>> Live from Barcelona, Spain, it's theCUBE, covering KubeCon + CloudNativeCon Europe 2019. Brought to you by Red Hat, the Cloud Native Computing Foundation, and ecosystem partners. >> Welcome back. This is theCUBE's live coverage of KubeCon + CloudNativeCon 2019 here in Barcelona, Spain. I'm Stu Miniman, my cohost is Corey Quinn. Happy to welcome to the program two first-time guests, a company we've had on the program, Reduxio. But some changes have been going on, as have been in the industry. Sitting to my right is Ori Bendori, who is the CEO of the company. Sitting to his right is Jacob Cherian, who is the CMO and vice president of product. Gentlemen, thanks so much for joining us. >> Thank you. >> Thank you for having us. >> One of the things that I've really enjoyed at this conference is, it is a global conference. The CNCF puts on three pieces of it, but this one definitely has a very European flavor. You gentlemen are coming to us from Israel. Ori, let's start with you. Just give us the update, kind of the quick, the who and the why and the what of Reduxio. >> Okay. So we are a storage and data management company, and where we are aiming is having Kubernetes native, containers native, cloud native solution. We have some unique capabilities. And actually we are getting ourself to the public this exhibition, so it's very important for us. We've been developing it for the last year, so this is the first time we announce that we have a new product that is container native, headed to clouds, and very unique. >> So Jacob, we actually had an analyst on earlier and he said, "The thing about this space is, "we're talking it's stateless, "it's trussless, it's codeless. "That doesn't mean I can't deal "with those environments, "they all have some challenges when you talk about storage." I mean those of us that know storage, it's a complicated thing. I loved the presentation this morning, and the key note was it's turtles all the way down. There's a lot of complexity inside storage and that doesn't go away, and sometimes we're trying to make this world no less complicated than storage would be outside of it, as I guess an industry thing. How is Reduxio helping us solve that? >> So as customers move applications from traditional infrastructures to storage, to containerized infrastructure, I think the expectation is that these customers would expect the same capability that they had with the existing storage systems in the container native storage. Because why would a customer move their applications to an environment that's less capable? And our focus is to deliver storage that is enterprise grade, where customers feel comfortable for moving their business-critical applications from the traditional environment into a container environment. >> You mentioned a few minutes ago that this is, you have something very unique that you've been working on for a year and are now deploying into the marketplace. In your conversations with customers, what unmet need did you wind up seeing and what differentiates you from other options people could go with? >> Thank you. I think we're talking about three things. The most important thing, the first one, as Jacob was describing, is we are enterprise grade. We have the full set of data management and storage capability, which we believe some of our customers do not have. We believe containers are moving to production. To real serious enterprise application, you need this kind of capability. And we have it. The other two are very unique. The first one, we are microservice based. We believe the first wave of solutions for containers native was built on just putting stuff inside a container instead of virtual machine. We think you need to go all the way. We took our technology, and we put it in microservices. This brings us a huge advantage in multiple areas. If you think about it, is one of the reasons people went and adopted containers is all this capability they bring. When you are not implementing the microservices, you are actually losing a lot of this value. The third one is a unique capability, which is our unique IP as well, is what we call data mobility or application mobility. We believe containers, one of the major things people are looking for is mobility. They want to move their stuff between on-prem to the public cloud. They all want to move from one public cloud provider to another. They want to do it quickly. You can do it with containers and with Kubernetes. You cannot move the data. If you move your application from on-prem to the public cloud, data is not with you because storage is not with you. We make it different. What we are offering is this unique IP. When you move the application, by the way everything is application-based in our solution, when you move it, we are moving the kind of metadata we need, which takes a minute or two, and you can start working immediately in the new location. We'll make sure everything happening in the new location, we will move your data in the background. By the way, we move the hot data first and the cold data later. We believe that makes a big difference for hybrid solutions. If you want to run multiple clouds, both on-prem and public, you would like to have the ability to move stuff quickly. It cannot be that you move the application and a week later the data arrives. It just doesn't work. >> There are very definitely latency considerations in there. When you're doing this, do you find that you're presenting this as file, block, object, or does it not matter given that your application-- >> Yes, so the solution we provide to that provides persistent volumes in Kubernetes. It's container native. It actually uses a CSI plug-in to basically deliver persistent volumes to pods that run within Kubernetes. >> So Jacob, when I talk to storage companies today, there are your traditional storage companies, and they're all, "We're moving toward cloud native, "yeah, microservices, we're all in on that stuff." We've seen a resistance in