>>Hello, brilliant humans and welcome back to Las Vegas, Nevada, where we are live from the AWS Reinvent Show floor here with the cube. My name is Savannah Peterson, joined with Dave Valante, and we have a very exciting conversation with you. Two, two companies you may have heard of. We've got AWS and Red Hat in the house. Manu and Joel, thank you so much for being here. Love this little fist bump. Started off, that's right. Before we even got rolling, Manu, you said that you wanted this to be the best segment of, of the cubes airing. We we're doing over a hundred segments, so you're gonna have to bring the heat. >>We're ready. We're did go. Are we ready? Yeah, go. We're ready. Let's bring it on. >>We're ready. All right. I'm, I'm ready. Dave's ready. Let's do it. How's the show going for you guys real quick before we dig in? >>Yeah, I think after Covid, it's really nice to see that we're back into the 2019 level and, you know, people just want to get out, meet people, have that human touch with each other, and I think a lot of trust gets built as a functional that, so it's super amazing to see our partners and customers here at Reedman. Yeah, >>And you've got a few in the house. That's true. Just a few maybe, maybe a couple >>Very few shows can say that, by the way. Yeah, it's maybe a handful. >>I think one of the things we were saying, it's almost like the entire Silicon Valley descended in the expo hall area, so >>Yeah, it's >>For a few different reasons. There's a few different silicon defined. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Don't have strong on for you. So far >>It's, it's, it is amazing. It's the 10th year, right? It's decade, I think I've been to five and it's, it grows every single year. It's the, you have to be here. It's as simple as that. And customers from every single industry are here too. You don't get, a lot of shows have every single industry and almost every single location around the globe. So it's, it's a must, must be >>Here. Well, and the personas evolved, right? I was at reinvent number two. That was my first, and it was all developers, not all, but a lot of developers. And today it's a business mix, really is >>Totally, is a business mix. And I just, I've talked about it a little bit down the show, but the diversity on the show floor, it's the first time I've had to wait in line for the ladies' room at a tech conference. Almost a two decade career. It is, yeah. And it was really refreshing. I'm so impressed. So clearly there's a commitment to community, but also a commitment to diversity. Yeah. And, and it's brilliant to see on the show floor. This is a partnership that is robust and has been around for a little while. Money. Why don't you tell us a little bit about the partnership here? >>Yes. So Red Hand and AWS are best friends, you know, forever together. >>Aw, no wonder we got the fist bumps and all the good vibes coming out. I know, it's great. I love that >>We have a decade of working together. I think the relationship in the first phase was around running rail bundled with E two. Sure. We have about 70,000 customers that are running rail, which are running mission critical workloads such as sap, Oracle databases, bespoke applications across the state of verticals. Now, as more and more enterprise customers are finally, you know, endorsing and adopting public cloud, I think that business is just gonna continue to grow. So a, a lot of progress there. The second titration has been around, you know, developers tearing Red Hat and aws, Hey, listen, we wanna, it's getting competitive. We wanna deliver new features faster, quicker, we want scale and we want resilience. So just entire push towards devs containers. So that's the second chapter with, you know, red Hat OpenShift on aws, which launched as a, a joint manage service in 2021 last year. And I think the third phase, which you're super excited about, is just bringing the ease of consumption, one click deployment, and then having our customers, you know, benefit from the joint committed spend programs together. So, you know, making sure that re and Ansible and JBoss, the entire portfolio of Red Hat products are available on AWS marketplace. So that's the 1, 2, 3, it of our relationship. It's a decade of working together and, you know, best friends are super committed to making sure our customers and partners continue successful. >>Yeah, that he said it, he said it perfectly. 2008, I know you don't like that, but we started with Rel on demand just in 2008 before E two even had a console. So the partnership has been there, like Manu says, for a long time, we got the partnership, we got the products up there now, and we just gotta finalize that, go to market and get that gas on the fire. >>Yeah. So Graviton Outpost, local zones, you lead it into all the new stuff. So that portends, I mean, 2008, we're talking two years after the launch of s3. >>That's right. >>Right. So, and now look, so is this a harbinger of things to come with these new innovations? >>Yeah, I, I would say, you know, the innovation is a key tenant of our partnership, our relationship. So if you look at from a product standpoint, red Hat or Rel was one of the first platforms that made a support for graviton, which is basically 40% better price performance than any other distribution. Then that translated into making sure that Rel is available on all of our regions globally. So this year we launched Switzerland, Spain, India, and Red Hat was available on launch there, support for Nitro support for Outpost Rosa support on Outpost as well. So I think that relationship, that innovation on the product side, that's pretty visible. I think that innovation again then translates into what we are doing on marketplace with one click deployments we spoke about. I think the third aspect of the know innovation is around making sure that we are making our partners and our customers successful. So one of the things that we've done so far is Joe leads a, you know, a black belt team that really goes into each customer opportunity, making sure how can we help you be successful. We launched and you know, we should be able to share that on a link. After this, we launched like a big playlist, which talks about every single use case on how do you get successful and running OpenShift on aws. So that innovation on behalf of our customers partners to make them successful, that's been a key tenant for us together as >>Well. That's right. And that team that Manu is talking about, we're gonna, gonna 10 x that team this year going into January. Our fiscal yield starts in January. Love that. So yeah, we're gonna have a lot of no hiring freeze over here. Nope. No ma'am. No. Yeah, that's right. Yeah. And you know what I love about working with aws and, and, and Manu just said it very, all of that's customer driven. Every single event that we, that he just talked about in that timeline, it's customer driven, right? Customers wanted rail on demand, customers want JBoss up in the cloud, Ansible this week, you know, everything's up there now. So it's just getting that go to market tight and we're gonna, we're gonna get that done. >>So what's the algorithm for customer driven in terms of taking the input? Because if every customers saying, Hey, I this a >>Really similar >>Question right up, right? I, that's what I want. And if you know, 95% of the customers say it, Jay, maybe that's a good idea. >>Yeah, that's right. Trends. But >>Yeah. You know, 30% you might be like, mm, you know, 20%, you know, how do you guys decide when to put gas on the fire? >>No, that, I think, as I mentioned, there are about 70,000 large customers that are running rail on Easy Two, many of these customers are informing our product strategy. So we have, you know, close to about couple of thousand power users. We have customer advisory booths, and these are the, you know, customers are informing us, Hey, let's get all of the Red Hat portfolio and marketplace support for graviton, support for Outpost. Why don't we, why are we not able to dip into the consumption committed spend programs for both Red Hat and aws? That's right. So it's these power users both at the developer level as well as the guys who are actually doing large commercial consumption. They are the ones who are informing the roadmap for both Red Hat and aws. >>But do, do you codify the the feedback? >>Yeah, I'm like, I wanna see the database, >>The, I think it was, I don't know, it was maybe Chasy, maybe it was Besos, that that data beats intuition. So do you take that information and somehow, I mean, it's global, 70,000 customers, right? And they have different weights, different spending patterns, different levels of maturity. Yeah. Do you, how do you codify that and then ultimately make the decision? Yeah, I >>If, I mean, well you, you've got the strategic advisory boards, which are made up of customers and partners and you know, you get, you get a good, you gotta get a good slice of your customer base to get, and you gotta take their feedback and you gotta do something with it, right? That's the, that's the way we do it and codify it at the product level, I'm sure open source. That's, that's basically how we work at the product level, right? The most elegant solution in open source wins. And that's, that's pretty much how we do that at the, >>I would just add, I think it's also just the implicit trust that the two companies had built with each other, working in the trenches, making our customers and partners successful over the last decade. And Alex, give an example. So that manifests itself in context of like, you know, Amazon and Red Hat just published the entire roadmap for OpenShift. What are the new features that are becoming over the next six to nine to 12 months? It's open source available on GitHub. Customers can see, and then they can basically come back and give feedback like, Hey, you know, we want hip compliance. We just launched. That was a big request that was coming from our >>Customers. That is not any process >>Also for Graviton or Nvidia instances. So I I I think it's a, >>Here's the thing, the reason I'm pounding on this is because you guys have a pretty high hit rate, and I think as a >>Customer, mildly successful company >>As, as a customer advocate, the better, you know, if, if you guys make bets that pay off, it's gonna pay off for customers. Right. And because there's a lot of failures in it. Yeah. I mean, let's face it. That's >>Right. And I think, I think you said the key word bets. You place a lot of small bets. Do you have the, the innovation engine to do that? AWS is the perfect place to place those small bets. And then you, you know, pour gas on the fire when, when they take off. >>Yeah, it's a good point. I mean, it's not expensive to experiment. Yeah. >>Especially in the managed service world. Right? >>And I know you love taking things to market and you're a go to market guy. Let's talk gtm, what's got your snow pumped about GTM for 2023? >>We, we are gonna, you know, 10 x the teams that's gonna be focused on these products, right? So we're gonna also come out with a hybrid committed spend program for our customers that meet them where they want to go. So they're coming outta the data center going into a cloud. We're gonna have a nice financial model for them to do that. And that's gonna take a lot of the friction out. >>Yeah. I mean, you've nailed it. I, I think the, the fact that now entire Red Hat portfolio is available on marketplace, you can do it on one click deployment. It's deeply integrated with Amazon services and the most important part that Joel was making now customers can double dip. They can drive benefit from the consumption committed spend programs, both from Red Hat and from aws, which is amazing. Which is a game changer That's right. For many of our large >>Customers. That's right. And that, so we're gonna, we're gonna really go to town on that next year. That's, and all the, all the resources that I have, which are the technology sellers and the sas, you know, the engineers we're growing this team the most out that team. So it's, >>When you say 10 x, how many are you at now? I'm >>Curious to see where you're headed. Tell you, okay. There's not right? Oh no, there's not one. It's triple digit. Yeah, yeah. >>Today. Oh, sweet. Awesome. >>So, and it's a very sizable team. They're actually making sure that each of our customers are successful and then really making sure that, you know, no customer left behind policy. >>And it's a great point that customers love when Amazonians and Red Hats show up, they love it and it's, they want to get more of it, and we're gonna, we're gonna give it to 'em. >>Must feel great to be loved like that. >>Yeah, that's right. Yeah. Yeah. I would say yes. >>Seems like it's safe to say that there's another decade of partnership between your two companies. >>Hope so. That's right. That's the plan. >>Yeah. And I would say also, you know, just the IBM coming into the mix here. Yeah. I, you know, red Hat has informed the way we have turned around our partnership with ibm, essentially we, we signed the strategic collaboration agreement with the company. All of IBM software now runs on Rosa. So that is now also providing a lot of tailwinds both to our rail customers and as well as Rosa customers. And I think it's a very net creative, very positive for our partnership. >>That's right. It's been very positive. Yep. Yeah. >>You see the >>Billboards positive. Yeah, right. Also that, that's great. Great point, Dave. Yep. We have a, we have a new challenge, a new tradition on the cube here at Reinvent where we're, well, it's actually kind of a glamor moment for you, depending on how you leverage it. We're looking for your 32nd hot take your Instagram reel, your sizzle thought leadership, biggest takeaway, most important theme from this year's show. I know you want, right, Joel? I mean, you TM boy, I feel like you can spit the time. >>Yeah. It is all about Rosa for us. It is all in on that, that's the native OpenShift offering on aws and that's, that's the soundbite we're going go to town with. Now, I don't wanna forget all the other products that are in there, but Rosa is a, is a very key push for us this year. >>Fantastic. All right. Manu. >>I think our customers, it's getting super competitive. Our customers want to innovate just a >>Little bit. >>The enterprise customers see the cloud native companies. I wanna do what these guys are doing. I wanna develop features at a fast clip. I wanna scale, I wanna be resilient. And I think that's really the spirit that's coming out. So to Joel's point, you know, move to worlds containers, serverless, DevOps, which was like, you know, aha, something that's happening on the side of an enterprise is not becoming mainstream. The business is demanding it. The, it is becoming the centerpiece in the business strategy. So that's been really like the aha. Big thing that's happening here. >>Yeah. And those architectures are coming together, aren't they? That's correct. Right. You know, VMs and containers, it used to be one architecture and then at the other end of the spectrum is serverless. People thought of those as different things and now it's a single architecture and, and it's kind of right approach for the right job. >>And, and a compliments say to Red Hat, they do an incredible job of hiding that complexity. Yeah. Yes. And making sure that, you know, for example, just like, make it easier for the developers to create value and then, and you know, >>Yeah, that's right. Those, they were previously siloed architectures and >>That's right. OpenShift wanna be place where you wanna run containers or virtual machines. We want that to be this Yeah. Single place. Not, not go bolt on another piece of architecture to just do one or the other. Yeah. >>And hey, the hybrid cloud vision is working for ibm. No question. You know, and it's achievable. Yeah. I mean, I just, I've said unlike, you know, some of the previous, you know, visions on fixing the world with ai, hybrid cloud is actually a real problem that you're attacking and it's showing the results. Agreed. Oh yeah. >>Great. Alright. Last question for you guys. Cause it might be kind of fun, 10 years from now, oh, we're at another, we're sitting here, we all look the same. Time has passed, but we are not aging, which is a part of the new technology that's come out in skincare. That's my, I'm just throwing that out there. Why not? What do you guys hope that you can say about the partnership and, and your continued commitment to community? >>Oh, that's a good question. You go first this time. Yeah. >>I think, you know, the, you know, for looking into the future, you need to look into the past. And Amazon has always been driven by working back from our customers. That's like our key tenant, principle number 1 0 1. >>Couple people have said that on this stage this week. Yeah. >>Yeah. And I think our partnership, I hope over the next decade continues to keep that tenant as a centerpiece. And then whatever comes out of that, I think we, we are gonna be, you know, working through that. >>Yeah. I, I would say this, I think you said that, well, the customer innovation is gonna lead us to wherever that is. And it's, it's, it's gonna be in the cloud for sure. I think we can say that in 10 years. But yeah, anything from, from AI to the quant quantum computing that IBM's really pushing behind that, you know, those are, those are gonna be things that hopefully we show up on a, on a partnership with Manu in 10 years, maybe sooner. >>Well, whatever happens next, we'll certainly be covering it here on the cube. That's right. Thank you both for being here. Joel Manu, fantastic interview. Thanks to see you guys. Yeah, good to see you brought the energy. I think you're definitely ranking high on the top interviews. We >>Love that for >>The day. >>Thank >>My pleasure >>Job, guys. Now that you're competitive at all, and thank you all for tuning in to our live coverage here from AWS Reinvent in Las Vegas, Nevada, with Dave Valante. I'm Savannah Peterson. You're watching The Cube, the leading source for high tech coverage.

>> Announcer: From around the globe, it's the queue with digital coverage of DockerCon live 2020. Brought to you by Docker and its ecosystem partners. >> Welcome, welcome, welcome to DockerCon 2020. We got over 50,000 people registered so there's clearly a ton of interest in the world of Docker and Eddie's as I like to call it. And we've assembled a power panel of Open Source and cloud native experts to talk about where things stand in 2020 and where we're headed. I'm Shawn Conley, I'll be the moderator for today's panel. I'm also a proud alum of JBoss, Red Hat, SpringSource, VMware and Hortonworks and I'm broadcasting from my hometown of Philly. Our panelists include; Michelle Noorali, Senior Software Engineer at Microsoft, joining us from Atlanta, Georgia. We have Kelsey Hightower, Principal developer advocate at Google Cloud, joining us from Washington State and we have Chris Aniszczyk, CTO CIO at the CNCF, joining us from Austin, Texas. So I think we have the country pretty well covered. Thank you all for spending time with us on this power panel. Chris, I'm going to start with you, let's dive right in. You've been in the middle of the Docker netease wave since the beginning with a clear focus on building a better world through open collaboration. What are your thoughts on how the Open Source landscape has evolved over the past few years? Where are we in 2020? And where are we headed from both community and a tech perspective? Just curious to get things sized up? >> Sure, when CNCF started about roughly four, over four years ago, the technology mostly focused on just the things around Kubernetes, monitoring communities with technology like Prometheus, and I think in 2020 and the future, we definitely want to move up the stack. So there's a lot of tools being built on the periphery now. So there's a lot of tools that handle running different types of workloads on Kubernetes. So things like Uvert and Shay runs VMs on Kubernetes, which is crazy, not just containers. You have folks that, Microsoft experimenting with a project called Kruslet which is trying to run web assembly workloads natively on Kubernetes. So I think what we've seen now is more and more tools built around the periphery, while the core of Kubernetes has stabilized. So different technologies and spaces such as security and different ways to run different types of workloads. And at least that's kind of what I've seen. >> So do you have a fair amount of vendors as well as end users still submitting in projects in, is there still a pretty high volume? >> Yeah, we have 48 total projects in CNCF right now and Michelle could speak a little bit more to this being on the DOC, the pipeline for new projects is quite extensive and it covers all sorts of spaces from two service meshes to security projects and so on. So it's ever so expanding and filling in gaps in that cloud native landscape that we have. >> Awesome. Michelle, Let's head to you. But before we actually dive in, let's talk a little glory days. A rumor has it that you are the Fifth Grade Kickball Championship team captain. (Michelle laughs) Are the rumors true? >> They are, my speech at the end of the year was the first talk I ever gave. But yeah, it was really fun. I wasn't captain 'cause I wasn't really great at anything else apart from constantly cheer on the team. >> A little better than my eighth grade Spelling Champ Award so I think I'd rather have the kickball. But you've definitely, spent a lot of time leading an Open Source, you've been across many projects for many years. So how does the art and science of collaboration, inclusivity and teamwork vary? 'Cause you're involved in a variety of efforts, both in the CNCF and even outside of that. And then what are some tips for expanding the tent of Open Source projects? >> That's a good question. I think it's about transparency. Just come in and tell people what you really need to do and clearly articulate your problem, more clearly articulate your problem and why you can't solve it with any other solution, the more people are going to understand what you're trying to do and be able to collaborate with you better. What I love about Open Source is that where I've seen it succeed is where incentives of different perspectives and parties align and you're just transparent about what you want. So you can collaborate where it makes sense, even if you compete as a company with another company in the same area. So I really like that, but I just feel like transparency and honesty is what it comes down to and clearly communicating those objectives. >> Yeah, and the various foundations, I think one of the things that I've seen, particularly Apache Software Foundation and others is the notion of checking your badge at the door. Because the competition might be between companies, but in many respects, you have engineers across many companies that are just kicking butt with the tech they contribute, claiming victory in one way or the other might make for interesting marketing drama. But, I think that's a little bit of the challenge. In some of the, standards-based work you're doing I know with CNI and some other things, are they similar, are they different? How would you compare and contrast into something a little more structured like CNCF? >> Yeah, so most of what I do is in the CNCF, but there's specs and there's projects. I think what CNCF does a great job at is just iterating to make it an easier place for developers to collaborate. You can ask the CNCF for basically whatever you need, and they'll try their best to figure out how to make it happen. And we just continue to work on making the processes are clearer and more transparent. And I think in terms of specs and projects, those are such different collaboration environments. Because if you're in a project, you have to say, "Okay, I want this feature or I want this bug fixed." But when you're in a spec environment, you have to think a little outside of the box and like, what framework do you want to work in? You have to think a little farther ahead in terms of is this solution or this decision we're going to make going to last for the next how many years? You have to get more of a buy in from all of the key stakeholders and maintainers. So it's a little bit of a longer process, I think. But what's so beautiful is that you have this really solid, standard or interface that opens up an ecosystem and allows people to build things that you could never have even imagined or dreamed of so-- >> Gotcha. So I'm Kelsey, we'll head over to you as your focus is on, developer advocate, you've been in the cloud native front lines for many years. Today developers are faced with a ton of moving parts, spanning containers, functions, Cloud Service primitives, including container services, server-less platforms, lots more, right? I mean, there's just a ton of choice. How do you help developers maintain a minimalist mantra in the face of such a wealth of choice? I think minimalism I hear you talk about that periodically, I know you're a fan of that. How do you pass that on and your developer advocacy in your day to day work? >> Yeah, I think, for most developers, most of this is not really the top of mind for them, is something you may see a post on Hacker News, and you might double click into it. Maybe someone on your team brought one of these tools in and maybe it leaks up into your workflow so you're forced to think about it. But for most developers, they just really want to continue writing code like they've been doing. And the best of these projects they'll never see. They just work, they get out of the way, they help them with log in, they help them run their application. But for most people, this isn't the core idea of the job for them. For people in operations, on the other hand, maybe these components fill a gap. So they look at a lot of this stuff that you see in the CNCF and Open Source space as number one, various companies or teams sharing the way that they do things, right? So these are ideas that are put into the Open Source, some of them will turn into products, some of them will just stay as projects that had mutual benefit for multiple people. But for the most part, it's like walking through an ion like Home Depot. You pick the tools that you need, you can safely ignore the ones you don't need, and maybe something looks interesting and maybe you study it to see if that if you have a problem. And for most people, if you don't have that problem that that tool solves, you should be happy. No one needs every project and I think that's where the foundation for confusion. So my main job is to help people not get stuck and confused in LAN and just be pragmatic and just use the tools that work for 'em. >> Yeah, and you've spent the last little while in the server-less space really diving into that area, compare and contrast, I guess, what you found there, minimalist approach, who are you speaking to from a server-less perspective versus that of the broader CNCF? >> The thing that really pushed me over, I was teaching my daughter how to make a website. So she's on her Chromebook, making a website, and she's hitting 127.0.0.1, and it looks like geo cities from the 90s but look, she's making website. And she wanted her friends to take a look. So she copied and paste from her browser 127.0.0.1 and none of her friends could pull it up. So this is the point where every parent has to cross that line and say, "Hey, do I really need to sit down "and teach my daughter about Linux "and Docker and Kubernetes." That isn't her main goal, her goal was to just launch her website in a way that someone else can see it. So we got Firebase installed on her laptop, she ran one command, Firebase deploy. And our site was up in a few minutes, and she sent it over to her friend and there you go, she was off and running. The whole server-less movement has that philosophy as one of the stated goal that needs to be the workflow. So, I think server-less is starting to get closer and closer, you start to see us talk about and Chris mentioned this earlier, we're moving up the stack. Where we're going to up the stack, the North Star there is feel where you get the focus on what you're doing, and not necessarily how to do it underneath. And I think server-less is not quite there yet but every type of workload, stateless web apps check, event driven workflows check, but not necessarily for things like machine learning and some other workloads that more traditional enterprises want to run so there's still work to do there. So server-less for me, serves as the North Star for why all these Projects exists for people that may have to roll their own platform, to provide the experience. >> So, Chris, on a related note, with what we were just talking about with Kelsey, what's your perspective on the explosion of the cloud native landscape? There's, a ton of individual projects, each can be used separately, but in many cases, they're like Lego blocks and used together. So things like the surface mesh interface, standardizing interfaces, so things can snap together more easily, I think, are some of the approaches but are you doing anything specifically to encourage this cross fertilization and collaboration of bug ability, because there's just a ton of projects, not only at the CNCF but outside the CNCF that need to plug in? >> Yeah, I mean, a lot of this happens organically. CNCF really provides of the neutral home where companies, competitors, could trust each other to build interesting technology. We don't force integration or collaboration, it happens on its own. We essentially allow the market to decide what a successful project is long term or what an integration is. We have a great Technical Oversight Committee that helps shepherd the overall technical vision for the organization and sometimes steps in and tries to do the right thing when it comes to potentially integrating a project. Previously, we had this issue where there was a project called Open Tracing, and an effort called Open Census, which is basically trying to standardize how you're going to deal with metrics, on the tree and so on in a cloud native world that we're essentially competing with each other. The CNCF TC and committee came together and merged those projects into one parent ever called Open Elementary and so that to me is a case study of how our committee helps, bridges things. But we don't force things, we essentially want our community of end users and vendors to decide which technology is best in the long term, and we'll support that. >> Okay, awesome. And, Michelle, you've been focused on making distributed systems digestible, which to me is about simplifying things. And so back when Docker arrived on the scene, some people referred to it as developer dopamine, which I love that term, because it's simplified a bunch of crufty stuff for developers and actually helped them focus on doing their job, writing code, delivering code, what's happening in the community to help developers wire together multi-part modern apps in a way that's elegant, digestible, feels like a dopamine rush? >> Yeah, one of the goals of the(mumbles) project was to make it easier to deploy an application on Kubernetes so that you could see what the finished product looks like. And then dig into all of the things that that application is composed of, all the resources. So we're really passionate about this kind of stuff for a while now. And I love seeing