>> Live from Barcelona, Spain, it's theCUBE, covering KubeCon + CloudNativeCon Europe 2019. Brought to you by Red Hat, the Cloud Native Computing Foundation, and ecosystem partners. >> Welcome back. This is theCUBE's live coverage of KubeCon + CloudNativeCon 2019 here in Barcelona, Spain. I'm Stu Miniman, my cohost is Corey Quinn. Happy to welcome to the program two first-time guests, a company we've had on the program, Reduxio. But some changes have been going on, as have been in the industry. Sitting to my right is Ori Bendori, who is the CEO of the company. Sitting to his right is Jacob Cherian, who is the CMO and vice president of product. Gentlemen, thanks so much for joining us. >> Thank you. >> Thank you for having us. >> One of the things that I've really enjoyed at this conference is, it is a global conference. The CNCF puts on three pieces of it, but this one definitely has a very European flavor. You gentlemen are coming to us from Israel. Ori, let's start with you. Just give us the update, kind of the quick, the who and the why and the what of Reduxio. >> Okay. So we are a storage and data management company, and where we are aiming is having Kubernetes native, containers native, cloud native solution. We have some unique capabilities. And actually we are getting ourself to the public this exhibition, so it's very important for us. We've been developing it for the last year, so this is the first time we announce that we have a new product that is container native, headed to clouds, and very unique. >> So Jacob, we actually had an analyst on earlier and he said, "The thing about this space is, "we're talking it's stateless, "it's trussless, it's codeless. "That doesn't mean I can't deal "with those environments, "they all have some challenges when you talk about storage." I mean those of us that know storage, it's a complicated thing. I loved the presentation this morning, and the key note was it's turtles all the way down. There's a lot of complexity inside storage and that doesn't go away, and sometimes we're trying to make this world no less complicated than storage would be outside of it, as I guess an industry thing. How is Reduxio helping us solve that? >> So as customers move applications from traditional infrastructures to storage, to containerized infrastructure, I think the expectation is that these customers would expect the same capability that they had with the existing storage systems in the container native storage. Because why would a customer move their applications to an environment that's less capable? And our focus is to deliver storage that is enterprise grade, where customers feel comfortable for moving their business-critical applications from the traditional environment into a container environment. >> You mentioned a few minutes ago that this is, you have something very unique that you've been working on for a year and are now deploying into the marketplace. In your conversations with customers, what unmet need did you wind up seeing and what differentiates you from other options people could go with? >> Thank you. I think we're talking about three things. The most important thing, the first one, as Jacob was describing, is we are enterprise grade. We have the full set of data management and storage capability, which we believe some of our customers do not have. We believe containers are moving to production. To real serious enterprise application, you need this kind of capability. And we have it. The other two are very unique. The first one, we are microservice based. We believe the first wave of solutions for containers native was built on just putting stuff inside a container instead of virtual machine. We think you need to go all the way. We took our technology, and we put it in microservices. This brings us a huge advantage in multiple areas. If you think about it, is one of the reasons people went and adopted containers is all this capability they bring. When you are not implementing the microservices, you are actually losing a lot of this value. The third one is a unique capability, which is our unique IP as well, is what we call data mobility or application mobility. We believe containers, one of the major things people are looking for is mobility. They want to move their stuff between on-prem to the public cloud. They all want to move from one public cloud provider to another. They want to do it quickly. You can do it with containers and with Kubernetes. You cannot move the data. If you move your application from on-prem to the public cloud, data is not with you because storage is not with you. We make it different. What we are offering is this unique IP. When you move the application, by the way everything is application-based in our solution, when you move it, we are moving the kind of metadata we need, which takes a minute or two, and you can start working immediately in the new location. We'll make sure everything happening in the new location, we will move your data in the background. By the way, we move the hot data first and the cold data later. We believe that makes a big difference for hybrid solutions. If you want to run multiple clouds, both on-prem and public, you would like to have the ability to move stuff quickly. It cannot be that you move the application and a week later the data arrives. It just doesn't work. >> There are very definitely latency considerations in there. When you're doing this, do you find that you're presenting this as file, block, object, or does it not matter given that your application-- >> Yes, so the solution we provide to that provides persistent volumes in Kubernetes. It's container native. It actually uses a CSI plug-in to basically deliver persistent volumes to pods that run within Kubernetes. >> So Jacob, when I talk to storage companies today, there are your traditional storage companies, and they're all, "We're moving toward cloud native, "yeah, microservices, we're all in on that stuff." We've seen a resistance in the enterprise to how developer models are going to go in there, how they're going to modernize. And then I've got cloud native people that would just say, "We're built for multi-cloud, and we do this." Where do you fit? What's the industry getting right, and was does differentiate your team? >> So I think let's define container native first, right? I think that's important because everybody says that they're cloud native; if you have a CSI plug-in, people claim, and people are cloud native because you can attach them to Kubernetes. But I think container native has unique value because once you move to Kubernetes, you truly are building a cloud environment where you want all your work, everything to be running inside that Kubernetes cluster. This is really realization of ITS code, right? Where infrastructure is shared, physical resources are shared, and your networking, your applications, and storage are just services that run on top of a physical infrastructure. For us, when we look at container native, the important attribute for container native is that it runs within Kubernetes, it's implemented as containers, and it is orchestrated and scales with Kubernetes. It should not be something that's separate. >> All right, so Ori, you've been in the industry for a while. >> The storage people, they buy on risk. It's like, oh, this cool new stuff it's all nice and everything but it needs to be trusted. While they're interested and they're trying new things, and sure they're going to get Kubernetes in production in the next six months. Why Reduxio, how can they be trusted in this space? >> So I think this is a bit talking about go to market and what we are doing. So we've been engaging to customers from day one, and we're going to to do a peer see in the coming months with I don't know how many of them. I think we learned where the use cases make sense, okay? So, the good news for us is that the market is moving forward as of containers. We don't have like financial institutions, many of them decided strategically they're moving there, they're going to containers. They probably aren't going to do everything on containers, but new staff will go to containers. So those people, I don't have to convince them. When they look around, there's not much. If you want to have storage that is container native, there's not a lot. By the way, most of it is coming from start-ups, if not all of it right now. And they're saying, we went all the way, now we go back and have an external storage, it just doesn't make sense. So those people, anyway, it is a bit new. I'm not fighting for their application they have since the '90s, okay? I don't think they will move many of those into containers. But there is enough that is moving to containers. The other one that I think is important is the use case which are very natural to containers, people already adopt them. I'll name two of them. One is CICD. People are using it to move stuff anyway. They want to have on a public cloud, on a private cloud. They are using Jenkins in many cases. We deliver into Jenkins a solution that is so natural and so valuable to them, it's almost a no-brainer. By the way, it is CICD, so it fails. So restart it, right? It's out of production data at this stage, and if it works, by the way, half a year from now they'll put us in other places. The other thing around is Hadoop. Anything that has to do with data processing, a lot of those people are moving into containers anyway. In a way we are riding with them. They are looking for a solution that will simplify the way they put, they construct their stuff. They want to move easily and have the kind of mobility we talked about. And in a way they are willing to take the risk. And by the way, none of the current incumbent provide 'em any of the solution. Which is the benefit of the small guys. >> Jacob, what's the roll out of this new offering? >> Yes, so what we've announced at KubeCon is that we've started customer evaluations. We expect to start POCs in about three months. So from evaluation to POC it's about three months, and product will be available for production by fall of this year. >> All right, so Ori, I want to give you the final word. Where should people be looking for Reduxio, and what do we expect from the company throughout the year? >> I think in the end of the day, I'm trying to be modest, but I won't. We believe we are in a way the future of storage. Not because we're that smart, because it makes a lot of sense because this is the way the public cloud guys are building their stuff. It has to be cloud native. It has to be container native because that is where the IT is moving to. So in a way, we're saying in the end of the day, storage needs to behave like everybody else. It cannot be the exception. Storage has to be part of the containers ecosystem. We represent the first one, maybe not the first one. There will be others, we're not going to be alone. But we believe the direction we're taking is the direction the storage industry will take. >> Well, Ori and Jacob thanks so much for sharing everything. >> Thank you. >> We know there's always the next new thing, it's going to make everything nice and easy. Some hard work to make sure that storage works right in all these new environments. We look forward to tracking everything. For Corey Quinn, I'm Stu Miniman, we'll be back with more coverage here from KubeCon + CloudNativeCon 2019. Thanks for watching theCUBE. (upbeat music)

>> Live from Las Vegas. It's theCUBE. Covering VM World 2018. Brought to you by VMware and Adziko System partners. >> Welcome back to the Mandalay Bay everybody in Las Vegas. My name is Dave Vellante, I'm here with David Floyer. This is day three of our wall to wall coverage of VMworld 2018. We've got two sets here in the VM Village. 94 guests this week. It's a record for the CUBE. Thanks so much for watching. I've been in this business as long as Pat Gelsinger and ever since I've been in this business people have said, "oh infrastructure's dying", and you know what, storage is the gift that keeps on giving. And I just, we love the conversations. Guys from Infinidat are here. Jacob Broido is the Chief Product Officer and Neville Yates is the Senior Director of Data Protection Solutions at Infinidat. Gentlemen, welcome to theCUBE. Happy VMworld 2018. >> Thank you >> Thank you >> All right Jacob, I'm going to start with you. >> Okay. >> So we have seen Infinidat come in. You're basically competing with all flash arrays, you're faster than Flash, and that's your sort of tag line. So you have this system designed for primary storage and then all of a sudden, you know last summer, around last summer, maybe it was the fall. We see you guys entering the data protection market with essentially the same architecture. How is it that you can take a system that's designed for primary storage faster than Flash, and then point it at data protection. Help us understand. >> That's a great question. So, it all starts with the fact that we designed our system to work with mixed workloads. And primary storage being our first keypoint, but the design and architecture supposed to work with any type of workload. And what we started seeing in the field is that our customers first displaced a lot of incumbent primary storage on us. And then we started seeing them putting backup workloads as well, and data protection workloads on our systems as well, and coming back and saying that this works amazingly led to more of that. This basically led us to a point of expanding on that strategy and introducing additional products and services. The key point for us in this was that it was remarkably easy for us to introduce additional capabilities because of the solid technical and architectural foundation. We're very fast. Our financial model enables us to do and go after the data protection market efficiently, and we're seeing this in the field. >> So Neville help us, paint a picture for us. You've got a long history in the data protection market. You were involved in disrupting tape, you've been a consultant in this space working with customers. What's the market sort of look like, the sort of available market for you guys? >> So when Jacob refers to the expansion into data protection, we took this technology as Jacob describes the InfiniBox, and we didn't just expand in one direction. We expanded in two directions, multi-direct, with the introduction of of InfiniSync, which is a means by which critical applications can enable a recovery point of zero, Jacob will go into more details on that. And then at the other end of the spectrum, we deliver a deploying InfiniGuard. Based on the same technology that Jacob described as the core, we're now able to be the target of factual re-enter, the typical grandfather/father/son, every 24-hours you do a backup, you do an incremental. And with deduplication as a front end to the core storage, now we've got a coverage across a data protection spectrum that nobody else can match. Recovery point of zero, leveraging replication technologies that Jacob will expand upon in a minute, Snap technology internal to InfiniBox, integrated with backup applications such as the dash-board management is all consistent, and then further down the spectrum, the InfiniGuard itself, dealing with the traditional kind of data protection schemes. A complete spectrum coverage. Nobody else can deliver it. Built on that technology core to the InfinityBox storage itself. >> So you got the full pyramid covered with the same fundamental architecture. But Jacob, you can't just throw the Box at data protection, you have to bring in other features, you got to be best of breed. So maybe you can talk a little bit about, double-click on some of those. >> Sure. So it all starts with kind of base foundation for our data protection that is InfiniSnaps. It's our snapshot core engine which from day one, we designed to work at multi-petabyte scale, and for us what that means is that you need to support hundred-thousands of snapshots and up to multiple millions. That's by design how we designed the system. But not only that, you have to have zero impact on performance. If you look at our systems in the field, our customers are doing thousands of snapshots per day. Some are doing tens of thousands or more per day with no performance impact, that's not even measurable on any of their performance graphs. This is the foundational technology on which we have built our forward looking additional data protection technologies. So, if we look upper in the pyramid of overall solutions for data protection, after that we introduce our asynchronous replication which is based on that snapshot technology for us. The reason we had such an efficient and groundbreaking snapshot technology, enables us to do the lowest RPO protection for async replication when comparing to any storage product on the market. We're talking about four seconds RPO, and this is something that no other vendor was able to do, because snapshots break at that pace. It's very hard to create and delete snapshots at scale at a such a short interval. >> Without performance degradation. >> Exactly, exactly. We were able to do this. And this is kind of one example of how our early days architectural planning and investment in our product architecture pays off year after year with every new feature. That's why it seems easy for now when we release features quickly, because we have such a solid technical foundation. >> One of the things that I was really fascinated by, was your purchase of Axxana. And how have you been able to use that to get this RTO zero, that you're claiming on that? I mean if you look at the marketplace at the moment, it seems to be that the storage vendors in general are owning this whole space of RTO, lower-RTO's, et cetera. >> That's a great question, but before we get into details about that I want to cover a kind of foundational technology for that, that enabled us to do this. And that is our synchronous replication within InfiniBox already. Which is also built on top of our async, which in turn, built on top of our snapshots. With our synchronous replication within InfiniBox, we're delivering the lowest possible latency for sync replication today. Just to give you an example of how low and how efficient that is, systems that are running synchronous replication on top of InfiniBox are having lower latency than a single all-flash array writing locally. Just imagine what it means. We're able to do the round trip right to another array, and complete the whole work faster than you'll have an all-flash array, a typical all-flash array doing. Now that foundational technology also is a key part of our InfiniSync implementation. Because what we did, we took a great product which comes from Axxana, which is the hardened black box, capable of withstanding any type of disaster, fire, floods, earthquake, whatever. And we essentially integrated it very closely with InfiniBox sync replication, where we're writing this very efficient low-latency sync operations to our InfiniSync appliance, and essentially enabling RPO zero over in the distance. So if you look at it from the heart things perspective which is the data path, we had existing capability, which is our sync replication within the array. We just had to integrate it with another great product, Axxana, and that essentially was more than anything an integration work rather than from scratch development. Because again, this is part of our philosophy, we plan ahead as far a our product, road map, and strategy, and when you lay out the foundation early on, you get to the point where some things look easy, because they were pre-made and prepared early on. >> So that's the tip of the pyramid. For those mission critical applications where you need RPO zero, you've now enabled customers to do that for much lower cost than let's say for instance, the three site data center. >> Yep. >> What about the sort of fat middle, Neville, of data protection, I think you guys call it