the enterprise to how developer models are going to go in there, how they're going to modernize. And then I've got cloud native people that would just say, "We're built for multi-cloud, and we do this." Where do you fit? What's the industry getting right, and was does differentiate your team? >> So I think let's define container native first, right? I think that's important because everybody says that they're cloud native; if you have a CSI plug-in, people claim, and people are cloud native because you can attach them to Kubernetes. But I think container native has unique value because once you move to Kubernetes, you truly are building a cloud environment where you want all your work, everything to be running inside that Kubernetes cluster. This is really realization of ITS code, right? Where infrastructure is shared, physical resources are shared, and your networking, your applications, and storage are just services that run on top of a physical infrastructure. For us, when we look at container native, the important attribute for container native is that it runs within Kubernetes, it's implemented as containers, and it is orchestrated and scales with Kubernetes. It should not be something that's separate. >> All right, so Ori, you've been in the industry for a while. >> The storage people, they buy on risk. It's like, oh, this cool new stuff it's all nice and everything but it needs to be trusted. While they're interested and they're trying new things, and sure they're going to get Kubernetes in production in the next six months. Why Reduxio, how can they be trusted in this space? >> So I think this is a bit talking about go to market and what we are doing. So we've been engaging to customers from day one, and we're going to to do a peer see in the coming months with I don't know how many of them. I think we learned where the use cases make sense, okay? So, the good news for us is that the market is moving forward as of containers. We don't have like financial institutions, many of them decided strategically they're moving there, they're going to containers. They probably aren't going to do everything on containers, but new staff will go to containers. So those people, I don't have to convince them. When they look around, there's not much. If you want to have storage that is container native, there's not a lot. By the way, most of it is coming from start-ups, if not all of it right now. And they're saying, we went all the way, now we go back and have an external storage, it just doesn't make sense. So those people, anyway, it is a bit new. I'm not fighting for their application they have since the '90s, okay? I don't think they will move many of those into containers. But there is enough that is moving to containers. The other one that I think is important is the use case which are very natural to containers, people already adopt them. I'll name two of them. One is CICD. People are using it to move stuff anyway. They want to have on a public cloud, on a private cloud. They are using Jenkins in many cases. We deliver into Jenkins a solution that is so natural and so valuable to them, it's almost a no-brainer. By the way, it is CICD, so it fails. So restart it, right? It's out of production data at this stage, and if it works, by the way, half a year from now they'll put us in other places. The other thing around is Hadoop. Anything that has to do with data processing, a lot of those people are moving into containers anyway. In a way we are riding with them. They are looking for a solution that will simplify the way they put, they construct their stuff. They want to move easily and have the kind of mobility we talked about. And in a way they are willing to take the risk. And by the way, none of the current incumbent provide 'em any of the solution. Which is the benefit of the small guys. >> Jacob, what's the roll out of this new offering? >> Yes, so what we've announced at KubeCon is that we've started customer evaluations. We expect to start POCs in about three months. So from evaluation to POC it's about three months, and product will be available for production by fall of this year. >> All right, so Ori, I want to give you the final word. Where should people be looking for Reduxio, and what do we expect from the company throughout the year? >> I think in the end of the day, I'm trying to be modest, but I won't. We believe we are in a way the future of storage. Not because we're that smart, because it makes a lot of sense because this is the way the public cloud guys are building their stuff. It has to be cloud native. It has to be container native because that is where the IT is moving to. So in a way, we're saying in the end of the day, storage needs to behave like everybody else. It cannot be the exception. Storage has to be part of the containers ecosystem. We represent the first one, maybe not the first one. There will be others, we're not going to be alone. But we believe the direction we're taking is the direction the storage industry will take. >> Well, Ori and Jacob thanks so much for sharing everything. >> Thank you. >> We know there's always the next new thing, it's going to make everything nice and easy. Some hard work to make sure that storage works right in all these new environments. We look forward to tracking everything. For Corey Quinn, I'm Stu Miniman, we'll be back with more coverage here from KubeCon + CloudNativeCon 2019. Thanks for watching theCUBE. (upbeat music)