projects that come into the space that have this same goal and just iterate and make things easier. I think we have a ways to go still, I think a lot of the iOS developers and JS developers I get to talk to don't really care that much about Kubernetes. They just want to, like Kelsey said, just focus on their code. So one of the projects that I really like working with is Tilt gives you this dashboard in your CLI, aggregates all your logs from your applications, And it kind of watches your application changes, and reconfigures those changes in Kubernetes so you can see what's going on, it'll catch errors, anything with a dashboard I love these days. So Yali is like a metrics dashboard that's integrated with STL, a service graph of your service mesh, and lets you see the metrics running there. I love that, I love that dashboard so much. Linkerd has some really good service graph images, too. So anything that helps me as an end user, which I'm not technically an end user, but me as a person who's just trying to get stuff up and running and working, see the state of the world easily and digest them has been really exciting to see. And I'm seeing more and more dashboards come to light and I'm very excited about that. >> Yeah, as part of the DockerCon just as a person who will be attending some of the sessions, I'm really looking forward to see where DockerCompose is going, I know they opened up the spec to broader input. I think your point, the good one, is there's a bit more work to really embrace the wealth of application artifacts that compose a larger application. So there's definitely work the broader community needs to lean in on, I think. >> I'm glad you brought that up, actually. Compose is something that I should have mentioned and I'm glad you bring that up. I want to see programming language libraries, integrate with the Compose spec. I really want to see what happens with that I think is great that they open that up and made that a spec because obviously people really like using Compose. >> Excellent. So Kelsey, I'd be remiss if I didn't touch on your January post on changelog entitled, "Monoliths are the Future." Your post actually really resonated with me. My son works for a software company in Austin, Texas. So your hometown there, Chris. >> Yeah. >> Shout out to Will and the chorus team. His development work focuses on adding modern features via micro services as extensions to the core monolith that the company was founded on. So just share some thoughts on monoliths, micro services. And also, what's deliverance dopamine from your perspective more broadly, but people usually phrase as monoliths versus micro services, but I get the sense you don't believe it's either or. >> Yeah, I think most companies from the pragmatic so one of their argument is one of pragmatism. Most companies have trouble designing any app, monolith, deployable or microservices architecture. And then these things evolve over time. Unless you're really careful, it's really hard to know how to slice these things. So taking an idea or a problem and just knowing how to perfectly compartmentalize it into individual deployable component, that's hard for even the best people to do. And double down knowing the actual solution to the particular problem. A lot of problems people are solving they're solving for the first time. It's really interesting, our industry in general, a lot of people who work in it have never solved the particular problem that they're trying to solve for the first time. So that's interesting. The other part there is that most of these tools that are here to help are really only at the infrastructure layer. We're talking freeways and bridges and toll bridges, but there's nothing that happens in the actual developer space right there in memory. So the libraries that interface to the structure logging, the libraries that deal with rate limiting, the libraries that deal with authorization, can this person make this query with this user ID? A lot of those things are still left for developers to figure out on their own. So while we have things like the brunettes and fluid D, we have all of these tools to deploy apps into those target, most developers still have the problem of everything you do above that line. And to be honest, the majority of the complexity has to be resolved right there in the app. That's the thing that's taking requests directly from the user. And this is where maybe as an industry, we're over-correcting. So we had, you said you come from the JBoss world, I started a lot of my Cisco administration, there's where we focus a little bit more on the actual application needs, maybe from a router that as well. But now what we're seeing is things like Spring Boot, start to offer a little bit more integration points in the application space itself. So I think the biggest parts that are missing now are what are the frameworks people will use for authorization? So you have projects like OPA, Open Policy Agent for those that are new to that, it gives you this very low level framework, but you still have to understand the concepts around, what does it mean to allow someone to do something and one missed configuration, all your security goes out of the window. So I think for most developers this is where the next set of challenges lie, if not actually the original challenge. So for some people, they were able to solve most of these problems with virtualization, run some scripts, virtualize everything and be fine. And monoliths were okay for that. For some reason, we've thrown pragmatism out of the window and some people are saying the only way to solve these problems is by breaking the app into 1000 pieces. Forget the fact that you had trouble managing one piece, you're going to somehow find the ability to manage 1000 pieces with these tools underneath but still not solving the actual developer problems. So this is where you've seen it already with a couple of popular blog posts from other companies. They cut too deep. They're going from 2000, 3000 microservices back to maybe 100 or 200. So to my world, it's going to be not just one monolith, but end up maybe having 10 or 20 monoliths that maybe reflect the organization that you have versus the architectural pattern that you're at. >> I view it as like a constellation of stars and planets, et cetera. Where you you might have a star that has a variety of, which is a monolith, and you have a variety of sort of planetary microservices that float around it. But that's reality, that's the reality of modern applications, particularly if you're not starting from a clean slate. I mean your points, a good one is, in many respects, I think the infrastructure is code movement has helped automate a bit of the deployment of the platform. I've been personally focused on app development JBoss as well as springsSource. The Spring team I know that tech pretty well over the years 'cause I was involved with that. So I find that James Governor's discussion of progressive delivery really resonates with me, as a developer, not so much as an infrastructure Deployer. So continuous delivery is more of infrastructure notice notion, progressive delivery, feature flags, those types of things, or app level, concepts, minimizing the blast radius of your, the new features you're deploying, that type of stuff, I think begins to speak to the pain of application delivery. So I'll guess I'll put this up. Michelle, I might aim it to you, and then we'll go around the horn, what are your thoughts on the progressive delivery area? How could that potentially begin to impact cloud native over 2020? I'm looking for some rallying cries that move up the stack and give a set of best practices, if you will. And I think James Governor of RedMonk opened on something that's pretty important. >> Yeah, I think it's all about automating all that stuff that you don't really know about. Like Flagger is an awesome progressive delivery tool, you can just deploy something, and people have been asking for so many years, ever since I've been in this space, it's like, "How do I do AB deployment?" "How do I do Canary?" "How do I execute these different deployment strategies?" And Flagger is a really good example, for example, it's a really good way to execute these deployment strategies but then, make sure that everything's happening correctly via observing metrics, rollback if you need to, so you don't just throw your whole system. I think it solves the problem and allows you to take risks but also keeps you safe in that you can be confident as you roll out your changes that it all works, it's metrics driven. So I'm just really looking forward to seeing more tools like that. And dashboards, enable that kind of functionality. >> Chris, what are your thoughts in that progressive delivery area? >> I mean, CNCF alone has a lot of projects in that space, things like Argo that are tackling it. But I want to go back a little bit to your point around developer dopamine, as someone that probably spent about a decade of his career focused on developer tooling and in fact, if you remember the Eclipse IDE and that whole integrated experience, I was blown away recently by a demo from GitHub. They have something called code spaces, which a long time ago, I was trying to build development environments that essentially if you were an engineer that joined a team recently, you could basically get an environment quickly start it with everything configured, source code checked out, environment properly set up. And that was a very hard problem. This was like before container days and so on and to see something like code spaces where you'd go to a repo or project, open it up, behind the scenes they have a container that is set up for the environment that you need to build and just have a VS code ID integrated experience, to me is completely magical. It hits like developer dopamine immediately for me, 'cause a lot of problems when you're going to work with a project attribute, that whole initial bootstrap of, "Oh you need to make sure you have this library, this install," it's so incredibly painful on top of just setting up your developer environment. So as we continue to move up the stack, I think you're going to see an incredible amount of improvements around the developer tooling and developer experience that people have powered by a lot of this cloud native technology behind the scenes that people may not know about. >> Yeah, 'cause I've been talking with the team over at Docker, the work they're doing with that desktop, enable the aim local environment, make sure it matches as closely as possible as your deployed environments that you might be targeting. These are some of the pains, that I see. It's hard for developers to get bootstrapped up, it might take him a day or two to actually just set up their local laptop and development environment, and particularly if they change teams. So that complexity really corralling that down and not necessarily being overly prescriptive as to what tool you use. So if you're visual code, great, it should feel integrated into that environment, use a different environment or if you feel more comfortable at the command line, you should be able to opt into that. That's some of the stuff I get excited to potentially see over 2020 as things progress up the stack, as you said. So, Michelle, just from an innovation train perspective, and we've covered a little bit, what's the best way for people to get started? I think Kelsey covered a little bit of that, being very pragmatic, but all this innovation is pretty intimidating, you can get mowed over by the train, so to speak. So what's your advice for how people get started, how they get involved, et cetera. >> Yeah, it really depends on what you're looking for and what you want to learn. So, if you're someone who's new to the space, honestly, check out the case studies on cncf.io, those are incredible. You might find environments that are similar to your organization's environments, and read about what worked for them, how they set things up, any hiccups they crossed. It'll give you a broad overview of the challenges that people are trying to solve with the technology in this space. And you can use that drill into the areas that you want to learn more about, just depending on where you're coming from. I find myself watching old KubeCon talks on the cloud native computing foundations YouTube channel, so they have like playlists for all of the conferences and the special interest groups in CNCF. And I really enjoy talking, I really enjoy watching excuse me, older talks, just because they explain why things were done, the way they were done, and that helps me build the tools I built. And if you're looking to get involved, if you're building projects or tools or specs and want to contribute, we have special interest groups in the CNCF. So you can find that in the CNCF Technical Oversight Committee, TOC GitHub repo. And so for that, if you want to get involved there, choose a vertical. Do you want to learn about observability? Do you want to drill into networking? Do you care about how to deliver your app? So we have a cig called app delivery, there's a cig for each major vertical, and you can go there to see what is happening on the edge. Really, these are conversations about, okay, what's working, what's not working and what are the next changes we want to see in the next months. So if you want that kind of granularity and discussion on what's happening like that, then definitely join those those meetings. Check out those meeting notes and recordings. >> Gotcha. So on Kelsey, as you look at 2020 and beyond, I know, you've been really involved in some of the earlier emerging tech spaces, what gets you excited when you look forward? What gets your own level of dopamine up versus the broader community? What do you see coming that we should start thinking about now? >> I don't think any of the raw technology pieces get me super excited anymore. Like, I've seen the circle of around three or four times, in five years, there's going to be a new thing, there might be a new foundation, there'll be a new set of conferences, and we'll all rally up and probably do this again. So what's interesting now is what people are actually using the technology for. Some people are launching new things that maybe weren't possible because infrastructure costs were too high. People able to jump into new business segments. You start to see these channels on YouTube where everyone can buy a mic and a B app and have their own podcasts and be broadcast to the globe, just for a few bucks, if not for free. Those revolutionary things are the big deal and they're hard to come by. So I think we've done a good job democratizing these ideas, distributed systems, one company got really good at packaging applications to share with each other, I think that's great, and never going to reset again. And now what's going to be interesting is, what will people build with this stuff? If we end up building the same things we were building before, and then we're talking about another digital transformation 10 years from now because it's going to be funny but Kubernetes will be the new legacy. It's going to be the things that, "Oh, man, I got stuck in this Kubernetes thing," and there'll be some governor on TV, looking for old school Kubernetes engineers to migrate them to some new thing, that's going to happen. You got to know that. So at some point merry go round will stop. And we're going to be focused on what you do with this. So the internet is there, most people have no idea of the complexities of underwater sea cables. It's beyond one or two people, or even one or two companies to comprehend. You're at the point now, where most people that jump on the internet are talking about what you do with the internet. You can have Netflix, you can do meetings like this one, it's about what you do with it. So that's going to be interesting. And we're just not there yet with tech, tech is so, infrastructure stuff. We're so in the weeds, that most people almost burn out what's just getting to the point where you can start to look at what you do with this stuff. So that's what I keep in my eye on, is when do we get to the point when people just ship things and build things? And I think the closest I've seen so far is in the mobile space. If you're iOS developer, Android developer, you use the SDK that they gave you, every year there's some new device that enables some new things speech to text, VR, AR and you import an STK, and it just worked. And you can put it in one place and 100 million people can download it at the same time with no DevOps team, that's amazing. When can we do that for server side applications? That's going to be something I'm going to find really innovative. >> Excellent. Yeah, I mean, I could definitely relate. I was Hortonworks in 2011, so, Hadoop, in many respects, was sort of the precursor to the Kubernetes area, in that it was, as I like to refer to, it was a bunch of animals in the zoo, wasn't just the yellow elephant. And when things mature beyond it's basically talking about what kind of analytics are driving, what type of machine learning algorithms and applications are they delivering? You know that's when things tip over into a real solution space. So I definitely see that. I think the other cool thing even just outside of the container and container space, is there's just such a wealth of data related services. And I think how those two worlds come together, you brought up the fact that, in many respects, server-less is great, it's stateless, but there's just a ton of stateful patterns out there that I think also need to be addressed as these richer applications to be from a data processing and actionable insights perspective. >> I also want to be clear on one thing. So some people confuse two things here, what Michelle said earlier about, for the first time, a whole group of people get to learn about distributed systems and things that were reserved to white papers, PhDs, CF site, this stuff is now super accessible. You go to the CNCF site, all the things that you read about or we used to read about, you can actually download, see how it's implemented and actually change how it work. That is something we should never say is a waste of time. Learning is always good because someone has to build these type of systems and whether they sell it under the guise of server-less or not, this will always be important. Now the other side of this is, that there are people who are not looking to learn that stuff, the majority of the world isn't looking. And in parallel, we should also make this accessible, which should enable people that don't need to learn all of that before they can be productive. So that's two sides of the argument that can be true at the same time, a lot of people get caught up. And everything should just be server-less and everyone learning about distributed systems, and contributing and collaborating is wasting time. We can't have a world where there's only one or two companies providing all infrastructure for everyone else, and then it's a black box. We don't need that. So we need to do both of these things in parallel so I just want to make sure I'm clear that it's not one of these or the other. >> Yeah, makes sense, makes sense. So we'll just hit the final topic. Chris, I think I'll ask you to help close this out. COVID-19 clearly has changed how people work and collaborate. I figured we'd end on how do you see, so DockerCon is going to virtual events, inherently the Open Source community is distributed and is used to not face to face collaboration. But there's a lot of value that comes together by assembling a tent where people can meet, what's the best way? How do you see things playing out? What's the best way for this to evolve in the face of the new normal? >> I think in the short term, you're definitely going to see a lot of virtual events cropping up all over the place. Different themes, verticals, I've already attended a handful of virtual events the last few weeks from Red Hat summit to Open Compute summit to Cloud Native summit, you'll see more and more of these. I think, in the long term, once the world either get past COVID or there's a vaccine or something, I think the innate nature for people to want to get together and meet face to face and deal with all the serendipitous activities you would see in a conference will come back, but I think virtual events will augment these things in the short term. One benefit we've seen, like you mentioned before, DockerCon, can have 50,000 people at it. I don't remember what the last physical DockerCon had but that's definitely an order of magnitude more. So being able to do these virtual events to augment potential of physical events in the future so you can build a more inclusive community so people who cannot travel to your event or weren't lucky enough to win a scholarship could still somehow interact during the course of event to me is awesome and I hope something that we take away when we start all doing these virtual events when we get back to physical events, we find a way to ensure that these things are inclusive for everyone and not just folks that can physically make it there. So those are my thoughts on on the topic. And I wish you the best of luck planning of DockerCon and so on. So I'm excited to see how it turns out. 50,000 is a lot of people and that just terrifies me from a cloud native coupon point of view, because we'll probably be somewhere. >> Yeah, get ready. Excellent, all right. So that is a wrap on the DockerCon 2020 Open Source Power Panel. I think we covered a ton of ground. I'd like to thank Chris, Kelsey and Michelle, for sharing their perspectives on this continuing wave of Docker and cloud native innovation. I'd like to thank the DockerCon attendees for tuning in. And I hope everybody enjoys the rest of the conference. (upbeat music)

(electronic music) >> Presenter: Live from Boston, Massachusetts. It's theCUBE! Covering Red Hat Summit 2019, brought to you by Red Hat (electronic music) >> Welcome back here on The Cube, continuing our live coverage at Red Hat Summit 2019 as we come to a near conclusion of our three days of wall to wall coverage for you here. All the keynotes, it's been and the guests we've had just a lot of fun and certainly an educational opportunity for Stu Menimen and myself and we're looking forward to our next couple of guests here. We have Khurshid Sohail, an application developer at UPS and Nish Jani, a senior application development manager at UPS. Gentlemen, thank you for joining us. We appreciate the time. [Developers] Thanks for having us. >> Presenter: Thank you. And so you have representation on the keynote stage of this morning. UPS did, talking about some of the changes underway there and your Red Hat relationship for those at home who work privy to that. Just to set the stage for in terms of what you're doing with Red Hat and what you're gonna be doing with them as they came up with a couple of releases this week. Nish, if you would? >> Sure. So as you know, UPS is delivering products and services to over 200 countries and from a scalability perspective, we deliver over 21,000,000 packages per day and during our peak season, it grows to over 30,000,000 packages a day, and last year we averaged 200,000,000 tracks a day on our tracking system and last peak we went to 335,000,000 tracks in a single day and that was all built on a new open-shift platform that we developed. >> Just a little bit of data. >> Yeah. >> All right. >> Yeah, you know I love when you talk to, you know, so many customers today who scale and it's like "oh, okay. How many transactions we have." It's like "oh, you talk logistics", you're like oh, okay. You talked a lot of numbers there but when you talk about the driver and how many officers they have and the amount of data that goes in. It's like, okay, how many supercomputers do you have? And you know, hundreds of PhDs solving this. Maybe we're just a little bit in tide, you know, the logistical pieces that go there and how, you know, I mean this is not, you know, a just "Okay, go do your route" as we have in the past. >> Yeah, so from a driver perspective, we've offered services to the drivers that take out the human search for needing to deliver packages. We have an orion system which tells the driver exactly where to go and where to deliver the packages and optimize the routes for them from a visibility perspective which is the products and services Khurshid and I support. The driver is able to do their jobs and deliver their status and deliver packages on time so for our customers, they see an updated status in real time. From a VI perspective, which is our visibility information business engine which was our new platform that we built last year, it was a long journey into the process, part of our digital transformation. We got into the transformation as a need for customers who wanted more out of their products and services that we offered today, and as far as being able to do faster market and provide visibility in a real-time sense. >> Presenter: Yeah. >> We always love when you hear some of these digital transformations. Like okay, you know, I think if UPS does logistics, those were pretty complicated before. >> Absolutely. So, like you needed a digital transformation. Maybe we could start with, you know, what were some of the objectives, what were we, you know, what was holding you back or limited before and you know, let's go to the after when you get through there. >> Sure. So before we were on a monolithic system, a legacy system and the costs per track were very expensive and your to drive new need we needed to redevelop ourselves and redesign ourselves and the way we did that was we transformed by moving away from our traditional waterfall models which typically took six months to deploy new services and we went to within weeks, and the way we did that was to develop agile methodologies and using open-shift we were able to develop and deploy applications more quickly and Khurshid can talk a little bit more about VI application and how it works. >> So pretty much what our goal was to get the old track system off the legacy model off into a containerized, on premise, cloud-based platform. So we successfully accomplished that, essentially 20 years worth of data we did in a year, so we're pretty proud of that, not to toot our own horn, but yeah. We got everything going with open-shift, and a couple of other Red Hat products like AMQ, JBoss, Fuse for AMQ and we also worked like Nish mentioned with the agile methodologies and principles so we were successfully able to create a type of environment for other applications that UPS see as a, you know, kind of a look up to so other applications can see what we've did and they can get themselves over in the same direction. >> Yeah, so can you bring us inside a little bit the organization. Was this a new team that came in? Was there a combination of the new and old? You know, the retraining. >> Yeah, so the team was formed out of some of the old members of the team that knew visibility inside and out. My team done the front-end of UPS.com's tracking application and we've brought in team members that were new and were able to develop the application in a short amount of time. So we've nearly formed a team, we've put together a parallel path from the old system to the new system then we transitioned over and it was seamless to the custom. >> You were talking about customer choice, we were speaking earlier before just about competition, so you have to be extremely responsive to customer needs and my choice is something that comes to my mind that you offer that gives great flexibility to a customer but tremendous complexity I would think to you because you have kind of like an X and a Y, you have a package, you've got a delivery point and now you throw the Z in with a time of day change or location change and to coordinate that so your efficiencies, your fuel efficiencies and route efficiencies are still maintained. And how do you do that in your environment? And whether that's something that Red Hat, is that something that is enabled by the technology that you're deploying of theirs? >> Sure, from a visibility perspective my choice product? have been very successful. We're able to deliver B to C packages to our individual customers or our consignees which help them choose where and when they want their package and also be able to see a delivery time. From a complexity perspective, sure. It adds a ton of complexity because we need to know what addresses to go to and what changes are done to the packages prior to them being delivered. From an open-shift perspective, that's partly going to be our digital transformation to transform that visibility and provide that information and bringing more products and services to those customers and lower latency of time. >> Okay, so containerization is something that's relatively prevalent for the audience here, but it's still relatively young in maturity. Just wondering as you rolled out the solutions, any learnings you had or any, you know, I don't want to say stumbling blocks, but you know, things that you learned along the way that maybe your peers should, could learn for. >> Yeah, I mean, I think you should say stumbling blocks 'cus as anybody knows, whenever you go through anything new there's opportunities to learn and there's monumental opportunities of failure and I think UPS knows and we've pride ourselves in failing fast, learning from our mistakes and getting to the next level. So like you mentioned with containerization and open-shift, the ability for us when we used to deploy every six months, now we get to deploy in two weeks to production and before that we could deploy in a matter of minutes so we could test all these tools and everything that open-shift offers gives us the ability to serve our business and give the most information to our customers. So open-shift and Red Hat have done a great job in helping us reach our maximum potential and we look to continue that partnership. >> Yeah, so was there anything, you know, in that speed to delivery and being more agile that, you know, "Oh jeez, security, "we should have pulled them in sooner." Or you know, so and so should have, but we forgot to include them in the original discussions. >> No, when we went through the transformation of moving the tracking application, we went through all the options and open-shift was just a natural partner, a natural fit. At the time we were going through a proof of concept with the product with another team and as the VI project came along it was just a natural fit to use containerization and use the speed of deployment, automated testing and pipelines in order to deploy this new application. (coughing) >> You used an interesting phrase there, for shit about failing fast and we've heard that a couple of times this week in different flavors. What about the lack of fear and failure and almost like that failure is not always a bad thing because it leads to improvement. But you have to have a certain amount of confidence underpinning that. So talk, I'm just curious from a company culture standpoint, what kind of confidence is there about that failing fast and how technology allows you to make up the ground that you might have lost by failure, especially in today's world, there's so much more capability and so much more at your disposal. >> Yeah, so I may, I think that benefits us and allows us to fail fast is management like Nish and our upper level management, they give us the opportunity to make these mistakes because they know we're going to learn from them and just talking about open-shift and like you said, when we fail, we have to make up that ground. When we make those mistakes the platform that we're on allows us to pivot from that and make it a success story right away. So we noticed that we were able to learn from mistakes quickly and with the help and support of management we were able to implement real-time solutions and deploy them right away. >> Yeah, in addition to that we're able to deploy in a short period of time so we know we're at a minimum two weeks away from the next deployment. So we could quickly restore functionality within minutes or within days if necessary. So, you know, previously we weren't able to do that, so fail fast didn't quite work in the waterfall method. >> So Nish, you know, the VI project has rolled out. What does that mean to your relationship to the business? And also ultimately, how has it impacted your ultimate customers? >> Sure, so from an external customer perspective, obviously we're able to, speed to market products and services faster to our customers and provide better visibility to the customers. From internally in the organization, we've significantly reduced our cost to serve and as we continue to transform on the VI platform using open-shift and partnering with Red Hat, we'll be able to transform other visibility products in the future and going forward we're able to take folks like Khurshid and develop them further and use our skill sets that we've learned and develop our people faster. >> So where do you want to jump in next? I mean, in your world Krashid, I would think that's probably one of the more exciting questions is, you know, what now? What next? Where are we going with this? In terms of your core business, you know, where's the efficiency gain that you'd like to see? Where's the customer service you'd like to improve? >> Yeah I mean, from a business perspective we're always looking to serve our business and bring products to platform that are gonna be useful to the customers. So what we currently have in VI today, we're looking to create more visibility products for our customers and from a technical standpoint, and we were at Red Hat Summit 2019, they've announced some crazy cool things. >> What's the craziest cool thing you've heard this week? >> We're looking forward to open-shift 4, we're looking forward to Cofcus Dreams, and Corcus which is really cool, and just operators, the list goes on and on. I could talk to you about it for days and days. We were here for three days, you got three more days ready? >> Sure. (laughing) Tape is cheap. (laughing) >> Yeah, we're looking forward to a lot of cool things that Red Hat's going to provide and we're gonna run with it. >> Yeah. We're looking forward to continued relationship with Red Hat and offering new products and services that can make our businesses run better. >> Like for example, if you could, if I were to say, a military build a rocket ship right now, you know, what's it gonna look like? What area of your business would you like to literally dabble in and say "Okay, I think this will work." It might right now, look to be a little bit futuristic or down the road, what scenario could you paint possibly to give us an idea about what you're thinking? >> So our next focus to business is to serve up the small and medium business, right? So we've been talking about the modulus product and serving residential addresses and serving residential folks but we want to start focusing on the small and medium businesses and offering the same services and capabilities so our next plateau, our next capability is to provide those services to the small and medium businesses so they can grow and partner with UPS. >> And I think, as Nish mentioned, with the utilizations from Cofcun actually bringing some of these technologies into our containers, bringing more security layers like there's a lot of great vendors here and partnering with them and bringing them into our services, it will open the doors for us a lot, and like Nish mentioned with my choice and small business, I think will allow them a better customer experience with partnering up with some of these new people. >> Presenter: You bet. Well thank you both. Thanks for being here and sharing your time, good to see you. Good keynote this morning as well, so please be sure to pass that along and we look forward to seeing you down the road. >> Developers: Thank you. >> Thank you both. Back with more coverage from Red Hat Summit 2019, you are watching theCUBE live from Boston. (electronic music)

