>>Good morning, brilliant humans. Good afternoon or good evening, depending on your time zone. My name is Savannah Peterson and I'm here live with the Cube. We are at CubeCon in Detroit, Michigan. And joining me is my beautiful co-host, Lisa, how you feeling? Afternoon of day three. >>Afternoon day three. We've had such great conversations. We have's been fantastic. The momentum has just been going like this. I love it. >>Yes. You know, sometimes we feel a little low when we're at the end of a conference. Not today. Don't feel that that way at all, which is very exciting. Just like the guests that we have up for you next. Kind of an unexpected player when we think about technology. However, since every company, one of the themes is every company is trying to be a software company. I love that we're talking to I n G. Joining us today is Ty Evers and Arno vk. Welcome to the show gentlemen. Thank >>You very much. Glad to be you. Thank you. >>Yes, it's wonderful. All the way in from Amsterdam. Probably some of the farthest flying folks here for this adventure. Starting off. I forgot what's going on with the shirts guys. You match very well. Tell, tell everyone. >>Well these are our VR code shirts. VR code is basically the player of our company to get people interested as an IT person in banking. Right? Actually, people don't think banking is a good place to work as an IT professional, but actually this, and we are using the OC went with these nice logos to get it attention. >>I love that. So let's actually, let's just talk about that for a second. Why is it such an exciting role to be working in technology at a company like I N G or traditional bank? >>I N G is a challenging environment. That's how do you make an engineer happy, basically give them a problem to solve. So we have lots and lots of problems to solve. So that makes it challenging. But yeah, also rewarding. And you can say a lot of things about banks and with looking at the IT perspective, we are doing amazing things in I and that's what we talked about. Can >>You, can you tell us any of those amazing things or are they secrets? >>Think we talked about last Tuesday at S shift commons conference. Yeah, so we had two, two presentations I presented with my coho sand on my journey over the last three years. So what has IG done? Basically building a secure container hosting platform. Yeah. How do we live a banking cot with cloud native technology and together with our coho young villa presented actually showed it by demo making life and >>Awesome >>In person. So we were not just presenting, >>It's not all smoke and mirrors. It's >>Not smoke and mirror, which we're not presenting our fufu marketing block now. We actually doing it today. And that's what we wanted to share here. >>Well, and as consumers we expect we can access our banking on any device 24 by seven. I wanna be able to do all my transactions in a way that I know is secure. Obviously security's a huge thing there, but talk about I n G Bank aren't always been around for a very long time. Talk about this financial institution as a software company. Really obviously a lot of challenges to solve, a lot of opportunity. But talk about what it's like working for a history and bank that's really now a tech company. >>Yes. It's been really changing as a bank to a tech company. Yeah. We have a lot of developers and operators and we do deliver offer. We OnPrem, we run in the public. So we have a huge engineers and people around to make our software. Yes. And I am responsible for the i Container Ocean platform and we deliver that the name space as a surface and as a real, real secure environment. So our developers, all our developers in, I can request it, but they only get a name space. Yeah, that's very important there. They >>Have >>Resources and all sort of things. Yeah. And it is, they cannot access it. They can only access it by one wifi. So, >>So Lisa and I were chatting before we brought you up here. Name space as a service. This is a newer term for us. Educate us. What does that mean? >>Basically it means we don't give a full cluster to our consumers, right? We only give them basically cpu, memory networking. That's all they need to host application. Everything else we abstract away. And especially in a banking context where compliance is a big thing, you don't need to do compliance for an entire s clusterized developer. It's really saves development time for the colleagues in the bank. It >>Decreases the complexity of projects, which is a huge theme here, especially at scale. I can imagine. I mean, my gosh, you're serving so many different people, it probably saves you time. Let's talk about regulation. What, how challenging is that for you as technologists to balance in all the regulations around banking and FinTech? It's, it's, it's, it's not like some of these kind of wild, wild west industries where we can just go out and play and prototype and do whatever we want. There's a lot of >>Rules. There's a lot of rules. And the problem is you have legislation and you have the real world. Right. And you have to find something in, they're >>Not the same thing. >>You have to find something in between with both parties on the stands and cannot adhere to. Yeah. So the challenge we had, basically we had to wide our, in our own container security standards to prove that the things we were doing were the white things to be in control as a bank because there was no market standard for container security. So basically we took some input from this. So n did a lot of good work. We basically added some things on top to be valid for a bank in Europe. So yeah, that's what we did. And the nice thing is today we take all the boxes we defined back in 2019. >>Hey, so you what it's, I guess, I guess the rules are a little bit easier when you get to help define them. Yep. Yeah. That it feels like a very good strategic call >>And they makes sense. Yeah. Right. Because the hardest problem is try to be compliant for something which doesn't make sense. Right, >>Right. Arnold, talk about, let's double click on namespace as a service. You talked about what that is, but give us a little bit of information on why I N G really believes this is the right approach for this company. >>It's protects for the security that developers doing things they don't shoot. Yeah. They cannot access their store anymore when it is running in production. And that is the most, most important. That is, it is immutable running in our platform. >>Excellent. Talk about both of you. How long have you, have you both been at I n G for a long time? >>I've been with I N G since September, 2001. So that's more than 20 years >>Now. Long time. Ana, what about you? >>Before 2000 already before. >>So both of your comment on that's a long time. Yeah. Talk about the culture of innovation that's at I N G to be able to move at such speed and be groundbreaking in what you're, how you're using technology, what, what's the appetite like at the bank to embrace new and emerging technologies? >>So we are really looking, basically the, the mantra of the bank is to help our customers get a step ahead in life and in business. And we do that by one superior customer service and secondly, sustainability at the heart. So anything which contributes to those targets, you can go to your manager and if you can make goods case why it contributes most of the cases you get some time or some budgets or even some additional colleagues to help you out and give it a try require from a culture perspective required open to trying things out before we reach production. Once you go to production. Yeah. Then we are back to being a bank and you need to take all the boxes to make really sure that we are confident with our customers data and basically we're still a bank but a lot of is possible. >>A lot. It is possible. And there's the customer on the other end who's expecting, like I said earlier, that they can access their data any time that they want, be able to do any transaction they want, making sure the content that's delivered to them is relevant, that it's secure. Obviously with, that's the biggest challenge especially is we think about how many generations are alive today and and those that aren't tech savvy. Yeah. Have challenges with that. Talk about what the bank's dedication is to ensuring from a security perspective that its customers don't have anything to worry about. >>That's always a thin line between security and the user experience. So I n g, like every other bank needs to make choices. Yes. We want the really ease of customers and take the risk that somebody abuses it or do we make it really, really secure and alienate part of our customer base. And that's an ongoing, that's a, that's a a hard, >>It's a trade off. That's >>A line. >>So it's really hard. Interesting part is in Netherlands we had some debates about banks closing down locations, but the moment we introduced our mobile weapon iPads, basically the debates became a lot quieter because a lot of elderly people couldn't work with an iPhone. It turned out they were perfectly fine with a well-designed iPad app to do their banking. Really? >>Okay. >>But that's already learning from like 15 years ago. >>What was the, what was the product roadmap on that? So how, I mean I can imagine you released a mobile app, you're not really thinking that. >>That's basically, I think that was a heavy coincidence. We just, Yeah, okay. Went out to design a very good mobile app. Yeah. And then looking out afterwards at the statistics we say, hey, who was using this way? We've got somebody who's signing on and I dunno the exact age, but it was something like somebody of 90 plus who signed on to use that mobile app. >>Wow. Wow. I mean you really are the five different generations living and working right now. Designing technology. Everybody has to go to the bank whether we are fans of our bank or we're not. Although now I'm thinking about IG as a bank in general. Y'all have a a very good attitude about it. What has kept you at the company for over 20 years? That is we, we see people move around, especially in this technology industry. Yes. Yeah. You know, every two to three years. Sometimes obviously you're in positions of leadership, they're obviously taking good care of you. But I mean multiple decades. Why have you stuck? >>Well first I didn't have the same job in I N D for two decades. Nice. So I went around the infrastructure domain. I did storage initially I did security, I did solution design and in the end I ended up in enterprise architecture. So yeah, it's not like I stuck 20 years in the same role. So every so years >>Go up the ladder but also grow your own skill sets. >>Explore. Yeah. >>So basically I think that's what's every, everybody should be thinking in these days. If you're in a cloud head industry, if you're good at it, you can out quite a nice salary. But it also means that you have some kind of obligation to society to make a difference. And I think, yeah, >>I wouldn't say that everybody feels that way. I >>Need to make a difference with I N G A difference for being more available to our consumers, be more secure to, to our consumers. I, I think that's what's driving me to stick with the company. >>What about you R Now? >>Yes, for me it's very important. Every two, three years are doing new things. I can work with the latest technology so I become really, really innovative so that it is the place to be. >>Yeah. You sort of get that rotation every two to three years with the different tools that you're using. Speaking of or here we're at Cuan, we're talking cloud native, we're talking Kubernetes. Do you think it's possible to, I'm coming back to the regulations. Do you think it's possible to get to banking grade security with cloud native Tech? >>Initially I said we would be at least as secure traditional la but last Tuesday we've proven we can get more secure than situational it. So yeah, definitely. Yes. >>Awesome. I mean, sounds like you proved it to yourself too, which is really saying something. >>Well we actually have Penta results and of course I cannot divulge those, but I about pretty good. >>Can you define, I wanna kind of double book on thanking great security, define what that is, thanking great security and how could other industries aim to Yeah, >>Hit that, that >>Standard. I want security everywhere. Especially my bank. The >>Architecture is zero privilege. So you hear a lot about lease privilege in all the security talks. That's not what you should be aiming for. Zero privilege is what you should be aiming for. And once you're at zero privileged environments, okay, who can leak data because no natural person has access to it. Even if you have somebody invading your infrastructure, there are no privileges. They cannot do privilege escalations. Yeah. So the answer for me is really clear. If you are handling customer data, if you're and customer funds aim for zero privilege architecture, >>What, what are you most excited about next? What's next for you guys? What's next for I n G? What are we gonna be talking about when we're chatting to you Right here? Atan next year or in Amsterdam actually, since we're headed that way in the spring, which is fun. Yes. >>Happy to be your host in Amsterdam. The >>Other way around. We're holding you to that. You've talked about how fun the culture is. Now you're gonna ask, she and I we need, but we need the tee-shirts. We, we obviously need a matching outfit. >>Definitely. We'll arrange some teachers for you as well. Yeah, no, for me, two highlights from this com. The first one was kcp. That can potentially be a paradigm change on how we deal with workloads on Kubernetes. So that's very interesting. I don't know if you see any implementations by next year, but it's definitely something. Looks >>Like we had them on the show as well. Yeah. So it's, it's very fun. I'm sure, I'm sure they'll be very flattered that you just just said. What about you Arnoldo that got you most excited? >>The most important for me was talking to a lot of Asian is other people. What if they thinking how we go forward? So the, the, the community and talk to each other. And also we found those and people how we go forward. >>Yeah, that's been a big thing for us here on the cube and just the energy, the morale. I mean the open source community is so collaborative. It creates an entirely different ethos. Arna. Ty, thank you so much for being here. It's wonderful to have you and hear what I n g is doing in the technology space. Lisa, always a pleasure to co-host with you. Of course. And thank you Cube fans for hanging out with us here on day three of Cuban Live from Detroit, Michigan. My name is Savannah Peterson and we'll see you up next for a great chat coming soon.

>>Hello everyone and welcome back to Motor City, Michigan. We're live from the Cube and my name is Savannah Peterson. Joined this afternoon with my co-host John Ferer. John, how you doing? Doing >>Great. This next segment's gonna be awesome about application modernization, scaling pluses. This is what's gonna, how are the next generation software revolution? It's gonna be >>Fun. You know, it's kind of been a theme of our day today is scale. And when we think about the complex orchestration platform that is Kubernetes, everyone wants to scale faster, quicker, more efficiently, and our guests are here to tell us all about that. Please welcome to Char and Andy, thank you so much for being here with us. You were on the Red Hat OpenShift team. Yeah. I suspect most of our audience is familiar, but just in case, let's give 'em a quick one-liner pitch so everyone's on the same page. Tell us about OpenShift. >>I, I'll take that one. OpenShift is our ES platform is our ES distribution. You can consume it as a self-managed platform or you can consume it as a managed service on on public clouds. And so we just call it all OpenShift. So it's basically Kubernetes, but you know, with a CNCF ecosystem around it to make things more easier. So maybe there's two >>Lights. So what does being at coupon mean for you? How does it feel to be here? What's your initial takes? >>Exciting. I'm having a fantastic time. I haven't been to coupon since San Diego, so it's great to be back in person and see old friends, make new friends, have hallway conversations. It's, it's great as an engineer trying to work in this ecosystem, just being able to, to be in the same place with these folks. >>And you gotta ask, before we came on camera, you're like, this is like my sixth co con. We were like, we're seven, you know, But that's a lot of co coupons. It >>Is, yes. I mean, so what, >>Yes. >>Take us status >>For sure. Where we are now. Compare and contrast co. Your first co con, just scope it out. What's the magnitude of change? If you had to put a pin on that, because there's a lot of new people coming in, they might not have seen where it's come from and how we got here is maybe not how we're gonna get to the next >>Level. I've seen it grow tremendously since the first one I went to, which I think was Austin several years ago. And what's great is seeing lots of new people interested in contributing and also seeing end users who are trying to figure out the best way to take advantage of this great ecosystem that we have. >>Awesome. And the project management side, you get the keys to the Kingdom with Red Hat OpenShift, which has been successful. Congratulations by the way. Thank you. We watched that grow and really position right on the wave. It's going great. What's the update on on the product? Kind of, you're in a good, good position right now. Yeah, >>No, we we're feeling good about it. It's all about our customers. Obviously the fact that, you know, we have thousands of customers using OpenShift as the cloud native platform, the container platform. We're very excited. The great thing about them is that, I mean you can go to like OpenShift Commons is kind of a user group that we run on the first day, like on Tuesday we ran. I mean you should see the number of just case studies that our customers went through there, you know? And it is fantastic to see that. I mean it's across so many different industries, across so many different use cases, which is very exciting. >>One of the things we've been reporting here in the Qla scene before, but here more important is just that if you take digital transformation to the, to its conclusion, the IT department and developers, they're not a department to serve the business. They are the business. Yes. That means that the developers are deciding things. Yeah. And running the business. Prove their code. Yeah. Okay. If that's, if that takes place, you gonna have scale. And we also said on many cubes, certainly at Red Hat Summit and other ones, the clouds are distributed computer, it's distributed computing. So you guys are focusing on this project, Andy, that you're working on kcp. >>Yes. >>Which is, I won't platform Kubernetes platform for >>Control >>Planes. Control planes. Yes. Take us through, what's the focus on why is that important and why is that relate to the mission of developers being in charge and large scale? >>Sure. So a lot of times when people are interested in developing on Kubernetes and running workloads, they need a cluster of course. And those are not cheap. It takes time, it takes money, it takes resources to get them. And so we're trying to make that faster and easier for, for end users and everybody involved. So with kcp, we've been able to take what looks like one normal Kubernetes and partition it. And so everybody gets a slice of it. You're an administrator in your little slice and you don't have to ask for permission to install new APIs and they don't conflict with anybody else's APIs. So we're really just trying to make it super fast and make it super flexible. So everybody is their own admin. >>So the developer basically looks at it as a resource blob. They can do whatever they want, but it's shared and provisioned. >>Yes. One option. It's like, it's like they have their own cluster, but you don't have to go through the process of actually provisioning a full >>Cluster. And what's the alternative? What's the what's, what's the, what's the benefit and what was the alternative to >>This? So the alternative, you spin up a full cluster, which you know, maybe that's three control plane nodes, you've got multiple workers, you've got a bunch of virtual machines or bare metal, or maybe you take, >>How much time does that take? Just ballpark. >>Anywhere from five minutes to an hour you can use cloud services. Yeah. Gke, E Ks and so on. >>Keep banging away. You're configuring. Yeah. >>Those are faster. Yeah. But it's still like, you still have to wait for that to happen and it costs money to do all of that too. >>Absolutely. And it's complex. Why do something that's been done, if there's a tool that can get you a couple steps down the path, which makes a ton of sense. Something that we think a lot when we're talking about scale. You mentioned earlier, Tohar, when we were chatting before the cams were alive, scale means a lot of different things. Can you dig in there a little bit? >>Yeah, I >>Mean, so when, when >>We talk about scale, >>We are talking about from a user perspective, we are talking about, you know, there are more users, there are more applications, there are more workloads, there are more services being run on Kubernetes now, right? So, and OpenShift. So, so that's one dimension of this scale. The other dimension of the scale is how do you manage all the underlying infrastructure, the clusters, the name spaces, and all the observability data, et cetera. So that's at least two levels of scale. And then obviously there's a third level of scale, which is, you know, there is scale across not just different clouds, but also from cloud to the edge. So there is that dimension of scale. So there are several dimensions of this scale. And the one that again, we are focused on here really is about, you know, this, the first one that I talk about is a user. And when I say user, it could be a developer, it could be an application architect, or it could be an application owner who wants to develop Kubernetes applications for Kubernetes and wants to publish those APIs, if you will, and make it discoverable and then somebody consumes it. So that's the scale we are talking about >>Here. What are some of the enterprise, you guys have a lot of customers, we've talked to you guys before many, many times and other subjects, Red Hat, I mean you guys have all the customers. Yeah. Enterprise, they've been there, done that. And you know, they're, they're savvy. Yeah. But the cloud is a whole nother ballgame. What are they thinking about? What's the psychology of the customer right now? Because now they have a lot of choices. Okay, we get it, we're gonna re-platform refactor apps, we'll keep some legacy on premises for whatever reasons. But cloud pretty much is gonna be the game. What's the mindset right now of the customer base? Where are they in their, in their psych? Not the executive, but more of the the operators or the developers? >>Yeah, so I mean, first of all, different customers are at different levels of maturity, I would say in this. They're all on a journey how I like to describe it. And in this journey, I mean, I see a customers who are really tip of the sphere. You know, they have containerized everything. They're cloud native, you know, they use best of tools, I mean automation, you know, complete automation, you know, quick deployment of applications and all, and life cycle of applications, et cetera. So that, that's kind of one end of this spectrum >>Advanced. Then >>The advances, you know, and, and I, you know, I don't, I don't have any specific numbers here, but I'd say there are quite a few of them. And we see that. And then there is kind of the middle who are, I would say, who are familiar with containers. They know what app modernization, what a cloud application means. They might have tried a few. So they are in the journey. They are kind of, they want to get there. They have some other kind of other issues, organizational or talent and so, so on and so forth. Kinds of issues to get there. And then there are definitely the quota, what I would call the lag arts still. And there's lots of them. But I think, you know, Covid has certainly accelerated a lot of that. I hear that. And there is definitely, you know, more, the psychology is definitely more towards what I would say public cloud. But I think where we are early also in the other trend that I see is kind of okay, public cloud great, right? So people are going there, but then there is the so-called edge also. Yeah. That is for various regions. You, you gotta have a kind of a regional presence, a edge presence. And that's kind of the next kind of thing taking off here. And we can talk more >>About it. Yeah, let's talk about that a little bit because I, as you know, as we know, we're very excited about Edge here at the Cube. Yeah. What types of trends are you seeing? Is that space emerges a little bit more firmly? >>Yeah, so I mean it's, I mean, so we, when we talk about Edge, you're talking about, you could talk about Edge as a, as a retail, I mean locations, right? >>Could be so many things edges everywhere. Everywhere, right? It's all around us. Quite literally. Even on the >>Scale. Exactly. In space too. You could, I mean, in fact you mentioned space. I was, I was going to >>Kinda, it's this world, >>My space actually Kubernetes and OpenShift running in space, believe it or not, you know, So, so that's the edge, right? So we have Industrial Edge, we have Telco Edge, we have a 5g, then we have, you know, automotive edge now and, and, and retail edge and, and more, right? So, and space, you know, So it's very exciting there. So the reason I tag back to that question that you asked earlier is that that's where customers are. So cloud is one thing, but now they gotta also think about how do I, whatever I do in the cloud, how do I bring it to the edge? Because that's where my end users are, my customers are, and my data is, right? So that's the, >>And I think Kubernetes has brought that attention to the laggards. We had the Laed Martin on yesterday, which is an incredible real example of Kubernetes at the edge. It's just incredible story. We covered it also wrote a story about it. So compelling. Cuz it makes it real. Yes. And Kubernetes is real. So then the question is developer