>> Narrator: From the Silicon Angle Media office, in Boston, Massachusets. It's The Cube. Now here's you host, Stu Miniman. >> Hi, I'm Stu Miniman and we're coming to you from the Boston area studio here of The Cube. Excited to talk about some of my favorite topics. Talking about the culture, innovation, and really transformation in what's happening in data center. Digital transformation is on everybody's mind. Specifically happy to welcome Mike Grandinetti who is the Chief Marketing and Corporate Strategy Officer with Reduxio. Mike, thanks so much for joining us. >> Stu, thank you so much for having me. Great to be out here with you today. >> Alright, so you're a local guy? >> Mike: Yeah. >> We're glad that you could join us here. Before we jump into the company tells a little about your background, what you worked on, what brought you to Reduxio. >> In a nutshell I guess my background is all about innovation. I've sort of eat, breathe and slept innovation for the last 25 years of my career. So I started off as an engineer in Silicon Valley with HP back when Bill and Dave were still around. At a time when it was America's most admired company. Was a remarkable sort of introduction to what is possible. Went back, got my MBA, did several years at McKinzie doing corporate strategy consulting. Mostly around innovation related projects. And then I moved up here to Boston to be a part of the first of what is now eight consecutive enterprise venture capital backed start ups. And I've been lucky enough that two of those went public on the NASDAQ. The prior seven have all been acquired by companies like AT&T and Oracle. And now Reduxio is my eighth start up. We're really having a great time building this business. >> Great, we're definitely going to big into some of the innovations of Redux I O. >> Yes. >> So the name kind of tells itself. We've seen a few companies with the I O at the end. We've talked so much that when we've talked about kind of 2018 data is at the center of everything. Really what is driving business. So for an audience that hasn't run across Reduxio kind of give us the why and the what. >> Yeah, and so to your point, data's driving everything. Mark Andressen famously said software's eating the world. I think if we were to update that it's data is eating the world. And so I think you and I have had this discussion off camera. Whether it's fair or not, I think it's true. And it needs to be stated that the amount of innovation that has occurred in the storage industry over the last 20 years, has been disappointing at best. The solutions that have evolved have evolved in an extremely fragmented way. They are over, way too complex. They're way too expensive. And because it's a collection of piece parts, you've got to manage multiple screens, multiple learning curves. And a lot of things fall through the cracks. So when you go and look at some of the research data from a wide range of analysts, what you hear from them is there's this extraordinary lack of confidence that even though I've spend a ton of money, invested a lot of staff time and attention to building out this infrastructure, very lacking in confidence that I'm actually going to get that data back when I need it. So it's the old adage, it's time to fix it. So this is exactly what the founders of Reduxio saw. They were looking at this evolutionary path and saying people are just making it worse. So they did what many people would condsider to be radical. They threw out the entire playbook of what storage architecture has been and they took a clean sheet of paper, design centric approach. What are the use cases? Where are we in the world with regard to technology? And how do we design and experience for storage admin or BD admin or a person in the dev center that doesn't require a PhD in storage? And so that's kind of what the premise was. >> Yeah, so many things there that there are to dig into. Absolutely. I live, I worked for one of the storage companies for a decade. Absolutely complexity is how we would describe it. And what companies are looking for today, is they need simplicity. They need to focus on the business. Turing dials and worrying about do I have enough capacity? Do I have enough performance? Do I have enough of those things, is not what drives the business. >> Mike: Exactly. >> They need to focus on their applications. The bit flip we saw in big data, and we can argue whether or not big data was hype or whatever we had there, but it was oh my gosh I'm getting all this data to oh my gosh I have all of this data and therefore I can do more things, I can find more value. >> Mike: Absolutely. >> I worry a little bit when I hear things like oh, the storage admin. >> Yeah. >> The storage admin's job before was how to I triage and kind of deal with those issues? Many solutions now you look at the wave of hyper convergence. Let's push that to a cloud architect or the virtualization layer. How do we start with a clean slate and get out of the storage business and get into the data business? >> Mike: I love it. So I'm going to bring you back ten years to one of the most remarkable product introductions that has ever been conducted on this planet. It was the introduction of the iPhone. And if you recall in those first five minutes that Steve Jobs took the stage in a way that only Steve Jobs could. He went onto tease the audience by saying that we are going to be introducing three products today. And then over the next minute or two became clear that it wasn't three products, it was one very innovative product at the time. The iPhone. What they basically did is they integrated these three previously disparate pieces of technology. Certainly the mobile phone but also a music player and an internet navigator. Behind this gorgeous revolutionary user interface. So what we've tried to do is take a page out of the Job's iPhone innovation. We're integrating. And Forrester Research has written an incredible report about this and others, IDC and others, have consistently supported it. Chris Malore from the Register has written about this at length as well. Reduxio is integrating primary and secondary storage along with built in data protection. So those previously siloed capabilities are now one. We're also, like Jobs did, when you looked at the old style smart phone, the BlackBerry and the Trio and the- ya know all of those things that had all of those keyboards, is we've created a user interface using game designers so when our customers go home at night and