>>Hello everyone. My name is Savannah Peterson, coming to you live from the Kim Con Show floor on the cube here in Detroit, Michigan. The energy is pulsing big event for the Cloud Native Foundation, and I'm joined by John Furrier on my left. John. Hello. >>Great, great, great to have you on the cube. Thanks for being our new host. You look great, Great segment coming up. I'm looking forward to this. Savannah, this is a great segment. A cube alumni, an OG in the cloud, native world or cloud aati. I, as I call it, been there, done that. A lot of respect, a lot of doing some really amazing, I call it the super cloud holy grail. But we'll see >>Your favorite word, >>This favorite word, It's a really strong segment. Looking forward to hearing from this guest. >>Yes, I am very excited and I'm gonna let him tee it up a little bit. But our guest and his project were actually mentioned in the opening keynote this morning, which is very, very exciting. Ladies and gentlemen, please welcome Baam Tobar Baam, thanks for being here with >>Us. Thank you guys. So good to be back here on the show and, and this exciting energy around us. So it was super, super awesome to be here. >>Yeah, it feels great. So let's start with the opening keynote. Did you know you were gonna get that shout out? >>No, not at all. I, it was, it was really cool to see, you know, I think Cruz was up there talking about how they were building their own platform for autonomous cars and what's running behind it. And they mentioned all these projects and you know, we were like, Wow, that sounds super familiar. And then, then, and then they said, Okay, yeah, we we're, you know, cross plane. They mentioned cross plane, they mentioned, Upbound mentioned the work that we're doing in this space to help folks effectively run, you know, their own layer on top of cloud computing. >>And then Tom, we've known each other, >>We're gonna do a bingo super cloud. So how many times is this Super cloud? So >>Super Cloud is super services, super apps around us. He enables a lot of great things that Brian Grace had a great podcast this week on super services. So it's super, super exciting, >>Super great time on the queue. Super, >>Super >>Cloud conversation. All seriously. Now we've known each other for a long time. You've been to every cub com, you've been in open source, you've seen the seen where it's been, where it is now. Super exciting that in mainstream conversations we're talking about super cloud extractions and around interoperability. Things that were once like really hard to do back, even back on the opens stack days. Now we're at a primetime spot where the control plane, the data planes are in play as a viable architectural component of all the biggest conversations. Yeah, you're in the middle of it. What's your take on it? Give some perspective of why this is so important. >>I mean, look, the key here is to standardize, right? Get to standardization, right? And, and what we saw, like early days of cloud native, it was mostly around Kubernetes, but it was Kubernetes as a, you know, essentially a container orchestrator, the container of wars, Docker, Mesos, et cetera. And then Kubernetes emerged as a, a, the winner in containers, right? But containers is a workload, one kind of workload. It's, I run containers on it, not everything's containers, right? And the, you know, what we're seeing now is the Kubernetes API is emerging as a way to standardize on literally everything in cloud. Not just containers, but you know, VMs, serverless, Lambda, et cetera, storage databases that all using a common approach, a common API layer, a common way to do access control, a common way to do policy, all built around open source projects and you know, the cloud data of ecosystem that you were seeing around here. And that's exciting cuz we've, for the first time we're arriving at some kind of standardization. >>Every major inflection point has this defacto standard evolution, then it becomes kind of commonplace. Great. I agree with Kubernetes. The question I wanted to ask you is what's the impact to the DevOps community? DevSecOps absolutely dominated the playbook, if you will. Developers we're saying we'll run companies cuz they'll be running the applications. It's not a department anymore. Yes, it is the business. If you believe the digital transformation finds its final conclusion, which it will at some point. So more developers doing more, ask more stuff. >>Look, if you, I'd be hard pressed to find somebody that's has a title of DevOps or SRE that can't at least spell Kubernetes, if not running in production, right? And so from that perspective, I think this is a welcome change. Standardize on something that's already familiar to everyone is actually really powerful. They don't have to go, Okay, we learned Kubernetes, now you guys are taking us down a different path of standardization. Or something else has emerged. It's the same thing. It's like we have what, eight years now of cloud native roughly. And, and people in the DevOps space welcome a change where they are basically standardizing on things that are working right? They're actually working right? And they could be used in more use cases, in more scenarios than they're actually, you know, become versatile. They become, you know, ubiquitous as >>You will take a minute to just explain what you guys are selling and doing. What's the product, what's the traction, why are people using you? What's the big, big mo position value statement you guys think? >>Yeah, so, so, so the, my company's called Upbound and where the, where the folks behind the, the cross plane project and cross plane is effective, takes Kubernetes and extends it to beyond containers and to ev managing everything in cloud, right? So if you think about that, if you love the model where you're like, I, I go to Kubernetes cluster and I tell it to run a bunch of containers and it does it for me and I walk away, you can do that for the rest of the surface area of cloud, including your VMs and your storage and across cloud vendors, hybrid models, All of it works in a consistent standardized way, you know, using crossline, right? And I found >>What do you solve? What do you solve or eliminate? What happens? Why does this work? Are you replacing something? Are you extracting away something? Are you changing >>Something? I think we're layering on top of things that people have, right? So, so you'll see people are organized differently. We see a common pattern now where there's shared services teams or platform teams as you hear within enterprises that are responsible for basically managing infrastructure and offering a self-service experience to developers, right? Those teams are all about standardization. They're all about creating things that help them reduce the toil, manage things in a common way, and then offer self-service abstractions to their, you know, developers and customers. So they don't have to be in the middle of every request. Things can go faster. We're seeing a pattern now where the, these teams are standardizing on the Kubernetes API or standardizing on cross plane and standardizing on things that make their life easier, right? They don't have to replace what they're doing, they just have to layer and use it. And I layer it's probably a, an opening for you that makes it sound >>More complex, I think, than what you're actually trying to do. I mean, you as a company are all about velocity as an ethos, which I think is great. Do you think that standardization is the key in increasing velocity for teams leveraging both cross claim, Kubernetes? Anyone here? >>Look, I mean, everybody's trying to achieve the same thing. Everybody wants to go faster, they want to innovate faster. They don't want tech to be the friction to innovation, right? Right. They want, they wanna go from feature to production in minutes, right? And so, or less to that extent, standardization is a way to achieve that. It's not the only way to achieve that. It's, it's means to achieve that. And if you've standardized, that means that less people are involved. You can automate more, you can st you can centralize. And by doing that, that means you can innovate faster. And if you don't innovate these days, you're in trouble. Yeah. You're outta business. >>Do you think that, so Kubernetes has a bit of a reputation for complexity. You're obviously creating a tool that makes things easier as you apply Kubernetes outside just an orchestration and container environment. Do you, what do you see those advantages being across the spectrum of tools that people are leveraging you >>For? Yeah, I mean, look, if Kubernetes is a platform, right? To build other things on top of, and as a, as a result, it's something that's used to kind of on the back end. Like you would never, you should put something in front of Kubernetes as an application model or consumption interface of portals or Right, Yeah. To give zero teams. But you should still capture all your policies, you know, automation and compliance governance at the Kubernetes layer, right? At the, or with cross plane at that layer as well, right? Right. And so if you follow that model, you can get the best of world both worlds. You standardize, you centralize, you are able to have, you know, common controls and policies and everything else, but you can expose something that's a dev friendly experience on top of as well. So you get the both, both the best of both worlds. >>So the problem with infrastructure is code you're saying is, is that it's not this new layer to go across environments. Does that? No, >>Infrastructure is code works slightly differently. I mean, you, you can, you can write, you know, infrastructures, codes using whatever tooling you like to go across environments. The problem with is that everybody has to learn a specific language or has to work with understanding the constructs. There's the beauty of the Kubernetes based approach and the cross playing best approach is that it puts APIs first, right? It's basically saying, look, kind of like the API meant that it, that led to AWS being created, right? Teams should interact with APIs. They're super strong contracts, right? They're visionable. Yeah. And if you, if you do that and that's kind of the power of this approach, then you can actually reach a really high level of automation and a really high level of >>Innovation. And this also just not to bring in the clouds here, but this might bring up the idea that common services create interoperability, but yet the hyper scale clouds could still differentiate on value very much faster processors if it's silicon to better functions if glam, right? I mean, so there's still, it's not killing innovation. >>It is not, And in fact I, you know, this idea of building something that looks like the lowest common denominator across clouds, we don't actually see that in practice, right? People want, people want to use the best services available to them because they don't have time to go, you know, build portability layers and everything else. But they still, even in that model want to standardize on how to call these services, how to set policy on them, how to set access control, how to actually invoke them. If you can standardize on that, you can still, you get the, you get to use these services and you get the benefits of standardization. >>Well Savannah, we were talking about this, about the Berkeley paper that came out in May, which is kind of a super cloud version they call sky computing. Their argument is that if you try to standardize too much like the old kind of OSI model back in the day, you actually gonna, the work innovations gonna stunt the growth. Do you agree with that? And how do you see, because standardization is not so much a spec and it it, it e f thing. It's not an i e committee. Yeah. It's not like that's kind of standard. It's more of defacto, >>I mean look, we've had standards emerge like, you know, if you look at my S SQL for example, and the Postgres movement, like there are now lots of vendors that offer interfaces that support Postgres even though they're differentiated completely on how it's implement. So you see that if you can stick to open interfaces and use services that offer them that tons of differentiation yet still, you know, some kind of open interface if you will. But there are also differentiated services that are, don't have open interfaces and that's okay too. As long as you're able to kind of find a way to manage them in a consistent way. I think you sh and it makes sense to your business, you should use >>Them. So enterprises like this and just not to get into the business model side real quick, but like how you guys making money? You got the project, you get the cross playing project, that's community. You guys charging what's, what's the business model? >>We we're in the business of helping people adopt and run controlled lanes that do all this management service managed service services and customer support and services, the, the plethora of things that people need where we're >>Keeping the project while >>Keeping the project. >>Correct. So that's >>The key. That's correct. Yeah. You have to balance both >>And you're all over the show. I mean, outside of the keynote mention looking here, you have four events on where can people find you if they're tuning in. We're just at the beginning and there's a lot of looks here. >>Upbound at IO is the place to find Upbound and where I have a lot of talks, you'll see Crossline mention and lots of talks and a number of talks today. We have a happy hour later today we've got a booth set up. So >>I'll be there folks. Just fyi >>And everyone will be there now. Yeah. Quick update. What's up? What's new with the cross plane project? Can you share a little commercial? What's the most important stories going on there? >>So cross plane is growing obviously, and we're seeing a ton of adoption of cross plane, especially actually in large enterprise, which is really exciting cuz they're usually the slow to move and cross plane is so central, so it's now in hundreds and thousands of deployments in woohoo, which is amazing to see. And so the, the project itself is adding a ton of features, reducing friction in terms of adoption, how people ride these control planes and alter them coverage of the space. As you know, controls are only useful when you connect them to things. And the space is like the amount of things you can connect control planes to is increasing on a day to day basis and the maturity is increasing. So it's just super exciting to see all of this right >>Now. How would you categorize the landscape? We were just talking earlier in another segment, we're in Detroit Motor City, you know, it's like teaching someone how to drive a car. Kubernetes pluss, okay, switch the gears like, you know, don't hit the other guy. You know? Now once you learn how to drive, they want a sports car. How do you keep them that progression going? How do you keep people to grow continuously? Where do you see the DevOps and or folks that are doing cross playing that are API hardcore? Cause that's a good IQ that shows 'em that they're advancing. Where's the IQ level of advancement relative to the industry? Is the adoption just like, you know, getting going? Are people advancing? Yeah. Sounds like your customers are heavily down the road on >>Yeah, the way I would describe it is there's a progression happening, right? It, it DevOps was make, initially it was like how do I keep things running right? And it transitioned to how do I automate things so that I don't have to be involved when things are running, running. Right now we're seeing a next turn, which is how do I build what looks like a product that offers shared services or a platform so that people consume it like a product, right? Yeah. And now I'm now transition becomes, well I'm an, I'm a developer on a product in operations building something that looks like a product and thinking about it as a, as a has a user interface. >>Ops of the new devs. >>That's correct. Yeah. There we go. >>Talk about layers. Talk about layers on layers on >>Layers. It's not confusing at all John. >>Well, you know, when they have the architecture architectural list product that's coming. Yeah. But this is what's, I mean the Debs are got so much DevOps in the front and the C I C D pipeline, the ops teams are now retrofitting themselves to be data and security mainly. And that's just guardrails, automation policy, seeing a lot of that kind of network. Like exactly. >>Function. >>Yep. And they're, they're composing, not maybe coding a little bit, but they not, they're not >>Very much. They're in the composition, you know that as a daily thing. They're, they're writing compositions, they're building things, they're putting them together and making them work. >>How new is this in your mind? Cause you, you've watching this progress, you're in the middle of it, you're in the front wave of this. Is it adopting faster now than ever before? I mean, if we talked five years ago, we were kind of saying this might happen, but it wasn't happening today. It kind, it is, >>It's kind of, it's kind of amazing. Like, like everybody's writing these cloud services now. Everybody's authoring things that look like API services that do things on top of the structure. That move is very much, has a ton of momentum right now and it's happening mainstream. It, it's becoming mainstream. >>Speaking of momentum, but some I saw both on your LinkedIn as well as on your badge today that you are hiring. This is your opportunity to shamelessly plug. What are you looking for? What can people expect in terms of your company culture? >>Yeah, so we're obviously hiring, we're hiring both on the go to market side or we're hiring on the product and engineering side. If you want to build, well a new cloud platform, I won't say the word super cloud again, but if you want to, if you're excited about building a cloud platform that literally sits on top of, you know, the other cloud platforms and offers services on top of this, come talk to us. We're building something amazing. >>You're creating a super cloud tool kit. I'll say it >>On that note, think John Farer has now managed to get seven uses of the word super cloud into this broadcast. We sawm tomorrow. Thank you so much for joining us today. It's been a pleasure. I can't wait to see more of you throughout the course of Cuban. My name is Savannah Peterson, everyone, and thank you so much for joining us here on the Cube where we'll be live from Detroit, Michigan all week.

>> The Cube presents Dell Technologies World brought to you by Dell. >> Good evening, welcome back to the Cube's coverage of Dell Technologies World, live from the show floor in Las Vegas. Lisa Martin, Dave Vellante. We've been here two and a half days. We've unpacked a lot of announcements in the last couple days, and we're going to be doing a little bit more of that for our final segment. We've got a couple of guests joining us. Itzik Reich, the VP of the Technologist ISG at Dell and Magi Kapoor Director of Storage Product Management at Dell. Guys, welcome. >> Thank you for having us. >> So great to be back in person. I'm sure great for all of you to see customers and partners and your team that you probably haven't seen in quite a while. But Itzik we want to, we want to start with you VP of the Technologists. That sounds like a, like you need to wear a cape or something. >> Right? Yeah. I wish I do sometimes >> Talk about that role and what you do. >> Right, so our role, we have an outbound part and an inbound part. From an outbound perspective, our role is to ensure that our customers are knowing where we going from a technology perspective. And we do it via conferences or customer calls or via blogs, and think of that nature. But as important, we also have an inbound role to ensure that our employees are knowing where we're going. You can imagine they're a very large company. Not every engineer or any other role knows exactly what we are doing in that space, especially around innovation. So we also ensure that they understand it internally about where we going into that nature. And as a side role, I also have a side job which is to be responsible for our container strategy which has started couple of years ago which I'm sure we're going to talk about today. >> Yeah, that's-- >> Got a side gig. My goodness. >> That's right. >> Maggie, lots of announcements in the last couple of days. Great attendance here. Seven to 8,000 people. Dell's coming off its best year ever, north of 100 billion in revenue and FY 22, 17% year on year growth. What are some of the things that excite you about the strategic direction that Dell is going in with its partners, with the hyperscalers storage bringing it to the hyperscalers? >> Yeah. No lots of great announcements. It's been an exciting week. Like you said, it's been great to be back in person, have these face to face meetings and, you know, see the customers, have presentations in person. Like I feel like we haven't done that in forever. So it's felt really, really great. And announcements, it's been incredible. Like the two keynotes that we had on Monday and Tuesday were both incredible. And so I'd like to talk about a couple of key ones, you know, so just to let you know, I'm a director of product management and I'm responsible for a bunch of pan-ISG initiatives, DevOps and our container strategy being one of those items. And so, you know, we're at this cusp where there are, you know, customers that are on this journey of, you know, developers coming up to speed with multicloud being one of the key areas. We've heard that a lot this week, right? And what I loved about Chuck's keynote when he talked about, you know, a multicloud by default and how we're working to change that to be multicloud for design by design, right? And so what we mean by that is, and DevOps plays a very key role there, right? In the last few years developers have had this opportunity to pick different multi from different multi clouds, right? And develop the applications wherever they find the right tool sets. But that's creating havoc with IT operations because IT has worked in it in different ways, right? So what we're trying to do with DevOps is really bridge the gap between the developers and the IT ops and make it more frictionless. And project Alpine is one of the key ones to make that, you know, to bring that bridge together. Really bring that operational consistency across on-prem and the public clouds and colo facilities and Edge and everything that we've talked about. So project Alpine is really key to the success of DevOps that we're driving across. And then the other thing that I would like to call out in terms of announce and Chuck brought that up on Monday was our focus on developers. And we have a portal called developer.dell.com which we announced and launched in January of this year. Right? It's think of that as our one stop shop for all of our APIs. You heard from Caitlin, you heard from a lot of our leaders that we have been on this journey of having a API first approach to everything we're doing be it products, be it features, functionality. And so the developer portal is the place where we're putting all of our ISG APIs and not just having a one stop shop but standardizing on APIs, which is really key. >> We just spoke to Shannon Champion and Gemma from Salesforce. And we talked about how we entered last decade for visioning lungs. And now we're programming infrastructure. So really interested in your container strategy, your DevOps strategy. How did it start? How was it evolving? Where are you in the spectrum? You know, where are customers in that maturity? Let's dig in >> 2015, I believe was the year when DockerCon their CTO went on stage and they explained their customer that they shouldn't care about storage. They should design their applications running in containers in the 12 factor way, designed to fail, storage doesn't matter. And I remember scratching my head because I was hearing this one before. If there's one thing that I've learned both as a customer and later on as an employee of a storage company at the time, is that customers care about data and they care a lot about their data. Especially if it's not available. It's a bad day for the customer and possibly a very bad day for me as well. And so we actually, at the time, work with a startup called Cluster HQ to offer persistent volumes for Kubernetes. That startup eventually went down of business. But Google took over the some part of the intellectual property and came with an API called CSI. Which does not stand for your famous TV show. It's actually an acronym for container storage interface. And the CSI role in life is to be able to provide persistent volume from a storage array to Kubernetes. So we start working with Google, just like many other vendors in order to ensure that our stands outs are part of the CSI stand out. And we start to providing CSI interfaces for our storage arrays. And that's how all of these things started. We started to get more and more customers telling us I'm going all in with Kubernetes and I need you to support me in that journey. But what we've also learned is that Kubernetes similarly in a way to the open stock days is very fragmented. There are many distributions that are running on the top of Kubernetes. So seed side itself is not just the end of it. Many customer wants day to be working with VMware (indistinct) with zoo or with red OpenShift or with Rancher. So we need to do different adjustments for each one of these distributions in order to ensure that we are meeting the customer where they are today but also in the future as well. >> Yeah, and Kubernetes back in 2015 was, you know, pretty immature. We were focused on simplicity. You had Mesos doing, you know, more sophisticated things, you know, cluster HQ, obvious. And now you see Kubernetes moving into that realm tackling all those, a lot of those problems. So where does storage fit into that resilient resiliency equation? >> Yeah, so, you know, I think storages are key. What we're hearing a lot from customers is they have infrastructure in place already and they want to take advantage of cloud native and modernizing their applications whether they're the legacy applications or as they're building new applications. So how do really take advantage of the infrastructure that they have invested in? And they love, and they need. I mean, the reason why our customers love our products is because of the enterprise and the data management capabilities that we provide, right? Be it PowerMax for our gold standards on SRDF replication, for instance, they want to make sure that they leverage all of that as they are containerizing their applications. So the piece that Itzik talked about with the CSI plugins, that gives customers the opportunity to take advantage of the infrastructure that's already in place, take advantage of all the enterprise capabilities that it provides but yet take advantage of cloudifying, if I can say, the applications that they're doing, right? And then on top of that we also have what we call our CSM modules which is the container storage modules which is so, you know, going back again, we, CSI industry stack spec standards, you know, customers started to use it. And what we heard from our customers was, this is great but it has very minimum capabilities, right? Very basic ones. And we love your enterprise products. We want enterprise capabilities with it. So we've been working with CNCF very closely on, you know, working on contributions. But what we have realized is that they're, the community is still far from delivering some of these enterprise capabilities. So we came up with container storage modules which is an extension of CSI modules but to add those enterprise capabilities, you know, be it observability, be it replication, authorization, resiliency. These are the things that customers wanted to use enterprise storage when it comes to containers. And that's what we've been delivering on with our container storage modules. I do want to call out that all of our CSM modules just like CSI are all open source. That's what developers want. They don't want it closed source. And so we're listening to them and we're creating all of this in open source waiting, you know, and wanting them to contribute to the court. So it's not just us doing, you know and writing what we want but we also want the community to contribute. >> You're committing resources there, publishing them, it's all open source? >> Exactly. >> That's the contribution. >> And working with CNCF to see if they can be standardized across the board not just for Dell customers. >> Is that a project going, is that your ideal? It that becomes a project within CNCF or is it? >> That's our goal. Yes. We're definitely working and influencing. We'll see how it goes. >> More committers. Just keep throwing committers at it. >> Support these day is done via slack channel. So if we're changing the way that we run interacting with our customers that are now the developers themselves via slack channel. You don't need to call 100, 800 Dell to get a support case. >> So I'm interested in, you mentioned project Alpine, and it was very interesting to me to see that. You know, you guys talk about multicloud. I try to take it to another level. I call it super cloud and that's this abstraction layer. You know, some people laugh at that, but it has meaning. Multi-cloud is going to multivendor by default. And my premise is data ultimately is going to stay where it belongs in place. And then this mesh evolves, not my word, Jamoc Degani kind of invented. And there needs to be standards to be able to share data and govern that data. And it's wide open now. There are no standards there. And I think open sources has an opportunity as opposed to a defacto standard that would emerge. It seems to be real white space there. I think a company like Dell could provide that self-service infrastructure to those data points on the mesh and standards or software that governs that in a computational way. Is that something that's, you know, that super cloud idea is a reality from a technologist perspective? >> I think it is. So for example, Katie Gordon, which I believe you interviewed earlier this week, was demonstrating the Kubernetes data mobility aspect, which is another project. That's exactly power part of the its rational, the rationale of customers being able to move some of their Kubernetes workloads to the cloud and back and between different clouds. Why we doing it? Because customers wants to have the ability to move between different cloud providers using a common API that will be able to orchestrate all of those things with a self-service that may be offered via the apex console itself. So it's all around enabling developers and meeting them where they are today and also meeting them in tomorrow's world where they actually may have changed their mind to do those things. So, yes, we are working on all of those different aspects. >> Dell meeting the developers where they are. Guys thank you so much for joining David and me and unpacking that. We appreciate your insights and your time. >> Thank you so much for having us. >> Thank you. >> Thank you. Speaking of unpacking, Lisa. We're unpacking Dell tech world. >> They're packing up around us. Exactly. We better go. We want to thank you for watching The Cube's two and a half days of live coverage of Dell Technologies world. Dave it's been great to co-host with you, be back in person. >> Thank you Lisa. It was really a pleasure. >> Of course. My pleasure too. >> Let's do more of this. >> Let's do it! >> All right. >> We want to thank you again for watching. You can catch all of this on replay on thecube.net. We look forward to seeing you next time. (soft music)

