(upbeat music) >> Announcer: TheCUBE presents KubeCon and CloudNativeCon Europe, 2022. Brought to you by Red Hat, the Cloud Native Computing Foundation and its ecosystem partners. >> Welcome to Valencia, Spain, a KubeCon, CloudNativeCon Europe, 2022. I'm your host, Keith Townsend alongside Paul Gillon, Senior Editor, Enterprise Architecture for SiliconANGLE. We are, I think at the half point way point this to be fair we've talked to a lot of folks in open source in general. What's the difference between open source communities and these closed source communities that we attend so so much? >> Well open source is just it's that it's open it's anybody can contribute. There are a set of rules that manage how your contributions are reflected in the code base. What has to be shared, what you can keep to yourself but the it's an entirely different vibe. You know, you go to a conventional conference where there's a lot of proprietary being sold and it's all about cash. It's all about money changing hands. It's all about doing the deal. And open source conferences I think are more, they're more transparent and yeah money changes hands, but it seems like the objective of the interaction is not to consummate a deal to the degree that it is at a more conventional computer conference. >> And I think that can create an uneven side effect. And we're going to talk about that a little bit with, honestly a friend of mine Alex Ellis, founder of OpenFaaS. Alex welcome back to the program. >> Thank you, good to see Keith. >> So how long you've been doing OpenFaaS? >> Well, I first had this idea that serverless and function should be run on your own hardware back in 2016. >> Wow and I remember seeing you at DockerCon EU, was that in 2017? >> Yeah, I think that's when we first met and Simon Foskett took us out to dinner and we got chatting. And I just remember you went back to your hotel room after the presentation. You just had your iPhone out and your headphones you were talking about how you tried to OpenWhisk and really struggled with it and OpenFaaS sort of got you where you needed to be to sort of get some value out of the solution. >> And I think that's the magic of these open source communities in open source conferences that you can try stuff, you can struggle with it, come to a conference either get some advice or go in another direction and try something like a OpenFaaS. But we're going to talk about the business perspective. >> Yeah. >> Give us some, like give us some hero numbers from the project. What types of organizations are using OpenFaaS and what are like the download and stars all those, the ways you guys measure project success. >> So there's a few ways that you hear this talked about at KubeCon specifically. And one of the metrics that you hear the most often is GitHub stars. Now a GitHub star means that somebody with their laptop like yourself has heard of a project or seen it on their phone and clicked a button that's it. There's not really an indication of adoption but of interest. And that might be fleeting and a blog post you might publish you might bump that up by 2000. And so OpenFaaS quite quickly got a lot of stars which encouraged me to go on and do more with it. And it's now just crossed 30,000 across the whole organization of about 40 different open source repositories. >> Wow that is a number. >> Now you are in ecosystem where Knative is also taken off. And can you distinguish your approach to serverless or FaaS to Knatives? >> Yes so, Knative isn't an approach to FaaS. That's simply put and if you listen to Aikas Ville from the Knative project, he was working inside Google and wished that Kubernetes would do a little bit more than what it did. And so he started an initiative with some others to start bringing more abstractions like Auto Scaling, revision management so he can have two versions of code and and shift traffic around. And that's really what they're trying to do is add onto Kubernetes and make it do some of the things that a platform might do. Now OpenFaaS started from a different angle and frankly, two years earlier. >> There was no Kubernetes when you started it. >> It kind of led in the space and and built out that ecosystem. So the idea was, I was working with Lambda and AWS Alexa skills. I wanted to run them on my own hardware and I couldn't. And so OpenFaaS from the beginning started from that developer experience of here's my code, run it for me. Knative is a set of extensions that may be a building block but you're still pretty much working with Kubernetes. We get calls come through. And actually recently I can't tell you who they are but there's a very large telecommunications provider in the US that was using OpenFaaS, like yourself heard of Knative and in the hype they switched. And then they switched back again recently to OpenFaaS and they've come to us for quite a large commercial deal. >> So did they find Knative to be more restrictive? >> No, it's the opposite. It's a lot less opinionated. It's more like building blocks and you are dealing with a lot more detail. It's a much bigger system to manage, but don't get me wrong. I mean the guys are very friendly. They have their sort of use cases that they pursue. Google's now donated the project to CNCF. And so they're running it that way. Now it doesn't mean that there aren't FaaS on top of it. Red Hat have a serverless product VMware have one. But OpenFaaS because it owns the whole stack can get you something that's always been very lean, simple to use to the point that Keith in his hotel room installed it and was product with it in an evening without having to be a Kubernetes expert. >> And that is and if you remember back that was very anti-Kubernetes. >> Yes. >> It was not a platform I thought that was. And for some of the very same reasons, I didn't think it was very user friendly. You know, I tried open with I'm thinking what enterprise is going to try this thing, especially without the handholding and the support needed to do that. And you know, something pretty interesting that happened as I shared this with you on Twitter, I was having a briefing by a big microprocessor company, one of the big two. And they were showing me some of the work they were doing in Cloud-native and the way that they stretch test the system to show me Auto Scaling. Is that they bought up a OpenFaaS what is it? The well text that just does a bunch of, >> The cows maybe. >> Yeah the cows. That does just a bunch of texts. And it just all, and I'm like one I was amazed at is super simple app. And the second one was the reason why they discovered it was because of that simplicity is just a thing that's in your store that you can just download and test. And it was open fast. And it was this big company that you had no idea that was using >> No >> OpenFaaS. >> No. >> How prevalent is that? That you're always running into like these surprises of who's using the solution. >> There are a lot of top tier companies, billion dollar companies that use software that I've worked on. And it's quite common. The main issue you have with open source is you don't have like the commercial software you talked about, the relationships. They don't tell you they're using it until it breaks. And then they may come in incognito with a personal email address asking for things. What they don't want to do often is lend their brands or support you. And so it is a big challenge. However, early on, when I met you, BT, live person the University of Washington, and a bunch of other companies had told us they were using it. We were having discussions with them took them to Kubecon and did talks with them. You can go and look at them in the video player. However, when I left my job in 2019 to work on this full time I went to them and I said, you know, use it in production it's useful for you. We've done a talk, we really understand the business value of how it saves you time. I haven't got a way to fund it and it won't exist unless you help they were like sucks to be you. >> Wow that's brutal. So, okay let me get this right. I remember the story 2019, you leave your job. You say I'm going to do OpenFaaS and support this project 100% of your time. If there's no one contributing to the project from a financial perspective how do you make money? I've always pitched open source because you're the first person that I've met that ran an open source project. And I always pitched them people like you who work on it on their side time. But they're not the Knatives of the world, the SDOs, they have full time developers. Sponsored by Google and Microsoft, etc. If you're not sponsored how do you make money off of open source? >> If this is the million dollar question, really? How do you make money from something that is completely free? Where all of the value has already been captured by a company and they have no incentive to support you build a relationship or send you money in any way. >> And no one has really figured it out. Arguably Red Hat is the only one that's pulled it off. >> Well, people do refer to Red Hat and they say the Red Hat model but I think that was a one off. And we quite, we can kind of agree about that in a business. However, I eventually accepted the fact that companies don't pay for something they can get for free. It took me a very long time to get around that because you know, with open source enthusiast built a huge community around this project, almost 400 people have contributed code to it over the years. And we have had full-time people working on it on and off. And there's some people who really support it in their working hours or at home on the weekends. But no, I had to really think, right, what am I going to offer? And to begin with it would support existing customers weren't interested. They're not really customers because they're consuming it as a project. So I needed to create a product because we understand we buy products. Initially I just couldn't find the right customers. And so many times I thought about giving up, leaving it behind, my family would've supported me with that as well. And they would've known exactly why even you would've done. And so what I started to do was offer my insights as a community leader, as a maintainer to companies like we've got here. So Casting one of my customers, CSIG one of my customers, Rancher R, DigitalOcean, a lot of the vendors you see here. And I was able to get a significant amount of money by lending my expertise and writing content that gave me enough buffer to give the doctors time to realize that maybe they do need support and go a bit further into production. And over the last 12 months, we've been signing six figure deals with existing users and new users alike in enterprise. >> For support >> For support, for licensing of new features that are close source and for consulting. >> So you have proprietary extensions. Also that are sort of enterprise class. Right and then also the consulting business, the support business which is a proven business model that has worked >> Is a proven business model. What it's not a proven business model is if you work hard enough, you deserve to be rewarded. >> Mmh. >> You have to go with the system. Winter comes after autumn. Summer comes after spring and you, it's no point saying why is it like that? That's the way it is. And if you go with it, you can benefit from it. And that's what the realization I had as much as I didn't want to do it. >> So you know this community, well you know there's other project founders out here thinking about making the leap. If you're giving advice to a project founder and they're thinking about making this leap, you know quitting their job and becoming the next Alex. And I think this is the perception that the misperception out there. >> Yes. >> You're, you're well known. There's a difference between being well known and well compensated. >> Yeah. >> What advice would you give those founders >> To be. >> Before they make the leap to say you know what I'm going to do my project full time. I'm going to lean on the generosity of the community. So there are some generous people in the community. You've done some really interesting things for individual like contributions etc but that's not enough. >> So look, I mean really you have to go back to the MBA mindset. What problem are you trying to solve? Who is your target customer? What do they care about? What do they eat and drink? When do they go to sleep? You really need to know who this is for. And then customize a journey for them so that they can come to you. And you need some way initially of funneling those people in qualifying them because not everybody that comes to a student or somebody doing a PhD is not your customer. >> Right, right. >> You need to understand sales. You need to understand a lot about business but you can work it out on your way. You know, I'm testament to that. And once you have people you then need something to sell them that might meet their needs and be prepared to tell them that what you've got isn't right for them. 