they log into Reduxio, their little kids will say, hey dad what game are you playing? And dad will say, I'm not playing a game. I'm actually working on Reduxio. And so what that's done for us I think is it's allowed us to be able to drop a Reduxio system into any number of use cases with someone who may not have the luxury of being deep in storage. And literally get time to value that they put production workloads on the system that day. >> It's interesting, another piece that I'll draw from your analogy is when you talk about how did Apple take all of those pieces. And it's kind of certain technologies moving along. But there's one specific technology that really helped drive that adoption. And it's Flash. >> Mike: Yes. >> And the consumer adoption of Flash ten years ago drove the wave that we've seen in enterprise storage. >> Right. >> So help connect the dots for us, because we look at- I remember a decade ago primary to secondary storage oh I'll give you a big eleven refrigerator size cabinet and you can do both. >> Mike: Right, sure. >> But I put expensive stuff here, I put cheap stuff here. I used the software to put it together. I'm assuming I can consolidate it down and I think Flash has something to do with it. >> Yeah, and so it's a multi tiered system. The array itself. It's an appliance. And obviously most of the value is in the software. There's a management platform that allows us to peer deep into the data. But everything is time stamped and indexed. So we have a global view of the data. And you can tier it, the most hot data very mission critical, business app data, goes to Flash. Secondary data can go to spinning disk or now we can archive to the cloud. Specifically any S3 target, Amazon or any S3 target. But what I think makes it very relevant is we've illuminated the notion of snapshotting. So we've built something that we call the time OS or the time operating system. And it's a time machine for your data. What happens is rather than incur that incredible burden of having to schedule snapshots, that only requires you at another incredible heroic effort to bring the data back, you have continuous data protection. I can go back at any point in time and literally with a very graphical screen point and say I want to bring data back from two seconds ago. And one of our best examples of that is we had a customer who had been attacked, has suffered from a ransomware attack. They went down for a week, they went down hard for a week. And they came and found Reduxio. They got attacked again. And the second time around they lost only two minutes of data. And the recovery time was 20 minutes. So this is what we enable you to do. By being able to give you access to wherever you're data may be, anywhere in the world, you can- we're approaching near zero RPO and RTO. >> Mike, there's been a number of companies that come and said data protection's been broken. We've been hearing that for a while. I think right down the road from us, like Tiffeo, company that looked at data management. Companies like Cohesity and Rubric, have quite a bit of buzz. Give us a little compare, contrast how Redxio looks at it verses some of those other- >> Yeah, and I'd say again, for anybody watching I think the Forrester Research Report outlines Reduxio, Cohesity and Rubric, right? And of course Cohesity and Rubric are doing an extraordinary job. They're scaling rapidly. They've got world class in Silicon Valley money in the company. They've got a world class client base. I think the primary difference is that we are bringing that third component. We're integrating primary storage along with secondary storage in data protection. Both of them are focusing just on the secondary and the data protection. We take issue architecturally with the fact that you've got to make additional copies. We take issue with the fact that the way they're approaching this actually they're in some ways exacerbating the problem because they're creating more data. But at the same time, they're also, for a given amount of capability two to three times the cost. So what we're hearing from a lot of our customers and our vars that sell both is they're walking into a lot of more, let's call them price sensitive accounts. Where they don't believe that the incremental value of what Cohesity or Rubric is offering is easily justifiable. There's going to be some pretty extreme use cases to justify a $300,000 initial investment as you go into the data center. >> Another piece, when I talk to companies today, one of the biggest challenges they have is really figuring out what their strategy is and how that fits. You talked about tiering and how the cloud fits into it, but how does Reduxio fit in that overall cloud strategy for companies today? >> Again, it's very early in our product evolution and so with version three which we announced back in late June, we allow companies to archive to the cloud. But do instantaneous recovery from the cloud. So we have two capabilities. One is called no migrate. So there's no longer a need to migrate data. So you were at the Amazon invent show and you saw the snowmobile get rolled out. And the reason that Amazon rolled that snowmobile and at first I thought it was a joke, is because it takes an incredible amount of time and effort to move data from one data center to the next. Reduxio has this no migrate capability where if I need to move data from that data center, I set that data in motion. And I don't know if you're a Trekkie or not, but you remember the teleporter? In version three we've created a teleporter. You can move that data from the cloud and although it may take a long time for that data to actually get to its target, you can start working on that app as if that data had already been migrated. When we run usability tests, and I remember one of them very specifically. And I know that you speak a little bit of Hebrew. I speak zero Hebrew. But I can remember watching one of our Israeli customers seeing this happen