productivity, okay, Things are starting to settle in. We've got KCP scaling clusters, things are happening. What about the tool chains? And how do I develop now I got scale of development, more code coming in. I mean, we are speculating that in the future there's so much code in open source that no one has to write code anymore. Yeah. At some point it's like this gluing things together. So the developers need to be productive. How are we gonna scale the developer equation and eliminate the, the complexity of tool chains and environments. Web assembly is super hyped up at this show. I don't know why, but sounds good. No one, no one can tell me why, but I can kind of connect the dots. But this is a big thing. >>Yeah. And it's fitting that you ask about like no code. So we've been working with our friends at Cross Plain and have integrated with kcp the ability to no code, take a whole bunch of configuration and say, I want a database. I want to be a, a provider of databases. I'm in an IT department, there's a bunch of developers, they don't wanna have to write code to create databases. So I can just take, take my configuration and make it available to them. And through some super cool new easy to use tools that we have as a developer, you can just say, please give me a database and you don't have to write any code. I don't have to write any code to maintain that database. I'm actually using community tooling out there to get that spun up. So there's a lot of opportunities out there. So >>That's ease of use check. What about a large enterprise that's got multiple tool chains and you start having security issues. Does that disrupt the tool chain capability? Like there's all those now weird examples emerging, not weird, but like real plumbing challenges. How do you guys see that evolving with Red >>Hat and Yeah, I mean, I mean, talking about that, right? The software, secure software supply chain is a huge concern for everyone after, especially some of the things that have happened in the past few >>Years. Massive team here at the show. Yeah. And just within the community, we're all a little more aware, I think, even than we were before. >>Before. Yeah. Yeah. And, and I think the, so to step back, I mean from, so, so it's not just even about, you know, run time vulnerability scanning, Oh, that's important, but that's not enough, right? So we are talking about, okay, how did that container, or how did that workload get there? What is that workload? What's the prominence of this workload? How did it get created? What is in it? You know, and what, what are, how do I make, make sure that there are no unsafe attack s there. And so that's the software supply chain. And where Red Hat is very heavily invested. And as you know, with re we kind of have roots in secure operating system. And rel one of the reasons why Rel, which is the foundation of everything we do at Red Hat, is because of security. So an OpenShift has always been secure out of the box with things like scc, rollbacks access control, we, which we added very early in the product. >>And now if you kind of bring that forward, you know, now we are talking about the complete software supply chain security. And this is really about right how from the moment the, the, the developer rights code and checks it into a gateway repository from there on, how do you build it? How do you secure it at each step of the process, how do you sign it? And we are investing and contributing to the community with things like cosign and six store, which is six store project. And so that secures the supply chain. And then you can use things like algo cd and then finally we can do it, deploy it onto the cluster itself. And then we have things like acs, which can do vulnerability scanning, which is a container security platform. >>I wanna thank you guys for coming on. I know Savannah's probably got a last question, but my last question is, could you guys each take a minute to answer why has Kubernetes been so successful today? What, what was the magic of Kubernetes that made it successful? Was it because no one forced it? Yes. Was it lightweight? Was it good timing, right place at the right time community? What's the main reason that Kubernetes is enabling all this, all this shift and goodness that's coming together, kind of defacto unifies people, the stacks, almost middleware markets coming around. Again, not to use that term middleware, but it feels like it's just about to explode. Yeah. Why is this so successful? I, >>I think, I mean, the shortest answer that I can give there really is, you know, as you heard the term, I think Satya Nala from Microsoft has used it. I don't know if he was the original person who pointed, but every company wants to be a software company or is a software company now. And that means that they want to develop stuff fast. They want to develop stuff at scale and develop at, in a cloud native way, right? You know, with the cloud. So that's, and, and Kubernetes came at the right time to address the cloud problem, especially across not just one public cloud or two public clouds, but across a whole bunch of public clouds and infrastructure as, and what we call the hybrid clouds. I think the ES is really exploded because of hybrid cloud, the need for hybrid cloud. >>And what's your take on the, the magic Kubernetes? What made it, what's making it so successful? >>I would agree also that it came about at the right time, but I would add that it has great extensibility and as developers we take it advantage of that every single day. And I think that the, the patterns that we use for developing are very consistent. And I think that consistency that came with Kubernetes, just, you have so many people who are familiar with it and so they can follow the same patterns, implement things similarly, and it's just a good fit for the way that we want to get our software out there and have, and have things operate. >>Keep it simple, stupid almost is that acronym, but the consistency and the de facto alignment Yes. Behind it just created a community. So, so then the question is, are the developers now setting the standards? That seems like that's the new way, right? I mean, >>I'd like to think so. >>So I mean hybrid, you, you're touching everything at scale and you also have mini shift as well, right? Which is taking a super macro micro shift. You ma micro shift. Oh yeah, yeah, exactly. It is a micro shift. That is, that is fantastic. There isn't a base you don't cover. You've spoken a lot about community and both of you have, and serving the community as well as your engagement with them from a, I mean, it's given that you're both leaders stepping back, how, how Community First is Red Hat and OpenShift as an organization when it comes to building the next products and, and developing. >>I'll take and, and I'm sure Andy is actually the community, so I'm sure he'll want to a lot of it. But I mean, right from the start, we have roots in open source. I'll keep it, you know, and, and, and certainly with es we were one of the original contributors to Kubernetes other than Google. So in some ways we think about as co-creators of es, they love that. And then, yeah, then we have added a lot of things in conjunction with the, I I talk about like SCC for Secure, which has become part security right now, which the community, we added things like our back and other what we thought were enterprise features needed because we actually wanted to build a product out of it and sell it to customers where our customers are enterprises. So we have worked with the community. Sometimes we have been ahead of the community and we have convinced the community. Sometimes the community has been ahead of us for other reasons. So it's been a great collaboration, which is I think the right thing to do. But Andy, as I said, >>Is the community well set too? Are well said. >>Yes, I agree with all of that. I spend most of my days thinking about how to interact with the community and engage with them. So the work that we're doing on kcp, we want it to be a community project and we want to involve as many people as we can. So it is a heavy focus for me and my team. And yeah, we we do >>It all the time. How's it going? How's the project going? You feel good >>About it? I do. It is, it started as an experiment or set of prototypes and has grown leaps and bounds from it's roots and it's, it's fantastic. Yeah. >>Controlled planes are hot data planes control planes. >>I >>Know, I love it. Making things work together horizontally scalable. Yeah. Sounds like cloud cloud native. >>Yeah. I mean, just to add to it, there are a couple of talks that on KCP at Con that our colleagues s Stephan Schemanski has, and I, I, I would urge people who have listening, if they have, just Google it, if you will, and you'll get them. And those are really awesome talks to get more about >>It. Oh yeah, no, and you can tell on GitHub that KCP really is a community project and how many people are participating. It's always fun to watch the action live to. Sure. Andy, thank you so much for being here with us, John. Wonderful questions this afternoon. And thank all of you for tuning in and listening to us here on the Cube Live from Detroit. I'm Savannah Peterson. Look forward to seeing you again very soon.

>>Keon Cloud Native Con kicks off in Detroit on October 24th, and we're pleased to have Stewart Miniman, who's the director of Market Insights, hi, at, for hybrid platforms at Red Hat back in the studio to help us understand the key trends to look for at the events. Do welcome back, like old, old, old >>Home. Thank you, David. It's great to, great to see you and always love doing these previews, even though Dave, come on. How many years have I told you Cloud native con, It's a hoodie crowd. They're gonna totally call you out for where in a tie and things like that. I, I know you want to be an ESPN sportscaster, but you know, I I, I, I still don't think even after, you know, this show's been around for so many years that there's gonna be too many ties into Troy. I >>Know I left the hoodie in my off, I'm sorry folks, but hey, we'll just have to go for it. Okay. Containers generally, and Kubernetes specifically continue to show very strong spending momentum in the ETR survey data. So let's bring up this slide that shows the ETR sectors, all the sectors in the tax taxonomy with net score or spending velocity in the vertical axis and pervasiveness on the horizontal axis. Now, that red dotted line that you see, that marks the elevated 40% mark, anything above that is considered highly elevated in terms of momentum. Now, for years, the big four areas of momentum that shine above all the rest have been cloud containers, rpa, and ML slash ai for the first time in 10 quarters, ML and AI and RPA have dropped below the 40% line, leaving only cloud and containers in rarefied air. Now, Stu, I'm sure this data doesn't surprise you, but what do you make of this? >>Yeah, well, well, Dave, I, I did an interview with at Deepak who owns all the container and open source activity at Amazon earlier this year, and his comment was, the default deployment mechanism in Amazon is containers. So when I look at your data and I see containers and cloud going in sync, yeah, that, that's, that's how we see things. We're helping lots of customers in their overall adoption. And this cloud native ecosystem is still, you know, we're still in that Cambridge explosion of new projects, new opportunities, AI's a great workload for these type type of technologies. So it's really becoming pervasive in the marketplace. >>And, and I feel like the cloud and containers go hand in hand, so it's not surprising to see those two above >>The 40%. You know, there, there's nothing to say that, Look, can I run my containers in my data center and not do the public cloud? Sure. But in the public cloud, the default is the container. And one of the hot discussions we've been having in this ecosystem for a number of years is edge computing. And of course, you know, I want something that that's small and lightweight and can do things really fast. A lot of times it's an AI workload out there, and containers is a great fit at the edge too. So wherever it goes, containers is a good fit, which has been keeping my group at Red Hat pretty busy. >>So let's talk about some of those high level stats that we put together and preview for the event. So it's really around the adoption of open source software and Kubernetes. Here's, you know, a few fun facts. So according to the state of enterprise open source report, which was published by Red Hat, although it was based on a blind survey, nobody knew that that Red Hat was, you know, initiating it. 80% of IT execs expect to increase their use of enterprise open source software. Now, the CNCF community has currently more than 120,000 developers. That's insane when you think about that developer resource. 73% of organizations in the most recent CNCF annual survey are using Kubernetes. Now, despite the momentum, according to that same Red Hat survey, adoption barriers remain for some organizations. Stu, I'd love you to talk about this specifically around skill sets, and then we've highlighted some of the other trends that we expect to see at the event around Stu. I'd love to, again, your, get your thoughts on the preview. You've done a number of these events, automation, security, governance, governance at scale, edge deployments, which you just mentioned among others. Now Kubernetes is eight years old, and I always hear people talking about there's something coming beyond Kubernetes, but it looks like we're just getting started. Yeah, >>Dave, It, it is still relatively early days. The CMC F survey, I think said, you know, 96% of companies when they, when CMC F surveyed them last year, were either deploying Kubernetes or had plans to deploy it. But when I talked to enterprises, nobody has said like, Hey, we've got every group on board and all of our applications are on. It is a multi-year journey for most companies and plenty of them. If you, you look at the general adoption of technology, we're still working through kind of that early majority. We, you know, passed the, the chasm a couple of years ago. But to a point, you and I we're talking about this ecosystem, there are plenty of people in this ecosystem that could care less about containers and Kubernetes. Lots of conversations at this show won't even talk about Kubernetes. You've got, you know, big security group that's in there. >>You've got, you know, certain workloads like we talked about, you know, AI and ml and that are in there. And automation absolutely is playing a, a good role in what's going on here. So in some ways, Kubernetes kind of takes a, a backseat because it is table stakes at this point. So lots of people involved in it, lots of activities still going on. I mean, we're still at a cadence of three times a year now. We slowed it down from four times a year as an industry, but there's, there's still lots of innovation happening, lots of adoption, and oh my gosh, Dave, I mean, there's just no shortage of new projects and new people getting involved. And what's phenomenal about it is there's, you know, end user practitioners that aren't just contributing. But many of the projects were spawned out of work by the likes of Intuit and Spotify and, and many others that created some of the projects that sit alongside or above the, the, you know, the container orchestration itself. >>So before we talked about some of that, it's, it's kind of interesting. It's like Kubernetes is the big dog, right? And it's, it's kind of maturing after, you know, eight years, but it's still important. I wanna share another data point that underscores the traction that containers generally are getting in Kubernetes specifically have, So this is data from the latest ETR survey and shows the spending breakdown for Kubernetes in the ETR data set for it's cut for respondents with 50 or more citations in, in by the IT practitioners that lime green is new adoptions, the forest green is spending 6% or more relative to last year. The gray is flat spending year on year, and those little pink bars, that's 6% or down spending, and the bright red is retirements. So they're leaving the platform. And the blue dots are net score, which is derived by subtracting the reds from the greens. And the yellow dots are pervasiveness in the survey relative to the sector. So the big takeaway here is that there is virtually no red, essentially zero churn across all sectors, large companies, public companies, private firms, telcos, finance, insurance, et cetera. So again, sometimes I hear this things beyond Kubernetes, you've mentioned several, but it feels like Kubernetes is still a driving force, but a lot of other projects around Kubernetes, which we're gonna hear about at the show. >>Yeah. So, so, so Dave, right? First of all, there was for a number of years, like, oh wait, you know, don't waste your time on, on containers because serverless is gonna rule the world. Well, serverless is now a little bit of a broader term. Can I do a serverless viewpoint for my developers that they don't need to think about the infrastructure but still have containers underneath it? Absolutely. So our friends at Amazon have a solution called Fargate, their proprietary offering to kind of hide that piece of it. And in the open source world, there's a project called Can Native, I think it's the second or third can Native Con's gonna happen at the cncf. And even if you use this, I can still call things over on Lambda and use some of those functions. So we know Dave, it is additive and nothing ever dominates the entire world and nothing ever dies. >>So we have, we have a long runway of activities still to go on in containers and Kubernetes. We're always looking for what that next thing is. And what's great about this ecosystem is most of it tends to be additive and plug into the pieces there, there's certain tools that, you know, span beyond what can happen in the container world and aren't limited to it. And there's others that are specific for it. And to talk about the industries, Dave, you know, I love, we we have, we have a community event that we run that's gonna happen at Cubans called OpenShift Commons. And when you look at like, who's speaking there? Oh, we've got, you know, for Lockheed Martin, University of Michigan and I g Bank all speaking there. So you look and it's like, okay, cool, I've got automotive, I've got, you know, public sector, I've got, you know, university education and I've got finance. So all of you know, there is not an industry that is not touched by this. And the general wave of software adoption is the reason why, you know, not just adoption, but the creation of new software is one of the differentiators for companies. And that is what, that's the reason why I do containers, isn't because it's some cool technology and Kubernetes is great to put on my resume, but that it can actually accelerate my developers and help me create technology that makes me respond to my business and my ultimate end users. Well, >>And you know, as you know, we've been talking about the Supercloud a lot and the Kubernetes is clearly enabler to, to Supercloud, but I wanted to go back, you and John Furrier have done so many of, you know, the, the cube cons, but but go back to Docker con before Kubernetes was even a thing. And so you sort of saw this, you know, grow. I think there's what, how many projects are in CNCF now? I mean, hundreds. Hundreds, okay. And so you're, Will we hear things in Detroit, things like, you know, new projects like, you know, Argo and capabilities around SI store and things like that? Well, you're gonna hear a lot about that. Or is it just too much to cover? >>So I, I mean the, the good news, Dave, is that the CNCF really is, is a good steward for this community and new things got in get in. So there's so much going on with the existing projects that some of the new ones sometimes have a little bit of a harder time making a little bit of buzz. One of the more interesting ones is a project that's been around for a while that I think back to the first couple of Cube Cuban that John and I did service Mesh and Istio, which was created by Google, but lived under basically a, I guess you would say a Google dominated governance for a number of years is now finally under the CNCF Foundation. So I talked to a number of companies over the years and definitely many of the contributors over the years that didn't love that it was a Google Run thing, and now it is finally part. >>So just like Kubernetes is, we have SEO and also can Native that I mentioned before also came outta Google and those are all in the cncf. So will there be new projects? Yes. The CNCF is sometimes they, they do matchmaking. So in some of the observability space, there were a couple of projects that they said, Hey, maybe you can go merge down the road. And they ended up doing that. So there's still you, you look at all these projects and if I was an end user saying, Oh my God, there is so much change and so many projects, you know, I can't spend the time in the effort to learn about all of these. And that's one of the challenges and something obviously at Red Hat, we spend a lot of time figuring out, you know, not to make winners, but which are the things that customers need, Where can we help make them run in production for our, our customers and, and help bring some stability and a little bit of security for the overall ecosystem. >>Well, speaking of security, security and, and skill sets, we've talked about those two things and they sort of go hand in hand when I go to security events. I mean, we're at reinforced last summer, we were just recently at the CrowdStrike event. A lot of the discussion is sort of best practice because it's so complicated. And, and, and will you, I presume you're gonna hear a lot of that here because security securing containers now, you know, the whole shift left thing and shield right is, is a complicated matter, especially when you saw with the earlier data from the Red Hat survey, the the gaps are around skill sets. People don't have the skill. So should we expect to hear a lot about that, A lot of sort of how to, how to take advantage of some of these new capabilities? >>Yeah, Dave, absolutely. So, you know, one of the conversations going on in the community right now is, you know, has DevOps maybe played out as we expect to see it? There's a newer term called platform engineering, and how much do I need to do there? Something that I, I know your, your team's written a lot about Dave, is how much do you need to know versus what can you shift to just a platform or a service that I can consume? I've talked a number of times with you since I've been at Red Hat about the cloud services that we offer. So you want to use our offering in the public cloud. Our first recommendation is, hey, we've got cloud services, how much Kubernetes do you really want to learn versus you want to do what you can build on top of it, modernize the pieces and have less running the plumbing and electric and more, you know, taking advantage of the, the technologies there. So that's a big thing we've seen, you know, we've got a big SRE team that can manage that for use so that you have to spend less time worrying about what really is un differentiated heavy lifting and spend more time on what's important to your business and your >>Customers. So, and that's, and that's through a managed service. >>Yeah, absolutely. >>That whole space is just taken off. All right, Stu I'll give you the final word. You know, what are you excited about for, for, for this upcoming event and Detroit? Interesting choice of venue? Yeah, >>Look, first of off, easy flight. I've, I've never been to Detroit, so I'm, I'm willing to give it a shot and hopefully, you know, that awesome airport. There's some, some, some good things there to learn. The show itself is really a choose your own adventure because there's so much going on. The main show of QAN and cloud Native Con is Wednesday through Friday, but a lot of a really interesting stuff happens on Monday and Tuesday. So we talked about things like OpenShift Commons in the security space. There's cloud Native Security Day, which is actually two days and a SIG store event. There, there's a get up show, there's, you know, k native day. There's so many things that if you want to go deep on a topic, you can go spend like a workshop in some of those you can get hands on to. And then at the show itself, there's so much, and again, you can learn from your peers. >>So it was good to see we had, during the pandemic, it tilted a little bit more vendor heavy because I think most practitioners were pretty busy focused on what they could work on and less, okay, hey, I'm gonna put together a presentation and maybe I'm restricted at going to a show. Yeah, not, we definitely saw that last year when I went to LA I was disappointed how few customer sessions there were. It, it's back when I go look through the schedule now there's way more end users sharing their stories and it, it's phenomenal to see that. And the hallway track, Dave, I didn't go to Valencia, but I hear it was really hopping felt way more like it was pre pandemic. And while there's a few people that probably won't come because Detroit, we think there's, what we've heard and what I've heard from the CNCF team is they are expecting a sizable group up there. I know a lot of the hotels right near the, where it's being held are all sold out. So it should be, should be a lot of fun. Good thing I'm speaking on an edge panel. First time I get to be a speaker at the show, Dave, it's kind of interesting to be a little bit of a different role at the show. >>So yeah, Detroit's super convenient, as I said. Awesome. Airports too. Good luck at the show. So it's a full week. The cube will be there for three days, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday. Thanks for coming. >>Wednesday, Thursday, Friday, sorry, >>Wednesday, Thursday, Friday is the cube, right? So thank you for that. >>And, and no ties from the host, >>No ties, only hoodies. All right Stu, thanks. Appreciate you coming in. Awesome. And thank you for watching this preview of CubeCon plus cloud Native Con with at Stu, which again starts the 24th of October, three days of broadcasting. Go to the cube.net and you can see all the action. We'll see you there.