'cause sometimes that's the one thing that will build integrity. >> That's very hard for community leaders. It's very hard for community leaders to say, no >> Absolutely so how do you help them over that hump? I think of what you've done. >> So you have to set some boundaries because as an open source developer and maintainer you want to help everybody that's there regardless. And I think for me it was taking some of the open source features that companies used not releasing them anymore in the open source edition, putting them into the paid developing new features based on what feedback we'd had, offering support as well but also understanding what is support. What do you need to offer? You may think you need a one hour SLA for a fix probably turns out that you could sell a three day response time or one day response time. And some people would want that and see value in it. But you're not going to know until you talk to your customers. >> I want to ask you, because this has been a particular interest of mine. It seems like managed services have been kind of the lifeline for pure open source companies. Enabling these companies to maintain their open source roots, but still have a revenue stream of delivering as a service. Is that a business model option you've looked at? >> There's three business models perhaps that are prevalent. One is OpenCore, which is roughly what I'm following. >> Right. >> Then there is SaaS, which is what you understand and then there's support on pure open source. So that's more like what Rancher does. Now if you think of a company like Buoyant that produces Linkerd they do a bit of both. So they don't have any close source pieces yet but they can host it for you or you can host it and they'll support you. And so I think if there's a way that you can put your product into a SaaS that makes it easier for them to run then you know go for it. However, we've OpenFaaS, remember what is the core problem we are solving, portability So why lock into my cloud? >> Take that option off the table, go ahead. >> It's been a long journey and I've been a fan since your start. I've seen the bumps and bruises and the scars get made. If you're open source leader and you're thinking about becoming as famous as Alex, hey you can do that, you can put in all the work become famous but if you want to make a living, solve a problem, understand what people are willing to pay for that problem and go out and sell it. Valuable lessons here on theCUBE. From Valencia, Spain I'm Keith Townsend along with Paul Gillon and you're watching theCUBE the leader in high-tech coverage. (Upbeat music)

>> Live from Seattle, Washington, it's theCUBE, covering KubeCon and CloudNativeCon, North America 2018. Brought to you by Red Hat, the cloud native computing foundation, and its ecosystem partners. >> Hello and welcome back to theCUBE's live coverage day three here, theCUBE covering KubeCon and CloudNativeCon 2018 in Seattle. I'm John Furrier, with Stu Miniman, and Justin Warren here to break down the action. Justin Warren, as you know, is Guest Analyst for us at many events, Chief Analyst at PivotNine, coming all back over here again, to break it down. So we're going to dissect what's going on here at KubeCon, CloudNativeCon. This is, some say, me, the last stand to stop Amazon. Justin, good to see you. >> Good to see you as well, man. Stu, my first question is, as the show winds down, day three, a lot of people have left, all the big execs are gone, it's kind of last day, people coming together, party was last night, so we kind of see all the action, we kind of fished this pond dry, in theCUBE here, the last couple of days. The themes are starting to emerge. What are you seeing, what's your thoughts? >> Yeah, I mean, first of all, John, 8,000 people, this is, you know, geeks that are really excited, and I mean that in the best of ways, of course. There's actually, there were people here before the show started, doing lightning talks and full day sessions. Tomorrow, there's an operative session that another 250 or 300 people will be doing Friday, so, you know, and people want to just suck the marrow out of the bone that is everything going on here, just get every ounce of knowledge here, and they are deep into this session, so, this is a great community. The question I want to ask you guys is you were at Amazon re:Invent two weeks ago. We've watched that show. I want the compare and contrast of this ecosystem and show, not just compare it to like, say, open stack, which we've been teasing apart all week, and I think there are some things we need to worry about, but a lot of good differences. But compare against the big one in the room, which is Amazon, and a big difference is Amazon is here, and they have a seat at the table, because they have to, and customers will force them there, but you know, should this worry Amazon, and how does this ecosystem compare with the Amazon ecosystem. The big thing for me is, I understand how people make money in the ecosystem of Amazon. I'm still trying to figure that out here. >> Yeah, eh, it is a different ecosystem. It does have a bit of a vibe of it could be the new re:Invent. We've had conversations over the last couple of days about-- >> Or is this the independent cloud, >> Exactly. >> You know, open ecosystem. >> It is the independent show that we've been waiting for, that we've wanted since COMDEX and Interop kind of went away, and it's all been vendor shows, and now we have an independent show where all the vendors can come and have kind of a neutral meeting place, and we can all gather together and have some common ground, which is like, that's what Kubernetes is. I've been saying over the last couple of days, Kubernetes is like the ethernet of cloud, so it's something which is an agreed standard and we can all collaborate on, and then, you never bet against ethernet. So know you can build all these other things on top of that platform, yeah. >> Just a quick note on that, right, that's Interop, and networking was at the core of that. It was basically everybody, oh, it's the chance of if we give true interoperability, maybe we can do multi-vendor and it won't all be Cisco, who dominated that market. Amazon's the same. >> Stu, this is to me, ethernet's a great example. I say TCPIP as well. Both are enabling technologies that are standardized, or actually started as de facto standards. They weren't necessarily bona fide standards. They emerged when people rallied around them. Those de facto standards, emerge and become a catalyst point for people to build on top of and around. Remember, there's still a lower level below the stack on ethernet. So you had, you know, physical data link layer in the OSI model, the grandfather of all stacks. That really changed, I think, 20 years of growth and innovation. I think Kubernetes is, exactly right, Justin, it's exactly your point. I see that as well, that it's not so much Kubernetes is going to be the be all end all. It's what it enables, and I think the innovations on top of Kubernetes, and underneath Kubernetes, take the holy trinity, I've been saying this on theCUBE now for the past year, the holy trinity of infrastructure and IT is storage compute networking, and those things are now being repurposed in a way that is highly scalable, dynamic, and resourceful for a lot of things. AI is a great example, everyone talks about AI, but storage policy, the knobs in Kubernetes can manage, and Google saying the guys of Kubernetes. That's one of the most underutilized aspects of Kubernetes, is the networking guys managing the knobs from below, and then app guys with servers messing maybe on the top. This is just an absolute growth engine, and the comparison to Amazon is similar, because Andy Jassy talks about builders, the right tool for the job. This is essentially the same mantra. I mean, this is tools, platforms. >> It's very similar, but with one very important difference, and around the money side of things. You don't have this massive behemoth which is going to come in, and one year you're on the keynote, and the next year we just announced a product, which completely killed your business. It's open source. That's not really going to happen. So you've got that common core of things, where there's no real competitive advantage on this stuff. So that's, you know, Linux, where's the competitive advantage on a kernel? There isn't one. So open source makes great sense for that kind of core of things that you then build upon, and then all the money is in all the innovation, all the value add that goes on top of that, and that makes a huge amount of sense to have an open source show for that. >> And I think, Stu, one of the things that we always talk about, networking in cloud, I think the concept of cloud is going to be old hat. You heard it here first on theCUBE. Because cloud is Amazon, cloud is a set of resources. When we start thinking about IoT at the edge, when you talk about moving compute to the edge, you're going to start to see mesh networks, peer to peer, and add a new kind of platform configurations that isn't necessarily cloud. It's a new thing. It's a platform, open platform, and there's going to be some incentives that are going to be designed for startups, that's economically beneficial to the new kinds of things, versus the economic incentives that Amazon might not have, to do things. So I think we're going to see emergence of new stuff. I would still say that cloud is a state of mind, it's not a location. And we here, it's CloudNativeCon. It's not just KubeCon. It's about doing things in a cloud native way, and that, like you say, it doesn't matter where it is or how it communicates together, but it's the way you operate it, it's the way it actually works in practice. It's not so much of, oh, we're going to build it here and we're going to put it in that cloud, or that cloud, or that cloud. >> And I think we've had some real clarity as to what that future of multi cloud looks like, 'cause it's not one massive cloud everywhere, it's not, oh, my applications spanning all over the place. It's we're working to solve that really tough problem of distributed architectures, and giving us ways that I shouldn't have to think about where I am spinning that up, or if I need to change vendor, not necessarily portability, you still do have some lock in, because Kubernetes is not the full stack, it's a piece of the overall platform, and while there's 75 different versions here that are all compliant, I should be able to move between them, but the devil's in the details, and there's lots of stuff that goes on top. >> Let's talk about multi cloud for a second. 'Cause you mentioned COMDEX, you talked about ethernet. At that time, during those big revolutions, the word multi-vendor was a big buzz word. Multi-vendor was like the basis of COMDEX. We all got to play together. Multi-vendor meant choice. Today, multi cloud is just a modern version of multi-vendor. >> Exactly, it's multi-vendor, and that's what enterprises want. Enterprises are a bit wary now. We hear lots of conversation about lock in, and that comes up a lot, and it's a real thing. Enterprises are concerned, they don't want to bet on one company, and then find out that actually, it's technology, it changes, things need to be moved around. We don't want to wake up in five, six years, and then suddenly find, oh my god, I can't change anything because I'm locked into this one vendor. >> So, Justin, they say they want multi-vendor. When it came to networking, I spent years working on interoperability, and plug tests, and all these things, and at the end of the day, it was way better to get my standards plus with a single vendor than it was to try to loop them together, and then, oh, when I changed something, so hopefully the difference here is actually, we have loosely coupled services, we have APIs, so can we actually do multi-vendor, multi-cloud that doesn't stress out my team, and have, every time I want to make a change, or they make a change, it moves. The new cloud world should be, things change, you know, it changes upstream, and downstream, I get to use them. So, once again, we talk about the shiny nirvana of, oh, you know, it's serverless, and the old trinity of computer storage. I don't even need to worry about that, 'cause it'll just work, but wait, if something goes wrong, I've been talking to a bunch of vendors here, that actually, how do I get observability, and manageability, to be able to drill down, because things could still go wrong. >> Well, you heard Bloomberg, we had an end user come on, it's a very interesting point, and Dan Khan, from the executive director, well, Bloomberg's kind of a different case, but look at what Bloomberg does. The guy said to us, "I actually don't want to buy "these products and services. "I just want to pay them money "to be available to support me "when I need support." 