and this visceral reaction, like oh my god, I can't believe they did that. So we're trying to bring that end to end ease of use experience to managing and protecting your data wherever it may be. Bringing it back with almost zero RPOs, zero RTO. >> Mike, one of the questions, I've been talking to a number of CMOs lately, and just you've worked for a number of start ups. Today, digital transformations on the mind, what's the changing role of the CMO today? What have you seen the last five to ten years that's different and exciting? >> It's a great question. And I'd say that, and again, I did my first start up in 1991. So I can't begin to tell you how much high tech marketing has changed. But everything changed with social, digital and inbound marketing. It used to be that the sales team was responsible for filling the funnel. It is very clear that is an incredibly non scalable unproductive effort. And so we now are all about acquiring high quality prospects. We're a hub spot shop. We're a highly automated shop. And we are very biased toward digital and social. Is doesn't mean that we're not going to events and things like that but we feel that the way that we're going to scale this business, especially when we compete against big guys like Dell EMC and HP and others, there's no way that we can go person to person. So I'm not a very big fan of cold calling. I'm not a very big fan of going to trade shows. And collecting business cards in fish bowls and giving away tee shirts. We really believe that our customers are too busy, the know what they need when they need it. They've built a fortress around themselves. They're getting hammered. Just like I'm a CMO. And I must get 150 LinkedIn inmails and emails a day telling me about the next great lead management service. I can't even imagine what our customers are putting up with. So our job is to find relevant personas with highly relevant content at the moment that that is relevant to them. And there's many ways to do that, but this is really what we have to do with the data. >> So, Mike, at the beginning of the conversation we talked a little bit about innovation. >> Mike: Yes. >> Those of us that have been in a while, they're too many peers of mine that I think if you say the word innovation they roll their eyes. You have the great opportunity, you're working with master students around the globe, talk to us the people coming out of those programs. What does innovation mean today? What are they looking for, from a career standpoint? >> It's a great question. I think you and I could probably go for the next three hours on this subject so we'll have to be careful. >> We'll make sure to post on the website the expanded audio. >> Okay, but I mean innovation is such an overused word. And most companies really can't spell it and they can't spell it because their culture doesn't allow for it. So first and foremost, I think any innovative company or any innovative team starts with a culture that is all about trying to manage at the bleeding edge of best practices and really understand what's current. I have the blessing of being both the Chief Marketing and Corporate Strategy Officer of Reduxio and a global professor of innovation entrepreneurship at the Hult International School of Business. I teach between 1,200 and 1,500 students a year. I teach them courses in entrepreneurship, in innovation, in digital marketing. And I run hackathons on campus. We do a lot of events that give me an insight into who's passionate about innovation. And it's one thing to think innovation is interesting, because you can get a good job. It's another thing to actually have the comfort level of living in a world of ambiguity and high velocity. So a lot of it is, I'm looking for students that really want to sort of push the envelope. And they exhibit that in the classroom, they exhibit that in hackathons. They exhibit that in some of the internships that we take. They exhibit it by getting certified on HubSpot. Without me telling them to. Getting certified on Idio without me telling them to. Going to conferences. Learning. And then me learning from them. Because nobody can know everything. It's just so much new stuff going on right now. I've now got a team of 11 people and nine of them were my former students. I had a chance to observe them in action over 18 months and they're world class. And they have that innovation gene in their DNA. We're really at a point where I'm learning from them everyday. It's a very symbiotic relationship. >> Mike, for closing comments, I want to give you the opportunity, people find out more about Reduxio. What should we be looking for in 2018? >> Yeah, and so again, the one thing is will say is we are now at 200 distinct customers. We have in a very short period of time, and you know, when you sell into the data center people don't have a real sense of humor. It's pretty important that the stuff works. So the first thing I would say is we've gotten to that point now where we've got a lot of very significant customer references across websites and a lot of peer review sites. So we're now, so 2018 is building on that foundation. I think what you're going to see from us is couple of very radically innovative new projects. One a software only project. That will allow us to drive an inflection point in growth. By making available some of our core capabilities to anybody. Whether they own a Reduxio system or not. We really want to go big now. We've validated the architecture. We've got some great early indications from the market that this stuff works as advertised. Our customers are telling us we're simplifying their lives, we're making them more productive. And 2018 is about to really kick this thing into high gear. >> Stu: Mike Grandinetti, pleasure chatting with you. Thanks so much for sharing. And thank you for watching The Cube. >> Mike: Great. (upbeat music)

