(upbeat electronic music) >> Announcer: Live from Vancouver, Canada, it's theCUBE, covering OpenStack Summit North America 2018. Brought to you by Red Hat, the OpenStack Foundation, and its ecosystem partners. >> Welcome back to The Cube's coverage of OpenStack Summit 2018 in Vancouver. I'm Stu Miniman with my co-host John Troyer. Happy to welcome back a company we've spoken to a few times at events, Paddy Power Betfair. First time guest coming to us from across the pond, Dave Buckley who is the automation engineer with Paddy Power Betfair, thanks for joining us. >> Thank you for having me. >> Alright, so first of all, you've been to a couple summits and we've talked to Paddy Power about OpenStack. Before we get into your specific implementation, tell us about your experience here this week and any compare, contrast to previous years. >> Yeah so I'm very lucky, I got to come to the previous two summits in North America. I guess what I've enjoyed this week, it's kind of a slight tilt towards, it's away from being purely OpenStack, kind of towards this open infrastructure kind of thing, 'cause like I said, especially last year in Boston, Q and NEs was becoming a big thing. Yeah, and kind of, the OpenStack Foundation becoming kind of more, not that it wasn't before, but more community-based and being part of the ecosystem. So, yeah, I think it's been quite interesting seeing that. >> Not to put words in your mouth but, it was even, the last year or two, it's more aware of some of the complimentary things and adding pieces. You know, we had, one of the interviews we did this week was person who's the SIC lead for the Kubernetes stuff, that sits under another Foundation, things like that. Yeah, exactly. It's been quite interesting this week, I guess, sort the Kata Container project, which wasn't something I'd been aware of before Monday morning basically. I remember we were sitting in the keynotes, and they were like, you can have this container-like thing which has all the speed of a container, but it's as secure as a BM. And you're thinking, how, how is that even possible? So I've really enjoyed, I got to go to one of the sessions yesterday, one of the technical introductions on that. >> Yeah, I always love, there's certain things where, okay, this is what I'm going to do with my schedule, and turns into, this got announced, or I didn't know about this, and you knew, blow up my schedule, let me change everything else. Yeah, exactly, I think you always, you can't, you have to be flexible, right? Adaptable, and as the week goes on you just go to what you think is interesting. >> John: So Dave, you and your company have been working with OpenStack for quite a while. >> Dave: Yeah. >> And you obviously run a system that needs to be stable. Right, needs to, you take care of betting and people's money. >> Dave: Exactly. >> So that needs to be solid. But I understand you recently went though an upgrade and have some experiences talking about that? Can you talk a little bit about where you are with your OpenStack implementation and that sort of migration? >> Sure. So, I guess it's about three years ago, it was Betfair at the time, so this was before the merger of the two companies. So Betfair started using OpenStack, and I think it was actually the last time the summit was here, in Vancouver. So a couple of my colleagues who were kind of the technical leads at the time. Steve Armstrong and Steve Perera, they flew out here, to kind of get a feel for OpenStack, what it was, talk to people who'd had experiences with it. I actually think that conference back then was very informative of what the platform today now looks like. So some of the conversations they had there with people like New Age Networks and Arista, which we used for the switching, but conversations they had there kind of ended up being now what we're using in production. I guess over the past couple of years, so the big thing that happened obviously was this merger between Paddy Power and Betfair, following that they had an exercise which they called the single customer platform, which is annoyingly, for a sys-admin guy, kind of like me, they, it's always been abbreviated to SCP, but you have to ignore that. So that was to kind of consolidate and integrate the Paddy Power and Betfair co-bases and put it on a single platform, which was our OpenStack and Nuage platform. So that kind of completed in January this year, so that's live, so basically the Paddy Power sports book has an entirely new website, all running on OpenStack. A lot quicker and more efficient then the previous version. So that's been a real success. And as part of that, I should say that stability is really vital, so kind of in our business. If the site is down we don't make any money, and if it happens during a big sporting event you have a big problem. >> Do you have a metric around that? What a minute or an hour of down time would be? >> So I guess it always depends, so the nature of our traffic is very spikey. So obviously when you have a big, it's on a Saturday in Europe, the football, soccer, maybe I should say, is like a very big deal. >> We have a global audience, football's okay. >> I'll stick with football then. >> We were all watching the royal wedding. >> I don't want to talk about that. The football, if you, we just get peak traffic on that day. And, even within the year, there's a thing called the Grand National, which is a big event in the UK, big horse racing, I guess like the Kentucky Derby. It's kind of when we get our maximum traffic in the year. Yeah, you always need to be prepared for that. So one of the things as you mentioned, we kind of look into upgrade OpenStack from Kilo to Newton. So we've been on Kilo from the start. We're using Red Hat's distribution of OpenStack, so what Red Hat offer is this, they have like every three releases I think it is? They have this long release life-cycle. So that's kind of the reason we're going to Newton, cause we have kind of the, then the support will go to 2021. [Stu] - But if I remember, it's Red Hat the OpenStack Platform 10. >> Dave: Yeah. >> And 13 is going to be queened as their next one that's going to be released. >> Exactly, so I think they just announced that this week, right? So I think at some point in the next year or two we'd be going to queens. >> How do you determine when you make that jump and anything around the upgrade process, you know, good and bad that you could share. >> Dave: Yeah, so I guess going from, we were overdue an upgrade in this case, Kilos, you know, pretty old now. What we're lucky that we can do is because we have Nuage, it's like an external SDM provider, so the entire data plane is controlled by Nuage, and you can kind of plug as many OpenStacks as you like really into Nuage, and you offload all the networking to Nuage. So what's that's allowed us to do is basically we'd have had a lot of trouble if we'd had to do an in place upgrade, so I've actually been to one of the groups this week, quite a lot of people were talking about upgrades and just like all the nightmares it's caused. I know it's getting better as like the releases come out, but what we were able to do is kind of building new, an entirely new OpenStack cloud on the side of, so we've kind of turned it kind of an immutable OpenStack, so your OSB 7 cloud is there, we built this new OSB 10. But they're both circ into the same networking, so the same Nuage SDN. And the way our developers deploy their applications, I guess you want to see this in more detail, we've done presentations at these summits in the past, but kind of in short, every deployment we do immutable deployments as well, so for every deployment we'll create a new subnet within Nuage, and kind of do rolling update of your VMs that are on that new subnet into like a VIP which is kind of where the constant is, so all the traffic's come in to that VIP then you just flip things in and out below it when you do a deployment, so what that basically means is from a developers point of view, when they're migrating from OSB 7 to OSB 10 they'll essentially spin up new networks and new VMs in OSB 10 and that deployment pipeline will kind of just seamlessly, everything else will stay the same because the networking doesn't change. So we don't have to have any downtime on the data plane or the control plane. Which is really beneficial for us 'cause the way, I guess this is I'll just describe the way developers do deployments like we rely heavily on the OpenStack API being available. You pay a cost in that you, so you need extra hardware to do that I guess, but yeah we found it is something that's worked for us. >> John: Anything else with the networking and specifically that you all are running, the load balancing or resiliency that you need to have for your apps? >> Dave: Yeah so one of the things was, so it's kind of another problem there were trying to solve with this whole project, this new OpenStack platform is that historically Betfair, as it was at the time, had always run out of a single data-center. But we had another site, but it was mainly kind of a development environments right in there. So the company thought why don't we just have, we should just have both DCs for resiliency, try and run things in like an active-active configuration. Which is fine for external customer facing applications where we've had an external load balance server that can point traffic between the two DCs. But then the question is what do you do with internal apps? So this is what led us to use Avi Networks, which is kind of a cloud native load balancing technology, so we've been using to provide like GSLB internal laps, so basically we'll load balance traffic between the two data-centers so it gets deployed within your OpenStack environment, has a really neat integration with Nuage, the Nuage SDN layer, and will resolve you to whichever data-center is appropriate at that time. So if you have a full data-center outtage, you should be able to go "Okay, point stuff over there". >> John: So it makes you and the networking team or the IT team into the heroes not the villains, you're usually the people saying "No" or "We can't do that". >> I guess so, I guess so yeah you're probably right. It's cool technology though. I guess that we're very lucky and that we're given the opportunity by the people at the company to experiment with new things, so even though we're about stability but we're also about trying to push things forward in terms of what technology to use. >> Stu: Dave I'm curious how kind of the hybrid or multi-cloud type of environments fit into what you're doing today, give us the update there. >> Dave: Yeah so that's something very in our radar at the moment I guess it's, yeah it's what everybody's doing, looking to how you can have this hybrid cloud model. So I think, going back three years again, at that time, being like an online betting company, it's a highly regulated business and only at that point it was really possible to kind of put some of this stuff into the public cloud, it seems like things have come a long way, so it's something we're looking at at the moment, we're evaluating different solutions, different vendors like the Googles, AWSs, and seeing or even like some OpenStack public clouds and seeing maybe how could we migrate some workloads out into the public cloud, how do we want to that, to give us more resiliency, and also as I was saying about our spiky traffic, it just makes a lot of sense to be