'Cause Bloomberg has fully integrated all their support internally. I think that's a trend that we're going to see in the enterprise, where CIOs start building teams, real software chops. It might not be as big as Bloomberg, but the notion of, we're going to run our own stuff. We'll use management services where appropriate, but we're going to have a core software build strategy, and I can't wait. An SLA of four hour response time. I need like, minutes. >> And that's how, I think, where we don't have the answers yet. There are still a lot of questions that enterprises are trying to work out about how do I actually do that. So you mentioned Bloomberg, and I interviewed them a few months ago, wrote something in Forbes about them. They are a special case in that they have chosen that we're going to invest in this technology so that we have people on staff, in our company, who understand Kubernetes. Now, that's not a choice that every enterprise is going to make, but they decided that actually, this technology, this software is so important to our business, to where we get all the value for our business that we need to invest in that technology. And I think a lot of enterprises are realizing that, actually, outsourcing everything to one vendor, and then giving all of your innovation engine to someone else, and they're realizing that was a mistake. Now, they're trying to figure out, okay, what do we bring in house, what do we do ourselves, what do we get vendors to do, which technologies do we use for what particular value creation, and that complexity, that decision making process, that's what we haven't quite worked out yet, and that's where I think there's a lot of value in the ecosystem, with service providers who can provide advice on here is how you should do it, based on what you need to do. >> That's a great point. Stu, I want you to comment on that. Let's refine this for a second, 'cause the people who actually spend the money, or the people re-imagining IT infrastructure, IT applications. The CIO, I've interviewed the VP of Advanced Technology at Proctor and Gamble, and he told me, when he came in, he came from Coca Cola, he's been an old IT guy, he says, look, we outsourced everything to the point where we're anemic. We got a couple of storage guys, they're pushing buttons, they're jumping on, calling the vendors, they outsource everything. He says they had no ability to create a competitive advantage for the business, and what they moved quickly to was to bring talent in to be builders, to be in house. So now you have that trend happening in the modern CIO, CXO kind of roles. Now you have to say, okay, I got teams here. How do I get the investments deployed, how do I go to this ecosystem here with all these tools, all these capabilities, how do I invest, how do I build out. >> Look, I think Kelsey Hightower had a great point when we interviewed him this week. It is a huge opportunity for managed services, because like we talked about, the Amazon, or even the ecosystem, how do I keep up with all of this, and the answer is, you don't. You need to be able to have people, whether it's system integrators, or partners that are going to help that. You know, look, Amazon gets criticized for not being deeper in open source. Well, they use a lot of open source and they deliver those services, and they make it easy. Frictionless is something we talked about for many years as being the thing. The enterprise wants to be able to spend money and just go do it, because they don't have a team to pitch these. Even somebody like Bloomberg, or some of these really big companies I love, talking, you've got Apple, and Nordstrom, and some really interesting, oh, by the way, and they're all hiring. Whether or not they're actually using Kubernetes, they cannot confirm or deny, but you know, we know how that goes. >> Hold on, first, let's unpack the end user piece here, okay? Amazon is pushing 5,000 reference-able customers. Okay, it's not about the Amazon question. End users here, how many reference-able customers are here? What are they actually, Uber's here, they're hiring. They might have some Kubernetes stuff in the background. Sure, they probably do. But actually, what does the end user adoption really look like? I mean... >> It's still early, but again, a difference between this show and Amazon re:Invent. How many end customers have a booth at re:Invent? Compared to here, where we have people, end customers who are here mostly to try to hire talent. They have booths. >> Kudos to the CNCF. They've got 80 end users participating. There are a lot of users here. This is not the vendor fest that we see at some shows when they get big. I hear they're not seeking the vendors. The vendors that I talked to were happy because they are the users here, and they're excited. Before we go, John, there's a couple kinks in the armors and things we need to worry about. The two, if I look at service meshes, and I look at serverless as a huge threat. One of the things I wanted to look at coming in was I'd heard a lot of talk about Knative, and I think Knative is great, but it is not, you know, Lambda is the defacto standard, just like S3 was before. Lambda is this, and Knative has absolutely nothing to do with Lambda and does not connect with it. It is the difference between serverless and functions, and so, all the AWS functions and all the Azure functions have nothing to do with Knative. For the people that looked at OpenWhisk and all these other options, Knative seems a good way to pull, they've done a re-spin of what's happening there, and it's moving things down the line. Once again, as Kelsey said, if we look at serverless as a spectrum, which many of the hardcore serverless people will debate and argue, and be like, that's not real, serverless, well, just like we said, there is only one real cloud, and it was Amazon. We know that's not the case. It will be a spectrum, we want to meet customers where they are. So, Knative, good news, but the elephant in the room is that AWS and Azure are where all of the serverless really happens, and therefore, there is a big air gap between them. Justin, service mesh is something I know you've been looking at. Give it to us the good, bad, and the ugly. >> Service mesh is really, really early. So, we're at that part where there's a diversity of innovation going on. There's about 12, or at least 12 different companies here at the show, who are all doing something with service mesh. They're all trying to sell you a different solution. This is what happens with technology. A new technology gets created, and we have this flurry of all these startups, who are all trying different things. And this is the destructive force of capitalism. Not all of them are going to succeed, but we have to have them all out there in the market, because at the moment, it's too early to figure out, okay, well, it's definitely going to be that one. If we knew that one, then I'd be putting all of my money behind that one company today. >> Last year, Justin, all the talk was about SDO. I've heard a lot of talk about SDO, but it hasn't all been good. >> No, that's the thing. So we've had a year now, and last year was definitely, hey, SDO is like, the service mesh. Like, not so much. Envoy seems to be the common ground that people are actively using. That's what most people are building on top of. So it looks like Envoy's going to be that underlayer of everything else. But in terms of how you actually use service mesh, it's still very early, and people are trying to figure out how to do I use this quite complex technology in practice? And as people use it more, as we get more adoption, then we'll start to see that one or two of the methods and the approaches will win out over all of the others, and that's where we can expect to see, well, I have an anointed winner. That will then win out, because it's useful, because it's functional, because end users want to do it that way. >> And Envoy, by the way, had traction. They had a sold out EnvoyCon. On the first day, 350 people, Lyft is driving that, and they're just heads down, solving problems. I think that seems to be the formula for some of the successful products, where you take away all the window dressing and the hype. It comes down to who's solving what problems. >> And that's the thing with open source. You can't just throw a whole bunch of marketing dollars at it to make it succeed. If end users don't like the code, and they don't use it, then it won't work. >> John, I want you to give us the word on the open source business model. We watched in the last year, Red Hat bought CoreOS for 250 million, then they were acquired by IBM for 34 billion, pending final, and all that stuff and everything, and then, reading through the VMware, SCC filing $550 million for Heptio. You know, big, big dollars, so, is open source just getting a lot of customers, and they get acquired by the big guys? What's the take? >> I think it's interesting. First of all, Red Hat might not like what I'm about to say, but I'll just say it. I think there was a steal with CoreOS. If you look at what Heptio got for valuation, CoreOS was an absolute steal. The team was phenomenal, they were doing some amazing work. At that time of the acquisition, the debate of how to make money dominated versus just getting behind the technology, and I think CoreOS was a fantastic team, and they had the right tracking. You can see what's happening now with now part of the Red Hat. So, Red Hat got a massive lift on that, so I think, kudos to Red Hat for taking that up the table at that time. Great acquisition, I think that helped them propel, and now show that to IBM that there's real value there. Now, I think open source as a business model is interesting because it's changing, right? You now have a new generation of builders and developers coming in. Open source has to evolve, and I think the CNCF I think is a cutting edge experiment or Petri dish of how to stay true to open source principles, and still nurture and enable a downstream impact for the commercialization. I think it's an opportunity, but it's also one of their biggest challenges, because if this is COMDEX, COMDEX is an open source. It's hawking wares, right? So it's a different business model. So, this is going to be a very interesting test in the industry to see how the current open source momentum, which is looking really strong right now, how that can interplay with commercialization, because certainly, the money's there, the value's there, and if we can get these value spots identified, the white spaces for startups, and let the big guys also play as well, it's going to be a very interesting landscape, it's certainly dynamic. I don't have the answers, but my gut's telling me that a whole new level of sets of services and platforms are going to be composed around these services, and I think it's all going to be driven by open source, that's clear. How it shapes out, valuations and the talent buys, the momentum, market buy, we'll be watching, I don't know. >> Yeah, it's exciting times. We're here at the beginnings of what I hope is going to be this massive new ecosystem, and we get to watch it grow, we get to watch it change. It's a great place to be. >> All I can say, Stu, is I wish I was 25 years old again, right now, because for young entrepreneurs, and young tech folks, this is probably one of the most exciting times, because you have real computer science, and dormant computer science, now re-energized with cloud computing scale. It's just like-- >> John, they don't appreciate what they had, you know. They don't know what it was like to have a computer that wasn't actually connected to things, let alone what we had. >> I used to build my own graphics libraries, I used to walk to school in bare feet in the snow. It's so hard. It's so easy now. >> Creating ones and zeroes-- >> Where's my token ring? >> Creating ones and zeroes by banging rocks together. >> It's so easy now. You guys got it made. You have no idea. Great stuff, Stu, this is great analysis, and I think, again, KubeCon is the beginning, with Cloud Native, this is just a small signal, I think. I think there's going to be a COMDEX moment soon, unless this thing just blows up, which I don't think is going to happen. >> I mean, look, last thing, John, I want to big thank to the Linux Foundation, CNCF, for working with us. We've been neighbors in the early days, great partnership, this community. They've got a great media section. All of friends over here, that are creating a lot of con, working really hard. The amount of work that goes through, and as we had the people from CNCF talking. They've got a core team, but it's people that volunteer, and we were a community too, and all our sponsors, John. >> Yeah, thanks to the community, and again, one more final point is that, this market, Justin, as you know, we all cover it, is in a learning mode. There's a lot of education oriented stuff that people are interested in. You've got Alex Williams over at New Stack, DevOps.com, TFiR over there, everyone's up in media out there. There is a thirst for content, there's a thirst for community learning. The sessions are packed. I mean, the hallways are interesting. You see people huddling, and I overhear the conversations. They're not talking about what party to go to, they're talking about how to implement a Kubernetes cluster, so this, really people working on and off the court here, so to speak. So, it's been great coverage. So, day three, breaking it down. I'm John Furrier, Justin Warren, Stu Miniman, back with more coverage, day three, after the short break. (techno music)