(upbeat music) >> Kubernetes is maturing for example moving from quarterly releases to three per year, it's adding many of the capabilities that early on were avoided by Kubernetes committers, but now are going more mainstream, for example, more robust security and better support from mobile cluster management and other functions. But core Kubernetes by itself, doesn't get organizations where they need to go. That's why the ecosystem has stepped up to fill the gaps in application development. Developers as we know, they don't care about infrastructure, but they do care about building new apps, they care about modernizing existing apps, leveraging data, scaling, they care about automation look, they want to be cloud native. And one of the companies leading the ecosystem charge and building out more robust capabilities is Red Hat. And ahead of KubeCon Spain. It's our pleasure to welcome in Stu Miniman director of market insights at Red Hat to preview the event, Stu, good to see you, how you been? >> I'm doing awesome, Dave. Thanks for having me, great to be here. >> Yeah. So what's going on in Kube land these days? >> So it's funny Dave, if you were to kind of just listen out there in the marketplace, the CNCF has a survey that's like 96% of companies running Kubernetes production, everybody's doing it. And others will say, oh no, Kubernetes, only a small group group of people are using it, it's already probably got newer technologies that's replacing it. And the customers that I'm talking to Dave, first of all, yes, containers of Kubernetes, great growth growth rate, good adoption overall, I think we've said more than a year or two ago, we've probably crossed that chasm, the Jeff Moore, it's longer the early people just building all their own thing, taking all the open source, building this crazy stack that they need to had to do a lot of work we used to say. Chewing glass to be able to make it work right or anything, but it's still not as easy as you would like, almost no company that I talk to, if you're talking about big enterprises has Kubernetes just enterprise wide, and a hundred percent of their applications running on it. What is the tough challenge for people? And I mean, Dave, something, you and I have covered for many, many years, , that application portfolio that I have, most enterprises, hundreds, thousands of applications modernizing that having that truly be cloud native, that that's a really long journey and we are still in the midst of that, so I still still think we are in that, that if you look at the cross in the chasm that early majority chunk, so some of it is how do we mature things even better? And how do we make things simpler? Talk about things like automation, simplicity, security, we need to make sure they're all there so that it can be diffused and rolled out more broadly. And then we also need to think about where are we? We talk about the next million cloud customers, where does Kubernetes and containers and all the cloud native pieces fit into that broader discussion. Yes, there's some maturity there and we can declare victory on certain things, but there's still a lot, a lot of work that everyone's doing and that leads us into the show. I mean, dozens of projects that are already graduated, many more along that process from sandbox through a whole bunch of co-located events that are there, and it's always a great community event which Red Hat of course built on open source and community projects, so we're happy to have a good presence there as always. >> So you and I have talked about this in the past how essentially container's going to be embedded into a lot of different places, and sometimes it's hard to find, it's hard to track, but if you look at kind of the pre DevOps world skillsets like provisioning LANs, or configuring ports, or troubleshooting, squeezing more, server utilism, I mean, those who are really in high demand. If that's your skillset, then you're probably out of a job today. And so that's shifted toward things like Kubernetes. So you see and you see in the ETR data, it's along with cloud, and RPA, or automation, it is right up there I mean, it's top, the big four if you will, cloud, automation, RPA, and containers. And so we know there's a lot of spending activity going on there, but sometimes, like I said, it's hard to track I mean, if you got cloud growing at 35% a year, at least for the hyperscalers that we track, Kubernetes should be growing faster than that, should it not? >> Yeah, Dave, I would agree with you when I look at the big analyst firms that track this, I believe they've only got the container space at about a 25 per percent growth rate. >> Slower than cloud. But I compare that with Deepak Singh who runs at AWS, he has the open source office, he has all the containers and Kubernetes, and has visibility in all of that. And he says, basically, containers of the default when somebody's deploying to AWS today. Yes, serverless has its place, but it has not replaced or is not pushing down, slowing down the growth of containers or Kubernetes. We've got a strong partnership, I have lots of customers running on AWS. I guess I look at the numbers and like you, I would say that I would expect that that growth rate to be north of where just cloud in general is because the general adoption of containers and Kubernetes, we're still in the early phases of things. >> And I think a lot of the spendings Stu is actually in labor resources within companies and that's hard to track. Let's talk about what we should expect at the show. Obviously this whole notion of secure supply chain was a big deal last year in LA, what's hot? >> Yeah, so security Dave, absolutely. You said for years, it's a board level discussion, it's now something that really everyone in the organization has to know about the dev sec ops movement, has seen a lot of growth, secure supply chain, we're just trying to make sure that when I use open source, there's lots of projects, there is the huge ecosystem in marketplaces that are out there. So I want to make sure that as I grab all of the pieces that I know where they got came from the proper signature certification to make sure that the full solution that I build, I understand it. And if there are vulnerabilities, I know if there's an issue, how I patch it in the industry, we talk about CBEs, so those vulnerabilities, those exploits that come out, then everybody has to do a quick runaround to understand wait, hey, is my configuration? Am I vulnerable? Do I have to patch things? So security, absolutely still a huge, huge thing. Quick from a Red Hat standpoint, people might notice we made an acquisition a year ago of StackRox. That product itself also now has a completely fully open source project itself, also called StackRox. So the product is Red Hat advanced cluster security for Kubernetes, there's an open source equivalent for that called StackRox now, open source, community, there's a monthly office hour live streaming that a guy on my team actually does, and so there'll be a lot of activity at the show talking about security. So many other things happening at the show Dave. Another key area, you talked about the developers and what they want to worry about and what they don't. In the container space, there's a project called Knative. So Google helped create that, and that's to help me really have a serverless operational model, with still the containers and Kubernetes underneath that. So at the show, there will be the firs Knative con. And if you hadn't looked at Knative in a couple of years, one of the missing pieces that is now there is eventing. So if I look at functions and events, now that event capability is there, it's something I've talked to a lot of customers that were waiting for that to have it. It's not quite the same as like a Lambda, but is similar functionality that I can have with my containers in Kubernetes world. So that's an area that's there and so many others, I mean, GitOps are super hot at the last show. It's something that we've seen, really broad adoption since Argo CD went generally available last year, and lots of customers that are taking that to help them. That's both automation put together because I can allow GitHub to be my single source of truth for where I keep code, make sure I don't have any deviation from where the kind of the golden image if you will, it lives. >> So we're talking earlier about, how hard it is to track this stuff. So with the steep trajectory of growth and new customers coming on, there's got to be a lot of experimentation going on. That probably is being done, somebody downloads the open source code and starts playing with it. And then when they go to production that I would imagine Stu that's the point at which they say, hey, we need to fill some of these gaps. And they reach out to a company like yours and say, now we got to have certifications and trust., Do you. see that? >> So here's the big shift that happened, if we were looking four or five years ago, absolutely, I'd grab the open source code and some people might do that, but what cloud really enabled Dave, is rather than just grabbing, going to the dot the GitHub repo and pulling it down itself, I can go to the cloud so Microsoft, AWS, and Google all have their Kubernetes offering and I click a button. But that just gives me Kubernetes so there's still a steep learning curve. And as you said to build out out that full stack, that is one of the big things that we do with OpenShift is we take dozens of projects, pull them in together so you get a full platform. So you spend less time on curating, integrating, and managing that platform. And more time on the real value for your business, which is the application stack itself, the security and the like. And when we deliver OpenShift in the cloud, we have an SRE team that manages that for you. So one of the big challenges we have out there, there is a skillset gap, there are thousands of people getting certified on Kubernetes. There are, I think I saw over a hundred thousand job openings with Kubernetes mentioned in it, we just can't train people up fast enough, and the question I would have as an enterprise company is, if I'm going to the cloud, how much time do I want to build having SREs, having them focus on the infrastructure versus the things that are business specific. What did Amazon promise Dave? We're going to help you get rid of undifferentiated heavy lifting. Well, I just consume things as a service where I have an SRE team manage that environment. That might make more sense so that I can spend more time focusing on my business activities. That's a big focus that we've had on Red Hat, is our offerings that we have with the cloud providers to do and need offering. >> Yeah, the managed service capability is key. We saw, go back to the Hadoop days, we saw that's where Cloudera really struggled. They had to support every open source project. And then the customers largely had to figure it out themselves. Whereas you look at what data bricks did with spark. It was a managed service that was getting much greater adoption. So these complex areas, that's what you need. So people win sometimes when I use the term super cloud, and we getting little debates on Twitter, which is a lot of fun, but the idea is that you create the abstraction layer that spans your on-prem, your cloud, so you've got a hybrid. You want to go across clouds, what people call multi-cloud but as you know, I've sort of been skeptical of multi-cloud is really multi-vendor. But so we're talking about a substantial experience that's identical across those clouds and then ultimately out to the edge and we see a super Paas layer emerging, And people building on top of that, hiding the underlying complexity. What are your thoughts on that? How does Kubernetes in your view fit in? >> Yeah, it's funny, Dave, if you look at this container space at the beginning, Docker came out of a company called dotCloud. That was a PaaS company. And there's been so many times that that core functionality of how do I make my developers not have to worry about that underlying gank, but Dave, while the storage people might not have to worry about the LANs, somebody needs to understand how storage works, how networking works, if something breaks, how do I make sure I can take care of it. Sometimes that's a service that the SRE team manages that away from me. so that yes, there is something I don't need to think of about, but these are technically tough configurations. So first to one of your main questions, what do we see in customers with their hybrid and multi-cloud journey? So OpenShift over 10 years old, we started OpenShift before Kubernetes even was a thing. Lots of our customers run in what most people would consider hybrid, what does that mean? I have something in my data center, I have something in the cloud, OpenShift health, thanks to Kubernetes, I can have consistency for the developers, the operators, the security team, across those environments. Over the last few years, we've been doing a lot in the Kubernetes space as a whole, as the community, to get Kubernetes out to the edge. So one of the nice things, where do containers live Dave? Anywhere Linux does, is Linux going to be out of the edge? Absolutely, it can be a small footprint, we can do a lot with it. There were a lot of vendors that came out with it wasn't quite Kubernetes, they would strip certain things out or make a configuration that was smaller out at the edge, but a lot of times it was something that was just for a developer or something I could play with, and what it would break sometimes was that consistency out at the edge to what my other environments would like to have. And if I'm a company that needs consistency there. So take for example, if I have an AI workload where I need edge, and I need something in the cloud, or in my data center of consistency. So the easy use case that everybody thinks about is autonomous vehicles. We work with a lot of the big car manufacturers, I need to have when my developer build something, and often my training will be done either in the data center or in the public cloud, but I need to be able to push that out to the vehicle itself and let it run. We've actually even got Dave, we've got Kubernetes running up on the ISS. And you want to make sure that we have a consistency. >> The ultimate edge. >> Yeah, so I said, right, it's edge above and beyond the clouds even, we've gone to beyond. So that is something that the industry as a whole has been working at, from a Red Hat standpoint, we can take OpenShift to a really small footprint. Last year we launched was known as single node OpenShift. We have a project called micro shift, which is also fully open source that it has less pieces of the overall environment to be able to fit onto smaller and smaller devices there. But we want to be able to manage all of them consistently because you talked about multi cluster management. Well, what if I have thousands or 10 of thousands of devices out of the edge? I don't necessarily have network, I don't have people, I need to be able to do things from an automated standpoint. And that's where containers and Kubernetes really can shine. And where a lot of effort has been done in general and something specifically, we're working on it, Red Hat, we've had some great customers in the telecommunication space. Talk about like the 5G rollout with this, and industrial companies that need to be able to push out at the edge for these type of solutions. >> So you just kind of answered my next question, but I want to double click on it which was, if I'm in the cloud, why do I need you? And you touched on it because you've got primitives, and APIs, and AWS, Google, and Microsoft, they're different, if you're going to hide the underlying complexity of that, it takes a lot of RND and work, now extend that to a Tesla. You got to make it run there, different use case, but that's kind of what Linux and OpenShift are design to do, so double click on that. >> Yeah, so right. If I look at the discussion you've been having about super clouds is interesting because there are many companies that we work with that do live across multiple environments. So number one, if I'm a developer, if my company came to me and said, hey, you've got all your certifications and you got years of experience running on Amazon, well, we need you to go run over on Google. That developer might switch companies rather than switch clouds because they've got all of their knowledge and skillset, and it's a steep learning curve. So there's a lot of companies that work on, how can we give you tools and solutions that can live across those environments? So I know you mentioned companies like Snowflake, MongoDB, companies like Red Hat, HashiCorp, GitLab, also span all of those environments. There's a lot of work, Dave, to be different than not just, I say, I don't love the term like we're cloud agnostic, which would mean, well, you can use any cloud. >> You can run on any cloud. >> That's not what we're talking about. Look at the legacy that Red Hat has is, Red Hat has decades of running in every customer's data center and pick your X 86 server of choice. And we would have deep relationships when Dell, HP, IBM, Lenovo, you name it, comes out with a new piece of hardware that was different. We would have to make sure that the Linux primitives work from a Red Hat standpoint. Interesting Dave, we're now supporting OpenShift on Azure Stack Hub. And I talked to our head of product management, and I said, we've been running OpenShift in Azure for years, isn't Azure Stack Hub? Isn't that just Azure in your data center. He's like, yeah, but down at the operating system level, we had to change some flags and change some settings and things like that, so what do we know in IT? It's always the yeah, at the high level, it looks the same, it acts the same, it feels the same. >> Seamless. >> It's seamless in everything when you get down to the primitives level, sometimes that we need to be able to do that. I'll tell you Dave, there's things even when I look at A cloud, if I'm in US East One, or US West One, there actually could be some differences in what services are there or how things react, and so therefore we have a lot of deep work that goes into all of those environments, and it's not just Red Hat, we have a marketplace and an ecosystem, we want to make sure you've got API compatibility across all of those. So we are trying to help lift up this entire ecosystem and bring everybody along with it because you set it at the upfront, Kubernetes alone won't do it, oo one vendor gives you an entire, everything that you need for your developer tool chain. There's a lot that goes into this, and that's where we have deep commitment to partnerships. We build out and support lots of ecosystems. And this show itself is very much a community driven show. And, and therefore, that's why Red Hat has a strong presence at it, 'cause that's the open source community and everything that we built on. >> You guys are knee deep in it. You know I wrote down when you were talking about Snowflake and Mongo, HashiCorps, another one, I wrote down Dell, HP, Cisco, Lenovo, that to me, that should be their strategy. NetApp, their strategy should be to basically build out that abstraction layer, the so-called super cloud. So be interesting to see if they're going to be at this show. It requires a lot of R and D number one, number two, to your point, it requires an ecosystem. So you got all these guys, most of them now do in their own as a service, as a service is their own cloud. Their own cloud means you better have an ecosystem that's robust. I want to ask you about, do you ever think about what's next beyond Kubernetes? Or do you feel like, hey, there's just so much headroom in Kubernetes and so many active projects, we got ways to go. >> Yeah, so the Kubernetes itself Dave, should be able to fade into the background some. In many ways it does mirror what happened with Linux. So Linux is just the foundation of everything we have. We would not have the public cloud providers if it wasn't for Linux. I mean, Google, of course you wouldn't have without Linux, Amazon. >> Is on the internet. >> Right, but you might not have a lot of it. So Kubernetes, I think really goes the same way is, it is the foundational layer of what so much of it is built on top of it, and it's not really. So many people think about that portability. Oh, Google's the one that created it, and they wanted to make sure that it was easy if I want to go from the cloud provider that I had to use Kubernetes on Google cloud. And while that is a piece of it, that consistency is more important. And what I can build on top of it, it is really more of a distributed systems challenge that we are solving and that we've been working on in industry now for decades. So that is what we help solve, and what's really nice, containers and Kubernetes, it's less of an abstraction, it's more of new atomic unit of how we build things. So virtualization, I don't know what's underneath, and we spent like a decade fixing the storage networking components underneath so that the LANs matched right, and the network understood what was happening in the virtual machine. The atomic unit of a container, which is what Kubernetes manages is an application or a piece of an application. And therefore that there is less of an abstraction, more of just a rearchitecting of how we build things, and that is part of what is needed, and boy, Dave, the ecosystem, oh my God, yes, we've gone to only three releases a year, but I can tell you our roadmaps are all public on the internet and we talk heavily about them. There is still so many things that just at the basic Kubernetes piece, new architectures, arm devices are now in there, we're now supporting them, Kubernetes can support them too. So there are so many hardware pieces that are coming, so many software devices, the edge, we talked about it a bit, so there's so much that's going on. One of the areas that I love hearing about at the show, we have a community event called OpenShift Comments, which one of the main things of OpenShift Comments, is customers coming to talk about what they've been doing, and not about our products, we're talking about the projects and their journey overall. We've got a at Flenty Show, Airbus and Telefonica, are both going to be talking about what they're doing. We've seen Dave, every industry is going through their digital transformation journey. And it's great to hear straight from them what they're doing, and one of the big pieces in area, we actually spend a bunch of time on that application journey. There's a group of open source projects under what's known as Konveyor, that's conveyor with a K, Konveyor.io. It's modernization in migration. So how do I go from a VM to a container? How do I go from my data center to a cloud? How do I switch between services, open source projects to help with that journey? And, oh my gosh, Dave, I mean, you know in the cloud space, I mean that's what all the SIs and all the consultancies are throwing thousands of people at, is to help us get along that curve of that modernization journey. >> Okay, so let's see May 16th, the week of May 16th is KubeCon in Valencia Spain. theCUBE's going to be there, there was a little bit of a curfuffle on Twitter because the mask mandate was lifted in Spain and people had made plans thinking, okay, it's safe everybody's going to be wearing masks. Well, now I mean, you're going to have to make your own decisions on that front. I mean, you saw that you follow Twitter quite closely, but hey, this is the world we live in. So I'll give you the last word. >> Yeah, we'll see if Twitter still exists by the time we get to that show with. >> Could be private. What happens, but yeah, no, Dave, I'll be participating remotely, it is a hybrid event, so one of the things we'll be watching is, how many people are there in person LA was a pretty small show, core contributors, brought it back to some of the early days that you covered heavily from theCUBE standpoint, how Valencia will be? I know from Red Hat standpoint, we have people there, many of them from Europe, both speaking, we talked about many of the co-located events that are there, so a lot of pieces all participate remotely. So if you stop by the OpenShift commons event, I'll be part of the event just from a hybrid standpoint. And yeah, we've actually got the week before, we've got Red Hat Summit. So it's nice to actually to have back to back weeks. We'd had that a whole bunch of times before I remember, back to back weeks in Boston one year where we had both of those events and everything. That's definitely. >> Connective tissue. >> Keeps us busy there. You've got a whole bunch of travel going on. I'm not doing too much travel just yet, Dave, but it's good to see you and it's great to be connected with community. >> Yeah, so theCUBE will be there. John Furrier is hosting with Keith Townsend. So if you're in Valencia, definitely stop by. Stu thanks so much for coming into theCUBE Studios I appreciate it. >> Thanks, Dave. >> All right, and thank you for watching. We'll see you the week of May 16th in Valencia, Spain. (upbeat music)