>> Live from Barcelona, Spain, it's theCUBE. Covering KubeCon CloudNativeCon, Europe, 2019. Brought to you by Red Hat, the CloudNative Computing Foundation and ecosystem partners. >> Welcome back, we're at the end of two days, wall-to-wall coverage here at KubeCon CloudNativeCon here in Barcelona, Spain. I'm Stu Miniman, my co-host for two days has been Corey Quinn. Corey, we've gone two days, it's five years of Kubernetes, and everybody's been wondering when are you going to sing happy birthday to Fippy and the Kubernetes team? >> Generally, no one wants to hear me sing more than once, because first, I don't have a great singing voice, but more importantly, I insist on calling it Corey-oki, and it just doesn't resonate with people. The puns don't land as well as you'd hope they would. >> Maybe not singing, but you are a master of limericks, I'm told. >> So they tell me, most are unprintable, but that's a separate argument for another time. >> Alright, so, Corey this is your first time at KubeCon. >> It is. >> In CloudNativeCon, we've done some analysis segments, I thought we've had some phenomenal guests, some great end-users, some thought leaders, >> We had some great times. >> You need to pick your favorite right now. >> Oh, everyone's going to pick their own favorite on this one, but I've got to say it was, it would have to be, hands down, Abby Fuller, from AWS. Not that I didn't enjoy all of our guests -- >> Is it because you have AWS on your Lapel pin, and that secretly you do work for Amazon? >> Hardly, just the opposite, in fact. It's that, given that my newsletter makes fun of AWS on a near constant basis, whenever someone says Oh, there's going to be a public thing with Corey and someone from AWS, half the people there are like, Oh, this is going to be good, and the other half turn ghost white and Oh, no, no, this is going to go awfully. And, I'll be honest, it's been a day now, I still don't know which it was, but we had fun. >> Yeah, so, Abby was phenomenal, loved having her on the program, I'm a sucker for the real transformational stories, I tell you Jeff Brewer from Intuit, there's been many times I do a show and I do like, the first interview, and I'm like, I can go home. Here we hear a company that we know, both of us have used this technology, and really walks us through how that transformation happens, some of the organizational things. They've brought some software in and they're contributing to it, so just many aspects of what I look at in a company that's modernizing and going through those pieces. And those kinds of stories always get me excited. >> That story was incredible, and in fact it's almost starting to turn into a truth and labeling issue, for lack of a better term, because this is the Cloudnative Foundation, the software is designed for things that were more or less born in the cloud, and now we're hearing this entire series of stories on transitioning in. And it almost feels like that's not native anymore, that's effectively something that is migrating in. And that's fantastic, it's a sign of maturity, it's great to see. And it's strange to think of that, that in the terms of the software itself is absolutely Cloudnative, it's not at all clear that the companies that are working with this are themselves. And that's okay, that's not a terrible thing. There was some snark from the keynote today about, here's a way to run web logic in Kubernetes, and half the audience was looking at this with a, Eeee, why would I ever want to do that? Because you're running web logic and you need to continue to run web logic, and you can either sit there and make fun of people, you can help them get to a different place than they are now that helps their business become more agile and improves velocity, but I don't think you can effectively do both. >> Yeah, Corey, anything that's over than 5 years old why would you ever want to do that? Because you must always do things the brand new way. Oh wait, let's consider this for a second, lift and shift is something that I cringe a little bit when I hear it because there's too many times that I would hear a customer say I did this, and I hadn't fully planned out how I was doing it, and then I clawed it back because it was neither cheap nor easy, I swiped that credit card and it wasn't what I expected. >> Yeah, I went ahead and decided to run on a cloud provider now my infrastructure runs on someone else's infrastructure, and then a few months go by, and the transition doesn't happen right, I was wrong, it's not running on someone else's infrastructure, it's running on money. What do I do? And that became something that was interesting for a lot of companies, and painful as well. You can do that, but you need to plan the second shift phase to take longer than you think it will, you will not recoup savings in the time frame you probably expect to, but that's okay because it's usually not about that. It's a capability story. >> I had hoped that we learned as an industry. You might remember the old phrase, my mess for less? By outsourcing, and then we'll, Oh wait, I put it in an environment, they don't really understand my business, I can't make changes in the way I want, I need to insource now my knowledge to be able to work close with the business, and therefore no matter where I put my valuable code, my valuable information and I run stuff, I'm responsible for it and even if I move it there as a first step, I need to make sure how do I actually optimize it for that environment from a cost savings, there's lots of things that I can to change those kind of things. >> The one cautionary tale I'm picking up from a lot of these stories has been that you need to make sure the people you're talking to, and the trusted advisors that you have are aligned with your incentives, not their own. No matter where you go, there's an entire sea of companies that are thrilled and lined up to sell you something. And that's not inherently a bad thing, but you need to understand that whenever you're having those conversations, there's a potential conflict of interest. Not