(upbeat music) >> Hey, everyone, welcome to theCube's special program series Women of the Cloud brought to you by AWS. I'm your host, Lisa Martin. I'm very pleased to welcome back one of our alumni Adrianna Bustamante joins me, the VP of Global Alliances at Rackspace Technology. Adrianna, it's great to see you. Thank you so much for joining me today. >> Lisa, thank you so much for having me again. I love this. >> Yeah, me too. Tell me a little bit about you, a little bit about Rackspace Technology, as well as the role that you currently have. >> Sure, so again, I'm Adrianna Bustamante. I look after our global alliances within Rackspace, specifically looking after some of our strategic partners. I've been with Rackspace for a little over 16 years now, working with partners in some form or fashion. Rackspace Technology, we are the multicloud solution experts. We really work with our clients to drive business outcomes and transformations in this multicloud world. And our mission is to embrace technology, empower our customers, and deliver the future. And I get to have the fun pleasure of building and curating and cultivating partnership relationships. So very much our partnerships are important to our success. We are privileged to be able to work with AWS along with other partners across the industry to help do more, and bring more value to clients. >> So you've been with Rackspace Technology for a while. Tell me a little bit about recommendations. Any tactical recommendations that you have for other women, maybe even men who are looking to grow their careers in tech maybe they're wanting to get into tech. What are some of the things that you've learned along the way that you highly recommend? >> Yeah, no, great, great question. I've had the fortune of being at Rackspace now for a number of years, and it's always 'cause I've been able to create my own opportunities and work. And so that really falls in line to some of the recommendations that I hold dear to my heart. And number one is really to stay curious and learn, from reading articles, to staying close, and asking questions from your colleagues. You know, I know just like at AWS and at Rackspace, there are some very talented people across all areas of the business, and they are the best to learn from. You know, I also am a firm believer in developing and expanding that network 'cause that helps you bring and build out your reach and helps you continue to learn in different areas outside the company. I think from raising your hand, leaning in, don't be afraid to speak up. Especially as we think about, you know, women of the cloud which is part of what the theme of this session is. And I think about, you know, how much I love to see women elevated within roles inside of Rackspace and out, you know. It is about raising your hand, getting uncomfortable in speaking up if you're, if you are a bit shy or timid. If there's an area that you are interested in and passionate about, go learn and drive. Because there's opportunities to create new roles for yourself, new ways to bring value into the organization. And then you become memorable for, you know, that, you know this person was known for helping solve this problem. It's been a good fortune. And within our company culture of any Racker, the front lines know how to solve most problems just as much as the top executives. >> Yeah, I love you saying stay curious. I think curiosity is probably one of the best things that people can have. It's, to your point of, I like to call it getting comfortably uncomfortable. Raise your hand, ask a question. I always think, if you're in a meeting, and maybe you tune out or there's something that you don't understand, ask a question. 'Cause I guarantee there's five other people in that room that have the same question, but they're not curious enough or hungry enough to ask the question to learn more. So I think those are such great recommendations that you have provided that I think you probably would tell your younger self stay curious, ask questions. >> Yes, for sure. I also am so big, at least for me personally, context is so important for me. If I understand context, then I'm really able to figure out where can I drive the most value for me personally. And then that goes into leading my teams. And so to me, the only way you get the context is if you're learning or asking the questions if you don't understand. 'Cause it really helps you understand the holistic business. >> A hundred percent. That context is everything. But a lot of people are just a little bit timid sometimes and don't want to be the one to raise their hand in a room or online these days. And I think it's such a great skill that anybody can benefit from. I'd love to know some of your other skills. Some examples of specific success stories where in your current role, where you've really helped organizations solve problems related to the cloud. >> Yes, so, you know, and I think about ultimately we're looking to see and always looking to see how we can help transform our clients' businesses. And often the underlying root of that is through technology solutions. And so, you know, we've helped clients who are mostly, you know, legacy data center based clients that have built large infrastructure components and environments, and they want to learn and lean into the cloud. And they're not really sure how to do that. They probably may have a leader that's told them that they need to do this. Everybody's at a different level of journey. And so, you know, specifically, and especially in partnership with some of our hyperscaler partners just at like AWS is, you know, we can help customers understand what that journey needs to look like. How to successfully move, let's say if they're a large VMware shop today they already have a little bit of cloud native. You know, together through our ecosystem of relationships, we've helped customers not only be able to build and maintain part of their data center footprint that's not ready yet to transform, but move some of this into a facility that is within our data centers to get out of that huge kind of CapEx heavy workload type environment. And then, and especially with AWS, and the partnership that they have along with Rackspace, with VMware, we leverage BMC on AWS solutions. And then we can help them fully embrace that cloud native. And from a Rackspace perspective we are providing those services and expertise across all levels in a single pane of glass. So you can manage from your more traditional workloads to embracing more of a cloud native approach. >> And it's all about helping clients drive business outcomes as you said. Every organization these days, I always like to think, whether it's my grocery store retailer or bank has to be a data driven company. But it has to leverage obviously the cloud. But there's so many options. It's quite nebulous, no pun intended, maybe pun intended. So, but it's all about helping clients drive those business outcomes. I imagine it's quite fulfilling for you to be able to help different types of organizations really maximize their use of technology, their understanding of technology, to really build bridges, deliver the products and services that everybody's expecting these days. >> Yes. No and I think what I, again, it's what I love about being in partnerships because those relationships become fundamental in helping remove those complexities for the clients. And so the more that we as Rackspace are able to connect and deepen these relationships it just becomes less decision making, less things that the client ultimately has to think about. So nothing gives me more joy than being able to help solve the customer's problems. And then in turn we're doing that through our partnership relationships. So we're bringing everybody together to ultimately provide a better outcome for the client. >> Yeah. And as you said, those relationships are foundational to everything and ultimately the outcomes that the end customer is able to deliver to these demanding, whether it's consumer or business or whatnot. A lot of challenges that organizations have today. But it sounds like the relationship cultivating that you're helping lead is really critical in those organizations being able to embrace technology, utilize it in ways that allow them to get products and services to market as fast as the consumer demands. I'd love to get your perspective as a female in technology. We talk a lot about diversity, inclusion, equity. We can talk about it all day long, but there's still some challenges there. What are some of the challenges that you see that are still persistent with respect to diversity and tech today? And maybe some of your recommendations to eradicate some of those? >> No, sure. So, you know, it starts really early. It starts almost in education and making sure that women, and a diverse set of applicants are taking certain, studying certain disciplines. And then I think about it from a recruiting and hiring perspective. Are organizations doing enough to expand their reach? You know, we were actually talking- I have the good fortune of being the executive sponsor of our resource group within Rackspace. It's called Power, which is the professional organization of women's empowerment at Rackspace. And we were talking just I think last week on, we need to make sure we're going where the women are to make sure we are letting them know about Rackspace, the benefits about Rackspace. And it ultimately, in turn that helps build more recruiting into the talent pool. More people are raising their hand and interviewing and hiring. I think talent in general as we're seeing right now, is so hard to come by, and so even more important to retain. And the more diverse pools that we have of Rackers, it's just bringing different perspectives, and Rackers are what we call Rackspace employees. It's bringing those Rackers together to help solve the bigger problems. Because you're able to do more with a diverse set of outlook. And I think, you know, as a woman, I want to have that equitable seat at the table. And so ultimately when I think about myself from a leadership perspective, am I making sure that all of those opportunities are available for the women that come along behind me? And how am I elevating other women within our organization from a day-to-day so they have that spotlight. So, you know, fundamentally, organizations need to focus on how to expand that reach to bring that diverse set of applicants and voices. And then you need strong leaders at every level to be advocates and sponsors to make sure that this is an important topic and top of mind in all organizations. So you can ultimately provide an equitable approach. >> Yeah, I love that. I agree a hundred percent. You know, it's so important to start at the education front, but also to be able to have just the thought diversity alone in organizations. I've seen many studies that show having females in executive positions are, companies that do that, are more profitable. There's a lot of data out there that demonstrates that there are huge advantages to any type of organization to really invest in diversity. But to your point, it's not just about attracting, it's about retaining the talent as well. I mean that, that is critical for every business. >> Yes. No absolutely. You know, more and more we're starting to see that soft benefits are becoming more important as we think about a younger workforce coming in. And when I think about soft benefits, it's more around our employee resource groups. What our benefits look like for our females within our healthcare, within the insurance plans? What type of time off and maternity benefits are we extending? What does that work-life balance look like in a hybrid world or a virtual world? Those questions become, I mean, when I remember years ago no one would even think about asking those questions. And now we see, not only those questions coming up more regularly, but we are trying to be more intentional within our organization. To be proactive about that messaging so we can help show and demonstrate that we are an inclusive community. And that there's support for women to be successful within Rackspace. You know, we have mentoring programs that we do that are you know, that we really try to highlight and promote for our female community. And then also for our broader community. We look at building different circles that women can come together in a space that they feel comfortable to ask questions. To figure out how do they excel and advance in their career. Those become very attractive for getting that talent that we want. >> Absolutely. And you just brought up such a great point, Adrianna and that's intention. Programs like what you're describing that the Rackers have opportunity to access, is that there's intention in all of this. Which is so critical for diversity programs to be successful. To attract the right talent, to retain the right talent. It's like a flywheel, I think it's all, it's all linked together. But I'd love to know what you see that's next in cloud. How do you see your role evolving in the industry? We talked about the great relationship building that you're doing. What do you see as next in cloud? >> No, sure. Again, 'cause I helplessly can't be biased. It is all about to me that that partner ecosystem. It is how we can build strong relationships that help minimize the complexities for the clients. You know, now the pace for innovation and competitive edge is faster than it was than we saw 24 months ago. You know, we saw COVID advance lots of different areas of the business, but really it forced a lot of companies to transform. And this is where I think there's a unique opportunity to really look at what a partner ecosystem looks like. You know, who are the right partners that organizations like AWS, like Rackspace should be working with. 'Cause oftentimes the partners that were our partners and key partners, maybe three to five years ago, maybe aren't going to be as relevant in that same ecosystem in the next five years. So constantly making sure that we have the right ecosystem in place, and the right relationships to help ultimately drive better outcomes for the clients. >> And that's like we said several times already during this interview. It's all about the outcomes for clients. You mentioned COVID, you know, there's been- I call 'em COVID catalysts. A lot of transformation, forcing function. There's definitely been some silver linings, but I'd love to get your perspective if we go back like the last five years. Some of the biggest changes that you've seen in the tech workforce, in innovation, in the last, you know, three to five years that really excite you. >> Yeah, so I think we all had to learn to be virtual by default. And so I think we're just coming out. People are excited to be in person again. You know, when we have different events, whether they be with internal Rackers or with partners or clients, like everyone's excited to to see each other again. But you're still seeing this mix of, we need to be hybrid by default, which I know wasn't in everybody's DNA from a technology perspective. And I think that's enabling more virtual teams, more matrixed type of teams, where you're bringing together different expertise across the organization to move at a faster pace. You know, we talk about, you know, we talk about COVID which led to that great resignation where you saw many people changing their jobs. You know, we saw women not only within Rackspace, but even outside, like really, you know, take a pause and really start thinking about what's important to them in that returning to work. And so I just think all of this has really, as you mentioned, Lisa, of forcing function on being intentional to create the right environments that are building a place that we can retain that level of skill and expertise. And I think that's just going to become something that's more increasingly important with every year and profession choice. >> I agree. It's going to be building upon, like it's that flywheel that I'm talking about. That of successes, of promoting women, of making sure that there's plenty of opportunity. Encouraging women, to your point, to be curious raise your hand, ask the question. There's so much value, it's invaluable for organizations to really have diversity throughout their organization. You did a great job of explaining. Even in the benefits framework. So, I so appreciate you being on theCUBE. Adrianna, it's great to see you again. Thank you for sharing your story, the successes that you've had as a Racker in cloud, and some of the things that you recommend to the next generation. We really appreciate your time. >> No, thank you. If I can walk into more rooms where there is more women at the table and on the calls, I am a happier individual. So I love any opportunity to really see how we can continue to make more space in the rooms for women that are just overly talented and deserve to be there. >> I am with you on that. Again, thank you so much. Great to see you and we'll see you again soon. >> Thank you, Lisa. Take care. Have a good afternoon. >> Thank you. We want to thank you for watching theCube's special program series Women of the Cloud, brought to you by AWS. I'm Lisa Martin, thanks for watching. (upbeat music)

(upbeat music) >> Hello, friends, and welcome to another edition of this special program series from theCUBE highlighting the brilliant women of the cloud. I am absolutely thrilled to be joined today by a transformative visionary, accelerating the route to market for many of North Americans' top businesses. Please welcome Tia Wiggins of AWS. Tia, thank you so much for being here. >> Hello. Hello everyone. Thank you for having me. >> I know there's a lot that we're going to talk about tech and innovation and the very exciting parts of your role, both at AWS as well as on the philanthropy side. Excuse me. But before we get there, I want to know how you got to where you're sitting right now. >> Yes, yes. Well, I'm proud to say my entire family is STEM born and bred. You know, I think I have a more traditional American upbringing of parents that did not have college degrees, but they've always had us in programs. So, you know, like I say, proud today. I have two sisters who are doctors and I was on a path to be a pharmacist. And, you know, I had got sponsored by a leader that took me on through the business journey and allowed me to connect the STEM side of my life to helping businesses grow. I'm also, I'm proud to share that I'm a philanthropist. I do believe in building communities and removing barriers to help people grow. Also, you know, as a child of two military parents, you know, my mother leaned on programs, right? I went through local hospital programs that taught me about medicine, that taught me about math, school that taught me about physics, right? That were free and funded, that allowed me to, you know, explore and get exposure. So, with that, you know, I've always had a knack to figure out how do I, in my own capacity, not being a billionaire, not being, you know, a trust fund child, but how do I create resourcing to help others come along on this pathway, leveraging and bringing bridging the two of STEM and community together. So, yeah, that's a little bit about my background. >> Yeah, I mean, it seems like it's a lifelong commitment not just a career long commitment to the industry and you're very clearly a curious person. You mentioned the role that resources and community have played in your journey. How would you recommend others who may be interested in a similar career path or exploring technology and business take actionable steps to do some of the similar things to you've done? >> Absolutely. So, as I believe that I have everyone watching this from from early career before actually in college. So I would tell for the entry level for you to focus on first finding programs, you know, AWS we have programs that help you come into the cloud computing. We will help you get your cloud certification. We have great internship programs but then also too, you know, there's diverse programs like National Society of Black Engineers, Society of Women Engineers, Society of Hispanic Engineers. There's so many programs, right, that can help you gain those actual training will actually provide you a job and exposure so they can help you actually figure out what the path you want to take when it comes to STEM. What I would share for mid-level something that I do personally for myself is, after you're in the industry, is to write a vision. So my superpowers or is transformation and a vision and every year I start off with like a love letter to myself and it includes something related to my career; a bold move. And as I get crisp on to saying something dangerous that I want to go do, I share that with my sponsors. I share that with my network, what I call my tribe, and those individuals help me gain the experiences that actually make the moves to get there, right? And it might not be exact, right? I might not actually hit that move that year. But if I look backwards, I actually looked I actually took some of the steps that were needed and essential for me to thrive when I actually get there. So definitely I would say, you know, one, in terms of exposure with programs. Two, for if you're actually in your career, write your vision, right? Get real crisp what you want to go do about it and then share it with your team. And then the last point that I think is essential that we don't really talk about a lot is feedback, right? It sounds it's easy, but feedback is communication and how you perceive yourself is not how others always perceive you, right? And I do believe in having pride. I do believe you need a certain level of ego for yourself, right, to thrive. However, there is nuggets in there that can help you accelerate on your journey, right? So I take time and I actually go on listening circles and I ask about what are my blind spots? Like, just be honest, right? Something about the AWS culture I love is that we use this principle of being vocally self-critical, right? That creates a level of transparency and honesty for others to be honest with us about something that we might not see, right? Or we might have failed, right? Or we might need to improve. So I would say, again, programs, write your vision, right? You know I call it a love letter to make it more personalized. And then three, get your, get feedback. It's essential. >> I like that, there's almost like an id, an ego and an external to that, as well as a qualitative and a quantitative component to that which I think is really interesting. You know, I went to five different classes, or I try, I looked at six different YouTube videos to learn about these skills, versus I took the time to think about what that would actually mean to me and to myself. And I think a lot of folks at any stage in their career journey don't necessarily give themselves the time to have that type of reflection. So it's wonderful to see someone who's been as successful as you talk about both your process as well as that level of transparency and communication. Taking feedback is a skillset that you'll have to use in many aspects of your life moving forward. >> Yeah. It's just communication. That's all it is. Just communication. >> Absolutely. Yes, and working on that is a certainly a lifelong journey. You've had a lot of success in your 15 years of being in the cloud. Can you give us some examples of your favorite moments? >> Yeah, you know, I'm proud. Like I took some, I took very... I got along with that vision, right? I took some very critical steps to ensure that I was taking roles that created mobility, right? You know, going back to starting at BAE systems, working with a aerospace and defense contractor where I had to move different states and get exposure to different platforms and lines of business, IT, manufacturing, down to actually stepping into an international nonprofit firm where I worked the redesign of that company, right? You know, understanding different levels of contracts how do we go to route in the market with other foreign countries, right? And then coming back into my previous- >> Not simple problems there. >> Not simple at all! But pretty amazing. >> To give you a shout out on complexity, yeah. >> Complexity, right? And it constantly be moving. And also, side note to everyone, you know obtaining my additional degrees. So, you know, if you look at my background, you know you'll see a lot of HR former roles. But if you look at the components of those jobs, it was business building, project management agile management, change management, right? So when I, I will say two of my major success moves, well one would be I was chair at Northrop Grumman. It actually allowed me to crack my teeth when it comes to new business acquisition, business proposals, right? So take all that idea of programs but actually being a part of a team to go after some of our most sacred nation contracts and programs that protects our country, right? Building, coming up with a solution and strategy, using technology, using data modernization, pulling together cloud components and then actually going out there and actually identifying the talent across the world that will be aligned to this. And making that and being a part of that team and actually signing off and saying, "Alright, this is what we believe is the best program for our solutions, for our employees for our world, for our nation," right? Had several multiple multi-billion dollar contracts that I worked on that we actually won with the Northrop Grumman that really also, from a side note, helped me build my confidence to say, "Hey, I can do more." Like, "Hey, I don't have 50 years in this industry but you know what I know is I have exposure, I have experience, I have, hey, I have an idea," right? And I know about technology and tools and how this links together into a story to say, "Hey, how does this bring value?" So I would say we had several, again national security programs that I was a part of, and then here at Amazon to speak more for our partners, right? Our partner experience. Just this year, you know, coming into my role within two quarters, we actually delivered, we actually confirmed that we actually identify Amazon opportunities for our partners, right? We believe Amazon opportunities helping our partners route to market helps them actually identify better partner opportunities so we can actually help them attach them to an actual customer. With that, within two quarters we were able to deliver over- >> Just to insert number for scale for folks listening. >> Yes. >> You have over a hundred thousand partners, correct? >> That's right, we have over a hundred thousand partners. >> So echoing on the complexity, it's not just like you're matchmaking, you know, two different people from two different sides of the fence here. >> No. >> The matrix is massive in the flywheel. That's wild. >> Yeah, absolutely. So, you know, with that, we took a subset to start with a subset of partners to say, "Hey how do we just pilot an experiment," right? If we did an exercise where we actually you know, do, you know use tools to identify opportunities that better aligned to partners, and how do we deliver that to them, right? Versus us reacting to just waiting for them to provide something to us. Within- >> What's the biggest challenges for you there? >> Oh gosh. Complexity, right? >> Yeah. >> Complexity partner types. You know, we deal with, you know, system integrators, we deal with independent software vendors, resellers - everyone has their own additional needs. They have their own complexity, they have their own in terms of their makeup, right? In terms of resourcing. So, you know, we have to, on top of that, we have to work with the partner to make sure they're actually ready and equipped to actually receive opportunities from us. And then also how do we help work with them to build a sales plan to go after those opportunities. So it's, it's all of the if you think about the flywheel, yeah we could throw something over the line, but we also have to work with them as one team to say, okay how do we help make this help you launch this opportunity with the customer, with us? >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And so what do you hope to see coming in the next five years? Where do you hope your role takes you at the next... >> Oh gosh. You know, I don't actually go off five years because if I look back at the last 15, I didn't imagine all those different opportunities, by the way. Right? >> Love that. So true. >> So, yeah. So I don't, again, it goes back to like I hate putting boxes over myself and but vision-wise, you know, just to say thank you to my mentors, to my sponsors, you know, I see myself C-suite, right? I see myself over an organization helping again connecting the dots with business growth and opportunities. Now, is it Amazon, I hope? Be wonderful, right? But if it's another large Fortune 500 company, absolutely. But in far, in terms of the cloud computing industry I mean, we're the unimaginable, right? You already, you talk about, you know AI we've talked about in the past, we talk about this meta, you know, this digital transformative world where we're living virtually. That scares me, right? By the way, just to be honest, everyone. But, I do believe that as a company, we are going to be moving to be more digital, you know, I do believe our customers will be more digital. I do think in more virtual engagement, right? And I see myself building those programs to help ensure that our workforce is there, that our sellers are there, that we can actually continue to drive growth and that they're actually equipped to actually align to those opportunities to help our customers grow their business. >> Yeah. The acceleration and the evolution of the modern workforce is a challenge that so many businesses are facing right now. I'm sure tens of thousands, if not all of the six-figure plus partners in your program are experiencing a dynamic range of challenges as a result. And they are all very lucky to have you there to support them. Hopefully everyone at AWS is listening to that nice plug and opportunity to promote you to the C-suite where I'm sure you belong, as time goes on. Switching from digital to diversity just a little bit, it's clear that you have had people in your community who have mentored you and taught and been a part of the education side of your journey. And I'm curious to see, or curious to ask you rather, what are the challenges that you still see in diversity in general today? >> Yeah. Well, you know, it unfortunately is still here. You know, we still have unconscious bias, right? In senior level career advancement. I think that's embedded in our culture and that's something that we constantly have to combat. You know, I was also trained under the mindset and had this belief that say, "Hey let your work speak for yourself." And in reality, it's not about your work, it's also about who knows you and who actually wants to know about you, right? And that equals unconscious bias, right? Someone that actually, you know, for people to see you for who you are and see what you actually contribute versus they just liking you. So, you know, and also too, you know we've run into the issue of being taught in our culture to lean in, right? For a moment there, I believe that, but at some point when you look around and you're like, "Oh gosh, you know I worked all last year, but my pay was only this." Or, "Hey, that person got promoted and they only worked on this one thing." And then you, and then it pinches like, oh, it's still there, right? So I just believe as leaders and including myself as my commitment is like any organization of my part like how do I advocate for others? How do I create opportunities? How do I address it? I'm very blessed to have a leader that also sees what's possible in me and creates those opportunities and, you know, removes those roadblocks and those barriers. But I, you know, I can't lie is that, you know, I've also personally been through that. But then again, I look around my family and my community and I have, you know family that's also civil servants, public servants. This is nothing new, right? And, you know, and I go around them and I get empowered to say, "Hey, you know you can actually do this and this is how you can overcome this." But then also with your commitment as a leader my commitment is how do I create those pathways for others and remove those barriers. And when I see that, how do I address it? >> And how to really be what you're touching on there so much is allyship. >> Yes! >> I think there's, it takes, being an ally takes many forms across workplaces and functions and genders and demographics and anything quite frankly. And not everyone can advocate for themselves as loudly as someone else can. And that's particularly if whatever that demographic is sees itself a lot on the leadership side of things. But it's really easy to compliment a friend or a teammate, and I think it's actually pretty easy to say nice things about them in the room when they're not in there. And that's one of the easiest ways to be an ally. And I love that you just brought that up. I think that, yeah, we just, we forget that someone else is still fighting to be noticed. And when I was looking at your, you let the work speak for itself. One of the lines that I've always referenced is "be so good they can't ignore you" which kind of combines exactly what you just mentioned is the being noticed piece. And I think it's all of our jobs to help other people and the right people and projects get noticed. So, I really love that. >> Yeah. >> Final question for you- >> So actually, just another quick line about that, you know. >> Yeah. >> And also, you know, and this is another reality about this is knowing when to walk away, right? Cause some people can chew and, you know, I do believe in closed doors are a blessing. You know, when you face rejection, you know it's redirection to where you need to go. But I also do believe like I was at this conference years ago and this woman made this analogy. There's, you know, she said, "There's a million men out there, you know, if it doesn't work for you, go get another one." And that's the idea is that your one company is not your only company. There's other companies that might be better aligned to you. Believe in yourself that you're worth it to go find another opportunity that's better aligned where people can actually celebrate you versus where they say this concept of tolerates you. So I just put that out there, is that bold belief that you have to know that about yourself to know that, hey, you're worth it, and there is another company that you can thrive and you're going to be okay. And when you do it, you'll be happy that you actually took that leap of faith. And that's something that I've taken. And when I know that, hey, my time's up, if I sense that if I see that, then I just will move on it. And I'm okay. >> I've been back here behind the curtain just snapping as you've been talking. I couldn't agree more. The only brand you're ever going to represent your whole life is you. >> Yeah. >> And I think you just nailed it. I was going to ask you for some closing inspiration, but I think you you just nailed it with that statement to be quite honest. So I don't want to poison the well. Tia Wiggins, thank you so much for joining us. It is very clear why you are a go-to market leader and AWS is very lucky to have you. And thank you to our audience for joining us for this a special program series here on theCUBE where we are featuring women of the cloud. My name's Savannah Peterson, and may the skies be clear and blue and with beautiful clouds in your universe today. (upbeat music)