>> From theCUBE studios in Palo Alto, in Boston, bringing you data driven insights from theCUBE and ETR. This is Breaking Analysis with Dave Vollante. >> The rise of Kubernetes came about through a combination of forces that were, in hindsight, quite a long shot. Amazon's dominance created momentum for Cloud native application development, and the need for newer and simpler experiences, beyond just easily spinning up computer as a service. This wave crashed into innovations from a startup named Docker, and a reluctant competitor in Google, that needed a way to change the game on Amazon and the Cloud. Now, add in the effort of Red Hat, which needed a new path beyond Enterprise Linux, and oh, by the way, it was just about to commit to a path of a Kubernetes alternative for OpenShift and figure out a governance structure to hurt all the cats and the ecosystem and you get the remarkable ascendancy of Kubernetes. Hello and welcome to this week's Wikibon CUBE Insights powered by ETR. In this breaking analysis, we tapped the back stories of a new documentary that explains the improbable events that led to the creation of Kubernetes. We'll share some new survey data from ETR and commentary from the many early the innovators who came on theCUBE during the exciting period since the founding of Docker in 2013, which marked a new era in computing, because we're talking about Kubernetes and developers today, the hoodie is on. And there's a new two part documentary that I just referenced, it's out and it was produced by Honeypot on Kubernetes, part one and part two, tells a story of how Kubernetes came to prominence and many of the players that made it happen. Now, a lot of these players, including Tim Hawkin Kelsey Hightower, Craig McLuckie, Joe Beda, Brian Grant Solomon Hykes, Jerry Chen and others came on theCUBE during formative years of containers going mainstream and the rise of Kubernetes. John Furrier and Stu Miniman were at the many shows we covered back then and they unpacked what was happening at the time. We'll share the commentary from the guests that they interviewed and try to add some context. Now let's start with the concept of developer defined structure, DDI. Jerry Chen was at VMware and he could see the trends that were evolving. He left VMware to become a venture capitalist at Greylock. Docker was his first investment. And he saw the future this way. >> What happens is when you define infrastructure software you can program it. You make it portable. And that the beauty of this cloud wave what I call DDI's. Now, to your point is every piece of infrastructure from storage, networking, to compute has an API, right? And, and AWS there was an early trend where S3, EBS, EC2 had API. >> As building blocks too. >> As building blocks, exactly. >> Not monolithic. >> Monolithic building blocks every little building bone block has it own API and just like Docker really is the API for this unit of the cloud enables developers to define how they want to build their applications, how to network them know as Wills talked about, and how you want to secure them and how you want to store them. And so the beauty of this generation is now developers are determining how apps are built, not just at the, you know, end user, you know, iPhone app layer the data layer, the storage layer, the networking layer. So every single level is being disrupted by this concept of a DDI and where, how you build use and actually purchase IT has changed. And you're seeing the incumbent vendors like Oracle, VMware Microsoft try to react but you're seeing a whole new generation startup. >> Now what Jerry was explaining is that this new abstraction layer that was being built here's some ETR data that quantifies that and shows where we are today. The chart shows net score or spending momentum on the vertical axis and market share which represents the pervasiveness in the survey set. So as Jerry and the innovators who created Docker saw the cloud was becoming prominent and you can see it still has spending velocity that's elevated above that 40% red line which is kind of a magic mark of momentum. And of course, it's very prominent on the X axis as well. And you see the low level infrastructure virtualization and that even floats above servers and storage and networking right. Back in 2013 the conversation with VMware. And by the way, I remember having this conversation deeply at the time with Chad Sakac was we're going to make this low level infrastructure invisible, and we intend to make virtualization invisible, IE simplified. And so, you see above the two arrows there related to containers, container orchestration and container platforms, which are abstraction layers and services above the underlying VMs and hardware. And you can see the momentum that they have right there with the cloud and AI and RPA. So you had these forces that Jerry described that were taking shape, and this picture kind of summarizes how they came together to form Kubernetes. And the upper left, Of course you see AWS and we inserted a picture from a post we did, right after the first reinvent in 2012, it was obvious to us at the time that the cloud gorilla was AWS and had all this momentum. Now, Solomon Hykes, the founder of Docker, you see there in the upper right. He saw the need to simplify the packaging of applications for cloud developers. Here's how he described it. Back in 2014 in theCUBE with John Furrier >> Container is a unit of deployment, right? It's the format in which you package your application all the files, all the executables libraries all the dependencies in one thing that you can move to any server and deploy in a repeatable way. So it's similar to how you would run an iOS app on an iPhone, for example. >> A Docker at the time was a 30% company and it just changed its name from .cloud. And back to the diagram you have Google with a red question mark. So why would you need more than what Docker had created. Craig McLuckie, who was a product manager at Google back then explains the need for yet another abstraction. >> We created the strong separation between infrastructure operations and application operations. And so, Docker has created a portable framework to take it, basically a binary and run it anywhere which is an amazing capability, but that's not enough. You also need to be able to manage that with a framework that can run anywhere. And so, the union of Docker and Kubernetes provides this framework where you're completely abstracted from the underlying infrastructure. You could use VMware, you could use Red Hat open stack deployment. You could run on another major cloud provider like rec. >> Now Google had this huge cloud infrastructure but no commercial cloud business compete with AWS. At least not one that was taken seriously at the time. So it needed a way to change the game. And it had this thing called Google Borg, which is a container management system and scheduler and Google looked at what was happening with virtualization and said, you know, we obviously could do better Joe Beda, who was with Google at the time explains their mindset going back to the beginning. >> Craig and I started up Google compute engine VM as a service. And the odd thing to recognize is that, nobody who had been in Google for a long time thought that there was anything to this VM stuff, right? Cause Google had been on containers for so long. That was their mindset board was the way that stuff was actually deployed. So, you know, my boss at the time, who's now at Cloudera booted up a VM for the first time, and anybody in the outside world be like, Hey, that's really cool. And his response was like, well now what? Right. You're sitting at a prompt. Like that's not super interesting. How do I run my app? Right. Which is, that's what everybody's been struggling with, with cloud is not how do I get a VM up? How do I actually run my code? >> Okay. So Google never really did virtualization. They were looking at the market and said, okay what can we do to make Google relevant in cloud. Here's Eric Brewer from Google. Talking on theCUBE about Google's thought process at the time. >> One interest things about Google is it essentially makes no use of virtual machines internally. And that's because Google started in 1998 which is the same year that VMware started was kind of brought the modern virtual machine to bear. And so Google infrastructure tends to be built really on kind of classic Unix processes and communication. And so scaling that up, you get a system that works a lot with just processes and containers. So kind of when I saw containers come along with Docker, we said, well, that's a good model for us. And we can take what we know internally which was called Borg a big scheduler. And we can turn that into Kubernetes and we'll open source it. And suddenly we have kind of a cloud version of Google that works the way we would like it to work. >> Now, Eric Brewer gave us the bumper sticker version of the story there. What he reveals in the documentary that I referenced earlier is that initially Google was like, why would we open source our secret sauce to help competitors? So folks like Tim Hockin and Brian Grant who were on the original Kubernetes team, went to management and pressed hard to convince them to bless open sourcing Kubernetes. Here's Hockin's explanation. >> When Docker landed, we saw the community building and building and building. I mean, that was a snowball of its own, right? And as it caught on we realized we know what this is going to we know once you embrace the Docker mindset that you very quickly need something to manage all of your Docker nodes, once you get beyond two or three of them, and we know how to build that, right? We got a ton of experience here. Like we went to our leadership and said, you know, please this is going to happen with us or without us. And I think it, the world would be better if we helped. >> So the open source strategy became more compelling as they studied the problem because it gave Google a way to neutralize AWS's advantage because with containers you could develop on AWS for example, and then run the application anywhere like Google's cloud. So it not only gave developers a path off of AWS. If Google could develop a strong service on GCP they could monetize that play. Now, focus your attention back to the diagram which shows this smiling, Alex Polvi from Core OS which was acquired by Red Hat in 2018. And he saw the need to bring Linux into the cloud. I mean, after all Linux was powering the internet it was the OS for enterprise apps. And he saw the need to extend its path into the cloud. Now here's how he described it at an OpenStack event in 2015. >> Similar to what happened with Linux. Like yes, there is still need for Linux and Windows and other OSs out there. But by and large on production, web infrastructure it's all Linux now. And you were able to get onto one stack. And how were you able to do that? It was, it was by having a truly open consistent API and a commitment into not breaking APIs and, so on. That allowed Linux to really become ubiquitous in the data center. Yes, there are other OSs, but Linux buy in large for production infrastructure, what is being used. And I think you'll see a similar phenomenon happen for this next level up cause we're treating the whole data center as a computer instead of trading one in visual instance is just the computer. And that's the stuff that Kubernetes to me and someone is doing. And I think there will be one that shakes out over time and we believe that'll be Kubernetes. >> So Alex saw the need for a dominant container orchestration platform. And you heard him, they made the right bet. It would be Kubernetes. Now Red Hat, Red Hat is been around since 1993. So it has a lot of on-prem. So it needed a future path to the cloud. So they rang up Google and said, hey. What do you guys have going on in this space? So Google, was kind of non-committal, but it did expose that they were thinking about doing something that was you know, pre Kubernetes. It was before it was called Kubernetes. But hey, we have this thing and we're thinking about open sourcing it, but Google's internal debates, and you know, some of the arm twisting from the engine engineers, it was taking too long. So Red Hat said, well, screw it. We got to move forward with OpenShift. So we'll do what Apple and Airbnb and Heroku are doing and we'll build on an alternative. And so they were ready to go with Mesos which was very much more sophisticated than Kubernetes at the time and much more mature, but then Google the last minute said, hey, let's do this. So Clayton Coleman with Red Hat, he was an architect. And he leaned in right away. He was one of the first outside committers outside of Google. But you still led these competing forces in the market. And internally there were debates. Do we go with simplicity or do we go with system scale? And Hen Goldberg from Google explains why they focus first on simplicity in getting that right. >> We had to defend of why we are only supporting 100 nodes in the first release of Kubernetes. And they explained that they know how to build for scale. They've done that. They know how to do it, but realistically most of users don't need large clusters. So why create this complexity? >> So Goldberg explains that rather than competing right away with say Mesos or Docker swarm, which were far more baked they made the bet to keep it simple and go for adoption and ubiquity, which obviously turned out to be the right choice. But the last piece of the puzzle was governance. Now Google promised to open source Kubernetes but when it started to open up to contributors outside of Google, the code was still controlled by Google and developers had to sign Google paper that said Google could still do whatever it wanted. It could sub license, et cetera. So Google had to pass the Baton to an independent entity and that's how CNCF was started. Kubernetes was its first project. And let's listen to Chris Aniszczyk of the CNCF explain >> CNCF is all about providing a neutral home for cloud native technology. And, you know, it's been about almost two years since our first board meeting. And the idea was, you know there's a certain set of technology out there, you know that are essentially microservice based that like live in containers that are essentially orchestrated by some process, right? That's essentially what we mean when we say cloud native right. And CNCF was seated with Kubernetes as its first project. And you know, as, as we've seen over the last couple years Kubernetes has grown, you know, quite well they have a large community a diverse con you know, contributor base and have done, you know, kind of extremely well. They're one of actually the fastest, you know highest velocity, open source projects out there, maybe. >> Okay. So this is how we got to where we are today. This ETR data shows container orchestration offerings. It's the same X Y graph that we showed earlier. And you can see where Kubernetes lands not we're standing that Kubernetes not a company but respondents, you know, they doing Kubernetes. They maybe don't know, you know, whose platform and it's hard with the ETR taxon economy as a fuzzy and survey data because Kubernetes is increasingly becoming embedded into cloud platforms. And IT pros, they may not even know which one specifically. And so the reason we've linked these two platforms Kubernetes and Red Hat OpenShift is because OpenShift right now is a dominant revenue player in the space and is increasingly popular PaaS layer. Yeah. You could download Kubernetes and do what you want with it. But if you're really building enterprise apps you're going to need support. And that's where OpenShift comes in. And there's not much data on this but we did find this chart from AMDA which show was the container software market, whatever that really is. And Red Hat has got 50% of it. This is revenue. And, you know, we know the muscle of IBM is behind OpenShift. So there's really not hard to believe. Now we've got some other data points that show how Kubernetes is becoming less visible and more embedded under of the hood. If you will, as this chart shows this is data from CNCF's annual survey they had 1800 respondents here, and the data showed that 79% of respondents use certified Kubernetes hosted platforms. Amazon elastic container service for Kubernetes was the most prominent 39% followed by Azure Kubernetes service at 23% in Azure AKS engine at 17%. With Google's GKE, Google Kubernetes engine behind those three. Now. You have to ask, okay, Google. Google's management Initially they had concerns. You know, why are we open sourcing such a key technology? And the premise was, it would level the playing field. And for sure it has, but you have to ask has it driven the monetization Google was after? And I would've to say no, it probably didn't. But think about where Google would've been. If it hadn't open source Kubernetes how relevant would it be in the cloud discussion. Despite its distant third position behind AWS and Microsoft or even fourth, if you include Alibaba without Kubernetes Google probably would be much less prominent or possibly even irrelevant in cloud, enterprise cloud. Okay. Let's wrap up with some comments on the state of Kubernetes and maybe a thought or two about, you know, where we're headed. So look, no shocker Kubernetes for all its improbable beginning has gone mainstream in the past year or so. We're seeing much more maturity and support for state full workloads and big ecosystem support with respect to better security and continued simplification. But you know, it's still pretty complex. It's getting better, but it's not VMware level of maturity. For example, of course. Now adoption has always been strong for Kubernetes, for cloud native companies who start with containers on day one, but we're seeing many more. IT organizations adopting Kubernetes as it matures. It's interesting, you know, Docker set out to be the system of the cloud and Kubernetes has really kind of become that. Docker desktop is where Docker's action really is. That's where Docker is thriving. It sold off Docker swarm to Mirantis has made some tweaks. Docker has made some tweaks to its licensing model to be able to continue to evolve its its business. To hear more about that at DockerCon. And as we said, years ago we expected Kubernetes to become less visible Stu Miniman and I talked about this in one of our predictions post and really become more embedded into other platforms. And that's exactly what's happening here but it's still complicated. Remember, remember the... Go back to the early and mid cycle of VMware understanding things like application performance you needed folks in lab coats to really remediate problems and dig in and peel the onion and scale the system you know, and in some ways you're seeing that dynamic repeated with Kubernetes, security performance scale recovery, when something goes wrong all are made more difficult by the rapid pace at which the ecosystem is evolving Kubernetes. But it's definitely headed in the right direction. So what's next for Kubernetes we would expect further simplification and you're going to see more abstractions. We live in this world of almost perpetual abstractions. Now, as Kubernetes improves support from multi cluster it will be begin to treat those clusters as a unified group. So kind of abstracting multiple clusters and treating them as, as one to be managed together. And this is going to create a lot of ecosystem focus on scaling globally. Okay, once you do that, you're going to have to worry about latency and then you're going to have to keep pace with security as you expand the, the threat area. And then of course recovery what happens when something goes wrong, more complexity, the harder it is to recover and that's going to require new services to share resources across clusters. So look for that. You also should expect more automation. It's going to be driven by the host cloud providers as Kubernetes supports more state full applications and begins to extend its cluster management. Cloud providers will inject as much automation as possible into the system. Now and finally, as these capabilities mature we would expect to see better support for data intensive workloads like, AI and Machine learning and inference. Schedule with these workloads becomes harder because they're so resource intensive and performance management becomes more complex. So that's going to have to evolve. I mean, frankly, many of the things that Kubernetes team way back when, you know they back burn it early on, for example, you saw in Docker swarm or Mesos they're going to start to enter the scene now with Kubernetes as they start to sort of prioritize some of those more complex functions. Now, the last thing I'll ask you to think about is what's next beyond Kubernetes, you know this isn't it right with serverless and IOT in the edge and new data, heavy workloads there's something that's going to disrupt Kubernetes. So in that, by the way, in that CNCF survey nearly 40% of respondents were using serverless and that's going to keep growing. So how is that going to change the development model? You know, Andy Jassy once famously said that if they had to start over with Amazon retail, they'd start with serverless. So let's keep an eye on the horizon to see what's coming next. All right, that's it for now. I want to thank my colleagues, Stephanie Chan who helped research this week's topics and Alex Myerson on the production team, who also manages the breaking analysis podcast, Kristin Martin and Cheryl Knight help get the word out on socials, so thanks to all of you. Remember these episodes, they're all available as podcasts wherever you listen, just search breaking analysis podcast. Don't forget to check out ETR website @etr.ai. We'll also publish. We publish a full report every week on wikibon.com and Silicon angle.com. You can get in touch with me, email me directly david.villane@Siliconangle.com or DM me at D Vollante. You can comment on our LinkedIn post. This is Dave Vollante for theCUBE insights powered by ETR. Have a great week, everybody. Thanks for watching. Stay safe, be well. And we'll see you next time. (upbeat music)

>> Announcer: From around the globe, it's theCUBE, with digital coverage at Mirantis Launchpad 2020, brought to you by Mirantis. >> Welcome back. And I'm Stu Miniman, and this is theCUBE's coverage of Mirantis Launchpad 2020. Of course we're spending a lot of time talking about Kubernetes. We're going to be digging in talking about some of the important developer tooling that Mirantis is helping to proliferate in the market, solve some real important challenges in the space. So happy to welcome to the program Miska Kaipiainen. He is the senior director of engineering with Mirantis. Miska, thanks so much for joining us. Welcome to theCUBE. >> Thank you so much. >> All right, so Miska, I notice you've got on the Kontena sweatshirt. You were the founder of the company, did some tools. One of the tools that you and your team helped create was Lens. You and your team joined Mirantis, and recently Lens was pulled in. So maybe if you could just give us a little bit about your background. You do some coding yourself, the team that you have there, and let's tee up the conversation, 'cause it's that Lens piece that we're going to spend a bunch of time talking about. >> Yeah, so the background of what we did, basically Kontena, we started back in 2015, and we a the focus on creating technologies around the container orchestration technologies to basically to make developer tooling that are very easy to use for the developers. So during the years at Kontena, we did many different types of products, and maybe the most interesting product that we created was Lens. And now really when we joined Mirantis in January this year, so we have been able to work on Lens, and actually, since the Lens was made open source, fully open source in March this year, so it's been really kind of picking up, and now Mirantis acquired the whole technology, so we can really start investing even more in the development. >> All right, so let's talk specifically about Lens. As I teed up at the beginning, we're talking about managing multiple clusters. Gosh, and I think back to 2015. It was early on. Most people were still learning about Docker, Docker swarms, Kubernetes, Mesos. There were a lot of fights over how orchestration would be done. A little bit different discussion about what developers were doing, how they scaled out configurations, how they manage those. So help us understand kind of that core, what Lens does, and how the product has matured and expanded over those last five years. >> Yeah, so over the last five years, so originally Lens was developed for our internal product. So like Mesosphere and Docker, and they all have their own orchestration technologies even before Kubernetes. And we also started working on our own orchestration technology. And I'm a huge believer in when we are dealing with very complex technologies, so if you can visualize it and make it kind of more interesting to look at, so it will kind of help with the adoption, and it's kind of more acceptable to the market. And that's why we started doing Lens. And over the years, we turned Lens to work with Kubernetes environments, and nowadays really Lens is very much loved by the Kubernetes developers, who are those people who need to deal with the Kubernetes clusters on a daily basis. So they are not necessarily those ops people who are creating those clusters , but they are the people who actually use those clusters. >> Well, of course that that general adoption is something that, you know, super important. You have some stats you can share on, you talk about the love of developers. You said it's open source, it's available on GitHub, but how many people are using it? What are some of those usage stats? >> Yeah, so it was interesting. So when we released Lens open source under MIT license in March, so since then we have been getting, in half a year, we have been getting 8,000 stargazers on GitHub. That is kind of mind-blowing because we try to create projects and trying to create anything that would get a lot of traction in the past, but truly, it totally happened just now after years of trying. So it has been since the last six months, it's been just amazing the adopts and we have more than 50,000 users using Lens and the retention is great. People keep on coming back. So yeah, the numbers look very, very good for Lens, and we are just getting started. >> Yeah, well, it's something that this community definitely is huge growth, and anybody in this space remembers just the huge adoption of Docker, which of course the enterprise piece of Docker is now part of Mirantis. Inside those developers, help us understand a little bit more, what is it that has them really not only looking at the GitHubs, starring it, as you said, they're the stargazers. It's like a favorite, for those that aren't in the system. I've had a chance to look at some of the demos, and it seems rather straightforward. But if you could, just in your words, explain what it is that it solves for developers that otherwise they either had to do themselves or they had to cobble together a lot of different tools. We know developers out there. The wonderful thing is there's no shortage of tools to choose from. It's about the right tool that can do the right thing. >> Absolutely, absolutely. So Lens, we are calling it IDE for a reason. So we are talking about IDE for Kubernetes developers. And what does it mean actually is that we are taking all those necessary tools and technologies and packaging them, integrating them seamlessly together for the purpose of making it more easy for developers to deploy, operate, observe, inspect their workloads that are running on Kubernetes clusters. And I think the main benefits that Lens will provide for these developers is that if you're a newcomer in the Kubernetes ecosystem, so Lens gives you a very easy way to learn Kubernetes because it's so visual. And for more experienced users, it just radically improves the, let's say the speed of business and the way how you can perform things with your clusters. >> So one of the pieces that that Lens does is that multi-cluster management. So first of all, I believe, as you said, it's open source and can work with, is it any certified Kubernetes out there, whether it be from the public cloud, companies like VMware and Red Hat that have Kubernetes, of course, Mirantis has Kubernetes, too. And secondly, I think you teased out a little bit, but help help us understand a little bit. Multi-cluster management is something that the big players, you hear Azure and Google Cloud talking about how they look at managing not only other environments, but oh yeah, we can have other clusters and we can help you manage it. I think that's more on the ops side of things, as opposed to, as you said, this is really a developer tool set. >> Yeah, so of course, all the organizations, they want to most likely have some sort of centralized system where they can manage multiple clusters, and some companies provide systems for on-premises, and some public cloud vendors, they provide systems for provisioning those clusters on their own own systems. And then we have also the kind of multicloud management systems. Most of these technologies, they are really designed for the operations side, so how the IT administrations can manage these multiple clusters. So now if you look at the situation from the developer's perspective, they are now given access to certain number of clusters from different environments. And by the way, some of these clusters are also running on their local development environments on their laptops. So what Lens is doing is basically provides a unified user experience across all these clusters no matter what is the flavor of the Kubernetes. It can be the Minikube. It can be from AKS. It can be Mirantis Enterprise, Docker Enterprise offering, or whatever. So it kind of brings them all together and makes it very easy to navigate and go around and do your work. >> Yeah, well, that's, the promise of Kubernetes isn't that it just levels the playing field amongst everything. As I've talked to the founders of Kubernetes, people like Joe Beda said it's not a silver bullet. It's a thin layer. But that skillset is what's so important because there is a lot of difference between every platform they deal with. So as a developer, it's nice to have some tools that I can work across those environments. From a developer standpoint, I think it's on Windows, Linux, Mac, works across those environment. What do you hear from your customers? How are they using it? Is this something that they're like, oh hey, I can go make an adjustment on my mobile when I'm not necessarily in the office? Are we not quite there yet? >> Actually, it's kind of funny, because sometimes we hear these type of requests that we would like to have a mobile app version of Lens. I don't know how that would actually work in practice. So we haven't been doing anything on that front yet. I think still the most common use case is that developers, they are given access to clusters from somewhere and they are just desperately trying to find a kind of convenient way how to navigate around these different clusters and how to manage their workloads. And I think Lens is hitting the sweet spot in there with the ease of use. >> All right, so let me understand. It's been open sourced, yet Mirantis owns it. Is there a service or support? Does this tie into other products in the Mirantis portfolio? How do people get it? What do they need to, if anything, pay for it? And help us understand how this fits into the broader Mirantis story. >> Yes, so it's still kind of early days, so we just kind of announced that Lens is now part of Mirantis, let's say portfolio. So I must say that still the kind of main focus for us is around improving Lens and making it better for developers. So that's much more important than trying to think about the ways how potentially we could monetize this. So, but there are plans going ahead, going around for different ways how we can better support bigger enterprises who want to start using Lens in a big scale. >> Well, yeah, that's so important. Of course, developers, we need to lower the friction, help them adopt things fast. Miska, just get your general viewpoint, though. One of the big value propositions that Mirantis has is of course allowing enterprises to take advantage of these new types of solutions, especially today around Kubernetes. So help us understand from your standpoint the philosophy of what your team's helping to build and the customer engagements that you're having. >> Yes, so Mirantis, of course, has a broad portfolio of products, and many of those products, of course, are related to Kubernetes. And so we have many products which I'm also one of the leading development efforts around those. So some of the products are related to how to manage image repositories and registries. Some of them are related to how to handle the helm charts, which has basically become the defacto packaging format for Kubernetes applications. And we are kind of trying to bring all these different products and technologies together in a way that make it even more easy for developers then to access through Lens. So it's still a little bit work in progress, of course, since the Lens ecosystem is quite new, but we are on track there trying to make a beautiful one kind of experience for our customers. >> All right, well, final question I have for you. As you said, it's new there, but it gives a little taste as to feedback you're getting from the community. Anything we should be looking at on kind of the near to mid-term road map when it comes to Lens. >> Oh yeah, so we are just barely scratching the surface of the potential on what we can do with Lens. So one of the big features that we will be releasing still during this year in a couple of months time is going to be the extension API, which will allow all these cloud-native technology ecosystem vendors to bring their own technologies easily available and accessible through Lens. So it is possible for third parties to extend the user interface with their own kind of unique features and visualizations. And we are already actively working with certain partners to integrate their technologies through this extension API. So that's going to be huge. It's going to be game-changer. >> Well, the great thing about an open source project is people can go out, they can grab it now, they can give feedback, participate in the community. Miska, thank you so much for joining us and great to chat. >> Thank you for having me. Thank you. >> All right, stay with us for more coverage of Mirantis Launchpad 2020. I'm Stu Miniman and thank you for watching theCUBE. (bright music)