able to say burst out into whichever public cloud vendor on a Saturday when the football's on to deal with that peak load. So it's something we're very much looking at at the moment. But yeah no formal decisions as of yet. Unless they've done something while I've been away. >> John: With containers here at the show, lots of different threads right? Containers, Edge, the OpenDev track, things like that. Anything else, we've talked about Kata, anything else that came up that was interesting here that you just watch Kubernetes and container track as well? >> Dave: So I guess in terms of containers it's, sitting in the Keynotes on Monday you would, if you weren't watching if you were just listening, you probably wouldn't know you were at an OpenStack Summit right since there's as much Kubernetes container stuff as there is OpenStack. It's interesting so we've kind of been doing... Again, similar to the public cloud conversation, it's something that's very relevant to us at the moment, we've done kind of a few proof-of-concept ideas, evaluating different solutions, so we have like running a Cube cluster ourself, obviously we have a strong relationship with Red Hat that we've kind of explored to using OpenShift maybe, and then come the networking layer you can integrate with Nuage which would be really cool for us so it'll allow us to do kind of the all the networking, access control mechanisms as we do for our virtual machines. And again this is also something in the whole public cloud conversation is well if wanted to containers in the public cloud as well like you have all the different offerings, would we want to run our own, in like an AWS or something? Or maybe go to someone like Google where you have that supported self-service model I suppose. But yeah at the moment it's kind of at those stages so I think Steve did a presentation on the Kubernetes stuff like a PCO we done at the last Summit. But yeah still at the moment still want to make some firm decisions about which direction we're going to go but a lot of the developers a very keen for this and obviously for guys like us we all know the value of it so I think at the moment because we had that focus on stability we should now have a period of time where we're able to kind of look at all this stuff a bit more, hopefully get some container solutions into production which would be awesome. >> Stu: Dave Buckley we really appreciate you giving us the update, love to be able to do some of those longitudinal case studies as to where you've been where you're going, what you're thinking about. Be sure to check out thecube.net, you can actually search for Patty Power Betfair, see some of those previous interviews from Dave's peers. Loads more interviews there as well as all the shows we're going to be at in the future where hope you come by and say "Hi". For John Troyer I'm Stu Miniman, thanks so much for watching theCUBE. >> (electro-dance music) >> (soft piano)

>> Voiceover: Live from Boston, Massachusets, it's The Cube, covering OpenStack Summit 2017, brought to you by the OpenStack foundation, RedHat, and additional ecosystem support. >> Welcome back, I'm Stu Miniman, joined by my co-host John Troyer. We're really digging in to some of the practitioners here on day three of our coverage. Happy to welcome back to the program, a Cube alum. Not only that, a super user, and not only that, a cowinner Paddy Power Betfair, Steve Armstrong, principal automation engineer. Thanks so much for joining us and congratulations to you and all team. >> Thank you, thanks very much. >> Alright, so, we've had you on the program, bring us up to speed, you know, where's your OpenStack deployment going, where are you spending your time? You know, at the event and stuff. >> So we're just recently, last year, merged companies, so what we're doing with it at OpenStack implantation at the moment is we're migrating all of our applications onto it from the merged company, so we're in the migration phase of the project at the moment, so we just recently, just after Christmas, had the hundred applications onto the platform. Mayston, we're now up to around 200 applications, so what we're doing with it is we've got a single customer platform which is the Merscode base of the two companies, and then we're going to run different branding from it. So in terms of OpenStack, what we're doing is we're looking to do an upgrade in the next month, as well. We had the session earlier on today where we went through that, so hopefully that was insightful for the people that were here. >> So fascinating, I'll tell you what, one of the, you know, there are many challenges with mergers and acquisitions. IT can be atrocious. I've worked with plenty of companies, if they're small, the parent company comes in, rips out the entire thing, and puts a new thing. How's OpenStack, is that an enabler? Do you see it as a marked improvement? Any findings that you've got so far? >> Well I think with OpenStack, it is very flexible because we're using it as the Middleware for the whole platform, and so we've got different storage vendors, we can just substitute the end and then go to the OpenStack APIs, that programmatically control everything. So, it's really useful for us, so if we ever wanted to essentially use a new storage vendor then we don't have to rewrite all the self-service orchestration our developers are using and interrupt them, so that's really, that's key for us and our business. >> It's interesting you use the word middleware. I haven't heard that word used in terms of OpenStack, but you mean the layer, literally the layer, between storage networking the raw infrastructure, and the app on top. >> Yeah, so what we're really doing, we've created self-service template that our development teams use, and we then want multiple different ways for teams to create virtual machines and basically go the APIs directly, so what we've done is we've created a layer using Felt Works School, and where development teams fill in self-Service yamafells with all the details that it needs and then they can send them for structure that way, so we're simplifying it and making it user-friendly for them so that when they're onboarding an application, they don't actually need to come to the infrastructure team. They can basically self-serve against OpenStack, so I think that's giving them that EWS or Google Cloud or Azure-like ability within the private cloud, and we've had to really change the way our business is set-up to actually operate that, so generally what we've done is we set up different teams where they're more T-shaped teams, so you, in a T-shape team, you have a network engineer, you have a storage guy, you have some automation engineers, someone maybe from a development background, and what we really did with it, when we're building the pilot process, we tried to encapsulate all those different scales within the one team and set them up as a core team that would then go and build the infrastructure using best practices from each discipline. >> So a T-shaped in the sense that, the team is still cross-functional, what's the 'T' of the T-shape. >> So, the debt of the T is really the deep-dive expertise, so you might have a network engineer who has a deep-dive knowledge in that, but what we're trying to do is expand the teams breadth, so the breadth is the T is really the other disciplines that they are learning as part of that team. >> And congrats on the award again. >> Steve: Thank you. >> As they talked about the award, some of the description of why you got the award, they did mention, the words dev-ops and CICDs. You talked a little bit about an order structure and changing your org, and processes to do that. Now do you call that T-shaped, is that a dev-ops team for you, or how do you all look at it? >> We don't really like to use dev-ops team because it is kind of a- >> That was a trick question. >> Yeah, a leading question, so it was really, a. What we try to do is have cross-functional teams so really dev-ops for us, what it means, is more collaboration between those teams. We've still got teams at the moment within our business that are looking after the heritage legacy stacks at the moment, so what we'll need to do going forward in our business is bring those teams into the fold cause we've really had, I mean, essentially what we're doing at the moment, it's, like, gotten our bimodal, where you essential have more to, we're beltless. We need to take that to the next level and basically bring the people that have been looking after the other parts of the business because you need to maintain them while we're doing this new private-cloud implementation, along on that journey, so we're running training sessions now for our network engineers, teaching them mansible skill in the map, so it's really exciting time, just bringing on that journey. >> I actually think that's fascinating, because there's been a lot of talk about bimodal, type one versus type two and the word from the community and from the end users' raids, that's not sustainable. So, what you're saying is is indeed you can organize that way, but you've got to bring the old teams- >> Yeah, I think you can put names on anything, but generally that's what you do, you stand up, we stood up a brand new Greenfield implementation. You needed to people to go over to that, and act in a different way because OpenStack, it doesn't make sense having different styles, looking after different components of it, because OpenStack centralizes that into middleware, so it's actually quite difficult to chop that up into different styles. If you're going to do it, you couldn't have someone just looking after sender for instance because it's so incorporated with the rest of the stack. So really what we're doing is we're exposing that API layer to the developers and allowing them to self-service against it, and then we look after the core team, the maintenance of it, so we've done this with the team. Eight people looking after the core platform, and then we've got multiple different teams that went out and they helped the developers onboard many applications onto the platform by teaching them the self-service workflows and how to fill out all the yama files, and then if there's any feedback from them, we use a continuous improvement model to try and get them to improve the platform continuously. So, it's a continuum process and it's gets better and better each day, and hopefully we're going to speed up the amount of deployment that we can do and speed up take to market for it. >> Nice. So Steve, we've very much appropriated, you know, your organization sharing with our community. You're very active, obviously, in the super user. Talk about how you interact with your peers, you know, how that helped with your learnings, kind of that give and take that you have with the community. >> Yeah, so with the community, really, we come to these events, and we generally try to be as open as possible and just talk about our lessons learned. I think the OpenStack Summit's great for that because people are very honest. It's not like vendor-led. And met-ups, for instance, where they'll just tell you that everything's great and they're very self-deprecating in some of the sessions, but I think that honesty with the OpenSource community and the continual learning that you get from that is really key to actually looking at the problems, seeing 'OK, we're not 100% perfect' cause you never will be, and continuously improving