>>from around the globe. It's the queue with digital coverage of Docker Con Live 2020 brought to you by Docker and its ecosystem partners. Welcome to the Special Cube coverage of Docker Con 2020. It's a virtual digital event co produced by Docker and the Cube. Thanks for joining us. We have great segment here. Precision cancer medicine really is evolving where the personalization of the data are really going to be important to personalize those treatments based upon unique characteristics of the tumors. This is something that's been a really hot topic, talking point and focus area in the industry. And technology is here to help with two great guests who are using technology. Docker Docker containers a variety of other things to help the process go further along. And we got here spring and who's the bioinformatics research assistant and Camille took Who's a student and in turn, you guys done some compelling work. Thanks for joining this docker con virtualized. Thanks for coming on. >>Thanks for having me. >>So first tell us about yourself and what you guys doing at the Children's Cancer Institute? That's where you're located. What's going on there? Tell us what you guys are doing there? >>Sure, So I built into Cancer Institute. As it sounds, we do a lot of research when it comes to specifically the Children's cancer, though Children a unique in the sense that a lot of the typical treatment we use for adult may or may not work or will have adverse side effects. So what we do is we do all kinds of research. But what lab and I love, which we call a dry love What we do research in silica, using computers at the develop pipelines in order to improve outcomes for Children. >>And what are some of the things you get some to deal with us on the tech side, but also there's the workflow of the patients survival rates, capacity, those constraints that you guys are dealing with. And what are some of the some of the things going on there that you have to deal with and you're trying to improve the outcomes? What specific outcomes were you trying to work through? >>Well, at the moment off of the past decade and all the work you've done in the past decade, we've made a substantial impact on the supply of ability off several high risk cancers in Pediatrics on and we've Got a certain Program, which spent I'll talk about in more depth called the Zero Childhood Cancer Program and essentially that aims to reduce childhood cancer in Children uh, zero. So that, in other words, with the previous five ability 100% on hopefully, no lives will be lost. But that's >>and what do you guys doing specifically? What's your your job? What's your focus? >>Yes, so part of our lab Old computational biology. Uh, we run a processing pipeline, the whole genome and our next guest that, given the sequencing information for the kids, though, we sequence the healthy cells and we sequence there. Two missiles. We analyze them together, and what we do is we find mutations that are causing the cancel that help us determine what treatment. So what? Clinical trials might be most effective for the kids and so specifically Allah books on that pipeline where we run a whole bunch of bioinformatics tools, that area buying thematic basically biology, informatics, and we use the data generated sequel thing in order to extract those mutations that will be the cancer driving mutations that hopefully we can target in order to treat the kids. >>You know, you hear about an attack and you hear Facebook personalization recommendation engines. What the click on you guys are really doing Really? Mawr personalization around treatment recommendations. These kinds of things come into it. Can you share a little bit about what goes on there and and tell us what's happening? >>Well, as you mentioned when you first, some brought us into this, which we're looking at, the the profile of the team itself and that allows us to specialize the medication on the young treatment for that patient on. Essentially, that lets us improve the efficiency and the effectiveness off the treatment, which in turn has an impact on this probability off. >>What are some of the technical things? How did you guys get involved with Docker with Docker fit into all this? >>Yeah, I'm sure Camille will have plenty to bring up on this as well. But, um, yes, it's been quite a project to the the pipeline that we have. Um, we have built on a specific platforms and is looking great. But as with most tools in a lot of things that you develop when your engineers eyes pretty easy for them to become platform specific. And then that kind of stuck there. And you have to re engineer the whole thing kind of of a black hole. That's such a pain to there. So, um, the project that Mikhail in my field working on was actually taking it to the individual's pools we used in the pipeline and Docker rising them individually containing them with the dependencies they need so that we could hook them up anyway. We want So we can configure the pipeline, not just customized based off of the data like we're on the same pipeline and every it even being able to change the pipeline of different things to different kids. Be able to do that easily, um, to be able to run it on different platforms. You know, the fact that we have the choice not only means that we could save money, but if there's a cloud instance that will run an app costal. If there's a platform that you know wanted to collaborate with us and they say, Oh, we have this wholesome data we'd love for you to analyze. It's over hell, like a lot of you know, >>use my tool. It's really great. >>Yeah. And so having portability is a big thing as well. And so I'm sure people can go on about, uh, some of the pain point you having to do authorize all of the different, But, you know, even though they Austin challenges associated with doing it, I think the payoff is massive. >>Dig into this because this is one of the things where you've got a problem statement. You got a real world example. Cancer patients, life or death gets a serious things going on here. You're a tech. You get in here. What's going on? You're like, Okay, this is going to be easy. Just wrangle the data. I throw some compute at it. It's over, right? You know what? How did you take us through the life? They're, you know, living >>right. So a supreme I mentioned before, first and foremost well, in the scale of several 100 terabytes worth of data for every single patient. So obviously we can start to understand just how beneficial it is to move the pipeline to the data, rather the other way around. Um, so much time would be saved. The money costs as well, in terms of actually Docker rising the but the programs that analyze the data, it was quite difficult. And I think Sabrina would agree mate would agree with me on this point. The primary issue was that almost all of the apps we encountered within the pipeline we're very, very heavily dependent on very specific versions off some dependencies, but that they were just build upon so many other different APS on and they were very heavily fined tuned. So docker rising. It was quite difficult because we have to preserve every single version of every single dependency in one instance just to ensure that that was working. And these apps get updated quite Simpson my regularly. So we have to ensure that our doctors would survive. >>So what does it really take? The doc arise your pipeline. >>I mean, it was a whole project. Well, um, myself, Camille, we had a whole bunch of, um, automatic guns doing us over the summer, which was fantastic as well. And we basically have a whole team of lost words like, Okay, here's another automatic pull in the pipeline. You get enterprise, you get to go for a special you get enterprise, they each who individually and then you've been days awake on it, depending on the app. Easier than others. Um, but particularly when it comes to things a lot by a dramatic pools, some of them are very memory hungry. Some of them are very finicky. Some of the, um ah, little stable than others. And so you could spend one day characterizing a tool. And it's done, you know, in a handful of Allah's old. Sometimes it could make a week, and he's just getting this one tool done. And the idea behind the whole team working on it was eventually use. Look through this process, and then you have, um, a docker file set up. Well, anyone to run it on any system. And we know we have an identical set up, which was not sure before, because I remember when I started and I was trying to get the pipeline running on my own machine. Ah, lot of things just didn't look like Oh, you don't have the very specific version of ah that this developer has. 00 that's not working because you don't have this specific girl file that actually has a bug fixes in it. Just for us like, Well, >>he had a lot of limitations before the doctor and doctor analyzing docker container izing it. It was tough. What was it like before and after? >>And we'll probably speak more people full. It was basically, uh, yeah, days or weeks trying to set up on in. Stole everything needed around the whole pipeline. Yeah, it took a long time. And even then, a lot of things, But how you got to set up this? You know, I think speculation of pipeline, all the units, these are the three of the different programs. Will you need this version of obligation? This new upgrade of the tools that work with that version of Oz The old, all kinds of issues that you run into when they schools depend on entirely different things and to install, like, four different versions of python. Three different versions of our or different versions of job on the one machine, you know, just to run it is a bit of >>what has. It's a hassle. Basically, it's a nightmare. And now, after you're >>probably familiar with that, >>Yeah. So what's it like after >>it's a zoo? It supports ridiculously efficient. Like it. It's It's incredible what Michael mentioned before, as soon as we did in stone. Those at the versions of the dependencies. Dhaka keeps them naturally, and we can specify the versions within a docker container. So we can. We can absolutely guarantee that that application will run successfully and effectively every single time. >>Share with me how complicated these pipelines are. Sounds like that's a key piece here for you guys. And you had all the hassles that you do. Your get Docker rised up and things work smoothly. Got that? But tell >>me about >>the pipelines. What's what's so complicated about them? >>Honestly, the biggest complication is all of the connection. It's not a simple as, um, run a from the sea, and then you don't That would be nice, but that know how these things work if you have a network of programs with the output of this, input for another, and you have to run this program before this little this one. But some of the output become input for multiple programs, and by the time you hook the whole thing up, it looks like a gigantic web of applications. The way all the connections, so it's a massive Well, it almost looks like a massive met when you look at it. But having each of the individual tools contained and working means that we can look them all up. And even though it looks complicated, it would be far more complicated if we had that entire pipeline. You know, in a single program like having to code, that whole thing in a single group would be an absolute nightmare. Where is being able to have each of the tools as individual doctors means we just have the link, the input on that book, which is the top. But once you've done that, it means that you know each of the individual pools will run. And if an individual fails, or whatever raised in memory or other issues run into, you can rerun that one individual school re hooks the output into whatever the next program is going without having one massive you know, program will file what it fails midway through, and there's nothing you can do. >>Yeah, you unpack. It really says, Basically, you get the goodness to the work up front, and a lot of goodness come out of it. So this lets comes to the future of health. What are the key takeaways that you guys have from this process? And how does it apply to things that might be helpful to you right around the corner? Or today, like deep learning as you get more tools out there with machine learning and deep learning? Um, we hope there's gonna be some cool things coming out. What do you guys see here? And the insights? >>Well, we have a section of how the computational biologist team that is looking into doing more predictive talks working out, um, basically the risk of people developing can't the risks of kids developing cancel. And that's something you can do when you have all of this data. But that requires a lot of analysis as well. And so one of the benefits of you know being able to have these very moveable pipelines and tools makes it easier to run them on. The cloud makes it easier to shale. You're processing with about researches to the hospitals, just making collaboration easier. Mainz that data sharing becomes a possibility or is before if you have three different organizations. But the daughter in three different places. Um, how do you share that with moving the daughter really feasible. Pascal, can you analyze it in a way that practical and so I don't want one of the benefits of Docker? Is all of these advanced tools coming out? You know, if there's some amazing predicted that comes out that uses some kind of regression little deep learning, whatever. If we wanted to add that being able to dock arise a complex school into a single docker ice makes it less complicated that highlighted the pipeline in the future, if that's something we'd like to do, >>Camille, any thoughts on your end on this? >>Actually, I was Sabrina in my mind for the last point. I was just thinking about scalability definitely is very. It's a huge point because the part about the girls as a technology does any kind of technology that we've got to inspect into the pipeline. As of now, it be significantly easier with the use of Docker. You could just docker rise that technology and then implant that straight into the pipeline. Minimal stress. >>So productivity agility doesn't come home for you guys. Is that resonate? >>Yeah, definitely. >>And you got the collaboration. So there's business benefits, the outcomes. Are there any proof points you could share on some results that you guys are seeing some fruit from the tree, if you will, from all this Goodness. >>Well, one of the things we've been working on is actually a collaboration with those Bio Commons and Katica. They built a platform, specifically the development pipelines. We wanted to go out, and they have support for Docker containers built into the platform, which makes it very easy to push a lot of containers of the platform, look them up and be able to collaborate with them not only to try a new platform without that, but also help them look like a platform to be able to shoot action access data that's been uploaded there as well. But a lot of people we wouldn't have been able to do that if we hadn't. Guys, they're up. It just wouldn't have. Actually, it wouldn't be possible. And now that we have, we've been able to collaborate with them in terms of improving the platform. But also to be able to share and run our pipelines on other data will just pretty good, >>awesome. Well, It's great to have you on the Cube here on Docker Con 2020 from down under. Great Internet connections get great Internet down. They're keeping us remote were sheltering in place here. Stay safe and you guys final question. Could you eat? Share in your own words from a developer? From a tech standpoint, as you're in this core role, super important role, the outcomes are significant and have real impact. What has the technology? What is docker ization done for you guys and for your work environment and for the business share in your own words what it means. A lot of other developers are watching What's your opinion? >>But yeah, I mean, the really practical point is we've massively increased capacity of the pipeline. One thing that been quite fantastic years. We've got a lot of increased. The Port zero child who can program, which means going into the schedule will actually be able to open a program. Every child in Australia that, uh, has cancel will be ableto add them to the program. Where is currently we're only able to enroll kids who are low survivability, right? So about 30% the lowest 30% of the viability we're able to roll over program currently, but having a pipeline where we can just double the memory like that double the amount of battle. Uh, and the fact that we can change the instance is really to just double the capacity trip. The capacity means that now that we have the support to be able to enroll potentially every kid, Mr Leo, um, once we've upgraded the whole pipeline, it means will actually be a code with the amount of Children being enrolled, whereas on the existing pipeline, we're currently that capacity. So doing the upgrade in a really practical way means that we're actually going to be a triple the number of kids in Australia. We can add onto the program which wouldn't have been possible otherwise >>unleashing the limitations and making it totally scalable. Your thoughts as developers watching you're in there, Your hand in your hands, dirty. You built it. It's showing some traction. What's what's your what's your take? What's your view? >>Well, I mean first and foremost locks events. It just feels fantastic knowing that what we're doing is as a substantial and quantify who impact on the on a subset of the population and we're literally saving lives. Analyze with the work that we're doing in terms off developing with With that technology, such a breeze especially compared Teoh I've had minimal contact with what it was like without docker and from the horror stories I've heard, it's It's It's a godsend. It's It's it's really improved The quality of developing. >>Well, you guys have a great mission. And congratulations on the success. Really impact right there. You guys are doing great work and it must feel great. I'm happy for you and great to connect with you guys and continue, you know, using technology to get the outcomes, not just using technology. So Fantastic story. Thank you for sharing. Appreciate >>you having me. >>Thank you. >>Okay, I'm John for we here for Docker Con 2020 Docker con virtual docker con digital. It's a digital event This year we were all shale three in place that we're in the Palo Alto studios for Docker con 2020. I'm John furrier. Stay with us for more coverage digitally go to docker con dot com from or check out all these different sessions And of course, stay with us for this feat. Thank you very much. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah

>> Announcer: Live from San Diego, California, it's theCUBE, covering KubeCon + CloudNativeCon. Brought to you by Red Hat, the Cloud Native Computing Foundation and its ecosystem partners. >> Welcome to the third day of wall-to-wall coverage here at Kubecon + CloudNativeCon 2019 in San Diego. I am your host for the three days of coverage, Stu Miniman. Joining me this morning is Justin Warren. And happy to welcome back to the program, Erin Boyd who's a senior principal software engineer at Red Hat. Erin, thanks so much for joining us. >> Thanks for having me. >> All right, so we had a chance to catch up in Barcelona on theCUBE there. Storage is definitely one of the faster moving areas of this ecosystem over the last two years. Why don't we start with, really, the event? So, you know, as I said, we're in day three but day zero there were a whole lot of things we had. Some of your peers at Red Hat have talked about OpenShift Commons, but storage, to my understanding had a couple of things going on. Why don't you share with our audience a little bit of that? >> Sure, so we had a SIG face-to-face for Kubernetes, it was probably one of the best attended. We had to cap the number of attendees, so about 60 different people came to talk about the future of Kubernetes in storage, and what we need to be doing to meet our customers' needs. In conjunction with that, there was a parallel session called CNS Days, which is Container Native Storage Days. That event is very customer focused, so I really enjoyed bouncing between the two of them. To go from the hypothetical, programming, architecture view, straight to what customers in the enterprise are looking at and doing, and what their real needs are. >> So from that SIG, can you actually share a little bit of where we are, where some of the requests are? We know storage is never one way to fix it, there's been some debates, there's a couple different ways to do... I mean, traditional storage, you've got block, file, and object. Cloud storage, there are more options in cloud storage today than there was, if I was to configure a server, or buy a storage array in my own data center. So where are we, what are those asks? What's on the roadmap there? >> Right, so I think for the past five years, we've been really focused on being mindful of what APIs are common across all the vendors. I think we want to ensure that we're not excluding any vendors from being part of this ecosystem. And so, with that, we've created the basis of things like persistent volumes, persistent volumes claims, storage classes to automate that, storage quotas to be able to have management and control over it. So I think now we're looking to the next evolution of... As the model's maturing, and people are actually running stateful applications on Kubernetes, we need to be addressing their needs. So things like snapshotting, eventually volume cloning, which has just gone in, and migrating. All these type of things that exist within the data plane are going to be the next evolution of things we look at in the SIG. >> Yeah, so one criticism that's been mentioned about Kubernetes a few times, that one, it's a bit complicated. But also, it didn't really deal that well with stateful sets. Stateful data management has always been, it's been a little bit lacking. That seems to have pretty much been sorted out now. As you mentioned, there's a lot more work being done on storage operators. But you're talking about some of these data management features that operators from other paradigms are kind of used to being there. When you're thinking about moving workloads to Kubernetes, or putting in new workloads on Kubernetes, if you're unsure about, "Well, will I be able to operate this in the same way that I did things before?" How do you think people should be thinking about those kind of data services in Kubernetes? >> So I think it's great that you mentioned operators. Because that was one of the key things when Rook came into the landscape, to be able to lower the complexity of taking something that requires physical storage and compute, geography, node selection. All those things, it helped people who were used to just the cloud model. I create a PVC, it's a request for storage, Amazon magically fulfills it. I don't know what's backing it. To be able to take these more complex storage systems and deploy them within the ecosystem, it also does a good job supporting our Brownfield customers, because not every customer that's coming to Kubernetes is green. So it's important that we understand that some customers want to keep their data on-prem, maybe burst to the cloud to leverage those services, but then keep their data close to home. So operators help facilitate that. >> Yeah, Erin, I hesitate a little bit to ask this, but I'm wondering if you can do a little compare, contrast for us, for what the industry had done back in OpenStack days? When I looked at storage, every traditional storage company certified their environment for OpenStack. On a storage standpoint, it feels like a different story to me when I hear about the ecosystem of operators in OpenStack. So I know you know this space, so maybe you can give us a little bit of what we learned in the past. What's similar, what's different? >> Right, well I think one of the benefits is we have a lot of the same key players. As you may know, OpenShift has pivoted from Gluster to Ceph, Ceph being the major backer of OpenStack. So we're able to take some of that technical debt, and learn our lessons from things we could improve, and apply those things within Kubernetes. I just think that it's a little slower migration, because in OpenStack, like you said, we had certification, there were different drivers. And we're trying to learn from, maybe, I wouldn't even call those mistakes, but, how can we better automate this? What can we do from an operational perspective to make it easier? >> Well I think because one of the... It felt like we were kind of taking some older models and... I'm testing it, I'm adding it. The ecosystem for operators here is different. Many of these, we're talking very much software-driven solutions. It's built for container architectures, so it's understandable that it might take a little bit longer because it's a different paradigm. >> Right, well, and I think the certification kind of... It wasn't an inhibitor but it certainly took a lot of time. And I think our take was on... We used to have all the storage providers be entry providers within Kubernetes. And with CSI, we have since started to redo the plugins and the sidecars, and move that out of core. So then the certification kind of falls outside of that instead of being more tightly wound into the platform. And I think it will allow us to have a lot more flexibility. Instead of waiting on each release, vendors can create operators, certify them themselves, have them in their own CSI driver, and move at the pace that they need to move. >> So how do you balance that need for Kubernetes to be a common operating platform that people can build on with each vendor's desire to provide their own unique capabilities that they think that they do particularly well? That's why they charge the money that they do, because they think that theirs is the best storage ever. How do you balance that tension between the need for a standard platform and to make it interoperable, but still allowing the flexibility for people to have their own kind of innovation in there? >> So when we created the storage class, for instance, to be able to create a service level over storage, to be able to provide the provisioner that we're going to use, we made the specification of that section completely opaque. And what that allowed us to do is that when vendors wrote their provisioners and now their CSI drivers, allowed them to feed in different attributes of the storage that they want to leverage, that don't necessarily have to be in core Kubernetes. So it provided a huge amount of flexibility on that. The other side of that, though, is, the feeback we get from real users is "I need backup and recovery, and I need DR, and I need that across the platform." So I really think as we look to scale this out, we have to be looking at the commonalities between all storage and bringing those APIs into Kubernetes. >> One of the things I've really liked to see in this ecosystem over the last year or so, and really highlighted at this show, we're talking a lot more about workloads and applications and how those... What works today and where we're growing. Can you speak a little bit from your world as to where we are, what's working great, what customers are deploying, and a little bit, the road map of where we still need to go? >> Sure, I think workloads are key. I mean, I think that we have to focus on the actual end-to-end delivery of that, and so we have to figure out a way that we can make the data more agile, and create interfaces to really enable that, because it's very unlikely that an enterprise company is going to rely on one cloud or stay with one cloud, or want their data in one cloud. They're going to want to have the flexibility to leverage that. So as we enable those workloads, some are very complex. We started with, "Hey, I just want to containerize my application and get it running. Now I want to have some sort of state, which is persistent storage, and now I want to be able to scale that out across n number of clusters." That's where the workloads become really important. And long term, where we need policy to automate that. My pod goes down, I restart it, it needs to know that because of, maybe, the data that that workload's producing, it can only stay in this geographical region. >> Yeah, we talk about multicloud. You mentioned data protection, data protection is something I need to do across the board. Security is something I need to do across the board. My automation needs to take all that into account. How's Red Hat helping customers get their arms around that challenge? >> Yeah, so I think Red Hat really does take a holistic view in making sure that we provide a very consistent, secure platform. I think that's one of the things that you see when you come on to OpenShift, for instance, or OKR, that you're seeing security tightened a little bit more, to ensure that you're running in the best possible way that you can, to protect your data. And then, the use of Rook Ceph, for instance, Ceph provides that universal backplane, where if you're going to have encryption or anything like that, you know it's going to be the same across that. >> It sounds like there's an opportunity here for people new to Kubernetes who have been doing things in a previous way. There's a little bit of reticence from this community to understand enterprise, they're like, "Well, actually, you're kind of doing it wrong. It's slow and inflexible." There's actually a lot of lessons that we've learned in enterprise, particularly around these workloads. Having security, having backup in DR. In the keynote this morning, there was a lot of discussion about the security that either is in Kubernetes, and some parts it's kind of lacking. I think there's a lot that both of these communities can learn from each other, so I'm seeing a lot of moves of late to be a little bit more welcoming to some people who are coming to Kubernetes from other ecosystems. To be able to bring the ideas that they have that... We've already learned these lessons before, we can take some of that knowledge and bring it into Kubernetes to help us to do that better. Do you see Red Hat bringing a lot of that expereience in its work... Red Hat's been around for quite some time now, so you've done a lot of this already. Are you bringing all of that knowledge into Kubernetes and sharing it with the ecosystem? >> Absolutley, and just like Stu pointed out, I mean, OpenStack was a big part of our evolution, and security within RHEL, and I think we absolutely should take those lessons learned and look to how we do protect our customers' data, and make sure that the platform, Kubernetes itself and as we evolve OpenShift, can provide that, and ways that we can certify that. >> Erin, you're meeting with a lot of customers. You were talking about the Day Zero thing. What's top of mind for your customers? We talk about, that Kubernetes has crossed the chasm but to get the vast majority, there's still lots of work to do. We need to, as an industry, make things simpler. What's working well, and what are some of the challenges from the customers that you've talked to? >> So I think, if you walk in, across the hall, and you see how many vendors are there, it's trying to get a handle on what I should even be doing. And as the co-lead of the CNCF Storage SIG, I think that's one of the initiatives that we take very seriously. So in addition to a storage whitepaper, we've been working on use cases that define, when should I use a data store? When should I use object? Why would I want to use file? And then really taking these real-world examples, creating use cases and actual implementations so someone can, "Oh, that's similar to my workload." Here are some tools to accelerate understanding how to get that set up. And also creating those guard rails from an architectural standpoint. You don't want to go down this path, that's not right for your workload. So we're hoping to at least provide an education around containerized storage that'll help customers. >> Yeah, I'm just curious. I think back ten years ago, I was working for a large storage company. We were having some of these same conversations. So is it very different now in the containerized, multicloud world? Or are some of the basic decision tree discussions around block, file, and object and application the same as we might have been having a decade ago? >> I think we're starting to just touch on those, and I'm glad that you brought up object. That was one of the things I talked about in Barcelona, and we actually talked about at the face-to-face. To me, it's kind of the missing piece of storage today in Kubernetes, and I think we're finally starting to see that more customers are asking for that and realizing that's an important workload to be able to support at its core. So I think, yes, we're having the same conversations again, but certainly in a different context. >> Yeah, I mean, back in the day, it was, the future is object but we don't know how we'd get there. If you look behind the scenes in most public clouds, object's running a lot of what's there. All right, Erin, I want to give you the final word. KubeCon 2019, from that storage perspective. What should people watching take away? >> That we're only beginning with storage, yeah. We still have a lot of work to do, but I think it's a wonderful community and vibrant, and I think there'll be a lot of changes in the coming years. >> All right. Well, definitely a vibrant ecosystem. Erin, thank you so much for all the updates. We'll be back with more coverage here, for Justin Warren. I'm Stu Miniman. Thank you for watching theCUBE. (techno music)