(upbeat music) >> Announcer: Live from San Diego, California, it's theCUBE covering Kubecon and CloudNative Con brought to you by Red Hat, the Cloud Native Computing Foundation, and its ecosystem partners. >> Welcome back to the Kubecon CloudNative Con here in San Diego. I'm Stu Miniman and my co-host is Justin Warren. And one of the things we always love to do is really dig in to some of the customer use cases. And joining us to do that, Andrey Rybka, who's the head of Compute Architecture and the CTO Office at Bloomberg. Andrey, thanks so much for joining us. >> Thank you. >> All right, so just to set the stage, last year we had your colleague Steven Bauer, came, talked about your company's been using Kubernetes for a number of years. You're a member of the CNCF as one of those end users there and you're even an award winner. So, congratulations on all the process. You've been doing if for years, so all the problems, I'm sure are already solved, so now we just have a big party, right? >> Yes, well I'm mean certainly we are at the stage where things are quite mature and there's a lot of workloads that are running Kubernetes. We run Kubernetes on-premises. Steven has an excellent data sense platform that does machine learning with GPUs and bare metal. We also have a really excellent team that runs basically Platform as a Service, generic Platform as a Service, not GPUs but effectively runs any kind of stateless app or service and that's been extremely successful and, you know there's a lot interest in that. And we also run Kubernetes in Public Cloud. So, a lot of workloads for like Bloomberg.com, actually are backed now by Kubernetes. >> Yeah, so we want to spend a bunch of time talking about the applications, the data, the services, that you've built some PaaS's there. Yes, so step us back for a second if you would, and give us the, What led to Kubernetes? And as you said, you've got your on-premises environment, you've got Public Cloud, where was that when you started and what's the role of Kubernetes and that today? >> Sure, we started back in 2015, evaluating all kinds of sort of container orchestration platforms. It's very clear that developers love containers for its portability and just the ability to have the same environments that runs kind of on-premises or on your laptop and runs on the actual deployment environment, the same thing, right? So, we looked at Mesos, Marathon, Cloud Foundry, even OpenShift before it was Kubernetes. And we, in no specific order continuously evaluate all different options and once we make a decision, we recommend to the engineering team and work in partnership with engineers. So all of those awards and everything, actually I want to say, that this is really a kudos to our engineering team. We just a small part of the puzzle. Now as far as like how we made the Kubernetes selection, it was a bit risky. We started with a pre-alpha version and you know I read the Borg paper, how Google actually did Borg. And when I sort of realized, well they're trying to do the same thing with Kubernetes. It was very clear, this is kind of, you know we're going to build on mature experience, right. So, some what it was risky but also a safe bet because you know there was some good computer science and engineering behind the product. So we started alpha version, they're consumer web groups actually were one of the first deployments of there kind of Kubernetes and they present them at the first Kubecon. It was an excellent talk on how we did Kubernetes and you know we came a long way since then. We've got sort of now, probably about 80 to 100 clusters running and you know, they run full high availability, DR -1. I would say it is one of the most reliable environments that we have, you know. We have frequently, you know infrastructure outages, hypervisors, you know, obviously hardware fails, which is normal, and we rarely see any issues and actually you know no like any major issues whatsoever. So, the things we expected out of Kubernetes, the things like reliability, elastic infrastructure, auto-scaling, the multi-tenancy it all worked out. Higher density of sort of packing the nodes, you know that's another great sort of value add that we expected but now we finally realizing that. >> So, one question I've had from a lot of customers, particularly traditional enterprises who are used to doing things and have a lot of virtual machine infrastructure. They're looking at Kubernetes but they're finding it somewhat opaque, a little bit scary. Talk us through, How did you convince the business that this was the choice that we should make and that we need to change the way that we're developing applications and deploying applications and we want to do this with Kubernetes? How did you convince them that this was going to be okay in the end? >> Yes, yes, that's a really good question. A lot of people were scared and you know they were, is this going to break things or you know is this just a shiny new thing. And there was a lot of education that had to occur. We've shown a lot of POCs now. The way we exposed Kubernetes was not just like raw Kubernetes. We actually wanted to keep it safe, so we sort of stayed away from some, like more alpha type of workloads and moved towards kind of like the more stable things. And so, we exposed it Platform as a Service. So, the developers did not actually get to necessarily like kubectl you know, apply a config and just deploy the app. We actually had a really good sort of offering where we had kind of, almost like Git-flow kind of environment where you have, you know your source control, then you have CICD pipeline and then once it goes through all those check and balances, you deploy your containers. So from that perspective, we actually hid quite a bit of things that made things a bit dangerous or potentially a little bit more complicated. And that's proven to be the right strategy because right now as far as the reliability I would say this is probably one of the most reliable environments that we have. And this is by design, you know. We basically tell the developers, by default you're supposed to run at least two replicas at least two Data Centers by default or two, you know, regions or two availability zones, and you can't change that. There's some people who are asking me like can I just deploy just in one Data Center, I'm like, I'm sorry, no. Like by default its like that. And auto-scaling on so if one Data Center goes and you need DR -1, so if you started with two minimum replicas then it auto-scales to four or whatever that will be set. So, you know, I think we've basically put a prototype of a proof of concept relatively fast. And We've got with the initial Platform as a Service, you know from zero to actual delivery in about three months. A lot of building blocks were there and we just put kind of the pieces of the puzzle together. >> All right, that does echo a lot of the discussion that was at had in the keynote today, even was about looking at making Kubernetes easier to consume, essentially by having all of these sensible defaults like you mentioned. You will have two replicas. It will run in these two different zones. And kind of removing some of that responsibility for those decisions from the developers. >> Andrey: Yes. >> How does that line up with the idea of DevOps which seems to be partly about making the developers a bit more responsible for their service and how it runs in production. It sounds like you've actually taken a lot of that effort away from them by, we've done all this work for you so you don't have to think about that anymore. >> I mean a little bit of background, we have about 5,500 engineers. So, expecting everybody to learn DevOps and Kubernetes is not realistic, right? And most developers really want to write applications and services that add business value, right? Nobody wants to really manage networking at the lower level, you know there's a lot of still complexity in this environment, right? So, you know, as far as DevOps, we've built shared kind of teams that have basically like, think of like centralized SRE teams that build the core platform components. We have a world class kind of software infrastructure group which builds those type of components. On top of the sort of, the technology infrastructure team that caters to the hardware and the virtualization infrastructure built on OpenStack. So you know, there is very much kind of a lot of common services/shared services teams that build that as a platform to developers and that is how we can scale. Because, you know, it's very hard to do that if every team is just sort of duplicating each one of those things. >> So Andrey, let's talk a little bit about your application portfolio. >> Andrey: Sure. >> Bloomberg must have thousands of applications out there. >> Andrey: Yes, yes. >> From what you were describing, is this only for kind of net new applications. If I want to use it I have to build something new, replacing something else or, or can you walk us through kind of what percentage is on this platform today and how is that migration or transition? >> And some is not net new, we actually did port quite a bit of the sort of the classic Bloomberg services that developers expect to the platform. And it's seamless to the developers. So, we've been doing quite a bit of sort of Linux migration meaning from like things like Solaris, AIX, and this platform was built purposefully to help developers to migrate their services. Now, they're not sort of lift and shift type of migrations. You can't just expect the, you know classic C++ shared memory app suddenly like jump and start being in containers, right? So there is some architectural changes, differences that had to be done. The type of applications that we see, you know, they're just sort of microservices oriented. Bloomberg has been around since 1981 and they've been doing service-oriented architecture since like early 90s. So, you know, things were already kind of in services kind of framework and mentality. And before, you know we had service matches, Bloomberg had its own kind of paradigm of service matches. So, all we do is kind of retro-fit the same concepts with new frameworks. And what we did is we brought in sort of like a new mentality of open source first. So, most new systems that we built, we look for kind of what about if you know, we look for open source components that can fit in this particular problem set. So there applications that we have right now, we have quite a bit of data services, data transformation pipelines, machine learning, you know, there's quite a bit of the machine learning as far as like the actual learning part of training, and then there is the inference part that runs quite a bit. We have quite a few of accounting services, like, I mentioned Bloomberg.com, and many sort of things that you would normally think of like accounting delivery services that run on Kubernetes. And I mean, at this point, we certainly try to be a little bit conscious about stateful services, so we don't run as much of databases and things like that. Eventually, we will get there once we prove the reliability and resiliency around the stateful set in Kubernetes. >> Yeah, do you have an estimate internal or goals as to what percentage your applications are on this platform now and a roadmap going forward? >> I mean, it's hard to say but going forward, I see majority of all services migrating to Kubernetes because for us, Kubernetes is become an essentially standardized compute fabric. You know, one thing that we've been missing, you know, a lot of open source projects deliver, you know virtualized infrastructure. But, you know, that's not quite enough, right. You need other sort of concepts to be there and Kubernetes did deliver that for us. And more importantly, it also delivered us kind of a, almost like a multi-cloud strategy, you know, kind of accidentally because, you know none of the cloud providers have any standard APIs of any source, right? Like, so even if use Terraform, that's not necessarily multi-cloud, it's just like you got to write HCO for each cloud provider. In Kubernetes, more or less, that becomes kind of a really solved problem. >> So which, what flavor of Kubernetes are you using? Do you leverage any of the services from the Public Cloud on Kubernetes? >> Yeah, I mean, excellent question. So, you know we want to leverage managed offerings as much as possible because things like patch and the security of you know, CVE's, and things like that, I want somebody to take care of that for me and harden things, and out of the box. So, the key to our multi-cloud strategy is use managed offering but based on open source software. So if you want to deploy services, deploy them on Kubernetes as much as possible. If you want to use databases, use manage database but based on the open source software, like Postgres, or MySQL. And that makes it affordable, right, to an extent, I mean, there's going to be some slight differences, but I do believe that managed is better than if I'm going to go and bootstrap VM's and manage my own control plane and the workers and things like that. >> Yeah, and it is a lot of additional work that I think organizations genuinely did try to roll their own and do everything themselves. There's a lot more understanding since the advent of cloud essentially that actually making someone else do this for what is essentially the undifferentiated heavy lifting. If you can get someone else to do that for you, >> Andrey: Absolutely >> it's a much better experience. Which is actually what you've built with the Kubernetes services for your developers. You are becoming that managed service for your app developers. I think a few enterprise organizations have tried to do that a little bit with centralized IT. They haven't quite got that service mentality there where I'm the product owner and I need to create something which my developers find is valuable to use so that they want to use it. >> This is exactly spot on. When I joined Bloomberg six years ago, one of the things we wanted to do is effectively offer a Public Cloud like services on-premises and now we're there. We actually have a lot of managed offerings whether you want Kafka as a service, queuing as a service, or you know, cache as a service, or even Kubernetes but not necessarily we want to expose Kubernetes as a service, we want to expose Platform as a Service. So, you hit the nail on the head because effectively developers want kind of the same things that they see in the Public Cloud. I want you know, function as a service, I want lambda something like this. Well, that's a type of Platform as a Service. So, you're spot on. >> Yeah, Andrey, last question I have for you. You know, you talked about the maturity of the managed offerings there, something we've seen a lot this year is the companies that, How am I going to manage across, you know, various environments? There we saw, you know, Microsoft with Azure, or VMware with Honzu, what do you think of that? Is that something that interests you or anything else in the ecosystem that you still think needs to mature to help your business? >> Sure, sure, I mean, I think that the use cases they're trying to address are definitely near and dear to my heart. Because we are trying to be multi-cloud. And in order to be truly mature multi-cloud sort of company, we need to have sort of mature kind of multi-cloud control plane. That has kind of the deployment address, ACD pipeline address than it need to address security, not just day one but day two, a load and monitoring and all of you know, if I were just to have three different portals to look at, it is very complicated, you're going to miss things. I want one pane of glass, right. So, what this company is addressing is extremely important and I see a lot of value in it. Now from my point of view, in general, what we prefer if it was an open source project that we could contribute and we could collaborate on, we still want to pay money for the support and what not, we don't want to just be free riders, right? But if it's an open source product and we can be part of it, it's not just read-only open source, that is definitely something that I would be very much interested in participating. And majority of the developers that we have are very happy to participate in open source. I think you seen some of our contributors here. We have some people contributing to Kubeflow. There's many other projects, we have quite a bit of cube projects like the case engineering with powerfulseal. If somebody wants to check it out, we've got some really interesting things. >> Andrey, really appreciate you sharing what you and your engineering teams are doing. >> Thank you. >> Thank you for all the contributions back to the community. >> Yep. >> For Justin Warren, I'm Stu Miniman back with more of our three day wall to wall coverage here at KubeCon CloudNative Con. Thank you for watching theCube. (dramatic music)

>> Announcer: Live from San Diego, California, it's theCUBE. Covering KubeCon and CloudNativeCon. Brought to you by Red Hat, the Cloud Native Computing Foundation and its ecosystem partners. >> Welcome back, I'm Stu Miniman and my Co-host is John Troyer. And you're watching theCUBE here in day two of our coverage of KubeCon and CloudNativeCon. And joining me is Tobi Knaup who is the co-founder and CTO of D2iQ. See what I did there, Tobi? >> That's right, I love it. >> Alright. So Tobi, first of all, KubeCon, of course D2iQ, last year when we were here it was Mesosphere, so give us a little bit, you've been to lots of customer meetings, 12,000 people in attendance, tell us a little bit about the energy and how your team's finding the show so far. >> Yeah, obviously biggest KubeCon so far and it's just amazing how far this community has come, how it's grown. How many projects are part of it now, how many vendors here, too. You know two expo halls with different booths and you know, I think it just shows how important this community, this ecosystem is. When customers come to us and say they want to work with Kubernetes the community's why they're really doing it. >> Yeah, it is a great community, great vibe for people that aren't already in it. It's easy to get started, but one of the big themes we're hearing here is simplicity, how to make it easier to get going and once they get going, what happens after day one? That's some of the rebranded pieces. So for our audience, explain a little bit, why the rebrand focus of the company, Day 2 operations, absolutely something that I hear a lot of discussion on and why is your team specifically well positioned for that environment. >> No absolutely, so the rebrand we did because obviously our old company named Mesosphere has Mesos in it. That's the open source product we started with. But we've been doing a lot more than that actually for many years, right? We help customers run Apache Kafka and Spark and Cassandra. We've been doing a lot with Kubernetes also for some time now and even more so now. So having one particular technology in the company name was holding us back, right. People just put us in that box but we're doing so much more. So that was the reason for the rebrand and so, we wanted a name that doesn't have a particular technology in it and so we're looking for what is really expressed, what we do, what we help our customers with? And we've always been focused on Day 2 operations, so everything that happens after the initial install. How do you monitor things properly, upgrade them and so on? So that's why we loved that Day 2 concept. And then the IQ really stands for a couple of things. First of all we try to put a lot of automation into our products, so make those products smart to help our customers. But more importantly too, when we look at the ecosystem as a whole, where are most customers at, where are most companies at. Well, they're still early in their cloud-native journey and they need to get up to speed, they need to get smart about cloud-native and about Day 2 operations and so that's the IQ piece. We want to help our customers become smart about this space, get educated and then learn to do cloud-native. >> So Tobi, one of the things that fascinates me about the Kubernetes ecosystem is that people bring stuff to the table. Kubernetes is here, that's evolving. Other companies, entities, projects are coming to the table with other open source concepts and solving problems that they have in the field. At D2iQ, when you were Mesosphere, you have years of experience dealing with production issues, scaling management, all these sort of really, really fascinating cloud-native problems, so you bring a lot of experience to the table. So one of the projects that you are now working on and working with your customers and partners and the bigger ecosystem on is a way of approaching operators. The concept of bringing this kind of lifecycle automation to applications and helping with all these Day 2 problems. Can you talk a little about so KUDO is the name of the framework, I guess. Can you talk a little bit about that and how you're bringing that here to sit at the table and what some people's experiences with that are and what they are using it for? >> Absolutely, yeah, so these data services, these stapler workloads like Kafka, Cassandra and Spark, that's been in our DNA for a very long time. In fact, a little known fact, Apache Spark was originally a demo application for Apache Mesos. That's how it started originally. Obviously, it took off. So, we've been doing that since even before we were a company. And we've been helping our customers on top of Mesos with running these complex data stacks and there's some equivalent of operators on top of Mesos called frameworks. So we've been building these frameworks and we realized it's a little too hard to build these things. We typically had to write thousands of lines of code, 10, 20,000 sometimes and it took too long. So what we actually did on Mesos many years ago is we extracted the common patterns from those frameworks and built it into a library and made it so you can actually build a framework with just configuration, with just YAML, so it's a language that allows you to essentially sequence your operations into phases and steps. kind of like you would write a run book that a human operator takes and then goes through, right? So when we looked at the Kubernetes Operator space, we saw some of those same challenges that we had faced years ago. Building a Kubernetes Operator requires to write a lot of code. Not every company has Go programmers, people that are skilled enough in Kubernetes that they can write an operator. And more importantly too, once you write those 10,000 lines of code or more, you also have to maintain it. You have to keep up with API changes and so, a lot of folks we talked to at KubeCon last year and to customers, said it's just too hard to build operators. The other side of that too, is folks said it's a little too hard to use those operators too because very common use cases, you build a data pipeline. That means you'll be using multiple different operators, say Kafka, Cassandra and Spark. So if those all have different APIs, that's pretty hard to manage. So we wanted to simplify that. We wanted to create an alternative way for building operators that doesn't require you to learn Go, doesn't require you to write code, it works with just this orchestration language that KUDO offers and then for the KUDO users, the API is the same across these different operators. It has a plugin for Kube Cuddle, so you can interface with all the different operators through that. So yeah, simplicity and a great developer experience are the keys here. >> Tobi, I was wondering maybe you bring us inside the personas you target with this type of solution. As we've seen the maturation of this space, first couple of years I came, it felt very infrastructure heavy. The last year or two, there's more of the AppDev discussion there. They don't always speak the same languages. Looks like you've got some tooling here to help simplify that environment and make it easier because of course your application developers don't want to worry about that stuff. That's the promise of things like serverless, or just we're going to take care of that and stats and whatnot, so where specifically do you target and what are you hearing from customers as to how they're sorting through these organizational changes? >> Yeah, so I think ultimately, everybody kind of wants a platform as a service in some way, right? If you're building an app for your business, you don't want to think about, how do I provision this database, how to do that? And obviously, I can go to a public cloud and I can use all those public cloud services but what a lot of folks are doing now is they're running on various different types of infrastructure. They're running on multiple public clouds. They're running on the Edge. We work with a lot of customers that have a need to deploy these data services, these operators in Edge locations, on the manufacturing floor in a factory, for instance. Or on a cruise ship, that's one company we're working with. So, how do you bring this API-driven deployment of these services to all these different types of locations? And so that's what we try to achieve with KUDO for the data services and then with our other products too, like Kommander, which is a multi-cluster control plane. It's about when organizations have all these different clusters. And very typically they get into the dozens or even hundreds of clusters fast. How do you then manage that? How do you apply configuration consistently across these clusters? Manage your secrets and RBAC rules and things like that? So those are all the Day 2 things that we try to help customers with. There's a little bit of a tension there sometimes, right? Because the great thing about Kubernetes is it's great for developers. It has a nice API, people love the API. People are very quick to adopt it, right? They try it out on their laptop, they setup their first cluster. That typically goes very fast and they very quickly have their first app running. So it happens organically, right? But every large organization also has a need to put the right governance in place, right? How I keep those clusters secure? How do I meet my regulatory requirements? How do I make sure I can upgrade those clusters fast, if I need to fix a security issue and so on? So there's that tension between the governance, the central IT and what the developers want to do. We try to strike a balance there with our products to give developers the agility that cloud-native promises but at the same time, give the IT folks the right controls so they can meet their requirements. >> Tobi, here at the show this year, obviously bigger and a lot more folks at different parts of their cloud-native journey. Again, with the experience you all have, as you talk to folks this year, obviously people are clearly in production. You talk about some of the governance issues, is there anything you can say about either what you think is going to make for a successful partnership with you and a successful customer? What qualities do you need to have by the time you're growing up in production and then also as they're making choices here, what should the end users be looking at? >> Right, so one of the things we realized over the years is actually cloud-native is a journey. Every organization is somewhere else on that journey. And you said partnership, I think that's the key word here. We want to partner with our customers because we realize that this stuff is complicated, right? And it's actually for us as a company, our journey has been kind of interesting because we started at this large scale spot, right? Before we were even a company, we were running these clusters with tens of thousands of notes. These large online services at Twitter and other companies, that's where we started and that's where our first product kind of landed. It's at that large scale is what we're known for but most organizations out there are much earlier in their journey to cloud-native. As so, what we realized is that we really need to partner with folks to even at the very first steps, where they're just getting educated about this space, right? What are containers? How are they different from VMs? What is this cluster management thing, right? How does this all fit together? So we try to hold our customers' hands, catch them where they are. Besides all of the software that we're building, we also offer trainings for example. And so we just try to have the conversation with the customer. Figure out what their needs are, whether that's training, whether that's services or different products. And the different products that come together in our Kubernetes product line, they're really designed to meet the customer at these different stages. There's Konway, that's our Kubernetes distribution, get your first project up and running. Then once you get a little bit more sophisticated, you probably want to do CI/CD. So we have an upcoming product for that, it's called Dispatch. Pretty excited about it. The data services with KUDO. Folks typically add that next and then very quickly you have these dozens of hundreds of clusters. Now, you need Kommander, right? So we try to fit that all together. Meet the customer where they are and I think education is a big piece of that. >> All right, Tobi, we want to give you the final word. You talked about some of the things coming out here, so just give us your viewpoint of the ecosystem broader as to what next things need to be done to help even further the journey that we're all on? >> Yeah, I think in terms of next things, there's a lot of interest around operators. Well, operators as the implementation but really what's happening is, people are running more and more different workloads on top of Kubernetes, right? And I think that's where a lot of the work is going to happen over the next year. There's some discussions in the CNCF now even. What is an operator? How do we define that? Is it something fairly broad? Is it something fairly specific? But Kubernetes is definitely the factor standard for doing cloud-native and people are putting it in a lot of different environments. They're putting it in Edge locations. So I think we need to figure out how do you have a sane sort of development workflow for these types of deployments? How do you define an application that might actually run on multiple different clusters? So I think there's going to be a lot of talk. Operators obviously, but also on the developers side, in a layer above Kubernetes, right? How can I just define my application in a way where I say maybe just run this thing at a highly available way on two different cloud providers, instead of saying specifically it needs to go here, it needs to go there? Or deploy this thing in a follow the sun model or whatever that is. So I think that's where a lot of the conversations are going to happen, is that level above. >> All right well Tobi, appreciate the updates. Congratulations on the progress and definitely look forward to catching more from you and D2iQ team in the near future. >> Thank you very much for having me. >> All right, for John Troyer, I'm Stu Miniman, lots more to come. Thanks for watching theCUBE. (light music)