live from San Francisco it's the cube covering Red Hat summit 2018 brought to you by Red Hat hey welcome back everyone we're here live in San Francisco red hat summit 2018 s cubes exclusive coverage we're out in the open in the middle of floor here as open source has always done out in the open it's the cube doing our part extracting the cylinders I'm John for the co-host of the cube with John Troy you might coast analyst this week he's the co-founder of a firm advisory firm our guest case is Paul Comey a president and products on technology of Red Hat architecting the future of red hat and products and technologies all open source great to see you again major see you so thank you coming on so great keynote today you guys have done a great job here I thought the messaging was great but the excitement was strong we just came back off of a week in Copenhagen coop con where kubernetes clearly sees the de facto standard around kubernetes the core kubernetes with a lot of room to differentiate around you got sto service meshes a lot of exciting things for application developers and then under the hood and the new life being brought into OpenStack so there's clear visibility now into what's going on swim lanes whatever we call it people kind of see it so congratulations thank you magical moment Lucky Strike all on the cards give us some color you guys been working on this for a while go back and where did it all start and when did things start clicking together for you guys well I know I sometimes sound like a broken record here but I mean the key to our success is the commercialization of Linux I mean you know Linux we started Linux as a commodity play you know it was cheaper cheaper almost as good et cetera but it became such a powerful platform all the innovation you just talked about is built around Linux it's all tied into Linux so once we lay down the Linux base and the customer and the customer data centers which is such the logical extension to go to these new technologies because it really you really need to be a Linux vendor in order to be able to do a kubernetes to release to be able to support our containers release any of these things it's all just intertwining the Linux and your model is working honestly the open source is no secret that that's open open it's over proprietary and closed but you also have a community model that's feeding into the price of technologies Jim Weider zzyx you know went into detail on hey you don't you know you have a crystal ball and technology because you're smart guys but ultimately the users in the communities give you direct feedback of what's relevant and cool at the right time this is really where kubernetes Lucky Strike for you guys was really there you saw it so the commitment you jumped in can you explain that dynamic of how the products get fed in from the communities I'll give you actually a better example of OpenShift itself so we originally started OpenShift back in 2011 and we started it as a marketing project we started it as a as a cloud-based platform to get developers out there building to our platform and a lot of our customer base saw it and came to us and said I want this as a product this is really really powerful so we made a product out of it first one kubernetes wasn't around containers weren't around we'd built it on virtual machines we had we had what we called gears to lock in and and then containers started to morph in and read by release three we transformed it to containers then we brought in kubernetes because we had worked with the Google folks earlier on that so we really listened to our customers we started at something we thought was going to be an expense and it turns out to be you know one of our hottest our hottest platform right now based on what our customers in the community told us timings everything - and the good timing is as the clouds took the scale started also becoming relevant you see Amazon success now you got as your IBM and everyone's kind of seeing that opportunity how are you guys looking at the container piece because you know we can look at the history and docker you know trying to monetize too early we've been you know we've documented that it went well in the cube many times core OS a recent acquisition big one for you guys and strategic but also a great team containers are super important talk about the role of containers specifically not so much as a business model but as a lynchpin right between how orchestration is moving and how these service messages are coming out I mean you think just real quickly what containers are first containers are just Linux carved up in a different way you still have a kernel still have user space the difference is you take just the user space you want with the application and you run it that way so all the same life cycles security issues you have to fix etc they have to do on a standard Linux have to do it in containers the first thing containers been around forever they were in units if we all if we all remember but the killer app for containers was because now when I can bring just enough two of the OS with the application I can run that to the cloud that's how we get the app out to the cloud that's how we get it onto the private cloud out to any of the public clouds how we reverse the clouds so even though they've been around for a while it's the killer app for containers so you mentioned hybrid cloud hybrid cloud multi-cloud are there are the terms it's this week we hear them a lot that been up on stage one way of putting it is is thinking about that different places of deploying but in one you are really saying that it doesn't matter where you deploy there's there's layers of an especially openshift can take you to different clouds it location doesn't matter anymore can you drill down on that a little bit absolutely I mean our our whole we took a bed I mean it sounds obvious now it always does right we took a bed on hybrid cloud I've been talking about it for six or seven years and what it means is customers are going to have applications that run on bare metal they're going to have running as virtual machines probably on VMware they're going to maybe run their private clouds maybe containers maybe across multiple clouds end of the day it's it's Linux underneath that what customers don't want is five different operating because every Linux is slightly different they don't want five different operating environments they want and want one so what we do with rel and with openshift is we give you that abstraction layer for your application to code once and you can move that app anywhere I mean the clouds the public clouds have brought a tremendous amount of innovation and I don't want to say this in a derogatory way but in some sense they're like a mainframe because they have their stack all the way up to there a flick their products are their services and so you start you start up you start up a service of server lists of lambda that's never leaving Amazon never so so it's great in many cases if that's ok for that app but there's a lot of cases you might want to run the app here one day and there the next day so you really need an abstraction layer to ensure that you have that portability and that's what shift and containers are so important right I hear things like de-facto standard and abstraction layers the bells go up opportunity because you now that's where complexity can be reduced down when you have good at rational layers but we've been interviewing folks here and the some themes have come up about the sea change that we're facing this cloud scale new Internet infrastructure going on globally and the two points are tcp/ip moment you know during that time that was networking even and that disrupted decnet today and others and then HTTP both are different HTV was all new capabilities the web disrupt the Direct Mail and other things analog leaving but he stupid created inter inter networking basis right Cisco and everything else here what containers what's interesting and I want to get your reaction to this is that with containers I don't have to kill the old to bring in the new I can do the new and then let the lifecycle of those workloads take a natural natural course this is a good thing for enterprise they don't have to rush in do a rip and replace they don't have to react attacked hire new people at massive scale talk about that dynamic is that seems to be what's happening it's exactly what's heavy you know we did a bunch of demos on stage this week I think nine of them live the coolest demo was the one where we showed we actually took a Windows virtual machine with a Windows SQL based virtual machine from VMware with tools we brought that over to a KVM environment which is it's a different format for the VM brought that to a KVM environment we then use tools to slice it up into two containers one being the app itself the other being at SQL and we deployed it out to openshift and we could eventually have deployed out to any public cloud that's significant for two reasons first of all you're now seeing kubernetes orchestrating VMs right beside containers so you can kind of see where that's going right so that's really that's interesting for the operators now because now they get they bring whittled down some of that complex it's really interest interesting for the developers because from a perspective they're going to be asked to bring these traditional virtual machines into containers in the old world they have to go to a VMware front-end to do that then they have to come over here to a route to a to a rev or rel front-end to do it now they can just bring their VM with tools over work on it split it up into containers and deploy it it's it's its efficiency adds at its best and shift without any effort without any effort really how about the impact of the customers because this is to me that the big money moment because that means an enterprise can actually progress and accelerate their digital transformation or whatever they got going on to a new architecture a new internet infrastructure we hear things like Network effect decentralized storage with with blockchain new capabilities that aren't measured by traditional older stacks that we've seen an e-commerce DNS and other things so a shifts happening the shifts have a cloud scale I say synchronous the pile are these cars with a scalable whole new way let's see what does that mean for customers what it means for customers is two things that are important the shift is happening you're getting tools and you're getting tools and platforms to make that shift more seamless and you know I'd love to say it's all red head engineers that are giving you this but the reason why it's moving so fast is because it's open so the innovation comes from anywhere it's way too big of a problem for any one customer to solve where we're just helping our customers consume it that's one thing but I think the other thing is important is that's important is not every application is going to be suited to go to a container based application so because it's all on that rel common layer our customers can still have one operating environment and have have compatibility as they do the shift but still keep their business going over here maybe forever these apps may never come off a bare-metal for example Paul I wanted to talk a little bit about Red Hat scope inside IT I love the the connection that between you know the container layer that is just Linux but and also the standards layer but you know now that we're up at threat you know with the with open shift and with multi cloud you know global huge scale operation there's a lot there's a lot more involved right cloud layout level ops is you now at Red Hat is involved with with process and and culture and you have a lot more than just you have a lot more that you're involved in helping IT with than just a Linux and some and connection to the back to the machine so can you talk a little bit about about what you're trying to do with the customer great it's a great point then when I started with a company 17 years ago we weren't talking to CIOs in fact the CIOs we were in that we were coming in the back door the operations people were bringing Linux in the back door and they the CIOs didn't even know it was run in there and but now as you said we're CIOs are trying to figure out how does public cloud fit into my IT environment how does a multiple public cloud fit in out of containers fit in what do I do with my older applications where there re architecting that's at the cio level now you know they're having to re architecture architect for the next generation computing so we've had to build services around that we have labs we have innovation labs where we bring our customers in and work with them and help them you know figure out and help them map out where they're going for the first time we actually I've had cut many customers tell me so is this is the with openshift it's the first time I've got my developers in my Ops people in the same room and we've facilitated that discussion because no one's right it's gotta be one one motion and so that's that's the interesting part for us we've really moved up the chain and our customer base because we're almost a consultative sale now to help them get to the next generation talk about the enabling aspect of this because I referenced tcp/ip and HTTP but now if you go forward and say okay we're gonna have this new environment it's not just about redheads by Linux it's about the operating system which you guys obviously offer for free and then have services around it and have stopped software how is Linux with the new capability of open shift and standards like kubernetes with containers how in your opinion is that an enabling an opportunity for ecosystem new startups and enterprises themselves because we see if this happens and continues to happen oh yeah it's going to be a new names gonna come out of the woodwork new startups gonna happen you see you see it every day I mean you wouldn't do a start-up today that wasn't software wise it wasn't based on Linux and and and that's why in all the innovation today because all the innovation today is based on Linux you know one of the things we and that we released last week a cube con is I don't know if you saw it or not we released a kubernetes SDK and it can track or OS it couldn't came with the core OS guys we put that out into the community it's really an SDK for ISVs and software but vendors to build into the api's of kubernetes in an open way so that once they get out into the commercial world they're ready that's how significant we all think that kubernetes is going to be i we think that's where the services are going to hang in the infrastructure but but having said that I think it also tells you that you know the impact that these open technologies are having on the future I wanna get into the chorus in a minute but I want to ask you about the white spaces so if someone who's that in charge of the troops inside Red Hat products and technologies where's the white space opportunities that people can dig in and and build out innovation around this major shift that you guys are on this wave where's the opportunity for the channel partners the integrators globe last night's developers anyone where's the key areas I mean with our platforms of open shift and OpenStack we have we have certified entry points via api's in storage networking management so we've got hybrid management but certainly we don't think we're gonna do everything in management by any stretch we have it we have a set of api's from management partners to plug in and by the way what I tell my my management R&D folks no hidden api same api's we use they use so so storage is another area new storage solutions networking certainly AI is one of the areas one of the things we showcased here was AI permeating through our entire product line I don't know if you saw the face recognition demo out there but it was it was pretty cool in and even if you want to consume that AI through one of the cloud providers we can pass you straight through from openshift to consume it that way as well on automation I want to get your thoughts on something we've talked a few days ago here on the cube was automation is great so let's give an example I'm automating a service you know if it's a coop with kubernetes and containers and as a memory leak right and every boots but automates I don't know so you got to have a new level of instrumentation down at the code level how do you see that playing out because now we got to be smarter about what's working and not working because I might not never know just reboots intermittently give me some mystery was a memory link could be something else but but that's so this is one of the places where using AI so we've been we've been our first stint with AI came out of our support group so we've been supporting Linux and open source for 25 years got a massive database of what failures were what the fixes were we started using AI in a support group to point our reps at a particular article based symptoms that they were hearing from our we realized we had about an 80% hit rate on you know on getting to our reps to the right to the right article so now we've built that into the products and so we use that AI like for example OpenShift IO which is at one of our developer platforms developers trying to link in a library we can tell them you know what there's a new there's a newer version of that library you know what that library has a security flaw in and at this line of code maybe you want to consider using another one but it's from our years and years of doing this that we're building that day database I mean oai is only so good as the data that you fed it and so have a certain level of granularity down to do you do it and then also ai it also is a reason why all our services are now on open shift because you're absolutely right if I've got a raw JBoss service running on raw Amazon I can't instrument that underneath because Amazon's got that layer closed if I have open shifts there and it's in the infrastructure is open shift even running in Amazon or sure anywhere we can now instrument that to look at some of the things we need to look at to recognize an event a week or or whatever Paul talk about their journey with kora West obviously we've been super excited by that we've been following Korres from the beginning great technical team pure open-source guys and in that container part of the evolution in time everyone's trying to force a business model and you're really hard to force a business model is something that too early or might not even be relevant to build the business around it might be a feature not a company kind of thing so you guys put a big price tag on them sizable chunk of cash how did it all play out you guys just like hey wow we're gonna we wait like these guys they're super technical meeting of the minds and then how that has fit in from a product and technology stand a little bit a little of all of that of course the benefit of being you know having the open source development in in your DNA as we knew them all right so we knew how good they were because they we work our guys work with them every day so that was something when they decided early on like us to go to kubernetes they became a big part of the of the community of kubernetes in our model from day one you can't be an open-source provider if you're not strong in the upstream community because how can you affect what your customers are asking you to do if you and effect upstream they were big in the upstream big and kubernetes and so at that point we that's what we just said they had done some interesting things that we hadn't got to they did a lot of the automation they were doing over-the-air updates of the container platforms a week which we hadn't got to yet they had a really good following in the community so we decided you know we paid a we paid a hefty price but at this stage of the game we really feel that we took an early bit in kubernetes we really feel that that's gonna be the future in containers if there's gonna be a place a place that you pay maybe a little more this is the place well Paul I think another example is ansible a year or two back right and that's been a remained a huge success and I can say you haven't messed it up right and it's it's it's been powerful accomplished well most acquisitions you know and in end in tears so it seems like RedHat seems to be good at this kind of an open source acquisition we we get to interview them for two years before we bring them in based on well how we work in the community but you know we're very where we're bringing in people I don't I hate to say the word M&A or acquisition I just hate that word because we're just joining forces here you know it just took a a big check to do it yeah and you guys have the business model kneel down this is good was good for court at the time for them to they didn't have to worry about having to figure out a go to market and monetize right an upstream presence which was very valuable and then trying to shoehorn a business all around it and which is difficult companies died doing it yeah I mean I can't think of many that have been that successful at it I mean it's a hard thing to do I mean look we've had a great advantage you know we've had rail in the market for 16 years and it built a base for us I'm not gonna try to I'm not gonna try to kid you on that and it's the it's the Linux base that everything's getting built around and so we just keep those those principles we've used for the last 16 years we stay true to weak true to them we could not do a proprietary piece of software now if our lives depended on it that's the DNA well how do you handle the growth you get hiring new people - that's a challenge we've been we were talking to folks about on your team and across RedHat around hiring people and and you got to maintain that eco so you have to maintain that DNA way how do you guys do that what's the is there like a special three three day you know hypnotic class a you know this is how we do it I have to tell you it's a bit easier on the engineering side because you know it's typically engineers that have been working in the community etc but you know our business unit side and other pieces where people have been coming out of big companies and they're used to a hierarchical environment we really take that into account in the interview process I'll be frank not everyone makes it through I mean RedHat is you know titles really don't matter a ringlet company yeah totally engineering as all should be by the way if biased opinion fit okay so great to have you on thanks for spending the time I know you're super busy a couple questions before we wrap up what are you most proud of as you look back now I mean someone again it's almost hindsight's 2020 looks obvious these calls but you know I interviewed Diane at OpenStack many years ago took a lot of heat for that kubernetes movement people weren't it wasn't obvious to a lot of people at that time the kubernetes bet you guys make good bets looking back what are you most proud of that's most significant or or you think people should know well those were that was a seminal moment in redhead history that decision what take us through some of the key milestones in your opinion the for the first one there's probably three or four the first one was gonna Ralph because you have to understand what we did we were in we were a completely retail when I joined the company with 50 million dollars in revenue losing two hundred and so we had a retail product we stopped it to go to route literally literally stop the product bet the company move second one was JBoss we were about 300 million in revenue we paid 425 million for JBoss now that was a big one the third one you might not recognize this one moving from Xen to KVM because Xen was going off down the the VC world trying to figure out how to monetize as a company somebody in Israel came up with a with a better model with KVM the rest of the industry was on Zen we said as a single player we're going this way that was a big bet that I don't even know we recognized the significance of at the time and in kubernetes as I said we pivoted on that in 2012 or so and I've got a lot of R&D money in that and paying on what made you go to kubernetes just curious was the has the Borg success how software is being done at Google was it the role of containers did you guys have that foresight at that time saying containers gonna have a critical role we don't want to screw that up we can bring this in we're looking at from a stack perspective or was it more of a future scenario it was a lot of it was its its heritage out of Borg and knowing the talent in Google and engineering and we talked to we had we had many many discussions we all we continually do with those guys so I think it was mostly a technical decision and what we said was at that point putting our weight behind it we just need to make the community successful so I mean we quickly figure with us in Google it was a it was a fairly good bad not as sure bet but a good bet and that's what made us go there it was really it was really a technology decision possible final question as we wrap up for the folks watching who couldn't make it here in San Francisco for Red Hat summit 2018 what's the big takeaway what's the present technology what's the North Star for you and your team and what are you guys putting as a priority what's the focus I think I think the takeaway from here is you know I think it's I think it's a pretty solid couple things are really solid it's going to be the future is going to be open source period end of story especially in the infrastructure and application development world third thing is hybrid cloud is the model it's the only practical way not every application is moving to one public cloud tomorrow and the third thing is for Red Hat that's the architecture that we build around every day we guide what are what products we build what M&A we do everything we do is around that model and open if I see a centerpiece of all the piece without all that coming thank you for coming on president of Protestant technology at Red Hat I'm John ferry with John Moyer stay with us for more live covers our third day of three days of live coverage here out in the open like open source we're doing our share bringing you the content you right back with more after this short break you

