>>We're back at your storage service. Emil Stan is here. He's the chief commercial officer and chief marketing officer of open line. Thank you, Emil, for coming on the cube. Appreciate your time. >>Thank you, David. Nice. Uh, glad to be here. >>Yeah. So tell us about open line. You're a managed service provider. What's your focus? >>Yeah, we're actually a cloud managed service provider and I do put cloud in front of the managed services because it's not just only the scripts that we manage. We have to manage the clouds as well nowadays. And then unfortunately, everybody only thinks there's one cloud. But's always multiple layers in the cloud. So we have a lot of work in integrating, uh, it where a cloud manages provider in the Netherlands, focusing on, uh, companies who have a head office in the Netherlands, mainly in the, uh, healthcare local government, social housing logistics department. And then in the midsize companies between say 250 to 10,000 office employees. Uh, and that's what we do. We provide them with excellent cloud managed services, uh, as it should be >>Interesting, you know, lot early on in the cloud days, highly regulated industries like healthcare government were somewhat afraid of the cloud. So I'm sure that's one of the ways in which you provide value to your customers is helping them become cloud proficient. Maybe you could talk a little bit more about the value prop to customers. Why do they do business with you? >>Yeah, I think, uh, there are a number of reasons why they do business with us or choose to choose for our managed services provider. Tracy, of course, are looking for stability and continuity, uh, and, and from a cost perspective, predict predictable costs, but nowadays you also have a shortage in personnel and knowledge. So, and it's not always very easy for them to access, uh, those skill sets because most it, people just want to have, uh, a great variety in work, what they are doing, uh, towards, towards the local government, uh, healthcare, social housing. They actually, uh, a sector that, uh, that are really in between embracing the public cloud, but also have a lot of legacy and, and bringing together best of all, worlds is what we do. So we also bring them comfort. We do understand what legacy, uh, needs from a manager's perspective. We also know how to leverage the benefits in the public cloud. Uh, and, uh, I'd say from a marketing perspective, actually, we focus on using an ideal cloud, being a mix of traditional and future based cloud. >>Thank you. I, you know, I'd like to get your perspective on this idea of as a service and the, as a service economy that we often talk about on the cube. I mean, you work with a lot of different companies. We talked about some of the industries and, and increasingly it seems like organizations are focused more on outcomes, continuous value delivery via, you know, suites of services and, and they're leaning into platforms versus one off product offerings, you know, do you see that? How do you see your customers reacting to this as a service trend? >>Yeah. Uh, to be honest, sometimes it makes it more complex because services like, look at your Android or iPhone, you can buy apps, uh, and download apps the way you went to. So they have a lot of apps, but how do you integrate it into one excellent workflow, something that works for you, David or works for me? Uh, so the difficulty, some sometimes lies in, uh, the easy accessibility that you have to those solutions, but nobody takes into account that they're all part of a chain or workflow supply chain, uh, and, and, uh, they're being hyped as well. So what, we also have a lot of time in, in, in, in, in managing our customers, is that the tremendous feature push feature push that there is from technology providers, SaaS providers. Whereas if you provide 10 features, you only need one or two, uh, but the other eight are very distracting from your prime core business. Uh, so there's a natural way in that people are embracing, uh, SA solutions, embracing cloud solutions. Uh, but what's not taken into account as much is that we love to see it the way that you integrate all those solutions to it's something that's workable for the person that's actually using them. And it's seldomly that somebody is only using one solution. There's always a chain of solutions. Um, so yeah, there are a lot of opportunities, but also a lot of challenges for us, but also for our customers. >>Do you see that trend toward, as a service continuing, or do you actually see based on what you're just saying that pendulum, you know, swinging back and forth, somebody comes out with a new sort of feature product and that, you know, changes the dynamic or do you see as a service really having legs? >>Ah, that's very, very good question, David, because that's something that's keeps our busy all the time. We do see a trend in as a service looking at, uh, talk about pure later on. We also use pure as a service more or less. Yeah. And it really helps us. Uh, but you see, uh, um, that sometimes people make a step too, too fast, too quick, not well thought of, and then you see what they call sort of cloud repatriation, tend that people go back to what they're doing and then they stop innovating or stop leveraging. The possibilities are actually there. Uh, so from a consultancy guidance and architecture point of view, we try to help them as much possible to think in a SA thought, but just don't use the, cloud's just another data center. Eh, and so it's all about managing the maturity on our side, but on our customer side as well. >>So I'm interested in how you're sort of your philosophy and it relates, I think, in, in, in terms of how you work with pure, but how do you stay tightly in lockstep with, with your customers so that you don't over rotate so that you don't them to over rotate, but then you're not also, you don't wanna be too late to the game. How, how do you manage all that? >>Oh, there's, there's, there's a world of interactions between us and our customers. And so I think a well known, uh, uh, uh, thing that people, the most customer intimacy, that's very important for us to get to know our customers and get to predict which way they're moving. But the, the thing that we add to it is also the ecosystem intimacy. So no, the application and services landscape, our customers know the primary providers and work with them, uh, to, to, to create something that, that really fits the customers to just not look at from our own silo where a cloud managed service provider that we actually work in the ecosystem with, with, with, with the primary providers. And we have, I think where the average customers, I think we have, uh, uh, uh, in a month we have so much interactions on our operational level and technical levels, strategic level. >>We do bring together our customers also, and to jointly think about what we can do together, what we independently can never reach, but we also involve our customers in defining our own strategy. So we have something we call a customer involvement board. So we present a strategy and today, does it make sense? Eh, this is actually what you need also. So we take a lot of our efforts into our customers and we do also, uh, understand the significant moments of truth. We are now in this, in this broadcast, David there. So you can imagine that at this moment, not thinking go wrong. Uh, if, if, if the internet stops, we have a problem. And now, so we, we actually know that this broadcast is going on for our customers. And we manage that. It's always on, uh, uh, where in the other moments in the week, we might have a little less attention, but this moment we should be there in these moments of truth that we really embraced. We got them well described. Everybody working out line knows what the moment of truth is for our customers. Uh, uh, so we have a big logistics provider. For instance, you does not have to ask us to, uh, have, uh, a higher availability on black Friday or cyber Monday. We know that's the most important part in the year for him or her. Does it answer your question, David? >>Yes. We know as well. You know, when these big, the big game moments you have to be on your top, uh, top of your game. Yeah. Uh, you know, the other thing, a Emil about this as a service approach that I really like is, is it's a lot of it is consumption based and the data doesn't lie, you can see adoption, you know, D daily, weekly, monthly. And so I wonder how you're leveraging pure as a service specifically in what kind of patterns you're seeing in, in, in the adoption, >>Uh, pure as a service for our customers. It's mainly never visible. Uh, we provide storage services, provide storage solutions, storage job is part of a bigger thing of a server of application. Uh, so the real benefits to be honest of, of course, towards our customer, it's all flash, uh, uh, and they have the fast, fastest storage is available. But for ourself, we, uh, we use less resources to manage our storage. We have far more that we have a near to maintenance free storage solution now because we have it as a service and we work closely together with pure. Uh, so, uh, actually the way we treat our customers is the way pure treats us as well. And that's why there's a used click. So the real benefits, uh, uh, how we leverage is it normally we had a bunch of guys managing us storage. Now we only have one and knowing that's a shortage of it, personnel, the other persons can well be, uh, involved in other parts of our services or in other parts of an innovation. So, uh, that's simply great. >>You know, um, my takeaway Emil is that you've made infrastructure, at least, least the storage infrastructure, invisible to your customers, which is the way it should be. You didn't have to worry about it. And you've, you've also attacked the, the labor problem. You're not, you know, provisioning lungs anymore, or, you know, tuning the storage, you know, with, with arms and legs. So that's huge. So that gets me into the next topic, which is business transformation. That, that means that I can now start to attack the operational model. So I've got a different it model. Now I'm not managing infrastructure same way. So I have to shift those resources. And I'm presuming that it's a bus now becomes a business transformation discussion. How are you seeing your customers shift those resources and focus more on their business as a result of this sort of as a service trend? >>I think I do not know if they, they transform their business. Thanks to us. I think that they can more leverage their own business. They have less problems, less maintenance, et cetera, et cetera. But we also add new, uh, certainties to it, like, uh, uh, the, the latest service we we released was imutable storage being the first in the Netherlands offering this thanks to, uh, thanks to the pure technology, but for customers, it takes them to give them a good night rest because, you know, we have some, uh, geopolitical issues in the world. Uh, there's a lot of hacking. People have a lot of ransomware attacks and, and we just give them a good night rest. So from a business transformation, doesn't transform their business. I think that gives them a comfort in running your business, knowing that certain things are well arranged. You don't have to worry about that. We will do that. We'll take it out of your hands and you just go ahead and run your business. Um, so to me, it's not really transformation. It's just using the right opportunities at the right moment. >>The imutable piece is interesting because of course, but speaking of as a service, you know, anybody can go on the dark web and buy ransomware as a service. I mean, as it's, he was seeing the, as a service economy hit, hit everywhere, the good and the, and the not so good. Um, and so I presume that your customers are, are looking at, I imutability as another service capability of the service offering and really rethinking, maybe because of the recent, you know, ransomware attacks, rethinking how they, they approach, uh, business continuance, business resilience, disaster recovery. Do you see that? >>Yep, definitely. Definitely. I, not all of them yet. Imutable storage. So it's like an insurance as well. Yeah. Which you have when you have imutable storage and you have, you have a ransomware attack, at least if you part the data, which never, if data is corrupted, you cannot restore it. If your hardware is broken, you can order new hardware. Every data is corrupted. You cannot order new data. Now we got that safe and well. And so we offer them the possibility to, to do the forensics and free up their, uh, the data without a tremendous loss of time. Uh, but you also see that you raise the new, uh, how do you say, uh, the new baseline for other providers as well? Eh, so there's security of the corporate information security officer, the CIO, they're all fairly happy with that. And they, they, they raise the baseline for others as well. So they can look at other security topics and look from, say a security operation center that now we can really focus on our prime business risks, because from a technical perspective, we got it covered. How can we manage the business risk, uh, which is a combination of people, processes and technology. >>Right. Makes sense. Okay. I'll give you the last word. Uh, talk about your relationship with pure, where you wanna see that, that going in the future. >>Uh, I hope we've be working together for a long time. Uh, I, I ex experienced them very involved. Uh, it's not, we have done the sell and now it's all up to you now. We really closely working together. I know if I talk to my prime marketing, Marcel height is very happy and it looks a little more or less if we work with pure, like we're working with colleagues, not with a supplier, uh, and a customer, uh, and, uh, the whole pure concept is quite fascinating. Uh, I, uh, I had the opportunity to visit San Francisco head office, and they told me to fish in how they launched pure being, if you want to implement it, it had to be on one credit card. The, the, the menu had to be on one credit card, just a simple thought of put that as your big hair, audacious goal to make the simplest, uh, implementable storage available. But for, uh, it gives me the expectation that there will be a lot of more surprises with puring in near future. Uh, and for us as a provider, what we, uh, literally really look forward to is that, that for us, these new developments will not be new migrations. It will be a gradual growth of our services on storage services. Uh, so that's what I expect, and that was what I, and we look forward to. >>Yeah, that's great. Uh, thank you so much, Emil, for coming on the, the cube and, and sharing your thoughts and best of luck to you in the future. >>Thank you. >>You're welcome. Thanks for having me. You're very welcome. Okay. In a moment, I'll be back to give you some closing thoughts on at your storage service. You're watching the cube, the leader in high tech enterprise coverage.