>> Announcer: Live from San Diego, California, it's theCUBE! Covering KubeCon and CloudNativeCon. Brought to you by Red Hat, the Cloud Native Computing Foundation, and its ecosystem partners. >> Welcome back. I'm Stu Miniman, my cohost, John Troyer, and this is theCUBE's fourth year of coverage of KubeCon, CloudNativeCon 2019. We're in here San Diego and happy to welcome to the program a first-time guest, Amr Abdelhalem, who is the head of Cloud Platforms at Fidelity Investments. Of course, Fidelity, we love talking to an end user. Big financial company. Your boss was up on the main stage in front of 8000 people, just in that room, there's over 12,000 here in person. Fidelity itself, you know, founded in 1946, first computers in 1965. In the last year, you've now got over 500 applications running in the public cloud, and Fidelity also joined the CNCS. So let's start there, Amr, if we would. Just kind of how does Fidelity look at kind of Kubernetes and CNCS? How does that fit into your company's mission? >> Absolutely, I mean thank you so much for inviting me here. Innovation in Fidelity is, a big part of the process. We're very focused at this time in cloud computing and machine learning, NEI technology. We had the first financial robot in 2015, I believe. We have the first augmented reality financial advisor, was actually released this year as a prototype. So a part of that innovation, we're seeing, CNCF and cloud computing and Cloud Native, is keys for strategy for our innovation part. >> All right, maybe if you could, give us a little bit of the breadth and depth of your team, what they cover, cloud platforms. What does that mean inside of Fidelity? >> Sure, so Fidelity had over, like, over 10,000 of IT. Hundreds and hundreds of develop teams, thousands of applications. It's globally distributed. It had all kind of workloads, that you can imagine. And it's in a highly regulated environment as well. And that's where we are seeing that we are all looking for this autonomy between teams, and agility, and improved time to market and customer experience. And the key for that is Cloud Native. We're seeing Kubernetes and CNCF and Cloud Native technology is like a key player for us when we go, multicloud to hypercloud model. >> Can you talk a little bit about more into that portfolio of technologies? You know, there's a lot of talk about public cloud verses on-prem, and, as if one thing is going to, one knife is going to be the only thing you need in your kitchen. >> Amr: Right. >> So you have a portfolio of platforms, you have a portfolio of destinations and a portfolio of applications. Can you talk a little bit, both about what you're using, and maybe how you're organized to access and address all those needs? >> Absolutely. So, I think, 2019, I would say, is the year of multicloud-hypercloud modeling, right? Actually, I would say that 2020 is going to more about distributed cloud, where you can distribute your workload across multicloud providers. We're not there yet. I don't think we're, anyone, is there yet. But at least we should start somewhere. We already has this multicloud providing. Distributing the workload itself between, I mean, it's a journey to move thousands of applications and thousands workloads and data as well, between on-premises data centers to a public cloud. You need to move through this journey of hypercloud models. And be able to move apps slowly and aggressively to other apps. >> All right. Amr, I want to dig into what you talked about there, multiclouds. >> Sure. >> So when you talk about multiple clouds, yes, everybody has that. I've got, walk us through a little bit, you know, where you have workloads and how many public clouds you use in life, but I want to set you up with a premise. You know, we really said, for multicloud to really be a reality-- >> Amr: Right. >> The value that you extract should be greater than the sum of its parts. And most of us lived through the multi vendor years, and that wasn't necessarily happiness and joy, when I had to span between those environments. So how do we make sure that multicloud doesn't become the least common denominator or a detriment to what I need to do with my data, my applications, the value that the company has? >> And that's why we are here. We are actually incorporated at Kubecon for that reason. That where we see this abstract layer that guarantee you the portability for moving your application from one cloud provider to another. That capability of the ability to deploy the same workload into multiclouds, the ability to have the workload itself, managed in different characteristic, next to assess services that you will find in AWS via Azure, via Google Cloud, the others. That's were we need that flexibility, and Kubernetes and Cloud Native itself, the ability to have the same deployable structure for your application, the ability to have the same ecosystem around that construction, around that artifact. The ability to move all of that, as-is, from one cloud provider to another cloud provider is big, big key. And that you can only find with script native. >> All right, Amr, can you share which cloud or clouds you're working on today, and what is your roadmap, do you have a timeline to when that vision becomes reality? >> At this moment, we're with a major cloud provider keys that, you guys can name them, all the colors. >> Stu: You're using all of them, okay. >> All the colors. >> And how are you using Kubernetes today? Where are you in that journey? >> So Kubernetes is mainly, I mean, I would say the majority is still running on premise. We are very intensively moving to public cloud in the Kubernates side. At this moment, actually, we're building an offer, inside my team, which is a cloud platform team. That offer will guarantee that portability between all the cloud provider. So for development team to port our platform, it will be kind of seamless for them, where it's going to land, is it going to be landing in AWS or Azures or on premise. >> Okay, joining the CNCF as a member, bring us inside. I understand the journey. Are there any specific goals you have? How do you measure the investment, and what you're hoping to, both as a company as well as part of the community, get out of it? >> So we have a big hold right now and opensource our project our little project about multiclouding, and our focus is mainly about the high regulation part. We're very focused in compliance and security, and in that way we can, I think, we can contribute back to the open source community around that. >> So Amr, you talked about, you know, we talked about the platforms here, and Kubernetes, but that goes hand-in-hand with the culture, and the up-skilling, and the organization and the processes. What intrigued me is you said, well, we put some things on Kubernetes on-prem, and then, and you know some things in the cloud, but then we're going to move some of those apps over time, we'll move to other appropriate homes. So that implies that you've changed process and you've changed, or maybe to be able to build cloud native apps, and that was actually separate, in some cases, from being in the public cloud. Is that the case, can you talk a little bit about how you've approached from the perspective of people who are listening or watching who are IT admins, and wondering how a company, a major organization, like your org, gets there? >> Right, and this is a main challenge. The challenge is not in the technology side itself, or the tools, that seems a majority there in the ecosystem at this moment. The challenge is mainly building the sculpture inside teams. So we're building many like, star-point or COEs across all of our business unit and all of our teams. And again, to build a sculpture across 10,000 developers plus, that's a major. >> And it's funny, because sometimes people go, well, COE is a dirty word, right, don't do a COE, but you said multiple COEs distributed across. >> So it's like nuclear reaction, our COEs, the first one, that will communicate with few COEs, each one of them would be with other COEs, and that's how that chain will go and expand quite quickly. >> All right. >> And this is happening at this moment. >> So, Amr, I have a few friends that this is the first time that they've come, and they go into the keynote, or they look at the schedule, and they're a bit overwhelmed. >> Amr: Right >> They say, it's not just Kubernetes, there's dozens and dozens of projects. The ecosystem is sprawling. If you could, give us a little walkthrough as to, the projects you're using, any key partners that you're allowed to talk about that are useful in helping you to achieve your mission. >> So, we're very focused at this moment, actually, in the Kubernetes project itself. We start exploring some of the open source project and in the CICD part, additional to that, we are starting using few frameworks like Flux, this is one of the frameworks like GitOps in general, building this culture of GitOps deployment, and moving toward, like, more ops of deployment, that's one of areas that we are very invested in. We're exploring service mesh at this time, and I hope like, we're going to get, like, maybe next year we can talk about service mesh more. >> Yeah, is there something that's holding you back on service mesh, 'cause there's a few options out there at various maturity levels, and who's driving them. What will some of your criteria be? >> I would say it's mainly, I'm waiting little bit more, I feel like 214 for me, when we had that discussion, instead of sitting here, 214, you will be discussing Mesos via Kubernetes via Swarm. So I think we are still moving at this time, service mesh as well. >> Any partners that you can speak to from a technology standpoint that are helping you, that you're allowed to talk about? >> Amr: Well, I mean, first of all CNCF. >> Yeah. >> I greatly appreciate all their help in that. Most of the public cloud providers are helping us in this areas as well, yeah. >> I'll be interested in catching you after the show and seeing how you thought, I mean this is, in some ways, it's a science project a few years ago, and now it's this robust thing. Did you bring, I'm curious, did you bring mostly engineers, mostly managers, a mix of the two? >> Amr: Mostly engineers, yeah, mostly engineers. >> Hands on? >> All hands on, I mean, this is like another change in culture right now, where most of our engineers are in innovation, like, they are full stack engineers. We're using VDI process at this moment, to move forward. All our road maps, in turn, have been published, it's being used like evolving process, to go, like, with continuous deployment, and continues feature enhancement for the teams. So it's fantastic honestly, yeah. >> Okay, Amr, what things does your team hope to achieve this week, anything that is on your roadmap, or on the public open source road map that you're waiting on? We talked a little bit, service mesh? >> We're definitely exploring OPA at this moment. I think that's like, that's big potentials there. So that's one of them, yeah. I think going through that showroom and try to see what option we have as well, that's on the area where we going to be very interested at. >> OPA, the Policy Agent, I mean, you talked about compliance before >> Yeah. >> A few years ago, with folks in the financial industry, you would have some arguments, some discussions, sometimes heated discussions about security in the cloud and et cetera and highly regulated industry, yet, kind of, maybe ironically or somewhat, maybe surprisingly for some, right? Very advanced in many areas, the whole industry. That's well known if you're in it. Do you still have to have discussions about compliance and security in the cloud? Maybe, I guess, maybe when you talk about data locality and international borders more? >> Right, and that's why we already have our own policy management tool, which is built in, we build it ourself, and that's where I see the potential, like, our moving from building it yourself to more of using an open source project and try to reuse it and contribute back to that open source community, like something like OPA, for example. So that's the next generation, where I can see it will help us as well. >> Amr, any advice you'd give your peers out there, if they're new to the community? Things you've learned along the journey so far? >> I would say start small, don't boil the ocean. Start with small COEs, small pilots program. Look for success, look for goals. Technology is great, but don't just move toward technology, because it's a moving target, it will never end. Try to set business goals for you, like targets for your project, and that's how you can achieve success. >> Well, Amr, really appreciate you sharing Fidelity's update. >> Thank you. >> Wish you and your team the best of luck here at the show and beyond, and we definitely hope to catch up soon. >> Thank you, I appreciate it. >> All right, for John Troyer, I'm Stu Miniman, be sure to checkout theCUBE.net for all of the coverage of this, as well as all the cloud, Cloud Native, and more shows that we have. Thank you for watching theCUBE. (upbeat electronic music)

>> From San Francisco, it's theCUBE, covering Day2IQ, brought to you by Day2IQ. >> Hey, welcome back, everybody. Jeff Frick here with theCUBE. We're in downtown San Francisco at the Day2IQ headquarters. They used to be called Mesosphere. They rebranded the company. They've got a much bigger focus than just Mesos and supporting Mesos. So we're here to get the story, really talk about enterprise's journey to cloud native, and we're excited to have our first guest. He's Brian Kenyon, the chief strategy officer. Brian, great to see you. >> Thanks for having me. >> Absolutely. So DayQI, Day2IQ. >> Correct. >> I'm going to get it eventually, by the end of the day. Interesting name. What does Day2IQ mean? Why did you guys rebrand the company that? >> Yeah, absolutely. So we were formerly known as Mesosphere, and the technology that we founded the company on was an open source package called Mesos, so the name naturally had a very close tie with Mesos and Mesosphere. So as we looked to rebrand the company and really enter the market with some of the changes we've seen in the evolution of cloud native, we focused on where customers were having trouble, where they were focused on operations, how they were going to take these concepts and these great ideas that were pervasive in the concept of cloud native and make them institutionalized and operationalized inside their companies. And what we found was, you know, day zero is when you played around and tested things, and day one is when you got it installed and stood up, but day two is when you really focused on the operations. How do I make this enterprise-ready? How do I make this fit my business? All of that happened on day two and after. So we saw that as a pretty natural way to focus our energy and focus our market penetration on day two. >> Right. And you also expanded beyond just kind of the Mesos ecosystem into some other areas, in containers, in Kubernetes, also data. So you guys are taking a little broader approach than maybe the company had at the original launch. >> Yeah, absolutely. And you've heard from one of our founders already and you spoke to our head of engineering. So I'm the newest of those, right? I joined in February, so I'm just, you know, almost 10 months in. So when I joined, I spent a lot of time meeting with our customers, talking to partners, talking to other folks and vendors in the space, and what we saw was there was a massive shift happening from where cloud native started maybe three, four, five years ago to where it is today, and one of the biggest changes has been around the emergence of Kubernetes, which has turned into a de facto standard for containers in cloud native. And so as we've evolved and moved into this D2IQ name, as we've started focusing on meeting our customer, we've obviously taken on a bigger stance inside the Kubernetes community and the Kubernetes product lines. >> Right. So what did you see? I mean, you're a long-time security executive. You've been in strategy and security for years and years and years. What did you see in this opportunity with a small start-up to get you to leave kind of the safe, comfortable, pretty standard corporate job into jumping back into this-- >> Nobody's ever said security's safe, so that's awesome. >> Well, safe certainly in terms of job security. (mumbles) my goodness, a big shill out there these days. >> It is, it is. >> But what did you see? >> I saw the future, is really what I saw. When you really took a step back and you looked at where compute was going and how organizations were starting to adopt new application methodologies, new application architectures, it was very clear that cloud had taken on a big portion of that and the concept of cloud native and open source technologies was becoming more and more prominent. And so as we looked at this, not only did we see a unique opportunity with the cloud native space, but if you fast forward a couple years, customers are going to be coming back around and starting to have conversations around security. How do I secure this? What, how do my CISOs and my operational folks in security understand this and how do they really start to apply the same controls and visibility to it? So it was a unique opportunity to get in and focus on where the future of our industry's going. >> Right. So it's an interesting thing with open source, and open source specifically in the enterprise. I think my favorite open source quote is, yeah, it's free like a puppy. You know, it's not free. You need support and you need training and you need a lot of help. So when you guys work with enterprises and they're incorporating more and more open source into their technology stack, what are some of the challenges that you guys are coming in to help them to actually get beyond a simple free download and the latest cool version to actually running in production, heavy duty loads, really important workloads. >> Absolutely. Yeah, one of the biggest shortfalls we see is obviously expertise, right? So there's a massive amount of innovation and capability that can be, can really be captured through open source software. The challenge is, it's all community-based. So folks contribute code, they sign it in, it's available for everybody to use, but how long is that code updated for? How long is it maintained? How do new features get added? What you see is you see a huge spike in interest and enthusiasm, and then just like every other hype cycle, you get to a trough of disillusionment where people move on to the next thing and the next thing in the open source community. And so organizations who want to leverage that innovation, want to focus their operations around open source, either for cost savings or time to market, find themselves a couple years later looking at code that's been abandoned, projects that aren't maintained anymore. We saw this in security with things like OpenSSL, right? One of the largest SSL libraries used across the entire security landscape. There were two people in the world maintaining that code. And so when a massive security vulnerability hit, organizations were scrambling. We want to stop that now for organizations that want to use open source. We, Day2IQ, want to bring our innovation, our expertise, to bring that open source to the customers and make sure that it's enterprise-ready, it's enterprise-supported, and it's enterprise-scalable. >> Right. So you guys have basically three market offerings, if I understand right. You've got a solution set where you're taking the core software and building solutions around it. You've got services, professional services, to get it in, get it up, and probably supported, so I have a 1-800 somebody to call, please, which, you couldn't call those two people in that case. >> Exactly. >> And then training, is that right? So those are how you're basically enterprise-hardening an open source kernel to get to a great solution for the customer. >> Yeah, what I'd also add in there is services. So whether it's advisory services, implementation services, or just kind of more traditional, our focus is really about meeting the customer where they need us. If you look at cloud and cloud native today, almost every customer across the globe is at a different evolution or a different maturity in that journey, and so some are at the very beginning where they're learning. Others are more towards the end where they're focused on operations and how do I streamline this, how do I hire the right folks. So we've taken a product, services, support, and training strategy that allows us to meet our customers where they are in their cloud native journey and assures us that we can provide the right level of expertise regardless of where they are. >> Right. What's been the biggest, of all the challenges that you see when people are getting started, what's some of the biggest challenges that you just see over and over and over again that you know you're going to get walking in the door? >> Over and over, you see training is just a constant, across the entire industry. No matter where a customer is in their evolution or their journey, they're constantly having to train, whether they're hiring and then training folks on the new way of developing or they're taking developers who have been building code and building applications in virtual machines or old monoliths for years that they want to train to this new paradigm. Training is a huge constant. The other piece is people are looking to rationalize their infrastructure. So services, we are in a very services-led industry right now where we can come in and help customers get stock of where are we today and where do we want to go long-term, and then put them on a plan, put them on a program or a path where they can achieve those outcomes, but do it in a way that's not disruptive or adds (mumbles). >> Right, 'cause the complexity just continues to increase. It's funny, you know, both Amazon introduced a piece of Amazon Cloud you can stick in your data center, and Google introduced a piece of Google Cloud that you can stick in your data center, and Microsoft recently introduced a piece of Azure that you can stick in your data center. So kind of this, you know, kind of real aggressive embracing of hybrid and this real embracing of complex setups where you can partition your workload based on where you think that workload should run today is really gaining hold. So the complexity is only going up, not going down. >> It is, you're absolutely right. And I will tell you, what you just brought up is a great example of why the complexity's going up. On-prem is a massively different, materially different environment than the clouds. The clouds are built on a margin, right? They're built on, if I take the same server and do this over and over again, I get repeatability, I get consistency, I get a very finite platform. If you look at how on-prem is, the traditional data center, you buy some servers from Dell, some servers from HP, storage from EMC, storage from HP. You've got all different types of hardware and software in there. So fixing that on-prem cloud is hard, and the clouds are struggling with this because the concept of taking their very clean, vanilla infrastructure and bringing that to the traditional on-premise is failing. That's where we shine. That's where we've built. That's where Mesosphere got their initial start was taking the cloud concept and bring it to the traditional data center. So we're helping clouds extend now by being that on-prem piece that speaks seamlessly with the clouds that our customers choose to use. >> Right. So I think, too, initially, the cloud was seen as a way to save money, and I've seen that evolve over time. It's really much more about speed and agility in your development cycles and getting new products to market. Do customers grok that? Are they still kind of wrestling with the cost savings and this is kind of an alternative way to buy compute and networking and capacity, or are they really moving fast because of the speed and the competitive threats? >> So I think it's interesting, and it varies, but I will tell you just from my lens, I'll say that a lot of customers are confused. They went to the cloud initially because they believe they wanted to be out of the data center game. It was easier for Amazon or Microsoft or Google to manage the data center than it was for their own IT teams. And so they shifted infrastructure up there, and then what they saw was the promises of hyperscaling, the promises of this elasticity. Your application grows as more users show up. They never realized that because those applications were built under a different premise, under a different architecture, and don't leverage the cloud native capabilities. So you're seeing a shift of people who've moved infrastructure or applications to the cloud to get out of the data center are now saying, okay, I'm kind of locked in, but where do I get my operational efficiency? Where do I get my hyperscaling? How do I get that? And now you're staring to see that shift from just using the clouds as infrastructure to more moving towards microservices, containers, and some of the things that Day2IQ helps with. >> Right, right. It's pretty funny, too, right? 'Cause the apps used to have to be built for the infrastructure on which you were going to deploy them. >> That's right. >> That's now flipped upside down, right? Now the app, the infrastructure needs to support the app. The app comes first, the infrastructure second. >> That's right. >> So having an architecture, you got to have the new architecture. As you said, you just can't simply flip the functionality of an old architecture into a new paradigm. >> And then expect you're going to get the same outcomes. >> Right, right. >> Yeah, very true. >> All right, so before I let you go, I want to get your perspective specifically on security, 'cause again, you were in the security space for a long time. Security's a hot space. Everyone says security has to be baked in everywhere. It can't be the castle and moat anymore. So with your security hat on as you kind of see these migrations and you see these new deployments and you see this move to cloud native, what do you think about from security? Are people baking it in enough? Are they thinking about it in the right way? Is it just such a fundamental shift that they need to think about security and really baking it in from the bottom to the top? >> They absolutely do. And I'll tell you what the scariest thing is, if I go through my CISO networks and talk to folks who are on that side of the fence, they're not even educated to this cloud native space yet. They don't really understand how it's happening and how it's evolving and what that means. So there's a huge education that needs to happen in security, but these things need to be bolted on from the beginning. I'll give you an example. Some of the value that comes from operating cloud native is that your ability to push code and push changes is very agile and quick. So it's encouraged in a cloud native type of architecture that a company can make 100 to 200, 300 code changes a day. >> Right. >> Right? When I grew up, you'd make those monthly, quarterly, right? 'Cause you had a whole bunch of testing. And how they push code multiple times a day. If you don't have your security team in lockstep with those developers and operations staff, how quickly can you get out of compliance? How quickly can you erode your security posture? These are all questions that have to be answered, and we're just at the very earliest stages of getting that. >> Right, and we didn't even talk about IoT and edge devices. >> Absolutely. >> Which opens up a whole different kind of threat surface. >> Absolutely. >> Yeah. >> Absolutely. >> All right, Brian, well, thanks for taking a few minutes. Good luck on the journey and hope things go super for you here. >> Thanks for having me. >> All right, he's Brian, I'm Jeff. You're watching theCUBE. We're at Day2 headquarters, Day2IQ headquarters in downtown San Francisco. Thanks for watching. We'll see you next time. (techno music)