(sparkly music) >> Welcome to the Cube Special Program series "Women of the Cloud", brought to you by AWS. I'm your host, Lisa Martin. I'm very pleased to welcome Veronica McCarthy to the program, Senior Sales Manager ISB for Amazon Web Services. Veronica, great to have you on the program. Thanks for joining me today. >> Thanks for having me. >> Tell me a little bit about your current role. A little bit about yourself. >> Absolutely. Yeah, so I've been at Amazon just about four years now. I am really passionate about technology. I've been in the tech industry for about 20 plus years. Right now I'm a sales leader, so I lead a team of folks that help software companies build technology in the cloud or move technology to the cloud and help them scale and innovate in the cloud. >> Awesome, I love that. Talk a little bit about for, for those looking to grow their careers in tech, what are some of the tactical recommendations that you have that you think are really, really pertinent for others that are looking to climb that ladder? >> Yeah, it's so important to have that passion for technology 'cause that's what we do every day. It excites me to jump out of bed and learn what's new, what's coming, what we're building together and how early we are in cloud computing and in technology as a whole. So really get curious and even, you know feel free to get, get hands on. I remember early as a kid just building computers with my dad in his room. So get hands on. Today there's so many things available on the internet for free tiers. You can just play with software to get building websites, games, whatever interests you. And oh by the way, watch the Cube 'cause you're going to learn a lot and you're going to get immersed in technology, which is so important when you're learning to grow a career here because it comes across when you're interviewing, when you're talking with others, when you're networking, that you're really interested in the topic and you're really here to, to grow and and help build tech to be what it can be in the future. >> These are all great recommendations for really building that authenticity. I love your advice of really from an immersion perspective. You're right, there's so many opportunities for people of all ages to start playing around with tech and, and, but that your point of opening up your mind and being curious and embracing the different learning paths is also that curiosity. I always think creativity as well are just really important recommendations for others that are looking to grow their career in tech. >> I want to understand some of, based on some of, of those tactical recommendations. Talk to us about a success story that you've had where you've solved problems for customers relating to cloud computing based on some of your recommendations. >> Totally, just picking up on the curiosity theme that we were talking about, one of the things that I did when I was earlier in my career and I was looking after a customer, is I got curious about their business. How did they interact with their customers? And I worked backwards from that experience 'cause they were selling to consumers and I said what if they could do all these other things that could open up the consumer's eyes? So I came up with a zany idea of what if they did a partnership with Amazon and we flew their goods directly to the end consumer by a drone, you know, just crazy stuff. And I wrote something called a PRFAQ which at Amazon we use very often. It's a press release, frequently asked questions. This PRFAQ was, what could you do in the future with tech? What could, you know things what could we unlock with tech in your business? The C-suite of this company said, "You know what, that's really interesting. We're not going to do that crazy drone thing. But we like the thinking, we like the learning we like thinking about the future. How does cloud help us unlock that future?" So the long story short, they had a monolith OnPrem getting their, getting their technology from a OnPrem monolith to microservices in the cloud unlocks and opens up APIs for them to partner with other organizations to grow their customer base and in turn grow their revenue. This company in particular, pandemic hit, market change. They had to pivot or else they were going to go out of business. And because we had moved their technology from an OnPrem monolith to the cloud they were able to make that pivot and they survived the pandemic and are thriving. So it's a real life example of a success story of just getting curious, understanding the customer's business, coming back from that and then aligning for the future and getting a customer to, to get curious with you and build for the future, which worked out. And who could have predicted the pandemic, but it worked >> Right. But getting the the customer to be curious with you kind of leads me into talking about, you know, and, and the customer wanting to embrace and, and embrace cloud computing is really a transformative business model. Also takes cultural impact. Sounds like what you've been able to achieve with this particular success story. The customer had the appetite from a cultural transformation perspective but that's a hard thing to accomplish. Talk a little bit about that maybe from that customer's perspective and how they really were able to transform into a culture that embraces cloud computing. >> Absolutely. You're spot on . With all of these transformations, it's people process technology. Technology's the easy part, right? The cloud's there, we can, the architecture's there, we can build software. It's the people and the process that's hard. So as part of that transformation and part of that engagement, they actually hired me. So I left Amazon and I went and became the VP of technology for this company and I led 650 engineers globally through this transformation from an OnPrem model with microservices in the cloud. So they put faith in me because they knew this was the outcome we needed to get to but they needed the people in the process to change. So bringing the, the engineers on that journey of I know you've been building this way for a really long time and in this place, we're going to bring you into the future and we're all going to do it together. So it's a learning journey because we're all going to learn how to build microservices in the cloud and we're going to do it together and then it opens up their future as well as they continue to grow as engineers. So it's not easy to do, but it takes time. But we were able to do it in that case. >> But you bring up a great point, it's a learning journey. Yeah. And for organizations to have that appetite and that understanding and appreciation, that is as critical as the technology. You talk about, you know, people across technology. The technology is easy, it's really changing the frames of mind at the speed at which they need to change for organizations to be competitive so they can leverage cloud to really help unlock the competitive advantage as as that success story customer that you mentioned. >> Absolutely. Absolutely. And building on that innovation, right which innovation is just a, a flywheel of learning. So absolutely. >> It is. Let's shift gears a little bit, but speaking of people and processes, you know, what are some of the challenges that you see from a diversity perspective whether it's thought diversity in tech today? >> Yeah, great question. Tech is an opportunity for a level playing ground because tech is a platform with which you can build things. The important piece of building tech though is we need to make sure that many diversities are represented in the room. So when we're making tech decisions of how we're going to build, what our consumers are going to, how they're going to interact with our technology. Not everyone is one individual person. It's not a monolith out there, you know consuming our technology. So let's make sure we have that diversity in the decision making and building the tech as well as in the user use case and, and working backwards from our end users of our technology. I think one of the most, one of the easiest ways to start to approach, approach that diversity of thought and getting that diversity within your teams is looking at a gender diversity ratio. And, and we've seen historically, whilst we've seen gains in gender diversity and technology over the last few years, it's still not where it needs to be. There's a stat that I read recently in a McKinsey study that only one in four C-suite leaders are women today. And of all of all the entry level jobs from entry level to manager of all, like let's say you take a hundred men only 87 of those are women that are concurrently being promoted. Only 82 are women of color. So it's an opportunity for us to really level the playing field and think about how do we intentionally put people in the room when tech decisions are being made that can make change and build tech for who we, we know is out there to consume and, and are be a part of our tech community. >> Intention you mentioned. That is so critical for organizations really need to be looking at diversity, DEI from a, from an an intentional perspective. It can't just be ad hoc here and there. They really have to have a strategy behind it. And when I see companies, and there are a few that I've worked with that really caught my eye that have done a phenomenal job of that thought diversity, gender diversity, cultural diversity within their leadership even the people that they put on stage to talk to their events, they stand out incredibly well. We also know that there's, you probably have numbers on this, that organizations with women in the C-suite are far more profitable than organizations that don't have that. So the data, we want to talk nerdy tech, the data is there. It's demonstrating what the potentials are the capabilities, the, the opportunities. Yet we're still so far behind and we have so much road to cover. We know the direction we need to go in, we just got to be able to get the teams behind that to get there. >> Absolutely. And data's key. I read a study recently that said if you don't have at least 30% diversity in the room when you're making decisions, you are statistically not going to make the right decision, which is incredible. So the powers and the data. We know better decisions are made. Companies do better when there's diversity in the room of all types. >> Absolutely. And can you imagine the sky's the limit, if organizations are actually able to just start making headway on that percentage number and shifting it towards that diversity. What incredible opportunities and technologies and services and solutions that can be developed and delivered to meet the demanding consumers needs. So much potential there. It's, it's a, it's kind of like a crystal ball. If only we had one, we could actually see what we could actually be. >> Yeah, you're absolutely right. And I think thinking about some of the older reasons why maybe women didn't stay in the workforce longer or maybe didn't take a a career in tech, a lot of those were minimized during the pandemic. So we think about the work from home concept, right? Like that's so normal now it's, we're no longer grinding you know, I have to leave early for daycare pickup or whatever the challenges or the perceived challenges there were to women progressing in their careers. A lot of that can be managed now. So there was some good things that have come out of that pandemic time that, you know, it's much more acceptable to be home remote working. I think the balance isn't making sure that we continue our in-person innovation where we can. I find with customers today, bringing executive teams together in a room to have them brainstorm and innovate is still priceless, right? Like we still have to spend that time, we're humans, but as a woman in technology, I love the flexibility that we are now taking and adopting as a norm. And even, you know, some of my male peers that have kids at home, they love being around the kids at home and and it's a, it's a real positive impact I think that we've had amongst a lot of negative impacts by the pandemic as well. >> It is, they're definitely silver linings. That's one of them. I was talking with somebody in, in Italy this morning we were filming and you said, "I don't think my daughters are going to run in here." And I thought, you know what, even if they do that's part of totally the remote workforce, that's part of the hybrid workforce that we're all embracing. But you bring up a great point about the in-person innovation. You know, events are starting to come back, so exciting. There's just certain things about event from an innovation perspective you just can't replicate by video. So getting those executives in a room together. Talk about what you guys are doing there and, and some of the things that you think of over the next few years that will really help drive evolution and innovation of tech. >> Absolutely, yeah. I have a lot of clients that often will say, "Oh well we're we're a remote first company." So it's okay that we do our innovation session online. But then I remind them of when was the last happy hour you had online? Like do you remember the early days of the pandemic? And we all sat on, you know pick your web conferencing platform and we, you know drank wine and but there was only one person that you could hear in that. So when they're, everybody's going around and all the boxes are on the screen, it was difficult to have multiple conversations. If you walk into a happy hour in, in real life people all over the room are having multiple conversations and a lot of different things are happening in the room at the same time. It's the same thing with innovation. If we bring an executive team into the room, guess what? There's going to be a couple sidebar conversations going on as the big room progresses. And that's really healthy and that's a great way to get people that may not be the one, the star of the happy hour that wants to speak the whole time to also get their inputs and their feedback into the innovation process. So that's just an example of why it's so important. One of the things we do here at Amazon is we have so called a digital innovation workshop which is exactly as it sounds, right? Just get in a room with some whiteboards, with some thought leaders and really let's innovate for the future and it's a blank sheet of paper kind of start and out of it we come up with a business plan, a PRFAQ, like a press release I mentioned in my story earlier. That's the seeds of that. So it's really powerful and I'm so excited we're continuing to do those face to face 'cause it's so important. >> It's so important, you know, to have diversity present in the room when decisions are being made, whether it's decisions about technology or not. That thought diversity is, and as the data show that you mentioned, demonstrates how much more successful and profitable organizations can be. I'm going to ask you kind of switching gears again. Last question. If we look kind of down the road from an evolution perspective of of you're in cloud, of your role evolving. What are some of the things that you see down down the pike? >> Yeah, so great question. I am in a field sales organization today, so when the pandemic first hit, I thought, oh boy, that's the end of our career. I think we're not going to be going out and calling on customers face to face anymore. But it's actually been the opposite. I've seen more engagement from our customers. They, they really do want to spend time with us innovating. When we come into those conversations we come in with a curious mindset. So I think from a field sales perspective, it's it's not, you know, going away. And I think it's going to continue to build and it's a great career for women in particular to get into. Super flexible, the privilege of travel which is a nice vacation from home life sometimes. And the, the benefit of working from home as well. So a good balance there. So I think from a, my role specifically it's going to continue to evolve and continue to be a growth area. >> From previous roles I've had where I've worked in technology and, and software development, I think are we're still such at early stages in cloud computing and cloud technology that there is so much technology that we're continuing to build from an engineering standpoint. And I think back to my, you know, 20 year old self if I was in those shoes today and I would absolutely be doing a career in engineering. I think it's such an exciting space and as a person of, of of a, as a female I want to be at the forefront of the engineering team. So I encourage anyone if they're, you know of a diverse background, like you are the people that I want in engineering in the future because that's how you're going to build the future is build the tech, which is really cool. >> So absolutely. It's, it's very cool. I do have one more question for you. What's of your lens, what's next in cloud? What are some of the things that you think are coming down the horizon? >> Yeah, so great question. So I, I actually have a son who's special needs and I think about some of the accommodations that we have to make for him today. And I think about the tech that's coming in terms of personal tech on helping him communicate or helping him read or helping him write. And I'm excited for his future where I think a diagnosis like his, if I'd gotten it many years ago, I would be very fearful about his future. But I know that tech is going to support people like him. So I'm excited for what it's going to do for humanity. I'm excited for what it's going to help us unlock for people that may have been hindered in previous lives. My, my mom grew up with a disability and she had to keep her career relatively low level because she couldn't overcome that disability without tech. And now that she has tech, you know it would've changed the game for her. So I'm excited for my son and his future. That's what inspires me and, and I'm excited about. >> I love that. Well, with a mom like you, he's sure to succeed and fly flying colors. Veronica, it's been such a pleasure having you on the Cube. >> Thank you. >> Exciting special series of women in the cloud. We so appreciate your insights and your time. You'll have to come back. >> Thank you so much. I appreciate it. >> All right, Veronica McCarthy. I'm Lisa Martin. You're watching The Cube's special program series Women of the Cloud, brought to you by AWS. Thanks for watching. (sparkly music)

(upbeat music) >> Hey everyone, welcome to theCUBE's special program series Women of the Cloud, brought to you by AWS. I'm your host, Lisa Martin. Very pleased to welcome Angie Perez Thomas the area sales leader from AWS as my next guest. Angie, welcome to theCUBE. It's great to have you here. >> I'm super excited. Thank you so much, Lisa. >> Of course. Talk to me a little bit about you a little bit about your role in sales at AWS. >> Yeah, absolutely. So I'm a tenure Amazonian so I've been with AWS for about 10 years here. And as you mentioned, I'm the area sales leader and so my team supports new enterprise customers and executives who are just starting their journey into the cloud. >> Talk a little bit about some of your career paths. Did you have a linear path? You said tenure Amazonian, linear path maybe more Zig-zaggy. I'd love to get some of your recommendations for those who may be early in their tech careers looking to grow their careers. What are some of the experiences that you've had that you think are have shaped your career? >> Yeah, absolutely. So, you know, mine have, I've gone back and forth through different roles, both in leadership and as an IC and I'd probably say I've got three recommendations for those looking to grow their career in technology. So the first one is prioritize your time to actually think about what career experiences you want in in your fullness of your career. And so this actually may look like sitting down reserving time to actually deep think about what are those experiences you're looking to gain but also doing research on other careers of those who may inspire you and kind of collecting those ideas. My second recommendation is around documenting, writing down those career aspirations and actually putting it within and memorializing it within a document. So I've applied Amazon's working backwards methodology myself and applied that on my career and writing my own career press release. And so it's dated in 2029. It's got a headline and you know, it's a physical document of my own career aspirations. And third, I recommend sharing this documentation with others. You know, I really enjoy receiving and reading what others are wanting to do with their career aspirations and helping provide feedback and guidance. And so what we find is people genuinely want to help others. >> I agree. I love your recommendations for really being mindful, being thoughtful about what it is that you want to do doing that research, and then actually documenting it. I think it's so wonderful that you're taking Amazon's working backward approach from the press release going this is where I want to be in five years or in 10 years. And then putting that on paper. I still connect a lot with things like you that you put down on paper that you want to accomplish or something about writing it down that actually helps to you bring it to fruition. And then to your point is great about sharing it with others that can be mentors, that can be sponsors. I'm sure you've had some great mentors and sponsors along your career path that have probably helped you pretty successful. >> Yeah, absolutely. It's been really an effective tool for communicating with those who have helped me navigate as well. >> Talk a little bit about some of the successes now we'll switch gears but we'll continue on the success train. Some of the successes that you've had helping organizations really navigate, migrate to the cloud and and become successful businesses as a result. >> Yeah, no, absolutely. So across my tenure at AWS, you know I've truly enjoyed working with our customer executives and helping them deliver on their business outcomes. And so just recently I met with the COO of a real estate firm here in the Pacific Northwest and the COO has an initiative to identify and modify home titles and deeds with decades old discriminatory language and restrictions. So, although not invisible, due to the Fair Housing Act of 1968, racial covenants they're still present in millions of home titles across the United States today. And so partnering with AWS and using our cloud technology, you know, our teams together were able to build an application that was able to where homeowners are able to look up their titles you know, analyze it for discriminatory language and be able to submit it for modification. And so this, you know, today it can be done manually, but partnering with AWS, our teams were able to address modifying titles and deeds at scale. And so it's truly incredible what cloud computing has enabled just all of us to accomplish together. And so I kind of think of it like this our a catalyst for change is our customers and AWS and our partners is the how to accelerate that change. So it's really this partnership >> I love that accelerating change is so important across so many aspects of life, but the example that you gave is so, it's such an interesting use case. I wouldn't think that there is discriminatory language in deeds for houses, but the fact that it's probably a pervasive problem globally and the ability to help organizations to be able to change that for the better with cloud, with automation at scale is huge. I can imagine that's a use case that can be replicated surely across the states and more. >> Yeah, it's definitely gained interest across with different real estate forms across the United States. So we're really excited to be partnering and having impact on this change. >> And it's also an example of tech for good. I mean, we talk about that all the time but the fact that there's discriminatory language and housing deeds is still kind of blows my mind. But and we've seen so much in tech in terms of diversity and equity and inclusion but from a diversity perspective there's still a lot more to do. I'd love to get your opinion on what you think some of the the present day challenges are with respect to diversity in tech and maybe some of the things you think can be changed to for the better. >> Yeah, so you know, there's been a huge focus on, you know hiring for diverse talent in the tech industry for a number of years. And where I think we as an industry have an opportunity is to improve in investing and developing in this diverse talent and try to really think about how are we building up the skillsets to build today's and tomorrow's leaders. And so when I think about this it requires senior leaders to be really intentional about building a diverse ecosystem of talent and investing in this diverse talent. And let me clarify a little bit when I talk about investing in diverse talent, you know, this expands outside of just mentoring. This includes sponsoring, coaching, really providing opportunities where this talent has the ability to have a seat at the table. Getting into the room where it all happens. And so by doing so we're helping this talent build their skillsets to learn what questions are being asked within, the room? How are others communicating with each other? So that they can build the skillset so not only have a seat at the table but can be really leading with that seat at the table. And I would say last, we as companies we tend to or you know, we in the industry, we tend to just focus on developing those within our companies. And where I see a need is to really challenge the industry to reach outside of our own companies in diverse talent. And so developing just that ecosystem because not just thinking about the roles that are open today but really building the skillsets for the roles and and senior level positions that are going to be open tomorrow and making sure we're developing this talent to raise their hand and be the leading candidate for those opportunities. >> I love how you said kind of really a couple things that you know, with all the women in this program that I've spoken to is a common theme in terms of diversity and it's really about senior leaders making investments. And another thing that you said that's spot on is doing it with intention. There's so much to be gained by having an intention with diversity, thought diversity. To your point, going outside, it sounds to me like kind of let's go outside of our comfort zones to bring in different thoughts, different perspectives be able to grow them in their career because of course technologies and products and solutions can only get better the more diversity of thought we have. >> Yeah, no, absolutely. It's really being intentional. We as senior leaders, we have a law on our plate. And so yes this is an additional thing to be thinking about but it really has impact and change in driving the right things both for our customers and for the industry as well. And so it's an investment that's worth making. >> And speaking of that investment worth making I liked how you said, let's have some forethought about what are some of the roles that are going to be there in the future. How are some of the roles today going to be evolving? How do you see your role evolving in the next few years? How do you see cloud evolving and what excites you about that? >> Yeah, well, cloud has really been helping our customers move faster and adapt to just the ever changing landscape. I mean it's over the last couple years it's been very real for all of us to see. And so my role has moved from just being an advisor to a CIO to actually being an advisor to both the CEO and board of directors and when they come speak to us, cost or cloud is not just about cost savings, it truly is about helping a CEO deliver on their business outcomes. So I'll give an example. We're working with a growing community bank and their executive team has embarked on a transformation to becoming a digital first bank. And so when we think about the economic factors that they're working with them to come to mind. The first, their move towards online banking has it's accelerated with the pandemic really creating that customer experience of which when you think about local banks, you think about community where everybody knows your name over in the brick and mortar down the road. Well they have to bridge that community and trust into the digital world. And second, they needed to improve on operational efficiencies. And so they have to strategically think about what investments they're going to make to balance inflation while driving growth. And so where I've been finding both myself and my teams is having a seat at the table with these executives, helping them make these strategic business decisions. And we know we're successful when our customers are able to deliver on those business outcomes. They meet those objectives, they exceed those objectives. And then we know we've just exceeded customer expectation when our partnership actually shows up in their next earnings call. You know, it's really special. >> Oh, I bet it is. I mean, being able to be that influential in terms of an organization's success I love how you talked about kind of a career evolution that your career has evolved from now you're really with the board of directors having a seat at the table there. My last question for you is kind of on that front Angie is what are some of the changes in in the tech workforce that you've seen the last few years and what are some of the things that you're excited about that are down the road? >> Yeah, so a couple things where I've really seen change and evolution has been in the leadership level. We are needing to lead with empathy and really think about inclusion as a cornerstone skillset. So for our customers, our partners, our employees we've really moved into this hybrid environment. We're both leaders and team norms. We're challenged to change. We have to adapt. And so really having inclusion as that foundational skillset is a requirement for both today and tomorrow's leaders. What I'm really excited about is on the innovation front. Anyone can innovate now, you don't need to be a part of the R&D division of a company. We're seeing that cloud is providing tools all the way down to the elementary student level. So when you think about that, just think the imagination of our youth, brought to life with cloud technology. I mean, the future really is bright. >> It is. That horizon is endless. And I'm going to take some of your advice, Angie I loved that you talked about from your own perspective and your recommendations for the audience. Write that down, write your own press release in terms of what you want to see down the road. I'm going to take your advice, I'm going to do that. I thank you so much for joining me on the program. You've been so inspiring. Your career path has been impressive. What you're seeing in terms of innovation and cloud coming next is incredibly exciting. Thank you so much for your time, Angie. >> Thank you Lisa. >> For Angie Perez Thomas. I'm Lisa Martin. You're watching theCUBE's special program series Women of the Cloud, brought to you by AWS. We'll see you soon. (upbeat music)

(bright, upbeat music) >> Hello, brilliant humans and welcome to this special programming on theCUBE featuring Women of the Cloud, brought to you by AWS. My name is Savannah Peterson, and I am very excited to be joined by a brilliant woman both in supply chain as well as digital transformation. Please welcome Jeanette Barlow, VP of Product at Instacart. Jeanette, thank you so much for joining us from Boston today. How you doing? >> Thank you. I'm doing well, thank you. And thank you to the Amazon team for letting me join you. I'm excited to participate in this. I think it's such an important topic to learn all about how as women we're helping shape the future of business, supply chain, consumer experiences. So thank you very much. >> That's fantastic to have you and to be really celebrating women of the cloud properly. To start us off, how long, let's just, let's run with this. How long have you been a woman of the cloud? (Jeanette and Savannah laugh) >> Oh, probably since there, before there was a cloud, actually I have spent my entire career in enterprise technology and I spent nearly 25 years actually with IBM. And, you know, I remember when the internet really took off as far as a highly accessible thing and then the very beginnings of e-commerce where it was really the wild west and it was such a different experience than you get now. And I've been very fortunate throughout that journey to have a variety of roles from sales, marketing, communications. I eventually landed in product management and that's pretty much where I stayed. >> Savannah: At least for now. >> At least for now. >> Sounds like you're very curious. I can tell that you are a very curious person. Since you've been around for what I would consider a, an impressive period of time in an industry, especially when there were not a ton of women to reference or receive mentorship from, what was the initial catalyst or spark or inspiration for you to pursue a career in technology? >> I'll be really honest, getting out of college with college debt, money. (Savannah laughs) The best salary, I'm not going to sugarcoat that but once I landed there, it just was so amazing how technological advance advances were fundamentally changing the way businesses would work or how humans could get things done. And that whole, my whole career trajectory has been very much working at the forefront of new areas whether that be collaboration, software or supply chain which is, obviously we're all well aware, such a deep and important area and even low-code workflow automation before I came to Instacart. >> I love the transparency there. It's a indicator of a great leader and that level of authenticity. Were there any hurdles that you felt you had to overcome in the beginning or was the curiosity enough to power through the initial first few years that are always tough for anyone, no matter their gender or career? >> I think I was a very fortunate person. I do want to say that, sure, there are a lot of long hours and I often felt that I had to be more prepared, maybe than some of my colleagues that were men back, way back in the day. But I had the very good fortune of working for companies throughout my history that really believed in an equitable and respectful workplace. And I had wonderful mentors, both women and men, along the way who really were there to help develop talent. So I never felt that I had sort of a glass ceiling. I definitely felt that I had to to sit there and assert a point of view, at times. >> Savannah: Mm-Hm. >> But, I've seen this whole industry and space change and it's not just gender, but also racial backgrounds educational backgrounds, that neurodiversity I'm now seeing much greater respect for listening to that chorus of voices because we do get better, much better outcomes that way. >> Absolutely. I couldn't agree more and I'm happy to hear that you've been supported along your journey. I think the industry can definitely get a bad rap and there are a lot of people paving the way for us. I want to talk a little bit about supply chain because I don't know about you, but for me I don't think there were as many people talking about the industry and probably what you do, say four years ago, as are now. How did you find your way into supply chain and what is it about helping that be more efficient that excites you? >> Yes. There's nothing like a shortage of toilet paper to get people to. (Savannah laughs) Or to understand what supply chain means. And I, as tough as those times were, especially at the beginning of the pandemic and the uncertainty, it was so exciting for those of us in supply chain because suddenly people got what we did like- >> Savannah: Mm-Hm. >> And they were interested in hearing about it. So I really, I really have, we did enjoy that. I got exposed to that because ultimately I served as the Vice President of Product Management and Strategy for IBM, Sterling Supply Chain which was a very large brand within the IBM portfolio, serving over 10,000 clients worldwide, really focused on their omnichannel order management and their other supply chain processes around order to cash, procure to pay, logistics and things like that. And when you start to learn about the intricacies and that choreography needed across so many players in the value chain, it's an absolutely fascinating puzzle. And- >> Savannah: Yeah. >> Often the further away from the consumer experience you got, the more analog it became. And so the opportunity to start to digitize and transform that was really something that was very, very intriguing. And now here at Instacart, the opportunity to sort of parlay that into one of probably the most complex supply chains that there are, grocery, food just adds another level- >> Yeah. >> Of excitement intrigue to the work. >> I can only imagine there are, I'm just thinking about it right now. I'm not sure there are many supply chains, if any that touch as many lives as food does, as, I mean so is that what brought you, you joined Instacart relatively recently if I'm not mistaken, within the last year. Is that what brought you to them? Was the complexity of that global challenge? >> Absolutely. That was definitely the start of it, was so intriguing to me to see, to, the more I learned about Instacart when they approached me was also they're really changing an industry that's been very static for many, many years, right? And they're fundamentally reshaping that industry. One that's, as you said, is crucial to the everyday lives of pretty much everyone. And I was intrigued by that. But I was also intrigued by the breadth at which they're approaching this, not just the marketplace, but how we are helping retailers through our Instacart platform actually reach their consumers in ways that they like to shop whether it's online or in the store. We are also very, very committed to not just serving from a convenience standpoint, but actually improving access to healthy and nutritious food for as many people as might need that. So it just, core to the complexity of the problem the criticality of it, but also just frankly speaking to the core of who Instacart is as a company, I, it just felt like it was like a culmination of a lot of things to have this opportunity to work here. >> Sounds like a fantastic opportunity. I want to dive a little bit deeper into the technology side there. How is Instacart's technology helping grocers with varying levels of scale and geographical challenges and I'm sure a variety of other things and even a digital skillset. How are you helping them navigate their digital transformation? >> You know, this is probably one of the sectors that lags behind other retail sectors as far as digital transformation. And when the progress that's been made over the last four years is tremendous. And the road ahead is still before us is still a long way to go. I mean Instacart built the world's largest grocery marketplace, if you want to think about that. And so we have more than 10 years of experience in understanding the complexity of that. With, again a supply chain that is very, very complex. So last spring we announced the Instacart platform as a way of really putting a name to a lot of work we were already doing. And it's all about opening up the capability and the technology that we have to help grocers reach their customers directly as well as through our marketplace. So we help grocers like Publix, Wegmans, The Fresh Market just hundreds of grocers build out their own storefronts, their own mobile apps and that we are actually powering for them. We help them create some very unique fulfillment models that might serve customers or be new market opportunities. Certainly we have the traditional full service shop, but we also have virtual convenience that can enable delivery in minutes. And in certain geographies and demographics, that's, you know, really important. We are even going in the store with our connected stores technologies that we announced earlier this year, and that is everything from smart cards to scan and pay to wayfinding that it just, it's a lot of very interesting work we're doing and we're very, very fortunate to be able to partner with some of the best and brightest grocery retailers out there as well as retailers and other verticals as well. But grocery store is sort of our core. >> Yeah, I can only imagine some of the conversations that you have and the user behaviors that you get to learn about as people are on their food journey. You teased a little bit there about what's coming next. What else do you think is in our food future? >> Well, I think, you know, the pandemic pushed the grocery industry to get online to start to digitally transform itself, but we believe it's not an either or. There are virtually no one that's exclusively online and we know more and more there's no one that's exclusively you know, only in the store. We really expect to have that blend and I think as long as we're very, very savvy about understanding the, our retailers' needs as well as their customers' needs on how they can really traverse seamlessly between whether they're online or in store, how they can have an engaging experience that's consistent to the brand of the retailer. >> Savannah: Mm-Hm. >> How they can be rewarded for their loyalty. How they can be encouraged to try new things and just have a much more engaging experience with that grocer because food is a very emotional sort of buy, right? I mean, it's a very sensory rich. And so how- >> Sort of? I think you can go ahead and just make that claim. Just for a lot of people, yeah, yeah. We'll endorse that. >> You're right, yeah, it is. Right, we're passionate about our brand of this or that or we want to touch or smell or do things like that. So there's a tremendous amount of innovation you get online, like personalization and other things that you don't get when you get, you walk into the store, everybody's got the same end cap like I see the same end cap as you see and we might be very different. And then vice versa. I get a very much a sensory experience when I'm in the store, right? That I don't have, how do we blend that? And so there's some really interesting things that we're working on with our retail partners to embrace that omnichannel approach. So we create that flywheel of experience and innovation between the two. So I think you're going to see a lot more focus on an omnichannel experience that traverses between the on and the in, online and the in-store. >> Yeah, I, so I love this because you know, we, there's a continued debate around remote and in-person, working remote and in-person events, but it sounds like hybrid is here to stay when it comes to food and and how we eat, which is very exciting. Last question for you, Jeanette. What would you say to someone, a woman of any age who is looking at this video or maybe dreaming about a career in cloud technology? What's your moment of inspiration? >> You know, I think my best advice is all, you know, stay curious. Just be in love with not even just the technology for technology's sake, but what the technology can unlock as far as an experience and focus on building those experiences. Not only for your direct customer in my case, retailers, grocers, but for their customer. Trying to understand that. And I think if you can connect those dots, you know the cloud is the limit, let's put it that way. (Jeanette and Savannah laugh) >> I'll take it upon that. I love that. Jeanette Barlow, thank you so much for joining us. The team at Instacart is lucky to have you. And thank you to our audience for joining us for this special program on theCUBE featuring Women of the Cloud. My name is Savannah Peterson and I look forward to celebrating more brilliant women like Jeanette with you all soon. (upbeat, happy music)

