's appropriate I do think we'll always have some on-prem services but really when it's possible whether it's a staff service off-the-shelf or it's a cloud environment to make sense than we are moving to that in your keynote this morning you you talked about something called data minimalism yeah and wonder if you could explain that for audience because for the longest time it's been well you want to hoard all the data you want to get all the data and you know what do you do with it how do you manage you right right I mean data's only as good as your ability to use it and I often find that we're ingesting all this data and we don't really know what to do with it or really rather our business leaders and decision-makers can't quite figure out how to connect that to the mission or to act properly interrogate the data to get the information they want and so this idea is an idea that's sort of coming a little bit out of Europe and or some of the other trends we see around some cyber security and hacking worlds and the idea is this actually came from fjords Digital Trends for 2019 is data minimalism the idea is that you strongly connect your business objectives to the data collection program that you have you don't just collect data until you're sure that it supports your objectives so you know one of the things that I also talked about in the keynote was not just data minimalism but doing a try test iterate approach we often collect data hoping to see that we can create a change I think we need to prove that we can create the change before we do a widespread scalable data collection program because often we collect data and you still can't see what you're doing has an effect within the data the signals too strong or too too weak or you're asking the wrong question of the data or it's the wrong plectra collection of the technique and that's largely driven from a sort of privacy a privacy privacy the reality of how costly sometimes the kennedys but you know storage of data is cheap but the actual reality of moving it and saving it and knowing where it is and accessing it later that takes time and energy of your of your actual people so I think it's just important for us to think carefully about a resource in government we have a little less resources sometimes in the private sector so we're very strategic on what we do and so I think we need to really think about the data we use if the pendulum swings remember back to the days of you know 2006 the Federal Rules of Civil Procedure said okay you got to keep electronic records for whatever seven years of depending on industry and people said okay let's get rid of it as soon as we can data was viewed as a liability and then of course all the big data height we've talked about a little bit in your in your speech everybody said I could collect everything throw it into a data Lake and we all know those became data swamps so do you feel like the pendulum is swinging and there's maybe a little balance are we reaching an equilibrium is it going to be a you know hard shift back to data as a liability what are your thoughts well I think isn't with any trend there's always a little bit of a pendulum swing as we're learning it's with it with the equilibrium is equilibrium is I think that's a great word I think the piece that I neglected to mention is the relationship to the consumer trust you know for us in government we have to have the trust of our constituents we do have a higher bar than public sector in terms of handling data in a way that's respectful of individuals privacy and their security of their data and so I think to the extent that we are able to lend transparency and show the utility and the data we're using and that will gain the trust of our users or customers but if we continue to do things behind the scenes and not be overt about it I think then that can cause more problems I think we face is organizations to ask ourselves is having more data worth the sort of vulnerability introduces and the possible liability of trust of our of our customers when you betray to test over your customers it's really hard to replace that and so you know to a certain extent I think we should be more deliberate about our data and earn the trust of our customers okay how how does Massachusetts look at the boundary of data between the public sector and the private sector I've talked to you know some states where you know we're helping business off parking by giving you know new mobile apps access to that information you talked a little bit about health care you know I've done interviews with the massive macleod initiative here locally how do you look at that balance of sharing I think it is a real balance you know I don't think we do very much of it yet and we certainly don't share data that were not allowed to by law and we have very strict laws here in Massachusetts the stricter at the ten most states and so I think it's very strategic when we do share data we are looking for opportunities when we can when I talk about demand driven data I look forward to opening the conversation a little bit to ask people what data are they looking for to ask businesses and different institutions we have throughout the Commonwealth what data would help you do your job better and grow our economy and our jobs and I think that's a conversation we need to have over time to figure out what the right balances someday it'll be easier for us to share than others and some will never be able to share the first data scientist I've ever met is somebody I interviewed the amazing Hilary Mason and she said something that I want to circle back to something you said in your talk if she said the hardest part of my job or one of the hardest parts is people come to me with data and and it's the most valuable thing I can do is show them which questions to ask and you have talked about well what's a lot of times you don't know what questions to ask until you look at the data or vice versa what comes first the chicken or the egg what's your experience pin well I do think we need to be driven by the business objectives and goals it doesn't mean there's not an iterative process in there somewhere but you know data wonks we can we can just throw data all day long and still might not give you the answer there forward but I think it's really important for us to be driven by the business and I think executives don't know how to ask the questions of the data they don't know how to interrogate it or honestly more realistically we don't have a date of actually answers the question they want to know so we often have to use proxies for that information but I do think if there's an iterative after you get to a starting point so I do think knowing what the business question is first I know you gotta go but I want to ask your last question bring it back to the state where both Massachusetts residents and your services it sounds like you're picking off some some good wins with a through the fast ROI I mean you mentioned you know driver's license renewals etc how about procurement has procurement been a challenge from the state standpoint you are you looking at sort of the digital process and how to streamline procurement that is a conversation that the secretary what is currently in and I think it's a good one I don't think we have any any solutions yet but I think we have a lot of the issues that were struggling with but we're not alone all public sectors struggling with this type of procurement question so we're working on it all right last question there's quick thoughts on you know what you've seen here I know you're in and out but data-driven yeah it's a great theme it's a really exciting agenda there's people for all these different organizations and approaches to data-driven you know from movie executives and casting to era it's just really exciting to see the program it's Nate Claire thanks so much I'm coming on the queue thank you great to meet you okay keep it right there everybody we'll be back with our next guest right after this short break well the cube is here at data-driven day one special coverage we'll be right back

>> live from Barcelona, Spain. It's the key covering KubeCon Cloud, Native Con Europe twenty nineteen by Red Hat, the Cloud, Native Computing Foundation and Ecosystem Partners. >> Welcome back to Barcelona, Spain >> were here of the era, and seventy seven hundred people are here for the KubeCon Cloud NativeCon, twenty, nineteen, Off student. My co host for the two days of coverage is Corey Quinn, and joining Me are the two co chairs of this CNC event. Janet Cooper, who is also thie, suffer engineer with Google and having done the wrap up on stage in the keynote this morning, find Lyle's a senior staff engineer with BM where thank you both for joining us, >> Thank you. >> Thanks for having me. >> So let's start. We're celebrating five years of Kubernetes as damn calm laid out this morning. You know, of course, you know came from Google board in over a decade of experience there. So it just helps out the state for us. >> Um, so I started working on communities since before the 1.4 release and then steal a project Montana today. And I feel so proud to see, uh, the progress off this project and its has grown exponentially. And today we have already thirty one thousand contributors and expect it to grow even more if you can. >> All right. So, Brian, you work with some of the original people that helped create who Burnett ease because you came to be and where, by way of the FTO acquisition, seventy seven hundred people here we said it. So it's, you know, just about the size of us feel that we had in Seattle a few months ago Way Expect that San Diego is going to be massive when we get there in the fall. But you know, talk to us is the co chair, you know, What's it mean to, you know, put something like this together? >> Well, so as ah is a long time open source person and seeing you know, all these companies move around for, you know, decades. Now it's nice to be a part of something that I saw from the sidelines for so, so long. I'm actually... it's kind of surreal because I didn't do anything special to get here. I just did what I was doing. And you know, Jan and I just wound up here together, so it's a great feeling, and it's the best part about it is whenever I get off stage and I walked outside and I walked back. It's like a ten minute walk each way. So many people are like, Yeah, you really made my morning And that's that's super special. >> Yeah. I mean, look, you know, we're we're huge fans of open source in general and, you know, communities, especially here. So look, there was no, you know, you both have full time jobs, and you're giving your time to support this. So thank you for what you did. And, you know, we know it takes an army to put together in a community. Some of