as a community. So, I think having the belief then to drive with the OpenSource community is very key in that, and because that, I think, what you can do is if something in OpenStack isn't working the way that you want it to, you can contribute back and you can actually help make a difference and make it better. That's what we're trying to and there's projects such as Vitrush or Rickos and Alice's where at the moment you don't have a sense of plug-in, we use senses, so we begin to contribute back in write in a plug-in for that project so that we can use it, and then others basically benefit from that as well, so I think that's where OpenStack's very key. Your hear Edward Snowden's keynote, some controversial things in there, but at the same time, the premise was really if your putting your data somewhere else, like in public cloud, you don't actually know what's happening with, so that was something that resonated quite well because you have to look at what workload you want to run in public cloud and which ones you can run in private cloud, so I think it would really... We're just getting on to the next stages, and evolution and that journey where we will be looking at what workloads we place where, and I think that is where tubes like Cooper Nessus are really thriving, because they can place workloads wherever you want, and that's the popularity is so high. >> I'm wondering if you can speak a little bit to your company's corporate culture that allows, you know, this movement. I think, you know, information's open, eventually the house always wins on these bets, alright, with so much information available. >> Yeah, so, I think for us, the way that we've been able to do this is we've had sponsorship from CT level and Director level down, and it's very hard when you're doing a grassroots movement of just engineers trying to do this from the ground up. You really have to have a company that believes in this philosophy and wants to take it forward. And for us, what we really wanted to was just create a platform that allowed our developers to innovate on it, and just basically make the best tubes possible for our customers. >> So you're a longtime OpenStack user. We're now here in Boston, you know, Summits every six months. Anything in particular about the mood of people, the operators here, kind of how you would like to see both, you know, we've talked about Cooper and Eddie's, you've talked about different modules that you might want to see, you know, some activity in, or, just how you see in the future, path of OpenStack, how would you like the community and the project to grow? >> Well, I think there is a lot of presentations on stand-alone apps in OpenStack, so you have center stand-alone for box storage, you have ironic stand-alone. We use some of those projects to actually build it out, so I think module-bar rising it, and allowing it to be used, you might not want to install all of OpenStack, but why can't you install sender for instance, to control box storage, and so I think that's really the future of it. People could take all of it, or they could take different components of it, and I think that's what we're seeing in the community. People want to be able to install sender to help manage it, and maybe not install neutron or keystone alongside it, so I think that's really where OpenStack is going. It will be a modular metal service framework that makes it up, and you can install the best that you want in the project that you want. We've also seen a consolidation of projects, that the results of talk are in that eventually making projects simpler and removing features. I think when we originally had OpenStack, we just tried to throw every feature possible in, and then you seen a sprawl of projects, and then that's not maintainable. I think what we're getting down to is just the key projects that then use going forward, So I think you see the consolidation and then stand-alone instances that you can kind of plug-in the edges. >> So, Steve, let me speak a little bit about your business. I have to think there's few companies, you know, at least definitely fewer industries, that, deal with the rate of change and the uncertainty in the world, you know, more than really gambling in everything, that happens there. Anything changing in kind of the relationship of IT to the business? How does OpenStack help you respond to a very dynamic environment. >> Yeah, so, I think the key thing for us, is if one of our competitors has a feature, and we can't compete with that feature, we just will loose our customers to that competitor. So really being able to change and use OpenStack to change the platform and get new products out to market as quickly as possible is very key for us. Generally OpenStack is helping is we want an active, active data center We have a 24/7 business. We really need to have that uptake. If we are down, any sporting event, our customers will go somewhere else to place bets. So that's really key. And, for us, we've used OpenStack across two data centers, and built that out, and what we're looking to do is scale that out horizontally. So, for instance, when we've got new applications coming up onboard, we can just scale out new ratchets in openstack, we use ironic. We're completely controlling the whole data center programmatically, and that allows us the ability to scale up the infrastructure to meet the demands so that people are not waiting on tickets, or not having the internal IT processes that are handling most of our firms, so that's really where OpenStack is allowing us to evolve is that flexibility in having a private cloud just like you would a public cloud with VWS, but we've got that in-house. So I think we're quite lucky, and I keep telling the garages that are working on this, this is a once in a lifetime project, and I don't think they'll really believe me until they get their next job, so I think they're being quite spoiled in this as well. >> Steve Armstrong, really appreciate you joining us again on the program, and once again congratulations at Paddy Power Betfair and the whole team, and John and I will be back with more coverage here from the OpenStack Summit 2017 in Boston, Massachusetts You're watching the Cube.

>> Announcer: Live, from Boston, Massachusetts, it's theCUBE, covering OpenStack Summit 2017. Brought to you by The OpenStack Foundation, Red Hat, and additional ecosystems support. >> Hi, I'm Stu Miniman, and my cohost this week has been John Troyer. This is SiliconANGLE Media's production of theCUBE, worldwide leader in live tech coverage. And this has been OpenStack Summit 2017 in Boston, Massachusetts. John, we came in with a lot of questions. One of my premises, coming into the event was that we needed to reset expectations, a little bit. I know I learned a lot this week. Still one of my favorite communities. A lot of really smart people. Really interesting things going on. Open source infrastructure is really the focus here. Start with you, big meta takeaways from the show so far. >> Big picture, my first summit, my first summit here. Didn't quite know what to expect. I love the community, a lot of activity. A lot of real world activity going on. People building clouds today. So that was very insightful and very, that's a great data point. As far as the ecosystem goes, a lot more talk about integrating with the rest of the open source ecosystem, about integrating with other public and private clouds. So I thought that there was also a lot of self awareness here about where OpenStack is on it's journey and how it might proceed into the future. So overall, I think, you know, a really practical, focused, and grounded week. >> Yeah, came in with the whole concept of big tent. I think which we said, there's a big hole poked in that. There's the core is doing well, there's a number of projects, I forget the user survey, whether you know, there's the kind of the six core pieces and then there's like 9 or 10 in the average configuration. So there's more than the core, there's interesting things going into it and last year I felt that OpenStack kind of understood where it fit into that hybrid cloud environment. As you pointed out this year, some of those upper layer things, I feel like I understand them a little more. So, of course, containers and Kubernetes, a big piece of the discussion this week. Containers definitely transforming the way we build our applications. It seems a given now, that containers will be a big part of the future and OpenStack's ready for it. We had yesterday, we had the people that did the demo in the keynote, but containers doing well. Kubernetes fits in pretty well, even though, I think it was Randy Bias that said, "Well, OpenStack needs Kubernetes." My paraphrase is Kubernetes doesn't need OpenStack. KubeCon is going to be in Austin at the end of the year and that show could be bigger than this show was here in Boston. Year over year, for the North American show, attendance is down a little bit, but still robust attendance, lots of different pieces. Containers, Kubernetes, you mentioned some of the other pieces, any other add-ons on that? >> Well now, I mean other than its worth saying that these are not either or, this is all and. If you look at the total addressable market, every place that containers and Kubernetes can play, that's every cloud in the world, right? It's up there at the application layer. If you look at where OpenStack belongs, it is in these private clouds that have special needs, that have, either from privacy, security or functionality latency, just data gravity, right. There's all these reasons why you might want to build out a public cloud and we see that with Telco. Telecomm is building out their own infrastructure, because they need it, because they run the network core. So that's not going away. As far as containers go, again the story was not either or, it's and. You can containerize the infrastructure. That's super useful. Sometimes being bare metal is useful. Separately, you can put containers on top, because that's increasingly becoming the application packaging and interface format. So, I didn't see a lot of ideology here, Stu, and that was refreshing to me. People were not saying there is one true way. This is a modular system that, at this point in it's life cycle, it has to become very pragmatic. >> John, I think that's a great point, because we knock on, and everybody knocks on, OpenStack's not simple and the reason is because IT is not simple. Everybody has different challenges, therefore, it's not a Lego brick, it's lots of ways we put it together. Had some really interesting deep dives with a customer, couple of users today. The Adobe advertising cloud, Paddy Power Betfair, both of those gave us real concrete examples of how and why they build things the way they do. How OpenStack and Kubernetes go together. How acquiring another company, or switching your storage vendors is made easier by OpenStack. So, we've talked to a number of practitioners, they like OpenStack, reminds me of VMware. People like being able to build it and tweak it. Very different scale for some of these environments, but people are building clouds. The Telecom's are doing some good things. All the Linux companies are super excited about the future, that it helps them kind of move up the stack and become more critical environments and how it all ties into this multi-hybrid cloud world. Digital transformation, many of these pieces, I need that modern infrastructure