(vibrant music) >> Everybody welcome to the special CUBE conversation here at the Palo Alto studios of theCUBE. I'm John Furrier, host of theCUBE. We're here with Dayna Rothman, Vice President of Marketing at Mesosphere. Great to see you. Thanks for coming in. >> Yeah, thanks so much for having me. >> So you guys have a lot of action going on. >> Yes. >> A lot of funding, new CEO, a very successful KubeCon part of the CNCF, we saw each other there. The space is out of control right now. The growth is amazing. >> Yes. >> Amazon reinvent two weeks before in Vegas, packed. >> There's been a lot going on, geez. >> Talk about Mesosphere. You guys got some news and momentum. Talk about the momentum. >> Yeah, we've had a ton of momentum. We got 126 million in funding about eight months ago, or so, a little bit before I joined. I joined five, six months ago. Things have really kicked off in the space. Obviously, the space has gone crazy with everything around Kubernetes and all the different acquisitions and just almost crossing the chasm into some of those later adopters now, which has been really, really great for us. After the funding and hiring on a lot of seasoned executives, we're really taking marketing to the next place, taking what we're doing with product to the next phase, so it's been a great ride so far. >> Yeah, we've had a chance to interview you guys a lot over the years from OpenStack and then as the Cloud Native moves into the mainstream. It's interesting. The tech chops are solid, great company DNA, but it's interesting. You go back a year and a half or two years ago and say the word Kubernete, would be like, what language are you speaking? >> Yeah. >> Now, you see it in Forbes, see it everywhere. Kubernetes has risen to mainstream. Amazon Cloud, Google, Microsoft, they're all growing. Kubernetes is like a core, major generational thing in the tech world. You're new. >> Yes. >> What do you think about Kubernetes? Do you look at this, wow, what is Kubernetes? How did you get attracted to Mesosphere and what do you think about all this? >> Yeah, the funny thing about, just a Kubernetes story and me, I guess. A couple companies ago, working for MarTech company, I did have a boss that actually came from this space and I distinctly remember him talking about Kubernetes at that time and, coming from a different space, I just had like, what are you even talking about? He was going to KubeCon in the early days. So, I was actually familiar with it. Then, how I got attracted to Mesosphere and this space, I'd been at MarTech for a decade and really looking just to do something else and who's doing something really innovative, where's a different space that I can go in that's really growing. MarTech and SalesTech, a lot of these little players right now and nobody's really innovating. Actually, with Mesosphere, my husband actually works there as well and he started about a year and a half ago and I had spoken to the executive team several times about just marketing, best practices and marketing leadership, revenue and attribution, and the more I spoke to them, the more interested I got in the company, and then this role was available and it was just a great fit, plus I knew some of the ins and outs already just from having that connection to Mesosphere in the first place. >> Was it just saying too, you mentioned MarTech. We've been following that space for a long time. We actually got to see how this works with the first cloud before Cloud was a cloud. MarTech was very Cloud-oriented from day one. You think about what that was, self-service, lot of data issues, lot of applications that had real value, 'cause money's there. You got leads and all kinds of marketing activity, so MarTech has that almost cloud-first DNA to begin with and you come from that. Now when you come over to the Cloud Native, you're seeing the developer world building a whole 'nother generation of what looks like many industries that have that same characteristics, self-service, large scale, data. These are the top conversations. >> Yeah. >> So, interesting connection that you have that background. So when you come into this world and you see all these developers building out this application layer, CICD pipelining, and then below Kubernetes, you got all this tech, where are the opportunities? What's the value proposition from Mesosphere? What are you guys attacking? Who's your buyer? Are they developers, are they going to be businesses? Take a minute to explain that. >> A couple of different things to address some of your points. As far as our buyers and where the space is going, I think where we're really strong is really having that enterprise DNA where we can take a lot of this tech and a lot of these open-source projects and really make them enterprise ready so that companies that are much bigger and have all these security regulations and red tape can actually leverage them so that they can continue innovating. As we grow, our buyers are also evolving, from, in the earlier days, mostly developers, engineers, more of that technical crowd, but now we're coming across a lot more executive level folks. We're talking to the CIOs, the CTOs, the business users where we have to shift a little bit and have more of that business use case. The other thing is really that we're getting past the point of the really early adopters. We have customers that have been with us for awhile that are very innovative, Silicon Valley companies, and now we're seeing different industries. We have a lot of automotive clients, finance, manufacturings, some of these older industries that want to adopt technology like Kubernetes, but they don't know how to fit it into what their organization needs and wants from the IT department. >> So there's a lot of education involved, probably. >> I would imagine. >> Yes. >> Value creates other customers. Okay, I've got all these workloads. I see all the early adopters and the web-scale guys. We all live around here. We know all the Ubers and everyone else out there. Lift, what a great case study when you read those guys. But the mainstreamed America kind of companies that have data sets and are going to go to Cloud have to move these workloads around. Are they coming to you guys for specific help? Are they saying, teach us how to do it? What are the specific conversations that you guys have with those customers? >> Sure. Sometimes they come to us with a specific project, but the education piece I think is really big for us to get to the next level on what we're trying to do. That's where what I'm building out in the marketing team is going to be really powerful, so that instead of people coming to us on a project basis, we're educating some of these enterprise companies on how they can leverage it, what they should be thinking about, how they can make that transformation to more of a cloud-like environment and what they need to think about. That's a big part of the strategy going forward, is that we want to get out there as educators, as thought leaders in the space so that we can get in front of some of these folks that maybe have heard of Kubernetes or are thinking about it but don't quite understand what it is and how it fits into their business. We do, though, get several questions on just, hey, I'm interested in CICD, what is it, or what is this Kubernetes, can you guys help us? That's where we're jumping in. >> I want to ask you a question about the B2Bs and the BI space because one of the things I think is really interesting is you start to see the mainstream tech press go, whoa, Enterprise is hot, consumer's not. It tends to have these cycles and when you start to see companies like Mesosphere going to the next level, they're targeting customers in mainstream enterprise. They have to up their game and get on the marketing side. You're hired to do that. What's your strategy? Is it fill the pipeline, is it more educational, build more event, evangelism, localization, is it global? Take us through your vision of what's next level for Mesosphere. >> I think definitely all of those things and one of the most important things for me is, when I came on board, it was really, from an operational perspective, making sure that our marketing department is ready for scale in that we have all the things that we need in order to generate those leads and accelerate them through the pipeline and that we're really partnering with the sales team, so when I think about marketing, it's not just top funnel region, it's like what are the different programs that we're doing in the middle of the funnel to accelerate opportunities to help close deals and that's where we actually create different campaigns to serve some of the middle of the funnel functions. Content is a big piece of my strategy. I come from a content marketing background. I ran content marketing at Marketo for several years pre IPO into post and I really created the content engine there. So I've seen the value of thought leadership content, creating content for the different levels of the buyer journey, so that's a big focus for my team and then building that out with different multi-channel campaigns. Events are huge for us. I love events and we do big scale conferences and ancillary events around the conferences and then we also have a very active field marketing program where we're going into the regions and doing these smaller executive events that are very high-touch. So, it's really like all the different pieces. Right now, we're working on brand, we're working on look and feel, we'll redo the website, so we have everything. >> You're busy. >> Very. (laughs) >> You look great. >> Well, I'm going on. >> You look like you're not stressed at all. You look really relaxed. >> No. >> I want to ask you a question, 'cause you're on the cutting edge, you've got a great background. I love the MarTech. I've always said MarTech never really lived up to its promise because Cloud changed the game, but I still think MarTech will be huge, because with Cloud-scale and data driven strategies, I think it's going to be explosive even further than what we've seen, but there's been a lot of venture backing as Marketo has been successful, just recently bought by Adobe, but as you look at the digital landscape, you mentioned events, what's your thoughts on digital and physical events, 'cause you mentioned high-touch events, spectrum of activities you're deploying, you got physical events which are turning out to be quite fantastic, Face-to-Face is intimate. There's a lot of networking, and digital. How do you bring the event physical world with the digital. How do you view that as a marketer? We combine them, especially for the bigger event campaigns, so whether it's a trade show booth or an ancillary event around a trade show, like a very large party or something like that, we'll have a whole digital promotional strategy around that that includes, maybe we'll create a micro-site, we have ads that are targeted to people that we think that are going to attend these events, we'll do paid programs, other paid channels to drive attendance and to generate that visibility, so I really like to combine them and also email and nurturing is a big part of the strategy as well but it's important to have that online and offline presence and they should map to each other. >> It's interesting, we're seeing a trend, through theCUBE I've been to a lot of events where people want the digital experience to map to what's it like onsite; reputation, work with good people, have that kind of vibe, and it's evolving and search marketing has always been effective. Email marketing is out there, that's tried and true ways to fill the top of the funnel. Is there new techniques that you see coming that marketers should be aware of? You have that history with MarTech. You've seen where it's been and where it's going. What's a new hot area that you're watching that's evolving in real time, because we're go to a web 3.0 where the users have different expectations. It's not just email blasts anymore, although that's one mechanism. What's the new thing? What are you looking at? >> It's this like a new-old thing, I guess, (laughs) but comp-based marketing is something a lot of marketers are getting into right now and it's certainly a hot trend and a hot topic and it's really, I guess, an older way of thinking about marketing instead of that very wide top funnel region where you're just trying to get just thousands of people into your funnel and doing different things, you have your set key account list that you're going after, that your company and your reps and marketing all agree on and you're doing very targeted campaigns to those specific accounts, so we've been doing some really interesting things with different ad platforms. They have ad platforms now where you can actually target on an account by account basis, based on IP address and a lot of other attributes, and you can actually do account-based nurturing through ads, which is very interesting. I can have an ad that specifically calls out the company that only that company sees. Direct mail is actually also a pretty big piece of this, which again, is an older thing. Not direct mail like a little postcard you get, but like a dimensional mailer for an executive >> It's not a spray and pray, very targeted. >> No, it's very targeted. >> Talk about the dynamic, because you're now getting into what we're seeing as a trend where it's not just the marketing person, hey where are my Glengarry leads, or where are the leads, the leads aren't good enough, always that finger-pointing that's tended to go on traditionally, and I may be oversimplifying it, but-- >> It still happens. (laughs) >> The partnering with sales becomes even more critical because you have a lot of surface area in your marketing mix. That's not going away, you mentioned those variety of things, but tightening it up with sales and sales enablement seems to be a trend in marketing in general with data-driven things, because now you can measure everything. Now, it's like, what do you measure? So, having a tighter coupling with sales is a key thing. Talk about that dynamic and how it's changing and what you guys are doing. >> Being really tightly coupled with the sales development team and the sales team is a super important part of our strategy. Even when I think of what our goals are as a marketing organization, it's a lot later in the funnel than I think, historically, marketers have been measured. When I'm reporting out on performance, I report out on the entire funnel. I look at conversion rates for every single stage. Marketing is measured on pipeline and revenue and because of that reason, that requires a very tight coupling with the sales department, understanding who they're going after, what's working, what's not and where people are in the sales cycle so that marketing can jump in and it really assists them. It's not like a who gets credit for what type of situation. It's like we're all moving towards the same goal, so different things that we do, and I think attribution and measurement really helps quite a bit with this, is we can measure what campaign works for different regions. We know what campaigns are good for sourcing people, what campaigns are good for accelerating somebody from a meeting to an op. We can get very granular with topics, channels, campaign types and even accounts, looking at account engagement, so that information is really powerful when you partner with an AE and go at it together. We do a lot of later-stage field events as well, where we're going after key executives in open opportunities and doing very high-end dinners or maybe we're doing a track day or something like that. >> It's interesting because the world's changing from the, again, old to new, is interesting. I love how you put that, because the old way was big end budget, throw it out there, get the reach, and then now it's much more targeted, much more tactical. Still the same strategic objectives, but then cut up into more tactical programs. Is that a challenge for some? Just while you're here, your insight is so amazing. Other marketers that aren't as savvy as you, try to tackle this, what's your advice to them when you start thinking about that, because I'm sure you get asked all the time, how do I tackle this new world? How do you advise friends and colleagues in the industry when they say, I've got to move from the 50/50 ad spin where I don't know where it's being measured, it's a big budget, big ad agency, I want to take those dollars and deploy them into what looks like programs that used to have smaller budgets but in totality can be effective? What's your advice? >> I think it's a hard jump for a lot of marketers. A lot of marketers that I've come in contact with do have that, even if it's not like that big ad budget mentality, it's like that, oh we're responsible for generating leads, and that's kind of where it ends, and you talk impressions in those types of metrics. I think in order to really survive as a marketer these days, you have to move to that next level where you're measuring things and you're really thinking about that full funnel. The advice that I give to a lot of high-end executive teams is to start measuring your marketing department, your VP, your CMO on later stage metrics so that potentially their comp, if it's a bonus or whatever, that it's aligned to the sales team and that we're looking at pipeline and revenue instead of leads generated or impressions or other things like that. >> So real conversion. >> Yeah, just a little bit of a forcing function to get folks there and that's what I do with my team when we look at performance. >> Well Dayna, you're a real pro. Looking forward to having more conversations. I love the MarTech background that you have. I think Cloud Native is essentially going to have, as a major feature, MarTech kind of things. Data, content, analysis, real time, full measurement across multiple spectrums. That's the premise of Cloud, so love to follow up with you. Final topic area is Mesosphere. As you guys go next level, got some big funding, new CEO, what's the positioning, what's the value statement, how are you guys posturing to the marketplace? >> Really focusing on that, how these leader adopters are able to have these enterprise standards by having the flexibility of what some of these different technologies and platforms are able to give these companies. We're definitely focusing a lot on innovating through IOT and we're doing some really cool projects with customers on how they can use our platform for those types of projects and really, from a Kupernetes perspective, we're continuing to work on how we can optimize and drive our value proposition there. Then, again, thinking more in that Cloud-like way, how can we continue pushing the envelope in that Cloud-like experience for our own platform and software. >> Takeaway for you when you look at Amazon reinvent, which was a couple weeks ago and then KubeCon CNCF, Cloud Native Computing Foundation event in Seattle just last week. What was your big takeaway? If you had to look back and zoom out and go on the balcony and look at the stage of the industry, what was your takeaway? What was your personal takeaway? What anecdotal things popped out at you? What was the learnings that you saw in those two events? What's happening? >> I think, again, as time goes, I think a lot of the themes I've been talking about. Especially at KubeCon with 8000 people, they were sold out way before the event. We were actually very surprised that they sold out. We weren't prepared for that 'cause we still had to purchase a bunch of additional tickets, but I think just the popularity of some of these technologies and the business folks and the executives that are attending these events, it is starting to move more towards that enterprise. How can we adopt this stuff for the enterprise? For both events, for me that was a key takeaway. When you're looking at the different vendors, even on the expo floor, what are they talking about, what are they trying to do? Then the attendance at these events and even a lot of the talks were around bringing this stuff to the next level, having more of that cloud-like experience for the enterprise and having those best practices in there. >> As the serious marketer that you are, what was your impression of the role the community plays, because Mesosphere has a great position in the community. They've been a great steward in the community, have a great reputation. The role of the community now as part of the whole marketing production system in and of itself. Reputation, referrals, this is a big part of it. This is a dynamic. Your thoughts on role of the community in marketing in these new areas. >> Role of the community is huge. You need the community on your side in order to grow the business, because those are the folks that are going to evangelize. Those are where the influencers are coming from. For me, as I've gotten into this space, it's really been trying to understand who these people are, what they're interested in, how we can provide value, how we can provide fun, what are the ways we can partner with the community and approach it in more of like a humanistic way, so that's what we've been doing a lot of work, in just trying to get to know the community and creating marketing that is effective and an assistance to them as well. >> One that adds value is always, it's like an upstream project. You create value, you get respected for it, as long as you're not trying to overplay your hand. I do want to get your thoughts on reaction to KubeCon. I thought one of the things that happened there, besides theCUBE being there, of course, we were there from the beginning, was, you guys stole the show at Mesosphere. You had Ice Cube perform, and that was the buzz of the show. Talk about what happened, what was the response, Ice Cube performed, it was great reviews, saw it on Twitter. What was that all about? Share some stories. >> I thought, when we were trying to plan KubeCon, and how can we really, my goal was, I want to take over the show and really generate that buzz. Again, a big piece of that is the community and trying to think of, what can we do for the community that's going to get them excited. Picking an artist is a challenge, right? It's got to hit all these different goals, like you've got to pick somebody that's not crazy millions of dollars, you have to pick somebody that people are really familiar with, you have to pick somebody that most people like that's still relevant. So I think choosing Ice Cube was an important piece of that. Then, that it was just, to me, having come from the MarTech space and the sales-type space, I know what some of these huge, impactful parties and side events can have on a brand and that space is very, that happens a lot, and I've done that in several companies. I don't think it's really happening as much in this space from my experience so far, >> That KubeCon first and that was a big, big production. >> Yeah, exactly. >> What was the feedback? Were you happy with the results, 'cause I thought it was fantastic. >> It was great. We got fantastic feedback. I knew it would be, when we launched it, a very new thing, so it created a lot of buzz, a lot of chatter, could be controversial, which I was prepared for and I thought would be good to start that conversation, but at the event, it was just incredible. We had a completely packed house. Everyone was so excited to be there. We had great reactions on Twitter and I think that the community was just really happy to have that place where we can all come together and have a great time and that enabled us to put our brand out there as, so when people think of Mesosphere, they'll remember that event, so it's been incredibly successful. >> The Ice Cube, great job. Okay, I want to get your thoughts, 2019, what's going to happen for you in 2019? What can we expect from Mesosphere? >> We can definitely expect some great product innovations, different things we're working on, especially with the funding, and a new CEO. We're definitely looking to, we're going to take the brand into the next level. I think you're going to see us a lot more. I'm thinking through a potential, kind of our own user conference in San Francisco for next year, where we'll do a couple of days. Multi-track, thought leadership, a bigger production, so that's something that's exciting. We've got a lot of great programs planned for 2019. >> Awesome. Well, congratulations on a great event at KubeCon with Ice Cube and all of the successful momentum at Mesosphere. >> Yeah, thank you. >> Dayna Rothman here, Vice President of Marketing at Mesosphere, turning up the heat in the marketing, bringing Mesosphere to the next level. A lot of momentum. The industry's on fire, it's just an amazing time in Cloud Native. This is theCUBE covering every day in Cloud Native here. I'm John Furrier. Thanks for watching. (vibrant music)

(vibrant music) >> Everybody welcome to the special CUBE conversation here at the Palo Alto studios of theCUBE. I'm John Furrier, host of theCUBE. We're here with Dayna Rothman, Vice President of Marketing at Mesosphere. Great to see you. Thanks for coming in. >> Yeah, thanks so much for having me. >> So you guys have a lot of action going on. >> Yes. >> A lot of funding, new CEO, a very successful CubeCon part of the CNCF, we saw each other there. The space is out of control right now. The growth is amazing. >> Yes. >> Amazon reinvent two weeks before in Vegas, packed. >> There's been a lot going on, geez. >> Talk about Mesosphere. You guys got some news and momentum. Talk about the momentum. >> Yeah, we've had a ton of momentum. We got 126 million in funding about eight months ago, or so, a little bit before I joined. I joined five, six months ago. Things have really kicked off in the space. Obviously, the space has gone crazy with everything around Kubernetes and all the different acquisitions and just almost crossing the chasm into some of those later adopters now, which has been really, really great for us. After the funding and hiring on a lot of seasoned executives, we're really taking marketing to the next place, taking what we're doing with product to the next phase, so it's been a great ride so far. >> Yeah, we've had a chance to interview you guys a lot over the years from OpenStack and then as the Cloud Native moves into the mainstream. It's interesting. The tech chops are solid, great company DNA, but it's interesting. You go back a year and a half or two years ago and say the word Kubernete, would be like, what language are you speaking? >> Yeah. >> Now, you see it in Forbes, see it everywhere. Kubernetes has risen to mainstream. Amazon Cloud, Google, Microsoft, they're all growing. Kubernetes is like a core, major generational thing in the tech world. You're new. >> Yes. >> What do you think about Kubernetes? Do you look at this, wow, what is Kubernetes? How did you get attracted to Mesosphere and what do you think about all this? >> Yeah, the funny thing about, just a Kubernetes story and me, I guess. A couple companies ago, working for MarTech company, I did have a boss that actually came from this space and I distinctly remember him talking about Kubernetes at that time and, coming from a different space, I just had like, what are you even talking about? He was going to CubeCon in the early days. So, I was actually familiar with it. Then, how I got attracted to Mesosphere and this space, I'd been at MarTech for a decade and really looking just to do something else and who's doing something really innovative, where's a different space that I can go in that's really growing. MarTech and SalesTech, a lot of these little players right now and nobody's really innovating. Actually, with Mesosphere, my husband actually works there as well and he started about a year and a half ago and I had spoken to the executive team several times about just marketing, best practices and marketing leadership, revenue and attribution, and the more I spoke to them, the more interested I got in the company, and then this role was available and it was just a great fit, plus I knew some of the ins and outs already just from having that connection to Mesosphere in the first place. >> Was it just saying too, you mentioned MarTech. We've been following that space for a long time. We actually got to see how this works with the first cloud before Cloud was a cloud. MarTech was very Cloud-oriented from day one. You think about what that was, self-service, lot of data issues, lot of applications that had real value, 'cause money's there. You got leads and all kinds of marketing activity, so MarTech has that almost cloud-first DNA to begin with and you come from that. Now when you come over to the Cloud Native, you're seeing the developer world building a whole 'nother generation of what looks like many industries that have that same characteristics, self-service, large scale, data. These are the top conversations. >> Yeah. >> So, interesting connection that you have that background. So when you come into this world and you see all these developers building out this application layer, CICD pipelining, and then below Kubernetes, you got all this tech, where are the opportunities? What's the value proposition from Mesosphere? What are you guys attacking? Who's your buyer? Are they developers, are they going to be businesses? Take a minute to explain that. >> A couple of different things to address some of your points. As far as our buyers and where the space is going, I think where we're really strong is really having that enterprise DNA where we can take a lot of this tech and a lot of these open-source projects and really make them enterprise ready so that companies that are much bigger and have all these security regulations and red tape can actually leverage them so that they can continue innovating. As we grow, our buyers are also evolving, from, in the earlier days, mostly developers, engineers, more of that technical crowd, but now we're coming across a lot more executive level folks. We're talking to the CIOs, the CTOs, the business users where we have to shift a little bit and have more of that business use case. The other thing is really that we're getting past the point of the really early adopters. We have customers that have been with us for awhile that are very innovative, Silicon Valley companies, and now we're seeing different industries. We have a lot of automotive clients, finance, manufacturings, some of these older industries that want to adopt technology like Kubernetes, but they don't know how to fit it into what their organization needs and wants from the IT department. >> So there's a lot of education involved, probably. >> I would imagine. >> Yes. >> Value creates other customers. Okay, I've got all these workloads. I see all the early adopters and the web-scale guys. We all live around here. We know all the Ubers and everyone else out there. Lift, what a great case study when you read those guys. But the mainstreamed America kind of companies that have data sets and are going to go to Cloud have to move these workloads around. Are they coming to you guys for specific help? Are they saying, teach us how to do it? What are the specific conversations that you guys have with those customers? >> Sure. Sometimes they come to us with a specific project, but the education piece I think is really big for us to get to the next level on what we're trying to do. That's where what I'm building out in the marketing team is going to be really powerful, so that instead of people coming to us on a project basis, we're educating some of these enterprise companies on how they can leverage it, what they should be thinking about, how they can make that transformation to more of a cloud-like environment and what they need to think about. That's a big part of the strategy going forward, is that we want to get out there as educators, as thought leaders in the space so that we can get in front of some of these folks that maybe have heard of Kubernetes or are thinking about it but don't quite understand what it is and how it fits into their business. We do, though, get several questions on just, hey, I'm interested in CICD, what is it, or what is this Kubernetes, can you guys help us? That's where we're jumping in. >> I want to ask you a question about the B2Bs and the BI space because one of the things I think is really interesting is you start to see the mainstream tech press go, whoa, Enterprise is hot, consumer's not. It tends to have these cycles and when you start to see companies like Mesosphere going to the next level, they're targeting customers in mainstream enterprise. They have to up their game and get on the marketing side. You're hired to do that. What's your strategy? Is it fill the pipeline, is it more educational, build more event, evangelism, localization, is it global? Take us through your vision of what's next level for Mesosphere. >> I think definitely all of those things and one of the most important things for me is, when I came on board, it was really, from an operational perspective, making sure that our marketing department is ready for scale in that we have all the things that we need in order to generate those leads and accelerate them through the pipeline and that we're really partnering with the sales team, so when I think about marketing, it's