these people, we're Brian, you know, you got upstate talk about all the various project. There's so many pieces here. We've only have a few minutes. Any kind of major highlights You wanna pull from the keynote? >> So the biggest. Actually, I I've only highlight won the open census open. Tracing merge is great, because not only because it's going to make a better product, but he had two pretty good pieces of software. One from Google, actually, literally both from Google. Ultimately, But they realize that. Hey, we have the same goals. We have similar interfaces. And instead of going through this arms race, what they did is sable. This is what we'LL do. We'LL create a new project and will merge them. That is, you know, that is one of the best things about open source. You know, you want to see this in a lot of places, but people are mature enough to say, Hey, we're going to actually make something bigger and better for everyone. And that was my favorite update. >> Yeah, well, I tell you, and I'm doing my job well, because literally like during the keynote, I reached out to Ben. And Ben and Morgan are going to come on the program to talk about that merging later today. That was interested. >> I've often been accused of having that first language being snark, and I guess in that light, something that I'm not particularly clear on, and this is not the setup for a joke. But one announcement that was made on stage today was that Tiller is no longer included in the current version of Wasn't Helm. Yes, yes, And everyone clapped and applauded, and my immediate response was first off. Wow, if you were the person that wrote Tiller, that probably didn't feel so good given. Everyone was copping and happy about it. But it seems that that was big and transformative and revelatory for a lot of the audience. What is Tiller and why is it perceived as being less than awesome? >> All right, so I will give you a disclaimer, >> please. >> The disclaimer is I do not work on the helm project... Wonderful >> ...so anything that I say should be fact checked. >> Excellent. >> So Well, so here's the big deal. When Tiller, when Helm was introduced, they had this thing called Tiller. And what tiller did was it ran at a basically a cluster wide level to make sure that it could coordinate software being installed and Kubernetes named Spaces or groups how Kubernetes applications are distributed. So what happens is is that that was the best vector for security problems. Basically, you had this root level piece of software running, and people were figuring out ways to get around it. And it was a big security hole. What >> they've done Just a component. It's an attack platform. It >> was one hundred percent. I mean, I remember bit. Nami actually wrote a block post. You know, disclaimer of'em were just bought that bit na me. >> Yes, I insisted It's called Bitten, am I? But we'LL get to that >> another. This's a disclaimer, You know, There Now you know there now my co workers But they wrote they were with very good article about a year and a half ago about just all the attack vectors, but and then also gave us solution around that. Now you don't need that solution. What you get by default. Now something is much more secure. And that's the most important piece. And I think the community really loves Helm, and now they have helm with better defaults. >> So, Janet, a lot of people at the show you talk about, you know, tens of thousands of contributors to it. But that being said, there's still a lot of the world that is just getting started. Part of the key note. And I knew you wrote something running workloads and cover Netease talk a little bit about how we're helping you know, those that aren't yet, you know, on board with you getting into the community ship. >> So I work on the C gaps. So she grabs one of the sub fracture that own is the work wells AP Eyes. That's why I had that. What post? About running for closing covered alleys. So basically, you you're using coronaries clarity, baby eyes to run a different type of application, and we call it were close. So you have stay full state wears or jobs and demons and you have different guys to run those clothes in the communities. And then for those who are just getting started, maybe start with, uh, stay last were close. That's the easiest one. And then for people who are looking Teo, contribute war I. I encouraged you to start with maybe small fixes, maybe take some documents or do some small P R's and you're reputations from there and star from small contributions and then feel all the way up. >> Yeah, so you know, one of one of the things when I look out there, you know, it's a complex ecosystem now, and, you know, there's a lot of pieces in there, you know, you know, trend we see is a lot of customers looking for manage services. A lot of you know, you know, I need opinions to help get me through all of these various pieces. You know what? What do you say to those people? And they're coming in And there's that, you know, paradox of choice When they, you know, come, come looking. You know, all the options out there. >> So I would say, Start with something simple that works. And then you can always ask others for advice for what works, What doesn't work. And you can hear from their success stories or failure stories. And then I think I recently he saw Block post about Some people in the community is collecting a potential failure stories. There is also a talk about humanity's fellow, the stories. So maybe you can go there and learn from the old those mistakes and then how to build a better system from there. >> I'd love that. We have to celebrate those failures that we hopefully can learn from them. Find anything on that, You know, from your viewpoint. >> Eso Actually, it's something I research is developer experience for you. Bernetti. So my communities is this whole big ping. I look on top of it and I'm looking at the outside in howto developers interact with Burnett, ese. And what we're seeing is that there's lots of room for opportunities and Mohr tools outside of the main community space that will help people actually interact with it because that's not really communities. Developers responsibility, you know, so one anything that I think that we're doing now is we're looking and this is something that we're doing and be aware that I can talk about is that we're looking at a P ice we're looking at. We realize that client go, which is the way that you burnett ese talks with sapi eyes, and a lot of people are using out externally were looking at. But what does it actually mean for human to use this and a lot of my work is just really around. Well, that's cool for computers. Now, what if a human has to use it? So what we're finding is that no. And I'm going to talk about this in my keynote tomorrow. You know, we're on this journey, and Kubernetes is not the destination. Coover Netease is the vehicle that is getting us to the destination that we don't even know what it is. So there's lots of spaces that we can look around to improve Kubernetes without even touching Cooper Netease itself, because actually, it's pretty good and it's fairly stable in a lot of cases. But it's hard, and that's the best part. So that's, you know, lots of work for us, the salt >> from my perspective. One of the turning points in Kou Burnett is a success. Story was when it got beyond just Google. Well, folks working on it. For better or worse, Google has a certain step of coding standards, and then you bring it to the real world, where there are people who are, Let's be honest, like me, where my coding standard is. I should try to right some some days, and not everything winds up having the same constraints. Not everything has the same approach. To some extent, it really feels like a tipping point for all of it was when you wind up getting to a position where people are bringing their real world workload that don't look like anything, anyone would be able to write a googol and keep their job. But still having to work with this, there was a wound up being sort of blossoming effect really accelerating the project. Conversely, other large infrastructure projects we need not mention when they had that tipping point in getting more people involved, they sort of imploded on themselves. I'm curious. Do you have any thoughts as to why you Burnett? He started thriving where other projects and failed trying to do the same things. >> I have something you go first. And >> I think the biggest thing about cybernetics is the really strong community and the ecosystem and also communities has the extensive bility for you to build on top of communities. We've seen people building from works, and then the platform is different platforms. Open source platforms on top of you. Burnett is so other people can use on other layers. Hyah. Layers off stacks on top of fraternities. Just use those open source. So, for example, we have the CRD. It's an A P I that allows you to feel your own customized, overnighted style FBI, so they're using some custom for couple databases. You could just create your own carbonated style FBI and call out your database or other stuffs, and then you can combine them into your own platform. And that's very powerful because everywhere. I can just use the same FBI, the Carbonari style idea to manage almost everything and that enables a Teo be able to, you know, on communities being adopted in different industry, such as I o t. A and Lord. >> So actually, this is perfect because the sleaze and so what I was going to say The secret of community is that we don't talk about actually job, Ada says. It's a lot, but it's a communities is a platform for creating platforms. So Kubernetes really is almost built on itself. You can extend Cooper. Netease like communities extends itself with the same semantics that it lets users extended. So Janet was talking about >> becoming the software that is eating the world. Yeah, it >> literally is. So Janet talked about the CRD sees custom resource definitions. It's the same. It's the same mechanism that Kubernetes uses to add new features. So whenever you're using these mechanisms, you're using Kou Burnett. He's basically the Cooper Nate's infrastructure to create. So really, what it is is that this is the tool kit for creating your solutions. What is why I say that Kubernetes is not an end point its its journey. >> So the cloud native system. >> So you know what? Yeah, and I like I like the limits analogy that people talk about. Like Coburn. Eighties is is like clinics. If you think about how Lennox you know little l. Lennox. Yeah. You know, I'm saying little l olynyk sub Let's put together. Yeah, you Burnett. He's like parts of communities would be system. And it's it's all these components come together the creature operating system, and that's the best part