and the open infrastructure coming from OpenStack and related pieces pull it all together. >> Well, where is the innovation going to come from in this next generation of cloud? I thought our segment with Orran, talking about the Massachusetts open cloud, was great, because he's there as a computer science professor, somebody who's been intimately involved with virtualization, with IBM, with VMware, saying, "Okay, we need to build this next generation. "Where can we innovate? We have to own the stack "and OpenStack is a great way for us to innovate "with those different components." One of the challenges, because OpenStack as a set of technologies, is so modular, is where's the knowledge come from? Where's the knowledge transfer? Can you find an OpenStack expert? Do you have to grow them? So, I see that as one challenge going forward for the OpenStack community, is how do we grow the knowledge base? How do we make sure that people are trained up and able to architect and operate OpenStack based clouds? >> Yeah, John, how about the individuals themselves? We talked to Lisa-Marie Namphy about the Ambassadors Program. We talked to a number of our guests throughout the week about training everything, from Orran Krieger, talking about how his students are helping to build this, to engagement contribution. I mean it's nuance, when I look at the future of jobs. A lot of companies here are hiring. Which is always heartening to me. What's your take on that aspect? >> Well, it's still a very vibrant community. You look at these different camps, a lot of them are vendor affiliated these days. There are very few communities that are outside of a vendor and these open source foundations are one source of those. I think, look there's still 5 or 6,000 people here, right? This is not a small event and these people are active, hands on operators, for the most part. So-- >> Yeah and the thing I'd point out, there are lots of companies that have contributors here. The other category is still really big here. A point Lisa-Marie made, many of the people that have contributed here have switched jobs a number of times. NASA helped start it. They kind of left, they came back. Some of the big Telecom companies, they're not selling OpenStack, they're using it to help build their services. So, it's like wait, which are vendors, which are providers? I think we know everybody's becoming a software company. Wait John, TechReckoning, are you a software company yet? >> We use a lot of soft, we use a lot of cloud, mostly on SaaS side. >> At SiliconANGLE Media we actually have a part of our business that is software. We've got a full development team, you know open source plays into somewhat we do, but I guess what I'm saying is, the traditional demarcation between the vendor and the consumer in open source tends to be blurring. I don't remember in the keynote if they had, hey how many people have contributed to the code. That's something that we used to get, partially because we have splintered out this event a little as to, the goals, it's no longer the people building it. They've got lots of ways to do that and a lot of the drama's gone. We had for many years in OpenStack, it was who's going to own what distribution and who's driving what project and a lot of that's come out. We talked about the last couple of years, has it become boring in certain ways? But it's important, it's driving a lot of pieces and OpenStack should be here to stay for awhile. >> Yeah, it's part of the conversation. I love the term open infrastructure. We heard it once or twice. We'll see if that becomes a topic of conversation. Going back to Lisa-Marie Namphy's segment, I encourage people to check out your local OpenStack meet-up right? You'll find that other conversations are going on there, other than just OpenStack. This is an ecosystem, it interacts with the rest of the world. >> Yeah, and talk about that next generation, edge is really interesting, the conversation we had with Beth Cohen. Also talked to Lee Doyle from the analysts perspective. Lots of cool things happening with that next generation of technology. 5G's going to play into it. So, there's always the next next thing and OpenStack's doing a good job to, as a community, to be open, working with it and understanding that they don't need to be all things to all people, certain other pieces will pull in and we have that broad diverse ecosystem. >> Looks a, I'll go out and make a prediction, I think in five years, we're going to look back and we're going to say, actually, OpenStack driven plumbing is going to be driving a lot of the next generation to the internet. >> Yeah, I love that, actually I forget if it's two or three years ago, what I said was that, as Linux took a long time to kind of work its way into all the environments, OpenStack pieces will find its way there. Brian Stevens from Google said, "If it wasn't for open source, in general, "Linux specifically, we wouldn't have "any of the hyperscale guys today." All those companies leverage open source a bunch. We've heard whisperings that, not just the telecommunications, some very large global companies that are trying to figure out how OpenStack fit into it. Coming into the show, it was all the talk about, oh, Intel stopped its joint lab with Rackspace, HPE pulled its cloud out, there's some other hyperscale companies that are looking at OpenStack. It's reached a certain maturity and it will fit in a number of places. All right, well, hey John, we started the beginning of the week, it was cloudy and overcast, a little cool in Boston. The skies opened up, it's blue. I've loved having two weeks here in Boston. Really appreciate you joining me for the journey here. Here for the OpenStack Summit. >> Thanks for having me, it was fascinating. >> Thank you John. Want to thank our audience, and thank the whole team here in Boston, and the broad SiliconANGLE media team. This is our biggest week that we've ever had, as to how much content we're creating. So, thanks so much to everyone. Thanks for our community for watching. As anything, when they scale, let us know if there's things we need to fix or feedback that you have for us. For Stu Miniman, John Troyer, the whole team here in Boston and beyond, I want to thank you so much for watching theCUBE. Be sure to check out SiliconANGLE TV for all the upcoming events. Let us know where we should be at and feel free to reach to us with any comments, and thank you for watching theCUBE. (light techno music)

>> Narrator: Live, from Boston, Massachusetts. It's theCUBE, covering Red Hat Summit 2017. Brought to you by Red Hat. (light techno music) >> Welcome back to theCUBE's coverage of the Red Hat Summit here in beautiful Boston, Massachusetts. I am your host, Rebecca Knight. I'm here with my co-host, Dave Vellante. Joining us is Marco Bill-Peter. He is the vice president of customer experience and engagement at Red Hat. Thank you so much for joining us. >> Thank you for having me. >> So I want to start out by talking about your management philosophy, and your philosophy really of what you do. Because that is just so core to the Red Hat experience for customers. I noticed that you changed the name, it's no longer Customer Support, it is Customer Experience and Engagement. Do you want to talk a little bit about why you made that switch? >> Yeah, I think, well yes, it would be awesome, yeah. I mean the name reflects actually, in my opinion, also the business model from Red Hat, which is you take an open-source development model, you develop the products, you actually sell them as a subscription. But there's no license behind it, which is the amazing business model, right? That there's no lock-in, right? The customer can buy it, they can use it, if we don't provide the value, then shame on us, they can move on. And so that's where the customer experience has to be good. That they really see, hey, I got something from Red Hat, I'm coming back, I will renew this. And the engagement is as well, it's the part, one is like, experience was great and engagement is, we got to engage them, right? Because shame on us if we didn't engage a customer in during their journey during that year of subscription life that they have, or three-year, whatever it is. That is the, I think it's the business model, but it's also my philosophy, which is, I used to work for proprietary companies and running support or customer success functions. There you make the money on the license and the maintenance is, basically, I always call it janitorial services. This way our model is different, so that's why I also report through Paul Cormier, it's integrated in technologies. It's maybe not the philosophy, but it's our philosophy really, the customer, it's not a joke, it's customer is in the center. And if they are successful, yes, they will come back, they will buy more, they will renew. But it's an honest model. And so that's why we changed the name for various reasons. I also, we looked at other functions at Red Hat, and said, "Which one is really about customer experience?" And security, for example, is in my team, right? It's not just support, because security is a big element of our value that we provide. And so that's why we expanded the team, changed the name to kind of reflect that. >> You mention Paul Cormier and we're actually, he's going to be joining us later today too. And he was talking about how the design process is really led by customers in this new era of cloud computing. >> Marco: Yeah. >> Talk a little bit about what it's like to collaborate with customers in these products. >> Yeah, it's really good. I can give you an example from the innovation award winners this week. We have, like, for example, British Columbia, the government of British Columbia, and they start on this journey and they wanted to create this, I would say, exchange for partners that they have, companies to kind of provide some services and make it easier for them. And they started on a journey and it didn't go well. And shame on whoever was involved in that. But then we got involved. I was like, okay, that's what you're trying to solve. We got one of my guys actually flew out there, spent a few weeks out there. He was like, oh, this is the problem, let's build it differently. Then Ashesh Badani from the open-shift team got involved and we realized, okay, what they're trying to do is this, change the product, adjust it. There's one example from last year's innovation award winner. We had Betfair. It's a horse-race company in England. Same thing, they wanted to really innovate a data center in a complete, like, software-defined way. And having that collaboration with us directly and the upstream communities, but then also with partners, like in that case it was a software-defined network provider, to get involved and really build the solutions. It's a whole different way. And if you go back a few years when we just did Linux, that maybe didn't really happen because it was more Linux was driven by the community. And now I think it's honestly good to see because it's customers involved, there's still a lot of partners involved and there is a strong community and that whole thing working together is pretty cool to see. >> There's a saying that I like. It's customer satisfaction is one thing, customer loyalty is everything. And you live in a world where customer loyalty really is everything. Describe, you mentioned before your previous company, what's the innovation experience and