not just top funnel region, it's like what are the different programs that we're doing in the middle of the funnel to accelerate opportunities to help close deals and that's where we actually create different campaigns to serve some of the middle of the funnel functions. Content is a big piece of my strategy. I come from a content marketing background. I ran content marketing at Marketo for several years pre IPO into post and I really created the content engine there. So I've seen the value of thought leadership content, creating content for the different levels of the buyer journey, so that's a big focus for my team and then building that out with different multi-channel campaigns. Events are huge for us. I love events and we do big scale conferences and ancillary events around the conferences and then we also have a very active field marketing program where we're going into the regions and doing these smaller executive events that are very high-touch. So, it's really like all the different pieces. Right now, we're working on brand, we're working on look and feel, we'll redo the website, so we have everything. >> You're busy. >> Very. (laughs) >> You look great. >> Well, I'm going on. >> You look like you're not stressed at all. You look really relaxed. >> No. >> I want to ask you a question, 'cause you're on the cutting edge, you've got a great background. I love the MarTech. I've always said MarTech never really lived up to its promise because Cloud changed the game, but I still think MarTech will be huge, because with Cloud-scale and data driven strategies, I think it's going to be explosive even further than what we've seen, but there's been a lot of venture backing as Marketo has been successful, just recently bought by Adobe, but as you look at the digital landscape, you mentioned events, what's your thoughts on digital and physical events, 'cause you mentioned high-touch events, spectrum of activities you're deploying, you got physical events which are turning out to be quite fantastic, Face-to-Face is intimate. There's a lot of networking, and digital. How do you bring the event physical world with the digital. How do you view that as a marketer? We combine them, especially for the bigger event campaigns, so whether it's a trade show booth or an ancillary event around a trade show, like a very large party or something like that, we'll have a whole digital promotional strategy around that that includes, maybe we'll create a micro-site, we have ads that are targeted to people that we think that are going to attend these events, we'll do paid programs, other paid channels to drive attendance and to generate that visibility, so I really like to combine them and also email and nurturing is a big part of the strategy as well but it's important to have that online and offline presence and they should map to each other. >> It's interesting, we're seeing a trend, through theCUBE I've been to a lot of events where people want the digital experience to map to what's it like onsite; reputation, work with good people, have that kind of vibe, and it's evolving and search marketing has always been effective. Email marketing is out there, that's tried and true ways to fill the top of the funnel. Is there new techniques that you see coming that marketers should be aware of? You have that history with MarTech. You've seen where it's been and where it's going. What's a new hot area that you're watching that's evolving in real time, because we're go to a web 3.0 where the users have different expectations. It's not just email blasts anymore, although that's one mechanism. What's the new thing? What are you looking at? >> It's this like a new-old thing, I guess, (laughs) but comp-based marketing is something a lot of marketers are getting into right now and it's certainly a hot trend and a hot topic and it's really, I guess, an older way of thinking about marketing instead of that very wide top funnel region where you're just trying to get just thousands of people into your funnel and doing different things, you have your set key account list that you're going after, that your company and your reps and marketing all agree on and you're doing very targeted campaigns to those specific accounts, so we've been doing some really interesting things with different ad platforms. They have ad platforms now where you can actually target on an account by account basis, based on IP address and a lot of other attributes, and you can actually do account-based nurturing through ads, which is very interesting. I can have an ad that specifically calls out the company that only that company sees. Direct mail is actually also a pretty big piece of this, which again, is an older thing. Not direct mail like a little postcard you get, but like a dimensional mailer for an executive >> It's not a spray and pray, very targeted. >> No, it's very targeted. >> Talk about the dynamic, because you're now getting into what we're seeing as a trend where it's not just the marketing person, hey where are my Glengarry leads, or where are the leads, the leads aren't good enough, always that finger-pointing that's tended to go on traditionally, and I may be oversimplifying it, but-- >> It still happens. (laughs) >> The partnering with sales becomes even more critical because you have a lot of surface area in your marketing mix. That's not going away, you mentioned those variety of things, but tightening it up with sales and sales enablement seems to be a trend in marketing in general with data-driven things, because now you can measure everything. Now, it's like, what do you measure? So, having a tighter coupling with sales is a key thing. Talk about that dynamic and how it's changing and what you guys are doing. >> Being really tightly coupled with the sales development team and the sales team is a super important part of our strategy. Even when I think of what our goals are as a marketing organization, it's a lot later in the funnel than I think, historically, marketers have been measured. When I'm reporting out on performance, I report out on the entire funnel. I look at conversion rates for every single stage. Marketing is measured on pipeline and revenue and because of that reason, that requires a very tight coupling with the sales department, understanding who they're going after, what's working, what's not and where people are in the sales cycle so that marketing can jump in and it really assists them. It's not like a who gets credit for what type of situation. It's like we're all moving towards the same goal, so different things that we do, and I think attribution and measurement really helps quite a bit with this, is we can measure what campaign works for different regions. We know what campaigns are good for sourcing people, what campaigns are good for accelerating somebody from a meeting to an op. We can get very granular with topics, channels, campaign types and even accounts, looking at account engagement, so that information is really powerful when you partner with an AE and go at it together. We do a lot of later-stage field events as well, where we're going after key executives in open opportunities and doing very high-end dinners or maybe we're doing a track day or something like that. >> It's interesting because the world's changing from the, again, old to new, is interesting. I love how you put that, because the old way was big end budget, throw it out there, get the reach, and then now it's much more targeted, much more tactical. Still the same strategic objectives, but then cut up into more tactical programs. Is that a challenge for some? Just while you're here, your insight is so amazing. Other marketers that aren't as savvy as you, try to tackle this, what's your advice to them when you start thinking about that, because I'm sure you get asked all the time, how do I tackle this new world? How do you advise friends and colleagues in the industry when they say, I've got to move from the 50/50 ad spin where I don't know where it's being measured, it's a big budget, big ad agency, I want to take those dollars and deploy them into what looks like programs that used to have smaller budgets but in totality can be effective? What's your advice? >> I think it's a hard jump for a lot of marketers. A lot of marketers that I've come in contact with do have that, even if it's not like that big ad budget mentality, it's like that, oh we're responsible for generating leads, and that's kind of where it ends, and you talk impressions in those types of metrics. I think in order to really survive as a marketer these days, you have to move to that next level where you're measuring things and you're really thinking about that full funnel. The advice that I give to a lot of high-end executive teams is to start measuring your marketing department, your VP, your CMO on later stage metrics so that potentially their comp, if it's a bonus or whatever, that it's aligned to the sales team and that we're looking at pipeline and revenue instead of leads generated or impressions or other things like that. >> So real conversion. >> Yeah, just a little bit of a forcing function to get folks there and that's what I do with my team when we look at performance. >> Well Dayna, you're a real pro. Looking forward to having more conversations. I love the MarTech background that you have. I think Cloud Native is essentially going to have, as a major feature, MarTech kind of things. Data, content, analysis, real time, full measurement across multiple spectrums. That's the premise of Cloud, so love to follow up with you. Final topic area is Mesosphere. As you guys go next level, got some big funding, new CEO, what's the positioning, what's the value statement, how are you guys posturing to the marketplace? >> Really focusing on that, how these leader adopters are able to have these enterprise standards by having the flexibility of what some of these different technologies and platforms are able to give these companies. We're definitely focusing a lot on innovating through IOT and we're doing some really cool projects with customers on how they can use our platform for those types of projects and really, from a Kupernetes perspective, we're continuing to work on how we can optimize and drive our value proposition there. Then, again, thinking more in that Cloud-like way, how can we continue pushing the envelope in that Cloud-like experience for our own platform and software. >> Takeaway for you when you look at Amazon reinvent, which was a couple weeks ago and then CubeCon CNCF, Cloud Native Computing Foundation event in Seattle just last week. What was your big takeaway? If you had to look back and zoom out and go on the balcony and look at the stage of the industry, what was your takeaway? What was your personal takeaway? What anecdotal things popped out at you? What was the learnings that you saw in those two events? What's happening? >> I think, again, as time goes, I think a lot of the themes I've been talking about. Especially at CubeCon with 8000 people, they were sold out way before the event. We were actually very surprised that they sold out. We weren't prepared for that 'cause we still had to purchase a bunch of additional tickets, but I think just the popularity of some of these technologies and the business folks and the executives that are attending these events, it is starting to move more towards that enterprise. How can we adopt this stuff for the enterprise? For both events, for me that was a key takeaway. When you're looking at the different vendors, even on the expo floor, what are they talking about, what are they trying to do? Then the attendance at these events and even a lot of the talks were around bringing this stuff to the next level, having more of that cloud-like experience for the enterprise and having those best practices in there. >> As the serious marketer that you are, what was your impression of the role the community plays, because Mesosphere has a great position in the community. They've been a great steward in the community, have a great reputation. The role of the community now as part of the whole marketing production system in and of itself. Reputation, referrals, this is a big part of it. This is a dynamic. Your thoughts on role of the community in marketing in these new areas. >> Role of the community is huge. You need the community on your side in order to grow the business, because those are the folks that are going to evangelize. Those are where the influencers are coming from. For me, as I've gotten into this space, it's really been trying to understand who these people are, what they're interested in, how we can provide value, how we can provide fun, what are the ways we can partner with the community and approach it in more of like a humanistic way, so that's what we've been doing a lot of work, in just trying to get to know the community and creating marketing that is effective and an assistance to them as well. >> One that adds value is always, it's like an upstream project. You create value, you get respected for it, as long as you're not trying to overplay your hand. I do want to get your thoughts on reaction to CubeCon. I thought one of the things that happened there, besides theCUBE being there, of course, we were there from the beginning, was, you guys stole the show at Mesosphere. You had Ice Cube perform, and that was the buzz of the show. Talk about what happened, what was the response, Ice Cube performed, it was great reviews, saw it on Twitter. What was that all about? Share some stories. >> I thought, when we were trying to plan CubeCon, and how can we really, my goal was, I want to take over the show and really generate that buzz. Again, a big piece of that is the community and trying to think of, what can we do for the community that's going to get them excited. Picking an artist is a challenge, right? It's got to hit all these different goals, like you've got to pick somebody that's not crazy millions of dollars, you have to pick somebody that people are really familiar with, you have to pick somebody that most people like that's still relevant. So I think choosing Ice Cube was an important piece of that. Then, that it was just, to me, having come from the MarTech space and the sales-type space, I know what some of these huge, impactful parties and side events can have on a brand and that space is very, that happens a lot, and I've done that in several companies. I don't think it's really happening as much in this space from my experience so far, >> That CubeCon first and that was a big, big production. >> Yeah, exactly. >> What was the feedback? Were you happy with the results, 'cause I thought it was fantastic. >> It was great. We got fantastic feedback. I knew it would be, when we launched it, a very new thing, so it created a lot of buzz, a lot of chatter, could be controversial, which I was prepared for and I thought would be good to start that conversation, but at the event, it was just incredible. We had a completely packed house. Everyone was so excited to be there. We had great reactions on Twitter and I think that the community was just really happy to have that place where we can all come together and have a great time and that enabled us to put our brand out there as, so when people think of Mesosphere, they'll remember that event, so it's been incredibly successful. >> The Ice Cube, great job. Okay, I want to get your thoughts, 2019, what's going to happen for you in 2019? What can we expect from Mesosphere? >> We can definitely expect some great product innovations, different things we're working on, especially with the funding, and a new CEO. We're definitely looking to, we're going to take the brand into the next level. I think you're going to see us a lot more. I'm thinking through a potential, kind of our own user conference in San Francisco for next year, where we'll do a couple of days. Multi-track, thought leadership, a bigger production, so that's something that's exciting. We've got a lot of great programs planned for 2019. >> Awesome. Well, congratulations on a great event at CubeCon with Ice Cube and all of the successful momentum at Mesosphere. >> Yeah, thank you. >> Dayna Rothman here, Vice President of Marketing at Mesosphere, turning up the heat in the marketing, bringing Mesosphere to the next level. A lot of momentum. The industry's on fire, it's just an amazing time in Cloud Native. This is theCUBE covering every day in Cloud Native here. I'm John Furrier. Thanks for watching. (vibrant music)

>> Live from San Francisco. It's theCUBE covering DockerCon '18. Brought to you by Docker and it's ecosystem partners. >> Welcome back to theCUBE's coverage of DockerCon 2018. I'm Lisa Martin, in San Francisco, with John Troyer and we're excited to welcome to theCUBE for the first time, Ed Hsu, the V.P. of Product and Product Marketing at Mesosphere. Great to have you on, Ed. >> Thank you. Pleasure to be here. >> So, Mesosphere. Tell us about you guys, what do you do? Why are you at DockerCon? >> Yeah. So, Mesosphere is a hybrid cloud software platform. We basically enable you to very easily adopt all types of new cloud-native technologies like Docker, Kubernetes, Spark, all the things that you think about to build these world changing applications. We automate that for you to run on hybrid cloud infrastructures. >> Nice. So, maybe you could break it down a little bit more. I know people can sometimes get confused. Mesosphere the company, Mesosphere the project, DC/OS the product, and then Kubernetes, and we're here at DockerCon, so maybe untangle some of those things a little bit. >> Sure. Maybe I'll go in chronological order. So Apache Mesos was actually created way back, I think around 2010 as a project to figure out if you had to rebuild Google's proprietary architecture for hyper-scale computing, what might that look like? So that became this project called Apache Mesos. Later on, at companies like Twitter, Airbnb, it started being used to solve some real challenges around scale-ability and performance. Arguably, without Mesos as a technology, I don't think Twitter would probably exist today because Twitter used to crash a lot. You guys remember that. You got the fail whale picture and all that stuff. Apparently, Justin Bieber used to crash Twitter, right? And Mesos became part of the solution. Now, you fast forward a few years later, containerization really caught on, right? And then Docker became a game changer in terms of making sure people start using and adopting container technologies, really popularize containerization, and of course, Kubernetes later came along as a way to orchestrate the operations of these containers. Now, where Mesosphere fits in is our platform is actually below a container-orchestrator, right so, Kubernetes is actually the fifth container-orchestrator to run on Mesos. There's earlier ones like Netflix, I think Twitter themselves. There's different types of container orchestration tools, and Kubernetes became the most recent and frankly most popular container-orchestration tool, and Mesosphere enables customers to really get one turn-key installation and operations of that technology. >> You mentioned Netflix, and I'm thinking, it powers a lot of our lives. But thinking about IoT data-driven applications like that, how does Mesosphere help power IoT and those data-driven applications? >> So, any IoT application probably needs at least three major sets of capabilities. The first is, you have to ingest tons of data. If you're a connected car or a home appliance company, there's a lot of data coming in from all these internet-connected devices. You need a way to ingest all that data without losing any of it and making sure you can be responsible. You also want to be able to analyze that data. So tools like Spark and other things become very important. You also need to be able to host an application or service, and Kubernetes becoming the most popular way to serve these applications. The last and by far, I think, most important piece for hybrid-cloud or for, excuse me, for IoT use cases, is the concept of hybrid-cloud and edge computing. At Mesosphere, we have many connected car companies that are doing connected car or self-driving car projects are actually working with us. And the reason for this is, we provide consistency for running containers like with Kubernetes or data services like Spark and Kafka on a really elastic infrastructure that can be on a data center, on AWS, on Google, or beneath a cell tower or even a cruise ship. Those are all actual use cases. We provide a consistent operating model for operators to just install and run all of this stuff. >> Super nice. I love in 2018 we're past some of the press conversation around who's gonna win or there's only gonna be one way of doing one stack that's gonna win, and Kubernetes versus whatever, and that was a conversation a few years ago. What I love about 2018 is people are in production. And live and time-to-value are very quick and very powerful and very deep and enlightens big data apps. Huge footprint apps as well. So, can you talk a little bit about some of your customers and also, in terms of the hybrid cloud. Are we seeing, are people on Pram? Are you seeing a lot of multi-cloud uses? Do apps span on Pram and clouds? What are some of the use cases and patterns that you see? >> Yeah. So, I think, maybe I'll start with the one I find is most interesting which is Royal Caribbean. If I were to ask you what is the largest computing cluster in the world by geography, you probably wouldn't say Royal Caribbean. So I haven't been on a cruise in a while, but apparently... I remember back in the day when I was a child, when I went on a cruise, you get a daily print-out of today's activities, and if you wanna go upgrade to a meal plan or do a tour or scuba diving, you go line up somewhere, and then you register for it, and if there's enough inventory, you get to do it. And so Royal Caribbean is actually trying to move all of this into a mobile app experience where based on your preferences, based on your history, based on what's available, they'll push certain campaigns to get you to "John, you really gotta try this scuba diving because we've got excess inventory, and we know you have a history of wanting to do surfing excursion" and so forth. So what Royal Caribbean has done is create an infrastructure where they're doing Test and Dev on campaigns and things like that on AWS. They actually do a lot of analytics on Pram in their own data center, and then when a ship is out at sea, serving those mobile applications from on Pram cloud-computing environment. All of this on Mesosphere's DC/OS. And what this means is that the data for interacting with passengers and the campaigns that are available, the management of the inventory, all that data, when the ship is in dock, flies from a data center, through a satellite, through Kafka into the ship. When the ship goes out to sea, all the internet connection is used for, people Skyping with grandma and grandpa and all that stuff, so the ship can actually, from an edge computing standpoint, provide all the resources it needs for these personalized interaction commission. >> That's a big example, Royal Caribbean. It was a very interesting use case, and I know you mentioned Netflix, Verizon. I think I saw a Verizon customer video on your website. When you're talking with companies of either those sizes or Royal Caribbean that's been around for a long time versus a cloud-native like Netflix, what are some of the common data center modernization concerns that you're hearing consistently across company sizes and maybe even consistently across industries? >> Sure. I think that's a great point. I think some of the early, early adopters, like Netflix, Twitter, they have their own way of building out their hyper-scale infrastructures. And so we work very closely with them to address their needs. What we're starting to see as the technology becomes mainstream... There are a lot of common challenges that these mainstream enterprises are either not experienced with, not staffed for, or just don't have the budget to blow a lot on these types of projects. And so, what becomes a key concern is a lot of companies today recognize containerization is interesting, it's important. It has the potential to deliver cost savings, and they recognize they have to move to a Dev/Ops model to deliver code very quickly. But then they also realize that we're starting to live in an always connected economy where you can't just sell a product and not expect to hear from the customer until they have a problem with it. You wanna interact with them, you wanna use that data to help improve the experience for the customer. How do you manage all this information? So the whole concept of data engineering, data operations, and data science becomes really a key factor for many enterprises. And for a lot of them, they just don't have the resources to really address it. Now, there are many different companies that provide individual point solutions for those technologies, but how do you bring it all together in a multi-tenet way, right? How do you make sure if you have one team that's using one version of Spark and another team using a different version of Spark that they can actually share infrastructure? And that's where Mesosphere's uniqueness has really come front and center. We basically pull these data services the way VMware pulled the traditional model basic applications. So the cost saving you saw from server consolidation, we're doing from cluster consolidation and dramatically reducing costs while automating operations at the same time. >> I'd like to follow up on that a little bit. I think ever since the launch of DC/OS a few years back, big data was a differentiator for Mesosphere. And, again, another term that's been through it's own hype cycle, right? But it's real today. Can you maybe go a little deeper with the consolidation piece? How are Mesosphere admins interacting with data scientists or even on the container side and the infrastructure side, what do you have to do differently to make sure the memory footprints and all the various big data platforms are able to be supported? >> Yeah. So I think big data 1.0, let's call it, was really a batch operating model. Wait 'til the data comes in at the end of the quarter, make some recommendations on how the business can improve the next quarter. You guys have all seen reports. I think Gardner talked about one where 80% of due projects have failed. And the reason for this is that it was hard to justify the benefit right up front. The cost and the complexity of rolling out these projects was very prohibitive. Now, what Mesosphere brings is the ability to adopt many different types of these next generation data technologies. Spark, Cassandra distributed database, Kafka message queue, TensorFlow, Elasticsearch, these are all technologies that have become increasingly popular, but the challenge for most enterprises is it's hard to have a whole team just dedicated to learning Kafka and another one on Spark and another one on Cassandra. What if your competitors hire them away? And how do you run all these different technologies that are clustered systems that require a lot of infrastructure? They're not designed to run together and pull together efficiently. That's what Mesosphere really brings to these technologies. One is the ability to automate all these technologies, so instead of getting a whole team to figure out how to run stuff, it's literally one click installation, or a single command on the DC/OS command console. And then two being able to run all these different types of data services in a highly pulled way so that you don't have different clusters that are turning into snowflakes that cannot be reused by other teams. This gives you dramatic changes in how people operate. If you were a big data team at a major bank and somebody said "I wanna do transactions on your infrastructure," you would probably say "No, stay out of my infrastructure because I want to make sure I have the resources to do analytics," and the same would be true for the people who are actually doing the real-time transaction-processing with customers. What if I told you I can give you a way to do application-aware automations so that these services can be automated very easily? And two, these resources can share an infrastructure while maintaining resource guarantees. Now, all of a sudden, the individual functional leads or business unit leads would go "Okay, I'm okay with sharing resources with these other BU's, especially if it gives me the benefit over time of helping different BU's cross-pollinate information." >> A whole different way of interacting with big data, right? And actually making it useful. >> Maybe forcing collaboration. I wish we had more time, but we wanna thank you so much for stopping by theCUBE, telling us what's new at Mesosphere. Sounds like never a dull moment. >> Oh, absolutely. Thank you very much. >> We wanna thank you for watching theCUBE. I am Lisa Martin with John Troyer from DockerCon 2018. Stick around, John and I will be right back with our last guest. (techno music)