(upbeat music) >> Hey everyone. Welcome to theCUBE's special program series "Women of the Cloud", brought to you by AWS. I'm your host for the program, Lisa Martin. Very pleased to welcome back one of our alumni to this special series, Dr. Tendu Yogurtcu joins us, the CTO of Precisely. >> Lisa: Tendu, it's great to see you, it's been a while, but I'm glad that you're doing so well. >> Geez, it's so great seeing you too, and thank you for having me. >> My pleasure. I want the audience to understand a little bit about you. Talk to me a little bit about you, about your role and what are some of the great things that you're doing at Precisely. >> Of course. As CTO, my current role is driving technology vision and innovation, and also coming up with expansion strategies for Precisely's future growth. Precisely is the leader in data integrity. We deliver data with trust, with maximum accuracy, consistency, and also with context. And as a CTO, keeping an eye on what's coming in the business space, what's coming up with the emerging challenges is really key for me. Prior to becoming CTO, I was General Manager for the Syncsort big data business. And previously I had several engineering and R&D leadership roles. I also have a bit of academia experience. I served as a part-time faculty in computer science department in a university. And I am a person who is very tuned to giving back to my community. So I'm currently serving as a advisory board member in the same university. And I'm also serving as a advisory board member for a venture capital firm. And I take pride in being a dedicated advocate for STEM education and STEM education for women in particular, and girls in the underserved areas. >> You have such a great background. The breadth of your background, the experience that you have in the industry as well in academia is so impressive. I've known you a long time. I'd love the audience to get some recommendations from you. For those of the audience looking to grow and expand their careers in technology, what are some of the things that you that you've experienced that you would recommend people do? >> First, stay current. What is emerging today is going to be current very quickly. Especially now we are seeing more change and change at the increased speed than ever. So keeping an eye on on what's happening in the market if you want to be marketable. Now, some of the things that I will say, we have shortage of skills with data science, data engineering with security cyber security with cloud, right? We are here talking about cloud in particular. So there is a shortage of skills in the emerging technologies, AI, ML, there's a shortage of skills also in the retiring technologies. So we are in this like spectrum of skills shortage. So stay tuned to what's coming up. That's one. And on the second piece is that the quicker you tie what you are doing to the goals of the business, whether that's revenue growth whether that's customer retention or cost optimization you are more likely to grow in your career. You have to be able to articulate what you are doing and how that brings value to business to your boss, to your customers. So that becomes an important one. And then third one is giving back. Do something for the women in technology while being a woman in technology. Give back to your community whether that's community is gender based or whether it's your alumni, whether it's your community social community in your neighborhood or in your country or ethnicity. Give back to your community. I think that's becoming really important. >> I think so too. I think that paying it forward is so critical. I'm sure that you have a a long list of mentors and sponsors that have guided you along the way. Giving back to the community paying it forward I think is so important. For others who might be a few years behind us or even maybe have been in tech for the same amount of time that are looking to grow and expand their career having those mentors and sponsors of women who've been through the trenches is inspiring. It's so helpful. And it really is something that we need to do from a diversity perspective alone, right? >> Correct. Correct. And we have seen that, we have seen, for example Covid impact in women in particular. Diverse studies done by girls who quote on Accenture that showed that actually 50% of the women above age 35 were actually dropping out of the technology. And those numbers are scary. However, on the other side we have also seen incredible amount of technology innovation during that time with cloud adoption increasing with the ability to actually work remotely if you are even living in not so secure areas, for example that created more opportunities for women to come back to workforce as well. So we can turn the challenges to opportunities and watch out for those. I would say tipping points. >> I love that you bring up such a great point. There are so, so the, the data doesn't lie, right? The data shows that there's a significant amount of churn for women in technology. But to your point, there are so many opportunities. You mentioned a minute ago the skills gap. One of the things we talk about often on theCUBE and we're talking about cybersecurity which is obviously it's a global risk for companies in every industry, is that there's massive opportunity for people of, of any type to be able to grow their skills. So knowing that there's trend, but there's also so much opportunity for women in technology to climb the ladder is kind of exciting. I think. >> It is. It is exciting. >> Talk to me a little bit about, I would love for the audience to understand some of your hands-on examples where you've really been successful helping organizations navigate digital transformation and their entry and success with cloud computing. What are some of those success stories that you're really proud of? >> Let me think about, first of all what we are seeing is with the digital transformation in general, every single business every single vertical is becoming a technology company. Telecom companies are becoming a technology company. Financial services are becoming a technology company and manufacturing is becoming a technology company. So every business is becoming technology driven. And data is the key. Data is the enabler for every single business. So when we think about the challenges, one of the examples that I give a big challenge for our customers is I can't find the critical data, I can't access it. What are my critical data elements? Because I have so high volumes growing exponentially. What are the critical data elements that I should care and how do I access that? And we work at Precisely with 99 of Fortune 100. So we have two 12,000 customers in over a hundred countries which means we have customers whose businesses are purely built on cloud, clean slate. We also have businesses who have very complex set of data platforms. They have financial services, insurance, for example. They have critical transactional workloads still running on mainframes, IBM i servers, SAP systems. So one of the challenges that we have, and I work with key customers, is on how do we make data accessible for advanced analytics in the cloud? Cloud opens up a ton of open source tools, AI, ML stack lots of tools that actually the companies can leverage for that analytics in addition to elasticity in addition to easy to set up infrastructure. So how do we make sure the data can be actually available from these transactional systems, from mainframes at the speed that the business requires. So it's not just accessing data at the speed the business requires. One of our insurance customers they actually created this data marketplace on Amazon Cloud. And the, their challenge was to make sure they can bring the fresh data on a nightly basis initially and which became actually half an hour, every half an hour. So the speed of the business requirements have changed over time. We work with them very closely and also with the Amazon teams on enabling bringing data and workloads from the mainframes and executing in the cloud. So that's one example. Another big challenge that we see is, can I trust my data? And data integrity is more critical than ever. The quality of data, actually, according to HBR Harvard Business Review survey, 47% of every new record of data has at least one critical data error, 47%. So imagine, I was talking with the manufacturing organization couple of weeks ago and they were giving me an example. They have these three letter quotes for parts and different chemicals they use in the manufacturing. And the single letter error calls a shutdown of the whole manufacturing line. >> Wow. >> So that kind of challenge, how do I ensure that I can actually have completeness of data cleanness of data and consistency in that data? Moreover, govern that on a continuous basis becomes one of the use cases that we help customers. And in that particular case actually we help them put a data governance framework and data quality in their manufacturing line. It's becoming also a critical for, for example ESG, environment, social and governance, supply chain, monitoring the supply chain, and assessing ESG metrics. We see that again. And then the third one, last one. I will give an example because I think it's important. Hybrid cloud becoming critical. Because there's a purest view for new companies. However, facilitating flexible deployment models and facilitating cloud and hybrid cloud is also where we really we can help our customers. >> You brought up some amazingly critical points where it comes to data. You talked about, you know, a minute ago, every company in every industry has to become a technology company. You could also say every company across every industry has to become a data company. They have to become a software company. But to your point, and what it sounds like precisely is really helping organizations to do is access the data access data that has high integrity data that is free of errors. Obviously that's business critical. You talked about the high percentage of errors that caused manufacturing shutdown. Businesses can't, can't have that. That could potentially be life-ending for an organization. So it sounds like what you're talking about data accessibility, data integrity data governance and having that all in real time is table stakes for businesses. Whether it's your grocery store, your local coffee shop a manufacturing company, and e-commerce company. It's table stakes globally these days. >> It is, and you made a very good point actually, Lisa when you talked about the local coffee shop or the retail. One other interesting statistic is that almost 80% of every data has a location attribute. So when we talk about data integrity we no longer talk about just, and consistency of data. We also talk about context, right? When you are going, for example, to a new town you are probably getting some reminders about where your favorite coffee shop is or what telecom company has an office in that particular town. Or if you're an insurance company and a hurricane is hitting southern Florida. Then you want to know how the path of that hurricane is going to impact your customers and predict the claims before they happen. Also understand the propensity of the potential customers that you don't yet have. So location and context, those additional attributes of demographics, visitations are creating actually more confident business insights. >> Absolutely. And and as the consumer we're becoming more and more demanding. We want to be able to transact things so easily whether it's in our personal life at the grocery store, at that cafe, or in our business life. So those demands from the customer are also really influencing the direction that companies need to go. And it's actually, I think it's quite exciting that the amount of personalization the location data that you talk about that comes in there and really helps companies in every industry deliver these the cloud can, these amazing, unique personalized experiences that really drive business forward. We could talk about that all day long. I have no problem. But I want to get in our final minutes here, Tendu. What do you see as in your crystal ball as next for the cloud? How do you see your role as CTO evolving? >> Sure. For what we are seeing in the cloud I think we will start seeing more and more focus on sustainability. Sustainable technologies and governance. Obviously cloud migrations cloud modernizations are helping with that. And we, we are seeing many of our customers they started actually assessing the ESG supply chain and reporting on metrics whether it's the percentage of face or energy consumption. Also on the social metrics on diversity age distribution and as well as compliance piece. So sustainability governance I think that will become one area. Second, security, we talked about IT security and data privacy. I think we will see more and more investments around those. Cybersecurity in particular. And ethical data access and ethics is becoming center to everything we are doing as we have those personalized experiences and have more opportunities in the cloud. And the third one is continued automation with AI, ML and more focus on automation because cloud enables that at scale. And the work that we need to do is too time-intensive and too manual with the amount of data. Data is powering every business. So automation is going to be an increased focus how my role evolves with that. So I have this unique combination. I have been open to non-linear career paths throughout my growth. So I have an understanding of how to innovate and build products that solve real business problems. I also have an understanding of how to sell them build partnerships that combined with the the scale of growth, the hyper growth that we have absorbed in precisely 10 times growth within the last 10 years through a combination of organic innovation and acquisitions really requires the speed of change. So change, implementing change at scale as well as at speed. So taking those and bringing them to the next challenge is the evolution of my role. How do I bring those and tackle keep an eye on what's coming as a challenge in the industry and how they apply those skills that I have developed throughout my career to that next challenge and evolve with it, bring the innovation to data to cloud and the next challenge that we are going to see. >> There's so much on the horizon. It's, there are certainly challenges, you know within technology, but there's so much opportunity. You've done such a great job highlighting your career path the, the big impact that you're helping organizations make leveraging cloud and the opportunity that's there for the rest of us to really get in there get our hands dirty and solve problems. Tendu, I always love our conversations. It's been such a pleasure having you back, back on theCUBE. Thank you for joining us on this special program series today. >> Thank you Lisa. And also thanks to AWS for the opportunity. >> Absolutely. This is brought, brought to us by AWS. For Dr.Tendu, you are good to go. I'm Lisa Martin. You're watching theCUBE special program series Women of the Cloud. We thank you so much for watching and we'll see you soon. (upbeat music)

(bright music plays) >> Welcome to theCUBE's Special Program Series: Women of the Cloud, brought to you by AWS. I'm your host, Lisa Martin. Very pleased to welcome our next guest, Sherry Karamdashti, sales director at AWS Startups. Sherry, welcome to the program. It's great to have you today. >> Thanks for having me, Lisa. >> Tell me a little bit about you, a little bit about your role at AWS Startups. >> Great. Yes, um, I run the startup sales in the US uh, for AWS. I've joined AWS really early in the cloud journey, um, that was in 2013, so I'm almost 10 years there, all in sales leadership. So I've been able to work with really amazing customers, mostly, you know, startups in the beginning cause those were our predominantly original customers. And now obviously going to, the business has grown to, you know, other enterprises and, and really have seen some great things in my 10 year journey. >> Lisa: So you're almost a 10 year Amazonian. Congratulations on your impending anniversary. Talk to me a little bit about your career path. Did you always know you wanted to be in tech? Did you get into tech from a different field? What does that look like? >> Yeah, yes. I was always interested in technology. I was a electrical engineer in my undergrad and I pretty much quickly realized I didn't want to write code or, you know, design integrated circuits. There really wasn't an internet back then. I think the engineering students had emails but we emailed each other, nobody else had them. And I just got into a program actually at Intel and it was a technical sales program and so they recruited folks, engineering students, put us through some rotations and various um, reps. And then we rolled out to the field and I became a sales, technical sales person. >> Got it. So you were a EE from the start, kind of always knew you wanted to be in tech but then now as a sales leader, talk to me a little bit about that path and what are some of your recommendations for people that might be starting out in tech or interested and don't really know how to navigate their career? >> Yeah, I think, you know, I think for me I was a little bit of luck and timing and you know, some intelligence of picking the right path. And I think really just around your skill sets, right? And I had a technical background, I was a people person. Relationships and connections were something that were important to me. And really just figuring out kind of how to match your skill sets to what you, what you actually enjoy doing. You know, again, I wasn't looking for a career in sales leadership but it was definitely something I quickly embraced. You know, I enjoy developing people, working with our customers to help them solve their challenges and various technology companies I've worked for. And as far as navigating, I think having, I always tell people, do the best job you can in your current role and be looking at what you want next. Because I have a lot of people that come to me and say, I want to do this next. And I'm like, well, you have to really be doing excellent in what you're doing today, so that you get to have supporters and allies to help sponsor you in other, other things. >> Absolutely. Mentors and sponsors are so critical. Often when I ask people this question, they talk about things like, raise your hand, ask a question. Let me pay attention to your point about the things that you're interested in and start navigating a pathway that way. But also the importance of having mentors, having sponsors who you can share your ideas with, share your dreams with is also something that I think is quite helpful for those that are navigating maybe early in their tech careers or maybe they're midway through and there's a change they want to make but they just aren't aware of what else is out there. >> Sherry: Yep, absolutely. And I think I've been really lucky to have some great allies and mentors along the way. >> So you've had some great successes. I want to now kind of pivot to understanding some of the successes that you've had, where you've helped customers internally, externally solve problems where it's related to cloud. >> Yeah, I mean, yeah, so, you know, for 10 years I've been doing that, you know, early in my career, like I thought it was, most of our customers were startups and it was really a great place to be because AWS at the time, very early helped democratize access to the cloud, right? And so there were these startups who didn't have a lot of capital or people. And so it helped bring that flexibility and agility to startups that maybe, you know, most enterprises have the resources to do. And you know, and I, throughout my career, I've worked with really interesting companies. Right now I've just met with the CEO, Jill Stelfox at Panzura who really outlined, you know, why AWS is great and what, what it's helped, how it had helped them achieve things. And it's really, her thing is that AWS is really helps them build and deploy at scale so that they're able to reach their customer, you know, more broadly. And it really helps them with the backend functions like deploying products, you know, maintaining that security and these user controls that become part of the AWS solutions, so they don't have to worry about it. You know, I've had interesting startups that are embracing machine learning in various ways, right? They, I had an autonomous vehicle startup that uses the advanced driving, the assisted driving system to predict and, you know, whether it's, you know, changing lanes or helping, you know, automate those things and they want to make sure that they provide reliability to their car manufacturers. And there's many, many others, you know, in the healthcare industry that we've helped bring really, ultimately helping them deploy and so that they can innovate and bring market, bring products to market faster. >> That's what it's all about. Innovation, being able to bring products to market faster, being able to pivot quickly when change happens. I literally just today saw that interview that Jill did from Panzura on AWS and the relationship there. I've got a number of friends who've just starting their, their new jobs at Panzura. So it's so great to see just the tech ecosystem being so intertwined and interconnected. I love that so much. I want to understand now from your perspective, switching gears a bit, talking about diversity thought diversity, diversity of people, what, you know, we talk about this Sherry, so often intact DE&I is, it's a very prominent topic of conversation but there's still some challenges there. Talk to me about some of the things that you've seen with respect to diversity that are still challenges present and what are some of your recommendations for organizations to employ to get some of those challenges scraped out of the way? >> Yeah, I mean, I was an engineer and you know, (laughs) in the early nineties, engineering student in the early nineties. So I was the one of 10 females in my, in my, in my school, in my degree area. So, you know, being underrepresented was nothing new. And I wish that we weren't here talking about that, right? It's like, it doesn't matter if I'm a female tech leader, I'm just a tech leader, but we're not quite there yet, right? And, and I think maybe in the next generation can have that luxury and that we have to do that, you know, make that investment and effort today, so that we are helping the path. Now I tell people, you know, you have to, it takes time, right? You can't just go and say, "I'm going to hire a tech sales leader", right? And I started very early and developed my career there. So you have to invest and give yourself time to help develop, you know, underrepresented folks. And ultimately, I think you have to be intentional and you have to, you know, focus on, you know, maybe looking or having different criteria that maybe you haven't typically had, to bring that diverse perspective. Because if you're always looking for the same thing, that's what you'll get. And so I encourage my leaders at their hiring and recruiting to really, you know, look at one developing the pipeline of candidates, right? To bring on board, but also be open to, you know, the profile or the skill sets and things that they're looking for. >> You hit on three things there, Sherry, in all the interviews for this series that I've done, I'm hearing consistently where it comes to diversity, it's the investment that organizations need to make. It's the intention that organizations and leaders need to have and finding that talent. And it's the, the ability to be open-minded to looking for different thoughts, different skills, maybe going outside of the comfort zone to bring in diverse perspectives. So I love what you just said. It very much aligns with all the female leaders that we've been talking to in terms of this is what's needed next to make diversity, to actually bring diversity to life throughout organizations and not just have it as a talking point on an agenda. >> Yep, absolutely. And yeah, and honestly like I, my team is, I take pride in having a very diverse team. I have a very gender diverse team, and I would say it was intentional, but sometimes it's not. (laughs) So. >> Lisa: No, that's true. >> Right? And sometimes it's, you know, people gravitate towards, you know, female leaders, so they want to come work for me but also really it's just we have to create an environment where different people want to come in and feel like they can, you know, have a voice and contribute and grow, you know, in their career. >> Absolutely. People need to see what they can be, be able to feel that I'm going to be included in this conversation. I can raise my hand, I can ask a question. That's not a stupid question, it's probably a question that many other people in the room or on, on the virtual meeting have as well. So that, that ability to bring that diversity and that inclusion into roles whether it's we're talking about AI, machine learning, cloud is so important and it really will impact the direction that we go in. And so, for example, impact the direction that cloud goes in, in terms of how cloud's going to evolve, how your role is going to evolve. What are some of the things that you see there in terms of the next steps in cloud and in your role? >> Yeah, I think really, you know, in my role in dealing with various customers, I think succeeding with data in today's world really requires taking an end to end view. For organization today, people are drowning in their data and don't how to make, use it to make decisions. And we are, we are seeing an intersection of data and machine learning and analytics and databases. So I think we, um, all have to get, uh, smart about it and, you know, help our customers, you know, work their way through this journey. >> It is a journey and you know, every company these days has to be a data company. They've got to be a tech company, they have to be a software company, however you want to describe it but data is gold to an organization and I always think it's whether it's my grocery store or a retailer or a manufacturer or an automotive company, they have to be able to glean insights from data as quickly as possible to make business decisions that push their businesses forward. So that's one of the things that I love is that every company these days has to be a data company but they have to have the right tools, the right people, the right processes in place to be able to extract that value so that they can jump ahead of their competition. >> Exactly. And it's a competitive need. So I think that's, that's our job, that's our next, next big role is to help our, help our customers, you know, align that journey. >> Absolutely and be successful. Last question for you is if you look back over the last three to five years, what are some of the biggest changes in tech, in the tech workforce that you've seen and in innovation and what excites you about the direction that we're going in? >> Yeah, you know, I meet with startup founders and you know, you read their backgrounds or you get to know them and, you know, there were some engineering student at, you know, X, Y, Z and I was like, what if I were an engineer like five years ago? What could I have accomplished, right? So I am seeing this evolution of, you know, things or problems that are, smart people are solving whether it's machine learning like you said, whether it's biosciences. And so, you know, I'm really seeing things coming out of universities, like research things that are really coming to light and solving real world problems. So, so that's a big trend, right? When I, when I was a, you know, when I, in the, you know, years ago, I know you couldn't do much with, you know, satellite or telecommunications like you can with some of the topics that are coming out of school now. I'm also seeing investment in early talent. So, you know, companies that, you know, like you said, you, you know, you're finding really great experienced smart people. So you know, AWS, you know, on the sales and solution architect team, you know, we are investing in early, early talent, in early career talent. So, you know, and they're accomplishing great things. So I'm seeing companies like AWS embrace that a lot more. >> I love that, investing early in talent is so going to be so beneficial to companies in every industry. I'm excited, as are you, to see what happens in the future with that so much potential. So much potential. Sherry, thank you so much for joining me on the program today, talking about what your role is, what you're doing, how you've been helping organizations succeed with cloud, what you see coming down the road and your recommendations for organizations to be more diverse. We so appreciate your time and your insights. >> It was my pleasure. Thank you. >> Excellent. For Sherry Karamdashti, I'm Lisa Martin. You're watching theCUBE's Special Program Series: Women of the Cloud, brought to you by AWS. Thanks for watching. (soft music plays)