total customer experience like now and how do you innovate versus the way a traditional company might innovate in customer experience? >> I think traditional companies, they innovate around, since it's a maintenance budget, we've got to save costs, right? That's their take. It's like, save costs, deflect cases, deflect customers basically, right? And our model is the opposite, right? If I start deflecting customers that's kind of the negative of engagement, right? So pushing back customers that actually they see value if they have interaction so that's where we look at it completely different. We innovate around, you know, like two years ago when we talked about we presented Red Hat insights, the tooling that basically out of our customer support cases we provide back to our customers a connection that they know, hey, this might happen. That's one piece that, you saw it probably at the keynote today, it's integrated in our products now, right? And so that's one piece we innovate around. Support is not seen as an afterthought. It's like, how do we build this into our tooling? So insights was a good example as an innovation. We did a lot of workflow changes, which sounds very technical but really to provide more value back to the customers. So it's called a knowledge center support approach that you really basically take what customers provide you, rephrase that and provide it back as a documentation. If you run into this situation, and it can be a support situation, but it can also an innovation situation, they want to build something new, you provide that back in the form of documentation customer form. >> One of the other things that's changed in the last two years is this explosion of artificial intelligence, some people call it cognitive, and we saw the kickoff video this morning how, and we talked about this a little bit a couple of years ago, how you're going to use data to improve customer experiences and now we're here. How are you using data and insights and analytics to improve the customer service? >> Analytics, I think, we started in a way in a traditional way, right? You have data and then you've got to figure out the data and then you kind of just create rules out of it. If this and this happen you do this. Call it AI, sounds cool, but basically it's rules matching. This happens, that. Now I think it's detecting the trends more automatically that's more done in, I would say, in more real AI. That's where we are. I would say the last year we spent more time figuring out, hey, how do we, instead of trying manually find the trends to actually automatically find them. And I think there is, I just gave an interview a few weeks in Japan where AI is a really hot topic, I think we're just scratching the surface. You saw it in autonomous driving but I think in support there's so much more to do in this area as well. >> When I asked you, you know, about juxtaposing Red Hat versus, say, a traditional software company it would seem like cutting costs was in conflict with innovating for customer experience but when I hear you speak about AI, is it possible there's a relationship between the two? That you can actually improve customer service and cut costs? >> Absolutely, but you want to do it in a good way. You want to do it in a way that it provides value back to the customer. If you do it an way, hey, we've cut out this and this things, then the customer just gets a lousy experience. That doesn't, I think that doesn't even work for a traditional company or proprietary company any more. That whole old, no, there's other companies that do autodeflection, right? But I think if you actually optimize the experience in a way that also the customer sees, hey, this is actually great value, right? If you just optimize things and the customer experience is great, you might actually create a situation where customer doesn't see value, right? Like in the old days, we had a lot of customers saying, hey, I never had the support case, why should I pay you guys? So, you know, obviously you can talk about that's great you didn't have a support case, but a customer paying a few millions and they only had one support case is a tough recovery. Today, not AI, but a lot of data is we can tell the customer, yeah, you had one support case, but look at all the tools you used in the customer portal, all the interactions you have. We have a nice dashboard we can present back to a customer. And, I'll give you, if you have a minute >> Yeah, please. a story quickly of a CTO from a bank that, a few years we met, and then he said, "Oh, Red Hat, you guys are good." That was in a bar. "You guys are good but, you know, I don't really need "your support, Marco. "My guys, they know how to do things." And so, I was like, okay. So in the evening I went back to the hotel, looked at the dashboard and then realized his story was maybe not as realistic. Next day, I see him again and show him the dashboard. And support was involved. There was documentation in use. I showed him back, I was like look at this, this is the value we provide you. And out of that came a whole different discussion, as in we do it annually now, and we looked at this data and he sees trends. He sees like, "Oh, my Latin America bank, "they still use this and this. "My North America team does that and that." And it's a whole different discussion. It's awesome, right, that they realize from the data we have there is a lot of value that he can change his operation. That's a short example. >> I want to talk to you about security. You mentioned this earlier in our conversation. The era of cloud computing is maturing and we are seeing now customers caring more about compliance and governance and management. What are the big concerns that you're hearing from customers? >> Obviously the big concern is still the traditional vulnerabilities, right? If there is a security hole, how do we fix it? How quickly fix it? Do we have the right data that we provide back as a customer realizes, is this a security hole I need to worry about or not. And that's what we do, we kind of focus on, we have a pretty large security team, I think, for the size we are because of the open-source model. So they're involved in a lot of the communities. So we provide fast response and we also provide response not just with a security fix but also with information about, hey, this is why you should worry or this is why you shouldn't worry. 'Cause sometimes the press creates this frenziness about, hey, pick your favorite name of a security hole, Heartbleed, et cetera. And for some customers it doesn't really matter because in their environment this is not a real scenario, right? And so we provide the patch, we provide data or documentation, but then also tooling that they can figure out are we exposed or not. That's one of the things. The other problem is in containers, right? You have these containers. You build the containers from everywhere. To actually realize, hey, is this container also compliant with security is a big topic. We just released, released, or we will release this week, it's not a secret, the container catalog, with actually a scoring that actually says, yes, this container is quality A, B. Kind of a freshness score. >> Ah, a ratings system. >> Yeah, rating. And this is a huge effort for every company and we do it as well, as in how do we keep these containers updated, right? Because you, if you build a container from application to middleware down to the operating system, you've got to worry about a lot of security. >> It's a fresh date. >> Yeah, it's like expiration date. >> A sell-by date. >> And that's what we do actually. We have an expiration date but depending on security hole, that just changes. >> So we were talking to John Hodgson who was at the keynote as well and he was telling us, and he mentioned this in the keynote, that he went from 17 developers in 2009 to 1,600 today. He was talking about that a lot of them are kids right out of college and we were talking about how you have to treat millennials differently and give them flexible time. And, Rebecca, you were talking about a new way to work at the beginning of our segments today. So how is that new way to work affect the customer experience and what are you guys doing in that regard? >> I mean obviously, like you say, right, there's a whole new generation coming and I actually think the new generation, they're actually a pretty sensitive customer experience. I think they're growing up in a different age of like digital age so, and social media as well, so actually I was worried that the new generation maybe, but I have to say, I think contrary, right? So that's good. So I don't think customer experience will suffer. What will change is, like, you can't have people, you know, we don't have it, but like call centers, if you have a little farm for everybody. That just ain't going to fly anymore, right? And so that's where we got to adjust. We don't do call centers, but we got to just adjust, like, how is the office done, where is it, and things like that. But it's, I think, I'm not too worried about that. >> And mobile is huge for you guys obviously, right? The mobile trend. And there's a lot of talk in Silicon Valley about, you know, what's next beyond mobile. How we, this is not how we're going to interface with our two thumbs in the future. It's going to be voice and, you have to be careful not to over-rotate either, right, because you could ruin the customer experience. Do you do that type of advanced, you know, research in total customer experience? >> Yeah, we do research. We actually also research how do they interact with us. You know, mobile is always a topic but our customers aren't engaging as mobile. You know, like it's, I mean-- >> You say they're not? >> They're not, no. >> They're out there. >> You know, our portal is all mobile enabled so you could go with it, but mostly it's still laptops, notebooks, et cetera, that they're using to engage us. So we haven't really invested a lot in that, but we invest in the digital experience, right, so make it easier, provide the tooling, don't force a customer to jump through, like, hoops to find something out. Give them the tool to find out. They want to self-solve a lot, right? Which goes back in the old discussion, is that deflection? But if a self-solve tool helps you, I think customers see, hey, this is value from Red Hat. >> If they can do it themselves, yeah. >> Marco: If they can and they can learn something, right? That part is good. >> Well thank you so much for joining us, Marco Bill-Peter, who is the vice-president, customer experience and engagement, at Red Hat. I'm Rebecca Knight, for Dave Vellante, thank you so much for joining us and we'll be back after this break. (light techno music)