>>Live from San Diego, California It's the Q covering Koopa and Cloud Native Cot brought to you by Red Cloud, Native Computing Pounding and its ecosystem March. >>Welcome back to the Cube here at Q. Khan Club native Khan, 2019 in San Diego, California Instrumental in my co host is Jon Cryer and first of all, happy to welcome back to the program. Diane Mueller, who is the technical of the tech lead of cloud native technology. I'm sorry. I'm getting the wrong That's director of community development Red Hat, because renew. Goodbye is the technical lead of cognitive technologies at in video game to the end of day one. I've got three days. I gotta make sure >>you get a little more Red Bull in the conversation. >>All right, well, there's definitely a lot of energy. Most people we don't even need Red Bull here because we're a day one. But Diane, we're going to start a day zero. So, you know, you know, you've got a good group of community of geeks when they're like Oh, yeah, let me fly in a day early and do like 1/2 day or full day of deep dives. There So the Red Hat team decided to bring everybody on a boat, I guess. >>Yeah. So, um, open ships Commons gathering for this coup con we hosted at on the inspiration Hornblower. We had about 560 people on a boat. I promised them that it wouldn't leave the dock, but we deal still have a little bit of that weight going on every time one of the big military boats came by. And so people were like a little, you know, by the end of the day, but from 8 a.m. in the morning till 8 p.m. In the evening, we just gathered had some amazing deep dives. There was unbelievable conversations onstage offstage on we had, ah, wonderful conversation with some of the new Dev ops folks that have just come on board. That's a metaphor for navigation and Coop gone. And and for events, you know, Andrew Cliche for John Willis, the inevitable Crispin Ella, who runs Open Innovation Labs, and J Bloom have all just formed the global Transformation Office. I love that title on dhe. They're gonna be helping Thio preach the gospel of Cultural Dev ops and agile transformation from a red hat office From now going on, there was a wonderful conversation. I felt privileged to actually get to moderate it and then just amazing people coming forward and sharing their stories. It was a great session. Steve Dake, who's with IBM doing all the SDO stuff? Did you know I've never seen SDO done so well, Deployment explains so well and all of the contents gonna be recorded and up on Aaron. We streamed it live on Facebook. But I'm still, like reeling from the amount of information overload. And I think that's the nice thing about doing a day zero event is that it's a smaller group of people. So we had 600 people register, but I think was 560 something. People show up and we got that facial recognition so that now when they're traveling through the hallways here with 12,000 other people, that go Oh, you were in the room. I met you there. And that's really the whole purpose for comments. Events? >>Yeah, I tell you, this is definitely one of those shows that it doesn't take long where I say, Hey, my brain is full. Can I go home. Now. You know I love your first impressions of Q Khan. Did you get to go to the day zero event And, uh, what sort of things have you been seeing? So >>I've been mostly I went to the lightning talks, which were amazing. Anything? Definitely. There. A number of shout outs to the GPU one, of course. Uh, friend in video. But I definitely enjoyed, for example, of the amazing D. M s one, the one about operators. And generally all of them were very high quality. >>Is this your first Q? Khan, >>I've been there. I've been a year. This is my third con. I've been accused in Europe in the past. Send you an >>old hat old hand at this. Well, before we get into the operator framework and I wanna love to dig into this, I just wanted to ask one more thought. Thought about open shift, Commons, The Commons in general, the relationship between open shift, the the offering. And then Okay, the comments and okay, D and then maybe the announcement about about Okay. Dee da da i o >>s. Oh, a couple of things happened yesterday. Yesterday we dropped. Okay, D for the Alfa release. So anyone who wants to test that out and try it out it's an all operators based a deployment of open shift, which is what open ship for is. It's all a slightly new architectural deployment methodology based on the operator framework, and we've been working very diligently. Thio populate operator hub dot io, which is where all of the upstream projects that have operators like the one that Reynolds has created for in the videos GP use are being hosted so that anyone could deploy them, whether on open shift or any kubernetes so that that dropped. And yesterday we dropped um, and announced Open Sourcing Quay as project quay dot io. So there's a lot of Io is going on here, but project dia dot io is, um, it's a fulfillment, really, of a commitment by Red Hat that whenever we do an acquisition and the poor folks have been their acquired by Cora West's and Cora Weston acquired by Red Hat in an IBM there. And so in the interim, they've been diligently working away to make the code available as open source. And that hit last week and, um, to some really interesting and users that are coming up and now looking forward to having them to contribute to that project as well. But I think the operator framework really has been a big thing that we've been really hearing, getting a lot of uptake on. It's been the new pattern for deploying applications or service is on getting things beyond just a basic install of a service on open shift or any kubernetes. And that's really where one of the exciting things yesterday on we were talking, you know, and I were talking about this earlier was that Exxon Mobil sent a data scientist to the open ship Commons, Audrey Resnick, who gave this amazing presentation about Jupiter Hub, deeper notebooks, deploying them and how like open shift and the advent of operators for things like GP use is really helping them enable data scientists to do their work. Because a lot of the stuff that data signs it's do is almost disposable. They'll run an experiment. Maybe they don't get the result they want, and then it just goes away, which is perfect for a kubernetes workload. But there are other things you need, like a Jeep use and work that video has been doing to enable that on open shift has been just really very helpful. And it was It was a great talk, but we were talking about it from the first day. Signs don't want to know anything about what's under the hood. They just want to run their experiments. So, >>you know, let's like to understand how you got involved in the creation of the operator. >>So generally, if we take a step back and look a bit at what we're trying to do is with a I am l and generally like EJ infrastructure and five G. We're seeing a lot of people. They're trying to build and run applications. Whether it's in data Center at the and we're trying to do here with this operator is to bring GPS to enterprise communities. And this is what we're working with. Red Hat. And this is where, for example, things like the op Agrestic A helps us a lot. So what we've built is this video Gee, few operator that space on the upper air sdk where it wants us to multiple phases to in the first space, for example, install all the components that a data scientist were generally a GPU cluster of might want to need. Whether it's the NVIDIA driver, the container runtime, the community's device again feast do is as you go on and build an infrastructure. You want to be able to have the automation that is here and, more importantly, the update part. So being able to update your different components, face three is generally being able to have a life cycle. So as you manage multiple machines, these are going to get into different states. Some of them are gonna fail, being able to get from these bad states to good states. How do you recover from them? It's super helpful. And then last one is monitoring, which is being able to actually given sites dr users. So the upper here is decay has helped us a lot here, just laying out these different state slips. And in a way, it's done the same thing as what we're trying to do for our customers. The different data scientists, which is basically get out of our way and allow us to focus on core business value. So the operator, who basically takes care of things that are pretty cool as an engineer I lost due to your election. But it doesn't really help me to focus on like my core business value. How do I do with the updates, >>you know? Can I step back one second, maybe go up a level? The problem here is that each physical machine has only ah limited number of NVIDIA. GPU is there and you've got a bunch of containers that maybe spawning on different machines. And so they have to figure out, Do I have a GPU? Can I grab one? And if I'm using it, I assume I have to reserve it and other people can't use and then I have to give it up. Is that is that the problem we're solving here? So this is >>a problem that we've worked with communities community so that like the whole resource management, it's something that is integrated almost first class, citizen in communities, being able to advertise the number of deep, use their your cluster and used and then being able to actually run or schedule these containers. The interesting components that were also recently added are, for example, the monitoring being able to see that a specific Jupiter notebook is using this much of GP utilization. So these air supercool like features that have been coming in the past two years in communities and which red hat has been super helpful, at least in these discussions pushing these different features forward so that we see better enterprise support. Yeah, >>I think the thing with with operators and the operator lifecycle management part of it is really trying to get to Day two. So lots of different methodologies, whether it's danceable or python or job or or UH, that's helm or anything else that can get you an insult of a service or an application or something. And in Stan, she ate it. But and the operator and we support all of that with SD case to help people. But what we're trying to do is bridge the to this day to stuff So Thea, you know, to get people to auto pilot, you know, and there's a whole capacity maturity model that if you go to operator hab dot io, you can see different operators are a different stages of the game. So it's been it's been interesting to work with people to see Theo ah ha moment when they realize Oh, I could do this and then I can walk away. And then if that pod that cluster dies, it'll just you know, I love the word automatically, but they, you know, it's really the goal is to help alleviate the hands on part of Day two and get more automation into the service's and applications we deploy >>right and when they when they this is created. Of course it works well with open shift, but it also works for any kubernetes >>correct operator. HAB Daddio. Everything in there runs on any kubernetes, and that's really the goal is to be ableto take stuff in a hybrid cloud model. You want to be able to run it anywhere you want, so we want people to be unable to do it anywhere. >>So if this really should be an enabler for everything that it's Vinny has been doing to be fully cloud native, Yes, >>I think completely arable here is this is a new attack. Of course, this is a bit there's a lot of complexity, and this is where we're working towards is reducing the complexity and making true that people there. Dan did that a scientist air machine learning engineers are able to focus on their core business. >>You watch all of the different service is in the different things that the data scientists are using. They don't I really want to know what's under under the hood. They would like to just open up a Jupiter Hub notebook, have everything there. They need, train their models, have them run. And then after they're done, they're done and it goes away. And hopefully they remember to turn off the Jeep, use in the woods or wherever it is, and they don't keep getting billed for it. But that's the real beauty of it is that they don't have to worry so much anymore about that. And we've got a whole nice life cycle with source to image or us to I. And they could just quickly build on deploy its been, you know, it's near and dear to my heart, the machine learning the eyesight of stuff. It is one of the more interesting, you know, it's the catchy thing, but the work was, but people are really doing it today, and it's been we had 23 weeks ago in San Francisco, we had a whole open ship comments gathering just on a I and ML and you know, it was amazing to hear. I think that's the most redeeming thing or most rewarding thing rather for people who are working on Kubernetes is to have the folks who are doing workloads come and say, Wow, you know, this is what we're doing because we don't get to see that all the time. And it was pretty amazing. And it's been, you know, makes it all worthwhile. So >>Diane Renaud, thank you so much for the update. Congratulations on the launch of the operators and look forward to hearing more in the future. >>All right >>to >>be here >>for John Troy runs to minimum. More coverage here from Q. Khan Club native Khan, 2019. Thanks for watching. Thank you.

>> Live from Barcelona, Spain. It's theCUBE! Covering KubeCon, CloudNativeCon, Europe 2019. Brought to you by Red Hat, the Cloud Native Computing Foundation, and Ecosystem Partners. >> Hi, and welcome back. This is KubeCon, CloudNativeCon 2019 here in Barcelona. 7700 in attendance according to the CNCF foundation. I'm Stu Miniman and my co-host for this week is Corey Quinn. And happy to welcome back to the program, a cube-i-lom Rob Szumski, who's the Product Manager for Red Hat OpenShift. Rob, thanks so much for joining us >> Happy to be here. >> All right, so a couple of weeks ago, we had theCUBE in Boston. You know, short drive for me, didn't have to take a flight as opposed to... I'm doing okay with the jet lag here, but Red Hat Summit was there. And it was a big crowd there, and the topic we're going to talk about with you is operators. And it was something we talked about a lot, something about the ecosystem. But let's start there. For our audience that doesn't know, What is an operator? How does it fit into this whole cloud-native space in this ecosystem? >> (Corey) And where can you hire one? >> (laughs) So there's software programs first of all. And the idea of an operator is everything it takes to orchestrate one of these complex distributor applications, databases, messaging queues, machine learning services. They all are distinct components that all need to be life-cycled. And so there's operational expertise around that, and this is something that might have been in a bash script before, you have a Wiki page. It's just in your head, and so it's putting that into software so that you can stamp out mini copies of that. So the operational expertise from the experts, so you want to go to the folks that make MongoDB for Mongo, for Reddits, for CouchBase, for TensorFlow, whatever it is. Those organizations can embed that expertise, and then take your user configuration and turn that into Kubernetes. >> Okay, and is there automation in that? When I hear the description, it reminds me a little bit of robotic process automation, or RPA, which you talk about, How can I harem them? RPA is, well there's certain jobs that are rather repetitive and we can allow software to do that, so maybe that's not where it is. But help me to put it into the >> No, I think it is. >> Okay, awesome. >> When you think about it, there's a certain amount of toil involved in operating anything and then there's just mistakes that are made by humans when you're doing this. And so you would rather just automate away that toil so you can spend you human capitol on higher level tasks. So that's what operator's all about. >> (Stu) All right. Great. >> Do you find that operator's are a decent approach to taking things that historically would not have been well-suited for autoscaling, for example, because there's manual work that has to happen whenever a no-joinser leaves a swarm. Is that something operators tend to address more effectively? Or am I thinking about this slightly in the wrong direction? >> Yeah, so you can do kind of any Kubernetes event you can hook into, so if your application cares about nodes coming and leaving, for example, this is helpful for operators that are operating the infrastructure itself, which OpenShift has under the hood. But you might care about when new name spaces are created or this pod goes away or whatever it is. You can kind of hook into everything there. >> So, effectively it becomes a story around running stateful things in what was originally designed for stateless containers. >> Yeah, that can help you because you care about nodes going away because your storage was on it, for example. Or, now I need to re-balance that. Whatever that type of thing is it's really critical for running stateful workloads. >> Okay, maybe give us a little bit of context as to the scope of operators and any customer examples you have that could help us add a little bit of concreteness to it. >> Yeah, they're designed to run almost anything. Every common workload that you can think about on an OpenShift cluster, you've got your messaging queues. We have a product that uses an operator, AMQ Streams. It's Kafka. And we've got folks that heavily use a Prometheus operator. I think there's a quote that's been shared around about one of our customer's Ticketmaster. Everybody needed some container native monitoring and everybody could figure out Prometheus on their own. Or they could use operator. So, they were running, I think 300-some instances of Prometheus and dev and staging and this team, that team, this person just screwing around with something over here. So, instead of being experts in Prometheus, they just use the operator then they can scale out very quickly. >> That's great because one of the challenges in this ecosystem, there's so many pieces of it. We always ask, how many companies need to be expert on not just Kubernetes, but any of these pieces. How does this tie into the CNCF, all the various projects that are available? >> I think you nailed it. You have to integrate all this stuff all together and that's where the value of something like OpenShift comes at the infrastructure layer. You got to pick all your networking and storage and your DNS that you're going to use and wire all that together and upgrade that. Lifecycle it. The same thing happens at a higher level, too. You've got all these components, getting your Fluentd pods down to operating things like Istio on Service Mesh's, serviceless workloads. All this stuff needs to be configured and it's all pretty complex. It's moving so fast, nobody can be an expert. The operator's actually the expert, embedded from those teams which is really awesome. >> You said something before we got started. A little bit about a certification program for operators. What is that about? >> We think of it as the super set of our community operators. We've got the TensorFlow community, for example, curates an operator. But, for companies that want to go to market jointly with Red Hat, we have a certification program that takes any of their community content, or some of their enterprise distributions and makes sure that it's well-tested on OpenShift and can be jointly supported by OpenShift in that partner. If you come to Red Hat with a problem with a MongoDB operator, for example, we can jointly solve that problem with MongoDB and ultimately keep your workload up and keep it running. We've got that times a bunch of databases and all kinds of servers like that. You can access those directly from OpenShift which is really exciting. One-click install of a production-ready Mongo cluster. You don't need to dig through a bunch of documentation for how that works. >> All right, so Rob, are all of these specific only to OpenShift, or will they work with flavors of Kubernetes? >> Most of the operators work just against the generic Kubernetes cluster. Some of them also do hook into OpenShift to use some of our specialized security primitives and things like that. That's where you get a little bit more value on OpenShift, but you're just targeting Kubernetes at the end of the day. >> What do you seeing customers doing with this specifically? I guess, what user stories are you seeing that is validating that this is the right direction to go in? >> It's a number of different buckets. The first one is seeing folks running services internally. You traditionally have a DBA team that maybe runs the shared database tier and folks are bringing that the container native world from their VM's that they're used to. Using operators to help with that and so now it's self-service. You have a dedicated cluster infrastructure team that runs clusters and gives out quota. Then, you're just eating into that quota to run whatever workloads that you want in an operator format. That's kind of one bucket of it. Then, you see folks that are building operators for internal operation. They've got deep expertise on one team, but if you're running any enterprise today especially like a large scale Ecommerce shop, there's a number of different services. You've got caching tier, and load balancing tiers. You've got front-ends, you've got back-ends, you've got queues. You can build operators around each one of those, so that those teams even when they're sharing internally, you know, hey where's the latest version of your stack? Here's the operator, go to town. Run it in staging QA, all that type of stuff. Then, lastly, you see these open source communities building operators which is really cool. Something like TensorFlow, that community curates an operator to get you one consistent install, so everyone's not innovating on 30 different ways to install it and you're actually using it. You're using high level stuff with TensorFlow. >> It's interesting to lay it out. Some of these okay, well, a company is doing that because it's behind something. Others you're saying it's a community. Remind me, just Red Hat's long history of helping to give if you will, adult supervision for all of these changes that are happening in the world out there. >> It's a fast moving landscape and some tools that we have are our operator SDK are helping to tame some of that. So, you can get quickly up and running, building an operator whether you are one of those communities, you are a commercial vendor, you're one of our partners, you're one of our customers. We've got tools for everybody. >> Anything specific in the database world that's something we're seeing, that Cambrian explosion in the database world? >> Yeah, I think that folks are finally wrapping their heads around that Kubernetes is for all workloads. And, to make people feel really good about that, you need something like an operator that's got this extremely well-tested code path for what happens when these databases do fail, how do I fail it over? It wasn't just some person that went in and made this. It's the expert, the folks that are committing to MongoDB, to CouchBase, to MySQL, to Postgres. That's the really exciting thing. You're getting that expertise kind of as extension of your operations team. >> For people here at the show, are there sessions about operators? What's the general discussion here at the show for your team? >> There's a ton. Even too many to mention. There's from a bunch of different partners and communities that are curating operators, talking about best practices for managing upgrades of them. Users, all that kind of stuff. I'm going to be giving a keynote, kind of an update about some of stuff we've been talking about here later on this evening. It's all over the place. >> What do you think right now in the ecosystem is being most misunderstood about operators, if anything? >> I think that nothing is quite misunderstood, it's just wrapping your head around what it means to operate applications in this manner. Just like Kubernetes components, there's this desired state loop that's in there and you need to wrap your head around exactly what needs to be in that. You're declarative state is just the Kubernetes API, so you can look at desired and actual and make that happen, just like all the Kub components. So, just looking at a different way of thinking. We had a panel yesterday at the OpenShift Commons about operators and one of the questions that had some really interesting answers was, What did you understand about your software by building an operator? Cause sometimes you need to tease apart some of these things. Oh, I had hard coded configuration here, one group shared that their leader election was not actually working correctly in every single incidences and their operator forced them to dig into that and figure out why. So, I think it's a give and take that's pretty interesting when you're building one of these things. >> Do you find that customers are starting to rely on operators to effectively run their own? For example, MongoDB inside of their Kubernetes clusters, rather than depending upon a managed service offering provided by their public cloud vendor, for example. Are you starting to see people effectively reducing public cloud to baseline primitives at a place to run containers, rather than the higher level services that are starting to move up the stack? >> A number of different reasons for that too. You see this for services if you find a bug in that service, for example, you're just out of luck. You can't go introspect the versions, you can't see how those components are interacting. With an operator you have an open source stack, it's running on your cluster in your infrastructure. You can go introspect exactly what's going on. The operator has that expertise built in, so it's not like you can screw around with everything. But, you have much more insight into what's going on. Another thing you can't get with a cloud service is you can't run it locally. So, if you've got developers that are doing development on an airplane, or just want to have something local so it's running fast, you can put your whole operator stack right on your laptop. Not something you can do with a hosted service which is really cool. Most of these are opens source too, so you can go see exactly how the operator's built. It's very transparent, especially if you're going to trust this for a core part of the infrastructure. You really want to know what's going on under the hood. >> Just to double check, all this can run on OpenShift? It is agnostic to where it lives, whether public cloud or data center? >> Exactly. These are truly hybrid services, so if you're migrating your database to here, for example, over now you have a truly hybrid just targeting Kubernetes environment. You can move that in any infrastructure that you like. This is one of the things that we see OpenShift customers do. Some of them want to be cloud-to-cloud, cloud-to-on-prem, different environments on prem only, because you've got database workloads that might not be leaving or a mainframe you need to tie into, a lot of our FSI customers. Operators can help you there where you can't move some of those workloads. >> Cloud-on-prem makes a fair bit of sense to me. One thing I'm not seeing as much of in the ecosystem is cloud-to-cloud. What are you seeing that's driving that? >> I think everybody has their own cloud that they prefer for whatever reasons. I think it's typically not even cost. It's tooling and cultural change. And, so you kind of invest in one of those. I think people are investing in technologies that might allow them to leave in the future, and operators and Kubernetes being one of those important things. But, that doesn't meant that they're not perfectly happy running on one cloud versus the other, running Kubernetes on top of that. >> Rob, really appreciate all the updates on operators. Thanks so much for joining us again. >> Absolutely. It's been fun. >> Good luck on the keynote. >> Thank you. >> For Corey Quinn, I'm Stu Miniman, back with more coverage two days live from wall to wall here at KubeCon CloudNativeCon 2019 in Barcelona, Spain. Thanks for watching.