(upbeat music) >> Welcome to this special program series by theCUBE, "Women of the Cloud", brought to you by AWS. I'm your host, Lisa Martin. Very pleased to welcome my next guest, Tia Dubuisson, president, co-founder of Belle Fleur Technologies. Tia, welcome to the program. It's great to have you. >> Thank you so much, Lisa. I'm very happy to be here, thank you. >> Tell me a little bit about you, a little bit about Belle Fleur Technologies and your current role. >> Yeah, so myself, a little bit about me. I'm actually a former microbiologist, so we'll talk a little bit more about that and my journey into tech and shifting over into helping others, right? Belle Fleur technologies was birthed basically after I got a wake up call in the lab and saw that data was really going to be driving a lot of decision making, you know, in not so near future, which we're seeing now, and that was probably a good 11 years ago and you're seeing almost data driven everything or at least conversations about that now. So I have to say that was a good shift. And how we help customers, we're a consulting partner, and so helping them to make a journey that maybe I made on maybe more of an individual level to shift into you know, what does that look like? You have data but gaining the value out of it to actually make, you know, decisions. And so helping our customers to actually do the assessment around the type of data that they have taking them through a process all the way through to insights that they could then look at how can we monetize that is where we actually play and that is our specialty. >> Okay, my heart skipped a beat when you said you were a microbiologist because that's what I studied in undergrad. Oh my gosh, isn't that crazy? That's what we have in common. >> I'm super excited about that, yes. >> Yes, and I got segued into tech as well so we could chat for hours about that I'm sure of it. But, you know, you bring up such a great point, especially science being so data driven. Every industry is data driven. Every company has to be a data company and to help organizations really understand where their data is it's growing obviously continuously, exponentiation how to extract value from it is where a lot of organizations really struggle. So it sounds like that Belle Fleur comes in and really helps organizations to tackle that challenge so that they can extract value from the data that will give them that competitive advantage that they're looking for. >> Absolutely, absolutely, Lisa. >> So talk to me a little bit about your career path was zig-zaggy which I love, so is mine. What are some recommendations that you would have for others watching this program that are really looking to step that ladder in tech from a career perspective? >> Well, I think, you know if I pull from my own individual experience, I would definitely say when you have that aha moment, try to investigate a little bit more about that. I was blessed in the sense that I was married to a computer scientist, so I was able to go home and kind of tell him, hey, I just saw a demonstration that blew me away. We were doing drug discovery work, and we were going to be able to use a computer program to basically help us to narrow the focus of our drug discovery work to see which drugs would be most active before we even synthesized them. And so that was going to save us a lot of money, a lot of time. Drug discovery work is a guessing game, itty house. So if a computer can actually make a million different compounds in a month, I knew that was way more than me and the whole team could make at the bench and then order them by activity. So I came home and I told him that and he said, oh, in 10 years everything will be data driven, no doubt. And we started to have these conversations. And so then I started to then investigate a little more. I started taking courses, dusting off my Python, my R trying to see, you know, where else is data, you know, king. And basically it was everywhere. I wasn't seeing a lot of people at that time really using their data. There was really dark data still, right? They were collecting it but not really using it. And so I said, I think this is something I can help companies do. And I was really excited to really learn more about that. So I started to go learn, pick up certification. So then I'm starting to reinvest in myself. I would really highly advise you once you find that this is part of your passion. You know, find a mentor. I was, thankfully I was already married to a mentor, but there are other mentors and he wasn't my only mentor. There were others, right, to help you along this journey 'cause no one person rules, I think rules at all, right? When you're trying to make this journey and try to make this shift because it is complex, and so you want to make sure you have your tribe, right? That's going to get you there and you want to make sure that you can contribute to the tribe. So I always tried to find ways that I could actually contribute to different projects, right? Even if they're open, you know, projects, hackathons go to boot camps, a lot of them are free, some of them not so free but pretty close. And I think it's, you know, kind of lowers that bar to access where you can kind of take a little peek and you can even go to some that are, you know, driven from an area that you're interested in. If you're interested in healthcare, do a hack for good around healthcare. You know, try to get involved. You'll meet a lot of good people that I think will be very happy to help steward you along the way as you try to navigate these waters, 'cause there is no straight path, right? There is no A plus B gets you to C. You really kind of have to navigate those waters. But I would definitely say get the exposure, make a decision around your passion, meet, you know, nice people at boot camps, you know, workshops, hackathons and then go for some of those industry certifications. Do an do an online search, you know and find out what are the top 10 certifications that would help to support a role that you're looking for, right, in the area that you're passionate about. And then invest in yourself, study for it go for those things, make plans, right? And bounce those off of your mentor. I think they'll be very impressed that you laid out plans and you're actually meeting those goals. They'll be more inclined to actually invest back in you, as well. >> Absolutely, and I love how you said invest in yourself. You laid out some really great tactical recommendations and guidelines. There's very few paths do I come across in tech that have been linear. Most of them have been like yours and mine very zig-zaggy. But the most important thing is investing in yourself. And sometimes I'll hear people say things like create personal board of directors and that kind of reminded me of some of the things that you said, to have those mentors, have those sponsors. To your point, after you invest in you and have those folks invest in you as well. That's great advice, Tia. >> Awesome, thank you so much. Yeah, absolutely, we have to invest in each other. I think that that's the better together story here, right? >> I do too, it's got to be symbiotic. I'll bring up a a biology word for you, symbiotic. (laughs) >> (laughing) Yes, symbiotic. >> Yes, let's talk a little bit now about some of the specific projects where you've helped either internal customers or external customers solve problems related to cloud. >> Yeah, so I would say from an internal customer standpoint, that's what we call our employees, our our BFFs, right, our Belle Fleur friends. We want to make sure that we're investing in them just as much as we do our external customers. If you have happy internal customers, you're definitely without a shadow of a doubt going to be able to solution and really have happy external customers. So you got, you know, everything starts at home first, right? So far as you know, success stories, I would say from the internal customers is really looking at how to upscale and reskill not just junior talent but senior talent. Probably over the last two and a half years, we've been working very closely with a couple of non-profits, community colleges that now have cloud computing certificates that you can get, and also bachelor's degrees, and actually creating a talent pipeline, a playbook for a talent pipeline, to reskill and upskill, to make sure that people have the skill sets that are in market today. We were seeing that there was a gap between classroom and industry as we were trying to hire. And so we wanted to be a part of the narrative not just point out the problem. But how can we really dig in there? And so, it's been tested, tried and true this playbook over 300 different interns, as well as apprentices. So we're super excited to actually have a playbook that, you know, we're able to pull from that we're now sharing with our external customers. They are also struggling with the talent pipeline. They said, hey, you come and you build these solutions so, you know, internally we need to be reskilled and we need to be skilled up and how can we work alongside you and your team not just to build out the solution but for the longer term? How can we actually build out a bench that's healthy, right? That can keep up with the pace, right? That cutting edge pace of innovation and get right in there. And so it's been really great to work with a good majority of our customers are very quite interested in the how. They maybe don't have that playbook internally or that process internally, which tends to be a challenge. So I would say, so far as cloud computing, in addition to just solving, you know, technical problems that is something in parallel that you equally have to give a lot of respect to, right? >> Yeah, absolutely. Speaking of the talent pipeline, I want to get your thoughts on where we are with respect to diversity. We talk about DEI a lot in technology but there's still challenges there. What are some of those challenges that you see and how can organizations really correct those challenges to build a diverse talent pipeline? >> That's a great question. I would say the challenges, I would call 'em the three A's, access, acceleration, and acceptance. And I think what we found with just doing this journey in the last two and a half years really documenting what are those challenges and how can we, you know, iterate to kind of just get past those challenges and just blow right through the doors and say, hey, there's ways that we can introduce access. And so joining forces, like we said with those nonprofits and those community colleges that are already, I think we all have different pieces of the puzzle, and I think we're all trying to give different pieces of access, but how do we draw a thread through it? And I think that's what our playbook attempts to do. I mean because when we say in tech that is so vast and so even within tech we say, okay, within tech these are the areas where we play, right? We have a playbook around data and analytics and we're now working from (indistinct) machine learning. And so we're looking at individuals that are coming from backgrounds that maybe are not typical, right? Maybe not a computer science degree, maybe they're biologists, like ourselves, you know, maybe that's how they started. Maybe they're psychologists. We have a few psychologists on the team. We have accountants on the team. And so what happens is that we're able to go into these different groups that we're partnered with and actually showcase to them from an access standpoint, how is tech really intersecting. I don't like to use the word disrupting, but intersecting with, you know, the traditional accounting degree, with a traditional biology degree. Did you know that this was happening? You know, and try to peak their interests and if they're interested in learning more taking them through that process. A very similar process that I had to make that decision you know, over a decade ago to really, you know, look at ways to reskill myself. And so we've put together different programs with those nonprofits and the colleges and other partners as well to make sure that we're moving them along the way and the path of access, and then, you know, also giving, you know some acceleration around some of the different programs. Some of the colleges are giving scholarships, which is awesome, with some of their partners to accelerate some of the people through our program to actually get some of those skill sets that are very applicable. Helping them to understand how their psychology background actually plays a part in that. So really not using random examples but really examples from their traditional learning and saying, you know, this is how this applies in the tech world. And so then it really helps to lower that bar, right? You know, so that they can really, not only have access, but really accelerate because now it's applied. And so when you are able to then apply it, show them how it can be applied in other industries, right? Whether they're similar or not, we all have data and data takes a very similar path in an interesting way. So once they're able to dive in there and then the acceptance, so then making those partnerships with our customers and, you know, other industries that maybe don't have this talent pipeline but would like to have that. They partner with us for the pipeline and so making sure that either they land with us or with one of our customers where they can now showcase what they've learned. They can go in and be more, maybe more junior at those companies, but they're able to grow over a two year cycle with that company that has an agreement that they're actually going to nurture that talent and really, you know, invest back in people who have invested in themselves. >> I love what you just described as four A's. It's so intentional and I think that's what a lot of organizations miss with respect to diversity is it's not, and it's not done with intention and interest as it should be, but it sounds like what you've developed is a fantastic playbook to provide access, to provide that ability to accelerate, to be able to apply their skills. Really kudos to that because my cheeks were hurting from smiling with what you were describing. It's just, it's so needed. There's so much opportunity out there, especially for people who might be on a zig or a zag and not sure where what to do next. Showing them, giving them the access, showing them what they can do and how it applies to their industry with data that's where the world is going. So I love that, very exciting. Last couple questions for you as we wrap up our time here. What are some of the things that you see next in cloud that are evolving that excite you about where we're going? >> I'm super excited. It brings you back to the A's. I think that companies of all sorts, right, have already gotten a lot of access because they can build a, you know, they can build a not a server farm, but necessarily they can have the power of the same computing, right, as some of the larger enterprises, whether you're a startup or, you know, smaller, medium-sized business. So I'm super excited that it's going from, I think more of a solution conversation where you're a lot closer to the end goal even from the first assessment conversation and less of an infrastructure kind of conversation where you're talking about the different services around cloud computing and, you know, inside those. And so I'm super excited about that. I think, you'll see a lot of solutions being kind of more or less pre-baked ready for those buy versus build conversations. You'll still have to configure. You'll still have to integrate, but I think we're going to all live around the API. I see a lot of APIs, you know, driving some really great SaaS applications that are really then connecting data to everything. And then it's not just about having that data that can then be shared across the organization, but even organizational units across the enterprise can self-serve from those analytics and those insights instead of, you know, I think back on one of our customers, they were a manufacturer and really it was their accounting team that brought us in and they said, listen, we need to get insights during a manufacturing run to make decisions if we're profitable or not. Right now, we're manually trying to wrangle the data as accountants across different, you know, even different states, right, to get this information and we're not getting the insights, and we're scratching the surface 'cause we don't have that time until a month after it's already shipped. There's really at that point you can't make a decision. And so they really wanted to change that. They really wanted to look at profitability. They really wanted to look at how can we go back to just being accountants? Like we don't want to be data wranglers. >> Right. >> And I think a lot of our customers are in that boat. They don't want to manually wrangle data. How can you help us to at least make it to where it's more of a self-service, and we're consuming, not the data, but the insights, right? So we can be actionable on the insights. And that's what I'm super excited about, and that's what I think you'll see become easier and easier for companies to be able to do with cloud computing. >> Which is so exciting because the frontier is endless but as every company, whether it's a retailer, or a manufacturer, or a life sciences organization have to be a data company these days. There's no choice. You have to be able to serve customers 'cause of course we have the demand as consumers in our personal lives and our business lives. We want that data to deliver relevant content to us. And so organizations have to work with folks like you to be able to do that. Tia, it's been such a pleasure having you on the program. Thank you so much for giving us some of your time walking us through your interesting background and some of the great techniques that you're employing at your company to really help drive organizations to be successful with with the talent pipeline, with the cloud. We really appreciate your insights. >> Thank you so much, Lisa. Appreciate you, theCUBE, AWS as well, thank you. >> Yeah, you're very welcome. For Tia Dubuisson, I'm Lisa Martin. You're watching theCube's special program series, "Women of the Cloud", brought to you by AWS. Thanks for watching. (upbeat music)

(bright upbeat music) >> Hey everyone. Welcome to theCUBE Special Program series: Women of the Cloud brought to you by AWS. I'm your host for the series, Lisa Martin. Very pleased to welcome Kesha Williams, senior principal at Slalom who joins me next. Kesha, great to have you. Thank you so much for your time today. >> Thank you for having me Lisa. >> Tell me a little bit about you and your role at Slalom. >> Hi everyone. I've been in tech for 26 years working across several industries like the airline industry, healthcare, hospitality and several government agencies. I really built a solid foundation in the Java software engineering space. A few years ago I added on AWS in the cloud and I really haven't looked back since. Throughout my career, I realized that I had a heart to teach and mentor, and that's what really brought me to Slalom. I currently serve as a program director in our AWS Cloud Residency program, which is a career accelerator for cloud engineers. >> 26 years. So you've had some great experiences and talk along that journey. You've grown your career as well. I love that you have that heart for teaching and mentoring. I think that's fantastic. Talk about, for the audience, some of the tactical recommendations that you have for those watching to be able to follow in your footsteps and grow their careers in tech. >> Well, tech is a very broad category. I always recommend that people really figure out what they enjoy doing to help narrow that focus into a specific domain in technology. For example, do you enjoy coding? Then you would look to be a software engineer. Do you enjoy telling people what to do? Then you may enjoy technical project management, and there are so many disciplines. I also recommend for people just getting started in tech to really consider the cloud. There is a huge demand for cloud engineers and people that are cloud-literate and not enough people to fill that demand. If you're looking to start a career in the cloud, I always recommend starting with learning the foundations, so going after your AWS Certified Cloud Practitioner exam. And once you understand the foundations, then start to build that hands on experience and build that portfolio so that you can speak to what you've developed in the past. And once you have that understanding, start to think about your specialty area. Do you want to specialize in machine learning or security or networking, and then continue to go after those more advanced certifications? >> That is brilliant advice that you really walked the audience through very strategically. I love how you think about it in that sense. I'd love to get into now you've grown your career over 26 years, as you said, some of the success stories that you've had in cloud. Can you share a few of those with us that you think really demonstrate the value of that foundation that you've built? >> Sure. I think a lot about success stories that really hit home and the first one that comes to mind is Georgia State University. That hits home because I'm from Georgia. It also hits home because my son attended Georgia State University. And Slalom joined Georgia State to really help them adopt this serverless approach and implement DevOps practices, and what that brings with serverless, you're able to really think less about the infrastructure management, and focus on building solutions and capabilities in Georgia State's example, really helping students achieve what they're trying to achieve. And I think that just the serverless model helps organizations move faster and deliver faster and innovate faster, and that's what we saw at Georgia State University. I'm happy when I think about that project because now Georgia State is ranked as the fourth most innovative university in the country, and I believe it's because we were able to help them shift and move some of their key applications to the cloud and really realize the benefits of what the cloud brings. >> And so, I love that. The fourth most innovative university in the country. That's a pretty impressive pedigree to be able to have there and you've shown the value of that. There's value across the organization, right? Across the staff, the educators, the students, the prospective students, and of course they have such great technology foundation with which they can use to learn and grow. You've got a second great example at Securian. I'd love to hear that success story and how you really helped that organization transform itself. >> Right. Securian, that case study really speaks to me because I'm all about teaching and mentoring, and empowering people to really realize the benefits of the cloud, and we were able to do that at Securian. We came in and really helped them define their cloud strategy, define that adoption strategy, define how they're going to migrate their applications to the cloud, and then we worked right alongside them to help them do that migration. But as a part of that, we talked about talent development and really help them up level their skills to be able to maintain what we've developed from an ongoing long-term perspective. >> The talent focus, the demand for talent, your focus on that is it can be such a flywheel for organizations in terms of innovation, evolution, that in upskilling is something that every organization I think regardless of industry should be focused on. Talk to me a little bit more about the heart that you have for helping organizations to attract that talent, to retain that talent by being able to be embracing of technology in emerging technologies in their organization, and how does that help them attract talent? >> Well, when you think about the mindset of engineers and the people in tech, we always have this goal to be at the leading edge and keep our skills current and have an opportunity to experiment with the latest and greatest technologies. And there is a huge appetite for cloud engineering skills from an engineer perspective and just from a demand perspective in the industry. So when companies are utilizing these really leading edge technologies that have shifted how we build applications, how we support applications, it really attracts top talent. >> Absolutely, and that should be a focus of every organization. Speaking of talent, one of the things that is talked about tremendously in organizations is diversity. But talk to me about some of the things that you see from a diversity lens through your eyes and what are some of the challenges today? There's so much talk about it, but yet dot dot dot to be continued. >> Right, Right. I am super excited that there is a huge focus on diversity in tech. Like I mentioned before, I've been in tech for 26 years, and I remember when a lot of organizations didn't care about diversity. So I'm appreciative that now there's a huge focus. But with that, there's also a need and a desire to focus on what we call inclusion and equity. So we're seeing organizations hire diverse candidates, but when those people come in, they're not in an environment that's welcoming. They're not in an environment where they feel included. And so there can be a retention problem if there isn't a focus on also inclusion and equity, which I call the other side of diversity. >> Yeah, the other side of the coin there. That's a great point that inclusion and equity are so critical to that diversity piece. In fact, they're really kind of engines to help make it successful so that organizations can attract diverse talent, but also retain them, make them feel welcome. Talk to me about some of the commitments that Slalom has to really a DEI approach. >> Right. At Slalom, we work really hard to build a culture where employees can bring their a authentic selves to work and be authentic, and really enjoy equitable opportunities in a welcoming environment that celebrates authenticity. For example, our employees have access to a multitude of employee resource groups. Those types of groups, we call them ERGs, they really help with a sense of inclusion and a sense of belonging. When I think about the cloud residency, we do the same thing. We have a focus on diversity, so our leadership team is diverse, the residents in the program are diverse. So we have diversity from the bottom to the top. We also practice equity and inclusion in how we staff our residents on projects and how we make sure really I call it an even playing field for everyone, and really think about and understand some of the barriers that people face. And like I said, try to make it an even playing field. >> Wouldn't that be nice one day if there actually is an even playing field and we don't have to focus on this so much? That's kind of a nirvana, I think, for us to get to, but so much productivity comes when people are treated fairly. And to your point, I love that you said getting to be their authentic selves. I think that's what everybody wants in every walk of life, in every aspect of life. Let me being my authentic self and employer, I'm going to be far more productive as a result for you. I just think they're linked like this. >> I totally agree. Like you mentioned, it helps bring retention. And when people have that sense of belonging, that sense of inclusion and they know that the organization they work for really cares and values those those things. >> Speaking of authenticity, the organization needs to be authentic. That's a whole other conversation, Kesha, we could have I'm sure. But I want to ask you a final question. I can't believe you have 26 years experience in tech. Don't look at for one, but you have had- I appreciate that- >> such opportunities to grow and expand your career. You've left our audience with some fantastic strategic advice, tactical recommendations for how they can really climb that ladder. What do you see as next for the evolution in the cloud and where do you think your role is going to go? >> I definitely see this growing demand and need for machine learning. The use of how we're applying machine learning really in every area of life is just exploding. And I see just next this supercharged focus on truly democratizing machine learning and putting it in the hands of everyone: technical people, business people, non-technical people. And when I think about AWS and some of their newer services, it really seeks to do just that. And when I think about my role and in the Cloud Residency and how that role will evolve, it's just very important for me to lead the team to be intentional in building cloud engineers that can quickly jumpstart their machine learning journey to help fill that demand and better serve our clients. I also see my role really evolving into one that truly stays in line with the trends that we're seeing in the tech industry, and bringing those trends back and really preparing our cloud engineers to succeed. >> It's all about being intentional, intentional in DEI, intentional in cloud engineering, intentional in democratizing machine learning. Kesha, it's been such a pleasure to have you on the program, Women of Cloud. Thank you so much for sharing your insights and your advice with the audience. I know they appreciate it. >> Thank you for having me. >> My pleasure. For Kesha Williams, I'm Lisa Martin. You're watching this special CUBE program series, Women of the Cloud brought to you by AWS. We thank you so much for watching and we'll see you soon. (bright upbeat music)

(upbeat music) >> Hey, everyone. Welcome to theCUBE's Special Program Series: Women of the Cloud, brought to you by AWS. I'm your host, Lisa Martin. Very pleased to welcome Ashley Gaare to the program, Global Extended Executive Board Member and President, North America at SoftwareONE. Ashley, welcome, it's great to have you here. >> Hi Lisa, thank you for having me. I'm excited to be here. >> Talk to us a little bit about you, about SoftwareONE, about your role, give us that context. >> So SoftwareONE is a global services provider for end-to-end software cloud management. We operate in over 90 countries. Our headquarters globally are in Zurich, Switzerland. Our North American headquarters are in Milwaukee, Wisconsin. And I run the North American region with scales from the US, Canada, we have parts in Costa Rica, in Mexico. And our primary purpose and to serve our clients is to help them really understand the restraints in cloud management, everything from licensing used rights to financial operations to workload migrations, to help them drive better outcomes for their business. >> It's all about outcomes for the business. Every conversation we have always goes back to outcomes, but I want to learn a little bit more actually about you. Talk a little bit about your career path and then give us some recommendations that you would have for others who are looking to really kind of step the ladder in their tech careers. >> Yeah, so I've been very fortunate and blessed to be able to be at SoftwareONE for 15 years. So I came up through inside sales. I had no idea how the tech world operated, didn't even know what a server was. And I learned on the job, and this was before even cloud was really relevant. And I think for me, I get asked a lot, "How did you work your way up," so to speak, and it's really about understanding where your strengths sit and investing in those strengths, building a brand of yourself and what your identity is like within the workplace. What do you want people to know of you? Do they want to, "Oh, I got to get Ashley on this project because she accelerates and executes cleanly," right? Or, "I need Ashley to do this because she can collaborate with peers and bring people along." So really understanding where you want to sit, what your skills are, and your strengths, and then asking for mentorship, getting career advice, raising your hand, take on more, and don't ever be afraid to ask questions and admit stuff when you don't know, that humble is part of our core value within SoftwareONE, and it's really, really helped me grow in my own career. >> Ashley, I love that you talked about creating your own personal brand. Another thing that I hear often from women in this situation is creating your own personal board of directors, of mentors, and sponsors who can help guide you along that path. You also talk about investing in you, and I think that is such pertinent advice for those to be able to create success stories within their career. I would love to then know about some of the successes that you've had, where you've helped solve problems relating to cloud computing for organizations, internal, external. >> Yeah, it's a great question. That's why we're here, right? Women of the Cloud. Yeah, SoftwareONE in particular, took the approach early on that we were going to go cloud first in our services portfolio offering, right? We saw the writing on the wall. There was no reason to invest backwards and build (indistinct) and data center consulting practices. So for us, everything we built from the ground up has been cloud native. And so some of the amazing client stories that we've had are really I think, I know it's a silver lining coming out of the pandemic when you had industries hit so hard but hit so differently. And technology was at the core on how they address those problems. So you had the healthcare space that had to get protection and be able to meet with their patients face to face but virtual at the same time. So they had to be able to take the data and still governance with HIPAA laws, keep it secure but then move it to the cloud and shift it fast, right? And then you had manufacturing who had employees who had to stay on site, right? To keep the supply chain running, but at the same time you had office workers that had to move home and completely be 100% remote. And so what we've been able to do really with AWS and our certifications in that practice is AWS differentiates itself with its agility, its framework, it allows for true development in the the PaaS space. It provides a really, really secure robust end to end solution for our clients. And when you have to be able to be nimble that quickly it's created this new expectation in the industry that it could happen again. So are you set up for the next recession? Are you set up for the next pandemic? God willing, there isn't one, but you never know. And so investing in the right infrastructure there in the cloud is critical. And then having the framework, to manage it and go it is second in line and importance. >> Being able to be just aware of the situations that can happen. In hindsight, it's, that's a silver lining coming at a COVID cheer point, being able to prepare for disasters of different types or the need to establish business continuity. I mean, we saw so many organ, well every, almost that survived every surviving organization pivot to cloud during the last couple of years that had no choice to one, survive and two, to be able to be competitive in our organization. And so we've seen so many great stories of successes. And it sounds like SoftwareONE has really been at the forefront of enabling a lot of businesses, I would imagine. Can the industry be successful in that migration and that quick pivot to being competitive advantage competitively, competitive? >> Yeah. Yeah. And I think our differentiator which comes from our core strength of this licensing and asset financial management piece. So with COVID, right? When you had this great acceleration to the cloud whether it was remote workplace or it was IaaS you then had no choice but to pay what you had to pay. It was all about keeping the lights on and running the business and thriving as much as you could. And so cost wasn't a concern. And then you had the impact in certain industries where it became a concern pretty quick. And so now we're seeing this over pendulum kind of this pendulum swing back where it's like, okay we're in the cloud, now we got to go back in time and kind of fix the processes and the financial piece and the components and the compliance that we didn't really address or have time to sit and think because we were in survival mode. And that's where SoftwareONE really comes in with this end to end view on everything from what should you move to the cloud? How does it impact your budget, your bottom line should you capitalize it? Can you capitalize it? And so the CFO and the CEO and that CIO suite have to be working end to end on how to do this effectively, right? So that they can continue to thrive in the business and not just run in survival mode anymore. >> Absolutely, we're past that point of running in survival mode. We've got to be able to thrive to be able to be agile and nimble and flexible to develop new products, new services to get them to market faster than our competition. So much has changed in the last couple of years. I'm wondering what your perspective is on diversity. We've talked about it a lot in technology. We talk about DEI often. >> Yeah. >> A lot's gone on in the last couple of years thought there's so much value in thought diversity alone. But talk to me about some of the things that you're seeing through the diversity lens and what are some of the challenges that are still there that organizations need help to eradicate? >> Yeah, topic I'm very passionate about. So there's a couple of big bullets, right? That are big rocks that we have to move. There's a gender gap, we know this. There's a wage gap, we know this. Statistics state, essentially that women make 82 cents for every $1 a man makes. Men hold 75% of the US tech jobs and working mothers, for example. 34% of them do not return to the workforce. It's mind blowing, fun facts and SoftwareONE is we actually have a hundred percent return working mothers come back and stay for at least a year, yeah. And it requires really intentional investment in making sure that they have an environment that they can be successful as they transition back making diligent choices on the benefits that you provide those women so that they don't feel that they have to make some of the tough choices that they feel pressured to do. And then you have this talent shortage, right? So on top of gender, on top of pay, then you have this all up shortage of underrepresented groups, right? And you also have, in the tech space there's just a lack of talent all up. And I think looking back, hindsight's always 2020 but as a community and as a vertical in the tech space, the organizations didn't do enough good job of reaching into high schools, understanding early on in elementary and middle school to provide equal opportunity to make the computer coding classes a requirement and not an elective to give everybody exposure to how tech works in the real world, right? As opposed to offering it as an elective. It should be a requirement. I mean, it's like financial management. It's how the world runs today is on tech. So something that SoftwareONE has done to really address that is we built this academy it's only two years in its infancy, so it's young but we go intentionally to schools and we hand select and we create a program, right? To get them exposed to the industries that they're interested in. Personally though, I think we need to start way earlier on and I think that's something that we all can work better at and is exposing the next generation to setting an expectation that tech is going to be in your life. And so let's learn about it and not be afraid of it and turn it into a career, right? >> Absolutely, every company these days has to be a data company. They have to be a tug company whether it's your grocery store, a retailer, a manufacturer, a car dealer. So that kind of choice isn't really there anymore that's just the direction that these companies have to go in. You mentioned something that I love because I've been hearing it a lot from women in this series. And that is, with respect to diversity organizations need to be intentional. It has to be intentional, really from the get go. And it sounds like SoftwareONE has done a great job with intention about creating the program and looking at how can we go after and solve some of the challenges that we have today but really go after some of these younger groups who might not understand the impact and the influence that tech is having in their lives. >> Yeah, and the only way to be intentional with the right outcome is to ensure that you have diversity of thought in the leadership teams that make those decisions, right? So you can put your best foot forward in being intentional with trying to keep women in the workforce but if you don't have women on your leadership team where are you getting that feedback from? And so it starts by this getting the talent into the company at the very bottom level from an inclusion standpoint, keeping them, but also intentionally selecting the right diversity of thought at the leadership levels where they make decisions. Because that's where the magic happens Where, I have the privilege to be able to choose and work with my HR partner on what benefits we provide. And you have to have a team that's all inclusive in understanding the needs of all the groups, right? Otherwise you end up intentionally in with the best intent of heart creating benefits that don't really help women. I think it takes a lot of work and and time, but it's something that's very important. >> Very, very important. The fact that you mentioned thought diversity, the amount of value that can come from thought diversity alone is huge. I've seen so many different data points that talk about when there are females or people of color in the executive positions at organizations they are x percent say 20% more profitable. So the data is there to demonstrate the power and the business value that can come from thought diversity alone. >> Yep. Exactly. Yep. >> So moving on, we've got a couple minutes left. I want to understand what you are seeing in your crystal ball or maybe it's a magic ball about what's next in cloud. How do you see your role evolving in the industry? >> So, well, what I think what's next in cloud both from an industry and a SoftwareONE standpoint is expanding outside of this infrastructure as a service mindset where cloud was there to run your business. And the beauty of it now is that cloud is there to also drive your business and create new products and capabilities. And so one of the biggest trends we're seeing is all organizations at some form or at some point in time will become a service provider or have an application that they host that they provide to their clients, right? And so they're a tech company. And so it's not just using tech to run it's using tech to build and innovate and be able to create a profit center to be able to drive back those to meet your clients' needs. And in order for you to make the appropriate decisions on financial strategy and budget management you have to know the cost to go into, to building the product, right? And if you don't know the cost to go into the building the product then you don't know the profit margins to set and you don't have a strategy to go sell it, at market value. And so it really becomes this linchpin in all of the areas of the business where you're not only running but you're also developing and building. So you have to have a very good, strong investment in the financial operations component of cloud. And I think that's where FinOps is coming in. You'll hear that phrase a lot, right? And so the end to end ability to financially manage cloud while secure, but also with visibility is that is this next generation, and it's going to include SaaS, right? 'Cause they're going to be plugging in it's going to include governance because it's not just the CIO making decisions anymore. It's business line leaders. And so how do you have this cloud center of excellence to be able to provide the data to the decision makers so that they can drive the business? >> And that's what it's all about, is data being able to be be used, extracting insights from it in a fast real time manner to create those business decisions that help organizations to be successful to pivot when needed and to be able to meet consumer demand. Last question for you, Ashley is, if you think about in the last say five years what are some of the biggest changes in terms of the tech workforce and innovation that you've seen? And what excites you about the direction that we're going in? >> Oh, I think that, well I think the biggest change over the last five years is the criticality of the space. It used to be like, well we're not so mature in cloud. We'll eventually get there, we'll dabble in it, we'll dip our toes in it, eventually, we'll move everything. And it's like, well, we're there.(laughs) So if you're not in it, you're behind. And I think what is really important for people who want to get into this space is it doesn't mean you have to be super techy, right? The number of times people are like can you help me with my computer? And I'm like, "No, I don't even know how." Like, "No, I not can help you with your computer." I consult and I help drive, business decisions with clients. And so there's all these peripheral roles that people can get involved in, whether it's marketing or it's sales or it's product design. It's not just engineering anymore. And I think that's what's really exciting about what's to come in this space. >> The horizon is infinite. Ashley, thank you so much for joining me on the program, talking about your role, what you're doing at SoftwareONE, some of the great successes that you've had in the cloud and some of your recommendations for organizations and people to grow their careers and really increase diversity in tech. We so appreciate your time. >> Thank you, Lisa. Thanks for having me. >> My pleasure. For Ashley Gaare, I'm Lisa Martin. You're watching theCUBE special program series; Women of the Cloud, brought to you by AWS. Thanks so much for watching. (soft upbeat music)

