>> Live from Barcelona, Spain, it's the Cube, covering KubeCon CloudNativeCon Europe 2019. Brought to you by Red Hat, the Cloud Native Computing Foundation, and Ecosystem Partners. >> Welcome back, this is theCube getting towards the end of two days live wall-to-wall coverage here at KubeCon, CloudNativeCon 2019 in Barcelona. I'm Stu Miniman, my co-host for this week has been Corey Quinn and happy to have on one of our hosts for this week from the Cloud Native Computing Foundation, Dee Kumar, the Vice President of Marketing, also helps with developer relations. Dee, welcome back to the program. >> Thanks for having me. >> And thank you for having us. We've been having a great time this week, a lot of buzz, a lot of people and obviously always a lot of enthusiasm at the show here. Thanks so much. Alright, so your team has been super busy. I've talked with a lot of them leading up to the show. >> That's right. >> Anybody that knows any show of this kind of magnitude know we're usually pretty exhausted before we get on planes and change all the time zones. So, you know, thank you for holding strong. Give us a little bit about, you know, when we talk marketing, you have a big annual report that came out recently from 2018. Give us some of the highlights of some of the things you've been seeing. >> Yeah, sure. Like you mentioned, you're seeing all the excitement and buzz here so this is our largest open-source developer conference, when compared to the last year we did in Copenhagen. So we have close to 8,000 attendees so we're really excited about that. And you're absolutely right, with that comes, we're so exhausted, but we really appreciate. I think the reason the conference has been so successful is primarily just because of the community engagement, which I highlight in the annual report. So it's a combination of our community, which is the developers, the contributors, also our end users, and the third significant portion of our ecosystem is our members. So we recently just announced that CNCF has crossed over 400 members, our end user community is growing, I think Sheryl mentioned this morning in the keynote, we have about 81 end users and this is phenomenal because end of the day, end users are companies who are not commercializing Cloud Native, but essentially they're using these products or technologies internally, so they are essentially the guinea pig of Cloud Native technologies and it's really important to learn from them. >> Well Dee, and actually it's interesting, you know, celebrating the five years of Kubernetes here, I happened to talk to a couple of the OG's of the community, Joe Beta, Tim Hawkin and Gabe Monroy. And I made a comment to Joe, and I'm like, "Well Google started it, but they brought in the Ecosync and pulled in a lot of other vendors too, it's people. And Gabe said, he's like "yeah, I started Deis and I was one of the people >> Absolutely. >> that joined in." So, we said this community is, it's people more than it's just the collection of the logos on the slides. >> Absolutely, I completely agree. And the other thing I also want to point out is a neutral home, like CNCF, it definitely increases contributions. And the reason I say that is, having a neutral home helps the community in terms of engaging and what is really interesting again, going back to the annual report is Google had a leadership role and most of the contributors were from Google, and now with having a neutral home, I think Google has done a phenomenal job to make sure that the contributors are not just limited to Google. And we're seeing all the other companies participating. We're also seeing a new little graph of independent contributors, who are essentially not associated with any companies and they've been again, very active with their comments or their engagement with overall, in terms of, not just limiting to Kubernetes, but all the other CNCF projects. >> So, this is sort of a situation of being a victim of your own success to some extent, but I've mentioned a couple of times today with various other guests, that this could almost be called a conference about Kubernetes and friends, where it feels like that single project casts an awfully long shadow, when you talk to someone who's vaguely familiar with the CNCF, it's "Oh you mean the Kubernetes people?" "Cool, we're on the same page." How do you, I guess from a marketing perspective begin to move out from under that shadow and become something that is more than a single project foundation? >> Yeah, that's a great question, and the way we are doing that is, I think, Kubernetes has become an economic powerhouse essentially, and what it has done is, it's allowed for other start-ups and other companies to come in and start creating new projects and technologies built around Kubernetes, so essentially, now, you're no longer talking about one single project. It's no longer limited to containers or orchestration, or just micro-services, which was the conversation 3 years ago at KubeCon, and today, what you will see is, it's about talking about the ecosystem. So, the way, from a marketing perspective, and it's actually the reality as well, is Kubernetes has now led to other growing projects, it's actually helped other developers come onboard, so now we are seeing a lot more co-ord, a lot more contributions, and now, CNCF has actually become a home to 35+ projects. So when it was founded, we had about 4 projects, and now it's just grown significantly and I think Kubernetes was the anchor tannin, but now we're just talking about the ecosystem as a whole. >> Dee, I'm wondering if it might