>> Announcer: Live from Vancouver, Canada it's theCUBE, covering OpenStack Summit North America 2018. Brought to you by Red Hat, the OpenStack foundation, and its Ecosystem partners. >> Welcome back, I'm Stu Miniman and my cohost John Troyer and you're watching theCUBE's coverage of OpenStack Summit 2018 here in Vancouver. Happy to welcome first-time guest Roland Cabana who is a DevOps Manager at Vault Systems out of Australia, but you come from a little bit more local. Thanks for joining us Roland. >> Thank you, thanks for having me. Yes, I'm actually born and raised in Vancouver, I moved to Australia a couple years ago. I realized the potential in Australian cloud providers, and I've been there ever since. >> Alright, so one of the big things we talk about here at OpenStack of course is, you know, do people really build clouds with this stuff, where does it fit, how is it doing, so a nice lead-in to what does Vault Systems do for the people who aren't aware. >> Definitely, so yes, we do build cloud, a cloud, or many clouds, actually. And Vault Systems provides cloud services infrastructure service to Australian Government. We do that because we are a certified cloud. We are certified to handle unclassified DLM data, and protected data. And what that means is the sensitive information that is gathered for the Australian citizens, and anything to do with big user-space data is actually secured with certain controls set up by the Australian Government. The Australian Government body around this is called ASD, the Australian Signals Directorate, and they release a document called the ISM. And this document actually outlines 1,088 plus controls that dictate how a cloud should operate, how data should be handled inside of Australia. >> Just to step back for a second, I took a quick look at your website, it's not like you're listed as the government OpenStack cloud there. (Roland laughs) Could you give us, where does OpenStack fit into the overall discussion of the identity of the company, what your ultimate end-users think about how they're doing, help us kind of understand where this fits. >> Yeah, for sure, and I mean the journey started long ago when we, actually our CEO, Rupert Taylor-Price, set out to handle a lot of government information, and tried to find this cloud provider that could handle it in the prescribed way that the Australian Signals Directorate needed to handle. So, he went to different vendors, different cloud platforms, and found out that you couldn't actually meet all the controls in this document using a proprietary cloud or using a proprietary platform to plot out your bare-metal hardware. So, eventually he found OpenStack and saw that there was a great opportunity to massage the code and change it, so that it would comply 100% to the Australian Signals Directorate. >> Alright, so the keynote this morning were talking about people that build, people that operate, you've got DevOps in your title, tell us a little about your role in working with OpenStack, specifically, in broader scope of your-- >> For sure, for sure, so in Vault Systems I'm the DevOps Manager, and so what I do, we run through a lot of tests in terms of our infrastructure. So, complying to those controls I had mentioned earlier, going through the rigmarole of making sure that all the different services that are provided on our platform comply to those specific standards, the specific use cases. So, as a DevOps Manger, I handle a lot of the pipelining in terms of where the code goes. I handle a lot of the logistics and operations. And so it actually extends beyond just operation and development, it actually extends into our policies. And so marrying all that stuff together is pretty much my role day-to-day. I have a leg in the infrastructure team with the engineering and I also have a leg in with sort of the solutions architects and how they get feedback from different customers in terms of what we need and how would we architect that so it's safe and secure for government. >> Roland, so since one of your parts of your remit is compliance, would you say that you're DevSecOps? Do you like that one or not? >> Well I guess there's a few more buzzwords, and there's a few more roles I can throw in there but yeah, I guess yes. DevSecOps there's a strong security posture that Vault holds, and we hold it to a higher standard than a lot of the other incumbents or a lot of platform providers, because we are actually very sensitive about how we handle this information for government. So, security's a big portion of it, and I think the company culture internally is actually centered around how we handle the security. A good example of this is, you know, internally we actually have controls about printing, you know, most modern companies today, they print pages, and you know it's an eco thing. It's an eco thing for us too, but at the same time there are controls around printed documents, and how sensitive those things are. And so, our position in the company is if that control exists because Australian Government decides that that's a sensitive matter, let's adopt that in our entire internal ecosystem. >> There was a lot of talk this morning at the keynote both about upgrades, and I'm blanking on the name of the new feature, but also about Zuul and about upgrading OpenStack. You guys are a full Upstream, OpenStack expert cloud provider. How do you deal with upgrades, and what do you think the state of the OpenStack community is in terms of kind of upgrades, and maintenance, and day two kind of stuff? >> Well I'll tell you the truth, the upgrade path for OpenStack is actually quite difficult. I mean, there's a lot of moving parts, a lot of components that you have to be very specific in terms of how you upgrade to the next level. If you're not keeping in step of the next releases, you may fall behind and you can't upgrade, you know, Keystone from a Liberty all the way up to Alcatel, right? You're basically stuck there. And so what we do is we try to figure out what the government needs, what are the features that are required. And, you know, it's also a conversation piece with government, because we don't have certain features in this particular release of OpenStack, it doesn't mean we're not going to support it. We're not going to move to the next version just because it's available, right? There's a lot of security involved in fusing our controls inside our distribution of OpenStack. I guess you can call it a distribution, on our build of OpenStack. But it's all based on a conversation that we start with the government. So, you know, if they need VGPUs for some reason, right, with the Queens release that's coming out, that's a conversation we're starting. And we will build into that functionality as we need it. >> So, does that mean that you have different entities with different versions, and if so, how do you manage all of that? >> Well, okay, so yes that's true. We do have different versions where we have a Liberty release, and we have an Alcatel release, which is predominant in our infrastructure. And that's only because we started with the inception of the Liberty release before our certification process. A lot of the things that we work with government for is how do they progress through this cloud maturity model. And, you know, the forklift and shift is actually a problem when you're talking about releases. But when you're talking about containerization, you're talking about Agile Methodologies and things like that, it's less of a reliance on the version because you now have the ability to respawn that same application, migrate the data, and have everything live as you progress through different cloud platforms. And so, as OpenStack matures, this whole idea of the fast forward idea of getting to the next release, because now they have an integration step, or they have a path to the next version even though you're two or three versions behind, because let's face it, most operators will not go to the latest and greatest, because there's a lot of issues you're going to face there. I mean, not that the software is bad, it's just that early adopters will come with early adopter problems. And, you know, you need that userbase. You need those forum conversations to be able to be safe and secure about, you know, whether or not you can handle those kinds of things. And there's no need for our particular users' user space to have those latest and greatest things unless there is an actual request. >> Roland, you are an IAS provider. How are you handling containers, or requests for containers from your customers? >> Yes, containers is a big topic. There's a lot of maturity happening right now with government, in terms of what a container is, for example, what is orchestration with containers, how does my Legacy application forklift and shift to a container? And so, we're handling it in stages, right, because we're working with government in their maturity. We don't do container services on the platform, but what we do is we open-source a lot of code that allows people to deploy, let's say a terraform file, that creates a Docker Host, you know, and we give them examples. A good segue into what we've just launched last week was our Vault Academy, which we are now training 3,000 government public servants on new cloud technologies. We're not talking about how does an OS work, we're talking about infrastructures, code, we're talking about Kubernetes. We're talking about all these cool, fun things, all the way up to function as a service, right? And those kinds of capabilities is what's going to propel government in Australia moving forward in the future. >> You hit on one of my hot buttons here. So functions as a service, do you have serverless deployed in your environment, or is it an education at this point? >> It's an education at this point. Right now we have customers who would like to have that available as a native service in our cloud, but what we do is we concentrate on the controls and the infrastructure as a service platform first and foremost, just to make sure that it's secure and compliant. Everyone has the ability to deploy functions as a service on their platform, or on their accounts, or on their tenancies, and have that available to them through a different set of APIs. >> Great. There's a whole bunch of open-source versions out there. Is that what they're doing? Do you any preference toward the OpenWhisk, or FN, or you know, Fission, all the different versions that are out there? >> I guess, you know, you can sort of like, you know, pick your racehorse in that regard. Because it's still early days, and I think open to us is pretty much what I've been looking at recently, and it's just a discovery stage at this point. There are more mature customers who are coming in, some partners who are championing different technologies, so the great is that we can make sure our platform is secure and they can build on top of it. >> So you brought up security again, one of the areas I wanted to poke at a little bit is your network. So, it being an IS provider, networking's critical, what are you doing from a networking standpoint is micro-segmentation part of your environment? >> Definitely. So natively to build in our cloud, the functions that we build in our cloud are all around security, obviously. Micro-segmentation's a big part of that, training people in terms of how micro-segmentation works from a forklift and shift perspective. And the network connectivity we have with the government is also a part of this whole model, right? And so, we use technologies like Mellanox, 400G fabric. We're BGP internally, so we're routing through the host, or routing to the host, and we have this... Well so in Australia there's this, there's service from the Department of Finance, they create this idea of an icon network. And what it is, is an actually direct media fiber from the department directly to us. And that means, directly to the edge of our cloud and pipes right through into their tenancy. So essentially what happens is, this is true, true hybrid cloud. I'm not talking about going through gateways and stuff, I'm talking about I speed up an instance in the Vault cloud, and I can ping it from my desktop in my agency. Low latency, submillisecond direct fiber link, up to 100g. >> Do you have certain programmability you're doing in your network? I know lots of service providers, they want to play and get in there, they're using, you know, new operating models. >> Yes, I mean, we're using the... I draw a blank. There's a lot of technologies we're using for network, and the Cumulus Networking OS is what we're using. That allows us to bring it in to our automation team, and actually use more of a DevOps tool to sort of create the deployment from a code perspective instead of having a lot of engineers hardcoding things right on the actual production systems. Which allows us to gate a lot of the changes, which is part of the security posture as well. So, we were doing a lot of network offloading on the ConnectX-5 cards in the data center, we're using cumulus networks for bridging, we're working with Neutron to make sure that we have Neutron routers and making sure that that's secure and it's code reviewed. And, you know, there's a lot of moving parts there as well, and I think from a security standpoint and from a network functionality standpoint, we've come to a happy place in terms of providing the fastest network possible, and also the most secure