(upbeat music) >> We're back with Charley Dublin. He's the Vice President of Product Management at Acquia. Great to see you, Charley welcome to theCUBE. >> Nice to meet you Dave. >> Acquia, tell us about the company. >> Sure, so Acquia is the largest and best provider of Drupal hosting capabilities. We rank number two in the digital experience platform space, just behind Adobe. Very strong business growing well and innovating every day. >> Drupal open source, super deep high quality content management system. And more experience, you call it an experience platform. >> An experience platform, open, flexible. We want our customers to have choice the ability to solve their problems how they want leveraging the power of the open source community. >> What were the big challenges? Just describe your, kind of the business drivers. We're going to talk about StormForge but the things that you were facing some of the challenges that's kind of led you to StormForge. >> Sure, so our objective first is to provide the best experience with Drupal. So that entails lots of capabilities around ease of use for Drupal itself. But that has to run on a world class platform. It has to be the most performance. It has to be the most secure. It needs to be flexible to enable customers to run Drupal however they want to run Drupal. And so that involves the ability to support thousands of different kinds of modules that come out of the community. We want our customers to have choice with Drupal and to be able to support those choices on our platform. >> So optionality is key. Sometimes that creates other challenges. Like you've got one of everything. How do you deal with that challenge? >> That's a great question. Every strength is a form of weakness. And so our objective is really first to provide that choice but to do it in a cost efficient way. So we try to provide reference architectures for customers, opinionation for our customers to standardize take out some of the complexity that they might have if everything were a snowflake. But our objective is really to support their needs and err on the side of that flexibility. >> So you guys had to go through a major replatforming effort around containers and Kubernetes can you talk about that and what role StormForge played? >> Sure, so tied to the last point, our objective is to provide customers the highest performance, most secure platform. The entire industry of course is moving to Kubernetes and leveraging containers. We are a large consumer of AWS Services and are undergoing a major replatforming away from Legacy AWS towards Kubernetes and containers. And so that major replatforming effort is intending to enable customers to run applications how they want to and the power of Kubernetes and containers is to support that. And so we looked at StormForge as a way for us to right size resource capacity to support our customer's applications. >> I love it, AWS is now Legacy. But Andy Jassy one time said that if they had to redo Amazon they'd it in Lambda using serverless and so, it's been around a long time now. Okay so what were the outcomes that you were seeking? Was it, better management, cost reduction and how'd that go? >> Our customers run a wide range of applications. We support customers leveraging Drupal in every industry. Globally we do business in 30 different countries. And so what you have is a very wide range of applications and consumer and consumption models. And so we felt that leveraging StormForge would put us in a position where we'd be able to right size resource to those different kinds of applications. Essentially let the platform align to how customers wanted to operate their applications. And so StormForge's capability in conjunction with Kubernetes and containers really puts us in a position where customers are able to get the performance that they want, and when they need it on demand. A lot of the auto scaling capabilities that you get from Kubernetes and containers supports that. And so it really enables customers to run their applications how they want to functionally, as well as from a performance perspective. >> So this move toward containers and microservices sort of modern application development coincides with a modern platform like StormForge. And so there are, I'm sure there are alternatives out there, why StormForge? Maybe you could explain a little bit more about why, from your perspective what it does and why you chose them. >> So we leverage AWS in many respects in terms of the underlying platform, but we are a very strong DIY for how that platform supports Drupal applications. We view our expertise as being the best of Drupal. And so we felt like for us to true really maximize Kubernetes and containers and the power of those underlying technologies. On the one hand allows us to automate more and do more for customers. On the other side of it, it puts a tremendous burden on the level of expertise in order to do that well for every customer every day at scale. And so that at scale part of that was the challenge. And so we leverage StormForge to enable us to rightsize applications for performance, provide us cost benefits, allocate what you need when you need it for our customers. And that at scale piece is a critical part. We could do elements of it internally. We tried to do elements of that internally, but as you start getting to scale from, a few apps to hundreds of apps to certainly across our fleet of tens of thousands of applications, you really need something that leverages machine learning. You really need a technology that's integrated well within AWS and StormForge provided that solution. >> Make sure I got this right. So it sounds like you sort of from a skill standpoint transitioned or applied your skills from turning knobs if you will, to automation and scale. >> Correct. >> And what was that like? Was the team leaning into that, loving it? Was it a, a challenging thing for you guys to get there? >> That's a good question. The benefit in the way that StormForge applies it. So they leverage machine learning to enable us to make better decisions. So we still have the control elements, but we have much greater insight into what that would mean ahead of time before customers would be affected. So we still have the knobs we need, but we're able to do it at scale. And then from the automation point, it allows us to focus our deep expertise on making Drupal and the core hosting platform capabilities awesome. Sort of the stuff and resource allocation resource consumption. That's an enabler we can outsource that to StormForge >> This is not batch it's, you're basically doing this in sort of near realtime Optimize Live, is the capability, maybe you can describe what it is. >> So Optimize Live is new, we're in testing with that. We've done extensive testing with StormForge on the core call it decision making logic that allows for the right sizing of consumption and resources for our customer application. So that has already been tested. So the core engine's been tested. Optimize Live allows us to do that in real time to make policy decisions across our fleet on what's the right trade off between performance cost, other parameters. Again, it informs our decision making and our management of our platform. That would be very, very difficult otherwise. Without StormForge we'd have to do massive data aggregation. We'd have to have machine learning and additional infrastructure to manage to derive this information, and, and, and. And that is not our core business. We don't want to be doing that. We want insights to manage our platform to enable customers and StormForge for provides that. >> So it's kind of human in the loop thing. Hey, here's what like our recommendation or here's some options that you might want to, here's a path that you want to go down, but it's not taking that action for you necessarily. You don't want that. You want to make sure that the experts are have a hand in it still, is that correct? >> Correct, you still want the experts to have a hand in it but you don't want them to have a hand in it on each individual app. You need that, that machine learning capability that insight that allows you to do that at scale. >> So if you had to step back and think about your relationship with StormForge what was the business impact of bringing them in? >> First, from a time to market perspective we're able to get to market with a higher performing more cost effective solution earlier. So there's that benefit. Second benefit to the earlier point is that we're able to make resource allocation decisions focused on where our core competency is, not into the guts of Kubernetes containers and the like. Third is that the machine learning talent that StormForge brings to the table is world class. I've run machine learning teams, data science teams and would put them in the top 1% of any team that I've worked with in terms of their expertise. The logic and decision making and insights is outstanding. So we can get to the best decision, the optimal decision much more quickly. And then when you accompany that with the newer product in Optimize Live with that automation component you mentioned, all the better. So we're able to make decisions quicker, get it implemented in our platform and realize the benefits. What customers get from that is much better performance of their applications. More real time, higher, able to scale more dynamically. What we get is resource efficiency and our network and platform efficiency. We're not over allocating a capacity that costs us more money than we should. We're under allocating capacity that could have a lower performance solution for our customers. >> So that puts money in your pocket and your customers are happier. So there are higher renewal rates, less churn, high air prices over time as you add more capabilities. >> That's correct. >> What's it like, new application approach, Kubernetes containers, fine. Okay I need a modern platform but it's a relatively new company StormForge. What's it like working with them? >> Their talent level is world class. I wasn't familiar with them when I joined Acquia came to know them and been very impressed. There's many other providers in the market that will speak to some similar capabilities and will make many claims. But from our assessment our view is that they're the right partner for us, they're the right size, they're flexible, excellent team. They've evolved their technology roadmap very quickly. They deliver on their promises and commits a very good team to work with. So I've been very impressed for such an early stage company to deliver and to support our business so rapidly. So I think that's a strength. And then I think again the quality that people that's been manifested in the product itself, it's a high quality product. I think it's unique to the market. >> So Napoleon Hill famous writer, thinker, he wrote "Think and Grow Rich." If you haven't read it, check it out. One of his concepts is this a lever, small lever can move a big rock. It can be very powerful. Do you see StormForge as having that kind of effect on your business that change on your business? >> I do. Like I said, I think the engagement with them has proven, and this isn't, debatable based on the results that we've had with them. We ran that team through the ringer to validate the technology. Again, we'd heard lots of promises from other companies. Ran that team through the ringer with extensive testing across many customers, large and small, many use cases, to really stress test their capabilities. And they came out well ahead of any metric we put forth even well ahead of claims that they had coming into the engagement. They exceeded that. And so that's why I'm here. Why I'm an advocate. Why I think they're an outstanding company with a tremendous amount of potential. >> Thinking about, what can you tell us about where you want to take the company and the partnership with StormForge. >> I think the main next step is for us to engage with StormForge to drive automation drive decisioning, as we expand and move more and more customers over to our new platform. We're going to uncover use cases, different challenges as we go. So I think the, it's a learning process for both both sides, but I think the it's been successful so far and has a lot potential. >> Sounds like you had a great business and a great new partnership. So thanks so much for coming on theCUBE, appreciate it. >> Thank you very much, appreciate your time. >> My pleasure. And thank you for watching theCUBE, you're global leader in enterprise tech coverage. (upbeat music)

>> Okay. We're back here. theCube and all the action here in Mobile World Congress, cloud city, I'm John ferry, host of the cube. We've got a great remote interviews. Of course, it's a hybrid event here in the cube. And of course, cloud city's bringing all the physical face-to-face and we're going to get the remote interviews. Peter Adderton, founder, chairman, CEO of Mobile X Global. Nicholas Gerrard, founder and CEO of OxyGo. Gentlemen, thank you for coming in remotely onto the cube here in the middle of cloud city. You missed Bon Jovi last night, he was awesome. The little acoustic unplugged and all the action. Thanks for coming on. >> Yeah, thanks for having us. >> All right, Peter and Nicholas, if you don't mind, just take a quick 30 seconds to set the table on what you guys do, your business and your focus here at Mobile World Congress. >> So I'll jump in quickly. Being the Australian, I'll go first, but just quick by way of background, I founded a company called Boost Mobile, which is one of the, is now the fourth largest mobile brand in, in America. And I spent a lot of time managing effort in that, in that space and now launching Mobile X, which is kind of the first cloud AI platform that we're going to build for mobile. >> Awesome. Nicholas. >> So I'm a founder of a company called, Ox Fuel where we do is basically a telecommunity service platform for brands to basically incorporate telecom as part of their services and learn from their customers through what we call a telecom business intelligence. So basically making sense of the telecom data to improve their business across retail, financial services or in-demand economy. >> Awesome. Well, thanks for the setup. Peter, I want to ask you first, if you don't mind, the business models in the telecom area is really becoming, not just operate, but build and build new software enabled software defined just cloud-based software. And this has been a change in mindset, not so much a change so much in the actual topologies per se, or the actual investments, but as a change in personnel. What's your take on this whole cloud powering the change in the future of telco? >> Well, I think you've got to look at where the telcos have come from in order to understand where they're going in the future. And where they've come from is basically using other people's technology to try to create a differentiation. And I think that that's the struggle that they're going to have. They talk about wanting to convert themselves from telcos into techcos. I just think it's a leap too far for the carriers to do that. So I think we're going to see, you know, them pushing 5G, which you see they're doing out there right now. Then they start talking about open rand and cloud and, and at the end of the day, all they want to do is basically sell you a plan, give you a phone attached to that and try to make as much money out of you as they possibly can. And they disguise that basically in the whole technology 5G open rand discussion, but they really, I don't think care. And at the end of the day, I don't think the consumers care, their model isn't built around technology. The model is built around selling your data and, and that's their fundamental principle and how they do that. And I've seen them go through from 2G, 3G, 4G, 5G. Every G we see come out has a promise of something new and incredible. But what we basically get is a data plan with the minutes. Right? >> Yeah, yeah I totally right on. And I think we're going to get into the whole edge piece of what that's going to open up when you start thinking about what, what the capabilities are and this new stakeholders who are going to have an interest in the trillions of dollars on the table right now, up for grabs. But Nicholas wanted to get to you on this whole digital-first thing, because one of the things we've been saying on theCube and interviewing folks and riffing on is: If digital drives more value and there's new use cases that are going to bring on, that's going to enabled by software. There's now new stakeholders coming and saying, Hey, you know what? I need more than just a pipe. I need more than just the network. I need to actually run healthcare. I need to run education on the edge. These are now industrial and consumer related use cases. I mean, this is software. This is where software and apps shine. So cloud native can enable that. So what's your take on the industry as they start to wake up and say, holy shit, this is going to be pretty massive when you look at what's coming. Not so much what's going to be replatformed, but what's coming. >> Yeah, no, I think it's a, it's where I kind join Peter on this. There's been pretty significant, heavy innovation on the carrier side for, you know, if you think about it 30 years or so of like just reselling plans effectively, which is a virtual slice of the network that built. And all of a sudden they started competing against, you know, the heavyweights on the internet. We had, putting the bar really high in terms of, you know, latency in terms of expectation, in terms of APIs, right? We've we've heard about telecom APIs for 15 years, right? It's- nothing comes close to what you could get if you start building on top of a Stripe or a Google. So I think, it's going to be hard for a lot of those companies. What we do with our show is we try to bridge that gap. Right, we try to build on top of their infrastructure to be able to expose modern APIs, to be able to open up a programmatic interface so that innovators like Peter's are able to actually really take the user experience forward and start, building those specialized businesses across healthcare, financial services, and whatnot. >> Yeah, David Blanca and I were on the, on theCube yesterday talking about how Snowflake, a company that basically sits on top of Amazon built almost nothing on the infrastructure. Built on top of it and was successful. Peter, this is a growth thing. One of the things I want to get your thoughts on is you've had experiences in growing companies. How do you look at the growth coming into this market, Peter, because you know, you got to have new opportunities coming in. It's a growth play too. It's not just take share from someone. It's net new capabilities. >> Yeah. Here's the issue you've got with the wireless industry is that there's only a very few amount of them that actually have that last mile covered. So if you're going to build something on top of it, you're going to have to deal with the carrier, and the carrier as out of like a duopoly slash monopoly, because without their access to their network, you're not going to be able to do these incredible things. So I think we've got a real challenge there where you're going to have to get the carriers to innovate. Now you've got the CEO of Deutsche Telekom coming out yesterday saying that the OTT players aren't paying their fair share. Right, and I sit back and go, well, hang on. You're selling data to customers who basically are using that data to use apps and OTT. And now he's saying, well, they should pay as well. So not only the consumer pay, but now the OTT players should pay. It's a mixed message. So what you're going to have to do, and what we're going to have to do as a, as a growth industry is we're going to have to allow it to grow. And the only way to do that is that the carriers are going to have to have better access, allow more access to their networks, as Nico said, let the APIs has become more available. I just think that that's a leap too far. So I think we're going to be handicapped in our growth based on these carriers. And it's going to take regulators and it's going to take innovation and consumers demanding carriers, do it, otherwise, you know, you're still going to deal with the three carriers in your world. >> Yeah, That's interesting about- I was just talking to Danielle Royce, the DR here at TelcoDR. And she said, I was talking about ORAN and there's more infrastructure than needed. She said, oh, it's more software. I don't disagree with her. I do agree with it. But I also think that the ORAN points to, Nicholas, kind of this idea that there's more surface area to be had on the scale side. So standardizing hardware creates a lower fixed cost, so you can get some cost reduction. And then with standardized software, you get more enablement for hardened openness. I mean, open source is already proven. You can still be secure. And obviously Cloud was once said, could never be secure and most, is probably more secure than anything. What's your take on this whole ORAN commodity standardization mission- efforts? >> I think it's a, I mean, it goes along to the second phase, right? Of what the differentiation in telecom was, you know. Early on, specialized boxes that are very expensive. You know, that you, you, you, you get from a few vendors, then you have the transition over to a software. We lower the price, as you were mentioning. It can run on off the shelf hardware. And then we're in the transition, which is what Danielle is, is evangelizing, right. Transition towards the cloud and specifically the public cloud, because there's no such thing as a private cloud really. And, and so up and running is just another, another piece where you can make the Legos connect better effectively and just have more flexibility. And generally the, the, the game here is to also break the agenda when you- from, from the vendors, right? Because now you have a standard, so you don't necessarily need to buy the entire stack from, from the same vendors. You have a lot more flexibility. You know, you've probably followed the same debate that we've all seen, right. With a push against Huawei, for instance. Th-this is extremely hard for an operator, to start ripping out an entire vendor, because most of the time, they, they own the entire stack. But something like ORAN, now you can start mixing and matching with different vendors, but generally this is also a trend that's going to accelerate the move towards the public cloud. >> That's awesome. Peter, I want to get your thoughts because you're basically building on the cloud. And if you don't mind chime it in to kind of end the segment on this one point. People are trying to really get their minds around what refactoring means. And we've been saying, and talking about, you know, the three phases of, of waking up to the world. Reset your business, or reboot. Replatform to the cloud, and then refactor, which means take advantage of cloud enabled things, whether it's AI and other things. But first get on the platform, understand the economics, and then replatform. So the question, Peter, we'll start with you. What does refactoring actually mean and look like in a successful future execution or playbook? Can you share your thoughts, because this is what people want to get to because that's where the value will come from. That's where the iteration gets you. What's your take on this refactoring? >> Yeah, yeah. So I always, I mean, we're in the consumer business, so I'm always about what is the difference going to make for the consumer? So, whether you're, and when you look at refactoring and you look at what's happening in the space. Is what is the difference that's going to, what are the consumers going to see that's different and are they willing to pay for that? And so we can strip away the technical layers and we all get caught up in the industry with these buzzwords and terms, and we get, and at the end of the day, when it moves to the consumer, the consumer just sits there and says, so what's the value? How much am I paying? And so what we're trying to do at MobileX is, we're trying to use the cloud and we're trying to use kind of innovation into create a better experience for the consumer. One way to do that is to basically help the customer, understand their usage patents. You know, right now today, they don't understand that. Right if I asked you how much you paid for your mobile bill, you will tell me my cell phone bill is $150, but I'm going to ask you the next question How much data do you use? You go, I don't know, right? >> John: unlimited. >> And then I'd say why am I started- well you'd say limited, right. I will go. I'd go, I don't know. So I sit back and go, most customers are like you. You're basically paying for a service that you have no clear, no idea what you're getting. And it's designed by the carriers to scare you into thinking you need it. So I think we've got to get away from the buzzwords that we use as an industry and just dumb that down to what, what does that mean for a consumer? And I think that the cloud is going to allow us to create some very unique ways for consumers to interact with their device and their usage of that device. And I think that that's the holy grail for me. >> Yeah. That's a great point. And it's worth calling out because I think if the cloud can get you a 10X value at, at a reduction in costs compared to the competition, that's one benefit that people will pay for. And the other one is just, Hey, that's really cool. I want I'll, I value that, that's a valuable thing. I'll pay for it. So it's interesting that the cloud scale there, it's just a good mindset. >> Yeah. So it's always, I always like say to people, you know, I've spoken a lot to the Dish guys about what open rand is going to do and I keep saying to them, so what's the value that I'm going to get from a consumer. And they'll say, oh it's flexible pricing plans. They're now starting to talk about, okay, what the end product is of this technology. You look at ECM, right? ECM has been around for a long time. It's only now that we're to see ECM technology, get enabled. The carriers fought that for a long, long time. So there's a monumental shift that needs to take place. And it's in the four or five carriers in our counties. >> Awesome. Nicholas, what's your take on refactoring? Obviously, you know, you've got APIs, you've got all this cool software enabled. How do you get to refactoring and how do you execute through that? >> I mean, it's a little bit of a, what Peter was saying as well, right? There's the, the advantage of that point is to be, you know, all our stuff basically lives in the cloud, right. So it's opportunity to, to get that closer, you know, just having better latency, making sure that, you know, you're not losing your, your photos and your data as you lose your phone and yep. Just bet- better access in general. I, I think ultimately like the, the push to the cloud right now is it's mostly just a cost reduction. The back tick, as far as the carriers are concerned, right. They don't necessarily see how they can build that break. And then from there start interacting with the rest of the OTT world and, and, you know, Netflix is built on Amazon and companies like that, right? Like, so as you're able to get closer as a carrier to that cloud where the data lives, this is also just empowering better digital experience. >> Yeah I think that's where the that's, the proof point will be there, as they say, that's where the rubber will meet the road or proof is in the pudding, whatever expression. Once they get to that cost reduction, if they can wake up to that, whoa we can actually do something better here and make m- or if they don't someone else will. Right. That's the whole point. So, final question as we wrap up, ecosystem changeover. Lot more ecosystem action. I mean, there's a lot of vendors here at Mobile Congress, but real quick, Peter, Nicholas, your take on the future of ecosystem around this new telco. Peter, we'll start with you. >> Yeah, I look, I mean, it, it, again, it keeps coming back to, to, to where I say that consumers have driven all the ecosystems that have ever existed. And when I say consumers also to IOT as well, right? So it's not just the B to C it's also B to B. So look to the consumer and look to the business to see what pain points you can solve. And that will create the ecosystems. None of us bet on Uber, none of us bet on Airbnb. Otherwise we'd all be a lot richer than we are today. So none of us took that platform- and by the way, we've been in mobile and wireless and any kind of that space smartphone space for a long time. And we will miss those applications. And if you ask a CEO today of a telco, what's the 5G killer application, that's going to send 5G into the next atmosphere, they can't answer the question. They'll talk about drones and robotic surgeries and all things that basically will never have any value to a consumer at the end of the day. So I think we've got to go back to the consumer and that's where my focus is and say, how do we make their lives better? And that will create the ecosystem. >> Yeah, I mean, they go for the low hanging fruit. Low latency and, and whatnot. But yeah, let's, it's going to be, it's going to be, we'll see what happens. Nicolas your take on ecosystems as they develop. A lot more integrations and not customization. What's your thoughts? >> Yeah, I think so too. I mean, I think going back to, you know, again like 20- 20 years ago, the network was the product conductivity to the product. Today it's a, it's a building block, right? Something that you integrate that's part of your experience. So the same way we're seeing like conversions between telecom and financial services. Right? You see a lot of telcos trying to be banks. Banks and fintechs trying to be telcos. It's, it's a blending of that, right? So it, at the end of the day, it's like, why, what is the experience? What is the above and beyond the conductivity? Because customers, at this point, it's just not differentiated based on conductivity, kind of become just a busy commodity. So even as you look at what Peter is building, right, this, what is the experience above and beyond just buying a plan that I get out of it, or if you are a media company, you know, how do I pair my content or resolve real problems? Like for instance, we work a lot to the NBA and TikTok. They get into markets where, you know, having a video product at the end and people not being well-connected, that's a problem, right? So it's an opportunity for them to bring the building block into their ecosystem and start offering solutions that are a different shape. >> Awesome. Gentlemen, thank you so much. Both of you, both experienced entrepreneurs and executives riding the wave on the right side of history, I believe. Thanks for coming on theCube, I appreciate it. >> Thanks for having us. >> If you're not riding the wave the right way, you're driftwood. And we're going to toss it back to the studio. Adam and the team, take it from here.