be too early for this, but do you have a way of measuring success if I'm someone that has rolled out Kubernetes and some of the associated projects? When I talked to the early Kubernetes people, it's like, Kubernetes itself is just an enabler, and it's what we can do with it and all the pieces that go with it, so I don't know that there's spectrums of how are we doing on digital transformation, and it's a little early to say that there's a trillion dollars of benefit from this environm... but, do you have any measure today, or thoughts as to how we can measure the success of everything that comes out of the... >> Yeah, so I think there was Redmont, they published a report last year and it looks like they're in the process of updating, but it is just phenomenal to see, just based on their report, over 50% of fortune 100 companies have started to use Kubernetes in production, and then I would say, more than, I think, to be accurate, 71% of fortune 100 companies are using containers, so I think, right there is a big step forward. Also, if you look at it last year, Kubernetes was the first project to graduate, so one of the ways we also measure, in terms of the success of these projects, is the status that we have within CNCF, and that is completely community driven, so we have a project that's very early stage, it comes in as a sandbox, and then just based on the community growth, it moves onto the next stage, which is incubating, and then, it takes a big deal to graduate, and to actually go to graduation, so we often refer to those stages of the projects to Jeffery Moore, in terms of crossing the chasm. We've talked about that a lot. And again, to answer your question, in terms of how exactly you measure success is just not limited to Kubernetes. We had, this year, a few other projects graduates, we have 6 projects that have graduated within CNCF. >> How do you envision this unfolding in the next 5 years, where you continue to accept projects into the foundation? At some point, you wind up with what will only be described as a sarcastic number of logos on a slide for all of the included projects. How do you effectively get there without having the Cheesecake Factory menu problem of... the short answer is just 'yes', rather than being able to list them off coz no one can hold it all in their head anymore? >> Great question, we're still working on it. We do have a trail map that is a representation of 'where do I get started?', so it's definitely not prescriptive, but it kind of talks about the 10 steps, and it not only talks about it from a technology perspective, but it also talks about processes and people, so we do cover the DevOp, CICD cycle or pipeline. The other thing I would say is, again, we are trying to find other creative ways to move past the logos and landscape, and you're absolutely right, it's now becoming a challenge, but, you know, our members with 400+ members within CNCF. The other way to actually look at it is, back to my earlier point on ecosystems. So one of the areas that we are looking at is, 'okay, now, what next after orchestration?', which is all about Kubernetes is, now I think there's a lot of talks around security, so we're going to be looking at use cases, and also Cloud Native storage is becoming another big theme, so I would say we now have to start thinking more about solutions, solution, the terminology has always existed in the enterprise world for a long time, but it's really interesting to see that come alive on the Cloud Native site. So now we are talking about Kubernetes and then a bunch of other projects. And so now, it's like that whole journey from start to finish, what are the things that I need to be looking at and then, I think we are doing our best with CNCF, which is still a part of a playbook that we're looking to write in terms of how these projects work well together, what are some common use cases or challenges that these projects together can solve. >> So, Dee, we're here at the European show, you think back a few years ago it was a public cloud, there was very much adoption in North America, and starting to proliferate throughout the world. Alibaba is doing well in China and everything. CNCF now does 3 shows a year, you do North America, you do Europe and we've got the one coming up in China. We actually did a segment from our studio previewing the OpenStack Summit, and KubeCon show there, so maybe focus a little bit about Europe. Is there anything about this community and this environment that maybe might surprise people from your annual data? >> Yes, so if you look at... we have a tool called DevStart, it's open source, anyone can look at it, it's very simple to use, and based on that, we kind of monitor, what are the other countries that are active or, not just in terms of consuming, but who are actually contributing. So if you look at it, China is number 2, and therefore our strategy is to have a KubeCon in China. And then from a Euro perspective, I think the third leading country in terms of contributions would be Europe, and therefore, we have strategically figured out where do we want to host our KubeCon, and in terms of our overall strategy, we're pretty much anchoring to those 3 regions, which is North America, Europe as well as China. And, the other thing that we are also looking at is, we want to expand our growth in Europe as well, and now we have seen the excitement here at our KubeCon Barcelona, so we are looking to offer some new programs, or, I would say, new event types outside of KubeCon. Kind of you want to look at it as mini KubeCons, and so those would explore