>>from around the globe. It's the Cube with coverage of Yukon and Cloud. Native Con North America 2020 Virtual brought to you by Red Hat The Cloud, Native Computing Foundation and Ecosystem Partners. Hello, everyone. And welcome back to the cubes Ongoing coverage of Cuba con North America. Joe Fernandez is here. He's with Stephanie, Cheras and Joe's, the V, P and GM for core cloud platforms. That red hat and Stephanie is this s VP and GM of the Red Hat Enterprise. Lennox bu. Two great friends of the Cube. Awesome seeing you guys. How you doing? >>It's great to be here, Dave. Yeah, thanks >>for the opportunity. >>Hey, so we all talked, you know, recently, uh, answerable fest Seems like a while ago, but But we talked about what's new? Red hat really coming at it from an automation perspective. But I wonder if we could take a view from open shift and what's new from the standpoint of you really focus on helping customers, you know, change their operations and operationalize. And Stephanie, Maybe you could start, and then, you know, Joe, you could bring in some added color. >>No, that's great. And I think you know one of the things we try and do it. Red hat clearly building off of open source. We have been focused on this open hybrid cloud strategy for, you know, really years. Now the beauty of it is that hybrid cloud and open hybrid cloud continues to evolve right with bringing in things like speed and stability and scale and now adding in other footprints, like manage services as well as edge and pulling that all together across the whole red hat portfolio from the platforms, right? Certainly with Lennox and roll into open shift in the platform with open shift and then adding automation, which certainly you need for scale. But it's ah, it's continues to evolve as the as the definition of open hybrid cloud evolves. >>Great. So thank you, Stephanie jokes. You guys got hard news here that you could maybe talk about 46? >>Yeah. Eso eso open shift is our enterprise kubernetes platform. With this announcement, we announced the release of open ship 4.6 Eso eso We're doing releases every quarter tracking the upstream kubernetes release cycle. So this brings communities 1.19, which is, um but itself brings a number of new innovations, some specific things to call out. We have this new automated installer for open shift on bare metal, and that's definitely a trend that we're seeing is more customers not only looking at containers but looking at running containers directly on bare metal environments. Open shift provides an abstraction, you know, which combines Cuban. And he's, uh, on top of Lennox with RL. I really across all environments, from bare metal to virtualization platforms to the various public clouds and out to the edge. But we're seeing a lot of interest in bare metal. This is basically increasing the really three automation to install seamlessly and manage upgrades in those environments. We're also seeing a number of other enhancements open shifts service mesh, which is our SDO based solution for managing, uh, the interactions between micro services being able to manage traffic against those services. Being able to do tracing. We have a new release of that on open shift Ford out six on then, um, some work specific to the public cloud that we started extending into the government clouds. So we already supported AWS and Azure. With this release, we added support for the A W s government cloud as well. Azaz Acela's Microsoft Azure government on dso again This is really important to like our public sector customers who are looking to move to the public cloud leveraging open shift as an abstraction but wanted thio support it on the specialized clouds that they need to use with azure gonna meet us Cup. >>So, joke, we stay there for a minute. So so bare metal talking performance there because, you know, you know what? You really want to run fast, right? So that's the attractiveness there. And then the point about SDO in the open, open shift service measure that makes things simpler. Maybe talk a little bit about sort of business impact and what customers should expect to get out of >>these two things. So So let me take them one at a time, right? So so running on bare metal certainly performances a consideration. You know, I think a lot of fixed today are still running containers, and Cuban is on top of some form of virtualization. Either a platform like this fear or open stack, or maybe VMS in the in one of the public clouds. But, you know containers don't depend on a virtualization layer. Containers only depend on Lennox and Lennox runs great on bare metal. So as we see customers moving more towards performance and Leighton see sensitive workloads, they want to get that Barry mental performance on running open shift on bare metal and their containerized applications on that, uh, platform certainly gives them that advantage. Others just want to reduce the cost right. They want to reduce their VM sprawl, the infrastructure and operational cost of managing avert layer beneath their careers clusters. And that's another benefit. So we see a lot of uptake in open shift on bare metal on the service match side. This is really about You know how we see applications evolving, right? Uh, customers are moving more towards these distributed architectures, taking, you know, formally monolithic or enter applications and splitting them out into ah, lots of different services. The challenge there becomes. Then how do you manage all those connections? Right, Because something that was a single stack is now comprised of tens or hundreds of services on DSO. You wanna be able to manage traffic to those services, so if the service goes down, you can redirect that those requests thio to an alternative or fail over service. Also tracing. If you're looking at performance issues, you need to know where in your architecture, er you're having those degradations and so forth. And, you know, those are some of the challenges that people can sort of overcome or get help with by using service mash, which is powered by SDO. >>And then I'm sorry, Stephanie ever get to in a minute. But which is 11 follow up on that Joe is so the rial differentiation between what you bring in what I can just if I'm in a mono cloud, for instance is you're gonna you're gonna bring this across clouds. I'm gonna You're gonna bring it on, Prem And we're gonna talk about the edge in in a minute. Is that right? From a differentiation standpoint, >>Yeah, that That's one of the key >>differentiations. You know, Read has been talking about the hybrid cloud for a long time. We've we've been articulating are open hybrid cloud strategy, Andi, >>even if that's >>not a strategy that you may be thinking about, it is ultimately where folks end up right, because all of our enterprise customers still have applications running in the data center. But they're also all starting to move applications out to the public cloud. As they expand their usage of public cloud, you start seeing them adopted multi cloud strategies because they don't want to put all their eggs in one basket. And then for certain classes of applications, they need to move those applications closer to the data. And and so you start to see EJ becoming part of that hybrid cloud picture on DSO. What we do is basically provide a consistency across all those environments, right? We want run great on Amazon, but also great on Azure on Google on bare metal in the data center during medal out at the edge on top of your favorite virtualization platform. And yeah, that that consistency to take a set of applications and run them the same way across all those environments. That is just one of the key benefits of going with red hat as your provider for open hybrid cloud solutions. >>All right, thank you. Stephanie would come back to you here, so I mean, we talk about rail a lot because your business unit that you manage, but we're starting to see red hats edge strategy unfolded. Kind of real is really the linchpin I wanna You could talk about how you're thinking about the edge and and particularly interested in how you're handling scale and why you feel like you're in a good position toe handle that massive scale on the requirements of the edge and versus hey, we need a new OS for the edge. >>Yeah, I think. And Joe did a great job of said and up it does come back to our view around this open hybrid cloud story has always been about consistency. It's about that language that you speak, no matter where you want to run your applications in between rela on on my side and Joe with open shift and and of course, you know we run the same Lennox underneath. So real core os is part of open shift that consistently see leads to a lot of flexibility, whether it's through a broad ecosystem or it's across footprints. And so now is we have been talking with customers about how they want to move their applications closer to data, you know, further out and away from their data center. So some of it is about distributing your data center, getting that compute closer to the data or closer to your customers. It drives, drives some different requirements right around. How you do updates, how you do over the air updates. And so we have been working in typical red hat fashion, right? We've been looking at what's being done in the upstream. So in the fedora upstream community, there is a lot of working that has been done in what's called the I. O. T Special Interest group. They have been really investigating what the requirements are for this use case and edge. So now we're really pleased in, um, in our most recent release of really aid relate 00.3. We have put in some key capabilities that we're seeing being driven by these edge use cases. So things like How do you do quick image generation? And that's important because, as you distribute, want that consistency created tailored image, be able to deploy that in a consistent way, allow that to address scale, meet security requirements that you may have also right updates become very important when you start to spread this out. So we put in things in order to allow remote device mirroring so that you can put code into production and then you can schedule it on those remote devices toe happen with the minimal disruption. Things like things like we all know now, right with all this virtual stuff, we often run into things like not ideal bandwidth and sometimes intermittent connectivity with all of those devices out there. So we put in, um, capabilities around, being able to use something called rpm Austria, Um, in order to be able to deliver efficient over the air updates. And then, of course, you got to do intelligent rollbacks for per chance that something goes wrong. How do you come back to a previous state? So it's all about being able to deploy at scale in a distributed way, be ready for that use case and have some predictability and consistency. And again, that's what we build our platforms for. It's all about predictability and consistency, and that gives you flexibility to add your innovation on top. >>I'm glad you mentioned intelligent rollbacks I learned a long time ago. You always ask the question. What happens when something goes wrong? You learn a lot from the answer to that, but You know, we talk a lot about cloud native. Sounds like you're adapting well to become edge native. >>Yeah. I mean, I mean, we're finding whether it's inthe e verticals, right in the very specific use cases or whether it's in sort of an enterprise edge use case. Having consistency brings a ton of flexibility. It was funny, one of our talking with a customer not too long ago. And they said, you know, agility is the new version of efficiency. So it's that having that sort of language be spoken everywhere from your core data center all the way out to the edge that allows you a lot of flexibility going forward. >>So what if you could talk? I mentioned just mentioned Cloud Native. I mean, I think people sometimes just underestimate the effort. It takes tow, make all this stuff run in all the different clouds the engineering efforts required. And I'm wondering what kind of engineering you do with if any with the cloud providers and and, of course, the balance of the ecosystem. But But maybe you could describe that a little bit. >>Yeah, so? So Red Hat works closely with all the major cloud providers you know, whether that's Amazon, Azure, Google or IBM Cloud. Obviously, Andi, we're you know, we're very keen on sort of making sure that we're providing the best environment to run enterprise applications across all those environments, whether you're running it directly just with Lennox on Ralph or whether you're running it in a containerized environment with Open Chef, which which includes route eso eso, our partnership includes work we do upstream, for example. You know, Red Hat help. Google launched the Cuban community, and I've been, you know, with Google. You know, we've been the top two contributors driving that product that project since inception, um, but then also extends into sort of our hosted services. So we run a jointly developed and jointly managed service called the Azure Red Hat Open Shift Service. Together with Microsoft were our joint customers can get access to open shift in an azure environment as a native azure service, meaning it's, you know, it's fully integrated, just like any other. As your service you can tied into as you're building and so forth. It's sold by by Azure Microsoft's sales reps. Um, but you know, we get the benefit of working together with our Microsoft counterparts and developing that service in managing that service and then in supporting our joint customers. We over the summer announced sort of a similar partnership with Amazon and we'll be launching are already doing pilots on the Amazon Red Hat Open ship service, which is which is, you know, the same concept now applied to the AWS cloud. So that will be coming out g a later this year, right? But again, whether it's working upstream or whether it's, you know, partnering on managed services. I know Stephanie team also do a lot of work with Microsoft, for example, on sequel server on Lenox dot net on Lenox. Whoever thought be running that applications on Linux. But that's, you know, a couple of years old now, a few years old, So eso again. It's been a great partnership, not just with Microsoft, but with all the cloud providers. >>So I think you just shared a little little He showed a little leg there, Joe, what's what's coming g A. Later this year. I want to circle back to >>that. Yeah, eso we way announced a preview earlier this year of of the Amazon Red Hat Open ships service. It's not generally available yet. We're you know, we're taking customers. We want toe, sort of be early access, get access to pilots and then that'll be generally available later this year. Although Red Hat does manage our own service Open ship dedicated that's available on AWS today. But that's a service that's, you know, solely, uh, operated by Red Hat. This new service will be jointly operated by Red Hat and Amazon together Idea. That would be sort of a service that we are delivering together as partners >>as a managed service and and okay, so that's in beta now. I presume if it's gonna be g a little, it's >>like, Yeah, that's yeah, >>that's probably running on bare metal. I would imagine that >>one is running >>on E. C. Two. That's running an A W C C T V exactly, and >>run again. You know, all of our all of >>our I mean, we you know, that open shift does offer bare metal cloud, and we do you know, we do have customers who can take the open shift software and deploy it there right now are managed. Offering is running on top of the C two and on top of Azure VM. But again, this is this is appealing to customers who, you know, like what we bring in terms of an enterprise kubernetes platform, but don't wanna, you know, operated themselves, right? So it's a fully managed service. You just come and build and deploy your APS, and then we manage all of the infrastructure and all the underlying platform for you >>that's going to explode. My prediction. Um, let's take an example of heart example of security. And I'm interested in how you guys ensure a consistent, you know, security experience across all these locations on Prem Cloud. Multiple clouds, the edge. Maybe you could talk about that. And Stephanie, I'm sure you have a perspective on this is Well, from the standpoint of of Ralph. So who wants to start? >>Yeah, Maybe I could start from the bottom and then I'll pass it over to Joe to talk a bit. I think one of these aspects about security it's clearly top of mind of all customers. Um, it does start with the very bottom and base selection in your OS. We continue to drive SC Lennox capabilities into rural to provide that foundational layer. And then as we run real core OS and open shift, we bring over that s C Lennox capability as well. Um, but, you know, there's a whole lot of ways to tackle this we've done. We've done a lot around our policies around, um see ve updates, etcetera around rail to make sure that we are continuing to provide on DCA mitt too. Mitigating all critical and importance, providing better transparency toe how we assess those CVS. So security is certainly top of mind for us. And then as we move forward, right there's also and joke and talk about the security work we do is also capabilities to do that in container ization. But you know, we we work. We work all the way from the base to doing things like these images in these easy to build images, which are tailored so you can make them smaller, less surface area for security. Security is one of those things. That's a lifestyle, right? You gotta look at it from all the way the base in the operating system, with things like sc Lennox toe how you build your images, which now we've added new capabilities. There And then, of course, in containers. There's, um there's a whole focus in the open shift area around container container security, >>Joe. Anything you want to add to that? >>Yeah, sure. I >>mean, I think, you know, obviously, Lennox is the foundation for, you know, for all public clouds. It's it's driving enterprise applications in the data center, part of keeping those applications. Security is keeping them up to date And, you know, through, you know, through real, we provide, you know, securing up to date foundation as a Stephanie mentioned as you move into open shift, you're also been able to take advantage of, uh, Thio to take advantage of essentially mutability. Right? So now the application that you're deploying isn't immutable unit that you build once as a container image, and then you deploy that out all your various environments. When you have to do an update, you don't go and update all those environments. You build a new image that includes those updates, and then you deploy those images out rolling fashion and, as you mentioned that you could go back if there's issues. So the idea, the notion of immutable application deployments has a lot to do with security, and it's enabled by containers. And then, obviously you have cured Panetti's and, you know, and all the rest of our capabilities as part of open Shift managing that for you. We've extended that concept to the entire platform. So Stephanie mentioned, real core West Open shift has always run on real. What we have done in open shift for is we've taken an immutable version of Ralph. So it's the same red hat enterprise Lennox that we've had for years. But now, in this latest version relate, we have a new way to package and deploy it as a relic or OS image, and then that becomes part of the platform. So when customers want toe in addition to keeping their applications up to date, they need to keep their platform up to dates. Need to keep, you know, up with the latest kubernetes patches up with the latest Lennox packages. What we're doing is delivering that as one platform, so when you get updates for open shift, they could include updates for kubernetes. They could include updates for Lennox itself as well as all the integrated services and again, all of this is just you know this is how you keep your applications secure. Is making sure your you know, taking care of that hygiene of, you know, managing your vulnerabilities, keeping everything patched in up to date and ultimately ensuring security for your application and users. >>I know I'm going a little bit over, but I have I have one question that I wanna ask you guys and a broad question about maybe a trends you see in the business. I mean, you look at what we talk a lot about cloud native, and you look at kubernetes and the interest in kubernetes off the charts. It's an area that has a lot of spending momentum. People are putting resource is behind it. But you know, really, to build these sort of modern applications, it's considered state of the art on. Do you see a lot of people trying to really bring that modern approach toe any cloud we've been talking about? EJ. You wanna bring it also on Prem And people generally associate this notion of cloud native with this kind of elite developers, right? But you're bringing it to the masses and there's 20 million plus software developers out there, and most you know, with all due respect that you know they may not be the the the elites of the elite. So how are you seeing this evolve in terms of re Skilling people to be able, handle and take advantage of all this? You know, cool new stuff that's coming out. >>Yeah, I can start, you know, open shift. Our focus from the beginning has been bringing kubernetes to the enterprise. So we think of open shift as the dominant enterprise kubernetes platform enterprises come in all shapes and sizes and and skill sets. As you mentioned, they have unique requirements in terms of how they need toe run stuff in their data center and then also bring that to production, whether it's in the data center across the public clouds eso So part of it is, you know, making sure that the technology meets the requirements and then part of it is working. The people process and and culture thio make them help them understand what it means to sort of take advantage of container ization and cloud native platforms and communities. Of course, this is nothing new to red hat, right? This is what we did 20 years ago when we first brought Lennox to the Enterprise with well, right on. In essence, Carozza is basically distributed. Lennox right Kubernetes builds on Lennox and brings it out to your cluster to your distributed systems on across the hybrid cloud. So So nothing new for Red Hat. But a lot of the same challenges apply to this new cloud native world. >>Awesome. Stephanie, we'll give you the last word, >>all right? And I think just a touch on what Joe talked about it. And Joe and I worked really closely on this, right? The ability to run containers right is someone launches down this because it is magical. What could be done with deploying applications? Using a container technology, we built the capabilities and the tools directly into rural in order to be able to build and deploy, leveraging things like pod man directly into rural. And that's exactly so, folks. Everyone who has a real subscription today can start on their container journey, start to build and deploy that, and then we work to help those skills then be transferrable as you movinto open shift in kubernetes and orchestration. So, you know, we work very closely to make sure that the skills building can be done directly on rail and then transfer into open shift. Because, as Joe said, at the end of the day, it's just a different way to deploy. Lennox, >>You guys are doing some good work. Keep it up. And thanks so much for coming back in. The Cube is great to talk to you today. >>Good to see you, Dave. >>Yes, Thank you. >>All right. Thank you for watching everybody. The cubes coverage of Cuba con en a continues right after this.