>>My name is Dave Volonte, and with me are two world class technologists, visionaries and entrepreneurs. And Wa Dodgeville is the he co founded Snowflake, and he's now the president of the product division. And Florian Duetto is the co founder and CEO of Data Aiko. Gentlemen, welcome to the Cube to first timers. Love it. >>Great to be here >>now, Florian you and Ben Wa You have a number of customers in common. And I have said many times on the Cube that you know, the first era of cloud was really about infrastructure, making it more agile, taking out costs. And the next generation of innovation is really coming from the application of machine intelligence to data with the cloud is really the scale platform. So is that premise your relevant to you? Do you buy that? And and why do you think snowflake and data ICU make a good match for customers? >>I think that because it's our values that are aligned when it's all about actually today allowing complexity for customers. So you close the gap or the democratizing access to data access to technology. It's not only about data data is important, but it's also about the impact of data. Who can you make the best out of data as fast as possible as easily as possible within an organization. And another value is about just the openness of the platform building the future together? Uh, I think a platform that is not just about the platform but also full ecosystem of partners around it, bringing the level off accessibility and flexibility you need for the 10 years away. >>Yeah, so that's key. But it's not just data. It's turning data into insights. Have been why you came out of the world of very powerful but highly complex databases. And we know we all know that you and the snowflake team you get very high marks for really radically simplifying customers lives. But can you talk specifically about the types of challenges that your customers air using snowflake to solve? >>Yeah, so So the really the challenge, you know, be four. Snowflake. I would say waas really? To put all the data, you know, in one place and run all the computers, all the workloads that you wanted to run, You know, against that data and off course, you know, existing legacy platforms. We're not able to support. You know that level of concurrency, Many workload. You know, we we talk about machine learning that a science that are engendering, you know, that our house big data were closed or running in one place didn't make sense at all. And therefore, you know what customers did is to create silos, silos of data everywhere, you know, with different system having a subset of the data. And of course, now you cannot analyze this data in one place. So, snowflake, we really solve that problem by creating a single, you know, architectural where you can put all the data in the cloud. So it's a really cloud native we really thought about You know how to solve that problem, how to create, you know, leverage, Cloud and the lessee cc off cloud to really put all the die in one place, but at the same time not run all workload at the same place. So each workload that runs in Snowflake that is dedicated, You know, computer resource is to run, and that makes it very Ajai, right? You know, Floyd and talk about, you know, data scientists having to run analysis, so they need you know a lot of compute resources, but only for, you know, a few hours on. Do you know, with snowflake they can run these new work lord at this workload to the system, get the compute resources that they need to run this workload. And when it's over, they can shut down. You know that their system, it will be automatically shut down. Therefore, they would not pay for the resources that they don't use. So it's a very Ajai system where you can do this, analyzes when you need, and you have all the power to run all this workload at the same time. >>Well, it's profound what you guys built to me. I mean, of course, everybody's trying to copy it now. It was like, remember that bringing the notion of bringing compute to the data and the Hadoop days, and I think that that Asai say everybody is sort of following your suit now are trying to Florian I gotta say the first data scientist I ever interviewed on the Cube was amazing. Hilary Mason, right after she started a bit Lee. And, you know, she made data science that sounds so compelling. But data science is hard. So same same question for you. What do you see is the biggest challenges for customers that they're facing with data science. >>The biggest challenge, from my perspective, is that owns you solve the issue of the data. Seidel with snowflake, you don't want to bring another Seidel, which would be a side off skills. Essentially, there is to the talent gap between the talented label of the market, or are it is to actually find recruits trained data scientist on what needs to be done. And so you need actually to simplify the access to technologies such as every organization can make it, whatever the talent, by bridging that gap and to get there, there is a need of actually breaking up the silos. And in a collaborative approach where technologists and business work together and actually put some their hands into those data projects together, >>it makes sense for flooring. Let's stay with you for a minute. If I can your observation spaces, you know it's pretty, pretty global, and and so you have a unique perspective on how companies around the world might be using data and data science. Are you seeing any trends may be differences between regions or maybe within different industries. What are you seeing? >>Yes. Yeah, definitely. I do see trends that are not geographic that much, but much more in terms of maturity of certain industries and certain sectors, which are that certain industries invested a lot in terms of data, data access, ability to start data in the last few years and no age, a level of maturity where they can invest more and get to the next steps. And it's really rely on the ability of certain medial certain organization actually to have built this long term strategy a few years ago and no start raping up the benefits. >>You know, a decade ago, Florian Hal Varian, we, you know, famously said that the sexy job in the next 10 years will be statisticians. And then everybody sort of change that to data scientists and then everybody. All the statisticians became data scientists, and they got a raise. But data science requires more than just statistics acumen. What what skills >>do >>you see as critical for the next generation of data science? >>Yeah, it's a good question because I think the first generation of the patient is became the licenses because they could done some pipe and quickly on be flexible. And I think that the skills or the next generation of data sentences will definitely be different. It will be first about being able to speak the language of the business, meaning, oh, you translate data inside predictive modeling all of this into actionable insight or business impact. And it would be about you collaborate with the rest of the business. It's not just a farce. You can build something off fast. You can do a notebook in python or your credit models off themselves. It's about, oh, you actually build this bridge with the business. And obviously those things are important. But we also has become the center of the fact that technology will evolve in the future. There will be new tools and technologies, and they will still need to keep this level of flexibility and get to understand quickly, quickly. What are the next tools they need to use the new languages or whatever to get there. >>As you look back on 2020 what are you thinking? What are you telling people as we head into next year? >>Yeah, I I think it's Zaveri interesting, right? We did this crisis, as has told us that the world really can change from one day to the next. And this has, you know, dramatic, you know, and perform the, you know, aspect. For example, companies all the sudden, you know, So their revenue line, you know, dropping. And they had to do less meat data. Some of the companies was the reverse, right? All the sudden, you know, they were online, like in stock out, for example, and their business, you know, completely, you know, change, you know, from one day to the other. So this GT off, You know, I, you know, adjusting the resource is that you have tow the task a need that can change, you know, using solution like snowflakes, you know, really has that. And we saw, you know, both in in our customers some customers from one day to the to do the next where, you know, growing like big time because they benefited, you know, from from from from co vid and their business benefited, but also, as you know, had to drop. And what is nice with with with cloud, it allows to, you know, I just compute resources toe, you know, to your business needs, you know, and really adjusted, you know, in our, uh, the the other aspect is is understanding what is happening, right? You need to analyze the we saw all these all our customers basically wanted to understand. What is that going to be the impact on my business? How can I adapt? How can I adjust? And and for that, they needed to analyze data. And, of course, a lot of data which are not necessarily data about, you know, their business, but also data from the outside. You know, for example, coffee data, You know, where is the States? You know, what is the impact? You know, geographic impact from covitz, You know, all the time and access to this data is critical. So this is, you know, the promise off the data crowd, right? You know, having one single place where you can put all the data off the world. So our customers, all the Children you know, started to consume the cov data from our that our marketplace and and we had the literally thousands of customers looking at this data analyzing this data, uh, to make good decisions So this agility and and and this, you know, adapt adapting, you know, from from one hour to the next is really critical. And that goes, you know, with data with crowding adjusting, resource is on and that's, you know, doesn't exist on premise. So So So indeed, I think the lesson learned is is we are living in a world which machines changing all the time and we have for understanding We have to adjust and and And that's why cloud, you know, somewhere it's great. >>Excellent. Thank you. You know the kid we like to talk about disruption, of course. Who doesn't on And also, I mean, you look at a I and and the impact that is beginning to have and kind of pre co vid. You look at some of the industries that were getting disrupted by, you know, we talked about digital transformation and you had on the one end of the spectrum industries like publishing which are highly disrupted or taxis. And you could say Okay, well, that's, you know, bits versus Adam, the old Negroponte thing. But then the flip side of that look at financial services that hadn't been dramatically disrupted. Certainly healthcare, which is ripe for disruption Defense. So the number number of industries that really hadn't leaned into digital transformation If it ain't broke, don't fix it. Not on my watch. There was this complacency and then, >>of >>course, co vid broke everything. So, florian, I wonder if you could comment? You know what industry or industries do you think you're gonna be most impacted by data science and what I call machine intelligence or a I in the coming years and decades? >>Honestly, I think it's all of them artist, most of them because for some industries, the impact is very visible because we're talking about brand new products, drones like cars or whatever that are very visible for us. But for others, we are talking about sport from changes in the way you operate as an organization, even if financial industry itself doesn't seems to be so impacted when you look it from the consumer side or the outside. In fact, internally, it's probably impacted just because the way you use data on developer for flexibility, you need the kind off cost gay you can get by leveraging the latest technologies is just enormous, and so it will actually transform the industry that also and overall, I think that 2020 is only a where, from the perspective of a I and analytics, we understood this idea of maturity and resilience, maturity, meaning that when you've got a crisis, you actually need data and ai more than before. You need to actually call the people from data in the room to take better decisions and look for a while and not background. And I think that's a very important learning from 2020 that will tell things about 2021 and the resilience it's like, Yeah, Data Analytics today is a function consuming every industries and is so important that it's something that needs to work. So the infrastructure is to work in frustration in super resilient. So probably not on prime on a fully and prime at some point and the kind of residence where you need to be able to plan for literally anything like no hypothesis in terms of behaviors can be taken for granted. And that's something that is new and which is just signaling that we're just getting to the next step for the analytics. >>I wonder, Benoit, if you have anything to add to that. I mean, I often wonder, you know, winter machine's gonna be able to make better diagnoses than doctors. Some people say already, you know? Well, the financial services traditional banks lose control of payment systems. Uh, you know what's gonna happen to big retail stores? I mean, maybe bring us home with maybe some of your final thoughts. >>Yeah, I would say, you know, I I don't see that as a negative, right? The human being will always be involved very closely, but the machine and the data can really have, you know, see, Coalition, you know, in the data that that would be impossible for for for human being alone, you know, you know, to to discover so So I think it's going to be a compliment, not a replacement on. Do you know everything that has made us you know faster, you know, doesn't mean that that we have less work to do. It means that we can doom or and and we have so much, you know, to do, uh, that that I would not be worried about, You know, the effect off being more efficient and and and better at at our you know, work. And indeed, you know, I fundamentally think that that data, you know, processing off images and doing, you know, I ai on on on these images and discovering, you know, patterns and and potentially flagging, you know, disease, where all year that then it was possible is going toe have a huge impact in in health care, Onda and And as as as Ryan was saying, every you know, every industry is going to be impacted by by that technology. So So, yeah, I'm very optimistic. >>Great guys. I wish we had more time. I gotta leave it there. But so thanks so much for coming on. The Cube was really a pleasure having you.

>> My name is Dave Vellante. And with me are two world-class technologists, visionaries and entrepreneurs. Benoit Dageville, he co-founded Snowflake and he's now the President of the Product Division, and Florian Douetteau is the Co-founder and CEO of Dataiku. Gentlemen, welcome to the cube to first timers, love it. >> Yup, great to be here. >> Now Florian you and Benoit, you have a number of customers in common, and I've said many times on theCUBE, that the first era of cloud was really about infrastructure, making it more agile, taking out costs. And the next generation of innovation, is really coming from the application of machine intelligence to data with the cloud, is really the scale platform. So is that premise relevant to you, do you buy that? And why do you think Snowflake, and Dataiku make a good match for customers? >> I think that because it's our values that aligned, when it gets all about actually today, and knowing complexity of our customers, so you close the gap. Where we need to commoditize the access to data, the access to technology, it's not only about data. Data is important, but it's also about the impacts of data. How can you make the best out of data as fast as possible, as easily as possible, within an organization. And another value is about just the openness of the platform, building a future together. Having a platform that is not just about the platform, but also for the ecosystem of partners around it, bringing the level of accessibility, and flexibility you need for the 10 years of that. >> Yeah, so that's key, that it's not just data. It's turning data into insights. Now Benoit, you came out of the world of very powerful, but highly complex databases. And we know we all know that you and the Snowflake team, you get very high marks for really radically simplifying customers' lives. But can you talk specifically about the types of challenges that your customers are using Snowflake to solve? >> Yeah, so the challenge before snowflake, I would say, was really to put all the data in one place, and run all the computes, all the workloads that you wanted to run against that data. And of course existing legacy platforms were not able to support that level of concurrency, many workload, we talk about machine learning, data science, data engineering, data warehouse, big data workloads, all running in one place didn't make sense at all. And therefore be what customers did this to create silos, silos of data everywhere, with different system, having a subset of the data. And of course now, you cannot analyze this data in one place. So Snowflake, we really solved that problem by creating a single architecture where you can put all the data into cloud. So it's a really cloud native. We really thought about how solve that problem, how to create, leverage cloud, and the elasticity of cloud to really put all the data in one place. But at the same time, not run all workload at the same place. So each workload that runs in Snowflake, at its dedicated compute resources to run. And that makes it agile, right? Florian talked about data scientist having to run analysis, so they need a lot of compute resources, but only for a few hours. And with Snowflake, they can run these new workload, add this workload to the system, get the compute resources that they need to run this workload. And then when it's over, they can shut down their system, it will automatically shut down. Therefore they would not pay for the resources that they don't use. So it's a very agile system, where you can do this analysis when you need, and you have all the power to run all these workload at the same time. >> Well, it's profound what you guys built. I mean to me, I mean of course everybody's trying to copy it now, it was like, I remember that bringing the notion of bringing compute to the data, in the Hadoop days. And I think that, as I say, everybody is sort of following your suit now or trying to. Florian, I got to say the first data scientist I ever interviewed on theCUBE, it was the amazing Hillary Mason, right after she started at Bitly, and she made data sciences sounds so compelling, but data science is a hard. So same question for you, what do you see as the biggest challenges for customers that they're facing with data science? >> The biggest challenge from my perspective, is that once you solve the issue of the data silo, with Snowflake, you don't want to bring another silo, which will be a silo of skills. And essentially, thanks to the talent gap, between the talent available to the markets, or are released to actually find recruits, train data scientists, and what needs to be done. And so you need actually to simplify the access to technologies such as, every organization can make it, whatever the talent, by bridging that gap. And to get there, there's a need of actually backing up the silos. Having a collaborative approach, where technologies and business work together, and actually all puts up their ends into those data projects together. >> It makes sense, Florain let's stay with you for a minute, if I can. Your observation space, it's pretty, pretty global. And so you have a unique perspective on how can companies around the world might be using data, and data science. Are you seeing any trends, maybe differences between regions, or maybe within different industries? What are you seeing? >> Yeah, definitely I do see trends that are not geographic, that much, but much more in terms of maturity of certain industries and certain sectors. Which are, that certain industries invested a lot, in terms of data, data access, ability to store data. As well as experience, and know region level of maturity, where they can invest more, and get to the next steps. And it's really relying on the ability of certain leaders, certain organizations, actually, to have built these long-term data strategy, a few years ago when no stats reaping of the benefits. >> A decade ago, Florian, Hal Varian famously said that the sexy job in the next 10 years will be statisticians. And then everybody sort of changed that to data scientist. And then everybody, all the statisticians became data scientists, and they got a raise. But data science requires more than just statistics acumen. What skills do you see as critical for the next generation of data science? >> Yeah, it's a great question because I think the first generation of data scientists, became data scientists because they could have done some Python quickly, and be flexible. And I think that the skills of the next generation of data scientists will definitely be different. It will be, first of all, being able to speak the language of the business, meaning how you translates data insight, predictive modeling, all of this into actionable insights of business impact. And it would be about how you collaborate with the rest of the business. It's not just how fast you can build something, how fast you can do a notebook in Python, or do predictive models of some sorts. It's about how you actually build this bridge with the business, and obviously those things are important, but we also must be cognizant of the fact that technology will evolve in the future. There will be new tools, new technologies, and they will still need to keep this level of flexibility to understand quickly what are the next tools they need to use a new languages, or whatever to get there. >> As you look back on 2020, what are you thinking? What are you telling people as we head into next year? >> Yeah, I think it's very interesting, right? This crises has told us that the world really can change from one day to the next. And this has dramatic and perform the aspects. For example companies all of a sudden, show their revenue line dropping, and they had to do less with data. And some other companies was the reverse, right? All of a sudden, they were online like Instacart, for example, and their business completely changed from one day to the other. So this agility of adjusting the resources that you have to do the task, and need that can change, using solution like Snowflake really helps that. Then we saw both in our customers. Some customers from one day to the next, were growing like big time, because they benefited from COVID, and their business benefited. But others had to drop. And what is nice with cloud, it allows you to adjust compute resources to your business needs, and really address it in house. The other aspect is understanding what happening, right? You need to analyze. We saw all our customers basically, wanted to understand what is the going to be the impact on my business? How can I adapt? How can I adjust? And for that, they needed to analyze data. And of course, a lot of data which are not necessarily data about their business, but also they are from the outside. For example, COVID data, where is the States, what is the impact, geographic impact on COVID, the time. And access to this data is critical. So this is the premise of the data cloud, right? Having one single place, where you can put all the data of the world. So our customer obviously then, started to consume the COVID data from that our data marketplace. And we had delete already thousand customers looking at this data, analyzing these data, and to make good decisions. So this agility and this, adapting from one hour to the next is really critical. And that goes with data, with cloud, with interesting resources, and that doesn't exist on premise. So indeed I think the lesson learned is we are living in a world, which is changing all the time, and we have to understand it. We have to adjust, and that's why cloud some ways is great. >> Excellent thank you. In theCUBE we like to talk about disruption, of course, who doesn't? And also, I mean, you look at AI, and the impact that it's beginning to have, and kind of pre-COVID. You look at some of the industries that were getting disrupted by, everyone talks about digital transformation. And you had on the one end of the spectrum, industries like publishing, which are highly disrupted, or taxis. And you can say, okay, well that's Bits versus Adam, the old Negroponte thing. But then the flip side of, you say look at financial services that hadn't been dramatically disrupted, certainly healthcare, which is ripe for disruption, defense. So there a number of industries that really hadn't leaned into digital transformation, if it ain't broke, don't fix it. Not on my watch. There was this complacency. And then of course COVID broke everything. So Florian I wonder if you could comment, what industry or industries do you think are going to be most impacted by data science, and what I call machine intelligence, or AI, in the coming years and decade? >> Honestly, I think it's all of them, or at least most of them, because for some industries, the impact is very visible, because we have talking about brand new products, drones, flying cars, or whatever that are very visible for us. But for others, we are talking about a part from changes in the way you operate as an organization. Even if financial industry itself doesn't seem to be so impacted, when you look at it from the consumer side, or the outside insights in Germany, it's probably impacted just because the way you use data (mumbles) for flexibility you need. Is there kind of the cost gain you can get by leveraging the latest technologies, is just the numbers. And so it's will actually comes from the industry that also. And overall, I think that 2020, is a year where, from the perspective of AI and analytics, we understood this idea of maturity and resilience, maturity meaning that when you've got to crisis you actually need data and AI more than before, you need to actually call the people from data in the room to take better decisions, and look for one and a backlog. And I think that's a very important learning from 2020, that will tell things about 2021. And the resilience, it's like, data analytics today is a function transforming every industries, and is so important that it's something that needs to work. So the infrastructure needs to work, the infrastructure needs to be super resilient, so probably not on prem or not fully on prem, at some point. And the kind of resilience where you need to be able to blend for literally anything, like no hypothesis in terms of BLOs, can be taken for granted. And that's something that is new, and which is just signaling that we are just getting to a next step for data analytics. >> I wonder Benoir if you have anything to add to that. I mean, I often wonder, when are machines going to be able to make better diagnoses than doctors, some people say already. Will the financial services, traditional banks lose control of payment systems? What's going to happen to big retail stores? I mean, maybe bring us home with maybe some of your finals thoughts. >> Yeah, I would say I don't see that as a negative, right? The human being will always be involved very closely, but then the machine, and the data can really help, see correlation in the data that would be impossible for human being alone to discover. So I think it's going to be a compliment not a replacement. And everything that has made us faster, doesn't mean that we have less work to do. It means that we can do more. And we have so much to do, that I will not be worried about the effect of being more efficient, and bare at our work. And indeed, I fundamentally think that data, processing of images, and doing AI on these images, and discovering patterns, and potentially flagging disease way earlier than it was possible. It is going to have a huge impact in health care. And as Florian was saying, every industry is going to be impacted by that technology. So, yeah, I'm very optimistic. >> Great, guys, I wish we had more time. I've got to leave it there, but so thanks so much for coming on theCUBE. It was really a pleasure having you.

>> Live, from Barcelona, Spain, it's theCUBE, covering KubeCon CloudNativeCon Europe 2019. Brought to you by Red Hat, the CloudNative computing foundation and ecosystem partners. >> Welcome back to theCUBE here in Barcelona, Spain. It's KubeCon CloudNativeCon 2019, I'm Stu Miniman, and my cohost for two days wall-to-wall coverage is Corey Quinn. And we're always thrilled when we get to speak to a user, and not just any user but Fernando Alvarez, who is a cloud architect at X by Orange. Fernando, muchas gracias for joining us, Sir. >> It's a pleasure. >> So Orange, we are familiar and many people are. X by Orange though, maybe you could explain to our audience a little bit what this group is, inside of a large global brand. >> X by Orange is a subsidiary from Orange Spain, and from a Orange telecom group in France, and what we try to do is to reinvent the way that telco companies operates. Going more natural of a way than the traditional way. So it's more or less what we're trying to do, and we started operations in September of last year, just with a different proposal, to see if it could make it viable for the small and medium businesses in Spain. >> Yeah, so digital transformation, you know, many people talk about it, but I've had some really good conversations with customers in the last year or so. Data is so important to businesses these days. Being data-driven, and being software at the core of what you do. So, it's sometimes overstated that every company will be a software company some time in the future. But you have done these transformations before, and that's what brought you into X by Orange. So, tell us a little a bit, your role as a cloud architect, what's your mission and what's your role in the org? >> Well, my mission is to make all the different pieces inside the whole IT stack to work together, especially in a cloud environment. So from the designing from the whole ecosystem that supports the platform, and at the same time supports the whole company as a tech operator, or multiple tech operators. What my role is to make sure that everything fits together. We're trying to accomplish it and we're very happy to have it in a cloud environment, in public cloud and using Kubernetes, as our continuing orchestration engine. >> So, can you lay out are you in one public cloud? Many public clouds, data centers? What is your-- >> We are now in one public cloud in AWS but having this cloud orchestration layer allows us to move to, or to go multicloud or hybrid cloud as soon as we want to do it. But I think that we have to keep it simple from the beginning. Having a tight schedule to start operations is key to (stuttering) have our value proposal into the market and to do so we have to do it in a simple way so going first in one public cloud, going public cloud first because it's not a logical movement in a big company even though we are in Spain now but normally, big enterprises want to do in their own way in a private data center so what we want is to be very fast and to do so the election is clearly logical to go public cloud and to have an orchestration engine like Kubernetes to do everything, no? >> Do you find that making decisions that enable portability in the future if you want to move to alternate clouds or go hybrid, is in any way constraining what you're able to do or the speed you're able to innovate with? >> Yeah, but I think benefits are way better than the drawbacks of that. Normally every single decision you have to make about the architecture of NEPs, one of the key aspects is to see if it involves vendor blocking for any of the components on the stack for example in the public cloud. But I think it's worth the effort because most things that you can design as an engineer or as an architect can be solved not only using (stuttering) A specific solution from a specific cloud provider but using a more generic way. In this way then you can assure that you can move more or less easier to other cloud or to other infrastructure. >> All right, so I guess it begs the question, you said it's AWS today and Kubernetes, it's OpenShift yes? >> Yes. >> That is the, the Kubernetes platform? How did you come about choosing that and you know, obviously Red Hat, one of their strengths is working in lots of different environments so as you go to that hybrided multicloud was that the driver for them? Or were you a Red Hat customer? How did you end up with OpenShift? >> Yeah, that was one of the drivers. And the other was the support for the platform. We were in a really tight schedule and we knew Kubernetes well enough but we weren't sure if our knowledge were enough to be in operations in only nine months. So for that we get Red Hat on board, to have all their knowledge in terms of support and the professional services to help us to define how to do things with their platform on OpenShift and because OpenShift is like Kubernetes distribution we were sure enough that we share the Kubernetes way of doing things so that for us was a logical election. >> What was it that drove your move to the public cloud in the first place? And I guess your entire digital transformation by extension? >> Did you say what, sorry? >> What drove your entire decision to first go to the public cloud and secondly, to go I guess as part of your larger digital transformation? >> The main reason probably was the speed. At the beginning the whole company was started thinking that we were going to build our platform on a private cloud, but once we made the numbers and see that that needed one more year to start operations, with zero value to the customer, the decision was pretty easy. Let's go public cloud and let's think about this, if it really adds value in the future. >> All right. So Fernando if I heard you right you said nine months from you know, >> Yeah. >> when you went to deployment. Big companies aren't necessarily known for their speed of change. >> (laughing) Yeah. >> Talk a little bit about the organizational dynamics. How much internal ramp up there was versus relying on your partners and your vendors to be able to help you meet those schedules. >> The good news is that we had the full Orange support to start a new company and we started as a separate company recently because we wanted to be very fast. So instead of having all the processes from the big company to do something that maybe it will fail, or maybe it will affect the brand, we decided to start a new company from scratch, with Orange in its name because we have all the (stuttering) well-known, All the brand is well-known in the world, but at the same time we wanted to start from scratch. That's why we started with a little people, with most of them were coming from, some were industry instead of the telco industry and we started to build from scratch the whole company and that we were 20 in February 2018 and now we are more than 200 and we started operations in nine months from January 2018. So I think it was a really completely success in terms of speed. >> If you were going to do it all again starting over, what would you do differently? >> That's a really good question. Probably I will put even more effort in transmitting the right culture because when you grow a lot you have to be very carefully in transmitting the right culture to the new commerce. Because it's very easy to let dissipate the culture that you create at the beginning when you are only 10 or 20 people and it's very difficult to maintain it when you are 200. And then if you are 200 with a wrong culture you are transforming yourself in a big company with a small revenue so, that's something that needs to be taken into account. >> Okay, so what's the road map from here? Does the 200 then help infuse into the rest of the company? How do things work going forward? >> Well, what are we doing now is to, we build up a completely new IT stack, that was from the beginning multi tenant to host multiple telco operators and now we are hosting our second telco operator. That's Orange Spain branch for small and medium enterprises, that is now coming to our stack, so this is in our run up for this year, what we are doing is integrating all the stack from Orange Spain to the new one. And at the same time, trying to complete our portfolio with new products. And these new products could be managed and commercialized by X by Orange as a telco provider and also by Orange Spain as another telco provider. >> Right. When people look this show there are so many projects going on and so many different pieces. We sometimes hear "There's a lot of choices, how do I make them?" How did X by Orange, how did you figure out what pieces of the stack was Red Hat, mostly prescriptive as to how you do, or were you choosing the service mesh and all the other various pieces and what can you tell us about your stack? >> Well what I can tell you is that we put a lot of effort on designing the stack by ourselves, not having any turnkey solutions, because we think that this is key for the success of the company. Because normally telco operators put a lot of effort in their core network but they don't put so much effort in the software technology, but now things are changing a lot and we really think that the software layer is as much as important as it was the network. And here is the real perceived value from the customer now resides in the software pack, so we designed each part individually and we selected the right partners for starting the development of each part and then make altogether to work. Instead of going of a full stack provided by a unique company. >> Perfect. As you've gone down this path have you started to look down the serverless environment at all? Or are you strictly in a more container based approach? Let me broaden that a bit. Are you looking into functions as a service and other serverless technologies? Or are you mostly keeping it to more commonplace things that are half a step back? >> Well, in telco industry what is traditionally the vendor, the traditional vendor for the telco industry are the network vendors that are more in their way of virtualization instead of their continuation on not even to mention the deploying serverless. So we are putting a lot of effort on making them to understand and some of them they are understanding it really, really well, that it's key to have their products be able to make an extreme automation. So it's a pity that we don't have enough time (stuttering) to use technologies like serverless. We use them for little operations in our internal stack but we are not at the point of using it in products that we have because what we are doing is trying to, for example, to move the management part of the network services to the containers and now our efforts are in that place. >> And to be very clear, that's absolutely the right answer. You have to meet your customers where they are with things that are appropriate fits for the problems that they have. And average gating for a technology stack because, oh, it seemed like the right answer when I polled a bunch of people on stack overflow or something, is never the right answer to solve those problems, unless "How do I make people "on stack overflow happy?" is the question. Spoiler, you can't. >> Yeah, that's completely true, yeah. >> So Fernando one last question I had for you is here at a big show, what are you looking to get out of the show? What excited you to bring you to the event? And any other things around your experience so far, what you're hoping to do that you could share? >> I think that the most important thing when we're talking about the internal structural transformation for any sized company is the people and the mentality of the people. So I can never say enough times that we really need to invest time with people to embrace the change, to embrace the kind of culture that is behind... The CloudNative mentality because if not, if we don't do so, what we are doing is just transporting our old stack to a new technology without changing anything. So put in that effort, talk with people, make this change happen together with people that is working already in big companies is key for the success of any story. >> All right, well Fernando Alvarez, really appreciate you sharing your story. Congratulations on the progress so far. >> Thank you very much. >> And best of luck in the future. >> Thank you. >> All right. For Corey Quinn, I'm Stu Miniman. We'll be back with lots more. Thank you for watching theCUBE. (upbeat techno music)