>>When AWS introduced the modern cloud in 2006, many people didn't realize the impact that it would have on the industry, but some did see the future of an as a service economy coming. I mean, SAS offerings came out several years before. And the idea of applying some of these concepts to infrastructure and simplifying deployment and management, you know, kinda looked enticing to a lot of customers and a subscription model, or, but yet a consumption model was seen as a valuable proposition by many customers. Why not apply it to infrastructure? And why should the hyperscalers have all the fun welcome to at your storage service? My name is Dave ante. And as an analyst at the time, I was excited about the, as a service trend early on. And one of the companies that caught my attention back in the beginning of last decade was pure storage. >>Pure not only was delivering cloud- simplicity, but it's no forklift approach to infrastructure was ahead of its time. And that's why we're here today to dig into what's happening with the, as a service trends that we see popping up all over the world today, we're gonna dig into three sessions with noted experts in the field. First pre Darie is the general manager of the digital experience business unit at pure storage. He's gonna join us. And then we bring in Steve McDowell, Steve's a senior analyst for data and storage at more insights and strategy, a well known consultancy and analyst firm. And finally, we close with Amil sta Emil is the chief commercial officer and chief marketing officer at open line, open lines, a managed service provider. They serve the mid-market and Emil's got a very wide observation space. He's gonna share what he's seeing with customers. So sit back and enjoy the show. >>The cloud has popularized many useful concepts in the past decade, working backwards from the customer two pizza teams, a DevOps mindset, the shared responsibility model in security. And of course the shift from CapEx to OPEX and as a service consumption models. The last item is what we're here to talk about today. Pay for consumption is attractive because you're not over provisioning. At least not the way you used to you'd have to buy for peak capacity events, but there are always two sides to every story and well pay for use more closely ties. It consumption to business value procurement teams. Don't always love the uncertainty of the cloud bill each month, but consumption pricing. And as a service models are here to stay in software and hardware. Hello, I'm Dave ante and welcome to at your storage service made possible by pure storage. And with me is Pash DJI. Who's the general manager of the digital experience business unit at pure Pash. Welcome to the program. >>Thanks Dave. Thanks for having me. >>You bet. Okay. We've seen this shift to, as a service, the, as a service economy, subscription models, and this as a service movement have gained real momentum. It's it's clear over the past several years, what's driving this shift. Is it pressure from investors and technology companies that are chasing the all important ARR, their annual recurring revenue stream? Is it customer driven? Give us your insights. >>Well, look, um, I think we'll do some definitional stuff first. I think we often mix the definition of a subscription and a service, but, you know, subscription is, Hey, I can go for pay up front or pay as I go. Service is more about how do I not buy something just by the outcome. So, you know, the concept of delivering storage as a service means, what do you want in storage performance, capacity availability? Like that's what you want. Well, how do you get that without having to worry about the labor of planning capacity management, those labor elements are what's driving it. So I think in the world where you have to do more with less and in a world where security becomes increasingly important, where standardization will allow you to secure your landscape against ransomware and those types of things, those trends are driving the ation of storage and the only way to deliver that is storage as a service. >>So that's, that's good. You maybe thinking about it differently than some of the other companies that I talked to, but so you, you, you've made inroads here pretty big inroads actually, and changed the thinking in enterprise data storage with a huge emphasis on simplicity. That's really pures rayon Detra. How does storage as a service fit into your innovation agenda overall? >>Well, our innovation agenda started, as you mentioned with the simplicity, you know, a decade ago with the evergreen architecture, that architecture was beyond the box. How do you go ahead and say, I can improve performance or capacity as I need it? Well, that's a foundational element to deliver a service because once you have that technology, you can say, oh, you know what? You've subscribed to this performance level. You want to raise your performance level and yes, that'll be a higher dollar per gig or dollar per terabyte. But how do you do that without a data migration? How do you do that with a non disruptive service change? How do you do that with a delivery via a software update, those elements of non disruptive updates. When you think SAS, Salesforce, you don't know when Salesforce doesn't update, you don't know when they're increasing something, adding a new capability just shows up. It's not a disruptive event. So to drive that standardization and sation and service delivery, you need to keep that simplicity of delivery first and foremost, and you can't allow, like, if the goal was, I want to change from this service tier to that service tier and a person needed to show up and do a day data migration, that's kind of useless. You've broken the experience of flexibility for a customer. >>Okay. So I like the Salesforce analogy, but I wanna jump out, do a little side for a second. So I I've gotta, I've gotta make some commitment to pure, right. Some baseline commitment. And if I do, then I can dial up and pay for what I use and I can dial it down. Correct? Correct. Okay. I can't do that with Salesforce. <laugh> right. I could dial up, but then I'm stuck with those licenses. So you have a better model in Salesforce. I would argue. Okay. Yeah, >>I would, I would agree with that. >>Okay. So, and I gotta pay for everything up front anyway. Um, let's go back. I was kind of pushing at you a little bit at my upfront, you know, about, you know, the ARR model, the, the all important, you know, financial metric, but let's talk from the customers standpoint. What are the benefits of consuming storage as a service from your customer's perspective? >>Well, one is when you start your storage journey, do you really know what you need? And I would argue most of the time people are guessing, right? It's like, well, I think I need this. This is the performance I think I need. Or this is the capacity I think I need. And, you know, with the scientific method, you actually deploy something and you're like, do I need more? Do I need less? You find out as you're deploying. So in a storage as a service world, when you have the ability to move up performance levels or move out capacity levels, and you have that flexibility, then you have the ability to just to meet demand as you deploy. And that's the most important element of meeting business needs today. The applications you deploy are not in your control when you're providing storage to your end consumers. >>Yeah. They're gonna want different levels of storage. They're gonna want different performance thresholds. That's kind of a pay, you know, pay for performance type culture, right? You can use HR analogies for it. You pay for performance. You want top talent, you pay for it. You want top storage performance, you pay for it. Um, you don't, you can pay less and you can actually get lower performance, tiers, not everything is a tier one application. And you need the ability to deploy it. But when you start, how do you know the way your end customers are gonna be consuming? Or do you need a dictated upfront? Cause that's infrastructure dictating business inflexibility, and you never want to be in that position. >>I, I got another analogy for you. It's like, you know, we do a lot of hosting at our home and you know, like Thanksgiving, right? And you go to the liquor store and say, okay, what should I get? Should we get red wine? We gotta go white wine. We gotta get some beer. Should I get bubbles? Yeah, I get some bubbles. Cause you don't know what people are gonna have. And so you over provision everything <laugh> and then there's a run on bubbles and you're like, ah, we run outta bubbles. So you just over buy, but there's a liquor store that actually will take it back. So I gotta do business with those guys every time. Cuz it's way more flexible. I can dial up capacity or can dial up performance and dial it back down if I don't use it >>Or you or you're gonna be drinking a lot more the next few weeks. >>Yeah, exactly. Which is the last thing you want. Okay. So let's talk about how pure kind of meets this as a service demand. You've touched upon your, your differentiators from others in the market. Um, you know, love to hear about the momentum. What, what are you seeing out there? >>Yeah. Look, our business is growing well, largely built on, you know, what customers need. Um, specifically where the market is at today is there's a set of folks that are interested in the financial transformation of CapEx to OPEX, where like that definitely exists in the industry around how do I get a pay use model? The next kind of more advanced customer is interested in how do I go ahead and remove labor to deliver storage? And a service gets you there on top of a subscription. The most sophisticated customer says, how do I separate storage production with consumption and production of storage. Being a storage producer should be about standardization. So I could do policy based management. Why is that important? You know, coming back to some of the things I said earlier in the world where ransomware attacks are common, you need the standardized security policies. >>Linux has new vulnerabilities every, every other day, like find 2, 2, 3 critical vulnerabilities a week. How do you stay on top of it? The complexity of staying on top of it should be, look, let's standardize and make it a vendor problem. And assume the vendor's gonna deliver this to me. So that standardization allows you to have business policies that allow you to stay current and modern. I would argue in, you know, the traditional storage and appliance world, you buy something and the day a, the day after you buy it, it's worthless. It's like driving a car off a lot, right? The very next day, the car's not worth what it was when you bought it. Storage is the same way. So how do you ensure that your storage stays current? How do you ensure that it gets like a fine line that gets better, better with age? Well, if you're not buying storage and you're buying a performance SLA, it's up to the vendor to meet that SLA. So it actually never gets worse over time. This is the way you modernize technology and avoid technology debt as a customer. >>Yeah. I mean, just even though words you're using in the way you're thinking about this precaution, I think are, are, are different. Uh, and I love the concept of essentially taking my labor cost and transferring them to pures R and D I mean, that's essentially what you're talking about here. Um, so let's, let's, let's stick with the, the, the tech for a minute. What do you see as new or emerging technologies that are helping accelerate this shift toward the, as a service economy? >>Well, the first thing is I always tell people, you can't deliver a service without monitoring, because if you can't monitor something, how you're gonna know what your, whether you're meeting your service level obligation, right? So everything starts with data monitoring. The next step layering on the technology. Differentiation is if you need to deliver a service level, OB obligation on top of that data monitoring, you need the ability to flexibly, meet whatever performance obligations you have in a tight time window. So supply chain and being able to deliver anywhere becomes important. So if you use the analogy today of how Tesla works or a IOT system works, you have a SaaS management that actually provides instructions that push pushes those instructions and policies to the edge. In Tesla's case, that happens to be the car it'll push software updates to the car. It'll push new map updates to the car, but the car is running independently. >>It's not like if the car becomes disconnected from the internet, it's gonna crash and drive you off the road in the same way. What if you think about storage as something that needs to be wherever your application is? So people think about cloud as a destination. I think that's a fallacy. You have to think about the world in the world in the view of an application, an application needs data, and that data needs to sit in storage wherever that application sits. So for us, the storage system is just an edge device. It can be sitting in your data center, it can be sitting in a Equinix. It can be sitting in hosted, an MSP can run. It can, can even be sitting in the public cloud, but how do you have central monitoring and central management where you can push policies to update all those devices? >>Very similar to an I IOT system. So the technology advantage of doing that means that you can operate anywhere and ensure you have a consistent set of policies, a consistent set of protection, a