>>Good evening, brilliant humans. My name is Savannah Peterson and very delighted to be streaming to you. Live from the Cube Studios here in Motor City, Michigan. I've got John Furrier on my left. John, this is our last interview of the day. Energy just seems to keep oozing. How >>You doing? Take two, Three days of coverage, the queue love segments. This one's great cuz we have a practitioner who's implementing all the hard core talks to be awesome. Can't wait to get into it. >>Yeah, I'm very excited for this one. If it's not very clear, we are a community focused community is a huge theme here at the show at Cape Con. And our next guests are actually a provider and a customer. Turning it over to you. Lisa and Jake, welcome to the show. >>Thank you so much for having us. >>It's great to be here. It is our pleasure. Lisa, you're with Cockroach. Just in case the audience isn't familiar, give us a quick little sound bite. >>We're a distributed sequel database. Highly scalable, reliable. The database you can't kill, right? We will survive the apocalypse. So very resilient. Our customers, mostly retail, FinTech game meet online gambling. They, they, they need that resiliency, they need that scalability. So the indestructible database is the elevator pitch >>And the success has been very well documented. Valuation obviously is a scorp guard, but huge customers. We were at the Escape 19. Just for the record, the first ever multi-cloud conference hasn't come back baby. Love it. It'll come back soon. >>Yeah, well we did a similar version of it just a month ago and I was, that was before Cockroach. I was a different company there talking a lot about multi-cloud. So, but I'm, I've been a car a couple of years now and I run community, I run developer relations. I'm still also a CNCF ambassador, so I lead community as well. I still run a really large user group in the San Francisco Bay area. So we've just >>Been in >>Community, take through the use case. Jake's story set us up. >>Well I would like Jake to take him through the use case and Cockroach is a part of it, but what they've built is amazing. And also Jake's history is amazing. So you can start Jake, >>Wherever you take >>Your Yeah, sure. I'm Jake, I'm CEO and co-founder of Offset. Oted is the commercial entity behind Spice Dvy and Spice Dvy is a permission service. Cool. So a permission service is something that lets developers and let's platform teams really unlock the full potential of their applications. So a lot of people get stuck on My R back isn't flexible enough. How do I do these fine grain things? How do I do these complex sharing workflows that my product manager thinks is so important? And so our service enables those platform teams and developers to do those kinds of things. >>What's your, what's your infrastructure? What's your setup look like? What, how are you guys looking like on the back end? >>Sure. Yeah. So we're obviously built on top of Kubernetes as well. One of the reasons that we're here. So we use Kubernetes, we use Kubernetes operators to orchestrate everything. And then we use, use Cockroach TV as our production data store, our production backend data store. >>So I'm curious, cause I love when these little matchmakers come together. You said you've now been presenting on a little bit of a road show, which is very exciting. Lisa, how are you and the team surfacing stories like Jakes, >>Well, I mean any, any place we can obviously all the social medias, all the blogs, How >>Are you finding it though? >>How, how did you Oh, like from our customers? Yeah, we have an open source version so people start to use us a long time before we even sometimes know about them. And then they'll come to us and they'll be like, I love Cockroach, and like, tell me about it. Like, tell me what you build and if it's interesting, you know, we'll we'll try to give it some light. And it's always interesting to me what people do with it because it's an interesting technology. I like what they've done with it. I mean the, the fact that it's globally distributed, right? That was like a really important thing to you. Totally. >>Yeah. We're also long term fans of Cockroach, so we actually all work together out of Workbench, which was a co-working space and investor in New York City. So yeah, we go way back. We knew the founders. I, I'm constantly saying like if I could have invested early in cockroach, that would've been the easiest check I could have ever signed. >>Yeah, that's awesome. And then we've been following that too and you guys are now using them, but folks that are out there looking to have the, the same challenges, what are the big challenges on selecting the database? I mean, as you know, the history of Cockroach and you're originating the story, folks out there might not know and they're also gonna choose a database. What's the, what's the big challenge that they can solve that that kind of comes together? What, what would you describe that? >>Sure. So we're, as I said, we're a permission service and per the data that you store in a permission service is incredibly sensitive. You need it to be around, right? You need it to be available. If the permission service goes down, almost everything else goes down because it's all calling into the permission service. Is this user allowed to do this? Are they allowed to do that? And if we can't answer those questions, then our customer is down, right? So when we're looking at a database, we're looking for reliability, we're looking for durability, disaster recovery, and then permission services are one of the only services that you usually don't shard geographically. So if you look at like AWS's iam, that's a global service, even though the individual things that they run are actually sharded by region. So we also needed a globally distributed database with all of those other properties. So that's what led us >>To, this is a huge topic. So man, we've been talking about all week the cloud is essentially distributed database at this point and it's distributed system. So distributed database is a hot topic, totally not really well reported. A lot of people talking about it, but how would you describe this distributed trend that's going on? What are the key reasons that they're driving it? What's making this more important than ever in your mind, in your opinion? >>I mean, for our use case, it was just a hard requirement, right? We had to be able to have this global service. But I think just for general use cases, a distributed database, distributed database has that like shared nothing architecture that allows you to kind of keep it running and horizontally scale it. And as your requirements and as your applications needs change, you can just keep adding on capacity and keep adding on reliability and availability. >>I'd love to get both of your opinion. You've been talking about the, the, the, the phases of customers, the advanced got Kubernetes going crazy distributed, super alpha geek. Then you got the, the people who are building now, then you got the lagers who are coming online. Where do you guys see the market now in terms of, I know the Alphas are all building all the great stuff and you guys had great success with all the top logos and they're all doing hardcore stuff. As the mainstream enterprise comes in, where's their psychology, what's on their mind? What's, you share any insight into your perspective on that? Because we're seeing a lot more of it folks becoming like real cloud players. >>Yeah, I feel like in mainstream enterprise hasn't been lagging as much as people think. You know, certainly there's been pockets in big enterprises that have been looking at this and as distributed sequel, it gives you that scalability that it's absolutely essential for big enterprises. But also it gives you the, the multi-region, you know, the, you have to be globally distributed. And for us, for enterprises, you know, you need your data near where the users are. I know this is hugely important to you as well. So you have to be able to have a multi-region functionality and that's one thing that distributed SQL lets you build and that what we built into our product. And I know that's one of the things you like too. >>Yeah, well we're a brand new product. I mean we only founded the company two years ago, but we're actually getting inbound interest from big enterprises because we solve the kinds of challenges that they have and whether, I mean, most of them already do have a cockroach footprint, but whether they did or didn't, once they need to bring in our product, they're going to be adopting cockroach transitively anyway. >>So, So you're built on top of Cockroach, right? And Spice dv, is that open source or? >>It >>Is, yep. Okay. And explain the role of open source and your business model. Can you take a minute to talk about the relevance of that? >>Yeah, open source is key. My background is, before this I was at Red Hat. Before that we were at CoreOS, so CoreOS acquisition and before that, >>One of the best acquisitions that ever happened for the value. That was a great, great team. Yeah, >>We, we, we had fun and before that we built Qua. So my co-founders and I, we built Quay, which is a, a first private docker registry. So CoreOS and, and all of those things are all open source or deeply open source. So it's just in our dna. We also see it as part of our go-to market motion. So if you are a database, a lot of people won't even consider what you're doing without being open source. Cuz they say, I don't want to take a, I don't want to, I don't want to end up in an Oracle situation >>Again. Yeah, Oracle meaning they go, you get you locked in, get you in a headlock, Increase prices. >>Yeah. Oh yeah, >>Can, can >>I got triggered. >>You need to talk about your PTSD there >>Or what. >>I mean we have 20,000 stars on GitHub because we've been open and transparent from the beginning. >>Yeah. And it >>Well, and both of your projects were started based on Google Papers, >>Right? >>That is true. Yep. And that's actually, so we're based off of the Google Zans of our paper. And as you know, Cockroach is based off of the Google Span paper and in the the Zanzibar paper, they have this globally distributed database that they're built on top of. And so when I said we're gonna go and we're gonna make a company around the Zabar paper, people would go, Well, what are you gonna do for Span? And I was like, Easy cockroach, they've got us covered. >>Yeah, I know the guys and my friends. Yeah. So the question is why didn't you get into the first round of Cockroach? She said don't answer that. >>The question he did answer though was one of those age old arguments in our community about pronunciation. We used to argue about Quay, I always called it Key of course. And the co-founder obviously knows how it's pronounced, you know, it's the et cd argument, it's the co cuddl versus the control versus coo, CTL Quay from the co-founder. That is end of argument. You heard it here first >>And we're keeping it going with Osted. So awesome. A lot of people will say Zeed or, you know, so we, we just like to have a little ambiguity >>In the, you gotta have some semantic arguments, arm wrestling here. I mean, it keeps, it keeps everyone entertained, especially on the over the weekend. What's, what's next? You got obviously Kubernetes in there. Can you explain the relationship between Kubernetes, how you're handling Spice dv? What, what does the Kubernetes piece fit in and where, where is that going to be going? >>Yeah, great question. Our flagship product right now is a dedicated, and in a dedicated, what we're doing is we're spinning up a single tenant Kubernetes cluster. We're installing all of our operator suite, and then we're installing the application and running it in a single tenant fashion for our customers in the same region, in the same data center where they're running their applications to minimize latency. Because of this, as an authorization service, latency gets passed on directly to the end user. So everybody's trying to squeeze the latency down as far as they can. And our strategy is to just run these single tenant stacks for people with the minimal latency that we can and give them a VPC dedicated link very similar to what Cockroach does in their dedicated >>Product. And the distributed architecture makes that possible because it's lighter way, it's not as heavy. Is that one of the reasons? >>Yep. And Kubernetes really gives us sort of like a, a level playing field where we can say, we're going going to take the provider, the cloud providers Kubernetes offering, normalize it, lay down our operators, and then use that as the base for delivering >>Our application. You know, Jake, you made me think of something I wanted to bring up with other guests, but now since you're here, you're an expert, I wanna bring that up, but talk about Super Cloud. We, we coined that term, but it's kind of multi-cloud, is that having workloads on multiple clouds is hard. I mean there are, they are, there are workloads on, on clouds, but the complexity of one clouds, let's take aws, they got availability zones, they got regions, you got now data issues in each one being global, not that easy on one cloud, nevermind all clouds. Can you share your thoughts on how you see that progression? Because when you start getting, as its distributed database, a lot of good things might come up that could fit into solving the complexity of global workloads. Could you share your thoughts on or scoping that problem space of, of geography? Yeah, because you mentioned latency, like that's huge. What are some of the other challenges that other people have with mobile? >>Yeah, absolutely. When you have a service like ours where the data is small, but very critical, you can get a vendor like Cockroach to step in and to fill that gap and to give you that globally distributed database that you can call into and retrieve the data. I think the trickier issues come up when you have larger data, you have huge binary blobs. So back when we were doing Quay, we wanted to be a global service as well, but we had, you know, terabytes, petabytes of data that we were like, how do we get this replicated everywhere and not go broke? Yeah. So I think those are kind of the interesting issues moving forward is what do you do with like those huge data lakes, the huge amount of data, but for the, the smaller bits, like the things that we can keep in a relational database. Yeah, we're, we're happy that that's quickly becoming a solved >>Problem. And by the way, that that data problem also is compounded when the architecture goes to the edge. >>Totally. >>I mean this is a big issue. >>Exactly. Yeah. Edge is something that we're thinking a lot about too. Yeah, we're lucky that right now the applications that are consuming us are in a data center already. But as they start to move to the edge, we're going to have to move to the edge with them. And it's a story that we're gonna have to figure out. >>All right, so you're a customer cockroach, what's the testimonial if I put you on the spot, say, hey, what's it like working with these guys? You know, what, what's the, what's the, you know, the founders, so you know, you give a good description, little biased, but we'll, we'll we'll hold you on it. >>Yeah. Working with Cockroach has been great. We've had a couple things that we've run into along the way and we've gotten great support from our account managers. They've brought in the right technical expertise when we need it. Cuz what we're doing with Cockroach is not you, you couldn't do it on Postgres, right? So it's not just a simple rip and replace for us, we're using all of the features of Cockroach, right? We're doing as of system time queries, we're doing global replication. We're, you know, we're, we're consuming it all. And so we do need help from them sometimes and they've been great. Yeah. >>And that's natural as they grow their service. I mean the world's changing. >>Well I think one of the important points that you mentioned with multi-cloud, we want you to have the choice. You know, you can run it in in clouds, you can run it hybrid, you can run it OnPrem, you can do whatever you want and it's just, it's one application that you can run in these different data centers. And so really it's up to you how do you want to build your infrastructure? >>And one of the things we've been talking about, the super cloud concept that we've been issue getting a lot of contrary, but, but people are leaning into it is that it's the refactoring and taking advantage of the services. Like what you mentioned about cockroach. People are doing that now on cloud going the lift and shift market kind of had it time now it's like hey, I can start taking advantage of these higher level services or capability of someone else's stack and refactoring it. So I think that's a dynamic that I'm seeing a lot more of. And it sounds like it's working out great in this situation. >>I just came from a talk and I asked them, you know, what don't you wanna put in the cloud and what don't you wanna run in Kubernetes or on containers and good Yeah. And the customers that I was on stage with, one of the guys made a joke and he said I would put my dog in a container room. I could, he was like in the category, which is his right, which he is in the category of like, I'll put everything in containers and these are, you know, including like mis critical apps, heritage apps, since they don't wanna see legacy anymore. Heritage apps, these are huge enterprises and they wanna put everything in the cloud. Everything >>You so want your dog that gets stuck on the airplane when it's on the tarmac. >>Oh >>God, that's, she was the, don't take that analogy. Literally don't think about that. Well that's, >>That's let's not containerize. >>There's always supply chain concern. >>It. So I mean going macro and especially given where we are cncf, it's all about open source. Do y'all think that open source builds a better future? >>Yeah and a better past. I mean this is, so much of this software is founded on open source. I, we wouldn't be here really. I've been in open source community for many, many years so I wouldn't say I'm biased. I would say this is how we build software. I came from like in a high school we're all like, oh let's build a really cool application. Oh you know what? I built this cuz I needed it, but maybe somebody else needs it too. And you put it out there and that is the ethos of Silicon Valley, right? That's where we grew up. So I've always had that mindset, you know, and social coding and why I have three people, right? Working on the same thing when one person you could share it's so inefficient. All of that. Yeah. So I think it's great that people work on what they're really good at. You know, we all, now you need some standardization, you need some kind of control around this whole thing. Sometimes some foundations to, you know, herd the cats. Yeah. But it's, it's great. Which is why I'm a c CF ambassador and I spend a lot of time, you know, in my free time talking about open source. Yeah, yeah. >>It's clear how passionate you are about it. Jake, >>This is my second company that we founded now and I don't think either of them could have existed without the base of open source, right? Like when you look at I have this cool idea for an app or a company and I want to go try it out, the last thing I want to do is go and negotiate with a vendor to get like the core data component. Yeah. To even be able to get to the >>Prototypes. NK too, by the way. Yeah. >>Hey >>Nk >>Or hire, you know, a bunch of PhDs to go and build that core component for me. So yeah, I mean nobody can argue that >>It truly is, I gotta say a best time if you're a developer right now, it's awesome to be a developer right now. It's only gonna get better. As we were riff from the last session about productivity, we believe that if you follow the digital transformation to its conclusion, developers and it aren't a department serving the business, they are the business. And that means they're running the show, which means that now their entire workflow is gonna change. It's gonna be have to be leveraging services partnering. So yeah, open source just fills that. So the more code coming up, it's just no doubt in our mind that that's go, that's happening and will accelerate. So yeah, >>You know, no one company is gonna be able to compete with a community. 50,000 users contributing versus you riding it yourself in your garage with >>Your dogs. Well it's people driven too. It's humans not container. It's humans working together. And here you'll see, I won't say horse training, that's a bad term, but like as projects start to get traction, hey, why don't we come together as, as the world starts to settle and the projects have traction, you start to see visibility into use cases, functionality. Some projects might not be, they have to kind of see more kind >>Of, not every feature is gonna be development. Oh. So I mean, you know, this is why you connect with truly brilliant people who can architect and distribute sequel database. Like who thought of that? It's amazing. It's as, as our friend >>You say, Well let me ask you a question before we wrap up, both by time, what is the secret of Kubernetes success? What made Kubernetes specifically successful? Was it timing? Was it the, the unambitious nature of it, the unification of it? Was it, what was the reason why is Kubernetes successful, right? And why nothing else? >>Well, you know what I'm gonna say? So I'm gonna let Dave >>First don't Jake, you go first. >>Oh boy. If we look at what was happening when Kubernetes first came out, it was, Mesosphere was kind of like the, the big player in the space. I think Kubernetes really, it had the backing from the right companies. It had the, you know, it had the credibility, it was sort of loosely based on Borg, but with the story of like, we've fixed everything that was broken in Borg. Yeah. And it's better now. Yeah. So I think it was just kind and, and obviously people were looking for a solution to this problem as they were going through their containerization journey. And I, yeah, I think it was just right >>Place, the timing consensus of hey, if we just let this happen, something good might come together for everybody. That's the way I felt. I >>Think it was right place, right time, right solution. And then it just kind of exploded when we were at Cores. Alex Povi, our ceo, he heard about Kubernetes and he was like, you know, we, we had a thing called Fleet D or we had a tool called Fleet. And he's like, Nope, we're all in on Kubernetes now. And that was an amazing Yeah, >>I remember that interview. >>I, amazing decision. >>Yeah, >>It's clear we can feel the shift. It's something that's come up a lot this week is is the commitment. Everybody's all in. People are ready for their transformation and Kubernetes is definitely gonna be the orchestrator that we're >>Leveraging. Yeah. And it's an amazing community. But it was, we got lucky that the, the foundational technology, I mean, you know, coming out of Google based on Go conferences, based on Go, it's no to coincidence that this sort of nature of, you know, pods horizontally, scalable, it's all fits together. I does make sense. Yeah. I mean, no offense to Python and some of the other technologies that were built in other languages, but Go is an awesome language. It's so, so innovative. Innovative things you could do with it. >>Awesome. Oh definitely. Jake, I'm very curious since we learned on the way and you are a Detroit native? >>I am. Yep. I grew up in the in Warren, which is just a suburb right outside of Detroit. >>So what does it mean to you as a Michigan born bloke to be here, see your entire community invade? >>It is, I grew up coming to the Detroit Auto Show in this very room >>That brought me to Detroit the first time. Love n a I a s. Been there with our friends at Ford just behind us. >>And it's just so interesting to me to see the accumulation, the accumulation of tech coming to Detroit cuz it's really not something that historically has been a huge presence. And I just love it. I love to see the activity out on the streets. I love to see all the restaurants and coffee shops full of people. Just, I might tear up. >>Well, I was wondering if it would give you a little bit of that hometown pride and also the joy of bringing your community together. I mean, this is merging your two probably most core communities. Yeah, >>Yeah. Your >>Youth and your, and your career. It doesn't get more personal than that really. Right. >>It's just been, it's been really exciting to see the energy. >>Well thanks for going on the queue. Thanks for sharing. Appreciate it. Thanks >>For having us. Yeah, thank you both so much. Lisa, you were a joy of ball of energy right when you walked up. Jake, what a compelling story. Really appreciate you sharing it with us. John, thanks for the banter and the fabulous questions. I'm >>Glad I could help out. >>Yeah, you do. A lot more than help out sweetheart. And to all of you watching the Cube today, thank you so much for joining us live from Detroit, the Cube Studios. My name is Savannah Peterson and we'll see you for our event wrap up next.

(calm music) >> Hi everybody. We're here at VeeamON 2022. This is day two of the CUBE's continuous coverage. I'm Dave Vellante. My co-host is Dave Nicholson. A ton of energy. The keynotes, day two keynotes are all about products at Veeam. Veeam, the color of green, same color as money. And so, and it flows in this ecosystem. I'll tell you right now, Michael Cade is here. He's the senior technologist for product strategy at Veeam. Michael, fresh off the keynotes. >> Yeah, yeah. >> Welcome. Danny Allen's keynote was fantastic. I mean, that story he told blew me away. I can't wait to have him back. Stay tuned for that one. But we're going to talk about protecting containers, Kasten. You guys got announcements of Kasten by Veeam, you call it K10 version five, I think? >> Yeah. So just rolled into 5.0 release this week. Now, it's a bit different to what we see from a VBR release cycle kind of thing, cause we're constantly working on a two week sprint cycle. So as much as 5.0's been launched and announced, we're going to see that trickling out over the next couple of months until we get round to Cube (indistinct) and we do all of this again, right? >> So let's back up. I first bumped into Kasten, gosh, it was several years ago at VeeamON. Like, wow this is a really interesting company. I had deep conversations with them. They had a sheer, sheer cat grin, like something was going on and okay finally you acquire them, but go back a little bit of history. Like why the need for this? Containers used to be ephemeral. You know, you didn't have to persist them. That changed, but you guys are way ahead of that trend. Talk a little bit more about the history there and then we'll get into current day. >> Yeah, I think the need for stateful workloads within Kubernetes is absolutely grown. I think we just saw 1.24 of Kubernetes get released last week or a couple of weeks ago now. And really the focus there, you can see, at least three of the big ticket items in that release are focused around storage and data. So it just encourages that the community is wanting to put these data services within that. But it's also common, right? It's great to think about a stateless... If you've got stateless application but even a web server's got some state, right? There's always going to be some data associated to an application. And if there isn't then like, great but that doesn't really work- >> You're right. Where'd they click, where'd they go? I mean little things like that, right? >> Yeah. Yeah, exactly. So one of the things that we are seeing from that is like obviously the requirement to back up and put in a lot of data services in there, and taking full like exposure of the Kubernetes ecosystem, HA, and very tiny containers versus these large like virtual machines that we've always had the story at Veeam around the portability and being able to move them left, right, here, there, and everywhere. But from a K10 point of view, the ability to not only protect them, but also move those applications or move that data wherever they need to be. >> Okay. So, and Kubernetes of course has evolved. I mean the early days of Kubernetes, they kept it simple, kind of like Veeam actually. Right? >> Yeah. >> And then, you know, even though Mesosphere and even Docker Swarm, they were trying to do more sophisticated cluster management. Kubernetes has now got projects getting much more complicated. So more complicated workloads mean more data, more critical data means more protection. Okay, so you acquire Kasten, we know that's a small part of your business today but it's going to be growing. We know this cause everybody's developing applications. So what's different about protecting containers? Danny talks about modern data protection. Okay, when I first heard that, I'm like, eh, nice tagline, but then he peel the onion. He explains how in virtualization, you went from agents to backing up of VMware instance, a virtual instance. What's different about containers? What constitutes modern data protection for containers? >> Yeah, so I think the story that Danny tells as well, is so when we had our physical agents and virtualization came along and a lot of... And this is really where Veeam was born, right, we went into the virtualization API, the VMware API, and we started leveraging that to be more storage efficient. The admin overhead around those agents weren't there then, we could just back up using the API. Whereas obviously a lot of our competition would use agents still and put that resource overhead on top of that. So that's where Veeam initially got the kickstart in that world. I think it's very similar to when it comes to Kubernetes because K10 is deployed within the Kubernetes cluster and it leverages the Kubernetes API to pull out that data in a more efficient way. You could use image based backups or traditional NAS based backups to protect some of the data, and backup's kind of the... It's only one of the ticks in the boxes, right? You have to be able to restore and know what that data is. >> But wait, your competitors aren't as fat, dumb and happy today as they were back then, right? So it can't... They use the same APIs and- >> Yeah. >> So what makes you guys different? >> So I think that's testament to the Kubernetes and the community behind that and things like the CSI driver, which enables the storage vendors to take that CSI abstraction layer and then integrate their storage components, their snapshot technologies, and other efficiency models in there, and be able to leverage that as part of a universal data protection API. So really that's one tick in the box and you're absolutely right, there's open source tools that can do exactly what we're doing to a degree on that backup and recovery. Where it gets really interesting is the mobility of data and how we're protecting that. Because as much as stateful workloads are seen within the Kubernetes environments now, they're also seen outside. So things like Amazon RDS, but the front end lives in Kubernetes going to that stateless point. But being able to protect the whole application and being very application aware means that we can capture everything and restore wherever we want that to go as well. Like, so the demo that I just did was actually a Postgres database in AWS, and us being able to clone or migrate that out into an EKS cluster as a staple set. So again, we're not leveraging RDS at that point, but it gives us the freedom of movement of that data. >> Yeah, I want to talk about that, what you actually demoed. One of the interesting things, we were talking earlier, I didn't see any CLI when you were going through the integration of K10 V5 and V12. >> Yeah. >> That was very interesting, but I'm more skeptical of this concept, of the single pane of glass and how useful that is. Who is this integration targeting? Are you targeting the sort of traditional Veeam user who is now adding as a responsibility, the management of protecting these Kubernetes environments? Or are you at the same time targeting the current owners of those environments? Cause I know you talk about shift left and- >> Yeah. >> You know, nobody needs Kubernetes if you only have one container and one thing you're doing. So at some point it's all about automation, it's about blueprints, it's about getting those things in early. So you get up, you talk about this integration, who cares about that kind of integration? >> Yeah, so I think it's a bit of both, right? So we're definitely focused around the DevOps focused engineer. Let's just call it that. And under an umbrella, the cloud engineer that's looking after Kubernetes, from an application delivery perspective. But I think more and more as we get further up the mountain, CIS admin, obviously who we speak to the tech decision makers, the solutions architects systems engineers, they're going to inherit and be that platform operator around the Kubernetes clusters. And they're probably going to land with the requirement around data management as well. So the specific VBR centralized management is very much for the backup admin, the infrastructure admin or the cloud based engineer that's looking after the Kubernetes cluster and the data within that. Still we speak to app developers who are conscious of what their database looks like, because that's an external data service. And the biggest question that we have or the biggest conversation we have with them is that the source code, the GitHub or the source repository, that's fine, that will get your... That'll get some of the way back up and running, but when it comes to a Postgres database or some sort of data service, oh, that's out of the CI/CD pipeline. So it's whether they're interested in that or whether that gets farmed out into another pre-operations, the traditional operations team. >> So I want to unpack your press release a little bit. It's full of all the acronyms, so maybe you can help us- >> Sure. >> Cipher. You got security everywhere enhance platform hardening, including KMS. That's key- >> Yeah, key management service, yeah. >> System, okay. With AWS, KMS and HashiCorp vault. Awesome, love to see HashiCorp company. >> Yeah. >> RBAC objects in UI dashboards, ransomware attacks, AWS S3. So anyway, security everywhere. What do you mean by that? >> So I think traditionally at Veeam, and continue that, right? From a security perspective, if you think about the failure scenario and ransomware's, the hot topic, right, when it comes to security, but we can think about security as, if we think about that as the bang, right, the bang is something bad's happen, fire, flood, blood, type stuff. And we tend to be that right hand side of that, we tend to be the remediation. We're definitely the one, the last line of defense to get stuff back when something really bad happens. And I think what we've done from a K10 point of view, is not only enhance that, so with the likes of being able to... We're not going to reinvent the wheel, let's use the services that HashiCorp have done from a HashiCorp vault point of view and integrate from a key management system. But then also things like S3 or ransomware prevention. So I want to know if something bad's happened and Kasten actually did something more generic from a Veeam ONE perspective, but one of the pieces that we've seen since we've then started to send our backups to an immutable object storage, is let's be more of that left as well and start looking at the preventative tasks that we can help with. Now, we're not going to be a security company, but you heard all the way through Danny's like keynote, and probably when he is been on here, is that it's always, we're always mindful of that security focus. >> On that point, what was being looked for? A spike in CPU utilization that would be associated with encryption? >> Yeah, exactly that. >> Is that what was being looked- >> That could be... Yeah, exactly that. So that could be from a virtual machine point of view but from a K10, and it specifically is that we're going to look at the S3 bucket or the object storage, we're going to see if there's a rate of change that's out of the normal. It's an abnormal rate. And then with that, we can say, okay, that doesn't look right, alert us through observability tools, again, around the cloud native ecosystem, Prometheus Grafana. And then we're going to get insight into that before the bang happens, hopefully before the bang. >> So that's an interesting when we talk about adjacencies and moving into this area of security- >> We're talking to Zeus about that too. >> Exactly. That's that sort of creep where you can actually add value. It's interesting. >> So, okay. So we talked about shift left, get that, and then expanded ecosystem, industry leading technologies. By the way, one of them is the Red Hat Marketplace. And I think, I heard Anton's... Anton was amazing. He is the head of product management at Veeam. Is been to every VeeamON. He's got family in Ukraine. He's based in Switzerland. >> Yeah. >> But he chose not to come here because he's obviously supporting, you know, the carnage that's going on in Ukraine. But anyway, I think he said the Red Hat team is actually in Ukraine developing, you know, while the bombs are dropping. That's amazing. But anyway, back to our interview here, expanded ecosystem, Red Hat, SUSE with Rancher, they've got some momentum. vSphere with Tanzu, they're in the game. Talk about that ecosystem and its