more in terms of different cities in Europe, different cities in other emerging markets as well. So that's still in the works. We're really excited to have, I would say 2 new event types that we're exploring, to really get the community to run and drive these events forward as well, outside of their participation in KubeCon because, oftentimes, I hear that a developer would love to be here, but due to other commitments, or, their not able to travel to Europe, so we really want to bring these events local to where they are, so that's essentially a plan for the next 5 years. >> It's fascinating hearing you describe this, because, everything you're saying aligns perfectly with what you'd expect from a typical company looking to wind up, building adoption, building footprints etc., Only, you're a foundation. Your fundamental goal at the end of it is user engagement, of people continuing to participate in the community, it doesn't turn into a 'and now, buy stuff', the only thing you have for sale here that I've noticed is a T-shirt, there's no... Okay, you also have other swag as well, not the important part of the story, I'm curious though, as far as, as you wind up putting all of this together, you have a corporate background yourself, was that a difficult transition to navigate, as far as, getting away from getting people to put money in towards something in the traditional sense, and more towards getting involved in a larger ecosystem and community. >> That was a big transition for me, just having worked on the classic B2B commercial software side, which is my background, and coming in here, I was just blown away with how people are volunteering their time and this is not where they're getting compensated for their time, it's purely based on passion, motivation and, when I've talked to some key community organizers or leaders who have done this for a while, one of the things that has had an impact on me is just the strong core values that the communities exhibit, and I think it's just based on that, the way they take a project and then they form a working group, and then there are special interest groups that get formed, and there is a whole process, actually, under the hood that takes a project from where Kubernetes was a few years ago, and where it is today, and I think it's just amazing to see that it's no longer corporate driven, but it's more how communities have come together, and it's also a great way to be here. Oftentimes... gone are the days where you try to set up a meeting, people look forward to being at KubeCon and this is where we actually get to meet face-to-face, so it's truly becoming a networking event as well, and to build these strong relationships. >> It goes even beyond just users, I mean, calling this a user conference would not... it would be doing it a bit of disservice. You have an expo hall full of companies that are more or less, in some cases, sworn enemies from one another, all coexisting peacefully, I have seen no fist-fights in the 2 days that we've been here, and it's fascinating watching a community effort get corporate decision makers and stakeholders involved in this, and it seems that everyone we've spoken to has been having a good time, everyone has been friendly, there's not that thousand yard stare where people are depressed that you see in so many other events, it's just something I've never experienced before. >> You know, that's a really amazing thing that I'm experiencing as well. And also, when we do these talks, we really make it a point to make sure that it's not a vendor pitch, and I'm not being the cop from CNCF policing everyone, and trying to tell them that, 'hey, you can't have a vendor pitch', but what I'm finding is, even vendors, just did a silverless talk with AWS, and he's a great speaker, and when he and I were working on the content, he in fact was, "you know, you're putting on that hat", and he's like, "I don't want to talk about AWS, I really want to make sure that we talk about the underlying technology, focusing on the projects, and then we can always build on top, the commercial aspect of it, and that's the job for the vendor. So, I think it's really great collaboration to see how even vendors put on the hat of saying, 'I'm not here to represent my products, or my thing', and of course they're here to source leads and stuff, but at the end of the day, the underlying common protocol that's already just established without having explicit guidelines saying, 'this is what you need to be following or doing', it's just like an implicit understanding. Everyone is here to promote the community, to work with the community, and again, I think I really want to emphasize on the point that people are very welcoming to this concept of a neutral home, and that really had helped with this implicit understanding of the communities knowing that it's not about a vendor pitch and you really want to think about a project or a technology and how to really use that project, and what are the use cases. >> It's very clear, that message has resonated well. >> Dee, thank you. We've covered a lot of ground, we want to give you the final word, anything else? We've covered the event, we've covered potential little things and the annual report. Any last words you have for us that you want people to take away? >> Not really, I think, like I said, it's the community that's doing the great work. CNCF has been the enabler to bring these communities together. We're also looking at creating a project journey it terms of how these projects come into CNCF, and how CNCF works with the communities, and how the project kind of goes through different stages. Yeah, so there are a lot of great things to come, and looking forward to it. >> Alright, well, Dee, thank you so much for all of the updates, and a big thank you, actually, to the whole CNCF team for all they've done to put this together. We really appreciate the partnership here. For Corey Quinn, I'm Stu Miniman. Back to wrap 2 days, live coverage, here at KubeCon, Cloud Native Con 2019, Thanks for watching the Cube. >> Thank you.