and safe network as possible. >> Roland, you're working directly with the Upstream OpenStack projects, and it sounds like some others as well. You're not working with a vendor who's packaging it for you or supporting it. So that's a lot of responsibility on you and your team, I'm kind of curious how you work with the OpenStack community, and how you've seen the OpenStack community develop over the years. >> Yeah, so I mean we have a lot of talented people in our company who actually OpenStack as a passion, right? This is what they do, this is what they love. They've come from different companies who worked in OpenStack and have contributed a lot actually, to the community. And actually that segues into how we operate inside culturally in our company. Because if we do work with Upstream code, and it doesn't have anything to do with the security compliance of the Australian Signals Directorate in general, we'd like to Upstream that as much as possible and contribute back the code where it seems fit. Obviously, there's vendor mixes and things we have internally, and that's with the Mellanox and Cumulus stuff, but anything else beyond that is usually contributed up. Our team's actually very supportive of each other, we have network specialists, we have storage specialists. And it's a culture of learning, so there's a lot of synchronizations, a lot of synergies inside the company. And I think that's part to do with the people who make up Vault Systems, and that whole camaraderie is actually propagated through our technology as well. >> One of the big themes of the show this year has been broadening out of what's happening. We talked a little bit about containers already, Edge Computing is a big topic here. Either Edge, or some other areas, what are you looking for next from this ecosystem, or new areas that Vault is looking at poking at? >> Well, I mean, a lot of the exciting things for me personally, I guess, I can't talk to Vault in general, but, 'cause there's a lot of engineers who have their own opinions of what they like to see, but with the Queens release with the VGPUs, something I'd like, that all's great, a long-term release cycle with the OpenStack foundation would be great, or the OpenStack platform would be great. And that's just to keep in step with the next releases to make sure that we have the continuity, even though we're missing one release, there's a jump point. >> Can you actually put a point on that, what that means for you. We talked to Mark Collier a little bit about it this morning but what you're looking and why that's important. >> Well, it comes down to user acceptance, right? So, I mean, let's say you have a new feature or a new project that's integrated through OpenStack. And, you know, some people find out that there's these new functions that are available. There's a lot of testing behind-the-scenes that has to happen before that can be vetted and exposed as part of our infrastructure as a service platform. And so, by the time that you get to the point where you have all the checks and balances, and marrying that next to the Australian controls that we have it's one year, two years, or you know, however it might be. And you know by that time we're at the night of the release and so, you know, you do all that work, you want to make sure that you're not doing that work and refactoring it for the next release when you're ready to go live. And so, having that long-term release is actually what I'm really keen about. Having that point of, that jump point to the latest and greatest. >> Well Roland, I think that's a great point. You know, it used to be we were on the 18 month cycle, OpenStack was more like a six month cycle, so I absolutely understand why this is important that I don't want to be tied to a release when I want to get a new function. >> John: That's right. >> Roland Cabana, thank you the insight into Vault Systems and congrats on all the progress you have made. So for John Troyer, I'm Stu Miniman. Back here with lots more coverage from the OpenStack Summit 2018 in Vancouver, thanks for watching theCUBE. (upbeat music)

>> Announcer: From San Francisco, it's theCUBE. Covering Red Hat Summit 2018 brought to you by Red Hat. >> Hello everyone and welcome back to see CUBE's exclusive coverage of Red Hat Summit 2018 live in San Francisco, California at Moscone West. I'm John Furrier, your cohost of theCUBE with John Troyer co-founder of Tech Reckoning advisory and community development firm. Our next two guests Mike Piech Vice President and General Manager of middleware at Red Hat and Mark Little, Vice President of Software Engineering for middleware at Red Hat. This is the stack wars right here. Guys thanks for coming back, good to see you guys again. >> Great to see you too. >> So we love Middleware because Dave Vellante and I and Stu always talk about like the real value is going to be created in abstraction layers. You're seeing examples of that all over the place but Kubernetes containers, multi-cloud conversations. Workload management and all these things are happening at these really cool abstraction layers. That's obviously you say global I say middleware but you know it's where the action is. So I got to ask you, super cool that you guys have been leading in there but the new stuff's happening. So let's just go review last year or was it this year? What's different this year, new things happening within the company? We see core OS' in there, you guys got OpenShift is humming along beautifully. What's new in the middleware group? >> There's a few things. I'll take one and then maybe Mike can think of another while I'm speaking but when we were here this time last year we were talking about functions as a service or server-less and we had a project of our own called Funktion with a K, between then and now the developer affinity around functions as a service has just grown. Lots of people are now using it and starting to use it in production. We did a review of what we were doing back then and looked around at other efforts that were in the market space and we decided actually we wanted to get involved with a large community of developers and try and move that in a direction that was pretty beneficial for everybody but clearly for ourselves. And we've decided, and we announced this publicly last year but we're now involved with a project called Apache OpenWhisk instead of Funktion. And OpenWhisk is a project that IBM originally kicked off. We got involved, it was tied very closely to cloud foundering so one of the first things that we've been doing is making it more Kubernetes native and allowing it to run on OpenShift. In fact we're making some announcements this week around our functions are service based on Apache OpenWhisk. But that's probably one of the bigger things that's changed in the last 12 months. >> I would just add to that that across the rest of the middleware portfolio which is as you know, a wide range of different technologies, different products, in our integration area we continue to push ahead with containerizing, putting the integration technologies in the containers, making it easier to basically connect the different components of applications and different applications to each other together through different integration paradigms whether it's messaging or more of a bus style. So with our Jboss Fuse and our AMQ we've made great progress in continuing to refine how those are invoked and consumed in the Openshift environment. Forthcoming very shortly, literally in the next week or two is our integration platform as a service based on the Fuse and AMQ technologies. In addition we've continued to charge ahead with our API management solution based on the technology we acquired from Threescale a couple of years ago. So that is coming along nicely, being very well adopted by our customers. Then further up the stack on the process automation front, so some of the business process management types of technologies we've continued to push ahead with containerizing and that was being higher up the stack and a little bit bigger a scale of technology was a little bit more complex in really setting it up for the containerized world but we've got our Process Automation 7.0 release coming out in the next few weeks. That includes some exciting new technology around case management, so really bringing all of those traditional middleware capabilities forward into the Cloud Native, containerized environment has been I would say the most significant focus of our efforts over the last year. >> Go ahead. >> Can you contextualize some of that a little bit for us? The OpenShift obviously a big topic of conversation here. You know the new thing that everyone's looking at and Kubernetes, but these service layers, these layers it takes to build an app still necessary, Jboss a piece of this stack is 17, 18 years old, right? So can you contextualize it a little bit for people thinking about okay we've got OpenStack on the bottom, we've got OpenShift, where does the middleware and the business process, how has that had to be modernized? And how are people, the Java developers, still fitting into the equation? >> Mark: So a lot of that contextualization can actually, if we go back about four or five years, we announced an initiative called Xpass which was to essentially take the rich middleware suite of products and capabilities we had, and decompose them into independently consumable services kind of like what you see when you look at AWS. They've got the simple queuing service, simple messaging service. We have those capabilities but in the past they were bundled together in an app server, so we worked to pull them apart and allow people to use them independently so if you wanted transactions, or you wanted security, you didn't have to consume the whole app server you actually had these as independent services, so that was Xpass. We've continued on that road for the past few years and a lot of those services are now available as part and parcel of OpenShift. To get to the developer side of things, then we put language veneers on top of those because we're a Java company, well at least middleware is, but there's a lot more than Java out there. There's a lot of people who like to use Pearl or PHP or JavaScript or Go, so we can provide language specific clients for them to interact. At the end of the day, your JavaScript developer who's using bulletproof, high performing messaging doesn't need to know that most of it is implemented in Java. It's just a complete opaque box to them in a way. >> John F: So this is a trend of microservices, this granularity concept of this decomposition, things that you guys are doing is to line up with what people want, work with services directly. >> Absolutely right, to give developers the entire spectrum of granularity. So they can basically architect at a granularity that's appropriate for the given part of their job they're working on it's not a one size fits all proposition. It's not like throw all the monoliths out and decompose every last workload into it's finest grain possible pieces. There's a time and a place for ultra-fine granularity and there's also a time and a place to group things together and with the way that we're providing our runtimes and the reference architectures and the general design paradigm that we're sort of curating and recommending for our customers, it really is all about, not just the right tool for the job but the right granularity for the job. >> It's really choice too, I mean people can choose and then based on their architecture they can manage it the way they want from a design standpoint. Alright I got to get your guys' opinion on something. Certainly we had a great week in Copenhagen last week, in Denmark, around CUBECon, Kubernetes conference, Cloud NativeCon, whatever it's called, they're called two things. There was a rallying cry around Kubernetes and really the community felt like that Linix moment or that TCPIP moment where people talk about standards but like when will we just do something? We got to get behind it and then differentiate and provide all kinds of coolness around it. Core defacto stand with Kubernetes is opening up all kinds of new creative license for developers, it's also bringing up an accelerated growth. Istio's right around the corner, Cubeflow have the cool stuff on how software's being built. >> Right. >> So very cool rallying cry. What is the rallying cry in middleware, in your world? Is there a similar impact going on and what is that? >> Yeah >> Because you guys are certainly affected by this, this is how software will be built. It's going to be orchestrated, composed, granularity options, all kinds of microservices, what's the rallying cry in the middleware? >> So I think the rallying cry, two years ago, at Summit we announced something called MicroProfile with IBM, with Tomitribe, another apps vendor, Piara and a few quite large Java user groups to try and do something innovative and microservices specific with Enterprise Java. It was incredibly successful but the big elephant in the room who wasn't involved in that was Oracle, who at the time was still controlling Java E and a lot of what we do is dependent on Java E, a lot of what other vendors who don't necessarily