necessarily an actual one, but pay attention. You can partner with someone, but at some point your interests do diverge. >> Okay, Corey, what other key learnings or sound bites did you get from some of our speakers this week? >> There were an awful lot of them. I think that's the first time I've ever seen, for example, a project having pieces removed from it, Tiller, in this case, and a bunch of people clapped and cheered. They've been ripped out of Helm, it's oh awesome, normally the only time you see something get ripped out and people cheer is when they finally fire that person you work with. Usually, that person is me, then everyone claps and cheers, which, frankly, if you've met me, that makes sense. For software, it's less common. But we saw that, we saw two open-source projects merging. >> Yeah. >> We had, it was-- >> Open telemetry is the new piece. >> With open senses and open tracing combining, you don't often see that done in anything approaching a responsible way, but we've seen it now. And there's been a lot of people a little miffed that there weren't a whole bunch of new features and services and what not launched today. That's a sign of maturity. It means that there's a stability story that is now being told. And I think that that's something that's very easy to overlook if you're interested in a pure development perspective. >> Just to give a little bit of a cautionary piece there, we had Mark Shuttleworth on the program, he said Look, there are certain emperors walking around the show floor that have no clothes on. Had Tim talking, Joe Beta, and Gabe Monroy on, some of the earliest people working on Kubernetes and they said Look, five years in, we've reached a certain level of maturity, but Tim Hoggin was like, we have so much to do, our sigs are overrunning with what I need to do now, so don't think we can declare success, cut the cake, eat the donuts, grab the t-shirt, and say great let's go on to the next great thing because there is so much more yet to do. >> There's absolutely a consulting opportunity for someone to set up shop and call it imperial tailoring. Where they're going around and helping these people realize that yes, you've come an incredibly long way, but there is so much more work to be done, there is such a bright future. Now I would not call myself a screaming advocate for virtually any technology, I hope. I think that Kubernetes absolutely has it's place. I don't think it's a Penesea, and I don't think that it is going to necessarily be the right fit for every work load. I think that most people, once you get them calmed down, and the adrenaline has worn off, would largely agree with that sentiment. But that nuance often gets lost in a world of tweets, it's a nuanced discussion that doesn't lend itself well to rapid fire, quick sound bites. >> Corey, another thing I know that is near and dear to your heart they brought in diversity scholarships. >> Yes. >> So 56 people got their pass and travel paid for to come here. There's really good, People in the community are very welcoming, yet in the same breath, when they talked about the numbers, and Cheryl was up on stage saying only three percent of the people contributing and making changes were women. And so, therefore, we still have work to do to make sure that, you've mentioned a couple of times on the program. >> Absolutely, and it is incredibly important, but one of the things that gives me some of the most hope for that is how many companies or organizations would run numbers like that and realize that three percent of their contributors are women, and then mention it during a keynote. That's almost unheard of for an awful lot of companies, instead they wind up going and holding that back. One company we don't need to name, wound up trying to keep that from coming out in a court case as a trade secret, of all things. And that's generally, depressingly, what you would often expect. The fact that they called it out, and the fact that they are having a diversity scholarship program, they are looking at actively at ways to solve this problem is I think the right answer. I certainly don't know what the fix is going to be for any of this, but something has to happen, and the fact that they are not sitting around waiting for the problem to fix itself, they're not casting blame around a bunch of different directions is inspirational. I'm probably not the best person to talk on this, but the issue is, you're right, it is very important to me and it is something that absolutely needs to be addressed. I'm very encouraged by the conversations we had with Cheryl Hung and several other people these last couple of days, and I'm very eager to see where it goes next. >> Okay, Corey, what about any things you've been hearing in the back channel, hallway conversations, any concerns out there? The one from my standpoint where I say, well, security is something that for most of my career was top of mine, and bottom of budget, and from day one, when you talk about containers and everything, security is there. There are a number of companies in this space that are starting to target it, but there's not a lot of VC money coming into this space, and there are concerns about how much real focus there will be to make sure security in this ecosystem is there. Every single platform that this is going to live in, whether you talk the public clouds, talk about companies like Red Hat, and everybody else here, security is a big piece of their message and their focus, but from a CNCF if there was one area that I didn't hear enough about at this show, I thought it might be storage, but feels like we are making progress there, so security's the one I come out with and say I want to know more, I want to see more. >> One thing that I thought was interesting is we spoke to Reduxio earlier, and they were talking about one of their advantages was that they are quote enterprise grade, and normally to me that means we have slides with war and peace written