>>thank you everyone for joining. I'm here today to talk about English controllers. AP Gateways and service mention communities three very hot topics that are also frequently confusing. So I'm Richard Lee, founder CEO of Ambassador Labs, formerly known as Data Wire. We sponsor a number of popular open source projects that are part of the Cloud Native Computing Foundation, including telepresence and Ambassador, which is a kubernetes native AP gateway. And most of what I'm going to talk about today is related to our work around ambassador. Uh huh. So I want to start by talking about application architecture, er and workflow on kubernetes and how applications that are being built on kubernetes really differ from how they used to be built. So when you're building applications on kubernetes, the traditional architectures is the very famous monolith, and the monolith is a central piece of software. It's one giant thing that you build, deployed run, and the value of a monolith is it's really simple. And if you think about the monolithic development process, more importantly, is the architecture er is really reflecting that workflow. So with the monolith, you have a very centralized development process. You tend not to release too frequently because you have all these different development teams that are working on different features, and then you decide in advance when you're going to release that particular pieces offering. Everyone works towards that release train, and you have specialized teams. You have a development team which has all your developers. You have a Q A team. You have a release team, you have an operations team, so that's your typical development organization and workflow with a monolithic application. As organization shift to micro >>services, they adopt a very different development paradigm. It's a decentralized development paradigm where you have lots of different independent teams that are simultaneously working on different parts of the application, and those application components are really shipped as independent services. And so you really have a continuous release cycle because instead of synchronizing all your teams around one particular vehicle, you have so many different release vehicles that each team is able to ship a soon as they're ready. And so we call this full cycle development because that team is >>really responsible, not just for the coding of that micro service, but also the testing and the release and operations of that service. Um, >>so this is a huge change, particularly with workflow. And there's a lot of implications for this, s o. I have a diagram here that just try to visualize a little bit more the difference in organization >>with the monolith. You have everyone who works on this monolith with micro services. You have the yellow folks work on the Yellow Micro Service, and the purple folks work on the Purple Micro Service and maybe just one person work on the Orange Micro Service and so forth. >>So there's a lot more diversity around your teams and your micro services, and it lets you really adjust the granularity of your development to your specific business need. So how do users actually access your micro services? Well, with the monolith, it's pretty straightforward. You have one big thing. So you just tell the Internet while I have this one big thing on the Internet, make sure you send all your travel to the big thing. But when you have micro services and you have a bunch of different micro services, how do users actually access these micro services? So the solution is an AP gateway, so the gateway consolidates all access to your micro services, so requests come from the Internet. They go to your AP gateway. The AP Gateway looks at these requests, and based on the nature of these requests, it routes them to the appropriate micro service. And because the AP gateway is centralizing thing access to all the micro services, it also really helps you simplify authentication, observe ability, routing all these different crosscutting concerns. Because instead of implementing authentication in each >>of your micro services, which would be a maintenance nightmare and a security nightmare, you put all your authentication in your AP gateway. So if you look at this world of micro services, AP gateways are really important part of your infrastructure, which are really necessary and pre micro services. Pre kubernetes Unhappy Gateway Well valuable was much more optional. So that's one of the really big things around. Recognizing with the micro services architecture er, you >>really need to start thinking much more about maybe a gateway. The other consideration within a P A gateway is around your management workflow because, as I mentioned, each team is actually response for their own micro service, which also means each team needs to be able to independently manage the gateway. So Team A working on that micro service needs to be able to tell the AP at Gateway. This this is >>how I want you to write. Request to my micro service, and the Purple team needs to be able to say something different for how purple requests get right into the Purple Micro Service. So that's also really important consideration as you think about AP gateways and how it fits in your architecture. Because it's not just about your architecture. It's also about your workflow. So let me talk about a PR gateways on kubernetes. I'm going to start by talking about ingress. So ingress is the process of getting traffic from the Internet to services inside the cluster kubernetes. From an architectural perspective, it actually has a requirement that all the different pods in a kubernetes cluster needs to communicate with each other. And as a consequence, what Kubernetes does is it creates its own private network space for all these pods, and each pod gets its own I p address. So this makes things very, very simple for inter pod communication. Cooper in any is, on the other hand, does not say very much around how traffic should actually get into the cluster. So there's a lot of detail around how traffic actually, once it's in the cluster, how you routed around the cluster and it's very opinionated about how this works but getting traffic into the cluster. There's a lot of different options on there's multiple strategies pot i p. There's ingress. There's low bounce of resource is there's no port. >>I'm not gonna go into exhaustive detail on all these different options on. I'm going to just talk about the most common approach that most organizations take today. So the most common strategy for routing is coupling an external load balancer with an ingress controller. And so an external load balancer can be >>ah, Harvard load balancer. It could be a virtual machine. It could be a cloud load balancer. But the key requirement for an external load balancer >>is to be able to attack to stable I people he address so that you can actually map a domain name and DNS to that particular external load balancer and that external load balancer, usually but not always well, then route traffic and pass that traffic straight through to your ingress controller, and then your English controller takes that traffic and then routes it internally inside >>kubernetes to the various pods that are running your micro services. There are >>other approaches, but this is the most common approach. And the reason for this is that the alternative approaches really required each of your micro services to be exposed outside of the cluster, which causes a lot of challenges around management and deployment and maintenance that you generally want to avoid. So I've been talking about in English controller. What exactly is an English controller? So in English controller is an application that can process rules according to the kubernetes English specifications. Strangely, Kubernetes is not actually ship with a built in English controller. Um, I say strangely because you think, well, getting traffic into a cluster is probably a pretty common requirement. And it is. It turns out that this is complex enough that there's no one size fits all English controller. And so there is a set of ingress >>rules that are part of the kubernetes English specifications at specified how traffic gets route into the cluster >>and then you need a proxy that can actually route this traffic to these different pods. And so an increase controller really translates between the kubernetes configuration and the >>proxy configuration and common proxies for ingress. Controllers include H a proxy envoy Proxy or Engine X. So >>let me talk a little bit more about these common proxies. So all these proxies and there >>are many other proxies I'm just highlighting what I consider to be probably the most three most well established proxies. Uh, h a proxy, uh, Engine X and envoy proxies. So H a proxy is managed by a plastic technology start in 2000 and one, um, the H a proxy organization actually creates an ingress controller. And before they kept created ingress controller, there was an open source project called Voyager, which built in ingress Controller on >>H a proxy engine X managed by engine. Xing, subsequently acquired by F five Also open source started a little bit later. The proxy in 2004. And there's the engine Xing breast, which is a community project. Um, that's the most popular a zwelling the engine Next Inc Kubernetes English project which is maintained by the company. This is a common source of confusion because sometimes people will think that they're using the ingress engine X ingress controller, and it's not clear if they're using this commercially supported version or the open source version, and they actually, although they have very similar names, uh, they actually have different functionality. Finally. Envoy Proxy, the newest entrant to the proxy market originally developed by engineers that lift the ride sharing company. They subsequently donated it to the cloud. Native Computing Foundation Envoy has become probably the most popular cloud native proxy. It's used by Ambassador uh, the A P a. Gateway. It's using the SDO service mash. It's using VM Ware Contour. It's been used by Amazon and at mesh. It's probably the most common proxy in the cloud native world. So, as I mentioned, there's a lot of different options for ingress. Controller is the most common. Is the engine X ingress controller, not the one maintained by Engine X Inc but the one that's part of the Cooper Nannies project? Um, ambassador is the most popular envoy based option. Another common option is the SDO Gateway, which is directly integrated with the SDO mesh, and that's >>actually part of Dr Enterprise. So with all these choices around English controller. How do you actually decide? Well, the reality is the ingress specifications very limited. >>And the reason for this is that getting traffic into the cluster there's a lot of nuance into how you want to do that. And it turns out it's very challenging to create a generic one size fits all specifications because of the vast diversity of implementations and choices that are available to end users. And so you don't see English specifying anything around resilience. So if >>you want to specify a time out or rate limiting, it's not possible in dresses really limited to support for http. So if you're using GSPC or Web sockets, you can't use the ingress specifications, um, different ways of routing >>authentication. The list goes on and on. And so what happens is that different English controllers extend the core ingress specifications to support these use cases in different ways. Yeah, so engine X ingress they actually use a combination of config maps and the English Resource is plus custom annotations that extend the ingress to really let you configure a lot of additional extensions. Um, that is exposing the engineers ingress with Ambassador. We actually use custom resource definitions different CRTs that extend kubernetes itself to configure ambassador. And one of the benefits of the CRD approach is that we can create a standard schema that's actually validated by kubernetes. So when you do a coup control apply of an ambassador CRD coop Control can immediately validate and tell >>you if you're actually applying a valid schema in format for your ambassador configuration on As I previously mentioned, ambassadors built on envoy proxy, >>it's the Gateway also uses C R D s they can to use a necks tension of the service match CRD s as opposed to dedicated Gateway C R D s on again sdo Gateway is built on envoy privacy. So I've been talking a lot about English controllers. But the title of my talk was really about AP gateways and English controllers and service smashed. So what's the difference between an English controller and an AP gateway? So to recap, an immigrant controller processes kubernetes English routing rules and a P I. G. Wave is a central point for managing all your traffic to community services. It typically has additional functionality such as authentication, observe, ability, a >>developer portal and so forth. So what you find Is that not all Ap gateways or English controllers? Because some MP gateways don't support kubernetes at all. S o eso you can't make the can't be ingress controllers and not all ingrates. Controllers support the functionality such as authentication, observe, ability, developer portal >>that you would typically associate with an AP gateway. So, generally speaking, um, AP gateways that run on kubernetes should be considered a super set oven ingress controller. But if the A p a gateway doesn't run on kubernetes, then it's an AP gateway and not an increase controller. Yeah, so what's the difference between a service Machin and AP Gateway? So an AP gateway is really >>focused on traffic into and out of a cluster, so the political term for this is North South traffic. A service mesh is focused on traffic between services in a cluster East West traffic. All service meshes need >>an AP gateway, so it's Theo includes a basic ingress or a P a gateway called the SDO gateway, because a service mention needs traffic from the Internet to be routed into the mesh >>before it can actually do anything Omelet. Proxy, as I mentioned, is the most common proxy for both mesh and gateways. Dr. Enterprise provides an envoy based solution out of the box. >>Uh, SDO Gateway. The reason Dr does this is because, as I mentioned, kubernetes doesn't come package with an ingress. Uh, it makes sense for Dr Enterprise to provide something that's easy to get going. No extra steps required because with Dr Enterprise, you can deploy it and get going. Get exposed on the Internet without any additional software. Dr. Enterprise can also be easily upgraded to ambassador because they're both built on envoy and interest. Consistent routing. Semantics. It also with Ambassador. You get >>greater security for for single sign on. There's a lot of security by default that's configured directly into Ambassador Better control over TLS. Things like that. Um And then finally, there's commercial support that's actually available for Ambassador. SDO is an open source project that has a has a very broad community but no commercial support options. So to recap, ingress controllers and AP gateways are critical pieces of your cloud native stack. So make sure that you choose something that works well for you. >>And I think a lot of times organizations don't think critically enough about the AP gateway until they're much further down the Cuban and a journey. Considerations around how to choose that a p a gateway include functionality such as How does it do with traffic management and >>observe ability? Doesn't support the protocols that you need also nonfunctional requirements such as Does it integrate with your workflow? Do you offer commercial support? Can you get commercial support for this on a P? A. Gateway is focused on north south traffic, so traffic into and out of your kubernetes cluster. A service match is focused on East West traffic, so traffic between different services inside the same cluster. Dr. Enterprise includes SDO Gateway out of the box easy to use but can also be extended with ambassador for enhanced functionality and security. So thank you for your time. Hope this was helpful in understanding the difference between a P gateways, English controllers and service meshes and how you should be thinking about that on your kubernetes deployment

>>from around the globe. It's the Cube with coverage of Coop Con and Cloud, Native Con Europe 2020 Virtual brought to You by Red Hat, The Cloud Native Computing Foundation and its ecosystem Partners. Hi, I'm stupid, man. And this is the Cube's coverage of Cube con Cloud Native Con Europe event, which, of course, this year has gone virtual, really lets us be able to talk to those guests where they are around the globe. Really happy to welcome back to the program. Liz Rice. First of all, she is the vice president of Open Source Engineering at Aqua Security. She's also the chair of the Technical Oversight Committee has part of Ah CN cf. Liz, it is great to see you. Unfortunately, it's remote, but ah, great to catch up with you. Thanks for joining. >>Yeah, Thanks for having me. Nice to see you if you know across the ocean. >>So, uh, you know, one of the one of the big things? Of course, for the Cube Con show. It's the rallying point for the community. There are so many people participating. One of the things we always love to highlight its not only the the vendor ecosystem. But there is a very robust, engaged community of end users that participate in it. And as I mentioned, you're the chair of that technology oversight committee. So maybe just give our audience a little bit of, you know, in case they're not familiar with the TOC does. And let's talk about the latest pieces there. >>Yes, say the TOC is really hit. C can qualify the different projects that want to join the CNC F. So we're assessing whether or not they're cloud native. We're assessing whether they could joined at sandbox or incubation or graduation levels. Which of the different maturity levels that we have for for project within the CN CF yeah, we're really there, Teoh also provide it steering around the What does cloud native mean and what does it mean to be a project inside the CN CF community? We're also a voice for all of the projects. We're not the only voice, but, you know, part >>of our role >>really is to make sure the projects are getting what they need in order to be successful. So it's it's really around the technology and the projects that we call cloud native >>Yeah, and and obliges Cloud Native because when people first heard of the show, of course, Kubernetes and Cube Con was the big discussion point. But as you said, Cloud native, there's a lot of projects there. I just glanced at the sandbox page and I think there's over 30 in the sandbox category on and you know they move along their process until they're, you know, fully mature and reach that, you know, 1.0 state, which is the stamp of approval that, you know, this could be used in production. I understand there's been some updates for the sandbox process, so help us understand you know where that is and what's the new piece of that? >>Yeah. So it's really been because of the growth off cloud native in general, the popularity off the CN CF and so much innovation happening in our space. So there's been so many projects who want Teoh become hard off the CNC f family on and we used to have a sponsorship model where members of the TOC would essentially back projects that they wanted to see joining at the sandbox level. But we ran into a number of issues with that process on and also dealing with the scale, the number of applications that have come in. So we've revamped the process. We made it much easier for projects to apply as much simpler form where really not making so much judgment we're really saying is it's a cloud native project and we have some requirements in terms off some governance features that we need from a project. And it's worth mentioning that when a project joins the CN CF, they are donating the intellectual property and the trademark off that project into the foundation. So it's not something that people should take lightly. But we have tried to make it easier and therefore much smoother. We're able Teoh assess the applications much more quickly, which I think everyone, the community, the projects, those of us on the TOC We're all pretty happy that we can make that a much faster process. >>Yeah, I actually, it brings up An interesting point is so you know, I've got a little bit of background in standards committees. A swell as I've been involved in open source for a couple of decades now some people don't understand. You know, when you talk about bringing a project under a foundation. You talked about things like trademarks and the like. There are more than one foundation out there for CN CF Falls under the Linux Foundation. Google, of course, brought Kubernetes in fully to be supported. There's been some rumblings I've heard for the last couple of years about SDO and K Native and I know about a month before the show there was some changes along SDO and what Google was doing there may be without trying to pass too many judgments in getting into some of the political arguments, help us understand. You know what Google did and you know where that kind of comparison the projects that sit in the CN cf themselves. >>Yeah, So I e I guess two years ago around two years ago, Stu was very much the new kid in the cloud native block. So much excitement about the project. And it was actually when I was a program co chair that we had a lot of talks about sdo at Cube Con cloud native bomb, particularly in Copenhagen, I'm recalling. And, uh, I think everyone I just saw a natural fit between that project on the CN, CF and There was an assumption from a lot of people across the community that it would eventually become part of the CNC f. That was it's natural home. And one of the things that we saw in recent weeks was a very clear statement from IBM, who were one off the Uh huh, yeah, big contributing companies towards that project that that was also their expectation. They were very much under the impression that Stu would be donated to the CN CF at an appropriate point of maturity, and unfortunately, that didn't happen. From my point of view, I think that has sown a lot of confusion amongst the community because we've seen so much. It's very much a project of fits. Service mesh designed to work with kubernetes is it really does. You're fit naturally in with the other CN CF projects. So it's created confusion for end users who, many of whom assume that it was called the CN CF, and that it has the neutral governance that the other projects. It's part of the requirements that we have on those projects. They have to have an open governance that they're not controlled by a single vendor, Uh, and we've seen that you know that confusion, Andi. Frustration around that confusion being expressed by more and more end users as well as other people across the community. And yeah, the door is still open, you know, we would still love to see SDO join the community. Clearly there are different opinions within the SD wan maintainers. I will have to see what happens. >>Yeah, lets you bring up some really good points. You know, absolutely some of some of that confusion out there. Absolutely. I've heard from customers that if they're making a decision point, they might say, Hey, maybe I'm not going to go down that maybe choose something else because I'm concerned about that. Um, you know, I sdo front and center k native, another project currently under Google that has, you know, a number of other big vendors in the community that aiding in that So hopefully we will see some progress on that, you know, going forward. But, you know, back to you talked about, You know, the TOC doesn't make judgements as to you know which project and how they are. One of the really nice things out there in the CN CF, it's like the landscape just for you to help, understand? Okay, here's all of these projects. Here's the different categories they fit in. Here is where they are along that maturity. There's another tool that I read. Cheryl Hung blogged about the technology radar. I believe for continuous delivery is the first technology radar. Help us understand how that is, you know, not telling customers what to do but giving them a little guidance that you know where some of these projects projects fit. In a certain segment, >>Yeah, the technology radar is a really great initiative. I'm really excited about it because we have increasing numbers or end users who are using these different projects it both inside the CN CF and projects that are outside of the CNC F family. Your end users are building stacks. They're solving real problems in the real world and with the technology radar. What Cheryl's been able to facilitate is having the end you to the end user community share with us. What tools? They're actually using what they actually believe are the right hammers for specific nails. And, you know, it's it's one thing for us as it's more on the developer or vendor side Teoh look at different projects and say what we think are the better solutions for solving different problems. Actually hearing from the horse's mouth from the end users who are doing it in the real world is super valuable. And I think that is a really useful input to help us understand. What are the problems that the end user is still a challenge by what are the gaps that we still need to fail more input we can get from the end user community, the more will be solving real problems and no necessarily academic problems that we haven't sorry discovered in >>the real world. Alright, well is, you know, teeing up a discussion about challenges that users still have in the world. If we go to your primary jobs, Main hat is you live in the security world and you know, we know security is still something, you know, front and center. It is something that has never done lots of discussion about the shared responsibility model and how cloud native in security fit together and all that. So maybe I know there's some new projects there, but love to just give me a snap shot as where we are in the security space. As I said, Overall, it's been, you know, super important topic for years. This year, with a global pandemic going on, security seems to be raised even more. We've seen a couple of acquisitions in the space, of course. Aqua Security helping customers along their security journey. So what do you seeing out there in the marketplace today and hear from your custom? >>Yeah, I Every business this year has, you know, look at what's going on and you know, it's been crazy time for everyone, but we've been pleasantly surprised at how, you know, in relative terms, our business has been able to. It's been strong, you know. And I think you know what you're touching on the fact that people are working remotely. People are doing so many things online. Security is evermore online. Cloud security's evermore part off what people need to pay attention to. We're doing more and more business online. So, actually, for those of us in the security business, it has bean, you know that there have been some silver linings to this this pandemic cloud? Um, yes. So many times in technology. The open source projects and in particularly defaults in kubernetes. Things are improving its long Bina thing that I've you know, I wished for and talked about that. You know, some of the default settings has always been the most secure they could be. We've seen a lot of improvements over the last 23 years we're seeing continuing to see innovation in the open source world as well as you know, on the commercial side and products that vendors like Akwa, you know, we continue to innovate, continue to write you ways for customers to validate that the application workloads that they're going to run are going to run securely in the cloud. >>Alright and lives. There's a new project that I know. Ah, you know, you Aqua are participating in Tell us a little bit about Starbird. You know what's what's the problem? It's helping solve and you know where that budget >>Yes, So stockholders, one of our open source initiatives coming out of my team are equal on, and the idea is to take security reporting information and turn it into a kubernetes native, uh, resources custom resources. And then that means the security information, your current security status could be queried over the kubernetes AP I, as you're querying the status or the deployment, say you can also be clearing to see whether it's passing configuration audits or it's passing vulnerability scans for the application containers inside that deployment. So that information is available through the same AP eyes through the queue control interface through dashboards like Octane, which is a nice dashboard viewer for kubernetes. And starboard brings security information not just from acquittals but from other vendor tools as well front and center into that kubernetes experience. So I'm really excited about Star Border. It's gonna be a great way of getting security visibility, Teoh more kubernetes use it >>all right. And we were talking earlier about just the maturity of projects and how they get into the sandbox. Is is this still pretty sandbox for >>this? OK, we're still very much in the early phases and you know it. I think in the open source world, we have the ability to share what we're doing early so that we can get feedback. We can see how it resonates with with real users. We've had some great feedback from partners that we've worked with and some actual customers who actually collaborated with When we're going through the initial design, some great feedback. There's still lots of work to do. But, yeah, the initial feedback has been really positive. >>Yeah, is usually the event is one of those places where you can help try toe, recruit some other people that might have tools as well as educate customers about what's going on. So is that part of the call to action on this is, you know, what are you looking for for kind of the rest of 2020 when it when it comes to this project? >>Yeah, absolutely. So internally, we're working on an operator which will automate some of the work that's double does in the background in terms off getting more collaboration. We would love to see integrations from or security tooling. We're talking with some people across the community about the resource definition, so we've come up with some custom resource definitions, but we'd love them to be applicable it to a variety of different tools. So we want to get feedback on on those definitions of people are interested in collaborating on that absolutely do come and talk to me and my team are reluctant. >>Great. Listen, and I'll give you the final word. Obviously, we're getting the community together while we're part So you know any other you know, engagement opportunities, you get togethers. Things that you want people to know about the European show this year. >>Well, it's gonna be really you know, I'm on tenterhooks to see whether or not we can recreate the same atmosphere as we would have in Q con. I mean, it won't be exactly the same, but I really hope that people will engage online. Do come and, you know, ask questions of the speakers. Come and talk to the vendors, get into slack channels with the community. You know, this is an opportunity to pretend we're in the same room. Let's let's let's do what we can Teoh recreate as close as we can. That community experience that you keep corn is famous for >>Yeah, absolutely. That whole way track is something that is super challenging to recreate. And there's no way that I am getting the Indonesian food that I was so looking forward to in Amsterdam just such a great culinary and cultural city. So hopefully sometime in the future will be able to be back there. Liz Rice. Always pleasure catching up with you. Thanks so much for all the work you're doing on the TOC. And always a pleasure talking to you. >>Thanks for having me. >>All right, Lots more coverage from Cube Con Cloud, Native con the European 2020 show, Of course. Virtual I'm stew minimum. And thank you for watching the Cube. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