talk about it do is also dependent on Java E to one degree or another. Even Pivotal with Springboot requires a lot of core services like messaging and transactions that are defined in Java E. So two years further forward where we are today, we've been working with IBM and Oracle and others and we've actually moved, or in process of moving all of Java E away from the old process, away from a single vendor's control into the Eclipse Foundation and although that's going to take us a little while longer to do we've been on that path for about four or five months. The amount of buzz and interest in the community and from companies big and small who would never have got involved in Java E in the past is immense. We're seeing new people get involved with Eclipse Foundation, and new companies get involved with Eclipse Foundation on a daily basis so that they can get in there and start to innovate in Enterprise Java in a much more agile and interesting way than they could have done in the past. I think that's kind of our rallying call because like I said we're getting lots of vendors, Pivotal's involved, Fujitsu. >> John F: And the impact of this is going to be what? >> A lot more innovation, a lot quicker innovation and it's not going to be at the slow speed of standards it's going to be at the fast, upstream, open source innovative speed that we see in likes of Kubernetes. >> And Eclipse has got a good reputation as well. >> Yeah, the other significant thing here, in addition to the faster innovation is it's a way forward for all of that existing Java expertise, it's a way for some of the patterns and some of the knowledge that they have already to be applied in this new world of Cloud Native. So you're not throwing out all that and having to essentially retrain double digit millions of developers around the world. >> John F: It's instant developer actually and plus Java's a great language, it's the bulldozer of languages, it can move a lot, it does a lot of heavy lifting >> Yep. >> And there's a lot of developers out there. Okay, final question I know you guys got to go, thanks for spending the time on theCUBE, really appreciate certainly very relevant, middleware is key to the all the action. Lot of glue going on in that layers. What's going on at the show here for you guys? What's hot, what should people pay attention to? What should they look for? >> Mark: I'll give my take, what's hot is any talk to do with middleware >> (laughs) Biased. >> But kind of seriously we do have a lot of good stuff going on with messaging and Kafka. Kafka's really hot at the moment. We've just released our own project which is eventually going to become a product called Strimsy, integrated with OpenShift so it's coognative from the get-go, it's available now. We're integrating that with OpenWhisk, which we talked about earlier, and also with our own reactive async platform called Vertex, so there's a number of sessions on that and if I get a chance I'm hoping to say into one >> John F: So real quick though I mean streaming is important because you talk about granularity, people are going to start streaming services with service measures right around the corner, the notion of streaming asynchronously is going to be a huge deal >> Absolutely, absolutely. >> Mark: And tapping into that stream at any point in time and then pulling the plug and then doing the work based on that. >> Also real quick, Kubernetes, obviously the momentum is phenomenal in Cloud Native but becoming a first class citizen in the enterprise, still some work to do. Thoughts on that real quick? Would you say Kubernetes's Native, is it coming faster? Will it ever be, certainly I think it will be but. >> I think this is the year of Kubernetes and of enterprise Kubernetes. >> Mike: I mean you just look at the phenomenal growth of OpenShift and that in a way speaks directly to this point >> Mike, what's hot, what's hot? What are you doing at the show, what should we look at? I'd add to, I certainly would echo the points Mark made and in addition to that I would take a look at any session here on API management. Again within middleware the three-scale technology we acquired is still going gangbusters, the customers are loving that, finding it extremely helpful as they start to navigate the complexity of doing essentially distributive computing using containers and microservices, getting more disciplined about API management is of huge relevance in that world, so that would be the next thing I'd add. >> Congratulations guys, finally the operating system called the Cloud is taking over the world. It's basically distributed computer all connected together, it sounds like >> All that stuff we learned in the eighties right (laughs) >> It's a systems world, the middleware is changing the game, modern software construction of Apple cases all being done in a new way, looking at orchestration, server lists, service meshes all happening in real time, guys congratulations on the all the work and Red Hats. Be keeping it in the open, Java E coming around the corner as well, it's theCUBE bringing it out in the open here in San Francisco, I'm John Furrier with John Troyer we'll be back with more live coverage after this short break

>> Presenter: Live from Copenhagen, Denmark, it's the Cube. Covering Kubecon and CloudNativeCon Europe 2018. Brought to you by the Cloud Native Computing foundation, and it's ecosystem partners. >> Well, welcome back everyone, we're live here with the Cube in Copenhagen, Denmark, for KubeCon 2018 Europe, via the CFCF Cloud Native Computing foundation, part of the Linux foundation. I'm John Furrier, my co-host Lauren Cooney here this week. And up next to Yaron Haviv, the founder, and CTO of Iguazio, and Doug Davis, who is the co-chair of the serverless working group, And the CNCF, as well as a developer advocate for IBM, IBM cloud. Great to see you welcome to the Cube. >> Thank you. >> Thanks. >> Thanks for coming in. So love the serverless work, and want to dig into that with a bunch of questions. So, super important trend as we see in that success functions, and all the good stuff that's going on, programmable infrastructure. So I want to dig into that. But first, Yaron, I want to get into what's going on with the business, what's new with you? Iguazio, I saw you're on the sponsorship list here, you're doing a lot of work. You have some news as well. What's going on at KubeCon, Europe for you. >> Yeah, so we're expanding on the business side very nicely, taking more momentum, and this strength towards edge analytics, edge cloud, people starting to understand that central cloud is not the only way to build clouds. We're also progressing nicely on our serverless framework, called Nuclio. It just was published, maybe eight months ago, already made 2000 stars in GitHub, you know, users. We've got some quotes, NPR's around production version of that, including strong partnership with Acer, on being able to run the same functions in Acer, and the cloud in a joint development effort, as well as customers actually using it to build real-time analytics use case in development in the cloud, and deployment in different locations. >> Our audience knows you well, you've been on the cube many times. You also write for us, as well as other blogs with your opinion pieces and commentary. It's always edgy, and strong, and right on the money, I want to ask you your thoughts on serverless, because you were there from day one, I remember the conversation. It wasn't called serverless, we were talking about resource pools and looking at cloud computing, pontificating about, potentially, what Kubernetes and orchestration was going to look like. It's happening. So, are you happy with the progress of the industry, performance of the tech stack? What's your thoughts on serverless today, state of the union? What's your opinion? >> I think it's progressing nicely. I think many people call everything almost, serverless now. You have serverless data bases, you have serverless everything. I think serverless will become, more and more, a feature of a platform, not necessarily a thing. But, like Salesforce will have serverless functions, Wix will have serverless functions, for their own stuff. Obviously cloud platforms, analytic platforms, et cetera. So there'll be, maybe a family of generic ones, and a family of platform specific, that are more use case oriented. >> Does that connect with your business plan for Iguazio? Are you evolving with it? How are you navigating those waters on the adoption side. >> So, you know, I'm sort of trying to be inclusive, I think there's room for more than one serverless framework. There's also OpenWhisk, and Openfazzer, and a few of those. Our focus is mainly real-time analytics, and high performance in data processing. Yes, we can also do other things, but maybe we won't invest too much in some features that are more front-end oriented, or stuff like that. >> John: So you're staying focused on the core. >> Yes, on the other hand, other people to deal with front-end, we'll focus on HTTP, and Blue Logic, and things like that. Most of the frameworks don't have the same capabilities of Nuclio, like real-time stream distribution, real-time, low latencies, all that stuff. So, I think there's room for multiple frameworks, and that's also part of the relationship with Acer. Acer have their own product, which is very good with integration with the Acer stack, and the Acer components. On the other hand there is real-time analytics, in IOT Nuclio is stronger, So, there interest is, rather than saying, no we'll choose just one horse, why won't we enable the market, and allow the people the choice in solution. >> That's great. On IBM's side, Doug I want to get your thoughts on the working group, as well as IBM. You guys have done a lot of open source, IBM well known in the Linux history books, as we know. And now very active again, continuing that mission, congratulations, and thanks for doing that. But the serverless working group. This is a broader scope now, can you just give us some color on the commentary around how that's evolving, because you guys have a lot of blue chip customers. Cloud Foundry just did a survey, I was talking to Abby Kearns yesterday, about the results came back, mainstream tech, not middle of the country, but they heard about Kubenettis like, what's kubenettis? So you have people going, Okay, I've got a job to do, but now kubenettis has arrived, this is a key part of a micro-services focus. >> Right. Yeah, and so the way the serverless group got started was, about a year ago the CNCF TOC, technical oversight committee, decided serverless is kind of a new technology, we want to figure out what's going on in that space, and so they started up a working group. And our job wasn't to really decide what to do about it yet, it was to sort of give us the landscape of what's going on out there, what are people doing? What does serverless even mean, relative to function of the service, or even the other as's, and stuff like that What does a serverless framework generally look like? What do people use it for? Use cases, and stuff like that. And then at the end of that we produced a white paper with our results, as well as a landscape spreadsheet, to say all of the various technologies out there in that space, who's doing what. Without trying to pick winners, just saying what's there. And then we ended with a set of recommendations in terms of what possible next steps the CNCF could do in this space, with an eye towards interoperability building more than anything else, because that's what, really, we care about. We don't want vendor lock in and all the other good stuff. And so we had a set of recommendations, and one of the main ones was, two main things, one was function signatures was a very popular one, but we decided to focus on eventing first, because we thought that might be an easier fruit to pick off the tree first. And so we were going to focus on the formats, or meta data of an event, as it transfers between systems. And so from the service working group we create a cloud events, sort of little sub-group within our working group, to focus on creating a specification around what the meta-data around an event would look like, just so we can get some commonality. That way, at least the infrastructure between the two systems can transfer the events back and forth, much in the same way HTTP layer, doesn't have to understand the body of the message, but can look at common headers, and know how to route it properly. Same kind of thing with eventing. And again, this is all about trying to get interoperability, and portability for applications, and users more than anybody else. And so that's kind of where our focus has been on. How can we help the end user not get locked into one platform, not get locked into one solution, and make their life easier overall. >> Great. Where are you now with that? Is it running? Is it-- >> Overall done. No. >> Oh you're complete, yeah (laughs) >> Doug: But we did that last week. No, actually as of last week though, we just released our first version, 0.1. It's a very, very basic thing, and people might look at it and say, what's the big deal? But even with that simple little thing we've been able to get some