about it. >> Okay, so for me, the people that are not the seventy seven hundred that air here give them a little bit of, you know, walk around the show and some of the nooks and crannies that they might not know, like, you know, for myself having been to a number of these like Boy, there were so many half day and full day workshops yesterday there were, like, at least, like fifteen or seventeen or something like that that I saw, You know, obviously there's some of the big keynote. The Expo Hall is sprawling it, you know, I've been toe, you know, fifteen twenty thousand people show here This sex Bohol feels is bustling ahs that one is and well as tons of breakout session. So, you know, give us some of the things that people would have been missing if they didn't come to the show here. >> So just for the record, if you missed the show, you can still watch all the videos online. And then you can also watch the lifestream for keynotes so on. I personally love the applicant the different ways for a customizing covered at ease. So there's Ah, customizing overnight is track. And also there's the apple that applications track and I personally love that. And also I like the color case studies So you can't go to the case studies track to see on different users and users off Cooper, Natty shared. There were war stories, >> Yes, So I think that she will miss. There's a few things that you'll miss if you if you're not here in Barcelona right now, the first thing is that this convention center is huge. It's a ten minute walk from the door to where we're sitting right now, but more seriously, one. The things you'LL miss is that before the conference starts, there are there are a whole bunch of summits, Red had had a summit and fewer people had some. It's yesterday where they talk about things. There's the training sessions, which a lot of cases aren't recorded. And then another thing is that the special interest groups, the cigs. So Cooper ninety six, they all get together and they have faced the face discussions and then generally one from yesterday We're not. We're not recorded. So what you're missing is the people who actually make this big machine turn. They get together face to face and they first of all, they built from a rotary. But they get to discuss items that have require high bit of bandwith that you really can't do over again of issue or email, or even even a slack call like you can actually get this thing solved. And the best thing is watching these people. And then you watch the great ideas that in, you know, three, six months to a year become like, really big thing. So I bet yesterday, so something was discussed. Actually, I know of some things that we discussed yesterday that might fundamentally change how we deal with communities. So that's that is the value of being here and then the third thing is like when you come to a conference like this, where there's almost a thousand people, there's a lot of conversations that happened between, you know, the Expo Hall and the session rooms. And there's, um there's, you know, people are getting jobs here, People are finding new friends and people are learning. And before thing and I'll end with This is that I walk around looking for people who come in on the on the diversity scholarships, and I would not hear their stories if I did not come. So I met two people. I met a young lady from New Zealand who got the scholarship and flew here, you know, and super smart, but is in New Zealand and university, and I get to hear her insights with life. And then I get to share how you could be better in the same thing. I met a gentleman from Zimbabwe yesterday was going to school and take down, and what I hear is that there's so many smart people without opportunities, so if you're looking for opportunities, it's in these halls. There's a lot of people who have either money for you or they have re sources were really doesn't have a job or just you know what? Maybe there's someone you can call whenever you're stuck. So there is a lot of benefit to come into these. If you can get here, >> talent is evenly distributed. Opportunity is not. So I think the diversity scholarship program is one of the most inspirational things I saw mentioned out of a number of inspirational things that >> I know. It's It's my favorite part of communities. You know, I am super lucky that I haven't employees that our employer that can afford to send me here. Then I'm also super lucky that I probably couldn't afford to send myself here if I wanted to. And I do as much as I can to get people >> here. Well, Brian and Janet thank you so much for all you did to put this and sharing it with our community here. I'Ll repeat something that I said in Seattle. Actually, there was a lot of cloud shows out there. But if you're looking for you know, that independent cloud show that you know, lives in this multi hybrid cloud, whatever you wanna call it world you know this is one of the best out there. And the people? Absolutely. If you don't come with networking opportunities, we had into it on earlier, and they talked about how you know, this is the kind of place you come and you find a few people that you could hire to train the hundreds of people inside on all of the latest cloud native pieces. >> Can I say one thing, please? Brian S O, this is This is significant and it's significant for Janet and I. We are in the United States. We are, you know, Janet is a minority and I am a minority. This is the largest open source conference in the world. Siri's This is the largest open source conference in Europe. When we do, when we do, it ended a year. Whenever we do San Diego, it'Ll be the largest open source conference in the world. And look who's running it. You know, my new co chair is also a minority. This is amazing. And I love that. It shows that people who look like us we can come up here and do these things because like you said, opportunity is is, you know, opportunities the hard thing. Talent is everywhere. It's all over the place. And I'm glad we had a chance to do this. >> All right. Well, Brian, Janet, thank you so much for all of that. And Cory and I will be back with more coverage after this brief break. Thank you for watching the cues.

>> from San Francisco. It's the Cube covering the M Wear Radio twenty nineteen. Brought to you by the M >> where >> Hi. Welcome to the Cube. Lisa Martin with John Farrier at the fifteenth annual Veum, Where radio, which is there are anti innovation summit. Pleased to welcome back one of the Cube alumni extraordinaire CEO Being where hot girl singer. Hey, Pat. Good morning. >> Good morning. Great to be with you guys today. Thanks >> so much Right to be here. So this this is the fifteenth radio your internal innovation summit that really has been very influential. NPM wears development over the last fifteen or so years About eighteen hundred engineers here. So each year growing Mohr and Mohr interest, excitement cross collaboration with India More talk to us about how this is really worthy of the CEOs. Time to come here. And with this geek fest, >> well, it is, in many ways, just one of these pieces of the VM wear R and D culture is a research and development innovation off site. And it's something, you know, long preceded me. But when I got here, it's like I'm going to keep doing it. Of course we are. You know this is sort of like the party for the top engineers, right? You know, they get to come geek out, share their best ideas, interact with each other. So it's become one of those unique pieces of our of our development culture and ultimately is, I say, bm where well to do two things right, developed great, breakthrough, innovative, disrupt the products and make our customers successful with those products. So everything that we do sort of centers around those two things. And obviously, if the products are great, we don't have that. We know what to do So to us, keeping that culture of innovation and giving our engineers time to really just geek out, see what each others are doing, challenge each other. It's really pretty special. And yeah, it deserves the CEO's time. >> And you've got You just had your sales president's club without top performers. On the sales side, this is the technical version. It hasn't been that organic piece of the VM were culture, engineering, leadership. But you also have acquisitions, just acquired it. Nami. Yes, you've had a few other you cloud health big time moves relationship with a ws azure. The cloud foundation stuff. How is lending it together? Because you have all this organic innovation. I see cloud management, networking, security outside suffer to find data center is playing out. As you you guys had predicted. How does the acquisitions fit into the culture and the radio? >> Well, you know, part of it is when we talked to many of the engineers about the acquisitions, we say, Hey, we do radio. They're like, huh? All right, this is well, it's this opportunity for us to see what everybody is doing interactive that level and good engineers are almost always part of the decision with respect acquisitions. So they just take to it like, you know, fish and water, right? They just jump in, right, start interacting with their peers. And it is such a, you know, open, diverse pool that all of sudden ideas air being a bounced off each other, homogenize challenged and, you know, people seeing how they can connect with people. So tow us. Many of the acquisitions just find us to be so beneficial to how they come into the company. And they quite appreciate it, you know, just getting back from sales club hate sales leaders >> and he was pretty good. I like this, you >> know, for many of those acquisitions. But the engineers, this is even better for you >> guys aren't just buying stuff up. You guys are very specific in your acquisitions. Cloud Health again is a great example. Scene. No air watch going with further back. Why? Bit, Nami, What was so big and important about it, Nami to acquire them? >> Well, you know, we saw a couple of things. One is that, you know, it's a company. They definitely had this ability, this respect. We're poor with the open source community, you know, and being able to cross between open source and enterprise credibility. That's exactly where I am, where seas and wants to be able to position ourselves so they fit exactly into that space. This idea of being able to bring enterprise packages is the cool open source applications space. And we already had a multiple set of marketplace efforts internally where we saw that we needed that ecosystem play for activities so they just snap so perfectly into the middle of that and very much hybrid will take cloud, uh, aspects to it. And as we do for every one of our acquisitions and I personally meet with every CEO before we do the deal Are they going to fit