>> Live from Seattle, Washington, it's the Cube, covering KubeCon and Cloud Native Con North America 2018. Brought to you by Red Hat, the Cloud Native Computing Foundation and its ecosystem partners. >> Welcome back everyone. We are live in Seattle for KubeCon 2018, Cloud Native Con. It's the Cube, I'm John Furrier, your host with Stu Miniman. Our next guest is Ashesh Badani, who is the Vice-President and General Manager of Cloud Platforms at Red Hat. Great to see you, welcome back to the Cube. >> Thanks for having me on. Always good to be back. >> So you guys, again, we talk every year with you. It's almost like a check-in. So what's new? You got some big, obviously, the news about the IBM. We don't really want to get into that detail. I know you just a stop on that because it's already out there. But you guys had great success with platformers of service. Now you got the growth of Kubecon and Cloud Native Con, 8000 attendees and users. There's uptake. What's the update on the Red Had side? >> Yeah, we're excited. Excited to be back at Kubecon. It's bigger and better than it's ever been, I think so. That's fantastic. We've been investing in this community for over four years now, since 2014. Really, from the earliest days. Based the entire platform on it. Continue growing that, adding lots of customers across the world. And I think what's really been gratifying for us to see is just the diversity of participants. Both in user perspective as well as the wider ecosystem. So whether you're a storage player, a networking player, management, marketing, what have you. Everything sort of building around this ecosystem. I think we're creating a great amount of value and we're seeing diverse applications being built. >> So you guys have been good then on (mumbles), good timing, a lot of things are going on. This show is an open-source community, right. And that's been a great thing. This is kind of where the end users come from. But two other personas come in that we're seeing participate heavily. The IT pro, the IT expert, and then the classic developer. So you have kind of a melting pot of how this is kind of horizontally connecting. You guys have been successful in the IT side. Where is this impacting the end users?6 How is this open-source movement impacting IT, specifically, and at the end of the day, the developers who are writing code? Have to get more stuff out. What's your thoughts? >> So, we hosted OpenShift Commons yesterday. OpenShift Commons, for the the folks who don't know, is our gathering of participants within the larger OpenShift community. We had lots of end users come and talk about the reason they're adopting a Kubernetes-based platform is to get greater productivity. So for example, if you're someone like Progressive Insurance, an established organization, how do you release applications quicker? How do you make your developers more productive? How do you enable them to have more languages, tools, frameworks at their disposal? To be able to compete in this world where you've got start-ups, you've got other companies trying to compete aggressively with you. I think it's a big dent here, right? It's not just for if you work traditional IT. But it's for if you were a company of all sizes. >> When you talk about customers, every customer is different. You've got, you look at IT, everything is additive, it tends to be a bit of a heterogeneous mess when you get there. Help connect for us what are you hearing from customers? How does, not just Kubernetes, but everything going on here in the Cloud Native environment? How is it helping them? How is it changing the way that they do their business and how's Red Hat involved? >> So one thing we've been noticing is that Hybrid Cloud is here and here to stay. So we've consistently been hearing this from customers. They've invested lots of money and time and energy, skills, in their existing environments. And they want to take advantage of public clouds. But they want to do that with flexibility, with portability, to bring to bear. What we've been trying to do is focus on exactly that. How do we help solve that problem and provide an abstraction. How do you provide primitives. So, for example, we announced our support of Knative, and how we'll make that available as part of OpenShift. Why's that? Well, how can we provide Serverless primitives within the platform so folks can have the flexibility to be able to adopt next-generation technologies. But to be able to do that consistently regardless of where they deploy. >> So, I love that. Talk about meeting the customers there. One of the things that really strikes me, there's so much change going on in the industry. And that's an area that Red Hat has a couple decades of experience. Maybe help explain how Red Hat in bringing some of that enterprise, oversight. Just like they've done for Linux for a long time. >> Yeah, yeah. Stu, you're following us very closely, as are you John, and the team at the Cube. We're trying to embrace that change as it comes upon us. So, I think the last time I was here, I was here with Alex Polvi of Core OS. Red Hat acquired Core OS in January. >> Big deal. >> Yeah, big acquisition for us. And now we're starting to see the fruits of some of that labor. In terms of integrating that technology. Why did we do that? We wanted to get more automation into the platform. So, customers have said, hey, look, I want these clusters to be more self-managing, self-healing. And so we've been really focused on saying how can we take those challenges the customers have, bring that directly into a platform so they're performing more and more like the expectations that they have in the public cloud, but in these diverse, introgenous, environments. >> That speaks to the operating model of cloud. You guys have a wholistic view because you're Red Hat. You got a lot of customers. You have the Dev House model, you got the Kubernetes container orchestration, micro-services. How does that all connect together for the customer? I mean, is it Turn Key and Open Shift? You guys had that nice bet with Core OS, pays big, huge dividends. What are some of those fruits in the operating model? So the customer has to think about the systems. It's a systems model, it's an operating system, so-to-speak. But they still got to develop and build apps. So you got to have a systems-wholistic view and be able to deliver the value. Where does it all connect? What's your explanation? >> So distributed systems are complex. And we're at the point where no individual can keep track of the hundreds, the thousands, the hundred-thousand containers that are running. So, the only way, then, to do it is to be able to say, how can the system be smart? So, at the Commons yesterday we had sort of a tongue-in-cheek slide that said, the factory of the future will only have two employees, a man and a dog. The man's there to feed the dog, and the dog's in place to ensure the man doesn't go off and actually touch the equipment. And the point really being, how can we bring technology that can bring that to bare. So, one example of that is actually through our Core OS acquisition. The Core OS team was working on a technology called, operators. Which is to say, how can we take the human knowledge that exists. To take complex software that's built by third parties and bring that natively into the platform and then have the platform go and manage them on behalf of the actual customer itself. Now we've got over 60 companies building operators. And we've, in fact, taken entire open-shift platforms, put operators to work. So it's completely automated and self-managed. >> The trend of hybrid is hot. You mentioned it's here to stay. We would argue that it's going to be a gateway to multi-cloud. And as you look at the stacks that are developing and the choices, the old concept of a stack-- and Chris was on earlier, the CTO of CNCF. And I kind of agree with him. The old notion of stack is changing because if you've got a horizontal, scale-able cloud framework, you got specialty with machine learning at the top, you got a whole new type of stack model. But, multi-cloud is what the customers want choice for. Red Hat's been around long enough to know what the multi-vendor word was years ago. Multi-vendor choice, multi-cloud choice. Similar paradigms happening now. Modern version of multi-vendor is multi-cloud. How do you guys see the multi-cloud evolution? >> So we keep investing and helping to make that a reality. So, last week, we made some announcements around Open Shift dedicators. Open Shift dedicators is the Open Shift manage service, or AWS. Open Shift is available in ways where it can be self-managed directly by customers in a variety of environments. Directly run around any public cloud or open stack, or what you'd like environment. We have third-party partners. For example, DXC D-systems providing managed versions of Open Shift. And then you can have Red Hat managed Open Shift for you. For example, on AWS, or coming next year, with Microsoft. Through our partnership for Open Shift on Azure. So you as a customer now have, I think, more choice than you ever had before. In terms of adopting Dev-Ops or dealings with micro-services. But then having flexibility with regard to taking advantage of tools, services, that are coming from, pretty much, every corner of IT industry. >> You guys have a huge install base. You've been servicing customers for many, many years, decades. Highest level support. Take us through what a customer, a traditional Red Hat customer that might not be fully embracing the cloud in the past, now is on-boarding to the cloud. What's the playbook? What do you guys offer them? How do you engage with them? What's the playbook? Is it, just buy Open Shift? Is there a series of-- how do you guys bring that Red Hat core Lenux customer that's been on Prim. Maybe a little bit out of shadow IT in the cloud, saying, hey, we're doing additional transformation. What's the playbook? >> So, great question, John. So, first fall into the transformation might be an over-hyped term. Might be a peak hype at this point in time. But I think that the bigger point from my perspective is how do you move more dollars, more euros, more spend towards innovation. That's what every company is sort of trying to do. So, our focus is, how can we build on the investments that they've made? At this point in time, (mumbles) Lenux probably has 50,000 customers. So, pretty much, every customer, any size, around the world, is some kind of Lenux user. How can we then say, how can we now provide you a platform to have greater agility and be able to develop these services quicker? But, at the same time, not forget the things that enterprises care about. So, last week we had our first big security issue released on Kubernetes. The privilege escalation flaw. And so, obviously, we participate in the community. We had a bunch of folks, along with others addressing that, and then we rolled our patches. Our patch roll-out went back all the way to version 3.2, 3.2 shipped in early 2016. Now, the one hand you say, hey, everyone has Dev-Ops, why do you need to have a patch for something that's from 2016? That's because customers still aren't moving as quickly as we'd like. So, I just want to temper, there's an enthusiasm with regard to, everyone's quick, everything's lightning fast. At the same time, we often find-- and so, going back to your question, we often find some enterprises will just take a little bit longer, in reality to kind of get-- (both speaking at once) >> Work loads, they're not going to be moving overnight. >> That's right. >> So there's some legacy from those workloads. >> Right, right. And so, what we want to do is ensure, for example, the platform. So we talked about the security and lifecycle. But, is supporting these Cloud Native, next generation, stateless applications, but also established legacy stateful applications all on the same platform. And so the work we're doing is ensure we don't-- you know, it's like, leave no application behind. So, either the work that we'll do, for example, with Red Hat Innovation Labs. We help sort of move that forward. Or with GSIs, global integrated, real integrators to bring those to bare. >> Ashesh, wonder if we could drill a little bit. There's a lot of re-training that needs to happen. I've been reading lots on there. It's not, oh, I bring in this new Cloud Native team that's just going to totally re-vamp it and take my old admins and fire them all. That's not the reality. There's not enough training people to do all of this wonderful stuff. We see how many people are at this show. Explain what Red Hat's doing. Some of the training maturation, education paths. >> So we do a lot of work on the just core training aspect, learning services, get folks up to speed. There's work that happens, for example, in CNCF. But we do the same thing around certifications, around administering the systems, developing applications, and so on. So that's one aspect that needs to be learned. But then there's another aspect with regard to how do we get the actual platform, itself, to be smart enough to do things, that in the past, individual people had to do? So, for example, if we were to sort of play out the operator vision fully and through execution. In the past, perhaps you needed several database admins. But, if you had operators built for databases, which, for example couch, base, and mongo, and others, have built out. You can now run those within the platform and then that goes and manages on behalf. Now you don't need as many database admins, you free those people up now to build actual business innovation value. So, I think what we're trying to do is increasingly think about how we sort of, if you will, move value up the stack to free up resources to kind of work on building the next generation of services. And I think that's our business transformation work. >> And I think, even though digital transformation is totally over-hyped, which I agree, it actually is really relevant. Because I think the cloud wave, right now, has been certainly validated. But what's recognized is that, people have to re-imagine how they do their infrastructure. And IT is programmable. You're seeing the network. The holy trinity of IT is storage, networking, and compute. So, when you start thinking about that in a way that's cloud-based, it's going to require them to, I don't want to say re-platform, but really move to an operating-environment that's different, that they used to have. And I think that is real. We're seeing evidence of that. With that in mind, what's next? What do you guys got on the horizon? What's the momentum here? What's the most important story that you guys are telling here at Red Hat? And what's around the corner? >> Yeah, so obviously, I talked about a few announcements that we made right around Open Shift Dedicated and the upgrades around that. And things like, for example, supporting bring-your-own-cloud. So, if you got your own Amazon security credentials, we help support that. And manage that on your behalf, as well. We've talked this week about our support native, trying to introduce more server-less technologies into Open Shift. We announced the contribution of SCD to the Cloud Native Computing Foundation. So, continuing re-affirming our commitment to the community I think looking ahead, going forward, our focus next year will be on Open Shift four, which will be the next release of the platform. And there, it's all about how do we give you a much better install than upgrade experience than you've had before? How do we give you these clusters that you can deploy in multiple different environments and manage that better for you? How do we introduce operators to bring more and more automation to the platform? So, for the next few months our focus is on creating greater automation in the platform and then enabling more and more services to be able to run on that. >> Pretty exciting for you guys riding the wave, the cloud wave. Pretty dynamic. A lot of action. You've guys have had great success, congratulations. >> Thank you very much. >> You're fun to watch. The Cube coverage here. We're in Seattle for KubeCon 2018 and Cloud Native Con. I'm John your host. Stay with us for more coverage of day one of three days of coverage after this short break. We'll be right back. (upbeat music)

>> Narrator: From Copenhagen, Denmark, it's theCUBE, covering KubeCon, and CloudNativeCon Europe 2018. Brought to you by the Cloud Native Computing Foundation, and its ecosystem partners. >> Okay, welcome back, everyone, live coverage here in theCUBE, in Europe, at Copenhagen, Denmark for KubeCon Europe 2018. This is theCUBE. We have the CNCF, at the Cloud Native Computing Foundation, part of the Linux Foundation. I'm John Furrier, co-host of theCUBE, with Lauren Cooney, the founder of SparkLabs, new venture around open source and innovation. Our analysts here, today with theCUBE, and our two guests are Michael Hausenblas, who's the direct developer advocate at Red Hat. Diane Meuller's the director of community development at Red Hat, talking about OpenShift, Red Hat, and just the rise and success of OpenShift. It's been really well-documented here on theCUBE, but certainly, in the industry, everyone's taking notice. Great to see you again, welcome to theCUBE, good to see you. >> Thank you. >> And wonderful to be here again. >> So, first of all, a lot of big news going on. CoreOS is now part of Red Hat, so that's exciting. I haven't had a chance to talk to you guys about that yet here on theCUBE, but great, great puzzle piece from the industry there for you guys, congratulations. >> Yeah, it's been a wonderful collaboration, having the CoreOS team as part of the Red Hat, and the OpenShift team, it's just a perfect fit. And the team from CoreOS, they've always been my favorite people. Alright, and Brandon Philips and the team over there are just awesome. And to have the expertise from Tectonics, the operator framework, which you'll hear more about here at KubeCon EU this week, to have Quay under the wings of Red Hat now, and Quay is a registry with OpenShift or with any other Kubernetes, you know, the stuff that they brought to the table, and the expertise, as well as the wonderful culture that they had, it was such a perfect fit with OpenShift. >> And you know, you guys bring a lot to the table, too. And I was, I mean, I've been kind of critical of CoreOS in the past, in a good way, 'cause I love those guys. I had good chats with them over the years, but they were so pure open-source guys, like Red Hat. >> Diane: Well, there's nothing wrong with being pure open-source. (laughing) >> No, no, I'm cool with that, but you guys have perfected the business more, you have great customers. So one of the things that they were always strong at was the open-source piece but when you start to monetize, and you start to get into the commercialization, it's hard for a start-up to be both, pure open-source and to monetize. You guys now have it together, >> Yeah. >> Great fit. >> So, it's a wonderful thing. We, on the OpenShift side, we have the OpenShift Commons, which is our open-source community, and we've sort of flipped the model of community development and that's at Red Hat. And one of the things is, they've been really strong, CoreOS, with their open-source projects, whether etcd, or you know, a whole myriad of other things. >> Well, let's double down on that. I want to get your thoughts. What is this OpenShift Commons? Take a minute to talk about what you guys had. You had an event Monday. It was the word on the streets, here in the hallways, is very positive. Take a minute to explain what happened, what's going on with that program? >> So OpenShift Commons is the open-source community around OpenShift Origin, but it also includes all the upstream projects that we collaborate with, with everybody from the Kubernetes world, from the Promytheus, all the CNCF project leads, all kinds of people from the upstream projects that are part of the OpenShift Ecosystem, as well as all the service providers and partners, who are doing wonderful things, and all the hosts, like Google, and you know, Microsoft Azure folks are in there. But, we've kind of flipped the model of community development on its head. In the past, if you were a community manager, which is what I started out as, you were trying to get people to contribute to your own code base. And here, because there's so much cross-community collaboration going on, we've got people working on Kubernetes. We got Kubernetes people making commits to Origin. We work on the OCI Foundation, trying to get the container stuff all figured out. >> So when you say you flipped the model, you mean there's now multiple-project contributions going on, or? >> Yeah, we've got our fingers in lots of pies now, and we have to, the collaboration has to be open, and there has to be a lot of communication. So the OpenShift Commons is really about creating those peer-to-peer networks. We do a lot of stuff virtual. I host my own OpenShift Commons briefings twice a week, and I could probably go to three or four days a week, and do it, because there's so much information. There's a fire hose of new stuff, new features, new releases, and stuff. Michael just did one on FAS. You did one before for the machine-learning Saigon OpenShift on Callum. >> Hold on, I want to just get your thoughts, Michael, on this, because what came up yesterday on theCUBE, was integration glue layers are really important. So I can see the connection here. Having this Commons model allows people to kind of cross-pollenate, one. Two, talk about integration, because we've got Promytheus, I might use KubeFlow. So there's new things happening. What does this mean for the integration piece? Good for it, or accelerating it? What's your thoughts? >> Right, right, right. So, I mainly work upstream which means when it is KubeFlow and other projects. And for me, these kind of areas where you can bring together both, the developers, and the end users, which is super important for us to get the feedback to see where we really are struggling. We hear a lot from those people that meet there, what their pinpoints are. And that is the best way to essentially shape the agenda, to say, well, maybe let's prioritize this over this other feature. And as you mention, integration being one big part, and Functions and Service being, could be considered as the visual basics of applications for Cloud Native Computing. It can act as this kind of glue between different things there. And I'm super excited about Commons. That's for me a great place to actually meet these people, and talk with them. >> So the Commons is almost a cross-pollination of folks that are actually using the code, building the code, and they see other projects that makes sense to contribute to, and so it's an alignment where you allow for that cross-pollination. >> It's a huge series of conversations, and one of the things that is really important to all of the projects is, as Michael said, is getting that feedback from production deployments. People who are working on stuff. So we have, I think we're at around 375 organizational members, so there's... >> John: What percentage of end-user organizations, do you think? >> It's probably about 50/50. You know, you can go to Commons.OpenShift.org, and look up the participants list. I'm behind a little bit in getting everybody in there, but-- >> John: So it's a good healthy dose of end-users? >> It's a good healthy dose of end-users. There's some special interest groups. Our special interest groups are more around used cases. So, we just hosted a machine-learning reception two nights ago, and we had about 200 people in the room. I'd say 50% of them were from the KubeFlow community, and the other 50% were users, or people who are building frameworks for our people to run on OpenShift. And so our goal, as always, is to make OpenShift the optimal, the best place