importance. >> Yeah, and I think, and it goes back to your point around the CLI, right? Is that it feels like the next stage of Kubernetes is going to be very much focused towards the operator or the operations team. The CIS admin of today is going to have to look after that. And at the moment it's all very command line, it's all CLI driven. And I think the marketplace is OpenShift, being our biggest foothold around our customer base, is definitely around OpenShift. But things like, obviously we are a longstanding alliance partner with VMware as well. So their Tanzu operations actually there's support for TKGS, so vSphere Tanzu grid services is another part of the big release of 5.0. But all three of those and the common marketplace gives us a UI, gives us a way of being able to see and visualize that rather than having to go and hunt down the commands and get our information through some- >> Oh, some people are going to be unhappy about that. >> Yeah. >> But I contend the human eye has evolved to see in color for a very good reason. So I want to see things in red, yellow, and green at times. >> There you go, yeah. >> So when we hear a company like Veeam talk about, look we have no platform agenda, we don't care which cloud it's in. We don't care if it's on-prem or Google Azure, AWS. We had Wasabi on, we have... Great, they got an S3 compatible, you know, target, and others as well. When we hear them, companies like you, talk about that consistent experience, single pane of glass that you're skeptical of, maybe cause it's technically challenging, one of the things, we call it super cloud, right, that's come up. Danny and I were riffing on that the other day and we'll do that more this afternoon. But it brings up something that we were talking about with Zeus, Dave, which is the edge, right? And it seems like Kubernetes, and we think about OpenShift. >> Yeah. >> We were there last week at Red Hat Summit. It's like 50% of the conversation, if not more, was the edge. Right, and really true edge, worst cases, use cases. Two weeks ago we were at Dell Tech, there was a lot of edge talk, but it was retail stores, like Lowe's. Okay, that's kind of near edge, but the far edge, we're talking space, right? So seems like Kubernetes fits there and OpenShift, you know, particularly, as well as some of the others that we mentioned. What about edge? How much of what you're doing with container data protection do you see as informing you about the edge opportunity? Are you seeing any patterns there? Nobody's really talking about it in data protection yet. >> So yeah, large scale numbers of these very small clusters that are out there on farms or in wind turbines, and that is definitely something that is being spoken about. There's not much mention actually in this 5.0 release because we actually support things like K3s,(indistinct), that all came in 4.5, but I think, to your first point as well, David, is that, look, we don't really care what that Kubernetes distribution is. So you've got K3s lightweight Kubernetes distribution, we support it, because it uses the same native Kubernetes APIs, and we get deployed inside of that. I think where we've got these large scale and large numbers of edge deployments of Kubernetes and that you require potentially some data management down there, and they might want to send everything into a centralized location or a more centralized location than a farm shed out in the country. I think we're going to see a big number of that. But then we also have our multi cluster dashboard that gives us the ability to centralize all of the control plane. So we don't have to go into each individual K10 deployment to manage those policies. We can have one big centralized management multi cluster dashboard, and we can set global policies there. So if you're running a database and maybe it's the same one across all of your different edge locations, where you could just set one policy to say I want to protect that data on an hourly basis, a daily basis, whatever that needs to be, rather than having to go into each individual one. >> And then send it back to that central repository. So that's the model that you see, you don't see the opportunity, at least at this point in time, of actually persisting it at the edge? >> So I think it depends. I think we see both, but again, that's the footprint. And maybe like you mentioned about up in space having a Kubernetes cluster up there. You don't really want to be sending up a NAS device or a storage device, right, to have to sit alongside it. So it's probably, but then equally, what's the art of the possible to get that back down to our planet, like as part of a consistent copy of data? >> Or even a farm or other remote locations. The question is, I mean, EVs, you know, we believe there's going to be tons of data, we just don't.. You think about Tesla as a use case, they don't persist a ton of their data. Maybe if a deer runs across, you know, the front of the car, oh, persist that, send that back to the cloud. >> I don't want anyone knowing my Tesla data. I'll tell you that right now. (all laughing) >> Well, there you go, that one too. All right, well, that's future discussion, we're still trying to squint through those patterns. I got so many questions for you, Michael, but we got to go. Thanks so much for coming to theCUBE. >> Always. >> Great job on the keynote today and good luck. >> Thank you. Thanks for having me. >> All right, keep it right there. We got a ton of product talk today. As I said, Danny Allan's coming back, we got the ecosystem coming, a bunch of the cloud providers. We have, well, iland was up on stage. They were just recently acquired by 11:11 Systems. They were an example today of a cloud service provider. We're going to unpack it all here on theCUBE at VeeamON 2022 from Las Vegas at the Aria. Keep it right there. (calm music)

>> Announcer: From around the globe, it's theCUBE, with digital coverage at Mirantis Launchpad 2020, brought to you by Mirantis. >> Welcome back. And I'm Stu Miniman, and this is theCUBE's coverage of Mirantis Launchpad 2020. Of course we're spending a lot of time talking about Kubernetes. We're going to be digging in talking about some of the important developer tooling that Mirantis is helping to proliferate in the market, solve some real important challenges in the space. So happy to welcome to the program Miska Kaipiainen. He is the senior director of engineering with Mirantis. Miska, thanks so much for joining us. Welcome to theCUBE. >> Thank you so much. >> All right, so Miska, I notice you've got on the Kontena sweatshirt. You were the founder of the company, did some tools. One of the tools that you and your team helped create was Lens. You and your team joined Mirantis, and recently Lens was pulled in. So maybe if you could just give us a little bit about your background. You do some coding yourself, the team that you have there, and let's tee up the conversation, 'cause it's that Lens piece that we're going to spend a bunch of time talking about. >> Yeah, so the background of what we did, basically Kontena, we started back in 2015, and we a the focus on creating technologies around the container orchestration technologies to basically to make developer tooling that are very easy to use for the developers. So during the years at Kontena, we did many different types of products, and maybe the most interesting product that we created was Lens. And now really when we joined Mirantis in January this year, so we have been able to work on Lens, and actually, since the Lens was made open source, fully open source in March this year, so it's been really kind of picking up, and now Mirantis acquired the whole technology, so we can really start investing even more in the development. >> All right, so let's talk specifically about Lens. As I teed up at the beginning, we're talking about managing multiple clusters. Gosh, and I think back to 2015. It was early on. Most people were still learning about Docker, Docker swarms, Kubernetes, Mesos. There were a lot of fights over how orchestration would be done. A little bit different discussion about what developers were doing, how they scaled out configurations, how they manage those. So help us understand kind of that core, what Lens does, and how the product has matured and expanded over those last five years. >> Yeah, so over the last five years, so originally Lens was developed for our internal product. So like Mesosphere and Docker, and they all have their own orchestration technologies even before Kubernetes. And we also started working on our own orchestration technology. And I'm a huge believer in when we are dealing with very complex technologies, so if you can visualize it and make it kind of more interesting to look at, so it will kind of help with the adoption, and it's kind of more acceptable to the market. And that's why we started doing Lens. And over the years, we turned Lens to work with Kubernetes environments, and nowadays really Lens is very much loved by the Kubernetes developers, who are those people who need to deal with the Kubernetes clusters on a daily basis. So they are not necessarily those ops people who are creating those clusters , but they are the people who actually use those clusters. >> Well, of course that that general adoption is something that, you know, super important. You have some stats you can share on, you talk about the love of developers. You said it's open source, it's available on GitHub, but how many people are using it? What are some of those usage stats? >> Yeah, so it was interesting. So when we released Lens open source under MIT license in March, so since then we have been getting, in half a year, we have been getting 8,000 stargazers on GitHub. That is kind of mind-blowing because we try to create projects and trying to create anything that would get a lot of traction in the past, but truly, it totally happened just now after years of trying. So it has been since the last six months, it's been just amazing the adopts and we have more than 50,000 users using Lens and the retention is great. People keep on coming back. So yeah, the numbers look very, very good for Lens, and we are just getting started. >> Yeah, well, it's something that this community definitely is huge growth, and anybody in this space remembers just the huge adoption of Docker, which of course the enterprise piece of Docker is now part of Mirantis. Inside those developers, help us understand a little bit more, what is it that has them really not only looking at the GitHubs, starring it, as you said, they're the stargazers. It's like a favorite, for those that aren't in the system. I've had a chance to look at some of the demos, and it seems rather straightforward. But if you could, just in your words, explain what it is that it solves for developers that otherwise they either had to do themselves or they had to cobble together a lot of different tools. We know developers out there. The wonderful thing is there's no shortage of tools to choose from. It's about the right tool that can do the right thing. >> Absolutely, absolutely. So Lens, we are calling it IDE for a reason. So we are talking about IDE for Kubernetes developers. And what does it mean actually is that we are taking all those necessary tools and technologies and packaging them, integrating them seamlessly together for the purpose of making it more easy for developers to deploy, operate, observe, inspect their workloads that are running on Kubernetes clusters. And I think the main benefits that Lens will provide for these developers is that if you're a newcomer in the Kubernetes ecosystem, so Lens gives you a very easy way to learn Kubernetes because it's so visual. And for more experienced users, it just radically improves the, let's say the speed of business and the way how you can perform things with your clusters. >> So one of the pieces that that Lens does is that multi-cluster management. So first of all, I believe, as you said, it's open source and can work with, is it any certified Kubernetes out there, whether it be from the public cloud, companies like VMware and Red Hat that have Kubernetes, of course, Mirantis has Kubernetes, too. And secondly, I think you teased out a little bit, but help help us understand a little bit. Multi-cluster management is something that the big players, you hear Azure and Google Cloud talking about how they look at managing not only other environments, but oh yeah, we can have other clusters and we can help you manage it. I think that's more on the ops side of things, as opposed to, as you said, this is really a developer tool set. >> Yeah, so of course, all the organizations, they want to most likely have some sort of centralized system where they can manage multiple clusters, and some companies provide systems for on-premises, and some public cloud vendors, they provide systems for provisioning those clusters on their own own systems. And then we have also the kind of multicloud management systems. Most of these technologies, they are really designed for the operations side, so how the IT administrations can manage these multiple clusters. So now if you look at the situation from the developer's perspective, they are now given access to certain number of clusters from different environments. And by the way, some of these clusters are also running on their local development environments on their laptops. So what Lens is doing is basically provides a unified user experience across all these clusters no matter what is the flavor of the Kubernetes. It can be the Minikube. It can be from AKS. It can be Mirantis Enterprise, Docker Enterprise offering, or whatever. So it kind of brings them all together and makes it very easy to navigate and go around and do your work. >> Yeah, well, that's, the promise of Kubernetes isn't that it just levels the playing field amongst everything. As I've talked to the founders of Kubernetes, people like Joe Beda said it's not a silver bullet. It's a thin layer. But that skillset is what's so important because there is a lot of difference between every platform they deal with. So as a developer, it's nice to have some tools that I can work across those environments. From a developer standpoint, I think it's on Windows, Linux, Mac, works across those environment. What do you hear from your customers? How are they using it? Is this something that they're like, oh hey, I can go make an adjustment on my mobile when I'm not necessarily in the office? Are we not quite there yet? >> Actually, it's kind of funny, because sometimes we hear these type of requests that we would like to have a mobile app version of Lens. I don't know how that would actually work in practice. So we haven't been doing anything on that front yet. I think still the most common use case is that developers, they are given access to clusters from somewhere and they are just desperately trying to find a kind of convenient way how to navigate around these different clusters and how to manage their workloads. And I think Lens is hitting the sweet spot in there with the ease of use. >> All right, so let me understand. It's been open sourced, yet Mirantis owns it. Is there a service or support? Does this tie into other products in the Mirantis portfolio? How do people get it? What do they need to, if anything, pay for it? And help us understand how this fits into the broader Mirantis story. >> Yes, so it's still kind of early days, so we just kind of announced that Lens is now part of Mirantis, let's say portfolio. So I must say that still the kind of main focus for us is around improving Lens and making it better for developers. So that's much more important than trying to think about the ways how potentially we could monetize this. So, but there are plans going ahead, going around for different ways how we can better support bigger enterprises who want to start using Lens in a big scale. >> Well, yeah, that's so important. Of course, developers, we need to lower the friction, help them adopt things fast. Miska, just get your general viewpoint, though. One of the big value propositions that Mirantis has is of course allowing enterprises to take advantage of these new types of solutions, especially today around Kubernetes. So help us understand from your standpoint the philosophy of what your team's helping to build and the customer engagements that you're having. >> Yes, so Mirantis, of course, has a broad portfolio of products, and many of those products, of course, are related to Kubernetes. And so we have many products which I'm also one of the leading development efforts around those. So some of the products are related to how to manage image repositories and registries. Some of them are related to how to handle the helm charts, which has basically become the defacto packaging format for Kubernetes applications. And we are kind of trying to bring all these different products and technologies together in a way that make it even more easy for developers then to access through Lens. So it's still a little bit work in progress, of course, since the Lens ecosystem is quite new, but we are on track there trying to make a beautiful one kind of experience for our customers. >> All right, well, final question I have for you. As you said, it's new there, but it gives a little taste as to feedback you're getting from the community. Anything we should be looking at on kind of the near to mid-term road map when it comes to Lens. >> Oh yeah, so we are just barely scratching the surface of the potential on what we can do with Lens. So one of the big features that we will be releasing still during this year in a couple of months time is going to be the extension API, which will allow all these cloud-native technology ecosystem vendors to bring their own technologies easily available and accessible through Lens. So it is possible for third parties to extend the user interface with their own kind of unique features and visualizations. And we are already actively working with certain partners to integrate their technologies through this extension API. So that's going to be huge. It's going to be game-changer. >> Well, the great thing about an open source project is people can go out, they can grab it now, they can give feedback, participate in the community. Miska, thank you so much for joining us and great to chat. >> Thank you for having me. Thank you. >> All right, stay with us for more coverage of Mirantis Launchpad 2020. I'm Stu Miniman and thank you for watching theCUBE. (bright music)

(upbeat music) >> Announcer: Live from San Diego, California, it's theCUBE, covering KubeCon and CloudNativeCon. Brought to you by Red Hat, the Cloud Native Computing Foundation, and its ecosystem partners. >> Welcome back, this is theCUBE's coverage of KubeCon, CloudNativeCon 2019. And a special segment, we're actually going to doing our 2020 predictions. I am Stu Miniman, joining me, my two co-hosts of the week. To my left is Justin Warren, who I believe's been to, you went to the first one? >> I've been to all four, yeah. >> All four of the North America shows. >> Yep. >> I personally have been now to three of the North American, as well as one in the Barcelona. And we have a first time KubeConner, but long time host of theCUBE and things, John Troyer to my right. Gentlemen, thanks so much for joining us. So first thing, the rapid fire. 12,000 in attendance. Last year 8,000, the year before 4,000. So, my math says that it will be 16,000 when we come next year to beautiful November in Boston, Massachusetts, which I can drive to. We've had snow in Austin, rain in San Diego. So, I'm predicting 60 to 70 degree weather in Boston, 'cause that never happens in Boston. Number of attendees next year, Justin? >> Well, it was doubling and now they have dropped it to 50%, so I reckon another 50%, I'll reckon 18 to 20,000. >> Stu: Oh, John? >> Yeah, I'll go higher. That many plus one. >> Okay, I feel like we'll do, I bet $1, $1. But, okay-- >> We have not hit peak Kubernetes yet. >> No. >> We definitely have not hit peak Kubernetes. One of the things, I keep looking for the theme of the show, and one of the things, we've been talking in some of the segments, is there needs to be simplification. When we talk about where we're at with cloud adoption, when we talk about some of these environments, there is a broad ecosystem. So, there needs to be some winnowing down of the technologies. We've seen some areas where things like MicroK8s and K3s to be able to be able to put Kubernetes at the edge. It's not that, that will replace Kubernetes, but things need to get simpler in some environments. Justin, I'll throw it to you first. Is simplification the theme of the show, is there something else that's grabbing you? >> The theme for me is that the money has arrived. We saw a little bit of that last year but this year it is definitely just the number of sponsors that we have here, the number of startups that we have here, the ecosystem, the number of parties, the VCs are here. This feels like a lot of other technology shows that we've been to before in their hay day. We are right here in the hay day of Kubernetes. So, I can see it getting bigger. Will there be consolidation? Yes, I think there will. But I think that this is going to broaden out further first. I don't think that we're quite at the point where things need to start collapsing in. I think we're still going to be exploring all the different options that we have. I think the theme is simplification, yes, I agree. But it's now going to be people trying to solve that problem by creating these higher-level services, managed-Kubernetes offerings. A lot of the different component projects that are there, we're going to see a lot of options where they try to manage that for you and make it easier to consume. But there will be several different attempts at that and not all of them are going to survive. >> Yeah, I'll go with you. Simplification's going to be an issue. Has to happen, we saw a lot of different stacks here at the show, if you go out on the show floor. A lot of people are trying to give you a generic platform. A general-purpose platform, maybe it has its own opinionated view of networking, or storage, or management, or security. But at the end of the day we need things on top of the platform. So, I'm hoping next year we see more things on top of the platform, more applications. We saw some big data applications this year. But people are still building engines and I want them to build cars, because not everybody can build the engine. >> Justin: Yes! >> Well, and actually, Justin, a question for you is when we talk about Kubernetes, there's so many people I interview here and they're like, "Well, no, "we know how to build it better than others "and when you want to go across all environments "we should do it." Is that, are we still going to see that for awhile? Or, can we all hold hands, and talk about open source and be able to just manage across all of these environments? >> Well, one of the key founding principles of Kubernetes is that you can operate it the same everywhere. If it's certified Kubernetes, it should function the same, no matter who's build of it it is. So, that just provides us a common platform that we then build on top of. So, I think the main differentiation's going to be on things like the tooling and the services that allow you to operate that base layer of Kubernetes. But that base layer of Kubernetes is about interesting as Ethernet. It's extremely pluggable and it's just ubiquitous, but no one really cares which brand of Ethernet you happen to be giving me. I care about all the stuff that I run on it. And that's what I think that we're going to see a lot more, I'm with you, John. We're going to see a lot more of those services. I'm seeing a bunch of startups at this show that are starting on that journey, they're providing a lot of things like database services, very highly-tuned monitoring and measurement telemetry systems. There's a big push to make sure that there is a certain amount of interoperability between these different services. Things like having open telemetry be the standard for sending telemetry information around. Because everyone knows that if we all build to Ethernet we're all going to have a much better time of it, than if we all start trying to come up with our own version of it and call it Banyan VINES, and FidoNet, and God knows what. >> Okay, I'm glad you brought up the example of Ethernet. First of all, I have no problem watching a 45-minute discussion of what 400 Gig's going to look like, and the challenge and the opportunities. And if you are talking Ethernet in someone's data center, for the most part they're going to run that on a single vendor because while there is interoperability, it's not until I go to the Internet, because layer two, I want to keep it single vendor, when I go layer three I want to do that. Is that, maybe it's not the best analogy but Kubernetes-- >> No, I think that's reasonable. And if you're trying to operate something across different environments then it's much easier if the two environments can talk to each other. Simple example that people tend to forget about is M&A. If one company goes and buys another one and I run Banyan VINES and you run, I don't know, FinLand or something, then we can't talk to each other, and integrating those two companies becomes impossible. But at least if we both have, you might have Juniper, I might have Cicso, those two network sets can still talk to each other. You might be running, I don't know ,Mesosphere, and someone else might be running Mirantis or Rantia, and that's their system for operating Kubernetes. Turns out, actually if you can operate it much the same, one of you can decide, you know what, we're going to operate everything with Rantia, 'cause we think that that's going to be the best thing for the holistic company. You may keep them separate. As long as you get the same outcome then it doesn't really matter. >> Yeah, that's why I think we aren't yet at peak Kubernetes. Those Kubernetes skills that are in high demand from a job market that people are being upskilled on, they're actually still going to be useful. Now, these stacks that these opinions that people are doing. I mean, they want us to talk about people over projects, right? That's a great philosophy, this is a very friendly community, it's very open source. But, cynically, I think, and sometimes people swap your company T-shirt for your project T-shirt that your company is the one that's behind. And that's kind of a, that's a little bit of a bait and switch. Yes, it's an open source stack. Yes, all the major vendors have open source, 100% open source stacks around Kubernetes. But they're all with different projects and they all pick their own projects. So, I think that is yet to be resolved. >> Well, it's interesting 'cause the thing that I heard is it used to be open source was something that people contribute to it. Now, the majority of people that contribute to open source do it as part of their job. So, there is some of that. Yes, I'm paid by company X, but my job is to participate in the community. There is a large company that got bought by $34 billion. They have a lot of contributors out there. Their job is open source, they are on those projects, they might switch from one project to another. We had Kelsey Hightower on today, he's like, "Hey, right, "but we need to think of people above project. "It's okay for them to move from one to the other "between projects or between companies." But, right, it is very much often companies that are behind the scenes and pushing people and dollars into these projects. One thing I like about the CNCF here is we do have, there's 129 end-user companies participating here, so we've reached a certain maturity level that they are driving it, not just companies driving it for the dollars. So, I guess the thing I want to ask though is, there's so many companies here, we started off the conversation this week, John, talking about Docker. And the cautionary tale of how many companies, when I asked, "What is your business model, what do you do?" Is, I created some cool new project. What does that mean? You look at the business model. You live right with Silicon Valley there. What are you seeing as you look forward? What do you expecting to see consistently? >> Oh sure, I mean, half the logos will be gone but they'll be swapped out for other logos, so that's all fine, right? If you have a point solution, as I was kind of pointing out, things are kind of stackifying. So, things need to consolidate from a buyer's perspective. A lot of the sessions here were about custom projects that people did, either in-house or for a customer. So, I think that's okay, that's the natural, it's the natural Cambrian explosion and then die off. >> Yep, creative destruction. (John laughing) That's the general point of how we do things. There's a lot of things that are basically a feature and you can't really build a company behind a feature. They're hoping that they will find some sort of pathway to money, we've seen some big acquisitions where they didn't really find a good route to money. That's fine, people will figure that out. And how you fund this development, Stu, I mean that's the perennial problem. At the moment it's possibly not the perfect solution but it's a pretty good one, in that we have developers are employed by a company that pays them to develop open source software. So, anyone can go and grab that software and then use it. So, we don't actually really depend on that company sticking around. >> And enterprise sales, it's still very expensive to have even a small booth here, and three or four people and nice T-shirts, and all of your swag, and you flew them here. And fly them all around the country to company after company, conference room after conference room. That is an expensive model to sell things. I mean, you need to have a fair amount of revenue. >> All right, so, Justin, a lot of progress, a lot of projects. >> Yeah. >> What's missing? Look out for 2020, is there an area or a space that needs to mature or needs work? What's your advice for this ecosystem? >> Well, for me it's all about the data. So, we've seen a lot of evolution in stateful sets and being able to manage state-based data within the Kubernetes ecosystem, a lot of progress on that, but there's still a long, long, long way to go. Also, just on the general operational tooling. So, the things that we are used to and have taken for granted in other traditional, like vSphere, or we've come from the VMware ecosystem. Simple things like higher availability. So, I need my data to always be available and I need to be able to have this managed. There's a lot of stuff in there but there's still a lot more stuff that needs to happen. Service mesh and that service discovery and making that easy enough for normal mortal humans to deal with, that still really isn't there. You kind of have to be a bit of a super genius to configure that and get it working and operating. So, there's still a lot of very hard work on these quite hard problems, to then make it look simple. >> Yeah, so, John, the one I want to throw to you is Dan Kohn came out on the keynote stage yesterday and he said, "Kubernetes has crossed the chasm, "yet most enterprises are still worried "about software failure." We know many people that are coming in new and shell-shocked when they come to look. What does the industry as a whole and this ecosystem, specifically, need to do to make sure that we don't come a year from now and say, "Wow, things slowed down "because we kind of couldn't get "the vast majority of people on board?" >> Well, I mean, we're going back to, I guess then the same thing, things have to be simpler. In times of uncertainty people either stop or they go to a trusted provider. There is, probably, although there's a high value on Kubernetes skills right now, that also means there's not enough folks. So, if you can't get the engineers. That was a problem in previous generations of some of these stacks, in that if you couldn't get enough engineers, or if the stack, if everybody had their own snowflake version of it and the skills were not transferable you could not move forward. So, I'm hoping we'll see more managed service providers. I'm hoping that we'll see more startups and services built on top of these existing infrastructures, I think we're seeing more of those. I see a lot of stuff in the operations space and kind of the SRE space, the incident management space. Kind of all the tooling you'll need to actually run these things in day two and beyond. And then, hopefully, the industry keeps pounding on digital transformation and process transformation. One project at a time, you start with one, you start small, you start tooling, you start tooling up, you get some small things under your belt and start to learn. But that's enterprise timeline. So, at a certain speed. >> All right, last thing, any aha moments, surprises, cool things as you've been going around the show? Justin? >> Oh, just walking into the show surprised me. Just how big it has gotten and how much energy there is here. It's amazing to me and I can just only see it getting bigger and, I hope, better. I am surprised by the reaction from people who haven't come into the Kubernetes ecosystem, I think. There's still a lot of people out there for whom this is a big surprise. That it's as big a show as this is, there are lots and lots of people out there who can't actually spell Kubernetes. So, there's a lot of work for us to go and do to figure out how we get those people to come into this ecosystem in a way that doesn't shock them and scare them away. >> Yeah, absolutely. Welcome to the party, those of you that had been joined. John? >> Hey, the thing that surprised me was this is both a multicloud show and a non-cloud show. This is the only show where people working in multiple public clouds can come together. So, that's one of the systemic forces causing it to grow. On the other hand, this is not a public cloud-only show. Over and over again, we talk to people here on theCUBE, I talk to people on the show floor, and most of their workloads, or many of their workloads, are on-premises, right? Kubernetes is fully functional and fully up to speed in private cloud, in people's data centers because it is useful. And they're starting to do that process tooling and process re-engineering, even on-site. And then they may be using a portfolio of different clouds. So, I think that was one of the surprising things to me is this was not 100% public cloud show. >> Yeah, and a little bit of caution I'll give there is we want to make sure we don't become complacent and say, oh, well, we could just kind of slide in what we were doing before and not make some change because the driver here, we've been talking about for decades now, was really kind of that application modernization. And Kubernetes and this whole, it is about cloud-native. It's not the Kubernetes, it's the cloud-native piece. >> You know what I didn't hear? I did not hear putting legacy apps on Kubernetes as much this year. Much quieter this year. >> So, and I'll just say, I'll highlight, we did an interview yesterday with the American Red Cross. Tech For Good, it's something that we've been highlighting, John, for especially helping lead the charge and make sure we highlight that. The Microsoft show, they very much talked about that this year. American Red Cross is saying, hey, we always want your dollars but we'd also love your skillset. So, if this community, and specifically Kubernetes, cloud-native ecosystem makes it easier. There's common tooling, something that I've been hearing a lot this year is when I go through that modernization I can hire the next-generation workforce. There's too many of those, oh, I'm doing it the old way. If I don't have somebody with 30 or 40 years experience in the industry, you won't understand our systems and we need that next generation of workforce to be able to get involved. So, love future jobs, Tech For Good, all good things. This community's always been strong on diversity and inclusion. And so, I guess final word I'll say, big shout-out to, of course, the CNCF, this event, they have a large menagerie that they need to take in here and manage, and they're doing a good job. There's always things to work on. They are listening and open. We have really appreciated the partnership. A huge shout-out, of course, to our sponsors that make it possible for us to do this. So, for Justin Warren, for John Troyer, I'm Stu Miniman, thanks so much. We definitely are excited for one more day. Tomorrow, as well as next year in 2020, Amsterdam and Boston. Please reach out always if you have any questions. And thank you so much for watching theCUBE. (upbeat music)