>> Live from Seattle, Washington it's the CUBE covering KubeCon and CloudNativeCon North America 2018. Brought to you by Red Hat, the Cloud Native Computing Foundation, and its ecosystem partners. >> Hey, welcome back, everyone. We are here live with CUBE coverage at KubeCon, CloudNativeCon 2018 in Seattle. I'm John Furrier with Stu Miniman your hosts all week, three days of coverage. We're in day two. 8,000 attendees, up from 4,000, spanning to China, in Europe, everywhere, the CNCF is expanding. The Linux Foundation, and the ecosystems expanding, we're here with Dan Kohn who's the executive director of the CNCF. Dan, great to see you. I know you work hard. (laughs) I see you out in China. You've done the work. You guys and the team have taken this hockey stick as it's described on the Twittersphere, really up and to the right, you've doubled, it's almost like Moore's law for attendance. (laughs) Doubling every six months. It's really a testament of how it's structured, how you guys are managing it, the balances that you go through. So congratulations. >> So thank you very much, and I'm thrilled that you guys have been with us through that whole ride, that we met here in Seattle two years ago at the first KubeCon we ran with 1,000 attendees. And here we are eight times higher two years later. But I absolutely do need to say it is the community that's growing, and we try and organize them a little bit and harness some of that excitement and energy and then there is a ton of logistics and effort that it takes to go from 28 members to 349 and to put on an event like this, but we do have an amazing team at the Linux Foundation and this is absolutely an all hands on deck where the entire events team is out here and working really hard. >> You guys are smart, you know what you're doing, and you have the right tone and posture, but you set it up right, so it's end user driven, it's open-source community as the core of the event, and you're seeing end users that have contributed, they're now consuming, you have vendors coming in, but you set the nice playbook up, and the downstream benefits of that open-source core has impacted IT, developers, average developers, and this is the magic. And you guys don't take too many hard stands on things, you take a good enough stand on the enablement piece of it. This is a critical piece. Explain the rationale because I think this is a success formula. You don't go too far and say, here's the CNCF stack. >> Right. >> You pull back a little bit on that and let the ecosystem enable it. Talk about that rationale because I think this is an important point. >> Sure and I would say that one of the huge advantages that CNCF has had is that we came later after a lot of other projects. So our parent, the Linux Foundation, has been around for 15 years. We've been able to leverage all of their expertise. We've looked at some of the mistakes that OpenStack, and Apache, and IETF, and other giants who came before us did, and our aspiration has always been to make entirely new mistakes rather than to replicate the old ones. But as you mentioned end user is a key focus, so when you look at our community, how CNCF is set up, we have a governing board that's mainly vendors, it does have developer and other reps on it. We have our technical oversight committee of these nine experts, kind of like our supreme court, and then we have this end user community that is feeding requirements and feedback back to the other group. >> I want to ask you about the structure, and I think this is important because you guys have a great governance model, but you have this concept of graduation. You have Kubernetes, and it's really solid, people are very happy with it, and there's always debates in open-source as you know, but there's a concept of graduating. Anyone can have projects, and explain that dynamic. 'Cause that's, I've heard people say, oh that's part of the CNCF, and well it hasn't graduated, but it's a project. It's important as a laddering there, explain that concept. I think this is important for people to understand that you're open, but there's kind of a model of graduation. What does it mean? >> Sure and it, people have said, oh you mean they've graduated, so they've left now, right? Like the kids leaving the home. And it's definitely not that model. Kubernetes is still very much part of CNCF. We're happy to do it. But we think that one of CNCF's functions is as a signaling and a marketing to enterprise users. And we like the cliche of crossing the chasm where we talk about 2018 was really the year that Kubernetes crossed the chasm. Went from as early adopters who'd been using it for years and were thrilled with it but they actually jump over now to the early majority. I will say though that the late majority, the laggards, the skeptics, they're not using these technologies yet. We still have a ton of opportunity for years to come on that. So we say the graduated projects, which today is not just Kubernetes but also Prometheus and Envoy. Those are the ones that are suitable for really any enterprise company, and that they should feel confident these are very mature, serious technologies for companies of all size. The majority of our projects are incubating. Those are great projects, technically capable, companies should absolutely use them if the use case fits, but they're less mature. And then we have this other category of the Sandbox, 11 projects in there, and we say look, these are incredibly promising. If you are technical enough and you have the use cases, you absolutely should consider it, but they are less mature. And then our hope is to help the projects move along that graduation phase. >> And that's how companies start. Bloomberg's plan, I thinking jumping into Sandbox, they'll start getting some code in there that'll attract some people, they get their code, they don't have to come back after the fact and join in. So you have the Sandbox, you've got projects, you've got graduation, so. >> Now Bloomberg's a little bit unusual, and I like them as an example where they have, I don't know if they mentioned this, but almost a philosophy not to spend money on software. And of course that's great. All of our projects are free and open-source, and they're willing to spend money on people, and they hire a spectacular group of engineers, and then they support everything in-house. But in reality, the vast majority of end users are very happy to work with the vendor, including a lot of our members, and pay for some of that support. And so a Bloomberg can be a little bit more adventurous than many, I think. >> Dan, I wonder if you can provide a little bit of context. I hear some people look at really kind of the conformance and certification that the CNCF does. And I think in many ways learn from the mistakes of some of the things we've done in the past because they'll see there's so many companies, it's like, well there's too many distributions. Maybe you could help explain the difference between a distribution-- >> Sure. >> And what's supported and how that makes sense. >> And I think when you look back at, and we just had, CNCF just had our three-year birthday this week, we have a little birthday cake on Twitter and everything. But if you look at all the activities we've been involved in over those three years, KubeCon, CloudNativeCon, we have a service provider program, we've done a lot of marketing, helping projects, I think it's the certification and the software conformance is the single thing that we've had done that's had the biggest impact on the community. And the idea here is that we wanted a way for individual companies to be able to make changes to Kubernetes because they all want to, but to still have confidence that you could take the same workload and move it between the different public clouds, between the different enterprise distros or just vanilla Kubernetes that you download or different installers out there. And so the solution was an open-source software conformance project that anyone can download these tasks and run them, and then a process where people upload the test results and say, yes my implementation is still conformant. I've made these changes, but I haven't broken anything. And we really have some amazing cases of our members, some of our biggest members, who had turned off APIs, maybe in their public cloud for good reasons. They said, oh this doesn't apply or we don't, but that's exactly the kind of thing that can cause incompatibility. >> Yeah, I mean that's critically important, and the other thing that is, what I haven't heard, is there's so many projects here. And we go to the Amazon show and it's like, I'm overwhelmed and I don't know what to do, and I can't keep up with everything. I'm actually surprised I don't hear that here because there are pockets, and this is multiple communities, not like a single monolithic community, so you've got, you know Envoy has their own little separate show and Operators has a thing on Friday that they're doing, and there's the Helm community and sometimes I'm putting many of the pieces together, but oftentimes I'm taking just a couple of the pieces. How do you manage this loosely coupled, it's like distributed architecture. >> Loosely coupled is a key phrase. I think the big advantage we have is our anchor tenant of Kubernetes has its own gravitational field. And so from a compatibility standpoint, we have this, excuse me, certification program for Kubernetes and then all of the other projects essentially ensure they're orbiting around and they ensure that they're compatible with Kubernetes, that also ensures they're compatible with each other. Now it's definitely the case that our projects are used beyond just Kubernetes. We were thrilled with Amazon's announcement two weeks ago of commercial support for Envoy and talking about how one of the things they loved about Envoy is that is doesn't just work on Kubernetes, they can use it on their proprietary ECS platform on their regular EC2 environment as well. And that's true for almost all of our projects. Prometheus is used in Mesos, is used in Docker Swarm, is used in VMs, but I do think that having so much traction and momentum around Kubernetes just is a forcing function for the whole community to come together and stay compatible. >> Well you guys did a great job. That happened last year. It's really to me is an example of a historic moment in the computer industry because this is a modern version of enabling technology that's going to enable a lot of value creation, a lot of wealth creation, a lot of customer, and it's all in a new way, so I think you guys really cracked the code on that and continued success. You've obviously had China going gangbusters, you're expanding, China by the way is one of the largest areas we've reported on Siliconangle.com and the CUBE in the past. China has emerged as one of the largest contributors and consumers of open-source given the rise of all the action going on in China. >> And we've been thrilled to see that, and I mean there was just the example yesterday where etcd is now the newest project, the newest incubating project in CNCF, and the co-creator of that and really the lead maintainer for it left CoreOS when it was acquired by Red Hat and is now with Alibaba. And he's originally from China. He is helping Alibaba just who's a platinum member of CNCF, who's been offering a certified Kubernetes service, but they're now looking at how they can move much more of their internal workloads over to it. JD.com has 25,000 servers. That's the second biggest retailer in China. >> It's a constituent. >> I was there six times last year. >> I know you were. >> I ran into you once in a hotel lobby. (laughing) >> What are you doing in China? It's huge, we're here. This is a big dynamic. This is new. I mean this is a big force and function. >> And to have so much energy, and I do also want to really emphasize the two-way street, that it's not just Chinese companies adopting these technologies that started in the US. >> They're contributing. >> We were thrilled a month ago to have Harbor come in as an incubating project and that started in China and is now being used across the world. >> Dan, 2019, you've got three shows again, Barcelona, Shanghai, and San Diego. >> Exactly. >> Of course the numbers are going to be up and to the right, but what else should we be looking for? >> So I think the two, so definitely China, we're going to continue doing it there, we continue to be relations serverless, we're thrilled with the progress of our serverless working group. They have this new cloud event spec, we have all of the different major clouds participating in it. The third area that I think you're going to see us that is somewhat new is looking at telcos. And our vision is that you can take a lot, most networking code today is done in virtual machines called virtual network functions. We think those should evolve to become cloud native network functions. The same networking code running in containers on Kubernetes. And so this is actually going to be our first time with a booth at Mobile World Congress in Barcelona in February. And we're going to be talking about-- >> Makes a lot of sense. IOT, over the top, a lot of enablement there. Makes inefficiencies in that inefficient stacks. >> Yeah, and on the edge as well. >> Dan, thanks for coming out, I appreciate it. Again, you've done the work, hard work, and continue it, great success, congratulations. I know it's early days still but. >> I hope it is. At some date Kubernetes is going to plateau. But it really doesn't feel like it'll be 2019. >> Yeah, it definitely is not boring. (laughing) Even though we had much more, Dan. >> Dan Kohn, executive director of the CNCF. Here inside the CUBE, breaking it all down, again, another successful show. Just the growth, this is the tsunami, it's a rise of Kubernetes and the ecosystem around it, creating values, the CUBE coverage, live here in Seattle. I'll be back with more coverage after this short break. I'm John Furrier with Stu Miniman. Be right back. (upbeat music)

>> Live from Seattle, Washington, it's theCUBE, covering KubeCon and CloudNativeCon North America 2018, brought to you by Red Hat, the Cloud Native Computing Foundation, and its ecosystem partners. >> Hello everyone, welcome back to the live Cube coverage here, three days at Seattle's KubeCon and CloudNativeCon. It's a conference put on by the Linux Foundation. Cube's been there from the beginning, breaking down all the action. 8,000 people, doubling attendance from the last one, now global, on a global scale, seen great traction in China and other areas around the world. It's about the cloud global. I'm John Furrier with Stu Miniman, our next guest, Kelsey Hightower with Google. Former code program share, now out in the wild on his own, super dope, playing with all kinds of new technology, it's great to see you, thanks for coming on. >> Proper you said the word dope, by the way, so congratulations there. I'm an attendee, I still have a keynote on Thursday but I do get to enjoy the floor like everyone else. >> So what's new, so you're now, again, there's a lot of pressure now every year. It's more and more people here, so it's a lot of pressure to kind of get all the action packed, but the growth has been pretty phenomenal. You've been looking at serverless, we saw some tweets, again you mention it's super dope, serverless is. You've got serverless, you've got a lot of stuff going on within the CNC app, you've got Kubernetes at the core. A lot of people like calling it the Kubernetes stack or the CNCF stack. Is it really a stack, is it really more of an operating model because there's stacks involved but how do you describe it, because this is a point of clarification. I mean, Kubernetes isn't necessarily a stack. Is it, how do people use it, what's the current state? >> I think when people say stack, you think about the LAMP stack, right? Linux, Apache, MySQL, it's a way of pre-packaging these ideas. This is something that worked for me, it may work for you, you say that enough times and then you say things like the Kubernetes stack. It's a quick, shorthand for Kubernetes and building on top of it. I think from the engineering perspective, when you look at Kubernetes and all the gaps that the CNC app is trying to fill these days, it's all this stuff you're probably building yourself, someone else is building it, and now we kind of have an outlet now. If you're working on a service mesh like list was, you have an outlet to give it to the rest of the world, open governance, and get some contributors. I think what we're seeing now is that hey, CNCF is kind of the place people go to figure out is someone building the thing that I've already started building and can I stop and just download that and go off? >> It's been very successful open source community, obviously, it's been end user leverage, it's been great and it's been open source, community led. Not so much vendor led, but vendors have been participating, so it's been great, but now as Kubernetes is going mainstream, the rise of Kubernetes is undeniable. No one can really deny that. Other end users are now coming in either to participate or to consume Kubernetes. How is that going in your mind? What's going on in the landscape, because people want multicloud, they want hybrid, they want choice. How are end users coming into the ecosystem to consume Kubernetes and the variety of goodness around it and what's going on there? Can you give some color around that option? >> I think regardless of the industry buzzwords like multicloud and hybrid and all that, Kubernetes is good on its own. It solves a lot of problems that your previous tools didn't solve, so people are gravitating towards it regardless in that direction. When you start to talk about portability, yes, it's nice to have two different environments and have the same tools work in a similar way between those environments, that's working well. The people that started three years ago that were doing it themselves, they're finding value and treating that as a service. We saw this happen to DNS, e-mail, so people are saying maybe the value isn't running it myself, so now you kind of see the vendor ecosystem understand what the value is. For a lot of the cloud providers, it's running Kubernetes, patching it, updating it, upgrading it, so that you can go focus on the other parts on top. That's where I think we are as an industry, and then there's gaps to fill, so that's where you see things like native, people building CI-CD tools on top, that's just where the new opportunities are so I think we've kind of matured. People kind of know what Kubernetes is, they know where their value line is for Kubernetes, now they're looking for their partners or vendors or community to just layer the new stuff on top. >> Kelsey, you bring up a great point there because understanding that line of what I should do myself and what I have to do versus what I can buy, consume as a service, is really tough for people, you know. I always say, ask IT departments, what do you really suck at? Because there's somebody else that probably does it better. A year ago, when I talked to users at this show, they were really downloading stuff, putting their things together, and when you asked them why, it was well, the Azure stuff hasn't matured. It just released, Amazon, I'm not sure where they're going with it. It feels like a lot has changed in the last year. You did Amazon the hard way a little over a year ago. What has changed over the last year, you know. >> We saw this with Linux, right? >> Are we ready for that, yeah. >> In Linux everyone use to build their own Linux distro, you took pride in it, using Gentoo and Slackware, and then you're like, I'm tired of that so you go get Red Hat or Ubuntu and call it good, and then you go focus on the other things. Naturally, Kubernetes is early project, has lots of gaps, you can fill those gaps by gluing together open source yourself, but now most of the managed services fill in the gaps by default. You click a button in GKE and a thing comes up, it's secure, has most of the pieces you need, it's integrated, you're like alright, I'm done with that part. >> The other thing, we talked a year ago. There's lots of companies here that are involved in Kubernetes. We've got over 70 that are compliant, and then you've got the service providers. From what I hear, it's people aren't trying to differentiate with Kubernetes and that's probably a good thing. It's something that's going to be baked into the platform, it's something you're going to consume with the other services that I offer, what do you say? >> If you make it different, then it won't work. >> Right. >> It'll be a different thing, so if you make it too different then you lose most of the benefits that we're all talking about here. The ability to learn a set of abstractions once, kind of like we did on Linux, if you start changing the system calls on Linux, then it's not Linux anymore, it's a different thing. >> Just to clarify though, if I'm running in one cloud that has their Kubernetes and I want to go to another, is it similar enough? Can I make that move? Do I need a vendor-independent version? >> So I think up to this value line I've run this container, ship the log somewhere, give me a way to secure access, that's pretty standard. Give me a load balancer. What isn't standard is how do I do CI-DC on top of that, that's not standard. There's different opinions on how to do that. If I'm in Google Cloud, we have IEM one way, Azure has IEM a different way, and same thing for Amazon. There's things around networking, security, that are going to be different based on the environment you're in. Same for on-prem, and that's where you start to look for help. If I go to Google, I'm going to use GKE maybe instead of running it myself on just a bunch of VMs, so that's where you kind of see that little divide. >> Is that going to be custom work, that's a great point, security for instance, we'll just pull that out there. Is that going to automate and be seamless or is that going to be a work area that's always going to have to be differentiated or coded or? >> So for example, we have the big vulnerability recently in Kubernetes world, right? >> It's a big CVE, it affected everyone running Kubernetes. That's a thing, as a vendor, for us GKE people, we upgraded automatically for them and said hey, there's a CVE, it's going to be really scary when you read about it but hey, you're patched. We've taken care of you, so I think people will still look for that relationship. Will it always be custom? At the app level, that is a different story. When you run your container and you want to access the things in your environment, so if you're in Google Cloud you may want to talk to Spanner, you're going to need an IEM set of credentials. That's a little out of scope of Kubernetes, so that's going to be integration work that the provider will do. >> So the holy trinity of computing industry has always been storage, network, and compute, and it changes certainly with cloud and all the goodness that comes out from serverless and whatnot, so containers is interesting. We always love containers but I've heard conversations recently where it's like hey, I want to treat containers not as a first class citizen because it doesn't meet my security boundary. I'm going to put a VM around that and run that under the covers with say, Lambda. Is that feasible, is than an option? I've heard talk about it, is anyone doing that? Is that an alternative, is this going to introduce new elements? >> Let's put it right, in Kubernetes by defaults we chose to build on top of Docker. Industry momentum, great developer workflow, but you're right, it made a security trade off. We know VMs are a much tighter security boundary that people are comfortable with. In that world, at that time, they were too slow for what we needed to happen. Thanks to Intel and others who pulled the thread of let's make VMs faster. Recently you heard the announcement of Firecracker, right, it's part of a derivative from the Chrome VM and that thing is optimized for these kinds of workloads, containers and serverless workloads. Now we go from 10, 20 seconds to hundred milliseconds. Now it makes sense to probably have this become an underlying thing. Now that we have the speed, maybe people say hey, we can maybe take the security without sacrificing the performance. >> That's the trade off. >> Pulled on the thread, you mentioned Firecracker. There's still this tension between what's happening in Kubernetes and serverless. We saw Knative is a hot topic point. It's probably natural that there's some tension there because it's like oh wait, why do you need to learn any of this stuff because if serverless will just make it as a service and make it easy and you don't need to learn all that container stuff and everything, what do you say? >> If you're a Kubernetes user, if you really think about the very broad definition of serverless, meaning I'm not managing the database, I'm using a managed database, serverless database. Storage, I'm using S3 or Google Cloud storage, serverless. Your load balancer, also serverless. So most people in the Kubernetes ecosystem, networking, serverless, storage, serverless, their database, serverless. The only thing that you can say isn't serverless is this compute component, everything else is. Now people are looking at serverless as this spectrum. How serverless are you? If you're on-prem and you buy a server and you rack it and install Kubernetes, you're less serverless, you're probably not serverless at all, no matter what you do. Now, if you put a lot of work in, you can probably put a serverless interface on top. This is what native is designed to do for people. Maybe you have an organization that supports multiple businesses inside of your org. They may not know anything about Kubernetes. You just tell them hey, put your code here, it will run, oh, that feels serverless. You can provide a serverless experience. The delta then becomes what can we do between a container and a function, so the foundation of my keynote is exactly that. What does it mean to take a container and put it into Lambda? What do you have to change? In my presentation, I don't even read write the code. There's a small shim between the two worlds because you're already using managed services around it. We're not talking about throwing away Kubernetes and then starting over our entire architecture. We're swapping out the compute layer. One is a subset of the other. Lambda is about events and functions, Kubernetes is about container and run it however you want. You want to run it when an event comes in, that's native. You want to run it as a batch job, run it as a job. You want to run it as a long running service, run it as a deployment, so that's all we're really talking about here. When we break it down, you're just talking about compute. >> You talk a lot about automation in the CI-CD areas, that differentiation where the value is. In a world as automation goes faster, what does Kubernetes look like when it becomes automated away? Because I don't want to manage anything, why even have managed Kubernetes? It should just automatically, you mentioned the patching. In an automated world, is Kubernetes just running under the covers, how does Kubernetes look down the road in your mind, in terms of when automation comes in? >> I've been in this game maybe over 15 years and one thing holds true: most developers want to focus on the business logic. We hire them because that's their skillset. When they check in code, it would be really nice if you can take it from there and get it where it needs to be. That's been the holy grail. We see it in mobile, you build an app, you put it on the App Store, Apple gets it to every device on the planet, done. Now it's the server side turn to do this. Whether you're doing serverless functions, Kubernetes, VMWare, or Linux, if you have CI-CD in front of any of that, the developer can still have the same experience. I check in code and you're picking a different deploy target. If you did that five years ago, and you understood it, and you were using, let's say maybe Mesos or just VMs, you bring in Kubernetes, you don't even have to change this part of the equation. This is why I tell most people, just focus on this endgame. My keynote last year was about this is the endgame because this is your coacher, this is your change management process, this is your discipline, and this is just a target where that compute goes. >> Alright, we've got two minutes left. I want to get your thoughts and share with the audience who's not here, a big waiting list, I know there's some lobby con going on all around Seattle, people flew in. Great place too to actually have some good lobby con meetings around the lobby area. So what's happening here, in your mind's eye, now you're not in the throes of all the events, you're kind of in the wild here with us, everyone else. What's the top story, what's going on, what's the vibe, what are you extracting out of all this activity as a top story, top level stories here? >> I think everyone's finding their place. If you're a security vendor, you kind of know where your line is, right? I've got this Twistlock shirt on. They want to plan a world where they need to integrate closer to the developer workflow, not just on the infrastructure side. If you're selling load balancers, service mesh is a thing, where do you fit in? The lines are getting a lot clearer. Kubernetes is starting to say maybe we should stop here. Maybe service measures should take it from here and that's where Istio comes in. Traditional vendors can now play in this well-defined space. On the storage side, what are you integrating? Now we have the storage interface, like the container storage interface. Now, if you're a net app, you know where you fit into the puzzle. You don't need to have your own Kubernetes distro. Two years ago, everyone was trying to come out with their own Kubernetes distro so they can actually have an anchor. Now you're like, ah, now I know where to play and now we also know what's missing. After years of doing this, people look back and say there's a lot of stuff missing. It's OK now to go create something new. >> It's a clear visibility into the landscape. What about the impact to end users? What is notable in your mind in terms of highlights, impact to end user organizations really going through this quote digital transformation, which is very cloud-based of course, but they're certainly changing and impacting, what's your thoughts on the end user? >> We're using some of the same words now. Forget the technology piece, now we can all start to talk about the same things, so when we say container, we kind of now are talking about the same thing. When we start to talk about sidecars, whether that's a service mesh, Envoy sidecar, or something that adapts your existing code to the new world, now that we're using the same language, we can actually talk. Traditional enterprise can talk to the startups and have a meaningful conversation. >> That's awesome, any other observations here in terms of the size of the show? Got a lot more activity, feels a little bit like re:Invent, I'm bumping into people, swimming through the crowds, the swag's hot. >> It's 8,000 people here and it feels like there's more users that know nothing about Kubernetes so even though we're about five years in, it reminds me of when we were just getting started. >> Lot more work to do but great, congratulations on all the work you've done Kelsey. Really appreciate you taking the time every year to come on theCUBE. We love having you on, great commentary, great keynotes, very entertaining. Thanks for coming on, appreciate it. >> Awesome, thank you. >> I'm John Furrier, Cube here with Kelsey Hightower telling us about all the breakdown of KubeCon, CloudNativeCon, the beginning of the cloud tsunami is happening, certainly changing businesses, changing open source, it's changing, it's on a global scale. We're here with coverage for three days. We'll be right back with more after this short break.