from San Francisco it's the queue covering Red Hat summit 2018 brought to you by Red Hat hey welcome back everyone this is the cube live in San Francisco Moscone West for coverage of Red Hat summit 2018 I'm John for the co-host of the cube mykos this week as analyst John Schwarz the co-founder of tech reckoning advisory and Community Development firm our next guest is Craig pizzelles right senior vice president application platforms business and portfolio for Red Hat great to see you welcome back to the cube thank you very much John so big-time executive a company is doing well and you guys are growing adding more people every time being successful again an open source another generations upon us a standing on the shoulders of giants you guys have been a business model for Red Hat for many many years rel certainly successful container madness now mainstream kubernetes clear line of sight on what that's doing as an abstraction layer and standard de-facto standard around orchestration the really good tailwind for you guys and the industry absolutely absolutely congratulations and what's your take I mean obviously you got apps now you're good people gonna be building apps system working OpenStack what's what's going on right well there's a lot going on I mean we've we've been very consistent about our strategy and it's finally starting to pay off and come together and I think the mark is starting to realize that we have been talking about hybrid cloud before it was in vogue and you know well over five years ago and so all those pieces come together we've always talked about a story of there are multiple footprints whether it's physical vert traditional virtual private cloud and public cloud and then companies will want to and customers will want to do more than just the four footprints they want to do multi cloud as well so you know we've been very strong on the infrastructure side having Linux as the base and the operational consistency across those footprints in which to build on and then now containers and kubernetes with OpenShift gives us plus that that last leg together to give us that abstraction layer across these multiple footprints to allow hybrid to happen I wanna get your reaction this because we were talking on our intro package around the dynamic we're seeing in today's business landscape and technical landscape open source clearly the business model for software right check kubernetes provide some interoperability and cloud native growth for new applications cloud we're cloud native what are you gonna call it and then you've got legacy applications for the first time don't have to get thrown away to go to the new world you have the ability to containerize write pre-existing applications while bringing a new functionality new infrastructure new software methodologies development architectures modernizing software yeah while maintaining and preserving the life cycle of pre-existing applications great absolutely this is the dynamic that is really a wonderful thing because takes the pressure off absolutely and I think that's unique to Red Hat which is we've always had not only the hybrid cloud story the multi cloud story but the fact that containers allows you to advanced advanced a movement to you know do digital transformation start using micro services etc but you don't need to start over you can take existing applications you can containerize those applications get them into a cloud environment gain those efficiencies operational efficiencies and development efficiencies and then start to also build new applications based on microservices architectures and bring both together some of the other vendors out there may only have a story about well you have to rewrite everything it right or it's only going to be public cloud and you're tied to those public cloud api's I think you know using containers as a methodology and then using orchestration with kubernetes you can have the best of both worlds and we think that's important I wanted to drill down to the stack a little bit more right I think this year maybe even as opposed to last year the cube was that the OpenStack summit and there was a little bit of confused talk about you know containers you know what on what openshift on OpenStack or vice versa the message this this year very clear you know openshift on OpenStack here's the infrastructure don't get confused so we've got those two layers that you lay down but also there's a lot of application services in the Red Hat stack that you all have built out and I think if people were listening closely right there's a multi-year investment in there in things like you know that originated with an application server like JBoss that now actually in 2018 architectural II look very different now that's a set of services that developers can use so maybe I mean can you talk a little bit about I mean that's an example also I'm not throwing everything out but evolving can talk a little bit about the depth of the stack there and and servicing all those various requirements I mean if you look at the stack we're talking about infrastructure services some of those are in things like OpenStack so you know whether it's compute storage networking etc we demonstrated some ability in through kubernetes to provision and orchestrate VMs and so you saw some of that in the demos that we show today but then once you lay down that foundational layer with containers and kubernetes with openshift then we start to build services on top of that we have been building this portfolio of middleware services for some time and so we can provide messaging as a service we can provide integration and ipad services we have something now called Roar which is packaging together a runtime and frameworks to put together inside of OpenShift we have process management and orchestration technologies business process management so all those services are something that developers need and you start adding those now as cloud services and so the other one of the other things that we've also done beginning about two years ago we began a journey for automating the application lifecycle of building application the pipeline capability we did an acquisition of a company called codenvy which is the founders of eclipse CheY the cloud native ide and workspace environment and so now we've now begun shipping openshift i/o to give you that end-to-end capability from beginning your project to writing the code to doing CI CD and managing the full lifecycle so it's all starting to come together for us a big big talk here at the show about kubernetes being kind of dun dun gnu/linux right the new platform that's going to enable a huge amount of innovation but I love that openshift is more than kubernetes a and also that you know as part of this it's it's a it's you know the role of Linux was a bunch of device drivers right and you're and you're organizing on one machine the clap now that we're in cloud right kubernetes is is about operations like you just said about the code lifecycle about all this stuff and all of a sudden yes it yes it's a it's an analogy but but it's much broader than that it's much broader than that one analogy I mean you made the analogy about Linux I mean Linux basically abstracted a number of hardware architectures and gave you a common operating environment in which to run on x86 or even run on a mainframe or run on power now running on arm you know we have looked at and said well there's a similar analogy now having and taking place with containers in kubernetes where you can create an orchestration layer and an abstraction layer across multiple infrastructures and then building app dev services on top of that so that's what's coming together right now so you know we think it's important also to build out the ecosystem so we're providing application development services on top of this you know this abstraction layer we're building tooling and application lifecycle management but we're also bringing in partners so our announcements today with or yesterday with IBM and even Microsoft they're container izing sequel server they're putting it into our container catalog there will be a distribution of that the the the IBM products and the IBM middleware products and so we'd right now in our ecosystem development program we have about 60 is v's already certified already in a container catalog we grade them in terms of their security so you have some confidence we have another pipeline of another two hundred is BS coming in and then also our service broker so bringing in services we made announcements last year with with AWS to bring in some of their services like lambda and other services into the service broker so you see this hybrid world where you have a lot of different application development capabilities both from us and from our on the ecosystem and the service broker technology to help you bridge you know the best of breed services from all these multiple clouds okay I talked about the ecosystem evolution because you're creating an enabling technology capability and new new growth is coming we see that already kind of on the radar how is that gonna change the ecosystem makeup for you guys actually the the container catalog and ISPs what's it gonna look like is V is gonna be developer I mean what how do you guys envision the ecosystem evolving over the ecosystem it obviously is involved most of these you know most of the traditional the ISPs will begin to offer their own services you know they might be hosting them on AWS but they're gonna provide cloud services so they're gonna be exposing api's to use those services so I see that the evolution isn't there will be a lot of code that you still containerize and offer but there will be many services that are hosted somewhere else posted in a cloud hosting but you want to bring those services to bear I'm creating in an application maybe on Prem with openshift but I need to use a machine learning service from perhaps Google or from Watson and IBM so how do i and those are hosted services so how do I use those services even though my cloud native environment is inside inside the inside the firewall front I'm an integration or two critical pieces you guys got a layout across that right yeah yeah yes and so there's a distributed computer it sounds like an operating system out but it's spread all over the place it's spread all over the place your thoughts on your current portfolio how's it kind of all you talk about some of the services you're enabling within your own portfolio for your customers out there now rel very stable operationally everybody knows that how is the portfolio within Red Hat gonna continue to evolve at what's their vision there yeah so we are beginning to do more of you know integrating infrastructure services in from kubernetes so what you saw you know cnv containerized virtualization allows you to orchestrate VMS we've done the same thing with storage and storage virtualization you'll see more on the infrastructure side probably things like networking are next some of the API is within OpenStack but then up stack we're looking at other capabilities we do have a project going on right now with server list it's in tech preview it was demoed yesterday so you'll see a server list offering from us we have been experimenting with machine learning and AI and we're using it inside of our own capabilities like insights which is a management a hosted management tool but providing machine learning capabilities and offering those inside natively with inside of open ship these are all futures and part of the roadmap that we have going forward for application developers out there are potential partners of Red Hat what's the mandate in your mind to make kubernetes a first-class citizen so if I'm watching I want it I want a vector into this you know skate to where the puck is going kind of mindset what do I need to do what is an enterprise and a business or developer or startup right need to do two cunning connect into the growth is it a playbook do you see something involving that stick and maybe a clear line one of the things I mean from is just a technical basis if you if a partner has software well get a containerized figure out how that works in containers how many how do you structure that if a partner has a service then make that available through the service broker we will work with those partners to you know look at business models that might be appropriate in a cloud native environment that spans across cloud to help them market so those are some of the things I think you know a partner or an ecosystem provider would you should think about what's the feedback of the show here after the hallway conversations Dobbs a lot a lot of openshift conversations it's a centerpiece what are you hearing what are you seeing what's what's going on for you at the show here I think the breadth of what Red Hat has become I you know when we'd go to shows five six years ago we had you know started to build out the portfolio but you know people would still come to the show and you know it's the Linux show but it's no longer the Linux show it's it's a much bigger it's it's about computing open-source computing in the enterprise and cloud-based computing and so the breadth of the portfolio I think is a surprise for many people and how many things we do offer when you look at some of the customer testimonials and the demos we're showing everything from you know infrastructure and private cloud infrastructure out to very sophisticated application development use cases so I think that's a big difference than what you might have seen six broad you're broadening your portfolio from standalone Linux to include management applicate more applications this is a bigger market it's a much bigger market I think we you know we view our we we view our opportunity as becoming the computing platform both at an infrastructure level and helping the developers for the next you know for the next 50 years so hopefully right and it's a shift in the marketplace - and a shift in skill set of the people who are here right that's another thing that to be able to pull those two people into the future like yeah absolutely I mean the skill set used to be again you know a primary linux show a lot of linux systems administrators and and data center executives and data center managers and now you have a much more senior levels many c-suite people coming here to to understand how they transform their business how open-source can help how this broad hybrid cloud platform can help and then a large set of architects and developers so the mix is really interesting now it's not just the infrastructure and data center guys but it's the executives that make those decisions as well as the application develop you have more community members that are users inside the open source projects making things happen oh absolutely you guys now it helps everyone else oh I was just approached by a large bank this week and on openshift i/o which is this tool chain this pipeline capability now an open shift they want to participate they asked how do we get involved in the projects in the upstream projects we would like to build this out so that's just one example I think of and we get asked all the time about hey can you teach us how to be an open company how to be how does open source work how could we facilitate that in our culture to be a little bit more creative collaborative and move faster so I mean open source model is definitely real what are the customer feedback can you share because we're hearing the same thing the customers saying okay it's easier to recruit it's easier to just make everything open just from an operational standpoint right what are some of your top customers that have been with red head for a while what are they saying to you when they say wow this the benefits are are well well the benefits I think are are that they are much faster to market they can leverage skills and capabilities that may not be inherent in their own company beyond their walls they could you know get build ecosystems that have affinity to the to themselves all because they're just you know reaching out there they're participating in open source communities and trying to create a culture of open source and then you get better products out of a certain link wray thanks for coming on the cube and sharing your insights congratulations on all your success great to have you on we're here at the Red Hat summit 28 teens the cubes live covers stay with us for more work day two of three days of wall-to-wall coverage we'll be right back after this short break I'm John four with John Troy here stay with us

>> Announcer: From San Francisco, it's theCUBE. Covering Red Hat Summit 2018 brought to you by Red Hat. >> Hello everyone and welcome back to see CUBE's exclusive coverage of Red Hat Summit 2018 live in San Francisco, California at Moscone West. I'm John Furrier, your cohost of theCUBE with John Troyer co-founder of Tech Reckoning advisory and community development firm. Our next two guests Mike Piech Vice President and General Manager of middleware at Red Hat and Mark Little, Vice President of Software Engineering for middleware at Red Hat. This is the stack wars right here. Guys thanks for coming back, good to see you guys again. >> Great to see you too. >> So we love Middleware because Dave Vellante and I and Stu always talk about like the real value is going to be created in abstraction layers. You're seeing examples of that all over the place but Kubernetes containers, multi-cloud conversations. Workload management and all these things are happening at these really cool abstraction layers. That's obviously you say global I say middleware but you know it's where the action is. So I got to ask you, super cool that you guys have been leading in there but the new stuff's happening. So let's just go review last year or was it this year? What's different this year, new things happening within the company? We see core OS' in there, you guys got OpenShift is humming along beautifully. What's new in the middleware group? >> There's a few things. I'll take one and then maybe Mike can think of another while I'm speaking but when we were here this time last year we were talking about functions as a service or server-less and we had a project of our own called Funktion with a K, between then and now the developer affinity around functions as a service has just grown. Lots of people are now using it and starting to use it in production. We did a review of what we were doing back then and looked around at other efforts that were in the market space and we decided actually we wanted to get involved with a large community of developers and try and move that in a direction that was pretty beneficial for everybody but clearly for ourselves. And we've decided, and we announced this publicly last year but we're now involved with a project called Apache OpenWhisk instead of Funktion. And OpenWhisk is a project that IBM originally kicked off. We got involved, it was tied very closely to cloud foundering so one of the first things that we've been doing is making it more Kubernetes native and allowing it to run on OpenShift. In fact we're making some announcements this week around our functions are service based on Apache OpenWhisk. But that's probably one of the bigger things that's changed in the last 12 months. >> I would just add to that that across the rest of the middleware portfolio which is as you know, a wide range of different technologies, different products, in our integration area we continue to push ahead with containerizing, putting the integration technologies in the containers, making it easier to basically connect the different components of applications and different applications to each other together through different integration paradigms whether it's messaging or more of a bus style. So with our Jboss Fuse and our AMQ we've made great progress in continuing to refine how those are invoked and consumed in the Openshift environment. Forthcoming very shortly, literally in the next week or two is our integration platform as a service based on the Fuse and AMQ technologies. In addition we've continued to charge ahead with our API management solution based on the technology we acquired from Threescale a couple of years ago. So that is coming along nicely, being very well adopted by our customers. Then further up the stack on the process automation front, so some of the business process management types of technologies we've continued to push ahead with containerizing and that was being higher up the stack and a little bit bigger a scale of technology was a little bit more complex in really setting it up for the containerized world but we've got our Process Automation 7.0 release coming out in the next few weeks. That includes some exciting new technology around case management, so really bringing all of those traditional middleware capabilities forward into the Cloud Native, containerized environment has been I would say the most significant focus of our efforts over the last year. >> Go ahead. >> Can you contextualize some of that a little bit for us? The OpenShift obviously a big topic of conversation here. You know the new thing that everyone's looking at and Kubernetes, but these service layers, these layers it takes to build an app still necessary, Jboss a piece of this stack is 17, 18 years old, right? So can you contextualize it a little bit for people thinking about okay we've got OpenStack on the bottom, we've got OpenShift, where does the middleware and the business process, how has that had to be modernized? And how are people, the Java developers, still fitting into the equation? >> Mark: So a lot of that contextualization can actually, if we go back about four or five years, we announced an initiative called Xpass which was to essentially take the rich middleware suite of products and capabilities we had, and decompose them into independently consumable services kind of like what you see when you look at AWS. They've got the simple queuing service, simple messaging service. We have those capabilities but in the past they were bundled together in an app server, so we worked to pull them apart and allow people to use them independently so if you wanted transactions, or you wanted security, you didn't have to consume the whole app server you actually had these as independent services, so that was Xpass. We've continued on that road for the past few years and a lot of those services are now available as part and parcel of OpenShift. To get to the developer side of things, then we put language veneers on top of those because we're a Java company, well at least middleware is, but there's a lot more than Java out there. There's a lot of people who like to use Pearl or PHP or JavaScript or Go, so we can provide language specific clients for them to interact. At the end of the day, your JavaScript developer who's using bulletproof, high performing messaging doesn't need to know that most of it is implemented in Java. It's just a complete opaque box to them in a way. >> John F: So this is a trend of microservices, this granularity concept of this decomposition, things that you guys are doing is to line up with what people want, work with services directly. >> Absolutely right, to give developers the entire spectrum of granularity. So they can basically architect at a granularity that's appropriate for the given part of their job they're working on it's not a one size fits all proposition. It's not like throw all the monoliths out and decompose every last workload into it's finest grain possible pieces. There's a time and a place for ultra-fine granularity and there's also a time and a place to group things together and with the way that we're providing our runtimes and the reference architectures and the general design paradigm that we're sort of curating and recommending for our customers, it really is all about, not just the right tool for the job but the right granularity for the job. >> It's really choice too, I mean people can choose and then based on their architecture they can manage it the way they want from a design standpoint. Alright I got to get your guys' opinion on something. Certainly we had a great week in Copenhagen last week, in Denmark, around CUBECon, Kubernetes conference, Cloud NativeCon, whatever it's called, they're called two things. There was a rallying cry around Kubernetes and really the community felt like that Linix moment or that TCPIP moment where people talk about standards but like when will we just do something? We got to get behind it and then differentiate and provide all kinds of coolness around it. Core defacto stand with Kubernetes is opening up all kinds of new creative license for developers, it's also bringing up an accelerated growth. Istio's right around the corner, Cubeflow have the cool stuff on how software's being built. >> Right. >> So very cool rallying cry. What is the rallying cry in middleware, in your world? Is there a similar impact going on and what is that? >> Yeah >> Because you guys are certainly affected by this, this is how software will be built. It's going to be orchestrated, composed, granularity options, all kinds of microservices, what's the rallying cry in the middleware? >> So I think the rallying cry, two years ago, at Summit we announced something called MicroProfile with IBM, with Tomitribe, another apps vendor, Piara and a few quite large Java user groups to try and do something innovative and microservices specific with Enterprise Java. It was incredibly successful but the big elephant in the room who wasn't involved in that was Oracle, who at the time was still controlling Java E and a lot of what we do is dependent on Java E, a lot of what other vendors who don't necessarily talk about it do is also dependent on Java E to one degree or another. Even Pivotal with Springboot requires a lot of core services like messaging and transactions that are defined in Java E. So two years further forward where we are today, we've been working with IBM and Oracle and others and we've actually moved, or in process of moving all of Java E away from the old process, away from a single vendor's control into the Eclipse Foundation and although that's going to take us a little while longer to do we've been on that path for about four or five months. The amount of buzz and interest in the community and from companies big and small who would never have got involved in Java E in the past is immense. We're seeing new people get involved with Eclipse Foundation, and new companies get involved with Eclipse Foundation on a daily basis so that they can get in there and start to innovate in Enterprise Java in a much more agile and interesting way than they could have done in the past. I think that's kind of our rallying call because like I said we're getting lots of vendors, Pivotal's involved, Fujitsu. >> John F: And the impact of this is going to be what? >> A lot more innovation, a lot quicker innovation and it's not going to be at the slow speed of standards it's going to be at the fast, upstream, open source innovative speed that we see in likes of Kubernetes. >> And Eclipse has got a good reputation as well. >> Yeah, the other significant thing here, in addition to the faster innovation is it's a way forward for all of that existing Java expertise, it's a way for some of the patterns and some of the knowledge that they have already to be applied in this new world of Cloud Native. So you're not throwing out all that and having to essentially retrain double digit millions of developers around the world. >> John F: It's instant developer actually and plus Java's a great language, it's the bulldozer of languages, it can move a lot, it does a lot of heavy lifting >> Yep. >> And there's a lot of developers out there. Okay, final question I know you guys got to go, thanks for spending the time on theCUBE, really appreciate certainly very relevant, middleware is key to the all the action. Lot of glue going on in that layers. What's going on at the show here for you guys? What's hot, what should people pay attention to? What should they look for? >> Mark: I'll give my take, what's hot is any talk to do with middleware >> (laughs) Biased. >> But kind of seriously we do have a lot of good stuff going on with messaging and Kafka. Kafka's really hot at the moment. We've just released our own project which is eventually going to become a product called Strimsy, integrated with OpenShift so it's coognative from the get-go, it's available now. We're integrating that with OpenWhisk, which we talked about earlier, and also with our own reactive async platform called Vertex, so there's a number of sessions on that and if I get a chance I'm hoping to say into one >> John F: So real quick though I mean streaming is important because you talk about granularity, people are going to start streaming services with service measures right around the corner, the notion of streaming asynchronously is going to be a huge deal >> Absolutely, absolutely. >> Mark: And tapping into that stream at any point in time and then pulling the plug and then doing the work based on that. >> Also real quick, Kubernetes, obviously the momentum is phenomenal in Cloud Native but becoming a first class citizen in the enterprise, still some work to do. Thoughts on that real quick? Would you say Kubernetes's Native, is it coming faster? Will it ever be, certainly I think it will be but. >> I think this is the year of Kubernetes and of enterprise Kubernetes. >> Mike: I mean you just look at the phenomenal growth of OpenShift and that in a way speaks directly to this point >> Mike, what's hot, what's hot? What are you doing at the show, what should we look at? I'd add to, I certainly would echo the points Mark made and in addition to that I would take a look at any session here on API management. Again within middleware the three-scale technology we acquired is still going gangbusters, the customers are loving that, finding it extremely helpful as they start to navigate the complexity of doing essentially distributive computing using containers and microservices, getting more disciplined about API management is of huge relevance in that world, so that would be the next thing I'd add. >> Congratulations guys, finally the operating system called the Cloud is taking over the world. It's basically distributed computer all connected together, it sounds like >> All that stuff we learned in the eighties right (laughs) >> It's a systems world, the middleware is changing the game, modern software construction of Apple cases all being done in a new way, looking at orchestration, server lists, service meshes all happening in real time, guys congratulations on the all the work and Red Hats. Be keeping it in the open, Java E coming around the corner as well, it's theCUBE bringing it out in the open here in San Francisco, I'm John Furrier with John Troyer we'll be back with more live coverage after this short break