consistent set of, you know, prevention against ransomware attack, regardless of your application, regardless of, uh, you know, where it sits, regardless of what content in you're on that approach is very similar to the way the T industry has been updating and monitoring edge devices, nest, thermostats, you know, Tesla cars, those types of things. That's the thinking that needs to come to. And that's the foundation on which we built PI as a service. >>So that implies, or at least I infer that you've obviously got control of the experience on Preem, but you're extending that, uh, into AWS, Google Azure, which suggests to me that you have to hide the underlying complexity of the primitives and APIs in that world. And then eventually, actually today, cuz you're treating everything like the edge out to the edge, you know, maybe, maybe mini pure at some point in time. But so I call that super cloud that abstraction layer that floats above all the clouds on-prem and adds that layer of value. And is this singular experience? What you're talking about pushing, you know, policy throughout, is that the right way to think about it and how does this impact the ability to deliver true storage as a service? >>Oh, uh, that's absolutely the right way of thinking about it. The things that you think about from a, an abstraction kind of fall in three buckets, first, you need management. So how do you ensure a consistent management experience creating volumes, deleting volumes, creating buckets, creating files, creating directories, like management of objects and create a consistent API across the entire landscape. The second one is monitoring, how do you measure utilization and performance obligations or capacity obligations or uh, you know, policy violations, wherever you're at. And then the third one is more of a business one, which is procurement because you can't do it independent of procurement. Meaning what happens when you run out, you need to increase your reserve commits. Do you want to go on demand? How do you integrate it into company's procurement models, such that you can say, I can use what I need and any, it's not like every change order is a request of procurement. That's gonna break an as a service delivery model. So to get embedded in a customer's landscape where they don't have to worry about storage, you have to provide that consistency on management, monitoring and procurement across the tech. And yes, this is deep technology problems, whether it's running our storage on AWS or Azure or running it on prem or, you know, at some point in the future, maybe even, um, you know, pure mini at the edge. Right. <laugh> so, you know, tho all of those things are tied to our pure, a service delivery. >>Yeah, technically non-trivial but uh, Hey, you guys are on it. Well, we gotta leave it there. Pash. Thank you. Great stuff. Really appreciate your time. >>All right. Thanks for having me, man. >>You're very welcome. Okay. In a moment, Steve McDowell from more insights and strategies, it's gonna give us the analyst perspective on, as a service, you're watching the cube, the leader in high tech enterprise coverage. >>Why are customers making the change to pure as a service >>Other vendors, offering flexible consumption models will promise you the world on the surface. It's just what you need. But then you notice the asterisk that dreaded fine print. That turns just what you need into long-term commitments, disruptive upgrades and unpredictable costs, pure storage, launched pure as a service to provide the flexibility to respond to your ever changing needs. With clear per unit costs, no large upfront purchases and no asterisks. A usage based model should be simple, innovative, and adapt with the changing market. Unlike other vendors, pure is offering exactly that with options, for service tiers and short term contracts in a single unified subscription that allows you to improve your discounts over time. Pure makes sure you can grow and upgrade without ever taking your environment offline and without the constant worry of hidden costs with complete billing, transparency, unlike any other, you only pay for what you use and pure one helps track and predict demand from day to day, making sure you never outgrow your storage. So why are customers making the change to pure as a service convenient solutions with unlimited potential without the dreaded fine print? It's as simple as that, >>We're back with Steve McDowell, the principal analyst for data and storage at more insights and strategy. Hey Steve, great to have you on, tell us a little bit about yourself. You got a really interesting background and kind of a blend of engineering and strategy and what's your research focus? >>Yeah, so my research, my focus area is data and storage and all the things around that, right? Whether it's OnPrim or cloud or, or, or, you know, software as a service. Uh, my background, as you said, is a blend, right? I grew up as an engineer. I started off as an OS developer at IBM. Uh, came up through the ranks and, and shifted over into corporate strategy and product marketing and product management. Uh, and I've been doing, uh, working as an industry analyst now for about five years, more insights and strategy. >>Steve, how do you see this playing out in the next three to five years? I mean, cloud got it all started. It's gonna snowballing, you know, however you look at it, percent of spending on storage that you think is gonna land in as a service. How, how do you see the evolution here? >>I think it buyers are looking at as a service, a consumption based is, is, uh, uh, you know, a natural model. It extends the data center, brings all of the flexibility, all of the goodness that I get from public cloud, but without all of the downside and uncertainty around cost and security and things like that, right. That also come with a public cloud and it's delivered by technology providers that I trust and that I know, and that I've worked with, you know, for, in some cases, decades. So I don't know that we have hard data on how much, uh, adoption there is of the model, but we do know that it's trending up, uh, you know, and every infrastructure provider at this point has some flavor of offering in the space. So it's, it's clearly popular with CIOs and, and it practitioners alike. >>So Steve organizations are at a they're different levels of maturity in their, their transformation journeys. And of course, as a result, they're gonna have different storage needs that are aligned with their bottom line business objectives. From an it buyer perspective, you may have data on this, even if it's anecdotal, where does storage as a service actually fit in and can it be a growth lever >>Can absolutely be, uh, a growth leader. Uh, it, it gives me the flexibility as, as an it architect to scale my business over time, without worrying about how much money I have to invest in, in storage hardware. Right? So I, I get kind of, again, that cloudlike flexibility in terms of procurement and deployment. Uh, but it gives me that control by oftentimes being on site within my permit. And I manage it like a storage array that I own. Uh, so you know, it, it's, it's beautiful for, for organizations that are scaling and, and it's equally nice for organizations that just wanna manage and control cost over time. Um, so it's, it's a model that makes a lot of sense and fits and, and certainly growing in adoption and popularity. >>How about from a technology vendor perspective you've worked for in the, in the tech industry mm-hmm <affirmative> for, for companies? What do you think is gonna define the winners and losers in this space? If you were running strategy for, uh, storage company, what would you say? >>I, I think the days of, of a storage administrator managing, you know, rate levels and recovering and things of that sort are over, right, what would, what these organizations like pure delivering, but they're offerings is, is simplicity. It's a push button approach to deploying storage to the applications and workloads that need it, right. It becomes storage as a utility. So it's not just the, you know, the consumption based economic model of, of, uh, as a service. Uh, it, it's also the manageability that comes with that, or the flexibility of management that comes with that. I can push a button, deploy bites to, to, uh, you know, a workload that needs it. Um, and it just becomes very simple, right. For the storage administrator in a way that, you know, kind of old school OnPrim storage can't really deliver. >>You know, I wanna, I wanna ask you, I mean, I've been thinking about this because again, a lot of companies are, are, you know, moving, hopping on the, as a service bandwagon, I feel like, okay, in and of itself, that's not where the innovation lives, the innovation is gonna come from making that singular experience from on-prem to the clouds across clouds, maybe eventually out to the edge. Um, do you, do you, where do you see the innovation in as a service? >>Well, there there's two levels of innovation, right? One, one is business model innovation, right? I, I now have an organizational flexibility to build the infrastructure, to support my digital transformation efforts. Um, but on the product side and the offering side, it really is, as you said, it's about the integration of experience. Every enterprise today touches a cloud in some way, shape or form, right. I have data spread, not just in my data center, but at the edge, uh, oftentimes in a public cloud, maybe a private cloud, I don't know where my data is and it really lands on the storage providers to help me manage that and deliver that, uh, uh, manageability experience, uh, to, to the it administrators. So when I look at innovation in this space, you know, it's not just a storage array and rack that I'm leasing, right? This is not another lease model. It's really fully integrated, you know, end to end management of my data and, and, you know, and all of the things around that. >>Yeah. So you, to your point about a lease model is if you're doing a lease, you know, yeah. You can shift CapEx to OPEX, but you're still committed to, to, you have to over provision, whereas here, and I wanted to ask you about that. It's, it's, it's, it's an interesting model, right? Cuz you gotta read the fine print. Of course the fine print says you gotta commit to some level typically. And then if, you know, if you go over you, you charge for what you use and you can scale that back down and that's, that's gotta be very attractive for folks. I, I wonder if you will ever see like true cloud-like consumption pricing, that is two edges to it. Right. You see consumption based pricing in some of the software models and you know yeah. People like it, the lines of business maybe cuz they pay in by the drink, but then procurement hates it cuz they don't have predictability. How do you see the pricing models? Do you see that maturing or do you think we're sort of locked in on, on where we're at? >>No, I, I do. I do see that maturing. Right? And, and when you work with a company like pure to understand their consumption based and as a service offerings, uh, it, it really is sitting down and understanding where your data needs are going to scale, right? You, you buy in at a certain level, uh, you have capacity planning. You can expand if you need to, you can shrink if you need to. So it really does put more control in the hands of the it buyer than uh, well certainly then traditional CapEx based on-prem but also more control than you would get, you know, working with an Amazon or an Azure. >>Okay. Thanks Steve. We'll leave it there for now. I'd love to have you back. Keep it right there at your storage service continues in a moment. >>Some things are meant to last your storage should be one of them say hello to the evergreen storage program, say goodbye to refreshes and rebates. Forget planned downtime, performance impact and data migrations. Forget forklift upgrades. Evergreen storage starts with your agile storage architecture and covers the entire life cycle of the array from first purchase to ongoing use. And whenever it's time to modernize and grow, your satisfaction is covered with an evergreen subscription. You can get a full refund within 30 days for any reason, >>Our right size guarantee lets you buy just the storage you need never too much. Never not enough. Your array software is all inclusive. Even future releases and features maintenance and support costs remain constant throughout the life of your array. Proactive expert support is a true white glove experience. Evergreen maintenance ensures availability of any replacement components. Meet the demands of your business and protect your investment. Evergreen gold includes controller upgrades every three years. And if something unplanned comes up, evergreen gold provides upgrade flex the leading anytime upgrade feature to upgrade controllers whenever you need it. As you expand evergreen gold provides credits to consolidate storage with denser more modern flash. Evergreen is your subscription to continuous innovation for storage that lasts 10 years or more. Some things are meant to last make your storage. One of them >>We're back at your storage service. Emil Stan is here. He's the chief commercial officer and chief marketing officer of open line. Thank you Emil for coming on the cube. Appreciate your time. >>Thank you, David. Nice. Uh, glad to be here. >>Yes. Yeah. So tell us about open line. You're a managed service provider. What's your focus? >>Yeah, we're actually a cloud managed service provider and I do put cloud in front of the managed services because it's not just only the spheres that we manage. We have to manage the clouds as well nowadays. And then unfortunately, everybody only thinks there's one cloud, but it's always multiple layers in the cloud. So we have a lot of work in integrating it. We're a cloud manages provider in the Netherlands, focusing on, uh, companies who have head office in the Netherlands, mainly in the, uh, healthcare local government, social housing logistics department. And then in the midst size companies between say 250 to 10,000 office employees. Uh, and that's what we do. We provide 'em with excellent cloud managed services, uh, as it should be >>Interesting, you