live from Seattle Washington it's the cube covering dr. Kahn 2060 brought to you by dr. now you're your host John furrier and Brian Grace Lee okay welcome back and we are here live in Seattle Washington for Doc archon 2016 this is SiliconANGLE media is the cubes our flagship program and go out to the events and extract the signal from noise I'm John fourth by coach Brian Grace Lee our next guests Emil khandekar was the CEO of nuage networks part of Nokia welcome to the cube thank you to see you right so my doctor madness is really exploding in the developer community certainly galvanizing the digital transformation at the end of the day we always say in the cube the network's a bottleneck you got it and it's really about what's under the hood we just had talked to head biggest startup about storage you see a lot of disruption certainly and how infrastructures being technology being developed and make it more programmable yeah where is the story with the network where's that fit in what's the updates there because this is the day that's a critical piece of the pie indeed absolutely for ultimately for apps to be deployed on the network on any infrastructure as you said network has to get out of the way to create that developer efficiency to allow for applications to be deployed very quickly and how do you make that happen because containers are really being talked about we are the conference 4,000 plus people fantastic however CIOs know that they have not only the container technology to deal with but they have virtual eyes were closed and have had those words will eyes were closed for a long time they have bare metal servers that are supporting applications that probably will never move for a while so you have these very changing very dynamic environment and you have to understand how the networking can tie those things together seamlessly that's where we come in as much networks because your networks is essentially Sdn venture of Nokia and what we have at large networks what we've done is it's a modern Network policy based automation platform that allows for any workload whether it's a virtualized workload weather is a container workload whether it's a bare-metal server all to come together and be stitched automatically to allow for that application to be deployed quickly how is that different from other Sdn cloud architectures right you guys are doing within Nokia right so first and foremost what we have is it's a platform that we've built it's a virtualized services automation platform it's not a point solution for only the data center assets to be automated or only the SD when as it's called branch to be automated what it is it's is declarative policy-based automation platform that allows for which is open by the way completely open incorporates open source technologies and allows for all types of workloads if it's in and across data centers so virtualized workloads bare-metal workloads existing were closed as well as incorporates different hypervisor and cloud management system technologies and allows for connection to the branch and to the white area so you're saying it was built for cloud in mind is that what it was very much built for cloud enablement in mind making sure that we didn't forget on the way the existing environment and what you're seeing in the difference really between us and other platforms that are out there is essentially some of the SDN platforms are mono if you will and very narrow sliver they're based only for the data center and work on it on only on a mono hypervisor technology or some platforms are only looking at the SD van branch platform then were meant is such that you want and the cios want automation platform that is consistent across private on-prem as well as public resources and works across multiple hypervisor technologies and the big deal there is because you say point technologies but that that's code word for the older older approaches which was you know back in the mini-computer land days internet internet working you stand up some networks have policies and certainly policy based in a packet management and that was it that's right and you manage it within the data center that's right and that was adequate at that time so a vertically integrated stack in that simplified environment was adequate now now have such a variety of use cases you have got to deal with the cloud native applications you go to deal with the older applications but you need a consistent platform because ultimately you're looking to align ID to business needs and how do you align idea to business needs you do that by getting the networking out of the way and creating automation but again delivering operational simplification getting network out of the way I love that I you know a lot of CIOs are CEOs are seeing startups get into their industry you know if you're in pure and automobiles there's people that are trying to disrupt you you're in hotels everybody knows about those would what what is that you know they go great i can go hire some application developers i want to go faster yeah somebody says gilts get the network out of the way who are who are you selling to them what who is that person that says that sounds great but i still got to figure out routing and i got to figure out security i got to make it highly available who's the decision-maker in your world these days great great question Brian so a couple of points one these days any large enterprise that is looking to IT to create differentiation for their core business and if that means almost every large enterprises rely on IT heavily for their requirements as well as to create a differentiation for their own for product whatever it might be but they saw tomato its farmers pharmaceutical its retail those are indeed the customer that we are talking to because what they have is their environment has shifted as John said earlier it's not very simply a simple environment the environment will become complicated and to do that the networking requirements have become a very sophisticated as in you need application isolation you need multi-tenancy you need the ability to deploy policy very very quickly you need effortless governance of your security policies and compliance you need to be able to stitch all these were close together and also have a strategy for private and public cloud what that means is you need the technologies that were available to the top of the if you will only tier one service providers and bring that to the enterprise's and that's what we have done what use can you what use cases specifically around containers and policy do you see out there okay you specific yeah absolutely so I'll give you an example of a customer that was in OpenStack betfair is online betting and we have my cubes yeah that's right you had richard i say i believe and and what they have is they have 100 million plus transactions in a day on their infrastructure dare use cases continuous integration anything that did that scale at that scale and and so they're using the wash to basically create that automation for all their workloads that's one use case the other use cases we have a very large fortune five company that is looking to use the watch for automation of their virtualized machines so they have a cloud stack and they have kvm based hypervisor with virtual as virtual machines and they're using containers with measles and watch is the only platform that's allowing them to stitch these environments together seamlessly apply the same policy and same so you guys are a platform for a cloud native like environment with existing infrastructure you bring those together we bring that together in a highly automated way and then we allow for security very important security as in we prevent you know spread of mile there we die very quickly being able to enforce the policies we provide multi-tenancy doctors a huge security nightmare because just as much the benefits can interoperate with I mean the applications can be put in containers so good viruses exactly a naked scale and that's what our job is to make sure that how do you do it it doesn't do that because by able to very quickly enforce policies and Quarantine the workload so upon detection of malware our system gets a notification based on that notification we are able to because we have full view of all the workloads whether they are in private data center of public data center or in the branch we can very quickly then quickly effectively and surgically quarantine that workload because we know exactly where that workload is and we know exactly the policy to enforce this also helps by the way this system also helps by you know you get a security threat alert today it's it's a brute-force approach you go down and shut down a segment now with this policy based automation you go to the policy and you say I want only this application to not be allowed to do use this protocol and instantly that policy is deployed yeah I'm sort of picking up on two things you talk about sort of end and the platform for everywhere a lot of that's because we don't have boundaries anymore you know mobile phone changes a boundary that its executive office people are moving around so you need to be you need to have that sort of end end visibility you don't have segmentation like you used to and you talk about policy you know I need to be able as a developer to go network team I need you to sort of give me a service and then I just want to call it I don't want to have to call you I might be working at two at night we might have to change something on the fly like that's why the policy piece is so important is that right you are absolutely correct Brian and that is so critical because ultimately what ID is struggling with is how do they enforce the governance the security governance when application needs to be deployed I teak generally gets in the way not because they want to because they want to enforce certain security certain compliance policies and until now it has always been that manual process now with the security policy based infrastructure what they are able to do is they are able to put the policy once and they're insured that that policy is deployed seamlessly across all their workloads and so they have to audit the policy once and it's guaranteed provisioning which is error-free provisioning so it's huge in terms of the ability for enterprises to react to problems but also any changes the agility this brings the system brings to the table because ultimately you know without the network there is really no cloud and this is why we're hearing people talk about sec ops and sec DevOps and really security integrated without automation consistently automatable same thing every single time absolutely we have a one customer which is again a very large financial base in New York and their issue was exactly that in terms of being able to when I'm talking their CSO and the chief security officer the biggest thing that they took away from our policy based automation was not only the ability to able to stitch all these environments together seamlessly but being able to provide compliance being able to provide the automated policy infrastructure for all their birth was being able to really provide that application isolation those are big deals yeah very big deals for the CX those and csos Sonia we gotta wrap but I want to get your final thoughts on nuage and Nokia like you spend a minute talk about the distinction between the branding of the sea of nuage honestly the name is different I'll see Nokia is big you guys are part of that yes I explain to the people watching what you guys are about size scope the kind of engagement revenue or and how that compares and contrasts to nokia which we're part of but integers so we had a wholly-owned SD inventor of nokia and what we are focusing on is this policy based automation network automation for the data centers wide area and the branches nokia provides us tremendous sponsorship they are very much behind cash is and they recognize the value in our ability to serve the largest of the largest enterprise customers but also because of nokia we are able to address and are involved in very large service Reuters of projects so that's what helps us be involved they have huge scale so the way we work is we focus on over RND the innovation we bring to the table the community that we serve but nokia provides us and the reach yeah reporting the resources but you're wholly-owned meaning you run and run independently if you will we are yes but we are fully owned by nokia we just operate and focus on this it allows us to number customers can you share some data yeah and if we completed two years in the market and in two years we have over 60 plus customers we have over 200 deployments that we have completed pilot trials and deployments but we have 60 Plus very large service droid our customers cloud service providers for huge integrations and also the very big very big enterprise customers i named a couple of Fortune five companies but we are in retail we are in high tech we are in health care the new fabric your new fabric in these big high scale infrastructures that have diverse needs and diverse workloads there and have the need to stitch all that together in a cohesive fashion to build that automated fabric for a poseable almost right composable yeah to ultimately bring agility and align ID to the business I love the word composable infrastructure it really treats the infrastructure is programmable which is the nirvana make it an invisible make it get out of the way get out of the way but yet make it effortless I leave highly performing too so indeed heuer high-performance invisible that's right that's infrastructure as code and Neil thanks for sharing your insight here and the cube really appreciate nuage networks the CEO here on the cube live at da Kirk on I'm John Foley Brian Grace Lee we write back you're watching the cube