InfiniGuard. Right? That's kind of your solution there. >> So InfiniGuard simply is InfiniBox storage, with all of it's resiliency and performance, and algorithms that outperform typical arrays, and in front of that we've integrated deduplication engines. These deduplication engines present themselves as targets to the traditional backup ecosystem, receive data, de-duplicate it, and use the resources of InfiniBox storage integrated into the InfiniGuard. And, it's been received well, because its ability to deliver aggressive recovery time objectives, because of its performance in terms of resource speeds. The traditional systems that have been designed ten or fifteen years ago were okay at doing backups, they were purposely built for backup processes. They suffer greatly as a byproduct of the process of deduplication, and the IO profile that that generates. InfiniGuard breaks through that, because of its performance in the underlying storage, in order to drive RTO's, for the recovery of those files that are under the 24-hour sort of data protection cycle. And the customers are receiving it well. They are amazed at the performance, the reliability, and the simplicity within which that fits into the existing ecosystem. So it completes. InfiniSync, InfiniGuard, with InfiniBox at the core in the middle. >> And so you partner with the backup software vendors. >> Of course. >> You're not writing your own backup software, right? >> No no no. So integration, Veeam, the ConVals, the Veritas OST's, et cetera. A little further integration when it comes to InfiniBox Snap technology. That is integrated into backup applications such as ConVal or Veeam. Specifically, you can use their dashboard and their scheduling scheme to trigger the snap that then is taken care of in InfiniBox. So, it's quite a comprehensive deliverable against the whole data protection paradigm. >> And have you made a cloud of that now? With your new service? >> Not yet, but as Jacob said, there's the vision, we are always building strategically, slightly ahead of the curve. So you can imagine that that's not lost on the radar screen. >> Right. >> I see this as a return on asset play. In other words, I've got the architecture, I've got my processes and procedures in place, I don't have to go out and buy a purpose built appliance for data protection now, I can use the asset that's on my floor, that people are trained on, what are your thoughts? >> Absolutely, it seems to me that you have, uh simplified tremendously, all of those previous steps, that took one to another to another, and put them all in the same box, and used the same technologies, to achieve much better end to end results. I think it's excellent. >> You're absolutely correct, and it's deliverable in a timely fashion, because the foundation is so strong. The investment that we made from day one, to make sure that that storage architecture was able to deliver the storage services at the right cost point, at the right resiliency, at the right performance levels, is the means by which we're able to accomplish that. No one else can do it. >> And there's another arc to this story. That we're constantly, we're continually investing into that foundation. Every, our customers, the one unique thing that they experience with us, is that their systems get better every time, every release that we have, every month they get better. Not only on performance, which is obvious, in that our systems are improving all the time. >> As opposed to the normal expectation is that >> Yes. >> as you fill it up it gets worse. >> Yeah. We are actually delivering the opposite. Our customers that are buying the system today, know that, the ones that experienced InfiniBox, know that it will become better over time. And that expands the whole spectrum. It's performance, it's reliability, but it also futures it. All of the things that we discussed here, were delivered free of charge through our software upgrade to our existing InfiniBox customers. And, without disclosing something specific looking forward, there are many more things in that area coming up pretty soon from us. >> Very innovative. You guys always solve problems differently, cutting against the conventional wisdom. You see, VMworld, a lot of glam. A lot of big market. And you guys, I was at your customer dinner the other night. A lot of happy customers. A very intimate event. And a lot of good belly to belly conversations. So congratulations. Final thoughts from each of you on VMworld 2018, the future of Infinidat, anything you want to share with us? Go ahead, Neville. >> Good show, the clients, the prospects that I've spoken to here, they get to open their minds in terms of our solution-offering, and it's generated a lot of interest, and it's going to be a good remainder of the year and a good 2019. >> Great, Jacob, final words from you. >> I agree as well. And we're, I'm seeing customers that are actually reaching out to new prospects for us, and telling the story of Infinidat, and that's catching on. And it's great to see that. >> Jacob, Neville, thanks very much for coming to theCUBE. Bringing you all the action from VMworld 2018, I'm Dave Vellante, for David Floyer. You're watching theCUBE, and we'll be right back after this short break. (light electronic music)

>> [Narrator] Live from Los Angeles, it's The Cube, covering E3 2018. Brought to you by SiliconANGLE Media. >> Hey, welcome back, everybody. Jeff Frick here with The Cube. We're actually in the Warner Brothers games booth. This humongous booth, we're kind of in the inner sanctum here at E3 in the LA Convention Center. Lot of stuff going on with Warner Brother Games. A lot of really cool combinations of brands and games and movies. But this is a very special one, Hitman 2. We're all excited to be here and learn more about it with Jacob Mikkelsen. He's actually the game director for IO Interactive. Jacob, great to see you. >> Oh, thank you. >> So let's just get to the basics. First off, when is Hitman 2 coming out? What do people need to know, we'll get that out of the way, and then we'll get into it. >> Hitman 2 is out November 13. And if you pre-order now, you have a special pre-order bonus where you get access to a new game mode called Sniper Assassin, which is a sniper-only mission. And then for the first time in Hitman history, we also have a co-op mode where you can snipe alongside a friend, into the mission and create all sorts of havoc. It's still deeply founded in the roots of the game's DNA, where it's all about getting away with the sniping without anyone noticing that you're there. So it has a very, very strong puzzle element to it. So it's about peeling off the layers of an onion, without anyone noticing you're there. >> So you talked a little bit before we turned on the cameras about the freedom that a player gets, not like in a traditional game, where they can can choose a lot of different options of how they're gonna do the mission. So how do you guys come up with that? How is that all determined? And how do you actually still keep the game true to the mission? >> Well, the thing is that as you say, it's very much, we call that hyper-detailed sandbox. So when you play a Hitman mission, we don't give you a linear path through the level that you follow. We give you an open sandbox where you have to figure out how do you want to approach this mission. And in the case of the mission we're showing here at E3, it's a race event in Miami. And your target is one of the race drivers, actually. That's our half of the mission. And she's roaming around the track. So the whole thing in the demo today is like, "Okay, so how do you get close to Sierra's car?" And then in order to do that, then you need to obtain disguises, which is a key element in the Hitman franchise, that you can disguise as the characters you meet in the scene. So you can knock them out and become, take their uniforms on, and then infiltrate the areas. Some guards are more suspicious of you than others, so you have to mingle your way through the level. So it's very much up to you if you want to sneak in and try not to do the disguise stuff, or you can go for the disguise stuff and then make your way. And then the game adapts, in a way, because we have to foresee all these different permutations of play. So there's a lot of things you can do in the game, in terms of which way you take and how you get there. >> So I'm just curious from a game development point of view, in terms of building in difficulty, 'cause you want to have enough difficulties that it's a challenge and people feel satisfaction in rising to the challenge, but clearly you could make it so they just got wiped out every time. You could make it an impossible game. So how do you find that balance? How do you tune that balance? What are some of the things you think about when you're trying to get in degree of difficulty? >> Well, that's a really, how difficult should it be, that's a really hard question to answer in a Hitman game, because of the many ways that the players can do it. So we have an initial idea about where we want to challenge the players and where we want to give them a bit more leash where they can just roam around. But once you get a new disguise, then it's a different scenario. And we have to account for that in our design. So we do a lot of iterations on this. Okay, so if I went to the right and went this way in through the level but there was no resistance, I didn't have to do anything, I could just walk straight in the main door, then we have to go back to the drawing board and then jiggle around the characters, maybe add some new ones, remove some, and change the amount of guards, so the player will have challenges no matter how they approach it. But in the end, the crazy thing is, no matter how hard we make it or how challenging we make it, they will always find crazy ways of bypassing the systems and bending the rules of the game so much. And that's what makes Hitman great, is that you can do all of these things. Just, okay, can I do this? Yes, and you go and try it, and maybe it worked out, maybe it was not a good idea in the end. But it's very much up to you, as the player, to figure out how you want to be creative in this. >> So we're doing this series as part of the Western Digital data makes possible. And data is such a bit part of what you guys do. And really, as gaming has moved off of the pure console into the connected world, gives you an opportunity as a developer to see really, how are people interacting with the game? How are they making decisions? So how did you guys look at the analytics? You must be doing more and more and more analytics on all these various movements and potential options that they have. >> We have systems in place to figure out where people get spotted, so we can actually see that. The tricky part about metrics is that during development, there's actually not that many people playing the game besides ourselves. So we rely heavily on user testing, where we subdue people to the, we place people in front of the game in very early stages, to see if our core ideas are working. And then based on that, we then look at video footage, interviews, and all that stuff. That feeds back into the design loop of the process. >> And have you mapped every potential option, or are you using AI? You just used the example, some guy's too smart, we really need to have more guards for this guy. Is there AI and intelligence in the game that you can make little fine-tuned adjustments along the path as people actually play the game? 'Cause you're gonna have a whole lot more data by December first than you have today. >> Precisely, the amount of data we get is pretty wild in the end. But the core of the game, the characters are AI-driven. They have their own plans that they want to do. And the way it works is that we then build stories on top of this core AI. So the designers, they have freedom to create custom moments. But at some point when things go in the fence for the player, you get spotted or someone sees through your disguise, then the AI takes over. And I dare to say that we have some of the most complex AI systems in the industry. We go to great lengths to have them be very living and communicating a lot. So if one guy finds a body, then it's one situation. If he has a friend, then they begin to talk about what they've just experienced. And they work together to figure out what is actually going on. So there's a very high level of AI running behind the scenes in the Hitman game. >> Now, do you do that at the level of the characters? So it's really how a character responds to different stimuli-- >> Yes. >> Versus just a generic overlay for the whole game? >> Well, it's a mix. Some of them are different kinds of characters, guards or civilians, and they have different behaviors, based on what happens. But each character is more or less himself. And then he is not hive-mind controlled. It is a lot of agents that are running around in the world, trying to figure out what this player's up to, creating havoc behind the scenes. So it's a lot of fun to work with it, because it's also so unpredictable. And then all of a sudden, something happens that you didn't expect. >> Right, 'cause you can't possibly scenario every potential outcome, right? >> Exactly, we have some control, but it's systemically based. So we kind of, the way we normally say it is, we encourage the characters to do things. And then they might do it. For instance, you and I having an interview right now, that requires that you're standing in your spot and I'm standing in my spot. If I were to create that scene in the game, then there is a certain chance that one of us is lying in a dumpster somewhere and never shows up for the interview. And then the next question is, okay, so what do you do? So we have to construct the game in a way so that you won't break down and stop here. I don't know if you remember in season one of Westworld, if you've seen that? >> I have seen season one. I haven't caught up on season two yet, but yeah, season one. >> I haven't seen season two yet. But in season one, there's this scene where there's a bonfire scene that breaks down, where all the characters just stop. And then it turns out that the guy who went for firewood has been killed. So he never returned with the firewood, and thereby, the entire bonfire scene just grinds to a halt. >> [Jeff] Just freezes. >> That is Hitman gave development in a nutshell. Then we have a bug when that thing happens. And that can happen during development, we do that stuff. >> It's gotta be so cool, to discover how people actually work their way through the game. >> Absolutely. >> 'Cause the other thing I think it's interesting that you guys always have to balance is you have narrative, you want to have a narrative. You have a story, you have characters, and a look and feel. At the same time, you have individual operators, the players, that bring in their own point of view to the game. So how do you balance? When does one take priority to the other? How do you keep it on that narrative flow? >> It's been one of these returning challenges of making a Hitman game. And with the previous game, we narrowed in on, okay, so how do we do this? So we have a main story that is told outside the levels, which the levels don't directly affect. So the overall main arc and storyline is set. But what happens in the levels stays in the levels, so to speak. So in season one, we actually managed to go through the main story with some characters left alive, which is good. Because now in the second, in Hitman 2, we're going to get closer to them. And the story evolves around Agent 47, and we get a glimpse into his past, which is a bit of some things we haven't told yet. So that's going to be very exciting to see that, as well. >> Right, well Jacob, thanks for spending a few minutes. And good luck with the launch, congrats on the new product. >> Thank you very much, nice talking to you. >> He's Jacob, I'm Jeff, you're watching The Cube. We're in the Warner Brothers games booth at E3, LA Convention Center. Thanks for watching. (upbeat electronic music)

(click) >> Hey, welcome back everybody. Jeff Frick here with theCUBE. We're at Node Summit 2017 in San Francisco at the Mission Bay Convention Center. We've been coming here for years. A really active community, a lot of good mojo, about 800 developers here. About to the limits that the Mission Bay center can hold. Now we're excited to have our next guest. He just came off a panel. It's Jacob Groundwater. He's an engineering manager for Electron at Github. Jacob, welcome. >> Thank you, it's great to be here. >> So really interesting panel, Electron. I hadn't heard about Electron before, I was kind digging in a little bit while the panel was going on, but for the folks that aren't familiar, what is Electron? >> Yeah. Electron, there's a good chance that people who haven't even heard of it might already be using it. >> (chuckles) That's always a good thing. >> Yeah. Electron is a project that's started by Github and it's open source and you can use it to build desktop applications but with web technologies. We're leveraging the Google Chrome project to do a lot of that. And Node. And Node. Node.js is a big part of it as well. >> So build desktop apps using web technologies. >> Yep. >> And why would somebody want to do that? >> You know, I think at the root of that question, it's always the same answer which is just economics right now. Developers are in demand, software developers are in demand. The web is taking over and the web is becoming the most common skillset that people have. So you get a few benefits by using Electron. You get to distribute to three platforms automatically, you get Linux, Mac, and Windows. Sometimes it's like super easy. Sometimes you do a little bit of building to get that to happen, but it's, you know, you could cut your team size down by maybe two thirds if you do it that way. >> Wow, that's a pretty significant cut. Now you said one 1.0 released year, and how's the, how's the adoption? >> I actually can't even keep up with the number of applications that are being published on top of Electron. I'm often surprised, I'll go to a company and I'll say, oh I work on Electron at Github. And they'll be like, oh we're developing an Electron app, or we're working on an Electron app. So it, it's kind of unreal. Like I've never really been in this situation before where something that I'm working on is being used so much. I think it's out, it's out there, it's in production, it's running in millions of laptops and desktops. >> Yeah. That's great though, 'cause that's the whole promise of software, right? That's why people want to get into software. >> Yeah. >> 'Cause you can actually write something that people use and you can change the world. It could be distributed all over the world with millions of users before you even know it. >> There's this wonderful thought of like writing something once and then it running in millions of places potentially. I just love it. I love it. I think it's super cool. Yeah. So as it's grown what have been some of the main kind of concerns, issues, what are some of the things you're managing within that growth that's not pure technical? >> Yeah. That's a great question. One of the biggest things that I found interesting is when I got on our website and check the analytics, it's almost uniform across the globe. People are interested in it from everywhere. So there's challenges like, right now I had to set up a core meeting to talk about some of the like, updates to Electron and that had to be at midnight pacific time because we had to include the Prague time zone, Tokyo time zone, and Chennai in India. And we're trying to see if we can squeeze in someone from Australia. And just the global distributive nature of Electron, like people around the world are working on this and using it. >> Right. The other part you mentioned in the session, was the management of