know, a lot early on in the cloud days, highly regulated industries like healthcare government were somewhat afraid of the cloud. So I'm sure that's one of the ways in which you provide value to your customers is helping them become cloud proficient. Maybe you could talk a little bit more about the value prop to customers. Why do they do business with you? >>And I think, uh, there are a number of reasons why they do business with us or choose to choose for our manage services provider that first of course are looking for stability and continuity. Uh, and, and from a cost perspective, predict predictable costs. But nowadays you also have a shortage in personnel and knowledge. So, and it's not always very easy for them to access, uh, those skill sets because most it, people just want to have, uh, a great variety in work, what they are doing, uh, towards, towards the local government, uh, healthcare, social housing. They actually, uh, a sector that, uh, that are really in between embracing the public cloud, but also have a lot of legacy and, and bringing together best of all, worlds is what we do. So we also bring them comfort. We do understand what legacy, uh, needs from a manager's perspective. We also know how to leverage the benefits in the public cloud. Uh, and, uh, I'd say from a marketing perspective, actually we focus on using an ideal cloud, being a mix of traditional and future based cloud. >>Thank you. I, you know, I'd like to get your perspective on this idea of as a service and the, as a service economy that we often talk about on the cube. I mean, you work with a lot of different companies. We talked about some of the industries and, and increasingly it seems like organizations are focused more on outcomes, continuous value delivery via, you know, suites of services and, and they're leaning into platforms versus one off product offerings, you know, do you see that? How do you see your customers reacting to this as a service trend? >>Yeah. Uh, to be honest, sometimes it makes it more complex because services like, look at your Android or iPhone, you can buy apps, uh, and download apps the way you want to. So they have a lot of apps about how do you integrate it into one excellent workflow, something that works for you, David or works for me. Uh, so the difficulty, some sometimes lies in, uh, the easy accessibility that you have to those solutions, but nobody takes into account that they're all part of a chain, a workflow supply chain, uh, and, and, uh, they're being hyped as well. So what we also have a lot of time in, in, in, in managing our customers is that the tremendous feature push feature push that there is from technology providers, SaaS providers. Whereas if you provide 10 features, you only need one or two, uh, but the other eight are very distracting from your prime core business. Uh, so there's a natural way in that people are embracing, uh, SA solutions, embracing cloud solutions. Uh, but what's not taken into account as much is that we love to see it is the way that you integrate all those solutions toward something that's workable for the person that's actually using them. And it's seldomly that somebody is only using one solution. There's always a chain of solutions. Um, so yeah, there are a lot of opportunities, but also a lot of challenges for us, but also for our customers, >>You see that trend toward, as a service continuing, or do you actually see based on what you're just saying that pendulum, you know, swinging back and forth, somebody comes out with a new sort of feature product and that, you know, changes the dynamic or do you see as a service really having legs? >>Ah, I, I think that's very, very good question, David, because that's something that's keeping our busy all the time. We do see a trend in a service looking at, uh, talk about pure later on. We also use pure as a service more or less. Yeah. And that really helps us. Uh, but you see, uh, um, that sometimes people make a step too, too fast, too quick, not well thought of, and then you see what they call sort of cloud repatriation, tend that people go back to what they're doing and then they stop innovating or stop leveraging. The possibilities are actually there. Uh, so from our consultancy, our guidance and architecture point of view, we try to help them as much as possible to think in a SA thought, but just don't use the, cloud's just another data center. Uh, and so it's all about managing the maturity on our side, but on our customer side as well. >>So I'm interested in how your sort of your philosophy and, and as relates, I think in, in, in terms of how you work with pure, but how do you stay tightly in lockstep with your customers so that you don't over rotate so that you don't and send them to over rotate, but then you're not also, you don't wanna be too late to the game. How, how do you manage all that? >>Oh, there's, there's, there's a world of interactions between us and our customers. And so I think a well known, uh, uh, thing that people is customer intimacy. That's very important for us to get to know our customers and get to predict which way they're moving. But the, the thing that we add to it is also the ecosystem intimacy. So no, the application and services landscape, our customers know the primary providers and work with them, uh, to, to, to create something that, that really fits the customers. They just not looked at from our own silo where a cloud managed service provider that we actually work in the ecosystem with, with, with, with the primary providers. And we have, I think with the average customers, I think we have, uh, uh, in a month we have so much interactions on our operational level and technical levels, strategic level. >>We do bring together our customers also, and to jointly think about what we can do together, what we independently can never reach. Uh, but we also involve our customers in, uh, defining our own strategy. So we have something we call a customer involvement board. So we present a strategy and say, does it make sense? Eh, this is actually what you need also. So we take a lot of our efforts into our customers and we do also, uh, understand the significant moments of truth. We are now in this, in this broadcast, David there. So you can imagine that at this moment, not thinking go wrong. Yeah. If, if, if the internet stops that we have a problem. And now, so we, we actually know that this broadcast is going on for our customers and we manage that. It's always on, uh, uh, where in the other moments in the week, we might have a little less attention, but this moment we should be there. And these moments of truth that we really embrace, we got them well described. Everybody working out line knows what the moment of truth is for our customers. Uh, uh, so we have a big logistics provider. For instance, you does not have to ask us to, uh, have, uh, a higher availability on black Friday or cyber Monday. We know that's the most important part in the year for him or her. Does it answer your question, David? >>Yes. We know as well. You know, when these big, the big game moments you have to be on your top, uh, top of your game, uh, you know, the other thing Emil about this as a service approach that I really like is, is it's a lot of it is consumption based and the data doesn't lie, you can see adoption, you know, daily, weekly, monthly. And so I wonder how you're leveraging pure as a service specifically in what kind of patterns you're seeing in, in, in the adoption. >>Uh, yeah, pure as a service for our customers is mainly never visible. Uh, we provide storage services to provide storage solutions, storage over is part of a bigger thing of a server of application. Uh, so the real benefits, to be honest, of course, towards our customer, it's all flash, uh, uh, and they have the fastest, fastest storage is available. But for ourself, we, uh, we use less resources to manage our storage. We have far more that we have a near to maintenance free storage solution now because we have it as a service and we work closely together with pure. Uh, so, uh, actually the way we treat our customers is that way pure treats us as well. And that's why there's a used click. So the real benefits, uh, uh, how we leverage is it normally we had a bunch of guys managing our storage. Now we only have one and knowing that's a shortage of it, personnel, the other persons can well be, uh, involved in other parts of our services or in other parts of an innovation. So, uh, that's simply great. >>You know, um, my takeaway the meal is that you've made infrastructure, at least, least the storage infrastructure, invisible to your customers, which is the way it should be. You didn't have to worry about it. And you've, you've also attacked the, the labor problem. You're not, you know, provisioning lungs anymore, or, you know, tuning the storage, you know, with, with arms and legs. So that's huge. So that gets me into the next topic, which is business transformation. That, that means that I can now start to attack the operational model. So I've got a different it model. Now I'm not managing infrastructure same way. So I have to shift those resources. And I'm presuming that it's a bus now becomes a business transformation discussion. How are you seeing your customers shift those resources and focus more on their business as a result of this sort of as a service trend? >>I think I do not know if they, they transform their business. Thanks to us. I think that they can more leverage their own business. They have less problems, less maintenance, et cetera, cetera, but we also add new, uh, certainties to it, like, uh, uh, the, the latest service we we released was imutable storage being the first in the Netherlands offering this thanks to, uh, thanks to the pure technology, but for customers, it takes them to give them a good night rest because, you know, we have some, uh, geopolitical issues in the world. Uh, there's a lot of hacking. People have a lot of ransomware attacks and, and we just give them a good night rest. So from a business transformation, does it transform their business? I think that gives them a comfort in running your business, knowing that certain things are well arranged. You don't have to worry about that. We will do that. We'll take it out of your hands and you just go ahead and run your business. Um, so to me, it's not really a transformation is just using the right opportunities at the right moment. >>The imutable piece is interesting because, because, but speaking of as a service, you know, anybody can go on the dark web and buy ransomware as a service. I mean, as it's seeing the, as a service economy hit, hit everywhere, the good and the, and the not so good. Um, and so I presume that your customers are, are looking at, I imutability as another service capability of the service offering and really rethinking, maybe because of the recent, you know, ransomware attacks, rethinking how they, they approach, uh, business continuance, business resilience, disaster recovery. Do you see that? >>Yep, definitely. Definitely. I tell not all of them yet. Imutable storage. So it's like an insurance as well, which you have when you have imutable storage and you have been, you have a ransomware attack at least have you part of data, which never, if data is corrupted, you cannot restore it. If your hardware is broken, you can order new hardware. Every data is corrupted. You cannot order new data. Now we got that safe and well. And so we offer them the possibility to, to do the forensics and free up their, uh, the data without tremendous loss of time. Uh, but you also see that you raise the new, uh, how do you say, uh, the new baseline for other providers as well? Eh, so there's security of the corporate information security officer, the CIO, they're all very happy with that. And they, they, they raise the baseline for us as well. So they can look at other security topics and look from say, security operation center. Cuz now we can really focus on our prime business risks because from a technical perspective, we got it covered. How can we manage the business risk, uh, which is a combination of people, processes and technology. >>Right. Makes sense. Okay. I'll give you the last word. Uh, talk about your relationship with pure, where you wanna see that that going in the future. >>Uh, I hope we've be working together for a long time. Uh, I, I ex experienced them very involved. Uh, it's not, we have done the sell and now it's all up to you now. We were closely working together. I know if I talk to my prime architect, Marcel height is very happy and it looks a little more or less if we work with pure, like we're working with colleagues, not with a supplier and a customer, uh, and uh, the whole pure concept is fascinating. Uh, I, uh, I had the opportunity to visit San Francisco head office and they told me to fish in how they launched, uh, pure being, if you want to implement it, it had to be on one credit card. The, the, the menu had to be on one credit card. Just a simple thought of put that as your big area, audacious goal to make the simplest, uh, implementable storage available. But for us, uh, it gives me the expectation that there will be a lot of more surprises with pur in the near future. Uh, and for us as a provider, what we, uh, literally really look forward to is that, that for us, these new developments will not be new migrations. It will be a gradual growth of our services or storage services. Uh, so that's what I expect. And that was what I, and we look forward to. >>Yeah, that's great. Uh, thank you so much, Emil, for coming on the, the cube and, and sharing your thoughts and best of luck to you in the future. >>Thank you. You're welcome. Thanks for having me. >>You're very welcome. Okay. In a moment, I'll be back to give you some closing thoughts on at your storage service. 