it's the cube covering vmworld 2015 brought to you by VMware and its ecosystem sponsors and now your host dave vellante welcome back to vmworld 2015 we're here at moscone north this is the cube the cube goes out we extract the signal from the noise Brian Gracie and I are really thrilled we have a jay patel here is the senior vice president of product development for VMware cloud services the future I love it yeah great to see you thanks for coming on the cube appreciated thanks so big event here we saw Monday the announcement of you know the hybrid cloud the strategy you laying out a lot of vision it's a lot of products that you can get today a lot that you know have a little road map to them but huge crowd would think the number is Robin told us yesterday 23,000 absolutely great energy so congratulations how do you feel feel great he'll be tired to feel great the excitement the momentum it's really great conversation with customers partners it's been a good VMO how have you spent your time here you do in customer meetings presentations no it's a lot of press interviews for presentations a lot of service provider meetings I'm also responsible with bill for the vCloud air network business mm-hmm it's refreshing to see that we've kind of struck the right balance between having our own service but also enabling our service provider community so so what so talk about the scope of your responsibility so I work for Bill father's I'm part of the vcard survey because air our cloud services be you we have two roles we are a proud provide ourselves which is vCloud air with products or presence in the North America amia Japan and the latest edition big Australia so in this case we're standing up a VMware operated cloud and we're running that we also provide all our IP that we build for a cloud we make that available to our service provider partners we have 4,000 service provider partners who leverage VMware technology to run a VMware power cloud so for us success is delivering on both fronts VMV cloud air as a business but also VMware power cloud and owning the public cloud market with vmware technology that's really my juicy responsible for for strategy the auto service you want P&L absolutely so with Bill I'm responsible for running the service ov powder and then my partner Jeff waters works for bill is responsible to be cloudier network where we take my software and monetize that to the ricotta and not work to help them power their car as well okay so you made native announcements this week maybe you could take us through those and in fact you know what why don't we back up can you kind of give us the journey of we caught the offering yeah absolutely so we caught there a two-year-old service when we first started you know North America predominantly with three data centers we extended to five we added our FedRAMP certified data centers so on one scale we started to provide the geographic reach we opened our UK data center than Germany joint venture with Softbank and then a joint venture with Telstra for Australia in Japan so we've got the geographic reach we were able to kind of serve directly 1880 some odd percent of the core cloud market so let's hear one cloud markets in the regions there we're going native in those market as a service provider we also then took our technology which is vcd which is we cloud director and we're just rolling out an announcement of our 80 product this quarter which is our cloudstack our on-demand platform our cloud platform make that available to our service provider partners and with the rest of the partners there 99 percent coverage of the global cloud market today so VMware today are pretty proud to say you can get a VMware cloud service anywhere in the world ninety-nine percent come so what about the reactions to what was announced this week you know I think from the tech weenies in us we love the remotion across on frame and public cloud that that applause of having the vm move from on prem live into a week where a couple of customers say you know what I've been asking that for three years it's good to see you finally delivering on that a hard technology problem but that was probably the most sexy announcement if you will from a technology perspective on the second side it's all about containers in in that example I'll ask Pat because I asked him to square the circle for me I don't if you heard this question whereas you would always here for instance joe tucci and paul gill senior talk about the advantage that the hyper scalars had because of homogeneity right yet you've said your strategy is to manage heterogeneous cloud environment so how do we do that and Pat's point was well for certain things we have to have homogeneity and I'm presuming that demo is one where you've got to have homogeneity to me the world is going to be about what I call compatibility right how do I make sure that I have a compatible cloud and it's going to be infrastructure compatibility and then more importantly application compatible if I cannot make my application workload portables how I'm going to move the workload to where I needed to run so that big technical challenges are making the workload portable at the infrastructure level because of the hypervisor and some of the work we've done on NSX etc we're making the infrastructure programmable and abstracting away the workload from the infrastructure we're decoupling the binding of the application and the infrastructure from the physical infrastructure and then the next step is how do I make it easily available on any cloud which is the work we're sorry important when you announced the offering four years ago you made a big deal that look we are going to share the IP with our ecosystem you really laid down that commit we got a lot of questions about it absolutely probably got some heat too but but how has that worked out how is it at all you know give us a passing grade I think we could do better then I'll be honest where we've done a great job as we've invested in the people we come up with something called a V cloud technology kit we've taken our best practices and how to build it we release vcd 80 which is a capability but our customers one that we motion capably tomorrow so that lag between us having something we demo to getting the hands of service provider we need a string that time so the work we need to put in place is really delivering and agility and the speed by which they can absorb this technology and stand up in their own cloud environment the area we've done better is we've made made possible new program called an MSP program I managed services provider program where smaller cloud provider doesn't want to stand up their own card can resell a week loud air service so it's it's I would say a good passing rate more work to be done yeah you know one of the big themes this week is one cloud it's any application anybody in one cloud that one cloud for you is not only you know vCloud air it's the vCloud air work helped us understand how big is the vCloud air network not just the number of partners because everybody's got lots of partners but you know put it in proportion how we know roughly how big vCloud air is that the VMware runs what is what is that partner network look like is it is it the typical 8020 model where eighty percent of that business is what does it look like how big is that so so I don't have the exact numbers to share but if I were to do a back of the napkin I'm going to speculate right I would say the vCloud air network plus B cloud air together it's probably bigger or as big as a or someone like the in a public cloud market it's a significant public cloud presence if we're not number two or number three from overall public cloud market spin so let's assume it's a 50 billion dollar market span I would say let's say you know Amazon's thirty percent of it the next twenty percent of it is a week loud air network+ vCloud air it's of that size and scale representative it's a major provider so in the mix today vCloud air is growing fast and it's a big portion but the numbers will always be I believe we cut our network will be a bigger portion than vCloud air at any given time but the whole pillars need to grow in paralyzer market is exploding am I correct that the differentiation really is kind of what you talked about monday is the ability to take that huge install base right that you have and enable it to do what the vision of the promise of the hybrid cloud has always been I mean it nobody else really does that I mean amazon refuses to do that right microsoft kind of has trying to do that you know so maybe can do that at some point and that's really your wheelhouse can you talk about the difference yes so what when we first started our first customers would kick our tires right and they would use it for dev tests and they say you know this stuff looks pretty good they said what if I take some of my vm that are not protected and protect them in avocado and we started to see dr really take off for that was kind of a killer use case now I T is being asked to really look at not building out any more data center spaces they're saying guys we cannot afford to build infrastructure and a natural choice for IT as they're starting to come into the age of cloud is who's the best choice i'm already using vmware on prem the starting to think about a data center extension use case or data center replacement use case they're looking at vcloud as a strategic loud so the exciting news for this week has been the number of customers saying in the next two years I want to be out of the data center business you're on my destination cloud let's solve those hybrid use cases to move data between VMs between the clouds is really what we're seeing the most exciting part so it's that