>> Live from Las Vegas, it's theCUBE covering AWS re:Invent 2018, brought to you by Amazon Web Services, Intel, and their ecosystem partners. (techy music) >> Hey, welcome back, everybody. Jeff Frick here with theCUBE, we're at AWS re:Invent 2018 in Las Vegas, day two of four days of coverage. I think we'll do 120 interviews. I mean, this is the most poppin' show in tech right now. We're really excited to be here, and joined by my cohost, Lauren Cooney. Lauren, great to see you. >> Thank you. Great to see you, too. >> And we've got... (chuckling) We've got our next guest, it's Disha Chopra, she's a senior manager, product line manager for Juniper Networks, welcome. >> Thank you, feels great to be here. >> Good. >> So, what do you think of this show, have you been to re:Invent before? >> Oh, my God, no, this is my first one, and I am so excited. The energy is so great, it's vibrant, I'm learning a lot, I'm very happy to be here. >> So, Juniper's been around for a long time, way predating this cloud, this whole cloud thing, so what are you guys up to, what's the latest, and really, why are you here at re:Invent? What's your story with AWS? >> Yeah, absolutely. So, I think the latest thing with us is as early as today there was... We were posted on the AWS partner solution website. Vodafone is partnering with Juniper for their SD-WAN offering with, you know, the SD-WAN controller that's sitting in AWS, managing all their branch offices, so that's what's the newest with us, and you know, we've been making waves with a lot of partnerships recently. Couple of months ago, or maybe just a month ago, we announced with Nutanix, so that announcement was focused more for our enterprise customers. Integration with Nutanix is a hyperconverged infrastructure where Juniper will be, you know, integral part of their networking, providing for their converged infrastructure, and then before that, I think a few months ago we had Red Hat. We announced a partnership with Red Hat, and you know, that's focused on our telco cloud. So, as you were mentioning, Juniper's been around for a long time-- >> Right. >> And you know, telco clouds are our strong suite. Telcos, now telco cloud, right, and similarly for enterprise. If you think about it, you know, large enterprises and telcos, they're not that different, right? So, that's where we were at, and that's more kind of... We're following the evolution like our customers are, right? They used to be telco, now they're telco cloud. Juniper, I think the newest thing with Juniper, to be honest, in technology I spoke about partnerships, but it's our cloud-first strategy. That's what we have in mind. We are evolving with our customers, helping them in their journey for cloud adoption, cloud migration, right? It's a couple of sentences to say that, "Oh, we're helping our customers with cloud migration," but we're, you know, there's so many steps in between. They are very complex, you need a lot of handholding, and we're right there for our customers. >> So, what does that actually mean when you are, you know, saying that you're helping your customers? Are you working with them to bring them multicloud solutions from AWS and Microsoft and Google, or you know-- >> Correct, exactly. >> Can you give me a scenario or a use case? >> Yeah, absolutely, so like I was saying, traditionally, Juniper was, you know, a hardware-focused company, so our existing customer base, they bought a lot of big, heavy boxes from us, and of course, on top of it came a world class routing and switching software component, right, and it was all bundled up and sold together. Now, you know, they're moving towards the cloud, towards AWS, towards GCP, towards Azure. We want to be able to provide to them, and who better to provide this service to them. We understand their on-prem network. We understand cloud networking. We understand the transport in between. So, what we're doing is for our customers we manage their existing on-prem network, which you know, a lot of our customers, you know, they're huge and they have a significant amount of footprint, global footprint, right, so we understand that, we're able to connect them to the AWS, to the GCP, to the Azure, right, and the value proposition for them is that if they wanted to do it themselves they have to understand, you know, three different or five different clouds, right. You have IBM, you have DigitalOcean. There's a lot out there, right, and getting the opecs or getting the talent to be able to understand all these things and do the migration, it's hard, right? This is a complex problem to solve, so what Juniper brings to the table is we abstract it out. So, for example, I wanted to move-- >> Yeah, well I just want to say, you know, one of the things that you're talking about here, and this is a total switch, if I'm right, is are you becoming a managed service provider? >> We do have a managed service-- >> Because it sounds like you're going to be putting a lot more money into that side of the business-- >> Correct. >> Versus the straight-up product side of the business. >> Yeah, yeah, that's where we are pivoting from, you know, we want... Our perception used to be that we're a hardware company, now we're a cloud-first company. We're a software company, so we're definitely pivoting towards the, you know software-based solutions, software-based, you know, offerings. It's like your iPhone, right, or your phone. You buy the hardware but you're really buying it for the iOS or for the applications that run on it. Networking is following a similar paradigm now, right? The hardware boxes, they're definitely our bread and butter still, but it's the software now that's enabling and giving it all the cool factor and the innovation that's happening, it's all in the software. Contrail, that's our story for multicloud. That's one of our product offerings. So, what Contrail does is, and I think that's what I was kind of referring to earlier, it gives you that higher level of abstraction where you don't have to worry about: "Is my workload running in AWS? "Is my workload running in GCP?" It doesn't matter, right, you as a enterprise, or as a telco, we want you to focus on, you know, powering your applications, powering your services. We don't want you to worry about your infrastructure, that's our job, right? We want to completely hide all the complexity away from you, and just, you know, let you do what generates revenue. >> So, as an application developer, right, so I'm an application developer and I use Azure, for example, right-- >> Yeah. >> And that's kind of my platform, and I'm, you know, doing some interesting stuff with like, you know, some scripting, or I'm building, you know, just a general, like, new website or something like that with, you know, a couple different things. So, as a developer at that level, I don't even know about Contrail. >> Exactly, exactly. >> Exactly, but I don't think Contrail yet extends up to that layer where it can manage everything across multiple clouds. >> So, it provides you as a developer, like you said, you're writing an application, you don't care about the infrastructure. It's just there, right? >> Mm-hm. >> And we want to keep it that way. Contrail is there, Contrail is at that level. Contrail is going to provide the plumbing, so you as a developer, today everything, all developers are moving towards containers, right? So, for example, the Red Hat partnership that I brought up earlier, that's focused on the Red Hat OpenShift platform, their path service, which is a container-based service. Contrail integrates with Kubernetes, we integrate with Mesos, we integrate with Docker. So, as a developer, when you employ these tools to write your code, you know, using a CICD platform, Contrail is sitting right under it, giving you that connectivity. So, for example, when you're developing your application and (clearing throat) you know, you deploy it, you deploy part of it in Azure, you deploy part of it in AWS, right, and you don't care where it goes, you just-- >> Or you use one for, like, bursting or something like that. >> Exactly, yeah, yeah. >> You know, the rest of it on-prem. >> Correct, so-- >> That sort of thing. >> You know, it's distributed, right? So, who's going to plumb it and make sure that it's giving you the results that you need? That's where Contrail comes in. Gives you that plumbing between on-prem, between AWS. >> So, how is that different from Kubernetes as a whole? Like, I know that it's, you know, it does like container management, orchestration, deployment-- >> Correct. >> Delivery, how does-- >> Right. >> Contrail kind of come in and work with Kubernetes? >> Right. So, great question, by the way, you know your stuff, so (laughing) Kubernetes is... Kubernetes is orchestration for your workloads, right? It's services, Kubernetes provides a service, like it gives you a service web. You deploy a bunch of Kubernetes minions, they all work together to give you that application that you need. Now, what Contrail does is it provides the networking between those Kubernetes pods. So, let's say you want to scale up your application. Okay, you had 10 pods, now you want to go to 20. Kubernetes makes that decision for you that you need the 20 pods, and then Contrail is sitting under it giving you the networking for those 20 pods. So, when those 20 pods spin up, Kubernetes pokes Contrail and says, "Hey, 20 more, and these need to talk to "those 10 pods that were already there," right? >> So, Contrail is opensource, right? >> Correct. >> Why haven't you donated it yet to the CNCF? >> (chuckling) We are part of CNCF, we recently-- >> I know that. >> Yeah. >> But fundamentally, if you want that to be pulled as much as you do... >> Yeah. >> It's already opensource. >> Yeah, you're right. >> You might as well kind of get on that thread with the Kubernetes folks-- >> Right, yeah. >> And start talking to them about how you make it part of, you know, the core distribution that then goes into, you know, six different distro. >> Correct, correct, yeah. >> You know, something along those lines versus don't start your own distro. (chuckling) >> Sorry. >> Right, don't start your own distro, but look at how you can become integrated into that Kubernetes stream, the main stream. >> Correct, yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. Yeah, no, that is definitely something that, like you're saying, it's something that we, you know, we want to do, that's the direction that we want to go at, but I think the actual decision is maybe above my pay grade, so I don't (chuckling) want to make a commitment here. >> Fair enough. >> So, you know... (chuckling) >> Disha, I want to followup on a slightly different track. When you talk about cloud-first, and you answered the question, which is when you say cloud-first, is that, you know, kind of the way you're going to market with your customers, or is that the way you guys are looking at Juniper in terms of transforming the company? >> Mm-hm. >> And it sounds like you said it's more of the latter, really starting to reformulate Juniper-- >> Correct. >> As a cloud first service company. >> Exactly. >> So, how is that transformation going inside the company, that's a pretty significant-- >> It is, it is, yeah. >> Shift from selling boxes and maintenance agreements and-- >> Yeah. >> Shipping metal. >> Yeah, we are definitely modernizing from within, right, but a lot of it is driven by our customers. Like I was saying, you know, they are evolving, they want to connect to the cloud, and you know, we obviously want to help them do that. As part of that, we want to be microservices-based, right, because we want to be able to support containers. These are just things that, you know, we need to do. Juniper is a leader as far as, you know, innovation and networking is concerned. >> Right, right. >> So, it was never a question of if we want to do this, or if we want to go down this path or not, right, it's when, right? >> Right, right. >> And we are definitely working day in and day out to make that happen, so you know, a lot of our offerings, like recently we came out with our containerized SRX solution. SRX is our full-feature, full-service, next generation firewall, and we have containerized it, right. I believe it's the first offering of its kind, containerized, host-based firewall, so you know, innovative stuff happening all the time. Like you said, you know, it's definitely a Herculean task-- >> Right, right. >> But we're up for it-- >> Right. >> And we're doing it. >> And I'm just curious to when the customer conversations-- >> Yeah. >> You know, the hybrid cloud, multicloud, public cloud conversation, right, it's a lot of conversation. How do you take your customers down the path? Where do you see them, you know, trying to navigate in what's got to be a pretty complex world for-- >> It is, definitely. >> A CIO trying to figure out what they're supposed to buy and not buy, how to pay attention, can I hit all the booths-- >> Right, right, right, right. >> Here at AWS in three days, I don't think so. >> (laughing) I know, yeah, these conversations, to be honest, have been going for the past couple of years, right. A lot of our customers, the intent is there to move to the cloud, and you know, we are trying to help them with it, so you know, we design with them. We design their network, we design their topologies, we handhold them telling them how to do this, right, their existing networks that they have. The complexity comes in because everything, right, think of a company, right, a large company. It then goes ahead and acquires 10 more, and they all have their own networks, they all have their own environments, VMware, Red Hat, you know, Tabix, so different kinds of environments now all need to connect to the cloud. You don't want them to be siloed. You also don't want to deal with, you know, all those different kinds of, like I was saying, you know, skillset to be able to connect them all individually. So, when we talk to our customers, that's what we tell them, that you know, with a Juniper-based solution we have so many of them that work together in a cohesive way to give you that end-to-end connectivity. Secure, automated multicloud, that's our mantra, right, and it's as far as, you know, engineering is concerned, engineering simplicity. If you come down to Juniper it's plastered all over the walls, right, engineering simplicity. We were really driving that message internally so that... And a lot of the CICD stuff, right? The way we want our customers to use it is how we're using it, so that, you know, that improves our quality, that improves reliability, and all those things. So, in terms of handling our customers, we talk, you know, we're there on the table day one. We talk to them about their design. I see that a lot of our customers, currently where they're at is they are trying to connect to the cloud. They all want to move towards the container, you know, the containerized services. They know that's the right thing to do. They're not quite there yet, right? The intent is definitely there, they're playing with it, but in terms of being in production, we're still, you know, a little bit off. Not too much, but we'll get there soon, right. So, we talk to them, we talk about, you know, how they can make their applications cloud ready. There's a couple of ways to do it. You lift and shift, or you know, directly move, go cloud native. >> Right, right. >> So, we have all these discussions with them. You know, what fits their bill, right? What is good for them, what is it that's going to work for them? And then, you know, of course the connectivity piece, right, but with it security, reliability, and scale. Right, a company like Juniper obviously, you know, innovator in networking, we solve problems at a different level, right? >> Right, right. >> For our much larger customers. So, we talk to them about scale, we talk to them about, you know, reliable security is huge, right. You have a workload that you spun up on-prem, and then, now, you know, you have... Your requirements have changed, you're going to have to replicate it, say, in AWS. When you replicate it, you still want the same security that you had on-prem to apply to this workload, which is now going to be in AWS, how do you do that? It's easy with Contrail, right, because it's intent-driven. You specify the intent, in fact, you specified the intent when you brought up the first workload, and it captured it, "Okay, I'm supposed to talk to..." You know, say I'm workload red and I can only talk to other red workloads and I cannot talk to the blue workloads, something like that, right? >> Right, right. >> So, you specify the intent, and then when that red workload now comes up in AWS, it already knows that I wasn't supposed to talk to the green workload, so that policy and all the intent moves with that workload. >> Right, right. >> And this is all done through Contrail, right, and the other thing, that single pane of glass. I'm sure you've heard about it a lot today, right. The single pane of glass, you specify it one time. Again, the abstraction away from all those, you know, five clouds that you're working with, you specify the red workload, the policy for the red workload one time, and then it doesn't matter where you bring it up, Contrail will automatically apply it everywhere, and you know, it's good to go. >> That's great. >> Well, Disha, thanks for coming on, you certainly got the energy to attack this big problem, so... (laughing) Juniper's fortunate to have you. >> Great, thank you for having me. >> Thanks for coming on and sharing the story. >> It's been wonderful talking to you guys. >> All right, Disha, she's Lauren, I'm Jeff. You're watching theCUBE, we're at AWS re:Invent 2018. Come on down, we're in the main expo hall right by the center, thanks for watching. (techy music)

>> Live from Orlando, Florida, it's theCUBE covering Microsoft Ignite. Brought to you by Cohesity and theCUBE's ecosystem partners. >> Welcome back, everyone, to theCUBE's live coverage of Microsoft Ignite. I'm your host, Rebecca Knight, along with my cohost, Stu Miniman. We're joined by Patrick O'Reilly of O'Reilly Venture Partners based in San Francisco. Thanks so much for coming on theCUBE, Patrick. >> Thanks for having me. >> So, you are a serial entrepreneur now working as a VC, what are you doing here? Tell us why you came to Ignite. >> Yeah, well selfishly on the VC side we have a few of our portfolio companies here that have booths, and I wanted to kind of hear what people are asking, you know, why they're interested in the companies and how we're framing, you know, those companies to the end users. I think these type of events are really good to unlock hidden potential, or things that people can tell you that you wouldn't actually have thought about, yeah. >> Yeah, so Patrick, you know, I've known you for a number of years. Usually see you at the opensource shows. Microsoft, you know, publicly very embracing opensource. You know, they love Linux, partnering with Red Hat, even you know, partnering is a lot of things that Microsoft does. They were working with VMware. What's your viewpoint as to how you see Microsoft and the opensource world, and how about this ecosystem? Is this a vibrant ecosystem that, you know, VCs are investing in, or is it just that there's companies of yours that, you know, this is part of the story. >> No, and I think historically we've had the, you know, build versus buy, you know, kind of way of looking at it, but when I typically think of Microsoft, it's more people building glue, you know, code to kind of connect things together, and you tend to have blinders on and not think about what opensource components you can use. You know, you look for like what company has a solution you can buy, or license or OEM, and I think that's changing, you know, over time. You know, Microsoft does an amazing job with developers of giving them very easy to understand languages and amazing tooling, and along with that the documentation and the training, so I kind of felt like you came into development one of two ways. You either were like on the Microsoft track and using the cookie cutter approach, you know, to doing things and getting certified on something, or you were opensource, you learned the scripting language and you just looked at what you can cobble together in the opensource world, and there wasn't a lot of crosspollination, but now I see that those walls kind of dissolving. People are willing to mix and match. >> Yeah, it's interesting, you know, some places I've seen Microsoft, a lot in the Kubernetes show, so you know, first got to know you you were at Kismetic, you know, really the first company around Kubernetes that we knew. You know, I know you're doing a lot of different things but we love your viewpoint on, you know, anything on Microsoft in that space, as well as just what you've seen, you know, as a watcher of the Kubernetes space these days. >> Yeah, I mean I've been... You know, if I step back from Kubernetes, you know, back to like the Apache Mesos and the Mesosphere days, you know, if you rewind all the way back there you kind of had to do a lot of education of like, "What do you mean 'containerization?' "I have VMs, why do I need containers?" And now that we've gotten past that and people actually understand the value of containers, like having an orchestration system in place that works and works with everything, you know, is obviously more important than ever, and it's... I really credit the CNCF and the Linux Foundation for what they've done to kind of bring standards around Kubernetes and shepherd the project, and I think that, you know, the fairly recent announcement from Google that they're fully trusting, you know, CNCF to be the shepherd of that is huge, and it gives a framework for people, like Gabe at Microsoft, to work with, you know, some of the staff at Google, and like, in a collaborative way and move it forward for everyone, and I think, you know, historically containers made a ton of sense on Linux, but now that we have Windows server, you know, supporting containers and theCUBE working, you know, on Windows, I think in the 111... Or sorry, 113 release we'll have full Windows server, you know, support in Kubernetes, like that'll be huge. And just a quick aside, like the reason I even kind of honed in on containers and thought it was interesting is the average server utilization is still so low, but we're not really trained as technologists to care about that, and you know, we're really good at building data centers and tucking them off in places where no one sees, but when the average server's taking like... It's like running a hairdryer on high, you know, for electricity and then they run so hot you have to cool it. Like, we're really not helping the environment, so I think if we can move towards containerization, move towards efficient utilization of our hardware, you know, it'll be better for everyone, not just this ecosystem, so... >> So, talk to, tell our viewers a little bit about your portfolios and your portfolio companies that are here, and how they fit into the ecosystem. >> Yeah, so the one I'm most excited about, or shouldn't probably say it that way, I'll reframe that-- >> Can't have favorites, they're all your babies. (laughs) >> Yeah, they're all my babies. (laughs) >> But Ziften Technologies is great. I think their integration with the Windows, the vendor ATP, you know, advanced threat protection, you know, tool is great. They focus on the Mac and the Linux components and give you that same kind of pane of glass on the Microsoft side to see those endpoints, and like their utilization of AI, like they have an upcoming release where they're using AI to do things, and traditionally in that space it's been like the AB vendors, you know, doing everything and you had kind of, "Here's our signatures, "we're going to scan against those signatures," and it's a creative use of AI now to, like, look for just anomaly detections. These are the things we haven't seen before. Not sure what it is but it looks abnormal, and those are the kind of like spin-outs of companies that I'm looking for, too. Like I want to see people doing more meaningful things, you know, with AI. I think if we look at Azure and what they're offering now, like I don't need to have a bunch of data scientists at my startup. I can implement computer vision just using what off-the-shelf components, you know, from Microsoft and you know, Azure. I can do video indexing, you know, using their services. Like, if I rewind just back three years I would've had to have a team of like four data scientists. They'd be reading whitepapers, they'd be implementing code that like sort of half works, and they would probably take half a year to train some models to get, like, moderate results, and now in a matter of minutes, you know, I can use this off-the-shelf stuff. >> Yeah, it's fascinating, I think back to, you know, we were pretty early at theCUBE at watching the whole big data trend, and back then it was like, "Okay, we're going to "take that two-year project and you know, "drive it down to six months," and now we talk in the AI space is, you know, how can we drive that down even more. In big data there was concern, everything seemed to be custom. In AI we're starting to get to more templatized solutions, rolling out for a lot of industries, and it feels like it's taking off a lot faster than that space is, and I know there's a lot of investment going on in the space, and a lot there, so... Anything in particular, you know, what excites you, what makes a good, you know, AI investment versus, you know, there's just so much happening out there. >> Well, you know, I... I struggle with the name AI a little bit. >> Yeah, no, no, I understand, yeah. >> I'm working on a talk, and you know, I kind of like don't, I don't enjoy the artificial aspect of it because it's really just intelligence, and you know, right now it's a buzzword people are throwing into everything when really they mean, "We use an algorithm." (laughs) You know, it's not truly AI, but when we get to cognition we get, you know, to, you know, someday if we have quantum supremacy we'll have, you know, systems that actually can maybe have a consciousness, you know, and decide things. That's where I'm interested, I'm looking... Like on the devops side I'm looking for people using AI to get away with repetitive tasks. Like I would love to see, you know, someone have a system where it's like, "Hey, we've noticed, you know, 90 times "this week this guy's done this exact "same thing, you know, 99% the same way." Like, let's automate that away. You know, we've been really good in the space to kind of treat infrastructure like code, you know, and be able to tear things up. Like I mean, I've been incredibly excited to see, like just in my career, how we went from, "Okay, you're going to do something meaningful on the web. "You need to build a data center. "You need to, you know, get a bunch of servers, racks," and then you pay all this equipment and oh, by the way, 18 months from now it's going to be obsolete and you're going to have to spend money again, to where now I can just, you know, get some credits to start up in the cloud, you know, try things out and do like really meaningful things. So, just looking for anyone on AI that's going to do something that moves the needle. >> Yeah, now that, yeah, just on the terminology piece, I've lived through the cloud wars and the argument over what was and what isn't, so it's just, you know, the shorthand for this wave that we have there, where AI or ML, or you know, IBM has some interesting terms that they want to call it. We understand that there's intelligence that I can do with software, a lot of machine-to-machine things that are going on, and it's not a lot of, you know, shouldn't be a lot of heavy lifting by people to go in there. Oh, wait, I can train something, I can learn what's happening, so... >> Well, I wanted to ask when... I'm sure a lot of entrepreneurs ears are pricking up when they hear that you want to make these meaningful investments. What is it that you look for in a company, is it... In terms of the leadership team, in terms of any track record, what sort of makes your eyes light up? >> So, I try to go to as many conferences as I can, because I feel that's where, you know, the hallway track and I can meet people. I can see, you know, their talks, see what they're passionate about, so what I'm really looking for is investing more in the people than in the idea, because startups can always pivot, and you look at some of the greatest companies out there, they were pivots from, you know, a slightly different model and they realized that, "Oh, we should go chase down this other thing." So, to me, I'm looking for people that are doing something exciting where they are already, looking to make the leap. You know, for example, like you know, the Spinnaker team or people that do something, you know, like... You know, like if etcd wanted to move off and be a separate company, like things like that where they've done something, they've proven it, and now they want to go start a company around it, and I think right off the bat, like if you've built some interesting technology that people are starting to use you have a decent revenue stream just from support, you know, of that and helping those end users, and I think, you know, with O'Reilly we do something a little different than other people. Like I focus mostly on seed investment, very early stage. Our typical check size is around $500k, and I actually allow people to take us off the cap table and just pay us back. Like you know, I've done nine startups in my career, and it's... Fundraising is one of those things where you only get good at it once you don't need it anymore, (chuckles) and I felt the pain of being on that side of the desk and I want to be in the position where, you know, we can write the checks and not try to, like, have a lot of governance, not try to take a board seat, not give you down pressure, you know, on what you're doing but really be additive. I think moving forward I would love to be in the position where we can help incubate, you know, a lot of companies because we've found that, you know, you all kind of go through, every company goes through the same process like, "Now, we need a real CFO because "we need financial projections." Like, being able to, like, provide those services for portfolio companies where they don't have to go spend their resources chasing that down. >> I'm curious how much some of the big players, or just the gravity of what's happening in the space that you're looking at, so obviously we're here at the Microsoft show, but Google, Amazon, a lot of activity going on and we can call it AI or what you will, VMware even, Oracle, SalesForce, how much of the big players defining and you have to build around them, versus you know, we look at Kubernetes is supposed to make things independent, to be able to be opensource and be able to build solutions, you know, regardless of what platform they're on. >> Yeah, I mean, I think we're living in a world where people have a lot of choice, you know, and we look at even, like we take the example of cloud providers. Like, as long as I don't get vendor lock in and use, you know, their specific features, like I can move around to different cloud providers, I can now say I want to negotiate a better price here and migrate over, and I think just with any of the technologies, like trying to work in ways where companies can work together and be additive, I think that's where we actually move, you know, move down the field. I don't know what analogy's appropriate to use, but you know, I feel like there's a lot of really interesting stuff that we should be doing, and making... Every company doing a slightly different version of the same thing I don't think, you know, makes sense. Like, you know, even silly things like as we mature. Like, you know, back in the day everyone used to have broadcast television. We built all these antennas, we got all this range, you know, and then we moved to digital and we didn't need those antennas, we didn't need that range, so they started decommissioning them, but then companies came along and they're like, "Well, wait, now we have this "unlicensed spectrum we can use." So, now they're using it for internet. You know, you can get 20 megabit connectivity out to a rural farm where now they can put some cheap IoT sensors, and like, do really meaningful things with low cost technologies, like those are the things I'm interesting in. You know, so kids that want to cobble together, you know, IoT sensors and come up with a way to use, you know, what they have in rural areas, and like, and have technology actually help people in a meaningful way, and I think those are a lot of very viable startups, you know, in that space. I do think we live in a world where every company's going to end up graduating into one of the camps, be it, you know, SalesForce, Google, you know, Microsoft, but in that innovation spike, like when they're first starting improving out the companies I think they have a ton of choice, you know. >> You described a very beneficent approach to how you think about VC. Do you think, how would you describe the VC landscape right now? You said you want to be able to just incubate great ideas and help these young companies when they are not good at fundraising and they don't have the smooth, slick deck that will really impress the bigger VC firms. I mean, how, what's wrong with the VC landscape today and what else are you doing to make it better? >> Well, I think the incentives are a little off. You know, I can speak for myself, like when I was... You know, when I was looking to raise VC money and my previous companies, like you know, you get these great offers from people, but then you talk to other entrepreneurs and you're like, you know, I'm not going to call anyone out by name, but you're like, "Well, how is this VC's firm served you," and you start hearing of ways that it was additive, but also kind of put undue pressure on them, or they say things like, "Well, we really didn't "need to raise that round then. "We could've done bridge financing "or we could've figured out how to get a MVP product "out there and brought in some revenue." So, I just think it's the ultrahigh returns that VCs are looking for, and the promises that those VCs are making to their LPs, (chuckles) you know, in their funds to outperform everyone else, and you know, everyone talks to everyone, right? So, if anything's meaningful out there looking for investment kind of the back channel is very vibrant and it's dog-eat-dog, and some of it, I kind of reckon it to, you know, your alma mater, like where you went to school. Like, you know, if you're an MIT person, like MIT's the best place in the world. You know, if you're, you know, some other school, they're the best place in the world, and the VCs tend to kind of, like, fall in those camps, and what I'm looking to do-- >> And those are real biases that impact women and underrepresented minorities, to their detriment. >> Yeah, and you know, and that's the thing I've struggled with, too, when you look at the... Like, let's take Andreessen, you know, for example and you look at the portfolio companies, like you know, you kind of become locked into that ecosystem. Like if you want to go, you know, if I'm on Mesosphere and I want to go partner with someone that's not under that, or they have a company in that portfolio that does similar things, you're going to be pressured into working with the portfolio company over going off and maybe choosing the better, you know, choice for the industry, so I'd like to see, you know, those things change. >> Right, and so, Patrick, we talked a little bit about Ziften, security endpoint, you know, really hot space. I want to give the opportunity, other companies you have here that we should check out. >> Yeah, so we work closely with the team at Turbonomic. I think, you know, what they've done over time, you know, is amazing. I love products where you can just bolt it in and within a short period of time you're getting value. Like, you know, stepping back and just saying one thing about Ziften, like I think it's amazing, because I come from a software development, you know, background, and one thing as a software developer I've always found fascinating is like when you come in wearing the developer hat they give you the keys to the kingdom. They're like, "Oh, here's root access to the servers, "here's where all of our data is, "here's how you do a snapshot of production "to, you know, test it, you know, in staging," and I've always thought that it was a tremendous amount of risk, and you know, on average a company can be hacked for up to 100 days before they even realize that they've had a breach, and like, any kind of company, you know, be it Ziften or anyone in that space, that can showcase that to you. Like, you know, raise up things that you weren't aware of, you know, is really interesting, and then, you know, to the, like, Nico and Turbonomics and the things that they're doing there. Like, to actually get the most out of what you already have, like that's huge to me, because one of the, you know, one of the things I see in cloud computing that we didn't necessarily have, you know, directly owned physical infrastructure is it's almost too easy to spin things up. You know, you've got the guy clicking through the UIs like, "Oh, this instance looks great. "Oh, and it says it's only be $140 this month," and then they end up spinning up 1,000 of those, you know? (laughs) You get that first sticker shock of, like, here's that $250,000 bill that month, (chuckles) you know, for cloud, and companies like Turbonomics can, like, avoid you, you know, making those mistakes. >> Great, Patrick, thank you so much for coming on theCUBE. It was really fun talking. >> Yeah. >> We could talk to you for hours. >> Thanks for having me, I appreciate it. >> I'm Rebecca Knight for Stu Miniman. We will have more from theCUBE's live coverage of Microsoft Ignite coming up in just a little bit. (techy music)