to run your, in this case, machine-learning workloads, or-- >> And I think that's super critical, because one of the things that I've been following a little bit, and you know, I have your blog entry in front of me, is the operator framework, and really what you're trying to do with that framework, and how it's progressing, and where it's going, and really, if you can talk a little bit about what you're doing there, I think that would be great for our viewers. >> So what I'm going to do is I'm going to make sure you get Brandon Philips here, on your KubeFlow, sometime this week, 'cause I don't want to steal the thunder from his keynote tomorrow morning-- >> Lauren: Well, drop a couple hints. (laughs) >> John: Share a little bit, come on. >> So the operator stuff that CoreOS, and they brought it to the table, so it's really their baby. They had done a lot of work to make sure that they had first-class access to be able to inject things into Kubernetes itself, and make it run. And they're going to do a better technical talk on it than I am, and make things run. And so that what they've done is they've opened up and created an STK for operators, so other people can build more. And we think, this is a tipping point for Kubernetes, and I really don't want to steal any thunder here, or get in over my head, is the other part of it, too. >> I think Brandon is the right person to talk about that. >> Brandon, we'll drag Brandon over here. >> I'm super excited about it, but let's-- >> Yeah, let's talk about why you're super excited about it. Is there anything you can kind of tell us in terms of what? >> Enables people to run any kind of workload in communities, in a reliable automated fashion. So you bring the experience that human operators have into software. So you automate that application, which makes it even more suitable to run your enterprise application that so far might have not been the best place to run. >> Lauren: That's great, yeah. >> And yeah, I'm also looking forward to Brandon explaining the details there. >> So I think it's great hearing about that, and we talk a lot about how it's great for users. It's great, you know, operators, developers, how they're building things out, and things along those lines. But one of the things that we are not hearing a ton about here, and we want to hear more about, is security. Security is increasingly important. You know, we're hearing bits and pieces but nothing's really kind of coming together here and what're your thoughts on that? >> Security, I was recently, when I blogged about it, and people on Twitter said, well, is that really true that, you know, couldn't this secure body fall? It's like, well, all the pieces are there. You need to be aware of it. You need to know what you're doing. But it is there, right? All the defaults might not be as you would expect it, but you can enable it. And I think we did a lot of innovations there, as well. With our back, and security context, and so on. And, actually, Liz Rice and myself are working on putting the security cookbook, and for a variety that will come out later this year. We're trying to document the best practice, because it is early days, and it's quite a range of things. From building container images in a secure way, to excess control, and so on, so there's a lot of stuff (mumbles). >> What're some of the end-user feedback sessions, or feedback data that you're getting from these sessions? What is some of the things you guys are hearing? What's the patterns? What's the things that are boiling up to the top? >> Well, there's so many. I mean, this conference is one of those ones where it's a cornucopia of talks, and trying to, I just wrote a little blog post called, The Hitchhiker's Guide to KubeCon. It's on blog.openshift.com. And because, you could spend all of your time here in a different track, and never leave it, like Security 1, or in Operations 1, or-- >> John: There's a lot of great content. >> I think the Istio stuff is probably the hottest thing I'm hearing people going to. There was a great deep-dive training session, hands-on on Monday, here, that got incredible feedback. IBM and Google did that one. We had a lot of customer talks and hands-on training sessions on Monday. Here, there are pretty much, there's a great talk coming up this afternoon, on Kube Controllers that Magic... I think that's at 11:45-ish. There are a lot of the stuff around Service Fish, and service brokers, is really kind of the hot thing that people are looking for to get implemented. And we've got a lot of people from Red Hat working on that. There's, oh man, there's etcd updtes, there's a bazillion things going-- >> John: It's exploding big time here. >> Yeah. >> No doubt about it. >> The number one thing that I'm seeing last couple of months, being onsite with customers, and also here, is that given that Kubernetes is now the defective standard of container authorization, people are much more willing to go all-in, you know? >> Yeah. >> A lot of folks were on the fence, for a couple of years, going like, which one's going to make it? Now, it's kind of like, this is a given. You couldn't, you know, just as Linux is everywhere on the servers, that's the same with Kubernetes, and people are now happy to really invest, to like, okay, let's do it now, let's go all in. >> Yeah, and, what we're hearing, too, just stepping back and looking at the big picture is we see the trend, kind of hearing and connecting the dots, as the number of nodes is going to expand significantly. I mean, Sterring was on stage yesterday, and we heard their, and still small, not a lot of huge, not a lot on a large scale. So, we think that the scale question is coming quickly. >> Well, I think it already came, alright? In the machine-learning reception that we had at night, one of the gentleman, Willem Bookwalter, from Microsoft, and Diane Feddema, from Red Hat, and a whole lot of people are talking about how do we get, because machine-learning workloads, have such huge work, you know, GPU, and Google has their TPU requirements to get to scale, to run these things, that people are already pushing the envelope on Kubernetes. Jeremy Eater from Red Hat has done some incredible performance management work. And on the CNCF blog, they've posted all of that. To get the optimal performance, and to get the scale, is now, I think, one of the next big things, and there's a lot of talks that are on that. >> Yeah, and that's Istio's kind of big service mesh opportunity there, is to bring that to the next level. >> To the next level, you know, there's going to be a lot of things that people are going to experience trying to get the most out of their clusters, but also, I think we're still at the edge of that. I mean, someone said something about getting to 2,500 nodes. And I'm like, thinking, that's just the beginning, baby. >> Yeah, it's going to be more, add a couple zeroes. I got to ask you guys, I got to put you both on the spot here, because it's what we do on theCUBE. You guys are great supporters of theCUBE. We appreciate that, but we've had many conversations over the years with OpenShift, going back to OpenStacks, I don't know what year it was, maybe 2012, or I don't know. I forget what year it was. Now, the success of OpenShift was really interesting. You guys took this to a whole 'nother level. What's the reaction? Are you, as you look back now on where you were with OpenShift and where you are today, do you pinch yourself and say, damn? Or what's your view? >> Red Hat made a big bet on Kubernetes three years ago, three and a half years ago, when people thought we were crazy. You know, they hadn't seen it. They didn't understand what Google was trying to open-source, and some of the engineers inside of Red Hat, Clayton Coleman, Matt Hicks, a lot of great people, saw what was coming, reached out, worked with Google. And the rest of us were like, well, what about Ruby and Rails, and Mongo DB, and you know, doing all this stuff? And like, we invested so much in gears and cartridges. And then, once they explained it, and once Google really open-sourced the whole thing, making that bet as a company, and pivoting on that dime, and making version 3.0 of OpenShift and OpenShift Origin, as a Kubernetes-based platform, as a service, and then, switching over to being a container platform, that was a huge thing. And if you had talked to me back then, three years ago, it was kind of like, is this the right way to go? But, then, you know, okay. >> Well, it's important to history to document that point, because I remember we talked about it. And one of the things, you guys made a good bet, and people were scratching their head, at that time. >> Oh yeah. >> Big time. But also, you've got to give credit to the community, because the leaders in the community recognized the importance of Kubernetes early on. We've been in those conversations, and said, hey, you know, we can't screw this up, because it was an opportunity. People saw the vision, and saw it as a great opportunity. >> I think, as much as I like the technical bits, as an engineer, the API being written and go, and so on, I really think the community, that is what really makes the difference. >> Yeah, absolutely does. >> If you compare it with others, they're also successful. But here with CNCF, all the projects, all the people coming together, and I love the community, I really-- >> It's a case study of how to execute, in my opinion. You guys did a great job in your role, and the people didn't get in the way and try to mess it up. Great smart people understood it, shepherded it through, let it grow. >> And it really is kudos to the Kubernetes community, and the CNCF, for incubating all of this wonderful cross-community collaboration. They do a great job with their ambassadors program. The Kubernetes community does amazing stuff around their SIGs, and making sure that projects get correctly incubated. You know, they're not afraid to rejig the processes. They've just done a wonderful thing, changing the way that new projects come into the Kubernetes, and I think that willingness to learn, learn from mistakes, to evolve, is something that's really kind of unique to the whole new way of thinking about open-source now, and that's the change that we've seen. >> And open-source, open movements, always have a defining moment. You know, the OSI model, remember? That stack never got fully standardized but it stopped at a really important point. PCPIP, IP became really important. The crazy improbability world, CISCO, as we know, and others. This is that kind of moment where there's going to be a massive wealth creation, value creation opportunity because you have people getting behind something, as a de facto standard. And then, there's a lot of edge work around it that can be innovated on. I think, to me, this is going to be one of those moments we look back on. >> Yeah, and I think it's that willingness to adjust the processes, to work with the community, and you know, that Kubernetes, the ethos that's around this project, we've learned from a lot of other foundations' mistakes. You know, not that they're better or worse, but we've learned that you could see the way we're bringing in new projects, and adding them on. We took a step back as a community, and said okay, this is, we're getting too many, too soon, too fast. And maybe, this is not quite the right way to go. And rather than doing the big tent umbrella approach, we've actually starting doing some really re-thinking of our processes, and the governing board and the TOC of the CNCF, have done an awesome job getting that done. >> When you got lightning in a bottle, you stop and you package it up, and you run with it, so congratulations. Red Hat Summit next week, we'll be there, theCUBE. >> Oh yeah. >> Looking forward to going deep on this. >> Well, the OpenShift Commons Gathering is the day before Red Hat Summit. We've completely sold out, so sorry, there's a waitlist. We've gone from being, our first one, I think we had 150 people come. There's over 700 people now coming to the Gathering one, and 25 customers with production deployments speaking. This is the day before Red Hat Summit. And I lost count of how many OpenShift stories are being told at Red Hat Summit. It's going to be a crazy, jetlag-y week, next week, so-- >> Congratulations, you guys got a spring in your step, well done. OpenShift going to the next level, certainly the industry and Kubernetes, a service mesh as Istio. Lot of great coverage here in theCUBE, here in Europe for KubeCon 2018 in Copenhagen, Denmark. I'm John Furrier, and Lauren Cooney, the founder of SparkLabs. I'm with theCUBE, we'll be back with more live coverage. Stay with us! Day Two, here at KubeCon, we'll be right back. (upbeat techno music)

>> Narrator: Live from Austin, Texas, it's The Cube covering KubeCon and CloudNativeCon 2017. Brought to you by Red Hat, the Linux Foundation, and The Cube's ecosystem partners. >> Welcome back, everyone. Live here, The Cube's exclusive coverage in Austin, Texas. This is CloudNativeCon and KubeCon for Kubernetes Conference. I'm John Furrier, Stu Miniman. My next two guests from Red Hat, Joe Brockmeier, senior evangelist, Linux Containers, Red Hat and Kimberly Craven, Director of Portfolio Marketing at Red Hat. Welcome to The Cube, good to see you guys. >> Thank you, good to see you, too. So I was saying at re:Invent last week that Red Hat's stamp of approval has always been in the enterprise. You guys are, you know, winning the enterprise, been there for years. But now, at Cloud Native, kind of things are coming together. You've got a lot of customers that have been, I won't say quietly going with Red Hat with OpenShift, and now with Kubernetes. Huge bet a few years ago. >> Mmhmm. >> Yep. >> Only two years ago. Kind of changed the game. >> Yeah, fortunately we made a strategic decision to replatform our own platform on Kubernetes and it was the right decision to make. So we've been lucky in that we've been able to, I'd say we've been able to invest in the right open source projects. So Joe, would you agree that over the years, I mean, starting with Linux. >> Yep. >> But in other technologies as well? >> Yeah, historically, I think we, not every, not 100% of the time, but a large enough percentage of the time, picked the right horse community wise. Open Stack, now Kubernetes, Linux-Colonel, obviously. I used to work for a company called LinuxMall and we sponsored these Linux pavilions. And I remember NetBSD guys telling me how Linux was doomed because it wasn't as elegant. >> Doomed, it sure didn't turn out that way. But certainly, the community model has changed. You're starting to see, you know, Dan Cohen, in his opening slide, actually kind of laid out the circle of innovation, project, products and profit. >> Joe: Yeah. >> And so now, it's okay to have profitability objectives as an outcome of great products. And so still bringing in the culture of innovation because the business market for this is pretty large. I see the number of people coming on board. The demand is pretty strong. >> Not just innovation, but I think, one of the important things about Kubernetes is that is has been a community project where it's a community of equals contributing to the project. And it's about each company bringing the right thing for the project, not the right thing necessarily just for that company, but the right thing for the overall project, which is really important. >> Timing's everything, right? I mean, as they say in life, but remember, all that FUD about past layers and infrastructures as a service, and again, the DevOps community was still growing. No one really talks about that anymore because people just want working software. >> Joe: Right. >> Right? So it's fun not to have those kind of conversations. Instead, the conversation's about how to orchestrate great workloads, how to onboard and accelerate more application developers. This is the narrative that we wanted a couple years ago. Now it's here. What are you guys doing at Red Hat to take that to the next level? >> Kimberly: So I'm going to defer to Joe for that one. >> Joe: Okay. To take that to the next level. First, before people can get to the next level, one thing I want to point out is that while everybody here is hip deep in Kubernetes and they're ready, there are a lot of companies out there that are still digesting virtualization and still digesting cloud. >> Kimberly: Right. >> Private or public, and so one of our key roles is actually to help them consume open-source software and get from Point A to Point B. So the role that we're really playing right now is about taking customers with their workloads today that are running on bare metal, that are running on virtualization, that are pet workloads, right? And getting those into the cloud and getting in those into Kubernetes and that sort of thing. So the next level for a lot of folks is actually getting up to speed to the things that were announced today. >> Right. >> Well the question I want to ask, that I want to get this on the record, 'cause it's important to get the definition, what does Kubernetes mean to the enterprise? For us in Cloud Native, we understand what it is, we get it, but to the enterprise customer, what does Kubernetes mean to them? So I would say, based on the customer conversations that we've had, it's all about getting your workloads to the cloud and being more cloud native much more quickly. So that's the end goal for adopting containers and adopting Kubernetes. It's all about getting to be in a position where you can migrate your workloads to the cloud but also develop new on the cloud much more quickly than you could before. So it's about automating, it's about all of the processes behind that, if you will. >> Joe, comment? >> I agree with everything Kimberly said. I would also just add I think it's really about kind of an almost an end-stage of software packaging, which is something that Red Hat has been doing for 20+ years, is figuring out how do we take goodness of software, open-source software, and get it into a consumable format? First it was RPM, then it was YUM, now it's containers, now it's orchestrated containers that are, you know, able to be worked on with service mesh and all these other wonderful things, cloud native storage. It's basically about taking that software and making it scale. >> Yeah, I mean, yours is a service mesh. So let's take it to the next level of customer conversation. I love this stuff, I'm going to the cloud as soon as possible. I got some stuff in the public stuff now, I got a lot of on-premise stuff activity, I love hybrid cloud. So I got a lot of different use cases. I got some bare metal, I got some hybrid cloud and I got some public cloud. Is this where the OpenShift fits in? I mean, in that environment of a customer conversation, what's the current state of the art for Red Hat to engage that customer? >> So organizations, they're taking inventory of everything that they have today. So they're looking at what do they have on bare metal today, what do they have in virtualization, what different workloads do they have and where does it make sense to deploy them both financially and from an advancement perspective? Because some workloads don't have to be, they don't have to be advanced as quickly. You don't have to make additional updates. But there are other workloads that are moving much more quickly. And one of the things that Red Hat does and where we help our customers, especially with OpenShift, is we allow them to deploy those workloads across, whether they're going to on-premises with a bare metal if you say, or as well as virtualization, private cloud, potentially a mixture of multicloud environment where they have some workloads going to Google, some workloads going to AWS, and some going to Azure. It's being able to do that consistently, that OpenShift for guidance. >> Is that a common use case right now? Is that the number one use case, this hybrid? >> So when you say that, the hybrid cloud, it's not, it's a combination of multiple use cases. People aren't necessarily looking just yet to take the same workload and move it such that it's spanning multiple clouds, but they want to have that flexibility so that if they choose to go to a certain public cloud, and it becomes it's not cost-effective for them to do so anymore, they want to be able to take that workload and move it. And that's what we're working towards. >> Joe, I got to ask about OpenShift because, you know, we've been following you guys since the Open Stack days and now with the formation of this, seeing nice lines of sight of value proposition. What's going on with OpenShift? We're hearing a lot of good customer wins, a lot of people are using it. I heard a comment in the hallway saying that OpenShift has more customers than most of these vendors here combined. I'm not sure I believe that, that might have been just kind of chatter, but is that true or can you share the success? Because it's been on a tear. What are some of the OpenShift success points? >> Kimberly: Well-- >> So is it true there are more customers than all everyone else combined? >> I'd like to say so, I mean-- >> John: Pretty close or-- >> You were at Red Hat Summit this past year back in the May timeframe and we had many OpenShift customers that were on stage. I mean, it was-- >> John: You got lots. >> Yeah, we had to turn sessions away from customers because we didn't have enough room for them. >> So one of the things we actually haven't gotten to highlight yet at this event, Red Hat does, at a lot of these shows, ahead of the show, it's called OpenShift Commons, maybe you can give our audience a little bit of what goes into that. 