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>>The cube presents, Coon and cloud native con Europe, 2022, brought to you by red hat, the cloud native computing foundation and its ecosystem partners. >>Welcome to Valencia Spain in Coon cloud native con Europe, 2022. I'm your host Keith Townsend. And we're continuing the conversation with community, with startups, with people building cloud native, a cube alum joint by a CTO. And not as the CTO advisor. I really appreciate talking to CTOs Capel. Th Lou don't forgive me if I murder the name, that's a tough one. I'm I'm, I'm getting warmed up to the cubey, but don't worry. When we get to the technical parts, it's gonna be fun. And then a cube alum, Umer K director of marketing Capel. You're the CTO. So we we'll start out with you. What's the problem statement? What, what, what are you guys doing? >>So, uh, we're building on top of an open source project podcast, custodian, uh, that is in CNCF. And that I built when I was at capital one and just as they were going, they're taking those first few steps. It's a large regulated enterprise into the cloud. And the challenge that I saw was, you know, how do we enable developers to pick whatever tools and technologies they want, if they wanna use Terraform or cloud formation or Ansible? I mean, the cloud gives us APIs and we wanna be able to enable people to use those APIs through innovative ways. Uh, but at the same time, we wanna make sure that the, regardless of what choices those developers make, that the organization is being is being well managed, that all those resources, all that infrastructure is complying to the organizational's policies. And what we saw at the time was that what we were getting impediments around our velocity into the cloud, because we had to cover off on all of the compliance and regulation aspects. >>And we were doing that them as one offs. And so, uh, taking a step back, I realized that what we really needed was a way to go faster on the compliance side and clock custodian was born out of that effort side of desk that we took through enterprise wide. And it was really about, um, accelerating the velocity around compliance, but doing it in the same way that we do application and infrastructure is code. So doing policy as code in a very simple readable YAML DSL, um, because, you know, PO you have, we, anytime we write code, we're gonna more people are gonna read that code than, than are going to need to be able to write it. And so being able to make it really easy to understand from both the developers that are in the environment from the compliance folks or auditors or security folks that might wanna review it, um, it was super important. And then instead of being at the time, we saw lots of very under products and they were all just big walls of red in somebody's corner office and getting that to actually back the information back in the hands of developers so that they can fix things, um, was problematic. So being able to do time remediation and real time collaboration and communication back to developers, Hey, you put a database on the internet. It's okay. We fixed it for you. And here's the corporate policy on how to do it better in the future. >>So this is a area of focus of mind that people, I think don't get right. A lot, the technology hard enough by itself. The transformation cloud is not just about adopting new technologies, but adopting new processes, the data, and information's there automatically. But when I go to an auditor or, or, uh, compliance and say, Hey, we've changed the process for how do we do change control for our software stack? I get a blank stare. It's what do you mean we've been doing it this way for the past 15, 20 years, that's resistance, it's a pain point and projects fail due to this issue. So talk to me about that initial customer engagement. What's what's that conversation like? >>So we start off by deploying our, our platform on top of buck custodian. Um, and as far as our customers, and we give them a view of all the things that are in their cloud, what is their baseline, so to speak. Um, but I think it's really important. Like I think you bring up a good point, like communication, the challenge, larger challenge for enterprises in the cloud, and especially with grocery compliance is understanding that it is not a steady state. It's always, there's always something new in the backlog. And so being able, and the, one of the challenges for larger orgs is just being able to communicate out what that is. I remember changing a tag policy and spending the next two years, explaining it to people what the actual tag policy was. Um, and so being able to actually inform them, you know, via email, via slack, via, you know, any communication mechanism, uh, as they're doing things is, is so powerful to be able to, to help the organization grow together and move and get an alignment about what, what the, what the new things are. >>And then additionally, you know, from a perspective of, uh, tooling that is built for the real world, like being able to, as those new policies come into play, being able to say, okay, we're going to segment into stopping the bleeding on the net new and being able to then take action on what's already deployed that now needs to become into compliance is, is really important. But coming back to your question on customer engagements, so we'll go in and we'll deploy, uh, a SAC platform for them. We'll basically show them all of the things that are there already and extent. Um, we provide a real time SQL interface that customers can use, um, that is an asset inventory of all their cloud assets. Uh, and then we provide, uh, policy packs that sort of cover off on compliance, security, cost, optimizations, and opportunities for them. Uh, and then we help them through, uh, get ops around those policies, help deploy remediation activities and capabilities for their environment. >>So walk me through some of the detail of, of, of the process and where the software helps and where people need to step in. I'm making I'm, I'm talking to my security auditor, and he's saying, you know what, Keith, I understand that the Aw, that the, uh, VM talking to the application, VM talking to the Oracle database, there is a firewall rule that says that that can happen. Show me that rule in cloud custodian. And you're trying to explain, well, well, there's no longer a firewall. There's a service. And the service is talking to that. And it, it is here and clouds, custodian and St is whether Stant help come to either help with the conversation, or where do I inject more of my experience and my ability to negotiate with the auditor. >>So stalet from the perspective, uh, and if we take a step back, we, we talk about governances code and, and the four pillars around compliance, security, cost, optimization operations, uh, that we help organizations do. But if we take a step back, what is cloud custodian? Cloud custodian is really a cloud orchestrator, a resource orchestrator. What <inaudible> provides on top of that is UI UX, um, policy packs at scale execution, across thousands of accounts, but in the context of an auditor, what we're really providing is here's the policy that we're enforcing. And here's the evidence, the attestation over time. And here's the resource database with history that shows how we, how we got here, where we compliant last year to this policy that we just wrote today. >>So shifting the conversation, you just mentioned operations. One of the larger conversations that I have with CIOs and CTOs is where do I put my people? Like this is a really tough challenge. When you look at moving to something like a SRE model, or, uh, let's say, even focus on the SRE, like what, where does the SRE sit in an organization? How does stack, like if at all, help me make those types of strategic decisions if I'm talking about governance overall. So, >>So I think in terms of personas, if you look at there's a cloud engineer, then SRE, I think that what at its core Stackler and cloud custodian does is a centralized engine, right? So your cost policies, your compliance policies, your security policies are not in a silo anymore. It's one tool. It's one repository that everyone can collaborate on as well. And even engineering, a lot of engineering teams run custodian and, and adopt custodian as well. So in terms of persona stack, it really helps bring it together. All teams have the same simple YAML DSL file that they can write their policies, share their policies and communicate and collaborate better as well. >>Yeah. So I mean, cloud transformation for an enterprise is a deeper topic. Like I think, you know, there's a lot of good breast practices establishing a cloud center of excellence. Um, I, I think, you know, investing in training for people, uh, getting certification so everyone can speak the same language when it comes to cloud is a key aspect. When it comes to the operations aspect, I very much believe that you should have, you know, try to devolve and get the developers writing, uh, some of the DevOps. And so having SREs around for the actual application teams is, is valuable, but you still have a core cloud infrastructure engineering group that's doing potentially any of your core networking, any of your, you know, IM authentication aspects. And so, uh, what we found is that, you know, SLA and cloud custodian get PR primarily get deployed by one of three groups. >>The, uh, you know, you've got the, the CIO buyer within that cloud infrastructure engineering team. And what we found is that group is because they're working with the application teams in a read right way. Uh, they're very much more, um, uh, used to doing and open to doing remediation in real time. Um, and so, and then we also have the CISO teams that want to get to a secure compliance state, be able to do audit and, and validate that all the environments are, um, you know, secure, frankly. And then we get to the CFO groups. Uh, and so, and this sometimes is part of the cloud center of excellence. And so it, it has to be this cross team collaboration. And they're really focused on the, that, that cost optimization, finding the over provision, underutilized things, establishing workloads for dev environments to turn them off at night. Um, and of course, respective of time zones, cause we're all global these days. Uh, and so those are sort of the three groups that we see that sort of really want to engage with us because we can provide value for them to help their accelerate their business goals. >>So that's an expansive view, cost compliance, security operations. That's a lot, I'm thinking about all the tools, all the information that feeds into that, where does cloud custodians start and stop? Like, am I putting cloud custodian agents on servers or, uh, pods, like how, how am I interacting with this? >>So the core clock suiting is just to see lot it's stateless, it's designed to be operationally simple. Um, and so you can run it in Kubernetes, in Jenkins. We've seen people use GitLab. We've seen people run just as a query interactive tool just from, um, investigations perspective on their laptop. But when you write a policy, a policy really consists of, you know, a couple of core elements. Uh, you identify a resource you want to target say an S3 bucket or, uh, a Google cloud VM. And then you say establishes that a filters. I want to look for all the C two instances that are on public subnets with an IM roll attached that has the ability to, uh, create another IM user. And so that, you know, you filter down, you ask the arbitrary questions to filter to the interesting set of things you want, and then you take a set of actions on them. >>So you might take an action, like stop an C two instance, and you might use it as an incident response. Um, you might, uh, use it for off hours in a, in that type of policy. So you get this library of filters and actions that you can combine to form, you know, millions of different types of policies. Now, we also have this notion of an execution mode. So you might say, uh, let's operate in real time. Whenever someone launches this instance, whenever there's an API call, we want to introspect what that API I call is doing and make sure that it's compliant to policy. Now, when you do that, custo will, when you, and you run it with the COI, cause you will actually provision a Lambda function and hook up the event sources to it. Uh, and sorry, Lambda really the serverless we bind into the serverless native capabilities of the underlying cloud provider. So Google cloud function, Azure serverless functions, uh, and native AWS Lambda native us. And so now that policy is effectively hermetically sealed, running, uh, in the Seus runtime of that cloud and responding to API calls in real time, all with, you know, structured outputs and logs and metrics to the native cloud provider capabilities around those. Um, and that really ensures that, uh, you know, it's effectively becomes operation free from the perspective of the user of having to maintain infrastructure >>For it. So let's talk about >>Agent agent list and API based. >>Let's talk about like the a non-developer use case specifically finance. Absolutely. We, you have to deploy the ability to deploy, uh, um, uh, SAP in a, uh, E C two instance, but it's very expensive. Do it only when you absolutely need to do it, but you have the rights to do it. And I wanna run a, uh, a check to see if anyone's doing it like this is this isn't a colder developer, what is their experience? So, >>So primarily we focus on the infrastructure. So low balancers, VMs, you know, encryption and address on discs. Um, when we get into the application workloads running on those instances, we spend, we don't spend that that's on our target focus area. Mm-hmm <affirmative>, we can do it. Uh, and it really depends on the underlying cloud provider's capabilities. So in Amazon, there's a system called systems manager and it runs, and it's basically running an agent on the box. We're not running the agent, but we can communicate with that agent. We can, I inspect the, the inventory that's running on that box. We can send commands to that box, through those serverless functions and through those policies. And so we see it commonly used for like incident response and a security perspective where you might wanna take a memory snapshot of, of, of the instance before, uh, um, yeah, putting it into a forensic cloud and adding >>To that, like these days we're seeing the emerging personas of a fops engineer or a fops director as well, because cost in cloud is totally different. So what custodian and Stackler allows to do is again, using the simple policy files. Even if they have a non-developer background, they can