the community. And you made an interesting, you know, we go to a lot of conferences, everyone's got their code of conduct published these days which is kind of sad. It's good, but it's kind of sad that people don't have basic manners it seems like anymore. We've covered a lot of opensource communities. One that jumps to mind is OpenStack and watch that evolve over time and there's kind of community management issues that come up as these things grow. And you brought up, kind of an interesting paradigm, if you've got a great technical contributor who's just not a good person for, I don't know you didn't really define kind of the negative side but got some issues that may impact the cohesiveness of the community going forward, especially because community is so important in these projects. But if you got a great technical mind, I never really heard that particular challenge. >> I think it comes up a lot more than people realize. And it's something that I think about a lot. And one thing I want to focus on is, what we're really zeroing in on is bad behavior. >> Bad behavior. That was the word. >> And not a bad person. >> Right, right. >> One of the best ways to, to maybe get around that happening is to set an expectation early about what is acceptable behavior and alert people early when they're doing things that are going to cause harm to the community or cause harm to others. And also frame it in a way where they know, we're trying to keep other people safe, but we're also trying to keep those offenders, give them the space to change. If you choose not to change, that's a whole different story. So I think that by keeping the community strong, we encourage people around the globe to work on this project and we've already seen great returns by doing this far, so that's why I'm really focused on keeping it, keeping it a place where you know you can come and show up and do your work and do your best work. >> Right. Right. Well hopefully that's not taking too many of your cycles, you don't got too many of those, of those characters. >> Every hour I put in, I get like 10s and 20, like hours and hours back in return from the people who give back. So it's well worth it. It's the best use of my time. >> Alright good. So great growth over the year. As you look forward to next calendar year, kind of what are some of your priorities? What are some of the community's priorities? Where is Electron going? And if we touch base a year from now, what are we going to be talking about? >> Excellent question. So strengthening, formalizing some aspects of the community that we have so far, it's a little ad hoc, would be great. We want to look to having people outside of Github that feel more ownership over the project. For example, we have contributors who probably should be reviewing and committing code on their own, without necessarily needing to loop in someone from my team. So really turning this into a community project. In addition, we are focusing up on what might go into a version 2 release. And we're really focusing on security as a key feature in version two. >> Yeah, security's key and it's got to be baked in all the way to the bottom. >> Yeah. >> Alright Jacob, well it sounds like you've got your work cut out for you >> Thank you. and it should be an exciting year. >> Yeah, thanks very much. >> Alright. He's Jacob Groundwater. He's from the Electron project at Github. I'm Jeff Frick. You're watching theCUBE. We'll see you next time. Thanks for watching. (sharp music)

>>Hello everybody. And welcome back. Wow. What a Docker con we've been gone all day. There's so many great breakout sessions, live panels. How many you just came off a live panel. >>He did. It was great. It was awesome. >>So I'm Peter McKie, head of developer relations and we have Brett Fisher hammer one on everybody just introduced herself. We have a new guest here. I'm not sure if people know who you are. Uh, Scott, maybe if you can introduce yourself. Hello? Hello. Hello? Is this Mike? All right. Awesome. So I thought, well cool. What a long day. I think we had some really awesome talks. Of course. Um, it was hard to jump around right. And see everything. So, um, so I missed a lot, but I got to see some great talks. I love the Kubernetes talk. The, the, the, the minimal things you need to know from Kubernetes from Elton, which was fantastic. Yeah. I really loved. And the M one talk from tonus man. I'm super excited about my. >>Yeah, I'm super excited, but I didn't get the Mac until I knew that Docker would support containers on it. There you go. >>There you go. Everybody should have one. Yep. Yep. So you said we were running windows. It's just a personal, personal preference. Okay. So I thought, I thought we could talk about maybe reminisce a little bit, but uh, you know, Scott has the shirt on there from 14, but I doubt that's the first DockerCon you have ever been to Scott? Is it the first, first? Yeah, that was the first one we ever held. So first one we ever held was, uh, June, 2014. And so it was about what, 15 months after Docker was opensource. And we had 300 people all crammed in a little room in a hotel in San Francisco. Right. And we had Lego whale schwag and, you know, talks. And it w what's that, that was the first one. Yeah, it was the first one. And then after that, I remember I wasn't there, but in, um, was it an Amsterdam where the video, the great video where the, the, the, the crowd, we got to play a video game and they were kicking around the, the, uh, beach balls and it would move, moved a little arcade character. Brett, do you remember this? And, and you had to move with the crowd. It was, it looked like a nightclub. It was closed. >>That was fantastic. Like those intros were some of the most, it was like being in a nightclub when, uh, a new band debuted or >>All right. Well, how am I, w is this your, this is your first Docker con, correct? >>It is. I'm like, I feel like I'm just a new, but, uh, I had a great time, like I said, before, kid in the candy store, I learned so much, especially the panels, even from our Docker individuals. So that was, it was great. I I'm enthralled, I'm excited. I'm going to watch all the recordings afterwards as everyone else will be able to do too, since we got that question a lot, but yeah. Super exciting for me. >>Yeah. You might have to wait until tomorrow because the adrenaline is just going to just going to drop. You might just sleep, sleep, and then, but then you can watch them watch all the replays tomorrow. I know that's what I'm going to do, catch up on things sleep with. But, um, I have some that talk about, and so some of the highlights that I was interested in, maybe some of them, you know, might not be at the top of everybody's mind, but the verified publisher program. I mean, that, that is it's incredible, right. That's just about all the security, uh, supply chain security problems that are happening. Right. That's a huge, huge win for us. I think Scott of having, uh, partners around, uh, around containers, around software, joining us to, and we verify their content, uh, just building trust, more trust with the community, right? >>Yeah. I mean, I mean, you saw this theme throughout the conference, right? Is that the, the security theme kind of ran deep and you saw a lot of talks and panels. And so this is just kind of playing into that where it's like, how do you, how do you start with content you trust as developers updated or their put their apps on it and then hand it off to ops and then deploy from there. And so, um, the verified publisher program is just another layer if you will, of providing kind of trusted content that, that people want to use and want to use in their application. So yeah, no, I think it's a great ad and it's very consistent with what you see kind of the conversation, the community that we saw throughout the day. Yeah, absolutely. But w what was the highlight for you for today? Put you on the spot a little bit. >>Um, again, hanging out, getting to hang out with my friends again and meet new people like that was basically, you know, at Docker con uh, I have so many memories. In fact, uh, we were earlier today on Twitter. We were throwing up some old pictures of like the original captains, uh, gathering in Seattle. And we actually got to be captains on little boats. They get, they, they put us in boats, we didn't have any training and we got to drive them around in a, in a lake. And it was hilarious. Um, and, and having those memories and then re reliving them with people that were there or people that were, um, a part of that early days of Docker. And that's one of my favorite parts of Docker course, the learning is fantastic, the new features, but yeah, that, that those memories >>Let, let, let me lean into Brett it's point. Like, like, so we're all, we're all nerds and introverts, right? So like, we get excited by the tech and the bits and the bites, but Brett's point about like the community and how, like it's just grown over the years. And it's always been kind of welcoming to newcomers as well as providing forums for cutting edge discussions as well. Like that, that is one of those things. I think we, we often don't fully appreciate no fully celebrate. And so today was a great example of just celebrating that and putting that front and center of the whole conversations for everything. Yeah, yeah. A hundred percent in the, all of the community leaders, the community, the rooms that we had. I mean, they were, we just chatting before we came online about the Brazil, uh, community room there they're just trucking along, keep going. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, they're, they're just, um, yeah, it amazes me every, every time and the captains program. Right. I mean, everybody on there is they're experts in what they do, but not a whole lot of egos. I mean, it just super nice people always willing to help. I mean, the whole community is like that in my opinion, for sure. Yeah. Awesome. >>Just a couple of highlights that I wanted to share if I could, what was your favorite? Um, you know, my favorite, this is going to sound super geeky. It was the people talked about documentation. And so I just wanted to do a call out to OSHA who does such a great job on our documentation and that as a developer, I mean, documentation was a very important part of what I needed to do. It's like a critical tool for me, and that we have that on the program was great, but of course, verified publisher program I've been working closely on that. That has been great. We have some great press releases that have gone out from our partners. So I encourage you to check that out. I wanted to share some stats if that's okay. I think attendees would be very interested. We have over 79,000 people who signed up for DockerCon. >>So, uh, that's a great number that exceeds last year's number, I believe. And, uh, we had the, the sound right. And then we had about 23,000, um, attendees during the, the day today, which is, which is also incredible. And we're still crunching those numbers, but it's wonderful. And then the, GoFund me, we're sitting at about a little over a thousand dollars. So, you know, DockerCon, doesn't end after this. There's still recordings and presentations you can look at and the GoFund me will still be up for a while. So I encourage you to, to donate for that. But those are just some interesting stats. >>Oh, that's awesome. Yeah. It's amazing. The numbers that, that happened. And again, I think it's because of the community for real, there's just so many great folks. Yeah. I mean, the chat is just on fire, right. Everybody wants to engage so much. It just flies by right. When you see it, right. You see folks waking up at 2:00 AM, 3:00 AM to participate, and it's not, you know, part of it's for the content, but, but a lot of it is the community because they know they're going to find folks willing to answer questions, willing to share. And, and you know, how often do you experience that in tech communities? And so I think that's what makes Docker, um, special. There's a lot of great communities out there, but the doc community is really special in that sense of like, like you can wait in, you can be a newbie, you can be an expert and there's a place for you, right. >>There's a place for you to share. There's a place for you to learn. And there's always something to learn. There's always something you can share with someone else. And I think that's something that we all should like celebrate, but also work hard and be deliberate to kind of, kind of preserve right. And, and protect as we grow this to like 80,000 this year, a hundred thousand next year, 200,000 million after that, right? Yeah. Yeah. A hundred percent. Yeah. It's important to stay authentic and true to our roots for sure. And I think that's, I mean, it's one of the biggest reasons I am here at Dockers because of the community. The tools are awesome too. Uh, you know, I'm a big fan for sure. And that's what drew me in, but I stay before the people, one that I work with and to the, the broader community, I think it's one of the best in the industry. >>I possibly could be a little biased, but I truly believe that it's okay to, you're a lot of advice. What do you hear in the chat? Yeah. Yeah. You got one, one 30 in the morning and the UK two 25 in the morning. Where's Tony Switzerland. So yeah. That's great. Philippines. Yeah. Yeah. Jacob Howard was on my, uh, on my panel for, uh, development dev containers. Right. He's in Ukraine and he's like, yeah, Nope, no problem. I'll wake up. I'd love to be on. Right. It's it's amazing. Yeah. Okay. What did we, and this might be, I risk, uh, not thinking too far in the future, but you know, you know, sitting in America, looking at COVID right. I think we're starting to come out of it a little bit. Uh, the rest of the world is, you know, still struggling a bit, but, um, yeah. >>Be interesting. Let's say everything goes well. Right. Hi, some kind of hybrid, um, events seems interesting to me, um, possibly some local events that, you know, these communities are coming together, live to watch and to also do their thing. I don't know. I don't know anybody's thoughts about, um, you know, what a hybrid model looks like next year or maybe a year and a half. I don't, I don't know, but I just, no, Peter, I think you're spot on. And that's, that's the topic of the moment, right? It's like, how do you preserve the, the wonderful reach and accessibility that we're seeing today? Right. And last year with the virtual conferences, but we also know that like the face to face in person, our IRL conferences also have a lot of value. Right. So how do you, how do you blend the two of those and still have a great experience, honestly, like community, like give us your feedback, give us your ideas. >>Like we're, we're right in the middle of figuring out what we do for the next 12 months, once it's safe to meet face to face. Right. That's a great question. Yeah. Yeah. I don't, you can't beat the power of sitting down beside someone, like you mentioned earlier, Scott, where a lot of us are introverts and, um, you know, so the screen in front of us is a little bit hard, but I, those connections you make in the hallways after, after the talks in, in the hotel lobby, I mean, white boarding on a, on a yeah. Like it's, it's invaluable, right? Yeah. Yeah. Well, awesome. Brett time-check we're where are we at? Here? We are at time. Okay. It felt like that. Oh man. Oh, bummer. Well it's okay. What a great day. Goodbye. >>See you later. Goodbye. Yeah. Well, thanks guys for jumping on here at the end and with everybody, I really appreciate it. And uh, thank you to the Docker community, all the speakers, all the panelists, all the keynote speakers, everybody behind the scenes did a phenomenal job. Um, I I'm super excited to be part of this team and I totally look forward to being able to see everybody in person. And, uh, yeah, I'll shut up and let anybody else close out. I don't want to be the last one, but, uh, well, no. Well done Peter. Well done Brett, and look, Dr. Communities is what makes us, makes us strong, makes it work. And through trials like COVID and other challenges of last year, the community held strong, right? And so let's all respect that let's cherish that let's protect that. And like, let's look forward in the next 12 months, have a great 12 months and figure out what DockerCon 20, 22 looks like the conclude, all these great voices have as much interactivity, whether it's on-prem, whether it's virtual, whether it's hybrid and just want to say thank you to community. Thank you. The sponsors. Thank you. The Docker team who went above and beyond to make this happen. Thank you. The Docker, captains and the community behind the scenes. A phenomenal event. And just want to thank everyone so much. Yeah. Yep. All right. Well, that'll wrap it up. Thanks everybody. We'll see you we'll see you soon. Awesome. All right. Thanks everyone, doctor

>>Hello, and welcome. Very excited to see everybody here. DockerCon is going fantastic. Everybody's uh, engaging in the chat. It's awesome to see. My name is Peter McKee. I'm the head of developer relations here at Docker and Taber. Today. We're going to be talking about container first development now and in the future. But before we do that, a couple little housekeeping items, first of all, yes, we are live. So if you're in our session, you can go ahead and chat, ask us questions. We'd love to get all your questions and answer them. Um, if you come to the main page on the website and you do not see the chat, go ahead and click on the blue button and that'll die. Uh, deep dive you into our session and you can interact with the chat there. Okay. Without further ado, let's just jump right into it. Katie, how are you? Welcome. Do you mind telling everybody who you are and a little bit about yourself? >>Absolutely. Hello everyone. My name is Katie and currently I am the eco-system advocate at cloud native computing foundation or CNCF. My responsibility is to lead and represent the end-user community. So these are all the practitioners within the cloud native space that are vendor neutral. So they use cloud native technologies to build their services, but they don't sell it. So this is quite an important characteristic as well. My responsibility is to make sure to close the gap between these practitioners and the project maintainers, to make sure that there is a feedback loop around. Um, I have many roles within the community. I am on the advisory board for KIPP finishes, a sandbox project. I'm working with open UK to make sure that Elton standards are used fairly across data, hardware, and software. And I have been, uh, affiliated way if you'd asked me to make sure that, um, I'm distributing a cloud native fundamental scores to make cloud and they do a few bigger despite everyone. So looking forward to this panel and checking with everyone. >>Awesome. Yeah. Welcome. Glad to have you here. Johanna's how are you? Can you, uh, tell everybody a little bit about yourself and who you are? Yeah, sure. >>So hi everybody. My name is Johannes I'm one of the co-founders at get pot, which in case you don't know is an open-source and container based development platform, which is probably also the reason why you Peter reached out and invited me here. So pleasure to be here, looking forward to the discussion. Um, yeah, though it is already a bit later in Munich. Um, and actually my girlfriend had a remote cocktail class with her colleagues tonight and it took me some stamina to really say no to all the Moscow mules that were prepared just over there in my living room. Oh wow. >>You're way better than me. Yeah. Well welcome. Thanks for joining us. Jerome. How are you? Good to see you. Can you tell everybody who you are and a little bit about yourself? Hi, >>Sure. Yeah, so I'm, I, I used to work at Docker and some, for me would say I'm a container hipster because I was running containers in