>>Live from San Diego, California It's the Q covering Koopa and Cloud Native Cot brought to you by Red Cloud, Native Computing Pounding and its ecosystem March. >>Welcome back to the Cube here at Q. Khan Club native Khan, 2019 in San Diego, California Instrumental in my co host is Jon Cryer and first of all, happy to welcome back to the program. Diane Mueller, who is the technical of the tech lead of cloud native technology. I'm sorry. I'm getting the wrong That's director of community development Red Hat, because renew. Goodbye is the technical lead of cognitive technologies at in video game to the end of day one. I've got three days. I gotta make sure >>you get a little more Red Bull in the conversation. >>All right, well, there's definitely a lot of energy. Most people we don't even need Red Bull here because we're a day one. But Diane, we're going to start a day zero. So, you know, you know, you've got a good group of community of geeks when they're like Oh, yeah, let me fly in a day early and do like 1/2 day or full day of deep dives. There So the Red Hat team decided to bring everybody on a boat, I guess. >>Yeah. So, um, open ships Commons gathering for this coup con we hosted at on the inspiration Hornblower. We had about 560 people on a boat. I promised them that it wouldn't leave the dock, but we deal still have a little bit of that weight going on every time one of the big military boats came by. And so people were like a little, you know, by the end of the day, but from 8 a.m. in the morning till 8 p.m. In the evening, we just gathered had some amazing deep dives. There was unbelievable conversations onstage offstage on we had, ah, wonderful conversation with some of the new Dev ops folks that have just come on board. That's a metaphor for navigation and Coop gone. And and for events, you know, Andrew Cliche for John Willis, the inevitable Crispin Ella, who runs Open Innovation Labs, and J Bloom have all just formed the global Transformation Office. I love that title on dhe. They're gonna be helping Thio preach the gospel of Cultural Dev ops and agile transformation from a red hat office From now going on, there was a wonderful conversation. I felt privileged to actually get to moderate it and then just amazing people coming forward and sharing their stories. It was a great session. Steve Dake, who's with IBM doing all the SDO stuff? Did you know I've never seen SDO done so well, Deployment explains so well and all of the contents gonna be recorded and up on Aaron. We streamed it live on Facebook. But I'm still, like reeling from the amount of information overload. And I think that's the nice thing about doing a day zero event is that it's a smaller group of people. So we had 600 people register, but I think was 560 something. People show up and we got that facial recognition so that now when they're traveling through the hallways here with 12,000 other people, that go Oh, you were in the room. I met you there. And that's really the whole purpose for comments. Events? >>Yeah, I tell you, this is definitely one of those shows that it doesn't take long where I say, Hey, my brain is full. Can I go home. Now. You know I love your first impressions of Q Khan. Did you get to go to the day zero event And, uh, what sort of things have you been seeing? So >>I've been mostly I went to the lightning talks, which were amazing. Anything? Definitely. There. A number of shout outs to the GPU one, of course. Uh, friend in video. But I definitely enjoyed, for example, of the amazing D. M s one, the one about operators. And generally all of them were very high quality. >>Is this your first Q? Khan, >>I've been there. I've been a year. This is my third con. I've been accused in Europe in the past. Send you an >>old hat old hand at this. Well, before we get into the operator framework and I wanna love to dig into this, I just wanted to ask one more thought. Thought about open shift, Commons, The Commons in general, the relationship between open shift, the the offering. And then Okay, the comments and okay, D and then maybe the announcement about about Okay. Dee da da i o >>s. Oh, a couple of things happened yesterday. Yesterday we dropped. Okay, D for the Alfa release. So anyone who wants to test that out and try it out it's an all operators based a deployment of open shift, which is what open ship for is. It's all a slightly new architectural deployment methodology based on the operator framework, and we've been working very diligently. Thio populate operator hub dot io, which is where all of the upstream projects that have operators like the one that Reynolds has created for in the videos GP use are being hosted so that anyone could deploy them, whether on open shift or any kubernetes so that that dropped. And yesterday we dropped um, and announced Open Sourcing Quay as project quay dot io. So there's a lot of Io is going on here, but project dia dot io is, um, it's a fulfillment, really, of a commitment by Red Hat that whenever we do an acquisition and the poor folks have been their acquired by Cora West's and Cora Weston acquired by Red Hat in an IBM there. And so in the interim, they've been diligently working away to make the code available as open source. And that hit last week and, um, to some really interesting and users that are coming up and now looking forward to having them to contribute to that project as well. But I think the operator framework really has been a big thing that we've been really hearing, getting a lot of uptake on. It's been the new pattern for deploying applications or service is on getting things beyond just a basic install of a service on open shift or any kubernetes. And that's really where one of the exciting things yesterday on we were talking, you know, and I were talking about this earlier was that Exxon Mobil sent a data scientist to the open ship Commons, Audrey Resnick, who gave this amazing presentation about Jupiter Hub, deeper notebooks, deploying them and how like open shift and the advent of operators for things like GP use is really helping them enable data scientists to do their work. Because a lot of the stuff that data signs it's do is almost disposable. They'll run an experiment. Maybe they don't get the result they want, and then it just goes away, which is perfect for a kubernetes workload. But there are other things you need, like a Jeep use and work that video has been doing to enable that on open shift has been just really very helpful. And it was It was a great talk, but we were talking about it from the first day. Signs don't want to know anything about what's under the hood. They just want to run their experiments. So, >>you know, let's like to understand how you got involved in the creation of the operator. >>So generally, if we take a step back and look a bit at what we're trying to do is with a I am l and generally like EJ infrastructure and five G. We're seeing a lot of people. They're trying to build and run applications. Whether it's in data Center at the and we're trying to do here with this operator is to bring GPS to enterprise communities. And this is what we're working with. Red Hat. And this is where, for example, things like the op Agrestic A helps us a lot. So what we've built is this video Gee, few operator that space on the upper air sdk where it wants us to multiple phases to in the first space, for example, install all the components that a data scientist were generally a GPU cluster of might want to need. Whether it's the NVIDIA driver, the container runtime, the community's device again feast do is as you go on and build an infrastructure. You want to be able to have the automation that is here and, more importantly, the update part. So being able to update your different components, face three is generally being able to have a life cycle. So as you manage multiple machines, these are going to get into different states. Some of them are gonna fail, being able to get from these bad states to good states. How do you recover from them? It's super helpful. And then last one is monitoring, which is being able to actually given sites dr users. So the upper here is decay has helped us a lot here, just laying out these different state slips. And in a way, it's done the same thing as what we're trying to do for our customers. The different data scientists, which is basically get out of our way and allow us to focus on core business value. So the operator, who basically takes care of things that are pretty cool as an engineer I lost due to your election. But it doesn't really help me to focus on like my core business value. How do I do with the updates, >>you know? Can I step back one second, maybe go up a level? The problem here is that each physical machine has only ah limited number of NVIDIA. GPU is there and you've got a bunch of containers that maybe spawning on different machines. And so they have to figure out, Do I have a GPU? Can I grab one? And if I'm using it, I assume I have to reserve it and other people can't use and then I have to give it up. Is that is that the problem we're solving here? So this is >>a problem that we've worked with communities community so that like the whole resource management, it's something that is integrated almost first class, citizen in communities, being able to advertise the number of deep, use their your cluster and used and then being able to actually run or schedule these containers. The interesting components that were also recently added are, for example, the monitoring being able to see that a specific Jupiter notebook is using this much of GP utilization. So these air supercool like features that have been coming in the past two years in communities and which red hat has been super helpful, at least in these discussions pushing these different features forward so that we see better enterprise support. Yeah, >>I think the thing with with operators and the operator lifecycle management part of it is really trying to get to Day two. So lots of different methodologies, whether it's danceable or python or job or or UH, that's helm or anything else that can get you an insult of a service or an application or something. And in Stan, she ate it. But and the operator and we support all of that with SD case to help people. But what we're trying to do is bridge the to this day to stuff So Thea, you know, to get people to auto pilot, you know, and there's a whole capacity maturity model that if you go to operator hab dot io, you can see different operators are a different stages of the game. So it's been it's been interesting to work with people to see Theo ah ha moment when they realize Oh, I could do this and then I can walk away. And then if that pod that cluster dies, it'll just you know, I love the word automatically, but they, you know, it's really the goal is to help alleviate the hands on part of Day two and get more automation into the service's and applications we deploy >>right and when they when they this is created. Of course it works well with open shift, but it also works for any kubernetes >>correct operator. HAB Daddio. Everything in there runs on any kubernetes, and that's really the goal is to be ableto take stuff in a hybrid cloud model. You want to be able to run it anywhere you want, so we want people to be unable to do it anywhere. >>So if this really should be an enabler for everything that it's Vinny has been doing to be fully cloud native, Yes, >>I think completely arable here is this is a new attack. Of course, this is a bit there's a lot of complexity, and this is where we're working towards is reducing the complexity and making true that people there. Dan did that a scientist air machine learning engineers are able to focus on their core business. >>You watch all of the different service is in the different things that the data scientists are using. They don't I really want to know what's under under the hood. They would like to just open up a Jupiter Hub notebook, have everything there. They need, train their models, have them run. And then after they're done, they're done and it goes away. And hopefully they remember to turn off the Jeep, use in the woods or wherever it is, and they don't keep getting billed for it. But that's the real beauty of it is that they don't have to worry so much anymore about that. And we've got a whole nice life cycle with source to image or us to I. And they could just quickly build on deploy its been, you know, it's near and dear to my heart, the machine learning the eyesight of stuff. It is one of the more interesting, you know, it's the catchy thing, but the work was, but people are really doing it today, and it's been we had 23 weeks ago in San Francisco, we had a whole open ship comments gathering just on a I and ML and you know, it was amazing to hear. I think that's the most redeeming thing or most rewarding thing rather for people who are working on Kubernetes is to have the folks who are doing workloads come and say, Wow, you know, this is what we're doing because we don't get to see that all the time. And it was pretty amazing. And it's been, you know, makes it all worthwhile. So >>Diane Renaud, thank you so much for the update. Congratulations on the launch of the operators and look forward to hearing more in the future. >>All right >>to >>be here >>for John Troy runs to minimum. More coverage here from Q. Khan Club native Khan, 2019. Thanks for watching. Thank you.

>> live from San Francisco, celebrating 10 years of high tech coverage. It's the Cube covering Veum, World 2019 brought to you by the M Wear and its ecosystem partners. >> Hey, welcome back, everyone. Live Cube coverage of the emerald 2019 were here in San Francisco, California Mosconi North Lobby. Two sets Our 10th year covering the emerald in our 20th year of Of of our seasons of covering Me to be enterprised Tech. I'm Jeffrey Day Volonte student Justin Warren breaking down day to Cube insights segment. Dave's Do You Do You're on Set Valley set this the meadow set because it's got the steamboat chirping birds behind us. Justin, you've been doing some interviews out on the floor as well. Checking the story's out. All the news is out. Day one was all the big corporate stuff. Today was the product technology news stew. I'll go to you first. What's the assessment on your take on the M, where obviously they're reinventing themselves? Jerry Chen, who we interviewed, said this is Act three of'em where they keep on adding more and more prostitute their core, your thoughts on what's going on. >> So the biggest whore I've seen is the discussion of Tom Zoo, which really talking those cloud native applications. And if you break down VM wear, it's like many companies that said, There's the, you know, core product of the company. It is vey sphere. It is the legacy for what we have and it's not going anywhere, and it's changing. But, you know, then there's the modernization project Pacific howto a bridge to the multi cloud world. How do I bridge Kubernetes is going to come into the sphere and do that? But then there's the application world into the thing I've been. You know, the existential threat to VM, where I've been talking about forever is if we sas if I and cloud If I and all the APS go away, the data centers disappear in Vienna, where dominant, the data center is left out in the cold. So, you know, Pivotal was driving down that that path. They've done a lot of acquisitions, so love directionally where towns who's going time will tell whether they can play in that market. This is not a developer conference. We go to plenty of developer events, so, you know, that's you know, some of the places. I see you know, and and still, you know, >> narrator conference. You're right. Exactly Right. And just I want to get your thoughts, too, because you've been blocking heavily on this topic as well. Dev Ops in general, commenting on the Cube. You know, the reality and the reality, Uh, and the reality of situation from the the announcement. That's a vapor. They're doing some demos. They're really product directions. So product directions is always with VM. Where does it? It's not something that their shameful love, that's what they do. That's what they put out. It's not bakery >> company. It's a statement, A statement of >> direction. We were talking hybrid cloud in 2012 when I asked Pet guess it was a halfway house. He blew a gasket. And now, five years later, the gestation period for hybrid was that. But the end was happy to have the data center back in the back. In the play here, your thoughts on >> Yeah. So this conference is is, I think, a refreshing return to form. So, Vienna, where is as you say, this is an operators conference in Vienna. Where is for operators? It's not Four Dev's. There was a period there where cloud was scary And it was all this cloud native stuff in Vienna where tried to appeal to this new market, I guess tried to dress up and as something that it really wasn't and it didn't pull it off and we didn't It didn't feel right. And now Veum Way has decided that Well, no, actually, this is what they and where is about. And no one could be more Veum where than VM wear. So it's returning to being its best self. And I think you >> can software. They know software >> they know. So flick. So the addition of putting predict Enzo in and having communities in there, and it's to operate the software. So it's it's going to be in there an actual run on it, and they wanna have kubernetes baked into the sphere. So that now, yeah, we'll have new a new absent. Yeah, there might be SAS eps for the people who are consuming them, but they're gonna run somewhere. And now we could run them on van. Wait. Whether it's on Silent at the edge could be in the cloud your Veum wear on eight of us. >> David David so I want to get your thoughts just don't want to jump into because, you know, I love pivotal what they've done. I've always felt as a standalone company they probably couldn't compete with Amazon to scale what's going on in the other things. But bring it back in the fold in VM, where you mentioned this a couple of our interviews yesterday, Dave, and still you illuminate to to the fact of the cloud native world coming together. It's better inside VM wear because they can package pivotal and not have to bet the ranch on the outcome in the marketplace where this highly competitive statements out there so you get the business value of Pivotal. The upside now can be managed. Do your thoughts first, then go to date >> about Pivotal. Yeah, as >> an integrated, integrated is better for the industry than trying to bet the ranch on a pier play >> right? So, John, yesterday we had a little discussion about hybrid and multi cloud and still early about there, but the conversation of past five years ago was very different from the discussion. Today, Docker had a ripple effect with Containers and Veum. Where is addressing that and it made sense for Pivotal Cut to come home, if you will. They still have the Pivotal Labs group that can work with customers going through that transformation and a number of other pieces toe put together. But you ve m where is doing a good enough job to give customers the comfort that we can move you forward to the cloud. You don't have to abandon us and especially all those people that do VM Where is they don't have to be frozen where they are >> a business value. >> Well, I think you've got to start with the transaction and provide a historical context. So this goes back to what I used to call the misfit toys. The Federation. David Golden's taking bits and pieces of of of Dragon Pearl of assets in side of E, M. C and V M wear and then creating Pivotal out of whole cloth. They need an I P O. Michael Dell maintained 70% ownership of the company and 96% voting shares floated. The stock stock didn't do well, bought it back on 50 cents on the dollar. A so what the AIPO price was and then took a of Got a Brit, brought back a $4 billion asset inside of the M wear and paid $900 million for it. So it's just the brilliant financial transaction now, having said all that, what is the business value of this? You know, when I come to these shows, I'd liketo compare what they say in the messaging and the keynotes to what practitioners are saying in the practitioners last night were saying a couple of things. First of all, they're concerned about all the salmon. A like one. Practitioners said to me, Look, if it weren't for all these acquisitions that they announced last minute, what would we be hearing about here? It would have been NSX and V san again, so there's sort of a little concerns there. Some of the practitioners I talked to were really concerned about integration. They've done a good job with Nasasira, but some of the other acquisitions that they may have taken longer to integrate and customers are concerned, and we've seen this movie before. We saw the DMC. We certainly saw the tell. We're seeing it again now, at the end where Veum where? Well, they're very good at integrating companies. Sometimes that catches up to you. The last thing I'll say is we've been pushing You just mentioned it, Justin. On Dev's not a deaf show. Pivotal gives VM where the opportunity to whether it's a different show are an event within the event to actually attract the depths. But I would say in the multi cloud world, VM wears sitting in a good position. With the exception of developers pivotal, I think it's designed to solve that problem. Just tell >> your thoughts. >> Do you think that Veum, where is, is at risk of becoming a portfolio company just like a M A. M. C. Watts? Because it certainly looks at the moment to me like we look at all the different names for things, and I just look at the brand architecture of stuff. There are too many brands. There are too many product names, it's too confusing, and there's gonna have to be a culottes some point just to make it understandable for customers. Otherwise, we're just gonna end up with this endless sprawl, and we saw what the damage that did it. At present, I am saying >> it's a great point and Joseph Joe to cheese used to say that overlap is better than gaps, and I and I agree with him to appoint, you know better until it's not. And then Michael Dell came in and Bar came and said, Look, if we're gonna compete with Amazon's cost structure, we have to clean this mess up and that's what they've been doing it a lot of hard work on that. And so, yeah, they do risk that. I think if they don't do that integration, it's hard to do that. Integration, as you know, it takes time. Um, and so I have Right now. All looks good, right? Right down the middle. As you say, John, are >> multi cloud. Big topic gestation period is going to take five years to seven years. When the reality multi cloud a debate on Twitter last night, someone saying, I'm doing multi cloud today. I mean, we had Gelsinger's layout, the definition of multi cloud. >> Well, he laid out his definition definition. Everyone likes to define its. It's funny how, and we mentioned this is a stew and I earlier on the other set, cloud were still arguing about what cloud means exit always at multi cloud, which kind of multi cloud is a hybrid bowl over. And then you compare that to EJ computing, which computing was always going on. And then someone just came along and gave it a name and everyone just went, huh? OK, and go on with their lives. And so why is cloud so different and difficult for people to agree on what the thing is? >> There's a lot of money being made and lost, That's why >> right day the thing I've said is for multi cloud to be a real thing, it needs to be more valuable to a customer than the sum of its pieces on. And, you know, we know we're gonna be an Amazon reinvent later this year we will be talking, you know? Well, they will not be talking multi cloud. We might be talking about it, but >> they'll be hinting to hybrid cloud may or may not say >> that, you know, hybrid is okay in their world with outpost and everything they're doing in there partnering with VM wear. But you know, the point I've been looking at here is you know, management of multi vendor was atrocious. And, you know, why do we think we're going to any better. David, who hired me nine years ago. It was like I could spend my entire career saying, Management stinks and security needs to be, >> you know, So I want to share lawyers definition. They published in Wicked Bon on Multiply Multi Cloud Hybrid Cloudy, Putting together True Hybrid Cloud Multiply Any application application service can run on any node of the hybrid cloud without rewriting, re compiling or retesting. True hybrid cloud architectures have a consistent set of hardware. Software service is a P I is with integrated network security data and control planes that are native to and display the characteristics of public cloud infrastructure is a service. These attributes could be identically resident on other hybrid nodes independent of location, for example, including on public clouds on Prem or at the edge. That ain't happening. It's just not unless you have considered outposts cloud a customer azure stack. Okay, and you're gonna have collections of those. So that vision that he laid out, I just I think it's gonna >> be David. It's interesting because, you know, David and I have some good debates on this. I said, Tell me a company that has been better at than VM wear about taking a stack and letting it live on multiple hardware's. You know, I've got some of those cars are at a big piece last weekend talking about, you know, when we had to check the bios of everything and when blade Service rolled out getting Veum whereto work 15 years ago was really tough. Getting Veum were to work today, but the >> problem is you're gonna have outposts. You're gonna have project dimensions installed. You're gonna have azure stacks installed. You're gonna have roll your own out there. And so yeah, VM where is gonna work on all >> those? And it's not gonna be a static situation because, you know, when I talk to customers and if they're using V M where cloud on AWS, it's not a lift and shift and leave it there, Gonna modernize their things that could start using service is from the public cloud and they might migrate some of these off of the VM where environment, which I think, is the thing that I am talking to customers and hearing about that It's, you know, none of these situations are Oh, I just put it there and it's gonna live there for years. It's constantly moving and changing, and