>> Announcer: Live from San Diego, California, it's theCUBE. Covering KubeCon and CloudNativeCon. Brought to you by Red Hat, the Cloud Native Computing Foundation and its ecosystem partners. >> Welcome back, I'm Stu Miniman and my Co-host is John Troyer. And you're watching theCUBE here in day two of our coverage of KubeCon and CloudNativeCon. And joining me is Tobi Knaup who is the co-founder and CTO of D2iQ. See what I did there, Tobi? >> That's right, I love it. >> Alright. So Tobi, first of all, KubeCon, of course D2iQ, last year when we were here it was Mesosphere, so give us a little bit, you've been to lots of customer meetings, 12,000 people in attendance, tell us a little bit about the energy and how your team's finding the show so far. >> Yeah, obviously biggest KubeCon so far and it's just amazing how far this community has come, how it's grown. How many projects are part of it now, how many vendors here, too. You know two expo halls with different booths and you know, I think it just shows how important this community, this ecosystem is. When customers come to us and say they want to work with Kubernetes the community's why they're really doing it. >> Yeah, it is a great community, great vibe for people that aren't already in it. It's easy to get started, but one of the big themes we're hearing here is simplicity, how to make it easier to get going and once they get going, what happens after day one? That's some of the rebranded pieces. So for our audience, explain a little bit, why the rebrand focus of the company, Day 2 operations, absolutely something that I hear a lot of discussion on and why is your team specifically well positioned for that environment. >> No absolutely, so the rebrand we did because obviously our old company named Mesosphere has Mesos in it. That's the open source product we started with. But we've been doing a lot more than that actually for many years, right? We help customers run Apache Kafka and Spark and Cassandra. We've been doing a lot with Kubernetes also for some time now and even more so now. So having one particular technology in the company name was holding us back, right. People just put us in that box but we're doing so much more. So that was the reason for the rebrand and so, we wanted a name that doesn't have a particular technology in it and so we're looking for what is really expressed, what we do, what we help our customers with? And we've always been focused on Day 2 operations, so everything that happens after the initial install. How do you monitor things properly, upgrade them and so on? So that's why we loved that Day 2 concept. And then the IQ really stands for a couple of things. First of all we try to put a lot of automation into our products, so make those products smart to help our customers. But more importantly too, when we look at the ecosystem as a whole, where are most customers at, where are most companies at. Well, they're still early in their cloud-native journey and they need to get up to speed, they need to get smart about cloud-native and about Day 2 operations and so that's the IQ piece. We want to help our customers become smart about this space, get educated and then learn to do cloud-native. >> So Tobi, one of the things that fascinates me about the Kubernetes ecosystem is that people bring stuff to the table. Kubernetes is here, that's evolving. Other companies, entities, projects are coming to the table with other open source concepts and solving problems that they have in the field. At D2iQ, when you were Mesosphere, you have years of experience dealing with production issues, scaling management, all these sort of really, really fascinating cloud-native problems, so you bring a lot of experience to the table. So one of the projects that you are now working on and working with your customers and partners and the bigger ecosystem on is a way of approaching operators. The concept of bringing this kind of lifecycle automation to applications and helping with all these Day 2 problems. Can you talk a little about so KUDO is the name of the framework, I guess. Can you talk a little bit about that and how you're bringing that here to sit at the table and what some people's experiences with that are and what they are using it for? >> Absolutely, yeah, so these data services, these stapler workloads like Kafka, Cassandra and Spark, that's been in our DNA for a very long time. In fact, a little known fact, Apache Spark was originally a demo application for Apache Mesos. That's how it started originally. Obviously, it took off. So, we've been doing that since even before we were a company. And we've been helping our customers on top of Mesos with running these complex data stacks and there's some equivalent of operators on top of Mesos called frameworks. So we've been building these frameworks and we realized it's a little too hard to build these things. We typically had to write thousands of lines of code, 10, 20,000 sometimes and it took too long. So what we actually did on Mesos many years ago is we extracted the common patterns from those frameworks and built it into a library and made it so you can actually build a framework with just configuration, with just YAML, so it's a language that allows you to essentially sequence your operations into phases and steps. kind of like you would write a run book that a human operator takes and then goes through, right? So when we looked at the Kubernetes Operator space, we saw some of those same challenges that we had faced years ago. Building a Kubernetes Operator requires to write a lot of code. Not every company has Go programmers, people that are skilled enough in Kubernetes that they can write an operator. And more importantly too, once you write those 10,000 lines of code or more, you also have to maintain it. You have to keep up with API changes and so, a lot of folks we talked to at KubeCon last year and to customers, said it's just too hard to build operators. The other side of that too, is folks said it's a little too hard to use those operators too because very common use cases, you build a data pipeline. That means you'll be using multiple different operators, say Kafka, Cassandra and Spark. So if those all have different APIs, that's pretty hard to manage. So we wanted to simplify that. We wanted to create an alternative way for building operators that doesn't require you to learn Go, doesn't require you to write code, it works with just this orchestration language that KUDO offers and then for the KUDO users, the API is the same across these different operators. It has a plugin for Kube Cuddle, so you can interface with all the different operators through that. So yeah, simplicity and a great developer experience are the keys here. >> Tobi, I was wondering maybe you bring us inside the personas you target with this type of solution. As we've seen the maturation of this space, first couple of years I came, it felt very infrastructure heavy. The last year or two, there's more of the AppDev discussion there. They don't always speak the same languages. Looks like you've got some tooling here to help simplify that environment and make it easier because of course your application developers don't want to worry about that stuff. That's the promise of things like serverless, or just we're going to take care of that and stats and whatnot, so where specifically do you target and what are you hearing from customers as to how they're sorting through these organizational changes? >> Yeah, so I think ultimately, everybody kind of wants a platform as a service in some way, right? If you're building an app for your business, you don't want to think about, how do I provision this database, how to do that? And obviously, I can go to a public cloud and I can use all those public cloud services but what a lot of folks are doing now is they're running on various different types of infrastructure. They're running on multiple public clouds. They're running on the Edge. We work with a lot of customers that have a need to deploy these data services, these operators in Edge locations, on the manufacturing floor in a factory, for instance. Or on a cruise ship, that's one company we're working with. So, how do you bring this API-driven deployment of these services to all these different types of locations? And so that's what we try to achieve with KUDO for the data services and then with our other products too, like Kommander, which is a multi-cluster control plane. It's about when organizations have all these different clusters. And very typically they get into the dozens or even hundreds of clusters fast. How do you then manage that? How do you apply configuration consistently across these clusters? Manage your secrets and RBAC rules and things like that? So those are all the Day 2 things that we try to help customers with. There's a little bit of a tension there sometimes, right? Because the great thing about Kubernetes is it's great for developers. It has a nice API, people love the API. People are very quick to adopt it, right? They try it out on their laptop, they setup their first cluster. That typically goes very fast and they very quickly have their first app running. So it happens organically, right? But every large organization also has a need to put the right governance in place, right? How I keep those clusters secure? How do I meet my regulatory requirements? How do I make sure I can upgrade those clusters fast, if I need to fix a security issue and so on? So there's that tension between the governance, the central IT and what the developers want to do. We try to strike a balance there with our products to give developers the agility that cloud-native promises but at the same time, give the IT folks the right controls so they can meet their requirements. >> Tobi, here at the show this year, obviously bigger and a lot more folks at different parts of their cloud-native journey. Again, with the experience you all have, as you talk to folks this year, obviously people are clearly in production. You talk about some of the governance issues, is there anything you can say about either what you think is going to make for a successful partnership with you and a successful customer? What qualities do you need to have by the time you're growing up in production and then also as they're making choices here, what should the end users be looking at? >> Right, so one of the things we realized over the years is actually cloud-native is a journey. Every organization is somewhere else on that journey. And you said partnership, I think that's the key word here. We want to partner with our customers because we realize that this stuff is complicated, right? And it's actually for us as a company, our journey has been kind of interesting because we started at this large scale spot, right? Before we were even a company, we were running these clusters with tens of thousands of notes. These large online services at Twitter and other companies, that's where we started and that's where our first product kind of landed. It's at that large scale is what we're known for but most organizations out there are much earlier in their journey to cloud-native. As so, what we realized is that we really need to partner with folks to even at the very first steps, where they're just getting educated about this space, right? What are containers? How are they different from VMs? What is this cluster management thing, right? How does this all fit together? So we try to hold our customers' hands, catch them where they are. Besides all of the software that we're building, we also offer trainings for example. And so we just try to have the conversation with the customer. Figure out what their needs are, whether that's training, whether that's services or different products. And the different products that come together in our Kubernetes product line, they're really designed to meet the customer at these different stages. There's Konway, that's our Kubernetes distribution, get your first project up and running. Then once you get a little bit more sophisticated, you probably want to do CI/CD. So we have an upcoming product for that, it's called Dispatch. Pretty excited about it. The data services with KUDO. Folks typically add that next and then very quickly you have these dozens of hundreds of clusters. Now, you need Kommander, right? So we try to fit that all together. Meet the customer where they are and I think education is a big piece of that. >> All right, Tobi, we want to give you the final word. You talked about some of the things coming out here, so just give us your viewpoint of the ecosystem broader as to what next things need to be done to help even further the journey that we're all on? >> Yeah, I think in terms of next things, there's a lot of interest around operators. Well, operators as the implementation but really what's happening is, people are running more and more different workloads on top of Kubernetes, right? And I think that's where a lot of the work is going to happen over the next year. There's some discussions in the CNCF now even. What is an operator? How do we define that? Is it something fairly broad? Is it something fairly specific? But Kubernetes is definitely the factor standard for doing cloud-native and people are putting it in a lot of different environments. They're putting it in Edge locations. So I think we need to figure out how do you have a sane sort of development workflow for these types of deployments? How do you define an application that might actually run on multiple different clusters? So I think there's going to be a lot of talk. Operators obviously, but also on the developers side, in a layer above Kubernetes, right? How can I just define my application in a way where I say maybe just run this thing at a highly available way on two different cloud providers, instead of saying specifically it needs to go here, it needs to go there? Or deploy this thing in a follow the sun model or whatever that is. So I think that's where a lot of the conversations are going to happen, is that level above. >> All right well Tobi, appreciate the updates. Congratulations on the progress and definitely look forward to catching more from you and D2iQ team in the near future. >> Thank you very much for having me. >> All right, for John Troyer, I'm Stu Miniman, lots more to come. Thanks for watching theCUBE. (light music)

>> Narrator: Live from San Diego, California, it's theCUBE covering KubeCon and CloudNativeCon. Brought to you by Red Hat, the CloudNative Computing Foundation and its ecosystem partners. >> Docker, Docker, Docker. No, you're in the right place. This is KubeCon CloudNativeCon 2019 here in San Diego. I'm Stu Miniman kicking off three days of live, wall to wall coverage. My co-host for most of the week this week is John Troyer. Justin Warren's also in the house. He'll be hosting for me. And a big shout out to John Furrier who's back at the corporate ranch in Palo Alto keeping an eye on all the CloudNative stuff with us. The reason that I actually mentioned Docker is because it is the first thing that is on our lips this week. Just this week, Docker, which is the company that, if it wasn't for Docker, we wouldn't have 12,500 people here at this event. Really democratized containers. But the company itself built out a platform, millions and millions of companies using containers. But when the orchestration layer came in there was some contention, there's lots of politics. I'm waiting for Docker the Broadway musical to come out to talk about all the ins and outs there because Kubernetes really sucked the air out of the CloudNative world. Spawned tons of projects here. As you can see behind us, this ecosystem is massive and swelling. Last year it was 8,000 people, year before it was 4,000 people, so many people here, so. And John, so, let's start. This is your first time at this show, you've done many shows with us, definitely covered some of the cloud-native, you've worked with many of the companies that are in this ecosystem here. Give me your first impressions here of KubeCon CloudNativeCon. >> Sure, sure. Well, I mean Stu, 12,000 people, it's pretty crowded here. We're right by the t-shirt line, on day one of the conference. Look, a conference this big, especially an open source conference, there's several jobs to be done, right. This is an active set of open source projects and open source communities. So a lot of the keynote this morning was updating people on details about the latest releases, the latest features, what's in, what's out, what's going on. CNCF is a very broad umbrella for a very broad number of projects, not a coherent opinionated stack, it's a lot of different things that all contribute to a set of CloudNative technologies. So, that's job one. Job two, it's a trade show, and it's an industry show, and people are coming here to figure out how to build and learn and operate. So, that wasn't particularly well served by the keynote this morning. There was certainly a lot of hands-on this week. There's a huge number of breakouts, there's a huge number of tracks. Even day zero, which is a set of specialty breakout workshops and sessions, everything was packed. There were over a dozen of those. So, what strikes me is the breadth here is that it's a mile wide. I won't say it's an inch deep, because there's some, but it is a mile wide. >> Yeah, yeah, John you are right, there's so much going on. The day zero tracks are amazing. I think there were over two dozen, maybe even more of the sessions where, you know, half-day or full day deep dives. Even talk, there was some other small events even that went on for two or three days leading up to this. So, sprawling ecosystem. Last year at this show in Seattle, I actually said that this show is the independent cloud show that we've been looking for. John, I was at Microsoft Ignite just a couple of weeks ago, and absolutely, Satya Nadella, they're not talking about the bits and the bytes. It's a, you know, Microsoft is your trusted partner for everything you're going to do, including building 50 billion new applications. Amazon Reinvent will just be right after Thanksgiving, and we will hear a very different message from Amazon and where they play. But this is not a company, it is a lot of different projects. The CNCF is the steward of this, and so Kubernetes is the one that gets all the attention. I think for this group to even grow more, it needs to be focused more on the CloudNativeCon, because how do we do cloud-native? You know, what does that mean? We heard, you know, Sugu was up on stage talking about Vitess, and he said, look, if you bake your database directly in fully Kubernetes cloud-native, that means that when you want to move between clouds you bring your data with you. So, data, security, networking, messaging, there's so many pieces here. It's a lot of work to be done to mature this stack, but it definitely is getting more mature. You start hearing many of these projects with a million or more downloads a month. So many pieces. John, what are you looking to dig into this week, what are you most excited for, what questions do you want answered? >> Well, here on theCUBE I'm always excited when we get to talk to people in production, customers, really see what's going on. There's a lot of stuff in production right now, which is not to say a lot of stuff isn't bleeding edge, right. I hear a lot of stuff, just out of the woodwork, about things that are fragile, things that aren't ready, things that are not quite updated, and I think Kubernetes is an architectural as well as a spiritual home for everything. But there's a lot of pieces that plug in, and there are opinionated ways of doing it, there are best of breed way, there are vertically integrated stacks. What's the best approach, it's not clear to me. I mean if you have to look at it from a company perspective, who are the winners and losers, I don't think that's a very productive way of looking at it. I'm interested in some projects like, we're going to be talking with Rancher, and they've got some announcements, but I'm also interested in K3s, which is their project there. I'm been hearing some really interesting things on the storage front. You know, all these things are really necessary. It's not all just magic containers moving around. You got to actually get the bits and bytes into the right place at the right time and backed up. >> Yeah, I love that you brought up K3s. Edge is definitely something that I hear talking a lot, because if you talk about cloud-native, it's not just about public cloud. Many of these things can run in my on-premises data centers and everything like that. >> And Edge fits in all of these environments, so. Right, winners and losers, I remember two years ago, first time I got a chance to interview Kelsey Hightower, who we do have on the program. He had actually taken a couple shows off, but he's back here at the show. I said Kelsey, why are we spending so much talking about Kubernetes? Doesn't this just get baked into every platform? And he's like, yeah totally, that's not the importance of it. It's not about distributions, and not about who's who, any of the software companies, it's how do they pull all of the pieces together. How do they add value on top of it. One of the terms I've heard mentioned a lot is, we need to think a lot about day two. Heck, there was even one of the companies that was heavy in this space, Mesosphere, they renamed the company Day Two IQ, spelled D2IQ. No relation to R2D2. But you know, that's what they are focused on to help these things really go together. So yeah, we talk about multicloud, and how do I get my arms around all of these pieces, how do I manage a sprawling environment. You add Edge into it. I've got a huge surface of attack for security issues. So, John, remember cloud was supposed to be simple and cheap, and it really isn't either of those things anymore, so yeah, a lot for us to dig into. >> Yeah, it'll be an interesting mix. Developers, experts, people brand new, probably half the people here they're the first time, and people coming over from the IT space as well as people coming from the open source space and I even saw this morning this is the biggest conference I've ever been to. So it's a many, it's different parts of the elephant, I'd say. >> Yeah, absolutely. It is a good sized conference, especially for open source it probably is the largest. But Salesforce Dreamforce is going on this week, which is more than an order of magnitude bigger, so my condolences to anybody in San Francisco right now, because we know the BART and everything else completely swamped with too many people. One other thing, you know, CNCF, what's really interesting for me always is when you look at a lot of these projects, the people that we saw up on stage were companies, it was the person that oh, I started this project and I'm the technical lead on it, and that's where I'm going. We've interviewed many of the people that start these projects, and they come many times out of industry. It's not a vendor that said, hey, I built something and I'm selling it. It is companies like Uber and Lyft that said, we did things at massive scale, we had a problem, we built something, we thought it was useful for us. Open source seemed a good way to help us get broader visibility and maybe everybody could help, and other people not only pitch in, but say this is hugely valuable, and that's where we go with it. So, it's something we, a narrative I've heard for years about everybody's going to be a software company, well, almost everybody at this conference is building software. We've heard about 30 to 40% of the people attending this show are developers, and therefore many of them are going to build products. A question I have and I'll give you is, with Docker, we just kicked off talking about Docker. You know, Docker created this huge wave of what happens there, but to put it bluntly, Docker the business failed. So, they are not dead, there's the piece that's in Mirantis, there's the piece doing the developer piece. We wish all of them the best of luck, but they had the opportunity to be the next VMware, and instead they are the company that gave us this wave, but did not capitalize on it. So, I look around and I see so many companies, and you say, "Hey, what are you?" "Oh, we're the creators of X technology in this project," and my question is, are you actually going to be able to make money and do a business, or is this just something that gets fit into the overall ecosystem. John, any thoughts and advice for those kind of companies. >> Well, I mean we are here, even though there's 12,000 people here, this is still very leading edge, right. There's a lot of pieces, parts here. We're not sure how they're all going to fit together. A lot of the projects have come out of real use cases, like you say, but they're, it's commercial viability is a different beast than utility. Docker was very good at developer experience, but the DNA of actually selling an enterprise management stack is a whole different beast, and there are a lot of those too. So I mean I think a lot of the companies here may not be around, but their technologies will live on. I think if you're here, and the interviews here at the show I think will be a, you'll want to have your antenna out to see like, okay, does this give you a feeling like this is solving a real problem and is incorporated in a real ecosystem. You know, the big company, it cuts both ways, right. Some of the times those technologies get absorbed and become the standard, sometimes they disappear. So the advice is you just put one foot in front of the other and try to find people in production. That's the only way at the end of the day that you could move ahead as a small company. >> All right, John, I gave you one piece of advice when we came here and I said, you know one thing we don't talk about at this show, we don't talk about OpenStack. So, I'm going to break that rule for a second here, just 'cause I feel we have as an industry learned some of the lessons. There is some of the irrational exuberance around some of these. There's lots of money being thrown at these environments, but I do feel that we are reaching maturity and adoption so much faster, because we are not trying to replacing something. The early days of OpenStack was, you know, we're your alternative for AWS, and we're going to get you off of VMware licensing. And both of those things were, they didn't happen for the most part. And OpenStack did fit in certain environments, especially outside of North America there's lots of OpenStack deployments. The telecommunications environment OpenStack is used a bunch. Telecom, another area, talk about Edge, that plays in here and we have a number of conversations. But there are both the big and the small companies when I look at our list of people we're going to be talking on the program. You know, I love first the customers. We've got Fidelity, Bloomberg, Red Cross, and Ford Motor Company all on the program, and we've got big companies, mega giants like Cisco, Hewlett Packard Enterprise, as well as couple of companies that came out of stealth like in the last week, including Render and Chronosphere. So, you know, broad spectrum of what's going on. You've done some of the OpenStack shows with me. You've got a long community and ecosystem viewpoint, John. What do you think and what do you hear, yeah. >> You know, this is, I guess yeah, this is a next generation, you could look at it that way. Anytime you bring together one of these open source foundations, you know, it is kind of a new style of development. You do have differing agendas. People do again have to have their antenna up to see, is this person promoting this open source project and what is their commercial interest in it. Because there are different agendas here. But it looks pretty healthy. Look, there's probably a million engineers worldwide that are going to have to know the guts of Kubernetes, but it's a different job to be done than OpenStack. OpenStack community is actually, that exists, is still thriving. It is good for the job to be done there. This job to be done's a little different. I think it's going to be an engine, you know, the engine that's embedded in everything else. So there's going to be a hundred million engineers that don't need to know anything about Kubernetes, but people here are the people that pop the hood open and start to you know, mess with the carburetor and this is a carburetor show. And so for the coverage here we're going to try to up level it to talk about the business a little bit, but this feels important. It feels cross-cloud, it feels outside of any one silo, and I'm really interested to see what we're going to learn this week. >> Okay, and thank you John. I really appreciate it to get it right final. It's like what is our job here? We are an independent media organization. Yes, we did bring our own stickers here to be able to, you know, we know everybody here loves stickers, so we've got theCUBE and we've got the fun gopher one, our friends at Women Who Go that support this, because, you know, inclusion, diversity, something that this community definitely embraces, we are huge supporters of their, but right, we want to be able to give that broad viewpoint of everything. We're not going to be able to get into every project. We're not going to go as deep as the day zero content web, but give a good flavor for everything going on in the show. I've found of all the shows I've gone to in recent years, this is some of the biggest brains in the industry. There's a lot of really important stuff, so I appreciate bringing my PHD holding co-host with me, John. Looking forward to three days with you to dig into all the environment. All right, so we will be wall to wall coverage, three days. If you're at the event, we are here in the expo hall. You can't miss us, we've got the big lights right next to the CloudNativeCon store. If you're online of course reach out to us. I'm @stu, S-T-U on Twitter. He's @jtroyer, and hit us up, see us in person, come grab some stickers, let us know who you want to talk to and what question you have, and as always, thank you for watching theCUBE. (upbeat music)