our culture? And you know, there aren't that many of our acquisitions where I have people saying no, no I'll i'll be the executive sponsor for this one. No, no, no, I will, I will. I will be No, no, no, please. I'll do this one. And you know, of course, the fact that it's in Seville, Spain, right? You know, I think I think if you it was just driven by vacation plans. But it's >> all well, of course, Erica Cube alumni. And we have a whole cube alumni thing going on here. There's no emanate work we're doing here just good people of nice. And so >> you're planing the Cube visit to civilly explain. It's >> like love, Teo. Of course, we have international presents. One of the things I always quote from you is Besides, that hybrid cloud reference years ago was a quote. You said I think twenty, twelve or twenty thirteen feet which year it wass seems like yesterday. You said if you're not out on that next wave your driftwood, so I gotta ask you here at radio you got You got all this organic stuff. It's kind of the wave's coming. Is this what wave is? Are you seeing the end? We're riding right now, because business is great. Um, you're pumping on all cylinders. You've kind of gone through your ten years that through the early days of and you got CEO and you know it. Everything's normal life now and you're on a good run. What waiver? You're going to be surfing on the business side of all this stuff behind you. What's what? When is this all fit in? >> Well, you know, one of the things that I think is so critical for us now and particularly with the, you know, the, um, war cloud on eight of us. Go now with the relationships with Azure and IBM. Alibaba are four thousand BC PP partners. So that's, you know, really starting to take off our BM or Cloud Foundation on premise. We have a big customer saying Okay, I get it right. Don't look down the stack. Look up. Rely on you guys to be the infrastructure. Bring that together for the hybrid infrastructure is a service. And to me You know, part of what I'm looking for for this from the conference is putting all those pieces together because our customers don't want to be doing it. They want us to do it, but we have to make it so consumable, so compelling that just sort of like the sphere. Was it our beginning? They just sort of say, the M where your hybrid cloud, That's what I want, right? And be ableto operationalize at a scale. And if we get that really working well for customers, the management, the automation, the security operations of that boy. Now we do have the opportunity to ride the Cuban eighties wife right into me. It really is. We have to straddle those two over the next several years, >> so make you know, super nice party stand, >> that embracing that next major trend, >> which is up on top of the stack program ability. >> Yeah. You know, when the aside describe Coburn at ease and containers, it's like Java was twenty years ago. You know, what was the last major software abstraction that the industry agreed upon? Jonah, It's almost exactly twenty years ago, and it defined middleware abstraction for the last twenty years. Containers Cooper, Netease the next middleware abstraction. And we see Cooper. Nate is becoming the next native a P I that thie VM where infrastructure, STD see will support and will deliver. And we're going to make containers and cue bernetti so seamless with regard to the core bm infrastructure that a customer never needs to decide. >> What impact will this have? I mean, I see you've been involved many ways talked about the Pentium in the Intel side of your career, I'll see and and what that enabled in terms of inflection, point and growth and creation of value. Where do you see this Cooper Netease Abstraction. If this is going to be one of those inflection points as you as you point out, how do you envision the impact to the industry? What's gonna happen? >> We see that Cuban eighties layer impacting down as well as impacting up, and that's why we see it. It's so critical to get it right. You know, it becomes the consumption a p I infrastructure, and we've talked about, you know, infrastructure is code or, you know, a P. I ittle dismiss a displace open stack. As an AP, I becomes the middle, where a pea eye of choice, but also that defines the middle where abstraction of choice. So all of your Web spheres, Web logics, Java communities, they're going to get displaced as well as they are re factored into this automated containerized, the scale out world. That's exactly where we're sitting. And that's another piece of the bit Nami acquisition that we just announce because you know, being ableto package containerized, open source applications packages exactly fits into that strategy as well. And if we do those two things, I think VM where is going to be extraordinarily well positioned for decades to come way past me? >> So let's talk about customers. Here we are at radio twenty, nineteen, fifteen years I mentioned you guys, This is a really competitive event. Engineers want to be here. You probably had well over a thousand projects. Submissions. How do customers one benefit from the innovations that are discussed here at radio, but also how to customers influence some of the projects of the exciting things that engineers want to put together? >> Well, one of the things that we really enjoy about the whole BM where R D community is you know engineers are leaving with customers all the time. We push him out into those places, you know, we selectively bring customers in and have them in Iraq. Tear a radio. We have other mechanisms, like flings, right? Yeah. These open source lightweight things that customers could be giving us code. We could be giving them code. We you regularly, you know, bring them into our campus for, you know, their participation and different advance programs. So it really is a very constant, ongoing and somewhat end and dialogue that we're having weather. That's from an early product concept that we might be seeing for the first time here at Radio Teo Act The part, this patient and beta activities before we roll them out broadly. So it really is having them participate in the end, the end roll of innovation. And sometimes Hey, it sounds like a good idea. And it sort of sucked right when we tried to do it. Other times they're like, Oh, wow, some of these things, really. I've taken off and gain legs while beyond what we would have dreamed of. >> What have you seen that this year's event? Project Wise featured project. Why's that really kind of caught your attention, Like you. That's a really good idea. >> Well, I must admit, I just landed last night, So today is my first day at radios. So I just got back from our sales club, as John mentioned earlier. So I think I'm gonna have to take a buy on that question here because I got to go do my homework here. >> We'LL ask the questions. I have attracted talent, engineering, talent That's also the best of the best elite forces. This is a challenge in the streets of retain talent on engineers. Love to work on a hard problem. I gotta ask you what, Some of the hard problems at the end where is trying to tackle that would attract the elite engineering forces to the company. Because again, you're talking about something really big is going on with software. What are some of the big problems? >> Yeah, well, a couple of them that, you know, I'm pretty focused on for our team, and one is we said, you know, we said it's a software defined data center. Right? Going forward. It's the self driving data center. How do we bring so much telemetry? and automation that we truly are running the data center on customers behalf. And if I, you know, build on the Del Technologies World announcement of'em were cloud on Delhi emcee. You know, we're now managing their on premise data center from our cloud. You know what? If we can put more machine learning a I into the middle of that, it's not just that I wantto do it instead of them. I want to do it dramatically better than they ever could write. Using the greatest algorithms telemetry, learning, etcetera that the infrastructure becomes more reliable, right, it becomes higher performance. It becomes increasingly predicted right of its behavior and adjusting to those things. So the self driving data center's pretty high on the list for us. You know this idea then of a true multi cloud operational plane. We're customers. Just say, Here's there's my working. Would you figure out where to run it here? My policies. Here's the work will take care of it for me today. I was running it on this cloud the afternoon I brought it back on promise, because you it >> sounds easy, >> Cassidy. Right? Wow, If you could do that, its scale But then you say, boy, You know, if I move it around, where does the day to reside? Right, You know, have I met my policies and compliance requirements? So this a multi cloud operational plane is a >> big problem that you're attracting talent Is that distract complexity away and making it easy? >> Yeah, right, R, that's what we do. It's hard. I know. You know some >> of the cool things, you know, the are blockchain All right, you know, also breaking through reside. Describe blockchain. It's like the public private key encryption breakthroughs of forty years ago. But they're still very raw, right? Their performances crappy. You know, they don't scale very well. You have all sorts of issues associated with audit ability and repute, ability of those mechanisms. So those are some of the new problems and then also attacking entirely new new segments like NFI, right? Hey, we're going to build a five g network. That's not reliant on hard work, right? >> Well, when you're out of the quiet here, we're going to come to your office, will go deeper, dive on the business and some of the cool tech stuff, >> and we're just coming up on the M world in a couple of months. I think this will be the cubes tenth time there and any little teasers that you could give us about the world twenty nineteen. >> Well, we certainly hope that, you know, we're able to bring a lot of these club messages together right and have sort of, you know, connected all the dots. Att VM world This year's >> state When you heard it here on the Q first, some exciting announcements coming from BM, where in just a few months at being World twenty nineteen. Pak Gil Senior Seo Thank you so much for joining Jon and me at Radio twenty nineteen. As a pleasure. Always thank you so much. We want to thank you for watching for John Ferrier. I'm Lisa Martin. You're watching the Cube from Vienna, where Radio twenty nineteen and San Francisco. Thanks for watching