that is a major threat to VM wears multi clouds, >> Traffic pushes. Is it technically feasible without just insanely high degrees of homogeneity? That's that's the question. >> I I don't think it is and or not. I don't think it's a reasonable thing to expect anyway, because any enterprise you have any M and a activity, and all of a sudden you've got more than one that's always been true, and it will always be true. So if someone else makes a different choice and you buy them, then we'll have both. >> So maybe that's not a fair definition, but that's kind of what what? One could infer that. I think the industry is implying that that is hybrid multi club because that's the nirvana that everybody wants. >> Yeah, the only situation I can see where that could maybe come true would be in something like communities where you're running things on as an abstraction on top off everything else, and that that is a common abstraction that everyone agrees on and builds upon. But we're already seeing how that works out in real life. If >> I'm >> using and Google Antos. I can't easily move it to P. K s or open shift. There's English Kubernetes, as Joe Beta says, is not a magic layer, and everybody builds. On top of >> it, is it? Turns out it's actually not that easy. >> Well, and plus people are taken open source code, and then they're forking it and it building their own proprietary systems and saying, Hey, here's our greatest thing. >> Well, the to the to the credit of CNC, if Kubernetes. Does have a kind of standardized, agreed to get away away from that particular issue. So that's where it stands a better chance and say unfortunately, open stack. So because we saw a bit of that change of way, want to go this way? And we want to go that way. So there's a lot of seeing and zagging, at least with communities. You have a kind of common framework. But even just the implementation of that writing it, >> I love Cooper. I think I've been a big fan of committed from Day one. I think it's a great industry initiative. Having it the way it's rolling out is looking very good. I like it a lot. The comments that we heard on the Cube of Support. Some of my things that I'm looking at is for C N C s Q. Khan Come coop con Coming up is what happened with Kay, native and SDO because that's what I get to see the battleground for above Goober Netease. You see, that's what differentiates again. That's where that the vendors are gonna start to differentiate who they are. So I think carbonates. It could be a great thing. And I think what I learned here was virtualization underneath Kubernetes. It doesn't matter if you want to run a lot. Of'em Furat scale No big deal run Cooper's on top. You want to run in that bare metal? God bless you, >> Go for it. I think this use cases for both. >> That's why I particularly like Tenzer is because for those customers who wanna have a bit of this, cupidity is I don't want to run it myself. It's too hard. But if I trust Vienna where to be able to run that in to upgrade it and give me all of the goodness about operating it in the same way that I do the end where again we're in and I'll show. So now I can have stuff I already know in love, and I can answer incriminating on top of it. >> All right, But who's gonna mess up Multi clouds do. Who's the vendor? I'm not >> even saying it s so you can't mess up something that >> who's gonna think vision, this vision of multi cloud that the entire industry is putting forth who's gonna throw a monkey? The rich? Which vendor? Well, screw it. So >> you know, licensing usually can cause issues. You know, our friend Corey Crane with a nice article about Microsoft's licensing changes there. You know, there are >> lots of Amazon's plays. Oh, yeah. Okay. Amazon is gonna make it. >> A multi clock is not in the mob, >> but yet how could you do multi cloud without Amazon? >> They play with >> control. My the chessboard on my line has been Amazon is in every multi cloud because if you've got multiple clouds, there's a much greater than likely chance >> I haven't been. You know, my feeling is in looking at the history of how multi vendor of all from the I T industry from proprietary network operating systems, many computers toe open systems, D c P I P Web, etcetera. What's going on now is very interesting, and I think the sea so ce of the canary in the coal mine, not Cee Io's because they like multi vendor. They want multiple clouds. They're comfortable that they got staff for that si sos have pressure, security. They're the canary in the coal mine and all the seasons lights, while two are all saying multi clouds b s because they're building stacks internally and they want to create their own technology for security reasons and then build a P eyes and make a P. I's the supplier relationship and saying, Hey, supplier, if you want to work with me, me support my stack I think that is an interesting indication. What that means is that the entire multi cloud thing means we're pick one clown build on, have a backup. We'll deal with multiple clouds if there's workloads in there but primary one cloud, we'll be there. And I think that's gonna be the model. Yes, still be multiple clouds and you got azure and get office 3 65 That's technically multi cloud, >> but I want to make a point. And when pats on we joke about The cul de sac is hybrid cloud a cul de sac, and you've been very respectful and basically saying Yap had okay, But But But you were right, Really. What's hybrid would show me a hybrid cloud. It's taken all this time to gestate you where you see Federated Applications. It's happening. You have on prim workloads, and you have a company that has public cloud workloads. But they're not. Hybrid is >> the region. Some we'll talk about it, even multi. It is an application per cloud or a couple of clouds that you do it, but it's right. Did he follow the sun thing? That we might get there 15 years ago? Is >> no. You're gonna have to insist that this >> data moving around, consistent >> security, governance and all the organizational edicts across all those platforms >> the one place, like all week for that eventually and this is a long way off would be if you go with Serverless where it's all functions and now it's about service composition and I don't care where it lives. I'm just consuming a service because I have some data that I want to go on process and Google happens to have the best machine learning that I need to do it on that data. Also use that service. And then when I actually want to run the workload and host it somewhere else, I drop it into a CD in with an application that happens to run in AWS. >> Guys wrapping up day to buy It's just gonna ask, What is that animal? It must be an influence because hasn't said a word. >> Thistles. The famous blue cow She travels everywhere with me, >> has an INSTAGRAM account. >> She used to have an instagram. She now she doesn't. She just uses my Twitter account just in time to time. >> I learned a lot about you right now. Thanks for sharing. Great to have you. Great as always, Great commentary. Thanks for coming with Bay three tomorrow. Tomorrow. I want to dig into what's in this for Del Technologies. What's the play there when I unpacked, that is tomorrow on day three million. If there's no multi cloud and there's a big tam out there, what's in it for Michael Dell and BM where it's Crown Jewel as the main ingredient guys, thanks for coming stupid in Manchester words, David Want them? John, Thanks for watching day, too. Inside coverage here are wrap up. Thanks for watching

>> live from San Francisco, celebrating 10 years of high tech coverage. It's the Cube covering Veum, World 2019 brought to you by IBM Wear and its ecosystem partners. >> And welcome back here, San Francisco Moscow Centre, North John Walls along with John Troyer. We're live here on the Cuban Veum World 2019 and right now we're joined by Christmas. Reynolds, who's a product in court product management and Clyde on data service, is for Centurylink. It's good to see you, sir. Good to be here. Thank you. And And he's gonna tell us today why Milliseconds matter, right? You are. >> That is the goal. Your >> your subject of ah, coming presentation. Just about 45 minutes or so. But we'll get to that a little bit. First off, let's just paint the picture of centurylink your presence here quite obvious. But you know what your portfolio includes? There what you're up to, and maybe starting to hint a little bit about why milliseconds matter to you. >> Makes it so. Where a technology company, global in nature. A lot of our roots started with fiber connectivity. Basic networking service is I. P Service is. But over the years we've become far more of a nightie service company. So there was an acquisition of Savvas a long time ago that brought a lot of those capabilities to our company. And we've made more fold in acquisitions that have also bolster those capabilities. We have invested heavily in Security Service's recently and about two weeks ago we had an announcement that said, We're investing heavily an edge compute getting workloads closer to end users. And that's really where milliseconds matters. You want the performance of those applications to consumers or machinery or whatever it may be toe work effectively and work well. And sometimes that requires that those workloads air in close proximity to the end users. >> Would you bring up ej compute? We were just having this discussion before we started, John asked of you. Okay, What? How do you define the because of there A lot of different slices of that, right? Different interpretations, different definitions. So with that being said, how do you define and or at least in your mind, how do you separate edge or what's true edge? Yeah, >> good questions. I think he was John question, not mine. I chuckled time, so because there is no perfect answer. Uh, the broadest definition I've seen is that you have core, and you can think eight of us Azure. You can think where the big core cloud nodes are that are pretty central, maybe 50 milliseconds away from the end users. There's two intermediate edges, if you will, and this is where there are varying opinions. To me, there's really only one if you're within five milliseconds of where your end users are, I consider that to be a market edge. Some people say there's a closer edge that's in within a millisecond of the end users, but I just I personally have not seen the use cases come out yet that require that low of a late unsee that don't actually reside where the end users are so >> going. Well, that's, um, so that's, um, modules at a at a warehouse or ah, manufacturing facility. Is that what? Is that what you consider like an edge? Uh, media marketed? >> Yeah, in >> theirs. It's interesting if you have 10 manufacturing plants in a geographic area, or maybe a better example is if you're a logistics company and you have sorting and distribution centers, you have multiple of those in an area that can all use the same compute as long as it's within five milliseconds, you can do the sorting lines and keep the machinery working. You can get routed into the rate vehicles for distribution. That's a good market edge. When you get all the way to that, the deep edge or on premise they think of an autonomous vehicle is a good example. There are certain things you're not gonna want to transmit and make driving decisions that don't reside on that vehicle. You don't want to crash into anyone. You need almost instantaneous decisions. And that would be the edge that intermediate one millisecond that sits between the two of those. I think it pushes one direction or the other. >> So Chris, here in the emerald 2019 obviously a lot of talking about cloud, but very specifics. This year. We have a lot of specifics around what Veum, where is doing Hybrid Cloud Israel and of course, hybrid cloud implies the network. And so one of the latest announcement from Centurylink is that you're providing via more cloud on AWS you're managing. You are able to help manage provide that as a managed service. I know you already do. Manage service is where you managing stuff in your data centers. But you could, I guess you can also manage workloads on prim and talk a little bit about that portfolio and how adding Veum VMC on AWS few more cloud nebulas adds to that. And then maybe we'll slide into the networking peace and how important that is. >> So we have AH, tool called Cloud Application Manager that has been built over the past handful of years that allows customers to deploy workloads to AWS toe azure and now to be emcee on AWS as well as private cloud environment. So maybe customers want to host those workloads on premise. Maybe it's regulatory compliance or whatever the reason may be. So we have a lot of experience of helping customers deploy those workloads, and then a lot of customers come to us and want to manage. I want us to manage the life cycle of those workloads, those air, the core capabilities. I think the reason that VMC on AWS is so compelling to customers is a lot of customers may not want to deal with the hardware refresh cycles that they do when it's their own private cloud environment or their own hardware stack. This gives them the opportunity to migrate those workloads and a relatively seamless fashion into an environment that is sitting in Maur of, ah, public cloud type model where it's it's Op X versus the Catholics in the headache. >> Go ahead. John was good, just in terms of so and so. Part of why you would work with Centurylink is you are experienced manage service provider. But also you have ah lot of the networking set up to do that efficiently, right? So maybe you talk about some of the workload is that you see going up there and some of the tools and, uh, performance folks can expect, >> Yeah, that's near the core part of my products that so near and dear to me for sure. We've developed a lot of capabilities over the last year and 1/2 around dynamic networking. So if you have your existing VM wear environment in your own data center, or maybe it's a private cloud that's managed by century link, we now have the ability for customers to go in and create net new connections, private network connections that have better Leighton see have better through putting performance between those environments and AWS or, in this case, VMC on AWS. And it allows customers to do a couple of things if they have their own environment and they're happy with it today. But it's not scaling, and they need to add more capacity. They could do that in the hybrid fashion in VMC on eight of us. If they're done with their existing environment hardware stack and they just want a forklift and move that into VMC on eight of us, they can create a big, large connection, push a ton of data over a few weeks, shut it down, and our building models and hourly billing models such that we're only charging them for as long as it's necessary. This gives them flexibility to manage where their workloads air sitting between those two locations as they see fit over time. >> So you're talking about all these new flexibilities new capabilities, much more agile systems being, I guess, interconnected with each other, right? But whether it's hybrid or whether it's multi cloud, whatever the case is, >> how you how to get >> everybody or everything that talk to each other in a way that works and provides, You know, the addresses, the Leighton see challenge, because to me, I'm again outside looking in. That's Ah, that's a big hurdle. As new capabilities get developed, new possibilities exists, but we gotta make it fast way, and we have to make sure they're they're speaking the same language. >> Yeah, it's a great question, and it is very challenging, and it is not all automated today as much as we would like. We have great integration to deploy workloads between environments. We've spent a ton of time from a networking standpoint of integrating with different cloud providers, and they each have their loan little nuances and to make it common between all of them takes a lot of time and effort. Where a lot of our focus is going in the next 12 months is how do you take those application, migration and management capabilities we have in one tool set? How do you marry that? With all of the dynamic networking capabilities and standardization across the cloud providers, we've done so the now it's not only are you moving network workloads, you're also creating the right underlying network to support those workloads in that multi cloud fashion well to capabilities we have. We just need to marry him up a little more clearly. >> I mean, what are you saying out there in the market with your customers? Multi Cloud Bright is perhaps another overused word like EJ. Are you seeing multi cloud portfolios? Are you seeing applications? Talk, actually use have data in one place, and and the and the computer and another. And obviously network becomes increasingly important if that's a reality today. But is that is that real, or is that still science fiction? >> It's becoming more riel so that there are a lot of customers. My pain, A lot of enterprises really bet big on one cloud provider because you have to build up the competency of capabilities inside your own shop and you become really good with working in Azure. Eight of us or Google or of'em were on the hunt. BP BMC Oh, the companies that are doing true multi cloud and using multiple cloud providers. Well, our companies that probably reside around here, so I won't say any of these specifically or doing this mutt. Companies like uber companies like Spotify companies that are born in the cloud that started with those core competencies will take the best of multiple cloud providers. So maybe the Big Data Analytics sitting in Google is most intriguing to them. But they love the tale of the storage cost. Price points on eight of us, and they love this. Ask spit in azure. They'll piece together components since they built it in a containerized fashion. And they take the best of what each cloud has to offer and into your point. The cloud providers air coming to centurylink and saying We need a better way to stitch together all of these different cloud environments because people, the cutting edge developers are pushing us in that direction. Now >> what about the the application network relationship? Um, changing is, you know, you see a shift there of some kind of as, uh, we're talking about, obviously a lot of new opportunities, a lot of developments, and so does that alter the dynamics of that relationship in any way >> It does, and it's the same conversations I just mentioned. Actually, that's driving it. I think today it is network engineers and network infrastructure. People reacting to applications not performing well are reacting to a software developers requested toe add this Google region or that VM wear on on AWS region over time. What's gonna happen, I believe, is their service mesh orchestration capabilities like SDO is a good example is the one Google is pushing hard and it would it allows people to do is from a rules driven perspective. I want my application to have these Leighton see requirements and you can't find me a network solution that is any worse than that. Or if you're seeing packet loss greater than 80% I want you to add more capacity to the network. It won't be humans the network engineers doing that. It's going to be application saying here are my criteria for me to work well, networks Let me see all the options I have out there now. I'm gonna go pick the best one and change it if I need you to make make myself work the way I need to. As an application. >> I love that that I've never connected Is Theo down as as an at, sir, as an APP service layer down to the network. Thank you. I just have a new I got a new thought. Eureka another reason >> why milliseconds matter. That's right. Hey, Chris. Thanks for the time. We appreciate that. I know this is a very busy time for you on. You do have a speaking engagements. We're gonna cut you loose for that. But thanks for spending time with us. And good luck. It centurylink appreciate it. Enjoyed it. Looking forward, Thio. More success. Back with more for Vimal. World 2019 after this short break right here on the Q.

>> Live from Barcelona, Spain it's theCUBE. Covering KubeCon + CloudNativeCon Europe 2019. Brought to you by Red Hat, the Cloud Native Computing Foundation and ecosystem partners. >> Welcome back to theCUBE here in Barcelona, Spain at the Fira, it's KubeCon + CloudNativeCon 2019. I'm Stu Miniman and my co-hosts for two days of live wall-to-wall coverage is Corey Quinn. Joining us back, we have two CUBE alums, Liz Rice, right to my right here who is a Technology Evangelist with Aqua security. Liz, thank you so much welcome back. >> Pleasure to be here. >> And Jeff Brewer, Vice President and Chief Architect, Small Business & Self-Employed Group, of Intuit. A CUBE alum since a few hours ago this morning. >> Yes, yes, thank you. >> Jeff, welcome back. >> Thank you. >> So, we've got you back with a different hat. Everybody in our industry can definitely recognize we wear lots of different hats we have lots of jobs thrown at us. Both of you are in the Technical Oversight Committee and Liz is not only a member but also the Chairperson, President. (people laughing) >> President is definitely a promotion. But, yeah, I'm Chair of the committee. >> Maybe, as it's known, the TOC. Liz, before we get there, your shirt says +1 binding. You have to explain for us and did not get a preview before the interview, so we'll see where this goes. >> It's one of the perks of being on the TOC. When we have something that comes to a vote we want to get input from the community so we ask anyone in the community to vote. But unless you're a member of the TOC your vote is non-binding. As a member of the committee, we have binding votes. And the traditional thing you write on the voting email is +1 binding. So, it's a nice surprise to get a t-shirt when I joined the TOC. >> Very nice. Can you just give us, our audience, that might not be familiar with the TOC, give us some of the key things about it. >> It's the Technical Oversight Committee for the CNCF. We are, really, the technical curation of the projects that come in to the CNCF. Which projects will get support and at what level because we have the sandbox experimentation stage then incubation and then finally graduation for the really established and kind of, de-risked projects. So, we're really evaluating the projects and kind of making a decision collaboratively on which ones we want the CNCF to support. >> All right. So Jeff, we had a great conversation with you about Intuit's cloud journey. Tell us how you got involved in the TOC. We always love the end users, not just using but participating in and helping to give some governance over what the community is doing. >> Yeah, so, about a year and a half ago we made a decision to acquire a small company called Applatix. Who was, actually, already in the end user community. And also contributors as well. Through that acquisition, I was part of that acquisition, I led that acquisition from the Intuit side and really got excited about the Kubernetes and the KubeCon story overall. Through the Kubernetes experts, I met them at a KubeCon and they introduced me to a whole lot more of the community. Just through some overall partnerships with AWS and also spending a lot of time with end-users that's how I really got to know the community a little bit. And then, was voted onto the CNCF as an end user representative in January. >> Wonderful. As far as you're concerned, as you go through this, do you find it challenging at times to separate your roles professionally from working for a large company, to whom many things matter incredibly. Again, as mentioned earlier, I am one of your customers. I care very much about technical excellence, coming out of Intuit, versus your involvement with the larger project. >> Yeah, so like most people in technology companies I'm extremely busy and I would love to spend, I would love to clone myself and spend more (laughing) more time. >> Everybody wants to submit a client project to the TOC we will prioritize that one. >> Exactly, exactly. >> The way I really balance it is that I make an explicit time carve out for those two activities. And most importantly, I attend the meetings. The TOC meetings that we have, those are extremely important. We get a lot of project reviews in those meetings. Liz chairs those meetings. That's where I always make sure that my schedule is cleared for that. >> Taking it, I guess, one step further. Do you find it challenging at all to separate out, in fact, when you're making decisions and making votes, for example, that are presumably binding, +1 binding as we've learned now, is the terminology. Do you find that you are often pulled between trying to advocate for your company and advocating for the community or are they invariably aligned in your mind? >> I mean, my job's the easiest because I come from an end user. So what I use and what I consume is likely what the community at large. There might be some niches and stuff like that. But I usually don't have that conflict. I don't know, as more of a vendor, you might have more of a conflict. >> It's something that I have be conscious of. I just try to mentally separate. I have a role with a company that pays my salary but when I'm doing open-source things if I feel conflicted about. This hasn't really come up yet, but if I do feel that there's some kind of conflict of interest I will always recuse myself. Actually, in my previous role, as the Co-Chair for the Program Committee for the KubeCon and CloudNativeCon Conference, on a couple of occasions we had competitors submit, and I would always just step back from those. Because it's the right thing to do. >> All right. So Liz, there's quite a few projects now, under the umbrella of CNCF. If I've go it right, it was like, 38 different ones. When Brian went on the stage this morning, 16 in the sandbox, 16 incubating and six have graduated now. How do you manage that? You know, there's some in the community they're like, oh my gosh, reminds us of like, big tent, from some initiatives. Some other things here, how much is too much? How do you balance that and what's the input of the TOC? >> Yeah, so one of the things that we're doing with the TOC is we've just established a thing called the SIGs, the special interest groups. Very much following the same model of Kubernetes SIGs. But the idea here is that we can, kind of formalize getting experts in the community to help us with particular kind of areas. So, we've already got a storage and security SIG set up. We expect there will be probably four to six more coming on board during the year. And that helps us with things like the project reviews and the due diligence to just be able to say, we would really appreciate some help. Those groups are also really enthusiastic about kind of sharing knowledge in the form of things like white papers. I think it will be really important for end-users to be able to navigate their way around these projects. Quite often there is more than one solution for a particular thing. And being able to, in a non-vendor way, in a neutral way, express why project X is good in one circumstance and project Y would be better in a different environment. There's work to be done there and I'm hoping to see that come out. >> This is one of my passions as the end user representative, is that trail map or that road map. That's one of the reasons why we really have invested at Intuit, in the Kubernetes technology and the Cloud Native technology. We didn't just roll them out as is. We actually curate them and create, really, a paved road for our developers to navigate that space. >> Yeah, and as we heard from your story it's not always, well, if there's some overlap you use SDO and Hellman. >> Yeah. >> That there's a fit for both of those in your environment, right. >> Yeah. >> From a, I guess, an end user perspective is there a waiting difference between someone like Intuit and someone like Twitter for pets, where there's a slight revenue scale, a slight revenue difference, like scale difference, like everything difference. >> Yes. >> Certainly, there is. I think that, but that's one of the beautiful things about the Cloud Native technologies. You can consume what you need and what you want, right. It's not one size fits all. A lot of people talk about, oh, there's a paradox of choice, there's so many projects, right. Actually, that's a benefit. Really, all you need is that road map to navigate your way through that, rather than just adopting a paved road that might not work for everybody. >> It almost feels, to some extent, almost like the AWS Service Catalog. Whenever you wind up looking at all the things they offer. It feels like going out to eat at the Cheesecake Factory. Where there is 80 pages of menu to flip through with some advertisements, great. And reminding yourself, at time, that they are not Pokemon, you do not need to catch them all. It's, sometimes, a necessary step, as you start to contextualize this. >> That's one of the great things about having over 80 members in the end user is. You can find a buddy, you can find a company like you. Talk to them, get connected with them and figure out what they're doing and learn from