>> Live from New York, it's theCUBE. Covering theCUBE New York City 2018. Brought to you by Silicon Angle Media and its ecosystem partners. >> Hi, welcome back. I'm your host Sonia Tagare with my cohost Dave Vellante, and we're here at theCUBE NYC covering everything big data, AI, and the cloud. And this week is also New York Fashion Week, and with us today we have a guest who intersects both of those technologies, so Billie Whitehouse, CEO of Wearable X, thank you so much for being on. >> It's a pleasure, thank you for having me. >> Great to see you. >> Thank you. >> So your company Wearable X, which intersects fashion and technology, tell us more about that. >> So Wearable X started five years ago. And we started by building clothes that had integrated haptic feedback, which is just vibrational feedback on the body. And we really believe that we can empower clothing with technology to do far more than it ever has for you before, and to really give you control back of your life. >> That's amazing. So can you tell us more about the haptic, how it works and what the technology is about? >> Absolutely. So the haptics are integrated with accelerometers and they're paired through conductive pathways around the body, and specifically this is built for yoga in a line called NadiX. And Nadi is spelled N-A-D-I. I know that I have a funny accent so sometimes it helps to spell things out. They connect and understand your body orientation and then from understanding your body orientation we pair that back with your smartphone and then the app guides you with audio, how to move into each yoga pose, step by step. And at the end we ask you to address whether you made it into the pose or not by reading the accelerometer values, and then we give you vibrational feedback where to focus. >> And the accelerometer is what exactly? It's just a tiny device... Does it protrude or is it just...? >> I mean it's as invisibly integrated as we can get it so that we can make it washable and tumble-dryable. >> So I know I rented a car recently, big SUV with the family and when I started backing up or when I get close to another car, it started vibrating. So is it that kind of sensation? It was sort of a weird warning but then after a while I got used to it. It was kind of training me. Is that-- >> Precisely. >> Sort of the same thing? And it's just the pants or the leggings, or is it the top as well? >> So it's built in through the ankles, behind the knees and in the hip of the yoga pants, and then we will release upper body work as well. >> Alright, so let's double click on this. So if I'm in a crescent pose and I'm leaning too far forward, will it sort of correct me or hit me in the calf and say, "Put your heel down," or how would that work? >> Exactly. So the audio instructions will give you exactly the kind of instructions you would get if you were in a class. And then similarly to what you would get if you had a personal instructor, the vibrations will show you where to isolate and where to ground down, or where to lift up, or where to rotate, and then at the end of the pose, the accelerometer values are read and we understand whether you made it into the pose or whether you didn't quite get there, and whether you're overextended or not. And then we ask you to either go back and work on the pose again or move forward and move on to the next pose. >> That is amazing. I usually have to ask my daughters or my wife, "Is this right?" And then they'll just shake their heads. Now what do you do with the data? Do you collect the data and can I review and improve, feed it back? How does that all work? >> So the base level membership, which is free, is you don't see your progress tracking as yet. But we're about to release our membership, where you pay $10 a month, and with that you get progress tracking as a customer. Us on the back end, we can see how often people make it into particular poses. We can also see which ones they don't make it into very well, but we don't necessarily share that. >> And so presumably it tracks other things besides, like frequency, duration of the yoga? >> Exactly. Minutes of yoga, precisely right. >> Different body parts, or not necessarily? >> So the accelerometers are just giving us an individual value, and then we determine what pose you're in, so I don't know what you mean by different body parts? >> In other words, which parts of my body I'm working out or maybe need to work on? >> Oh precisely. Yeah if you're overextending a particular knee or an ankle, we can eventually tell you that very detailed. >> And how long have you been doing this? >> It's five years. >> Okay. And so what have you learned so far from all this data that you've collected? >> Well I mean, I'm going to start from a human learning first, and then I'll give you the data learnings. The human learning for me is equally as interesting. The language on the body and how people respond to vibration was learning number one. And we even did tests many years ago with a particular product, an upper body product, with kids, so aged between eight and 13, and I played a game of memory with them to see if they could learn and understand different vibrational sequences and what they meant. And it was astounding. They would get it every single time without fail. They would understand what the vibrations meant and they would remember it. For us, we are then trying to replicate that for yoga. And that has been a really interesting learning, to see how people need and understand and want to have audio cues with their vibrational feedback. From a data perspective, the biggest learning for us is that people are actually spending between 13 to 18 minutes inside the app. So they don't necessarily want an hour and a half class, which is what we originally thought. They want short, quick, easy-to-digest kind of flows. And that for me was very much a learning. They're also using it at really interesting times of the day. So it's before seven AM, in the middle of the day between 11 and three, and then after nine PM. And that just so happens to be when studios are shut. So it makes sense that they want to use something that's quick and easy for them, whether it's early morning when they have a big, full day, or late night 'cause they need to relax. >> Sounds like such a great social impact. Can you tell us more about why you decided to make this? >> Yeah, for me there was a personal problem. I was paying an extraordinary amount to go to classes, I was often in a class with another 50 people and not really getting any of the attention that I guess I thought I deserved, so I was frustrated. I was frustrated that I was paying so much money to go into class and not getting the attention, had been working with haptic feedback for quite some time at that point, realized that there was this language on the body that was being really underutilized, and then had this opportunity to start looking at how we could do it for yoga. Don't get me wrong, I had several engineers tell me this wasn't possible about three and a half years ago, and look at us now, we're shipping product and we're in retail and it's all working, but it took some time. >> So you're not an engineer, I take it? >> I am not an engineer. >> You certainly don't dress like an engineer, but you never know. What's your background? >> My background is in design. And I truly think that design, for us, has always come first. And I hope that it continues to be that way. I believe that designers have an ability to solve problems in, dare I say, in a horizontal way. We can understand pockets of things that are going on, whether it's the problem, whether it's ways to solve the solutions, and we can combine the two. It's not just about individual problem solving on a minute level; it's very much a macro view. And I hope that more and more designers go into this space because I truly believe that they have an ability to solve really interesting problems by asking empathetic questions. >> And how does the tech work? I mean, what do you need besides the clothing and the accelerometers to make this work? >> So we have a little device called the pulse. And the pulse has our Bluetooth module and our battery and our PCB, and that clips just behind the left knee. Now that's also the one spot on the body that during yoga doesn't get in the way, and we have tested that on every body shape you can imagine across five different continents, because we wanted to make sure that the algorithms that we built to understand the poses were going to be fair for everybody. So in doing that, that little pulse, you un-clip when you want to wash and dry. >> And is that connected to the app as well? >> Exactly, that's connected via Bluetooth to your app. >> That's great. So you have all your data in your hand and you know exactly what kind of yoga poses you're doing, where you need to strengthen up. >> Exactly. >> That's great. >> And is it a full program? In other words, are there different yoga programs I can do, or am I on my own for that? How does that work? >> So with the base level membership, you can choose different yoga instructors around New York that you'd like to follow, and then you can get progress tracking, you can get recommendations, and they are timed between that 10 to 20 minutes. If you want to pay the slightly more premium membership, you can actually build your own playlists, and that's something that our customers have said they're really interested in. It means that you can build a sequence of poses that is really defined by you, that is good for your body. So that means instead of going to a class where you end up getting a terrible teacher, or music that you don't like, you can actually build your own class and then share that with your friends as well. >> Is it a Spotify-like model, where the teachers get compensation at the back end, or how does that all work? >> Exactly. Yes, precisely. >> And what do you charge for this? >> So the pants are $250, and then the base level membership is $10 a month, and then the slightly more premium is $30 a month. >> If you think about how much you would spend for a yoga class, that actually seems like a pretty good deal. >> And trust me, when you start calculating, when you go to yoga at least once a week, and it's $20 a week and then you're like, "Oh, and I went every week this year," you realize that it racks up very quickly. >> Well plus the convenience of doing it... I love having... To be able to do it at six a.m. without having to go to a class, especially where I live in Boston, when it's cold in the winter, you don't even want to go out. (all laughing) >> So what do you think the future of the wearable industry is? >> This is a space that I get really excited about. I believe in a version of the future, which has been titled "enchanted objects." And the reason I sort of put it in inverted commas is I think that often has sometimes a magical element to it that people think is a little too far forward. But for me, I really believe that this is possible. So not only do I believe that we will have our own body area network, which I like to call an app store for the body, but I believe every object will have this. And there was a beautiful Wired article last month that actually described why the Japanese culture are adopting robotics and automation in a way that western culture often isn't. And that is because the Shinto religion is the predominant religion in Japan, and they believe that every object has a soul. And if in believing that, you're designing for that object to have a soul and a personality and an ecosystem, and dare we call it, a body area network for each object, then that area network can interface with yours or mine or whoever's, and you can create this really interesting communication that is enchanted and delightful, and not about domination. It's not about screens taking over the world and being in charge of you, and us being dominated by them, as often we see in culture now. It's about having this really beautiful interface between technology and objects. And I really believe that's going to be the version of the future. >> And looking good while you do it. >> Precisely. >> You've got visions to take this beyond yoga, is that right? Other sports, perhaps cycling and swimming and skiing, I can think of so many examples. >> Exactly. Well for us, we're focused on yoga to start with. And certainly areas that I would say are in the gaps. I like to think of our products as being very touch-focused and staying in areas of athleisure or sports that are around touch. So where you would get a natural adjustment from a coach or a teacher, our products can naturally fit into that space. So whether it is squats or whether it is Pilates, they're certainly in our pipeline. But in the immediate future, we're certainly looking at the upper body and in meditation, and how we can remind you to roll your shoulders back and down, and everyone sits up straight. And then longer term, we're looking at how we can move this into physiotherapy, and so as you mentioned, you can enter in that you have a left knee injury, and we'll be able to adjust what you should be working on because of that. >> Is there a possibility of a breathing component, or is that perhaps there today? Such an important part of yoga is breathing. >> 100%. That is very much part of what we're working on. I would say more silently, but very much will launch soon. >> Well it sounds like it's going to have such a positive impact on so many people and that it's going to be in so many different industries. >> I hope so. Yeah that's the plan. >> Well Billie Whitehouse, thank you so much for being on theCUBE, and Dave, thank you. We're here at theCUBE NYC, and stay tuned, don't go anywhere, we'll be back. (inquisitive electronic music)

>> Hey, welcome back everybody. Jeff Frick here with theCUBE. We're in Mountain View, California, at a really cool start-up, Phantom Auto. They're coming at this autonomous vehicle thing from a very different direction. They're not a car company, it's not BMW and Audi and Nissan and all the other people you hear about. It's a pure software play, but it really has a huge impact on the autonomous vehicle industry. We're excited with the guy who's putting all these development, business development deals together. He's Jordan Sanders, director of business development and operations. Jordan, great to see you. >> Yeah, thanks for having me. >> So, again, when I first heard about you guys I thought, "Okay, do I order "this to drive my grandfather to the store," because he shouldn't be driving even though he has his driver's license, but no, that's not it at all. You guys have a very specific target market and it's really more a biz dev than a direct-to-consumer market. >> Yeah, exactly, so we are a B2B business and our target customers are those who are closest to getting their autonomous vehicles on the road. And so, that's frankly where we're seeing the most traction for now, at this point, from customers. As you get closer to true deployment of level four robo-taxis you realize a need for remote assistance, and we think we have the best solution on the market. >> Jeff: Right. >> To actually remotely drive the car and have a human in the loop to promote safety and service. >> So, as you look at your kind of tam, your ecosystem that you're going to market with, obviously we all know Waymo. We see the cars driving around all the time, the Nest is right up the street, but how's that landscape evolving? You know, we obviously hear about Uber, we hear about Lyft, you hear little bits and pieces about BMW and different car companies. As you sit back from where you're sitting, how do you kind of segment the market, how do you figure out where you're going to go next? >> Yeah, it's an interesting question. I mean, right now, you know, there's obviously a lot of excitement around this market and where it will be in five years. Right now the number of actual autonomous vehicles deployed is relatively low, and so that is frankly what our business is tied to. Again, it's enabling every vehicle on the road to actually operate safely, and so in terms of total addressable market, how we see it evolving, right now it's a relatively small number of cars and a relatively small number of players, but we see huge opportunity and huge growth in the sector over the next five years and 10 years. >> Right, and obviously a big integration challenge for you guys because each platform that you partner with is, you know, we hear all the time, some of them are using some shared infrastructure, some of them are trying to use their own, some are RADAR, some are LIDAR, some are camera, some are combination, so from a business development point of view you guys have to integrate with all those different platforms. >> That's correct, and so that's from the very beginning, we're building our end-to-end service to be very flexible and the software piece especially can integrate with any vehicle, with any vehicle manufacturer, because frankly we want to be open to the market and we don't want to just cover, you know, one customer's vehicles. We are sort of a third party who can provide a safety solution for a number of AV operators. >> Right, now the other interesting thing that people probably don't think about is, you know, we hear all about the technology in the cars and the machines, right, and IOT and it's all about machines, but in bringing a human operator into the equation it's not just to operate the vehicle, it's actually a person and all that that means. I wonder if you can kind of explain how that impacts people's autonomous car vehicle when there's actually a person involved. >> Yeah, definitely, so I think, you know, I think about this from a personal standpoint, so part of me is very excited for autonomous vehicles and I've ridden in several autonomous vehicles, feel very comfortable in them very quickly, but I also live in Silicon Valley and not everyone does just get to zip around in autonomous vehicles and is working in this industry, and so we do view there's going to be a, you know, a big consumer adoption kind of hurdle to overcome, and a piece of that is having the passengers in the car comfortable and feeling that, you know, someone has their back, right? >> Jeff: Right. >> So that's a key part of what we believe that we deliver is a human touch to self-driving cars, which we think is very important just at a psychological level, knowing that you have somebody who is monitoring your ride and is ready to intervene and protect you, you know, in the event that something goes wrong with the ride. And the other thing is by having a human in the loop it also enables all sorts of interesting ways of providing better service, and that's going to be a very, a key piece of whenever everyone inside the car is a passenger, there are no longer drivers, we're passengers. There are going to be lots of opportunities for enhancing passenger experience, and we think part of that can be, you know, providing a human service, an actual human on the other end making you feel comfortable and also connecting you with almost like a concierge. >> Right, and like OnStar has been around forever, right, that's probably the first kind of two way- >> You said that, not me, yeah. >> Two way communication, right, into the vehicle, which at first was I think mainly a safety feature. You crash and it sends out a 911 and then I think they kind of evolved it into a little bit of a concierge service. >> Exactly, so again, there's certainly that piece that we think is going to be really important for consumer adoption. I mean, I think AAA did a survey recently that showed 75% of consumers are afraid of trusting a machine, an autonomous vehicle. Now, we're very confident that the AV tech, once you get inside an autonomous vehicle that you very quickly realize, "Wow, this is a great driver," and we're very bullish on, you know, autonomous vehicle technology and believe that it's very reliable. But again, in those edge case scenarios, having a human who's going to intervene on your behalf and be able to actually operate the vehicle will be really important. >> Right, so somebody's watching this and going, "Ha-ha-ha," you know, "I'm a hacker, I'm going to hack into the stream," and it's not going to be Ben, the nice, smooth driver taking over the car but some person that maybe we don't want taking over the car. So, in terms of security and network infrastructure, how much are you leveraging your partners' infrastructure, how much are you leveraging your own, where does kind of security fit in this whole puzzle? >> Yeah, it's a great question and certainly one that, you know, we're hearing from a lot of customers. So, we are working with a variety of cybersecurity firms for making sure that our solution is extremely secure across multiple vectors, so whether it's just on the software piece or really our end-to-end solution, from the hardware that we can offer in the car, to the software, to the actual control center, the operation center where the driver's driving you, making sure that we have end-to-end security to avoid any situation like that. >> Right, so Jordan, for the people that aren't in Silicon Valley, what should they know about autonomous vehicles, how close are we, how much is it just, you know, stuff in the newspaper and you know, kind of nirvana still or just, you know, specialize Waymo vehicles that we see all the time in this neighborhood. How close is this to Main Street, how close is this to being that vehicle that picks me up when I get off the Caltrain to San Francisco and I need to go to a meeting over the Embarcadero? >> Yeah, so I think what people should know about this technology is that it is incredible technology that will be life-saving and that needs to get on the road, but that needs to happen in a safe manner and at a time where you can have full confidence in the operation and all settings, right. The technology is incredible, and so what Phantom Auto is here to do is to get these life-saving vehicles on the road quicker, and so what I would say to the average person who's a little uncertain of this technology is that it is incredible and you're going to enjoy the experience and it will be life-saving, and again, I think Phantom Auto is working to actually bring that experience to consumers by getting these robo-taxi services deployed. >> Jeff: Right. >> Pull out the safety driver and have a remote safety driver, a Phantom Auto remote operator ready to take over control of the vehicle in the event that you need assistance. >> And in terms of where you guys are as a company, right, you're a relatively small company, got this cool Lincoln here, where are you in terms of your company? Do you have POCs in place, do you have customers in place, kind of where is it in terms of the deployment of the technology within your ecosystem? >> Yeah, well we realize that we're bringing a very critical solution to these operators, so again, if you're an autonomous vehicle developer and operator and really thinking seriously about deployment you realize that you need a solution like ours, and so on the business standpoint we have several deals already closed, some pilots planned over the next few months, so you'll be seeing a lot more, I think, of us very soon out in the market. >> All right, now you're going to see more of us on the street. So, Jordan, let's stop talking and let's go take a ride in the car. >> Let's get in the car. >> All right, he's Jordan, I'm Jeff. We're getting in the car, thanks for watching. (techy music playing)

(click) >> Hey, welcome back everybody. Jeff Frick here with theCUBE. It's 2018. We just got out of the CES show and all the rage is autonomous vehicles. You can't get away from it. It's what everybody's talking about. Tesla just announced their autonomous truck, their autonomous Roadster. We're here in Palo Alto, right on San Antonio Road. Googleplex and Waymo's are right up the street. So everyone is all about autonomous vehicles, but we're excited to be here at Phantom Auto and they're taking a slightly different approach for a slightly different problem. We're excited to have Shai Magzimof. He's the co-founder and CEO of Phantom Auto. Shai, great to see you. >> Nice talking to you, yeah. Thanks for having me. >> So Phantom Auto, you guys just got back from CES. You were giving demos, but you weren't stuck in, like, the little lane that was protected. You were actually driving people all over the streets. >> We were driving on the Strip, yeah, yeah. We actually were picking people from the hotel lobby, so the valet guys would let us in with an empty vehicle. These videos are actually also online, and we drove them off the Strip and back to the hotel, or to another destination. >> So you're doing a whole different thing. You do not have an autonomous vehicle. >> It's not an autonomous vehicle. >> You were the ultimate chauffeur driven vehicle. >> Right. Right. So again, for the show, we did our job to show that the vehicle can drive without a driver in the driver's seat, but what we do is actually a safety solution for autonomous vehicles. And that safety is basically what happens if an autonomous vehicle artificial intelligence doesn't work. Let's say there's something that it cannot see, or something that, you know, an unidentified object, road construction areas, severe weather conditions, all this stuff happens all the time. And autonomous vehicles may struggle with the situation so Phantom Auto provides a solution that we work with these companies. We provide them that solution that allows remote operations, so someone will connect remotely. >> So let's back up a couple steps. Autonomous vehicles are meant for no driver. You guys have a driver but you're really assisted driving with a person from a remote location. So how do you describe that in a short category? I'm sure the analysts will want you to have a category. >> The category would be the same way you think about air traffic control, right, or any type of control center, like call control centers. Any type of support for customers, you would have a bunch of people sitting in front of computers, in our case they're sitting at computers with steering wheels, we'll see that later, and they can connect to a vehicle remotely, and when they move the steering wheel or press the gas or brake, it would actually happen in realtime. So we have this software that allows this realtime, critical communication for autonomous vehicles. >> Now what's weird is when we first heard about you guys, I'm thinking, okay what is the use case? Am I going to send the Phantom Auto to go pick up my hundred-year old grandfather who probably shouldn't be driving anymore, where you're escorting it. But really it's a very different application, and I don't think most people understand that, in autonomous vehicles, there's a whole lot of use cases still that they haven't quite figured out. My favorite one is when two of them pull up to a four-way stop, and neither of them wants to go first. They get stuck in a friendly lock, right, they get paper-logger, some poor kid has his foot in the intersection and is trying to wave the car through and it won't go through. So it's corner cases that you guys are all about, to really enable that next-stage of machinery. >> When I started a company, right, I'm a big believer in autonomous vehicle, I wanted to make them happen faster and sooner because it's life-saving technology. This is going to change the world. We all want it faster. Now, the reason why we're still not there yet is because there are many corner cases, edge cases, these situations where the machine didn't train enough for, and in this situation they provide a cover. So we have a person that would sit in an office, he doesn't have to be so close nearby. When we were in Vegas a couple weeks ago, the driver was in Mountain View, so Mountain View, California, Silicon Valley to Vegas, and he moves the steering wheel and he moves it real time. >> But he's driving the car. >> Yeah. >> So one of the great knocks on cloud, right, is latency, and clearly the use case that's always brought up is if you're in a self-driving car, you don't have time for the data to get it to the cloud and back to make a decision if a little ball rolls out into the street. So latency is a big issue. How do you guys deal with the latency issue? >> That's our secret sauce, obviously, but I'm happy to share as much as I can. The high level description would be, we connect multiple networks at the same time. We would usually have only AT&T in your cellphone, right, or in your car, and then we have AT&T, Verizon, T-Mobile, and a few networks, all of these together are bonded, and once they're bonded they get a much stronger connection. It sounds maybe easy, okay so let's plug a few phones and then get a really good connection, but it's much more complicated than that. We share and split the data across multiple networks at the same time, we prioritize the data. So, like a brake, it's very important, right, so if the remote operator is pressing the brake, you want it to be first in the vehicle, where the right side of the camera is not as critical, so lower latency for the brake, and then a little bit higher latency for something less important. >> So you've got dynamic, kind of, latent distribution. >> It's all dynamic, realtime, you know, so that's what we do, our real core. We provide this communication, real time, critical layer of communication for the video streaming and back of the data from the remote operator, back and forth all the time. >> So that's one big piece of it. Another big piece of it is the communications between the occupants in the vehicle and the driver. Another really important piece that obviously most people aren't thinking about for autonomous vehicles because they don't have that use case. But that's a pretty important piece of your solution. >> Yeah, that's a big one. I'd say that for this, you don't need to do a lot of innovation. It could be a simple call with the driver remotely. But, we're all about safety, right, and we're all about giving passengers this psychological trust, and it is true, you want to sit in a car that drives 100% of the time. If I tell you that your car today would go in and drives only 95% of the time, you would not buy this car. Same thing with autonomous vehicles. So we provide a safety and service layer. On the safety side, it's about assisting the vehicle when there's an emergency. It could be post-emergency or before it happens. Let's say you're just stuck in the middle of the lane and you don't know what happens. Even if the driver remotely wouldn't actually drive the car, you still want to be able to talk to somebody, right. So, I'd start with first the person, the driver, the human being would greet you when you enter the vehicle. It's an autonomous vehicle, he would say hello, how are you, nice to meet you, my name is let's say Ben- >> Ben is going to be your driver. >> Your driver soon, and Ben is going to tell you that whenever you have a problem, if you need any assistance, he would be there for you. That already gives you like a whole different type of experience, and when you leave the vehicle too, he's not going to be there all the time engaged with the car. The car is going to drive on an autonomous AV system, but at least he's there in case you need him. >> And again, the attention thing, which is an issue, you see with some of the test autonomous cars out there we were talking before we turned the cameras on, where the engineer's got his hands ready to grab the wheel if there's an emergency. That's not really Ben's role here. The car is going to take evasive action in terms of emergency. It's more to get out of like these weird corner cases as you said. >> Correct, it's not a test driver. Today, most autonomous vehicle companies still require and mandate it, it's actually illegal. By the regs, you have to have a person in the car. We also have a person in the car, and we do that same thing, although when Ben is driving, he's not replacing that person. He's just assisting when the autonomous vehicle system would have an issue. >> Right. So the next thing I think that's pretty interesting about your company, as you said, you're a software company. There is hardware components, you can see the back of the car, we'll take some film of the driving station, but you use a lot of off the shelf, really simple hardware to execute this. There's Logitech, little steering wheels are over there, it feels like a big video game, you've got the big, curved Samsung screens, basic cameras on the car, so talk about the opportunity to build a software company and you're leveraging somebody else's autonomous vehicle technology to really get in the middle of this with just software, a pretty cool opportunity. >> I'll tell you what. The best time of my life was earlier this year, when I was just putting this whole thing together because it was plugging in the hardware and the software, I did it together with a team that's also here in the office. Obviously, it was more challenging because from a software person to try and build this hardware, you know, is more challenging, but I'd say today, you can get anything on Amazon, you buy on eBay a part you need, you plug it in and it would just work. So, again, we did a lot of iteration, I'd say we spent a bit more money than we were supposed to. But, that works. >> Right. And then the last piece of the puzzle that I think is fascinating is the way you're going to integrate in with other people's autonomous vehicle, so again, we talked about Waymo up the street, the Google one, Uber is working on theirs, Volvo, every day you read about BMW, et cetera et cetera, so you really get to take advantage of those hardware systems, the sensor systems, the control systems, not only from those autonomous vehicles, but you're seeing now all this stuff that's coming in factory, right, avoidance collision and radar and all types of sensors, so you will have to be able to take advantage of those different platforms and integrate your system into those various platforms. >> Right. So we would work with a company, let's say if it's one of the big OEMs or ride-sharing companies, we would know how their vehicle is set up, all we need for our solution to work is a bunch of cameras and a few modems, right, so cameras everybody have, it's one of the most essential things in an autonomous vehicle- >> Right, right. >> We would just tag into these cameras, use the modems that we need for the software to run, and that's about it. So it's a pretty straightforward solution to allow remote control assistant for autonomous vehicles. >> I'm just curious, when you're talking to customers or potential partners, what is the piece that really resonates with them when you kind of explain your solution and how it fits with what they're trying to accomplish? >> Right, so our solution is really trying to help them reach market faster, so we're not replacing anybody's work. We're adding another layer of support and safety so when yous computer crashed, when your software crashed in the car, we're going to be there with another redundancy system to support with a driver remotely. So, that's what we do at the service level. >> Okay, so can I go take a drive? >> Yeah, sure. Let's do it. >> All right, we're going to check it out, we're going to take a drive. We'll see you in the car. Thanks for watching. (upbeat music)