[Music] everyone welcome to the special cube conversation here to talk about the big announcements big news big concepts and big trends happening Cisco live in Barcelona I'm John for your host of the cube we're here with Fabio Gauri senior director cloud solution marketing at Cisco I've been great to see you things are spending time to me to unpack all the exciting news in Barcelona great stuff thank you thank you for having me John so one of the things that's happening with Cisco we've covered certainly we've been reporting and reporting are other outlets as well and you guys have been transforming and continuing to innovate Cisco has transformed itself into the next level building on your successes we've been covering that and that's been all about the clouds been all about networking going you know software driven you know software powered network operations DevOps the whole thing is now infiltrating into into the new model but it's clear now there's no debate that on-premise data centers on-premise environments of IT service providers the entire old you know computing industry is connecting with the cloud that's been kind of validated and we've been staring at that for a couple of years and now everyone's starting to take action this is a key theme here in Barcelona for you guys and we heard you see you talking about it last year at Cisco live in North America that transition to cloud validated across the voice or Andy chassis the CEO of AWS actually announced an on-premise device hybrid cloud has been validated so public cloud and on-premise and now visibility into what kubernetes is enabled with multi cloud mm-hmm this is the new normal describe that impact in the marketplace what does it mean for customers what do they do what what is it what does this mean when now enterprises are seeing on-premise and cloud coming together absolutely well you know if you think about it you gotta start from the application so if you take a step back right we've been talking about digitization for so long but what does that ultimately mean right people need to build more and more applications to digitize their their business processes their customer experience and so on and so forth ultimately what we're seeing is that this applications are becoming exceptionally distributed right because they go what it makes sense whatever the data is whatever the user is you may have low latency needs you may have actually just you know the right needs to go all the way to the cloud in reality you have a mix of this kind of needs but workloads are distributed and people want to harness this multi cloud world and that's what we're seeing I love these chips it's kind of like people have been living on two sides of the street you know old way new way it's clear that the migration to this new model cloud is the new way and that's been validated again so you've got the old way in new way describe in your mind the old way and the new way from Cisco because if you look at the history of Cisco the dominance and the success I had and recently had an opportunity to be John Chambers at his house and he talked about that that dynamic of how Cisco is so dominant the culture and then going the next level the datacenter you guys have a great success networking edge this is New York or business yeah that's still relevant with the cloud in the new way so talk about what's changed all the way new way Francisco I'll give you a try so fundamentally if you if you if you remember where we're coming from we are coming from an era where we've been seeing infrastructure kind of dictating application requirements through the other way around as well but you had an application you will buy specific hardware networking and everything else including firewalls for a specific infrastructure right so that era actually is not going away is there because it's built an immense amount of legacy that you can not all of a sudden throw away however the new world is a world where you see applications fundamentally going pretty much across multiple type of domains not just to do the center domain anymore but here comes the cloud we have a lot of applications that are going to the edge if you have a branch office right you may want to take your application over there because it's simpler it's it's sometimes it's more economic you don't need to move all the data and still you can have those applications collaborating with your data center with your cloud so what you're now seeing is a completely from world where applications want the infrastructure to be programmable and easy accessible and still extremely secure that's interesting in the old way was you know the you dictate applications you can only do as much as the network and the infrastructure will let you to do yeah and then now as infrastructure becomes more abundant yeah data tsunamis have spent a lot of data's coming in so that's why the storage industry never docking it's always growing storage industries always growing servers as always need for compute but as is more abundance than that it almost as a limitless opportunity for applications so it's not a you know kill the old and bring in the new it's more of a foundational hold as now foundational it is literally next level thing so kubernetes service meshes these programmable policy-based abstractions are showing the way and that's a network construct policy is a network concert so the first time we're seeing is the coming together of the app market with infrastructure absolutely and if you think about it even a step before the apps people have when they build application they have a business intent right let's make an example you take healthcare application right you want in a hospital you want the doctors to be able to access you know the full extent of the data of a customer record for instance you may not want the nurses doing the same thing or for instance you don't want the nurses and the doctors to get access to the financial system of the hospital so this is actually a business intent that that given application will have to respect well the infrastructure can and has to cope with this kind of requirements by delivering the appropriate kind of segmentation right so that you'll be able to ensure that what the application wants to do the infrastructure delivers what has changed in the on premise and cloud world in your mind because to have that kind of coordination and you guys are have announced here it's some great announcements around seamless end-to-end as a theme we're seeing you're seeing hyper convergence anywhere are you seeing application centric infrastructure concepts everywhere but when you actually go into the hood and look at how complex it is it's almost magical in the sense that it's going on its I know it's hard work and people who know networking know it's hard what are the innovations what's enabling that what is the key driver that's making you guys connect an on-premise data complex data center environment that is now edges private networks hybrid private cloud IOT edge enterprise edge campuses the old stuff now with cloud what are the key linchpins well hey I'm gonna take on one of the the words that you use complexity people are looking for the opposite of complexity people are looking for simplicity easy to say more difficult to do but what sits between complexity and and and turning it into a more simple kind of architecture is automation so what you have to have is fundamentally an infrastructure that becomes automated programmable that takes the business intent or the application intent as an input and actually with a closed-loop system fundamentally monitors and gives you the assurance okay the implementation the assurance that actually what you want to do gets delivered by the infrastructure and this has to be literally annalistic and cross-domain kind of architecture what do I mean with cross-domain you're going out of the data center you're going out to the edge you're now going to the cloud this should be seen as a cohesive almost fluid environment where you can actually push your policy your security models right and transform in this highly fragmented the architecture into a set of domains or a multi domain architecture that you can control that you can automate as if it was all yours so to speak even though in the cloud for instance you're going into a domain that you don't control end-to-end so big concept here being discussed in Barcelona is multi domain you just get that explain that a little bit and then take that to where cloud integration comes in because the other thread that we're seeing here is multi cloud yeah so multi domain multi-cloud the same are they different what's the nuance points there yeah again the the critical point is let's think applications applications want to go and it's convenient to go into multiple domains right depending on what you want to do what you want to access to you wanna access clouds innovation from whatever they come from so that's why we have a multi cloud world the data center is still there is critically important you have a lot of applications databases that are still there and now we're seeing the big new shiny object which which is more and more super Robo remote office branch office applications where for instance IDC believes 30% of applications are going to be deployed into this kind of environments so your problem is now connecting all of this together right and because the applications are going anywhere are the designer strategy is that the data center needs to follow the applications and support them wherever they go so it's a data center anywhere kind of kind of strategy the data center has to flex and provide that yes be ready for anything basically from from applications what you're getting at and all the all the plumbing and all the all the intelligence underneath it have to be reactive to what the application wants absolutely a vocation doesn't have to get into the provisioning or any kind of policy because that's the infrastructure as code DevOps the point is that that kind of absolutely the application has an intent right there's also application policy etcetera but it needs to be translated into infrastructure policy where we've been talking about it a minute ago when we were doing the the healthcare kind of example right well we've been super excited in collaborating with you guys on kubernetes we have a special section on silicon angle called the kubernetes special report that's evolving into multi cloud special reports the folks watching Silicon angle comm check out the multi classify syrup or that should be up and yeah by now it was the COO Bernays but ton of interest was seeing startups coming out of the kubernetes you're seeing a cloud native world CN CF and Linux foundation promoting tons of great ecosystem development pulling together those developers want more infrastructure and so that and they wouldn't want to deal with it right so this is where you the cloud strategy has been paying off for you guys you guys have had done deals with