>> Narrator: Live from San Francisco. It's theCUBE! Covering RedHat Summit 2018. Brought to you by Red Hat. >> Alright welcome back, this is theCUBE's exclusive coverage of Red Hat 2018. I'm John Furrier, the co host of theCUBE with John Troyer, co-founder of TechReckoning Advisory Firm. Next guest is Chris Wright, Vice President and CTO Chief of Technology of his Red Hat. Great to see you again, thanks for joining us today. >> Yeah, great to be here. >> Day one of three days of CUBE coverage, you got, yesterday had sessions over there in Moscone South, yet in classic Red Hat fashion, good vibes, things are rocking. Red Hat's got a spring to their step, making some good calls technically. >> Chris: That's right. >> Kubernetes' one notable, Core OS Acquisition, really interesting range, this gives, I mean I think people are now connecting the dots from the tech side, but also now on the business side, saying "Okay we can see now some, a wider market opportunity for Red Hat". Not just doing it's business with Linux, software, you're talking about a changing modern software architecture, for application developers. I mean, this is a beautiful thing, I mean. >> Chris: It's not just apps but it's the operator, you know, operation side as well, so we've been at it for a long time. We've been doing something that's really similar for quite some time, which is building a platform for applications, independent from the underlying infrastructure, in the Linux days I was X86 hardware, you know, you get this HeteroGenius hardware underneath, and you get a consistent standardized application run time environment on top of Linux. Kubernetes is helping us do that at a distributive level. And it's taken some time for the industry to kind of understand what's going on, and we've been talking about hybrid cloud for years and, you really see it real and happening and it's in action and for us that distributed layer round Kubernetes which just lights up how do you manage distributed applications across complex infrastructure, makes it really real. >> Yeah it's also timing's everything too right? I mean, good timing, that helps, the evolution of the business, you always have these moments and these big waves where you can kind of see clunking going on, people banging against each other and you know, the glue layers developing, and then all of a sudden snaps into place, and then it just scales, right? So you're starting to see that, we've seen this in other ways, TCPIP, Linux itself, and you guys are certainly making that comparison, being Red Hat, but what happens next is usually an amazing growth phase. Again, small little, and move the ball down the field, and then boom, it opens up. As a CTO, you have to look at that 20 mile stair now, what's next? What's that wave coming that you're looking at in the team that you have on Red Hat's side and across your partners? What's the wave next? >> Well there's a lot of activity going on that's beyond what we're building today. And so much of it, first of all, is happening in Open Source. So that itself is awesome. Like we're totally tuned into these environments, it's core to who we are, it's our DNA to be involved in these Open Source communities, and you look across all of the different projects and things like machine learning and blockchain, which are really kind of native Open Source developments, become really relevant in ways that we can change how we build functionality and build business, and build business value in the future. So, those are the things that we look at, what's emerging out of the Open Source communities, what's going to help continue to accelerate developers' ability to quickly build applications? Operations team's ability to really give that broad scale, policy level view of what's going on inside your infrastructure to support those applications, and all the data that we're gathering and needing to sift through and build value from inside the applications, that's very much where we're going. >> Well I think we had a really good example of machine learning used in an everyday enterprise application this morning, they kicked off the keynote, talking about optimizing the schedule and what sessions were in what rooms, you know, using an AI tool right? >> Chris: That's right. >> And so, that's reality as you look at, is that going to be the new reality as you're looking into the future of building in these kind of machine learning opportunities into everyday business applications that, you know, in the yesteryear would've been just some, I don't know, visual basic, or whatever, depending on how far back you look, right? You know, is that really going to be a reality in the enterprise? It seems so. >> It is, absolutely. And so what we're trying to do is build the right platforms, and build the right tools, and then interfaces to those platforms and tools to make it easier and easier for developers to build, you know, what we've been calling "Intelligent Apps", or applications that take advantage of the data, and the insights associated with that data, right in the application. So, the scheduling optimization that you saw this morning in the keynote is a great example of that. Starting with basic rules engine, and augmenting that with machine learning intelligence is one example, and we'll see more and more of that as the sophisticated tools that are coming out of Open Source communities building machine learning platforms, start to specialize and make it easier and easier to do specific machine learning tasks within an application. So you don't have to be a data scientist and an app developer all in one, you know, that's, there's different roles and different responsibilities, and how do we build, develop, life cycle managed models is one question, and how do we take advantage of those models and applications is another question, and we're really looking at that from a Red Hat perspective. >> John F: And the enterprises are always challenged, they always (mumbles), Cloud Native speaks to both now, right? So you got hybrid cloud and now multi-cloud on the horizon, set perfectly up with Open Shift's kind of position in that, kind of the linchpin, but you got, they're still two different worlds. You got the cloud-native born in the cloud, and that's pretty much a restart-up these days, and then you've got legacy apps with container, so the question is, that people are asking is, okay, I get the cloud-native, I see the benefits, I know what the investment is, let's do it upfront, benefits are horizontally scalable, asynchronous, et cetera et cetera, but I got legacy. I want to do micro-servicing, I want to do server-less, do I re-engineer that or just containers, what's the technical view and recommendation from Red Hat when you say, when the CIO says or enterprise says, "Hey I want to go cloud native for over here and new staff, but I got all this old staff, what do I do?". Do I invest more region, or just containerize it, what's the play? >> I think you got to ask kind of always why? Why you're doing something. So, we hear a lot, "Can I containerize it?", often the answer is yes. A different question might be, "What's the value?", and so, a containerized application, whether it's an older application that's stateful or whether it's a newer cloud-native application (mumbles), horizontally scalable, and all the great things, there's value potentially in just the automation around the API's that allow you to lifecycle manage the application. So if the application itself is still continuing to change, we have some great examples with some of our customers, like Keybank, doing what we call the "Fast moving monolith". So it's still a traditional application, but it's containerized and then you build a CICD model around it, and you have automation on how you deliver and deploy production. There's value there, there's also value in your existing system, and maybe building some different services around the legacy system to give you access, API access, to data in that system. So different ways to approach that problem, I don't think there's a one size fits all. >> So Chris, some of this is also a cultural and a process shift. I was impressed this morning, we've already talked with two Red Hat customers, Macquarie and Amadeus, and you know Macquarie was talking about, "Oh yeah we moved 40 applications in a year, you know, onto Open Shift", and it turns out they were already started to be containerized and dockerized and, oh yeah yeah you know, that is standard operating procedure, for that set of companies. There's a long tail of folks who are still dealing with the rest of the stuff we've had to deal, the stack we've had to deal with for years. How is Red Hat, how are you looking at this kind of cultural shift? It's nice that it's real, right? It's not like we're talking about microservices, or some sort of future, you know, Jettison sort of thing, that's going to save us all, it's here today and they're doing it. You know, how are you helping companies get there? >> So we have a practice that we put in place that we call the "Open Innovation Lab". And it's very much an immersive practice to help our customers first get experience building one of these cloud native applications. So we start with a business problem, what are you trying to solve? We take that through a workshop, which is a multi-week workshop, really to build on top of a platform like Open Shift, real code that's really useful for that business, and those engineers that go through that process can then go back to their company and be kind of the change agent for how do we build the internal cultural shift and the appreciation for Agile development methodologies across our organization, starting with some of this practical, tangible and realist. That's one great example of how we can help, and I think part of it is just helping customers understand it isn't just technology, I'm a technologist so there's part of me that feels pain to say that but the practical reality is there's whole organizational shifts, there's mindset and cultural changes that need to happen inside the organization to take advantage of the technology that we put in place to build that optimize. >> John F: And roles are changing too, I'll see the system admin kind of administrative things getting automated way through more operating role. I heard some things last week at CubeCon in Copenhagen, Denmark, and I want to share some quotes and I want to get your reaction. >> Alright. >> This is the hallway, I won't attribute the names but, these were quotes, I need, quote, "I need to get away from VP Engine firewalls. I need user and application layer security with unfishable access, otherwise I'm never safe". Second quote, "Don't confuse lift and shift with running cloud-native global platform. Lot of actors in this system already running seamlessly. Versus say a VM Ware running environment wherein V Center running in a data center is an example of a lift and shift". So the comments are one for (mumbles) cloud, you need to have some sort of security model, and then two, you know we did digital transformation before with VM's, that was a different world, but the new world's not a lift and shift, it's re-architect of a cloud-native global platform. Your reaction to those two things, and what that means to customers as they think about what they're going to look like, as they build that bridge to the future. >> Security peace is critical, so every CIO that we're talking to, it's top of mind, nobody wants to be on the front page of The Wall Street Journal for the wrong reasons. And so understanding, as you build a micro-services software architected application, the components themselves are exposed to services, those services are API's that become potentially part of the attack surface. Thinking of it in terms of VPN's and firewalls, is the kind of traditional way that we manage security at the edge. Hardened at the edge, soft in the middle isn't an acceptable way to build a security policy around applications that are internally exposing parts of their API's to other parts of the application. So, looking at it for me, application use case perspective, which portions of the application need to be able to talk to one another, and it's part of why somebody like Histio are so exciting, because it builds right in to the platform, the notion of mutual authentication between services. So that you know you're talking to a service that you're allowed to talk to. Encryption associated with that, so that you get another level of security for data and motion, and all of that is not looking at what is the VPN or what is the VLAN tag, or what is the encapsulation ID, and thinking layer two, layer three security, it's really application layer, and thinking in terms of that policy, which pieces of the application have to talk to each other, and nobody else can talk to that service unless it's, you know, understood that that's an important part for how the application works. So I think, really agree, and you could even say DevSecOps to me is something that I've come around to. Initially I thought it was a bogus term and I see the value in considering security at every step of build, test and deliver an application. Lift and shift, totally different topic. What does it mean to lift and shift? And I think there's still, some people want to say there's no value in lift and shift, and I don't fully agree, I think there's still value in moving, and modernizing the platform without changing the application, but ultimately the real value does come in re-architecting, and so there's that balance. What can you optimize by moving? And where does that free up resources to invest in that real next generation application re-architecting? >> So Chris, you've talked about machine learning, right? Huge amounts of data, you've just talked about security, we've talked about multi-cloud, to me that says we might have an issue in the future with the data layer. How are people thinking about the data layer, where it lives, on prem, in the cloud, think about GDPR compliance, you know, all that sort of good stuff. You know, how are you and Red Hat, how are you asking people to think about that? >> So, data management is a big question. We build storage tooling, we understand how to put the bytes on disc, and persist, and maintain the storage, it's a different question what are the data services, and what is the data governance, or policy around placement, and I think it's a really interesting part of the ecosystem today. We've been working with some research partners in the Massachusetts Open Cloud and Boston University on a project called "Cloud Dataverse", and it has a whole policy question around data. 'Cause there, scientists want to share data sets, but you have to control and understand who you're sharing your data sets with. So, it's definitely a space that we are interested in, understand, that there's a lot of work to be done there, and GDPR just kind of shines a light right on it and says policy and governance around where data is placed is actually fundamental and important, and I think it's an important part, because you've seen some of the data issues recently in the news, and you know, we got to get a handle on where data goes, and ultimately, I'd love to see a place where I'm in control of how my data is shared with the rest of the world. >> John F: Yeah, certainly the trend. So a final question for you, Open Source absolutely greatness going on, more and more good things are happening in projects, and bigger than ever before, I mean machine learning's a great example, seeing not just code snippets, code bases being you know, TensorFlow jumps out at me (mumbles), what are you doing here this year that's new and different from an Open Source standpoint, but also from a Red Hat standpoint that's notable that people should pay attention to? >> Well, one of the things that we're focused on is that platform layer, how do we enable a machine learning workload to run well on our platform? So it starts actually at the very bottom of the stack, hardware enablement. You got to get GPUs functional, you got to get them accessible to virtual machine based applications, and container based applications, so that's kind of table stakes. Accelerate a machine learning workload to make it usable, and valuable, to an enterprise by reducing the training and interference times for a machine learning model. Some of the next questions are how do we embed that technology in our own products? So you saw Access Insights this morning, talking about how we take machine learning, look at all of the data that we're gathering from the systems that our customers are deploying, and then derive insights from those and then feed those back to our customers so they can optimize the infrastructure that they're building and running and maintaining, and then, you know, the next step is that intelligent application. How do we get that machine learning capability into the hands of the developer, and pair the data scientist with the developers so you build these intelligent applications, taking advantage of all the data that you're gathering as an enterprise, and turning that into value as part of your application development cycle. So those are the areas that we're focused on for machine learning, and you know, some of that is partnering, you know, talking through how do we connect some of these services from Open Shift to the cloud service providers that are building some of these great machine learning tools, so. >> Any new updates on (mumbles) the success of Red Hat just in the past two years? You see the growth, that correlates, that was your (mumbles) Open Shift, and a good calls there, positioned perfectly, analysts, financial analysts are really giving you guys a lot of props on Wall Street, about the potential revenue growth opportunities on the business side, what's it like now at Red Hat? I mean, do you look back and say, "Hey, it was only like three years ago we did this", and I mean, the vibes are good, I mean share some inside commentary on what's happening inside Red Hat. >> It's really exciting. I mean, we've been working on these things for a long time. And, the simplest example I have is the combination of tools like the JBoss Middleware Suite and Linux, well they could run well together and we have a lot of customers that combine those, but when you take it to the next step, and you build containerized services and you distribute those broadly, you got a container platform, you got middleware components, you know, even providing functionality as services, you see how it all comes together and that's just so exciting internally. And at the same time we're growing. And a big part of-- >> John F: Customers are using it. >> Customers are using it, so putting things into production is critical. It's not just exciting technology but it's in production. The other piece is we're growing, and as we grow, we have to maintain the core of who we are. There's some humility that's involved, there's some really core Open Source principles that are involved, and making sure that as we continue to grow, we don't lose sight of who we are, really important thing for our internal culture, so. >> John F: Great community driven, and great job. Chris, thanks for coming on theCUBE, appreciate it. Chris Wright, CTO of Red Hat, sharing his insights here on theCUBE. Of course, bringing you all a live action as always here in San Francisco in Moscone West, for Red Hat Summit 2018, we'll be right back. (electronic music) (intense music)

>> Announcer: Live, from Copenhagen, Denmark, it's theCUBE. Covering KubeCon and CloudNativeCon Europe 2018. Brought to you by the Cloud Native Computing Foundation and its Ecosystem Partners. >> Well everyone, welcome back to the live coverage of theCUBE here in Copenhagen, Denmark for KubeCon, Kubernetes Con 2018, part of the CNCF, Cloud Native Compute Foundation, part of the Linux Foundation. I'm John Furrier with Lauren Cooney, the founder of Spark Labs, breaking down day two, wrapping up our coverage of KubeCon and all the success that we've seen with Kubernetes, I thought it would be really appropriate to bring on the cofounder of KubeCon originally, Joseph Jacks, known as JJ in the industry, a good friend of theCUBE and part of the early formation of what is now Cloud Native. We were all riffing on that at the time. welcome back to theCUBE, great to see you. >> Thank you for having me John. >> So, for the story, for the folks out there, you know Cloud Native was really seen by the devops community, and infrastructure code was no secret to the insiders in the timeframes from 2010 through 2015, 16 timeframe, but really it was an open stack summit. A lot of people were kind of like, hey, you know, Google's got Kubernetes, they're going to open it up and this could be a real game changer, container, Docker was flying off the shelves. So we just kind of saw, right, and you were there and we were talking so there was a group of us. You were one of them. And you founded KubeCon, and bolted into the, at that time, the satellite Linux Foundation events, and then you pass it off as a good community citizen to the CNCF, so I wanted to just make sure that people knew that. What a great success. What's your impression? I mean, are you blown away? >> I am definitely blown away. I mean I think the size and scale of the European audience is remarkable. We had something like slightly less than half this in Austin last year. So to see more than that come here in Europe I think shows the global kind of growth curve as well as like, I think, Dan and someone else was asking sort of raise your hand if you've been to Kubecon Austin and very few actually, so there's a lot of new people showing up in Europe. I think it just shows the demand-- >> And Dan's been traveling around. I've seen him in China, some events I've been to. >> Joseph: All over. >> He's really working hard so props to him. We gave him some great props earlier. But he also told us Shanghai is coming online. >> Joseph: Yeah. >> So you got Shanghai, you to Barcelona next year for the European show, and of course Seattle. This is a community celebrating right now because there's a lot of high fives going on right now because there's a lot of cool, we've got some sort of core standard, defacto standard, now let's go to work. What are you working on now? You got a stealth startup? Share a little bit about it. I know you don't want to give the details out, but where is it kind of above the stack? Where you going to be playing? >> Sure, so we're not talking too much in terms of specifics and we're pretty stealthy, but I can tell you what I'm personally very excited about in terms of where Kubernetes is going and kind of where this ecosystem is starting to mature for practitioners, for enterprises. So one of the things that I think Kubernetes is starting to bring to bear is this idea of commoditizing distributed systems for everyday developers, for everyday enterprises. And I think that that is sort of the first time in sort of maybe, maybe the history of software development, software engineering and building applications, we're standardizing on a set of primitives, a set of building blocks for distributed system style programming. You know we had in previous eras things like Erlang and fault tolerant programming and frameworks, but those were sort of like pocketed into different programming communities and different types of stacks. I think Kubernetes is the one sort of horizontal technology that the industry's adopting and it's giving us these amazing properties, so I think some of the things that we're focusing on or excited about involve sort of the programming layer on top of Kubernetes in simplifying the experience of kind of bringing all stateful and enterprise workloads and different types of application paradigms natively into Kubernetes without requiring a developer to really understand and learn the Kubernetes primitives themselves. >> That's next level infrastructure as code. Yeah so as Kubernetes becomes more successful, as Kubernetes succeeds at a larger and larger scale, people simply shouldn't have to know or understand the internals. There's a lot of people, I think Kelsey and a few other people, started to talk about Kubernetes as the Linux kernel of distributed computing or distributed systems, and I think that's a really great way of looking at it. You know, do programmers make file system calls directly when they're building their applications? Do they script directly against the kernel for maybe some very high performance things. But generally speaking when you're writing a service or you're writing a microservice or some business logic, you're writing at a higher level of abstraction and a language that's doing some IO and maybe some reading and writing files, but you're using higher level abstractions. So I think by the same token, the focus today with Kubernetes is people are learning this API. I think over time people are going to be programming against that API at a higher level. And what are you doing here, the show? Obviously you're (mumbles) so you're doing some (mumbles) intelligence. Conversations you've been in, can you share your opinion of what's going on here? Your thoughts on the content program, the architecture, the decisions they've made. >> I think we've just, so lots of questions in there. What am I doing here? I just get so energized and I'm so, I just get reinvigorated kind of being here and talking to people and it's just super cool to see a lot of old faces, people who've been here for a while, and you know, one of the things that excites me, and this is just like proof that the event's gotten so huge. I walk around and I see a lot of familiar faces, but more than 80, 90% of people I've never seen before, and I'm like wow this has like gotten really super huge mainstream. Talking with some customers, getting a good sense of kind of what's going on. I think we've seen two really huge kind of trends come out of the event. One is this idea of multicloud sort of as a focus area, and you've talked with Bassam at Upbound and the sort of multicloud control plane, kind of need and demand out there in the community and the user base. I think what Bassam's doing is extremely exciting. The other, so multicloud is a really big paradigm that most companies are sort of prioritizing. Kubernetes is available now on all the cloud providers, but how do we actually adopt it in a way that is agnostic to any cloud provider service. That's one really big trend. The second big thing that I think we're starting to see, just kind of across a lot of talks is taking the Kubernetes API and extending it and wrapping it around stateful applications and stateful workloads, and being able to sort of program that API. And so we saw the announcement from Red Hat on the operator framework. We've seen projects like Kube Builder and other things that are really about sort of building native custom Kubernetes APIs for your applications. So extensibility, using the Kubernetes API as a building block, and then multicloud. I think those are really two huge trends happening here. >> What is your view on, I'm actually going to put you on test here. So Red Hat made a bet on Kubernetes years ago when it was not obvious to a lot of the other big wales. >> Joseph: From the very beginning really. >> Yeah from the very beginning. And that paid off huge for Red Hat as an example. So the question is, what bets should people be making if you had to lay down some thought leadership on this here, 'cause you obviously are in the middle of it and been part of the beginning. There's some bets to be made. What are the bets that the IBMs and the HPs and the Cisco's and the big players have to make and what are the bets the startups have to make? >> Well yeah, there's two angles to that. I mean, I think the investment startups are making, are different set of investments and motivated differently than the multinational, huge, you know, technology companies that have billions of dollars. I think in the startup category, startups just should really embrace Kubernetes for speeding the way they build reliable and scalable applications. I think really from the very beginning Kubernetes is becoming kind of compelling and reasonable even at a very small scale, like for two or three node environment. It's becoming very easy to run and install and manage. Of course it gives you a lot of really great properties in terms of actually running, building your systems, adopting microservices, and scaling out your application. And that's what's sort of like a direct end user use case, startups, kind of building their business, building their stack on Kubernetes. We see companies building products on top of Kubernetes. You see a lot of them here on the expo floor. That's a different type of vendor startup ecosystem. I think there's lots of opportunities there. For the big multinationals, I think one really interesting thing that hasn't really quite been done yet, is sort of treating Kubernetes as a first-class citizen as opposed to a way to commercialize and enter a new market. I think one of the default ways large technology companies tend to look at something hypergrowth like Kubernetes and TensorFlow and other projects is wrapping around it and commercializing in some way, and I think a deeper more strategic path for large companies could be to really embed Kubernetes in the core kind of crown jewel IP assets that they have. So I'll give you an example, like, for let's just take SAP, I'll just pick on SAP randomly, for no reason. This is one of the largest enterprise software companies in the world. I would encourage the co-CEOs of SAP, for example. >> John: There's only one CEO now. >> Is there one CEO now? Okay. >> John: Snabe left. It's now (drowned out by talking). >> Oh, okay, gotcha. I haven't been keeping up on the SAP... But let's just say, you know, a CEO boardroom level discussion of replatforming the entire enterprise application stack on something like Kubernetes could deliver a ton of really core meaningful benefits to their business. And I don't think like deep super strategic investments like that at that level are being made quite yet. I think at a certain point in time in the future they'll probably start to be made that way. But that's how I would like look at smart investments on the bigger scale. >> We're not seeing scale yet with Kubernetes, just the toe is in the water. >> I think we're starting to see scale, John. I think we are. >> John: What's the scale number in clusters? >> I'll give you the best example, which came up today, and actually really surprised me which I think was a super compelling example. The largest retailer in China, so essentially the Amazon of China, JD.com, is running in production for years now at 20,000 compute nodes with Kubernetes, and their largest cluster is a 5,000 node cluster. And so this is pushing the boundary of the sort of production-- >> And I think that may be the biggest one I've heard. >> Yeah, that's certainly, I mean for a disclosed user that's pretty huge. We're starting to see people actually talk publicly about this which is remarkable. And there are huge deployments out there. >> We saw Tyler Jewell come on from WSO2. He's got a new thing called Ballerina. New programming language, have you seen that? >> Joseph: I have, I have. >> Thoughts on that? What's your thoughts on that? >> You know, I think that, so I won't make any particular specific comments on Ballerina, I'm not extremely informed on it. I did play with a little bit, I don't want to give any of my opinions, but what I'd say, and I think Tyler actually mentioned this, one of the things that I believe is going to be a big deal in the coming years, is so, trying to think of Kubernetes as an implementation detail, as the kernel, do you interact directly with that? Do you learn that interface directly? Are you sort of kind of optimizing your application to be sort of natively aware of those abstractions? I think the answer to all of those questions is no, and Kubernetes is sort of delegated as a compiler target, and so frankly like directionally speaking, I think what Ballerina's sort of design is aspiring towards is the right one. Compile time abstraction for building distributed systems is probably the next logical progression. I like to think of, and I think Brendan Burns has started to talk about this over the last year or two. Everyone's writing assembly code 'cause we're swimming yaml and configuration based designs and systems. You know, sort of pseudodeclarative, but more imperative in static configurations. When in reality we shouldn't be writing these assembly artifacts. We should be delegating all of this complexity to a compiler in the same way that you know, we went from assembly to C to higher level languages. So I think over time that starts to make a lot of sense, and we're going to see a lot of innovation here probably. >> What's your take on the community formation? Obviously, it's growing, so, any observations, any insight for the folks watching what's happening in the community, patterns, trends you'd see, like, don't like. >> I think we could do a better job of reducing politics amongst the really sort of senior community leaders, particularly who have incentives behind their sort of agendas and sort of opinions, since they work for various, you know, large and small companies. >> Yeah, who horse in this race. >> Sure, and there's, whether they're perverse incentives or not, I think net the project has such a high quality genuine, like humble, focused group of people leading it that there isn't much pollution and negativity there. But I think there could be a higher standard in some cases. Since the project is so huge and there are so many very fast moving areas of evolution, there tends to be sort of a fast curve toward many cooks being in the kitchen, you know, when new things materialize and I think that could be better handled. But positive side, I think like the project is becoming incredibly diverse. I just get super excited to see Aparna from Google leading the project at Google, both on the hosted Saas offering and the Kubernetes project. People like Liz and others. And I just think it's an awesome, welcoming, super diverse community. And people should really highlight that more. 