>> Welcome to the latest edition of the MIT Sloan Expert Series. I'm your host, Rebecca Knight. Our topic today is racial bias in the sharing economy, how Uber and Lyft are failing black passengers, and what to do about it. Here to talk about that is Chris Knittel. He is a professor of Applied Economics here at MIT Sloan, and he's also the co-author of a study that shows how Uber and Lyft drivers discriminate based on a passenger's skin color. Thanks so much for joining us. >> Oh, it's great to be here. >> Before we begin, I want to remind our viewers that we will be taking your questions live on social media. Please use the hashtag MITSloanExpert to pose your questions on Twitter. Chris, let's get started. >> Chris: Sure. So there is a lot of research that shows how difficult it is to hail a cab, particularly for black people. Uber and Lyft were supposed to represent a more egalitarian travel option, but you didn't find that. >> That's right, so what we found in two experiments that we ran, and one in Seattle, and one in Boston, is that Uber and Lyft drivers were discriminating based on race. >> Rebecca: We've already seen, actually some evidence of racial discrimination in the sharing economy, not just with ride sharing apps. >> Sure, so there's evidence for Airbnb. And what's interesting about Airbnb actually, is that discrimination is two-sided. So not only do white renters of properties not want to rent to black rentees, but white renters do not stay at a home of a black home owner. >> Did your findings and the findings of that other research you just talked about, does it make you discouraged? >> Partly, I was an optimist. We went into this, at least I went into this hoping that we wouldn't find discrimination, but one thing that has helped, or at least shined a more positive light, is that there are ways that we can do better in this sector. >> You've talked about this study, which you undertook with colleagues from the University of Washington and Stanford, shows the power of the experiment. Can you talk a little bit about what you mean by that? >> Sure, what we did was actually run two randomized control trials. Just like you would test whether a blood pressure medication works, so you would have a control group that wouldn't get the medication, and a treatment group that would. We did the same thing where we sent out in Seattle both black and white RAs that hailed Uber and Lyft rides, and we randomized whether or not it was a black RA calling the ride or a white RA that particular time, and they all drove the same exact route at the same exact times of the day. >> So what did you find? Let's talk about first, what you found in Seattle. >> Sure, so in Seattle, we measured how long it took for a ride to be accepted, and also, how long it took, once it was accepted, for the driver to show up and pick up the passenger. And what we found is, if you're a black research assistant, that in hailing an Uber ride, it took 30 percent longer for a ride to be accepted, and also 30 percent longer for the driver to show up and pick you up. >> 30 percent seems substantial. >> Well, for the time it takes to accept the ride, we're talking seconds, but for the time it takes for a passenger to actually be picked up, it's over a minute longer. And I'll mention also for Lyft, we found a 30 percent increase in the amount of time it took to be accepted, but there was no statistically significant impact on how long it took for the driver to actually show up. >> So, the thing about the minute difference, that can be material, particularly if you're trying to catch a cab, an Uber or a Lyft for a job interview or to get to the airport. >> Yeah, this is introspection, but I always seem to be late, so even a minute can be very costly. >> I hear you, I hear you. So why do you think there was the difference between Lyft and Uber? >> What's interesting, and we learned this while we were doing the experiment, a Lyft driver sees the name of the passenger before they accept the ride, whereas an Uber driver only sees the name after they've accepted. So in order for an Uber driver to discriminate, they have to first accept the ride, and then see the name and then cancel, whereas a Lyft driver can just pass it up right away. So it turns out because of that, the Lyft platform is more easily capable of handling discrimination because it pushed it to another driver faster than the Uber platform. >> I want to come back to that, but I want to say also, that difference caused you to change the way you did the experiment in Boston. >> In Boston, a couple differences. One is that we sent out RAs with two cell phones actually. So each RA had an Uber and Lyft account under a stereotypically white sounding name, and then also an Uber and Lyft account under a stereotypically black sounding name. That was one difference, and then also, what we measured in Boston that we didn't measure in Seattle, is cancellations. So an Uber driver accepts the ride, and then cancels on the RA. >> Let's go back to the stereotypically black sounding name verses white sounding name. You're an economist, how did you determine what those names are? >> We relied on another published paper that actually looked at birth records from the 1970s in Boston, and the birth records tell you not only the name, but also the race of the baby. So they found names that actually 100 percent of the time were African American or 100 percent of the time were not African American. So we relied on those names. >> And the names were... >> So you could imagine Jamal for example, compared to Jerry. >> Alright, Ayisha and Alison. >> Chris: Sure. >> So what was your headline finding in Boston? >> In Boston, what we found is, if you were a black male calling an Uber ride, that you were canceled upon more than twice as often as if you were a white male. >> And what about Lyft? >> For Lyft, there is no cancellation effect, and that's not because there's no discrimination, it's just that they don't have to accept and then cancel the ride, they can just pass up the ride completely. It's actually a nice little experiment within the experiment, we shouldn't find an effect of names on cancellations for Lyft and in fact, we don't. >> And also, the driver network is much thicker in Boston than in Seattle. >> So in Boston, although we found this cancellation effect, we didn't find that it has a measurable impact on how long you wait. And this is somewhat speculation, but we speculate that that's because the driver network is so much more dense in Boston that, although you were canceled upon, there's so many only drivers nearby, that it doesn't lead to a longer wait time. >> How do you think what you found compares to hailing traditional cabs? We started our conversation talking about the vast body of research that shows how difficult it is for black people to hail cabs. >> Yeah, we are quick to point out that we are not at all saying that Uber and Lyft are worse than traditional, status quo system, and we want to definitely make that clear. In fact, in Seattle, we had our same research assistants stand at the busiest corners and hail cabs. What we found there is, if you were a black research assistant, the first cab passed you 80 percent of the time. But if you were a white research assistant, it only passed you 20 percent of the time. So just like the previous literature has found, we found discrimination with the status quo system as well. >> You've talked to the companies about you findings, what has the response been? >> That's been actually heartening. Both companies reached out to us very quickly, and we've had continued conversations with them, and we're actually trying to design followup studies to minimize the amount of discrimination that's occurring for both Uber and Lyft. >> But those are off the record and... >> Right, we're not talking specifics, but what I can say is that the companies understand this research and they definitely want to do better. >> In fact, the companies both have issued statements about this, the first one is from Lyft, "we are extremely proud of the positive impact..." Uber has also responded. So let's talk about solutions to this. What do you and your colleagues who undertook this research suggest? >> We've been brainstorming, we don't know for sure if we have the silver bullet, but a few things could change, for example, you could imagine Uber and Lyft getting rid of names completely. We realize that has a trade off in the sense that it's nice to know the name of the driver... >> Rebecca: Sure, you can strike up a conversation... >> It makes it more social, it makes it more personal, more peer to peer if you will. But it would eliminate the type of discrimination that we uncovered. Another potential change is to delay when you give the name to the driver, so that the driver has to commit more to the ride than he or she previously had to. And that may increase the costs of discrimination. >> So that would be changing the software? >> Right, so you could imagine now, like I said, with Lyft that you see the name right away. Maybe you wait until they're 30 seconds away from the passenger before you give them the name. >> What about the dawn of the age of autonomous vehicles? Might that have an impact? We already know that Uber is experimenting with driverless cars in Pittsburgh and Arizona. >> That would obviously solve it, so that would take the human element out of things, and it's important to point out that these are the drivers that are deciding to discriminate. So provided you didn't write the autonomous vehicle software to discriminate, you would know for sure that that car is not going to discriminate. >> What about a driver education campaign? Do you think that would make a difference? I'm reminded of an essay written by Doug Glanville, who is an ESPN commentator and former pro ball player. He writes, on talking about his experience being denied service by an Uber driver, "the driver had concluded I was a threat, "either because I was dangerous myself, "or because I would direct him to a bad neighborhood, "or give him a lower tip, either way, "given the circumstances, it was hard "to attribute his refusal to anything other than my race. "Shortly after we walked away, I saw the driver assisting "another passenger who was white." >> We all hope that information helps, and eliminates discrimination. It's certainly possible that Uber and Lyft could have a full information campaign, where they show the tip rates for different ethnicities, they show the bad ride probabilities for different ethnicities, and my hope is that once the drivers learn that there aren't differences across ethnicities, that the drivers would internalize that, and stop discriminating. >> Policy, Senator Al Franken has weighed in on this, urging Uber and Lyft to address your research. Do you think that there could be policies too? Does government have a role to play? >> Potentially, but what I'll say again is, that Uber and Lyft, I think have all the incentive in the world to fix this, and that they seem to be taking active steps to fixing this. So what could policy makers do? They can, obviously it's already outlawed. They could come down and potentially fine the companies if there's more evidence of discrimination. But I would at least allow the companies some time to internalize this research, and respond to it, and see how effective they can be. >> Many, many think tanks and government advocacy groups have weighed in too. The MIT Sloan Expert Series recently sat down with Eva Millona of the Massachusetts Immigrant and Refugee Coalition. She will talk about this research in the context of immigration, let's roll that clip. >> We're an advocacy organization, and we represent the interest of foreign born, and our mission is to promote and enhance immigrant and refugee integration. Anecdotally, yes, I would say that the research, and given the impressive sample of the research really leads to a sad belief that discrimination is still out there, and there is a lot that needs to be done across sectors to really address these issues. We are really privileged to live in such a fantastic commonwealth with the right leadership and all sectors together, really making our commonwealth a welcoming place. And I do want to highlight the fantastic role of our Attorney General for standing up for our values, but Massachusetts is one state, and it could be an example, but the concern is nation wide. Given a very divisive campaign, and also not just a campaign, but also, what is currently happening at the national level that the current administration is really rejecting this welcoming effort, and the values of our country as a country, who welcomes immigrants. All sectors need to be involved in an effort to really make our society a better one for everyone. And it's going to take political leadership to really set the right tone, send the right message, and really look into the integration, and the welcoming of the newcomers as an investment in our future of our nation. Uber and Lyft have an opportunity here to provide leadership and come up with promotion of policies that integrate the newcomers, or that are welcoming to the newcomers, provide education and training, and train their people. And as troubling as the result of this research are, we like to believe that this is the attitude of the drivers, but not really what the corporate represents, so we see an opportunity for the corporate to really step in and work and promote policies of integration, policies of improvement and betterment for the whole of society and provide an example. Let me say thank you to Professor Knittle for his leadership and MIT for always being a leader, and looking into these issues. But if we can go deeper into A, the size, B, the geography, but also looking into a wider range of all communities that are represented. Looking into the Latino community, looking into the Arab communities in other parts of the nation in a more rigorous, more deep and larger size of research will be very helpful in terms of promoting better policies and integration for everybody who chooses America to be their home. >> That was Eva Millona of the Massechusetts Immigrant and Refugee Advocacy Coalition. Chris, are you confident this problem can in fact be remedied? >> I think we can do better, for sure. And I would say we need more studies like what we just preformed to see how widespread it is. We only studied two cities, we also haven't looked at all at how the driver's race impacts the discrimination. >> Now we're going to turn to you, questions from our viewers. Questions have already been coming in this morning and overnight, lots of great ones. Please use the hashtag MITSloanExpert to pose your question. The first one comes from Justin Wang, who is an MIT Sloan MBA student. He asks, "what policies can sharing economy startups "implement to reduce racial bias?" >> Well, I would say the first thing is to be aware of this. I think Uber and Lyft and Airbnb potentially were caught off guard with the amount of discrimination that was taking place. So the research that we preformed, and the research on Airbnb gives new startups a head start on designing their platforms. >> Just knowing that this is an issue. >> Knowing it's an issue, and potentially designing their platforms to think of ways to limit the amount of discrimination. >> Another question, did you look at gender bias? Do you have any indication that drivers discriminate based on gender? >> We did look at gender bias. The experiments weren't set up to necessarily nail that, but one thing that we found, for example in Boston, is that there is some evidence that women drivers were taken on longer trips. Again, both the male and the female RAs are going from the same point A to the same point B. >> Rebecca: That was a controlled part of the setting. >> That was the controlled part of the experiment. And we found evidence that women passengers were taken on longer trips and in fact, one of our RAs commented that she remembers going through the same intersection three times before she finally said something to the driver. >> And you think... So you didn't necessarily study this as part of it, but do you have any speculation, conjecture about why this was happening? >> Well, there's two potential motives. One is a financial motive that, by taking the passenger on a longer drive. They potentially get a higher fare. But I've heard anecdotal evidence that a more social motive might also be at play. For example, I have a colleague here at Sloan, who's told me that she's been asked out on dates three times while taking Uber and Lyft rides. >> So drivers taking the opportunity to flirt a little bit. >> Chris: Sure. >> Another question, can you comment on the hashtag DeleteUber campaign? This of course, is about the backlash against Uber responding that it was intending to profit from President Trump's executive order, the banning immigrants and refugees from certain countries from entering the United States. Uber maintains that its intentions were misunderstood, but it didn't stop the hashtag DeleteUber campaign. >> Yeah, I haven't followed that super closely, but to me it seems like Uber's getting a bit of a bad rap. One potential reason why they allowed Uber drivers to continue working is that, maybe they wanted to bring protesters to the airports to protest. So from that perspective, actually having Uber and Lyft still in business would be beneficial. >> Another question, did your study take into account the race of the drivers themselves? >> We actually we not allowed to. So any time you do a randomized control trial in the field like this, you have to go through a campus committee that approves or disapproves the research, and they were worried that if we collected information on the driver, that potentially, Uber and Lyft could go back into their records and find the drivers that discriminate, and then have penalties assigned to those drivers. >> So it just wouldn't be allowed to... >> At least in this first phase, yeah. They didn't want us to collect those data. >> Last question, we have time for one more. Why aren't there more experiments in the field of applies economics like this one? That's a good question. >> That's a great question, and in fact, I think many of us are trying to push experiments as much as possible. My other line of research is actually in energy and climate change research, and we've been- >> Rebecca: You like the hot topic. (lauhging) >> We've been designing a bunch of experiments to look at how information impacts consumers' choices in terms of what cars to buy, how it impacts their use of electricity at home. And experiments, randomized control trials actually started in developmental economics, where MIT has actually pioneered their use. And again, it's the best way to actually test, the most rigorous way to test whether intervention actually has an effect because you have both the controlled group and the treatment group. >> So why aren't they done more often? >> Well, it's tough, often you need to find a third party, for example, we didn't need a third party in the sense that we could just send RAs out with Uber and Lyft. But if we wanted to do anything with the drivers, for example, an information campaign, or if we wanted to change the platform at all, we would've needed Uber and Lyft to partner with us, and that can sometimes be difficult to do. And also experiments, let's be honest, are pretty expensive. >> Expensive because, you obviously weren't partnered with Uber and Lyft for this one, but... >> Right, but we had research assistants take 1500 Uber and Lyft rides, so we had to pay for each of those rides, and we also had to give them an hourly rate for their time. >> Well, Chris Knittle, thank you so much. This has been great talking to you, and you've given us a lot to think about. >> It's been fun, thanks for having me. >> And thank you for joining us on this edition of the MIT Sloan Expert Series. We hope to see you again soon.

>>The introduction of the modern public cloud in the mid two thousands permanently changed the way we think about it at the heart of it. The cloud operating model attacked one of the biggest problems in enterprise infrastructure, human labor costs more than half of it, budgets were spent on people. And much of that effort added little or no differentiable value to the business. The automation of provisioning management, recovery optimization and decommissioning infrastructure resources has gone mainstream as organizations demand a cloud-like model across all their application infrastructure, irrespective of its physical location. This is not only cut costs, but it's also improved quality and reduced human error. Hello everyone. My name is Dave Vellante and welcome to simplifying hybrid cloud made possible by Cisco today, we're going to explore hybrid cloud as an operating model for organizations or the definition of cloud is expanding. Cloud is no longer an abstract set of remote services, you know, somewhere out in the clouds. >>No, it's an operating model that spans public cloud on premises infrastructure. And it's also moving to edge locations. This trend is happening at massive scale. While at the same time, preserving granular control of resources. It's an entirely new game where it managers must think differently to deal with this complexity. And the environment is constantly changing the growth and diversity of applications continues. And now we're living in a world where the workforce is remote hybrid work is now a permanent state and will be the dominant model. In fact, a recent survey of CIO is by enterprise technology. Research ETR indicates that organizations expect 36% of their workers will be operating in a hybrid mode splitting time between remote work and in office environments. This puts added pressure on the application infrastructure required to support these workers. The underlying technology must be more dynamic and adaptable to accommodate constant change. >>So the challenge for it managers is ensuring that modern applications can be run with a cloud-like experience that spans on-prem public cloud and edge locations. This is the future of it. Now today we have three segments where we're going to dig into these issues and trends surrounding hybrid cloud. First up is Didi Dasgupta, who will set the stage and share with us how Cisco is approaching this challenge. Next we're going to hear from Maneesh Agra wall and Darren Williams, who will help us unpack HyperFlex, which is Cisco's hyper-converged infrastructure offering. And finally, our third segment we'll drill into unified compute more than a decade ago. Cisco pioneered the concept of bringing together compute with networking in a single offering. Cisco frankly changed the legacy server market with UCS unified compute system. The X series is Cisco's next generation architecture for the coming decade, and we'll explore how it fits into the world of hybrid cloud and its role in simplifying the complexity that we just discussed. So thanks for being here. Let's go. >>Okay. Let's start things off. Gus is back on the cube to talk about how we're going to simplify hybrid cloud complexity. DD. Welcome. Good to see you again. >>Hey Dave, thanks for having me. Good to see you again. Yeah, >>Our pleasure here. Uh, look, let's start with big picture. Talk about the trends you're seeing from your customers. >>Well, I think first off every customer, these days is a public cloud customer. They do have their on-premise data centers, but um, every customer is looking to move workloads, use services, cloud native services from the public cloud. I think that's, that's one of the big things that we're seeing, um, while that is happening. We're also seeing a pretty dramatic evolution of the application landscape itself. You've got bare metal applications. You always have virtualized applications. Um, and then most modern applications are, um, are containerized and, you know, managed by Kubernetes. So I think we're seeing a big change in, uh, uh, in the application landscape as well, and probably, you know, triggered by the first two things that I mentioned, the execution venue of the applications, and then the applications themselves it's triggering a change in the it organizations in the development organizations and sort of not only how they work within their organizations, but how they work across, um, all of these different organizations. So I think those are some of the big things that, uh, that I hear about when I talk to customers. >>Well, so it's interesting. I often say Cisco kind of changed the game and in server and compute when it, when it developed the original UCS and you remember there were organizational considerations back then bringing together the server team and the networking team. And of course the bus storage team. And now you mentioned Kubernetes, that is a total game changer with regard to whole the application development process. So you have to think about a new strategy in that regard. So how have you evolved your strategy? What is your strategy to help customers simplify, accelerate their hybrid cloud journey in that context? >>No, I think you're right. Um, back to the origins of UCS, I mean, we widen the networking company, builder server, well, we just enabled with the best networking technology. So we do compute that and now doing something similar on the software, actually the software for our, um, for our and you know, we've been on this journey for about four years. Um, but the software is called intersite and, you know, we started out with intersite being just the element manager management software for Cisco's compute and hyperconverged devices. Um, but then we've evolved it over the last few years because we believe that the customer shouldn't have to manage a separate piece of software would do manage the hardware of the underlying hardware and then a separate tool to connect it to a public cloud. And then the third tool to do optimization, workload optimization or performance optimization or cost optimization, a fourth tool do now manage Kubernetes and not just in one cluster, one cloud, but multi cluster multicloud. >>They should not have to have a fifth tool that does go into observability. Anyway, I can go on and on, but you get the idea. We wanted to bring everything onto that same platform that manage their infrastructure, but it's also the platform that enables the simplicity of hybrid cloud operations, automation. It's the same platform on which you can use to manage the Kubernetes infrastructure, uh, Kubernetes clusters. I mean, whether it's on-prem or in the cloud. So overall that's the strategy, bring it to a single platform and a platform is a loaded word, but we'll get into that a little bit, uh, you know, in this, in this conversation, but that's the overall strategy simplify? >>Well, you know, we brought a platform, I, I like to say platform beats products, but you know, there was a day and you could still point to some examples today in the it industry where, Hey, another tool we can monetize that and another one to solve a different problem. We can monetize that. Uh, and so tell me more about how intersite came about. You obviously sat back, you saw what your customers were going through. You said we can do better. So w tell us the story there. >>Yeah, absolutely. So look, it started with, um, you know, three or four guys in getting in a room and saying, look, we've had this, you know, management software, UCS manager, UCS director, and these are just the Cisco's management, you know, uh, for our softwares, for our own platform. Then every company has their, their own flavor. We said, we took on this ball goal of like, we're not when we rewrite this or we improve on this, we're not going to just write another piece of software. We're going to create a cloud service, or we're going to create a SAS offering because the same is the infrastructure built by us, whether it's on networking or compute or on software, how do our customers use it? Well, they use it to write and run their applications, their SAS services, every customer, every customer, every company today is a software company. >>They live and die by how they work or don't. And so we were like, we want to eat our own dog food here, right? We want to deliver this as a SAS offering. And so that's how it started being on this journey for about four years, tens of thousands of customers. Um, but it was a pretty big boat patient because, you know, um, the big change with SAS is, is you're, uh, as you're familiar today is the job of now managing this, this piece of software is not on the customer, it's on the vendor, right? This can never go down. We have a release every Thursday, new capabilities, and we've learned so much along the way, whether it's around scalability, reliability, um, working with, uh, our own companies, security organizations on what can or cannot be in a SAS service. Um, so again, it's just been a wonderful journey, but, uh, I wanted to point out, we are in some ways eating our own dog food because we built a SAS application that helps other companies deliver their SAS applications. >>So Cisco, I look at Cisco's business model and I compete, I of course, compare it to other companies in the infrastructure business, and obviously a very profitable company or large company you're growing faster than, than, than most of the traditional competitors. And so that means that you have more to invest. You, you, you can, you can afford things like doing stock buybacks, and you can invest in R and D. You don't have to make those hard trade-offs that a lot of your competitors have to make. So It's never enough, right. Never enough. But, but, but in speaking of R and D and innovations that your intro introducing I'm specifically interested in, how are you dealing with innovations to help simplify hybrid cloud in the operations there and prove flexibility and things around cloud native initiatives as well? >>Absolutely. Absolutely. Well, look, I think one of the fundamentals where we're philosophically different from a lot of options that I see in the industry is we don't need to build everything ourselves. We don't, I just need to create a damn good platform with really good platform services, whether it's, you know, around, um, search ability, whether it's around logging, whether it's around, you know, access control, multi-tenants, I need to create a really good platform and make it open. I do not need to go on a shopping spree to buy 17 and a half companies, and then figure out how to stitch it all together. Cause it's, it's almost impossible if it's impossible for us as a vendor, it's, it's three times more difficult, but for the customer who then has to consume it. So that was the philosophical difference in how we went about building in our sites. >>We've created a harden platform that's, that's always on. Okay. And then you, then the magic starts happening. Then you get partners, whether it is, um, you know, infrastructure partners like, uh, you know, some of our storage partners like NetApp or your, you know, others who want their conversion infrastructure is also to be managed or are other SAS offerings and software vendors, um, who have now become partners. Like we do not, we did not write to Terraform, you know, but we partnered with Tashi and now, uh, you know, Terraform services available on the intercept platform. We did not write all the algorithms for workload optimization between a public cloud and on-prem, we partnered with a company called ergonomics. And so that's now an offering on the intercept platform. So that's where we're philosophically different and sort of, uh, you know, w how we have gone about this. >>And, uh, it actually dovetails well into some of the new things that I want to talk about today that we're announcing on the inner side platform where we're actually announcing the ability to attach and, and be able to manage Kubernetes clusters, which are not on prem. They're actually on AWS, on Azure, uh, soon coming on, uh, on GC, on, uh, on GKE as well. So it really doesn't matter. We're not telling a customer if you're comfortable building your applications and running Kubernetes clusters on, you know, in AWS or Azure, stay there, but in terms of monitoring, managing it, you can use in our site is since you're using it on prem, you can use that same piece of software to manage Kubernetes clusters in a public cloud, or even manage the end in, in a, in an easy to instance. So, >>So the fact that you could, you mentioned storage, pure net app. So it's intersite can manage that infrastructure. I remember the hot-seat deal. It caught my attention. And of course, a lot of companies want to partner with Cisco because you've got such a strong ecosystem, but I thought that was an interesting move Turbonomic. You mentioned. And now you're saying Kubernetes in the public cloud, so a lot different than it was 10 years ago. Um, so my last question is how do you see this hybrid cloud evolving? I mean, you had private cloud and you had public cloud, it was kind of a tug of war there. We see these, these, these two worlds coming together. How will that evolve over the next few years? >>Well, I think it's, it's the evolution of the model and really look at depending on, you know, how you're keeping time. But I think one thing has become very clear. Again, we may be eating our own dog food. I mean, innercise is a hybrid cloud SAS applications that we've learned. Some of these lessons ourselves. One thing is referred that customers are looking for a consistent model, whether it's on the edge, on the polo public cloud, on-prem no data center. It doesn't matter if they're looking for a consistent model for operations, for governings or upgrades, or they're looking for a consistent operating model. What my crystal ball doesn't mean. There's going to be the rise of more custom plugs. It's still going to be hybrid. So allegations will want to reside wherever it makes most sense for them, which is most as the data moving data is the most expensive thing. >>So it's going to be located with the data that's on the edge. We on the air colo public cloud doesn't matter, but, um, basically you're gonna see more custom clouds, more industry-specific clouds, you know, whether it's for finance or constipation or retail industry specific, I think sovereign is going to play a huge role. Uh, you know, today, if you look at the cloud providers, you know, American and Chinese companies that these, the rest of the world, when it goes to making, you know, a good digital citizens, they're they're people and, you know, whether it's, gonna play control, um, and then distributed cloud also on edge, um, is, is gonna be the next frontier. And so that's where we are trying to line up our strategy. And if I had to sum it up in one sentence, it's really your cloud, your way, every customer is on a different journey. They will have their choice of like workload data, um, you know, upgrading your liability concerns. That's really what, what we are trying to enable for our customers. >>Uh, you know, I think I agree with doing that custom clouds. And I think what you're seeing is you said every company is a software company. Every company is also becoming a cloud company. They're building their own abstraction layers. They're connecting their on-prem to their, to their public cloud. They're doing that. They're, they're doing that across clouds. And they're looking for companies like Cisco to do the hard work. It give me an infrastructure layer that I can build value on top of, because I'm going to take my financial services business to my cloud model or my healthcare business. I don't want to mess around with it. I'm not going to develop, you know, custom infrastructure like an Amazon does. I'm going to look to Cisco in your R and D to do that. Do you buy that? >>Absolutely. I think, again, it goes back back to what I was talking about with blacks. You got to get the world, uh, a solid open, flexible platform, and it's flexible in terms of the technology flexible in how they want to consume it at some customers are fine with a SAS software. What if I talk to, you know, my friends in the federal team now that does not work so how they want to consume it, they want to, you know, our perspective sovereignty, we talked about it. So, you know, job for an infrastructure vendor like ourselves is give the world an open platform, give them the knobs, give them the right API. Um, but the last thing I would mention is, you know, there's still a place for innovation in hardware. Some of my colleagues are gonna engage into some of those, um, you know, details, whether it's on our X series platform or HyperFlex. Um, but it's really, it's going to, it's going to be software defined to SAS service and then, you know, give the world and open rock-solid platform, >>Got to run on something. All right, thanks DDL. It was a pleasure to have you in the queue. Great to see you. You're welcome in a moment, I'll be back to dig into hyperconverged and where HyperFlex fits and how it may even help with addressing some of the supply chain challenges that we're seeing in the market today.