Google as your AWS s ap Red Hat among others you guys are well poised for this talk about cloud Center that's a big piece of the story here yeah cloud Center suite a new capabilities talk about the impact of cloud and cloud Center yeah so let me let me let me take us the buck if you want and tell you a little bit more about what we're announcing here right because it's a pretty big announcement I mentioned at the center anywhere what does it mean right well of course our data center portfolio is sent around two big components the first one is networking right particular application center came first structure a CI based on the Nexus 9 K kind of architecture and the second one is our computing portfolio particularly you know the hyper-converged infrastructure cisco hyper flex that's of course you know an extremely efficient way of condensing you know what you need to make it very flexible in your application implementation where we have two major news here right in this two areas and the third is absolutely what you were asking for which is Cloud Center so with a CI and it's interesting because they're going into two if you want different directions when it comes to the small T cloud domain AC I was already visualized in the previous releases sorry application centric infrastructure is fundamentally cisco in ten base networking for the data center okay it gives you program ability of the infrastructure it gives you segmentation gives you security and a high degree of automation capabilities exactly okay continue and so in the previous in the previous if you want developments releases of ACI what we've been doing was to aggressively visualize a CI right so that you will have constructs like virtual poles and virtual leaves to rescale your data center implementation to the edge now where we're going with this new announcement is exactly on the other side which is we're standing ACI to the cloud to usher in AWS so that the construct that you have typically on Prem under your control such as tenants EP G's and things of this nature will be translated into the equivalent construct in AWS whether it's VP C's or security groups and the likes the two things end up fundamentally corresponding so now we have one construct that extends from the edge to the data center to the cloud that's a pretty big deal and what does that mean to the customer just give an example it means a high degree of automation security and control on the resources right so that you can impose one policy it propagates all across the board one way of monitoring you know the data center flows and discovering for instance if you have if you have any kind of security threat monitoring application performance thanks to the inter so this fully checks this hybrid cloud box this ship I say yes is one a hybrid deployment this checks the box saying I can operate and say whatever cloud and on-premise in the datacenter with a CI both places without changing any code is it seamless what's the what's that well with a CI is gonna come with a specific software this is all software that's that's the beauty of it right it's it's in line with the transformation the company that you were referring to it's all software and it goes into AWS and uses of course all the api's to connect 2d to the AWS resources that you were you're you're acquiring from AWS right so that's one big bucket of news the second bucket o news is hyper flex that's actually heading to the edge because what we're seeing is more and more applications that have components of the application itself or even entire applications that are going into remote office branch offices and the reason are many right it could be cost reason it could be did a gravity reason it could be just low latency reason right we all know that you know to go back and forth from the cloud that's not always convenient as well as if you lose the connectivity your branch is dead right so you have to you need to have business continue it in all of this and so it doesn't mean that you don't want the cloud you want a collaboration across this again fluid sort of infrastructure so I purflex come with a very efficient kind of kind of fun factor over there now it's either flex edge and its control Emilia this is that because you have many remote offices and branch offices is controlled from the cloud with cisco inter side which is of course our console and cloud system to manage all these hand points no just hyper flex but also UCS so when you think of this now you understand what do we mean with the dissenter anywhere because we're taking both our networking and our computing platforms anywhere the application needs them right and the third component which actually is where your questions started from is application lifecycle management in this kind of infrastructure becomes even more of a problem right it is extremely complicated now to have applications in multiple clouds and then in your data center and to the in India JH and in you know all these different kind of places so what we've done with cloud center which is our flagship club management and an orchestration system is two big things first we have expanded the functionalities by adding new modules especially the cause optimizer the helps operations team at Center suite now it's the cloud center suite and I'll explain you in a moment why we remove the branding slightly from cloud center to cloud center suite because we highly modularize the software and and make it and made it really much more easy to consume I'll go there in a moment but going back to what is new first of all is cost optimizer right that's that's brand new and it helps Operations team to right-size the workload to pick up the the best instances in the cloud are you using to actually minimize your investment or reach your your goal of performance and cost right that's one big thing the second one is that we're adding a very smart so called action Orchestrator which is a workflow manager that helps you automate in there tear connection of your cloud management system to all the other systems right some of these plugins and integrations come outer-box particularly with the higher level tiers of licensing such as with service now for instance or we give you already built-in integration with cisco inter side or UCS director which is the infrastructure manager for Cisco infrastructure but you can use the kind of platform and module to build your own integrations with the other systems that's very important because the cloud management system doesn't exist in isolation right it needs to integrate with all the other IT management solution that you have on Prem and that's one big thing the second big thing as you said before when you said about the suite is the fact that because we have written all of this new software and cuber Nerys right this is highly scalable highly portable so now we can give you different tiers of licenses you can start very small as small as around $50,000 right for subscription service and you can actually bite subscription on pram or that's big news you can buy Nate software-as-a-service so cloud center is now Asaf offering yes available when it's gonna be so all the subscription use the new software is going to be available literally a next month in a few days for now right in February and the SAS version is gonna be available in North America in March so right away for Europe of course due to the GDP our implementation our customers will have to wait until the summer but it's pretty immediate and you hear a bit of an extra work done yeah okay so bottom line me on the cloud Center suite what is the the purpose is it to be the high level management suite how is it connecting into other systems so if I have all these different management tools out there when Cisco and others is it connecting into am i connecting up and you just explain quickly you know the purpose of it yeah works so really the goal of Cloud Center is to do a salute three things the first one is a he wants to simplify cloud management and how it does it right one of the key patents that we acquire together we clicker right click a cloud center when we brought them in more than two years ago was the really unique way that they have to model applications right the way that people are managing cloud management and an organization is still extremely manual I mean many customers are still kind of doing scripting we have cases of customers that are scripting like 1200 lines of codes just to upload a piece of software onto the cloud we think the approach should be different right the approach should be you should be able to model that application your application model wants and then thanks to cloud API so we have 16 different API into a cloud integrations with AWS our Google you name it right I BM and the likes we realize of course on parameter private cloud once you model your application you can use any of these other clouds as a target for implementation okay that allows you to have a very very effective cloud management solution because don't risk to make mistakes you leave the tool so you said it's written in kubernetes absolutely we scraped all this now we program all this in Cuban Eddie's so you may tell us hey you're walking the talk absolutely doing that and that's very in that sow actually we can do it on Prem in a Cuban IT infrastructure by the way if you need one we have the Cisco cloud center platform a hyper flex underneath to do it or you can buy from the cloud because we're uploading a little dot to the cloud you guys have done a good job at kubernetes just as a side note you guys done the work it's doing the cloud integrations and I think wasn't she about kubernetes unlike other trends I've seen in some of these open-source projects some hype comes up and then it kind of drops off or it gets hyped up and it's too hard to roll out or use it cost too much and so people actually using kubernetes for not just standing it up they're actually pulling it for a purpose so congratulations on that I think it's a real good thank you for thank you know we're a big believer in to this so simplifying really multiplayer management is one big thing reducing time to value is another big thing because with the integrations and the ability you know to integrate with the other tools you can put it in production very very quickly and then it's incredibly easy to consume you can start small and grow up so I did a little checklist here I want to just run this by you and then I'm going to ask you a question around what all this means to your to your customer base because I'm sure the world's changing we've done a lot of kind of you know surveys and interaction with a lot of network guys to kind of spiel out how the markets going get your reaction so interesting thing you guys have a this builder model very