production before it for hype. Um, I worked at Docker before it was even called Docker. And then since 2018, I'm now a freelancer and doing training and consulting around Docker containers, Kubernetes, all these things. So I used to help folks do stuff with Docker when I was there and now I still have them with containers more generally speaking. So kind of, uh, how do we say same, same team, different company or something like that? Yeah. >>Yeah. Perfect. Yeah. Good to see you. I'm glad you're on. Uh, Jacob, how are you? Good to see you. Thanks for joining us. Good. Yeah. Thanks for having me tell, tell everybody a little bit about yourself who you are. >>Yeah. So, uh, I'm the creator of a tool called mutagen, which is an open source, uh, development tool for doing high performance file synchronization and, uh, network forwarding, uh, to enable remote development. And so I come from like a physics background where I was sort of always doing, uh, remote developments, you know, whether that was on a big central clusters or just like some sort of local machine that was a bit more powerful. And so I, after I graduated, I built this tool called mutagen, uh, for doing remote development. And then to my surprise, people just started using it to use, uh, with Docker containers. And, uh, that's kind of grown into its primary use case now. So I'm, yeah, I've gotten really involved with the Docker community and, uh, talked with a lot of great people and now I'm one of the Docker captains. So I get to talk with even more and, and join these events and yeah, but I'm, I'm kind of focused on doing remote development. Uh, cause I, you know, I like, I like having all my tools available on my local machine, but I also like being able to pull in a little bit more powerful hardware or uh, you know, maybe a software that I can't run locally. And so, uh, that's sort of my interest in, in Docker container. Yeah. Awesome. >>Awesome. We're going to come back to that for sure. But yeah. Thank you again. I really appreciate you all joining me and yeah. So, um, I've been thinking about container first development for a while and you know, what does that actually mean? So maybe, maybe we can define it in our own little way. So I, I just throw it out to the panel. When you think about container first development, what comes to mind? What w what, what are you kind of thinking about? Don't be shy. Go ahead. Jerome. You're never a loss of words >>To me. Like if I go back to the, kind of the first, uh, you know, training engagements we did back at Docker and kind of helping folks, uh, writing Dockerfiles to stop developing in containers. Um, often we were replacing, um, uh, set up with a bunch of Vagrant boxes and another, like the VMs and combinations of local things. And very often they liked it a lot and they were very soon, they wanted to really like develop in containers, like run this microservice. This piece of code is whatever, like run that in containers because that means they didn't have to maintain that thing on their own machine. So that's like five years ago. That's what it meant to me back then. However, today, if you, if you say, okay, you know, developing in containers, um, I'm thinking of course about things like get bought and, uh, I think it's called PR or something like that. >>Like this theme, maybe that thing with the ESCO, that's going to run in a container. And you, you have this vs code thing running in your browser. Well, obviously not in your browser, but in a container that you control from your browser and, and many other things like that, that I, I think that's what we, where we want to go today. Uh, and that's really interesting, um, from all kinds of perspectives, like Chevy pair pairing when we will not next to each other, but actually thousands of miles away, um, or having this little environment that they can put aside and come back to it later, without it having using resource in my machine. Um, I don't know, having this dev service running somewhere in the cloud without needing something like, it's at the rights that are like the, the possibilities are really endless. >>Yeah. Yeah. Perfect. Yeah. I'm, you know, a little while ago I was, I was torn, right. W do I spin up containers? Do I develop inside of my containers? Right. There's foul sinking issues. Um, you know, that we've been working on at Docker for a while, and Jacob is very, very familiar with those, right? Sometimes it, it becomes hard, but, and I, and I love developing in the cloud, but I also have this screaming, you know, fast machine sitting on my desktop that I think I should take advantage of. So I guess another question is, you know, should we be developing inside of containers? Is that a smart thing to do? Uh, I'd love to hear you guys' thoughts around that. >>You know, I think it's one of those things where it's, you know, for me container first development is really about, um, considering containers as sort of a first class citizen in, in terms of your development toolkit, right. I mean, there's not always that silver bullet, that's like the one thing you should use for everything. You know, you shouldn't, you shouldn't use containers if they're not fitting in or adding value to your workflow, but I think there's a lot of scenarios that are like, you know, super on super early on in the development process. Like as soon as you get the server kind of running and working and, you know, you're able to access it, you know, running on your local system. Uh that's I think that's when the value comes in to it to add containers to, you know, what you're doing or to your project. Right. I mean, for me, they're, um, they're more of a orchestrational tool, right? So if I don't have to have six different browser tabs open with like, you know, an API server running at one tab and a web server running in another tab and a database running in another tab, I can just kind of encapsulate those and, and use them as an automation thing. So I think, you know, even if you have a super powerful computer, I think there's still value in, um, using containers as, as a orchestrational mechanism. Yeah. Yeah, >>For sure. I think, I think one of the, one of my original aha moments with Docker was, oh, I can spin up different versions of a database locally and not have to install it and not have to configure it and everything, but, you know, it just ran inside of a container. And that, that was it. Although it's might seem simple to some people that's very, very powerful. Right. So I think being able to spin things up and containers very quickly is one of the super benefits. But yeah, I think, uh, developing in containers is, is hard right now, right. With, um, you know, and how do you do that? Right. Does anybody have any thoughts around, how do you go about that? Right. Should you use a container as just a development environment, so, you know, creating an image and then running it just with your dev tools in it, or do you just, uh, and maybe with an editor all inside of it, and it's just this process, that's almost like a VM. Um, yeah. So I'll just kick it back to the panel. I'd love to hear your thoughts on, you know, how do you set up and configure, uh, containers to develop in any thoughts around that? >>Maybe one step back again, to answer your question, what kind of container first development mean? I think it doesn't mean, um, by default that it has to be in the cloud, right? As you said, um, there are obvious benefits when it comes to the developer experience of containers, such as, I dunno, consistency, we have standardized tools dependencies for the dev side of things, but it also makes their dev environment more similar to all the pipeline that is somehow happening to the right, right. So CIC D all the way to production, it is security, right? Which also somehow comes with standardization. Um, but vulnerability scanning tools like sneak are doing a great job there. And, um, for us, it gets pod. One of the key reasons why we created get pod was literally creating this peace of mind for deaths. So from a developer's point of view, you do not need to take care anymore about all the hassle around setups and things that you will need to install. >>And locally, based on some outdated, REIT me on three operating systems in your company, everybody has something different and leading to these verbs in my machine situations, um, that really slow professional software developers down. Right. Um, back to your point, I mean, with good pod, we obviously have to package everything together in one container because otherwise, exactly the situation happens that you need to have five browser tabs open. So we try and leverage that. And I think a dev environment is not just the editor, right? So a dev environment includes your source code. It includes like a powerful shell. It includes file systems. It includes essentially all the tools you need in order to be productive databases and so on. And, um, yeah, we believe that should be encapsulated, um, um, in a container. >>Yeah. Awesome. Katie, you talked to a lot of end users, right. And you're talking to a lot of developers. What, what's your thoughts around container first development, right? Or, or what's the community out there screaming or screaming. It might be too to, uh, har you know, to, to two grand of the word. Right. But yeah, I love it. I love to hear what your, your thoughts. >>Absolutely. So I think when you're talking about continuing driven development, uh, the first thing that crosses my mind is the awareness of the infrastructure or the platform you're going to run your application on top of, because usually when you develop your application, you'd like to replicate as much as possible the production or even the staging environment to make sure that when you deploy your application, you have us little inconsistencies as possible, but at the same time, you minimize the risk for something to go wrong as well. So when it talking about the, the community, um, again, when you deploy applications and containers and Kubernetes, you have to use, you have awareness about, and probably apply some of the best practices, like introducing liveliness and readiness probes, to make sure that your application can restart in, in case it actually goes down or there's like a you're starving going CPU or something like that. >>So, uh, I think when it comes to deployment and development of an application, the main thing is to actually improve the end developer experience. I think there has been a lot of focus in the community to develop the tool, to actually give you the right tool to run application and production, but that doesn't necessarily, um, go back to how the end developer is actually enabling that application to run into that production system. So I think there has been, uh, this focus for the community identified now, and it's more, more, um, or trying to build momentum on enhancing the developer experience. And we've seen this going through many, uh, where we think production of many tools did what has been one of them, which actually we can have this portable, um, development environment if you choose so, and you can actually replicate them across different teams in different machines, which is actually quite handy. >>But at the same time, we had tools such as local composts has been a great tool to run locally. We have tool such as carefully, which is absolutely great to automatically dynamically upload any changes to how within your code. So I think all of these kinds of tools, they getting more matured. And again, this is going back to again, we need to enhance our developer experience coming back to what is the right way to do so. Um, I think it really depends on the environment you have in production, because there's going to define some of the structures with the tool and you're going to have internally, but at the same time, um, I'd like to say that, uh, it really depends on, on what trucks are developing. Uh, so it's, it's, I would like to personally, I would like to see a bit more diversification in this area because we might have this competitive solutions that is going to push us to towards a new edge. So this is like, what definitely developer experience. If we're talking about development, that's what we need to enhance. And that's what I see the momentum building at the moment. >>Yeah. Yeah. Awesome. Jerome, I saw you shaking your head there in agreement, or maybe not, but what's your thoughts? >>I was, uh, I was just reacting until 82. Uh, it depends thinking that when I, when I do training, that's probably the answer that I gave the most, uh, each time somebody asks, oh, should we do diesel? And I was also looking at some of the questions in the chat about, Hey, the, should we like have a negatory in the, in the container or something like that. And folks can have pretty strong opinions one way or the other, but as a ways, it kind of depends what we do. It also depends of the team that we're working with. Um, you, you could have teams, you know, with like small teams with folks with lots of experience and they all come with their own Feb tools and editorials and plugins. So you know that like you're gonna have PRI iMacs out of my cold dead hands or something like that. >>So of course, if you give them something else, they're going to be extremely unhappy or sad. On the other hand, you can have team with folks who, um, will be less opinionated on that. And even, I don't know, let's say suddenly you start working on some project with maybe a new programming language, or maybe you're targeting some embedded system or whatever, like something really new and different. And you come up with all the tools, even the ADE, the extensions, et cetera, folks will often be extremely happy in that case that you're kind of giving them a Dettol and an ADE, even if that's not what they usually would, uh, would use, um, because it will come with all of the, the, the nice stage, you know, the compression, the, um, the, the, the bigger, the, whatever, all these things. And I think there is also something interesting to do here with development in containers. >>Like, Hey, you're going to start working on this extremely complex target based on whatever. And this is a container that has everything to get started. Okay. Maybe it's not your favorites editor, but it has all the customization and the conserver and whatever. Um, so you can start working right away. And then maybe later you, we want to, you know, do that from the container in a way, and have your own Emacs, atom, sublime, vs code, et cetera, et cetera. Um, but I think it's great for containers here, as well as they reserve or particularly the opportunity. And I think like the, that, that's one thing where I see stuff like get blood being potentially super interesting. Um, it's hard for me to gauge because I confess I was never a huge ID kind of person had some time that gives me this weird feeling, like when I help someone to book some, some code and you know, that like with their super nice IDE and everything is set up, but they feel kind of lost. >>And then at some point I'm like, okay, let's, let's get VI and grep and let's navigate this code base. And that makes me feel a little bit, you know, as this kind of old code for movies where you have the old, like colorful guy who knows going food, but at the end ends up still being obsolete because, um, it's only a going for movies that whole good for masters and the winning right. In real life, we don't have conformance there's anymore mentioned. So, um, but part of me is like, yeah, I like having my old style of editor, but when, when the modern editorial modern ID comes with everything set up and configured, that's just awesome. That's I, um, it's one thing that I'm not very good at sitting up all these little things, but when somebody does it and I can use it, it's, it's just amazing. >>Yeah. Yeah. I agree. I'm I feel the same way too. Right. I like, I like the way I've I have my environment. I like the tools that I use. I like the way they're set up. And, but it's a big issue, right? If you're switching machines, like you said, if you're helping someone else out there, they're not there, your key bindings aren't there, you can't, you can't navigate their system. Right? Yeah. So I think, you know, talking about, uh, dev environments that, that Docker's coming out with, and we're, you know, there's a lot, there, there's a, it's super complex, all these things we're talking about. And I think we're taking the approach of let's do something, uh, well, first, right. And then we can add on to that. Right. Because I think, you know, setting up full, full developed environments is hard, right. Especially in the, the, um, cloud native world nowadays with microservices, do you run them on a repo? >>Do you not have a monitor repo? Maybe that would be interesting to talk about. I think, um, you know, I always start out with the mono repos, right. And you have all your services in there and maybe you're using one Docker file. And then, because that works fine. Cause everything is JavaScript and node. And then you throw a little Python in there and then you throw a little go and now you start breaking things out and then things get too complex there, you know, and you start pulling everything out into different, get repos and now, right. Not everything just fits into these little buckets. Right. So how do you guys think maybe moving forward, how do we attack that night? How do we attack these? Does separate programming languages and environments and kind of bring them all together. You know, we, we, I hesitate, we solve that with compose around about running, right about executing, uh, running your, your containers. But, uh, developing with containers is different than running containers. Right. It's a, it's a different way to think about it. So anyway, sorry, I'm rattling on a little bit, but yeah. Be interesting to look at a more complex, uh, setup right. Of, uh, of, you know, even just 10 microservices that are in different get repos and different languages. Right. Just some thoughts. And, um, I'm not sure we all have this flushed out yet, but I'd love to hear your, your, you guys' thoughts around that. >>Jacob, you, you, you, you look like you're getting ready to jump there. >>I didn't wanna interrupt, but, uh, I mean, I think for me the issue isn't even really like the language boundary or, or, um, you know, a sub repo boundary. I think it's really about, you know, the infrastructure, right? Because you have, you're moving to an era where you have these cloud services, which, you know, some of them like S3, you can, you can mock up locally, uh, or run something locally in a container. But at some point you're going to have like, you know, cloud specific hardware, right? Like you got TPS or something that maybe are forming some critical function in your, in your application. And you just can't really replicate that locally, but you still want to be able to develop against that in some capacity. So, you know, my, my feeling about where it's going to go is you'll end up having parts of your application running locally, but then you also have, uh, you know, containers or some other, uh, element that's sort of cohabitating with, uh, you know, either staging or, or testing or production services that you're, uh, that you're working with. >>So you can actually, um, you know, test against a really or realistic simulation or the actual, uh, surface that you're running against in production. Because I think it's just going to become untenable to keep emulating all of that stuff locally, or to have to like duplicate these, you know, and, you know, I guess you can argue about whether or not it's a good thing that, that everything's moving to these kind of more closed off cloud services, but, you know, the reality of situation is that's where it's going to go. And there's certain hardware that you're going to want in the cloud, especially if you're