level of interoperability between the various platforms. And if people actually join, when is it? Friday 11 o'clock? >> Yaron: Yeah. >> We have a session where someone's going to demonstrate interoperability between, oh gosh, IBM, you guys, Microsoft. >> Google. >> Dameware, Google. All the various companies involved in this thing. >> Love it, that's great. >> Huawei. >> Yeah. They're all going to be either sending or receiving events, using the cloud event format, to prove interoperability around the specification. So we're just at 0.1, we have some way to go, but that first step was huge just to get agreement, and everybody to the table to agree. So it's been really fun >> And it wasn't easy, it wasn't easy. And he's the peacemaker in the group. (laughs) I'm the troublemaker, he's the peacemaker. >> We have a lot of vocal people in the group, yes. (laughs) >> We're not pointing at anyone. >> No, never. >> Important first step obviously, commonality, and having some sort of standardization kind of thinking. >> Doug: Yes. >> Yaron: Don't use the standard word. There are people allergic to that. >> Well yeah, the standard bodies and what not, but in terms of the community work going on, this is super important. What's the impact of that? Obviously it's a small step, but a big step, right? So, what's it going to impact? What's next, what's coming next now that you've got the meta-data, and you've got the interoperability, what's next? >> Well, obviously we need to finish it up, because 0.1 is obviously just the first step. As I said, I think beyond that people are really itching to do function signatures. Because I think if you can get the event format coming in to be somewhat similar, and then you can get portability of moving your function from one platform to another, with hopefully minimal changes from a function signature point of view, you're a long way there towards getting portability for people. And I think that's probably the next step we're going to be looking at. >> What's the technical case from a commercial entity like yourself, who's in business to make money, obviously you have a business to run. As you build out your architecture, where is this going to be applied for you? What's the impact of this project to your product? >> So beyond my strong religion around open APIs, and you've seen the blogs I've written about it, our interest is twofold. First, we're not the market leader, Amazon is the market leader, et cetera. So if we have a better technology, and things are standard, it's easier for customers to move. Second, is we believe in interoperability, closer to the data, closer to where the processing, especially when 5G is going to evolve, and we're going to see bottlenecks between metro locations. Our sales is, go develop in the cloud, and then push it, you know the diesel twin model. This is exactly what we're demonstrating with Acer. You could develop at Acer, our Nuclio functions and deploy in a factory. So it may not be the same platform, it may not be the same serverless framework. So having the ability to run the same code in different frameworks or different platforms is very important. >> And IBM, you're doing a lot of work. OpenWhisk has been something that's gotten a lot of press and notoriety. What's up with you guys and open source? Obviously we see you guys out there doing a lot of studies and a lot content, a lot of coding. What's new over on the IBM side of the house with serverless? >> From my point of view, I think probably the biggest thing is, we're leading the charge in putting OpenWhisk to run on top of Kubernetes. And I think what's interesting about that is we're going to see, probably, some changes to Kubernetes need to be made to get the better performance that we need. Because when OpenWhisk runs vanilla on top of, say run C, or the docker stuff, we have a lot more freedom there. Pausing containers, stuff like that. Stuff you can't do in Kubernetes. We're probably going to see some more pressure on Kubernetes to add some more features, to get the kind of performance numbers we need going forward. >> And scale too, is important to understand. I was just talking about the keynotes earlier with another guest, and Cern is up there. They have a thousand nodes, it's not massive numbers yet, at scale, I mean Amazon are the big clouds, you guys have clouds. You've got a lot of nodes, so it's a lot more scale going on in the cloud as Kubernetes starts to get it's footing. >> Doug: Yep. >> How do you explain Kubernetes, how do both of you guys explain Kubernetes to the IT transformation group out there, that's going cloud operations. >> So what we've seen, because we're also selling an appliance, a full integrated solution, people, in the enterprise, they don't necessarily want to understand low level of Kubernetes. And actually serverless is a nice way for doing that. If you look at the new Nuclio dashboard, you just go, you write some code, you click deploy, it auto scales, you don't need to think about the underlying cube cut whole, the underlying networking. It's all done there for you. And I think, what you see in the trend in the industry, some people call it serverless, some people call it other things, is more and more abstractions, where users will deploy code, will deploy containers, and some frameworks underneath will deal with the high availability, elasticity, all that. I think that's what enterprise customers are looking for. Not everyone is eBay, and Google, and Netflix. >> John: Your thoughts? >> What I think is interesting, I agree with what you said, but I think it's interesting is you actually have a wider range of people, right. You have some people who think Kubernetes, as you said, nice abstraction layer, you don't have to get into the nitty gritty if you don't need to. But Kubernetes does allow you to get under the covers and twiddle those lower level bits if you actually need to. I think that's one of the things that. People who start out with Docker, they like it, it's so simple to use, and it's wonderful, and they love it. But they found it a little bit limiting, because it was too opinionated, or it didn't give you access to things under the covers. Kubernetes, I think, is trying to find that right balance between the two, and I think for the most part they kind of hit it. There's a little bit more of a learning, because it's not quite as user friendly as Docker is. But once you get over that learning hump, all the flexibility it gives you, people seem to really, really, like that. >> What are some of the things that people do under the covers, you mentioned some tweaks here and there. Is it policy based stuff? What's happening under the covers that Kubernetes getting that their groove swing on now. >> There is something called custom resource definition. So for example, when we deploy a Nulio, maybe OpenWhisk or others have it as well. It's essentially, Nuclio becomes another resource that you can actually view when you're running the Kubernetes CLI, or all the other things that manage it's liveliness, et cetera. So those are services that you get for free as a platform. But if you want your function to keep being alive you need to code your functions into the liveliness API, the thing that monitors it staying alive. So you're getting a generic service, but you need to work with it. >> Yeah, actually I'd go one step further with that and abstract it a little. Because obviously Kubernetes has a lot of knobs you can turn, a lot more than other platforms, like Docker has. But I think, for me the biggest benefit of Kubernetes is the plugability. Custom resource definitions, one of them. Ripping out schedulers, or whatever controllers you want, and replace it with your own. That kind of flexibility to say, I don't have to leave the entire Kubernetes world just to run my own scheduler, or write the infrastructure around it, I can plug in my own. That's the kind of flexibility people seem to really, really like. That way they don't feel locked in, they can still play with part of the ecosystem, but get the flexibility and customization they need. >> Awesome, great commentary there. I want to get your thoughts on KubeCon 2018 Europe, for CNCF. Continuing to see growth in CNCF, fantastic to see. As the boat gets full of people, you've got to be the peacemaker if you're co-chair. As people want to start getting their claws into the projects, this imbalance on the community side, are you guys happy with the direction, obviously the success, and the visibility is increased. What's your take on the show here? What are you guys doing? What's going on around the event for you guys. >> So it only started today, but my impression, comparing it with the previous show in the U.S. There are a lot more decision makers here. I don't know if it's the European culture of not funding every student to every show, or just the maturity of the ecosystem. But that's something I've noticed, the discussions I had with decision makers. and they're also not everyone, like in the U.S.A. everyone wants to build it their own way. People here think about operationalizing solutions, so sometimes you need to take something that someone else already built and test. >> And what's the conversations like, that you're having? Is it architecture? Is it deploying production workloads? >> So for us it's a lot about use cases, because we're doing things in a very different way. We're doing some nice demos on how, we're running real-time analytics with the sample database as the core, and we're showing how it's equivalent to another solution that they may build. And that immediately clicks. The other aspect is really, there is so much technology, but we need someone to wrap it up for us as a package solution. >> Doug, your thoughts. First of all I love your shirt, it says code with all the words in the community. >> Doug: Yeah, it's one of my favorite shirts. I like it. >> Love that shirt. I'm just looking at it like, all these questions are popping in my head. What's your plan at the show here? What's your goal, what are you guys doing, what conversations are you hearing in the hallways? >> Well, obviously being from IBM, we just promote IBM as much as we can. But beyond that, really talk about interoperability around what we're doing here, and make sure people understand that we're not here to necessarily sell our products, which we obviously want to do. We want to make sure that we do it in a way that gives people choice. And that's why we have the serverless working group, the cloud events spec. It's all about giving everybody the choice to move from one platform to another, to get their job done. As much as we want people to buy our stuff, if the customer isn't happy in getting what they need, then we're all going to lose. >> And these projects are super important to get the solidarity around these, quote, standards. >> And just to follow on your previous question about the conference, and stuff that we'd like. Obviously it's great that it's growing so much, but what I really like about this conference, beyond some other ones that I've seen is, a lot of the other ones tend to have more marketing flair to them. And obviously there's a little bit of that here, people are promoting their stuff, but I love the fact that most of the stuff that I'm doing here aren't in the sessions. Because the sessions are great and interesting, but it's the hallway chatter, and interacting with people face to face, and not just to meet them, to actually have real technical, deep discussion with them, here at the conference, because everybody's here you can do that much better face to face than you can over a Zoom call, or something else. The productivity from that level is just astronomical, I love it. >> Yeah, I totally agree. And one thing I would add, just my observation, interviews in the hallways, is that we're living, and we talk about this on the Cube all the time, a modern software architectures here. And it's got some visibility around it, it's not filled in yet, but I think there's clear visibility. Cloud, micro-service, interoperability, portability, pretty clear. And I think people are engaged, people are excited. So you have the progressive new guard coming in, on board. Great job. Thanks for coming on the cube, we appreciate that. >> Thank you. >> Thank you. >> Iguazio and IBM, here on the Cube, breaking down KubeCon 2018 Europe. More live coverage, stay with us, we'll be right back after this short break. (electronic music)