understand this DSL, they can create policies, they can better, uh, target developers, better get them to take actions on policy as well. If they're overspending in the cloud or underspending in the cloud, uh, especially with St. You get, they get a lot of, out of the box dashboards and policy packs too. So say they can really understand how the cost has been consumed. They can have the developers take actions because a lot of the fops finance people complain like my developers does not understand it. Right. How do we get them to take action and make sure we are not over spending? Right. So with custodian policies, they're able to send them, uh, educational messages on slack or open a J ticket and really enforce them to take action as well and start saving cost. Like >>If you, uh, if you imagine cloud custodian as, um, you know, cleaning staff for, for the, your, your cloud environment, like it, it's, uh, you know, if you go to a typical, you know, cloud account, you're gonna see chairs that are 10 feet tall sitting at the table. You're gonna, because it's been over provision and obviously, you know, one can use it. Um, you're gonna find like the trash is overflowing because no one set up a log retention policy on the log group or set up S3, uh, life cycle rules on their buckets. And so you just have this, um, sort of this, uh, this explosion of things that people now, you know, beyond application functioning, like beyond, you know, getting to, you know, high performance, Dr. Capable, uh, SLAs around your application model, you now have to worry about the life cycle of all those resources and helping people manage that life cycle and making sure that they're using the, the, just the resources and consumption that they need, because we're all utilization based, uh, in the cloud. And so getting that to be more in line with what the application actually needs is really where we can help organizations and the CFO cost context. >>So, Emil, you got 10 seconds to tell me why you brought me a comic book. >><laugh> we created this comic book, uh, to explain the concept of governance scored in a simplified fashion. I know Keith, you like comic books, I believe. Uh, so it's a simple way of describing what we do, why it's important for pH ops for SecOps teams. And it talks about custodian and St. It as well. >>Well, I'm more of an Ironman type of guy or Batman cloud governance or governance cloud native governance is a very tough problem. I can't under emphasize how many projects get stalled or fail from a perception perspective, even if you're technically delivered what you've asked to deliver. That's where a lot of these conversations are going. We're gonna talk to a bunch of startups that are solving these tough problems here from Licia Spain, I'm Keith Townsend, and you're watching the cube, the leader in high tech coverage.

>> Announcer: Live, from Orlando, Florida, it's TheCUBE, covering PentahoWorld 2017. Brought to you by Hitachi Vantara. >> Welcome back to sunny Orlando everybody. This is TheCUBE, the leader in live tech coverage. My name is Dave Vellante and this is PentahoWorld, #PWorld17. Don DeLoach here, he's the co-chair of the midwest IoT council. Thanks so much for coming on TheCUBE. >> Good to be here. >> So you've just written a new book. I got it right in my hot off the presses in my hands. The Future of IoT, leveraging the shift to a data-centric world. Can you see that okay? Alright, great, how's that, you got that? Well congratulations on getting the book done. >> Thanks. >> It's like, the closest a male can come to having a baby, I guess. But, so, it's fantastic. Let's start with sort of the premise of the book. What, why'd you write it? >> Sure, I'll give you the short version, 'cause that in and of itself could go on forever. I'm a data guy by background. And for the last five or six years, I've really been passionate about IoT. And the two converged with a focus on data, but it was kind of ahead of where most people in IoT were, because they were mostly focused on sensor technology and communications, and to a limited extent, the workflow. So I kind of developed this thesis around where I thought the market was going to go. And I would have this conversation over and over and over, but it wasn't really sticking and so I decided maybe I should write a book to talk about it and it took me forever to write the book 'cause fundamentally I didn't know what I was doing. Fortunately, I was able to eventually bring on a couple of co-authors and collectively we were able to get the book written and we published it in May of this year. >> And give us the premise, how would you summarize? >> So the central thesis of the book is that the market is going to shift from a focus on IoT enabled products like a smart refrigerator or a low-fat fryer or a turbine in a factory or a power plant or whatever. It's going to shift from the IoT enabled products to the IoT enabled enterprise. If you look at the Harvard Business Review article that Jim Heppelmann and Michael Porter did in 2014, they talked about the progression from products to smart products to smart, connected products, to product systems, to system of systems. We've largely been focused on smart, connected products, or as I would call IoT enabled products. And most of the technology vendors have focused their efforts on helping the lighting vendor or the refrigerator vendor or whatever IoT enable their product. But when that moves to mass adoption of IoT, if you're the CIO or the CEO of SeaLand or Disney or Walmart or whatever, you're not going to want to be a company that has 100,000 IoT enabled products. You're going to want to be an IoT enabled company. And the difference is really all around data primacy and how that data is treated. So, right now, most of the data goes from the IoT enabled product to the product provider. And they tell you what data you can get. But that, if you look at the progression, it's almost mathematically impossible that that is sustainable because company, organizations are going to want to take my, like let's just say we're talking about a fast food restaurant. They're going to want to take the data from the low-fat fryer and the data from the refrigerator or the shake machine or the lighting system or whatever, and they're going to want to look at it in the context of the other data. And they're going to also want to combine it with their point-of-sale or crew scheduling, or inventory and then if they're smart, they'll start to even pull in external data, like pedestrian traffic or street traffic or microweather or whatever, and they'll create a much richer signature. And then, it comes down to governance, where I want to create this enriched data set, and then propagate it to the right constituent in the right time in the right way. So you still give the product provider back the data that they want, and there's nothing that precludes you from doing that. And you give the low-fat fryer provider the data that they want, but you give your regional and corporate offices a different view of the same data, and you give the FDA or your supply chain partner, it's still the same atomic data, but what you're doing is you're separating the creation of the data from the consumption of the data, and that's where you gain maximum leverage, and that's really the thesis of the book. >> It's data, great summary by the way, so it's data in context, and the context of the low-fat fryer is going to be different than the workflow within that retail operation. >> Yeah, that's right and again, this is where, the product providers have initially kind of pushed back because they feel like they have stickiness and loyalty that's bred out of that link. But, first of all, that's going to change. So if you're Walmart or a major concern and you say, "I'm going to do a lighting RFP," and there's 10 vendors that say, "Hey, we want to compete for this," and six of 'em will allow Walmart to control the data, and four say, "No, we have to control the data," their list just went to six. They're just not going to put up with that. >> Dave: Period, the end, absolutely. >> That's right. So if the product providers are smart, they're going to get ahead of this and say, "Look, I get where the market's going. "We're going to need to give you control of the data, "but I'm going to ask for a contract that says "I'm going to get the data I'm already getting, "'cause I need to get that, and you want me to get that. "But number two, I'm going to recognize that "they can give, Walmart can give me my data back, "but enrich it and contextualize it "so I get better data back." So everybody can win, but it's all about the right architecture. >> Well and the product guys going to have the Trojan horse strategy of getting in when nobody was really looking. >> Don: That's right. >> And okay, so they've got there. Do you envision, Don, a point at which the Walmart might say, "No, that's our data "and you don't get it." >> Um, not really- >> or is there going to be a quid pro quo? >> and here's why. The argument that the product providers have made all along is, almost in a condescending way sometimes, although not intentionally condescending, it's been, look, we're selling you this low-fat fryer for your fast food restaurant. And you say you want the data, but you know, we had a team of people who are experts in this. Leave that to us, we'll analyze the data and we'll give you back what you need. Now, there's some truth to the fact that they should know their products better than anybody, and if I'm the fast food chain, I want them to get that data so that they can continually analyze and help me do my job better. They just don't have to get that data at my expense. There are ways to cooperatively work this, but again, it comes back to just the right architecture. So what we call the first receiver is in essence, setting up an abstraction close to the point of the ingestion of all this data. Upon which it's cleansed, enriched, and then propagated again to the right constituent in the right time in the right way. And by the way, I would add, with the right security considerations, and with the right data privacy considerations, 'cause like, if you look around the market now, things like GEP are in Europe and what we've seen in the US just in the wake of the elections and everything around how data is treated, privacy concerns are going to be huge. So if you don't know how to treat the data in the context of how it needs to be leveraged, you're going to lose that leverage of the data. >> Well, plus the widget guys are going to say "Look, we have to do predictive maintenance "on those devices and you want us to do that." You know, they say follow the money. Let's follow the data. So, what's the data flow look like in your mind? You got these edge devices. >> Yep, physical or virtual. Doesn't have to be a physical edge. Although, in a lot of cases, there are good reasons why you'd want a physical edge, but there's nothing technologically that says you have to have a physical edge. >> Elaborate on that, would you? What do you mean by virtual? >> Sure, so let's say I have a server inside a retail outfit. And it's collecting all of my IoT data and consolidating it and persisting it into a data store and then propagating it to a variety of constituents. That would be creating the first receiver in the physical edge. There's nothing that says that that edge device can't grab that data, but then persist it in a distributed Amazon cloud instance, or a Rackspace instance or whatever. It doesn't actually need to be persisted physically on the edge, but there's no reason it can't either. >> Okay, now I understand that now. So the guys at Wikibon, which is a sort of sister company to TheCUBE, have envisioned this three tiered data model where you've got the devices at the edge where real-time activity's going on, real-time analytics, and then you've got this sort of aggregation point, I guess call it a gateway. And then you've got, and that's as I say, aggregation of all these edge devices. And then you've got the cloud where the heavy modeling is done. It could be your private cloud or your public cloud. So does that three tier model make sense to you? >> Yeah, so what you're describing as the first tier is actually the sensor layer. The gateway layer that you're describing, in the book would be characterized as the first receiver. It's basically an edge tier that is augmented to persist and enrich the data and then apply the proper governance to it. But what I would argue is, in reality, I mean, your reference architecture is spot-on. But if you actually take that one step further, it's actually an n-tier architecture. Because there's no reason why the data doesn't go from the ten franchise stores, to the regional headquarters, to the country headquarters, to the corporate headquarters, and every step along the way, including the edge, you're going to see certain types of analytics and computational work done. I'll put a plug for my friends at Hitachi Lumada in on this, you know, there's like 700 horizontal IoT platforms out there. There aren't going to be 700 winners. There's going to be probably eight to 10, and that's only because the different specific verticals will provide for more winners than it would be if it was just one like a search engine. But, the winners are going to have to have an extensible architecture that is, will ultimately allow enterprises to do the very things I'm talking about doing. And so there are a number out there, but one of the things, and Rob Tiffany, who's the CTO of Lumada, I think has a really good handle on his team on an architecture that is really plausible for accomplishing this as the market migrates into the future. >> And that architecture's got to be very flexible, not just elastic, but sometimes we use the word plastic, plasticity, being able to go in any direction. >> Well, sure, up to and including the use of digital twins and avatars and the logic that goes along with that and the ability to spin something up and spin something down gives you that flexibility that you as an enterprise, especially the larger the enterprise, the more important that becomes, need. >> How much of the data, Don, at that edge do you think will be persisted, two part