doing, you know, machine learning oriented stuff that there's just no way you're going to be able to run locally. Right. I mean, if you're, even if you're in a dev team where you have, um, maybe like a central machine where you've got like 10 or 20 GPU's in it, that's not something that you're going to be able to, to, to replicate locally. And so that's how I kind of see that, um, you know, containers easing that boundary between different application components is actually maybe more about co-location, um, or having different parts of your application run in different locations, on different hardware, you know, maybe someone on your laptop, maybe it's someone, you know, AWS or Azure or somewhere. Yeah. It'd be interesting >>To start seeing those boundaries blur right. Working local and working in the cloud. Um, and you might even, you might not even know where something is exactly is running right until you need to, you know, that's when you really care, but yeah. Uh, Johanas, what's your thoughts around that? I mean, I think we've, we've talked previously of, of, um, you know, hybrid kind of environments. Uh, but yeah. What, what's your thoughts around that? >>Um, so essentially, yeah, I think, I mean, we believe that the lines between cloud and local will also potentially blur, and it's actually not really about that distinction. It's just packaging your dev environment in a way and provisioning your dev environment in a way that you are what we call always ready to coat. So that literally, um, you, you have that for the, you described as, um, peace of mind that you can just start to be creative and start to be productive. And if that is a container potentially running locally and containers are at the moment. I think, you know, the vehicle that we use, um, two weeks ago, or one week ago actually stack blitz announced the web containers. So potentially some things, well, it's run in the browser at some point, but currently, you know, Docker, um, is the standard that enables you to do that. And what we think will happen is that these cloud-based or local, um, dev environments will be what we call a femoral. So it will be similar to CIS, um, that we are using right now. And it doesn't literally matter, um, where they are running at the end. It's just, um, to reduce friction as much as possible and decrease and yeah, yeah. Essentially, um, avoid or the hustle that is currently involved in setting up and also managing dev environments, um, going forward, which really slows down specifically larger teams. >>Yeah. Yeah. Um, I'm going to shift gears a little bit here. We have a question from the audience in chat, uh, and it's, I think it's a little bit two parts, but so far as I can see container first, uh, development, have the challenges of where to get safe images. Um, and I was going to answer it, but let me keep it, let me keep going, where to get safe images and instrumentation, um, and knowing where exactly the problem is happening, how do we provide instrument instrumentation to see exactly where a problem might be happening and why? So I think the gist of it is kind of, of everything is in a container and I'm sitting outside, you know, the general thought around containers is isolation, right. Um, so how do I get views into that? Um, whether debugging or, or, or just general problems going on. I think that's maybe a broader question around the, how you, you know, you have your local hosts and then you're running everything containers, and what's the interplay there. W what's your thoughts there? >>I tend to think that containers are underused interactively. I mean, I think in production, you have this mindset that there's sort of this isolated environment, but it's very, actually simple to drop into a shell inside of a container and use it like you would, you know, your terminal. Um, so if you want to install software that way, you know, through, through an image rather than through like Homebrew or something, uh, you can kind of treat containers in that way and you can get a very, um, you know, direct access to the, to the space in which those are running in. So I think, I think that's maybe the step one is just like getting rid of that mindset, that, that these are all, um, you know, these completely encapsulated environments that you can't interact with because it's actually quite easy to just Docker exec into a container and then use it interactively >>Yeah. A hundred percent. And maybe I'll pass, I'm going to pass this question. You drone, but maybe demystify containers a little bit when I talked about this on the last, uh, panel, um, because we have a question in the, in the chat around, what's the, you know, why, why containers now I have VMs, right? And I think there's a misunderstanding in the industry, uh, about what, what containers are, we think they're fair, packaged stuff. And I think Jacob was hitting on that of what's underneath the hood. So maybe drown, sorry, for a long way to set up a question of what, what, what makes up a container, what is a container >>Is a container? Well, I, I think, um, the sharpest and most accurate and most articulate definition, I was from Alice gold first, and I will probably misquote her, but she said something like containers are a bunch of capsulated processes, maybe running on a cookie on welfare system. I'm not sure about the exact definition, but I'm going to try and, uh, reconstitute that like containers are just processes that run on a Unix machine. And we just happen to put a bunch of, um, red tape or whatever around them so that they are kind of contained. Um, but then the beauty of it is that we can contend them as much, or as little as we want. We can go kind of only in and put some actual VM or something like firecracker around that to give some pretty strong angulation, uh, all we can also kind of decontam theorize some aspects, you know, you can have a container that's actually using the, um, the, um, the network namespace of the host. >>So that gives it an entire, you know, wire speed access to the, to the network of the host. Um, and so to me, that's what really interesting, of course there is all the thing about, oh, containers are lightweight and I can pack more of them and they start fast and the images can be small, yada yada, yada. But to me, um, with my background in infrastructure and building resilient, things like that, but I find really exciting is the ability to, you know, put the slider wherever I need it. Um, the, the, the ability to have these very light containers, all very heavily, very secure, very anything, and even the ability to have containers in containers. Uh, even if that sounds a little bit, a little bit gimmicky at first, like, oh, you know, like you, you did the Mimi, like, oh, I heard you like container. >>So I put Docker when you're on Docker. So you can run container for you, run containers. Um, but that's actually extremely convenient because, um, as soon as you stop building, especially something infrastructure related. So you challenge is how do you test that? Like, when we were doing.cloud, we're like, okay, uh, how do we provision? Um, you know, we've been, if you're Amazon, how do you provision the staging for us installed? How do you provision the whole region, Jen, which is actually staging? It kind of makes things complicated. And the fact that we have that we can have containers within containers. Uh, that's actually pretty powerful. Um, we're also moving to things where we have secure containers in containers now. So that's super interesting, like stuff like a SIS box, for instance. Um, when I saw that, that was really excited because, uh, one of the horrible things I did back in the days as Docker was privileged containers, precisely because we wanted to have Docker in Docker. >>And that was kind of opening Pandora's box. That's the right, uh, with the four, because privileged containers can do literally anything. They can completely wreck up the machine. Um, and so, but at the same time, they give you the ability to run VPNs and run Docker in Docker and all these cool things. You can run VM in containers, and then you can list things. So, um, but so when I saw that you could actually have kind of secure containers within containers, like, okay, there is something really powerful and interesting there. And I think for folks, well, precisely when you want to do development in containers, especially when you move that to the cloud, that kind of stuff becomes a really important and interesting because it's one thing to have my little dev thing on my local machine. It's another thing when I want to move that to a swarm or Kubernetes cluster, and then suddenly even like very quickly, I hit the wall, which is, oh, I need to have containers in my containers. Um, and then having a runtime, like that gets really intense. >>Interesting. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I, and jumping back a bit, um, yeah, uh, like you said, drum at the, at the base of it, it containers just a, a process with, with some, uh, Abra, pardon me, operating constructs wrapped around it and see groups, namespaces those types of things. But I think it's very important to, for our discussion right. Of, uh, developers really understanding that, that this is just the process, just like a normal process when I spin up my local bash in my term. Uh, and I'm just interacting with that. And a lot of the things we talk about are more for production runtimes for securing containers for isolating them locally. I don't, I don't know. I'll throw the question out to the panel. Is that really relevant to us locally? Right. Do we want to pull out all of those restrictions? What are the benefits of containers for development, right. And maybe that's a soft question, but I'd still love to hear your thoughts. Maybe I'll kick it over to you, Katie, would you, would you kick us off a little bit with that? >>I'll try. Um, so I think when, again, I was actually thinking of the previous answers because maybe, maybe I could do a transition here. So, interesting, interesting about containers, a piece of trivia, um, the secrets and namespaces have been within the Linux kernel since 2008, I think, which just like more than 10 years ago, hover containers become popular in the last years. So I think it's, it's the technology, but it's about the organization adopting this technology. So I think why it got more popular now is because it became the business differentiator organizations started to think, how can I deliver value to my customers as quickly as possible? So I think that there should be this kind of two lane, um, kind of progress is the technology, but it's at the same time organization and cultural now are actually essential for us to develop, uh, our applications locally. >>Again, I think when it's a single application, if you have just one component, maybe it's easier for you to kind of run it locally, have a very simple testing environment. Sufficient is a container necessary, probably not. However, I think it's more important when you're thinking to the bigger picture. When we have an architecture that has myriads of microservices at the basis, when it's something that you have to expose, for example, an API, or you have to consume an API, these are kind of things where you might need to think about a lightweight set up within the containers, only local environment to make sure that you have at least a similar, um, environment or a configuration to make sure that you test some of the expected behavior. Um, I think the, the real kind of test you start from the, the dev cluster will like the dev environment. >>And then like for, for you to go to staging and production, you will get more clear into what exactly that, um, um, configuration should be in the end. However, at the same time, again, it's, it's more about, um, kind of understanding why you continue to see this, the thing, like, I don't say that you definitely need containers at all times, but there are situations when you have like, again, multiple services and you need to replicate them. It's just the place to, to, to work with these kind of, um, setups. So, um, yeah, really depends on what you're trying to develop here. Nothing very specific, unfortunately, but get your product and your requirements are going to define what you're going to work with. >>Yeah, no, I think that's a great answer, right. I think one of the best answers in, in software engineering and engineering in general as well, it depends. Right. It's things are very specific when we start getting down to the details, but yeah, generally speaking, you know, um, I think containers are good for development, but yeah, it depends, right. It really depends. Is it helping you then? Great. If it's hindering you then, okay. Maybe think what's, what's the hindrance, right. And are containers the right solution. I agree. 110% and, >>And everything. I would like absurd this too as well. When we, again, we're talking about the development team and now we have this culture where we have the platform and infrastructure team, and then you have your engineering team separately, especially when the regulations are going to be segregated. So, um, it's quite important to understand that there might be a, uh, a level of up-skilling required. So pushing for someone to use containers, because this is the right way for you to develop your application might be not, uh, might not be the most efficient way to actually develop a product because you need to spend some time to make sure that the, the engineering team has the skills to do so. So I think it's, it's, again, going back to my answers here is like, truly be aware of how you're trying to develop how you actually collaborate and having that awareness of your platform can be quite helpful in developing your, uh, your publication, the more importantly, having less, um, maybe blockers pushing it to a production system. >>Yeah, yeah. A hundred percent. Yeah. The, uh, the cultural issue is, is, um, within the organization, right. Is a very interesting thing. And it, and I would submit that it's very hard from top down, right. Pushing down tools and processes down to the dev team, man, we'll just, we'll just rebel. It usually comes from the bottom up. Right. What's working for us, we're going to do right. And whether we do it in the shadows and don't let it know, or, or we've conformed, right. Yeah. A hundred percent. Um, interesting. I would like to think a little bit in the future, right? Like, let's say, I don't know, two, three years from now, if, if y'all could wave a and I'm from Texas. So I say y'all, uh, if you all could wave a magic wand, what, what, what would that bring about right. What, what would, what would be the best scenario? And, and we just don't have to say containers. Right. But, you know, what's the best development environment and I'm going to kick it over to you, Jacob. Cause I think you hinted at some of that with some hybrid type of stuff, but, uh, yeah. Implies, they need to keep you awake. You're, you're, you're, uh, almost on the other side of the world for me, but yeah, please. >>Um, I think, you know, it's, it's interesting because you have this technology that you've been, that's been brought from production, so it's not, um, necessarily like the right or the normal basis for development. So I think there's going to be some sort of realignment or renormalization in terms of, uh, you know, what the, what the basis and the abstractions that we're using on a daily basis are right. Like images and containers as they exist now are really designed for, um, for production use cases. And, and in terms of like, even even the ergonomics of opening a shell inside a container, I think is something that's, um, you know, not as polished or not as smooth as it could be because they've come from production. And so I think it's important, like not to, not to have people look at, look at the technology as it exists now and say like, okay, this is slightly rough around the edges, or it wasn't designed for this use case and think, oh, there's, you know, there's never any way I could use this for, for my development of workflows. >>I think it's, you know, it's something Docker's exploring now with, uh, with the, uh, dev containers, you know, it's, it's a new, and it's an experimental paradigm and it may not be what the final picture looks like. As, you know, you were saying, there's going to be kind of a baseline and you'll add features to that or iterate on that. Um, but I think that's, what's interesting about it, right? Cause it's, there's not a lot of things as developers that you get to play with that, um, that are sort of the new technology. Like if you're talking about things you're building to ship, you want to kind of use tried and true components that, you know, are gonna, that are going to be reliable. But I think containers are that interesting point where it's like, this is an established technology, but it's also being used in a way now that's completely different than what it was designed for. And, and, you know, as hackers, I think that's kind of an interesting opportunity to play with it, but I think, I think that's, what's going to happen is you're just going to see kind of those production, um, designed, uh, knobs kind of sanded down or redesigned for, for development. So that's kind of where I see it going. >>Yeah. Yeah. And I think that's what I was trying to hint out earlier is like, um, yeah, just because all these things are there, does it actually mean we need them locally? Right. Do they make sense? I, I agree. A hundred percent, uh, anybody else drawn? What are your thoughts around that? And then, and then, uh, I'll probably just ask all of you. I'd love to hear each of your thoughts of the future. >>I had a thought was maybe unrelated, but I was kind of wondering if we would see something on the side of like energy efficiency in some way. Um, and maybe it's just because I've been thinking a lot about like climate change and things like that recently, and trying to reduce like the, uh, the energy use energy use and things like that. Perhaps it's also because I recently got a new laptop, which on paper is super awesome, but in practice, as soon as you try to have like two slack tabs and a zoom call, you know, it's super fast, both for 30 seconds. And after 30 seconds, it blows its thermal budget and it's like slows down to a crawl. And I started to think, Hmm, maybe, you know, like before we, we, we were thinking about, okay, I don't have that much CPU available. So you have to be kind of mindful about that. >>And now I wonder how are we going to get in something similar to that, but where you try to save CPU cycles, not just because you don't have that many CPU cycles, but more because you know, that you can't go super fast for super long when you are on one of these like small laptops or tablets or phones, like you have this demo budget to take into account. And, um, I wonder if, and how like, is there something where goaltenders can do some things here? I guess it can be really interesting if they can do some the equivalent of like Docker top and Docker stats. And if I could see, like how much what's are these containers using, I can already do that with power top on Linux, for instance, like process by process. So I'm thinking I could see what's the power usage of, of some containers. Um, and I wonder if down the line, is this going to be something useful or is this just silly because we can just masquerade CPU usage for, for Watson and forget about it. >>Yeah. Yeah. It was super, super interesting, uh, perspective for sure. I'm going to shut up because I want to, I want to give, make sure I give Johannes and Katie time. W w what are your thoughts of the future around, let's just say, you know, container development in general, right? You want, you want to start absolutely. Oh, honest, Nate. Johns wants more time. I say, I'll try not to. Beneficiate >>Expensive