similar to Amazon you know toolkits for cloud builders you guys are really investing heavily and it's a security you got stealthWatch tetration analytics you've got app dynamics and tetration as well datacenter hyper flex UCS Nexus check cloud apps WebEx I know what else is in there there's also cloud apps cloud native apps which you're connecting into management cloud center container platform and IOT kinetic and networking the edge Meraki cloud service route or bunch of other things so you guys are building quite the portfolio on here right so given that you guys have that security to network and kind of end-to-end with the application centric infrastructure are kind of expanding and intent based networking combined cloud seems to be kind of the end-to-end is the theme it really is it's it's again end to end and across multiple domains because that's the thing that doesn't come across with end to end is the fact that you need to cross different domains that are exceptionally different from from each other and so having consistent policies and a single security model having one mean of networking and securing all this in a containerized world which which is where we're progressively going that's everything and you know it's not me saying it but if you look at the CN CF surveys they'll tell you the securing and working containers is one of the toughest things so I got to ask you that the tough question totally makes sense you got my buy-in on it I totally believed in the vision making it work okay making it smart and making it at scale are the three kind of things I'm looking at give us your take on how you guys are looking at those three kind of you know checkpoints you got to get this up and running so one make it work you know end-to-end mobile domains yeah make it intelligent that's data smarter you know automation kicks in and I'll see scaling it up but you know with all the checkbox security everything else so take us through the strategy yeah and what you guys are thinking there and and the impact with that in mind so the person on the other side your customer the buyer and customer Sisko to manage it that's that's a big sea change yeah and the benefits are pretty lucrative on the other side if you can pull this up yeah yeah upon three big aspects so first of all we mean we've been talking about architectures but architectures doesn't mean that you shouldn't have Best of Breed products right it starts from there those are the atomic components of any strategy right you gotta have best of the products now these products need to integrate into an architecture that solves true business problems such as the intent base you know architecture that we've been talking about the third aspect is actually how you help customers to be successful and I will love to call out our partner strategy right which for I would say for as long as 30 years has been Cisco's critical differentiator and I think this is an enormous asset especially when you look at the number one problem in IT out there which is not kubernetes and it's no cloud is actually lack of talent people don't have the skillset and talents so relying on an ecosystem that helps you expanding what you need because you don't have it inside its fundamental importance on you guys absolutely but this is a critical asset and you know we're doing a lot of investments also on the customer experience side of the house with our leader Maria Martinez the staking actually this customer experience so approach to the next level more and more it's about these architectures also being cloud a touch so you heard me talking about inter-site it doesn't come by chance right the more you can rely on on this kind of architectures the more you can harvest analytics you can do cross correlation across multiple networks and domains and figure out what is going wrong that's something that providers of pinpoint products just cannot even dream of delivering as final question for first of all thanks for spending the time and chatting and he was going to be rolling out a lot of content we're gonna be following what's going on with on your end to really like Cisco's vibe you guys are very transparent and collaborating appreciate being there working with you guys final question if someone's watching this I'm a Cisco customer you know we've been talking about the network I which I've talked to a couple you know and surveying some some enterprises where you know the network's they've done the heavy lifting that's been part of the computing industry you know networking compute they've been running the show and really have moved the needle campus networking the list goes on and on but now that foundation set we're going to a whole nother level it's almost like a sea change on the personality side persona of the people who've built it out and now have to build the next generation yeah and my relevant am I gonna be the mainframe guy am I gonna be leading the charge or may be left behind there's a lot of cognitive dissidence around decisions so that go here should I go there architectures so there's a lot of psychology and also decision-making that's gonna be determined by your core audience mm-hmm that person out there is your target audience they're thinking about these things because they want to do well and they don't wanna be left behind what do you say to that audience about Cisco now the opportunity for them personally their ability to one grow their skill gaps or have an impact to being a key change agent for this next generation what do you say that that person out there about the Cisco and the opportunity for them it's it's a very big question I would split a question in two parts first of all is what is your advice to IT professionals right how can they not just survive but thrive and be the heroes of this this transition and it's pretty simple actually you have to understand what your business wants we've been talking about how do you close this gap between of infrastructure and application but in other terms is covering the gap between what you do and what the business wants you've got to understand that right so that's number one second part of the question is okay considering this is cisco the right partner for me and the answer of course from cisco standpoint is approximately yes because our entire company strategy is wrapped around this concept of intent-based architecture where our goal is to map the business intent into the infrastructure underneath and that's exactly your core business mr. IT professional right so I see this as a as a marriage in heaven right in terms of where I see really the talent need for IT going right in IT professionals and where the company is going right if we if we're right and I think we are this is gonna be a great ride and not a threatening one I think everything's lining up you're getting clear visibility into what the role of cloud is the scale PC and personal links are just undeniable and that the role of technologists now are super important there's no jobs really going away they're shifting this is this is the reality this is kind of what the exciting opportunity it is but but again it's about bringing IT very close to the business in the end I believe it's just it's just gonna be continuity between what we call today line of business and IT it's just a company that wants to win in the marketplace right wants to get faster efficient usual kind of you know terminology but you know does this gap is gonna go away Fabio thank you for taking the time to share this conversation I'm John furry this is a cube conversation here at Barcelona live go live Europe back to the cube coverage go to the cube dotnet to check out all the live coverage and cube interviews in Barcelona I'm here with Fabio Korey senior director cloud solutions marking Cisco I'm John for the cube thanks for watching [Music] you

live from Stanford University in Palo Alto California it's the cube covering women in data science conference 2018 brought to you by Stanford welcome to the cube we are alive at Stanford University I'm Lisa Martin and we are at the 3rd annual women in data science conference or woods whiz if you're not familiar is a one-day technical conference that has keynote speakers technical vision talks as well as a career panel and we are fortunate to have guests from all three today it's also an environment it's really a movement that's aimed at inspiring and educating data scientists globally and supporting women in the field this event is remarkable in its third year they are expecting to reach sit down for this 100,000 people today we were here at Stanford this is the main event in person but there's over 150 plus regional events around the globe in 50 plus countries and I think those numbers will shift up during the day and I'll be sure to brief you on that we're excited to be joined by one of the speakers featured on mainstage this morning not only a cube alum not returning to us but also the first ever female president of Harvey Mudd College dr. Maria Klawe a maria welcome back to the cube thank you it's great to be here it's so exciting to have you here I love you representing with your t-shirt there I mentioned you are the first-ever female president of Harvey Mudd you've been in this role for about 12 years and you've made some pretty remarkable changes there supporting women in technology you gave some stats this morning in your talk a few minutes ago share with us what you've done to improve the percentages of females in faculty positions as well as in this student body well the first thing I should say is as president I do nothing nothing it's like a good job the whole thing that makes it work at Harvey Mudd is we are community that's committed to diversity and inclusion and so everything we do we try to figure out ways that we will attract people who are underrepresented so that's women in areas like computer science and engineering physics it's people of color in all areas of science and engineering and it's also LGTB q+ i mean it's you know it's it's muslims it's it's just like all kinds of things and our whole goal is to show that it doesn't matter what race you are doesn't matter what gender or anything else if you bring hard work and persistence and curiosity you can succeed i love that especially the curiosity part one of the things that you mentioned this morning was that for people don't worry about the things that you you might think you're not good at i thought that was a very important message as well as something that I heard you say previously on the cube as well and that is the best time that you found to reach women young women and to get them interested in stem as even a field of study is the first semester in college and I should with you off camera that was when I found stem in biology tell me a little