'Cause all the container shows, the Cloud Native shows, you know, OpenShift has been there. >> Yeah, with OpenShift Commons, it's a great way for the community to collaborate around OpenShift specifically. It's, whether it be with our ISVs, working with our ISVs on different plugins to extend OpenShift as well as our customers to be able to provide us with feedback in terms of what they're looking for. And then we take that to the community. For example, Clayton was a top contributor. That was announced yesterday. >> Yes, Clayton got an award offered for that on stage, yeah. >> Yeah, and in essence, our customers are providing feedback to us directly in OpenShift Commons and in other forums. And that allows us to steer the community more effectively to meet their needs. >> I just want to add it's not a two-way conversation with Commons. It's also, you know, I was also there on Tuesday when we did Commons and we had Tellus, for example, telling their story to the other customers in the room. And so they're not just telling us, like, hey, this works for us, this doesn't work. They're telling each other and they're sharing successes, which is part of the wonder of open sourcing community. It's not just about, you know, you can have, I don't want to use an example, you can have a two-way conversation with any vendor that's taking your money. How many vendors are bringing you together to talk to your other customers? You have to have a lot of confidence, I think, in people being happy with your solution to build something out like that. >> Yeah, and experience, too. You guys had the experience. >> Yeah, you mentioned, we were right about that time, we'd been there a number of years. I feel the open source community is a little bit better at allowing those customers to kind of come forward. Because not only are they using it, they're usually contributing to some of these technologies. Some traditional shows, you know, getting a customer to get up on stage is pretty challenging. Any comments on that? >> Well it's funny because I think it's getting much easier, moving forward, for customers to participate in the communities, as you'll see with Netflix, for example. They were up on stage earlier and talking about the contributions that they're also making to the community. I think that it's much easier than it was even, I'd say, 5-10 years ago. With that said, there are a lot of customers that want help in terms of creating additional functionality in the community where they might have something that's, perhaps, not quite ready, not quite good enough, that we help to shepherd. >> Is there a profile of customer that's adopting Kubernetes? I mean, I've seen a lot of media coverage, obviously Netflix is on AWS. ACHB on stage today. Is it coincidental that there'd be two large big media online kind of companies, or-- >> Well, it's funny you should ask that because we're conducting a research project and we recently got some data back where we, in essence, sent out a survey to customers and non-customers to see where their adoption was. What we're finding is financial services, the media, communications organization, government, and even healthcare, to some extent, are taking a look at and adopting. I'd say that, based on the adoption curve, what's funny to note is, with government, government started looking, on average, at containers three years ago, whereas with financial services, they started to get more heavily invested, now this is in general, if you're looking at the median, two years ago. With that said, I think that financial services is actually adopting containers more quickly than government is. >> I'd love to see the data on that survey because we're always doing kind of probing, anecdotal kind of stirrup holes, friends and guests of The Cube. And it's the trend, from our standpoint, is that it seems that anywhere that there's been this transformation opportunity. >> Kimberly: Mmhmm. >> I mean, look at government. Who would've though public sector could be so fast and change? So public sector, media and entertainment, people with their modernizing seems to be where the action is. But financial services is always going to be on the IT dollar spend. But like, I mean, I'm really surprised at how fast public sector is evolving. >> And what's interesting about it, too, is also the industries that are predominantly concerned with security. Security and performance are very important to financial services and to government and to communications. And it's interesting how quickly this technology is being adopted with those considerations. >> Joe, one of the things coming into the show, I listened to some previews and they're saying, you know, we're not even going to talk about containers of the show. Of course, there's containers kind of underneath. Maybe speak a little bit about that dynamic. Red Hat, you know, so heavily involved. You know, of course Linux containers, you know, underneath there. Compare and contrast to kind of what we're kind of doing here in the Kubernetes and Cloud Native space. >> Yeah, so it really isn't about the individual container anymore than five years ago it was about the individual RPM. The container runtime and the ability to spin up a container is table stakes. And so that is no longer really where the value is. Same as like, hypervisors in cloud. Like, the real value is not in the hypervisor. It's around that, it's the ecosystem around it and the ability to do it. So yeah, I mean, we're still talking about, it's funny, when I have conversations, not here, but in other places, the parlance is still to say containers when they really mean, you know, like Kubernetes and orchestration, the whole schmear. But yeah, it's not where the value and the action is these days. >> Where's the Red Hat situation with the people now? Because we've seen, we've noticed, that you guys have really kind of continued to evolve as a company. Obviously, I mean, or in the early days of Red Hat, open source wasn't tier one. You guys made it tier one as a culture, that's well-documented. But then there's a whole new Red Hat mojo going on now. OpenShift, seeing you bringing that same principles. Talk about what's going on in the company now. We've seen a lot of smart people continuing to do the Red Hat thing. What is Red Hat now in the marketplace? The same old Red Hat? What's different, what's the same? 'Cause you guys are doing really well. >> Kimberly: Mmhmm. >> What's it like there? >> I think, I've been at Red Hat for about six years and I would say that the culture has continued to evolve since I joined. One of the things that first attracted me about it was that there are a lot of smart people that work at Red Hat and it's a very collaborative culture. It's a culture that's based on meritocracy and the best ideas truly win. So very similar to the way that OpenSource projects are run or should be run, for the good OpenSource projects, it's very much about getting people together, hearing what everyone has to say, and making sure that the right ideas are the ones that move forward. >> John: Surely they attract great people, too. >> Yeah. >> To build on that, in this industry there's so much kind of hype, boom and bust. On the outside, you look at it, I mean, from a financial standpoint, Red Hat's one of the most consistent performers out there. You know, quarter after quarter, Kim talks about the growth. So you know, I'm not asking you to talk about the financials but, you know, worth a show. Nobody here can keep up with all the changes. So you know, just, when you talk about all these projects and everything, Red Hat, can you keep up with the changes? Or is it just that you've got so many people and contribute so many places? >> We're working on it and I think, I mean, the nice thing about it is that everybody's very passionate about all of those changes that are happening. And we like change, oddly enough, we embrace it. It's interesting, but that's one of the parts of being at Red Hat. And I'd say, I mean, I would think that that's something that's inherent to us. >> Well, I mean, our corporate mission, part of our corporate mission is to be the catalyst for change and communities. And we, you know, I've worked at a couple of larger companies and this is the only one where I feel like if I don't agree with something I can send an email directly to Jim and say, "I don't agree with this and I think we should do something different." >> And he'll respond within four hours. >> And Jim will respond unless he's on a plane. >> Yeah, he'll respond and you know, even if they don't agree, which is impossible, everybody always agrees with me. (group laughs) But even if they don't agree, you know, they engage honestly and respectfully, and that's super important in this kind of industry. If you can't do that, you can't run with open source. >> Joe, Kimberly, thanks for coming on The Cube, and continued success and thanks for all the Red Hat contribution. You guys are doing a great job in the community. Continue to appreciate it. >> Thank you. >> Red Hat, here on The Cube, continuing to do the Red Hat thing. Red Hat, stamp of approval from the enterprise. Certainly well-respected and the leader inside The Cube here at the CloudNativeCon and KubeCon for KubernetesCon, not Cube. I'm John Furrier, Stu Miniman. We'll be back with more after this short break. (upbeat music)

>> Man: Live, from Boston, Massachusetts, it's The Cube, covering Red Hat Summit 2017, brought to you by Red Hat. >> Welcome back to The Cube's coverage of the Red Hat Summit, here in Boston, Massachusetts. I'm you're host Rebecca Knight along with my co-host Stu Miniman. We're joined by Ashesh Badani. He is the Vice President and General Manager of OpenShift here at Red Hat. Thanks so much, Ashesh. >> Thanks for having me on yet again. >> Yes, you are a Cube veteran, so welcome back. We're always happy to talk to you. You're also an OpenShift veteran. You've been there five years, and before the cameras are rolling you were talking about how we really are at a tipping point here with OpenShift, and we're seeing a widespread adoption and embrace of containers. Can you share the context with us. >> Sure, so I think we've spent a fair amount of time in this market talking about how important containers are, the value of containers, DevOps, microservices. I think at this Red Hat Summit, we've spent a fair amount of time trying to ensure that people understand one containers are real, in terms of, you know, adoption level that we're seeing. They're being run in production and at scale. And across a variety of industries, right. So, just at this summit we've had over 30 customers from across the world, across industries like financial services, government, transportation, tech, telco, a variety of different industries talking about how they've been deploying and using containers. At our keynotes we had Macquarie Bank from Australia, Barclay's Bank from the U.K. We had United Health slash OPTUM. All talking about, you know, mission critical applications, how their developers running applications, both new applications, right, microservice-style applications, but also existing legacy applications on the OpenShift platform. >> Ashesh, I've been watching this for a few years, we've talked to you many times, we talked about containers. Maybe I'm oversimplifying it but let me know. It feels like OpenShift is your delivery mechanism to take some things that might be hard if I tried to do them myself and made it a lot simpler. Kind of give like Red Hat did for Linux, I have containers, I have Kubernetes, I have OpenStack, and all three of those I didn't hear a ton at the show, I heard a lot about OpenShift and the OpenShift family because underneath OpenShift are those pieces. Am I gettin' it right, or there's more nuance you need-- >> Great observation, great observation, yeah, and we're seeing that from our customers, too. So, when they're making strategic choice, they're talking about, you know, how can I find the container platform to run at scale. When they make their choice, all they're thinking about well what's the existing, you know, development tools I've got. Can it integrate with the ones that I have in place. What's the underlying infrastructure they can run on. OpenStack of course is a great one, right. We have many customers, Santander, BBVA Bank are just two examples of those, but then also, can I run the OpenShift structure in a hybrid cloud, or I guess what we're calling a multi-cloud world now. Amazon, Google, Asher, and so on. But actually interestingly enough we made some announcements with Amazon as well at the show with regard to making sure some AWS service are able to be integrated into the OpenShare platform. So, we find customers today finding a lot of value in the flexibility of the deployment platforms they have in place, integration with various developer tools. I think my colleague Harry Mower was on earlier talking about OpenShift.io, again, you know, super interesting, super exciting now it's been from our perspective with regard to giving developers more choice. And in addition to that, you know, the other parts of the portfolio, right, going to your point, earlier. We're trying to attach that increasingly as options for customers around OpenShift. Storage is a great example. So we announced some work we've doing with regard to container storage with our classified system for OpenShift. >> So you're talking about simplification and that does seem to be a real theme here. Once you've solved that problem, what's next, what are some of the other customer issues that you need to resolve and help them overcome and make their lives easier? >> Yeah, so, the rate of change in technology, as you well know, you've been following this now for a while is just dramatic, right. I think it's probably faster than we've ever seen in a long, long time. I was having a conversation with a large franchise customer with regard to, you know, just as we feel like, you know, we're getting people to adopt Hadoop, everyone seems to have moved on to Spark. And now we're on Spark and people are talking about, oh, maybe Flink is next. Now that we get to Flink, now they're saying AI and ML is next. It's just like, well, where does this stop, right. So I don't think it stops. The question is, you know, at what point of time do you sort of jump in. Embrace the change, right, that's sort of what Devops all about right, continuous change, you know, embrace it, be able to evolve with it, fail fast, pick yourself up, and then have the organization be in this sort of continuous learning, this kaizen environment. >> Yeah, Ashesh, from day one of the keynote talked about the platforms and you know Red Hat Enterprise Linux was kind of the first big platform that can live a lot of environments. Seems OpenShift is a second platform, and the scope of it seems to be growing. We talked to Harry about the OpenShift.io. He alluded to the fact that we might see expansion into the family there. What is, you said that innovation, and you know change keeps growing. What's the boundaries of what OpenShift's going to cover. Where do you see it today and where's the vision go moving forward? >> Yeah, so (laughs) great question, a double-edged sword right. Because on the one hand of course we want to make sure OpenShift is a foundation for doing a lot of stuff. But then there's also the Linux philosophy. Do one thing, do it well, right. And so there's always this temptation with regard to keeping on wanting to take new things on, right, I mean for a long time people have said, hey, why aren't we in the database business? You know, why aren't you doing more? Well the question is, you know, how many things can we do well? Because anything we commit to, as you well know, Red Hat will invest significant amount of engineering effort upstream in the community to help drive it forward, right. We've done that on Linux container front. We're doing that in Kubernetes. Obviously we do that with RHEL, we've done that Jboss technologies. So, we're very, very cognizant of making sure that we provide an environment and basically an ecosystem around us that can grow and be able to attach the momentum we have in place. As a result of that we announced the container health index at this conference, right. Mostly because, you know, there's just no way for one company to provide all the services that are possible, right. So to be able to grade applications that come in, be able to sort of give customers confidence that, you know, these can be certified and work in our environment, and then be able to kind of expand out that ecosystem is going to be really important going forward. >> Yeah, Ashesh that's an interesting one, the container health index. I'm going to play with the term there. What's the health of the container industry there. We at The Cube at DockerCon a couple weeks ago had a couple of Red Hatters on the program. There was kind of a reshuffling, you know. The Moby project, open source, we've got Docker CE, Docker EE, Docker actually referenced, you know, Fedora and CentOS and RHEL as you know, something that they did similar to but, what's your take on the announcements there? >> Sure, sure, I'll probably butcher this quote tremendously, but it was Mark Twain or someone said, "The rumors of my whatever are greatly exaggerated," so. You know, there's always, you know, some amount of change that sort of happens, especially with new technology, and you've got so many players sort of jumping in, right. I mean of course there's Docker Inc. There's Red Hat but there's, you know, Google and IBM and Microsoft and Amazon, and there's a lot of companies, right, that all look at this as a way of advancing the number of workloads that come onto their platforms. You know, we've seen some of the challenges, if you will, that Docker Inc. has been facing as well as the great work it's been doing to help drive the community forward, right. Those are both interesting things. And they've got a business to run. We've announced, we've seen the changes announced with regard to some of the renaming and Moby, and I think there's still a lot more detail that need to be fleshed out. And so I, we're going to wait for the dust to settle. I think we want to make sure our customers are confident. We've had this conversation with many customers that whatever direction that, you know, we go in, we will continue supporting that technology. We will stand behind it. We will make sure we're putting upstream engineers to help drive the community that will provide the greatest value for customers. >> Ashesh, you're one of the judges for the Innovation Awards here. Can you tell us a little bit more about the secret sauce that you're looking for. First of all, how you choose these winners, and what it is you're looking for. >> Yeah, so I'm really proud of the work I do to help support the judging of the Innovation Awards. You know, I think it's a fantastic thing we do to recognize, I was telling Stu earlier, you know we could probably have done a dozen more awards, right, the entries that are coming in are just fantastic. We try to change up the categories a little bit every year to kind of match with the changes in industry, like for example, you know, DevOps, Macquarie Bank was a great example of enterprise transformation. You know, they had this great line in their keynote right, where their ambition I think really impressed a lot of the judges with regard to, hey our competition is not necessarily the other financial service companies, it's the last app you opened. That's a remarkable thing, right. Especially for an existing traditional financial services company, you see. So, I think what we look for is scope, ambition, and vision, but also how you're executing against it, and what demonstrable results do you have for that. And so, you probably saw that, as, you know, we talked about all the various innovation awards we gave, right, whether it's Macquarie Bank or, you know, British Columbia Empower Individuals, right, so the whole notion of celebrating the impact of individual, and create an exchange for them to engage with the wider civic body. That's really important for us. >> Ashesh, one of the innovation award-winners OPTUM we talked to, they're an OpenShift customer. They're really excited with the AWS announcement. We've been chewing on it, talking to a lot of people. We think it's the most significant news coming out of the show. As you said, there's certain details that need to bake out when we look at some of these things. By the time we get to AWS Reinvent we'll probably understand a little bit some of the pricing and, you know, some of the other pieces, and it'll be there, but, you know, bring us from your viewpoint, from an OpenShift standpoint what this means to kind of an extension of the product line and your customers. >> Yeah, so, we've got, at least at this show you had over 30 customers presenting about their use of OpenShift. And we typically find them deploying OpenShift in a variety of different environments including AWS. So for example Swiss Rail, right, obviously out of Switzerland, is taking advantage of, you know, running it in their own data center, taking advantage of AWS as well. When they're doing that they want to make sure that they can consume services from Amazon. Just as if they were running it on Amazon, right. They like the container platform that OpenShift provides, and they like the abstraction level that it puts in place. Of course they have different choices, right. They can choose to run it on OpenStack, they can choose to run OpenShift in some other public cloud provider, yet there are many services that Amazon's releasing that are extremely interesting and value that they provide to their customers. By being able to have relationship with Amazon, and have an almost native experience of those services with regard to OpenShift, regardless of the underlying infrastructure OpenShift runs, it is a very powerful value proposition, definitely for our customers. It's a great one for Amazon because it allows for their services to be used across a multitude of environments. And we feel good about that because we're creating value for our customers, and of course not precluding them from using other services as well. >> I'm wondering if you could shed a little light on the financials, and how you think about things. I mean, you made this great point about the banks saying our competition is the last app you opened. How do you think, with OpenShift, which is free, how do you view your competition, and how do you think about it in terms of the way companies are making their decisions about where they're putting their money in IT investments. >> Right, so OpenShift isn't free, so I'll just make sure-- (all laugh) >> OpenShift.io >> OpenShift.io, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, yes. >> So, consider OpenShift.io as a great gateway into the OpenShift experience, right. It's a cloud-based web environment allows you to develop in browsers, allows you some collaboration with other developers. There's actually a really cool part of the tech, I don't know if Harry talked about right, which is, we almost have, almost machine-learning aspect part of it, you know, that's in play with regard to, you know, if this is the code you're using, here are what other users are doing with it, making recommendations, and so on, so it's a really modern integrated, you know, development environment that we're sort of introducing. That of course doesn't mean that customers can't use existing ones that they have in place. So this is just giving customers more choice. By doing that, we're basically expanding the span of options the customers have. We introduced something called OpenShift Application Runtimes also at this conference, which is supporting existing Java languages or tools or frameworks, right, whether it's Jboss, EAP, Vortex, WildFly, Spring Boot, but also newer ones like No-JavaScript, right, so again, in the spirit of, let's give you choices, let's have you sort of use what you most want to use, and then from our perspective, right, you know, we will create value when it's been deployed at scale. >> Ashesh, before the event at the beginning of it you guys run something called OpenShift Commons. There's some deep education and a lot of it very interactive. I'm curious if there's anything that's kind of surprised you or interesting nuggets that you got from the users. Either stuff that they were further ahead or further behind, or just something that's grabbin' their attention that you could share with our users. >> Well, what I've been really happy to see with the OpenShift Commons is, well, this is a couple things, right. One is we try our best to make it literally a community event, right, so we call it OpenShift Commons but it is a community event. So in the past and even now, we have providers of technologies, even though they might compete with Red Hat and OpenShift available to talk to. Customers, users of our technology, right, so we want it to be an open, welcoming environment for various providers. Second, we're seeing more and more customers wanting to come out and share their experiences, right. So at this OpenShift Commons, I think we had maybe over 10 customers present on, you know, how they were using OpenShift, and sharing with other customers. Number three, this really attracts other customers. I just had a large financial services institution come and say, you know, we attended OpenShift Commons for the first time. This is a fantastic community. How can we become a part of this? You know, get us involved. There's no cost to join, right, it's free and open, and now our numbers are pretty significant. And then when that's in place, right, the ecosystem forms around it. Now, so we have several different ISVs, global system integrators who are all sort of, you know, coalescing, to provide additional services. >> Ashesh, thanks so much for your time, we appreciate it. It's always a pleasure to have you on the program. >> Ashesh: Thanks again, see you all next time. >> I'm Rebecca Knight for Stu Miniman. There'll be more from the Red Hat Summit after this. (relaxed digital beats)