question? It's not all going to be persisted, is it? Isn't that too expensive? Is it necessary to persist all of that data? >> Well, no. So this is where, you'll hear the notion of data exhaust. What that really means is, let's just say I'm instrumenting every room in this hotel and each room has six different sensors in it and I'm taking a reading once a second. The ratio of inconsequential to consequential data is probably going to be over 99 to one. So it doesn't really make sense to persist that data and it sure as hell doesn't make sense to take that data and push it into a cloud where I spend more to reduce the value of the payload. That's just dumb. But what will happen is that, there are two things, one, I think people will see the value in locally persisting the data that has value, the consequential data, and doing that in a way that's stored at least for some period of time so you can run the type of edge analytics that might benefit from having that persisted store. The other thing that I think will happen, and this is, I don't talk much, I talk a little bit about it in the book, but there's this whole notion where when we get to the volumes of data that we really talk about where IoT will go by like 2025, it's going to push the physical limitations of how we can accommodate that. So people will begin to use techniques like developing statistical metadata models that are a highly accurate metadata representation of the entirety of the data set, but probably in about one percent of the space that's queryable and suitable for machine learning where it's going to enable you to do what you just physically couldn't do before. So that's a little bit into the future, but there are people doing some fabulous work on that right now and that'll creep into the overall lexicon over time. >> Is that a lightweight digital twin that gives you substantially the same insight? >> It could augment the digital twin in ways that allow you to stand up digital twins where you might not be able to before. The thing that, the example that most people would know about are, like in the Apache ecosystem, there are toolsets like SnappyData that are basically doing approximation, but they're doing it via sampling. And that is a step in that direction, but what you're looking for is very high value approximation that doesn't lose the outlier. So like in IoT, one of the things you normally are looking for is where am I going to pick up on anomalous behavior? Well if I'm using a sample set, and I'm only taking 15%, I by definition am going to lose a lot of that anomalous behavior. So it has to be a holistic representation of the data, but what happens is that that data is transformed into statistics that can be queryable as if it was the atomic data set, but what you're getting is a very high value approximation in a fraction of the space and time and resources. >> Ok, but that's not sampling. >> No, it's statistical metadata. There are, there's a, my last company had developed a thing that we called approximate query, and it was based on that exact set of patents around the formation of a statistical metadata model. It just so happens it's absolutely suited for where IoT is going. It's kind of, IoT isn't really there yet. People are still trying to figure out the edge in its most basic forms, but the sheer weight of the data and the progression of the market is going to force people to be innovative in how they look at some of these things. Just like, if you look at things like privacy, right now, people think in terms of anonymization. And that's, basically, I'm going to de-link data contextually where I'm going to effectively lose the linkages to the context in order to conform with data privacy. But there are techniques, like if you look at GDCAR, their techniques, within certain safe harbors, that allow you to pseudonymize the data where you can actually relink it under certain conditions. And there are some smart people out there solving these problems. That's where the market's going to go, it's just going to get there over time. And what I would also add to this equation is, at the end of the day, right now, the concepts that are in the book about the first receiver and the create, the abstraction of the creation of the data from the consumption of the data, look, it's a pretty basic thing, but it's the type of shift that is going to be required for enterprises to truly leverage the data. The things about statistical metadata and pseudonymization, pseudonymization will come before the statistical metadata. But the market forces are going to drive more and more into those areas, but you got to walk before you run. Right now, most people still have silos, which is interesting, because when you think about the whole notion of the internet of things, it infers that it's this exploitation of understanding the state of physical assets in a very broad based environment. And yet, the funny thing is, most IoT devices are silos that emulate M2M, sort of peer to peer networks just using the internet as a communication vehicle. But that'll change. >> Right, and that's really again, back to the premise of the book. We're going from these individual products, where all the data is locked into the product silo, to this digital fabric, that is an enterprise context, not a product context. >> That's right and if you go to the toolsets that Pentaho offers, the analytic toolsets. Let's just say, now that I've got this rich data set, assuming I'm following basic architectural principles so that I can leverage the maximum amount of data, that now gives me the ability to use these type of toolsets to do far better operational analytics to know what's going on, far better forensic analysis and investigative analytics to mine through the date and do root cause analysis, far better predictive analytics and prescriptive analytics to figure out what will go on, and ultimately feed the machine learning algorithms ultimately to get to in essence, the living organism, the adaptive systems that are continuously changing and adapting to circumstances. That's kind of the Holy Grail. >> You mentioned Hitachi Vantara before. I'm curious what your thoughts are on the Hitachi, you know, two years ago, we saw the acquisition, said, okay, now what? And you know, on paper it sounded good, and now it starts to come together, it starts to make more sense. You know, storage is going to the cloud. HDS says, alright, well we got this Hitachi relationship. But what do you make of that? How do you assess it, and where do you see it going? >> First of all, I actually think the moves that they've done are good. And I would not say that if I didn't think it. I'd just find a politically correct way not to say that. But I do think it's good. So they created the Hitachi Insight Group about a year and a half ago, and now that's been folded into Hitachin Vantara, alongside HDS and Pentaho and I think that it's a fairly logical set of elements coming together. I think they're going down the right path. In full disclosure, I worked for Hitachi Data Systems from '91 til '94, so it's not like I'm a recent employee of them, it's 25 years ago, but my experience with Hitachi corporate and the way they approach things has been unlike a lot of really super large companies, who may be super large, but may not be the best engineers, or may not always get everything done so well, Hitachi's a really formidable organization. And I think what they're doing with Pentaho and HDS and the Insight Group and specifically Lumada, is well thought out and I'm optimistic about where they're going. And by the way, they won't be the only winner in the equation. There's going to be eight or nine different key players, but they'll, I would not short them whatsoever. I have high hopes for them. >> The TAM is enormous. Normally, Hitachi eventually gets to where it wants to go. It's a very thoughtful company. I've been watching them for 30 years. But to a lot of people, the Pentaho and the Insight's play make a lot of sense, and then HDS, you used to work for HDS, lot of infrastructure still, lot of hardware, but a relationship with Hitachi Limited, that is quite strong, where do you see that fit, that third piece of the stool? >> So, this is where there's a few companies that have unique advantages, with Hitachi being one of them. Because if you think about IoT, IoT is the intersection of information technology and operational technology. So it's one thing to say, "I know how to build a database." or "I can build machine learning algorithms," or whatever. It's another thing to say, "I know how to build trains "or CAT scans or smart city lighting systems." And the domain expertise married with the technology delivers a set of capabilities that you can't match without that domain expertise. And, I mean, if you even just reduce it down to artificial intelligence and machine learning, you get an expert ML or AI guy, and they're only as good as the limits of their domain expertise. So that's why, and again, that's why I go back to the comparison to search engines, where there's going to be like, there's Google and maybe Yahoo. There's probably going to be more platform winners because the vertical expertise is going to be very, very important, but there's not going to be 700 of 'em. But Hitachi has an advantage that they bring to the table, 'cause they have very deep roots in energy, in medical equipment, in transportation. All of that will manifest itself in what they're doing in a big way, I think. >> Okay, so, but a lot of the things that you described, and help me understand this, are Hitachi Limited. Now of course, Hitachi Data Systems started as, National Advance Systems was a distribution arm for Hitachi IT products. >> Don: Right, good for you, not many people remember. >> I'm old. So, like I said, I had a 30 year history with this company. Do you foresee that that, and by the way, interestingly, was often criticized back when you were working for HDS, it was like, it's still a distribution hub, but in the last decade, HDS has become much more of a contributor to the innovation and the product strategy and so forth. Having said that, it seems to me advantageous if some of those things you discussed, the trains, the medical equipment, can start flowing back through HDS. I'm not sure if that's explicitly the plan. I didn't necessarily hear that, but it sort of has to, right? >> Well, I'm not privy to those discussions, so it would be conjecture on my part. >> Let's opine, but right, doesn't that make sense? >> Don: It makes perfect sense. >> Because, I mean HDS for years was just this storage silo. And then storage became a very uninteresting business, and credit to Hitachi for pivoting. But it seems to me that they could really, and they probably have a, I had Brian Householder on earlier I wish I had explored this more with him. But it just seems, the question for them is, okay, how are you going to tap those really diverse businesses. I mean, it's a business like a GE or a Siemens. I mean, it's very broad based. >> Well, again, conjecture on my part, but one way I would do it would be to start using Lumada in the various operations, the domain-specific operations right now with Hitachi. Whether they plan to do that or not, I'm not sure of. I've heard that they probably will. >> That's a data play, obviously, right? >> Well it's a platform play. And it's enabling technology that should augment what's already going on in the various elements of Hitachi. Again, I'm, this is conjecture on my part. But you asked, let's just go with this. I would say that makes a lot of sense. I'd be surprised if they don't do that. And I think in the process of doing that, you start to crosspollinate that expertise that gives you a unique advantage. It goes back to if you have unique advantages, you can choose to exploit them or not. Very few companies have the set of unique advantages that somebody like Hitachi has in terms of their engineering and massive reach into so many, you know, Hitachi, GE, Siemens, these are companies that have big reach to the extent that they exploit them or not. One of the things about Hitachi that's different than almost anybody though is they have all this domain expertise, but they've been in the technology-specific business for a long time as well, making computers. And so, they actually already have the internal expertise to crosspollinate, but you know, whether they do it or not, time will tell. >> Well, but it's interesting to watch the big whales, the horses in the track, if you will. Certainly GE has made a lot of noise, like, okay, we're a software company. And now you're seeing, wow, that's not so easy, and then again, I'm sanguine about GE. I think eventually they'll get there. And then you see IBM's got their sort of IoT division. They're bringing in people. Another company with a lot of IT expertise. Not a lot of OT expertise. And then you see Hitachi, who's actually got both. Siemens I don't know as well, but presumably, they're more OT than IT and so you would think that if you had to evaluate the companies' positions, that Hitachi's in a unique position. Certainly have a lot of software. We'll see if they can leverage that in the data play, obviously Pentaho is a key piece of that. >> One would assume, yeah for sure. No, I mean, I again, I think, I'm very optimistic about their future. I think very highly of the people I know inside that I think are playing a role here. You know, it's not like there aren't people at GE that I think highly of, but listen, you know, San Ramon was something that was spun up recently. Hitachi's been doing this for years and years and years. You know, so different players have different capabilities, but Hitachi seems to have sort of a holistic set of capabilities that they can bring together and to date, I've been very impressed with how they've been going about it. And especially with the architecture that they're bringing to bear with Lumada. >> Okay, the book is The Future of IoT, leveraging the shift to a data-centric world. Don DeLoach, and you had a co-author here as well. >> I had two co-authors. One is Wael Elrifai from Pentaho, Hitachi Vantara and the other is Emil Berthelsen, a Gartner analyst who was with Machina Research and then Gartner acquired them and Emil has stayed on with them. Both of them great guys and we wouldn't have this book if it weren't for the three of us together. I never would have pulled this off on my own, so it's a collective work. >> Don DeLoach, great having you on TheCUBE. Thanks very much for coming on. Alright, keep it right there buddy. We'll be back. This is PentahoWorld 2017, and this is TheCUBE. Be right back.