>> From San Francisco, it's theCUBE, covering Day2IQ, brought to you by Day2IQ. >> Hey, welcome back, everybody. Jeff Frick here with theCUBE. We're in downtown San Francisco at the Day2IQ headquarters. They used to be called Mesosphere. They rebranded the company. They've got a much bigger focus than just Mesos and supporting Mesos. So we're here to get the story, really talk about enterprise's journey to cloud native, and we're excited to have our first guest. He's Brian Kenyon, the chief strategy officer. Brian, great to see you. >> Thanks for having me. >> Absolutely. So DayQI, Day2IQ. >> Correct. >> I'm going to get it eventually, by the end of the day. Interesting name. What does Day2IQ mean? Why did you guys rebrand the company that? >> Yeah, absolutely. So we were formerly known as Mesosphere, and the technology that we founded the company on was an open source package called Mesos, so the name naturally had a very close tie with Mesos and Mesosphere. So as we looked to rebrand the company and really enter the market with some of the changes we've seen in the evolution of cloud native, we focused on where customers were having trouble, where they were focused on operations, how they were going to take these concepts and these great ideas that were pervasive in the concept of cloud native and make them institutionalized and operationalized inside their companies. And what we found was, you know, day zero is when you played around and tested things, and day one is when you got it installed and stood up, but day two is when you really focused on the operations. How do I make this enterprise-ready? How do I make this fit my business? All of that happened on day two and after. So we saw that as a pretty natural way to focus our energy and focus our market penetration on day two. >> Right. And you also expanded beyond just kind of the Mesos ecosystem into some other areas, in containers, in Kubernetes, also data. So you guys are taking a little broader approach than maybe the company had at the original launch. >> Yeah, absolutely. And you've heard from one of our founders already and you spoke to our head of engineering. So I'm the newest of those, right? I joined in February, so I'm just, you know, almost 10 months in. So when I joined, I spent a lot of time meeting with our customers, talking to partners, talking to other folks and vendors in the space, and what we saw was there was a massive shift happening from where cloud native started maybe three, four, five years ago to where it is today, and one of the biggest changes has been around the emergence of Kubernetes, which has turned into a de facto standard for containers in cloud native. And so as we've evolved and moved into this D2IQ name, as we've started focusing on meeting our customer, we've obviously taken on a bigger stance inside the Kubernetes community and the Kubernetes product lines. >> Right. So what did you see? I mean, you're a long-time security executive. You've been in strategy and security for years and years and years. What did you see in this opportunity with a small start-up to get you to leave kind of the safe, comfortable, pretty standard corporate job into jumping back into this-- >> Nobody's ever said security's safe, so that's awesome. >> Well, safe certainly in terms of job security. (mumbles) my goodness, a big shill out there these days. >> It is, it is. >> But what did you see? >> I saw the future, is really what I saw. When you really took a step back and you looked at where compute was going and how organizations were starting to adopt new application methodologies, new application architectures, it was very clear that cloud had taken on a big portion of that and the concept of cloud native and open source technologies was becoming more and more prominent. And so as we looked at this, not only did we see a unique opportunity with the cloud native space, but if you fast forward a couple years, customers are going to be coming back around and starting to have conversations around security. How do I secure this? What, how do my CISOs and my operational folks in security understand this and how do they really start to apply the same controls and visibility to it? So it was a unique opportunity to get in and focus on where the future of our industry's going. >> Right. So it's an interesting thing with open source, and open source specifically in the enterprise. I think my favorite open source quote is, yeah, it's free like a puppy. You know, it's not free. You need support and you need training and you need a lot of help. So when you guys work with enterprises and they're incorporating more and more open source into their technology stack, what are some of the challenges that you guys are coming in to help them to actually get beyond a simple free download and the latest cool version to actually running in production, heavy duty loads, really important workloads. >> Absolutely. Yeah, one of the biggest shortfalls we see is obviously expertise, right? So there's a massive amount of innovation and capability that can be, can really be captured through open source software. The challenge is, it's all community-based. So folks contribute code, they sign it in, it's available for everybody to use, but how long is that code updated for? How long is it maintained? How do new features get added? What you see is you see a huge spike in interest and enthusiasm, and then just like every other hype cycle, you get to a trough of disillusionment where people move on to the next thing and the next thing in the open source community. And so organizations who want to leverage that innovation, want to focus their operations around open source, either for cost savings or time to market, find themselves a couple years later looking at code that's been abandoned, projects that aren't maintained anymore. We saw this in security with things like OpenSSL, right? One of the largest SSL libraries used across the entire security landscape. There were two people in the world maintaining that code. And so when a massive security vulnerability hit, organizations were scrambling. We want to stop that now for organizations that want to use open source. We, Day2IQ, want to bring our innovation, our expertise, to bring that open source to the customers and make sure that it's enterprise-ready, it's enterprise-supported, and it's enterprise-scalable. >> Right. So you guys have basically three market offerings, if I understand right. You've got a solution set where you're taking the core software and building solutions around it. You've got services, professional services, to get it in, get it up, and probably supported, so I have a 1-800 somebody to call, please, which, you couldn't call those two people in that case. >> Exactly. >> And then training, is that right? So those are how you're basically enterprise-hardening an open source kernel to get to a great solution for the customer. >> Yeah, what I'd also add in there is services. So whether it's advisory services, implementation services, or just kind of more traditional, our focus is really about meeting the customer where they need us. If you look at cloud and cloud native today, almost every customer across the globe is at a different evolution or a different maturity in that journey, and so some are at the very beginning where they're learning. Others are more towards the end where they're focused on operations and how do I streamline this, how do I hire the right folks. So we've taken a product, services, support, and training strategy that allows us to meet our customers where they are in their cloud native journey and assures us that we can provide the right level of expertise regardless of where they are. >> Right. What's been the biggest, of all the challenges that you see when people are getting started, what's some of the biggest challenges that you just see over and over and over again that you know you're going to get walking in the door? >> Over and over, you see training is just a constant, across the entire industry. No matter where a customer is in their evolution or their journey, they're constantly having to train, whether they're hiring and then training folks on the new way of developing or they're taking developers who have been building code and building applications in virtual machines or old monoliths for years that they want to train to this new paradigm. Training is a huge constant. The other piece is people are looking to rationalize their infrastructure. So services, we are in a very services-led industry right now where we can come in and help customers get stock of where are we today and where do we want to go long-term, and then put them on a plan, put them on a program or a path where they can achieve those outcomes, but do it in a way that's not disruptive or adds (mumbles). >> Right, 'cause the complexity just continues to increase. It's funny, you know, both Amazon introduced a piece of Amazon Cloud you can stick in your data center, and Google introduced a piece of Google Cloud that you can stick in your data center, and Microsoft recently introduced a piece of Azure that you can stick in your data center. So kind of this, you know, kind of real aggressive embracing of hybrid and this real embracing of complex setups where you can partition your workload based on where you think that workload should run today is really gaining hold. So the complexity is only going up, not going down. >> It is, you're absolutely right. And I will tell you, what you just brought up is a great example of why the complexity's going up. On-prem is a massively different, materially different environment than the clouds. The clouds are built on a margin, right? They're built on, if I take the same server and do this over and over again, I get repeatability, I get consistency, I get a very finite platform. If you look at how on-prem is, the traditional data center, you buy some servers from Dell, some servers from HP, storage from EMC, storage from HP. You've got all different types of hardware and software in there. So fixing that on-prem cloud is hard, and the clouds are struggling with this because the concept of taking their very clean, vanilla infrastructure and bringing that to the traditional on-premise is failing. That's where we shine. That's where we've built. That's where Mesosphere got their initial start was taking the cloud concept and bring it to the traditional data center. So we're helping clouds extend now by being that on-prem piece that speaks seamlessly with the clouds that our customers choose to use. >> Right. So I think, too, initially, the cloud was seen as a way to save money, and I've seen that evolve over time. It's really much more about speed and agility in your development cycles and getting new products to market. Do customers grok that? Are they still kind of wrestling with the cost savings and this is kind of an alternative way to buy compute and networking and capacity, or are they really moving fast because of the speed and the competitive threats? >> So I think it's interesting, and it varies, but I will tell you just from my lens, I'll say that a lot of customers are confused. They went to the cloud initially because they believe they wanted to be out of the data center game. It was easier for Amazon or Microsoft or Google to manage the data center than it was for their own IT teams. And so they shifted infrastructure up there, and then what they saw was the promises of hyperscaling, the promises of this elasticity. Your application grows as more users show up. They never realized that because those applications were built under a different premise, under a different architecture, and don't leverage the cloud native capabilities. So you're seeing a shift of people who've moved infrastructure or applications to the cloud to get out of the data center are now saying, okay, I'm kind of locked in, but where do I get my operational efficiency? Where do I get my hyperscaling? How do I get that? And now you're staring to see that shift from just using the clouds as infrastructure to more moving towards microservices, containers, and some of the things that Day2IQ helps with. >> Right, right. It's pretty funny, too, right? 'Cause the apps used to have to be built for the infrastructure on which you were going to deploy them. >> That's right. >> That's now flipped upside down, right? Now the app, the infrastructure needs to support the app. The app comes first, the infrastructure second. >> That's right. >> So having an architecture, you got to have the new architecture. As you said, you just can't simply flip the functionality of an old architecture into a new paradigm. >> And then expect you're going to get the same outcomes. >> Right, right. >> Yeah, very true. >> All right, so before I let you go, I want to get your perspective specifically on security, 'cause again, you were in the security space for a long time. Security's a hot space. Everyone says security has to be baked in everywhere. It can't be the castle and moat anymore. So with your security hat on as you kind of see these migrations and you see these new deployments and you see this move to cloud native, what do you think about from security? Are people baking it in enough? Are they thinking about it in the right way? Is it just such a fundamental shift that they need to think about security and really baking it in from the bottom to the top? >> They absolutely do. And I'll tell you what the scariest thing is, if I go through my CISO networks and talk to folks who are on that side of the fence, they're not even educated to this cloud native space yet. They don't really understand how it's happening and how it's evolving and what that means. So there's a huge education that needs to happen in security, but these things need to be bolted on from the beginning. I'll give you an example. Some of the value that comes from operating cloud native is that your ability to push code and push changes is very agile and quick. So it's encouraged in a cloud native type of architecture that a company can make 100 to 200, 300 code changes a day. >> Right. >> Right? When I grew up, you'd make those monthly, quarterly, right? 'Cause you had a whole bunch of testing. And how they push code multiple times a day. If you don't have your security team in lockstep with those developers and operations staff, how quickly can you get out of compliance? How quickly can you erode your security posture? These are all questions that have to be answered, and we're just at the very earliest stages of getting that. >> Right, and we didn't even talk about IoT and edge devices. >> Absolutely. >> Which opens up a whole different kind of threat surface. >> Absolutely. >> Yeah. >> Absolutely. >> All right, Brian, well, thanks for taking a few minutes. Good luck on the journey and hope things go super for you here. >> Thanks for having me. >> All right, he's Brian, I'm Jeff. You're watching theCUBE. We're at Day2 headquarters, Day2IQ headquarters in downtown San Francisco. Thanks for watching. We'll see you next time. (techno music)

>> Live from Orlando, Florida, it's theCUBE covering Microsoft Ignite. Brought to you by Cohesity and theCUBE's ecosystem partners. >> Welcome back, everyone, to theCUBE's live coverage of Microsoft Ignite. I'm your host, Rebecca Knight, along with my cohost, Stu Miniman. We're joined by Patrick O'Reilly of O'Reilly Venture Partners based in San Francisco. Thanks so much for coming on theCUBE, Patrick. >> Thanks for having me. >> So, you are a serial entrepreneur now working as a VC, what are you doing here? Tell us why you came to Ignite. >> Yeah, well selfishly on the VC side we have a few of our portfolio companies here that have booths, and I wanted to kind of hear what people are asking, you know, why they're interested in the companies and how we're framing, you know, those companies to the end users. I think these type of events are really good to unlock hidden potential, or things that people can tell you that you wouldn't actually have thought about, yeah. >> Yeah, so Patrick, you know, I've known you for a number of years. Usually see you at the opensource shows. Microsoft, you know, publicly very embracing opensource. You know, they love Linux, partnering with Red Hat, even you know, partnering is a lot of things that Microsoft does. They were working with VMware. What's your viewpoint as to how you see Microsoft and the opensource world, and how about this ecosystem? Is this a vibrant ecosystem that, you know, VCs are investing in, or is it just that there's companies of yours that, you know, this is part of the story. >> No, and I think historically we've had the, you know, build versus buy, you know, kind of way of looking at it, but when I typically think of Microsoft, it's more people building glue, you know, code to kind of connect things together, and you tend to have blinders on and not think about what opensource components you can use. You know, you look for like what company has a solution you can buy, or license or OEM, and I think that's changing, you know, over time. You know, Microsoft does an amazing job with developers of giving them very easy to understand languages and amazing tooling, and along with that the documentation and the training, so I kind of felt like you came into development one of two ways. You either were like on the Microsoft track and using the cookie cutter approach, you know, to doing things and getting certified on something, or you were opensource, you learned the scripting language and you just looked at what you can cobble together in the opensource world, and there wasn't a lot of crosspollination, but now I see that those walls kind of dissolving. People are willing to mix and match. >> Yeah, it's interesting, you know, some places I've seen Microsoft, a lot in the Kubernetes show, so you know, first got to know you you were at Kismetic, you know, really the first company around Kubernetes that we knew. You know, I know you're doing a lot of different things but we love your viewpoint on, you know, anything on Microsoft in that space, as well as just what you've seen, you know, as a watcher of the Kubernetes space these days. >> Yeah, I mean I've been... You know, if I step back from Kubernetes, you know, back to like the Apache Mesos and the Mesosphere days, you know, if you rewind all the way back there you kind of had to do a lot of education of like, "What do you mean 'containerization?' "I have VMs, why do I need containers?" And now that we've gotten past that and people actually understand the value of containers, like having an orchestration system in place that works and works with everything, you know, is obviously more important than ever, and it's... I really credit the CNCF and the Linux Foundation for what they've done to kind of bring standards around Kubernetes and shepherd the project, and I think that, you know, the fairly recent announcement from Google that they're fully trusting, you know, CNCF to be the shepherd of that is huge, and it gives a framework for people, like Gabe at Microsoft, to work with, you know, some of the staff at Google, and like, in a collaborative way and move it forward for everyone, and I think, you know, historically containers made a ton of sense on Linux, but now that we have Windows server, you know, supporting containers and theCUBE working, you know, on Windows, I think in the 111... Or sorry, 113 release we'll have full Windows server, you know, support in Kubernetes, like that'll be huge. And just a quick aside, like the reason I even kind of honed in on containers and thought it was interesting is the average server utilization is still so low, but we're not really trained as technologists to care about that, and you know, we're really good at building data centers and tucking them off in places where no one sees, but when the average server's taking like... It's like running a hairdryer on high, you know, for electricity and then they run so hot you have to cool it. Like, we're really not helping the environment, so I think if we can move towards containerization, move towards efficient utilization of our hardware, you know, it'll be better for everyone, not just this ecosystem, so... >> So, talk to, tell our viewers a little bit about your portfolios and your portfolio companies that are here, and how they fit into the ecosystem. >> Yeah, so the one I'm most excited about, or shouldn't probably say it that way, I'll reframe that-- >> Can't have favorites, they're all your babies. (laughs) >> Yeah, they're all my babies. (laughs) >> But Ziften Technologies is great. I think their integration with the Windows, the vendor ATP, you know, advanced threat protection, you know, tool is great. They focus on the Mac and the Linux components and give you that same kind of pane of glass on the Microsoft side to see those endpoints, and like their utilization of AI, like they have an upcoming release where they're using AI to do things, and traditionally in that space it's been like the AB vendors, you know, doing everything and you had kind of, "Here's our signatures, "we're going to scan against those signatures," and it's a creative use of AI now to, like, look for just anomaly detections. These are the things we haven't seen before. Not sure what it is but it looks abnormal, and those are the kind of like spin-outs of companies that I'm looking for, too. Like I want to see people doing more meaningful things, you know, with AI. I think if we look at Azure and what they're offering now, like I don't need to have a bunch of data scientists at my startup. I can implement computer vision just using what off-the-shelf components, you know, from Microsoft and you know, Azure. I can do video indexing, you know, using their services. Like, if I rewind just back three years I would've had to have a team of like four data scientists. They'd be reading whitepapers, they'd be implementing code that like sort of half works, and they would probably take half a year to train some models to get, like, moderate results, and now in a matter of minutes, you know, I can use this off-the-shelf stuff. >> Yeah, it's fascinating, I think back to, you know, we were pretty early at theCUBE at watching the whole big data trend, and back then it was like, "Okay, we're going to "take that two-year project and you know, "drive it down to six months," and now we talk in the AI space is, you know, how can we drive that down even more. In big data there was concern, everything seemed to be custom. In AI we're starting to get to more templatized solutions, rolling out for a lot of industries, and it feels like it's taking off a lot faster than that space is, and I know there's a lot of investment going on in the space, and a lot there, so... Anything in particular, you know, what excites you, what makes a good, you know, AI investment versus, you know, there's just so much happening out there. >> Well, you know, I... I struggle with the name AI a little bit. >> Yeah, no, no, I understand, yeah. >> I'm working on a talk, and you know, I kind of like don't, I don't enjoy the artificial aspect of it because it's really just intelligence, and you know, right now it's a buzzword people are throwing into everything when really they mean, "We use an algorithm." (laughs) You know, it's not truly AI, but when we get to cognition we get, you know, to, you know, someday if we have quantum supremacy we'll have, you know, systems that actually can maybe have a consciousness, you know, and decide things. That's where I'm interested, I'm looking... Like on the devops side I'm looking for people using AI to get away with repetitive tasks. Like I would love to see, you know, someone have a system where it's like, "Hey, we've noticed, you know, 90 times "this week this guy's done this exact "same thing, you know, 99% the same way." Like, let's automate that away. You know, we've been really good in the space to kind of treat infrastructure like code, you know, and be able to tear things up. Like I mean, I've been incredibly excited to see, like just in my career, how we went from, "Okay, you're going to do something meaningful on the web. "You need to build a data center. "You need to, you know, get a bunch of servers, racks," and then you pay all this equipment and oh, by the way, 18 months from now it's going to be obsolete and you're going to have to spend money again, to where now I can just, you know, get some credits to start up in the cloud, you know, try things out and do like really meaningful things. So, just looking for anyone on AI that's going to do something that moves the needle. >> Yeah, now that, yeah, just on the terminology piece, I've lived through the cloud wars and the argument over what was and what isn't, so it's just, you know, the shorthand for this wave that we have there, where AI or ML, or you know, IBM has some interesting terms that they want to call it. We understand that there's intelligence that I can do with software, a lot of machine-to-machine things that are going on, and it's not a lot of, you know, shouldn't be a lot of heavy lifting by people to go in there. Oh, wait, I can train something, I can learn what's happening, so... >> Well, I wanted to ask when... I'm sure a lot of entrepreneurs ears are pricking up when they hear that you want to make these meaningful investments. What is it that you look for in a company, is it... In terms of the leadership team, in terms of any track record, what sort of makes your eyes light up? >> So, I try to go to as many conferences as I can, because I feel that's where, you know, the hallway track and I can meet people. I can see, you know, their talks, see what they're passionate about, so what I'm really looking for is investing more in the people than in the idea, because startups can always pivot, and you look at some of the greatest companies out there, they were pivots from, you know, a slightly different model and they realized that, "Oh, we should go chase down this other thing." So, to me, I'm looking for people that are doing something exciting where they are already, looking to make the leap. You know, for example, like you know, the Spinnaker team or people that do something, you know, like... You know, like if etcd wanted to move off and be a separate company, like things like that where they've done something, they've proven it, and now they want to go start a company around it, and I think right off the bat, like if you've built some interesting technology that people are starting to use you have a decent revenue stream just from support, you know, of that and helping those end users, and I think, you know, with O'Reilly we do something a little different than other people. Like I focus mostly on seed investment, very early stage. Our typical check size is around $500k, and I actually allow people to take us off the cap table and just pay us back. Like you know, I've done nine startups in my career, and it's... Fundraising is one of those things where you only get good at it once you don't need it anymore, (chuckles) and I felt the pain of being on that side of the desk and I want to be in the position where, you know, we can write the checks and not try to, like, have a lot of governance, not try to take a board seat, not give you down pressure, you know, on what you're doing but really be additive. I think moving forward I would love to be in the position where we can help incubate, you know, a lot of companies because we've found that, you know, you all kind of go through, every company goes through the same process like, "Now, we need a real CFO because "we need financial projections." Like, being able to, like, provide those services for portfolio companies where they don't have to go spend their resources chasing that down. >> I'm curious how much some of the big players, or just the gravity of what's happening in the space that you're looking at, so obviously we're here at the Microsoft show, but Google, Amazon, a lot of activity going on and we can call it AI or what you will, VMware even, Oracle, SalesForce, how much of the big players defining and you have to build around them, versus you know, we look at Kubernetes is supposed to make things independent, to be able to be opensource and be able to build solutions, you know, regardless of what platform they're on. >> Yeah, I mean, I think we're living in a world where people have a lot of choice, you know, and we look at even, like we take the example of cloud providers. Like, as long as I don't get vendor lock in and use, you know, their specific features, like I can move around to different cloud providers, I can now say I want to negotiate a better price here and migrate over, and I think just with any of the technologies, like trying to work in ways where companies can work together and be additive, I think that's where we actually move, you know, move down the field. I don't know what analogy's appropriate to use, but you know, I feel like there's a lot of really interesting stuff that we should be doing, and making... Every company doing a slightly different version of the same thing I don't think, you know, makes sense. Like, you know, even silly things like as we mature. Like, you know, back in the day everyone used to have broadcast television. We built all these antennas, we got all this range, you know, and then we moved to digital and we didn't need those antennas, we didn't need that range, so they started decommissioning them, but then companies came along and they're like, "Well, wait, now we have this "unlicensed spectrum we can use." So, now they're using it for internet. You know, you can get 20 megabit connectivity out to a rural farm where now they can put some cheap IoT sensors, and like, do really meaningful things with low cost technologies, like those are the things I'm interesting in. You know, so kids that want to cobble together, you know, IoT sensors and come up with a way to use, you know, what they have in rural areas, and like, and have technology actually help people in a meaningful way, and I think those are a lot of very viable startups, you know, in that space. I do think we live in a world where every company's going to end up graduating into one of the camps, be it, you know, SalesForce, Google, you know, Microsoft, but in that innovation spike, like when they're first starting improving out the companies I think they have a ton of choice, you know. >> You described a very beneficent approach to how you think about VC. Do you think, how would you describe the VC landscape right now? You said you want to be able to just incubate great ideas and help these young companies when they are not good at fundraising and they don't have the smooth, slick deck that will really impress the bigger VC firms. I mean, how, what's wrong with the VC landscape today and what else are you doing to make it better? >> Well, I think the incentives are a little off. You know, I can speak for myself, like when I was... You know, when I was looking to raise VC money and my previous companies, like you know, you get these great offers from people, but then you talk to other entrepreneurs and you're like, you know, I'm not going to call anyone out by name, but you're like, "Well, how is this VC's firm served you," and you start hearing of ways that it was additive, but also kind of put undue pressure on them, or they say things like, "Well, we really didn't "need to raise that round then. "We could've done bridge financing "or we could've figured out how to get a MVP product "out there and brought in some revenue." So, I just think it's the ultrahigh returns that VCs are looking for, and the promises that those VCs are making to their LPs, (chuckles) you know, in their funds to outperform everyone else, and you know, everyone talks to everyone, right? So, if anything's meaningful out there looking for investment kind of the back channel is very vibrant and it's dog-eat-dog, and some of it, I kind of reckon it to, you know, your alma mater, like where you went to school. Like, you know, if you're an MIT person, like MIT's the best place in the world. You know, if you're, you know, some other school, they're the best place in the world, and the VCs tend to kind of, like, fall in those camps, and what I'm looking to do-- >> And those are real biases that impact women and underrepresented minorities, to their detriment. >> Yeah, and you know, and that's the thing I've struggled with, too, when you look at the... Like, let's take Andreessen, you know, for example and you look at the portfolio companies, like you know, you kind of become locked into that ecosystem. Like if you want to go, you know, if I'm on Mesosphere and I want to go partner with someone that's not under that, or they have a company in that portfolio that does similar things, you're going to be pressured into working with the portfolio company over going off and maybe choosing the better, you know, choice for the industry, so I'd like to see, you know, those things change. >> Right, and so, Patrick, we talked a little bit about Ziften, security endpoint, you know, really hot space. I want to give the opportunity, other companies you have here that we should check out. >> Yeah, so we work closely with the team at Turbonomic. I think, you know, what they've done over time, you know, is amazing. I love products where you can just bolt it in and within a short period of time you're getting value. Like, you know, stepping back and just saying one thing about Ziften, like I think it's amazing, because I come from a software development, you know, background, and one thing as a software developer I've always found fascinating is like when you come in wearing the developer hat they give you the keys to the kingdom. They're like, "Oh, here's root access to the servers, "here's where all of our data is, "here's how you do a snapshot of production "to, you know, test it, you know, in staging," and I've always thought that it was a tremendous amount of risk, and you know, on average a company can be hacked for up to 100 days before they even realize that they've had a breach, and like, any kind of company, you know, be it Ziften or anyone in that space, that can showcase that to you. Like, you know, raise up things that you weren't aware of, you know, is really interesting, and then, you know, to the, like, Nico and Turbonomics and the things that they're doing there. Like, to actually get the most out of what you already have, like that's huge to me, because one of the, you know, one of the things I see in cloud computing that we didn't necessarily have, you know, directly owned physical infrastructure is it's almost too easy to spin things up. You know, you've got the guy clicking through the UIs like, "Oh, this instance looks great. "Oh, and it says it's only be $140 this month," and then they end up spinning up 1,000 of those, you know? (laughs) You get that first sticker shock of, like, here's that $250,000 bill that month, (chuckles) you know, for cloud, and companies like Turbonomics can, like, avoid you, you know, making those mistakes. >> Great, Patrick, thank you so much for coming on theCUBE. It was really fun talking. >> Yeah. >> We could talk to you for hours. >> Thanks for having me, I appreciate it. >> I'm Rebecca Knight for Stu Miniman. We will have more from theCUBE's live coverage of Microsoft Ignite coming up in just a little bit. (techy music)