(techy music) >> Hi, everybody, welcome to this special Cube conversation, my name is Dave Vellante. I'm very excited to be here in our Palo Alto studios in the heart of Silicon Valley, the innovation hub of technology. In 2015 we introduced a company to your community called Datrium and one of the co-founders, Brian Biles at the time, came on as one of our segments and shared with us a little bit about what they were doing. Well, several years on, three years on, this company Datrium is exploding and we're really excited to have Brian Biles back, who's the co-founder and chief product officer at Datrium and he's joined by Sazzala Reddy, who's the CTO and another co-founder. One of the, two of the five co-founders here, so gentlemen, great to see you again, thanks for coming on. >> Good to see you, Dave. >> Yeah, so Brian, I remember that interview and I remember, you know, trying to get out of you what that secret sauce was, exactly what you were doing. There were a lot of other start ups, you know, at that time and several have gone by the wayside. You guys are exploding, so I want to help people understand why you're being so successful. Now, I want to start with the two co-founders. Why did you and your other co-founders start the company? >> You know, we started the company... We hired our first people in 2013, and at that time, there were really two separate worlds. There was a cloud world and there was an on-prem world that was sort of dominated by VMware. So, there were these two evolving discussions about how each one was going to grow in it's own way but kind of within its sphere. We thought there was an opportunity to bridge the two, and to do that, you know, ultimately it becomes a questions of how to run sort of coordinating applications on public clouds and deal with data on public clouds but also to have a capable version of the same infrastructure on private clouds. So, our sort of job one was to build up, to sort of import cloud technology onto prem. We currently have, if you want an Amazon-like version of infrastructure on-prem, we're still the best place to go because we have a two layer model, where there's, you know, compute with fast flash, talking to a separate durability layer very much like EC to an S3. You want to do that, we're still the way to go. But the long term story is also developing. We have a footprint on cloud with a backup store on S3 that coordinates all our data services for global deduping security and so on in a very cost effective, simple SAS way, and that part is growing significantly over the next couple of years. So we're, you know, through with sort of phase one. It'll keep, you know, evolving but phase two is really just getting going. >> So Sazzala, as the chief technologist you had to think about the architecture of where the industry was going and the architecture that would fit that. And you know, that people talk about future proofing so if you think back to the original sort of founding premise, what were some of the challenges that you were trying to solve? >> Right, so there's a business use cases and then there's technology use cases. And as a CTO you have to think of both of them, not just technologies, so if you look at technology point of view, you know, in 2000, back in 2000, Google published a paper called Map Reduce that said hey, this is all we can do at large scale. It was the beginning of how to build large scale distributed systems. But it was built for one use case for surge. But if you look at, we started in a time when Google was already there and they built a system for multiple, unpredictable use cases. So you think differently how the problem is whereas Google start from, though. Some of the CI vendors, they've done good things. They kind of evolved in that direction. We have evolved in a new direction. To the technology point of view, that's kind of what we thought about. But from a business perspective, what do people want? You know, if you look at the next generation, the millennials, and look beyond that they're used to iPhone experience. They don't want, if you tell them about LUNs, they don't re-phone LUNs, they're going to just say what is this and why do you have this stuff, right? So you have to evolve away from that. So, it's the CIA wants to think about how do I make my idea the service? How do I consume, you know, how do I make it a consumption model, how do I make my IT not a cost center but a friendly way to you know, grow my business? And the developers want a platform they can develop things faster, they can adapt to newer, kind of newer technologies coming in, there's Mesos, there's Docker container, there's Kubernetes, thus things change rapidly. So that's going to build a framework in how we wanted to start the company. Basically build a cloud-like experience simple as a SAS, simple as a click and then just make that work. >> The thing that's interesting to me about Datrium is you know, the simplicity, like open. You know, I remember when Unix was considered open and then obviously the definition changes, simplicity has changed. I remember when converged infrastructure, bolting together, compute storage and networking, simplified things. Hyperconverge took that to another level. You guys are going beyond that taking it to yet another level of simplicity, so I wonder if you could talk about that-- >> Yeah, so-- Specifically in terms of the problems that you're solving today for customers. >> So if you look at the V block, I guess the VCE was the first, I guess that they made a successful convergence. So they did hardware convergence-- >> Right. which is a useful thing to do. Same thing with your head CI, the traditional vendors, they do hardware convergence, if you look at Hecht, probably stands for hardware convergence, maybe. But we took a little bigger step in the sense that what you really want us to think about is data convergence. Not, hyperconvergence is useful, but you also think operating about data convergence. What's the point of building your on-prem cloud- like experience when you still have to do backups and some other you know, some other boxes you are to buy. That's not a really good experience, but you need is this whole new hardware convergence, we also need data convergence to get that experience of like cloud-like simplicity in your on-prem. >> Right, in the cloud you don't think of backing it up, right, it's self protecting. That's just the nature of how you should be thinking about on-prem as well. So, when we imported that technology to be a two-layer approach, we built that stuff in so you don't have to think about it. It's kind of like there's no SQL or we're sort of like no backup. >> Yeah, we're going to talk some more about that but that's an important point is you get backup and data protection, you know, full capability, it's just there. I always use the example of Netflix or Spotify. I don't have to call up a salesperson or the billing department or the customer service department, it's just there and I deal with it. >> Right and it gives you, you know, this combination of, in the two layers, the ability to run multiple workloads at big scale, which is otherwise hard in some of these more historical approaches, with great performance that you know is off the charts. But it also means you don't have to move data around as much. So you restore, you restart, you don't restore. You don't copy stuff in and out. >> Yeah. >> That data mobility efficiency it turns out, is also super critical when you think about multi-cloud behavior. >> You have to be in the business to actually feel like you talk to backup admins and life is hell. It is really painful and it's also very fearful if you have a problem, you have to restore and everybody's watching you when you're restoring. So we try to eliminate all those problems, right? Make it, just, why worry about all these things? We are living in a new world, let's adapt to it. >> I think I've, tongue-in-cheek I think about the show Silicon Valley and you guys didn't start out to build a box. >> No. >> No. >> You settled this off some problems and so what you have is a set of best of breed storage services that are running the cloud, called multi-cloud, meaning on-prem or in the cloud so I want to try to juxtapose that to sort of the traditional storage model or even some of these emerging storage models of some of the very successful companies. So, how do you guys differentiate, help us understand what's different about Datrium from the classical storage model and even some of these emerging storage models? >> I'll kick it off and Sazzala can expand on it. You know, first we're bringing a cloud experience to on-prem, so it's not a storage system that you, like a SAN. We, you know, offer compute as well and a way to make that whole operation simple around you know, standard and emerging standard coordination frameworks like VMware and Red Hat and Docker. It includes these really powerful data services to make life simple so you don't have to add on a lot of different control panes and spots of data storage and so on. By getting that right, it makes multi-cloud coordination a lot easier because the hardest problem getting started in that, aside from, you know, just doing SAS applications to run it and so on, is getting data back and forth. Making it efficient and cost effective to move it. So, you want to expand? >> Yeah, so you know, I think you give examples of like maybe there are some successful companies in the market today. There is old school array market and there's the new school head CI markets. So, the old school array market, I mean, if some people are still comfortable with that model, I think they just because the flash array market has some performance characteristics but still it's, again, going back to that rotary phone landing, it doesn't map your, the lands don't map your business. It's just a very old school way of thinking about it. Those will probably vanish at some point because it makes no sense to have them around. And yes, they do provide higher performance but they're still, you know, it's still not providing you that level of ideal service. From a developer point of view, I can make my application life easier, I can do things like test and dev. Test and dev, simple thing like test and dev requires you to clone your application so they can run test and dev on them. It's a very powerful use case, it's a very common use case for most companies, including ours. So, you can't do any of that stuff with that old school style of array. And the new school style, they are making progress in terms of making that developer life a little bit more easier but they haven't thought deeply about data services. Like they built a nice packaging and like some UI frameworks but ultimately, data needs to be like stable. They didn't, you think about data in a how do you make it compressed, efficient and cost effective and make it so that it is easy to move data around. And you're think about the backup and DR. Because if we look at application, you've run it, you have to back it up and you have to do archiving for it. You have to think up the entire lifecycle of it. Which is kind of what most people are not doing, thinking of the entire lifecycle. They're solving a small piece of the puzzle but not the entire thing. >> I'll give you another example of that. In you know, to the operator of a private cloud, you're thinking about workloads, you're thinking about relationships between VMs you know, how to get them to the right place, copy them at the right rate, secure them in the right way. In a sort of old style, that kind of thinking about say protection, you might have a catalog in a backup software but you have volumes of VMs in a SAN. Those are completely different mindsets, we've merged them. So we have a completely scalable catalog you know and detailed validation, verification information about every scrap of data on the system that we can test everything four times a day for test restores. All that kind of stuff is organically in a single user interface that's VM focused, so you don't have to think about these different mindsets. >> But it's SAS really for data services. >> For data services, yeah. >> I mean is that a fair way to think about this? >> Yeah, I think so because what's better than one click? Zero clicks, so lot of people are aiming for one click. We are aiming for zero clicks. That's actually a harder problem to do. It's actually hard to actually think about how do I automate everything so they have to do nothing? That's kind of where we have really, really tried hard is that, as little clicks as possible. Aim for zero as much as possible. That's our goal, in the internal company engineers are told you must aim for zero clicks, actually a harder problem. >> Right so, when you think about how to then expand that to managing multiple sort of availability zones across multiple clouds there are additional problems. But starting from these capabilities, starting from great indexing of data, great cataloging of relationships between things, everything's workload specific and great data mobility infrastructure with data reduction and encryption and so on. As we forecast where we can go with that, it's profound. You can start to imagine some context for how to deal with information across clouds and how to both run and protect it in a way that's really just never been in the market. >> So I want to talk about that vision but before we do, before we leave sort of the differences let's take two examples. Two very successful companies, Nutanix and Pure, so how are you different from, let's start with Nutanix, for example. >> I think that there's some good things, I think they're moved the industry forward quite a bit. I think they've brought some new ideas to the market, they made it VM-centric, they said no LUNs. They've made quite some improvements, and then they're a successful company, but ultimately I think their focus tends to be mostly on how to make the UI shiny and how to kind of think about the hypervisor, which is kind of where they're going to. They don't hypervise in the world today, we don't want to go invent another hypervisor. >> Mm-hmm. >> There are so many other options and the world is changing a lot. Like you said, Kubernetes is coming, Mesos is coming, so we want to adapt to those newer ways or style of doing it, and we don't want to invest in making or building a new hypervisor, and we're good partners with VMware, so that's one angle to it. If you look at, you know, how... Because if you're going to go to large enterprises, they want to consolidate the workloads. They want large scale, they want exabyte scale, so you meet customers now who have exabyte scale data, they think they're the cloud. They're not thinking of any other cloud, they think they're the cloud, so how do you make them successful? So, you have to think about exabyte scale systems where basically you can operate it as a cloud internally, so we build those kinds of infrastructures and those kinds of tools to make that exabyte scale successful, and we probably are the fastest system on the planet. Right, so that's kind of where we come from is that we not only say that we scale, we actually prove that we scale. It's not just enough to say we have Google style and the scale, so it's actually you have to prove it, so we actually have tests where we can, we actually have run with other people that it actually works as we say it does. So, I think it's important that you have to speak, you have to not only produce a product which is useful from a UI point of view, that's useful, but also it has to actually work at scale, and we make it more resilient. We have a lot of features built in to make it more resilient and at scale, like what does a tier one mean, what is mission critical apps, how do you make sure that we don't lose data, for example. It runs at the highest performance possible at a price which is reasonable. >> Okay, and I guess the other difference is you're a pure SAS model in that you're responsible for (chuckles) the data services, right, and-- >> Yeah, that's right. >> Yeah, we've pulled a lot more into the data services in our cloud approach. >> Mm-hmm. >> And we've separated from the performance elements, so they're these two layers, so it's both self-protecting in a way that's independently provisioned if you want to expand capacity for backup retention, that's a standard thing. If you want to expand performance or workloads you do that independently on stateless hosts. >> Mm-hmm. >> An example of where this pays off is just the resilience of the system. In a standard hyperconverged model a good case is like what's the crater size when a, or the risk, you know, profile when a single component fails. So, if a motherboard fails in a sort of hyperconverged model that's standard, you know, a single layer thing, then all the data on that system has to be rebuilt. That puts enormous pressure on the network, and you know, some of these systems can have 80, 160 terabytes of data on a single node, that's like a crazy week, and if two of them go down then the whole thing stops. In our model the hosts are stateless, if any number of them go down for any reason the data's still safe, separate-- >> Mm-hmm, right. >> You know, in a hyperconverged model you can't really integrate backup well because when primary goes down back up goes down, too, then what? >> Okay, so that's, I think, clear how you differentiate from hyperconverged. Did you have another-- >> Yeah, I have one more point, it's about the data services you mentioned. We have, again, going back to zero-click, we built all our features into the system. For example, you know, there are a lot things like deduplication, compression, image recording, those are like, I mean, they're not like details, but ultimately they do bring the cost down quite a bit, like by 10 X to five X, right, that's a big difference. >> So, those are services that are inherent. >> That are inherent in the system. >> Yeah, okay. >> Either you can have check boxes, you can say one click and have to like check box, all that. I mean, you have to go and click it, but to click it then you must read a manual, you must do the manual, so then what is this right click and what happens to me, why isn't not on by default. >> Yeah. >> So, those are the problems, I think the differences between them, I think Nutanix and us, is that we kind of made it all, like, be seamless and all built in. >> Yeah, and when we, you know, if you have to, if it's an option that you ask for later that means it probably has some impact on the system that you have to decide about. In our case you can't turn it off, it's always there and we do all our benchmarking with all that stuff turned on, including software-based encryption. It's just a standard thing, and we still are like the fastest thing on the planet. >> Yeah. >> And let's talk about Pure a little bit, because they don't have-- >> Yeah. >> The networking component and then the compute component, it's, you know, flash array, so how would you position relative to Pure? >> Okay, so again, going back to that SAN array was built before the internet, it is just the same. It is just the same, it's just to deport SSDs behind those controllers in central hard drives. It is likely faster, but ultimately the bottleneck is those controllers, those two controllers they have, that's what it is. No matter how many, how awesome your... You put envy in drive, it doesn't matter. It's going to be as much as speed as your network pipe is going to be, and as much faster as your controllers are going to be. Ultimately, the latency, you cannot, like, basically it's over the wire. It will always be slower than what kind of having... >> So, the big thing here is-- >> Yeah, and it's not a private cloud. You know, that kind of model is for someone who's assembling a lot of parts to create a cloud. >> Yep. >> You know, we're integrating these parts, so it's a much simpler deployment of a cloud experience and you're not integrating all these double parts. >> I'm getting a cloud, I'm buying a cloud experience from you guys with the sets of services, let's talk about those services. So, mobility, discovery, analytics. >> Yeah. >> Governance, talked about the... >> Encryption, yeah. >> The other data reduction services, encryption... >> Right, the cataloging and indexing of the data so you can, you know, restart from old data. >> And I can run this on any cloud, including my on-prem cloud, correct? >> Well, that's the direction, we have some parts now and you know, you... (laughs) Sorry, Sazzala can talk about where we're going. >> So, architecturally it's designed to run on... >> Yeah, because I think fundamentally we chose that design philosophy that it has to be two-layer, right, that's a fundamental decision we made long ago, and it's a detail but it's a fundamental decision we made long ago that because if you go to Amazon it is two-layer. You cannot make one-layer work there. Like, you know, compute and storage has to be split to through that part, but they must work together in a nice way, and also S3's very weird. I don't know if you know about S3. S3's very weird behavior, it does not like random writes, it has to be all sequential writes, and that also happens to be how we built it. The way our system works is that we only do sequential writes to any device. It works beautifully in S3 with EC2, so just to step back a little bit, taking big picture, like so, we wanted a cloud-like experience for your on-prem, right. That's kind of what we built, we built a Datrium cloud on-prem, and then we, as of beginning of this year, we started offering services, multi-cloud services and started with Amazon first. The first service we enabled was backup and archiving, that's our first service. A lot of people like it and you have some stats from that, like from last quarter, like how people like it, because people like it because you don't have to have another on-prem infrastructure. You can just consume it as a SAS model, it's very convenient and it's as easy as an iPhone backup. I don't know if you use iPhone backup, it's like a click. >> Yeah. >> Okay, unfortunately it's a click. We have tried to avoid the clicks, but we can't really avoid it all the way, so you have to click it so that you can then start doing backups into the cloud and then can retrieve them in a very simple single pane of glass. It's very cost-effective because we do dedupe on the cloud and we dedupe over the wire, but dedupe over the wire, by the way, it's actually a very unique feature. Not many companies have it, like Nutanix and Pure you mentioned, they don't have it, so you know, so that's one of the things where I think we differentiate because data has gravity, right, so to move it somewhere you need an antigravity device. So, you need something to actually move this data faster, how to defeat speed of light. You have a pipe, you have a VAN network, so how do you defeat the speed of light, so what we have built is a feature, it's called Global Dedupe, is that you can move data in a much more efficient way across the cloud. So, now you may question, "Hey, I'm moving my data "from here to another place," obviously we have these cloud services... The question you may ask is, "Okay, how do "I know I get guaranteed security? "How do I know that it's going to be correct, "that I moved all these places," right? So, we do multiple things, one is that we have built in encryption. It's going to be globally encrypted, it's like an encryption across the whole thing, we call it blanket encryption. >> Mm-hmm. >> The other one is that we have blockchain-like features that are built into the systems so that if you move an object, like an app or whatever, you're going to move from one place to the other, it's built in kind of blockchain features where you cannot move something to another place and get it wrong. It's fundamentally going to be correct for you, so those are the kind of things we thought about, like never to worry about it again. It's going to guarantee the data's correct and it's moved in the most efficient way, so that's our first landing thing we've done is that we wanted to build an experience which is like on-prem cloud, I mean, onto also the cloud. Right, what other experience people are... People like simplicity, people want the SAS-like experience. They don't want to manage it, they don't want to think about it. They just consume the services, so the first service we have in Amazon is what we chose, is backup and DR. The next thing we are going to be shipping soon, announcing soon, and we'll have a demo in the VM World is something we call Cloud Shift. It's an app mobility orchestration framework where you can just click and move your workload to somewhere else, to Amazon, and you can run, so it's not just a backup thing, it'll also become you can run your workloads in Amazon and get a consistent experience from your on-prem and the cloud. So, one of the challenges is that if you move to another place, is it different tool sets, I have to change my whole lifestyle, no. >> Mm-hmm. >> We want to provide that seamless operational consistency that-- >> That's the key, right. >> That's the key. >> Whether it's on-prem or it's in the cloud it operates the same way. I'm accessing those sets of data services and-- >> Yeah. >> I don't really care where it is, is that-- >> That's right. >> The vision? >> Yeah, that's right. >> Exactly. >> That's right, so if it turns out that there's a cost advantage in moving from, you know, A to B, we make it super easy and the control panel from our standpoint is consistent, and it's... So, all of our control orientation moving forward will literally be SAS. It'll be running on a cloud even if you're managing on-prem stuff, because that way, assuming you're multi-cloud, you need a control plane to be dealing with the cloud stuff anyway, and it just sort of neutralizes the experience so that in a multi-cloud way it's always consistent, it's always simple, and the nice thing about sort of true SAS is you don't have to upgrade software parts. We do that for you in the background. >> Mm-hmm. >> So, it's just always up to date. >> So, I was saying before, Datrium takes care of everything. >> Yeah. >> And it's the true cloud experience. >> Just consume it. >> Right. >> Okay, I want to talk about, end on the two other areas: the operational impact and the developer impact. So, when you think of operations, we've talked about LUNs before. I've always said if you're in the business of managing LUNs you really want to think about, you know, updating your skill sets (chuckles) because that capability is not really going to be viewed as valuable. It isn't today and certainly in the future, so the operational impact, the degrees of automation that IT operations are driving is going through the roof. Cloud-like, we've talked about that, and the other is developer productivity. People are using containers, you know, Kubernetes... >> Yeah. >> And new styles of writing software-- >> Yeah. >> As everybody becomes a software company. So, can you talk about those two aspects? >> And ultimately there's going to be serverless. >> Right. >> Right. >> As we think about if you take a leap, in another 10 years I think serverless will probably be one of the important ways, because why do you even care how it runs. You just write some software and like, you know, we can run it. It should be that way, but I think we're not there completely yet, I think, so we want to adopt a methodology where we provide the framework where we don't dictate what apps, how we write your apps. That's, I think, very powerful because that's actually evolving faster as we move forward, because serverless is a new app framework. >> Mm-hmm. >> You cannot anticipate this, right, you cannot anticipate on building everything but what you can anticipate is services we can provide for the developers, which is, you know, no matter... Because it's the granularity of it. We can map their application granularity into our system, we have that fine level granularity, so that kind of was what you want to provide as a primitive. LUNs don't have that primitive, right, so we provide that level of primitive that whatever apps you have will have that level of primitives to global data services for you, and once you have the data services like that we'll guarantee that it's highest performance, which is what app developers want. Like, I get the highest performance, I can easily... And then we will also provide a way to clone those things easily, those apps, because sometimes you're at an app, you want to test it, too. Like a hundred times, you want to just... If you can copy all the data a hundred times or you can just, say, you know what, clone this thing a hundred times in a millisecond and run my tests fast and then okay, I'm done with my test, it looks good, I'll deploy it. >> Mm-hmm. >> That's kind of what developers really want is that they are able to run, write faster, develop faster, because tests on dev cycles are important. A lot of people think that hey, I can put my test on dev in some old box over there, but that's really bad because from business perspective testing does, engineering's expensive. Their test cycles have to be fast so that they can e-trade faster and kind of produce faster. The harder you make it to test your system, this is like, this is what happens in our company today. The harder it is to test your logic and your code, the longer it takes to, like, do e-trade. >> In some ways test and dev is becoming more strategic than the production system, I mean, really-- >> Well, it-- >> (chuckles) Because of speed. >> Yeah, I mean, it can take immediate advantage of some of these improvements in, you know, stacks. Like if, you know, if Kubernetes is better just, you know, go quickly to it. The things that these new stacks assume, though, is that it's, you know, a server-based data, so on-site you can accelerate mobility significantly by, you know, when people ask to copy things from here to there, clone it, you know, start another instance, we can help them do that by just, you know, faking it out with metadata-- >> Mm-hmm. >> And deduplication, and so we tried this with Jenkins just in our own development, moved to that model and you know, everything was suddenly twice as fast in development. To do a build all of a sudden you didn't have to copy data here to there. You were cloning, you know, with metadata. The way to do it across clouds is, again, kind of dedupe focused. If you have to actually move the data it takes a long time and it's expensive, especially for egress costs. If you can just, you know, validate which elements of the data are new versus old on either site you can move a lot less. >> Hmm... >> It might be, you know, six times less, and then the costs go down, the speed goes up, you defeat data gravity. >> Yeah, so-- >> Excellent, all right, we have to leave it there. >> Okay. >> Out of time, thanks so much, you guys, for helping us better understand, you know, Datrium. Congratulations on your success so far and all the great innovations that you've achieved. >> Okay, thank you. >> Okay, thanks for watching, everybody, this special CUBE conversation. This is Dave Vellante, see you next time. (techy music)