'Cause I think it's a unique asset of the project. >> Well you're involved in some deep history. I think we're going to be looking this as moment where there was once a KubeCon that was not part of the CNCF, and you know, you did the right thing, did a good thing. You could have kept it to yourself and made some good cash. >> It's definitely gotten really big, and it's way beyond me now at this point. >> Those guys did a good job with CNCF. >> They're doing phenomenal. I think vast majority of the credit, at this scale, goes to Chris Anasik and Dan Conn, and the events team at the Linux Foundation, CNCF, and obviously Kelsey and Liz and Michelle Noorali and many others. But blood, sweat, and tears. It's no small feat pulling off an event like this. You know, corralling the CFP process, coordinating speakers, setting the themes, it's a really huge job. >> And now they got to deal with all the community, licenses, Lauren your thoughts? >> Well they're consistent across Apache v2 I believe is what Dan said, so all the projects under the CNCF are consistently licensed. So I think that's great. I think they actually have it together there. You know, I do share your concerns about the politics that are going on a little bit back and forth, the high level, I tend to look back at history a little bit, and for those of us that remember JBoss and the JBoss fork, we're a little bit nervous, right? So I think that it's important to take a look at that and make sure that that doesn't happen. Also, you know, open stack and the stuff that we've talked about before with distros coming out or too many distros going to be hitting the street, and how do we keep that more narrow focused, so this can go across-- >> Yeah, I started this, I like to list rank and iterate things, and I started with this sheet of all the vendors, you know, all the Kubernetes vendors, and then Linux Foundation, or CNCF took it over, and they've got a phenomenal sort of conformance testing and sort of compliance versioning sheet, which lists all the vendors and certification status and updates and so on and I think there's 50 or 60 companies. On one hand I think that's great, because it's more innovation, lots of service providers and offerings, but there is a concern that there might be some fragmentation, but again, this is a really big area of focus, and I think it's being addressed. Yeah, I think the right ones will end up winning, right? >> Joseph: Right, for sure. >> and that's what's going to be key. >> Joseph: Healthy competition. >> Yes. >> All right final question. Let's go around the horn. We'll start with you JJ, wrapping up KubeCon 2018, your thoughts, summary, what's happened here? What will we talk about next year about what happened this week in Denmark? >> I think this week in Denmark has been a huge turning point for the growth in Europe and sort of proof that Kubernetes is on like this unstoppable inflection, growth curve. We usually see a smaller audience here in Europe, relative to the domestic event before it. And we're just seeing the numbers get bigger and bigger. I think looking back we're also going to see just the quality of end users and the end user community and more production success stories starting to become front and center, which I think is really awesome. There's lots of vendors here. But I do believe we have a huge representation of end users and companies actually sharing what they're doing pragmatically and really changing their businesses from Financial Times to Cern and physics projects, and you know, JD and other huge companies. I think that's just really awesome. That's a unique thing of the Kubernetes project. There's some hugely transformative companies doing awesome things out there. >> Lauren your thoughts, summary of the week in Denmark? >> I think it's been awesome. There's so much innovation happening here and I don't want to overuse that word 'cause I think it's kind of BS at some point, but really these companies are doing new things, and they're taking this to new levels. I think that hearing about the excitement of the folks that are coming here to actually learn about Kubernetes is phenomenal, and they're going to bring that back into their companies, and you're going to see a lot more actually coming to Europe next year. I also true multicloud would be phenomenal. I would love that if you could actually glue those platforms together, per se. That's really what I'm looking for. But also security. I think security, there needs to be a security seg. We talked to customers earlier. That's something they want to see. I think that that needs to be something that's brought to the table. >> That's awesome. My view is very simple. You know I think they've done a good job in CNCF and Linux Foundation, the team, building the ecosystem, keeping the governance and the technical and the content piece separate. I think they did a good job of showing the future state that we'd like to get to, which is true multicloud, workload portability, those things still out of reach in my opinion, but they did a great job of keeping the tight core. And to me, when I hear words like defacto standard I think of major inflection points where industries have moved big time. You think of internetworking, you think of the web, you think of these moments where that small little tweak created massive new brands and created a disruptor enabler that just created, changed the game. We saw Cisco coming out of that movement of IP with routers you're seeing 3Com come out of that world. I think that this change, this new little nuance called Kubernetes is going to be absolutely a defacto standard. I think it's definitely an inflection point and you're going to see startups come up with new ideas really fast in a new way, in a new modern global architecture, new startups, and I think people are going to be blown away. I think you're going to see fast rising growth companies. I think it's going to be an investment opportunity whether it's token economics or a venture backer private equity play. You're going to see people come out of the wood work, real smart entrepreneur. I think this is what people have been waiting for in the industry so I mean, I'm just super excited. And so thanks for coming on. >> Thank you for everything you do for the community. I think you truly extract the signal from the noise. I'm really excited to see you keep coming to the show, so it's really awesome. >> I appreciate your support, and again we're co-developing content in the open. Lauren great to host with you this week. >> Thank you, it's been awesome. >> And you got a great new venture, high five there. High five to the founder of KubeCon. This is theCUBE, not to be confused with KubeCon. And we're theCUBE, C-U-B-E. I'm John Furrier, thanks for watching. It's a wrap of day two global coverage here exclusively for KubeCon 2018, CNCF and the Linux Foundation. Thanks for watching. (techno music)

>> Announcer: Live from Boston, Massachusetts, it's theCUBE, covering Red Hat Summit 2017, brought to you by Red Hat. >> In 1993, two years before the height of Microsoft's dominance and amidst a sea of Unix competitors, Red Hat was founded. The company baked over the course of about 20 years and became a dominant open source company and is leading the trend towards cloud and hybrid cloud and containers. Welcome to Boston, everybody. Welcome to Red Hat Summit. This is theCUBE, the worldwide leader in live tech coverage. I'm here with Stu Miniman and Rebecca Knight, my co-hosts for the week, folks. Great to see you guys. Stu, this is your hundredth Red Hat Summit. >> Stu: It's only my fourth because it's the fourth of theCUBE, 13th year of the show itself, Dave, but great to be back here in Boston, you know, our home stadium for Rebecca, you, and me. Glad to have, a little gloomy today, but it's supposed to be nice weather by the time they take 4,000 of the 6,000 attendees here to Fenway on Wednesday, it's supposed to be some nice weather. Beautiful in New England, Red Hat Summit this week, OpenStack Summit next week, so great to be in the hub. >> Dave: And Rebecca, I felt like, well, first of all, great to be working with you. First time for us together. I thought the open was right in your wheelhouse. They opened with a video and the theme was can machines think. What did you make of that? >> So, what really strikes me about this conference is that it's about the technology, it's about the new, the digital transformation that Red Hat is helping facilitate all these companies making, but it's also about really reimagining the workplace of the future. The theme this year is about the individual and powering the individual. So much of what we're going to hear is about how do we engage developers to, to make this digital transformation for these companies? How do we give them the tools they need, not only just the technology, but also the change in mindset and the change in behaviors that they need, to collaborate with others, not only within their own teams, but within different parts of the organization to make these changes? >> So Red Hat's been on a tier, for anybody who follows the company, they do about 2.4 billion dollars a year in revenue, but more importantly, 3 billion dollars in bookings. Unlike many companies who are doing a shift from legacy, you know, trying to keep alive their old business and bring up the new business, Red Hat has a number of tailwinds and one of those is subscription business. Take a company like Oracle for instance, or IBM, that's shifting from a model of upfront, perpetual license into a subscription model. Red Hat, Stu, has always been there and you're seeing it in the numbers, a billion dollars plus on the balance sheet, just really great momentum. The stock price is up. What's your take on all of it? >> Dave, we've watched so many companies in technologies, where you have this huge wave of hype and then how does revenue go? Does it follow, does it peak, and then does it crash? Linux is one of those kind of slow-burn growths. I mean, I remember back, I started working with Red Hat back in 2000, and when I talked to enterprises back then, it was like, "Hey, are you using Linux?" They were like, "No." And they were like, "Wait, Bob in the back corner, "he's been using Linux stuff, "and he's doing some cool stuff." I watched over the next, you know, five to 10 years. It was a slow growth. It just kind of permeated every corner of what we did. I've mentioned, when we do this show, it's like, you know, Red Hat, a 15 billion dollar market cap or whatever, but we wouldn't have Google if it wasn't for the Linux adoption in the world today. So much of the Internet is based on that. You commented during the keynote, Dave, you look at the developer wave, the cloud wave, containers, you know, the shifting to kind of a subscription model rather than kind of the capping. All of those are things that kind of help lift Red Hat. It's where they're growing. It's why they've had 60 consecutive quarters of revenue growth. Now, it's not the 50% revenue growth like some of the cloud guys today or not explosive, but steady, solid, they're customers love them, great excitement here, great geek show, lots of hoodies and backpacks at the show here and exciting to watch. We've got lots of new technologies and announcements and things to dig into the next three days. >> It's interesting, you know, Rebecca, Stu and I had the pleasure of-- We were handing out with some big MIT brains last year in London talking about the second Machine Age and how humans have always replaced machines or machines have always replaced humans. Now, it's in the cognitive world. You see, again, the theme of this morning, a lot of it was AI related. Of course, the controversy there is that as machines replace humans, it hollows out the core of the middle class, the middle working class. But, the reality is that everything is getting digitized and those types of skills are going to be fundamental for growth in personal vocations, the economy. What do you think? >> I agree completely. I think that really the future is going to be humans and machines working side by side together. Last year, Jim Whitehurst was up here at Red Hat talking about how so much of what we still need to see from human workers is creativity, is judgment, is thought, is insight. Right now, machines still aren't quite there yet. The question is teaching machines to think and really having these two beings working together, collaborating together, and that really is where we're seeing things change. >> We talk all the time on theCUBE about companies are essentially, all companies are becoming software companies. Marc Andreessen said software's leading the world. Marc Benioff said they'll be more SAS companies coming from non-tech firms than tech firms. Behind all that, Stu, we heard a bunch of sort of geeky technologies today, but what are the things that are powering Red Hat's momentum? We talked about hybrid cloud, open source, containers. Help us unpack all that stuff. >> Yeah, so first of all, right, what is that next kind of billion dollar opportunity? One of the main pieces for Red Hat is OpenShift. Now, when we first started covering this show, it was like, ah, we know about infrastructures as a service and software as a service, but maybe platform as a service is where it's going. That's kind of where OpenShift was. Today, Paths, we said it a year or two ago, Paths is kind of passe, where OpenShift is a solution that creates a platform, that allows Red Hat to deliver newer technologies as a service. Containers and Kubernetes, I didn't hear Kubernetes mentioned in the keynote, but Red Hat is the largest enterprise contributor. It's basically Google, a bunch of independent people, and then Red Hat is a major contributor to Kubernetes, helping to drive that adoption, that whole next generation application development is where Red Hat is key, that migration to microservices. As we see that transition, it was interesting to see kind of the application discussion. It was how can we take, how can we help you build those new apps, but then how do we take our existing apps? At the Google show, at this show, and some other shows, it's been kind of the lift if shift movement, it's kind of cool again and not cool because we're doing, it's helping to take those legacy applications, move them into a more modern era and that's where OpenShift, there was like the announcement of the OpenShift.io, all the tools they have from Ansible and Jboss, all of these open source projects that Red Hat is very much a core part of that are going to help drive that next wave and help drive them-- There was an announcement, it was mentioned briefly today. I know they're going to talk more about it tomorrow, but the press release went out about a deeper partnership with Amazon Web Services. I think this is likely going to be the number one thing we talk about leaving the show, which is deeper partnership to say my application can live in AWS on OpenShift or can live in my data center on premises and still using AWS services with OpenShift. That whole hybrid or multicloud story that we built out, Red Hat's trying to make a good place why they should be there and extend for AWS because we know that that's the place that they need to compete against Microsoft with all their entire Azure play, Vmware trying to play that, so multifaceted, really interesting dynamic from a competitive standpoint. The opportunity would be billions of dollars opportunity for a company like Red Hat. >> Great, alright, we've got to wrap, but we will be covering those announcements and others. That AWS announcement knocks down all the major clouds now: Azure, Google, AWS, IBM. I guess Oracle's left., but in China. >> Stu: Support Oracle in application, but, you know. >> In terms of clouds. Alright, so keep it right there everybody. We'll be back. Wall-to-wall coverage here from Boston at the Red Hat Summit. This is theCUBE. We'll be right back.

>> Man: Live, from Boston, Massachusetts, it's The Cube, covering Red Hat Summit 2017, brought to you by Red Hat. >> Welcome back to The Cube's coverage of the Red Hat Summit, here in Boston, Massachusetts. I'm you're host Rebecca Knight along with my co-host Stu Miniman. We're joined by Ashesh Badani. He is the Vice President and General Manager of OpenShift here at Red Hat. Thanks so much, Ashesh. >> Thanks for having me on yet again. >> Yes, you are a Cube veteran, so welcome back. We're always happy to talk to you. You're also an OpenShift veteran. You've been there five years, and before the cameras are rolling you were talking about how we really are at a tipping point here with OpenShift, and we're seeing a widespread adoption and embrace of containers. Can you share the context with us. >> Sure, so I think we've spent a fair amount of time in this market talking about how important containers are, the value of containers, DevOps, microservices. I think at this Red Hat Summit, we've spent a fair amount of time trying to ensure that people understand one containers are real, in terms of, you know, adoption level that we're seeing. They're being run in production and at scale. And across a variety of industries, right. So, just at this summit we've had over 30 customers from across the world, across industries like financial services, government, transportation, tech, telco, a variety of different industries talking about how they've been deploying and using containers. At our keynotes we had Macquarie Bank from Australia, Barclay's Bank from the U.K. We had United Health slash OPTUM. All talking about, you know, mission critical applications, how their developers running applications, both new applications, right, microservice-style applications, but also existing legacy applications on the OpenShift platform. >> Ashesh, I've been watching this for a few years, we've talked to you many times, we talked about containers. Maybe I'm oversimplifying it but let me know. It feels like OpenShift is your delivery mechanism to take some things that might be hard if I tried to do them myself and made it a lot simpler. Kind of give like Red Hat did for Linux, I have containers, I have Kubernetes, I have OpenStack, and all three of those I didn't hear a ton at the show, I heard a lot about OpenShift and the OpenShift family because underneath OpenShift are those pieces. Am I gettin' it right, or there's more nuance you need-- >> Great observation, great observation, yeah, and we're seeing that from our customers, too. So, when they're making strategic choice, they're talking about, you know, how can I find the container platform to run at scale. When they make their choice, all they're thinking about well what's the existing, you know, development tools I've got. Can it integrate with the ones that I have in place. What's the underlying infrastructure they can run on. OpenStack of course is a great one, right. We have many customers, Santander, BBVA Bank are just two examples of those, but then also, can I run the OpenShift structure in a hybrid cloud, or I guess what we're calling a multi-cloud world now. Amazon, Google, Asher, and so on. But actually interestingly enough we made some announcements with Amazon as well at the show with regard to making sure some AWS service are able to be integrated into the OpenShare platform. So, we find customers today finding a lot of value in the flexibility of the deployment platforms they have in place, integration with various developer tools. I think my colleague Harry Mower was on earlier talking about OpenShift.io, again, you know, super interesting, super exciting now it's been from our perspective with regard to giving developers more choice. And in addition to that, you know, the other parts of the portfolio, right, going to your point, earlier. We're trying to attach that increasingly as options for customers around OpenShift. Storage is a great example. So we announced some work we've doing with regard to container storage with our classified system for OpenShift. >> So you're talking about simplification and that does seem to be a real theme here. Once you've solved that problem, what's next, what are some of the other customer issues that you need to resolve and help them overcome and make their lives easier? >> Yeah, so, the rate of change in technology, as you well know, you've been following this now for a while is just dramatic, right. I think it's probably faster than we've ever seen in a long, long time. I was having a conversation with a large franchise customer with regard to, you know, just as we feel like, you know, we're getting people to adopt Hadoop, everyone seems to have moved on to Spark. And now we're on Spark and people are talking about, oh, maybe Flink is next. Now that we get to Flink, now they're saying AI and ML is next. It's just like, well, where does this stop, right. So I don't think it stops. The question is, you know, at what point of time do you sort of jump in. Embrace the change, right, that's sort of what Devops all about right, continuous change, you know, embrace it, be able to evolve with it, fail fast, pick yourself up, and then have the organization be in this sort of continuous learning, this kaizen environment. >> Yeah, Ashesh, from day one of the keynote talked about the platforms and you know Red Hat Enterprise Linux was kind of the first big platform that can live a lot of environments. Seems OpenShift is a second platform, and the scope of it seems to be growing. We talked to Harry about the OpenShift.io. He alluded to the fact that we might see expansion into the family there. What is, you said that innovation, and you know change keeps growing. What's the boundaries of what OpenShift's going to cover. Where do you see it today and where's the vision go moving forward? >> Yeah, so (laughs) great question, a double-edged sword right. Because on the one hand of course we want to make sure OpenShift is a foundation for doing a lot of stuff. But then there's also the Linux philosophy. Do one thing, do it well, right. And so there's always this temptation with regard to keeping on wanting to take new things on, right, I mean for a long time people have said, hey, why aren't we in the database business? You know, why aren't you doing more? Well the question is, you know, how many things can we do well? Because anything we commit to, as you well know, Red Hat will invest significant amount of engineering effort upstream in the community to help drive it forward, right. We've done that on Linux container front. We're doing that in Kubernetes. Obviously we do that with RHEL, we've done that Jboss technologies. So, we're very, very cognizant of making sure that we provide an environment and basically an ecosystem around us that can grow and be able to attach the momentum we have in place. As a result of that we announced the container health index at this conference, right. Mostly because, you know, there's just no way for one company to provide all the services that are possible, right. So to be able to grade applications that come in, be able to sort of give customers confidence that, you know, these can be certified and work in our environment, and then be able to kind of expand out that ecosystem is going to be really important going forward. >> Yeah, Ashesh that's an interesting one, the container health index. I'm going to play with the term there. What's the health of the container industry there. We at The Cube at DockerCon a couple weeks ago had a couple of Red Hatters on the program. There was kind of a reshuffling, you know. The Moby project, open source, we've got Docker CE, Docker EE, Docker actually referenced, you know, Fedora and CentOS and RHEL as you know, something that they did similar to but, what's your take on the announcements there? >> Sure, sure, I'll probably butcher this quote tremendously, but it was Mark Twain or someone said, "The rumors of my whatever are greatly exaggerated," so. You know, there's always, you know, some amount of change that sort of happens, especially with new technology, and you've got so many players sort of jumping in, right. I mean of course there's Docker Inc. There's Red Hat but there's, you know, Google and IBM and Microsoft and Amazon, and there's a lot of companies, right, that all look at this as a way of advancing the number of workloads that come onto their platforms. You know, we've seen some of the challenges, if you will, that Docker Inc. has been facing as well as the great work it's been doing to help drive the community forward, right. Those are both interesting things. And they've got a business to run. We've announced, we've seen the changes announced with regard to some of the renaming and Moby, and I think there's still a lot more detail that need to be fleshed out. And so I, we're going to wait for the dust to settle. I think we want to make sure our customers are confident. We've had this conversation with many customers that whatever direction that, you know, we go in, we will continue supporting that technology. We will stand behind it. We will make sure we're putting upstream engineers to help drive the community that will provide the greatest value for customers. >> Ashesh, you're one of the judges for the Innovation Awards here. Can you tell us a little bit more about the secret sauce that you're looking for. First of all, how you choose these winners, and what it is you're looking for. >> Yeah, so I'm really proud of the work I do to help support the judging of the Innovation Awards. You know, I think it's a fantastic thing we do to recognize, I was telling Stu earlier, you know we could probably have done a dozen more awards, right, the entries that are coming in are just fantastic. We try to change up the categories a little bit every year to kind of match with the changes in industry, like for example, you know, DevOps, Macquarie Bank was a great example of enterprise transformation. You know, they had this great line in their keynote right, where their ambition I think really impressed a lot of the judges with regard to, hey our competition is not necessarily the other financial service companies, it's the last app you opened. That's a remarkable thing, right. Especially for an existing traditional financial services company, you see. So, I think what we look for is scope, ambition, and vision, but also how you're executing against it, and what demonstrable results do you have for that. And so, you probably saw that, as, you know, we talked about all the various innovation awards we gave, right, whether it's Macquarie Bank or, you know, British Columbia Empower Individuals, right, so the whole notion of celebrating the impact of individual, and create an exchange for them to engage with the wider civic body. That's really important for us. >> Ashesh, one of the innovation award-winners OPTUM we talked to, they're an OpenShift customer. They're really excited with the AWS announcement. We've been chewing on it, talking to a lot of people. We think it's the most significant news coming out of the show. As you said, there's certain details that need to bake out when we look at some of these things. By the time we get to AWS Reinvent we'll probably understand a little bit some of the pricing and, you know, some of the other pieces, and it'll be there, but, you know, bring us from your viewpoint, from an OpenShift standpoint what this means to kind of an extension of the product line and your customers. >> Yeah, so, we've got, at least at this show you had over 30 customers presenting about their use of OpenShift. And we typically find them deploying OpenShift in a variety of different environments including AWS. So for example Swiss Rail, right, obviously out of Switzerland, is taking advantage of, you know, running it in their own data center, taking advantage of AWS as well. When they're doing that they want to make sure that they can consume services from Amazon. Just as if they were running it on Amazon, right. They like the container platform that OpenShift provides, and they like the abstraction level that it puts in place. Of course they have different choices, right. They can choose to run it on OpenStack, they can choose to run OpenShift in some other public cloud provider, yet there are many services that Amazon's releasing that are extremely interesting and value that they provide to their customers. By being able to have relationship with Amazon, and have an almost native experience of those services with regard to OpenShift, regardless of the underlying infrastructure OpenShift runs, it is a very powerful value proposition, definitely for our customers. It's a great one for Amazon because it allows for their services to be used across a multitude of environments. And we feel good about that because we're creating value for our customers, and of course not precluding them from using other services as well. >> I'm wondering if you could shed a little light on the financials, and how you think about things. I mean, you made this great point about the banks saying our competition is the last app you opened. How do you think, with OpenShift, which is free, how do you view your competition, and how do you think about it in terms of the way companies are making their decisions about where they're putting their money in IT investments. >> Right, so OpenShift isn't free, so I'll just make sure-- (all laugh) >> OpenShift.io >> OpenShift.io, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, yes. >> So, consider OpenShift.io as a great gateway into the OpenShift experience, right. It's a cloud-based web environment allows you to develop in browsers, allows you some collaboration with other developers. There's actually a really cool part of the tech, I don't know if Harry talked about right, which is, we almost have, almost machine-learning aspect part of it, you know, that's in play with regard to, you know, if this is the code you're using, here are what other users are doing with it, making recommendations, and so on, so it's a really modern integrated, you know, development environment that we're sort of introducing. That of course doesn't mean that customers can't use existing ones that they have in place. So this is just giving customers more choice. By doing that, we're basically expanding the span of options the customers have. We introduced something called OpenShift Application Runtimes also at this conference, which is supporting existing Java languages or tools or frameworks, right, whether it's Jboss, EAP, Vortex, WildFly, Spring Boot, but also newer ones like No-JavaScript, right, so again, in the spirit of, let's give you choices, let's have you sort of use what you most want to use, and then from our perspective, right, you know, we will create value when it's been deployed at scale. >> Ashesh, before the event at the beginning of it you guys run something called OpenShift Commons. There's some deep education and a lot of it very interactive. I'm curious if there's anything that's kind of surprised you or interesting nuggets that you got from the users. Either stuff that they were further ahead or further behind, or just something that's grabbin' their attention that you could share with our users. >> Well, what I've been really happy to see with the OpenShift Commons is, well, this is a couple things, right. One is we try our best to make it literally a community event, right, so we call it OpenShift Commons but it is a community event. So in the past and even now, we have providers of technologies, even though they might compete with Red Hat and OpenShift available to talk to. Customers, users of our technology, right, so we want it to be an open, welcoming environment for various providers. Second, we're seeing more and more customers wanting to come out and share their experiences, right. So at this OpenShift Commons, I think we had maybe over 10 customers present on, you know, how they were using OpenShift, and sharing with other customers. Number three, this really attracts other customers. I just had a large financial services institution come and say, you know, we attended OpenShift Commons for the first time. This is a fantastic community. How can we become a part of this? You know, get us involved. There's no cost to join, right, it's free and open, and now our numbers are pretty significant. And then when that's in place, right, the ecosystem forms around it. Now, so we have several different ISVs, global system integrators who are all sort of, you know, coalescing, to provide additional services. >> Ashesh, thanks so much for your time, we appreciate it. It's always a pleasure to have you on the program. >> Ashesh: Thanks again, see you all next time. >> I'm Rebecca Knight for Stu Miniman. There'll be more from the Red Hat Summit after this. (relaxed digital beats)