here, but, um, so one of the things that we've we've touched upon earlier in the panel was multicloud strategy. And I was reading one of the data reports from it was about the concept of Kubernetes from gamer Townsville. But what is working for you to see there is that more and more organizations are thinking about multicloud strategy, which means that you need to develop an application or need an infrastructure or a component, which will allow you to run this application bead on a public cloud bead, like locally in a data center and so forth. And here, when it comes to this kind of, uh, maybe problems we come across open standards, this is where we require something, which will allow us to execute our application or to run our platform in different environments. So when you're thinking about the application or development of the application, one of the things that, um, came out in 2019 at was the Oakland. >>Um, I wish it was Kybella, which is a, um, um, an open application model based application, which allows you to describe the way you would like your service to be executed in different environments. It doesn't need to be well developed specifically for communities. However, the open application model is specialized. So specialized tries to cover multiple platforms. You will be able to execute your application anywhere you want it to. So I think that that's actually quite important because it completely obstructs what is happening underneath it, completely obstructs notions, such as containers, uh, or processes is just, I want this application and I want to have this kind of behavior is so example of, to scale in this conditions or to, um, to be exposed for these, uh, end points and so forth. And everything that I would like to mention here is that maybe this transcends again, the, uh, the logistics of the application development, but it definitely will impact the way we run our applications. >>So one of the biggest, well, one of the new trends that is kind of gaining momentum now has been around Plaza. And this is again, something which is trying to present what we have the on containers. Again, it's focusing on the, it's kind of a cyclical, um, uh, action movement that we have here. When we moved from the VMs to containers, it was smaller footprint. We want like better execution, one, this agnosticism of the platforms. We have the same thing happening here with Watson, but again, it consents a new, um, uh, kind of, well, it teaches in you, uh, in new climax here, where again, we shrink the footprint of the cluster. We have a better isolation of all the services. We have a better trend, like portability of how services and so forth. So there is a great potential out there. And again, like why I'm saying this is some of these technologies are gonna define the way we're gonna do our development of the application on our local environment. >>That's why it's important to kind of maybe have an eye there and maybe see if some of those principles of some of those technologies we can bring internally as well. And just this, like a, a final thought here, um, security has been mentioned as well. Um, I think it's something which has been, uh, at the forefront, especially when it comes to containers, uh, especially when it comes to enterprise organizations and those who are regulated, which I feel come very comfortable to run their application within a VM where you have the full isolation, you can do what we have complete control of what's happening inside that compute. So, um, again, security has been at the forefront at the moment. So I know it has mentioned in the panel before. I'd like to mention that we have the security white paper, which has been published. We have the software supply chain, white paper as well, which twice to figure out or define some of these good practices as well, again, which you can already apply from your development environment and then propagate them to production. So I'm just going to leave, uh, all of these. That's all. >>That's awesome. And yeah, well, while is very, very interesting. I saw the other day that, um, and I forget who it was, maybe, maybe all can remember, um, you know, running, running the node, um, engine inside of, you know, in Walzem inside of a browser. Right. And, uh, at first glance I said, well, we already have a JavaScript execution engine. Right. And it's kind of like Docker and Docker. So you have, uh, you know, you have the browser, then, then you have blossom and then you have a node, you know, a JavaScript runtime. And, and I didn't understand was while I was, um, you know, actually executing is JavaScript and it's not, but yeah, it's super interesting, super powerful. I always felt that the browser was, uh, Java's what write once run anywhere kind of solution, right. That never came about, they were thinking of set top, uh, TV boxes and stuff like that, which is interesting. >>I don't know, you'll some of the history of Java, but yeah. Wasm is, is very, I'm not sure how to correctly pronounce it, but yeah, it's extremely interesting because of the isolation in that boxing. Right. And running powerful languages that were used to inside of a more isolated environment. Right. And it's almost, um, yeah, it's kind of, I think I've mentioned it before that the containers inside of containers, right. Um, yeah. So Johannes, hopefully I gave you enough time. I delayed, I delayed as much as I can. My friend, you better, you better just kidding. I'm just kidding, please, please. >>It was by the way, stack let's and they worked together with Google and with Russell, um, developing the web containers, it's called there's, it's quite interesting. The research they're doing there. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, what we believe and I, I also believe is that, um, yeah, probably somebody is doing to death environments, what Docker did to servers and at least that good part. We hope that somebody will be us. Um, so what we mean by that is that, um, we think today we are still somehow emotionally attached to our dev environments. Right. We give them names, we massage them over time, which can also have its benefits, but it's, they're still pets in some way. Right. And, um, we believe that, um, environments in the future, um, will be treated similar like servers today as automated resources that you can just spin up and close down whenever you need them. >>Right. And, um, this trend essentially that you also see in serverless, if you look at what kind of Netlify is doing a bit with preview environments, what were sellers doing? Um, there, um, we believe will also arrive at, um, at Steph environments. It probably won't be there tomorrow. So it will take some time because if there's also, you know, emotion involved into, in that, in that transition, but ultimately really believe that, um, provisioning dev environments also in the cloud allows you to leverage the power of the cloud and to essentially build all that stuff that you need in order to work in advance. Right? So that's literally either command or a button. So either, I don't know, a command that spins up your local views code and SSH into, into a container, or you do it in a browser, um, will be the way that professional development teams will develop in the future. Probably let's see in our direction of document, we say it's 2000 to 23. Let's see if that holds true. >>Okay. Can we, can, we let's know. Okay. Let's just say let's have a friendly bet. I don't know that's going to be closed now, but, um, yeah, I agree. I, you know, it's my thought around is it, it's hard, right? Th these are hard. And what problems do you tackle first, right? Do you tackle the day, one of, uh, you know, of development, right. I joined a team, Hey, here's your machine? And you have Docker installed and there you go, pull, pull down your environment. Right. Is that necessarily just an image? You know, what, what exactly is that sure. Containers are involved. Right. But that's, I mean, you, you've probably all gone through it. You joined a team, new project, even open-source project, right there. There's a huge hurdle just to get everything configured, to get everything installed, to get it up and running, um, you know, set aside all understanding the code base. >>Cause that's a different issue. Right. But just getting everything running locally and to your point earlier, Jacob of around, uh, recreating, local production cues and environments and, you know, GPS or anything like that, right. Is extremely hard. You can't do a lot of that locally. Right. So I think that's one of the things I'd love to see tackled. And I think that's where we're tackling in dev environments, uh, with Docker, but then now how do you become productive? Right. And where do we go from there? And, uh, and I would love to see this kind of hybrid and you guys have been all been talking about it where I can, yes. I have it configured everything locally on my nice, you know, apple notebook. Right. And then, you know, I go with the family and we go on vacation. I don't want to drag this 16 inch, you know, Mac laptop with me. >>And I want to take my nice iPad with the magic keyboard and all the bang stuff. Right. And I just want to fire up and I pick up where I left off. Right. And I keep coding and environment feels, you know, as much as it can that I'm still working at backup my desktop. I think those, those are very interesting to me. And I think reproducing, uh, the production running runtime environments as close as possible, uh, when I develop my, I think that's extremely powerful, extremely powerful. I think that's one of the hardest things, right. It's it's, uh, you know, we used to say, we, you debug in production. Right. We would launch, right. We would do, uh, as much performance testing as possible. But until you flip that switch on a big, on a big site, that's where you really understand what is going to break. >>Right. Well, awesome. I think we're just about at time. I really, really appreciate everybody joining me. Um, it's been a pleasure talking to all of you. We have to do this again. If I, uh, hopefully, you know, I I'm in here in America and we seem to be doing okay with COVID, but I know around the world, others are not. So my heart goes out to them, but I would love to be able to get out of here and come see all of you and meet you in person, maybe break some bread together. But, um, again, it was a pleasure talking to you all, and I really appreciate you taking the time. Have a good evening. Cool. >>Thanks for having us. Thanks for joining us. Yes.

>>from >>around the globe. It's the Cube with digital coverage of AWS reinvent 2020 sponsored by Intel, AWS and our community partners. >>Hi. >>And welcome to the Cube. Virtual in our coverage of aws reinvent 2020. We have a cube virtual, and I'm your host, Justin Warren. And today, my guest is Shauna Wolverton, executive vice president of product at ZENDESK. And she's coming to us from Oakland, California. Shauna, welcome to the >>Cube. Thanks so much for having me. It is >>It is lovely to be here. How's the weather over there? In Oakland, >>we just suddenly went from summer to winter, which, uh, after the weather we've had is no complaints. >>All right, Well, as as a resident of Melbourne, where we have four seasons in one day, I am very familiar with rapid weather changes. So, uh, hopefully it's not too cold for you, and you get a little bit of nicer weather just before you go fully into winter. Absolutely. Now Zendesk and Amazon have a pretty close relationship is my understanding, and we know that Amazon is famous for its customer center at attitude. Wonderful thing about customers, of course, is that they're never really happy with everything that we have. So zendesk fit in with that with that relationship with Amazon. And how is your approach to customer? >>Yeah. I mean, the relationship we have with them is I'm really excited. Really Have gone all in on our move to the cloud. There are sole provider on DWI run all of our services, um, on AWS. And in addition, we have some great partnerships with, uh, Jacob Amazon Connect, which allows us to provide great telephony and call center services to our customers. We have a great partnership around event bridge and a zwelling app connect. So I think there is a fantastic relationship that we have where we're able to deliver not just our basic services, but to really take advantage of a lot of the services that Amazon on AWS provide s so that we can sort of accelerate our own roadmap and deliver great new features to our customers. >>Now, a lot of people have gone through a pretty similar adoption of the cloud of the moment. Unfortunate reason for doing so. But it certainly has driven the adoption very, very quickly. Uh, zendesk, of course, as you say, has been has been doing this for quite some time. So what have you noticed that stayed the same eso from last year to this year? What were you already doing that you're now noticing? Everyone else's discovering. Actually, this is pretty good. >>Well, you know, I think you know the rumors of of the call center and and the telephone as a channel. Their demise are greatly exactly. I think, um, for us. Much as we're all excited about chat and messaging and all of the different ways that we can connect with our customers, there's something about having a phone number and allowing people to pick up the phone and talk to a human that refuses to go out of style. And so I think, um, you know, our partnership with, uh with Amazon connection has been hugely powerful and even, you know, recently when a lot of this sort of acceleration has picked up, we've seen, um, you know, we saw a customer who had a power failure kind of massive failure of their own phone system. Be able thio, come to us, get, get, connect up and running incredibly quickly and start taking thousands of calls a day and that kind of sort of quick time to value fast start ability for our customers. Just this hugely important. Um, now. But really, you know, that's always been true, right? >>Yeah. I mean, when people want to call you and they want to talk to you, then they're not really happy If they can't get through that and particularly right now, being able to make that human human connection for me, I know that that that's been a really important part of getting through this. I work remotely most of the time. So actually, speaking to humans as we're doing now is is really refreshing change from just seeing everything on on a text screen. Um, so yeah, so it's It's interesting that the phone has actually has been so resilient, even though we were here from Ah, lot of young people say, Oh, we never answer the phone when someone calls, uh, but a lot of people are actually calling into businesses when they wanna make contact or when they when they don't see things on the website. So >>how does >>zendesk help, too, to integrate with what people are doing in their online and digital channels through to what they're doing with phone system. >>Yeah, but I think fundamentally people want their questions answered. One of my favorite studies that we did was around our benchmark study and we talked to Millennials. They said the first place they go to get help to their phone, but when you push it a little deeper, it was clear that they actually didn't know that the phone was for making phone calls. It was just all of the other help centers like like the first way that a lot of people today are looking for. Answers is, you know I wanna google it. And for that you need a really great help center has all that information out there and then you want toe have, you know, communities where people can talk to each other and get help. And then, you know, Mawr and Mawr. We're seeing the rise of messaging as a channel, both through the social channels like WhatsApp and Facebook Messenger Aziz Well, Azaz native messaging kind of ongoing conversations. He you ordered your dinner. It hasn't arrived. It's so great to be able to go into those applications and just message to the business and figure out what's what's going on and get that sort of instantaneous response as well, >>right? And you shared some stats with this regarding how much has moved across to some of these things phone based messaging channels. So tickets coming in has risen about 50% on DCA, paired to some gains on on live chat. So people are really embracing the idea of being about a message, not just individual talking to your friends in the group chat, but actually using that to engage with with the companies that they would normally use websites or or phone. It's like text chat is a thing. >>Yeah, I mean, it was funny to me. You know, I think we're still, uh, in the U. S. Not quite as far along as a lot of our international friends. When I when traveling was a thing that we did, you know, I was always like it was cool to see that there were billboards and ads that had what that phone numbers on them is a really, you know, way that businesses were wanting to engage. I mean, you think about be wanting to be where your customers are today. So many of us, um do have you know what's happened? Wechat and line and vibrant. They're all in our pocket. And being able to provide all of those two businesses is a new way to engage. I think we're finding is hugely powerful, >>right? So with with all of these dynamic changes that have been happening, and it sounds like it's actually just sort of riding the wave of what customers were already doing, we're just doing it just that little bit mawr. But have you noticed any other larger changes? Possibly ones that aren't related thio a pandemic, Just general shifts that have been happening that you've seen in your customer base? >>Yeah. I mean, like I said, I think so much of what we're seeing is that people, uh, in general want answers quickly, and whether it's a phone call is great. And like I said, people are not going to stop calling. But I think people want to make sure less than like, I need a human to have a conversation I want. I want the answer quickly, and that's where we're really focused in both thinking about how we provide tools around automating some of getting those answers using, uh, a i N m l so that people can come to us, ask questions and we can get them the best answer very quickly without, um, having Thio engage a person. I think things idea of quick resolution is clearly becoming one of the most important things in customer sentiment. I think we know that, um, Mawr and Mawr. This idea of how quickly I can get my question's resolved or how easy it is for me to do business with you is a huge differentiator in how people make buying >>choices. Mm. On that. That automation has long been a new track tive idea. I mean, I'm I'm old enough to remember expert systems and and having a go at doing this kind of heavily automated way of resolving particularly common issues. And I mean, we were familiar with Coulson, a chat scripts. Where there's here are the top three issues and or it will be in the I V. R. Where it's like we're currently experiencing this particular problems, so that resolves your question quite quickly. But there's been a big rise in things like chatbots and and the use of AI. How far advanced. Is that because I still remember some of the early forays into that were a little bit flaky, and that could actually exacerbate the poor customer experience. I'm already having a problem, and and now you're chatbots getting in the way. Have they gotten a lot better? Are they Are they up to the challenge? >>Yeah. I mean, I think what's really critical when you're thinking about automation? Um, in the conversations you're having with customers, it's it's two things. One Don't try to hide that. That you're a computer. No, no, my name is Chad. I am. I am a human. Um, you're not in the vault. Yeah, there's not anyone. Um, so I think being really clear. And then, um e think surfacing how thio very easily opt out of those flows. I think, um, you know, automation is great, but