them. The community is broad enough to be able to do that. >> All right, so Liz, let's talk about security. >> Okay. (people laughing) >> You said there's a SIG that started up. Where are we, how are things going and you can you share about where we're going in the near future? >> The SIG came together from a group of people who really wanted to make it easier for end-users to roll out their Cloud Native stacks in a secure fashion. We don't always, as a community, speak the same language about security, we don't always have the most secure settings by default. They really came together around this common interest of just making it easier for people to secure. I think a big part of that will be looking at how the different projects, are they applying best practices from a security perspective? Is there more they should do to document how to operate their particular project more securely? I think that whole initiative and that group of people who've come together for SIG security, I'm so impressed and so pleased that they have come together with that enthusiasm to help on that front. >> Any commentary on what you're seeing in this space? >> Yeah, so as an almost, a fintech company, with a lot of fintech and, you know, we're not quite a bank, but we have a lot of the same security and compliance things. That SIG is so, so important to us. And having a roadmap. I found a education is really, really a big part of it of the security experts, right. Because this is somewhat newer technology. Even though it's been in use at Google for a long time the regulator's, the compliance people, don't totally understand it, right. So you have to have a way to explain to them what's going on. So things like, open policy agent, something that we've adopted, helps us explain what's going on in our system. Once they get it, they're like, this is awesome and our end users can now, really, our end users, meaning the people that use QuickBooks and TurboTax can really trust that we have those guardrails in place. >> At Aqua, it's a huge concern from a lot of our customers. Many of whom, coming from that kind of finance industry. That they're coming to us and saying, well, how can I be PCI compliant or GDPR. How do I manage these requirements with my container based stack, with my Cloud Native stack. That's why there is this huge ecosystem quite a lot of effort around security, compliance, policy. >> It feels very much like it's two problems rolled into one. First, how do you make sure that data is secure in these things? Secondly, how do you effectively and responsibly communicate that to a regulator, who expects to be taken on a tour of a data center when they show up on site? (people laughing) I checked, they won't let you. >> There are definitely two sets of security people in my experience. There are a set of people who care about how will I get attacked. How will breaches happen. And there are other people who go, I have a checklist and I need to check the boxes in the checklist, tell me how. Sometimes those two things overlap, but not always. >> All right, Liz, lot of updates, as always. Jeff, I really appreciate your commentary there. Well, there's the paradox of choice but we have a lot of customers out there and therefore we do. (people chuckling) Any highlights you want to share with our audience? >> I think one thing that happens every year is we see more. Well, we saw Kubernetes graduate, I think, early last year, end of the previous year. Now we've got six projects into graduation. From my perspective, that says something about how mature this whole set of projects, this whole platform is becoming. Because graduation is a pretty high bar. Not least in terms of the number of end users that have to be using it in production. This is solid technology. >> Yeah, any highlights from you? >> I think, like we might have touched on a little bit this morning. But I think that usually the technologies that where you're facing the big problems is pretty obvious which one to use, right. Like serverless, you're going to go look at something like Knative or whatnot. Functions as a service. There's some open fast projects, whatnot, like that. SDO services mesh is another one where it's getting mature and it's getting to the point where you can have these ubiquitous service meshes throughout it. So, those are the areas that we're most looking at right now. >> Great, all right. Well, Liz and Jeff, thank you so much for joining us. Thanks for all the work you do on the Oversight Committee and appreciate you sharing the updates with our community. >> Thank you for having us. >> Thank you. >> For Cory Quinn, I'm Stu Miniman. We'll be back more, with theCUBE here at KubeCon + CloudNativeCon 2019. Thanks for watching. (upbeat music)

>> fly from San Francisco. It's the Cube covering Google Cloud next nineteen, brought to you by Google Cloud and its ecosystem partners. >> Welcome back. This is Day three of Google Cloud. Next, you're watching the Cube, the leader in live tech coverage. The cube goes out to the events. We extract the signal from the noise. My name is Dave Volante. I'm here with my co host to minimum. John Farrier has been here >> all week. Wall to wall >> coverage, three days. Check out cube dot net for all the videos. Silicon angle dot com For all the news, Eric Brewer is here is the vice president of Infrastructure and a Google fellow. Dr Breuer, Thanks for coming on The Cube. >> Happy to be here to see >> you. So tell us the story of sort of infrastructure and the evolution at Google. And then we'll talk about how you're you're taking what you've learned inside a googol and helping customers apply it. >> Yeah, one or two things about Google is it essentially makes no use of virtual machines internally. That's because Google started in nineteen ninety eight, which is the same year that VM where started it was kind of brought the modern virtual machine to bear. And so good infrastructure tends to be built really on kind of classic Unix processes on communication. And so scaling that up, you get a system that works a lot with just prophecies and containers. So kind of when I saw containers come along with Doctor who said, Well, that's a good model for us and we could take what we know internally, which was called Boring a big scheduler and we could turn that into Cooper Netease and we'LL open source it. And suddenly we have kind of a a cloud version of Google that works the way we would like it to work a bit more about the containers and AP eyes and services rather than kind of the low level infrastructure. >> Would you refer from from that comment that you essentially had a cleaner sheet of paper when when containers started to ascend, I >> kind of feel like it's not an accident. But Google influenced Lena Lennox's use of containers right, which influenced doctors use of containers, and we kind of merged the two concepts on. It became a good way to deploy applications that separates the application from the underlying machine instead of playing a machine and OS and application together, we'd actually like to separate those and say we'LL manage the Western machine and let's just deploy applications independent of machines. Now we can have lots of applications for machine improved realization. Improve your productivity. That's kind of way we're already doing internally what was not common in the traditional cloud. But it's actually a more productive way to work, >> Eric. My backgrounds and infrastructure. And, you know, I was actually at the first doctor. Calm back in twenty fourteen, only a few hundred of us, you know, right across the street from where we were here. And I saw the Google presentation. I was like, Oh, my gosh, I lived through that wave of virtual ization, and the nirvana we want is I want to just be able to build my application, not worry about all of those underlying pieces of infrastructure we're making progress for. We're not there. How are we doing as an industry as a whole? And, you know, get Teo, say it's where are we? And what Google looking that Cooper, Netease and all these other pieces to improve that. What do you still see is the the the room for growth. >> Well, it's pretty clear that you Burnett is one in the sense that if you're building new applications for enterprise, that's currently the way you would build them now. But it doesn't help you move your legacy stuff on it for, say, help you move to the cloud. It may be that you have worth loads on Crim that you would like to modernize their on V EMS or bare metal, their traditional kind of eighties APS in Java or whatever. And how does Cooper Netease affect those? That's that's actually still place where I think things are evolving. The good news now is much easier to mix kind of additional services and new services using SDO and other things on GC people contain arising workloads. But actually it would say most people are actually just do the new stuff in Cooper Netease and and wrapped the old stuff to make it look like a service that gets you pretty far. And then over time you khun containerized workloads that you really care about. You want to invest in and what's new with an so so you can kind of make some of those transitions on fram. Ifyou'd like separate from moving to the cloud and then you can decide. Oh, this workload goes in the cloud. This work load. I need to keep on priming for awhile, but I still want to modernize it of a lot more flexibility. >> Can you just parts that a little bit for us? You're talking about the migration service that that's that's coming out? Or is it part of >> the way the Val Estrada work, which is kind of can take a V M A. Converted to a container? It's a newer version of that which really kind of gives you a A manifest, essentially for the container. So you know what's inside it. You can actually use it as in the modern way. That's migration tool, and it's super useful. But I kind of feel like even just being able to run high call the Communities on Crim is a pretty useful step because you get to developer velocity, you get released frequency. You get more the coupling of operations and development, so you get a lot of benefits on treme. But also, when you move to cloud, you could go too geeky and get a you know, a great community experience whenever you're ready to make that transition. >> So it sounds like that what you described with Santos is particularly on from pieces like an elixir to help people you know more easily get to a cloud native environment and then, ultimately, Brigitte to the >> class. That's kind of like we're helping people get cloud native benefits where they are right now. On a day on their own time. Khun decide. You know not only when to move a workload, but even frankly, which cloud to move it to right. We prefer, obviously moved to Google Cloud, and we'LL take our chances because I think these cattle native applications were particularly good at. But it's more important that they are moving to this kind of modern platform but helps them, and it increases our impact on the Indus. Sory to have this happen. >> Help us understand the nuance there because there's obvious benefits of being in the public cloud. You know, being able to rent infrastructure op X versus cap packs and manage services, etcetera. But to the extent that you could bring that cloud experience, Tio, you're on premises to your data. That's what many people want to have that hybrid experience for sure. But but other than that, the obvious benefits that I get from a public cloud, what are the other nuances of actually moving into the public cloud from experience standpoint in the business value perspective? >> Well, one question is, how much rewriting do you have to do because it's a big transition? Moved a cloud that's also big transition to rewrite some of your applications. So in this model, we're actually separating those two steps, and you can do them in either order. You can lift and shift to move to cloud and then modernize it, but it's also perfectly fine. I'm gonna modernize on Graham, read my do my rewrites in a safe controlled environment that I understand this low risk for me. And then I'm going to move it to the cloud because now I have something that's really ready for the cloud and has been thought through carefully that way on that having those two options is actually an important change. With Anthony >> Wavered some stats. I think Thomas mentioned them that eighty percent of the workloads are still on prams way here. That all the time. And some portion of those workloads are mission critical workloads with a lot of custom code that people really don't want to necessarily freeze. Ah, and a lot of times, if you gonna migrate, you have to free. So my question is, can I bring some of those Antos on other Google benefits to on Prem and not have to freeze the code, not have to rewrite just kind of permanently essentially, uh, leave those there and it take my other stuff and move it into the cloud? Is that what people are doing? And can I >> work? Things mix. But I would say the beachhead is having well managed Cooper and his clusters on Prem. Okay, you can use for new development or a place to do your read rights or partial read writes. You convicts V EMS and mainframes and Cooper Netease. They're all mix herbal. It's not a big problem, especially this to where it could make him look like they're part of the same service >> on framework, Right? >> S o. I think it's more about having the ability to execute modern development on prim and feel like you're really being able to change those acts the way you want and on a good timeline. >> Okay, so I've heard several times this week that Santos is a game changer. That's how Google I think is looking at this. You guys are super excited about it. So one would presume then that that eighty percent on Prem is gonna just gonna really start to move. What your thoughts on that? >> I think the way to think about it is all the customs you talked to actually do want to move there were close to cloud. That's not really the discussion point anymore. It's more about reasons they can't, which could be. They already have a data center. They fully paid for two. There's regulatory issues they have to get resolved to. This workload is too messy. They don't want to touch it at all. The people that wrote it are here anymore. There's all kinds of reasons and so it's gone. I feel like the essence of it is let's just interacted the customer right now before they make a decision about their cloud on DH, help them and in exchange for that, I believe we have a much better chance to be their future clown, right? Right, Because we're helping them. But also, they're starting to use frameworks that were really good at all. Right, if they're betting on coordinates containers, I like our chances for winning their business down the road. >> You're earning their trust by providing those those capabilities. >> That's really the difference. We can interact with those eighty percent of workloads right now and make them better. >> Alright. So, Eric, with you, the term we've heard a bunch this meat, we because we're listening customers where we're meeting them where they are now. David Iran analyst. So we could tell customers they suck out a lot stuff. You should listen to Google. They're really smart, and they know how to do these things, right? Hopes up. Tell us some of those gaps there is to the learnings you've had. And we understand. You know, migrations and modernization is a really challenging thing, you know? What are some of those things that customers can do toe >> that's on the the basic issues. I would say one thing you get you noticed when using geeky, is that huh? The os has been passed for me magically. All right, We had these huge security issues in the past year, and no one on G had to do anything right. They didn't restart their servers. We didn't tell them. Oh, you get down time because we have to deal with these massive security tax All that was magically handled. Uh, then you say, Oh, I want to upgrade Cooper Netease. Well, you could do that yourself. Guess what? It's not that easy to do. Who Burnett is is a beast, and it's changing quickly every quarter. That's good in terms of velocity and trajectory, and it's the reason that so many people can participate at the same time. If you're a group trying to run communities on Prem, it's not that easy to do right, So there's a lot of benefit Justin saying We update Custer's all the time. Wear experts at this way will update your clusters, including the S and the Cuban A's version, and we can give you modern ing data and tell you how your clusters doing. Just stuff. It honestly is not core to these customers, right? They want to focus on there advertising campaign or their Their oil and gas were close. They don't want to focus on cluster management. So that's really the second thing >> they got that operating model. If I do Antos in my own data center of the same kind of environment, how do we deal with things like, Well, I need to worry about change management testing at all my other pieces Most of the >> way. The general answer to that is, you use many clusters. You could have a thousand clusters on time. If you want that, there's good reason to do that. But one reason is, well, upgrade the clusters individually so you could say, Let's make this cluster a test cluster We'LL upgrade it first and we'LL tell you what broke. If anything, if you give us tests we can run the test on then once we're comfortable that the upgrade is working, we'LL roll it out to all your clusters. Automatic thing with policy changes. You want to change your quota management or access control. We can roll up that change in a progressive way so that we do it first on clusters that are not so critical. >> So I gotta ask a question. You software guy, Uh and you're approaching this problem from a real software perspective. There are no box. I don't see a box on DH there. Three examples in the marketplace as your stack er, Oracle Clouded customer and Amazon Outpost Where there's a box. A box from Google. Pure software. Why no box? Do you need a box? The box Guys say you gotta have that. You have a box? Yes, you don't have a box, >> There's it's more like I would say, You don't have to have a box >> that's ever box. Okay, that's >> because again all these customers sorting the data center because they already have the hardware, right. If they're going to buy new hardware, they might as well move to cloud the police for some of the customers. And it turns out we can run on. Most of their hardware were leveraging VM wear for that with the partnership we announced here. So that's generally works. But that being said, we also now partnerships with Dell and others about if you want a box Cisco, Dell, HP. You can Actually, we'LL have offerings that way as well, and there's certainly good reason to do that. You can get up that infrastructure will know it works well. It's been tested, but the bottom line is, uh, we're going to do both models. >> Yeah, okay. So I could get a full stack from hardware through software. Yet through the partnerships on there's Your stack, >> Right And it'll always come from Partners were really working with a partner model for a lot of these things because we honestly don't have enough people to do all the things we would like to do with these customers. >> And how important is it that that on Prem Stack is identical from homogeneous with what's in the public cloud? Is it really? It sounds like you're cooking growing, but their philosophies well, the software components have to be >> really at least the core pieces to be the same, like Uber Netease studio on a policy management. If youse open source things like my sequel or Kafka or elastic, those auto operate the same way as well, right? So that when you're in different environments, you really kind of get the feeling of one environment one stroll plane used. Now that being said, if you want to use a special feature like I want to use big query that's only available on Google Cloud right, you can call it but that stuff won't be portable. Likewise is something you want to use on Amazon. You can use it, and that part will be portable. But at least you'LL get the most. Your infrastructure will be consistent across the platforms. >> How should we think about the future? You guys, I mean, just without giving away, you know, confidential information, obviously not going to do that, but just philosophically, Were you going when you talk to customers? What should their mindset be? How should they repeat preparing for the future? >> Well, I think it's a few bets were making. So you know, we're happy to work on kind of traditional cloud things with Bush machines and discs and lots of classic stuff that's still important. It's still needed. But I would say a few things that are interesting that we're pushing on pretty hard won in general. This move to a higher level stack about containers and AP eyes and services, and that's Cuba nowadays and SDO and its genre. But then the other thing I think interesting is we're making a pretty fundamental bit on open source, and it's a it's a deeper bad, then others air making right with partnerships with open source companies where they're helping us build the manage version of there of their product on. So I think that's that's really going to lead to the best experience for each of those packages, because the people that developed that package are working on it right, and we will share revenue with them. So it's it's, uh, Cooper. What is open source? Tension flows open. Source. This is kind of the way we're going to approach this thing, especially for a hybrid and mostly cloud where they're really in my mind is no other way to do multi cloud other than open source because it's the space is too fast moving. You're not going to say, Oh, here's a standard FBI for multi cloud because whatever a pair you define is going to be obsolete in a quarter or two, right? What we're saying is, the standard is not particular standard per se. It's the collection of open source software that evolves together, and that's how you get consistency across the environment is because the code is the same and in fact there is a standard. But we don't even know what it is exactly right. It's it's implicit in the code, >> Okay, but so any other competitors say, Okay, we love open source, too, will embrace open stores. What's different about Google's philosophy? >> Well, first of all, you could just look at a very high level of contribution back into the open source packages, not just the ones that were doing. You can see we've contributed things like the community's trademark so that that means it's actually not a Google thing anymore. Belonged to the proud Native Reading Foundation. But also, the way we're trying to partner with open source projects is really to give them a path to revenue. All right, give them a long term future on DH. Expectation is, that makes the products better. And it also means that, uh, we're implicitly preferred partner because we're the ones helping them. All >> right, Eric, One of things caught our attention this week really kind of extending containers with things like cloud code and cloud run. You speak a little bit to that and you know directionally where that's going, >> Yeah, crowd runs one of my favorite releases of this week. Both the one God code is great, also, especially, it's V s code integration which is really nice for developers. But I would say the cloud run kind of says we can take you know, any container that has a kind of a stateless thing inside and http interface and make it something we can run for you in a very clean way. What I mean by that is you pay per call and in particular Well, listen twenty four seven and case it call comes But if no call comes, we're going to charge you zero, right? So we'll eat the cost of listening for your package to arrive. But if a packet arrives for you, we will magically make sure you're there in time to execute it on. If you get a ton of connections, we'll scale you up. We could have a thousand servers running your cloud run containers. And so what you get is a very easy deployment model That is a generalization. Frankly, of functions, you can run a function, but you also run not only a container with kind of a managed run time ap engine style, but also any arbitrary container with your own custom python and image processing libraries. Whatever you want, >> here are our last guest at Google Cloud next twenty nineteen. So thank you. And so put a bow on the show this year. Obviously got the bigger, better shiny er Mosconi Center. It's awesome. Definitely bigger crowd. You see the growth here, but but tie a bow. Tell us what you think. Take us home. >> I have to say it's been really gratifying to see the reception that anthrax is getting. I do think it is a big shift for Google and a big shift for the industry. And, uh, you know, we actually have people using it, so I kind of feel like we're at the starting line of this change. But I feel like it's it's really resonated well this week, and it's been great to watch the reaction. >> Everybody wants their infrastructure to be like Google's. This is one of the people who made it happen. Eric, Thanks very much for coming in the Cube. Appreciate. Pleasure. All right, keep right, everybody. We'Ll be back to wrap up Google Cloud next twenty nineteen. My name is David. Dante. Student meant John Furry will be back on set. You're watching. The cube will be right back