(upbeat music) >> Narrator: Live from Los Angeles, it's theCUBE, covering Open Source Summit North America 2017, brought to you by The Linux Foundation and Red Hat. >> Hello there and welcome to our special exclusive SiliconANGLE Media CUBE coverage here in Los Angeles, California, for the Open Source Summit North America. I'm John Furrier, my co-host, Stu Miniman, for the two days of wall-to-wall coverage, this is day two of our coverage of what's going on in the Open Source world as the Linux Foundation consolidates their shows into a big tent event. This is the inaugural event of now consolidated, a bunch of little shows come together. This is the big show where the Linux Foundation brings their entire communities together to talk and cross-pollinate with Jim Zemlin, the Executive Director, as they outline that. Stu, we're in our kickoff of day two, we're going to do some analysis and commentary, but before we start I want to get your thoughts on just day one. Yesterday we had a lot of guests, a lot of activities going on at night, we kind of divided and conquered. What did you find out? >> Yeah so John you'd done some coverage of LinuxCon a couple of years ago, it's my first time coming to this show. We do a lot of Open Source coverage with theCUBE's over the years, so coming in it was like, okay, what are we going to be talking about, what's the vibe? And being a big tent event, you know, I was a little surprised to see, I mean, the conversation's the same that we've been hearing the last year. Kubernetes, kind of the big wave that's coming in, not just in Open Source, but really the conversation in cloud, and really was kind of the top issue that kind of containerization, the new way of architecting things, you know, Linux absolutely is down there underneath, and majorly important but, you know, it seems to be that rallying around everything Kubernetes. MesosCon's right next door, and we said two years ago you never would have thought that, Kubernetes, that Mesos would be saying, you know, the best place to run Kubernetes is on DCOS. You know, it was the container wars, the orchestration wars, all those things. Kubernetes really leading the charge there, and it really fed into a lot of the conversations we had here. And in our conversations, like with Christine Corbett, and in some of the keynotes this morning, really talking about the power of collaboration, community, you know, stuff like that, we were passionate about John. >> Yeah, I mean, Stu, here's my take on the big story coming out of L.A. for this event. And I think the top line story is this. The Open Source community has had so much success going in the early days and depending which generation you want to call it, you know, we're a little bit older, old school, maybe fourth generation, you can argue the point but here's the bottom line. The big story is that the Linux Foundation, Linux apps, are everywhere, it's a global standard, it is happening. And the scale of which the growth that's going to be coming is unprecedented, and I think for the first time in the history of the computer industry, you're seeing a pause. You're seeing a moment of excitement from the executive director, the Linux Foundation, the board members, and the participants in the community who are realizing, holy shit, this is going to grow very huge. And Open Source is going to go to a whole 'nother growth level, it's going to be exponential in scale, and you're going to see some blitzscaling going on, as Jerry Chen at Greylock and Reid Hoffman talk about. And that's going to change the nature of the participation. You're going to start to see new accelerated things, certification, the role of the foundation certainly has always been to serve the sustainable communities of Open Source. Their role will change as stewards of Open Source, the responsibility and the reliance on the Open Source software will continue to grow, and I think that scale phenomenon of Open Source is, potentially, might be the biggest wave of all, Stu, and I think some people are going to be washed like driftwood and some people are going to thrive and survive. >> You know, it's interesting, we look back at Linux, and Linux took a long time, you know, more than a decade, to really kind of gain mainstream adoption. You know, Red Hat, of course came out of with kind of the leadership and the dollars, but Linux was the foundation for everything being built today. There would be no Google without Linux. There would be no Amazon as we know it today without Linux. And I really liked, I think it was strong resonance, everybody's a little surprised, Joseph Gordon-Levitt in the keynote this morning, someone that we know, you know, from the movies, and we're here in L.A., they're like, oh great, they brought an actor. Well, he's actually pretty passionate. He has this website hitrecord.org, where they do, you know, collaboration, and it's people that are drawing and creating music and creating little clips and everything and they said how a community can help build on what they're doing. He said it's about community, fair compensation, and collaborating, rather than just socializing and sharing or any of those things. And something we've talked a lot is, what is the translation of participating in the community translate into dollars, translate into value. I know it's something you're really passionate about. >> Yeah, Stu, this is again, the big story is the growth. But let's unpack that a little bit. Open Source has always been about sharing, it's always been about community, it's been about innovation, freedom, they called them radicals in the early days but now they got to grow, flexibility, and execution. Here's the bottom line. The leadership of the Open Source is going to morph radically. Look at the program here. You got inclusion, you got a little politics, not like politics of open source, politics of cultural shaping with Christine Corbett Morgan, so she's talking about that, it's very relevant. You have Dan Lyons coming in, talking about the programmer culture, you have the actor coming in talking about collective intelligence. I believe that there's going to be a new way of how people are going to be compensated, how participation's going to scale and this comes down to some key tell tale signs. One, a new generation's coming into the Open Source world, this younger generation. They love Serverless, the love DevOps, because they don't want to deal with the infrastructure. So all the old folks, guys like our age, and gals, they have to provide leadership. I talked with Sam Ramji about this in detail, about how some of these stewards in the community have to step up and be leaders in a new way of governing because as the onboarding of more source code, more projects with IOT, with cloud, you're going to see a new generation of young developers that quite frankly are going to want to run fast, run faster, and they don't want to deal with networking, they don't want to, they want serverless, they want true programmable infrastructure, and that's going to potentially cause some changes, maybe at the leadership level but also how they run things. So, I think, Stu, this is something that we're watching as a big wave. >> Yeah, and it's funny because, we always talk, I'd love to be able to extract a way, even virtualization, oh, we're going to make it real simple, you don't have to worry it anymore, well, you know, John, we got some more interviews today, you know. Networking, storage, these things just don't magically, fairy dust, everything works really well, you know. Data has gravity, networking has lots of challenges we have to worry about. Open Source is now infused into all of these environments. Really helping to build those distributed architectures. We had a number of interviews yesterday talking about, these things are not easy, these are tough challenges. You know, even you talk to people and say, "Kubernetes is awesome," sure is not simple, it is not easy to crawl out. >> They've not graduated any projects out of the CNCF yet, talking to Chris yesterday, the COO, he said, "look, we haven't even graduated anything out of," but this is the point, Stu. Kubernetes is a tell sign, that's not fully-baked yet, it's an under-the-hood feature. Serverless, which I love the name and hate it at the same time because there's servers out there. The notion is that the due developers don't want a provision hardware, to them they just want a resource pool, so serverless is a good trend. The name is kind of weak in my opinion, but I kind of love it and hate it at the same time, I mean. >> John, it's just like cloud was 10 years ago. >> What do you think of Serverless, Stu? I mean bottom line is that how could you not like Serverless because as a developer you're just programming infrastructure as code. >> Right, absolutely, I want to be able to use things in a much more granular format, I want to be able to when I'm not using it not pay for it, it really fits into that environment. Something of course, with this show we're talking about is today, you say Serverless, I think AWS Lambda. The proprietary offering, how does something like Kubernetes fit into that? There's containers underneath, but there are a few different Open Source versions that functions as a service. There's Open FaaS, there's OpenWhisk, there's a couple of others, so how will I be able to take what we were liking about containers in general and Kubernetes specifically, that I can work across a number of environments to make sure that I'm not, John, I'm going to say the word, locked in, to a certain provider or a certain piece of the ecosystem. >> Well, Open Source is so robust right now. Again, 10% of the original ideas can be written in code that could be part of the 90% Open Source base code base. Jim Zemlin, the executive director called that the Code Sandwich. But the bottom line in my opinion, Stu, and you were just pointing it out is that the leadership has to scale. And I think one of the things that came up in some of my hallway conversations last night, talking to some folks who have been early on in Open Source, in the old days you had to hate someone, there was an enemy. There was Microsoft, and now they're on board. There was the big proprietary main mini-computer guys, the proprietary operating systems, they were the enemy. Who's the enemy now? The enemy is slowness, right? So, kind of the fundamental question is, Open Source doesn't have that enemy anymore, it's the standard. So the question is what is going to motivate the organizations? To me, I think it's speed. Speed is the new normal, scale is the new normal. Slowness and silos will be the enemy. >> Absolutely, John. It's something I've heard at a number of events we've been at recently, companies' number one thing is not cost, it's speed, and one of the reasons that so many companies work on, contribute to Open Source is to help them with that speed. They can't wait for the turn of the crank from the old software beast, or oh gosh, there are some chips or hardware involved in that? Open Source, I want to be able to contribute to the code, work on the code, ship it, move faster. >> And the other thing that came up yesterday, I want to get your thoughts and reaction to, is do you have a fashion model going on here? Never fight fashion, as we say, a good marketer would say. You have CNCF is very fashionable right now. But there's blogging and tackling projects that have been around for a while, like the networking piece. These are stable, great projects. They just don't have the pomp and circumstance as CNCF have. So, the balance of being trendy is an issue now for these Open Source communities. No one wants to work on a project that's boring but the relevance is important. So how do you react to that, Stu, because this is now a dynamic, it's kind of been there for a while, but now with the plethora of projects out there, are you nervous that fashion, fashionable trendy projects like CNCF, might suck all the option out of the governance? >> No, John, I mean, from a press and a marketing standpoint they get the attention, but I think that the stats really prove out, there's so many projects out there. Everybody's contributing to a lot of them, but it is something the developers should think about. We did an interview of a company, I remember years back, said, "how do you get the best people "and how do they choose what to do?" "Oh, whatever they feel is good." And I'm like, well, come on, you got to put a little bit of a business guidance on that to make sure what's going to help your business, what's going to help your career, if you're an individual contributing to this. There are plenty of options out there, both for starting new things as well as contributing to the big ones out there. And I liked what I was hearing from the Linux Foundation as to how they're going to give some governance to companies as to the health, that whole CHAOSS that they rolled out, talk about the health and the circular maintenance of things out there, but you know, so much activity. Kubernetes by no means is taking all of the attention, it just happens to be the current hotness. >> Well, there's some key under-the-hood details that are being worked on, that's the exciting part. Linux is a standard, it is powering. Most of the apps that are written are essential Linux apps if you look at the OS underneath. And again, the apps, again, the DevOps mindset is here, and now it's scaling and things like Serverless are going to be more greatness for developers, certainly as companies like Google, IBM, and others come in with real code and share and collaborate, a lot of people can participate in the greatness of Open Source, and I think that's, the future is bright for Linux and the Open Source Summit community. Stu, day two continues, live coverage here in Los Angeles. This is theCUBE, I'm John Furrier, Stu Miniman. Coverage of the Open Source Summit North America, in Los Angeles. We'll be right back with more after this short break. (upbeat music)