it's not away. You shouldn't think of it as a way to frustrate your users to keep them tied up until you can get to them. It really is. Give them some quick options. And if they don't? If those don't solve their problems, really make sure that your you've got an escape valve, right? We were putting out a new sort of flow build their product zendesk. And we have all of the different, uh, words that someone could say that air like smashing the zero button. That means please transfer me to a person, right? You're driving me crazy. Let me connect you to an agent. Eso We're really making sure that it's easy, um, for customers to provide the solution where their customers can get the help they need rather than I >>really like that. That's That's something I think that gets a little bit lost in the focus on computers and and on automation is that the reason we do this is to help the humans. So when we have these AI systems, it's not actually to replace. The human interaction is to make it better. It's to make mean that we can then get to that genuine connection. Computers a fabulous and when they work, it's when they don't when they frustrate things that that bothers us. And that's generally why we're calling is that something has already gone wrong and we're a bit frustrated. So adding more frustration, doesn't it? Sounds like a good approach. It sounds like zendesk really got that? That dolled in very, very well. Is that something that you've you've always had? Is it something that you've refined over time? And can you teach it to a bunch of other companies? >>Way would love to teach each other. People know, I think e think we have always thought about how the machines can help the humans. And I think one it's how can they help the customers, of course. But the other side that I don't think people talk about quite a much is how can we use computers to help agents? Right. So you're talking to a person, and how can we take sort of the best answers that they've given Thio other customers and surface those, um, when When a new agent is coming on board, how do we suggest, um, you know, the different kinds of work flows that they might want to use to solve this problem in a more dynamic way. So I really like to think of the computers never as a replacement but really as a sort of hidden superpower, Um, that organizations have to make every agent one of their best >>agents, right? Yes, it is a kind of external cyborg thing. I mean, I can't remember anything these days. I constantly right less and they all live in computers. But they are. That's the kind of society that we live with today. And I think we should remember to embrace that side of things. That ah, lot of life has actually gotten a lot better through the use of these computing systems. It's not all terrible. It's, um, and I think more companies could probably learn from zendesk. And the approach that you've taken to center the humans, both the customers and and your internal staff, the call center and and the people who are providing this service. No one enjoys it when things are breaking and and things have gone wrong being able to resolve that quickly. Thanks a better experience for everybody. >>Yeah. I mean, I think we find over and over again sometimes you know, if you can handle an issue that's gone wrong, Um well, you can actually induce more loyalty than you know. If someone never contacted. You'd also if you could really take advantage of the times you have, unfortunately, maybe messed up on bake those customers happy. You really do you know, put so much in the sort of loyalty piggy bank for later. It's really great. >>So for some of the companies that have maybe struggled with this a little bit and particularly under very trying conditions, is there's some advice that you could give to them. Is there some places that they should should start to investigate this when they want to improve the way that they handle customer service, perhaps with things like Zendesk. >>Yeah, I mean, I think a lot of what what we're focused on right now is the this channel that's coming. Like I said, we think a lot about social messaging, but also in native messaging. Andi, how you can have a sort of ongoing long term conversation for a long time customer service, sort of Holy Grail was chat, and you could have a agent online and a human online, and you could solve their problem and then move on right And and sometimes those things take a little longer to solve. Or, you know, you might have a big issue and a whole bunch of people who have an issue and maybe not enough agents to solve them. And so, with messaging. We've really changed the dynamic. So chat was this completely synchronous, Almost like a phone call. Kind of experience and more messaging. You're able to live in this sort of duality where we can have a conversation if we're both here. But just like with your friends, right? Sometimes you throw a message out to offend you. Put it in your pocket, you pick it up, and you could pick up the conversation right where you left off. So bring that paradigm into your customer support experience really allows you to take some of that fear out of handling the volume that might come from chat. To be able to sort of have these ongoing sort of back and forth conversations over time. Andi also and give that that persistent so that we're always both in the same place when we show up again together >>embracing what the technology does well and avoiding what it doesn't do. Well, that that sounds like a plan. >>Shawna, >>this has been fabulous. It is. It is always very edifying for me. Thio here, when companies are doing well and centering the humans to make the technology improve all of our lives. Um It has been wonderful to have you here on the Cube. >>Thanks so much. It was a lot of fun, right? >>And thank you for joining in and and watching us here of the Cube virtual and our special coverage off AWS reinvent 2020. Do come back and look for more coverage off. Reinvent 2020 right here on the Cube. Next time I've been your host, Justin Warren, and we'll see you again soon.

>> Hey welcome back everybody. Jeff Frick here at theCUBE. We're at Node Summit 2017 in Downtown San Francisco. 800 people hanging out at the Mission Bay Conference Center talking about development and really monumental growth curve. One of the earlier presenters have one project last year. I think 15 this year, 22 in development and another 75 toy projects. The development curve is really steep. IBM's here, Microsoft, Google, all the big players so there is a lot of enterprise momentum as well and we're happy to have our next guest. Who's really started this show and one of the main sponsors of the show He's Charles Beeler. He's a general partner at Rally Ventures. Charles great to see you. >> Good to be back. Good to see you. >> Yeah, absolutely. Just kind of general impression. You've been doing this for a number of years I think when we talked earlier. Ryan Dawles interview from I don't even know what year it is I'd have to look. >> 2012, January 2012. >> 2012. It's still one of our most popular interviews of all the thousands we've done on the theCUBE, and now I kind of get it. >> Right place, right time but it was initially a lot. In 2011, we were talking about nodes. Seemed like a really interesting project. No one was really using it in a meaningful way. Bryan Cantrell from Joint. I know you all have talked before, walked me through the Hello World example on our board in my office, and we decided let's go for it. Let's see if we can get a bunch of enterprises to come and start talking about what they're doing. So January 2012, there were almost none who were actually doing it, but they were talking about why it made sense. And you fast forward to 2017, so Home Away was the company that actually had no apps. Now 15, 22 in development like you were mentioning and right now on stage you got Twitter talking about Twitter light. The breath and it's not just internet companies when you look at Capital One. You look at some of the other big banks and true enterprise companies who are using this. It's been fun to watch and for us. We do enterprise investing so it fits well but selfishly this community is just a fun group of people to be around. So as much as this helps for our rally and things. We've always been in awe of what the folks around the node community have meant to try to do, and it did start with Ryan and kind of went from there. It's fun to be back and see it again for the fifth annual installment. >> It's interesting some of the conversations on stage were also too about community development and community maturation and people doing bad behavior and they're technically strong. We've seen some of these kind of growing pains in some other open source communities. The one that jumps out is Open Stack as we've watched that one kind of grow and morph over time. So these are good. There's bad problems and good problems. These are good growing pain problems. >> And that's an interesting one because you read the latest press about the venture industry and the issues are there, and people talk more generally about the tech industry. And it is a problem. It's a challenge and it starts with encouraging a broad diverse group of people who would be interested in this business. >> Jeff: Right, right. >> And getting into it and so the node community to me is always been and I think almost any other out source community could benefit at looking at not just how they've done it, but who the people are and what they've driven. For us, one of the things we've always tried to do is bring a diverse set of speakers to come and get engaged. And it's really hard to go and find enough people who have the time and willingness to come up on stage and it's so rewarding when you start to really expose the breath of who's out there engaged and doing great stuff. Last year, we had Stacy Kirk, who she runs a company down in L.A. Her entire team pretty much is based in Jamaica brought the whole team out. >> Jeff: Really? >> It was so much fun to have whole new group people. The community just didn't know, get to know it and be in awe of what they're building. I thought the electron conversation. They were talking about community, that was Jacob from GitHub. It's an early community though. They're trying to figure it out. On the Open Stack side, it's very corporate driven. It's harder to have those conversations. In the node community, it's still more community driven and as a result they're able to have more of the conversation around how do we build a very inclusive group of people who can frankly do a more effective job of changing development. >> Jeff: Right, well kudos to you. I mean you open up the conference in your opening remarks talking about the code of conduct and it's kind of like good news bad news. Like really we have to talk about what should basically be. It's common sense but you have to do it and that's part of the program. It was Woman Attack Wednesday today so we've got a boat load of cards going out today with a lot of the women and it's been proven time and time again. That the diversity of opinions tackling any problem is going to lead to a better solution and hopefully this is not new news to anybody either. >> No and we have a few scholarship folks from Women who code over here. We've done that with them for the last few years but there are so many organizations that anyone who actually wants to spend a little time figuring out how can I be apart of the, I don't know if I'd call it solution but help with a challenge that we have to face. It's Women who code. It's Girls who code. It's Black girls code and it's not just women. There's a broad diverse set of people we need to engage. >> Jeff: Right, right. >> We have a group here, Operation Code who's working with Veterans who would like to find a career, and are starting to become developers and we have three or four sponsored folks from Operation Code too. And again, it's just rewarding to watch people who are some of the key folks who helped really make node happen. Walking up to some stranger who's sort of staring around. Hasn't met anybody. Introduce himself say, "Hey, what are you interested in "and how can I help?" And it's one of the things that frankly brings us back to do this year after year. It's rewarding. >> Well it's kind of interesting piece of what node is. Again we keep hearing time and time again. It's an easy language. Use the same language for the front end or the back end. >> Yep. >> Use a bunch of pre-configured model. I think Monica from Intel, she said that a lot of the codes they see is 2% is your code and everything you're leveraging from other people. And we see in all these tech conferences that the way to have innovation is to label more people to contribute. That have the tools and the data and that's really kind of part of what this whole ethos is here. >> And making it. Just generally the ethos around making it easier to develop and deploy. And so when we first started, Google was nowhere to be found and Microsoft was actually already here. IBM wasn't here yet and now you look at those folks. The number of submissions we saw for talk proposals. The depth of engagement within those organizations. Obviously Google's got their go and a bunch of it but node is a key part of what they're doing. Node and I think for both IBM and also for Google is the most deployed language or the most deployed stack in terms of what they're seeing on their Cloud, Which is why they're here. And they're seeing just continued growth, so yeah it drives that view of how can we make software easier to work with, easier to put together, create and deploy and it's fun to watch. Erstwhile competitors sitting comparing notes and ideas and someone said to me. One of the Google folks, Miles Boran had said. Mostly I love coming to this because the hallway chatter here is just always so fascinating. So you go hear these great talks and you walk out and the speakers are there. You get to talk to them and really learn from them. >> I want to shift gears a little. I always great to get a venture capitalist on it. Everybody wants to hear your thoughts and you see a lot of stuff come across your desk. As you just look at the constant crashing of waves of innovation that we keep going through here and I know that's apart of why you live here and why I do too. And Cloud clearly is probably past the peak of the wave but we're just coming into IoT and internet of things and 5G which is going to be start to hit in the near future. As you look at it from an enterprise perspective. What's getting you excited? What are some of the things that maybe people aren't thinking about that are less obvious and really the adoption of enterprises of these cutting edge technologies. Of getting involved in open source is really phenomenal thing of environment for start ups. >> Yeah and what you're seeing as the companies, the original enterprises that were interested in nodes. You decided to start deploying. The next question is alright this worked, what else can we be doing? And this is where you're seeing the advent of first Cloud but now how people are thinking about deployment. There's a lot of conversation here this week about ServerList. >> Jeff: Right, right. We were talking about containers. Micro services and next thing you know people are saying oh okay what else can we be doing to push the boundaries around this? So from our perspective, what we think about when we think about when we think of enterprise and infrastructure and Dev Ops et cetera is it is an ever changing thing. So Cloud as we know it today is sort, it's done but it's not close to being finished when you think about how people are making car-wny apps and deploying them. How that keeps changing, questions they keep asking but also now to your point when you look at 5G. When you look at IoT, the deployment methodology. They're going to have to change. The development languages are going to change and that will once again result in further change across the entire infrastructure. How am I going to go to place so I would say that we have not stopped seeing innovative stuff in any of those categories. You asked about where do we see kind of future things that we like. Like NEVC, if I don't say AI and ML and what are the other ones I'm suppose to say? Virtual reality, augmented reality, drones obviously are huge. >> It's anti drones. Drone detection. >> We look at those as enabling technology. We're more interested from a rally perspective and applied use of those technologies so there's some folks from GrowBio here today. And I'm sure you know Grail, right they raise a billion dollars. The first question I asked the VP who is here. I said, did you cure cancer yet? 'Cause it's been like a year and a half. They haven't yet, sorry. But what's real interesting is when you talk to them about what are they doing. So first they're using node but the approach they're taking to try to make their software get smarter and smarter and smarter by the stuff they see how they're changing. It's just fundamentally different than things people were thinking about a few years ago. So for us, the applied piece is we want to see companies like a Grail come in and say, here's what we're doing. Here's why and here's how we're going to leverage all of these enabling technologies to go accomplish something that no one has ever been able to do before. >> Jeff: Right, right. And that's what gets us excited. The idea of artificial intelligence. It's cool, it's great. I love talking about it. Walk me through how you're going to go do something compelling with that. Block chain is an area that we're spending, have been but continue to spend a lot of time looking right now not so much from a currency perspective. Just very compelling technology and the breath of our capability there is incredible. We've met in the last week. I met four entrepreneurs. There are three of them who are here talking about just really novel ways to take advantage of a technology that is still just kind of early stages, from our perspective of getting to a point where people can really deploy within large enterprise. And then I'd say the final piece for us and it's not a new space. But kind of sitting over all of this is security. And as these things change constantly. The security needs are going to change right. The foot print in terms of what the attack surface looks like. It gets bigger and bigger. It gets more complex and the unfortunate reality of simplifying the development process is you also sometimes sort of move out the security thought process from a developer perspective. From a deployment perspective, you assume I've heard companies say well we don't need to worry about security because we keep our stuff on Amazon. As a security investor, I love hearing that. As a user of some of those solutions it's scares me to death and so we see this constant evolution there. And what's interesting you have, today I think we have five security companies who are sponsoring this conference. The first few years, no one even wanted to talk about security. And now you have five different companies who are here really talking about why it matters if you're building out apps and deploying in the Cloud. What you should be thinking about from a security perspective. >> Security is so interesting because to me, it's kind of like insurance. How much is enough? And ultimate you can just shut everything down and close it off but that's not the solution. So where's the happy medium and the other thing that we hear over and over is it's got to be baked in all the layers of the cake. It can't just be the castle and moat methodology anymore. >> Charles: Absolutely. >> How much do you have? Where do you put it in? But where do you stop? 