>> fly from San Francisco. It's the Cube covering Google Club next nineteen, right Tio by Google Cloud and its ecosystem partners. >> Welcome back to San Francisco, everybody. You watching the Cube, the leader in live tech coverage. And we're here at the new improved Mosconi Center covering Google next twenty nineteen. I'm Dave along with my co hosts. Two minutes to get to see you. Russell Warming is here. He's the head of infrastructure at AutoTrader UK. Russell, Thanks for coming on the Cube. You very welcome. AUTOTRADER uk not to be confused with the U. S. Not a lot of you guys. They're separate cos >> yet completely separate. So way operate the largest automotive marketplace in the UK something like the sixteenth busiest website in the UK around fifty five million cross platform visits each month on average. Probably about five hundred thousand vehicles that were advertising out. Tio consumers >> are traitors. Awesome website If your eyes are second biggest purchase typically behind the home and and so Stew was asking you earlier if you if digital transformation meant anything to you and you said Well, we kind of went through a ten years ago yet, and it's kind of true You guys were like born in the Internet company would talk about >> that. So our heritage is that we've been around for forty forty years. We started producing magazines back in nineteen seventy seven. And then in ninety six, we would launched our first website on DH. We've basically just migrated those revenues from our print business online. And then about two thousand thirteen. We stop printing magazines all together. So we're truly digital business now, >> and people talk about digital transformation oftentimes in the context of data. So maybe talk about some of the things that you're doing in your business, some of the challenges that you face, where data fits in and we'Ll really get into it. >> Okay, so I'm we've got a couple of areas where we've been on premise for our data centers. Wave had that strategy for probably about fifteen years, and we've started to reach limits in terms of how we manage capacity within their on what we found is using cloud services as really enables so unlock capabilities, particularly around things like data on their. More recently, when we're thinking about using Cuban eaters and SDO, we've been able to take advantage of things like some of the security features, mutual tear less and service discovery. >> All right, so they also bring us inside your organization a little bit. You're head of infrastructure? Yeah. What does that mean to your business today? >> So way basically run the platform that runs auto trader dot co dot uk on were responsible for making sure that's available twenty four seven three six five So way. Want to make sure that we're able to give our internal customers the ability to release new applications new features as quickly as they want, but also that we're ensuring that our consumers are retailers get a great experience that it's fast performance secure. >> Yeah, and it could give us tease out a little bit, just kind of the scope, how many people you have and how do you balance the stuff that kind of is under your purview and the stuff that you manage that is outside of your four walls. >> So there's about twenty five people within the team. There's probably about ten people building the infrastructure and about fifteen people that are responsible for monitor in it. So we're not a big organization in terms of operations in infrastructure on. We have to work very closely with our product squads because we manage some elements of it. But we're dependent on them managing other elements as well. So we're trying to unlock platform capabilities so that we've got consistency that we're trying to provide those those capabilities rather than going off on finding something else. >> You've got infrastructure on Prem and you've got infrastructure in the cloud to cloud services, right? Yes. So oftentimes those aren't the same. But talk about your situation and you're on a journey, I presume. >> Way started about forty months ago, building out our cloud services on DH. Probably in the last four months, we've really started accelerating that that migration plan of applications moving it up into into Google Cloud on DH. Our ambition is to get that done in eighteen months because the complexity of managing multiple environments is something that we want to try and avoid. Minimize that. >> So is the aspiration to go all in >> waiting absolutely way. We've taken a view that for services that we can we'll take money services and then everything else will be cloud first >> believe I heard you say Cooper Netease is in the mix now. Can you explain where that fits? How you're using it? >> So that see, that's the platform that we're using. Teo. Build out all our applications in the clouds so that that's that's That's a lot of important >> air using any communities in your data center today? No, not all from a cloud. That's the platform layer that using the >> public? Absolutely so when we talked about should we use Cuban? It is way did discussed. Should we do it on Prem or do it in the cloud? And we just figured that we didn't want the overhead of managing it ourselves on prime, we thought it be better just to take it as a service almost and manage up in the cloud. >> Most of the shows we go too many of them, anyway. It's too, and I and the Cube they talk about multi cloud, and we often say multi cloud as a function of multi vendor. But certainly way heard today from Google. A multi cloud. What's your cloud strategy? Because there there's another camp that says, Well, if you do, multi cloud is more complex, it's less secure, it's more expensive. Are you trying to be kind of unit cloud or is that horses for courses? >> So we're three clouds today. So our data platforms, it's partly in G C P. But then partly in another cloud provider on then we're also for our enterprise applications were using another cloud provided because it makes sense to do so. So we want to use the right cloud for the right applications. I think that most of our customer facing applications will end up in G C. P. But some of the back end services my end up in of the cloud provide us >> Okay, so it's strategic fit based on the application? Absolutely. So what is the wheelhouse of of of? Of Google, in your view, from a customer's perspective. >> Um, so the fact that Cuban eighties was developed by Google is a really strong play there. It gives you confidence that they know Teo to look after it. Things like SDO have made a massive difference to our organization as well. We part of the reason why we've ended up using GDP was based on using SDO, and that was around solving a specific problem that we had so that those of the sort to to solve areas that we focused on. >> Just when you look at you know, you've got that hybrid, multi cloud environment that we find is pretty much the standard today. Can you speak a little bit of the management layer? How you look at that, you know, Is it good enough today? And what what? What could the industry do to make it even better? >> It's good enough for our needs. I think that the challenge that you've always got is data ingress and egress between between clouds as you want to move data or query data, making sure that you could do that in a secure way. That's probably the biggest challenge that you'd have on also around the cost of doing so. Those you know, those are probably the bigger challenges >> in the challenges. The cost in time of moving data is its security or the above. Maybe you could dig into that little bit. >> It's probably a little bit of all the above. If I'm honest, I think you could do so much to security plight. Private VP ends Between Between the cloud providers It's I guess that's the time and actually moving some of that data between the clouds is that there's a challenge, and then they cost. Like I say, it's difficult to predict how much it might cost you two to move some of that >> big challenges and from a business perspective that a driving your technology strategy, obviously you want consumers coming to your site. You want to make that as rich as possible for them. You've gotta monetization strategy as well. But you talk a little bit about the business drivers that are affecting your technology. >> Okay, so consumer demand is constantly changing. Technology is massively disrupting how people think about search for cars. We can see that there's a demanding in the in the marketplace for people just to be ableto choose it, choose a car on DH, have that customizing delivered. They want tohave complexity around how they look for finance on their cars. They want all that sort of taken away. They don't wanna have to turn up tio a car showroom and then go through the same conversation that live with salesperson that they've just gone through online. They want that journey to be seamless, so there's some challenges that the industry facing trying to do that where we're trying to help our retailers, providing those services that customers want. So to be able to understand what the part ex valuation is on their car before they turned up to the dealership and know that it's going to get honored because they've got to trust in it so they can understand what, what making spend on a monthly faith on what cars are available. So we're trying to change what we provide to our consumers on also to support our retailers. Manage that changes well, >> Russell thinks a really great point. You make way. No many industries, and especially your industry, is changing really fast. So what are those stresses and strains mean to the infrastructure team in Oak and maybe talk a little bit about the relationship of kind of business? Tow it how that's changed in the last few years. >> So probably over the last ten years, it has always been seen as the sort of the blocker in terms of making sure that new products and features become become available quickly on our role is really to make sure that we're providing the infrastructure at the right time for people so that they can basically just dial it in when they need it. So if they want to release a new application, they don't need to come and speak to somebody in ops to stop provisional server. They just create a pipeline, deploy their application and then the service provisioned at the same time. On we do things like checking for a Wasp Bonham abilities at the same time and making sure that the application and the infrastructure is working hand in hand. So we've taken a lot of that dependency away from people, sort of with handoff points and everything. >> You're a business that has obviously transformed over the years. I think you said you started in the sixties seventies seventies is a publisher basically, paper printing presses and the like. Nineteen ninety six is when you went online. Is that right? So that early days pretty much of the Internet. So the heart, uh, and so you've proven that you could transform forward thinking. I'm wondering what the conversation might be like inside the company about things like autonomous vehicles. Is there a day that comes where owning your own vehicle is the exception rather than the norm? What implications that might have for your business. It's very hard to predict, obviously, But are you having those kind of conversations? You have other lines of business that you're launching toe >> say you're absolutely right. Those those things are area of concern on wave people, constantly looking at new and emerging changes in threats across the whole industry. On DH, they are absolutely looking at how that might impact our business. What we're actually seeing, though, through research that we've done is people still aspire to own car. So car ownership is still something that people want to want to look at with regards to the second part of your question. We are ultimately focus, that is, that's where we are. We don't operate outside of the UK and Ireland. We absolutely focus on our core on making sure that the services that we offer around that really support our customers need, whether that be consumer or retailer. >> Well, it's interesting that the auto industry really has it been wildly disrupted. I mean, you certainly see Tesla and people talk about autonomous vehicles, but still, the big car makers, they're still doing quite well. They dominate the market so and so it's going to take some time, you know, and there's some skeptics out there, but it's very interesting to see how you guys evolve, what other opportunities you go after. I want to ask you. So Google next is coming to tow London in November. How important is it for you? As somebody is based in the UK tohave, Google have local events like that? I mean obviously a traveling a far distance to come to this event. How important is that to you as a customer? >> It's important for us to be able Teo, get more people involved in the conversation. There's obviously a cost on time effort in terms of coming out tio something here. But it's in The scale of this is enormous in comparison to what we see in the UK, but it just means that having that presence in the U. K. Means that we can just get more of our engineers in front of the right people tohave a better conversation, understand more about what's coming and how we might be able to use that within our business >> things that so you just sort of near early on in your cloud journey. But knowing what you know, and you get it early on, I think you might do differently if you had a mulligan, you want to do over again our advice you give to your colleagues and piers. >> So I think the big thing that we found is modest modernizing applications Before you start moving them into the cloud, I think there is a tendency, Probably way we're in the in the cloud, probably about nine years ten years ago and we bought those workloads back on prime. And the reason why we did that is because we didn't treat them differently way manage those instances in the same way that we managed on prime, which is completely do a wrong way to do it, in my opinion. So we needed to change our mind set in terms of how we manage the infrastructure. You need to make sure that you re architect your applications, that you are taking advantage off the features and functionalities things like auto scaling, that you plan for failure. All those things that you typically control on Prem. You have to think about differently in the clouds. >> We will talk about this a lots to changing, the operator >> said that the long pole in the tent is, you know, modernized those applications. Any change? Migrations is really tough. So but do you have a time for him? How long would take you to get to that? All in that you're planning on >> eighteen months, Cesar, that's >> not just a lift, Did Shift >> S O. That is a modernization. But the approach that we've taken and is to try and give the people the confidence and courage really to go at it is we've picked ofsome easier applications. So this journey about being cloud native, we started six or seven years ago, and we've started getting people building their applications on our private cloud. And those ones have been really easy to move on to the public cloud and some of the applications that I've been a little bit trickier that I've been on our short traditional virtual ization platform. We're trying to pick those off in parallel, so you do one that's really easier one that's a bit harder. So you give people confidence and then you're trying to solve some tricky problems alongside it, and I think that just incrementally gives you more confidence that you're moving in the right direction. >> Right straight. Just like skiing on the then the blacks. And they go into the greens and they're making your moves. >> Just just a little bit. A little bit harder each time you got it, but yeah. >> Russell, thanks so much for coming in. The queue was great. Thank you very much. Okay. Thank you for watching. We'll be right back from Google next in San Francisco.

>> Live from San Francisco. It's the cube covering IBM thing twenty nineteen brought to you by IBM. >> Welcome back to the Cube here in Mosconi North at IBM. Think twenty nineteen. I'm stupid. And my CLO host for the segment is Day Volante. We have four days, a water wall. Coverage of this big show happened. Welcome back to the program. Jason McGee, who is an IBM fellow, and he's the vice president. CTO of Cloud Platform at IBM. Jason, Great to see a >> guy to have fair. >> All right, So, Jason, we spoke with you at Que Con Way. We're saying it's a slightly different audience. A little bit bigger here. Not as many hoodies and jeans and T shirts a little bit more of a business crowd were still talking about clouds. So let's talk about your kind of your role here at the show. What's gonna keep you busy all week? >> S o? I mean, obviously, cloud is a huge part of what's going on. I think talking a lot about both public and private, about hybrid and some are multi called management capabilities. You know, my role as the leader called Platform. I'm talking a lot about platform as a service and communities and containers in the studio and kind of all the new technologies that people are using to help build the next generation of applications. >> All right, so we've had a few interviews today already talk about some of the multi cloud pieces. We had Sandberg on alien talk about eternity. So first you're gonna help correct the things that he got >> anything. Gang >> and service measures have been a really hot conversation the last year or so SDO envoy and the like t talk to us about where IBM fits into this discussion of service meshes. >> Yeah, so you know, I think >> we've been on this kind of journey as an industry of last year's to build anew at platform on DH service meshes kind of fit the part of the problem, which is, How does everything talk to each other and how to actually control that and get visibility into it? You know, IBM has had a founding role in that project. My team at IBM and Google got together with the guys, a lift to create it. Theo, what I'm most excited about, I think a twenty nineteen is that's that technology is really transitioning into something people are using in production and their applications. It's becoming more of kind of the default stack that people are using Really helping them do security invisibility control over their applications? >> Yeah. What? One thing that I heard just from the community and wonder if you could tell me is, you know, is dio itself. The governance model is still not fully into CNC s. Yeah, I heard a little bit, hasn't he? On some envoy? Of course. Out there in the like. So, you know, where are we? What needs to happen to kind of >> move forward? Yeah, you're right. So we're not there quite yet. We're pushing hard to make that happen. Certainly. From an IBM perspective, we absolutely believe that CNC F is the right home for Osteo as you mentioned some of the pieces like Envoy or they're ready. You know, C N c f has done such a tremendous job over the last eighteen months. Really rallying all the core technologies that make up this new coordinate A platform that we're building on costo is no out there's one. Oh, it's been sure people are using it. You know, that last step needs to happen to get into the community. >> So I have to ask you So things move so fast in this world, you go back to the open stack days, and that was going to change the world. And then Dakar Containers. And then Cooper netease, usto I can't help but thinking, Okay, This isn't the end of the line. What's Jason? What's the underlying trend here that's going on in the coding world? Yeah, sure. I'll put it in, maybe in >> my own lens. Given my history, you nominal WebSphere app server guy. You know that in the first half of my career I built that Andi, >> I think the fundamental >> problem solving is actually exactly the same. It's like, how do you build a platform that's app developers focus on building their APS, and I'll focus on all the plumbing and the infrastructure for running those aps. We did that twenty years ago in Java with APP servers, and we're doing it now with cloud, and we're doing it on top of containers. Things like usto like, while they're important in their own right there really actually Mohr important because they're just part of this bigger puzzle that we're putting together. And I think for the average suffer developer, they shouldn't really have to care about. What part of this deal will part is is Cuban eighties. And which part is K native like all that needs to come together into a single platform that they can use to build their APS and run them security. Right? And and I think it's Seo is just recognizing that next piece. You know, I think we've all agreed on containers and communities. We all talk about it all the time, and it's tio Is that next layer I catalyze securing >> control things. Yeah. So you teed it up nicely because we want out. Developers just be able to worry about the application. So you mentioned K native. The whole server list trend is one where you know the idea, of course, is I shouldn't have to worry about the infrastructure layer it just be taking care of me. We've talked about it for pass for a number of years. There are various ways to do it. So at, uh, Cube Colin and we've been looking for about the last year. Now you know, Where does you No, Crew, Burnett, ease and surveillance. How do they fit together? And K Native looks to be a pieces. Toe bridge. Some of those barrels? Absolutely. Where are we and what? What? What's? What's IBM doing there? >> So I think >> you rightly say that they should fit together like they're all part of this continuum of how developers build APS. And, you know, if you look at server, less applications, you know, there's the servos to mention I'm personally not a big service terminology fan. I think they're Maura about event oriented computing. And how do you have a good model for event oriented systems today? With Cuba Netease, anise Teo, I think we've built the base platform, I think, with a native what we're doing is bringing server lists and also just kind of twelve factor applications into the fold in a more formal way on when we get all those pieces together and we integrate them. I think then developers really unleashed to just build their application, whatever way it makes the most sense for what they're doing. And some things like server lists of Anna Marie. And it's going to be easier. And some problems. Straight containers will be an easier way to do >> it. You know, you say you don't like survivalists you like event better a function. So so explain that to the audience, like Why? Why should we care? And why is that different? How is that different? Yeah, I think, for >> a couple things. First off, the idea of server lists applies much more broadly than just what we think of this kind of function based program. You know, like any system that does a good job of managing and masking the infrastructure below me, you could consider a surveillance system, right? So when you just say server Lis, it's kind of like secondhand for functions. I'd rather we just kind of say, functions because that's actually a different programming model where you kind of trigger off of events and you write a functional piece of code and the system takes care of those details. You could argue that caught foundries, a server list system in the sense that you just as a developer anyway, you just see if push your code and it just runs and its scales and it does whatever you need, right? So part of my mission, you know, part of what I look at a lot is how do we bring all these things together in a way that is easy for the developer to stay focused. It steals a great example. You know, one of things were announcing this week is managed osteo support as part of our community service. What does that really mean? It means the developer can use the capability Viste without worrying about How do I install in Rennes D'oh, which they don't really care about? They just really care about how they get value out of its capability. >> Yeah, that's one of the things that having watched all these crew Benetti system and the like is how many companies really need to understand how to build this and run that because can I just get it delivered to me as a service? And therefore that you know that whole you know what I want out of cloud? I want a simple model to be able to consume, Not necessarily. I want to build the stuff that's important to me and not the rest of you. >> And I think if you look at the industry, there's really, I think, kind of two dominant consumption models that have actually emerged for people really using these things, there's public cloud platforms you're delivering things as a service. And then there's kind of platform software stacks like open shifts like I've been called private, which take all of these pieces and bring them together. And I think for most developers, they'll consume in one of those two ways because they don't really want the task of how to assemble all these pieces together. >> Tio, go back to the service piece like what? One distinction I heard made is okay. If I can really scale it down to zero, if I don't need to make it, then that can be serve a list. But there there's alternatives coming out there like what K native has. If I want to run this in my own environment, it's not turbulence because I do need toe. It might be functions, but I need to manage this environment. The infrastructure is my responsibility, not some >> service provider, right? And I think if you'll get server list to me, I was personally, I always think of it in kind of two scenarios. There's like surveillance as ah program remodel in a technology and surveillance as a business model, right? As a consumption model for payment. I think this programming model parts applicable in lots of cases, including private clouds. And in Custer, the business model parties, I think, frankly, unique to public. I'll thing that says I can just pay for the milliseconds of CPU, Compute that amusing and nothing more. >> That's a good thing for consumers. For >> the consumer, it's actually good thing for cloud providers because it gives us a way Tio reuse our infrastructure and creative ways, Right? But I think first and foremost, we have to get Mohr adoption of it as a programming model that developers used to build their applications and do it combined with other things. Because I think most realistic APs aren't gonna all be cirrhosis or all B Cooper nineties. They're going to be something. >> Yeah, right. It's like everything else. It's it's you know, what percent into the applications? Will this takeover? We had this discussion with virtual ization. We've been having this discussion with cloud and certain list, of course, is is pretty early in that environment. K native did I hear is there's some announcement this week that IBM >> so Soak a native, obviously is a project is kind of much earlier in its maturation and something like Castillo is. But we're making that available as part of our Republican private cards as well, Really? So people can get started with the ideas of K native. They can have an easy way to get that environment stood up, and they can start building those applications on DSO. That's now something that, you know, we're kind of bringing out as we work in the community to actually mature the project itself. >> Excellent. One of the things everybody's, of course, keeping an eye on. I saw Arvin Christian talking about the clouds. Tragedy is how red hat fits into all this. So we know you can't talk about kind of post acquisition. But red hats involved in K native. They're involved in a lot of the >> services and developers you gotta be exciting for. Yeah, >> it is. And obviously, like, Look, we've been partners for many years, you know, in on the open source side of things. We've worked closely with Red Hat for a long time. We actually view the world in very similar ways. You know, like you said, we're working on a native together. We've been working on Open West Feather. We obviously work in Cuban eighties together. So personally, I'm pretty excited about them coming in IBM. Assuming that acquisition goes through, they, you know, they fit into our strategy really well. And I think we'll just kind of enhance what we've all been working to build. >> All right, Jason, what else? What's looking? You talk about the maturity of these solutions, give us, um, guide post for the people watching the industry that we should be looking at as twenty nineteen rolls through >> us. So I think there's a >> couple things that, you know, I think this unified application platform notion that we've been kind of touching on here, I think will really come into its own in twenty nineteen. And and I would really love to see people kind of embraced that idea that we don't need. Three container stacks were not tryingto build these seven things. You know, one of things I'm kind of excited about with a native is by bringing server lists and twelve factor into Cuba Netease. It allows each of those frameworks to be kind of the best they can be at their part of the problem space and not solved unrelated problems. You know, I looked at the kind of server less versus coop camps, you know, the purest. And both think all problems will be solved in their camp. Which means they tried to solve all problems. Like, how do I do state full systems and server, Wes. And how do I bring in storage and solve all these things that maybe containers is better at. So I think this unification that I see happening will allow us to have really high efficiency, twelve factor and surveillance in the context of Koob and will change how people are able to use these platforms. I think twenty nineteen is really about adoption of all of this stuff. You know, we still are really early, frankly, in the kind of container adoption landscape, and I think most people in the broader industry or just kind of getting their feet wet they all agree that they're all trying, but they're just starting, and he knows a lot of interesting work. >> Jason, are there any anything that air holding people back? Anything that you You know what? What do you see is some of the things that might help accelerate some of this adoption? >> Yeah, I think one of the things that's >> holding people back is just the diversity of options that exists in the cognitive space means you guys have all probably rising like the C in C F landscape chart. I've never seen so many icons on something in my life. That's really frightening for the average enterprise. To look at a picture like that and go like which of these things are going to be useful, which are going to exist in a year like how Doe, I bet, make that sort >> of those things. So I think that's actually >> help people back a lot. I think that kind of agreement around communities that happened in the last eighteen months or so was really liberating, for a lot of people have helped them kind of move forward there. I think if we can all agree on a few more pieces around this deal, reckon native like it'll really help kind of unlock people and get them trying actually doing it. And I don't think it's anything more than picking a project and starting. I think a lot of enterprises over analyze everything, and they just need to pick something and go and learn. And they'll >> so pick some narrow use case pick, pick an app, pick >> a use case and go do it right and you'll learn and you'll figure out how it works for you. And then you do the second and the fourth in the tenth. And before you know it, you're on your way. That's what we did at IBM ourselves, and you know, now we're running our whole entire public out on top of communities. >> Jason and any any warnings from that kind of experience that you trade to users? A CZ. They looked forward. >> Yeah, we had a >> lot of learnings from music. One is we could run a heck of a lot more diverse work less than we thought when we started. You know, we're running databases where any data warehouses, running machine learning. We're running Blockchain. We're running every kind of application you didn't think could ever work on containers on containers s so one of the lessons Wass. It's much more flexible than you think. It isthe right. The >> other thing is you >> really have to rethink everything. Like the way you do compliance, the way you do security, the way you monitor the system. Like all of those things I need to change because the underlying kind of container system enables you to solve them in such a powerful way. And so if you go into it just thinking, Oh, I'm just going to change this one part of how I do aps and the rest will change. I think you'll find in a year that you're changing the whole operating model around your environment. >> Well, Jason, rethink everything we're here at IBM. Thing up twenty nineteen. Thinks is always for catching up with Thanks for everything going on for David. Want a, um, stew? Minutemen got three more days of live coverage here for Mosconi North. If you hear, stop by and say hi or reach out to us on the interwebs. Thanks so much for watching the cues.