>> Announcer: From the SiliconANGLE Media Office, in Boston, Massachusetts. It's theCUBE. (upbeat music) >> Hi everyone, I'm Sam Kahane with senior WIKIBon analyst, Stu Miniman and you're watching theCUBE. In 10 minutes or less, we're going to teach you everything you need to know about DockerCon 2017. Here's the agenda, we're going to start with the basics, what is DockerCon and why you should care. Then we're going to discuss the maturity of the container ecosystem. After that, we're going to talk about Docker as a business. And then we're going to finish by talking about the users, and what they should look for at the show. So real excited to have Stu Miniman with me, he is our DockerCon expert. Stu, how many years have you been at the show? >> So Sam, it's the fourth year of DockerCon. It will be my third show, also the third year we've had theCUBE. I was at the first one in 2014. Super exciting show. Everybody got all hyped up for a couple of years, we just Docker, Docker, Docker everything. And then from the second year on, we've done the North American show. Maybe we'll do the Copenhagen show later this year because Docker will be back in Europe. But super exciting, going to do two full days of live coverage from Austin, Texas and you'll be joining us. >> I will be, and who will you be hosting with? >> So John Furrier will be there. John and I host a lot of the open source shows. John's known DockerCon since that first 2014. It was actually at a Red Hat Summit, we interviewed Solomon Hykes, who's the founder of Docker, the company. And so much history we can't get through all of it in the, under 10 minutes, but super excited for the container ecosystem, everything that's going on. It's still been a bubbling and exciting area. >> So you've seen this show grow. Let's talk a little bit about the maturity of the Docker Ecosystem. >> Yeah so, as you said, there's so much history here Sam, there's the little D, Docker, which is the open-source project itself. And big D, the company. So let's talk about containers in the ecosystem. So while Docker didn't create containers, Docker is the company that really has democratized it for the world. So reminds me a lot of VMware. So VMware didn't come up with the idea for virtual machines, which actually goes back to the mainframe era. But they helped bring it into the PC world. And in the same way, Docker is really taking this container format which had existed in a couple of other operating systems and it takes that Linux container which is how we look at bundling things really at the application layer, making it really simple, usually ties into, a lot of people talking about how microservices fits into it. A lot of these new frameworks are leveraging containers. So containers are maturing. And some of the problems that we've had in the past with infrastructure, how does it work with infrastructure? How does things like storage and networking work? The community in the container world have been knocking those down. And Docker, the company has also been knocking those down. So containers are definitely maturing, it's definitely something that in many ways we've gone through the peak of hype, through a little bit of the trough of disillusionment, if you follow the normal hype curve. And today, containers are being used in a lot of ways, we still want to see is how many companies are actually fully using containers in production environments. Is it all stateless storage? Is there stateful storage? There's lots of start-ups, lots of big companies, everything from, heck, Microsoft just bought a big company, Deis. Which if you look them up, oh, it's in the container ecosystem. We'll talk about the competitive piece at the end. Every cloud today is talking about containers in there. So, containers are here to stay, they're an underlying foundational piece of what's happening kind of in the infrastructure and application world. And so, DockerCon, is really the center place for a lot of us to gather and talk about that. >> Great, so this is Docker show. How is Docker doing as a business? >> It's interesting, we had a couple of, it's been some struggles over the last couple of years as to, reseparating containers and Docker the open source, versus Docker the company. Last year, there was a little bit of air sucked out of the ecosystem when Docker said, oh well we have this way to manage lots of containers called Docker Swarm. Docker Swarm's great, it's pretty simple, it works well. But when Docker said, when you buy our solution, it comes bundled with it. Also, people were saying, well, I might prefer to use Mesos, I might want to do Kubernetes. We've covered Kubernetes, really cool stuff, with CubeCon show that we've done, itself. So Docker's like, well, the old term was batteries are included but swappable. But the community kind of bristled at a lot of that. What I like is that Docker has done some repackaging. They now have two flavors that you can get of the Docker solution. There's Docker CE, which is the community edition, which is the free open source. Releases are coming like every six weeks, that could be tough