bit more about that and how what are some of the key elements that you find about that time in a university career that are so I guess right for inspire inspiration so I think the thing is that when you're starting in college if somebody can introduce you to something you find fun engaging and if you can really discover that you can solve major issues in the world by using these ideas these concepts the skills you're probably going to stay in that and graduate in that field whereas if somebody does that to when you're in middle school there's still lots of time to get put off and so our whole idea is that we emphasize creativity teamwork and problem-solving and we do that whether it's in math or an engineering or computer science or biology we just in all of our fields and when we get young women and young men excited about these possibilities they stick with it and I love that you mentioned the word fun and curiosity I can remember exactly where I was and bio 101 and I was suddenly I'd like to biology but never occurred to me that I would ever have the ability to study it and it was a teacher that showed me this is fun and also and I think you probably do this too showed that you believe in someone you've got talent here and I think that that inspiration coming from a mentor whether you know it's a mentor or not is a key element there that is one that I hope all of the the viewers today and the women that are participating in which have the chance to find so one of the things every single one of us can do in our lives is encourage others and you know it's amazing how much impact you can have I met somebody who's now a faculty person at Stanford she did her PhD in mechanical engineering her name is Allison Marsden I hadn't seen her for I don't know probably almost 12 years and she said she came up to me and she said I met you just as I was finishing my PhD and you gave me a much-needed pep talk and you know that is so easy to do believing in people encouraging them and it makes so much difference it does I love that so wins is as I mentioned in the third annual and the growth that they have seen is unbelievable I've not seen anything quite like it in in tech in terms of events it's aimed at inspiring not just women and data science but but data science in general what is it about wizz that attracted you and what are some of the key things that you shared this morning in your opening remarks well so the thing that attracts me about weeds is the following data science is growing exponentially in terms of the job opportunities in terms of the impact on the world and what I love about withes is that they had the insight this flash of genius I think that they would do a conference where all the speakers would be women and just that they would show that there are women all over the world who are contributing to data science who are loving it who are being successful and it's it's the crazy thing because in some ways it's really easy to do but nobody had done it right and it's so clear that there's a need for this when you think about all of the different locations around the world that are are doing a width version in Nigeria in Mumbai in London in you know just all across the world there are people doing this yeah so the things I shared are number one oh my goodness this is a great time to get into data science it's just there's so many opportunities in terms of career opportunities but there's so many opportunities to make a difference in the world and that's really important number two I shared that it's you never too old to learn math and CS and you know my example is my younger sister who's 63 and who's learning math and computer science at the northern Alberta Institute of Technology Nate all the other students are 18 to 24 she suffers from fibromyalgia she's walked with a walker she's quite disabled she's getting A's and a-pluses it's so cool and you know I think for every single person in the world there's an opportunity to learn something new and the most important thing is hard work and perseverance that it's so much more important than absolutely anything else I agree with that so much it's it's such an inspiring time but I think that you said there was clearly a demand for this what Wits has done in such a short time period demonstrates massive demand the stats that I was reading the last couple of days that show that women with stem degrees only 26% of them are actually working in STEM fields that's very low and and even can start from things like how how companies are recruiting talent and the messages that they're sending may be the right ones maybe not so much so I have a great example for you about companies recruiting talent so about three years ago I was no actually almost four years ago now I was talking in a conference called HR 50 and it's a conference that's aimed at the chief human resource officers of 50 multinationals and my talk I was talking for 25 minutes on how to recruit and retain women in tech careers and afterwards the chief HR officer from Accenture came up to me and she said you know we hire 17,000 software engineers a year Justin India 17,000 and she said we've been coming in at 30 percent female and I want to get that up to 45 she said you told me some really good things I could use she she said you told me how to change the way we advertise jobs change the way we interview for jobs four months later her name is Ellen Chowk Ellen comes up to me at another conference this has happens to be the most powerful women's summit that's run by Fortune magazine every year and she comes up and she says Maria I implemented different job descriptions we changed the way we interview and I also we started actually recruiting at Women's College engineering colleges in India as well as co-ed once she said we came in at 42% Wow from 30 to 42 just making those changes crying I went Ellen you owe me you're joining my more my board and she did right and you know they have Accenture has now set a goal of being at 50/50 in technical roles by 2025 Wow they even continued to come in all around the world they're coming in over 40% and then they've started really looking at how many women are being promoted to partners and they've moved that number up to 30% in the most recent year so you know it's a such a great example of a company that just decided we're gonna think about how we advertise we're going to think about how we interview we're gonna think about how we do promotions and we're going to make it equitable and from a marketing perspective those aren't massive massive changes so whether it expects quite simple exactly yeah these are so the thing I think about so when I look at what's happening at Harvey Mudd and how we've gotten more women into computer science engineering physics into every discipline it's really all about encouragement and support it's about believing in people it's about having faculty who when they start teaching a class the perhaps is technically very rigorous they might say this is a really challenging course every student in this course who works hard is going to succeed it's setting that expectation that everyone can succeed it's so important I think back to physics and college and how the baseline was probably 60% in terms of of grades scoring and you went in with intimidation I don't know if I can do this and it sounds like again a such a simple yet revolutionary approach that you're taking let's make things simple let's be supportive and encouraging yet hopefully these people will get enough confidence that they'll be able to sustain that even within themselves as they graduate and go into careers whether they stay in academia or go in industry and I know you've got great experiences in both I have I so I've been very lucky and I've been able to work both in academia and in industry I will say so I worked for IBM Research for eight years early in my career and you know I tribute a lot of my success as a leader since then to the kind of professional development that I got as a manager at IBM Research and you know what I think is that I there's not that much difference between creating a great learning environment and a great work environment and one of the interesting results that came out of a study at Google sometime in the last few months is they looked at what made senior engineering managers successful and the least important thing was their knowledge of engineering of course they all have good knowledge of engineering but it was empathy ability to mentor communication skills ability to encourage all of these kinds of things that we think of as quote unquote soft skills but to actually change the world and and on those sasuke's you know we hear a lot about the hard skills if we're thinking about data scientists from a role perspective statistical analysis etcetera but those soft skills empathy and also the ability to kind of bring in different perspectives for analyzing data can really have a major impact on every sector and socially in the world today and that's why we need women and people of color and people who are not well represented in these fields because data science is changing everything in the world absolutely is and if we want those changes to be for the better we really need diverse perspectives and experiences influencing things that get made because you know algorithms are not algorithms can be hostile and negative as well as positive and you know good for the world and you need people who actually will raise the questions about the ethics of algorithms and how it gets used there's a great book about how math can be used for the bad of humanity as well as the good of humanity and until we get enough people with different perspectives into these roles nobody's going to be asking those questions right right well I think with the momentum that we're feeling in this movement today and it sounds like what you're being able to influence greatly at Mudd for the last twelve years plus there is there are our foundations that are being put in place with not just on the education perspective but on the personal perspective and in inspiring the next generation giving them helping them I should say achieve the confidence that they need to sustain them throughout their career summary I thank you so much for finding the time to join us this morning on the cube it's great to have you back and we can't wait to talk to you next year and hear what great things do you influence and well next twelve months well it's wonderful to have a chance to talk with you as well thank you so much excellent you've been watching the cube we're live at Stanford University for the third annual women in data science wins conference join the conversation hashtag wins 2018 I'm Lisa Martin stick around I'll be right back with my next guest after a short break