>> Live from Seattle, Washington, it's theCUBE, covering KubeCon and CloudNativeCon, North America 2018. Brought to you by Red Hat, the cloud native computing foundation, and its ecosystem partners. >> Hello and welcome back to theCUBE's live coverage day three here, theCUBE covering KubeCon and CloudNativeCon 2018 in Seattle. I'm John Furrier, with Stu Miniman, and Justin Warren here to break down the action. Justin Warren, as you know, is Guest Analyst for us at many events, Chief Analyst at PivotNine, coming all back over here again, to break it down. So we're going to dissect what's going on here at KubeCon, CloudNativeCon. This is, some say, me, the last stand to stop Amazon. Justin, good to see you. >> Good to see you as well, man. Stu, my first question is, as the show winds down, day three, a lot of people have left, all the big execs are gone, it's kind of last day, people coming together, party was last night, so we kind of see all the action, we kind of fished this pond dry, in theCUBE here, the last couple of days. The themes are starting to emerge. What are you seeing, what's your thoughts? >> Yeah, I mean, first of all, John, 8,000 people, this is, you know, geeks that are really excited, and I mean that in the best of ways, of course. There's actually, there were people here before the show started, doing lightning talks and full day sessions. Tomorrow, there's an operative session that another 250 or 300 people will be doing Friday, so, you know, and people want to just suck the marrow out of the bone that is everything going on here, just get every ounce of knowledge here, and they are deep into this session, so, this is a great community. The question I want to ask you guys is you were at Amazon re:Invent two weeks ago. We've watched that show. I want the compare and contrast of this ecosystem and show, not just compare it to like, say, open stack, which we've been teasing apart all week, and I think there are some things we need to worry about, but a lot of good differences. But compare against the big one in the room, which is Amazon, and a big difference is Amazon is here, and they have a seat at the table, because they have to, and customers will force them there, but you know, should this worry Amazon, and how does this ecosystem compare with the Amazon ecosystem. The big thing for me is, I understand how people make money in the ecosystem of Amazon. I'm still trying to figure that out here. >> Yeah, eh, it is a different ecosystem. It does have a bit of a vibe of it could be the new re:Invent. We've had conversations over the last couple of days about-- >> Or is this the independent cloud, >> Exactly. >> You know, open ecosystem. >> It is the independent show that we've been waiting for, that we've wanted since COMDEX and Interop kind of went away, and it's all been vendor shows, and now we have an independent show where all the vendors can come and have kind of a neutral meeting place, and we can all gather together and have some common ground, which is like, that's what Kubernetes is. I've been saying over the last couple of days, Kubernetes is like the ethernet of cloud, so it's something which is an agreed standard and we can all collaborate on, and then, you never bet against ethernet. So know you can build all these other things on top of that platform, yeah. >> Just a quick note on that, right, that's Interop, and networking was at the core of that. It was basically everybody, oh, it's the chance of if we give true interoperability, maybe we can do multi-vendor and it won't all be Cisco, who dominated that market. Amazon's the same. >> Stu, this is to me, ethernet's a great example. I say TCPIP as well. Both are enabling technologies that are standardized, or actually started as de facto standards. They weren't necessarily bona fide standards. They emerged when people rallied around them. Those de facto standards, emerge and become a catalyst point for people to build on top of and around. Remember, there's still a lower level below the stack on ethernet. So you had, you know, physical data link layer in the OSI model, the grandfather of all stacks. That really changed, I think, 20 years of growth and innovation. I think Kubernetes is, exactly right, Justin, it's exactly your point. I see that as well, that it's not so much Kubernetes is going to be the be all end all. It's what it enables, and I think the innovations on top of Kubernetes, and underneath Kubernetes, take the holy trinity, I've been saying this on theCUBE now for the past year, the holy trinity of infrastructure and IT is storage compute networking, and those things are now being repurposed in a way that is highly scalable, dynamic, and resourceful for a lot of things. AI is a great example, everyone talks about AI, but storage policy, the knobs in Kubernetes can manage, and Google saying the guys of Kubernetes. That's one of the most underutilized aspects of Kubernetes, is the networking guys managing the knobs from below, and then app guys with servers messing maybe on the top. This is just an absolute growth engine, and the comparison to Amazon is similar, because Andy Jassy talks about builders, the right tool for the job. This is essentially the same mantra. I mean, this is tools, platforms. >> It's very similar, but with one very important difference, and around the money side of things. You don't have this massive behemoth which is going to come in, and one year you're on the keynote, and the next year we just announced a product, which completely killed your business. It's open source. That's not really going to happen. So you've got that common core of things, where there's no real competitive advantage on this stuff. So that's, you know, Linux, where's the competitive advantage on a kernel? There isn't one. So open source makes great sense for that kind of core of things that you then build upon, and then all the money is in all the innovation, all the value add that goes on top of that, and that makes a huge amount of sense to have an open source show for that. >> And I think, Stu, one of the things that we always talk about, networking in cloud, I think the concept of cloud is going to be old hat. You heard it here first on theCUBE. Because cloud is Amazon, cloud is a set of resources. When we start thinking about IoT at the edge, when you talk about moving compute to the edge, you're going to start to see mesh networks, peer to peer, and add a new kind of platform configurations that isn't necessarily cloud. It's a new thing. It's a platform, open platform, and there's going to be some incentives that are going to be designed for startups, that's economically beneficial to the new kinds of things, versus the economic incentives that Amazon might not have, to do things. So I think we're going to see emergence of new stuff. I would still say that cloud is a state of mind, it's not a location. And we here, it's CloudNativeCon. It's not just KubeCon. It's about doing things in a cloud native way, and that, like you say, it doesn't matter where it is or how it communicates together, but it's the way you operate it, it's the way it actually works in practice. It's not so much of, oh, we're going to build it here and we're going to put it in that cloud, or that cloud, or that cloud. >> And I think we've had some real clarity as to what that future of multi cloud looks like, 'cause it's not one massive cloud everywhere, it's not, oh, my applications spanning all over the place. It's we're working to solve that really tough problem of distributed architectures, and giving us ways that I shouldn't have to think about where I am spinning that up, or if I need to change vendor, not necessarily portability, you still do have some lock in, because Kubernetes is not the full stack, it's a piece of the overall platform, and while there's 75 different versions here that are all compliant, I should be able to move between them, but the devil's in the details, and there's lots of stuff that goes on top. >> Let's talk about multi cloud for a second. 'Cause you mentioned COMDEX, you talked about ethernet. At that time, during those big revolutions, the word multi-vendor was a big buzz word. Multi-vendor was like the basis of COMDEX. We all got to play together. Multi-vendor meant choice. Today, multi cloud is just a modern version of multi-vendor. >> Exactly, it's multi-vendor, and that's what enterprises want. Enterprises are a bit wary now. We hear lots of conversation about lock in, and that comes up a lot, and it's a real thing. Enterprises are concerned, they don't want to bet on one company, and then find out that actually, it's technology, it changes, things need to be moved around. We don't want to wake up in five, six years, and then suddenly find, oh my god, I can't change anything because I'm locked into this one vendor. >> So, Justin, they say they want multi-vendor. When it came to networking, I spent years working on interoperability, and plug tests, and all these things, and at the end of the day, it was way better to get my standards plus with a single vendor than it was to try to loop them together, and then, oh, when I changed something, so hopefully the difference here is actually, we have loosely coupled services, we have APIs, so can we actually do multi-vendor, multi-cloud that doesn't stress out my team, and have, every time I want to make a change, or they make a change, it moves. The new cloud world should be, things change, you know, it changes upstream, and downstream, I get to use them. So, once again, we talk about the shiny nirvana of, oh, you know, it's serverless, and the old trinity of computer storage. I don't even need to worry about that, 'cause it'll just work, but wait, if something goes wrong, I've been talking to a bunch of vendors here, that actually, how do I get observability, and manageability, to be able to drill down, because things could still go wrong. >> Well, you heard Bloomberg, we had an end user come on, it's a very interesting point, and Dan Khan, from the executive director, well, Bloomberg's kind of a different case, but look at what Bloomberg does. The guy said to us, "I actually don't want to buy "these products and services. "I just want to pay them money "to be available to support me "when I need support." 'Cause Bloomberg has fully integrated all their support internally. I think that's a trend that we're going to see in the enterprise, where CIOs start building teams, real software chops. It might not be as big as Bloomberg, but the notion of, we're going to run our own stuff. We'll use management services where appropriate, but we're going to have a core software build strategy, and I can't wait. An SLA of four hour response time. I need like, minutes. >> And that's how, I think, where we don't have the answers yet. There are still a lot of questions that enterprises are trying to work out about how do I actually do that. So you mentioned Bloomberg, and I interviewed them a few months ago, wrote something in Forbes about them. They are a special case in that they have chosen that we're going to invest in this technology so that we have people on staff, in our company, who understand Kubernetes. Now, that's not a choice that every enterprise is going to make, but they decided that actually, this technology, this software is so important to our business, to where we get all the value for our business that we need to invest in that technology. And I think a lot of enterprises are realizing that, actually, outsourcing everything to one vendor, and then giving all of your innovation engine to someone else, and they're realizing that was a mistake. Now, they're trying to figure out, okay, what do we bring in house, what do we do ourselves, what do we get vendors to do, which technologies do we use for what particular value creation, and that complexity, that decision making process, that's what we haven't quite worked out yet, and that's where I think there's a lot of value in the ecosystem, with service providers who can provide advice on here is how you should do it, based on what you need to do. >> That's a great point. Stu, I want you to comment on that. Let's refine this for a second, 'cause the people who actually spend the money, or the people re-imagining IT infrastructure, IT applications. The CIO, I've interviewed the VP of Advanced Technology at Proctor and Gamble, and he told me, when he came in, he came from Coca Cola, he's been an old IT guy, he says, look, we outsourced everything to the point where we're anemic. We got a couple of storage guys, they're pushing buttons, they're jumping on, calling the vendors, they outsource everything. He says they had no ability to create a competitive advantage for the business, and what they moved quickly to was to bring talent in to be builders, to be in house. So now you have that trend happening in the modern CIO, CXO kind of roles. Now you have to say, okay, I got teams here. How do I get the investments deployed, how do I go to this ecosystem here with all these tools, all these capabilities, how do I invest, how do I build out. >> Look, I think Kelsey Hightower had a great point when we interviewed him this week. It is a huge opportunity for managed services, because like we talked about, the Amazon, or even the ecosystem, how do I keep up with all of this, and the answer is, you don't. You need to be able to have people, whether it's system integrators, or partners that are going to help that. You know, look, Amazon gets criticized for not being deeper in open source. Well, they use a lot of open source and they deliver those services, and they make it easy. Frictionless is something we talked about for many years as being the thing. The enterprise wants to be able to spend money and just go do it, because they don't have a team to pitch these. Even somebody like Bloomberg, or some of these really big companies I love, talking, you've got Apple, and Nordstrom, and some really interesting, oh, by the way, and they're all hiring. Whether or not they're actually using Kubernetes, they cannot confirm or deny, but you know, we know how that goes. >> Hold on, first, let's unpack the end user piece here, okay? Amazon is pushing 5,000 reference-able customers. Okay, it's not about the Amazon question. End users here, how many reference-able customers are here? What are they actually, Uber's here, they're hiring. They might have some Kubernetes stuff in the background. Sure, they probably do. But actually, what does the end user adoption really look like? I mean... >> It's still early, but again, a difference between this show and Amazon re:Invent. How many end customers have a booth at re:Invent? Compared to here, where we have people, end customers who are here mostly to try to hire talent. They have booths. >> Kudos to the CNCF. They've got 80 end users participating. There are a lot of users here. This is not the vendor fest that we see at some shows when they get big. I hear they're not seeking the vendors. The vendors that I talked to were happy because they are the users here, and they're excited. Before we go, John, there's a couple kinks in the armors and things we need to worry about. The two, if I look at service meshes, and I look at serverless as a huge threat. One of the things I wanted to look at coming in was I'd heard a lot of talk about Knative, and I think Knative is great, but it is not, you know, Lambda is the defacto standard, just like S3 was before. Lambda is this, and Knative has absolutely nothing to do with Lambda and does not connect with it. It is the difference between serverless and functions, and so, all the AWS functions and all the Azure functions have nothing to do with Knative. For the people that looked at OpenWhisk and all these other options, Knative seems a good way to pull, they've done a re-spin of what's happening there, and it's moving things down the line. Once again, as Kelsey said, if we look at serverless as a spectrum, which many of the hardcore serverless people will debate and argue, and be like, that's not real, serverless, well, just like we said, there is only one real cloud, and it was Amazon. We know that's not the case. It will be a spectrum, we want to meet customers where they are. So, Knative, good news, but the elephant in the room is that AWS and Azure are where all of the serverless really happens, and therefore, there is a big air gap between them. Justin, service mesh is something I know you've been looking at. Give it to us the good, bad, and the ugly. >> Service mesh is really, really early. So, we're at that part where there's a diversity of innovation going on. There's about 12, or at least 12 different companies here at the show, who are all doing something with service mesh. They're all trying to sell you a different solution. This is what happens with technology. A new technology gets created, and we have this flurry of all these startups, who are all trying different things. And this is the destructive force of capitalism. Not all of them are going to succeed, but we have to have them all out there in the market, because at the moment, it's too early to figure out, okay, well, it's definitely going to be that one. If we knew that one, then I'd be putting all of my money behind that one company today. >> Last year, Justin, all the talk was about SDO. I've heard a lot of talk about SDO, but it hasn't all been good. >> No, that's the thing. So we've had a year now, and last year was definitely, hey, SDO is like, the service mesh. Like, not so much. Envoy seems to be the common ground that people are actively using. That's what most people are building on top of. So it looks like Envoy's going to be that underlayer of everything else. But in terms of how you actually use service mesh, it's still very early, and people are trying to figure out how to do I use this quite complex technology in practice? And as people use it more, as we get more adoption, then we'll start to see that one or two of the methods and the approaches will win out over all of the others, and that's where we can expect to see, well, I have an anointed winner. That will then win out, because it's useful, because it's functional, because end users want to do it that way. >> And Envoy, by the way, had traction. They had a sold out EnvoyCon. On the first day, 350 people, Lyft is driving that, and they're just heads down, solving problems. I think that seems to be the formula for some of the successful products, where you take away all the window dressing and the hype. It comes down to who's solving what problems. >> And that's the thing with open source. You can't just throw a whole bunch of marketing dollars at it to make it succeed. If end users don't like the code, and they don't use it, then it won't work. >> John, I want you to give us the word on the open source business model. We watched in the last year, Red Hat bought CoreOS for 250 million, then they were acquired by IBM for 34 billion, pending final, and all that stuff and everything, and then, reading through the VMware, SCC filing $550 million for Heptio. You know, big, big dollars, so, is open source just getting a lot of customers, and they get acquired by the big guys? What's the take? >> I think it's interesting. First of all, Red Hat might not like what I'm about to say, but I'll just say it. I think there was a steal with CoreOS. If you look at what Heptio got for valuation, CoreOS was an absolute steal. The team was phenomenal, they were doing some amazing work. At that time of the acquisition, the debate of how to make money dominated versus just getting behind the technology, and I think CoreOS was a fantastic team, and they had the right tracking. You can see what's happening now with now part of the Red Hat. So, Red Hat got a massive lift on that, so I think, kudos to Red Hat for taking that up the table at that time. Great acquisition, I think that helped them propel, and now show that to IBM that there's real value there. Now, I think open source as a business model is interesting because it's changing, right? You now have a new generation of builders and developers coming in. Open source has to evolve, and I think the CNCF I think is a cutting edge experiment or Petri dish of how to stay true to open source principles, and still nurture and enable a downstream impact for the commercialization. I think it's an opportunity, but it's also one of their biggest challenges, because if this is COMDEX, COMDEX is an open source. It's hawking wares, right? So it's a different business model. So, this is going to be a very interesting test in the industry to see how the current open source momentum, which is looking really strong right now, how that can interplay with commercialization, because certainly, the money's there, the value's there, and if we can get these value spots identified, the white spaces for startups, and let the big guys also play as well, it's going to be a very interesting landscape, it's certainly dynamic. I don't have the answers, but my gut's telling me that a whole new level of sets of services and platforms are going to be composed around these services, and I think it's all going to be driven by open source, that's clear. How it shapes out, valuations and the talent buys, the momentum, market buy, we'll be watching, I don't know. >> Yeah, it's exciting times. We're here at the beginnings of what I hope is going to be this massive new ecosystem, and we get to watch it grow, we get to watch it change. It's a great place to be. >> All I can say, Stu, is I wish I was 25 years old again, right now, because for young entrepreneurs, and young tech folks, this is probably one of the most exciting times, because you have real computer science, and dormant computer science, now re-energized with cloud computing scale. It's just like-- >> John, they don't appreciate what they had, you know. They don't know what it was like to have a computer that wasn't actually connected to things, let alone what we had. >> I used to build my own graphics libraries, I used to walk to school in bare feet in the snow. It's so hard. It's so easy now. >> Creating ones and zeroes-- >> Where's my token ring? >> Creating ones and zeroes by banging rocks together. >> It's so easy now. You guys got it made. You have no idea. Great stuff, Stu, this is great analysis, and I think, again, KubeCon is the beginning, with Cloud Native, this is just a small signal, I think. I think there's going to be a COMDEX moment soon, unless this thing just blows up, which I don't think is going to happen. >> I mean, look, last thing, John, I want to big thank to the Linux Foundation, CNCF, for working with us. We've been neighbors in the early days, great partnership, this community. They've got a great media section. All of friends over here, that are creating a lot of con, working really hard. The amount of work that goes through, and as we had the people from CNCF talking. They've got a core team, but it's people that volunteer, and we were a community too, and all our sponsors, John. >> Yeah, thanks to the community, and again, one more final point is that, this market, Justin, as you know, we all cover it, is in a learning mode. There's a lot of education oriented stuff that people are interested in. You've got Alex Williams over at New Stack, DevOps.com, TFiR over there, everyone's up in media out there. There is a thirst for content, there's a thirst for community learning. The sessions are packed. I mean, the hallways are interesting. You see people huddling, and I overhear the conversations. They're not talking about what party to go to, they're talking about how to implement a Kubernetes cluster, so this, really people working on and off the court here, so to speak. So, it's been great coverage. So, day three, breaking it down. I'm John Furrier, Justin Warren, Stu Miniman, back with more coverage, day three, after the short break. (techno music)

>> From Yorktown Heights, New York, it's theCUBE, covering IBM Cloud Analyst Summit, brought to you by IBM. >> Hi, I'm Wikibon's Peter Burris. Welcome back to theCUBE coverage of IBM Innovation Day, here at the Thomas J. Watson Research Center in Yorktown Heights, New York. Great series of conversations, and this next one also is going to be a great conversation, with Jason McGee, who's an IBM Fellow, VP and CTO of Cloud Platform here at IBM. Jason, welcome to theCUBE. >> Thanks for having me. >> So, we've had a lot of great conversations about what does open mean, where is the cloud going, what is the role of developers in this whole thing, but I want to dig a little bit deeper into this kind of core question. The cloud suggests a new model for computing. I would also think that would mean that there's a new model for development on the horizon. >> Yeah, absolutely. >> Can you talk to us a little bit about that? >> Yeah, sure, I mean, I think that's absolutely true. I think one of the core things that people are trying to get out of cloud these days is development velocity, you know. For many years, of course, one of the key pressures in IT has been how do I do stuff more quickly, and that's gone through many iterations over time, but I think cloud today, people are really trying to figure out how to leverage cloud as a platform for speed of development, and the combination of services on cloud, and new development models like microservices, and new technologies like containers are all kind of contributing elements in helping people solve this problem, how do I build stuff more quickly. >> So, with all that new technology, is a new mindset required? Does somebody think about the problem differently, does somebody break the problem down differently? How do you start with that notion of looking at a business requirement or business outcome, and translate it into the technology? We used to just create code. Now we're doing something different. >> Yeah, I think the first thing you have to do is think about how to organize people. You know, software development at the end of the day is a sport amongst people and you have to think about how to break up the problem, and so, like microservices, a lot of us think of microservices as a technology. It's not really a technology, it's really a philosophy about how to attack a problem with a group of people, it's about how to organize, and its fundamental idea is break it into independent parts, and allow a small team of people to not only develop that part but to own it end-to-end, you know, like the old development model was development, test, production, hand it over the wall to operations. The new model is break it into small problems and then have a team own the whole thing end-to-end, and with that new organizational philosophy comes new architectures for apps, new technologies to help you do that, and new platforms to run things on. >> So, as we think about that, that suggests that the approach to software from a licensing standpoint, from what are you buying, what are you installing is also going to change. How do you foresee, and what is IBM preparing customers for in this kind of new world where software is a service coming from a lot of different places as opposed to a license with, you know, 800 million lines of code or eight billion lines of code behind it? >> Yeah, it's interesting. I think these new ideas are enabled by things like cloud. Part of the reason that cloud has enabled this new model to be feasible is because you get, for example, consumption-based pricing. You can use a wide variety of technologies, you can pick the right tool for the job, you can pay for just what you use, and therefore, the old models of static software licensing and big platforms can start to fade away as these small teams are able to kind of pick the right tool for the job, and that wouldn't be possible in a world without like, as a service delivery, and meter pricing, and things like that, because you would have to consolidate to fewer choices and buy bigger chunks of things. >> As you said, microservices is more of a philosophical approach to how you think about software, and it's also predicated on that wonderful notion of REST. A great paper was written a number of years ago on APIs. IBM has kind of an interesting role in the industry, though. IBM has got to bring a whole bunch of customers with highly stateful applications forward into the cloud. Kubernetes, great for stateful. How are we going to address that tension between the stateless world of greenfield applications and the stateful legacy that has to move into this new world? >> Yeah, I'm glad you brought that up. I mean, I