>> Announcer: Live from Copenhagen, Denmark, it's theCUBE! Covering KubeCon + CloudNativeCon Europe 2018. Brought to you by the Cloud Native Computing Foundation, and it's ecosystem partners. >> Hello there and welcome back to theCUBE's exclusive coverage of KubeCon 2018, the Cloud Native Compute Foundation. CNCF, I'm John Furrier with theCUBE. My cohost Lauren Cooney is here with me this week. Our next two guests are from HPE Developer program. Paul Holland, Director of Open Source Program Office. And Said Syed, who is the Head of HP Developer Experience. CUBE alumni. Welcome back. Good to see you. >> Thanks for having us. >> Thanks for comin' on. >> Thank you. >> First of all, new logo. I love that, I want to get into it. HPE Developer program. We've had many conversations in the past about the relationship with Docker. The work you guys are doing inside the enterprises with cloud, multi-cloud and hybrid cloud. Why are you guys here? What's the story? What's the update from HPE? >> In December we launched this new program called the HP Community Developer Program. And that's really focused on reaching out to the developers that are out there. Whether these are DevOps developers, Cloud Native application developers, ITOps developers, who are looking to do integration with HPE infrastructure as well as our software defined platforms. It's basically evangelizing all of the good work that HP's doing in the open source program and other areas. Do you want to add something, Paul? >> Yeah, I think part of it is the recognition that HPE is a software company. After all of the separations, the divestiture with HPI and that micro-focus. We're left with really still a lot of developer power. It's the idea that as we work with developers internally and externally, we need to formalize that developer program. Both inside of open source and the general developer. Go through our API's and some of that coordination, to really make the developer work. >> I mean we're talking software defined. Everything now, you guys have been part of that. To give you guys some props, we've interviewed in the past four or five years, you guys were doing, talking micro services early on. >> Syed: That's right. >> Again the enterprise has software defined systems. >> You guys are a big part of that. So I got to ask you, the perfect storm is here. I mean Kubernetes, which is on the scene, is now, at least in my opinion, the defacto standard for interoperability around multi-cloud. This is the perfect storm for a company as big as HP with all the customers. So what is... I mean you guys must be sitting there going, perfect timing! What does it mean for you guys, Kubernetes? This is going to give you certainly a tail wind for deployments, and customer value creation. What's it mean internally for HPE? >> Well I think Kubernetes is at the heart, as you mentioned, of the open source ecosystem. It's about all of those Lego blocks now finally coming together with micro-services. And being able to put 'em together for an enterprise class workload. And given our history and expertise there I think you're right. It's a great opportunity to make sure that it works for the enterprise developer, for general developers. And how everything comes together within it, within a corporate world of development. >> Are you guys doubling down? >> Syed: Absolutely. >> What's the story internally? Is it got the charter from the top? >> That's right, yeah, we're definitely doubling down. As you mentioned, we started early on with micro services, with our partnership at Docker. We have a great relationship with Mesosphere. And we're full on with Kubernetes. You know we have a product that we're actually demoing here on the show floor, called HPE OneSphere. We launched the product in December of last year. And one of the things it actually does, it enables Kubernetes' cluster management on-prem and off-prem. For example in AWS. Deployment, management, all of those things. We are full on. We also have open source projects in the Kubernetes landscape. It's called Project Dory. That enables persistent storage. It's actually contributed by our Nimble big business unit. We're very focused on enabling our developers. Things that enable them is things like, how can I automatically deploy applications? And so on. Using Kubernetes cluster or Kubernetes environment. Working with Paul and others that's exactly what we're focused on. >> What are some of the user cases that you guys are seeing? As you mentioned some of those deployments. Is it really existing integration within HP Solutions? Like OneSphere? And OneSphere's obviously going to be a nice paint a glass and look at the platform of what the cloud offers. Is it Edge? Is it IoT? I mean what are some of the user cases? >> I think it's all of the above. I think what we're seeing is legacy enterprises having all of these legacy applications that they need to migrate this new world. At the same time they're struggling with, how do then I make hybrid? How do I then go to the Edge? And so across the board, I think that's the power of going back to your original question about HPE. Is we've seen all of that in the enterprise. And can we put those proprietary componentry into the products? Like a OneSphere on top of open source components. The reason we're here at Kubernetes, as an example, is to really highlight to developers that if you really want to bring things together. We can help you do that. Whether it be legacy applications, new application, greenfield applications. All within this again Lego block type environment, within Kubernetes and these other open source platforms. >> I mean you guys also again on the composable infrastructure kind of story. It's kind of here, right? >> That's right. Again we started down this journey three, four years ago with Docker. And several others. We built this unified ecosystem. A composable ecosystem. And in the ecosystem I think there's now like 40 some partners. But that's growing. If you look at it from a layered cake point of view. The infrastructure is here. That problem has been solved for a long time. You have infrastructure management. With one view, with our composable API's. Working with components like Docker, and Mesosphere, and Redfish, and other open source products and services, on top of that with OneSphere as the multi-cloud/hybrid cloud management platform, again using the power of our API's. And then integrating north bound with these hybrid multi-cloud management environments, as well as south bound with infrastructure management. Now you have the overall story. We're really exploiting the power of API's. And enabling our developers internally, as well as developers outside of HPE, To come together and start to think about this new idea. Is there a solution for that? Absolutely, there's an app for it. And then the way you build that app is build that API integration. >> You talked about an app store that you guys are working on. It has about 40 different partners in it. What about users of the solutions that are in there? Are you seeing an uptick in that? And what are you seeing in terms of that and what are they using? >> Yeah so I'll give you a quick example. We launched the developer community program in December. We launched the portal in December. And in the past two and a half months, we have seen a significant uptick and actually just people comin' in and hanging out on the portal. I think we are up to about 30,000 unique, unique views of our page. Most people are spending three to four minutes, which is a lot in today's terms. Someone who is going there, reading our content. And then on top of that actually consumer-ship of our projects. Grommet for example is one of our open source projects that HP funds. It's a UX front end. I think it has more than 10,000 people that are following it, and using it. Companies like Netflix, for example, use Grommet as a UX. Most of our SDCG is off our defined applications are now using Grommet. So OneSphere, One View. That's our de facto standard. But it's open source, anyone can use it. >> Are you finding, HP is traditionally been kind of a company that does a lot of things internally. Are you guys opening up for the first time? With allowing your developers to build things that will be put into open source? Can you talk a little bit about that? >> The power of HP is we've had a rich collaboration history for a long, long time. And I think you alluded to it before. From an enterprise perspective, how can we make that easy? Not only for our own internal developers. And maybe this is where this question comes from from an internal perspective. Even ten, 15 years ago with Martin Fink, at the helm of the open source group. And then ultimately as the CTO. And things have shifted through the separations. How do you leverage that power of openness, collaboration, that's in their DNA? And really empowering them to share. How do we take concepts like inner sourcing, which is the open sourcing of activities inside a company, And really start develop those habits and capabilities. Whether or not it's external is just a flip of the switch. But developers know how to contribute. They're also learning best of breed skills. And developing their own career over time. >> Cooney: That is great to hear. >> And enabling that for other enterprises as well. Which is really where a lot of our customers come to us and say, hey you're an enterprise with lots and lots of developers. How do I get that same power with mine? And you kind of walk them through the journey. >> It's interesting, I'd love to get your thoughts on this. I think you guys are doing... First of all I love the new logo. I think it's really important everyone knows you guys have a very active and open source community. And have been on this. This is not a new thing, revelation within HP. But Intel has the same challenge. They're tryna move away from that Intel Inside. You guys are known to a lot of people as a hardware company. You got HP.com is now the printer and the peripheral side. But it's a cloud game. You're still selling servers but people are still buying servers. The cloud providers need servers. They need it. But the software is the key, the software defined infrastructure is now that glue layer. Service meshes are hot. You're seeing SDO's got massive traction. Everything's pointing to this new level of services at scale. >> That's right. >> I want to get your thoughts on the HP story there. Can you take a minute to explain what you guys are doing with that vision? Because Cloud Native isn't just about the cloud. There's a lot of on-prem activity that's moving to a cloud operating model. So it's not a full public cloud. What's your story? >> If you look at the overall strategy. We make hybrid IT simple, recognizing that it's all those different flavors. We have to enable the software capabilities because the world is software enabled. You have all those componentries working together seamlessly and automated. And then we have the services groups to make it happen. With the Pointnext, and the acquisitions of cloud technology partners in the new areas. We have a wide variety of a portfolio of services that are now enabled. And experts to actually go help customers do it. And so we have the capability legacy. We also have the capability of the new generation of IT. And everywhere in between. And then you talk about the Edge. And so with our acquisition Aruba, which it seems like a long time ago. It's just a few years. They've been an integral part of taking that from a data center all the way to the edge and in between. I think we've got those multiple layers of hybrid IT. We have the software enabled activities, which definitely includes open source. Because you can't be software enabled without software and open source. And then from a service perspective, the wealth, depth of bench, in terms of... >> And OneSphere's the key product that, for you guys, that connects all this. Is that kind of where the momentum is? >> Holland: It's one of them. >> One of them, okay. >> And then if you look at some of the acquisitions we have made. CTP, for example, or Cloud Cruiser, for example. These are all helping us build our portfolio of rich services that enable customers to go from a pure on-prem, pure hardware focus company. To now a new age Cloud Native, or hybrid cloud sort of company, where, we have the experience. Now, we have the experience with all of these different acquisitions like CTP, to enable them to have a full hybrid cloud of micro plus macro services kind of migration capabilities. >> What are you guys offering developers? Not that I'm going to ask you for the pitch. Cause everyone, the developers are getting a lot of pitches, if you will. People say I got to own the developer. They don't want to be owned. They want to be collaborative. But they're closer to the front lines than ever, these developers. And they're really looking at business problems. It's not just, here's the specs go code it. They're on the front lines. Right at the point of engagement for the business logic, and the business models of a lot of these applications. What do you guys bring to the table for the developers? Is it marketplace? Is it distribution? Is it opportunity? What is the value proposition that you guys are talking to developers about, specifically? >> I think it's all three. We really start with internal, right? We are aligning our internal developers to really consume our own champagne. Drink your own champagne. So what does that mean? Can you use OneSphere to develop OneSphere? Absolutely. Our mentality is, our OneSphere developers, in fact a couple of our distinguished technologists are here. So more customer focused. Do your development on your own products, on your own products. Does that make sense? >> Yeah. >> So that's number one, right? If they go through the pains of developing on our own products. They will know exactly which areas to focus on. And so that's one thing we are really enabling our developers to do. Is really think outside in, versus inside out. Gone are the days of, we will build it and they will come. No they won't. You have to really give them what they are going to consume. So from a strategy perspective, we're really exposing our developers to the outside world. Hey go out there. Talk to them. Learn what they're looking for. Right, so that's number one. Number two. With the developer community program, and the developer portal, and the open source program. Now that we're collaborating across HPE, at the top end and the bottom end. We're not really able to think about how we use the power of our API's, from layer 1 infrastructure all the way up to layer 7. Or Layer 5 and above. And say, "Alright how do we enable these guys to build value add that really solves their problem?" Whether it's DevOps problems. CI/CD? Whether it deploying applications, managing, monitoring applications. It's all through the power of API. If you can automate it, orchestrate it and manage it. Then we have really solved your problems. This is why we're not only going after and enabling the developers by giving them what they need. We're also partnering with key partners in our ecosystem that actually brings the best of breed. And that's what the customers are used to using today. >> And you guys had it more up to stack. Certainly the application level is a key point. What about the channel opportunity? Cause I'm seeing, and I've been talking about this on theCUBE lately, is developers are the new sales channel, because in the old days VAR's, and ISV's and channel partners would bring solutions. And you guys had a great channel, have a great channel that brings solutions to customers. Now these customers are having programming and developing done from the partners. You guys have to create that. Are you guys looking at that as a significant opportunity, with this program? >> In today's world you have to think about things in a different way. With the advent of DevOps. With the developers no longer in their cubes, not touching production, they're releasing the production daily. Or multiple times per day. And so we're lookin', or have looked with that with, how do the developer work. And get that all the way to production. At the same time, what's the skill sets to work with in the open? Are you talking about the channel? The open source community is a great channel. Not only for ideas and conversations, but also to meet people. Not only are we there. >> Furrier: Your buyers are there. >> Yeah exactly. We're releasing the customers. But customers is part of our community. Vendors are part of our community. Partners are part of our community. And together we're building a community of developers that are doing work that ultimately goes to production multiple times per year. >> When you guys get this right, I think the gains will be huge. >> Well I'll give you an example. One of the largest web companies in the world. We're partnering with them. They're a huge customer of ours. Instead of selling to their frontline, we went and started talking to their developers. And their developer leaderships. To the point where we are working on doing hackathons. So our developers, their developers, in the same conference room, solving joint problems together. >> Cooney: So co-development. >> Co-developing, exactly. We call it a hackathon. But yeah, co-developing, absolutely. That's where we're focused. Because today developers and the line of businesses have more and more and more influence on key technology decisions. That's where the money is. >> Being genuine and authentic in these communities is certainly a great, successful formula. You guys, see that. We'll be following your progress. Thanks for coming on theCUBE and sharing the update. And congratulations on the new program. And the new logo. I'd love to get a shirt when you get a chance. >> Absolutely, yeah. >> Congratulations, great to see you. Thanks for comin' on. We are here at KubeCon 2018 in Europe. This is theCUBE, I'm John Furrier. Thanks for watching. We'll be back with more live coverage after this short break.

>> Announcer: Live from Madrid, Spain. It's theCUBE. Covering HB Discover Madrid 2017. Brought to you by Hewlett-Packard Enterprise. >> Welcome back to Madrid everybody. This is theCUBE, the leader in live tech coverage. We're here, day one of HPE Discover Madrid. HP's European show, I'm Dave Vellante with my co-host Peter Burris. Said Syed is here. He's the director of Software-Defined and Cloud Group at Hewlett-Packard Enterprise, and he's joined by Katreena Mullican, who is a senior architect and cloud whisperer at HudsonAlpha Institute for Biotech. Folks, welcome to theCUBE, thanks for coming on. >> Happy to be here. >> Great to be here, thanks. So Said, we're very excited about this new developer initiative that you're leading. After the Spin merge, lot of software chops and developer communities went, but Hewlett-Packard Enterprise committed to developers, so tell us about this new initiative. >> Yeah, absolutely, so we're launching this community next week at QCon, and it is a pan-HP program which enables all of the different developers that are already out there. We already have thriving communities, they were just individual and ad hoc, and we'll put them under the pan-HP developer community umbrella where developers can congregate with HPE developers and partners, ISVs like Mesosphere and others, and talk about how we can fix their problems, and they can help us get better at what we do. >> So, Katreena, I think dog whisperer, horse whisperer, they can tame my animals. Cloud whisperer, can you help me tame my cloud? What is a cloud whisperer? >> Sure, what I do is wrap my head around all of the different cloud architectures available for both private and public cloud, and research those, figure out quickly which ones can benefit HudsonAlpha and the type of research that we do with genomics, and put all the right pieces together. Make a solution out of it that's secure and available 24/7, 365. >> So tell us a little bit more about HudsonAlpha. >> So HudsonAlpha is a non-profit institute. We are an organization of entrepreneurs, scientists and educators, who are applying genomics to everyday life. We collaborate on our 150 acre campus in Huntsville, Alabama with 40 affiliate companies. So it really is an effort to come together between scientists and researchers, and IT. >> And you really can't talk about cloud without talking about developers, so from a developer's perspective what do you want from the guys who are providing infrastructure hardware and software? >> Well, we have turned our IT department into developers, and I think that's something that not everyone does, and I think it's an important first step to being able to really leverage the type of infrastructure that HPE offers. We have composible infrastructure in our data center. We have hyper-converged infrastructure. We have storage, we have all these different pieces that we are able to provision automatically and fluidly, rapidly, with API, which requires developer mindset, right? Not your traditional system administration, just keep an eye on a server. It's not like that any more, and I think it's really important that IT embraces developer practices and dev ops. And we're actually doing that at the hardware level, as well as then, right, you prep that foundation, so that your developer teams, your software developer teams can then build on it, too. >> I think this is a crucially important step for virtually every CIO to think about, and let me explain what I mean as quickly as I can. Every CIO says, "What am I going to do with my infrastructure people?" Analysts like us always say, "Oh, liberate your people to go solve problems." But having infrastructure people at least start thinking, acting like, imagining like developers is a step that allows you to solve near-term problems, and get them on the path to really using a developer mindset or developer problem-solving skills that may, in fact, help the business in other ways in the future. What do you think about that? >> Right, I think it is asking the IT traditional roles to step up, and learn a new skill set, which is not easy. It's an investment of time and resources, but well worth the effort. I think if you do not do that and expand your skill set, you will not be able to leverage these solutions that are out there. Or you'll just be using them kind of out of the box, which they'll work out of the box, but is that really what they're capable of doing? >> So how long did this take, to go through this transition at HudsonAlpha? >> Well, I've been with HudsonAlpha for two years, and from the moment that I arrived, we have a very small IT department, just a handful of people, so from the moment that I arrived, we just architect the job description that way, right? We write into the job description, "Welcome to IT. "By the way, you're a dev op software engineer now. "You're an infrastructure administrator. "You need to understand software to find networking." All of these pieces are expected, and it can be a lot of work to learn that on the side, but well worth it, yeah. >> Absolutely, absolutely, and I can tell you HudsonAlpha obviously is ahead of its time in terms of things that they are doing, 'cause trying to organize your workforce around software development mindset versus infrastructure administration mindset, it's a huge ordeal. But the way they have done it, is actually, I'm very happy to partner with them on this thing. >> So Said, how are you going to sort of measure success of this initiative? What are your objectives and what should we be looking for over the next 12, 18 months? >> Yeah, so our measure of success is how many developers are joining the community, and actually active. 'Cause people can join but if they're not active it's not really worth their time, right? So developers getting active on our slat channels, which we have all integrated into a platform, and then on our side, our developers, and our R-and-D guys are actually going to be collaborating directly with our users, the developers, you know, people like Katreena and others. And so measure of success is going to be how many problems we're able to solve, how much contribution people like Katreena are going to have on the platform itself, and what type of contribution, what type of API integration we're good doing, those are the kind of things we're looking for in short term. How many HP platform, how many, number of SDKs, number of blogs, those kinds of things, right? So those are the kind of analytics that we're going to actually follow through over the next 12 to 18 months. The idea needs to be every software platform, or every software solution that we launch, like OneSphere, it will be API-driven right from the start. And partner-driven, and developer-centric, right from the start. That's our idea of how we measure success here. >> Okay, we got to go, but Katreena, we'll give you the last word. What are you looking for, how will you measure success of this initiative? >> Well, success for us are completed projects and saving lives, literally. That's the wonderful thing about working at HudsonAlpha. It's very measurable in the amount of compute that we can accomplish, and storage that we can provision, and keep up the environment for the researchers, so-- >> Great, excellent. Well, have a great rest of Discover. Thanks so much for coming on theCUBE, appreciate it. >> Thank you, all right, bye-bye. >> You're welcome, all right, keep it right there, buddy. We'll be back with our next guest right after this short break. (electronica flourish)

(mid-tempo music) >> Announcer: Live, from Los Angeles, it's The Cube. Covering Open source Summit North America 2017. Brought to you by the Linux Foundation and Red Hat. >> Okay welcome back and we're live in Los Angeles for The Cube's exclusive coverage of the Open Source Summit North America. I'm John Furrier, my co-host Stu Miniman, Our next guest is Steve Pousty, who's the Director of Developer Advocacy for Red Hat, Cube alumni, we last spoke at the Cisco Devnet Create, which is their new kind of cloud-native approach. Welcome Back. >> Thank you, thank you, glad to be here. >> We're here at the Open Source Summit, which is a recognition that of all these kind of ... With LinuxCon, all these things, coming events, it's a big ten event, love the direction, >> Yeah Validation to what's already happened and the recognition of open source, where Linux is at the heart of all that, Red Hat also you guys are the Linux standard, and gold standard, but there's more- >> We like to think of it that way, but- >> But there's more than Linux on top of it now, so this is a recognition that open source is so much more. >> For sure, I'm mean you can even see ... Who would've thought that there'd be a whole huge hubbub about Facebook doing a separate license for their react libraries and all the interactions with Apache, the Apache Foundation. Open source is so much ... it's the mainstream now. Like, basically, it's very hard to release a proprietary product right now and come up with some justification about why you have to do it. >> And why, and can it even be as good. >> Steve: Right. >> There's two issues, justification and performance. >> Yeah, quality, all that stuff. And also, customers' acceptability of that. Like, "Oh wait, you mean I can't actually even see the code? "I can't modify the code, I can't pay you to modify the code "and share it with everybody else?" I think customers have come to a whole ... Users of open source stuff, it's so permeated now that I think it's hard to be in the market without ... I mean, look at everybody who's here. Some of the people that are here were some of the biggest closed source people before. >> John: Microsoft is here. >> Exactly. >> John: IBM is here, although they've always been open, they were big on Linux early on. >> Yes. >> But now you're seeing the ecosystem grow, so we see some scale coming, but there's still a lot of work that needs to get done. We see greatness, like Kubernetes and Serverless offering great promise and hope for either multi-cloud workflow, workload management, all those cool stuff. But there's still some work to be done. >> Steve: For sure. >> What's your take on progress, where are we, what's the ... some of those under the hood things that need to get worked on? >> Well so, progress, I think ... the funny part is our expectations have changed so much over time that, so Kubernetes is about a little over two years old, and we're all like, oh it's moving so s-- why is it not doing this, this, and this? Whereas if this was like 10 years ago, the rate at which Kubernetes is moving is phenomenal. So, basically, every quarter there is a new release of Kubernetes, and we basically built OpenShift as a distribution on top of Kubernetes, and so we're delivering to our customers every quarter as well, and a bunch of them are like, "This is too fast, this is too fast, "like, we can't integrate all these changes." But at the same time, they say, "But don't slow down." Because, "Oh, next release we're going to get this thing "that we want and we know we want to go to that release." So, I think Kubernetes definitely has more growing room, but the thing is, how much it's already being seen as the standard, it's the ... so the way I like to talk about it, and I'll talk about this in my talk later, I think for Red Hat, Kubernetes is the cloud Linux kernel. It's the exact same story all over again. It's this infrastructure that everybody's going to build on. Now there are people who are standing up OpenStack on Kubernetes, or on OpenShift. So basically saying, "I don't want to install and manage "my Openstack, it's too difficult. "Give me some JSON and some components "and I'll just use Kubernetes as my operating plane." >> We saw Kubernetes right out of the gates, Stu and I, at the first Cube-Con, we were present at creation, and just on the doorstep of that thing just unfolded, and we saw the orchestration piece is huge, but I want to get your take if you can share with the audience, why Kubernetes has taken the world by storm. Why is it so relevant? What's all the hubbub about with Kubernetes? Share your opinion. >> Okay, so remember ... okay so this is a red shirt, and remember I work at Red Hat, so this obviously a biased opinion. I want to be up front about that. >> John: In your biased opinion ... >> Right, well as opposed to a neutral opinion, right, we definitely, so, I say that in front of my audiences just so that ... go do your own research, but from my perspective and what I've seen in the market place, there was a lot of orchestration and scheduling out there, then it kind of narrowed down, there's three players I would say right now. The three players all end with Kubernetes, but I just started with it (laughs). There's Kubernetes, there is Mesosphere, and there's Docker Swarm. I see those as being the three that are out there right now. And I think the reason we're ... So I won't talk about the others, but I see those ... Why Kubernetes has won