>> Narrator: Live from Boston, Massachusetts, it's the Cube. Covering Red Hat Summit 2017, brought to you by Red Hat. (techno music) >> Welcome back to Boston, everybody. And welcome back to Red Hat Summit. This is the Cube, the leader in live tech coverage. My name is Dave Vellante, and I'm here with my co-host, Stu Miniman. Stu, we were saying this is your 100th Red Hat Summit, so congratulations on reaching that milestone. Joe Dickman is here. He's the senior vice president of Vizuri. Cool name, love it. And Michael Quintero, or Quintero if you prefer, of LogistiCare. He's an enterprise solutions architect. Gentlemen, welcome to the Cube. >> Thank you. It's a pleasure to be here. >> So Vizuri. Love the name. It strikes a visualization. It's (mumbles) trendy. Tell us about Vizuri, and tell us about your relationship with LogistiCare, and we'll get into it. >> Vizuri is the private division of a company called AEM Corporation. We created the brand to serve the commercial market for research and development. We became partners with JBoss before Red Hat's acquisition, so we jumped into open source in like 2003. And since then, we've built a business around open source technologies, and market leading technologies that bring value. We found LogistiCare because they solicited us for some work to help them transform their organization. And it's worked out well. I mean, Michael and I have been working together for about 18 months. >> So, tell us a little bit about LogistiCare. >> So LogistiCare is the world's largest provider of non-emergency medical transportation. So, we service the health market around people have benefits. The insurance companies don't provide transportation, and the members come to us and we broker the transportation for them. Been in business for quite some time. Do about 70 million trips a year, a little bit more. And we have roughly 80% of that market. And we just want to stay on top of, and be recognized as the world leader in that capability with the best services and the care for our members. >> So JBoss of course was like the second pillar for Red Hat after Red Hat (mumbles) Rob Bearden, who was a CEO at the time, and Cube alum and friend. But so, how did you utilize that capability, the sort of whole middleware, and how does that affect your digital transformation? And where did you guys all fit together? >> So, well digital transformation is a business strategy, not a technology. So, we looked at our need to be more flexible, and dynamic, and innovate. Our legacy, our what we call classic internally, software stack is limiting. It's not service oriented. It's not extensible. It's a compiled, executable, distributed -- serves the business very well. In fact, we're still using it today in some aspects. We haven't fully replaced it. But it's long in the tooth, and it's difficult for us to reach that new business requirement and test and deliver it scale. So, I joined the company to help modernize that architecture. Very quickly recognized that in order to get to scale, and loosely coupling, and massive customization, that microservices was a good solution for us. And when we surveyed the market for a partner that could help take us there, software wise, Red Hat has the most complete stack. They offer everything we need to do, and then they have the things we think we're going to do in the future. So, we looked around for somebody who could help us get to the Red Hat, enable to that, with Docker, and get to an auto-scaling kind of solution so we have infrastructure on demand. And we found Vizuri as a partner. They were able to help us enable the technology and teach us how to do things that we weren't presently doing. Because we didn't have any kind of scale solution in-house, it was just put more web servers out there. >> We started small, it started with a Business Process Management System. If you think about all the logistics that are necessary for coordinating medical transport, "I'm a dialysis patient. I'm somebody that is home-bound. I need to get to a physician appointment." We took that domain knowledge, that's part of one of the pillars of digital transformation. It's infrastructure, it's integration, and it's knowledge management. We started with knowledge management. Think about all the complex business rules for manage care organizations, reimbursement, right? Which is what LogistiCare does. Quickly after we solved that problem, we looked at integration, and we said, "Well now we have all these trading partners." So we guided LogistiCare into their next purchase which was Fuse. So now we had an API strategy for publicly linking them to other consumer providers, because they are a logistics organization for reimbursement. And as Michael said, we started building data centers. Or LogistiCare did. But guess what? Containers and OpenShift came in and we started provisioning our development environments to Amazon Web Services. And when they saw the cost-savings, they abandoned building out on-prem data centers, and went Cloud-native. >> So there's also a revenue drive, or component, as well, right? >> It is. It is. It's an OpEx (mumbles) and the CapEx cost-savings. >> Let's unpack both of those. >> Joe: Sure. >> Where do you want to start? Cost or the telephone numbers? (laughs) >> So, we're mostly a call center based company in history. Right? We have 20-something call centers around the country. We service most of the U.S. And we have a variety of contracts with medical care providers, like Aetna, and Wellpoint, and Blue Cross, and those type people. And then the managed care organizations come in. So, we look to reduce our OpEx by diminishing the number and the interfaces that we have with our call centers. People don't have to call in to the call centers to do business with us. You know, something like one-minute reduction in call-time is about a six or seven million dollar a year benefit for us. And there's a lot of things that people can do for themselves. I mean, you can call in and cancel a trip that they've had scheduled. We figured that about 30% of the cancellation rate, if we could get that done through a service interface, through an IVR, where you can come in and say "I'm not going to go." and cancel it. That's a five or six million dollar savings for us right there. Just in 30%. >> Michael, I'm curious. Was there any hesitancy inside to say, "Okay. I'm going to kill data centers, going to go to a public Cloud." You know, how did that transition go? And anything, you know, kind of the good, the bad, and the ugly that you could share. >> So, well, we're a healthcare company. HIPA and HITRUST certified coming. And there's a certain amount of fear on Cloud migration. So we had to demonstrate the knowledge, skills, and abilities around getting secure, scalable solutions out to the Cloud. And this is our core application. If we don't do this well, we could become Blockbuster and go away. Right? So we don't want that. So, we had Vizuri come to the table and help us understand just how secure we can be, how OpenShift is helping us make sure our information is never violated. There's great integrity in it. And then we did prototyping, and we actually evaluated it, and we have third parties that come in and take a look at our solution and say, "Can I penetrate that? Can I get into your information?" So, and, we also are subject to audit, not only by the federal government, but by all of our payer partners. So we have to be above the line in every criteria, and we think that we are. >> The other thing that you mention was, when we talk about OpEx, right? That's human capital. He talked about the minute per time on a call. We also reduce tribal knowledge. Think about all these new managed care organizations in health care. Is it the call center representative, is it our responsibility to train them on this car, and this company requires a car service, this company requires an ambulance. That knowledge, if we could eliminate that and put that in the middle tier. Now what we do is we have given them a business scale. Now they have a business strategy for taking on new managed health care organizations. Do you have different compliance rules? Do you have different knowledge? It is no longer us having to go back out to those 20 call centers and re-train everybody, because you never know where the consumers are coming from. So, what they do is they answer the phone, they put their information into the system, and the system makes the deterministic call as to what car service, when, and how it's reimbursed. >> So, you say you automated essentially that tribal knowledge. >> Joe: We did. >> Eliminated it. >> And we reduced it so it not only reduced the calls per time frame, but it sped up our time of getting a call center agent from three weeks of training down to basically one. >> Yes, and we have the ability now to support all of our contracts from any call center. So if there's disaster recovery models, or, you know, Phoenix for instance is one of our larger call centers and they get heavy downpours of rain there. There are times when people can't get to work, or they have outages. We can't afford for that function to be offline. So those skills are very easily moved to another call center to support the members that would call in there. Just route the calls. And there's no local knowledge about, you know, my contract in Arizona does a certain thing, or in the Southwest, so it's very simple to support our population from any call center. That gives us the benefit of providing very high quality service, 'cause people when they call in, they expect us to service them. >> Joe, I want to follow up. We were talking about kind of, you know, hesitancy, healthcare tends to be a little bit conservative. I hear things like microservices, and containers. You know, these are still relatively new things. Is (mumbles) -- sorry, OpenShift the solution that allows you to deliver that with confidence to your customers? >> Yes. OpenShift. (laughs) >> Yeah, sorry about that. (laughs) >> No worries. (laughs) OpenShift does. What happens is the Docker container format enables us to pre-configure those servers and those workloads, and we talked about microservices. We wanted to reduce the business decisions or the integrations into the smallest component. What we also wanted to do was provide some taxonomy with them. These are for billing, these are for scheduling, these are for a different aspect of the business. By that, we can change, and we can change often. >> Mhm. >> How long did it take before if we wanted to make a change to some of the infrastructure? >> So. >> Weeks? Months? >> Well, even longer. I mean infrastructure is hard to acquire. And you only talk about CapEx expense. It's very easy, I mean there's a refresh cycle for equipment that you get. So even when you have it, you have to pay attention to maintenance and keeping that thing going forward. As you add scale to your business, you got to go acquire more storage. And it's not a dynamic thing. You have to plan -- the planning cycle is very difficult. We moved to the Cloud. Now we have infrastructure on demand. There's a myriad of choices of platforms and solutions that we can apply to our business model. Things we hadn't even thought of before. We're actually looking now at potentially moving our call centers away from our in-house standard, and moving to an Amazon provided call center solution. Because it can scale. And we can consolidate. And we can provide service from anywhere in the world. That's a big benefit to us. >> It is. So call center as a service, essentially. >> Michael: Yes. >> Is something you're evaluating. >> Think about how big they are. 80 million rides, right. What they didn't want to do is be disintermediated by the newcomers. Right? The Uber's, the Lyft's. They had a large footprint. So, he used the word Blockbuster before, and that's what they use a lot internally. >> Dave: There's one left, in Alaska, I heard. (laughs) >> Who remembers Blockbuster? And then they remember how Blockbuster was no longer in business. So what they wanted to do is to ensure that -- they agilely transformed not only the software engineering discipline, but their firm beliefs. So, everybody from business analysis through implementation has this new agile approach. And one of the features that we developed, we used to send people home after four hours of dialysis in taxi cabs. So, an executive, or team, at LogistiCare said, "We need dependency. We need certified drivers." They actually entered into a business relationship with Lyft. And you want to talk about an agile enterprise? We developed a custom interface into Lyft with a scheduling service that never existed, within five weeks. >> Michael: That's right. >> We would never have been able to do that. And we moved our first ride after five weeks, and since then, we're currently up to about five or six thousand. But it's going to scale to thousands. And the goal is to, again, as Michael said, let people interface with LogistiCare by their device of choice. If we don't have to have people call in to cancel rides, or call in to schedule, then the business scales, and it scales without human capital. >> And the enablers there, (mumbles) we always talk about it, people, process, and technology. So the technology behind that was, what, you're living this API economy that everybody talks about. >> Michael And Joe: We are. >> Joe: That is exactly what we did. >> And then you've got underneath that, OpenShift, what else is sort of there that you're leveraging? >> BPMS, BRMS. So, Business Process Management System. Business Rules Management System. JBoss fused for an integration strategy and Camel Routes. And then Openshift, and then we do Ansible for doing server provisioning. >> And I have to ask you about the security question again. Stu was (mumbles) poking at it before. We've heard from a lot of practitioners that the security in the Cloud is just fine, it is great actually. The challenge is, it doesn't necessarily exactly map the edicts of our organization. So, is that, did you find that? And did you have to maybe change the way in which you plugged into AWS, or was it just sort of out of the box for you? >> So, you have to understand the shared responsibility model when you move to the Cloud, right? I mean they're very good at the security in the Cloud, or of the Cloud, and you have to be good at the security in the Cloud. You can choose bad technology at Amazon and be insecure. But they have a published, HIPA standard, that if you use these technologies, then you can be HIPA certified. We applied our HITRUST certification standards to our choices. We're making very solid -- and this isn't willy nilly. I mean I've been in a HIPA solution for 20 years. So it's not like I don't know what is required, and what the auditors are going to ask us. So, but I do want to redress one point that we can't go past. Is that (mumbles) Our customers are getting better service from all this we're doing. >> Joe: I agree. >> When somebody calls us and says, "I'm ready to go home from the doctor." and they didn't know what time they were going to go home when they scheduled their ride to the doctor, we can get somebody there in 10 minutes now to come and get them and take them home. >> Dave: Wow. >> That's a great satisfier. Rather than having to wait 90 minutes for us to find somebody that can go pick them up. That world has changed, right? And that's a great customer satisfier and that is why they're going to love continuing to do business with us. >> Great business outcome from something that you probably couldn't have done, you know, five years ago? Even maybe two years ago. >> They're a social caring organization. One of the largest rides that they do is for kidney dialysis. And those people, I mean, I've never had it, but somebody sitting there after four hours of dialysis, the last thing you want to do is wait 90 minutes for a cab. You want to go home. You also want to have an authoritative source that the drivers are credentialed drivers. And that's something that we're working on so that not only do these older generations, right? And think about the baby boomers, which I'm actually part of. >> Michael: Me too. (laughs) >> The age population is growing. So the need for these types of services is growing too. And we become accustomed and we get set in our ways. And people might be fearful. Any taxi showing up, versus now, a Lyft shows up, you know who the driver is. You see the car, you see that. There's a high degree of confidence that LogistiCare has the best interests of their constituents. So they manage that type of business. So it's not just technology, it really is a caring and methodical organization. >> But we have the ability to follow patterns that are already established. We look at how Netflix handles their widely distributed kinds of interface devices. You know, how do they figure out what kind of data-stream to send back to what he's got in his hand versus what I have. We're following the same kind of model, and we're using the technology platform to our best advantage to make sure that we're talking to someone who's got a flip-phone differently than we are talking to someone who's got a (mumbles) Plus, right? (Dave laughs) Because the payload can't be the same, but the backend services don't need to know that. We built a solution here that can examine the request and return the right data-stream. So, "Where's my ride?" Might be "Just around the corner." or it might be a map with a breadcrumb trail and a picture of the driver and all of that. Like you get with a Lyft or an Uber. So, you know, we're building it. >> Great case study, gentlemen. Thanks very much for coming to the Cube and sharing it. >> Well, thank you very much for having, we enjoyed the time. >> Alright, keep it right there everybody. We'll be right back with our next guests. This is the Cube. We're live from Red Hat Summit in Boston. Be right back. (electronic music)

(upbeat techno music) >> Host: Live, from Boston Massachusetts, it's the Cube, covering Red Hat Summit 2017, brought to you by Red Hat. >> Welcome to day two of the Red Hat Summit here in beautiful Boston, Massachusetts. I'm your host, Rebecca Knight, with my co-host, Stu Miniman. We are welcoming Jim Whitehurst, who is the president and CEO of Red Hat. Thanks so much for taking the time to sit down with us. >> Thanks, it's great to be here. >> So, I want to talk about the theme of this year's conference, which is celebrating the impact of the individual. In your keynote you talked about the goal of leadership today is to create a context for the individual to try, to modify, to fail, to just keep going. Sounds great. How do you do that? >> Well that's why I say, leadership is about creating a context for that to happen. So you have to create a safe environment for people to try and fail. And you know, this is a tough one, because somebody fails 20 times, you know, maybe it's time him to find a new career. >> Rebecca: (laughs) >> But, you have to create the opportunity for people to fail in a safe way and actually then learn from that. And one of the things I talk a lot about, especially CEOs and CIOs is, you got to create that context. The world that we used to live in was all about taking variance out, you know, Lean Six Sigma process. Innovation's all about injecting variance in, and there's no way to inject variance in without making errors. So how do you, I want to say reward making errors, but you certainly want to reward risk taking and recognize, by definition, some risks aren't going to play out. And that's all about culture. Yeah, it's about process and reward systems, but it's mainly about culture. >> So reward, risk taking, no blaming, what are some other defining elements of this culture in which individuals can feel free to take risks? >> Well, I think a big part of it is you have to celebrate the people who try things And you celebrate taking the risk. You don't necessarily celebrate the successes, right? It's like, you know, in school, you miss something, that's bad, you get something right, that's good. Well we have a tendency to say, let's celebrate the successes, versus actually celebrating the risk taking. And so, there are some processes and systems you have to put in place. You have to have systems in place to make sure no one can risk 100 million dollars. If every Red Hatter could risk 100 million dollars, we'd be in trouble. But you have to figure out how you give enough latitude, enough free time. And, I was just yesterday talking to some Red Hatters who had moved over from IBM. They said, "It's great, we can try new things." Now, try new things within a context of a certain amount of budget or a certain amount of time. So there are processes and systems you have to put in place, but ultimately it's culture more than anything else. It trumps anything else. >> Jim, in your keynote, you said, planning is dead, and that, you know, we're lousy predictors, things are changing so fast. Your role though, you're CEO of a public company that has 60 quarters of consecutive revenue growth. So, it seems you guys are doing pretty well at getting involved in some of the waves that are happening, understanding how to keep growing at a steady pace. Maybe you can reconcile that a little bit for us, as to how you're doing that. >> Yeah, so, one of the reasons that I think that we've been able to navigate a whole set of fairly significant transitions in technology is that we don't select technology, we select communities. And I think that's a really important subtlety. So, we didn't come in and say, "Oh, we like OpenStack more than we like CloudStack of Eucalyptus or the other opensource IaaS that were out five years ago. We looked and observed that OpenStack had built the biggest user base. You know the reason we're significantly involved in Kubernetes today, versus Diego, or Swarm, or the other orchestrators for containers out there, is we observed it was building the biggest community. And, we don't just glom on, we actually kind of get in and contribute ourselves. But we look more to say what are the best communities and let's get involved in that. I don't know what the Kubernetes roadmap is for the next five years, but I'm confident that it has the best community that will drive the right direction for-- >> It's probably a little over-simplified to say you looked for the VHS ecosystem versus the Betamax best technology. >> Rachael: (laughs) >> No, exactly. Exactly, but that's what we think we're good at is observing when a community is the best community. And I say that, it's not just a matter of observation. Whether it's OpenStack or Kubernetes, we get in a help think about governance, right? So, one of the things I think really helped OpenStack is we saw it had the best user community, but we help put together the governance structure, which truly made it neutral, made it open. And so, we try to actually help in doing that, but it really is about identifying communities rather than technologies. >> Is it ever possible that you could identify the right community that might have certain elements, but it's got elements that wouldn't quite work for the opensource way, can you change that community? Is it possible to go in and push a new culture into that community? >> We think we're actually pretty good at that. Now, I think there's a mix of not every community has to be the same. We often talk about, there is no opensource community. There are are literally two million open source communities. And Linux has a culture, many of our projects in JBoss. So Drools is different than Fuse that's different than others. And so, it's okay that the cultures can be different. The key is they all have to have a common element about being open, and committing to being open, and truly being a meritocracy, cause if they best ideas don't win, that's when communities fall apart. And that's actually one of the biggest places where they fall apart. So, I do think we can influence open, and I think just by our contributions we probably influence the cultures of some of those communities. But we don't try to say is there's a Red Hat way to do community. There are a lot of different ways. >> Jim, we look at the cloud space, open is one of these terms that doesn't necessarily mesh with your definition with what the cloud guys do. You guys, of course, supported Red Hat Linux in every single cloud environment that I can think of. For many years you have a expanded partnership with AWS. But, I was debating with Sam Ramji yesterday, from Google, about like, there is no open cloud. There are clouds that use opensource, opensource can live here, but all the big public clouds are built on their platforms and openness is a challenge there. What's your thought as to how you fit there? And then we'll want to get into some of the discussion of the AWS announcement. >> Yeah, sure. So, in defense of the public clouds, it's impossible to offer a physical offering that has hardware in a software stack without it having some of your technologies that don't make it totally open, right? Or transferable. >> Is this why we never saw a Red Hat Open Cloud? >> Well, it's just that, yeah, it doesn't quite make sense in our context for that reason as well. So the role we try to play is, we do try to play the abstracter role, and we do that at multiple levels. So, Red Hat Enterprise Linux runs across a physical data center, virtual data center, and the major clouds. And that's an abstraction point that we think adds value. Because all the way back to 15 years ago, Red Hat Enterprise Linux meant that you could run the same application on a Dell server or an IBM, or an HP Blade, right? And so, we're working to apply that at the cloud level, certainly at the operating system level, but, because of all the services and the growth containers, we needed to do it at another level, and that's what we're doing with OpenShift. So, OpenShift allows you to run on physical, or on virtual in your own data center, on the major public clouds, and take advantages of the services underneath, but do it in a little bit more of an abstracted way. >> All right. So, we had Optum on yesterday, who was also part of the keynote. He's using OpenShift. He's using AWS. He was very excited about the opportunity of OpenShift being able to extend those Amazon services. You and Andy Jassy doing a video this morning. Give us a little bit of the inside look. You know, how long did it take to put this together? My understanding, it's not shipping today, but coming a little bit later this year. Give us a little bit behind what happened. >> Yeah, so. You know, this really started off with a breakfast Andy and I had in January, where we said, look, our teams are working really well together, and we've been partners since 2008, but kind of from the bottom up, I think we were taking very much an incremental approach of what we could do together, what customers we could work with. And, I think it's a little bit in the context of they've been out some other kind of big deals with some other vendors, and so, why don't we think about, what's a true net new offering. So let's now just talk about, oh, running it on Amazon's lower cost. I mean, clearly there's a cost thing there, but, what can we do that's like, wow, actually changes the life of some of the people who are using our technologies. And so what we decided is, well, wouldn't it be amazing, literally at breakfast we were talking about it, if OpenShift, which is used by enterprises all around the world, could actually leverage the thousands of services that AWS is putting out, right? So, right now, if you want to use all of these services, you have to be on AWS, which is great, but there are a lot of customers for whatever reasons, for regulatory reasons, or just by choice or economics, who decided to run on-premise or elsewhere. And so, by making those thousands of services available, it's a win-win all around. For Amazon, it's a ability to expose some really amazing innovation to many, many thousands, hundreds of thousands of developers, and for us it's a way to expose all this innovation to our developers, without kind of forcing someone necessarily to go all-in on cloud. Now, I'll say that we were literally, you know, Sunday night still getting the final contract done. >> Rebecca: (laughing) >> But I would say, when you have a really clear, differentiated