think a lot of times new trends emerge and it's easy to ignore the past, but the lesson I've learnt in over 20 years in IT is like, nothing ever goes away, right, and so you have to not only define the future, but you have to figure out how to help people get there. I actually think part of the reason technologies like Kubernetes are so dominant right now is because they actually do a reasonable job at both. You know, Kubernetes and containers are a great platform for the kind of new architectures and for adopting these new methodologies we're talking about, but they can also accommodate the existing apps, and you can move existing apps into these new platforms, and so, that helps give people a path. They can move something they have and then slowly re-factor it, or they can move something they have and build new things around it, and they could do all that with platforms like Kubernetes as an enabler, right? And it's been interesting to watch. Like, at IBM, we obviously make Kubernetes available, both in our public and private clouds, but we're also big users, and we run all of our cloud services on that platform. Stateful databases, AI and machine learning workloads, analytics platforms, stateless web apps, like, the whole lot, we've been able to run on a platform like that. >> Talk to me a little bit about this notion of cloud operating model and how we manage that, because it seems to me as though the user adoption of a lot of these new technologies are going to be facilitated if we can put forward a management platform that uses those technologies to manage those technologies. What's the relationship there between the evolution of management? Is that a leading edge of how we are going to see people adopt some of these technologies? >> It's certainly a very kind of critical component of the story. I mean, if you really believe in the idea that where we want to move to is this kind of microservice model of small teams that run things themselves, then you get into the question of, all right, well, if you have eight people whose job is to run something in production, they need to be able to do that efficiently, right? You can't have complex operational processes, you need a lot of really good tools, it needs to be really easy for them, 'cause you're asking people to have a really vast set of knowledge, and so, it's driving the evolution of management philosophies. You're seeing new technologies, like SDO, for example, emerge, which are allowing like an application person to define policy about security, and access, and networking that normally would've required like a network expert to go to. >> And more, which makes it a very powerful platform. >> Powerful platform, right, but I think it's coming out of this realization that like, if that small team of people ever want to sleep, and when they have to run things, they're going to need tools to help them do that. So it's been interesting to watch that kind of circular evolution of these different domains. >> So, 20 years of experience from web-sphere forward. Let's think about the next five years. Where is the biggest innovation going to happen in software? >> Well, I mean, there's the obvious stuff around the application of AI, but the part that I'm most excited about is I think we've been on an arc over the last 20 years, to make the application the center of IT. You know, historically, infrastructure has been the center of IT. You start a project, you buy a server, you install an operating system, you set up management tools. >> That's been a big asset. >> The center has been the infrastructure and you build your way up. And I think as velocity has become dominant, we've been trying to flip it and say, I'm building an app. Let me focus on the app, and focus on what the app needs, and drive the requirements down, and I don't think we're done yet. I think there's a lot more to do there, but that's the path we're on. I think over the next five years, we'll really get there, where as an app team, I don't really have to think about infrastructure, and I can have the system adapt to the needs of the application. >> Do you foresee a point where the data and the application are increasingly and further broken apart? >> The data and the application? I don't know that they're going to be further broken apart, but I think we'll see more kind of intelligent scheduling and combinations of those things, like there are cases where the data needs to be king, and the application needs to come to the data, and vice versa, and historically, the data world and the app world have been pretty separate, right, and you know, again, if we think teams are going to run their things, then just like they're doing ops and dev, they're going to have to do apps and data, right, and so, there's an opportunity there to bring those worlds closer. I see some of it, but, you know, Kubernetes as an example, as a common operational platform for both kinds of systems, but there's more, for sure. >> So bring it together when it makes the most amount of sense, keep it separate when other people need to use the data. >> Stop assuming you have specialists in every technology, and assume you have a multi-disciplinary team that has to run it all. >> All right, Jason, one more question. February, San Francisco, IBM takes it over with IBM Think. A lot of users, a lot of new questions being raised, a lot of opportunity for learning, a lot of opportunity for networking. What are you hoping to accomplish? What conversations do you want to have at Think? >> Yeah, I'm really excited, I think, to have conversations with clients about how they're actually adapting to this new world. I think sometimes the biggest challenge is not technology, but how organizations assimilate these ideas, and so, I'm excited for the conversations with customers about what problems they're solving, sharing those experiences with each other, and also practitioners. I think we've moved into a world where IT is dominated by the people who actually do the work, by the practitioners, and I really hope to see a lot of them show up at Think in February and share with us what they're doing. >> Jason McGee, IBM Fellow, VP, CTO, Cloud Platform here at IBM. Thanks very much for being on theCUBE. >> Thank you. >> And once again, this is Peter Burris from the Thomas J. Watson Research Center in Yorktown Heights. You've been watching theCUBE. Stay tuned. (techno music)

>> From the Regency Center in San Francisco, it's theCUBE covering Serverlessconf San Francisco 2018 brought to you by SiliconANGLE Media. >> I'm Stu Miniman and you're watching theCUBE's coverage of Serverlessconf 2018 here in San Francisco at the Regency ballroom. I'm happy to welcome back to the program Simon Wardley, who's a researcher with the Leading Edge Forum, I spoke with you last year at Serverless in New York City, and thanks for joining me again here in San Francisco. >> Absolute pleasure, nice to be back. >> Alright, so many things have changed, Simon, we talked off camera and we're not going into it, your wardrobe stays consistent >> Always. >> But, you know, technology tends to change pretty fast these days. >> Mhmm. >> You do a lot of predictions and I'm curious starting out when you think about timelines and predictions, how do you deal with the pace of change, and put things out, I have my CTOs, like well, if I put a 10 year forecast down there, I can be off on some of the twists and curves, and kind of hit closer to the mark. Give us some of your thoughts as to how you look out and think about things when we know it's changing really fast. >> Okay, okay, so there are a number of different comments in there, one about how do you do predictions, one about the speed of change, okay? So I'm going to start off with the fact that one of the things I use is maps. And maps are based on a couple of characteristics. Any map needs an anchor, in the case of the maps of business that I do, that's the user, and often the business, and often regulators. You also need movement and position in a map. So position's relative to the anchor, so a geographical map, if you've got a compass then this piece is north, south, east or west of that. In the sort of maps that I do, it's the value chain which gives you position relative to the user or the business at the top. Movement, in a geographical map you have consistency of movement, so if I go, I don't know, north from England I end up in Scotland, so you have the same thing with a business map, but that evolution is described, sorry, that movement is described by evolution. So what you have is the genesis of novel and new activities custom-build examples, products and rental services, commodity and utility services, and that's driven by supply and demand competition. Now, that evolution axis, in order to create it, you have to abolish time. So one of the problems when you look at a map is there is no easy use of time in a map. You can have a general direction and then you have to use weak signals to get an idea of when something is likely to happen. So for example if I take nuts and bolts, they took 2,000 years to go from genesis to commodity, electricity was 1,400 years from genesis to commodity, utility, computing 80 years. So, there are weak signals that you can use to identify roughly when something is going to transition, particularly between stages like product to a commodity. Product-product substitution very unpredictable, genesis of novel acts, you can usually say when stuff might appear, but not what is going to appear because in that space it's actually what we call the uncharted, the unexplored space. So, one of the problems is time is an extremely difficult thing to predict without the use of weak signals. The second thing is the pace of change. Because what happens is components evolve, and when we see them shift from product to more commodity and utility, we often see a big change in the value chains that that impacts. And you can get multiple components evolving, and they overlap, and so we feel that the pace is very very fast, despite the fact that it actually takes about 30 to 50 years to go from genesis to the point of industrialization, becoming a commodity, and then about 10 to 15 years for that to actually happen. So if you look at something like machine learning, we can start with it back in the '70s, 3D printing 1968, the Battelle Institute, all of this stuff, virtual reality back in the 1960s as well. So the problem is, one, time's very difficult. The only way to effectively manage time is to use weak signals, it's probability. The second thing is the pace of change is confusing because what we're seeing is overlapping points of industrialization like for example cloud, and what's going here with Serverless. That doesn't actually imply that things are rapidly changing because you've actually got this overlapping pattern. Does that make sense? >> Yes, it does actually. >> Perfect. >> Because you think, we have in hindsight we always think that things happen a lot faster but-- >> Yeah. >> it's funny, infrastructure space when I talk to some of the people that I came up with, they were like oh yeah, come on, we did this in mainframe decades ago. and now we're trying again, we're trying again. Things like-- >> Containers, for example, you've got LXE before that, and we had Solaris Zones before that, so it's all sort of like, interconnected together. >> Okay, so tie this into Serverless for us. >> Okay. >> You were a rather big proponent of Platform as a Service, is this a continuation of us trying to get that abstraction of the application or is it something else? What is the map we are on, and, you know, help us connect things like PaaS and Serverless and that space. >> So back in 2005, the company I ran, we mapped out our value chain, and we realized that compute was shifting from product to utility. Now that had a number of impacts. A, that shift from product to utility tends to be exponential, people have inertia due to past practice, you see a co-evolution of practice, around the changing characteristic. It's normally to do with something called MTTR, mean time to recovery changes. And so you see rapid efficiency, rapid speed of development, being able to build new sources, new areas of value. So that happened with infrastructure, and we also knew it was going to happen with platform, which is why we built something called Zymkey, which was a code execution environment, totally stateless, event-driven, utility billing, and billing to the function, and that was basically a shift of the code execution platform from a product, lamp.net stack, to a much more utility form. Now we were way too early, way too early, because the educational barriers to get people into this idea of building with functions, functional program, much more declarative environment, was really different, I mean when Amazon launched EC2 in 2006, that was a big enough shock for everybody else, and now of course, now we're in 2014, Lambda represents that shift, and the timing's much much better. Now the impact of the shift is not only efficiency and speed of development of new things, and being able to explore new sources of value, but also a change of practice, and in the past, change of practice created DevOps, this is likely to create a new type of practice. For us, we've also got inertia to change because of pre-existing systems and governance and ways of working, sunk capital, physical capital, social capital. So it's all perfectly normal. So in terms of being able to predict and far-predict these types of future, well for me, actually, Lambda's my past, because that's where we were. It's just the timing was wrong, and so when it came out, it was like for me, it was like, this is really powerful stuff and the timing is much, and we're seeing it here, it's now really starting to grow. >> Alright, you've poked a little bit at some of the container discussions going on in the industry, you know, I look at the ecosystem here, and of course AWS is the big player, but there's lots of other Serverless out there. There's discussion of Multicloud. >> Yeah. >> How does things like Kubernetes, and there was this new term canative, or cane-native project, that was just announced, and we're all, don't expect that you've dug in too deeply, but, if you look at containers and Kubernetes, and Serverless, do these combine, intersect, fight? How do you see this playing out? >> So when I look at the map, you know, you've got the code execution layer, the framework which has now become more of a utility, and that's what we call platform. The problem is, is people will application to containers, and therefore describe their environments as application-container platforms, and the platform term became really messy, basically meant everything, okay. But if we break it down into code execution, this is what we call frameworks, this is becoming utility, this is where things like Lambda is, underneath that, are all these components like operating systems, and containers, and container management, Kubernetes type systems. So if you now look at the value chain, the focus is on building applications, and those applications need functions, and then lower down the stack are all these other components. And that will tend to become less visible over time. It's a bit like your toaster. I mean, your toaster contains nuts and bolts and all sorts of things, do you care? Have you ever noticed? Have you ever broken one open and had a look? >> Only if something's not working right. >> (laughs) Only if something, maybe, a lot of people these days wouldn't even go that far, they'd just go and buy themselves a new toaster. The point is, what happens is, as layers industrialize, the lower-order systems become much less visible. So, containers, I'm a big fan of containers. I know Solomon and the stuff in Docker, and I take the view that they are an important but invisible subsystem, and the same with container management and things like containers. The focus has got to be on the code execution. Now when you talk about canative, I've go to say I was really excited with Google Next last week, with their announcements like functions going GA, I thought that was really good. >> We've been hoping that it would have happened last year. >> Yeah exactly, I wanted this before, but I'm really pleased they've got functions coming out GA. There was some really interesting stuff around SDO, and there was the GRPC stuff which is, sort of, I think a hidden gem. In terms of the canative stuff, really interesting stuff there in terms of demos, not something I've played with, I'm sort of waiting for them to come out with canative as a service, rather than, you know, having to build your own. I think there was a lot of good and interesting stuff. The only criticism I would have was the emphasis wasn't so much on basically, serverless code execution building, it was too much focused on the lower end systems, but the announcements are good. Have I played with canative? No, I've just gone along and seen it. >> So Simon, the last question I have for you is, we spoke a year ago today, what are you excited about that's matured? What are you still looking for in this space, to really make the kind of vision you've been seeing for a while become reality, and allow serverless to dominate? >> So, when you get a shift from, say, product to utility, you get this co-evolution of practice, this practice is always novel and new. It starts to emerge, and gets better over time. The area that I think we're going to see that practice is the combining of finance and development, and so when you're running your application, and your application consists of many different functions, it's being able to look at the capital flow through your application, because that gives you hints on things like what should I refactor? Refactoring's never really had financial value. By exposing the cost per function and looking at capital flow, it's suddenly does. So, what I'm really interested in is the new management practices, the new tooling around observing capital flow, monitoring, managing capital flow, refactoring around that space and building new business models. And so there's a couple of companies here with a couple of interesting tools, it's not quite there yet, but it's emerging. >> Well, Simon Wardley, really appreciate you. >> Oh, it's a delight! >> Mapping out the space a little bit, to understand where things have been going. >> Absolute pleasure! >> And thank you so much, for watching as always, theCUBE. (upbeat music)

>> (narrator) Live from Copenhagen Denmark, it's theCUBE covering Kubecon and CloudNativeCon Europe 2018. Brought to you by the Cloud Native Computing Foundation and it's ecosystem partners. >> Hello and welcome to theCUBE. Exclusive coverage of Kubecon 2018 here in Europe. The Linux Foundation, theCUBE's coverage. Again, we're covering Kubecon, Cloud Native Conference, part of the CNCF. I'm John Furrier, host this week here in Europe with Lauren Cooney. Lauren, great to see you. >> Thank you. It's great to be here. >> Cloud, CloudNative is hot, obviously the Cloud Native Compute Foundation, CNCF, part of the Linux Foundation, driving really a pretty incredible growth. >> This is tremendous. >> Onboard and the logos, it's just pretty massive growth in microservices. >> It's just, you're seeing so many interesting things that are actually coming to this show. You know, A there's over 4,000 people here I heard. You know the taxi line was 20 people deep this morning to actually get here for the keynote. And I got to say that, you know, some of the technologies that are coming out are just really tremendous. I mean, we've got some great folks that are going to be coming on the show. Lew Tucker from Cisco and then we've got Tyler Jewell whose going to be talking about a new Cloud Native programming language. I think that's pretty interesting. >> And we've got some great influences as well. We're going to get the commentary. But the big story is, we're in Copenhagen Denmark. Sun's shining. It was raining yesterday but again, great European city. Feels like Amsterdam, got the canals. But the growth in Europe is just, it feels like I'm in North America in just terms of the volume. It's not like a satellite show. Normally in Europe, you see kind of the U.S., North America big tent events and then Europe's kind o' like a sidecar, no pun intended event. But no, it's pretty massive. I mean, you're seeing great developer uptake here in Europe. Cloud is hot. Kubernetes is the talk of the show, >> You know, I, >> SDO among other things. >> Exactly, you know, I think, I've been talking to folks around the conference center and so many of them as actually learning this for the first time and bringing it back to their, you know, large banks or some of their employers, you know, huge European companies that are actually looking to adopt this. And I think it's just phenomenal. >> I was chatting with Abby Kearns last night. I told her I'd give her a quick plug here on theCUBE. She's CEO of Cloud Foundry and we were having a chat. She just did a survey as part of the Cloud Foundry Group that found that outside of our bubble in Silicon Valley and certainly in the influencer sphere, most people have heard of Kubernetes, but actually don't know what it is and kind o' where it's going to be applied. It's one of those things where it's really taken the world by storm, certainly in the classic enterprises but application developers are seeing the goodness of what Kubernetes will do when you look at multiple workloads, workload portability, microservices as the growth of applications become cloudified. >> I think it's >> Kubernetes is key. >> It's key and I think the projects that really are inside of the CNCF are obviously super key as well, like Spyfy, who actually detects kind of workloads and types and you know, does that in an automated way. So, you know, the user doesn't have to figure that out anymore. I think those technologies are really the ones that are going to be you know, changing the landscape of platforms, you know, now and to come. >> Yeah. So Dan Kohn's up on stage, Lew Tucker's up on stage talking about multiclouds from Cisco's perspective. Lauren, you're out there on the streets working with some startups and big companies as they start to transform cloud, what do you see as the key themes of the show, what are the notable highlights for you that you see on the agenda and what are some of the things you're looking for this week in Europe? >> Well, I'm definitely looking to find out really what the news here is. You know, we've got some new projects. We've got some new end users. We've got some awards that are handed out. I really want to get to the root of what's new and what's happening. I think that there are some interesting things that are happening around. You know, we know that growth is explosive in this community. I think that, you know, is very clear. What I don't know is, you know, kind of clear to me yet at least, is really how large CNCF has gotten and how it really going to kind o' fit together and how users are going to take advantage of that entire ecosystem because they're just so many partners now and users. How do you actually pull that together in a way that's going to be workable from, you know, the perspective of a platform? >> To me the big story I like here and certainly what's notable is, and worth talking about is the role Google's playing. If you look at this show, you got some Microsoft here with Azure but really Google's at the centerpiece of this. See Red Hat and all the other industry players are here as well. But Google is driving a lot of open source standards. This is the real kind o', I won't say anti-AWS show but it's kind o' like you got Amazon re:Invent and then you got everybody else. And this is, this show represents to me everybody else because there's a real emphasis on multicloud and workload portability again, not getting a lot into one cloud. Google's pretty upfront about that and they're betting on open source to be that lever to get a good position in the cloud game. >> Well it has to be and I think really what's interesting to is AWS did show up here and they had a, you know, I was actually bouncing between some of the trainings that were going on with Fido, one of the projects and also, you know, what was going on with AWS. They call it their awesome day. And there were a lot of folks attending and a lot of folks interested. So I think it's going to be an interesting game here John. >> Well we have Adrian Cockcroft coming on, obviously, he's with AWS. He's leading the open source efforts for Amazon. And again, not to poke at Amazon but, you know, Amazon is so busy and they announce so much at re:Invent, they're so ahead of the game on cloud, cloud scale, just a number of services that Amazon... (techno music) the cloud has had significant impacts. We covered Amazon's earnings last week, again, at 50% increase. The profit that AWS is throwing off is so notable and so impressive that it really is a bellwhether to me on terms of this cloud transformation. And the key is applications. That is the number one focus we're seeing and how that makes the cloud scale an impact. What are you looking for with applications? What's interesting you, what's interested you there with the applications? >> Any applications that are running from public to, and private across that environment but I want to see multi-public cloud environments as well as on, you know, our private environments too. That to me is interesting. >> Well I want to get your thoughts on another topic that we're going to talk about this week and that is the role of the personnel inside the organization for cloud transformations. So for instance, the role of the admin operators out there, or admins and operators. Certainly at Cisco, DevNet Create that we were recently at, the role of the network manager is moving much more cloud oriented program or infrastructure. But you're seeing Google starting to talk about things like automation is good but yet the role of an operator, they call it at NASA a Site and Reliability Engineer, as the key position for cloud, what's your thought on the personnel equation for cloud within an enterprise within large companies. >> Well the SRE is the new hot role to have, right? I think that there is an increase interest in that audience because they are actually the ones that are troubleshooting a lot of this and looking at a lot of what this strategy is and where to take these things. I think that you know, it's also interesting because as people are looking to aspire to different roles, this is one of the ones that has become more established and is kind of shined upon in the developer world right now. And it's going to be interesting to see if that stays that way or if, you know, they're going to be, you know, what's kind of going to happen there. >> Thoughts on microservices in context, SDO service meshes. Again, last Kubecon we talked about SDO, the service mesh piece of it, with the notion of a modern architecture. How is that playing out in your mind? >> I think it's playing out pretty well. Everyone seems to be on the ciscobus. I also think that, you know, when we talk to Lew Tucker for example, I think we really need to ask him where he sees it going and what's going on with Cisco and the ecosystem at large on that. But everyone is playing and playing nice with those guys. >> I'm interested to get the security update. We're going to have some Google folks on. I want to find out what's new with that and also Google Next is coming up in July, their big cloud show. I'm expecting it be that pretty large event. Google is really going all in on cloud. Certainly, the cloud group within Google's got a lot of investment, a lot of enterprise folks. But the security question in Kubernetes is an interesting one. How to deploy, you know, endpoint security or is it an IOT thing? Is it ship set to operating system to application? I mean this is the open question on Kubernetes is security. >> I don't have a good answer for you there. I think that, you know, that is something we definitely need to dig into as a community and as developers. It's something that, you know, I think is was mentioned in the keynote today and I think we got to continue to to poke at that one. >> Awesome. Well we're here kicking off day one of two days of coverage here at CNCFs Kubecon, John Furrier with Lauren Cooney. Back with more live coverage here in Europe in Denmark. We're in Copenhagen for cube coverage at Kubecon 2018 Europe. (techno music)