is, one, community. So they have done a great job of being upstream, working with all people, being a very open community, open to working with others, not trying to make things just so it benefits Google's business but to benefit everybody. The other reason is the size of that community, right, everybody working together. The third is I think they, so some of it's luck, right? >> John: Yeah, timing is everything. >> Timing is everything. >> John: You're on a wave, and you're on your board and a big wave comes, you surf it, right? >> That's exactly, so I think what happened with Mesosphere is they're a great scheduler, and a lot of people said they were the best scheduler to start with. But they didn't really focus on containers to start with and it seems like they missed ... Like, Kubernetes said, "No, it's all about containers "and we're going to focus on container workload." And that's right where everybody else was. And so it was like, "I don't want to write "all that extra stuff from Mesosphere. "I want to do it with Kubernetes 'cause that's containers." And so that's the bit of luck lining up with the market. So I'd say it's the community but also recognizing that it's about containers to start with and containers are kind of taking over. >> Yeah, Steve, take us inside containers. You're wearing a shirt that says "Linux is Containers" on the front, if our audience could see the back it says "Containers are Linux." >> Steve: Exactly. >> Of course, Red Hat heavily involved. You're in the weeds, dealing with things that we're doing to make stability of containers, make sure it works in other environments. Tell us some of the things you're working on, some of the projects, and the like. >> So, some of the projects I'll be showing today, one is based off of OpenScap, Open S-C-A-P, it's another open consortium for scanning for vulnerabilities. We've written something called Atomic Scan, so it can take any OpenScap provider, plug it in to Atomic Scan, and you can scan a container image without having to actually run it. So, you don't actually have to start it up, it actually just goes in. The other thing I'm going to be talking about today is Bilda, this is part of the CNCF stuff. This is the ability to actually build a runC-compatible container without ever using Docker or MOBI. The way, a totally different approach to it, what you basically do is you say, "I want this container from this other container, or from blank," then you have a container there and then you actually mount the file system. So rather than actually booting a container and doing all sorts of steps in the container itself, you actually mount the file system, do normal operations on your machine like it was your normal file system, and then actually commit at the end. So it's another way for some of our customers that really like that idea of how they want to build and manage containers. But also, there's a bunch more. There's Kryo, which is the common runtime interface, and the implementation of it, so that Kubernetes can now run on an alternative container technology. This is Kryo, it's agnostic. If you looked at Kelsey Hightower's latest "Kubernetes and Anger," I think, or "Kubernetes the Hard Way" or something. His latest is building it all on Kryo. So rather than running on Docker, it runs ... All your container running happens on Kryo. I'm not trying to say, well of course I think it's better, but I think the point that we're really seeing is, by everything moving in to CNCF and the Linux Foundation and getting around standards, it's really enabled the ecosystem to take off. Like, TekTonic and CoreOS have done that with Rocket. We're going to see a lot more blossoming. The fertilizer has been applied, back from our ... >> Yeah, CNCF of two years old, I mean their fertilizer down big time, you got the manure and all the thousand flowers are blooming from that. >> Yeah, between Prometheus, I mean just, Prometheus, Istio, there's just ... I can't even keep track of it all. >> So Steve, you were talking earlier. Customers are having a hard time with that quarterly release. >> Steve: Yes. >> How do they keep up with all these projects, I mean you know, we rattled through all of 'em. You've got 'em all down pat, but the typical customer, do they need to worry about what do they have to focus on, how do they keep up with the pace change, how do they absorb all of this? >> Okay so it highly depends on the customer. There are some customers who are not our customers, I'll just say users, who are advanced enough on their own, who they're out there basically just, they're consuming the tip of what's coming out of CNCF. All that stuff, and they're picking and choosing and they're doing that all. For Red Hat, a lot of our customers are, "I like all that technology, you're our trusted advisor, "when you release it as a product "and I know I can sit on it for three years, "because you'll support it for at least three years, "maybe five years, then I'm going to start to consume it "and you'll actually probably put it into a more usable form for me." 'Cause a lot of the upstream stuff isn't necessary made direct for consumption. >> How are you guys dealing with the growth prospects. We've been talking about this all morning, this has been the big theme of this show is, not only just the renaming of a variety of different events, LinuxCon, but Open Source Summit is an encapsulation of all the projects that are blossoming across the board. So, the scale issues, and as a participant, Red Hat, >> Steve: Yes. >> Your biased opinion, but you're also incentive and you guys are active in the community. The growth that's coming is going to put pressure on the system. It may change the relationship between communities and vendors and how they're all working together, so again, to use the river analogy, there's a lot of water going to be pumping through the system. And so how's that going to impact the ecosystem, is it going to be the great growth that could flood everything, is there a potential for that, I mean you're an ecosystem guy, so the theory is there, it's like, Jim's stepping up with the Linux Foundation. I talked to him yesterday and he recognizes it. >> Steve: Yeah. >> But he also doesn't want to get in the way, either. >> Steve: No, no, no- >> So there's a balance of leadership that's needed. Your thoughts. >> So, I mean I think one of the things ... So I mean you know the Linux kernel has its benevolent dictator, and that works well for that one community, but then you'll see something like Kubernetes, where it's much more of a community base, there is no benevolent dictator for life on Kubernetes. I think one of the nice things that the Linux Foundation has done, and which Red Hat has acknowledged is, you know, let the community govern the way that works for that community. Don't try to force necessarily one model on it. In terms of the flood part that you were talking about, I think, if you want to go back to rivers, there's cycles in terms of 10 year floods, 100 year floods, I think what we're seeing right now is a big flood, and then what'll happen out of this is some things will shake out and other things won't. I don't expect every vendor that's here to be here next year. >> And find the high ground, I mean, I mean the numbers that Jim shared in his opening keynote is by 2026, 400 million libraries are going to be out there versus today's 64 roughly million. >> Steve: Right. >> You know, Ed from Cisco thinks that's understated, but now there's more code coming in, more people, and so a new generation is coming on board. This is going to be the great flood in open source. >> I also think it's a great opportunity for some companies. I mean, I'm not high enough in Red Hat to know what we're doing in that space, but it's also a great opportunity for some companies to help with that. Like, I think, that's one of the other things that Linux Foundation did was set up the Javascript Foundation. That is a community that-- >> But that doesn't have Node.js, it's a little bit separate. >> No, I know, but think-- >> You're talking about the js, okay. >> But I'm talking about, but if you think about the client-side javascript, forget Node. Just think about client-side javascript and how many frameworks are coming up all the time, and new libraries. >> Stu: That's a challenge. >> So I think actually that community could be one that could be good to maybe gain some lessons from, as things happen more in open source. I think there are other open source communities. Like, I'm wondering like GNOME-- >> But the feedback on the js community is that there's a lot of challenges in the volume of things happening. >> And that's coming for us though, right? >> Yeah. >> That's what's coming, that's what's going to come for this larger ecosystem, so I think maybe there's market opportunity, maybe there's new governance models, maybe there's ... I mean, this is where innovation comes from. There's a new problem that's come, it's a good problem. >> Your next point of failure is your opportunity to innovate. >> Exactly, and it's a good problem to have, right, as opposed to, we have too few projects, and we don't really, no one really likes them. Instead, now it's like, we've got so many projects and people are contributing, and everybody's excited, how do we manage that excitement? >> So another dynamic that we're observing, and again we're just speculating, we're pontificating, we're opining ... is fashion. Fashion, fashionable projects. Never fight fashion, my philosophy is. In marketing, don't fight the fashion. >> Steve: Right. >> CNCF is fashionable right now, people love it. It's popular, it's trendy, it's the hip new night club if you will in open source. Other projects are just as relevant. So, relevance and trending sometimes can be misconstrued. How do you guys think about that, because this is a dynamic, everyone wants to go to the best party. There a fear of missing out, I'm going to go check out Kubernetes, but also relevance matters. >> Yes. >> John: Your thoughts. >> So I've seen this discussion internally in engineering all the time, when we're talking about, 'cause you know OpenShift is trying to build a real distribution, not like, "Oh here is Kubernetes," but a real distribution. Like when Red Hat ships you the Linux, gives you Linux, we don't just say, "Here's the Linux kernel, have a good time." We put a whole bunch of stuff around it, and we're trying to do that with Kubernetes as well, so we're constantly evaluating all the like, "Should we switch to Prometheus now, "when's the time to switch to Prometheus? "Oh it's trending really hot. "Oh but does it give us the features?" >> John: It's a balance. >> It's a balance, it's going to have to come down to, I hate to say it-- >> It's a community, people vote with their code, so if something has traction, you got to take a look at it. >> But I would say, and this has been going on for a while, and I've seen other people talk about it, if you are the lead on an open source project, and you want a lot of community, you have to get into marketing. You can't just do-- >> John: You got to market the project. >> You got to, and not in the nasty term of market, which is that I'm going to lie to you and like, what a lot of developers think about like, "Oh I'm just going to give you bullshit and lie to you, "and it's not going to be helpful." No, market in terms of just getting your word out there so at least people know about it. Lead with all your-- >> John: Socialize it. >> Yeah. I mean, that's what you got to get it, so there is a lot of chatter now. How do you get it noticed as a Twitter person, right? You have to do some, it's the same, it's going to be more like that for open source projects. >> John: So we're doing our share to kind of extract the signal from some of the noise out there, and it's great to talk to you about it because you help give perspective. And certainly Red Hat, you're biased, that's okay, you're biased. Now, take your Red Hat off. >> Okay. >> Hat off. Take your Red Hat hat off >> Steve: Propaganda hat off. >> and put your neutral hat on. An observation of Open Source Summit, I'll see that name change kind of significance in the sense it's a big ten event. This event here, what's your thoughts on what it means? >> Hey c'mon Steve, you've got a PhD in ecology, so we want some detailed analysis as to how this all goes together. >> I mean it's good marketing, Open Source Summit, good name change, little bit broader. >> I'm actually glad for it. So, I've gone to some other smaller events, and I actually like this, because it was hard for me to get to the smaller events, or to get quite enough people. Like this actually builds a critical mass, and more cross-fertilization, right, so it's much easier for me to talk to containers to car people. 'Cause automotive Linux is here as well, right? >> John: You can't avoid it, you see 'em in the hallways, you can say, "Hey, let's chat." >> "Let's talk about that stuff," whereas in the small ... So, you know, this is more about conferences. There's a good side and a bad side to everything, just like I tell my kids, "When you pick up a stick, you also have to pick up the other end of the stick." You can't just like have, "Oh this is a great part," but you don't get the bad part. So the great part about this, really easy to see a lot of people, see a lot of interesting things that are happening. Bad part about this, it's going to be hard, like if this was just CNCF, everybody here would be CNCF, all the talks would be CNCF, it's like you could deep dive and really go. So, I think this is great that they have this. I don't think this gets, should get rid of smaller, more focused events. >> Well at CubeCon, our CubeCon, the CNCF event in Austin, we'll be there for The Cube. That will be CNCF all the time. >> Steve: Exactly. I'm glad they're still doing that. >> So they're going to have the satellite event, and I think that's the best way to do it. I think a big ten event like this is good because, this is small even today, but with the growth coming, it'll be convention hall size in a matter of years. >> Well, exactly, and the fact that you made it into a big, and the fact that you've made it into this cohesive event, rather than going to somebody and saying, "Hey, sponsor these five events." Like, No. Sponsor this one big event, and then we'll get most of the people here for you. >> It's also a celebration, too. A lot of these big ten events are ... 'Cause education you can get online, there are all kinds of collaboration tools online, but when you have these big ten events, one of the rare things is it's the face to face, people-centric, in the moment, engagement. So you're learning in a different way. It's a celebration. So I think open source is just too important right now, that this event will grow in my opinion. >> Steve: For sure. >> Bring even thousands and thousands of people. >> I mean, another way-- >> John: 30,000 at some point, easily. >> Yeah, I think definitely it's theirs to lose, let's put it that way. >> John: (laughing) I'll tell that to Jim "Hey, don't screw it up!" >> Don't screw it up. I think the way that you could almost think of this is OSS-Con, right, instead of Comic-Con, this is like, this can become OSS-Con, which is like, they should probably ... In the same way that the Kubernetes Foundation works and grows with a lot of other people, it would be great if they could bring in other Foundations as well to this. I know this is being run by the Linux, but it'd be great if we could get some Apache in here, some Eclipse in here, I mean that would just be-- >> John: A total home run. >> Those foundations bringing it in-- >> That would truly make it an open source summit. >> Yeah, exactly, as opposed to the World Series that's only in the United States. >> Yeah. (laughing) >> Although you know, I was at a hotel recently, and they had baseball on, it was little league baseball though. Their World Series is actually, Little League World Series is actually the World Series. >> John: It's a global World Series. >> Yeah, like their-- >> John: It's the world. >> Yeah, as opposed to the MLB, right? >> Alright, Steve, great to have you on, any final thoughts on interactions you've had, things you've learned from this event you'd like to share and pass on? >> No, I just think the space is great, I'm really excited to be in it. I'm starting to move a little bit more up to the application tier at my role at the company and I'm excited about that, to actually ... So I've been working down at the container tier, and orchestration tier for a while, and now I'm excited to get back to like, "Well now let's actually build some cool stuff "and see what this enables on the up--" >> And DevOps is going mainstream, which is a great trend, you're starting to see that momentum beachhead on the enterprises, so-- >> Oh, one takeaway message, for microservices people, please put an Ops person on your microservice team. Usually they start with the DBA, and then they say the middle person and the front-end people. I really want to make sure that they start including Ops in your microservice teams-- >> John: And why is that, what'd you learn there? >> Well because if you're going to do microservices, you're going to be, the team's going to end up doing Ops-y work. And it's kind of foolish not to bring in someone who already knows ... The reason you want all the team together is because they're going to own that. And you also want them to share knowledge. So, if I was on a microservice team, I would definitely want an Ops person teaching me how to do Ops for our stuff. I don't want to reinvent that myself. >> You got to have the right core competencies on that team. >> Steve: Yeah. It's like having the right people in the right position. >> Steve: Exactly. >> Skill player. >> Steve: Yeah, exactly. Okay we're here live in Los Angeles, The Cube's coverage of Open Source Summit North America. I'm John Furrier, Stu Miniman. More live coverage after this short break. (electronic music)

>> Narrator: Live, from Santa Clara in the heart of Silicon Valley, it's theCUBE. Covering Cloud Foundry Summit 2017. Brought to you by the Cloud Foundry Foundation and Pivotal. >> Hi this is Stu Miniman, joined with my cohost, John Troyer. Happy to welcome to the program a first-time guest, Chip Childers, who's the CTO of the Cloud Foundry Foundation. Chip, fresh off the keynote stage, >> Yep. >> how's everything going? >> It's going great. We're really happy with the turnout of the conference. We are really happy with the number of large enterprises that are here to share their story. The really active vendor ecosystem around the project. It's great. It's a wonderful event so far. >> Yeah, I was looking back, I think the last time I came to the Cloud Foundry Show, it was before the Foundation existed, We were in the Hilton in San Francisco, it was obviously a way smaller group. Tell us kind of the goals of the Foundation, doing the event, bringing the community in. >> Yeah, you can think about our goals as being of course, we're the stewards of the intellectual property, the actual software that the vendors distribute. We see our role in the ecosystem as being really two key things. One: we're focused on supporting the users, the customers, and the direct uses of the Open Source software. That's first and foremost. Second though, we want to make sure there is a really robust market ecosystem that is wrapped around this project, right. Both in terms of the distribution, the regional providers that offer Cloud Foundry based services, but also large system integrators that are helping those customers go through digital transformation. Re-platform applications, you know really figure out their way through this process. So, it's all about supporting the users and then supporting the market around it. >> Yeah, as we go to a lot of these events, you know, there are certain themes that emerge. There were two big ones that both of them showed up in what you did in the Keynote. Number one is Multicloud, number two is you got all of these various open sourced pieces, >> Chip: Yep. you know, what fits together, what interlocks together, you know which ones sit side by side. Why don't we start with kind of the open source piece first? Because you're heavily involved in a lot of those. Cloud Foundry, you know, what are the new pieces that are bolting on, or sitting on top, or digging into it, and what's going on there? >> You know, I think first I want to start with a basic philosophy of our upstream community. There are billions of dollars that rely on this platform today. And that continues to grow. Right, because we're showing up in Fortune 500, Global 2000, as well as lots of small start-ups, that are using Cloud Foundry to get code shipped faster. So our community that builds the UpStream software, spends a lot of time being very thoughtful about their technical decisions. So what we release and that what gets productized by the down streams is a complete system. From operating system all the way up to including the various programming languages and frameworks and everything in between. And because we release a complete platform, at a really high velocity, so many people rely on it's quality, we're very thoughtful about when is the right time to build our own, when should we adopt and embrace and continue to support another OpenSource project, so we spend a lot of time really thinking about that. And the areas today that I highlight around specific collaborations include the Open Service Broker API which we actually spun out of being just a Club Foundry implementation. And we embrace other communities, and found a way to share the governance of that. So we move forward as a big industry together. >> Stu: Yeah and speaking on that a little bit more. Very interesting to see. I saw Red Hat for instance speaking with Open Shift, Kubernetes is there. So, how should customers think about this? Are the path wars over? Now you can choose all the pieces that you want? Or, it's probably oversimplifying it. >> I think it's over simplifying it, it depends. You can go try to build your own platform if you want, through a number of serious components, or you can just use something like Cloud Foundry, that has solve for that. But the important thing is that we have specifically designed Cloud Foundry to allow for the backing services to come from anywhere. And so, it's both a differentiator for the various distributions of Cloud Foundry, but also an opportunity for Cloud providers, and even more importantly, it's an opportunity for the enterprise users that live in complex worlds, right? They're going to have multiple platforms, they're going be multiple levels of abstraction from Bms to containers, you know, to the path abstraction even event driven frameworks. We want that all to work really well together. Regardless of the choices you make, because that's what's most valuable to the customers. >> Okay, the other piece, networking you talked about. Why don't you share. >> Yeah, yeah so, besides the Service Broker API, we've added support for what's called Container to Container Networking. I don't necessarily need to dig into the details there, but let's just say that when you're building microservices that the application that the user is experiencing is actually a combination of a lot of different applications. That all talk to each other and rely on each other. So we want to make sure there's a policy-based framework for describing how the webs here is going to talk to the authentication service or is going to talk to the booking service, or the inventory service. They all need to have rules about how they communicate with each other. And we want to do that in the most efficient way possible. So we've adopted the Containing Networking interface as the standard plugin that is now at CNCF, the Cloud Native Computing Foundation. We think it's the right abstraction, we think it's great. It gives us access to all the fascinating work that is going on around software networking, overlay networking, industry standard API plugin to our policy-driven framework. >> Along the same theme, Kubo, a big new news project also kind of integration of some Cloud Foundry concepts with a broader ecosystem, in this case another CNCF project, Kubernetes. Could you speak a little bit to that? >> The Kubernetes community is doing a great job creating great container driven experience. You know that abstraction is all about the container. It's not about, you know, the code. So it's different than Cloud Foundry. There are workloads that make sense to run in one or the other. And we want to make sure that they run really well. Right, so the problem that we're solving with the Kuber project is what deploys Kubernetes? What supports Kubernetes if there is an infrastructure adage and a node goes offline? Right, because it does a great job of restarting containers, but if you have ten nodes in a cluster, and then now you're down to nine, that's a problem. So what Bosh does, is it takes care of solving the node outage level problem. You can also do rolling upgrades that are seamless, no downtime for the Kubernetes cluster. It brings a level of operational maturity to the Kubernetes users that they may not have had otherwise. >> Chip, can you bring us inside a little bit the creation of Kubo, is that something that the market and customers drove towards you? I talked to a couple other Cloud Foundry ecosystem members that were doing some other ways of integrating in Kubernetes. So what lead to this way of deploying it with Bosh? >> Yeah, absolutely so, it came out of a direct collaboration between Pivotal and Google. And it was driven based on Pivotal customer demand. It also, if you speak with people from Google that are involved in the project, they also see it as a need, for the Kubernetes ecosystem. So it's driven based on real-world large financial services companies that wanted to have the multiple abstractions available, they wanted to do it with a common operational platform that is proven mature that they've already adopted. And then as that collaboration board, the fruit of the project, and it was announced by Pivotal and Google several months back, they realized that they needed to move it to the vendor neutral locations so that we can continue to expand the community that can work on it, that can build up the story. >> The other topic I raised at the beginning of the interview, was the Multicloud. So in a panel, Microsoft, Google, MTC for Amazon was there. All of the Cloud guys are going to tell you we have the best platform and can do the best things for you. >> Of course they do. >> How do you balance the "We want to live in a multicultural Cloud world" and be able to go there versus "Oh I'm going to take standard plus and get in a little bit deeper to make sure that we're stickier with the customers there." What role does Cloud Foundry play? What have you seen in the marketplace for that? >> Well the public lab providers are, if you look at the services that they offer, you can roughly categorize them with two things. One, are the infrastructure building blocks. Two, are the higher level services, like their database capabilities, their analytics capabilities, log aggregation, you know, and they all have a portfolio that varies, some have specific things that are very similar. So when we talk about MultiCloud we talk about Cloud Foundry as a way to make use of those common capabilities, now they're going to differentiate based on speeds and feeds, availability, whatever they choose to, but you can then as a user have choice. And then secondarily, that Open Service Broker initiative is what's really about saying "great, there's also all these really valuable additional capabilities, that, as a user, I may choose to integrate with a Google machine learning-service, or I may choose to integrate with a wonderful Microsoft capability, or an Amazon capability." And we just want to make that easy for a developer to make that choice. >> Chip, Cloud Founder was very early in terms of a concept of a platform of services, let's not call it platform as a service right now. But you know, this platform that going to make developers lives easier, multi-target, MultiCloud we call it now, on from your laptop to anywhere. And it's been a really interesting discussion over the last couple years as this parallel container thread can come up with Kubernetes and Mesosphere and all the orchestration tools, and the focus has been on orchestration tools. And I've always thought Cloud Foundry was kind of way ahead of the game in saying "wait a minute, there's a set of services that you're going to have for full life-cycles, day two operation, at scale that you all are going to have to pull together from components." As we're doing this interview here, and this year at Cloud Foundry Summit are there anything that you think people don't kind of realize that over and over again people who are using Cloud Foundry go, "Wow I'm really glad "I had logging or identity management," or what are some of the frameworks that people sometimes don't realize is in there that actually is a huge time-savor. >> Yeah, there are a lot of operational capabilities in the Cloud Foundry platform. When you include both our Bosh layer, as well as the elastic runtime which is in the developer centers experience-- >> John: Anything that people don't often realize is in there? >> Well, I think that the right way to think of it is, it's all the things you need in one application, right? So we've been doing this for years as developers. In the applications operators team, we've been doing it. We've just been doing it via bunch of tickets, we've been doing it via bunch of scripts. What Cloud Foundry does is it takes all of those capabilities you need to really trust a platform to operate something on your behalf, and give you the right view into it, right? The appropriate telemetry, log aggregation, and know that there's going to be help monitoring there. It makes it really easy. Right, so we were talking earlier about the haiku, that Onsi Fakhouri from Pivotal had authored, it's appropriate. It's a promise that a platform makes. And platforms designed to let a user trust that the declarative nature of asking a platform to do X, Y, or Z, will be delivered. >> Chip, we've been hearing Pivotal talks a lot about Spring, when Cloud Foundry's involved. Is it so much so that the Foundation needs to be behind that, or support that? How does that interact and work? >> Well, we're super supportive of all the languages in the framework communities that are out there. You know, even if you pick a particular vendor, Pivotal in this case has a very strong investment in the Spring, Spring Cloud, Spring Boot, they're doing really amazing things. But that's also, it's our software, you know, they steward that community, so all the other vendors actually get the advantage of that. Let's take Dot Net and Microsoft. Microsoft open sourced Dot Net. So now you can run Dot Net applications on Linux. They're embrace of the container details and the APIs and their operating system is making it so that now it can also run on Windows. So the whole Microsoft technology stack, languages and frameworks, they matter quite a bit to the enterprise as well. So we see ourselves as supportive of all of these communities, right? Even ones like the Ruby community. When there's an enterprise developer that chooses to use something like Ruby, with the Ruby on Rails framework, if they use Cloud Foundry, they're getting the latest and greatest version of that language, framework, they know that it's secure, they know that it's going to be patched for them. So it's actually a great experience for that developer, that's working with the language. So, we like to support all of them, we're big fans of any that work really well with the platform and maybe integrate deeper. But it's a polyglot platform. >> We want to give you the final word. People take away from Cloud Foundry Summit 2017, what would you want them to take away? >> Yeah the simple takeaway that I can give you is that this is an absolutely enterprise grade open source ecosystem. And you don't hear that often, right? Because normally we talk about products, being enterprise great. >> Did somebody say in the keynote enterprise great mean that there's a huge salesforce that's going to try sell you stuff? (Chip laughs) Well that's coming from the buying side of the market for years. And you know, it was a bit of a joke. What is "enterprise great?" Well, it means that there's a piece of paper that says, this product will cost x dollars and the salesperson is offering it to you. So of course it's going to be enterprise great. But really, we see it as four key things, right? It's about security, it's about being well-integrated, it's about being able to scale to the needs of even the largest enterprises, and it's also about that great developer experience. So, Cloud Foundry is an ecosystem and all of our downstream distributions get the advantage of this really robust and mature technical community that is producing this software. >> Chip, really appreciate you sharing all the updates with us, and appreciate the foundation's support to bring theCUBE here. We'll be back with lots more coverage here from The Cloud Foundry Summit 2017, you're watching theCUBE. (techno music)