source of value for customers, the deal came together, I think, relatively quickly. >> Yeah, et cetera. One of the things we've been trying to reconcile a little bit is, when you talk to customers about where their applications live, that hybrid or multi-cloud world, versus the offerings that are out there, it was a mismatch, because, you know, they were like, oh, I'm using VMware in one place, and I'm using Amazon somewhere else. I've got my SaaS in a different place. We're starting to see Amazon mature their discussion of hybrid through partnerships of yours. OpenShift looks like something that can really help enable customers to kind of get their arms around those environments in many locations. >> Well, I think so. One of the things, if you really go and talk to developers, developers really don't care that much about infrastructure software, and they shouldn't care. And, it's interesting. I think developers right now are really enamored by containers, because containers somewhat makes their life easy. But, I was talking to some of the folks in Red Hat that deal a lot with developers, and they say, ultimately developers shouldn't want to care and don't want to care about even containers. They just want to write code, and they want code to work, right? And one of the cool things about OpenShift is that's kind of what you're doing, is you're saying write code. Yeah, use any of the services you want from anywhere you want to use it. They're all there. They're all available. You don't have to worry about, I want this service, so I have to run this on Amazon, or, hey, I got my database on-premise, so I got to run here. Let's just make it easy. And I think that's one of the cool things about this announcement that's cool for developers, but it's also unique that it's something that only we could bring together. >> Yeah, serverless is something that's been gaining a lot of buzz to kind of say, right, it's underneath there. There's probably going to be containers, but my people writing applications don't want to worry about that. Speak to, it's the application affinity and that tie to kind of modernization of applications that seems to be one of the biggest challenges we've been facing for the last couple of years. Why are companies coming to Red Hat, working across your solution set to help them with that challenge of their older applications, but also kind of building the new businesses. >> Well I think for a couple reasons. So first off, if we really think about what Red Hat is, we call ourselves a software company, but we give away all our IP, so that's a stretch, right? >> Rebecca: (laughs) >> You know, when we think about our overall mission is, we think, there's enterprise customers here with a set of challenges, and there's all this phenomenal innovation happening in opensource communities. How do we build a bridge between those. So certainly that's product. So we create opensource, well, products out of opensource projects. It's about architecture, and then it's about process. And we talked about open innovation labs. But in part of thinking about that's what we do, we obviously start off say, well, what are enterprise problems, and what are technologies that help solve those problems? So, one of the things that we've driven so hard into our container platform is the ability to run stateful applications, right? So it's great to talk about scale-out and cloud native, and we certainly do that, but go talk to any CIO and 99.9% of their application portfolio is stateful. And so, we think about that and we drive those needs. And the reason we're the second largest contributor of Kubernetes isn't just because we're nice people. It's because we're trying to drive enterprise needs into these projects. And so, I do think that technologies that would ultimately emerge, and the products we're able to put out, help enterprises consume opensource in a way that is actually value adding. >> I wanted to ask you about the examples that you used in the keynote today. The three that you highlighted were governance. >> Jim: Yeah. >> And I think that that was really interesting because you're showing how opensource is bringing new innovations and ideas into government and agencies not necessarily known for innovation. Where do you see the future of technology in government coming together? >> Well, one of the reasons I wanted to use government examples is that I actually wanted to highlight, well, what's the role of government when you start thinking about innovation. So, certainly, we could've brought up a lot of examples. You know, yesterday the Optum folks that are big users of our platform, and they've kind of created a context for innovation among their developers. But the reason I wanted to highlight governments, and really try to do it from regions around the world, was to say there is a role for government when you start thinking about what is the new system underneath the economy. So, in the 1940s and 50s in the US the interstate highway system was an important piece of infrastructure. We've always thought about roads and bridges and airports as important for creating the underpinnings for an economy, and that's really, really important in a world of physical goods. And it's not that we don't have physical goods now, but more and more we still have to start thinking about information assets. And look, I've gone and seen the FCC and advocated for net neutrality and all that stuff. And so, certainly broadband as a fundamental infrastructure's important, but I think that government plays a more important role. Whether that's education, and we could spend two hours on education, but even kind of creating these contexts where you make data available. That's what I loved about the British-Columbia example. But broadly it's like, how do you create a context for more citizen participation. I think it's just as important in the 21st Century as roads and bridges were in the 20th Century. >> Jim, you mentioned net neutrality. I'm curious your take on just kind of the global discussion that's going on. A lot of your customers here are international, you've got open communities. The question about net neutrality, trade. It feels like many people, we interviews the president of ICANN a few years ago, and was worried about, you know, are we going to have seven internets, not one internet, because there are certain Asian, and even like Germany, worried about cutting things off. How does that impact your thinking? Do you guys get involved in some of those governmental discussions? >> Well we do. A matter of fact, we actually do have, I'd say a small government affairs team that advocates around these issues. Because we see it too, even with OpenShift, where you start saying, well, different privacy laws in Europe versus the US, but what if someone's running OpenShift in Europe, but it's actually instantiated in the US, and who can get access to what data. Those are really, really important issues. And it is a little bit like, you know, we ought to pick the same railroad gauge, right? To some extent, we need to have a set of consistent policies, not necessarily in every area, but enough that you can actually have the free flow of information, without worrying about, oh my god, I'm exposing myself to felony privacy issues because I'm hosting this application on a cloud that happens to be in the US. So there's some real issues that we have to work through. And they're so bleeding edge and so complex, I'm not sure that we're quite ready to get those done. But these are going to be critical, critical to the economy of the 21st Century. >> The other thing, I can't let you go without asking you about just the opensource business models themself. I've been listening to podcasts. We had a couple of companies go IPO recently. >> Jim: Yeah. >> They're better involved, and they're like, oh wait, I'm an enterprise company, I'm a software company. VC, you shouldn't invest in opensource because they can't monetize what they're doing. What's your take on the investment and business prospect for the other companies that are not Red Hat? >> Well, look, I'm thrilled to see Cloudera going public. Obviously Hortonworks public. MuleSoft recently. And I know some of those are hybrid models, they have an open core, and they have some other proprietary around it. But look, it's still dollars that are getting invested in opensource software I think we've clearly proven a model that you can have 100% opensource and build a successful business. For a whole set of technologies, it's clearly a better innovation model. The thing that I continue to push people is, don't think about it as selling IP. And this is, I've actually had conversations with several university presidents about this same issue. University education is more about the content. Don't be scared of MOOCs, right? And most people kind of get that, a university education, yeah, content's a part of it. But there are 50 other things that make up an education. So that's when I always come back to opensource companies and say, assume the content's free, because it's going to be better if it's totally free. And now think about, how do you build a model around the fact that content's free. And, I think education's a great one. Your industry in media is certainly one that needs to continue to innovate around business models as well. So, rather than saying, let's take a development model that's superior in a number of regards for a set of technologies, especially around infrastructure, and say, let's hamper it, and make it work in the old school business model. Let's continue to work to innovate business models that allow the innovation to happen, because it's going to happen, right? You do have to recognize that so much of what you're seeing in opensource is really a byproduct of what Google and Facebook and others are doing. And that's going to continue, so the best innovation's going to come there. You got to figure out business models that work for it. >> You got to figure them out Thank you so much, Jim. Jim Whitehurst, we appreciate your time. >> It's great to be here. Thanks so much for having me. >> I'm Rebecca Knight for Stu Miniman. We will return with more from the Red Hat Summit. (upbeat techno music)

>> Announcer: Coverage DataWorks Summit Europe 2017 brought to you by Hortonworks. >> Welcome back everyone. Live here in Munich, Germany for theCUBE'S special presentation of Hortonworks Hadoop Summit now called DataWorks 2017. I'm John Furrier, my co-host Dave Vellante, our next guest is Shaun Connolly, Vice President of Corporate Strategy, Chief Strategy Officer. Shaun great to see you again. >> Thanks for having me guys. Always a pleasure. >> Super exciting. Obviously we always pontificating on the status of Hadoop and Hadoop is dead, long live Hadoop, but runs in demise is greatly over-exaggerated, but reality is is that no major shifts in the trends other than the fact that the amplification with AI and machine learning has upleveled the narrative to mainstream around data, big data has been written on on gen one on Hadoop, DevOps, culture, open-source. Starting with Hadoop you guys certainly have been way out in front of all the trends. How you guys have been rolling out the products. But it's now with IoT and AI as that sizzle, the future self driving cars, smart cities, you're starting to really see demand for comprehensive solutions that involve data-centric thinking. Okay, said one. Two, open-source continues to dominate MuleSoft went public, you guys went public years ago, Cloudera filed their S-1. A crop of public companies that are open-source, haven't seen that since Red Hat. >> Exactly. 99 is when Red Hat went public. >> Data-centric, big megatrend with open-source powering it, you couldn't be happier for the stars lining up. >> Yeah, well we definitely placed our bets on that. We went public in 2014 and it's nice to see that graduating class of Taal and MuleSoft, Cloudera coming out. That just I think helps socializes movement that enterprise open-source, whether it's for on-prem or powering cloud solutions pushed out to the edge, and technologies that are relevant in IoT. That's the wave. We had a panel earlier today where Dahl Jeppe from Centric of British Gas, was talking about his ... The digitization of energy and virtual power plant notions. He can't achieve that without open-source powering and fueling that. >> And the thing about it is is just kind of ... For me personally being my age in this generation of computer industry since I was 19, to see the open-source go mainstream the way it is, is even gets better every time, but it really is the thousandth flower bloom strategy. Throwing the seeds out there of innovation. I want to ask you as a strategy question, you guys from a performance standpoint, I would say kind of got hammered in the public market. Cloudera's valuation privately is 4.1 billion, you guys are close to 700 million. Certainly Cloudera's going to get a haircut looks like. The public market is based on the multiples from Dave and I's intro, but there's so much value being created. Where's the value for you guys as you look at the horizon? You're talking about white spaces that are really developing with use cases that are creating value. The practitioners in the field creating value, real value for customers. >> So you covered some of the trends, but I'll translate em into how the customers are deploying. Cloud computing and IoT are somewhat related. One is a centralization, the other is decentralization, so it actually calls for a connected data architecture as we refer to it. We're working with a variety of IoT-related use cases. Coca-Cola, East Japan spoke at Tokyo Summit about beverage replenishment analytics. Getting vending machine analytics from vending machines even on Mount Fuji. And optimizing their flow-through of inventory in just-in-time delivery. That's an IoT-related to run on Azure. It's a cloud-related story and it's a big data analytics story that's actually driving better margins for the business and actually better revenues cuz they're getting the inventory where it needs to be so people can buy it. Those are really interesting use cases that we're seeing being deployed and it's at this convergence of IoT cloud and big data. Ultimately that leads to AI, but I think that's what we're seeing the rise of. >> Can you help us understand that sort of value chain. You've got the edge, you got the cloud, you need something in-between, you're calling it connected data platform. How do you guys participate in that value chain? >> When we went public our primary workhorse platform was Hortonworks Data Platform. We had first class cloud services with Azure HDInsight and Hortonworks Data Cloud for AWS, curated cloud services pay-as-you-go, and Hortonworks DataFlow, I call as our connective tissue, it manages all of your data motion, it's a data logistics platform, it's like FedEx for data delivery. It goes all the way out to the edge. There's a little component called Minify, mini and ify, which does secure intelligent analytics at the edge and transmission. These smart manufacturing lines, you're gathering the data, you're doing analytics on the manufacturing lines, and then you're bringing the historical stuff into the data center where you can do historical analytics across manufacturing lines. Those are the use cases that are connect the data archives-- >> Dave: A subset of that data comes back, right? >> A subset of the data, yep. The key events of that data it may not be full of-- >> 10%, half, 90%? >> It depends if you have operational events that you want to store, sometimes you may want to bring full fidelity of that data so you can do ... As you manufacture stuff and when it got deployed and you're seeing issues in the field, like Western Digital Hard Drives, that failure's in the field, they want that data full fidelity to connect the data architecture and analytics around that data. You need to ... One of the terms I use is in the new world, you need to play it where it lies. If it's out at the edge, you need to play it there. If it makes a stop in the cloud, you need to play it there. If it comes into the data center, you also need to play it there. >> So a couple years ago, you and I were doing a panel at our Big Data NYC event and I used the term "profitless prosperity," I got the hairy eyeball from you, but nonetheless, we talked about you guys as a steward of the industry, you have to invest in open-source projects. And it's expensive. I mean HDFS itself, YARN, Tez, you guys lead a lot of those initiatives. >> Shaun: With the community, yeah, but we-- >> With the community yeah, but you provided contributions and co-leadership let's say. You're there at the front of the pack. How do we project it forward without making forward-looking statements, but how does this industry become a cashflow positive industry? >> Public companies since end of 2014, the markets turned beginning at 2016 towards, prior to that high growth with some losses was palatable, losses were not palatable. That his us, Splunk, Tableau most of the IT sector. That's just the nature of the public markets. As more public open-source, data-driven companies will come in I think it will better educate the market of the value. There's only so much I can do to control the stock price. What I can from a business perspective is hit key measures from a path to profitability. The end of Q4 2016, we hit what we call the just-to-even or breakeven, which is a stepping stone. On our earnings call at the end of 2016 we ended with 185 million in revenue for the year. Only five years into this journey, so that's a hard revenue growth pace and we basically stated in Q3 or Q4 of 17, we will hit operating cashflow neutrality. So we are operating business-- >> John: But you guys also hit a 100 million at record pace too, I believe. >> Yeah, in four years. So revenue is one thing, but operating margins, like if you look at our margins on our subscription business for instance, we've got 84% margin on that. It's a really nice margin business. We can make that better margins, but that's a software margin. >> You know what's ironic, we were talking about Red Hat off camera. Here's Red Hat kicking butt, really hitting all cylinders, three billion dollars in bookings, one would think, okay hey I can maybe project forth some of these open-source companies. Maybe the flip side of this, oh wow we want it now. To your point, the market kind of flipped, but you would think that Red Hat is an indicator of how an open-source model can work. >> By the way Red Hat went public in 99, so it was a different trajectory, like you know I charted their trajectory out. Oracle's trajectory was different. They didn't even in inflation adjusted dollars they didn't hit a 100 million in four years, I think it was seven or eight years or what have you. Salesforce did it in five. So these SaaS models and these subscription models and the cloud services, which is an area that's near and dear to my heart. >> John: Goes faster. >> You get multiple revenue streams across different products. We're a multi-products cloud service company. Not just a single platform. >> So we were actually teasing this out on our-- >> And that's how you grow the business, and that's how Red Hat did it. >> Well I want to get your thoughts on this while we're just kind of ripping live here because Dave and I were talking on our intro segment about the business model and how there's some camouflage out there, at least from my standpoint. One of the main areas that I was kind of pointing at and trying to poke at and want to get your reaction to is in the classic enterprise go-to-market, you have sales force expansive, you guys pay handsomely for that today. Incubating that market, getting the profitability for it is a good thing, but there's also channels, VARs, ISVs, and so on. You guys have an open-source channel that kind of not as a VAR or an ISV, these are entrepreneurs and or businesses themselves. There's got to be a monetization shift there for you guys in the subscription business certainly. When you look at these partners, they're co-developing, they're in open-source, you can almost see the dots connecting. Is this new ecosystem, there's always been an ecosystem, but now that you have kind of a monetization inherently in a pure open distribution model. >> It forces you to collaborate. IBM was on stage talking about our system certified on the Power Systems. Many may look at IBM as competitive, we view them as a partner. Amazon, some may view them as a competitor with us, they've been a great partner in our for AWS. So it forces you to think about how do you collaborate around deeply engineered systems and value and we get great revenue streams that are pulled through that they can sell into the market to their ecosystems. >> How do you vision monetizing the partners? Let's just say Dave and I start this epic idea and we create some connective tissue with your orchestrator called the Data Platform you have and we start making some serious bang. We make a billion dollars. Do you get paid on that if it's open-source? I mean would we be more subscriptions? I'm trying to see how the tide comes in, whose boats float on the rising tide of the innovation in these white spaces. >> Platform thinking is you provide the platform. You provide the platform for 10x value that rides atop that platform. That's how the model works. So if you're riding atop the platform, I expect you and that ecosystem to drive at least 10x above and beyond what I would make as a platform provider in that space. >> So you expect some contributions? >> That's how it works. You need a thousand flowers to be running on the platform. >> You saw that with VMware. They hit 10x and ultimately got to 15 or 16, 17x. >> Shaun: Exactly. >> I think they don't talk about it anymore. I think it's probably trading the other way. >> You know my days at JBoss Red Hat it was somewhere between 15 to 20x. That was the value that was created on top of the platforms. >> What about the ... I want to ask you about the forking of the Hadoop distros. I mean there was a time when everybody was announcing Hadoop distros. John Furrier announced SiliconANGLE was announcing Hadoop distro. So we saw consolidation, and then you guys announced the ODP, then the ODPI initiative, but there seems to be a bit of a forking in Hadoop distros. Is that a fair statement? Unfair? >> I think if you look at how the Linux market played out. You have clearly Red Hat, you had Conicho Ubuntu, you had SUSE. You're always going to have curated platforms for different purposes. We have a strong opinion and a strong focus in the area of IoT, fast analytic data from the edge, and a centralized platform with HDP in the cloud and on-prem. Others in the market Cloudera is running sort of a different play where they're curating different elements and investing in different elements. Doesn't make either one bad or good, we are just going after the markets slightly differently. The other point I'll make there is in 2014 if you looked at the then chart diagrams, there was a lot of overlap. Now if you draw the areas of focus, there's a lot of white space that we're going after that they aren't going after, and they're going after other places and other new vendors are going after others. With the market dynamics of IoT, cloud and AI, you're going to see folks chase the market opportunities. >> Is that dispersity not a problem for customers now or is it challenging? >> There has to be a core level of interoperability and that's one of the reasons why we're collaborating with folks in the ODPI, as an example. There's still when it comes to some of the core components, there has to be a level of predictability, because if you're an ISV riding atop, you're slowed down by death by infinite certification and choices. So ultimately it has to come down to just a much more sane approach to what you can rely on. >> When you guys announced ODP, then ODPI, the extension, Mike Olson wrote a blog saying it's not necessary, people came out against it. Now we're three years in looking back. Was he right or not? >> I think ODPI take away this year, there's more than we can do above and beyond the Hadoop platform. It's expanded to include SQL and other things recently, so there's been some movement on this spec, but frankly you talk to John Mertic at ODPI, you talk to SAS and others, I think we want to be a bit more aggressive in the areas that we go after and try and drive there from a standardization perspective. >> We had Wei Wang on earlier-- >> Shaun: There's more we can do and there's more we should do. >> We had Wei on with Microsoft at our Big Data SV event a couple weeks ago. Talk about the Microsoft relationship with you guys. It seems to be doing very well. Comments on that. >> Microsoft was one of the two companies we chose to partner with early on, so and 2011, 2012 Microsoft and Teradata were the two. Microsoft was how do I democratize and make this technology easy for people. That's manifest itself as Azure Cloud Service, Azure HDInsight-- >> Which is growing like crazy. >> Which is globally deployed and we just had another update. It's fundamentally changed our engineering and delivering model. This latest release was a cloud first delivery model, so one of the things that we're proud of is the interactive SQL and the LLAP technology that's in HDP, that went out through Azure HDInsight what works data cloud first. Then it certified in HDP 2.6 and it went power at the same time. It's that cadence of delivery and cloud first delivery model. We couldn't do it without a partnership with Microsoft. I think we've really learned what it takes-- >> If you look at Microsoft at that time. I remember interviewing you on theCUBE. Microsoft was trading something like $26 a share at that time, around their low point. Now the stock is performing really well. Stockinnetel very cloud oriented-- >> Shaun: They're very open-source. >> They're very open-source and friendly they've been donating a lot to the OCP, to the data center piece. Extremely different Microsoft, so you slipped into that beautiful spot, reacted on that growth. >> I think as one of the stalwarts of enterprise software providers, I think they've done a really great job of bending the curve towards cloud and still having a mixed portfolio, but in sending a field, and sending a channel, and selling cloud and growing that revenue stream, that's nontrivial, that's hard. >> They know the enterprise sales motions too. I want to ask you how that's going over all within Hortonworks. What are some of the conversations that you're involved in with customers today? Again we were saying in our opening segment, it's on YouTube if you're not watching, but the customers is the forcing function right now. They're really putting the pressure one the suppliers, you're one of them, to get tight, reduce friction, lower costs of ownership, get into the cloud, flywheel. And so you see a lot-- >> I'll throw in another aspect some of the more late majority adopters traditionally, over and over right here by 2025 they want to power down the data center and have more things running in the public cloud, if not most everything. That's another eight years or what have you, so it's still a journey, but this journey to making that an imperative because of the operational, because of the agility, because of better predictability, ease of use. That's fundamental. >> As you get into the connected tissue, I love that example, with Kubernetes containers, you've got developers, a big open-source participant and you got all the stuff you have, you just start to see some coalescing around the cloud native. How do you guys look at that conversation? >> I view container platforms, whether they're container services that are running one on cloud or what have you, as the new lightweight rail that everything will ride atop. The cloud currently plays a key role in that, I think that's going to be the defacto way. In particularly if you go cloud first models, particularly for delivery. You need that packaging notion and you need the agility of updates that that's going to provide. I think Red Hat as a partner has been doing great things on hardening that, making it secure. There's others in the ecosystem as well as the cloud providers. All three cloud providers actually are investing in it. >> John: So it's good for your business? >> It removes friction of deployment ... And I ride atop that new rail. It can't get here soon enough from my perspective. >> So I want to ask about clouds. You were talking about the Microsoft shift, personally I think Microsoft realized holy cow, we could actaully make a lot of money if we're selling hardware services. We can make more money if we're selling the full stack. It was sort of an epiphany and so Amazon seems to be doing the same thing. You mentioned earlier you know Amazon is a great partner, even though a lot of people look at them as a competitor, it seems like Amazon, Azure etc., they're building out their own big data stack and offering it as a service. People say that's a threat to you guys, is it a threat or is it a tailwind, is it it is what it is? >> This is why I bring up industry-wide we always have waves of centralization, decentralization. They're playing out simultaneously right now with cloud and IoT. The fact of the matter is that you're going to have multiple clouds on-prem data and data at the edge. That's the problem I am looking to facilitate and solve. I don't view them as competitors, I view them as partners because we need to collaborate because there's a value chain of the flow of the data and some of it's going to be running through and on those platforms. >> The cloud's not going to solve the edge problem. Too expensive. It's just physics. >> So I think that's where things need to go. I think that's why we talk about this notion of connected data. I don't talk hybrid cloud computing, that's for compute. I talk about how do you connect to your data, how do you know where your data is and are you getting the right value out of the data by playing it where it lies. >> I think IoT has been a great sweet trend for the big data industry. It really accelerates the value proposition of the cloud too because now you have a connected network, you can have your cake and eat it too. Central and distributed. >> There's different dynamics in the US versus Europe, as an example. US definitely we're seeing a cloud adoption that's independent of IoT. Here in Europe, I would argue the smart mobility initiatives, the smart manufacturing initiatives, and the connected grid initiatives are bringing cloud in, so it's IoT and cloud and that's opening up the cloud opportunity here. >> Interesting. So on a prospects for Hortonworks cashflow positive Q4 you guys have made a public statement, any other thoughts you want to share. >> Just continue to grow the business, focus on these customer use cases, get them to talk about them at things like DataWorks Summit, and then the more the merrier, the more data-oriented open-source driven companies that can graduate in the public markets, I think is awesome. I think it will just help the industry. >> Operating in the open, with full transparency-- >> Shaun: On the business and the code. (laughter) >> Welcome to the party baby. This is theCUBE here at DataWorks 2017 in Munich, Germany. Live coverage, I'm John Furrier with Dave Vellante. Stay with us. More great coverage coming after this short break. (upbeat music)