on every one. And instead what they talked about was they have not just security built into this, but they have audit ability, they have an entire, they have data lifecycle policies, they have a level of maturity that is necessary if we're going to start winning some of these serious enterprise and regulated workloads. So, there are companies active in this space. But I agree with you, I think that it is not been a primary area of focus. But if you look at how quickly this entire, I will call it a Kubernetes revolution, because anything else takes on religious overtones, it's been such a fast Twitch type of environment that security does get left behind, because it's never a concern or a priority until it's too late. And then it becomes a giant horses left, barn door's been closed story, and I hope we don't have to learn that. >> So, MultiCloud, Corey, have you changed your mind? >> I don't think so, I still maintain that MultiCloud within the absence of a business reason is not a best practice. I think that if you need to open that door for business reasons then Kubernetes is not a terrible way to go about achieving it. But I do question whether it's something everyone needs to put into their system design principles on day one. >> Okay, must companies be born CloudNative, or can they mature into a CloudNative, or we should be talking a different term maybe? >> I don't know if it's a terminology issue, we've certainly seen companies that were born in on-prem environments where the classic example of this is Capital One. They are absolutely going all in on public cloud, they have been very public about how they're doing it. Transformation is possible, it runs on money and it takes a lot more time and effort than anyone thinks it's going to, but as long as you have the right incentives and the right reason to do things it absolutely becomes possible. That said, it is potentially easier, if you're born in the cloud, to a point. If you get ossified into existing patterns and don't pay attention to what's happening, you look at these companies that are 20 years old, and oh they're so backwards they'll never catch up. If you live that long, that will be you someday. So it's very important to not stop paying attention to what the larger ecosystem is doing, because you don't want to be the only person responsible for levels of your stack that you don't want to have to be responsible for. >> Alright, want to give you the final word. Corey, any final things, any final questions for me? >> Fundamentally I think that this has been an incredible event. Where we've had great conversations with people who are focused on an awful lot of different things. There are still a bunch of open questions. I still, for example, think that Serverless is being viewed entirely too much through a lens of functions as a service, but I'm curious as far as what you took away from this. What did you learn this trip that you didn't expect to learn? >> So, it's interesting when we talk about the changing world of OpenSource. There's been some concern lately that what's happening in the public cloud, well, maybe OpenSource will be imploding. Well, it really doesn't feel that way to me when you talk at this show, we've actually used the line a couple of times, Kubernetes is people. It is not the vendors jested, >> Internet of flesh. >> There are people here. We've all seen people that we know that have passions for what they are doing, and that goes above and beyond where they live. And in this community it is project first, and the company you work for is second or third consideration in there. So, there's this groundswell of activity, we're big believers of the world can be changed if, I don't need everybody's full time commitment, if you could just take two percent of the US's watching of TV in a single year, you could build Wikipedia. Clay Sharky, one of my greats that I love from those environments, we believe that the network and communities really can make huge efforts and it's great to see tech for good and for progress and many of the outcomes of that we see here is refreshingly uplifting to kind of pull us out of some of the day-to-day things that we think about sometimes. >> Absolutely, I think that you're right, it has to come from people, it has to come from community, and so far I'm seeing a lot of encouraging signs. One thing that I do find slightly troubling that may or may not resolve itself is that we're still seeing CloudNative defined in terms of what it's not. That said, this is theCUBE, I am not Stu Miniman. >> Well, I am Stu Miniman, you are Corey Quinn. Corey, how's it been two days on theCUBE wall-to-wall through all these things, ready for a nap or fly home? >> I'm ready to call it a week, absolutely. I'm somewhat surprised that at no point have you hit me. And one of these days I am sure we will cross that border. >> Well, definitely, I try not to have any video or photo evidence of that, but thank you Corey, so much. We do have to make a big shout out, first and foremost to the CloudNative Computing Foundation without their partnership, we would not be able to come here. And we do have sponsorship if you look on the lower thirds of the videos you will see our headline sponsor for this show has been Red Hat. Obviously strong commitment in this community, and will be with us here and also in San Diego for KubeCon. Additional shout out to Cisco, Canonical, and Reduxio for their sponsorship here. And all the people that put on this show here, it's a big community, our team. So I want to make a big shout out to my boys here, coming in I've got Pat, Seth, flying in from the West Coast as well as the Tony Day crew Tony, Steve, and John. Thank you guys, beautiful set here, love the gimble with the logo. Branding here, lot's of spectacle, and we always say check out thecube.com to see all the replays as well, see where we will be, reach out with any questions, and thank you as always, for watching theCUBE. (upbeat jingle)