ease of moving workloads is really exciting with so it's SiliconANGLE Wikibon we have some experience we have a you know the crowd chat relationship crowd chat forum is an app that's like it we used to run it and you know Nicole oh that's it by our own servers and it was a nightmare so we decided to go to the club we went to Amazon and our developers you know took some time to get it up there was painful right but once it was up and running it worked well so we have some experience with the various clouds and one of the things we found cuz people always does for SiliconANGLE and the Cuban is hey we should run in our cloud and when we go to investigate we find that certain things aren't there you know things like elastic Beanstalk aren't mature or you know other little things are just in beta etc I wonder if you could give us an indication of how mature any cloud air is from that standpoint you know and how you can you know expect what gives you confidence that you can compete with that pace that Amazon you know we often get dinged in terms of the breadth of capably amazon offer it is pretty impressive the rate at which they're innovating very impressive when you go back to the enterprise workloads and look at the customer use cases they probably 10 or 15 services that are critical the two big gaps we had was we didn't have a database service RDS we didn't have an RDS competitor out there we just announced sequel air this week we didn't have a good object service if you're starting to build something natively in the cloud in an object service the video start to bridge these key gaps with doing that today and Gartner has a metric whether measure the ayahs capability of each of the vendors I'm happy to say that if we were to benchmark today were ahead of Google right behind a jour to be capable wise a complete I aspect in in the what some people would call the pass piece of that that database as a service is part of the interpreters a service is that right so we're starting to add these application services it's my background come from Oracle Iran Oracle's middleware business we're starting to build both organically our services but more importantly vmware is a partner friendly company our customers want their best to breed on vs to work in the cloud so the service is like Jenkins for continuous integration as a service they want to use perforce if that's the source code management system to be available as a repository of recovery so our strategy is to enable our isp ecosystem make them available so you won't see everything coming from the VMware factory but the ecosystem will deliver best of class solutions and services on Macleod air both those are the mounts work is an interesting you know workload I mean you have demand from customers that mean certainly have a working order we were one of the first to say virtualize Oracle with VMware oh damn the torpedoes and work there were a lot of interest there unfortunately Oracle has the licensing practices it forces them and more in a dedicated environment so we can support Oracle but unfortunately because of the right system restriction we have to set them in a dedicated cloud you need specialized hardware to run oracle now that now they may relax that over time I mean it's been their practice in the past to do that all right i mean so you would expect it as there are customers today use two things either leave the data on Prem and take the web tier in the front end and then connect back to to database like Oracle sometimes they're just moving out at Oracle using a my sequel cluster to run their web scale websites open that's the choice though that larry has to make it a point of which the customer says okay if you want to lock me into the hole or call approach at the risk of losing my database business and then if that happens then Oracle will loosen up on those recover that's how that work will behave the customers will drive them you're ready to catch him with what do you what do you think so so if i looked back at amazon web services two years in only a couple of services a handful of them you guys are two years in you know handful of services but if i look at who their customers say it's it's directly focused on developers i mean they're going after developers the number of services they come out i mean it's 10 15 20 30 a year how do you who is your customer what's your developer story because right now i mean if i'm talking about moving VMS there's not a developer on the planet who cares about moving in vm how do you talk to a developer and get them to come to your so let's address both sides so we definitely our IT focus and we have an inside-out strategy when its IT driven it's about moving workloads from on-prem to cloud when you have a developer conversations about building that new applications the application environment in the enterprise is not just about green field but off for an application extension I want to add a mobile front end to my enterprise application in front of my sa fie my ERP system etc we've announced mobile backend service for example as a service on top of each other so we're starting to provide those selective use cases where our customers our enterprise IT developers if you will that's our target it's the enterprise IT developer who's looking to put a mobile front end was looking to build a digital experience that's integrated back into the into the use case and you saw the hybrid extension use case and we talked about is really what's driving this so developer story driven by a customer demand around mobile as a spearhead and building the rich set of service so we've been talking about this a little bit this week and we had a good discussion with Pat about it he's like look is the the the are the operations guys you know or the developers really want to become operations guys it's really a lot of your guys are really ops dev right supporting the developer community that's what you're trying to do is enable suppose it's both providing them the frameworks and the tools so in the new develop and it's not about building an application ground up its composing applications taking services and putting them together and we're offering those services but also giving them the tool chain to build new application than an agile way so I guess it has to be both right because you're trying to expand your tan absolutely new areas how do you how do you take advantage of all the assets in the Federation I mean we had rodney rogers on from virtustream he was talking about you know going after SI p and maybe you you don't need just one cloud you can use multiple you announced an object service but it's not based on emc we have an object service with emc as well right both why we have the clout you know the cloud foundry service you know I can I can install it but I can't get it why isn't the Federation stuff tighter why isn't it going faster I mean it is in the Federation you will see this accelerate and I think we if you look at the last year in terms of where progress has been made EMC object service available today our data protection built on albemarle so very strong leverage around that in the pillow case most of our customers use paths for private cloud that's been the design center we have a pws enterprises you the multi-tenant cloud that tends to be more a trial code so we're really about the enterprise customer and the enterprise customers saying hey give me a dedicated pass on frame or ricotta we support that well they're not asking for our multi-tenant kind of engine yard or Uhuru coo that's not our base that tends to be the smaller developer where again focused on the enterprise mark so what's a typical customer scenario like you guys you get a hardcore VMware customer and you start talking to them about the opportunities for hybrid cloud I'll give you three or four different one is to give you the breadth of them right the simple use case if it's an IT operations driven one it's driven around data center migration it's around data sent extension we have the likes of large University that that's looking to complete shut down our data center and move into that so that's kind of a data center use case we have Columbia sports or we're looking at how harley-davidson harley-davidson has the entire dealer network the point of sale system running on vCloud air we have likes of betfair they built an application is more cloud native that dynamically when you were betting and you're right at the last minute you need a spike up capacity their application seamlessly spawns into week our air takes capacity and delivers that that's a cloud native application that's built around that so we see the spread breath off from everything from data center use cases extension capacity on demand use cases all the way to dev test use cases dr to really cloud native applications in that span the spectrum with mobile being the newest addition we have farmers who starting to build a mobile app you so the my vmware ab that you're using today for vmworld that's running on vCloud air using our mbaise service so we're starting to get covered an entire spectrum of enterprise use cases today yeah I've and I you know just just as a piece of i mean i would i would say the ability for you guys to tell that story right now it comes across as being vmware centrum you know very vm sin infrastructure centric you're allowing the rest of the cloud industry to sort of define for you what that is so if that's really your story if your customers are saying look I have a ton of applications you may want to extend them to mobile but I want to want to move them for data center and that's a huge space you know we are forecast even out until 2016 only say that public cloud becomes a third there's a huge amount of enterprise applications that need to go somewhere you know move forward somehow and they need to know what how to help with that so I leave you with that if you have s ap as a workload and you can move the workload on frame or cloud and then extend the workload with mobile any great SI p to Salesforce this is direction where we're going you saw the keynote it had mobile front and center it showed a demo of a mobile app that's been this is clearly move VMware moving from infrastructure to application services extending the reach beyond just infrastructure capacity building that new digital application at Sunday's experience at Sanjay's background so AJ what last question what keeps you up at night not not personal stuff but business you know what keeps me up at night is really how do we scale this business even faster how do i meet the demand my challenges that moved from getting customers to scaling the service fast enough to support the customer the conversation had with some of my customers today they would want to move thousands of vm in the next six months how do we ramp up so quickly how do we support them how do we advise them how do we get this scale going so the challenge is going to be how do we scale quickly I mean that is the floodgates are starting to open up more critical you got demand on the one hand I'm competition the other you've got the scale and you of course you know you don't have that lock in at the top end of the apps layer so you know that game well absolutely she's got skill so his delivery is awesome a great conversation really appreciate you coming so much appreciate you meeting you thank you so much I keep rising everybody will be back to wrap vmworld 2015 right after this you