'cause ultimately it's like a insurance. You can just keep buying more and more. >> And recognize the irony of sitting here in San Francisco while Black Hat's taking place. We should both be out there talking about it too. (laughing) >> Well no 'cause you can't go there with your phone, your laptop. No, you're just suppose to bring your car anymore. >> This is the first year in four years that my son won't be at DEF CON. He just turned seven so he set the record at four, five and six as the youngest DEF CON attendee. A little bitter we're not going this year and shout out because he was first place in the kid's capture the flag last year. >> Jeff: Oh very good. >> Until he decided to leave and go play video games. So the way we think about the question you just asked on security, and this is actually, I give a lot of credit to Art Covella. He's one of our venture partners. He was the CEO at our safe for a number of years. Ran it post DMC acquisition as well is it's not so much of a okay, I've got this issue. It could be pay it ransom or whatever it is. People come in and say we solve that. You might solve the problem today but you don't solve the problem for the future typically. The question is what is it that you do in my environment that covers a few things. One, how does it reduce the time and energy my team needs to spend on solving these issues so that I can use them? Because the people problem in security is huge. >> Right. >> And if you can reduce the amount of time people are doing automated. What could be automated task, manual task and instead get them focused on hired or bit sub, you get to cover more. So how does it reduce the stress level for my team? What do I get to take out? I don't have unlimited budget. That could be buying point solutions. What is it that you will allow me to replace so that the net cost to me to add your solution is actually neutral or negative, so that I can simplify my environment. Again going back to making these work for the people, and then what is it that you do beyond claiming that you're going to solve a problem I have today. Walk me through how this fits into the future. They're not a lot of the thousands of-- >> Jeff: Those are not easy questions. >> They're not easy questions and so when you ask that and apply that to every company who's at Black Hat today. Every company at RSA, there's not very many of that companies who can really answer that in a concise way. And you talk to seesos, those are the questions they're starting to ask. Great, I love what you're doing. It's not a question of whether I have you in my budget this year or next. What do I get to do in my environment differently that makes my life easier or my organization's life easier, and ultimately nets it out at a lower cost? It's a theme we invest in. About 25% of our investments have been in the securities space and I feel like so far every one of those deals fits in some way in that category. We'll see how they play out but so far so good. >> Well very good so before we let you go. Just a shout out, I think we've talked before. You sold out sponsorship so people that want to get involved in node 2018. They better step up pretty soon. >> 2018 will happen. It's the earliest we've ever confirmed and announced next year's conference. It usually takes me five months before >> Jeff: To recover. >> I'm willing to think about it again. It will happen. It will probably happen within the same one week timeframe, two week timeframe. I actually, someone put a ticket tier up for next year or if you buy tickets during the conference the next two days. You can buy a ticket $395 for today. They're a $1000 bucks. It's a good deal if people want to go but the nice thing is we've never had a team that out reaches the sponsors. It's always been inbound interest. People who want to be involved and it's made the entire thing just a lot of fun to be apart of. We'll do it next year and it will be really fascinating to see how much additional growth we see between now and then. Because based on some of the enterprises we're seeing here. I mean true Fortune 500, nothing to do with technology from a revenue perspective. They just used it internally. You're seeing some really cool development taking place and we're going to get some of that on stage next year. >> Good, well congrats on a great event. >> Thanks. And thanks for being here. It's always fun to have you guys. >> He's Charles Beeler. I'm Jeff Frick. You're watching theCUBE, Node Summit 2017. Thanks for watching. (uptempo techno music)

(electronic music) >> Announcer: Live from Austin, Texas, it's theCUBE, covering DockercCon 2017. Brought to you by Docker and support from Asseco System Partners. >> Welcome back to theCUBE, I'm Stu Mittleman, with my co-host, Jim Kobielus. Happy to have on the program, I'm shocked to say a first time guest. Someone that I've known in the community here for many years, but Michael Ducy, who is Director of Product Marketing at Chef Software. Not a chef. Maybe you might-- >> Not a chef, although I do cook at home (laughing). >> Maybe in Chef. Not a puppeteer. >> Not a puppeteer. >> But you work for Chef Software. So thank you so much for joining us. >> Yes, thanks for having me. >> Alright, so Michael, for the audience that doesn't know you... I think a lot of people here in the community would know you. I've known you through Twitter for many years. What's your role at Chef? What do you work on? What's your passion? >> Sure, so right now I do product marketing for our open source projects. So Chef Software actually has a commercial product, and then we also have three open source projects that we maintain. The first was the original one that we're named after, which is Chef, which is open source automation or configuration management. The second one being Inspect, which is all about how do you basically write compliance rules as code. And then third one, as you can see from my shirt, is called Habitat. So Habitat is a new way of thinking about how do you package up automation for your application. And then how can you easily export that application and the automation into something like a container. I've had various roles at Chef though over the four years that I've worked for them. My passion's always kind of been open source communities, an involvement in open source communities and helping grow those communities. >> Yeah, and people send you lots of stuff about goats. >> People send me lots of stuff about goats (laughing). There was a joke that was made at a conference about waking up next to a goat. This was a conference in Amsterdam, which is I'm sure I wouldn't be the first one that woke up next to a goat in Amsterdam (laughing). But since then, the whole goat thing kind of took off after that. >> Yeah, so, Chef, you understand many things about Docker. So one of the things, we come in and we talk about there's Docker, the company, there's Docker, the community. A lot of what was talked about in the keynote today was about open source. >> Umm-hmm. >> So how's Docker doing? What interested you in the keynote? How do you as an individual in Chef see what's going on in the Docker ecosystem? And what do you think? >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> So we've been put in a little bit of an interesting position as Chef, the company. And not only has Chef, the company, been put in this position, but all of our competitors have as well. So there's been a movement as Docker and containers got more popular that the idea that configuration management is no longer needed. And from a inside the container perspective, configuration management really isn't needed. But what you do end up realizing is that there's this whole idea of what you need to actually run a container in production effectively, that still needs to go into that container. And we kind of call it The Learning Cliff of Containers. And I tweeted out an image about... that why co-worker draw on a whiteboard. That shows in development you just have Docker and it's really easy, but then when you move it to production there's this whole other stack of concerns. And Docker or your container runtime is just one of them. And so, we've been focusing more on kind of shifting into those ideas of how do you actually run containers effectively in production. What we saw in the keynote today is more of an emphasis on things like security, right. That's definitely been an area that we're interested in, especially from a compliance perspective, and doing work around having our open source projects, being able to scan containers for compliance. >> Yeah, it's funny before the keynote they have this fun little thing. They have this 8-bit video game playing. >> Right. >> And it was like they were collecting coins and they were leveling up, but they kept hitting lots of bombs (laughing) and things were exploding all the time. And everybody was joking online. It was like, Oh, it's like putting Docker in production. I will level up (laughing) and I will get past everything, but, Boy, I'm going to have lots of bombs going off and things-- >> Sure. >> And things that I'll have to deal with, and there were lots of fun little comments that they threw out there. It's like, Checking documentation. Oh, documentation says you don't have documentation. (laughing) So just fun stuff like that. But it's challenging. Solomon says, We want this put in deployment, but as we know it's not quite there yet. There's lots of things, that's where you guys fit in. >> Umm-hmm. >> A lot of the ecosystem helps to solidify that about you here. >> Michael, what are those concerns that you allude to? There's security, and what other concerns are there for containers in production that need to be represented in the configuration management portfolio or profile you're describing? >> Sure, so there's the security aspects of it is focused on what vulnerabilities are in your container. >> Yeah. >> And there's been some interesting studies recently that showed 24% of the official images are shipping with some sort of a vulnerability. Some of that you have to accept, and then also realize can you do risk mitigation around that vulnerability. There's concerns about how the application is actually configured when you ship it as well. So am I doing things like storing secrets in config files. Am I disabling versions of ISOCELL that's no longer a best practice anymore because it's actually broken. And then there's other aspects around how do you things like service discovery, how do you do credentials or secrets. And how do you get them into the container securely. There's networking aspects. There's last malconfiguration of the application, so-- >> Right. >> If you take a container from one environment to another environment and kind of work it through a lifecycle. There are things at runtime that you have to change in its configuration to make it run in that particular environment. >> Right. >> So it's all of those little knobs that you still have to turn. And that's why-- >> The entire DevOps lifecycle essentially there's all those little knobs and... >> There's all these little knobs and this has always been a little bit of a frustration for me, in that PaaS sounds great, platform as a service sounds great. And this idea that you can just take this blob and go run it. But What people don't realize is there still are tons of knobs that you have to turn, and there are tons of concerns that you have to worry about as an operations person or as a DevOps person or as a developer when you actually are taking that code into production. >> Right. >> Michael, we've seen the cloud providers and some of the other open source providers kind of chipping away. Red Hat bought Ansible, every time I go to Amazon re:Invent or Google, it seems like they're trying to build more things up the stack and into their platforms. >> Umm-hmm. >> So what is Chef's position here? How do you guys play across all these environments and kind of maintain and grow what you're doing? >> Yeah, so we've started to take a little bit more of a different focus and... Well, not a different focus... A different focus for us. Traditionally, we focus on infrastructure and operations people and then as we moved up the stack and DevOps became more popular. We definitely focused on that because that's kind of our bread and butter. But what we started to do with Habitat is focus more on building a developer experience. So how can a developer take their code-- >> Yeah. >> Easily wrap automation around it, and then ship it out into production. And this is the new world for us, as coming from the operations side of things. And really starting to think about what does the developer tooling look like and the developer experience look like. We're taking source code, building that source code, and then deploying that source code to production. >> Yeah, and it's interesting, it sounds... We talk about Docker. They very much started out in the developer world, and then they're kind of moving to kind of the Op side more. >> Umm-hmm. >> And to the enterprise side more. You're almost going-- >> Michael: And we're kind of-- >> A little bit in reverse, huh. >> Yeah, going a little bit in reverse, yeah. >> Yeah, it's interesting because usually it's like, Okay, I start with developers, get them excited and then figure out to monetize. So, yeah, what are you seeing in your customer base? >> Sure. >> Who do you sell to in that aspect? Yeah, I'm just curiosity at some of the buyers. >> Well, so, traditionally, a tool like Chef or, even some of our competitors would be bought by what's called the Shared Services Team, right. And that Shared Services Team is going to take that and try and work economies of scale, right. And try and deploy that across all of the different BMs or machines that they have to manage, right. And we've seen this shift as we moved more up the stack and as the industry's shifted more up the stack. Of what the Shared Services Team actually needs to transform themselves into is more of a developer services team. So how can I offer the services that a developer can get via an API, to quickly deploy the application services that they need. And when I say application services, I'm thinking about all of the things that you need to actually go and persist the data. The business logic side of things are very easy to do in containers or PaaS. But when you're actually having to go and persist data in something like Red-S are Mongo or MySQL, that's a whole other area of concern that you have to worry about. So what we've actually had started to do is the core team that actually works on Habitat has a very, very big background in distributive systems. So what we've started to do is bake a lot of that foundational ideas about how you effectively run large-scale distributive systems into Habitat, which makes it very easy to then go and take that developer, take their source code, and deploy it using Habitat, using this knowledge that we have from distributive systems. So we actually see it as a benefit that we come from this infrastructure background because we have experience of actually running things in production, right. >> Umm-hmm, what do you see as some of the challenges that we still need to face in this kind of container ecosystem? I know one of the questions I have coming in is you talked about stateful applications. We know storage still needs some time to mature. Networking seems to be a little bit further along in what they're doing. >> Umm-hmm. >> What's your take as to what's doing well? What still needs some more work? >> Yeah, storage is one of those areas that... And persisting data is one of those areas that we're not able to get around, right. And if you look at some people's recommendations, so Pivotal, for example, recommends running persistent services on BMs, right. If you look at the Google approach or the Cuber-netee's approach, they actually recommend that you use a cloud provider services to go and run those data services for you, until you think you're good enough to actually go and run it like Google. (laughing) And they're also hedging on the fact that you'll probably never be good enough to run it like Google. >> Yeah, yeah. >> So, kind of building that expertise of running those distributive systems in an effective way is kind of the area in running those persistent data services in a highly scalable way is kind of the big challenge that operations still hasn't figured out. And developers also need work to... Need help to help figure that out as well. >> Yeah, the big theme this morning was really about scalability. When you talked to customers, what does scale mean to them? What are the limitations they're having? I loved when you talked about what you're doing with Habitat. Helping customers, so that they don't have to have the expertise to build distributive systems because that's the software challenge of our time-- >> Yeah. >> Is moving to that. What we talk at Wicky-bon, it's moving from the old enterprise where it was like kind of baked in the hardware to a distributive, where the software model, anything had failed, there's no single point of failure, I can scale. >> Yeah. >> What do you think? >> Well, to kind of paraphrase our CTO, Adam Jacob, he always likes to say ignore scaling problems because you don't have a scaling problem. (laughing) And you don't have a scaling problem until you have a scaling problem, right. So if you kind of look at where your time's most effectively spent, your time is more effectively spent at actually building an application that people want to use, and worry about the scaling problem when the scaling problem comes up, right. And the other thing is that you might never hit that scaling problem, so everyone wants to be the next Uber, everyone wants to be the next Netflix, and so forth. And so, if you go in as a startup or, even a startup inside of a large enterprise trying to do a new application. If you start by trying to solve the scaling problem out the door, then what you end up losing is a lot of development cycles that you could actually be spending on building something that people actually want to use. And then worrying about the scaling problem when you hit the scaling problem. >> So, Mike, last question I have for you. A month from now, you're going to be back in Austin. >> A month from now, I'm going to be back in Austin. >> So tell us about ChefConf. >> Yes. >> What can people expect? Give us a compare and contrast to kind of the communities, the type of people that attend. I expect we'll see more shorts because it's going to be a little bit warmer and more humid here in Austin (laughing). >> Yes, so we're back at Austin for the second ChefConf in Austin. We were here also last year. We were in Austin in July last year. >> Ooooh. >> Which was not a fun experience (laughing). The air conditioning was very nice. The pool was also very nice. (laughing) But what you can expect is more practical advice to how to actually run these things in production. We have a lot of talks about Habitat. I think we're going to have a lot... Nine talks on Habitat. We have a lot of talks from the Chef community about running actual systems in production in a lot of real world experience, which is something that we always try and hover into our conferences. We also have a day that's going to be focused on our open source community as well, so where our open source and contributors can get together to talk about problems that they're trying to solve in our open source communities as well. And then on the last day, of course, as every conference does we're going to have a hack day, where you can contribute to open source, our open source, or we can help you get started solving a problem that you have, but there'll be a lot of people there that can answer questions for you about the problems that you're trying to solve in running distributive systems. >> Alright, well, Michael Ducy, happy to welcoming you into the ranks of theCUBE alumni, finally. >> Yes, finally, thank you very much. >> And thank you for sharing all the updates with us. And thank you for watching theCUBE. (electronic music) >> I remember...