for a lot of people. And how much? Do I just take it and use it? So Docker understands that they want to bring this to the enterprise, so they created the EE, or enterprise edition, which has release cycles that fits with the enterprise more. It has really the service and support that you kind of expect there. It reminds me lot of anybody that's been in this space. You look at what happened in the Linux world, you look at what happened with VMware, and their maturation over time. And we see Docker kind of moving in that general direction, but it still remains to be seen. We go to the show, last year, Docker Swarm, some people got frustrated as to what Docker put together. What will Docker announce this year? Will they take on a piece of the ecosystem where people are taking dollars? Or where are the dollars and how the customer consume, are some of the big questions that we look at. >> What are the competitive dynamics here? >> Yeah, so Sam, I mentioned containers are fitting in everywhere. Every note that I get from cloud players here, it's kind of assumed that there's containers underneath. When you go to Amazon show, Google show, Microsoft show, containers are there and Docker is in a big way. Most of the cloud services that are put together, have Docker, there's great partnership. Docker with Amazon. Microsoft actually created containers for Microsoft. People were like, oh my god. I looked at it and said, this is probably going to take three years. Microsoft moved faster than I ever thought they would, to be able to make, I can have Linux containers, and I can have the Windows containers, and I can actually manage them together. They're not swappable, they're still two different formats but Docker supports, has support and has worked on both of those. It was amazing to see. Google is greatly involved in containers and Docker's there. And of course, I can do on-prem solutions also. Competitively, the big question is, who makes money? Because all of these cloud players, whether you're IBM, Amazon, there's pieces of the pie that they're going to take. So where can Docker actually get a footprint, that big D Docker? Because there's lots of companies that I talk to that say, oh yeah, we're using containers and I use the Docker format. But maybe I'm only using the registry from Docker. Or, oh wait, IBM has a registry, Microsoft does registries, everybody has that. Where am I actually coming to Docker, the company? And I think as we see kind of that CE and EE that I mentioned earlier, play out, Docker does have an opportunity there, but it's an interesting competitive dynamic. There's always that given push from the ecosystem as to Docker built a big ecosystem and did they eat parts of it? AHLA, Intel in the past, even VMware has done some of that. Or can they live amongst that and make a good living because they're UNICORE? I think they were over a billion dollar in valuation when they had less than 10 million dollars in revenue, which is just one of those astronomical Valley things that you look at. But containers are all over the globe, huge adoption of the project itself. And it's going to be great next week to get the pulse from everybody as to where they are, where they're winning, and what customers are doing really cool things with that they couldn't do before they had containers in general and Docker specifically. >> Yeah, so speaking of the show, it's going to be the biggest DockerCon to date, I'm very excited for that. The users and the community that's at the event, what should they look for? >> Yeah so, the first thing is, let's look to our peers. What customers are going to get on stage? Are these, one from the Valley? Or kind of the web 2.0 companies, that you're like, oh yeah, that's interesting but people want to see the financial services companies. People want to see retail companies. Where are they using containers? Were they using it in production? What kind of use cases are they doing? How have they rewritten, changed their businesses to take advantage of this? Because the business can only move as fast as their applications are, and Docker is one of those things that can really help accelerate that pace of change and move people along. Hearing from users, hearing from that update, hearing that Docker is doing well, understand what their future is, understand where they fit into the ecosystem, I think is one things that we want to kind of take away from that show. >> Right. And if you're not at the show, you can watch theCUBE. So we'll be broadcasting on Tuesday and Wednesday. We have some great guests coming on from Cisco, Canonical, Red Hat, Scality, Logz.io, AppLariat, even more companies. Any interviews you're really excited for? >> Yeah so, first of all, some of the Docker executives, we get Solomon Hykes on. Is Solomon the benevolent dictator of the Docker community? You know, or he's the founder of Docker, so he's great. Ben is the CEO of the company. Jerry Chen, is the one who invested in it. And as you mentioned, we've got a bunch of the vendor ecosystem. Big thanks to our sponsors that allow us to broadcast from that show. Hoping to have a few users on. We always get in some of the keynote people, some of the other guests. Any practitioners that are out there, that are willing to tell their story, we always appreciate when they can reach out and talk to us. >> Great Stu, thank you so much. That's all the time we have today. Watch us next week, Tuesday and Wednesday, full days of coverage from DockerCon. And come by theCUBE on Wednesday, we're going to have Franklin Barbecue at 1:00 p.m. (upbeat music)