live from Seattle Washington it's the cube covering dr. Kahn 2060 brought to you by dr. now you're your host John furrier and Brian Grace Lee okay welcome back and we are here live in Seattle Washington for Doc archon 2016 this is SiliconANGLE media is the cubes our flagship program and go out to the events and extract the signal from noise I'm John fourth by coach Brian Grace Lee our next guests Emil khandekar was the CEO of nuage networks part of Nokia welcome to the cube thank you to see you right so my doctor madness is really exploding in the developer community certainly galvanizing the digital transformation at the end of the day we always say in the cube the network's a bottleneck you got it and it's really about what's under the hood we just had talked to head biggest startup about storage you see a lot of disruption certainly and how infrastructures being technology being developed and make it more programmable yeah where is the story with the network where's that fit in what's the updates there because this is the day that's a critical piece of the pie indeed absolutely for ultimately for apps to be deployed on the network on any infrastructure as you said network has to get out of the way to create that developer efficiency to allow for applications to be deployed very quickly and how do you make that happen because containers are really being talked about we are the conference 4,000 plus people fantastic however CIOs know that they have not only the container technology to deal with but they have virtual eyes were closed and have had those words will eyes were closed for a long time they have bare metal servers that are supporting applications that probably will never move for a while so you have these very changing very dynamic environment and you have to understand how the networking can tie those things together seamlessly that's where we come in as much networks because your networks is essentially Sdn venture of Nokia and what we have at large networks what we've done is it's a modern Network policy based automation platform that allows for any workload whether it's a virtualized workload weather is a container workload whether it's a bare-metal server all to come together and be stitched automatically to allow for that application to be deployed quickly how is that different from other Sdn cloud architectures right you guys are doing within Nokia right so first and foremost what we have is it's a platform that we've built it's a virtualized services automation platform it's not a point solution for only the data center assets to be automated or only the SD when as it's called branch to be automated what it is it's is declarative policy-based automation platform that allows for which is open by the way completely open incorporates open source technologies and allows for all types of workloads if it's in and across data centers so virtualized workloads bare-metal workloads existing were closed as well as incorporates different hypervisor and cloud management system technologies and allows for connection to the branch and to the white area so you're saying it was built for cloud in mind is that what it was very much built for cloud enablement in mind making sure that we didn't forget on the way the existing environment and what you're seeing in the difference really between us and other platforms that are out there is essentially some of the SDN platforms are mono if you will and very narrow sliver they're based only for the data center and work on it on only on a mono hypervisor technology or some platforms are only looking at the SD van branch platform then were meant is such that you want and the cios want automation platform that is consistent across private on-prem as well as public resources and works across multiple hypervisor technologies and the big deal there is because you say point technologies but that that's code word for the older older approaches which was you know back in the mini-computer land days internet internet working you stand up some networks have policies and certainly policy based in a packet management and that was it that's right and you manage it within the data center that's right and that was adequate at that time so a vertically integrated stack in that simplified environment was adequate now now have such a variety of use cases you have got to deal with the cloud native applications you go to deal with the older applications but you need a consistent platform because ultimately you're looking to align ID to business needs and how do you align idea to business needs you do that by getting the networking out of the way and creating automation but again delivering operational simplification getting network out of the way I love that I you know a lot of CIOs are CEOs are seeing startups get into their industry you know if you're in pure and automobiles there's people that are trying to disrupt you you're in hotels everybody knows about those would what what is that you know they go great i can go hire some application developers i want to go faster yeah somebody says gilts get the network out of the way who are who are you selling to them what who is that person that says that sounds great but i still got to figure out routing and i got to figure out security i got to make it highly available who's the decision-maker in your world these days great great question Brian so a couple of points one these days any large enterprise that is looking to IT to create differentiation for their core business and if that means almost every large enterprises rely on IT heavily for their requirements as well as to create a differentiation for their own for product whatever it might be but they saw tomato its farmers pharmaceutical its retail those are indeed the customer that we are talking to because what they have is their environment has shifted as John said earlier it's not very simply a simple environment the environment will become complicated and to do that the networking requirements have become a very sophisticated as in you need application isolation you need multi-tenancy you need the ability to deploy policy very very quickly you need effortless governance of your security policies and compliance you need to be able to stitch all these were close together and also have a strategy for private and public cloud what that means is you need the technologies that were available to the top of the if you will only tier one service providers and bring that to the enterprise's and that's what we have done what use can you what use cases specifically around containers and policy do you see out there okay you specific yeah absolutely so I'll give you an example of a customer that was in OpenStack betfair is online betting and we have my cubes yeah that's right you had richard i say i believe and and what they have is they have 100 million plus transactions in a day on their infrastructure dare use cases continuous integration anything that did that scale at that scale and and so they're using the wash to basically create that automation for all their workloads that's one use case the other use cases we have a very large fortune five company that is looking to use the watch for automation of their virtualized machines so they have a cloud stack and they have kvm based hypervisor with virtual as virtual machines and they're using containers with measles and watch is the only platform that's allowing them to stitch these environments together seamlessly apply the same policy and same so you guys are a platform for a cloud native like environment with existing infrastructure you bring those together we bring that together in a highly automated way and then we allow for security very important security as in we prevent you know spread of mile there we die very quickly being able to enforce the policies we provide multi-tenancy doctors a huge security nightmare because just as much the benefits can interoperate with I mean the applications can be put in containers so good viruses exactly a naked scale and that's what our job is to make sure that how do you do it it doesn't do that because by able to very quickly enforce policies and Quarantine the workload so upon detection of malware our system gets a notification based on that notification we are able to because we have full view of all the workloads whether they are in private data center of public data center or in the branch we can very quickly then quickly effectively and surgically quarantine that workload because we know exactly where that workload is and we know exactly the policy to enforce this also helps by the way this system also helps by you know you get a security threat alert today it's it's a brute-force approach you go down and shut down a segment now with this policy based automation you go to the policy and you say I want only this application to not be allowed to do use this protocol and instantly that policy is deployed yeah I'm sort of picking up on two things you talk about sort of end and the platform for everywhere a lot of that's because we don't have boundaries anymore you know mobile phone changes a boundary that its executive office people are moving around so you need to be you need to have that sort of end end visibility you don't have segmentation like you used to and you talk about policy you know I need to be able as a developer to go network team I need you to sort of give me a service and then I just want to call it I don't want to have to call you I might be working at two at night we might have to change something on the fly like that's why the policy piece is so important is that right you are absolutely correct Brian and that is so critical because ultimately what ID is struggling with is how do they enforce the governance the security governance when application needs to be deployed I teak generally gets in the way not because they want to because they want to enforce certain security certain compliance policies and until now it has always been that manual process now with the security policy based infrastructure what they are able to do is they are able to put the policy once and they're insured that that policy is deployed seamlessly across all their workloads and so they have to audit the policy once and it's guaranteed provisioning which is error-free provisioning so it's huge in terms of the ability for enterprises to react to problems but also any changes the agility this brings the system brings to the table because ultimately you know without the network there is really no cloud and this is why we're hearing people talk about sec ops and sec DevOps and really security integrated without automation consistently automatable same thing every single time absolutely we have a one customer which is again a very large financial base in New York and their issue was exactly that in terms of being able to when I'm talking their CSO and the chief security officer the biggest thing that they took away from our policy based automation was not only the ability to able to stitch all these environments together seamlessly but being able to provide compliance being able to provide the automated policy infrastructure for all their birth was being able to really provide that application isolation those are big deals yeah very big deals for the CX those and csos Sonia we gotta wrap but I want to get your final thoughts on nuage and Nokia like you spend a minute talk about the distinction between the branding of the sea of nuage honestly the name is different I'll see Nokia is big you guys are part of that yes I explain to the people watching what you guys are about size scope the kind of engagement revenue or and how that compares and contrasts to nokia which we're part of but integers so we had a wholly-owned SD inventor of nokia and what we are focusing on is this policy based automation network automation for the data centers wide area and the branches nokia provides us tremendous sponsorship they are very much behind cash is and they recognize the value in our ability to serve the largest of the largest enterprise customers but also because of nokia we are able to address and are involved in very large service Reuters of projects so that's what helps us be involved they have huge scale so the way we work is we focus on over RND the innovation we bring to the table the community that we serve but nokia provides us and the reach yeah reporting the resources but you're wholly-owned meaning you run and run independently if you will we are yes but we are fully owned by nokia we just operate and focus on this it allows us to number customers can you share some data yeah and if we completed two years in the market and in two years we have over 60 plus customers we have over 200 deployments that we have completed pilot trials and deployments but we have 60 Plus very large service droid our customers cloud service providers for huge integrations and also the very big very big enterprise customers i named a couple of Fortune five companies but we are in retail we are in high tech we are in health care the new fabric your new fabric in these big high scale infrastructures that have diverse needs and diverse workloads there and have the need to stitch all that together in a cohesive fashion to build that automated fabric for a poseable almost right composable yeah to ultimately bring agility and align ID to the business I love the word composable infrastructure it really treats the infrastructure is programmable which is the nirvana make it an invisible make it get out of the way get out of the way but yet make it effortless I leave highly performing too so indeed heuer high-performance invisible that's right that's infrastructure as code and Neil thanks for sharing your insight here and the cube really appreciate nuage networks the CEO here on the cube live at da Kirk on I'm John Foley Brian Grace Lee we write back you're watching the cube