>> Live from San Francisco. It's theCUBE covering DockerCon '18. Brought to you by Docker and it's ecosystem partners. >> Welcome back to theCUBE's coverage of DockerCon 2018. I'm Lisa Martin, in San Francisco, with John Troyer and we're excited to welcome to theCUBE for the first time, Ed Hsu, the V.P. of Product and Product Marketing at Mesosphere. Great to have you on, Ed. >> Thank you. Pleasure to be here. >> So, Mesosphere. Tell us about you guys, what do you do? Why are you at DockerCon? >> Yeah. So, Mesosphere is a hybrid cloud software platform. We basically enable you to very easily adopt all types of new cloud-native technologies like Docker, Kubernetes, Spark, all the things that you think about to build these world changing applications. We automate that for you to run on hybrid cloud infrastructures. >> Nice. So, maybe you could break it down a little bit more. I know people can sometimes get confused. Mesosphere the company, Mesosphere the project, DC/OS the product, and then Kubernetes, and we're here at DockerCon, so maybe untangle some of those things a little bit. >> Sure. Maybe I'll go in chronological order. So Apache Mesos was actually created way back, I think around 2010 as a project to figure out if you had to rebuild Google's proprietary architecture for hyper-scale computing, what might that look like? So that became this project called Apache Mesos. Later on, at companies like Twitter, Airbnb, it started being used to solve some real challenges around scale-ability and performance. Arguably, without Mesos as a technology, I don't think Twitter would probably exist today because Twitter used to crash a lot. You guys remember that. You got the fail whale picture and all that stuff. Apparently, Justin Bieber used to crash Twitter, right? And Mesos became part of the solution. Now, you fast forward a few years later, containerization really caught on, right? And then Docker became a game changer in terms of making sure people start using and adopting container technologies, really popularize containerization, and of course, Kubernetes later came along as a way to orchestrate the operations of these containers. Now, where Mesosphere fits in is our platform is actually below a container-orchestrator, right so, Kubernetes is actually the fifth container-orchestrator to run on Mesos. There's earlier ones like Netflix, I think Twitter themselves. There's different types of container orchestration tools, and Kubernetes became the most recent and frankly most popular container-orchestration tool, and Mesosphere enables customers to really get one turn-key installation and operations of that technology. >> You mentioned Netflix, and I'm thinking, it powers a lot of our lives. But thinking about IoT data-driven applications like that, how does Mesosphere help power IoT and those data-driven applications? >> So, any IoT application probably needs at least three major sets of capabilities. The first is, you have to ingest tons of data. If you're a connected car or a home appliance company, there's a lot of data coming in from all these internet-connected devices. You need a way to ingest all that data without losing any of it and making sure you can be responsible. You also want to be able to analyze that data. So tools like Spark and other things become very important. You also need to be able to host an application or service, and Kubernetes becoming the most popular way to serve these applications. The last and by far, I think, most important piece for hybrid-cloud or for, excuse me, for IoT use cases, is the concept of hybrid-cloud and edge computing. At Mesosphere, we have many connected car companies that are doing connected car or self-driving car projects are actually working with us. And the reason for this is, we provide consistency for running containers like with Kubernetes or data services like Spark and Kafka on a really elastic infrastructure that can be on a data center, on AWS, on Google, or beneath a cell tower or even a cruise ship. Those are all actual use cases. We provide a consistent operating model for operators to just install and run all of this stuff. >> Super nice. I love in 2018 we're past some of the press conversation around who's gonna win or there's only gonna be one way of doing one stack that's gonna win, and Kubernetes versus whatever, and that was a conversation a few years ago. What I love about 2018 is people are in production. And live and time-to-value are very quick and very powerful and very deep and enlightens big data apps. Huge footprint apps as well. So, can you talk a little bit about some of your customers and also, in terms of the hybrid cloud. Are we seeing, are people on Pram? Are you seeing a lot of multi-cloud uses? Do apps span on Pram and clouds? What are some of the use cases and patterns that you see? >> Yeah. So, I think, maybe I'll start with the one I find is most interesting which is Royal Caribbean. If I were to ask you what is the largest computing cluster in the world by geography, you probably wouldn't say Royal Caribbean. So I haven't been on a cruise in a while, but apparently... I remember back in the day when I was a child, when I went on a cruise, you get a daily print-out of today's activities, and if you wanna go upgrade to a meal plan or do a tour or scuba diving, you go line up somewhere, and then you register for it, and if there's enough inventory, you get to do it. And so Royal Caribbean is actually trying to move all of this into a mobile app experience where based on your preferences, based on your history, based on what's available, they'll push certain campaigns to get you to "John, you really gotta try this scuba diving because we've got excess inventory, and we know you have a history of wanting to do surfing excursion" and so forth. So what Royal Caribbean has done is create an infrastructure where they're doing Test and Dev on campaigns and things like that on AWS. They actually do a lot of analytics on Pram in their own data center, and then when a ship is out at sea, serving those mobile applications from on Pram cloud-computing environment. All of this on Mesosphere's DC/OS. And what this means is that the data for interacting with passengers and the campaigns that are available, the management of the inventory, all that data, when the ship is in dock, flies from a data center, through a satellite, through Kafka into the ship. When the ship goes out to sea, all the internet connection is used for, people Skyping with grandma and grandpa and all that stuff, so the ship can actually, from an edge computing standpoint, provide all the resources it needs for these personalized interaction commission. >> That's a big example, Royal Caribbean. It was a very interesting use case, and I know you mentioned Netflix, Verizon. I think I saw a Verizon customer video on your website. When you're talking with companies of either those sizes or Royal Caribbean that's been around for a long time versus a cloud-native like Netflix, what are some of the common data center modernization concerns that you're hearing consistently across company sizes and maybe even consistently across industries? >> Sure. I think that's a great point. I think some of the early, early adopters, like Netflix, Twitter, they have their own way of building out their hyper-scale infrastructures. And so we work very closely with them to address their needs. What we're starting to see as the technology becomes mainstream... There are a lot of common challenges that these mainstream enterprises are either not experienced with, not staffed for, or just don't have the budget to blow a lot on these types of projects. And so, what becomes a key concern is a lot of companies today recognize containerization is interesting, it's important. It has the potential to deliver cost savings, and they recognize they have to move to a Dev/Ops model to deliver code very quickly. But then they also realize that we're starting to live in an always connected economy where you can't just sell a product and not expect to hear from the customer until they have a problem with it. You wanna interact with them, you wanna use that data to help improve the experience for the customer. How do you manage all this information? So the whole concept of data engineering, data operations, and data science becomes really a key factor for many enterprises. And for a lot of them, they just don't have the resources to really address it. Now, there are many different companies that provide individual point solutions for those technologies, but how do you bring it all together in a multi-tenet way, right? How do you make sure if you have one team that's using one version of Spark and another team using a different version of Spark that they can actually share infrastructure? And that's where Mesosphere's uniqueness has really come front and center. We basically pull these data services the way VMware pulled the traditional model basic applications. So the cost saving you saw from server consolidation, we're doing from cluster consolidation and dramatically reducing costs while automating operations at the same time. >> I'd like to follow up on that a little bit. I think ever since the launch of DC/OS a few years back, big data was a differentiator for Mesosphere. And, again, another term that's been through it's own hype cycle, right? But it's real today. Can you maybe go a little deeper with the consolidation piece? How are Mesosphere admins interacting with data scientists or even on the container side and the infrastructure side, what do you have to do differently to make sure the memory footprints and all the various big data platforms are able to be supported? >> Yeah. So I think big data 1.0, let's call it, was really a batch operating model. Wait 'til the data comes in at the end of the quarter, make some recommendations on how the business can improve the next quarter. You guys have all seen reports. I think Gardner talked about one where 80% of due projects have failed. And the reason for this is that it was hard to justify the benefit right up front. The cost and the complexity of rolling out these projects was very prohibitive. Now, what Mesosphere brings is the ability to adopt many different types of these next generation data technologies. Spark, Cassandra distributed database, Kafka message queue, TensorFlow, Elasticsearch, these are all technologies that have become increasingly popular, but the challenge for most enterprises is it's hard to have a whole team just dedicated to learning Kafka and another one on Spark and another one on Cassandra. What if your competitors hire them away? And how do you run all these different technologies that are clustered systems that require a lot of infrastructure? They're not designed to run together and pull together efficiently. That's what Mesosphere really brings to these technologies. One is the ability to automate all these technologies, so instead of getting a whole team to figure out how to run stuff, it's literally one click installation, or a single command on the DC/OS command console. And then two being able to run all these different types of data services in a highly pulled way so that you don't have different clusters that are turning into snowflakes that cannot be reused by other teams. This gives you dramatic changes in how people operate. If you were a big data team at a major bank and somebody said "I wanna do transactions on your infrastructure," you would probably say "No, stay out of my infrastructure because I want to make sure I have the resources to do analytics," and the same would be true for the people who are actually doing the real-time transaction-processing with customers. What if I told you I can give you a way to do application-aware automations so that these services can be automated very easily? And two, these resources can share an infrastructure while maintaining resource guarantees. Now, all of a sudden, the individual functional leads or business unit leads would go "Okay, I'm okay with sharing resources with these other BU's, especially if it gives me the benefit over time of helping different BU's cross-pollinate information." >> A whole different way of interacting with big data, right? And actually making it useful. >> Maybe forcing collaboration. I wish we had more time, but we wanna thank you so much for stopping by theCUBE, telling us what's new at Mesosphere. Sounds like never a dull moment. >> Oh, absolutely. Thank you very much. >> We wanna thank you for watching theCUBE. I am Lisa Martin with John Troyer from DockerCon 2018. Stick around, John and I will be right back with our last guest. (techno music)

(techno music) >> Live from Orlando, Florida it's theCUBE, covering Cisco Live 2018, brought to you by Cisco, NetApp and theCUBE's ecosystem partner. >> Okay, welcome back everyone it's theCUBE live here in Orlando, Florida for Cisco Live 2018 I'm John Furrier with theCUBE, my cohost Stu Miniman. So our third day of three days of wall-to-wall coverage, the big story here is the transformation, the power of the network, it's becoming computable, it's a great, great story. Our next guest is Guru Chahal, who is the Vice President of Product, AVI Networks. Welcome back to theCUBE, great to see you. >> Thank you, John. Thanks for having me John and Stuart. It's a pleasure being here again. >> So we just talking before the camera came on about STO cause Stu wants to go there right away, but we've got to hold off on that, but service meshes is certainly going to be a great thing with Kubernetes and containers but the story here is the changing nature and power of the network. Suzzy, who you came on with DevNet, was talking about the success of DevNet has been a combination of great timing, of open-source, hitting the network but making the network programmable, opening up new innovations. This is a really big thing, I want to get your reaction to this because Europe tied into this trend big time. What does that mean for people that are watching this? They're trying to grok the new way. What is this intent-based network? What's this programmable network? Is it the iPhone, kind of moment where for networks, where new apps are coming that we've never seen before? Or is it something different? What's your take? >> That's such a great example John, so just a fundamental transformation that iPhone had on how we think about telephony in general, we're at that sort of moment in the network. And the reason for that, frankly, is how we deploy applications, how we design applications, and where we deploy applications has fundamentally changed. You know 20 years ago, you had one choice to deploy an application and it was that server, right over there, in your data center. And today you can do it as a container, or bare-metal server, a virtual machine, on-prem or one of hundreds of data centers, public cloud data centers all over the world. And then architecturally, everything is moving from these monoliths to microservices, or much more tiny and more manageable components, and what that does to the network is fundamentally different from what's been going on in the network for the past couple of decades. It elevates the position of the network from just connectivity, to something that is fundamental to how these services talk to each other unlike 100 things that live inside a box and talk to each other, now you have 100 things on the network talking to each other. So think about what that does to you from a availability strategy perspective, from a security strategy perspective, from a surface area of security, from a monitoring perspective, I mean the reason why you see, I mean walk the show floor here, so much innovation in the network and the reason for that is instead of an enterprise running 1000 applications, within the next few years each enterprise is going to be running 100,000 applications and their budget is not going up 100 times so you need innovation, you need automation and that's where the intent-based movement comes in. >> So new opportunities are going to be created, new wealth creation, more innovation. What are you guys doing? Take a minute to explain why you guys are here with your company? What are you contributing, what's your role in the ecosystem, what's your product differentiations? What's the story? >> Yeah, great, so we play in the application services space. If you think about the network traditionally people have thought about it as connectivity, which is layer two, layer three, and then network services are the services that the network offers to an application, that's load balancing, it's application security, SSL offload, it's web application firewall and so on. So services that are tied to the application that's basically what our company is about. So we have a fabric-based platform, software only, the fabric can be instantiated on bare-metal appliances, or containers, or virtual machines, all centrally managed, and it's intent-based which means it's policy-driven. So you go to a single place you say, "please I need load balancing capabilities "for this application, I need SSL "and I need to turn on my web application firewall." And no matter where the application is, in Azure, in AWS or on-prem, or a mainframe, the fabric is able to instantiate that service automatically infront without the operator having to worry about where is it, what do I need to do, do I have enough capacity, none of that. >> Guru, in Chuck Robbins' keynote on Monday you talked about kind of the old way, this kind of bespoke, it was silos, it was like, well, oh, you know we have the wiring guys over here doing the physical layer two, layer three, four through seven is over there. Today it's software, up and down the stack, you know, changes a lot, maybe talk a little bit about that dynamic as to how applications, you know intent-based networking really is having, the application doesn't just use, but it's heavily involved with the network. >> So here's the single biggest thing that's driving this change, applications used to be secondary for IT in some sense, certainly infrastructure teams, and infrastructure was primal. And I had my ADCs and load balancers here and my routers and my switches and so on, and this is my infrastructure, now let's figure out how to fit the application on my infrastructure. And that world is gone. That's the old way. You can't hug your load balancers anymore that's (laughs) if you do that today, those days are, if not gone, they're almost nearing an end. And increasingly the infrastructure is going to live for applications. The center world is my need as a business to role out an application quickly, to understand how people are interacting with that application, to make changes to it in real time, and all of infrastructure is now wrapping itself around that notion. So intent-based networking, in our case, intent-based application services is all about how can I, in an automated way, quickly deploy load balancing, application security for applications, no matter where they are, how can I monitor the applications in real time. That's really what the movement is about. >> Well, that's a great point. I'd like to just add and get your thoughts on this, and react to another concept, to add to that is that you've got all that happening, okay, that's because of the cloud and great new tech but then you factor in that the programming models are changing too, so the perfect storm is everything that you've said, but now the expectation of the developer-- >> API. >> With open source-- >> Everything is in API. >> Has to be programmable and it's like the classic, let infrastructure take care of it's business but no one's got to do all this manual work. This is a huge dynamic and I think the DevNet story this year at Cisco Live really puts an exclamation point on the fact that this has got traction. We kind of know, we see open-source but from the networking world it's a whole new, essentially greenfield opportunity. You agree with that? >> Totally, I mean you know there's in most of our largest customers, and by the way we didn't talk about our solar business side, but just to give you a quick flavor for what our customer base looks like we primarily sell to Global 2000, three of the top five banks in the US are our customers, two of the top five banks in ME are our customers, 20% of the Fortune 50 are our customers, we've replaced traditional load balancing solutions and so on. And the primary reason, the number one reason is automation. And by automation, everybody talks about automation, but by automation what our customers mean is infrastructure as API. Simple things. I want to capture all the packets going to that application and I want to do that with a single REST API, I want to talk to an IP endpoint and say here's the REST API, give me all the traffic. Can you do that in your network today? Our customers can. >> What's the alternative, if they don't use APIs? >> Oh yeah, so you've got two choices, one you walk into your data center, turn on the SPAN port take all that traffic, take it to some sort of a monitoring fabric blah, blah, blah, three days later if you're lucky you get traffic. Second approach, call AWS tell them to turn on the SPAN port, and good luck with that. (laughs) So, you know increasingly you frankly don't have much of a choice, you need infrastructure to be-- >> Scale is also a tsunami of data coming in so one time is a massive problem, that's never going to happen, so people are going to give up-- >> Number of events, number of alerts, you know it's speed. Talk about the top three trends that are going on in our customer base, speed, speed, and speed. >> Okay, you've got some great clients. Why are they going with you, and how does someone engage with you guys? What do they do? Do they just call you up and say bring in some software, do I get a box, is it software, how do I configure it, how do they onboard? How do you guys engage with your customers? >> Right, so why do they buy us? Three quick reasons, one amazing automation fabric-approach central management. Two, amazing analytics to your point about great events, we want to help our customers address this deluge of events and things that are happening in the data center and provide great insight, so that's all built in to the product. And three, much more cost effective. I mean these traditional solutions, believe it or not, that have been around for 20 years, they're not just traditional, as in legacy, they're also extremely expensive. Our competitors sell load balancers at 84% gross margins. You know how many of my customers run their businesses at 84% gross margins? Zero. So how can you afford that, right? So those are three big reasons why they buy. How they get engaged with us is they typically have a public cloud project, they'll say alright, like Adobe, "they'll say alright, we need to go to Azure, "move the applications right away." Well that's easy for the CIO to say, in practice, that's a beast, right. So they need to get in there, they need to figure out how am I going to meet application SLAs on Azure, how am I going to do application availability, or security, or monitor these, and they could do a Google search or something and get that connected with us. Two, we're a Cisco partner, Cisco resells us, and Cisco is everywhere. So when people approach their trusted vendor, like Cisco, and say, "Cisco, "I've got this public cloud issue, "a network monitorization issue "and load balancing is a consistent thorn "in my neck, like, what do we do?" And Cisco goes, "oh we've got a great partner, "we resell their technology, I'd love "to help you understand more, and then "they pull us in, and we close." >> Yeah, that's a great point Guru, one of the things we've been talking to a lot of customers, is how do I manage and deal with my network when I don't own a lot of the pieces of the network. And that's the story we've been hearing. Cisco talking about multi-cloud. Up on stage, Chuck Robbins brought Diane Greene out and talked a lot about Kubernetes and STO, we know AVI Networks, I've seen your team at theCUBE con show, John was just at the Copenhagen show, I unfortunately missed that one, I'll be back at the Seattle show. Talk about what your team is doing with Kubernetes and STO, and how does Cisco fit in to that discussion? >> Yes, we love that space it's actually, I think at this point, after public cloud after Azure and AWS in particular, and GCP as well. So after public cloud, is the fastest growing part of our business today and what we've been shipping for over two years now, is an enterprise-class service mesh targeted at, not just Kubernetes, but Kubernetes, OpenShift, Mesos or Consisto, and the beautiful thing is our fabric is just a fabric it can, the same fabric in one corner of the data center could be serving a traditional bare-metal application and another corner of our data center is serving a containerized, a Kubernetes application and what we do there is, we provide both North-South load balancing capabilities, as well as, the East-West load balancing capabilities for that entire cluster. And to give you a sense for scale, our largest customers, we've got large banks and technology companies running us in production with Kubernetes, at the other, at the highest end we've got customers running eight to ten clusters of somewhere between 50 to 100 nodes each. So we're talking about 500 to 1,000 nodes running in both public cloud and on-prem of Kubernetes where we are providing the distributed load balancing capabilities. >> Well that's great. So if you've been doing service mesh for two years, that's pre STO? How does that relate to the STO project? >> Yes, it is, and in sometimes it's still pre STO right, cause I love STO, on slides (laughs) but the era of STO is 2019 and maybe 2020. So it's going to take some time we love it because here's what happens today, this is the problem for solution providers like us, what happens is, we're forced to integrate with Kubernetes, the Kubernetes master service. At some point customers are like, "alright, so you're integrated with Kubernetes, "and this person is integrated, "and this other piece of software integrated." What STO does is it very cleanly separates the network policy from Kubernetes to STO. So we have to integrate only with STO and we are doing that integration right now. So from our perspective these are northbound orchestration systems and policies systems, once STO solidifies, and I expect sometime next year, maybe the middle of next year, maybe late next year, and we're ready for production and then you can continue to use us within the system. >> Yeah Guru, I'm going to have to say you're the hipster service mesh company then, right? You were doing it before it was cool. (Guru, Stu and John laugh) >> Yes and then perhaps we can move-- >> Alright so I got-- >> on to something else >> We love the STO is a total geek conversation but this is super important, I want to get you thoughts on this, I do agree it's definitely got some work to do but there's, it's the number one open-source project within the CNCF, so clearly there's a ton of interest. And a lot of the alpha geeks are going there they see great, great value there. Containers, check. Containers are great. Kubernetes, check, on a good path. STO is interesting cause its service meshes is a concept that kind of ties networking with apps and you guys are in the middle of this. What does that mean for the network engineer out there or for the company, why should they pay attention to this service mesh concept or STO and the role of mircoservices? Clearly microservices makes sense if you're APIing everything you want to have more services developing. but what's going on under the hood? Why is STO getting so much traction in your opinion? >> It's a very simple reason John. So this was my world as a network engineer. I had a few of these applications I would look at them, they're like my little puppy, and I would configure my entire network to support these applications. The world of microservices, and really this new world that we live in, I don't have one of these, I have 100 of these per application, so I have 100,000 of these floating around. I can't do it without using policy. Policy is at the root of all this, intent-based networking, declarative policies, STO, declarative policies, our platform, declarative policies. So the entire world of networking is moving away from, let me go to one of my 50 switches and configure the CLI, to let me define a set of ten policies that we will then apply to 100,000 applications, cause frankly, there's only ten different things I want to do. I don't want to configure a 100,000 endpoints. I just want to do ten things, that's something I can do as a human and that's really what's at the root of this. So it's really intent-based networking sort of at different layers. >> So there's been conversation, we've been obviously talking about this on theCUBE since day one here about, we believe the network engineer, the Cisco customer, if you will, or people getting all of these certifications, they're going to be so much more powerful because there's been a conversation in other press and media around the death of the network engineer (Guru laughs) We should, look they're the mainframe guy-- >> Which iteration of that are we on? 'Cause I hear that every five years. >> They better learn how to code so they don't lose their job. When actually, the network is getting more and more powerful, so what you're talking about, we think connects and validates that the network engineer, the one doing Cyber Ops, data center, service provider, industrial IOT, CCNA, CCIEs, these guys are going to be a fish to water when they hear words like policy, dynamic provisioning these are-- >> Automation, APIs. >> These are concepts they're used to. What's your thoughts on that because this is a kind of a new emerging connect point that DevNet's kind of pointed with DevNet Create and DevNet proper, what are you're thoughts? >> Yeah, listen I have tremendous empathy for our customer base, I used to be a customer on the other side a couple of decades ago, and there's this sort of fashion in Silicon Valley to come up with new innovations and then say, "oh, all those people, they're going to be left behind "and my technology is going to be awesome." I don't subscribe to that, the hunger I see in networking teams to continually add value is unparalleled today. The hunger I see for automation, for learning REST API, STKs, Python, Ansible, interacting with DevNet is unparalleled. And in some sense if that wasn't there, why would you have intent-based networking, why would a vendor like Cisco, a vendor like AVI emerge? Why would we build these amazing things if there wasn't a hunger for this? So, I think the network is going to be extremely important and most of the networking teams today will make that transition. I'm not going to discount the fact that there will be some who will want to hug their load balancers for the next 10 years, and I have bad news for them, there was a time when you could ride it out for five or 10 years before the next tech showed up. Those days are gone, man. The new tech shows up today and then you're like, "no, not going to happen for about 12 or 18 months." And then boom! Everything just changes. >> So what's your advice to that, of those networking engineers out there, those folks do, and that are going to be the power players in this new configuration? What should they do? >> Engage. >> Engage, be the person in the organization that brings in a new technology, never in my entire career, two decades now, have I seen individuals in networking teams at banks, at technology companies, at retailers, at grocery store companies, at radiology centers, you know, go out there and ask questions is there a better load balancer, is there a better switching solution, is there a better X, Y, Z, is there a better way to monitor my apps, and then pull in that, play around with that, call the vendor. You know, traditionally it never used to happen. So I'm excited about it. >> Yeah, and it's awesome it's great. It's a great opportunity to be, the timing is perfect. Alright, final question, actually two questions. What's up for next for you guys at AVI Networks on the road map, what's coming next? And then you're take on the show, what's the vibe, what's it like for the folks who didn't make it to Orlando, what'd they miss? >> So our vision is double down on multi-cloud, it's so real, all our customers, all, almost a 100%, are both on-prem and in AWS or Azure and we're continuing to invest in making that easier through the introduction of several sort of initiatives on the platform including SAS, including increased investments in security. So that's on our vision side. Invest in our partnership with Cisco, as I said Cisco is a reseller and now an investor in our last round of funding, so we're pretty excited about that. And they're excited about being close to a company that frankly, is seeing the kind of traction we're seeing. So that's what we're doing over the next three to five years. Show floor, I've got to say 80% of it sounds like, give me your data and I will provide you insights. And that's trivializing that a little bit but I think it goes back to the point, John, you made earlier, where things are moving so fast, so much is changing that there's just an increased excitement around technologies which help you automate, which help you provide better insight, which help you just manage this. >> And then final question, one more, it just popped into my head, got to get out there. Programmability, obviously we believe it is happening, APIs are happening, microservices are right around the corner, you guys are first-generation service mesh and production. What are some of those new apps we're going to see? If the network programmable is first-generation, like an iPhone was for telephony, what kinds of network apps, app-networking apps, are we going to see in the new paradigm that DevNet's pioneering? >> So, actually two kind of apps I'm already seeing in my customer base right now. The first one is self-service and provisioning apps. So as soon as the network becomes programmable the first thing networking teams do, this is a little bit counter intuitive, remember the old world where networking teams were like, "my network, don't touch it." The first thing they're doing now is, they're saying "oh, it's programmable? "Let me build a sandbox for you quickly. "You do it, don't call me. "Don't call me. "Just do your thing, if you hit " the bounds of the sandbox, then "call me and we'll talk about it." So, self-service automation provisioning is the first kind of applications I'm seeing emerging. And the second one is monitoring. You know the age-old problem, I don't know what's going on. So people are building these amazing solutions, I mean our, I thought people would be logging into our CLI or UI and getting insights. No, they're taking my data, right now I counted about 15 upstream solutions from Tetration, to Splunk, to other SIMs, Datadog, AppDynamics, New Relic, they're exporting this wherever they can. And so those are the two classes. Self-service automation and monitoring. >> And this all is underpinning value for safe security monitoring and scripts is right around the corner. Anyway thanks for coming. Okay, AVI Networks' VP of Product here inside theCUBE day three, it's theCUBE coverage here. I'm John Furrier with Stu Miniman at Cisco Live in Orlando. Stay with us, we'll be right back. (techno music)